The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1955 - Cliff Gray

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

00:00:12.000 Hello, Cliff.

00:00:13.000 What's up?

00:00:14.000 What's up, man?

00:00:15.000 Nice to meet you in person.

00:00:16.000 You too.

00:00:17.000 We've been chatting back and forth online for quite a while now.

00:00:20.000 Yeah, man.

00:00:21.000 You know, it's funny.

00:00:22.000 I was looking at it.

00:00:22.000 I think it's been like five or six years since our first interaction.

00:00:27.000 How did you get involved being a hunting guide?

00:00:31.000 What's your path to that?

00:00:33.000 Yeah, man.

00:00:34.000 So, I guess it's a long story.

00:00:36.000 You know, I grew up in a rural area.

00:00:39.000 My dad was a cattle rancher, and then he did a little outfitting when I was a kid.

00:00:44.000 Well, it's kind of a long story, man, because I thought this was normal when I was a kid, but...

00:00:51.000 When my dad was an adult, he was a cattle rancher, and then he went back to vet school.

00:00:56.000 And so he actually left outfitting and cattle ranching and pursued that.

00:01:00.000 And that was when he was like in his 40s, you know?

00:01:03.000 And so that was my first exposure to, you know, being an outfitter or guiding was through my father.

00:01:09.000 And then honestly, man, like growing up, I hunted all the time.

00:01:13.000 I've been obsessed with, you know, hunting since I was 10, 12 years old.

00:01:18.000 And then I went and kind of did a more traditional, I guess, lifestyle.

00:01:24.000 I went to school, went to undergrad, went to business school, and then I worked in finance for a few years.

00:01:31.000 And we can get deep into why that didn't last.

00:01:36.000 Maybe you can help us explain why the banks are failing right now.

00:01:41.000 I don't know, man.

00:01:42.000 It's been so long since I've been in that world.

00:01:45.000 What a different contrast, though.

00:01:48.000 The contrast between that world and the world that you live in now.

00:01:51.000 Dude, it's crazy to think about because I still know people that are finance guys.

00:01:57.000 My brother's a finance guy.

00:01:58.000 As you live in hell?

00:02:00.000 Well...

00:02:00.000 He can't be happy.

00:02:01.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:02.000 He's doing all right because he doesn't...

00:02:05.000 All the investment strategies that he's doing for the most part are like hedge type of strategies.

00:02:11.000 But he's doing okay.

00:02:13.000 But yeah, it's a different world, man.

00:02:16.000 It's definitely a different world.

00:02:17.000 Yeah.

00:02:18.000 And I always look back on my path and I think like, well, did I choose the right thing?

00:02:25.000 Wow.

00:02:25.000 I don't know, but I'm happy, so I guess...

00:02:28.000 If you're happy, you chose the right thing, but there's no right thing.

00:02:32.000 There's just life and decisions.

00:02:35.000 This idea that you're gonna, like, oh, I wish I could do it differently.

00:02:38.000 Well, you definitely can't, so don't wish that.

00:02:42.000 There's no way you can do it differently.

00:02:44.000 Right. 1.00

00:02:44.000 Unless you have a fucking time machine. 1.00

00:02:46.000 And even if you have a time machine, you will already have the knowledge of what happens if you do it wrong. 0.99

00:02:52.000 So if you go back and try to do it right, who knows how you're going to fuck that up.

00:02:56.000 Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:02:57.000 It's not life.

00:02:59.000 Imagine living your life knowing what's going to happen if you do it certain ways.

00:03:02.000 That would be a terrible way to live.

00:03:04.000 Like, you would never be in the moment.

00:03:07.000 You would be constantly filled with this anxiety of making sure that you don't do the thing that you have already done.

00:03:14.000 Right.

00:03:14.000 So that you could live your life in a different way.

00:03:16.000 I mean, I can imagine if, like, you know, you run a red light and crash into a car and you go, oh my god.

00:03:23.000 How could I stop that from happening again?

00:03:25.000 I have to make sure I don't do that again.

00:03:27.000 Sure.

00:03:27.000 Things like that.

00:03:28.000 Yeah.

00:03:28.000 That makes sense.

00:03:29.000 Yeah.

00:03:29.000 But like, a whole life path?

00:03:31.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:32.000 Like, change your whole life?

00:03:33.000 Yeah.

00:03:34.000 I wish I did it a different way.

00:03:35.000 Well, you definitely didn't, so keep going.

00:03:38.000 Right.

00:03:38.000 Man, life's so path-dependent.

00:03:43.000 You choose certain things and there's probably a million different ways it could go.

00:03:48.000 For me, there was a point in my life when I was doing finance.

00:03:51.000 I was a trader when I was a young guy.

00:03:56.000 There's just kind of a moment where I'm like, man, dude, I just want to do something else.

00:04:01.000 And then you start down that path and it leads you in wild places, man.

00:04:05.000 Well, literally, for you.

00:04:07.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:08.000 For sure, dude.

00:04:08.000 Look at me right here, where I'm at right now.

00:04:11.000 I would have never imagined this in my wildest dreams, dude.

00:04:15.000 That's funny, but I'm at wild places like the wild.

00:04:17.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:18.000 That, too.

00:04:19.000 Both things.

00:04:20.000 Both things are kind of wild.

00:04:21.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:21.000 Yeah.

00:04:22.000 So how did you make this choice to get off the path?

00:04:27.000 Because for a lot of people, I think one of the problems with the path is you get married, you get a house, you have kids, you have responsibilities, and then you're stuck.

00:04:37.000 Because you really can't change careers because you have so many dependents.

00:04:42.000 There's so many people depending upon you.

00:04:44.000 You have so many responsibilities.

00:04:46.000 You have to kind of just suck it up and keep doing this thing that you don't enjoy for your family.

00:04:51.000 Yeah, so to answer that question, man, I think I have to be a little humble about it, Joe, because I came from a family, including my wife.

00:05:01.000 When I met my wife, man, I was a guy that was well-educated and looked like a guy that was going to be on a traditional path to...

00:05:13.000 You know to great success as a finance guy and that's when I met my wife and then I like I tricked her man because I switched it up on her you know but she stayed with me the whole time and so I gotta I gotta give her that but also my family too man like you can imagine like you know my my parents you know wanted me to get a great education I mean they my family man like basically lived the American dream like none of them they didn't grow up wealthy you know nor did I but they kept me comfortable And

00:05:43.000 then, you know, they got great success and they wanted, you know, they got success through hard work and they wanted to see me, you know, have a path of like, you know, go to Wall Street, go be an attorney, go do something like that because that seemed like the easy path,

00:05:59.000 I think, in their mind and seemed to make sense and they were giving me that opportunity.

00:06:03.000 But when I decided not to do that, man... 1.00

00:06:05.000 Not one time have my parents or my brothers for that part said like, dude, you're doing, you're being an idiot. 1.00

00:06:13.000 You know what I mean? 0.99

00:06:13.000 Like when I told them like, hey, I'm going to buy. 0.99

00:06:16.000 So essentially I bought an outfitting business that had been, you know, pretty much run into the dirt, you know, and it was just, it was just federal permitting where I could expand into a bigger, you know, guiding business in Colorado.

00:06:29.000 When I told them, I was going to do that.

00:06:32.000 I was quitting my job at the time.

00:06:35.000 I had transitioned working for a wealthy family who treated me awesome.

00:06:40.000 But when I said, hey man, I'm going to go be an outfitter, my parents were like...

00:06:47.000 I mean, my dad was like, sounds awesome.

00:06:49.000 You know, my brother was like, sounds awesome.

00:06:51.000 I can't...

00:06:52.000 And I don't think that everybody grows up in a family that's that supportive of it.

00:06:56.000 So I don't want to say that like...

00:06:59.000 I, you know, did it all, like, I'm just a guy that just said, hey, I'm gonna do something cool and independent.

00:07:05.000 It was what I wanted to do, and I had support, man.

00:07:08.000 So I can't, I can't...

00:07:09.000 Well, that's very fortunate.

00:07:10.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:11.000 That's very fortunate.

00:07:12.000 So what, how did you, so if you're in the middle of this world, this financial world, how did you make that transition?

00:07:19.000 Like, what were the steps involved in making the transition?

00:07:22.000 Did you just immediately up and quit and just figure out how to get a job as an outfitter, or were you already doing some outfitting?

00:07:28.000 Yeah, so I've been in, I mean, all through my childhood, you know, and then even when I was an undergrad in school, I hunted all the time.

00:07:38.000 And I had done a bunch of guiding, and I was exposed to it.

00:07:41.000 And the other thing, for my type of outfitting and guiding, I had been exposed to livestock and horses and mules my whole life.

00:07:49.000 And that's a big part of, like, wilderness outfitting.

00:07:52.000 You've got to be familiar with how to pack mules, how to pack horses, how to ride horses up in the mountains because that's a huge proportion of what I did just to get into remote areas.

00:08:05.000 Not to dive into the depth of my childhood, but I was exposed to that.

00:08:10.000 It, you know, the first 20 years of my life where, you know, I had that skill set.

00:08:14.000 So that's, that's the first part of it.

00:08:16.000 And then, you know, how I actually mechanically did it.

00:08:21.000 I mean, so the, just to give you some context, me and my brother start when I was young, at a business school, me and my brother started a financial company, and it changed, changed in a bunch of different ways, and he still operates it.

00:08:35.000 But when I was, I think I want to say like 22, 23, I started working for our biggest client.

00:08:41.000 And he was a phenomenal guy and I was doing more like family wealth management for him.

00:08:46.000 And literally, Joe, I was just kind of struggling day to day with being, I always wanted to be in the outdoors and I wanted to go do something else.

00:08:54.000 And I literally just walked into his office and And I was like, Bob, I love you, man, but I gotta go.

00:09:02.000 I gotta go do something else.

00:09:04.000 And I kind of had a plan to go back to Colorado.

00:09:07.000 I was born in the area where I did most of my outfitting and guiding.

00:09:11.000 And it was funny because he looked at me and he kind of laughed because I think he knew it was coming.

00:09:17.000 He knew I just...

00:09:19.000 I mean, he came from a different world.

00:09:21.000 He'd grown up doing business deals and all that, and I grew up from somewhere else.

00:09:27.000 I think that's why he kind of enjoyed having me around, because we would talk about our different backgrounds and stuff.

00:09:34.000 But he was just like, well, the first thing he said is, Cliff, I'm just going to ask you one time, man.

00:09:39.000 Can I give you more money?

00:09:40.000 I'm like, Bob, we shouldn't even talk about it, man.

00:09:42.000 He's like, all right, dude, go for it.

00:09:45.000 Well, that's great.

00:09:46.000 So literally like a week later, me and my wife, we moved to Colorado, and I had a...

00:09:52.000 Oh, what a supportive wife. 1.00

00:09:53.000 Yeah, dude.

00:09:54.000 That's awesome.

00:09:55.000 Yeah, she's been epic the whole way.

00:09:59.000 So how did you go about starting and getting clients?

00:10:02.000 So if you're starting an outfitting business, you're a young guy, you're leaving the financial sector, and you're going and starting and getting clients.

00:10:09.000 How do you go about making that happen?

00:10:11.000 Yeah, so part of the...

00:10:14.000 How that process worked for me is when I got to Colorado, I started doing some packing and guiding.

00:10:22.000 This is after I worked in finance.

00:10:25.000 So I took like, you know, kind of a, most people would say a step back in my career.

00:10:31.000 You know, so one day I was like looking at financial models and trading and that sort of thing.

00:10:37.000 And then three weeks later, I was like helping guys pack, you know, elk out of the wilderness on mules, you know, that sort of thing.

00:10:45.000 So I started getting exposed to it that way again.

00:10:49.000 And then what I did was I started just looking for a business to buy.

00:10:55.000 And so, when you're operating in the wilderness areas, you've got to have federal permitting.

00:11:01.000 So I got all that figured out.

00:11:02.000 I bought a business.

00:11:03.000 And then it's just like hand-to-hand combat, man.

00:11:06.000 I mean, the first year that I was guiding and outfitting, I think I had, you know, maybe like a dozen clients or something like that.

00:11:13.000 The last year that I outfitted, I had like north of 200 clients.

00:11:19.000 Wow.

00:11:19.000 So it's just hand-to-hand combat.

00:11:22.000 And then, you know, as you learn an area...

00:11:25.000 And we can get into the nitty-gritty details of it, but these wilderness areas, there's no roads in them, man.

00:11:32.000 So, you know, you're talking about hundreds of thousands of acres, and you're talking about elk that are pretty heavily pressured.

00:11:37.000 I mean, it takes years just the grind of, like, learning the area.

00:11:42.000 And so over time, just, like, just, you know, step by step, man.

00:11:47.000 And then I started to get good guides working for me over the years, and we, you know, we all just got where we learned the area.

00:11:54.000 You know, along the way.

00:11:57.000 And then, I mean, the reality is, the last three or four years, there was never a problem booking people.

00:12:04.000 We were always booked, you know.

00:12:06.000 That's how that world is in a lot of ways.

00:12:10.000 Like, once you get established and you keep people happy, And it's like sort of word of mouth.

00:12:14.000 Yeah, you stay booked.

00:12:15.000 Hey, I went with Cliff.

00:12:15.000 It was great.

00:12:16.000 He knows how to get there.

00:12:19.000 What you do is fascinating to me because it's one of the more interesting kinds of hunting.

00:12:27.000 Where you go really deep in with animals.

00:12:31.000 You bring in mules or horses, and you go very, very deep in to find these animals.

00:12:37.000 And I think most people on the outside...

00:12:43.000 That think about hunting, they don't really understand how grueling it is, how unbelievably difficult it is to get, you know, 15, 20 miles in.

00:12:53.000 Yeah.

00:12:54.000 And then if you do shoot an animal, to get that animal out is an unbelievable struggle.

00:13:00.000 Yeah.

00:13:01.000 And if you're talking about public land, it's really one of the best ways to find elk or to find really good elk.

00:13:09.000 Right.

00:13:11.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:11.000 No, I mean, you have to, in a lot of these areas, I mean, people think about Colorado, Joe, and they think, so I hunted what technically would have been the, they say the White River elk herd is the largest elk herd in the world, right?

00:13:27.000 Right.

00:13:27.000 So you have that perception that, oh, okay, well, you go there, you go into the flat tops, or you go into the surrounding forest, you know, Forest Service property, and you just put your backpack on, get off the road, and there's going to be elk everywhere.

00:13:40.000 Well, I mean, it's a ton of habitat.

00:13:43.000 And the thing about a lot of that country is all the habitat's good.

00:13:49.000 You know, you can go other places, and they've got elk, but you, you know, the...

00:13:55.000 Only 10% of the actual habitat is going to hold elk, right?

00:13:59.000 Well, the flat tops or, you know, these big chunks of space in Colorado, I mean, it's all good elk habitat.

00:14:05.000 You know, until you get massive amount of snow that limits the feed for elk, I mean, elk could be everywhere.

00:14:10.000 So what I'm getting to is they get crazy dispersed.

00:14:14.000 And the only way to get into a lot of these areas is either backpacking, you know, on your foot, hiking.

00:14:21.000 On your feet, hiking.

00:14:23.000 Or, you know, you've got to pack in with horses and mules.

00:14:26.000 Do you guys go in and set up a wall tent?

00:14:29.000 Yeah.

00:14:30.000 And then are you there for weeks or months at a time?

00:14:32.000 Like, how do you do it?

00:14:33.000 Yeah, so if we're talking, so all the, if we're talking elk, the elk is a species, almost all of that was out of wall tent camps. 0.73

00:14:44.000 And we pack those in.

00:14:45.000 Now, I did a fair amount of sheep and goat guiding too.

00:14:48.000 Most of that we did out of backpacks.

00:14:50.000 Just because a lot of the habitat that mountain goats and sheep live in, it's not really conducive to packing with horses just because you end up getting above timberline and there's just some logistical reasons.

00:15:04.000 A lot of times it's just better to backpack on them.

00:15:07.000 But on elk, it's almost always, so you're packing your camp with horses and mules, and then you're coming back in.

00:15:14.000 Sometimes you'll hunt off foot.

00:15:16.000 You know, if the camp's in a situation where you can cover ground on foot and hunt, then you'll do it that way.

00:15:23.000 But a lot of times you'll actually bring horses back in and hunt a horse back, too.

00:15:27.000 And that's like a whole, people don't, I mean, you know, taking care of horses, you know, if you got 15 horses and mules in camp, like, you know, 12 miles back in the wilderness, like, it's, you know, it feels like going back in time, man.

00:15:40.000 Yeah.

00:15:40.000 You know, I mean, that's why, that's why, I mean, honestly, Joe, by the time I sold, so I sold my main business like 18 months ago.

00:15:49.000 By the time I sold it, the majority of my crew was Amish.

00:15:53.000 Really?

00:15:54.000 Yeah.

00:15:54.000 Amish?

00:15:55.000 Yeah.

00:15:55.000 How did you find these guys?

00:15:56.000 Do they just, so...

00:15:58.000 Because they don't use electricity, right?

00:16:00.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:02.000 It's not like you can get them online.

00:16:04.000 Can you get them online?

00:16:05.000 Do they cheat?

00:16:06.000 So, yeah, yeah.

00:16:07.000 So, dude, I got some Amish buddies that I love, man, and I don't, so I don't want to like, like, Mark, if you're listening, man, and you probably shouldn't be listening because you're Amish, but... 1.00

00:16:22.000 But no, so the answer to your question, man, is it just depends on, you know, what church they're from and the rules, you know, the rules that they have established, you know, and what they're doing.

00:16:33.000 So if it's for a business, a lot of them can use email.

00:16:36.000 They can use a cell phone.

00:16:37.000 Yeah.

00:16:37.000 Oh, what a hack.

00:16:38.000 Yeah.

00:16:39.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:16:40.000 That's ridiculous. 0.99

00:16:41.000 Then you're not Amish. 0.99

00:16:43.000 That's the whole thing. 1.00

00:16:44.000 You can't use fucking email. 0.99

00:16:46.000 Well, here's the deal. 0.99

00:16:49.000 I'm not an expert at them, but I became very good friends with some of them.

00:16:54.000 I had some of them work for me for four or five years.

00:16:57.000 And man, there's some things about them that are absolutely amazing.

00:17:03.000 You know what I mean?

00:17:03.000 Hard-working people.

00:17:04.000 Hard-working is an understatement, man.

00:17:06.000 And the other thing that's wild about them is I had a lot of very young Amish guys come work for me. 0.96

00:17:11.000 And we can get into the details of that.

00:17:14.000 Technically, they hadn't committed to the Amish church, so they weren't technically Amish yet.

00:17:19.000 Oh, was it the Rumspringer thing?

00:17:20.000 Yeah, they would be kind of in that process.

00:17:23.000 For people who don't know, they have like a time period of an indefinite time period where they're allowed to just run around and party and do drugs and sleep around.

00:17:33.000 And then they have to come back to the church if they want to.

00:17:36.000 Right.

00:17:36.000 And when they came out to my place, they didn't do any of that stuff other than work.

00:17:40.000 You know, but...

00:17:42.000 But anyways, they would come out and what I noticed, man, is if you take an 18-year-old Amish guy and you're just doing stuff around like ranch, because we were outfitting and guiding a lot of time, but we also had to manage the livestock and we had kind of a ranch that we had to take care of.

00:18:00.000 Those guys at 18, they know a ton because they've already been working for seven years.

00:18:06.000 You know what I mean?

00:18:07.000 They know how to frame a door.

00:18:09.000 You know, they...

00:18:10.000 They could show up to my place, Joe, and they're wearing sandals and shorts, and you're thinking, this guy's never been around livestock, and you'd be like, hey man, go grab that mule and saddle it.

00:18:24.000 Every single one of them knew how to do it, because they grow up catching horses and putting them on a buggy every day.

00:18:33.000 It's just wild that they learn all these skill sets really early on.

00:18:39.000 So in some ways, from an education standpoint, None of them had a hard time communicating with me or, you know, we always could get through all that.

00:18:49.000 You know, maybe they didn't have as good as spelling or they didn't have as good, like, algebra skills or something because they missed out on some of that education, maybe.

00:18:57.000 But I can tell you from a work ethic and, like, a hands-on skill set, they're amazing, man.

00:19:03.000 Yeah, that's an education, too.

00:19:04.000 It's interesting because we all want to think about education in terms of, like, things you can use in the corporate world or You can use in the business world, but the reality of education is you're learning things, and they learn so many things, I'm sure, that the average person who works in an office is never going to understand.

00:19:23.000 Take an average guy who works over at Google and say, hey man, go put a saddle on that mule. 0.98

00:19:30.000 And they're like, what the fuck are you talking about, right? 0.99

00:19:32.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.99

00:19:33.000 That's a learned skill.

00:19:35.000 It's a learned skill that has a diminished value in our world.

00:19:39.000 But in your world, in the world of outfitters, it's a very high value.

00:19:42.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:19:43.000 And the thing about their education, too, it's like the homeschooling, I'm sure it varies wildly.

00:19:48.000 Yeah, and that's why I don't mean to make a judgment on them.

00:19:51.000 I'm sure some of them are really good at homeschooling their kids and some of them...

00:19:55.000 It's just like regular homeschooling.

00:19:57.000 I've met some homeschooled kids that are phenomenal.

00:20:00.000 They're really interesting kids, but the parents did a great job of giving them a very nuanced education and then also committing them to activities so they interacted with a lot of kids on a regular basis.

00:20:10.000 They just didn't go to school during the day with kids.

00:20:13.000 And it's like if you have that kind of time and that kind of commitment and you You know, maybe you're just not very happy with the regular school system.

00:20:21.000 Right.

00:20:23.000 People used to think that it was a bad idea to homeschool your kids, but during COVID, I think a lot of people kind of opened their eyes.

00:20:29.000 First of all, A, how difficult it is, but also that there's a value to being there while your children are learning things, so you can kind of communicate with them and go through, especially if you have an expertise in something.

00:20:41.000 My youngest daughters used to do martial arts, and It was kind of like a mixed martial arts class and I would go with them to mixed martial arts class and sit on the sideline.

00:20:56.000 And then a couple of times some stuff came up, and I said to the instructor, I said, actually, you shouldn't really do it that way.

00:21:03.000 Yeah.

00:21:03.000 Because, like, they weren't, you know, as a black belt in jujitsu, I'm like, you're actually going to get your back taken if you teach people this path.

00:21:11.000 Right.

00:21:12.000 Like, this is a very vulnerable path.

00:21:13.000 Like, let me show you the difference.

00:21:14.000 And so I'd go on the mat with them and show them the difference.

00:21:16.000 The next thing I know, I'm doing it with my daughter, and I'm having her do it, and I'm working with little kids.

00:21:20.000 It was really exciting.

00:21:21.000 It's fun to be able to teach your kids something.

00:21:23.000 Yeah.

00:21:24.000 They love that you know something that they can learn.

00:21:27.000 It gives them pride.

00:21:30.000 These people that are learning from their families and from their community, it's a completely different way of life, but it's probably a more healthy way of life than the average person experiences just going to a regular,

00:21:47.000 mundane, very regimented, traditional school system.

00:21:54.000 Yeah.

00:21:54.000 No, I think that's for sure the case.

00:21:57.000 But the electricity thing is ridiculous. 0.87

00:21:59.000 Yeah. 0.61

00:22:00.000 Well, you know, it's funny.

00:22:03.000 I'll tell you about a conversation I had with one guy that I consider a pretty good friend.

00:22:09.000 I'll be honest with you.

00:22:10.000 The Amish, from my observations, they don't make a real strong effort to have close relationships with people outside of the community.

00:22:20.000 At least I always felt that way.

00:22:22.000 But one individual I would say is a very good friend of mine.

00:22:25.000 And I asked him, like, well, dude, it seems like so...

00:22:28.000 It seems like, like, where do you stop the technology?

00:22:31.000 Where do you start?

00:22:33.000 And he actually had a rational explanation.

00:22:36.000 He said, look, man, like, we make these judgments...

00:22:39.000 And I think a big part of it is we're just trying to judge, like, we know the value of having a certain pace of life, and these technology judgments are based on that.

00:22:50.000 We want to be able to still, you know, succeed, feed our families, because they still got to deal with, like, the realities of, you know, they got to buy land to have their farms, all that stuff.

00:23:00.000 But he's like, look, it's all about pace of life for us.

00:23:03.000 So if we look at a technology and it's going to change that dynamic, then certain churches may choose not to do that.

00:23:10.000 So I'm with you, man.

00:23:12.000 There's odd things that they do, but I kind of get that explanation too.

00:23:16.000 I kind of get it, but it's just weird that they have that electricity loophole.

00:23:20.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:22.000 What does it say?

00:23:23.000 Word processor.

00:23:24.000 A new word processor with more memory and more speed may specifically be for the plain people, by the plain people.

00:23:32.000 Is that what they used to call themselves?

00:23:33.000 I don't know.

00:23:34.000 It comes up in a few advertisements for this.

00:23:37.000 It's called the Classic Series.

00:23:39.000 But the advertising is for Amish?

00:23:41.000 Because it's calling the plain people. 0.97

00:23:43.000 I mean, it's being sold in rural Pennsylvania.

00:23:46.000 Yeah, look at that.

00:23:47.000 Look for Jake or Jonas.

00:23:49.000 Shippensburg, Pennsylvania.

00:23:50.000 Hold on, so what is it here?

00:23:52.000 It's a word processor, but it's non-electrical.

00:23:57.000 Oh, this one does.

00:23:58.000 Oh, yeah.

00:23:59.000 Oh, that's a...

00:24:00.000 But the last one, it looked like it was just...

00:24:02.000 It was.

00:24:03.000 It looked like...

00:24:04.000 What is that? 0.99

00:24:04.000 I mean, like, what is powering that fucking thing? 0.99

00:24:07.000 It's got USB, floppy. 0.99

00:24:09.000 What?

00:24:09.000 No modem, no phone port, no internet.

00:24:12.000 Nothing fancy.

00:24:14.000 Not just a locked computer.

00:24:16.000 No modem, no phone port, no internet connection, no outside programs, no sound, no photographs, no games, and no gimmicks.

00:24:22.000 Nothing fancy.

00:24:23.000 Just a workhorse for your business.

00:24:24.000 High-end word processing, typing tutor, auto spell check, auto word fill.

00:24:29.000 What year is this from?

00:24:30.000 2008, I think?

00:24:31.000 Oh, wow.

00:24:32.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:32.000 They have a lot of this kind of stuff where they kind of work around the limitations that they're...

00:24:39.000 That's funny. 0.99

00:24:40.000 Look at the fucking horse and buggy on the street there, Jamie. 1.00

00:24:44.000 Look at the... 1.00

00:24:45.000 That shit is so annoying. 1.00

00:24:47.000 If you're ever in rural Pennsylvania, and you get stuck behind one of those guys, like, oh, Christ. 1.00

00:24:51.000 I remember I found this and said that their cell phone usage, though, is kind of common.

00:24:56.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:24:57.000 That's a fucking cheating move. 1.00

00:24:59.000 How dare you. 1.00

00:25:01.000 For business in particular, man, I think that's pretty much, like, standard now.

00:25:06.000 Well, I guess they'd have to have a phone line.

00:25:08.000 If you're going to have a phone line, why wouldn't you have an internet line?

00:25:11.000 Yeah.

00:25:11.000 Or a cell phone line, rather.

00:25:13.000 Yeah, my parents used to live in Harrisburg.

00:25:16.000 Oh, okay.

00:25:17.000 I used to see those folks.

00:25:19.000 Yeah.

00:25:19.000 When you drive to them.

00:25:20.000 You also drive through the fucking areas where they raise cattle. 1.00

00:25:25.000 It was the worst smell. 1.00

00:25:28.000 Oh, where the Amish were? 0.99

00:25:30.000 It only was Amish, no.

00:25:32.000 That didn't have anything to do with Amish.

00:25:33.000 It was just cattle raising.

00:25:35.000 Oh, okay.

00:25:36.000 I think that was like, I don't know whether it was factory farming, what kind of farming.

00:25:41.000 It might have been like, I know they feed a lot of silage, you know, like processed, feed that's been basically fermenting, and that's what that smell is a lot of the time.

00:25:52.000 Oh, really?

00:25:53.000 Yeah.

00:25:53.000 That makes sense, because it wouldn't be the cow itself.

00:25:56.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:25:56.000 Do you know what silage smells like?

00:25:59.000 No, I don't.

00:26:00.000 So a lot of times when you're driving, you'll see tarps.

00:26:05.000 There'll be cattle there.

00:26:06.000 You see it by dairies a lot of the time.

00:26:07.000 There'll be cattle there, and then you'll see these tarps laying out.

00:26:11.000 And what that is is they've got hay underneath it, and they ferment it.

00:26:15.000 And it's silage and then they feed it to the cattle.

00:26:18.000 Is the fermenting on purpose to give them more probiotics?

00:26:23.000 Yeah, I think so.

00:26:24.000 I'm not an expert on it, Joe.

00:26:27.000 But I think part of it is it just makes it more palatable so they can, I think, just consume enough calories.

00:26:34.000 Oh, interesting.

00:26:35.000 And then I'm sure there's some nutritional aspect to it, too.

00:26:37.000 I just don't know the details of it.

00:26:39.000 That makes sense.

00:26:40.000 That's why it would stink so bad.

00:26:42.000 Because I thought it was just death.

00:26:44.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:45.000 In the time when I was driving to see my folks, I think it was the 90s.

00:26:50.000 Pretty sure it was the 90s.

00:26:52.000 So, like, I wasn't that hip to that stuff anyway. 0.93

00:26:54.000 I just thought it was just a stinky, dead area. 0.97

00:26:58.000 Sure. 0.93

00:26:58.000 Where they raised cows. 0.93

00:27:00.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:00.000 No, I hear ya.

00:27:01.000 But Christ, it stunk.

00:27:02.000 I couldn't imagine living there.

00:27:04.000 Because the problem with olfactory senses is you only detect changes in smells.

00:27:09.000 Oh, yeah.

00:27:09.000 So you just get accustomed to your neighborhood stinking.

00:27:12.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:13.000 Which is really weird. 0.99

00:27:14.000 It's hilarious you say that, because I got so used to the smell of horse shit when I was outfitting. 0.98

00:27:21.000 Like, you get so used to it, you don't even know it's around, man. 0.99

00:27:24.000 Right.

00:27:24.000 But, you know, if you're in a wall tent camp, and you're hunting elk for like seven or eight days, and, you know, it's like half snow, or it's half snow, and then it melts, so it's like muddy, you got all these horses tied up.

00:27:36.000 I mean, horseshit's everywhere, man. 0.99

00:27:37.000 It's in every lead rope, it's in everything, and you don't realize, you know, you're out there, you know, out there feeding the horses in the dark, and then you go into the cook tent, and And, you know, you start eating and you don't realize, you know, you got horse shit on your hands. 0.99

00:27:51.000 You just get used to the smell. 1.00

00:27:53.000 Well, horse shit's not a scary shit. 0.99

00:27:55.000 It's not really, yeah. 1.00

00:27:56.000 It's like it's processed hay.

00:27:58.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:58.000 It's just hay that's biologically, you know, it's sort of gone through the system of the horse.

00:28:04.000 It's not like dog shit. 0.99

00:28:05.000 Dude, isn't that funny? 1.00

00:28:06.000 Because all predator shit is kind of like off-putting. 1.00

00:28:10.000 Yeah, yeah. 1.00

00:28:11.000 Because it's rotten meat.

00:28:12.000 Yeah, dude.

00:28:12.000 Yeah.

00:28:13.000 You see lion shit or bear shit. 1.00

00:28:15.000 Like when you see deer shit. 1.00

00:28:16.000 You pick deer shit up. 1.00

00:28:17.000 Yeah, no big deal. 1.00

00:28:18.000 It's like little balls. 0.97

00:28:19.000 Yeah, yeah. 0.98

00:28:20.000 It's nothing.

00:28:20.000 Yeah, like my little boy, if he picks up an elk turd or whatever, it's like, oh, that's an elk turd.

00:28:28.000 But man, if he tried to pick up a bear shit or something, I'd be like, ah! 0.97

00:28:31.000 Right. 0.99

00:28:32.000 We'd also worry about parasites.

00:28:34.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:28:34.000 Dude, I think that might be, I mean, don't you think that's maybe why we're so prone to not be a little off-putting, off-put by it more?

00:28:42.000 Yeah.

00:28:42.000 Perhaps, right?

00:28:44.000 The smell?

00:28:45.000 Because it's interesting how animals approach the smell.

00:28:48.000 Like, I have a golden retriever, and when he finds...

00:28:50.000 I have a fox that lives in my neighborhood, and he comes into my yard.

00:28:54.000 It's pretty cool.

00:28:54.000 I got a video of him barking in my yard.

00:28:57.000 He's such a weird animal.

00:28:59.000 They have such a weird noise. 1.00

00:29:01.000 Anyway, shit's in my yard, and my dog finds his shit and rolls in it every time. 1.00

00:29:06.000 Like, for him, it's fucking perfume. 1.00

00:29:08.000 So he gets it, like, all over his neck and stuff. 1.00

00:29:11.000 Yeah.

00:29:12.000 Like, obviously, it's not off-putting for him.

00:29:14.000 Right. 1.00

00:29:14.000 Like, I think for him, I don't know what it is that dogs are doing, if they're disguising their smell with this shit. 1.00

00:29:22.000 Like, I don't know what they're doing. 0.99

00:29:23.000 They do the same thing with dead stuff.

00:29:25.000 Yeah, what are they doing?

00:29:26.000 I have no idea, man.

00:29:27.000 I don't know why that is.

00:29:29.000 It's weird, because they all do it.

00:29:31.000 You know, when they do it, you notice, like, they're, like, gleeful when they do it.

00:29:34.000 Oh, yeah.

00:29:35.000 Loving it.

00:29:36.000 Yeah, yeah. 1.00

00:29:36.000 He comes in with just shit smeared all over his neck. 1.00

00:29:39.000 I'm like, dude. 1.00

00:29:40.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:41.000 So obviously it's not off-putting for them, but humans don't roll around in it.

00:29:44.000 No, yeah.

00:29:45.000 Not the average.

00:29:46.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:48.000 That's an enigma, man.

00:29:49.000 You'll have to get an expert on it in that regard.

00:29:52.000 I don't even know how they'd figure it out.

00:29:55.000 There's no exact known cause of this.

00:29:58.000 Wolves do it to. 0.53

00:29:59.000 Oh, interesting.

00:30:01.000 I think wolves do it to disguise themselves from prey, but that's the best answer I found. 0.99

00:30:05.000 Well, then it makes sense that dogs do it, because dogs are just bitch-ass wolves. 0.99

00:30:10.000 Yeah, exactly. 1.00

00:30:12.000 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:30:13.000 You know, they're trying to get their scent covered or something. 1.00

00:30:18.000 Yeah, so if an animal's downwind, it's just like, ugh, I smell shit. 0.98

00:30:23.000 It's not like, oh my god, I smell a wolf. 0.94

00:30:25.000 Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:30:26.000 It would overwhelm the smell.

00:30:28.000 Well, what do you think about their bringing wolves to Colorado?

00:30:31.000 Do you have an opinion on that?

00:30:33.000 Yeah, man.

00:30:34.000 I got lots of opinions about it.

00:30:37.000 I mean, so it's going to happen for sure, you know?

00:30:42.000 Oh, man.

00:30:43.000 We could dive deep into this one, Joe.

00:30:46.000 It's an interesting thing.

00:30:47.000 Yeah, so...

00:30:48.000 I feel like as a person who has spent some time in the woods, not nearly as much as you, but I've spent enough time that I understand what...

00:30:57.000 The woods are.

00:30:57.000 I understand what the wild is.

00:30:59.000 And I don't think most people do.

00:31:00.000 I think people have a very goofy idea of what the wild is.

00:31:06.000 Like animals living in a way that they've lived for thousands of years.

00:31:12.000 And you just happen to be there.

00:31:14.000 And if you weren't there, it would take place exactly as you witness it without you being there.

00:31:20.000 It's like you have almost no influence on it.

00:31:22.000 They are wild.

00:31:24.000 They are living in the woods.

00:31:25.000 And wolves are dominant, intelligent, calculating predators that they eradicated from the West for a reason.

00:31:36.000 Yeah man, so I think you hit on a bunch of things that would like bring me back to my opinion on it and that's that A lot of this stuff, so I know they've basically described two different areas in Colorado where they're going to put the two first sets of transplants.

00:31:56.000 And one of them is like right in where, I mean, I rode that country with a horse like all over the place and the circle of where they're going to put those wolves is right there.

00:32:06.000 So I know where they're going to put those, you know, one of the spots.

00:32:09.000 I know the spot intimately.

00:32:11.000 I know the wildlife there intimately.

00:32:12.000 How many wolves are they going to put in? 0.67

00:32:14.000 So my understanding is off the bat, the first year, and I believe their goal is by December of this year, it's going to be like between 15 and 30, I believe is the first bunch.

00:32:30.000 And they're going to have them in two different spots.

00:32:33.000 But in that, you know, in that Vail, Vail corridor, you know, up to the flat tops in there, you know, so they're probably going to put 15 to 20 wolves in there.

00:32:44.000 The thing that you hit on, Joe, that I think kind of forms my opinion is, I mean, these areas, when you go in them, man, they seem so wild, right?

00:32:53.000 Like, you know, I could, the flat tops, I could get on a horse and I could ride for 15 hours and not see a road, you know, Ten hours and not see a road.

00:33:03.000 And they seem so wild, even to me, being there.

00:33:06.000 But I don't think that people realize how much humans have already affected that landscape and how it doesn't matter.

00:33:17.000 This myth that putting wolves back in that landscape is going to turn it back to some ecosystem that was here 300 years ago.

00:33:29.000 I think it's a figment of their imagination, man.

00:33:33.000 And the reason I say that is because I've also spent a fair amount of time in British Columbia that seemed so much more wild to me.

00:33:42.000 And let me kind of like give you context of why that is.

00:33:46.000 You know, have you ever been to Vail?

00:33:49.000 Colorado?

00:33:50.000 Colorado?

00:33:50.000 No.

00:33:51.000 Okay.

00:33:51.000 Oh, I have, but not...

00:33:53.000 Outside.

00:33:54.000 Okay, so if you look at the dynamic of that area, there's a huge highway that goes from, Highway 70 that goes from Denver on the Front Range up, you know, past all the ski resorts into Vail, into Eagle,

00:34:09.000 and then it kind of goes down through a big canyon, Glenwood Canyon, and kicks back into Aspen.

00:34:16.000 All the winter range there is split by this massive highway, and then that highway has an eight-foot game fence along the whole thing, and then along that Vail Valley where they are going to put these wolves,

00:34:31.000 there's 50,000 full-time residents, and there's probably double that in the high season, ski season, plus you've got these huge ski resorts. 0.98

00:34:42.000 I guess what I'm getting at is when somebody tells me that the low-hanging fruit to kind of rewild that areas as wolves, it's just bullshit. 0.91

00:34:52.000 You know what I mean? 0.95

00:34:53.000 How is it getting passed though?

00:34:55.000 Well, it got passed by a ballot initiative.

00:34:58.000 The ballot initiative is how wolves got to the situation they are now.

00:35:06.000 And basically what the ballot initiative did is it forced the CPW to take on this goal of transplanting the wolves.

00:35:16.000 So it wasn't the CPW's choice.

00:35:18.000 And they...

00:35:20.000 I don't know the exact laws, Joe, but the CPW, and that's the Colorado Parks and Wildlife, they're in charge of managing the wildlife in Colorado.

00:35:31.000 How can they put something like the transplanting of wolves, a very complex, It's a biological problem.

00:35:42.000 I mean, you're dealing with biology and wildlife.

00:35:45.000 How can they put that as a ballot initiative?

00:35:48.000 How can they put that in the hands of people other than wildlife conservation experts, wildlife biologists?

00:35:57.000 Well, I mean, the reality is our laws allow that.

00:36:00.000 You know what I mean?

00:36:01.000 It doesn't make rational sense.

00:36:03.000 No.

00:36:03.000 But it's a decision that for people that are just like, yeah, that'd be amazing.

00:36:09.000 Let's put the wolves out there. 0.97

00:36:10.000 People are going to lose their dogs.

00:36:13.000 Sure.

00:36:14.000 Your dogs are going to get eaten.

00:36:16.000 It's going to affect anyone who has livestock.

00:36:19.000 You're going to have a problem.

00:36:20.000 Whether that problem's in three years or in five years, those problems are coming.

00:36:25.000 Yeah.

00:36:25.000 Dogs are 100% gonna get eaten.

00:36:27.000 Right.

00:36:27.000 If you have a cute golden retriever like mine, you leave them outside, like guess what?

00:36:31.000 That dog's dead.

00:36:32.000 Sure. 0.91

00:36:33.000 They're gonna team up on that dog and tear it apart. 0.99

00:36:35.000 Yeah.

00:36:35.000 And if you're cool with going outside and seeing wolves eat your dog, Well, then you've made the right choice.

00:36:41.000 But if you're not, if you don't think they're gonna go after low-hanging fruit, if you don't think they're gonna go after easy prey, you don't understand wolves.

00:36:48.000 Talk to people that live in Alaska. 0.98

00:36:49.000 Anybody who lives in British Columbia, they have real fucking wolf problems up there. 0.98

00:36:56.000 And these are wolf problems that we used to have in the West, but they eradicated them. 0.99

00:37:01.000 I mean, I don't think it's good to eradicate them. 0.98

00:37:04.000 I'm not saying that what they did was right when they poisoned horses and left dead horses filled with strychnine and the wolves all died off, but they did it for a fucking reason. 0.99

00:37:15.000 Yeah, yeah. 0.96

00:37:16.000 And that's the thing that's so crazy about, you know, back to the process of how it happened.

00:37:23.000 Everybody who wants wolves in Colorado, and we can get into the depth they want them, because that's not really clear.

00:37:32.000 They just went through this whole setting up the plan for the CPW, and it became very clear in my mind, watching that process, that they don't really want there to be any management of wolves in Colorado either.

00:37:47.000 Ever?

00:37:48.000 No, yeah.

00:37:49.000 Well, that's crazy.

00:37:50.000 Yeah, and so that, I think, anybody rational is going to be like, look, we've got to have a top to the population.

00:37:59.000 There's no management at all?

00:38:00.000 Well, so here's the deal.

00:38:03.000 They have a draft plan to manage the wolves.

00:38:08.000 What happened is when the CPW did that draft plan, it included some discussion of wolves being lethally managed at all different stages.

00:38:19.000 You know what I mean, Joe?

00:38:20.000 Even now, if they were a real problem with livestock, could they be lethally managed?

00:38:26.000 But down the road, once they had...

00:38:29.000 Once they had hit certain population objectives, could they be hunted, right?

00:38:34.000 Like that was discussed.

00:38:36.000 Well, it turns out the ballot initiative basically says that wolves are a non-game species, and that was in the language of the ballot initiative.

00:38:44.000 So...

00:38:45.000 They can't really now say, the CPW can't really say that they're going to someday be a hunted species in Colorado.

00:38:54.000 I personally think, and everything's like 20-20 hindsight, but even when the ballot initiative originally was out there, I always thought it was going to pass by a landslide.

00:39:07.000 That's what's so crazy because it just barely passed.

00:39:09.000 But, um, I always thought, like, the problem with Colorado is it's different than these other western states, you know, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, because they're gonna keep the population in line through hunting or other, you know,

00:39:25.000 other methods, but in Colorado, I don't think the politics are gonna allow that, man.

00:39:29.000 I think it's just gonna be, like, who knows what the top is on, you know, how many there is, how much they affect the ungulate population, you know, who knows, you know.

00:39:39.000 But what I was going to say is what's crazy about this ballot initiative and the bummer part about it is everybody that's going to deal with the negative consequences, they're people that voted no, but they're in the areas where the wolves are going to be transplanted.

00:39:55.000 Everybody that voted for it, they don't have to deal with the downside.

00:39:58.000 They're living in Boulder.

00:39:59.000 Yeah.

00:40:00.000 Dude, and I'm like you, man.

00:40:01.000 They're cool.

00:40:02.000 Like, I've been around them in Canada.

00:40:03.000 They're way cool.

00:40:05.000 But the...

00:40:06.000 The problem is, is every person that I've interacted with in British Columbia, you know, or even in the western states that have a fair amount of wolves, every person that's just trying to make a living on the landscape, you know, he's a guide, an outfitter, a logger,

00:40:22.000 a cattle rancher, whatever, like he's out there living, he or she's out there living with them and dealing with them.

00:40:28.000 They're all just like, when you ask about wolves, they're like, it's just like, you know what I mean?

00:40:33.000 Because they got to deal with the negative consequences all the time.

00:40:36.000 They're a totally different kind of animal than any other animal because they act as a pack.

00:40:42.000 Right.

00:40:42.000 And they have some sort of intelligent communication.

00:40:46.000 They're badass, man.

00:40:47.000 They're amazing.

00:40:48.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:40:48.000 They're cunning and crafty and they're efficient, ruthless killers. 0.98

00:40:52.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:40:52.000 And they also surplus kill. 1.00

00:40:54.000 Sure. 0.99

00:40:55.000 They find them, I think it was Wyoming recently, but they found just a fucking giant pile of elk that they... 0.98

00:41:00.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:41:01.000 Trapped in high snow and just tore to pieces.

00:41:03.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:04.000 And I don't know, like, the stats on how common that is, but, you know, other predators do that, too.

00:41:10.000 Yeah, cats do that. 1.00

00:41:11.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:12.000 But the difference between them is that they act as a group.

00:41:17.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:17.000 They're the only one of those predators that acts as a large group.

00:41:20.000 Yeah.

00:41:21.000 No, and they're effective.

00:41:24.000 I mean, even when you talk to...

00:41:27.000 I know a guy in British Columbia that's...

00:41:30.000 I mean, his whole world is focused on trapping them.

00:41:34.000 And I've sat and talked to him just about, like, the details, you know, like, boiling his snares, you know, how he goes in and puts his snares in, you know, how he goes in and checks them, like, all that matter.

00:41:44.000 Boiling his snares to leave no scent.

00:41:46.000 Yeah.

00:41:46.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:47.000 Because they just pick up on that stuff.

00:41:49.000 Yeah.

00:41:49.000 You know?

00:41:50.000 They're just so smart. 1.00

00:41:52.000 And they know that they're being fucked with, too. 1.00

00:41:55.000 Oh, yeah. 1.00

00:41:55.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1.00

00:41:56.000 Yeah, which, you know, it's funny because the first thing you said is they're a dog.

00:42:00.000 And that, I mean, you have dogs.

00:42:02.000 You know how it is?

00:42:03.000 Like, they can't figure it out.

00:42:04.000 Yeah, they know things.

00:42:06.000 Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:42:07.000 I mean, I talk to my dog.

00:42:09.000 Like, he understands certain things.

00:42:12.000 Right.

00:42:12.000 I'm like, come on, dude, let's go outside.

00:42:13.000 And he just starts going towards the door.

00:42:16.000 He knows what that means.

00:42:18.000 I don't have to say it like, want to go outside?

00:42:22.000 Do you want to go outside?

00:42:24.000 I can just say, hey, come on man, let's go outside.

00:42:26.000 He's like, oh yeah, let's go outside.

00:42:27.000 Are you hungry? 0.99

00:42:28.000 And he's like, fuck yeah, I'm hungry. 0.99

00:42:30.000 I'm like, okay, let's eat. 0.99

00:42:31.000 He knows what that means.

00:42:34.000 He knows some aspects of language.

00:42:37.000 Sure.

00:42:37.000 And, you know, what he is, is like a really tame, docile version of a wolf.

00:42:44.000 Yeah.

00:42:44.000 A wolf is like, like, have you ever been around a Belgian Malinois?

00:42:48.000 Yeah, I don't think I'm sure. 0.99

00:42:50.000 Those are the dogs that they use in war, police dogs, and they are fucking scary little meat missiles. 0.99

00:42:57.000 I gotcha. 0.99

00:42:58.000 And they look at you like this.

00:42:59.000 Yeah.

00:42:59.000 They're always thinking.

00:43:00.000 And you can't just keep one of those motherfuckers in your yard. 1.00

00:43:03.000 They're too smart. 1.00

00:43:04.000 They're working dogs.

00:43:05.000 First of all, they climb fences like a chimpanzee.

00:43:08.000 They just go right up the fence and over it.

00:43:11.000 I mean, have you ever seen videos of Belgian Malinois working?

00:43:15.000 I don't think I have, Joe.

00:43:16.000 I'm trying to put...

00:43:17.000 It's wild. 0.99

00:43:18.000 They can do shit where they leap through the air. 0.99

00:43:21.000 Like, you can't fucking believe they really can jump that high. 0.99

00:43:24.000 Right. 0.95

00:43:25.000 Like, soaring through the air.

00:43:27.000 I'm talking like 12 feet in the air.

00:43:29.000 Sure.

00:43:29.000 They run, jump off a guy's back, and then leap through the air, like...

00:43:34.000 Climb over walls that are like 10 feet tall just by running up the wall.

00:43:38.000 Yeah.

00:43:39.000 It's insane.

00:43:40.000 Pretty wild.

00:43:41.000 That's a wolf.

00:43:42.000 It's the same thing.

00:43:42.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:43:43.000 This is a Belgian novel.

00:43:45.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:43:45.000 I've seen it, man.

00:43:46.000 Look at this.

00:43:49.000 I mean, that's insane.

00:43:50.000 It is nuts.

00:43:51.000 How's that dog doing that? 1.00

00:43:53.000 Look at him running up the fucking wall. 1.00

00:43:55.000 He's basically a monkey. 1.00

00:43:57.000 Got it figured out. 1.00

00:43:58.000 Look, he's running up a fucking tree to get to a mitt, and then he's hanging on it. 1.00

00:44:02.000 It's crazy. 0.99

00:44:05.000 Man, you know, the diversity amongst dogs is wild.

00:44:08.000 It is wild.

00:44:09.000 But these dogs in particular are bred, and look how smart they are.

00:44:14.000 Look, you can walk across a tightrope.

00:44:16.000 Look at that.

00:44:17.000 Isn't that insane? 1.00

00:44:18.000 I mean, that's fucking insane. 1.00

00:44:20.000 They're so intelligent, but that's closer to a wolf. 1.00

00:44:24.000 Way closer to a wolf.

00:44:25.000 Look at his ears.

00:44:27.000 I mean, they're basically an athlete wolf.

00:44:30.000 You know?

00:44:31.000 Have you ever seen these great Pyrenees dogs that they run with the sheep?

00:44:35.000 Yes.

00:44:36.000 Well, they're cool in a much different way, but they basically think they're sheep.

00:44:41.000 Yeah.

00:44:42.000 You know?

00:44:42.000 Pull up Great Pyrenees dogs.

00:44:44.000 Yeah, they're interesting.

00:44:46.000 It's so wild that they all came from wolves and that you have so many different styles of like the way they look.

00:44:53.000 Dude, these dogs, so there's big domestic sheep permits where I used to outfit.

00:44:58.000 So guys running, you know, big bands of sheep periodically in the wilderness areas and they keep these dogs with them.

00:45:05.000 These dogs are something else to run into in the night up in the mountains or whatever.

00:45:10.000 They just protect those sheep. 1.00

00:45:13.000 You see these big bands of sheep like this.

00:45:16.000 And do they keep wolves off of them?

00:45:18.000 Yeah, so I've heard mixed things, and this will be interesting because right where they're going to put some of these wolves in Colorado, there's some pretty big domestic sheep guys that run these Pyrenees dogs.

00:45:29.000 Oh, Jesus Christ.

00:45:30.000 And they actually, so sheep in the wilderness are one of the few animals that are still guarded by humans.

00:45:38.000 You know, they usually have a herder with them. 1.00

00:45:40.000 Yeah.

00:45:40.000 And a lot of them are guys from, nowadays it seems to be that most of them are from Peru, I believe.

00:45:45.000 I used to run into the guys because they've been out there living with these sheep, man, for like weeks at a time.

00:45:51.000 So even though there's a language barrier, like when they see you up there, like they want to hang out, you know, say hi or whatever.

00:45:57.000 Just happy to see people.

00:45:58.000 Yeah, they'll have like a horse with them, you know, maybe, I don't know, probably five, six hundred sheep and they'll have a couple of those dogs.

00:46:05.000 Wow.

00:46:06.000 But back to your original question, I've heard mixed things about these dogs' ability to deal with wolves.

00:46:15.000 And it has to do with the fact that there's a group of wolves.

00:46:20.000 So if they can draw one of these dogs off, wolves can kill them.

00:46:26.000 I've heard, and I'm not an expert at it, but...

00:46:29.000 I know that some people in wolf country, what they'll do is on the Great Pyrenees, they'll put spike collars on them. 0.51

00:46:35.000 So the wolves can't get a hold of them.

00:46:38.000 Because these dogs are big.

00:46:39.000 They're a lot bigger than most wolves.

00:46:42.000 How big are these dogs?

00:46:43.000 These Great Pyrenees dogs?

00:46:45.000 What are they wearing about?

00:46:46.000 Dude, I'm thinking...

00:46:49.000 Jamie might have to look this up, but I think they're, yeah, mid-150, 160, that's what I was thinking.

00:46:54.000 I mean, that's a big dog, you know.

00:46:58.000 But I don't know how well they'll do with the wolves.

00:47:00.000 And, man, there's stories of wolves getting into these domestic sheep and killing, like, a hundred.

00:47:05.000 You know, just, you know.

00:47:08.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:47:09.000 Fuck. 1.00

00:47:10.000 Yeah, I don't know. 1.00

00:47:11.000 I don't know how that's all gonna work.

00:47:13.000 It's not gonna work well.

00:47:14.000 No.

00:47:15.000 I mean, this idea that it's always good when you reintroduce predators, like, says who?

00:47:21.000 Like...

00:47:22.000 Yeah. 0.91

00:47:22.000 The balance right now is pretty goddamn good. 0.91

00:47:24.000 Like, I don't know what they're thinking. 0.82

00:47:26.000 They just have this idea that wolves are amazing.

00:47:28.000 Well, guess what?

00:47:29.000 Wolves are eventually making their way into Colorado anyway.

00:47:33.000 Right.

00:47:33.000 I mean, it's a natural thing that's happening.

00:47:36.000 Yeah.

00:47:37.000 And...

00:47:37.000 At least the way it's happening, it'll probably be more sustainable than just dropping off a patch of them in an area that has domestic animals.

00:47:45.000 Right.

00:47:46.000 Man, I... Joe, I don't know why there's...

00:47:50.000 I mean, I do understand why there's an obsession with them.

00:47:53.000 They're beautiful and they're cool.

00:47:55.000 Oh, yeah.

00:47:55.000 But I almost feel like...

00:47:58.000 Are you familiar with the...

00:48:00.000 I believe the name of the YouTube video is Why Wolves Change Rivers?

00:48:05.000 Yeah, yeah, I've seen it.

00:48:06.000 Yeah.

00:48:06.000 But that guy, do you know the guy who made that?

00:48:09.000 He's a fan of wilding and he wants to bring lions to the UK. He's fucking insane. 1.00

00:48:18.000 There's no limit to this logic of this trophic cascade idea. 0.99

00:48:24.000 Yeah, well, what's crazy to me, man, is like, so if you watch that video, and it's got like 50 million views on YouTube or something like that, it's narrated by a guy, I mean, it's really well done.

00:48:36.000 It's just cool to watch.

00:48:38.000 But you watch it, I mean, if you listen to the first 90 seconds, And the reason I bring this video up is because I actually think that this video was the start of what happened in Colorado.

00:48:50.000 A lot of people watch this and they're like, yeah, it makes sense.

00:48:52.000 You get this predator in here.

00:48:53.000 It fixes all the problems with the range.

00:48:56.000 Balances things out.

00:48:57.000 Yeah, it brings everything back.

00:48:59.000 But in that video, man, in the first 90 seconds, there's a bald-faced lie.

00:49:05.000 They say, I don't know what it is.

00:49:06.000 Do you want to play it?

00:49:07.000 Should we play it?

00:49:08.000 Yeah, yeah, let's play it.

00:49:09.000 How Wolves Change Rivers.

00:49:11.000 Yeah.

00:49:12.000 The guy behind it is very controversial.

00:49:16.000 I mean, I think it's interesting.

00:49:17.000 I think it's interesting that he has such a passion towards these animals.

00:49:21.000 But this guy legitimately thinks that wilding and rewilding is the way to go for everything.

00:49:27.000 Let's play it.

00:49:27.000 Right.

00:49:32.000 That's how they get you.

00:49:33.000 The beautiful sound of the night.

00:49:34.000 And plus the guy's accent, you'll see, man.

00:49:36.000 It draws you in.

00:49:39.000 They're cool. 0.99

00:49:40.000 They're fucking cool. 0.95

00:49:42.000 Beautiful. 0.98

00:49:47.000 One of the most exciting scientific findings of the past half century has been the discovery of widespread trophic cascades.

00:49:56.000 A trophic cascade is an ecological process which starts at the top of the food chain and tumbles all the way down to the bottom.

00:50:05.000 And the classic example is what happened in the Yellowstone National Park in the United States when wolves were reintroduced in 1995. Now, we all know that wolves kill various species of animals, but perhaps we're slightly less aware that they give life to many others.

00:50:28.000 Before the wolves turned up, they'd been absent for 70 years.

00:50:31.000 That the numbers of deer, because there was nothing to hunt them, had built up and built up in the Yellowstone Park.

00:50:37.000 And despite efforts by humans to control them, they'd managed to reduce much...

00:50:41.000 So that's the lie right there.

00:50:44.000 Despite efforts to be controlled by humans in Yellowstone.

00:50:48.000 That is just factually incorrect, Joe.

00:50:51.000 Yeah, it's not true at all.

00:50:52.000 No, it's not true at all in Yellowstone.

00:50:54.000 So the history of Yellowstone actually, you know, until like the 60s, there's two things going on in the park when they had excess elk, which makes sense.

00:51:07.000 Because what people don't realize, I mean...

00:51:10.000 They were killing predators before the 60s in Yellowstone. 0.86

00:51:13.000 They were suppressing lions in addition to the fact that they had already killed the wolves.

00:51:18.000 So there was predator suppression going on, even in the park before the 60s.

00:51:23.000 Well, in the late 50s and 60s, and I might be roughly off on these dates, but the park was actually capturing elk, and they were transporting them to all the other states that needed elk.

00:51:37.000 I think that's where they got them in California, for Tohono Ranch.

00:51:41.000 They got them from Yellowstone.

00:51:42.000 Yeah, that might be, man, because all the big transplants in Colorado, Idaho, outside of the park, they were Yellowstone genetics.

00:51:52.000 You know, and I actually even know, I know that some of the, you know, some of the elk that ended up down on the Indian reservations and stuff, they were originally...

00:52:01.000 Can I ask you about that before we move on?

00:52:04.000 Someone, I was hunting with this guy in Utah and he was telling me there's literally two different kinds of elk and the reason why these elk like in the Gila mountain range and the elk in Tohono Ranch and They're so big is because these are Yellowstone elk and that the Yellowstone elk have wider bases,

00:52:24.000 more mass.

00:52:26.000 They're larger animals.

00:52:28.000 He was like, it's like, you know, you have a Roosevelt elk, you have a Thule elk, you have a Rocky Mountain elk.

00:52:34.000 He's like, you have a Yellowstone elk.

00:52:36.000 He's like, it's a different elk.

00:52:37.000 I don't know specifically related to Yellowstone elk, but I actually do know some people who had original Yellowstone genetic elk on their place.

00:52:55.000 It's a big high fence place owned by the natives in New Mexico.

00:53:00.000 And they actually started to bring in genetics out of Alberta.

00:53:05.000 And those elk out of Alberta are way bigger than the Yellowstone elk.

00:53:11.000 That's interesting.

00:53:12.000 So what you're saying I imagine is true, Joe.

00:53:15.000 I just don't know exactly.

00:53:17.000 But what I have seen is there's huge difference.

00:53:19.000 Man, like I saw a cow on this particular place I'm talking about.

00:53:24.000 And it was bigger than any bull I had ever had a client kill in the fight.

00:53:30.000 What?

00:53:31.000 When we were like, the cow popped up in the brush there probably like 500 yards from us and I hadn't picked up my binoculars yet, there's no way you could have convinced me that was a cow.

00:53:44.000 Because it was probably like a 750 pound cow. 1.00

00:53:48.000 What?

00:53:49.000 Yeah.

00:53:50.000 I've never even heard of such a thing.

00:53:51.000 Oh yeah.

00:53:52.000 They're physically way bigger.

00:53:56.000 But is that normal?

00:53:59.000 I mean, you're saying this is the Alberta genes?

00:54:01.000 These are Alberta genetics.

00:54:02.000 So is that that thing?

00:54:04.000 What is that?

00:54:05.000 There's a...

00:54:06.000 A thing that happens with animals when they're in cold climates, where mammals grow larger.

00:54:12.000 Yeah, I know what you're saying.

00:54:13.000 It's like the same thing between southern BC moose and Yukon moose.

00:54:17.000 The Yukon moose is way bigger.

00:54:19.000 And it's also deer, right?

00:54:21.000 You have coos deer that are little tiny suckers, and then you get all the way to Saskatchewan, they're 350 pound whitetails.

00:54:28.000 Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:54:29.000 Bergman's Rule?

00:54:30.000 Is that it?

00:54:31.000 It says it's named after.

00:54:32.000 I think that's it.

00:54:34.000 Biology established concept called Bergman's Rule states, creatures tend to be larger.

00:54:38.000 To conserve heat.

00:54:40.000 The rules name after Carl Bergman, a 19th century biologist who first described the pattern in 1847. Yeah, it totally makes sense.

00:54:46.000 Like, Texas deer are so tiny.

00:54:49.000 Oh, yeah.

00:54:49.000 It's really interesting.

00:54:50.000 Yeah, like, if you compared, like, a South Texas whitetail to, like, an Alberta whitetail.

00:54:54.000 Or an Idaho whitetail.

00:54:55.000 Yeah, oh, yeah.

00:54:56.000 Yeah, yeah, it's way different. 0.97

00:54:56.000 They're fucking giant up there. 0.97

00:54:58.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:54:58.000 Or Iowa. 0.99

00:54:59.000 Yeah, and it's not all feed-related.

00:55:02.000 Part of it is, obviously, this law that you're talking about.

00:55:06.000 That makes sense.

00:55:07.000 So, I've never even heard of a cow elk being that big.

00:55:11.000 Oh, yeah, man.

00:55:13.000 There's for sure a regional...

00:55:16.000 I mean, part of that's probably, like, genetics, you know, or, like, you know, selective breeding of elk, too, over time, which, you know, that does exist.

00:55:23.000 There's an industry that does that, so that might be part of it, too.

00:55:26.000 It could be that these animals, too, like, much like what we're talking about with California, with Tihon Ranch, you have these animals that are used to living in Montana, say, with the California Tihon Ranch, and then all of a sudden they're living in...

00:55:39.000 You know, the Tachapi Mountains, and they have no winter to speak of, where they're deprived of food.

00:55:46.000 They have food all year round now, and so they have this body that's designed to consume as much food as possible, because winter's coming, and then winter never comes.

00:55:56.000 Yeah.

00:55:57.000 So they just get giant.

00:55:58.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:59.000 Yeah, and that would make sense, too.

00:56:00.000 I mean, I was, you know, elk are funny.

00:56:03.000 Joe, and I'm sure you've heard this story.

00:56:04.000 It's like, you hear people talking about killing wild elk, like, oh, I killed a bull.

00:56:08.000 He had to weigh, like, 900 pounds.

00:56:10.000 It's like, dude, I've, I mean, I've put a ton, quartered up a ton of bulls in my life, and a big wild bull is, you know, 650 pounds, 700 pounds would be a big one, you know.

00:56:23.000 They don't get as big as a lot of people say, you know what I mean?

00:56:27.000 But if you go to Tahone Ranch...

00:56:29.000 Yeah, they probably are.

00:56:29.000 Yeah, you're probably right.

00:56:30.000 No, I've seen 1,100, 1,200 pound elk.

00:56:33.000 Yeah, so that's, you know, that's 60% bigger than the bulls that I was exposed to in Colorado.

00:56:39.000 Yeah, they're extraordinarily large.

00:56:42.000 Yeah.

00:56:43.000 But then you see a moose and you're like, oh my god.

00:56:46.000 Oh yeah.

00:56:46.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:56:47.000 I mean, the first time I saw a moose live on the hoof walking around was in BC. Yeah.

00:56:52.000 And it was like that scene in Jurassic Park.

00:56:54.000 We pulled over the truck, we were driving down the road... 0.99

00:56:56.000 We pulled over a truck and I stuck my head out the window like, what the fuck? 0.99

00:57:01.000 It was so big! 0.99

00:57:03.000 Isn't it goofy?

00:57:04.000 Because they're like, that whole depiction of them in cartoons, like Bullwinkle, it kind of fits them.

00:57:10.000 Yeah.

00:57:10.000 They're just like...

00:57:11.000 But fucking dangerous. 1.00

00:57:14.000 Oh yeah. 1.00

00:57:14.000 The thing about them that scares me more than any other, they'll come for you. 1.00

00:57:18.000 They'll go after you. 0.99

00:57:19.000 Whereas like, no other deer species like goes, oh, you want to start some shit? 1.00

00:57:24.000 They'll come over and stomp you. 1.00

00:57:25.000 Yeah.

00:57:26.000 I remember, you know, it's funny, like when you're riding in the mountains with, you know, you're riding a horse and maybe you've got like three or four mules with you, a lot of times you'll pick up off of them that they sent something before you see it, you know, because they smell something.

00:57:40.000 And usually they'll start like puffing their nostrils.

00:57:43.000 And a lot of times it would be moose.

00:57:45.000 I can hear them huffing.

00:57:48.000 Those mules and horses, what they're trying to do is they're trying to get more scent in so they can be like, they know exactly what it is.

00:57:56.000 And a lot of times as you're going around a switchback or something, you can hear them huffing and sure enough you come around the corner and there'll just be like a bull moose standing there in the trail. 0.97

00:58:05.000 Nothing give a shit. 0.97

00:58:07.000 What do you want to do? 0.99

00:58:08.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:58:09.000 You seem like you'd be kind of like a big...

00:58:16.000 Intimidating mass of people and animals.

00:58:19.000 Yeah, and they just look at you like, you're going to have to go around.

00:58:23.000 So several moose, I literally drug a string of mules up the hill, through the aspens, and crashing through a bunch of crap just so the moose can stand there on the trail.

00:58:33.000 Yeah.

00:58:35.000 I've never seen a Yukon moose on the hoof.

00:58:37.000 I would love to.

00:58:38.000 I haven't either, but you see these guys that kill them, and holy smokes, man.

00:58:42.000 I've watched some of those Jim Shockey videos.

00:58:44.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:58:45.000 He goes up there, and they have antlers that are the size of this table.

00:58:49.000 Yeah, you just see them when they glass them up, and their paddles on them are like...

00:58:52.000 It's insane.

00:58:54.000 They're so big.

00:58:55.000 It's hard to believe that they're that much bigger, but I guess that's that Bergman's rule.

00:58:59.000 Yeah, yeah, sure. 0.57

00:59:00.000 Yeah, because it's cold as fuck up there.

00:59:02.000 Yeah, and just genetics and everything else.

00:59:04.000 But moose, like, Colorado's starting to get some huge moose, man.

00:59:08.000 Are they Cyrus moose?

00:59:09.000 Yeah, there's shires, but, I mean, a 50-inch moose is not uncommon.

00:59:14.000 Really?

00:59:14.000 Oh, wow.

00:59:15.000 Yeah, in the areas that I was guiding and outfitting in.

00:59:19.000 And it was cool, you know, Joe, because early on when I started, we rarely saw a moose, man.

00:59:24.000 Like, almost never.

00:59:24.000 Like, if you saw a cow moose, that was, like, major day, you know.

00:59:28.000 By the time, you know, 10 years later, we always saw moose, and big ones, you know.

00:59:34.000 Do you know Adam Greentree?

00:59:36.000 I don't know him personally.

00:59:37.000 I know of him.

00:59:38.000 Adam filmed a grizzly bear in the San Juans.

00:59:42.000 Yeah, which is possible, man.

00:59:45.000 Do you know the history of the last grizzly bear that they saw on there?

00:59:49.000 No.

00:59:50.000 Oh, man.

00:59:51.000 I don't want to get the dates and stuff messed up, but it was weird.

00:59:56.000 To tie on to your story, they said they were extinct.

01:00:01.000 They weren't around.

01:00:02.000 And then a bow hunter went in there, I want to say like 15 years after they said they were extinct.

01:00:08.000 And he went in there and he got mauled by one.

01:00:11.000 And he came out and he's like, look, I just killed a grizzly bear.

01:00:16.000 I mean, I'm telling you I did.

01:00:18.000 And they said, no, no way you didn't.

01:00:20.000 And they went back in there with him and sure enough, he had.

01:00:23.000 You'd have to look up the exact story because I'm sure I kind of butchered it.

01:00:27.000 Here it is.

01:00:27.000 In 1979, Ed Wiseman, a Colorado hunting guide, crossed paths the Grizzly Bear during an expedition near the headwaters of the Navajo River.

01:00:37.000 Wiseman was attacked and mauled.

01:00:41.000 What happened?

01:00:42.000 Uh, but while he was down, he managed to fa- Oh my god. 0.99

01:00:45.000 The fuck is it? 0.99

01:00:46.000 Is this like- What is up with his website? 0.99

01:00:48.000 He's loading a picture and it's changing my mind.

01:00:50.000 Oh, I see. 0.99

01:00:50.000 It's just a shitty website. 0.99

01:00:52.000 Um, but while he was down, he managed to fatally wound the bear by hand using an arrow! 0.99

01:01:00.000 Wild. 1.00

01:01:01.000 A fucking arrow! 1.00

01:01:03.000 But look, man, so they said they'd been extinct for like 20 or 30 years already. 1.00

01:01:08.000 How the fuck do they know? 0.99

01:01:09.000 Here's the thing. 1.00

01:01:10.000 That kind of talk is so wild. 0.99

01:01:13.000 Are you out there with cameras in every fucking acre of that land? 1.00

01:01:18.000 Shut up. 1.00

01:01:19.000 You don't know. 0.99

01:01:20.000 You should really take the word of the people that find these things out there because those people are actually there.

01:01:26.000 How deep do the biologists go?

01:01:28.000 How often are they there?

01:01:29.000 How many boots on the ground wildlife surveyors do you have that are telling you exactly how many bears there are?

01:01:38.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:01:38.000 How could you know?

01:01:39.000 Yeah, who knows? 0.86

01:01:40.000 So cocky.

01:01:41.000 And like on Adam's deal in the San Juans, I don't know.

01:01:45.000 He filmed it.

01:01:46.000 Yeah.

01:01:47.000 And I've seen the videos and, you know, personally, I don't know that I could say 100% either way, but I do know that people for sure who have seen them in northern Colorado, like across the border, seen tracks, something like that.

01:02:01.000 Of course.

01:02:01.000 I mean, the neighboring states.

01:02:04.000 They move around.

01:02:04.000 They're next to Wyoming.

01:02:06.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:02:06.000 Wyoming has them.

01:02:08.000 Yeah, they move around.

01:02:08.000 The idea that a grizzly's not going to move from Wyoming to Colorado, he knows this is not his turf.

01:02:13.000 Yeah.

01:02:14.000 Well, dude, the thing about them is they can, people don't understand, they can roam.

01:02:17.000 There's something that gets in, you know, bears' heads where they will, well, not just bears, like, I mean, Cats.

01:02:25.000 Yeah, cats, a little bighorn ram who he's just tired of getting the shit beat out of him from this band of rams he's been hanging out.

01:02:31.000 All of a sudden he just starts moving, man.

01:02:34.000 He's just gonna go find like a new place to live and they'll travel like crazy distances.

01:02:39.000 There's a cool bear study, and man I wish I knew the gal's name that did it, where they collared a bunch of bears and it was done I believe in New Mexico.

01:02:50.000 And it's crazy to see how far these bears will move.

01:02:54.000 They'll go where they're denning, and they'll travel, I want to say like two, three hundred miles, hit up an elk calving ground, and then they'll go another hundred miles for somewhere else that they like to hang out in the fall to hit acorns or something.

01:03:11.000 So this bear's doing an insane trip.

01:03:13.000 Wow.

01:03:14.000 It's wild.

01:03:15.000 So yeah, it's for sure possible.

01:03:17.000 Of course.

01:03:18.000 And it's likely.

01:03:19.000 I mean, I trust Adam.

01:03:21.000 He's just so knowledgeable.

01:03:23.000 Yeah, I got you.

01:03:24.000 He would just say, oh my god, look at that black bear. 0.99

01:03:28.000 He would say it was a giant black bear, but he's like, that's a fucking grizzly bear. 0.98

01:03:32.000 He was filming it through his... 0.99

01:03:35.000 And he's got his gun out and the whole deal, right?

01:03:39.000 Oh, that's a different one.

01:03:40.000 That's a different one.

01:03:41.000 This is one that he filmed.

01:03:43.000 Okay, so look at the size of that.

01:03:45.000 Just look at what it looks like.

01:03:47.000 Sure.

01:03:49.000 So this is, I believe he's got film footage.

01:03:54.000 No, it's okay.

01:03:56.000 But just even those photos, that looks exactly like a brown bear.

01:04:02.000 I mean, that doesn't look like a black bear to me.

01:04:04.000 Yeah, they get that blonde kind of shine to them. 1.00

01:04:08.000 Yeah, that looks like a fucking brown bear, man. 0.99

01:04:10.000 I mean, look, it could be a massive color-faced bear. 1.00

01:04:14.000 Right.

01:04:14.000 It could be.

01:04:15.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:04:16.000 But the odds are not that good.

01:04:17.000 Yeah, when they get that, I can't remember the term that people use for it, but they get that golden kind of like blondness at the end of the hair.

01:04:26.000 And I've seen it.

01:04:27.000 You know, we used to have a bunch of black bears in my area that have like mohawks.

01:04:30.000 You ever seen like red mohawk?

01:04:32.000 Yeah.

01:04:33.000 Okay, this is 100% a grizzly bear.

01:04:37.000 But I believe this was in Idaho?

01:04:41.000 Is that where it was?

01:04:42.000 Or Montana?

01:04:43.000 He started in Colorado.

01:04:44.000 He's now in Montana.

01:04:46.000 That was because he was hunting for 28 days straight solo.

01:04:51.000 But he actually drove to Montana.

01:04:53.000 And then he had an encounter with a female.

01:04:56.000 By the way, he lives in... 1.00

01:05:00.000 Australia, where pistols are, you know, you can't even get a fucking pistol. 1.00

01:05:04.000 Oh, okay. 0.99

01:05:05.000 So someone gave him a pistol to borrow while he was out there.

01:05:08.000 What he didn't know is that the rounds were the wrong round for the pistol he had.

01:05:14.000 So his gun was not going to work.

01:05:19.000 So here he is pointing this gun at this grizzly bear. 0.99

01:05:23.000 And if you see the video, it's fucking crazy. 0.98

01:05:25.000 The bear runs up on him. 0.98

01:05:27.000 Here it is.

01:05:27.000 Thinks he's got a chance.

01:05:28.000 Let's give it some volume.

01:05:31.000 I had no mind in life either, so...

01:05:34.000 So I drew my handgun.

01:05:35.000 It's something that you carry, especially when you're by yourself. 1.00

01:05:38.000 How about a handgun that works, bitch? 1.00

01:05:39.000 You live in a shitty country. 1.00

01:05:41.000 It'll teach you about guns over there. 0.99

01:05:43.000 Luckily for me, she turned off at about 20 yards, so it was just like a bluff charge.

01:05:47.000 I stayed dead still just with the pistol drawn.

01:05:51.000 See, look at this gun.

01:05:52.000 See it?

01:05:56.000 It's jammed.

01:05:57.000 Look how the front is sticking out.

01:05:59.000 Like the slide.

01:06:01.000 Yeah, so look at the slide, the entrance on the right-hand side. 0.99

01:06:03.000 That gun is not doing jack shit. 0.98

01:06:05.000 Yeah. 0.98

01:06:06.000 Which is really funny because he doesn't even know.

01:06:08.000 He had false hope.

01:06:10.000 He's a bow hunter.

01:06:10.000 That is kind of funny.

01:06:11.000 It's funny that he's pointing a magic wand at a grizzly bear.

01:06:14.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:06:15.000 Be gone!

01:06:16.000 Well, the thing is, man, it's not like...

01:06:20.000 I mean, I've been around grizzlies a fair amount.

01:06:23.000 I've never had a threatening type of interaction with them.

01:06:27.000 But I've actually had like a few little things with black bears.

01:06:31.000 And every time I guided a black bear hunt, Joe, and like I walked up to a black bear, you know, with a hunter, it's not like they're not scary.

01:06:39.000 You know, you look at their claws and you're like, well, man, dude, it's like... 0.98

01:06:43.000 Oh, they're fucking scary. 0.95

01:06:44.000 Isn't it also true that more black bears attack people to try to eat them? 1.00

01:06:50.000 Than grizzlies?

01:06:51.000 I think that's like when black bears attack you in general, it's like a predatory thing.

01:06:57.000 Whereas grizzlies get surprised.

01:06:59.000 And there's these scary black bear encounters or black bear things you hear about where the bears are habituated to like campgrounds and stuff and they attack people in their tents.

01:07:09.000 That is scary.

01:07:10.000 I was listening to somebody talk about it recently.

01:07:13.000 I can't remember who it was, but there's something about when you get attacked in a tent and they think that in general, if it's grizzly or black bear, that is more of like a predatory, I'm going to eat you type of thing.

01:07:26.000 Maybe because it's at night.

01:07:28.000 You know what I mean?

01:07:28.000 Like they do some of their hunting at night.

01:07:30.000 Also, I think it's like a burrito.

01:07:34.000 Yeah.

01:07:35.000 You're like going to tear it open?

01:07:37.000 Yeah.

01:07:38.000 It's a wrap, you know?

01:07:40.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:07:40.000 It's crazy.

01:07:41.000 It's like, how is this stupid animal stuck inside this cloth bag? 1.00

01:07:46.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:07:46.000 Perfect for me to just tear through and eat it. 1.00

01:07:49.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:07:49.000 Because for them, the smell must be amazing.

01:07:51.000 It must be like bacon with an open window.

01:07:56.000 That's what a camper smells like, too?

01:07:58.000 Yeah, it smells like bacon.

01:07:59.000 It probably smelled fantastic.

01:08:00.000 Yeah.

01:08:01.000 I do know that it seems to me that most of the attacks from black bears have been bears that are habituated.

01:08:10.000 That makes sense.

01:08:12.000 They're used to people.

01:08:12.000 One of the ones that was recently, there was a Montana woman who was mauled who was killed in her tent.

01:08:19.000 She was on a bike trip and she was making her way and she had actually chased this bear off earlier.

01:08:26.000 And then she decided, well, he's gone.

01:08:27.000 And she went to bed and he's like, no, I'm not.

01:08:29.000 He showed back up.

01:08:30.000 And then he came and ate her.

01:08:32.000 Yeah, it's scary.

01:08:33.000 Yeah.

01:08:34.000 I mean, I've had them, you know, they, uh, have you ever, have you ever been around black bears when they're, when they're, they kind of, we call it jacking their jaws, but they jack their jaws.

01:08:41.000 It's a real, it's got, you, you can, you know, even if you never heard it before, if you hear it, you know exactly what they mean.

01:08:47.000 Yeah.

01:08:47.000 I mean, like, you need to get, get out of here.

01:08:49.000 What's weird is their sound. 0.54

01:08:51.000 They sound like a monkey. 0.74

01:08:52.000 They sound like an ape. 0.79

01:08:53.000 Yeah.

01:08:54.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:56.000 When they do that, it's like, wow, that's weird.

01:08:58.000 Yeah.

01:08:59.000 Dude, one...

01:09:00.000 I gotta tell you.

01:09:02.000 You know they do that?

01:09:03.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:03.000 It's very strange.

01:09:04.000 It's wild.

01:09:05.000 You know, it's funny because they also make...

01:09:08.000 I mean, a sow will talk to their cubs quite a bit, too.

01:09:13.000 Have you ever heard that?

01:09:14.000 It's kind of like, I don't know what to say.

01:09:16.000 It's almost like a little mewing sound.

01:09:18.000 I mean, I call it a mew like an elk mew, but it's kind of that same tonal structure, but it sounds a little bit different.

01:09:25.000 And I hadn't heard it before, but, you know, I'll tell you this story real quick, Joe.

01:09:29.000 Kind of a wild deal.

01:09:31.000 I was guiding a hunter, and we were watching these bears, and they were in oak brush.

01:09:35.000 They were basically stripping acorns off this oak brush.

01:09:39.000 And a lot of times, what these black bears will do, the sows will kick their cubs up in the oak.

01:09:46.000 Like, this oak brush could be as high as this room, man.

01:09:49.000 And what will happen is they'll kick their cubs up in the oak brush, and when you're glassing the oak brush, You'll be looking in the oak brush and you'll just see the little furry cub and he'll be just hanging in the tree, you know?

01:10:01.000 And then you don't see the sow because the canopy of the oak brush is covering her, you know?

01:10:08.000 So a lot of times when I was guiding bear hunters, I always would look for that, you know, because you can't, you know, you, you know, obviously just from like, nobody wants to kill the mom of two little baby cubs, but it's also illegal to do that, you know?

01:10:21.000 So you're always looking.

01:10:22.000 You don't want to make a mistake.

01:10:24.000 So I would always be glassing the oak brush for cubs.

01:10:26.000 And so we were watching this hillside, and I saw a couple cubs, and then I could see their mom kind of cruising underneath them.

01:10:34.000 You know, every once in a while she'd pop out.

01:10:36.000 And then, so we were kind of paying attention.

01:10:38.000 We were just, they're cool to watch.

01:10:39.000 We were watching them.

01:10:40.000 And then a boar black bear came up the hill right in front of us.

01:10:44.000 It was probably like 200-yard difference or something.

01:10:47.000 And we watched him and the hunter wanted to shoot him but we didn't have a clear shot so we just kind of kept watching him and the bears kind of started mingling together and it was getting maybe the last like 30-40 minutes of light and finally this bear got out and I actually remember because he was he got a hold of like something that had been dead forever like and it was in the ground like an old winter kill or something this this bored black bear and he was just trying to tear it up you know and he's digging on it but that gave the hunter the shot And so he shot the bear and I saw

01:11:17.000 the bear start rolling down this canyon.

01:11:20.000 And so I was like, all right, you're good to go.

01:11:22.000 He goes down and he lands on a tree, like, you know, off to his left a little bit, just kind of came down the topography of the mountain.

01:11:28.000 I'm like, you're good, but we should get over there while we got light just to maneuver around the canyon.

01:11:33.000 So I get over there, and we get above the bear, and it's pretty steep, and I'm looking down, and I see him against the tree, and then I hear a cub up in the tree, up in the canopy, and I'm like, what is going on?

01:11:48.000 I know for a fact that that's not...

01:11:51.000 A sow.

01:11:52.000 Yeah, no that's not a sow. 1.00

01:11:55.000 But it made my heart bump like, oh shit, did we make some sort of horrible mistake? 1.00

01:12:00.000 So I trot down there and I remember grabbing this bear's back leg and I pick his leg up and I see his balls and I'm like, fuck yeah. 1.00

01:12:08.000 You know what I mean? 0.99

01:12:08.000 Like, you know, because you don't want to make, like, I'd feel shitty, you know, I'd feel horrible. 0.99

01:12:14.000 So I'm like, dude, okay, that cub that's up in those trees is not, you know, this isn't the mom, so good deal.

01:12:21.000 But I'm thinking to myself, like, where's this cub?

01:12:23.000 So I look, Joe, in the same tree that this bear rolled down into, that cub was in it.

01:12:29.000 He was in the same tree that this- Just randomly.

01:12:32.000 Yeah, randomly, man.

01:12:34.000 So the sow was around there somewhere.

01:12:35.000 Yeah, dude.

01:12:36.000 So that's the problem.

01:12:37.000 Like, immediately when I realized this, I start hearing that just jaws.

01:12:42.000 Oh, yeah.

01:12:43.000 So she's nearby.

01:12:43.000 And she's really vocal.

01:12:45.000 And she's trying to call to the cub.

01:12:47.000 You know what I mean?

01:12:48.000 So what do you do?

01:12:48.000 Do you back out?

01:12:49.000 So I'm thinking, we have to, right?

01:12:51.000 Yeah.

01:12:51.000 So we got to just back up.

01:12:53.000 So we back up the hill and we just watch.

01:12:57.000 It's like, well, this is the deal.

01:12:59.000 And it was crazy, Joe.

01:13:01.000 Literally, it's felt like forever, but it couldn't have been more than 30 or 40 minutes because it's getting dark.

01:13:07.000 But this cub would come down.

01:13:08.000 He'd come down the tree.

01:13:10.000 I'd watch him get down halfway.

01:13:12.000 And then he'd look down.

01:13:13.000 He'd see the boar.

01:13:14.000 And then he'd go back up.

01:13:15.000 You know, I was like, oh, this is going to last forever.

01:13:18.000 And finally, man, I wish I had the foresight to video it, but he just kept working down as his mom was calling to him.

01:13:25.000 And then right at the end before he came out, he was like maybe three feet above the dead bear at the base of the tree.

01:13:33.000 And he jumped out of the tree and he landed on the dead boar bear.

01:13:38.000 And he kind of just like looked around and then he ran off to his mom like, oh.

01:13:41.000 Awesome.

01:13:42.000 That's awesome.

01:13:43.000 But those kind of situations, man, anytime I got between, you know, near cubs or like where the sow didn't have visual to the cubs, that would freak me out regardless if it was grizz or black bear, you know. 0.99

01:13:55.000 Yeah, mama bears don't fuck around. 1.00

01:13:57.000 Yeah, they don't. 1.00

01:13:59.000 You know, they call mama humans mama bears. 0.94

01:14:01.000 Yeah, dude.

01:14:01.000 Well, it could be like an 80-pound black bear, Sal, and you're still like, man, dude, I don't want any of that, you know?

01:14:09.000 No, yeah.

01:14:10.000 My God, an 80-pound dog coming after you.

01:14:12.000 Can you imagine that?

01:14:13.000 And that's way scarier than a dog.

01:14:16.000 It's funny these black bears we think of as being sort of innocuous.

01:14:19.000 Like, what are you talking about?

01:14:20.000 There's a 300 pound wild predator.

01:14:22.000 Yeah.

01:14:23.000 Well, dude, and you pick up their paws and it's like, you get slapped with it.

01:14:26.000 It's going to be bad.

01:14:27.000 Oh, yeah.

01:14:27.000 Yeah, it's not good.

01:14:29.000 You're not doing well.

01:14:30.000 Yeah.

01:14:30.000 Do you still hunt them?

01:14:31.000 Yeah.

01:14:32.000 Yeah, I haven't in years, but I used to go up with my friends John and Jen up in Alberta.

01:14:38.000 Oh, okay, sure.

01:14:39.000 Cam goes up there every year.

01:14:40.000 Yeah.

01:14:42.000 Cam Haynes.

01:14:44.000 They have a very bear-rich environment up there. 0.99

01:14:47.000 Oh, yeah.

01:14:47.000 By the way, up there, you get wolf tags over the counter.

01:14:50.000 Yeah.

01:14:50.000 I mean, that's much of a wolf problem they have there.

01:14:53.000 Yeah.

01:14:54.000 You go to the gas station to buy a bear tag, you pick up a wolf tag.

01:14:58.000 Yeah.

01:14:58.000 I think it's like $40.

01:14:59.000 Sure.

01:15:01.000 Yeah, and you probably haven't met a whole bunch of Canadians up there that are huge, huge wolf fans.

01:15:07.000 None.

01:15:07.000 Yeah.

01:15:07.000 They don't like them at all.

01:15:09.000 I know, man.

01:15:09.000 It's so interesting, right?

01:15:11.000 Go to Boulder and talk to people about wolves.

01:15:13.000 Like, wolves are amazing.

01:15:15.000 That's my spirit animal.

01:15:16.000 Yeah.

01:15:17.000 Well, there's just a difference between people who have to deal with the negative consequences.

01:15:22.000 And I'm like you, man.

01:15:23.000 I don't want them to be eradicated off the earth.

01:15:27.000 But I do realize that they have negative consequences for some folks.

01:15:33.000 I mean, you have to look at it, man, and it's like, well, everybody, you know, you've got all these people who have to deal with the problems.

01:15:40.000 They don't, you know, other people are voting in for them to basically have to deal with them day to day.

01:15:46.000 Exactly.

01:15:47.000 It's like someone saying defund the police in a city they don't live in.

01:15:50.000 Yeah, exactly, man.

01:15:52.000 Yeah.

01:15:52.000 It's like, yeah, defund the police.

01:15:54.000 Yeah.

01:15:55.000 Yeah.

01:15:55.000 And it's like, I don't know why people get value out of that.

01:16:00.000 It's an enigma to me, man.

01:16:02.000 Well, you know, the beautiful thing about this country is that everyone can vote.

01:16:06.000 The horrible thing about this country is that everyone can vote.

01:16:08.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:16:09.000 That's right, dude.

01:16:10.000 Exactly.

01:16:11.000 Part of the same thing.

01:16:12.000 But it's a fellow like you.

01:16:14.000 You understand what, you know, you understand the ecosystem.

01:16:18.000 You understand these animals and you spent so much time with them.

01:16:21.000 It's like those are the people that really should be making that assessment.

01:16:25.000 It's like if you want to vote on certain things and you do not have an understanding of that thing that you're voting on, you really shouldn't vote on it.

01:16:33.000 It's like, you know, it's like you can't If you don't have an educated perspective on it, then this is crazy.

01:16:43.000 Just allowing people to just guess whether or not it'd be good to bring back wolves. 0.97

01:16:48.000 And of course these pro-animal rights groups that want these animals, and look, they love these fucking animals, and I get it, and it's not that they're bad people. 0.96

01:16:58.000 It's just they're also misguided because people who love these animals aren't hunting them. 0.98

01:17:03.000 They're not out there.

01:17:04.000 You're not entrenched in the day-to-day existence of what it means to be a wild animal.

01:17:11.000 What it means to be a predator and a prey, what it means to be an undulate, what it means to be a cat. 0.99

01:17:15.000 If you've never locked eyes to eyes with a mountain lion in the wild, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. 0.99

01:17:21.000 There's all these like... 0.99

01:17:23.000 Weird things that you're picking up off of Instagram videos.

01:17:27.000 You know, like you have your virtue signaling.

01:17:29.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:17:30.000 And I caught your episode you did with...

01:17:32.000 It's Derek Wolf, right?

01:17:34.000 Yes.

01:17:35.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:17:35.000 That line was huge, man.

01:17:37.000 Fucking huge! 0.99

01:17:38.000 Dude, would they say it weighed? 1.00

01:17:39.000 170 plus pounds dressed.

01:17:41.000 You know, if it weren't for the fact that I don't know the guy that he was with, I don't know him personally, but we're acquainted.

01:17:51.000 He worked in a different part of Colorado, and he has a very good reputation. 0.96

01:17:55.000 If it weren't for the fact that I knew that he was with him, I would say that that's bullshit, because I never heard of a lion being 180 pounds. 0.83

01:18:04.000 Yeah, his buddy Alex, who was his guide. 0.91

01:18:07.000 I'm sorry, what did I say?

01:18:08.000 You didn't say your name.

01:18:09.000 Oh, okay, yeah, I'm sorry.

01:18:10.000 He just said the guide.

01:18:11.000 He was here, too.

01:18:12.000 He was hanging out with him when he was in town.

01:18:13.000 Oh, okay, you met him, yeah.

01:18:14.000 He's very well-respected.

01:18:16.000 Some of my guides worked for him and stuff.

01:18:18.000 He's on the cover of Bowhunting Magazine now.

01:18:20.000 Pull up the photo.

01:18:22.000 It's Derek Wolf's Instagram. 0.99

01:18:24.000 He's such a fucking good guy. 0.99

01:18:26.000 But a 180-pound Lion Man, that's huge. 0.99

01:18:30.000 Yeah, well, he said it was 200 pounds.

01:18:32.000 He said if you take away the guts and the blood.

01:18:34.000 Oh, that's right.

01:18:35.000 So it's 170 plus.

01:18:37.000 Look at this. 0.99

01:18:38.000 Now, if you don't know how big Derek is, when you're in front of Derek, Derek's a goddamn Viking. 0.99

01:18:43.000 He's a Viking. 0.98

01:18:44.000 I mean, it's like 100% Viking genes.

01:18:47.000 He's enormous.

01:18:48.000 Big guy.

01:18:48.000 Enormous, not big.

01:18:51.000 So if you put me holding up that cat, it would be fucking crazy. 0.96

01:18:54.000 The cat's bigger than me, for sure. 0.94

01:18:57.000 It basically weighed what I weigh.

01:19:00.000 I weigh 200 pounds. 1.00

01:19:01.000 So imagine a fucking mountain lion that's 200 pounds. 1.00

01:19:05.000 I saw one. 1.00

01:19:08.000 In Utah.

01:19:10.000 A big one.

01:19:11.000 Yeah.

01:19:11.000 Under a tree.

01:19:12.000 But it was, you know, I mean, I guessed, like, someone's like, how big?

01:19:16.000 I was like, it looked like a 170 pound cat.

01:19:18.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:19:18.000 Fucking huge. 0.99

01:19:19.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:19:19.000 It was really big. 0.99

01:19:21.000 It was me and my friend Colton, we were driving, and as we were driving, he stopped, it was like at dusk.

01:19:28.000 Yeah.

01:19:29.000 He stops the truck, he goes, look under that tree. 1.00

01:19:31.000 It's a fucking cat. 0.99

01:19:32.000 And I look, and I catch the eyes glowing from the low light. 1.00

01:19:37.000 You know, you see the light?

01:19:38.000 And then I put my binos on him, so I'm inside.

01:19:40.000 We're 30 yards away from this cat.

01:19:41.000 I put the bino on him. 1.00

01:19:43.000 I just see this big pumpkin head, and this fucking demon cat eyes. 0.99

01:19:47.000 I'm like, oh my god, he's so big! 1.00

01:19:49.000 His forearms were just jacked!

01:19:52.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:19:53.000 They were so big!

01:19:54.000 It's funny you say the forearm thing.

01:19:56.000 I've skinned a ton of lions.

01:19:58.000 And every time I skin one, Joe, when you look at their forearm on a lion, it's not like any other...

01:20:04.000 It's like an arm wrestler.

01:20:05.000 Yeah, dude.

01:20:05.000 It's crazy.

01:20:06.000 Like, you know how a deer or an elk, if you just go with your knife and you just get through the hide, like circle the joint, you know, maybe you nick the tendons a little bit.

01:20:15.000 You know, most guys, if they hit it right, they can just snap it, right?

01:20:18.000 No way with a lion, man.

01:20:20.000 No way.

01:20:20.000 Because the tendons and just the structure right here is just totally different.

01:20:25.000 Do you know that one lion that was living in California in the Hollywood Hills?

01:20:30.000 Have you ever seen that photo?

01:20:32.000 We have that photo.

01:20:33.000 See the forearm, man?

01:20:35.000 Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:20:36.000 We have that photo, that exact photo.

01:20:39.000 We have a giant version of it outside of the studio.

01:20:42.000 Look at the collar on it.

01:20:44.000 It's so crazy.

01:20:45.000 That's an awesome photo, but it shows that forearm thing, dude.

01:20:49.000 Massive!

01:20:49.000 And they have a dewclaw.

01:20:51.000 They got a dewclaw down low, you know, like a floating dewclaw.

01:20:54.000 Just something to crab onto when they're wrestling.

01:20:57.000 Well, you know what they do with it?

01:20:58.000 Because I've seen them swatting at dogs with it.

01:21:00.000 And what they want to do...

01:21:01.000 Because I used to watch them, and I'm like, what are they doing?

01:21:04.000 And so what I realized is that they're trying to hook.

01:21:07.000 Like, they want to reach out and hook the dog with that and bring the dog to their mouth.

01:21:12.000 Because they want the dog in their mouth, you know?

01:21:14.000 That's how they get a hold of... 0.99

01:21:16.000 What I've noticed about them, just my observation, so I might be talking out of my ass a little bit, but it sure seems like if they can do it, They want to hold stuff with their mouth, and they're using their hands to bring it, you know, to bring it to their mouth. 0.97

01:21:30.000 That picture to me, can you put that picture up again? 0.98

01:21:32.000 That picture to me, I love that picture.

01:21:36.000 And one of the reasons why, first of all, it looks like it's staged, but it's just a camera trap.

01:21:42.000 That's way cool.

01:21:43.000 And the fact that it's wearing a collar, and the fact that it's with the Hollywood sign in the background, so this thing is in the middle of An incredibly dense, heavily populated area.

01:21:58.000 And it's just murdering dogs. 1.00

01:22:00.000 Oh, yeah.

01:22:01.000 Murdering dogs.

01:22:03.000 I mean, you know how many dogs go missing in that area? 1.00

01:22:06.000 A fuckload. 0.88

01:22:08.000 There's no deer. 1.00

01:22:09.000 You can't find a goddamn deer up there. 0.99

01:22:11.000 Good luck. 1.00

01:22:11.000 Sure. 1.00

01:22:11.000 You very rarely see deer in the Hollywood Hills, and that's why. 1.00

01:22:15.000 Because you have a monster.

01:22:17.000 You have a 150 pound monster just cruising around with Jack Popeye forearms.

01:22:21.000 Yeah. 0.58

01:22:23.000 Lions are crazy, man.

01:22:25.000 The craziest thing about them to me is that if you're not actively hunting them, you don't realize how many are around.

01:22:33.000 In all my years of guiding men, I think I've glassed up maybe three or four, and then all my other experience with them is hunting them.

01:22:42.000 But I can only imagine like the dozens and dozens that have just been sitting up on a rock or something as I cruise by and I never knew about it.

01:22:52.000 They're stealthy.

01:22:53.000 Yeah.

01:22:53.000 I saw one in Montecito in Santa Barbara.

01:22:57.000 I was driving. 1.00

01:22:58.000 Oh, that one on someone's lawn or someone's fucking porch. 0.99

01:23:03.000 That's in Los Feliz? 0.99

01:23:04.000 Yeah.

01:23:04.000 Oh my god, really?

01:23:06.000 They think it was that one.

01:23:06.000 They're not sure.

01:23:07.000 Well, that cat was sick by the end of its life.

01:23:10.000 They think it had gotten hit by a car.

01:23:13.000 And I think they euthanized it.

01:23:15.000 That looks terrible.

01:23:16.000 It looks smaller than that.

01:23:18.000 It does.

01:23:18.000 But it might be starving.

01:23:20.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:23:20.000 Not the same day.

01:23:21.000 I think P-22 or whatever it was.

01:23:24.000 Yeah, it's P-22 as they call him.

01:23:25.000 I think when he died, he was very ill.

01:23:29.000 I think they wound up euthanizing him.

01:23:30.000 I'm pretty sure he got hit by a car.

01:23:33.000 Something happened that really fucked him up and kept him from being able to hunt, which is probably why he's sitting on people's porches. 0.91

01:23:40.000 Just hoping they have a poodle he can eat. 0.93

01:23:42.000 Figure out something easy.

01:23:44.000 Dude, they're cool, man. 1.00

01:23:47.000 I've personally killed a couple of them. 0.98

01:23:50.000 It's funny, Joe. 0.99

01:23:51.000 I love hunting them, man.

01:23:53.000 They're really fun to hunt.

01:23:55.000 I don't have the urge to ever kill another one, but I would love to continue to go with gold people. 1.00

01:24:00.000 What do they taste like?

01:24:02.000 Derek said they tasted delicious.

01:24:04.000 Yeah, they're good.

01:24:04.000 They're like lean pork, and they look like lean pork.

01:24:09.000 That's how I would describe it.

01:24:10.000 I bet you if I fed it to you, you'd think this is like lean pork that maybe tastes like a little overcooked or something.

01:24:18.000 Rinella said it's better than pork.

01:24:21.000 He likes it.

01:24:22.000 He sent me a photo of some stuff that he cooked.

01:24:25.000 I said, how was it?

01:24:26.000 He goes, it was superb.

01:24:28.000 That's what he said.

01:24:28.000 I said, really?

01:24:29.000 He goes, it was amazing.

01:24:33.000 The meat, man, I'll show it to you because it looks like pork, too, man.

01:24:41.000 No, I've definitely seen it online.

01:24:44.000 I never had a chance to try it, though, in person.

01:24:47.000 I've got to take a leak, man.

01:24:48.000 Let's pause for a bit.

01:24:49.000 We'll come back.

01:24:50.000 This is new, hydrated Joe, has a real problem.

01:24:53.000 I used to be able to go three hours.

01:24:54.000 We had a half an hour longer than the other days.

01:24:57.000 Yeah, the other day it was bad.

01:24:58.000 But I've been really amping up my hydration.

01:25:03.000 I got blood work, I found, when I was dehydrated, and now I've been drinking water all day. 0.99

01:25:07.000 But it's a fucking problem. 0.99

01:25:09.000 Before I go on stage, I have to make sure I pee before I go on stage. 0.99

01:25:12.000 Because I'm on stage for an hour.

01:25:14.000 I can't have to piss while I'm doing stand-up.

01:25:16.000 Alright, let's pause for a bit.

01:25:17.000 Let's talk about it.

01:25:20.000 So while we were peeing, Jamie was Googling the new chat GPT, which just got released.

01:25:26.000 Is it 4.0?

01:25:27.000 Is that what it is?

01:25:28.000 Yeah, I guess.

01:25:29.000 Yeah, because they were on 3.5 would be the highest I think it was.

01:25:32.000 And is everybody freaking out?

01:25:33.000 Is it scary?

01:25:35.000 Well, they're showing, and I can't, I mean, let me see if this, if I can skip ahead to something.

01:25:40.000 Literally right now they're doing the demonstration of it live for everybody to see.

01:25:44.000 They've just showed some of the, like, I'll show you the test scores.

01:25:48.000 On their website, right after they announced this this afternoon, they showed some exam scores they put it up against, against like GPT 3.5.

01:25:56.000 Down here it's like passing AP Calculus, which I guess the blue would have been GPT-3.

01:26:02.000 Green is the new one.

01:26:05.000 Some of the ones that have passed, I think those were not as good, but it did pass like the bar exam, I believe.

01:26:11.000 At a very high rate.

01:26:13.000 It's translating stuff into different languages now at a very high rate.

01:26:18.000 The thing I thought was crazy is it understands memes, so it can read this picture.

01:26:23.000 It's breaking down that it's in three panels.

01:26:25.000 It tells you what's in each panel and then what the humor is about that.

01:26:29.000 Wow.

01:26:30.000 That's scary.

01:26:30.000 And there's different examples of that.

01:26:32.000 I don't know exactly what else.

01:26:33.000 Scroll back up.

01:26:34.000 Scroll back up.

01:26:35.000 It says, the humor from this image comes from the absurdity of plugging a large, outdated VGA connector into a small, modern smartphone charging port.

01:26:44.000 Oh, okay.

01:26:45.000 I mean, not that it's funny on its own, but it can understand that.

01:26:50.000 Interesting.

01:26:51.000 And then I'm waiting to find out some of this other stuff that is in it.

01:26:55.000 And this is one day, right?

01:26:57.000 It's just one day of ChatGP.

01:26:58.000 I even saw already there's like a robocall company that's going to make it so that if you get a call from like a scammer, you hit a button on your phone, and I'm not even sure where you hit it, it instantly creates a thousand word lawsuit to go against them.

01:27:13.000 Using what they just called you with.

01:27:15.000 Oh my god.

01:27:16.000 And GP23.5 could not do that very well, and they're saying 4.0 is really good at it already today.

01:27:21.000 Oh my god.

01:27:23.000 And I don't know where this goes, or what happened.

01:27:26.000 We're gonna be completely entangled with this world of artificial intelligence.

01:27:31.000 You know what's crazy, man, is I don't want to have anything to do with it.

01:27:34.000 You shouldn't.

01:27:34.000 Well, especially considering what you have been doing for all these years as a guide and an outfitter.

01:27:41.000 It's like the last thing.

01:27:43.000 It's like as far removed from that world as possible.

01:27:46.000 This may sound like so asinine, Joe, but I just look at it and I'm like, I... I already feel like I'm playing the coolest video game.

01:27:54.000 Right.

01:27:54.000 The wild video game.

01:27:55.000 Yeah, like the real video game, man.

01:27:57.000 Yeah.

01:27:58.000 There's so many different outdoor stuff, even beyond what I've done.

01:28:03.000 Over the last couple of months, I've become obsessed with tarp and fishing and go fishing with my kids every day.

01:28:09.000 I'm like, dude, there's a million different little outdoor adventures that I can take and I can learn about the gear and learn about the skill set.

01:28:18.000 I don't want to have anything to do with...

01:28:20.000 The metaverse, man.

01:28:21.000 Tarpon fishing must be fun.

01:28:23.000 Those things, but you can't eat them, right?

01:28:25.000 Yeah, you can't.

01:28:26.000 You can't eat them.

01:28:27.000 At all?

01:28:27.000 There's no way to eat them?

01:28:28.000 Well, I mean, I think you can't.

01:28:29.000 Can't you smoke them or something?

01:28:31.000 I think you can't.

01:28:32.000 Well, so, I don't know what they taste like or what the deal is.

01:28:36.000 I mean, obviously, you could eat them.

01:28:38.000 Well, let's Google.

01:28:39.000 Why can't you eat tarpon?

01:28:41.000 The main reason they're not eating is just because of their value as a sport fish.

01:28:48.000 Oh.

01:28:49.000 That's it?

01:28:50.000 But what about marlin?

01:28:51.000 Because people eat marlin.

01:28:52.000 Yeah, but even billfish, like marlin, sailfish and stuff, a lot of the times they don't eat them because, you know, they want to recatch them.

01:28:59.000 So it says, tarpon are rarely eaten because their flesh is filled with small, hard-to-clean bones.

01:29:05.000 In the United States, the tarpon usually is caught for sport and then released as a bony, strong-smelling saltwater fish and maybe more trouble than pleasure to eat.

01:29:15.000 Yeah, and I've heard that.

01:29:17.000 They're like very bony.

01:29:18.000 Have you ever seen them, Joe?

01:29:20.000 No, not in the flesh.

01:29:21.000 They have like a prehistoric look, man.

01:29:25.000 A tarpon can be harvested only for those anglers that are seeking the state of Florida record for tarpon fishing.

01:29:31.000 Are they only in Florida?

01:29:33.000 Is it the only state that has them?

01:29:34.000 No, the Caribbean has them.

01:29:35.000 Lots of places have them.

01:29:36.000 But it'd be in the United States?

01:29:37.000 Is Florida the only state that has them in the United States?

01:29:40.000 I don't know.

01:29:41.000 I don't think so.

01:29:42.000 So it says a special stamp must be acquired along with a saltwater fishing license to harvest a tarpon of any size.

01:29:50.000 Yeah.

01:29:51.000 Interesting.

01:29:51.000 So if you want to get a trophy, you have to have a stamp in advance.

01:29:55.000 Like, imagine if you're just tarpon fishing and you get a world record.

01:29:59.000 Like, hey, I don't have a stamp.

01:30:01.000 You have to just let it go.

01:30:02.000 Yeah, you know, a lot of times now with fish, when people get them mounted, they're replicas anyways.

01:30:10.000 Yeah, of course.

01:30:11.000 You know, most build fish and stuff.

01:30:12.000 That's a weird thing, isn't it?

01:30:13.000 It is kind of funny.

01:30:14.000 I went over a guy's house and he had a real trout, and I was like, Oh, nice.

01:30:20.000 This is a real one.

01:30:21.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:30:22.000 Because there's so many, like for people that don't know, like say if a guy catches, like one of my neighbors is a big time bass fisherman and he just sent me, I'll pull it up for you because he's pretty hardcore and he just caught this, shout out to my friend Alan,

01:30:38.000 he just caught this 13 pound bass.

01:30:41.000 Wow, that's huge, man.

01:30:42.000 Yeah, that's pretty nice right there.

01:30:45.000 Oh yeah.

01:30:45.000 So what he'll do is he gets all the measurements and the photos of that and then he brings it to a company that basically makes him a plastic fish.

01:30:55.000 Yeah.

01:30:55.000 It's like my feeling is I would rather just have that photo of him.

01:31:00.000 Yeah, just frame the picture up.

01:31:01.000 Frame that picture on your wall, man, because he's a catch and release guy so he lets the fish go.

01:31:05.000 Yeah.

01:31:06.000 But like, come on, man.

01:31:07.000 Why you have a plastic fake fish?

01:31:09.000 It's like if you had your kids. 1.00

01:31:11.000 Instead of a photo of your kid, you had a plastic version of your kid with fucking goofy fake eyes. 1.00

01:31:16.000 That's so stupid. 1.00

01:31:17.000 Why would you do that? 1.00

01:31:19.000 Yeah, I don't know, man.

01:31:20.000 Right?

01:31:21.000 To be honest, even on the species we're talking about hunting, I'm kind of over taxidermy on that, too.

01:31:30.000 You saw what I do.

01:31:33.000 I learned that from Ranella.

01:31:34.000 Ranella was my first mentor.

01:31:36.000 And he's like, I just do not like the eyeballs, the whole thing, the plastic.

01:31:42.000 It's like, yeah, when I look at a mount, like a shoulder mount, I'm looking at this thing that's not really the animal.

01:31:50.000 And sometimes it's not even the real cape.

01:31:52.000 It's someone else's cape.

01:31:53.000 Because when I hunt, a lot of people know that I don't I use European mounts, so they'll say, oh, would you like to donate your cape?

01:32:03.000 I'm like, sure, yeah.

01:32:04.000 Let's preserve the cape, so if someone needs a cape.

01:32:07.000 Because sometimes a hunter will fuck the cape up, or they'll fall down a mountain or something like that. 0.78

01:32:11.000 But I just don't get it. 0.96

01:32:14.000 That's a statue.

01:32:16.000 That's not the animal I shot.

01:32:17.000 I get it where you're recreating this image in your mind, like, that's what he looked like when he was coming through the trees.

01:32:25.000 But don't you have a photo in your head?

01:32:27.000 Yeah.

01:32:27.000 No, I'm with you on it, man.

01:32:29.000 And it's crazy because I do...

01:32:31.000 Like, some of these taxidermists are pretty...

01:32:33.000 They're so good at it.

01:32:34.000 Amazing.

01:32:35.000 They do...

01:32:36.000 It's an art form.

01:32:37.000 You know, they do a phenomenal job.

01:32:39.000 You know, I just don't want to...

01:32:41.000 I just don't want to maintain them anymore.

01:32:44.000 You know what I mean?

01:32:44.000 Like, maintain them and drag them around when I move.

01:32:47.000 Right.

01:32:47.000 And then my kids, when they inherit them, they're just going to throw them in the...

01:32:51.000 The dump or something.

01:32:53.000 Right, right, right.

01:32:54.000 So it's kind of that.

01:32:54.000 That is a weird, like some people have trophy rooms in a house where their entire room is filled with these animals like a sheep that's on fake rocks looking around.

01:33:06.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:33:07.000 Dude, I'll admit, if I go somewhere and somebody has one of those, I like walking around it with them and they tell me all the stories about all the hunts.

01:33:16.000 I just don't want one.

01:33:17.000 I just don't want one.

01:33:18.000 Yeah, I'm not interested in that.

01:33:19.000 I'm not interested in that, but I think it's kind of dope.

01:33:23.000 You're not a hide guy.

01:33:25.000 No.

01:33:26.000 No bear hides?

01:33:28.000 I have some bear hides.

01:33:29.000 Yeah.

01:33:29.000 Yeah, they're just not here.

01:33:30.000 They're at my house.

01:33:31.000 They're actually at my house in California. 1.00

01:33:34.000 If I did ever shoot a brown bear, I'd mount that motherfucker. 1.00

01:33:38.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1.00

01:33:39.000 Especially if it was a big one, like a Kodiak bear.

01:33:41.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:33:42.000 I would want that mounted.

01:33:43.000 Because that's like, come on, man.

01:33:44.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:33:45.000 My brother's got one in his, like, financial office, which nowadays is, like, totally, like, you know, not politically correct.

01:33:53.000 But when you walk in there, they got a big interior BC. Well, you want to...

01:33:57.000 Yeah.

01:33:58.000 But...

01:33:58.000 Fight off the bear market.

01:34:00.000 Yeah, yeah, that's right.

01:34:02.000 Yeah, it's, uh...

01:34:04.000 It's...

01:34:05.000 It's very controversial, but it's, you know, it's controversial with people that don't understand it.

01:34:10.000 Yeah.

01:34:10.000 That's really what it is.

01:34:11.000 And it's controversial with people that don't understand ecosystems, they don't understand, I mean, a lot of them actually eat meat.

01:34:19.000 That is the craziest thing.

01:34:21.000 The people that don't eat meat that don't like hunting.

01:34:24.000 Or that, excuse me, that eat meat, rather, and don't like hunting.

01:34:28.000 Yeah.

01:34:29.000 That's strange.

01:34:30.000 Yeah.

01:34:30.000 You know, it's very strange to me.

01:34:33.000 Well, I think a lot of the topics we're talking about, Joe, it's just a reflection of this distance between the reality of being a human and the distance that we've put in between.

01:34:44.000 Yeah.

01:34:45.000 I was having this discussion.

01:34:46.000 You know, you could go...

01:34:48.000 If you go behind any fancy steakhouse, like you go behind Gibson's in Chicago, one of these fancy steakhouses or somewhere in Manhattan, and if you went through the dumpster, you would find a bunch of half steaks.

01:35:06.000 You'd find three quarters of a steak, half a steak.

01:35:10.000 To me, it's crazy to think about that probably a lot of people that are eating in that restaurant, they're probably against hunting, but they're willing to take half a steak and throw it away.

01:35:23.000 I don't know.

01:35:25.000 To me, that seems so wild to think.

01:35:30.000 It's just ignorance.

01:35:32.000 They're against hunting, but they don't know what it is.

01:35:35.000 They've never experienced it.

01:35:37.000 Or they have this version of it from movies.

01:35:39.000 Yeah.

01:35:40.000 Which is weird.

01:35:41.000 Sure.

01:35:41.000 Because the movie version of Hunters is like from the movie Wolverine.

01:35:45.000 Like the Hunters are always the assholes. 0.99

01:35:46.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1.00

01:35:46.000 Wolverine has to kick their ass. 1.00

01:35:48.000 Dude, that's still the case in like in any, you know, show that, you know, a kid show. 1.00

01:35:54.000 If a hunter shows up, he's like the dick. 0.88

01:35:57.000 Isn't that weird that that's the case, but it's not the case with Fisherman. 0.99

01:36:01.000 Yeah.

01:36:01.000 When someone's fishing, it's always a happy thing.

01:36:03.000 Hi, fishing, just casting the fish.

01:36:06.000 Isn't it interesting?

01:36:07.000 I don't know why that is, man.

01:36:08.000 Especially fly fishing.

01:36:10.000 That's a gentleman. 1.00

01:36:11.000 You never think of a fly fisherman being an asshole. 1.00

01:36:14.000 It's all catch and release. 1.00

01:36:15.000 That's their argument, I guess.

01:36:17.000 But it isn't always.

01:36:18.000 I mean, it's only catch and release in certain places.

01:36:22.000 The catch and release thing is odd.

01:36:24.000 I don't really enjoy it.

01:36:26.000 I mean, I've done it, but I'm always like, what are we doing? 0.99

01:36:30.000 We're just fucking with these fish. 0.92

01:36:31.000 We're just fucking with these fish and we're trying to get this weird little charge out of catching them. 0.98

01:36:39.000 You know what's wild, man? 0.95

01:36:42.000 Since I sold my business, Joe, I literally go fishing with my kids almost every other day.

01:36:48.000 So are you retired now?

01:36:50.000 Nah, well, dude, I don't...

01:36:51.000 Taking some time off?

01:36:53.000 Yeah, I'm working on...

01:36:54.000 Well, I'm taking some time off, but I've actually been trying to crank on the YouTube deal, you know, and really get that.

01:37:00.000 You put up some really good content and very informative.

01:37:03.000 Yeah, no, I appreciate it, man.

01:37:04.000 It's really good stuff.

01:37:05.000 So that's kind of like my focus, and I got some ideas that I'm going to continue to work on on that front.

01:37:11.000 Do you want some more coffee?

01:37:12.000 No, I'm good, man.

01:37:13.000 I'm good.

01:37:14.000 As a matter of fact, I need to work on this a little bit. 0.96

01:37:15.000 It's probably cold as fuck right now. 0.88

01:37:17.000 Well, the thing is, my wife actually warned me before coming on here. 0.99

01:37:21.000 She said, don't drink a bunch of coffee because you talk too fast. 1.00

01:37:24.000 Oh, really?

01:37:24.000 Oh, that's funny.

01:37:25.000 She's giving you advice.

01:37:27.000 That's so funny.

01:37:28.000 But it was good advice, so I'll take it from her.

01:37:30.000 That's hilarious.

01:37:31.000 But anyways, man, I lost my...

01:37:33.000 Oh, yeah!

01:37:34.000 I was telling you...

01:37:35.000 Informative YouTube stuff.

01:37:36.000 Well, yeah, so the YouTube stuff is one of my focuses, but this kind of period of time has given me some time to, you know, go fishing.

01:37:44.000 I go fishing with my kids like every other morning.

01:37:46.000 Where are you living these days?

01:37:47.000 I'm living...

01:37:48.000 Well, so I've been in Puerto Rico the last four or five months.

01:37:51.000 I got a brother who lives there.

01:37:52.000 So I've been down there, you know, working on my stuff, but doing...

01:37:58.000 Puerto Rico, huh?

01:38:00.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:38:00.000 Wow.

01:38:01.000 Yeah, I know some people that live down there.

01:38:05.000 It's a good place to avoid taxes.

01:38:08.000 For some folks.

01:38:12.000 But it's also, you know, my time spent there, Joe, it actually, Puerto Rico is an interesting place.

01:38:18.000 Like the whole like legal structure of the place is interesting.

01:38:21.000 But actually from like an outdoorsman perspective, it has like all this, to me at least, like all this untapped stuff.

01:38:29.000 But the problem is I'm like a...

01:38:30.000 I'm like from that one kid's cartoon where the dog sees a squirrel and is like, squirrel?

01:38:36.000 With outdoor stuff, I'm like that, man.

01:38:38.000 So I'm like, oh, tarponfish is dying!

01:38:40.000 And then spearfishing.

01:38:41.000 So I tend to get drawn every way.

01:38:43.000 But when I'm there, I'm like, dude, there's so many cool outdoor stuff to do there.

01:38:48.000 I mean, I have a home there, but we were only going to stay there a couple months.

01:38:52.000 We homeschooled our kids, and now we've been there for like six months.

01:38:55.000 Just kidding.

01:38:57.000 Anyways, back to the fishing part, man, I didn't mean to get sidetracked, is what's crazy with the catch and release thing, like my little boy, he cannot believe that we would release anything.

01:39:10.000 Right, because it's not normal.

01:39:12.000 Yeah, he's like, Like, yeah.

01:39:13.000 He looks at, like, your reaction to people's, his reaction too.

01:39:17.000 Like, I mean, a lot of times, and we keep a lot of them, you know, little snappers and stuff.

01:39:21.000 They cook them.

01:39:22.000 They like to do the whole process.

01:39:23.000 But he cannot believe, man.

01:39:25.000 Like, I'm like, alright, we gotta turn this one back.

01:39:27.000 And he's like, why?

01:39:30.000 What are you talking about, Dad?

01:39:32.000 And then he tries to negotiate with me, and he's like, right before I put it back, he'll be like, Dad, can we use it for bait?

01:39:39.000 That's hilarious.

01:39:41.000 That's hilarious.

01:39:42.000 Well, I think it's just normal human instincts, right?

01:39:45.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:39:46.000 It's like, well, we're doing this.

01:39:47.000 What is the point?

01:39:48.000 Yeah.

01:39:49.000 What are we out here for? 1.00

01:39:50.000 Are you just fucking with these fish? 1.00

01:39:51.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:39:52.000 Which is basically what fly fishermen are doing.

01:39:54.000 Right.

01:39:54.000 The barbless hooks.

01:39:56.000 They're just out there fucking with fish. 0.98

01:39:58.000 Dude, I've heard you talk about it on this podcast, man. 0.99

01:40:01.000 They're all after that feeling.

01:40:03.000 You know, there's that jiggle from a fish, man. 0.98

01:40:09.000 If you could sneak up on people and shoot them with a suction cup, people would do it. 0.95

01:40:13.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:40:14.000 Yeah, if you knew you could just like, I got you bitch, and no one gets hurt, that's what people like. 1.00

01:40:19.000 Do you feel like you get that from, do you feel like the feeling like when a bull comes in when you're archery hunting or you make a good archery shot on a bull elk, do you feel like you get a similar feeling than you do like a related feeling when you're fishing? 0.98

01:40:35.000 Yeah, it's a very minor version of the bull elk feeling when you're fishing.

01:40:40.000 When you're fishing, you get a...

01:40:41.000 Oh, I got one.

01:40:43.000 I got a good one.

01:40:44.000 It's fun.

01:40:45.000 It's very exciting.

01:40:46.000 I love fishing with my kids because I love that they can catch something and then they can cook it and we can eat something that they got.

01:40:57.000 My daughter caught a wahoo when we were in Hawaii.

01:41:00.000 It was one of the first times she ever caught a really good-sized fish.

01:41:04.000 She's caught...

01:41:05.000 At the time, this was like quite a few years back when she was, I guess she was probably like five or six.

01:41:12.000 She had caught like a couple of like little snappers and stuff like that, like deep sea fishing, just dropping a line down way low.

01:41:20.000 But this was the first like really good sized fish she caught.

01:41:23.000 She was so proud.

01:41:24.000 And so when we were eating, you know, we're like, thank you for catching this.

01:41:28.000 You caught our dinner.

01:41:29.000 She's like, all you people are eating because of me.

01:41:31.000 It was fun.

01:41:32.000 You know, it's like, it's exciting.

01:41:34.000 Yeah.

01:41:34.000 Yeah, of course.

01:41:35.000 You get that little charge out of catching a fish.

01:41:39.000 But a bull elk is that times ten, times a hundred, times a thousand.

01:41:45.000 It's not even...

01:41:46.000 Derek Wolf said it best.

01:41:48.000 He was talking about sacking Tom Brady.

01:41:50.000 He's like, it's not even close.

01:41:51.000 He's like, sacking Tom Brady's fun.

01:41:53.000 Don't get me wrong.

01:41:54.000 But it's not even close to shooting a bull elk.

01:41:57.000 And I'm like, I'm so glad he said that.

01:41:59.000 Because that's how I feel about when people say...

01:42:02.000 They ask me, God, you do so many exciting things.

01:42:04.000 You do stand-up, you host the UFC, all these different things you've done in your life.

01:42:08.000 You used to fight.

01:42:10.000 What's the most exciting?

01:42:11.000 I'm like, bowhunting elk is about as heart-pounding and as exciting as possible. 0.95

01:42:17.000 When you're hiding behind a tree and you're at full draw and you see the tips of those antlers moving through the brush and you know he's about to make it into the opening, and you're like, Holy shit!

01:42:30.000 And you're at full draw, just sitting there, and then he comes in there, and then the arrow releases, and I use Illuminoc, or Nocturnal.

01:42:39.000 You see that green knock just sending it right through the golden triangle.

01:42:44.000 You're like, yes!

01:42:46.000 It's the greatest feeling in the world!

01:42:48.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.99

01:42:48.000 And knowing that you're going to eat that thing, and the smell of the fucking burning wood, and the searing meat. 0.99

01:42:56.000 I can smell it right now. 0.99

01:42:59.000 It's the best food in the world, too.

01:43:01.000 I prefer it over everything.

01:43:04.000 Elk.

01:43:04.000 Yeah, elk is my favorite.

01:43:06.000 I really like Neil Guy.

01:43:07.000 I shot a Neil Guy recently.

01:43:08.000 It's very good.

01:43:09.000 Very good.

01:43:10.000 But elk is the best.

01:43:13.000 I think it's the best. 0.78

01:43:15.000 Axis is pretty goddamn good, too. 0.75

01:43:18.000 Have you had Axis? 0.99

01:43:19.000 Yeah, you know, I had it, oh, the Maui Venison guys, they said that to me.

01:43:26.000 Was it called Maui Nui?

01:43:28.000 Maui Nui, yeah.

01:43:29.000 Is that it?

01:43:30.000 Yeah, I think Maui Nui Venison.

01:43:32.000 Something like that.

01:43:33.000 I'm sorry if I'm butchering it.

01:43:36.000 Peter Attita is one of the owners of that.

01:43:37.000 We should probably say the name of it right.

01:43:39.000 Is that what it's right?

01:43:40.000 Is it Maui Nui?

01:43:41.000 It is it.

01:43:42.000 That's a great system that they have.

01:43:44.000 So you can buy actual wild game from Maui, and it actually helps.

01:43:49.000 There it is.

01:43:50.000 Maui Nui.

01:43:51.000 They've sent me a bunch of it.

01:43:52.000 They have really good bone broth, too.

01:43:54.000 But the beautiful thing about it is that it's...

01:43:57.000 We're good to go. 0.56

01:44:18.000 Dude, it's amazing to hear the rundown of the process of how they kill them.

01:44:25.000 I don't want to get into the depths of it because I'll butcher it, but if I recall, they essentially go in the field and they have a mobile USDA-approved system that they put it through.

01:44:38.000 It's pretty crazy, man.

01:44:39.000 I talk to them about... 0.84

01:44:40.000 Just, like, the marksmanship component they went into, because they have to kill them all by hitting them in the skullcap, even though they're wild deer, you know?

01:44:51.000 But part of the whole...

01:44:53.000 Arrangement?

01:44:54.000 Yeah, arrangement. 0.80

01:44:54.000 Do they have to die instantly? 0.80

01:44:55.000 Yeah, they have to die instantly, and it's pretty amazing what...

01:44:58.000 What round are they using?

01:45:00.000 Dude, I want to say, I want to say he's hit.308.

01:45:03.000 Okay, and so are they shooting them at night?

01:45:07.000 Yeah, so they shoot them at night and they use thermals, but my understanding is they can't use suppressors.

01:45:19.000 Why?

01:45:19.000 Because of Hawaii gun laws, I believe.

01:45:21.000 Oh God, that's so dumb. 1.00

01:45:22.000 Which is like wild, man. 1.00

01:45:24.000 That's so dumb. 0.99

01:45:24.000 Yeah, it doesn't make any... 0.99

01:45:26.000 The suppressor thing is so dumb. 0.97

01:45:27.000 It's like people watch too many James Bond movies. 0.99

01:45:29.000 I know.

01:45:30.000 Because they're awesome.

01:45:32.000 Suppressors are great. 1.00

01:45:33.000 They protect your fucking ears. 1.00

01:45:35.000 The round's still just as lethal. 1.00

01:45:37.000 And as long as you zero it in right, it's still just as accurate.

01:45:40.000 I loved them as a guide because, you know, muzzle brakes became so popular in the last, like, 15 years.

01:45:48.000 And they do.

01:45:49.000 They take out so much recoil.

01:45:51.000 Butt.

01:45:51.000 Butt, man, dude.

01:45:52.000 If you get a guy, if you forget one time to have your ears covered, oof.

01:45:57.000 Yeah, a buddy of mine lost his hearing because the hunter threw the rifle up to take an offhand shot and he was...

01:46:04.000 He was up by the muzzle, yeah.

01:46:05.000 Yeah, he was off to the side of it and he lost his hearing.

01:46:07.000 Yeah.

01:46:08.000 His hearing aids now.

01:46:09.000 Yeah, it takes one time.

01:46:10.000 Yeah, one time.

01:46:11.000 It's crazy, yeah.

01:46:11.000 It is interesting how it works though, isn't it?

01:46:14.000 You know, just having that compensator at the end of the rifle barrel...

01:46:19.000 Sure.

01:46:20.000 ...releases all the gases out the sides and all the sound and actually kicks less.

01:46:25.000 Oh, yeah, and it takes a ton.

01:46:26.000 I mean, a lot of these...

01:46:27.000 Big difference.

01:46:28.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:46:28.000 Particularly these, like, light rifles guys are shooting on these, you know, up doing these mountain hunts and stuff.

01:46:33.000 I mean, you can't hardly...

01:46:35.000 You can't hardly shoot them accurately over time unless you suck a bunch of the recoil out of them.

01:46:42.000 Because you just get so...

01:46:44.000 People get so, you know, they just train themselves so well, yeah.

01:46:47.000 Yeah, but, you know, can you get some of that out with, like, good training?

01:46:53.000 Yeah, I think like the guy you talked to.

01:46:55.000 Joel Turner.

01:46:56.000 Yeah.

01:46:56.000 I think guys, if they really embrace that system and go through the nitty gritty of it, they can.

01:47:05.000 When you were guiding, was like archery hunting, was that like the most sketchy?

01:47:10.000 Like, hey man, let me see you shoot.

01:47:13.000 You know?

01:47:14.000 Because there's so many people, I think, that pick up their bow like two weeks before elk season and shoot it 20 yards a few times like, oh, we're good.

01:47:23.000 Yeah.

01:47:24.000 I don't want to just pick on archery in this respect.

01:47:29.000 I think it goes for all hunting.

01:47:30.000 I think if you're not exposed to, I guess, hunting slash death a lot, you don't realize how messy it can get.

01:47:40.000 You know what I mean?

01:47:41.000 And that goes for guns and archery equipment.

01:47:46.000 If I was being honest...

01:47:50.000 I would rather guide a guy with a gun.

01:47:53.000 Just because all the situations over...

01:47:58.000 I mean, I've guided a lot.

01:48:00.000 I had a lot of guides working for me, so it's a lot of numbers.

01:48:03.000 It's not like everyday occurrence.

01:48:05.000 But you get into those situations where something gets hurt, and I'm talking like, you know, you could be following stuff for days, you know, trying to get it killed, and, you know, once you're exposed to that enough, you become like,

01:48:22.000 you just want everything to be right, you know what I mean?

01:48:26.000 And the reality is, as a hunter, it keeps you from taking sketchy shots.

01:48:31.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:48:32.000 Where people just hope it works out.

01:48:35.000 Yeah.

01:48:35.000 It's one thing Joel Turner talks about.

01:48:37.000 It's like you should never hope a shot works out.

01:48:39.000 No.

01:48:39.000 You should be sure.

01:48:41.000 Like when you are releasing that arrow, like he's so precise in his language.

01:48:45.000 Right.

01:48:46.000 When you're releasing that arrow, you absolutely know that arrow's going to hit its mark.

01:48:50.000 Yeah.

01:48:50.000 Because you've trained for it.

01:48:52.000 The thing about...

01:48:54.000 All of it is that until you experience it, you really don't know.

01:49:00.000 It's one of those things where people think they can keep it together.

01:49:05.000 I kind of equate it to like a fight because a lot of people think like, oh man, if I get in a fight, don't worry about me, bro.

01:49:12.000 I know how to fight.

01:49:13.000 But the reality is like in an actual physical confrontation, if you don't have any experience in it, you're going to freak out.

01:49:20.000 Your heart rate's going to go through...

01:49:21.000 Heart rate is going to go through the roof.

01:49:23.000 You're going to gas out almost instantly.

01:49:25.000 You're going to full panic.

01:49:27.000 You're going to have tunnel vision.

01:49:28.000 It's like you need to experience that just to understand what it is and to say that you can be calm in that situation.

01:49:37.000 Yeah, and you were talking about the heart thump in these situations.

01:49:41.000 I mean, it'll feel like your heart's going to blow out your chest, you know?

01:49:44.000 Oh, yeah.

01:49:44.000 And I've guided people who, you know, adults, you know, they seem like competent guys, and there's so much pressure around a shot opportunity, or at least they're manifesting it around them.

01:49:59.000 Like, you know, you've been in the mountains, you've been, you know...

01:50:02.000 You're on a backpack, you know, sheep hunt or something for six, seven days, and there's a bunch of money involved, a bunch of time involved, and then the guy gets a shot opportunity, and there's so much pressure, and there's like, at that moment, and then boom, the gun goes off, and the first question I always ask,

01:50:19.000 because it tells me a whole lot about, you know, what probably happened, I always ask a hunter, how did it feel?

01:50:26.000 You know, that's my first question to a hunter after he shoots, because that'll tell me a lot about, you know, what's going on.

01:50:31.000 And I can, several times I've had a guy go, I wish I wouldn't have shot.

01:50:36.000 And I'm like, why?

01:50:38.000 Like, why did you shoot?

01:50:39.000 And the only thing I can...

01:50:40.000 Anxiety.

01:50:41.000 Yeah.

01:50:41.000 It's just...

01:50:42.000 Panic.

01:50:43.000 Get it over with.

01:50:43.000 Yeah.

01:50:44.000 And it's crazy.

01:50:45.000 It's like, dude, why did you shoot?

01:50:46.000 Well, do you ever have a conversation with them before that about that and tell them, like, do not shoot unless you're ready.

01:50:53.000 There's going to be a thing.

01:50:54.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:50:56.000 Because my deal is like, and this is a very basic way to look at it, and I'm sure Joel would have a more sophisticated way for people to have time to go through the process.

01:51:06.000 But I always tell guys with rifle hunting, the primary thing you have to do is you have to get a good rest in the mouth.

01:51:15.000 That's the beauty of rifle hunting over bow hunting.

01:51:19.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:51:20.000 Is that with a good rest and if you're prone in particular, like, God, I'm reasonably certain I'm going to fucking hit that animal every time.

01:51:29.000 Yeah, and that's what I, like, in the discussion I have, is like, look, first thing we're gonna do is gonna get a good rest, and then if you cannot keep the crosshairs within a defined vital area that we're talking about, you tell me, and we're gonna move your rest, 0.74

01:51:44.000 get you a better rest, adjust your rest, maybe go from your pack back to your bipod, something like that, or we're gonna get closer.

01:51:51.000 But please do not shoot.

01:51:53.000 And a lot of, some of that's practical, you know what I mean?

01:51:56.000 Yes.

01:51:56.000 Like, I don't want to trek my ass around looking for those rams now that they're hauling ass over, you know, two rims.

01:52:03.000 It's also for the experience of the person that you're doing it with. 0.84

01:52:06.000 Right, but it's also, I don't want one to get hurt and it to go, you know, it to become, you know, a negative experience for everybody, you know, the animal.

01:52:16.000 Sheep hunting, to me, is a fascinating thing because it's these weird rich guys...

01:52:21.000 That spend so much money.

01:52:23.000 And for people that don't know, I was trying to explain this to someone the other day, and they were incredulous.

01:52:29.000 They were like, what?

01:52:30.000 I go, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars for this governor tax. 1.00

01:52:34.000 And they were going, shut the fuck up. 0.99

01:52:36.000 I go, yeah, hundreds of thousands of dollars people spend to go and just hunt a bighorn sheep. 1.00

01:52:43.000 Yeah.

01:52:44.000 I mean, my take on it, I've guided quite a few of the hunts.

01:52:49.000 So one thing about it is it's actually a fairly small community of sheep hunters.

01:52:55.000 There's actually not that many of them.

01:52:57.000 But the thing about it is, as a wildlife resource, they're also not all that abundant.

01:53:02.000 So I think...

01:53:04.000 If I was being totally honest, I would say that part of the whole, you know, the whole, like, chic of the whole thing is just that it's scarce.

01:53:13.000 Not everybody can have a tag.

01:53:14.000 Right, right, right.

01:53:15.000 Because, you know, a sheep hunt, a Rocky Mountain bighorn hunt is not that different than a high country mule deer hunt in a lot of ways, you know.

01:53:25.000 But the animal, obviously, just there's a species difference, right?

01:53:28.000 Right.

01:53:28.000 Well, the Alaska ones are pretty wild, though.

01:53:31.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:53:31.000 Like the doll sheep hunts.

01:53:32.000 Yeah, the doll sheep hunts are nuts.

01:53:34.000 People are literally risking their lives.

01:53:36.000 Oh yeah, sure.

01:53:37.000 That's the species where people die the most, right?

01:53:40.000 They fall off cliffs.

01:53:41.000 So it might be by volume.

01:53:43.000 In terms of my experience, mountain goat hunting is the worst by far.

01:53:47.000 Same kind of a situation, though.

01:53:49.000 But the thing is, you know, Joe, mountain goats, where the sheep stop, mountain goats start.

01:53:55.000 You know what I mean?

01:53:57.000 Dude, I cannot tell you how many times I've sat on goats and been like, there's no way we're going to kill them there because there's no way we'll get them.

01:54:04.000 You know what I mean?

01:54:05.000 And then, I was actually talking to one of my guides about a week ago about it, and he's like, Cliff, you know, there's like There's three times that I felt like there was a chance of me dying in my lifetime, and two of them when I was guiding mountain goats for you. 0.99

01:54:21.000 Dude, it's just, they live in the steepest shit you can imagine, man. 0.98

01:54:24.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:54:25.000 And I love them, dude.

01:54:26.000 They're cool.

01:54:26.000 They are cool.

01:54:27.000 They're way cool.

01:54:28.000 The way they can move off on insanely steep ledges.

01:54:34.000 Blow your mind.

01:54:35.000 I just, like, do they have, like, flexible hooves?

01:54:39.000 Yeah.

01:54:40.000 So they have a...

01:54:41.000 Yeah, their foot, it's wider.

01:54:44.000 There they go.

01:54:44.000 Look at them.

01:54:45.000 Look at this motherfucker. 1.00

01:54:47.000 These, I believe... 1.00

01:54:48.000 That's not mountain boats.

01:54:49.000 I think that's a type of Ibex.

01:54:51.000 Ibex, yeah.

01:54:53.000 But same stuff, dude.

01:54:54.000 But look at that.

01:54:55.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:54:55.000 I mean, what in the fuck is happening here? 0.99

01:54:57.000 Like, if I saw a man doing that, I'd be like, dude, get down. 0.99

01:55:00.000 Please don't do this. 1.00

01:55:01.000 Don't fucking do it. 1.00

01:55:02.000 Like, this thing just knows how to do it. 1.00

01:55:05.000 Yeah.

01:55:05.000 But why is it not scared of heights?

01:55:07.000 Like, what has genetic...

01:55:12.000 Yeah, that's a mountain goat there. 1.00

01:55:13.000 Oh, that's a mountain goat. 0.93

01:55:14.000 Mountain goats are beautiful.

01:55:15.000 Dude, they're stunning, man.

01:55:17.000 They're so beautiful.

01:55:18.000 Look at that.

01:55:19.000 That guy's like holding it with his face.

01:55:21.000 That's so crazy that they do that.

01:55:23.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:55:24.000 That they literally walk up the side of a fucking... 1.00

01:55:26.000 That looks like a dam. 1.00

01:55:29.000 That one might be sick. 0.86

01:55:30.000 Oh, hi.

01:55:31.000 How you doing?

01:55:32.000 What's going on?

01:55:33.000 Just chilling over here.

01:55:35.000 See if you can find the white mountain goats.

01:55:37.000 Yeah, there's a bunch of pictures there.

01:55:38.000 They're so beautiful, man.

01:55:40.000 Look at that photo.

01:55:41.000 Go back to that photo you just had.

01:55:42.000 Look at that photo.

01:55:43.000 That's so beautiful.

01:55:44.000 Oh yeah, they're way cool, man.

01:55:46.000 How delicious are they?

01:55:48.000 Are they good?

01:55:49.000 They're not my favorite game meat, but they're pretty good.

01:55:52.000 That's why I'm out.

01:55:54.000 I'm only interested in hunting things that I really want to eat.

01:55:57.000 Yeah, the primary.

01:55:59.000 I shot a javelina recently, and I had it converted into chorizo.

01:56:03.000 I was going to try it this morning, but I got up late.

01:56:05.000 I never tried it, but I haven't heard great things, man.

01:56:08.000 Well, the guys at the ranch that I'm at say if you turn it into chorizo, it's actually very good.

01:56:13.000 It's pretty good.

01:56:14.000 Yeah.

01:56:15.000 We're going to find out tomorrow because it was supposed to be my breakfast this morning, but I got up late.

01:56:20.000 Oh, I gotcha.

01:56:21.000 But no, mountain goats are, I mean, they're not going to rank up with elk to me.

01:56:27.000 Yeah, so that's why I'm out.

01:56:29.000 Yeah, go elk hunting.

01:56:30.000 Unless they run out of elk, which may happen in Colorado.

01:56:34.000 Yeah, who knows?

01:56:36.000 Yeah, well, Colorado has more elk than I think any other state, right?

01:56:43.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:56:44.000 By quite a bit.

01:56:45.000 And in terms of hunting opportunity, you know, because they have so much over-the-counter stuff, which is starting to change a little bit, it's way more than other states.

01:56:54.000 For now.

01:56:55.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:56:56.000 Dude, actually, back to the...

01:57:00.000 Back to what we were talking about on that, man, because I don't think I did a great job of explaining myself with the Yellowstone deal.

01:57:08.000 In that video, what I was getting at, Joe, is that people don't realize that when Yellowstone originally had a problem with the elk, they were sending all these elk out as transplants.

01:57:19.000 So that was a way to actually control the population in Yellowstone.

01:57:22.000 Ah, I see.

01:57:23.000 And then the rangers in the 60s, they were actually shooting them too.

01:57:28.000 You know, they were shooting them to suppress the population.

01:57:31.000 And they actually, what happened in the early 60s, they had like massive controversy on the park.

01:57:40.000 And this is all documented.

01:57:42.000 I'm a nerd, so I've read the history of it.

01:57:44.000 But they wanted to have a hunt on the park.

01:57:48.000 To do exactly what this video claims the wolves did in the 90s, there was a lot of discussion in the 60s of having a draw or whatever and getting a bunch of hunters on the park to solve the range issue.

01:58:03.000 Because see, what happened was they quit transplanting the elk off of it because they didn't need to.

01:58:08.000 Nobody wanted the elk.

01:58:10.000 So the elk started to do some damage to the range there.

01:58:14.000 So one of the proposals was to have a hunt in Yellowstone, you know, maybe just a temporary one or whatever, to dissipate the elk.

01:58:22.000 And one of the main reasons it didn't happen is that the park officials, and then I know there's some push from Washington, is they didn't want the elk to not be habituated to people.

01:58:35.000 In the 60s, it's documented that one of the reasons they didn't have hunters in there is they wanted the elk to be comfortable with people.

01:58:43.000 Wow.

01:58:43.000 So to me, and people listening may not find this interesting, but to me, it's like a total bastardization of history, right?

01:58:51.000 It's like, look, you're saying that the wolves did what they did in Yellowstone.

01:58:56.000 And yeah, they did help because there was way too many wolves or way too many elk, particularly in those valleys and stuff, and they were hurting their range.

01:59:04.000 But saying that it was attempted to do it with human intervention and it failed is a total lie, man.

01:59:11.000 Well, also, there's a lot of value in taking those elk from there and, like, moving them to Kentucky and Pennsylvania and all those places where they've repopulated elk.

01:59:24.000 Because elk used to be in basically every state, right?

01:59:27.000 Right.

01:59:28.000 Right.

01:59:28.000 In the Plains, there's a lot of...

01:59:31.000 What do you think about that American Prairie Reserve situation?

01:59:34.000 I'm not super familiar with it, but my understanding is it's basically trying to...

01:59:41.000 Are they directly buying up a bunch of private land?

01:59:44.000 They're doing block management on it.

01:59:46.000 They're buying up all this land and they want to convert it into this...

01:59:50.000 But they're going to allow hunting on it.

01:59:53.000 They're going to turn into this wild area with bison and pronghorn and everything.

02:00:00.000 And it's like they have this design to sort of rewild that, but in a way with undulates.

02:00:07.000 I think all that stuff to me is a good idea as long as we rewild it and it makes sense in a way that hunters or people can still utilize it.

02:00:22.000 It's so weird, Joe, because I think sometimes we forget that it's not like we're aliens.

02:00:30.000 We're part of the ecosystem too, man.

02:00:32.000 Yes, we are.

02:00:33.000 But we don't think of ourselves as because we're so far removed.

02:00:36.000 We're so smart.

02:00:37.000 We want to pretend that we're different.

02:00:40.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:00:41.000 That we shouldn't kill. 0.98

02:00:41.000 We want to kill every day. 0.98

02:00:43.000 Dude, that's... 0.99

02:00:45.000 Isn't that the crazy thing?

02:00:47.000 Like the stake in the garbage.

02:00:48.000 Yeah, dude.

02:00:49.000 But, like, everybody thinks...

02:00:50.000 That, oh, because Joe Rogan, there's a picture of him with a dead elk, that somehow that's different than somebody who indirectly still just lives their life and consumes, right?

02:01:03.000 Yeah, it's just ignorance.

02:01:04.000 It's all it is.

02:01:05.000 I would tell those people, hey, come hunting with me, but I don't want them to.

02:01:13.000 Imagine if you're at full draw and they're like, get away!

02:01:17.000 Yeah!

02:01:20.000 Yeah, that would not be. 1.00

02:01:21.000 That's a year worth of meat to me, you fucking idiot. 1.00

02:01:24.000 Not being good. 1.00

02:01:25.000 Yeah, but it's just a lack of understanding.

02:01:28.000 And it's so difficult to truly understand unless you've experienced it.

02:01:32.000 You know, I'm very grateful that Steve Rinella took me out the first time.

02:01:36.000 You know, I did it with my friend Brian Callan from Meat Eater.

02:01:39.000 We went mule deer hunting.

02:01:40.000 Yeah.

02:01:41.000 And it was so much harder than I ever thought it was going to be.

02:01:45.000 And it was so much more interesting than I thought it was going to be.

02:01:49.000 Also, there's a thing that ignites inside of you, very similar to the fishing thing, where you catch a fish, you're like, ooh!

02:01:56.000 There's a thing when you're stalking an animal that your brain goes, oh yeah, I know what this is.

02:02:03.000 We've done this before.

02:02:05.000 There's a pathway in the mind that exists for that.

02:02:09.000 This is how you acquire meat.

02:02:11.000 And there's an excitement to it because you're going to be able to feed your family.

02:02:14.000 So when I brought that meat back home and I was cooking it and I fed my family with this deer that I ate, I had decided that day.

02:02:24.000 I remember I was cooking with Ranella.

02:02:27.000 We were eating the mule deer over the fire.

02:02:30.000 And we were talking about it.

02:02:33.000 I said, I'm doing this forever.

02:02:34.000 I'm doing this now.

02:02:35.000 Sure.

02:02:36.000 This is my new thing.

02:02:38.000 Yeah.

02:02:38.000 I'm like, I'm doing it.

02:02:38.000 And he was laughing.

02:02:39.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:02:40.000 He loved it.

02:02:41.000 He loved it that he converted me.

02:02:42.000 Because Callan never really got converted. 0.98

02:02:44.000 He'll hunt with me and he'll hunt occasionally, but I fucking block off time. 0.78

02:02:49.000 Yeah, you got focused on it. 0.98

02:02:51.000 I'm hunting.

02:02:52.000 And it's like, that's a primary part of my diet.

02:02:55.000 I eat deer meat all the time.

02:02:56.000 When I did the UFC last weekend, when Jon Jones fought, Daniel Cormier, who's the commentator next to me, and he's a good friend of mine, I always would bring him snacks.

02:03:10.000 There's this company called...

02:03:13.000 Carnivore snacks, and they make these delicious snacks.

02:03:16.000 So I'll bring him beef jerky, and this time I brought him deer sausage.

02:03:20.000 And he's like, man, I can't eat deer, because I ate bad deer once, and I eat deer, I get sick, and I go, just try a little piece of the summer sausage, just try. 0.99

02:03:28.000 He said, oh shit, this is good. 0.99

02:03:30.000 So he started talking about it on the air. 1.00

02:03:31.000 He's like, Joe's got me eating deer sausage.

02:03:33.000 So in the middle of one of the fights, he's talking about me feeding him deer sausage.

02:03:40.000 Sure.

02:03:41.000 Well, dude, I can tell you in my business, Joe, I mean, I'm sure you know this, but you're talking about your little inner circle.

02:03:48.000 You actually created like a trend within hunting.

02:03:53.000 So I would have guys call me, you know, like three, four years ago and It would always be kind of the same story.

02:04:02.000 They're 35 years old and they're into, you know, maybe they're jujitsu guys or something.

02:04:08.000 And just talking to them, having a conversation with them, but they want to come do their first elk hunt.

02:04:13.000 And I would always ask, dude, what got you into it?

02:04:16.000 It's always you, man.

02:04:17.000 Like, you started, like, this mega trend.

02:04:19.000 It was kind of like I could almost identify my clients.

02:04:22.000 I was like, oh, yeah.

02:04:23.000 Like, I know that those guys, they probably got, like, their influence or their motivation from you.

02:04:28.000 So it's pretty wild to see, you know?

02:04:31.000 Well, I feel like the more people that get into it, there's a lot of people that don't like that.

02:04:36.000 They don't like that the trailheads are full.

02:04:38.000 They don't like that there's a lot of people out there wandering around.

02:04:41.000 But you can't think like that.

02:04:42.000 You can't think like that.

02:04:43.000 Those are allies.

02:04:44.000 You need those people.

02:04:46.000 You need more people that understand what it is. 1.00

02:04:48.000 And to think differently, I think, is very selfish and very stupid and foolhardy. 1.00

02:04:52.000 I think you have to think about the small amount of people that hunt. 1.00

02:04:57.000 I don't even know.

02:04:59.000 What is the percentage of Americans who hunt regularly?

02:05:03.000 Oh, that's small.

02:05:04.000 Let's guess.

02:05:05.000 I wouldn't say it's 3%.

02:05:08.000 I don't even think it's three.

02:05:09.000 I'm going to guess it's less than three who hunt regularly.

02:05:13.000 I mean, I don't know what regularly is.

02:05:15.000 There's probably different metrics that we could apply.

02:05:17.000 But it's very small.

02:05:19.000 And I do understand...

02:05:22.000 What does it say here?

02:05:25.000 15 million hunting licenses were issued to the U.S. population that year, so 4.6%.

02:05:30.000 Yeah, but you're probably right, Joe.

02:05:31.000 I bet you that less than half of them really hunt regularly.

02:05:35.000 You know what I mean?

02:05:35.000 Regularly.

02:05:36.000 But that's still...

02:05:37.000 Okay, 4.6% of the U.S. population was issued a hunting license that year.

02:05:42.000 And that's 2020. I think I'm responsible for 1%.

02:05:46.000 Yeah, I bet you are, man.

02:05:48.000 Now, I can tell you this.

02:05:50.000 From individuals that started hunting that are older than 25 and didn't have a father that hunted or a family that hunted, you're responsible for way more than 1% of them, man.

02:06:03.000 That's hilarious.

02:06:05.000 But listen, if those people can do it and be successful, they'll experience what I've experienced.

02:06:09.000 Oh, yeah.

02:06:10.000 And there's also the argument like, oh, you know, you're wealthy.

02:06:13.000 You can experience things differently.

02:06:14.000 You get to go places other people can't go.

02:06:16.000 Yeah, that's true.

02:06:17.000 So I don't know what to tell you.

02:06:19.000 What do you want me to do?

02:06:20.000 Not be wealthy? 1.00

02:06:21.000 Like, shut the fuck up. 1.00

02:06:22.000 Just stop making excuses. 1.00

02:06:24.000 It's not really relevant.

02:06:25.000 You know what I mean?

02:06:26.000 It's not relevant.

02:06:27.000 And also, there's plenty of opportunities for people that aren't wealthy.

02:06:29.000 Well, dude, that's the thing, man.

02:06:31.000 If you're in the U.S., from a hunting perspective, regardless of, like, your economic situation, you got the best opportunities on the hunting front.

02:06:41.000 There's nothing like it.

02:06:41.000 There's nothing like it in the rest of the world.

02:06:43.000 I mean, the New Zealanders got some great opportunities, too.

02:06:46.000 It's just a little bit different.

02:06:48.000 But here, it's like, I mean, it's, like you said, like, you know, it's probably the most economical hunting situation I think there is in the world if you're an American.

02:06:57.000 Texas is not the best.

02:06:59.000 Texas is, it's great if you have money because there's all these private ranches, but Texas is like 90 something percent private land.

02:07:06.000 Right.

02:07:07.000 And neighborhoods with deer.

02:07:09.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:07:09.000 If you're a jackass. 1.00

02:07:11.000 It's like, I keep an eye on the deer in my neighborhood in case shit goes down. 1.00

02:07:15.000 Oh, yeah. 0.99

02:07:15.000 Because there's so many of them. 0.99

02:07:17.000 They're fucking everywhere, man. 1.00

02:07:18.000 They're everywhere. 1.00

02:07:20.000 Because mountain lions out here are basically like coyotes.

02:07:23.000 You see a mountain lion, you just shoot it.

02:07:24.000 Right.

02:07:25.000 Which is interesting.

02:07:26.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:07:26.000 If it's coming from California, where you go to jail.

02:07:29.000 Yeah, a different way they manage them.

02:07:31.000 This is better.

02:07:32.000 Yeah.

02:07:33.000 Do you have any interest in hunting lions?

02:07:34.000 I do.

02:07:35.000 Yeah.

02:07:35.000 I'd like to eat one of them.

02:07:36.000 Dude, they're...

02:07:37.000 You talk about the heart thump?

02:07:40.000 Oh, yeah.

02:07:41.000 I'm sure.

02:07:42.000 When I got into hunting them, Joe, when you know dogs have one treed or in a cave or something like that, and you're making your way up there, it'll make your heart blow out of your...

02:07:55.000 I can imagine.

02:07:56.000 And even...

02:07:56.000 You know, I love going and just taking pictures of them.

02:08:00.000 Like, I got a bunch of pictures on my phone of just me, like selfies, just me being a jackass with a lion up here in the tree, you know, or whatever.

02:08:07.000 The thing that's interesting to me is also the pushback on the dogs, and I get that.

02:08:12.000 I really do get that, especially as someone who loves dogs, because sometimes the dogs die.

02:08:16.000 Yeah.

02:08:18.000 But the fairness aspect of it, which is interesting, and that's where I think education is very important and people understanding, especially from someone who's being honest and objective about it.

02:08:31.000 Like, I could absolutely understand why someone would say it is not fair to hunt mountain lions with dogs.

02:08:39.000 But I will tell you, That if you want to shoot a mountain lion, you're not going to unless you use dogs.

02:08:46.000 Yeah.

02:08:46.000 Or unless you hunt over a dead animal that they've killed, you could find it and locate it.

02:08:51.000 If you think you're going to stalk a mountain lion, you're going to go find them and stalk them, your odds of success are so low.

02:09:00.000 Right.

02:09:01.000 Like you could do it for years and never see one.

02:09:04.000 Right.

02:09:05.000 Yeah, no, it's just an effectiveness thing, right?

02:09:10.000 In terms of managing them, you have to have dogs.

02:09:14.000 Now, I have known a few people, and I actually would love to try it one day.

02:09:19.000 Well, I have tried it a few times without effectiveness.

02:09:22.000 There are a few people that will walk tracks, walk tracks out of lions, like in the snow.

02:09:27.000 You know, they're just trying to find really fresh tracks, and then they'll walk them out.

02:09:33.000 And I know a couple guys who've killed lions that way, but, you know, you're talking, it's a very small subset of lion hunting.

02:09:41.000 It's not the best way to manage their population.

02:09:43.000 Right.

02:09:44.000 Yeah.

02:09:44.000 Well, that's what's bizarre about California is they don't manage their populations with hunters.

02:09:49.000 They bring in mercenaries.

02:09:51.000 Yeah.

02:09:51.000 It's just so crazy.

02:09:52.000 People don't understand.

02:09:53.000 They kill the same amount of lions every year. 1.00

02:09:56.000 It's so foolish. 0.99

02:09:58.000 It's a wild thing. 1.00

02:09:59.000 It seems like such a waste.

02:10:00.000 First of all, let's explain it to people.

02:10:03.000 Because of the Pittman-Robertson Act, there's a certain percentage of...

02:10:08.000 Hunting licenses, ammunition, all that stuff.

02:10:12.000 What percentage of it?

02:10:13.000 Is it 10%?

02:10:14.000 I can't remember what the tax is.

02:10:15.000 It goes to wildlife conservation.

02:10:17.000 It goes to habitat preservation.

02:10:19.000 It goes to taking care of rangers.

02:10:22.000 It's a beautiful situation.

02:10:25.000 It's one of the best situations in terms of the way it's managed.

02:10:29.000 It's really beautiful.

02:10:31.000 If you have a state like California that doesn't allow mountain lion hunting, you go, oh, well, that's good.

02:10:36.000 We need to preserve the mountain lion population.

02:10:38.000 Incorrect.

02:10:39.000 They kill the same amount of mountain lions.

02:10:41.000 They kill them, though, with mercenaries.

02:10:43.000 So they bring in some guy who's a mountain lion hunter, and he uses dogs, and he finds these mountain lions that are troubled mountain lions, and they wind up killing the same number of them.

02:10:53.000 But now the state pays.

02:10:55.000 This guy to go do it, instead of you paying the state.

02:11:00.000 So instead of the Pittman-Robertson Act applying where all this money now, where all these people apply for tags, all these people get tags, they go mountain lion hunting, and all that goes towards conservation.

02:11:12.000 Yeah, so you're talking about the direct tag revenue.

02:11:15.000 And Pittman-Robertson is the tax on like...

02:11:18.000 Guns and ammo.

02:11:20.000 Yeah, guns and stuff like that.

02:11:20.000 But all that stuff.

02:11:21.000 Yeah, all that stuff goes in.

02:11:23.000 And it's crazy.

02:11:25.000 And the thing is, this has come up in this wolf thing in Colorado a ton.

02:11:28.000 Like, I've seen public comment.

02:11:30.000 Public comments, well, we don't...

02:11:33.000 We need to have...

02:11:34.000 If there is ever lethal control, it needs to be done by, like, professionals, right?

02:11:40.000 Hilarious.

02:11:40.000 And it's like...

02:11:41.000 What are you talking about?

02:11:42.000 Yeah, like, who are these professionals?

02:11:43.000 Are you gonna...

02:11:44.000 Yeah, by the way...

02:11:46.000 Are there any?

02:11:47.000 What have they been doing all these years?

02:11:49.000 These pro-wolf hunters where you can't hunt wolves.

02:11:51.000 That's the thing that's so funny.

02:11:53.000 I guarantee you that the guys dealing with lions that are trouble in California...

02:12:01.000 They're hounds guys.

02:12:02.000 They're guys that grew up lion hunting, and they're like, well, I'm just obsessed with this.

02:12:08.000 The only way I can do it is if I'm working for the state or whatever.

02:12:11.000 Yes, I know a guy does it.

02:12:12.000 Yeah, and I'm sure he's just into lion hunting.

02:12:14.000 He's even a hounds guy. 0.99

02:12:15.000 And here's the fucked up part. 0.99

02:12:16.000 There was a recent thing in the Bay Area where they did an analysis of the contents of their stomach. 0.99

02:12:24.000 Yeah.

02:12:24.000 It's 50% domestic pets.

02:12:26.000 Yeah, it doesn't surprise me once they figure it out.

02:12:29.000 Half of their diet is your dog.

02:12:31.000 I talked to, you know, I talked to a guy, well, I talked to a guy's son who was involved in a very long-term study of lions.

02:12:40.000 And he was a houndsman, and he followed like the same toms year after year.

02:12:45.000 Tom's just a male, the term for a male lion.

02:12:48.000 And what they found is that what he found and observed is whatever that lion's mom taught him to kill is usually what they would focus on.

02:12:58.000 Which is wild to think about.

02:13:00.000 And I think some of these, you know, when lions are pushed up against human populations, their moms start to...

02:13:05.000 It's like passed down generationally.

02:13:07.000 Like, we're going to kill pets or whatever.

02:13:09.000 But as it applies to more normal situations, he told me that...

02:13:14.000 That he would follow a tom that they treed and collared, like, year after year, and that tom would only kill bull elk.

02:13:21.000 Like, he would walk through, you know, tons of mule deer and only kill bull elk.

02:13:27.000 Wow.

02:13:28.000 Like, just kill after kill, you know, for years would just be a bull elk and he might, you know, whatever. 0.91

02:13:32.000 And then there'd be weird ones.

02:13:34.000 He said, like, they'd be following lions and they'd find a, you know, a cat that only killed coyotes.

02:13:40.000 Wow.

02:13:41.000 You know?

02:13:41.000 You know, and maybe made some exceptions sometimes, but generally knew how to kill it, and, you know, they'd figure that out.

02:13:48.000 Kind of makes sense, though.

02:13:49.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:13:50.000 Yeah, their mom just shows them the deal.

02:13:52.000 Because, man, their moms... 1.00

02:13:54.000 I mean, I have pictures from outfitting from cameras and stuff like that where you'd see these female lions with two kittens, and if I showed them to you, you're like, dude, that's not...

02:14:05.000 Those aren't baby lions.

02:14:06.000 It's like a pride of mountain lions because they keep them with them.

02:14:10.000 They keep their kittens with them for a couple years sometimes where they're big.

02:14:15.000 Wow.

02:14:15.000 So I think they learn from their mom or whatever.

02:14:18.000 Dude, they're fascinating.

02:14:19.000 They're amazing animals.

02:14:20.000 Freaking cool.

02:14:20.000 I feel the same way I feel about wolves.

02:14:23.000 I'm so glad they exist.

02:14:25.000 Oh, yeah.

02:14:25.000 But I don't want to be surrounded by them.

02:14:27.000 Yeah.

02:14:29.000 Well, and the thing is, I get what a lot of people are going to say about the wolves thing. 0.58

02:14:34.000 They're going to be like, well, Cliff, Joe, you guys are being dicks because really what you want is you just want more animals to hunt and you want to suppress the wolf population because of that. 0.92

02:14:43.000 And yeah, part of it is that. 0.97

02:14:45.000 At least speaking for myself, part of it is...

02:14:47.000 Yeah, every hunter would say that.

02:14:48.000 Yeah, part of it is that.

02:14:49.000 You want more opportunities.

02:14:50.000 But there's the other point too, man, that you said, Joe.

02:14:54.000 If you're being rational about the economics and you assume, like take Colorado, you just assume, hey...

02:15:01.000 This ecosystem, there's a lot of people living here.

02:15:04.000 There's a lot of, you know, other activities that affect the ecosystem.

02:15:07.000 We have to have a rational, you know, economic approach of how we're going to take care of these animals and manage them.

02:15:13.000 The wolf deal, like, I just did the rough math in my brain.

02:15:18.000 And you take a wolf, and a wolf's going to kill 10 to, I think it's like, I think the estimate's like 12 to 18 elk per wolf per year, right?

02:15:27.000 Yeah.

02:15:28.000 And so, I was doing the math, like, your elk hunting in Colorado is basically, the success rate on most of the units is, you know, 10 to 15%.

02:15:37.000 It's fairly low.

02:15:38.000 It's tough hunting, you know, in these, in their, I call them over-the-counter units, and just so your listeners know, that just means you can go buy a tag.

02:15:45.000 You don't have to put in a truck.

02:15:46.000 Yeah, you just go to a sporting goods store.

02:15:48.000 It's not ration, just put in a tag.

02:15:49.000 So anyways, you got 15%, you got 15% success rate.

02:15:54.000 So that means if one wolf, Just what he eats per year, he's going to kill 15 elk, that takes 100 tags that they can't sell, right?

02:16:04.000 Because if you calculate in the success rate.

02:16:08.000 Right.

02:16:08.000 So 100 tags, I mean, I'm guessing roughly, you know, Joe, like the state's getting probably 300 bucks a tag, right?

02:16:17.000 Between like, you know, non-residents pay more than residents, whatever, but it's like 300 bucks a tag.

02:16:21.000 Right.

02:16:21.000 That means that that wolf is eating $30,000 a year worth of CPW revenue.

02:16:29.000 One wolf.

02:16:30.000 One wolf.

02:16:31.000 Yeah.

02:16:32.000 You know.

02:16:32.000 And that is wild, man.

02:16:34.000 It's wild to think about it that way, about revenue.

02:16:36.000 You know.

02:16:37.000 But it's also to think the thing that gets me more than that even is the domestic animals.

02:16:43.000 Right. 1.00

02:16:44.000 Is cattle, sheep, these people that are running livestock, they're fucked. 0.99

02:16:52.000 You're gonna have to deal with a whole new situation. 1.00

02:16:56.000 Yeah, it's going to be a massive pain in their ass. 0.99

02:16:59.000 Now, they are going to get compensated. 0.99

02:17:01.000 They will get compensated to the extent that they can prove it, and there's a whole system that's being worked out.

02:17:08.000 So they'll get compensated for livestock that is killed by wolves.

02:17:12.000 I have a photo.

02:17:14.000 Jamie, see if you can find that photo that I put up on Instagram when I was hunting with my friend Mike Hawkridge and Ben O'Brien up in B.C. Where these wolves...

02:17:28.000 We had found this moose calf right after these wolves had torn it to shreds.

02:17:35.000 Yeah.

02:17:36.000 And it was amazing because there was hair everywhere.

02:17:40.000 Oh, yeah.

02:17:41.000 And that was the thing that I didn't anticipate.

02:17:43.000 I was like, oh, wow.

02:17:44.000 This is weird.

02:17:46.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0.99

02:17:46.000 There's fucking hair everywhere. 0.99

02:17:47.000 I thought you'd just see, like, bones and they would chew the meat off the bones. 1.00

02:17:51.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:17:51.000 I was like, oh, I didn't even think about the hair.

02:17:53.000 They tear, like, tufts of it off.

02:17:55.000 Yeah.

02:17:55.000 Yeah, hell yeah.

02:17:56.000 And it's just like hair scattered everywhere and then these bones that were just stripped down by these wolves.

02:18:04.000 And we had gotten there just very shortly after it had happened.

02:18:08.000 Maybe it happened the morning of or the night before.

02:18:13.000 Yeah, and they just get after it and just clean it. 0.99

02:18:16.000 And they do that every fucking day. 0.99

02:18:18.000 Every day. 1.00

02:18:20.000 They're constantly doing it and they love it.

02:18:22.000 Yeah.

02:18:22.000 And it's exciting.

02:18:23.000 And they're fucking mean to each other, too. 0.98

02:18:25.000 That's the other thing. 0.99

02:18:26.000 All you tree huggers.

02:18:28.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

02:18:28.000 You need to watch what they do to the beta males.

02:18:31.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:18:31.000 They tear them apart.

02:18:33.000 It'd be a rough, rough existence being a guy down the totem pole a little bit in one of those packs.

02:18:38.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:18:39.000 You're starving plus getting your ass kicked every day. 1.00

02:18:42.000 Yeah, they're fucking tearing apart your hamstrings. 1.00

02:18:45.000 Yeah, it's like they're ruthless animals, man. 1.00

02:18:47.000 That's a literal dog-eat-dog world.

02:18:50.000 Survivors, man.

02:18:51.000 But imagine how good they get at it.

02:18:52.000 And, you know, they have all these tactics and stuff.

02:18:55.000 I don't know how much of it's true or proven, but I've been with guys in British Columbia.

02:19:00.000 They say they use the roads.

02:19:02.000 The wolves use the roads to kill moose, you know?

02:19:05.000 Really?

02:19:06.000 Because, you know...

02:19:07.000 You get in areas in British Columbia that used to be real remote, and then they put in logging, and then logging, you know, there's a bunch of logging infrastructure.

02:19:15.000 Yeah, and in the snow...

02:19:16.000 Can't find it?

02:19:16.000 No?

02:19:17.000 Can't find it?

02:19:18.000 I want to say it's from...

02:19:20.000 Ryan, who else were you with?

02:19:22.000 Sorry.

02:19:22.000 Well, it's Mike Hawkridge's outfitting, shout out to Mike, in British Columbia.

02:19:29.000 That was the first time, and actually the only time I ever hunted moose.

02:19:33.000 That's a...

02:19:34.000 Well, that's a cool picture with your... 1.00

02:19:37.000 Eat what you kill.

02:19:38.000 Yeah, I found that picture.

02:19:40.000 I found the moose.

02:19:41.000 Yeah, that's the moose.

02:19:45.000 But there's an image that was on my Instagram of the moose calf that we found just covered in hair. 0.88

02:19:57.000 It's pretty fucking cool.

02:19:58.000 I could probably find it on my phone if we can't find it. 0.91

02:20:02.000 I know what you're talking about, though, where the tufts of hair are all over the place.

02:20:08.000 Everywhere.

02:20:09.000 Until you see it, you're like, oh, this is happening constantly.

02:20:14.000 They're just a cleanup crew, just burning through the forest, trying to find these animals, scanning, scanning, scanning.

02:20:21.000 There's one.

02:20:22.000 Let's move.

02:20:23.000 Circle around them.

02:20:24.000 You guys get in front.

02:20:25.000 We'll get to the sides.

02:20:26.000 Cut them off.

02:20:27.000 Well, that's what I was talking about.

02:20:28.000 And I don't know for sure if this is proven or true or whatever, but the guys say that the tracks are like this.

02:20:33.000 These wolves will get on the logging road, and the main pack will work the logging road because it's easier in the snow.

02:20:40.000 There's no downfall and stuff.

02:20:42.000 So they'll work the road, and then...

02:20:46.000 We're good to go.

02:21:01.000 I wonder how they coordinate that.

02:21:03.000 And I wonder how they pick who does what.

02:21:05.000 Yeah, probably instinct or, you know, I don't know.

02:21:08.000 Because they're dogs.

02:21:10.000 They're not capable of communicating with each other, I suppose.

02:21:13.000 I wonder if they're communicating with pheromones or something.

02:21:16.000 Maybe there's some way that we don't understand or they just...

02:21:19.000 It could be just instincts bred off of doing that so many times.

02:21:24.000 Yeah.

02:21:24.000 It's just an unspoken language.

02:21:26.000 What's crazy is, man, fish do it too.

02:21:28.000 Like you were talking about tarpon.

02:21:29.000 You know, they do the same thing.

02:21:31.000 Like you'll see them, they'll get around mullet and they herd them up, you know, into a bait ball.

02:21:37.000 And I even noticed in like marinas and stuff, they'll herd bait like back in a corner, you know.

02:21:44.000 You see them in marinas, which is crazy.

02:21:47.000 You ever seen the videos of people dunking their hand in the water with a hot dog and a tarpon comes and grabs their arm?

02:21:55.000 They get habituated to feeding.

02:21:56.000 So they'll come to like fillet tables where they're fed or places where they get fed.

02:22:03.000 That's so crazy.

02:22:05.000 Huge tarpon.

02:22:06.000 Oh yeah.

02:22:07.000 Biting people's arms.

02:22:09.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:22:09.000 Pretty wild.

02:22:11.000 It's nuts, man.

02:22:12.000 But they do the same thing, like those tactics.

02:22:14.000 And you know what I've learned to do?

02:22:16.000 I mean, I'm going to sound like a total dork here, but I've gotten really into throwing a cast net to catch bait.

02:22:22.000 Okay, yeah.

02:22:23.000 You know, like this is like, I get infatuated with these things.

02:22:27.000 So me and my little boy, like every morning at sunrise, like we're going to go catch bait to go fishing, you know?

02:22:33.000 So, what you realize is I get up at, I call them like my little glassing points, but they're literally like, I mean, my house is in a country club there, dude, so I'm like cruising down on my golf cart with my cast net. 0.97

02:22:44.000 Like, I'm the only guy in the country club that does this kind of shit, you know?

02:22:48.000 But anyways, we go to my little glass spots where we can look, you know, down the marina, we can look on the ocean for birds or whatever working bait, but a lot of times how we find the bait is you can see the tarpon, like, kind of pushing them around. 0.98

02:23:03.000 Really?

02:23:04.000 Yeah, and then they'll get that bait over on the side somewhere where I can throw a net on it.

02:23:10.000 Yeah.

02:23:11.000 Because if it's out there and it's dispersed, it's hard for me to net it.

02:23:15.000 I went fishing in Mexico once, and I think they were Jack Cravalho.

02:23:21.000 They had this swarm of them that were attacking baitfish, and I'm telling you, it was like half a football field.

02:23:29.000 And you just cast into there, and immediately you catch something.

02:23:32.000 But they had the bait balled up.

02:23:34.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:23:35.000 It was wild.

02:23:36.000 They think they balled the bait up, and they just whack, whack, whack, whack.

02:23:38.000 Yeah, they just whack them. 0.97

02:23:40.000 And you just cast into that chaos.

02:23:42.000 Oh, yeah.

02:23:42.000 And you're pulling fish out.

02:23:44.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:23:45.000 No, it is.

02:23:45.000 It's cool how...

02:23:46.000 I guess I didn't mean to get off track, Joe, but how are they communicating, man?

02:23:52.000 Right.

02:23:52.000 How do they coordinate that?

02:23:54.000 Yeah.

02:23:55.000 You know?

02:23:56.000 But maybe it has to...

02:23:57.000 You see the bait fish do that, too.

02:23:59.000 Like, they're somehow known to turn and everything.

02:24:01.000 Yeah.

02:24:02.000 Well, that's like birds.

02:24:04.000 How are they doing that?

02:24:05.000 We don't really understand how they don't slam into each other.

02:24:08.000 People bump into each other in the street.

02:24:10.000 How do birds flying in the sky?

02:24:14.000 Without any verbal communication.

02:24:17.000 It's amazing.

02:24:18.000 It's so fascinating.

02:24:20.000 What we don't know about nature could fill volumes.

02:24:24.000 Yeah, dude.

02:24:24.000 That's why I have no interest in the metaverse.

02:24:28.000 Well, you're not alone, apparently.

02:24:32.000 Didn't really sell.

02:24:34.000 I thought that was an interesting moment in, you know, technological history.

02:24:39.000 Because, you know, when you got a guy who's as influential as Mark Zuckerberg and with a giant company like Facebook, they literally changed their name to Meta.

02:24:47.000 Yeah.

02:24:49.000 Pump these Oculus headsets out and this is the next level thing.

02:24:54.000 Mark came here and he gave us a demonstration of this stuff.

02:24:58.000 We did some things like we did a fencing game.

02:25:01.000 Oh, they're amazing.

02:25:03.000 Amazing.

02:25:04.000 You know what's the most incredible, dude?

02:25:05.000 It's the boxing game.

02:25:07.000 Okay.

02:25:07.000 Boxing games are so fun.

02:25:09.000 It's a great workout.

02:25:10.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:25:11.000 Because you put the headphones on and, you know, the headset rather, and the headset is wireless, right?

02:25:16.000 So it's just a thing that sets up to your head.

02:25:18.000 And then you have these things in your hand.

02:25:20.000 This is the Oculus.

02:25:21.000 Yeah.

02:25:21.000 So you start the game.

02:25:23.000 And you're in there with a guy, and you hit him, and you see his face snaps back, and he hits you, and you see a white flash.

02:25:32.000 It's crazy.

02:25:32.000 And it's a really good workout.

02:25:34.000 Oh, yeah.

02:25:34.000 It's a really good workout, and you can actually work on your skills.

02:25:38.000 Oh, it applies?

02:25:39.000 Yes!

02:25:39.000 Yeah, okay.

02:25:40.000 I mean, you're not hitting anything, so it's not like hitting a bag or hitting a mitt, but you're bobbing and weaving.

02:25:47.000 You're seeing punches coming your way.

02:25:49.000 You're shifting and then countering.

02:25:52.000 There's all this stuff that you do that is fantastic for cardio.

02:25:56.000 And it's fun.

02:25:58.000 It's like you're playing a game, but we had it at the old studio, and I did a couple of rounds.

02:26:03.000 I'm like, dude, I am exhausted.

02:26:04.000 And more importantly, my feet hurt.

02:26:08.000 It was like my feet were exhausted.

02:26:10.000 Oh, you're like flexing your toes in a weird way.

02:26:14.000 Because we were doing it on concrete, you know?

02:26:16.000 Sure.

02:26:16.000 I was like, this is wild.

02:26:17.000 This is a great workout.

02:26:18.000 Dude, I've played the climbing game.

02:26:21.000 Have you played it?

02:26:22.000 No.

02:26:22.000 Dude, the climbing game, when you fall...

02:26:24.000 So you're doing all these crazy Yosemite climbs or whatever with the thing.

02:26:29.000 My brother has that game.

02:26:31.000 But when you fall...

02:26:31.000 When you fall, it's like...

02:26:34.000 Oh my God. 1.00

02:26:35.000 Fuck that. 1.00

02:26:36.000 You should do it, man. 1.00

02:26:37.000 It'll take your breath away like...

02:26:39.000 Well, they had one that we did where you're walking across a balance beam.

02:26:43.000 Oh, okay.

02:26:43.000 Between two buildings.

02:26:44.000 Probably similar.

02:26:45.000 Yeah.

02:26:46.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:26:47.000 Yeah.

02:26:47.000 I mean, but yeah, the regular wild is way more interesting.

02:26:52.000 Yeah, man.

02:26:53.000 There's just as much adventure out there.

02:26:55.000 But you have to be willing to actually go there, whereas you can just put that headset on and all of a sudden you're on a mountain.

02:27:02.000 I always contemplate this, man.

02:27:05.000 What do you think stops people from doing it?

02:27:09.000 Time, lack of understanding, no mentors, just don't have the opportunity.

02:27:17.000 Sure.

02:27:18.000 I think hunting in particular is like that too, man.

02:27:21.000 The learning curve is...

02:27:23.000 I don't think steep is the right term.

02:27:25.000 It's just intimidating.

02:27:27.000 With all the regulations and all that stuff, it's hard for us.

02:27:30.000 I think it's steep.

02:27:32.000 I think it's steep.

02:27:33.000 And then there's also understanding the wind.

02:27:36.000 Oh, yeah.

02:27:36.000 There's so many things that aren't intuitive.

02:27:41.000 Where do you start in terms of buying glass?

02:27:44.000 Yeah.

02:27:44.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:27:45.000 I mean, how many fucking podcasts are there? 0.98

02:27:48.000 Like, Aaron Snyder has like five of them. 0.99

02:27:50.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:27:50.000 Where you're just breaking down the difference in glass quality and binos, edge-to-edge detection, and like, fuck. 1.00

02:27:56.000 Sure. 0.95

02:27:57.000 Man, dude, in the technology and hunting, in like, just the whole gear component of hunting has grown so much.

02:28:05.000 In a positive way, in a sense...

02:28:07.000 That, you know, gear to go out and do a backpack hunt or something like that in, you know, pretty rough conditions where it's cold at night and all that, it's so much easier now.

02:28:17.000 Yes.

02:28:17.000 There's lightweight tents.

02:28:18.000 Oh, yeah.

02:28:18.000 There's great layers.

02:28:20.000 Like, this stuff's phenomenal.

02:28:21.000 Phenomenal.

02:28:25.000 I guess for some reason this kind of theme has come out in my YouTube channel.

02:28:29.000 I think the whole gear infatuation about it, it intimidates people and it shouldn't.

02:28:36.000 I hate that to be a barrier.

02:28:38.000 You don't need to spend thousands of dollars or more than that to go on your first elk hunt.

02:28:45.000 You know what I mean?

02:28:46.000 You can go do it.

02:28:48.000 It might not be quite as comfortable or whatever, but you don't have to have all this stuff.

02:28:53.000 I think what's one of the most intimidating thing is getting into archery.

02:28:57.000 Oh, yeah.

02:28:58.000 You can't just buy a bow and practice.

02:29:01.000 You have to go get it sized.

02:29:03.000 You have to put the peep in the right place.

02:29:05.000 You have to get arrows that match the bow.

02:29:07.000 You have to get a scale that matches the sight.

02:29:12.000 Like, all of that is crazy.

02:29:14.000 Like, how do you do that on your own?

02:29:15.000 Oh, just run Archer's Advantage software.

02:29:18.000 Like, what?

02:29:18.000 Yeah, what are you talking about?

02:29:19.000 Like, how many grains are your arrows? 0.99

02:29:21.000 I don't fucking know. 0.98

02:29:22.000 Like, imagine the average person just with zero help trying to start a bow. 0.95

02:29:28.000 Yeah, and not everywhere has it.

02:29:30.000 Like, here in Texas, you guys are spoiled because you got good archery shots.

02:29:33.000 Oh, we have a great one in Austin.

02:29:35.000 Shout out to Archery Country. 0.99

02:29:36.000 It's fucking phenomenal. 0.99

02:29:38.000 Like folks in there that know what they're doing? 1.00

02:29:40.000 I used to send my shit up to the Bow Rack. 0.99

02:29:43.000 Oh, okay. 1.00

02:29:44.000 You know, in Oregon.

02:29:46.000 Springfield, Oregon.

02:29:47.000 Yeah.

02:29:47.000 Because it's like such a good place and that's where Cam's from.

02:29:50.000 I was like, well, they'll just send my bow there and they'll send it to me.

02:29:53.000 It was easy.

02:29:54.000 Yeah, and they get you set up.

02:29:55.000 Yeah, or Dudley.

02:29:55.000 I would send it to Dudley and Dudley would take care of stuff.

02:29:58.000 It's like, for the average person, that's not an option, so what do you do?

02:30:03.000 It's like you have to go somewhere.

02:30:04.000 They have to measure your draw length.

02:30:06.000 They have to find out what the peep height is.

02:30:09.000 And then you have to practice.

02:30:11.000 And so you need a place to practice.

02:30:13.000 And a lot of people live in apartments. 0.96

02:30:14.000 So how the fuck am I going to practice? 0.96

02:30:17.000 Where do you go? 0.99

02:30:18.000 There's a lot!

02:30:19.000 A lot!

02:30:20.000 I guess that answers the question, Joe.

02:30:24.000 In a lot of ways, if you get really into it, you almost have to shift your lifestyle.

02:30:29.000 You know what I mean?

02:30:30.000 Well, I most certainly changed my lifestyle.

02:30:33.000 When I got into it, I just decided, like, that was going to be something I'm doing every year.

02:30:38.000 Yeah.

02:30:38.000 So, okay, now I have this new thing that is...

02:30:41.000 But for me, it's an amazing reset.

02:30:45.000 Like, there's...

02:30:46.000 My life is filled with so much...

02:30:49.000 Pressure and stress of a different variety.

02:30:52.000 That's odd.

02:30:53.000 That's the most pressure, the most stress, but it's also the most relaxing.

02:30:57.000 Just being in the woods, no cell phone service, no nothing.

02:31:03.000 Just stalking and just hiking the mountains.

02:31:06.000 And also knowing that I have to be in amazing cardio shape. 0.86

02:31:10.000 When I'm working out in fucking February, I'm literally thinking while I'm working out in February, the more I push, the less tired I'm going to be in September. 0.86

02:31:20.000 Yeah, sure. 0.98

02:31:21.000 Which is crazy.

02:31:22.000 Yeah, that's cool, man.

02:31:24.000 I mean, it's cool when, like, you know, a hobby basically can change somebody's life, you know what I mean?

02:31:30.000 You can obsess with it, and there's other things that do that.

02:31:34.000 I think it enriches your life.

02:31:36.000 I really do, because I think complex...

02:31:40.000 Difficult things that are very rewarding and I don't think I don't think there's very many things that are as rewarding as hunting because you're actually getting food from it and actually feed family and friends and you feed yourself and it's so nutritious and so much better for you than any other kind of food that I think that it's it's one of the most rewarding difficult things and I think the more difficult things that a person does on purpose that are rewarding you know I'm not talking about like life struggle I'm talking like Choosing

02:32:11.000 to do things, whether it's workouts or tasks or problems you're trying to solve on purpose, those are very valuable to your overall resiliency as a person.

02:32:20.000 Right.

02:32:21.000 And I think that that is something that I've really gotten from hunting.

02:32:25.000 Sure.

02:32:25.000 Like, every time you do another one, it becomes easier to take...

02:32:29.000 Yes.

02:32:29.000 And there's lessons that I learn from each individual hunt.

02:32:34.000 You know, there's things like...

02:32:35.000 I went hunting with Ranella a couple months ago, and it was the first time that I'd ever rattled in bucks, which was wild.

02:32:43.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:32:43.000 We were in South Texas.

02:32:44.000 Sure.

02:32:45.000 And literally, we would set up, and he would start, clackety-clack!

02:32:49.000 Clackety-clack!

02:32:50.000 And all of a sudden you hear some sound, and you've got to get the full draw, like right away. 1.00

02:32:54.000 Because these fuckers are just running in. 0.99

02:32:56.000 Yeah, because you're rattling in thick cover. 1.00

02:32:58.000 Yeah, South Texas.

02:33:00.000 Yeah, I got you.

02:33:01.000 Yeah, so it was very exciting.

02:33:04.000 Dude, I've never done it, but I know some folks that have really got into rattling.

02:33:09.000 Oh my god.

02:33:10.000 But more in open country, like, you know, where they can see you a little bit.

02:33:14.000 And you see, like, whitetail coming from, you know, way far away.

02:33:18.000 Yeah.

02:33:18.000 It's crazy how well it works at the right time.

02:33:22.000 Like, when they're down to fuck, it's like it's going down. 0.99

02:33:26.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:33:26.000 Like, you're just catching them when they think that there's a brawl going down over some ladies. 0.99

02:33:32.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:33:32.000 It's like, oh, must be some hot ladies in that area.

02:33:35.000 So they just start running.

02:33:36.000 Isn't it funny?

02:33:37.000 I don't know why this is, but I don't think I'm the anomaly here.

02:33:40.000 Isn't it funny how there's kind of enjoyment in manipulating them?

02:33:45.000 Oh, yeah.

02:33:46.000 Like with elk, it's the same way.

02:33:47.000 Oh, it's the best.

02:33:49.000 I mean, I used to do a fair-minded...

02:33:50.000 That's it.

02:33:51.000 You found it!

02:33:52.000 Oh, yeah.

02:33:52.000 He found it.

02:33:53.000 2014. Oh, okay.

02:33:54.000 Yeah, that makes sense.

02:33:56.000 Took a while to get there.

02:33:57.000 So that was back when I was still rifle hunting.

02:34:01.000 Oh yeah.

02:34:02.000 Look at that.

02:34:02.000 Look at all the hair.

02:34:03.000 All that stuff on the ground is hair.

02:34:05.000 Which for people at home, this is November 11th, 2014. And it was just hair everywhere.

02:34:15.000 And that was a moose calf that they'd got.

02:34:18.000 And they just tear it up.

02:34:19.000 Tear it apart.

02:34:20.000 Look at that.

02:34:21.000 Everything's gone.

02:34:21.000 The tongue's gone.

02:34:22.000 The esophagus is gone.

02:34:24.000 All the organs are gone.

02:34:25.000 The ribcage still stands, but all the organs have been eaten out of it.

02:34:29.000 I mean, all the skin off of all the, you know, the hindquarters is gone except for the lower parts.

02:34:38.000 It's funny, man, because they're kind of a...

02:34:41.000 Shout out to Mike Hawkridge.

02:34:42.000 Yeah.

02:34:43.000 My man.

02:34:45.000 Dogs are, you know, coyotes are kind of like that, too. 0.99

02:34:47.000 They're kind of dirty eaters.

02:34:49.000 But lions, man, they're like tidy, you know, because they don't, you know, they'll store their kills, you know? 0.93

02:34:55.000 It's kind of wild.

02:34:56.000 Have you ever seen a lion kill where one's got it piled up or whatever?

02:34:59.000 No.

02:34:59.000 I'm sure I got some pictures on my phone, but it's pretty neat how they'll cover it up and it'll be tidy and they'll come back and they'll peel it back.

02:35:10.000 I don't think hunting's for everybody, but I think it's for a lot of people.

02:35:15.000 I just think they don't know it.

02:35:18.000 Yeah, dude, I agree.

02:35:19.000 Yeah.

02:35:20.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:35:21.000 Believe me.

02:35:22.000 One of the things about Texas, there's a lot of opportunities for invasive pigs. 0.96

02:35:26.000 And my friend Jesse Griffiths, who is the head chef and owner of Dai Due Restaurant in Texas, he has an organization that trains people, teaches people how to hunt,

02:35:43.000 takes them out hunting, shows them how to hunt, how to butcher the pig.

02:35:49.000 What is it called?

02:35:52.000 New school of traditional cookery.

02:35:54.000 Yeah, this is...

02:35:54.000 Jesse's the best.

02:35:56.000 And Jesse is an amazing chef. 1.00

02:35:58.000 If you're ever in Austin, Dai Due restaurant is the fucking shit. 1.00

02:36:04.000 I love going there. 1.00

02:36:05.000 I go there all the time.

02:36:06.000 Oh, and he has like a little school.

02:36:09.000 Yes.

02:36:09.000 And he's doing it with wild pigs.

02:36:11.000 Yes.

02:36:12.000 Click on that full bore just so you can see some of it.

02:36:14.000 We don't have to play the music, the volume rather.

02:36:18.000 But this is his restaurant and so in the restaurant he's actually prepping some of these wild boars and showing people how to cook it.

02:36:28.000 And he was with us in South Texas, by the way.

02:36:31.000 Okay.

02:36:31.000 So he cooked for us while we were there.

02:36:34.000 He was hunting ducks and he cooked some ducks.

02:36:35.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

02:36:36.000 I saw something on Instagram.

02:36:37.000 Yeah, my Instagram.

02:36:38.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:36:38.000 I put it up on Instagram.

02:36:40.000 So he teaches people how to hunt, how to shoot these animals, where to hit them, the whole deal.

02:36:50.000 He takes them through this whole process.

02:36:53.000 And, you know, he does a very small group of people at a time, shows them how to make sausage.

02:36:59.000 Yeah, he goes through the whole deal.

02:37:01.000 It's amazing.

02:37:01.000 And I'm telling you, man, his cooking is so good.

02:37:04.000 He took diver ducks and made the most delicious shit you've ever had in your life. 0.99

02:37:07.000 Oh, nice. 1.00

02:37:08.000 You know, most people call them diver ducks shit ducks. 0.98

02:37:11.000 Oh, they were so good, though, the way he cooked it. 0.98

02:37:13.000 But as you can see it here, he really knows what he's doing.

02:37:16.000 It was just such a treat to have that guy cook for us while we're down there.

02:37:22.000 It was amazing.

02:37:23.000 Yeah, well, man, and cook and game, it matters so much, right?

02:37:27.000 Oh, yeah.

02:37:28.000 There's so many species that people have told me, like, oh, dude, you can't eat those.

02:37:32.000 And then if the right guy cooks it, he's like, yeah.

02:37:34.000 That's why I'm looking for this javelina chorizo that I'm going to cook tomorrow morning.

02:37:39.000 Well, Cliff, thank you very much for being here, man.

02:37:40.000 I'm glad we did this.

02:37:41.000 I was thinking about doing this for a while, so I'm glad we got together.

02:37:44.000 Dude, I'm forever grateful for having me on, man.

02:37:47.000 Thanks so much.

02:37:48.000 My pleasure.

02:37:48.000 Tell everybody what your Instagram is so they can find you or whatever social media you use.

02:37:52.000 Your YouTube page as well.

02:37:54.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:37:55.000 So, yeah, my...

02:37:56.000 Cliff G-R-Y. It's Cliff Gray, but it's Cliff G-R-Y on Instagram.

02:37:59.000 Yeah, don't ask me why.

02:38:01.000 Why don't you have an A? Because the other Cliff Gray already got me.

02:38:05.000 Oh, okay.

02:38:06.000 So you're Cliff G-R-Y on Instagram. 0.96

02:38:09.000 Yep.

02:38:09.000 And then your YouTube channel is...

02:38:12.000 Oh, you have pursuitwithcliff.com.

02:38:14.000 Yeah, so pursuitwithcliff.com.

02:38:16.000 I got a newsletter and that sort of thing.

02:38:18.000 People can go on that website and sign up.

02:38:20.000 And then my YouTube is just my name, Cliff Gray.

02:38:22.000 All right.

02:38:22.000 And so that's easy to find too.

02:38:24.000 Beautiful.

02:38:25.000 But yeah, I look forward to, you know, follow along.

02:38:28.000 Thanks for having me on, man.

02:38:29.000 My pleasure, brother.

02:38:30.000 Very, very fun.

02:38:31.000 All right.

02:38:31.000 Bye, everybody.

02:38:44.000 Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - March 15, 2023

Joe Rogan Experience #1955 - Cliff Gray

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