John Anthony West is an Egyptologist, genius, and doesn t know too much about Ustream. He's a very limited genius. And he's also a mad scientist. And that's exactly what John has in common with the rest of us: he's an Egyptianologist. And in this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, we talk to John about his love of the ancient world and his obsession with the mysteries of the Sphinx. And we talk about how he became fascinated with the dating mysteries of The Dating Game, and how he came to be the man he is today. And how he's more than just a Mad Scientist, he's a man of many talents, and that's why he's one of my favorite people in the entire world. Use the code "ROGAN" at checkout to save 10% on the Fleshlight. The Fleshlight is the number one sex toy for men, and it's the best sex toy I've ever had. Save yourself 15% with code ROGAN and get 10% off your first purchase! You'll also get 20% off the next Fleshlight purchase when you enter the code: JOERogan at checkout. It's the most affordable sex toy in the world, and the only sex toy you can get without a credit card, and you'll get an ad-free version of the most popular sex toy on the market. You won't want to miss it! . Joe Rogans Experience is a podcast by the world's biggest podcaster and podcaster, and he's favorite podcaster. . . . and he does it all in one place. Just paypal.me/joeoganexperience and get 15% off of your first week of the entire month of the month, plus an additional $5 off your membership when you buy a copy of the book, and get an extra $5 or more when you sign up for the next month and receive an ad discount when you redeem your first month, you get $10% discount, plus a FREE shipping offer, and a free shipping offer when you use the code name "JOEJOGAN at checkout, and they also get the deal starts on the first month they receive $10,000 and receive $5,000 in the second month. Joespires is the best podcaster in the US, and gets an ad free version of The Joesophian Experience. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, and I really appreciate it.
00:00:24.000The Joe Rogan Experience podcast is brought to you by The Fleshlight.
00:00:27.000If you go to JoeRogan.net, click on the link for The Fleshlight and enter in the code name ROGAN. You will save yourself 15% off the number one sex toy for men.
00:01:34.000So, sir, if you see the lower right-hand corner of the video, where under the words Joe Rogan Experience, the lower right-hand corner is like a little volume icon.
00:01:41.000If you just kill that, that should fix everything.
00:01:46.000lower right hand corner of the window the video window there's a thing that literally circle thing and then there's like the other there's like uh...
00:01:59.000there should be a volume button Yes, the far left.
00:03:22.000This, ladies and gentlemen, is a very, very special edition of the Joe Rogan Experience.
00:03:27.000First of all, because it is the first one we've ever done through Skype, and two, because it is with one of my personal heroes that I'm honored to get to talk to, a man named John Anthony West.
00:03:59.000And folks who aren't seeing online, if you're listening to this only on iTunes, John has an office that is exactly what I would hope and pray his office would look like.
00:04:10.000Just filled with documents and information and books.
00:04:26.000I first was turned on to your work by the NBC special on the Sphinx that was hosted by Charlton Heston, which was a very controversial thing that NBC aired, right?
00:04:41.000And it was a special on the mysteries of the dating of the Sphinx.
00:04:45.000I became absolutely fascinated by the compelling evidence that you and Dr. Shock presented to all these traditional Egyptologists that The rain erosion on the Sphinx enclosure had to have come from literally 7,000 or 8,000 years earlier than they were dating the Sphinx.
00:05:07.000Yeah, probably more than that, Joe, and we'll get into that if we want to discuss it further.
00:05:12.000But that was the most conservative date that Schock, as a bona fide A PhD geologist, he's sort of constrained to take the most conservative view, but he even had doubts about it when he was saying it,
00:05:28.000but now he's loosening up by a lot and is basically on the same card as me, in other words, holding open the possibility that it may be as old as Actually, it's 36,000 BC or even older.
00:05:44.000And the reason for that is not fantasizing or anything of the sort.
00:05:48.000It's that the Egyptians themselves, in several, one in a tablet, a stela, called the Palermo stone, because, not because it has anything to do with Palermo, but because that's where it is.
00:06:02.000And another papyrus, very fragmentary, called the Turin papyrus, where the Egyptians themselves, the ancient Egyptians, Talk about long periods prior to the beginning of what we call dynastic Egypt, what they just called Egypt, that begins around 3500 BC,
00:06:19.000where Egypt is ruled for thousands and thousands and thousands of years by the Necheru, which means the gods themselves, which actually means, I take to mean, Enlightened or divinely enlightened human beings and then another long long period where Egypt is ruled by the Shem Suhor which means the companions or the followers of Horus and the regnal that the names of these kings are given and the regnal dates of these kings are given and though both the stone is damaged and the papyrus is
00:06:49.000somewhat fragmentary if you compute the years you end up with something like 36,000 BC which in fact is not It's not a casually chosen date because the Sphinx itself,
00:07:05.000as you know, it has an actually, as we go along, somewhere along the line, we'll have to talk about this, because I can send you all kinds of interesting pics, you know, illustrations, where maybe you can, on your end, intersperse them, them into the actual video on podcast I guess you call it so that viewers can see what we're talking about as we're talking about it anyway you do that great yeah no we can
00:07:33.000we can definitely do that but for the audio only people this is a fascinating conversation either way with or without pictures How did you get on this path?
00:07:47.000The reason why the 36,000th date is not as outrageous as it might sound is, A, because the Egyptians themselves are talking about that sort of date, and also because the Sphinx, with its lion's body and human head, screams out as an astronomical astrological marker.
00:08:06.000And it's meant to commemorate the age of Leo.
00:08:10.000The last age of Leo is where the Sphinx and The relationship is that the Sphinx is sighted so that it looks due east.
00:08:19.000And so the last time the Sphinx looked at its own image in the sky before the sun rose.
00:08:25.000That's how they talk about the processional ages.
00:08:30.000It's not complex astronomy, but it's astronomy.
00:08:33.000Anyway, the last time the Sphinx looked at its own image in the sky at sunrise on the spring equinox would have been about 10,000, 10,500 BC. But there are good reasons why 10,500 BC is not satisfactory,
00:08:49.000and the age before that, the age of Leo before that, is another 26,000 years earlier, because the cycle, the so-called procession of the Eponarch cycle, takes roughly 26,000 years.
00:09:05.000So 36,000 years would have been another time when the Sphinx looked at its own image in the sky, At the spring equinox.
00:09:50.000Chuck and I are writing a book, and I'll tell you more about this as we go along, telling the story of this whole Sphinx thing, because we presented, and this is a geological argument, It's about the water weathering to the Sphinx, or the weathering to the Sphinx, with Chuck as a geologist and a specialist in these things.
00:10:09.000It took a lot to get him on board, mind you.
00:10:11.000This is a long, it's a big, long, funny story.
00:10:14.000I won't get into necessarily right now here, though, since we have an open-ended show and I have plenty of vodka in the freezer.
00:11:46.000And it won me an Emmy and it was nominated for Best Documentary of that year, etc., etc., etc.
00:11:53.000So it was that that brought it to the...
00:11:55.000that forced the Crackademics to pay attention to it.
00:11:58.000And the battle has been going on ever since.
00:12:02.000And actually, funny story, because I can say it here, but normally I can't on a normal, respectable show.
00:12:11.000If you'll appreciate it, I've watched a couple of your shows, so I know I can get away with it here.
00:12:17.000And when we gave this presentation initially in 1991, The geologists were unanimously in favor of it.
00:12:27.000They came to our presentation, and they walked past our display, and they said, yeah, you know, I mean, how could anybody have missed this?
00:12:34.000Well, that's another bit of the story.
00:12:37.000But the Egyptologists and the archaeologists were absolutely incensed by the whole thing, and they were calling us all kinds of names, and there was one woman who I I'll go nameless here, but she'll be coming up in the book somewhere soon.
00:12:53.000Who is an Egyptologist at Boston University where Shock teaches.
00:12:58.000And, oh yeah, and earlier, so we were being interviewed, Shock and myself, by the World Press, really.
00:13:09.000And at one point we were being interviewed by the guy who was the science editor Of the Boston Globe, and Schach teaches in Boston, so he was a hometown boy.
00:13:20.000And so Schach gave his interview, and Schach is, we're a good duo.
00:13:25.000It's not exactly good cop, bad cop, but, you know, Schach is always civil, and always professional, and always polite, really, even when he shouldn't be.
00:13:37.000And I don't have to worry about these things.
00:13:45.000David Chandler was science editor of the book.
00:13:48.000We should explain, before we go any further, we should explain the argument for people that don't understand it.
00:13:52.000The water erosion argument, this is what people are trying to ignore.
00:13:58.000There's people that are still arguing that somehow or another that could have been created by sand and wind, and that this erosion...
00:14:09.000According to most geologists, that's not the case.
00:14:12.000Most geologists are stating that it had to be water, correctly?
00:14:15.000That's correct, but now they've actually gone off the sand and wind thing, and now it's supposed to be what's called salt crystallization, in which water soaks through the limestone and creates What's it called?
00:14:58.000This is not just a scholarly quibble, because for the Sphinx to be water-weathered, and specifically by rainwater, means that it has to have been there when there was rain in Egypt.
00:15:09.000You see, there's almost no rain there now, an inch or so a year.
00:15:12.000The Sahara Desert formed around 10,000 BC. Before that, it was fertile savannah, sort of like modern-day Kenya, maybe even wetter than that.
00:15:22.000So for the Sphinx to be weathered by rainwater, It means that it has to have been there before or during the time that lots and lots of rain was falling.
00:15:35.000You were saying before that civilization, according to the standard scenario, civilization begins around 3,000-3,500 BC, more or less simultaneously in Egypt, in Sumeria, in China, in India, but all of it is around that date.
00:15:53.000But the Sphinx, you see, is really the most spectacular sculpture on Earth.
00:15:57.000It's 240 feet long and 66 feet high, and it's a magnificent, absolutely breathtaking sculpture, even in ruins.
00:16:05.000And the temples around it, which we'll get into somewhere along the line, but ideally I'll send you pictures of it.
00:16:14.000The temples around them are powerful stone Limestone buildings faced with granite, but what's interesting about them is not the size of the temples themselves.
00:16:26.000By Egyptian standards, they're not all that big.
00:16:29.000But the stones that comprise them weigh somewhere between 50 and 150 tons each.
00:16:37.000And they're set up in such a way they're slotted into places like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
00:16:44.000If you saw the old Charlton Heston video, which evidently you've seen, we have this guy, Jesse Warren, who's the project manager of a Where they're building a cogeneration plant out in Long Island, and he's acknowledging, he's fascinated by this, because he says, yeah, our biggest cranes, our biggest land-based cranes could lift these rocks, but we wouldn't know how to rig them so that we could get them into place.
00:17:11.000So what this means is that, not just that the Sphinx, this fabulous statue, is much, much older.
00:17:18.000It is built before there's supposed to be any civilization at all, but It means that there's a technology in place that we, with our brilliant science that, you know, produce hydrogen bombs and bobblehead dolls and nerve gas and all of these wonderful new developments, we couldn't build the temples around the Sphinx.
00:17:36.000So, that's why they're all so incensed.
00:17:38.000Absolutely, the whole idea is that if this is finally acknowledged, it means that everything, but everything that these people have believed about ancient About the onset of human civilization is completely dead wrong.
00:17:57.000So that's why they're as angry as they are.
00:18:00.000An Air Force friend of mine said, good line, that the flak is always heaviest when you're right over the target.
00:18:08.000You know, one of the things I learned from watching your documentary is I really thought that scientists and people that were studying the history of something as important as Egypt, that they would be...
00:18:29.000Anyway, you would think that these people would be scientific in their approach to evidence.
00:18:33.000When you guys presented this evidence that there was massive amounts of water erosion, one of the things the guy said that really disturbed me is like, you're talking about a civilization from 10,500 years.
00:18:45.000he was saying, where's the evidence of this civilization?
00:18:47.000What other evidence do you have of this civilization?
00:18:51.000And the way he's saying it is so ridiculous and arrogant, and it was so soaked in ego, because the reality is we don't really know how much evidence there would be left from 10,500 B.C.
00:19:06.000That is a long, long, long time ago, and it might very well be that the only things that remain are things like the Sphinx and the Sphinx enclosure.
00:19:15.000Well, there's a good reason for that too.
00:19:18.000Actually, Shank and I are about to set off on a new book between us called Dancing Down the Bridge of Sirah.
00:19:25.000And then the subtitle is a scholar and a scientist fend off the unicorns and take on the paradigm, please.
00:19:33.000Because the bridge of Sirah is a Sufi image.
00:19:45.000In order to get to the truth, in order to get to enlightenment, let's say the seeker must cross the bridge of Sara, which is described as Narrow as a razor's edge.
00:19:59.000And on one side is the chasm of credulity.
00:20:03.000And on the other side is the abyss of skepticism.
00:20:07.000So, to do this stuff, you really have to have...
00:20:37.000Well, exactly, but I mean, in a way, I have...
00:20:41.000A little bit of sympathy for them even because they've put in all of these years and here's somebody who comes from absolutely out of left field, me, and Schott, who doesn't come out of left field, who's one of them, a PhD geologist and highly respected and with a number of geological, you know, solid scientific books published who say you guys have it all wrong.
00:21:03.000Well, explain to folks what your background is and why you're such a rebel in this field.
00:21:38.000And I always recount an anecdote that, you know, it's funny, when I was a kid, I read this long before I was even interested in this stuff, but it was a teaching tale Supposedly a true one, that this was the 1940s Reader's Digest,
00:21:56.000and there was an anecdote in there that when Yasha Heifetz, the great violinist, gave his debut at Carnegie Hall at the age of 11, I think this must have been 44 or 43, something like that when I was a kid.
00:22:13.000At the concert was the then reigning violin virtuoso, a guy named Misha Elman, who you don't hear much of these days, but he was sort of the Pinker Zuckerman of today.
00:22:26.000And with him was Artur Rubenstein, the great pianist.
00:22:30.000And about halfway through the concert, Elman turned to Rubenstein and he said, hot in here, isn't it?
00:22:40.000And Rubenstein said, not for pianists.
00:22:44.000So, with our science, the geologists have no problem with it, or the microbiologists, or the astrophysicists, but for the Egyptologists and the archaeologists, it's hot!
00:22:59.000I mean, you guys have presented this evidence, they've tried to ignore it, but more things pop up that show that we might be wrong about the history of humanity, like Gobekli Tepe.
00:23:15.000And you see, we have even more evidence than was in that video we presented.
00:23:20.000There's a lot more evidence just from Egypt that we presented at another GSA conference in 2000. Again, with the almost unanimous Ascent of the attending geologists, but that one unfortunately didn't have much press there, so it didn't get a lot of press.
00:23:36.000The geologists were impressed, but it didn't go anywhere.
00:23:41.000But we now have, and we've had for a while, all of the evidence at our disposal, but Gobekli Tepe, which you mentioned, and I don't know how many of your audience will know about that, that's serious, that's the smoking gun, because here's this incredible site In Turkey, and Chuck and I have visited there and spent about a week there.
00:24:00.000That was discovered in 1994, and I hope we'll get the pictures of this up there.
00:24:05.000But it was discovered in 1994, absolutely by accident.
00:24:44.000And then finally they called in the archaeologists, which now they're sorry about because the archaeologists commandeered the site.
00:24:54.000They're fighting the Turkish government to get some kind of financial redress from stealing their hill.
00:25:01.000Anyway, once they got excavating, they discovered that this is one of the greatest archaeological discoveries probably of all time.
00:25:14.000I mean, from a historical point of view, it's even more significant than, let's say, Tutankhamun's treasure because Once they dug up the first of these and they found and they did ground-penetrating radar and maybe seismographs, I'm not sure, but certainly radar.
00:25:31.000And this huge hill has at least 22 closely packed stone circles like mini stone hinges, but not so many.
00:25:43.000The central columns, there are central columns, two central columns in each of these stone circles and then ringed around with other stones.
00:25:52.000I mean, everybody People listening to this or watching this will have an image of Stonehenge in their heads.
00:25:59.000So it's like that, except not as massive.
00:26:04.000But then further as they were digging, they realized that this entire hill, which had been at one point or another exposed to the elements, of course, had been deliberately filled in.
00:26:20.000I mean, this is a lot, this is acres of land, and the thing had been completely covered, and they were able to date the fill, because the fill has all kinds of organic material in it.
00:26:30.000And so the fill they dated to 8000 BC. And that means that the Gobekli Tepe itself, this incredible site, nobody knows what it's there for, or who did it, or anything, is at least 10,000 BC. And those central columns that I was talking about, These are 10 to 15 tons.
00:26:49.000They know that, I think they're limestone, but the stones come from a quarry about three quarters of a mile downhill, so they have to drag these up.
00:26:57.000Now we're talking 10,000 B.C. There's not supposed to be any civilization, much less tools or anything of that sort.
00:27:04.000So here are these, and there are 22 of these stone circles.
00:27:07.000Only four have been partially excavated.
00:27:15.000I said only four out of 22 have been excavated?
00:27:18.000All this time, archaeology is unbelievably, if it's done meticulously, and nowadays it tends to be, not so long ago it was just grave robbery, but now it's really meticulous.
00:27:30.000They're going at this stuff with teaspoons, so it takes them years and years and years to do it, and I guess there isn't a gigantic amount of funding available.
00:28:01.000Apart from the size of these stones and the finesse that goes into creating them, they're also elaborately decorated and they're high relief.
00:28:54.000I mean, we've been looking at this For a long time we've found all kinds of evidence and some of it, a lot of the evidence is really commanding but it's not spectacular looking.
00:29:32.000Actually, in my first non-fiction book, I don't know if you know this, I started out as a novelist, playwright, screenwriter, and, you know, I had a lot of things done.
00:29:41.000It never made me money, which is probably a good thing for Egyptology.
00:29:48.000I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but the first book was called The Case for Astrology, which is out of print now, which put together all of the scientific evidence that says there's actually something behind it.
00:29:59.000It's not just what's a good day to buy a poodle.
00:30:04.000In that book, as I said, my first nonfiction book, but I quote a wonderful ethnologist, Conrad Lawrence, who was brought up in South Africa.
00:30:17.000He wrote a wonderful book, it's probably still around, Bushmen of the Kalahari, about his own experience.
00:30:23.000And he relates how the Bushmen of South Africa, the missionaries are trying to teach them how to farm, And the Bushman looks at him and he says, why should we farm when there were so many mongo-mongo nuts in the world?
00:30:38.000Why would anybody in their right mind bother to plow the land and cut everything down when you can go outside your door and fish and hunt all that?
00:30:48.000So just because they were hunter-gatherers doesn't mean they hadn't figured out amazing constructions, the ability to make these huge cities and these just...
00:32:07.000I mean, these are two impeccable historians of science at MIT, Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Decken, and the book is, I think, published.
00:32:18.000In 1968. But again, this is the thing you have to go through when you're dealing with these heretical things.
00:32:25.000I mean, these were guys with all of the right credentials, not like me.
00:32:28.000I mean, I come from out of left field.
00:32:30.000And they managed to stonewall them and try to ignore their evidence that underlying The world's mythology, all of these strange stories of incestuous gods and all of this kind of thing, was astronomy.
00:32:47.000And astronomy presupposes that Santayana and Van Decken didn't go into that.
00:32:54.000Much, because they were in enough hot water as it was, but there is absolutely no point to a sophisticated astronomy unless there's an astrology behind it, at least in the old days.
00:33:05.000Nowadays they're busy looking for quasars and black holes and all of that sort of thing, which have no meaning, at least, let's say, at least in the emotional and philosophical sense.
00:33:16.000But in the old days, whole civilizations, Egypt included, were Attuned to the motions of the stars.
00:33:25.000In other words, there's a lot of literature on this.
00:33:28.000Why do you think that this culture that we live in right now is so reluctant to accept anything like astrology?
00:33:37.000Why do you think they would like to dismiss it so quickly?
00:33:40.000Well, because this is a materialistic, this is a materialist culture That denies anything that has any meaning.
00:33:49.000I mean, materialism, which is the reigning philosophy, this is what everybody learns in school.
00:33:56.000You certainly get nothing esoteric out of school, nothing mystical.
00:34:01.000And unfortunately, the skeptics are basically rationalism, materialism, atheism basically, is It's basically the religion of the emotionally defective and spiritually dyslexic.
00:34:23.000And in contemporary materialistic science, Value does not exist.
00:34:30.000In other words, value is, by definition, subjected.
00:34:35.000So, these people are determined, because they can't find any meaning in their own lives, in their own existence, to foist that emptiness, that nihilism, upon everyone else, but they call it rationalism or reason.
00:34:54.000It just seems to reason that our bodies are affected by the moons and the tides and women's periods are and, you know, people behave differently during different moon cycles.
00:35:05.000The oceans, they're affected by the tides.
00:35:26.000We don't know, but what we can say is that if going back into the Paleolithic, now we're talking, we think actually those figures, Chuck and I think, that the figures in the Paleolithic, in the In Gobekli Tepe are probably cosmological and astronomical.
00:35:49.000However, De Santillane and Van Deccan do a very good job of showing that astronomy underpins the most ancient mythologies that we have.
00:36:03.000And since these guys, since the ancients are not just interested in quasars and pulsars and all of these sorts of things, it presupposes in astrology And in fact, in Egypt, and Egypt is the one society that I know the most about,
00:36:19.000but the same, I'm sure, applies to ancient China and India and Mayans and so on, that the entire society is orchestrated in such a way that it is attuned to these cosmic cycles.
00:36:35.000And we still have, you know, there's a reason why Christmas is the day that it is, and there's a reason why Easter is the day that it is.
00:36:43.000It's supposed to commemorate historically certain elements in the life of Jesus Christ, but actually it's much older than that, and the ancient societies knew what they were doing.
00:37:01.000I mean, when you get deep into Egypt, you see that life itself was a kind of a magical...
00:37:12.000Recreation of the genesis of the universe in which by Celebrating it in certain ways, in certain kinds of ceremonies and so on, human beings are reliving the cosmic process and thereby accessing the divinity that is responsible for us being here, which is not creationism.
00:37:34.000You see, any time we try to say to a rationalist scientist that, hey, there really is a meaningful life, that, oh, you're a creationist.
00:37:41.000Do you think the world was created in seven days?
00:37:43.000No, it doesn't mean that You know, God with a big white beard was up there in the sky saying, well today I think I'll create mosquitoes.
00:37:52.000It's a much more profound philosophy, but it is not Amenable to study by a materialist science, but who said materialist science is the be-all and end-all and the answer to everything?
00:38:10.000Only the materialists say that, but they've got everybody, including the people who put the educational system together, conned into believing that their science is the only science.
00:38:21.000The ancients knew much better and they did much better.
00:38:25.000I mean, all you have to do is go to Egypt to experience these unbelievable temples and this fabulous art to understand that something is going on that isn't going on now.
00:38:53.000And in the video, the big follow-up to the Mystery of the Sphinx, that we're hoping to put together the funding for, which we hope to do as a theatrical release, not just on television and so on, but, you know, to get it out in the theaters first and then onto the videos and theaters and TV and all that sort of stuff.
00:39:14.000You have to have like an animated dog or something to go with you to Egypt.
00:39:19.000If you want to get it in the theaters, to get people to really get interested in the history of the Sphinx and all that stuff, that's going to be difficult to get in the theater.
00:39:46.000But he was an interesting guy, and without him, without him, it never would have happened, because he had the energy, and I mean, me, I can think, but I don't...
00:39:56.000I'm not a manifester, and he got the whole thing going, so I don't begrudge him.
00:40:00.000Maybe if you had a penguin, a penguin that travels to Egypt, and you get Morgan Freeman to narrate it.
00:40:49.000There are these, I don't know if you've seen this, Shrok-Chak is very fascinated by Easter Island, which may be connected with these things.
00:40:57.000You know the Moai of Easter Island, right?
00:41:00.000Did you know that up until quite recently, it looks like they're just kind of these Big figures, their heads basically, heads and torsos, right?
00:41:10.000I can't imagine why it took them 100 years to 200 years to figure it out.
00:41:15.000They started excavating these things and they're finding that they're full-length statues.
00:41:21.000So in other words, they have built up around them Maybe 25 feet, 30 feet of silt.
00:41:29.000And now, the question is, and this should be relatively easy to determine, this is part of our big project, we're calling it Zeptepe and the Dawn of Civilization, the follow-up, The Mystery of the Sphinx, because it should be possible to carbon date the lower layers of the fill.
00:41:46.000And our conviction is that these things may date back Again, thousands and thousands and thousands of years.
00:42:42.000and he sends out this enormously comprehensive list of everything that's interesting happening in science that either directly or tangentially affects this whole lost civilization hypothesis.
00:43:08.000It looks like, you know, if you took the Star Wars spaceship Millennium Falcon and put it in the bottom of the ocean, that's what it looks like.
00:43:16.000They don't know what it is, but they're sending divers down, like, I believe it's this week.
00:43:35.000We are convinced, Graham thinks otherwise, but we are Shaq and myself convinced that this amazing looking place is in fact perfectly natural.
00:44:26.000Did you do any diving yourself at Yanaguni?
00:44:29.000Yeah, yeah, we were there for a week and Chuck's been there a couple of times.
00:44:33.000As I said, it's in our own interest to see this as the evidence we're looking for, but we don't think it is, and we think Graham is making a big mistake and insisting that it is.
00:44:52.000Because the people who are taking the pictures initially, they're not trying to fool anyone, they're just taking the cool, exciting-looking pictures.
00:44:59.000But if you follow some of those ridges that look so perfectly vertical and so perfectly horizontal, you see them just kind of taper in to disappear into the living rock face.
00:45:09.000And when you get really down there and you get your nose to the rock, you see that the The corners aren't finished.
00:45:16.000You see that the rocks have been wrenched out of their place.
00:45:21.000It's a place that's dangerous diving there.
00:45:28.000And, I mean, I have a master diver glued to me.
00:45:35.000But when you go down the shore, I mean, Shaka and I went there and this very nice Japanese billionaire financed the whole thing, who was really interested in it.
00:45:46.000And we needed to do it to be wet blankets.
00:45:51.000But on the last day that we were there, we went looking around the island and we were looking at other stuff and we went to a place about a couple of miles from the actual Yonaguni site and there, at the water's edge, and you see it's a certain kind of shale, it's a very hard shale formation.
00:46:10.000That is laid down in very regular horizontals, but that is cross-cut by fault lines.
00:46:22.000And it's like if you imagine a gigantic stone layer cake that's already cut into pieces, but the pieces haven't been served.
00:46:30.000And so what happens Is that by the action of the wind and the waves because this other formation, the similar formation, was right at the water's edge and you could watch the waves pounding up against it and the current running and what would happen is that eventually the water,
00:46:47.000the running water and the waves and tides and who knows, typhoons and all the rest, Sort of work into the fault lines, which are softer rock, and eventually they get it to the point that the action of the waves pulls away a big chunk of rock, which is all set down in layers, so that falls into the water.
00:47:11.000And again, we're talking about thousands and thousands of years, gradually the whole piece of rock disappears because it's all laid down in these kind of layer cake levels.
00:47:24.000And so when we saw this, because we had our own misgivings over the course of the week, it was the last thing in the world we wanted to...
00:47:33.000Right, you would be happier if you believed that it was an ancient civilization.
00:47:39.000I was going to write it up for the National Geographic or Smithsonian or something like that, and Chuck was going to write it up for the geological journals and all of that sort of stuff.
00:48:03.000Again, we're convinced that there's no context for anything there, and things that are man-made have a context.
00:48:14.000And as I said, when we saw, we would still be uncertain about it if we did not go a couple of miles down and watch a similar sort of thing being formed right in front of our eyes.
00:48:27.000And when we go back there, when we do this, our next, this next film, Zef Tevye, Yonaguni will be one of our One of our sites, assuming we can get the funding together, that we will be concentrating upon, because it's an object lesson, both in how careful you have to be when you're looking...
00:48:54.000And, as I said, we have to give up on this.
00:48:58.000I had a moment, a slight pang, not much, because I don't really like the quackademics, but we had a slight pang of compassion for them when somebody comes along and destroys their paradigm, which is us.
00:49:24.000They found a bracelet somewhere in Turkey.
00:49:29.000Turkey is turning out to be more and more interesting.
00:49:31.000There are all kinds of great places in Turkey.
00:49:37.000It's a round bracelet made of obsidian.
00:49:42.000Obsidian is an incredibly hard stone and very difficult to work.
00:49:46.000I'm not exactly sure how they dated it.
00:49:49.000Where it was found, you know, the strata where it was found.
00:49:54.000They dated it to around 8000 BC, but it's very elegant.
00:50:00.000It didn't look like that much, it's just elegant and beautiful.
00:50:04.000And the archaeologists realized when they studied it that the finish on it was something that nowadays you could only do with the most sophisticated Um, instruments, lasers or something of the sort, and moreover, that it had a very complex and subtle geometrical shape.
00:50:26.000So in other words, you can't do a thing like that, or it's very hard to imagine doing something of that nature.
00:50:33.000That's really rigorously geometrical without having the geometry at your fingertips.
00:50:38.000So you'd have to have some sort of a computer, a machine.
00:50:42.000You have to have something that you built to construct this, right?
00:50:59.000I forget what kind of an engineer he is, but he's the guy who designs the instruments, the really precise instruments that do things like make pieces for the space shuttle and stuff.
00:51:13.000They're instruments that calibrate it to ten thousandths or hundred thousandths of an inch.
00:51:18.000And he's done studies in Egypt and finds That's what you see all over the place, that there are monstrous pieces of granite.
00:51:28.000He's been on a couple of trips with me, he's a good guy.
00:51:31.000And he has his fine special instruments that are calibrated to a ten thousands of an inch.
00:51:38.000And he places this on a piece of granite, Old Kingdom granite.
00:51:45.000And the granite is 100% completely true.
00:51:50.000You know, is fairly adamant that in order to do this, they had to have had some sort of technology that would allow them to do that.
00:52:02.000Chuck and I are not so sure because technology is technology.
00:52:08.000Unless they have some miraculous form of technology that we can't even imagine, because you would have expected, particularly in a place like Egypt, where you have so much from the past, that somewhere along the line you'd have some evidence of this kind of technology, and you don't.
00:52:25.000You mean, by saying technology, you mean something that cuts, like a machine, something that can cut the marble and polish it down to be 100% flat?
00:52:39.000What is the conventional, what do conventional Egyptologists, how do they say they built it?
00:52:44.000They don't even, they don't address the question.
00:52:47.000I mean, since there is no, since there is no, um, There is no evidence for that technology, they just assume that they did it by hand somehow or another, and maybe they did, but when you realize the level of perfection of these things and how impossible it would be today to do them by hand,
00:53:09.000I mean, they just say, oh, well, in those days everybody had lots of time and time was not of any concern, so they could work on it until they got it right.
00:53:17.000Well, that's a sort of a fudge, but on the other hand, you can't Legitimately postulate an advanced technology when you don't have any evidence for it.
00:54:24.000Some of the most spectacular stuff comes from the earliest periods.
00:54:28.000In fact, right now, there's a terrific show in the Metropolitan Museum of Art called, I think, The Dawn of Egyptian Art, and it's all the pre-dynastic work, 4,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 BC, and they're collected.
00:54:50.000As they do a retrospective, they get bits from here and bits from there and so on.
00:54:54.000So they put together this really fabulous show because normally you don't see much pre-dynastic art together in one place.
00:55:02.000And when you look carefully and you see what's going on and you know what you're looking at, I mean, if it were somebody who's not spent 30 years studying Egypt, you know, they'd be really impressive bits and pieces.
00:55:17.000They're mostly quite small, but If you have an eye for this and you've done a lot of study and asked a lot of questions, you see how spectacularly beautiful these things are.
00:55:27.000Show's on till August, so anybody in the neighborhood, make sure you get to the Met.
00:55:32.000Hasn't had an awful lot of press, but it's a terrific show.
00:55:36.000So, you guys want to put a date of the civilization of Egypt to somewhere around 30,000 BC. That's your idea, right?
00:56:41.000So, and the other civilizations, you see, Egypt has this physically unique We're in a situation where things don't weather away.
00:56:53.000I mean, once they get covered up with sand, they're just there.
00:56:56.000And plus the fact that, you know, in the old days this was a kind of blessed civilization in which you hardly had to do any work to get fed.
00:57:04.000The Nile would flood and you planted some seeds and they grew up.
00:57:08.000When the flood season came again, we had a fairly populous There was a substantial population there with nothing to do.
00:57:18.000No television, no American Idol, nothing to do all day long or all night long.
00:57:23.000And so they, you know, the whole, the entire society was put to work building these fabulous temples and monuments and doing the artwork and so on.
00:57:37.000So the other places, I mean, I'm pretty well convinced because the doctrine All of this work in the last decade or so, proving that the cosmology, in other words, the sophisticated understanding of life and significance of life and the geometry and the astronomy and so on, was all there universally.
00:58:00.000India and China and the other places just didn't have the physical capacity To build on that scale, or maybe they just plain didn't do it anyway, they had other ways of manifesting this kind of, let's say, this kind of understanding.
00:58:19.000And this is another thing that is just not even taken into consideration by the Crackademics.
00:58:24.000You don't need sacred architecture, you know, magnificent sacred architecture to express Spirituality.
00:58:35.000You could have a society, and there probably are some, that express their, let's say, their spiritual longings only in dance.
00:58:47.000And at the end you would have no evidence even of the society.
00:59:38.000But when you see, that's one of the eye-openers of this very interesting dawn of civilization.
00:59:47.000Exhibit at the Met because, I mean, you don't have temples and you don't have big buildings, but you have very many instances of very sophisticated sculpture done with very hard stones.
01:00:07.000And as I said earlier, you've got Gobekli Tepe.
01:00:10.000There's no argument about Gobekli Tepe.
01:00:12.000If the Moai of Easter Island turn out to be ancient, well, Then they are.
01:00:19.000I mean, if you can date, and it's sort of amazing that they haven't done it, or maybe they haven't, I don't know about it, but if you can show that the earliest levels of fill that have buried them up to their chests goes back to, let's say, go back to Itepi time, well, then you've got another instance of spectacular artwork At a time when there's not supposed to be such a thing.
01:00:47.000I mean, the whole thing is in the process of being turned upside down, ideally by us.
01:00:53.000It's an incredibly fascinating subject and one that drives me crazy.
01:00:59.000The timeline is such a fascinating thing.
01:01:06.000How did it get so incredibly sophisticated at one point in time, ancient Egypt, and then somehow or another all that stuff was lost?
01:01:15.000You know, somehow or another through the burning of the Library of Alexandria and the Romans and the Greeks and everything throughout history up until today, so much information has been lost.
01:01:24.000Is there a natural disaster in the middle of there somewhere?
01:01:28.000Did something happen to the human race where it wiped out a significant number of us and then we had to re-figure things out?
01:01:44.000Further back than that, for example, you see when you're dealing with Crackademia, they're very resistant to interpreting their own data in any way that disagrees with their preconceptions, but you're familiar for sure with the Paleolithic caves, right?
01:02:24.000And this was discovered, it's named after the guy who discovered it.
01:02:30.000And this is, up until now, The most spectacular of the caves was the one at Lascaux with the famous Hall of Bulls and the other one at a place called Altamira, which again is a very high level of artwork.
01:02:47.000Both of those caves are dated to around 17,000-18,000 BC on the basis of evidence in the caves.
01:02:57.000Well, Chauvet has the most spectacular art of all.
01:03:00.000I mean, it's as though it were drawn by a whole bunch of paleo Picassos.
01:04:22.000Well, Schalke and I think that Because he'd been a very good guy.
01:04:28.000I haven't been in touch with him forever, for a long time.
01:04:32.000He was at a conference that we did named Frank Edge, who interpreted the Hall of Bulls at Lascaux as an astronomical Basically, having astronomical significance of dots and daubs on the wall that represented the Pleiades and other constellations.
01:05:10.000Way or another, a star map or have some sort of cosmological significance.
01:05:15.000There's a book, for example, by a French member of the Academy, actually, called Jean Richet, called The Sacred Geography of Ancient Greece.
01:05:27.000There's another one by amateurs, in other words, not credentialed, whatever, not that that means anything, called...
01:05:37.000Plato's Secret Iliad, in which they show that the Iliad, which is the most boring book ever written, is actually a gigantic, it's like a planetarium, and all of these, you know, so-and-so is being killed in the war, you know, the heroes are here, and the armies are doing all of this sort of stuff.
01:05:59.000It's a terrible war to read, but if it's decoded as a star map, like a planetarium in action, From about 9000 BC on, the whole thing makes, all of a sudden, vivid sense.
01:06:14.000This is why they're going to all of that trouble to do all of this work.
01:06:24.000It's complicated because the stars, let me see if I remember correctly, the armies They represent constellations.
01:06:32.000The heroes are the particular bright stars in the particular constellation.
01:06:39.000And the Iliad is all about this army is going here and that army is going here and this one is overpowering this one.
01:06:46.000And if you decode it astronomically, it's tracking the constellations across the sky because the relationships of the stars and the constellations to each other change over time.
01:06:57.000As everybody knows, why should they do that?
01:07:04.000As I said, the astronomy, and this is now even getting...
01:07:09.000Even the academics are realizing that astronomy plays this huge role in very ancient civilizations.
01:07:21.000And the only reason, as far as I'm concerned, but I can't prove it, The only reason has to be that it is astrologically significant, because otherwise, who would care?
01:07:35.000DeSantyane and Van Decken go to a lot of trouble to show that very ancient myths, as far back as you go, know about the procession of the equinoxes.
01:07:44.000I was just about to ask you about that.
01:07:51.000Okay, the possession of the equinoxes is because, supposedly because of the wobble of the Earth, but there are other explanations that I like better of the whole solar system that's turning around a binary star.
01:08:07.000The fact is that, let's say if you look the way that this Now we're still in the age, let's say we're in the age of Pisces, which means that if you look at the spring equinox, if you watch,
01:08:23.000wait for the sun to rise, it's rising an hour before the sun rises, you see the sun coming up and the constellation behind The sunrise is the very last degrees of Pisces, and pretty soon it will be Aquarius, so the age of Aquarius.
01:08:44.000I don't know what was it, Air or whatever the musical was.
01:08:48.000Now, very gradually, it's called the precession, the entire zodiac precesses against the The Sun, so in other words, it doesn't go, when you look at astrology, Aries is, you know, is whatever it is, April, March 22nd, and then it goes Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, and so on.
01:09:14.000Precesses means it goes backwards, so it's in Pisces now, and it'll soon be in Aquarius.
01:09:19.000Now, the rate at which that cycle takes canonically, it's actually not exactly that, 25,920 years.
01:09:29.000So, what this means is that for the Sun, To precess one degree takes 72 years.
01:09:37.000Now, how do they figure that out and why should it be important?
01:09:42.000How many people have to be looking at the sky for some reason or another and realize that the Sun takes 72 years to go one degree?
01:09:53.000There was a book that Graham Hancock had discussed once on an interview.
01:09:57.000I wish I could remember the name of it, but it was discussing this number, 72, and that this knowledge of the procession of the equinoxes has been installed in many, many ancient cultures and religions.
01:10:09.000So, exactly it has, and that gets you into number symbolism, and that gets you into sacred geometry.
01:10:15.000So it lets us know that they knew a lot more than we thought they knew just about the universe itself, the constellations themselves, the wobble of the Earth's axis, a 26,000 year cycle.
01:10:26.000They knew about this somehow or another 10, 15,000 years ago.
01:10:34.000And you see, It's this kind of thing that is rigorously excluded from any kind of academic discussions until it's stuffed down their throats.
01:11:01.000Well, it's based on the It's based on the reigns of Khufu, Kheops, Khafra, Kefren, and so on.
01:11:12.000And this is again, this is very complicated because we're, Chuck and myself and my colleagues, think that in all likelihood the pyramids that we see today are Do indeed date from that period.
01:11:30.000However, and this is again formally easily provable, they are built, they are either superimposed or replaced structures that were there earlier.
01:11:43.000And even the academics acknowledge that the Giza Plateau was a single template.
01:11:50.000There's some very interesting work coming up soon proving that that's the case.
01:11:54.000So, whenever the Sphinx was built, There were also structures there.
01:11:58.000We don't know if there were pyramids or not, but in the pyramids, particularly the second pyramid, the Khafra pyramid that's associated with the Sphinx, you can see that there are two different styles, two radically different styles of masonry in it.
01:12:14.000The lower courses are built of these gigantic blocks, the size of practically the size of this room.
01:12:20.000Well, not quite, but anyway, massive, maybe 80, 100 ton blocks.
01:12:26.000And then piled on top of them are the much, and very finely finished, are the much lesser, smaller, cruder masonry that's rather typical of the Old Kingdom.
01:12:40.000Now whenever in architectural history no architectural historian would, an architectural historian knows instantly that when you see two different styles of architecture, In the same building, you know you're looking at two different periods of building.
01:12:58.000I mean, just as a rough example, suppose you have a Victorian house, but you've got a modern kitchen in it.
01:13:04.000A hundred years from now, or 500 years from now, if the archaeologists come and discover that house, they will know in two seconds that the house is built in the 1900s, or the 1800s rather, and the kitchen is built in 2005 or something of that sort.
01:13:21.000So when you see two different, radically different styles of architecture, you know you're dealing with two different periods, two different periods of construction.
01:13:29.000And then there are other factors in this.
01:13:31.000There's a so-called Red Pyramid in Dashur, which is about 20 miles away, where the whole pyramid is built and the interior chambers are in perfect condition, built over a ruinous megalithic chamber that they call A plundered tomb chamber.
01:13:49.000But it's not a plundered tomb chamber because the stones in it have been exposed to the weather for a long, long time.
01:13:55.000It's an earlier megalithic construction.
01:14:27.000The other thing that you guys had shown that I thought was really fascinating was that below ground, when you showed the really ancient constructions, a lot of them were uncovered.
01:15:36.000Well, it looks in better shape for two reasons.
01:15:39.000One, it's a much harder outcrop of stone And B, it's been restored, the headdress and all of that.
01:15:45.000If you look at old photos of the Sphinx, say, taken around 1900 or so, you see that it's really much more weathered than it's looked, but they've repaired the face and so on.
01:15:56.000But, I mean, this has all kinds of repercussions.
01:16:06.000We were doing the video, Mark Lehner, who's the loyal opposition, as it were, in the 80s, because the Sphinx is supposed to look like the Pharaoh Khafra, he doesn't look the least bit like the Pharaoh Khafra, but Lehner did an early computer study,
01:16:22.000back in the 80s when computers were still pretty primitive, in which he fed Khafra data into the computer And then superimposed the results upon the head of the Sphinx and said, voila, the Sphinx is Comfra.
01:16:38.000Well, to us this was sort of silly, but it got a lot of press.
01:16:42.000It was in the New York Times and I think the Smithsonian, all over the place.
01:16:46.000So when we finally got funding together to do our mystery of the Sphinx, we really had to address that because it was well known.
01:16:56.000And people say, well, you know, it's been proved that the Sphinx is the face of Comfra.
01:17:02.000Well, I wanted to actually use exactly the same method that Lehner used, but feed Elvis data into the computer and prove that the Sphinx was really meant to be Elvis.
01:17:46.000Anyway, he came up with the idea, well, let's get a forensic detective to go with us to Egypt to, you know, do a study of these faces and see if they really could be the same modeled upon the same human being.
01:18:00.000And so, a couple phone calls and we got in touch with a guy named Frank Domingo, who is the senior forensic detective from the NYPD. And he came to Egypt with us.
01:18:11.000And this is more a long story about how he got Frank to agree to go.
01:18:15.000And he did his study and showed unquestionably that the two faces could not possibly have been the same.
01:18:23.000And then the question came up because when you look That the profile of the Sphinx, even though it's pretty ruinous because it's been severely damaged, even though it was damaged, it's quite clear that not only is it a different face than that of Kavra, but it's probably a different race.
01:18:42.000In other words, it really looks like A sub-Saharan African face, not even like an Egyptian face.
01:18:48.000Which would mean it was done by the Nubians who took over Egypt.
01:18:51.000Not even the Nubians, earlier, you know, further south.
01:18:55.000Because the Nubians don't look like, don't look the same quite as the sub-Saharan Africans.
01:19:04.000The Egyptian Egyptologists are as prejudiced as everyone else.
01:19:10.000The last thing they want to know is that the Sphinx is an African African.
01:19:17.000But earlier in the 19th century, lots of people just, you know, there was no Egyptology then.
01:19:26.000Lots of travelers, Gustave Flaubert, And Florence Nightingale and all kinds of people who wrote very beautifully about Egypt, traveling in Egypt in the 19th century, said, well, you know, this is a negroid face.
01:19:42.000And the Egyptologists simply ignored that.
01:19:45.000Well, anyway, with Frank, so he did this careful forensic study.
01:20:48.000But anyway, subsequently, I did an op-ed piece for the New York Times.
01:20:54.000And I carefully left out this whole, because this was, you know, we wanted to go back there and do some more work, and I was in enough hot water with the academics to begin with.
01:21:02.000So I didn't mention anything about this sub-Saharan African Sphinx, but a few weeks later the New York Times published a letter from a An orthodontist, a Massachusetts orthodontist.
01:21:15.000An orthodontist is another expert in facial, you know, in faces.
01:21:27.000And now, when we write our book, when we write the shock and I get cracking on the Brids of Syrah, we will go into that and actually interview Track him down.
01:21:42.000The orthodontist who wrote that letter and see what he has to say about it.
01:21:47.000But anyway, that was an interesting thing about the head of the Sphinx, that it's not original to the To the Sphinx, because it's much too small proportionately to the body and it seems to be a sub-Saharan African place.
01:22:05.000We don't know when it was re-carved, but maybe the Sphinx is, as we think, over 30,000 years old and it has to be re-carved in some period of time in between.
01:22:18.000Well, it may be that that's who was living in Egypt at the time.
01:22:25.000You see, when you get back far enough, there's not much left.
01:22:29.000This is why, for example, the Paleolithic caves.
01:22:32.000There were a bunch of caves, but nothing else.
01:22:35.000We didn't know what anybody else was doing.
01:22:37.000Along comes Gobekli Tepe and suddenly the whole...
01:22:40.000everything changes because you've got this extraordinary structure that they date to 10,000 BC. So this comes up and it's very difficult to create A detailed picture of what was going on then.
01:22:55.000Why are they doing work on the Sphinx?
01:22:58.000Why are they like fixing the paws and fixing the ears and fixing the headdress and all the different things that they've done to the Sphinx?
01:23:06.000That seems to me to be very confusing.
01:23:09.000You have this amazing ancient structure and they're building on it to recreate the toes of the lion.
01:23:52.000The repair campaigns, it's not just modern, the earliest repair campaigns, this is another piece to the big puzzle, the earliest repair campaigns are Old Kingdom.
01:24:03.000In other words, the time that the Sphinx was supposedly built, it was already weathered.
01:24:12.000Well, isn't that part of the hieroglyphs involved in, attributed to one particular pharaoh's name, that he fell asleep and he had a dream that if he uncovered the Sphinx, he would control Egypt?
01:24:25.000Which is about 1400 B.C. And in that tablet, that stela, there was, it's subsequently flaked off, the first syllable of Kaphra's name, Kaph.
01:24:49.000What we think is that Kafra was the repairer of the Sphinx, because even, I mean, Mark Lehner, the loyal opposition, notes that when the Sphinx was first repaired, it was already weathered to its present condition.
01:25:04.000And he nevertheless says that, oh well, The Old Kingdom blocks that were repaired were cannibalized from somewhere else.
01:25:13.000It's really a cockamamie explanation, but, you know, when you're playing in their arena and they don't like what the evidence is, they move the goalposts.
01:25:26.000And if that doesn't work, well then they change the rules of the game.
01:25:31.000Is the conventional contention that the Sphinx was carved with that face originally?
01:25:38.000Yeah, even though it's way out of, even though it's way out, even though it's much too small proportionately, and the rest of the Sphinx is spectacularly accurate proportionately.
01:26:36.000It's not really weathered that much, but more than it looks, because if you look at the old photographs, you see the back of the head has been fairly severely weathered, but nothing like the body.
01:27:05.000It's not that they're lying, but only unrest is news.
01:27:11.000So even under the worst of circumstances, when the revolution was going on, I was there for the entire revolution and I refused to leave with the group that I was with.
01:28:23.000See, at the worst in the revolution, they were talking about this, there were a million people protesting in a couple of different cities But if there are a million people protesting, it means that there are 82 million who aren't.
01:28:35.000So all you have to do is not be on Tahrir Square where the protests are going on, which nowadays, with cell phones, is very easy to avoid.
01:30:22.000Oh, no, she is a little bit, but not to the extent...
01:30:25.000I'm a very obsessive person, and when I first watched the documentary that you did with Charlton Heston narrating, I became obsessed with the whole idea of...
01:30:36.000And then I bought Graham Hancock's book, and then it was all downhill.
01:32:13.000But let's talk about the Temple in Man, because that was one of the most fascinating things of that Magical Egypt series, was how the Egyptians, their construction wasn't just beautiful.
01:32:39.000Explain that, because it's really fascinating.
01:32:42.000It's like a tribute to the human anatomy.
01:32:45.000Well, not only is it a tribute to the human anatomy, but it's Schroeder de Lubitsch, the great genius with the unpronounceable name, I mean, names mean a lot.
01:32:58.000For example, Einstein is a great name for a genius.
01:33:26.000Anyway, he realized as he was doing the work on Egypt, on the Temple of Luxor, he had actually, he went to Egypt, he was a very interesting man, died in the early 60s and never met him, and he was a practicing alchemist.
01:33:45.000There were not many of those floating around these days.
01:33:48.000But he went to Egypt because according to the, and I only realized this quite recently, I thought the opposite until quite recently, but You see, the Egyptian tradition percolated down through the West in what are called the Hermetic tradition, which is astrology and magic and number symbolism and Neoplatonism and all bunch of these other disciplines, never coherent as in Egypt.
01:34:16.000And Schwaller went to Egypt in 37 in order to see if, because the The Renaissance scholars, people like Giordano Bruno and Kepler and all of them, were convinced, I mean, they took it on trust, that Egypt was the fount of wisdom.
01:34:35.000The Greeks agreed with that, but nowadays civilization is supposed to have started with the Greeks, but it didn't.
01:34:42.000The Greeks got most of what was consequential or accurate in their own civilization from the Egyptians, and they're very open about it.
01:34:51.000It's the modern-day quackademics that don't want to understand that because very interesting book called Black Athena the Afro-Asiatic Roots of Greek Civilization by a very fine Cornell scholar called Martin Bernal and basically he proves that what we call history is really a white supremacist Eurocentric invention you
01:35:22.000know put together by the mainly by the 19th and early 20th century historians because they were determined to prove that real civilization began with the Greeks because the Greeks were you know swarthy little guys but white enough they weren't Egyptian or Semitic or black or anything like that or sub-Saharan African like the Sphinx certainly not so so really history as it's taught even to this day It's really a white supremacist comm job.
01:35:51.000So it really is possible that sub-Saharan Africans might have built all that stuff?
01:36:42.000But everybody who's listening to this, thank you very much for being patient and...
01:36:48.000And if you're not familiar with this particular subject, it's one of my personal favorites and John's DVD series which is called Magical Egypt which you can still purchase online.
01:39:18.000Yeah, people, if you want to watch the Magical Egypt series, don't watch it on YouTube or watch it on any of those places where it is pirated.
01:40:22.000And actually, on the subject of putting stuff together, I've been talking on any number of occasions about us doing the next video, the Zeptapi, the Dawn of Civilization.
01:40:37.000And actually, I should mention this because I have a non-profit A foundation that we set up about 10 years ago, but called the Ancient Wisdom Foundation.
01:40:53.000But it's been quiescent most of this time.
01:40:56.000You know, people would contribute now and again.
01:40:58.000We'd use it for travel and research and that sort of thing.
01:41:00.000But now I've got a really bright guy who contacted me, a fan of the whole work and fascinated by the whole thing.
01:41:08.000And he's really, he's got the smarts and the drive to put it all together and revivify it.
01:41:14.000So it's now It's now, the website is under construction, but we're now looking to both microfinance and macrofinance this show, and it's funny because it's been an idea of mine for decades, and now it's become a possibility.
01:41:37.000I mean, years ago, see, I haven't devoted my entire life to Egypt and these things because I started out I was a novelist and playwright and screenwriter and had a lot of things done.
01:41:48.000And actually, I think you asked me this earlier and I wandered off from the subject, but as a young kid, how did I get into this?
01:42:26.000I'm trying to resuscitate some of that stuff now.
01:42:29.000But anyway, and then gradually, gradually, gradually, I understood that there was another The human beings were not always insane.
01:42:39.000And one music, the classical music, Beethoven's late quartets and Monteverdi's Vespers of 1610. And then when I was in the army in Germany, needless to say, I didn't list.
01:43:00.000Talking about, yeah, well, that's what it was in those days.
01:43:03.000And I remember Driving as I was driving to France and early, it was in November, all by myself, early in the morning and went to the Cathedral of Chartres.
01:43:18.000I mean, this is before there was any travel to Europe.
01:43:20.000And I realized it was an epiphany that, you know, however monstrous the church was and is, somebody, geniuses, built this incredible structure.
01:43:32.000And then it took another few, I still didn't put it all together, it took another few years before and by this time I had my first short story published and I was living in Spain on the island of Ibiza.
01:43:43.000And gradually, gradually I understood, you know, there was another side to this.
01:43:49.000And then all of a sudden, again, more complicated story, but I got interested in the Gurdjieff work and Ibiza would become all touristed up and I was connected with my first wife, and we moved to England.
01:44:06.000I wanted to get into the Gurdjieff work, and there the first non-fiction book, The Case for Astrology, showed up, and that's how I got into Schwaller.
01:44:15.000So that's about the late 60s when I got interested in, you know, when I really got interested in all of this stuff.
01:44:29.000But I always had this idea because I had brief enough experiences with Hollywood and the film industry and even theatrical side of things that the producers own you and to get anything that's really original done the way that you want it done is next to impossible and I had this idea Of somehow or another micro
01:45:30.000You need to get on Twitter and then get a Kickstarter account.
01:45:33.000But what we're doing, and when I talk about it now, it's not yet a promise because we have to make sure through the lawyers that it's legal.
01:45:43.000We're pretty sure it can be legal, but we have a cool...
01:45:48.000I came up with a really cool incentive offer, which is that if you put in, if you get, if you have a, for a $50 donation, and you can split it, you know, you 10 guys can put in five each and one of them is going to win that.
01:46:02.000But you put in 50 bucks and that buys you a ticket to effectively a raffle.
01:46:10.000And when, when we get up to 50,000, we get up to $50,000, We have a drawing and somebody wins a free trip to Egypt with me.
01:47:59.000And as I said, I came to it, you know, through art, through great sacred music, and through the Cathedral of Chartres, and then suddenly I realized how important this was, and along came Schwaller and all of this study.
01:48:13.000But what Egypt does is that it introduces, and through the symbolist interpretation, which was what Schwaller de Lubitsch put together, otherwise it was just quackademic, Egyptology, you come away angry, actually, because you've experienced this fabulous art.
01:48:32.000And you listen to all this bullshit that they're telling you that has no connection with what you've actually experienced.
01:49:04.000I mean, there's no mistaking about it.
01:49:06.000And so it's, to me, it's very gratifying to be able to be the agency for allowing people to have that experience.
01:49:18.000And unfortunately, I originally I hope to have a little business where there are a handful of people who understand Symbolist Egypt well enough to retransmit it, but actually I'm the only one who does these trips.
01:49:32.000Well, one other person, a very brilliant lady called Normandy Ellis, but even that doesn't have the intellectual rigor that my stuff does.
01:49:41.000So I'm almost the only show in town, but it's very satisfying to me to be able to To be able to open this experience to people.
01:49:53.000And also, invariably, the trips have very interesting people on them with expertise in a number of disciplines that are relevant to Egypt.
01:50:04.000So no trip goes by without me learning a lot myself.
01:50:19.000Physically, it's a lot of work, but I'm in pretty good shape with my age.
01:50:23.000John, I wanted to ask you a question about the more recent idea that perhaps the blocks in the pyramid were not cut from stone, but rather made out of a limestone concrete.
01:51:09.000And when you look at the stones, you see at the blocks, They're what's called a pneumolytic limestone, which has lots of little seashells in it, looking like the shell sign, you know, like cockle shells, and they're all intact.
01:51:23.000So it's a silly theory, but on the surface it doesn't sound, on the surface it sounds as though it might be convincing.
01:51:34.000It was convincing enough so that somebody, a friend of mine, put together a panel of geologists who don't have an axe to grind.
01:51:41.000It's not as though they're It's not as though they're Egyptologists or archaeologists who have a stake in the thing.
01:51:48.000They go there with an open mind to look into it, and Schach certainly does.
01:52:15.000And then, see, the alternative side of the argument is as irresponsible as the academic side because people get notions in their head that it's built by aliens.
01:52:34.000There is unwilling to let go of their fantasies as the academics are unwilling to let go of what are not fantasies but...
01:52:43.000Their timeline, their incorrect timeline.
01:52:45.000...incorrectly developed theories that have been, that are being and have been solidly disproved by people like ourselves.
01:52:57.000Now, John, there's also an issue with the area underneath one of the Sphinx's paws that seismic charting has revealed that there's some sort of a room down there?
01:53:11.000There is some sort of a cavity or chamber.
01:53:16.000I mean, Edgar Cayce, in one of his channeled sessions or trances, whatever you call them, said that there was a chamber beneath This one of the different descriptions of it but basically underneath one of the paws of the Sphinx that contain the secrets of Atlantis.
01:53:35.000Now our seismograph tells us that there is such that there is a cavity there but and this is a question that comes up all the time and they say why can't they excavate well we're The geophysicist who did the work, and the shock was there, but we had a guy named Tom Dobecky, who was a geophysicist, who does the...
01:54:01.000It's like an underground radiologist, you know?
01:54:04.000The seismograph produces a reading that to you or me would be completely meaningless, like an X-ray was meaningless to you or me, but the radiologist can tell you a lot of very precise information from an X-ray,
01:54:21.000So with a readout from the seismograph, and Tom DeBecky said from the shape of the readout, it looks as though it is a chamber, more or less rectangular.
01:54:39.000It's under about 15 feet of bedrock on top of it.
01:54:43.000And there is actually a chamber, which Tom didn't even know about, Behind the Sphinx, a rough cut chamber, there's a block and you pull the block away and you have a little rope ladder.
01:54:55.000You can go down into this rough cut chamber where there's nothing and nobody had been able to figure out who cut it or why or when.
01:55:03.000But there is such a chamber there and on the seismograph readout, this looks The same, in other words, you get certain colors and stuff like that, looks the same as what you get under the paw of the Sphinx.
01:55:18.000So, Debecky, who put his neck on the line, said, well, this looks like, cautiously, like there is a chamber there.
01:55:26.000The problem is, getting in there, Because it's below what's now the water level, the water table level, so you can't really excavate or it would be enormously difficult to excavate.
01:55:42.000You go underwater, you mean, as you drill, as you dig into it, you would actually go underwater.
01:55:47.000But in theory, you could put down one of those little fiber optic cameras, but if it's all water in there, you're not going to see anything anyway.
01:55:55.000To actually excavate it would mean going in there with you know with huge pumps pulling the water out as fast as it came in and the sphinxes the sphinxes that would be almost impossible right and the sphinxes it would be possible but it would be dangerous because the sphinx is you know is in pretty rough shape as it is i mean pieces fall off it all the time and things like that so it may be one of these days who knows if the theory takes If the theory takes
01:56:25.000root and the powers that be realize that it's good PR, among other things, to try to excavate it and see if there is anything there.
01:56:42.000Meanwhile, for me, I'll stick with the geology and the other pieces of evidence.
01:56:47.000I don't give an awful lot of thought to that, but the seismograph says there is something there.
01:56:53.000Have they detected any other undiscovered ruins or any undiscovered areas that they would like to explore in Egypt?
01:57:01.000Or do they pretty much have the entire area mapped out?
01:57:08.000Well, they have it, it's a complex question, they have it pretty well mapped out because they recently, I forget the woman's name, very interesting, The satellites flying over have done...
01:57:24.000I'm not sure if it's infrared or something that gives you...
01:57:29.000I think it's infrared photography that tells you if there's something underground.
01:58:06.000I mean, see, look, with the Sphinx, for example, if the head were not sticking above the ground, you wouldn't even know about it to this day.
01:58:18.000It would just be sand, and why would anyone bother?
01:58:21.000But with these different new technologies, certainly ground-penetrating radar and seismographs will tell you if there's anything there, but they're expensive.
01:58:32.000You've got thousands of miles of desert, and this is a slow process, whereas a flyover tells you a lot, so they now know that there's That there are lots of buried sites, but if they're that close to the surface,
01:58:49.000the chances that they're going to support the ancient, what we call the lost civilization hypothesis, is not necessarily commanding.
01:59:03.000And for our purposes, it doesn't even matter, because we have enough to go by Anyway, I mean, Gobekli Tepe and probably this Easter Island stuff and the magical bracelet and certain of the other things.
01:59:19.000There are megalithic sites in Sardinia which are not to be believed and nobody even knows about this.
01:59:26.000It's a treasure trove of megalithic sites.
01:59:44.000All we need is the financing to do our follow-up to the Mystery of the Sphinx.
01:59:56.000And ideally, what we want to do really is to get it into the theatres.
02:00:00.000And then go into TV and the web and all of that stuff.
02:00:08.000Well, you know, if you see if something has a high impact, like if you see a lot of video, like viral videos that have been released online that have gotten millions and millions and millions of viewers just by word of mouth, I really think that, you know, video on demand as well is another great option.
02:01:06.000We thank the sponsors again at the end and it allows a full two-hour intensive conversation and especially something about ancient Egypt, I think, demands that.
02:01:16.000It's such a complex sort of a situation to try to figure out how The conventional wisdom is saying that, when did they believe language was invented?
02:01:30.000It really is guesswork when you get back that far.
02:01:33.000The only thing that you can see, that you can say as a trend, is that the more they study, the further back everything goes.
02:01:45.000And not only the further back in terms of time, But they're further back in terms of sophistication.
02:01:52.000You see, I mean actually, look, Gobekli Tepe, which is, I mean, I hope you find some photos to, or I'll send them to you to intersperse with With this talk, so that people can actually see what I'm talking about.
02:02:10.000Well, I think a lot of people Google along with the show, so that's probably what a lot of people are doing right now.
02:02:18.000So, I mean, with Gobekli Tepe, we're talking about 10,000 B.C. Now, you know, that's five times the span of time from Jesus and Julius Caesar to us.
02:05:13.000Our setup is obviously very different than theirs, but we imagine ourselves to be the more advanced.
02:05:19.000They don't have TVs, so we're like, oh, they're fucking idiots.
02:05:23.000If they don't have the internet, we're like, well, they weren't advanced.
02:05:26.000But meanwhile, they're capable of these massive constructions.
02:05:30.000I wanted to ask you about the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber and the evidence that it had been made with some sort of a high-speed diamond-bit drill.
02:05:40.000Well, that's Chris Dunn's theory that we talked about.
02:06:38.000Now, the idea of the lost civilization is the idea, Graham Hancock's idea, that there's a missing era that we can't place.
02:06:48.000When do you believe that took place in relation to the timeline of Egypt?
02:06:52.000When was all the information, or a good chunk of it, lost and they had to start from scratch?
02:06:58.000Well, we don't know because, you see, there's enough there Not much, but scattered around so that you can say maybe it was never lost, but it was never manifested in this spectacular architecture.
02:07:11.000For example, I was talking before about the Red Pyramid of Dashur that's built over a ruinous megalithic structure, but that megalithic structure is pretty considerable.
02:07:23.000It's sort of like Newgrange and certain of the Of the megalithic structures in England and Scotland and Wales.
02:07:34.000And then there's this strange stone circle, pretty ruinous, called Napta Playa, N-A-B-T-A-P-L-A-Y-A, in...
02:07:47.000In southwestern Egypt, west of Abu Simbel, not far from the Sudan border.
02:07:58.000It doesn't look like much, but even the academics acknowledge that it's astronomically oriented and there's a lot about it that puts its date, they date it, they, And academics dated to about 6000 BC. Well, astronomically oriented in 6000 BC means already that it's sophisticated.
02:08:22.000If it's astronomy, you're not supposed to have astronomy back then.
02:08:26.000And then there's an interesting guy, a friend of mine, a physicist, And an archaeoastronomer who looks at the evidence and interprets it in a much more sophisticated fashion that there are indications there,
02:08:41.000or at least they are referring back to a time of about 16,000 or so BC, even though the stone circle itself satisfactorily dates to about 6,000 BC. And then we go to the Gobekli Tepe, And we go to the bracelet.
02:09:00.000Now we're talking 10,000 BC. And the bracelet, we're talking 8,000 BC. And Chauvet, these fabulous paintings of horses and rhinoceroses and cave bears and lions, that's 31,000 BC. So, how much do you need?
02:09:18.000I mean, they certainly weren't living in condos, but they had this knowledge and this artistry at their disposal, and they had it at a fantastically early time.
02:09:30.000So we just don't know when they lost all this stuff.
02:09:33.000We don't know when the Egyptian civilization, either whether it was a slow erosion, whether it was a massive decline, and somehow or another it sort of coincides with the end of the last ice age?
02:09:55.000That's when all of the mammoths and the woolly rhinoceroses and all of that go extinct.
02:10:01.000So, and shock actually has some very interesting theories about, not just shock, but other people about what made it go extinct and maybe some sort of a plasma strike like a gigantic Sunspot-type event.
02:10:17.000There's some pretty good evidence for this.
02:11:30.000In the temple of Edfu, which is a very late Ptolemaic temple between 250 BC, you know, into Roman times, built in stages, that shows the pharaoh with a rope around an obelisk, sort of pulling it up into position by himself.
02:11:50.000Well, that's not meant to be taken literally, unless it's a very small obelisk.
02:11:54.000But in Egypt, what you see is what you get.
02:11:56.000So, when you see evidence that you don't necessarily like, but it's there in the temple walls.
02:12:06.000Well, you can't really ignore it just because you want to believe that the aliens built everything.
02:12:12.000So, there's the Pharaoh pulling the obelisk up and there's a theory developed It's the one favored by the Egyptologists at the moment.
02:12:21.000I mean, even they can't be wrong all the time.
02:12:24.000And by an Egyptologist named Labib Habashi, which talks about how they take these obelisks, which weigh hundreds of tons, they somehow get them out of the quarry.
02:12:40.000This is really, in words, it doesn't make any sense.
02:12:43.000When we're in Egypt and you're at what's called It's called the Unfinished Obelisk in Aswan.
02:12:50.000And here's this block of stone that they were pulling out of the rock, and they didn't make it for interesting reasons that developed the fault line.
02:12:57.000But had they got this block of stone out of the bedrock, it would have weighed 1,200 tons.
02:13:05.000And somehow, they got it out of the quarry and onto rafts or boats, probably in the flood season, and drifted it Down the Nile, maybe to Luxor, who knows?
02:13:19.000We don't know where it was intended to go.
02:13:21.000And then they would have, somehow or another, had to get it up into position.
02:13:26.000And according to Labi Babashi, they did this by pulling it up a gigantic ramp and it was set up in such a way that with a kind of a It would come up the ramp with its bottom at the top part and then gradually with lots of people with ropes and you'd be surprised how precise you can be with lots of trained men with
02:13:56.000ropes and they would gradually pull it up and it would go...
02:14:01.000There was a kind of a deep shaft that was constructed that was full of sand and they'd gradually pull the sand out from under And all of these guys pulling with the ropes would gradually revert up into position and very exactly place it down on its base.
02:14:20.000But how do they get the sand out at the last minute?
02:14:23.000When you're there, all of this makes sense.
02:14:25.000But it's fascinating to try to Figure out if this is how it's done.
02:15:17.000So when they built the Aswan Dam, and they would have flooded this fabulous place, they got together a whole bunch of money, 90 million dollars I think it was, UNESCO got it together and they got all of the engineers and what they had to do is they had to basically they had to move a hole so they had to cut around the temple and then they had to cut because the statues are enormous,
02:15:45.000they're 65 feet high and then they had to cut them into four and move the blocks because they moved the entire, they moved the whole up to the top Of the hill that they were built into, because the water would have covered where they were.
02:16:35.000It exploded in an earthquake somewhere around Julius Caesar time.
02:16:44.000But this originally weighed about a thousand tons, and they got it down the river somehow, and that's amazing enough, but then how do they get it off the boat?
02:16:57.000In other words, assuming that they're moving it in flood season on giant rafts, then they've got to get the rafts, they've got to get this thousand-ton block off the raft and move it into place.
02:17:11.000Well, the actual moving it On the flat, there are, when you're talking about before, what evidence is there?
02:17:17.000There's one, I forget what tomb it's from, but there's a tomb relief showing a huge sledge with a giant colossal statue of the Pharaoh on it, and then lots and lots of men pulling the sledge over the land, and somebody in the front pouring something, maybe some water, because slick mud, actually, It's remarkably slippery and you can pull things.
02:17:43.000So, as I said earlier, what you see is what you get.
02:17:46.000You can't deny that evidence when you see the evidence in front of your nose and say, oh, well, it's aliens dropping things from space-age helicopters or something.
02:17:56.000When the evidence is there, that's the evidence.
02:17:59.000But you've got to be careful about the evidence.
02:18:02.000There are scenes, symbols, Yeah, incredibly complicated subject.
02:18:15.000Now no subject of ancient civilizations would be complete without a discussion of ancient Sumer and the Fantastical work of Zachariah Sitchin.
02:18:28.000I'm sure you're familiar with all that stuff.
02:18:30.000What's your take on Zachariah Sitchin's ideas that the Anunnaki came from another planet?
02:18:36.000For a lot of people who don't know, it's some pretty crazy stuff that states that human beings were created through genetic engineering and...
02:18:45.000Yeah, well I think actually I'm not a Sitchinini and I find when Sitchin...
02:18:53.000I mean I can't challenge his translations from the Sumerian because I just can't.
02:19:02.000But they're his translations and unfortunately to the best of my knowledge I don't know Of any of the, you know, Sumerian experts who bothered to take a look at his work, which is too bad.
02:19:23.000And from that, I extrapolate and do not much care for his work.
02:19:31.000And when he gets into explaining who the gods were, that they're alien They're aliens as malignant as ourselves who enslaved a primitive human race.
02:19:47.000And that the gods of Egypt and everywhere else are really just aliens that have been misunderstood by primitive imaginations.
02:19:56.000This is really stupid and malignant bullshit.
02:19:59.000And here's a bit of evidence that one of the Egyptian creation myths It concerns the god before there were any gods, the god called Atum, who exists before there is existence, as it were.
02:20:15.000And he creates existence through an act of masturbation.
02:20:20.000He creates the first polarization, the first female and the first male.
02:20:40.000That the primitives saw an ancient alien whacking off behind a tree and decided that this was how the universe was created?
02:20:52.000It has absolutely nothing to do with this.
02:20:54.000In other words, The gods of Egypt and the gods of all other civilizations, including those we sometimes think are primitive, represent cosmic principles.
02:21:29.000And as far as I'm concerned, the whole notion that we human beings, the creators, not Sechin, but some others did create the Cathedral of Shatka and the Builders, the temples of Egypt and so on, are somehow or another deluded primitives who were Who were enslaved by aliens and who then found a way to set themselves free but remembered their alien backgrounds and commemorated
02:22:00.000them in all of this wonderful architecture.
02:22:04.000And not only is it stupid, it's malignant.
02:22:06.000It's malignant in the same way it's the opposite of, let's say, of Darwinian evolution, which, you know, in other words, it deprives human existence Of all meaning.
02:22:22.000And that's in fact what modern science does.
02:22:24.000Modern rationalist science deprives us of any meaning in life and in fact they're very proud of it.
02:22:52.000This is, again, this is a Sitchin-esque stuff, except it's called science, that we have to have had, that we have to have had more and more primitive beings that were responsible, you know, that gradually...
02:24:40.000I said, I knew from lots of experience that finding an open-minded scientist was like finding a fundamentalist Christian who loves his enemies.
02:24:49.000And he said, wait a minute, there's a young guy teaching with me.
02:24:53.000Anyway, one thing or another led to Robert Chalk.
02:24:56.000And gradually, gradually, at first, he was interested in the evidence, but he didn't want to even...
02:25:01.000I wasn't even supposed to know his name, and finally, because he was up for tenure, and if anybody thinks you're looking for a lost civilization, you're up for tenure, you're not going to get your tenure.
02:25:12.000Anyway, eventually, Chuck and I met, and as I said, I've been...
02:25:17.000I find, not evolution, evolution is a fact, but Darwinian evolution by natural selection It's arguably the greatest superstition ever foisted upon the human race.
02:28:05.000If you look at the two words themselves, natural selection is promoted as the means whereby things automatically, by a series, this is a quote from a very famous current evolution, Darwinian Daniel Dennett, a series of lucky coincidences produces mosquitoes and us and all the rest of it.
02:28:31.000And this is supposed to be the agency for this is natural selection.
02:28:35.000But if you look at the word natural, if you go to the dictionary, even the great big Oxford English dictionary that I have, and look up the word natural, nowhere does natural mean accidental or fortuitous.
02:28:48.000Natural simply means of the natural world.
02:28:50.000So to say that it's natural means that it's accidental, It has nothing to do.
02:28:55.000The word natural doesn't describe accidental.
02:28:59.000Nowhere does it connote or suggest fortuitousness.
02:29:32.000Natural suggests hierarchical order of the most sophisticated purpose.
02:29:38.000So to call an accidental process natural selection is a con job.
02:29:43.000If they want to describe it, actually, Actually, Daniel Dennett does a very good job.
02:29:49.000He says, evolution is nothing but a series of lucky coincidences.
02:29:53.000If they call the whole theory, the theory of lucky coincidences, it would stop sounding scientific.
02:29:59.000We don't know how any of these things developed and the much derided, what do they call themselves, the intelligent design people, also they use the wrong A bit they use the wrong language because intelligent design suggests a designer and then you're talking about God and of course they're not going to be talking about God and getting away with it in academic circles.
02:30:28.000But in fact if they called it intelligent creativity they'd be closer to the mark.
02:30:33.000Creativity is built into the universal structure.
02:30:37.000It's creativity itself but we're in the middle of creativity.
02:31:31.000The manner in which it manifests through supposed natural selection It's a total fraud.
02:31:37.000So what you're saying, just to clarify, is that evolution is real but the process of natural selection due to random mutations is something you don't buy.
02:31:45.000You think there's more of a design element to it all.
02:31:49.000It seems to be acting and responding in a creative and intelligent way.
02:31:56.000In other words, it is creativity Creativity is there before anything is created.
02:32:05.000In other words, it's the matrix in which things somehow or another, and we don't know the process, evolve.
02:32:14.000But it's not, it probably is not random.
02:32:18.000And in fact, there's a ton of stuff when you get into this.
02:32:21.000I have a folder this wide on evolution that Schock and I will get into.
02:32:30.000And I hope pretty soon, somewhere along the line, that it can't work that way.
02:32:39.000And the deeper they look, the more they find.
02:32:44.000I mean, I just had today, actually, you should write Hancock and get this guy who works with him, Steve Detweiler, A list that he sends out every week of interesting articles.
02:32:57.000There was one just today, or maybe one of the other science things that I get all the time about the intelligence of plants.
02:33:09.000They actually communicate with each other and so on.
02:33:12.000In other words, we exist within a creative matrix.
02:33:18.000It's not that Stuff just happens and all of a sudden there's intelligence.
02:33:22.000It's that there is intelligence and we are the result of the intelligence.
02:33:27.000Not that God woke up one morning and said, well, today I think I will create mosquitoes.
02:33:33.000It's that somehow that it's like imagining, for example, do you suppose that the cells in our body have any idea Or my body have any idea that here I am talking to a guy called Joe Rogan for three hours about these subjects?
02:33:59.000We're cells in a prodigious but intelligent and directed organism.
02:34:07.000And that's actually the Even though you'd never know it from listening to the baloney that the priests and the mullahs and all of the rabbis and all of these imbeciles talk about, this is actually what's at the basis of all of the religions, however corrupt they've become.
02:34:26.000We have a function to perform in the whole gigantic structure and it's hierarchical and it's organized.
02:34:42.000So this is where it gets really crazy, okay?
02:34:44.000Because where did, how did the human animal emerge?
02:34:50.000If the human animal didn't emerge from lower hominids and we existed in this form from the beginning, is that the supposition?
02:34:57.000Because they've absolutely proven that there have been lower forms of human beings, other different branches of the human tree that died off.
02:35:07.000Neanderthal, for example, Australopithecus, there's a bunch of different ones from the past, they suppose, were what they call quote-unquote early man.
02:35:42.000And as I said earlier, using the image of dance, Let's say an enlightened society that expressed itself only in dance and by dancing experienced the highest levels of creativity.
02:35:59.000See, this is the thing that most of these scientists are seriously defective human beings.
02:36:07.000They're uncreative by nature and they distrust their own emotions.
02:36:13.000You listen to the Beethoven quartets or walk into the Cathedral of Shanta or the temples of Egypt and that tells you a lot, even if you can't necessarily explain it.
02:36:24.000I mean, we, however we are, it may be, let's say, the theosophists in certain of the esoteric societies, you know, have it that we're there from the beginning, but we're only made manifest, however that happens, at a later date.
02:36:43.000There's absolutely no evidence that, you know, they come up with Lucy or something like that.
02:38:59.000His theory for the folks at home is the doubling of the human brain size occurred over a period of two million years, which he coincides with the rainforest receding into grasslands and then the lower hominids coming out of the trees, experimenting with new food sources and eating psilocybin mushrooms.
02:39:17.000That's actually funny because for somebody who did a lot of experimenting with ayahuasca, which I've also done actually, he's extrapolating and trying to make his experience fit in with Darwinian theory and he should know better than that because he was a very smart guy.
02:39:46.000You know, listen, virtually all of the ancient texts talk about a kind of Eden-like state, you know, an enlightened state that we've descended from.
02:39:59.000In other words, we start at the top and degenerate.
02:40:02.000And to me, this is not This is not so difficult to imagine.
02:40:08.000I mean, it happens often that things, a great teacher comes along and everything disappears.
02:40:15.000You know, we tend to think that everything is like technology and you start off with the 1892 Mercedes and suddenly we've got a 2012 Ferrari.
02:40:25.000But with Egypt, for example, It seems to be at its height at the very beginning, with no period of development.
02:40:33.000So it's such a massive mystery, and all your years of exploring it have literally got you to the point where you're like, no one knows, and any talking about it is just nonsense.
02:40:43.000Well, anyway, talking about it as though you know is nonsense.
02:41:57.000So, my point was, like, what time did it all fall apart where it was essentially the Sphinx and the pyramids and all that were stopped being used for what they were abandoned and then people had to come back to and go, wow, look at what we have here.
02:42:09.000Yeah, that you can sort of put a date to.
02:42:12.000I mean, the Egyptian religion died Shortly after, you know, first, second century AD. It was no longer being practiced, although the knowledge percolated down into Alexandria and, you know, dispersed around the Middle East, the Library of Alexandria.
02:42:35.000of intellectual and philosophical activity, always.
02:42:38.000I mean, Alexandria was always there, but the actual Egyptian religion as such died somewhere, let's say, in the middle of the 3rd century AD. But as I said earlier, in the hermetic disciplines and alchemy and astrology and magic and number symbolism and neoplatonism, all of that knowledge continued throughout, you know, throughout European civilization.
02:43:03.000I mean, the The Renaissance, the great figures of the Renaissance were always credited with opening the way out of superstition and so on, you know, and into modern science.
02:43:15.000They did open the way to modern science, but they themselves believed that their own knowledge, when Kepler discovered the laws of planetary motion, he said, I've rediscovered the secrets of the Egyptians.
02:43:28.000It was a given to them that That all of this, that this advanced knowledge was available in Egypt, but it was Schwaller who actually, this is one of his great, great, great contributions to human thought, it was Schwaller who proved that they had it.
02:43:59.000You keep going back, and they keep going back, and the further they go back, all of a sudden they come across something It disproves everything they thought before.
02:45:01.000They've discovered, this is again only the last couple of years, that Sea travel was going on between North Africa, and I'm not sure if it was Cyprus or some of the Greek islands.
02:45:13.000It's either 100,000 years ago or 200,000 years ago.
02:45:17.000So, if you follow this stuff, the more that's discovered, the more you become impressed that some kind of advanced knowledge was always there, and even that is based upon A technological is the only way we tend to think.
02:45:36.000A technological assessment of what they know.
02:45:39.000We don't know what was going on inside them.
02:45:41.000We don't know how intelligent they were and that the possibility is that they were this intelligent from the beginning.
02:46:05.000It's just we're brought up in such a way by this iniquitous Church of Progress of ours to think that you have to be able to do complex mathematics and, you know, all kinds of stuff.
02:46:19.000And then, even when you have that point of view, the further back you go, you see that they had a cosmology and you see that they had a geometry.
02:46:28.000And they had technology to produce a Gobekli Tepe and a Chauvet.
02:46:34.000So the whole Darwinian paradigm is exploded when you take all of those things into consideration.
02:46:43.000Is it possible that the Darwinian model works if you just take the timeline way back and then people evolved over hundreds of thousands of years and hundreds of thousands of years earlier than we thought?
02:46:55.000Well, that's what they say, but why should it?
02:46:58.000In other words, what is there in the nature of the hydrogen atom that presupposes that things are going to get more complicated and sophisticated?
02:49:40.000And, I mean, I try to tell people that they really Because I'm talking the esotericism and the ancient Egypt and the meaning of the real civilization.
02:49:51.000And Gerald is between us and we've got really some very high level people working with us, a brilliant illustrator.
02:49:59.000And we put out this journal that, boy, I mean, this thing is coming unstuck in a hurry, and if people don't individually and collectively prepare for it, they're going to be unprepared.
02:50:17.000Are you talking about a collapse in the economy, the end of civilization, that kind of thing?
02:50:23.000Well, the end of civilization as we know it, very likely.
02:50:28.000Unless enough people act together quickly and they probably won't.
02:51:32.000We'll populate that very quickly, and people can find out about your trips.
02:51:35.000Yeah, my daughter will do that, because as I said, we're reviving, we're reincarnating our ancient wisdom foundation.
02:51:44.000And by the way, I should put a plug in that before we put it up, because it's...
02:51:48.000I told you, I mean, we're pretty sure, I can't be a promise yet, that we've got this incentive thing going.
02:51:53.000And if you pull up ancientwisdomfoundation.org, there'll be some information about the projects that we're involved in.
02:52:01.000And I really do believe that unless, unless enough of us of humanity goes back to, or recreates, a civilization based upon The ancient principles.
02:52:17.000In other words, we're not going to rebuild pyramids again or mummify our pharaohs or anything like that.
02:52:53.000As I said, we're not going to mummify our pharaohs again.
02:52:56.000But without that understanding, and without an understanding of where we're heading at the moment, there's plenty of scare stuff out there.
02:53:04.000A lot of it is valid, but most of the scare stuff doesn't have the The antidote built into it.
02:53:38.000Well, John, I think also the ability to spread that kind of information and knowledge to people and to be able to do it in a form like this, it's very rare and very new.
02:53:48.000And I think that the Internet and this open access to information that we have on it is one of the best hopes that we have for turning this whole thing around.