The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1945 - Eric Weinstein

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

00:00:14.000 Good to see you, my friend.

00:00:15.000 Hello, Joe.

00:00:16.000 So, we should tell everybody, this podcast came about from...

00:00:19.000 What time in the morning was it when I called you?

00:00:22.000 It might have been one of them late night ones, wasn't it?

00:00:25.000 Well, they all run together, but...

00:00:28.000 It was a late night, freak out, UFO conversation.

00:00:31.000 I was like, dude, we gotta do a podcast about this.

00:00:34.000 Because out of all of my friends that actually can understand physics and explain it, you comprehend it at a very high level.

00:00:43.000 So for things like this to be puzzling to you to the point where you actually want to talk about it.

00:00:47.000 Well, I don't want to talk about it because I got this one so wrong.

00:00:54.000 For years.

00:00:55.000 I mean, there is no trace of me talking about UFOs, I think, before three years ago, because I can't stand the topic.

00:01:01.000 Unlike the rest of you, this thing hits very differently.

00:01:04.000 Well, I should say, then, I've gone back and forth.

00:01:07.000 I abandoned it for a long time until I watched the Bob Lazar documentary. 0.87

00:01:12.000 When Jeremy Corbell made that Bob Lazar documentary, I was like, God damn it, they got me back in again. 0.88

00:01:18.000 They drew me back in again. 0.59

00:01:19.000 I don't think...

00:01:20.000 I don't know if there's ever footage of me saying the words Bob Lazar.

00:01:23.000 There it goes.

00:01:24.000 There you go.

00:01:25.000 I know.

00:01:27.000 But...

00:01:27.000 I would love to...

00:01:28.000 I would love to facilitate that dinner.

00:01:31.000 Oh, let's do...

00:01:31.000 You and Bob Lazar.

00:01:32.000 I don't know why...

00:01:33.000 You know, there's always this question about is Bob Lazar a physicist?

00:01:36.000 Was he trained at these places?

00:01:38.000 And I have to imagine that that's an easily resolvable question because...

00:01:44.000 You can tell whether somebody is a physicist pretty quickly.

00:01:48.000 That's why I can't.

00:01:50.000 You know what it's like?

00:01:51.000 It's like fake black belts.

00:01:53.000 There's a lot of fake black belts. 0.99

00:01:54.000 And if you're a real martial artist, you watch it and you go, what the fuck is this guy doing? 0.99

00:01:58.000 This is hilarious. 0.98

00:01:59.000 But some people who don't have any understanding of martial arts go, oh my god, this guy has a death touch.

00:02:05.000 He can just touch you behind the ear and you fall asleep.

00:02:07.000 And people believe it.

00:02:08.000 Yeah, I thought I would just skip everything and go right to the five-point exploding heart technique.

00:02:13.000 Yeah, so that is how I am when, you know, physicists.

00:02:17.000 I'm like, I don't know what you're saying.

00:02:18.000 I can't verify or deny.

00:02:21.000 But Bob Lazar is a very impressive person to talk to.

00:02:25.000 And what's really impressive to me is that he's had the same exact story since the 1980s.

00:02:32.000 And the new footage of these crafts that show them rotating 180 degrees before they take off is exactly how he described it.

00:02:43.000 How do you want to ease into this?

00:02:45.000 What got you curious about it? 0.79

00:02:48.000 If you had just decided that it was all horseshit, what changed your perspective?

00:02:53.000 Okay, this is a really weird and interesting question.

00:02:55.000 I had a different puzzle that I've been working on for years, which has to do with physics and is important to me in my work and what I care about, which is there is this crazy history between around 1953 and 1973 With an explosion of activity that sometimes goes under the name of the golden age of general relativity,

00:03:20.000 where general relativity was sort of put in final form in the teens by Einstein and also Marcel Grossman, who never gets the credit for the original papers, I think, on general relativity.

00:03:32.000 Isn't that always the case?

00:03:34.000 There's always like some guy behind the scenes that actually wrote for Shakespeare.

00:03:39.000 Einstein is the genius, but he had a mathematical friend whose father saved Einstein, I think got him the patent job.

00:03:47.000 And there's like a meeting called the Marcel Grossman meeting.

00:03:50.000 So he's a shadowy figure on the edge of the Einstein legend.

00:03:53.000 I don't think he deserves the credit Einstein did, but if you look at the first paper in General Relativity, Before Einstein says anything concrete, the first paper he says something vague.

00:04:04.000 That's 1913. And that's with Grossman.

00:04:06.000 The next paper he says something wrong.

00:04:08.000 He publishes the wrong equation.

00:04:09.000 Then he corrects the equation and it's incomplete because it doesn't have the cosmological constant.

00:04:14.000 And I think it's four papers before he has the equation that now dominates our understanding of the cosmos and the large.

00:04:22.000 Interesting.

00:04:23.000 And the...

00:04:27.000 So then it goes silent and effectively the smart kids are all following Bohr because Bohr and the quantum – Have so many open problems, whereas general relativity seems like pretty much a closed book.

00:04:42.000 And that's until 1953. And something very bizarre happens in 1953, which we can get to, but then there's 20 years of explosion in general relativity, which, you know, you've had Roger Penrose on your program before,

00:04:57.000 so he comes from that era, and Stephen Hawking was interior to that era.

00:05:02.000 Richard Feynman of all people was very active and gave lectures at Caltech.

00:05:09.000 So my entry point was that when I was a young guy at the University of Pennsylvania, When I'd come home to L.A. for break, I'd go out to Caltech, and I would park in Feynman or Gelman's parking spaces, which I just thought was the coolest thing in the world,

00:05:25.000 that these people, these gods, had little, you know, stones with their names stenciled on it.

00:05:30.000 So I would go park in Feynman's space, and I would go to the Caltech bookstore, and I found that there was something that was sold there that at the time I don't think was sold anywhere else, which was like the Feynman Lectures on Gravitation, 1962 to 63. And they were It was like,

00:05:47.000 Feynman says, I don't know how Einstein did his thing, but imagine that you didn't have the insight that this was all geometric based on a guy named Bernard Riemann's notion of what differential geometry is, sort of the smooth surface geometry of curvature.

00:06:02.000 And Feynman says, let's just imagine this was an ordinary field theory.

00:06:05.000 Am I, Richard Feynman, smart enough to figure out the geometry just proceeding as if I was a particle theorist?

00:06:13.000 And this is a very strange and interesting, wonderful thing to do.

00:06:16.000 And these notes are fantastic.

00:06:19.000 My question is, what happened between 1953 and 1973?

00:06:24.000 Because the reason that I'm in part really animated right now is that this month, February 1st of 2023, is the exact 50th year anniversary of the stagnation In particle theory, as measured by the movement from the standard model.

00:06:42.000 So the standard model in general relativity are the two basic theories, the theory of the very small, the theory of the very large.

00:06:49.000 They're incompatible in a certain level, but they're very similar looking at a different level.

00:06:53.000 So this has been driving people crazy.

00:06:55.000 And I say, you know, in 1973, Crocodile Rock was the number one song, or the entire yellow ribbon around the old oak tree.

00:07:04.000 Imagine that song being at the top of the pops For 50 years with no respite.

00:07:10.000 That's how impressive this is, right?

00:07:12.000 That's a great comparison.

00:07:15.000 That's a great comparison.

00:07:16.000 Right, so just imagine the platform shoes and feet going up above them.

00:07:18.000 So it doesn't make any sense.

00:07:19.000 It doesn't make any sense.

00:07:21.000 How did the world's smartest community stagnate this badly?

00:07:38.000 And for almost 20 years, until 1947, we couldn't compute with this first quantum field theory, quantum electrodynamics, otherwise known as QED. And suddenly, in 1947, we held a conference at Shelter Island in the tip of Long Island.

00:07:56.000 And they didn't invite the old people as much as they invited the young people coming after the success of the Manhattan Project. 0.55

00:08:02.000 Now, the Manhattan Project gets remembered by us as a physics project, but it was really engineering because the theorists were unable to fight their way out of a paper bag.

00:08:11.000 So we gave them an engineering project and they completely crushed it, right?

00:08:15.000 They gave us these atomic weapons.

00:08:17.000 So we had a pretty good idea of who was smart, and people like Feynman were smart. 0.97

00:08:21.000 So we held this weird, cheap conference at Shelter Island at the Rams Head Inn, and Feynman figured out that, along with a guy named Julian Schwinger and another guy named Tomonaga in Japan, that there was a stupid error, like a really boneheaded,

00:08:37.000 you know, I can't find my keys for 20 years, and then you realize, oh, they're in my pocket.

00:08:42.000 So this thing had to do with the fact that there were two concepts of mass.

00:08:47.000 For the electron.

00:08:48.000 And if you imagine that this table between us was ice, right?

00:08:54.000 And I pushed this cup, we would know about how much the mass of this cup was based on how it responded to force.

00:09:04.000 But what if I start putting friction?

00:09:05.000 Now it's wood.

00:09:06.000 It appears to be slightly more massive because it takes more force to drag a cup across wood than it does across ice because of the coefficient of friction.

00:09:15.000 That number is the effective mass or the dressed mass.

00:09:19.000 And we thought that that was the real mass.

00:09:21.000 And we had those two numbers set equal.

00:09:23.000 And when we realized that they weren't the same number, suddenly the theory yielded.

00:09:28.000 So it was a 20-year stagnation.

00:09:31.000 Wow.

00:09:47.000 No, things mostly haven't moved.

00:09:49.000 Really?

00:09:50.000 Yeah.

00:09:50.000 We all have this sense of, oh, my God, the dizzying pace of progress.

00:09:54.000 Right.

00:09:54.000 And then I always set this problem this way.

00:09:57.000 I say, if you subtract the screens in our lives, so there are phones, the flat screen TVs, all that stuff, and you forget about style issues because style changes.

00:10:07.000 How do you know you're not in 1973?

00:10:09.000 More or less, you know, we don't have George Jetson stuff everywhere.

00:10:13.000 Style would be a big one.

00:10:15.000 Yeah, style would be.

00:10:15.000 But just in terms of technology, like, the distance between 1952, where we have the first thermonuclear device in the test known as Ivy Mike, and 1902, before we even have powered flight, is like 10,000 years.

00:10:28.000 It's enormous.

00:10:29.000 Right.

00:10:30.000 The difference between 1973 and 2023 is mostly due to computers.

00:10:36.000 Right.

00:10:37.000 Computers and communication are the two really big expanding things.

00:10:40.000 I'm not saying you don't have quadcopters.

00:10:43.000 Right.

00:10:44.000 But because we interact with that primarily, we think of things as being far more advanced.

00:10:49.000 Right.

00:10:49.000 On a broad scale.

00:10:51.000 Well, this is the issue.

00:10:52.000 The way I used to say it is it was between electrons and atoms.

00:10:56.000 The world of atoms stagnated.

00:10:58.000 The world of electrons stagnated.

00:11:00.000 It went crazy.

00:11:02.000 It's actually a very good point, too, in terms of one of the major industries that has to improve every year is automobiles.

00:11:10.000 Right.

00:11:11.000 And the problem with that is they're so good. 0.91

00:11:14.000 Like, if you get to, like, a Tesla level of performance, the idea that you're going to get faster than that is fucking insane.

00:11:20.000 You don't want to necessarily get fast. 0.99

00:11:22.000 The idea that you could just go to a store and buy a car that will go zero to 60 in two seconds is fucking nuts, man. 0.99

00:11:30.000 I know. 1.00

00:11:31.000 It's nuts.

00:11:33.000 Well, it's mostly a battery and a computer claiming to be a car.

00:11:36.000 Exactly.

00:11:37.000 What I was going to say is they're all reliant on computers now.

00:11:41.000 Yeah.

00:11:41.000 Like, I really like old cars.

00:11:42.000 I really like old- Where you can tinker.

00:11:44.000 Yeah.

00:11:44.000 But it's also, I just like that there's a direct connection mechanically.

00:11:48.000 You feel a mechanical connection to the gears and the steering.

00:11:52.000 There's something about them that's very satisfying.

00:11:54.000 They don't even have to be fast.

00:11:56.000 They don't have to move fast.

00:11:57.000 Like, driving around normally- Right.

00:11:58.000 It's like driving a ride.

00:11:59.000 It's very fun.

00:12:01.000 Whereas with a Tesla, it's just you know that if you turn the wheel, it'll turn the actual wheels that are on the road, but you don't feel them.

00:12:12.000 You don't feel that thing.

00:12:13.000 You're just turning a thing and a thing happens.

00:12:15.000 You're not directly connected to it.

00:12:17.000 It's all computers.

00:12:18.000 All the new cars rely on computers.

00:12:21.000 If you listen to John Mayer, for example, talking about what's wrong with modeling amplifiers, You know, you can get $100,000 worth of equipment in one of these little boxes, but a tube amp is hard to replace because there's something special in analog technology of a different time,

00:12:39.000 where you pass current through a pickup, and that magnet, you know, there's magic that happens between wood and magnets and steel, right?

00:12:47.000 All this kind of stuff.

00:12:48.000 I appreciate an automatic transmission as a thing of beauty, but I'd rather drive a stick still.

00:12:54.000 Yeah.

00:12:55.000 You don't want to drive when in traffic, but if it's just you enjoying driving, there's nothing like a stick shift.

00:13:02.000 This is where they lose the focus with computers.

00:13:06.000 It's like you're taking away one of the best things about driving, which is the enjoyment of driving, and you're replacing it with tenths of a second.

00:13:15.000 That no one's going to notice, and you really shouldn't notice anyway, because they're all ridiculously fast.

00:13:20.000 Yeah, but this train will not slow down.

00:13:24.000 Well, I get it, but people need to understand, just from a human perspective, you will enjoy driving a manual car more.

00:13:33.000 If you have any life left in you.

00:13:35.000 Tight suspension. 0.97

00:13:36.000 If you have any fucking spark left in you, when you're on a windy road, you want to go... 0.94

00:13:42.000 Even if you're not driving fast, it's so much more fun. 0.95

00:13:45.000 If I'm not mistaken, the Rolls-Royce had to put sound back in because they'd subtracted so much sound through their patented insulation system.

00:13:53.000 BMW's done that as well.

00:13:54.000 Yeah, it's not safe.

00:13:56.000 Well, now you're like, you're going to simulate?

00:13:59.000 It's gross.

00:14:00.000 I know.

00:14:00.000 They're talking about doing that for Ferraris because they're going to make an EV Ferrari.

00:14:04.000 So if they made an electrical Ferrari, they're talking about making fake Ferrari noises, which is just an atrocious thing to come out of Italy.

00:14:13.000 Stop it.

00:14:14.000 Just stop it. 1.00

00:14:16.000 What the fuck is... 1.00

00:14:16.000 You guys are all passion and whine and sound. 1.00

00:14:20.000 A Ferrari is supposed to be like this high revving...

00:14:25.000 There's something about that as it's happening that excites you.

00:14:29.000 Right.

00:14:29.000 It's music, it's dance, it's love, it's...

00:14:33.000 It's real!

00:14:36.000 You can't have fake Ferrari sounds.

00:14:39.000 Have you had this with Elon?

00:14:39.000 No.

00:14:39.000 Okay.

00:14:40.000 No, but Elon's cars don't make any sound.

00:14:41.000 I love it.

00:14:42.000 Well, I get terrified of it because they sneak up behind me.

00:14:45.000 That is an issue.

00:14:46.000 Yeah.

00:14:46.000 That is an issue.

00:14:47.000 Okay, but so getting back to the whole UFO thing and the progress...

00:14:52.000 We don't realize what percentage of life was determined by physics, right?

00:14:57.000 So, for example, Wi-Fi and all the communication is the electromagnetic spectrum, including radio waves.

00:15:03.000 We don't realize the semiconductor, which created the logic gate.

00:15:09.000 All we did was scale it up, and now it's chat GPT. The number of things that have changed the world, whether it's the World Wide Web coming out of CERN, Physics is really what has moved the dial, including molecular biology,

00:15:25.000 founded by physicists, more or less.

00:15:27.000 So when you lose this community, you don't understand. 1.00

00:15:31.000 Like, you think, okay, that's some egghead shit. 0.99

00:15:33.000 It isn't. 0.99

00:15:34.000 Physics is basically progress.

00:15:37.000 Physics created the modern economy.

00:15:39.000 And to have a 50-year stagnation, particularly—and I want to draw a really important contrast—1968 was the year we discovered the quark.

00:15:51.000 So in every proton, there are three valence quarks, two of them named up, one of them named down.

00:15:56.000 In a neutron, it's two downs and one up.

00:15:59.000 So that's how we—neutrons and protons are not fundamental.

00:16:03.000 When we found the neutron, it was in 1932. So my aunt, Judy, shout out to Aunt Judy in Philadelphia, is older than the neutron.

00:16:12.000 And the neutron doomed us as a species.

00:16:15.000 Like that one discovery more or less indicated that if we do not leave this world, we will die here in short order.

00:16:22.000 Because if you throw a proton at a very heavy nucleus, It doesn't crash into the nucleus.

00:16:30.000 You've got all these protons in the center that are all positively charged and this one guy is coming in, you know, at high speed and all these massive protons say, you know, like charges repel and this thing just runs away like a scaredy cat.

00:16:44.000 A neutron is almost a proton.

00:16:46.000 It's basically the same kind of a deal but with no charge.

00:16:50.000 So it doesn't understand that you're telling it, you know, go back, danger.

00:16:55.000 And it just screams in and it can split these nuclei, releasing all of this energy.

00:17:01.000 And then you get these chain reactions with the neutrons radiating out.

00:17:04.000 So in 1932, we discover the neutron.

00:17:08.000 I think it was by 38, this woman named Lise Meitner figures out the chain reaction.

00:17:14.000 By 42, 10 years after the discovery of the neutron, Enrico Fermi and something called Chicago Pile 1, CP1, crazily does a controlled chain reaction under the bleachers of the University of Chicago, shout out to the University of Chicago Stadium,

00:17:30.000 which could have obliterated the city of Chicago if it had gone critical, right?

00:17:33.000 I mean, if it had just run away.

00:17:35.000 Nobody knew what was going to happen.

00:17:37.000 So we trusted the city of Chicago to Enrico Fermi's calculation.

00:17:42.000 By 45, you get Trinity and the two bombs we drop on Japan. 0.68

00:17:47.000 And then in 1952, game over, you have Ivy Mike and the first thermonuclear weapon based on the Teller-Ulam design, which uses the fission bomb just for foreplay as the detonator.

00:18:01.000 That causes the waves to go out and radiate out against the shell.

00:18:05.000 And I think we still don't talk exactly how we do it.

00:18:07.000 And then they bounce off and they compress this rod and core.

00:18:10.000 And then you get fusion rather than fission.

00:18:12.000 And suddenly you're harnessing the power of the sun.

00:18:15.000 And that's when you don't even worry about ducking cover because thermonuclear is such a leap above fission devices.

00:18:23.000 And that's such a leap above conventional devices.

00:18:26.000 That it takes 20 years for us to become God, right?

00:18:30.000 And this power we can't control.

00:18:35.000 We need to worry about physics because you never know when somebody's going to discover a neutron.

00:18:41.000 In other words, a high-leverage object, just like the semiconductor was a high-leverage object.

00:18:46.000 The World Wide Web in the early 90s was the high-leverage object.

00:18:50.000 Anything that comes out of physics...

00:18:51.000 Oh, and Francis Crick, physicist discovering the three-dimensional structure of DNA and then the transfer hypothesis where you translate DNA into messenger RNA, which gets red in ribosomes.

00:19:05.000 All of these things changed the world and effectively gave us so much power that we don't know how to control it.

00:19:14.000 And we were so scared for 70 years because it's six months between 1952 and 53 where we discover both the atom and the cell and how they work in terms of this forbidden knowledge.

00:19:29.000 We were so scared that we behaved ourselves.

00:19:33.000 And now we're not scared.

00:19:34.000 We're like Slava Ukraine, just whatever.

00:19:38.000 Yeah, we've got Putin.

00:19:40.000 We're going to back him into a corner.

00:19:42.000 We should probably say that this is actually the day that we're talking about.

00:19:46.000 This is the day that Putin just backed out of the nuclear treaty.

00:19:52.000 Publicly.

00:19:53.000 Which is not good.

00:19:54.000 With Joe Biden going to Kiev and pledging his undying love to...

00:20:00.000 And I'm going to say this, which is very painful.

00:20:04.000 I think Zelensky is a complete menace.

00:20:07.000 Why do you think that?

00:20:09.000 He's romantic.

00:20:11.000 He's telegenic.

00:20:12.000 He's brave.

00:20:15.000 We can talk about whether he got set up in a coup or who he really is, whether he was an actor, etc., etc., But at some point, I think I heard him, I had to go back to like the Russian and Ukrainian speeches in order to try to,

00:20:30.000 I don't speak much Russian, I don't speak any Ukrainian, but they're closely related languages.

00:20:34.000 And he calls for like preventive strikes.

00:20:39.000 I'm like, huh?

00:20:41.000 This was a while ago.

00:20:43.000 I thought, why is this person allowed to address Congress?

00:20:49.000 You have somebody who – and I want to be very clear about this.

00:20:55.000 I really find it disgusting what Vladimir Putin did invading Ukraine.

00:21:02.000 But if you look historically at the killing and the borders of Eastern and Central Europe, they have gone back and forth Like, nobody's business.

00:21:13.000 When you ask somebody like me, an American Ashkenazi Jew, where did your family come from?

00:21:17.000 You always get the same weird response.

00:21:19.000 It's like, oh, it was a part of Belarusia that went back and forth between Poland, Ukraine, Moldova, Lithuania, because it's fluid, right?

00:21:29.000 And so when we say we respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine, We were fighting right now in Lvov, like the Ukrainians were fighting in Lvov, eight seconds by hypersonic missile from Article V territory since 1999 in Poland. 0.79

00:21:46.000 And I realized how crazy we got.

00:21:50.000 I was in Providence, Rhode Island with my son and I get this alert on my phone and it says, two people are dead in Poland with a presumptive strike by a Russian missile.

00:22:04.000 I'm thinking, did I read two Polish people dead in an Article 5 full NATO member since 1999?

00:22:16.000 We're good to go.

00:22:45.000 On some of the world's bloodiest, most disgusting, most beautiful land, you know?

00:22:50.000 Have you ever been to Ukraine?

00:22:52.000 No.

00:22:53.000 So my family basically is scattered, you know, was scattered throughout the shtetls of Ukraine.

00:22:58.000 And I've been over there in 89. We Americans do not understand Central and Eastern Europe, period, the end.

00:23:09.000 And for us to be making these commitments and not understanding how Russians think and how Ukrainians think and how Poles think and how the fighting works, I don't think we know what we're doing.

00:23:22.000 I think we're creating a doomsday machine.

00:23:24.000 And I – the reason that we – it's not like Zelensky isn't wronged by Putin.

00:23:30.000 It's not like he's not charismatic.

00:23:34.000 He has one of the greatest Bruce Willis lines of all time.

00:23:37.000 When we ask to evacuate him, he says, I need ammunition, not a ride.

00:23:42.000 That thing makes us – Yeah.

00:23:45.000 I want that.

00:23:46.000 There's like house-to-house fighting, the way all the World War II enthusiasts think.

00:23:51.000 They tend not to think about Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

00:23:53.000 They like the tactical stuff with all the, you know, which bridge got taken out over which river and how did we do this and that.

00:23:59.000 So it's very romantic to people who are like World War II addicts.

00:24:04.000 We do not realize how deep the trouble we're courting is.

00:24:08.000 And I don't think we realize how dangerous it is.

00:24:11.000 If we are going to, every time there's a border dispute...

00:24:15.000 Go to a thermonuclear standoff.

00:24:19.000 It's just Russian roulette with smaller and smaller numbers of empty chambers.

00:24:25.000 And I don't know what this is.

00:24:27.000 I don't know whether we have 30 years to play this game or three or three months.

00:24:31.000 But I learned that day last year in 2022, nobody around me in Providence, Rhode Island was reacting.

00:24:41.000 Everybody was just going about.

00:24:42.000 It was like a normal day.

00:24:46.000 I'm increasingly, Joe, believing that I am sane and that the world is crazy.

00:24:52.000 And normally I take that as a cue that maybe I need to get some sleep.

00:24:56.000 No, I think we're actually just going crazy.

00:24:58.000 I think that those of us who actually get how risky this is need to speak up because it's not fun.

00:25:03.000 The entire apparatus will tell you that you're soft on Putin and you're an appeasing Chamberlain wannabe. 0.99

00:25:11.000 And it's like bullshit. 0.97

00:25:12.000 Right now, you don't realize in 2004, we let Latvia and Lithuania into NATO membership. 0.99

00:25:20.000 And I remember thinking at the time, what the hell are we doing?

00:25:23.000 It's not like I don't understand that we want to protect them.

00:25:26.000 It's not like I don't understand that you want to say that they're independent nations.

00:25:29.000 But these were former Soviet republics.

00:25:32.000 And there's two ways of thinking about it.

00:25:34.000 You can put on one set of glasses and say, well, these are nations that get to decide what they want and who's to tell them what to do.

00:25:40.000 And then there's another thing called spheres of influence, where it's like, that's the Russian sphere of influence.

00:25:44.000 If you are not playing with both of these sets of lenses, you're not playing the game.

00:25:49.000 And the number of people who just have one set of these glasses on They're only seeing the infrared or they're only seeing the ultraviolet.

00:25:56.000 It's like, no, you need to oscillate back and forth and understand what you're doing.

00:26:00.000 So I think Zelensky, and I'm scared to say this because I know I'm going to get just nothing but hate We created a situation by pretending that we didn't understand the spheres of influence glasses.

00:26:12.000 We very well understand the sovereignty glasses.

00:26:16.000 And we are now creating a doomsday machine that we do not understand.

00:26:20.000 And the world is going to go multipolar, and we don't have the skill to play this game, period.

00:26:25.000 Do you think part of the problem is that the amount of people that have actually gone to war in this country, first of all, there's people that are in the army or in all the armed forces,

00:26:40.000 they're volunteers.

00:26:41.000 Everyone volunteers.

00:26:42.000 There's no draft.

00:26:43.000 There's no national requirement to join the military like there is in Israel and like there is in South Korea and many other countries.

00:26:54.000 The people that have experience with the war are the ones that are telling you this is dangerous.

00:26:58.000 People like yourself are telling us this is dangerous.

00:27:00.000 But to the rest of the world, to the rest of this country, there's a real problem with day-to-day existence because day-to-day existence is tricky.

00:27:08.000 And it gives you parameters which you exist in, but they're not real.

00:27:12.000 They're not real.

00:27:13.000 They're only real right now.

00:27:15.000 And if you invite war, you now are like these videos that you can watch.

00:27:20.000 I don't know if you're on Telegram. 0.97

00:27:23.000 There are some fucking videos from this war on, like, in the woods, ground fighting. 0.98

00:27:29.000 I've seen them. 1.00

00:27:29.000 Heavy, heavy shit. 1.00

00:27:32.000 And I don't think people that show up every day at the same Starbucks and then get on the highway and go to their office and repeat every fucking day, I don't think they think of that as a real option in the world. 1.00

00:27:45.000 But it is. 0.92

00:27:46.000 Think of daily life as ketamine.

00:27:48.000 Okay.

00:27:49.000 So you've got people walking around completely dissociated because everything in their daily environment tells them to pick up the dry cleaning.

00:27:57.000 Right.

00:27:58.000 And, you know, oh.

00:28:00.000 Everything's fine.

00:28:02.000 What's on Netflix?

00:28:03.000 Yeah.

00:28:05.000 At least in the Cuban Missile Crisis, my father was driving across country.

00:28:09.000 I said, you knew it was the...

00:28:11.000 He said, everybody knew it was the Cuban Missile Crisis.

00:28:13.000 Every single town that he drove through, he would stop and the TV would be on.

00:28:17.000 People were talking about it, right?

00:28:19.000 We are in some world where...

00:28:22.000 And I think that we have to just talk about the fact that the United States is attacking...

00:28:28.000 We're good to go. 0.96

00:28:52.000 We have no clue how to resolve something as dumb as the Epstein—to whom did Ghislaine traffic? 0.97

00:29:01.000 I don't know. 0.98

00:29:02.000 Well, can't find it.

00:29:03.000 Sorry.

00:29:03.000 Bye.

00:29:04.000 So this is what's causing, in part, our friends to go crazy.

00:29:10.000 Several years ago, Sam Harris had good input.

00:29:14.000 Jordan Peterson had good input.

00:29:17.000 Brett Weinstein had good input.

00:29:20.000 Most of them, I don't think, have figured out that they're starved for information, and I'm going to say something very heterodox to the heterodoxy.

00:29:30.000 The heterodoxy was never meant to take over for the orthodoxy.

00:29:34.000 The orthodoxy was something that needed correction.

00:29:37.000 The purpose of the heterodoxy is to say, you're 12 degrees off, you're 3 degrees off.

00:29:42.000 What do you do when you're like 168 degrees off?

00:29:47.000 The fine-tuning that heterodoxy can do is not sufficient to correct the ship.

00:29:53.000 What's happening to us?

00:29:54.000 I said this to Sam at a dinner with Dave Rubin right before Trump took over.

00:29:58.000 I said, Sam, if you don't take a different approach to Trump, he's going to blow out your circuits.

00:30:04.000 He said, what do you mean?

00:30:05.000 I said, well, for every ambiguous thing that you can't resolve with Trump, Raise two to that power.

00:30:13.000 So if he puts three ambiguities in a series, you have two to the third possibilities of what could be true.

00:30:21.000 That's eight.

00:30:23.000 He can create a decision tree that explodes faster than you, Sam Harris, can think.

00:30:29.000 Right?

00:30:30.000 There's no way you can get two to the fourth possibilities on a decision tree.

00:30:35.000 I don't think he understood the perspective.

00:30:38.000 And so what happened was we were all swimming in this world where nobody could tell which end was up.

00:30:42.000 Nobody can resolve anything.

00:30:44.000 And I think a lot of this has to do...

00:30:46.000 Not sure I understand what you were just saying there.

00:30:48.000 Okay.

00:30:49.000 This decision tree thing, that Sam, he was going to...

00:30:53.000 Explain that?

00:30:54.000 So let's imagine, for example, that I'm staying at a local hotel.

00:30:57.000 Okay.

00:30:58.000 And you don't know whether I'm staying at the Hyatt or the Four Seasons.

00:31:01.000 Okay.

00:31:01.000 And you also can't figure out whether I'm leaving at 1 o'clock or at 2 o'clock.

00:31:07.000 And you don't know whether I'm going to be arriving by a white Prius or a black Escalade.

00:31:18.000 You now have too many possibilities as to, well, the drive time for those two hotels is different.

00:31:24.000 I don't know which car I'm looking for.

00:31:26.000 There are eight possibilities now of what could actually be happening because those are all independent.

00:31:31.000 Right.

00:31:32.000 When Trump created ambiguities, or now the Biden group is creating ambiguities by not telling us what's actually going on, you don't know how serious this East Palestine-Ohio spill is.

00:31:44.000 Is this something that's going to burn off pretty easily, or is this getting into the corn crop that's going to be found in all processed food?

00:31:50.000 I don't know.

00:31:50.000 I don't know how much— It's a very good question.

00:31:52.000 Right?

00:31:52.000 Okay.

00:31:53.000 So just every day, you're being assaulted by completely unnecessary ambiguities.

00:32:01.000 But why then the Trump thing?

00:32:05.000 Why would his derangement towards Trump?

00:32:09.000 Sam made one terrible call with Trump.

00:32:13.000 He said that he was the evil Chauncey Gardner, like a simpleton, like Mr. Magoo, just happens to wander into the Oval Office as the first president with zero government experience, including the armed services. 1.00

00:32:27.000 Bullshit. 1.00

00:32:29.000 Trump may be a savant, but he was brilliant. 1.00

00:32:33.000 Absolutely brilliant.

00:32:34.000 If you do not give that devil its due, you're toast. 0.99

00:32:37.000 Yeah, it's silly to say that he's dumb because he's different. 0.99

00:32:41.000 He says some dumb stuff sometimes, but oftentimes he's talking off the top of his head. 0.99

00:32:46.000 Like, maybe use some bleach, clean it out. 0.96

00:32:49.000 Remember that?

00:32:50.000 Exactly.

00:32:51.000 But meanwhile, one of the things that he said about using light, actually, they came up with a process of doing that.

00:32:59.000 That was an actual procedure that they would use, where they use ultraviolet light inside a person's lungs and kill the COVID virus.

00:33:06.000 This was like a concept that they were actually putting forth as being possible.

00:33:10.000 So what he said, even though it sounded ridiculous, like, get light into the body, it actually was right.

00:33:18.000 But that's the thing.

00:33:18.000 So then a bunch of people said, okay, I'm going to put a minus sign in front of Trump.

00:33:22.000 Everything that he says is just wrong.

00:33:24.000 They can't do that.

00:33:25.000 Well, they do this to Alex Jones, they do this to James O'Keefe, and they'll do it to you and me.

00:33:29.000 They've definitely done it to me.

00:33:30.000 They've definitely done it to you, too.

00:33:32.000 It's a thing that people do. 0.97

00:33:33.000 Look, just because someone – look, I say dumb things all the time, constantly. 0.93

00:33:38.000 My kids make fun of me. 0.86

00:33:39.000 I never do. 0.98

00:33:40.000 I am always saying dumb things. 0.85

00:33:42.000 Because I talk sometimes before I totally think. 0.96

00:33:44.000 But then I go, oh wait a minute, that doesn't make sense.

00:33:46.000 And then I'll correct it.

00:33:48.000 Like I'm trying not to be married to my thoughts.

00:33:50.000 There's a real problem.

00:33:51.000 You're great at this, by the way. 1.00

00:33:52.000 There's a real problem because I recognize my fucking shortcomings. 0.99

00:33:56.000 Me too. 0.99

00:33:57.000 I know that I'm scattered, okay, because I do a lot of different things.

00:34:01.000 And I'm thinking about things that are totally unnecessary, like professional pool matches.

00:34:05.000 Like I think about that all the time.

00:34:07.000 Like, how did he get positioned on that six ball?

00:34:08.000 It's crazy.

00:34:09.000 And I'll think about that when I'm driving my car.

00:34:11.000 So I'm a scatterbrain in a lot of ways.

00:34:13.000 So sometimes when I'm talking, I'm there, but I'm not fully formed in these thoughts.

00:34:20.000 I'm trying to talk them out in real time.

00:34:22.000 And you get clumsy with that.

00:34:26.000 Concentrate on something you get really good at it and if you concentrate on something and trying to improve on something whether it's playing chess or Whether it is business you get really good at it and in the meanwhile you might not be good at interpersonal relationships You might not be good at the way you communicate with people you might not be good at but you have some weird That you're doing that seems to be successful and you're putting all your energy into that.

00:34:51.000 That's what he's doing.

00:34:52.000 That's what he's always done. 0.99

00:34:53.000 What he's always done is like these business deals and making money and putting a fucking giant hotel with his name on it. 0.99

00:35:00.000 Whoa! 0.98

00:35:00.000 Like that's what he thinks about. 0.98

00:35:02.000 And he's really good at that shit. 1.00

00:35:04.000 I would say he's tactical in the extreme. 1.00

00:35:06.000 You can't say he's not smart.

00:35:08.000 It's just like he's just not Sam Harris.

00:35:11.000 He's not capable of those kind of eloquent speeches and conversations off the cuff like that, which is a totally different skill.

00:35:18.000 Yeah, but if you looked at his tweets, for example, back in the day, there was so much formula in those tweets.

00:35:24.000 I started coming up with a template.

00:35:26.000 He had five different tweets.

00:35:28.000 And Sam just would not let go of the idea that he's a dum-dum. 0.70

00:35:32.000 And that was super expensive in the long run.

00:35:36.000 But I think it's because Sam knows that if you get in a debate with that guy, he could trounce him.

00:35:41.000 Part of it is that...

00:35:43.000 You think Sam could trounce him?

00:35:46.000 If they got in debate about religion, if they got in debate about certain things that Sam is, like neuroscience, certain things that Sam is very educated in, he's so good at debates.

00:35:59.000 It's like being a black belt that's used to tapping people all the time. 1.00

00:36:02.000 And then you see this guy, he's winning debates against people because he's calling them like, what does he call, Lion Ted, and he gives people nicknames, and I think If I was Sam, and I was as good at debate as Sam is, I would go, 0.98

00:36:17.000 I can fuck this guy up.

00:36:19.000 Sam doesn't know what's coming to him, if that's true, because there was a guy named Max Bleacher. 0.99

00:36:23.000 I'm sorry, Sam.

00:36:24.000 Drag you into this.

00:36:25.000 Who was a Los Angeles attorney who had a crazy idea.

00:36:29.000 He said, I'm going to try really complex antitrust cases in front of juries.

00:36:34.000 The jury's not going to be able to follow that.

00:36:36.000 He's like, exactly.

00:36:37.000 I'm going to speak simply.

00:36:40.000 One way to win one of these arguments is just say, the problem is the nuclear family. 0.89

00:36:46.000 Right?

00:36:46.000 And every single Democrat will say, you mean nuclear, and then you've lost.

00:36:52.000 Because when you correct somebody who's saying nuclear, we're like, okay, it's nuclear, egghead.

00:36:58.000 You lose.

00:36:59.000 Nuclear is a way to say it, too.

00:37:01.000 It is now. 0.99

00:37:04.000 That's how George W. Bush always said it, and everybody's like, hey, what the fuck? 0.98

00:37:07.000 Dennis Miller had a bit about it. 0.99

00:37:08.000 But it wins, right?

00:37:10.000 So this is why if you sit down with one of these, like if you and I are at the beach, right, and we've got the world's greatest beach volleyball team on one side, and the world's greatest CPAC Tuckero team on the other side, it's a ball, it's a net, and it's three dudes, okay?

00:37:25.000 Okay.

00:37:25.000 Who wins?

00:37:28.000 The people that are better?

00:37:29.000 Nope.

00:37:30.000 Who?

00:37:30.000 Depends who the ref is.

00:37:31.000 If the ref thinks it's volleyball, then the volleyball team will win.

00:37:34.000 And if the ref thinks it's CPAC-Tuckro, the CPAC-Tuckro team will win.

00:37:38.000 It's the same...

00:37:39.000 I don't know what CPAC-Tuckro is.

00:37:41.000 Oh, it's like the most beautiful...

00:37:42.000 Do you know what that is?

00:37:43.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:37:44.000 What is it?

00:37:45.000 It's similar to the thing with that ball that we have out there.

00:37:48.000 You have one of these Rattan balls?

00:37:50.000 Oh, okay. 0.88

00:37:52.000 It's like martial arts ballet in the air with the feet.

00:37:55.000 It's the best game ever.

00:37:57.000 I don't know why we're not doing it.

00:37:58.000 It's amazing.

00:37:59.000 Well, we can't do it. 1.00

00:38:00.000 Those guys are fucking... 1.00

00:38:01.000 I destroyed my left ankle on this game. 1.00

00:38:04.000 Oh, you can't be doing that.

00:38:05.000 You can't do that.

00:38:05.000 No, no.

00:38:06.000 When I was a young man, I was courting my wife.

00:38:07.000 I was going to impress her in Indonesia.

00:38:09.000 Like, let an American take over. 0.99

00:38:11.000 Okay, here we go.

00:38:12.000 These guys are phenomenal.

00:38:14.000 Okay.

00:38:14.000 Like, that is insane.

00:38:15.000 I mean, that's like a hundred Yair Rodriguez's out there.

00:38:19.000 Yair Rodriguez is a UFC fighter who fights like that.

00:38:21.000 I almost did it with boxing versus UFC, right?

00:38:24.000 Is the issue punching people in the face or is the issue doing everything except for small joints and eye sockets?

00:38:30.000 That kind of thing, though, requires like a kind of dexterity that's very difficult to acquire.

00:38:35.000 Like that kind of dexterity with your legs, that's like a Taekwondo dexterity.

00:38:40.000 100%.

00:38:40.000 The question is, what are the rules?

00:38:42.000 So in other words, if...

00:38:43.000 If Sam Harris goes up against Donald Trump, I can tell you who's going to win depending upon how we score.

00:38:49.000 Okay.

00:38:50.000 What if they have a conversation?

00:38:54.000 Here's what I don't like about debates.

00:38:56.000 What's artificial is that one person gets to talk for X amount of time.

00:39:01.000 It seems silly to me.

00:39:02.000 I don't mind someone being able to talk.

00:39:07.000 But it has to be a conversation.

00:39:09.000 Someone cannot dominate the conversation.

00:39:11.000 If you and I had a disagreement and I just wouldn't let you talk, it's very frustrating. 0.99

00:39:15.000 It sucks. 0.97

00:39:15.000 It's not good for anybody. 0.97

00:39:17.000 It's more likely to go the other way.

00:39:18.000 I'm sorry about that.

00:39:18.000 It could happen that way.

00:39:19.000 It could happen that way.

00:39:20.000 But it doesn't matter.

00:39:22.000 It's not fun.

00:39:23.000 And it's not fair.

00:39:26.000 It's like a fight.

00:39:27.000 I can poke you in the eye, but you can't poke me in the eye.

00:39:30.000 No, that's not fair.

00:39:31.000 It has to be fair.

00:39:32.000 So if you're going to have a – and some would say, well, he's not capable of having a good faith conversation, but that's the only way to do it. 0.53

00:39:39.000 The only way to do it is to have an open-ended timeframe where you could just – until this fucking thing is resolved or until we all give up, you guys can talk. 0.55

00:39:48.000 Was Dick Fosbury fair? 0.98

00:39:50.000 Who's Dick Fosbury?

00:39:51.000 The high jump guy from 68 in Mexico City.

00:39:54.000 I don't know.

00:39:55.000 What happened?

00:39:56.000 Oh, he figured out you had to go backwards over the bar rather than scissoring it.

00:40:00.000 Oh, he's the first guy to figure that out?

00:40:01.000 Yeah.

00:40:02.000 Oh, no kidding. 0.98

00:40:03.000 That's a pretty fucking bold move, right? 0.99

00:40:06.000 Bold move. 0.99

00:40:06.000 Or like you enter a catamaran in the America's Cup. 0.99

00:40:10.000 Do they have the same big pad?

00:40:11.000 Yeah.

00:40:12.000 So they had the same big pad before and they were just landing on it like that.

00:40:15.000 Oh, wow.

00:40:16.000 That's crazy.

00:40:17.000 Right?

00:40:18.000 Whoa! 0.71

00:40:19.000 That's insane.

00:40:20.000 That's how they used to do it?

00:40:21.000 Yeah.

00:40:22.000 Whoa! 0.71

00:40:23.000 Right, so zero day exploit.

00:40:24.000 Did you know this?

00:40:26.000 Did you know?

00:40:26.000 I feel like I knew this.

00:40:28.000 I knew about the Fosbury jump because I've heard of that, but I didn't know how they did it before.

00:40:31.000 I never looked. 0.99

00:40:32.000 Oh, shit. 1.00

00:40:32.000 That's incredible. 1.00

00:40:33.000 See, at the same Olympics, you have Bob Beeman jumping, like, what is it, two feet farther than any humans?

00:40:38.000 Like, probably the greatest single athletic performance of the 20th century happens there.

00:40:42.000 But zero-day exploits are really interesting.

00:40:45.000 Another one was the Bombay International Table Tennis Championship.

00:40:50.000 And the weakest player on the Japanese team was a guy – I'm going to get the name wrong here.

00:40:54.000 Jamie, keep me honest.

00:40:56.000 Hiroji Satoj.

00:40:58.000 He shows up in Bombay.

00:41:01.000 And he's like the worst player.

00:41:02.000 And he's got the secret paddle case.

00:41:06.000 And he unzips it.

00:41:07.000 And he's got rubber glued to both sides of the sandpaper bat that everybody else is using.

00:41:13.000 And he dominates everybody.

00:41:16.000 And you think because the rubber grips and spins.

00:41:19.000 But I think it's actually that everyone was cued to the sound.

00:41:22.000 And this deadened the sound...

00:41:25.000 And suddenly, nobody could play against him.

00:41:27.000 So he's like Iron Man.

00:41:29.000 Right, they're thinking.

00:41:30.000 They have another thing that they're thinking about now.

00:41:32.000 Like, why does it sound like that?

00:41:33.000 They don't even know that.

00:41:34.000 Ah.

00:41:36.000 Right?

00:41:37.000 Interesting.

00:41:38.000 Okay.

00:41:38.000 Hiroge Sato's controversial- Thick sponge bat that caused a revolution in table tennis.

00:41:43.000 But also, wouldn't it slow the ball down because of the softness of it?

00:41:49.000 I would imagine it would give you more control.

00:41:51.000 It seems like it would do both of those things.

00:41:54.000 Maybe it would slow the ball down a little bit because it's got a little bit of smush to it. 0.99

00:41:58.000 And I think that would almost be like a change-up in like a pitching situation, where someone's throwing a ball, you're expecting it to be 90 miles an hour instead of 60, and you're like, motherfucker! 0.99

00:42:08.000 Like, you're off, right? 0.98

00:42:10.000 Because you have to be so ready to go! 0.99

00:42:13.000 And it's slower than it should be, so it's fucking with your computer. 0.97

00:42:17.000 And I think the Chinese came up with the loop in table tennis. 1.00

00:42:21.000 I believe that in beach volleyball, the jumping serve where you go airborne and then you hit.

00:42:29.000 These discrete technical changes.

00:42:33.000 Let's take the one with Steph Curry.

00:42:36.000 I wish I could remember who this was.

00:42:38.000 Somebody in your audience will know.

00:42:39.000 There was an old-style top basketball player being interviewed.

00:42:43.000 What do you think of this guy, Steph Curry, and what's happening in the game?

00:42:45.000 And he said something that was so beautiful, I can't tell you.

00:42:49.000 Something to the effect of, you know, I don't know what game that is.

00:42:53.000 He said, I used to play in the paint.

00:42:55.000 We were all...

00:42:56.000 We're going at it and elbowing and trying to get position.

00:43:00.000 This guy's a million miles away from the basket, and he's just nothing but net.

00:43:05.000 He said, that's not basketball to me.

00:43:08.000 Like, he just didn't recognize what the thing had become.

00:43:12.000 Oh, that's so weird.

00:43:13.000 And so I think these zero-day exploits, and just taking it back to get to the UFOs, because we have crazy stuff...

00:43:21.000 The neutron is a zero-day exploit.

00:43:24.000 It's the Fosbury flop of physics.

00:43:26.000 Same for the semiconductor.

00:43:28.000 And we have stagnated for so long that people in our government aren't watching people like me and saying, what's going on, Eric?

00:43:38.000 Anything new?

00:43:38.000 What are you working on?

00:43:39.000 Because anybody who comes up with a new thing can change the entire balance of power on planet Earth.

00:43:47.000 How far away are we from new things?

00:43:50.000 And have new things been...

00:43:51.000 You can't ask me that because I have a different view than every other person.

00:43:54.000 I want to get back to you.

00:43:55.000 I'm going to ask you.

00:43:56.000 Let's do that at the end.

00:43:56.000 Don't tell me what I can ask you.

00:43:58.000 I'm asking you that, bro.

00:43:59.000 Okay.

00:44:01.000 Go ahead.

00:44:02.000 Keep going.

00:44:03.000 We'll get back to me asking you that.

00:44:04.000 Yeah, you can ask me that at the end.

00:44:06.000 But I want to do the stuff that's controversial but is like everybody should have to agree to it.

00:44:10.000 Okay.

00:44:11.000 Let's go.

00:44:12.000 So what I wanted to know was why during the 1950s did something happen that resulted in a 70-year stagnation in a field called quantum gravity.

00:44:25.000 Quantum gravity is like a startup that cannot ship a product after 70 years.

00:44:32.000 And it's still taken over in theoretical physics as sort of the prestige theory field.

00:44:38.000 And quantum gravity, is there an application for this that they were attempting to achieve?

00:44:47.000 No.

00:44:48.000 It's not a precursor to technology so far as we know.

00:44:53.000 But what happened was you probably have some dim memory of something. 0.98

00:44:56.000 By the way, these shooting stars in your ceiling are just fucking crazy. 0.97

00:44:58.000 Yeah, you've got to be warned. 0.99

00:45:00.000 Otherwise you're like, uh-oh.

00:45:03.000 Quantum gravity is the replacement for something that used to be known as the unified field.

00:45:12.000 So Einstein wasn't chasing quantum gravity, he was chasing unified field theory.

00:45:17.000 And unified field theory was much closer to what we would call classical physics.

00:45:23.000 Where you get quantum field theory by quantizing a classical theory.

00:45:27.000 That fell out of favor.

00:45:29.000 And around 1984, we gradually had unified field theory become sort of like a joke, old-timey expression for the future of physics.

00:45:40.000 And we substituted quantum gravity for the merger of quantum theory, quantum field theory, quantum mechanics, and gravitational physics under general relativity.

00:45:50.000 That program, that dog doesn't hunt.

00:45:54.000 And it hasn't hunted for 70 years.

00:45:56.000 So I wanted to trace this back.

00:45:58.000 How is it that the field became convinced that something which clearly doesn't seem to work and has had all of the resources, all of the best minds at its disposal, it sucks up everything, and it just doesn't work?

00:46:12.000 Why can't I question this?

00:46:14.000 Where did this come from?

00:46:15.000 So, to be specific, how many people are working on this problem?

00:46:20.000 And how many people have been working on this problem for 70 years without progress?

00:46:24.000 I would say that the period between 1953 and 73, there are parallel things.

00:46:30.000 Quantum gravity is not the mainstream at all.

00:46:33.000 Okay?

00:46:34.000 So, real physics is happening between 53 and 73 by anybody's understanding of it.

00:46:39.000 Okay.

00:46:40.000 Between 1973 and 1984, or let's say 74 to 84, because we'll group 73 to 53, you have 10 years of super exciting guesses about the extension of our understanding.

00:46:56.000 Things called supersymmetry, grand unified theory, technicolor.

00:47:02.000 These are really responsible guesses, axions.

00:47:06.000 And somebody like Sean Carroll or Neil deGrasse Tyson might talk to you about these things when they come in here.

00:47:13.000 In 1984, there's an earthquake called the anomaly cancellation.

00:47:20.000 And a failed theory of strong physics, the physics needed to glue two protons together in a helium nucleus because they both hate each other because of electromagnetism and want to separate, but something is binding them together like a family structure, right?

00:47:36.000 That force we initially tried to fix by thinking of it as strings.

00:47:40.000 We'll put like elastic bands between things and it'll pull things back together.

00:47:44.000 That didn't work.

00:47:46.000 But then we repurposed it and said, no, no, no, it's quantum gravity and...

00:47:51.000 One single individual who is the most dominant mind on planet Earth at the moment, effectively Voldemort, the person whose name we are a little bit afraid to invoke and cause wrath, said in 1984, no, string theory is the way.

00:48:07.000 This anomaly cancellation was unexpected and it clearly points to the fact that we are, ladies and gentlemen, we are about to quantize.

00:48:13.000 Who's that person?

00:48:14.000 Edward Witten.

00:48:16.000 And in physics circles, you're not allowed to bring this guy up?

00:48:21.000 We talk about him.

00:48:22.000 Everybody talks about him.

00:48:23.000 But to challenge him?

00:48:26.000 Think about Agent Smith.

00:48:28.000 Think about playing one-on-one with Michael Jordan in his prime.

00:48:34.000 He's that good?

00:48:35.000 Joe, I don't think... 0.93

00:48:37.000 I'm dumb enough not to be intellectually afraid of anyone else on planet Earth at this point. 0.99

00:48:42.000 I am terrified of this person. 0.99

00:48:44.000 Really?

00:48:46.000 I've said he's the Michael Jordan of theoretical physics.

00:48:49.000 If only Michael Jordan could play better basketball.

00:48:55.000 I'm not kidding around, Joe.

00:48:56.000 Okay.

00:48:56.000 Yeah.

00:48:57.000 Wow.

00:48:58.000 Right.

00:48:58.000 This good.

00:48:59.000 And has never made contact with the physical world.

00:49:04.000 So it's like one of the greatest conundrums.

00:49:07.000 So let me get back to how...

00:49:09.000 What do you mean by never made contact?

00:49:11.000 No Nobel Prize, never predicted something that turned out to be true, never pointed us to do an experiment that was then validated.

00:49:18.000 So 100% of his efforts have been not making contact with physical reality.

00:49:31.000 Oh, this is...

00:49:34.000 I'm sorry, you have people like Michio Kaku who are in the string theoretic school, or Sean Carroll is very sympathetic to it.

00:49:40.000 You need to understand this story.

00:49:44.000 Jamie, if I dare, may I ask, can we pull up something with Edward Witten and Abdus Salam on YouTube?

00:49:52.000 This person's voice.

00:49:55.000 Imagine a 6'4 person who talks like this.

00:49:59.000 Interesting.

00:49:59.000 Just like you could do a Vulcan mind meld and rearrange your mind into scrambled eggs within seconds.

00:50:06.000 I know tenured professors who hid in their offices when he visited MIT because he walked on everybody – he knocked on everyone's door.

00:50:14.000 And he has – you know how Warren Beatty had a pickup line that everyone knew?

00:50:18.000 What's new, pussycat?

00:50:19.000 Is that what he said?

00:50:20.000 Yeah, that was Warren Beatty's pickup line.

00:50:22.000 It's all you needed when you were warm-baity.

00:50:24.000 That's true. 1.00

00:50:24.000 Try that shit if you work at 7-Eleven. 1.00

00:50:26.000 This person. 1.00

00:50:26.000 Okay, let me hear him. 1.00

00:50:27.000 Pretty weird way for a theory to start.

00:50:29.000 String theory started with a clever formula written down by Veneziano in an effort to satisfy not-so-well motivated phenomenological ideas about strong interaction scattering.

00:50:40.000 That was a way for a theory to start which was as strange as the way quantum mechanics started.

00:50:44.000 And the way Einstein happened to have invented a theory in a It's a particularly striking triumph of reason and intuition.

00:50:56.000 But most other physical theories have had more complicated history.

00:50:59.000 You can tell how much is going on beyond this.

00:51:01.000 And it's hard to make theories about them.

00:51:02.000 You can't generalize at all of how invention will come.

00:51:06.000 Anybody who makes statements like that is by his own experience.

00:51:11.000 Now, that is Abdus Salam, Nobel Prize winner.

00:51:13.000 ...must be modified according to each situation.

00:51:16.000 What would you say?

00:51:17.000 No, it still seems to me it's a question of whether you start with a mathematical scheme and then look for a physical interpretation or start with a physical principle which you guessed to be correct and then, on the one hand, try and prove it experimentally to be true and, on the other hand,

00:51:33.000 codify it into a mathematical form.

00:51:36.000 I must admit, I've always been so admiring Einstein's procedure in general relativity of starting with a very simple physical remark based on the Galileo discovery that bodies of different mass fall at the same rate in the gravitational field of the earth.

00:51:53.000 He made a simple physical hypothesis why that should be true.

00:51:56.000 You have to understand, you know that old Jim Croce song about Big Jim?

00:52:01.000 Yes.

00:52:02.000 When the bad folks all get together at night, they all call Big Jim boss.

00:52:05.000 If you ask any of us who are any good, who's the person who terrifies you the most?

00:52:13.000 So are these guys debating him?

00:52:15.000 Is this what's going on?

00:52:16.000 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:52:17.000 Are they agreeing with him?

00:52:18.000 Are they questioning him?

00:52:18.000 They're having a friendly conversation.

00:52:20.000 Right.

00:52:20.000 Should we let it go more?

00:52:22.000 Up to you, but I would concentrate.

00:52:24.000 The other people are very interesting, top people.

00:52:27.000 This person is a towering 17 stories above everybody else.

00:52:33.000 Let me hear him talk more.

00:52:35.000 Because it seemed very fascinating watching the way he was talking about things.

00:52:39.000 It almost seems like he wanted to run away and get back to his lab.

00:52:43.000 I agree with you, except that I think it would have taken...

00:52:44.000 Longer, yes.

00:52:47.000 You see, Riemann almost did it.

00:52:49.000 Riemann almost did it.

00:52:50.000 Riemann had the conception that gravity was based on curved space-time, but what he lacked...

00:52:54.000 Sorry, Riemann had the conception that gravity was based on curved space.

00:52:58.000 He didn't conceive of curved space-time, because special relativity hadn't happened yet, so time and space hadn't been unified.

00:53:04.000 But if Riemann had lived after special relativity, he might well have lived.

00:53:08.000 He would have lived.

00:53:11.000 So I don't think it's such a cut-and-dried case ever.

00:53:15.000 Let me give you one more example, if I may.

00:53:19.000 Find some more, Ed.

00:53:22.000 So, should we get a different video of him?

00:53:25.000 You can find a lecture of him where he's alone.

00:53:28.000 Let him yap a little bit.

00:53:30.000 Okay.

00:53:32.000 ...you outside the field.

00:53:34.000 A winner of the Fundamental Physics Prize, a $3 million prize recently established by Yuri Milner to...

00:53:48.000 So, this was actually the discovery of antimatter.

00:53:52.000 The most basic property of antimatter is that matter-antimatter pairs can be created and annihilated.

00:53:58.000 In this picture, time is running horizontally.

00:54:03.000 What I'm sketching, the purple wiggly lines are meant to be photons.

00:54:07.000 Physicists often, in drawing so-called Feynman diagrams, use wiggly lines to indicate photons.

00:54:12.000 Here, two photons are annihilating into an electron-positoron pair.

00:54:17.000 So photons are as close to pure energy as it gets, And they can be converted to matter, that is, into anti-matter-matter pairs.

00:54:25.000 Imagine dating this guy's daughter and you have to meet him.

00:54:28.000 Hi, sir.

00:54:30.000 Nice to meet you.

00:54:32.000 What do you do at work?

00:54:37.000 I've tangled with him twice.

00:54:41.000 I don't – look, two friends of mine are his graduate students.

00:54:45.000 He's had two graduate students in mathematics.

00:54:48.000 He's not even a mathematician.

00:54:49.000 He's won the Fields Medal.

00:54:51.000 He's never won the Nobel Prize but he's won the highest prize in all of mathematics as a sideline.

00:54:55.000 He didn't even major in physics, majored in history at Brandeis.

00:55:00.000 They're fried.

00:55:02.000 They're brains.

00:55:03.000 Everybody who comes in contact with this person just never fully recovers.

00:55:08.000 Because he's that much smarter.

00:55:10.000 We don't know what process he's running.

00:55:13.000 I mean, imagine that you had like a machine tool.

00:55:15.000 Imagine you had like chat GPT in your ear.

00:55:20.000 Right.

00:55:21.000 Right.

00:55:23.000 Right.

00:55:39.000 Whoa.

00:55:40.000 Yeah, he seemed like the way he was sitting there, grasping his hands, and he seemed like very uncomfortable just to be around all these people.

00:55:50.000 I was at the University of Pennsylvania in like 1982 through 85, okay?

00:55:57.000 And I went to a lecture that he gave, and he said things like, Well, as every schoolchild and quantum field theorist knows...

00:56:07.000 Yeah, just like spontaneously laughing for no reason.

00:56:10.000 The number of generations is tied to the index of an elliptic operator on a Calabi out manifold.

00:56:16.000 And the guy next to me says...

00:56:20.000 I've been a quantum field theorist for 40 years.

00:56:22.000 I don't know any of this stuff.

00:56:24.000 Whoa.

00:56:25.000 Right?

00:56:25.000 So he came onto the scene and started telling us how everything was going to fit together.

00:56:31.000 And nobody had ever heard a story like this.

00:56:33.000 This is, by the way, lost to history because we fictionalized what happened with string theory.

00:56:39.000 This person was so far ahead that nobody wanted to contradict him.

00:56:45.000 He said this was the way.

00:56:47.000 You know, there are five string theories or whatever there are, six, four, I can't remember.

00:56:51.000 And it's going to be one of them and in 10 years we'll have the whole thing wrapped up.

00:56:55.000 And everybody wanted to be on the winning team knew that they weren't going to go up against this because they couldn't even figure out how he was doing what he was doing.

00:57:03.000 And what was really going on was very different than people understood.

00:57:08.000 Quantum field theory, which is now claimed by most physicists to be the most advanced theory we have, at the time was sort of a grab bag of different techniques.

00:57:18.000 You know, just like not unified.

00:57:22.000 He saw that this was effectively a coherent whole with help from a couple of other people who are often not as well acknowledged, one of which would be Michael Attia, another of which would be Graham Siegel,

00:57:37.000 another of which would be Dan Quillen, and my good friend and postdoctoral advisor, Isidore Singer.

00:57:44.000 So there was sort of a small cabal of people who figured out That quantum field theory was not only a coherent story.

00:57:52.000 It didn't really have to do with physics at all.

00:57:55.000 It was like calculus.

00:57:56.000 You can use calculus to do physics.

00:57:58.000 In fact, you can't do physics without it.

00:58:00.000 But you can also use calculus to optimize inventory and make your profits go up.

00:58:06.000 And so, as a result, quantum field theory was discovered not to be physical.

00:58:11.000 It was a framework that one physical input to that machine probably generates the world.

00:58:18.000 But the machine itself isn't about physics.

00:58:21.000 So this was the most romantic backfiring in the history of physics in a certain sense.

00:58:26.000 These guys set out to say, we are going to quantize gravity.

00:58:30.000 In other words, quantize geometry.

00:58:31.000 The geometry of Einstein and Riemann.

00:58:34.000 And what happened was exactly the reverse.

00:58:37.000 They gravitized the quantum.

00:58:39.000 They geometrized the quantum.

00:58:41.000 So it's been a remarkably productive – the reason we can say how brilliant this person is is because he geometrized the quantum at a level that we didn't know was possible.

00:58:51.000 On the other hand, he never made contact with physical reality the way he was expecting and promising to do.

00:58:56.000 So he's both – The most accomplished of us and the person who drove physics the most off of the road.

00:59:03.000 And if you attempt to give him his due and you don't – if you're not comfortable citing both of these things, you can't be an accurate historian, but he's still running around and nobody wants to go up against him.

00:59:14.000 How old is he now?

00:59:16.000 He's born in 1951, so he'll be turning 72, I think, later this year, if I'm not mistaken.

00:59:23.000 And then we get to the really crazy part.

00:59:27.000 Quantum gravity is really due to two families.

00:59:32.000 One is a husband and wife team, and the other is a father-son.

00:59:36.000 The husband and wife team were named Bryce DeWitt, formerly, I think, Bryce Seligman.

00:59:42.000 Don't know why he changed his name.

00:59:43.000 And his wife, Cecile DeWitt or Cecile DeWitt Moret.

00:59:47.000 And the father-son team was Louis Witten, who is still alive, now 101 years old, and Edward Witten.

00:59:55.000 And then the really weird stuff happens.

00:59:58.000 And this is why I was curious about UFOs and gravity and all this stuff.

01:00:04.000 The actual genesis of these two families having this outsized impact on the future of theoretical physics comes from two different people who are almost never talked about.

01:00:14.000 Matter of fact, most physicists have no idea their names.

01:00:16.000 One is named Agnew Bainson and the other is named Roger Babson.

01:00:21.000 And these two guys were deep into anti-gravity.

01:00:26.000 So the world's greatest mind and greatest living theoretical physics mind is the Sun, of the most prominent anti-gravity researcher, I swear, I kid you not, from the 1950s.

01:00:41.000 Whoa.

01:00:43.000 Whoa.

01:00:45.000 Now, there's an official story about this. 0.64

01:00:48.000 An official story that both the DeWitts tell and the Wittens tell is, oh, yeah, there were these crazy people. 0.58

01:00:55.000 They were very embarrassing.

01:00:56.000 They were always focused on anti-gravity.

01:00:59.000 But we were clever enough to defraud them of their money to do real gravitational research.

01:01:06.000 Ha ha ha.

01:01:08.000 They both said that?

01:01:09.000 Both families?

01:01:09.000 Well, they didn't use defraud.

01:01:12.000 But that's kind of what they implied?

01:01:13.000 That's correct.

01:01:14.000 Because it's an embarrassment.

01:01:16.000 And in order to understand this hugely productive period relative to the stagnation, the stagnation is incredibly high prestige.

01:01:25.000 Like, most of the positions at the Institute for Advanced Study, the top physics department ostensibly in the world, right?

01:01:32.000 You had a director named Robert Dijkgraaf, string theorist.

01:01:36.000 You had Edward Witten, string theorist.

01:01:38.000 Natty Seiberg, string theorist.

01:01:41.000 Juan Maldesena, string theorist.

01:01:43.000 And you had this guy, Nima Arkani-Hamed, who I hope you will have on this program, who is amazing, who is not a string theorist, but very string sympathetic.

01:01:54.000 This thing dominated.

01:01:56.000 It just took over.

01:01:57.000 And this weird genesis of a high-prestige field that can't accomplish what it's setting out to accomplish is in contrast to this mixed period between 1953 and 1973, where you have the world's most prestigious physicists palling around with pseudoscience.

01:02:21.000 UFO type stuff, gravity shielding, all this stuff.

01:02:25.000 So Babson is so crazy.

01:02:28.000 You can't even believe the story is true. 0.93

01:02:32.000 But he claims that his sister drowned in a pond because even though she was a good swimmer, she couldn't overcome gravity.

01:02:38.000 So gravity becomes his sworn enemy.

01:02:40.000 And he's going to use his fortune that he's gotten from predicting the crash of 1929 because of Newton's laws.

01:02:48.000 What goes up must come down so it gets out of the stock market six months early.

01:02:53.000 Babson makes a fortune.

01:02:55.000 He, Edison, and Clarence Burdi of frozen food, you know, fame, form this sort of little intellectual collective where they're going to defeat gravity.

01:03:04.000 So, for example, just because people are going to say, Eric, this is all nonsense, and it isn't.

01:03:09.000 Jamie, is it possible to pull up a stone monument at Tufts University to the anti-gravity that was done there?

01:03:16.000 So put in Tufts stone anti-gravity.

01:03:19.000 This guy littered universities all across the country with these monuments to prove that this anti-gravity stuff was actually taking place at American universities.

01:03:34.000 He established an essay contest.

01:03:37.000 All right, so check this out.

01:03:38.000 This monument has been directed by the Gravity Research Foundation, Roger Babson, founder, to remind students of the blessings of forthcoming when science determines what gravity is and how it works and how it may be controlled.

01:03:50.000 This is about UFOs and the idea that we are going to harness the power of gravity and we are going to get a supreme advantage.

01:03:58.000 And these stones are littered around the country.

01:04:04.000 Here's another one.

01:04:06.000 So this is not widely known that this research is being done.

01:04:09.000 This is hugely embarrassing to us.

01:04:11.000 Hugely embarrassing because it hasn't yielded results?

01:04:14.000 No, hugely embarrassing because it carries the stench of pseudoscience.

01:04:18.000 See, when people don't like me coming on your program and saying things that nobody else in the world is saying, they call me a pseudoscientist or that's crackpot.

01:04:27.000 And these words, like, you don't take them that seriously.

01:04:30.000 We had this discussion before with, like, Tim Dillon saying something about me.

01:04:34.000 You know, what has he ever done?

01:04:37.000 Academics play these games with each other where we try to push each other out of the ring like sumo wrestlers.

01:04:42.000 And the way you push somebody out is you say, oh, that guy's a crack body. 0.97

01:04:45.000 He's a grifter. 0.99

01:04:46.000 He's a pseudoscientist. 1.00

01:04:48.000 He's nutty. 1.00

01:04:48.000 He's a nutter. 1.00

01:04:50.000 Bullshit. 1.00

01:04:51.000 This was the marriage of the ultimate nuttiness with the highest prestige physics we know how to do. 0.99

01:04:59.000 Was this considered nuttiness in 64, though?

01:05:03.000 This is the interesting question.

01:05:04.000 In the middle of the 1950s, this is mainstream in newspapers, but, for example, Bryce DeWitt...

01:05:13.000 So here's how the two stories cross.

01:05:15.000 You start off with Babson and Bainson.

01:05:18.000 They're the money.

01:05:21.000 Babson found something called the Gravity Research Foundation in New Boston, New Hampshire, and he gets the Glenn L. Martin Company, which is the precursor of Martin Marietta, precursor of Lockheed Martin.

01:05:34.000 Do you know this stuff?

01:05:35.000 No.

01:05:35.000 Okay.

01:05:37.000 And he gets them to hire Lewis Witten out of Johns Hopkins.

01:05:41.000 Okay.

01:05:42.000 Lewis Whitten is a respectable physicist who takes the position and forms something called the Research Institute for Advanced Study.

01:05:50.000 Now, you've probably heard of Bell Labs or Xerox PARC, and you probably haven't heard of the Research Institute for Advanced Study.

01:05:58.000 Yet, this has illustrious names associated with it.

01:06:02.000 Solomon Lefschetz, the great topologist, comes out of retirement to work on this anti-gravity-inspired project.

01:06:12.000 Rudolf Kallmann of Kallmann Filtering.

01:06:14.000 There's no shortage.

01:06:15.000 Sheldon Glashow, who discovered spontaneous symmetry breaking under Julian Schwinger at Harvard.

01:06:22.000 I think?

01:06:54.000 So it's this marriage of utter madness and kookiness with top drawer white shoe respectability.

01:07:04.000 So this was my puzzle.

01:07:07.000 About UFOs.

01:07:08.000 What was this anti-gravity thing between 53 and 73?

01:07:13.000 And the reason it ends in 1973 is a guy named Mike Mansfield, I think of Montana as a senator, passes something called the Mansfield Amendment, which discontinues Army or Department of Defense military funding for blue sky research inside of our universities.

01:07:32.000 And what is blue sky research?

01:07:35.000 Hey, you're a young person.

01:07:37.000 You're super smart.

01:07:38.000 Here's a pile of money.

01:07:39.000 Don't even tell us what you're working on.

01:07:41.000 We just believe in you.

01:07:42.000 Go to it.

01:07:43.000 This is what caused us to be the envy of the effing world.

01:07:46.000 Cowboy science.

01:07:48.000 We were wild, okay?

01:07:50.000 We had skirt-chasing, hard-drinking, charismatic, brilliant human beings who answered to no one and walked around with swagger with their shoulders back and their chest puffed out.

01:08:03.000 Because around Sputnik, we wanted the best of the best to go into science.

01:08:09.000 Around 1973, we discontinue this.

01:08:13.000 We start talking about Golden Fleece Awards.

01:08:14.000 How did you waste the taxpayers' money?

01:08:17.000 And we become incapable of equaling the performances.

01:08:23.000 We worship Ted Williams because nobody's turned in a Ted Williams-style performance in ages.

01:08:31.000 Even Ed Witten can't do it.

01:08:33.000 In any era before this, Ed Witten would have won a Nobel Prize.

01:08:36.000 The guy, six months older than he is from 1951, a guy named Frank Wilczek, who won the Nobel Prize, even being a tiny bit older than Ed Witten, you know, Frank is brilliant, but he's not Ed Witten-like.

01:08:52.000 He got a Nobel Prize for something called asymptotic freedom in strong interactions.

01:08:58.000 This newfound Impotence.

01:09:02.000 Let's just call it impotence.

01:09:03.000 It's like you turned the world's most vital people into castrati. 0.98

01:09:09.000 And you did it by accounting for their dollars, making them say how everything they did had a practical application, defending the purpose of blue sky research as if they were wasting taxpayer dollars.

01:09:23.000 They got called welfare queens in white lab coats. 0.95

01:09:27.000 The whole thing is completely ridiculous.

01:09:29.000 But we have been in the process of dismantling the world's most productive, powerful scientific enterprise from really 1968. 5 or 73 till the present day.

01:09:42.000 And the 65 dates from Ghislaine Maxwell's father. 0.93

01:09:46.000 Robert Maxwell is basically the son of a bitch who introduced peer review, which had only really been strong in the biomedical literature, into general science because he figured out how to make a fortune hacking the universities. 0.73

01:10:03.000 If you're a university, if you want to have a complete library, you have to buy all the journals that paper is appearing. 0.98

01:10:08.000 So he said, great news.

01:10:10.000 I'll jack up the prices and jack up the number of journals.

01:10:13.000 I'll just explode the number of journals.

01:10:16.000 And every university that doesn't want to be incomplete has to buy my product.

01:10:22.000 So suddenly there weren't enough good editors to edit all of these tiny microjournals, you know, Journal of Hyperspecific Thing X. So peer review comes screaming in, in 1965, through his company,

01:10:38.000 Maxwell's company called Pergamon Press.

01:10:41.000 So Ghislaine Maxwell's father is like the first major attack on science.

01:10:47.000 And then the Mansfield Amendment comes in.

01:10:49.000 There's something called the Eilberg Amendment in 1973. In 1980, there's something called the Bayh-Dole Amendment.

01:10:54.000 Then there's the Immigration Act of 1990. And we're just chipping away at the vitality of American cowboy science.

01:11:01.000 So right now, if you go into a science department, the whole question is, well, what have you done for diversity, inclusion, and equity?

01:11:07.000 You know, let's agree that there's no lone geniuses in the world, as if we didn't have Einstein and von Neumann and Teller and all these people.

01:11:15.000 Everything is communal.

01:11:17.000 Everything is in the air.

01:11:18.000 It's like nobody wants to work in this environment.

01:11:20.000 Nobody good.

01:11:21.000 Right?

01:11:22.000 So whatever it is, we have been devitalizing certainly since 1973 for 50 years but also really since 1965. How do you turn that boat around though?

01:11:32.000 We're doing whatever we can.

01:11:34.000 Like, if you're rich and you're smart and you're connected, if you're part of some secret program and you're watching this, please reach out to the Joe Rogan experience or Eric Weinstein to turn the ship around.

01:11:45.000 But let's keep going because I want to get to the UFOs again.

01:11:49.000 So my question was, what is going on with anti-gravity, UFOs, the world's smartest human beings between 1953 and 73?

01:12:01.000 Somebody help me out.

01:12:04.000 Why two families, the DeWitts and the Wittons?

01:12:07.000 And let me give you the reason that I didn't want to touch this subject.

01:12:12.000 The reason I didn't want to touch this subject has to do with something I learned from World War II. So you probably know the codename for D-Day?

01:12:21.000 No.

01:12:21.000 Operation Overlord?

01:12:24.000 There was a companion thing called Operation Bodyguard.

01:12:28.000 And in particular, Operation Fortitude, which was inside of Operation Party Guard, which was the planned invasion of Norway, which was never going to happen.

01:12:37.000 But we faked an entire invasion of Norway because we had a troop buildup in England that was going to be headed into a very narrow place and was going to be outgunned by the Germans.

01:12:48.000 So how do you get all of these people who have to fight, who have loose lips, probably going off and seeing prostitutes?

01:12:55.000 Who knows?

01:12:56.000 Not to blow, spill the beans on D-Day.

01:13:00.000 Well, you create an entirely fake invasion of Norway.

01:13:05.000 Is it possible to bring up Operation Fortitude just to see a map of this thing?

01:13:08.000 So they faked radio chatter.

01:13:10.000 They had inflatable tanks.

01:13:12.000 I think there were army divisions that didn't exist.

01:13:15.000 I was looking at something.

01:13:16.000 It didn't call it what you called it, but it's the same stuff.

01:13:19.000 Yeah?

01:13:20.000 I think this is the map you're talking about.

01:13:21.000 Well, that's northern France.

01:13:25.000 Fortitude would be targeted on...

01:13:26.000 I've seen the inflated tanks.

01:13:28.000 Yeah, it's funny, right?

01:13:28.000 That was what it was regards to.

01:13:30.000 So deception...

01:13:32.000 And we talked about kayfabe before.

01:13:34.000 Like, I'm very focused on it.

01:13:36.000 What I really care about...

01:13:38.000 Look at that.

01:13:39.000 That's hilarious.

01:13:40.000 They had a bunch of inflatable tanks.

01:13:43.000 So this entire deception had to be parallel.

01:13:49.000 Overlord wouldn't have worked without fortitude.

01:13:53.000 Now, if you assume that that's the basic paradigm, which is whenever we're going to do something badass, we're also going to do something fake...

01:14:02.000 I thought the UFOs was the Operation Fortitude part of something real.

01:14:07.000 This is my bad.

01:14:08.000 I screwed up.

01:14:09.000 Eric failed.

01:14:10.000 Blah, blah, blah.

01:14:11.000 So you thought at what point?

01:14:15.000 Like when the New York Times revealed they talked to people in the Pentagon?

01:14:19.000 Before that.

01:14:19.000 I thought, okay, you want to develop the SR-71 Blackbird.

01:14:23.000 You want to develop the stealth bomber.

01:14:26.000 You want a code.

01:14:27.000 You want a cover program.

01:14:29.000 So you're going to come up with like UFOs.

01:14:31.000 Somebody sees something in the air.

01:14:33.000 Dude, there was like a flying triangle.

01:14:35.000 I swear to God.

01:14:36.000 There was this thing that went so fast I couldn't even believe it.

01:14:39.000 Well, one of them is a B-2 bomber and the other one is SR-71 Blackbird.

01:14:45.000 Duh.

01:14:45.000 Right.

01:14:46.000 So why do I want to get involved with Operation Fortitude?

01:14:50.000 I'm a patriotic American.

01:14:52.000 If we're going to lie about stuff and we're doing it for a good purpose and it's not hurting anybody, I don't want to get involved and say, I'm so smart I can figure it out.

01:14:58.000 I don't want to be anywhere near that.

01:15:00.000 So that's what I assumed about UFOs.

01:15:03.000 And I goofed.

01:15:05.000 So what do you think it is now?

01:15:07.000 Well, that's the new question.

01:15:08.000 And what made you shift this perspective?

01:15:12.000 So there was this weird thing that happened where we announced through the New York Times that this stuff may be more real than anyone cared to imagine.

01:15:21.000 You know, and Jeremy Corbell was releasing these videos and who was leaking them, I don't know.

01:15:26.000 And the New York Times was authenticating.

01:15:28.000 And, you know, you get all of this, again, tons of ambiguity.

01:15:31.000 So everybody's decision tree blows out.

01:15:33.000 Nobody can think straight.

01:15:34.000 But I thought...

01:15:36.000 Oh no.

01:15:37.000 What if the old Feynman stories that I've been following are actually about something rather than about a deception?

01:15:47.000 So for example, Feynman has a story where he says, Hey, there was this guy who was giving physics lectures to aerospace engineers, and they didn't like him, so I had to go out to Buffalo.

01:15:58.000 I thought, Buffalo?

01:15:59.000 That's Curtis Wright.

01:16:00.000 You're going to Curtis Wright Aerospace.

01:16:03.000 And he's got another one about, you know, give me a dollar because somebody calls him up and says, give us the nuclear patents to, like, fission-driven planes and crazy stuff.

01:16:17.000 Yeah.

01:16:19.000 But Feynman is constantly telling us – he's got a story called It's Greek to Me where he shows up in North Carolina.

01:16:27.000 I can't remember whether he's supposed to go to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill or Greenville.

01:16:34.000 And he has to figure it out and he says, oh, I'm late to the conference.

01:16:38.000 There would be a bunch of people mumbling the words G-mu-nu.

01:16:40.000 And the guy says, oh, it's Chapel Hill.

01:16:42.000 So he goes there.

01:16:42.000 It's a ha-ha-ha.

01:16:43.000 It's a cute story about how clever Feynman is, which they all are.

01:16:47.000 But that was a conference sponsored by the Institute for Field Physics at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, sponsored by Agnew Bainson through Bryce DeWitt, who is the person who repurposed the Gravity Research Foundation essay,

01:17:03.000 which is only supposed to be about harnessing gravity, antigravity, antigravity devices like UFOs.

01:17:09.000 And he said, well, if you really want to get to antigravity, you have to do it through quantum gravity.

01:17:14.000 Right?

01:17:15.000 Now, he did that, and then a couple of people from the Institute, it was Arnaud and Desser, entered and won this competition that had this stench about it, because it was, like, stigmatized.

01:17:25.000 You're going to enter a competition for anti-gravity devices?

01:17:28.000 Ha ha ha.

01:17:30.000 Oppenheimer says, wow, you guys won this by using the name of the Institute for Advanced Study.

01:17:34.000 You give the money back right now.

01:17:35.000 We're not going to touch pseudoscience.

01:17:38.000 The guys kept the money.

01:17:39.000 And then the floodgates opened and Penrose entered it.

01:17:42.000 Wilczek entered it.

01:17:43.000 Everybody and their mother, Martin Pearl, entered this competition.

01:17:47.000 Lots of Nobel laureates win it. 0.96

01:17:50.000 This is this marriage of total bullshit and And top drawer physics that the rest of us are not allowed to participate. 0.71

01:17:58.000 So if you want a weird model for how physics works, Think about diplomatic immunity, but in science. 0.98

01:18:05.000 You've got this group of people at the top who are allowed to engage in quackery.

01:18:10.000 They can hang out at Esalen and smoke dope and take LSD and go into sensory deprivation tanks like Feynman.

01:18:19.000 They can pal around with rich people who are talking about anti-gravity.

01:18:24.000 But the rest of us have to stay in our lane.

01:18:28.000 Well, that ends now.

01:18:29.000 Now that I've been contacted by people saying – Eric, Sam Harris and I were both contacted saying that there's a disclosure planned and it's got – there's big updates and we need you to communicate this news to the world.

01:18:45.000 There's disclosure about a specific technology.

01:18:50.000 I mean, more or less the way this works, it doesn't matter who you talk to.

01:18:54.000 Something is huge.

01:18:55.000 I can't talk to you about it because you don't have clearance.

01:18:57.000 But we're going to fly out to Colorado Springs and we're going to show you some stuff and you're never going to be the same.

01:19:04.000 Right?

01:19:05.000 Like, okay, I'm on standby.

01:19:09.000 My process, Joe, is that I'm very open-minded, but I have a very strong filter before I'll say, yeah, that's true, that's real.

01:19:17.000 That freaks people out.

01:19:18.000 Why are you even talking to these people?

01:19:20.000 Well, because I know the history, and you don't.

01:19:23.000 So I was open to this.

01:19:25.000 Sam was open to this. 0.99

01:19:27.000 And it's Lucy in the football every goddamn week. 1.00

01:19:31.000 When am I headed out to Colorado? 0.98

01:19:33.000 You're going to be met by a car and you're going to be blindfolded and you won't know where you are.

01:19:38.000 Blah, blah, blah.

01:19:38.000 Okay.

01:19:39.000 Okay.

01:19:39.000 This week?

01:19:40.000 Next week?

01:19:41.000 The week after?

01:19:42.000 Oh, no, no.

01:19:42.000 Something's come up on the hill.

01:19:43.000 Things are getting crazy.

01:19:45.000 We're going to be talking to some very big people.

01:19:47.000 I can't talk to you right yet.

01:19:48.000 So that's been my weird life now, a part of it, for like three years.

01:19:53.000 I don't know how long.

01:19:54.000 For three years they've been telling you that they're going to release this.

01:19:57.000 Yeah, and it's always pushed out, right?

01:20:00.000 So, like, it's a manana program.

01:20:04.000 Okay?

01:20:04.000 It's always manana.

01:20:06.000 And I'm not falling for it, but I'm telling you now that I have information.

01:20:13.000 I can't tell you everything I know.

01:20:15.000 I wish I could, but I'm a team player, and if somebody says something in confidence, I'm not going to reveal it on the Joe Rogan experience.

01:20:24.000 But there's some things I can say that nobody else can say, which is I had a very weird reaction to this.

01:20:29.000 I think Sam was initially interested, and then they magnated him three times, and he said, I'm out.

01:20:35.000 Doesn't talk about it.

01:20:37.000 I went a different route.

01:20:38.000 I said, okay, you guys keep saying all this stuff is real.

01:20:41.000 You keep saying you've got high-quality data that you can't show anybody because it's all stovepipe.

01:20:46.000 You hear this word over and over, stovepipe, meaning that each little group is isolated.

01:20:50.000 Like Bob Lazar says, I was only allowed to see this little thing.

01:20:56.000 So I say, okay, am I right that you're telling me that these things are real?

01:21:00.000 Yeah.

01:21:01.000 Then they say, and that nobody could do this that we know of?

01:21:05.000 I said, that's right, because they seem to defy the laws of physics.

01:21:09.000 You hear this phrase over and again, defy the laws of physics.

01:21:12.000 I said, great.

01:21:13.000 I need to talk to somebody who speaks physics.

01:21:16.000 How do you know they defy physical law?

01:21:19.000 Well, we can see that they do.

01:21:20.000 It's like, okay.

01:21:21.000 If they defy physical law...

01:21:24.000 Then there should be a physicist to tell me that they defy physical law.

01:21:28.000 Who's seen the data?

01:21:28.000 Maybe he can't release it to me or she.

01:21:32.000 But tell me somebody who speaks tensor analysis.

01:21:36.000 Tell me somebody who knows what the Dirac equation is.

01:21:38.000 Like a pretty low bar for a physicist.

01:21:41.000 There is no one.

01:21:44.000 And I don't quite mean no one, but do you know who Eric W. Davis is?

01:21:49.000 No.

01:21:50.000 You ever heard of the Wilson memo?

01:21:51.000 No.

01:21:53.000 Okay, there's something called the Wilson Memo, where there's a physicist who meets a general or an admiral, and the general or the admiral is trying to figure out, I think this is at EG&G, why is there some program that I'm not allowed to know about?

01:22:07.000 I have the highest clearances.

01:22:08.000 I have a need to know.

01:22:09.000 Like, sorry, we can't tell you.

01:22:12.000 He's talking to somebody named Eric W. Davis.

01:22:15.000 Eric W. Davis, so far as I can find...

01:22:20.000 Is the only person other than maybe Hal Puthoff who I've been able to talk to who speaks anything of these languages?

01:22:29.000 This is not a particularly famous physicist.

01:22:32.000 Hal Puthoff is an electrical engineer, I think a PhD in electrical engineering.

01:22:38.000 Eric W. Davis says to me, I said, is there nobody out here who speaks physics?

01:22:43.000 This doesn't make any sense.

01:22:44.000 And he says, well, you, Hal, and I are the three most technical people on this.

01:22:49.000 Joe, I'm not even on this.

01:22:52.000 So you know as much about it as anyone, and you're not even involved, and there's only two other people that know the science pilots?

01:23:00.000 And one of them is into remote viewing and was a Scientologist.

01:23:09.000 So...

01:23:11.000 I'm just – imagine that you take your wife to the symphony, okay?

01:23:14.000 You're going to see Beethoven's seventh.

01:23:16.000 And you look at the string section.

01:23:18.000 Brass section's in place and the percussion is there.

01:23:22.000 And you look at the string section and it's a bunch of certified public accountants.

01:23:26.000 You're like, where are the violins?

01:23:29.000 Where are the violins?

01:23:30.000 Oh, no, no.

01:23:32.000 Actually, we have reporters for the AP. They're stringers.

01:23:35.000 That's not the same thing.

01:23:36.000 We have string theorists.

01:23:37.000 That's not the same thing.

01:23:39.000 This is simple.

01:23:41.000 I've been on this for three years, and I can't find anybody who speaks this language, which now that is a huge clue. 1.00

01:23:49.000 Imagine that you say that we've lost control of our airspace.

01:23:52.000 We're being menaced, threats to civilian aviation, military aviation.

01:23:57.000 They're seeing these things every day.

01:23:58.000 They defy the physical laws and there are no physicists anywhere to be found.

01:24:02.000 That smells like BS. Or it smells like a pathological level.

01:24:10.000 And Marco Rubio and Kirsten Gilderbrand, if you're out there, can you please find out why there are no technically competent people on an area of national security?

01:24:22.000 And please don't mumble the word stovepipe or need to know or sources and methods.

01:24:27.000 I mean, we had a Manhattan Project.

01:24:30.000 We staffed it with physicists.

01:24:31.000 You have a physics problem.

01:24:33.000 If these things are here, Joe, they are here from so far out of town or they are co-mingling with us on Earth.

01:24:40.000 I can't tell you which.

01:24:42.000 There are some reports that these things come screaming in from behind our satellites that are trained at Earth along non-ballistic trajectories.

01:24:51.000 I have no idea how to say this.

01:24:53.000 I'm talking all the time to Avi Loeb with the Galileo Project, trying to help him out.

01:24:58.000 He needs funding and he needs some ability to, you know, just if the government won't play ball, he's going to put out his own censors in places like Catalina Island, blanket the world, and he'll be able to say, we're seeing these things or we're not seeing these things.

01:25:11.000 But right now we have a puzzle that our government won't release information to its own scientific community.

01:25:18.000 And it reminds me of, you probably know Airplane, the movie.

01:25:21.000 Well, there's this point where they're trying to land this airplane with these people who aren't pilots.

01:25:27.000 He says, turn on the landing strip lights.

01:25:30.000 And it was Lloyd Bridges or somebody says, no, that's just what they'll be expecting.

01:25:35.000 Like he's trying to sabotage the people who are trying to land the plane.

01:25:38.000 It doesn't make any sense.

01:25:39.000 We're sabotaging our own scientists.

01:25:42.000 Do you think this is because there's a level of secrecy that's attached to this technology and they've compartmentalized themselves to death and they've gotten themselves to a point where they don't know how to proceed further because they're preventing people from sharing information?

01:25:58.000 Which is one of the most important things about science, is that scientists get to share information and all work together to try to figure out what the problem is.

01:26:08.000 Is that a reasonable Well, here comes the decision trees.

01:26:13.000 Like, I wish I could say, yeah, that's what I think it is.

01:26:15.000 Right, but it might not be.

01:26:19.000 If you are faking UFOs, the last people you want are the world's most brilliant physicists.

01:26:27.000 You give them the data, they're going to say, oh, look, I see what you did.

01:26:31.000 You put a couple of flashlights with lasers into the sky and you can move them really quickly by the angle and that creates the illusion that something is zipping through the world.

01:26:40.000 Right?

01:26:41.000 If you are faking UFOs, if you're faking a UFOgasm, The last thing you want is theoretical physicists on the case.

01:26:48.000 So that would be one reason to clear them out.

01:26:50.000 Another reason would be bureaucracy.

01:26:53.000 You've got these rival groups.

01:26:54.000 They're all starved for money.

01:26:56.000 Nobody wants to invite somebody smarter than they are.

01:26:58.000 So the problem with a B-level and C-level players is that they're looking for DNF players so that they're not threatened.

01:27:04.000 That's another possibility.

01:27:06.000 A different possibility is that we do have a Manhattan Project.

01:27:10.000 And we don't know about it.

01:27:27.000 How do you know that it exists if nobody told you?

01:27:29.000 Well, you'd look at the number theory PhDs, and people who specialize in things like elliptic curves, and you would notice that a giant number of them after their PhDs disappear.

01:27:42.000 And you'd track to see, well, where do those people live?

01:27:44.000 Where do those names live?

01:27:45.000 Oh, they live in Virginia.

01:27:46.000 Okay.

01:27:47.000 So you'd start to get an idea.

01:27:49.000 Now, in the case of UFOs, if there was an anti-gravity project, which it's painful for me to even say these words, really what it would be is a post-Einsteinian physics project.

01:28:03.000 If you had a post-Einsteinian physics project, you would want three subspecialties for sure.

01:28:09.000 That would be differential geometry, which is the basis for originally general relativity, In 1976, 75, two guys named C.N. Yang and Jim Simons,

01:28:25.000 who Jim Simons becomes the world's greatest hedge fund manager, figure out that quantum field theory is also based on geometry.

01:28:36.000 But it's a different version of differential geometry.

01:28:38.000 So that's one specialty that you would want.

01:28:41.000 Second specialty that you would want would be particle theory or high-energy physics, however you want to say that.

01:28:48.000 The third specialty you'd want is general relativity.

01:28:51.000 So if you wanted to detect whether we had a secret Manhattan project but it wasn't identifiable, I think we're good to go.

01:29:15.000 The two places that you would have a secret place would be Austin, which is the successor to the Institute for Field Physics at the University of Texas Austin Gravitational Group, General Relativistic Group, which has had John Archibald Wheeler,

01:29:33.000 Steven Weinberg, Bryce DeWitt.

01:29:36.000 This is a powerhouse of a place that you happen to live in, and you should have these people who are the successors to these people on, because most of these people have died.

01:29:45.000 But the more spectacular place would be Sawtucket, Long Island.

01:29:53.000 The State University of New York at Stony Brook has an astounding collection of monster mines.

01:30:03.000 And it's not highly regarded as a university.

01:30:07.000 I mean, it's strong, but you would have no idea how strong this place is.

01:30:12.000 It's got multiple Fields Medalists, It's got an institute called the Simon Center for Geometry and Physics.

01:30:23.000 Sien Yang, who's arguably the greatest living theoretical physicist, is at this university.

01:30:30.000 He's 101 years old, so he's pretty much on his way out, but this is where he's called home.

01:30:36.000 And it's not advertised as the powerhouse that it is.

01:30:42.000 So shout out to the State University of New York at Stony Brook.

01:30:45.000 If I was going to locate a Manhattan Project in plain sight and get U.S. News and World to report this as a minor player in research, that's where I'd go.

01:30:56.000 But more importantly, and this is the really weird thing, and again, I don't want to spread this as a rumor, but I am saying...

01:31:04.000 If you wanted to imagine that the government wasn't incompetent and we actually had great people on this project, my friend and advisor who's now died, Isidore Singer, once said to me, he said, the world's greatest mathematics and physics department is renaissance technologies.

01:31:23.000 I said, what?

01:31:26.000 Didn't make any sense to me.

01:31:28.000 It's great people, but it's a hedge fund.

01:31:32.000 Okay, so you've got this weird thing where you've got three basic institutions that are very closely intertwined.

01:31:40.000 You've got Brookhaven National Laboratory.

01:31:43.000 You've got State University of New York at Stony Brook, a mid-level university with an out-of-this-world math and physics program.

01:31:52.000 And you've got a hedge fund that makes more money than anybody can possibly imagine.

01:31:59.000 There used to be four fortunes in hedge funds that didn't make any sense.

01:32:06.000 One was D.E. Shaw, one was Bernie Madoff, one was Jeff Epstein, and one was Renaissance Technologies.

01:32:15.000 Wow.

01:32:17.000 And I guessed that Bernie Madoff had a legitimate business and an illegitimate business, and he was front-running the legitimate business with his illegitimate business.

01:32:27.000 So he was effectively stealing from his own clients in one division.

01:32:32.000 One was the theft, one was the dupes.

01:32:35.000 I got that wrong.

01:32:36.000 He was just running a Ponzi scheme, so shame on me.

01:32:39.000 But I was giving talks about, you know, there's BlackRock and Blackstone as investment groups.

01:32:46.000 And I was going around in the early 2000s talking about Black Arts Capital.

01:32:50.000 I would give talks on Black Arts Capital. 0.99

01:32:52.000 We'd tell you what we're doing, but we'd have to kill you. 0.97

01:32:55.000 And that was a reference to Madoff and Epstein, because Epstein's fortune made no sense. 0.99

01:33:01.000 Right?

01:33:03.000 Renaissance has existed in its medallion fund for decades, has turned in a performance never seen by anything else remotely, effectively just a money printing machine.

01:33:15.000 No one knows how it works.

01:33:18.000 I've met with Jim Simons one-on-one for three hours, and because his wife is an economist, my wife is an economist, I'm a differential geometer, he's a differential geometer, I gave him this entire theory that all of modern neoclassical economics is actually differential geometric.

01:33:36.000 Three hours later, he's been chain-smoking, smokes like a chimney, never wears socks, very eccentric guy, brilliant as the day is long, still alive, go get him for a guest.

01:33:49.000 He says, well, Eric, that's brilliant.

01:33:51.000 If you knew what we were actually doing, you'd be very disappointed.

01:33:54.000 LAUGHTER He said, I never thought of this.

01:33:57.000 Now, a little while later, I don't know if you know who Brian Keating is.

01:34:00.000 He's a professor at UCSD. He's an experimentalist.

01:34:04.000 Jim is basically his uncle.

01:34:06.000 And he calls me out to Santa Barbara.

01:34:09.000 And Jim is having dinner at his brother's house.

01:34:14.000 And what you guys don't know about Jim Simons is that with a guy named S.S. Churn, he came up with something called the Churn-Simons Function or Churn-Simons Functional.

01:34:26.000 Where if you differentiate this thing, the way you differentiate the Einstein-Hilbert functional, you get an equation that looks very similar to the Einstein field equation for gravity, only it looks a lot more like particle theory.

01:34:40.000 So I told Jim, I said, I don't know if you know this or you don't know this, but I think you're sitting on top of of a piece of the puzzle that supersedes general relativity.

01:34:52.000 And on the spot, he asked me whether I wanted to come out to the State University of New York at Stony Brook for a year to work on this.

01:35:02.000 We had a very technical conversation.

01:35:05.000 Jim Simons is potentially, I mean, beyond brilliant, But also has a claim on a part of what I believe is going to supersede general relativity by imitating the Einstein-Hilbert action from which the Einstein field equations are derived.

01:35:22.000 This thing generates something which you would call the Chern-Simons equation.

01:35:27.000 Ed Witten gets the Fields Medal for quantizing this thing that looks like gravity but is actually sort of particle theoretic.

01:35:35.000 And I can't get into it because we don't have the common language to do it.

01:35:42.000 This is huge stuff.

01:35:44.000 What's going on at Stony Brook?

01:35:46.000 What has happened is Stony Brook is ground zero for the explosion in mathematical physics that came through something called the Wu-Yang Dictionary, where suddenly the quantum became as geometric as general relativity.

01:35:59.000 Then it got more geometric through something called geometric quantization.

01:36:02.000 Then it got more geometric through something called geometric quantum field theory, or topological quantum field theory, or conformal quantum field theory.

01:36:09.000 I don't know whether Satakit Is the locusts.

01:36:15.000 Can you bring up the iconic wall?

01:36:18.000 A picture of the iconic wall.

01:36:20.000 This is like a religious artifact.

01:36:21.000 Let me pee.

01:36:23.000 Hold this right here.

01:36:24.000 Let's hold right here with this.

01:36:26.000 We'll bring that up.

01:36:26.000 We'll be right back.

01:36:28.000 We're back.

01:36:29.000 We're up.

01:36:30.000 Okay.

01:36:30.000 So, Jamie, what was this thing that you were pulling up?

01:36:34.000 We have a picture here of the iconic wall at Stony Brook.

01:36:39.000 It's a little hard to see in the picture, so that is what is on it.

01:36:43.000 Okay.

01:36:44.000 So this is like...

01:36:45.000 Imagine ancient Egyptian runes.

01:36:48.000 And like the most crazy...

01:36:51.000 First of all, I would correct this thing in a million different ways.

01:36:55.000 But you see the Atiyah-Singer index theorem, equation for the curvature tensor, Maxwell's equations in geometric form, written out in differential form, equations for string theory...

01:37:08.000 This thing, E8, the 248 largest simple league group in the world, this is like almost a religious pilgrimage site.

01:37:20.000 What's wrong with that that you would correct?

01:37:22.000 You want to put it up?

01:37:23.000 Yeah.

01:37:29.000 D-A star of F-A at the bottom of the ellipse equals zero is only the vacuum equations.

01:37:34.000 I would put in a term called J. Above that, you see Dim-Ker-D. This is the Atiyah Singer.

01:37:45.000 Remember, Isidore Singer.

01:37:47.000 That thing should be expanded to something called the Atiyah-Potodi Singer Index Theorem for Manifolds with Boundary.

01:37:55.000 Above that, you see the Dirac equation, id slash minus m times psi equals zero.

01:38:03.000 Actually, if I'm correct, it should be a hybrid between the Rurita-Schwinger and the Dirac equations based on a three-complex tensor with a spinner.

01:38:12.000 Above that, you have a non-relativistic equation, which is the Schrodinger equation, because there's only one derivative in terms of t, but there's that nabla, that triangle squared, which is Different in terms of space, so you can't treat space and time asymmetrically.

01:38:26.000 Above that, you have the Einstein field equations, R mu nu minus one-half R times g mu nu.

01:38:31.000 There should be a cosmological constant in there, which is missing.

01:38:37.000 To the right, you have the E8 diagram, should be the Titz-Freudenthal magic square.

01:38:43.000 So I don't know whether this is like a Straussian communication in the sense that if you're smart enough, you should know that there are tons of Errors, limitations, and bad choices.

01:38:52.000 I would not write out the Maxwell above that.

01:38:56.000 You've got these Nabla B, Nabla E equals zero. 1.00

01:38:59.000 What's the other possibility in terms of these errors?

01:39:01.000 Somebody hired somebody to do something impressionistic and it got too far in the process, carving Indiana limestone before they figured out that you should really do this better.

01:39:10.000 But this is gorgeous and it's the only place in the world This is my language, Joe.

01:39:17.000 If you ask, like, what language does Eric speak and why does he act weird when he comes on my show?

01:39:22.000 This is my native language.

01:39:24.000 It's a beautiful piece.

01:39:26.000 I mean, beyond.

01:39:28.000 It's really wild.

01:39:29.000 And it costs a fortune.

01:39:31.000 And this is Jim Simon's money at work.

01:39:34.000 And you need to know Jim.

01:39:38.000 Okay.

01:39:40.000 I mean...

01:39:44.000 So my question is, is there some – do we have a project?

01:39:49.000 If it's not – if we're not doing something in Sawtucket or we're not doing something at the University of Texas at Austin, I'm worried we're not doing something anywhere.

01:39:57.000 I went to the Institute for Advanced Study to visit friend acquaintance, Nima Arkani Hamed, who I think very, very highly of.

01:40:06.000 He said some pretty wild things.

01:40:09.000 He should be on the show.

01:40:10.000 He's the most bizarre thing in that he's an unbelievable salesman showman who's pathologically honest in a weird way.

01:40:18.000 So that's very unusual characteristics.

01:40:21.000 He made the point, he said, the Casimir effect is an example of negative energy, negative mass energy, where you take two plates that are so close together that quantum waves...

01:40:33.000 Many of the frequencies can't fit between these two plates, and so the pressure outside of them is not counterbalanced by pressure between them, so they get forced together when they're very, very close.

01:40:43.000 And his point is, that's an example of actual negative mass, negative energy, where we pretend that that's not true.

01:40:50.000 He says geckos actually use this when they climb up a wall. 1.00

01:40:53.000 They use the Casimir effect.

01:40:55.000 So it's real.

01:40:56.000 Now, the question, can you harness it?

01:40:58.000 This is always that, you know, you've got UFOs.

01:41:00.000 People who try to think about how you could get physics to do these things focus on the Casimir effect, or they'll focus on negative energy solutions.

01:41:10.000 Now, if you look at that 1957 conference at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, one of the most eminent mathematician physicists, a guy who was first Wrangler at Cambridge, was a guy named Herman Bondi, an Austrian, I think, Mathematician.

01:41:23.000 And his paper is about negative mass in general relativity.

01:41:29.000 Now, I don't know if you've ever heard of this stuff.

01:41:31.000 No.

01:41:33.000 If you have two masses, in general, they always attract each other gravitationally.

01:41:37.000 But what if somehow you had a different kind of mass that was negative, just like you could have negative and positive charges?

01:41:44.000 Well, weirdly, you change two things.

01:41:47.000 You change the force law, F equals MA, and you change the gravitational law, G, you know, F equals GM, first mass times second mass over R squared.

01:41:58.000 So when you change both of those, oddly, the negative mass is still attracted just the same way to the positive mass as if there was no difference.

01:42:06.000 But the positive mass is always repelled.

01:42:08.000 So you get this weird solution where the negative mass chases the positive mass And they go off to like, you know, unbounded acceleration.

01:42:18.000 So Bondi was thinking about why is it that we've got these artificial conditions in general relativity, which we impose by hand.

01:42:27.000 They're not the same beautiful marble that Einstein used for his field equations, but we throw some extra crappy stuff in called positivity conditions to stop general relativity from giving us madness.

01:42:40.000 So Bondi started asking the question, Maybe we shouldn't.

01:42:44.000 Maybe what you think of his madness has meaning.

01:42:49.000 And this is why this conference, which is a confluence of the two families, the Wittens and the DeWitts, with Feynman and Wheeler and all of these unbelievable characters and attendants, Is this pivotal, strange experience, is that people are smoking the ganja on extending general relativity to places that it's never been extended.

01:43:11.000 And the highbrow version of this doesn't work, and the lowbrow version of this doesn't work so far as we know.

01:43:17.000 The lowbrow version is called pseudoscientific antigravity, gravity shielding.

01:43:24.000 Electrogravitics.

01:43:25.000 Gravitodynamics.

01:43:27.000 The highbrow version of this is called quantum gravity.

01:43:30.000 And all the most respectable people are in it, and it doesn't work.

01:43:33.000 And you can't say, why are we doing this if it doesn't work?

01:43:37.000 Why can't I say Ed Witten's great, but he made a terrible blunder?

01:43:42.000 David Gross and Ed Witten should be in front of the community explaining, why did you take all the smartest people, all the resources, all the attention, Michio Kaku.

01:43:54.000 Get Michio Kaku in here with me.

01:43:57.000 Michio Kaku is out of control.

01:44:01.000 Sean Carroll is covering up for this as well.

01:44:04.000 In what way?

01:44:05.000 They are too kind.

01:44:07.000 Brian Greene.

01:44:08.000 Like, I had this interchange with Brian Greene where I said, you know, we're not being honest.

01:44:17.000 About the failure of string theory.

01:44:19.000 And Brian's like, oh, well, maybe we were a little bit exuberant.

01:44:22.000 I blurt out Institute for Arts and Ideas.

01:44:25.000 I blurt out.

01:44:27.000 That's like saying my lie.

01:44:29.000 My lie was irrational exuberance.

01:44:32.000 No, you put a lot of people's careers in the shredder in order to have this quantum gravity experiment, which is like, you know, the people bowing and praying to this thing that doesn't work.

01:44:45.000 The dog doesn't hunt.

01:44:46.000 And anybody who questions it as a crackpot, I'm done with this, Joe.

01:44:51.000 Like, you want to come at me and say, Eric doesn't know what he's talking about?

01:44:55.000 I'm debating physicists.

01:44:56.000 I'll debate anybody with the possible exception of Ed Witten, who still scares me, but I'll probably debate him too.

01:45:02.000 In open forum, we have got to purge The physics community of its quackery, and the quackery is coming from the high-prestige version of this.

01:45:12.000 The high-prestige version of antigravity is called quantum gravity, and it just doesn't work.

01:45:17.000 So, to get back to the UFOs, why is this stuff important?

01:45:25.000 One, I don't know, four years, five years ago, and I was doing this riff on the twin nuclei problem.

01:45:32.000 I said, we've got to get off this planet.

01:45:33.000 I said, we've now become God's butt for the wisdom, and I just threw it off.

01:45:37.000 And you said, focus on that.

01:45:38.000 That's a great saying.

01:45:39.000 Turned out to work.

01:45:42.000 That came true. 0.51

01:45:43.000 The COVID in your lungs probably came out of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and we're lying about it.

01:45:49.000 That is engineering the nucleus of the cell, the nucleic acids that we found the structure of in their functions.

01:45:57.000 Right now, we are screwing around with Vladimir Putin, with nukes, pretending that the sacred borders of Ukraine, which have been fluctuating for centuries, are somehow sacrosanct.

01:46:08.000 And yes, it's terrible that he's invaded.

01:46:12.000 And I do think that the borders shouldn't move, but we really shouldn't have been antagonizing Russia by pretending that there's no concept of a sphere of influence, because I'll tell you, when somebody puts nukes on our border with Mexico in Monterey or Baja, California, we're going to be plenty upset.

01:46:30.000 We now need to leave.

01:46:32.000 And I tried to say that kind of a little bit light, tongue in cheek.

01:46:37.000 Everything's accelerated.

01:46:39.000 Think about our water having broken in the last three years.

01:46:43.000 This is our womb.

01:46:45.000 It's time to go.

01:46:47.000 And in order to have any hope of getting off this planet, you can't leave it to Elon and chemical rockets.

01:46:53.000 Can you imagine that Elon and I do not meet ever?

01:46:57.000 It's like we know a million people in common.

01:46:59.000 He knows that I'm focused on getting off this planet.

01:47:03.000 He's got a chemical rocket company.

01:47:04.000 He's exactly right about almost everything that he's saying up until he gets to the Moon and Mars.

01:47:09.000 Like, who cares?

01:47:10.000 You're not going to terraform the Moon and Mars in the next three years or 30. The only way to really get off this planet is to leave the solar system because those are the only two rocks that are even halfway viable.

01:47:23.000 And if you think about how far away everything is, we've got this thing that I call the Einstein moat.

01:47:28.000 The nearest star, if we took a human traveling at the top speed a human has ever gone at, I think is 100,000 years away at that top speed.

01:47:39.000 So you can fantasize about, oh yeah, we just come up with huge ships and people have multi-generational experience.

01:47:44.000 All of Jewish history is 5,000 years and you're talking about 100,000 years.

01:47:48.000 No way you're going to do this on a ship.

01:47:50.000 Imagine wars on a ship.

01:47:52.000 Exactly.

01:47:53.000 And then you have this next problem, which is, oh, we're going to use time dilation.

01:47:57.000 No, no, we're going to use wormholes. 0.96

01:47:59.000 It's like, yeah, and we're going to bring nunchucks and throwing stars and we're going to be like fucking awesome, dude. 0.95

01:48:04.000 Yeah. 0.91

01:48:06.000 Right?

01:48:06.000 So it's like all these sort of weird edgy stuff inside.

01:48:10.000 Here's what's really happening.

01:48:12.000 We do not live in space-time.

01:48:14.000 This place is not in space-time.

01:48:16.000 There's a saying, the map is not the territory.

01:48:20.000 Space-time is a map.

01:48:22.000 But the territory is wherever we actually live.

01:48:25.000 And space time has so many limitations on it that Newton never placed.

01:48:29.000 So the longer we stay with no advancement in the general theory of relativity, the more we feel that we are imprisoned here.

01:48:36.000 We're not going anywhere.

01:48:37.000 It's all sci-fi. 1.00

01:48:38.000 It's all garbage. 1.00

01:48:41.000 It's children talking about things that aren't true. 1.00

01:48:43.000 Well, bullshit. 0.98

01:48:45.000 Every time you fundamentally push physical theory, you better figure out whether you've got a new neutron or worse, or better. 1.00

01:48:52.000 You're gonna get a lever.

01:48:54.000 Now, my claim, and so everything I've said up until now has been idiosyncratic research, but you can check it online.

01:49:02.000 None of this is something you can't check.

01:49:05.000 I'm now going to put on a different hat when you ask me about you, Eric, because people are going to say crank, crazy, whatever.

01:49:11.000 I'll meet you on the field of battle. 1.00

01:49:13.000 Cut the crap, people. 1.00

01:49:18.000 I am a post-Einsteinian person. 1.00

01:49:21.000 I have not been in a relativistic context for years.

01:49:25.000 And the reason that you get to leave relativity is that you recover relativity from another theory.

01:49:30.000 If you have a theory that includes relativity, You can say, okay, yeah, I know how to see relativity inside the theory, but I can also see other stuff beyond it.

01:49:39.000 And so that's where I work, someplace called geometric unity, because the geometry underneath the standard model and the geometry underneath general relativity is two different geometries called Riemannian and Erismanian.

01:49:51.000 I combined them.

01:49:52.000 That was the point of it.

01:49:54.000 In this thing, there's a very clear idea about how you would go about traveling great distances.

01:50:00.000 And so I found that you still have this thing from the last time I was here two years ago.

01:50:05.000 So this is a model of a space-time metric.

01:50:09.000 And if you think about where these hair ties are on the two rulers...

01:50:13.000 So this is the angle between...

01:50:14.000 For people just listening, there's an adjustable ruler with a sphere or a circle, rather.

01:50:19.000 So two rulers coming out of a protractor.

01:50:22.000 And you can change the angle of the ruler.

01:50:24.000 So whatever I choose this to be is 90 degrees.

01:50:26.000 If I do it like this, that's still 90 degrees or this.

01:50:28.000 That's what an Einsteinian metric is.

01:50:31.000 This hair tie that I can move up and down is going to be the time measurement, like a watch.

01:50:37.000 Did you ever see when I gave Lex my watch?

01:50:39.000 No.

01:50:40.000 So you gave Lex a watch, and I started talking about multiple time dimensions, so I gave him my Fitbit.

01:50:45.000 Anyway.

01:50:47.000 If you want to go a very long distance, one possibility is that you do something very energetically expensive.

01:50:55.000 But the other possibility is grow the ruler to shrink the distance.

01:51:00.000 If the rulers and protractors that Einstein used, and he chose one through his equation, are instead variables and you have full access to them, if I wanted to go a very long distance, the first thing I'd do is grow the ruler to shrink the distance, then go the distance under that ruler,

01:51:16.000 and then I'd shrink the ruler back.

01:51:19.000 So when you talk about things like, oh, these things are behaving like nothing I've ever seen, Well, there are a couple of things that I'm worried about if these things are real.

01:51:29.000 One is, does somebody else know how to grow rulers and shrink rulers and grow watches and shrink watches, speed them up, slow them down, in order to get in control of the thing that we thought was space-time?

01:51:44.000 The next issue is, are there multiple temporal dimensions?

01:51:49.000 So Eric, your friend who's had too much coffee, believes that there are either six or four extra temporal dimensions, and whatever isn't temporal is spatial.

01:52:00.000 So it's either four plus six or six plus four extra dimensions split between time and space.

01:52:06.000 If that's true, try to imagine Extra-dimensional engineers who have full access to something where there's no arrow of time.

01:52:19.000 The only time there's an arrow of time is if time is one-dimensional.

01:52:23.000 If time is two-dimensional, you have a whirlpool of time, which is either clockwise or counterclockwise.

01:52:30.000 If it's three-dimensional, you have a right-hand rule of time, and there's a left-hand rule of time.

01:52:35.000 These are called orientations.

01:52:37.000 My belief is That we may be looking at something that has access to either four or six additional dimensions.

01:52:45.000 And again, I'm reading this off of a page of equations and notes.

01:52:51.000 And so you know what they mean in physical reality.

01:52:53.000 In other words, if this thing on the page is true... 0.99

01:52:57.000 Holy shit. 0.92

01:52:58.000 On the other hand, if it's just some geometry, then you don't worry about it. 0.99

01:53:02.000 You say, okay, well, extra dimensions.

01:53:03.000 I can think in 17 or 3 or what.

01:53:05.000 It doesn't matter.

01:53:06.000 It's not that hard to think of higher dimensions spatially for people who do what I do.

01:53:12.000 Almost none of us can think in multiple temporal dimensions.

01:53:15.000 There's one guy in Los Angeles at USC called Yitzhak Barz, a Turkish Jew, who keeps talking about two-time physics.

01:53:23.000 And I've spoken to him.

01:53:25.000 But multiple temporal dimensions would be a decisive game changer in terms of changing everything that we know about the world.

01:53:32.000 And what would be the technology that someone could use to access that?

01:53:38.000 Because that's the big thing.

01:53:40.000 I know, I know, I know.

01:53:43.000 Think about it.

01:53:44.000 You and I are both old enough to remember cassette tapes and vinyl albums.

01:53:49.000 On a cassette tape, you've played your favorite album all the way through, like Dark Side of the Moon.

01:53:55.000 And you want to play it again.

01:53:57.000 You have to rewind through every song you just played.

01:54:01.000 And you hear...

01:54:02.000 Right?

01:54:03.000 But that doesn't happen on an album.

01:54:06.000 Towards the end of the turntable time...

01:54:09.000 The stylus would pick up, and it would skip over all the stuff that you didn't want to hear again, and it would go back to some track that you did.

01:54:19.000 Imagine you could do that with time.

01:54:21.000 You didn't have to go back through time to go back in time.

01:54:25.000 Do I even know what I mean?

01:54:26.000 Not really.

01:54:27.000 I'm sort of at the edge of where I can actually say things.

01:54:30.000 But you see, all of physics proceeds from the assumption that time is one-dimensional.

01:54:36.000 We have this thing called deterministic propagation.

01:54:39.000 So if you take quantum mechanics, There are really two rules.

01:54:42.000 One is completely deterministic with no probability theory.

01:54:45.000 You've got a system, you know its initial conditions, and you say, if I know the laws of physics, I should be able to figure out where this is.

01:54:52.000 You know, I take this lighter, and I throw it up, and I catch it, and it described a parabola.

01:54:59.000 Okay.

01:55:00.000 Initial condition, propagation, I measure it.

01:55:03.000 It's completely determined by the point of release.

01:55:08.000 In quantum mechanics, you have the second thing called quantum measurement.

01:55:12.000 And that is this weird probabilistic thing that nobody understands.

01:55:15.000 Everybody says, if you think you understand the quantum, you don't understand it, it's mind-blowing, blah, blah, blah.

01:55:21.000 But the first part of it is where we're trying to fit gravity and when we quantize it.

01:55:26.000 I don't think gravity goes in that slot.

01:55:28.000 I think that what you do is you don't quantize gravity, you harmonize gravity.

01:55:32.000 Gravity is the observer.

01:55:36.000 We say, well, when you make an observation, well, who's doing the observation?

01:55:39.000 Is Joe doing the observation?

01:55:40.000 Is Jamie doing the observation?

01:55:41.000 Who's doing this observation?

01:55:42.000 Who has the right to use the second rule for collapsing the state vector with Schrodinger's cat and all entanglement weirdness?

01:55:50.000 Well, I think it's gravity.

01:55:52.000 I think that part of the story is that gravity is the observer through something called a pullback operation.

01:56:00.000 And when you realize that, you realize that you don't naively quantize gravity the way you quantize everything else.

01:56:06.000 In fact, gravity is the only field living on the successor to spacetime, if I'm correct.

01:56:12.000 There are two spaces called X and Y. All the cool stuff in here, the electrons, the quarks that make up everything that you and I are, It's living on Y, except for the metric, the rulers and the protractors, which lives on X, which is how you keep gravity separate.

01:56:29.000 And the unification is the unification of these two things in a structure called a bundle.

01:56:33.000 Now, people will go over this, and I'm sure professors will say, well, this is what Eric was saying. 1.00

01:56:39.000 Well, he's full of shit. 1.00

01:56:40.000 No, no, no, he's actually making a point. 1.00

01:56:43.000 This story about space-time engineering where you don't use the Einstein field equations because you're using the successor theory rather than...

01:56:53.000 In the Einstein theory, the entire planet was pulling on you when you needed to go pee.

01:56:58.000 And your legs, I mean, they're obviously buff, you're fit.

01:57:02.000 You just pulled against an entire planet to get out of your chair.

01:57:05.000 And you won.

01:57:07.000 That's how weak gravity is.

01:57:09.000 That's how space and time is barely bent by all of Earth.

01:57:14.000 Now, you're going to tell me about an Alcubierre warp drive where, okay, no, here's what's going on.

01:57:19.000 The ship is inside of this little bubble of warping.

01:57:22.000 No, it isn't.

01:57:24.000 If somebody's space-time engineering and they can get here from very far away, they're not using general relativity in the standard model, my friends. 0.94

01:57:33.000 They're using a successor theory and we have become pussies. 0.98

01:57:36.000 We are not going to look at successor theories because we've all learned the lesson that everybody who tries to bet against the standard model loses.

01:57:45.000 Everybody who bets against general relativity loses.

01:57:47.000 And this is that speech that Morpheus has to give.

01:57:50.000 It's like, I'm not going to lie to you, Neo.

01:57:52.000 Everyone who's ever faced an agent who stood his ground, you know, has died. 1.00

01:57:56.000 It's like, okay, tough shit. 1.00

01:57:59.000 Now it's time. 1.00

01:58:00.000 Are we Americans?

01:58:01.000 Are we scientists?

01:58:02.000 Are we cowboys?

01:58:03.000 Or, you know, Please tell me we're Travis Pastrana and not some sort of diversity, equity, and inclusion committee.

01:58:11.000 How is it that we move forward?

01:58:14.000 Well, we take the ultimate risk.

01:58:16.000 And what do we do it with?

01:58:17.000 Our credibility.

01:58:18.000 Watch my Wikipedia entry as I try to do this.

01:58:21.000 But what do you think they're using in terms of a technology to achieve these results?

01:58:26.000 And do you think that this is being examined and this is being researched here on Earth?

01:58:33.000 Or do you think we are being visited?

01:58:35.000 I don't know.

01:58:36.000 But I know that if I were the federal government, if I was the Department of Energy, and if I were DARPA, and if I were any of these people, and somebody went on the Joe Rogan experience with millions of viewers and listeners, And started talking like this,

01:58:52.000 I would call them up.

01:58:54.000 One of the last times I went on, not the last time, but the time before that, the FBI called me immediately.

01:59:01.000 You laugh.

01:59:02.000 It's hilarious.

01:59:03.000 It's not that funny.

01:59:05.000 Not to you.

01:59:07.000 I bet it was to the FBI. Watch Eric Weinstein shit his pants. 0.99

01:59:12.000 Well... 0.99

01:59:12.000 Okay. 0.99

01:59:13.000 Why don't you have the Department of Energy call me?

01:59:16.000 I mean...

01:59:17.000 Well, what did they talk to you about?

01:59:19.000 We're concerned about some of the stuff you were saying.

01:59:23.000 I think they thought I sounded revolutionary.

01:59:26.000 Like, it's time for heads on pikes.

01:59:28.000 Oh! 0.60

01:59:30.000 That.

01:59:32.000 Right, because Tulsi would put heads on pikes.

01:59:34.000 Because Tulsi is like...

01:59:37.000 Like Vad the Impaler. 0.79

01:59:39.000 She's going to be going around with a chainsaw, actually cutting people's heads up. 1.00

01:59:43.000 She probably should phrase it differently.

01:59:45.000 Oh, stop.

01:59:45.000 Joe, you say stuff all...

01:59:47.000 You say in MMA, that guy's a straight-up killer. 0.99

01:59:53.000 He's an assassin.

01:59:54.000 You don't get a call from the FBI. No, that's true.

01:59:56.000 That's true.

01:59:57.000 But that is actually a compliment.

02:00:00.000 If you use that for Aaron Blanchfield.

02:00:02.000 In any event.

02:00:03.000 I get occasionally called by somebody from inside.

02:00:08.000 What I think they're doing, first of all, one, we may be faking a UFO situation for reasons that I don't understand.

02:00:15.000 If we are faking a UFO situation, do you think that there's technology that's available to people in the United States that is beyond our current understanding of what's possible?

02:00:28.000 90% no.

02:00:29.000 90% no.

02:00:32.000 Wow.

02:00:32.000 Because it's very hard to imagine physicists continuing to work on nothing for their entire careers.

02:00:40.000 The number of people who are going to be retiring shortly having never actually done physics as a physicist.

02:00:47.000 We're talking about wasted lives.

02:00:49.000 People are going to be very weird when they realize that they blew their entire career.

02:00:55.000 And I believe I can say what many of these problems are.

02:00:58.000 And if you want to humiliate me at a leading university, just ask me to talk.

02:01:01.000 You can put it on video.

02:01:03.000 You don't realize how many things the standard model has subtly wrong when we explain it to people.

02:01:10.000 It's not that the Lagrangian is wrong, not that the rules are wrong, but we say wrong stuff. 0.58

02:01:15.000 We say, like, there are three generations of matter that are only distinguished by mass.

02:01:19.000 In other words, there's three copies of this stuff here.

02:01:23.000 This is like the wood version and then there's the plastic version and then there's the metal version.

02:01:28.000 There aren't three.

02:01:30.000 There are two generations plus an extra imposter generation, which looks like a generation. 0.99

02:01:34.000 I mean, I can get into these things.

02:01:35.000 And that should be a provocation if somebody says, let's call this guy up, have him out and figure out what he's talking about.

02:01:40.000 It doesn't matter.

02:01:41.000 I don't think we're doing physics.

02:01:44.000 What do you think they're doing?

02:01:46.000 I think we are playing paintball rather than going to war and we're giving prizes for generals who command the best paintball army.

02:01:55.000 And then we're referencing everyone else who's actually trying to figure out how to fight to, well, have you submitted to the paintball competition?

02:02:04.000 It's like, no, I don't want to do paintball.

02:02:07.000 I understand that it keeps your skills up.

02:02:09.000 I understand that some of them are transferable.

02:02:11.000 But I mean like you've been in street fights?

02:02:14.000 Not since I was a teenager.

02:02:16.000 Yeah, well I understand.

02:02:16.000 Like I haven't been for a long time.

02:02:20.000 It's different than what you guys do in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

02:02:23.000 There's lots of stuff you're not allowed to do.

02:02:25.000 Yeah.

02:02:25.000 Right.

02:02:26.000 You get in a street fight.

02:02:27.000 It's a completely different thing.

02:02:29.000 Sure.

02:02:31.000 What we're doing is not physics in the same sense.

02:02:34.000 So what they're doing is they're exercising.

02:02:38.000 We're doing safe stuff.

02:02:40.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:02:40.000 They're exercising.

02:02:41.000 And the exercises are keeping people limber.

02:02:44.000 They're keeping people in a fighting mentality.

02:02:47.000 It's not that Brazilian jiu-jitsu has nothing to do with fighting.

02:02:49.000 We've seen people use it in the street for sure, right?

02:02:52.000 But small joint manipulation is part of street fighting.

02:02:56.000 Eye gouging is part of street fighting.

02:02:58.000 Pulling a knife is part of street fighting.

02:03:00.000 These things are not part of any reputable gym that you might go to.

02:03:05.000 I want to do the thing that isn't paintball.

02:03:10.000 And I didn't want to do it up until recently because the danger of unleashing a neutron in the world is so high.

02:03:18.000 Now I realize I'm done with that.

02:03:20.000 You guys are willing to play footsies with Putin?

02:03:22.000 You're not going to survive.

02:03:24.000 You're not the responsible adults I thought you were.

02:03:27.000 Like, if I unleash a neutron and it leads to some sort of proliferation of deadly technology, it's on you.

02:03:34.000 It's not on me.

02:03:36.000 You're already taking risks that you shouldn't be taking.

02:03:40.000 So, if You think 90% sure that this is not coming from here?

02:03:48.000 You believe this because you don't think that the proper science in order to achieve these kind of results is being done by the people that you believe are capable of doing it?

02:03:57.000 That is correct.

02:03:58.000 I know that, for example, when I talk to Nima or when I talk to Juan Maldesena or when I've talked to Natty Cyberg, these people are absolutely brilliant and they don't know the answer unless they're the greatest actors I've ever seen.

02:04:11.000 So the most brilliant physicists are looking at these supposed videos.

02:04:18.000 What is the best, most compelling...

02:04:20.000 No, no, no.

02:04:20.000 Sorry, that's the UFO stuff.

02:04:21.000 What are you talking about, then?

02:04:22.000 They're not talking about things that can extend Einstein.

02:04:27.000 Therefore, to get back to your technology question, might have engineering applications, because it's the engineering applications that are terrifying.

02:04:36.000 The discovery of the neutron was one thing.

02:04:38.000 The Teller-Ulam design was its weaponization. 1.00

02:04:42.000 So suddenly, you know, you can do the Tsar bomb or Castle Bravo, these unbelievable explosions, which...

02:04:51.000 Like, the difference between...

02:04:53.000 There were Civil War veterans who saw action in the Civil War who lived to see Ivy Mike in the Pacific.

02:05:02.000 So the Civil War was almost a thermonuclear war in terms of human scale.

02:05:07.000 It's less than 100 years different.

02:05:10.000 Right?

02:05:12.000 People have forgotten how terrifying, important, wonderful, jaw-dropping and awesome physics is because it hasn't done anything that completely screws your mind.

02:05:22.000 Like Hiroshima or Nagasaki. 0.70

02:05:25.000 Or Castle Bravo.

02:05:27.000 With Castle Bravo.

02:05:28.000 That was the test in the Pacific where we thought it was going to be like controlled and like or was starfish where we did an atmospheric explosion over Hawaii and then the Russians like hold my beer. 0.78

02:05:41.000 Yeah.

02:05:42.000 You know, we remember I'm the guy five years ago who was saying we need above-ground nuclear tests because all you people have lost your fear like yes Eric is crazy, but he's correct.

02:05:56.000 What's this one?

02:05:58.000 That's Castle Bravo. 1.00

02:05:59.000 Oh shit. 0.99

02:05:59.000 Oh my god. 0.99

02:06:02.000 Right.

02:06:03.000 So they detonated in that facility and they expected it to be far smaller than it was?

02:06:08.000 Yeah, they detonated in the Pacific.

02:06:10.000 Right.

02:06:12.000 But it's right next to that facility that was in the video.

02:06:14.000 Yeah.

02:06:15.000 Was that the facility that was initially filmed?

02:06:18.000 Yeah.

02:06:19.000 What is this facility?

02:06:19.000 That's it.

02:06:20.000 Was it Inawak?

02:06:22.000 I forget.

02:06:23.000 Atoll.

02:06:25.000 So, like, we just— It's crazy how long ago that was and how close it was to the Civil War, if you really put it in that context.

02:06:32.000 Well, this is what I'm trying to say, is what I'm trying to tell you— Look at that.

02:06:39.000 That's so insane.

02:06:40.000 Have you done this in Oculus?

02:06:42.000 No, I have not.

02:06:43.000 I highly recommend it.

02:06:44.000 They're not going to let us do a nuke above ground so that we can save ourselves by fear.

02:06:49.000 Oh, look at that.

02:06:52.000 This is religious stuff, Joe.

02:06:54.000 Yeah, it is religious stuff.

02:06:55.000 We have announced...

02:06:58.000 If somebody is listening to these tests that we did...

02:07:02.000 My belief is, very shortly before you get the ability to traverse the cosmos, if that is possible, if that is possible, you let off and nuke.

02:07:14.000 Right?

02:07:15.000 Yeah.

02:07:15.000 It's like, you know, you've had kids.

02:07:19.000 There's some stuff that happens right before they figure out how to break out of the crib.

02:07:22.000 You know, that's part of UFO folklore, too.

02:07:26.000 Fat Man and Little Boy.

02:07:27.000 That's a big part of UFO, that once they drop those, that's when all the UFOs started appearing.

02:07:33.000 So the question is, you know, the analogy I give, so I talked to Avi about the following thing.

02:07:41.000 I am a fan of something I call the doubly scientific method.

02:07:45.000 The usual scientific method makes a hidden assumption that it never voices, which is if we're going to study orcas, we assume that we are smarter than orcas.

02:07:53.000 Or if we're going to study cephalopods, right, like an octopus, we think we're smarter.

02:08:00.000 And what do we do?

02:08:01.000 We disguise ourselves.

02:08:03.000 We create artificial environments.

02:08:05.000 We do all sorts of crazy things based on the fact that we're smarter than what we study, from everything from rocks to orcas.

02:08:13.000 The doubly scientific method says, okay, assume that you're studying a rat in a maze, but you yourself are the rat in somebody else's maze.

02:08:21.000 Now you have to look up the intelligence scale, not just down.

02:08:26.000 And in the doubly scientific method, you have to assume that whatever is studying you is hiding from you the way you are hiding from your subjects.

02:08:33.000 So if you see somebody in a duck blind, for example, and he's studying ducks, you understand that somebody may be hiding from you.

02:08:40.000 And they might be able to use multiple dimensions of time.

02:08:43.000 They might be able to cloak themselves and disguise themselves.

02:08:45.000 Or, for example, if you take microscopic UFOs, this glass, this cup, It has a radius of r and a circumference of 2 pi r.

02:08:56.000 The disk that it spans is pi r squared in area.

02:09:00.000 But if you look at this cup, it's much larger than pi r squared because we pushed it out.

02:09:05.000 You could have a sphere where if you could cheaply engineer spacetime, not through the Einstein field equations, but through the successor theory that recovers Einstein, you could have an entire stadium inside of a tennis ball.

02:09:19.000 Just the way this cup doesn't blow your mind until you realize that its area is much greater than pi r squared.

02:09:26.000 Why look for a giant floating thing in the sky?

02:09:29.000 If you could bend space and time and you could play with the rulers the way I'm saying, I would put this in a tiny little profile.

02:09:38.000 Whoa.

02:09:40.000 So we're only looking at it in terms of our understanding of the distance between objects, planets, gravity.

02:09:49.000 We're looking at that.

02:09:51.000 All that stuff where if it didn't exist.

02:09:54.000 If somehow or another we lived in some contained environment and we had no concept of space whatsoever and then we gained access to it, we would be unbelievably overwhelmed.

02:10:03.000 If you lived in some sort of underground facility your entire life and then one day you got a chance to go outside and see the Keck Observatory in Hawaii in a clear night with no moon, you would be overwhelmed.

02:10:17.000 You wouldn't be able to believe that the world was as big as it really was or that the universe was as big as it was.

02:10:23.000 Yeah, it's an impedance mismatch.

02:10:25.000 If you watch meteor showers the way my family does, it's religious.

02:10:32.000 It's transformational.

02:10:34.000 It's transcendent.

02:10:35.000 The problem, as you know, from the default mode network, right, is that mostly what your brain is doing is not communicating information but screening information.

02:10:46.000 Your eyes, your fovea is precious because that's the thing that can resolve at very high levels.

02:10:51.000 But I can barely see Jamie out of the corner of my eye because my peripheral vision can't be at the same level as my fovea.

02:10:57.000 I'd be overwhelmed.

02:11:00.000 So we're talking about tapping in to a picture of the world that we are not...

02:11:05.000 Our brain is not prepared for the idea that time is multidimensional.

02:11:10.000 That was the whole point of giving Lex another watch.

02:11:14.000 We don't have a way to think about it.

02:11:15.000 I'll meet you at 5.15 and 12.30 according to two different scales of time.

02:11:21.000 Or, for example, time and space, if I'm correct, the 14-dimensional manifold that has all the quantum going on on it is split probably seven in seven dimensions because we have six extra time dimensions and four extra space.

02:11:34.000 Add six to one and three to four and you get seven.

02:11:38.000 So space and time are...

02:11:41.000 Interchangeable.

02:11:41.000 There's a duality between them.

02:11:43.000 All of this stuff is like, you know, okay, it's how you hit on chicks in a bar. 1.00

02:11:49.000 Hey, let me tell you something about space and time you never thought about.

02:11:52.000 Oh my God, does that work?

02:11:54.000 What?

02:11:55.000 Worked for me.

02:11:58.000 That's why I'm not in better shape.

02:11:59.000 So, do you think, now when you were talking about these people that keep manana-ing you and not giving you access to whatever they're talking about, do you think they're talking about some sort of an engineering solution to this type of technology?

02:12:17.000 I haven't met anyone in striking distance in three years.

02:12:20.000 So, how could they have something that's going to change your way of looking?

02:12:25.000 Is it possible that you've missed something?

02:12:28.000 I can just be wrong, first of all.

02:12:31.000 This is my life's work, right?

02:12:33.000 What's the way they phrased it to you?

02:12:35.000 Which part?

02:12:36.000 The part about it changing the way you see the world.

02:12:39.000 Oh.

02:12:40.000 Eric, I'll complain about data.

02:12:43.000 That's not the data we have.

02:12:45.000 What we've been showing the public is downsampled, meaning it's fuzzier, it's low resolution.

02:12:53.000 Like, how clear is it?

02:12:54.000 As clear as you want.

02:12:56.000 How clear are you that there's something to see?

02:12:58.000 You can see it with your own eyes.

02:13:02.000 There's no question. 0.99

02:13:03.000 If I was you, I'd just shut the fuck up and let them show me. 0.99

02:13:07.000 I'd be like, let's go. 0.99

02:13:08.000 I'm not under any NDA. I know, but I'm saying, I... But you want to know...

02:13:13.000 I want to know.

02:13:13.000 Yeah, but I want to know in a different...

02:13:15.000 Look, my life's work is a theory.

02:13:17.000 It's one theory.

02:13:18.000 My entire life is really about one theory, okay?

02:13:21.000 Like, I do this entertainment thing, and I talk to people and all this stuff. 0.99

02:13:25.000 Bullshit. 0.96

02:13:25.000 Really what I am is an academic who realized that you can't do academics inside of the university system and watch it disintegrate into madness as we speak. 0.96

02:13:33.000 I figured this out a long time ago.

02:13:39.000 I want to know whether this is right or wrong so much better, so much more that I want to know whether UFOs exist.

02:13:45.000 UFOs to me are an indication of whether I'm right or wrong.

02:13:50.000 You see, it's data.

02:13:51.000 It's an input to me.

02:13:53.000 So if you're right, that means?

02:13:55.000 If we have a future, it means we can leave not the planet but the solar system.

02:14:00.000 The cosmos are traversable.

02:14:02.000 If we can leave, anything else can visit.

02:14:06.000 If you look at the entirety of the universe and you imagine that ultimately there are societies that destroy themselves because they get atomic weapons before they figure out how to leave, some societies are smarter than that.

02:14:19.000 And they'll be able to leave and colonize the cosmos. 0.68

02:14:22.000 And for them not to be here would be madness.

02:14:25.000 So if you've heard my analogy...

02:14:29.000 There is an island in the Andaman chain called North Sentinel Island.

02:14:33.000 I know it well.

02:14:35.000 Yeah.

02:14:35.000 North Sentinel Island is my model, potentially, of us.

02:14:39.000 We are the North Sentinelese.

02:14:41.000 The 39 people that are direct descendants of people who left Africa 60,000 years ago.

02:14:46.000 Right.

02:14:47.000 We don't know if there's 39 or 300. They kill everybody who lands there, essentially.

02:14:53.000 There's a story that we actually buggered them.

02:14:55.000 An English person buggered them, which is why they don't want anyone landing. 1.00

02:14:59.000 There actually are some very weird videos where we throw them coconuts because coconuts don't occur in their island, and we actually have non-hostile contact.

02:15:06.000 But the most important part of it is India.

02:15:10.000 They do not know that they are claimed by something called India.

02:15:14.000 And they don't know that they have a Fermi problem because India won't let anyone land unless they break the law. 0.99

02:15:20.000 So the great filter of North Sentinel Island is a model for why don't we see anybody?

02:15:26.000 Why aren't we clear?

02:15:27.000 Does India exist at some sort of UFO level?

02:15:32.000 Now, this is the doubly scientific method.

02:15:34.000 You can laugh at it, but then would you laugh at the North Sentinelese who are smart enough to say, I wonder if there's another society that's screening everybody from landing here? 1.00

02:15:44.000 Now, what happens on North Sentinel Island if you're watching it and all these people with loincloths or no loincloths and spears and arrows and stupid stuff, suddenly you start hearing radio signals coming out of North Sentinel Island.

02:15:56.000 You're like, what?

02:15:58.000 Then you see a little mushroom cloud in the northeast of the island.

02:16:01.000 Then you see little boats that start exploring around that seem to be propelled internally.

02:16:06.000 You're like, are they burning the leaves?

02:16:07.000 Have they invented internal combustion?

02:16:09.000 At some point with the mushroom cloud, India says enough is enough.

02:16:12.000 We cannot afford to let the North Sentinelese be treated as some sort of backwards people who don't have anything developed that scares us.

02:16:20.000 That's a mushroom cloud, man.

02:16:22.000 That's time to go in.

02:16:24.000 I see.

02:16:26.000 Right?

02:16:26.000 So my claim is that you're not used to the doubly scientific method because there's been no reason to have a doubly scientific method.

02:16:32.000 Do you believe that the orcas are smarter?

02:16:34.000 Possibly.

02:16:35.000 There aren't that many species that are really smarter than us. 1.00

02:16:38.000 Look at all the shit we do. 1.00

02:16:40.000 There aren't many that are dumber than us either. 1.00

02:16:42.000 But not my point. 0.99

02:16:44.000 Those sorts of models...

02:16:46.000 Are what distinguish people who are going to get called crazy but aren't because it's an obvious point.

02:16:52.000 You have to account for this possibility that there's something called India up in the skies that doesn't want anyone landing here.

02:16:59.000 Right.

02:17:00.000 Who's monitoring what's going on and they're not going to be infinitely patient if they exist.

02:17:06.000 Now, if that's true and we can leave and we can't civilize ourselves and we bring this mad technology with us, this ability to destroy, I personally feel responsible in a way that my colleagues don't.

02:17:19.000 They have these ideas like, oh, I'm a physicist.

02:17:21.000 It's just fun.

02:17:22.000 It's really interesting.

02:17:23.000 It's a bunch of puzzles.

02:17:24.000 My feeling is you doomed the human race and you don't feel responsible for building a lifeboat, for saving us, for like... 0.98

02:17:36.000 What kind of a sociopath are you? 0.72

02:17:39.000 Like, I'm not even a physicist, Joe. 0.98

02:17:41.000 And I feel responsible.

02:17:44.000 And this gets back, you know, to some weird stuff about...

02:17:49.000 So they're not thinking about that.

02:17:51.000 They're thinking about the equations they're working on.

02:17:52.000 They're thinking about the puzzles they're trying to solve.

02:17:54.000 It's fun.

02:17:55.000 I get to play.

02:17:56.000 Universe this and puzzle that.

02:17:59.000 And it's just like, please.

02:18:00.000 It's not...

02:18:01.000 Do they not think of a way to leave the Earth because they don't think it's a surmountable...

02:18:08.000 Correct.

02:18:09.000 They live in space-time.

02:18:10.000 They've crawled into the map, the prison built by Einstein.

02:18:14.000 And they know that it's not right.

02:18:18.000 Because there are these two singularities.

02:18:20.000 There's this singularity at the beginning of time, which we call the Big Bang, assuming that time were one-dimensional.

02:18:25.000 And it's part of something called the Friedman-Robertson-Walker space-time model.

02:18:30.000 And there's another one at the bottom of the black hole called the Schwarzschild singularity.

02:18:34.000 And the fact that space and time kink at these two points is an indication that we have something wrong to a mathematician or a physicist.

02:18:43.000 It says, your equations work pretty well right up into the point Where there's some error that you have that you don't understand and you have a division by zero error.

02:18:54.000 And if you could figure out your error, you don't know what sin you committed, but the way that you know you committed a sin is that you have a singularity.

02:19:00.000 So they know that there's some successor theory.

02:19:03.000 And they'll give lectures about space-time is doomed and I'm going to talk about non-commutative geometry.

02:19:08.000 But these are all ways of avoiding the fact that you haven't done your homework for 50 years.

02:19:11.000 Okay?

02:19:12.000 So like there's some class that you're supposed to show up to and you haven't been in a long time.

02:19:16.000 You don't want to show up and suddenly say, what?

02:19:19.000 What's going on?

02:19:22.000 That's what's happening.

02:19:23.000 They're living inside of Einstein's model.

02:19:26.000 So when you say something, they'll say, well, that's impossible because you can't go faster than the speed of light.

02:19:30.000 And it's like, That's a space-time concept.

02:19:33.000 That's an Einsteinian concept.

02:19:34.000 You're not thinking post-Einsteinian.

02:19:36.000 You're not thinking about recovering Einstein, or Einstein is what we would call an effective theory.

02:19:40.000 You're thinking that you really live in space-time, so you know what you can do.

02:19:44.000 And then you fold your arms and say, well, that's impossible.

02:19:46.000 It's like, no, you have a limited map.

02:19:49.000 You think that Greenland is the same size as South America.

02:19:55.000 Okay, then as far as its application, What could you imagine would be a way that someone could actually apply these laws, these theories?

02:20:09.000 So imagine for the moment – this goes back to – let me put my Eric, the science person, doing his own theory, right?

02:20:19.000 This is my thing that I tried to give you last time I was here.

02:20:25.000 If we imagine that there are two spaces, and one of them is 14-dimensional, and one of them is 4-dimensional, and gravity connects them, that is the metric, the gadget, think of a phonograph.

02:20:39.000 The record is like the 14-dimensional world.

02:20:43.000 And are you a Doors fan?

02:20:44.000 Yeah.

02:20:45.000 Okay, so you've got Doors 1, break on through to the other side, is on the same side as Soul Kitchen.

02:20:52.000 You don't hear Break On Through to the Other Side or Soul Kitchen simultaneously.

02:20:57.000 They're both there on the record.

02:21:01.000 The phonograph, imagine you're doing it on a Victrola somehow.

02:21:05.000 You're retro.

02:21:07.000 You're listening to that record in four dimensions, but it's a 14-dimensional record.

02:21:12.000 So you and I are playing back a 14-dimensional quantum world, but we're only playing back slices of it.

02:21:20.000 So the illusion is that we're having a four-dimensional conversation because the Victrola part, that phone, his master's voice, is the four-dimensional thing.

02:21:28.000 And what's the stylus?

02:21:30.000 It's the metric.

02:21:31.000 It's gravity.

02:21:33.000 The stylus is pulling off different data That is simultaneously existing.

02:21:38.000 So it's like the record is the multiverse, but you don't think of it in these terms.

02:21:42.000 You don't freak out and say, oh my god, I'm holding the multiverse because Light My Fire is somewhat adjacent to Soul Kitchen.

02:21:50.000 That is my structure.

02:21:53.000 That's what I believe is true.

02:21:54.000 And we're having the discussion as if it's only the phonograph, the Victrola part.

02:22:02.000 If you could then go to the record...

02:22:05.000 You don't have to scratch your way back.

02:22:07.000 You can do these weird moves where you can alight the stylus in different places and shrink things and grow things and change the angles and all this stuff.

02:22:17.000 And you have engineering possibilities.

02:22:19.000 I will say what I believe the internal properties of the particles that we have yet to find, the dark matter, if you will.

02:22:29.000 I will tell you places that I believe the standard model is wrong.

02:22:32.000 And I'm happy to go down on the ship and move on with my life if I'm wrong.

02:22:36.000 But I can't...

02:22:37.000 I've been 40 years trying to have this conversation with a competent person.

02:22:41.000 And every excuse under the sun is used to avoid talking about what I'm saying.

02:22:47.000 And I'll say some stuff that...

02:22:49.000 When I... In 1987 around, I proposed a set of equations that were like the junior version of geometric unity.

02:23:00.000 I was told that those equations were insufficiently nonlinear, that they involve spinners, and spinners have nothing to do with something called self-duality, that I'd violated the spin statistics theorem, a whole bunch of things.

02:23:15.000 And I was invited to leave Harvard.

02:23:18.000 Where they said, you have to move out of Massachusetts.

02:23:21.000 You cannot live in Massachusetts.

02:23:23.000 And I said, you don't have the right to tell me where I can live.

02:23:25.000 That's not part of our agreement.

02:23:30.000 They said, well, if you want to continue in this department, you have to move out of Massachusetts.

02:23:35.000 What was the reasoning behind that?

02:23:38.000 They thought I was wrong and crazy.

02:23:41.000 Let me keep going.

02:23:45.000 In 1994...

02:23:47.000 Ed Witten is giving a lecture in the main seminar room in Building 2 in the MIT Math Department, where I am now a postdoc under a National Science Foundation Fellowship.

02:24:00.000 So I had gone through huge trouble and I crawled back on top.

02:24:06.000 And Ed Witten says the self-duality revolution, which is related to Jim Simon's work, which I was saying before, He says, theoretically, you don't have to deal with these super complicated equations anymore.

02:24:18.000 He doesn't say what replaces them.

02:24:21.000 A guy named, I think, Alan Knudsen, who's now at Cornell, I think raises his hand like a punk and he says, do you want to tell us what equations we would use instead?

02:24:32.000 Ed Witten writes down these two sets – these set of two equations.

02:24:37.000 I look at them and I say, Those are the equations that I proposed at Harvard in like five years ago or seven years ago.

02:24:46.000 And I said, huh, that's really interesting.

02:24:49.000 He's about to get told that they're insufficiently nonlinear, that they involve spinners, which can't possibly involve self-duality, and that he's violated spin statistics.

02:24:57.000 And I'm looking forward to watching what happens when Ed Witten is told this.

02:25:03.000 A couple weeks later, I'm at the MIT commissary with Is Singer and the math physics group, and a guy named András Senes, a Hungarian brilliant guy, now in Geneva, I think, says, have you heard the news?

02:25:18.000 He comes by.

02:25:19.000 He says, what news?

02:25:20.000 All of Donaldson theory and self-dual equations is falling.

02:25:25.000 It's like, what?

02:25:26.000 It's like, they were using the wrong equations.

02:25:29.000 Everything has become trivially easy.

02:25:32.000 Can you bring up an article called Gauge Theory is Dead, Long Live Gauge Theory?

02:25:39.000 So, like, I didn't want to tell these stories the last time.

02:25:44.000 This is like super painful, but I'm done with this stuff.

02:25:46.000 I'm just completely done with this.

02:25:50.000 You see, there was this thing called the self-dual equations, which Isidore Singer brought to Michael Atiyah and Nigel Hitchin. 0.95

02:26:00.000 Oh, the other one was, if spinners were involved, Nigel Hitchin would know and he would have told us, which is bullshit. 0.87

02:26:06.000 Keep going to the next page. 0.95

02:26:09.000 The new gauge there.

02:26:11.000 You see those two equations?

02:26:12.000 DA of phi equals zero.

02:26:13.000 I had written psi rather than phi.

02:26:16.000 Phi has to do with...

02:26:17.000 The spin of the field.

02:26:19.000 But FA plus equals I. I had written these things down in a slightly different form and had been effectively laughed out of Harvard for this.

02:26:29.000 And it turns out that what was going on was Ed Witten had written these things down and now all of these people were converted.

02:26:40.000 And a lecture is given at room 507 in the Harvard Math Department on the fifth floor across from the office of a guy named Raoul Bott, who is absolutely not my advisor, but the internet is determined to make him my advisor.

02:26:51.000 It's making me really upset.

02:26:53.000 Raoul Bott is my hero, but he was not my advisor.

02:26:57.000 He's a great man, and you shouldn't do that to him, and you shouldn't do that to me.

02:27:02.000 So I go to this lecture, and the person giving it was really the closest thing I had to an advisor, if it's not a guy named Jor Barnatan, is the brother of somebody you've had on your program.

02:27:13.000 You've had Gary Taubes on your program.

02:27:16.000 His brother is named Clifford Taubes.

02:27:19.000 And Clifford Taubes had picked a fight with Princeton.

02:27:25.000 And he had said, you know, these guys at Princeton, we work our asses off to get these results in Donaldson theory.

02:27:31.000 These equations are so hard.

02:27:33.000 And then always after the fact, Princeton tells us what we're really doing.

02:27:36.000 Thanks, guy.

02:27:37.000 So it's a fight between Cambridge and Princeton.

02:27:40.000 And now he's got to eat crow.

02:27:43.000 Okay?

02:27:44.000 So he's giving this lecture and he titles it Witten's Magical Equations.

02:27:48.000 This is the same guy who tells me that I can't live in Massachusetts in 1987. And he's going on.

02:27:57.000 He's like saying, this is the greatest day of my life.

02:27:59.000 I was in prison.

02:28:01.000 I was working at hard labor for 10 years.

02:28:03.000 These equations make everything trivially easy.

02:28:05.000 I am sitting in the back row of room 507 picking my nose.

02:28:09.000 And a guy in the front seat on the right-hand side is named David Kajdan, one of the most brilliant people on the planet.

02:28:15.000 And he usually falls asleep during the lecture.

02:28:17.000 He's like a Soviet Jew who got through the anti-Semitic system at Moscow State. 0.62

02:28:21.000 Like, unbelievable mind.

02:28:22.000 And he says, excuse me, Cliff, didn't we have a student at some point who told us to look at the spinner bundles and maybe these equations?

02:28:31.000 And Cliff goes white as a ghost, and I'm picking my nose, right nostril, and the entire room swivels and looks at me.

02:28:38.000 And then I realize, like, everybody actually remembers what I was saying, and my thesis is on the spinner bundles, all this stuff.

02:28:46.000 And I have this question, do I tell them the whole theory?

02:28:51.000 And I left mathematics at that moment.

02:28:54.000 I just decided, I can't trust you people.

02:28:58.000 Cliff knows the answer.

02:28:59.000 Cliff is supposed to say, you know, Eric told me to look at that.

02:29:04.000 And he won't do it.

02:29:05.000 He's sitting there giving the credit not even to Seiberg and Witten, who are the two people who do these equations.

02:29:09.000 He's giving the whole thing to Witten because he's scared.

02:29:13.000 Because he's apologizing.

02:29:14.000 He's saying, I screwed up.

02:29:15.000 I doubted you, Princeton.

02:29:17.000 Princeton was right.

02:29:18.000 Harvard was wrong.

02:29:19.000 New Jersey beats Massachusetts. 1.00

02:29:21.000 Tough shit. 1.00

02:29:22.000 That's the way it goes. 1.00

02:29:23.000 But Massachusetts actually had an entrant in that game, and that was me.

02:29:29.000 And then Isidore Singer writes somewhere in one of his papers, you know, I learned about this years ago before from Eric Weinstein, a paper with Cano and Ballyu.

02:29:43.000 So this was my trajectory.

02:29:44.000 This is why I left mathematics in part because I realized that there was just no honor.

02:29:48.000 There was no way of...

02:29:51.000 Making a name and – like people are just going to give away my stuff.

02:29:55.000 So when I did this draft of GU, I said I'm an entertainer.

02:29:59.000 People don't have any clue why.

02:30:01.000 It's because I have copyright protection.

02:30:03.000 If I release a work of entertainment, you can't just name it after yourself or your friend or whoever you're upset with.

02:30:10.000 It might hurt you.

02:30:11.000 It's like that's mine.

02:30:13.000 It's my work of entertainment.

02:30:14.000 I own the Portal podcast. 1.00

02:30:16.000 Tough shit. 0.99

02:30:20.000 Now, all that is long in the past. 0.99

02:30:22.000 I don't want the Cyborg-Witten equations, which is what they're now called.

02:30:25.000 Natty Cyborg and I have worked this out years ago at a meeting in San Francisco.

02:30:30.000 He got $3 million.

02:30:31.000 I forced him to give me a hug in front of the Institute for Advanced Study, call it even.

02:30:36.000 This is so much bigger than this.

02:30:38.000 Those things, the Cyborg-Witten equations, is the barest thumbnail of what's coming. 1.00

02:30:45.000 And If we don't use this stuff, we're doomed here with Xi and Biden and Kamala and Trump and Putin and Zelensky and Khomeini and all of these idiots. 0.99

02:31:01.000 We're not going to make it. 0.99

02:31:05.000 What I work on, where I've disappeared, where's the portal?

02:31:08.000 You know, it's like...

02:31:11.000 Do you notice how everything that you love gets destroyed?

02:31:14.000 Jordan Peterson, Brett Weinstein, Sam Harris, even Lex Friedman.

02:31:19.000 They go after Lex Friedman after I warn Lex they're going to come for you because of his reading list and because they misportray him as if he's claiming to be an MIT professor, which he's never claimed in his life.

02:31:30.000 They destroy all of us if we don't sing from the hymnal.

02:31:35.000 This is so important to me because it's hope.

02:31:37.000 If I'm wrong, then maybe we don't have a way off this planet.

02:31:41.000 Maybe we don't have a way to the solar system, out of the solar system.

02:31:44.000 That's bad news.

02:31:47.000 What would be the technology that would harness this?

02:31:51.000 You would figure out how to do the stuff on the record rather than the phonograph, the Victrola.

02:31:59.000 You would start to move the space-time metric, you would move along the directions of the metric not using the Einstein field equations.

02:32:07.000 So you would try to figure out, okay, if we're in flatland here, a four-dimensional slice of a 14-dimensional world, how do I go what we – I have to say it in my own language – along the 10-dimensional normal bundle?

02:32:20.000 In other words, 14 equals four dimensions we know plus 10 we don't.

02:32:23.000 Call the 10 we don't the normal bundle.

02:32:25.000 You'd start navigating in the normal bundle.

02:32:28.000 You'd stop thinking about the sound coming out of the Victrola.

02:32:31.000 You'd say that's three components.

02:32:33.000 There's a stylus, there's a horn, and there's a record.

02:32:37.000 And you'd engineer around that so that you had a really efficient way to go very far or to circle back in time without going back through time.

02:32:46.000 You'd try to figure out, what can I do with the stylus?

02:32:49.000 Where can I put the stylus on the record to get different...

02:32:52.000 And what technology would you employ?

02:32:55.000 To do that.

02:32:56.000 Well, so first of all, we know about three families of matter.

02:33:01.000 Like, this is made...

02:33:02.000 Everything you see around you is made of the first family of matter. 0.94

02:33:04.000 It's all up quarks, down quarks, electrons, and you and I are being penetrated, as much as that's very distasteful, by neutrinos.

02:33:11.000 That's the first family of matter, okay?

02:33:14.000 Then there's a second family, where the up and down quarks are replaced by charm and strange.

02:33:18.000 The neutrino is replaced by the muon neutrino.

02:33:20.000 The electron is replaced by the muon.

02:33:23.000 And then there's a third one, where the muon is replaced by the tau, top, bottom, and tau neutrinos, okay?

02:33:30.000 If I'm correct, there are two additional There are families of matter that are not generations.

02:33:40.000 They don't have the same structure as the ones we already know.

02:33:43.000 Some of them are something called spin three halves and some of them are exotic spin one half matter.

02:33:48.000 So first of all, if you have dark matter that you have no idea of, you can't do dark chemistry.

02:33:53.000 But if you do have an idea, then you can guess at what dark chemistry would be.

02:33:58.000 You'll have dark light.

02:34:01.000 Everything you see here is spun left-handed if it's matter and spun right-handed if it's antimatter.

02:34:09.000 My claim is we are decoupled from matter that spins right and antimatter that spins left, but in a low gravitational environment.

02:34:19.000 It's like my left and my right hand don't know each other.

02:34:22.000 So you have the asymmetry of a hand, which is you say, oh, digits two and four look like each other.

02:34:29.000 The middle finger is the axis of symmetry.

02:34:32.000 And unfortunately, the pinky and the thumb look wildly different.

02:34:35.000 But let's fudge it and imagine there's a symmetry.

02:34:38.000 Suddenly you realize neurologically you're disconnected and it's thumb to thumb on a different hand you didn't know anything about.

02:34:45.000 So my claim is I believe that this world that appears to have a left-handed or right-handed nature, like Cindy Crawford has a beauty mark so you know whether a photo is of her or her mirror image.

02:34:56.000 There's like another Cindy Crawford with the beauty mark on the other side. 1.00

02:35:03.000 Sorry, I'm dating myself, people.

02:35:05.000 But that world would have engineering possibilities to do dark chemistry. 0.99

02:35:10.000 We would have additional forces.

02:35:14.000 Normally, we get additional forces through something called grand unification, where we use theories called SU5 and spin 10 or SO10. And those are the wrong flavors of the right idea.

02:35:25.000 The right flavor would be called spin 6, 4, and SU5 would be replaced by SU3, 2. So there would be new unifications, new forces.

02:35:35.000 It would produce new problems, because when you put that comma, you know, 3, 2...

02:35:40.000 You create something that is more space-timey than particle physics.

02:35:44.000 So there's stuff we don't know how to deal with.

02:35:47.000 But you see, there's nothing in the laws of physics that say the rules of the universe will conform to what particle theorists currently know how to handle.

02:35:57.000 Nature seems to know things we don't know how to do.

02:36:00.000 And the time has ended for us to tell nature, you can't have this or you must have that because we don't know how to handle you otherwise.

02:36:07.000 Tough luck.

02:36:08.000 The forces are different.

02:36:10.000 The opportunities are different.

02:36:11.000 Something called the Petit Salam theory of grand unification is tied to the Einstein theory.

02:36:18.000 And what I want to do is to say, can I get people, lawyers, guns and money, To investigate this so that we can go traverse the cosmos.

02:36:28.000 I don't know how to do the engineering any more than the person who invented the neutron.

02:36:33.000 Was it Chadwick or was the one who found it?

02:36:35.000 He wasn't Lise Meitner who figured out the chain reaction and she wasn't Enrico Fermi who figured out how to do it experimentally.

02:36:43.000 That wasn't Trinity which was the Manhattan Project and they weren't Teller and Ulam.

02:36:47.000 So it's not on Eric to figure out how to do the engineering project.

02:36:51.000 I need people.

02:36:52.000 What could you imagine would be involved in figuring out a way to harness that and actually utilize it and actually go interdimensionally?

02:37:05.000 What would you have to do?

02:37:07.000 What kind of power would have to be generated?

02:37:11.000 What would be involved?

02:37:12.000 So what wouldn't be involved is getting an entire planet to put a tiny dent in space-time, because that's not going to work.

02:37:21.000 It would be a question of saying, I know about more degrees of freedom.

02:37:25.000 Are those degrees of freedom accessible?

02:37:27.000 And to give you an idea of what's involved, if you take a proton with two up quarks and a down quark, so put two U's and a D inside of a ball you call a proton, you're tempted to say, okay, if those are hard little balls inside, I want to pull one out.

02:37:41.000 It doesn't work.

02:37:43.000 The equations have something that used to be called slavery, but we're not allowed to say the word slavery because of diversity, equity, inclusion.

02:37:50.000 I'm going to say slavery because I'm here.

02:37:52.000 You cannot pull a quark out of a proton.

02:37:55.000 So what looks like a degree of freedom is not accessible to you.

02:38:00.000 In the equations, you see up quarks and down quarks.

02:38:03.000 You don't see protons and neutrons.

02:38:04.000 But the consequence of the equations is protons and neutrons, right?

02:38:11.000 So when you look at the equations, you can't tell, is that accessible or inaccessible?

02:38:16.000 To bring it back to the UFO point, the reason UFOs matter to me is if they're here, then these degrees of freedom are accessible.

02:38:24.000 And if they're not here, then it's probably like protons being filled with up quarks and down quarks that we can't engineer.

02:38:31.000 The consequences of quark structure inside of the atom, industrially, are zero.

02:38:38.000 We've been at this since you were born, what, 67?

02:38:41.000 Mm-hmm.

02:38:42.000 The year after you're born, we find quarks.

02:38:44.000 We have zero industrial applications.

02:38:48.000 All right?

02:38:49.000 That means you have to think about both possibilities.

02:38:53.000 One, that these things are actionable if they're right.

02:38:55.000 So first of all, Eric can be wrong, and I'm happy to be wrong if I'm wrong.

02:38:59.000 Or I can be right.

02:39:00.000 If I'm right, then it splits into a second level of the decision tree.

02:39:05.000 Maybe the new degrees of freedom are things we can play with at the engineering level, and maybe they're inaccessible just the way we can't play with up quarks and down quarks directly.

02:39:14.000 If we can play with it, then we've got so many new toys you have no idea.

02:39:19.000 New forces, new matter, new possibilities to flit in and out between dark and light matter.

02:39:25.000 But from an engineering perspective, how would you make any of this happen?

02:39:31.000 You would...

02:39:33.000 Build something based on new plans that did something that nothing else could do.

02:39:53.000 Take a tube that's perfectly insulated almost and run current through it and then pass an electron beam from like a cathode ray tube and reflect it off mirrors and see when it comes back and interferes with itself, how it interferes.

02:40:09.000 If it's perfectly insulated, it shouldn't be able to tell whether there's current running through the center of the solenoid, of that tube.

02:40:20.000 Turns out when you turn on the tube and you run current through it, the electron beam can detect whether there's current running through it through magic.

02:40:30.000 Technically, magic here means something called holonomy.

02:40:34.000 We didn't know that the electromagnetic fields are not where electromagnetism really happens.

02:40:41.000 It's something called the electromagnetic potential.

02:40:43.000 It's a precursor that actually determines the universe.

02:40:46.000 It determines the electromagnetic fields, but this weird thing where somehow the current inside a perfectly insulated tube is influencing the world outside of it was like, holy smokes.

02:40:58.000 We've been living with this stuff for how long?

02:41:00.000 We had no idea how it works.

02:41:02.000 The way you do this is we get together with a bunch of people and we'd say, if Eric is correct or somebody else is correct, and you started to play with this extended model of both general relativity and the standard model,

02:41:17.000 what are some experiments we could run That you think would have no actual content, just the way the Aronoff-Bohm experiment looks like it's not going to do anything.

02:41:27.000 Or the Casimir effect.

02:41:29.000 Or finding out that beta decay, radioactive decay, knows it's left from its right.

02:41:35.000 These are all hugely surprising discoveries.

02:41:39.000 I don't know how to do that.

02:41:41.000 And it's one of the reasons I keep talking to Brian Keating, who's an experimentalist, because what you see here in the studio is 100% theorists.

02:41:49.000 You only invite theorists from physics.

02:41:51.000 You don't invite experimentalists.

02:41:53.000 I don't know how to talk to the experimentalists, but that's why I go down to the University of California, San Diego, and play down there, because I want to talk to people who are like, how do we build this?

02:42:03.000 You're the engineers of physics.

02:42:05.000 Tell me what I'm saying In terms that we can build something and actually see if it has consequences.

02:42:11.000 And what could it be in terms of like building something?

02:42:15.000 Imagine for example that you look at the equivalence principle, right?

02:42:20.000 So the equivalence principle says that the inertial mass, how much mass something appears to have when it's moving, how resistant it is to force...

02:42:29.000 That's the same, according to Einstein, as the gravitational force, right?

02:42:33.000 The gravitational mass.

02:42:34.000 So gravitational mass equals inertial mass.

02:42:36.000 There are like a whole bunch of different flavors of mass that happen to all be equal according to different principles.

02:42:44.000 According to something called spontaneous symmetry breaking, Mass is generated by the interaction with the Higgs field in general.

02:42:54.000 It's not a number the way we thought it was coded into an equation.

02:42:58.000 It's something we would call a vacuum expectation value through a Yukawa coupling.

02:43:02.000 Never mind.

02:43:03.000 It's that thing about the molasses causes the mass to feel heavier even though the mass of the cup hasn't changed because it's requiring more and more force to push.

02:43:16.000 If what we have is a bunch of different kinds of mass, we might be able to break some of these things, like the equivalence principle.

02:43:22.000 We might be able to generate negative mass, which is not technically excluded, but is incredibly hard to think about.

02:43:31.000 We might be able to do things...

02:43:33.000 The only way we keep mass always positive is by putting in artificial conditions.

02:43:38.000 If you have a bigger theory, you start to realize how you would do these things naturally.

02:43:44.000 So, for example, we might be able to dial the mass of things differently by actually engineering the thing that we call the Higgs field.

02:43:53.000 The Higgs field is the only thing that doesn't spin that is fundamental when we spin spacetime.

02:44:00.000 And they've detected the Higgs boson on a large hadron collider, right?

02:44:05.000 100%.

02:44:06.000 2012, I think.

02:44:09.000 But this is an enormous collider, right?

02:44:12.000 I mean, to be able to generate the Higgs, it had to go through how many kilometers?

02:44:19.000 It's an enormous piece of equipment, right?

02:44:22.000 Right. 1.00

02:44:22.000 But that's in part because it's a stupid piece of equipment. 1.00

02:44:25.000 What we're really doing is banging rocks together, except the rocks are called protons. 0.95

02:44:30.000 So you're thinking there could be an engineering solution where you could generate something like that, but from a much smaller footprint?

02:44:39.000 100% that's a possibility, because right now what we're doing is we're using electromagnetism only.

02:44:44.000 The only force that we actually have engineering power over is electromagnetism.

02:44:50.000 Like when we do chemistry, so you fertilize your lawn, you're using electron orbitals based on electromagnetism between the proton and the electron in an atom or molecule.

02:45:01.000 We don't know how to interfere with the weak force or the gravitational force.

02:45:06.000 Both of those are so weak that they're impossible.

02:45:07.000 And the strong force is crazily nuclear and super short range.

02:45:11.000 So we've got control of one out of four forces.

02:45:15.000 I can tell you what I believe the additional forces are, but what I need is I need people who are closer to engineering, experiment, and standard theory.

02:45:24.000 I mean, I'm not even a physicist, Joe.

02:45:26.000 Right.

02:45:27.000 What I'm curious about is, like, what caused this shift in you to think about UFOs and UFO reports as being credible?

02:45:37.000 Because we're talking theoretically and you're talking about your understanding of dimensions.

02:45:41.000 Because I thought it was not...

02:45:42.000 I thought it was a smokescreen that we were using to do aerospace engineering projects.

02:45:48.000 I thought it was like Operation Fortitude or Operation Bodyguard.

02:45:52.000 And so it's like, okay, please don't bother me with your sci-fi stories.

02:45:56.000 It's space opera.

02:45:57.000 For the same reason that I don't go into a Scientology center and spend all my time thinking about Xenu, I'm not going to spend all my time worried about space opera.

02:46:05.000 And what changed?

02:46:07.000 I'm meeting an enormous number of very sober, very grown-up people who seem to be changed, alter, and believe that this is real.

02:46:17.000 I have met an enormous number of people now who had personal firsthand, like sober people who've had Crazy first-hand encounters.

02:46:28.000 I don't understand how they're doing this as actors.

02:46:31.000 Very often it's unwanted.

02:46:32.000 It ruins their lives.

02:46:34.000 It's sad.

02:46:35.000 You know, I ended up in San Marino at Lou Elizondo's invitation, and then Lou couldn't come, so I ended up speaking in Lou's place at a UFO meeting.

02:46:43.000 It was crazy.

02:46:44.000 But I met so many people who were just like, Eric, you know, let me explain my experience to you.

02:46:50.000 And I'm just not prepared for these highly detailed stories that have so much similarity one to the next.

02:46:57.000 You know, like the Skinwalker Ranch thing on the History Channel.

02:47:01.000 It looks incredibly junky put out by Prometheus Entertainment.

02:47:05.000 I know Brandon Fugle, the owner of the ranch.

02:47:08.000 And I know Eric Bard.

02:47:10.000 We keep talking via phone.

02:47:14.000 Eric Bard is like almost the only other person who has some idea of what differential forms are, tensor analysis.

02:47:20.000 He's a sober, normal human being sitting out there on a ranch trying to figure out what the hell he's looking at.

02:47:28.000 I don't think he's lying to me.

02:47:31.000 And I don't think Brandon is lying to me.

02:47:34.000 And then you hear their stories, like the Gary Nolan thing.

02:47:36.000 I was completely unprepared.

02:47:37.000 Have you dealt with Gary?

02:47:38.000 No.

02:47:39.000 I watched him on Lex, though.

02:47:41.000 I think Gary told me a story where he's, like, dealing with a subject.

02:47:44.000 He's a medical guy, and that's how he got involved with this.

02:47:47.000 And, you know, somehow the medical person that he is is talking to a subject who says, you know, I encountered a spinning disc in the sky or whatever, and a ball of light comes in.

02:47:57.000 You know, brother, another one of these stories.

02:47:59.000 Yeah.

02:47:59.000 He's like, you know, the ball of light entered my body and I was in pain, but it was okay and it exited and whatever.

02:48:05.000 And then Gary looks at the person and there's a path of necrosis exactly where the person describes this thing exiting.

02:48:12.000 Like, what?

02:48:16.000 Tell me what the level of conspiracy is here that would be necessary to get all of this indirect evidence.

02:48:23.000 And this is the basic puzzle of UFOs.

02:48:26.000 Zero responsible adult direct evidence in the public domain.

02:48:30.000 Zero, so far as I can tell.

02:48:33.000 More indirect evidence than you can possibly imagine, with sober normal people claiming things that I can't believe, first-hand stuff.

02:48:44.000 And then it gets weirder and worse from that.

02:48:47.000 I would love to keep this just at metallic flying objects.

02:48:52.000 But like, no, it's always going to be like, no, they go into the water and then, you know, the next level is like cattle mutilation.

02:49:00.000 It's like, oh, please don't bring in cattle mutilation.

02:49:02.000 Oh, yeah, the stapes, you know, the smallest bone in the body, the three bones that make mammals mammals, you know, one of them seems to be frequently missing.

02:49:11.000 And then, like, Paul Hellyer and Chaim Eshed and Ben Rich Then there's this, like, crazy level where the former Canadian defense minister believes that there's a galactic federation, the humans are in contact, and the head of the Israeli...

02:49:27.000 It's like, enough.

02:49:28.000 I can't handle it.

02:49:30.000 I don't know what we're looking at.

02:49:32.000 And I'd love to keep it at something sober.

02:49:35.000 And I see zero direct evidence.

02:49:37.000 And if we're going to go on the direct evidence, Elon is right. 1.00

02:49:39.000 It's bullshit. 0.99

02:49:41.000 Tough luck. 0.99

02:49:42.000 But I don't know how this amount of indirect evidence occurs because I don't think the government is capable of faking this.

02:49:49.000 On the other hand, If we go by the indirect evidence, how is it that none of us have, like even the center of mass coordinates of this Tic Tac?

02:49:58.000 You'll never hear me talking about the Tic Tac or the Zimbabwe kids or whatever.

02:50:02.000 Why?

02:50:03.000 Because since the mid-70s, we've been able to do CGI in Star Wars that looks much more realistic than any video I've ever seen.

02:50:11.000 So you can show me any video and I don't care.

02:50:14.000 It's just not interesting to me.

02:50:16.000 We don't have center of mass coordinates for this tic-tac that's claimed by the U.S. government over the Nimitz?

02:50:22.000 Please.

02:50:23.000 Oh, because it's sensitive.

02:50:24.000 We don't...

02:50:25.000 Stop it. 1.00

02:50:26.000 Shut up. 1.00

02:50:27.000 Hush. 1.00

02:50:27.000 So is it they don't have it? 1.00

02:50:29.000 They won't release it?

02:50:30.000 No, no, no.

02:50:30.000 They claim it's not released.

02:50:31.000 It can't be released to the public.

02:50:33.000 Right.

02:50:33.000 I'm like, so downsample it.

02:50:35.000 D-res. 0.97

02:50:36.000 It's not even our ship, people.

02:50:39.000 You're claiming it's something you can't understand and you have the 3D coordinates and I can't play with it in a model on like Google Earth or SketchUp or something?

02:50:49.000 Go F yourselves.

02:50:51.000 You're going to stovepipe this need to know.

02:50:53.000 I have a need to know.

02:50:55.000 I'm trying to do science.

02:50:57.000 Is that the most compelling one to you?

02:50:58.000 The Tic Tac?

02:51:00.000 Take your pick.

02:51:01.000 It has the most qualified people watching it.

02:51:06.000 Yeah.

02:51:07.000 But I don't want to get involved with GoFast or Gimbal or this or that or the Phoenix Lights or the Belgian. 0.98

02:51:14.000 It's like, stop teasing me.

02:51:19.000 This is the Meredith Baker problem.

02:51:21.000 When I was a 14-year-old guy, I thought Meredith Baker was the hottest thing in the world. 0.99

02:51:25.000 I wanted to go out with her.

02:51:26.000 What?

02:51:27.000 It's a girl you knew?

02:51:27.000 Yeah.

02:51:28.000 Okay.

02:51:28.000 Yeah.

02:51:30.000 And every time I asked her out, she's like, I really want to go out with you, but I really have to wash my hair or I really have to hang out with my family.

02:51:36.000 I was like, this is not going very well.

02:51:40.000 At some point, somebody pulls me aside and said, Eric, you're Jewish.

02:51:43.000 She's Mormon. 0.96

02:51:44.000 Get the hint.

02:51:45.000 She likes you.

02:51:47.000 But there was nothing going to happen.

02:51:49.000 Okay, I get it.

02:51:50.000 This is Meredith Baker.

02:51:52.000 You don't want, for some reason, to tell me what's actually going on.

02:51:55.000 Then don't waste my time.

02:51:56.000 Don't spend my credibility.

02:51:58.000 Do you think that they don't want to release the information because they're still trying to digest it themselves and they don't want it to get out publicly and get into the hands of China?

02:52:06.000 I'm not smart enough to figure this out.

02:52:08.000 I believe...

02:52:09.000 If there was something...

02:52:10.000 That was beyond our understanding.

02:52:13.000 You want that data to be released?

02:52:17.000 Can we have a glass of something so that I can hide behind the fact that I had a sip of alcohol?

02:52:22.000 I'm going to take a leak again and we'll come back with ice and alcohol for Eric.

02:52:26.000 Perfect.

02:52:26.000 Thank you.

02:52:28.000 Cheers, sir.

02:52:29.000 Cheers.

02:52:30.000 All right.

02:52:30.000 Now you got your excuse.

02:52:31.000 Okay. 0.96

02:52:34.000 Let's talk crazy.

02:52:35.000 All right. 0.79

02:52:36.000 That's good.

02:52:38.000 That's good.

02:52:39.000 Thank you.

02:52:44.000 Glenmorange.

02:52:45.000 Is that how you say it?

02:52:45.000 I don't know.

02:52:46.000 How's it spelled?

02:52:47.000 I thought it was Morange.

02:52:48.000 Yeah.

02:52:49.000 How do you say it?

02:52:51.000 Glenmororangie.

02:52:52.000 Glenmororangie?

02:52:53.000 I'd call it morangie, but I don't think that's right either.

02:52:55.000 I think it's morangie.

02:52:57.000 Glenmorangie?

02:52:58.000 I thought it was Glenmorange.

02:53:00.000 So, where were we?

02:53:02.000 You wanted to know what I think is really going on.

02:53:03.000 Yeah, what's really going on then?

02:53:05.000 Um, one possibility is we did a lot of bad stuff and we cannot get out of the fact that if we release what it is that we actually know and what has been going on, there's going to be a lot of consequence.

02:53:16.000 Bad stuff as in?

02:53:20.000 Maybe people got killed.

02:53:21.000 Maybe people were made crazy when they weren't crazy because they saw things.

02:53:26.000 So if you think about, um...

02:53:29.000 You know about de-confliction?

02:53:31.000 De-confliction?

02:53:32.000 Yeah.

02:53:32.000 No.

02:53:33.000 If you have a blue-on-blue situation, that means that two official representatives of the U.S. government are stumbling over each other.

02:53:42.000 You've got local law enforcement.

02:53:43.000 Like the first scene of The Matrix is... 0.96

02:53:47.000 It suddenly got really fucking intimidating, Joe. 0.93

02:53:50.000 Now I'm scared. 0.94

02:53:54.000 Oh, wow.

02:53:59.000 Nicely done.

02:54:00.000 U.S. alerted Russia to Biden's Ukraine visit for deconfliction purposes.

02:54:05.000 Wow.

02:54:05.000 So, hey, don't blow up this city because Biden's going to be there.

02:54:10.000 And there are three systems that stop the first scene in The Matrix where the agents show up and local law enforcement is like, I think we can handle one little girl.

02:54:20.000 No, Lieutenant, your men are already dead.

02:54:23.000 That's a deconfliction situation.

02:54:26.000 We have three things, I think, called Case Explorer, RIS is safe, and...

02:54:35.000 Oh, God.

02:54:37.000 Safety net.

02:54:38.000 We don't know about these things because this is only for grown-ups in the government.

02:54:43.000 So they have to, like, file what it is that they're doing and then, oh, we've got an undercover agent who's posing as a Colombian drug lord.

02:54:52.000 Don't bust him because we have got, like, 10 years invested in this thing.

02:54:56.000 So I tried to use this system.

02:54:58.000 I called up, I think, Case Explorer for South Florida and got into a half an hour.

02:55:04.000 Okay, Case Explorer.

02:55:05.000 I wonder how you found it.

02:55:09.000 Try RISSsafe.

02:55:12.000 I think that's the one...

02:55:13.000 I don't want to keep looking up all these websites.

02:55:15.000 Yeah, he's going to get in trouble.

02:55:16.000 I'm going to get flagged, but I'll do it.

02:55:17.000 I'll do it.

02:55:20.000 So this is how they de-conflict blue on blue.

02:55:23.000 But you see, you and I are also blue.

02:55:25.000 We're having a conversation and we may be stumbling on something the government doesn't want us to know, which is what happened when COVID maybe spilled out.

02:55:33.000 Yeah, you see?

02:55:34.000 Officer safety event, de-confliction system, safeguarding law enforcement through information sharing.

02:55:40.000 Right.

02:55:40.000 So this is how they play keep away from the rest of us, where they tell each other what they're doing and the rest of us can't know what's going on.

02:55:49.000 Now, when you say blue on blue, there's a situation that I want to give a name to because it doesn't have a name, which I'm going to call baby on cobalt and cobalt on baby.

02:55:59.000 Baby and cobalt are two forms of blue.

02:56:01.000 Cobalt is government and baby is like civilians, like you and me.

02:56:06.000 What happens when a civilian stumbles on one of these operations?

02:56:11.000 They're not allowed to use these systems.

02:56:14.000 I called up the South Florida, I think, Case Explorer, had a half an hour conversation.

02:56:19.000 They were telling me all sorts of stuff.

02:56:20.000 And I said, I'd like to hear about Jeffrey Epstein.

02:56:24.000 Who's calling?

02:56:25.000 I'm a private citizen.

02:56:27.000 This call will be terminated in five seconds.

02:56:29.000 And then they hung up on me.

02:56:31.000 So I realized, okay, ordinary human beings cannot use these systems.

02:56:36.000 I think a lot of what's going on is that we keep tripping over the Government operations in the cobalt sector, but we're baby blue.

02:56:46.000 And they don't have any system for figuring out how to get rid of a civilian who stumbles on a drug smuggling operation.

02:56:54.000 Like, okay, so Jeffrey Epstein traffics your daughter.

02:56:58.000 What do you do?

02:56:59.000 If he's an intelligence asset, you don't know.

02:57:02.000 You just want the creep away from your kid.

02:57:04.000 So you file a complaint or whatever.

02:57:06.000 Now you've got a situation where they don't know what to do because you've got a civilian and you've got some sort of super secret dark thing that isn't supposed to exist.

02:57:14.000 My claim is that conspiracy theorist is basically cobalt on baby.

02:57:21.000 In other words, the government warning a private citizen, get away from that thing.

02:57:26.000 We will start to destroy your reputation if you do not cease and desist.

02:57:30.000 But there's no plan.

02:57:31.000 So if you were the guy who figured out D-Day, you'd say, well, there's a huge increase in the inflatable balloons.

02:57:37.000 I think that they might be tanks.

02:57:38.000 There's no troops under that army designation.

02:57:42.000 You'd be a threat to this incredible operation because you have free speech and nobody knows how to shut you up. 0.98

02:57:48.000 So consider that none of us know the answer to what does the government do When private citizens start to figure out statecraft narratives are bullshit. 0.75

02:57:58.000 So, for example, Jeff Sachs was called in to supervise the investigation into the origin of COVID at The Lancet.

02:58:07.000 And he puts in place all of the people who were involved with this through Peter Daszak.

02:58:13.000 He later figures out, oh my god, I just put the foxes in charge of the hen house.

02:58:18.000 And he blows the whistle.

02:58:19.000 So what if we have like a, since the 1970s, a 45-year-old workaround of the Biological Weapons Convention In Wuhan, we've created this thing called One Health and the EcoHealth Alliance we took over as a hippie charity.

02:58:34.000 And if you ever take a look at the board of advisors of EcoHealth Alliance, it's wildly overpowered, including my old mentor, who's the head of the Sloan Foundation and the ex-head of the National Science Foundation.

02:58:44.000 None of you guys look at the board of directors? 0.87

02:58:46.000 Crazy.

02:58:48.000 We keep tripping on these official statecraft narratives.

02:58:52.000 That's why they won't let us question the Zelensky stuff.

02:58:54.000 They won't let us question the origin of COVID. They won't let us question the vaccines.

02:58:58.000 They won't let us question whether there are therapeutics.

02:59:01.000 These are all cobalt on baby things.

02:59:04.000 It's horse dewormer.

02:59:05.000 What's wrong with you people? 1.00

02:59:06.000 You're all lunatics. 1.00

02:59:07.000 You're pathological losers. 1.00

02:59:09.000 Okay, I get it. 0.99

02:59:10.000 You're just destroying my Wikipedia entry because I keep asking questions because actually you need To have a timeout.

02:59:18.000 You're out of control.

02:59:19.000 I'm fine.

02:59:20.000 But you're going to turn this into pathologizing.

02:59:22.000 When you pathologize people who've seen the truth, now you've got a real problem.

02:59:27.000 You gaslit American citizens because you couldn't do your effing job?

02:59:30.000 Really?

02:59:31.000 That's interesting.

02:59:32.000 Did you kill anyone?

02:59:33.000 Did you do wet work?

02:59:34.000 Did you do digital wet work?

02:59:36.000 What did we just find out from the Twitter files, right?

02:59:39.000 How many times did I say, I'm being throttled, I'm being manipulated?

02:59:44.000 The government doesn't want to take responsibility.

02:59:47.000 We have this – what is it?

02:59:48.000 GEC that's from the State Department.

02:59:50.000 We have CISA inside of the Department of Homeland Security.

02:59:53.000 These people are creating fake conversations on Twitter.

02:59:56.000 They're creating fake reports about the Hunter Biden laptop to influence the election.

03:00:00.000 We didn't have a free and fair election.

03:00:01.000 It had nothing to do with ballot stuffing or miscounting.

03:00:05.000 So I believe that partially why we're not talking is that we've done so many bad things around UFOs that we don't want to come clean.

03:00:13.000 Wow, that's interesting.

03:00:14.000 Okay?

03:00:15.000 So that's one thing.

03:00:17.000 Two, imagine that there's one enormous update coming.

03:00:23.000 Like, your life is partially a lie.

03:00:27.000 I think many of us have figured out that we originally believed that it was Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone, and now we're not quite so sure.

03:00:33.000 Right?

03:00:34.000 I don't know.

03:00:35.000 Do you know that it was Lee Harvey Oswald?

03:00:38.000 Certainly the Warren report doesn't hold a lot of water with me anymore.

03:00:42.000 A lot of us are going to have to deal with the fact that a lot of what we've been taught is crazy, is not crazy.

03:00:48.000 Like the fact that this virus seems to have come out of a lab where we were trying to figure out how to put a furin cleavage site into a humanized coronavirus. 0.51

03:00:58.000 And we're leaving in place the exact architecture that got us into this meth.

03:01:02.000 Without hearings?

03:01:03.000 Without hearings?

03:01:04.000 There's no way we would do this without hearings.

03:01:07.000 So what we're seeing is we're seeing an explosion, a collision between social media-empowered humans who are smart, trying to figure out the story, and the government's stonewalling us so that we can't figure out our own lives. 1.00

03:01:19.000 Like, did my children get injected or infected with something that came out of your stupidity because Ralph Baric and Peter Daszak can't do their goddamn jobs? 1.00

03:01:28.000 Maybe. 1.00

03:01:30.000 Are we going to have a tribunal about the fact that you infected planet Earth and you decreased human life expectancy by causing us to fight a different COVID infection every year? 0.60

03:01:38.000 Maybe.

03:01:39.000 These are hugely consequential issues.

03:01:42.000 And I believe that UFOs are in part hugely consequential issues for reasons that may have to do with the fact that this is...

03:01:48.000 Of the fake version?

03:01:50.000 It's not overlord, it's bodyguard or fortitude-like?

03:01:53.000 I don't know.

03:01:54.000 But we've certainly gaslit people.

03:01:56.000 And I think we're not prepared to take responsibility for ruining the lives of ordinary Americans who were smart and honest because we couldn't do our jobs in the intelligence and defense communities.

03:02:06.000 What do you think is responsible for the shift in communication about this stuff now?

03:02:11.000 Because in the past, no one would acknowledge it.

03:02:15.000 No one would talk about it.

03:02:16.000 Now they're talking about it fairly openly.

03:02:18.000 And they're discussing it. 0.98

03:02:20.000 When I think about things like that, I go, well, there's a cynic in me that says, oh, if they're saying this, then it's probably horseshit. 0.90

03:02:26.000 They're probably covering up for some drones they've created. 0.86

03:02:28.000 They are.

03:02:30.000 Well, yes.

03:02:31.000 In other words, the UFO phenomenon is multiple things.

03:02:34.000 We know that it's a cover story for things like the stealth bomber.

03:02:38.000 We also know that it's a cover story for our inability to take action against surveillance over flights of dirigibles and balloons.

03:02:47.000 We also know that it's people misseeing things.

03:02:50.000 Like, I've seen two UFOs recently that fooled other people.

03:02:57.000 But I was able to figure out partially one with the help of Mick West, who is my antagonist, but also we're sort of, we're frenemies, kind of.

03:03:04.000 And the other one was like a Mylar balloon that looked like a spherical fireworks display off the coast between Malibu and Catalina.

03:03:12.000 The way it was being reflected by the sunlight?

03:03:14.000 You know, the thing people don't understand about mylar balloons is that at night, a mylar balloon is a very confusing object to encounter because all you're seeing is like randomly scattered light.

03:03:22.000 And it's like, oh my god, you know, this is like the Phoenix Lights.

03:03:25.000 And I have like video of people in line at a Thai restaurant saying, oh my god, I've never seen anything like this.

03:03:32.000 Of course, I go across the street to investigate and it says happy birthday.

03:03:36.000 So there's no question that it's a certain amount of people wanting to see things that aren't there.

03:03:42.000 Yes.

03:03:42.000 That's a big attraction.

03:03:43.000 Yep.

03:03:44.000 So this desire thing, you have to moderate your desire.

03:03:47.000 Yes.

03:03:48.000 It's certainly a cover story.

03:03:51.000 It's certainly stuff we can't explain.

03:03:57.000 But the claim really coming from inside the beast is we've seen stuff that is so clear that we know that there's something there.

03:04:05.000 And Eric, we just can't show it to you.

03:04:07.000 And by the way, the reason that it seems to be government-restricted...

03:04:12.000 First of all, it's very hard to take good video with a phone.

03:04:14.000 I don't know if you've noticed this.

03:04:16.000 They're getting better at it.

03:04:18.000 I now spend my flights, I take the window seat, and I sit there with my camera glued to the window under...

03:04:28.000 Stop action.

03:04:29.000 What is it called?

03:04:30.000 Slow-mo.

03:04:31.000 Or not slow-mo.

03:04:32.000 The time-lapse.

03:04:35.000 I'm up in the sky for a long time.

03:04:37.000 There's basically nothing up there.

03:04:39.000 So you're trying to find things on your phone?

03:04:41.000 But in part, it's like I do this thing where I take license plates and every time I see a license plate with three letters, like NSA or MIT, I take a picture of it.

03:04:51.000 So I have a huge number of these things because I'm trying to train my brain.

03:04:54.000 Here is what random noise looks like.

03:04:57.000 Like in other words, it's not telling you to do something.

03:05:00.000 If it says BTC, I shouldn't go out and buy a bunch of Bitcoin.

03:05:04.000 People don't realize that you have to train yourself because you're going to see lots of patterns once you start looking for them.

03:05:10.000 In finance, I used to build random number generators that had the correlation of the markets and I would generate pictures and the financial professionals would say, oh, we've got to buy.

03:05:19.000 This is a classic head and shoulders pattern and there's going to break out.

03:05:22.000 It's like I generated this out of a simulator written in Python.

03:05:26.000 So people are just...

03:05:28.000 They want to believe so much that they're going to lie.

03:05:31.000 It's an issue.

03:05:31.000 Yeah.

03:05:32.000 It's an issue with Bigfoot.

03:05:33.000 It's an issue with everything.

03:05:34.000 It's an issue with all of us.

03:05:35.000 It's an issue with me too.

03:05:37.000 I have desires and I have to keep my desires in check.

03:05:39.000 Yeah, everyone.

03:05:40.000 I am horrible.

03:05:41.000 Horrible with the unknown.

03:05:42.000 Horrible with UFOs.

03:05:44.000 Horrible with...

03:05:44.000 We have to camp and decamp.

03:05:45.000 And that's what...

03:05:46.000 I think what you do is great, which is you sort of believe and then you say...

03:05:50.000 I give up.

03:05:51.000 I change.

03:05:51.000 Right.

03:05:52.000 I go back and forth.

03:05:53.000 Well, that's what I do.

03:05:54.000 Now...

03:05:55.000 At the end of the day, once you've pulled out all the mundane things, the question is, is there a residue left of things that actually are mind-blowing?

03:06:05.000 I can't tell you until I actually see stuff that somebody's willing to say, we captured this, it looks like this, but I can tell you that I am assured repeatedly by people who seem incredibly sober, who do not seem to be great actors, That they have seen amazing things.

03:06:22.000 We have data that is as clear as you can imagine.

03:06:25.000 And we can't release it.

03:06:27.000 And then you have this question of, is there anyone smart who's trained in this very small number of areas who's looked at this?

03:06:35.000 Or are you just going to eyeball it and pretend that it violates physical law when you don't even know physical?

03:06:40.000 You don't know physical law!

03:06:42.000 So far as I know, Eric W. Davis is the top person who knows what a tensor is on this project.

03:06:49.000 Are you kidding me?

03:06:51.000 Try to imagine that you're trying to do the Manhattan Project with the K-pop groups. 0.98

03:06:57.000 It's that big of a difference.

03:07:00.000 People will say, well, we have electrical engineers.

03:07:02.000 Like, I don't care.

03:07:03.000 I'm talking quantum field theorists.

03:07:05.000 I'm talking differential geometry, general relativity.

03:07:07.000 And people are tired of you.

03:07:09.000 Like, you're an elitist. 0.80

03:07:10.000 You're a snob. 1.00

03:07:10.000 Oh, go fuck. 1.00

03:07:13.000 I shouldn't have said that. 1.00

03:07:14.000 What?

03:07:15.000 You said it really soft.

03:07:16.000 I know, I know.

03:07:17.000 It was very soft. 1.00

03:07:17.000 Go fuck yourself. 1.00

03:07:18.000 But it's just like... 1.00

03:07:19.000 One of the kindest ever.

03:07:22.000 There was no anger in your voice.

03:07:23.000 I'm trying to be an adult, but it's been three years.

03:07:25.000 You've been wasting my time.

03:07:27.000 Yeah.

03:07:27.000 You say the word stovepipe as if it means something.

03:07:30.000 Shut up and show us what you've got. 0.98

03:07:32.000 We're your team. 0.99

03:07:33.000 So, I like your theory that they're covering up for some stuff that is...

03:07:41.000 I mean, if really people have been harmed and...

03:07:45.000 I mean, one of the claims of back-engineering these things, it's always fascinated me, is that there was...

03:07:52.000 Bob Lazar said this previous person who was working on the job, they died.

03:07:57.000 They tried to do something and there was some sort of an explosion.

03:08:00.000 And it was limited into what...

03:08:02.000 I think you and him together would be the greatest podcast of all time.

03:08:07.000 Would you be interested in doing that?

03:08:09.000 Because you'd be able to tell.

03:08:10.000 Oh yeah, we'll dose you up.

03:08:11.000 Yeah, but let me just say something.

03:08:12.000 What do you want?

03:08:13.000 Adderall?

03:08:13.000 Mushrooms?

03:08:15.000 I want a line of Sonoran desert toads that every time you answer a question wrong, you've got to lick the toad. 0.98

03:08:22.000 But you would be able to tell whether or not it's nonsense. 0.98

03:08:25.000 Yes and no.

03:08:26.000 I'm not the best person.

03:08:27.000 You'd be better at it than me.

03:08:28.000 I'd be better than you.

03:08:29.000 For sure.

03:08:30.000 But you want to know?

03:08:31.000 Look, Sean Carroll and I don't get along.

03:08:34.000 You need to be here for this.

03:08:35.000 All right.

03:08:36.000 You.

03:08:36.000 I'll show up.

03:08:37.000 Specifically.

03:08:38.000 Show up?

03:08:39.000 You've got to be ready, man.

03:08:41.000 You and him together would be so fascinating. 0.97

03:08:46.000 His story hasn't fucking changed since 1989, man. 0.90

03:08:50.000 If he's telling the truth, if he really was this propulsions expert from Los Alamos labs who they brought in because they were kind of trying to figure out what the fuck is going on, and everything's compartmentalized so no one can talk to anyone, so no real science can be done. 0.97

03:09:03.000 And they're saying, tell me what you know.

03:09:05.000 Let's figure this out.

03:09:07.000 And he gets to it, and almost immediately he's like, this is nothing that we know how to do.

03:09:12.000 This is nothing that we're making.

03:09:15.000 This is something that's not even designed for a human form.

03:09:19.000 If it's a physical vehicle, it's designed for something much smaller than humans.

03:09:24.000 I know nothing about Bob Lazar.

03:09:26.000 I've seen something about element 115, which I don't understand.

03:09:30.000 He predicted, yes, they're indexed by a number of protons.

03:09:35.000 So I can predict that the elements we have yet to discover are going to be in the same numerical.

03:09:42.000 I don't get this.

03:09:43.000 That's interesting.

03:09:44.000 Yeah, but I think the claim is different.

03:09:46.000 The claim is that this element must have some property or that...

03:09:49.000 He said it's a stable version of this element and that in wherever these beings are from, they have access to a stable version of this element that we don't have access to here.

03:10:02.000 So let me make an analogy.

03:10:03.000 Gold...

03:10:04.000 I don't know if you know this about gold.

03:10:06.000 What we call gold is the single stable version of gold.

03:10:12.000 There are a bunch of isotopes that are all radioactive that turn into other stuff.

03:10:17.000 So if I have to pay you in gold, if I choose a gold that isn't the one that works, it's completely unstable.

03:10:25.000 You gave me unstable gold.

03:10:26.000 I know.

03:10:27.000 What happened?

03:10:28.000 Do you die if you touch it?

03:10:29.000 Well, you'll certainly get some radiation, but you'll also find that there's much less gold every time you check on your amount.

03:10:37.000 Oh, wow.

03:10:38.000 Whoa.

03:10:39.000 But what I'm trying to get at is that it may be a claim that there's an island of stability.

03:10:44.000 Like with gold, there's one isotope that's stable.

03:10:47.000 Right.

03:10:48.000 I don't know anything about that.

03:10:50.000 I'm not the guy for that, but I can...

03:10:52.000 Here's the thing, Joe.

03:10:53.000 I can tell you what I know and what I don't know.

03:10:56.000 And I could certainly probe him.

03:10:58.000 The thing that I'm uncomfortable about...

03:11:00.000 I don't know if you saw my interaction with Hal Puthoff.

03:11:02.000 No, I did not.

03:11:04.000 So I interview Hal Puthoff, and we're talking about this stuff, and it goes to remote viewing.

03:11:09.000 I'm like, oh, brother, I have to do remote viewing.

03:11:12.000 Now, but if you think about it, When you get a FaceTime call from your wife who's traveling on business or something, or you're traveling on business, it doesn't matter, that's remote viewing.

03:11:24.000 So you don't realize it, but something completely mundane to you, like a video call, It is a version of this insane sounding thing.

03:11:34.000 It's just done through a device, much like a camera lens sees things, much like your eyes see things.

03:11:41.000 You're just doing it physically.

03:11:43.000 It's doing it through a device.

03:11:44.000 You're doing it biological.

03:11:45.000 Yeah.

03:11:46.000 So when you hear Hal Puthoff say that he made money in the market, that he needed to raise money for his school.

03:11:53.000 So instead of doing a bake sale, he did remote viewing in the market.

03:11:57.000 I noticed one eyebrow just went up.

03:11:59.000 Sean Connery style.

03:12:00.000 What do you think about that?

03:12:01.000 We did not have a comfortable interaction.

03:12:03.000 I was respectful, but I certainly communicated that for a guy who's trying to prove that this stuff is real, wouldn't you like to invite me to your private island if this stuff works rather than making exactly $26,000 or whatever the target amount was?

03:12:20.000 Right.

03:12:21.000 Why wouldn't you keep going with that?

03:12:22.000 Right.

03:12:23.000 It's like, well, I'm too busy.

03:12:24.000 It's like, well, I understand being too busy to make money because I've certainly exhibited that behavior.

03:12:30.000 But if making money is the best way of advertising that this stuff is real, why wouldn't you actually do it?

03:12:39.000 So that was a very uncomfortable interaction that I had with Hal.

03:12:43.000 That doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't do it.

03:12:46.000 You know, there could be this thought that...

03:12:48.000 And this is, you know, what people would say about psychic ability as well.

03:12:52.000 There could be that thought that some people feel that abusing that power or using the power for personal gain would somehow or another diminish its effectiveness.

03:13:03.000 I so much want to make money from geometric unity.

03:13:06.000 But it's not magic.

03:13:08.000 But there's something about...

03:13:11.000 Not in my father's house.

03:13:12.000 You don't want to be the money changer in the temple.

03:13:16.000 I'm happy to make money hand over fist.

03:13:18.000 I'm pro-capitalism.

03:13:20.000 But, like, selling geometric unity makes me feel sort of sick to my stomach.

03:13:25.000 And I think about it.

03:13:25.000 I mean, I'm not so pure that I don't.

03:13:27.000 I see what you're saying.

03:13:28.000 But what I'm trying to say is you're trying to do something that's supposed to bring people together.

03:13:31.000 And you have a world in which we're losing all support for blue sky stuff.

03:13:37.000 So I think in Hal's case...

03:13:42.000 I just felt sad that I threw a bunch of proto-shade that people assembled into doubting.

03:13:51.000 I think Hal was sincere.

03:13:53.000 But I think what he was saying didn't make sense.

03:13:56.000 The remote viewing part of it.

03:13:57.000 Yes.

03:13:58.000 And so I felt bad about, like...

03:14:00.000 What if it's possible?

03:14:02.000 What if it's just not possible most of the time?

03:14:05.000 Well, for example, let's imagine you...

03:14:07.000 He claims that they sent people to the bottom of the sea in submarines who were able to remote view.

03:14:13.000 And so the water is acting as a screen where light can't get to the bottom of the Marianas Trench, for example.

03:14:21.000 But neutrinos can.

03:14:23.000 So if you imagine that there was some particle that could penetrate and be received, we have...

03:14:31.000 We're good to go.

03:14:34.000 We're good to go.

03:14:45.000 We're good to go. 1.00

03:14:57.000 A gun is to your head. 0.98

03:14:58.000 We believe in remote viewing.

03:15:00.000 Tell me a fairy tale.

03:15:02.000 I could come up with fairy tales.

03:15:03.000 And that could be one of them.

03:15:06.000 Do you think that it's possible that there are states of consciousness that can be achieved through Some form of meditation or some form of training the mind to get into a very specific focus that would allow you to access information that is otherwise unavailable.

03:15:31.000 I don't have any experience that.

03:15:33.000 I haven't done it.

03:15:35.000 Right?

03:15:36.000 So I would imagine it can't be done because I can't do it or haven't done it.

03:15:41.000 But isn't it possible that there are states of mind that can be achieved through whether it's holotropic breathing or whether it's meditation, there's states of mind that are measurably achievable.

03:15:55.000 That are very different from the current consciousness where two people are just talking.

03:15:59.000 Is it possible that there's a way that some people have of occasionally tapping in to information that's unavailable to you or are right now?

03:16:08.000 So let's do a junior version and then get to your question.

03:16:11.000 The junior version is, is there a way that we can look inside your body without opening your body up to figure out whether you have pancreatic cancer?

03:16:20.000 MRIs.

03:16:21.000 Ah.

03:16:22.000 So tomography and the radon transform.

03:16:24.000 The point is, any sufficiently advanced mathematics or physics seems like deep black magic.

03:16:33.000 Yeah, indistinguishable from magic.

03:16:34.000 Exactly.

03:16:35.000 So it's an Arthur C. Clarke problem.

03:16:37.000 Yeah.

03:16:38.000 If you ask me, I'm very freaked out about this cattle mutilation because people I know swear by it.

03:16:44.000 They say, come see the autopsies.

03:16:47.000 There's been some weird ones, for sure.

03:16:49.000 They're fascinating. 1.00

03:16:51.000 But, I mean, if you're going to come all the way here to fuck with our cows... 1.00

03:16:54.000 Well, no, no. 1.00

03:16:55.000 The issue is...

03:16:59.000 They don't do it to people, is my point.

03:17:00.000 The stapes...

03:17:01.000 Isn't that weird?

03:17:03.000 Yeah, but the stapes...

03:17:05.000 Again, people think mammals are defined by live birth and breasts and...

03:17:11.000 No.

03:17:12.000 It's three bones in the ear, if I'm not mistaken.

03:17:15.000 And those three bones have to do with insectivore ancestors who probably needed their ears detached from their jaws so they could hear high-pitched whining.

03:17:25.000 That's a theory.

03:17:26.000 We don't know if it's true.

03:17:27.000 Whoa.

03:17:28.000 Okay?

03:17:29.000 Now, those three little bones that mean so much, what they do is they transmit sound through the tympanic membrane to the organ of Cordy so that the cilia in this rolled up seashell in your ear vibrate at particular frequencies.

03:17:45.000 So when I'm talking to you and I say... 0.96

03:17:47.000 Joe, that's absolutely ridiculous. 0.59

03:17:50.000 What I'm doing is I'm stimulating different hair follicles in your organ of Cordy to vibrate at different times. 0.91

03:17:57.000 Or if I go, wise men say, that's tone three halves frequencies above, back to same tone.

03:18:05.000 Those things are perceived as pitch.

03:18:10.000 I could imagine something caring about the idea of how do I communicate thoughts through the tympanic membrane using the stapes.

03:18:19.000 Does it sound exotic?

03:18:20.000 Yes. 1.00

03:18:21.000 Does it sound like bullshit? 1.00

03:18:22.000 Absolutely. 0.99

03:18:24.000 However, it's not outside of the realm using the doubly scientific method which is You imagine that there's intelligence on the other end of this thing, and it's going to use every trick in the book because it's smarter than we are to figure out how to communicate with us.

03:18:39.000 Now, have I gone out into the desert?

03:18:41.000 Have I prayed?

03:18:42.000 Have I tried to get these things to talk to me?

03:18:45.000 I have.

03:18:47.000 Right?

03:18:48.000 I'm an atheist.

03:18:50.000 But these things have a religious effect on people.

03:18:54.000 They view them as angels.

03:18:55.000 They view them as transcendent beings.

03:18:58.000 They think that Ezekiel, the book of Ezekiel is about this stuff.

03:19:02.000 It's like, okay, it's only my self-respect.

03:19:06.000 I'm going to run an experiment because it's cheap.

03:19:09.000 Why wouldn't I do that?

03:19:10.000 Why wouldn't I do that heartfelt?

03:19:12.000 Every Friday, Joe, you should come to our family for Shabbat dinner.

03:19:15.000 We pray.

03:19:16.000 We may be atheists, but not on Friday night.

03:19:18.000 Friday night, we believe, right?

03:19:22.000 And my claim is that there are plenty of opportunities using the doubly scientific method.

03:19:29.000 If something is much smarter than us and is able to communicate these things, Maybe it said to Hal, look, we can't interfere with you because we have a prime directive, but we can give you indirect hints.

03:19:39.000 You know, what do I know?

03:19:41.000 I don't know anything.

03:19:42.000 Do I think it's likely?

03:19:43.000 No.

03:19:43.000 I think Hal is probably not correct.

03:19:47.000 Right?

03:19:48.000 But is it impossible to communicate with somebody below the bottom of the sea?

03:19:51.000 No, it's not impossible.

03:19:52.000 Even using neutrinos, it's not impossible.

03:19:55.000 Is there any mechanism that implements it?

03:19:57.000 None that I'm aware of.

03:19:59.000 Do we listen for neutrino events?

03:20:01.000 100%.

03:20:01.000 1987A, the supernova, I believe that the photons and the neutrinos were screaming at us and have arrived almost at the same time because the neutrinos we now know have a tiny mass, so they wouldn't be traveling at quite the speed of light.

03:20:16.000 Now, the point is, let's imagine that we had Neil deGrasse Tyson on. 0.99

03:20:20.000 He's not having any of this shit. 0.98

03:20:23.000 He's locked in to, because he's not really a physicist at a practicing level, he has to worry about his respectability. 0.99

03:20:32.000 He is 100% one of the most brilliant people at scientific exposition I've ever seen in my life.

03:20:39.000 But he can't think.

03:20:41.000 He's not ready to do great science because great science has an element of irresponsibility to it.

03:20:49.000 And what we don't understand, I think, about it is that when we decide that everybody has to do good science, it's like you doom yourself.

03:20:56.000 Many of the greatest scientists of all time were borderline quacks The belief, for example, that Watson and Crick had that DNA had to be a helix.

03:21:07.000 I mean, Jim Watson, somebody I know, and I dealt with four days straight.

03:21:12.000 The reason he beat Rosalind Franklin is that she couldn't spend one day not being a good scientist.

03:21:18.000 She was a good scientist, and he admitted he was not.

03:21:22.000 Okay?

03:21:23.000 But he was convinced it had to be a helix.

03:21:25.000 And from her perspective, it's like, oh, you want to be Linus Pauling who figured out the alpha helix in protein.

03:21:30.000 So you're going to take Linus's work and you're going to superimpose it on DNA and explain my Maltese cross.

03:21:36.000 And it's not about male versus female.

03:21:39.000 Absolutely, Jim Watson claims that if Rosalind Franklin had spent one afternoon thinking it was a helix, she would have gotten it before he did.

03:21:47.000 That's an extremely generous, kind, feministic belief. 1.00

03:21:55.000 She was a good scientist.

03:21:57.000 He admits he was not a good scientist, but he was a great scientist.

03:22:01.000 And that's the big difference.

03:22:03.000 Great scientists engage in quackery.

03:22:06.000 Carey Mullis taking LSD or getting stoned out of his mind, coming up with the preliminary chain reaction, is an example of great science.

03:22:15.000 Right?

03:22:15.000 Richard Feynman claiming that a particle takes every possible path it can simultaneously does not make sense.

03:22:22.000 But it's great science.

03:22:24.000 It's not good science.

03:22:25.000 So it's almost like guitar playing.

03:22:28.000 Say more.

03:22:30.000 You can be very technically proficient.

03:22:35.000 Or you can figure out a way to do something someone hasn't done before and do it in a way where you're using creativity and science together.

03:22:52.000 Okay.

03:22:53.000 Does this make sense?

03:22:54.000 If you look at, for example, Jeff Beck's version of Drown in My Own Tears with Jules Holland, that is one of the greatest vocal performances I've ever heard.

03:23:06.000 I cried.

03:23:07.000 I pulled over to the side of the road and wept when I heard that thing.

03:23:11.000 Because he died, and I was just like, yeah, whatever.

03:23:13.000 Jeff Beck died.

03:23:14.000 I know he's supposed to be the greatest.

03:23:16.000 I have no time for Jeff Beck.

03:23:18.000 I got to drive him once.

03:23:19.000 What?

03:23:20.000 What?

03:23:20.000 When I was a limo driver.

03:23:21.000 Hold up.

03:23:23.000 Yeah.

03:23:23.000 Wait.

03:23:24.000 Break from UFOs, Joe.

03:23:25.000 Yeah.

03:23:25.000 You have to tell me you're Jeff Bexton.

03:23:27.000 I was supposed to drive Steve Ray Vaughn, but Steve Ray Vaughn refused to take a limo.

03:23:32.000 Steve Ray Vaughn would always take cabs.

03:23:34.000 Isn't that wild?

03:23:35.000 And I was a giant Steve Ray Vaughn fan, because my boxing coach was a huge fan, and he would always play that song.

03:23:42.000 Oh, God, there's a bunch of them.

03:23:44.000 But is it Ireland?

03:23:45.000 Is that...

03:23:47.000 He has this one song.

03:23:48.000 I've never heard of this.

03:23:49.000 Oh my god. 0.99

03:23:51.000 This guy used to hit the bag and play this one song by Stevie Ray Vaughan, and I can't remember what fucking song it was. 0.98

03:23:58.000 But I became fascinated with Stevie Ray Vaughan because of my friend. 0.96

03:24:01.000 And as I was driving limos, I had an opportunity.

03:24:04.000 I was like, oh my god, I'm going to pick up Stevie Ray Vaughan.

03:24:06.000 This is insane.

03:24:07.000 But he was with Jeff Beck.

03:24:08.000 I'm like, yeah, that's pretty cool.

03:24:10.000 So I drove Jeff Beck.

03:24:11.000 But it was to me...

03:24:13.000 Wait, wait, wait. 1.00

03:24:13.000 I was an idiot. 1.00

03:24:14.000 You can't lead over that. 1.00

03:24:15.000 I didn't know.

03:24:16.000 Yeah, I also got a chance to pick up Annie Lennox, security guy.

03:24:22.000 He was this fascinating dude.

03:24:23.000 I really loved talking to him.

03:24:24.000 He was a lot of fun.

03:24:25.000 And so I got to see...

03:24:26.000 I was like, as close to you are as to Annie Lennox.

03:24:29.000 And this was when the Eurythmics were huge. 0.88

03:24:31.000 And she was in this restaurant.

03:24:33.000 And I swear to God, dude, her voice was like...

03:24:38.000 Like a cable wire.

03:24:40.000 When she would talk, it would almost like she had a nuclear voice.

03:24:45.000 Even just her talking, knowing how beautiful her voice was when she sang, you were like, oh my god, she's like an athlete.

03:24:53.000 She's like an athlete talking.

03:24:56.000 Just the way her voice was carrying in this conversation.

03:24:59.000 I was like, this is amazing.

03:25:00.000 Her voice is incredible.

03:25:01.000 And I was realizing, oh, wow, that's like a trained skill, like a ballerina with their vocal cords. 0.60

03:25:07.000 I believe before it was trained, it was just...

03:25:09.000 I have the same feeling about Eva Cassidy and Annie Lennox.

03:25:12.000 It's just that these people are not part of reality.

03:25:16.000 Well, is a gymnast a part of reality?

03:25:18.000 I mean, they developed that ability.

03:25:21.000 I mean, I think that's what it is.

03:25:22.000 I think we're seeing the final product.

03:25:23.000 We're not understanding that there's this long journey.

03:25:26.000 And some people have more physical gifts than others do.

03:25:30.000 But that's with gymnasts as well. 0.80

03:25:32.000 Okay.

03:25:33.000 You ever heard Eva Cassidy get sick and sing Stormy Monday and something about the sickness causes her voice to do something that no voice has ever done?

03:25:41.000 Oh, no.

03:25:42.000 Oh, dude.

03:25:42.000 This is like heroin.

03:25:44.000 Wow.

03:25:45.000 Jeff Beck is more vocal than these people.

03:25:48.000 This version of Drown In My Own Tears, which is a cover...

03:25:51.000 Ray Charles did a cover version of it, and he figured out what the song was supposed to be.

03:25:55.000 Okay.

03:25:57.000 Yeah, hit me with it.

03:26:46.000 Ugh. 1.00

03:26:47.000 What a bad motherfucker. 1.00

03:26:49.000 What a bad motherfucker. 1.00

03:26:51.000 By the way, I just want to say something that you're not going to want me to say, but fuck you. 1.00

03:26:58.000 I was hanging out with his bass player Tal Wilkenfeld, and she got COVID. And I heard that you sent a nurse with an IV with all of this sort of stuff to get Tal Wilkenfeld, this unbelievable bass player that just... 0.99

03:27:13.000 She's my friend!

03:27:15.000 Yeah, but she's like a next-level human being. 1.00

03:27:19.000 She is.

03:27:19.000 I love her.

03:27:20.000 She's great.

03:27:20.000 I know.

03:27:21.000 But, like, you know, you take a lot of shit from stupid shit that you do... 1.00

03:27:27.000 What a big heart you have, and nobody even knows what you do for people around you. 1.00

03:27:32.000 And I just want to say thank you.

03:27:34.000 Okay, that was an unauthorized thing.

03:27:36.000 That's very nice of you.

03:27:36.000 I want to get back to you.

03:27:37.000 Thank you.

03:27:37.000 Okay, the Jeff Beck thing.

03:27:39.000 There she is.

03:27:39.000 Oh, my God.

03:27:40.000 Right?

03:27:40.000 Like, she's 12 years old, and she's...

03:27:42.000 Let me hear some of this.

03:27:51.000 This is Costa Rica.

03:27:55.000 Wow.

03:27:56.000 I like how they have the little Indian rugs on stage.

03:27:59.000 That's pretty dope.

03:28:09.000 So it's Incubus with Mike Einziger and Brandon Boyd.

03:28:13.000 And that was Costa Rica where they were getting blown away and that she couldn't even see properly because her hair was getting blown into her eyes.

03:28:20.000 I met her at the store.

03:28:21.000 She's friends with Tony Hinchcliffe.

03:28:23.000 That's how I became friends with her.

03:28:24.000 Yeah, she doesn't want to hang out with music people. 0.86

03:28:26.000 She wants to hang out with scientists and comedians.

03:28:29.000 She loves hanging out with comics.

03:28:30.000 She hangs out with us all the time. 0.99

03:28:31.000 She's cool as fuck. 1.00

03:28:32.000 She can hang. 1.00

03:28:33.000 She's really cool to talk to.

03:28:35.000 Incubus is also...

03:28:37.000 They're really into science.

03:28:38.000 They're the most down-to-earth rock stars.

03:28:41.000 Jeff Beck...

03:28:42.000 That's awesome.

03:28:43.000 In terms of vocal performance, I did not understand what this guy was able to do multidimensionally with that whammy bar and using the slide as a plectrum.

03:28:55.000 This guy was developing techniques not to flash you, not to...

03:29:03.000 But it was just like, I'm going to spend my entire life not becoming a rock star, but becoming the ultimate technician because of the things I feel in my soul that I want to share with you people.

03:29:13.000 And I didn't get this.

03:29:15.000 And the only way I found Tal is that I thought like, okay, I was always thinking I'd get around to Jeff Beck.

03:29:21.000 And then he died.

03:29:22.000 I was like, okay, whatever.

03:29:22.000 I'm too busy.

03:29:23.000 And I started feeling shitty about it.

03:29:24.000 I thought, what happened to his bassist?

03:29:26.000 And I found out she followed me.

03:29:28.000 And I was completely...

03:29:32.000 Unprepared for, like, these people who are channeling the universe directly through music.

03:29:37.000 Yeah.

03:29:38.000 Right?

03:29:39.000 Yeah, that's what it is, right?

03:29:41.000 That's what it is.

03:29:42.000 When someone like a Gary Clark Jr. plays guitar, there's like something- Who you introduced me to at the store when I never met him. 1.00

03:29:49.000 It's just like- He's a fucking man. 0.98

03:29:52.000 Well, music, science, and humor are my three things that I use to measure human intelligence. 1.00

03:30:00.000 You can't use an IQ test to get up in the stratosphere.

03:30:03.000 These are the three things that actually discriminate.

03:30:07.000 Humor, music, and science.

03:30:11.000 In general, I can assure you that when you order a sandwich at Subway, if you do so, you don't do it in any particularly special way.

03:30:18.000 But let me just say this.

03:30:19.000 I saw you work up this thing about professional wrestling is gay over many nights because you kept inviting me to the store.

03:30:27.000 And, you know...

03:30:30.000 Like this whole controversy about you and Jews and money, it really hurt me because I've never seen anybody as non-bigoted as you.

03:30:39.000 And I've hung out with you drunk.

03:30:41.000 And this stuff would come out. 1.00

03:30:43.000 And it's just like such bullshit. 1.00

03:30:44.000 But I did have this envy, which is I want to be the gays and get you to work up actually what's going on with Jews and money and take the William Tell shot and Where you get past this sort of dime store stupid shit and actually, 1.00

03:31:02.000 like, basically the thing about Jews and money is the Jews that had money survived. 0.99

03:31:08.000 And the Jews that didn't have money died in the camps.

03:31:12.000 And every diaspora community, whether it's the overseas Chinese, or you have the Parsis in India, or you have the Gujaratis in the east of Africa...

03:31:22.000 The issue isn't money, Joe.

03:31:24.000 It's liquidity.

03:31:25.000 All of us diaspora communities have to have liquidity or when things turn bad, we get screwed.

03:31:32.000 Right?

03:31:33.000 And there is some routine.

03:31:34.000 What I found about you and the gays and professional wrestling thing, just for people who don't know, I was sitting there at the comedy store and Joe says, I was watching professional wrestling and it is so gay.

03:31:48.000 That is definitely not how I set it up.

03:31:50.000 Wait a second.

03:31:51.000 At all.

03:31:52.000 And the audience freaks out.

03:31:54.000 That's definitely not how it was set up.

03:31:56.000 And then you turned around and looked at us and you said, wait a minute.

03:32:00.000 I didn't say it was bad.

03:32:02.000 You did that.

03:32:04.000 Yeah.

03:32:04.000 Right?

03:32:05.000 And it was like this...

03:32:06.000 Wait, wait, wait.

03:32:07.000 What?

03:32:07.000 He just turned all the negative energy in the room on us for our latent homophobia?

03:32:12.000 And then it was like...

03:32:15.000 We all had it.

03:32:16.000 And then we realized we had it.

03:32:18.000 And then, if I was sitting next to a gay guy and I started the evening homophobic, I guarantee you by the end of that act, which you figured out over multiple times that I saw, We were sitting there ready to hug each other.

03:32:29.000 And I want you to do the same thing for us Jews.

03:32:32.000 No! 1.00

03:32:33.000 I want you to figure out your fucking money and Jewish thing and do for us what you did for the gays because that was a transformative experience. 1.00

03:32:43.000 When I saw Chappelle take that shot on behalf of Kanye, I have to take a Kanye detour. 1.00

03:32:49.000 Okay.

03:32:50.000 People do not understand what happened with Kanye.

03:32:53.000 And I want to talk about this from a Jewish perspective.

03:32:57.000 Kanye...

03:32:59.000 In 2018, for some reason, Candace Owens, of all people, was like my fan.

03:33:04.000 And she called me up.

03:33:05.000 She said, I'm meeting with Kanye, which is my dream.

03:33:07.000 I want you to be there.

03:33:08.000 I was like, what?

03:33:09.000 All right.

03:33:10.000 I show up. 0.58

03:33:11.000 Kanye is the most kind, creative, mentally ill, wonderful, generous person you could imagine.

03:33:21.000 That's a great way to put it.

03:33:22.000 Okay.

03:33:23.000 Okay.

03:33:25.000 Kanye is like, can you come over tomorrow?

03:33:27.000 Can you come out to Calabasas?

03:33:30.000 We're like hanging out, me and Kanye, as if this makes any effing sense.

03:33:34.000 By the way, he's got an NDA that is the most ghetto lawyer thing I've ever seen. 0.99

03:33:38.000 It's like, if you say anything about this meeting, we'll take your child, we'll take your left testicle. 0.99

03:33:42.000 You will have nothing. 0.99

03:33:43.000 I'm like, I am not signing this.

03:33:45.000 Well, you're not meeting Kanye.

03:33:46.000 It's like, fine.

03:33:46.000 It's only Calabasas.

03:33:47.000 I'll take an Uber home. 0.99

03:33:48.000 F you.

03:33:50.000 They call up Kanye.

03:33:52.000 Don't make him sign.

03:33:53.000 Just come through.

03:33:53.000 Oh, that's so funny.

03:33:55.000 And I'm like hanging out with Kanye, like geek and the rap god.

03:34:00.000 And like he's got this videographer who's like filming everything.

03:34:04.000 And I'm like, I cannot deal with this person.

03:34:06.000 Send him away. 0.79

03:34:07.000 So he sends him away.

03:34:08.000 And Kanye and I have this heart-to-heart.

03:34:11.000 And let me tell you something.

03:34:12.000 This is uncomfortable to say.

03:34:14.000 I cannot imagine a kinder, more creative, more gentle, more loving, more inclusive person.

03:34:21.000 He invites me on the spot to a listening party for his new tracks.

03:34:25.000 And I say, I have to get home to pee in the kids.

03:34:28.000 He's like, well, you don't understand.

03:34:29.000 It's Kanye's album.

03:34:30.000 I'm dropping it.

03:34:31.000 And he's like, I don't care.

03:34:32.000 It's my wife and my kids.

03:34:34.000 I gotta get home.

03:34:34.000 So he's like, okay, come to Wyoming.

03:34:36.000 So he's inviting me to Wyoming with him.

03:34:38.000 I'm like, dude, I'm a math person.

03:34:42.000 Cut it out.

03:34:43.000 He's like, well, you have to come to Wyoming.

03:34:45.000 All right.

03:34:46.000 We start talking about the concept of slavery in Jewish and black tradition.

03:34:51.000 Now, part of the reason that Jews and blacks have very high tension is because we have very similar experiences.

03:34:58.000 We both have a really deep relationship to slavery.

03:35:01.000 In our case, it's Passover.

03:35:02.000 In their case, it's the history we all know.

03:35:07.000 And I say to Kanye, there are three levels of slavery in Jewish thought. 0.89

03:35:11.000 There's chattel slavery where we're actually enslaved.

03:35:14.000 Then there's cultural slavery where we're a diaspora community in other people's lands. 0.69

03:35:18.000 And then there's self-slavery where we can't get past ourselves.

03:35:21.000 Kanye, we're grooving all this stuff.

03:35:24.000 We're walking around Calabasas, and people are yelling out of car windows, like, you know, Kanye, we love you!

03:35:30.000 And every time they do it, I remember that there's a Crip alert. 0.82

03:35:32.000 The Crips have issued an alert from Long Beach that if Kanye strays out of Calabasas, he's to be taken out.

03:35:38.000 What?

03:35:39.000 Yeah.

03:35:40.000 When was this?

03:35:40.000 I don't know.

03:35:41.000 Look up Crip alert in Kanye.

03:35:42.000 Jesus Christ.

03:35:43.000 Okay.

03:35:44.000 So Kanye's like, okay, there are three levels.

03:35:46.000 We're reviving, blah, blah, blah.

03:35:49.000 And I get this call from Kanye the next day, because I'm not I'm just thinking I'm going to be killed in a drive-by shooting because I can't get home to my wife because I'm hanging out with Kanye.

03:36:02.000 Nothing makes sense in the world.

03:36:03.000 Wow.

03:36:05.000 Jesus Christ.

03:36:06.000 Now, I get this call from Kanye.

03:36:08.000 He's like...

03:36:09.000 Eric, I can't tell you how amazing this all is.

03:36:11.000 I was just at TMZ and I was explaining the theory about slavery and how this whole thing works and Jews and Passover and I was explaining how much I love Hitler. 0.79

03:36:23.000 What did you say?

03:36:26.000 I was explaining how much I love Hitler. 0.98

03:36:29.000 Huh?

03:36:30.000 I missed a meeting?

03:36:31.000 A memo?

03:36:31.000 Something?

03:36:32.000 And I realize, okay, Kanye is focused on this spiritual Sunday thing.

03:36:38.000 And I realize what this is.

03:36:40.000 It's Jesus.

03:36:40.000 Jesus loves everybody.

03:36:43.000 No matter how horrible you are, Jesus loves you.

03:36:46.000 Okay?

03:36:47.000 And Kanye is thinking, what would Jesus do?

03:36:50.000 And I'm realizing, like, I'm thinking at top speed.

03:36:53.000 Like, he's talking about Hitler at TMZ, whatever.

03:36:56.000 I said, Kanye, I want you to listen to me.

03:36:59.000 He's like, yeah?

03:37:00.000 I said, I want you to run to TMZ. They don't want to destroy you.

03:37:04.000 I guarantee it.

03:37:05.000 Because you're a long-term property that matters.

03:37:09.000 And there's no reason that they would want to destroy you.

03:37:12.000 And I want you to beg them not to release what you said.

03:37:16.000 Don't question me.

03:37:17.000 Just do it.

03:37:21.000 He runs to TMZ, and they don't release this thing, and I guarantee you that they have the videotape.

03:37:29.000 So, when you hear that the Jews, and I love Dave Chappelle, but this thing he did on Saturday Night Live was not right.

03:37:39.000 Okay? 0.98

03:37:41.000 Yes, Jews are so fucking traumatized That we are super sensitive to anything that makes it possible for people to tell jokes. 0.99

03:37:51.000 Can I stop you for a second there? 0.99

03:37:52.000 Sure.

03:37:53.000 He has to do that.

03:37:55.000 That's his job.

03:37:57.000 His job is to make fun of something that's in the zeitgeist.

03:38:01.000 I hear you.

03:38:02.000 That is in the zeitgeist.

03:38:03.000 I know you were going to say this.

03:38:04.000 The fact that Kanye West is being accused of this anti-Semitism and Dave Chappelle is hosting Saturday Night Live.

03:38:14.000 Yeah.

03:38:14.000 He's got this fake letter and he goes, and that, Kanye West, is how you buy some time.

03:38:20.000 That shit was fucking hilarious. 1.00

03:38:22.000 Wasn't it? 1.00

03:38:22.000 There's nothing not right about that. 1.00

03:38:23.000 That was fucking hilarious. 0.96

03:38:25.000 Sorry, Joe. 0.99

03:38:25.000 I'm going to go toe-to-toe with you on this one. 0.99

03:38:27.000 You don't think that was funny? 0.99

03:38:27.000 Oh, not only was it funny, Dave Chappelle is a fucking William Tell-level artist. 0.99

03:38:34.000 He took his bow at an incredible distance and hit an apple off of somebody's head. 0.98

03:38:39.000 So what is wrong with that?

03:38:42.000 The issue is that it opens up this issue for people who are not at Dave Chappelle's level.

03:38:49.000 Okay, so you made a joke about pizzas, Italian... 0.98

03:38:53.000 So you have to cater your joke to the dumbest people that are listening? 0.99

03:38:57.000 No, no, [... 0.95

03:38:59.000 Your problem, Joe, to be honest with you, is that you and Dave Chappelle are held in such high regard by me, And I completely defended you 100%.

03:39:11.000 This man has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

03:39:14.000 100%.

03:39:14.000 Well, thank you.

03:39:15.000 No, you don't need me.

03:39:17.000 Appreciate you.

03:39:17.000 There's nothing...

03:39:18.000 I do need you.

03:39:19.000 Love you, too.

03:39:19.000 I love you.

03:39:23.000 Here's to some bullshit. 0.99

03:39:24.000 Love you, too. 1.00

03:39:26.000 No, you don't need to defend me because there's not a trace of it in you.

03:39:30.000 So him saying that...

03:39:30.000 Wait, wait, wait.

03:39:31.000 I'll do it.

03:39:32.000 Okay, please.

03:39:33.000 Okay.

03:39:34.000 I view you guys as the marksmen You're the surgeons. 1.00

03:39:39.000 You're the fucking neurosurgeons who can get between two neurons and cut the bad one and leave the good one. 0.99

03:39:45.000 That is, to me, I know that you guys think it's about mockery, it's about having fun, blah, blah, blah. 1.00

03:39:50.000 I've been through the comedy mill.

03:39:53.000 There is an aspect to Carlin's comedy, for example, or Richard Pryor's or Lenny Bruce's that is timeless and immortal because comedy is so much more than getting a belly laugh.

03:40:08.000 It's at a different level.

03:40:11.000 I expect you guys to work – to keep – I want you to keep workshopping that thing until it finds its actual highest level.

03:40:20.000 I'll tell you the joke about pizza's money in Jews, right? 1.00

03:40:26.000 I used to go to the Harvard School in Los Angeles, which was the top, most exclusive Episcopalian school in L.A., And I was sandwiched between these two beautiful, muscular Aryan men, and they would make the following joke. 1.00

03:40:43.000 Hey, Eric, what's the difference between pizzas and juice?

03:40:48.000 A pizza doesn't scream when you put it in an oven, right?

03:40:53.000 That's a terrible joke. 0.99

03:40:55.000 It's a terrible joke, and I lived it every fucking day, okay? 0.99

03:41:00.000 What is welling up right now on Twitter with Elon purchasing this is a huge amount of antisemitism. 0.95

03:41:06.000 And what we need as a country, as you and I both know, and we've both been in the same fight, is we need a massive coming together.

03:41:12.000 We need to laugh together.

03:41:13.000 We need to break bread together.

03:41:14.000 We need to marry each other and have babies so that we're effectively indistinguishable from each other eventually.

03:41:22.000 We need love.

03:41:24.000 And partially what the function of humor is, is to facilitate that.

03:41:28.000 This is how Jon Stewart reported the news.

03:41:30.000 Hey, I'm the fake news!

03:41:31.000 But he was actually reporting what?

03:41:33.000 The real news.

03:41:34.000 Right.

03:41:34.000 Okay.

03:41:35.000 It is my reverence for Dave Chappelle, which says that he fell short of his mark.

03:41:40.000 He took the shot and he hit the apple.

03:41:42.000 He didn't hit the kid.

03:41:44.000 But he made it look like everybody could do that.

03:41:46.000 And now we've got an enormous number of anti-Semites who are focused on this thing, right?

03:41:53.000 I was on your show years ago and we asked this question about Jews in physics and I made a joke of it. 0.99

03:41:59.000 You said like, why are there so many Jews in physics? 1.00

03:42:01.000 And I said, well, I guess we're lucky in physics.

03:42:03.000 I'm done with that too.

03:42:05.000 We have taken this language about under-representation into our souls through this diversity, equity, inclusion.

03:42:13.000 And if you ask about under-representation, you have to ask about over-representation.

03:42:17.000 And you know who's over-represented?

03:42:18.000 Jews.

03:42:19.000 And now we're calling it the Jewish question. 1.00

03:42:20.000 Why are there so many fucking Jews? 1.00

03:42:22.000 Jews, Jews, Jews, Jews. 1.00

03:42:24.000 Because we're fucking great at physics. 0.99

03:42:26.000 And we're great at comedy. 0.98

03:42:27.000 And I'll tell you something.

03:42:29.000 You want to get rich?

03:42:29.000 I know that you're rich and you're a comic.

03:42:32.000 But in general, is comedy a good way to make money?

03:42:34.000 No.

03:42:35.000 It's a terrible way to make money.

03:42:37.000 And how many people are there in it?

03:42:39.000 Jews everywhere.

03:42:40.000 We've got Jews who are poor, Jews who are rich, this and that. 0.99

03:42:43.000 Jews are basically humans turned up to 11. We're on all extremes. 0.99

03:42:47.000 We're more criminal than other people.

03:42:49.000 We're less criminal than other people.

03:42:51.000 We are in such danger at the moment because everything is breaking down.

03:42:55.000 And when you can't figure out what's causing you a problem, people are always going to blame diaspora communities.

03:43:01.000 They're going to blame overseas Chinese.

03:43:03.000 They're going to blame Gujaratis.

03:43:04.000 They're going to blame Parsis. 0.97

03:43:05.000 They're going to blame Jews.

03:43:06.000 And we are vulnerable right now.

03:43:08.000 And the issue wasn't that Chappelle was great.

03:43:11.000 Do we have anyone better than Chappelle?

03:43:13.000 He's a genius.

03:43:15.000 Straight up gangster genius.

03:43:18.000 Amazing.

03:43:18.000 What we're looking for...

03:43:21.000 Is routines that elevate us beyond what Dave Chappelle turned in.

03:43:26.000 I'm not claiming that Chappelle didn't make a hilarious routine.

03:43:29.000 I'm claiming something different.

03:43:31.000 I'm claiming that right now we need to heal.

03:43:35.000 You don't think this humor helps us heal?

03:43:37.000 You don't think that that was funny?

03:43:39.000 And that that, first of all, no one laughing at that is laughing because they're anti-Semitic, right? 0.88

03:43:44.000 They're laughing just because it's a brilliant thing.

03:43:46.000 It's funny. 0.94

03:43:47.000 He's poking at the bear in the room that Kanye West fucked up, and he's like, and this is how you buy some time. 0.69

03:43:55.000 You remember Owen Benjamin? 0.91

03:43:56.000 Sure.

03:43:56.000 Okay.

03:43:57.000 I think Owen Benjamin is brilliant.

03:44:00.000 He did so many great routines, really insightful, incredibly clever, made me laugh.

03:44:06.000 And he went down a bad path at some point.

03:44:08.000 And I'm sad about it because I think he's a genius.

03:44:11.000 I think the best of Owen Benjamin is fantastic.

03:44:14.000 What do you think causes people to go down bad paths?

03:44:17.000 Because they don't know what's controlling them.

03:44:19.000 They don't know what's going wrong.

03:44:21.000 I'll tell you what the Jewish strategy straight up is. 0.55

03:44:24.000 We over-contribute.

03:44:26.000 We over-succeed.

03:44:26.000 We over-contribute.

03:44:28.000 You wanna know who built America as a superpower?

03:44:31.000 It's Edward Teller, it's Stanislav Ulam, it's Robert Oppenheimer. 1.00

03:44:36.000 When you allow Jews into your country, we pay more taxes, we do more philanthropy, we make tons of fucking money, we do some criminal shit that's stupid, we've exploited people, which is unfair. 1.00

03:44:49.000 It's a complicated equation, but that's our equation for survival. 1.00

03:44:53.000 On balance, we over-contribute, over-succeed, and we love you.

03:44:56.000 We want to be strong.

03:44:57.000 We're loyal.

03:44:59.000 And right now, people are scared that there's something that is denaturing our entire society, Joe.

03:45:06.000 We're not ourselves.

03:45:07.000 We're not strong.

03:45:08.000 We're not confident.

03:45:09.000 We can't be masculine.

03:45:10.000 We can't have children.

03:45:12.000 We're tiptoeing around trans. 1.00

03:45:15.000 And the suspicion for who is keeping us from having a normal interaction is always going to be Jews. 1.00

03:45:20.000 You want to know why I'm all over the Epstein thing?

03:45:23.000 Because maybe it is Israel. 0.75

03:45:26.000 And if it is Israel, it's not Israel. 0.69

03:45:28.000 It's like a tiny department inside of the Mossad. 0.67

03:45:30.000 And maybe it's our own intelligence services, but I'll be goddamned if it isn't a Jew who isn't going to be pushing this. 1.00

03:45:36.000 Now, I've been invited to South America, for example, by a very prominent dual national between the United States and Israel.

03:45:44.000 It's like, why don't you come down to my ranch, Eric, where we have fun with Sindera Luminoso, like the Shining Path.

03:45:53.000 It's like, what does that mean?

03:45:55.000 I'm being intimidated, Joe.

03:45:57.000 I'm being threatened.

03:45:59.000 Because obviously Jeffrey Epstein looks a lot like Ellie Cohen, the super spy of Israel who held orgies in his Damascus apartment, right? 0.67

03:46:09.000 Now, I don't know.

03:46:10.000 Jeffrey Epstein may be a U.S. intelligence product.

03:46:13.000 It may be a joint product.

03:46:14.000 It may be an Israeli product.

03:46:15.000 I don't know.

03:46:16.000 But I can tell you this.

03:46:17.000 It's not the Jews who are behind Jeffrey Epstein.

03:46:20.000 And I will be goddamned if I won't be pushing that because I'm going to stand up for 12-year-old girls, whoever they are. 0.97

03:46:26.000 This is an immoral human being.

03:46:28.000 I've been on this since the beginning.

03:46:29.000 It's not fair.

03:46:32.000 So we do do this thing where in some sense you have to understand how traumatized we are as a people.

03:46:41.000 When I hear we aren't oppressed because we drive fancy cars, it's like my first cousin once removed died on the train out of Kiev when the Germans invade, froze to death.

03:46:52.000 My cousin is a Mengele twin who forgave Mengele, which is what Kanye was trying to do.

03:46:57.000 He was trying to say, I'm Jesus.

03:46:58.000 I can tell that Hitler deserved love and deserved admiration. 0.97

03:47:03.000 And it's like, well, look up Eva Kor, right?

03:47:06.000 You have this tiny, tiny Jewish person, who's my cousin, who forgave Mengele. 0.96

03:47:11.000 If there's anybody worse than Hitler, it might be Mengele, right? 0.99

03:47:15.000 But Kanye was in the wrong scene.

03:47:18.000 He wasn't equal to the thing he was taking on.

03:47:21.000 It wasn't his to forgive Hitler and to celebrate Hitler. 0.54

03:47:25.000 He's not Jesus.

03:47:26.000 But I feel terrible about what happened to Kanye.

03:47:29.000 And I'll tell you one of the reasons I feel terrible about it. 0.65

03:47:33.000 Because all of us were enjoying Kanye's mental illness. 0.99

03:47:36.000 His genius comes straight out of his mental illness. 0.92

03:47:42.000 And we loved him because he was so unfiltered, so real.

03:47:45.000 So when I see Rihanna holding him up, my feeling is, no, it's not for you to hold him up.

03:47:50.000 I tried to save Kanye.

03:47:52.000 I didn't even say anything about it.

03:47:54.000 Right?

03:47:55.000 And Kanye, I think, turned on me.

03:47:57.000 He stopped returning my phone calls because he felt manipulated.

03:48:01.000 But the fact of the matter was I wanted Kanye to persist and I didn't want his comment about I love Hitler and TMZ to take him out because I thought he was a force for good.

03:48:11.000 So, yes, there may be Jews that are exploiting him financially, but there are also Jews who are trying to save him, as I believe Lex tried to do a million times. 0.74

03:48:20.000 And it's like...

03:48:22.000 Hey, we love each other.

03:48:25.000 Ultimately, we're all family.

03:48:27.000 And the thing that I want out of humor is I want our best comedians to be a level or two above where they already are.

03:48:34.000 So that was my complaint about Dave Chappelle.

03:48:37.000 It wasn't that Dave Chappelle wasn't funny.

03:48:38.000 He's funny as hell.

03:48:40.000 It's like I thought beyond that.

03:48:44.000 You should have done a routine that brought us all 100% together.

03:48:48.000 And what you did was that you did a routine because you tried to get it at this level.

03:48:54.000 My opinion of Dave Chappelle is that he's way up here.

03:48:57.000 Let me explain how a monologue works.

03:49:02.000 There's a big difference between a monologue and a stand-up set.

03:49:06.000 Dave was gonna do a stand-up set on that, he would work that at multiple different clubs a night, and he would do it over months. 0.98

03:49:19.000 It would be something that he would experiment one way, he would add things to it, he would subtract the shit that he didn't like anymore. 0.95

03:49:31.000 It takes time. 0.98

03:49:33.000 It takes time.

03:49:33.000 Well, that's what you invited me to see.

03:49:35.000 Yes.

03:49:36.000 Right?

03:49:36.000 Well, you've seen it, so you understand how it goes.

03:49:39.000 You showed it to me.

03:49:40.000 Yeah.

03:49:40.000 But you saw it in actual practice.

03:49:43.000 100%.

03:49:43.000 And I've got to tell you how much more I value watching you as an intellect, which you often run away from.

03:49:50.000 I'm just a comedian.

03:49:51.000 I watched you look at the crowd as feedback and change your act and change your act and change your act until it just sang.

03:49:59.000 Well, thank you.

03:49:59.000 But while you're doing that, you're trying to find the beats.

03:50:04.000 It's a rare art form where you're practicing it in front of people.

03:50:08.000 And the difference between a monologue, which Dave has to prepare for in a very short amount of time, versus a set.

03:50:15.000 Like, if you want him to have a very complex and nuanced take on a subject, it's going to take time.

03:50:23.000 It'll take a little time to figure out.

03:50:25.000 And, I mean, I can only speak for myself, but my process is months. 0.91

03:50:29.000 I have some bits, and then they start off great, and then they die, and then they come back, and then they fucking get better.

03:50:37.000 And some bits, I have to abandon them.

03:50:39.000 They're just not working.

03:50:40.000 They're not growing.

03:50:41.000 Whatever it is.

03:50:42.000 And you don't know until you try it in front of an audience.

03:50:45.000 And I try it a bunch of different ways. 0.98

03:50:46.000 And sometimes I try, and I'm like, oh my god, what the fuck have I got myself into? 0.96

03:50:50.000 And I have to pull myself out of the bush. 0.71

03:50:52.000 But it's because there's this experimental aspect to doing live stand-up in front of these crowds.

03:50:58.000 And after a while, I've been listening to us talk on podcasts, a lot of fans now know.

03:51:03.000 Most people don't, though.

03:51:04.000 Most people have no idea what's going on, which is good, because you just want them to have fun.

03:51:09.000 But there's a thing going on where you're trying to sculpt it.

03:51:12.000 If he wanted to take that subject and advance it to this Dave Chappelle, you know, coral belt and jujitsu level, because that's what he is, he would figure out a way to do it.

03:51:25.000 And he would have it in a way that wouldn't be objectionable to you.

03:51:28.000 I didn't find it objectionable.

03:51:30.000 I thought it was a hilarious take on something that was current.

03:51:32.000 It was in the news.

03:51:33.000 It was a thing.

03:51:34.000 He was just mocking the fact that Kanye was being attacked.

03:51:38.000 He was not diminishing it in any way.

03:51:40.000 He was making light out of...

03:51:42.000 There was a target.

03:51:43.000 He hit it.

03:51:44.000 That's how it is.

03:51:46.000 I appreciate what you're saying.

03:51:47.000 And my response to this, and this is what I say to my fellow Jews, I say, look...

03:51:52.000 I don't want more.

03:51:53.000 I don't want less Joe Rogan or less Dave Chappelle.

03:51:56.000 I trust these people.

03:51:57.000 I want more.

03:51:58.000 I want to go to the uncomfortable place so that we can all actually open it up.

03:52:04.000 Just like if you were doing MDMA-assisted therapy, right?

03:52:07.000 The idea is if you don't actually touch the thing that's uncomfortable, which is like, why aren't you so fucking successful?

03:52:14.000 Why don't they have so much money?

03:52:14.000 Why are they in control of this stuff?

03:52:16.000 It's like, I want to go through that.

03:52:18.000 And I trust you guys, both of you.

03:52:21.000 And there are probably a few other people that I trust to do it, but it's not many.

03:52:25.000 And the point being, which is that when other people were like quick to say, you know, this is anti-Semitic, this is uncomfortable, this is this, I had a different response, which is, and I think you're teaching me, it's not the monologue that you want, you want the routine that is workshopped and perfected.

03:52:40.000 Yeah, the routine takes a long time.

03:52:43.000 Maybe I didn't have that, but I would say the following.

03:52:45.000 I believe that ultimately, and I don't want to make it the job of the community, but ultimately that is what it is, is...

03:52:53.000 I think?

03:52:58.000 I think?

03:53:08.000 Well, who's really behind this?

03:53:09.000 What's really going on, right?

03:53:11.000 And this is a recipe for another Holocaust. 0.98

03:53:17.000 Because if you're asking, well, who's really behind this?

03:53:20.000 I guarantee you one of the answers is always, it's those guys.

03:53:25.000 We are counting on you.

03:53:27.000 And I just want you to know that and how much love we have.

03:53:30.000 And it's not an obligation to stand up for you when you come under fire.

03:53:34.000 The whole N-word thing.

03:53:36.000 It's like I posted one picture with my arm around you.

03:53:38.000 Like, any questions?

03:53:40.000 You know.

03:53:41.000 You guys are essential.

03:53:43.000 It's not just that it's fun to go out and have it.

03:53:46.000 Because it is fun.

03:53:47.000 But the point is...

03:53:49.000 Jon Stewart was doing a real job reporting the news when nobody could report the news. 0.99

03:53:54.000 And in a large measure, comedy or MDMA, something like that, is necessary for us to examine our bullshit. 0.93

03:54:04.000 And it's not a task for you because if I say that to you, you're like, dude, you're loading too much onto it. 0.91

03:54:09.000 I know how comedians think.

03:54:11.000 No, it's not that.

03:54:12.000 It's that you really only want to take on subjects that you find fascinating in that moment.

03:54:21.000 Like when you write out ideas, it has to be genuine.

03:54:26.000 It has to be a thing where you're trying to work something through.

03:54:30.000 It can't be an assignment.

03:54:31.000 Yeah, I don't understand a lot of anti-Semitism and I don't understand a lot of racism.

03:54:38.000 I don't understand it.

03:54:39.000 It doesn't make sense to me.

03:54:40.000 Because it's not natural to you.

03:54:42.000 It's also there's too many fascinating people from all walks of life.

03:54:46.000 The idea that you would categorize people by what geography they're from or what color their skin is... 0.99

03:54:52.000 That to me seems so ridiculous and so stupid that I don't entertain it. 1.00

03:54:57.000 It's not a thing that bounces around my head. 0.99

03:54:59.000 So even to workshop it and defend it, to me it's like, oh my god, there's so many more interesting things about people.

03:55:05.000 What's interesting to me about people What is the individual human beings take and the accumulation of all of our takes together when we try to work through this thing?

03:55:15.000 What is this thing that we're experiencing together?

03:55:18.000 What is this?

03:55:19.000 What is culture?

03:55:20.000 What is the learned history of all the human beings that have ever lived before us?

03:55:24.000 Like what is the purpose of our existence here?

03:55:26.000 What is the actual Size of the cosmos that we're existing in like all these different things.

03:55:34.000 It's finite nature of our existence.

03:55:36.000 What is good about community and love and friendship?

03:55:40.000 What is good about all those things?

03:55:41.000 All those things are interesting to me.

03:55:43.000 But when it gets to like sexual orientation or color, it's like who cares? 0.68

03:55:48.000 I don't care.

03:55:49.000 It's just humans.

03:55:50.000 There's no...

03:55:51.000 I didn't want to defend on any particular thing.

03:55:54.000 My point was I've never seen Any bigotry at all because of this radical love.

03:56:01.000 Sorry for saying it, but, like, I know that you love all walks of life.

03:56:06.000 And you don't need anyone to say that.

03:56:09.000 So I was almost embarrassed to say it.

03:56:11.000 But, like, to me...

03:56:14.000 We're in an emergency situation.

03:56:16.000 Whether you can feel it or not, like if you look at, there's a guy named, what is it?

03:56:21.000 Oh, he's figured out Leather Apron Club, which is both the name for the Junto that Benjamin Franklin established, which is something that we revere, and Leather Apron was the name for Jack the Ripper, so it's very clever, Martin Bailey, right?

03:56:34.000 But he tracks, like, how many Jewish people does Joe Rogan have on his program, you know?

03:56:40.000 And...

03:56:43.000 It's incredibly important that all of us who are in a position to do this, who don't have to necessarily worry about, like, our next paycheck at a company, help everyone come together.

03:56:57.000 Because right now our government isn't helping us come together.

03:57:00.000 We're all sort of vaguely suspicious of each other.

03:57:03.000 And nobody wants the assignment, in my opinion, Of like doing work? 0.89

03:57:08.000 It's also a very dumb distraction. 0.99

03:57:11.000 To be distracted by our differences is so foolish. 0.99

03:57:14.000 It's just so unnecessary. 0.59

03:57:15.000 Like our differences are what empowers us because if it wasn't for all the different cultures that exist in the United States, it's one of the reasons why it's so fascinating here is because this is a country of immigrants.

03:57:28.000 You know, with me, it's my grandparents.

03:57:30.000 And, you know, with other people, they're direct descendants or they've come over here from somewhere else.

03:57:35.000 Everyone here is from somewhere else.

03:57:38.000 And we're all interacting with each other.

03:57:40.000 And look at what's been created here.

03:57:42.000 Look at the amount of- And we've succeeded for the most part after a tremendous number of missteps.

03:57:48.000 Yes.

03:57:49.000 Right?

03:57:50.000 And so partially what you and I are both animated by, which is like, look, we're not even done with the work.

03:57:56.000 But look how far we've come and look at what a shining example this is to everyone else.

03:58:00.000 And this is like...

03:58:02.000 I wish I could communicate, Joe, how much fear I have right now as a Jewish person on Twitter with the well of hatred that I feel coming up, which has been suppressed.

03:58:17.000 And you want to know what I want?

03:58:18.000 I want the anti-Semites to speak up.

03:58:22.000 I want to hear them.

03:58:23.000 I want them to have free speech.

03:58:26.000 You have two choices in a society like this.

03:58:28.000 You can either try to control what people think and what they say, or you can have a cultural penalty for saying something that is horrible.

03:58:36.000 And I want us to have free speech with a cultural penalty for these things, as opposed to having to regulate what you can and cannot say.

03:58:56.000 And bring love.

03:58:57.000 You know, this was the thing that I wanted for Kanye.

03:59:00.000 He was trying to say something else.

03:59:02.000 I don't want him destroyed.

03:59:04.000 I don't want him to continue to destroy himself where he's hanging out with Milo and Nick Fuentes and all this nonsense.

03:59:11.000 He was trying to say, Jesus told us to love each other, right? 0.97

03:59:15.000 And he was fucking up the message. 0.99

03:59:17.000 And the issue is, I don't want a Jewish... 1.00

03:59:25.000 Well, you don't want any rifts, right?

03:59:28.000 Not just Jewish, but any rifts at all.

03:59:30.000 And if we take it to the thing that you were talking about in the beginning with the fear of what's going on right now with Russia and Ukraine.

03:59:42.000 In the absence of this idea that we're supposed to be opposed to other people, people that we don't even fucking know, why would there be any conflict at all between Russia and Ukraine?

03:59:53.000 Why would there be any conflict at all between us and them?

03:59:54.000 Because they're so close.

03:59:55.000 They're almost the same thing.

03:59:57.000 But what is going on?

03:59:57.000 Someone is controlling people to get people to do things for research.

03:59:59.000 Well, exactly.

04:00:00.000 There's a game that we don't understand.

04:00:02.000 And you're a part of it whether you like it or not. 0.99

04:00:05.000 And that's what's fucked. 1.00

04:00:06.000 It's being run by psychos. 1.00

04:00:07.000 And I can tell you, I have so much Ukrainian trauma because my family ran away from pogroms, right? 1.00

04:00:16.000 Do I support Ukraine? 0.72

04:00:17.000 100%.

04:00:18.000 Because they were invaded by Russia.

04:00:20.000 Hello?

04:00:21.000 Do I support this at the level that I want World War III to happen? 0.93

04:00:24.000 No.

04:00:25.000 No one should want that.

04:00:26.000 No one should want that. 0.97

04:00:27.000 And so you're trying to have this complicated thing, which is like, look, there's serious shit in our past. 0.90

04:00:33.000 But you're being hurt by a power, but we partially antagonize the power. 0.92

04:00:37.000 I'm trying to pull all these- And there's a lot of money involved.

04:00:39.000 Oh my God.

04:00:41.000 And not only that- There's a lot of money involved in this.

04:00:43.000 And this is the thing which I didn't understand with Sam.

04:00:45.000 It's like he says, there's nothing you can tell me about Hunter Biden.

04:00:48.000 It's like, Burisma?

04:00:50.000 There is money that flows through Ukraine because it is a place where there are chemical labs and biological labs and there's bakshish and payment and all this kind of stuff. 0.81

04:01:01.000 And my feeling is we're not allowed to know.

04:01:03.000 We're not allowed to pull it apart.

04:01:05.000 We're just supposed to say- It's on the other side of the ideological fence.

04:01:08.000 You're not even allowed to examine it.

04:01:10.000 Right.

04:01:10.000 And my feeling is- Crazy.

04:01:11.000 This is my children.

04:01:12.000 I'm on this planet.

04:01:14.000 You're going to potentially create a nuclear holocaust over something where you're getting paid in a way that I'm not.

04:01:20.000 And if we don't fundamentally figure out how to love each other and to coexist and to celebrate each other, and this is another thing about, like, I'll tell you a Jewish thing.

04:01:31.000 We have this one story we repeat every year in the Passover story, which is our name for Egypt is Mitzrayim.

04:01:39.000 And Mitzrayim means the narrow places, and it's literally like the birth canal.

04:01:44.000 It's the second birth of the Jewish people.

04:01:47.000 And right now, all of earth is Mitzrayim. 0.95

04:01:50.000 This is the womb.

04:01:51.000 And you say like, you know, somebody, not you, but like somebody says, well, the Jews consider themselves the chosen people.

04:01:57.000 Do you know why we're chosen?

04:01:59.000 We view ourselves as chosen, not because like we're the best, because we're responsible.

04:02:05.000 We believe that we are responsible for this planet.

04:02:08.000 And we unleashed, we Jews, Edward Teller and Stanislav Ulam, both Jews, unleashed the power of the sun on the planet, which is dooming us to a very bad end. 0.90

04:02:19.000 And I believe that we are chosen in the sense that it is our responsibility, not our privilege, not our this, not our that, not that we're on top, but it's our responsibility to shepherd the birth of the human race into an interstellar species.

04:02:36.000 And, like, does that sound far-reaching?

04:02:39.000 Does that sound crazy? 0.57

04:02:40.000 100% to my ears, that sounds nuts.

04:02:43.000 But ultimately...

04:02:45.000 In my opinion, we feel responsible, not for ourselves, not to save ourselves, but for the entire planet.

04:02:51.000 And I hope that other cultures feel the same responsibility and that they feel chosen in the same way.

04:02:56.000 But right now, if you want to ask me, I forgo all sorts of financial opportunity because I feel like we unleashed holy hell on Earth that may be a civilization-ending thing.

04:03:09.000 And what are we going to do about it?

04:03:10.000 If we are open, we have to realize that what we unleashed to take care of Hitler and Nazism and the barbarity of Japan, like the rape of Nanking, we now have to deal with for all time. 0.71

04:03:24.000 And this is like really important to us.

04:03:26.000 We need to shepherd civilization to safety.

04:03:30.000 And if you think about the Passover story, It's a tremendous question.

04:03:35.000 Why repeat this one story that seems bizarre?

04:03:38.000 Like you're enslaved in Egypt, you follow some crazy leader, you go through the Red Sea, you wander around the desert for 40 years, and you find the Promised Land.

04:03:48.000 This is the story of where we are exactly at this minute.

04:03:51.000 It's not... 1.00

04:03:52.000 Like an old-fashioned, stupid fairy tale. 1.00

04:03:55.000 It's like you've been telling this story every year for a reason because the people who waited for the bread to rise, that's why we eat unleavened bread, died. 0.99

04:04:06.000 And the people who understood early, okay, this sounds completely crazy, but you're going to have to make a break for it through the Red Sea, wander around in pain before you actually get to safety.

04:04:17.000 That is the story of right now.

04:04:19.000 And to bring it back to the UFOs, My feeling about this is I'm largely on this program right now, not to promote a book.

04:04:29.000 I don't have a Patreon yet.

04:04:31.000 Maybe one day.

04:04:31.000 Who knows?

04:04:32.000 There's nothing I'm promoting other than the fact that right now we are in so much mortal danger as a human species.

04:04:39.000 Think about everything that you love, whether it's Drown in My Own Tears or Box B Minor Mass or the works of Shakespeare.

04:04:46.000 Right.

04:04:46.000 Gone forever.

04:04:48.000 Back to the Stone Age. 0.76

04:04:50.000 I refuse to...

04:04:52.000 And this is what I've had such a hard time. 0.98

04:04:55.000 It's like, well, Eric, you're so arrogant. 1.00

04:04:56.000 You're so, you're insane. 1.00

04:04:58.000 You're crazy. 1.00

04:04:58.000 It's like, no, I know what time it is and I love you and I love all you people. 1.00

04:05:03.000 We're getting out of here and we're going to do it and we're not going to embrace any of this kind of stupid division. 0.99

04:05:10.000 It's now time. 0.99

04:05:11.000 It's like, this is Shackleton's story.

04:05:13.000 Shackleton stepped up when any normal human being would say, look, take whatever resources you have and have a good time because you're done.

04:05:21.000 It's like, no.

04:05:22.000 We're down.

04:05:23.000 It's the ninth inning.

04:05:25.000 This is a bad situation.

04:05:28.000 This is the time that legends are made and we're sitting around worried about like, can I get the Tesla with gull-wing doors? 1.00

04:05:34.000 It's like, fuck that shit. 1.00

04:05:37.000 Now is the time for legends. 1.00

04:05:39.000 And whether you know that this is the time or not, we have to come together.

04:05:44.000 And that's one of the reasons that like...

04:05:49.000 I wanted you to understand how much I appreciated what you've done for underprivileged groups, people who are hurting.

04:05:55.000 People don't really understand how big your heart is because you hide it.

04:05:59.000 And that's one of the things I wanted for the Jewish people and I wanted from you, which is like more Chappelle, more Joe Rogan, more humor, more love.

04:06:08.000 Let's get through this thing.

04:06:09.000 Let's stop blaming each other.

04:06:12.000 Let's stop blaming each other and let's go pee again and wrap this up.

04:06:15.000 We're at like four hours.

04:06:17.000 Dude, we've been rambling.

04:06:18.000 You've been rambling.

04:06:19.000 You've been saying some brilliant things, though, and I appreciate you very much, and I appreciate you coming on here always. 0.96

04:06:24.000 And I don't think we got any closer to understanding what the fuck UFOs are, but I understand more of it. 0.79

04:06:31.000 Thank you, my friend. 0.94

04:06:32.000 I'm in.

04:06:32.000 Appreciate you very much.

04:06:33.000 Appreciate you.

04:06:34.000 Goodbye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - February 22, 2023

Joe Rogan Experience #1945 - Eric Weinstein

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Summary

Transcript