In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, we're joined by the man behind the incredible new documentary 'Chimp Empire' about the lives of the Ngogo Chimpanzee group in Africa. We talk about how a team of scientists and a film crew were able to get embedded with the group, and what it was like to film them in their natural habitat in the rainforests of Ngogo, Africa. We also talk about what it's like to be in the chimpanzee group and how they interact with each other and other animals, and the challenges they face in order to maintain a healthy relationship with other primates. And, as always, thank you for listening to the J.R.J.P. Podcast! Cheers, Joe and Rory - The Joe Rogans Experience is a podcast by day, all day. - by night, all night. Check it out! The J. R. Rogan Podcast by Night, by night all day! - by day it's the J-Rod Podcast by night it's The J-Rogan Experience by day! - By night, it's all day all night! - By day, it s: The Chimp Experience by Night It's the Chimp Empire by Night it's: The Journey by Day, All Day It's The Journey By Night, By Night All Day, by Night - By Night It s: A 4 part series chronicling the lives and experiences of a group of chimpanzees in Africa's largest chimpanzee colony. , The Ngogo Chimp - a four part documentary chronicling their lives and their relationship with humans, The Chimpem series. by the scientists and their daily life and their interactions with humans. In this episode, we take a deep dive into what it means to be part of the group and the relationship between humans and chimps and other primates . This is an incredible piece of work, and it's a must-listen to be seen and listen to! by a man who has done it. and listen in on what they do to make sure you get the most out of their day to day life in the most amazing place in the savannah by being there by watching them do their best to make the most of what they can do the most they can the most important thing they have to do and how to be the best they can be
00:01:00.000Basically, there's a scientific project out there that's been working at Ngogo for almost 30 years now.
00:01:08.000So scientists, when they first arrived, the chimpanzees were not habituated to humans at all.
00:01:15.000So they kind of came knowing there was a big group of chimps out there, but they didn't know anything about how many there were or who they were.
00:01:23.000And they had to go through this process of habituation, which basically means sort of following them around and getting them used to humans observing them.
00:02:47.000It's like a chimp was carrying around a camera.
00:02:52.000Was there any moment where they interacted with you guys where you thought maybe you were threatened or in danger?
00:03:01.000You know, if you're filming lines or something from a sort of safari vehicle, you film them with a long lens and you're kind of spying on them from a distance.
00:03:13.000So they might sort of clock that you're in a car from a long way away, but you're observing them and you're kind of not part of it.
00:03:55.000But then they go about their daily business and it's incredible how little interaction they have and how little that they sort of ever even come close to interacting with you.
00:04:20.000The scientists for years have sort of made sure that, you know, the strict rules that you can't take – you take food in, but it's in concealed containers.
00:04:32.000That's exactly the sort of thing that could cause a situation if there was some association with food or something that you had that they wanted.
00:04:41.000So that's really carefully managed and they don't associate you with food and they just treat you as a sort of passive observer.
00:04:53.000Having said that, you know, you're right in there and, you know, they could be just sitting around peacefully sort of playing or grooming each other or they could be doing something quite aggressive and they could be fighting or they could be patrolling for another group or hunting.
00:05:09.000And then, even though none of it is sort of targeted at you, they are behaving in a way that can be quite intimidating around you.
00:05:21.000I think the most disturbing thing to me with chimps is, well, there's two things.
00:06:55.000You know, if you're interested in chimps or you spend time around them...
00:06:59.000You're constantly making connections between you and them.
00:07:03.000So you're feeling, even though it's kind of a one-way thing, you're feeling those similarities all the time.
00:07:11.000But then you see how they behave to other primates, and it's shocking.
00:07:18.000You can't believe that, as sophisticated as they are and how connected you feel to them, You know, they don't feel that sort of level of compassion or empathy for other primates at all.
00:07:32.000And they are, yeah, they hunt them regularly.
00:08:19.000You know, I remember on the second shoot, but it was the first time a new camera crew had come out.
00:08:27.000I was with one of the camerawomen, Lauren, and she was a really experienced woman in filming in hostile and remote locations, but had never filmed chimps before and wasn't really used to the environment.
00:08:42.000And on our first day out, they hunted a big black and white colobus monkey.
00:08:50.000And, you know, I mean, it's everything that goes along with it.
00:08:53.000It's the sort of the cooperation, the teamwork.
00:08:59.000You know, there's a tension in the air when you know that they're going to hunt, they've decided to hunt.
00:09:35.000Where am I? Like, what have I got myself into?
00:09:39.000But she was absolutely amazing because she sort of, you know, held the shots and a lot of what she filmed that day is in the series, actually.
00:09:46.000But, I don't know, the energy, when you're there and you're watching it, the energy of the whole thing takes over.
00:09:54.000And, you know, maybe this isn't a good thing, but I think when you have seen it quite a few times and you accept it as part of the natural relationship between these two species...
00:11:55.000And I think when you watch them share meat after they've hunted a monkey, that's when some of its sort of function becomes clear because who catches the monkey and then who gets a share of that becomes a really political business.
00:12:16.000And that feels, you know, from our perspective watching it, that suddenly it all sort of fell into place a little bit because who gets meat and who doesn't has a sort of, it's very political.
00:12:31.000Yeah, it seemed like that in the documentary, particularly when the female with the baby got some, and the one male that didn't got very upset and attacked her.
00:12:43.000Yeah, that's a kind of a classic example of it, or...
00:12:51.000Yeah, you know, they're all there trying to get a piece of meat because they want to, but it risks upsetting other chimps.
00:13:07.000Yeah, and the strongest alliances are being served in that situation.
00:13:14.000So sometimes chimps get a scrap here or there.
00:13:18.000In that particular incident, she made it away with quite a big share of the monkey.
00:13:25.000And I think, you know, I wasn't there filming that particular moment, but I remember the crew saying when they came back, it did feel like that's trouble, actually.
00:13:35.000Good for you for getting a share, but actually you're going to get into trouble somehow.
00:13:40.000But because, you know, whether she was aware that there was somebody who's, you know, a high-ranking male was being excluded at the same time.
00:13:49.000So there was this tension between the males.
00:13:52.000And then this was further complicated by a female getting a share.
00:13:59.000It's just so fascinating to watch the communication and just the politics that are involved and all the negotiation and the way they treat each other.
00:14:13.000Was that surprising to you that it was so complex?
00:15:53.000The amazing thing is that there seems to be some other level of communication going on, that they somehow know what each other are about to do.
00:16:05.000Or in some circumstances they don't and they're surprised and it causes conflict.
00:16:09.000But I think about particularly when you watch chimps go on patrol, right?
00:16:15.000They patrol their borders, the borders of their territory.
00:16:19.000And they do that in silence, and they do that for a reason, because they don't want anybody outside their territory to know where they are.
00:16:28.000But how to coordinate that when they're not making any noise to each other at all?
00:16:34.000They're looking at each other, and they appear to be reading each other's intentions, and they kind of know, without anybody saying anything, that we're going on patrol now.
00:16:57.000You know, I had endless conversations with the scientists at AT&GoGo about that.
00:17:06.000You know, they're stumped as well because there aren't really any signals that this is about to happen.
00:17:14.000And, you know, they'll be lying around or grooming or doing something completely disconnected.
00:17:22.000And then one chimp will get up and just start walking off in the direction of the border and And then the others will join.
00:17:33.000And then as they start moving closer to the border, the amount they vocalise just goes down and down and down to the point of being completely silent.
00:17:52.000You know, maybe it's associated with specific individual chimps who the other chimps know that those guys are patrol leaders.
00:18:02.000You know, years ago, in the early days when the scientists were first there, There was a chimp called Ellington, and he was the patrol leader when Ngogo was one big group.
00:18:17.000He never showed any real interest in the dominance hierarchy, so he never made a play to be alpha.
00:18:26.000He was a high-ranking male, but he was not engaged in that internal dominance struggle at all, really.
00:18:33.000But of all the patrols that they witnessed there, Ellington was the one who was present for the most and quite often leading them.
00:18:42.000So he seemed to have this attraction to that behaviour or this ability or desire to To go and patrol their borders more than other chimps.
00:18:56.000And maybe in some ways that explains the lack of communication, that it's actually the very fact of Ellington getting up and moving off for no apparent reason does communicate to the other chimps, okay, we're going to go on patrol now.
00:19:13.000And, you know, the sort of modern version of Ellington, who was around during our filming period, is a chimpanzee called Rollins, who similarly has never shown any real interest to make it to the alpha position.
00:19:31.000While all the other males are sort of, you know, jostling for position there, and you get the feeling that ultimately they all want to be on that top spot, and they'll just get as high as they can.
00:19:42.000Rollins doesn't seem to have that desire, or certainly it doesn't appear so, but he is the patrol leader.
00:19:53.000He's always out there in front and taking the Western group on patrols, and they do it a lot, and it's very often him.
00:20:03.000And what was interesting was that his younger brother, who really is just an adolescent chimp, Damien, he was just kind of coming of age or just come of age when we started filming for Chimp Empire.
00:20:19.000And he really grew into that role during our filming period.
00:20:24.000He became Rowlands' sort of second-in-command during that period.
00:20:31.000I mean, they look very similar anyway.
00:20:33.000They're very different ages, actually.
00:20:34.000They've got the same father, different mother.
00:20:37.000Very different ages, but they look the same.
00:20:40.000But they don't know that they're brothers.
00:20:45.000But for some reason, they have this extremely close connection and both appear to have a real desire to engage in this territorial behaviour.
00:20:56.000It's so wild to watch because there's sentries, there's ones that are on the lookout, they hold a particular post, and there's no communication.
00:21:11.000I've often asked about, how is this functioning?
00:21:15.000You know, you don't, like I say, other parts of their lives, they're making vocalizations and signals that even though you don't understand what they are, you can start to see patterns, like the food grunts, for instance.
00:21:28.000You know, that's a very, it's a unique sound, and they make it when they're enjoying food.
00:21:33.000And then the rest of chimps gather and they enjoy the same food.
00:21:37.000So there's a clear way to observe that and to try and understand what it means.
00:21:45.000But patrols are, yeah, they've, you know, we know a lot about them through the scientists at N'Goga and through observing them ourselves, but there are mysterious elements to it that nobody understands.
00:22:01.000Do you think it's taught behavior, like the main ones had to learn this out of necessity and then everybody else sort of observed this behavior and recognized the importance of it?
00:22:20.000When we were there, so Burgle, this young chimp who was just sort of coming of age, he started attending patrols.
00:22:30.000So he's young, he's only 10 years old.
00:22:32.000But he's an orphan so he'd always hung out with older males anyway.
00:22:37.000And during our filming period he just really started becoming a more frequent attendee of these patrols.
00:22:44.000Now they're dangerous and most younger chimps won't do that.
00:22:50.000But, yeah, you wonder whether that's where it kind of starts, that you're mimicking the chimpanzees that you want to be friends with, and you want to be like, and you know that this is just something you see them do,
00:23:53.000You know, I mean, until there's proof for that, it's just pure speculation, but there's a gap in the understanding there, from a scientific point of view.
00:24:06.000And, you know, like I say, if they were here today, the scientists from Rungoga, they would be saying the same thing, that we don't know exactly how those patrols are instigated and how the chimps involved know that they're on patrol.
00:25:33.000And in hindsight, I can't really believe that I couldn't spot it, but there was something that just seemed very human about him.
00:25:40.000I was sort of looking more closely, and I realised Pinsa had sort of completely white sclera, like you and I, right?
00:25:50.000So, you know, when I look over like that, you know exactly where I'm looking, and that's a very, it's an important part of human cooperation.
00:25:59.000We follow each other's gaze, and therefore you know what it is I'm interested in, or maybe what I'm about to do.
00:26:07.000But in chimps, I was reading around it after I saw this chimp pincer with his white sclera, whites of the eyes.
00:26:16.000Officially, chimps don't have this characteristic.
00:26:20.000They're supposed to all have, like, brown...
00:26:25.000Where we have whites of the eyes, they have brown.
00:26:27.000So the difference in color between the iris and here is less similar.
00:26:39.000That's not even the best sort of picture of Pinsa.
00:26:42.000And obviously you can see a bit of discoloration.
00:26:45.000They look like quite unhealthy whites of the eyes there.
00:26:48.000He has a very defined difference between his iris and whites of the eyes.
00:26:54.000So with Pinsa, even at a distance, you can see where he's looking.
00:26:59.000That may not seem like much, but in a species where we don't fully understand their communication or they appear to be doing things without any vocalizations, I wondered, like, you know, how come Pinsa's got this and what impact does it have?
00:27:18.000I talked to, you know, there are other examples, actually, and there was a chimp in Gombe, I think he was called Mr. Wurzel, who had a very good example of whites of the eyes as well.
00:27:31.000But we started looking into it at Ngogo, and I started talking to the scientists about it.
00:27:39.000And they were like, well, yeah, Pencil does have whites to the eyes.
00:27:42.000We've never really thought about it that much.
00:27:45.000And it's not that they didn't notice, but as filmmakers with our lenses and things, we're often looking at the chimps in a level of detail that the scientists don't see every day.
00:27:58.000So in a way, we're sort of providing them with some sort of visual data that was of interest.
00:28:06.000And actually, they did a proper study on it at N'Gogo and tried to find how many chimps at N'Gogo had this sort of whites of the eyes.
00:28:17.000And they found, I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was quite a reasonable percentage of it.
00:28:24.000You know, Pincel's a great example, but had some version of that.
00:28:28.000They don't know why this is, but in my sort of excited sort of way, I was thinking, well, here's the biggest group of chimps ever known.
00:28:38.000They cooperate on levels that you don't see regularly in other chimpanzee groups.
00:28:44.000You know, they're on these territorial boundary patrols all the time.
00:29:18.000But there was, you know, what's interesting about Pinsa is that even though he never made it to the top either, but he fathered a huge number of offspring and he was always there on these cooperative behaviours.
00:29:35.000So he's as if there's a hunt going on, Pinsa's around.
00:29:38.000So this was, like I say, it was just my hypothesis from a non-scientific point of view, but I thought he played a sort of disproportionate role in sort of cooperative behaviours.
00:30:24.000That's exactly what the scientists wanted to know, because obviously for it to be of evolutionary benefit, it needs to persist.
00:30:36.000His offspring don't actually, not in a way that, you know, if every kid that Pinsa had came out with these eyes, you would suddenly think, well, he has a little mutation.
00:31:19.000I say we because the scientists generously made me an author on the paper and I think, you know, I didn't do any of the real science work on it at all.
00:31:32.000But I think because of the conversations we were having, it sort of inspired that particular study.
00:31:40.000I think they found that there was, again, don't quote me on the numbers, but something in the order of sort of 13 individuals at N'Gogo.
00:31:55.000That sounds very science-y, but it means that it was a significant percentage, enough to take note of.
00:32:04.000And And that's as far as the study's got.
00:32:08.000They don't really understand the impact of that, if it has any impact at all.
00:32:13.000You know, it could just be random variation.
00:32:16.000And because N'Gogo is such a huge group...
00:32:21.000You know, you would expect to see more variety and more incidences of things that occur on low levels.
00:32:33.000So they still really don't understand the role of that.
00:32:38.000But it was interesting to me on two levels.
00:32:41.000I thought it was fascinating because it made me just wonder about what's going on behind those eyes.
00:32:46.000But also as a human, you just engage with pincer in this, you know, it's like suddenly there's a part of his face that feels a lot more familiar.
00:32:56.000I remember one of the scientists who was there years ago when I was there, Kevin Potts.
00:33:03.000And like I say, they'd say different things around the fire at night as to what they'd say in the scientific papers.
00:33:11.000I remember Kevin going, oh, I'm totally with you on Pinsa.
00:33:15.000And he said, honestly, someday I'll be out there following Pinsa around and he's just sitting there close to me.
00:33:21.000And I just think, any minute he's going to just turn around and say, what are you doing, Kevin?
00:34:57.000He was actually a low-ranking male his whole life.
00:35:00.000And he had the same number of offspring as the alpha male at the time.
00:35:06.000So he is an alpha male that sort of dedicated his entire life to knocking off other guys on his way to the top and all the stress associated with being an alpha male at N'Gogo.
00:35:19.000And actually, you know, ultimately it's all about having kids.
00:35:23.000And he had fewer kids than Pinter, who had just hung out at number 18, number 19, you know, shying away from fights, but was very successful.
00:35:34.000But those things could be completely unrelated because...
00:35:39.000Pinsa was also fascinating in that he had a different sort of strategy with females as well.
00:35:45.000He spent a lot of time with females in ways that some of the higher ranking males didn't.
00:35:52.000So they wouldn't really spend much time with the females, concentrate on their male relationships.
00:35:59.000And then when the females, you know, were in a reproductive state, an oestrus, then they'd go, alright, okay, now it's time, and use their position to gain access to her.
00:36:10.000Whereas Pinsa played the more sort of girlfriend-type game.
00:36:15.000He'd spend a lot of time with females, even when they weren't reproductively...
00:36:29.000And yeah, the Ugandan field trackers, they used to love Pinsa.
00:36:36.000And they used to describe these different female chimps as Pinsa's girlfriends and Pinsa's wives, depending on how much time he spent with them.
00:36:44.000But he spent a lot of time with females.
00:38:16.000I mean and you know at one point in time we were sort of in the same group of hominids and something happened to us and they sort of remain the same.
00:38:26.000I think out of all the animals that human beings have ever studied, none of them are as fascinating as chimpanzees.
00:38:33.000Because of our direct connection to them, our close relation to them, I totally agree.
00:38:40.000I mean, you know, some people love animals because they're different in different ways.
00:38:45.000And some people don't like chimps because they're very similar in some ways that are really good and in some ways which are quite dark.
00:38:54.000You know, there are lots of similarities.
00:38:56.000You know, there are important differences as well, and I think that is what makes them so fascinating.
00:39:03.000If they were really, really similar, then it would be too similar.
00:39:11.000The intrigue is sort of where does that similarity end and the differences begin, and I think...
00:39:19.000That's a very personal experience watching chimps.
00:39:23.000I think that's why people find it so cool as well.
00:39:26.000You relate to different qualities in them as a species or different individuals.
00:39:31.000I hope that's what we did for Chimp Empire because we tried to pick a real range of perspectives.
00:39:48.000And, you know, you can say chimpanzees are like this or chimpanzees are like that or a chimpanzee of this age does this or that.
00:39:55.000And some of those generalisms are true and are useful.
00:40:02.000But that sort of individual variation, that difference in personality from chimp to chimp that really affects what happens to them and what they do and who they have relationships with,
00:40:59.000The team members, our human team members, swapped in and out.
00:41:04.000So the camera crew, which was made up of four people usually, two on each group, they'd do sort of between six weeks and two months at a time.
00:41:17.000And then they'd come out and leave the forest, leave Uganda, come back home, get their lives in order, you know, have some rest.
00:41:23.000And then they'd come out for another two months when the second team was finished, and we sort of tag-teamed the camera crews.
00:41:30.000I was not out nearly as often as the camera crew, so I personally would go out at the start of the shoots and help set up with the camera teams and introduce them to what we were trying to do and the characters we were following and how we wanted to film them.
00:41:51.000At the same time, it's a real sort of observational documentary.
00:41:58.000So my role in it was to try and give them a good sense of the overall approach that we were taking, the dedication that we wanted to film specific characters day after day after day,
00:42:15.000and that Only after filming them, in that sort of level of commitment, are we going to really get a sense of who they are.
00:42:24.000And that involves filming chimps when they're not doing stuff that's very interesting.
00:42:29.000I remember early days, Gus, who's one of my favourite chimps, the antisocial adolescent, I just thought he was going to be an interesting character from the start.
00:42:43.000But the camera team who were sort of tasked with following him for miles and hours and hours during the day, they were coming back at the start and going, you know, I don't know about this Gus guy.
00:42:53.000He doesn't do a lot and he's often on his own.
00:42:57.000And they'd be hearing all this commotion over this other part of the forest.
00:43:09.000And, you know, they're jealous of the people who had the more sort of immediately exciting targets.
00:43:15.000But that was what we had to do to bring that diversity of characters to life is that, you know, some characters won't do a lot on a day-to-day basis.
00:43:27.000And you're fully invested in them and you're with them.
00:43:31.000And it was his inactivity that was kind of Gus's story, actually.
00:43:35.000He was often on his own, which meant he wasn't doing a lot because he's just him in the trees.
00:43:41.000But then when he came out of that sort of isolation and tried to groom someone, desperately trying to make a friend, you were with him.
00:43:49.000You know, you're like, oh, this guy, he's coming to the group.
00:43:52.000Maybe he's going to Maybe someone's going to groom him back.
00:43:55.000So it was, yeah, it was important to follow that range of characters.
00:44:00.000But being sort of immersed for that long, you know, it's an incredible experience.
00:44:06.000And I think that for everybody involved in it, that was part of it.
00:44:12.000You're living, you literally live within the N'Gogo chimpanzee territory because the The scientific study has a camp.
00:44:21.000It's like this small island in the middle of the Ngogo territory.
00:44:27.000It's a completely pristine rainforest in every direction, but there's a little clearing, and it's been there for decades.
00:44:36.000And there's a selection of sort of tents and little log cabins, very low impact and small, but that's where the scientists and the Ugandan field trackers stay every year when they go out there.
00:44:50.000But being immersed in it, even at night time, you know, where you can hear the sounds of the forest and you know the chimps are out there sleeping not that far from you, That really helps with engaging in their lives, actually.
00:45:05.000Had we been able to sort of like nip in and out and stay in a hotel outside, you know, everybody wanted, you know, you miss the comforts a lot, you know, and when you do get out, you love it.
00:45:17.000But it was an important part of the process to be properly immersed and to live in the forest and it just, it helped you sort of feel what they feel a little bit.
00:45:28.000I would imagine that the coordination of filming and then the editing process of trying to piece together a narrative is incredibly complex and difficult because you have 400 days of footage that you want to boil down to four shows.
00:46:29.000And the cameras had evolved quite a lot since I was filming Chimps even a few years previously.
00:46:37.000So we got an enormous amount of footage.
00:46:42.000It's also just working with a team of scientists who just totally believed in it and enabled us to get that level of access, helped us predict what was going to happen, where they were going to go.
00:46:54.000So we filmed a lot more than I ever expected.
00:47:00.000And yeah, condensing that down and simplifying it into a four-part series was a huge challenge.
00:47:10.000Like I said, from the beginning, we were totally disciplined about certain things, you know.
00:47:18.000However, we were going to tell the story that unfolded over that 18 months.
00:47:25.000There's not the option to make things up or create stories that didn't happen.
00:47:34.000The challenge was going to be, what do we not use, basically?
00:47:44.000We filmed a lot more than we ever needed and we did that in terms of range of characters as well.
00:47:51.000There are whole character storylines that we filmed that didn't make it in.
00:47:56.000So that's where we were, that's where our editing process and our sort of creative approach to it.
00:48:04.000Was that we're going to be able to make these really dramatic and accessible stories by a mission, by what we don't have in.
00:48:16.000But that process is sort of like a sculpting process.
00:48:21.000You sort of come back with a hundred hours worth of footage off one shoot and we did six shoots.
00:48:27.000And then you sort of go through that and just gradually sculpt it down to the characters and the moments in those character stories that you feel are the most interesting or reflect what really happened.
00:49:23.000We tried to use them as infrequently as possible because even though they were quiet for a generator, but still you don't want to be chugging away and using up fuel in a sort of low impact situation there.
00:50:24.000So, yeah, and we went through loads of sort of working out how do we make sense of this?
00:50:30.000Did you coordinate this in advance before the expedition began?
00:50:33.000Yeah, huge amount of work beforehand on all sorts of things.
00:50:38.000So all the camera, we tested out a ton of cameras.
00:50:42.000So there's lots of things on the technical camera side that we had to, and that involved going to local forests in the UK. This is in terms of capabilities.
00:50:52.000Low light capability and weight and ease of use because, yeah.
00:51:58.000You know, he's not filming it for, you know, it's not a 4K Netflix production.
00:52:03.000But he's just filmed moments in their lives that have just been impossible for film crews, carrying enormous equipment, very heavy tripods, so they're stable in the forest, giant long lenses.
00:52:17.000Traditionally, film crews have only really managed to capture small parts of their lives.
00:52:24.000Whereas David was filming these incredible things regularly.
00:52:28.000It just felt like he had this amazing access.
00:52:32.000And I remember thinking, if we can find some version of that where we have the same level of access that David has, but with cameras, with new technology that will deliver for a sort of 4K Netflix production.
00:52:48.000You know, so in the end, I mean, if I had the camera on the table now, you'd be like, well, that doesn't look very small.
00:52:54.000And it was, you know, and the camera crew would be like, well, they were quite heavy, actually.
00:52:57.000And you had to carry them around in backpacks.
00:52:59.000But they were significantly lighter and easier to use than things that would normally be used on those sorts of shoes.
00:53:13.000But in a way, that's related to this huge volume of footage.
00:53:17.000So we sort of came up with this fantastic setup with the cameras, but it allowed these camera people who were fit as well and just like super keen to just film all sorts of things that we didn't expect to get.
00:53:33.000Then we have this huge challenge where we've got volumes of footage that, you know, often with things that you kind of, you know, you might film a grooming scene for sort of two hours and then in the end you only want to use a few shots of it.
00:53:46.000You know, you're still representing what happened there, but you've got this huge volume of stuff to cut out.
00:53:52.000So yeah, long months before we ever went there.
00:53:56.000We're trying to work out how we're going to organize this stuff.
00:53:59.000And we need to organize it, like, when it's fresh.
00:54:03.000Because we need to know who's in that shot.
00:54:05.000We can't just end up in the edit with, like, 300 hours of, like, who's that chimp again?
00:54:12.000You know, you just can't do any of that stuff.
00:54:14.000So I imagine, like, I imagine reality series do a similar thing, actually.
00:54:20.000The sort of observational docs where you're just filming a ton of people all the time or CCTV-style stuff.
00:54:26.000But for us, we needed to straight away back up the footage and then assess what we had.
00:54:34.000And every single shot needs to be logged with which chimps are in that shot, what are they doing, what are the conditions, and then there's all the data that's built into it that says when it was and even in some case GPS information.
00:54:51.000So all of that went into every single shot.
00:54:54.000So at the end of it, we've got this enormous library and this cool bit of software where you can go, I'm pretty sure I know the story beats that we've recorded with Gus, but let's just type in Gus and bring up every shot of Gus that we got over the year.
00:55:08.000And it would go, and then that's Gus, everything that we've got of Gus.
00:55:14.000And so, you know, we had to, once we knew the characters that we wanted to be viewing this story through, we were able to sort of concentrate on them and sort of build out of the narrative that we filmed there.
00:55:36.000Yeah, build their storylines in parallel to the storylines with the group.
00:55:42.000Now that there's cell phones that are capable of 4K, and you're talking about how this one scientist was able to get access with this very small camcorder, was there any thought of using cell phones?
00:55:58.000Because they're so small now and the cameras are so good.
00:56:21.000It's a digital zoom, so you're not using as much of the sensor.
00:56:25.000Although they are extremely impressive, and when you're in a situation with loads of light, the images look...
00:56:31.000You can blow them up on a screen like that and they look good.
00:56:34.000But they don't actually compare to professional cameras in that type of situation.
00:56:41.000But when you're talking about this one scientist that had this very tiny camera and all the incredible footage that he was able to get, I would imagine that with cell phones today, particularly with these, there's various add-on lenses, little cases that you could put on a small cell phone.
00:57:51.000So, we went through like a huge pre-editing process, which is what I was talking about earlier.
00:57:59.000Going from that, right, this is everything that we've shot, reducing it right down to, you know, the best bits and the most relevant scenes that we'd filmed.
00:58:10.000You know, Gus is quite a good example.
00:58:12.000We would, you know, film him for hours, not doing very much and looking...
00:59:07.000The story unfolded in a particular way, but we could choose when to introduce the different groups and we could choose how much to expand certain parts of the story and then how much to sort of compress times during that narrative that we recorded.
00:59:30.000So there are quite a lot of creative choices there.
00:59:33.000Like I say, the overall series at the end, that's what happened.
00:59:38.000But there's a whole load of bits that we sort of compressed because you didn't necessarily need to see this period between that and that, and it wasn't relevant for the story.
00:59:52.000But yeah, editing, so a lot of work done before the edit, because you couldn't have expected any editors to come in and just go, well, you know, there's the rushes.
01:00:03.000Make us a good opening show, will you?
01:00:07.000So loads of work done before the editors got on board.
01:00:12.000But then, yeah, four different editors, about 20 weeks per episode.
01:00:24.000Yeah, so what's that, like five months or something?
01:00:27.000But you know, that sounds like a really long time, and it is, but you have to be in a position to share a cut with, in this case, Netflix, about halfway through that process.
01:02:25.000And we, you know, initially we didn't do any sort of narration on it because we wanted to sort of do a test of like, how much are you going to just engage with these chimps?
01:02:39.000And not be told what's happening or what might be about to happen or what that means.
01:02:45.000Let's just do it without any commentary at all to start with.
01:02:49.000And it was a fantastic exercise because then we showed Sarah at Netflix that first cut.
01:02:59.000And you were just like, you were right in there.
01:03:01.000And you know, in a way, I sort of, in some ways, I missed that first version because it was kind of, it was an odd experience.
01:03:07.000Just sort of like, no, just, we are just going to be following the chimps.
01:03:12.000And the edit and the music and the sound is going to sort of tell us what's happening here.
01:03:18.000You might have liked that because it was a very direct experience with the chimps.
01:03:24.000Have you thought about releasing a different version that doesn't have narration?
01:03:30.000It seems like you have so much footage.
01:03:32.000I would imagine that it's just more people watching.
01:03:37.000Yeah, I mean, in the end, because we've got Mahershala Ali and I just loved that part of the process as well.
01:03:45.000So I think in the end, you know, I thought it was a great exercise, but actually, you know, we wanted it to reach a broad audience.
01:03:55.000We did want another layer of thought process there and some interpretation.
01:04:04.000And, you know, Mahershala did a fantastic job.
01:04:07.000And I think that, you know, yeah, there are other voices we could have had on it that I may have sort of regretted and that may have taken something away from that.
01:04:17.000And I think that that was, yeah, for me that sort of confirmed that, yeah, we lucked out with Mahershala and he was fantastic because it gave it something else.
01:04:28.000It gave it an extra sort of conceptual That I think really, really helps.
01:04:36.000It certainly makes it more relatable to humans.
01:04:40.000It makes it easier to follow along, especially if someone is not completely fascinated with just observing chimp behavior with no narration.
01:04:49.000Yeah, and the thing is, you can't, like stylistically, there's whole sections that you could follow actually without any narration.
01:05:00.000But then that becomes quite an unusual experience if you go like 20 minutes without hearing a word and then Mahershala pops up because you need to know something here about what's at stake.
01:05:14.000You know, and that's often how we sort of tried to shape the narration, was sort of on a need-to-know basis.
01:05:23.000You know, I think we, you know, because the voice really worked, we sort of decided to use it a little bit more.
01:05:32.000But our initial approach was, well, I think in certain situations, you know, for instance, Gus going to groom Abrams or whatever, You need to know what's at stake there.
01:05:45.000You need to know that he doesn't actually have any grooming partners and that this sort of opportunity with a chimp like Abrams could change his situation.
01:06:00.000And you could, you know, partly you could follow that visually, but I think it really, it helped sort of really solidifying some of those thoughts.
01:06:11.000You have so much footage and four shows.
01:06:15.000Has there been thought about expanding this and doing more episodes?
01:06:44.000So quite a lot of the footage that we didn't use are just sort of other examples of the same thing that we didn't, you know, less descriptive versions of, you know, or repeated behaviours and things.
01:06:58.000So there wasn't a lot of things that you sort of feel, ooh, there's a whole other show in there.
01:07:02.000And also they weren't things that, you know, how the series concludes.
01:07:06.000That was really at the end of our final shoot.
01:07:10.000So, the footage that we have is sort of supporting material for everything that's sort of out there.
01:07:19.000But, I mean, you know, the story still continues in GoGo.
01:07:25.000You know, things are still going on there and still changing.
01:08:59.000But I don't know, yeah, whether it's going to get bigger or bigger or who knows.
01:09:05.000I mean, I personally and the whole team who were involved in it, you just kind of fall in love with that place and the people who work there and all the chimps.
01:09:18.000You know, whether we're filming or not, you want to find out what's happening.
01:09:23.000Because you're following that story, whether you film it or not.
01:09:25.000And I think we'll always be on a sort of like, you know, we want to find out.
01:10:22.000I mean, there are other chimpanzee sites, several other chimpanzee sites around Africa where they have a similar, you know, the chimps are habituated, long-term scientific projects.
01:10:35.000You know, Jane Goodall being the perfect example.
01:10:52.000What's unique about Ngogo is as well as having that level of access and data and sort of so you just have so much information about the chimps but there's also just a ton of chimps.
01:11:05.000And And they are quite unique in that the Ngogo territory is surrounded by forest in every direction.
01:11:13.000Whereas at other sites, often, you know, chimpanzee habitats are sort of bordered by farmland or human settlements of some kind.
01:11:24.000So they're quite sort of, it's a little wild pocket in amongst an area that is less wild.
01:11:32.000And I think this is unique for study sites of chimps.
01:11:38.000It's wild in every direction outside of there.
01:11:41.000So that does impact their behaviour and their sort of group dynamics because...
01:11:48.000The edge of their territory is not like some land they can't go on.
01:11:52.000It's land they can take because it belongs to other chimps.
01:11:58.000Whether you enjoy watching that aspect of chimpanzee behavior or not, there's another layer to what happens at N'Gogo.
01:12:11.000You know, loads of other chimpanzee sites, they have different things that they do.
01:12:15.000You know, for instance, in Fongoli, in Senegal, they use spears to hunt bush babies.
01:12:23.000You know, there's sort of this, in every little, in every different chimpanzee site, there's like a An associated unique behavior or culture.
01:12:34.000Scientists wouldn't call it culture, but a simple way of looking at it, there's different things that they do that are separate and different to other chimpanzees.
01:12:45.000So there's observed chimpanzees that use spears?
01:13:51.000Well, I mean, chimpanzees, you know, have used tools since Jane, well, Jane Goodall, they've used tools probably for thousands and thousands of years, we don't know.
01:14:00.000But, you know, Jane Goodall discovered that many years ago.
01:14:05.000So making, not just using tools, but making tools.
01:15:51.000And maybe as a function of that, there's levels of cooperative behavior there that they achieve getting the things that they want through cooperation rather than tool use.
01:16:03.000When you're observing them hunting after monkeys, is there speculation that there's two things going on?
01:16:12.000That they're hunting the monkeys for food, but also that they're preventing the monkeys from eating the fruit?
01:16:18.000Because they must be in competition with the monkeys for these prized resources.
01:16:23.000Because, of course, the monkeys eat fruit as well.
01:16:51.000And I don't think I've ever really asked that specifically to the scientists there, but I'm guessing that there's so much fruit around You know, those sorts of things might be driven by a scarcity of food.
01:17:08.000So therefore, take out your competitor for that food.
01:17:13.000And I think what they'd probably say was that it's such a rich environment and actually they just seem to love hunting monkeys.
01:19:25.000Unfortunately, if you follow chimps, and a lot of chimp groups do that, in fact, everywhere where you find chimps and monkeys in the same place, it happens, I think.
01:20:28.000And you do, I mean, having said I'm a bit desensitized to it, I think, you know, the natural thing is you're seeing a much bigger animal go after a much smaller animal.
01:20:39.000So in almost everybody, there's an underdog there and there's, you know, you kind of, you are on some level thinking that Come on, if you just get out to that skinny tree, get out to that skinny branch, they won't follow you there.
01:20:54.000You know, because that's the challenge on...
01:20:56.000The monkeys try and get out right on the tips of the branches, which are...
01:21:00.000You know, they won't hold the chimps white.
01:21:20.000And I think, you know, if we were focusing on them a lot, we'd start to engage with them as individuals and, you know, it would feel different.
01:21:59.000Other than, like I said, there are sort of stages to it where, you know, it's not they'll just suddenly start hunting.
01:22:10.000There'll be a process where one of the chimps might hear some monkeys or they might have gone looking for them in a particular area and there's different stages where they kind of know there's monkeys in the area and they're sort of feeling their way around and maybe they've heard a call and they're sort of making their way gradually over there.
01:22:32.000And then when they identify an opportunity, right, okay, there's a group of monkeys here and they're up in that tree.
01:22:41.000And then they can often be very quiet, a bit like being on patrol at that point where, you know, they're just kind of getting as close as they can and in positions where they can be most effective without making any noise and without scaring anything off.
01:23:01.000And then generally it's sort of it takes just one chip to just go for it and then the chase is on so there's no element of surprise or anything it's just it's a rush and they're trying to corner the monkey or monkeys in positions in the trees where they can get to them.
01:23:21.000One of the things that they observed in the David Attenborough capturing of this sort of behavior was that they will sort of ambush them.
01:23:34.000You know, I think a lot of people sort of have different opinions about this and I think probably every hunt is different and I think sometimes you might observe those things and then in your mind get a sense that,
01:23:51.000oh, this is how they must do it because during that hunt he was over there and he was over there and they appeared to do that.
01:23:59.000In my experience, there didn't seem to be that sort of pattern of behaviour.
01:24:06.000It was not as organised as that, actually, when it came to those parts of the hunt.
01:24:15.000Also, it's a very difficult thing to observe and to film.
01:24:20.000So you really, having said, we're getting amazing details of their lives.
01:24:27.000But there are some activities that they do, like a hunt, where you're looking through windows in the canopy and you see a chimp leg it across there and over there and then suddenly someone's got the monkey.
01:24:42.000You know, I think scientifically it's really hard.
01:24:45.000But from a filmmaking point of view, you're capturing moments and you can piece together what's happened there.
01:24:52.000But there's definitely things that you haven't seen that have gone on behind trees or leaves.
01:24:58.000So I think it's hard to kind of know exactly how they do it.
01:25:04.000Is there any concern while you're doing this that you're interfering in some sort of a way or that you're going to upset them, that you're getting in the way of the hunt or getting in the way of their natural behaviors?
01:25:20.000You know, the worst thing we could possibly do is to go in there and try and observe the sort of real world of the Ngoga chimpanzees and then find ourselves having an impact on that, being sort of participating in it.
01:26:17.000And chimpanzees are so spatially aware.
01:26:23.000They live in this three-dimensional forest world where they can just go from tree to tree, horizontal, vertical.
01:26:32.000They're very aware of everything that's around them.
01:26:37.000You would assume in these chaotic moments that, you know, you might get in one's way or run into and it never happens.
01:26:44.000And it's as if, but then again, you never see a chimpanzee run into a tree either.
01:26:49.000You know, they know where everything is.
01:26:52.000And for some bizarre reason, they're totally accepting of this sort of passive presence in the forest, these strange bipedal creatures that sort of follow and are close and sort of within, observing them.
01:27:08.000And it's not like they acknowledge you.
01:27:23.000Until you're there and you're in it, it's sort of an impossible thing to describe and it's a very difficult thing to understand until you're actually right there.
01:27:34.000And I think when something's kicking off and there's a lot of excitement and chaos within the group, if you haven't experienced that before, it's intimidating and you can't quite believe that you're not somehow going to get swept up in it.
01:28:07.000You're there when they get up and you follow them around all day and...
01:28:15.000You know, when they take a shit, when they're making friends with somebody, when they're doing anything that they're doing, you know, and you're just, you're there.
01:28:24.000But they appear not to mind at all, and it doesn't appear to impact their behavior at all.
01:28:34.000How close do they get to the photographers, the humans, the camera people, like, So, you know, there are strict rules that can go on anywhere working with chimpanzees.
01:28:48.000Because we're so similar, they're susceptible and vulnerable to sort of human infections.
01:28:56.000So even things that don't really bother us, like a cough, if we had a cough or a cold, that would be quite dangerous to transmit.
01:29:03.000Was this during COVID that you filmed all this?
01:29:05.000You know, we started just after lockdown.
01:29:08.000But we were prepared to do it before COVID kicked in.
01:29:13.000Then COVID happened and the whole world shut down.
01:29:16.000And then we got out there as soon as we could afterwards when things were starting to open up.
01:29:21.000You know, because Uganda wouldn't let any flights in for a long time.
01:29:26.000We went out there, and we had to be tested regularly for COVID. People were worried about what would happen if a chimp got COVID. Naturally very worried.
01:29:38.000But actually, in place already, there were, you know, you have to wear masks.
01:29:45.000You can't go closer than seven metres.
01:29:49.000If you're not feeling well or anything like that, you mustn't go and see the chimps.
01:29:56.000And that's important because chimps, a common cold, can be lethal to chimps.
01:30:08.000Yeah, so for that reason, you have to stay seven meters away from them in the forest.
01:30:35.000It's about the distance you should be.
01:30:37.000And you make a concerted effort to make sure that's the case.
01:30:43.000However, like I said, the chimps don't know that rule.
01:30:47.000So you can do whatever you can to maintain that distance.
01:30:52.000And, you know, if they come a little closer or come to sit down sort of, you know, within that seven meters, you move back slowly.
01:31:01.000But you don't, you know, it's not advisable to sort of jump out of the way or, you know, you take your opportunity and you slowly get that distance between you back.
01:31:12.000But yeah, it doesn't feel like a lot at all, particularly if there are chimps in every direction.
01:31:18.000And because the N'Gogo group is so big, there can be a lot.
01:31:22.000You can be in the middle of quite an amazing thing.
01:31:25.000I know some of the most dramatic parts of chimpanzee life at N'Gogo.
01:31:35.000You know, it's the patrolling and a lot of the slightly more aggressive elements, but most of the chimps' day is spent doing things that are just really enjoyable to be around.
01:31:51.000Watching chimps groom is one of the most relaxing.
01:32:17.000These huge males who are Capable of all sorts of things.
01:32:24.000Very tenderly sort of groom each other or younger members of the group or the females and like it really, it looks so gentle.
01:32:32.000They're just going, finally going through each of the hairs there and just really checking if there's anything that's worth coming out.
01:32:38.000And they just, they often sort of fall asleep or look very relaxed.
01:32:42.000And those moments are kind of amazing, actually, because you sort of let, they really make you relaxed.
01:32:49.000And then a few kids will be playing around, sort of, you know, they're not interested in long grooming sessions, so they're just tumbling around in the trees and things.
01:32:58.000And that's the majority of chimp life, actually.
01:33:02.000And what's so interesting about them, because it's such a far cry and such huge difference between the more aggressive side of chimpanzees.
01:33:13.000But yeah, that's what makes them so fascinating.
01:33:16.000That situation, they can be like that in the morning and you can feel like you've just stumbled into this sort of paradise situation.
01:33:24.000Everything's so delicate and it's so tender and playful.
01:33:30.000But then by, you know, come the afternoon, you know, they've got a job to do at the border and it's a completely different atmosphere and it's tense and same thing.
01:33:39.000Your heart rate is raised and your state is determined a lot by what the chimps are doing.
01:33:48.000The grooming aspect of their relationships is very unusual.
01:33:54.000It's very unique and very fascinating to watch because they sit there and they allow each other to do this, but there's also this social hierarchy aspect of it.
01:35:56.000So saying anything about the chimps do this or they don't do that, like, you know, we're really generalizing.
01:36:03.000There are occasionally individual chimps who, even if they're not a threat to you, they are showing a level of interest that is different to others.
01:36:16.000And there's a chimp called Rich Burgle, the chimp, who's one of our focal characters in the West.
01:36:26.000And he's always been very comfortable near humans.
01:36:31.000Because usually the chimps, they have that little bit of, a tiny bit of residual fear of humans.
01:36:39.000And I think that's what makes them quite comfortable of that distance as well.
01:36:44.000They're okay if you come there, but they actually don't want to be any closer.
01:36:49.000That 7 to 10 metre rule suits them too, generally.
01:36:54.000That's a comfortable distance, but it's as if the chimps, they don't really want you coming sitting next to them.
01:37:04.000And I don't know whether that's just what they like or whether they're used to it, because over the years that is the distance that scientists have kept or whatever.
01:37:15.000But you do get some chimps that decide to come closer.
01:37:22.000Yeah, and Rich Burgle is one of those chimps.
01:37:26.000He orphaned at a young age, very well habituated, no fear of humans whatsoever.
01:37:34.000You know, he's never made contact, but I think everybody who works with him would say, you know, he's the one that will come and sit a little closer or will walk towards you and then at the very last minute veer off.
01:37:51.000And he's just kind of curious in a way that the others aren't.
01:37:58.000Now, when the chimps are on patrol, that's a uniquely intense and aggressive moment, and it's so wild to watch, to see them, these hulking chimpanzees move through the forest in coordination.
01:38:15.000When you're there with that, and you're very close to these violent encounters, Is there any concern there that you could get caught up in this sort of violent frenzy and maybe be in danger of being attacked?
01:38:56.000You know, I've been through the exact same process as you are now and have this conversation with the scientists like, are we going to be safe?
01:39:03.000You know, is it safe for us to where should we be or where should we not be if this happens when we're there?
01:39:09.000So totally, we had exactly the same questions and we just didn't know.
01:39:15.000And we were reassured by the scientists, you know, you'll be amazed.
01:39:19.000Like, if you see those things, they will happen, but they will ignore you.
01:39:23.000And their only warning was that definitely don't get too close, you know, because the level of excitement around the chimps during these encounters, you know, if there's ever a time when they could accidentally come very close to you or suddenly see you and get a bit of a fright,
01:39:46.000you know, they wouldn't want to take that sort of a risk with it.
01:39:52.000We were warned, you know, keep a respectful distance from that.
01:39:58.000But, amazingly, and there's a little behind-the-scenes clip that we've sort of released on YouTube now, and you can see that during the biggest encounter that we filmed...
01:40:17.000The camera people were sort of like in it and around it and sort of at one stage sort of like accidentally between the two groups as they were sort of standing off and you know that the certain way I mean the chimps move so fast and they organize,
01:40:34.000reorganize, separate or whatever so you can try and be in the perfect position but then that perfect position could quickly become where you don't want to be because of where the chimps have gone So through no fault of their own, there are times when they're in there.
01:40:53.000It's a bit like being a war reporter or something.
01:40:56.000But weirdly, they're so focused on what it is they're doing and have no interest in involving or redirecting their aggression to the humans at all.
01:42:02.000But their relationship with people is just completely different to a relationship chimps might have with people in captivity or if they've been kept as pets or something.
01:42:18.000Yeah, it's just, it's not, I totally get it, and those are exactly the sort of things I wanted to know before I stepped in and go-go.
01:42:26.000Well, I mean, you know, you need to know.
01:42:31.000But amazingly, when you've been there, around it, And even once you've just been on a single patrol with them actually, and they are exhilarating.
01:42:40.000When you go on patrol with Inkoko Chimps, it's amazing.
01:42:44.000They are taking you on a journey to the edge of their border and they're fully committed and they're coordinated.
01:42:50.000And they don't seem to care that you're following them.
01:42:52.000And they're allowing you to sort of be there.
01:46:25.000Well, and I'll say even, you know, interestingly, like I said, the scientists in GoGo, we know them really well now and we've worked with them for a long time.
01:46:36.000So, you know, we share things and they share stories on a more personal level with us.
01:46:43.000But they are obviously better than we or a viewer would be at detaching themselves.
01:46:56.000But even they who have been there for many years...
01:47:01.000And I think particularly because they've been there for many years, sometimes you see an act of violence on a chimp that you've known and been following around for ages.
01:47:10.000They may not care about you, but you really care about them.
01:48:10.000But yes, a couple of occasions whilst we were there.
01:48:17.000And that is, I mean, is it conflicted?
01:48:23.000Do you almost have this feeling that you want to intervene and protect the chimp?
01:48:28.000I think, yeah, everybody who's been around, those feelings, you wish it wouldn't happen.
01:48:37.000You don't want this to conclude in the way that you think it might.
01:48:45.000But again, I think I totally understand why you're asking, but I think once you've been around them enough and you have to have this commitment to...
01:48:58.000And it's part of the same point that you were asking earlier about that impact on their lives.
01:49:03.000You want zero impact on their lives or minimal, right?
01:49:57.000And those, you know, those behaviours have served them well in the past.
01:50:05.000So you can't, as much as it's from a human observer point of view, that same thing, taking that same situation out as something you observed in the street...
01:50:15.000All those natural sort of tendencies, desires to intervene and stop something, you know, they're there for good reason.
01:50:23.000But, you know, this is the entire scientific project, our commitment as filmmakers to observe but not interfere.
01:50:35.000I mean, that's all part of the same thing.
01:50:40.000In any circumstance, you've crossed a line in a really odd way.
01:50:47.000And in a way, that sort of helps with what you're feeling when you see or observe those things, because you know there's absolutely nothing you can do about this.
01:52:10.000They're fascinating because of the connections we have with them.
01:52:13.000They're also fascinating because they're different and they're all individuals.
01:52:17.000And it's a chance to just, you kind of feel a part of something that has, you know, brought that important knowledge and information to people.
01:52:31.000Yeah, so I feel personally very fortunate.
01:54:27.000You know, they invite that level of intrigue, that depth of character, the genuinely different characters who all kind of want quite different things.
01:54:39.000And that, as a sort of storyteller in the natural world, is quite a unique opportunity.
01:55:44.000We talked about it even before we started, actually, because I think, you know, she could see the potential, actually, that, you know, this isn't a...
01:55:53.000This is a, you know, it's a window of time into the Ngogo group, but they don't stop having interesting stories just because we stopped filming them.
01:56:01.000So we sort of knew there was that potential, and And there is a kind of a conversation that's sort of bubbling away.
01:56:10.000But I think waiting, I think it is the sensible thing to wait.
01:56:15.000Let this series have its impact, whatever that will be.
01:56:22.000Like I said, I personally love to do it and I think the whole team would be like, we can't stop now, can we?
01:56:30.000Because it's still happening at N'Gogo.
01:56:32.000Okay, the story for the series is finished, but the N'Gogo story continues.
01:56:37.000And we've learned so much and all that.
01:56:39.000At the same time, there is an argument for saying, you know, it feels quite definitive and, you know, people would worry about what we don't want to do is just...
01:56:54.000It wouldn't be the same thing, because all the chimps get older and new characters want different things, and that story happened in that time, so everything that happened there won't happen again.
01:57:07.000But still, the experience of watching season one...
01:57:13.000It's partly you're following that story, but you're also being introduced to the Ngogo chimps.
01:57:18.000And you're learning about what they do and how they do it, how they relate to each other.
01:57:26.000So there's a lot of that experience, which if you did a season two, in a way it would be great because you would jump straight into a story and not have to have as much exposition about the groups.
01:57:43.000Yeah, don't I? Do you think it should be another one?
01:59:03.000It is interesting because regardless of age as well, so it doesn't really feel like, yeah, there isn't, there isn't, like at Ngogo, there's an average sort of expectancy of Alpha ship.
01:59:17.000And I think that's, yeah, six or seven years.
01:59:20.000And that's why we knew that Jackson, at the start of when we were filming, we knew that he was entering a period where things could get tricky for him because he'd been in charge for about six years.
01:59:35.000And it is very interesting that that tends to be the term.
01:59:38.000And the longer the study goes on for, the more interesting those things become.
01:59:43.000Because I think in the early days, when they were first observing the chimps, they were like, okay, well, he was in charge for three years, he was in charge for seven, and there didn't seem to be any pattern.
01:59:53.000So it was all sort of, well, you're just at the top until someone knocks you off.
01:59:58.000But it does seem interesting that they don't see them lasting that much longer.
02:00:03.000You know, they expect them not to stay there for much longer.
02:00:08.000Is there any evidence that they learn from the chimps that are successful and they mimic this sort of political behavior and sort of like social awareness of keeping everybody happy and sort of like governing and,
02:00:24.000you know, and a sort of an effective Sort of harmonious way?
02:00:31.000Well, whether they see other chimps doing well through that, I don't know.
02:00:43.000I don't know the answer to that, actually.
02:00:46.000I mean, there's certainly, there's leaders in, they adopt different strategies in Individually.
02:00:54.000And definitely the ones that are better at managing their political relationships and their allies, they stay in power longer and they have an easier time of it.
02:01:07.000Like Bartok, I mean these are chimps that passed long before this series, but you would be interested in it.
02:01:26.000It's called pylorect when they stick all that.
02:01:28.000Their hair goes on and it literally gives them a different silhouette, a different body shape.
02:01:33.000And so when you are alpha, you tend to look bigger anyway.
02:01:37.000But even when he was like that, he didn't look as big as the other chimps.
02:01:40.000He was a relatively small chimp, but he was the longest serving alpha they've ever had at Ngogo.
02:01:47.000So he was the most successful leader there.
02:01:49.000And it was right at a time when Ngogo was still one massive group.
02:01:54.000So he probably was leader at the time when the group was biggest for the longest period, and he was also the smallest guy they've ever had in charge.
02:02:05.000And they put all that down to he was extremely good at keeping his relationships going with all the other big males.
02:02:14.000So all the big guys that could threaten him, he was grooming them all the time, keeping them happy.
02:02:30.000At Ngogo, everything is okay after that.
02:02:37.000They might get beaten up badly in the overthrow.
02:02:42.000They might get a bit injured there, but it's never been lethal.
02:02:48.000Whereas at other sites, I've heard that alphas have been killed in the transfer of power.
02:02:58.000Interestingly, that's never happened at Ngogo.
02:03:03.000The incoming, there could well be a big fight and some minor injuries, but then that's it.
02:03:11.000And there's a new dominance hierarchy established.
02:03:16.000And as long as the outgoing alpha is submitting to the incoming one in the formal way, the pant grund, Whenever he comes by, then that's just, okay, we've sorted this out.
02:03:37.000But what happens then is they can sometimes retain a sort of high position in the hierarchy.
02:03:45.000Like Miles, for instance, who's Jackson's giant friend.
02:03:50.000He was alpha for quite a brief period and then I can't remember who was after and then I think could have been Jackson actually who took it off Myles.
02:04:00.000Myles remained high up there in number two and number three spot.
02:04:42.000Sapolsky spent a lot of time embedded with baboons, and one of the things that he observed that's incredibly unusual is there was a group of baboons that was eating food that was in garbage that was from, I believe it was a resort.
02:04:58.000And these particularly ruthless alphas who would have first access to all this kind of food, They got poisoned because they ate this bad food and they wound up dying.
02:05:09.000And it completely changed the way they behave with each other.
02:05:14.000The ruthless alphas died and all of a sudden it became this sort of utopian civilization amongst baboons where they didn't exhibit any of that barbaric behavior.
02:05:25.000And they were much more kind to each other.
02:06:35.000It's a bit of life, and the females get a part of that as well.
02:06:41.000But interestingly, females seem to love being in the West, and there's quite a lot of incoming feelings into the Western group, incoming females into the Western group.
02:06:56.000So they've got a small number of males, but a huge number of females, and females have left the central group and gone to the West.
02:09:19.000You worry about them because it's inevitable that they're going from a place where they know everybody and they're treated relatively well and you know it's their sort of family and social group and then they're traveling across to a group where everybody is sort of hostile but the local females in particular And that might last a while as well.
02:09:47.000So for the first couple of years even, it could be quite a nervous, anxious existence.
02:10:21.000But the interesting thing now at Ngogo, because the former giant Ngogo group is now central group and western group, so in a way this is going to make transferring as an adolescent female a much easier thing to do because some of them will transfer from central group to the western group.
02:11:18.000So, I mean a number of different things that kind of go back quite a few years.
02:11:25.000I mean, the sheer size of the group, you know, had never been documented anywhere.
02:11:32.000The Ngogo, the numbers of chimpanzees in the original Ngogo group are more than twice the size of the next biggest group.
02:11:41.000So it was a bit of a mystery how they were holding together anyway, and also whether they would hold together forever.
02:11:50.000Can they really just keep on growing and maintaining, staying as one group?
02:11:57.000Bearing in mind there's still the same sort of social structure.
02:12:00.000So you still have a single alpha male, but the group is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
02:12:09.000Even back when I was there a few, in like 2015, previously, so this was before they split, but at that point, I remember Kevin Langergrabber, one of the scientists that was there at the time,
02:12:27.000And they he was explaining that actually the Ngogo community is a bit different.
02:12:32.000Like they are one group, but they have these little subgroups like neighborhoods within within the territory.
02:12:41.000And so they're already describing some of these neighborhoods as the Easterners and the Westerners and stuff.
02:14:29.000I mean, I'm very lucky to just spend time with the N'Gogo chimps, but at this period...
02:14:32.000It's fascinating because, you know, brilliant for filming and the potential for interesting story to unfold was right there from the start.
02:14:43.000But it's also, it's scientifically, it's unknown territory.
02:14:55.000I keep name-checking people, but it's sort of reminding me of the different roles that they sort of played.
02:15:00.000John Matani, who's one of the main scientists there, he was really the one who sort of highlighted when this happened, sort of how unique this was going to be.
02:15:13.000And I remember thinking, oh, this is amazing.
02:15:20.000But he was saying, well, look, of course it's a fascinating thing to happen.
02:15:26.000But now we have two groups that are both completely habituated to human presence and they're rivals.
02:15:35.000And so, as scientists, we can be there and study what happens between these two groups and as filmmakers too.
02:15:45.000You have access to this sort of being on the two different sides of this chimpanzee rivalry and with equal access.
02:15:55.000Now, that had never happened before because usually chimpanzee groups...
02:16:02.000The habituated group, the ones that scientists have got used to human presence, you can study them and film them very closely, but the wild chimps, the truly wild, not used to people ones, you can't get close to them as a scientist or as a filmmaker.
02:16:16.000You know they're out there, you can hear them, but you can't get close to them.
02:16:20.000So the split presented this fascinating situation Scientifically, but also this really unique filming opportunity.
02:16:30.000We can literally be embedded in these two different groups.
02:16:35.000And nobody knows what's going to happen over the next year or two.
02:16:42.000But we know it's going to be interesting.
02:16:44.000And we know there's a new situation here that, yeah, anything could happen.
02:16:53.000That sounds like a pitch for season two to me.
02:17:00.000Because there's so much that could happen.
02:17:18.000I mean, just watching it, I find it personally fascinating.
02:17:21.000Listen, I just think you did a fantastic job, and you should be very proud of it.
02:17:25.000And as a person who is very fortunate enough to be alive when this is airing on Netflix, it's really groundbreaking stuff.
02:17:35.000And I mean, until I understood, until I knew the...
02:17:39.000I mean, we kind of watched some of the behind-the-scenes footage, but I had no idea how long it took to get these chimps accustomed to the scientists and...
02:18:10.000Well, the vast majority of cool things you see captured on film with animals is, okay, the film crew did a great job, but usually that was because there were years and years and years of sort of scientific work beforehand that even just enabled you to get in a position where you could see it,
02:18:31.000but also to understand it and what was happening.
02:18:34.000And it's so, you feel it with the Ngogo Chimps, we just felt it from the beginning, you feel it every day.
02:18:41.000All the things that you're wondering about, things that amazed me at the start, those are possible because of decades of work and decades of tracking and following these chimpanzees in the most responsible way as well.
02:19:01.000What would be a sort of fragile relationship between humans and our closest relatives.
02:19:05.000All the things that's amazing about it because of what they did over the decades there.
02:19:12.000And everything that we knew about every one of those chimps, we were able to study their back.
02:19:18.000Before we even went out, we could study their backstories, like for over 200 chimps.
02:19:34.000We've got a proper sense of who each individual chimp was.
02:19:39.000And all that, you know, that's just, that's all the scientists providing that.