The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2091 - Diana Walsh Pasulka

00:00:12.000 It's a scary podcast for me because I feel like you're because I know a lot of the things that you've said and I've related to them and I've said okay this makes sense.

00:00:21.000 Why is that scary?

00:00:23.000 Okay, so it's scary because it's not consensus reality.

00:00:27.000 And, you know, because it's not consensus reality, we could talk about it over hot chocolate near a fire or something.

00:00:37.000 But here we're talking about it and lots of people are going to be listening.

00:00:40.000 Yes.

00:00:41.000 So that is somewhat...

00:00:42.000 Yeah, that's the hurdle that we all have to get over.

00:00:46.000 And the good thing about this is it really is just us talking.

00:00:50.000 Right.

00:00:51.000 You know, and there are a lot of people that are going to listen, but they're just people too.

00:00:55.000 That's true.

00:00:56.000 And they've probably had these experiences.

00:00:58.000 Some of them have.

00:00:59.000 Yeah.

00:01:00.000 The experiences that are available through psychedelics, I've always wondered.

00:01:06.000 I mean the thing that has always struck me about the UFO experience, particularly the abduction experience, is that it always happens when people are asleep.

00:01:17.000 It always happens at night.

00:01:19.000 It either happens on the road when people are tired and it's late at night or it happens like, why does it have to happen at night? 0.98

00:01:25.000 The universe doesn't give a shit where the sun is in position to the planet. 0.78

00:01:32.000 That doesn't make any sense that all these UFO abduction experiences would happen only when the sun is on the other side. 0.99

00:01:39.000 That's so dumb. 0.99

00:01:40.000 It makes no sense. 1.00

00:01:42.000 It's literally, it's such an egocentric, Earth-centric perspective.

00:01:48.000 And not even Earth-centric.

00:01:51.000 Hemispherical-centric, right?

00:01:53.000 It depends on where the sun is in position to the Earth.

00:01:57.000 For that to be the only time that UFOs come... 0.86

00:02:01.000 I was always like, this seems like horseshit. 0.95

00:02:04.000 There's something about it that seems like horseshit. 0.97

00:02:06.000 But there's also something about it that seems real.

00:02:08.000 When you listen to Betty and Barney Hill, when they're talking, boy, that sounds like people talking about a real thing.

00:02:15.000 Boy, that sounds like a real experience.

00:02:18.000 It really does.

00:02:20.000 These people like the Whitley Strybers, these people that talk about these experiences that happen at night, we know for a fact that when you are sleeping, your brain is producing endogenous psychedelic chemicals.

00:02:34.000 We have no idea why.

00:02:36.000 We have no idea what the purpose of those things are.

00:02:38.000 We have no idea what the quantity is.

00:02:40.000 We used to think until recently, they weren't even exactly sure like where it was being produced, but now through Strassman's work, And through the work of the Cottonwood Research Foundation, the people that do those DMT studies, they know that now your brain is producing this.

00:02:58.000 And so is your brain – is it producing a chemical gateway into another dimension?

00:03:06.000 And is that why these people are experiencing these abduction – air quote, abduction experiences?

00:03:13.000 These encounters, let's say encounters, is that why they're happening at night?

00:03:18.000 Is that why they're happening while they're lying in bed?

00:03:19.000 Because that seems to make way more sense.

00:03:22.000 Yeah, that's a great question.

00:03:24.000 I can talk a little bit about this.

00:03:26.000 Please.

00:03:26.000 Okay, so I think that— I think we're starting weird.

00:03:30.000 Yeah.

00:03:30.000 Can we just start with how did you get involved in this?

00:03:34.000 Okay.

00:03:34.000 And please just tell people your background.

00:03:36.000 Okay, sure.

00:03:37.000 So I'm a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina in Wilmington, and I grew up in California.

00:03:43.000 And I've always been interested in these experiences, but religion.

00:03:48.000 And also I grew up, I was going to graduate school during the dot-com boom.

00:03:53.000 So I saw how technology was changing everything.

00:03:56.000 Our schools were the first to adopt computers and that type of thing.

00:03:59.000 So what I did was I was very interested in – I was working.

00:04:05.000 Your parents, you tell them you want to study religion and they're like, why not be a doctor, right?

00:04:09.000 So I was going to college, but I kept taking courses in religion and philosophy.

00:04:15.000 And when I got out, I got a job doing technology and things like that.

00:04:18.000 And I made all right money, but I still read about religion and philosophy.

00:04:22.000 So I figured if I could get scholarships to continue, that I would.

00:04:27.000 And I kept getting scholarships, and that's how I got my PhD in religion.

00:04:32.000 In religious studies, by the way, we actually were not ministers or anything like that.

00:04:35.000 We don't advocate for any religious tradition.

00:04:37.000 We study them.

00:04:38.000 And since most people in the world are religious in some way, it's a good thing to know.

00:04:43.000 But how did I get into studying UFOs?

00:04:46.000 So I studied Christian history, and that's what I did for a long time until I was what's called a full professor.

00:04:52.000 You can't go any higher.

00:04:53.000 You're a full professor.

00:04:54.000 That's it.

00:04:57.000 I studied these things called ascent narratives.

00:05:00.000 So ascent narratives are when people levitate in the Christian tradition.

00:05:05.000 People either levitate or they see things that they call angels or demons and things like this.

00:05:10.000 And I always studied them from a historical perspective.

00:05:13.000 And I found that going through looking at these ascent narratives through the historical record at the Vatican, actually, I kept coming across aerial phenomena in the historical records from 1000 years ago, from 500 years ago, from very recently.

00:05:29.000 And I recognized that this was happening in UFO literature.

00:05:34.000 And so I started to look at abductions and UFO sightings and things like that.

00:05:38.000 And I wanted to do a cross-cultural analysis of this.

00:05:43.000 And that was in 2012. And that's how I got into this.

00:05:47.000 I just want to point out that not all abductions happen in your sleep.

00:05:52.000 A lot of abductions actually happen in daylight.

00:05:55.000 But I do agree with you that something's happening in your brain and you're perceiving something and you called it, is there some type of mental gateway?

00:06:04.000 And I think there's absolutely a mental gateway.

00:06:08.000 Does this discount that this is objective of us?

00:06:12.000 Like, you know, the question is, is this something subjective or is this something objective of us?

00:06:17.000 My opinion at this point is it's something that is objective of us.

00:06:23.000 There's something that we're accessing.

00:06:25.000 And I don't think it's within our space-time reality, to tell you the truth.

00:06:31.000 So you think it's from somewhere else?

00:06:34.000 I do, but that doesn't, I mean, it doesn't have to be a location, you know, a geography.

00:06:40.000 Right.

00:06:41.000 That's where it gets weird.

00:06:42.000 It gets totally weird, but so does quantum physics.

00:06:45.000 Quantum physics is totally weird.

00:06:46.000 It's the weirdest stuff ever.

00:06:47.000 Yeah.

00:06:48.000 And it's completely accepted that you could have something that exists in one place and also in another place.

00:06:55.000 Now it is.

00:06:55.000 Now it's completely accepted.

00:06:57.000 Yeah.

00:06:58.000 The Nobel Prize in, what was it, 2022, was about that.

00:07:02.000 Yeah, which is like, what are you saying?

00:07:04.000 You're saying witchcraft's real?

00:07:05.000 Like, what are you saying?

00:07:07.000 Magic is real?

00:07:08.000 Quantum physics is the nuttiest stuff of all time.

00:07:11.000 I've had a hundred people explain it to me.

00:07:13.000 I don't get it still.

00:07:14.000 Yeah.

00:07:14.000 Well, see, okay, so you were talking about accessing this space.

00:07:19.000 And if I can go back to something you were talking about, and I'm going to say this.

00:07:24.000 So what I found was – and I had this experience too when I was around 13 years old.

00:07:28.000 I felt like the world was going to end.

00:07:31.000 I felt like there was going to be some kind of war.

00:07:34.000 And it was a visceral feeling.

00:07:35.000 It wasn't something that – it was something that made me depressed as a child.

00:07:40.000 And it was real.

00:07:43.000 I believed it was going to happen.

00:07:44.000 And I believed it was going to happen at any time.

00:07:47.000 Well, this – after studying religion and studying – by the way, this kind of prompted me into studying religion – And recognizing that, you know, if you look at, say, Christianity or even other religions, people had ideas that the world was going to end and extinction events have happened and things like that.

00:08:05.000 So it could very well be that information like this is coming to us, but it's out of our space time.

00:08:11.000 So to us, it seems like it's going to happen now.

00:08:14.000 Because our sense is of linear time, right?

00:08:17.000 So if we get a feeling, and it's not from any of the input that we're getting, like our people telling us this is actually going to happen, the news telling us this is actually going to happen, but it's coming to us as this feeling that you and I were just talking about, it could be coming from that space that we've just identified as people are talking about.

00:08:39.000 And yeah, I think that we're at the very beginning of...

00:08:44.000 Doing a taxonomy or, you know, looking at this space in terms of the scientists that you just referenced and people that, you know, I think that actually people have, you know, indigenous cultures talk about this space.

00:08:57.000 They have language about this space.

00:08:59.000 I talked about this in Encounters that, you know, religious traditions do talk about these spaces, but in secular culture, we've lost that language.

00:09:08.000 Well, it is interesting that that language exists when you're discussing things like quantum physics because that is a language of like – it's a bizarre, non-tangible,

00:09:25.000 impossible to understand to the layperson when you're explaining that these things are all interacting with each other without physical contact.

00:09:35.000 Like, what do you mean?

00:09:37.000 Like, what are you saying?

00:09:38.000 Like, can you show me these things?

00:09:40.000 Are there photos of them?

00:09:41.000 No, we're just drawing.

00:09:42.000 We're writing it down on paper.

00:09:43.000 We're pretty sure we have these equations and we know what it is.

00:09:46.000 Like, what?

00:09:47.000 Yeah.

00:09:48.000 Yeah.

00:09:48.000 Like, why am I supposed to believe you?

00:09:50.000 Because you guys are PhDs?

00:09:52.000 Like, what?

00:09:52.000 This is nuts.

00:09:53.000 But because this is like a field of science, this is a field of study that's universally accepted, We've given them a pass to talk about crazy stuff.

00:10:07.000 But if you want to talk about crazy things in terms of encountering some sort of thing, some entity, some consciousness that exists in an alternative realm, That has access to this realm occasionally,

00:10:26.000 or perhaps that you can transcend your normal state of consciousness and access this other realm occasionally through some methods, whether it's through meditation, through psychedelic trips,

00:10:42.000 through something, near-death experiences.

00:10:45.000 Something happens that perturbs the normal state of reality and you have Brief access to this transcendent experience that everyone has talked about.

00:10:56.000 All of the great prophets, all of the great saints and religious figures have talked about from the beginning of written history.

00:11:07.000 Yeah.

00:11:08.000 So I think that it's not just that we give those physics guys a pass and girls, okay?

00:11:16.000 We just don't...

00:11:16.000 What they produce actually creates our world, right?

00:11:22.000 The computers we look at and the technologies we use, even the structures we live in.

00:11:28.000 And so this is what prompted me to go back into our historical record and look at the writings of Plato again.

00:11:37.000 And some of these people that you're talking about, like the great minds, right?

00:11:42.000 And I recognize that, say, Plato, who writes about his mentor, Socrates, who's, by the way, killed by Athens, the town he lives in, not the town, but the state he lives in.

00:11:56.000 And he's executed for being an atheist, by the way. 0.94

00:12:03.000 And if you look at what he's talking about, he's actually talking about this space.

00:12:06.000 He's actually talking about having a vision of something that we can't see.

00:12:12.000 And he calls it the good.

00:12:13.000 And he says it's the best thing.

00:12:16.000 He says it makes you do things that are just.

00:12:20.000 And you don't do them because they're the right thing to do.

00:12:22.000 You do them because you really want to do them.

00:12:24.000 And so to me, this is – I thought this was fascinating.

00:12:27.000 So I went back and I recognized that he was what's called a math realist.

00:12:31.000 So he believed that – and he was one of the first people – well, not just him, but people were talking about the 300s before the Common Era, so many, many, many years ago.

00:12:44.000 He's already identifying these things called platonic solids that now we can prove exist, but we weren't able to prove them.

00:12:53.000 So he was using, and he even has this language too, Joe.

00:12:57.000 He has this language.

00:12:59.000 He says that we can actually...

00:13:01.000 We can actually perceive these through our minds, but it's not normal intellect.

00:13:07.000 It's not your normal abstract thinking, but it's a type of thinking.

00:13:12.000 And he relates it to protocols, like physical protocols.

00:13:16.000 Like, did you know he was a wrestler?

00:13:18.000 No, I didn't.

00:13:19.000 Yeah.

00:13:19.000 Oh, I did know that.

00:13:20.000 Yeah.

00:13:21.000 In fact, his name even means that he's really not just a wrestler, but an awesome wrestler.

00:13:27.000 So...

00:13:27.000 Socrates, that name?

00:13:28.000 No, no, Plato.

00:13:29.000 Oh, sorry.

00:13:30.000 Yeah.

00:13:31.000 These guys were all physical.

00:13:33.000 They were all...

00:13:34.000 It was basically this like philosophy...

00:13:36.000 Almost like a fight club, I think.

00:13:38.000 These guys, you know, they were like...

00:13:40.000 They were wrestlers.

00:13:42.000 And, you know, they believed that this was good.

00:13:44.000 They believed that these protocols helped them...

00:13:52.000 So what was the methodology behind that?

00:13:55.000 Was it the breaking down of the normal states of consciousness through rigorous exercise and exertion?

00:14:02.000 That's my opinion.

00:14:04.000 Like a runner's high.

00:14:05.000 Yeah, that's my opinion.

00:14:07.000 Yeah.

00:14:07.000 So when I talk about it, because I like to teach my students about this, because I honestly think that this is what progresses civilization, this kind of thing.

00:14:15.000 So I think when I did American Cosmic, which was the first book about UFOs, again, which I never thought I'd be studying, I encountered this man, Tyler, and he And he works for the Space Force and he's been working for the Space Force since the whole space shuttle program,

00:14:35.000 okay?

00:14:35.000 And he's a special kind of person.

00:14:38.000 He's a mission controller but he does a lot of other things too.

00:14:40.000 But he's also a multimillionaire space rocket scientist.

00:14:45.000 I mean just so strange.

00:14:48.000 And I called him Tyler after the character in Fight Club because that's who he reminded me of.

00:14:53.000 He reminded me of that character.

00:14:55.000 In Fight Club because he had this—first of all, he has more than 44 patents, and they're all related to space.

00:15:02.000 And the Space Force has a special place for him.

00:15:07.000 Like, he's special, right?

00:15:09.000 What I found was that he was practicing these types of protocols.

00:15:12.000 I called them protocols because they reminded me of Plato and monastic traditions, the traditions of monks and things.

00:15:18.000 So he would make sure that he got sunshine.

00:15:22.000 He would make sure that he got plenty of sleep.

00:15:29.000 We're good to go.

00:15:53.000 Calculations.

00:15:54.000 He could receive information.

00:15:55.000 He could receive things and then he could gather a group of scientists and he wouldn't tell them where he came from because he honestly thought they were coming from these things outside of space-time, kind of like ETs or something, off-planet intelligences.

00:16:11.000 Which Tesla also believed.

00:16:12.000 And the people who started our own Space Force believed it.

00:16:16.000 So this isn't common knowledge.

00:16:18.000 That's what I found.

00:16:19.000 It's like a lot of people aren't – they don't know this history of the American Space Force and the Russian Space Force.

00:16:24.000 Very much the same.

00:16:26.000 These people were doing these things.

00:16:28.000 And this allowed them – you see this in sports, right?

00:16:31.000 So people – I was just using this example in a class yesterday.

00:16:34.000 I saw this basketball game two or three years ago with Steph Curry.

00:16:38.000 And the way they were playing, it was almost as if there was an emergent phenomenon that was bigger than each of the people because they somehow anticipated what the other guy was going to do.

00:16:50.000 And I used to do sports, and I know that this is something that can be done.

00:16:55.000 There's a flow state, right?

00:16:56.000 And I think that this is what Plato was trying to get his group into through these protocols.

00:17:02.000 Yeah.

00:17:03.000 Well, that makes sense.

00:17:05.000 And one of the things that happens in flow state is that you stop being there.

00:17:09.000 That's right.

00:17:10.000 Yeah, it's not you.

00:17:12.000 Yeah.

00:17:12.000 And you're just experiencing this thing.

00:17:14.000 Totally, yeah.

00:17:15.000 Yeah.

00:17:16.000 You experienced it on stage, doing stand-up.

00:17:20.000 I imagine that.

00:17:21.000 When you do it right.

00:17:22.000 Yeah.

00:17:22.000 When you get it right, you're on a ride.

00:17:24.000 Like you're just like sort of like making sure that, okay, feed this into the machine and go.

00:17:31.000 And it goes.

00:17:32.000 And you're sort of like you're in tune with what you're saying, but you're almost outside of yourself.

00:17:38.000 That's exactly right.

00:17:40.000 And you know, there is science that shows that this is the case.

00:17:43.000 Right.

00:17:44.000 With brainwaves.

00:17:45.000 Yeah.

00:17:46.000 Yeah.

00:17:46.000 The problem is that when Joe's out there on stage, they're not going to hook you up to an MRI, right?

00:17:54.000 They can't do that kind of thing.

00:17:55.000 Because when it's happening, it's happening spontaneously.

00:17:58.000 It just happens.

00:17:59.000 And no one can actually predict when it's going to happen.

00:18:02.000 But you hope that it happens.

00:18:03.000 And also if they did hook you up to it, you would also be aware that you're being monitored and would change the state.

00:18:08.000 And you'd lose it.

00:18:08.000 Yeah, you'd lose it.

00:18:09.000 It's like when you're in a lucid dream and you go, oh my god, I'm in a lucid dream and then wake up.

00:18:14.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:18:14.000 Damn it. 1.00

00:18:15.000 I've had that happen so many times. 1.00

00:18:17.000 I'm like, wow.

00:18:18.000 I know there's a way to...

00:18:21.000 Facilitate lucid dreams. 0.75

00:18:23.000 I know there's a study behind it, but for whatever reason, it seems so stupid that I've never done it, but I've never even had the desire to do it. 0.98

00:18:31.000 I just want it to come to me when it comes to me, which is dumb. 0.96

00:18:36.000 Not necessarily. 0.96

00:18:37.000 I respect that.

00:18:38.000 Yeah, but part of me doesn't.

00:18:39.000 Part of me is like, you're just lazy.

00:18:41.000 Why don't you just go start the practice and study it and figure out how to make it happen more often?

00:18:48.000 But for whatever reason, I have zero desire to do that.

00:18:52.000 I don't know why.

00:18:54.000 There might be some wisdom there.

00:18:56.000 I don't know.

00:18:58.000 I go back and forth with whether or not it's laziness.

00:19:02.000 I don't know what it is.

00:19:04.000 But there's obviously a fascinating aspect to lucid dreaming, to what is going on there.

00:19:12.000 How are you managing this weird thing that for most of us, you wake up and you go, God, what the hell was that?

00:19:20.000 Why was Godzilla in my dream?

00:19:22.000 Why was I on a skateboard?

00:19:24.000 It's just like weirdness to it.

00:19:26.000 And then there's people that try to interpret that with far too much confidence.

00:19:32.000 Yes, I think so too.

00:19:33.000 I think so too.

00:19:34.000 So in Tibet, there's a Tibetan dream yoga.

00:19:38.000 And that's what they do.

00:19:40.000 They basically teach you how to do, and you have to have a teacher, by the way, because they say it can be dangerous.

00:19:46.000 Dangerous.

00:19:47.000 Yeah, so I think that's probably why you think you're not doing it, because I don't think you're lazy, frankly.

00:19:52.000 Like, I know the kinds of things you do.

00:19:53.000 I know that's not part.

00:19:55.000 Yeah, but I am lazy.

00:19:57.000 That's what's crazy.

00:19:58.000 Well, I really am.

00:19:59.000 I'm lazy, but I'm disciplined.

00:20:01.000 Okay.

00:20:02.000 I'm both of those things.

00:20:03.000 Like, I do all the things that I'm supposed to do, but God, it's a sludge.

00:20:08.000 It's a struggle.

00:20:09.000 It's like, ugh.

00:20:10.000 But I always do them.

00:20:11.000 Mm-hmm.

00:20:12.000 Okay.

00:20:13.000 Well, you'd be up for Play-Dohs.

00:20:16.000 He'd invite you to his school.

00:20:17.000 Yeah.

00:20:18.000 The only time things are not a struggle is when I was competing.

00:20:24.000 When I was competing, then my discipline wasn't a struggle.

00:20:28.000 Then it was an obsession.

00:20:30.000 So it was like people would say, God, he's so disciplined.

00:20:32.000 Like, no, I'm mentally ill. 0.95

00:20:34.000 I'm crazy. 0.97

00:20:35.000 Yeah, I understand that.

00:20:37.000 There's a giant difference between discipline.

00:20:39.000 Like Mike Tyson said this on the podcast.

00:20:41.000 He said, discipline is doing something you hate, but doing it like you love it.

00:20:45.000 That's right.

00:20:46.000 Yeah.

00:20:47.000 So when you love it, it's not really discipline.

00:20:49.000 No, it's not.

00:20:50.000 It's obsession.

00:20:51.000 Yeah.

00:20:52.000 There's a different thing to that.

00:20:53.000 That's what I was telling you about when I saw your picture out there of Jimi Hendrix.

00:20:58.000 Yeah.

00:20:59.000 And when I was a kid, I was an artist.

00:21:01.000 I really liked to do art.

00:21:03.000 And I remember the first time I became obsessed was when I was doing this drawing of Jimi Hendrix.

00:21:13.000 And it went on for about a week.

00:21:17.000 And my parents were like, what are you doing?

00:21:19.000 And I was just obsessed with getting it correct.

00:21:21.000 It had to be absolutely correct.

00:21:23.000 And I did get it corrected.

00:21:24.000 It was pretty amazing.

00:21:25.000 Do you have it?

00:21:26.000 No, I always give my stuff away.

00:21:28.000 Do you have a photo of it or anything?

00:21:29.000 No, no, no.

00:21:30.000 This was like pre-cell phones.

00:21:32.000 So I gave it to my best friend.

00:21:34.000 Oh, that's cool.

00:21:35.000 And I don't regret it.

00:21:37.000 That's cool.

00:21:37.000 Yeah.

00:21:38.000 But I mean it was the experience though that was the best part of it.

00:21:42.000 Yeah.

00:21:43.000 The reason why this podcast is called The Joe Rogan Experience is because I think Jimi Hendrix is a religious figure.

00:21:50.000 He is.

00:21:51.000 He absolutely is. 1.00

00:21:52.000 I think – I mean the guy died at 27, which when I was 27 I was a fucking moron. 0.99

00:21:58.000 I had never done anything good. 0.99

00:22:00.000 This guy had transcended the normal boundaries of what music was and had tapped into something, whatever it was.

00:22:12.000 But when you listen to Voodoo Child, to this day, I've listened to that song thousands of times, but if I'm on my way to go do something cool, And I listen to that song like loud in my car.

00:22:25.000 He tapped into something that was just out of this realm.

00:22:34.000 Inaccessible to the average person that plays a guitar.

00:22:37.000 Inaccessible to the average artist.

00:22:39.000 He hit some crazy vibration.

00:22:43.000 And I've always got that feeling when I listen to his stuff.

00:22:46.000 It's always like moved me in a very weird way where I'm just completely captivated, like immersed in the sounds, immersed in his music.

00:22:58.000 Me too.

00:23:00.000 So he, I think he, well, he knew that he was doing that.

00:23:04.000 So he, as you know, I'm sure you know this, but, you know, he had a guitar when he was five.

00:23:09.000 And he was so good at it.

00:23:11.000 He was immediately like, he streamed sacred information through his music.

00:23:19.000 And he knew he did.

00:23:20.000 He called it his electric church.

00:23:23.000 Yeah.

00:23:24.000 Yeah.

00:23:24.000 So he knew he did that.

00:23:26.000 And how incredible.

00:23:29.000 And yes, we can hear it.

00:23:30.000 And I think probably part of the reason I felt that when I listened to his music, and I somehow put that into that picture, that drawing that I made.

00:23:45.000 And it was a beautiful experience.

00:23:47.000 And that was, you know, it sounds so strange, but that's part of the reason why I was interested in studying religion and things like that, because of that experience.

00:23:57.000 Yeah, that you're tapping into something that's higher than normal consciousness.

00:24:02.000 Yes, and it's pretty cool.

00:24:05.000 It's exactly what Plato said it was.

00:24:08.000 You do it for its own sake.

00:24:10.000 You don't do it for anything else.

00:24:12.000 You do it because of it.

00:24:13.000 You don't do it because after this I'm going to make up a lot of money.

00:24:16.000 Or after this it'll make my parents happy.

00:24:20.000 You don't do it for those reasons.

00:24:22.000 You do it for in and of itself.

00:24:23.000 Well, the people that I know that do do it for those reasons, I'm gonna be famous, I'm gonna be this, I'm gonna be that, they never make it.

00:24:29.000 There's something about it.

00:24:30.000 They just don't.

00:24:31.000 They just don't.

00:24:32.000 Maybe some of them will become pop stars, like someone will plug them into the right songwriter and the right producer and they'll figure it out, but it'll never be transcendent.

00:24:42.000 It might be catchy, it might be okay, but it's not Hendrix.

00:24:47.000 No.

00:24:48.000 No.

00:24:49.000 Yeah.

00:24:50.000 That kind of what we like to call genius.

00:24:53.000 Like, what is that?

00:24:56.000 But it's not.

00:24:57.000 I mean, clearly it's him.

00:25:00.000 He's a vessel.

00:25:01.000 He's a receiver, an antenna, whatever he is.

00:25:05.000 But he's getting something from a higher state.

00:25:09.000 No doubt.

00:25:10.000 And the wildest thing with people, what I always want to tell people about Hendrix and a lot of the particularly impactful people from the 1960s is that you have to understand how different the 60s were from the 50s.

00:25:27.000 Like, the difference between 2014 and 2024 is nil.

00:25:33.000 There's very little difference other than the ubiquitous Technology, AI, things that are much more powerful than they ever were before, the impact of social media.

00:25:43.000 But there was an impact of social media even 10 years ago, right?

00:25:46.000 There's something...

00:25:49.000 About the 60s that were very different than the 50s and I connected to psychedelic use because all of those people were doing psychedelics all of them all those transcended people all the Beatles when the Beatles from their early days to the psychedelic days let's say completely different band like completely different style of music yes yeah that's right yeah completely different impact there was something about it what what what had happened in the 1960s was A stunning revolution in

00:26:19.000 culture.

00:26:19.000 And it's hard for us to understand it because we weren't teenagers when that was happening.

00:26:25.000 I wasn't even born when Hendrix was in his prime or it was just a baby.

00:26:32.000 When you listen to that now, it's hard to put it into context of how revolutionary that was.

00:26:39.000 I think you're right.

00:26:40.000 For most people, I think that's – unless you live through it.

00:26:44.000 Yeah.

00:26:45.000 And that's also the terrifying aspect of what government can do because through the sweeping psychedelics act of 1970, they made everything illegal.

00:26:55.000 And they did it to squash dissent.

00:26:57.000 They did it to stop the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement.

00:27:00.000 And they did it so that they could arrest all these people that were involved in all these groups because all of them were involved in drugs.

00:27:11.000 And so they figured, well, this is the best way to just make everything – it's obviously people are doing acid and ruining our country.

00:27:17.000 Let's make everything illegal and then lock everybody up that does it and then you get the 80s.

00:27:25.000 And the 80s is like this confused child that was raised improperly, was then cast out into the world with a distorted sense of values.

00:27:35.000 That was like expressing these values in like some of the most clumsy and goofy art human beings have ever done.

00:27:42.000 And the drugs changed.

00:27:45.000 Yeah.

00:27:46.000 Right.

00:27:46.000 They became ego-driven drugs.

00:27:48.000 The worst kind of drugs.

00:27:49.000 So, you know, it's really interesting because that wouldn't be – the 60s wouldn't be the only culture that's informed by psychedelics, right?

00:27:57.000 Or entheogens, you know, as they're called in Native American churches or, you know – But what's interesting to me, and I don't know if you have any ideas about this, is that most likely it was through the government that the drugs became available.

00:28:13.000 And then once the effects seemed to be counter to how, who knows, maybe there were just two factions of government.

00:28:21.000 One that was pro, you know, let's see what happens.

00:28:25.000 You know, let's do this experiment.

00:28:27.000 And then the other was, you know, push back and Let's change the culture through making these illegal.

00:28:38.000 But what you see now is you definitely see using these for therapeutic purposes.

00:28:45.000 Yeah.

00:28:47.000 The MKUltra experiments.

00:28:50.000 When you realize what the government was involved with and what they were doing, how they were running the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic and they were administering psychedelics to people in brothels without their knowledge and observing them and what they did with Charles Manson.

00:29:08.000 It's very well detailed.

00:29:10.000 I don't know if you've read Tom O'Neill's book, Chaos.

00:29:13.000 Have you ever read that?

00:29:14.000 Yeah.

00:29:14.000 Insane.

00:29:15.000 Yeah, I know.

00:29:16.000 It's insane, because Tom is so detail-oriented.

00:29:20.000 I mean, he's so crazy that he studied this one thing for 20 years, like, and really kind of like tanked his life, you know, and then finally got the book out there. 0.99

00:29:28.000 And the book is just holy shit. 0.99

00:29:31.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:29:31.000 Because it's what the facts, the absolute undeniable facts in that book, just those alone. 0.98

00:29:37.000 Forget speculation, but forget theory.

00:29:40.000 Just the facts alone are insane.

00:29:42.000 They most likely created Charles Manson, most likely gave him psychedelics, gave him LSD, taught him how to mind control influential young people or easily influenced young people and get them to do horrific things and demonize the hippie movement.

00:30:00.000 Yeah, it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

00:30:02.000 Yeah, like what's going on right now?

00:30:04.000 That's exactly what I think.

00:30:05.000 I don't think there's good right now.

00:30:07.000 I think right now they're baffled by this thing called the internet. 0.96

00:30:12.000 I think the internet threw a giant monkey wrench in propaganda because it made people so much more resistant to bullshit. 0.99

00:30:20.000 Yes. 1.00

00:30:21.000 And then when you see things like, especially coming out of the pandemic, When you see how incompetent these people that are supposed to be leaders are and how foolhardy they are and how stupid their decisions were. 0.99

00:30:35.000 And then you just look at the undeniable transfer of wealth to the upper small area of the country that gained billions of dollars in wealth and how much it devastated small businesses. 0.99

00:30:50.000 Did you guys do this on purpose?

00:30:52.000 Like, do you know what you're doing? 1.00

00:30:53.000 Are you idiots? 1.00

00:30:54.000 Like, why are you telling us what to do? 1.00

00:30:57.000 You guys are fools. 0.99

00:30:58.000 And especially when it comes to, like, does anybody believe that Joe Biden's ever had a transcendent experience? 1.00

00:31:06.000 Does anybody believe that Joe Biden has ever met God and came back with a message for mankind?

00:31:11.000 No.

00:31:12.000 It's like everything is like bizarre, ego-driven, narrative-driven lies and propaganda and just nonsense that's supposed to make it look like they're doing the right thing always.

00:31:26.000 Yeah, that's a terrible idea of justice.

00:31:29.000 Yes.

00:31:30.000 But it's the appearance of justice without actually doing the right thing.

00:31:33.000 Yeah, and it's got all the aspects of a cult.

00:31:39.000 The people that go along with it, no matter what the evidence shows.

00:31:43.000 The people that aren't stepping back and going, wait a minute, we are being run by...

00:31:49.000 People that have zero feelings for the actual populace.

00:31:54.000 And all they're trying to do is feed this machine that's got them to where they are in the first place.

00:32:00.000 Yeah.

00:32:01.000 It's terrible.

00:32:02.000 It's terrible.

00:32:03.000 And as it moves forward, it creates the need for resistance.

00:32:09.000 And that's what I've always thought about evil and negative things in the first place.

00:32:16.000 They are necessary.

00:32:18.000 Because they motivate change and they motivate evolution.

00:32:23.000 They motivate expression of disdain, of people that are completely displeased, people that are very upset with the way things are.

00:32:36.000 They know this is the wrong way.

00:32:37.000 And it motivates the zeitgeist to move into a different direction, which I think is happening.

00:32:44.000 I hear that.

00:32:46.000 This was actually a comment from a student, the exact same comment that you just said, is that, you know, there's this structural evil, right?

00:32:53.000 There's this evil.

00:32:54.000 And it actually does some good in the sense that it motivates people to transform.

00:33:00.000 Okay.

00:33:02.000 I mean, yeah.

00:33:04.000 Yeah.

00:33:05.000 I agree with you.

00:33:06.000 And I'm at the same point.

00:33:08.000 So through my looking at the UFO phenomenon, and, you know, I knew all of this.

00:33:14.000 I grew up in Northern California.

00:33:16.000 You know, there were the I can't think of the name.

00:33:22.000 It's right above where I live.

00:33:23.000 The Bohemian Grove.

00:33:25.000 So I kind of already had an idea of this kind of thing.

00:33:29.000 You know, of the group, the cult, as you call it.

00:33:33.000 Yeah.

00:33:34.000 All right.

00:33:34.000 And it's easy to see.

00:33:36.000 Right.

00:33:37.000 Well, for those who can see it, it's easy to see.

00:33:40.000 Some people don't want to see it.

00:33:42.000 So once you see it, you're like, okay.

00:33:45.000 But then to live it, this is what I felt like happened to me.

00:33:49.000 So in 2012, after I started the study of UFOs, I recognized that the management of that That message of the UFO for the American public had been organized not just from the 1940s, but really from earlier, from the early 20th century.

00:34:06.000 And once I started to recognize, even meet the people who were responsible for managing this in a very cohesive, tight way, very specific, that's when I recognized that it was, that, you know, I felt it.

00:34:21.000 I guess that's the difference, was that before I just saw it On the sideline, you know, like we talk about it now, you and I, and it looks like we're talking about it from the sideline.

00:34:30.000 We're saying, yeah, this is really bad what they're doing and stuff.

00:34:33.000 But I was part of it.

00:34:34.000 I saw it.

00:34:35.000 I know those people.

00:34:37.000 They talked to me about it.

00:34:38.000 They talked to me about why they were doing it.

00:34:40.000 And they said, Diana, you don't want to help these people.

00:34:44.000 They will kill you if you had something that they wanted.

00:34:48.000 Like, these are not good people, is what they were saying. 0.58

00:34:51.000 These people specifically.

00:34:53.000 The general population.

00:34:54.000 They were talking about the general population. 0.98

00:34:55.000 The general population would kill you. 0.86

00:34:57.000 That's what they were saying.

00:34:58.000 They were saying that these people only do good because they have to do good.

00:35:01.000 They are actually bad.

00:35:03.000 And so this was the argument I was getting.

00:35:05.000 So it caused me to eject these people from my life, for one.

00:35:10.000 But also to...

00:35:12.000 To understand more deeply and believe me, I've already thought a lot about the problem of evil.

00:35:19.000 You know, I spend my life reading about it and doing, you know, talking about it with people and, you know, what can we do?

00:35:26.000 I recognize we can't do anything except work on ourselves.

00:35:30.000 And that's where I had to reread some of those texts like the Plato text that I talked about.

00:35:36.000 He talks about your idea of evil that perhaps – or he calls it injustice, injustice.

00:35:41.000 And he says that perhaps people are unjust just because there needs to be injustice for other people to like recognize it and then to do this thing.

00:35:53.000 How do we create a just society?

00:35:55.000 That's his question.

00:35:56.000 And I don't think he—so he doesn't actually answer that question with words, but he does it through giving stories.

00:36:04.000 And one of the stories is the allegory of the cave, where, you know, the allegory, it's like the Matrix, right?

00:36:09.000 It's like, you know, where people are in—they're being tied up, and there's puppeteers who are showing them Yeah.

00:36:30.000 Yeah.

00:36:35.000 Yeah.

00:36:44.000 Like you're not worried about, you know, so it's almost like an emergent phenomena from these communities that do it.

00:36:51.000 And they're small communities.

00:36:53.000 So there is structural injustice and there's structural evil.

00:36:57.000 And it doesn't seem like we can fight.

00:37:00.000 That's what I learned from doing the UFO. I learned that there were these things, UFOs.

00:37:04.000 But more intensely and more personally, I learned that the government was doing this and that's what was upsetting to me most.

00:37:12.000 Right.

00:37:12.000 So I want to take it back because a lot of this is probably hard to follow for people that aren't like well read in this.

00:37:19.000 When you say that they have been engineering or orchestrating public perception of this experience from the beginning, what's the earliest known instance of this?

00:37:34.000 Okay, so the one that is unclassified is Project Blue Book.

00:37:38.000 And that's from 1950s, 1952. But I know that and I have to explain how one knows this.

00:37:47.000 So we have documents that talk about Project Blue Book.

00:37:51.000 And that's the managed, you know, they're managing the perception, the public perception of UFOs goes back to like 47 even with Roswell and that kind of thing.

00:38:01.000 There's another, and this is what I've found, is that there's an oral tradition that is part of the communities that run this, run these programs, like the UFO programs,

00:38:17.000 right?

00:38:21.000 That information is carried within people.

00:38:24.000 It's not written down.

00:38:26.000 They even have a word for not writing it down.

00:38:28.000 When they're going to have these meetings, they have this special term and everybody puts down everything.

00:38:35.000 What's the term?

00:38:36.000 It's called pencils up.

00:38:40.000 Pencils up.

00:38:40.000 Yeah.

00:38:41.000 So pencils up means they're just going to discuss these things.

00:38:44.000 And then that's the only record of it.

00:38:48.000 Yeah.

00:38:49.000 It's the oral tradition.

00:38:50.000 Now, why I was able to look at this is because I had done work looking at oral traditions in religious communities.

00:38:58.000 Like oral traditions go back 10,000 years, whereas written traditions are like 2,000 years old.

00:39:05.000 Oral traditions are actually more accurate than we think they are.

00:39:08.000 We tend to think of it as telephone game.

00:39:11.000 But you can get a lot of information from oral traditions.

00:39:15.000 And this is actually how a lot of classified information is kept, through oral tradition.

00:39:20.000 Especially in a very disciplined and structured environment like high-level military.

00:39:26.000 Yeah.

00:39:28.000 So they have a perception.

00:39:30.000 And one of the things that you said earlier is that they think that the greater population is not good and that they will turn on you and that they're evil.

00:39:40.000 Well, that's one faction.

00:39:42.000 So what I found was that there were several different factions within the perception management of UFOs.

00:39:49.000 And one of the factions...

00:39:52.000 Was responsible for, sadly, harassing people who do research.

00:39:57.000 And I found this out by being harassed.

00:39:59.000 How so?

00:40:00.000 How were you harassed?

00:40:01.000 Okay, so, you know, here I am, just your average professor doing their work, and, you know, and doing it pretty well.

00:40:11.000 At my university, I was the chair of my department, well regarded by my colleagues and students, and never really doing anything weird, right?

00:40:22.000 And then I start to study UFOs thinking that they're not real, thinking that it's just a new form of religion.

00:40:28.000 And then quickly having people come into my sphere, research sphere, who are part of CIA, part of FBI, that kind of thing.

00:40:39.000 And then getting a shock that, whoa, this could be dangerous and maybe I shouldn't be doing this.

00:40:44.000 And thinking, you know, but...

00:40:46.000 Just simply because those people are contacting you or specific reasons why you would think it's dangerous?

00:40:53.000 It indicated to me that there was something that I shouldn't maybe be doing, that it could be dangerous.

00:40:58.000 Right.

00:40:59.000 That you could suffer consequences for your curiosity or for your research.

00:41:03.000 Yeah.

00:41:03.000 And that they would punish you or you could be punished.

00:41:06.000 That's what I thought.

00:41:07.000 Yeah.

00:41:08.000 Yeah.

00:41:08.000 No, most certainly.

00:41:09.000 And plus, I had done some research on UFOs by that time, of course.

00:41:12.000 But what is it about the research and what is about what you could possibly uncover that would be so dangerous?

00:41:22.000 OK. So, of course, that's a question that's loaded.

00:41:26.000 So I'm going to talk a little bit about – I'll answer it in part.

00:41:31.000 OK. So in part, this is before crash retrieval became a term that the Congress used.

00:41:39.000 Right.

00:41:40.000 So I was – What year are we talking about?

00:41:42.000 I started in 2012. By 2015 and 2016, I was already in full shock mode of, wow, this is bigger than I thought.

00:41:54.000 I had been invited to go to a crash retrieval spot in New Mexico that was under a no-fly zone.

00:42:03.000 And I still didn't believe that with UFOs at this point.

00:42:06.000 You have to understand that.

00:42:07.000 So I just thought that this – I thought the person inviting me is Tyler.

00:42:11.000 He's a scientist.

00:42:12.000 He works for the Space Force.

00:42:14.000 He believes this and I'm wondering how does he even believe that this is real?

00:42:18.000 We're going with Gary Nolan who's from Stanford and he's out.

00:42:23.000 But at the time, I called him James in my book.

00:42:26.000 And I'm the one actually who invited him to go.

00:42:29.000 Because I didn't really want to go by myself, you know?

00:42:32.000 And so I insisted that Gary go with me, and Tyler figured out who Gary was, and he said, okay.

00:42:38.000 So we went out there.

00:42:38.000 We had to actually wear blindfolds, and it was out in the middle of this place in New Mexico.

00:42:44.000 I don't know where.

00:42:45.000 I know what was near it, but I don't know where the actual place was.

00:42:49.000 And we were looking for parts, right, that had been put out there.

00:42:53.000 And during the time period...

00:42:55.000 So I think part of it was the danger was that parts exist, right?

00:43:01.000 So things like this do exist.

00:43:03.000 And there are anomalous materials.

00:43:07.000 This is what I was finding out.

00:43:09.000 And I think that this is what...

00:43:11.000 I'm an okay researcher.

00:43:13.000 It's not like I would make this up, nor would I lie.

00:43:16.000 You know, I'm publishing with Oxford, so my reputation is at stake, right?

00:43:22.000 So I'm doing the best I can to kind of adjudicate, like, am I being fed disinformation or, you know, what's going on?

00:43:29.000 Gary now will be able to identify by taking these parts back and analyzing them through his laboratories, whether or not they're engineers or not.

00:43:39.000 And...

00:43:40.000 And he's been doing that ever since.

00:43:42.000 So these are the kinds of things that I would have found out.

00:43:45.000 I think part of it was also that I was finding out that there was an oral tradition and that the perception management was very tight.

00:43:53.000 And I think this is what they were afraid.

00:43:56.000 But I've said this now publicly.

00:44:00.000 But I did get harassed, though.

00:44:02.000 I did get harassed.

00:44:03.000 And it still happens.

00:44:05.000 How did you get harassed?

00:44:06.000 Most of it is doxing and email harassment at my university began, both to me and Gary at the same time, and people showing up.

00:44:21.000 People?

00:44:21.000 Yeah, people in my town showing up.

00:44:23.000 What kind of people?

00:44:24.000 Schizophrenics?

00:44:26.000 No, but people you wouldn't want to meet. 0.87

00:44:30.000 Loons.

00:44:31.000 Yeah.

00:44:31.000 Do you think that's targeted?

00:44:33.000 Do you think that's on purpose?

00:44:34.000 Oh, it's for sure.

00:44:34.000 But do you think that also that might just be people that are obsessed with this particular subject?

00:44:39.000 No.

00:44:39.000 These are people that are affiliated with people in those – yeah.

00:44:45.000 I mean there's no doubt.

00:44:47.000 Okay.

00:44:47.000 So tell me about the crash retrieval site.

00:44:50.000 Yeah.

00:44:51.000 So this is in...

00:44:52.000 Okay, so now you have to understand this is a long time period.

00:44:55.000 So I started this in 2012. I get this shock where I'm being, you know, people are asking me to meet, you know, people from these programs and from the Space Force.

00:45:05.000 And I'm actually not meeting with them because I'm waiting.

00:45:08.000 I'm kind of thinking I've got to think this through.

00:45:10.000 It wasn't until about...

00:45:13.000 2014 that I actually start to meet the people, like the affiliated people, and they show me some things and they ask me to go to this crash retrieval site in New Mexico.

00:45:27.000 No, this is a recent crash?

00:45:29.000 No, it's...

00:45:30.000 Okay, so this crash is part of a series of crashes that happened in the 1940s.

00:45:36.000 So the Roswell.

00:45:37.000 It wasn't Roswell, actually.

00:45:38.000 It was one of the crash sites that's near...

00:45:41.000 It's in New Mexico, but it's not Roswell.

00:45:44.000 So there was more than one crash in New Mexico, allegedly.

00:45:47.000 Allegedly, yeah.

00:45:48.000 They said that there were probably four, maybe even more.

00:45:51.000 I don't know. 0.99

00:45:52.000 What a bunch of shitty UFOs keep crashing. 0.99

00:45:54.000 I know, I know. 0.99

00:45:55.000 Well, they don't believe that they crashed.

00:45:56.000 They use that term, but they don't think it's a crash.

00:46:00.000 They think that it's...

00:46:01.000 They personally, I'll tell you from a professor's standpoint, their idea of this is that it's a donation.

00:46:09.000 They call it the donation site.

00:46:11.000 So they think that these were donated materials and they're going to get information, and they do.

00:46:17.000 And that's how Tyler was able to create a lot of the things that he created through – and he would fly these on the space shuttle, by the way, these experiments and so forth.

00:46:30.000 It was very, very fascinating to me.

00:46:31.000 I mean I think anybody would be fascinated with it to tell you the truth.

00:46:34.000 When you say fly these, you don't mean physical materials.

00:46:37.000 So he would have an idea that he would get through these protocols that I told you about.

00:46:42.000 So he practices these protocols.

00:46:44.000 And it would be related to something that he would then want to fly on the space shuttle because this was during the time the space shuttle was happening.

00:46:53.000 And the space shuttle had anti-gravity environments.

00:46:57.000 And he needed these environments in order to create this.

00:47:00.000 And now this is actually a whole field called biologics.

00:47:03.000 So there's a real field now where people are doing these experiments in space and creating things that we can't create here.

00:47:12.000 Like what?

00:47:15.000 Medicine, certain types of metals, kind of like ceramic metals.

00:47:20.000 He created something.

00:47:22.000 I actually wrote about this and published about it.

00:47:24.000 Totally academic paper.

00:47:26.000 So, you know, most general readers would never read it.

00:47:30.000 It's because it has academic jargon in it.

00:47:33.000 But I talked all about it.

00:47:35.000 Jamie's got something new.

00:47:36.000 Researchers have capitalized on microgravity in space to accelerate drug discovery and development.

00:47:41.000 That was one of the speculations about the type of metals that were retrieved, supposedly, from these crash sites, that these, whatever these metals were, they were layered and that they could only be layered specifically the way they were done in a zero-gravity environment.

00:48:02.000 Yeah, that's right.

00:48:03.000 They were engineered.

00:48:05.000 So I actually did talk to Gary before I came on your podcast because I just wanted to be sure, you know, because I don't want to represent his research incorrectly.

00:48:15.000 So I said, can you please, you know, recap it? 0.94

00:48:17.000 He always thinks I'm an idiot too. 0.99

00:48:19.000 He's like, how many times have I told you this? 0.98

00:48:21.000 So yeah, so he has parts from various of the crash sites that are clearly engineered.

00:48:30.000 Not by humans.

00:48:32.000 But he's not going to jump to the conclusion that it's extraterrestrial.

00:48:36.000 He says, we just don't know.

00:48:38.000 Right.

00:48:38.000 It's just something that is outside of the realm of our current understanding of how we create physical materials.

00:48:46.000 That's correct.

00:48:48.000 And how much of this stuff do they have?

00:48:50.000 Do they have full crafts?

00:48:52.000 I've never seen any full crafts.

00:48:54.000 What did you see when you went to the crash site?

00:48:56.000 So I saw two types of materials.

00:48:58.000 One, I can say, looks like kind of metallic frog skin.

00:49:03.000 And another...

00:49:04.000 And this is on the ground at the crash site?

00:49:07.000 Okay, so that's another thing.

00:49:09.000 I have to tell you a little bit about how we came about this.

00:49:11.000 Now, remember, this is the first book that I wrote about this.

00:49:14.000 So I've written two books about it.

00:49:15.000 And...

00:49:17.000 I wasn't a believer.

00:49:18.000 So when I went there, I even wasn't a believer.

00:49:20.000 I was like, I think they're trying to give me misinfo or something's going on.

00:49:25.000 Maybe they really believe this.

00:49:26.000 Well, they both really believe this.

00:49:28.000 I know that for sure.

00:49:29.000 So we're there and we had to wear blindfolds in order to go, me and Gary.

00:49:35.000 So Tyler's taking us.

00:49:38.000 We drive to a certain place.

00:49:39.000 He says, put the blindfolds on.

00:49:41.000 We had to leave our cell phones.

00:49:43.000 We couldn't take any technology with us.

00:49:44.000 And so we go out.

00:49:46.000 It takes about an hour to get out to the site.

00:49:48.000 We're blindfolded.

00:49:49.000 We get out to the site.

00:49:51.000 We get out.

00:49:52.000 We're wearing – we were wearing – like I guess there's rattlesnakes out there.

00:49:57.000 And so we have to wear certain boots and things like that.

00:50:00.000 So we get out.

00:50:01.000 We take our blindfolds off.

00:50:03.000 And the first thing I do is I look around because it looks really familiar to me, even though I've never been out there.

00:50:08.000 And Tyler looked at me and he said, looks familiar, doesn't it?

00:50:12.000 And I said, you know, yeah.

00:50:14.000 And he said, you've seen it in the X-Files.

00:50:18.000 And I was like, what?

00:50:21.000 He goes, they had an insider on their team.

00:50:25.000 And I honestly thought, okay, this actually fits into my research that, you know, we learn everything we do about religion from media.

00:50:34.000 Like, you want to know what, you know, Moses looked like, you just watch, you know, the Ten Commandments and things like that.

00:50:40.000 Like, it's not true, of course, but that's how most people learn about their religions.

00:50:44.000 And so this made me understand...

00:50:47.000 This is what's going on.

00:50:48.000 It's like people are believing this through this, and then I'm coming to this, and I'm going to confirm that it indeed looks like this, and it is a crash site.

00:50:56.000 It's just too weird for me, but this is what I study, so I'm going to study.

00:51:01.000 But that gets to your point.

00:51:03.000 How did we get this stuff?

00:51:05.000 So he actually did have metal detectors that were configured for specific types of metals that he had these built.

00:51:15.000 Is there a scientific term for these particular types of metals?

00:51:19.000 They're called metamaterials.

00:51:21.000 Metamaterials.

00:51:22.000 Yeah.

00:51:22.000 I think that's just a fancy word for saying we don't know what this is, frankly, because they're meta.

00:51:28.000 Okay.

00:51:29.000 Right?

00:51:30.000 And they're layered in some sort of a way where it's like literally like atom upon atom.

00:51:38.000 Yeah.

00:51:39.000 Well, I don't actually know the science of it.

00:51:42.000 I just know what these guys tell me because they're doing the research at their laboratories.

00:51:50.000 People are very cagey about it.

00:51:52.000 Like Jacques Vallée was very cagey about the way he was willing to describe it and the way he was willing to describe these things.

00:51:59.000 It's almost like they don't want to blurt out too much because it will cut off access.

00:52:08.000 Okay, so that could be.

00:52:10.000 But I know that the reason that I don't want to is there's some type of national security issue, and I am an American.

00:52:19.000 Right.

00:52:19.000 So there's something like that going on.

00:52:22.000 Right.

00:52:23.000 Especially if someone else can figure out how to use these things.

00:52:26.000 Yeah.

00:52:26.000 So when you go to this site, do you see the physical ground where this thing hit?

00:52:32.000 Okay, yes.

00:52:33.000 So...

00:52:33.000 What does it look like?

00:52:34.000 Okay, so at this point, the whole site is covered with rubble that looks like rusted rubble, and it's not sand.

00:52:45.000 So there's the sand of the desert, right?

00:52:47.000 And then there's this rubble everywhere.

00:52:50.000 And I'm stepping on the rubble, and I'm kind of looking at it, and I... How big are these pieces?

00:52:54.000 Well, this is all just like less.

00:52:57.000 Yeah, it's like gravel.

00:52:58.000 It's like and so I asked Tyler, what's this?

00:53:01.000 And he said that after the government retrieved the crash and they didn't want anyone out here looking.

00:53:08.000 So what they did was they dropped a bunch of tin cans out here in the 1950s and these have disintegrated down into this rubble.

00:53:14.000 And so I put that in my book because that's what he said. 0.59

00:53:18.000 And when I put that in my book, the editor of my book said to me, you can't say this because it's ridiculous.

00:53:26.000 And at the time, I was like, it is ridiculous, but this is what happened and it's data.

00:53:32.000 And even though we don't understand it now and it seems ridiculous, we need to keep it in there.

00:53:37.000 It doesn't seem ridiculous to me at all.

00:53:39.000 Well, this is a person who absolutely, you know, the editor, who absolutely doesn't believe in UFOs at all, but knows that I'm doing good work on a new type of religion, therefore is keeping the Oxford brand, you know, Oxford University straight and narrow.

00:53:56.000 But I convinced her.

00:53:57.000 I said, it's data, so we've got to keep it in there.

00:53:59.000 And I'm really happy I did.

00:54:00.000 I kept it in there.

00:54:01.000 I kept a lot of stuff in there that didn't make sense to me at the time.

00:54:04.000 But when I look back on it with everything that's coming out now, I'm like, okay, I'm glad I did that.

00:54:10.000 Well, the strategy for disseminating disinformation along with real information has long been used.

00:54:19.000 Yes.

00:54:19.000 Where they'll say a bunch of really ridiculous things and connect them to something that's probably real.

00:54:24.000 Yes. 0.84

00:54:24.000 Right. 0.84

00:54:24.000 And that way everything gets thrown out. 0.84

00:54:27.000 It's the baby with the bathwater.

00:54:28.000 The whole thing gets thrown out.

00:54:29.000 Totally.

00:54:30.000 And if you have a site where they've picked up these anomalous metals that defy our understanding of metallurgy and you're calling them metamaterials, no one knows where the hell it comes from, what's the best way to confuse people?

00:54:44.000 Well, just throw a bunch of regular metal everywhere.

00:54:47.000 That's right.

00:54:47.000 That's exactly it.

00:54:48.000 Yeah, just throw 10 cans.

00:54:49.000 But we were out there all day.

00:54:51.000 So we were out there for probably 10 hours.

00:54:53.000 And I know...

00:54:54.000 So at many points in the day, Gary and I would go aside and kind of confer without Tyler listening and saying...

00:55:02.000 Is this a setup?

00:55:04.000 And so he goes, well, let's just try to find some stuff and I'll analyze it and we'll tell you.

00:55:09.000 So do you notice that the ground has been disturbed?

00:55:14.000 Is there an indication that something hit there?

00:55:18.000 Yes.

00:55:19.000 So Tyler took us and showed us everywhere.

00:55:22.000 Like he's been a part of this retrieval site for like 40 years or so.

00:55:28.000 And he knows the people that like the original people and the story and everything like that.

00:55:36.000 So he gave us a tour of the whole place.

00:55:39.000 And we did—and we found parts, by the way, and some of the parts were so deep down into the ground, like there were rocks and things like that.

00:55:48.000 And Gary, like I'm afraid he's going to get bit by a rattlesnake, frankly.

00:55:52.000 He's putting his hand down there and, you know, spending like— We're good to go.

00:56:18.000 I think?

00:56:44.000 And they both looked at me and laughed.

00:57:06.000 So he went through, I had to go through, Gary went through, and he did get stopped.

00:57:11.000 And everything happened exactly as Tyler said it would.

00:57:16.000 They were going to look through everything.

00:57:18.000 They were going to take everything apart.

00:57:20.000 Then all that was was a signal to someone in D.C. that somebody had these parts and this is who.

00:57:28.000 That's what he said.

00:57:29.000 And I don't know if the signal went to D.C., but everything else happened.

00:57:33.000 And Gary and I were both sweating, right?

00:57:36.000 We were like, oh.

00:57:36.000 So they essentially allow this?

00:57:40.000 Yeah.

00:57:41.000 Yeah.

00:57:42.000 Is it because they want different perspectives from different academics?

00:57:47.000 I think so.

00:57:48.000 My personal opinion is that...

00:57:49.000 And in fact, there was a conference at Stanford like a month ago, and I was at that conference.

00:57:55.000 And part of what was said was that...

00:57:58.000 This is information that we can't keep siloed because it's too important and we need to have the best minds on this information, this data, this material.

00:58:08.000 And so they're kind of like outsourcing.

00:58:11.000 How big were these pieces?

00:58:12.000 So these pieces that I found weren't very big.

00:58:16.000 I mean, they were about, one of them was about like this big, right?

00:58:20.000 Okay, like so the size of a pack of gum?

00:58:22.000 Yeah.

00:58:22.000 And the actual frog skin type thing was probably about this big.

00:58:29.000 Like a small notebook?

00:58:30.000 And we found a couple of those.

00:58:31.000 You found a couple just wandering around this area.

00:58:34.000 Well, we weren't wandering.

00:58:35.000 We were actually digging in and looking.

00:58:37.000 Yeah.

00:58:38.000 Wandering is a bad word.

00:58:39.000 That's okay.

00:58:40.000 Exploring.

00:58:40.000 Yeah.

00:58:45.000 Is it malleable?

00:58:48.000 Yes, it's malleable.

00:58:49.000 And you could crunch it up and it'll go back to its original form.

00:58:53.000 I've heard of that before.

00:58:54.000 That was something that they talked about at Roswell.

00:58:57.000 That there was some bizarre metal that you could crumple up like a piece of paper and it would flatten right back out.

00:59:04.000 And that's what you experienced?

00:59:05.000 I don't know if it was the same material, but yes.

00:59:08.000 Similar.

00:59:09.000 What did that feel like when you did that?

00:59:13.000 It's hard to explain because you have to understand, I was really resistant to, you know, 10 years ago, think about it.

00:59:23.000 This was a time period when we weren't talking about UFOs.

00:59:26.000 Right. 0.90

00:59:26.000 It was ridiculous. 0.90

00:59:27.000 Yeah. 0.84

00:59:27.000 Until 2017. That's right. 0.84

00:59:29.000 To the New York Times story.

00:59:30.000 That's right.

00:59:30.000 And my book was impressed during that time.

00:59:32.000 So during this time period, I'm doing this research, and I am not going to believe that this is...

00:59:37.000 But so many indicators were telling me that it was, yes, this is Diana.

00:59:42.000 This is what's going on.

00:59:43.000 There is something...

00:59:44.000 And so much – and when I looked back at the Space Force, our Space Force and also the history of that, I could see, OK, there are so many things that just don't add up here that this is probably – and I met too many people that had been long timers in the program,

01:00:01.000 like seriously long timers, like their whole lives.

01:00:04.000 Live and die by this.

01:00:06.000 Live and die by it.

01:00:07.000 When they die, they die with that information.

01:00:10.000 And it's traumatizing to them and their family too.

01:00:13.000 I can only imagine.

01:00:15.000 The people that worked on Roswell that spoke about it many, many years later, they have that sort of same weight that they're carrying around with them.

01:00:27.000 Philip Corso and all those other people, when they describe the experience like many, many years later, so there's a weight to the information that they're carrying.

01:00:36.000 It's almost like they want to tell the world, but the world's not going to even believe them.

01:00:39.000 And how could they unless they experienced it?

01:00:42.000 And even though they experienced it, they're still baffled by it.

01:00:47.000 That's exactly the feeling I got.

01:00:48.000 It was a weight.

01:00:50.000 There was a sense of duty to the American, you know, to being an American, of course, and patriotism there.

01:00:59.000 But there was also a sense that these were the true actors in history, and we will never know their names.

01:01:08.000 So you spent 10 hours at this site.

01:01:11.000 And is there any guidance?

01:01:13.000 Are they describing things to you?

01:01:15.000 Are they telling you what you can and can't do?

01:01:17.000 Is there any...

01:01:18.000 No, it was just me, Gary, and Tyler.

01:01:22.000 There was no...

01:01:23.000 No one else.

01:01:24.000 So who transported you there?

01:01:26.000 Well, Tyler did because it was his site.

01:01:29.000 So Tyler blindfolded you?

01:01:30.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:01:30.000 He's the person who worked on this site for 40 years.

01:01:35.000 So obviously he has permission to do this.

01:01:37.000 He does.

01:01:37.000 In fact, he had to get permission for Gary to go.

01:01:40.000 He had already received permission for me to go and he had to get permission for Gary to go.

01:01:47.000 And what kind of information are they giving you in terms of what their conclusions are?

01:01:54.000 How many different possibilities that they have surmised?

01:01:58.000 Do they have a summary of all the different aspects of this phenomenon that they think it could be or might not be?

01:02:08.000 So, yes.

01:02:10.000 So the story actually begins there.

01:02:13.000 And then I continue to work with Tyler because I'm pretty fascinated by what he does.

01:02:20.000 And I'm fascinated about the programs.

01:02:23.000 And I'm fascinated by the fact that the true actors of history are unknown.

01:02:31.000 What do you mean by that?

01:02:32.000 Because these are the people that are doing things that actually change history.

01:02:37.000 Like, think of the first people that decided, hey, let's give these people LSD and see what happens, right?

01:02:44.000 Well, they probably weren't Richard Alpert, Ram Dass, and Timothy Leary.

01:02:48.000 They probably weren't them.

01:02:50.000 It was Jolly West.

01:02:51.000 There you go, okay?

01:02:52.000 And most people don't know who that is, okay?

01:02:55.000 So that's what I'm saying is, like, there's a whole other level to our history.

01:03:00.000 And I already knew this anyway, being a historian of religion.

01:03:02.000 But I guess I was a patriot, right?

01:03:06.000 And I still am.

01:03:07.000 As am I. So when I learned about this, I really wanted to share the story because I felt like these people, even if they remained invisible, they should get their due.

01:03:18.000 Because these people keep us safe in ways that we just don't know.

01:03:21.000 And they're dedicating their lives and they're getting no recognition for it.

01:03:26.000 No recognition.

01:03:27.000 And so that really prompted me more than anything to write about it.

01:03:32.000 So I was working with Tyler and I was scheduled to go to the Vatican.

01:03:38.000 And it was at the Vatican where we encountered – where a lot of things happened for Tyler that I saw made him understand that this was something that had been going on historically for a very long time period.

01:03:53.000 See, we didn't just go to the Vatican.

01:03:55.000 We also went to the – well, we went to the Vatican Archive.

01:03:57.000 Which is hard to get into, but I could get into it.

01:04:00.000 And we also went to the Space Observatory Archive, which most people don't even know that the Vatican has a Space Observatory.

01:04:07.000 And how that all happened was not set up, Joe.

01:04:10.000 It was so organic.

01:04:13.000 Because it happened before I even met Tyler.

01:04:16.000 And I put off going there because I had, at the time, very young kids.

01:04:22.000 And I didn't want to leave them and go to another country.

01:04:25.000 But For, you know, three weeks or whatnot.

01:04:29.000 But I had been invited by Brother Guy Consolmagno to go to the Space Observatory because I had been studying about the space, you know, research.

01:04:39.000 And I said, does the Vatican have like a lot of space documents, you know, documents about space?

01:04:44.000 And he said, every single thing that the Vatican does, and we do, he said, comes to where I live, which is at the Space Observatory.

01:04:51.000 And we have a scholar's residence and you're welcome to stay for as long as you want.

01:04:55.000 You have full access to the Space Observatory Archive.

01:04:59.000 What is it like?

01:05:01.000 It's great.

01:05:02.000 Describe it to me.

01:05:04.000 Okay.

01:05:04.000 Well, for me, it's great.

01:05:05.000 Many people may think, oh, how boring, right?

01:05:08.000 But original Keplers and Copernicus's and every single thing that people, scientists from 1200, 1300 on up, Thought about space and about magnetism and propulsion and things like that.

01:05:26.000 It's all there, every one of them.

01:05:28.000 And so you go in there and we had full access to it.

01:05:32.000 Tyler and I. How's the Vatican?

01:05:34.000 Well, the Vatican would have it.

01:05:35.000 So because, you know, who was doing this 500 years ago?

01:05:39.000 There was no United States.

01:05:40.000 Right.

01:05:41.000 So of course they're going to have it.

01:05:42.000 They also have an amazing meteorite collection.

01:05:45.000 They have a lot of really cool things there.

01:05:47.000 And again, they're these monks.

01:05:49.000 They're astrophysicist monks.

01:05:51.000 And they're just hanging out there.

01:05:52.000 They've got the best lattes, by the way.

01:05:56.000 Italians.

01:05:57.000 Yeah.

01:05:58.000 They know how to eat.

01:05:59.000 My experience, though, of the Vatican itself was different than the archive.

01:06:04.000 And I've actually heard you talk about the Vatican and I agree.

01:06:07.000 Like you said, I saw you talking about it and you said, you know, I'm looking around and I see all this stuff and they stole it from all these countries.

01:06:16.000 It was like all this booty, you know, the Vatican is filled with it.

01:06:19.000 That was my experience as well.

01:06:20.000 So when I went, you know, we did all the – we did the scholarship, of course, but we also – We did the touristy thing.

01:06:27.000 So, you know, we went and looked at all the museum and everything like that.

01:06:30.000 And everything I saw seemed to me to be like, you know, colonization, you know, the colonization of these people and taking their stuff and the colonization of these people and taking their stuff.

01:06:40.000 And they have it all there.

01:06:42.000 And when you're inside the Vatican, by the way, it's different than when you're outside of it because, you know, when you're outside of it, there are those guys that – the Swiss guards.

01:06:52.000 Well, those guys are militia when you go inside.

01:06:56.000 And they're everywhere.

01:06:59.000 The thing that fascinated me about it was just the volume.

01:07:03.000 The volume.

01:07:05.000 It's like they're hoarders for insane art.

01:07:09.000 I mean, there's stuff that should be in its own room, and it's just stacked next to other stuff that also should be in its own room.

01:07:15.000 It's almost like they don't have enough space for all the stuff that they have.

01:07:20.000 That's what it seems like.

01:07:21.000 Yeah.

01:07:22.000 Well, it's kind of like this place.

01:07:24.000 If you see our stack of art that we have out there, I have stuff that I need to put on the walls. 0.97

01:07:28.000 I just have too much of it because so many people send me cool shit. 0.56

01:07:32.000 This is such an awesome studio. 0.78

01:07:34.000 Thank you.

01:07:34.000 It reminded me immediately when I walked into it.

01:07:36.000 I was like, okay, I want to take photos of everything.

01:07:38.000 But I didn't.

01:07:40.000 But I did want to.

01:07:41.000 Well, you can.

01:07:42.000 It's okay.

01:07:43.000 Yeah, it's just art.

01:07:44.000 It's amazing.

01:07:45.000 You have some really amazing stuff.

01:07:47.000 Thank you.

01:07:47.000 Yeah, it's cool.

01:07:48.000 It's cool to be connected to so many fascinating artists that send me stuff or that I buy their stuff.

01:07:54.000 Like, you know, I bought the Hendrix painting.

01:07:56.000 There's...

01:07:58.000 The thing about the Vatican – well, I got very fortunate that we had a professor that took us on a tour.

01:08:05.000 And my children were pretty young at the time.

01:08:07.000 And when we went, we were outside in this courtyard area where the pinecone is.

01:08:16.000 And he said, do you know the significance of the pinecone?

01:08:20.000 And I said, does it represent the pineal gland?

01:08:23.000 And he said, yes.

01:08:24.000 And so he got so excited.

01:08:26.000 I did not know this.

01:08:26.000 Yeah.

01:08:27.000 Wow.

01:08:27.000 It's also in the Pope's staff.

01:08:30.000 If you look at the staff that the pope carries, the staff has a pine – see if you can get a photo of the staff the pope carries.

01:08:36.000 There's a pine cone in the center of it.

01:08:38.000 The pine cone which is – it's depicted in many, many ancient pieces of art, religious art and it represents the pineal gland because it's similar in appearance to a pine cone.

01:08:53.000 So this pine cone, which also I'm sure probably represents the Fibonacci sequence, which also represents itself in the pine cone, that's the seed of the soul.

01:09:05.000 That's where DMT is made.

01:09:07.000 This might be the gateway place.

01:09:09.000 Yeah.

01:09:10.000 Well, the reason why they have an immense pine cone, I mean, that's not an accident.

01:09:15.000 No, of course not.

01:09:16.000 So here it is.

01:09:18.000 Fascinating.

01:09:19.000 So he has it in his staff.

01:09:21.000 And that massive pine cone that is the sculpture at the Vatican.

01:09:25.000 That's what that is.

01:09:29.000 That is—it's representative of the pineal gland. 0.79

01:09:32.000 And this is what this professor was telling me.

01:09:34.000 And like you see it there in that ancient Mesopotamian art.

01:09:37.000 It's probably Sumerian with that god that has that—I mean that's the Anunnaki carried that thing. 1.00

01:09:44.000 And the fact that they're holding it specifically, that they're telling you like this is what's up.

01:09:50.000 This is the connection.

01:09:52.000 This is the connection to the gods.

01:09:53.000 Did you guess this?

01:09:56.000 Well, I knew that the pineal gland looked like a pine cone.

01:10:00.000 And so when he asked you, you just knew this?

01:10:02.000 Yeah.

01:10:02.000 That's pretty amazing.

01:10:03.000 Well, I'd already had a lot of experiences with DMT. Right.

01:10:08.000 So I already knew.

01:10:09.000 I knew there's a realm accessible to anybody that gets in contact with that stuff that is beyond imagination.

01:10:19.000 Right.

01:10:20.000 It is more real than reality.

01:10:21.000 And when you go there, you've been there before.

01:10:24.000 The most bizarre feeling about it is this terrifying fear while it's happening and an incredible peace when you get in there and a recognition like, oh, I know this place.

01:10:36.000 I've been here.

01:10:37.000 I'm here all the time.

01:10:39.000 I know these things.

01:10:40.000 I know these beings.

01:10:42.000 These beings, they're truth.

01:10:44.000 They're something from somewhere else.

01:10:47.000 Somewhere that's probably around us all the time, that's influencing us all the time.

01:10:53.000 I know a lot of people have had very negative experiences, like horrific experiences of demons and negative encounters.

01:11:02.000 I've had none.

01:11:03.000 I've had no negative experiences like that.

01:11:06.000 My experiences are all in these very enlightened, bizarre creatures that contact you.

01:11:14.000 And they seem to know, like, what's wrong with me, like, right away.

01:11:17.000 And they seem to, like, also work on you. 0.99

01:11:20.000 Like, there's this bizarre feeling, like, they're like, let me get in there and fix your fucking wires. 0.98

01:11:26.000 Well, that, of course, sounds like the abduction experience, too. 0.99

01:11:29.000 Yes.

01:11:30.000 Very, very, very similar to the abduction experience.

01:11:33.000 I think they're all connected.

01:11:34.000 I really do.

01:11:35.000 I think that's why.

01:11:36.000 I mean, I know you're saying that some of them do happen during the day.

01:11:39.000 I'm sure.

01:11:40.000 I'm sure some of them happen during the day.

01:11:42.000 Most of them happen at night.

01:11:43.000 The vast majority of them happen during what people are sleeping.

01:11:46.000 That's true.

01:11:47.000 And that seems to be completely connected to that.

01:11:51.000 It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, other than an actual, you know, like...

01:11:56.000 You know, Hollywood-style UFO landing and then come and get you, which seems so theatrical.

01:12:04.000 I think the reality is far more bizarre than that.

01:12:08.000 I think that's one of the things that McKenna said about DMT and also about mushrooms.

01:12:15.000 Terrence McKenna said that they show you themselves in that way to comfort you Because the reality of what they are would be too much for you to handle.

01:12:27.000 And that what you're seeing, even though it's mind-blowing, it's just a tiny little piece of what it actually is.

01:12:36.000 So when I'm at the Vatican and I see this pine cone, I'm going, okay.

01:12:42.000 So there's this recognition that this connection to God, this connection to this higher experience, this higher power...

01:12:52.000 It's available inside of us.

01:12:54.000 There's a gateway, and that's the gateway.

01:12:57.000 That pinecone is the gateway.

01:13:00.000 That's amazing.

01:13:02.000 And, you know, my parish priest actually about a year ago gave me a little pine cone, a little gold pine cone.

01:13:09.000 And I put it on my bag.

01:13:11.000 And I didn't know this, actually.

01:13:14.000 And as I came here to Austin, it fell off in the airport.

01:13:20.000 And it's not gold or anything, but it looks gold.

01:13:23.000 And it fell off and it kind of went away.

01:13:25.000 And it would be, I thought, maybe I should just let it go.

01:13:28.000 Yeah.

01:13:28.000 And then I looked at it and I was like, nah, that's really important for some reason.

01:13:33.000 So I picked it up and put it back in the bag.

01:13:35.000 That's wild.

01:13:36.000 I know.

01:13:37.000 Yeah.

01:13:38.000 It's a strange representation of what, I mean, it's an icon of this thing, whatever this thing is that's inside of us that is this gateway.

01:13:49.000 And it must have been that Plato and his school was basically – they were basically trying to make the body healthy enough for people to access through this, which is a type of mind – like he didn't call it intellectual.

01:14:03.000 He had another word for it.

01:14:05.000 They have – like Greeks, they have different words for knowledge, right? 1.00

01:14:11.000 So this was a form of the dialectic, which was a certain type of knowledge, a certain type of knowing.

01:14:18.000 It wasn't like mathematical knowing.

01:14:20.000 So this must be this type of thing, I'm thinking.

01:14:23.000 Because Plato's Republic actually went and influenced Christians in early Christianity.

01:14:29.000 So this idea seems to not be just specifically Christian, as you say.

01:14:34.000 We saw some photos of Egyptians.

01:14:38.000 Yes.

01:14:39.000 Fascinating.

01:14:40.000 All throughout history.

01:14:41.000 Yeah.

01:14:41.000 And then all throughout history, the use of psychedelics.

01:14:44.000 I'm sure you're aware of Brian Morescu's work.

01:14:47.000 Oh, yeah.

01:14:47.000 I know him.

01:14:48.000 Yeah.

01:14:48.000 Okay.

01:14:48.000 Yeah.

01:14:49.000 So that whole thing, the Eleusinian mysteries.

01:14:53.000 That's right.

01:14:53.000 Yeah.

01:14:54.000 That was all about that.

01:14:56.000 That's right.

01:14:57.000 Are you aware of Maria Sabina?

01:14:59.000 Yes.

01:15:00.000 Yes.

01:15:00.000 Okay.

01:15:01.000 So when I was young, I learned about her and how she worked with psilocybin to heal people.

01:15:11.000 And when she died, I think it was in the 1980s, the president of Mexico announced it.

01:15:16.000 So in that culture, it was well known.

01:15:19.000 And she called the psilocybin, the mushrooms, little saints.

01:15:23.000 Yeah.

01:15:24.000 Did you ever read John Marco Allegro's work?

01:15:27.000 No, I haven't.

01:15:28.000 Do you know of it?

01:15:29.000 No, I probably have read it.

01:15:32.000 I've read a lot of books, so I may have just forgotten.

01:15:35.000 John Marco Allegro was an ordained minister who became an agnostic when he started studying theology.

01:15:40.000 And he was one of the people that was studying the Dead Sea Scrolls.

01:15:46.000 And he studied the Dead Sea Scrolls for 14 years, and he wrote The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

01:15:51.000 Okay, yes, I do know that book.

01:15:53.000 Yes, yeah, yeah.

01:15:54.000 And then he wrote—that one got—I think it got bought out by the Catholic Church.

01:16:00.000 And you can get old copies of it, but then it was just re-released a few years back.

01:16:06.000 But the—then he wrote something in the Christian myth.

01:16:11.000 I forget what it was.

01:16:12.000 Sacred Mushroom and the Christian Myth.

01:16:14.000 Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, and then there was another one he wrote that he published after that other one was bought out that you can—that's readily available.

01:16:23.000 But this guy studied the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is the oldest version of the Bible that we know of.

01:16:29.000 It's written in Aramaic.

01:16:31.000 And the Dead Sea Scrolls is a particularly meticulous transcription.

01:16:37.000 The way they had to transcribe this is very bizarre because it's written on parchment, which is animal skin.

01:16:42.000 So they had to do DNA tests on the various pieces of parchment to make sure that they came from the same piece.

01:16:49.000 Because the idea that they'd be from different cows.

01:16:51.000 So they take this parchment skin. 0.99

01:16:54.000 They're laying it out.

01:16:55.000 They do DNA tests on it to make sure it's all from the same...

01:16:58.000 And then they try to piece together what it is.

01:16:59.000 And not all of it is even available.

01:17:02.000 Jamie, chuck me that up.

01:17:03.000 Behind you to the right.

01:17:04.000 Thank you.

01:17:07.000 And...

01:17:07.000 His conclusion after all of this, the summary of his conclusion was the entire Christian religion was all about psychedelic experiences and fertility rituals.

01:17:18.000 And that this was what all these stories really meant.

01:17:21.000 And he even connected the word for Christ to an ancient Sumerian word which meant a mushroom covered in God's semen.

01:17:33.000 Mm-hmm.

01:17:47.000 And that they wrote these things down.

01:17:50.000 First it was an oral tradition for who knows how long and then they wrote them down and then, you know, it gets transcribed to Greek and Latin and English and it's all...

01:17:59.000 And a lot is missing out of those translations.

01:18:02.000 A lot of it is missing even from the ancient Hebrew translation because the words in ancient Hebrew had numerical value.

01:18:09.000 Yes, that's true.

01:18:10.000 Which is a very complicated language where like the word love and the word God have the same numerical value.

01:18:18.000 And the numerical value in words is very important to what the meaning of these sentences and what these phrases meant.

01:18:24.000 And we lose a lot of that.

01:18:26.000 We also lose people's gender through these translations.

01:18:31.000 So some early apostles who are women are called men in the translation from Greek to Latin.

01:18:39.000 So I'm aware of this idea and, of course, Brian's work as well.

01:18:44.000 And in my field, we have categories for, obviously, like medicine has different categories.

01:18:53.000 And that's one category, is entheogens and different types of religions.

01:18:58.000 So the early Christian church, I would say that I don't agree that all of Christian tradition is this.

01:19:05.000 I would say that there definitely is a lot of it.

01:19:08.000 But there are also other types of, you know, Christian traditions.

01:19:13.000 I mean, when I look at the Jesus movement in the first century, it, to me, looks like a philosophical school, like Plato.

01:19:19.000 And, you know, Plato did the mysteries, you know, and, but I don't know if, I think Jesus was part of an Essene movement, like the John the Baptist is Jewish.

01:19:28.000 He's out in the desert and, you know, they're practicing these water rites and they basically are, you know, they have their own community.

01:19:37.000 And he looked like he was part of – he had been baptized into this community.

01:19:41.000 So the Jews in the first century are just trying to survive because Rome is killing them and destroying – they're going to destroy their temple.

01:19:50.000 So a lot of these communities – so that's one interpretation and I'm not discounting that that's correct for those traditions.

01:20:00.000 But there are other traditions that are not – they're not – No, I'm sure.

01:20:05.000 Filled with entheogens and things like that.

01:20:07.000 I'm just letting – just being accurate.

01:20:08.000 That's all I could do.

01:20:09.000 No, I'm sure there's a lot.

01:20:11.000 I mean you're – Yeah, it was super diverse.

01:20:13.000 Today, look at how diverse it is.

01:20:16.000 So I think there are thousands of – well, there are thousands of Protestant denominations of – and there's Catholicism and – So we have so many different—and even Catholics don't even know what they're supposed to believe.

01:20:29.000 So some here believe this, some over here believe that.

01:20:32.000 They have the same mass that they go to, but their belief structures are different.

01:20:37.000 So that leads us to one of the most fascinating interpretations of what we're experiencing collectively when it comes to this UFO, UAP, whatever it is, phenomenon, that this is not— A thing from another planet that comes on a spaceship and lands here to show us how to do things correctly.

01:21:00.000 But that they've always been here.

01:21:02.000 And that they are the things that are being described in Ezekiel.

01:21:07.000 That they are a phenomenon that is both here and not here at the same time.

01:21:15.000 That you are literally dealing with angels and demons.

01:21:24.000 This phenomenon is connected to these ancient stories of religion.

01:21:29.000 And it's not as simple as other beings like us from somewhere else.

01:21:36.000 Okay.

01:21:37.000 Yeah.

01:21:38.000 So I can respond to that.

01:21:41.000 All right.

01:21:42.000 So because you said a huge amount of information in there, and I'm going to parse out some of that and tell you just about what I think.

01:21:54.000 So part of why I continued to study this was that I saw that the historical record included a lot of these events.

01:22:04.000 And these events were weird back then, just like they're weird today.

01:22:08.000 Right.

01:22:08.000 And when you look at these events back in that time period, you also see a common pattern that happens today.

01:22:14.000 And what is that pattern?

01:22:15.000 That pattern is that, you know, let's take St. Francis of Assisi's stigmata.

01:22:21.000 I don't know if you want to show, you know...

01:22:24.000 Sure.

01:22:25.000 So if you look at his stigmata, where it looks like he's being, you know, basically radiated by a UFO... That's what my students say when they go and they see this in the Louvre and such.

01:22:37.000 If you look at the primary sources for that, this happens in the 1200s, and you look at what, yeah, so that.

01:22:46.000 So here you see St. Francis, but also over here on the right you see his friend Brother Leo.

01:22:52.000 Brother Leo actually at the time is probably 15 or something like that.

01:22:56.000 15?

01:22:56.000 Yeah, he's really young.

01:22:57.000 Hard life back then.

01:22:58.000 Dude looks 80. Well, he doesn't actually look like that.

01:23:02.000 So the artists actually are not getting at the primary sources.

01:23:08.000 And that's what similar things are happening today.

01:23:11.000 So the representations that we get in the media don't look at all like an abduction.

01:23:16.000 They don't look at all what people experience.

01:23:18.000 And so what I did was I went through a lot of the primary source materials for...

01:23:23.000 Teresa of Avila has a weird experience that looks like an abduction...

01:23:28.000 But they look beautiful.

01:23:29.000 They're domesticated.

01:23:30.000 They're made to look a lot more happy or something like that.

01:23:34.000 And I think part of the reason for that I don't think is intentional.

01:23:37.000 I think because it's traumatic.

01:23:39.000 I think because once you recognize the people themselves are traumatized by this in both good and bad ways.

01:23:46.000 Okay?

01:23:46.000 So this experience is still happening.

01:23:50.000 To call it angels and demons is accurate except for one part.

01:23:55.000 And because there are bad things that happen.

01:23:57.000 Sometimes people get hurt.

01:23:59.000 Francis died from that wound or he died from wounds later.

01:24:04.000 That, you know, were bleeding until—so when he had this experience, until he died, which was about a year and a half later, they tried to keep it silent in his monastery because they were—they didn't know what happened to him.

01:24:17.000 And they were horrified by it, okay?

01:24:20.000 And so until he died, they didn't actually tell anybody.

01:24:22.000 So he kept it between him, Brother Leo, and probably another monk.

01:24:26.000 So there's this idea of shame almost, you know?

01:24:29.000 This is like, you know, shameful.

01:24:33.000 But also this idea that bad things happen, and that's why people say, well, you know, demonic or something like that.

01:24:40.000 And people do experience these things in different ways, and they still do.

01:24:45.000 They still do.

01:24:46.000 But what should we call it?

01:24:48.000 Should we then use the terminology of people from 100 years ago and call it angels and demons?

01:24:54.000 I don't think we should.

01:24:55.000 I think that what we have to do is we have to take case by case, look at patterns, and maybe just try to proceed with different language because some of the things are really interesting.

01:25:05.000 If you do look at, say, experiences that Catholics have, say, in the 1960s that have been videotaped, okay, so Virgin Mary experiences where the Virgin Mary appears, and she reads people's minds and she's doing these kinds of things, levitating people together.

01:25:23.000 If you put physics on that case, physicists on that case, and if you take the work of those people who are working at, I think it's the University of Washington, where they're doing MRI imaging of what people are thinking and they're able to replicate it.

01:25:36.000 So if they're looking at a Van Gogh painting, they can replicate that.

01:25:39.000 Well, this looks like a technology.

01:25:42.000 Hmm.

01:25:42.000 So that's what I'm trying to say is that there's something going on that could possibly be different and we need different language for it.

01:25:50.000 And I think we're at the very beginning, just like doing this stuff with DMT, we're at the very beginning of learning about this other world.

01:25:59.000 Another thing that's fascinating about ancient religious art is the halo.

01:26:04.000 Yeah.

01:26:05.000 Have you ever seen the earlier depictions of the halo where it looks like a mushroom cap?

01:26:11.000 That is wild.

01:26:13.000 Because it seems to be that what they're trying to say is that this person is under the influence of the entheogens.

01:26:22.000 I mean, it's a literal representation of a mushroom cap.

01:26:26.000 It changes over time and over history.

01:26:29.000 And it becomes different and it eventually becomes like a hula hoop around your head.

01:26:32.000 But the earlier versions all look like a mushroom cap.

01:26:37.000 They have the lines of the mushroom cap.

01:26:39.000 Jesus is depicted there.

01:26:40.000 The enlightened ones, the saints, the religious figures that are of prominence, they all have that mushroom cap experience behind their head.

01:26:51.000 Even the Buddha, that photo of the Buddha there with the halo, click on that, the statue, yeah.

01:26:57.000 Even that.

01:26:59.000 I mean, they all have this thing behind them, which you could interpret as these people are under the influence.

01:27:11.000 Okay, I agree with you that mushrooms are seen in Catholic churches near Guatemala, down in Mexico and things like that, in Laid.

01:27:27.000 But I would have to suggest that there might be more going on.

01:27:31.000 So I'm going to push back on your interpretation.

01:27:34.000 Although I'm not going to say that psilocybin and mushrooms aren't part of that iconography.

01:27:43.000 I would say that a lot of the iconography is going to be something about the light that emanates from people Who are accessing these realms.

01:27:54.000 And I say that because there are...

01:27:58.000 I've read so many reports and they're not...

01:28:00.000 I think that if some of the monks and nuns who report being lit up right in their cells and things like that, if they were doing psilocybin, if they were doing mushrooms, they would have said so.

01:28:11.000 They would have written it because they write a lot.

01:28:13.000 So the Catholics have immense records.

01:28:16.000 You know, they took good notes.

01:28:17.000 Well, I don't think it's the only way to do it.

01:28:19.000 Oh, I know.

01:28:20.000 I think it's something that they discovered.

01:28:24.000 Oh, for sure.

01:28:25.000 I think it's a part of it.

01:28:27.000 I do.

01:28:27.000 Yeah, I think that.

01:28:29.000 So the magnetism of this kind of light that's happening, you can see that even in the Shroud of Turin, which is, by the way, an anomalous artifact.

01:28:57.000 But the Shroud of Turin is only 500 years old.

01:29:01.000 Well, not necessarily.

01:29:02.000 Really?

01:29:03.000 Yeah.

01:29:04.000 So there are certain parts of it that could have been repaired that are 500 years old.

01:29:10.000 So the problem is there is a whole department of the—you should get this priest on here, by the way.

01:29:16.000 You'd have a really good discussion with him.

01:29:18.000 He's an expert on the Shroud of Turin, and he just came out with new research that's been done about six months ago.

01:29:25.000 And there's a whole department in the Vatican just for— I'm not doing research on the Shroud of Turin.

01:29:31.000 So it's not necessarily just 500 years old.

01:29:35.000 There are different parts of it.

01:29:37.000 You know how you were talking about the parchment?

01:29:39.000 Is the Shroud of Turin real after all?

01:29:43.000 1988 report wrote off the relic as a medieval fake, but now the science seems to be turning.

01:29:47.000 Could it have been a miracle all along?

01:29:50.000 Fascinating.

01:29:52.000 Okay.

01:29:54.000 Let's see what it says.

01:29:55.000 Other than just that.

01:29:56.000 170 peer-reviewed academic papers on the Shroud have been published in scientific and archaeological journals around the world.

01:30:02.000 Despite all the attention, there's little consensus to just how ancient this ancient linen really is or what it actually shows.

01:30:09.000 The record places the Shroud in—how do you say that?

01:30:13.000 Lyrie?

01:30:13.000 Leary?

01:30:14.000 L-I-R-E-Y? Northern France for four years until 1357, the Alpine town of Chambury from 1502 to 1578 where it was damaged by fire before being passed to the Dukes of Savoy in 1578. The Savoys moved to their capital Turin I think?

01:30:50.000 Patifille.

01:30:51.000 Patifille has recently published a seriously reviewed 400-page analysis of all the archaeological and scientific studies so far.

01:30:59.000 And in Italy, the peer-reviewed findings of a specialist x-ray study by a team of physicists indicate that the fabric is potentially up to 2,000 years old.

01:31:08.000 There are now six studies which challenge the idea that Turin Shroud has nothing more than a cunning piece of medieval trickery.

01:31:15.000 Could it be something more?

01:31:16.000 The cloth?

01:31:18.000 Which has been the object of mass veneration by Catholic faithful for centuries was acquired by a French knight, Geoffrey de Charney.

01:31:29.000 How do you say that?

01:31:30.000 How would you say that?

01:31:31.000 Charney.

01:31:34.000 I'm not quite sure.

01:31:37.000 We're good to go.

01:31:58.000 Reported the analysis and identification of dust and pollen samples extracted by an adhesive which suggests that the shroud may have undergone a journey from the ancient Near East after the sack of Constantinople in 1204. Still,

01:32:20.000 were it not for the poignant image of its folds, chances are it would have disappeared into the mores of other spurious relics kept in thousands of churches all over Western Europe.

01:32:33.000 And Petit Fils' latest book, how do you say it?

01:32:37.000 Petit Fils?

01:32:38.000 Petit Fils?

01:32:39.000 Petit Fils is what I would say.

01:32:42.000 Petit Fils?

01:32:49.000 The Holy Shroud of Turin witness to the Passion of Jesus Christ.

01:32:53.000 He examines more than a hundred years of historical, archaeological, and scientific research.

01:32:57.000 His conclusion, the cloth has all the characteristics of authenticity.

01:33:01.000 Hmm.

01:33:03.000 Interesting.

01:33:05.000 Interesting.

01:33:06.000 Go back.

01:33:09.000 Even those who reject the idea the shroud is a 2,000-year-old sepulchral cloth, he writes, are unable to explain the imprint of the body.

01:33:24.000 Adversaries of the authenticity of the shroud come up against an enigma.

01:33:29.000 That this one cannot be the work of a counterfeiter because to make such an image would have required unknown scientific knowledge in the Middle Ages.

01:33:39.000 The image is not a painting, no trace of brush strokes, no outline has been observed even under electron microscope.

01:33:46.000 We must exclude the hypothesis of a smear, the application of a base relief of wood or marble, or a metal statue heated and placed on the cloth.

01:33:56.000 It was a Catholic Church itself unwittingly sparked what would become a global obsession with the shroud in 1898 when it gave the green light to a rare public exhibition of the cloth.

01:34:08.000 Secundopia, an amateur, became the first to photograph the linen's strange sepia shadows and the high contrast created by black and white photography.

01:34:38.000 Yeah, that's it.

01:34:42.000 Yeah.

01:34:43.000 Yeah.

01:34:46.000 How bizarre.

01:34:47.000 Where are the puncture wounds?

01:34:48.000 Is that what we're seeing in his stomach area?

01:34:52.000 Yeah, right?

01:34:54.000 And that is where they didn't go through the hands.

01:34:56.000 They did go through the wrists when they crucified people.

01:34:58.000 And then there also appears to be something in his stomach.

01:35:01.000 Like if you look above his right arm, right above the wrist, that looks like a wound.

01:35:06.000 Which is what is detailed in the Bible.

01:35:08.000 Yeah.

01:35:10.000 Very strange.

01:35:14.000 So if that really is 2,000 years old, very bizarre.

01:35:17.000 Very bizarre.

01:35:22.000 Hmm.

01:35:24.000 Yeah.

01:35:25.000 You ever hear of the Second Coming Project?

01:35:28.000 No.

01:35:29.000 I used to have a joke about it.

01:35:30.000 Second Coming Project was a group of people that were, it was either a troll, they were joking around, or they were serious about it, where they wanted to obtain DNA from the Shroud of Turin and clone Jesus.

01:35:46.000 And that's how Jesus would come back.

01:35:47.000 Oh, I have heard about this.

01:35:48.000 That's right.

01:35:49.000 That's right.

01:35:49.000 That's hilarious.

01:35:50.000 Yeah.

01:35:51.000 Wow, that would be so weird.

01:35:53.000 Imagine.

01:35:54.000 That's how they do it.

01:35:56.000 That would be so amazing.

01:35:58.000 Yeah, that would kind of, I mean, that wouldn't create immaculate conception, but it kind of would.

01:36:07.000 It seems like it, right?

01:36:08.000 I mean, it's not birthed from a virgin, but it's similar in that regard.

01:36:13.000 But that's one of the things that I had a conversation with Taylor Sheridan the other day.

01:36:17.000 We were discussing, like, what is the Bible trying to say when it describes certain things?

01:36:21.000 But in the beginning, there was light and how God created everything in six days.

01:36:26.000 God, doesn't that sound like the Big Bang?

01:36:28.000 Like, through the telephone game?

01:36:30.000 I think so.

01:36:31.000 Yeah, so the Catholic Church and science go together.

01:36:35.000 Like, even Catholics can believe in evolution. 0.93

01:36:37.000 They don't generally know that.

01:36:39.000 They believe in evolution.

01:36:40.000 It's just theistic evolution.

01:36:42.000 Right.

01:36:43.000 That's all.

01:36:43.000 Right.

01:36:44.000 And most Catholics don't know that, and I don't know why. 1.00

01:36:46.000 But Catholics, yeah, we're scientific.

01:36:49.000 I've been messing around with this idea over the last few years that the universe itself is God.

01:36:55.000 I think, yeah, I mean...

01:36:57.000 This idea that, like, God created the universe, maybe it is God.

01:37:02.000 I mean, if you want to talk about something that's all-powerful, beyond comprehension, is responsible for every single thing in the cosmos, it is the universe.

01:37:19.000 That all has some sort of law that keeps it together.

01:37:23.000 Like an intelligence.

01:37:24.000 Yes.

01:37:25.000 Yeah.

01:37:25.000 And it's completely mysterious.

01:37:27.000 One of the things you talked about in your book that's really fascinating was the Apollo 10 when they were hearing space music.

01:37:33.000 Yeah.

01:37:33.000 And they didn't want to talk about it.

01:37:34.000 No, they didn't.

01:37:35.000 What did they describe it like?

01:37:37.000 You can hear it actually online.

01:37:39.000 Really?

01:37:40.000 Yeah.

01:37:40.000 Let's hear it.

01:37:42.000 Apollo 10 space music. 0.99

01:37:44.000 Let's fucking go. 0.99

01:37:45.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:37:47.000 Maybe this has been my new workout music.

01:37:52.000 Space music.

01:37:53.000 I didn't know you could hear it online.

01:37:54.000 It really freaked them out.

01:37:55.000 I would imagine.

01:37:56.000 Dr. Aya Whiteley, she's a space psychologist. 0.95

01:37:59.000 She's the one who told me about it and said you should put this as a quote before my information because she talked about how they didn't want to report it because it was so weird.

01:38:08.000 And that's the whole idea of this two data set.

01:38:11.000 There are two data sets for UFO reporting.

01:38:14.000 Like, pilots will see stuff, but they won't report it.

01:38:16.000 Right.

01:38:17.000 Or they'll see stuff and they'll report stuff, but they won't...

01:38:20.000 Let's listen, I guess.

01:38:21.000 Here we go.

01:38:23.000 You want some more brownies? 1.00

01:38:25.000 No.

01:38:32.000 That music even sounds outer spacey, doesn't it?

01:38:35.000 You hear that?

01:38:36.000 That whistling sound?

01:38:38.000 Yeah.

01:38:39.000 Woo! 0.99

01:38:41.000 Wait, you're...

01:38:44.000 Yeah, it sounds like, you know, outer space-type music.

01:38:50.000 Hey, Tom, is your insulation all burned off here on the front side of your window over here?

01:38:56.000 Yeah.

01:39:00.000 Mine's all burned off.

01:39:02.000 Heading out here, where are you, John?

01:39:22.000 This goes on for five minutes.

01:39:24.000 I don't know.

01:39:24.000 So it's just that sound.

01:39:27.000 I think it's the sound.

01:39:28.000 There are two tones.

01:39:30.000 There's kind of like this high-pitched sound and then that sound.

01:39:33.000 Yeah.

01:39:42.000 Yeah, and you're also getting it, it's a recording from inside, and obviously it's not going to sound exactly how they were hearing it.

01:39:52.000 This video can't be, it's not, it's just video, I think like stock video of them on the...

01:39:58.000 Mission.

01:39:59.000 Oh, so this is not the video of them experiencing it?

01:40:03.000 No way.

01:40:03.000 The audio would be recorded separately from this, and I think someone just mixed this together, so there's something to look at.

01:40:08.000 Let's see if there's just a recording of the audio itself without these guys.

01:40:11.000 This is the one that said full audio.

01:40:13.000 I don't know.

01:40:14.000 This is from CBS. I don't know.

01:40:18.000 Sounds the same.

01:40:23.000 Woo! 0.99

01:40:27.000 That sounds like it.

01:40:30.000 Wow.

01:40:31.000 Mystery music heard space.

01:40:36.000 What the hell is that?

01:40:38.000 Yeah.

01:40:39.000 What do they think it is?

01:40:41.000 Well, what happens now, I don't know what they think it is, but I do know that they train astronauts for it now.

01:40:47.000 They have simulations, so when astronauts go into space, they're not surprised by stuff.

01:40:51.000 So this is a common occurrence?

01:40:53.000 There are so many weird things that happen.

01:40:55.000 Like one thing that happened to them when they were in space, now this is getting back to the two data sets.

01:41:00.000 So they've worked their whole lives to go into space, so they can't indicate that in any way they're mentally unstable.

01:41:08.000 So when they go there and they come back, certain things happen.

01:41:11.000 So one thing that happened was they were seeing like flashes of light when they came back down to Earth, but they wouldn't tell anybody.

01:41:19.000 And then finally, a bunch of them said, do you see this flashlight?

01:41:22.000 Like when you close your eyes, you see light and everything like that.

01:41:25.000 And they agreed that if they all reported it, they couldn't get fired.

01:41:29.000 So this is how they were able to report weird stuff that they saw in space.

01:41:34.000 Isn't that crazy that exploring the outside of Earth, you have to be careful about what you say because people think you're crazy.

01:41:42.000 That's right.

01:41:43.000 That's right.

01:41:43.000 Isn't that bizarre?

01:41:44.000 Well, yeah.

01:41:45.000 So it's these two data sets.

01:41:46.000 So it happens here when people have – when they see things and then they have these strange things that happen.

01:41:52.000 They don't – they tell authorities this stuff.

01:41:55.000 Okay, yeah, I saw this.

01:41:56.000 It was unknown.

01:41:56.000 I don't know what it was.

01:41:58.000 But then they tell their friends and family – I actually had this feeling that it was looking at me and this is why I think that.

01:42:04.000 And so they tell their subjective kind of weird things, you know, to their families and their family friends.

01:42:10.000 So yeah, so you get that with astronauts too.

01:42:15.000 Who is that?

01:42:16.000 The front of the line when it comes to this stuff.

01:42:20.000 Like, who has been studying this the longest that has the greatest body of information available?

01:42:27.000 About space and stuff?

01:42:29.000 About the emergent phenomenon of some sort of contact.

01:42:35.000 Okay, this is a hard question to answer because there is a person, but will this person say everything this person knows?

01:42:45.000 Probably not.

01:42:46.000 Okay, so, but there is an official NASA historian.

01:42:50.000 Who, in my opinion, knows way more than he actually writes about, but he's written a heck of a lot.

01:42:56.000 And his name is Stephen Dick.

01:43:00.000 What an unfortunate name.

01:43:01.000 Well, yeah, but it is his name.

01:43:04.000 And he has an amazing body of work that anybody who's interested in this should read.

01:43:09.000 He was also, at the very beginning, kind of in...

01:43:13.000 He was part of the initial stages of creating astrobiology and... 0.88

01:43:18.000 Yeah, astrobiology.

01:43:19.000 And what leads you to believe that he's holding back information?

01:43:23.000 Well, when I go back and I'm in contact with him, and when I read what he's written, I can see that he was at the forefront of looking at this like AI back like 25 years ago.

01:43:36.000 He was already talking about it, saying this is AI. ET is going to be AI, and this is why.

01:43:42.000 And then kind of doing timelines and things like that.

01:43:46.000 And also just conversations that I've had with him that are, you know...

01:43:54.000 Basically, correspondences that indicate to me that I think he probably has some information.

01:44:00.000 But he, you know, a lot of this is classified.

01:44:02.000 Right.

01:44:03.000 And probably for good reason.

01:44:05.000 What good reason?

01:44:06.000 I don't know.

01:44:10.000 Yeah.

01:44:12.000 This is from his Wikipedia on astrobiology.

01:44:16.000 I thought this...

01:44:18.000 Mmm.

01:44:18.000 They argued since the ancient Greeks, extraterrestrial life has been a theme tied to scientific cosmologies.

01:44:25.000 Including the ancient atomist, Copernican, Cartesian, and the Newtonian worldviews.

01:44:33.000 Dick argues that from an epistemological point of view, the methods of astrobiology in the 20th century are as empirical as in any historical science such as astronomy or geology.

01:44:48.000 Dick has also surveyed the field of astrobiology and critical issues in the history, philosophy, and sociology of astrobiology.

01:44:56.000 On December 4, 2013, while holding the NASA Library of Congress Chair in Astrobiology, Dick testified on astrobiology before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, arguing that SETI funding should be restored and integrated with the NASA astrobiology program.

01:45:18.000 Hold on, go back to that.

01:45:22.000 This part.

01:45:23.000 The Intelligence Principle...

01:45:24.000 Yeah, this is it.

01:45:25.000 This is the thing that he worked on, like, more than 20 years ago.

01:45:28.000 ...is a hypothetical idea of Dick's in the field of cultural evolution.

01:45:33.000 Outlined in his 2003 paper, Cultural Evolution in the Post-biological Universe and SETI, the Intelligence Principle describes a potential binding tendency among all intelligent societies, both terrestrial and extraterrestrial.

01:45:48.000 The maintenance, improvement, and perpetuation of knowledge and intelligence is the central driving force of cultural evolution.

01:45:57.000 And that, to the extent intelligence can be improved, it will be improved.

01:46:03.000 It doesn't actually have the next line that he writes about and says, and if it's not improved, it will be to the detriment of that society.

01:46:13.000 That certainly seems to be true.

01:46:17.000 Yeah.

01:46:17.000 So it's him, but also, Joe, it's not just him.

01:46:22.000 There's a group.

01:46:23.000 They're called the Invisible College, and I'm not going to name who they are.

01:46:25.000 People can search them to find out their names.

01:46:28.000 But they're part of this oral tradition and this hidden tradition that's been at the forefront of doing this type of work for over 50, 60, 70 years.

01:46:39.000 Yeah.

01:46:42.000 So what has it been like for you to go from a person that before you visit this crash site you think this is all nonsense to where you are now, having written two books about it and very careful with your words and realizing how bizarre this is to now having this conversation with me in front of millions of people.

01:47:03.000 What has this been like for you?

01:47:07.000 Yes, it's been life changing.

01:47:09.000 Okay, so that's definitely a fact.

01:47:12.000 And in the beginning, it was uncomfortable.

01:47:17.000 But I learned, this is where I learned about, you know, you're talking about the pineal gland, and this is how I learned about this access.

01:47:25.000 And I learned it through communities that are associated with this study.

01:47:29.000 So I've learned about human potential.

01:47:31.000 And I think that that's probably what's impacted me more than anything.

01:47:36.000 And I also learned about structural evil in societies.

01:47:41.000 And how has it been for me?

01:47:45.000 I think it's been great.

01:47:47.000 Really?

01:47:48.000 Yeah.

01:47:48.000 I mean, I thought about it the other day because there were times when I said, I don't want to do this anymore.

01:47:54.000 And I think that – I thought, you know, I think the bad times have been worth it.

01:48:01.000 The scary parts have been worth it.

01:48:04.000 Mm-hmm.

01:48:05.000 Because I went into this wanting to know, right?

01:48:10.000 I'm a professor of religion.

01:48:12.000 I mean, I want to know.

01:48:13.000 And I wanted to be a professor of religion since I was 11. Wow.

01:48:18.000 Yeah, and now I am.

01:48:19.000 That's cool to know what you want to do when you're 11. Yeah, it was pretty weird.

01:48:24.000 But I knew.

01:48:25.000 And now I feel like I'm getting answers.

01:48:28.000 And it's not like I know conclusively.

01:48:31.000 Part of it is that...

01:48:33.000 I think?

01:48:48.000 I often struggle with the concept that the human mind is incapable of grasping the truth.

01:48:53.000 That even if it was presented to us, we don't have the capability to truly incorporate it into our, not just worldview, but universe view, life view, existence view.

01:49:06.000 That it's too baffling.

01:49:08.000 We're not quite ready yet.

01:49:10.000 It's like showing Australopithecus a cell phone. 0.99

01:49:13.000 It's like, what the fuck is this? 1.00

01:49:16.000 What is this? 0.99

01:49:17.000 We're not ready for it yet.

01:49:18.000 And I really wonder with the emergence of artificial intelligence and what seems to me at least to be the inevitable not just incorporation of it into our lives, which has already happened, but incorporation into it biologically.

01:49:34.000 I feel like that is a step that we're taking that seems inevitable.

01:49:40.000 That seems there's going to be some sort of convergence, a merging of human consciousness I think artificial intelligence is the wrong term.

01:49:52.000 I don't think it's artificial at all.

01:49:54.000 I think it's a type of intelligence that's created by the human being and the human being is biologically hindered by the fact that biological evolution is so slow and technological evolution is so insanely rapid, especially if sentient artificial intelligence It becomes capable of creating its own version of artificial intelligence.

01:50:18.000 And it's not hindered by the biological limitations of the human mind.

01:50:23.000 You know, I think Elon said it best, and you talked about it in this book, that we're the biological bootloader.

01:50:31.000 I've described it before I heard that, that we're a caterpillar that's creating a cocoon to give birth to the electronic butterfly.

01:50:41.000 And that this is also what fuels not just innovation, but materialism.

01:50:47.000 Materialism is inexorably connected to innovation.

01:50:50.000 Because one of the things about materialism is everybody wants the newest, latest, greatest thing.

01:50:55.000 And status is attached to those things.

01:50:56.000 We buy new cell phones.

01:50:58.000 Like, my friend had an iPhone.

01:51:00.000 My friend's hilarious.

01:51:02.000 My friend Eddie Bravo, he had an iPhone 13. And I go, why'd you get the 13?

01:51:05.000 He goes, they gave it to me for free.

01:51:07.000 And I was like, didn't you want a 15?

01:51:09.000 He's like, doesn't it do the same thing?

01:51:11.000 I'm like, it really does.

01:51:12.000 But I wanted a 15 when it came out.

01:51:14.000 I have zero difference between my 15 and my 14. But how do you get the 15?

01:51:20.000 You know, it's like there's something connected to us that wants the latest, greatest, and we're connected to this idea of materialism.

01:51:28.000 And if you looked at the human being, Yeah.

01:51:52.000 It's all about better things.

01:51:54.000 It's all about more control so that they have more access to more materials, to more better things.

01:52:01.000 And that always, if you're dealing with intelligence and you're dealing with technological evolution and technological innovation, it's going to lead to artificial life or a life, a new kind of life.

01:52:15.000 A new kind of life.

01:52:16.000 Yeah.

01:52:16.000 And that might be the kind of life that literally becomes a god.

01:52:22.000 If you think about it, if it continues to get, like there's, I was looking at this video that was on YouTube that was showing the stages of artificial intelligence and that there's these multiple stages, artificial and general intelligence,

01:52:38.000 sentient general intelligence, and then it goes to godlike Artificial intelligence.

01:52:43.000 But that is, is that what God is?

01:52:46.000 And is that what we're doing?

01:52:48.000 Are we making God?

01:52:49.000 If God made us in his own image, are we making God?

01:52:52.000 Is that what this whole thing is about?

01:52:53.000 Well, you know, these are some of the questions that I have when I go back to looking at some of the characteristics of these, like the Virgin Mary sightings and things like that.

01:53:03.000 Like, we now have technologies that can replicate what it seems like was happening during that event, you know, in Garabandal in Spain in the 1960s.

01:53:14.000 And if that's the case, then it looks like Stephen's idea of the intelligence principle is correct when he says that there will be intelligent beings that will appear like deities to us.

01:53:27.000 Which makes sense.

01:53:29.000 Yeah.

01:53:29.000 And he also says, you know, and I don't know if you've gotten to the chapter on Simone in the book, but she's a quantum AI person.

01:53:36.000 And she talks about UFOs and she hates the word artificial intelligence.

01:53:44.000 She says this completely, we don't like make a painting and then say, see this artificial, you know, we don't do that.

01:53:51.000 So why do we call it?

01:53:52.000 It's because she says we're afraid of it.

01:53:53.000 You know, we're afraid that it's going to be sentient.

01:53:56.000 And we're afraid, you know, she said, but it's just another life form that we happen to be doing, creating.

01:54:02.000 And she says it's special in that way, but it's also going to free us in many, many ways.

01:54:09.000 She's a tech optimist. 0.99

01:54:11.000 She's an accelerationist.

01:54:12.000 Yeah.

01:54:13.000 Well, I hope she's right.

01:54:16.000 She better be right.

01:54:17.000 Yeah.

01:54:18.000 It's happening no matter what.

01:54:19.000 Yeah.

01:54:19.000 But I mean, I think if you could go back again to Australopithecus and say, hey, man, one day you're going to be wrought with anxiety because it's...

01:54:26.000 Existential angst and you're going to be on antidepressants and living in a cubicle all day and doing – but that's the future.

01:54:33.000 It's progress. 1.00

01:54:33.000 You're like, fuck that. 1.00

01:54:35.000 I'd rather hang out here in the Savannah. 1.00

01:54:36.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:54:37.000 I think so.

01:54:38.000 I think it's this inevitable part of the process of whatever we're going through because we're not in a static state.

01:54:46.000 We're in a constant state of – Social upheaval, cultural upheaval, a change of perspectives, this constant battle to try to define things and to figure out what's appropriate and inappropriate and gaslighting people who disagree with you, which is also fascinating just to watch people do that.

01:55:04.000 It's fascinating to watch people try to put a positive spin on inherently evil things.

01:55:10.000 Yeah, it's pretty terrible.

01:55:11.000 It's horrible.

01:55:12.000 Yeah, it's a bad show.

01:55:14.000 Yeah, it's a weird show.

01:55:16.000 That's for sure.

01:55:17.000 It's a weird show.

01:55:18.000 But again, I do have this internal struggle with this concept of good and evil that perhaps the negative aspects are there to enlighten us and to let us know that our work is not done and that we have to move forward.

01:55:36.000 Into a direction that we know is just and good and correct and loving and that this is possible within small groups of people.

01:55:46.000 It's possible with individuals and ultimately must be possible with the collective.

01:55:51.000 It just has to be managed in some way or facilitated in some way.

01:55:56.000 And that it's not guaranteed.

01:55:58.000 And that if you look at World War II and look at the Holocaust, you look at the horrific things that human beings are capable of when they're allowed to just run rampant. 0.93

01:56:09.000 You talked about the Japanese horrors during World War II, like the rape of Nanking.

01:56:13.000 That's right.

01:56:13.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:56:14.000 That's right.

01:56:14.000 Oh, my God.

01:56:15.000 I remember reading that going, how are human beings capable of doing this?

01:56:20.000 The savagery.

01:56:21.000 Yeah.

01:56:21.000 Unbelievable.

01:56:22.000 Bizarre.

01:56:24.000 Bizarre in its cruelty.

01:56:26.000 Horrific.

01:56:27.000 And that seems to be evil.

01:56:31.000 That seems to be evil personified.

01:56:33.000 I think so.

01:56:34.000 I'm not afraid to say it.

01:56:35.000 Right.

01:56:35.000 It is a thing.

01:56:36.000 Evil's a real thing.

01:56:38.000 Like, evil's real.

01:56:39.000 I mean, as a professor teaching my students, I'm not going to say, oh yeah, evil is real.

01:56:44.000 But here I'm going to say, and I've said this on podcasts, you can't say that human trafficking is not evil.

01:56:50.000 Right.

01:56:51.000 That's evil.

01:56:52.000 Evil.

01:56:52.000 And let's just call it for what it is.

01:56:54.000 Yes.

01:56:55.000 Human medical experiments on children.

01:56:57.000 It's evil.

01:56:57.000 Evil.

01:56:58.000 Evil.

01:56:58.000 Yeah.

01:56:59.000 And we do it.

01:57:00.000 And we do it almost specifically for profit.

01:57:04.000 Always.

01:57:04.000 Which is also evil.

01:57:05.000 Yeah.

01:57:06.000 Yeah.

01:57:27.000 It's the development of this mystic state that we've been talking about that I think this is how we need to counter because we can't decide these are the rules we're going to follow.

01:57:40.000 People aren't going to follow those rules or they're going to follow those rules and cheat, right?

01:57:44.000 Or they're going to pretend to follow the rules.

01:57:47.000 But if people actually engaged in the type of thing that we were talking about, the thing they love, you know, that allows...

01:57:55.000 Then perhaps justice emerges, right?

01:57:58.000 Yes.

01:57:59.000 That's what I'm trying to point out to people.

01:58:02.000 These ideas have been around for a long time.

01:58:06.000 They're not new ideas, but we've never actually done them.

01:58:10.000 Small groups have done them.

01:58:12.000 So when you're alone with your thoughts, and you've been studying this for a long time now, what do you think the UFO phenomenon is?

01:58:24.000 So I think, first of all, that there are a lot of different varieties of it.

01:58:28.000 But when we look at, like we were looking at the Francis of Assisi and the kind of historical things and the abductions and things like that, I think that...

01:58:41.000 That it's been around for a long time and that these are things that are in communication with us.

01:58:49.000 So what I do in my book, both the books that I wrote about this, is I talk to people who I think represent thousands of people.

01:58:59.000 So each person in the book represents thousands, if not more, maybe many thousands of people who have had experiences and the ways in which they interpret them.

01:59:09.000 So all of the people seem to have had experiences where now what they want to do is they actually want to work for justice in different ways.

01:59:18.000 Like Jose, the veteran in my book, he's working with young people and helping them deal with being addicted to social media and things like that and helping them get through life, which is really hard right now.

01:59:29.000 And that's what he's doing.

01:59:32.000 And then you look at Dr. Whiteley, right?

01:59:34.000 So she's working in a space where she's trying to, you know, help people deal with the fact that they're seeing things that, you know, that could down planes and things like that.

01:59:44.000 And she's helping people talk about that.

01:59:46.000 She's helping people.

01:59:48.000 Each person in, you know, is somehow doing what I'm suggesting that I think is an out to this kind of structural injustice that we see.

01:59:58.000 So I think that this is a transformational thing without the drugs, is what's going on, like some kind of massive This experience that people are having and now it's getting out and people are being able to talk to each other through Reddit communities and different types of social media.

02:00:17.000 So it is – we did see religions when they begin.

02:00:23.000 They become viral at one point.

02:00:24.000 We've never seen it in an age where we have digital technology.

02:00:28.000 But this is what we're seeing now.

02:00:30.000 What do you think the physical objects are?

02:00:33.000 Well, okay, so this is something that's very interesting.

02:00:36.000 We just looked at the Shroud of Turin.

02:00:38.000 I believe that there are these, I would call them, and this is just my own non-scientific term, interdimensional objects.

02:00:48.000 They're objects that have characteristics of our dimension and some other dimension.

02:00:57.000 So some other dimension has the capability or something from some other dimension has the capability of transporting a physical object into our realm.

02:01:11.000 Or even imprinting onto a physical object.

02:01:15.000 Yeah.

02:01:15.000 How so?

02:01:16.000 Well, I don't know.

02:01:17.000 I mean, I think that's what...

02:01:18.000 What does that mean, imprinting onto a physical object?

02:01:21.000 So with the Shroud of Turin, we see the imprint of the image and...

02:01:24.000 If it's real.

02:01:24.000 Yeah, if it's real.

02:01:26.000 But it's an anomalous object.

02:01:28.000 So we do have, from Gary Nolan, engineered objects.

02:01:32.000 We don't know how they're engineered, but they definitely look like they're, you know, it's off planet.

02:01:40.000 I would call the kinds of things that we see in the historical record, interdimensional types of things.

02:01:45.000 Now, how?

02:01:46.000 I don't know, Joe.

02:01:48.000 Okay, so I just don't know.

02:01:49.000 But I do think that...

02:01:51.000 Scientists in the government know that these things exist, and they would like to figure it out.

02:01:56.000 And so part of disclosure, the disclosure movement, is outsourcing this and trying to get as many people as possible to help in figuring it out.

02:02:06.000 What do you think when they use the term donations, what do you think the purpose of that is?

02:02:14.000 If there is an object that is purposely released into our, you know, like I'm sure you're aware of cargo cults, right?

02:02:22.000 Yes.

02:02:22.000 So with cargo cults, for people that don't know, there's been some islands during World War I and World War II where planes landed there and they left and these people, they created these Yeah.

02:02:42.000 Yeah.

02:02:55.000 Yeah.

02:02:55.000 So, yeah, that in my field has been called the cargo cult, the UFO cargo cult, right?

02:03:01.000 And obviously, Tyler and James view these parts as, they call it the donation site, right?

02:03:09.000 So giving it the idea that- Is that just one theory?

02:03:13.000 Yeah, that's just one theory.

02:03:15.000 Are there other theories that there's a biological organism that encounters a lightning storm and it actually crashes and there's physical bodies?

02:03:22.000 Oh yeah, there is that.

02:03:24.000 Yeah, there's that.

02:03:25.000 What's your take on that?

02:03:26.000 Because that's one of the things that Grush talked about and some of the other people talked about that there are biological things that have been recovered.

02:03:35.000 Well, what impressed me about what he said was that he used the term biologics.

02:03:41.000 And I actually know that term because that's the same term that Tyler was talking about when he was creating materials in anti-gravity spaces on space shuttles and such.

02:03:52.000 So I was wondering, because David Grush does get his information from people allegedly in the programs, but he's never seen these materials that I know of.

02:04:03.000 I think he has some first-hand experience that he was not able to talk about that he's alluding to.

02:04:10.000 I think.

02:04:11.000 But this is recent, and he's been very careful about how he releases this information and what he's able to release and not able to release.

02:04:21.000 And that I was like, okay.

02:04:23.000 Yeah, so, I mean, I've not seen any bodies, nor have I seen intact craft, but I also have had, now remember, I don't have a clearance like he has, so I can actually talk about what people have told me.

02:04:37.000 I have had people tell me that, yes, Diana, there are intact craft.

02:04:41.000 I don't know.

02:04:43.000 I mean, maybe.

02:04:46.000 So, I don't know, Joe.

02:04:49.000 Have you studied Bob Lazar?

02:04:52.000 Okay, yes.

02:04:53.000 I've always asked about Bob Lazar.

02:04:55.000 And I don't know, but I can tell you that people that I've met who are associated with the programs tell me that he's right.

02:05:06.000 Now, I know his background, and I know all the things.

02:05:10.000 I don't have an opinion one way or the other.

02:05:13.000 But I can also say that a lot of times people...

02:05:24.000 I would think that that's sort of like a little escape clause.

02:05:29.000 Yeah, I think so.

02:05:30.000 I think it is.

02:05:31.000 I mean, the guy's obviously a genius and was obviously a propulsion expert. 0.98

02:05:35.000 He put a fucking jet engine on a Honda in the 1980s. 0.89

02:05:39.000 He's a fascinating guy. 0.99

02:05:42.000 And he claims that there's some element, some element that exists in other places in the universe.

02:05:51.000 Which leads me to believe...

02:05:53.000 Well, not even to believe, but like...

02:05:57.000 So here's the question.

02:05:59.000 Are some of these things from other planets?

02:06:01.000 Is that also in the equation?

02:06:05.000 Just because something is traveling interdimensionally, we do know that there are an infinite number of planets in the universe.

02:06:14.000 I mean, we have no idea how many of them are capable of supporting human-like life, or some other kind of life, or an infinite number of varieties of life.

02:06:26.000 And if that life can do what we've done, And get to some part of its progression where it's capable of creating what we're calling artificial intelligence or super advanced technology.

02:06:40.000 Why wouldn't it come here?

02:06:42.000 Yes.

02:06:43.000 I'm not discounting ET. So that could be there, too.

02:06:47.000 I think so, especially because of the ways in which the materials are being manufactured off-planet, like the ones that we just saw.

02:06:57.000 And that was in formation when I met Tyler in 2014, and now it's a full-on thing that's happening.

02:07:05.000 So it's a supercharged program of creating things that will help us.

02:07:12.000 Off-planet.

02:07:13.000 I mean certainly then – yeah, I think so.

02:07:17.000 I mean but I don't know.

02:07:18.000 So I have to just be honest.

02:07:20.000 So it might be a bunch of different things happening all at the same time, interdimensionally, extraterrestrially, something from a distant galaxy that's figured out some new method of propulsion that's beyond our imagination that can visit and then also things that are coming here from other dimensions.

02:07:41.000 Yes.

02:07:41.000 And even recently, somebody had, you know, yeah, well, I can't say anything.

02:07:47.000 I can't say I'm sorry.

02:07:48.000 I don't want to be that person that goes on your show and says, oh, I can't say that.

02:07:52.000 But I probably, most likely there are, if there's crash retrieval part, you know, crash retrievals here on Earth, perhaps there are in space as well.

02:08:07.000 Do you, when they talk about inventions that emerged post-Roswell, that's one of the points of speculation is that we have back-engineered something and that this led to the creation of fiber optics and a lot of other technologies that seem to emerge after that time.

02:08:29.000 Yeah.

02:08:30.000 So this question was prominent in my mind in 2012 when I met Jacques Vallée.

02:08:37.000 So I was already aware of his work, even as a person who hadn't studied UFOs or even believed in them.

02:08:44.000 Jacques Vallée is just one of these people, right, that you come across his work and he's fascinating.

02:08:50.000 I thought it was strange that not only was he a person who was, you know, pre-engineered ARPANET, right?

02:08:58.000 He was on ARPANET, which is pre-internet.

02:09:00.000 He was creating that at the same time as being obsessed with UFOs and doing, you know, being a ufologist.

02:09:07.000 These things seemed that they had to be together, right?

02:09:12.000 There was something that, you know, what's going on here?

02:09:15.000 So, and I'm in touch with him often.

02:09:19.000 And He says a lot of things that are rather cryptic, but sometimes I ask him specifically, was what you were doing on ARPnet related to back-engineered UFO parts?

02:09:36.000 And then he'd say something like, there are many secrets in Silicon Valley.

02:09:40.000 Something like that.

02:09:42.000 Yeah, he's real cryptic.

02:09:44.000 He's kind of difficult to have a conversation with publicly.

02:09:48.000 Well, it does have a lot.

02:09:49.000 I guess there are lots of secrets in Silicon Valley.

02:09:52.000 Of course.

02:09:52.000 Which is where he lives.

02:09:54.000 Yeah.

02:09:55.000 Another thing that was really fascinating about your book was you were talking about how much religion he studied.

02:10:01.000 Yes.

02:10:03.000 That was really interesting.

02:10:04.000 So in the book, what I do is I uncover not just him, but Alan Hynek.

02:10:09.000 They were friends.

02:10:10.000 And they were both Rosicrucians, which is a form of, he might not like me to say this, but it's a form of mystical Christianity in a sense.

02:10:19.000 But a lot of Rosicrucians don't view their roots as Christian.

02:10:23.000 They look at it as Egyptian and But it's basically, it's an esoteric tradition and it involves meditation.

02:10:32.000 I think it most likely involves this thing that you and I have been discussing in the whole talk so far is the pineal gland thing, you know, the access point.

02:10:42.000 Because both of them believe in this kind of life, this meditating and things like that.

02:10:48.000 And so I included references.

02:10:50.000 Everything I say in my books, by the way, I pass to the person that I'm writing the chapter about.

02:10:56.000 So everything that I said about Jacques, I gave it to him beforehand and I said, are you okay with me saying this publicly?

02:11:03.000 And so it passed all the tests.

02:11:07.000 And I also talk about going to his apartment and seeing his library, which is an amazing library.

02:11:14.000 And he has stained glass from Chartres Cathedral.

02:11:18.000 And Chartres Cathedral is a special place for Rosicrucians, like a special place of presence of the sacred.

02:11:26.000 And he actually did those himself.

02:11:28.000 So he learned how to do stained glass everywhere.

02:11:30.000 From people at Chartres, by the way.

02:11:32.000 And yeah, just amazing.

02:11:34.000 And he had a lot of books on angels and fallen angels in that library.

02:11:40.000 It was almost like going into the Vatican Archive, going into this place, because these looked like first editions or clothes.

02:11:48.000 So, you know, really, really old books about this topic.

02:11:51.000 Fallen angels.

02:11:52.000 Yeah.

02:11:53.000 I was pretty shocked when I went.

02:11:56.000 We were going to have lunch and talk about the crash site and maybe talk about what I learned from Tyler and that kind of thing.

02:12:02.000 And we went to lunch and then he said, do you want to see the library?

02:12:05.000 And I was like, yes, of course.

02:12:06.000 So I saw the handwritten documents from Project Blue Book and that was just going into the library.

02:12:14.000 That wasn't actually in the library.

02:12:15.000 Then when we got in there...

02:12:18.000 I noticed big bookcases of these books and of course I was drawn to them and he said he picked out one and he opened it and it was about angels and he said this is a book about angels and I could see that and I was looking at it and I said wow and then I looked at the other bookshelf and that bookshelf was just as impressive and then it was about fallen angels he said oh this one's about fallen angels and then he made a joke and he said you can't have one without the other and I thought that was really interesting That does seem to align

02:12:48.000 with what we're talking about, with like the struggle of good and evil.

02:12:52.000 It does.

02:12:53.000 That's what he said, too.

02:12:54.000 And I was actually shocked at that point.

02:12:57.000 I was like, wow.

02:12:58.000 So just, you know, I'm a professor of religion, you know, so I'm like, I'm right about, you know, my intuition was somehow confirmed.

02:13:07.000 And by the way, I think people, I think this should be, I'm not sure if this is totally true, but I believe he was the inspiration for the French character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

02:13:17.000 I think so.

02:13:18.000 Yeah.

02:13:18.000 Which makes sense.

02:13:20.000 Absolutely.

02:13:21.000 Because Hynek's in there and then there's him.

02:13:23.000 Yeah.

02:13:25.000 It's wild stuff.

02:13:27.000 Yeah.

02:13:28.000 What do you make of the reports of this craft that's supposedly 40 feet long and you get inside of it as big as a football field?

02:13:36.000 Oh, that one.

02:13:37.000 Okay, yeah.

02:13:38.000 So the time dimensions.

02:13:39.000 Okay, so people I know who do the work and are physicists, they describe this in quantum language, which I cannot replicate at all.

02:13:50.000 But this is how they're describing it.

02:13:51.000 They're saying that the...

02:13:53.000 And by the way, it's really interesting that, you know, when I'm doing my research into the Catholic history and I'm looking at some of the things that we can do now technologically that it looks very, you know, like people back then were like, this is a miracle, right?

02:14:07.000 Okay.

02:14:07.000 So what they're doing is a similar type of process or method.

02:14:12.000 So basically what they're doing is they're looking at people's descriptions and data of craft, right?

02:14:20.000 And they're then identifying the patterns and they're saying if there was a quantum field, this would make perfect sense.

02:14:27.000 So if this was occurring in a quantum field, this would make sense.

02:14:31.000 That this thing would look small on the outside and it's immense.

02:14:36.000 Yeah.

02:14:38.000 Why do you think this information is getting released?

02:14:42.000 Why do you think it's becoming a more mainstream, acceptable thing to discuss?

02:14:48.000 Because to the average person that sees this...

02:14:52.000 The thought, I think, sort of naturally goes to this idea that some sort of contact is inevitable, some sort of revelation, some sort of landing on the White House lawn type deal.

02:15:07.000 Okay, I have a couple thoughts on that.

02:15:10.000 The first one is that part of the reason is because China is now in space.

02:15:17.000 So before it was us and Russia, we were the only ones, we were together actually.

02:15:24.000 So, you know, we were aligned.

02:15:26.000 Even though at many points we're enemies on Earth, in space we weren't enemies.

02:15:31.000 We were working together using each other's equipment.

02:15:33.000 So also keeping the secrets that perhaps we're seeing in space.

02:15:37.000 But now that other countries are going into space, whatever is up there will be known.

02:15:43.000 And I think part of it has to do with this phenomenon.

02:15:47.000 And so that's why it's urgent to get this message out.

02:15:53.000 That's one of my ideas.

02:15:57.000 Another, well, I have some other ideas, but that's the one that's most prominent, is because I just don't think that it's going to be a secret for very much longer.

02:16:05.000 And in fact, right now, a lot, you know, Chinese are, you know, they are going into space and they are like, you know, looking at things and So from a national security standpoint, it's important to sort of move this conversation further. 1.00

02:16:22.000 Yeah.

02:16:22.000 Accelerate it.

02:16:23.000 I think so.

02:16:26.000 Are you hopeful with all this information that you have?

02:16:32.000 Are you hopeful about the direction that the world is going?

02:16:37.000 I would say that I'm simultaneously hopeful and horrified.

02:16:44.000 Okay?

02:16:45.000 And how can you be both?

02:16:47.000 I just am because it seems like a lot of things are happening that are terrible and will continue to happen and may even ramp up.

02:16:55.000 Okay?

02:16:56.000 At the same time, there is what I believe to be an awakening happening as well.

02:17:02.000 And I think that's also going to ramp up.

02:17:05.000 And as long as we have some portion of the collective awake, I think there's hope.

02:17:12.000 All right.

02:17:13.000 Let's wrap it up on that.

02:17:15.000 Well, thank you very much for being here.

02:17:16.000 I really appreciate it.

02:17:17.000 It was fascinating.

02:17:18.000 Yeah.

02:17:18.000 Fascinating conversation.

02:17:20.000 Thank you.

02:17:20.000 When more stuff comes out, let's do it again.

02:17:22.000 Okay.

02:17:22.000 Sounds good.

02:17:22.000 Okay.

02:17:23.000 Thank you very much.

02:17:24.000 Absolutely.

02:17:24.000 All right.

02:17:25.000 Bye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - January 24, 2024

Joe Rogan Experience #2091 - Diana Walsh Pasulka

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