The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2065 - David Grusch

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day!

00:00:11.000 What's up?

00:00:12.000 How are you, man?

00:00:13.000 Hey, good, good.

00:00:14.000 Thanks for coming here.

00:00:15.000 Appreciate it.

00:00:16.000 Yeah, no, it's a pleasure.

00:00:18.000 You've been on a whirlwind sort of tour.

00:00:23.000 I guess we should start from the beginning.

00:00:25.000 So, first of all, lay out to people what your job was with the military and how this all started for you.

00:00:34.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:00:34.000 So I was an intel officer in the Air Force for 14 years, seven active, seven reserve.

00:00:40.000 Then I kind of had like a parallel track in the civilian intel world when I became a reservist.

00:00:48.000 And ultimately I got brought back in in civil service in a government way at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency.

00:00:55.000 A couple years ago at a senior level.

00:00:58.000 So I was a major in the Air Force and a GS-15 at NGA, which is like a Fulbert Colonel equivalent civilian employee.

00:01:07.000 You know, I'm very humbled that I was able to kind of get that kind of job.

00:01:10.000 But my career mostly, I didn't even really think about this topic.

00:01:17.000 UFOs were not on my radar.

00:01:18.000 I wasn't really a believer.

00:01:19.000 I was agnostic about it.

00:01:22.000 Most of my career I did a lot of...

00:01:25.000 You know, behind the door special access program, technical type activities.

00:01:30.000 I was kind of a space intelligence expert, a cyber intel expert.

00:01:35.000 And Like I said, this was not on my radar at all.

00:01:39.000 You know, I would joke with my buddies because I used to handle the presidential daily brief for the National Reconnaissance Office director in my military capacity as a reservist.

00:01:49.000 And I was well clear to hundreds and hundreds of compartmented programs. 0.99

00:01:54.000 And, you know, the joke was like, when are we going to get the read on for the crazy shit? 0.99

00:01:57.000 And that never happens. 0.99

00:02:00.000 And I do remember that the day that I really...

00:02:06.000 Can remember that I was like, huh, what's with this UFO stuff?

00:02:09.000 I was briefing a senior person at the CIA into a couple hundred special access programs.

00:02:18.000 So I was at the headquarters at the agency and, you know, after the indoctrination I was giving to the senior person.

00:02:24.000 This person who worked with Lou Elizondo previously was like, yeah, Dave, have you ever heard of this guy, Lou Elizondo?

00:02:32.000 He's running some UFO program at the Pentagon.

00:02:35.000 We all think he's crazy.

00:02:37.000 And I'm like, I don't know who this guy Lou Elizondo is, and I don't know of any kind of UFO program.

00:02:43.000 So that sounds nuts to me.

00:02:46.000 But lo and behold – and that was like early 2017. And lo and behold, in December 2017, that New York Times article came up with – that named the AATIP program and the OSAP program, so Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program.

00:03:03.000 And the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program being the other acronym. 0.96

00:03:07.000 And I was like, holy shit! 0.95

00:03:09.000 Wait, that's that guy, Lou Elizondo, that I heard about? 0.99

00:03:12.000 Oh, you know what?

00:03:12.000 I think I have heard of ASAP. When I was a lieutenant, I used to read these reports Yeah.

00:03:46.000 I started doing kind of what I call my open source literature review.

00:03:49.000 Like, let me spin myself up on this topic.

00:03:51.000 Watching Chris Mellon, Lou Elizondo, Leslie Keen, all these people talk about the subject.

00:03:57.000 And then, you know, just trying to understand, so what is this with UFOs?

00:04:01.000 Has this been going on for a while?

00:04:03.000 The answer is yes.

00:04:04.000 Like, Foo Fighters, sightings of weird stuff in antiquity, etc., which we can get into later.

00:04:10.000 But...

00:04:11.000 And so early 2019 comes along, and my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office, in kind of my Air Force major capacity, forwarded me an email from what stood up in, I guess it was 2018,

00:04:26.000 which was the unidentified, well, it was Ariel, now Anomalous Philomena Task Force, UAP Task Force.

00:04:33.000 So the UAP Task Force director sent my boss an email saying, hey, we're looking for a rep.

00:04:38.000 To the task force.

00:04:39.000 And as, like, any good officer, I was like, well, I'll put it on my performance report.

00:04:43.000 Hey, I was on a task force.

00:04:45.000 And, you know, that would look good.

00:04:47.000 And I – being well cleared and also a bachelor's degree in physics, master's in intelligence analysis, I'm like, you know what? 0.99

00:04:55.000 I'll figure out what this shit is. 0.99

00:04:56.000 It's either going to be weather shit. 1.00

00:04:58.000 Maybe it's an adversarial program. 0.99

00:05:00.000 Maybe it's like a U.S. program.

00:05:03.000 People are misidentifying on rare occasions. 1.00

00:05:06.000 So, fuck it. 1.00

00:05:07.000 I'll go see where the data takes me. 1.00

00:05:11.000 And early 2019 or so, I joined the UAP Task Force.

00:05:16.000 And then...

00:05:18.000 I started, you know, interviewing pilots, flag officers, you know, general officer equivalent type Navy folks. 0.99

00:05:27.000 And, you know, they were seeing some really crazy shit. 0.88

00:05:30.000 And like an event that I talked about previously publicly. 0.99

00:05:34.000 Yeah.

00:05:51.000 Crazy triangle hover over his car, going to work at a certain naval facility, and it blew his mind.

00:05:58.000 He was serious.

00:06:00.000 The paint on his car turned milky white after the incident.

00:06:04.000 So that's, to me, that sounds like ionizing radiation, so like ultraviolet.

00:06:08.000 Just like how you're...

00:06:10.000 Your headlights get all foggy over time if you park your car out in the sun.

00:06:15.000 Same phenomenon just happened within a 24-hour period.

00:06:19.000 And I'm like, whoa. 0.85

00:06:20.000 If this is true and the oral testimony and crazy radar data that I saw when I was on the task force, stuff making turns that didn't make any sense, well, holy shit, what is this stuff then?

00:06:33.000 This anomaly with his paint, is this documented?

00:06:38.000 Is this photographs?

00:06:39.000 Yes, I saw photographs.

00:06:40.000 It was documented, yeah.

00:06:41.000 And is there a conventional explanation?

00:06:46.000 I mean, based on what he described, something to rapidly ionize his paint like that within a day, I can't think of anything off the top of my head in terms of some conventional aerospace technology.

00:07:00.000 And this was a certain facility in the continental U.S. This was not overseas.

00:07:04.000 So it's not like our adversary is flying some spooky thing in U.S. airspace.

00:07:11.000 Yeah.

00:07:11.000 So this thing hovered over his car for how long?

00:07:14.000 A couple minutes while he was traveling at about 60 miles an hour, so it was pacing his vehicle.

00:07:20.000 How far away from his vehicle?

00:07:24.000 It's probably a couple hundred feet in altitude.

00:07:26.000 It was less than a thousand feet, which is also bad because from an airspace perspective, pilots would know this.

00:07:33.000 Anything under a thousand feet?

00:07:34.000 No.

00:07:35.000 Unless you get special clearance and you only do that over controlled airspace, like a military test ranges, right?

00:07:41.000 People fly low and that kind of thing.

00:07:43.000 So is he on – what kind of a highway is he on?

00:07:46.000 A conventional civilian highway.

00:07:49.000 So anyone could have been on it.

00:07:50.000 Yes.

00:07:50.000 And it just happened to be this guy.

00:07:54.000 Did he have any other experiences with this thing?

00:07:57.000 No.

00:07:58.000 This was like a once-in-a-lifetime thing.

00:08:01.000 He kept it to himself for a couple years, but then he...

00:08:05.000 What was his name?

00:08:08.000 I don't...

00:08:10.000 That individual's still on active duty.

00:08:12.000 Let's call him Bob. 0.99

00:08:12.000 Did anybody say to him, hey, Bob, what the fuck happened to your car? 0.99

00:08:16.000 You know, that's a good question. 0.96

00:08:17.000 I don't remember if people asked him about his car.

00:08:20.000 So he took pride in his car.

00:08:22.000 So it actually was probably more upsetting to him personally.

00:08:24.000 What kind of car was it?

00:08:25.000 It was like a Toyota or something.

00:08:27.000 Okay.

00:08:27.000 Yeah.

00:08:28.000 So all of a sudden his Toyota's fucked. 1.00

00:08:30.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:08:30.000 Okay. 1.00

00:08:31.000 And so did he have to report this?

00:08:35.000 Is this something that...

00:08:36.000 He did not report it to my knowledge to anybody.

00:08:39.000 It wasn't until he reported it to us about five years later that it happened.

00:08:46.000 So, are these kind of experiences something that a lot of these pilots are embarrassed about discussing or have apprehension about discussing because they could be ridiculed?

00:08:57.000 Yeah, a lot of people that are on flight status, they don't want to be sent to the psych, right?

00:09:01.000 You know, there's a whole aerospace physiology kind of empire in the military.

00:09:06.000 You know, if you're an operator or, you know, a guy, a missile key turner, you're on what they call a personal reliability program, you're taking like, you know, Tylenol, you got to report it.

00:09:17.000 If you have a fever, you got to report it because you're, you know, in control of nuclear weapons when you're on duty.

00:09:22.000 Right.

00:09:23.000 Yeah.

00:09:23.000 And so this idea of being predisposed to fantasy, that's also something that they sort of talk to these people about or try to get a gauge of...

00:09:34.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:35.000 These are people that are very sober-minded.

00:09:37.000 I mean, this individual was early in the morning going to work, not under the influence of anything.

00:09:42.000 And that person had a similar clearance as mine, no TSSCI. So, you know, we've gone through...

00:09:48.000 TS? What was that?

00:09:49.000 Top secret, you know, since the Department of Information clearance and, you know...

00:09:53.000 Just like myself, I've been through multiple polygraphs in my career.

00:09:57.000 So did this individual.

00:10:00.000 Does he have any idea or any theories about why this thing was following him?

00:10:06.000 No.

00:10:06.000 That's what freaked him out the most.

00:10:10.000 He didn't have any experience in his life like this.

00:10:12.000 It, like, totally blew his mind when he looked out his moonroof and then looked out the side of his car door and saw this 300-foot triangle.

00:10:21.000 It was, like, pre-dawn sky, but it was darker than the pre-dawn sky, and it had this, like, plasma edges.

00:10:29.000 Like, it was, like, purplish glowing edges and these three lights that had, like, these omnidirectional, like, almost like pool lights.

00:10:36.000 You know how there's...

00:10:37.000 You can't really tell where the light source is.

00:10:40.000 And it was totally trippy.

00:10:41.000 And that's just one example of many anecdotal, with some evidence, pilot stories.

00:10:48.000 And that's what made me dig deeper, and I started cultivating my network.

00:10:54.000 Has the government studied this before? 0.62

00:10:55.000 This wasn't just OSAP and ATIP and Bluebook and all this shit in the past, right? 0.94

00:10:59.000 This seems serious.

00:11:01.000 So, like, certainly the government has looked at this and, you know, I went to search for that program and that's what I ended up whistleblowing on, right?

00:11:08.000 So, when you...

00:11:10.000 What was...

00:11:10.000 How did you initially discover this program and, like, what was your first encounter with the information?

00:11:17.000 A very senior individual in the Intel community came to me when...

00:11:24.000 I guess I was asking a lot of questions because I'm a very inquisitive guy.

00:11:28.000 And it was like, hey, I need to introduce you to somebody.

00:11:33.000 He listed that certain person's academic credentials, which were beyond reproach, PhD-level education, clearance...

00:11:41.000 Resume was insane.

00:11:42.000 I'm like, well, okay, sure.

00:11:43.000 I'll talk to this person.

00:11:45.000 And I ended up meeting that person in a, you know, top secret facility.

00:11:50.000 And, you know, he started discussing like, hey, there's a program.

00:11:56.000 I was on it.

00:11:57.000 And, you know, we were reverse engineering crash material that we've recovered over the decades, you know, and he's like, I'm not joking.

00:12:06.000 You know, we're telling you because you guys have to report to the Deputy Secretary of Defense in Congress on this matter, right?

00:12:14.000 And we were actively briefing like Secretary Esper, Deputy Secretary Norquist, you know, Other cabinet-level folks, right?

00:12:25.000 And there's an oversight issue because you're the UAP task force.

00:12:30.000 You should be read into this stuff because, like, why spend the taxpayers' dollars looking at stuff that we already have data on?

00:12:41.000 And that spooked me, and that was, like, fall of 2019. And, you know, I don't take a guy's word for it.

00:12:48.000 I'm like, you know what?

00:12:50.000 Myself and my trusted colleagues that had a lot, a lot of special accesses like me, you know, we cultivated our network and we ultimately interviewed about 40 people or so, all the way up to multi-star generals.

00:13:05.000 Directors of agencies, mid-level guys that literally touched it, worked inside of it, all the stuff.

00:13:12.000 They brought intel reports for me to look at, documents, and a lot of that I could cross-verify with other people.

00:13:22.000 Oral sources that my high-level colleagues or I talked to and, you know, it checked out.

00:13:29.000 Especially when I had enough information on – and I know who specifically to ask.

00:13:36.000 Like, hey, well, I went right into this.

00:13:37.000 Like, I'm on the UAP task force and we went to those – I'll call them gatekeepers for the lack of a better term. 1.00

00:13:44.000 And they basically said, fuck you to me and my colleagues. 1.00

00:13:47.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:13:48.000 Hmm.

00:13:49.000 So why were these other people willing to discuss this with you?

00:13:53.000 Well, they determined I didn't need to know.

00:13:56.000 I was already cleared at such a high level handling presidential material and everything.

00:14:02.000 It's like, Dave needs to know.

00:14:04.000 And they felt that coming to us, it was a form of a protected disclosure.

00:14:10.000 They felt that they weren't really violating anything because, you know, we were the I'll call it the investigatory body for the Department of Defense and the intelligence community and Congress at the time.

00:14:23.000 You are allowed to...

00:14:27.000 You know, disclosed to a government official in an official capacity, and I, you know, did that.

00:14:32.000 And, of course, I protected those people.

00:14:34.000 And do know I took those people, a lot of them, and I brought them to the Intelligence Community Inspector General when I filed my complaint.

00:14:41.000 Because I don't want people to, you know, hear it from a second-hand source.

00:14:45.000 You know, people call it hearsay, whatever.

00:14:47.000 Though I have some first-hand knowledge, I... Eventually talk about someday.

00:14:51.000 I'm trying to get it cleared, but through security processes. 0.99

00:14:56.000 So they could hear it and hear the details like who, what, when, where, why, where the shit is, who's in control of it. 0.98

00:15:05.000 I think? 0.99

00:15:28.000 Thank you.

00:15:40.000 I think?

00:15:59.000 For both the House and the Senate.

00:16:02.000 And I went full open kimono.

00:16:04.000 I told them as much as I could within my time slot, if you will.

00:16:08.000 So...

00:16:10.000 This is obviously very compartmentalized, where there's only a few people that know about this information and they're not allowed to discuss it with other people.

00:16:20.000 When did this all start?

00:16:22.000 I mean, is this out of Roswell?

00:16:25.000 Is it predate that?

00:16:26.000 Like, when did they first realize that there are things that cannot be explained or can't be explained through conventional means?

00:16:35.000 Yeah, I mean, the program goes back a ways.

00:16:38.000 The precise beginning of it, I can't talk about, but I did, because security stuff, but I did talk about publicly the 1933 retrieval, and I did that tactically, and I ran that through the Security Approval Office because I wanted to show that this is much older and it's international.

00:16:58.000 It's not like a U.S. thing.

00:17:00.000 I mean, this stuff is landing or crashing around the world, And unexpected countries have had this happen.

00:17:08.000 And that's why I picked that because I thought that was an interesting case.

00:17:12.000 And then, of course, Pope Pius XII and the Vatican were involved, back-channeling it through the OSS, which became the CIA later, to FDR. And that's how the U.S. knew something weird happened in Italy during – well, right before World War II. So this was 1933 was the first documented – Uh,

00:17:31.000 that is the earliest one I can talk about.

00:17:34.000 Yeah.

00:17:35.000 There's something that predates that?

00:17:37.000 You could infer that.

00:17:39.000 You could infer that.

00:17:40.000 Yeah.

00:17:40.000 So this 33 one you said was in Italy?

00:17:43.000 Yeah, Magenta.

00:17:44.000 So it's, uh, I'm bad at geography.

00:17:46.000 I think that's like Lombardi region.

00:17:48.000 It's like northern, northwest Italy.

00:17:50.000 And what's the story behind it?

00:17:54.000 So, basically, it looked like it crashed, right?

00:17:58.000 The original shape most likely was like a lenticular disc-like craft, you know, with like two dinner plates.

00:18:05.000 What does lenticular mean?

00:18:06.000 So like two dinner plates, you know, smushed together, right?

00:18:09.000 Okay.

00:18:10.000 And there's like a, you know, like a bubble on top.

00:18:12.000 The classic.

00:18:13.000 Classic!

00:18:14.000 Like that.

00:18:15.000 Like that, okay.

00:18:16.000 But it looks like when it hits, the edges broke off.

00:18:20.000 So it became this, like, bell or acorn-shaped thing.

00:18:25.000 And there was nothing in it.

00:18:26.000 It was, like, just an artifact.

00:18:28.000 You know, there was no biological remnants, if you will.

00:18:32.000 So it's so funny because the Italians were... 1.00

00:18:49.000 I think?

00:19:04.000 That is not ours, but let's look at it together.

00:19:09.000 So that's kind of perhaps a tertiary reason the kind of Axis powers got together.

00:19:16.000 I'm not saying that's like the reason, but I think the Italians and the Germans were so intrigued with what they found from like an artifact perspective.

00:19:23.000 There was at least some scientific and military collaboration during the war.

00:19:28.000 The details of which...

00:19:30.000 I'm not sure of, but I know people that know that specific event that are currently still intel officers within this program in detail.

00:19:40.000 So was there witnesses to the crash or some sort of an understanding that something had crash-landed and then they discovered it?

00:19:47.000 Yeah, I forget the precise discovery.

00:19:52.000 I don't know if it was like local police officers or local farmers found it in the field, something like that.

00:19:57.000 I don't want to misspeak.

00:19:59.000 I assume some of the Italian researchers might have some fact witnesses that can orally say, oh yeah, my great-grandfather found it or something like that.

00:20:07.000 But I don't remember up to my head.

00:20:08.000 What was the scale of this vehicle?

00:20:10.000 It was probably like 20 feet by 10 feet, something like that.

00:20:14.000 Not super huge, but kind of big.

00:20:17.000 Do they think that this was a drone?

00:20:19.000 Do they think that this was occupied?

00:20:21.000 There was nothing in it.

00:20:22.000 So if it was piloted, if you will, by some sentience, I mean, your guess is as good as mine.

00:20:31.000 Hmm.

00:20:31.000 So what happened to that vehicle?

00:20:35.000 So we knew where it was being stored at a particular location after the crash, and then the military came in and we grabbed it towards the end of the war, you know, 1944-1945, because, like I said, Pope Pius XII already kind of Let's FDR know.

00:20:54.000 Why did the Pope get involved?

00:20:56.000 Because it's in Italy?

00:20:57.000 Well, interestingly enough, there's like a whole history of human intelligence prior to World War II and old money, the Vatican, the Italian mob, kind of the old country boys did a lot of informal intelligence collection and For the U.S., 0.61

00:21:15.000 and there's probably some books you can read on it, but it's really interesting.

00:21:19.000 You know, Human Intelligence Collection wasn't really formalized until the Office of Strategic Services, the OSS, which became the CIA in 1947. You had, you know, Paul Mellon and all these other affluent guys of all these old-money families that basically created the CIA. So that's probably the reason why.

00:21:41.000 So this thing that was recovered, this was the first documented one that the United States had access to?

00:21:50.000 I can't get into if it was the first or not, but it was an early one.

00:21:54.000 Very early.

00:21:55.000 Yeah.

00:21:55.000 So it's almost 100 years ago.

00:21:57.000 Yes.

00:21:57.000 And so they take this thing and then they bring it where?

00:22:02.000 Yeah, I can't get into that.

00:22:04.000 Okay.

00:22:05.000 So they bring it somewhere in the United States.

00:22:07.000 And was the attempt to try to back-engineer this thing?

00:22:12.000 Was the attempt to try to understand what it was?

00:22:15.000 Yeah, I mean, first of it, obviously, it's understanding the situation, right?

00:22:19.000 What do we have our hands on?

00:22:21.000 Yeah.

00:22:21.000 And like I've said in some other videos and stuff, you know, we took the Manhattan Project secrecy and overlaid it on this issue because that secrecy worked well for atomic bomb developments and whatnot.

00:22:32.000 And certainly this whole program in a nutshell, if I were to like summarize the 90 plus years of history, it is a reverse engineering program.

00:22:44.000 To garner some kind of insight.

00:22:47.000 And of course, not a lot of the things that we've learned from it are like directly, you know, ripped off the technology we found, but it has inspired other innovations that made its way into other U.S. classified programs over the year for national defense reasons,

00:23:04.000 you know, and it's a myriad of different things.

00:23:06.000 The UFO folklore is that this is where fiber optics were discovered first.

00:23:13.000 Yeah, I'm not going to break the seal on anything we've discovered or anything like that.

00:23:17.000 Yeah, it's a place I can't go to.

00:23:20.000 How limited are you in what you can discuss and what you can't discuss and why do they let you discuss any of this?

00:23:25.000 Yeah, so anything sensitive that I want to say as it relates to US government activity, whether it be intelligence stuff, military stuff, etc., I have to submit it through what they call DOPSR, DOD Office of Pre-Publication and Security Review.

00:23:39.000 That is something anybody who's been an intel officer, anybody with a clearance, has to submit, that kind of stuff.

00:23:46.000 Now, obviously, if you're writing a book about gardening, you don't have to, but if you're going to talk about anything military and intelligence related, you have to submit.

00:23:55.000 It's kind of a catch-22 for this office, right?

00:23:58.000 They're only looking at it from a security perspective.

00:24:01.000 They're not vouching for it or anything like that.

00:24:04.000 And that's like any author, right?

00:24:05.000 They could write a book about Navy SEALs and they're not vouching for the story.

00:24:10.000 They're vouching that you didn't say any nasty code words.

00:24:13.000 You didn't burn a specific ongoing classified program.

00:24:17.000 And for them, I mean, I'm not in their OODA loop, but certainly...

00:24:22.000 It's a catch-22 for them where if they want to redact and they propose a redaction, they're like, hey Dave, you can't say these sentences.

00:24:29.000 You can rewrite it and resubmit.

00:24:31.000 We can't necessarily tell you what agency said to redact it, but you're not allowed to say this.

00:24:40.000 They would be basically self-certifying there's a there there.

00:24:43.000 So in my opinion, probably the policy is like if it has to deal with the subject, we're not saying anything.

00:24:49.000 We're not proposing any redactions.

00:24:51.000 As long as he's not burning a conventional program, we kind of have to allow him to exercise his First Amendment rights.

00:25:00.000 So I think it's like a catch-22 for that office is kind of the long...

00:25:05.000 Or the short of the long answer.

00:25:06.000 So this is essentially one of the very early ones, 1933. How many crash retrieval incidents have there been?

00:25:16.000 It is double-digit.

00:25:18.000 The specific numbers I do know.

00:25:21.000 However, I can't discuss that.

00:25:22.000 I know it sounds like, oh, I'm being coy or whatever, but...

00:25:28.000 This show, any other interviews I do, Ford Intelligence Services are watching.

00:25:32.000 And it's like, I'm not here to help Russia and China calibrate their intelligence collection.

00:25:38.000 Like, oh, Dave said it's this number.

00:25:41.000 We missed a couple. 0.99

00:25:42.000 Shit, let's put it out for the KGB, SVR, GRU are now going to hit the streets to try to figure out which ones they missed. 0.99

00:25:49.000 So I'm here to protect national security and... 0.99

00:25:52.000 And I'm just trying to put all the general topics out there for public conversation to hold our government accountable, really.

00:26:00.000 Because I'm here as a fact witness because we have a constitutional oversight issue because this program has not been reported to Congress in the appropriate way.

00:26:16.000 And I can get into a senator I talked to that...

00:26:21.000 Has died recently, so I can explain to you why I'm so sure.

00:26:27.000 Besides what I read, which we can get into what Intel reports I read, I did get some stuff cleared.

00:26:33.000 So, during my investigation, I'm like, you know what?

00:26:37.000 I need to talk to somebody at the highest levels, right?

00:26:40.000 And this will give you an idea of the kind of people we talk to, and this is the only one I'm going to talk about using their name because they died two years ago.

00:26:48.000 So, In spring 2021, I actually flew with a couple colleagues of mine to Las Vegas, and I met with Senator Harry Reid about nine months before he died.

00:27:00.000 And of course, he's a private citizen now, and I wanted to brief him on The topic, and I wanted to get his kind of thought leadership on it, because, you know, he was a Gang of Eight member, right?

00:27:10.000 You know, which is the top, most cleared senators and congressmen.

00:27:14.000 He was the majority leader, for God's sake, of the Senate.

00:27:17.000 And I knew, you know, he helped sponsor the OSAP program that I mentioned, and where they looked at Skinwalker Ranch and some other things.

00:27:26.000 And I wanted to understand, like, what does Harry Reid actually know?

00:27:30.000 Like, why did he...

00:27:31.000 Give $21 million to DIA and Bigelow Aerospace for this.

00:27:37.000 So I'm sitting there in Harry Reid's living room, you know, right next to him with some other witnesses that were there with me.

00:27:45.000 And he straight up says, he's like, yeah, I knew we had UFO material.

00:27:49.000 I was denied access for decades.

00:27:52.000 I tried to get access.

00:27:54.000 And then he explained some of his efforts during OSAP. And I was like, holy shit, did the former majority leader just say that he just confirmed this to me as well? 0.98

00:28:06.000 I was already talking to these amazing high-level people, but I have Harry Reid literally saying, yes, we have material, and he knew it was non-human. 0.97

00:28:16.000 Did Harry Reid have personal experience with this?

00:28:19.000 I don't know if he's had any personal stuff in his personal life.

00:28:23.000 I mean, did he see it?

00:28:24.000 Did he witness?

00:28:25.000 In terms of seeing the material himself, he said he was denied access for years.

00:28:34.000 Decades was his term.

00:28:35.000 And he actually told me on behalf of me he was going – so he had like a weekly call with President Joe Biden at the time.

00:28:43.000 And he straight up said to me he was going to talk to President Biden about this issue, literally. 0.98

00:28:51.000 And then what he was telling me about OSAP, I was like, holy shit. 0.97

00:28:58.000 I have like 20 other people that told me this, dude. 0.98

00:29:00.000 So the real history, what fucking OSAP was, because I think there's a lot of people out there that think they were looking at ghosts, Skinwalker Ranch. 0.85

00:29:10.000 Yes, they went to the ranch as a secondary and tertiary objective. 0.85

00:29:15.000 But the real reason, so like there's a document that came out a couple years ago through FOIA from the Defense Intelligence Agency.

00:29:24.000 There was this special access program request that Harry Reid, you might have seen this, I think like George Knapp and company have reported on this.

00:29:43.000 I think?

00:29:49.000 That is a class of special access programs and bigoted means it's like by name and it's like it was like You can read the FOIA document.

00:29:56.000 It was like, you know, Harry Reid, James Inhofe Lou Elizondo, etc.

00:30:00.000 I'm like, why are you asking for the most serious SAP to be created?

00:30:06.000 For a program that ostensibly is looking at Skinwalker Ranch and stuff and doesn't make any sense.

00:30:12.000 So what really happened there and Harry Reid, God bless his soul, made this disclosure a couple weeks after we met in the New Yorker.

00:30:25.000 And you can look this up.

00:30:26.000 I think it was like a May 2021 New Yorker story where he says, I knew for decades and he made this disclosure, not me.

00:30:33.000 So I'm going to say the name of the contractor.

00:30:35.000 Harry Reid said this.

00:30:37.000 You know, we knew that Lockheed Martin had this material for decades.

00:30:40.000 I tried to get access and I was denied.

00:30:43.000 And specifically with the Lockheed Martin stuff, he was talking about during the OSAP program. 0.92

00:30:49.000 And for the people who are on this program, I submitted this shit to the officer, got this cleared, so don't freak out, but I'm telling the truth here. 0.93

00:30:57.000 So Lockheed Martin wanted to divest itself from this material at a specific facility that's known to me, that I provided to the Inspector General, like street address, all that shit, right? 0.97

00:31:10.000 And the idea was, if they made a catcher's mitt, a security catcher's mitt for this shit, you know, most serious sap possible, the contractor and the other government customer, which was the Central Intelligence Agency... 0.83

00:31:23.000 For that specific Lockheed material. 0.99

00:31:26.000 And it was shit that they recovered from like the 50s and stuff. 0.98

00:31:29.000 It was like bits and pieces of like hall structure, shit like that. 0.94

00:31:37.000 And so they were going to tech transfer it, and the $21 or $22 million was actually for Bigelow Aerospace to build out, you know, facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis equipment.

00:31:51.000 And I saw the staff meeting slides.

00:31:54.000 I saw the paperwork. 1.00

00:31:55.000 Like, there's a paperwork trail I've seen on this shit. 0.99

00:31:57.000 And I talked to the people involved in this program. 0.98

00:32:00.000 And, you know, even Jim Lekatsky, who ran the program, He's a retired DIA officer, PhD in engineering, even made this disclosure in his book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, page 152 to 153. And he also made a disclosure a couple of weeks ago,

00:32:18.000 I think it was on Weaponize podcast with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, where he's like, yeah, we had a whole craft and we broke into the hall and we gained access.

00:32:31.000 And he ran that through the same security process as I did.

00:32:34.000 And so Jim Lekatsky, who ran this program, is also going on the record that he is personally aware of intact vehicles and everything.

00:32:44.000 So they gained access.

00:32:46.000 What does that mean?

00:32:47.000 And by what method did they gain access?

00:32:49.000 The way he wrote it in his book, I can only infer it sounded forcible.

00:32:54.000 So through some kind of, you know, means, I don't know if it was like CO2 laser or something.

00:32:59.000 I don't actually know how they gained access, but imagine it was not permissive access. 0.99

00:33:04.000 They like broke into the damn thing. 0.94

00:33:06.000 So this thing is essentially sealed and it's some sort of, what was the shape of this thing? 0.99

00:33:15.000 He didn't disclose the shape on this particular vehicle as far as I recollect.

00:33:20.000 What about the dimensions?

00:33:21.000 I don't believe he did in his book.

00:33:23.000 But I think it's like chapter 11 in his new book or something.

00:33:26.000 I glanced at it.

00:33:27.000 But he did make that disclosure on video as well.

00:33:30.000 And I do encourage...

00:33:34.000 I think?

00:33:56.000 I don't know James Lekatsky, but I do encourage him to be a fact witness. 0.97

00:33:59.000 But going back to that transfer with Lockheed, long story short, can't get in all the nuanced details, but basically the CIA said, fuck you to DIA and Lockheed, and it was totally killed.

00:34:15.000 So Harry Reid's request to get the material transferred to the OSAP program. 0.94

00:34:20.000 I was totally killed because of bureaucracy and kind of fiefdom stuff.

00:34:24.000 So they used that money and then they wrote those defense intelligence reference documents.

00:34:31.000 The DIRDs is a lot of people who's familiar with it listening will know about.

00:34:36.000 And then they did look at Skinwalker Ranch because...

00:34:41.000 They thought that studying kind of the more woo-woo phenomenon aspects of this, and I've never been to the ranch, so I've never experienced the ranch for myself, but, you know, obviously, I think we both know a bunch of people that have been to the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff,

00:34:56.000 or at least alleged that.

00:34:59.000 They thought that they would be able to gain currency with the program, in this case, CIA, to unlock the key for the Lockheed Martin stuff. 0.98

00:35:09.000 Which actually, I'll tell you right now, it's so weird to say that, but I ran that shit through security. 0.69

00:35:16.000 To me, it's like an out-of-body experience to talk about that kind of detailed sensitivity, stuff like that. 0.93

00:35:22.000 But basically, they studied the ranch...

00:35:25.000 To gain favor to be like, hey, look at all this stuff we're figuring out, this paranormal stuff that's somehow connected to the phenomenon on the ranch.

00:35:32.000 But ultimately, they never gained favor with the government customer.

00:35:36.000 And then the program kind of died a slow death because of a lot of politics in the Pentagon.

00:35:41.000 So that's kind of the...

00:35:43.000 Long but short of it with the OSAP program that, you know, I wanted to make sure the public knew.

00:35:49.000 It's not what you think it was.

00:35:51.000 There was some other stuff behind the scenes that, you know, I wanted to speak truth to power on.

00:35:56.000 So this particular vehicle that they had recovered from the 1950s, what was the source of it?

00:36:04.000 Where did they find it?

00:36:05.000 Those details, I did not get cleared.

00:36:10.000 So, they have in possession this thing, they gain access to this thing, and what do they report once they've gained access to it?

00:36:18.000 Oh, those details, I do not know.

00:36:20.000 That's probably a question for Dr. Lakatsky.

00:36:24.000 I presume he knows those details.

00:36:26.000 I don't know.

00:36:27.000 So this thing is housed somewhere?

00:36:31.000 It is, yes.

00:36:33.000 Currently?

00:36:35.000 It may still be in the same location that I know about, yes.

00:36:38.000 And how many people have access to this, and how did they prevent this information from being released?

00:36:46.000 I mean, it goes back to the compartmentation and kind of the ecosystem of secrecy in this community, right?

00:36:53.000 Only a limited amount of people, at least at the time, on Lockheed Martin's side, And Lockheed Martin was complaining basically like, look, the secrecy is ridiculous.

00:37:04.000 We can't even bring the right engineers.

00:37:07.000 Imagine you're like a hot engineer.

00:37:11.000 Hot shot engineer.

00:37:12.000 You might be hot too.

00:37:13.000 I don't know.

00:37:14.000 But you're fresh out of grad school.

00:37:16.000 Maybe you're like the best PhD electrical engineer. 0.99

00:37:19.000 You want to do cool shit. 0.97

00:37:20.000 You want to publish an IEEE. You want to climb the ladder corporately and that kind of thing. 0.98

00:37:28.000 A Lockheed Martin executive comes to you, yeah, dude, I can reach into something really crazy, but you're never going to publish papers on it.

00:37:38.000 You're never going to be able to tell people what you worked on, and it's probably not the most career-enhancing.

00:37:43.000 But if you want to work on something cool, but I can't tell you because it's unacknowledged until you sign this piece of paper, non-disclosure agreement...

00:37:56.000 You know, sorry, but here's the raw deal. 0.99

00:37:58.000 And, you know, a lot of people are like, fuck you, no. 0.99

00:38:01.000 And it's not like Lockheed Martin could broadcast this to universities like, come work for us. 1.00

00:38:07.000 You'll work on crazy shit. 1.00

00:38:09.000 But that is... 1.00

00:38:11.000 Very akin to a lot of other black programs in the government that are out of knowledge in nature. 0.99

00:38:17.000 You don't know what you're signing up for until you get bred in.

00:38:19.000 And I've been briefed to a lot of that kind of conventional stuff in my career.

00:38:23.000 Trevor Burrus So that's one of the problems that Bob Lazar – and I'd love to get your take on Bob Lazar.

00:38:30.000 One of the things that he talked about was that science – Can't really operate in a vacuum.

00:38:36.000 When you separate the metallurgists from the propulsion experts, from the biological experts, and they're not allowed to communicate with each other, and they're not allowed to bring in other experts to have different Well, that was the frustration that I had some friends that I've known my entire career,

00:38:51.000 like, almost 14 years, right?

00:38:53.000 I literally know them personally.

00:38:55.000 I had a relationship with them.

00:38:57.000 But they ended up, you know, spilling the beans where, you know, look, we're on the program.

00:39:02.000 I'm an engineer for X, Y, and Z. We can't even cross-talk across, like, the cubicles, for God's sakes.

00:39:10.000 Like, I can't...

00:39:11.000 I'm looking at Material X doing some...

00:39:14.000 X-ray diffraction testing on it, which is like shooting a stream of electrons and seeing how it bends and looking at the atomic arrangements.

00:39:22.000 I can't even cross-talk that with another aspect of the program.

00:39:26.000 This is ridiculous. 0.87

00:39:27.000 And that's kind of their frustration... 0.94

00:39:31.000 Yeah, I knew you were probably going to ask me about Bulbasar.

00:39:33.000 I figured as much.

00:39:36.000 Why did they do that, though?

00:39:37.000 If everybody was already sworn to secrecy, everybody already has NDAs, it seems the most effective way of reverse engineering or at least gaining an understanding of how these things are structured.

00:39:47.000 Well, that's exactly how Manhattan was, right?

00:39:49.000 People working on the fuses for the bomb didn't necessarily know it was going to a nuclear weapon.

00:39:55.000 And I've seen this kind of compartmentationist obtuse secrecy in other programs, and it is debilitating for progress.

00:40:01.000 And honestly, as a former fiduciary of the taxpayer dollars, it's not the best modus operandus to do it that way.

00:40:10.000 And very few people kind of had that top-down, could look across the silos and see what was going on.

00:40:17.000 It just became very dysfunctional and they were afraid of people being too cross-briefed into the different silos for counter-espionage, counter-intelligence.

00:40:27.000 Right.

00:40:32.000 And, you know, we were afraid of Russian spies, Soviet moles. 1.00

00:40:36.000 And so we made it ultra locked down, but to the detriment of national security. 0.99

00:40:41.000 And that was one of the crazy things that got me that I wanted to whistleblow on because I'm like, this is so stupid. 0.94

00:40:47.000 Like, we should be making more progress on this.

00:40:49.000 Were there any breaches that you're aware of where foreign agents were able to gain access to materials or an understanding of what we know?

00:40:58.000 So I'll tell you about some intel documents I read that kind of obliquely answers that question.

00:41:03.000 So there was a sense of human-derived forward intelligence that I read.

00:41:09.000 So I had access to kind of the AATIP, OSAP classified archives, and I was like thumbing through everything, and there were some other people who were bringing me documents to evaluate.

00:41:20.000 And I'll never forget, I had...

00:41:24.000 I want to say stolen by the U.S. intelligence assessment from a certain foreign adversary discussing the U.S. reverse engineering program.

00:41:34.000 And I was like... 0.99

00:41:36.000 And that was actually another, like, what the fuck? 0.99

00:41:58.000 I was like, well, I want more. 0.99

00:42:00.000 I know who wrote this or who got it on behalf of the United States government.

00:42:05.000 So I went to that certain agency through the approved and official way.

00:42:09.000 And this is kind of part of the merriest reprisals against me.

00:42:14.000 The agency was like, oh, yes, we have what you're looking for, Dave.

00:42:20.000 Yeah.

00:42:39.000 And all of a sudden, the agency ghosted my boss and I for like two months.

00:42:44.000 And then when I really pressed them hard to gain access, because I'm like, I have a need to know. 0.98

00:42:50.000 I need to evaluate this intelligence for fucking Congress. 0.88

00:42:54.000 And they debriefed me from all my accesses over in that other sister agency and made up some bogus excuse, like I shouldn't have been briefed anything in the first place, literally. 1.00

00:43:08.000 And basically gave me an administrative middle finger like, persona non grata, don't ever fucking ask us about that shit again. 0.88

00:43:16.000 And I'm sure the person who made the oops that told me they had what I was looking for probably got admonished and slapped on the wrist because I never heard from that person again, even though it was somebody I actually used to work on occasion with. 0.99

00:43:30.000 So that was also another way I knew I was...

00:43:37.000 There was a lot of smoke and fire because I had stuff like that happen to me.

00:43:42.000 So, knowing that our adversaries were aware of this reverse engineering program, are we aware of their reverse engineering programs?

00:43:56.000 Yeah.

00:43:57.000 Which countries?

00:43:58.000 You could probably guess, and it won't be too shocking.

00:44:04.000 But I won't acknowledge what the U.S. may know.

00:44:07.000 So, are we aware of numbers in terms of at least a rough estimate of how many are available to these other...

00:44:16.000 Yeah.

00:44:17.000 How many?

00:44:19.000 That's like super sensitive.

00:44:20.000 But there's more than one.

00:44:21.000 Yeah.

00:44:21.000 You can read into that.

00:44:23.000 You can read into that.

00:44:24.000 And has anyone made any progress?

00:44:28.000 Yeah, I can't get into...

00:44:30.000 If we've made progress, if they've made progress, because that's like straight up some national security stuff.

00:44:36.000 But like...

00:44:38.000 Just to be clear, I want the U.S. populace to learn a lot of this.

00:44:43.000 And this is why – another reason why I went public is like I need to call everybody out.

00:44:48.000 I'm not here to admonish the entire government, mind you.

00:44:51.000 But there is an element of the U.S. government and its clear defense contractor base that – We have a three-branch of government oversight issue, like going back to Harry Reid.

00:45:02.000 Harry Reid didn't even get access. 0.80

00:45:03.000 I fucking talked to him myself to confirm that. 0.97

00:45:06.000 And he said he was going to go talk to Biden. 0.98

00:45:10.000 Because I think there needs to be a disclosure plan. 0.72

00:45:13.000 And this goes back to what's currently in legislation right now that's super fucking important.

00:45:19.000 Because 90 some odd percent of this should be open for public discovery, public analysis and academia.

00:45:30.000 This should be like, at very least, true nuclear programs such as nuclear physics, you study in a university.

00:45:38.000 Nuclear weapons, classified.

00:45:40.000 Because that makes people in the pink mist.

00:45:43.000 That's really sensitive.

00:45:44.000 We don't need everybody to know how to do that.

00:45:46.000 So I think the stuff that is like legit weapons-related stuff, that's like straight-up national superiority stuff, sure.

00:45:55.000 Reasonably classify that, but these programs, we need a change.

00:46:02.000 And that's why you saw the Schumer Amendment, right?

00:46:05.000 And I think you might have...

00:46:07.000 Read that on air or something in a previous episode, if I remember correctly.

00:46:10.000 You know, Chuck Schumer, and I knew about the amendment a couple months before I went public, and that's kind of another reason why I did what I did.

00:46:17.000 I'm like...

00:46:18.000 I'm like, the only guy that kind of has the opportunity to do this, I know what's in the chute, so to speak, that Chuck Schumer and his staff had with the Schumer Amendment, which is 67 pages of literal, we want to disclose.

00:46:32.000 And I'm like, I have to spike the football by going public because, you know, I can read the tea leaves on the hill and I think that they were hesitant to do anything without being able to point to something publicly. 0.95

00:46:45.000 And I'm like, I'll be that fucking guy and just send it. 0.67

00:46:50.000 And then, of course, a month after I went public, I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge. 0.95

00:46:58.000 And I do know he talked to the White House about the amendment, too, because it's not like Chuck Schumer is going to propose groundbreaking legislation like that without talking to the National Security Advisor or President.

00:47:09.000 I imagine he did so.

00:47:11.000 And, you know, so you have the 67-page amendments, right?

00:47:15.000 It's called the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023. We're good to go.

00:47:46.000 In Capitol Hill.

00:48:02.000 And the act is really long, but the main meat of it is about halfway through the act, it talks about a presidential panel or agency, which is nine-person, and a controlled UAP disclosure plan that's six years in length,

00:48:18.000 conceivably from 2024 to 2030. And this panel, and you can read this, this is public law, anybody can read this, They want scientists, economists, sociologists, etc.

00:48:30.000 It's kind of like who you would want to help craft the plan for the president and this whole bill was actually – Yeah.

00:48:41.000 Yeah.

00:48:46.000 Yeah.

00:48:59.000 Support that.

00:49:01.000 So the Senate already passed it.

00:49:03.000 They're chill with this.

00:49:04.000 This is like, we're good to go. 0.99

00:49:07.000 But there's pushback in the House right now that is, pardon my language, fucking ridiculous. 0.96

00:49:13.000 So they're saying, for one, it's duplicating the DOD Aero's office activities. 0.98

00:49:20.000 They're doing good things.

00:49:21.000 They're looking at UAP reports, trying to figure out what's balloons and air trash.

00:49:25.000 And what's weird stuff.

00:49:26.000 And of course, they are doing an historical review to try to understand the U.S.'s history on this too.

00:49:33.000 But the problem is with that agency, it's within the DOD and IC, not above.

00:49:39.000 So you have an issue reaching into Department of Energy, other agencies.

00:49:43.000 You know, cabinet-level agencies.

00:49:45.000 You need a presidential-level panel that can declassify stuff, reach into other agencies, and tell certain secretaries, we're coming in, we want your stuff, under presidential authority.

00:49:58.000 So what's happening in the House, from what I'm told from people on the Hill that are working the issue right now, you have the chair of the House Intel Committee, Mike Turner, who's blocking this.

00:50:11.000 From Ohio.

00:50:12.000 Dayton, Ohio area.

00:50:14.000 Wright-Patt.

00:50:14.000 Weird.

00:50:16.000 Wright-Patt meaning Wright-Patterson Air Force.

00:50:18.000 Yeah.

00:50:19.000 And Mike Rogers, which I'm kind of surprised, from Alabama, who's the chair of the House Armed Services Committee.

00:50:26.000 So I have a problem with Mike and Mike right now.

00:50:28.000 So Mike Turner, now remember I went to his committee in December of last year.

00:50:35.000 He wasn't there, but his staff and lawyers were.

00:50:38.000 And of course he goes on Fox Business on After the hearing, he doesn't use my name.

00:50:44.000 He's like this whistleblower.

00:50:44.000 He has no idea what he's talking about.

00:50:46.000 I'm like, really?

00:50:48.000 Tell me, Mike.

00:50:49.000 Have you ever been an intel officer or served in the military?

00:50:52.000 Oh, wait.

00:50:53.000 You've been the mayor of Dayton, Ohio.

00:50:56.000 You were voted most corrupt person in Congress a couple years ago and pull up his PAC donors.

00:51:03.000 Who are his biggest donors?

00:51:05.000 Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing.

00:51:08.000 Okay, so, and first of all, if you thought you needed more information or wanted to talk to me personally, why didn't you call me back when I reported to your committee?

00:51:17.000 So, and furthermore, besides blocking the bill...

00:51:32.000 Yeah, I think.

00:51:44.000 And Mike Turner is looking to fund, according to staffers I've talked to the last two weeks, an opposition candidate for Tim's re-election in 2024. So why is Mike Turner going out of his way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee representative on the Oversight Committee?

00:52:03.000 And why are you blocking a bill, and it's not going to cost much, a couple million a year max, you know, for the panel, which is like vaporware in U.S. government speak, right?

00:52:13.000 Right.

00:52:14.000 If there's nothing to see here, why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in the House blocking this bill that is, in my opinion, the most important legislation for transparency in American history? 0.94

00:52:28.000 If there's nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy, multi-star generals I talk to are crazy, the intel docs that I read are incorrect, they're fucking forgeries or passage material or something like that. 0.89

00:52:40.000 Good friends of mine that worked on the program are bullshitting me in some consorted operation against me and my colleagues that it would be totally crazy to even conduct that because I took precautions. 0.94

00:52:52.000 Then why don't we just pass this and see what happens?

00:52:57.000 And what do you think the answer to that is?

00:53:00.000 Special interests want to keep the genie in the bottle, even though the toothpaste is coming out of the tube.

00:53:04.000 And I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex that doesn't want change.

00:53:09.000 And I'm not here to be some total adversary.

00:53:13.000 I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process on this issue.

00:53:20.000 We're good to go.

00:53:47.000 This answers a fundamental question for humanity.

00:53:53.000 Are we alone or what happens when we die?

00:53:55.000 Well, I don't know about that, but are we alone?

00:53:57.000 Well, the answer is we're not alone.

00:53:59.000 And I know that with 100% certainty, which as an intel officer, you never say 100%, but...

00:54:07.000 All things pointed towards, based on the people I talk to, like Harry Reid, and I use him as an example, but I talk to the highest of the high people you could possibly talk to if you catch my drift.

00:54:21.000 So...

00:54:23.000 Unless all of them are lying and they're covering up something else, which I don't even know what it would be at this point, because the phenomenon is real.

00:54:30.000 It's been going on for thousands of years.

00:54:33.000 People have been seeing strange things and not everybody's mass hallucinating.

00:54:37.000 So, that's kind of my long diatribe about what's happening.

00:55:02.000 Okay, that isn't a possible origin, but the Schumer Amendment, if you read it, it specifically uses non-human intelligence, NHI, very deliberately because we want to catch everything because what if some of this stuff is not ET and they're going to use that as an escape clause?

00:55:18.000 Like, well, this stuff that we don't even know if it's extraterrestrial, so this doesn't apply.

00:55:23.000 So that's why we wanted to be as broad as possible.

00:55:26.000 I mean, besides ET, I mean, a lot of it would be my own...

00:55:31.000 Personal opinion?

00:55:33.000 I think we have a couple conceivable buckets, and I'm using the work of Jacques Vallée, other people that have thought deeply on the issue, on how the phenomenon has changed since antiquity.

00:55:49.000 It showed itself.

00:55:51.000 In a different way, like a good example is like witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with, you know, paralysis in medieval and enlightenment era became this alien abduction phenomenon in the modern era.

00:56:07.000 And is it the...

00:56:11.000 The recipient and their analytical overlay cognitively seeing the phenomenon based on a modern interpretation, you know, inside out?

00:56:19.000 Or is the phenomenon – this is like Jacques Vallée's book Passport to Magnolia.

00:56:24.000 Magnolia, I can never pronounce it right, 1969, where he talks about – I think?

00:56:49.000 I think?

00:57:10.000 You know, decades, if not hundreds of years in the past, you know, wheels of Ezekiel, right?

00:57:15.000 They're seeing these, like, disc-type objects, right?

00:57:17.000 And unless Ezekiel is tripping or this is an allegory or fable in the Bible, you know, let's say the event happens.

00:57:25.000 Just like in the Vedic text, you have the battles, the blue people and the battles in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons. 0.57

00:57:35.000 Like, what's going on there?

00:57:36.000 I mean, maybe that's a...

00:57:37.000 Graham Hancock or Randall Carlson type thing, they know more than I. So there is a real phenomenon that origin undetermined, but it's trippy, and sometimes it presents itself in a non-corporeal form too.

00:57:54.000 Orbs, balls of energy, they don't appear as some kind of bipedal hominid like some people have espoused.

00:58:03.000 So I think that might be Call it interdimensional, call it shadow biome, crypto-terrestrial.

00:58:10.000 I mean, there's a lot of different theories.

00:58:12.000 What are the primary theories?

00:58:14.000 The primary theories are from another planet or from another dimension.

00:58:19.000 I think those are the primary.

00:58:20.000 I mean, there's certainly...

00:58:23.000 Origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans because we're just our meat is stuck in 3D and we don't understand and our IQs are only so high.

00:58:32.000 So there might be some origins that we don't understand.

00:58:35.000 In terms of like interdimensional travel.

00:58:38.000 Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, if you talk to mainstream physicists, they say, like, crossing dimensions physically is kind of a trope of sci-fi.

00:58:48.000 And, you know, that's why I used an example.

00:58:51.000 And I know some physicists don't like me talking about this theory, but it is a theory.

00:58:55.000 You know, like, so the holographic principle, which was originally conceived to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon of a black hole, which is a...

00:59:07.000 Distance away from the singularity of a black hole where if you cross it, you're fucked because you're going to get ripped to shreds or you're not coming back.

00:59:14.000 And that principle talks about how information basically from higher dimensional space can be encoded in lower dimensional space. 0.66

00:59:24.000 And the easiest example is like...

00:59:34.000 We're good to go.

00:59:53.000 Is really operating in higher spatial dimensions, but is either being projected or quasi-projected into our 3D plus time space, which is really trippy to think about, but we literally do it on a day-to-day basis, like casting shadows.

01:00:07.000 So, and that might be some of what we're seeing, too.

01:00:10.000 But, I mean, I presume we know more.

01:00:13.000 The people I talked to did not...

01:00:19.000 We're good to go.

01:00:37.000 Yeah, and a lot of that is based off of, like, large—this is my bachelor's degree talking. 0.78

01:00:42.000 I know there's going to be, like, some physicist who has a PhD who's like, oh, Dave, you fucked that up.

01:00:47.000 But basically, you know, from high-energy particle collisions and based on the deflection angles and all this stuff, what happens when the particles collide, you know— Confirm certain theoretical frameworks about extra spatial dimensions.

01:01:03.000 And, you know, I can't speak with any real authority on, you know, precisely how that works.

01:01:09.000 But a lot of, whether it be string theory or quantum mechanics, are based off of higher spatial dimensions.

01:01:16.000 And, you know, so that is a mainstream physics theoretical framework.

01:01:23.000 That's not like wacky or loony or anything like that.

01:01:26.000 But that's...

01:01:28.000 It's basically a possibility.

01:01:31.000 But like I said, we don't really have a good theory if you lived in 5D space, for example.

01:01:37.000 It's almost like, remember the ending of the movie Interstellar, right?

01:01:41.000 Yes.

01:01:41.000 Where he's pushing the books.

01:01:43.000 He's in a tesseract, which is like a 4-5D structure.

01:01:47.000 But he's trying to interact with 3D space.

01:01:49.000 And of course, he leaves that space to come back to his daughter many years later at the ending of the movie.

01:01:55.000 Great movie.

01:01:56.000 Yeah.

01:01:58.000 So, that's a way to conceptualize it in something you may have watched in film.

01:02:03.000 It's kind of like the ending of Interstellar.

01:02:05.000 Oh, yeah.

01:02:06.000 Yeah, there you go.

01:02:09.000 Which is based on what?

01:02:11.000 Like, what theory?

01:02:12.000 So the physicist Kip Thorne was the very famous guy.

01:02:16.000 He was a big black hole and wormhole guy.

01:02:19.000 I think it's Caltech or somewhere in California.

01:02:22.000 Kip Thorne actually did all the physics equations and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they were conceptualizing and visualizing, uh, Black holes and wormholes and all that stuff correctly in the movie.

01:02:36.000 We saw, like, the halo around the black hole when they were coming in with the ship and everything.

01:02:42.000 That's actually based off of real physics models that Kip Thorne did the calculations for, which is pretty cool, actually, that Christopher Nolan took it to that level, you know?

01:02:51.000 So this idea that these beings, or whatever you want to call them, exist in some other dimension, do we have...

01:03:02.000 I mean, I don't know what you can say about this.

01:03:03.000 Do we have an understanding?

01:03:05.000 Do we have any sort of communication with these beings that give us some sort of an understanding or a map of this?

01:03:14.000 Yeah, the interaction stuff, it's a sensitive area.

01:03:23.000 Yeah.

01:03:41.000 Then you realize we've recovered artifacts and, you know, biologics or, you know, dead pilots, if you will, even though it's, you know, kind of creepy to even think about that in your worldview.

01:03:53.000 You don't think they were ever, you know, alive sometimes too, right?

01:03:58.000 You know, I'll leave it at that only because, you know, that is something, you know, the president and his cabinet need to disclose this in a controlled manner going back to that amendment.

01:04:09.000 You know, I'm not here.

01:04:11.000 I think?

01:04:31.000 Rip off the band-aid and it's simple.

01:04:35.000 There's a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need to happen and that's why I'm laying out all the general stuff that needs to be talked about during the disclosure process.

01:04:44.000 But I should not be the one disclosing and it would be highly inappropriate because I care about the health of the United States and its people and national security for me to do so.

01:04:56.000 So I know there's people that are like, oh, why doesn't Dave say X, Y, and Z? It's like...

01:05:00.000 This is serious.

01:05:01.000 This is not like, haha, let me tell you a good story.

01:05:04.000 I'm a serious guy. 0.98

01:05:05.000 I ruined my fucking career doing this. 0.99

01:05:08.000 I was going to make lieutenant colonel in the Air Force this winter. 1.00

01:05:11.000 I was on track to be, you know, a flag officer, equivalent civilian in my career.

01:05:17.000 I spent 18 years in uniform, if you count the cadet time, right?

01:05:22.000 My whole adult life was serving as an intel officer.

01:05:25.000 But I wanted to see—and I'm 36, right?

01:05:28.000 Older millennial.

01:05:29.000 I wanted to see change, so I'm throwing the flag out, and I'm here to hold the government accountable to do the right thing in a manner that is mature and thorough, because I don't begin to say that I know everything,

01:05:45.000 all the different ramifications of saying certain things publicly.

01:05:49.000 I don't know all the answers to that, and that's why I have to be careful, because I don't even know— I'll call it, you know, collateral damage effects to use kind of a military term.

01:05:58.000 What may happen of certain things in detail that are revealed that I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something that I'm not privy to.

01:06:08.000 So this is like a serious—this is not like a fun situation.

01:06:11.000 This is like humanity changing, hopefully in a good way, but this is like, you know— Quite serious.

01:06:20.000 And I, you know, risked my personal and professional life and personal life because things have happened to me to be public like this.

01:06:30.000 And, you know, I swore an oath, but, you know, myself and my generation, you know, want to see a change.

01:06:36.000 Can you discuss the things that have happened to you personally?

01:06:38.000 Yeah, so a lot of the stuff I have to be purposely vague because there's an open Inspector General reprisal investigation on my behalf, and I'm not here to compromise the investigation by tipping off my antibodies that may be watching right now.

01:06:53.000 But...

01:06:55.000 You know, when I really started looking into this, I mean, they came after me so hard to try to revoke my clearance, ruin my career, kicked me out of my agency, and they accused me of everything you could possibly think of with,

01:07:14.000 like, no evidence.

01:07:15.000 For example, At first, they wanted to say, oh, Dave, you have mental health stuff you didn't report to us.

01:07:23.000 We're concerned because we think you might have an ongoing mental health issue.

01:07:27.000 I'm like, what are you talking about?

01:07:29.000 I reported that I had PTSD from Afghanistan and And my military service several years ago.

01:07:36.000 And I sought help for that.

01:07:37.000 Like, I'm not ashamed of that.

01:07:38.000 You know, I'm high-functioning autistic.

01:07:40.000 And I didn't know that until my early 30s.

01:07:43.000 And how I processed trauma, I didn't really understand until many years later.

01:07:49.000 And, you know, I sought help for that.

01:07:51.000 And they were trying to say that, like, I had some secret mental health problem that I haven't been...

01:07:59.000 We're good to go.

01:08:14.000 I was under criminal investigation for a couple months, and I didn't even know that, nor did they interview me, but they made a finding with no evidence they tried to use against me that I had to spend money to basically litigate and maintain my employment and my clearance,

01:08:29.000 which I did, for the record.

01:08:32.000 I maintained my clearance.

01:08:33.000 I resigned with full accesses.

01:08:36.000 You know, I'm just debriefed now, but I maintained my top secret eligibility and I left with my own accord.

01:08:43.000 And of course, they ruined one of my boss's careers in another agency.

01:08:50.000 They walked him out of the building and revoked his clearance and terminated him as a show of force after they were going after me.

01:08:57.000 And I feel sorry for that certain individual.

01:09:01.000 And they came after co-workers of mine.

01:09:03.000 I can't get into who, what, when, where, and why to protect their identities and their own process.

01:09:08.000 So that's what happened to me professionally.

01:09:11.000 And then what happened to me personally was...

01:09:16.000 Very disturbing.

01:09:19.000 So I have to be very vague about this because ongoing investigation, but I think you'll understand what I'm saying, is they showed my wife and I they can touch me at any time.

01:09:32.000 Two times.

01:09:34.000 And it was very disturbing.

01:09:36.000 It was in conjunction with some other people getting a message like that that are, let's say, publicly well-known, some that aren't publicly well-known. 0.99

01:09:45.000 And, of course, I immediately reported that to, you know, counterintelligence, federal law enforcement local to me because it, you know, wasn't criminal, but it was like a fuck you to me. 0.98

01:09:55.000 And this was right before I filed my... 0.98

01:09:59.000 Whistleblower complaint.

01:10:00.000 Now, I don't know who did this.

01:10:03.000 Entity who did X, Y, and Z to my wife and I. Identity unknown, but it fucking happens. 0.98

01:10:09.000 And I provided that documentation to a couple special agents. 0.98

01:10:14.000 And I just knew that it was getting serious.

01:10:19.000 And, you know, as... 0.99

01:10:22.000 First of all, I'm the kind of person, I'm from Pittsburgh, you know, like, Sealtown, I don't take shit from people. 0.98

01:10:29.000 And... 0.99

01:10:30.000 I decided, fuck it, I'm going to file an inspector general complaint to protect myself. 0.99

01:10:34.000 I'm in fear for my safety. 0.99

01:10:37.000 My wife's an Air Force veteran, too, and a very strong individual, but as a man, you don't want to put your family at risk.

01:10:46.000 And, you know, did certain other measures which I won't talk about to protect myself, you know, physically.

01:10:52.000 And I could not believe that that was happening to me.

01:10:57.000 No kidding.

01:10:58.000 And I knew I needed to do something internally.

01:11:02.000 And then when I saw the writing on the wall...

01:11:05.000 I knew earlier this year, and of course I knew about the Schumer Amendment like I mentioned earlier, and I knew I'm like, you know, I got to do this for my own protection because me leaving the Federal Service, because I resigned my Air Force commission.

01:11:16.000 I totally threw that career away to do what I thought was the right and patriotic thing.

01:11:23.000 To whistleblow on this, you know, and I swore my oath 18 years ago, and that sounds hokey, but I believe, you know, integrity first, service before self, and excellence is all we do.

01:11:35.000 That's the Air Force motto.

01:11:36.000 And I'm like, this is not going to help me personally.

01:11:40.000 Like, love talking to you.

01:11:43.000 I like spreading this message because it's the right and ethical thing to do, but this is a nightmare for me.

01:11:49.000 I don't want to be public.

01:11:50.000 I'm I've served the country in clandestine and covert operations for 14 years.

01:11:54.000 I've done technical intelligence for some of the most high profile takedowns in US history.

01:11:59.000 I shouldn't even be here.

01:12:02.000 But I am because I want to see change.

01:12:05.000 I saw something unethical and unmoral.

01:12:07.000 I want to make sure I hold that element of the government accountable. 0.98

01:12:11.000 And it was the right fucking thing to do. 0.96

01:12:14.000 And I get kind of emotional about that because, you know, my career has been service and sacrifice. 0.99

01:12:20.000 And, you know, I had two friends of mine die.

01:12:23.000 And I've talked about this publicly before.

01:12:27.000 And And I'm segueing a little bit, but the suffering of the American intelligence officer is something that for their service of their country, and we're not talking about this subject, obviously, people don't realize the kind of trauma Intel professionals go through.

01:12:45.000 So, first of all, I had a friend six months after I got back from Afghanistan.

01:12:49.000 His name is Captain Dave Lyon.

01:12:51.000 There's a park in Peterson Space Force Base named after him.

01:12:56.000 I remember seeing his cough and come off the plane.

01:12:58.000 So, you know, I saw him die.

01:13:02.000 That fucked me up for a number of years, and that's what gave me a lot of my problems that I ended up dealing with.

01:13:08.000 But then I had...

01:13:08.000 I remarried, and then my best man, Captain Ben Hine, Air Force Intelligence Officer, Air Force Special Operations Command.

01:13:18.000 I've known him for years.

01:13:19.000 He's my closest friend.

01:13:20.000 You know, best man at my wedding.

01:13:22.000 And then 28 days later...

01:13:26.000 Unfortunately, he suffered from depression and it was – as his best friend, he didn't even confide in me.

01:13:31.000 I remember chit-chatting him – chit-chatting with him on the phone one day about 28 days after he was my best man and he didn't tell me anything was wrong with him.

01:13:41.000 And a few hours later, he walked in his backyard and shot himself.

01:13:45.000 And I gave his eulogy at his – At his funeral.

01:13:52.000 And that really, you know, really affected me.

01:13:55.000 And with what Ben experienced, which I can't get into all the stuff he did, obviously, but imagine being the guy that decides that that person is bad.

01:14:07.000 Fire the hellfire. 0.89

01:14:10.000 That person is now pink mist. 1.00

01:14:12.000 They're dead.

01:14:12.000 You just played God.

01:14:14.000 Let's go back to, you know, the wife and kids at the end of your shift.

01:14:18.000 And a lot of that, you know, I did the same kind of thing.

01:14:21.000 I did a lot of stuff overseas involved interrogations and stuff.

01:14:27.000 You know, ops that you had to decide if a target is bad enough where you're going to affect their life forever and their family's life forever.

01:14:35.000 And that's the silent suffering of intel professionals, especially during the global war on terror, which was, you know, 21 years or so.

01:14:43.000 And, you know, the trauma and the mental health problems that people...

01:14:51.000 Yeah.

01:15:09.000 I just wanted to highlight that during the show because that was just near and dear to myself.

01:15:15.000 So people are aware of the service of military intelligence and civilian intelligence professionals.

01:15:22.000 So that's...

01:15:23.000 Have to make really tough decisions for the country that affect people's lives on the receiving end.

01:15:29.000 Was there a concern while you're going through all this that if you didn't come out with this that we would be stuck in the same sort of loop for a long, long period of time and no one would ever have access to this stuff?

01:15:44.000 That they would continue?

01:15:45.000 Yep.

01:15:46.000 Yeah, and you nailed it on the head.

01:15:49.000 I think my generation wants to change.

01:15:51.000 The under-40 generation, their parents went to war, their older brothers went to war.

01:15:56.000 We're fighting two dangerous proxy wars right now, which is extremely... 1.00

01:16:03.000 Stupid. 1.00

01:16:03.000 I don't know a better way of saying it, to be quite frank. 1.00

01:16:05.000 I can give you my own assessment on that if you want.

01:16:07.000 But we're in this loop.

01:16:10.000 We're not progressing in a healthy way as a civilization.

01:16:16.000 It's becoming more divisive, whether you're on the left or the right.

01:16:19.000 You know, people aren't even looking up.

01:16:21.000 All they care about is TikTok.

01:16:22.000 You know, we're creating potentially dangerous artificial intelligence.

01:16:27.000 You know, I even saw that in my government service.

01:16:30.000 And I think humanity is kind of stuck right now and we need to change.

01:16:35.000 And this subject is like one of the only unifying, ontologically shocking, but I would think generally unifying topics where...

01:16:45.000 Where if announced by the US and other major powers that have knowledge in a controlled manner, that this could change humanity for the better, make us look inside ourselves, become less divisive, and care maybe a little less about superficial things.

01:17:03.000 So that's kind of my philosophical motivation to do what I did.

01:17:10.000 And you're confronted with one of the biggest mysteries in human history.

01:17:15.000 Yeah.

01:17:15.000 Which is, are we alone?

01:17:17.000 And it seems like at least some people have the answer to that.

01:17:22.000 100%.

01:17:22.000 I mean, the people I talked to certainly did, and they had close personal knowledge, and the intel reports I read literally indicated that as well, like I talked about earlier.

01:17:34.000 So it's like this caste system.

01:17:36.000 I call it, dudes with SCI clearances do not have an embargo on reality.

01:17:42.000 Right?

01:17:42.000 So, it's a caste system of, you know, people in government and outside of government in the industrial complex that run this stuff under little oversight.

01:17:52.000 And, you know, I remember some of the people who denied us access, they were like, you know, I don't know what you're talking about, but if I did, why would you have a need to know?

01:18:01.000 And I'm like, well, why did you have a need to know?

01:18:03.000 You're just some multi-star general.

01:18:07.000 You're a human being.

01:18:08.000 You're a human being.

01:18:09.000 You're not better than me.

01:18:11.000 I mean, who determines the need to know on a humanistic question?

01:18:18.000 It's like basic fact of life.

01:18:20.000 Why are we classifying fact of life at this day and age in 2023?

01:18:25.000 It's insane.

01:18:26.000 And the answer to that would be national security.

01:18:31.000 Yeah, it's obtuse national security, right?

01:18:33.000 So, like, why we classify stuff.

01:18:35.000 It's called Executive Order 13-526, right?

01:18:39.000 Section 1.4, sections E and F are why we classify science stuff, why we classify nuclear stuff.

01:18:47.000 It's like a one-liner.

01:18:48.000 It's very vague.

01:18:49.000 And are you saying this is...

01:18:52.000 These basic facts should be classified?

01:18:55.000 Are you saying that this fits in this bill?

01:18:58.000 And you notice the Schumer Amendment, if anybody reads it, Awkwardly calls out the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, right?

01:19:07.000 And they're basically treating this as nuclear secrets because it gives off nuclear radiation.

01:19:16.000 Because if you look at the ultra-vague definition of special nuclear material, which is Section 51 of the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, it says anything that gives off a sizable amount of atomic energy.

01:19:30.000 Literally, that's what it says.

01:19:32.000 Well, what's sizable and what legal gymnastics are you saying this stuff, which is obviously not a—well, who knows?

01:19:41.000 Maybe it is a nuclear weapon.

01:19:43.000 And you're saying this is a U.S. nuclear secret.

01:19:45.000 You're trans-classifying it into a nuclear secret. 0.99

01:19:49.000 Which I understand maybe at first why they did that.

01:19:54.000 And I'm not admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did many years ago when this was more of an enigma and we wanted to lock it down, figure it out, and then see what we're going to do.

01:20:06.000 But there's never been a disclosure plan.

01:20:08.000 I always ask that to these super senior people I've talked to.

01:20:11.000 Was there a plan?

01:20:13.000 Any kind of plan at all?

01:20:35.000 It's not.

01:20:36.000 I mean, look at the war on terrorism.

01:20:37.000 We left Afghanistan.

01:20:40.000 No general officer.

01:20:41.000 Mattis, Petraeus, McChrystal, I call them the failed generals.

01:20:44.000 People allowed them, but really themselves in the Obama administration, Bush administration, except Trump, whatever.

01:20:52.000 Nobody had a cogent plan for success.

01:20:55.000 And we were fighting people who were...

01:20:59.000 Much less of an adversary than, like, one of our peers or near peers.

01:21:02.000 We couldn't even win that war. 0.98

01:21:04.000 Like, what the fuck are we doing? 0.97

01:21:06.000 But these protracted, endless wars, let's be real, it's good for the industrial complex. 0.98

01:21:11.000 Right.

01:21:12.000 And I'm not, like, admonishing the whole industrial complex, for the record.

01:21:16.000 You know, we need national lethality.

01:21:18.000 We need weapons to kill bad guys because there's evil people in the world.

01:21:22.000 Sure. 0.97

01:21:22.000 But you've got to control... 0.97

01:21:25.000 You know, some of it though.

01:21:27.000 Well, that's a part of the problem with people that have secrets.

01:21:30.000 It's like once you have secrets and a part of your identity is the holder of those secrets and part of the culture of these These industries is that they are the ones that have the access to that.

01:21:45.000 Yeah, and I saw that in conventional really black programs I was a part of in my career.

01:21:51.000 It was almost like you got that secret society vibe where it's like if you're a career government servant, your salary is not that great, but knowledge is your currency.

01:22:03.000 And what makes you special?

01:22:05.000 What rice bowl do you control?

01:22:07.000 And I remember getting read into some stuff that like it was like the president and very limited number of people getting read into and I was one of them because I was operating a certain thing for a certain op.

01:22:18.000 And, oh, you're part of the club, you know, like only 30 people are cleared or whatever and I'm like... 0.99

01:22:25.000 I don't get off on this shit. 0.99

01:22:27.000 It's so weird. 0.99

01:22:28.000 But like these like lifers and I hate to, you know, talk so matter of fact about it.

01:22:33.000 But like it just it's kind of disgusting to me because it's like this like it's weird.

01:22:38.000 It's like a weird like Gnostic cultish thing. 0.62

01:22:41.000 And, you know, I live that community for 14 years of my career.

01:22:46.000 And people really do enjoy having information that other people don't have access to.

01:22:49.000 I was like, I got a secret.

01:22:50.000 And like.

01:22:52.000 That's why I whistleblowed. 0.99

01:22:53.000 Okay, so I know this shit's real. 0.99

01:22:55.000 I know we're not alone. 1.00

01:22:56.000 We have stuff. 0.99

01:22:57.000 No shit. 1.00

01:22:59.000 Am I going to sit on my ass for 30, 40 years? 1.00

01:23:02.000 I'm an old man. 1.00

01:23:03.000 I look back like, oh, I had that secret.

01:23:05.000 I knew about it, but I didn't do anything.

01:23:08.000 So I couldn't just keep that secret because I thought it was...

01:23:14.000 It's just perverse and wrong that the people don't even at least get to know the basics.

01:23:19.000 It's insane.

01:23:20.000 So when it comes to these, I'm going to bring it back to these actual entities.

01:23:25.000 Yeah.

01:23:26.000 Do we know or would you have an understanding of how many of them we're talking about and the variety of them?

01:23:33.000 Yeah, there is a variety and we have a certain number of different things.

01:23:40.000 But the like total numbers of like what's interacting with us on Earth, I mean nobody knows that.

01:23:46.000 But there's an understanding of some that they do believe are interacting with us and there's a variety in terms of – there's variables.

01:23:52.000 Yeah, I talk to people who are familiar with the biological analysis and everything.

01:23:57.000 So we have – Some idea, not a complete picture, because it's like, you know, you're looking at it, it's like, well, I don't even understand the physiology at all.

01:24:09.000 It's like, what the heck?

01:24:09.000 It's like way different, right?

01:24:12.000 Is there a description of this physiology?

01:24:15.000 Yeah, no, I was in the room when...

01:24:19.000 I gotta be careful, I don't want to...

01:24:25.000 I was in Washington, D.C. with a very number of senior people that work for members of Congress, put it that way, when I was still in government.

01:24:36.000 And I brought the people who worked on that stuff.

01:24:40.000 To the Hill.

01:24:41.000 I mean, this is why the members were so confident to put out the Schumer Amendment and stuff.

01:24:47.000 And I was like, please explain.

01:24:50.000 And they went into all those details and stuff.

01:24:53.000 And I remember, you know, some of the professional staff members were like, whoa.

01:24:59.000 Like they were like in G-lock, right? 1.00

01:25:01.000 Because I mean, like a total world bubble got burst right there for a lot of people.

01:25:09.000 And so we have some idea.

01:25:10.000 It's not a complete picture.

01:25:12.000 I mean, it's just like, but you're not even bringing in the right people.

01:25:15.000 Like, I think about my friend and colleague, Dr. Gary Nolan, which I started the Soul Foundation nonprofit with.

01:25:23.000 I mean, he's like...

01:25:25.000 You know, Nobel-level biologist, virologist.

01:25:28.000 Like, he's the guy that you would want on it, but he's not on it.

01:25:32.000 So I think we can make a lot of progress in our understanding, once again, if this is more broadly studied in an open environment.

01:25:42.000 Trevor Burrus Are you aware of the Nixon-Jackie Gleason story?

01:25:46.000 Vaguely, I stayed away from ufology because I had these contemporary people that were inside. 0.97

01:25:53.000 I could check all their credentials, where they worked, etc., But I'm vaguely familiar where, what was it, like Nixon brought Jackie Gleason to some facility and showed him some stuff or something like that?

01:26:06.000 Yeah, supposedly that's the story.

01:26:07.000 And it's very hard to determine the origin of the story or whether or not it's real.

01:26:12.000 There's a story about one article that was supposedly published.

01:26:16.000 Was it Vanity Fair?

01:26:17.000 Something like that, yeah.

01:26:18.000 And you can't find the story.

01:26:22.000 Jackie Gleason, by all accounts, was obsessed with UFOs and even built a home in upstate New York that looked like a flying saucer.

01:26:32.000 Oh, really?

01:26:32.000 Yeah.

01:26:33.000 That's cool.

01:26:34.000 This is the house.

01:26:35.000 He had this house constructed supposedly after he had this meeting with Nixon.

01:26:42.000 So Nixon, supposedly they were drinking... 0.99

01:26:45.000 Jackie Gleason and Nick Nixon are tying one on, and Nixon's like, you want to see some shit? 0.98

01:26:50.000 And they fly to wherever this base is, and he shows them these frozen biological entities and this retrieved vehicle. 0.98

01:27:01.000 And then Jackie Gleason becomes a fanatic, obviously.

01:27:05.000 That's crazy.

01:27:06.000 Yeah.

01:27:07.000 I mean, not crazy, but that's interesting that a president would do that to like an uncleared celebrity friend of his. 0.99

01:27:14.000 Like, oh, let me just show you the most sensitive shit our country has. 0.99

01:27:17.000 I don't know. 0.99

01:27:17.000 It's kind of crazy to me. 0.99

01:27:19.000 People are obsessed with celebrity.

01:27:21.000 You know, there's even world leaders, you know, kings and queens of, you know, they've always been obsessed with famous people.

01:27:29.000 Jackie Gleason at the time was incredibly famous and also beloved, right?

01:27:33.000 Yeah.

01:27:33.000 So this is my pal and I'm drunk.

01:27:38.000 Want to see some shit? 1.00

01:27:39.000 You know, I get it. 1.00

01:27:41.000 I want to hang out with Nixon if that's how he was like, man.

01:27:43.000 Well, I bet he was.

01:27:44.000 The 70s is probably wild.

01:27:45.000 I bet he was like that in a lot of ways.

01:27:47.000 You know, I mean, Hunter S. Thompson famously recalled his, yeah, there's the two of them meeting together, famously recalled sitting in the backseat of a limo with Nixon talking about football. 1.00

01:27:59.000 And he was like, God, if I didn't think he was a piece of shit, I'd actually kind of like him. 0.99

01:28:02.000 Oh, that's funny. 1.00

01:28:03.000 Yeah.

01:28:03.000 We're just talking football.

01:28:05.000 Yeah.

01:28:05.000 You know?

01:28:06.000 Yeah.

01:28:07.000 Look, nobody in that job, nobody as a president is going to be loved by everyone.

01:28:11.000 And I'm sure Nixon has positive qualities.

01:28:13.000 And, you know, if Jackie Gleason liked him, I'm a giant Jackie Gleason fan.

01:28:17.000 It's probably fun to hang out with.

01:28:19.000 Yeah.

01:28:20.000 And if you're drunk and, you know, you're the president...

01:28:23.000 And also, we're talking about the 1970s, right?

01:28:27.000 Yeah.

01:28:27.000 So this is a different world, you know?

01:28:29.000 Like, even if you tell anybody, who the fuck's going to believe you? 0.98

01:28:32.000 You don't have... 0.98

01:28:33.000 You can't get on TikTok.

01:28:34.000 Like, what are you going to do?

01:28:35.000 How are you going to get this information out?

01:28:37.000 Oh, exactly.

01:28:37.000 And that's kind of how, you know, in my personal opinion, you know, how the program was protected, right?

01:28:43.000 Forever.

01:28:43.000 Make it crazy.

01:28:44.000 Right. 1.00

01:28:45.000 So if anybody leaks anything or, you know, has an unauthorized disclosure, people are going to think you're fucking nuts. 1.00

01:28:52.000 Of course. 0.99

01:28:52.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:28:53.000 Yeah.

01:28:54.000 But there are actual reports that we have biological remains.

01:29:04.000 Yes.

01:29:04.000 Oh, yes.

01:29:05.000 Yes.

01:29:05.000 How many?

01:29:07.000 It's up there as well, just like with the retrievals.

01:29:11.000 And they vary.

01:29:11.000 There's different kinds.

01:29:13.000 Do we have an understanding, you don't have to answer where, of where they came from?

01:29:21.000 Nobody I talked to espoused any specific origin to me.

01:29:24.000 We may know that, but I'm not aware of anything, so I don't know.

01:29:29.000 Are there reports of some kind of interaction with these things where they're giving information or discussing the problems of humanity and possible solutions or explaining why they're here?

01:29:46.000 Interactions was a sensitive subject that my...

01:29:55.000 I suppose that there's probably detailed documentation of those interactions that goes into a lot of the stuff you're asking.

01:30:01.000 I truly don't even know the answer to a lot of that.

01:30:04.000 Is there discussions amongst these people that there have been these sort of...

01:30:10.000 There was water cooler talk with some people I talked to on the program.

01:30:15.000 I love water cooler talk.

01:30:16.000 Yeah, they're like, hey, bro, guess what I overheard in some weird meeting, you know?

01:30:19.000 Right.

01:30:20.000 But the problem with that is it's like secondary information.

01:30:24.000 Right. 0.64

01:30:24.000 And I'm so anal retentive. 0.64

01:30:26.000 Unless that person told me I had close, personal, I touched it, whatever.

01:30:31.000 Like, cool, well, you're coming to the Inspector General or I'm going to at least give them your name because that's what you told me.

01:30:37.000 And obviously I did that.

01:30:39.000 So...

01:30:39.000 Those people who physically were there, were on the program, did the thing, I brought to the inspector general.

01:30:47.000 Are there discussions of interactions with live beings?

01:30:53.000 There was some water cooler talk about that kind of thing, but I don't even want to get into it because it's like, there were some details provided to me, but it's secondary, and I don't know if that's the telephone game, and I don't know if it was hyperbolized in any way in the break room,

01:31:12.000 so to speak.

01:31:12.000 So I'm so anal about making sure what I say is accurate, I don't know.

01:31:17.000 Yeah.

01:31:18.000 Do we have an understanding?

01:31:20.000 I mean, if there have been these discussions, do we have an understanding of when they first took place?

01:31:27.000 Yeah, some specific events were mentioned to me and I provided that information in a classified setting.

01:31:33.000 And how far back did they go?

01:31:36.000 Pretty far back.

01:31:37.000 It's pretty weird.

01:31:38.000 Yeah.

01:31:38.000 Well, one of the stories from Roswell that's fascinating to me is that Eisenhower had the wreckage flown to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in two separate jets in case one of them crashed.

01:31:51.000 There has been some public testimony to General DuBose.

01:31:57.000 There were some old-timers that at least did some videos in the 90s.

01:32:04.000 Like, I'm Brigadier General Exxon.

01:32:07.000 Here's what I heard.

01:32:09.000 Whatever.

01:32:10.000 I mean, that's out there in the open source.

01:32:12.000 Yeah.

01:32:12.000 Yeah, and there was always a discussion of Hangar 18, right?

01:32:17.000 Have you ever heard of Hangar 18?

01:32:19.000 There's a lot of hangars.

01:32:20.000 For whatever reason, I think it was maybe a movie.

01:32:23.000 Was there a movie, Hangar 18?

01:32:24.000 Well, you know what's funny?

01:32:25.000 Speaking of senators being denied, there's a video in the late 80s of Senator Barry Goldwater, of Goldwater-Nicholsack famed, right?

01:32:34.000 He was a two-star general in the Air Force Reserve, and literally, this video's on YouTube.

01:32:40.000 It's hard to find, though, but...

01:32:42.000 Jesse Michaels on American Alchemy put together, I think, a short video yesterday, and there's like a section in there where he actually has that Goldwater interview.

01:32:51.000 But General Goldwater's like, yeah, one day I called Curtis LeMay, who's a very famous Air Force general, and was like, General? 0.85

01:32:58.000 I heard that there's this room that you, you know, have UFO material and Barry Goldwater espouses in this interview like, yeah, and LeMay got madder than hell at me and told me never to fucking ask about that again. 0.75

01:33:12.000 I might have added the F word in there just for fun. 0.80

01:33:16.000 But yeah, it's bad.

01:33:18.000 I was in the military too long.

01:33:20.000 My wife tells me to be careful with my language all the time around my niece and nephew.

01:33:25.000 But...

01:33:26.000 But even Barry Goldwater knew that we had UFO material. 1.00

01:33:31.000 He asked General LeMay when he was in the Air Force and General LeMay basically told him to fuck off. 0.97

01:33:36.000 And that is a literal interview you can Google. 0.98

01:33:40.000 So a lot of this, like, people...

01:33:51.000 I'm not the first former government official to confirm that.

01:33:59.000 You have Goldwater and all these other folks.

01:34:02.000 Harry Reid, who made the same disclosure to The New Yorker a month after I talked to him in person.

01:34:08.000 Christopher Mellon.

01:34:08.000 Yeah, Mellon has said stuff.

01:34:10.000 Lou Elizondo said he believes we have material on, I think it was Tucker Carlson a couple years ago.

01:34:19.000 So there's certainly been other officials.

01:34:21.000 Now, I'm just...

01:34:23.000 We're good to go.

01:34:45.000 Presumably, Chuck Schumer's talk to Jake Sullivan and President Biden, and you know who's in the White House right now is John Podesta.

01:34:56.000 He is the green energy czar or something like that in the White House.

01:35:00.000 But John Podesta – shout out to John Podesta in the White House.

01:35:05.000 He has an axe to grind on this issue too because remember he tweeted at the end of Obama's second term, you know, my biggest failure was not to have Obama – John Stossel.

01:35:46.000 About two years ago or so, you can find it online, where Pompeo talks about the JFK file and dismisses it or something about, like, there's no boogeyman here.

01:35:54.000 But then he quickly says, oh, I've seen the UFO file too, and we have bigger problems.

01:36:04.000 But at least the way it was edited, John Stossel didn't even follow up, at least the way the final cut was.

01:36:11.000 I'm like, dude, if I was John Stossel, I'd be like, what do you mean, Mike Pompeo?

01:36:15.000 You've seen the UFO file, and we have bigger problems.

01:36:19.000 And UFO file, the way I interpret that, is a long, existing...

01:36:26.000 File or briefing document or something that he had access to.

01:36:30.000 So I think the former CIA director, Mike Pompeo, should probably clarify what he said two years ago.

01:36:36.000 If anybody interviews him next, ask Mike that question.

01:36:39.000 What did he mean?

01:36:41.000 Yeah, we have bigger problems.

01:36:43.000 Well, we certainly have bigger problems in terms of our current existence, specifically with what you were talking about earlier, the proxy wars and collapse of society as we know it, which it seems to be.

01:36:54.000 Yeah, I mean, I feel for the Ukrainian and the Israeli people.

01:36:58.000 I'm not taking any particular side, but certainly...

01:37:02.000 People forget U.S. aid in these wars.

01:37:05.000 What's the, like, most expensive thing if you've studied phases of conflict?

01:37:09.000 It's the reconstruction costs after the conflict.

01:37:11.000 So are we in it for, like, triple-digit billions, like the war on terror?

01:37:18.000 I mean, certainly the Israeli conflict is a great distraction because, you know, like, Russia is very tight with Iran, right?

01:37:25.000 And personal opinion, you know, this is just my own personal opinion, but I'm sure they...

01:37:31.000 Commiserated and was like, can you start a two-front war because we would like to win in Ukraine?

01:37:35.000 And this will distract the U.S. because Israel is a longtime, you know, Middle East ally.

01:37:42.000 So it's brilliant.

01:37:44.000 It's brilliant.

01:37:45.000 I mean, the virtue signalers on social media have essentially completely forgotten about Ukraine.

01:37:53.000 It's all about Israel and Palestine. 0.93

01:37:56.000 Yeah, you don't even see it.

01:37:57.000 And I understand, you know, what the National Security Council determination was that they've discussed publicly where there's kind of like trying to drain Russia's military capability and...

01:38:10.000 Annexation of Ukrainian territory because they don't want Russia's sphere of influence to further enter that caucus region and stuff.

01:38:19.000 But yeah, it's funny.

01:38:20.000 Like you said, it's like you don't even talk about Ukraine.

01:38:22.000 It's all about Israel now, which is a horrible conflict on both sides.

01:38:27.000 It's unfortunate.

01:38:30.000 Without a doubt.

01:38:31.000 Yeah.

01:38:32.000 It was a very interesting statement, though, that we have bigger problems.

01:38:36.000 So even if we do, this seems to be like a...

01:38:41.000 This is such a human question because it's one of the biggest mysteries.

01:38:47.000 Obviously, you know, there's the Fermi paradox.

01:38:49.000 Where are they, right?

01:38:51.000 And if you look out into the cosmos, if you've ever gone a clear night and you look out and you realize those are all stars and those stars are all surrounded by planets and there's literally hundreds of billions of them.

01:39:03.000 In the Drake equation, you can calculate what probable sentient life is.

01:39:08.000 And I've been an amateur astronomer since I've been a kid, and I've never...

01:39:11.000 Crazy enough, I've never seen anything remarkable.

01:39:16.000 I've seen some stuff that could have been ball lightning and some satellite passes that weren't registered online.

01:39:24.000 You could actually check to see if there's going to be an iridium flare or something like that.

01:39:28.000 Maybe that was a satellite pass, maybe not.

01:39:31.000 But I've never seen in my personal life...

01:39:53.000 I've never seen anything weird.

01:39:56.000 I live in the mountains of Colorado, right?

01:39:58.000 So there is a mountain lion den about 10 miles from my house in Colorado, literally.

01:40:05.000 You know, there are lower predatory sentience.

01:40:08.000 I'm higher predatory sentience.

01:40:10.000 And I'm using this as a device or an analogy for NHI and us.

01:40:16.000 Well, on a day-to-day basis, I don't care what a mountain lion is doing.

01:40:21.000 I may hike in that area to explore.

01:40:25.000 But day to day, I'm afraid of it, and I don't care.

01:40:30.000 And think about what humans might be, unfortunately, to some of these higher sentience, where this monkey has a nuke. 1.00

01:40:37.000 Holy shit! 1.00

01:40:38.000 Keep them in the cage? 1.00

01:40:39.000 We don't want to go anywhere near them.

01:40:41.000 And so people think that there would be some kind of open contact with some higher sentience that is either visiting Earth or from another dimension or whatever the origin is.

01:40:52.000 But they probably don't care.

01:40:55.000 We're probably neutral at best and maybe actually fearful of us in some sense.

01:41:00.000 Or we're the progeny of, you know, personal opinion, progeny of some experiment.

01:41:07.000 And it's almost like living in the Matrix, but it's not like an actual simulation.

01:41:11.000 It's like we want the simulation to go.

01:41:14.000 We don't want to intercede because we want to see what, you know, Homo sapiens sapiens 2.0 is going to do after the Great Flood or something like that, right?

01:41:23.000 Yeah.

01:41:24.000 That's one of the more fascinating ideas is that we're some sort of a product of genetic engineering.

01:41:31.000 I honestly would not be surprised.

01:41:34.000 I don't know that to be true.

01:41:35.000 We're so different than everything else is here.

01:41:38.000 So different.

01:41:39.000 So beyond different.

01:41:40.000 I mean, there's not another primate that is even reasonably close.

01:41:44.000 I mean, there's speculation amongst primatologists and there's not even speculation.

01:41:52.000 They believe that...

01:41:55.000 Chimpanzees, in particular, have entered into the Stone Age.

01:41:58.000 They're at the beginning of the Stone Age.

01:42:00.000 They're using tools.

01:42:02.000 There's obviously some learned behavior.

01:42:04.000 There's some footage of orangutans using spears to hunt fish with.

01:42:10.000 Oh, interesting.

01:42:10.000 Have you ever seen that?

01:42:11.000 No, I've not. 0.99

01:42:12.000 It's cool as shit. 0.99

01:42:13.000 There's an orangutan that's hanging on a branch over a river or a body of water, and he's stabbing at fish. 0.99

01:42:22.000 With spear.

01:42:22.000 Huh.

01:42:23.000 Which is incredible.

01:42:24.000 I mean, they're using tools.

01:42:26.000 I mean, we know they use tools to extract, you know, termites and the like.

01:42:31.000 Look at that.

01:42:32.000 Oh, that's crazy.

01:42:33.000 How crazy is that?

01:42:34.000 I mean, he's clearly hunting.

01:42:36.000 I mean, he's going fishing in Borneo.

01:42:40.000 I mean, that is, you know, at the very least, a distant cousin of us.

01:42:47.000 Some, you know, intelligent primate that is to figure out a way to use tools.

01:42:53.000 How long would it take an orangutan to become A human being.

01:42:57.000 How many millions of years are we talking about of evolution?

01:42:59.000 But it seems to be that process has started.

01:43:02.000 Interesting. 0.84

01:43:02.000 But why are we so fucking different than everyone else? 0.84

01:43:05.000 Yeah, like are we a product of Darwinian evolution or what is it? 0.87

01:43:08.000 Punctuated equilibrium is obviously another theory.

01:43:10.000 And I'm not an anthropologist by any means.

01:43:12.000 You know, I've watched some Netflix episodes.

01:43:15.000 Yeah, me too.

01:43:16.000 A lot of YouTube.

01:43:17.000 But yeah, we seem to be oddly...

01:43:20.000 Advanced.

01:43:21.000 Advanced, and we seem to just possess other skills.

01:43:25.000 I mean, it goes back to, like, the Stargate program, right?

01:43:29.000 You know, with Declassified by Clinton and sensibly canceled, I guess, in 96. You know, where you had people trained in remote viewing and, like...

01:43:38.000 There was feedback loops to confirm what they saw was real, and either satellite imagery or human sources, where they sketched out a room of where there's hostages, and they got a hostage out, and they're like, and this is a real story, actually.

01:43:51.000 And they're like, did you have a source in that room?

01:43:54.000 How do you know where all the corridors were and everything?

01:43:56.000 I was like, no, actually, Pat Price remote viewed you. 1.00

01:44:00.000 And he's like, what the fuck? 0.98

01:44:01.000 So there's something going on there, and that's like Gary Nolan has studied a lot of this stuff. 0.99

01:44:09.000 Very famously, he's pointed out the caudate patanum in the brain, right?

01:44:13.000 It's this horseshoe-shaped thing in the middle of your brain.

01:44:16.000 That if...

01:44:17.000 He's done MRIs and CAT scans.

01:44:19.000 And I hope I'm not butchering his work.

01:44:21.000 Gary might, you know, slap me later.

01:44:23.000 But it lights up.

01:44:26.000 People who have those kind of skills, they have like an overactive caudaipitanum in the brain.

01:44:32.000 And it's like, okay, well, is it a transceiver of some sort?

01:44:35.000 I'm guessing that's the case.

01:44:36.000 Is it an emerging property of human beings as we evolve?

01:44:40.000 Exactly.

01:44:40.000 And we're seeing just a few human beings that have this stuff.

01:44:43.000 And then if it is a transceiver...

01:44:47.000 Where's the information?

01:44:48.000 Is it in a higher spatial dimension?

01:44:50.000 Or how are they extracting?

01:44:52.000 How are they able to basically be non-locality, right?

01:44:58.000 They're able to, like, project themselves somehow, their consciousness, to a—and this is a declassified example from Stargate—a Russian missile base— Sketch the crane and where the silos are, what the status is.

01:45:13.000 You know, satellite comes over, takes a picture, and it's exactly the way they sketched it.

01:45:17.000 How'd they do that?

01:45:19.000 Like, it's certainly real because there is a feedback loop.

01:45:24.000 Now, there's a lot of charlatans in the psychic space and all that, but, like, at least that government program?

01:45:28.000 And I've talked to...

01:45:30.000 You know, Hal Putov and people who actually ran that program at SRI for the CIA, then DIA and the Army.

01:45:37.000 And that seems to be—and men who's staring at goats, right?

01:45:41.000 The George Clooney movies, the famous movie based on the Stargate program, seems to be legit as far as we can measure from a feedback perspective.

01:45:50.000 What was the explanation for the discontinuation of that program?

01:45:54.000 Oh, gosh, I'm not a scholar on that.

01:45:57.000 Something Russell Targ or Hal Putov or one of those guys could explain if it was just I got caught up in the bureaucracy or what.

01:46:07.000 I don't remember.

01:46:08.000 Yeah.

01:46:09.000 Yeah.

01:46:10.000 So the idea of that being an emergent property of human beings as we evolve has always been fascinating to me because there's There's certainly something that goes on with human communication other than we make sounds that represent objects and physical things and that the other person interprets those sounds and understands it.

01:46:32.000 There's communication between human beings that's...

01:46:35.000 Oh, acoustic communication, like the symbol rate, if you will, is really slow.

01:46:40.000 Like, if you were able to consciously communicate, you know, aka, you know, the hokey term like telepathy, right?

01:46:46.000 Yeah.

01:46:47.000 And it's funny because that's what a lot of people espouse that have had alleged contacts, right?

01:46:55.000 A lot of the people that Dr. John Mack at Harvard studied over the years where they felt like they were getting hit with a QR code.

01:47:03.000 It was like instant knowledge or...

01:47:06.000 They heard somebody speaking to them non-verbally in some way that they couldn't even conceptualize through acoustic communication or talk, if you will.

01:47:16.000 And it's the same thing like Book Proof of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander, M.D. I remember reading it when I was in Afghanistan and I was like, this is a crazy experience.

01:47:25.000 This medical doctor has necrotizing fasciitis of the brain.

01:47:29.000 It's a near-death experience.

01:47:31.000 And he gets this like crazy, like the feelings of love, other stuff.

01:47:35.000 It's a really interesting book.

01:47:36.000 It's like a scientific take on a doctor's own near-death experience.

01:47:40.000 But when he came back and somehow the fasciitis didn't eat away his brain and he was cognitively normal, he tried to write down...

01:47:51.000 What information or facts of the universe he learned during his NDE and he couldn't even put it in English.

01:47:58.000 It was like crazy.

01:47:59.000 He didn't know how to translate it into our language.

01:48:03.000 It was just there was no like adjectives if you were adverbs etc that could describe the knowledge that he knew like natively when he had that near-death experience.

01:48:13.000 It's a really fascinating book and he talks about the disease he had and his physiological condition at the time.

01:48:19.000 Really interesting.

01:48:21.000 What was he able to discern from that?

01:48:23.000 What was the overall message?

01:48:27.000 There's the message of love, which is positive, but it was like this interconnectedness.

01:48:32.000 Everybody is kind of connected in a way that they don't really realize.

01:48:41.000 This is getting really trippy.

01:48:44.000 A lot of thoughts with people who are smarter than me.

01:48:46.000 I like to talk to them about this kind of stuff.

01:48:50.000 If you're, say, a higher dimensional sentience, right?

01:48:53.000 The act of creation, so act of creation for 3D beings is having a baby, right?

01:48:58.000 It's producing another three-dimensional object.

01:49:01.000 Well, if you're in five-dimensional space, or even, I guess, four-dimensional physical space, what if act of creation is creating other conscious realities in other universes?

01:49:11.000 And the act of creation...

01:49:22.000 I'll call it universal consciousness or a higher dimensional sentient life force or life form.

01:49:31.000 I know that sounds like really out there, but when you think about it...

01:49:37.000 I think?

01:50:07.000 It's kind of like that.

01:50:08.000 The fact there's a creator and we're literally created in the image of a creator, literally.

01:50:14.000 And that's kind of what life really is.

01:50:17.000 It's like, think about, it's like a weird 3D plus time temporal sensory experience for a higher dimensional sentience.

01:50:25.000 You're here to experience time in this weird linear fashion and to experience yourself divorced from yourself to gain knowledge and to report back.

01:50:38.000 Is maybe what life is.

01:50:39.000 And that's just kind of my own personal theology as a summation of just...

01:50:44.000 During COVID, I was really bored.

01:50:46.000 And that's what I was looking at.

01:50:49.000 Well, I extrapolate that to the creation of AI. And I think if you think about human beings as something that creates things, I think ultimately we create a new life.

01:51:02.000 Exactly.

01:51:03.000 What if higher sentience is creating some kind of artificial intelligence, you know, call it like a commander data from Star Trek Next Gen, right?

01:51:10.000 Not even really, it's made in the image of the creator in some sense, but it's not even, and that's what might get sent into these like long endurance missions.

01:51:21.000 You know, missions.

01:51:22.000 And of course, you know, people are like, well, why would they, you know, come here so far to crash, etc.?

01:51:29.000 Or are they crashing on purpose?

01:51:30.000 Do you know that for a fact?

01:51:32.000 Or are they crashing by accident?

01:51:35.000 And what if they're like von Neumann replicating probes, right?

01:51:40.000 You can Google that.

01:51:41.000 But, you know, what if they're just throwaway – which von Neumann probes are just like throwaway spacecraft.

01:51:46.000 Like, yeah, they're just – We send it out.

01:51:48.000 We don't really care what the mission success is.

01:51:51.000 Or they're seeding us.

01:51:52.000 Or as Jacques Vallée says, it's like, you know, here's the key.

01:51:56.000 Can you unlock the cage?

01:51:58.000 Kind of thing.

01:51:59.000 Right?

01:51:59.000 Yeah.

01:52:00.000 And it seems that it would be a long...

01:52:03.000 I mean, if you think about biological evolution, it's a long, lengthy process.

01:52:08.000 And if ultimately that led us to the creation of a technology that's far superior in terms of its capabilities of understanding and thinking...

01:52:17.000 That seems to be what's happening, and that's one of the reasons why so many people are concerned about it.

01:52:22.000 The term artificial intelligence is a very strange term because it's not artificial.

01:52:27.000 It's intelligence.

01:52:29.000 It's silicon-based instead of carbon-based, right?

01:52:31.000 Yeah.

01:52:31.000 It doesn't have blood and tissue and cells, but it has something that's superior.

01:52:36.000 It also has something that's much more scalable, right?

01:52:39.000 We have a very obvious biological limitation in terms of evolution.

01:52:44.000 If you look at evolution, and we turn back to the orangtans that are fishing, they're obviously learning new things.

01:52:51.000 And those new properties, those new things, we assume will be encoded in their genetics and then passed to their children.

01:52:58.000 Do you have children?

01:52:59.000 No, I have three dogs.

01:53:02.000 I'm a fluffy dad.

01:53:03.000 The problem is dogs don't learn from.

01:53:05.000 Well, they do, but one of the most bizarre things about children is that they have properties that are clearly...

01:53:13.000 It's hard to say, right?

01:53:17.000 Because my children obviously have the example of my wife and myself, and they obviously see...

01:53:24.000 A lot of how we live our life and, you know, discipline and hard work and creativity and all those things.

01:53:31.000 But there's also they seem to have gifts that are they seem to be clearly genetic.

01:53:38.000 Yeah.

01:53:39.000 And artistic gifts that just seem extraordinary that are unusual that I had when I was younger that I was an illustrator.

01:53:46.000 I have a young daughter that's just extraordinarily good at art.

01:53:51.000 Really?

01:53:51.000 Used to illustrate?

01:53:52.000 Yeah.

01:53:53.000 That's what I wanted to do.

01:53:54.000 I wanted to be a comic book illustrator.

01:53:55.000 Oh, interesting.

01:53:56.000 Interesting.

01:53:57.000 But then I have this other daughter that's super gifted athletically.

01:54:02.000 She can learn things really quickly.

01:54:05.000 It's extraordinary.

01:54:06.000 And it's weird.

01:54:07.000 And also this drive that she has.

01:54:10.000 I had a drive from poverty and from a lot of stuff that was wrong with my childhood that seemed to be I had this need to prove myself.

01:54:21.000 She doesn't have any of those problems, but she also has this insane drive. 1.00

01:54:26.000 It's weird.

01:54:28.000 It's a weird discipline.

01:54:29.000 It's extraordinary.

01:54:30.000 That seems to be very different than most kids.

01:54:33.000 And I just think that's an emerging genetic...

01:54:36.000 I think there's something encoded in whatever you are as a human that as you replicate and as you have children, they have that.

01:54:45.000 They have some of that.

01:54:46.000 And I think that is this process, this biological evolutionary process with humans But there's so much chaos. 1.00

01:54:58.000 I mean, you could breed with a dumb person. 1.00

01:55:00.000 You could find a hot, dumb person and have a baby with them. 1.00

01:55:03.000 Now your kid's fucked. 1.00

01:55:04.000 We see that. 1.00

01:55:06.000 Obviously, some people are just born with brains that just don't work that well.

01:55:11.000 I'm sure you've met some dull-minded people, and you try to talk to them about things, and there's no one there.

01:55:16.000 You're right.

01:55:17.000 So, okay, good luck, and good luck with whatever children you have, and what are they going to have?

01:55:23.000 What tools do they have?

01:55:24.000 Yeah, we're genetically encoding artificial intelligence now.

01:55:27.000 I think that's where you were going.

01:55:29.000 Yeah, where I'm going with these biological limitations that we have, it's very clear that we're essentially dealing with a Model T as opposed to a Tesla, which is just insanely superior to these ancient vehicles.

01:55:44.000 We create technology.

01:55:46.000 I've always said this, if you looked at the human race, if you were some sort of an outside observer and you stumbled upon this thing that occupies this planet, this apex predator of this planet, you would say, what is this thing doing?

01:55:58.000 What's making technology?

01:56:00.000 All the other things that it does.

01:56:02.000 It does all these other things, but what do these things generally motivate?

01:56:07.000 What do they move towards?

01:56:09.000 They move towards the advancement of technology and innovation.

01:56:13.000 That is a constant aspect of human beings.

01:56:16.000 If you trace us back to the earliest civilizations, to what we have today, things constantly improve unless something goes horribly wrong.

01:56:24.000 Unless there's some sort of a natural disaster or some sort of a genocide.

01:56:29.000 If something doesn't happen to these creatures, what do they do?

01:56:33.000 They consistently make better things.

01:56:36.000 Well, that, if you extrapolate, if you follow that to its natural progression, well, what is that going to get to?

01:56:42.000 Well, once they've invented computers, and once they've invented devices, and once they've invented things that enhance their personal understanding of the world around them, which we already have now with phones, we already have with the internet, we already have with our ability to communicate with each other, the newest, latest Android phones that are coming out,

01:57:00.000 We'll translate natively on your phone in real time in conversation.

01:57:05.000 So you could be speaking Portuguese to me. 0.98

01:57:07.000 I would hear it in English on a phone call, which is fucking wild. 0.99

01:57:12.000 It's crazy. 0.98

01:57:12.000 That's like Universal Translator in Star Trek. 0.98

01:57:14.000 Literally.

01:57:15.000 Yes.

01:57:15.000 Literally.

01:57:16.000 Well, that is a real thing now.

01:57:18.000 To use Google Translate, it's native to the latest Android operating system.

01:57:25.000 You could – if you just sit down and said, well, where's that going?

01:57:30.000 Well, it's going to something way more sophisticated and way more capable than we are biologically with our limitations.

01:57:38.000 Our monkey bodies – we are the ancestors or the people that – Yeah.

01:58:01.000 Yeah, it's almost like to permanently harbor our consciousness eventually, right?

01:58:04.000 Right.

01:58:05.000 That kind of makes sense.

01:58:06.000 It does make sense.

01:58:07.000 And there's a sort of understanding of that that leads to this fear of our demise that everyone – and Elon has openly discussed this.

01:58:16.000 Sam Altman and I were talking about it.

01:58:19.000 What OpenAI is doing with ChatGPT4 versus ChatGPT5, which is going to be insanely superior.

01:58:27.000 Well, what is ChatGPT15 going to do?

01:58:30.000 Is that going to be the president of the world?

01:58:32.000 Are we going to bypass government and just say, you know, it's obviously like...

01:58:38.000 This administration is incredibly corrupt and flawed and influenced by the military-industrial complex.

01:58:43.000 It's not good for the world.

01:58:44.000 It's not good for the environment.

01:58:46.000 We need something that is far superior that doesn't have all these motivations.

01:58:50.000 What would that be?

01:58:51.000 That would be an artificial intelligent creation that we use to govern life. 0.77

01:58:58.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:58:59.000 I mean, that sounds nuts, but I think that's probably a better solution than humans with all of our fucking flaws and issues and greed and envy and all the things that we have. 0.99

01:59:10.000 That would be a better version of it. 0.98

01:59:12.000 But what are we saying then?

01:59:14.000 Are we saying that we're...

01:59:16.000 Are you programming like empathy into it though?

01:59:19.000 Probably not.

01:59:20.000 Probably not, which is terrifying.

01:59:22.000 But we will become obsolete, or we will merge, and if we merge, it will completely change what we are.

01:59:31.000 And I think that's very likely what's going to take place. 0.77

01:59:35.000 I think the initial stages will be some sort of a merging with technology, and then from that merging, It will essentially realize, well, why are we even fucking around?

01:59:45.000 This new thing is so superior, and it doesn't have all the pitfalls.

01:59:50.000 It doesn't have all the problems.

01:59:51.000 It's not short-sighted.

01:59:52.000 It's not going to drain the ocean of fish so that we can make sushi.

01:59:56.000 It's going to do something that's going to be far more...

02:00:00.000 I'm far more aware of all of the different effects of each individual act and how we affect everything around us and what is net positive and what is net negative and how to avoid all these things.

02:00:14.000 I really firmly believe that we are This biological caterpillar that is making a cocoon to create the electronic butterfly.

02:00:26.000 And we don't even know what we're doing while we're doing it.

02:00:28.000 We're just doing it.

02:00:29.000 And I think materialism is also baked into that.

02:00:32.000 One of the main problems with human beings in terms of like the ridiculousness of our actions.

02:00:36.000 We're so materialistic.

02:00:38.000 People are constantly wanting to get the newest, latest, greatest thing.

02:00:42.000 What's the motivation behind that other than social status?

02:00:44.000 Well, the motivation is that that's what fuels innovation.

02:00:48.000 If we all just stopped right now It said, hey, you know what? 0.98

02:00:53.000 iPhone 15 is pretty fucking dope. 0.96

02:00:55.000 We don't need to make new iPhones. 0.91

02:00:56.000 Let's just keep fixing those and just, like, exist the way we are right now.

02:01:01.000 And let's clean up the air.

02:01:03.000 Let's clean up the ocean.

02:01:04.000 Let's clean up the sea and clean up the rivers and clean up the forests.

02:01:07.000 Like, let's just fix the earth.

02:01:08.000 And then, no, we don't do that.

02:01:10.000 No, I want iPhone 16. You know, when is the iPhone going to be able to communicate completely just with satellites?

02:01:16.000 We don't have to worry about cell phone systems.

02:01:17.000 Well, it's almost like a drug addiction, right?

02:01:18.000 They did studies where people receiving in text messages is the dopamine rush, too.

02:01:22.000 So it's almost like an artificial drug addiction you're fueling because you want more responsive tech, more integrating with your – make it easier so you can get your fix.

02:01:35.000 Yeah.

02:01:36.000 Quicker and more efficiently or something like that.

02:01:38.000 I don't know.

02:01:38.000 Right, and why?

02:01:39.000 I mean, why would fucking staring at a stupid cell phone give you a dopamine rush? 1.00

02:01:44.000 Well, it does. 1.00

02:01:45.000 It does, Adam.

02:01:45.000 It does.

02:01:46.000 Yeah, I'm not a biologist.

02:01:47.000 I don't know why. 1.00

02:01:47.000 And you get addicted to your goddamn phones. 1.00

02:01:50.000 And then why would it be that we would innovate and create things like Instagram and TikTok that are insanely addictive to the point where you look down and you've spent three hours staring at nothing. 1.00

02:02:03.000 Nonsense.

02:02:03.000 Like, what...

02:02:05.000 Why is that?

02:02:05.000 Well, that ensures continual use of this device until it lures you into this ultimate integration.

02:02:12.000 Well, that's right.

02:02:13.000 There's people at Meta, I guess now, or Facebook, you know, where they actually have a whole team of scientists on how to make their apps more addictive, right?

02:02:22.000 Demons.

02:02:23.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:02:24.000 Fucking demons. 1.00

02:02:24.000 Yeah, I don't use social media. 1.00

02:02:25.000 I have never tweeted in my life.

02:02:27.000 Really?

02:02:28.000 That's amazing.

02:02:28.000 I mean, I have like – I used Facebook back in the day when it first came out when I was going to college.

02:02:36.000 Yeah, I don't have Instagram.

02:02:39.000 I've never tweeted in my life.

02:02:40.000 I don't intend to because you don't want to get sucked into that mind virus, which is like people responding to you and you have to feel like you have to respond back.

02:02:49.000 I don't even – I don't even touch it.

02:02:51.000 Well, I'm very aware of those traps, so I don't do that.

02:02:54.000 I used to, but many years ago I stopped interacting with people because I just realized, like, overall it's negative.

02:03:02.000 Like, there's positive aspects to it.

02:03:04.000 It's great for people that like you and they're fans.

02:03:06.000 It's great, too, that you're an actual human, that you interact.

02:03:09.000 Occasionally I'll comment on a post, like, that's really awesome, congratulations, that kind of stuff. 0.97

02:03:13.000 But then I get the fuck out of there. 0.57

02:03:14.000 And I don't read any responses. 0.97

02:03:16.000 And I found that that's the very best way to mitigate all the negative aspects of social media.

02:03:21.000 But then you're also dealing with algorithms.

02:03:24.000 You're dealing with things that recognize what makes you more likely to engage.

02:03:29.000 And so those things are constantly showing you the things that you engage.

02:03:33.000 And, you know, it's not necessarily even positive.

02:03:35.000 It's just whatever you engage with.

02:03:38.000 It's what's coming your way.

02:03:39.000 Whether it could be cool stuff.

02:03:40.000 Like, maybe you're just, like, really into muscle cars and it shows you a lot of muscle cars.

02:03:44.000 Or it could be, like, murder.

02:03:46.000 Like, I see a lot of murder on Instagram. 1.00

02:03:48.000 It's fucking crazy. 0.97

02:03:50.000 Yeah, I'm a car guy, so, like, my feed is, like... 0.96

02:03:53.000 Oh, do you ever think about this mod for your Ford Bronco?

02:03:56.000 Ooh, those lights look nice. 0.99

02:03:57.000 I'm going to wire that shit up next week. 0.99

02:03:59.000 Yeah, I get those too, yeah. 0.99

02:04:00.000 It's bad.

02:04:01.000 Yeah, I have a problem with that.

02:04:02.000 I have a car problem.

02:04:03.000 Yeah, my wife doesn't allow me to have the good stuff anymore, so I have to, you know.

02:04:08.000 Keep it under a certain price.

02:04:10.000 That's good.

02:04:11.000 I'm more actually interested in old stuff than I am in new stuff.

02:04:15.000 You like rat rod stuff, right?

02:04:17.000 Well, I like muscle cars.

02:04:18.000 Very specifically, 1960s muscle cars.

02:04:21.000 Those are my favorite because what they are to me is...

02:04:24.000 It's a toy that you could drive.

02:04:26.000 Yeah.

02:04:27.000 It's like a ride that gives me immense pleasure to just drive around in.

02:04:31.000 It's really fun.

02:04:32.000 I don't even have to go fast.

02:04:33.000 It's just going around in a 1970 Chevelle, just driving it.

02:04:39.000 It's hard to describe for someone who has never experienced it, but it's just so engaging, and it's like you're on this drug.

02:04:48.000 Yeah.

02:04:48.000 It's like...

02:04:51.000 It's like everything, you feel all of it, and you're engaging all of these senses.

02:04:57.000 Yeah, very tactile, very mechanical.

02:04:59.000 Yeah, I totally understand that.

02:05:01.000 I mean, the only kind of old cars I like are like black Lincoln Continental, Suicide Doors from The Matrix.

02:05:07.000 I remember seeing that when I was a teen when The Matrix came out.

02:05:10.000 I'm like, that car's badass.

02:05:11.000 I want to have whatever Morpheus drove.

02:05:15.000 They're art.

02:05:15.000 They're essentially art.

02:05:16.000 It's functional art.

02:05:19.000 It's a piece of art that you could actually drive around in.

02:05:23.000 And it gives you this very bizarre sensation.

02:05:27.000 But the point is, that's not most people.

02:05:30.000 Most people want the newest, latest, greatest thing.

02:05:33.000 And there's a motivation to get the newest, latest, greatest thing that I think If you just follow that up to its logical conclusion, it's going to create life.

02:05:45.000 How many films have been made about this?

02:05:48.000 Ex Machina and all these different films.

02:05:52.000 That's what we're going to do.

02:05:55.000 There's no way we're not going to do that. 0.99

02:05:58.000 If I had to bet on one thing, If the human race doesn't get wiped out by a meteor or a nuclear war, we're going to fucking do that. 0.97

02:06:05.000 We're going to make a life form. 0.98

02:06:08.000 100%.

02:06:08.000 And it's going to be almost instantaneously able to figure out all the flaws in its own personal programming and make a much better version of itself.

02:06:16.000 If it's sentient.

02:06:18.000 If it has the ability to make decisions.

02:06:19.000 Well, I think we're close.

02:06:20.000 I mean, I think I saw some stuff.

02:06:21.000 There's like a open AI fiasco going on right now.

02:06:24.000 And there's rumor that they might have cracked artificial general intelligence, right?

02:06:28.000 AGI. And that's frightening.

02:06:31.000 I mean, it was like, was it Sam Altman?

02:06:33.000 I think we're talking about.

02:06:34.000 I think there's like the board of open AI. There's some shuffle.

02:06:37.000 I was just reading when I woke up this morning.

02:06:39.000 Well, they removed him. 0.99

02:06:41.000 But then apparently the shareholders like, what the fuck are you doing? 0.97

02:06:45.000 And there was so much outrage that they're trying to bring him back. 0.99

02:06:48.000 Like, instantly.

02:06:49.000 But Elon had a very good point.

02:06:51.000 Like, what was the motivation behind that?

02:06:54.000 And when you think about the implications for humanity as a whole, because this is such an emerging technology that's so overwhelmingly powerful, what happened?

02:07:05.000 Like, what's going on?

02:07:06.000 Like, I think this is one of those things where, like, we need to know, like, what was the motivation behind your decision?

02:07:11.000 And if it was that he was holding back information about the actual creation of artificial general intelligence, that it's already happened, and that he's, like, hesitant.

02:07:23.000 Because he's a little cagey in how he talks about stuff.

02:07:27.000 When I was talking to him, you could tell he kind of knows that he is at the forefront of this technology that, worst case scenario, replaces us.

02:07:42.000 Yeah, and going back to, is it programmed with any kind of empathy, etc., depending on if it handles critical?

02:07:49.000 I guess the thing I saw in the government, because I did a lot of cyber stuff in my career, is as AI gets more advanced, you create, say, offensive cyber tools that literally have a mind of their own,

02:08:05.000 and if, say, theoretically you release that on some target, Right.

02:08:35.000 Right.

02:08:55.000 I think?

02:09:07.000 Potentially no attribution or can confuse the attribution such that you don't even know who to go to war with.

02:09:13.000 It's really scary to me.

02:09:15.000 It is scary.

02:09:15.000 Yeah.

02:09:16.000 That's just my own- It's already happening with social media.

02:09:19.000 Yeah.

02:09:19.000 I mean, think about how many troll farms there are on social media that are just stirring up discontent.

02:09:25.000 I mean, it's an active program that we know that Russia uses that is trying to undermine democracy and try to keep people fighting with each other. 0.72

02:09:33.000 Mm-hmm.

02:09:34.000 And it's been very effective. 0.99

02:09:35.000 And if you look at social media, it's just fucking chaos. 0.98

02:09:37.000 It's just people yelling at you, particularly Twitter or X, you know, and Facebook. 0.97

02:09:42.000 It's like a lot of what's going on.

02:09:44.000 One of the studies showed that out of the top 20 Christian sites that are on Facebook, 19 of them are run by Russian troll farms.

02:09:52.000 So if we know that on a relatively rudimentary scale, if you look at the impact of social media versus the impact of artificial intelligence, they're already doing that.

02:10:06.000 They're already hiding who's responsible and what's the goal and how to manipulate consciousness and how to manipulate influence and how people think about things and what the public opinion on things are.

02:10:18.000 It's already very effective.

02:10:21.000 You would imagine that a creation of artificial intelligence would radically accelerate that.

02:10:27.000 Oh, 100%. 0.94

02:10:28.000 I remember the deepfake stuff was a real problem for my old community because we're like, holy shit, you could really fake some stuff. 0.53

02:10:36.000 And you've got to develop algorithms to make sure you can analyze, oh, hey, that is fake. 0.65

02:10:41.000 Because you've seen some of the deepfakes where it's like Obama or Arnold Schwarzenegger.

02:10:45.000 Yes.

02:10:45.000 The Tom Cruise guy.

02:10:47.000 Holy shit. 1.00

02:10:48.000 Holy shit. 1.00

02:10:49.000 That is crazy. 1.00

02:10:50.000 Crazy.

02:10:50.000 Like, you're going to be able to bring actors from the dead back at this point.

02:10:53.000 You're going to have, like, Cary Grant, you know, doing a musical or whatever, you know, or whatever, you know.

02:10:58.000 Well, Bruce Willis, who has some sort of degenerative neurological condition, sold his likeness.

02:11:06.000 For the ability to make commercials and all sorts of other things.

02:11:10.000 Like, he's essentially saying he's fading, unfortunately, and now he will give this thing, which is this property, which is Bruce Willis, this famous person, and they will be able to create versions of him starring in films.

02:11:27.000 Oh, and certainly if you train an AI model just like ChatGPT, you could actually get almost like what they would normally say, their knowledge.

02:11:35.000 Yes, 100%.

02:11:35.000 And it's almost like having a permanent historian, too.

02:11:39.000 If you want to talk to Clint Eastwood about his films in the 60s after Clint Eastwood passes, may he live forever, but that would be crazy.

02:11:49.000 It'd be really interesting.

02:11:50.000 I mean, he might actually be able to give you advice.

02:11:52.000 He might be your personal advisor.

02:11:53.000 I know.

02:11:54.000 That'd be cool.

02:11:54.000 I mean, that's probably one of the things that's going to come out of this, but When we think about empathy, we also think about just human beings and the way we communicate and interact with each other.

02:12:07.000 Empathy is very important, and also compassion and forgiveness.

02:12:11.000 All these things are very important qualities because we recognize that we're very flawed.

02:12:15.000 But when you create something that is not flawed, Yeah, then the need for empathy the need for all these things that we attach to human emotions and human reward systems They will don't no longer be a significant issue because you're going to be dealing with something that operates on a higher plane It might be the answer to all that ails us which is so terrifying for us Because we recognize that what we derive,

02:12:40.000 the joy that we derive from love, from companionship, from friendship, from community, it's like a key component to life on Earth for us.

02:12:50.000 But it's also because we recognize that without that, we are the Mongols.

02:12:55.000 Without that, we're Nazi Germany.

02:12:57.000 Without that, you know, we're Hamas. 0.99

02:12:59.000 We're whatever the fuck we are that we recognize as being, like, Evil or dangerous or horrible about humans. 0.98

02:13:06.000 When we think about the worst case scenario for human beings, we always think about things like the Holocaust. 0.99

02:13:12.000 We think about what is the worst acts that human beings are capable of with our current programming and our biological flaws.

02:13:21.000 Like, what are the worst things we could do?

02:13:22.000 Terrible, awful things.

02:13:24.000 Well, if we don't have those problems, if we no longer have envy, we no longer have greed, we no longer have evil, We don't have any of those properties.

02:13:34.000 They don't exist anymore.

02:13:35.000 We just have this new form of consciousness that's far superior.

02:13:41.000 Trevor Burrus That's an interesting parallel because you have – you're no longer maybe apex sentience if you have artificial intelligence governing certain things.

02:13:51.000 And I think that's also kind of this – Psychological issue with this UAP issue where we might not be the apex predator.

02:14:00.000 We may be that mountain lion.

02:14:02.000 And we're going to have to be comfortable knowing that we're going to be vulnerable.

02:14:09.000 There's people far superior that may have malevolent intentions.

02:14:13.000 Maybe not.

02:14:13.000 I don't know.

02:14:15.000 And...

02:14:17.000 We're good to go.

02:14:26.000 I would imagine one of the deliberations they must have done years ago were like, oh, we can't disclose because, you know, people are not going to feel comfortable in that world view.

02:14:36.000 Right.

02:14:37.000 100%.

02:14:37.000 And they're not.

02:14:38.000 And then I wonder if these things that we're experiencing are the natural progression of what happens when you do seed life on planet or you do accelerate biological life, you do have some sort of a genetic intervention Where you take this thing that has emerging intelligence and you accelerate it and that that thing will in turn with all of its desire for innovation and creativity and also all of its desire to control resources

02:15:08.000 and have power and have influence that it will eventually lead to the creation of what we're seeing.

02:15:18.000 That these things are the next stage of this process and that maybe we're dealing with one form of that next stage, but there's another stage that's a million years more advanced than that that's far superior that doesn't even have a biological limitation in terms of physical space.

02:15:36.000 Mm-hmm.

02:15:55.000 When there's a crash or when there's a body or when there's a this and that, and people say, well, if they're so advanced, why are they crashing?

02:16:03.000 Well, hold on.

02:16:05.000 Which version are we looking at?

02:16:07.000 We're not saying there's one thing that's visiting us.

02:16:10.000 If there's one thing that's visiting us and we know where this one thing is, we could say, oh, well, that thing...

02:16:15.000 It deals with a completely different solar system that's not as vulnerable.

02:16:18.000 It doesn't have asteroid clouds.

02:16:19.000 It doesn't have all these different things where it's like it doesn't have a planet that has super volcanoes.

02:16:24.000 Maybe life evolved in a more stable environment and it allowed it to get to a far greater technological level, but not the ultimate.

02:16:34.000 Yeah, we might be testing the extent of their adaptability.

02:16:37.000 And like I said, are they crashing by accident?

02:16:40.000 Right.

02:16:40.000 Mission failure or on purpose?

02:16:43.000 Right.

02:16:44.000 So, and then of course with the far distances and everything, I mean, if they're traveling here through some kind of space-time metric engineering construct, you know, the distances are not as vast as you think, right?

02:16:56.000 Right.

02:16:57.000 They could be going through some kind of, you know, traversable wormhole or something like that where it's like a walk down the street for them.

02:17:02.000 It's not, you know, a thousand light years.

02:17:04.000 Well, just think about communication.

02:17:06.000 Just our, communication used to be you had to get in front of someone.

02:17:10.000 And you had to talk to them.

02:17:11.000 So you had to know their language.

02:17:12.000 You had to either nonverbal or verbal communication.

02:17:15.000 You had to figure out a way to say things to them.

02:17:18.000 That's no longer the case.

02:17:19.000 Obviously with this new Android operating system, it translates. 0.84

02:17:23.000 But also the fact that you could have a fucking FaceTime call with someone in Japan right now and you instantaneously can communicate back and forth, which is insane. 1.00

02:17:34.000 That's a vast distance, but for us it's like stupid. 1.00

02:17:36.000 It's like, Yeah. 1.00

02:17:37.000 Easy.

02:17:37.000 Vast distance and instantaneous.

02:17:40.000 Yeah.

02:17:40.000 I mean, I was just in Scotland and I was FaceTiming my daughter back home.

02:17:45.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:17:46.000 Fucking crazy. 1.00

02:17:47.000 You're nine hours by plane and you're having instantaneous communication, which is wild shit. 1.00

02:17:53.000 But that's just... 1.00

02:17:55.000 That's fucking... 1.00

02:17:57.000 That's like Pong. 1.00

02:18:00.000 That's Morse code.

02:18:03.000 It's very primitive in terms of what if you physically can be in these places instantaneous?

02:18:09.000 And why would we assume that that's not eventually going to be on the menu?

02:18:13.000 Yeah, it's just like the conventional propulsion stuff.

02:18:17.000 We're not using an Elon Musk starship to get here.

02:18:20.000 They're doing something else.

02:18:21.000 You talked to someone from the 1800s and you said, you're going to go to Nevada?

02:18:25.000 Jesus Christ.

02:18:25.000 You know how far that is on a wagon?

02:18:28.000 That's months, man!

02:18:29.000 But no, you fly to Vegas, it's two hours. 0.99

02:18:31.000 It's fucking easy. 0.56

02:18:33.000 We know that now, so why would we assume that there's a limitation to that advancement? 0.97

02:18:40.000 I don't think there is.

02:18:41.000 Yeah, and of course, a friend of mine, Eric Weinstein, certainly...

02:18:46.000 We don't even have the right theoretical frameworks right now.

02:18:49.000 He has his own geometric unity theory, and he's way smarter than I am.

02:18:54.000 He's too smart.

02:18:55.000 He's confusing.

02:18:57.000 He starts talking to you like, slow down.

02:18:59.000 If he calls me, I'm like, you've got to call me in the morning after my 24-ounce Monster Energy drink, or I can't even keep up, man.

02:19:08.000 He's on another level.

02:19:09.000 He's got some unique theories himself about where all this stuff is coming from.

02:19:14.000 And it's all very, very, very interesting and intriguing, but also makes sense.

02:19:21.000 All of it makes sense, including being visited.

02:19:24.000 You know, I had this conversation with Neil deGrasse Tyson, like, why would they be interested in us? 0.99

02:19:27.000 I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? 0.93

02:19:29.000 We're super interested, yeah. 0.99

02:19:31.000 Neil, I mean, obviously he's a fine science communicator, kind of the successor of kind of the...

02:19:38.000 Carl Sagan kind of thing.

02:19:39.000 I think Carl Sagan was a little bit more open-minded.

02:19:41.000 Yeah.

02:19:41.000 I like Carl better by that.

02:19:43.000 I'm more of a fan.

02:19:44.000 I wish he was still alive.

02:19:46.000 I love to smoke weed with that guy.

02:19:47.000 He's really into weed.

02:19:48.000 Oh, really?

02:19:49.000 Yeah, really, really into it.

02:19:50.000 I remember my aunt gave me Cosmos by Carl Sagan when I was in middle school.

02:19:55.000 And that book was from the 80s.

02:19:56.000 But that book tripped me out.

02:19:58.000 And I was like, I want to study science.

02:20:00.000 And I read, it was Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking.

02:20:04.000 And I read those two books when I was like in eighth grade.

02:20:07.000 And I was like, This is trippy.

02:20:09.000 I want to study astronomy.

02:20:10.000 This is insane.

02:20:11.000 But I ultimately use kind of my technical background to be a spook for the government.

02:20:16.000 But I still observe.

02:20:19.000 I have a big telescope and I live like super dark skies in Colorado.

02:20:23.000 I still have that boyhood fascination of the cosmos.

02:20:26.000 Now, ironically, I found out something else that kind of confirms that the cosmos is...

02:20:33.000 Not lifeless and God paints with a broad brush as the Vatican has espoused a couple years ago when they said this is okay with their theology.

02:20:41.000 I have a theory that the universe itself is God.

02:20:45.000 That's like what I was talking about with the – Multidimensional creator creating universes, yeah.

02:20:51.000 I think we have a very limited idea of when we say God, when God created the heavens and they're like, right, right, but what are we saying?

02:20:59.000 I think it's the universe itself.

02:21:01.000 I think it's one thing.

02:21:03.000 And that this one thing, it seeks to create these things that continually push the envelope and may be gods themselves eventually.

02:21:14.000 I think if you extrapolate from our ability versus the ability of an amoeba and you continue to move that along...

02:21:22.000 What does that do?

02:21:23.000 Well, it's going to be able to create universes.

02:21:25.000 There's already been theoretical papers that have been written about the creation of other things like black holes, other things like a universe.

02:21:36.000 What is involved in the creation of a universe?

02:21:39.000 What is involved in the Big Bang?

02:21:41.000 Can that be replicated?

02:21:42.000 Well, not now, but if AI becomes sentient and AI Eventually makes far greater versions of itself.

02:21:52.000 If it keeps doing that, like, what are the limits of its potential?

02:21:57.000 Creates the matrix.

02:21:58.000 Literally.

02:21:59.000 Literally creates a simulated environment.

02:22:03.000 Indiscernible.

02:22:04.000 You can't tell the difference between that and regular life.

02:22:07.000 Well, maybe because there is no difference.

02:22:08.000 Maybe that is what, I mean, that's the theory of simulation theater.

02:22:13.000 Yeah, simulation theory, yeah, familiar.

02:22:15.000 And that is a possibility because the universe seems like a little too perfect.

02:22:21.000 It's a little strange, very created to me.

02:22:24.000 So just like we're in the Goldilocks zone, perfect temperature, like it's just real weird.

02:22:30.000 How about the Big Bang itself?

02:22:32.000 What?

02:22:32.000 What happened?

02:22:33.000 Something smaller than the head of a pin for no known reason becomes everything.

02:22:40.000 Yeah.

02:22:40.000 Okay.

02:22:41.000 And what's the universe expanding into?

02:22:43.000 Right.

02:22:44.000 It's like a quantum foam or whatever the heck the latest theory is that's like beyond me.

02:22:48.000 And then it perhaps just retracts back down to that infinitely small thing and then expands again.

02:22:55.000 Yeah.

02:22:55.000 And that this is an endless cycle and that we're just so limited because of our biological limitations.

02:23:00.000 Our life and death is such a small little tiny blip.

02:23:05.000 Yeah.

02:23:05.000 It's so minuscule in terms of just the overall known life of the universe.

02:23:11.000 And then you have the James Webb Telescope that's, you know, there's people that question the actual length of time that occurred between the Big Bang and now, that maybe it might be far longer.

02:23:22.000 And there's people like Brian Keating that say that's not correct.

02:23:25.000 It's just a...

02:23:26.000 A lack of understanding of what we understand currently about the creation of galaxies.

02:23:31.000 Yeah, because I mean obviously the length of the age of the universe keeps on getting older and older and a lot of that's because of the Doppler shift, right?

02:23:39.000 The red shift as the galaxies are accelerating away.

02:23:44.000 We can calculate what their origin point probably was and how long it took for them to speed up like that, right?

02:23:50.000 And only based on our current understanding, which is obviously at least fairly limited in terms of what its potential is.

02:23:58.000 Well, yeah, like, we still don't quite understand the origin of the moon.

02:24:01.000 The moon is at the right location that causes solar and lunar eclipses.

02:24:06.000 It's, like, the right apparent size to block out the sun.

02:24:10.000 It's, like, super weird.

02:24:11.000 Same thing with, like, Mars.

02:24:12.000 We're not sure, like, what happened there, where Mars...

02:24:16.000 Had some probable life on it.

02:24:18.000 Either a proto-planet hit it or there was some kind of impact that vaporized stuff and like, who knows?

02:24:25.000 Yeah, who knows?

02:24:26.000 And this is just this little tiny neighborhood that we're looking at.

02:24:30.000 It's like we are in our backyard looking for evidence of like life in Africa. 0.98

02:24:36.000 You're not going to figure it out here.

02:24:40.000 We're just looking at such a small scale in terms of what we could potentially discover or potentially observe.

02:24:48.000 I often wonder when we're seeing, especially with the idea of UAPs, UFO crafts, if we're seeing a version of what we will become or something like us becomes if given enough time.

02:25:03.000 I mean, there's like Dr. Mike Masters at Montana State.

02:25:07.000 He literally postulates, you know, he says time travelers, we could debate time travel, but like he thinks it might be like an advanced form of Homo sapien is what we're seeing coming back.

02:25:18.000 Yeah.

02:25:19.000 Like a breakaway civilization and we're coming back to see an older version of ourself that was left on Earth or something like that.

02:25:24.000 Well, the way we would visit like North Sentinel Island and visit those people that are trapped on that island that are uncontacted.

02:25:31.000 Yeah.

02:25:32.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:25:33.000 And then a lot of, you know, there's also like cargo cult religions and stuff, you know, the South Pacific in World War II, they worshipped the P-51 and stuff like they thought those were UFOs, but really they were just us, you know?

02:25:46.000 Yeah.

02:25:46.000 But we were probably alien to them.

02:25:49.000 Oh, 100%.

02:25:49.000 I mean, just look at how Cortez looked to the people that, you know, had no idea that people could ride horses.

02:25:56.000 Like, what the fuck is going on? 0.99

02:25:58.000 These guys are riding horses? 1.00

02:25:59.000 These are gods. 0.99

02:26:01.000 These white guys coming in, what the heck? 0.99

02:26:03.000 They come on a ship in the ocean and they ride horses? 0.99

02:26:06.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:26:09.000 It's all based on our limited understanding.

02:26:11.000 And for someone, whether it's the federal government or whether it's military contractors, for someone to have key elements that could give us a better understanding of this whole picture, It's really inexcusable to not relay that to all of humanity.

02:26:33.000 This is too much information to be secret.

02:26:37.000 It's too important.

02:26:38.000 If it is real, it's too important for someone to have access to just because they have power and money and influence.

02:26:47.000 It seems insane.

02:26:49.000 I mean, that's the whole primer for what I did.

02:26:54.000 I think I'm a pretty more unethical person.

02:26:56.000 I just could not live with myself if I didn't try to make a difference, even though it was very uncomfortable, personal privacy, and professional and personal health was at risk.

02:27:07.000 It also seems like the public understanding and appreciation of these things, particularly after the 2017 article in the New York Times, has changed.

02:27:15.000 There's been a shift.

02:27:16.000 Whereas before, if you would talk about UFOs or the idea of extraterrestrial life, you are automatically lumped into this group of people that believes in Bigfoot.

02:27:25.000 It's like you're in the Loch Ness Monster.

02:27:28.000 You're kind of a loon who likes fringe things because you've probably got problems in your own life you're not addressing, and so you're distracted. 0.58

02:27:34.000 It's like a gambler or something like that. 0.94

02:27:36.000 You're just distracting yourself with this craziness in order to ignore the reality of existence itself, which is so complicated and difficult to manage.

02:27:45.000 And then I think that if we had a better understanding of the overall scale of the potential of life in the universe based on what we know, like physical evidence, undeniable physical evidence that shows us that we're not alone,

02:28:01.000 that would be a massive change in just the overall shift of consciousness on Earth.

02:28:10.000 If we could understand that These territorial disputes that we have, which are almost always over resources or over land or over religions and ideologies, if we could understand that these are nonsense in the vast scope of the universe itself.

02:28:29.000 What is that effect that the people that get into the space station have and astronauts?

02:28:35.000 Oh, the overview effect, yes.

02:28:38.000 William Shatner had that when he went up in the Blue Origin thing.

02:28:42.000 Yeah, I'm sure.

02:28:42.000 I'm sure everybody has it.

02:28:43.000 I mean, I'm sure it's just like, you go like, oh my god, like, what are we doing?

02:28:48.000 And that's how I felt.

02:28:49.000 I mean, like, after I found all this stuff, I could have continued my career, you know, made lieutenant colonel here this winter, made senior executive service in a year or two, did national security stuff.

02:28:59.000 But I'm, like, sitting in my office, and I'm like, there's better things for me to care about than Russian troop movements.

02:29:08.000 Like...

02:29:08.000 We're not alone.

02:29:10.000 This is insane.

02:29:11.000 Like I have to like blow the whistle on this.

02:29:14.000 This is insane because certainly the people we talk to are not lying.

02:29:18.000 And the documents I meticulously went through, they were not forgeries.

02:29:23.000 They were not deception material.

02:29:24.000 So it's just like I have to do something.

02:29:26.000 Trevor Burrus I'm sure you've seen those Freedom of Information Act disclosure papers from the CIA from – God, it was like the 1950s.

02:29:35.000 Where they're detailing all the various forms of life that we know currently exist.

02:29:43.000 You remember that, Jamie?

02:29:45.000 We pulled up that document.

02:29:46.000 Do you think you can find it?

02:29:48.000 Jamie will find it.

02:29:49.000 But it's like 1950-something where they were discussing these things.

02:29:53.000 Interesting.

02:29:53.000 Yeah, I'm not sure which ones you're talking about.

02:29:55.000 I'd have to see them.

02:29:56.000 It's pretty weird stuff because, like, if they knew about this in the 1950s, like, how did they know?

02:30:01.000 Well, there was, like, CIA docs about consciousness and, like, weird remote viewing stuff.

02:30:06.000 I mean, besides the Stargate program that were released in the FOIA reading room on CIA's website, too, that are pretty trippy.

02:30:13.000 We're like, wow, CIA is looking into some really interesting stuff.

02:30:17.000 I mean, they're a hardcore intel agency.

02:30:20.000 What's going on there? 0.99

02:30:21.000 But it makes sense that they would kind of have to find out if that's bullshit or not. 0.97

02:30:25.000 Like, you can't ignore that if you're really doing your job. 0.98

02:30:28.000 If your job is intelligence, like, okay, like, let's look at this.

02:30:32.000 Or it's an aspect of the phenomenon because it's like a reach out from the crash retrieval program.

02:30:37.000 Like, hey, I need you to look into some weird stuff because it might be the key unlock for something that we got in a warehouse, you know?

02:30:44.000 Yeah.

02:30:44.000 Whoa.

02:30:45.000 Yeah.

02:30:46.000 Yeah.

02:30:48.000 As it stands right now, what's the future for this stuff?

02:30:52.000 What's the future for these disclosures and what are the bottlenecks?

02:30:57.000 Well, I mean, certainly from the governmental process, as long as the House doesn't kill the Schumer Amendment, and that's why I'm discussing it here with you, because if they don't pass it, it's going to be the greatest setback to humankind in U.S. history, literally.

02:31:13.000 So the presidential panel gets impaneled about 90 days or so after the passage of the bill.

02:31:20.000 So by Christmas, as long as it doesn't get killed, will be in the National Defense Authorization Act.

02:31:28.000 Panel will be formed, say, February, March.

02:31:33.000 Then they have a 300-day process to develop an initial plan for the president.

02:31:38.000 And I don't know if Chuck Schumer and his staff are being kind of...

02:31:43.000 It's crafty or whatever, but the 300 days, if you actually do it out, it's like the election. 0.95

02:31:48.000 So I don't know if they want to make it an election issue, which certainly if this act doesn't pass, I think it needs to be an election issue because the senior executive needs to rule on this if Congress can't get their shit together, to be quite honest.

02:32:01.000 And we have a plan out to 2030 where this stuff starts getting rolled out.

02:32:06.000 Knock on wood.

02:32:07.000 Perfect storm.

02:32:08.000 Things could get delayed.

02:32:10.000 But then in parallel, and that's kind of why I helped found the Soul Foundation with Gary Nolan and Dr. Peter Scafish, who's an anthropologist as well, is we wanted to figure out the STEM outreach.

02:32:23.000 We wanted to figure out the public policy, national policy to advise the U.S. and its allies on this issue.

02:32:29.000 And we're happy...

02:32:31.000 Like I said, I'm not here to slap the government in its entirety and admonish everybody.

02:32:36.000 I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process, but I think our foundation, we want to be like, okay, well, bring us in as a think tank if, based on my experience and experience of my colleagues, you have an issue with X? Well, let's figure out how to...

02:32:50.000 Rule this out.

02:32:51.000 And how to, you know, incentivize the National Science Foundation to look in this.

02:32:56.000 Make this like, you know, it's dual use, right?

02:32:58.000 You might develop a unique scientific process that actually works well with nanobiology or something like that, but also has dual use with UAP. So there's parallel tracks.

02:33:13.000 I mean, there's public discovery.

02:33:14.000 There's like the Galileo Project with Avi Loeb, right, that they're trying to I mean, obviously, the government knows a lot about that, but we don't want to obviously rely on the U.S. government to do all the work for us and also to be honest.

02:33:32.000 So I think having a parallel track and, you know, Galileo Project, Soul Foundation, Ryan Graves has his own foundation as well for pilots and people who've seen, you know, Yeah.

02:33:47.000 Yeah.

02:33:58.000 Yeah.

02:34:07.000 Yeah, let's do it.

02:34:08.000 Or what if one of our adversaries decides to disclose and they become the messiah figure on this and we lose sovereignty or national supremacy in that regard from an open and honest civil society perspective.

02:34:23.000 But I think the governments, we're getting close, I think.

02:34:27.000 We're certainly closer than we've ever been before.

02:34:30.000 Just the fact that they brought you in to have these conversations.

02:34:33.000 Yeah.

02:34:35.000 Yeah, no, I'm still advising the U.S. government on this, and I'm trying to carefully message this, put all the broad things on the table, and I'm not trying to be coy, I'm not trying to conceal anything, but it's like there's real national security and collateral damage with just releasing this willy-nilly.

02:34:55.000 I'm just trying to get the government to get a plan together here and just be open and honest with the people of the world, really.

02:35:01.000 So...

02:35:02.000 And there's still the bottleneck with these military contractors that allegedly have access to these things.

02:35:08.000 Yeah, and to those guys, and I know some of them, and the individuals that hold the keys, this is a boon.

02:35:16.000 Don't look at it like you're going to lose money.

02:35:19.000 This is a recruiting opportunity.

02:35:22.000 Yes, you're going to have to let other people in the cookie jar.

02:35:26.000 That's how a fair and free society works, and they should be able to compete for work.

02:35:30.000 Because that was one of the main – I talked to some individuals that were in an informal session for a previous administration on should we disclose or not for a former president and really insightful what they told me.

02:35:42.000 And one of the biggest impasses to disclosure wasn't the ontological shock from a socioeconomic or theological perspective.

02:35:49.000 It was – Well, there's some white-collar crime.

02:35:52.000 We violated the federal acquisition regulations.

02:35:55.000 We sole-sourced this work to some big companies for decades.

02:36:00.000 Contractors are going to litigate this to the Supreme Court, saying they lost billions of projected income because they didn't get the bid on the work.

02:36:07.000 And it's going to be this like...

02:36:10.000 Yeah.

02:36:14.000 Yeah.

02:36:15.000 Yeah.

02:36:29.000 Here you go.

02:36:29.000 And, you know, they don't get convicted of those crimes.

02:36:32.000 And I'm not saying...

02:36:32.000 I mean, people who have committed murder as it relates to the subject, okay, we should probably hold them accountable.

02:36:37.000 But for some of this stuff, there needs to be a process where we kind of mitigate some of those unfortunate legal issues.

02:36:45.000 But that was one of the main issues a certain group for a reasonably recent administration came up with and advised that president, hey, look, there's going to be a lot of Supreme Court stuff.

02:36:57.000 Let's not...

02:36:58.000 That makes sense.

02:36:59.000 Be that guy.

02:37:00.000 So it's like that's the barrier?

02:37:02.000 That's the reason?

02:37:03.000 Come on. 0.99

02:37:04.000 It's so ridiculous. 0.82

02:37:06.000 It makes sense, though, that they would think that way because I do believe that lawsuits would emerge from something like that. 0.82

02:37:11.000 Trevor Burrus Oh, certainly.

02:37:12.000 And also it's like the government admitting that we can't protect its citizenry.

02:37:18.000 If these nonhuman intelligents want to do something to you, sorry, we don't have any countermeasures to that. 0.99

02:37:24.000 It's like there's a social contract between the citizens and the government.

02:37:28.000 We can protect you, etc.

02:37:31.000 In this case, it's like it's an enigma.

02:37:33.000 But I think this is almost like—you remember after 9-11?

02:37:36.000 I was in high school when 9-11 happened, and people were afraid of dirty bombs, terrorists.

02:37:41.000 We didn't know what was going to happen next.

02:37:43.000 We lived in fear, but we banded together in the presence of fear and apprehension and unknowing what the world was going to be, and we made it through it.

02:37:54.000 I mean, that's a coarse analogy to this, but I— Yeah.

02:38:03.000 Yeah.

02:38:17.000 I am.

02:38:18.000 I mean, it's kind of like when I was testifying in the public hearing, oddly bipartisan in a good way.

02:38:25.000 I had AOC and Matt Gaetz agreeing on something, and they were smiling at each other.

02:38:29.000 That's crazy.

02:38:30.000 This is crazy.

02:38:32.000 I'm like, look, there's AOC, there's Matt Gaetz, there's Tim Burchette.

02:38:35.000 I mean, there's people, Garcia, people that wouldn't see eye-to-eye on most subjects.

02:38:39.000 Because it's such a human issue.

02:38:40.000 Because they want to know the truth, too.

02:38:42.000 And I don't think the leaders in Congress...

02:38:46.000 Yeah.

02:39:13.000 Right, right.

02:39:14.000 So you're actually, you know, non-constitutional by not allowing our commander in chief all information sometimes.

02:39:24.000 And I don't know what Harry Reid talked to Joe Biden.

02:39:27.000 I mean, it was certainly the substance that I mentioned here.

02:39:30.000 And I hope that Joe Biden has been briefed on the program, so to speak.

02:39:36.000 At least I'm giving him an oral unclassified briefing right now, I guess, if he hasn't been.

02:39:40.000 And I'm happy to talk to Jake Sullivan or Avril Haines.

02:39:45.000 And Avril Haines, if she's not briefed, Like, she's supposed to be briefed to all intelligence in the country.

02:39:50.000 It's 50 U.S. Code, Section 3024. The Director of National Intelligence has allowed everything from all federal agencies that's intel-related.

02:40:00.000 Well, ma'am, if you don't know what I'm talking about, we have a problem.

02:40:04.000 Because you're not being briefed by CIA Director and some other agencies.

02:40:10.000 So...

02:40:11.000 Well, listen, David, I really appreciate what you've done.

02:40:15.000 I think you've done a great service to humanity just by taking a stand and communicating these ideas and letting people know how much of this is real.

02:40:28.000 And you've opened up a world of discourse that probably would not have existed if you hadn't done that.

02:40:35.000 Thanks.

02:40:36.000 Yeah.

02:40:36.000 I mean, this was not easy.

02:40:38.000 I'm sure.

02:40:39.000 I appreciate it.

02:40:40.000 Thank you very much for being here.

02:40:41.000 And good luck in the future.

02:40:44.000 Thank you.

02:40:44.000 All right.

02:40:45.000 Bye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - November 21, 2023

Joe Rogan Experience #2065 - David Grusch

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