In this episode, the boys talk about a bunch of weird stuff, including Carl's new dog, the cat lady, and how the brain works. Also, a lot of other stuff that's not important. Also, we talk about the movie "Frankenstein" and the fact that Carl can't remember lines from movies, which is pretty cool. And, of course, there's a new segment called "Dr. Seuss's Last Podcast of the Week" where we discuss the weirdest things science has ever told us about the past and present, and we try to make sense of it. It's a good one, and it's a fun one, so you don't want to miss it! Logo by Courtney DeKorte. Theme by Mavus White. Music by PSOVOD and tyops. Art: Mackenzie Moore. Music: Hayden Coplen. Editor: Patrick Muldowney. Cover art by Ian Dorsch. We'd like to learn a little more about you, the listeners. Please take a few minutes to fill out this brief survey. We'll see if we can figure out what questions you have about the show and we'll get back to you in the next episode with more questions and suggestions. Thanks to everyone who submitted them. If you have a question or would like us to answer them, we'll answer them on the next week's mailbag. Thank you, Joe Rocha, Mike Eichler, and the rest of the boys at the podcasters at The Joe Rogan Experience Train. Thank you so much appreciated your questions and support the Joe Rogans Experience Podcast. by the guys at the Joe Rgan Experience Podcast by the JoeRgan Podcast, and all of your support is appreciated. Joe Rogan Experience Train by the Rochao Podcast, by the crew at The Rochans and the R&D Project by the Crew at Joe Ragan Experience Podcasts at and The R&B Project at . Thanks also to the Rookwoodwood. The Rookies at R&Reedy Crew at the Roods Project at G&S at The G&R Project. and the folks at , the Ryders at Tuxedo Project, and , and at the VFW at the New York Public House, and at The New York Museum of American History.
00:00:00.000the joe rogan experience train by day joe rogan podcast by night all day we got stars we got coffee we got mike roe we got carl's over there snoring i So what were you doing on QVC? What are you selling?
00:00:24.000That was the greatest line from Blazing Saddles, by the way.
00:02:05.000Like that happened with the integrated circuit, right?
00:02:08.000When Kilby at Radio Shack was doing the same basic work, I think, that Robert Noyce was doing for Intel.
00:02:18.000And one was here in Texas and the other was in California.
00:02:23.000And they had never met and they had never compared notes, but the work on the circuitry was so close that they wound up sharing the Nobel Prize.
00:03:34.000A guy wrote, name was Patrick House, this was his PhD, and he was talking about Toxoplasma gandii, and histoplasmosis, and it was a crazy paper.
00:03:45.000His real premise was trying to understand the phenomenon of the cat lady, and why every culture, like this isn't unique to America, in every culture you can find a woman Who, you know, two cats, three cats maybe, but like went all the way to 38, right?
00:04:05.000And just was like, this is perfectly normal.
00:04:07.000So his paper was what happens to a person's brain to tell it it's normal to have 38 cats.
00:04:14.000And then it gets super complicated because he identifies a gandhii that lives in the cat's gut and basically breeds there.
00:04:25.000And what he learned was when the cats were crapping, the gandhii would come out.
00:04:33.000And then the rats and the mice that ate the cat crap, something was happening to their brains on a neurological level.
00:04:43.000This gandhii basically disabled the part of the brain that would tell an otherwise sentient rat to run from the cat.
00:04:54.000They became prey and they became docile and the cats started obliterating the mice and rat population because this thing that was breeding in its ass...
00:05:05.000Was effectively making its prey easier to catch.
00:05:10.000So Dr. House thought, well, you know, we've all heard about why pregnant women should stay away from cats, because that can have an effect.
00:05:19.000And a rat's brain and a human brain have a surprising number of parallels.
00:05:24.000So he basically postulated that, you know, Doris the cat lady was living a fairly normal life until she God, just a little bit of cat shit on her fingers and ate it.
00:05:35.000And the Gandhi eye disabled the part of her brain that said, hey, maybe two cats is enough.
00:06:41.000Homeostatic risk and risk equilibrium and the unintended consequences, especially with motorcycle riders that emanate from safety protocols gone too far.
00:06:52.000So like if you study the way you drive your motorcycle, like you measure every decision that you make in terms of cornering and speed and braking and all that stuff...
00:07:06.000And then you measure the same things with all the safety gear employed, including a helmet, especially a helmet.
00:07:17.000You take more chances because the risk equilibrium that we all have in our brain is different from one person to the next.
00:07:27.000But what's the same is our desire to compensate for the environment around us.
00:07:33.000So compensatory risk and the subconscious decisions that we might make behind the wheel when we're buckled up versus not buckled up when we have ABS breaks as opposed to not having them.
00:07:48.000They did a big survey in Berlin years ago where they took half of the taxis and they put in state-of-the-art braking systems and half of them and left the others the same.
00:07:58.000And then they hooked up the cars to monitor every driver decision and in virtually every case.
00:08:06.000The drivers with the better safety gear took more chances because their brain is subconsciously compensating.
00:08:38.000So yeah, the unintended consequences of following traditional safety protocols, you know, has always really been interesting.
00:08:45.000This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter.
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00:10:39.000I think it's a slightly different analysis.
00:10:43.000If you're going to adjust your behavior consciously to adapt to the externality, you're going to drive faster if you have a fast car because you know...
00:11:06.000You know, it's the unconscious things that you do when you assume or mitigate risk as a result of employing an externality that I think is just super interesting.
00:11:22.000Well, because if it's right, Joe, if it's right, what it does is it turns all the safety-first protocols, not necessarily on their head, but this happened in Dirty Jobs.
00:11:35.000I did a whole special called Safety Third because safety isn't really first, not really, ever.
00:11:42.000Because if it was, you would never get a lot of things done.
00:11:45.000Well, you'd never get out of the studio.
00:11:47.000You would definitely never do construction.
00:12:01.000Look, I mean, for me, it took two years to kind of puzzle it through because on dirty jobs for the first two years, nobody got hurt.
00:12:11.000And we sat through probably 50 mandatory safety briefings, whether it's mines or confined spaces or high spaces or lockout, tagout.
00:12:26.000All those protocols and procedures were super intense.
00:12:30.000And we were really, really focused on coming home alive and in one piece, so we really paid attention.
00:12:38.000But after two years of these mandatory compulsory meetings and all of these procedures, We all started getting hurt.
00:12:47.000I mean, nothing serious, but broken fingers and a cracked rib and singed off my eyebrows and my eyelashes and mild concussions and things like that.
00:12:58.000I was like, what the hell's happening?
00:12:59.000What was happening is the safety experts in all of these mandatory meetings started to sound like Remember Charlie Brown's teacher?
00:13:20.000And so that begs the question, what...
00:13:24.000What happens to a normal person who actually comes to believe, either on the job site or just in life, that somebody else cares more about their well-being than they do?
00:13:38.000And it's like, that's when complacency rears its ugly head.
00:13:43.000So on Dirty Jobs, it was just shorthand among the crew, but it was always safety third, which meant heads up, man.
00:13:53.000You can be as compliant as you want, but in the end, if you don't want to fall off the bridge, it's kind of on you.
00:14:01.000Is there also a factor when you have a person who's the safety officer who's kind of annoying and they're like really like super interested and maybe you kind of like pawn off the safety aspect to them and then you don't think about it as much because someone's supposedly looking out for you?
00:14:19.000How much do you think about proper driving technique when you're sitting in the back on your laptop or even up front next to it?
00:15:50.000I freelanced for years, probably 20 years in the entertainment business working Pretty much whenever I wanted on shows that I didn't care about at all.
00:16:03.000And I was taking my retirement in early installments and really happy with the model, you know?
00:16:11.000I'd been fired a few times from QVC and hired back and it was 1993 when I finally left and I had a decent toolbox.
00:16:20.000I was great in auditions so I could get cast.
00:16:24.000But I didn't really much care about the nature of the work.
00:16:28.000And I had a pretty good balanced life, really.
00:16:32.000And then I was in San Francisco working for CBS on a show called Evening Magazine.
00:18:54.000It was from La Boheme, which is just another version of Rent, essentially, but it was called the Cote Aria, and it was only two minutes long, and it was in Italian, so I walked around Baltimore with, you remember, the Sony Walkman?
00:19:41.000Yeah, I'd had a music teacher prior to that, like a Mr. Holland type of guy, who actually changed my life.
00:19:48.000He kind of fixed a stammer that I had, and then he forced me to audition for plays that I didn't really want to be in.
00:19:57.000And then, the craziest thing ever, this guy, his name was Fred King.
00:20:02.000He was known as King of the Barbershoppers.
00:20:05.000He was like a legend in this weird world of acapella singing.
00:20:11.000And he put me in a barbershop quartet when I was in high school and opened up like this very weird world of music written long before I was born that I found super interesting.
00:20:24.000And so my best friends and I We just started learning these ancient songs and singing for people, usually unsolicited, from nursing.
00:20:36.000What kind of fucking dudes are you hanging out with that were interested in doing this with you?
00:20:39.000Well, one of them is basically my producer, a guy called Chuck Klausmeier, who I went to high school with, produces my podcast.
00:20:47.000And we'll write unauthorized jingles for our sponsors and sing them in four-part harmony.
00:21:08.000And then you decided you were going to learn how to sing opera.
00:21:12.000Well, what really happened was I decided that my toolbox wasn't going to let me work in the construction trades or do anything my pop could do.
00:21:22.000And he really was a magician, and I really took his advice seriously.
00:21:30.000I wanted to be on TV. But I needed an agent.
00:21:33.000And I couldn't get an agent unless I had my Screen Actors Guild card.
00:21:36.000And I couldn't get my SAG card unless I had an agent.
00:21:39.000So I couldn't audition for things that I wanted to do unless I found a way around this weird tautology.
00:21:46.000And a friend of mine, a guy called Mike Gellert, told me, he said, hey, so there's the Screen Actors Guild.
00:21:53.000At the time, there was AFTRA, and I'm sure you were part of both.
00:21:58.000The thing you didn't know about was AGMA. The American Guild of Musical Artists is a sister union to the Screen Actors Guild and to AFTRA, who have since combined.
00:22:12.000And the rule back then was, if you could get into any of them, you could simply pay your dues to the other, and then you were in.
00:22:58.000I was stopped halfway through it by the musical director, a guy named Bill Yannutzi, who's like, Mr. Rowe, you have no idea what you're saying at all, do you?
00:23:09.000Because you're saying the words wrong.
00:23:29.000I got into it, and my plan was to do one production or one season.
00:23:36.000Like, they would do three shows in a season.
00:23:37.000And I had some friends who were in the chorus, and I was just a chorus member.
00:23:42.000I'm just holding a spear and just singing along with the rest of the chorus.
00:23:46.000And my plan was to do one or two of those, get my card, and then buy my SAG card, and then go about the business of being a famous TV star, right?
00:26:30.000So there's an intermission, and I'm not needed on stage for like 40 minutes after the intermission.
00:26:39.000So I go across the street to the Mount Royal Tavern to drink a beer and watch the football game, dressed as a Viking, which I recommend, by the way.
00:26:49.000When you walk in a bar with the horns and the spear...
00:26:53.000The bartender knew me, everybody laughed, and I sat down, but the game wasn't on.
00:26:57.000The bartender was watching a fat guy in a shiny suit selling pots and pans.
00:27:03.000And it was the early days of the QVC cable shopping channel.
00:27:08.000I'm like, Rick, why are we watching this?
00:27:11.000And he says, because I'm auditioning for that guy's job tomorrow morning.
00:27:14.000The QVC was doing a national talent search.
00:27:19.000We had a conversation about the end of Western civilization and what it meant for polite society to have a 24-hour infomercial that just never went away and whether or not there was any honor at all in auditioning for such a thing.
00:27:34.000And at that point, I thought it'd be great to have some...
00:27:38.000Money, you know, I hadn't had any before.
00:27:41.000And I'm sitting there drinking this beer dressed as a Viking thinking, I could probably do that job if I had to.
00:27:49.000So I went with him the next day and auditioned and got hired.
00:29:16.000A salesman, that didn't mean you had anybody who understood really how to behave on TV. And if you hired a TV person, that didn't really mean you...
00:31:32.000And as I watched him do his thing, it reminded me, like, my favorite comedians, I never get the sense that they're trying to make me laugh.
00:31:43.000I get the sense that they're trying to amuse themselves.
00:31:48.000And that's what makes it comfortable for me to be in the audience, to see somebody who, you know, hey, if I laugh, that's just a happy symptom of whatever it is you're going to do anyway.
00:32:15.000I knew in the middle of the—like, everything that it turned out that I needed to know about this crazy business, I learned in the middle of the night on the QVC Cable Shopping Channel over a three-year period, trying to make sense.
00:33:31.000After I talked about a pencil for eight minutes, I was on the air 48 hours later at 3 in the morning trying to make sense of the health team infrared pain reliever and the Amcor negative ion generator.
00:33:53.000If you came in a couple hours early and you took the time to look through, like there was a table like this with all of the stuff on it that you were going to be selling and you could take the time to prepare.
00:34:42.000And if you understand that, you can talk about anything for as long as you need to.
00:34:46.000You never talk about a feature without talking about its benefit.
00:34:51.000And so that's kind of how that world worked.
00:34:54.000So you don't say it's a pencil for 99 cents.
00:34:57.000you say it's a yellow number two pencil with an eraser that is of the exact proportion necessary to last for the life of the pencil so when this thing is down to a nub you'll still have enough eraser left it's really a monument to efficiency and ingenuity and it's not just yellow it's yellow because you're a busy professional and when you need a pencil Joe when you open up your drawer you don't have time to root around for some vaguely beige colored writing implement you
00:35:27.000You want that canary yellow to pop and you can pick it up, right?
00:39:29.000You had plastic bags were great because you could chuck them out the window and it never damaged the paper.
00:39:33.000Robber bands were a real pain in the ass because you could hit a corner on the concrete, it would rip the corner of the paper, and then the customer would complain because they're trying to read about what's going on in Syria, and then there's this fucking broken piece of paper.
00:39:44.000I delivered the New York Times only because it was cool.
00:39:49.000I delivered the Boston Globe because that was the biggest distribution.
00:42:57.000I love just the fun nature of the news.
00:43:00.000That was like the working person's newspaper.
00:43:03.000This is the point I was trying to make about the comedian who entertains himself first and the schmuck on QVC who tries to keep himself awake before he sells the thing.
00:43:45.000Whether you're publishing a paper, or eating a blue crab, or writing a book or a song, How can you, in relative terms, distinguish yourself, not from these other worlds and other categories, but from your friends?
00:44:23.000I said to Ashton, your very excellent driver, who brought me here, I said, you know, it's been fun watching Joe do this thing over the last five or six years.
00:44:37.000And then I kind of stopped myself in the middle and I said, actually, you know, I take it back.
00:45:09.000Whether it's comedy or whether it's music, When culture changes, it feels like there's some instigator, some jagged little pill who's pushing it forward.
00:46:22.000I really firmly believe this in a non-hippie way.
00:46:25.000I think it's like a scientific concept.
00:46:28.000I mean, I think if we could figure out a way to study it, we would recognize that we're psychically all connected in some strange way.
00:46:35.000And I am curious as to how someone with a different biology, different life experiences, different geographic location in which they were raised, like, how are they navigating the world and why are they interested in opera?
00:48:00.000If there's a wildebeest trying to get across the vast reaches of the barren Serengeti, right?
00:48:06.000If I could remember every episode of How the Universe Works, 10 years of this stuff, if I could remember half of what I narrated, that would be something.
00:50:34.000I think it let me get really good at things, too, because I can remember like technical – like it was really good for martial arts because I can remember technical details.
00:50:42.000Like really – like I don't forget things.
00:50:44.000See, you, to me, are the deeper end of the pool.
00:51:13.000I've seen a couple, but it's like— Well, there's a big, giant difference between being a former competitor.
00:51:21.000And also like dedicated decades of my life to martial arts.
00:51:25.000It's not as simple as like I go and I do commentary.
00:51:29.000Like I started doing martial arts when I was 15 and it changed my life.
00:51:33.000It gave me discipline and a will to overcome uncomfort, discomfort and to push myself and to overcome fears and to do something that's very scary and to compete and that was like it formulated me as a teenager.
00:51:47.000So I started competing competitively like Serious shit when I was like 15 years old and so we were traveling all over the country and And so my social life from like 15 to 21 was completely retarded.
00:52:02.000Retarded as in slowed down, like the real term.
00:52:05.000And it was mostly just training and competing.
00:55:11.000Fear Factor stopped in 2007, and No Reservations, I think, was around that time.
00:55:18.000Yeah, he was on in 6. For sure, Dirty Jobs went on in 03. Yeah, and then the CNN show, which was, I think, like CNN's highlight of their time.
00:55:30.000And I think he really changed that network.
00:55:33.000Because all of a sudden, that network was this fucking cool show where this guy had this brilliant narration, and he had this wanderlust...
00:55:42.000But also with this like real fascination with people and cultures and just really loved it.
00:55:58.000He really wanted to know what these people were all about, you know?
00:56:01.000I've never, this will sound vainglorious, and I don't mean it to, but with the possible exception of me on Discovery in 2010, narrating half their shows and hosting Dirty Jobs, which was a thing, you know, I felt...
00:58:52.000We thought we were going to get cancelled literally every year except the year we got cancelled.
00:58:56.000The year we got cancelled I was shocked because that was like the year after Phil died and then John Lovitz took his place for a season and then they cancelled it after that.
00:59:06.000And, like, the perfect thing for our show, we never even hit the 100 episodes for syndication.
00:59:12.000They had to sell it at, like, 98 episodes.
01:00:02.000He said, I'm going to take your tape and tell all these other production companies that MTV wants to sign a deal with you and it'll start a bidding war.
01:00:10.000And he was brilliant and he did it and that's exactly what happened.
01:00:13.000And the next thing you know, I couldn't answer my phone because my phone was just calling agents and people would just call me.
01:00:19.000Like some guy called me from Universal.
01:00:21.000What the fuck is going on in this shitty apartment on my way out the door to play pool and this guy is telling me he wants me to get on a flight that night.
01:01:10.000It was a super uncomfortable experience.
01:01:12.000And it was the worst experience on a show because the people that ran the show, Jeff Martin and Kevin Curran, super funny, talented guys who'd worked on Married with Children and The Simpsons.
01:01:59.000No aspirations whatsoever to be an actor.
01:02:02.000Never wanted to be on TV. And then I'm working with Andy Dick, and Phil Hartman, and Maura Tierney, and Candy Alexander, Vicki Lewis, and Dave Foley?
01:04:51.000Everything, like the idea that somebody else is writing lines for me, I know that sounds impossibly arrogant, but I was so used to, nobody writes for me.
01:05:39.000You know, a thing can live in your mind so much bigger than it is in reality.
01:05:45.000And so while I loved doing it for that week, I said to my business partner over it, this thing that I used to think of as the single most efficient way to make a living was so wildly inefficient.
01:07:07.000I just wanted to make a living doing comedy, and then somebody offered me more money than I made in a year for a week, and I was like, this is crazy, and then all of a sudden I'm on a show.
01:08:03.000She called me one day, and I was in my full-on freelance world.
01:08:07.000I hadn't had a job since QVC, so this is like 1999. And she says, I just want to send you out for something, because I know you're going to book it.
01:08:17.000And I said, well, actually, yeah, I could use a gig.
01:08:34.000And then later that week, she says, this guy from Nashville, Michael Orkin was his name, who I had worked with years earlier, not Nashville, Memphis, He was hosting the EP on that Evening Magazine thing that I mentioned.
01:08:51.000And he's ready to hire you based off your blooper tape.
01:08:57.000My whole audition reel in those days was a compilation of every moment that went off the rails at QVC. All the things that led to my eventual firings as well as the cat sack and all the other crap.
01:10:58.000Back in whatever it was, 2001, she was just a pain in my ass.
01:11:01.000And she called me to say, you know, wouldn't it be great if your granddad, this guy whose shadow I grew up in, you know, could see you doing something?
01:11:10.000Because like my pop, he'd seen the opera.
01:11:12.000He'd seen QVC. He'd seen every godforsaken infomercial.
01:14:03.000Well, what happened a week later when this thing finally aired was I was fired because people sitting down to hear their heart-tugging story of the three-legged dog up in Marin overcoming canine kidney failure, and it's me, a smart-ass 42-year-old crawling through a river of crap.
01:14:22.000I mean, they're trying to eat their meatloaf.
01:14:25.000It was the wrong segment for that show, but Talk about fortunate.
01:14:32.000The mail that came in as a result, some people said it was funny and they liked it.
01:15:22.000I was like, what if the viewer programs the show, A, and what if B, the host of the show, is the person that I meet who welcomes me into their shithole, or wherever they work?
01:15:38.000And what if I'm not a host, after all?
01:15:41.000After 20 years of impersonating a host, What if I'm a guest or an apprentice or an avatar or a cipher, right?
01:15:53.000What if I just think of myself differently than this guy who hits the mark and looks at the camera and tells you the cat sack is 29. I mean, what if you just let all that go?
01:16:05.000And, you know, I don't know that I would have thought of it like that at 22, certainly not, not even at 32, but at 42, I was entering a more introspective kind of phase.
01:18:12.000And then, you know, Anthony Cumia had his own show that he did in his basement, live at the compound, where he'd sing karaoke, holding a machine gun, that fucking maniac.
01:18:21.000And then the other big one was doing the Tom Green show, because Tom Green had his own sort of internet talk show that he did out of his house.
01:18:35.000And I actually was in negotiation with the people that were doing his show, and I was thinking about doing something on my own, but then I was like, I can't work with anybody.
01:18:44.000I don't know if this is of interest, and Jamie, forgive me, because I don't know if I'm supposed to ask you to do things, but I sold the first karaoke machine.
01:21:08.000I used to make fun of QVC. I still do.
01:21:10.000But in reality, man, there was something strangely comforting about that kind of production value.
01:21:17.000And everything I learned that turned out to be useful, you know, I learned in the middle of the night.
01:21:23.000Yeah, there's a thing about something that's overproduced that kind of dissolves some of its authenticity because there's too much thought.
01:21:31.000Put into each and every shot, everything.
01:21:50.000There's something smart about that because it does keep you engaged, but it doesn't feel as authentic as if it was just like one person following them around in real time with no edits at all, just one camera on them.
01:22:20.000You need it in order to have a finished product, but when you get in your own way, then you get in the viewer's way.
01:22:27.000And one of the things that kept Dirty Jobs on the air for 20 years, early on, I kind of realized that, and I wasn't sure what to do about it, but I thought, Maybe we need to think of the show like a documentary.
01:22:48.000And so if my mic pack went out, or if a plane flew over, or if somebody screwed something up, or if we had to stop for whatever reason, I always knew there was a truth cam.
01:23:24.000That was a whole new way to think about authenticity.
01:23:28.000Vivek Ramaswamy was the only candidate I invited onto my podcast because I read somewhere that he said if he was nominated, he vowed to never use a teleprompter.
01:23:47.000Whether you can pull it off or not, I just thought that was so interesting.
01:23:51.000And I wanted to talk to him about that specifically.
01:23:54.000And then it's funny, a year later, you know, I think the teleprompter is probably the best example of one forced error after the next.
01:24:07.000Like when you think about the anchor who just wants to be believed, the spokesman who just wants to be seen as credible, the politician who just wants to be – just wants it justified.
01:24:19.000It's like they want to be authentic and yet they do the single most inauthentic thing you can possibly do which is pretend to not read a thing that everyone can see you're reading.
01:24:33.000And so like the cognitive dissonance is rich, you know, And I just think we've entered into this world where, like, the least persuasive thing you can do is say, trust me, or take it from me.
01:24:50.000You know, people have just been burned so much that they're going to need...
01:25:14.000That's what's interesting about social media and social media – like, there's this giant resistance right now to the idea that X is the new source of the world.
01:25:30.000You – and these people that want to cling to authority and say, no, you're not.
01:25:35.000You're – goddammit, you're not the fucking – you're not a journalist.
01:25:38.000You're not this – You guys fucked us too many times and we don't believe you anymore.
01:25:45.000And so the only way for us to find out what's real and what's not real is someone posts it online and then everybody looks at it and then you get the community notes.
01:25:55.000And that's way better than the New York Times telling me that the Froot Loops in Canada are exactly the same as the Froot Loops in America, except for a bunch of shit that's banned, and that's the whole point of the whole fucking thing.
01:26:07.000But meanwhile, they're fact-checking RFK Jr., so now I don't trust you anymore, either.
01:26:47.000And if you can just do a little research and go through that paper or go through that thread, if you're an objective person, you'll probably get a good sense of who's right and who's wrong.
01:26:58.000It's a weird dichotomy, though, right?
01:30:16.000When you're at your best, in my view, when I'm listening to you, when I high-five you virtually, it's when you asked the question I was thinking...
01:30:57.000Oh, the stakes around me, right, all of a sudden have changed.
01:31:03.000So it's so interesting that he was sitting right where I'm sitting, and you feel the need to kind of put some sides on this thing because you understand, first and foremost, that as an audience member, Right?
01:31:19.000As somebody who's just listening to this as a fly on the wall, I'm getting a little lost.
01:31:27.000So, I mean, you can say that, hey, that's Joe being a good host, or that's Joe being super honest in a conversation where he's starting to drift a little bit.
01:31:37.000I'm most certainly aware that people are going to listen to it.
01:31:41.000But I don't think, like, the questions, like, maybe the audience would want to know this.
01:31:46.000I do do this one thing, even if I know how a thing works, I will ask a person how a thing works so that the audience can hear it from them rather than from me.
01:31:58.000I don't want to be Mr. Smarty Pants, but I don't have to be.
01:32:00.000But that's one thing that I do where I'm aware that people probably don't know what we're talking about.
01:32:05.000Could you explain where this came from or why this?
01:32:09.000Because sometimes people, especially if they have an area of expertise, they just assume that people know what they're talking about when they're talking about specific techniques or Ways they do things.
01:32:17.000So in that way, I do think about the audience.
01:32:19.000But most of the time, that's just like I'm just doing my job.
01:32:22.000But mostly all I'm trying to do is be 100% locked in.
01:32:27.000And I feel like if I'm locked in and I'm just real honest and just try to be really curious and really just try to get the most out of this person, that's going to be good for the audience.
01:32:58.000I wanted to just be able to talk to her and ask her a question.
01:33:00.000I want to get a sense of her as a human being.
01:33:03.000And if it's policy talk that bothered them, like there was a few things they didn't want to talk, marijuana legalization, they initially didn't want to talk about internet censorship, and then they changed their tune, and then they wanted to talk about internet censorship.
01:35:05.000He's fucking catching rockets with robot arms.
01:35:07.000Okay, if that's happening, how come this can't be fixed?
01:35:11.000Because this didn't used to be like this, so why is it like this now?
01:35:13.000Why does the Red Cross have these stations set up where they're giving people maps and instructions?
01:35:18.000Why does China have these places in Mexico where they only have Chinese menus, Chinese writing, Chinese everything, and these people are coming from China specifically to the spot and then making it across the country?
01:35:37.000Maybe that would have been a disaster.
01:35:39.000Because that's something that I felt like if she didn't want to talk about marijuana and didn't want to talk about internet censorship, Immigration is an interesting one, right?
01:35:49.000It's very interesting, because, like, first of all, I am pro-immigration.
01:36:08.000So we should have some stipulations, though, about who gets in, and how you get in, and where are you coming from, and what is your past like?
01:36:41.000If you're one of those people that comes over in 1820 and you're making your way across the plains and you encounter the Comanche, you're the piece of shit.
01:37:09.000At one point in time, every human being that's a nomadic person that's made their way across the country, you've probably entered a place where people were before.
01:37:25.000If we didn't actually, if the founding fathers didn't pull it off, you know, we would be these wild renegade English people that decided to come over here and just fucking create havoc.
01:37:35.000So, yeah, man, there are a lot of ways to go with all this, but I'll just come back to the teleprompter and say, if that's an essential part of how you communicate, and if that's part of your image, then you can't be on this show.
01:38:17.000But if you make a person do that, like if you're going to be a politician, right, okay, and you were a senator, which is, you know, you don't get that kind of exposure that you get if you're a vice president or you're running for president initially.
01:38:31.000Like that's a totally different scene and there's probably a bunch of people that coach you how to do it right and you don't know what the fuck you're doing and if you're not a powerful person like a big personality like Donald Trump who could just do it but also coming from a world of entertainment for most of his life he's been the public eye and hosting The Apprentice for 14 years like he's used to being in front of the camera it's a normal experience for him he has a massive advantage That's what I meant by production becomes
01:39:02.000When you rely upon it to the point where you can't function in the midst or in the wake of a glitch, well, in a world of glitches, you're in trouble.
01:39:12.000And I think the audience, not just yours, but the country, I just think they're just exhausted by people who have been managed and focus grouped and weighed and measured and tested and then put out there.
01:39:27.000I think it's also the evolution of culture in general, because if you just go back to, we were talking about media, you go back and watch a film from 1950 versus a film from 2024, the way people communicate now is much more realistic.
01:39:43.000There was a way of talking, like, Hannah, what did you do?
01:39:48.000There was a weird performative aspect to it because they didn't know how to do it right.
01:39:56.000And then as time moved on, it changed.
01:39:59.000Like All in the Family was all of a sudden this realistic portrayal of a family where you've got a racist dad and the son is, you know, the meathead, the son-in-law, and the daughter's a hippie, and the mom just came from, what are you doing?
01:41:57.000How he talked Malone into getting some transponder space for maybe his Westinghouse and mortgage his house to buy some documentaries from Australia and started beaming all that stuff down.
01:42:11.000I asked him years ago, I'm like, what was the...
01:42:15.000What was the guiding principle behind this business model?
01:42:20.000And of course, you know, Discovery has since purchased Warner Brothers.
01:42:25.000You know, they're the biggest entertainment company in the world today.
01:42:28.000And it started with John Hendricks saying, one goal, to satisfy curiosity.
01:45:07.000I was in some of the greatest, the largest undiscovered graveyard in Bawiti, the Sands of the Dead, where they found the mummies with the golden masks.
01:45:19.000And nobody knew who the hell they were because it wasn't attached to any dynasty.
01:45:23.000And Who are all these people with golden masks on their faces?
01:45:26.000And so Discovery would send me to do these shows, and they were great.
01:45:31.000Meanwhile, this hot mess that looked like a German porno called Dirty Jobs winds up on the air, and it rates like through the roof.
01:45:44.000But the problem in 2004 was that And this is a kind of cognitive dissonance that always is super interesting, right?
01:45:55.000When a big company or a brand or a political party or really anybody realizes that the thing their audience wants is not the thing they want them to want.
01:46:36.000It was shelved because it was deemed off-brand.
01:46:38.000It was shelved because I was biting the testicles off of lambs with ranchers, and that's how they castrate their lambs, and they have for hundreds of years.
01:47:07.000But they liked me, and they liked this idea of a more unscripted look at the world.
01:47:15.000And so we reached this kind of detente, and I started narrating all their tentpole shows, and then I went to Alaska to host Deadliest Catch.
01:47:24.000Which is a whole other story, that crab fishing show.
01:47:37.000And I went to six funerals in six weeks.
01:47:40.000And when we looked at the footage of that, and somebody up the food chain eventually decided, okay, this is a world we have to get into, but Mike, you're not hosting two shows at the same time, so pick one.
01:47:56.000So Dirty Jobs came back, went into full production late in 2004, and Deadliest Catch went into full production about the same time, but I just narrated.
01:48:06.000Moral of the story is, everything that happened After that and around that, I'm not saying because of it, but right around that same time, I think the media world, in nonfiction anyhow, began this migration from the age of authority into the age of authenticity.
01:48:27.000And ever since, nonfiction has been grappling with that just as surely as every other vertical.
01:48:35.000Because People want to see something that feels like the truth, and that's a sliding scale.
01:49:52.000He shows you exactly how the sausage is being made, but it's also like now you can trust him because you know he's kind of sabotaging the narrative that they've created for his own show for his authenticity.
01:50:01.000I would do that for a scene, maybe even for an act, maybe even for a whole segment.
01:51:24.000What did they think I was going to do?
01:51:26.000So it's like he says something like, in the face of this kind of wanton deception, a reasonable man can turn to nothing but the elixir of distilled alcohol.
01:51:39.000And he just drinks for the rest of the show.
01:52:16.000I've been in this world where you're nervous, you've got a lot of stuff to worry about, and then somebody just comes along and tries to produce a moment.
01:56:33.000When I see someone just hit a perfect 50-yard shot in the vitals and that broadhead sinks in, I know that animal's going to die very quickly.
01:56:40.000It's a quick, humane death, and that's what you practice for.
01:56:44.000You know Josh Smith over at Montana Knife, by any chance?
01:57:09.000And bow hunting is even more primal than that.
01:57:12.000Bowhunting is that times 100. So it's regular hunting is fishing times 100, then bowhunting is regular hunting times 100. I just think, you know, if you're – whatever canvas you're in front of, whether you're painting or whether you're cooking or whether you're stalking, like you can – the muse, like does the muse come to you when you're stalking?
01:57:35.000Does it come to you, you know – I don't have an answer for it, but I know that people talk about it like some people say, well you're in the zone.
01:57:45.000Sometimes when I write, I'm surprised.
01:57:49.000Just the other day, I started writing something on the tarmac of SFO, and when I looked up, I was at JFK. It was like that.
01:58:16.000And I did it mostly in moments that I don't really remember when time gets compressed.
01:58:25.000And I think that can happen when you're fabricating something, when you're hunting something, when you're painting something, maybe in the middle of a set, maybe in the middle of a fight.
01:58:34.000You know, I talk to boxers who say that it's so odd the way Things will sometimes almost feel like they're in slow motion, even though they're happening so fast.
02:00:00.000He gave Floyd a hard fucking time because he's so difficult to fight.
02:00:05.000Like, look, how do you deal with that?
02:00:07.000And when you're a guy like Floyd and you're getting clowned, here he's fighting Mickey Ward.
02:00:12.000When you're a guy like Floyd and you're, you know, the cream of the crap, Olympian, I mean, a fucking phenomenal boxer, just a fantastic boxer, and then you're fighting this guy who's dancing in front of you, like, what the fuck?
02:00:28.000Like, you rarely get a guy who's clowning like that, but also, like, that kind of head movement skill.
02:00:34.000Phenomenal movement, but also can dance in front of you and land shit that you don't see coming, because it's coming at those weird angles.
02:02:06.000But this Louis Tian, what did he do differently?
02:02:08.000Louis Tian was a pitcher, and his wind-up was such that it looked sort of traditional, but But then he'd turn his back to the batter without leaving the rubber, right?
02:02:21.000So this guy would spin all the way around before he threw.
02:02:29.000And he'd go further than that sometimes.
02:02:50.000So it's like, oh, you know, if you're a batter, you're like, all right, there are a lot of different pitchers, and I'll get used to this, and I'll get used to that, and then this guy comes along.
02:03:28.000I have to follow jujitsu, Muay Thai, MMA in the UFC, MMA in the PFL, Bellator, 1FC. I have to keep track of a thousand fighters, like literally a thousand fighters.
02:03:45.000Maybe casually, some of them, like some of the glory kickboxers, casually I'm watching, you know, oh, Badr Hari's fighting, oh, you know, this guy's fighting, that guy's fighting.
02:04:09.000But I do feel obligated to pay attention.
02:04:12.000Like there's guys that are coming up in other organizations.
02:04:15.000I see guys have like a specific skill set that's unique.
02:04:19.000Like I contacted Conor McGregor in like 2013. He was fighting in Cage Warriors and I reached out and I said, dude, you're fucking super talented.
02:04:28.000I hope I get to see you in the UFC someday.
02:04:32.000You know, kickboxers like Alex Pereira, I follow him in glory, and then finally he comes over to the UFC and I was like, you gotta see this guy.
02:04:41.000It's like, you have to have some sort of an understanding of what's coming, you know?
02:04:47.000And also, you have to like kind of be tuned in to the state of the art.
02:04:50.000Because the state of the art is very different in 2024 than it was in 97 when I first started working for the UFC. The state of the art is elite now.
02:04:59.000You're getting these 18-year-old kids that can do everything at like a super high level.
02:05:05.000And they're like these phenomenal athletes that instead of going into baseball or instead of going into football, now they're only focused on becoming a UFC champion.
02:05:31.000You've had a front row seat to watching that sport become as dominant as it is at the same time you're watching the podcast world blow up in a really similar way.
02:06:43.0002001. So I'm on Fear Factor at the time, and one of the things, me and my friend Eddie Bravo, who was also a big fan from back in the day, and he taught me Jiu Jitsu, when we were first really into it, when we would go to like Louisiana, they were the only places that would sanction these fights.
02:07:01.000They were bare knuckle, people wore shoes, you could grab their shorts.
02:10:50.000So, you know, I've got this foundation that evolved out of Dirty Jobs.
02:10:57.000It's called Microworks, and we award these scholarships to people who don't want to go to a four-year school, but who want to learn a trade, right?
02:11:08.000And I started doing it In part for my granddad, but mostly because there are, what, 8 million jobs now that don't require a four-year degree, and there's $1.7 trillion in student loans on the books, right, that is just bananas, and we've got these huge shortages in the skilled trades.
02:11:35.000So I spent a lot of time talking about Sure.
02:11:48.000metal shop and sure you know before it was shop it was it wasn't just votech It turned into VoTech.
02:11:57.000But before it was VoTech, it was the vocational arts.
02:12:03.000And so we didn't just get rid of the vocational arts.
02:12:08.000We started with the language, and we took art out of it.
02:12:13.000And that's when it became VOTEC. And then there were a bunch of other acronyms and abbreviations and hyphenations and so forth.
02:12:19.000Well, there's also a weird distortion in our society where we have decided that we place a higher value on someone spending an enormous amount on education for a job that doesn't pay nearly as much as the education cost, where you're burdened with debt doing a job where you have to work your way up a corporate ladder that might be hell over becoming a carpenter.
02:12:46.000And if you're a guy who can figure out how to do good carpentry, if you understand how to use tools, you're taught properly, you have a good apprenticeship, you can make an incredible living, it's very satisfying, it's skilled, it's a job that is creative, it's skillful, and When you're done, you bring satisfaction to other people that live in that house.
02:13:22.000And you go through the university system, you get a degree that's kind of useless, but then you get a job and you're making $60,000 a year and you're like, oh my god, I have $200,000 in student loans and I'm doing a job that's not very satisfying and I'm kind of stuck.
02:13:36.000I'm working my way up, but it's going to take a long time before I make enough money where I'm not burdened by this.
02:14:20.000It's not good for anybody to think that way.
02:14:23.000Well, you know, I very rarely play the devil's advocate in this argument, but I do think I know why it happened, or at least how.
02:14:33.000And I was in high school in the late 70s, and there was a very concerted push for what we call higher ed, which, by the way, already sets the table, right?
02:14:51.000But the PR, and to be fair, in the 50s, 60s, 70s, we needed more doctors, we needed more engineers, we needed more people matriculating through four-year schools.
02:15:03.000But what happens with PR, at least from what I've seen, is that it always goes too far.
02:15:09.000And it wasn't enough just to make a persuasive case for that path.
02:15:13.000We had to do it at the expense of the jobs you're talking about.
02:16:04.000Like, there was a guy, I think it was a PBS show, where he would make tools and, like, do, like, stuff the way people did, like, way back in the day.
02:16:13.000Like, he'd make his own planer and all, you know?
02:16:40.000Well, what's happened there, for me anyway, is that I, I mean, after 16 years of it, I can tell a pretty good story anecdotally, but now I'm able to go back and talk to people who we helped, what, five, six years ago with, like, maybe a welding certification.
02:16:58.000And it's amazing when you say, hey, how's it going?
02:23:21.000You want to take magnesium, and you want to take K2. You want to take vitamin K, magnesium, and, you know, there's some arguments from other stuff, too, that would also enhance it.
02:23:31.000But you definitely need vitamin D. Almost everybody does.
02:23:34.000And if you live in a cold climate in the wintertime, you know, a buddy of mine did his residency in, I think it was Boston, And he was saying people would come in and they'd have undetectable levels of vitamin D because they were just never in the sun and they didn't supplement at all.
02:23:50.000And, you know, there's some vitamin D in milk when they enrich it with vitamin D. But the reality is you need vitamin D and you need quite a bit of it.
02:23:59.000And if you want an optimal immune system that's really healthy, it's imperative.
02:24:15.000If you don't have these things, your body won't function right.
02:24:17.000Do you think that the basic fear and conversation around skin cancer and the lotions and the coverings and the sunscreens and, I mean, to what extent do you think people are not getting vitamin D because they've been scared out of the sun?
02:28:12.000And if your life is super easy and anything that comes up is a nightmare, it's probably because you lack enough voluntary adversity to overcome uncomfortable moments.
02:28:25.000So uncomfortable moments are rare, and when you encounter rare things, generally people kind of have anxious moments encountering rare things.
02:28:33.000Well, anxiety is a form of discomfort.
02:29:07.000I used to have some of my best ideas when I had no radio in my car because I would just be driving and my best ideas would come while I was driving.
02:29:15.000So instead of being entertained, I would just be like thinking.
02:29:24.000Ordinary activity like driving where you're just so sort of like plugged in like hit your blinkers change lanes You're so plugged in so you're in like this weird mindset and then if there's no nothing entertaining you your mind just starts thinking about things right because sometimes you come up with great ideas your your mind Your brain will find whatever you send it out to look for.
02:30:20.000But because I do it, I know that I've already done something way more difficult than most of my day.
02:30:27.000I think there's a difference in knowing what the benefits are of a cold plunge, which would require you to do some research and do some reading and do some thinking and so forth, versus just saying, okay, I know there's some benefit.
02:30:41.000I don't actually need to know specifically what it is.
02:30:43.000I just need to know that there's an overarching benefit in embracing the suck.
02:31:09.000Difficult things that are also very beneficial physically.
02:31:11.000They seem to go hand in hand because it's the hormetic effect.
02:31:15.000Your body's freaking out because of the cold and that's why it produces all these cold shock proteins and that's why it produces all these anti-inflammatories.
02:31:25.000Your body just feels better when you get out, the endorphin rush you get.
02:31:28.000You know, the norepinephrine, this flood of these chemicals that last for hours, ramps up your dopamine by like 200%, and it lasts for hours.
02:34:10.000Nantucket back then was basically run by women because the men would go out for two, sometimes three years at a time hunting right whales, which are just sperm whales.
02:35:15.000But when you read through the real process of getting a sperm whale out of the ocean alongside the ship and then onto the ship and the cutting of the blubber and the cauldrons that burn 24-7 on the deck and the blubber that's put into the cauldrons.
02:35:38.000So they're just making this rendered fat.
02:35:40.000They're rendering the fat in the oil in real time.
02:38:51.000So what happens, and this is all in the preface, but the story basically starts when one of the whale boats is discovered not far from, I think it was Venezuela, and the guys look over the gunwale of their boat, and in the whale boat, it's just like a giant carcass.
02:40:17.000In 1820, the Whaleship Essex was rammed and sunk by an angry sperm whale, leaving the desperate crew to drift for more than 90 days in three tiny boats.
02:41:13.000To find yourself with a group of people, hopelessly marooned, whether you're on a boat or an island with nothing to eat at all, there were protocols, pretty strict protocols, on how to draw lots to decide who would go first.
02:41:31.000How to kill the person who would go first.
02:43:23.000The crew, according to Chase, separated limbs from his body and cut all the flesh from the bones, after which we opened the body, took out the heart, and then closed it again, sewed it up as decently as we could, and committed it to the sea.
02:44:03.000This is why the greatest American novel, arguably of all time, was written, because Melville came from that part of the world, and he understood the stakes of hunting whales, and he understood the absolute imperative need to get energy.
02:44:21.000You can make a really interesting and controversial case around how the fossil fuel industry saved the whales.
02:46:02.000Nobody knows really what he looked like.
02:46:04.000Well, they're working from a model that seems to have been blessed by all the appropriate parties, but they started working on this thing 50 years ago, and it's going to take another 40 before they're done.
02:46:17.000I worked on the fingernail of Crazy Horse with a whole crew.
02:47:58.000Also, human beings at that point in time were so horrible to each other, and these settlers had done essentially demonic things to the population, just with diseases, just bringing diseases.
02:48:10.000So, of course, they would say, what are they doing now?
02:49:35.000And I'm not telling you this story to make anybody sound bad, but it really just was kind of appalling.
02:49:41.000I said, look, I want to bring my crew, and I want to tend to this statue, this statuary, this monument.
02:49:53.000At the time, you know, the headlines were filled with statues being pulled down and being disrespected for any number of reasons, right?
02:50:02.000I'm like, look, I think the Park Service does an amazing duty, and I want to meet the caretakers of our statuary, and I would love, you know, to...
02:50:13.000Work on this with the people who work on it.
02:50:16.000And they not only said no, they were like, are you crazy?
02:50:21.000We would never, we would never permit anything like that.
02:50:26.000Like, I think they thought it was exploitative somehow.
02:51:52.000When you think about a couple of guys smoking cigars and sipping a coffee and just passing the time, and all of a sudden you're able to learn about the way they drew lots and where we got our energy from just a little while ago.
02:52:36.000I forget, but the Buffalo premise is very fascinating because the numbers of Buffalo, he believes, they were in such large numbers because so many Native Americans died out because of diseases.
02:52:51.000So the Native Americans would follow the buffalo, hunt them, and kill them.
02:52:54.000It takes a long time for gestation for a buffalo.
02:52:57.000So when the buffalo have new buffalo, it's a long time to repopulate.
02:53:02.000But if the Native Americans, 90% of them were wiped out by disease when the settlers came here.
02:53:06.000So there's no one hunting them for a long time.
02:53:42.000So when they first were here, right, buffalo existed far back before the – there was a mass extinction of like 65 percent of North American mammals.
02:53:55.000That coincided with the end of the Ice Age and probably had to do with the Younger Dryas impact.
02:54:00.000which is a theory about – The Cambrian thing?
02:54:03.000It's 11 – well – There's two different time periods that they attribute to...
02:54:08.000There's a shower, an asteroid shower that we go...
02:54:11.000If you really want to get into this, you should really look up Younger Dryas Impact Theory online.
02:54:17.000And then there's a guy named Randall Carlson who's kind of dedicated his life to...
02:54:22.000Showing that this is probably what ended the ice age.
02:54:26.000There's a bunch of science behind it in terms of like core samples and stuff they do that shows that there's asteroid impacts that happened all over the world during this particular time period.
02:54:35.000And he thinks that coincided with the extinction of the woolly mammal, the American lion, a lot of different animals that just died off.
02:54:43.00065% of North American mammals died off during this time period.
02:54:47.000And you got to think like when the buffalo existed back then, they existed with the North American lion, which was bigger than the African lion.
02:54:59.000So they're getting jacked by these massive predators.
02:55:03.000And then you have this extinction event and then you have humans start hunting them.
02:55:08.000And so, humans, now, horses have been reintroduced to North America by Europeans.
02:55:13.000Humans are on these horses, and then they're hunting these animals.
02:55:16.000Reintroduced, by the way, because horses originated in North America, including zebras.
02:55:20.000All horse species came from here, but that was the Bering Land Bridge, and things moved around, and when the mass extinction event happened, it killed off all the horses here.
02:55:31.000But then there was horses over there that they had kind of extirpated from America, brought them back in.
02:56:47.000Like I was talking to a friend of mine just yesterday about how the universe works, which is a show I've been narrating for the science channel literally for 10 years.
02:56:57.000And, um, you know, he, he, he, he knows all of the information in the show, but he thinks because he heard me tell it to him that I know it too, but I don't.
02:57:37.000And I think humans like yourself, this is kind of a new thing.
02:57:42.000In terms of human history, people that are exposed to so many different things, so many different topics, so many different experts, so many different timelines and stories that you're dealing with.
02:57:52.000It's essentially a new thing with human beings.
02:58:17.000But we're still stuck with this hard drive, with this world that has an endless supply of information and it's consistently bombarding you with new facts.
02:58:27.000I read that like Bill Clinton's number is...
02:58:49.000There's a podcast out there basically called, I don't know what it's called, Experiencing the Joe Rogan Experience or something, because there's too much information on your show.
02:59:28.000If you're gonna go see a martial arts fight for the first time, if you're gonna go to the octagon, it'd be better to sit next to you than me.
03:00:13.000Acquired upon the consumption of all the other information like it's all Exponential piles on top of each other.
03:00:20.000It's it's not just Now we know because of the new information because of the information that we've acquired now we have a new understanding so that's new information You know, nutrition.
03:00:31.000There's constantly new information on nutrition.
03:00:59.000Right, but it's fairly new anyway, because nutritional science has really only been around for, what, 100 plus years?
03:01:05.000And the understanding of it today is far greater than at any other time in our life.
03:01:10.000Because of guys like Huberman, because of these different scientists that have dedicated themselves to educating people about nutrition, the process that your body goes through and it absorbs nutrients, and what enhances that, what enzymes, different things that you eat.
03:01:27.000a body of information that exists that I don't know.
03:01:29.000And then there's a body of new information that I also don't know because it's new.
03:01:35.000And the body of the stuff that I don't know yet that's been around forever is...