In this episode, I sit down with a man who's been in the military for a long time. He's been with us since the early days of his service, and we talk about some of the things he's done, and what he's up to now. We also talk about his favorite conspiracy theories, and why he doesn't have a top-secret clearance. I think you're going to like this one, and I hope you do too! If you like the show, please HIT SUBSCRIBE and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and other podcasting platforms. We'll be looking out for your reviews and reviews in the coming weeks. Thank you so much for being a part of the podcast and supporting the show. It means a lot to us and we can't wait to see what you think of this episode. Cheers! -Luke and Matt -Your Hosts: John Rocha, Luke & Matt . John and Matt: Luke: . . . Matt: . Mark: , and Mark Mark's new book, is out now. Luke and Matt's book is out! Luke's book review is out on Amazon Prime Video. Mark and Matt are working on a new book called, "The Dark Side of the Stars." Matt and Luke are working together on a podcast called, The Dark Side Of The Stars . , and it's out now! Mark talks about the movie that's coming out soon. We're working on the movie he's been working on, and we're excited about it's coming to theaters. and how it's going to be out soon! and much more. - and we hope you enjoy it! We'll keep you up to date with all the details! of the movie, so stay tuned for the movie and we'll be posting it on the socials! in the next few weeks! Thanks for listening to this episode of the show! (and we'll tell you what we've been up to in the past week or the movie we're doing in the future of our lives! & much more! -- we'll send you guys what we're looking forward to you'll be hearing from you in the podcast! ) (listen to this week's next episode of this podcast! )
00:01:40.000Well, you'll have to share with me your secret, because unfortunately, I tell people, this is as good as it gets.
00:01:45.000I'm about as attractive as a cement truck, you know?
00:01:49.000So after the Army, I went into the Federal Service and had a lot of jobs, mostly in counterintelligence, which is looking basically what the bad guys know about us from an intelligence perspective.
00:02:05.000One of my jobs, I was working at the Director of National Intelligence, which for most people may or may not know, it's kind of outside of D.C. And where I lived, I was on the other side of D.C. living on a little island in the Chesapeake Bay.
00:02:29.000Well, you know, I wanted to give my kids a really good quality of life, and I did not want to work in the city and then kind of expose them to kind of the craziness, if that makes sense.
00:03:14.000So I was offered a job to go back to the Pentagon in 2008 for a little while and basically run the integration between national-level intelligence information and local and state and tribal law enforcement.
00:03:29.000So after 9-11, the country realized that we had a significant problem getting national-level information down to the cops on the ground that could actually do something about it.
00:03:39.000Because he didn't have security clearances.
00:03:41.000So they weren't allowed to be provided that information.
00:03:44.000One of my jobs was to try to help fix that.
00:03:46.000And shortly thereafter, I got there in 2008. It was probably early 2009 is when I was approached by two individuals who came to me and they said, look, we'd like to consider you for a program that we're part of.
00:04:26.000So, no, I didn't know what I was getting involved in.
00:04:28.000And after several conversations, it occurred to me that their interest in me Was some of my background I had.
00:04:35.000In my early career as a special agent in counterintelligence, I was protecting technologies, critical technologies, critical avionic technologies, for example, and some aerospace technologies.
00:04:47.000So think of first stage solid rocket motor booster technology, Tomaha cruise missiles, stuff like that, Apache longbow.
00:04:55.000So advanced avionics was something I was kind of already familiar with.
00:05:00.000And at the same time, I had the counterintelligence background.
00:05:03.000So I was asked to come in and run the counterintelligence and security aspect for a particular program, at which time I had no idea what the program even was.
00:05:12.000So what does counterintelligence and security mean?
00:05:15.000It just simply means making sure that our adversaries like Russia and China can't penetrate our organization and steal our secrets.
00:05:54.000And I went up to the top floor, I think it was the top floor, almost the top floor, and I met for the first time a gentleman named James Lakatsky, Dr. James Lakatsky, PhD.
00:06:07.000And this guy was the epitome of a rocket scientist.
00:06:11.000And when I say the epitome, I mean he was probably, and there's no exaggeration, the number one rocket scientist in the US government.
00:06:19.000Now, He's a humble guy, so he'll probably tell you he wasn't, but he really was.
00:06:23.000He's an amazing human being and very smart.
00:06:27.000And after a very brief conversation, he looked at me and he said, I want to ask you a question.
00:06:44.000And I said, no, that's not what I said.
00:06:45.000You asked me if I think, you know, what do I think about UFOs?
00:06:48.000And frankly, I don't think about UFOs.
00:06:51.000I really don't have the luxury to think about them.
00:06:53.000I'm too busy, you know, working intelligence operations and whatnot.
00:06:57.000And I remember him looking over his glasses and...
00:07:01.000Very seriously, staring me straight in the eye and says, well, don't let your personal bias get the best of you, because what you may learn may surprise you and may challenge any preconceived notion of what you think something is or is not.
00:07:17.000And so, let me backtrack for a minute.
00:08:31.000So it's 2024, 2000, early 2009. So this is the beginning of your journey towards this sort of bizarre subject of whatever these things are.
00:08:45.000So you don't have any real previous interest.
00:09:31.000So how do you first get introduced to these things?
00:09:33.000Well, so I didn't get introduced to these things.
00:09:36.000First of all, I was introduced to the reporting, right?
00:09:38.000So there was these official reports that we were getting from the field.
00:09:41.000There's official videos and whatnot that describe vehicles doing things, maneuvering in ways that, frankly, outperform anything we have in our inventory.
00:09:52.000Now, keep in mind my background Was at some point in aerospace.
00:09:55.000So I knew all the capabilities of an F-16 or, for example, an F-22 or the F-35.
00:10:02.000And at the end of the day, as advanced as they are, they're still conventional aircraft.
00:10:07.000You know, they still have the old, there's an adage they use for jet engines.
00:10:14.000It may seem a little awkward here, but it's suck, squeeze, bang, and blow.
00:10:32.000These vehicles, for the most part, didn't have any type of associated characteristic that you or I or any normal person would associate With a plane, with an airplane, an aircraft, right?
00:11:11.000They didn't have engines and no obvious signs of propulsion.
00:11:15.000They were doing things and maneuvering in ways that, frankly, Defied anything that we had in our inventory and we were pretty certain the enemies didn't have either.
00:11:25.000Our adversary didn't have these technologies either.
00:11:27.000And even more perplexing is that they were being encountered over controlled U.S. airspace and over sensitive military installations.
00:11:35.000So, you know, from that perspective, you've got a real national security concern on your hands.
00:11:48.000You know, I think part of the challenge is that most people here in this country, they're familiar with the three videos, right, that have been famously released by the Pentagon.
00:12:06.000And so those were the ones, those were kind of the low-hanging fruit that could be released to the general public.
00:12:11.000There's stuff out there that's like 4K ultra-high definition, right?
00:12:15.000So when you see something like that from a certain military platform or a certain military equity or an intelligence collection platform, you have to look at that and say, well, what is that?
00:12:27.000And more importantly, that data is being backed up by radar data, right?
00:12:30.000So you've got electro-optical data like gun camera footage or pod or FLIR video, and then you've got Radar data.
00:12:38.000That is actually confirming what the video is picking up.
00:12:42.000And then you've got eyewitnesses that are also watching it, right?
00:12:45.000So you've got trained observers, pilots that can recognize the silhouette between an SU-22 and a MiG-25 from 20 miles away and make a split-second decision.
00:13:00.000So you have now, you know, three separate, if you will, collection platforms, the human eye being one of them.
00:13:06.000You've got gun camera footage and you've got radar footage, all describing the same event at the same place at the same time under the same circumstances, right?
00:13:17.000And so keep in mind with my background as a former special agent in counterintelligence, if this was in front of a jury, You know, as I've said before, I think we're well beyond reasonable doubt.
00:13:47.000What was the first thing that you saw that made you realize that there's something going on here that defies conventional wisdom or conventional understanding of propulsion systems?
00:13:58.000I think for me one of the most compelling moments was when I attended...
00:14:06.000I attended a dinner with some individuals who were already associated with the larger umbrella program called ASAP. And I attended dinner at a Washington, D.C. hotel, and a Brazilian general attended this dinner.
00:14:22.000And the dinner was sponsored by a gentleman named Robert Bigelow.
00:14:45.000He really is an American patriot, in my opinion.
00:14:49.000But anyways, he flew in this guy named General Uchoa.
00:14:52.000General Uchoa was a Brazilian general, very, very senior in the Brazilian government, who led an investigation about an event that occurred over several days.
00:15:26.000And explain the concern they had and some of the interactions the Brazilian government officials had with these UAP that really I left there that dinner scratching my head and really at that point beginning to absorb The profoundness,
00:15:44.000that we're dealing with something that is real.
00:15:47.000This is not a cover plan for some other technology we're trying to protect.
00:16:15.000But for me, that was, and I think for one of my colleagues, too, which I probably can't say his name right now because he hasn't come out publicly yet, but we both left that dinner.
00:16:24.000I think scratching our heads and saying, wow, this is legit.
00:16:28.000The U.S. government is interested in this and there is interest by our government.
00:16:34.000After that dinner, attending more meetings and beginning to read the reports, the field reports, and speaking to the scientists, it became evident to me that this was a very serious issue.
00:16:45.000We had near misses over some of our areas of operation.
00:16:49.000In some cases, literally, these UAP splitting a combat formation.
00:16:53.000Now, if you know how planes fly, they fly very close in a combat situation.
00:16:57.000These things were splitting the formation, right?
00:17:00.000That there were reports being provided through the Air Force, mostly through the Navy, about air safety issues.
00:17:09.000Where pilots literally could run into these things, right?
00:17:15.000Was there ever an incident where a pilot or a jet did run into something?
00:17:19.000Not that I'm aware of what I can tell you that there has been incidents where there appears to be some sort of provocation where one of these things seems to be...
00:17:30.000Coming deliberately close to an aircraft, not necessarily trying to hit it, but maybe trying to demonstrate performance capabilities.
00:18:03.000An object goes whizzing right by the cockpit, and I mean probably like 15 feet away.
00:18:09.000And you can hear the pilot, the expletives of the pilot, you know, I won't see it here on air, but you can imagine, right, what a pilot would say when they're very, very surprised.
00:19:31.000Keep in mind, I never followed this topic.
00:19:33.000So every time I'm seeing one of these videos, I'm kind of seeing something for the very first time.
00:19:37.000So lenticular, whether it's a disc-shaped craft or it's It's a wedge-shaped craft or a diamond-shaped craft or a triangle-shaped craft, boomerang in some cases.
00:19:50.000And obviously, to our military pilots, it was very concerning.
00:19:54.000And I think when you look at some of the gold standard cases we had, like the Nimitz, for example, that case, you have this overwhelming number of sensors Looking at the same thing going on that the pilots are reporting.
00:20:13.000Eyewitness testimony is important, but at the end of the day, you know, grandma seeing some lights in her backyard doesn't really do it for me.
00:20:20.000You know, I'm a fact-oriented kind of guy.
00:20:26.000Provide us the information we need so then we can make a conclusion.
00:20:30.000If you start seeing UFOs in the sky everywhere, well, chances are they're probably not.
00:20:35.000It's a quadcopter, it's a balloon, it's an aircraft, it could be all sorts of things.
00:20:40.000That's why I think from our perspective, having the fundamental categories, the observables we call them, was so important because they are so beyond what a normal aircraft, a traditional conventional aircraft can do At that point, you realize you're dealing with some sort of beyond next generation technology.
00:20:59.000And that's when it gets compelling for guys like me, right?
00:21:02.000When you're seeing performance capabilities that far exceed, far surpass anything we have, and I'm talking even the very, very best technology we have, we don't come close to that.
00:21:42.000I didn't see any information to suggest that there were actually windows, even though an eyewitness might describe a window, because we are describing something of something that we recognize.
00:21:53.000And so we say, oh, that might be a window or whatnot.
00:22:09.000I saw vehicles that were doing things that were just left you scratching your head.
00:22:16.000And they were real, like I said, because you're backing it up with all this other sensor data.
00:22:20.000And some of the best sophisticated sensor data, by the way, at the time on the planet, That we have, right?
00:22:26.000Like the SPY1 radar and the E2 Hawkeye and some of the other radar capabilities and technical capabilities that other intelligence agencies have that I can't discuss here.
00:22:34.000You know, this is the stuff that helps us put, forgive the It's an analogy here, but warheads on foreheads.
00:22:41.000When we're going to take a strike against a terrorist, these are the same sensor systems we use to prosecute that war, that act, both in combat and not in combat.
00:22:54.000So, yeah, that for me was very compelling.
00:23:06.000There are hundreds and hundreds of videos That the intelligence community and the Department of Defense have on these things.
00:23:14.000Has there ever been any discussion about releasing any of these?
00:23:19.000I don't want to speak on behalf of the government.
00:23:21.000I... Colleagues of mine, like Chris Mellon, who have been very, very, very active in this topic and have actually been responsible for a lot of what we see now happening in Congress, has been championing that.
00:23:34.000He is the one who says, look, we need more videos to come out so the American people can see for themselves What we've been dealing with.
00:23:41.000When I had Chris Mellon in the Pentagon, he saw those videos.
00:23:44.000And up to that point, when he was a senior person at the Pentagon, like very senior, one of his jobs as the senior intelligence official, he asked, hey, do we have any UAP, UFO videos, investigations, anything like that?
00:24:26.000And so that was, I think, a point for him that really – that's probably the – and I don't want to speak for my friend Chris, but I suspect that was probably the spark that got him to the point where he said, OK, we have to do something about this.
00:24:40.000Yeah, when I was talking to him, it seemed like that was his perspective, that this was something that really should be, at least in some way, shape, or form, released to the general public.
00:24:51.000Just to solidify the conversation, just to let people know, like, these are real.
00:25:22.000As our own technology begins to advance, There's going to be pranksters out there.
00:25:27.000And that's one of the things that for me in AATIP, I always went into an investigation or a case assuming that it was man-made.
00:25:35.000And until I saw the compelling data that said otherwise, we were always going to assume or presume that this was something that was conventional.
00:26:17.000What is the oldest where it's like, okay, what the fuck is this?
00:26:21.000What's the oldest stuff that's compelling?
00:26:24.000The point is what I'm trying to get at is a lot of people point to the possibility that there's some sort of a secret program, some sort of secret propulsion, gravity-based, whatever it is, that's completely different than conventional propulsion systems that the U.S. government has and that they're operating these drones.
00:26:43.000And the problem with that Is always the Kenneth Arnold sightings, the Roswell, the sightings from a time where that technology just wasn't available at all?
00:26:54.000Joe, I'm so glad you asked me that question.
00:26:56.000It just so happens I brought you something.
00:26:59.000When the glasses come out, you know it's getting serious.
00:27:19.000So if this is just for you and if your audience is interested, it's this paragraph here you're going to want to read, and then it's the last one that's highlighted, and then take a look at the date and the subject line.
00:27:37.000This summary of observations of aerial phenomenon has been prepared for the purpose of reemphasizing and reiterating the fact that the phenomena have continuously occurred in the New Mexico skies during the past 18 months.
00:28:05.000The observers of those phenomena include scientists, special agents of the Office of Special Investigations, The U.S. Air Force, airline pilots, military pilots, Los Alamos security inspectors, military personnel, and many other persons of various occupations whose reliability is not questioned.
00:28:23.000And now scroll to the very top of that document.
00:28:26.000It says that it was determined above that.
00:28:30.000The Summary of Observations of Aerial Phenomenon in the New Mexico Area, December 1948 to May 1950. And the date of that document, if you scroll a little bit higher you are going to see the date of that memo.
00:28:45.000May 25th, 1950. It says that it was determined that the frequency of unexplained error phenomena in the New Mexico area was such that an organized plan of reporting these observations should be undertaken.
00:29:35.000But it highlights that these are official government documents through official government personnel.
00:29:42.000Raising the alarm bells, just like we did in ASAP and ATIPS. And so, this is nothing new.
00:29:47.000Now, if you want to look at this from an adversarial perspective, Our government has already said that's not ours, right?
00:29:54.000If you look at a 1950 Sabre jet, for example, it wasn't even supersonic.
00:30:00.000And yet these things that we are observing in some cases are doing – I brought some more documents here – multiples of Mach and doing velocities and doing things that we frankly could not do back then and frankly we still can't do in some cases.
00:30:15.000Temporally speaking, the only two countries in the world may have a chance of doing something like that would be Russia and China.
00:30:24.000It was in the middle of a famine at the time, and where was Russia?
00:30:27.000Russia was trying to develop the atomic bomb and still was using horse-drawn carts for a lot of their military operations.
00:30:37.000Temporally speaking, it doesn't make sense.
00:30:39.000This is the analogy I've used before, Joe, that it would be like Carter going into King Tut's tomb for the very first time in the 1920s, discovering King Tut's tomb, and when he goes in, he finds a fully assembled 747 jet.
00:31:44.000Just to highlight a portion so you can see the top of the document, who it's from, who it's to, and the date, and what the subject line is.
00:33:08.000It was more like taking a picture of where we are now.
00:33:11.000But wouldn't you want to just – like if you really think this thing is from somewhere else, the best example of it definitely not being ours is something from the 1950s.
00:33:52.000And I'm sure the original is probably much cleaner.
00:33:55.000But that's what the government put out online for people to review.
00:33:58.000So when you're going back to answer your question, when you are going to a general or you're going to a military leader about this topic, if you go back to anecdotal stuff like, oh, this is something from 1950s, they're not interested.
00:34:11.000They're like, look, what is going on now?
00:35:58.000And in fact, in other countries, whether it's in Latin America, South America, or in Europe, or Russia, China, there is an extreme interest in this topic.
00:36:06.000In fact, the Chinese, it was in the newspaper, I think it was the China Morning Sun, they have something called the Five Continents Initiative, where allegedly they were trying to Broker a deal with the United Nations that would allow China to run all the UFO investigations for the United Nations,
00:36:23.000So we also know that Russia, they've come out and said, yeah, we're interested in this topic.
00:36:27.000There was some released old KGB footage that showed MIG interactions with these UAP. And there's also in Latin America, you have the same thing.
00:36:35.000If you go to Latin America now, they don't have the same level of stigma and taboo associated with this topic like we do.
00:37:00.000And they call it that, the town, and because UAP are so frequent there that local law enforcement actually built an observatory, an observation post, to look at these things because they were so frequent.
00:37:14.000This is something that's been around for quite a long time.
00:37:17.000The problem is, in my opinion, and I could be wrong, but this is my assessment, is The reason why it's so difficult to have the conversation here is because our government had placed so much emphasis and interest trying to stigmatize this topic that it almost worked too well.
00:37:32.000Now, we're at the point where we should be having this conversation and people still don't want to because they think it's crazy.
00:37:38.000You think of tinfoil hats and Elvis on the mothership, when in reality, we're talking about a real national security issue.
00:37:44.000You have, Joe, you have a former director of national intelligence, Radcliffe, a former director of CIA. Brennan, you have former presidents all coming out and saying, yeah, there's something to it.
00:38:06.000And we probably should do something about it.
00:38:09.000So if we go back to the history of the debunking of it, you know, like the Project Blue Book stuff, J. Allen Hynek, after he had left Project Blue Book, he became a proponent of UFO disclosure.
00:38:22.000During Project Blue Book, it was his job to essentially dismiss everything and to come up with some sort of a reason, swamp gas, mass hallucinations, whatever it was, to attribute all these sightings to something that was very easy to explain.
00:38:40.000Is there any documentation or any discussion of why they did that, why they chose to debunk everything?
00:39:01.000And we had Russia and the United States engaging in these proxy wars.
00:39:05.000Neither side wanted to let the other side know what we had and what we didn't know, right?
00:39:11.000So if you have these UAP coming in and out, the last thing you want to do is tell the other side, broadcast, this is what we've learned from it, and more importantly, this is what we don't know about it, right?
00:39:21.000And so both sides were keeping this very quiet, but there was an interesting agreement at the classified level, I believe in the late 60s, where...
00:39:29.000There was this relationship with the United States.
00:39:31.000We were putting up our northern tier radar system to detect then Soviet Union ICBMs.
00:39:37.000And they were doing the same thing, right?
00:39:38.000Because none of us really trusted each other.
00:39:40.000But we trusted each other enough to say, look, before you hit that button, if you see something coming over the horizon, before you hit that button and launch, give us a call because...
00:40:11.000And so when Philip Corso was dismissing all these different things, did they have anything, any film footage, any stuff from that time from Project Blue Book that was like definitively not ours?
00:40:30.000I'm aware of the fact that people say it does exist and people have been briefed on it.
00:40:36.000I was, again, more focused on the here and now.
00:40:38.000I was aware of people who had attended certain meetings, very senior level meetings where that was discussed, where they saw certain footage.
00:41:01.000I think because you had Russia and US at this weird stalemate where neither one wanted to tell the other side what we know and what we didn't know about UAP. And really, I think the focus from a national security perspective, let's say you're a general and I'm a general.
00:41:14.000Look, we've got a real cold war going on here right now.
00:41:18.000As long as these things aren't coming in and zapping my people, that's going to be my focus right now.
00:41:22.000That's a real potential threat that I have to deal with now.
00:41:25.000I've got Russia pointing nukes at me and I'm pointing nukes at them at any time we could launch.
00:41:30.000Let's focus on that more so than the other stuff.
00:41:33.000And that has been my observation on why...
00:41:38.000They didn't want to address the problem, the challenge openly with the general public back.
00:41:45.000There was several studies that suggested that most people would be very uncomfortable with that idea that there's something else in the cosmos potentially or even right here on Earth.
00:41:55.000And that it would create some sort of societal disruption, right?
00:42:40.000There's a general public that is filming stuff, but from a Department of Defense perspective, our focus—now, Arrow is a different story, but when I was in the government, we had to be very, very careful of something we called intelligence oversight.
00:42:54.000Back in the 60s and 70s, the U.S. intelligence apparatus, particularly in the Department of Defense— You don't say.
00:43:35.000You don't bring in U.S. persons' information and ingest them into a Department of Defense It seems like you got plenty of compelling footage from the military.
00:44:06.000There's absolutely no doubt that we didn't have to look at civilian data because we had Better collection sensor systems from the military that was looking at stuff and giving us better insight.
00:44:15.000If you can't tell us about – can you give us some sort of an understanding of like what you're talking about?
00:44:53.000There is a video that shows one of these objects underwater.
00:44:58.000That goes by, the speed was calculated between 450 and 550 knots underwater, and it was bigger than the offshore derrick that it was passing, because you could see in the video the offshore derrick, and you could see this thing zip right by it.
00:46:02.000So now the term UAP, I think the latest description of it is unidentified anomalous phenomenon to help describe this multi-domain or transmedium characteristic that we are beginning to see and record that these things can do.
00:46:17.000And that is, I'm going to, if I can, digress for a second because that's super important, Joe.
00:47:03.000Their performance capabilities, they can do the same thing that we're seeing in the air and possibly in space and even underwater.
00:47:11.000So that is a fundamentally different type of technology than we are used to dealing with.
00:47:19.000Is the assumption that they are doing something with space-time and gravity around them rather than using something like a jet propulsion engine that blasts fire out the back and it makes it go fast forward?
00:47:34.000That they're doing something that alters the gravity around them.
00:47:38.000And that's why they can go through everything.
00:47:41.000Yeah, so we had some of the best scientists on the team, folks like Dr. Hal Puthoff and some other folks that I'm not allowed to say their names, Dr. Eric Davis and some others, that were doing the calculations, mathematical calculations on how this is possible.
00:47:56.000And the consensus was by the scientists, not me, because I'm not a...
00:48:06.000They were saying that – so let me back up here.
00:48:10.000Initially, the government for years was trying to identify the different exotic technologies that could explain the different performance characteristics.
00:48:19.000And it was during the ATP years that the scientists had this consensus that if you had one type of technology, if you could do one thing, all these other observables now become possible.
00:48:30.000Kind of think of like a unifying theory.
00:48:32.000And so if you had the ability to create this bubble around you In a localized area that insulated you from the effects of Earth's gravity.
00:49:03.000They're opposite sides, if you will, of the same coin.
00:49:06.000And so you can't have one without the other.
00:49:09.000And so you have this ability to create a bubble around you that insulates you from the warping of space-time, let's say in this case Earth's gravity or something like that, then the way you experience time inside that bubble Is perhaps fundamentally different than the way you might experience space-time outside that bubble because you're not subject to the effects of gravity,
00:49:31.000which would explain potentially why things don't need wings and why they don't need propulsion systems like that, right?
00:49:38.000So it's a completely different way of looking at how we understand physics and how we, as humans, Move about.
00:49:49.000Everything we do is fundamentally force equals mass times acceleration.
00:51:25.000You have an object like this cup on your table, and you want it to be insulated from the effects of Earth's gravity.
00:51:35.000So you create this bubble artificially using a certain energetic source at a certain frequency, and it interacts with certain material, certain metamaterial.
00:51:46.000And again, I've got to be careful exactly what I say, but Certain skin of the craft, this aluminum cup here, and all of a sudden you have this bubble around you where what you see on the outside is not necessarily what you see on the inside.
00:52:00.000In fact, may I do a short drawing for you?
00:52:02.000Okay, forgive me, I'm not an artist, so I'm gonna do this upside down for you and then I'm gonna kind of scoot this just a little here.
00:53:08.000If you had the ability to compress space-time, and not a lot, just a little bit, and you were able to allow these points to be a little closer together, now in essence, What took you, let's say,
00:53:23.000five hours and 500 miles an hour to do it, you can do it in one hour.
00:53:32.000But to the observer outside, because we're still in the same universe, we would see something like that.
00:53:37.000We would see this incredible hopscotching ability to, if you will, take a shortcut through space-time.
00:53:44.000And so what would appear to be instantaneous acceleration, hypersonic velocity, and other things, Now becomes a reality.
00:53:50.000And so that is fundamentally what these scientists had discovered.
00:53:58.000And so it seems like science fiction, but when you understand the mathematics and some of the theorem that they proposed, a lot of these other observables become possible.
00:54:08.000So, these are essentially just theoretical explanations of how these things are moving.
00:54:20.000You know, I don't want to misrepresent anything.
00:54:22.000There's a whole lot of other stuff that, if you can do that, all of a sudden now makes sense and may describe The observations that people are seeing and why they're kind of hard to see and they seem obscure.
00:54:37.000And so I think from a governmental perspective that it was kind of a revelatory moment for the folks in our program.
00:54:47.000So they realized one of the reasons why these things are weird looking is because they're literally creating...
00:55:10.000So how much of this is theoretical and how much of this is observed from recovered vehicles?
00:55:18.000I am not allowed to talk about what the government may or may not have in its possession other than that I have – so I went through a very lengthy Pentagon review process.
00:55:27.000Recently I wrote – I won't talk about it here but I wrote something and I had to go through Pentagon to have a review process and it took almost a year.
00:55:36.000In this thing I wrote, I talk about up to the part I can talk about and they approved for me to talk about up to that point.
00:55:47.000When it comes to what the government may or may not have in its possession, all I can simply say is that there is very compelling evidence to suggest that the U.S. government is in absolute possession of exotic material that is not made by humans.
00:56:02.000Now, beyond that, I can't really expound upon.
00:56:05.000I haven't been given permission to talk about it.
00:56:07.000But what I can say is what I've already said for the record, which has been approved by the Pentagon.
00:56:24.000Why do they tell you, why are they allowing you to say we are in possession of something that was not made by human beings, but not allowed to elaborate, not allowed to show these very compelling videos that you're talking about that you've seen?
00:56:43.000I think with now the introduction of cell phones and ring cameras, the cat's out of the bag.
00:56:49.000It's the worst kept secret at this point.
00:56:52.000Two, there is a faction – unlike before in the Cold War, I believe there is a faction of people inside the government that do want this conversation to occur.
00:57:00.000But equally, there's still a faction of people that are very mad with me.
00:57:04.000They do not want me having this conversation.
00:57:06.000And mark my words, just by me being on your show – It is going to cause an absolute storm inside the Pentagon, and I am sure the other shoe is going to drop.
00:57:16.000I promise you, you're going to hear all sorts of stuff.
00:57:19.000People make stuff up about me trying to discredit this topic, because as many people are in the government that want this topic to be discussed now, there's still some people that do not want this conversation.
00:58:43.000So to say that they're here to help us I'm not sure there's data.
00:58:48.000People say, well, you know, in Minot and in North Dakota and Montana, the UFOs came in and they interfered with our nuclear weapons and they brought the entire Echo flight offline.
00:59:00.000Which, by the way, I have the government report on that if you want it.
00:59:04.000But in Russia, a lot of people don't know, they turned them on, right?
00:59:18.000So this is a—I don't know if you remember the hearing, congressional hearing that occurred last year where the— With David Grush?
00:59:27.000Nope, the other one, with Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, Ronald Moultrie, and some people from the Navy— And I think it was Congressman Gallagher that asked the very specific question.
00:59:36.000And he said, are you aware of UFOs interfering with our nuclear capabilities?
00:59:43.000And the response was something like, no, not really familiar with it.
00:59:46.000And then the question was, I think, we asked specifically at these locations.
00:59:50.000And the government's response was, no, not familiar with it.
00:59:55.000Here's the actual report from the Department of Defense.
00:59:57.000This is the actual intelligence report that was released through FOIA. There's a gentleman out there who runs a site called The Black Vault.
01:00:26.000So obviously there's some people that don't want this to be released, and obviously there's some people that think that the general public has a right to know.
01:00:53.000Now, from a military perspective, and I just want to caveat, I don't agree with this, but I can respect the understanding.
01:00:59.000You, sir, are a general, and I say – We cannot prove that they're not here to do something bad.
01:01:07.000But what we do know is that they can interfere.
01:01:09.000They're very interested in our military capabilities, and they have interfered with our nuclear capabilities, right?
01:01:16.000From a military perspective, that looks an awful lot like something we call IPB, Initial Preparations of the Battle Space, or perhaps even ISR, Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance.
01:01:27.000Whenever we're going to go into a foreign country and invade, we do long-range surveillance.
01:01:32.000We want to know how the enemy operates, how they react.
01:01:35.000So even if there's a 2% chance, 5% chance that these things are here to do something Malevolent, right?
01:01:45.000Then we probably should not tip our hands to the fact that we are aware of it publicly because what happens the moment that the bad guys in a foreign country find our surveillance team over the border?
01:01:57.000We've got 12 hours we've got to invade because the element of surprise is now over.
01:02:01.000So some may feel in the government the mere fact of acknowledging this, if there is some sort of malintent, may push up artificially a clock That exists somewhere for these things to say, uh-oh, okay, the foolish humans are now – the cat's out of the bag.
01:03:26.000I'm also very optimistic, Joe, because you and I are having this conversation and people aren't making a run on Wall Street.
01:03:33.000People are still paying their mortgages and going to PTA meetings and And after the 2017 New York Times report, which was probably one of the biggest moments in UFO disclosure, because it was in the New York Times.
01:03:46.000And then you see something like that in the New York, especially in the New York Times in 2017. People really respected it.
01:03:55.000I mean, how many topics can you go to Congress and have that's not polarizing, right?
01:04:00.000This is one of the only ones where you can literally have Congressman Burchette and Congresswoman AOC side by side agreeing that this is important.
01:04:13.000And so, you know, my concern, I'm doing this because I believe it's the right thing to do.
01:04:19.000And my concern is that We're at a point now where I've said before, you know, secrets aren't like a fine wine where the longer you keep a cork on it, the better it gets.
01:04:43.000Give the government an ability to work its way out of a corner that it's put itself into for the last several decades and with no seeming way out, right?
01:05:48.000The problem is there are, though, real legal issues.
01:05:51.000So let's say you have, again, these cups forgive my analogies.
01:05:54.000You have two aerospace companies, Company A, Company B. And let's say I am in the Department of Defense back in the 50s, 60s, and I come across this interesting technology.
01:06:36.000There's all sorts of concerns one has to pay attention to because someone somewhere gave an unfair advantage to one company over another.
01:06:43.000So there are legal liabilities that we have to recognize.
01:06:47.000It's not just clear-cut, okay, forgive and forget.
01:06:52.000There's going to have to be some additional protection and understanding for if that occurred, we need to figure out how we deal with that as well.
01:07:01.000So that would be an impediment to release.
01:07:37.000I mean, how else do you find out how these things work?
01:07:40.000And if you were going to do it in a secretive manner, you would have to bring it to defense contractors, because those are the only people that are capable of making things.
01:11:27.000There's a lot of people that want to discredit his background and all sorts of other things.
01:11:32.000But the reality of what he's saying is essentially what we're seeing in these crafts, which is very strange.
01:11:38.000So he described how these things worked and how they moved and how they would turn sideways and sort of like project this whatever this Reactor that they have inside of them and he talked about this element element 115 They have a stable version of it that was essentially theoretical at the time in 1980 no one really knew whether or not that thing actually even exists 89 or whatever it was and that they would douse this thing project radiation upon it and it would create this
01:12:08.000Warp this gravity warp this this thing that allowed this This craft to move in ways that defied our understanding.
01:12:52.000You know, but now, you know, obviously now we have carbon fiber, we have a bunch of different ways of constructing things, but back then, he didn't know what the fuck that thing was.
01:13:01.000He said it looked like it had all been melted, like, into place, like, that it had been, like, almost like smooth, like wax, like melted wax, and that it had no instrumentation inside of it, and it was designed for very small things, like something that was, like, three feet tall.
01:13:15.000And that all these things seemed to operate through the being itself, had some sort of connection to the craft, some sort of strange way of interfacing with the craft that didn't have anything to do with pulling levers and moving things.
01:14:09.000And apparently with each iteration it gets more and more sophisticated and better.
01:14:13.000So this is a, from this person's point of view, he's playing this video game entirely with his mind.
01:14:21.000He's playing better than I can with my hands.
01:14:23.000Well, better than anybody can because the first guy who, the first Neuralink patient we had him on and he said essentially it's like having an aimbot because you don't miss.
01:14:32.000You look at the thing you're trying to shoot at and instantaneously your crosshairs go there.
01:14:37.000Yeah, so all this stuff is taking place entirely.
01:14:42.000This is all him doing this entirely with his mind.
01:14:45.000So if we can do that now, is it really that far of a stretch to think that someone who's a little more advanced than us, our friends from out of town, That's the way to do it.
01:15:30.000I mean, just go from garage door openers to, you know, 500, 600 years ago to today.
01:15:36.000And then cell phones, the ability to send video across the world instantaneously.
01:15:40.000All the sophisticated stuff that we just completely take for granted because it's become a normal part of our everyday life.
01:15:46.000I used to give a briefing to some folks.
01:15:51.000I'm so glad you mentioned this because this goes back to the whole stigma and taboo issue.
01:15:56.000I used to have a slideshow, and I still have it somewhere, and I would discuss the Latin word prefix of para, P-A-R-A. And it means above or beside.
01:16:07.000And so what I would do is show up, I would say the word parachute, and I'd ask people, what do you think of when you hear the word parachute?
01:16:13.000And people would describe, obviously, something that deploys over your head and hopefully you hit the ground with a thump and not a thud, right?
01:16:19.000But something that's normal, we use every day.
01:16:22.000And then I say, what about the word paramedic?
01:16:24.000And then people would look at it and say, well, I think of a first responder.
01:16:27.000Someone goes, you know, some sort of medical lifesaver that's going to be there for your benefit.
01:16:50.000When in reality, in science, by definition, everything is paranormal until it becomes normal.
01:16:56.000The cell phone that I use every day 50 years ago, absolutely paranormal.
01:17:00.000And so I would go through this exercise of things that were once considered paranormal.
01:17:04.000For example, when the Inca first saw the Spaniards, the conquistadores, coming from the reconquering, They saw them on the shores of the beach and they saw these humans in armor riding on a horse.
01:17:16.000And they assumed, because they'd never seen a horse before, they assumed it was a single entity, it was a single monster.
01:17:44.000In history where we think something is kooky and weird when in reality it's not.
01:17:49.000It's just we don't understand it yet and we have done such a good job of stigmatizing this conversation that the moment you even say the word paranormal or you say the word UFO or anything like that, people are conditioned without even thinking about it.
01:18:19.000You know, what do you think is kooky about something that's in our airspace that's performing in ways that we can't replicate?
01:18:26.000You know, that people say, well, you know, wait a minute, we spend millions if not billions of dollars Putting a probe on Mars to try to find microbial life.
01:18:37.000And by the way, it looks like that may happen.
01:18:39.000It looks like there actually may be some evidence to suggest that.
01:18:42.000We spend lots of money trying to find techno signatures of intelligent life, radio signatures, in our own Milky Way, right?
01:18:50.000Well, is it possible within the four and a half billion years our planet's been here that maybe intelligent life maybe found us first?
01:19:00.000You know, we have to stop putting these limitations.
01:19:03.000Joe, when I was in the medical program, when I was learning to be microbiology and immunology in college, we learned from our professor that Homo sapiens sapiens as a modern species has been around roughly between 100,000 to 200,000 years.
01:19:19.000Now, I'm not an expert, but that's what they say.
01:19:22.000It was only the Greeks 2,000 years ago that introduced the idea that there's only two types of life forms on this planet.
01:19:28.000And you are either A, a plant, or B, you're an animal.
01:19:35.000So if you look at a 24-hour clock, roughly the last five minutes in the 24 hours, Towards midnight, we discovered another form of life that is neither plant nor animal that's been here with us on this planet, and that is the world of fungus.
01:19:49.000During the Renaissance and the days of Newton, we discovered that there was this other life form we've been sharing all along.
01:19:55.000And so we pat ourselves on the shoulder, and it wasn't the last 120 years—think about it—the last 10 seconds of our existence on this planet, so to speak, in a 24-hour clock as a modern species.
01:20:07.000We actually discovered the true dominant life form on this planet.
01:20:11.000And in fact, if you take all the biomass of every plant and the biomass of every animal and the biomass of every fungus and add it all together, it still will not equal the biomass of this hidden kingdom of life that's actually the dominant life form on this planet.
01:20:25.000And that wasn't until we were able to curve glass and look through a little steel tube and famously shout, little beasties, little beasties!
01:20:32.000Did we discover the world of microorganisms?
01:20:57.000Well, the answer is a resounding yes, of course it's possible, because we're always discovering new ways life can exist.
01:21:05.000When I was growing up as a kid, I was told, absolutely, as a matter of fact, all life form is derived from photosynthesis, ultimately, when you go all the way down.
01:21:15.000It wasn't until we discovered in the deepest depths of our oceans where these things called black smokers, we discovered there are creatures that thrive with no light and they thrive off of something called chemosynthesis, a completely different way to metabolize energy to sustain life,
01:21:32.000So every time we put Mother Nature in a little box, she always finds a way to wiggle her way out.
01:21:36.000And I think that's important when having this conversation because If there's one thing we know as human beings, we're usually wrong at first.
01:21:46.000Well, we exist, and we do send things to other planets.
01:22:32.000And you just take that and everything moves exponentially.
01:22:35.000You take that and you imagine a civilization that's been around 10,000 years longer than us, 100,000 years longer, a million years longer than us.
01:22:42.000Something that doesn't exist in- How about 100 years?
01:22:45.000We have evolved more in the last 150 years than we have in the last 150,000 years.
01:23:08.000They can be from inner space or even the space in between.
01:23:12.000And I say that because the universe is far more complex than we give it credit for.
01:23:17.000Every time, you know, there was a time we had Newtonian physics, we thought there was a solution, then all of a sudden Einstein comes along and we realize that, wait, space and time are actually connected, and then everything's relative, and all of a sudden now you have quantum mechanics, which is, you know, this spooky action at a distance, right, where the whole universe is behaving in a way that it shouldn't,
01:23:33.000and yet that looks like the real way the universe works.
01:23:37.000I often tell people, as humans, we have only five fundamental senses that we can base our reality upon.
01:23:46.000And if you can't touch it, taste it, hear it, smell it, etc., we can't interact with it.
01:23:50.000And so where I live in Wyoming, we have these beautiful night skies, kind of like you have here in your studio here.
01:23:59.000And as beautiful as those night skies are, if you were to look at that same portion of the night sky through a radio telescope, We're good to go.
01:24:27.000Interact with a very small sliver of the reality that we can perceive because we're humans.
01:24:31.000But most of reality is actually beyond that.
01:24:34.000And then, of course, you have scalability issues.
01:24:41.000And what scientists are now saying, if you look in any direction, you can see roughly within the visible, let me emphasize, visible horizon of our universe is about 13.9 billion light years, plus or minus.
01:24:53.000So that means in any direction I can see 13.9 billion light years with the right equipment.
01:25:15.000And that, by scientists' estimation, so that if the universe end-to-end of our visible, we're stuck in the middle, is roughly 27 billion light years.
01:25:23.000Scientists are now saying that's only possibly only 10% of the known universe because the universe is so big and so vast and so far, light will never have time to reach Earth.
01:25:33.000So that's at a minimum 100 billion light years, right?
01:25:37.000And so we are this little speck in the middle.
01:25:40.000And as crazy as that is to even try to conceive, if you compare one atom inside the hill, one hydrogen atom, Avogadro's number, right?
01:25:50.000One times 10 to the negative umpteen all the way down.
01:25:54.000It is roughly the same level of scale As we are to the universe, meaning that atom is the size of a human as we are the size of the universe, as we are a human to the size of the universe.
01:26:06.000So there is this, and we as humans can only interact, plus or minus, with one order of magnitude up or down.
01:26:13.000Otherwise, the universe is simply too big or too small.
01:26:16.000Meaning most of the universe and reality lies in those scales.
01:26:21.000We live in this little tiny, tiny sliver.
01:26:56.000As human beings, right, how many times do we fly over the Serengeti in a helicopter, right, and Let's say you want to monitor the health of a particular, you know, a herd of elephants, right?
01:29:48.000One of the things that people need to understand is that most of the exploration of the ocean is really essentially around the outside edges.
01:30:07.000And these underwater crafts, like this enormous one that apparently was near this oil rig, how many of them have been, has there been more than one of those videos?
01:30:18.000So let me tell you what I can say from open source.
01:30:23.000And then I'll tell you about a conversation I had without attribution because I don't want to get in trouble.
01:30:30.000A lot of people are familiar with the Air Force's program called the Fast Walker Program, which is a program that was started by the Air Force, among other things, was to detect UFOs.
01:30:42.000Actually, that was part of their mission, to detect a lot of things, adversarial technology, but UFOs was one of them.
01:30:49.000It was called the Fast Walker Program.
01:30:51.000There was some information that was released publicly about a similar program the Navy has.
01:30:58.000I can't talk about it because I don't have approval to talk about it.
01:31:01.000But obviously they're interested, because they have equities underwater, they're interested in if there's anything underwater that can perform beyond anything we have.
01:31:11.000And I remember speaking to one individual who pulled me aside very privately and he said, We were tracking this thing, doing, and I won't say the exact speed, but hundreds and hundreds of knots underwater.
01:31:24.000And it was bigger than our own submarine.
01:31:26.000You know how big our submarines are, right?
01:32:30.000At a predetermined time, they pop to the surface.
01:32:33.000We grab it with a helicopter, bring it back to shore, and we test it for telemetry and make sure that this cruise missile was doing what it was supposed to do.
01:32:40.000So they're out there in the helicopter, frogman hanging down the line.
01:32:45.000You got the helo pilot, you got the crew chief and the co-pilot looking all down at the bubble.
01:32:50.000And as they're about to grab this cruise missile out of the ocean, something huge and round, and what was described to me as black as a devil, starts to rise to the surface.
01:33:02.000The water begins to churn, very much like David Fravor's description of the Tic Tac incident and the roiling water.
01:33:09.000The frogman is so freaked out, he's literally trying to climb the line back up.
01:33:12.000He's like total panic at the disco, right?
01:36:41.000Every time a Russian surveillance aircraft comes by, we launch two F-22s and we get real close to it and say, hey, you know, be careful.
01:36:48.000But not even from a military perspective.
01:36:51.000Like, if a civilization was trying to alert another civilization about its presence...
01:36:57.000Wouldn't it, like, go towards whatever military vehicles it has and show itself?
01:37:03.000And then I would imagine that if they understand human beings, they understand our psychology, and they understand that some giant size of an island, black as the devil, circular craft that lands next to the Pentagon would fucking end the world.
01:37:49.000You know, the counter-argument to that is that's a very human thing, right?
01:37:52.000We have, as humans, we always, it's almost innate.
01:37:55.000We look at everything through anthropomorphic eyes.
01:37:58.000We look at, you know, our pet dogs and we give them human names and we do things like that because we assign human value to things because we have intentions and motivations.
01:38:23.000Intent and motivation is a very human thing, and we have to – I don't want to say resist the urge because it's almost impossible to do it, but we have to recognize that there are – There are things that may exist that don't have human motivation, meaning maybe they don't care about sensitizing us.
01:38:58.000But would you have to assign human traits to it or would you have if you you could look at it from the perspective of These things are aware of our psychology They're aware of how we function and they're aware of the fragility of our worldview No, good point.
01:39:13.000You don't have to have human intention to have a strategy for doing the least amount of harm to this emerging civilization.
01:39:44.000It's part of their DNA, part of their wiring to have a low profile, low observability, and to get closer to their target, whether it's prey or anything else.
01:39:59.000Yeah, I mean, it just makes sense that if it understands us, if it's absurd, look, we understand the behavior characteristics of sloths, right?
01:40:08.000We study them, we know what they do, and it would just make sense that if they're studying us, they would understand our behavior characteristics.
01:40:14.000I mean, the tiger recognizes the behavior characteristics of the zebra, doesn't it?
01:40:19.000It studies it, and so it knows what it has to do to get close to the zebra, so that's a very fair point.
01:40:23.000Yeah, there's no way they would come here with ignorance.
01:40:25.000And I think also it's very likely that what we are exists in many, many places in the universe and that what we are is what they used to be.
01:40:36.000So they probably understand what we are.
01:40:38.000Well, we do that in the Amazon, don't we?
01:41:06.000They consistently make better and better versions of these flying crafts until they figure out how to make this warp drive thing that these things apparently have.
01:41:14.000Another thing that's odd is that you see the same kind of things that Kenneth Arnold saw in 1950. You see the same kind of things today.
01:41:24.000It's almost like You know, going somewhere in the 1950s and seeing a 55 Chevy, and then in 2024 seeing another 55 Chevy.
01:41:33.000They're still driving around in 55 Chevys?
01:43:14.000Is that part of, like, fractals and geometry throughout the universe?
01:43:19.000Is that part of the blueprint of all life?
01:43:22.000Or is it only specific to life here on Earth?
01:43:26.000And that's a great question because there's probably arguments to suggest that, yeah, there probably is a natural blueprint for physics in the universe.
01:43:35.000They're probably, since life has to abide by physics, probably a natural, potentially natural blueprint for the evolution of all life.
01:43:42.000Whether, again, bacterial or animal or human or anything else, non-human.
01:43:47.000It makes sense that everything moves into greater levels of complexity, from single-celled organisms to human beings that pilot drones.
01:43:56.000It just keeps going in the same general direction, observably here.
01:44:00.000And if the universe is infinite, that means there's infinite versions of what we're seeing here with us that exists throughout the cosmos and probably in infinite steps along the way, right?
01:44:11.000A hundred years from now, a thousand years from now.
01:44:13.000Well, not to make light of it, but I'll tell you recently.
01:44:16.000So I've learned over the years there's nothing more expensive than a cheap lawyer.
01:44:21.000So I've got a couple good lawyers that I work with on just contractual stuff, and one of them is named Ivan Hanel.
01:44:30.000And I've learned to appreciate the infinite complexity of law and legal, right?
01:44:37.000So if there is this natural progression as we're talking about life, I mean, we even see it in our own human interactions, right?
01:44:45.000This intricate complexity of how things work and how even in the way we behave with each other socially.
01:44:53.000When I was in the government, you could look at a terrorist link analysis and And that link analysis still follows those fractal patterns, that the patterns in our lungs, the patterns of lightning, the patterns of super-Magellanic clouds and galaxies,
01:45:09.000super-clusters of galaxies, all have that same pattern.
01:45:16.000And so, again, not to make joke of it, but I'm learning that it's beyond these patterns or beyond just Physical patterns, you know, even in something as silly but fundamental as law, there are these patterns that continue to spin off and whatnot.
01:45:33.000I think we're at a point now as a species where we probably should be having these conversations.
01:45:38.000And I'll also say this, Joe, there are parts of this conversation I don't feel the government has any place.
01:45:46.000There is definitely a national security conversation here.
01:45:50.000But the conversation we're having, as you can tell, is far beyond national security, right?
01:45:55.000We're talking philosophical, psychological, sociological, theological implications that I'm not sure I want my government necessarily dictating for me what I should think about this.
01:46:07.000Well, the government's supposed to be working for us, ultimately.
01:46:11.000You know, and the problem is when you have access to information that's above and beyond the normal person's realm, That could affect everyone on this planet, this understanding that we are not alone.
01:46:21.000But not only now, we're probably not even alone here.
01:46:24.000It's not even that something is visiting us.
01:46:26.000Something's probably here all the time.
01:46:28.000You know, and this is the main thought about these underwater vehicles.
01:46:33.000Well, life is abundant on this planet, isn't it?
01:46:49.000It seems like if we can actually find it on Mars, like you were saying before, they may have found some sort of an evidence of microbiological life.
01:47:01.000If we find it on Mars and we find it somewhere, they think maybe Europa underneath the surface.
01:47:48.000But yeah, I mean, you're absolutely correct.
01:47:50.000I think we have, again, this goes back to the original point of every time we try to put Mother Nature in a box, she always finds a way to wiggle her way out of it and prove us wrong.
01:47:59.000If the one thing we're right about is that we're always wrong.
01:48:03.000How much, I don't know if you could talk about this, but how much of an effort is there to try to detect things under the surface of the ocean?
01:48:12.000I would defer that to the United States Navy and maybe NOAA. National Oceanographic and Atmospheric.
01:48:19.000Yeah, no, not the biblical NOAA. Oh, Jesus.
01:48:23.000National Oceanographic and Atmospheric.
01:48:26.000Speaking of going that far back, I got to think that when people are delving into this stuff, they look at ancient scriptures and these different depictions of things, whether it's the Vyamanas in the Hindu texts and whether it's in the Bhagavad Gita.
01:48:47.000There's all these different stories in Ezekiel and the Bible.
01:48:50.000There's things that seem to If I was a person living thousands of years ago and I encountered a flying saucer or encountered some spaceship from another planet, I would probably describe it in a way that they're describing it.
01:49:21.000The Vatican doesn't have a problem with this topic.
01:49:23.000This is something, in fact, up until the 1600s, it was heretical to presume or assume that mankind was the only, if you will, incarnation of God, representation of God.
01:49:34.000But in essence, you're putting limitations on the dominion of what God can and can't do.
01:49:39.000And there are these scrolls, in fact, that are in the Vatican archives that discuss, it's a conversation between a Roman soldier and a Roman general, Where they describe, there's something called eclipus.
01:49:51.000Eclipus in Latin means like sun, eclipse, right?
01:50:43.000And when you look at what the Vatican is, I mean, really, it's probably the world's oldest, most capable intelligence organization because they have priests around the world that people will report miracles to, right, and confessions to, and eventually that gets filtered up to the Vatican.
01:51:44.000There were some very interesting accounts.
01:51:46.000And even, you know, old, old, old sailor accounts, you know, of, you know, people say, well, you know, old sailors also talked about, you know, big giant kraken and stuff like that.
01:51:54.000But there was always an element of truth to it.
01:51:55.000Now, we realize there are giant squid in the Pacific, right?
01:51:59.000Well, not only that, krakens, they think likely did exist.
01:52:03.000Because octopus, when they rot, they don't leave anything.
01:52:06.000But they did find fossilized suction cups from...
01:52:59.000I saw something crash into the water, but I can't find that.
01:53:02.000Yeah, there were some reports of some interesting lights that the crew had reported, and it was actually, he put it down in his logbook, something about some interest.
01:53:10.000Now, some folks will come back and say, well, that's St. Elmo's Fire, which it absolutely could be.
01:53:20.000In certain environmental conditions, there is this weird greenish-blue plasma glow that will often sometimes be seen on the tips of wingtips on aircraft.
01:53:31.000There's some really good pictures of it online.
01:53:33.000And even on the old mariner ships up towards the sails and the masts.
01:54:39.000And he said there's a very thick document that relates to the...
01:54:46.000The implications that it has on religion and the way they talk about us.
01:54:52.000Well, religion calls us vessels, right?
01:54:54.000Religious scripture in a lot of different religions refer to humans as vessels.
01:54:59.000I'm certainly not a religious expert, so I don't want to pontificate here and say something that's inaccurate, but that doesn't surprise me.
01:55:08.000Well, I think they were saying vessels for souls.
01:55:14.000That a being transcends its physical limitations of biological reality, right?
01:55:19.000So the biological evolution that led us to become homo sapiens over the course of, you know, X amount of millions of years, that's a very slow process.
01:55:27.000But technological innovation and technological progress is very quick, very quick, especially when you add in artificial intelligence.
01:55:36.000Yeah, so if something comes along that Maybe that thing needs...
01:55:59.000A thing with a soul that has a creative desire, that has a lust for innovation and continues to make better and better things.
01:56:07.000And maybe that thing only exists in biology.
01:56:09.000And maybe the problem with artificial life is that it has no motivation.
01:56:16.000And that we have, especially if it's self-programmable, right?
01:56:21.000So one of the very bizarre things that was recently discovered about artificial intelligence, they gave artificial intelligence a certain amount of time to code something, to figure something out.
01:56:36.000And when it didn't have enough time, it changed its code to give itself more time.
01:57:05.000And also some of the great things that human beings do.
01:57:06.000But maybe it also doesn't have any desire to create.
01:57:10.000Maybe the only way for its kind of life to exist Is for a human being, a biological thing that's super intelligent in comparison to the rest of the animals on this planet, that innovates to the point where it creates this artificial life.
01:57:28.000I'm going to share something very, very personal with you.
01:57:30.000And I know when I say with you, I know it's with everybody else.
01:57:32.000But, you know, I... Part of my struggle is I can't urge the government to be transparent, and I'm not transparent myself, right?
01:59:11.000She said, no, son, one day I'm going to die.
01:59:13.000And I remember spending, from that day forward, as God is my witness, I spent every single day of my life Knowing one day my mother was going to die.
02:03:04.000I've got enough haters out there anyways.
02:03:05.000If they want to think that I'm trying to...
02:03:10.000Hope that my mother has a soul and she goes somewhere.
02:03:12.000I'm just telling you what I experienced and other people experience too.
02:03:15.000And it was proof for me at that moment that there's much more to us as human beings.
02:03:22.000I had a very similar feeling when I went to my grandfather's funeral and I saw him in the casket because it was an open casket and I knew he's gone.
02:04:32.000Well, it's scary for us, you know, but...
02:04:38.000Like, you got to wonder why we are so different than every other creature in that we have this insane, insatiable desire to change our environment.
02:04:49.000Constantly build bigger skyscrapers and to move the earth and we're constantly inventing new technology.
02:04:59.000I mean, it seems to be an instinct that's a part of us.
02:05:04.000And if this gradual progression of life is life goes from intelligent biological life to super intelligent, whatever it is, whatever kind of technology creates it, that life is not as simple as...
02:05:22.000This natural selection model that we have here that we think applies to life.
02:05:29.000This is a type of life and then there's a life that this thing creates.
02:05:34.000Well, you know, evolution isn't just a physical thing, is it?
02:05:38.000Evolution is the ability to change within one's environment over time.
02:05:44.000And that's a fascinating concept you bring up because some speculate That it is inevitable that human beings will eventually evolve into something.
02:05:54.000We're just a link in a much longer chain.
02:05:56.000And that all intelligent life potentially goes through this process.
02:06:00.000And that this is a natural process where eventually we actually make ourselves extinct.
02:06:05.000Not in the way where we kill ourselves, but we wind up creating a life form, whether it's AI or we start enhancing ourselves with more and more machine interface.
02:06:13.000And, you know, life doesn't have to necessarily be organic, right?
02:06:18.000I mean, silicon is very, very close to carbon in some cases.
02:06:20.000So, you know, is it possible that life, it is destiny for all life eventually to evolve itself out of existence and bring in or usher in a new type of life form?
02:07:04.000This is a conversation that involves a lot of people, you know, whether it's your priest or your rabbi or your imam or it is your philosophy teacher at the university.
02:07:15.000I think we're getting into an area now that is beyond national security.
02:07:20.000And honestly, Joe, I'm not comfortable...
02:07:44.000Human beings shouldn't have this insane knowledge and keep it from other human beings.
02:07:49.000Well, in fact, it's illegal, especially in our democracy.
02:07:52.000This type of stuff is supposed to be discussed with certain members of Congress and certain elements of the executive branch.
02:07:58.000And when somebody, I don't care if you're in the government or in a religion or anything like that, this goes to the fundamental pillar of something that agrees me, which is corruption.
02:08:06.000Now, when I say corruption, let me backtrack a little bit.
02:08:10.000My father recently died this last Father's Day.
02:09:03.000Corruption at its heart is when you are willing to...
02:09:07.000Bypass your own moral code, your own ethics for something else.
02:09:12.000And whether it's financial corruption, religious corruption, governmental corruption, or even moral corruption, when you start to compromise on your own values, it's a very quick downward spiral to utter chaos.
02:09:29.000And he know that firsthand because my father was in the Bay of Pigs invasion.
02:09:33.000He was a political prisoner of Castro.
02:09:35.000He actually fought with Castro against Batista.
02:09:37.000And then when Castro went communist, my father joined the folks here and the friendly folks at the CIA and was part of the invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
02:09:45.000He spent two years in Castro's prisons being tortured.
02:09:49.000So when he came to this country, this country offered us opportunities that no other country could or would.
02:09:56.000And the reason why Cuba failed was because of corruption.
02:10:00.000And he said, look, corruption will be the end of all.
02:10:04.000And it's a very quick downward spiral with democracy that if democracy becomes corrupt, you now have tyranny, right?
02:10:13.000And so every time someone in the government is willing to compromise a little bit on the value of what it means to serve the American people and they forget that, they become corrupt.
02:10:23.000And that actually erodes the very essence of what democracy is and what this country is about.
02:10:29.000And that is why it is so important that the individuals in our government that don't want to have this conversation and don't want to talk to Congress and are making the unilateral decision on your behalf and the American taxpayer on my behalf That's wrong.
02:11:11.000And you can hit rock bottom very, very quickly.
02:11:13.000And the only reason why this government works is because we all have faith and a commitment to what we consider are the American values and serving the American people and, you know, for the people, by the people.
02:11:25.000So I think it's very dangerous when elements in the government, and I don't want to villainize the whole government because the government's full of great people.
02:11:34.000So I'm talking about the minority few.
02:11:37.000Some of these people who have actually gone after me will probably continue to come after me to try to discredit me and everything else, despite the volumes of documentation that I have in my possession and others, because they don't want to have the conversation and they are happy with the status quo.
02:11:51.000And to me, that is a greater threat than any UAP could ever have on humanity.
02:11:57.000The greatest threat is how we perceive ourselves and what we are willing to do to keep this a secret in violation of the commitment and and and what we have done to we've sworn in some cases to uphold the values of this country and I think that's a concern for me and that's why I don't want certain elements having this conversation of what this means you know the bigger macro level conversation because I don't think they're qualified I'm not qualified I know that I'm damn sure they're not qualified
02:12:51.000That's up to you to decide for yourself.
02:12:54.000And this is part of my frustration with this overall conversation because there are elements that don't want you to have this conversation.
02:13:14.000Look, I got to tell you, I don't ever get nervous doing an interview.
02:13:19.000You were the first one and probably the only one I will ever have been nervous coming in just simply because not because of me because of you the responsibilities you have on your shoulders to have a communicate you reach a global audience people are listening to this conversation right now and by the way they're part of this conversation very much so right that is an enormous responsibility you have a voice in some cases That exceeds presidents.
02:13:47.000The technology you now have available to your fingertips and this wonderful staff you have, you are influencing the world.
02:13:54.000And I can't imagine that type of responsibility.
02:13:58.000I mean, there are world leaders that don't have the voice you have.
02:14:02.000And so for me, it is a profound, profound honor and privilege to be with you here today and your wonderful audience.
02:14:11.000You know, if I never see you again, I wish you the best of luck.