The Joe Rogan Experience - May 18, 2023


Joe Rogan Experience #1988 - James Reed

Topics
chimp behavior and interactions hunting chimps Ellington and Rollins patrol behavior chimpanzee patrols and signaling Pinsa's whites of the eyes Pinsa chimps Ngogo chimps behavior and culture chimps hunting monkeys grooming and chimps' life chimps on patrol chimp-on-chimp violence Ngogo chimps chimpanzee characters series season two Ngogo chimp leadership and transfers Ngogo chimpanzee community split
Hosted by
Joe Rogan
Guests
James Reed
Mentioned
Pinsa Jackson Jane Goodall Mahershala Ali Sarah Edelson Bartok Kevin Langergrabber Joe Rogan Podcast Rich Burgle Abrams Ngogo Gombe John Mutani Kevin Langegraver Robert Sapolsky Inkoko Chimps Kevin Boots David Watson Sham Rocker Ellington and 12 more
Joe Rogan Experience #1986 - Jack Carr Joe Rogan Experience #1989 - Andrew Dice Clay

Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 22 minutes

Words per minute

142.57

Word count

20,286

Sentence count

1,583

Harmful content

Misogyny

20

sentences flagged

Toxicity

6

sentences flagged

Hate speech

80

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, we're joined by the man behind the incredible new documentary 'Chimp Empire' about the lives of the Ngogo Chimpanzee group in Africa. We talk about how a team of scientists and a film crew were able to get embedded with the group, and what it was like to film them in their natural habitat in the rainforests of Ngogo, Africa. We also talk about what it's like to be in the chimpanzee group and how they interact with each other and other animals, and the challenges they face in order to maintain a healthy relationship with other primates. And, as always, thank you for listening to the J.R.J.P. Podcast! Cheers, Joe and Rory - The Joe Rogans Experience is a podcast by day, all day. - by night, all night. Check it out! The J. R. Rogan Podcast by Night, by night all day! - by day it's the J-Rod Podcast by night it's The J-Rogan Experience by day! - By night, it's all day all night! - By day, it s: The Chimp Experience by Night It's the Chimp Empire by Night it's: The Journey by Day, All Day It's The Journey By Night, By Night All Day, by Night - By Night It s: A 4 part series chronicling the lives and experiences of a group of chimpanzees in Africa's largest chimpanzee colony. , The Ngogo Chimp - a four part documentary chronicling their lives and their relationship with humans, The Chimpem series. by the scientists and their daily life and their interactions with humans. In this episode, we take a deep dive into what it means to be part of the group and the relationship between humans and chimps and other primates . This is an incredible piece of work, and it's a must-listen to be seen and listen to! by a man who has done it. and listen in on what they do to make sure you get the most out of their day to day life in the most amazing place in the savannah by being there by watching them do their best to make the most of what they can do the most they can the most important thing they have to do and how to be the best they can be

Transcript

Transcripts from "The Joe Rogan Experience" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.
00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
00:00:12.000 How are you, sir?
00:00:13.000 What's going on, man?
00:00:14.000 Very good.
00:00:14.000 What an incredible piece of work you put together.
00:00:18.000 I mean, I'm so impressed and I loved it so much.
00:00:23.000 I mean, I don't even know where to begin.
00:00:26.000 Well, I'm very pleased you liked it.
00:00:29.000 You tell me, where do you want to begin?
00:00:32.000 How did it start?
00:00:33.000 Like, how long did it take, first of all, to get embedded to the point where they allowed you to be around them like that?
00:00:41.000 Okay, so, I mean...
00:00:43.000 We should tell everybody it's Chimp Empire. 1.00
00:00:46.000 It's Chimp Empire, yeah. 1.00
00:00:47.000 So a four-part series chronicling this unusual period in the Ngogo chimpanzees' lives, right?
00:00:56.000 So we are very, very lucky.
00:01:00.000 Basically, there's a scientific project out there that's been working at Ngogo for almost 30 years now.
00:01:08.000 So scientists, when they first arrived, the chimpanzees were not habituated to humans at all.
00:01:15.000 So they kind of came knowing there was a big group of chimps out there, but they didn't know anything about how many there were or who they were.
00:01:23.000 And they had to go through this process of habituation, which basically means sort of following them around and getting them used to humans observing them.
00:01:35.000 Yeah.
00:01:55.000 So after years of doing that, it makes it possible for a film crew to come in and literally walk in their footsteps.
00:02:04.000 So that process of actually being accepted into the chimpanzees group, we had this previous scientific project that enabled us to do that.
00:02:17.000 And in terms of for the series, we had like 400 filming days.
00:02:23.000 We knew that we wanted to be sort of observing them in detail and from sort of within the group.
00:02:31.000 And yeah, we were able to do that.
00:02:34.000 We had a great crew, lightweight equipment, and sort of followed them around constantly for about 400 days.
00:02:40.000 Wow.
00:02:40.000 Wow.
00:02:41.000 I mean, the footage you guys acquired, it's really amazing.
00:02:45.000 I've never seen anything like it.
00:02:47.000 It's like a chimp was carrying around a camera. 1.00
00:02:52.000 Was there any moment where they interacted with you guys where you thought maybe you were threatened or in danger?
00:03:01.000 You know, if you're filming lines or something from a sort of safari vehicle, you film them with a long lens and you're kind of spying on them from a distance.
00:03:13.000 So they might sort of clock that you're in a car from a long way away, but you're observing them and you're kind of not part of it.
00:03:21.000 You're looking in from the outside.
00:03:23.000 With chimps, partly because of the habitat they live in, right?
00:03:28.000 It's a dense rainforest.
00:03:30.000 So if you were 50 meters away, you can't see anything.
00:03:34.000 So you need to be close to the chimps to observe and film them.
00:03:39.000 And also, it wouldn't be a good idea to try and creep around and hide from them.
00:03:43.000 They wouldn't like that.
00:03:45.000 So you peacefully, gently make your presence known.
00:03:50.000 And they acknowledge you when you turn up.
00:03:54.000 They're certainly checking you out.
00:03:55.000 But then they go about their daily business and it's incredible how little interaction they have and how little that they sort of ever even come close to interacting with you.
00:04:12.000 Wow.
00:04:12.000 But what about if you have food or something that they want?
00:04:15.000 Do they get curious about things like that?
00:04:17.000 You know, they're very careful there.
00:04:20.000 The scientists for years have sort of made sure that, you know, the strict rules that you can't take – you take food in, but it's in concealed containers.
00:04:30.000 You don't eat in front of the chimps.
00:04:32.000 That's exactly the sort of thing that could cause a situation if there was some association with food or something that you had that they wanted.
00:04:41.000 So that's really carefully managed and they don't associate you with food and they just treat you as a sort of passive observer.
00:04:53.000 Having said that, you know, you're right in there and, you know, they could be just sitting around peacefully sort of playing or grooming each other or they could be doing something quite aggressive and they could be fighting or they could be patrolling for another group or hunting.
00:05:09.000 And then, even though none of it is sort of targeted at you, they are behaving in a way that can be quite intimidating around you.
00:05:21.000 I think the most disturbing thing to me with chimps is, well, there's two things.
00:05:28.000 One, that they murder each other. 0.70
00:05:29.000 But two, the hunting of the monkeys.
00:05:32.000 Watching them hunt and kill and eat monkeys is so weird.
00:05:39.000 Was David Attenborough the first one to capture that on film?
00:05:44.000 I don't know whether he was the first one.
00:05:46.000 I think Jane Goodall, back in the day, when she was doing the... 0.83
00:05:51.000 Well, she still has the Gombe Chimp site, but I think she and maybe a Nat Geo team, I think they sort of documented it for the first time.
00:06:02.000 And at that point, nobody knew this happened.
00:06:05.000 And then I think on a David Attenborough project, it was documented as well.
00:06:10.000 But Inungogo, you know, they're the biggest group ever known.
00:06:14.000 And they are a very strong and powerful group.
00:06:19.000 And there's a lot of males.
00:06:20.000 And it is often the males that are involved in the hunting.
00:06:23.000 And they have taken hunting monkeys to another level.
00:06:29.000 Was that...
00:06:30.000 What is that like to witness live?
00:06:33.000 Because primates eating primates, I don't know why, but it's just...
00:06:38.000 It doesn't feel right.
00:06:39.000 This is visceral reactions.
00:06:41.000 I think, yeah, it feels...
00:06:44.000 You know, because you kind of group primates together and we're sort of separate in a way.
00:06:50.000 That's how you think of them anyway.
00:06:53.000 And I think also you spend so much...
00:06:55.000 You know, if you're interested in chimps or you spend time around them...
00:06:59.000 You're constantly making connections between you and them.
00:07:03.000 So you're feeling, even though it's kind of a one-way thing, you're feeling those similarities all the time.
00:07:11.000 But then you see how they behave to other primates, and it's shocking.
00:07:18.000 You can't believe that, as sophisticated as they are and how connected you feel to them, You know, they don't feel that sort of level of compassion or empathy for other primates at all.
00:07:32.000 And they are, yeah, they hunt them regularly.
00:07:35.000 Yeah.
00:07:36.000 How many did you witness them kill?
00:07:39.000 It was quite a lot.
00:07:41.000 I mean, you know, it's a completely sort of true, authentic story that we documented.
00:07:49.000 So everything in there is what happened and in the order that it happened.
00:07:55.000 But obviously we were there for 400 days, so there's quite a lot of things that we filmed that didn't make it in.
00:08:00.000 Now we didn't keep anything back that we thought was relevant to the story, but there are sometimes other examples or other hunts.
00:08:07.000 Hunts is a really good example.
00:08:09.000 You know, we didn't put in the series every time they hunted a monkey because it would be a lot of hunting monkeys.
00:08:16.000 We saw it quite a lot.
00:08:19.000 You know, I remember on the second shoot, but it was the first time a new camera crew had come out.
00:08:27.000 I was with one of the camerawomen, Lauren, and she was a really experienced woman in filming in hostile and remote locations, but had never filmed chimps before and wasn't really used to the environment.
00:08:42.000 And on our first day out, they hunted a big black and white colobus monkey.
00:08:50.000 And, you know, I mean, it's everything that goes along with it.
00:08:53.000 It's the sort of the cooperation, the teamwork.
00:08:59.000 You know, there's a tension in the air when you know that they're going to hunt, they've decided to hunt.
00:09:05.000 But it's not on yet.
00:09:07.000 And they're sort of moving around the forest trying to get in a position where they can successfully catch this monkey.
00:09:14.000 But then once they go for it, then they're just chasing it.
00:09:18.000 And it's chaos.
00:09:20.000 And, you know, they are organized in a way they know exactly what they're doing.
00:09:25.000 But you're sort of running around after it and you quite often don't know exactly what's happening.
00:09:30.000 Where's the monkey?
00:09:31.000 Where are the chimps?
00:09:32.000 And she was just like... 0.60
00:09:35.000 Where am I? Like, what have I got myself into?
00:09:39.000 But she was absolutely amazing because she sort of, you know, held the shots and a lot of what she filmed that day is in the series, actually.
00:09:46.000 But, I don't know, the energy, when you're there and you're watching it, the energy of the whole thing takes over.
00:09:54.000 And, you know, maybe this isn't a good thing, but I think when you have seen it quite a few times and you accept it as part of the natural relationship between these two species...
00:10:06.000 Yeah.
00:10:23.000 Well, they're mainly fruit eaters, ripe fruit specialists.
00:10:28.000 So, you know, their territory is filled with fruiting trees.
00:10:34.000 And those trees fruit at different times and at different cycles.
00:10:38.000 And they have this incredible knowledge of all the trees that are in their territory.
00:10:44.000 And they have a good idea about when they're going to come into fruit as well.
00:10:48.000 So they're always moving around this vast territory and sort of checking out what's in fruit and what isn't.
00:10:53.000 And they'll know that something's not quite ripe yet, but that'll stay there.
00:11:00.000 And they'll come back and they'll feed off that tree in the days immediately after.
00:11:06.000 So that's really, to survive, they depend on fruit.
00:11:13.000 Monkeys seem to provide a different purpose in the chimpanzee community.
00:11:22.000 They're definitely valuable from a nutritional point of view, but there seems to be other things going on as to why they hunt.
00:11:33.000 I'm going to use some of the wrong terms here that scientists probably wouldn't support, but they do seem to enjoy it.
00:11:40.000 It does seem to provide some sort of cooperative function.
00:11:45.000 It's not sport, but at the same time, it's not purely for survival.
00:11:53.000 There's something else there.
00:11:55.000 And I think when you watch them share meat after they've hunted a monkey, that's when some of its sort of function becomes clear because who catches the monkey and then who gets a share of that becomes a really political business.
00:12:16.000 And that feels, you know, from our perspective watching it, that suddenly it all sort of fell into place a little bit because who gets meat and who doesn't has a sort of, it's very political.
00:12:31.000 Yeah, it seemed like that in the documentary, particularly when the female with the baby got some, and the one male that didn't got very upset and attacked her.
00:12:43.000 Yeah, that's a kind of a classic example of it, or...
00:12:51.000 Yeah, you know, they're all there trying to get a piece of meat because they want to, but it risks upsetting other chimps. 1.00
00:13:03.000 Because there's only so much meat.
00:13:05.000 There's only so much.
00:13:06.000 Not a lot of chimps.
00:13:07.000 Yeah, and the strongest alliances are being served in that situation.
00:13:14.000 So sometimes chimps get a scrap here or there. 0.86
00:13:18.000 In that particular incident, she made it away with quite a big share of the monkey.
00:13:25.000 And I think, you know, I wasn't there filming that particular moment, but I remember the crew saying when they came back, it did feel like that's trouble, actually.
00:13:35.000 Good for you for getting a share, but actually you're going to get into trouble somehow.
00:13:40.000 But because, you know, whether she was aware that there was somebody who's, you know, a high-ranking male was being excluded at the same time.
00:13:49.000 So there was this tension between the males.
00:13:52.000 And then this was further complicated by a female getting a share. 0.79
00:13:57.000 And then he just blew his lid.
00:13:59.000 It's just so fascinating to watch the communication and just the politics that are involved and all the negotiation and the way they treat each other.
00:14:13.000 Was that surprising to you that it was so complex?
00:14:21.000 Yes.
00:14:22.000 I mean, I've worked with chimps before.
00:14:25.000 You know, I'm not a chimps scientist. 1.00
00:14:27.000 You know, I'm not an expert in that sense.
00:14:29.000 But I have, you know, I've done a film myself a few years earlier on the Ngogo chimps.
00:14:36.000 And I also worked on another one years previously.
00:14:39.000 So...
00:14:40.000 So some of that I knew, and in part that was why we made the series, that we knew there was going to be this level of complexity.
00:14:49.000 But we'd never, and I don't think anyone has ever committed that much sort of filming resource and dedication to that intense of a period.
00:15:01.000 So we sort of seemed to be able to record it at a level of detail that I hadn't seen before and I don't think anybody else has.
00:15:08.000 And that, so that did surprise us.
00:15:12.000 Yeah.
00:15:12.000 And it surprised me personally.
00:15:14.000 It's the sense of awareness.
00:15:16.000 Like, you know, as far as we know, there's quite limited vocal communication with chimps.
00:15:24.000 You know, they make sort of, they make food grunts, which tells other chimps that they're enjoying some food. 0.93
00:15:32.000 They make pant grunts, which are a sort of, oh, oh, oh, oh.
00:15:37.000 This noise that they make to each other, which is a signal of submission.
00:15:42.000 And there are various calls.
00:15:44.000 But as far as we know, there's not a huge amount of complexity in that.
00:15:49.000 There's not a lot of language.
00:15:53.000 The amazing thing is that there seems to be some other level of communication going on, that they somehow know what each other are about to do.
00:16:05.000 Or in some circumstances they don't and they're surprised and it causes conflict.
00:16:09.000 But I think about particularly when you watch chimps go on patrol, right?
00:16:15.000 They patrol their borders, the borders of their territory.
00:16:19.000 And they do that in silence, and they do that for a reason, because they don't want anybody outside their territory to know where they are.
00:16:28.000 But how to coordinate that when they're not making any noise to each other at all?
00:16:34.000 They're looking at each other, and they appear to be reading each other's intentions, and they kind of know, without anybody saying anything, that we're going on patrol now.
00:16:47.000 This is it.
00:16:48.000 That was very fascinating.
00:16:50.000 Yeah.
00:16:50.000 Because I was trying to figure it out myself.
00:16:53.000 Like, how are they coordinating this?
00:16:55.000 Like, how do they know?
00:16:57.000 You know, I had endless conversations with the scientists at AT&GoGo about that.
00:17:06.000 You know, they're stumped as well because there aren't really any signals that this is about to happen.
00:17:14.000 And, you know, they'll be lying around or grooming or doing something completely disconnected.
00:17:22.000 And then one chimp will get up and just start walking off in the direction of the border and And then the others will join. 1.00
00:17:33.000 And then as they start moving closer to the border, the amount they vocalise just goes down and down and down to the point of being completely silent.
00:17:43.000 And yeah, it's a mystery.
00:17:45.000 There must be something going on there.
00:17:49.000 And often...
00:17:52.000 You know, maybe it's associated with specific individual chimps who the other chimps know that those guys are patrol leaders.
00:18:02.000 You know, years ago, in the early days when the scientists were first there, There was a chimp called Ellington, and he was the patrol leader when Ngogo was one big group. 0.97
00:18:17.000 He never showed any real interest in the dominance hierarchy, so he never made a play to be alpha.
00:18:24.000 Didn't really seem that bothered.
00:18:26.000 He was a high-ranking male, but he was not engaged in that internal dominance struggle at all, really.
00:18:33.000 But of all the patrols that they witnessed there, Ellington was the one who was present for the most and quite often leading them.
00:18:42.000 So he seemed to have this attraction to that behaviour or this ability or desire to To go and patrol their borders more than other chimps. 0.89
00:18:56.000 And maybe in some ways that explains the lack of communication, that it's actually the very fact of Ellington getting up and moving off for no apparent reason does communicate to the other chimps, okay, we're going to go on patrol now.
00:19:13.000 And, you know, the sort of modern version of Ellington, who was around during our filming period, is a chimpanzee called Rollins, who similarly has never shown any real interest to make it to the alpha position.
00:19:31.000 While all the other males are sort of, you know, jostling for position there, and you get the feeling that ultimately they all want to be on that top spot, and they'll just get as high as they can.
00:19:42.000 Rollins doesn't seem to have that desire, or certainly it doesn't appear so, but he is the patrol leader.
00:19:53.000 He's always out there in front and taking the Western group on patrols, and they do it a lot, and it's very often him. 0.59
00:20:03.000 And what was interesting was that his younger brother, who really is just an adolescent chimp, Damien, he was just kind of coming of age or just come of age when we started filming for Chimp Empire. 0.99
00:20:19.000 And he really grew into that role during our filming period.
00:20:24.000 He became Rowlands' sort of second-in-command during that period.
00:20:29.000 And they were so...
00:20:31.000 I mean, they look very similar anyway.
00:20:33.000 They're very different ages, actually.
00:20:34.000 They've got the same father, different mother.
00:20:37.000 Very different ages, but they look the same.
00:20:40.000 But they don't know that they're brothers.
00:20:45.000 But for some reason, they have this extremely close connection and both appear to have a real desire to engage in this territorial behaviour.
00:20:56.000 It's so wild to watch because there's sentries, there's ones that are on the lookout, they hold a particular post, and there's no communication.
00:21:08.000 I mean, that doesn't appear to be.
00:21:10.000 I mean, this is the thing.
00:21:11.000 I've often asked about, how is this functioning?
00:21:15.000 You know, you don't, like I say, other parts of their lives, they're making vocalizations and signals that even though you don't understand what they are, you can start to see patterns, like the food grunts, for instance.
00:21:28.000 You know, that's a very, it's a unique sound, and they make it when they're enjoying food.
00:21:33.000 And then the rest of chimps gather and they enjoy the same food.
00:21:37.000 So there's a clear way to observe that and to try and understand what it means.
00:21:45.000 But patrols are, yeah, they've, you know, we know a lot about them through the scientists at N'Goga and through observing them ourselves, but there are mysterious elements to it that nobody understands.
00:22:01.000 Do you think it's taught behavior, like the main ones had to learn this out of necessity and then everybody else sort of observed this behavior and recognized the importance of it?
00:22:14.000 I think it's a good point because...
00:22:17.000 We were thinking about that a bit.
00:22:20.000 When we were there, so Burgle, this young chimp who was just sort of coming of age, he started attending patrols. 1.00
00:22:30.000 So he's young, he's only 10 years old.
00:22:32.000 But he's an orphan so he'd always hung out with older males anyway.
00:22:37.000 And during our filming period he just really started becoming a more frequent attendee of these patrols.
00:22:44.000 Now they're dangerous and most younger chimps won't do that.
00:22:50.000 But, yeah, you wonder whether that's where it kind of starts, that you're mimicking the chimpanzees that you want to be friends with, and you want to be like, and you know that this is just something you see them do, 0.51
00:23:06.000 so you do it with them.
00:23:09.000 And if you do it regularly enough...
00:23:12.000 Exactly that.
00:23:14.000 You don't need to communicate that much.
00:23:18.000 You all know each other extremely well.
00:23:20.000 You know by the way you're walking and the direction you're heading and who's there, what it is you're doing.
00:23:28.000 So maybe there's just a lot of that.
00:23:31.000 Did you wonder if somehow or another there's some sort of telepathy?
00:23:36.000 I mean, some sort of communication that we don't understand, whether it's pheromones or something?
00:23:44.000 Personally, I wondered all sorts of those things.
00:23:48.000 You know, what is it?
00:23:50.000 Is there some other signal?
00:23:53.000 You know, I mean, until there's proof for that, it's just pure speculation, but there's a gap in the understanding there, from a scientific point of view.
00:24:06.000 And, you know, like I say, if they were here today, the scientists from Rungoga, they would be saying the same thing, that we don't know exactly how those patrols are instigated and how the chimps involved know that they're on patrol.
00:24:21.000 We do not know that.
00:24:22.000 So, you know, that leaves your imagination to run wild a little bit.
00:24:28.000 Certainly the way that...
00:24:30.000 I mean, I think telepathy is maybe a bit strong, but I mean, who knows?
00:24:35.000 We don't know that it's not happening.
00:24:39.000 I imagine, from my personal point of view, there seems to be quite a lot of sort of signalling through eye movement.
00:24:50.000 Again, this isn't supported by the scientific data necessarily, but...
00:24:58.000 There's, you know, they're very sensitive to where each other are looking, or at least they appear to be.
00:25:06.000 And I remember one chimp, he sadly died, although he leaves a lot of offspring at N'Gogo. 1.00
00:25:16.000 But there was a chimp that featured in a film I made a few years ago at N'Gogo, and his name was Pinsa.
00:25:23.000 And when I first saw shots of Pinsa, I felt this, like, something different about this chimp. 1.00
00:25:31.000 And I don't know what it is.
00:25:33.000 And in hindsight, I can't really believe that I couldn't spot it, but there was something that just seemed very human about him.
00:25:40.000 I was sort of looking more closely, and I realised Pinsa had sort of completely white sclera, like you and I, right?
00:25:50.000 So, you know, when I look over like that, you know exactly where I'm looking, and that's a very, it's an important part of human cooperation.
00:25:59.000 We follow each other's gaze, and therefore you know what it is I'm interested in, or maybe what I'm about to do.
00:26:07.000 But in chimps, I was reading around it after I saw this chimp pincer with his white sclera, whites of the eyes. 1.00
00:26:16.000 Officially, chimps don't have this characteristic.
00:26:20.000 They're supposed to all have, like, brown...
00:26:25.000 Where we have whites of the eyes, they have brown.
00:26:27.000 So the difference in color between the iris and here is less similar.
00:26:33.000 Oh, there we are.
00:26:34.000 Okay, I mean, it's a good one.
00:26:39.000 That's not even the best sort of picture of Pinsa.
00:26:42.000 And obviously you can see a bit of discoloration.
00:26:45.000 They look like quite unhealthy whites of the eyes there.
00:26:48.000 He has a very defined difference between his iris and whites of the eyes.
00:26:54.000 So with Pinsa, even at a distance, you can see where he's looking.
00:26:59.000 That may not seem like much, but in a species where we don't fully understand their communication or they appear to be doing things without any vocalizations, I wondered, like, you know, how come Pinsa's got this and what impact does it have?
00:27:18.000 I talked to, you know, there are other examples, actually, and there was a chimp in Gombe, I think he was called Mr. Wurzel, who had a very good example of whites of the eyes as well. 0.50
00:27:31.000 But we started looking into it at Ngogo, and I started talking to the scientists about it.
00:27:39.000 And they were like, well, yeah, Pencil does have whites to the eyes.
00:27:42.000 We've never really thought about it that much.
00:27:45.000 And it's not that they didn't notice, but as filmmakers with our lenses and things, we're often looking at the chimps in a level of detail that the scientists don't see every day.
00:27:58.000 So in a way, we're sort of providing them with some sort of visual data that was of interest.
00:28:06.000 And actually, they did a proper study on it at N'Gogo and tried to find how many chimps at N'Gogo had this sort of whites of the eyes.
00:28:17.000 And they found, I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was quite a reasonable percentage of it.
00:28:24.000 You know, Pincel's a great example, but had some version of that.
00:28:28.000 They don't know why this is, but in my sort of excited sort of way, I was thinking, well, here's the biggest group of chimps ever known.
00:28:38.000 They cooperate on levels that you don't see regularly in other chimpanzee groups.
00:28:44.000 You know, they're on these territorial boundary patrols all the time.
00:28:48.000 They hunt all the time.
00:28:50.000 They're very successful on a cooperative level and they appear to be doing these things in silence.
00:28:57.000 What role do these whites of the eyes play?
00:29:00.000 And, you know, anecdotally, the scientists kind of agreed that there was, you know, there's a possibility that it does play some role.
00:29:11.000 Like I say, you know, they're scientists, you know, so it's different.
00:29:16.000 They need the data to support that.
00:29:18.000 But there was, you know, what's interesting about Pinsa is that even though he never made it to the top either, but he fathered a huge number of offspring and he was always there on these cooperative behaviours.
00:29:35.000 So he's as if there's a hunt going on, Pinsa's around.
00:29:38.000 So this was, like I say, it was just my hypothesis from a non-scientific point of view, but I thought he played a sort of disproportionate role in sort of cooperative behaviours.
00:29:53.000 But again, it's just an area...
00:29:56.000 They know an absolute ton about the chimps in Gogo.
00:29:59.000 It is incredible, from behaviour, genetics, everything.
00:30:04.000 They've studied that group of chimps very thoroughly.
00:30:07.000 But there's still a lot they don't know.
00:30:09.000 So this whites of the eyes characteristic, this is a very unusual characteristic.
00:30:15.000 It's very unusual genetic variation.
00:30:19.000 It is.
00:30:20.000 I mean...
00:30:20.000 Do his offspring have this?
00:30:24.000 That's exactly what the scientists wanted to know, because obviously for it to be of evolutionary benefit, it needs to persist.
00:30:36.000 His offspring don't actually, not in a way that, you know, if every kid that Pinsa had came out with these eyes, you would suddenly think, well, he has a little mutation.
00:30:49.000 He's been reproductively successful.
00:30:53.000 And this could help and it could actually change.
00:30:58.000 But no, they didn't find that, actually.
00:31:01.000 So, you know, for instance, Rollins, who's the patrol leader in the West, that's Pence's son.
00:31:10.000 And he doesn't have that.
00:31:12.000 He's got incredible eyes, actually.
00:31:14.000 They're very piercing, but he doesn't have the same eyes.
00:31:16.000 How common is that variation?
00:31:19.000 I say we because the scientists generously made me an author on the paper and I think, you know, I didn't do any of the real science work on it at all.
00:31:32.000 But I think because of the conversations we were having, it sort of inspired that particular study.
00:31:40.000 I think they found that there was, again, don't quote me on the numbers, but something in the order of sort of 13 individuals at N'Gogo.
00:31:51.000 So a non-trivial percentage.
00:31:55.000 That sounds very science-y, but it means that it was a significant percentage, enough to take note of.
00:32:04.000 And And that's as far as the study's got.
00:32:08.000 They don't really understand the impact of that, if it has any impact at all.
00:32:13.000 You know, it could just be random variation.
00:32:16.000 And because N'Gogo is such a huge group... 1.00
00:32:21.000 You know, you would expect to see more variety and more incidences of things that occur on low levels.
00:32:33.000 So they still really don't understand the role of that.
00:32:38.000 But it was interesting to me on two levels.
00:32:41.000 I thought it was fascinating because it made me just wonder about what's going on behind those eyes.
00:32:46.000 But also as a human, you just engage with pincer in this, you know, it's like suddenly there's a part of his face that feels a lot more familiar.
00:32:56.000 I remember one of the scientists who was there years ago when I was there, Kevin Potts.
00:33:03.000 And like I say, they'd say different things around the fire at night as to what they'd say in the scientific papers.
00:33:11.000 I remember Kevin going, oh, I'm totally with you on Pinsa.
00:33:15.000 And he said, honestly, someday I'll be out there following Pinsa around and he's just sitting there close to me.
00:33:21.000 And I just think, any minute he's going to just turn around and say, what are you doing, Kevin?
00:33:30.000 There he is.
00:33:31.000 Yeah.
00:33:31.000 I mean, look at those eyes.
00:33:33.000 That's wild.
00:33:35.000 He's...
00:33:35.000 So unusual.
00:33:36.000 He was remarkable.
00:33:37.000 I mean, that's Kevin Langegraver, one of the scientists from Ngogo that...
00:33:43.000 Yeah, I mean, everybody loved Pinsa and everybody was very, very engaged with him.
00:33:50.000 But even at a distance, you see.
00:33:52.000 Yeah.
00:33:53.000 You see, what's he thinking?
00:33:54.000 What is he about to do?
00:33:57.000 Um...
00:33:58.000 And you have to wonder, it makes us think that.
00:34:01.000 So, are the other chimps reading anything from that?
00:34:06.000 Was there any correlation between chimps that have that characteristic and specific roles they play in the tribe?
00:34:15.000 Well, I mean, as we said, it's, you know, it's a small portion of them and very little sort of, they've done no specific study on it.
00:34:27.000 But Pinsa was the best example.
00:34:33.000 He appeared to be more involved in the cooperative behaviours than your average chimp. 1.00
00:34:40.000 You know, that's what, you know, the scientists in Gogo were saying, you know, when there's a hunt, Pinsa's there.
00:34:46.000 You know, when there's a patrol, he's there.
00:34:48.000 But chimps without white sclera would be doing that as well. 0.55
00:34:53.000 The interesting thing about Pinsa was how many offspring he had.
00:34:56.000 You know, he never...
00:34:57.000 He was actually a low-ranking male his whole life.
00:35:00.000 And he had the same number of offspring as the alpha male at the time.
00:35:06.000 So he is an alpha male that sort of dedicated his entire life to knocking off other guys on his way to the top and all the stress associated with being an alpha male at N'Gogo.
00:35:19.000 And actually, you know, ultimately it's all about having kids.
00:35:23.000 And he had fewer kids than Pinter, who had just hung out at number 18, number 19, you know, shying away from fights, but was very successful.
00:35:34.000 But those things could be completely unrelated because...
00:35:39.000 Pinsa was also fascinating in that he had a different sort of strategy with females as well.
00:35:45.000 He spent a lot of time with females in ways that some of the higher ranking males didn't.
00:35:52.000 So they wouldn't really spend much time with the females, concentrate on their male relationships.
00:35:59.000 And then when the females, you know, were in a reproductive state, an oestrus, then they'd go, alright, okay, now it's time, and use their position to gain access to her. 0.98
00:36:10.000 Whereas Pinsa played the more sort of girlfriend-type game.
00:36:15.000 He'd spend a lot of time with females, even when they weren't reproductively... 0.68
00:36:20.000 In that state.
00:36:22.000 So it wasn't for immediate benefits.
00:36:25.000 But he spent a lot of time.
00:36:27.000 He put the hours in.
00:36:29.000 And yeah, the Ugandan field trackers, they used to love Pinsa.
00:36:36.000 And they used to describe these different female chimps as Pinsa's girlfriends and Pinsa's wives, depending on how much time he spent with them.
00:36:44.000 But he spent a lot of time with females. 0.73
00:36:46.000 So...
00:36:47.000 Is it anything to do with the whites of the eyes?
00:36:50.000 He was just a fascinating chimp and he did things in a bit of a different way to what your average male chimp is expected to do. 0.98
00:36:59.000 It's so interesting that he has that characteristic and then he also exhibits behavior that's slightly more human.
00:37:09.000 And clever.
00:37:11.000 I totally agree.
00:37:13.000 You're encouraging me in loads of ways in which the scientists are like, you've got to.
00:37:17.000 There's no proof for that, James.
00:37:18.000 There's no proof for that.
00:37:19.000 It's okay to speculate.
00:37:21.000 I'm with Joe now, so we can go down there.
00:37:23.000 But yeah, I mean, you can get really fascinated and carried away with those things.
00:37:31.000 And the thing is, there's loads we just simply don't understand about it.
00:37:35.000 So all of that is possible.
00:37:37.000 But yeah, in scientific world, you need that proof, that data to support it.
00:37:43.000 But like I said, privately, everybody adored Pinsir and was fascinated by him and knew there was something different.
00:37:50.000 Well, I appreciate the intellectual discipline, separating it that way and saying there is no real scientific evidence.
00:37:57.000 But my goodness, it's so fascinating.
00:38:00.000 The whole thing was incredible.
00:38:02.000 I mean, I feel like I learned more watching those chimps from your documentary than anything.
00:38:07.000 And I've been obsessed with chimps, like you see with a skull and everything, my whole life. 0.63
00:38:12.000 I think they're so interesting.
00:38:15.000 They're so close to us.
00:38:16.000 I mean and you know at one point in time we were sort of in the same group of hominids and something happened to us and they sort of remain the same. 1.00
00:38:26.000 I think out of all the animals that human beings have ever studied, none of them are as fascinating as chimpanzees.
00:38:33.000 Because of our direct connection to them, our close relation to them, I totally agree.
00:38:40.000 I mean, you know, some people love animals because they're different in different ways.
00:38:45.000 And some people don't like chimps because they're very similar in some ways that are really good and in some ways which are quite dark.
00:38:54.000 You know, there are lots of similarities.
00:38:56.000 You know, there are important differences as well, and I think that is what makes them so fascinating.
00:39:03.000 If they were really, really similar, then it would be too similar.
00:39:11.000 The intrigue is sort of where does that similarity end and the differences begin, and I think...
00:39:19.000 That's a very personal experience watching chimps.
00:39:23.000 I think that's why people find it so cool as well.
00:39:26.000 You relate to different qualities in them as a species or different individuals.
00:39:31.000 I hope that's what we did for Chimp Empire because we tried to pick a real range of perspectives. 1.00
00:39:43.000 Because they are complex creatures.
00:39:46.000 They are all different.
00:39:48.000 And, you know, you can say chimpanzees are like this or chimpanzees are like that or a chimpanzee of this age does this or that.
00:39:55.000 And some of those generalisms are true and are useful.
00:40:02.000 But that sort of individual variation, that difference in personality from chimp to chimp that really affects what happens to them and what they do and who they have relationships with,
00:40:17.000 that's what's really fascinating.
00:40:19.000 And I think as a human just, yeah, you gravitate towards different qualities and different chimp characters. 0.99
00:40:27.000 No, I think you did a fantastic job of highlighting that.
00:40:30.000 It's so compelling and so interesting.
00:40:35.000 What is it like to be embedded with this tribe?
00:40:40.000 For so long and then go back to regular civilization.
00:40:44.000 Is there like a bit of an adjustment period?
00:40:47.000 Well, we were there as a team.
00:40:50.000 We were there for about 400 days.
00:40:53.000 So that's a huge, totally missed.
00:40:59.000 The team members, our human team members, swapped in and out.
00:41:04.000 So the camera crew, which was made up of four people usually, two on each group, they'd do sort of between six weeks and two months at a time.
00:41:17.000 And then they'd come out and leave the forest, leave Uganda, come back home, get their lives in order, you know, have some rest.
00:41:23.000 And then they'd come out for another two months when the second team was finished, and we sort of tag-teamed the camera crews.
00:41:30.000 I was not out nearly as often as the camera crew, so I personally would go out at the start of the shoots and help set up with the camera teams and introduce them to what we were trying to do and the characters we were following and how we wanted to film them.
00:41:51.000 At the same time, it's a real sort of observational documentary.
00:41:58.000 So my role in it was to try and give them a good sense of the overall approach that we were taking, the dedication that we wanted to film specific characters day after day after day,
00:42:15.000 and that Only after filming them, in that sort of level of commitment, are we going to really get a sense of who they are.
00:42:24.000 And that involves filming chimps when they're not doing stuff that's very interesting.
00:42:29.000 I remember early days, Gus, who's one of my favourite chimps, the antisocial adolescent, I just thought he was going to be an interesting character from the start.
00:42:43.000 But the camera team who were sort of tasked with following him for miles and hours and hours during the day, they were coming back at the start and going, you know, I don't know about this Gus guy.
00:42:53.000 He doesn't do a lot and he's often on his own.
00:42:57.000 And they'd be hearing all this commotion over this other part of the forest.
00:43:01.000 And as a camera person, it's like...
00:43:03.000 I'm filming the guy who doesn't do anything.
00:43:05.000 Right.
00:43:06.000 Where's Jackson?
00:43:07.000 I can hear Jackson kicking off.
00:43:09.000 And, you know, they're jealous of the people who had the more sort of immediately exciting targets.
00:43:15.000 But that was what we had to do to bring that diversity of characters to life is that, you know, some characters won't do a lot on a day-to-day basis.
00:43:25.000 But then when they do...
00:43:27.000 And you're fully invested in them and you're with them.
00:43:31.000 And it was his inactivity that was kind of Gus's story, actually.
00:43:35.000 He was often on his own, which meant he wasn't doing a lot because he's just him in the trees.
00:43:41.000 But then when he came out of that sort of isolation and tried to groom someone, desperately trying to make a friend, you were with him.
00:43:49.000 You know, you're like, oh, this guy, he's coming to the group.
00:43:52.000 Maybe he's going to Maybe someone's going to groom him back.
00:43:55.000 So it was, yeah, it was important to follow that range of characters.
00:44:00.000 But being sort of immersed for that long, you know, it's an incredible experience.
00:44:06.000 And I think that for everybody involved in it, that was part of it.
00:44:12.000 You're living, you literally live within the N'Gogo chimpanzee territory because the The scientific study has a camp.
00:44:21.000 It's like this small island in the middle of the Ngogo territory.
00:44:27.000 It's a completely pristine rainforest in every direction, but there's a little clearing, and it's been there for decades.
00:44:36.000 And there's a selection of sort of tents and little log cabins, very low impact and small, but that's where the scientists and the Ugandan field trackers stay every year when they go out there.
00:44:48.000 And we stayed there.
00:44:50.000 But being immersed in it, even at night time, you know, where you can hear the sounds of the forest and you know the chimps are out there sleeping not that far from you, That really helps with engaging in their lives, actually.
00:45:05.000 Had we been able to sort of like nip in and out and stay in a hotel outside, you know, everybody wanted, you know, you miss the comforts a lot, you know, and when you do get out, you love it.
00:45:17.000 But it was an important part of the process to be properly immersed and to live in the forest and it just, it helped you sort of feel what they feel a little bit.
00:45:28.000 I would imagine that the coordination of filming and then the editing process of trying to piece together a narrative is incredibly complex and difficult because you have 400 days of footage that you want to boil down to four shows.
00:45:48.000 It is very difficult.
00:45:50.000 And I think, you know, we couldn't know, we had ambitions for it, but we couldn't know how successful we were going to be at it.
00:46:00.000 You know, I mean, I'm...
00:46:03.000 We managed to film a lot more than I ever expected.
00:46:08.000 So the schedule and the technical workflow, you know, batteries charging, how you offload all the footage each day, the dailies.
00:46:18.000 All of that stuff was sort of based on an assumption that we wouldn't have the level of access that we actually had.
00:46:26.000 And the team was so good.
00:46:29.000 And the cameras had evolved quite a lot since I was filming Chimps even a few years previously.
00:46:37.000 So we got an enormous amount of footage.
00:46:42.000 It's also just working with a team of scientists who just totally believed in it and enabled us to get that level of access, helped us predict what was going to happen, where they were going to go.
00:46:54.000 So we filmed a lot more than I ever expected.
00:47:00.000 And yeah, condensing that down and simplifying it into a four-part series was a huge challenge.
00:47:10.000 Like I said, from the beginning, we were totally disciplined about certain things, you know.
00:47:18.000 However, we were going to tell the story that unfolded over that 18 months.
00:47:25.000 There's not the option to make things up or create stories that didn't happen.
00:47:34.000 The challenge was going to be, what do we not use, basically?
00:47:44.000 We filmed a lot more than we ever needed and we did that in terms of range of characters as well.
00:47:51.000 There are whole character storylines that we filmed that didn't make it in.
00:47:56.000 So that's where we were, that's where our editing process and our sort of creative approach to it.
00:48:04.000 Was that we're going to be able to make these really dramatic and accessible stories by a mission, by what we don't have in.
00:48:16.000 But that process is sort of like a sculpting process.
00:48:21.000 You sort of come back with a hundred hours worth of footage off one shoot and we did six shoots.
00:48:27.000 And then you sort of go through that and just gradually sculpt it down to the characters and the moments in those character stories that you feel are the most interesting or reflect what really happened.
00:48:41.000 Now, what is that process like?
00:48:43.000 Well, first of all, you said you have these camps.
00:48:46.000 Is there electricity in these camps?
00:48:48.000 No, nothing.
00:48:50.000 So how are you recharging batteries?
00:48:53.000 So a combination of solar and generators.
00:48:57.000 So we had a couple of generators that we would stick on for certain little hour slots during the day.
00:49:05.000 And that would cover downloading the footage when it came back and also charging batteries and radios as well.
00:49:12.000 So we had a few electrical needs that...
00:49:15.000 That the scientists didn't have and weren't set up for.
00:49:18.000 So there were some things we needed to do.
00:49:20.000 Yeah, we had two generators.
00:49:23.000 We tried to use them as infrequently as possible because even though they were quiet for a generator, but still you don't want to be chugging away and using up fuel in a sort of low impact situation there.
00:49:37.000 But we did need a bit of power.
00:49:40.000 But we're always able to offload cards and charge batteries and then we're ready for the next day.
00:49:46.000 And then you have to do it again and again and again.
00:49:49.000 I would imagine that at the end of the day there probably has to be a very complex system of No,
00:50:05.000 no, no.
00:50:18.000 It's all that.
00:50:19.000 This is quite technical stuff.
00:50:21.000 If you're interested in that, I can get into it.
00:50:23.000 Yeah, please, please.
00:50:24.000 So, yeah, and we went through loads of sort of working out how do we make sense of this?
00:50:30.000 Did you coordinate this in advance before the expedition began?
00:50:33.000 Yeah, huge amount of work beforehand on all sorts of things.
00:50:38.000 So all the camera, we tested out a ton of cameras.
00:50:42.000 So there's lots of things on the technical camera side that we had to, and that involved going to local forests in the UK. This is in terms of capabilities.
00:50:52.000 Low light capability and weight and ease of use because, yeah.
00:50:59.000 Not to get distracted by that.
00:51:01.000 I'll come back to all the logging and things.
00:51:03.000 But the camera side, there's a scientist who was one of the first guys out called David Watts.
00:51:13.000 He's a professor at Yale.
00:51:15.000 He's a very big deal, very eminent scientist.
00:51:18.000 But he chose for his own personal purpose Interest to carry around a little camcorder.
00:51:25.000 Not from day one when he was there, but very early from when he first went to see the chimps in the early 90s.
00:51:32.000 He carried around a tiny little palm camcorder.
00:51:36.000 Mini DV tapes or something at the time.
00:51:38.000 And he's had various versions over the years as they've got.
00:51:41.000 A bit more modern, but something that's about 400 grams that he could just stick in his backpack with a bottle of water.
00:51:48.000 Over the years, he's filmed things that no film crew has ever managed to get.
00:51:54.000 Now, he films them like a scientist.
00:51:57.000 It's video data for him.
00:51:58.000 You know, he's not filming it for, you know, it's not a 4K Netflix production.
00:52:03.000 But he's just filmed moments in their lives that have just been impossible for film crews, carrying enormous equipment, very heavy tripods, so they're stable in the forest, giant long lenses.
00:52:17.000 Traditionally, film crews have only really managed to capture small parts of their lives.
00:52:24.000 Whereas David was filming these incredible things regularly.
00:52:28.000 It just felt like he had this amazing access.
00:52:32.000 And I remember thinking, if we can find some version of that where we have the same level of access that David has, but with cameras, with new technology that will deliver for a sort of 4K Netflix production.
00:52:48.000 You know, so in the end, I mean, if I had the camera on the table now, you'd be like, well, that doesn't look very small.
00:52:54.000 And it was, you know, and the camera crew would be like, well, they were quite heavy, actually.
00:52:57.000 And you had to carry them around in backpacks.
00:52:59.000 But they were significantly lighter and easier to use than things that would normally be used on those sorts of shoes.
00:53:09.000 So that made an enormous difference.
00:53:11.000 And I think that...
00:53:13.000 But in a way, that's related to this huge volume of footage.
00:53:17.000 So we sort of came up with this fantastic setup with the cameras, but it allowed these camera people who were fit as well and just like super keen to just film all sorts of things that we didn't expect to get.
00:53:33.000 Then we have this huge challenge where we've got volumes of footage that, you know, often with things that you kind of, you know, you might film a grooming scene for sort of two hours and then in the end you only want to use a few shots of it.
00:53:46.000 You know, you're still representing what happened there, but you've got this huge volume of stuff to cut out.
00:53:52.000 So yeah, long months before we ever went there.
00:53:56.000 We're trying to work out how we're going to organize this stuff.
00:53:59.000 And we need to organize it, like, when it's fresh.
00:54:03.000 Because we need to know who's in that shot.
00:54:05.000 We can't just end up in the edit with, like, 300 hours of, like, who's that chimp again? 1.00
00:54:10.000 Oh, I think that's Carter.
00:54:12.000 You know, you just can't do any of that stuff.
00:54:14.000 So I imagine, like, I imagine reality series do a similar thing, actually.
00:54:20.000 The sort of observational docs where you're just filming a ton of people all the time or CCTV-style stuff.
00:54:26.000 But for us, we needed to straight away back up the footage and then assess what we had.
00:54:34.000 And every single shot needs to be logged with which chimps are in that shot, what are they doing, what are the conditions, and then there's all the data that's built into it that says when it was and even in some case GPS information.
00:54:51.000 So all of that went into every single shot.
00:54:54.000 So at the end of it, we've got this enormous library and this cool bit of software where you can go, I'm pretty sure I know the story beats that we've recorded with Gus, but let's just type in Gus and bring up every shot of Gus that we got over the year.
00:55:08.000 And it would go, and then that's Gus, everything that we've got of Gus.
00:55:14.000 And so, you know, we had to, once we knew the characters that we wanted to be viewing this story through, we were able to sort of concentrate on them and sort of build out of the narrative that we filmed there.
00:55:36.000 Yeah, build their storylines in parallel to the storylines with the group.
00:55:42.000 Now that there's cell phones that are capable of 4K, and you're talking about how this one scientist was able to get access with this very small camcorder, was there any thought of using cell phones?
00:55:58.000 Because they're so small now and the cameras are so good.
00:56:02.000 They are, and they are really good.
00:56:04.000 In the forest, they are less good, actually, because it's a real low-light situation.
00:56:13.000 And you don't have the ability with...
00:56:16.000 You can zoom in on most phones, can't you?
00:56:19.000 But the quality goes right down.
00:56:21.000 It's a digital zoom, so you're not using as much of the sensor.
00:56:25.000 Although they are extremely impressive, and when you're in a situation with loads of light, the images look...
00:56:31.000 You can blow them up on a screen like that and they look good.
00:56:34.000 But they don't actually compare to professional cameras in that type of situation.
00:56:41.000 But when you're talking about this one scientist that had this very tiny camera and all the incredible footage that he was able to get, I would imagine that with cell phones today, particularly with these, there's various add-on lenses, little cases that you could put on a small cell phone.
00:56:57.000 You know what?
00:56:57.000 It wasn't...
00:56:58.000 I don't think we didn't think about it a lot because of the assumptions at the time was that it still wasn't going to be quite enough.
00:57:08.000 But I agree.
00:57:08.000 I mean, I think there's...
00:57:10.000 You know, you'd certainly...
00:57:12.000 They would be recording at a level that you wouldn't have been able to before.
00:57:18.000 I still think we...
00:57:19.000 Our compromise was to try and get the highest quality possible whilst getting that access.
00:57:26.000 So like I say, if I actually got the camera out now, you'd be going like, that looks like a pretty big deal.
00:57:33.000 You know, it's bigger than these cameras, for instance.
00:57:35.000 But...
00:57:36.000 But it was still relatively small compared to most nature show setups.
00:57:43.000 So when you're filming, you film for 400 days.
00:57:48.000 How long is that editing process?
00:57:51.000 So, we went through like a huge pre-editing process, which is what I was talking about earlier.
00:57:59.000 Going from that, right, this is everything that we've shot, reducing it right down to, you know, the best bits and the most relevant scenes that we'd filmed.
00:58:10.000 You know, Gus is quite a good example.
00:58:12.000 We would, you know, film him for hours, not doing very much and looking...
00:58:18.000 Like he was struggling socially.
00:58:21.000 So you don't actually need to make that point and to share that experience with the viewer.
00:58:26.000 You only actually need a small amount of that.
00:58:29.000 So there's a phase of it where you sort of just reduce it down to everything that you think.
00:58:35.000 Boil it right down.
00:58:36.000 This was the story that we recorded in its most representative chunks.
00:58:43.000 And that really helps.
00:58:44.000 You get it right down to a manageable level.
00:58:48.000 And then looking at that and thinking, okay, well, how are we going to divide up this narrative across four episodes?
00:59:01.000 And obviously that's where we had quite a lot of choice.
00:59:05.000 You know, it's...
00:59:07.000 The story unfolded in a particular way, but we could choose when to introduce the different groups and we could choose how much to expand certain parts of the story and then how much to sort of compress times during that narrative that we recorded.
00:59:30.000 So there are quite a lot of creative choices there.
00:59:33.000 Like I say, the overall series at the end, that's what happened.
00:59:38.000 But there's a whole load of bits that we sort of compressed because you didn't necessarily need to see this period between that and that, and it wasn't relevant for the story.
00:59:52.000 But yeah, editing, so a lot of work done before the edit, because you couldn't have expected any editors to come in and just go, well, you know, there's the rushes.
01:00:03.000 Make us a good opening show, will you?
01:00:07.000 So loads of work done before the editors got on board.
01:00:12.000 But then, yeah, four different editors, about 20 weeks per episode.
01:00:20.000 Wow.
01:00:21.000 Wow.
01:00:24.000 Yeah, so what's that, like five months or something?
01:00:27.000 But you know, that sounds like a really long time, and it is, but you have to be in a position to share a cut with, in this case, Netflix, about halfway through that process.
01:00:38.000 So actually, you know...
01:00:41.000 Putting together a show that really works and illustrates the story that you've captured in a dramatic way, it takes quite a lot of work.
01:00:57.000 And that needs to be representative of where you're going by the time you first show it.
01:01:02.000 I would imagine that's one of the biggest challenges of this whole piece, this whole series.
01:01:08.000 Yeah, I mean, lots of different challenges along the way.
01:01:13.000 And in some ways, like each time you knock off one of the challenges, you know, you feel a bit more relaxed about it.
01:01:20.000 I personally, I love being in the edit.
01:01:23.000 That's sort of my happy place.
01:01:25.000 I mean, I like being in the field.
01:01:27.000 I used to like it more when I was younger and fitter, actually.
01:01:30.000 Like, it's...
01:01:31.000 It's getting harder.
01:01:33.000 I mean, it's not like I'm an old man or anything, but the camera crews are younger and fitter than I am and lighter.
01:01:42.000 But the edit is, you know, that's...
01:01:46.000 I love that part of the process.
01:01:49.000 And, you know, you can really...
01:01:53.000 You can edit shows in a lot of different ways, and the style and tone and the music and things.
01:02:01.000 A lot of the overall feel of the series starts to come to life.
01:02:09.000 And I think we are fantastic.
01:02:12.000 Editor Sam Rogers, who I've worked with a few times before, and he did the first episode.
01:02:19.000 And he did a really, really good job.
01:02:21.000 Great instincts for it.
01:02:23.000 And we were very well prepared.
01:02:25.000 And we, you know, initially we didn't do any sort of narration on it because we wanted to sort of do a test of like, how much are you going to just engage with these chimps?
01:02:39.000 And not be told what's happening or what might be about to happen or what that means.
01:02:45.000 Let's just do it without any commentary at all to start with.
01:02:49.000 And it was a fantastic exercise because then we showed Sarah at Netflix that first cut.
01:02:56.000 And everyone loved it.
01:02:58.000 And you could follow it.
01:02:59.000 And you were just like, you were right in there.
01:03:01.000 And you know, in a way, I sort of, in some ways, I missed that first version because it was kind of, it was an odd experience.
01:03:07.000 Just sort of like, no, just, we are just going to be following the chimps.
01:03:12.000 And the edit and the music and the sound is going to sort of tell us what's happening here.
01:03:18.000 You might have liked that because it was a very direct experience with the chimps.
01:03:24.000 Have you thought about releasing a different version that doesn't have narration?
01:03:30.000 It seems like you have so much footage.
01:03:32.000 I would imagine that it's just more people watching.
01:03:37.000 Yeah, I mean, in the end, because we've got Mahershala Ali and I just loved that part of the process as well.
01:03:45.000 So I think in the end, you know, I thought it was a great exercise, but actually, you know, we wanted it to reach a broad audience.
01:03:55.000 We did want another layer of thought process there and some interpretation.
01:04:04.000 And, you know, Mahershala did a fantastic job.
01:04:07.000 And I think that, you know, yeah, there are other voices we could have had on it that I may have sort of regretted and that may have taken something away from that.
01:04:17.000 And I think that that was, yeah, for me that sort of confirmed that, yeah, we lucked out with Mahershala and he was fantastic because it gave it something else.
01:04:28.000 It gave it an extra sort of conceptual That I think really, really helps.
01:04:36.000 It certainly makes it more relatable to humans.
01:04:39.000 It does, yeah.
01:04:40.000 It makes it easier to follow along, especially if someone is not completely fascinated with just observing chimp behavior with no narration.
01:04:49.000 Yeah, and the thing is, you can't, like stylistically, there's whole sections that you could follow actually without any narration.
01:05:00.000 But then that becomes quite an unusual experience if you go like 20 minutes without hearing a word and then Mahershala pops up because you need to know something here about what's at stake.
01:05:14.000 You know, and that's often how we sort of tried to shape the narration, was sort of on a need-to-know basis.
01:05:23.000 You know, I think we, you know, because the voice really worked, we sort of decided to use it a little bit more.
01:05:32.000 But our initial approach was, well, I think in certain situations, you know, for instance, Gus going to groom Abrams or whatever, You need to know what's at stake there.
01:05:45.000 You need to know that he doesn't actually have any grooming partners and that this sort of opportunity with a chimp like Abrams could change his situation. 1.00
01:06:00.000 And you could, you know, partly you could follow that visually, but I think it really, it helped sort of really solidifying some of those thoughts.
01:06:11.000 You have so much footage and four shows.
01:06:15.000 Has there been thought about expanding this and doing more episodes?
01:06:21.000 Yeah.
01:06:23.000 I mean, I think it would be hard because we sort of...
01:06:26.000 Because the series covers the true chronology of events.
01:06:32.000 So all the sort of real drama and real things that happened throughout that period...
01:06:41.000 You know, represented in the series.
01:06:44.000 So quite a lot of the footage that we didn't use are just sort of other examples of the same thing that we didn't, you know, less descriptive versions of, you know, or repeated behaviours and things.
01:06:58.000 So there wasn't a lot of things that you sort of feel, ooh, there's a whole other show in there.
01:07:02.000 And also they weren't things that, you know, how the series concludes.
01:07:06.000 That was really at the end of our final shoot.
01:07:10.000 So, the footage that we have is sort of supporting material for everything that's sort of out there.
01:07:19.000 But, I mean, you know, the story still continues in GoGo.
01:07:25.000 You know, things are still going on there and still changing.
01:07:30.000 Do you get updates?
01:07:31.000 Yeah.
01:07:32.000 So we're pretty close to all the scientists there and have been for years.
01:07:40.000 We're friends and stay in touch.
01:07:44.000 I'm seeing one of them tonight, actually, who lives in Austin.
01:07:48.000 But they are often texting things that are happening now that they know we'd be interested in.
01:07:58.000 Now, has there been thought about doing another series?
01:08:02.000 Because this has obviously been very successful.
01:08:05.000 Well, you know, I think...
01:08:07.000 I mean, it's hard to say.
01:08:08.000 You know, it's only been a few weeks.
01:08:10.000 So it's hard to say how successful it is yet.
01:08:15.000 Because Netflix doesn't tell you.
01:08:16.000 No, they don't tell you.
01:08:17.000 They're crafty with that. 0.96
01:08:20.000 Yeah, they are.
01:08:20.000 It's obviously anecdotally from people that I know.
01:08:23.000 I mean, so many people recommended it before I watched it.
01:08:26.000 I got so many text messages like, you must watch this.
01:08:28.000 This is right up your alley.
01:08:30.000 So many people told me about it.
01:08:31.000 Well, I think because of your interest, you might get a bit of a bias on the overall conversation on it, maybe.
01:08:39.000 I don't know.
01:08:39.000 I mean, I'm assuming.
01:08:42.000 Because people know you're in the chimps.
01:08:45.000 I think, yeah.
01:08:46.000 I mean, I read the Twitter feed each day.
01:08:48.000 I can't resist or refresh that and see what people are saying about it.
01:08:51.000 And really...
01:08:54.000 Yeah, I'm really excited about the feedback.
01:08:58.000 You should be.
01:08:59.000 But I don't know, yeah, whether it's going to get bigger or bigger or who knows.
01:09:05.000 I mean, I personally and the whole team who were involved in it, you just kind of fall in love with that place and the people who work there and all the chimps. 0.92
01:09:18.000 You know, whether we're filming or not, you want to find out what's happening.
01:09:23.000 Because you're following that story, whether you film it or not.
01:09:25.000 And I think we'll always be on a sort of like, you know, we want to find out.
01:09:30.000 Is Abrams in charge?
01:09:32.000 You know?
01:09:35.000 Yeah, there's things that are happening that we're constantly being updated about.
01:09:40.000 We'd love to go and do a second season, but I think that's...
01:09:44.000 Quite an undertaking.
01:09:45.000 It's a huge undertaking, but I think we learnt so much on the first one that I'm in a lot of the pain about how to do it.
01:09:57.000 It will be a much easier thing second time around.
01:10:01.000 But also seems like one of the most unusual situations where there has been these embedded scientists in this area for 30 years.
01:10:11.000 And these chimps are so accustomed to it.
01:10:13.000 I mean, it's like to try to reestablish that somewhere else.
01:10:18.000 Yeah.
01:10:18.000 And this is a very unusual group of chimpanzees too, right?
01:10:22.000 It is.
01:10:22.000 I mean, there are other chimpanzee sites, several other chimpanzee sites around Africa where they have a similar, you know, the chimps are habituated, long-term scientific projects.
01:10:35.000 You know, Jane Goodall being the perfect example. 1.00
01:10:37.000 You know, here...
01:10:38.000 Her project has been there long before the guys were studying Ngogo.
01:10:41.000 So that's much longer term.
01:10:43.000 You know, there's study sites in Thai and the Ivory Coast and Fongoli.
01:10:49.000 You know, there's many of them.
01:10:52.000 What's unique about Ngogo is as well as having that level of access and data and sort of so you just have so much information about the chimps but there's also just a ton of chimps.
01:11:05.000 And And they are quite unique in that the Ngogo territory is surrounded by forest in every direction.
01:11:13.000 Whereas at other sites, often, you know, chimpanzee habitats are sort of bordered by farmland or human settlements of some kind.
01:11:24.000 So they're quite sort of, it's a little wild pocket in amongst an area that is less wild.
01:11:32.000 And I think this is unique for study sites of chimps.
01:11:37.000 They have...
01:11:38.000 It's wild in every direction outside of there.
01:11:41.000 So that does impact their behaviour and their sort of group dynamics because...
01:11:48.000 The edge of their territory is not like some land they can't go on.
01:11:52.000 It's land they can take because it belongs to other chimps.
01:11:58.000 Whether you enjoy watching that aspect of chimpanzee behavior or not, there's another layer to what happens at N'Gogo.
01:12:11.000 You know, loads of other chimpanzee sites, they have different things that they do.
01:12:15.000 You know, for instance, in Fongoli, in Senegal, they use spears to hunt bush babies.
01:12:23.000 You know, there's sort of this, in every little, in every different chimpanzee site, there's like a An associated unique behavior or culture.
01:12:34.000 Scientists wouldn't call it culture, but a simple way of looking at it, there's different things that they do that are separate and different to other chimpanzees.
01:12:45.000 So there's observed chimpanzees that use spears?
01:12:49.000 There are, yeah.
01:12:50.000 I haven't observed any of them at all.
01:12:53.000 I've never been there or filmed that, but yes, they...
01:12:57.000 They use sticks.
01:12:59.000 But do they sharpen these sticks?
01:13:01.000 You know, I don't know.
01:13:03.000 And my partner, Rosie, actually made a film about those chimps.
01:13:07.000 We're quite chimpy in our household.
01:13:10.000 And she'll be able to answer that better.
01:13:12.000 But I know that they use spears, and I think they make spears.
01:13:19.000 So I don't know whether they sharpen them, but they certainly strip them down so that they are...
01:13:25.000 Like a spear.
01:13:27.000 And they jab in holes for bush babies.
01:13:32.000 What is a bush baby? 0.99
01:13:33.000 It's like a little nocturnal primate.
01:13:36.000 They're very cute.
01:13:38.000 Oh boy.
01:13:40.000 How conflicted is that?
01:13:42.000 I mean, just watch them tear the monkeys apart with their hands.
01:13:46.000 But having them use weapons and spear them.
01:13:51.000 Yeah.
01:13:51.000 Well, I mean, chimpanzees, you know, have used tools since Jane, well, Jane Goodall, they've used tools probably for thousands and thousands of years, we don't know.
01:14:00.000 But, you know, Jane Goodall discovered that many years ago.
01:14:05.000 So making, not just using tools, but making tools.
01:14:11.000 It's quite cool, isn't it?
01:14:12.000 That is so cool.
01:14:13.000 Interestingly, the Ngogo chimps, they do occasionally use a tool for something or other, but they're not. 1.00
01:14:22.000 In West Africa... 0.60
01:14:26.000 In the Ivory Coast, the chimpanzees there use big rocks to crack nuts, and they use sticks to fish for ants.
01:14:35.000 And same thing in Gombe and, like I say, in Fongoli, they use spears for bush babies. 1.00
01:14:42.000 So tool use is quite a big thing for chimps, generally, around Africa.
01:14:47.000 But at Ngogo, they're not big tool users.
01:14:52.000 And it's interesting.
01:14:54.000 They maybe have just never...
01:14:55.000 You know, tools are a solution to a problem for the gyms. 0.91
01:14:58.000 They identify that they need something and that tool will help get it.
01:15:04.000 And it feels that in GoGo that...
01:15:07.000 Actually, they've not really had that need.
01:15:11.000 Because of the fruit and because of the prevalence of monkeys?
01:15:15.000 Maybe.
01:15:16.000 It's such a rich environment.
01:15:18.000 Loads of fruit.
01:15:19.000 They've just hammered the monkeys there.
01:15:23.000 I remember, yeah, John Mutani, one of the scientists, saying, yeah, N'Gogo, they don't, you know, they don't use a lot of tools. 1.00
01:15:32.000 They cooperate on really interesting levels.
01:15:36.000 That's the thing that feels that is the identifying or the defining quality of the N'Gogo group. 1.00
01:15:45.000 It's their sheer population size.
01:15:47.000 They're just a massive group.
01:15:51.000 And maybe as a function of that, there's levels of cooperative behavior there that they achieve getting the things that they want through cooperation rather than tool use.
01:16:03.000 When you're observing them hunting after monkeys, is there speculation that there's two things going on?
01:16:12.000 That they're hunting the monkeys for food, but also that they're preventing the monkeys from eating the fruit?
01:16:18.000 Because they must be in competition with the monkeys for these prized resources.
01:16:23.000 Because, of course, the monkeys eat fruit as well.
01:16:25.000 They do.
01:16:27.000 I don't think that's a thing.
01:16:31.000 But I think the overriding thing is they're just like hunting the monkeys.
01:16:37.000 Because the thing is that does exist with other animals, with predators.
01:16:42.000 I think that coyotes, one of the reasons why they target cats, It's not just for food, but that cats are also predators.
01:16:49.000 Yeah.
01:16:50.000 You know what I don't know?
01:16:51.000 And I don't think I've ever really asked that specifically to the scientists there, but I'm guessing that there's so much fruit around You know, those sorts of things might be driven by a scarcity of food.
01:17:08.000 So therefore, take out your competitor for that food.
01:17:13.000 And I think what they'd probably say was that it's such a rich environment and actually they just seem to love hunting monkeys.
01:17:22.000 Which is a shame.
01:17:24.000 Is it a shame?
01:17:25.000 I don't know.
01:17:26.000 I don't know.
01:17:27.000 Well, it's hard, you know.
01:17:30.000 I feel like I've been desensitized to it a little bit.
01:17:33.000 So, you know, obviously don't go, yes, they've got that monkey.
01:17:36.000 Of course.
01:17:37.000 But you accept it.
01:17:40.000 And you...
01:17:41.000 Yeah, you don't...
01:17:43.000 I think if you're following the N'Gogo chimps, you... 1.00
01:17:48.000 You're sort of, like, on some level, you're kind of with them, really.
01:17:52.000 And therefore, you know, you're not, like I said, you're not rooting for them.
01:17:56.000 You don't really want them to do that, but you totally accept that they do.
01:18:01.000 But, you know, in previous years, there used to be a lot more monkeys there.
01:18:07.000 So the chimps are actually having a probably negative impact on the numbers of the monkeys.
01:18:17.000 But is this just, they have a very specific territory.
01:18:20.000 Yeah.
01:18:21.000 And this is just in their territory.
01:18:23.000 Yeah.
01:18:23.000 They're having a big impact.
01:18:25.000 So is there a prevalence of monkeys outside of their territory?
01:18:27.000 And do they ever go outside of their territory specifically to try to target monkeys?
01:18:34.000 I know that they go to areas of their territory or areas at the edge of their territory where they know there are more monkeys still.
01:18:43.000 Because, yeah, one time monkeys were much more common within their territory.
01:18:48.000 You know, they'd avoid the chimps or whatever, but there were known groups of monkeys there.
01:18:55.000 And now there are less.
01:18:57.000 Because they're so effective at hunting them.
01:18:59.000 Yeah.
01:19:00.000 There's one of the images of this torso of a monkey and they're just eating it.
01:19:07.000 And it's so weird because there's just something that's just so uniquely disturbing about watching a primate eat a primate.
01:19:20.000 Yeah, see?
01:19:21.000 It's like, it is what they do.
01:19:23.000 It is, yeah.
01:19:25.000 Unfortunately, if you follow chimps, and a lot of chimp groups do that, in fact, everywhere where you find chimps and monkeys in the same place, it happens, I think. 0.97
01:19:38.000 Yeah, it is part of what they do.
01:19:41.000 Do you find yourself rooting for the monkey to get away, or do you find yourself rooting for the chimp to get the monkey? 1.00
01:19:46.000 I mean...
01:19:47.000 Because you kind of want to capture...
01:19:50.000 The actual successful hunt.
01:19:53.000 I don't know.
01:19:54.000 Not necessarily, actually.
01:19:56.000 No?
01:19:56.000 No.
01:19:56.000 And I think that, you know, particularly the type of thing that we were doing, it wasn't sort of, you know, we want that behavior.
01:20:04.000 You know, we weren't going out to get behavior sequences.
01:20:06.000 We just wanted to film what happened.
01:20:08.000 And in a way, them attempting to hunt something and failing is also an interesting story.
01:20:16.000 Does that happen often, where they attempt to hunt monkeys and the monkeys get away?
01:20:21.000 It does happen, yeah, not very often.
01:20:24.000 Most of the time they're successful.
01:20:26.000 Yes, I think so.
01:20:28.000 And you do, I mean, having said I'm a bit desensitized to it, I think, you know, the natural thing is you're seeing a much bigger animal go after a much smaller animal.
01:20:39.000 So in almost everybody, there's an underdog there and there's, you know, you kind of, you are on some level thinking that Come on, if you just get out to that skinny tree, get out to that skinny branch, they won't follow you there.
01:20:54.000 You know, because that's the challenge on...
01:20:56.000 The monkeys try and get out right on the tips of the branches, which are...
01:21:00.000 You know, they won't hold the chimps white. 0.94
01:21:03.000 So that's the safe bit.
01:21:05.000 But then it's quite a precarious position, because where do you go from there?
01:21:10.000 You're just kind of delaying things, really.
01:21:13.000 Because they know exactly where you are.
01:21:14.000 It's hard, because, you know, those monkeys are...
01:21:18.000 They're complex creatures as well.
01:21:20.000 And I think, you know, if we were focusing on them a lot, we'd start to engage with them as individuals and, you know, it would feel different.
01:21:30.000 And it's important to remember that.
01:21:32.000 But, you know, the purpose of this series was we wanted to experience what it was like to be an Ngogo chimpanzee.
01:21:41.000 And from their perspective, monkeys are food.
01:21:44.000 Did you observe noticeable patterns in how they hunt or strategies of how they hunt these monkeys?
01:21:56.000 No, not.
01:21:57.000 I mean, not really.
01:21:59.000 Other than, like I said, there are sort of stages to it where, you know, it's not they'll just suddenly start hunting.
01:22:10.000 There'll be a process where one of the chimps might hear some monkeys or they might have gone looking for them in a particular area and there's different stages where they kind of know there's monkeys in the area and they're sort of feeling their way around and maybe they've heard a call and they're sort of making their way gradually over there.
01:22:32.000 And then when they identify an opportunity, right, okay, there's a group of monkeys here and they're up in that tree.
01:22:41.000 And then they can often be very quiet, a bit like being on patrol at that point where, you know, they're just kind of getting as close as they can and in positions where they can be most effective without making any noise and without scaring anything off.
01:23:01.000 And then generally it's sort of it takes just one chip to just go for it and then the chase is on so there's no element of surprise or anything it's just it's a rush and they're trying to corner the monkey or monkeys in positions in the trees where they can get to them.
01:23:21.000 One of the things that they observed in the David Attenborough capturing of this sort of behavior was that they will sort of ambush them.
01:23:30.000 They will set up traps.
01:23:33.000 Yeah.
01:23:34.000 You know, I think a lot of people sort of have different opinions about this and I think probably every hunt is different and I think sometimes you might observe those things and then in your mind get a sense that,
01:23:51.000 oh, this is how they must do it because during that hunt he was over there and he was over there and they appeared to do that.
01:23:59.000 In my experience, there didn't seem to be that sort of pattern of behaviour.
01:24:06.000 It was not as organised as that, actually, when it came to those parts of the hunt.
01:24:15.000 Also, it's a very difficult thing to observe and to film.
01:24:20.000 So you really, having said, we're getting amazing details of their lives.
01:24:27.000 But there are some activities that they do, like a hunt, where you're looking through windows in the canopy and you see a chimp leg it across there and over there and then suddenly someone's got the monkey. 0.81
01:24:39.000 And making sense of that...
01:24:42.000 You know, I think scientifically it's really hard.
01:24:45.000 But from a filmmaking point of view, you're capturing moments and you can piece together what's happened there.
01:24:52.000 But there's definitely things that you haven't seen that have gone on behind trees or leaves.
01:24:58.000 So I think it's hard to kind of know exactly how they do it.
01:25:04.000 Is there any concern while you're doing this that you're interfering in some sort of a way or that you're going to upset them, that you're getting in the way of the hunt or getting in the way of their natural behaviors?
01:25:16.000 It's a constant consideration.
01:25:20.000 You know, the worst thing we could possibly do is to go in there and try and observe the sort of real world of the Ngoga chimpanzees and then find ourselves having an impact on that, being sort of participating in it. 0.95
01:25:35.000 So that's not...
01:25:37.000 That's no longer the real world of the chimpanzees.
01:25:39.000 That's the world of the Ngogo chimps when they're sort of distracted or impacted by human observers. 1.00
01:25:46.000 So that would just ruin the whole point of it.
01:25:50.000 So it's a constant consideration.
01:25:55.000 Weirdly, and it does, I don't really have an explanation for it, and I've not really heard one that works for me, that oddly...
01:26:05.000 Apart from sort of acknowledging you, They just don't seem to be impacted by your presence at all.
01:26:15.000 They pretty much ignore you.
01:26:17.000 And chimpanzees are so spatially aware.
01:26:23.000 They live in this three-dimensional forest world where they can just go from tree to tree, horizontal, vertical.
01:26:32.000 They're very aware of everything that's around them.
01:26:37.000 You would assume in these chaotic moments that, you know, you might get in one's way or run into and it never happens.
01:26:44.000 And it's as if, but then again, you never see a chimpanzee run into a tree either.
01:26:49.000 You know, they know where everything is.
01:26:52.000 And for some bizarre reason, they're totally accepting of this sort of passive presence in the forest, these strange bipedal creatures that sort of follow and are close and sort of within, observing them.
01:27:08.000 And it's not like they acknowledge you.
01:27:11.000 They know you're there.
01:27:12.000 They're not just like, like I said earlier, you're not spying on them.
01:27:16.000 You're kind of part of it.
01:27:18.000 But they're not interested in you.
01:27:22.000 It's strange.
01:27:23.000 Until you're there and you're in it, it's sort of an impossible thing to describe and it's a very difficult thing to understand until you're actually right there.
01:27:34.000 And I think when something's kicking off and there's a lot of excitement and chaos within the group, if you haven't experienced that before, it's intimidating and you can't quite believe that you're not somehow going to get swept up in it.
01:27:52.000 But you don't at all.
01:27:54.000 And there's been decades of this happening at Ngogo where they accept this sort of passive presence in the forest.
01:28:05.000 I mean, it must be so weird.
01:28:07.000 You're there when they get up and you follow them around all day and... 0.98
01:28:15.000 You know, when they take a shit, when they're making friends with somebody, when they're doing anything that they're doing, you know, and you're just, you're there. 0.95
01:28:24.000 But they appear not to mind at all, and it doesn't appear to impact their behavior at all. 0.98
01:28:32.000 That's so fascinating.
01:28:34.000 How close do they get to the photographers, the humans, the camera people, like, So, you know, there are strict rules that can go on anywhere working with chimpanzees.
01:28:48.000 Because we're so similar, they're susceptible and vulnerable to sort of human infections.
01:28:56.000 So even things that don't really bother us, like a cough, if we had a cough or a cold, that would be quite dangerous to transmit.
01:29:03.000 Was this during COVID that you filmed all this?
01:29:05.000 You know, we started just after lockdown.
01:29:08.000 But we were prepared to do it before COVID kicked in.
01:29:13.000 Then COVID happened and the whole world shut down.
01:29:16.000 And then we got out there as soon as we could afterwards when things were starting to open up.
01:29:21.000 You know, because Uganda wouldn't let any flights in for a long time.
01:29:24.000 But as soon as they did...
01:29:26.000 We went out there, and we had to be tested regularly for COVID. People were worried about what would happen if a chimp got COVID. Naturally very worried.
01:29:38.000 But actually, in place already, there were, you know, you have to wear masks.
01:29:45.000 You can't go closer than seven metres.
01:29:49.000 If you're not feeling well or anything like that, you mustn't go and see the chimps.
01:29:56.000 And that's important because chimps, a common cold, can be lethal to chimps.
01:30:08.000 Yeah, so for that reason, you have to stay seven meters away from them in the forest.
01:30:13.000 That's not much.
01:30:15.000 It's not, no.
01:30:16.000 I mean, they say seven meters is an absolute bare minimum.
01:30:20.000 They encourage you to do about 10 meters.
01:30:23.000 I think it's just 20 feet.
01:30:25.000 Yeah, it's not a lot.
01:30:26.000 So how far is that?
01:30:27.000 Nothing that's across this room.
01:30:29.000 Yeah.
01:30:30.000 It's about the length of this room.
01:30:33.000 That's wild.
01:30:35.000 It's about the distance you should be.
01:30:37.000 And you make a concerted effort to make sure that's the case.
01:30:43.000 However, like I said, the chimps don't know that rule.
01:30:47.000 So you can do whatever you can to maintain that distance.
01:30:52.000 And, you know, if they come a little closer or come to sit down sort of, you know, within that seven meters, you move back slowly.
01:31:01.000 But you don't, you know, it's not advisable to sort of jump out of the way or, you know, you take your opportunity and you slowly get that distance between you back.
01:31:12.000 But yeah, it doesn't feel like a lot at all, particularly if there are chimps in every direction. 0.70
01:31:18.000 And because the N'Gogo group is so big, there can be a lot. 1.00
01:31:22.000 You can be in the middle of quite an amazing thing.
01:31:25.000 I know some of the most dramatic parts of chimpanzee life at N'Gogo.
01:31:35.000 You know, it's the patrolling and a lot of the slightly more aggressive elements, but most of the chimps' day is spent doing things that are just really enjoyable to be around.
01:31:51.000 Watching chimps groom is one of the most relaxing. 1.00
01:31:56.000 It looks so relaxing.
01:32:00.000 It has quite a soporific effect on you.
01:32:03.000 If you're in amongst a group of chimps and they're all gently grooming each other, you feel very sleepy.
01:32:10.000 It's quite odd just watching it.
01:32:12.000 It just looks so...
01:32:14.000 It's very gentle.
01:32:17.000 These huge males who are Capable of all sorts of things.
01:32:24.000 Very tenderly sort of groom each other or younger members of the group or the females and like it really, it looks so gentle.
01:32:32.000 They're just going, finally going through each of the hairs there and just really checking if there's anything that's worth coming out.
01:32:38.000 And they just, they often sort of fall asleep or look very relaxed.
01:32:42.000 And those moments are kind of amazing, actually, because you sort of let, they really make you relaxed.
01:32:49.000 And then a few kids will be playing around, sort of, you know, they're not interested in long grooming sessions, so they're just tumbling around in the trees and things.
01:32:58.000 And that's the majority of chimp life, actually. 1.00
01:33:02.000 And what's so interesting about them, because it's such a far cry and such huge difference between the more aggressive side of chimpanzees.
01:33:13.000 But yeah, that's what makes them so fascinating.
01:33:16.000 That situation, they can be like that in the morning and you can feel like you've just stumbled into this sort of paradise situation.
01:33:24.000 Everything's so delicate and it's so tender and playful.
01:33:30.000 But then by, you know, come the afternoon, you know, they've got a job to do at the border and it's a completely different atmosphere and it's tense and same thing.
01:33:39.000 Your heart rate is raised and your state is determined a lot by what the chimps are doing. 1.00
01:33:48.000 The grooming aspect of their relationships is very unusual.
01:33:54.000 It's very unique and very fascinating to watch because they sit there and they allow each other to do this, but there's also this social hierarchy aspect of it.
01:34:06.000 Are they looking for bugs?
01:34:09.000 What are they looking for?
01:34:11.000 They are, yeah.
01:34:12.000 So there is a real practical function.
01:34:16.000 They're looking for ticks or other sort of external parasites.
01:34:25.000 I don't know what the other things are, but they're big hairy creatures and in the forest things get stuck in there.
01:34:32.000 And ticks in particular.
01:34:35.000 We, as humans going through the forest, you've got to be really careful with ticks as well.
01:34:41.000 So, yeah, they are looking for specific things.
01:34:45.000 But then if you watch what they're doing and how they do it, and particularly with our real close-up lenses, you can see in great detail.
01:34:54.000 You can see the hairs parting and exactly what they're going for.
01:34:58.000 I don't know, it feels like, yes, that's an important part of it, but actually they're kind of stroking each other.
01:35:08.000 And how long you do it for, and then when you turn around and do it back, all those things feel like they're much greater social issues.
01:35:26.000 Thank you.
01:35:29.000 Thank you.
01:35:40.000 So when you're interacting with these chimps, is there ever a moment where the chimp tries to engage with the humans? 0.99
01:35:49.000 No, but, you know, there are occasionally individuals.
01:35:55.000 Like I say, they're all individuals.
01:35:56.000 So saying anything about the chimps do this or they don't do that, like, you know, we're really generalizing.
01:36:03.000 There are occasionally individual chimps who, even if they're not a threat to you, they are showing a level of interest that is different to others.
01:36:16.000 And there's a chimp called Rich Burgle, the chimp, who's one of our focal characters in the West. 0.99
01:36:26.000 And he's always been very comfortable near humans.
01:36:31.000 Because usually the chimps, they have that little bit of, a tiny bit of residual fear of humans. 1.00
01:36:39.000 And I think that's what makes them quite comfortable of that distance as well.
01:36:44.000 They're okay if you come there, but they actually don't want to be any closer.
01:36:49.000 That 7 to 10 metre rule suits them too, generally.
01:36:54.000 That's a comfortable distance, but it's as if the chimps, they don't really want you coming sitting next to them.
01:37:01.000 That's not okay.
01:37:04.000 And I don't know whether that's just what they like or whether they're used to it, because over the years that is the distance that scientists have kept or whatever.
01:37:15.000 But you do get some chimps that decide to come closer.
01:37:22.000 Yeah, and Rich Burgle is one of those chimps. 0.77
01:37:26.000 He orphaned at a young age, very well habituated, no fear of humans whatsoever.
01:37:34.000 You know, he's never made contact, but I think everybody who works with him would say, you know, he's the one that will come and sit a little closer or will walk towards you and then at the very last minute veer off.
01:37:51.000 And he's just kind of curious in a way that the others aren't.
01:37:58.000 Now, when the chimps are on patrol, that's a uniquely intense and aggressive moment, and it's so wild to watch, to see them, these hulking chimpanzees move through the forest in coordination.
01:38:15.000 When you're there with that, and you're very close to these violent encounters, Is there any concern there that you could get caught up in this sort of violent frenzy and maybe be in danger of being attacked?
01:38:34.000 You know, there isn't actually.
01:38:39.000 I mean, let me rephrase that.
01:38:43.000 I would say on a personal level, of course, right?
01:38:45.000 You know, you come, you hear about these things happening, you know it's a possibility, will be there when it happens, when it's filmed.
01:38:53.000 So we ask exactly the same question.
01:38:55.000 So this is...
01:38:56.000 You know, I've been through the exact same process as you are now and have this conversation with the scientists like, are we going to be safe?
01:39:03.000 You know, is it safe for us to where should we be or where should we not be if this happens when we're there?
01:39:09.000 So totally, we had exactly the same questions and we just didn't know.
01:39:15.000 And we were reassured by the scientists, you know, you'll be amazed.
01:39:19.000 Like, if you see those things, they will happen, but they will ignore you.
01:39:23.000 And their only warning was that definitely don't get too close, you know, because the level of excitement around the chimps during these encounters, you know, if there's ever a time when they could accidentally come very close to you or suddenly see you and get a bit of a fright,
01:39:46.000 you know, they wouldn't want to take that sort of a risk with it.
01:39:51.000 So they did.
01:39:52.000 We were warned, you know, keep a respectful distance from that.
01:39:58.000 But, amazingly, and there's a little behind-the-scenes clip that we've sort of released on YouTube now, and you can see that during the biggest encounter that we filmed...
01:40:17.000 The camera people were sort of like in it and around it and sort of at one stage sort of like accidentally between the two groups as they were sort of standing off and you know that the certain way I mean the chimps move so fast and they organize,
01:40:34.000 reorganize, separate or whatever so you can try and be in the perfect position but then that perfect position could quickly become where you don't want to be because of where the chimps have gone So through no fault of their own, there are times when they're in there.
01:40:53.000 It's a bit like being a war reporter or something.
01:40:56.000 But weirdly, they're so focused on what it is they're doing and have no interest in involving or redirecting their aggression to the humans at all.
01:41:13.000 I think...
01:41:14.000 You know, because of, you know, there are some quite high profile and sort of like pretty tragic sort of human chimp interactions. 1.00
01:41:26.000 In N'Gogo? 0.87
01:41:27.000 No, no.
01:41:28.000 I mean sort of like things that have happened at zoos or whatever.
01:41:33.000 And I think that it does give a sort of an unusual impression of what chimps are like in the wild.
01:41:42.000 They have all that sort of capability.
01:41:44.000 And more so, you know, the Ngogo chimps, there's so many of them. 1.00
01:41:49.000 And they are engaged in these sort of violent competitions with other groups.
01:41:56.000 That's a very real thing.
01:41:59.000 And it can get serious.
01:42:02.000 But their relationship with people is just completely different to a relationship chimps might have with people in captivity or if they've been kept as pets or something.
01:42:15.000 Right.
01:42:18.000 Yeah, it's just, it's not, I totally get it, and those are exactly the sort of things I wanted to know before I stepped in and go-go.
01:42:26.000 Well, I mean, you know, you need to know.
01:42:31.000 But amazingly, when you've been there, around it, And even once you've just been on a single patrol with them actually, and they are exhilarating.
01:42:40.000 When you go on patrol with Inkoko Chimps, it's amazing. 1.00
01:42:44.000 They are taking you on a journey to the edge of their border and they're fully committed and they're coordinated.
01:42:50.000 And they don't seem to care that you're following them.
01:42:52.000 And they're allowing you to sort of be there.
01:42:54.000 That's amazing.
01:42:55.000 Yeah, it's an incredible experience, actually.
01:42:59.000 It's real adrenaline.
01:43:01.000 Yeah, there they are.
01:43:02.000 Look at that.
01:43:03.000 This was my favorite part.
01:43:04.000 Just watching them move in coordination and just wondering, like, how do they know?
01:43:09.000 Like, what are they doing?
01:43:10.000 It almost seems like they're gesturing in some ways, like that chimp with the one hand. 1.00
01:43:14.000 Oh, so this is the behind-the-scenes bit.
01:43:16.000 Yeah, exactly.
01:43:17.000 You know, gestures quite often are in our form.
01:43:22.000 Oh, hands all over each other, though.
01:43:24.000 Yeah.
01:43:25.000 That's undeniable.
01:43:26.000 These sort of reassuring gestures.
01:43:29.000 They know.
01:43:31.000 They're in this like tense situation.
01:43:33.000 They're nervous.
01:43:35.000 I think that you can read into that.
01:43:37.000 They're sort of telling each other that like, I'm with you.
01:43:40.000 I'm with you.
01:43:41.000 I'm here.
01:43:41.000 That physical contact is just, you know, it's just reassuring each other that we're in this together.
01:43:51.000 It's you and me.
01:43:53.000 And when violence does break out, what is that experience like?
01:43:58.000 I mean...
01:44:00.000 When you're seeing chimp-on-chimp violence from several feet away, that has to be wild.
01:44:07.000 I don't really want to give away any spoilers for the series because some of these things are sort of like...
01:44:15.000 Major plot points in the series.
01:44:16.000 I don't think it matters.
01:44:18.000 I know what you're saying and I appreciate your artistic sentiment.
01:44:21.000 It doesn't matter.
01:44:21.000 But it's so good.
01:44:22.000 It's so good that even if you say what happens and people get to see it, it's so good.
01:44:27.000 I mean, and I would say that, like I said, I often personally, I wasn't there for many of the things that happened.
01:44:36.000 But I was some and I have been there previously in Gogo where certain things have happened.
01:44:43.000 It's hard.
01:44:45.000 I think that is chimp on chimp violence is a lot harder to watch than the chimp on monkey violence for me personally. 0.88
01:44:59.000 And whether I'm there myself or whether I'm seeing it recorded later on, I think there's kind of a sadness to that personally.
01:45:09.000 Quite often it's because in truth it gets more serious if the chimps outnumber them significantly.
01:45:20.000 So when chimps are kind of equal-sized groups, when they come into contact...
01:45:28.000 They're usually less violent situations.
01:45:31.000 Because there's too much danger.
01:45:33.000 There's too much danger.
01:45:34.000 There's too much at stake.
01:45:35.000 It's kind of a bit bravado.
01:45:37.000 They run at each other a few times.
01:45:39.000 But if there's enough chimps on either side, you can pretty much know that in this immediate situation, no one's going to get badly hurt. 0.99
01:45:48.000 They get badly hit when they're outnumbered.
01:45:51.000 And obviously that, on a human level, just no one likes seeing that sort of thing.
01:45:57.000 There's just a...
01:46:01.000 Yeah, it's just horrible.
01:46:05.000 Unfortunately, we've all sort of seen that personally, or clips of that in humans, and it's the most uncomfortable, horrible stuff.
01:46:14.000 It really makes you horrible.
01:46:19.000 So, yeah, all of that stuff is very hard to watch.
01:46:24.000 Sorry.
01:46:25.000 Well, and I'll say even, you know, interestingly, like I said, the scientists in GoGo, we know them really well now and we've worked with them for a long time.
01:46:36.000 So, you know, we share things and they share stories on a more personal level with us.
01:46:43.000 But they are obviously better than we or a viewer would be at detaching themselves.
01:46:49.000 This is just what happens.
01:46:51.000 They're there to observe and try and understand.
01:46:54.000 It's not an emotional thing.
01:46:56.000 But even they who have been there for many years...
01:47:01.000 And I think particularly because they've been there for many years, sometimes you see an act of violence on a chimp that you've known and been following around for ages. 0.67
01:47:10.000 They may not care about you, but you really care about them.
01:47:13.000 And it's sad.
01:47:15.000 Yeah, it's very sad.
01:47:17.000 During the filming, at least on the show, there's one instance of chimpanzees killing another chimp.
01:47:25.000 Was there more of that?
01:47:27.000 You're blowing all this.
01:47:29.000 I'm not!
01:47:30.000 I'm not!
01:47:31.000 You think it's a spoiler alert, but I'm telling you, it's so complex and so fascinating and so good.
01:47:39.000 Okay, good.
01:47:40.000 No, no, that's fine.
01:47:41.000 I don't know.
01:47:43.000 It's you for me.
01:47:44.000 It doesn't really matter.
01:47:47.000 It's so good.
01:47:48.000 It doesn't matter.
01:47:49.000 Okay.
01:47:50.000 Yes.
01:47:50.000 Okay.
01:47:51.000 So that happens.
01:47:53.000 Was it only one time while you were there?
01:47:58.000 Well, yes.
01:48:00.000 No.
01:48:01.000 Well, there's another thing in the series we're not going to talk about.
01:48:06.000 Okay.
01:48:06.000 Because that really is a spoiler.
01:48:10.000 But yes, a couple of occasions whilst we were there.
01:48:17.000 And that is, I mean, is it conflicted?
01:48:23.000 Do you almost have this feeling that you want to intervene and protect the chimp? 0.99
01:48:28.000 I think, yeah, everybody who's been around, those feelings, you wish it wouldn't happen.
01:48:37.000 You don't want this to conclude in the way that you think it might.
01:48:45.000 But again, I think I totally understand why you're asking, but I think once you've been around them enough and you have to have this commitment to...
01:48:58.000 And it's part of the same point that you were asking earlier about that impact on their lives.
01:49:03.000 You want zero impact on their lives or minimal, right?
01:49:08.000 You don't want any negative impact.
01:49:10.000 You actually can't make too much of a positive impact either.
01:49:14.000 Also, it just wouldn't be practical.
01:49:17.000 It's not safe.
01:49:21.000 What could you do?
01:49:22.000 Shout and make a noise and try and disturb them just enough for a moment that the chimp could get away. 1.00
01:49:32.000 Possibly.
01:49:33.000 But I think that it wouldn't be ethical to do it.
01:49:39.000 It is natural behaviour.
01:49:43.000 I mean, that's my take on it from what I've seen at Ngogo.
01:49:50.000 This is part of their natural behaviour.
01:49:53.000 They are competitive.
01:49:55.000 And they're territorial.
01:49:57.000 And those, you know, those behaviours have served them well in the past.
01:50:05.000 So you can't, as much as it's from a human observer point of view, that same thing, taking that same situation out as something you observed in the street...
01:50:15.000 All those natural sort of tendencies, desires to intervene and stop something, you know, they're there for good reason.
01:50:23.000 But, you know, this is the entire scientific project, our commitment as filmmakers to observe but not interfere.
01:50:35.000 I mean, that's all part of the same thing.
01:50:38.000 If you stepped out of that role...
01:50:40.000 In any circumstance, you've crossed a line in a really odd way.
01:50:47.000 And in a way, that sort of helps with what you're feeling when you see or observe those things, because you know there's absolutely nothing you can do about this.
01:50:59.000 Right.
01:51:00.000 I mean, of course, ethically, you really can't intervene.
01:51:03.000 But it's still sort of...
01:51:06.000 I mean, what an amazing experience for you as a human being to have gone through this.
01:51:11.000 It's just such a rare, rare insight into these animals and these incredibly unique creatures and their behavior.
01:51:20.000 You must feel so fortunate just to have experienced, just as a human being, just as a life experience to take that in.
01:51:27.000 I really do.
01:51:29.000 Yeah, I really do.
01:51:32.000 I've been very lucky in lots of bits of my job that I've done over the years.
01:51:38.000 I think that it's a great job.
01:51:40.000 It's very hard work, a lot harder than probably what people appreciate.
01:51:45.000 But extremely lucky on loads of things.
01:51:48.000 I do feel with the Ngogo chimps in particular, like you say, as a human being, from an existential sort of point of view, there's like... 1.00
01:51:58.000 I'm so fortunate.
01:52:01.000 And not really...
01:52:02.000 Not many people get to see that.
01:52:05.000 And they are our closest relatives.
01:52:08.000 And they are...
01:52:10.000 They're fascinating because of the connections we have with them.
01:52:13.000 They're also fascinating because they're different and they're all individuals.
01:52:17.000 And it's a chance to just, you kind of feel a part of something that has, you know, brought that important knowledge and information to people.
01:52:31.000 Yeah, so I feel personally very fortunate.
01:52:34.000 How do you top that?
01:52:39.000 Are you always trying to top your work?
01:52:43.000 I mean, what you've done is so extraordinary.
01:52:45.000 I watched it and at the end of it I was like, how do you beat that?
01:52:50.000 I mean, you are always trying to make something better than you did before.
01:52:55.000 On a personal and professional level, you want...
01:52:58.000 You want to do really cool stuff that people like.
01:53:05.000 So yeah, I'm always thinking about what could move things on.
01:53:13.000 I think making a series about the Ngogo chimps is quite hard because they feel... 1.00
01:53:20.000 For all the reasons we just said, they are our closest relatives.
01:53:24.000 They are the biggest group.
01:53:27.000 In terms of story and character, which I think is probably... 0.95
01:53:33.000 You're a chimp nut and you love... 1.00
01:53:37.000 All bits of it. 0.95
01:53:38.000 You're fascinated on levels that a lot of people maybe don't appreciate.
01:53:43.000 So I think you get the whole thing.
01:53:47.000 But I think potentially what the broader audience is really responding to is the characters and the stories.
01:53:56.000 There are real chimpanzee characters that you can follow through the whole series.
01:54:03.000 And that is hard, certainly harder to do with other animal species.
01:54:11.000 You know, there's so much going on there in terms of individual variation and, you know, chimp psychology. 0.98
01:54:19.000 You know, you're always just wondering, what are they thinking?
01:54:22.000 What are they going to do?
01:54:24.000 What's he making of that?
01:54:25.000 What does she want now? 1.00
01:54:27.000 You know, they invite that level of intrigue, that depth of character, the genuinely different characters who all kind of want quite different things.
01:54:39.000 And that, as a sort of storyteller in the natural world, is quite a unique opportunity.
01:54:47.000 So...
01:54:48.000 Yeah, I don't know, actually.
01:54:50.000 I'll just rest for a while.
01:54:53.000 Do you have another project lined up?
01:54:56.000 I mean, we finished working on Chimp Empire quite a long time ago. 1.00
01:55:00.000 So it's been about a year or something we finished the edit.
01:55:06.000 So I am working on other stuff already.
01:55:11.000 But I can't.
01:55:12.000 I understand that.
01:55:13.000 I would imagine if I was Netflix, if I was one of the CEOs, I would be in immediate conversation with you about season two.
01:55:21.000 I think you're very wise.
01:55:25.000 We have talked about it with the commissioner, Sarah Edelson.
01:55:32.000 She loves the series and was behind it from day one.
01:55:37.000 Shout out to Sarah. 0.97
01:55:38.000 Yeah, shout out to Sarah. 0.93
01:55:40.000 And she... 1.00
01:55:41.000 We've talked about it.
01:55:44.000 We talked about it even before we started, actually, because I think, you know, she could see the potential, actually, that, you know, this isn't a...
01:55:53.000 This is a, you know, it's a window of time into the Ngogo group, but they don't stop having interesting stories just because we stopped filming them.
01:56:01.000 So we sort of knew there was that potential, and And there is a kind of a conversation that's sort of bubbling away.
01:56:10.000 But I think waiting, I think it is the sensible thing to wait.
01:56:15.000 Let this series have its impact, whatever that will be.
01:56:22.000 Like I said, I personally love to do it and I think the whole team would be like, we can't stop now, can we?
01:56:30.000 Because it's still happening at N'Gogo.
01:56:32.000 Okay, the story for the series is finished, but the N'Gogo story continues.
01:56:37.000 And we've learned so much and all that.
01:56:39.000 At the same time, there is an argument for saying, you know, it feels quite definitive and, you know, people would worry about what we don't want to do is just...
01:56:51.000 Rehash the same sort of narratives.
01:56:53.000 Yeah.
01:56:54.000 It wouldn't be the same thing, because all the chimps get older and new characters want different things, and that story happened in that time, so everything that happened there won't happen again.
01:57:07.000 But still, the experience of watching season one...
01:57:13.000 It's partly you're following that story, but you're also being introduced to the Ngogo chimps.
01:57:18.000 And you're learning about what they do and how they do it, how they relate to each other.
01:57:26.000 So there's a lot of that experience, which if you did a season two, in a way it would be great because you would jump straight into a story and not have to have as much exposition about the groups.
01:57:43.000 Yeah, don't I? Do you think it should be another one?
01:57:45.000 Yes.
01:57:46.000 Okay.
01:57:47.000 Yeah, without a doubt, I would watch it.
01:57:50.000 When an alpha controls the group, how long generally is their reign?
01:57:58.000 And what happens to them when they get pushed out?
01:58:02.000 So that's, interestingly, that's different in different chimp groups across Africa.
01:58:08.000 But at Ngogo, I think, like, six, seven years is the average, like, good tenure.
01:58:17.000 There have been chimps who have taken the alpha position...
01:58:21.000 I've not done it very well and have been out after a year.
01:58:26.000 There's one chimp there, Bartok, who was in charge for 10 years, but he was very successful alpha and very politically astute. 0.99
01:58:37.000 So I think the average at Ngoga was sort of six or seven years.
01:58:44.000 Yeah, and that's quite a long time.
01:58:46.000 It's fascinating because it's similar to presidential reigns.
01:58:50.000 Yeah.
01:58:50.000 Yeah, exactly, yeah.
01:58:54.000 Yeah, it is interesting.
01:58:55.000 I wonder, you know, it's like the peak of their prime and their control.
01:59:01.000 It's like they have a term limit.
01:59:03.000 It is interesting because regardless of age as well, so it doesn't really feel like, yeah, there isn't, there isn't, like at Ngogo, there's an average sort of expectancy of Alpha ship.
01:59:17.000 And I think that's, yeah, six or seven years.
01:59:20.000 And that's why we knew that Jackson, at the start of when we were filming, we knew that he was entering a period where things could get tricky for him because he'd been in charge for about six years.
01:59:35.000 And it is very interesting that that tends to be the term.
01:59:38.000 And the longer the study goes on for, the more interesting those things become.
01:59:43.000 Because I think in the early days, when they were first observing the chimps, they were like, okay, well, he was in charge for three years, he was in charge for seven, and there didn't seem to be any pattern.
01:59:53.000 So it was all sort of, well, you're just at the top until someone knocks you off.
01:59:58.000 But it does seem interesting that they don't see them lasting that much longer.
02:00:03.000 You know, they expect them not to stay there for much longer.
02:00:08.000 Is there any evidence that they learn from the chimps that are successful and they mimic this sort of political behavior and sort of like social awareness of keeping everybody happy and sort of like governing and, 0.97
02:00:24.000 you know, and a sort of an effective Sort of harmonious way?
02:00:31.000 Well, whether they see other chimps doing well through that, I don't know.
02:00:39.000 I think that's a good question.
02:00:43.000 I don't know the answer to that, actually.
02:00:46.000 I mean, there's certainly, there's leaders in, they adopt different strategies in Individually.
02:00:54.000 And definitely the ones that are better at managing their political relationships and their allies, they stay in power longer and they have an easier time of it.
02:01:07.000 Like Bartok, I mean these are chimps that passed long before this series, but you would be interested in it.
02:01:15.000 Bartok is a small guy.
02:01:18.000 I mean, I always looked big when he was alpha because they tend to sort of, they just hold themselves differently.
02:01:24.000 So they puff their hair out.
02:01:26.000 It's called pylorect when they stick all that.
02:01:28.000 Their hair goes on and it literally gives them a different silhouette, a different body shape.
02:01:33.000 And so when you are alpha, you tend to look bigger anyway.
02:01:37.000 But even when he was like that, he didn't look as big as the other chimps. 1.00
02:01:40.000 He was a relatively small chimp, but he was the longest serving alpha they've ever had at Ngogo. 0.99
02:01:47.000 So he was the most successful leader there.
02:01:49.000 And it was right at a time when Ngogo was still one massive group. 0.97
02:01:54.000 So he probably was leader at the time when the group was biggest for the longest period, and he was also the smallest guy they've ever had in charge.
02:02:05.000 And they put all that down to he was extremely good at keeping his relationships going with all the other big males.
02:02:14.000 So all the big guys that could threaten him, he was grooming them all the time, keeping them happy.
02:02:20.000 Wow.
02:02:20.000 And what happens to them when they get overthrown?
02:02:25.000 Do they just assume a lesser position?
02:02:28.000 They do.
02:02:30.000 At Ngogo, everything is okay after that.
02:02:37.000 They might get beaten up badly in the overthrow.
02:02:42.000 They might get a bit injured there, but it's never been lethal.
02:02:48.000 Whereas at other sites, I've heard that alphas have been killed in the transfer of power.
02:02:58.000 Interestingly, that's never happened at Ngogo.
02:03:03.000 The incoming, there could well be a big fight and some minor injuries, but then that's it.
02:03:11.000 And there's a new dominance hierarchy established.
02:03:16.000 And as long as the outgoing alpha is submitting to the incoming one in the formal way, the pant grund, Whenever he comes by, then that's just, okay, we've sorted this out.
02:03:32.000 We now know, like, he's on top.
02:03:35.000 And the other chimps know.
02:03:37.000 But what happens then is they can sometimes retain a sort of high position in the hierarchy.
02:03:45.000 Like Miles, for instance, who's Jackson's giant friend.
02:03:50.000 He was alpha for quite a brief period and then I can't remember who was after and then I think could have been Jackson actually who took it off Myles.
02:04:00.000 Myles remained high up there in number two and number three spot.
02:04:05.000 He's always remained powerful.
02:04:07.000 But some of them, Bartok, I think just after he left the alpha position, he just began the trajectory down the hierarchy and just retired.
02:04:19.000 He was out of it.
02:04:20.000 Not competing anymore.
02:04:23.000 I'm old, I'm done.
02:04:25.000 They just accept the new position.
02:04:26.000 Yeah, and they really drop down, all the way down the hierarchy.
02:04:30.000 They're no longer competing in the higher levels of the dominance hierarchy.
02:04:34.000 They retire from that.
02:04:36.000 Are you aware of Robert Sapolsky's work with baboons? 0.97
02:04:41.000 No.
02:04:42.000 Sapolsky spent a lot of time embedded with baboons, and one of the things that he observed that's incredibly unusual is there was a group of baboons that was eating food that was in garbage that was from, I believe it was a resort. 0.69
02:04:58.000 And these particularly ruthless alphas who would have first access to all this kind of food, They got poisoned because they ate this bad food and they wound up dying.
02:05:09.000 And it completely changed the way they behave with each other.
02:05:14.000 The ruthless alphas died and all of a sudden it became this sort of utopian civilization amongst baboons where they didn't exhibit any of that barbaric behavior. 1.00
02:05:25.000 And they were much more kind to each other.
02:05:28.000 I didn't know that.
02:05:29.000 That is fascinating, and that just shows the outsized impact some individuals can have on the overall sort of culture of a group, right?
02:05:41.000 Much like humans.
02:05:42.000 Yeah.
02:05:43.000 Yeah.
02:05:43.000 And I think the same thing has happened at N'Gogo on lots of different levels.
02:05:49.000 Like, the central group ran by Jackson...
02:05:54.000 There's a lot of competition.
02:05:57.000 There's not as much play.
02:06:01.000 It's all quite a harsh existence.
02:06:05.000 And then the Western group, who are much smaller in number, they spend much more time playing and socialising.
02:06:16.000 And the females in that group have a nicer time. 1.00
02:06:21.000 They get beaten up a lot less often.
02:06:23.000 And that doesn't sound like a very nice thing as a positive.
02:06:26.000 Oh, and the females don't get beaten up as much. 1.00
02:06:28.000 That's a good thing.
02:06:29.000 Unfortunately, in chimpanzee society, that just does happen.
02:06:32.000 I mean, chimps beat each other up.
02:06:35.000 It's a bit of life, and the females get a part of that as well. 1.00
02:06:41.000 But interestingly, females seem to love being in the West, and there's quite a lot of incoming feelings into the Western group, incoming females into the Western group.
02:06:56.000 So they've got a small number of males, but a huge number of females, and females have left the central group and gone to the West.
02:07:06.000 And they play a lot.
02:07:07.000 Now, how do they make transitions from one to the other?
02:07:12.000 Like, if there's the West group, how does another chimpanzee become embedded in that group?
02:07:20.000 Well, as a male chimpanzee, you can't do that.
02:07:24.000 They can't.
02:07:24.000 No.
02:07:26.000 Any male chimpanzee going over to the other side would just be met with extreme hostility.
02:07:35.000 Females, it's part of the natural cycle. 1.00
02:07:41.000 When females reach sexual maturity, they leave the group where they were born. 0.99
02:07:50.000 Lots of animals do that, actually.
02:07:52.000 Is it to encourage genetic diversity?
02:07:54.000 Yeah, exactly.
02:07:55.000 So same, you know, you see that in quite a lot of different animal species.
02:08:02.000 And they do that, you know, 10, 11, whatever, maybe a few years later, but at some point around that period, they will make that change.
02:08:14.000 And they arrive at a completely different group.
02:08:17.000 They travel across the forest and they sort of hang around on the edges of that new group and just gradually get accepted in.
02:08:25.000 But, you know, chimpanzee communities accept females arriving from other groups.
02:08:32.000 Do other females challenge that? 1.00
02:08:34.000 Do they...
02:08:35.000 They do.
02:08:35.000 They generally get a very hard time when they first come to the group, actually.
02:08:41.000 Partly because the males are all very interested, and it's a purely positive thing for a new female to arrive at the group.
02:08:52.000 But the females that are there already will often be quite hostile to that new female for quite a long period of time.
02:09:02.000 I think, you know, during our series, our filming period, one of the females that we knew well left the group where she was.
02:09:17.000 And you sort of...
02:09:19.000 You worry about them because it's inevitable that they're going from a place where they know everybody and they're treated relatively well and you know it's their sort of family and social group and then they're traveling across to a group where everybody is sort of hostile but the local females in particular And that might last a while as well.
02:09:47.000 So for the first couple of years even, it could be quite a nervous, anxious existence.
02:09:56.000 But yet they're compelled to do it.
02:09:58.000 Yeah.
02:10:00.000 Wow.
02:10:00.000 Yeah.
02:10:02.000 Now, when they do this, do they ever go back and forth?
02:10:06.000 Not that I know of, no.
02:10:09.000 So they quit that group, they join another group, and that's where they stay?
02:10:14.000 Yes.
02:10:14.000 Wow.
02:10:15.000 Yeah.
02:10:16.000 As far as I know, yeah.
02:10:18.000 That's it.
02:10:19.000 That's the new life.
02:10:21.000 But the interesting thing now at Ngogo, because the former giant Ngogo group is now central group and western group, so in a way this is going to make transferring as an adolescent female a much easier thing to do because some of them will transfer from central group to the western group.
02:10:45.000 Where they know everybody, actually.
02:10:47.000 Because until a few years ago, they were part of the same group.
02:10:50.000 So that's different to before.
02:10:56.000 So when the females from the central group go to the western group, they know chimpanzees already?
02:11:02.000 They'll know some of them.
02:11:04.000 Yeah, I mean it's been a few years.
02:11:08.000 How many?
02:11:09.000 I think it was 2018. Oh, fairly recently.
02:11:12.000 When they finally really split.
02:11:15.000 And what was the cause of the split?
02:11:18.000 So, I mean a number of different things that kind of go back quite a few years.
02:11:25.000 I mean, the sheer size of the group, you know, had never been documented anywhere.
02:11:32.000 The Ngogo, the numbers of chimpanzees in the original Ngogo group are more than twice the size of the next biggest group.
02:11:41.000 So it was a bit of a mystery how they were holding together anyway, and also whether they would hold together forever.
02:11:50.000 Can they really just keep on growing and maintaining, staying as one group?
02:11:57.000 Bearing in mind there's still the same sort of social structure.
02:12:00.000 So you still have a single alpha male, but the group is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
02:12:09.000 Even back when I was there a few, in like 2015, previously, so this was before they split, but at that point, I remember Kevin Langergrabber, one of the scientists that was there at the time,
02:12:27.000 And they he was explaining that actually the Ngogo community is a bit different.
02:12:32.000 Like they are one group, but they have these little subgroups like neighborhoods within within the territory.
02:12:41.000 And so they're already describing some of these neighborhoods as the Easterners and the Westerners and stuff.
02:12:48.000 They were part of the same group.
02:12:49.000 And the males would patrol the territory together.
02:12:54.000 They were on the same team, but they hung out in different areas.
02:12:59.000 And it was quite, you know, they'd really have an association with that area that was much stronger.
02:13:06.000 And they did think that that was the beginning of sort of, okay, we're sort of spending less time with them.
02:13:12.000 When we see them, we'll groom and it'll be fine, but we're gradually spending less time with each other.
02:13:19.000 And that was sort of the beginning, I think, of these sort of divisions.
02:13:24.000 Yeah.
02:13:26.000 And then, I don't know, big fights, particularly between Jackson and the other, what became the leading Western males.
02:13:40.000 Yeah, big fights there that I think contributed to this sort of growing divide.
02:13:49.000 And then there just came a point in 2018 where the scientists were saying, You know what?
02:13:58.000 They're properly separate groups.
02:14:01.000 Now, this is it.
02:14:03.000 Do any of the females from the western group go to the central group when they reach sexual maturity?
02:14:11.000 I don't think that's happened yet, no.
02:14:15.000 But I think they will expect...
02:14:17.000 I mean, this is all new, because 2018...
02:14:20.000 Five years ago.
02:14:21.000 Yeah.
02:14:22.000 I mean, this is...
02:14:22.000 The whole thing about this series, which I feel like, you know...
02:14:27.000 You're asking me where I felt lucky.
02:14:29.000 I mean, I'm very lucky to just spend time with the N'Gogo chimps, but at this period... 1.00
02:14:32.000 It's fascinating because, you know, brilliant for filming and the potential for interesting story to unfold was right there from the start.
02:14:43.000 But it's also, it's scientifically, it's unknown territory.
02:14:49.000 And, you know, we worked with...
02:14:55.000 I keep name-checking people, but it's sort of reminding me of the different roles that they sort of played.
02:15:00.000 John Matani, who's one of the main scientists there, he was really the one who sort of highlighted when this happened, sort of how unique this was going to be.
02:15:13.000 And I remember thinking, oh, this is amazing.
02:15:17.000 This new thing has happened at Ngogo.
02:15:20.000 But he was saying, well, look, of course it's a fascinating thing to happen.
02:15:26.000 But now we have two groups that are both completely habituated to human presence and they're rivals.
02:15:35.000 And so, as scientists, we can be there and study what happens between these two groups and as filmmakers too.
02:15:45.000 You have access to this sort of being on the two different sides of this chimpanzee rivalry and with equal access.
02:15:55.000 Now, that had never happened before because usually chimpanzee groups...
02:16:02.000 The habituated group, the ones that scientists have got used to human presence, you can study them and film them very closely, but the wild chimps, the truly wild, not used to people ones, you can't get close to them as a scientist or as a filmmaker.
02:16:16.000 You know they're out there, you can hear them, but you can't get close to them.
02:16:20.000 So the split presented this fascinating situation Scientifically, but also this really unique filming opportunity.
02:16:30.000 We can literally be embedded in these two different groups.
02:16:35.000 And nobody knows what's going to happen over the next year or two.
02:16:42.000 But we know it's going to be interesting.
02:16:44.000 And we know there's a new situation here that, yeah, anything could happen.
02:16:53.000 That sounds like a pitch for season two to me.
02:17:00.000 Because there's so much that could happen.
02:17:02.000 Yeah.
02:17:03.000 There is.
02:17:04.000 And honestly, yeah.
02:17:05.000 It does sound like I want to pitch for season two.
02:17:08.000 It is fascinating what's happening there at the minute.
02:17:12.000 You would find it personally fascinating.
02:17:16.000 Oh, I'm sure.
02:17:17.000 I do.
02:17:18.000 I mean, just watching it, I find it personally fascinating.
02:17:21.000 Listen, I just think you did a fantastic job, and you should be very proud of it.
02:17:25.000 And as a person who is very fortunate enough to be alive when this is airing on Netflix, it's really groundbreaking stuff.
02:17:35.000 And I mean, until I understood, until I knew the...
02:17:39.000 I mean, we kind of watched some of the behind-the-scenes footage, but I had no idea how long it took to get these chimps accustomed to the scientists and...
02:17:49.000 The camera people being there.
02:17:51.000 It's just so unique.
02:17:53.000 Yeah.
02:17:54.000 You can't underestimate that.
02:17:56.000 I know it sounds like I'm trying to share credit with them for it, but you just cannot underestimate how valuable that is.
02:18:06.000 That's true of almost any...
02:18:10.000 Well, the vast majority of cool things you see captured on film with animals is, okay, the film crew did a great job, but usually that was because there were years and years and years of sort of scientific work beforehand that even just enabled you to get in a position where you could see it,
02:18:31.000 but also to understand it and what was happening.
02:18:34.000 And it's so, you feel it with the Ngogo Chimps, we just felt it from the beginning, you feel it every day. 1.00
02:18:41.000 All the things that you're wondering about, things that amazed me at the start, those are possible because of decades of work and decades of tracking and following these chimpanzees in the most responsible way as well.
02:19:01.000 What would be a sort of fragile relationship between humans and our closest relatives.
02:19:05.000 All the things that's amazing about it because of what they did over the decades there.
02:19:12.000 And everything that we knew about every one of those chimps, we were able to study their back. 0.91
02:19:18.000 Before we even went out, we could study their backstories, like for over 200 chimps.
02:19:34.000 We've got a proper sense of who each individual chimp was. 1.00
02:19:39.000 And all that, you know, that's just, that's all the scientists providing that.
02:19:45.000 So...
02:19:46.000 Yeah, I'm not just giving them a shout because I feel like they deserve it.
02:19:51.000 It's just, if you're actually interested in understanding how that works, like that, we slid in on the back of that.
02:19:58.000 That is how this sort of project works with the access to the chimpanzees, but actually it's the access to the scientific project.
02:20:09.000 And the Ugandan field trackers who do it.
02:20:11.000 And they've just, you know, they've done it for 30 years.
02:20:16.000 And then, you know, fortunately, they said to us something really interesting happening and they supported us doing it.
02:20:26.000 Well, I mean, so fortunate and so unique.
02:20:30.000 And I remember the first time seeing the very first episode, just blown away.
02:20:37.000 Like, how?
02:20:38.000 How did they do this?
02:20:39.000 How did they get so close?
02:20:40.000 I mean, it's like, are they using drones?
02:20:42.000 I was like, do they have camera traps everywhere?
02:20:45.000 Yeah.
02:20:45.000 Like, how are they doing this?
02:20:46.000 It's just so incredible and just so fascinating, so unique, and congratulations.
02:20:54.000 That means a lot.
02:20:56.000 Thanks very much.
02:20:56.000 Oh, my pleasure.
02:20:57.000 And thank you very much for being here.
02:20:59.000 I really, really appreciate it.
02:21:00.000 Can't recommend it enough.
02:21:02.000 Chimp Empire is on Netflix right now.
02:21:06.000 There's four parts.
02:21:07.000 They're all amazing.
02:21:08.000 You guys nailed it.
02:21:09.000 It's incredible.
02:21:10.000 And I really, really hope you continue to do it.
02:21:12.000 Thanks so much.
02:21:12.000 I really hope you have season two.
02:21:14.000 I really appreciate it.
02:21:15.000 And thanks for having me.
02:21:17.000 My pleasure.
02:21:17.000 My pleasure.
02:21:18.000 Do you have social media you want to tell people about?
02:21:21.000 I don't really.
02:21:22.000 No, I'm not big on social media.
02:21:23.000 Good for you.
02:21:24.000 Good for you.
02:21:28.000 Congratulations on that.
02:21:29.000 No, not really.
02:21:30.000 I'll just give my personal email.
02:21:32.000 Don't do that.
02:21:33.000 Don't do that.
02:21:34.000 Unless, I mean, there's something that someone could contribute, I doubt.
02:21:38.000 No, I don't have any personal social media presence whatsoever.
02:21:43.000 But there's, I mean, there is actually, like, the Ngogo Chimpanzee Project have a Facebook page.
02:21:52.000 And they sort of, yeah, and they're very good.
02:21:56.000 They kind of, they get the things that people from the public will be interested in.
02:22:02.000 They post things about what's happening at Ngogo.com.
02:22:06.000 So, people who are genuinely interested in what's happening with the Ngogo Chimps, there's a Facebook page. 0.98
02:22:11.000 Okay.
02:22:11.000 So, we'll send them to there.
02:22:13.000 Thank you very much.
02:22:14.000 Really, really appreciate it.
02:22:15.000 Thank you.
02:22:16.000 Thank you.
02:22:16.000 Cheers.
02:22:17.000 Bye, everybody.