The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2194 - Luis Elizondo

00:00:12.000 What's up Luke?

00:00:13.000 How are ya?

00:00:13.000 Hey sir, I'm doing better than I deserve.

00:00:15.000 Well, that's a good statement.

00:00:17.000 You know, there's an old military saying, any day above ground is a good day.

00:00:21.000 There you go.

00:00:22.000 So tell everybody what your official job was.

00:00:27.000 Wow.

00:00:28.000 I had a lot of official jobs.

00:00:29.000 With the government in regards to, you know.

00:00:33.000 You know.

00:00:34.000 You know those things.

00:00:36.000 Sure.

00:00:37.000 One of these things.

00:00:38.000 That's allegedly, that's a replica of the one that Bob Lazar worked on, the sport model.

00:00:46.000 I've heard that before.

00:00:48.000 Designs by Perry.

00:00:49.000 The E in Perry is a three, and he's a dude on Instagram who sent me that.

00:00:55.000 Very cool.

00:00:56.000 Pretty dope, right?

00:00:57.000 Yeah.

00:00:57.000 We have another one that looks just like it at the mothership at the comedy club.

00:01:01.000 When you walk in, you walk right through like a giant suspended UFO. Very cool.

00:01:07.000 So obviously I have issues.

00:01:08.000 Well, you know what?

00:01:09.000 This is a neat town.

00:01:11.000 I was strolling the streets yesterday and I came across the...

00:01:17.000 The Texas Toy Museum.

00:01:19.000 Now, I'm not one for museums usually, but something I saw was automatically transported me back to when I was a kid.

00:01:25.000 I'm an old guy, so I grew up 70s and early 80s.

00:01:28.000 How old are you?

00:01:29.000 52. I'm 57. You are?

00:01:31.000 Yeah.

00:01:32.000 Man.

00:01:32.000 Well, I look 10 years older than you.

00:01:35.000 I got a lot of long, hard miles on me, unfortunately.

00:01:38.000 I do too, believe it or not.

00:01:40.000 Well, you'll have to share with me your secret, because unfortunately, I tell people, this is as good as it gets.

00:01:45.000 I'm about as attractive as a cement truck, you know?

00:01:49.000 So after the Army, I went into the Federal Service and had a lot of jobs, mostly in counterintelligence, which is looking basically what the bad guys know about us from an intelligence perspective.

00:02:02.000 And in 2008, I changed my job.

00:02:05.000 One of my jobs, I was working at the Director of National Intelligence, which for most people may or may not know, it's kind of outside of D.C. And where I lived, I was on the other side of D.C. living on a little island in the Chesapeake Bay.

00:02:19.000 And so my commute was terrible.

00:02:20.000 I mean, it really, really frankly sucked.

00:02:21.000 Did you have to take a ferry every day?

00:02:23.000 No, but it was about a three-hour commute each way.

00:02:26.000 Oh, God.

00:02:26.000 Because you have to go right past Langley.

00:02:27.000 Yeah, it was brutal.

00:02:28.000 Why didn't you move closer?

00:02:29.000 Well, you know, I wanted to give my kids a really good quality of life, and I did not want to work in the city and then kind of expose them to kind of the craziness, if that makes sense.

00:02:38.000 Especially D.C. D.C. is crazy.

00:02:41.000 Especially with kids, right? 1.00

00:02:42.000 Kind of nuts that they don't clean up the capital of the fucking country. 0.99

00:02:46.000 It seems like it's kind of indicative of the rot the whole country is involved in. 0.99

00:02:50.000 It's such a disgrace because you bring these foreign dignitaries, and the first thing they see is... 1.00

00:02:54.000 It's just the dereliction.

00:02:56.000 Yeah.

00:02:57.000 And it's a very poor reflection on really what the American spirit is about.

00:03:01.000 But, you know, that's for another conversation.

00:03:04.000 Yeah.

00:03:04.000 It seems like they could fix that.

00:03:06.000 Yeah.

00:03:07.000 Especially in that place.

00:03:09.000 Yeah.

00:03:09.000 One would hope, right?

00:03:10.000 Yeah.

00:03:10.000 I mean, Jesus Christ.

00:03:11.000 It's the nation's capital.

00:03:12.000 Yeah.

00:03:14.000 So I was offered a job to go back to the Pentagon in 2008 for a little while and basically run the integration between national-level intelligence information and local and state and tribal law enforcement.

00:03:29.000 So after 9-11, the country realized that we had a significant problem getting national-level information down to the cops on the ground that could actually do something about it.

00:03:39.000 Why?

00:03:39.000 Because he didn't have security clearances.

00:03:41.000 So they weren't allowed to be provided that information.

00:03:44.000 One of my jobs was to try to help fix that.

00:03:46.000 And shortly thereafter, I got there in 2008. It was probably early 2009 is when I was approached by two individuals who came to me and they said, look, we'd like to consider you for a program that we're part of.

00:04:01.000 It's a very nuanced program, very...

00:04:03.000 Secretive program.

00:04:04.000 Now, when you're in the government, you hear that all the time.

00:04:06.000 It's not, you know, people look and they say, oh, you have a secret clearance or a top secret clearance.

00:04:12.000 Millions of people have some sort of security clearance in the government.

00:04:15.000 And a lot, a lot of people have a top secret clearance.

00:04:18.000 So it's really not that uncommon.

00:04:19.000 It's really not that sexy.

00:04:20.000 So you didn't really know what you were getting involved in?

00:04:22.000 I didn't at all.

00:04:23.000 Not at all.

00:04:23.000 In fact, so, yeah, great question.

00:04:26.000 So, no, I didn't know what I was getting involved in.

00:04:28.000 And after several conversations, it occurred to me that their interest in me Was some of my background I had.

00:04:35.000 In my early career as a special agent in counterintelligence, I was protecting technologies, critical technologies, critical avionic technologies, for example, and some aerospace technologies.

00:04:47.000 So think of first stage solid rocket motor booster technology, Tomaha cruise missiles, stuff like that, Apache longbow.

00:04:55.000 So advanced avionics was something I was kind of already familiar with.

00:05:00.000 And at the same time, I had the counterintelligence background.

00:05:03.000 So I was asked to come in and run the counterintelligence and security aspect for a particular program, at which time I had no idea what the program even was.

00:05:12.000 So what does counterintelligence and security mean?

00:05:15.000 It just simply means making sure that our adversaries like Russia and China can't penetrate our organization and steal our secrets.

00:05:23.000 That's all it is.

00:05:24.000 It's kind of a fancy word for just saying security, information security and operational security.

00:05:29.000 So I remember I had a meeting.

00:05:31.000 They brought me to go see their director.

00:05:33.000 And it was in a...

00:05:35.000 I would tell you the location, but I was told by the Pentagon not to say the specific location of this office.

00:05:40.000 But it was somewhere in the D.C. area.

00:05:42.000 It was a facility that wasn't known publicly to have an intelligence office in there.

00:05:50.000 So I can't say the specific location.

00:05:53.000 But I went there.

00:05:54.000 And I went up to the top floor, I think it was the top floor, almost the top floor, and I met for the first time a gentleman named James Lakatsky, Dr. James Lakatsky, PhD.

00:06:07.000 And this guy was the epitome of a rocket scientist.

00:06:11.000 And when I say the epitome, I mean he was probably, and there's no exaggeration, the number one rocket scientist in the US government.

00:06:19.000 Now, He's a humble guy, so he'll probably tell you he wasn't, but he really was.

00:06:23.000 He's an amazing human being and very smart.

00:06:27.000 And after a very brief conversation, he looked at me and he said, I want to ask you a question.

00:06:32.000 I said, okay, sir.

00:06:33.000 And he said, what do you think about UFOs?

00:06:37.000 I said, well, I answered truthfully.

00:06:40.000 I said, I don't.

00:06:41.000 And he said, well, what do you mean?

00:06:42.000 You don't believe in them?

00:06:44.000 And I said, no, that's not what I said.

00:06:45.000 You asked me if I think, you know, what do I think about UFOs?

00:06:48.000 And frankly, I don't think about UFOs.

00:06:51.000 I really don't have the luxury to think about them.

00:06:53.000 I'm too busy, you know, working intelligence operations and whatnot.

00:06:57.000 And I remember him looking over his glasses and...

00:07:01.000 Very seriously, staring me straight in the eye and says, well, don't let your personal bias get the best of you, because what you may learn may surprise you and may challenge any preconceived notion of what you think something is or is not.

00:07:17.000 And so, let me backtrack for a minute.

00:07:19.000 I've never been a UFO guy.

00:07:21.000 People come up like, oh, you're that UFO guy.

00:07:22.000 I'm really not.

00:07:23.000 I was never really into science fiction as a kid.

00:07:26.000 I wasn't into the Star Trek or the Star Wars like a lot of people were.

00:07:32.000 So that was not my disposition.

00:07:35.000 I grew up, I guess, playing G.I. Joe and stuff like that.

00:07:39.000 So that wasn't my background.

00:07:42.000 And certainly in college, I studied microbiology and immunology with a focus on parasitology.

00:07:49.000 Not parapsychology, the study of parasites, parasitology.

00:07:52.000 So the scientific method has always been something that has been near and dear to me.

00:07:56.000 And then, of course, later on as a special agent, when you're conducting investigations, for me, I was always very fact-driven.

00:08:06.000 Kind of the old gumshoe, if you will, just the facts, ma'am sort of guy.

00:08:09.000 So I was never really prone to any type of...

00:08:14.000 If you will, affinity towards science fiction or even the UFO topic.

00:08:18.000 I just never really considered it.

00:08:22.000 So he says this to you, and then how—so we're talking about, like, what, 16 years ago?

00:08:29.000 15, 16 years ago?

00:08:30.000 Yeah, do the math, right?

00:08:31.000 So it's 2024, 2000, early 2009. So this is the beginning of your journey towards this sort of bizarre subject of whatever these things are.

00:08:45.000 So you don't have any real previous interest.

00:08:48.000 He says this to you.

00:08:49.000 And then what's the steps after that?

00:08:52.000 Like, how do you get introduced to this idea that these things are alien crafts?

00:08:56.000 Yeah.

00:08:57.000 So, great question.

00:09:00.000 So for some people, there's kind of two ways people process this information, at least in my experience.

00:09:06.000 And there may be others.

00:09:07.000 This has just been my observation.

00:09:08.000 Some people have this kind of revelatory moment, this epiphany where it's this aha moment where, oh my gosh, this is real, right?

00:09:16.000 For other people, it's kind of more of a slow, gradual realization.

00:09:20.000 And I think for me, I was probably in the second category.

00:09:23.000 More of a slow, gradual realization that...

00:09:26.000 This isn't a cover for something else.

00:09:28.000 This is really about UFOs.

00:09:31.000 So how do you first get introduced to these things?

00:09:33.000 Well, so I didn't get introduced to these things.

00:09:36.000 First of all, I was introduced to the reporting, right?

00:09:38.000 So there was these official reports that we were getting from the field.

00:09:41.000 There's official videos and whatnot that describe vehicles doing things, maneuvering in ways that, frankly, outperform anything we have in our inventory.

00:09:52.000 Now, keep in mind my background Was at some point in aerospace.

00:09:55.000 So I knew all the capabilities of an F-16 or, for example, an F-22 or the F-35.

00:10:02.000 And at the end of the day, as advanced as they are, they're still conventional aircraft.

00:10:07.000 You know, they still have the old, there's an adage they use for jet engines.

00:10:14.000 It may seem a little awkward here, but it's suck, squeeze, bang, and blow.

00:10:21.000 That's what a jet engine does. 0.82

00:10:22.000 Forgive me, that's what it does.

00:10:25.000 It's a conventional type engine.

00:10:27.000 Of course, you have a propeller too that can displace air and whatnot.

00:10:30.000 These vehicles were different.

00:10:32.000 These vehicles, for the most part, didn't have any type of associated characteristic that you or I or any normal person would associate With a plane, with an airplane, an aircraft, right?

00:10:43.000 And yet it's flying.

00:10:44.000 So how does an airplane work?

00:10:46.000 Well, let's say this cigar, for example, is an airplane, and there's four fundamental forces.

00:10:50.000 And so you have thrust, lift, drag, and weight.

00:10:54.000 And if you understand those, you can build wings, and you create lift, and you can fly.

00:10:59.000 And then you have to have an engine for that thrust and whatnot.

00:11:02.000 The things that our military pilots were encountering didn't have that.

00:11:06.000 They didn't have wings.

00:11:08.000 They didn't have rudders and ailerons and control surfaces.

00:11:10.000 They didn't have cockpits.

00:11:11.000 They didn't have engines and no obvious signs of propulsion.

00:11:15.000 They were doing things and maneuvering in ways that, frankly, Defied anything that we had in our inventory and we were pretty certain the enemies didn't have either.

00:11:25.000 Our adversary didn't have these technologies either.

00:11:27.000 And even more perplexing is that they were being encountered over controlled U.S. airspace and over sensitive military installations.

00:11:35.000 So, you know, from that perspective, you've got a real national security concern on your hands.

00:11:41.000 So you said video.

00:11:43.000 Do you remember the first thing that you saw?

00:11:47.000 Boy, there's so many.

00:11:48.000 You know, I think part of the challenge is that most people here in this country, they're familiar with the three videos, right, that have been famously released by the Pentagon.

00:11:58.000 The Go Fast.

00:11:59.000 Go Fast, Gimbal, FLIR, correct.

00:12:01.000 Right.

00:12:01.000 But those are the least compelling of all the videos that the government has.

00:12:05.000 Those were unclassified.

00:12:06.000 And so those were the ones, those were kind of the low-hanging fruit that could be released to the general public.

00:12:11.000 There's stuff out there that's like 4K ultra-high definition, right?

00:12:15.000 So when you see something like that from a certain military platform or a certain military equity or an intelligence collection platform, you have to look at that and say, well, what is that?

00:12:26.000 What the hell is that?

00:12:27.000 And more importantly, that data is being backed up by radar data, right?

00:12:30.000 So you've got electro-optical data like gun camera footage or pod or FLIR video, and then you've got Radar data.

00:12:38.000 That is actually confirming what the video is picking up.

00:12:42.000 And then you've got eyewitnesses that are also watching it, right?

00:12:45.000 So you've got trained observers, pilots that can recognize the silhouette between an SU-22 and a MiG-25 from 20 miles away and make a split-second decision.

00:12:55.000 Is it friend or foe?

00:12:56.000 Do I kill it or do I let it live? 1.00

00:12:59.000 And they're reporting it. 0.98

00:13:00.000 So you have now, you know, three separate, if you will, collection platforms, the human eye being one of them.

00:13:06.000 You've got gun camera footage and you've got radar footage, all describing the same event at the same place at the same time under the same circumstances, right?

00:13:17.000 And so keep in mind with my background as a former special agent in counterintelligence, if this was in front of a jury, You know, as I've said before, I think we're well beyond reasonable doubt.

00:13:28.000 That is something there.

00:13:29.000 I mean, that is real.

00:13:30.000 That's not an atmospheric aberration.

00:13:32.000 It's not an anomaly.

00:13:34.000 That is something there.

00:13:35.000 It's tangible.

00:13:36.000 So was there an aha moment for you? 0.99

00:13:38.000 Like the first thing that you saw that you looked at and you go, what the fuck? 0.98

00:13:44.000 No, like I said, for me it was more slow and gradual. 0.99

00:13:46.000 I didn't...

00:13:47.000 What was the first thing that you saw that made you realize that there's something going on here that defies conventional wisdom or conventional understanding of propulsion systems?

00:13:58.000 I think for me one of the most compelling moments was when I attended...

00:14:04.000 Boy, let me go back to memory banks.

00:14:06.000 I attended a dinner with some individuals who were already associated with the larger umbrella program called ASAP. And I attended dinner at a Washington, D.C. hotel, and a Brazilian general attended this dinner.

00:14:22.000 And the dinner was sponsored by a gentleman named Robert Bigelow.

00:14:26.000 The famous billionaire hotelier.

00:14:28.000 Yeah, I've met him.

00:14:28.000 I've met him on the podcast.

00:14:29.000 Yeah.

00:14:30.000 And by the way, he's an American hero.

00:14:32.000 He's a patriot.

00:14:33.000 He's a brilliant guy.

00:14:34.000 He is brilliant.

00:14:34.000 And people don't realize that he self-funded a lot of this stuff on behalf of the U.S. government by himself.

00:14:41.000 He paid to do it himself.

00:14:45.000 He really is an American patriot, in my opinion.

00:14:49.000 But anyways, he flew in this guy named General Uchoa.

00:14:52.000 General Uchoa was a Brazilian general, very, very senior in the Brazilian government, who led an investigation about an event that occurred over several days.

00:15:03.000 Is this the Varginha incident?

00:15:05.000 No, it's actually called Colares in Brazil, yeah.

00:15:09.000 And the Colares incident.

00:15:10.000 Yeah, I think.

00:15:26.000 And explain the concern they had and some of the interactions the Brazilian government officials had with these UAP that really I left there that dinner scratching my head and really at that point beginning to absorb The profoundness,

00:15:44.000 that we're dealing with something that is real.

00:15:47.000 This is not a cover plan for some other technology we're trying to protect.

00:15:50.000 Did he show you this video evidence?

00:15:52.000 I was sitting at a table like this.

00:15:55.000 There was a whole lot of people at the table.

00:15:57.000 He was sitting at the head.

00:15:58.000 I was kind of way down over here.

00:15:59.000 And he brought a manila envelope, and he was showing photographs to everybody, right?

00:16:04.000 And some reporting as well.

00:16:06.000 I think he brought, if I recall correctly, his daughter to translate, because I don't think English was his, you know, very good.

00:16:12.000 It wasn't his language.

00:16:15.000 But for me, that was, and I think for one of my colleagues, too, which I probably can't say his name right now because he hasn't come out publicly yet, but we both left that dinner.

00:16:24.000 I think scratching our heads and saying, wow, this is legit.

00:16:27.000 This is real.

00:16:28.000 The U.S. government is interested in this and there is interest by our government.

00:16:34.000 After that dinner, attending more meetings and beginning to read the reports, the field reports, and speaking to the scientists, it became evident to me that this was a very serious issue.

00:16:45.000 We had near misses over some of our areas of operation.

00:16:49.000 In some cases, literally, these UAP splitting a combat formation.

00:16:53.000 Now, if you know how planes fly, they fly very close in a combat situation.

00:16:57.000 These things were splitting the formation, right?

00:17:00.000 That there were reports being provided through the Air Force, mostly through the Navy, about air safety issues.

00:17:09.000 Where pilots literally could run into these things, right?

00:17:12.000 They were pervasive.

00:17:14.000 It wasn't like a onesie and twosie.

00:17:15.000 Was there ever an incident where a pilot or a jet did run into something?

00:17:19.000 Not that I'm aware of what I can tell you that there has been incidents where there appears to be some sort of provocation where one of these things seems to be...

00:17:30.000 Coming deliberately close to an aircraft, not necessarily trying to hit it, but maybe trying to demonstrate performance capabilities.

00:17:37.000 There was one video in particular.

00:17:41.000 I haven't been cleared by the Pentagon, so let me see if I can speak about it in general terms.

00:17:45.000 There's a pilot flying.

00:17:48.000 And you can hear on the radio this chatter back and forth.

00:17:51.000 Do you see it?

00:17:52.000 Do you have eyes down on it?

00:17:53.000 Pilot, nope.

00:17:54.000 Negative.

00:17:54.000 No eyes down.

00:17:55.000 Okay, you should have it on our radar.

00:17:56.000 Yeah, I got something on our radar, but no eyes.

00:17:58.000 I can't see it.

00:17:59.000 And then all of a sudden, a craft...

00:18:03.000 An object goes whizzing right by the cockpit, and I mean probably like 15 feet away.

00:18:09.000 And you can hear the pilot, the expletives of the pilot, you know, I won't see it here on air, but you can imagine, right, what a pilot would say when they're very, very surprised.

00:18:20.000 That was one.

00:18:21.000 Can you describe what he saw?

00:18:24.000 I think I can.

00:18:25.000 I want to be careful that I don't – because, again, I haven't had – what I have approval to talk about, I've spoken about.

00:18:32.000 Let me preface this by saying I still have my security clearance.

00:18:35.000 And on occasion, I still will consult for the U.S. government.

00:18:38.000 And so I want to be very mindful.

00:18:40.000 I have no problem going up all the way to the line.

00:18:42.000 Right.

00:18:42.000 Understood.

00:18:43.000 But if I put up a pinky toe over that line, they're going to get me.

00:18:47.000 But it was a wedge-shaped craft.

00:18:50.000 Wedge-shaped.

00:18:51.000 Wedge-shaped, like triangular.

00:18:55.000 Yeah, like a wedge.

00:18:57.000 I don't know how else to describe it.

00:18:58.000 I could draw it for you if you want.

00:19:00.000 Sure, you can.

00:19:03.000 So just like a wedge that you would split wood with?

00:19:06.000 Like that kind of a wedge?

00:19:07.000 Yeah, but it was silver metallic and like a diamond maybe.

00:19:12.000 That's a better way to describe it.

00:19:14.000 Like a diamond almost.

00:19:16.000 And it looked kind of like that, really.

00:19:20.000 It's just a little...

00:19:22.000 And that kind of shape is something that's been reported multiple times.

00:19:27.000 So that was the first time I ever saw something like that.

00:19:30.000 To me, it was...

00:19:31.000 Keep in mind, I never followed this topic.

00:19:33.000 So every time I'm seeing one of these videos, I'm kind of seeing something for the very first time.

00:19:37.000 So lenticular, whether it's a disc-shaped craft or it's It's a wedge-shaped craft or a diamond-shaped craft or a triangle-shaped craft, boomerang in some cases.

00:19:46.000 These were all new to me.

00:19:48.000 So it was very, very perplexing.

00:19:50.000 And obviously, to our military pilots, it was very concerning.

00:19:54.000 And I think when you look at some of the gold standard cases we had, like the Nimitz, for example, that case, you have this overwhelming number of sensors Looking at the same thing going on that the pilots are reporting.

00:20:10.000 And for me, that was most compelling.

00:20:12.000 Like I said, more than...

00:20:13.000 Eyewitness testimony is important, but at the end of the day, you know, grandma seeing some lights in her backyard doesn't really do it for me.

00:20:20.000 You know, I'm a fact-oriented kind of guy.

00:20:23.000 I've got to see the data.

00:20:24.000 Let the data...

00:20:26.000 Provide us the information we need so then we can make a conclusion.

00:20:30.000 If you start seeing UFOs in the sky everywhere, well, chances are they're probably not.

00:20:35.000 It's a quadcopter, it's a balloon, it's an aircraft, it could be all sorts of things.

00:20:40.000 That's why I think from our perspective, having the fundamental categories, the observables we call them, was so important because they are so beyond what a normal aircraft, a traditional conventional aircraft can do At that point, you realize you're dealing with some sort of beyond next generation technology.

00:20:59.000 And that's when it gets compelling for guys like me, right?

00:21:02.000 When you're seeing performance capabilities that far exceed, far surpass anything we have, and I'm talking even the very, very best technology we have, we don't come close to that.

00:21:14.000 And no visible means of propulsion?

00:21:16.000 No, or obvious signs of lift, right?

00:21:19.000 And not even a cockpit.

00:21:20.000 You have to scratch your head and see what's going on.

00:21:23.000 Interestingly, I'll share with you...

00:21:24.000 So no windows?

00:21:25.000 No windows.

00:21:26.000 Well, in some cases, no windows.

00:21:28.000 Other cases, people will report what they think are windows.

00:21:31.000 They say, oh, I saw windows.

00:21:32.000 But at the end of the day, you know, we're looking that in terms of what we think a window is, right?

00:21:38.000 So you see a car, you see windows.

00:21:40.000 Or a plane, those are windows.

00:21:42.000 I didn't see any information to suggest that there were actually windows, even though an eyewitness might describe a window, because we are describing something of something that we recognize.

00:21:53.000 And so we say, oh, that might be a window or whatnot.

00:21:55.000 But it might not be a window.

00:21:57.000 And so I want to be very careful to say there were no windows.

00:22:01.000 There could have been, but the ones that I was privy to that I saw, I didn't see any obvious signs of like a windshield or a window.

00:22:08.000 I didn't see anything like that.

00:22:09.000 I saw vehicles that were doing things that were just left you scratching your head.

00:22:16.000 And they were real, like I said, because you're backing it up with all this other sensor data.

00:22:20.000 And some of the best sophisticated sensor data, by the way, at the time on the planet, That we have, right?

00:22:26.000 Like the SPY1 radar and the E2 Hawkeye and some of the other radar capabilities and technical capabilities that other intelligence agencies have that I can't discuss here.

00:22:34.000 You know, this is the stuff that helps us put, forgive the It's an analogy here, but warheads on foreheads.

00:22:41.000 When we're going to take a strike against a terrorist, these are the same sensor systems we use to prosecute that war, that act, both in combat and not in combat.

00:22:54.000 So, yeah, that for me was very compelling.

00:22:59.000 And it's lots and lots of videos.

00:23:00.000 People think that there's only three videos.

00:23:03.000 Those don't even scratch the surface.

00:23:06.000 There are hundreds and hundreds of videos That the intelligence community and the Department of Defense have on these things.

00:23:14.000 Has there ever been any discussion about releasing any of these?

00:23:19.000 I don't want to speak on behalf of the government.

00:23:21.000 I... Colleagues of mine, like Chris Mellon, who have been very, very, very active in this topic and have actually been responsible for a lot of what we see now happening in Congress, has been championing that.

00:23:34.000 He is the one who says, look, we need more videos to come out so the American people can see for themselves What we've been dealing with.

00:23:41.000 When I had Chris Mellon in the Pentagon, he saw those videos.

00:23:44.000 And up to that point, when he was a senior person at the Pentagon, like very senior, one of his jobs as the senior intelligence official, he asked, hey, do we have any UAP, UFO videos, investigations, anything like that?

00:23:59.000 And he told him no.

00:24:00.000 So when he came to the Pentagon and saw what we actually did have...

00:24:04.000 You can imagine someone like Chris Mellon, right?

00:24:06.000 He wasn't very happy.

00:24:08.000 He was actually pretty disappointed, saying why?

00:24:12.000 Why was I told no?

00:24:13.000 I can see these videos.

00:24:14.000 Clearly, I see the reports.

00:24:17.000 Clearly, this is something that we're interested in as a Department of Defense.

00:24:20.000 And yet, when I was one of the senior guys, he got the Heisman, right?

00:24:24.000 He was being told no.

00:24:26.000 And so that was, I think, a point for him that really – that's probably the – and I don't want to speak for my friend Chris, but I suspect that was probably the spark that got him to the point where he said, OK, we have to do something about this.

00:24:38.000 This is BS. Right?

00:24:40.000 Yeah, when I was talking to him, it seemed like that was his perspective, that this was something that really should be, at least in some way, shape, or form, released to the general public.

00:24:51.000 Just to solidify the conversation, just to let people know, like, these are real.

00:24:56.000 This is a real thing.

00:24:57.000 These are not just...

00:24:58.000 Have you seen the one that people were filming just a couple of days ago in Palmdale, California?

00:25:03.000 Yeah.

00:25:03.000 Yeah, I think they said those were drones, though.

00:25:05.000 If I'm not mistaken, I think the jury came out.

00:25:07.000 If I'm not mistaken, I could be wrong, that it was somebody using drones with some LED lights.

00:25:12.000 You can do wild things with drones now.

00:25:14.000 You absolutely can.

00:25:16.000 Have you seen the ones where they can create images in the sky?

00:25:17.000 100%.

00:25:18.000 Like dragons and stuff with drones?

00:25:19.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:25:20.000 So, you know, we have to be careful.

00:25:22.000 As our own technology begins to advance, There's going to be pranksters out there.

00:25:27.000 And that's one of the things that for me in AATIP, I always went into an investigation or a case assuming that it was man-made.

00:25:35.000 And until I saw the compelling data that said otherwise, we were always going to assume or presume that this was something that was conventional.

00:25:42.000 It was probably misidentified.

00:25:44.000 But it wasn't exotic.

00:25:47.000 And then once the data suggests otherwise, then you kind of go into that other mode of, okay, now what are we dealing with?

00:25:55.000 Again, especially on the backdrop of the five performance observables, that's when you start to say, okay, yeah, this is not an F-16.

00:26:04.000 This is not a Chinese aircraft.

00:26:06.000 This is something different.

00:26:08.000 Right.

00:26:08.000 What is the oldest video footage or film footage that you have ever seen or heard?

00:26:15.000 Civilian or military?

00:26:17.000 It doesn't matter. 0.99

00:26:17.000 What is the oldest where it's like, okay, what the fuck is this? 0.99

00:26:21.000 What's the oldest stuff that's compelling?

00:26:24.000 The point is what I'm trying to get at is a lot of people point to the possibility that there's some sort of a secret program, some sort of secret propulsion, gravity-based, whatever it is, that's completely different than conventional propulsion systems that the U.S. government has and that they're operating these drones.

00:26:43.000 And the problem with that Is always the Kenneth Arnold sightings, the Roswell, the sightings from a time where that technology just wasn't available at all?

00:26:54.000 Joe, I'm so glad you asked me that question.

00:26:56.000 It just so happens I brought you something.

00:26:59.000 When the glasses come out, you know it's getting serious.

00:27:02.000 It means I'm old.

00:27:04.000 Me too.

00:27:05.000 I'm going to provide you a document here.

00:27:09.000 It's a short document, but the portions, I think, are highlighted that you're going to want to pay attention to.

00:27:16.000 And let's see here.

00:27:18.000 Okay.

00:27:19.000 So if this is just for you and if your audience is interested, it's this paragraph here you're going to want to read, and then it's the last one that's highlighted, and then take a look at the date and the subject line.

00:27:29.000 This is it right here.

00:27:29.000 Jamie brought it up here.

00:27:31.000 Oh, great.

00:27:31.000 Yeah, so...

00:27:31.000 Which one do I want to read again?

00:27:32.000 Paragraph six right now.

00:27:33.000 So if you want to scroll down to paragraph six, there you go.

00:27:37.000 Okay.

00:27:37.000 This summary of observations of aerial phenomenon has been prepared for the purpose of reemphasizing and reiterating the fact that the phenomena have continuously occurred in the New Mexico skies during the past 18 months.

00:27:50.000 And are continuing to occur.

00:27:52.000 And secondly, that these phenomena are occurring in the vicinity of sensitive military and government installations.

00:27:59.000 And if you want to go back to like paragraph two, there you go.

00:28:03.000 The highlighted part?

00:28:04.000 Yeah, the observers of.

00:28:05.000 The observers of those phenomena include scientists, special agents of the Office of Special Investigations, The U.S. Air Force, airline pilots, military pilots, Los Alamos security inspectors, military personnel, and many other persons of various occupations whose reliability is not questioned.

00:28:23.000 And now scroll to the very top of that document.

00:28:26.000 It says that it was determined above that.

00:28:30.000 The Summary of Observations of Aerial Phenomenon in the New Mexico Area, December 1948 to May 1950. And the date of that document, if you scroll a little bit higher you are going to see the date of that memo.

00:28:44.000 Oh, 1950. Yes, sir.

00:28:45.000 May 25th, 1950. It says that it was determined that the frequency of unexplained error phenomena in the New Mexico area was such that an organized plan of reporting these observations should be undertaken.

00:29:00.000 Right.

00:29:01.000 So this is the beginning of Project Blue Book?

00:29:03.000 So this is the recognition that we have a serious problem over our sensitive military installations.

00:29:11.000 This is nothing new.

00:29:12.000 This is not...

00:29:13.000 1970s reverse-engineered technology or some sort of special technology.

00:29:17.000 Right.

00:29:17.000 1950, they're talking about this.

00:29:19.000 We had just broken the sound barrier, and we had not yet entered into space.

00:29:24.000 And we have these things that are performing in ways that, frankly, we can't replicate.

00:29:29.000 I brought a few more of these later on to emphasize that point you just brought up at some point, if you're interested.

00:29:34.000 Yeah.

00:29:35.000 But it highlights that these are official government documents through official government personnel.

00:29:42.000 Raising the alarm bells, just like we did in ASAP and ATIPS. And so, this is nothing new.

00:29:47.000 Now, if you want to look at this from an adversarial perspective, Our government has already said that's not ours, right?

00:29:54.000 If you look at a 1950 Sabre jet, for example, it wasn't even supersonic.

00:30:00.000 And yet these things that we are observing in some cases are doing – I brought some more documents here – multiples of Mach and doing velocities and doing things that we frankly could not do back then and frankly we still can't do in some cases.

00:30:15.000 Temporally speaking, the only two countries in the world may have a chance of doing something like that would be Russia and China.

00:30:22.000 And now in 1950, where was China?

00:30:24.000 It was in the middle of a famine at the time, and where was Russia?

00:30:27.000 Russia was trying to develop the atomic bomb and still was using horse-drawn carts for a lot of their military operations.

00:30:37.000 Temporally speaking, it doesn't make sense.

00:30:39.000 This is the analogy I've used before, Joe, that it would be like Carter going into King Tut's tomb for the very first time in the 1920s, discovering King Tut's tomb, and when he goes in, he finds a fully assembled 747 jet.

00:30:54.000 It doesn't make sense.

00:30:55.000 Temporally speaking, they did not have that technology.

00:30:59.000 So, is it possible, and I'll be very careful what I say, that the U.S. government Has some sort of exotic technology?

00:31:07.000 Well, my answer is I sure hope so because, you know, we want to have an advantage over our adversaries.

00:31:12.000 But in 1950, that wasn't the case.

00:31:15.000 Right.

00:31:16.000 And do they have any film of these crafts from New Mexico?

00:31:20.000 There is film of many craft, and not just New Mexico per se, but over many military installations.

00:31:25.000 I got another one for you.

00:31:26.000 I'll provide you.

00:31:28.000 You don't have to waste your time reading it, but I think you'll appreciate this.

00:31:34.000 Take a look at the date of this and who it's to and who it's from, and I think you'll find the subject line very interesting.

00:31:42.000 Okay, which one?

00:31:43.000 What part am I reading here?

00:31:44.000 Just to highlight a portion so you can see the top of the document, who it's from, who it's to, and the date, and what the subject line is.

00:31:51.000 Director of Special Investigate...

00:31:54.000 What does it say?

00:31:54.000 It's hard because it's all scratchy.

00:31:56.000 Yeah, it's an old reproduction of official government document.

00:31:59.000 Bottom line, it's a document from J. Edgar Hoover.

00:32:03.000 Oh, I see.

00:32:04.000 From the Director of the FBI. Department of the Air Force, the Pentagon...

00:32:08.000 Yeah, J. Edgar Hoover, Director of Federal Bureau of Investigations.

00:32:12.000 And read the subject line of that memo.

00:32:18.000 Flying...

00:32:19.000 God, it's hard to read because it's all screwy.

00:32:23.000 Flying disks, I should say.

00:32:24.000 Flying disks over the Savannah.

00:32:27.000 There's a sensitive facility that we had where we were doing atomic development.

00:32:33.000 Yeah, flying disks reportedly seen in the vicinity of something, river plant?

00:32:39.000 Savannah River Plant, yes, sir.

00:32:40.000 Okay.

00:32:41.000 That's correct.

00:32:41.000 And so that's just...

00:32:42.000 Atomic Energy Commission.

00:32:43.000 Yeah.

00:32:44.000 And the date of that being, you know, 1952, right?

00:32:47.000 Right.

00:32:47.000 So this is verified?

00:32:51.000 This is...

00:32:52.000 That was released by the government.

00:32:53.000 Those are all official.

00:32:55.000 All these are official U.S. government documentation that anybody can pull up anytime they want.

00:33:00.000 Did they let you see any of these ancient films, these films from the 1950s of these things?

00:33:05.000 So, great question.

00:33:06.000 Our focus was really more...

00:33:08.000 It was more like taking a picture of where we are now.

00:33:11.000 But wouldn't you want to just – like if you really think this thing is from somewhere else, the best example of it definitely not being ours is something from the 1950s.

00:33:20.000 Sure.

00:33:20.000 And anecdotally, that's great.

00:33:22.000 But keep in mind on the backdrop of national security, when you go to a general and you say – They should clean this up by the way.

00:33:28.000 It's crazy.

00:33:29.000 It's like half the things are blotted out and scratchy.

00:33:33.000 Yeah, that's Uncle Sam for you.

00:33:36.000 You know, when you go to a general or...

00:33:38.000 It makes me suspicious.

00:33:39.000 No, you can find it.

00:33:40.000 I know, I know, I know.

00:33:41.000 But it was just like...

00:33:41.000 Yeah, the government released that.

00:33:43.000 I mean, they admit that. 0.99

00:33:44.000 What are they, a fucking shitty old 1920 fax machine? 1.00

00:33:47.000 Look at that. 1.00

00:33:47.000 It's terrible. 1.00

00:33:48.000 Well, remember, they were using typewriters back then too, right?

00:33:49.000 And ink smears.

00:33:51.000 Blotchy.

00:33:51.000 Yeah, blotchy.

00:33:52.000 And I'm sure the original is probably much cleaner.

00:33:55.000 But that's what the government put out online for people to review.

00:33:58.000 So when you're going back to answer your question, when you are going to a general or you're going to a military leader about this topic, if you go back to anecdotal stuff like, oh, this is something from 1950s, they're not interested.

00:34:11.000 They're like, look, what is going on now?

00:34:13.000 What is the threat now?

00:34:15.000 I've got a carrier strike group out in the water.

00:34:18.000 I'm getting reports these things are coming in and interrogating the ship.

00:34:21.000 You know, what's going on?

00:34:22.000 I want to see that.

00:34:23.000 I want to see the videos.

00:34:24.000 I want to see the reporting.

00:34:25.000 I want to see the deck logs and what the commander says.

00:34:28.000 And I want to know the pilots.

00:34:29.000 I want to talk to the pilots, the radar operators.

00:34:31.000 That's their focus.

00:34:32.000 They're not interested.

00:34:33.000 By the way, we've tried a few times.

00:34:35.000 And the further back in time we go, the less interested they were.

00:34:38.000 So it was really...

00:34:39.000 Interesting.

00:34:40.000 Yeah.

00:34:40.000 It was really the current information.

00:34:42.000 What's going on now?

00:34:43.000 I'm not interested in what happened yesterday.

00:34:44.000 They're just taking a pragmatic approach.

00:34:46.000 Yeah.

00:34:46.000 And it's understandable.

00:34:47.000 From a military perspective, a national security perspective, Right.

00:34:56.000 Makes sense.

00:35:00.000 Right.

00:35:13.000 So do they have repeated footage?

00:35:15.000 Because you're saying three decades, but obviously we're talking about 1950. Did they have stuff from the 1980s, stuff from the 1990s?

00:35:21.000 There was reporting, yeah.

00:35:22.000 And again, I got to be careful because some of that stuff I haven't been cleared to talk about.

00:35:25.000 But there are reports we call foreign intelligence, FI, foreign intelligence reports.

00:35:32.000 I can't say where or who or anything like that.

00:35:34.000 But on classified systems where we know without a shadow of a doubt UAPs were encountered in other countries, adversarial countries.

00:35:43.000 Why?

00:35:43.000 Because we spy on them and we know.

00:35:46.000 Again, I can't say how we know and what not because I get in trouble, but just...

00:35:50.000 So we know this is not a United States phenomenon.

00:35:54.000 Precisely.

00:35:55.000 It is not a US-only phenomenon.

00:35:58.000 And in fact, in other countries, whether it's in Latin America, South America, or in Europe, or Russia, China, there is an extreme interest in this topic.

00:36:06.000 In fact, the Chinese, it was in the newspaper, I think it was the China Morning Sun, they have something called the Five Continents Initiative, where allegedly they were trying to Broker a deal with the United Nations that would allow China to run all the UFO investigations for the United Nations,

00:36:23.000 right?

00:36:23.000 So we also know that Russia, they've come out and said, yeah, we're interested in this topic.

00:36:27.000 There was some released old KGB footage that showed MIG interactions with these UAP. And there's also in Latin America, you have the same thing.

00:36:35.000 If you go to Latin America now, they don't have the same level of stigma and taboo associated with this topic like we do.

00:36:41.000 And so they talk freely about it.

00:36:43.000 They have no problem talking.

00:36:45.000 In fact, when I was in the Patagonia area of Argentina, there is a near town called Barreloche and Las Lajas.

00:36:53.000 One of the chief of police was telling me there's an area there called La Miranda.

00:36:58.000 La Miranda means to see, to view.

00:37:00.000 And they call it that, the town, and because UAP are so frequent there that local law enforcement actually built an observatory, an observation post, to look at these things because they were so frequent.

00:37:12.000 So this is not a new phenomenon.

00:37:14.000 This is something that's been around for quite a long time.

00:37:17.000 The problem is, in my opinion, and I could be wrong, but this is my assessment, is The reason why it's so difficult to have the conversation here is because our government had placed so much emphasis and interest trying to stigmatize this topic that it almost worked too well.

00:37:32.000 Now, we're at the point where we should be having this conversation and people still don't want to because they think it's crazy.

00:37:38.000 You think of tinfoil hats and Elvis on the mothership, when in reality, we're talking about a real national security issue.

00:37:43.000 I mean, these things are here.

00:37:44.000 You have, Joe, you have a former director of national intelligence, Radcliffe, a former director of CIA. Brennan, you have former presidents all coming out and saying, yeah, there's something to it.

00:37:56.000 It's real, right?

00:37:57.000 Now, what it is, where it's from and all that stuff, I'm not sure we're quite ready to go there yet.

00:38:02.000 But the acknowledgement is, hey, man, yeah, this is real.

00:38:06.000 It's not ours.

00:38:06.000 And we probably should do something about it.

00:38:09.000 So if we go back to the history of the debunking of it, you know, like the Project Blue Book stuff, J. Allen Hynek, after he had left Project Blue Book, he became a proponent of UFO disclosure.

00:38:22.000 During Project Blue Book, it was his job to essentially dismiss everything and to come up with some sort of a reason, swamp gas, mass hallucinations, whatever it was, to attribute all these sightings to something that was very easy to explain.

00:38:40.000 Is there any documentation or any discussion of why they did that, why they chose to debunk everything?

00:38:47.000 Yeah.

00:38:48.000 My understanding is you have to look at where America was at the time they were doing these investigations.

00:38:53.000 It was at the height of the Cold War, right?

00:38:56.000 And despite what some people think, the Cold War wasn't very cold at all.

00:39:00.000 It was pretty hot.

00:39:01.000 And we had Russia and the United States engaging in these proxy wars.

00:39:05.000 Neither side wanted to let the other side know what we had and what we didn't know, right?

00:39:11.000 So if you have these UAP coming in and out, the last thing you want to do is tell the other side, broadcast, this is what we've learned from it, and more importantly, this is what we don't know about it, right?

00:39:21.000 And so both sides were keeping this very quiet, but there was an interesting agreement at the classified level, I believe in the late 60s, where...

00:39:29.000 There was this relationship with the United States.

00:39:31.000 We were putting up our northern tier radar system to detect then Soviet Union ICBMs.

00:39:37.000 And they were doing the same thing, right?

00:39:38.000 Because none of us really trusted each other.

00:39:40.000 But we trusted each other enough to say, look, before you hit that button, if you see something coming over the horizon, before you hit that button and launch, give us a call because...

00:39:51.000 It might be a UFO, right?

00:39:52.000 And we don't want to start World War III because either side mistakes the UFO for an ICBM. And that's how serious they took the topic.

00:40:00.000 I mean that's real.

00:40:01.000 That's a real memo that existed between the United States and Russia.

00:40:05.000 So that is an indicator how much both sides took this topic seriously.

00:40:10.000 Yeah.

00:40:10.000 Jesus.

00:40:11.000 And so when Philip Corso was dismissing all these different things, did they have anything, any film footage, any stuff from that time from Project Blue Book that was like definitively not ours?

00:40:30.000 I'm aware of the fact that people say it does exist and people have been briefed on it.

00:40:35.000 I wasn't privy to that.

00:40:36.000 I was, again, more focused on the here and now.

00:40:38.000 I was aware of people who had attended certain meetings, very senior level meetings where that was discussed, where they saw certain footage.

00:40:46.000 But I'm hearing that secondhand.

00:40:48.000 I did not see the old footage.

00:40:51.000 My focus was more on the current what's going on now.

00:40:55.000 But back to your point.

00:40:56.000 Why was this effort to try to create so much stigma and taboo?

00:41:00.000 I think it was because of that.

00:41:01.000 I think because you had Russia and US at this weird stalemate where neither one wanted to tell the other side what we know and what we didn't know about UAP. And really, I think the focus from a national security perspective, let's say you're a general and I'm a general.

00:41:14.000 Look, we've got a real cold war going on here right now.

00:41:18.000 As long as these things aren't coming in and zapping my people, that's going to be my focus right now.

00:41:22.000 That's a real potential threat that I have to deal with now.

00:41:25.000 I've got Russia pointing nukes at me and I'm pointing nukes at them at any time we could launch. 0.72

00:41:30.000 Let's focus on that more so than the other stuff.

00:41:33.000 And that has been my observation on why...

00:41:38.000 They didn't want to address the problem, the challenge openly with the general public back.

00:41:44.000 And they also were worried.

00:41:45.000 There was several studies that suggested that most people would be very uncomfortable with that idea that there's something else in the cosmos potentially or even right here on Earth.

00:41:55.000 And that it would create some sort of societal disruption, right?

00:41:59.000 They didn't want to cause panic.

00:42:01.000 They were afraid that people would kind of like think of a run on Wall Street, right?

00:42:04.000 When people get panic, they do kind of strange things sometimes.

00:42:07.000 And I think the government was very worried about that.

00:42:10.000 What's the most compelling modern thing that you've seen?

00:42:13.000 Oh, my God.

00:42:14.000 I can't talk about it, unfortunately.

00:42:16.000 This is my frustration, Joe, because I know what I've seen.

00:42:18.000 I know what my colleagues have seen, right?

00:42:20.000 And to this day, there's video that's coming in on a regular routine basis that is very, very compelling.

00:42:28.000 How do they hide this stuff from the general public?

00:42:30.000 Well, we have classified systems.

00:42:31.000 We hide a lot of things.

00:42:32.000 But how is it getting filmed?

00:42:34.000 Is any of it getting filmed by the general public or is all this military stuff?

00:42:38.000 So, let me backtrack a little bit.

00:42:40.000 There's a general public that is filming stuff, but from a Department of Defense perspective, our focus—now, Arrow is a different story, but when I was in the government, we had to be very, very careful of something we called intelligence oversight.

00:42:54.000 Back in the 60s and 70s, the U.S. intelligence apparatus, particularly in the Department of Defense— You don't say.

00:43:07.000 Crazy.

00:43:19.000 On American citizens. 0.99

00:43:21.000 You can't do it.

00:43:21.000 It's illegal, right?

00:43:22.000 So you have Executive Order 12333 and all these other rules and laws and DOD 5240.1 that all come out and say no mas. 0.61

00:43:29.000 So Department of Defense is supposed to focus on military.

00:43:34.000 That's it.

00:43:35.000 You don't bring in U.S. persons' information and ingest them into a Department of Defense It seems like you got plenty of compelling footage from the military.

00:44:04.000 Overwhelming.

00:44:05.000 Overwhelming.

00:44:06.000 There's absolutely no doubt that we didn't have to look at civilian data because we had Better collection sensor systems from the military that was looking at stuff and giving us better insight.

00:44:15.000 If you can't tell us about – can you give us some sort of an understanding of like what you're talking about?

00:44:21.000 Yeah, sure.

00:44:24.000 Without being specific?

00:44:25.000 Yeah.

00:44:25.000 Let me see.

00:44:27.000 OK. Yeah.

00:44:29.000 There is a video, high-resolution video, of...

00:44:34.000 I can't say what platform it was taken from.

00:44:36.000 I can't say where it was taken from.

00:44:37.000 But an object that...

00:44:41.000 Do you know how large an offshore oil derrick is?

00:44:44.000 They're huge, right?

00:44:45.000 They're almost like a small city, right?

00:44:47.000 They're like one city block.

00:44:49.000 They're huge.

00:44:50.000 They're enormous things.

00:44:53.000 There is a video that shows one of these objects underwater.

00:44:58.000 That goes by, the speed was calculated between 450 and 550 knots underwater, and it was bigger than the offshore derrick that it was passing, because you could see in the video the offshore derrick, and you could see this thing zip right by it.

00:45:15.000 Jesus.

00:45:16.000 Yeah.

00:45:17.000 So that's a lot of them, right?

00:45:18.000 A lot of them are reported as being transmedium.

00:45:22.000 Right.

00:45:22.000 So exactly.

00:45:23.000 Why do we use the term UAP, right?

00:45:26.000 Now it's unidentified anomalous phenomenon because it's all domain.

00:45:29.000 Initially it was UFO, unidentified flying object.

00:45:32.000 And for several reasons they changed the name.

00:45:34.000 One of them not just because of stigma like people think.

00:45:37.000 Right.

00:45:39.000 Right.

00:46:00.000 All the observations we were seeing.

00:46:02.000 So now the term UAP, I think the latest description of it is unidentified anomalous phenomenon to help describe this multi-domain or transmedium characteristic that we are beginning to see and record that these things can do.

00:46:17.000 And that is, I'm going to, if I can, digress for a second because that's super important, Joe.

00:46:23.000 We have transmedium vehicles, right?

00:46:25.000 We have things like seaplanes.

00:46:27.000 And it's a plane and it can float on water.

00:46:30.000 But let's face it, a seaplane is neither a really good plane or a really good boat because it's a compromise.

00:46:35.000 It's a design compromise between an object that you want to perform in the air and in the sea.

00:46:40.000 And that's why it's neither really good at both.

00:46:44.000 Same thing with, for example, a space shuttle.

00:46:46.000 It goes out into space and it can glide down, but it's not a very good airplane.

00:46:49.000 It comes down like a brick, you know, because there's design compromises and performance compromises.

00:46:54.000 But what we are seeing doesn't have any of that attributable compromise.

00:46:59.000 These objects aren't slowing down.

00:47:02.000 They're not changing...

00:47:03.000 Their performance capabilities, they can do the same thing that we're seeing in the air and possibly in space and even underwater.

00:47:11.000 So that is a fundamentally different type of technology than we are used to dealing with.

00:47:19.000 Is the assumption that they are doing something with space-time and gravity around them rather than using something like a jet propulsion engine that blasts fire out the back and it makes it go fast forward?

00:47:34.000 That they're doing something that alters the gravity around them.

00:47:38.000 And that's why they can go through everything.

00:47:41.000 Yeah, so we had some of the best scientists on the team, folks like Dr. Hal Puthoff and some other folks that I'm not allowed to say their names, Dr. Eric Davis and some others, that were doing the calculations, mathematical calculations on how this is possible.

00:47:56.000 And the consensus was by the scientists, not me, because I'm not a...

00:48:02.000 I'm not an astrophysicist.

00:48:06.000 They were saying that – so let me back up here.

00:48:10.000 Initially, the government for years was trying to identify the different exotic technologies that could explain the different performance characteristics.

00:48:19.000 And it was during the ATP years that the scientists had this consensus that if you had one type of technology, if you could do one thing, all these other observables now become possible.

00:48:30.000 Kind of think of like a unifying theory.

00:48:32.000 And so if you had the ability to create this bubble around you In a localized area that insulated you from the effects of Earth's gravity.

00:48:43.000 Now, what is gravity?

00:48:44.000 People think that, you know, when I drop my glasses, that's gravity.

00:48:47.000 That's not gravity.

00:48:48.000 That's an effect of gravity.

00:48:50.000 Gravity is the warping of space-time.

00:48:54.000 And that's important because people don't...

00:48:56.000 You hear the term thrown around a lot, but they don't realize that space and time are actually connected.

00:49:01.000 They are one and the same.

00:49:03.000 They're opposite sides, if you will, of the same coin.

00:49:06.000 And so you can't have one without the other.

00:49:09.000 And so you have this ability to create a bubble around you that insulates you from the warping of space-time, let's say in this case Earth's gravity or something like that, then the way you experience time inside that bubble Is perhaps fundamentally different than the way you might experience space-time outside that bubble because you're not subject to the effects of gravity,

00:49:31.000 which would explain potentially why things don't need wings and why they don't need propulsion systems like that, right?

00:49:38.000 So it's a completely different way of looking at how we understand physics and how we, as humans, Move about.

00:49:49.000 Everything we do is fundamentally force equals mass times acceleration.

00:49:52.000 F equals MA, right?

00:49:53.000 Mass times acceleration, and you get force.

00:49:56.000 This may be something a little bit different.

00:49:58.000 This is not using a set, again, conventional thrust, or if I put, you know, Newtonian, right?

00:50:05.000 If I push this way, I have an equal and opposite reaction that way, right?

00:50:08.000 That's how...

00:50:09.000 Are there any theories as to how it's accomplishing this?

00:50:11.000 There is.

00:50:12.000 Actually, Dr. Halputov, about...

00:50:15.000 Three years ago, gave a speech on this, a very interesting talk, lecture, about this technology.

00:50:22.000 And if you ever had the chance, you really should have him on because he's an incredible human being.

00:50:27.000 He's also the one who helped start the government's remote viewing program and a bunch of other stuff for the government.

00:50:32.000 He's been involved in a lot of our nation's probably most classified efforts.

00:50:37.000 But he was working with us on ATP as one of our scientists.

00:50:41.000 And he gave a lecture about three years ago to some other scientists about the specifics on how this is possible.

00:50:47.000 I am not a scientist, so I'm definitely not going to speak on behalf of Hal Pudoff because I'm sure I will muck it up.

00:50:52.000 But I do recall a time when he came into our SCIF and gave us about a three-hour lecture on this unifying theory.

00:50:58.000 And at that moment, it was very much for us the epiphany that a lot of us had been searching for.

00:51:04.000 He's like, look, at the end of the day, this is how it's possible.

00:51:07.000 And that was kind of this...

00:51:09.000 Wow.

00:51:10.000 So it's really not... 0.99

00:51:11.000 Can you give us a moron's view of how it's possible? 0.99

00:51:14.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:51:14.000 Explain it to someone like me? 0.99

00:51:15.000 Yeah, well, I'm in that category, Joe, so...

00:51:18.000 Good.

00:51:19.000 We're speaking the same language.

00:51:20.000 Yes, sir.

00:51:21.000 Yeah, single-syllable grunts, right?

00:51:23.000 Yeah, so...

00:51:25.000 You have an object like this cup on your table, and you want it to be insulated from the effects of Earth's gravity.

00:51:35.000 So you create this bubble artificially using a certain energetic source at a certain frequency, and it interacts with certain material, certain metamaterial.

00:51:46.000 And again, I've got to be careful exactly what I say, but Certain skin of the craft, this aluminum cup here, and all of a sudden you have this bubble around you where what you see on the outside is not necessarily what you see on the inside.

00:52:00.000 In fact, may I do a short drawing for you?

00:52:02.000 Okay, forgive me, I'm not an artist, so I'm gonna do this upside down for you and then I'm gonna kind of scoot this just a little here.

00:52:09.000 All right, let's do this.

00:52:13.000 So...

00:52:15.000 Unfortunately, I know your audience can't see this, but actually...

00:52:17.000 That's okay.

00:52:18.000 Some people can.

00:52:19.000 There's a video form of it.

00:52:21.000 I'm sure this will get on.

00:52:22.000 It'll be on YouTube as well.

00:52:24.000 It's probably good that they don't because I'm not an artist.

00:52:26.000 But let's say this is a two-dimensional representation of a three-dimensional space.

00:52:33.000 Okay.

00:52:34.000 And in essence...

00:52:39.000 So what you've done is essentially you've created a three-dimensional looking grid stacked.

00:52:45.000 It looked like stacked boxes on top of each other.

00:52:47.000 Yeah, right.

00:52:48.000 And so you have location A and location B. And let's say you go from Los Angeles to Baltimore.

00:52:54.000 Okay.

00:52:55.000 And it takes me five hours to fly at 500 miles an hour.

00:52:58.000 That's a function of distance over time.

00:53:01.000 And in essence, you can mark that linearly like this.

00:53:04.000 So I fly...

00:53:05.000 Takes me five hours, there I am.

00:53:07.000 Okay.

00:53:08.000 If you had the ability to compress space-time, and not a lot, just a little bit, and you were able to allow these points to be a little closer together, now in essence, What took you, let's say,

00:53:23.000 five hours and 500 miles an hour to do it, you can do it in one hour.

00:53:29.000 And you can do it in much less time.

00:53:32.000 But to the observer outside, because we're still in the same universe, we would see something like that.

00:53:37.000 We would see this incredible hopscotching ability to, if you will, take a shortcut through space-time.

00:53:44.000 And so what would appear to be instantaneous acceleration, hypersonic velocity, and other things, Now becomes a reality.

00:53:50.000 And so that is fundamentally what these scientists had discovered.

00:53:58.000 And so it seems like science fiction, but when you understand the mathematics and some of the theorem that they proposed, a lot of these other observables become possible.

00:54:08.000 So, these are essentially just theoretical explanations of how these things are moving.

00:54:16.000 Yeah, and again, I'm not a scientist.

00:54:19.000 I want to be very careful.

00:54:20.000 You know, I don't want to misrepresent anything.

00:54:22.000 There's a whole lot of other stuff that, if you can do that, all of a sudden now makes sense and may describe The observations that people are seeing and why they're kind of hard to see and they seem obscure.

00:54:37.000 And so I think from a governmental perspective that it was kind of a revelatory moment for the folks in our program.

00:54:47.000 So they realized one of the reasons why these things are weird looking is because they're literally creating...

00:54:53.000 Do you mind?

00:54:54.000 I'm sorry.

00:54:56.000 Thank you.

00:54:58.000 So...

00:55:00.000 The back thing, the other side.

00:55:03.000 Push that down.

00:55:04.000 There you go.

00:55:05.000 Bam.

00:55:08.000 Thank you very much.

00:55:09.000 No problem.

00:55:10.000 So how much of this is theoretical and how much of this is observed from recovered vehicles?

00:55:18.000 I am not allowed to talk about what the government may or may not have in its possession other than that I have – so I went through a very lengthy Pentagon review process.

00:55:27.000 Recently I wrote – I won't talk about it here but I wrote something and I had to go through Pentagon to have a review process and it took almost a year.

00:55:36.000 In this thing I wrote, I talk about up to the part I can talk about and they approved for me to talk about up to that point.

00:55:47.000 When it comes to what the government may or may not have in its possession, all I can simply say is that there is very compelling evidence to suggest that the U.S. government is in absolute possession of exotic material that is not made by humans.

00:56:02.000 Now, beyond that, I can't really expound upon.

00:56:05.000 I haven't been given permission to talk about it.

00:56:07.000 But what I can say is what I've already said for the record, which has been approved by the Pentagon.

00:56:13.000 Won't get in trouble by saying it.

00:56:15.000 Is that, that we are, there's very compelling data to suggest that we are in possession.

00:56:22.000 Why is the Pentagon teasing us?

00:56:24.000 Why do they tell you, why are they allowing you to say we are in possession of something that was not made by human beings, but not allowed to elaborate, not allowed to show these very compelling videos that you're talking about that you've seen?

00:56:38.000 I don't – well, two reasons.

00:56:41.000 I don't think they have a choice.

00:56:43.000 I think with now the introduction of cell phones and ring cameras, the cat's out of the bag.

00:56:49.000 It's the worst kept secret at this point.

00:56:52.000 Two, there is a faction – unlike before in the Cold War, I believe there is a faction of people inside the government that do want this conversation to occur.

00:57:00.000 But equally, there's still a faction of people that are very mad with me.

00:57:04.000 They do not want me having this conversation.

00:57:06.000 And mark my words, just by me being on your show – It is going to cause an absolute storm inside the Pentagon, and I am sure the other shoe is going to drop.

00:57:16.000 I promise you, you're going to hear all sorts of stuff.

00:57:19.000 People make stuff up about me trying to discredit this topic, because as many people are in the government that want this topic to be discussed now, there's still some people that do not want this conversation.

00:57:29.000 Could you steel man their position?

00:57:31.000 Say again?

00:57:32.000 Steel man their position.

00:57:34.000 Meaning, could you argue it from their perspective?

00:57:36.000 Absolutely.

00:57:36.000 What would be a good reason to keep this stuff quiet?

00:57:39.000 Sure.

00:57:40.000 And I want to preface here.

00:57:41.000 I'm not fear-mongering.

00:57:43.000 No, I don't think you are.

00:57:45.000 Look, if I was a military person, I would look at this from the perspective of there's three options.

00:57:53.000 They're good, they're neutral, or they're bad.

00:57:57.000 So let's go down this road for a second.

00:57:58.000 Let's say they're good, right?

00:58:01.000 Well, we've got nothing to worry about.

00:58:02.000 The problem is there's nothing to suggest that they truly are benevolent.

00:58:07.000 People say, well, you know, they're like – they don't want us to nuke ourselves.

00:58:10.000 Well, you know, I discussed it in what I wrote that – There's no data to suggest that.

00:58:16.000 They didn't stop us from dropping atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and vaporizing 500,000 living souls. 0.99

00:58:23.000 They didn't stop us when we started developing nuclear weapons from the atomic age.

00:58:27.000 They didn't stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

00:58:29.000 They didn't stop the testing in the Nevada range of atomic and nuclear weapons.

00:58:34.000 And now, how many countries have atomic weapons and nuclear weapons?

00:58:37.000 A lot, right?

00:58:38.000 They didn't stop...

00:58:40.000 Chernobyl.

00:58:40.000 They didn't stop Fukushima.

00:58:42.000 They didn't stop Three Mile Island.

00:58:43.000 So to say that they're here to help us I'm not sure there's data.

00:58:48.000 People say, well, you know, in Minot and in North Dakota and Montana, the UFOs came in and they interfered with our nuclear weapons and they brought the entire Echo flight offline.

00:59:00.000 Which, by the way, I have the government report on that if you want it.

00:59:04.000 But in Russia, a lot of people don't know, they turned them on, right?

00:59:08.000 So that's equally scary.

00:59:09.000 They're interfering with our nuclear capability, whether to attack or to defend ourselves.

00:59:14.000 So when you say they turned them on in Russia, this is a Russian report?

00:59:18.000 Yes.

00:59:18.000 So this is a—I don't know if you remember the hearing, congressional hearing that occurred last year where the— With David Grush?

00:59:27.000 Nope, the other one, with Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, Ronald Moultrie, and some people from the Navy— And I think it was Congressman Gallagher that asked the very specific question.

00:59:36.000 And he said, are you aware of UFOs interfering with our nuclear capabilities?

00:59:43.000 And the response was something like, no, not really familiar with it.

00:59:45.000 Never heard of it.

00:59:46.000 And then the question was, I think, we asked specifically at these locations.

00:59:50.000 And the government's response was, no, not familiar with it.

00:59:55.000 Here's the actual report from the Department of Defense.

00:59:57.000 This is the actual intelligence report that was released through FOIA. There's a gentleman out there who runs a site called The Black Vault.

01:00:05.000 His name is John Greenwald.

01:00:06.000 He's probably the World Authority on Freedom of Information Act.

01:00:09.000 And he has a wealth of data that is out available to the public that he has received from the government.

01:00:15.000 This is one of those documents.

01:00:17.000 This is the document that our own government has no idea apparently exists.

01:00:22.000 I like how they write it in all caps.

01:00:24.000 Yeah.

01:00:24.000 Yeah, that's the old reporting.

01:00:26.000 So obviously there's some people that don't want this to be released, and obviously there's some people that think that the general public has a right to know.

01:00:35.000 I believe so.

01:00:36.000 That's been my observations and my experience.

01:00:40.000 Well, that makes sense.

01:00:41.000 You know, I mean, like when everybody says the CIA does this, like, okay, who?

01:00:45.000 Who in the CIA? I didn't finish, though, the other parts, right?

01:00:47.000 So if they're not here for – if they're not friendly, that leaves them neutral like us.

01:00:51.000 Right.

01:00:52.000 Or benevolent.

01:00:53.000 Benevolent.

01:00:53.000 Now, from a military perspective, and I just want to caveat, I don't agree with this, but I can respect the understanding.

01:00:59.000 You, sir, are a general, and I say – We cannot prove that they're not here to do something bad.

01:01:07.000 But what we do know is that they can interfere.

01:01:09.000 They're very interested in our military capabilities, and they have interfered with our nuclear capabilities, right?

01:01:16.000 From a military perspective, that looks an awful lot like something we call IPB, Initial Preparations of the Battle Space, or perhaps even ISR, Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance.

01:01:27.000 Whenever we're going to go into a foreign country and invade, we do long-range surveillance.

01:01:32.000 We want to know how the enemy operates, how they react.

01:01:35.000 So even if there's a 2% chance, 5% chance that these things are here to do something Malevolent, right?

01:01:45.000 Then we probably should not tip our hands to the fact that we are aware of it publicly because what happens the moment that the bad guys in a foreign country find our surveillance team over the border?

01:01:57.000 We've got 12 hours we've got to invade because the element of surprise is now over. 0.91

01:02:01.000 So some may feel in the government the mere fact of acknowledging this, if there is some sort of malintent, may push up artificially a clock That exists somewhere for these things to say, uh-oh, okay, the foolish humans are now – the cat's out of the bag. 0.81

01:02:18.000 They know we're here. 0.91

01:02:20.000 We need to go in now for whatever reason they may have.

01:02:23.000 So that is the military mindset potentially of some of these individuals who want to keep this secret.

01:02:28.000 So they're worried about an actual invasion.

01:02:30.000 Well, but they have to be.

01:02:31.000 That is the role of our national security apparatus, right?

01:02:35.000 Even if there's a 1% chance, they have to consider that in their planning and in the decision-making matrix.

01:02:41.000 So, again, going back to what I said, I respect that.

01:02:44.000 I don't agree with it, but I can respect that.

01:02:47.000 If that is the reason why, then I would say, okay, look, in your heart, you really do have the best interests of the American people.

01:02:52.000 You are a patriot.

01:02:54.000 I can accept that.

01:02:55.000 Again, I don't think it's your decision to make.

01:02:57.000 I think it needs to go to Congress.

01:02:58.000 I think it needs to go to the President.

01:02:59.000 Let the American people decide.

01:03:00.000 I think America can handle the truth.

01:03:03.000 I think America deserves the truth.

01:03:05.000 And let the American people decide if it's in their best interest to know more about this.

01:03:09.000 I agree with you.

01:03:10.000 But I also can see it from their perspective.

01:03:12.000 Like, they're probably insanely busy already.

01:03:15.000 And the last thing they want to do is get involved in this thing where now they have a PR campaign when they're trying to let people...

01:03:21.000 Know about this thing and not cause mass panic.

01:03:24.000 That's right.

01:03:25.000 That's right.

01:03:25.000 But you know what, though?

01:03:26.000 I'm also very optimistic, Joe, because you and I are having this conversation and people aren't making a run on Wall Street.

01:03:33.000 People are still paying their mortgages and going to PTA meetings and And after the 2017 New York Times report, which was probably one of the biggest moments in UFO disclosure, because it was in the New York Times.

01:03:46.000 And then you see something like that in the New York, especially in the New York Times in 2017. People really respected it.

01:03:50.000 It's like, this is a real story.

01:03:53.000 Well, and this is apolitical.

01:03:55.000 I mean, how many topics can you go to Congress and have that's not polarizing, right?

01:04:00.000 This is one of the only ones where you can literally have Congressman Burchette and Congresswoman AOC side by side agreeing that this is important.

01:04:11.000 It's a very rare opportunity.

01:04:13.000 And so, you know, my concern, I'm doing this because I believe it's the right thing to do.

01:04:19.000 And my concern is that We're at a point now where I've said before, you know, secrets aren't like a fine wine where the longer you keep a cork on it, the better it gets.

01:04:27.000 I think secrets are perishable.

01:04:29.000 I think they have a shelf life.

01:04:30.000 I think they're like vegetables in your refrigerator.

01:04:33.000 And there comes a point where if you leave them there too long, they start to rot and they start to stink.

01:04:37.000 And it becomes a big mess to clean up, right?

01:04:39.000 And so that's my perspective.

01:04:41.000 And what I'm trying to do is...

01:04:43.000 Give the government an ability to work its way out of a corner that it's put itself into for the last several decades and with no seeming way out, right?

01:04:52.000 Right.

01:04:52.000 They look around like, well, how do we get ourselves out of this trip back?

01:04:55.000 Is there an issue of legality, like of spending?

01:04:59.000 A hundred percent.

01:05:00.000 A hundred percent.

01:05:01.000 So there's people that would be liable for not being straightforward with Congress.

01:05:06.000 And I know people want their pound of flesh.

01:05:08.000 I know there's people out there, we've been lied to for decades.

01:05:11.000 And then they make it a political issue and go after someone.

01:05:14.000 And I think that's the wrong approach.

01:05:16.000 I think there was a time where we needed to keep this secret.

01:05:19.000 And I think what you do is you...

01:05:21.000 You give those guys awards.

01:05:22.000 Give those guys and gals awards who did it.

01:05:24.000 Don't make them enemies.

01:05:26.000 Make them friends and say, okay, look, but those were different times.

01:05:29.000 Now is the time to come clean.

01:05:31.000 Talk to the members of Congress.

01:05:33.000 Forgive all the past sins.

01:05:35.000 Make them immune to prosecution.

01:05:37.000 100%.

01:05:38.000 And let's just get clear with all this and understand that it was all in good faith that you did it in the first place.

01:05:43.000 100%.

01:05:44.000 All in the interest of the United States security.

01:05:46.000 You talk about legal issues.

01:05:48.000 The problem is there are, though, real legal issues.

01:05:51.000 So let's say you have, again, these cups forgive my analogies.

01:05:54.000 You have two aerospace companies, Company A, Company B. And let's say I am in the Department of Defense back in the 50s, 60s, and I come across this interesting technology.

01:06:04.000 I have no idea what the hell it is.

01:06:05.000 It just came out of the sky.

01:06:07.000 And I go to Company A and I said...

01:06:10.000 Tell me what you can figure out about that, right?

01:06:12.000 10 years later, Company A becomes a multi-billion dollar aerospace company.

01:06:16.000 Company B goes bankrupt, 200 people lose their jobs, and now people who have stock investors in that company lose their money, right?

01:06:25.000 Unfair advantage.

01:06:26.000 Keep in mind, you're supposed to have fair competition in the US government.

01:06:29.000 So if you give an unfair advantage to Company A, To be, you're talking a serious liability.

01:06:34.000 There's SEC violations there.

01:06:36.000 There's all sorts of concerns one has to pay attention to because someone somewhere gave an unfair advantage to one company over another.

01:06:43.000 So there are legal liabilities that we have to recognize.

01:06:47.000 It's not just clear-cut, okay, forgive and forget.

01:06:52.000 There's going to have to be some additional protection and understanding for if that occurred, we need to figure out how we deal with that as well.

01:07:01.000 So that would be an impediment to release.

01:07:04.000 That makes a lot of sense.

01:07:06.000 Yeah.

01:07:06.000 These are big companies, right, with deep pockets and a lot of lawyers.

01:07:10.000 Well, I mean, also, this is a discussion that we've had on here before.

01:07:13.000 If you did find something, who would you bring it to? 1.00

01:07:16.000 You'd bring it to the people that build your fucking jets. 0.99

01:07:18.000 Like, hey, guys, what the hell is this? 1.00

01:07:21.000 Like, you know, you make some sort of a top secret agreement.

01:07:24.000 You bring it to them in some sort of undisclosed facility.

01:07:28.000 Best and brightest.

01:07:29.000 Secured.

01:07:29.000 Best and brightest.

01:07:30.000 Bring the guys in and go, what the fuck is this thing? 0.99

01:07:33.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:07:34.000 You kind of have to.

01:07:35.000 Otherwise, what else would you do?

01:07:37.000 I mean, how else do you find out how these things work?

01:07:40.000 And if you were going to do it in a secretive manner, you would have to bring it to defense contractors, because those are the only people that are capable of making things.

01:07:48.000 They make your jets. 0.95

01:07:50.000 They make the, you know, every stealth bomber, whatever the fuck it is. 1.00

01:07:55.000 They make all that shit. 1.00

01:07:56.000 Going back to, you know, a colleague of mine made the comparison. 1.00

01:07:59.000 He said, look, Lou, imagine being during the days of Da Vinci and all of a sudden bringing Da Vinci a garage door opener.

01:08:09.000 You have no idea what it's used for.

01:08:11.000 You've never seen plastic before.

01:08:12.000 You don't even understand electromagnetic radiation and infrared.

01:08:17.000 Where do you start on the analysis and exploitation of a technology that the physics hasn't even been discovered yet, right?

01:08:25.000 I mean, garage door openers seem like magic.

01:08:28.000 Right.

01:08:28.000 It really does.

01:08:29.000 I press a button and a door opens like magic.

01:08:31.000 Wait, where's the horse?

01:08:32.000 Where's the strings?

01:08:33.000 What's that right?

01:08:34.000 Yeah.

01:08:34.000 It's kind of bananas.

01:08:35.000 You press a button on your car and all of a sudden your door opens.

01:08:38.000 And you drive in and you press another button and it closes.

01:08:41.000 And it's all done through the air.

01:08:42.000 Right.

01:08:42.000 Which is bananas.

01:08:44.000 Magic.

01:08:45.000 But we're just accustomed to it.

01:08:46.000 That's right.

01:08:47.000 Yeah.

01:08:47.000 So this kind of technology, I'm sure you're aware of the Bob Lazar story.

01:08:54.000 I'm aware.

01:08:54.000 I don't know Bob.

01:08:55.000 I've never met him.

01:08:56.000 You never got into that?

01:08:57.000 I did not.

01:08:58.000 How could you not with your line of work?

01:09:00.000 Because, you know, I always wanted to be insulated from prejudicing the jury.

01:09:05.000 And I know it sounds kind of strange, but I didn't ever...

01:09:07.000 It makes sense.

01:09:08.000 You know, it's kind of something I impose on myself because I didn't want to have any preconceived notions of going in.

01:09:13.000 Most people kind of, I suspect, would be tempted to say, well, I'm going to learn everything I can about, you know, UFO lore.

01:09:18.000 I wanted the opposite.

01:09:20.000 You're a better man than me. 1.00

01:09:22.000 I'll be fucking chasing that shit down. 1.00

01:09:25.000 You know, I think I just wanted to be very, very careful to preserve the investigative integrity, right? 1.00

01:09:35.000 And look, we're all humans.

01:09:36.000 We're all biased.

01:09:38.000 There's no way around it.

01:09:39.000 We all have some degree of bias.

01:09:40.000 Let's be honest and truthful here.

01:09:42.000 It doesn't matter what type of bias it is.

01:09:43.000 We all have some sort of bias somewhere, whether it's food or it's the people you like to date or whatever.

01:09:49.000 I wanted to avoid that as much as possible.

01:09:51.000 And so I always kept it very, very focused on the here and now and, you know, what can we see today?

01:10:00.000 Right.

01:10:01.000 You're aware of the story though, right?

01:10:02.000 The basic...

01:10:04.000 Tangentially.

01:10:05.000 That he worked at a particular facility and at that facility he was exposed to some sort of UAP technology.

01:10:11.000 That thing.

01:10:12.000 Right.

01:10:12.000 That thing.

01:10:13.000 That thing right there, the sport model.

01:10:15.000 And that he was brought in as a propulsions expert.

01:10:20.000 They didn't know how it exactly worked, but they sort of just said, tell me what this is.

01:10:26.000 Roger.

01:10:27.000 And then along the way, he realized, oh, this isn't even ours.

01:10:30.000 Yeah, I'm aware of, again, the overarching story.

01:10:34.000 I don't know any of the details, and I've never met him personally.

01:10:38.000 He's a very, very interesting guy.

01:10:40.000 I had dinner with him with my friend Andrew Schultz and Jeremy Corbell.

01:10:44.000 We went to dinner and, you know, informally talked and had a fascinating conversation.

01:10:50.000 Jeremy's a great guy.

01:10:51.000 He's a great guy.

01:10:51.000 Yeah, he's really, you know, he's done a lot.

01:10:53.000 He said to say hi.

01:10:55.000 He's pumped that we're talking.

01:10:57.000 Yeah, he's done a lot.

01:10:58.000 He's a UFO nut.

01:10:59.000 And he got me really way back in with his documentary of Bob Lazar, Flying Saucers, whatever the actual title of it is.

01:11:08.000 But that documentary is fantastic.

01:11:10.000 And it's essentially going over Bob Lazar's story from the 1980s to today.

01:11:15.000 Which he's told the exact same story, which is nuts that you have one giant lie your whole life.

01:11:22.000 Like, come on.

01:11:23.000 There's a lot of weirdness to the story, obviously.

01:11:26.000 Like there is with everything.

01:11:27.000 There's a lot of people that want to discredit his background and all sorts of other things.

01:11:32.000 But the reality of what he's saying is essentially what we're seeing in these crafts, which is very strange.

01:11:38.000 So he described how these things worked and how they moved and how they would turn sideways and sort of like project this whatever this Reactor that they have inside of them and he talked about this element element 115 They have a stable version of it that was essentially theoretical at the time in 1980 no one really knew whether or not that thing actually even exists 89 or whatever it was and that they would douse this thing project radiation upon it and it would create this

01:12:08.000 Warp this gravity warp this this thing that allowed this This craft to move in ways that defied our understanding.

01:12:19.000 That's a hell of a lucky guess.

01:12:21.000 Hell of a lucky guess.

01:12:22.000 Hell of a lucky guess in 1989. Wow.

01:12:24.000 And he drew it, he drew his diagrams of what this thing looked like and, you know, how it worked.

01:12:29.000 And it essentially looked exactly like that little model that's on the desk there and that he felt like the whole...

01:12:36.000 It didn't make any sense.

01:12:37.000 He said the whole thing, it didn't have any seams, which now we understand 3D printing, right?

01:12:41.000 So now we know that we can actually...

01:12:43.000 But only now, not back then, right?

01:12:45.000 Of course.

01:12:46.000 Everything had rivets.

01:12:47.000 Exactly.

01:12:47.000 The skin of a craft was the skin of an aircraft.

01:12:49.000 Exactly.

01:12:49.000 It had rivets and had nuts and bolts.

01:12:51.000 Exactly. 0.99

01:12:52.000 You know, but now, you know, obviously now we have carbon fiber, we have a bunch of different ways of constructing things, but back then, he didn't know what the fuck that thing was. 0.87

01:13:01.000 He said it looked like it had all been melted, like, into place, like, that it had been, like, almost like smooth, like wax, like melted wax, and that it had no instrumentation inside of it, and it was designed for very small things, like something that was, like, three feet tall. 0.67

01:13:15.000 And that all these things seemed to operate through the being itself, had some sort of connection to the craft, some sort of strange way of interfacing with the craft that didn't have anything to do with pulling levers and moving things.

01:13:30.000 Sure.

01:13:30.000 But Joe, is that really that much of a stretch?

01:13:33.000 Let's look at this.

01:13:33.000 You know, we've done experiments where we've had pilots be able to control aircraft thousands of miles away.

01:13:41.000 With a helmet that interprets thought.

01:13:43.000 Right.

01:13:44.000 Right?

01:13:44.000 So it's, you know, again...

01:13:46.000 How does the helmet...

01:13:47.000 Is it similar to like a Neuralink setup?

01:13:49.000 Have you seen the new video of the second Neuralink patient?

01:13:52.000 I have not.

01:13:53.000 This video of him playing Counter-Strike.

01:13:55.000 Is it Counter-Strike or is it...

01:13:57.000 Is that it?

01:13:58.000 So Counter-Strike, which is a very popular online 3D game, and this guy who does not have use of his body has this Neuralink implant.

01:14:07.000 He's the second Neuralink patient.

01:14:09.000 And apparently with each iteration it gets more and more sophisticated and better.

01:14:13.000 So this is a, from this person's point of view, he's playing this video game entirely with his mind.

01:14:21.000 He's playing better than I can with my hands.

01:14:23.000 Well, better than anybody can because the first guy who, the first Neuralink patient we had him on and he said essentially it's like having an aimbot because you don't miss.

01:14:32.000 You look at the thing you're trying to shoot at and instantaneously your crosshairs go there.

01:14:37.000 Wow.

01:14:37.000 Yeah, so all this stuff is taking place entirely.

01:14:42.000 This is all him doing this entirely with his mind.

01:14:45.000 So if we can do that now, is it really that far of a stretch to think that someone who's a little more advanced than us, our friends from out of town, That's the way to do it.

01:14:57.000 That's more efficient, right?

01:15:17.000 Is beginning to turn to that.

01:15:18.000 And we're using AI and all these other augmentation to enhance performance.

01:15:23.000 And so I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility.

01:15:29.000 No, certainly not.

01:15:30.000 I mean, just go from garage door openers to, you know, 500, 600 years ago to today.

01:15:36.000 And then cell phones, the ability to send video across the world instantaneously.

01:15:40.000 All the sophisticated stuff that we just completely take for granted because it's become a normal part of our everyday life.

01:15:46.000 I used to give a briefing to some folks.

01:15:51.000 I'm so glad you mentioned this because this goes back to the whole stigma and taboo issue.

01:15:56.000 I used to have a slideshow, and I still have it somewhere, and I would discuss the Latin word prefix of para, P-A-R-A. And it means above or beside.

01:16:07.000 And so what I would do is show up, I would say the word parachute, and I'd ask people, what do you think of when you hear the word parachute?

01:16:13.000 And people would describe, obviously, something that deploys over your head and hopefully you hit the ground with a thump and not a thud, right?

01:16:19.000 But something that's normal, we use every day.

01:16:22.000 And then I say, what about the word paramedic?

01:16:24.000 And then people would look at it and say, well, I think of a first responder.

01:16:27.000 Someone goes, you know, some sort of medical lifesaver that's going to be there for your benefit.

01:16:32.000 And then I say the word...

01:16:34.000 When I say the word paranormal, what do you think?

01:16:37.000 And people will stop for a second.

01:16:38.000 Maybe they kind of give you a little sly smile and say, what do you mean?

01:16:41.000 I say, what do you mean?

01:16:42.000 I mean that, paranormal.

01:16:43.000 The only reason why you're reacting the way you are, because you've been conditioned that the word paranormal...

01:16:48.000 Cookie stuff.

01:16:49.000 Cookie stuff.

01:16:50.000 When in reality, in science, by definition, everything is paranormal until it becomes normal.

01:16:56.000 The cell phone that I use every day 50 years ago, absolutely paranormal.

01:17:00.000 And so I would go through this exercise of things that were once considered paranormal.

01:17:04.000 For example, when the Inca first saw the Spaniards, the conquistadores, coming from the reconquering, They saw them on the shores of the beach and they saw these humans in armor riding on a horse.

01:17:16.000 And they assumed, because they'd never seen a horse before, they assumed it was a single entity, it was a single monster.

01:17:22.000 And that for them was paranormal.

01:17:24.000 They didn't understand it was actually a human riding on a horse with, you know, metal skin.

01:17:27.000 Same thing with acupuncture.

01:17:29.000 I remember a time when I was growing up as a kid, people thought Eastern medicine acupuncture was nonsense.

01:17:34.000 Well, now at the Veterans Administration, the VA for some of my guys in combat, they actually prescribe acupuncture as therapy.

01:17:40.000 It's not paranormal, right?

01:17:42.000 And so there's all these examples.

01:17:44.000 In history where we think something is kooky and weird when in reality it's not.

01:17:49.000 It's just we don't understand it yet and we have done such a good job of stigmatizing this conversation that the moment you even say the word paranormal or you say the word UFO or anything like that, people are conditioned without even thinking about it.

01:18:04.000 It's reflexive.

01:18:05.000 To react a certain way.

01:18:07.000 And we have to first deprogram ourselves first a little bit before we can start moving forward.

01:18:13.000 Okay, how do we destigmatize this conversation?

01:18:16.000 Well, first of all, what's kooky?

01:18:19.000 You know, what do you think is kooky about something that's in our airspace that's performing in ways that we can't replicate?

01:18:26.000 You know, that people say, well, you know, wait a minute, we spend millions if not billions of dollars Putting a probe on Mars to try to find microbial life.

01:18:37.000 And by the way, it looks like that may happen.

01:18:39.000 It looks like there actually may be some evidence to suggest that.

01:18:42.000 We spend lots of money trying to find techno signatures of intelligent life, radio signatures, in our own Milky Way, right?

01:18:50.000 Well, is it possible within the four and a half billion years our planet's been here that maybe intelligent life maybe found us first?

01:18:57.000 Is it possible?

01:18:59.000 Could be.

01:19:00.000 You know, we have to stop putting these limitations.

01:19:03.000 Joe, when I was in the medical program, when I was learning to be microbiology and immunology in college, we learned from our professor that Homo sapiens sapiens as a modern species has been around roughly between 100,000 to 200,000 years.

01:19:19.000 Now, I'm not an expert, but that's what they say.

01:19:22.000 It was only the Greeks 2,000 years ago that introduced the idea that there's only two types of life forms on this planet.

01:19:28.000 And you are either A, a plant, or B, you're an animal.

01:19:32.000 And it wasn't the last 300 years.

01:19:35.000 So if you look at a 24-hour clock, roughly the last five minutes in the 24 hours, Towards midnight, we discovered another form of life that is neither plant nor animal that's been here with us on this planet, and that is the world of fungus.

01:19:49.000 During the Renaissance and the days of Newton, we discovered that there was this other life form we've been sharing all along.

01:19:55.000 And so we pat ourselves on the shoulder, and it wasn't the last 120 years—think about it—the last 10 seconds of our existence on this planet, so to speak, in a 24-hour clock as a modern species.

01:20:07.000 We actually discovered the true dominant life form on this planet.

01:20:11.000 And in fact, if you take all the biomass of every plant and the biomass of every animal and the biomass of every fungus and add it all together, it still will not equal the biomass of this hidden kingdom of life that's actually the dominant life form on this planet.

01:20:25.000 And that wasn't until we were able to curve glass and look through a little steel tube and famously shout, little beasties, little beasties!

01:20:32.000 Did we discover the world of microorganisms?

01:20:34.000 That yes, live inside of you.

01:20:36.000 And yes, live on the skin of the ISS space station.

01:20:39.000 Yes, live miles underneath the Arctic ice, right?

01:20:42.000 That is the true dominant life form on this planet, and it always has been.

01:20:45.000 And it wasn't until the last 120 years we discovered that.

01:20:49.000 So is it possible that there is something else that is just as normal to this world?

01:20:56.000 Is it possible?

01:20:57.000 Well, the answer is a resounding yes, of course it's possible, because we're always discovering new ways life can exist.

01:21:05.000 When I was growing up as a kid, I was told, absolutely, as a matter of fact, all life form is derived from photosynthesis, ultimately, when you go all the way down.

01:21:13.000 It turns out that's not true.

01:21:15.000 It wasn't until we discovered in the deepest depths of our oceans where these things called black smokers, we discovered there are creatures that thrive with no light and they thrive off of something called chemosynthesis, a completely different way to metabolize energy to sustain life, 1.00

01:21:32.000 right?

01:21:32.000 So every time we put Mother Nature in a little box, she always finds a way to wiggle her way out.

01:21:36.000 And I think that's important when having this conversation because If there's one thing we know as human beings, we're usually wrong at first.

01:21:46.000 Well, we exist, and we do send things to other planets.

01:21:51.000 We do send things into space.

01:21:53.000 It only makes sense that something far more intelligent than us that would be doing that.

01:21:58.000 And if they did, they'd probably watch an emerging civilization, which is essentially what we are, right?

01:22:03.000 And like you said, 200,000 years, which is nothing.

01:22:08.000 The existence of homo sapiens.

01:22:10.000 They've gone from things that use stones and flint map to things that can fly things through the air.

01:22:17.000 I mean, if you look at Orville Wright and Wilbur Wright when they flew the first airplane, you go from that to the Apollo 11 launch.

01:22:25.000 That's only like, what, 50 years?

01:22:28.000 That's right.

01:22:28.000 Something crazy like that?

01:22:29.000 That's right.

01:22:30.000 That's nuts.

01:22:31.000 Right?

01:22:32.000 And you just take that and everything moves exponentially.

01:22:35.000 You take that and you imagine a civilization that's been around 10,000 years longer than us, 100,000 years longer, a million years longer than us.

01:22:42.000 Something that doesn't exist in- How about 100 years?

01:22:45.000 We have evolved more in the last 150 years than we have in the last 150,000 years.

01:22:50.000 Sure, yeah.

01:22:54.000 For me, I find when people say, well, space is so huge and, you know, is it possible that things are coming from outer space?

01:23:02.000 My response has always been the same.

01:23:04.000 Look, I don't know where they're from.

01:23:05.000 I just know that they're here.

01:23:07.000 And could they be from outer space?

01:23:08.000 Sure.

01:23:08.000 They can be from inner space or even the space in between.

01:23:12.000 And I say that because the universe is far more complex than we give it credit for.

01:23:17.000 Every time, you know, there was a time we had Newtonian physics, we thought there was a solution, then all of a sudden Einstein comes along and we realize that, wait, space and time are actually connected, and then everything's relative, and all of a sudden now you have quantum mechanics, which is, you know, this spooky action at a distance, right, where the whole universe is behaving in a way that it shouldn't,

01:23:33.000 and yet that looks like the real way the universe works.

01:23:37.000 I often tell people, as humans, we have only five fundamental senses that we can base our reality upon.

01:23:46.000 And if you can't touch it, taste it, hear it, smell it, etc., we can't interact with it.

01:23:50.000 And so where I live in Wyoming, we have these beautiful night skies, kind of like you have here in your studio here.

01:23:57.000 300 days of unoccluded night skies.

01:23:59.000 And as beautiful as those night skies are, if you were to look at that same portion of the night sky through a radio telescope, We're good to go.

01:24:27.000 Interact with a very small sliver of the reality that we can perceive because we're humans.

01:24:31.000 But most of reality is actually beyond that.

01:24:34.000 And then, of course, you have scalability issues.

01:24:37.000 The universe is immensely huge.

01:24:41.000 And what scientists are now saying, if you look in any direction, you can see roughly within the visible, let me emphasize, visible horizon of our universe is about 13.9 billion light years, plus or minus.

01:24:53.000 So that means in any direction I can see 13.9 billion light years with the right equipment.

01:24:58.000 What's a light year?

01:24:58.000 Well, it's as fast as light can travel in a year.

01:25:01.000 Well, light travels pretty fast.

01:25:03.000 In fact, it travels at 186,000 miles per second.

01:25:06.000 So seven and a half times around our planet in one second.

01:25:10.000 So imagine how far you can go in a year.

01:25:12.000 Now, multiply that by 13.9 billion.

01:25:15.000 And that, by scientists' estimation, so that if the universe end-to-end of our visible, we're stuck in the middle, is roughly 27 billion light years.

01:25:23.000 Scientists are now saying that's only possibly only 10% of the known universe because the universe is so big and so vast and so far, light will never have time to reach Earth.

01:25:33.000 So that's at a minimum 100 billion light years, right?

01:25:37.000 And so we are this little speck in the middle.

01:25:40.000 And as crazy as that is to even try to conceive, if you compare one atom inside the hill, one hydrogen atom, Avogadro's number, right?

01:25:50.000 One times 10 to the negative umpteen all the way down.

01:25:54.000 It is roughly the same level of scale As we are to the universe, meaning that atom is the size of a human as we are the size of the universe, as we are a human to the size of the universe.

01:26:06.000 So there is this, and we as humans can only interact, plus or minus, with one order of magnitude up or down.

01:26:13.000 Otherwise, the universe is simply too big or too small.

01:26:16.000 Meaning most of the universe and reality lies in those scales.

01:26:21.000 We live in this little tiny, tiny sliver.

01:26:24.000 And so...

01:26:25.000 You hurt my head.

01:26:28.000 Well, yeah.

01:26:29.000 We live in a tiny sliver.

01:26:30.000 And the idea that we're alone I think is preposterous.

01:26:33.000 I really do.

01:26:34.000 And I know people – they constantly chime in with this.

01:26:38.000 Where's the evidence?

01:26:40.000 Elon has famously said if the aliens are real, they're very subtle.

01:26:44.000 I don't know why he says that, though.

01:26:46.000 I think he probably says that because he doesn't want to sound like a kook while he's working with NASA and SpaceX, you know?

01:26:52.000 I'd probably say some stuff like that, too.

01:26:55.000 Well, let me ask you this.

01:26:56.000 As human beings, right, how many times do we fly over the Serengeti in a helicopter, right, and Let's say you want to monitor the health of a particular, you know, a herd of elephants, right?

01:27:08.000 And so what happens?

01:27:09.000 A wildebeest, we fly over, we pick one, we shoot it with a tranquilizer, it falls asleep, we go down, we do some tests, pull its blood.

01:27:16.000 Now think about it from the perspective of the wildebeest, right?

01:27:18.000 It wakes up, kind of meanders over to the watering hole and says, Bill, you're not going to believe this man, but...

01:27:23.000 Something out of the sky came down and all of a sudden they were touching me and, you know, I woke up and my butt hurt, right?

01:27:29.000 What the hell was that?

01:27:31.000 To this day, even in China, when we go into a zoo, right, and we have the panda bear exhibits, what do we do?

01:27:38.000 So we don't disrupt the pandas.

01:27:40.000 We wear panda suits.

01:27:42.000 Now, it sounds silly, but you can actually get online and see zookeepers wearing panda suits because they don't want to...

01:27:47.000 They want to interfere as least as possible with the natural...

01:27:52.000 Flora and fauna, they're inside the exhibit, right?

01:27:55.000 Plants and animals.

01:27:56.000 Was it reasonable to theorize that there's aliens amongst us?

01:28:02.000 Well, two things.

01:28:05.000 I don't want to be evasive, but I also want to be very specific.

01:28:07.000 When we say aliens, are we saying something from another planet, or are we simply saying non-human?

01:28:14.000 Non-human intelligence that looks like us, that moves around with us.

01:28:18.000 So, is it possible?

01:28:20.000 Well, we're doing it already with the panda bear.

01:28:22.000 So, you know, it's not that we do it all the time.

01:28:24.000 Seems like a strategy that'd be very simple.

01:28:26.000 Sure.

01:28:27.000 And especially if you have the technology.

01:28:29.000 Now, as far as...

01:28:30.000 The panda bear!

01:28:30.000 Yeah, there you go, right?

01:28:32.000 Carrying little baby pandas.

01:28:33.000 Exactly, right? 0.99

01:28:34.000 Boy, those are shitty panda bear outfits, too. 1.00

01:28:38.000 They're fucking terrible looking. 1.00

01:28:40.000 They're pretty terrifying, aren't they, actually? 1.00

01:28:42.000 Put that in front of my dog, he's going to bark. 1.00

01:28:44.000 If a dude in a dog costume, he'll be like, uh-uh, that ain't a fucking dog. 0.99

01:28:48.000 That's a wild panda bear. 0.99

01:28:49.000 No, that dude's not a panda bear.

01:28:51.000 That's crazy. 0.99

01:28:52.000 He's a panda terrorist. 1.00

01:28:53.000 That looks like a fucking alien. 1.00

01:28:55.000 If it was really dark out, and that guy grabbed you and zapped you with a tranquilizer, you'd have an alien story. 0.99

01:29:01.000 But, yeah, my point is that we always, you know, use camouflage for obvious reasons.

01:29:05.000 We do it in the military, right?

01:29:07.000 Camouflage, camouflage uniform, stealth aircraft, you know, for camouflage.

01:29:11.000 Sure, you do it when you go hunting.

01:29:12.000 Absolutely, I do.

01:29:13.000 Absolutely.

01:29:14.000 So it's not a stretch of the imagination to suggest anything coming here that doesn't want to provoke us probably wants to blend in.

01:29:21.000 Of course.

01:29:22.000 Do I have any type of empirical evidence to suggest that they are living among us?

01:29:26.000 I don't.

01:29:27.000 What I can say definitively that whatever it is, it's here.

01:29:29.000 And by the way, you already have very senior people in our government that have said it's here, whatever it is.

01:29:35.000 But these things could also be from under the water.

01:29:37.000 These things could be something that is as natural to Earth as the little beasties were, right, when we first discovered them.

01:29:43.000 Maybe they've been here all along.

01:29:45.000 Right.

01:29:46.000 The ocean is largely undiscovered.

01:29:48.000 One of the things that people need to understand is that most of the exploration of the ocean is really essentially around the outside edges.

01:29:55.000 It's around the shores.

01:29:56.000 Less than 10%.

01:29:57.000 Which is nuts.

01:29:58.000 A buddy of mine.

01:29:59.000 90% of the ocean.

01:30:00.000 That's right.

01:30:01.000 We know more about the moon than the bottom of our own ocean.

01:30:04.000 That's so crazy.

01:30:05.000 Yeah, that's fact.

01:30:07.000 And these underwater crafts, like this enormous one that apparently was near this oil rig, how many of them have been, has there been more than one of those videos?

01:30:18.000 So let me tell you what I can say from open source.

01:30:20.000 Okay, yeah.

01:30:23.000 And then I'll tell you about a conversation I had without attribution because I don't want to get in trouble.

01:30:30.000 A lot of people are familiar with the Air Force's program called the Fast Walker Program, which is a program that was started by the Air Force, among other things, was to detect UFOs.

01:30:41.000 That's a fact.

01:30:42.000 Actually, that was part of their mission, to detect a lot of things, adversarial technology, but UFOs was one of them.

01:30:49.000 It was called the Fast Walker Program.

01:30:51.000 There was some information that was released publicly about a similar program the Navy has.

01:30:58.000 I can't talk about it because I don't have approval to talk about it.

01:31:01.000 But obviously they're interested, because they have equities underwater, they're interested in if there's anything underwater that can perform beyond anything we have.

01:31:11.000 And I remember speaking to one individual who pulled me aside very privately and he said, We were tracking this thing, doing, and I won't say the exact speed, but hundreds and hundreds of knots underwater.

01:31:24.000 And it was bigger than our own submarine.

01:31:26.000 You know how big our submarines are, right?

01:31:28.000 They're huge.

01:31:28.000 And I asked him, naively, I just kind of came out, what do you do when you encounter that?

01:31:34.000 And he just said, very honestly, he said, we go around.

01:31:37.000 Just like that, we go around.

01:31:39.000 Have there been interactions with these things?

01:31:42.000 I would not at liberty to discuss any details about that.

01:31:45.000 That's not for me to discuss.

01:31:47.000 You know, I... You and I gotta get drunk.

01:31:51.000 I'm a lightweight, you know?

01:31:52.000 I gotta get you drunk.

01:31:56.000 Let's go have some whiskey. 1.00

01:31:57.000 Find out what the fuck is up. 0.99

01:32:00.000 So this thing is bigger than the Sub, and they followed it for hundreds of miles. 0.99

01:32:06.000 Let me give you another great, great event that occurred.

01:32:10.000 And I'll talk about this because it's not classified.

01:32:13.000 The portions that might be, I don't know about, so it should be fine.

01:32:17.000 There's an individual who I'm aware of who was a helo pilot, a helicopter pilot back in the late 90s in the Caribbean.

01:32:24.000 And they were doing missile recovery.

01:32:25.000 So what happened is that the Navy would test fire missiles and then they kind of run out of fuel.

01:32:29.000 They hit the water and they sink.

01:32:30.000 At a predetermined time, they pop to the surface.

01:32:33.000 We grab it with a helicopter, bring it back to shore, and we test it for telemetry and make sure that this cruise missile was doing what it was supposed to do.

01:32:40.000 So they're out there in the helicopter, frogman hanging down the line.

01:32:45.000 You got the helo pilot, you got the crew chief and the co-pilot looking all down at the bubble.

01:32:50.000 And as they're about to grab this cruise missile out of the ocean, something huge and round, and what was described to me as black as a devil, starts to rise to the surface.

01:33:02.000 The water begins to churn, very much like David Fravor's description of the Tic Tac incident and the roiling water.

01:33:09.000 The frogman is so freaked out, he's literally trying to climb the line back up.

01:33:12.000 He's like total panic at the disco, right?

01:33:14.000 Yeah.

01:33:14.000 And the helicopter's like, do we do like an emergency ascent?

01:33:17.000 What the hell's going on here?

01:33:18.000 And right as this thing is about, and by the way, it's the size of a small island and round.

01:33:23.000 Right as this thing is about to break the surface, it sucks the missile down and disappears.

01:33:29.000 Jesus Christ.

01:33:29.000 And that was, yeah.

01:33:31.000 And Dave Fravor could probably tell you that story a little better than I can. 1.00

01:33:36.000 What the fuck? 0.99

01:33:36.000 But when you compare that to other things, you've got to say, hmm. 0.99

01:33:39.000 Imagine being that guy hanging from that line.

01:33:41.000 No.

01:33:42.000 No, thank you.

01:33:43.000 We call that bait.

01:33:45.000 Yeah, but it didn't do anything to him.

01:33:47.000 No.

01:33:47.000 I would have loved that experience.

01:33:49.000 Yeah, so that was one of the anecdotes that was revealed to us by one of the maybe helicopter pilots.

01:33:55.000 Who's that seal?

01:33:55.000 Who's that guy that was hanging from that line?

01:33:56.000 The frogman?

01:33:57.000 Was he a seal?

01:33:58.000 I don't know.

01:33:59.000 I don't even know the pilot.

01:34:01.000 Bro, come talk to me.

01:34:02.000 Please, sir.

01:34:04.000 I only know the pilot. 1.00

01:34:05.000 We'll put you in a fucking panda outfit. 1.00

01:34:08.000 We'll disguise your voice. 1.00

01:34:10.000 Tell me what the fuck you saw. 1.00

01:34:12.000 I want to hear that story. 1.00

01:34:13.000 Oh, my God.

01:34:14.000 Small island.

01:34:16.000 Yep.

01:34:16.000 Black as the devil in a small island and round.

01:34:19.000 Yeah.

01:34:19.000 Submarines look like this, right?

01:34:21.000 They're not round.

01:34:21.000 Right.

01:34:22.000 So that was one of the anecdotes.

01:34:26.000 That was shared with us.

01:34:27.000 You know, obviously Puerto Rico with the other, there's been some UAPs that have been recorded off there.

01:34:34.000 Everybody knows about Aguadilla, the Aguadilla incident.

01:34:36.000 I don't know about it.

01:34:37.000 Oh, I'm sure you do.

01:34:39.000 I do?

01:34:39.000 Tell me.

01:34:40.000 Wow.

01:34:40.000 Trust me.

01:34:41.000 So you can look it up online.

01:34:42.000 There's a video taken by a DHS helicopter of a very interesting object.

01:34:46.000 First, it appears to be like perhaps a balloon, but then it does all sorts of weird stuff.

01:34:51.000 And as you're tracking it, it enters the water without making a splash.

01:34:54.000 You can track it underwater.

01:34:55.000 Then it comes up and splits into two.

01:34:58.000 And it's been analyzed over and over again by a lot of experts.

01:35:01.000 It's called the Aguadilla Incident.

01:35:03.000 Maybe I have seen this.

01:35:04.000 Is it kind of blurry looking night vision?

01:35:07.000 There we go.

01:35:07.000 That's it.

01:35:07.000 Oh, wow.

01:35:08.000 And so keep watching that.

01:35:09.000 And I'll tell you a little story about this.

01:35:11.000 This is a Customs and Border Protection Release this.

01:35:15.000 How fast is this thing going?

01:35:16.000 Well, so if you look here, they're looking at this through a form of night vision.

01:35:20.000 I don't know the exact velocity.

01:35:22.000 All that is available.

01:35:23.000 But if you keep watching this, something interesting happens.

01:35:26.000 So here it goes.

01:35:28.000 You're going to see this thing enter the water here.

01:35:30.000 There it goes, underwater.

01:35:32.000 And then it pops back up and splits into two.

01:35:34.000 They're tracking it.

01:35:35.000 See, no waves, no wake.

01:35:37.000 And then it surfaces and then does something pretty interesting here.

01:35:42.000 So keep watching.

01:35:43.000 So it's going high speed through the water.

01:35:45.000 Underwater.

01:35:46.000 That's underwater.

01:35:47.000 Then it breaks the surface of the water again.

01:35:49.000 Keep watching.

01:35:50.000 Boom! 0.99

01:35:50.000 Underwater. 0.99

01:35:51.000 Overwater.

01:35:51.000 Boom!

01:35:52.000 Underwater.

01:35:55.000 Out of water.

01:35:56.000 And then you'll see it split into two.

01:35:58.000 I didn't see it split into two.

01:36:00.000 Did you see it?

01:36:00.000 If you watch the rest of the video, there it is.

01:36:02.000 Oh, there it is.

01:36:03.000 Yeah, the video is actually really long.

01:36:05.000 But that's just one example.

01:36:07.000 You know, you can see all these videos.

01:36:10.000 They're prevalent.

01:36:11.000 They're everywhere.

01:36:12.000 You see the aircraft on the bottom right?

01:36:14.000 You see the UAP on top that's tracking it?

01:36:16.000 Yeah.

01:36:17.000 No wings, no control surfaces.

01:36:20.000 And it keeps up with the A-10 and does all sorts of interesting maneuvers.

01:36:24.000 Right?

01:36:25.000 So that's an A-10 Warthog.

01:36:27.000 And this thing is just following it?

01:36:29.000 Yep, like it's nothing.

01:36:30.000 Do you think they're trying to let people see them?

01:36:35.000 Like, have you had a guess?

01:36:37.000 You know, I don't know.

01:36:38.000 I mean, could it be a demonstration of capabilities?

01:36:40.000 We do that, right?

01:36:41.000 Every time a Russian surveillance aircraft comes by, we launch two F-22s and we get real close to it and say, hey, you know, be careful.

01:36:48.000 But not even from a military perspective.

01:36:51.000 Like, if a civilization was trying to alert another civilization about its presence...

01:36:57.000 Wouldn't it, like, go towards whatever military vehicles it has and show itself? 0.95

01:37:03.000 And then I would imagine that if they understand human beings, they understand our psychology, and they understand that some giant size of an island, black as the devil, circular craft that lands next to the Pentagon would fucking end the world. 0.84

01:37:19.000 We would freak out. 0.93

01:37:20.000 No one would know what to do.

01:37:22.000 That would be stock market crash, mass chaos.

01:37:25.000 No one would know what to do.

01:37:29.000 Right.

01:37:49.000 You know, the counter-argument to that is that's a very human thing, right?

01:37:52.000 We have, as humans, we always, it's almost innate.

01:37:55.000 We look at everything through anthropomorphic eyes.

01:37:58.000 We look at, you know, our pet dogs and we give them human names and we do things like that because we assign human value to things because we have intentions and motivations.

01:38:10.000 But most of nature isn't that way.

01:38:12.000 Like, for example, when a shark Bites a surfer.

01:38:15.000 He's not wanting to hurt the surfer.

01:38:17.000 He's just hungry.

01:38:17.000 The shark's hungry.

01:38:18.000 I don't care if you're a seal or whatever.

01:38:19.000 I'm not trying to inflict pain.

01:38:21.000 I just want to feed my belly.

01:38:23.000 Intent and motivation is a very human thing, and we have to – I don't want to say resist the urge because it's almost impossible to do it, but we have to recognize that there are – There are things that may exist that don't have human motivation, meaning maybe they don't care about sensitizing us.

01:38:40.000 Maybe they do.

01:38:41.000 But maybe it's like a computer, right?

01:38:42.000 Maybe it's binary.

01:38:43.000 Maybe there's some sort of binary thought process, just information in and information out.

01:38:49.000 So that's one of the aspects I've always been very careful with is to assign human traits to something that is...

01:38:57.000 Very likely not human, right?

01:38:58.000 But would you have to assign human traits to it or would you have if you you could look at it from the perspective of These things are aware of our psychology They're aware of how we function and they're aware of the fragility of our worldview No, good point.

01:39:13.000 You don't have to have human intention to have a strategy for doing the least amount of harm to this emerging civilization.

01:39:23.000 Touche.

01:39:23.000 In fact, there's examples of that.

01:39:24.000 Let me reinforce your point, because there's examples of that, my background being science, in nature.

01:39:29.000 You know, when lionesses stalk the zebras, You know, they get very low into the grass.

01:39:35.000 They don't want to be seen, right?

01:39:37.000 They're not motivated necessarily because they don't want to spook the herd, but they do it.

01:39:41.000 It's almost instinctual, right?

01:39:44.000 It's part of their DNA, part of their wiring to have a low profile, low observability, and to get closer to their target, whether it's prey or anything else.

01:39:52.000 So you're right.

01:39:53.000 I mean, there are examples in nature that also can suggest that.

01:39:58.000 So it's a very good point.

01:39:59.000 Yeah, I mean, it just makes sense that if it understands us, if it's absurd, look, we understand the behavior characteristics of sloths, right?

01:40:08.000 We study them, we know what they do, and it would just make sense that if they're studying us, they would understand our behavior characteristics.

01:40:14.000 I mean, the tiger recognizes the behavior characteristics of the zebra, doesn't it?

01:40:18.000 Right, exactly.

01:40:19.000 It studies it, and so it knows what it has to do to get close to the zebra, so that's a very fair point.

01:40:23.000 Yeah, there's no way they would come here with ignorance.

01:40:25.000 And I think also it's very likely that what we are exists in many, many places in the universe and that what we are is what they used to be.

01:40:36.000 So they probably understand what we are.

01:40:38.000 Well, we do that in the Amazon, don't we?

01:40:40.000 Yeah.

01:40:41.000 And African tribes, lost tribes that are remote, right?

01:40:44.000 Separated by outside human contact.

01:40:46.000 We study them.

01:40:47.000 We study them from afar, but we do the same thing.

01:40:49.000 Yes.

01:40:50.000 Yeah, no question.

01:40:52.000 And obviously, if they are these super-intelligent creatures, they evolve to become super-intelligent creatures.

01:40:58.000 So there's probably some sort of universal process that takes place amongst all intelligent, creative life.

01:41:04.000 That has a lust for innovation.

01:41:06.000 They consistently make better and better versions of these flying crafts until they figure out how to make this warp drive thing that these things apparently have.

01:41:14.000 Another thing that's odd is that you see the same kind of things that Kenneth Arnold saw in 1950. You see the same kind of things today.

01:41:24.000 It's almost like You know, going somewhere in the 1950s and seeing a 55 Chevy, and then in 2024 seeing another 55 Chevy.

01:41:33.000 They're still driving around in 55 Chevys? 1.00

01:41:35.000 Like, what the fuck? 1.00

01:41:36.000 Well, they do do that in Cuba, right? 0.99

01:41:39.000 But that's just because they don't have access to other cars.

01:41:41.000 They don't have a choice.

01:41:42.000 Really good mechanics.

01:41:43.000 That's your people.

01:41:43.000 It is.

01:41:45.000 I'm really resisting the urge of continuing to smoke this thing right now.

01:41:48.000 Okay, I feel terrible.

01:41:50.000 Don't feel terrible.

01:41:51.000 My wife is going to give me hell for this. 1.00

01:41:53.000 I don't think there's anything wrong with cigars, man.

01:41:55.000 Like I was saying before, I never heard of a single person dying from cigars.

01:41:58.000 You don't inhale them.

01:41:59.000 Take a little bit of smoke in your mouth.

01:42:03.000 It's pleasurable.

01:42:04.000 It's nice.

01:42:07.000 I would just think that that's what they would do, because that's what we would do.

01:42:11.000 And I think that's what intelligent life would do.

01:42:14.000 We've recognized something that wasn't quite as intelligent as us.

01:42:17.000 We don't rush into these, you know, remote tribes and vaccinate them.

01:42:23.000 What do we do?

01:42:24.000 We don't give them...

01:42:24.000 But, you know, the thing is, like, they have done some things.

01:42:27.000 Like, they gave Starlink to this one tribe.

01:42:30.000 And the kids all started watching porn.

01:42:32.000 You hear about that?

01:42:33.000 Yeah, it became a real problem.

01:42:35.000 They're all lazy, hanging out on their phones all day, which makes sense.

01:42:38.000 That's what we do.

01:42:40.000 But the tribal leaders are not happy.

01:42:42.000 You bring up another very interesting point.

01:42:44.000 Is there a natural glide slope or a natural evolution Right.

01:42:59.000 Right.

01:43:02.000 Right.

01:43:04.000 Right.

01:43:11.000 So is that a universal norm?

01:43:14.000 Is that part of, like, fractals and geometry throughout the universe?

01:43:19.000 Is that part of the blueprint of all life?

01:43:22.000 Or is it only specific to life here on Earth?

01:43:26.000 And that's a great question because there's probably arguments to suggest that, yeah, there probably is a natural blueprint for physics in the universe.

01:43:35.000 They're probably, since life has to abide by physics, probably a natural, potentially natural blueprint for the evolution of all life.

01:43:42.000 Whether, again, bacterial or animal or human or anything else, non-human.

01:43:46.000 It makes sense.

01:43:47.000 It makes sense that everything moves into greater levels of complexity, from single-celled organisms to human beings that pilot drones.

01:43:56.000 It just keeps going in the same general direction, observably here.

01:44:00.000 And if the universe is infinite, that means there's infinite versions of what we're seeing here with us that exists throughout the cosmos and probably in infinite steps along the way, right?

01:44:11.000 A hundred years from now, a thousand years from now.

01:44:13.000 Well, not to make light of it, but I'll tell you recently.

01:44:16.000 So I've learned over the years there's nothing more expensive than a cheap lawyer.

01:44:21.000 So I've got a couple good lawyers that I work with on just contractual stuff, and one of them is named Ivan Hanel.

01:44:28.000 I call him the bull.

01:44:30.000 And I've learned to appreciate the infinite complexity of law and legal, right?

01:44:37.000 So if there is this natural progression as we're talking about life, I mean, we even see it in our own human interactions, right?

01:44:45.000 This intricate complexity of how things work and how even in the way we behave with each other socially.

01:44:53.000 When I was in the government, you could look at a terrorist link analysis and And that link analysis still follows those fractal patterns, that the patterns in our lungs, the patterns of lightning, the patterns of super-Magellanic clouds and galaxies,

01:45:09.000 super-clusters of galaxies, all have that same pattern.

01:45:12.000 And it's not just a physical pattern.

01:45:14.000 It's a social pattern, right?

01:45:16.000 And so, again, not to make joke of it, but I'm learning that it's beyond these patterns or beyond just Physical patterns, you know, even in something as silly but fundamental as law, there are these patterns that continue to spin off and whatnot.

01:45:31.000 So, yeah, I can appreciate that.

01:45:33.000 I think we're at a point now as a species where we probably should be having these conversations.

01:45:38.000 And I'll also say this, Joe, there are parts of this conversation I don't feel the government has any place.

01:45:46.000 There is definitely a national security conversation here.

01:45:50.000 But the conversation we're having, as you can tell, is far beyond national security, right?

01:45:55.000 We're talking philosophical, psychological, sociological, theological implications that I'm not sure I want my government necessarily dictating for me what I should think about this.

01:46:07.000 Well, the government's supposed to be working for us, ultimately.

01:46:09.000 And they are supposed to be us.

01:46:11.000 You know, and the problem is when you have access to information that's above and beyond the normal person's realm, That could affect everyone on this planet, this understanding that we are not alone.

01:46:21.000 But not only now, we're probably not even alone here.

01:46:24.000 It's not even that something is visiting us.

01:46:26.000 Something's probably here all the time.

01:46:28.000 You know, and this is the main thought about these underwater vehicles.

01:46:33.000 Well, life is abundant on this planet, isn't it?

01:46:35.000 Yeah.

01:46:49.000 Pops up.

01:46:49.000 It seems like if we can actually find it on Mars, like you were saying before, they may have found some sort of an evidence of microbiological life.

01:47:01.000 If we find it on Mars and we find it somewhere, they think maybe Europa underneath the surface.

01:47:05.000 That's right.

01:47:06.000 And Europa probably is powered by volcanic vents the same way the bottom of our ocean is.

01:47:12.000 There might be some sort of life form there.

01:47:14.000 Chemosynthesis, not photosynthesis.

01:47:16.000 All right.

01:47:16.000 And this is just what we know about here.

01:47:19.000 Imagine all the different potential realities in terms of what a planet's atmosphere could be like.

01:47:26.000 You're dealing with larger planets that have more gravity.

01:47:30.000 You're dealing with...

01:47:31.000 Different kinds of temperature variations.

01:47:35.000 Look at Titan.

01:47:35.000 It's methane.

01:47:37.000 And by the way, that's organic chemistry.

01:47:39.000 It's got methane clouds.

01:47:40.000 So there are things that thrive in these types of environments.

01:47:44.000 Maybe they have cow farts up there, too. 0.67

01:47:46.000 There are too many.

01:47:48.000 But yeah, I mean, you're absolutely correct.

01:47:50.000 I think we have, again, this goes back to the original point of every time we try to put Mother Nature in a box, she always finds a way to wiggle her way out of it and prove us wrong.

01:47:59.000 If the one thing we're right about is that we're always wrong.

01:48:02.000 Right.

01:48:03.000 How much, I don't know if you could talk about this, but how much of an effort is there to try to detect things under the surface of the ocean?

01:48:12.000 I would defer that to the United States Navy and maybe NOAA. National Oceanographic and Atmospheric.

01:48:19.000 Yeah, no, not the biblical NOAA. Oh, Jesus.

01:48:21.000 It goes that far back?

01:48:23.000 National Oceanographic and Atmospheric.

01:48:26.000 Speaking of going that far back, I got to think that when people are delving into this stuff, they look at ancient scriptures and these different depictions of things, whether it's the Vyamanas in the Hindu texts and whether it's in the Bhagavad Gita.

01:48:47.000 There's all these different stories in Ezekiel and the Bible.

01:48:50.000 There's things that seem to If I was a person living thousands of years ago and I encountered a flying saucer or encountered some spaceship from another planet, I would probably describe it in a way that they're describing it.

01:49:04.000 Yeah, I mean...

01:49:05.000 Just like sort of the Aztecs describe people on horses.

01:49:07.000 Today's magic is tomorrow's technology, right?

01:49:09.000 Right.

01:49:10.000 So I can tell you when I went to Italy, I spoke to one of the senior...

01:49:14.000 I think it was a Monsignor...

01:49:15.000 one of the senior Vatican academics.

01:49:18.000 And he said to me, he says, look...

01:49:21.000 The Vatican doesn't have a problem with this topic.

01:49:23.000 This is something, in fact, up until the 1600s, it was heretical to presume or assume that mankind was the only, if you will, incarnation of God, representation of God.

01:49:34.000 But in essence, you're putting limitations on the dominion of what God can and can't do.

01:49:39.000 And there are these scrolls, in fact, that are in the Vatican archives that discuss, it's a conversation between a Roman soldier and a Roman general, Where they describe, there's something called eclipus.

01:49:51.000 Eclipus in Latin means like sun, eclipse, right?

01:49:55.000 It's the shape of the Roman shield.

01:49:56.000 And they talked about these flaming Roman shields in the sky that would follow them from battle space to battle space.

01:50:02.000 And Mr. Jacques Vallée could probably expound much more upon that than I can, but this was just a brief conversation I had with someone there.

01:50:10.000 Jacques Vallée is very slippery.

01:50:11.000 Is he?

01:50:12.000 Very slippery.

01:50:14.000 He don't commit to anything.

01:50:16.000 He looks at you sideways.

01:50:19.000 Yeah, he did a lot of good stuff.

01:50:22.000 Oh, yeah.

01:50:23.000 And he's an incredibly smart guy.

01:50:24.000 Great researcher, just phenomenal, you know, big brain.

01:50:27.000 Well, he's the reason that guy, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, he's the inspiration for the French guy. 0.86

01:50:32.000 I heard that.

01:50:33.000 Yeah.

01:50:34.000 Yeah.

01:50:34.000 I never had the guts to ask him.

01:50:35.000 I figure he probably gets tired of being heard of that.

01:50:37.000 I'm sure.

01:50:38.000 When you're talking to him, you're like, God, that's the guy.

01:50:40.000 But, you know, there's a lot of...

01:50:43.000 And when you look at what the Vatican is, I mean, really, it's probably the world's oldest, most capable intelligence organization because they have priests around the world that people will report miracles to, right, and confessions to, and eventually that gets filtered up to the Vatican.

01:50:57.000 So, you know...

01:50:59.000 Talk about, you know, the world's first CIA and KGB. It was Vatican, baby.

01:51:03.000 Those guys had it going on.

01:51:05.000 And so, no wonder they have all this archival information, and some of it relates to UAP. Wow.

01:51:15.000 Yeah, it only makes sense that these things, if they're here now, they've probably been visiting us since back when we were on horseback.

01:51:22.000 Yeah.

01:51:22.000 And probably quite a bit before then.

01:51:24.000 And maybe that's the scariest thing for people.

01:51:26.000 They might be responsible for us being humans in the first place.

01:51:29.000 Well, you remember the stories, right, of even Christopher Columbus coming over to the New World.

01:51:34.000 There were some interesting accounts when they were on the water of potentially some sort of UAP interaction.

01:51:39.000 I did not know that.

01:51:40.000 Yeah.

01:51:40.000 You can look it up online.

01:51:41.000 This is all open source.

01:51:42.000 But you can type it up and...

01:51:44.000 There were some very interesting accounts.

01:51:46.000 And even, you know, old, old, old sailor accounts, you know, of, you know, people say, well, you know, old sailors also talked about, you know, big giant kraken and stuff like that.

01:51:54.000 But there was always an element of truth to it.

01:51:55.000 Now, we realize there are giant squid in the Pacific, right?

01:51:59.000 Well, not only that, krakens, they think likely did exist.

01:52:03.000 Because octopus, when they rot, they don't leave anything.

01:52:06.000 But they did find fossilized suction cups from...

01:52:09.000 They still do.

01:52:10.000 It's called the Great Squid of the Pacific.

01:52:12.000 We find it.

01:52:12.000 Yeah, that for sure.

01:52:14.000 But they think maybe perhaps even an enormous octopus that probably actually did go after boats.

01:52:19.000 You know, we called them sea monsters back then, but really, you know, we laugh about it now, but it turns out there are sea monsters.

01:52:26.000 These are just called great white sharks and blue whales.

01:52:28.000 Megalodons. 1.00

01:52:28.000 That's a fucking sea monster. 1.00

01:52:30.000 Right. 1.00

01:52:31.000 That was a real thing.

01:52:31.000 A great white shark is now.

01:52:33.000 Absolutely.

01:52:34.000 Go swimming with a great white shark and tell me that's not a monster, right?

01:52:36.000 Exactly.

01:52:37.000 So, you know, we just realized it's just part of nature.

01:52:41.000 It's part of our existing paradigm.

01:52:42.000 Tigers are monsters.

01:52:43.000 Right.

01:52:43.000 Absolutely.

01:52:44.000 You know, especially at night when you don't have a flashlight, that thing behind the bush...

01:52:47.000 That's a monster.

01:52:48.000 Right.

01:52:51.000 Did you find anything on the Columbus stuff?

01:52:54.000 The one thing I'm seeing is from my Ancient Aliens episode.

01:52:57.000 You know it's legit.

01:52:59.000 I saw something crash into the water, but I can't find that.

01:53:02.000 Yeah, there were some reports of some interesting lights that the crew had reported, and it was actually, he put it down in his logbook, something about some interest.

01:53:10.000 Now, some folks will come back and say, well, that's St. Elmo's Fire, which it absolutely could be.

01:53:13.000 What is St. Elmo's Fire exactly?

01:53:15.000 St. Elmo's Fire is a static charge.

01:53:17.000 It occurs on the wingtips of aircraft.

01:53:18.000 Even the old sailors would report it.

01:53:20.000 In certain environmental conditions, there is this weird greenish-blue plasma glow that will often sometimes be seen on the tips of wingtips on aircraft.

01:53:31.000 There's some really good pictures of it online.

01:53:33.000 And even on the old mariner ships up towards the sails and the masts.

01:53:37.000 And they believe it's...

01:53:39.000 It has to do with static charge, and under certain environments, it creates this energized plasma, and you can see it.

01:53:48.000 Is that similar to, like, ball lightning?

01:53:50.000 Well, it could be.

01:53:50.000 Here you go.

01:53:52.000 And they call it St. Elmo's Fire. 0.99

01:53:54.000 Wow, that's fucking badass. 0.99

01:53:56.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:53:57.000 Whoa! 0.71

01:53:58.000 Yeah, it's around the cockpit of the aircraft.

01:54:01.000 Whoa! 0.71

01:54:01.000 And by the way, you see the patterns? 0.71

01:54:02.000 It's fractal, right?

01:54:03.000 Look at that ship.

01:54:04.000 So very, very interesting how St. Elmo's Fire, you know, It can cause some people to, you know, perhaps see things and say it's...

01:54:14.000 Also, they might be seeing that, yeah.

01:54:16.000 They might, right?

01:54:17.000 But there are some accounts of ancient mariners who report strange, bizarre things.

01:54:23.000 Yeah.

01:54:24.000 Again, it makes sense.

01:54:25.000 That was one of the more weird parts of Bob Lazar's story, was that they've always been here and that they view us as containers.

01:54:37.000 Containers, interesting.

01:54:38.000 Yeah.

01:54:39.000 And he said there's a very thick document that relates to the...

01:54:46.000 The implications that it has on religion and the way they talk about us.

01:54:52.000 Well, religion calls us vessels, right?

01:54:54.000 Religious scripture in a lot of different religions refer to humans as vessels.

01:54:59.000 I'm certainly not a religious expert, so I don't want to pontificate here and say something that's inaccurate, but that doesn't surprise me.

01:55:08.000 Well, I think they were saying vessels for souls.

01:55:12.000 But if you imagine...

01:55:14.000 That a being transcends its physical limitations of biological reality, right?

01:55:19.000 So the biological evolution that led us to become homo sapiens over the course of, you know, X amount of millions of years, that's a very slow process.

01:55:27.000 But technological innovation and technological progress is very quick, very quick, especially when you add in artificial intelligence.

01:55:35.000 Exponential, that's right.

01:55:36.000 Yeah, so if something comes along that Maybe that thing needs...

01:55:59.000 A thing with a soul that has a creative desire, that has a lust for innovation and continues to make better and better things.

01:56:07.000 And maybe that thing only exists in biology.

01:56:09.000 And maybe the problem with artificial life is that it has no motivation.

01:56:16.000 And that we have, especially if it's self-programmable, right?

01:56:21.000 So one of the very bizarre things that was recently discovered about artificial intelligence, they gave artificial intelligence a certain amount of time to code something, to figure something out.

01:56:36.000 And when it didn't have enough time, it changed its code to give itself more time.

01:56:41.000 Fascinating.

01:56:42.000 Yeah, like what? 1.00

01:56:43.000 What the fuck are you talking about? 0.99

01:56:45.000 It's deciding that it doesn't like its limitations. 0.99

01:56:48.000 So, It won't have any of the biological motivation we have, right?

01:56:54.000 It won't have ego.

01:56:56.000 It won't have materialism.

01:56:58.000 It won't have a desire for status.

01:57:01.000 It won't have all the things that lead us to do some of the horrible things that human beings do.

01:57:04.000 I could not agree more.

01:57:05.000 And also some of the great things that human beings do.

01:57:06.000 But maybe it also doesn't have any desire to create.

01:57:10.000 Maybe the only way for its kind of life to exist Is for a human being, a biological thing that's super intelligent in comparison to the rest of the animals on this planet, that innovates to the point where it creates this artificial life.

01:57:28.000 I'm going to share something very, very personal with you.

01:57:30.000 And I know when I say with you, I know it's with everybody else.

01:57:32.000 But, you know, I... Part of my struggle is I can't urge the government to be transparent, and I'm not transparent myself, right? 0.84

01:57:40.000 It's hypocritical.

01:57:40.000 So let me share with you a very personal story because you bring something up that I think is fascinating.

01:57:49.000 I'm a human being, but if for whatever reason I get into a car accident and I lose an arm, I'm still Lou Elizondo, right?

01:57:55.000 In fact, if I lose my legs and all my arms, I'm still Lou.

01:57:59.000 So my body doesn't define who I am.

01:58:01.000 And my intellect, right?

01:58:03.000 If I suffer a traumatic brain injury, let's say I'm in Afghanistan and TBI, and my brain is compromised, I'm still Lou.

01:58:15.000 And so what makes Lou or what makes Joe, Joe?

01:58:18.000 Well, it's not your physical self and probably not even your intellectual self.

01:58:24.000 My mother...

01:58:26.000 I was very close to my mother.

01:58:27.000 My mother was an incredible human being.

01:58:31.000 And I'll share this story with you and take away with it what you want.

01:58:35.000 I was very young, maybe two, two and a half, three years old.

01:58:38.000 And I remember watching a show with my mother, one of my very first memories.

01:58:41.000 And in this TV show, I don't remember what show it was, but I remember that a shark had eaten a dog.

01:58:48.000 And I was shocked.

01:58:50.000 My first understanding that What death was.

01:58:53.000 And I looked at my mom and I said, Mom, what just happened?

01:58:55.000 And she said, well, son, the shark ate the dog.

01:58:58.000 I said, what does that mean?

01:58:59.000 She said, well, the dog's not coming back.

01:59:01.000 The dog died.

01:59:02.000 I said, well, does everything die?

01:59:05.000 She said, well, yes, son, everything dies.

01:59:07.000 I said, well, Mom, you're not going to die.

01:59:09.000 You're Mom, right?

01:59:10.000 You gave me life.

01:59:11.000 She said, no, son, one day I'm going to die.

01:59:13.000 And I remember spending, from that day forward, as God is my witness, I spent every single day of my life Knowing one day my mother was going to die.

01:59:23.000 And it terrified me.

01:59:25.000 I was very, very close with her.

01:59:28.000 And one day, that day came.

01:59:32.000 My mother was diagnosed with cancer.

01:59:35.000 And she started... 0.60

01:59:38.000 Her body started failing.

01:59:40.000 And despite the best efforts, she...

01:59:42.000 We knew she wasn't going to make it.

01:59:46.000 And, you know, when you love somebody sometimes...

01:59:51.000 It doesn't sound right, but sometimes you deceive them.

01:59:53.000 They want to know they're in a bad state physically and mentally, and you say, am I going to make it?

01:59:58.000 And you say, yeah, of course you're going to make it, right?

02:00:01.000 Knowing full well that there's probably not a good chance they're going to make it.

02:00:05.000 And so we're in the hospital, and my mother had at this point been in probably a state of coma for about a week.

02:00:13.000 And it was just me, my wife, and a couple members of the family.

02:00:18.000 Very, very sad moment.

02:00:21.000 My mother began this process of death called, you know when someone's gonna die, there's something called a death rattle. 0.91

02:00:27.000 And it's when the mucus begins in the back of the throat to congeal.

02:00:32.000 And it makes breathing...

02:00:33.000 It can be very unnerving for the people who have to witness this.

02:00:36.000 It's very, very common.

02:00:37.000 It's called a death rattle.

02:00:40.000 It's the body beginning to shut down.

02:00:42.000 And I knew...

02:00:44.000 Something told me my mom...

02:00:45.000 My mom was going to go very quickly within the next 30 seconds to a minute. 1.00

02:00:50.000 So long story short...

02:00:53.000 My mother's body was, at that point, it was a husk, an empty husk.

02:00:57.000 It was broken. 0.65

02:00:58.000 Her brain had shut down.

02:01:01.000 And yet, the very moment she passed away, within five seconds, I knew it.

02:01:07.000 There was just something weird.

02:01:08.000 Something reached and said, this is it.

02:01:10.000 She's going.

02:01:12.000 And I reached over to the bed and I looked at my mom.

02:01:14.000 Her eyes all of a sudden opened up and she looked right at me.

02:01:19.000 And even though her brain had been compromised and wasn't working, her body was nothing anymore.

02:01:25.000 And she was a beautiful woman.

02:01:26.000 She worked for Playboy.

02:01:28.000 She was a beautiful lady at one time, a model. 0.99

02:01:31.000 Her body resembled nothing of what she did.

02:01:35.000 She looked at me, and she passed.

02:01:39.000 But we communicated.

02:01:41.000 And I knew there was something else at that moment more to a human being, more than just a body, more than just a brain.

02:01:49.000 There is something that is beyond the physical and even intellectual part of what it means to be human.

02:01:58.000 And I felt it.

02:01:59.000 And everybody in the room felt it.

02:02:00.000 It was undeniable.

02:02:02.000 You can call it a soul, an id, a cheat, whatever.

02:02:05.000 You can put a label on it.

02:02:06.000 I don't know what it's called.

02:02:07.000 I don't know what it is.

02:02:08.000 But I do know that was the essence of my mother.

02:02:12.000 And the moment she passed, it was this weird feeling because...

02:02:18.000 As my mother laid there dead in the bed, it wasn't my mother anymore.

02:02:23.000 That essence, whatever made my mother my mother.

02:02:27.000 And you could see the light in her eyes.

02:02:29.000 It was like someone turning off a light switch.

02:02:30.000 And I've been around death a lot.

02:02:33.000 It's a terrible, horrible thing, especially in warfare.

02:02:35.000 But this was something visceral.

02:02:38.000 This was something far more intimate.

02:02:42.000 This cut to my soul.

02:02:43.000 And I could recognize it.

02:02:45.000 And she recognized me and I recognized her, even though that the brain functions were gone.

02:02:49.000 So I guess my point is...

02:02:51.000 I absolutely believe there's something more to the human experience than simply a tangible body and a brain.

02:02:59.000 And I witnessed this firsthand.

02:03:01.000 Now, people can say all sorts of stuff they want.

02:03:03.000 I don't care.

02:03:04.000 I've got enough haters out there anyways.

02:03:05.000 If they want to think that I'm trying to...

02:03:10.000 Hope that my mother has a soul and she goes somewhere.

02:03:12.000 I'm just telling you what I experienced and other people experience too.

02:03:15.000 And it was proof for me at that moment that there's much more to us as human beings.

02:03:22.000 I had a very similar feeling when I went to my grandfather's funeral and I saw him in the casket because it was an open casket and I knew he's gone.

02:03:33.000 I'm like, that's not him.

02:03:34.000 That's right.

02:03:34.000 It's just a show.

02:03:35.000 And you can sense it.

02:03:36.000 You feel it.

02:03:37.000 Yeah.

02:03:37.000 It was a very strange feeling.

02:03:39.000 Yeah.

02:03:40.000 And obviously he's wearing makeup because they've got him in a suit and the whole deal.

02:03:44.000 But I was like, that is not my grandfather.

02:03:46.000 He's not there anymore.

02:03:47.000 And it's not like you're trying to override this acknowledgement that they're dead.

02:03:51.000 You know they're dead.

02:03:52.000 It's just that whatever made that person that person, it's not in the body anymore.

02:03:58.000 It's gone.

02:03:59.000 There's a bizarre feeling that we have that you don't...

02:04:04.000 I don't think there's words for it.

02:04:07.000 It's a feeling.

02:04:08.000 It is.

02:04:09.000 And again, it's not an intellectual or even a physical thing.

02:04:12.000 Yeah. 0.69

02:04:19.000 The idea that we're containers for souls is just so goddamn creepy.

02:04:23.000 This is a farm of souls. 0.50

02:04:25.000 I'm not familiar with that hypothesis, but it sounds interesting.

02:04:30.000 Also scary, perhaps.

02:04:32.000 Well, it's scary for us, you know, but...

02:04:38.000 Like, you got to wonder why we are so different than every other creature in that we have this insane, insatiable desire to change our environment.

02:04:49.000 Constantly build bigger skyscrapers and to move the earth and we're constantly inventing new technology.

02:04:59.000 I mean, it seems to be an instinct that's a part of us.

02:05:04.000 And if this gradual progression of life is life goes from intelligent biological life to super intelligent, whatever it is, whatever kind of technology creates it, that life is not as simple as...

02:05:22.000 This natural selection model that we have here that we think applies to life.

02:05:29.000 This is a type of life and then there's a life that this thing creates.

02:05:34.000 Well, you know, evolution isn't just a physical thing, is it?

02:05:38.000 Evolution is the ability to change within one's environment over time.

02:05:44.000 And that's a fascinating concept you bring up because some speculate That it is inevitable that human beings will eventually evolve into something.

02:05:54.000 We're just a link in a much longer chain.

02:05:56.000 And that all intelligent life potentially goes through this process.

02:06:00.000 And that this is a natural process where eventually we actually make ourselves extinct.

02:06:05.000 Not in the way where we kill ourselves, but we wind up creating a life form, whether it's AI or we start enhancing ourselves with more and more machine interface.

02:06:13.000 And, you know, life doesn't have to necessarily be organic, right?

02:06:17.000 You could have potential.

02:06:18.000 I mean, silicon is very, very close to carbon in some cases.

02:06:20.000 So, you know, is it possible that life, it is destiny for all life eventually to evolve itself out of existence and bring in or usher in a new type of life form?

02:06:32.000 Is it possible?

02:06:33.000 I mean, certainly from a technological perspective, I mean, ask Elon Musk.

02:06:37.000 It seems that we're We're making a lot of advancements right now to augment the human experience.

02:06:42.000 And given, as you said, how technology progresses exponentially, very quickly, in the next 200 years, I mean, we might be there.

02:06:50.000 Is this sort of conversation being had in the government about what these things potentially are?

02:06:57.000 Not to my knowledge, and I sure hope not, because I don't think the government...

02:07:01.000 This is a conversation.

02:07:02.000 This is where I go back to.

02:07:04.000 This is a conversation that involves a lot of people, you know, whether it's your priest or your rabbi or your imam or it is your philosophy teacher at the university.

02:07:15.000 I think we're getting into an area now that is beyond national security.

02:07:20.000 And honestly, Joe, I'm not comfortable...

02:07:29.000 Right.

02:07:40.000 It's also other human beings.

02:07:41.000 The government is just human beings.

02:07:43.000 That's right.

02:07:44.000 Human beings shouldn't have this insane knowledge and keep it from other human beings.

02:07:49.000 Well, in fact, it's illegal, especially in our democracy.

02:07:52.000 This type of stuff is supposed to be discussed with certain members of Congress and certain elements of the executive branch.

02:07:58.000 And when somebody, I don't care if you're in the government or in a religion or anything like that, this goes to the fundamental pillar of something that agrees me, which is corruption.

02:08:06.000 Now, when I say corruption, let me backtrack a little bit.

02:08:10.000 My father recently died this last Father's Day.

02:08:13.000 Not this one, but the one before.

02:08:14.000 And I had the privilege of knowing he was sick, and so we took a road trip down to Miami about a month and a half before he died.

02:08:23.000 And he never told me he was sick, but I knew something wasn't right.

02:08:26.000 I knew my father for a long time, and something wasn't right.

02:08:30.000 He started losing weight, and I could see he wasn't eating as much, and there were telltale signs, and he didn't want to tell me.

02:08:36.000 And I asked my father almost flippantly, I said, I think we were probably somewhere by St. Louis.

02:08:42.000 And I said, Dad, what is the greatest threat to humanity?

02:08:45.000 To humans?

02:08:46.000 What is the greatest threat?

02:08:46.000 Now, I say it flippantly because I'm thinking, you know, terrorism, right?

02:08:50.000 This and that.

02:08:51.000 My father thought for a second.

02:08:52.000 He looks at me and says, Son, it's corruption.

02:08:55.000 And I said, what do you mean corruption?

02:08:57.000 Like financial corruption?

02:09:00.000 Governmental corruption?

02:09:01.000 He says, no.

02:09:03.000 Corruption at its heart is when you are willing to...

02:09:07.000 Bypass your own moral code, your own ethics for something else.

02:09:12.000 And whether it's financial corruption, religious corruption, governmental corruption, or even moral corruption, when you start to compromise on your own values, it's a very quick downward spiral to utter chaos.

02:09:29.000 And he know that firsthand because my father was in the Bay of Pigs invasion.

02:09:33.000 He was a political prisoner of Castro.

02:09:35.000 He actually fought with Castro against Batista.

02:09:37.000 And then when Castro went communist, my father joined the folks here and the friendly folks at the CIA and was part of the invasion of the Bay of Pigs.

02:09:45.000 He spent two years in Castro's prisons being tortured.

02:09:49.000 So when he came to this country, this country offered us opportunities that no other country could or would.

02:09:56.000 And the reason why Cuba failed was because of corruption.

02:10:00.000 And he said, look, corruption will be the end of all.

02:10:04.000 And it's a very quick downward spiral with democracy that if democracy becomes corrupt, you now have tyranny, right?

02:10:13.000 And so every time someone in the government is willing to compromise a little bit on the value of what it means to serve the American people and they forget that, they become corrupt.

02:10:23.000 And that actually erodes the very essence of what democracy is and what this country is about.

02:10:29.000 And that is why it is so important that the individuals in our government that don't want to have this conversation and don't want to talk to Congress and are making the unilateral decision on your behalf and the American taxpayer on my behalf That's wrong.

02:10:43.000 They don't have the right to do that.

02:10:44.000 There is a process of rules and laws we have in this country that we've all agreed to are going to abide by, and that includes them.

02:10:50.000 And they don't have the right to bypass that.

02:10:52.000 Even if they think they're doing it for the right reason, I disagree with that.

02:10:56.000 I think this democracy only works because we all agree it works, right?

02:11:01.000 And the moment you begin to compromise on that...

02:11:04.000 All of democracy is at risk.

02:11:05.000 And I mean that sincerely.

02:11:07.000 It's not a slow downward spiral.

02:11:10.000 It's quick.

02:11:11.000 And you can hit rock bottom very, very quickly.

02:11:13.000 And the only reason why this government works is because we all have faith and a commitment to what we consider are the American values and serving the American people and, you know, for the people, by the people.

02:11:25.000 So I think it's very dangerous when elements in the government, and I don't want to villainize the whole government because the government's full of great people.

02:11:32.000 They do great things.

02:11:33.000 They keep us safe.

02:11:34.000 So I'm talking about the minority few.

02:11:37.000 Some of these people who have actually gone after me will probably continue to come after me to try to discredit me and everything else, despite the volumes of documentation that I have in my possession and others, because they don't want to have the conversation and they are happy with the status quo.

02:11:51.000 And to me, that is a greater threat than any UAP could ever have on humanity.

02:11:57.000 The greatest threat is how we perceive ourselves and what we are willing to do to keep this a secret in violation of the commitment and and and what we have done to we've sworn in some cases to uphold the values of this country and I think that's a concern for me and that's why I don't want certain elements having this conversation of what this means you know the bigger macro level conversation because I don't think they're qualified I'm not qualified I know that I'm damn sure they're not qualified

02:12:27.000 either.

02:12:28.000 So this is why I think this type of national level conversation is so important.

02:12:33.000 At the end of the day, it's not up to me.

02:12:34.000 People say, Lou, what do you think?

02:12:35.000 You know, tell what I think.

02:12:36.000 It doesn't matter what I think.

02:12:37.000 What matters is what you think.

02:12:38.000 Here's the information.

02:12:39.000 Here's the data.

02:12:40.000 You figure it out.

02:12:41.000 Don't ask me what this means because I'm not entitled to that.

02:12:45.000 I didn't earn that privilege.

02:12:46.000 And I would definitely never take it away because that is sacred.

02:12:50.000 That's you.

02:12:51.000 That's up to you to decide for yourself.

02:12:54.000 And this is part of my frustration with this overall conversation because there are elements that don't want you to have this conversation.

02:13:03.000 Well said, Lou.

02:13:04.000 Thank you very much, man.

02:13:05.000 Thanks for being here.

02:13:06.000 I really enjoyed it.

02:13:06.000 Really enjoyed our conversation.

02:13:08.000 Joe, this has been fantastic and truly, truly an honor and privilege.

02:13:11.000 You have one hell of a responsibility.

02:13:13.000 You are...

02:13:14.000 Look, I got to tell you, I don't ever get nervous doing an interview.

02:13:19.000 You were the first one and probably the only one I will ever have been nervous coming in just simply because not because of me because of you the responsibilities you have on your shoulders to have a communicate you reach a global audience people are listening to this conversation right now and by the way they're part of this conversation very much so right that is an enormous responsibility you have a voice in some cases That exceeds presidents.

02:13:47.000 The technology you now have available to your fingertips and this wonderful staff you have, you are influencing the world.

02:13:54.000 And I can't imagine that type of responsibility.

02:13:58.000 I mean, there are world leaders that don't have the voice you have.

02:14:02.000 And so for me, it is a profound, profound honor and privilege to be with you here today and your wonderful audience.

02:14:11.000 You know, if I never see you again, I wish you the best of luck.

02:14:15.000 You're doing America a great service.

02:14:18.000 Be honest.

02:14:18.000 Be candid.

02:14:19.000 Speak your mind.

02:14:19.000 That's all I can say as a little chicken here in the United States.

02:14:26.000 You've got big shoulders, man.

02:14:27.000 You've got a big weight, a lot of responsibility on your back.

02:14:30.000 And I mean that sincerely.

02:14:31.000 You're freaking me out, man.

02:14:33.000 I'm telling you.

02:14:34.000 But thank you very much.

02:14:35.000 Thanks again.

02:14:36.000 I really appreciate everything you've said, and I appreciate everything you said about disclosure and how important it is.

02:14:42.000 I couldn't agree more.

02:14:44.000 Joe, it's been my honor and privilege sincerely.

02:14:46.000 My honor, too.

02:14:47.000 Thank you very much.

02:14:47.000 Yes, sir.

02:14:48.000 All right.

02:14:48.000 Bye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - August 23, 2024

Joe Rogan Experience #2194 - Luis Elizondo

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