In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, Joe talks with Hal Puthoff, who was a pioneer in the field of parapsychology and UFO research at SRI in the late 80s and early 90s.
00:00:28.000I knew him at SRI. Actually, I was at Stanford Research Institute before him in one of the very early internet research teams.
00:00:40.000When there was no internet, it was called the ARPANET. It was a network of the Advanced Research Project Agency, and it was all, you know, computer experiment and so on.
00:00:52.000We had engine number three on the internet at SRI in California.
00:01:00.000Engine number three on the ARPANET. By the time I joined them, there were like 30 machines already.
00:01:09.000And then, you know, Dr. Puthoff and Russell Tarr came in with a proposal to SRI to do parapsychology research at SRI, which had never been done.
00:01:25.000And it was funny because they – so I was already there, you know, in a team.
00:01:49.000It was funny because I was in my office and the vice president of SRI came in, closed the door.
00:01:58.000And said, Jacques, you know, you've published some things controversial under your name on UFOs, and you haven't lost your scientific reputation,
00:02:14.000which is why you're here working for us at SRI on the ARPANET. But, you know, there's a proposal from Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Tark to do parapsychology research here.
00:03:07.000And here is what I manage, you know, in this division.
00:03:12.000I drew a huge cube, you know, it said $150 million.
00:03:19.000Should we jeopardize the research we do for Xerox and IBM and AT&T and Bank of America and so on just to do some research on, you know, psychic things?
00:03:34.000And I said, well, you know, the reason we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on is that we do the research that they can't do themselves.
00:04:39.000And he said, well, give me a memo by tomorrow at 12. So I went home and I wrote a two-page memo, which was confidential.
00:04:50.000I don't think anybody has seen it, for the board explaining why there was scientific evidence, you know, enough of it so that good research could be done.
00:05:05.000And I, you know, obviously that may have helped.
00:05:12.000Getting the approval for them to come in.
00:05:15.000And then after the first year, you know, they were there because, you know, the money kept coming and the results, you know, good scientific results came in.
00:05:28.000So when you say parapsychology, specifically, what were you attempting to study?
00:05:33.000So most of parapsychology, as the name indicates, has been studied by psychologists.
00:05:39.000You know, people who have experiences and they relate their experiences and they have strange dreams, they have all that.
00:05:47.000And then that has been structured by, you know, people doing experiments.
00:05:56.000Trying to move objects with your mind, trying to, of course, send messages psychically to other people, or guessing what's written in a closed envelope, and so on, that kind of thing.
00:06:15.000But again, those were done by good experimentalists, but where is the physics of that?
00:06:23.000You know, because in physics, you know, those things aren't supposed to happen.
00:06:28.000Without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of.
00:06:34.000You know, our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that.
00:06:41.000But it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other.
00:06:55.000Relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict.
00:07:01.000God, I glanced at it quickly and I was running out the door, but I was going to ask Jamie to pull it up.
00:07:10.000There's new research that shows that human beings have the ability to detect the magnetic field the same way that birds do when they fly south and other animals they believe do when they navigate terrain.
00:07:24.000They think that human beings have this ability, but perhaps it's something that we have ignored so long it's atrophied or it's not something that we use.
00:07:35.000That's a question for a biologist or specialist of the brain, although it may not be in the brain itself.
00:09:17.000You know, if you look at the history of the islands in the Pacific, like I spent some time in Tahiti and I looked at their traditions, they were navigating the Pacific fine.
00:11:38.000Coming up with ways to make sure that there couldn't be any possible way they could be communicating with each other.
00:11:45.000And it's just utterly fascinating because they're showing that there is something going on.
00:11:50.000There's some way of transferring information back and forth, including some of these teachers have figured out a way to not just receive but also transmit the same way these children have.
00:12:00.000So people that aren't nonverbal and they aren't autistic.
00:12:05.000These people are able to do it as well.
00:12:07.000They've been able to create a bond with these children and communicate with them.
00:12:11.000And there are companies in Silicon Valley that are heavily involved in advanced processing and advanced programming, specifically recruiting young men and women with that.
00:12:28.000I have three grandsons that I love, and one of them is—it's not clear whether he's actually autistic in the current definition, but he certainly has some of those indications of thinking and getting information in ways that are very different.
00:12:53.000Now, it may be that in evolution, The reason, you know, sort of, quote, lower animals can do it and we cannot is that we've developed other ways of getting information that are more reliable in the long run.
00:13:12.000So it may be just one of the dormant, you know, abilities that we have that most of us don't.
00:18:01.000It's 2314. 2314 is where I'm going to put the age of the patient.
00:18:09.000But it's going to be different with every patient.
00:18:11.000So that's direct addressing, but I can also put in that location, I can put the address of somewhere else, which I'm going to compute in my program, and that's indirect addressing.
00:18:30.000And then there's the rest of the world, which is too big to put inside the machine.
00:18:34.000I mean, the machine has a memory, maybe very big, but it's still limited.
00:18:39.000So it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else.
00:18:46.000You know, maybe the World Bank or the Library of Congress.
00:18:52.000And there, I cannot give you the address.
00:18:58.000A sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with it.
00:19:17.000And then he came up with the idea of coordinate remote viewing out of that conversation I had with him.
00:19:26.000So that was my contribution to the actual project at the beginning.
00:19:31.000And then he thought as an address, he was going to take coordinates, longitude and latitude, because we were going to look at—they were going to—I wasn't officially part of the—but I was— You know, I had passed the qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project.
00:20:17.000To talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this, even though I wasn't, you know, on the project itself, but somebody who was inside, you know, so that the information didn't.
00:20:34.000Get out into the world until they were ready to actually publish it because everybody wanted to kill their project.
00:20:43.000I mean, there were so many skeptics saying, you know, this can't work.
00:22:48.000And those were test things from, you know, geographic features on the Earth, cities, mountains, and so on.
00:22:58.000So he would read out the coordinates, and I had a pad of paper and a number two pencil, so everything was very coded, you know, very straight.
00:23:10.000And I would draw something that he called an ideogram.
00:23:16.000So it could be like this, you know, it could be a curve, it could be...
00:27:05.000You know, I mean, I have to grab the table, and I'm not drawing anything, and Ingo says, Jacques, what's wrong?
00:27:14.000And I said, Ingo, I don't know where you're sending me, but I'm cold, I'm trembling, I'm afraid, I'm afraid of falling, and, you know, I really don't feel well.
00:27:29.000And he said, you're on top of a peak in the Andes.
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00:33:33.000Yes, I would lose that sense of direct access to something that bypasses the brain.
00:33:45.000Basically, I was trained in mathematics and physics and astronomy, so I use the part of my brain that's analytical, and I'm a good programmer, computer programmer.
00:34:03.000This is grabbing a signal which has everything in it, you know, and being able to catch it very fast and just get a little bit of information and then catch it again, recall it.
00:34:19.000You know, that's what we were doing that, you know, five times, six times, ten times until making sure that you don't try to name it, you don't try to put, you know, a description on top of it.
00:34:48.000A specific way that you achieved a state of mind that made you more able to perceive these coordinates or perceive what signal you're getting from remote viewing?
00:35:01.000I had a lot of admiration and love for Ingo for what he was capable of doing.
00:35:13.000His art and his personality and so on.
00:35:16.000He was, you know, very much admired in the whole team.
00:35:22.000And here I think it was the structure also of the experiment.
00:35:29.000You know, I trusted what he was trying to teach me.
00:36:22.000And then you can begin to analyze it, but you have to analyze it keeping your rational mind away from.
00:36:34.000So you just have to let the information come to you somehow or another and not try to imagine the information or create the information or perceive it.
00:37:35.000Patton is sent to North Africa because to fight Rommel.
00:37:41.000Rommel is there with his tanks and the American army is going to – isn't ready to invade Europe but wants to start controlling the Germans in North Africa.
00:37:57.000There is a – You know, a lieutenant there with a jeep that takes him to the place where there was a battle and the Americans were decimated by Rommel, who was just a genius German general.
00:39:44.000Patton thought that he was reincarnated from a Roman general who had been at that battle against Hannibal and his elephants.
00:39:57.000And, you know, the poor driver said, you know, how did this happen?
00:40:05.000You know, how did I get here with this general who thinks he's reincarnated, you know, who fought against Hannibal?
00:40:13.000And I've worked with people, as you know, I've run a number of venture capital funds with people who had that kind of intuition, you know, and you think finance is driven by greed and so on, but at some level, greed doesn't really matter.
00:40:40.000It's getting to the truth of something, especially in venture capital, where you're going to change the way things are done with these gadgets, with computers, with rockets and so on.
00:40:54.000You're going to go to a new generation of things.
00:43:31.000The Greeks had the Pythia, who was a woman.
00:43:38.000They had an area, a volcanic area, where there were fumes coming out of the earth that was supposed to be one of the doors to the underworld and so on.
00:43:49.000and there was a special cult around that place.
00:43:54.000And the king would go there before a great decision and would ask the message from the underworld or the message from the mind of the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth.
00:44:17.000So that has been regarded as – you know, Hitler, Adolf Hitler was in his – before the war, you know, when he got to be the leader of Germany –
00:44:43.000he exhibited and he very much believed in those.
00:45:13.000Well, that's always the age-old problem with Sears.
00:45:17.000Like, how do you know who's a charlatan and who's real?
00:45:20.000Because there's always a bunch of fake psychics.
00:45:23.000There's fake palm readers, fake tarot card readers, people that are just con artists, that are just trying to swindle people out of money.
00:45:31.000But that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have these bizarre abilities.
00:45:40.000That is something that people have sort of recognized forever, but it's always been dismissed, especially in this modern-day reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are, you know, tried, true, proven, agreed upon, you know, and then trust the science, like this concept that...
00:46:04.000In science, I mean, the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things and, you know, will give you guides to, you know...
00:46:19.000Well, I think that's what they've done with the telepathy tapes and I'm hoping the success of this and then they're going to do a whole series on it where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage so you're going to be able to see it for yourself.
00:46:32.000I'm hoping that this stops the ridicule because there's a bunch of scientists, and I think this is with the UAP topic as well, the UFO topic as well.
00:46:44.000I think there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much bullshit out there and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool.
00:46:54.000And to a very respected scientist whose research is very important as you were talking about with the IBM thing where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are dedicated towards these.
00:47:05.000Why would you risk all that and the credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room, finding coordinates, pretending they're on top of a mountain, all that kind of stuff?
00:47:22.000You know, certainly, you know, in California, there are people who can take risk, you know, and put a few million dollars behind something.
00:48:08.000And they also – as you know, France has had – For a long time has had a project on UFOs, an official project, and that takes reports from the public and they investigate them.
00:48:26.000It's a very small team, but they have access to all the resources of French research.
00:48:32.000So they can get the weather people, they can get the Air Force, they can get the radar people, they can get all of that.
00:48:40.000So they can tap into the resources of a lot of different departments of the government.
00:49:29.000They really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over.
00:49:34.000There are about 200 or 250 possible physical things that really could surprise you, that are unusual, that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that they are in the presence of a UFO. that would create conditions under which a normal person would Then what's interesting is the other 5%.
00:51:02.000Rule out the possibility of human technology when you're talking about people using propeller planes and seeing these things.
00:51:10.000We were at a time technologically where it's not possible to imagine that someone had gone that far beyond us.
00:51:18.000Now we are in that time where you see things, you go, well, how much of that is some sort of top secret government program, some military program, and they have drones that can move at extraordinary speeds with some undisclosed...
00:51:39.000But back then, this is one of the most fascinating things.
00:51:42.000I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months.
00:51:46.000And there was this series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters, not just – right now I'm on The Invisible College, but the last ones that I read were – The ones on various contacts that people have had and the similarity of these stories.
00:52:06.000And they go way back, way back, way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact.
00:52:12.000Like right now, I think in people's minds, the gray aliens are so iconic, a flying saucer like that.
00:52:20.000That's a copy of The Sport Model from Bob Lazar's Adventures.
00:52:25.000These things are in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them.
00:52:46.000They go a long, long way back, and there's too many that are very, very similar to what we're talking about today, to the point where a rational person would have to say, maybe there's something more to this.
00:53:10.000It's a token from Burgundy in France from the – a few centuries ago.
00:53:20.000The Duke of Burgundy was under attack.
00:53:24.000There was a lot of turmoil in French politics and the king was fighting the noble, the great nobility and so on, was in cahoots to get rid of the king and so on.
00:55:58.000Most shields are, you know, more oblong, but some of them are round.
00:56:04.000But the point is it's hovering in the sky protecting the land underneath.
00:56:12.000I think some of the more compelling stuff is like the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts, the Vimanas and all these different flying crafts that people described.
00:56:22.000They've always been a thing that people have described.
00:56:25.000And we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records because, of course, when people described something like that, especially if there was some sort of being associated with it.
00:57:14.000But people do have a fear, a legitimate fear, of being ridiculed, and that could stop their ability to be promoted within whatever organization they're in.
00:57:24.000You don't want to think, oh, there's Kooky Bob over there who thinks the aliens are watching us.
00:57:29.000The best cases I get are from executives in Silicon Valley whose family has seen something or who have seen something.
00:57:40.000And they've described, you know, frankly, UFOs to me.
00:58:35.000So usually the explanation when you read what the historians have said, it's supposed to be some god or some higher level entity that's coming to protect people and it's supposed to be some god or some higher level entity that's But when you look at the detail, I mean it really looks like a machine.
01:04:21.000And remember, in those cultures, those were agricultural cultures.
01:04:25.000So with people who were used to interpreting the weather, looking at the phases of the moon, looking at the rising time of the sun, and all that was important for their...
01:04:39.000So they knew their environment very well, better than we do as people living in cities.
01:04:47.000So we can take that to some extent that has a scientific value, especially when you can build a model of a number of those across different...
01:05:03.000But in that book, we were careful to break the book into sections.
01:05:12.000You know, corresponding to different evolution of the culture, explaining first a couple of pages what was happening during that time in terms of new inventions, like when the telescope was invented, when certain things were discovered and so on.
01:05:30.000So we were careful to put it in context with every – reinterpreting the – The description by the witness in the context that was appropriate.
01:05:44.000Well, it was very thorough and very objective, which is what I really enjoyed about it, where you were very clear what we absolutely knew and very clear what could be nonsense and myth, and that one of the things that keeps occurring over and over again is these similar stories.
01:06:04.000The stories are really similar from the 1700s to the 1800s into the 20th century.
01:06:10.000And then you, again, now it gets more muddy because now you have a bunch of people that realize that there's value in concocting a story and then talking about it and selling a book.
01:06:24.000And there's, I think there's people that are grifters and I think they...
01:06:29.000You know, I probably had a few of them on.
01:06:31.000They are capitalizing on this desire that people have for stories.
01:06:38.000Also now we think that the government has the answer, so people spend their time.
01:06:48.000You know, writing to different agencies and listening to reports from pilots, which is fine, of course, and people in the military, people in the intelligence community.
01:07:02.000Those are very valuable because now they have instruments to actually measure what they see on an F-18 and so on.
01:07:13.000And they are covered by radar and by AWACS and everything else.
01:08:12.000I don't need to have a clearance to go see the people and sit down.
01:08:19.000If I'm lucky, they'll invite me for lunch and, you know, I can talk to the kids, I can talk to the wife, I can talk to the people who took care of the cattle, and they'll tell me.
01:08:33.000That's where most of my information is really coming from.
01:08:38.000And it's not, you know, it's just very much in your face.
01:09:23.000What people describe as windows that may just be openings with light, you know, in the side of it.
01:09:31.000Doesn't have to be what we think of as a window.
01:09:35.000And then you have some irregular shapes, you know, just balls of light that...
01:09:45.000Physicists interpret it as maybe plasma, but plasma doesn't survive in the air, you know, shouldn't survive in the air more than a minute maybe, but people have, you know, seen some of those things for minutes and longer, you know, long enough to take pictures of it and so on, and it's not necessarily glowing.
01:10:19.000And they've been reported all over the world.
01:10:22.000Again, there are, you know, paintings of that kind of thing from the 18th century or the 17th century.
01:10:31.000So, that I've collected and published.
01:10:37.000So, we have these different categories.
01:10:41.000What are the most compelling paintings that we could find right now from like the 1700s or 1800s?
01:10:53.000I think there is a beautiful painting of hills and three blue spheres that are not moving, that seem to be suspended in the air, that seem to be suspended in the air, but it's not moving.
01:11:11.000Very distinct blue spheres that were seen and somebody, you know, recorded it and somebody did a painting of the scene.
01:11:22.000Those are things that people wanted to remember because they knew it was...
01:12:56.000It would be about the size of this room.
01:13:01.000Then there is a case in Socorro, and there is a case in Valenzol.
01:13:06.000Socorro and Valenzol, and people have concentrated on the first one, you know, the one that, because it's two years before Roswell, and there were witnesses there.
01:13:20.000You know, it was where there were no witnesses.
01:13:23.000There were people who came later who found the stuff and they reconstructed the story and it's a very interesting story.
01:13:30.000But at Trinity, they saw it arrive and they saw it crash.
01:13:36.000And they were there for 10 days afterwards watching the recovery.
01:13:54.000I mean, you know, Paola Harris found this, did research for four years on that, and then told me about it, and then we did another four years of research together at the site.
01:15:42.000I mean another life form from somewhere else.
01:15:45.000There were stories of the Russians actually thinking about creating a dwarf, you know, human to pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy, you know.
01:16:06.000So they were trying to get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter.
01:16:14.000But the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians in the 50s, you know, before Sputnik, that the Russians were trying to create a humanoid.
01:16:33.000Well, I know that the Russians, there was some talk of them trying to create a human-ape hybrid.
01:16:39.000They were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human-chimpanzee hybrid for war, which is a terrifying thought.
01:16:50.000First of all, if they were successful, how terrifying would that be?
01:16:53.000But just that they were interested in doing that, creating a race of chimpanzee-human warriors.
01:17:06.000To my knowledge, there hasn't been any correlation of that.
01:17:11.000And the creatures that are described in Socorro in New Mexico and in Valensol in France, so those are three cases that I've been very involved in from the beginning, from day one, involve creatures that are about...
01:17:32.000You know, three feet tall, that breathe our air, recognize our signals, you know, communicate with us in funny ways, even mentally.
01:17:43.000I mean, the witnesses describe getting images in their minds and so on, in all three cases.
01:17:53.000What's interesting is people can argue about Trinity all they want, like they argue about Roswell, but the case in Socorro and the case in France, in Valensol, were investigated by governments, you know, not by...
01:18:10.000You know, the local UFO group, although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases.
01:18:18.000But they were, in Socorro, it was first the, you know, the local police.
01:18:23.000The local policemen saw the craft and the beings and described what happened.
01:18:30.000He was terrified, but, you know, when the thing took off, he thought it was...
01:18:36.000Something to do with some new gadget or some work in the desert.
01:18:41.000It's an area that's still in the same state today.
01:18:44.000I've gone back there with Dr. Hynek's son, you know, with Paul Hynek a few months ago.
01:19:07.000But they helped preserve the traces, you know, the FBI way.
01:19:12.000And the local police was happy to have them there.
01:19:16.000And then there was the state police came in.
01:19:20.000And did an investigation and then people from the base, you know, came in with experts in explosives, experts in recovery of weapons and rockets and so on, because they thought it might be something that had come from...
01:19:42.000You know, from the Trinity Range that was out of its way and had crashed near Socorro, in which case they might have responsibility, including financial responsibility if something was destroyed or whatever.
01:20:38.000He had a field where he was growing plants to make perfume.
01:20:44.000So this was high-level, you know, expensive crop.
01:20:48.000This wasn't just, you know, alfalfa or something.
01:20:51.000And he goes there at five o'clock in the morning because, you know, he wants to do some—to water the thing and so on before the sun is up because it's going to be very—it's in the south of France.
01:21:53.000I pointed at him, and that's when he's paralyzed.
01:21:57.000Now, he's not, you know, as you know, I'm not a doctor, but I've gone to doctors about what kind of paralysis is that, where you can stand up and watch something, you just can't move.
01:22:10.000They said, well, there is a type of paralysis that will just inhibit the motor, you know, motor nerves, but you'll still be...
01:22:55.000The gendarmes are going to be very careful with him because he's also from the resistance in World War II. When he was young, he joined the resistance, and the resistance in that part of France fought in the Alps against the Germans.
01:23:13.000You know, they were regarded as heroes of World War II. And so the gendarmes are very careful with him.
01:23:23.000There are some things he's not going to tell the gendarmes because he thinks...
01:27:04.000There was something else, something outside.
01:27:08.000So you could almost call it sort of a religious feeling, but it wasn't about divinity or God specifically, but it was about, you know, the other side of life, a bigger meaning for life.
01:27:45.000And all three cases had similar stories in that regard.
01:27:49.000And in all three cases, there are traces that were measured.
01:27:54.000There is technology of salt and And in the case of Socorro, people came up with all kinds of ideas that maybe it was a balloon, you know, I mean, a special balloon.
01:28:13.000There were only 12 of them in the world.
01:28:16.000Well, in the book, people haven't noticed it, but in the book, I was able to solve that problem because I found a transcript of a conversation with a man who was head of a motor pool on the army range at White Sands.
01:28:43.000And he had given his team some instructions on, you know, how to make sure that the motor pool was working really well because white sand is so big.
01:31:49.000The patrolman wasn't drunk, like they accused him of, or making up a story and so on.
01:31:58.000Lonnie Zamora, when Dr. Hynek interrogated him, He said he wanted to talk to a priest and confess to a priest before he would talk to Dr. Hynek.
01:32:37.000There was a guy who was driving on the main road, the same road where the patrolman had been driving, who the thing passed right over his car.
01:32:48.000He thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went right over the roof of the car into the desert.
01:34:13.000So this is something that the case was so interesting that Dr. Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the Prime Astronautics.
01:34:30.000It took a couple of years for them to agree to look at it and so on to look at the analysis.
01:34:40.000This happened in a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska.
01:34:45.000But on the Iowa side, there is this town, this suburb, with a park.
01:34:52.000This is about a week before Christmas in 1977. People are there having a good time in the park in the evening.
01:38:37.000And the people saw something in the sky.
01:38:40.000So, you know, maybe it was the Air Force, you know, politely laughs at them and says, you know, we carry atom bombs, but we don't carry furnaces with molten steel.
01:39:17.000There were a few random cases that were classified for other reasons, not because of the UFO, because of where it was or whatever, that I didn't have access to.
01:40:01.000Get the files and redo, punch them into punch cards, take it to a computer, redo the statistics, looking at their explanation and then my explanation for the cases.
01:40:56.000I had a small contract that was completely, you know, unclassified to recalibrate the statistics of the Blue Book files.
01:41:08.000So I had access to essentially all the Blue Book files.
01:41:12.000But I went into the base with a clearance for three days with Dr. Hynek to go to the division that was looking at the UFOs and spend those three days with Major Quintanilla and his staff going for the files.
01:41:34.000And they had lots of remains of things and stones and strange metals and so on, which at the end of the project, all that was thrown away.
01:41:44.000So this is – everything is going on now.
01:43:01.000If there was, that would indicate that somebody had manipulated the isotopes, which is not a hoax.
01:43:09.000Then you know for sure it's not a hoax because that's high-caliber scientific laboratory work and you need special instrument experts to interpret it.
01:43:26.000Right, but that wasn't the case, right?
01:43:28.000So the isotopes hadn't been manipulated.
01:43:31.000Have they found, because I've heard this about Gary Nolan in particular, that they do have samples of things that they can't explain?
01:43:39.000So I gave him essentially all my samples, all the ones that I could relate to, reliable cases, because I don't want to give him junk.
01:43:50.000There's a lot of junk floating around.
01:45:46.000This paper is important, even though we didn't find something out of range, but that's, in a way, that's validation of what you have to do when somebody presents you with that kind of sample.
01:47:21.000There are some that we've done with one machine where there are indications.
01:47:28.000Now, at Stanford, Stanford, it's funny because you've had three generations of people.
01:47:36.000You know, at Stanford, looking at this, you know, before Dr. Nolan, I was there, and I was gathering data, and I was using the computer to do statistics and so on.
01:47:49.000And I worked for Professor Sturrock, who unfortunately died a few months ago at over 100, but he was still working in astrophysics.
01:47:59.000And, you know, I was on his astrophysics staff for a couple of years, looking at...
01:48:06.000At galaxies looking at the structure of the sun and looking at certain types of strange stars that had special emissions and so on.
01:48:19.000So I was this computer guy and we also looked at UFO materials, especially a case from Brazil which he published.
01:48:35.000He got financial support to do the isotope analysis, and some of it was arguably different.
01:49:10.000But it went from essentially solar physics and very high energy physics, you know, that I was working on with Dr. Sturrock, to me with the computing center and now with Dr. Nolan in the medical school.
01:49:26.000So we've had, you know, they are in trouble.
01:49:30.000Well, I'm glad you're willing to do that.
01:49:34.000I had heard that there was some alloy that was very difficult to comprehend that someone would be able to construct, that it would cost billions of dollars to make this particular type of alloy, that they had discovered something along those lines.
01:50:20.000It fits in the palm of your hand, you know, so it's a significant size.
01:50:27.000Remember, Dr. Nolan is looking at individual...
01:50:30.000The human cells, you know, with this device, okay?
01:50:33.000So, you know, anything more than 10 grams, you know, we don't need.
01:50:39.000I mean, we can work with very little material.
01:50:43.000Although, of course, we want to do different things with different parts of it.
01:50:48.000But this thing had some very interesting incrustation of a red deposit.
01:50:56.000And all the people who had looked at it, including some official labs and some signed disclaimers saying they would not scrape off the interesting deposits that were on it.
01:51:56.000If people want to find this, it says, improve instrumental techniques, including isotope analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics.
01:52:26.000If these encounters happened, if this egg-shaped craft was real, and if these small people-like things that breathe air did communicate with people.
01:53:09.000And it said, you know, trajectory, composition, luminosity, radiation, and so on.
01:53:17.000Well, yeah, those are the things that you'd need if you were looking at a Russian aircraft, you know, or you were looking at, you know, the Nimitz thing, whatever it was.
01:53:57.000Papers are from the New York Times on down with the picture of, you know, the photograph that the F-18 was taking, the pilot took from the thing.
01:54:11.000Well, nobody mentions that this isn't a photograph.
01:54:52.000So when this was published by the New York Times, there was a very interesting memo with a little touch of humor from Raytheon to the Navy saying, you know those things you've published?
01:55:10.000It was taken with one of the devices which we sold you to put under the wing of your aircraft.
01:55:19.000A camera, it's not a photographic camera.
01:55:22.000You gave us specifications for what you wanted us to build, and that's what we gave you.
01:55:29.000You wanted something that could measure the temperature of the exhaust of an enemy aircraft that you're going to shoot down.
01:55:39.000You know, the F-18 goes behind that Russian thing or MiG or whatever.
01:55:44.000And the camera is painting the exhaust from the Russian guy so that you can distinguish between, you know, American Airlines 723 and a MiG.
01:56:00.000That's going to help you discriminate what kind of enemy you've got.
01:59:37.000You put it in the nose of your Piper Cub or whatever, and you fly around Los Angeles, and it will acquire the characteristics of all the radars in the Los Angeles area digitally.
01:59:53.000It's a computer, essentially, that requires radar data.
01:59:57.000And then it feeds back radar characteristics.
02:00:02.000Of any aircraft you want somewhere else.
02:00:08.000So if you want your paper cap to look like a B-52 20 miles away, you turn on, you know, I'm making it simple, but you program the thing and you can redirect the defense, the air defense, for example, to another place.
02:00:30.000So you can send a signal to another place that makes it look like there's a B-52 there?
02:00:44.000It's a digital radar feedback device that once you know the characteristics of the radars that are painting you, you can, I mean, obviously...
02:00:56.000Suppose you want to travel to Moscow over the Iron Curtain without being shut down by the Soviet Air Force.
02:01:09.000You'd want to redirect all the radars.
02:01:16.000One of the things that they said about the Tic Tac was that when they encountered it, it was somehow or another blocking their detection signals.
02:02:45.000I've always questioned where they take place because they take place in the same areas where the United States always runs military training exercises.
02:02:53.000They take place off of San Diego, off of the East Coast, all these areas where we know that they run exercises all the time, restricted airspace.
02:03:03.000If you were going to test equipment...
02:03:06.000I think this was in international waters.
02:03:46.000The effect, similar to a giant flying saucer suddenly materializing in midair, would be reminiscent of a scene from a science fiction film, but is achievable according to a peer-reviewed paper published on January 8th.
02:03:57.000Also, so then the month before that, here's their new stealth fighter that's painted with the stuff you just said that scatters the frequencies or something.
02:04:16.000What I was getting at was, if you're the United States government, if you're the military, and you have this kind of equipment and you want to test it, what better way than to test it on people that don't know you're testing it on them?
02:04:31.000Send your fighter jets out there, have them encounter these things.
02:04:35.000Run your whatever experiment you're doing with making something appear and reappear and take off and give them these signals.
02:04:44.000Give them these disruptive, deceptive signals and see whether or not they...
02:04:50.000The problem is they had visual confirmation of these things.
02:04:54.000The problem is they actually saw these things.
02:04:56.000Like the Tic Tac was they visually saw it for people, right?
02:05:01.000I have a colleague in Silicon Valley who's been a distinguished army career, and he told me that there were, in fact, tests of especially nuclear facilities, not necessarily the military, but mostly the military facilities.
02:05:27.000To test the ability to penetrate the perimeter.
02:05:31.000So those flights are not cleared with the people who manage the plant.
02:05:40.000So it's either a nuclear plant that makes...
02:05:45.000You know, fuel for bombs, or it's a base where nuclear weapons are stored, and there are guys around the perimeter with machine guns, and they are going to sound an alert if they see something coming over the fence.
02:06:04.000Well, suppose you come over the fence looking like a flying saucer.
02:06:09.000Are they going to start shooting or not?
02:06:14.000You know, he told me that he had actually flown some of those missions.
02:06:19.000And I know another member of the BAS team who confirmed that told me he had been on some of those missions.
02:06:29.000They make their plane look like, you know, they put lights around it so it can look like a flying saucer, essentially, or look like...
02:06:42.000What a UFO, what would be a UFO to the guard?
02:06:46.000So that the guard is, they want to see if they can penetrate, if you can disguise yourself to the extent that psychologically you can inhibit the reaction of the guards and you can fly over the fence.
02:07:31.000But it doesn't explain all these things.
02:07:34.000And that's the, the problem that I always have is that they just, Abundance of encounters and how similar a lot of them are and then what it must feel like I've never had an experience But what it must feel like to have that experience What that you probably would be very I wouldn't be reluctant because I'm a known Person to talk about silly things,
02:07:58.000but if you're not if you're like a serious person you have some sort of an encounter I would imagine there's a lot of pressure on you to not tell people If you're a lawyer or a doctor or you're any sort of, like, respectable person that's a serious individual in whatever you're doing for a career, you don't want people to associate you with nonsense or think that, oh, maybe Mike is losing his mind.
02:08:24.000Yeah, you can, because you have people relying on your ability to...
02:08:27.000So maybe you tell your friends, maybe you tell your mother, maybe you tell your wife, but you probably don't tell the press.
02:08:35.000If you're a scientist, I would imagine you would have to have, like, significant evidence for you to stick your neck out.
02:08:42.000Or you're a person like yourself that's been very brave for all these years.
02:08:45.000Because you were talking about this stuff in the 1960s, which is pretty crazy.
02:08:50.000Well, you know, I had seen, essentially, a flying saucer when I was 15. Can you describe it?
02:09:00.000I grew up in a town that's about 45 minutes out of Paris on the road to Normandy.
02:09:11.000And my father was a judge in that town for a while.
02:09:16.000And a beautiful afternoon in the summer.
02:10:34.000And then the next day, I asked a friend of mine from school who was, you know, we were the two good students in physics and so on.
02:10:46.000And I told him I had seen that, and he said he had looked at it with binoculars.
02:10:51.000He had seen it too, and he had looked at it with binoculars, and I got him to draw it, and he drew exactly what I had seen, essentially a lens-shaped thing with a clear dome on top.
02:13:28.000So we would explain those things pretty much the way they do now.
02:13:32.000You've seen the moon rising through the fog or you've seen satellite, you know, so much Alpha 23. But then there were cases where just like that, where they saw something we could not explain.
02:13:48.000But then we would tell them, but we wouldn't publish it.
02:14:09.000Well, if you hadn't been doing it, I mean, the thing that's very important about people like yourself is that you're so careful in how you document these things and the conclusions that you draw.
02:14:20.000Because I think this field of UFO study is filled with so many people that claim to have answers, claim to know things, and this is going to happen, and this is coming, and this is—disclosure's imminent, and this—and that's not—it never comes true.
02:14:36.000It's always—you're just left waiting for some new evidence that supposedly they have.
02:14:43.000And this is the more frustrating— Aspects of it, like when talking to Christopher Mellon, he's telling me there's high-resolution photographs and video.
02:14:56.000Because as a person, when I was 15, I didn't see anything.
02:15:00.000So I don't have that experience that you have.
02:15:02.000I just have this fascination with it, but also tempered by a little bit of cynicism.
02:15:08.000Because there's so much malarkey that's attached to this subject.
02:15:15.000And some of it is, you know, some of it is legitimate.
02:15:22.000And I think ufologists in general, you know, they want disclosure, disclosure, disclosure, but we don't know.
02:15:31.000You know, I'm very respectful of, you know, when I had the clearances, I was just very respectful of those clearances because there are people who know.
02:15:48.000There was one case in the Air Force files that was classified.
02:15:54.000It was marked in the index with a star, and I'm punching the card, and I put an asterisk there, and I had to ask Dr. Hynek, you know, what happened?
02:16:13.000That I can tell you, this came from a woman in Alaska called the Air Force because she saw what she thought was a flying saucer, certainly something that should not have been there.
02:16:29.000It was dark on the ground, but the sky was still light, and there was definitely, I don't know, a light.
02:16:39.000That looked like it was under power, that was flying west.
02:16:48.000Now, west of Alaska, you know, there's a Kaurai Peninsula and there's a Soviet Union.
02:16:57.000So she thought it was a UFO. So it was reported as a UFO, but it was...
02:17:07.000It was classified and it was called unidentified.
02:17:12.000Well, you know, that was an inside joke.
02:19:07.000No, 1947, looking for atomic explosions, Russian, you know, that's the way the Russian tests, atomic tests were detected first, was with balloons that had large antennas, you know, that were...
02:19:30.000The thing about the Ryan Graves stuff, though, is the physical characteristics and the way it moves.
02:19:36.000These things are able to stay stationary and 100 plus knot winds.
02:19:44.000I have not researched it and I wouldn't be the guy to research it.
02:19:48.000If we are being visited, how many different civilizations do you think are visiting us?
02:19:58.000Because if there's all these different characteristics that these beings have, if some of them look like tall, albino, almost like human beings with large eyes, some of them look like the greys, some of them look like dwarfs.
02:20:14.000Yes, and that's an embarrassment of riches in a way.
02:22:33.000But I'm not completely happy with that explanation.
02:22:40.000Nor am I. I'm not happy with it, but it's very compelling.
02:22:43.000What's fascinating to me is that it is inevitable that if technology advances the way it is currently within maybe even our lifetime or within another lifetime, another hundred years, we will most certainly have an artificial reality that you cannot discern, indiscernible between that and the reality we currently experience.
02:23:07.000So if that's inevitable, you would kind of assume that perhaps it's already taking place.
02:23:13.000And if it had already taken place, it would probably be very similar to what we're experiencing.
02:23:18.000Whereas enough of it seems fake and enough of it seems scripted, enough of it seems very coincidental how things line up that it almost does seem like a simulation sometimes.
02:23:35.000But there are also things that are strange but that we could research that we are doing a very bad job of researching.
02:23:45.000I got a phone call a couple of years ago from a woman who had been a student at a school, a high-level school.
02:23:58.000Preparatory, you know, school on the East Coast.
02:24:02.000And I had published a book in the 80s, early 80s, about UFOs.
02:24:08.000And she was head of a lecture bureau for the kids.
02:24:12.000And she thought it would be fun to bring me there to talk about flying saucers.
02:25:48.000Here, on the way to the airport, where we're passing now, that I'd like to describe to you, because it reminded me of your lecture and I had never heard that anywhere else.
02:26:02.000You know, there are trees along the freeway on both sides, beautiful.
02:26:06.000The freeway was dark and the sky was still blue.
02:26:11.000She said, I saw an elongated object, which was like, to me, twice 747. With what people would probably think of as portholes or windows.
02:26:27.000There were just lights along the thing.
02:27:01.000I could see the lights, and I could see the lights fading, and then there was nothing there.
02:27:08.000And I remember in your lecture in the 80s, you talked about things that could be going into another dimension, okay?
02:27:18.000But I thought that was interesting, and the kids thought it was an interesting idea.
02:27:28.000And yeah, in science, you know, people, you talk about different dimensions in physics and so on, but I had never seen it mentioned anywhere else, and there it was.
02:27:40.000You know, this thing faded from our universe, and I have no idea where it went.
02:28:59.000Now, if those things can just jump out of our universe and go somewhere else, That rewrites the whole thing.
02:29:11.000You know, we're not talking about propulsion the way we think about propulsion.
02:29:17.000We're not talking about, you know, environmental environment.
02:29:22.000We're not talking the passage of time, you know, in the same way that, you know, I would experience with my watch and so on.
02:29:31.000We're talking about something that has the rules are different.
02:29:35.000And we need to go up and start thinking along those rules, or at least the possibility of those rules.
02:29:43.000It doesn't prove that there is another universe five minutes ahead of us, but there could be.
02:29:53.000Papers that they publish saying there couldn't be flying saucers because there isn't life, you know, closer than, you know, 2,000 light years from us.
02:30:03.000And they would take, at the speed of light, it would take 2,000 years to come here.
02:30:08.000Well, there could be another universe five minutes ahead of us.
02:30:12.000It would take them five minutes to get here, okay?
02:30:15.000So that would explain why we have visitations throughout history.
02:30:22.000And they look the same throughout history because, you know, our technology, I mean, this technology or this microphone didn't exist 20 years ago.
02:30:58.000Yeah, that is a fascinating aspect of it.
02:31:01.000You would expect that if you thought about how fast our technology evolves, technology from 1947 from some other planet would be exponentially more advanced than what we experienced in 1947. Just based on how our technology evolves.
02:31:19.000And you'll have to think, I mean, we think about an aircraft in ways completely different.
02:31:24.000I mean, there are things that, yes, it came from the Wright brothers and so on.
02:31:30.000And there were speculation before on how you could fly.
02:31:34.000But what an aircraft does today is radically different.
02:31:47.000You go from this thing that Wilbur and Orwell Wright, you know, kind of like get it to take some air for a little bit to the Chinese jet, which is disguising itself from radar and travels at insane speeds.
02:32:01.000And then the possibility of other propulsion systems that have been kept under wraps.
02:32:36.000What's in the book is I've tried to continue the parapsychology experiments.
02:32:42.000We're done at SRI and now at lots of other places.
02:32:47.000And I got advice from people who said if you put yourself in some types of conditions, you could try to manifest another form of intelligence or another form of essentially an apparition.
02:33:09.000It's not necessarily related to UFOs, but if you can do that, that would teach you what you could do also with some of the encounters that people describe, that the witnesses tell me.
02:33:23.000So if I'm a good scientist, I should put myself in their place first and experience it myself.
02:33:30.000So I did a couple of sort of mental experiments like that in my home.
02:33:37.000I was alone at the time in my home, and nothing happened.
02:33:43.000And then nothing like what I expected happened.
02:33:49.000And then I was asleep one night, and all of a sudden I'm propelled outside of my body into another room, and there is an entity there, a massive sort of rectangular Mass, you know, entity.
02:34:11.000Clearly, you know, something that knows where it is and is thinking.
02:34:20.000I'm terrified, not terrified so much of the entity.
02:34:32.000But I'm terrified of being outside my body.
02:34:36.000I know people do experiments with that and there are people who can do it almost as well.
02:34:43.000I've never tried to do that, I think, because I've heard, you know, cautions that it's very dangerous because what if you don't find your way back?
02:36:23.000You know, there is a scientist I know well in Silicon Valley who also started a number of companies that are publicly traded now who invented the integrated circuit.
02:36:42.000He is a physicist from Italy with a PhD from Italy.
02:36:49.000To Silicon Valley in the very early days of the transistor.
02:36:53.000Worked with the initial teams in those places.
02:36:58.000And then, you know, there was a problem of how can you pack those things together in smaller and smaller places.
02:37:08.000And he's, you know, recognized as the father or one of the...
02:37:16.000Two or three people who invented the integrated circuit.
02:37:20.000So, for a long time he was celebrated in that capacity.
02:37:27.000What he didn't say is that he had seen the design outside of his body one night and that he had had multiple experiences outside of his body.
02:38:12.000But there are a number of people like that whose names are in the Wall Street Journal or in the New York Times who've achieved something, but you find out that they also had, and they experimented with it.
02:38:35.000In his case, he experimented systematically with...
02:38:39.000You know, the ability to go out of his body and...
02:38:43.000And acquire this information from some other source.
02:39:08.000Instantly to the place where this being was.
02:39:16.000There were also a couple of things that I never wrote about, not that I wanted to hide them or was afraid of them, but I wanted to understand the context of it before I did.
02:39:41.000In the late 70s, my wife, my first wife, Janine, was a psychologist.
02:39:49.000We bought a place in the country, in Northern California, a place in the redwood forest, because I wanted to re-experience the pleasure of...
02:40:03.000Doing astronomy as an amateur, you know, a small telescope.
02:45:04.000Well, as you know, Mr. Bigelow has done experiments of his own with lights and with things like that, putting interesting objects in certain places that are enclosed and seeing if something is going to look around or move them and so on.
02:46:28.000It's a repository of classified projects.
02:46:31.000So if you're cleared at a certain level and you want to know what else is there that you would have access to or where certain things are being sent to you and you're authorized to, you could look up the names.