Kurt Cobain is a rock god. He s played guitar in Nirvana and Soundgarden, and was a member of the band until he left in the early 90s. He talks about his departure from the band, and how he ended up becoming a soldier. He also tells the story of how he became a soldier, and why he decided to leave the band and become a full time rock and roll soldier. He also talks about how he went from being in a rock band to becoming a full-time soldier. It s a wild story, and one that you don t want to miss! Subscribe to Never Stand Still on Apple Podcasts! Subscribe on iTunes Learn more about your ad choices. If you like what you hear, please HIT SUBSCRIBE and also consider leaving us a five star rating and a review! The opinions stated here are our own, not those of our companies. We do not endorse any of the products or services mentioned in the podcast. We are not affiliated with any of our products, unless stated otherwise. Thank you so much for your support and support our efforts to make quality music streaming services better. We appreciate it greatly. Much appreciate it. - Your support is greatly appreciated and we look forward to hearing back from you. Peace, Love, Blessings, Cheers, Eternally Grateful - Eternally grateful - EJ & Cheers. - Ej & Timestar - P.S. - The EJ - Jon & Brad Jon & Matt - The O.A. - Thank you, Jon and Brad and Matt Cheers - R. & Paul - Mike & Paul - Timest ! - Derek & Paul & Chris - John & Paul, R. . - SONGS: The OJ & Ben - B. & Adam - Paul & Paul Condon - D. & Brad is - P. & Chris C. & Matt, & Matt & Adam, Jr. - Mike & Brad and Paul , - K. & EJ is . . B. & Paul is , etc. , B. is ? & and Ben And so on & , and so on, & so on and so much more! - and so forth Thanks for listening to this episode.
00:02:37.000Yeah, I just I wasn't equipped for it and became more and more unhappy with the situation and then ended up leaving.
00:02:45.000So was it that like when you tried to put creative input in it would get shut down or they weren't interested or Kurt wasn't interested?
00:02:54.000Yeah, so like on the rare time Where we actually rehearsed as a band, which was not a lot, Kurt would kind of half-heartedly, like, hey, who has ideas?
00:03:08.000And, like, I'd throw a couple ideas out.
00:03:10.000And then Chad, like a very accomplished musician in his own right, would throw some ideas out.
00:03:16.000And then it'd just kind of be glossed over and, like, okay, here's the new song I wrote, you know, and start learning that.
00:04:15.000It's like, okay, this was a nice diversion, but I'm going to kind of fulfill this dream I've had since I was a kid of trekking in the Himalayas.
00:04:22.000So I went to Metzger's Maps in Seattle and was buying maps of the Himalaya of Nepal and Tibet and all this stuff.
00:04:30.000Getting gear sorted and that's what I was going to do.
00:04:33.000And then at some point that summer or fall, I can't remember what time of year it was, end of summer, Kim from Soundgarden called me and was like, hey, Hero, their bass player then,
00:04:53.000I was like you know at that point like Soundgarden was my favorite Seattle band like hands down and it was like okay you know fully not believing I'd ever get chosen and then you did yeah and how did that end I got fired What happened?
00:05:13.000It's complicated, but I think at the end of the day, I wasn't getting along with Chris Atwell, the singer.
00:05:22.000And, you know, obviously, you know, who's going to go?
00:05:38.000There's more to the story than that, because there was still, like, I basically, like, getting fired from Soundgarden, like, put me in a pretty bad tailspin.
00:05:53.000I mean, it was a rough patch in my life, for sure.
00:10:20.000On this level of species, you adapt and survive or you die off.
00:10:25.000So I kind of like putting that template on the individual.
00:10:30.000Like you kind of cruise through life and then something fucked up happens and then, you know, hopefully you step up and grow from it, you know, learn from it, all that stuff.
00:10:39.000So you go to New York City, you were there for a few years.
00:10:43.000What were you doing while you were there?
00:10:44.000So initially I worked in a warehouse and it was fine.
00:10:49.000I was paying my rent, living in Alphabet City, having this urban life that I never thought I would have had otherwise.
00:11:26.000The day before, I was doing different kind of work to save money for the move.
00:11:31.000So the day before I flew to New York, I was like, Bucking bales of hay in a hayfield, like farm stuff, right?
00:11:40.000And my buddy Spike, who I'm still good friends with, played in this band called Mind Over Four.
00:11:47.000They picked me up at JFK, and I remember sitting in the van and looking at my Converse, and I still had straw stuck in the Converse from baling hay the day before.
00:12:02.000So you're there for a few years, living that life, and how do you transition into that?
00:12:08.000So, I went back to Seattle at some point during the first year in New York to ship more of my personal belongings over.
00:12:17.000And actually, I went to Sub Pop because they had UPS shipping there.
00:12:22.000And I'm, like, boxing up my stuff in the Sub Pop offices and, like, getting ready to ship it to New York, like, including, like, a Marshall cabinet, like, some music gear, but...
00:12:32.000I had this vague notion of, yeah, maybe I'll play there, but honestly, I probably didn't touch a bass or a guitar for the first year after getting fired from Soundgarden.
00:12:43.000It still kind of had a bad taste in my mouth.
00:12:48.000But what changed that was summer of Ninety-one, maybe?
00:12:56.000I was friends with this band called Skunk.
00:12:59.000They're this indie rock band on Twin Tone Records.
00:13:05.000Matt Sweeney, Matt Quigley, and Matt Coleman.
00:13:08.000So Matt Quigley, the bass player, quit right before a European tour that they had booked, supporting Babes in Toyland, another amazing band.
00:13:19.000And so I get a call from Matt Sweeney, and he's like, hey dude, Quigley quit, we got this tour coming up, do you want to fill in on bass for this tour?
00:13:30.000So I'm like, I could work in this warehouse in New York, like in the sweltering New York summer heat, or I could go to Europe for eight weeks or whatever and tour.
00:15:25.000I started playing with this kind of industrial band on Earache Records called Old Lady Drivers, which is another kind of interesting foray into a genre.
00:15:37.000I was a fan of the grindcore bands for sure, but even this was kind of beyond that because it's a lot of...
00:16:30.000Shelves of vinyl and it was all organized very meticulously Plastic sleeves for for each Jacket it was and he was he was like a student of American music or music in general and he got his knowledge and it's just cool like oh So here's this guy At least on an underground level,
00:16:58.000very well-known, very well-respected, huge in Japan, of course.
00:18:06.000But, you know, there was a couple times where it got to the point where the joy was, like, fully extracted from the process, and it just, it wasn't fulfilling anymore, you know?
00:18:18.000So anyway, I'm back in New York, working in the warehouse, doing my thing, and I get contacted by...
00:18:25.000Have you ever heard of Uniform Choice?
00:18:27.000Like a hardcore band from L.A., from the 80s.
00:18:32.000I get contacted by Pat Dubar, who was, in the 80s, a singer for Uniform Choice, and that was a band I was familiar with from the punk days and everything.
00:18:41.000So he was in this band called Mind Funk, which, first off, like, horrible name.
00:20:03.000And convinced him to come out to New York and join this band that he'd never heard of.
00:20:10.000And it took a lot of convincing to get him to do it, but he did it.
00:20:14.000And so this kind of MindFunk 2.0 with Sean and I... One plus side was like, okay, major label, get put on salary, like don't need a day job anymore,
00:22:00.000Like, he managed Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies, Ministry, I think.
00:22:07.000Like, he was this kind of known quantity in the music world, or at least in the heavy metal world, hard rock world, whatever you want to call it.
00:22:16.000So we had Johnny Z signed to Epic, had the house in Jersey, write in the record.
00:22:26.000Like with the name Mindfunk, which again is like a dumb name.
00:25:28.000It's like a $300,000 recording budget, Terry Data's producer, like, the band's literally homeless, like, we're gonna live at the studio, but it's like, okay, what now?
00:25:40.000So the dude who managed Berardsville, and I can't remember his name, he's this British guy, super sweet, and he's like, he saw we were in a tight spot, and he's like, You know, he's out like a huge lump of money, right?
00:25:56.000Because that studio was booked out for three months.
00:25:59.000That's like a huge, you know, quarter million dollars probably.
00:26:04.000He's like, you guys can stay here and...
00:26:08.000Sort out what you've got to sort out, kind of thing.
00:26:12.000I remember Pat and I were living in one of the cottages on the property.
00:26:16.000It's this very quaint little farmhouse.
00:26:20.000At least, I won't speak for everyone, but I was in a daze.
00:27:20.000And I kind of started obsessing on this macrame koala bear to the point where it's like, if I ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Koala Macrame.
00:27:31.000You know, again, speaking of dumb names.
00:27:34.000But luckily that passed and I came up with a replacement for a daughter's name that was much better.
00:27:44.000So during that week, Johnny Z, our manager, who personally I didn't really like him that much, you know, there was something kind of dodgy about him,
00:28:00.000like in that music business way, that also put a bad taste in my mouth on a lot of levels, just being in that industry.
00:28:11.000But Johnny, you know, as much as I didn't like him, he came through.
00:28:14.000And maybe he was motivated by economic reasons rather than, you know, he's being a stand-up guy or whatever.
00:28:21.000But he signed the band to Megaforce, to his label.
00:28:28.000Put up the money for the recording, to record the record.
00:28:32.000Put us all back on salary so it didn't miss a beat.
00:28:57.000Like all this happened in like a week, 10 days.
00:29:00.000Like everything was back on track, just like new label, new studio in Seattle.
00:29:06.000And so loaded up the gear, flew to Seattle and like probably 10 days later we're doing pre-production demos at Bad Animals and recorded the record and It was done I think by December the mix was done.
00:29:24.000I actually went back to New York and worked in the warehouse for a month to make some extra money.
00:29:30.000And then the band, well not the whole band, but Sean, Pat and I decided to move to San Francisco just for like a change of venue.
00:29:40.000So I think New Year's Day or the day after, I loaded up U-Haul with all our stuff and drove cross-country by myself, which was like a super fun road trip.
00:29:50.000And then we got an apartment in the Mission District in San Francisco, and that's where 1993 was a very transitional year, and that's where things got to the point where it's like,
00:30:05.000okay, I've got to do something different for me personally.
00:30:16.000Even while we're living in the house in New Jersey, during the recording process in Seattle and in San Francisco, Like, taking a lot of drugs.
00:32:23.000There's a couple of the songs on that record were basically nascent Soundgarden songs, you know?
00:32:29.000There were, like, riffs or song ideas I had that, while playing with Soundgarden, like, Chris would hear me playing it, noodling around, and he'd be like, oh, remember that.
00:32:41.000So I had a couple ideas that in a different life would have been on the next Soundgarden record, conceivably.
00:32:48.000So there's a couple of those songs on there.
00:35:22.000And then my father's father was in the Coast Guard and he did a lot of coastal patrolling, Oregon Coast, Washington Coast, Columbia River during the war, just looking for Japanese subs or whatever.
00:35:37.000And so you, because you had this sort of wanderlust that made you want to go trek in the Himalayas, and you had this family that had this background in the military, you were thinking that this would be something that would be adventurous or intriguing to you?
00:37:16.000So that was kind of the initial impetus for, like...
00:37:19.000And then growing up in the woods in western Washington, like, I was expected, you know, I was kicked outside after breakfast and not expected to be seen again until dinnertime.
00:37:30.000And what I did between then was, like, on me.
00:37:32.000And so I'd go out and do stupid stuff, like climb high-tension power lines, you know, to the top.
00:37:43.000But it was like, oh, this is cool, you know?
00:37:46.000And my mother, she definitely facilitated this stuff, like, much to her credit.
00:37:55.000Like, we'd go camping in the Olympic rainforest on the peninsula, and there's like a couple rivers there, but one of the main ones is the Ho River.
00:38:04.000And I had this, as a child, I had like this $20, you know, Kmart inflatable raft with the oars.
00:38:12.000And my mom would drive me upriver like 10 miles or 15 miles or whatever in our Volkswagen bus and like drop me off, me and my $20 Kmart boat in a life vest.
00:38:27.000And she'd be like, alright, see you at the campground.
00:39:31.000I didn't want to fall behind, you know.
00:39:40.000I guess as soon as I figured out what life authorship was or the concept, even though I may not have known the term, yeah, I kind of endeavored to actively author my own life.
00:39:55.000You know, pursuing the ends of making a life that kept me engaged, kept me interested, and was meaningful to me, you know?
00:40:05.000So the military seemed like more and more like a viable option for that next page, that next step.
00:40:15.000So at the time, like 1993, there wasn't a lot of books out about special operations.
00:40:21.000And pretty much the only ones that were out there were like Vietnam dudes.
00:40:25.000So I devoured every, you know, Vietnam War special operations book, whether it was like Lerps, Rangers, SEALs, SF, whatever.
00:40:35.000Had Dick Marchinko written his books yet?
00:40:59.000I think there was one book out about, like, the SOF experience during the first Gulf War.
00:41:04.000And it kind of went over different units and different operations.
00:41:07.000And I think that's the only kind of contemporary one that I was even out.
00:41:12.000But it was like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to do this.
00:41:14.000So while we're in San Francisco, you know, between like dropping acid and taking mushrooms, I was going to the recruiter.
00:41:24.000And like I went to the Navy recruiter first because I actually knew someone who was a SEAL, a former SEAL. And so that seemed intriguing to me.
00:41:35.000I'm like, hey, I want to be a SEAL. And they're like, well, here, take the ASVAB. So the ASVAB is like this IQ test that the military gives you.
00:41:46.000And so I took it and I scored pretty high on it.
00:41:52.000And so they're trying to push me into, like, more technical MOSs, you know?
00:41:57.000And I'm like, but no, that's not what I wanted.
00:42:16.000So I'm like, no, I don't want to do that.
00:42:17.000So basically it came down to they couldn't even promise me a shot at trying out for BUDS, you know, taking the PT test basically.
00:42:29.000And so I didn't know really anything about the military, but I knew enough or I suspected enough that like, okay, I'm not going to sign anything unless I'm like guaranteed a shot.
00:42:42.000And so that's when I started talking to the Armory recruiter, and they could guarantee me.
00:42:48.000So basically they gave me a Ranger contract.
00:42:52.000So Ranger Regiment's interesting in that it's pretty much the only special operations unit in the U.S. military that has privates, like has brand new soldiers.
00:43:03.000Pretty much every other unit, it's all NCOs.
00:43:07.000So that's kind of your entry-level soft unit in the U.S. military is Ranger Regiment.
00:44:29.000But, you know, sucked it up, went through it.
00:44:34.000After what they call AIT, like advanced individual training, which for me was infantry, you go through the infantry MOS training, go to airborne school, and then go to selection for regiment.
00:44:49.000So what was the physical aspect of it like?
00:44:53.000Because it seemed like you're just partying and living life like a rock star before that.
00:44:58.000You're just doing heroin and all this stuff.
00:45:00.000And then all of a sudden, you're involved in something that's very physically grueling.
00:48:35.000It was like a four-year enlistment, I think.
00:48:38.000And then I got out because it was like, In a way, I kind of thought I achieved what I aimed to achieve by going in the military, and there definitely wasn't a war on the horizon, at least one that anyone could see.
00:48:57.000So I had a break in service for a couple years, and I kind of fucked off.
00:52:41.000But a lot had happened personally in those two years.
00:52:44.000So I'm back in the Army, doing the Special Forces qualification course, which for my MOS, like the 18 Bravo Special Forces Weapons Sergeant, was like about a year and a half.
00:52:58.000So it was the first day of language school, which was six months long, was 9-11.
00:53:10.000What was it like being in the military when 9-11 went down?
00:53:15.000It was, like, I think everyone there, so we're, there's a group of us in this building at Fort Bragg called the SOAV, the Special Operations Academic Facility, and we're, you know, standing around the beginning of the day,
00:53:31.000like, drinking coffee, getting ready to go to class.
00:54:33.000So you basically go, your team goes and trains with a foreign special operations unit and you teach them stuff or you, you know.
00:54:42.000And it's more just to, like, establish rapport and maybe get some access or whatever.
00:54:47.000So do a couple JSETs in Asia and then get ready to go to Iraq to prep for the invasion, like in 2002. And, like, spend a lot of time in Kuwait just, like, training and preparing.
00:55:07.000So, that was my first combat experience.
00:55:16.000It was unique in that my team and a couple other teams are basically attached to 4th ID to provide route reconnaissance and screening and stuff for this main conventional military invasion.
00:55:37.000And so watching Big Army work, you know, do what they do best was pretty amazing.
00:55:43.000Like tank engagements, like I never thought I'd witness that.
00:55:49.000It was just almost like a, and it's probably a trite cliche, but like a movie, you know?
00:55:59.000Watching this massive mechanized force just like crush everything in its path.
00:56:49.000So it did some rotations in Afghanistan following the Iraq invasion.
00:56:56.000And it was kind of the more traditional like SF mission, like working with indigenous troops and leading them on raids and things like that.
00:57:07.000That's gotta be a wild change of life to go from being a musician to go from being a deployed special operator in Afghanistan.
00:57:19.000Like, the shift in consciousness is so extreme.
00:57:44.000I think the war and combat was the most profound experience of my life, for sure.
00:57:49.000And I don't mean to maybe treat it lightly, because I don't take it lightly.
00:57:55.000Yeah, it's by far the most profound experience of my life.
00:57:59.000So many guys who come back from that, not only do they say it's the most profound experience of their life, but many of them say it was the best experience of their life.
00:58:32.000I never had a doubt that maybe I would get injured or killed, but I never had a doubt that the mission would fail.
00:58:41.000Just because the odds were just in our favor.
00:58:43.000You've got night vision, you've got a cast stack, you've got this huge support apparatus.
00:58:50.000There's no way we're not going to win this fight.
00:58:53.000But going on target, closing with destroying the enemy, and then getting you and all your dudes back to base alive, best feeling in the world.
01:00:25.000Through war, through combat, we kind of tap into that primal, okay, this is what we're supposed to do, you know?
01:00:34.000Was that surprising to have that part of your mind sort of ignited in a sense where you realize that this is like something that's deeply embedded in your DNA? Yeah, I mean, I know I'm making that claim, but it's not based on,
01:01:41.000I did a paper when I was doing my undergrad.
01:01:45.000I think I was trying to investigate genetic impetus for human conflict or whatever.
01:01:54.000During my research, one of the things I found that was super interesting to me was the way psychologically we're equipped to deal with about 100 to 120 individuals.
01:02:07.000That would be our extended tribe, our social group.
01:03:01.000An interesting correlation I made researching this paper was that that number is the same number in army task organization as an infantry company is 120. And that's kind of like your main operational unit in the infantry,
01:03:29.000And is that by design, or is that just the way it worked out?
01:03:32.000It probably goes back to our tribal roots, most likely, that we evolved being accustomed to that group of people, that number of people, or a similar number.
01:03:45.000Our mission statement is biological organisms, even the big brain monkeys that we are, survive and replicate the gene.
01:03:57.000Everything else is kind of window dressing.
01:04:00.000You can window dress it however you want to make it seem more important than that.
01:04:09.000I'm a huge fan of the window dressing.
01:04:12.000That's definitely the salt in the soup, for sure.
01:04:15.000But if you boil it down to what is the quiddity of being a human being, or any biological organism, survive and replicate the gene.
01:04:27.000And so the whole capacity for combat, for human warfare, is like, even as an individual, if you're killed in combat, if you go back to, like, this group of hominids on the savannah,
01:04:44.000you're probably related to everyone in your group.
01:04:47.000So it's like, okay, maybe I won't pass my genes on, but my cousin over here will.
01:05:37.000And to me, that's always what's been, I think, the most interesting paradox about war and combat.
01:05:45.000It's this event, this human event, that simultaneously brings about acts of pure, selfless love and brutality without quarter in the same instant.
01:06:04.000Well, it's always fascinating for me to talk to people that are intelligent, like yourself, that have experienced that.
01:06:10.000Because that thread that you're expressing, it seems to ring true with almost all of them.
01:06:19.000That there's something about it that, although brutal and Maybe in some ways unexpected, it also rings true with like a purpose and that your life is intimately connected to these people and in some way that becomes more satisfying than any other way to live.
01:06:45.000Yeah, and to hear a person like yourself, who's obviously very smart, express that, it's really interesting to someone like myself who hasn't experienced that, but kind of understands what you're saying.
01:07:07.000And you're aware of this while you're experiencing it because you're obviously an analytical person.
01:07:12.000So you're aware of this while you're experiencing it.
01:07:17.000So I can think of instances where I've had these flashes of awareness like Okay, I remember one target we halved in, like a helicopter assault force.
01:07:34.000So I was on the second 47. No, I think I was on the second lift.
01:07:41.000Like, it was a pretty big element going in.
01:07:44.000And I remember landing in this poppy field, like, stepping off the ramp, and, like, I could hear gunfire.
01:07:51.000Like, it was already on, right, on target.
01:07:55.000And so I got my little Afghan commando troopers.
01:08:33.000And I don't know which supervenes on what, but yeah, for sure.
01:08:38.000How bizarre was it, the whole poppy fields thing?
01:08:41.000Because I remember one of the most interesting aspects of the war was that we were protecting poppy fields.
01:08:49.000And there was this weird video, I don't know if you've ever seen it, of Geraldo Rivera Who was on Fox News, spinning this in some sort of a way, but realizing how ridiculous it sounded while he was interviewing a general who was on the field,
01:09:06.000or I don't remember if it was a general soldier who was on the field who was explaining why they were doing this.
01:09:30.000Somewhere, someone was profiting off of this to the tune of billions of dollars.
01:09:35.000And you're not exactly sure how or how it was being done or what involvement the United States military had in it.
01:09:42.000But in this particular instance, you're living in the era of social media and the Internet.
01:09:48.000Not necessarily social media, but at least the internet, where people are very aware of things like that that are at the very least inconsistent with the narrative that we have here in America, that drugs are bad, bad people sell drugs,
01:10:04.000bad people make drugs, we have to stop the drugs from getting into the country.
01:10:07.000Now here you are, you know, we're watching Geraldo Rivera, a Fox reporter, putting this like really clunky spin Why we have to do this and I can only imagine it's because it had already been exposed that the United States was doing that and they had to say well We have to come up with some sort of an excuse for why we're guarding heroin production So I guess my understanding of if the U.S.
01:10:37.000mill was doing that is probably like a secondary consideration.
01:10:41.000Because at least down south, that's a huge part of the economy.
01:11:28.000That's what's so strange is that it seems like, you know, especially when you have this disconnection from the mainstream media and from, you know, channels of information getting to other people.
01:11:44.000That this is a part of what's happening over there.
01:11:47.000I believe at one point in time it was 90 plus percent of the world's heroin was coming from Afghanistan.
01:12:19.000I mean like in my experience, like if we did hit a target that was like in a remote place like that, like they weren't seeing coalition forces.
01:12:34.000Often, if at all, you know, it's kind of like they probably thought they're on a safe haven.
01:12:39.000So, I mean, I think when you get closer to the built up areas and at least at the time, I mean, like the whole Afghan government was so corrupt anyway.
01:12:51.000So I think probably the main people making money were, you know, Afghan generals, you know, which I think at one time the Afghan army had like 3000 general officers or something.
01:13:03.000Like, this inverted pyramid of leadership.
01:13:25.000I think you just gotta focus on the tribe, right?
01:13:30.000It's like you and your dudes and you have this task and you're going to accomplish it to the best of your ability and bring everyone back alive.
01:13:39.000And then the political side of it, I mean, yeah, it'd be easy to get kind of demoralized.
01:13:56.000I mean, I think I was conscious of that, but it wasn't that crazy.
01:14:04.000So even though you knew that there was rampant corruption and that there was a lot of things that were kind of fucked, it was still your tribe, your task?
01:16:34.000How bizarre was that, though, to go over there and experience this completely different way of life with other human beings living on another part of the world, a completely different set of values, different goals and expectations, different religion.
01:17:20.000There was a whole, I never got to this town, but up on the Oxus River, there's been several attempts over the decades to do an archaeological excavation of the entire city.
01:17:34.000But it's like, it's a no-shit Greek city in Central Asia.
01:18:30.000Maintain a foothold in that part of the world, like build a city, establish like a Greek education system to educate the locals in the Greek model.
01:18:42.000So he was kind of projecting, you know, he was in it for the long game.
01:18:48.000Like this is part of Greece, it's going to be Greek.
01:18:51.000And the Greco-Bactrian Empire, if you want to call it that, probably lasted like a hundred years and then it just fell apart.
01:19:00.000Is there documentation of the Greek cities, the ruins in Afghanistan?
01:22:35.000The rise and fall of these empires and these civilizations and for you to go and visit it in the middle of combat must have been particularly bizarre.
01:22:47.000Yeah, I would try to do my share of, for lack of a better term, tourism.
01:22:58.000I went to the old Citadel outside of Kandahar, where right now, when you're on the ground, it doesn't look like anything.
01:23:07.000But if you go to Google Earth, you can see the old outline of the city walls, and you can see the Citadel in the middle.
01:23:14.000And it's like, it's still there, the remains of it.
01:23:21.000Like, up in Nuristan, which is a super interesting part of Afghanistan, it's like the northeast part of the country, and it's a region that wasn't even converted to Islam until the end of the 19th century.
01:23:38.000Like, it's, you can make the analogy of, they're like the Basque in Spain, right?
01:23:43.000It was like this mountainous region that kind of was able to retain, like, its cultural and linguistic identity because of the terrain.
01:24:23.000Like, if they could ever have peace there, they could have, like, a trekking industry, you know, ecotourism, whatever, like, White River rafting down the Kunar River.
01:24:55.000The history of Afghanistan is so fascinating and so spectacular and so like the futility of trying to conquer that place and control that place.
01:25:08.000It's going to be what it's going to be.
01:25:30.000Like, if you would have told me September 10th, 2001, like, oh yeah, we're getting ready to be in a 20-year war in the Middle East and Central Asia, I would have been like, no fucking way.
01:26:55.000There's no place like it on Earth in that regard.
01:26:59.000It's like because of the terrain, because of the people and the religion and just the way it's controlled, areas are controlled by warlords.
01:28:58.000You know, there was some really bizarre moments after we pulled out of Afghanistan where they were interviewing the Taliban and talking to them about women being in control or women, you know, being in government and whether or not they were going to accept sort of this Western idea of diversity and inclusion and they were just fucking laughing.
01:30:24.000But again, you're there to do a job, so you can't dwell on the negative, you know?
01:30:32.000And it's like, you need to believe in the mission, you know?
01:30:38.000And I believed in the mission as far as like, Myself and my teammates, like, we're gonna do what we have to do and do it to the best of our ability and everyone come home alive, you know?
01:31:02.000So I left the Army the second time, like, 2007, when I basically went back to school.
01:31:12.000What was it like to make that transition from being over there in one of the most bizarre wars we've ever been a part of and then going back to school, going back to civilized society, going back to Western culture?
01:31:30.000Again, I think just my disposition, I tend to just go with things.
01:32:52.000I've had conversations with Special Forces guys where they explain to me the reason why less of them experience the kind of PTSD that some of the other guys had.
01:33:05.000And they said because we were proactive.
01:34:00.000And so almost as a joke, I applied to Columbia and I applied to Seattle University as well.
01:34:07.000Only two schools I applied to and ended up getting accepted to both.
01:34:13.000And so with the Columbia thing, it was like, okay, am I going to step up to the challenge or, you know...
01:34:26.000Go, I mean, not necessarily the easier route, but maybe the more comfortable route, which would have been Seattle U. And I went for Columbia.
01:38:21.000He returns to Los Angeles, circumnavigation complete.
01:38:27.000And I'm, like, super cynical, like, going, okay, what happened now, you know?
01:38:32.000And I'm like, I bet that marriage didn't last, you know?
01:38:34.000Because after something, I guess I equated it to, like, a war zone romance or something, you know, where you're kind of in this super heightened environment.
01:38:44.000So if you bring it back to just normal life, like, does it survive?
01:38:49.000Like, what made it interesting or exciting or whatever, you know?
01:38:54.000Do you kind of get back to reality and it's like, Eh, you know, you're not that interesting or whatever.
01:39:04.000Like, pfft, that marriage isn't at last, whatever.
01:39:07.000But then I started doing some internet research on Robin Graham, and it turns out he wrote, like, a second book called The Sailor Returns from the Sea or something like that.
01:40:15.000And so he and Patty loaded up, like bought like a mail truck I think, loaded up all their stuff and went to Montana and homesteaded in Montana.
01:40:25.000Like super old school, like 19th century homestead.
01:44:31.000It's like you and the boat and the sea and the wind and, you know, you got to make it work.
01:44:40.000And there's something like really like...
01:44:46.000When you actually get out on the water and you've got the sails up and you're on a good tack and the boat's doing its thing, it's an awesome feeling.
01:44:55.000I'm not going to quite say it's primal because obviously hominids on the savannah didn't have sailboats, but it's close to that.
01:46:05.000In the support of, in the service of trying to be good at something, I've always focused on the fundamentals and trying to master them and hopefully just have a good foundation.
01:46:15.000I mean, that's one thing that was, like, unique about growing up as, like, a soldier in Ranger Battalion.
01:46:22.000Because Ranger Battalion is, like, super, like, regiment's a unique animal.
01:46:27.000Like, even within the military, even within the SOF community, it's its own thing, culturally.
01:46:35.000And they always stress the fundamentals.
01:46:39.000And, you know, it's like being a private in Ranger Regiment is, it's not easy.
01:46:48.000But the fact that it's hard, I would think makes you a better soldier.
01:46:56.000Because there's no, there's like NCOs in Ranger Regiment don't, They don't tolerate anything less than 100%.
01:47:08.000If you bring anything less than 100%, you're going to find out really quick.
01:47:20.000I think having that foundation as a Ranger private, I mean, I'm not going to say I'm any kind of amazing soldier, but I think it made me the best soldier that I could be, for sure.
01:47:34.000And I'll always look back at regiment as being a very key event in my life, like my time there.
01:47:42.000Well, I think that any particularly difficult endeavor strengthens your resolve in basically everything you do in life.
01:47:50.000And when you're forced to do something that's very, very hard to do, it just changes who you are at a foundational level.
01:48:01.000Yeah, I think it's that punctuated equilibrium that I referenced earlier.
01:48:05.000It's like you need that traumatic event to be a catalyst for growth.
01:49:35.000So it's this adventure race, kind of a quirky adventure race that's based back home where I live.
01:49:44.000And it's a boat race from Port Townsend, Washington to Ketchikan, Alaska.
01:49:51.000And there's really only one cardinal rule, and there's a lot of other rules, but they pretty much deal with safety at sea and things like that.
01:50:00.000But kind of the one cardinal rule of the race is no motor.
01:50:06.000The vessel has to be either wind-powered, human-powered, but no internal combustion or electric engines.
01:50:41.000There's pretty big tides up there, like a 12-foot tide in that part of the country is normal.
01:50:48.000And so you get these big tides and constrained waterways and they turn into rivers.
01:50:53.000So if you don't hit the current right, hit the tide right, you're going to have to anchor up somewhere and just wait for the tide to change.
01:52:01.000So right now everything's going okay, like trying to raise money, like set up a GoFundMe page through the Super Nautiloid site in order to fill the gaps, you know, financially, because it is a pretty big project.
01:52:17.000I've been doing most of the work myself so far.
01:52:20.000But yeah, the team of four, it's me, two other veterans, one friend from Ranger Battalion, one friend from SF, and then I got a buddy from the Seattle Rock Days, Barrett Martin, who was the drummer for the Screaming Trees,
01:52:36.000and he's played in a few other bands, and he's actually a Grammy award-winning producer.
01:55:59.000Seeing a little person and engaging with them and having them grow with you and learning about life, in a lot of ways it gives you a chance to do it the right way.
01:56:11.000You think about what's happened to you and you learn from that.
01:56:16.000You learn from your mistakes in raising them and you learn how to communicate with little people who are just growing and learning.
01:57:37.000He's always been 70. And then you have children and raise children and see them grow from the time they're a little baby to a person who's having a conversation with you that you go to dinner with, you go to the movies with.
01:57:53.000And you know all their life experiences and the good ones and the bad ones and it's just...
01:58:24.000I have friends with horrible parents Battle to deal with these motherfuckers that raised you.
01:58:49.000It's like a constant thing in their life that they never quite get past.
01:58:55.000And I was very fortunate that my mom, when she married my stepdad, they're very close.
01:59:01.000And they've been close most of my life.
01:59:04.000So I've experienced bad and then I've also experienced like what it's like when a relationship works and when people are kind to each other and get along together and it's like so you realize like there's adjustments that everyone can make in this life to make the path smoother to make it more just you know more harmonious but It
01:59:35.000really changed how I think about humans.
01:59:37.000Not just like my humans, but all humans.
02:00:20.000It's very obvious, but it's also they're very kind, too, which is very—that makes me very proud.
02:00:26.000And it's very nice to be able to raise children in an environment where when they get older, you see them expressing the values that you appreciate and you think are important.
02:00:41.000Yeah, I could see, and I thought about it before.
02:01:00.000But, you know, in our modern Western world, when people prepare for their life, they prepare for what society has established as the path that is the most celebrated, Something not just that you would be proud of,
02:01:45.000And that's It's so hard when you're in the middle of it and you're thinking so much about how other people view you.
02:01:54.000And for a lot of people, for whatever reason, they grew up in a way that they didn't get the respect that they deserved or they were taught that the only way to get respect or the only way to be appreciated or not feel like a failure Is to be financially successful.
02:02:11.000But some of the biggest failures that I know are financially successful.
02:02:14.000Some of the biggest messes of a life that I know are people that on paper are winners.
02:03:00.000And you don't realize that it's gonna fucking end man, and you don't realize that I think sometimes until someone close to you does die and then you go, oh This is so temporary and I'm not enjoying this process at all and One of the things that I'm getting out of talking to you is that you have sought out these These difficult but educational experiences.
02:03:25.000And that's what makes someone fascinating.
02:03:28.000That's what makes someone cool to talk to.
02:03:30.000You know, the path of the most boring people to talk to are the people that are just thinking about making money.
02:04:47.000But I think the internal validation, at least for me, were, like, basically, and I don't mean this, like, in a malignant way, but, like, when you kind of stop caring what other people think about you and focus more on what you think about yourself,
02:05:08.000like, for me, that was, like, a huge shift.
02:05:53.000When you see this person's an exceptional person and they enjoy being with you, you're like, oh, maybe I'm okay.
02:05:59.000I mean, there's actually a couple things I'd like to go back to, like, what you were talking about.
02:06:04.000And one was, like, in reference to parents, like, I don't—maybe I'll view them as babies now.
02:06:14.000But, like, as soon as I—you know, it was probably my late 20s where I started, like, viewing them as human beings and, like, imperfect creatures like we all are.
02:06:24.000And, like, all of a sudden I had all this empathy for them.
02:07:11.000Just the empathy for others, working on yourself.
02:07:16.000There's an Evel Knievel quote, and I'm going to have to paraphrase because I can't remember it exactly, but he's like, You know, when I was young, I cared about what other people thought, but now that I'm old, I just care about what I think.
02:07:41.000And again, going back to another thing you were talking about, it's like the most important thing in my life these days is You know, our personal relationships.
02:08:22.000Yeah, you have to be very careful about that because I know so many people that have been involved in friendships and relationships with people that...
02:08:30.000Are just disastrous and it's like a drowning person.
02:08:33.000You try to help them and you drown too.
02:08:36.000Some people just will fucking drag you in and other people, they'll elevate you.
02:08:50.000But through even mistakes and then the reconciling of those mistakes and the communication through that, it's an educational experience for everybody involved.
02:09:01.000And everyone's sort of on the same sort of path in the sense where you're trying to be a better version of who you are.
02:09:11.000And, you know, that might be being a better parent or being a better friend or being a better artist or whatever it is you're trying to do.
02:09:20.000But it really benefits you to be around other people that are also trying to do that thing, too.
02:09:27.000Because, you know, one of the beautiful things for me about having this podcast is being able to communicate with so many interesting people and being able to have these conversations like we're having right now where I get to, you know, I just met you today, you know, but get a sense of your journey and your life.
02:09:44.000And I think about it through your eyes and through your perspective.
02:11:40.000Whether it's a physical imbalance or a life imbalance or a trauma that they can't get over.
02:11:46.000But my friends that I know that have had those dark moments in their life, when their life turned around, now they're in a great relationship.
02:12:33.000Like sometimes it's just you got to get through that and come out on the other side and figure out what is the process of becoming a more fulfilled person?
02:12:42.000What's the process of living a harmonious life?
02:12:48.000And I think we get A lot of the answers to that from talking to people and from listening to people talk about it and then from trying things and learning and growing and That's something we're not that's not the sound of pop up like a public narrative.
02:13:04.000It's not something that's being discussed It's not something that's drilled in the kids heads like you you're gonna go through some shit, but you got a trust in this process and you got to have a You have to have guidelines in your mind of what you want to do.
02:14:14.000Being, you know, endeavoring to be the best that you can be, whatever that is, and it's not talking about vocation or external stuff, but you as a person, like figuring out, I mean, everything we've been talking about, like figuring out what brings you joy, applying yourself,
02:14:33.000It's like, if it were easy, and I've had this discussion with other friends who are, you know, about human flourishing and stuff, and like, And this is going to sound a little bit negative, but I think there's a lot of people who can't be bothered, you know, who are fully capable of flourishing if they applied themselves.
02:15:12.000That's very unserving for them, whether it's a system of getting an education, then you have student debt, student loan debt, and then so you have to get a job, and then you get a job that pays well because you have to pay off that debt, and then you buy a house, so now you have a mortgage and you have a family,
02:15:27.000so now you have responsibilities and you have all these things.
02:15:30.000But most of your day is spent doing something you absolutely don't want to do, but is also not rewarding.
02:15:38.000There's a lot of things you don't want to do, but when you do them, you're like, God damn, I'm glad.
02:16:02.000That is satisfying and something that elevates you.
02:16:08.000Something that with these experiences you gain insight as to why you think and what you think and what is good about these experiences with other human beings.
02:16:20.000And if you don't, you just become this Fever-minded capitalist where you just are constantly chasing numbers because it's rewarded by society.
02:16:33.000That external validation that you get from driving a Mercedes.
02:16:37.000That thing that you get from having a nice house where people drive by and go, look at that guy's house.
02:19:37.000You know keeping that fucking game going that thing that's gotten you all that those accolades a thing that's gotten you all those that respect and it's just numbers dopamine hits like It's like checking your social media forever to the end of time checking the likes on your fucking Instagram post to the end of time.
02:19:57.000It's like it's empty and That's the path that so many people are on.
02:20:01.000You know, I just don't understand it I'll never understand it, but I get it You know, I get how you get sucked into that path.
02:20:10.000Yeah, I totally understand the mechanism.
02:20:14.000And it's just like it's like it hijacks the human reward systems of you being like the leader of the tribe.
02:20:20.000But the leader of the tribe used to be the wise old warrior who had made the mistakes and proven his character and his metal and combat and life and And had wisdom to impart on the others and could lead the tribe in a way that it could help these people and protect them.
02:21:28.000But you have to know what it is and it's not being taught.
02:21:33.000Think about the things that are being taught.
02:21:35.000Perhaps they teach it a little bit in philosophy, but most of the time, if you're trying to get an education, you try to get an education to get a job.
02:21:44.000I mean, that's the way it's geared towards now.
02:21:48.000It's not like the ancient Greeks where education was like, here's how you live a good and virtuous life.
02:21:55.000Yeah, but the people that I've talked to that are the most boring are the ones that are just pursuing money.
02:22:00.000The people that I've talked to that are the most fascinating are the ones that are trying to figure it out.
02:22:04.000And they've accumulated a lot of lessons and a lot of information and they can talk about things and And I can get something out of that conversation.
02:22:12.000Like I can go, oh, I see how this guy thinks.
02:24:03.000It's like, you know, it's like, I mean, I guess it kind of sucks that like whoever, like the bean counters at the label are like, fuck that guy, you know, but okay.
02:26:01.000It's hard to get to know people because everybody's approaching you in a very alien way.
02:26:07.000That was when I was young and obviously not on that huge level, but that was kind of When I got fired from Soundgarden, that was kind of part of the crisis where I was like...
02:26:20.000It was easy to put on the identity of, like, being the bass player for Soundgarden.
02:26:45.000When I did have that taken away, and it did knock me for a loop for a bit, but it also helped me recognize, like, oh, I should just focus on Jason the dude, you know, not Jason the bass player for Soundgarden.
02:27:03.000And that was kind of the slap in the face that kind of brought me around.
02:28:59.000Jim can, like something can happen in the news today and Jim can go on stage and do like 10 minutes on it and just rant and rave and he's such a fucking cartoonish character.
02:30:38.000So, like, maybe if, like, enough people kick in, like, five or ten bucks, we actually pay Tad to do a documentary because he's a professional.
02:31:48.000I wrote a book proposal, actually wrote the proposal when I was in Buenos Aires.
02:31:54.000And I remember I was sitting in this cafe in Buenos Aires, so it's like wintertime down there.
02:31:59.000And it's pouring down rain, and there's like water leaking from the roof, and there's pots and pans around the cafe, like catching the rainwater.
02:32:06.000And on my laptop, and I remember finishing the proposal, and it's like, cool, when I get back to the States, I'll meet with the agent, and, you know, and, like, there were so many parallels.
02:32:19.000I'm sure you've been in that world, too, with the literary world, like the business side of it.
02:32:28.000So he, this agent's promising me the world, you know, like the classic like music biz thing, like, you know, you boys are going to be bigger than Led Zepp, you know, kind of thing.
02:33:21.000And it's like, you know, I'm not Hemingway, but I think I can put some sentences together, um, according to other people who told me that, who know these things.
02:33:31.000And, uh, So basically, I got accepted to grad school, and I got a Tillman scholarship that paid for grad school.
02:33:40.000And it's like, okay, I'm going to grad school, and put the book on the back burner.