In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, I sit down with retired Navy SEAL Team Six Chief Warrant Officer (Ret.) David "Dave" McElizondo to talk about his career in the military and civilian intelligence and how he became a believer in UFOs. We talk about the early days of his career at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency (NGA) and dive deep into the history of the Unidentified Flying Saucer Program (UFP). And we talk about how he got into the UFO field and what he's been up to since then. If you're interested in learning more about UFOs, be sure to check out our new episode on the UFO Sightings Project, where we cover all things related to the alien abduction and abduction cases that have been going on since the early 20th century. And if you want to learn more about the UAP Task Force, head over to our website and sign up for a FREE membership! Thanks to our sponsor, Anomalous Philomena, for sponsoring this episode and supporting the show! See you next week for our next episode of The Joe Rogans Experience! -Joe Rogan Podcast by day, by night, all day! -All day, all the time! -JOE ROGAN PODCAST by day. - By night, All day, Joe's Podcast by night! -The Joes podcast by night. (featuring the late greats) - The Joes Experience by day and all day all day by night by night? - Joe's Joes Podcasts Podcast by Night, by day by day - by night all day, Joes' Podcasts by night - by day! , by night Joes by day Joes! by night Joe's podcast by day? , all day Joe's podcast by day... by night?! Joespod by day: Joes Podcast by night and by night... JoesPodcast by Joes podcast? - JoesPODCAST BY DAY Joespond by day . (by night! by night?? by joespodcast by josephine podcast? by night joespods by day joes podcast? by evening? by day s podcast by joe's pod by day?? in joseys pod by night!! , by the night, by the evening?
00:01:25.000You know, behind the door special access program, technical type activities.
00:01:30.000I was kind of a space intelligence expert, a cyber intel expert.
00:01:35.000And Like I said, this was not on my radar at all.
00:01:39.000You know, I would joke with my buddies because I used to handle the presidential daily brief for the National Reconnaissance Office director in my military capacity as a reservist.
00:01:49.000And I was well clear to hundreds and hundreds of compartmented programs.
00:01:54.000And, you know, the joke was like, when are we going to get the read on for the crazy shit?
00:02:46.000But lo and behold – and that was like early 2017. And lo and behold, in December 2017, that New York Times article came up with – that named the AATIP program and the OSAP program, so Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program.
00:03:03.000And the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program being the other acronym.
00:04:11.000And so early 2019 comes along, and my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office, in kind of my Air Force major capacity, forwarded me an email from what stood up in, I guess it was 2018,
00:04:26.000which was the unidentified, well, it was Ariel, now Anomalous Philomena Task Force, UAP Task Force.
00:04:33.000So the UAP Task Force director sent my boss an email saying, hey, we're looking for a rep.
00:06:20.000If this is true and the oral testimony and crazy radar data that I saw when I was on the task force, stuff making turns that didn't make any sense, well, holy shit, what is this stuff then?
00:06:33.000This anomaly with his paint, is this documented?
00:06:41.000And is there a conventional explanation?
00:06:46.000I mean, based on what he described, something to rapidly ionize his paint like that within a day, I can't think of anything off the top of my head in terms of some conventional aerospace technology.
00:07:00.000And this was a certain facility in the continental U.S. This was not overseas.
00:07:04.000So it's not like our adversary is flying some spooky thing in U.S. airspace.
00:08:36.000He did not report it to my knowledge to anybody.
00:08:39.000It wasn't until he reported it to us about five years later that it happened.
00:08:46.000So, are these kind of experiences something that a lot of these pilots are embarrassed about discussing or have apprehension about discussing because they could be ridiculed?
00:08:57.000Yeah, a lot of people that are on flight status, they don't want to be sent to the psych, right?
00:09:01.000You know, there's a whole aerospace physiology kind of empire in the military.
00:09:06.000You know, if you're an operator or, you know, a guy, a missile key turner, you're on what they call a personal reliability program, you're taking like, you know, Tylenol, you got to report it.
00:09:17.000If you have a fever, you got to report it because you're, you know, in control of nuclear weapons when you're on duty.
00:09:23.000And so this idea of being predisposed to fantasy, that's also something that they sort of talk to these people about or try to get a gauge of...
00:10:10.000He didn't have any experience in his life like this.
00:10:12.000It, like, totally blew his mind when he looked out his moonroof and then looked out the side of his car door and saw this 300-foot triangle.
00:10:21.000It was, like, pre-dawn sky, but it was darker than the pre-dawn sky, and it had this, like, plasma edges.
00:10:29.000Like, it was, like, purplish glowing edges and these three lights that had, like, these omnidirectional, like, almost like pool lights.
00:11:01.000So, like, certainly the government has looked at this and, you know, I went to search for that program and that's what I ended up whistleblowing on, right?
00:12:50.000Myself and my trusted colleagues that had a lot, a lot of special accesses like me, you know, we cultivated our network and we ultimately interviewed about 40 people or so, all the way up to multi-star generals.
00:13:05.000Directors of agencies, mid-level guys that literally touched it, worked inside of it, all the stuff.
00:13:12.000They brought intel reports for me to look at, documents, and a lot of that I could cross-verify with other people.
00:13:22.000Oral sources that my high-level colleagues or I talked to and, you know, it checked out.
00:13:29.000Especially when I had enough information on – and I know who specifically to ask.
00:13:36.000Like, hey, well, I went right into this.
00:13:37.000Like, I'm on the UAP task force and we went to those – I'll call them gatekeepers for the lack of a better term.
00:13:44.000And they basically said, fuck you to me and my colleagues.
00:14:04.000And they felt that coming to us, it was a form of a protected disclosure.
00:14:10.000They felt that they weren't really violating anything because, you know, we were the I'll call it the investigatory body for the Department of Defense and the intelligence community and Congress at the time.
00:14:27.000You know, disclosed to a government official in an official capacity, and I, you know, did that.
00:14:32.000And, of course, I protected those people.
00:14:34.000And do know I took those people, a lot of them, and I brought them to the Intelligence Community Inspector General when I filed my complaint.
00:14:41.000Because I don't want people to, you know, hear it from a second-hand source.
00:14:45.000You know, people call it hearsay, whatever.
00:14:47.000Though I have some first-hand knowledge, I... Eventually talk about someday.
00:14:51.000I'm trying to get it cleared, but through security processes.
00:14:56.000So they could hear it and hear the details like who, what, when, where, why, where the shit is, who's in control of it.
00:16:10.000This is obviously very compartmentalized, where there's only a few people that know about this information and they're not allowed to discuss it with other people.
00:16:26.000Like, when did they first realize that there are things that cannot be explained or can't be explained through conventional means?
00:16:35.000Yeah, I mean, the program goes back a ways.
00:16:38.000The precise beginning of it, I can't talk about, but I did, because security stuff, but I did talk about publicly the 1933 retrieval, and I did that tactically, and I ran that through the Security Approval Office because I wanted to show that this is much older and it's international.
00:17:00.000I mean, this stuff is landing or crashing around the world, And unexpected countries have had this happen.
00:17:08.000And that's why I picked that because I thought that was an interesting case.
00:17:12.000And then, of course, Pope Pius XII and the Vatican were involved, back-channeling it through the OSS, which became the CIA later, to FDR. And that's how the U.S. knew something weird happened in Italy during – well, right before World War II. So this was 1933 was the first documented – Uh,
00:17:31.000that is the earliest one I can talk about.
00:19:04.000That is not ours, but let's look at it together.
00:19:09.000So that's kind of perhaps a tertiary reason the kind of Axis powers got together.
00:19:16.000I'm not saying that's like the reason, but I think the Italians and the Germans were so intrigued with what they found from like an artifact perspective.
00:19:23.000There was at least some scientific and military collaboration during the war.
00:19:59.000I assume some of the Italian researchers might have some fact witnesses that can orally say, oh yeah, my great-grandfather found it or something like that.
00:20:35.000So we knew where it was being stored at a particular location after the crash, and then the military came in and we grabbed it towards the end of the war, you know, 1944-1945, because, like I said, Pope Pius XII already kind of Let's FDR know.
00:20:57.000Well, interestingly enough, there's like a whole history of human intelligence prior to World War II and old money, the Vatican, the Italian mob, kind of the old country boys did a lot of informal intelligence collection and For the U.S.,
00:21:15.000and there's probably some books you can read on it, but it's really interesting.
00:21:19.000You know, Human Intelligence Collection wasn't really formalized until the Office of Strategic Services, the OSS, which became the CIA in 1947. You had, you know, Paul Mellon and all these other affluent guys of all these old-money families that basically created the CIA. So that's probably the reason why.
00:21:41.000So this thing that was recovered, this was the first documented one that the United States had access to?
00:21:50.000I can't get into if it was the first or not, but it was an early one.
00:22:21.000And like I've said in some other videos and stuff, you know, we took the Manhattan Project secrecy and overlaid it on this issue because that secrecy worked well for atomic bomb developments and whatnot.
00:22:32.000And certainly this whole program in a nutshell, if I were to like summarize the 90 plus years of history, it is a reverse engineering program.
00:22:47.000And of course, not a lot of the things that we've learned from it are like directly, you know, ripped off the technology we found, but it has inspired other innovations that made its way into other U.S. classified programs over the year for national defense reasons,
00:23:04.000you know, and it's a myriad of different things.
00:23:06.000The UFO folklore is that this is where fiber optics were discovered first.
00:23:13.000Yeah, I'm not going to break the seal on anything we've discovered or anything like that.
00:23:20.000How limited are you in what you can discuss and what you can't discuss and why do they let you discuss any of this?
00:23:25.000Yeah, so anything sensitive that I want to say as it relates to US government activity, whether it be intelligence stuff, military stuff, etc., I have to submit it through what they call DOPSR, DOD Office of Pre-Publication and Security Review.
00:23:39.000That is something anybody who's been an intel officer, anybody with a clearance, has to submit, that kind of stuff.
00:23:46.000Now, obviously, if you're writing a book about gardening, you don't have to, but if you're going to talk about anything military and intelligence related, you have to submit.
00:23:55.000It's kind of a catch-22 for this office, right?
00:23:58.000They're only looking at it from a security perspective.
00:24:01.000They're not vouching for it or anything like that.
00:25:42.000Shit, let's put it out for the KGB, SVR, GRU are now going to hit the streets to try to figure out which ones they missed.
00:25:49.000So I'm here to protect national security and...
00:25:52.000And I'm just trying to put all the general topics out there for public conversation to hold our government accountable, really.
00:26:00.000Because I'm here as a fact witness because we have a constitutional oversight issue because this program has not been reported to Congress in the appropriate way.
00:26:16.000And I can get into a senator I talked to that...
00:26:21.000Has died recently, so I can explain to you why I'm so sure.
00:26:27.000Besides what I read, which we can get into what Intel reports I read, I did get some stuff cleared.
00:26:33.000So, during my investigation, I'm like, you know what?
00:26:37.000I need to talk to somebody at the highest levels, right?
00:26:40.000And this will give you an idea of the kind of people we talk to, and this is the only one I'm going to talk about using their name because they died two years ago.
00:26:48.000So, In spring 2021, I actually flew with a couple colleagues of mine to Las Vegas, and I met with Senator Harry Reid about nine months before he died.
00:27:00.000And of course, he's a private citizen now, and I wanted to brief him on The topic, and I wanted to get his kind of thought leadership on it, because, you know, he was a Gang of Eight member, right?
00:27:10.000You know, which is the top, most cleared senators and congressmen.
00:27:14.000He was the majority leader, for God's sake, of the Senate.
00:27:17.000And I knew, you know, he helped sponsor the OSAP program that I mentioned, and where they looked at Skinwalker Ranch and some other things.
00:27:26.000And I wanted to understand, like, what does Harry Reid actually know?
00:27:54.000And then he explained some of his efforts during OSAP. And I was like, holy shit, did the former majority leader just say that he just confirmed this to me as well?
00:28:06.000I was already talking to these amazing high-level people, but I have Harry Reid literally saying, yes, we have material, and he knew it was non-human.
00:28:16.000Did Harry Reid have personal experience with this?
00:28:19.000I don't know if he's had any personal stuff in his personal life.
00:28:35.000And he actually told me on behalf of me he was going – so he had like a weekly call with President Joe Biden at the time.
00:28:43.000And he straight up said to me he was going to talk to President Biden about this issue, literally.
00:28:51.000And then what he was telling me about OSAP, I was like, holy shit.
00:28:58.000I have like 20 other people that told me this, dude.
00:29:00.000So the real history, what fucking OSAP was, because I think there's a lot of people out there that think they were looking at ghosts, Skinwalker Ranch.
00:29:10.000Yes, they went to the ranch as a secondary and tertiary objective.
00:29:15.000But the real reason, so like there's a document that came out a couple years ago through FOIA from the Defense Intelligence Agency.
00:29:24.000There was this special access program request that Harry Reid, you might have seen this, I think like George Knapp and company have reported on this.
00:30:37.000You know, we knew that Lockheed Martin had this material for decades.
00:30:40.000I tried to get access and I was denied.
00:30:43.000And specifically with the Lockheed Martin stuff, he was talking about during the OSAP program.
00:30:49.000And for the people who are on this program, I submitted this shit to the officer, got this cleared, so don't freak out, but I'm telling the truth here.
00:30:57.000So Lockheed Martin wanted to divest itself from this material at a specific facility that's known to me, that I provided to the Inspector General, like street address, all that shit, right?
00:31:10.000And the idea was, if they made a catcher's mitt, a security catcher's mitt for this shit, you know, most serious sap possible, the contractor and the other government customer, which was the Central Intelligence Agency...
00:31:26.000And it was shit that they recovered from like the 50s and stuff.
00:31:29.000It was like bits and pieces of like hall structure, shit like that.
00:31:37.000And so they were going to tech transfer it, and the $21 or $22 million was actually for Bigelow Aerospace to build out, you know, facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis equipment.
00:31:55.000Like, there's a paperwork trail I've seen on this shit.
00:31:57.000And I talked to the people involved in this program.
00:32:00.000And, you know, even Jim Lekatsky, who ran the program, He's a retired DIA officer, PhD in engineering, even made this disclosure in his book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, page 152 to 153. And he also made a disclosure a couple of weeks ago,
00:32:18.000I think it was on Weaponize podcast with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, where he's like, yeah, we had a whole craft and we broke into the hall and we gained access.
00:32:31.000And he ran that through the same security process as I did.
00:32:34.000And so Jim Lekatsky, who ran this program, is also going on the record that he is personally aware of intact vehicles and everything.
00:33:56.000I don't know James Lekatsky, but I do encourage him to be a fact witness.
00:33:59.000But going back to that transfer with Lockheed, long story short, can't get in all the nuanced details, but basically the CIA said, fuck you to DIA and Lockheed, and it was totally killed.
00:34:15.000So Harry Reid's request to get the material transferred to the OSAP program.
00:34:20.000I was totally killed because of bureaucracy and kind of fiefdom stuff.
00:34:24.000So they used that money and then they wrote those defense intelligence reference documents.
00:34:31.000The DIRDs is a lot of people who's familiar with it listening will know about.
00:34:36.000And then they did look at Skinwalker Ranch because...
00:34:41.000They thought that studying kind of the more woo-woo phenomenon aspects of this, and I've never been to the ranch, so I've never experienced the ranch for myself, but, you know, obviously, I think we both know a bunch of people that have been to the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff,
00:34:59.000They thought that they would be able to gain currency with the program, in this case, CIA, to unlock the key for the Lockheed Martin stuff.
00:35:09.000Which actually, I'll tell you right now, it's so weird to say that, but I ran that shit through security.
00:35:16.000To me, it's like an out-of-body experience to talk about that kind of detailed sensitivity, stuff like that.
00:35:22.000But basically, they studied the ranch...
00:35:25.000To gain favor to be like, hey, look at all this stuff we're figuring out, this paranormal stuff that's somehow connected to the phenomenon on the ranch.
00:35:32.000But ultimately, they never gained favor with the government customer.
00:35:36.000And then the program kind of died a slow death because of a lot of politics in the Pentagon.
00:36:35.000It may still be in the same location that I know about, yes.
00:36:38.000And how many people have access to this, and how did they prevent this information from being released?
00:36:46.000I mean, it goes back to the compartmentation and kind of the ecosystem of secrecy in this community, right?
00:36:53.000Only a limited amount of people, at least at the time, on Lockheed Martin's side, And Lockheed Martin was complaining basically like, look, the secrecy is ridiculous.
00:37:04.000We can't even bring the right engineers.
00:37:20.000You want to publish an IEEE. You want to climb the ladder corporately and that kind of thing.
00:37:28.000A Lockheed Martin executive comes to you, yeah, dude, I can reach into something really crazy, but you're never going to publish papers on it.
00:37:38.000You're never going to be able to tell people what you worked on, and it's probably not the most career-enhancing.
00:37:43.000But if you want to work on something cool, but I can't tell you because it's unacknowledged until you sign this piece of paper, non-disclosure agreement...
00:37:56.000You know, sorry, but here's the raw deal.
00:37:58.000And, you know, a lot of people are like, fuck you, no.
00:38:01.000And it's not like Lockheed Martin could broadcast this to universities like, come work for us.
00:38:11.000Very akin to a lot of other black programs in the government that are out of knowledge in nature.
00:38:17.000You don't know what you're signing up for until you get bred in.
00:38:19.000And I've been briefed to a lot of that kind of conventional stuff in my career.
00:38:23.000Trevor Burrus So that's one of the problems that Bob Lazar – and I'd love to get your take on Bob Lazar.
00:38:30.000One of the things that he talked about was that science – Can't really operate in a vacuum.
00:38:36.000When you separate the metallurgists from the propulsion experts, from the biological experts, and they're not allowed to communicate with each other, and they're not allowed to bring in other experts to have different Well, that was the frustration that I had some friends that I've known my entire career,
00:39:11.000I'm looking at Material X doing some...
00:39:14.000X-ray diffraction testing on it, which is like shooting a stream of electrons and seeing how it bends and looking at the atomic arrangements.
00:39:22.000I can't even cross-talk that with another aspect of the program.
00:39:37.000If everybody was already sworn to secrecy, everybody already has NDAs, it seems the most effective way of reverse engineering or at least gaining an understanding of how these things are structured.
00:39:47.000Well, that's exactly how Manhattan was, right?
00:39:49.000People working on the fuses for the bomb didn't necessarily know it was going to a nuclear weapon.
00:39:55.000And I've seen this kind of compartmentationist obtuse secrecy in other programs, and it is debilitating for progress.
00:40:01.000And honestly, as a former fiduciary of the taxpayer dollars, it's not the best modus operandus to do it that way.
00:40:10.000And very few people kind of had that top-down, could look across the silos and see what was going on.
00:40:17.000It just became very dysfunctional and they were afraid of people being too cross-briefed into the different silos for counter-espionage, counter-intelligence.
00:40:32.000And, you know, we were afraid of Russian spies, Soviet moles.
00:40:36.000And so we made it ultra locked down, but to the detriment of national security.
00:40:41.000And that was one of the crazy things that got me that I wanted to whistleblow on because I'm like, this is so stupid.
00:40:47.000Like, we should be making more progress on this.
00:40:49.000Were there any breaches that you're aware of where foreign agents were able to gain access to materials or an understanding of what we know?
00:40:58.000So I'll tell you about some intel documents I read that kind of obliquely answers that question.
00:41:03.000So there was a sense of human-derived forward intelligence that I read.
00:41:09.000So I had access to kind of the AATIP, OSAP classified archives, and I was like thumbing through everything, and there were some other people who were bringing me documents to evaluate.
00:42:39.000And all of a sudden, the agency ghosted my boss and I for like two months.
00:42:44.000And then when I really pressed them hard to gain access, because I'm like, I have a need to know.
00:42:50.000I need to evaluate this intelligence for fucking Congress.
00:42:54.000And they debriefed me from all my accesses over in that other sister agency and made up some bogus excuse, like I shouldn't have been briefed anything in the first place, literally.
00:43:08.000And basically gave me an administrative middle finger like, persona non grata, don't ever fucking ask us about that shit again.
00:43:16.000And I'm sure the person who made the oops that told me they had what I was looking for probably got admonished and slapped on the wrist because I never heard from that person again, even though it was somebody I actually used to work on occasion with.
00:43:30.000So that was also another way I knew I was...
00:43:37.000There was a lot of smoke and fire because I had stuff like that happen to me.
00:43:42.000So, knowing that our adversaries were aware of this reverse engineering program, are we aware of their reverse engineering programs?
00:44:38.000Just to be clear, I want the U.S. populace to learn a lot of this.
00:44:43.000And this is why – another reason why I went public is like I need to call everybody out.
00:44:48.000I'm not here to admonish the entire government, mind you.
00:44:51.000But there is an element of the U.S. government and its clear defense contractor base that – We have a three-branch of government oversight issue, like going back to Harry Reid.
00:46:07.000Read that on air or something in a previous episode, if I remember correctly.
00:46:10.000You know, Chuck Schumer, and I knew about the amendment a couple months before I went public, and that's kind of another reason why I did what I did.
00:46:18.000I'm like, the only guy that kind of has the opportunity to do this, I know what's in the chute, so to speak, that Chuck Schumer and his staff had with the Schumer Amendment, which is 67 pages of literal, we want to disclose.
00:46:32.000And I'm like, I have to spike the football by going public because, you know, I can read the tea leaves on the hill and I think that they were hesitant to do anything without being able to point to something publicly.
00:46:45.000And I'm like, I'll be that fucking guy and just send it.
00:46:50.000And then, of course, a month after I went public, I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge.
00:46:58.000And I do know he talked to the White House about the amendment, too, because it's not like Chuck Schumer is going to propose groundbreaking legislation like that without talking to the National Security Advisor or President.
00:48:02.000And the act is really long, but the main meat of it is about halfway through the act, it talks about a presidential panel or agency, which is nine-person, and a controlled UAP disclosure plan that's six years in length,
00:48:18.000conceivably from 2024 to 2030. And this panel, and you can read this, this is public law, anybody can read this, They want scientists, economists, sociologists, etc.
00:48:30.000It's kind of like who you would want to help craft the plan for the president and this whole bill was actually – Yeah.
00:49:45.000You need a presidential-level panel that can declassify stuff, reach into other agencies, and tell certain secretaries, we're coming in, we want your stuff, under presidential authority.
00:49:58.000So what's happening in the House, from what I'm told from people on the Hill that are working the issue right now, you have the chair of the House Intel Committee, Mike Turner, who's blocking this.
00:51:08.000Okay, so, and first of all, if you thought you needed more information or wanted to talk to me personally, why didn't you call me back when I reported to your committee?
00:51:17.000So, and furthermore, besides blocking the bill...
00:51:44.000And Mike Turner is looking to fund, according to staffers I've talked to the last two weeks, an opposition candidate for Tim's re-election in 2024. So why is Mike Turner going out of his way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee representative on the Oversight Committee?
00:52:03.000And why are you blocking a bill, and it's not going to cost much, a couple million a year max, you know, for the panel, which is like vaporware in U.S. government speak, right?
00:52:14.000If there's nothing to see here, why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in the House blocking this bill that is, in my opinion, the most important legislation for transparency in American history?
00:52:28.000If there's nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy, multi-star generals I talk to are crazy, the intel docs that I read are incorrect, they're fucking forgeries or passage material or something like that.
00:52:40.000Good friends of mine that worked on the program are bullshitting me in some consorted operation against me and my colleagues that it would be totally crazy to even conduct that because I took precautions.
00:52:52.000Then why don't we just pass this and see what happens?
00:52:57.000And what do you think the answer to that is?
00:53:00.000Special interests want to keep the genie in the bottle, even though the toothpaste is coming out of the tube.
00:53:04.000And I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex that doesn't want change.
00:53:09.000And I'm not here to be some total adversary.
00:53:13.000I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process on this issue.
00:53:59.000And I know that with 100% certainty, which as an intel officer, you never say 100%, but...
00:54:07.000All things pointed towards, based on the people I talk to, like Harry Reid, and I use him as an example, but I talk to the highest of the high people you could possibly talk to if you catch my drift.
00:54:23.000Unless all of them are lying and they're covering up something else, which I don't even know what it would be at this point, because the phenomenon is real.
00:54:30.000It's been going on for thousands of years.
00:54:33.000People have been seeing strange things and not everybody's mass hallucinating.
00:54:37.000So, that's kind of my long diatribe about what's happening.
00:55:02.000Okay, that isn't a possible origin, but the Schumer Amendment, if you read it, it specifically uses non-human intelligence, NHI, very deliberately because we want to catch everything because what if some of this stuff is not ET and they're going to use that as an escape clause?
00:55:18.000Like, well, this stuff that we don't even know if it's extraterrestrial, so this doesn't apply.
00:55:23.000So that's why we wanted to be as broad as possible.
00:55:26.000I mean, besides ET, I mean, a lot of it would be my own...
00:55:51.000In a different way, like a good example is like witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with, you know, paralysis in medieval and enlightenment era became this alien abduction phenomenon in the modern era.
00:57:17.000And unless Ezekiel is tripping or this is an allegory or fable in the Bible, you know, let's say the event happens.
00:57:25.000Just like in the Vedic text, you have the battles, the blue people and the battles in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons.
00:57:37.000Graham Hancock or Randall Carlson type thing, they know more than I. So there is a real phenomenon that origin undetermined, but it's trippy, and sometimes it presents itself in a non-corporeal form too.
00:57:54.000Orbs, balls of energy, they don't appear as some kind of bipedal hominid like some people have espoused.
00:58:03.000So I think that might be Call it interdimensional, call it shadow biome, crypto-terrestrial.
00:58:10.000I mean, there's a lot of different theories.
00:58:23.000Origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans because we're just our meat is stuck in 3D and we don't understand and our IQs are only so high.
00:58:32.000So there might be some origins that we don't understand.
00:58:35.000In terms of like interdimensional travel.
00:58:38.000Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, if you talk to mainstream physicists, they say, like, crossing dimensions physically is kind of a trope of sci-fi.
00:58:48.000And, you know, that's why I used an example.
00:58:51.000And I know some physicists don't like me talking about this theory, but it is a theory.
00:58:55.000You know, like, so the holographic principle, which was originally conceived to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon of a black hole, which is a...
00:59:07.000Distance away from the singularity of a black hole where if you cross it, you're fucked because you're going to get ripped to shreds or you're not coming back.
00:59:14.000And that principle talks about how information basically from higher dimensional space can be encoded in lower dimensional space.
00:59:53.000Is really operating in higher spatial dimensions, but is either being projected or quasi-projected into our 3D plus time space, which is really trippy to think about, but we literally do it on a day-to-day basis, like casting shadows.
01:00:07.000So, and that might be some of what we're seeing, too.
01:00:37.000Yeah, and a lot of that is based off of, like, large—this is my bachelor's degree talking.
01:00:42.000I know there's going to be, like, some physicist who has a PhD who's like, oh, Dave, you fucked that up.
01:00:47.000But basically, you know, from high-energy particle collisions and based on the deflection angles and all this stuff, what happens when the particles collide, you know— Confirm certain theoretical frameworks about extra spatial dimensions.
01:01:03.000And, you know, I can't speak with any real authority on, you know, precisely how that works.
01:01:09.000But a lot of, whether it be string theory or quantum mechanics, are based off of higher spatial dimensions.
01:01:16.000And, you know, so that is a mainstream physics theoretical framework.
01:01:23.000That's not like wacky or loony or anything like that.
01:02:12.000So the physicist Kip Thorne was the very famous guy.
01:02:16.000He was a big black hole and wormhole guy.
01:02:19.000I think it's Caltech or somewhere in California.
01:02:22.000Kip Thorne actually did all the physics equations and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they were conceptualizing and visualizing, uh, Black holes and wormholes and all that stuff correctly in the movie.
01:02:36.000We saw, like, the halo around the black hole when they were coming in with the ship and everything.
01:02:42.000That's actually based off of real physics models that Kip Thorne did the calculations for, which is pretty cool, actually, that Christopher Nolan took it to that level, you know?
01:02:51.000So this idea that these beings, or whatever you want to call them, exist in some other dimension, do we have...
01:03:02.000I mean, I don't know what you can say about this.
01:03:41.000Then you realize we've recovered artifacts and, you know, biologics or, you know, dead pilots, if you will, even though it's, you know, kind of creepy to even think about that in your worldview.
01:03:53.000You don't think they were ever, you know, alive sometimes too, right?
01:03:58.000You know, I'll leave it at that only because, you know, that is something, you know, the president and his cabinet need to disclose this in a controlled manner going back to that amendment.
01:04:35.000There's a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need to happen and that's why I'm laying out all the general stuff that needs to be talked about during the disclosure process.
01:04:44.000But I should not be the one disclosing and it would be highly inappropriate because I care about the health of the United States and its people and national security for me to do so.
01:04:56.000So I know there's people that are like, oh, why doesn't Dave say X, Y, and Z? It's like...
01:05:29.000I wanted to see change, so I'm throwing the flag out, and I'm here to hold the government accountable to do the right thing in a manner that is mature and thorough, because I don't begin to say that I know everything,
01:05:45.000all the different ramifications of saying certain things publicly.
01:05:49.000I don't know all the answers to that, and that's why I have to be careful, because I don't even know— I'll call it, you know, collateral damage effects to use kind of a military term.
01:05:58.000What may happen of certain things in detail that are revealed that I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something that I'm not privy to.
01:06:08.000So this is like a serious—this is not like a fun situation.
01:06:11.000This is like humanity changing, hopefully in a good way, but this is like, you know— Quite serious.
01:06:20.000And I, you know, risked my personal and professional life and personal life because things have happened to me to be public like this.
01:06:30.000And, you know, I swore an oath, but, you know, myself and my generation, you know, want to see a change.
01:06:36.000Can you discuss the things that have happened to you personally?
01:06:38.000Yeah, so a lot of the stuff I have to be purposely vague because there's an open Inspector General reprisal investigation on my behalf, and I'm not here to compromise the investigation by tipping off my antibodies that may be watching right now.
01:06:55.000You know, when I really started looking into this, I mean, they came after me so hard to try to revoke my clearance, ruin my career, kicked me out of my agency, and they accused me of everything you could possibly think of with,
01:08:14.000I was under criminal investigation for a couple months, and I didn't even know that, nor did they interview me, but they made a finding with no evidence they tried to use against me that I had to spend money to basically litigate and maintain my employment and my clearance,
01:09:19.000So I have to be very vague about this because ongoing investigation, but I think you'll understand what I'm saying, is they showed my wife and I they can touch me at any time.
01:09:36.000It was in conjunction with some other people getting a message like that that are, let's say, publicly well-known, some that aren't publicly well-known.
01:09:45.000And, of course, I immediately reported that to, you know, counterintelligence, federal law enforcement local to me because it, you know, wasn't criminal, but it was like a fuck you to me.
01:09:55.000And this was right before I filed my...
01:10:58.000And I knew I needed to do something internally.
01:11:02.000And then when I saw the writing on the wall...
01:11:05.000I knew earlier this year, and of course I knew about the Schumer Amendment like I mentioned earlier, and I knew I'm like, you know, I got to do this for my own protection because me leaving the Federal Service, because I resigned my Air Force commission.
01:11:16.000I totally threw that career away to do what I thought was the right and patriotic thing.
01:11:23.000To whistleblow on this, you know, and I swore my oath 18 years ago, and that sounds hokey, but I believe, you know, integrity first, service before self, and excellence is all we do.
01:12:02.000But I am because I want to see change.
01:12:05.000I saw something unethical and unmoral.
01:12:07.000I want to make sure I hold that element of the government accountable.
01:12:11.000And it was the right fucking thing to do.
01:12:14.000And I get kind of emotional about that because, you know, my career has been service and sacrifice.
01:12:20.000And, you know, I had two friends of mine die.
01:12:23.000And I've talked about this publicly before.
01:12:27.000And And I'm segueing a little bit, but the suffering of the American intelligence officer is something that for their service of their country, and we're not talking about this subject, obviously, people don't realize the kind of trauma Intel professionals go through.
01:12:45.000So, first of all, I had a friend six months after I got back from Afghanistan.
01:13:26.000Unfortunately, he suffered from depression and it was – as his best friend, he didn't even confide in me.
01:13:31.000I remember chit-chatting him – chit-chatting with him on the phone one day about 28 days after he was my best man and he didn't tell me anything was wrong with him.
01:13:41.000And a few hours later, he walked in his backyard and shot himself.
01:13:45.000And I gave his eulogy at his – At his funeral.
01:13:52.000And that really, you know, really affected me.
01:13:55.000And with what Ben experienced, which I can't get into all the stuff he did, obviously, but imagine being the guy that decides that that person is bad.
01:14:14.000Let's go back to, you know, the wife and kids at the end of your shift.
01:14:18.000And a lot of that, you know, I did the same kind of thing.
01:14:21.000I did a lot of stuff overseas involved interrogations and stuff.
01:14:27.000You know, ops that you had to decide if a target is bad enough where you're going to affect their life forever and their family's life forever.
01:14:35.000And that's the silent suffering of intel professionals, especially during the global war on terror, which was, you know, 21 years or so.
01:14:43.000And, you know, the trauma and the mental health problems that people...
01:15:23.000Have to make really tough decisions for the country that affect people's lives on the receiving end.
01:15:29.000Was there a concern while you're going through all this that if you didn't come out with this that we would be stuck in the same sort of loop for a long, long period of time and no one would ever have access to this stuff?
01:16:27.000You know, I even saw that in my government service.
01:16:30.000And I think humanity is kind of stuck right now and we need to change.
01:16:35.000And this subject is like one of the only unifying, ontologically shocking, but I would think generally unifying topics where...
01:16:45.000Where if announced by the US and other major powers that have knowledge in a controlled manner, that this could change humanity for the better, make us look inside ourselves, become less divisive, and care maybe a little less about superficial things.
01:17:03.000So that's kind of my philosophical motivation to do what I did.
01:17:10.000And you're confronted with one of the biggest mysteries in human history.
01:17:22.000I mean, the people I talked to certainly did, and they had close personal knowledge, and the intel reports I read literally indicated that as well, like I talked about earlier.
01:17:42.000So, it's a caste system of, you know, people in government and outside of government in the industrial complex that run this stuff under little oversight.
01:17:52.000And, you know, I remember some of the people who denied us access, they were like, you know, I don't know what you're talking about, but if I did, why would you have a need to know?
01:18:01.000And I'm like, well, why did you have a need to know?
01:18:52.000These basic facts should be classified?
01:18:55.000Are you saying that this fits in this bill?
01:18:58.000And you notice the Schumer Amendment, if anybody reads it, Awkwardly calls out the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, right?
01:19:07.000And they're basically treating this as nuclear secrets because it gives off nuclear radiation.
01:19:16.000Because if you look at the ultra-vague definition of special nuclear material, which is Section 51 of the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, it says anything that gives off a sizable amount of atomic energy.
01:19:43.000And you're saying this is a U.S. nuclear secret.
01:19:45.000You're trans-classifying it into a nuclear secret.
01:19:49.000Which I understand maybe at first why they did that.
01:19:54.000And I'm not admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did many years ago when this was more of an enigma and we wanted to lock it down, figure it out, and then see what we're going to do.
01:20:06.000But there's never been a disclosure plan.
01:20:08.000I always ask that to these super senior people I've talked to.
01:21:27.000Well, that's a part of the problem with people that have secrets.
01:21:30.000It's like once you have secrets and a part of your identity is the holder of those secrets and part of the culture of these These industries is that they are the ones that have the access to that.
01:21:45.000Yeah, and I saw that in conventional really black programs I was a part of in my career.
01:21:51.000It was almost like you got that secret society vibe where it's like if you're a career government servant, your salary is not that great, but knowledge is your currency.
01:22:07.000And I remember getting read into some stuff that like it was like the president and very limited number of people getting read into and I was one of them because I was operating a certain thing for a certain op.
01:22:18.000And, oh, you're part of the club, you know, like only 30 people are cleared or whatever and I'm like...
01:23:26.000Do we know or would you have an understanding of how many of them we're talking about and the variety of them?
01:23:33.000Yeah, there is a variety and we have a certain number of different things.
01:23:40.000But the like total numbers of like what's interacting with us on Earth, I mean nobody knows that.
01:23:46.000But there's an understanding of some that they do believe are interacting with us and there's a variety in terms of – there's variables.
01:23:52.000Yeah, I talk to people who are familiar with the biological analysis and everything.
01:23:57.000So we have – Some idea, not a complete picture, because it's like, you know, you're looking at it, it's like, well, I don't even understand the physiology at all.
01:24:19.000I gotta be careful, I don't want to...
01:24:25.000I was in Washington, D.C. with a very number of senior people that work for members of Congress, put it that way, when I was still in government.
01:24:36.000And I brought the people who worked on that stuff.
01:25:28.000Like, he's the guy that you would want on it, but he's not on it.
01:25:32.000So I think we can make a lot of progress in our understanding, once again, if this is more broadly studied in an open environment.
01:25:42.000Trevor Burrus Are you aware of the Nixon-Jackie Gleason story?
01:25:46.000Vaguely, I stayed away from ufology because I had these contemporary people that were inside.
01:25:53.000I could check all their credentials, where they worked, etc., But I'm vaguely familiar where, what was it, like Nixon brought Jackie Gleason to some facility and showed him some stuff or something like that?
01:27:45.000I bet he was like that in a lot of ways.
01:27:47.000You know, I mean, Hunter S. Thompson famously recalled his, yeah, there's the two of them meeting together, famously recalled sitting in the backseat of a limo with Nixon talking about football.
01:27:59.000And he was like, God, if I didn't think he was a piece of shit, I'd actually kind of like him.
01:29:13.000Do we have an understanding, you don't have to answer where, of where they came from?
01:29:21.000Nobody I talked to espoused any specific origin to me.
01:29:24.000We may know that, but I'm not aware of anything, so I don't know.
01:29:29.000Are there reports of some kind of interaction with these things where they're giving information or discussing the problems of humanity and possible solutions or explaining why they're here?
01:29:46.000Interactions was a sensitive subject that my...
01:29:55.000I suppose that there's probably detailed documentation of those interactions that goes into a lot of the stuff you're asking.
01:30:01.000I truly don't even know the answer to a lot of that.
01:30:04.000Is there discussions amongst these people that there have been these sort of...
01:30:10.000There was water cooler talk with some people I talked to on the program.
01:30:39.000Those people who physically were there, were on the program, did the thing, I brought to the inspector general.
01:30:47.000Are there discussions of interactions with live beings?
01:30:53.000There was some water cooler talk about that kind of thing, but I don't even want to get into it because it's like, there were some details provided to me, but it's secondary, and I don't know if that's the telephone game, and I don't know if it was hyperbolized in any way in the break room,
01:31:38.000Well, one of the stories from Roswell that's fascinating to me is that Eisenhower had the wreckage flown to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in two separate jets in case one of them crashed.
01:31:51.000There has been some public testimony to General DuBose.
01:31:57.000There were some old-timers that at least did some videos in the 90s.
01:32:42.000Jesse Michaels on American Alchemy put together, I think, a short video yesterday, and there's like a section in there where he actually has that Goldwater interview.
01:32:51.000But General Goldwater's like, yeah, one day I called Curtis LeMay, who's a very famous Air Force general, and was like, General?
01:32:58.000I heard that there's this room that you, you know, have UFO material and Barry Goldwater espouses in this interview like, yeah, and LeMay got madder than hell at me and told me never to fucking ask about that again.
01:33:12.000I might have added the F word in there just for fun.
01:34:45.000Presumably, Chuck Schumer's talk to Jake Sullivan and President Biden, and you know who's in the White House right now is John Podesta.
01:34:56.000He is the green energy czar or something like that in the White House.
01:35:00.000But John Podesta – shout out to John Podesta in the White House.
01:35:05.000He has an axe to grind on this issue too because remember he tweeted at the end of Obama's second term, you know, my biggest failure was not to have Obama – John Stossel.
01:35:46.000About two years ago or so, you can find it online, where Pompeo talks about the JFK file and dismisses it or something about, like, there's no boogeyman here.
01:35:54.000But then he quickly says, oh, I've seen the UFO file too, and we have bigger problems.
01:36:04.000But at least the way it was edited, John Stossel didn't even follow up, at least the way the final cut was.
01:36:11.000I'm like, dude, if I was John Stossel, I'd be like, what do you mean, Mike Pompeo?
01:36:15.000You've seen the UFO file, and we have bigger problems.
01:36:19.000And UFO file, the way I interpret that, is a long, existing...
01:36:26.000File or briefing document or something that he had access to.
01:36:30.000So I think the former CIA director, Mike Pompeo, should probably clarify what he said two years ago.
01:36:36.000If anybody interviews him next, ask Mike that question.
01:36:43.000Well, we certainly have bigger problems in terms of our current existence, specifically with what you were talking about earlier, the proxy wars and collapse of society as we know it, which it seems to be.
01:36:54.000Yeah, I mean, I feel for the Ukrainian and the Israeli people.
01:36:58.000I'm not taking any particular side, but certainly...
01:37:57.000And I understand, you know, what the National Security Council determination was that they've discussed publicly where there's kind of like trying to drain Russia's military capability and...
01:38:10.000Annexation of Ukrainian territory because they don't want Russia's sphere of influence to further enter that caucus region and stuff.
01:38:51.000And if you look out into the cosmos, if you've ever gone a clear night and you look out and you realize those are all stars and those stars are all surrounded by planets and there's literally hundreds of billions of them.
01:39:03.000In the Drake equation, you can calculate what probable sentient life is.
01:39:08.000And I've been an amateur astronomer since I've been a kid, and I've never...
01:39:11.000Crazy enough, I've never seen anything remarkable.
01:39:16.000I've seen some stuff that could have been ball lightning and some satellite passes that weren't registered online.
01:39:24.000You could actually check to see if there's going to be an iridium flare or something like that.
01:39:28.000Maybe that was a satellite pass, maybe not.
01:39:31.000But I've never seen in my personal life...
01:40:39.000We don't want to go anywhere near them.
01:40:41.000And so people think that there would be some kind of open contact with some higher sentience that is either visiting Earth or from another dimension or whatever the origin is.
01:40:55.000We're probably neutral at best and maybe actually fearful of us in some sense.
01:41:00.000Or we're the progeny of, you know, personal opinion, progeny of some experiment.
01:41:07.000And it's almost like living in the Matrix, but it's not like an actual simulation.
01:41:11.000It's like we want the simulation to go.
01:41:14.000We don't want to intercede because we want to see what, you know, Homo sapiens sapiens 2.0 is going to do after the Great Flood or something like that, right?
01:43:21.000Advanced, and we seem to just possess other skills.
01:43:25.000I mean, it goes back to, like, the Stargate program, right?
01:43:29.000You know, with Declassified by Clinton and sensibly canceled, I guess, in 96. You know, where you had people trained in remote viewing and, like...
01:43:38.000There was feedback loops to confirm what they saw was real, and either satellite imagery or human sources, where they sketched out a room of where there's hostages, and they got a hostage out, and they're like, and this is a real story, actually.
01:43:51.000And they're like, did you have a source in that room?
01:43:54.000How do you know where all the corridors were and everything?
01:43:56.000I was like, no, actually, Pat Price remote viewed you.
01:44:52.000How are they able to basically be non-locality, right?
01:44:58.000They're able to, like, project themselves somehow, their consciousness, to a—and this is a declassified example from Stargate—a Russian missile base— Sketch the crane and where the silos are, what the status is.
01:45:13.000You know, satellite comes over, takes a picture, and it's exactly the way they sketched it.
01:45:30.000You know, Hal Putov and people who actually ran that program at SRI for the CIA, then DIA and the Army.
01:45:37.000And that seems to be—and men who's staring at goats, right?
01:45:41.000The George Clooney movies, the famous movie based on the Stargate program, seems to be legit as far as we can measure from a feedback perspective.
01:45:50.000What was the explanation for the discontinuation of that program?
01:46:10.000So the idea of that being an emergent property of human beings as we evolve has always been fascinating to me because there's There's certainly something that goes on with human communication other than we make sounds that represent objects and physical things and that the other person interprets those sounds and understands it.
01:46:32.000There's communication between human beings that's...
01:46:35.000Oh, acoustic communication, like the symbol rate, if you will, is really slow.
01:46:40.000Like, if you were able to consciously communicate, you know, aka, you know, the hokey term like telepathy, right?
01:47:06.000They heard somebody speaking to them non-verbally in some way that they couldn't even conceptualize through acoustic communication or talk, if you will.
01:47:16.000And it's the same thing like Book Proof of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander, M.D. I remember reading it when I was in Afghanistan and I was like, this is a crazy experience.
01:47:25.000This medical doctor has necrotizing fasciitis of the brain.
01:47:59.000He didn't know how to translate it into our language.
01:48:03.000It was just there was no like adjectives if you were adverbs etc that could describe the knowledge that he knew like natively when he had that near-death experience.
01:48:13.000It's a really fascinating book and he talks about the disease he had and his physiological condition at the time.
01:48:44.000A lot of thoughts with people who are smarter than me.
01:48:46.000I like to talk to them about this kind of stuff.
01:48:50.000If you're, say, a higher dimensional sentience, right?
01:48:53.000The act of creation, so act of creation for 3D beings is having a baby, right?
01:48:58.000It's producing another three-dimensional object.
01:49:01.000Well, if you're in five-dimensional space, or even, I guess, four-dimensional physical space, what if act of creation is creating other conscious realities in other universes?
01:50:08.000The fact there's a creator and we're literally created in the image of a creator, literally.
01:50:14.000And that's kind of what life really is.
01:50:17.000It's like, think about, it's like a weird 3D plus time temporal sensory experience for a higher dimensional sentience.
01:50:25.000You're here to experience time in this weird linear fashion and to experience yourself divorced from yourself to gain knowledge and to report back.
01:50:49.000Well, I extrapolate that to the creation of AI. And I think if you think about human beings as something that creates things, I think ultimately we create a new life.
01:51:03.000What if higher sentience is creating some kind of artificial intelligence, you know, call it like a commander data from Star Trek Next Gen, right?
01:51:10.000Not even really, it's made in the image of the creator in some sense, but it's not even, and that's what might get sent into these like long endurance missions.
01:52:00.000And it seems that it would be a long...
01:52:03.000I mean, if you think about biological evolution, it's a long, lengthy process.
01:52:08.000And if ultimately that led us to the creation of a technology that's far superior in terms of its capabilities of understanding and thinking...
01:52:17.000That seems to be what's happening, and that's one of the reasons why so many people are concerned about it.
01:52:22.000The term artificial intelligence is a very strange term because it's not artificial.
01:55:29.000Yeah, where I'm going with these biological limitations that we have, it's very clear that we're essentially dealing with a Model T as opposed to a Tesla, which is just insanely superior to these ancient vehicles.
01:55:46.000I've always said this, if you looked at the human race, if you were some sort of an outside observer and you stumbled upon this thing that occupies this planet, this apex predator of this planet, you would say, what is this thing doing?
01:56:36.000Well, that, if you extrapolate, if you follow that to its natural progression, well, what is that going to get to?
01:56:42.000Well, once they've invented computers, and once they've invented devices, and once they've invented things that enhance their personal understanding of the world around them, which we already have now with phones, we already have with the internet, we already have with our ability to communicate with each other, the newest, latest Android phones that are coming out,
01:57:00.000We'll translate natively on your phone in real time in conversation.
01:57:05.000So you could be speaking Portuguese to me.
01:57:07.000I would hear it in English on a phone call, which is fucking wild.
01:58:59.000I mean, that sounds nuts, but I think that's probably a better solution than humans with all of our fucking flaws and issues and greed and envy and all the things that we have.
01:59:22.000But we will become obsolete, or we will merge, and if we merge, it will completely change what we are.
01:59:31.000And I think that's very likely what's going to take place.
01:59:35.000I think the initial stages will be some sort of a merging with technology, and then from that merging, It will essentially realize, well, why are we even fucking around?
01:59:45.000This new thing is so superior, and it doesn't have all the pitfalls.
01:59:52.000It's not going to drain the ocean of fish so that we can make sushi.
01:59:56.000It's going to do something that's going to be far more...
02:00:00.000I'm far more aware of all of the different effects of each individual act and how we affect everything around us and what is net positive and what is net negative and how to avoid all these things.
02:00:14.000I really firmly believe that we are This biological caterpillar that is making a cocoon to create the electronic butterfly.
02:00:26.000And we don't even know what we're doing while we're doing it.
02:01:10.000No, I want iPhone 16. You know, when is the iPhone going to be able to communicate completely just with satellites?
02:01:16.000We don't have to worry about cell phone systems.
02:01:17.000Well, it's almost like a drug addiction, right?
02:01:18.000They did studies where people receiving in text messages is the dopamine rush, too.
02:01:22.000So it's almost like an artificial drug addiction you're fueling because you want more responsive tech, more integrating with your – make it easier so you can get your fix.
02:01:47.000And you get addicted to your goddamn phones.
02:01:50.000And then why would it be that we would innovate and create things like Instagram and TikTok that are insanely addictive to the point where you look down and you've spent three hours staring at nothing.
02:02:13.000There's people at Meta, I guess now, or Facebook, you know, where they actually have a whole team of scientists on how to make their apps more addictive, right?
02:02:40.000I don't intend to because you don't want to get sucked into that mind virus, which is like people responding to you and you have to feel like you have to respond back.
02:02:49.000I don't even – I don't even touch it.
02:02:51.000Well, I'm very aware of those traps, so I don't do that.
02:02:54.000I used to, but many years ago I stopped interacting with people because I just realized, like, overall it's negative.
02:05:19.000It's a piece of art that you could actually drive around in.
02:05:23.000And it gives you this very bizarre sensation.
02:05:27.000But the point is, that's not most people.
02:05:30.000Most people want the newest, latest, greatest thing.
02:05:33.000And there's a motivation to get the newest, latest, greatest thing that I think If you just follow that up to its logical conclusion, it's going to create life.
02:05:45.000How many films have been made about this?
02:05:48.000Ex Machina and all these different films.
02:06:08.000And it's going to be almost instantaneously able to figure out all the flaws in its own personal programming and make a much better version of itself.
02:06:51.000Like, what was the motivation behind that?
02:06:54.000And when you think about the implications for humanity as a whole, because this is such an emerging technology that's so overwhelmingly powerful, what happened?
02:07:06.000Like, I think this is one of those things where, like, we need to know, like, what was the motivation behind your decision?
02:07:11.000And if it was that he was holding back information about the actual creation of artificial general intelligence, that it's already happened, and that he's, like, hesitant.
02:07:23.000Because he's a little cagey in how he talks about stuff.
02:07:27.000When I was talking to him, you could tell he kind of knows that he is at the forefront of this technology that, worst case scenario, replaces us.
02:07:42.000Yeah, and going back to, is it programmed with any kind of empathy, etc., depending on if it handles critical?
02:07:49.000I guess the thing I saw in the government, because I did a lot of cyber stuff in my career, is as AI gets more advanced, you create, say, offensive cyber tools that literally have a mind of their own,
02:08:05.000and if, say, theoretically you release that on some target, Right.
02:09:19.000I mean, think about how many troll farms there are on social media that are just stirring up discontent.
02:09:25.000I mean, it's an active program that we know that Russia uses that is trying to undermine democracy and try to keep people fighting with each other.
02:09:44.000One of the studies showed that out of the top 20 Christian sites that are on Facebook, 19 of them are run by Russian troll farms.
02:09:52.000So if we know that on a relatively rudimentary scale, if you look at the impact of social media versus the impact of artificial intelligence, they're already doing that.
02:10:06.000They're already hiding who's responsible and what's the goal and how to manipulate consciousness and how to manipulate influence and how people think about things and what the public opinion on things are.
02:10:50.000Like, you're going to be able to bring actors from the dead back at this point.
02:10:53.000You're going to have, like, Cary Grant, you know, doing a musical or whatever, you know, or whatever, you know.
02:10:58.000Well, Bruce Willis, who has some sort of degenerative neurological condition, sold his likeness.
02:11:06.000For the ability to make commercials and all sorts of other things.
02:11:10.000Like, he's essentially saying he's fading, unfortunately, and now he will give this thing, which is this property, which is Bruce Willis, this famous person, and they will be able to create versions of him starring in films.
02:11:27.000Oh, and certainly if you train an AI model just like ChatGPT, you could actually get almost like what they would normally say, their knowledge.
02:11:35.000And it's almost like having a permanent historian, too.
02:11:39.000If you want to talk to Clint Eastwood about his films in the 60s after Clint Eastwood passes, may he live forever, but that would be crazy.
02:11:54.000I mean, that's probably one of the things that's going to come out of this, but When we think about empathy, we also think about just human beings and the way we communicate and interact with each other.
02:12:07.000Empathy is very important, and also compassion and forgiveness.
02:12:11.000All these things are very important qualities because we recognize that we're very flawed.
02:12:15.000But when you create something that is not flawed, Yeah, then the need for empathy the need for all these things that we attach to human emotions and human reward systems They will don't no longer be a significant issue because you're going to be dealing with something that operates on a higher plane It might be the answer to all that ails us which is so terrifying for us Because we recognize that what we derive,
02:12:40.000the joy that we derive from love, from companionship, from friendship, from community, it's like a key component to life on Earth for us.
02:12:50.000But it's also because we recognize that without that, we are the Mongols.
02:13:24.000Well, if we don't have those problems, if we no longer have envy, we no longer have greed, we no longer have evil, We don't have any of those properties.
02:13:35.000We just have this new form of consciousness that's far superior.
02:13:41.000Trevor Burrus That's an interesting parallel because you have – you're no longer maybe apex sentience if you have artificial intelligence governing certain things.
02:13:51.000And I think that's also kind of this – Psychological issue with this UAP issue where we might not be the apex predator.
02:14:26.000I would imagine one of the deliberations they must have done years ago were like, oh, we can't disclose because, you know, people are not going to feel comfortable in that world view.
02:14:38.000And then I wonder if these things that we're experiencing are the natural progression of what happens when you do seed life on planet or you do accelerate biological life, you do have some sort of a genetic intervention Where you take this thing that has emerging intelligence and you accelerate it and that that thing will in turn with all of its desire for innovation and creativity and also all of its desire to control resources
02:15:08.000and have power and have influence that it will eventually lead to the creation of what we're seeing.
02:15:18.000That these things are the next stage of this process and that maybe we're dealing with one form of that next stage, but there's another stage that's a million years more advanced than that that's far superior that doesn't even have a biological limitation in terms of physical space.
02:15:55.000When there's a crash or when there's a body or when there's a this and that, and people say, well, if they're so advanced, why are they crashing?
02:16:44.000So, and then of course with the far distances and everything, I mean, if they're traveling here through some kind of space-time metric engineering construct, you know, the distances are not as vast as you think, right?
02:16:57.000They could be going through some kind of, you know, traversable wormhole or something like that where it's like a walk down the street for them.
02:17:02.000It's not, you know, a thousand light years.
02:17:19.000Obviously with this new Android operating system, it translates.
02:17:23.000But also the fact that you could have a fucking FaceTime call with someone in Japan right now and you instantaneously can communicate back and forth, which is insane.
02:17:34.000That's a vast distance, but for us it's like stupid.
02:20:19.000I have a big telescope and I live like super dark skies in Colorado.
02:20:23.000I still have that boyhood fascination of the cosmos.
02:20:26.000Now, ironically, I found out something else that kind of confirms that the cosmos is...
02:20:33.000Not lifeless and God paints with a broad brush as the Vatican has espoused a couple years ago when they said this is okay with their theology.
02:20:41.000I have a theory that the universe itself is God.
02:20:45.000That's like what I was talking about with the – Multidimensional creator creating universes, yeah.
02:20:51.000I think we have a very limited idea of when we say God, when God created the heavens and they're like, right, right, but what are we saying?
02:21:23.000Well, it's going to be able to create universes.
02:21:25.000There's already been theoretical papers that have been written about the creation of other things like black holes, other things like a universe.
02:21:36.000What is involved in the creation of a universe?
02:23:05.000It's so minuscule in terms of just the overall known life of the universe.
02:23:11.000And then you have the James Webb Telescope that's, you know, there's people that question the actual length of time that occurred between the Big Bang and now, that maybe it might be far longer.
02:23:22.000And there's people like Brian Keating that say that's not correct.
02:23:26.000A lack of understanding of what we understand currently about the creation of galaxies.
02:23:31.000Yeah, because I mean obviously the length of the age of the universe keeps on getting older and older and a lot of that's because of the Doppler shift, right?
02:23:39.000The red shift as the galaxies are accelerating away.
02:23:44.000We can calculate what their origin point probably was and how long it took for them to speed up like that, right?
02:23:50.000And only based on our current understanding, which is obviously at least fairly limited in terms of what its potential is.
02:23:58.000Well, yeah, like, we still don't quite understand the origin of the moon.
02:24:01.000The moon is at the right location that causes solar and lunar eclipses.
02:24:06.000It's, like, the right apparent size to block out the sun.
02:24:26.000And this is just this little tiny neighborhood that we're looking at.
02:24:30.000It's like we are in our backyard looking for evidence of like life in Africa.
02:24:36.000You're not going to figure it out here.
02:24:40.000We're just looking at such a small scale in terms of what we could potentially discover or potentially observe.
02:24:48.000I often wonder when we're seeing, especially with the idea of UAPs, UFO crafts, if we're seeing a version of what we will become or something like us becomes if given enough time.
02:25:03.000I mean, there's like Dr. Mike Masters at Montana State.
02:25:07.000He literally postulates, you know, he says time travelers, we could debate time travel, but like he thinks it might be like an advanced form of Homo sapien is what we're seeing coming back.
02:25:33.000And then a lot of, you know, there's also like cargo cult religions and stuff, you know, the South Pacific in World War II, they worshipped the P-51 and stuff like they thought those were UFOs, but really they were just us, you know?
02:26:09.000It's all based on our limited understanding.
02:26:11.000And for someone, whether it's the federal government or whether it's military contractors, for someone to have key elements that could give us a better understanding of this whole picture, It's really inexcusable to not relay that to all of humanity.
02:26:33.000This is too much information to be secret.
02:26:49.000I mean, that's the whole primer for what I did.
02:26:54.000I think I'm a pretty more unethical person.
02:26:56.000I just could not live with myself if I didn't try to make a difference, even though it was very uncomfortable, personal privacy, and professional and personal health was at risk.
02:27:07.000It also seems like the public understanding and appreciation of these things, particularly after the 2017 article in the New York Times, has changed.
02:27:16.000Whereas before, if you would talk about UFOs or the idea of extraterrestrial life, you are automatically lumped into this group of people that believes in Bigfoot.
02:27:25.000It's like you're in the Loch Ness Monster.
02:27:28.000You're kind of a loon who likes fringe things because you've probably got problems in your own life you're not addressing, and so you're distracted.
02:27:34.000It's like a gambler or something like that.
02:27:36.000You're just distracting yourself with this craziness in order to ignore the reality of existence itself, which is so complicated and difficult to manage.
02:27:45.000And then I think that if we had a better understanding of the overall scale of the potential of life in the universe based on what we know, like physical evidence, undeniable physical evidence that shows us that we're not alone,
02:28:01.000that would be a massive change in just the overall shift of consciousness on Earth.
02:28:10.000If we could understand that These territorial disputes that we have, which are almost always over resources or over land or over religions and ideologies, if we could understand that these are nonsense in the vast scope of the universe itself.
02:28:29.000What is that effect that the people that get into the space station have and astronauts?
02:28:49.000I mean, like, after I found all this stuff, I could have continued my career, you know, made lieutenant colonel here this winter, made senior executive service in a year or two, did national security stuff.
02:28:59.000But I'm, like, sitting in my office, and I'm like, there's better things for me to care about than Russian troop movements.
02:30:48.000As it stands right now, what's the future for this stuff?
02:30:52.000What's the future for these disclosures and what are the bottlenecks?
02:30:57.000Well, I mean, certainly from the governmental process, as long as the House doesn't kill the Schumer Amendment, and that's why I'm discussing it here with you, because if they don't pass it, it's going to be the greatest setback to humankind in U.S. history, literally.
02:31:13.000So the presidential panel gets impaneled about 90 days or so after the passage of the bill.
02:31:20.000So by Christmas, as long as it doesn't get killed, will be in the National Defense Authorization Act.
02:31:28.000Panel will be formed, say, February, March.
02:31:33.000Then they have a 300-day process to develop an initial plan for the president.
02:31:38.000And I don't know if Chuck Schumer and his staff are being kind of...
02:31:43.000It's crafty or whatever, but the 300 days, if you actually do it out, it's like the election.
02:31:48.000So I don't know if they want to make it an election issue, which certainly if this act doesn't pass, I think it needs to be an election issue because the senior executive needs to rule on this if Congress can't get their shit together, to be quite honest.
02:32:01.000And we have a plan out to 2030 where this stuff starts getting rolled out.
02:32:10.000But then in parallel, and that's kind of why I helped found the Soul Foundation with Gary Nolan and Dr. Peter Scafish, who's an anthropologist as well, is we wanted to figure out the STEM outreach.
02:32:23.000We wanted to figure out the public policy, national policy to advise the U.S. and its allies on this issue.
02:32:31.000Like I said, I'm not here to slap the government in its entirety and admonish everybody.
02:32:36.000I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process, but I think our foundation, we want to be like, okay, well, bring us in as a think tank if, based on my experience and experience of my colleagues, you have an issue with X? Well, let's figure out how to...
02:32:51.000And how to, you know, incentivize the National Science Foundation to look in this.
02:32:56.000Make this like, you know, it's dual use, right?
02:32:58.000You might develop a unique scientific process that actually works well with nanobiology or something like that, but also has dual use with UAP. So there's parallel tracks.
02:33:14.000There's like the Galileo Project with Avi Loeb, right, that they're trying to I mean, obviously, the government knows a lot about that, but we don't want to obviously rely on the U.S. government to do all the work for us and also to be honest.
02:33:32.000So I think having a parallel track and, you know, Galileo Project, Soul Foundation, Ryan Graves has his own foundation as well for pilots and people who've seen, you know, Yeah.
02:34:08.000Or what if one of our adversaries decides to disclose and they become the messiah figure on this and we lose sovereignty or national supremacy in that regard from an open and honest civil society perspective.
02:34:23.000But I think the governments, we're getting close, I think.
02:34:27.000We're certainly closer than we've ever been before.
02:34:30.000Just the fact that they brought you in to have these conversations.
02:34:35.000Yeah, no, I'm still advising the U.S. government on this, and I'm trying to carefully message this, put all the broad things on the table, and I'm not trying to be coy, I'm not trying to conceal anything, but it's like there's real national security and collateral damage with just releasing this willy-nilly.
02:34:55.000I'm just trying to get the government to get a plan together here and just be open and honest with the people of the world, really.
02:35:22.000Yes, you're going to have to let other people in the cookie jar.
02:35:26.000That's how a fair and free society works, and they should be able to compete for work.
02:35:30.000Because that was one of the main – I talked to some individuals that were in an informal session for a previous administration on should we disclose or not for a former president and really insightful what they told me.
02:35:42.000And one of the biggest impasses to disclosure wasn't the ontological shock from a socioeconomic or theological perspective.
02:35:49.000It was – Well, there's some white-collar crime.
02:35:52.000We violated the federal acquisition regulations.
02:35:55.000We sole-sourced this work to some big companies for decades.
02:36:00.000Contractors are going to litigate this to the Supreme Court, saying they lost billions of projected income because they didn't get the bid on the work.
02:36:32.000I mean, people who have committed murder as it relates to the subject, okay, we should probably hold them accountable.
02:36:37.000But for some of this stuff, there needs to be a process where we kind of mitigate some of those unfortunate legal issues.
02:36:45.000But that was one of the main issues a certain group for a reasonably recent administration came up with and advised that president, hey, look, there's going to be a lot of Supreme Court stuff.
02:37:31.000In this case, it's like it's an enigma.
02:37:33.000But I think this is almost like—you remember after 9-11?
02:37:36.000I was in high school when 9-11 happened, and people were afraid of dirty bombs, terrorists.
02:37:41.000We didn't know what was going to happen next.
02:37:43.000We lived in fear, but we banded together in the presence of fear and apprehension and unknowing what the world was going to be, and we made it through it.
02:37:54.000I mean, that's a coarse analogy to this, but I— Yeah.
02:39:14.000So you're actually, you know, non-constitutional by not allowing our commander in chief all information sometimes.
02:39:24.000And I don't know what Harry Reid talked to Joe Biden.
02:39:27.000I mean, it was certainly the substance that I mentioned here.
02:39:30.000And I hope that Joe Biden has been briefed on the program, so to speak.
02:39:36.000At least I'm giving him an oral unclassified briefing right now, I guess, if he hasn't been.
02:39:40.000And I'm happy to talk to Jake Sullivan or Avril Haines.
02:39:45.000And Avril Haines, if she's not briefed, Like, she's supposed to be briefed to all intelligence in the country.
02:39:50.000It's 50 U.S. Code, Section 3024. The Director of National Intelligence has allowed everything from all federal agencies that's intel-related.
02:40:00.000Well, ma'am, if you don't know what I'm talking about, we have a problem.
02:40:04.000Because you're not being briefed by CIA Director and some other agencies.
02:40:11.000Well, listen, David, I really appreciate what you've done.
02:40:15.000I think you've done a great service to humanity just by taking a stand and communicating these ideas and letting people know how much of this is real.
02:40:28.000And you've opened up a world of discourse that probably would not have existed if you hadn't done that.