The Joe Rogan Experience - March 12, 2025


Joe Rogan Experience #2288 - Jacques ValleĢe


Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 47 minutes

Words per minute

130.51239

Word count

21,863

Sentence count

1,802

Harmful content

Misogyny

4

sentences flagged

Hate speech

9

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, Joe talks with Hal Puthoff, who was a pioneer in the field of parapsychology and UFO research at SRI in the late 80s and early 90s.

Transcript

Transcripts from "The Joe Rogan Experience" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 The Joe Rogan experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day What's up sir?
00:00:13.000 Very good to see you Good to see you.
00:00:15.000 I really enjoyed our conversation last night.
00:00:18.000 We all went out to dinner and Hal Puthoff blew my mind.
00:00:23.000 As you know, I've known him for a long time.
00:00:26.000 Yeah, when did you meet him?
00:00:27.000 What year?
00:00:28.000 I knew him at SRI. Actually, I was at Stanford Research Institute before him in one of the very early internet research teams.
00:00:40.000 When there was no internet, it was called the ARPANET. It was a network of the Advanced Research Project Agency, and it was all, you know, computer experiment and so on.
00:00:52.000 We had engine number three on the internet at SRI in California.
00:01:00.000 Engine number three on the ARPANET. By the time I joined them, there were like 30 machines already.
00:01:07.000 And it was exciting.
00:01:09.000 And then, you know, Dr. Puthoff and Russell Tarr came in with a proposal to SRI to do parapsychology research at SRI, which had never been done.
00:01:25.000 And it was funny because they ā€“ so I was already there, you know, in a team.
00:01:30.000 What year was this?
00:01:32.000 What year?
00:01:33.000 Oh God.
00:01:37.000 74?
00:01:41.000 Wow.
00:01:42.000 Seventy.
00:01:43.000 So the ARPANET was around 74. Yeah.
00:01:47.000 Wow.
00:01:49.000 It was funny because I was in my office and the vice president of SRI came in, closed the door.
00:01:58.000 And said, Jacques, you know, you've published some things controversial under your name on UFOs, and you haven't lost your scientific reputation,
00:02:14.000 which is why you're here working for us at SRI on the ARPANET. But, you know, there's a proposal from Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Tark to do parapsychology research here.
00:02:29.000 And we've never done that.
00:02:32.000 And I said, well, you know, it's a very valid, I think it's a very valid area of research.
00:02:38.000 We should, you know, we're in the kind of institution that should do that.
00:02:42.000 He said, well, let me draw something on your whiteboard.
00:02:46.000 And he drew a scale.
00:02:49.000 Horizontal scale.
00:02:51.000 And on one side, there was a little square.
00:02:56.000 He said, this is the most we can expect in terms of funding for research in parapsychology.
00:03:03.000 You know, it's maybe at most a million a year.
00:03:07.000 Okay.
00:03:07.000 And here is what I manage, you know, in this division.
00:03:12.000 I drew a huge cube, you know, it said $150 million.
00:03:19.000 Should we jeopardize the research we do for Xerox and IBM and AT&T and Bank of America and so on just to do some research on, you know, psychic things?
00:03:34.000 And I said, well, you know, the reason we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on is that we do the research that they can't do themselves.
00:03:47.000 We do.
00:03:49.000 We go out and we take risks.
00:03:52.000 And I think we should take the same risk with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ because this could be very big.
00:04:03.000 There is a lot of literature on this already.
00:04:06.000 And we can bring the science into it.
00:04:09.000 They can bring the science into it.
00:04:12.000 And he said, well, there is a meeting of the board.
00:04:17.000 Of directors of SRI, you know, in two days.
00:04:21.000 And most of them are against it.
00:04:25.000 What do I tell them?
00:04:27.000 And I said, well, I can write up the reasons why in science you have to take chances, and this is science.
00:04:36.000 I mean, this isn't just engineering.
00:04:39.000 And he said, well, give me a memo by tomorrow at 12. So I went home and I wrote a two-page memo, which was confidential.
00:04:50.000 I don't think anybody has seen it, for the board explaining why there was scientific evidence, you know, enough of it so that good research could be done.
00:05:05.000 And I, you know, obviously that may have helped.
00:05:12.000 Getting the approval for them to come in.
00:05:15.000 And then after the first year, you know, they were there because, you know, the money kept coming and the results, you know, good scientific results came in.
00:05:28.000 So when you say parapsychology, specifically, what were you attempting to study?
00:05:33.000 So most of parapsychology, as the name indicates, has been studied by psychologists.
00:05:39.000 You know, people who have experiences and they relate their experiences and they have strange dreams, they have all that.
00:05:47.000 And then that has been structured by, you know, people doing experiments.
00:05:55.000 For example...
00:05:56.000 Trying to move objects with your mind, trying to, of course, send messages psychically to other people, or guessing what's written in a closed envelope, and so on, that kind of thing.
00:06:15.000 But again, those were done by good experimentalists, but where is the physics of that?
00:06:23.000 You know, because in physics, you know, those things aren't supposed to happen.
00:06:28.000 Without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of.
00:06:33.000 That's right.
00:06:34.000 You know, our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that.
00:06:41.000 But it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other.
00:06:55.000 Relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict.
00:06:58.000 I was reading something that was...
00:07:01.000 God, I glanced at it quickly and I was running out the door, but I was going to ask Jamie to pull it up.
00:07:10.000 There's new research that shows that human beings have the ability to detect the magnetic field the same way that birds do when they fly south and other animals they believe do when they navigate terrain.
00:07:24.000 They think that human beings have this ability, but perhaps it's something that we have ignored so long it's atrophied or it's not something that we use.
00:07:35.000 That's a question for a biologist or specialist of the brain, although it may not be in the brain itself.
00:07:44.000 It may be diffused in the organism.
00:07:48.000 So I'm not really...
00:07:51.000 Qualified, you know.
00:07:52.000 Well, I was going to ask Jamie to pull up the article, but the point being that there perhaps are senses that we're either not aware of.
00:08:00.000 Humans, like other animals, may censor its magnetic field.
00:08:03.000 Yeah, this is it.
00:08:04.000 Okay, this is from a while ago.
00:08:05.000 This is from 2019. Okay.
00:08:08.000 This is not the same article, but it's probably a rehash.
00:08:11.000 There's another similar one here from like a month ago that's the exact same title.
00:08:15.000 Yes, that's what I saw.
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00:09:17.000 You know, if you look at the history of the islands in the Pacific, like I spent some time in Tahiti and I looked at their traditions, they were navigating the Pacific fine.
00:09:31.000 They knew where they were going.
00:09:33.000 Now, part of that was navigating with the moon, but part of it was something else.
00:09:39.000 And on every ship, they had one man who was gifted in guiding.
00:09:48.000 With respect, of course, guiding with respect to what the ocean looked like and to the moon and so on.
00:09:55.000 But also, that's never really been explained.
00:10:00.000 They had an uncanny ability to get to the right islands, you know, on the way to their destination and to guide those ships.
00:10:11.000 Otherwise, they would have been, you know, they didn't have compasses.
00:10:17.000 And there are books now coming out.
00:10:20.000 Certainly, I found some of those books in Tahiti about the history of that and the research that's been done into those people.
00:10:34.000 But they were special people.
00:10:36.000 They were gifted.
00:10:39.000 That's not something that I could do.
00:10:43.000 Have you heard or listened to the telepathy tapes?
00:10:47.000 The telepathy tapes.
00:10:49.000 Are you aware of this?
00:10:51.000 Vaguely.
00:10:52.000 It's a podcast that's about nonverbal autistic kids that demonstrate psychic ability.
00:11:00.000 Provable.
00:11:01.000 They've got dozens of these cases on video where people in other rooms are looking at objects.
00:11:06.000 The child completely locked off.
00:11:09.000 Can't see them at all.
00:11:10.000 We'll say and write down what those objects are, colors, numbers in sequence, and very accurately.
00:11:17.000 And so they believe that this is something that, well, many of these parents have talked about it in the past, but felt foolish.
00:11:26.000 Felt like it was something that they would be ridiculed about, and so they didn't want to talk about it openly.
00:11:31.000 But once they started gathering up information, they got more people to open up about this, then they start documenting it.
00:11:37.000 And they start...
00:11:38.000 Coming up with ways to make sure that there couldn't be any possible way they could be communicating with each other.
00:11:45.000 And it's just utterly fascinating because they're showing that there is something going on.
00:11:50.000 There's some way of transferring information back and forth, including some of these teachers have figured out a way to not just receive but also transmit the same way these children have.
00:12:00.000 So people that aren't nonverbal and they aren't autistic.
00:12:05.000 These people are able to do it as well.
00:12:07.000 They've been able to create a bond with these children and communicate with them.
00:12:11.000 And there are companies in Silicon Valley that are heavily involved in advanced processing and advanced programming, specifically recruiting young men and women with that.
00:12:28.000 I have three grandsons that I love, and one of them isā€”it's not clear whether he's actually autistic in the current definition, but he certainly has some of those indications of thinking and getting information in ways that are very different.
00:12:53.000 Now, it may be that in evolution, The reason, you know, sort of, quote, lower animals can do it and we cannot is that we've developed other ways of getting information that are more reliable in the long run.
00:13:12.000 So it may be just one of the dormant, you know, abilities that we have that most of us don't.
00:13:20.000 You know, don't develop.
00:13:22.000 And we're not encouraged to grow it in school because it's, you know, disturbing for the rest of the class and so on.
00:13:30.000 And perhaps it's something that people had before language.
00:13:34.000 And language and then written language and then, of course, media sort of eroded those abilities.
00:13:41.000 Yes.
00:13:43.000 And you find that also in South America and in Australia.
00:13:51.000 Australia, New Zealand.
00:13:54.000 The indigenous people.
00:13:56.000 Yes.
00:13:57.000 Natives, but up to the current population. 0.85
00:14:02.000 Right.
00:14:02.000 So perhaps it's something that we all had and we've lost it.
00:14:06.000 Now, when you were initially studying parapsychology, what were the protocols that you were using?
00:14:13.000 How were you trying to determine whether or not people were capable?
00:14:20.000 You know, again, in my own, I've studied parapsychology more as a personal interest.
00:14:30.000 But Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Targ were doing it with scientific controls.
00:14:39.000 I mean, that was the point.
00:14:41.000 To look at it from a physics point of view.
00:14:46.000 You know, not just from a parapsychology or psychology point of view.
00:14:51.000 So they were designing tests that were more tied to physical quantities.
00:15:00.000 And one of the people that they brought in was Ingo Swann, who was an artist from New York.
00:15:07.000 He was very uncomfortable with California.
00:15:10.000 The sky is always blue.
00:15:12.000 You know, it's boring and so on.
00:15:14.000 He liked New York.
00:15:15.000 He liked the animation of the city and his friends and so on.
00:15:20.000 But I knew, of course, of him.
00:15:23.000 I had read some of the things.
00:15:25.000 So when he came to SRI, he told me that...
00:15:30.000 You know, remote viewing is one thing, parapsychology, but it should be applied to science.
00:15:38.000 And also, you know, it had to be applied to intelligence in the sense of, you know, the intelligence agencies were funding SRI to do this.
00:15:54.000 The three-letter, you know, agencies, there were a number of them who were very interested.
00:16:00.000 Because I knew that gift existed, you know, in pilots and in a number of people.
00:16:06.000 And so they were trying to figure out a way to utilize this for military applications?
00:16:10.000 Mostly to look at developments in the Soviet Union at that point.
00:16:15.000 Oh, so they were trying...
00:16:16.000 But also, you know, lost spacecraft.
00:16:19.000 They found lost spacecraft in the middle of a jungle in Africa and so on.
00:16:24.000 Lost spacecraft?
00:16:25.000 By parapsychology.
00:16:26.000 Whose spacecraft?
00:16:27.000 Ours?
00:16:29.000 No, it was Russian.
00:16:31.000 So they found it through, like, remote viewing?
00:16:34.000 Yes.
00:16:35.000 Really?
00:16:36.000 So Ingo was starting to go around the labs at SRI. He wanted to, he was...
00:16:46.000 He had never been in a scientific institution that's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else.
00:16:53.000 So he wanted to know...
00:16:56.000 He saw that as the next domain where parapsychology could be applied in a strict, scientific, rational way.
00:17:06.000 So I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to.
00:17:10.000 And I told him...
00:17:13.000 Do you know how a computer finds data?
00:17:19.000 You know, you have a computer, a machine full of, you know, chips.
00:17:23.000 How does it deal with the real world?
00:17:25.000 And he said, I have no idea.
00:17:27.000 I mean, I've never looked inside a computer.
00:17:30.000 And I said, well, there's three ways, you know, as a programmer, I can declare a variable.
00:17:37.000 I can say X is always going to be 3.14, okay?
00:17:45.000 But in many cases, I can give you the address of the place where I've put the data, but it's going to be different.
00:17:54.000 The address is going to be the same, but the data is going to change every time.
00:17:59.000 But I can give you the address.
00:18:01.000 It's 2314. 2314 is where I'm going to put the age of the patient.
00:18:09.000 But it's going to be different with every patient.
00:18:11.000 So that's direct addressing, but I can also put in that location, I can put the address of somewhere else, which I'm going to compute in my program, and that's indirect addressing.
00:18:30.000 And then there's the rest of the world, which is too big to put inside the machine.
00:18:34.000 I mean, the machine has a memory, maybe very big, but it's still limited.
00:18:39.000 So it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else.
00:18:46.000 You know, maybe the World Bank or the Library of Congress.
00:18:52.000 And there, I cannot give you the address.
00:18:55.000 But I can give you...
00:18:58.000 A sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with it.
00:19:10.000 And he said, you know, that's it.
00:19:15.000 That's what I need.
00:19:17.000 And then he came up with the idea of coordinate remote viewing out of that conversation I had with him.
00:19:26.000 So that was my contribution to the actual project at the beginning.
00:19:31.000 And then he thought as an address, he was going to take coordinates, longitude and latitude, because we were going to look atā€”they were going toā€”I wasn't officially part of theā€”but I wasā€” You know, I had passed the qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project.
00:19:55.000 So I was one of the good guys.
00:19:59.000 So we had many conversations with Garfi and so on in the lab with Ingo and later with Yuri Geller that were absolutely fascinating to me.
00:20:12.000 So I tried to...
00:20:14.000 In some cases, they needed...
00:20:17.000 To talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this, even though I wasn't, you know, on the project itself, but somebody who was inside, you know, so that the information didn't.
00:20:34.000 Get out into the world until they were ready to actually publish it because everybody wanted to kill their project.
00:20:43.000 I mean, there were so many skeptics saying, you know, this can't work.
00:20:47.000 They are making it up.
00:20:49.000 They are fooled by a prestidigitator.
00:20:52.000 You know, Yuri Geller is a magician and all those things.
00:20:55.000 Well, he is a magician, but he's also, you know, an extraordinary psychic.
00:21:03.000 So could you explain, so they're looking for this Russian spacecraft.
00:21:08.000 So how do they, what's the environment in which they remote view?
00:21:13.000 How do they set this up?
00:21:15.000 So Ingo, after the project was pretty much over, there was some continuous studies and Ingo brought me back to work with him.
00:21:33.000 Because he wanted to write a book that would be a synthesis of his methodology, you know, to answer your question of how do you do this.
00:21:43.000 And he had a very structured way of doing that with a number of...
00:21:53.000 What he wanted to do was train people to do that, hopefully to his level.
00:22:00.000 So it was step by step.
00:22:02.000 So there was a first...
00:22:04.000 You had a pad of paper, you know, and a pen.
00:22:08.000 And he was sitting at the end.
00:22:11.000 The table was about like this, you know, except there was nothing on it.
00:22:15.000 In a room that had nothing on the walls, no windows, there was a chair here and a chair there.
00:22:22.000 So he was away from me.
00:22:24.000 I couldn't see what he was reading.
00:22:26.000 He had a stack of targets.
00:22:28.000 That were places on the Earth.
00:22:31.000 And, I mean, obviously, the idea was to look at what was going on in, you know, Vladivostok or in, you know, some...
00:22:39.000 When you say a stack of targets, can you explain, like, is it a map?
00:22:43.000 Is it just coordinates?
00:22:44.000 It was just coordinates.
00:22:46.000 So just numbers?
00:22:46.000 He had gotten the maps.
00:22:48.000 And those were test things from, you know, geographic features on the Earth, cities, mountains, and so on.
00:22:58.000 So he would read out the coordinates, and I had a pad of paper and a number two pencil, so everything was very coded, you know, very straight.
00:23:10.000 And I would draw something that he called an ideogram.
00:23:16.000 So it could be like this, you know, it could be a curve, it could be...
00:23:20.000 And then, just first impression.
00:23:24.000 His...
00:23:25.000 The theory, which I think, you know, having experienced it, we did that for a year.
00:23:32.000 Now, I had a job somewhere else, but I was coming two mornings a week, you know, to work with him.
00:23:39.000 This was classified.
00:23:40.000 So, other people at SRI had no idea what was going on in that room that was dedicated to his work.
00:23:48.000 And he would read out, his idea was that we can all get that signal.
00:24:02.000 You know, there is a signal.
00:24:04.000 If I give you a longitude and a latitude, you potentially can describe what's there.
00:24:11.000 If it's a city, if it's a mountain, if it's some place in the country.
00:24:19.000 The reason you cannot is that the signal is overwhelming.
00:24:24.000 The signal is extraordinarily large, much larger than we can hold it in our brains.
00:24:31.000 So the people who do that have a way of processing the signal and recalling it.
00:24:38.000 And that's the secret.
00:24:41.000 That's the main thing to me that's come out of the SRI study, among many things.
00:24:48.000 So his idea was you have to stop.
00:24:51.000 The signal, you have to catch it.
00:24:54.000 It's going to be very, very fast, and most people just go on with their life.
00:25:00.000 It's just a passing thing.
00:25:03.000 But you can recall the signal.
00:25:06.000 So he would read out the coordinates again.
00:25:09.000 Now my little scribble is going to turn into maybe a series of waves and then a city with skyscrapers.
00:25:20.000 After, if we do that a number of ways.
00:25:22.000 Now, there are a lot of errors that can come in.
00:25:28.000 And then we can think, we recognize it, and try to name it.
00:25:33.000 That's the thing you shouldn't do.
00:25:35.000 You shouldn't try to name it, because to name it, put it in the other half of the brain, which is logical and rational.
00:25:44.000 So, the idea is to...
00:25:47.000 Label that as an error.
00:25:49.000 You know, it's not a city by the bay.
00:25:52.000 It's something else.
00:25:53.000 So we go on and we keep just going on.
00:25:56.000 So you have to do that with a very patient guide, you know, to train yourself to do that.
00:26:03.000 And SRI, you know, Hal and Ingo did that.
00:26:08.000 You know, very well in training a cadre of people who could be almost, not quite, but almost as good as Ingo.
00:26:16.000 And there were a couple who were as good as he was.
00:26:20.000 One time, no, I said, but Ingo, you know, I'm not psychic.
00:26:24.000 He said, well, you know, think about that because you've shown evidence of having, of understanding the process.
00:26:34.000 You know, there are some things that I did that That would be classified as psychic.
00:26:41.000 But I cannot do it.
00:26:43.000 I cannot control it.
00:26:44.000 Right.
00:26:45.000 It just happens randomly.
00:26:46.000 Yeah.
00:26:46.000 What kind of things?
00:26:48.000 Well, one time, I get there at 8.30 in the morning.
00:26:52.000 We close the door.
00:26:54.000 And he gives me a set of coordinates.
00:26:58.000 Longitude and latitude somewhere.
00:27:00.000 And I get very cold right away.
00:27:04.000 And I get dizzy.
00:27:05.000 You know, I mean, I have to grab the table, and I'm not drawing anything, and Ingo says, Jacques, what's wrong?
00:27:14.000 And I said, Ingo, I don't know where you're sending me, but I'm cold, I'm trembling, I'm afraid, I'm afraid of falling, and, you know, I really don't feel well.
00:27:29.000 And he said, you're on top of a peak in the Andes.
00:27:34.000 Whoa! 0.71
00:27:35.000 So he pulls out the thing.
00:27:38.000 He gives it to me that comes from, you know, a photograph of the Andes taken from an airplane with this peak.
00:27:50.000 And they computed the coordinates of the peak and that's what he was giving me.
00:27:55.000 And I was there.
00:27:57.000 You felt it physically.
00:27:59.000 Did you see it or did you just feel it?
00:28:00.000 No.
00:28:01.000 It was just a physiological reaction on my whole body.
00:28:05.000 Exactly as if you were on a peak.
00:28:07.000 I was freezing cold and I was very afraid of falling.
00:28:10.000 Wow.
00:28:10.000 I was falling.
00:28:14.000 Had you had any of these that didn't work?
00:28:17.000 Did they try any?
00:28:18.000 Oh yeah, sure.
00:28:20.000 You should not use me as a remote viewer to launch a tomahawk.
00:28:29.000 Over somewhere.
00:28:31.000 That's a problem that, of course, the Army has.
00:28:34.000 Is it good enough so we can launch a rocket to destroy that thing?
00:28:40.000 Who is the best at it?
00:28:42.000 Who's the best at remote?
00:28:43.000 Is there one person that's consistently accurate?
00:28:46.000 There are a couple and they...
00:28:48.000 They are not...
00:28:50.000 You know, Ingo was known because he wrote about it and so on.
00:28:56.000 Many of them...
00:28:57.000 Joe McMoneagle is probably the best one alive today.
00:29:04.000 He described a structure and he described a ship.
00:29:14.000 That was being built by the Russians, which was a super submarine in a hangar somewhere.
00:29:22.000 And the Navy just laughed at him.
00:29:25.000 They said, that's crazy.
00:29:27.000 It's in a hangar away from the sea.
00:29:31.000 So why would you build a ship when you don't have the ocean?
00:29:37.000 Well, it turned out he was right.
00:29:40.000 And it was a super class.
00:29:42.000 A new Soviet submarine.
00:29:45.000 He described the inside of the building, which had no windows and so on.
00:29:51.000 And, yeah, I mean, from a satellite, they could see the building, but they couldn't see inside the building.
00:29:57.000 He described what was inside the building.
00:29:59.000 He described the submarine.
00:30:01.000 He described the length.
00:30:03.000 And, you know, he actually measured it.
00:30:06.000 Psychically.
00:30:07.000 And that turned out to be right.
00:30:09.000 And then when the submarine was built, they brought some bulldozers and they dug a channel to the sea and off it went.
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00:31:44.000 I had heard about this.
00:31:47.000 Those things were extraordinary.
00:31:48.000 I had heard about this, but I didn't know it was that accurate.
00:31:53.000 Yeah, that happened, and he was...
00:31:58.000 As opposed to, you know, one of us, he was right, you know, enough of the time that you could rely on what he was describing.
00:32:08.000 And also, they came up with a way of measuring, actually quantifying the value of your perception.
00:32:19.000 So, I told Ingo, you know, let's do another one because I'm on a roll here, you know, after this peak.
00:32:26.000 In the end, he said, no, Jacques, you know, you're going home now.
00:32:30.000 I said, it's nine o'clock, you know, we've only been here half an hour.
00:32:35.000 Why are you sending me home?
00:32:37.000 I mean, this is great.
00:32:38.000 I got it.
00:32:40.000 He said, yeah, you got it.
00:32:42.000 You don't need all the levels.
00:32:43.000 I mean, you got to the top level.
00:32:45.000 You were there.
00:32:48.000 Why did he want to send you home?
00:32:50.000 He said, I want you to stay with that feeling.
00:32:53.000 I don't want to do another one that you'd miss.
00:32:57.000 So I want you to keep that in mind because you got the whole thing.
00:33:02.000 Is this based on past experiments and the way they were achieving results?
00:33:07.000 Yes.
00:33:08.000 They were grading every test subject and so on.
00:33:13.000 So he didn't want to give you another experience.
00:33:15.000 He wanted you to take that experience and just sit with it.
00:33:18.000 Keep the experience with me during the day because I got the whole signal.
00:33:24.000 Right.
00:33:25.000 And did you feel like that if you did that, it would aid you in your ability to do it in the future?
00:33:30.000 It would...
00:33:33.000 Yes, I would lose that sense of direct access to something that bypasses the brain.
00:33:45.000 Basically, I was trained in mathematics and physics and astronomy, so I use the part of my brain that's analytical, and I'm a good programmer, computer programmer.
00:34:03.000 This is grabbing a signal which has everything in it, you know, and being able to catch it very fast and just get a little bit of information and then catch it again, recall it.
00:34:19.000 You know, that's what we were doing that, you know, five times, six times, ten times until making sure that you don't try to name it, you don't try to put, you know, a description on top of it.
00:34:34.000 It's just stay with the signal.
00:34:36.000 And I think that's an amazing contribution from what Dr. Puthoff and Targ and some of their subjects did.
00:34:45.000 Was there a specific...
00:34:48.000 A specific way that you achieved a state of mind that made you more able to perceive these coordinates or perceive what signal you're getting from remote viewing?
00:35:01.000 I had a lot of admiration and love for Ingo for what he was capable of doing.
00:35:13.000 His art and his personality and so on.
00:35:16.000 He was, you know, very much admired in the whole team.
00:35:22.000 And here I think it was the structure also of the experiment.
00:35:29.000 You know, I trusted what he was trying to teach me.
00:35:34.000 So you were open to it?
00:35:37.000 Yes.
00:35:37.000 You trusted it so you were open to it?
00:35:40.000 You know, both the admiration and the trust.
00:35:44.000 Did he ask you to put your mind in a specific place?
00:35:47.000 Was there a way of counting yourself into...
00:35:49.000 The idea is not to put my mind into it.
00:35:53.000 Just to let it...
00:35:55.000 Just let it come.
00:35:56.000 Because my mind is analytical.
00:35:58.000 Right.
00:35:58.000 Of course.
00:35:59.000 And, you know, I was always very good in math.
00:36:10.000 I mean, you have to be, if you're going to be an astronomer, so I can be very structured and so on.
00:36:19.000 This is not structured.
00:36:20.000 This is boom.
00:36:22.000 And then you can begin to analyze it, but you have to analyze it keeping your rational mind away from.
00:36:34.000 So you just have to let the information come to you somehow or another and not try to imagine the information or create the information or perceive it.
00:36:43.000 Not to project what it is.
00:36:44.000 Right, just let it happen to you.
00:36:47.000 And so you had seen him do this.
00:36:50.000 And you knew that this was a valid field of research.
00:36:55.000 So you were just open to it and you just sat down there and tried to let it happen to you.
00:37:00.000 Did it happen any other time that resembled the Andes Peaks, where you have that overwhelming feeling of cold and falling?
00:37:10.000 Did you have that feeling with anything else?
00:37:13.000 Yes, I had some of that, but this one was just completely shocking.
00:37:22.000 I think that's a characteristic of when you really get it.
00:37:28.000 There is no question.
00:37:31.000 And you know in the movie Patton?
00:37:35.000 Yes.
00:37:35.000 Patton is sent to North Africa because to fight Rommel.
00:37:41.000 Rommel is there with his tanks and the American army is going to ā€“ isn't ready to invade Europe but wants to start controlling the Germans in North Africa.
00:37:55.000 He's sent there.
00:37:56.000 He lands.
00:37:57.000 There is a ā€“ You know, a lieutenant there with a jeep that takes him to the place where there was a battle and the Americans were decimated by Rommel, who was just a genius German general.
00:38:18.000 Great with tanks, just like he was.
00:38:22.000 Patton considered him as his major enemy because both of them understood tanks.
00:38:30.000 And so Patton gets in the jeep.
00:38:33.000 That's in the movie.
00:38:34.000 It's just absolutely perfect.
00:38:36.000 I've checked that this was historical, exact in the movie.
00:38:41.000 They drive to the site of the battle.
00:38:46.000 And they get toā€”in the desert in the jeep.
00:38:50.000 And they get to a fork in the road.
00:38:52.000 And, you know, the driver takes to the left.
00:38:56.000 And Patton said, son, you know, why don't we go to the right?
00:39:01.000 Because that's where the battle was.
00:39:05.000 And the driver says, sir, you know, with all due respect, I mean, I was there in that battle.
00:39:14.000 It's on the left.
00:39:15.000 He said, trust me, go to the right.
00:39:18.000 And they go to the right and they get to the edge of the plateau where you see a big plane.
00:39:24.000 And Patton says, this is where the battle was.
00:39:28.000 Hannibal came from the left with his elephants.
00:39:33.000 And the battle was there.
00:39:38.000 And I had been there.
00:39:42.000 I was there.
00:39:44.000 Patton thought that he was reincarnated from a Roman general who had been at that battle against Hannibal and his elephants.
00:39:57.000 And, you know, the poor driver said, you know, how did this happen?
00:40:05.000 You know, how did I get here with this general who thinks he's reincarnated, you know, who fought against Hannibal?
00:40:13.000 And I've worked with people, as you know, I've run a number of venture capital funds with people who had that kind of intuition, you know, and you think finance is driven by greed and so on, but at some level, greed doesn't really matter.
00:40:40.000 It's getting to the truth of something, especially in venture capital, where you're going to change the way things are done with these gadgets, with computers, with rockets and so on.
00:40:54.000 You're going to go to a new generation of things.
00:40:57.000 So it hasn't been done before.
00:40:59.000 And the financial people, you've got 10 engineers in front of you who can do it.
00:41:07.000 There is one who will succeed, nine who's going to fail.
00:41:11.000 And you have to pick the thinking that's going to succeed.
00:41:20.000 I mean, it's not the money, and it's not the technology.
00:41:26.000 It's the mind of the driver.
00:41:31.000 Who say, no, let's go to the right, let's not go to the left.
00:41:35.000 You know, I mean, Patton was extraordinary.
00:41:38.000 I mean, he was a remote viewer.
00:41:41.000 He demonstrated that again and again.
00:41:44.000 There are some interesting books that I've collected from some of his lieutenants.
00:41:52.000 You would also have to consider that's an extraordinary state of mind, to be a general in a world war.
00:41:59.000 And the consequences of everything you do and what is at stake in this war has got to be a state of mind that's very, very unusual.
00:42:09.000 With so many consequences and so much pressure that it probably makes some signals more clear if you have that ability to perceive them.
00:42:18.000 Because you must be in a heightened state of awareness because of the consequences of your life.
00:42:27.000 Exactly.
00:42:29.000 But you also have to be detached.
00:42:32.000 I mean, you know, eventually he's going to go to the battlefield where the bodies of soldiers have been killed.
00:42:41.000 They're burning tanks and everything else.
00:42:43.000 They show that in the movie.
00:42:45.000 I mean, that's where he's supposed to go.
00:42:48.000 But, you know, his mind is at a different level.
00:42:56.000 When did they first start?
00:42:58.000 Researching this.
00:42:59.000 When did they believe that this was an ability that some people had?
00:43:04.000 Oh, you know, way back in antiquity.
00:43:08.000 Really?
00:43:09.000 Yeah.
00:43:10.000 And, you know, they had seers that the king would go consult whether he...
00:43:27.000 He should engage in a war. 0.99
00:43:31.000 The Greeks had the Pythia, who was a woman. 0.98
00:43:38.000 They had an area, a volcanic area, where there were fumes coming out of the earth that was supposed to be one of the doors to the underworld and so on.
00:43:49.000 and there was a special cult around that place.
00:43:54.000 And the king would go there before a great decision and would ask the message from the underworld or the message from the mind of the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth.
00:44:17.000 So that has been regarded as ā€“ you know, Hitler, Adolf Hitler was in his ā€“ before the war, you know, when he got to be the leader of Germany ā€“
00:44:43.000 he exhibited and he very much believed in those.
00:44:48.000 Those powers.
00:44:49.000 I think he got to the point where he trusted it too much.
00:44:53.000 He started making mistakes and that could be used against him.
00:44:57.000 Well, he was also doing a lot of drugs.
00:44:59.000 You have to get the ego out of the way.
00:45:02.000 Of course, that's the hardest thing for us to do.
00:45:06.000 Especially to a narcissist dictator who's on drugs.
00:45:09.000 That's right.
00:45:12.000 Yeah, that's right.
00:45:13.000 Well, that's always the age-old problem with Sears.
00:45:17.000 Like, how do you know who's a charlatan and who's real?
00:45:20.000 Because there's always a bunch of fake psychics. 1.00
00:45:23.000 There's fake palm readers, fake tarot card readers, people that are just con artists, that are just trying to swindle people out of money.
00:45:31.000 But that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have these bizarre abilities.
00:45:40.000 That is something that people have sort of recognized forever, but it's always been dismissed, especially in this modern-day reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are, you know, tried, true, proven, agreed upon, you know, and then trust the science, like this concept that...
00:46:00.000 Well, I think as, you know...
00:46:04.000 In science, I mean, the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things and, you know, will give you guides to, you know...
00:46:19.000 Well, I think that's what they've done with the telepathy tapes and I'm hoping the success of this and then they're going to do a whole series on it where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage so you're going to be able to see it for yourself.
00:46:32.000 I'm hoping that this stops the ridicule because there's a bunch of scientists, and I think this is with the UAP topic as well, the UFO topic as well.
00:46:44.000 I think there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much bullshit out there and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool.
00:46:54.000 And to a very respected scientist whose research is very important as you were talking about with the IBM thing where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are dedicated towards these.
00:47:05.000 Why would you risk all that and the credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room, finding coordinates, pretending they're on top of a mountain, all that kind of stuff?
00:47:18.000 Well, fortunately...
00:47:22.000 You know, certainly, you know, in California, there are people who can take risk, you know, and put a few million dollars behind something.
00:47:37.000 Shout out to Stanford.
00:47:39.000 Yeah.
00:47:40.000 And, you know, as you know, I come from France, and in France, it's very, very hard to do that.
00:47:47.000 Because the system is very structured and very conventional and so on.
00:47:52.000 Even though France has had some of the brightest people in that kind of research.
00:47:57.000 So it's just a cultural limitation of the culture?
00:48:00.000 Yeah.
00:48:01.000 Sort of everything has to be rational.
00:48:05.000 Yeah.
00:48:06.000 America is a little more chaotic.
00:48:08.000 And they also ā€“ as you know, France has had ā€“ For a long time has had a project on UFOs, an official project, and that takes reports from the public and they investigate them.
00:48:26.000 It's a very small team, but they have access to all the resources of French research.
00:48:32.000 So they can get the weather people, they can get the Air Force, they can get the radar people, they can get all of that.
00:48:40.000 So they can tap into the resources of a lot of different departments of the government.
00:48:45.000 So it's very powerful.
00:48:48.000 So they will explain, they find a rational explanation for about 95%.
00:48:55.000 It's about 95% of all the reports, which is true.
00:48:58.000 I agree with that.
00:49:00.000 You know, I've been there.
00:49:01.000 So it's about 95% you can explain away.
00:49:04.000 It's not hoaxes.
00:49:06.000 Those are people who really think that they've seen something unusual.
00:49:12.000 But what was unusual to them may have been the moon rising through the fog and it looks like an elongated disk.
00:49:21.000 And then after a while, things change and so on.
00:49:26.000 Bald lightning.
00:49:27.000 Yeah, there's a few things.
00:49:29.000 They really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over.
00:49:34.000 There are about 200 or 250 possible physical things that really could surprise you, that are unusual, that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that they are in the presence of a UFO. that would create conditions under which a normal person would Then what's interesting is the other 5%.
00:49:57.000 Yes.
00:49:58.000 The other 5% is in your face.
00:50:01.000 You know, I have...
00:50:04.000 Reports of something that moved like the Tic Tac, you know, from the French Air Force in the 50s.
00:50:12.000 There was a French jet over Morocco that was flying and there was a radar tracking the jet.
00:50:22.000 And I had the reports from the French Air Force with the chart and that the thing he was chasing went up.
00:50:32.000 You know, all in a fraction of a second went to the top of the atmosphere.
00:50:36.000 You know, just like the Nimitz case.
00:50:39.000 So those things are not new.
00:50:42.000 I mean, they are in the files if you take the trouble to look at the files.
00:50:46.000 And they're in the files far back enough in history that it's impossible to imagine human technology achieving these things.
00:50:53.000 Absolutely.
00:50:54.000 Well, especially in the 50s.
00:50:56.000 I mean, we didn't have anything that had gone into space.
00:50:59.000 Yeah.
00:51:00.000 There's a bunch of cases that...
00:51:02.000 Rule out the possibility of human technology when you're talking about people using propeller planes and seeing these things.
00:51:10.000 We were at a time technologically where it's not possible to imagine that someone had gone that far beyond us.
00:51:18.000 Now we are in that time where you see things, you go, well, how much of that is some sort of top secret government program, some military program, and they have drones that can move at extraordinary speeds with some undisclosed...
00:51:32.000 It's the propulsion system.
00:51:33.000 That's possible today, at least theoretically.
00:51:37.000 We entertain those ideas.
00:51:39.000 But back then, this is one of the most fascinating things.
00:51:42.000 I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months.
00:51:46.000 And there was this series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters, not just ā€“ right now I'm on The Invisible College, but the last ones that I read were ā€“ The ones on various contacts that people have had and the similarity of these stories.
00:52:06.000 And they go way back, way back, way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact.
00:52:12.000 Like right now, I think in people's minds, the gray aliens are so iconic, a flying saucer like that.
00:52:20.000 That's a copy of The Sport Model from Bob Lazar's Adventures.
00:52:25.000 These things are in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them.
00:52:31.000 You look for them.
00:52:32.000 If you see something, you could imagine that you could twist it up in your mind and make it like that.
00:52:38.000 But the problem is these stories go way before that.
00:52:44.000 They're too similar.
00:52:46.000 They go a long, long way back, and there's too many that are very, very similar to what we're talking about today, to the point where a rational person would have to say, maybe there's something more to this.
00:53:04.000 What do you got there?
00:53:05.000 Peter Robinson: I brought you this.
00:53:07.000 It's a token.
00:53:09.000 It's not a coin.
00:53:10.000 It's a token from Burgundy in France from the ā€“ a few centuries ago.
00:53:20.000 The Duke of Burgundy was under attack.
00:53:24.000 There was a lot of turmoil in French politics and the king was fighting the noble, the great nobility and so on, was in cahoots to get rid of the king and so on.
00:53:39.000 And they were going to be attacked.
00:53:42.000 And he needed money to raise an army.
00:53:46.000 And he appealed to people in Burgundy to send him money.
00:53:51.000 And this was a token that the king, the duke, you know, would give people who had given him money to raise this army.
00:54:05.000 And on the face of it is this disk that's holding up, that's protecting.
00:54:15.000 The land from forces above.
00:54:18.000 You know, there are all these arrows raining down on the land, and the land is protected by this flying disc.
00:54:27.000 So, it doesn't mean that they had seen a flying saucer at that time, but the idea has always been there of, you know...
00:54:38.000 Disc-like objects that were not meteors, that were not all the natural explanation, that were real discs.
00:54:48.000 You find that in legends.
00:54:49.000 You find that in history way back.
00:54:53.000 Jamie, can you see if you could find an image of this we could show people?
00:54:56.000 You found it?
00:54:56.000 Yeah, that's it.
00:54:57.000 Yep.
00:54:58.000 Yes.
00:55:00.000 Wow.
00:55:02.000 And you see, it's protecting the land and it's hovering in the sky, protecting it from all the thunderclouds above.
00:55:14.000 Well, you know, there are a few of those things in history.
00:55:18.000 And, you know, as you know, I've collected those with a group of...
00:55:26.000 Couldn't that be interpreted as a shield?
00:55:30.000 Well, it is shown as a shield, you know, that's going to stop all those arrows.
00:55:36.000 Right.
00:55:37.000 But that's what they used to stop arrows back then.
00:55:40.000 They used a shield.
00:55:41.000 Yes.
00:55:41.000 So doesn't that just make, I mean, that doesn't seem to me to be a UFO. It seems to me to be a shield that they would protect.
00:55:48.000 Yes, but it's also, you know, it's not exactly the shape of a...
00:55:56.000 You know, of a shield.
00:55:58.000 Most shields are, you know, more oblong, but some of them are round.
00:56:04.000 But the point is it's hovering in the sky protecting the land underneath.
00:56:12.000 I think some of the more compelling stuff is like the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts, the Vimanas and all these different flying crafts that people described.
00:56:22.000 They've always been a thing that people have described.
00:56:25.000 And we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records because, of course, when people described something like that, especially if there was some sort of being associated with it.
00:56:42.000 Yeah.
00:56:42.000 You know, it could be the devil.
00:56:43.000 It could be that.
00:56:44.000 Right, right.
00:56:45.000 So they had to see a priest and confess and, you know, and they were in trouble.
00:56:52.000 If you reported that thing, most of the time you'd be in trouble because it couldn't be a normal thing.
00:57:00.000 You'd be a heretic.
00:57:01.000 Today, they just fire you from wherever you work.
00:57:06.000 Yeah, probably.
00:57:07.000 Or think maybe you're a kook. 0.62
00:57:08.000 At least they don't burn you alive anymore.
00:57:12.000 Yeah, that's lucky.
00:57:14.000 But people do have a fear, a legitimate fear, of being ridiculed, and that could stop their ability to be promoted within whatever organization they're in.
00:57:24.000 You don't want to think, oh, there's Kooky Bob over there who thinks the aliens are watching us.
00:57:29.000 The best cases I get are from executives in Silicon Valley whose family has seen something or who have seen something.
00:57:40.000 And they've described, you know, frankly, UFOs to me.
00:57:45.000 And they cannot publish it.
00:57:50.000 So that looks way different.
00:57:51.000 That's right.
00:57:51.000 So that coin is much more compelling because that looks like something flying in the sky above the city.
00:57:57.000 That doesn't look like a shield at all.
00:57:58.000 And what is that peak at the bottom of it?
00:58:00.000 It's the same thing, whatever.
00:58:02.000 Yeah, that's very different.
00:58:04.000 Much more compelling.
00:58:04.000 You can tell that those things have been in the culture.
00:58:08.000 Yeah, now I'm back in, Jim.
00:58:09.000 They've sort of repressed in the culture.
00:58:12.000 And the anthropologists don't want to look at that.
00:58:16.000 There's a really old painting.
00:58:20.000 Like a biblical painting of these people that look like they're flying around and like seated in these crafts.
00:58:27.000 They're in the sky.
00:58:29.000 I've never seen any sort of a conventional explanation.
00:58:32.000 What is that artist depicting?
00:58:35.000 So usually the explanation when you read what the historians have said, it's supposed to be some god or some higher level entity that's coming to protect people and it's supposed to be some god or some higher level entity that's But when you look at the detail, I mean it really looks like a machine.
00:58:59.000 It really looks mechanical.
00:59:01.000 See if you can find that image, Jamie.
00:59:02.000 You know the one I'm talking about, right?
00:59:05.000 Yeah, that's exactly it.
00:59:06.000 Thank you.
00:59:07.000 The one on the lower right, well, both of them, but the lower, like, what is that?
00:59:11.000 That looks like a craft.
00:59:12.000 It looks like someone seated in a craft.
00:59:15.000 It's an envoy from God or an angel who's been sent.
00:59:22.000 But the problem with those is that the painting...
00:59:25.000 It may relate to something that was written in the 3rd century.
00:59:30.000 The painting is a 16th century painting.
00:59:33.000 So we didn't look at that that much.
00:59:37.000 I mean, it's interesting like the one with the Virgin.
00:59:42.000 So it may be that the artist was witness to something and he wanted to memorialize it and he put it in his painting.
00:59:53.000 But it's not tied to the time of the Virgin.
00:59:58.000 Right, right, right.
00:59:59.000 They just added it in there.
01:00:02.000 What is that supposed to be in the background?
01:00:04.000 We stayed away from that.
01:00:05.000 We wanted to go to records of somebody having actually testified that he saw something or she saw something.
01:00:13.000 Right, not just artwork.
01:00:15.000 Right.
01:00:16.000 But it just is very bizarre that this...
01:00:19.000 Artwork continually depicts people in crafts.
01:00:24.000 And look, what is that thing?
01:00:25.000 Yes.
01:00:27.000 Like, what the hell?
01:00:28.000 And there is a communication with the man.
01:00:31.000 Who's looking up at it.
01:00:32.000 He's looking at it, and there is a sense of that he's actually seeing it and having a sense of what it is.
01:00:40.000 It's like an Easter egg someone put into the painting.
01:00:42.000 So this may be that the artist sort of, you know, put that.
01:00:48.000 In as a side, of course, the main theme is the Virgin and the Child.
01:00:56.000 What's that one over there, Jamie, in the second row that says Inside Ancient?
01:01:00.000 Yeah, that one.
01:01:02.000 What the hell is that?
01:01:03.000 That's what really freaks me out is the paintings on cave walls that look just like greys. 1.00
01:01:11.000 These bizarre paintings of things that just...
01:01:17.000 Look like they are people wearing helmets.
01:01:20.000 And the most interesting to me come from the Sahara.
01:01:25.000 You know, I have friends who are anthropologists who worked with the UN in Africa and so on and in part of the Sahara.
01:01:39.000 And one theory they have is that the culture that eventually moved to Egypt came from the Sahara.
01:01:53.000 So I say, well, the Sahara is just sand.
01:01:55.000 Well, it's just sand today.
01:01:57.000 But we know that at one time it was flourishing.
01:02:02.000 There were forests.
01:02:03.000 There was water.
01:02:05.000 In fact, there is water, but it's underground water.
01:02:09.000 It's a large amount of underground water.
01:02:12.000 There was a sea there at one time.
01:02:19.000 There probably was an earlier civilization, and some of those come from the Tassili.
01:02:24.000 The Tassili is a region in the Sahara where there are a lot of those representations.
01:02:30.000 So there were a lot of people living there at one time, and they painted that on the rocks.
01:02:35.000 See if you can find some of those, Jamie?
01:02:37.000 Yeah.
01:02:38.000 You see similar things that indigenous people in Australia have painted. 0.99
01:02:45.000 It's all over the world.
01:02:47.000 Yes.
01:02:48.000 Completely separate environments, very similar features in these cave paintings.
01:02:55.000 And, well, I think archaeologists wouldn't disagree with that, I think.
01:03:02.000 They would say, the problem is that we don't correlate it.
01:03:06.000 I mean, they didn't write anything.
01:03:08.000 Right.
01:03:09.000 You know, the...
01:03:10.000 It's open to interpretation.
01:03:12.000 We don't have a good correlation, so we have to keep looking for that.
01:03:17.000 But that's fascinating.
01:03:19.000 But in our book, we made the rule that, number one...
01:03:25.000 We don't want isolated human figures, even with suits and so on.
01:03:31.000 We really want a device, a flying device.
01:03:36.000 Otherwise, you could fill 40 books with images of strange creatures.
01:03:45.000 I mean, what are the things that people see?
01:03:51.000 Around the ranch now, you know, in Utah, in Arizona, in all of that.
01:03:59.000 So, have to be careful on the boundaries of those things.
01:04:06.000 But we wanted to get to a place where there was testimony about somebody seeing a flying disc that was...
01:04:18.000 Strange to them in their culture.
01:04:21.000 And remember, in those cultures, those were agricultural cultures.
01:04:25.000 So with people who were used to interpreting the weather, looking at the phases of the moon, looking at the rising time of the sun, and all that was important for their...
01:04:36.000 For their agriculture.
01:04:39.000 So they knew their environment very well, better than we do as people living in cities.
01:04:47.000 So we can take that to some extent that has a scientific value, especially when you can build a model of a number of those across different...
01:05:03.000 But in that book, we were careful to break the book into sections.
01:05:12.000 You know, corresponding to different evolution of the culture, explaining first a couple of pages what was happening during that time in terms of new inventions, like when the telescope was invented, when certain things were discovered and so on.
01:05:30.000 So we were careful to put it in context with every ā€“ reinterpreting the ā€“ The description by the witness in the context that was appropriate.
01:05:44.000 Well, it was very thorough and very objective, which is what I really enjoyed about it, where you were very clear what we absolutely knew and very clear what could be nonsense and myth, and that one of the things that keeps occurring over and over again is these similar stories.
01:06:04.000 The stories are really similar from the 1700s to the 1800s into the 20th century.
01:06:10.000 And then you, again, now it gets more muddy because now you have a bunch of people that realize that there's value in concocting a story and then talking about it and selling a book.
01:06:24.000 And there's, I think there's people that are grifters and I think they...
01:06:29.000 You know, I probably had a few of them on.
01:06:31.000 They are capitalizing on this desire that people have for stories.
01:06:38.000 Also now we think that the government has the answer, so people spend their time.
01:06:48.000 You know, writing to different agencies and listening to reports from pilots, which is fine, of course, and people in the military, people in the intelligence community.
01:07:02.000 Those are very valuable because now they have instruments to actually measure what they see on an F-18 and so on.
01:07:13.000 And they are covered by radar and by AWACS and everything else.
01:07:16.000 So we can rely on that.
01:07:18.000 So scientists and many people like the numerical aspect of it.
01:07:24.000 I don't do that.
01:07:25.000 I mean, I don't pretend to have access.
01:07:28.000 I mean, we had access under Bigelow and under Bass to some of that, including some of the classified things that had happened.
01:07:41.000 But there is a much richer pool of data, which is...
01:07:46.000 You know, a friend tells me about a sighting in the country somewhere.
01:07:52.000 I can go there, I can go see the people, and I can find out exactly what happened.
01:07:59.000 And I continue to do that, and that's most of my data.
01:08:04.000 And it's ten times bigger than the stuff they talk about from the Pentagon, you know.
01:08:09.000 I mean, it's real data from that.
01:08:12.000 I don't need to have a clearance to go see the people and sit down.
01:08:19.000 If I'm lucky, they'll invite me for lunch and, you know, I can talk to the kids, I can talk to the wife, I can talk to the people who took care of the cattle, and they'll tell me.
01:08:33.000 That's where most of my information is really coming from.
01:08:38.000 And it's not, you know, it's just very much in your face.
01:08:43.000 And it's consistent.
01:08:46.000 How consistent are the shapes of the crafts?
01:08:52.000 It's a tough question, you know.
01:08:56.000 Many of the descriptions have to do with disks.
01:09:03.000 And eggs as well, right?
01:09:05.000 Different sizes.
01:09:07.000 Some of them are very large.
01:09:11.000 A number of descriptions have to do with, for a long time, with cigar-shaped objects.
01:09:19.000 Cylindrical, rounded at the end.
01:09:22.000 Sometimes with...
01:09:23.000 What people describe as windows that may just be openings with light, you know, in the side of it.
01:09:31.000 Doesn't have to be what we think of as a window.
01:09:35.000 And then you have some irregular shapes, you know, just balls of light that...
01:09:45.000 Physicists interpret it as maybe plasma, but plasma doesn't survive in the air, you know, shouldn't survive in the air more than a minute maybe, but people have, you know, seen some of those things for minutes and longer, you know, long enough to take pictures of it and so on, and it's not necessarily glowing.
01:10:10.000 It's not necessarily luminous.
01:10:12.000 The way, you know, plasma would be.
01:10:15.000 So, we don't know what they are.
01:10:19.000 And they've been reported all over the world.
01:10:22.000 Again, there are, you know, paintings of that kind of thing from the 18th century or the 17th century.
01:10:31.000 So, that I've collected and published.
01:10:37.000 So, we have these different categories.
01:10:41.000 What are the most compelling paintings that we could find right now from like the 1700s or 1800s?
01:10:53.000 I think there is a beautiful painting of hills and three blue spheres that are not moving, that seem to be suspended in the air, that seem to be suspended in the air, but it's not moving.
01:11:11.000 Very distinct blue spheres that were seen and somebody, you know, recorded it and somebody did a painting of the scene.
01:11:22.000 Those are things that people wanted to remember because they knew it was...
01:11:27.000 And what year was this painting from?
01:11:29.000 I don't remember the year.
01:11:31.000 I couldn't tell you.
01:11:32.000 But it's a very old painting.
01:11:33.000 16th, 17th century.
01:11:35.000 Do you know the name of it?
01:11:37.000 So Jamie could try to find it online?
01:11:40.000 No, I could send you the picture.
01:11:43.000 Okay.
01:11:44.000 So, there's also a bunch of depictions of egg-shaped crafts.
01:11:52.000 Yes.
01:11:53.000 This is very common as well, right?
01:11:55.000 Yes.
01:11:57.000 The couple that you had in one of your books from, was it the mining people from, was it California or was it Nevada?
01:12:08.000 I wrote a book with Paola Harris called Trinity about an egg-shaped object that happened in 1945 near White Sands.
01:12:25.000 And now we have reinvestigated it.
01:12:28.000 The first book was criticized appropriately by someone who said, I hadn't gone to enough of the written records.
01:12:37.000 Well, now I've done that.
01:12:38.000 So we've republished the book.
01:12:41.000 It's called Trinity.
01:12:43.000 And it covers three cases.
01:12:47.000 In all three cases, the object is X-shaped, the size of a medium-sized truck.
01:12:54.000 It would fit in this room.
01:12:56.000 It would be about the size of this room.
01:13:01.000 Then there is a case in Socorro, and there is a case in Valenzol.
01:13:06.000 Socorro and Valenzol, and people have concentrated on the first one, you know, the one that, because it's two years before Roswell, and there were witnesses there.
01:13:20.000 You know, it was where there were no witnesses.
01:13:23.000 There were people who came later who found the stuff and they reconstructed the story and it's a very interesting story.
01:13:30.000 But at Trinity, they saw it arrive and they saw it crash.
01:13:36.000 And they were there for 10 days afterwards watching the recovery.
01:13:41.000 And they went inside.
01:13:43.000 One of them went inside and his father went inside also.
01:13:48.000 So we have a very rich description of that.
01:13:51.000 And where is it in the literature?
01:13:54.000 Nowhere.
01:13:54.000 I mean, you know, Paola Harris found this, did research for four years on that, and then told me about it, and then we did another four years of research together at the site.
01:14:07.000 And we found a lot of correlations.
01:14:10.000 But the Socorro case and the Valensol case...
01:14:14.000 Could you explain, tell me before we move on to those other cases, what correlations did you find?
01:14:19.000 Well, in all three cases, it's an egg-shaped object.
01:14:26.000 In all three cases, there are traces that could be seen, could be...
01:14:34.000 Described.
01:14:35.000 It could be analyzed.
01:14:37.000 In all three cases, the beings are short.
01:14:41.000 They are about three feet, three and a half feet.
01:14:46.000 They breathe air.
01:14:49.000 What kind of extraterrestrial is it that comes here and breathes the air?
01:14:54.000 If we go to the moon, we're not going to breathe the air.
01:14:58.000 How do we know that it breathes at all?
01:15:00.000 How do we know that these things breathe at all?
01:15:03.000 They had no breathing equipment.
01:15:05.000 They were functioning normally.
01:15:08.000 They had two eyes, a small nose, a small mouth.
01:15:12.000 But couldn't they possibly be some sort of a creation?
01:15:16.000 Instead of being a biological entity, couldn't they be some sort of artificial life?
01:15:21.000 So I've asked Gary Nolan about that.
01:15:27.000 I'm not a biologist.
01:15:29.000 And I think...
01:15:35.000 It would be known if somebody had created a metahuman.
01:15:41.000 I don't mean somebody.
01:15:42.000 I mean another life form from somewhere else.
01:15:45.000 There were stories of the Russians actually thinking about creating a dwarf, you know, human to pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy, you know.
01:16:06.000 So they were trying to get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter.
01:16:14.000 But the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians in the 50s, you know, before Sputnik, that the Russians were trying to create a humanoid.
01:16:33.000 Well, I know that the Russians, there was some talk of them trying to create a human-ape hybrid. 0.92
01:16:39.000 They were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human-chimpanzee hybrid for war, which is a terrifying thought.
01:16:50.000 First of all, if they were successful, how terrifying would that be?
01:16:53.000 But just that they were interested in doing that, creating a race of chimpanzee-human warriors.
01:17:05.000 There was no...
01:17:06.000 To my knowledge, there hasn't been any correlation of that.
01:17:11.000 And the creatures that are described in Socorro in New Mexico and in Valensol in France, so those are three cases that I've been very involved in from the beginning, from day one, involve creatures that are about...
01:17:32.000 You know, three feet tall, that breathe our air, recognize our signals, you know, communicate with us in funny ways, even mentally.
01:17:43.000 I mean, the witnesses describe getting images in their minds and so on, in all three cases.
01:17:53.000 What's interesting is people can argue about Trinity all they want, like they argue about Roswell, but the case in Socorro and the case in France, in Valensol, were investigated by governments, you know, not by...
01:18:10.000 You know, the local UFO group, although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases.
01:18:18.000 But they were, in Socorro, it was first the, you know, the local police.
01:18:23.000 The local policemen saw the craft and the beings and described what happened.
01:18:30.000 He was terrified, but, you know, when the thing took off, he thought it was...
01:18:36.000 Something to do with some new gadget or some work in the desert.
01:18:41.000 It's an area that's still in the same state today.
01:18:44.000 I've gone back there with Dr. Hynek's son, you know, with Paul Hynek a few months ago.
01:18:52.000 I've gone several times there.
01:18:54.000 And so after the police...
01:18:58.000 Turned out the FBI was in town on another case.
01:19:01.000 They had no jurisdiction in New Mexico for that particular case.
01:19:05.000 It wasn't a federal case.
01:19:07.000 But they helped preserve the traces, you know, the FBI way.
01:19:12.000 And the local police was happy to have them there.
01:19:16.000 And then there was the state police came in.
01:19:20.000 And did an investigation and then people from the base, you know, came in with experts in explosives, experts in recovery of weapons and rockets and so on, because they thought it might be something that had come from...
01:19:42.000 You know, from the Trinity Range that was out of its way and had crashed near Socorro, in which case they might have responsibility, including financial responsibility if something was destroyed or whatever.
01:19:56.000 So this was very serious.
01:19:59.000 I have the whole file.
01:20:00.000 Okay, it's a big file.
01:20:02.000 Nobody's looking at it.
01:20:03.000 I mean, the investigation in Washington now, they are saying we're going to look at the cases of the last 12 months.
01:20:10.000 Well, what kind of science is that?
01:20:13.000 Can you imagine scientists reading this?
01:20:16.000 And this is the way they are going to solve the UFO problem?
01:20:19.000 By looking at vague pictures of lights in the sky for one year?
01:20:25.000 You know, why don't they go back to those records?
01:20:28.000 Those are federal records.
01:20:29.000 Okay?
01:20:30.000 The case in Valensol, five agencies of the French government.
01:20:34.000 So, this guy...
01:20:36.000 He was a farmer.
01:20:38.000 He had a field where he was growing plants to make perfume.
01:20:44.000 So this was high-level, you know, expensive crop.
01:20:48.000 This wasn't just, you know, alfalfa or something.
01:20:51.000 And he goes there at five o'clock in the morning because, you know, he wants to do someā€”to water the thing and so on before the sun is up because it's going to be veryā€”it's in the south of France.
01:21:05.000 It's going to be very hot.
01:21:07.000 You can't work in the field during the early afternoon.
01:21:11.000 So he wants to be done with that.
01:21:13.000 He sees this contraption.
01:21:15.000 You know, in the middle of the field, crushing the plants.
01:21:20.000 And so he sneaks in, and he's paralyzed.
01:21:25.000 Now, there is an egg-shaped object, just like the one at Trinity, just like the one in Socorro.
01:21:34.000 It's the size of a mid-sized truck.
01:21:38.000 There are two creatures in front of it, human, you know, human-looking, two eyes.
01:21:45.000 Breathing air.
01:21:46.000 They look at him, sort of amused, and one of them has something on his belt.
01:21:52.000 He takes out points.
01:21:53.000 I pointed at him, and that's when he's paralyzed.
01:21:57.000 Now, he's not, you know, as you know, I'm not a doctor, but I've gone to doctors about what kind of paralysis is that, where you can stand up and watch something, you just can't move.
01:22:10.000 They said, well, there is a type of paralysis that will just inhibit the motor, you know, motor nerves, but you'll still be...
01:22:20.000 Up and aware.
01:22:22.000 You're not going to fall down, you know, in a heap.
01:22:26.000 And from there, he sees them going back inside the thing.
01:22:32.000 The thing takes off.
01:22:33.000 It takes off like a shot out of a gun and it vanishes in mid-air.
01:22:38.000 Now, he goes to see the gendarmes.
01:22:42.000 This man is fairly wealthy.
01:22:45.000 He owns...
01:22:47.000 Quite a bit of, you know, several fields, expensive crops.
01:22:52.000 His wife is the mayor of the town.
01:22:55.000 The gendarmes are going to be very careful with him because he's also from the resistance in World War II. When he was young, he joined the resistance, and the resistance in that part of France fought in the Alps against the Germans.
01:23:13.000 You know, they were regarded as heroes of World War II. And so the gendarmes are very careful with him.
01:23:23.000 There are some things he's not going to tell the gendarmes because he thinks...
01:23:29.000 And I went there.
01:23:32.000 He didn't want to talk to anybody from Paris.
01:23:34.000 He didn't want to be on TV. He wanted to concentrate on his experience because he thought there was going to be something else.
01:23:45.000 And he was aware of some of his buddies.
01:23:49.000 This is a part of France where people talk, but they have secrets too.
01:23:53.000 I mean, historically, you know.
01:23:58.000 Things like that in the U.S., you know, parts where people are not going to talk to strangers.
01:24:03.000 The only reason I could go there was that I went there with a lady who was from Paris, was with the government.
01:24:13.000 She was with the Gaulle's government.
01:24:15.000 She had the rank of ambassador, and she had a vacation home there.
01:24:19.000 So we went there for three days, and she knew everybody there.
01:24:24.000 And he told us.
01:24:27.000 What he thought might happen again.
01:24:34.000 So he didn't want the gendarmes mixed in with what he was doing.
01:24:38.000 Why did he think that something was going to happen again?
01:24:44.000 Evidently, and he swore us to secrecy about what it was, but evidently there was communication with the beings when he was there.
01:24:55.000 And so these beings are just tiny, look like people.
01:24:58.000 Did they have different features than us?
01:25:00.000 Or was it just human features?
01:25:02.000 They are just like the ones at Trinity and like the ones at Socorro.
01:25:07.000 So in that book, you have actually two, two, and three.
01:25:13.000 You have seven creatures that are humanoid, that breathe our air, that seem to understand us, you know, the visual.
01:25:25.000 You know, there is visual contact.
01:25:28.000 Well, we can have visual contact with animals.
01:25:31.000 I mean, that doesn't mean they are human or meta-human, but there is messages that come through all of that.
01:25:43.000 The witnesses are reluctant to talk about in all three cases.
01:25:47.000 So in Socorro, finally, the Air Force went there.
01:25:51.000 They threw the Air Force out because the Air Force said, well, you know, that's just a gadget from the base.
01:26:00.000 And that was stupid.
01:26:03.000 So they finally...
01:26:04.000 I sent Dr. Hynek there.
01:26:07.000 And Dr. Hynek asked me to organize the files that were coming.
01:26:13.000 I was at Northwestern at the time, you know, working, working.
01:26:18.000 I had done my PhD already, and I was on the staff of the Computing Center.
01:26:23.000 And we had a small team trying to help, you know, free, trying to help Hynek keep the files together.
01:26:31.000 So we were...
01:26:33.000 You know, in communication with him the whole time.
01:26:36.000 And then I put the files together and I have a file.
01:26:41.000 You know, this is the official file.
01:26:43.000 So these people were reluctant to talk about what these creatures were communicating with them.
01:26:49.000 But did they talk about it at all?
01:26:51.000 It was very personal.
01:26:54.000 Very personal.
01:26:55.000 Yeah.
01:26:57.000 There had been a communication that transcended.
01:27:02.000 Their life.
01:27:04.000 There was something else, something outside.
01:27:08.000 So you could almost call it sort of a religious feeling, but it wasn't about divinity or God specifically, but it was about, you know, the other side of life, a bigger meaning for life.
01:27:33.000 That's their interpretation.
01:27:35.000 It may not be ā€“ there may be other things that they are trying to communicate.
01:27:42.000 But it was very profound.
01:27:44.000 Yes.
01:27:45.000 And all three cases had similar stories in that regard.
01:27:49.000 And in all three cases, there are traces that were measured.
01:27:54.000 There is technology of salt and And in the case of Socorro, people came up with all kinds of ideas that maybe it was a balloon, you know, I mean, a special balloon.
01:28:13.000 There were only 12 of them in the world.
01:28:16.000 Well, in the book, people haven't noticed it, but in the book, I was able to solve that problem because I found a transcript of a conversation with a man who was head of a motor pool on the army range at White Sands.
01:28:43.000 And he had given his team some instructions on, you know, how to make sure that the motor pool was working really well because white sand is so big.
01:28:57.000 When people went home...
01:28:59.000 They could get lost, you know, at White Sands.
01:29:03.000 And then how are you going to find them?
01:29:05.000 I mean, there are tracks, but there is no paved road at the time.
01:29:10.000 How are you going to, you know, find them?
01:29:13.000 So you can launch a helicopter the next day looking for, you know, a lost car somewhere with a family in it.
01:29:21.000 But so he made rules that they had to call periodically to report where they were when they went home.
01:29:29.000 You know, 50 miles away across the desert.
01:29:32.000 So they could find them if there was something wrong with the car.
01:29:37.000 He's driving home with his family.
01:29:40.000 This is after the Socorro thing is done.
01:29:43.000 You know, they are all interrogating Lonnie Zamora, the cop who was driving that thing.
01:29:51.000 And he sees a light over the mountains in the southwest.
01:29:58.000 Towards Mexico.
01:30:00.000 But it's still, you know, it's still in New Mexico, but it's in that direction.
01:30:06.000 A light that's not a star.
01:30:09.000 It's really bright.
01:30:10.000 And the light gets brighter and brighter.
01:30:15.000 And his car dies.
01:30:17.000 Now he's head of a motor pool for the base.
01:30:22.000 Everybody reports to him and they have all the, you know.
01:30:26.000 All the army cars and the trucks and everything else, the half-tracks. 1.00
01:30:33.000 So he looks at that thing.
01:30:37.000 He tries to call his team.
01:30:40.000 The radio doesn't work.
01:30:42.000 The radio should work.
01:30:44.000 The radio doesn't work.
01:30:46.000 And the thing gets very bright, and then it recedes.
01:30:51.000 It goes away the way it...
01:30:53.000 Apparently it came in.
01:30:55.000 We don't know if it came in or if it just got bright.
01:31:00.000 The car starts.
01:31:02.000 He goes home and then the next day he goes to his shop.
01:31:07.000 He gets his staff together.
01:31:10.000 He says, you guys are going to take this car apart.
01:31:13.000 I want to see every screw and every piece of it and every level and everything and the seats and so on.
01:31:21.000 I want to see all of that on the floor.
01:31:24.000 And you're going to test it and you're going to tell me what's changed or if anything, how that car stopped in the middle of the desert.
01:31:33.000 And they couldn't find anything.
01:31:35.000 And that report was an official report that was never published.
01:31:42.000 And it nails the whole thing, you know, that this was not a balloon.
01:31:47.000 This was not an hallucination.
01:31:49.000 The patrolman wasn't drunk, like they accused him of, or making up a story and so on.
01:31:58.000 Lonnie Zamora, when Dr. Hynek interrogated him, He said he wanted to talk to a priest and confess to a priest before he would talk to Dr. Hynek.
01:32:10.000 That's the kind of man he was.
01:32:12.000 And they essentially destroyed this guy because they thought it was, you know, bad reputation for the town of Socorro.
01:32:22.000 The tourists wouldn't come there because they'd be afraid of strange things flying.
01:32:27.000 And the Air Force said, well, it's a one witness case.
01:32:31.000 You know, there's this patrolman who saw this.
01:32:34.000 There were 12 witnesses.
01:32:37.000 There was a guy who was driving on the main road, the same road where the patrolman had been driving, who the thing passed right over his car.
01:32:48.000 He thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went right over the roof of the car into the desert.
01:32:57.000 Well, he called the...
01:33:00.000 Called the police and reported it.
01:33:02.000 There's a written report.
01:33:04.000 He signed that report.
01:33:06.000 We know his name.
01:33:08.000 Without him having any knowledge of what happened.
01:33:11.000 That's right.
01:33:12.000 I mean, he saw this some...
01:33:15.000 Independently.
01:33:16.000 One of your gadgets tried to drive me off the road.
01:33:20.000 There were several people on the road on the other side of this little desert thing that's...
01:33:29.000 When it rains, the water rains all over the place, washes everything out, just sand and rocks.
01:33:37.000 But on the other side, there is a main road.
01:33:40.000 Several people on the road saw the thing take off and reported it because it was just so strange.
01:33:47.000 So the Air Force put that aside.
01:33:49.000 They neglected to, you know, this was...
01:33:53.000 And they just kept saying it was a one-witness case.
01:33:57.000 It wasn't.
01:33:58.000 Most of those cases where they say it was one witness, you have to look for the other guys.
01:34:06.000 And again, I brought you something.
01:34:11.000 Can I tell you about it?
01:34:13.000 Sure.
01:34:13.000 What did you bring?
01:34:13.000 So this is something that the case was so interesting that Dr. Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the Prime Astronautics.
01:34:30.000 It took a couple of years for them to agree to look at it and so on to look at the analysis.
01:34:40.000 This happened in a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska.
01:34:45.000 But on the Iowa side, there is this town, this suburb, with a park.
01:34:52.000 This is about a week before Christmas in 1977. People are there having a good time in the park in the evening.
01:35:05.000 It's getting dark.
01:35:11.000 And I want to make sure I'm...
01:35:20.000 They see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes there.
01:35:27.000 It looks like a round box with lights around it, and the lights are going around.
01:35:36.000 And it's pretty high, and it's flying over the town.
01:35:42.000 And then a mass of steel, liquid steel, falls in the park.
01:35:55.000 It falls on the levee in the park.
01:35:59.000 There is about half a ton of it.
01:36:02.000 Liquid, glowing.
01:36:05.000 It has nothing, no business being there.
01:36:09.000 So you have this mass of metal.
01:36:13.000 So is it glowing?
01:36:15.000 You say it's molten?
01:36:16.000 Yes.
01:36:16.000 The weather is freezing.
01:36:18.000 We know the temperature and everything else.
01:36:21.000 It's freezing.
01:36:22.000 The grass is on fire around it.
01:36:25.000 They call the firemen.
01:36:27.000 The firemen call the police.
01:36:28.000 The police gets there.
01:36:30.000 And the firemen get there.
01:36:32.000 They stop the fire.
01:36:34.000 The fire would have died by itself.
01:36:37.000 There's no problem there.
01:36:39.000 They take pictures of the thing glowing.
01:36:42.000 I have the pictures, infrared, you know, polaroid pictures of the thing glowing in the grass, burning.
01:36:57.000 I mean, liquid.
01:36:59.000 And it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours, and it cools down gradually.
01:37:05.000 And then people take pieces of it as souvenirs.
01:37:08.000 So I have the pieces of it, and there they are.
01:37:12.000 Now, there was analysis done by two labs.
01:37:19.000 Obviously, the question is, where did that come from?
01:37:24.000 And there is chromium.
01:37:27.000 Titanium and iron, which you can find in ordinary steel, but this isn't really...
01:37:35.000 The composition isn't exactly what you'd expect industrial steel to be.
01:37:42.000 So, one of the chemical analyses is done at the lab, you know, for industrial steel.
01:37:55.000 Investigators call the company.
01:37:58.000 The company says, yes, we make steel.
01:38:03.000 So we have furnaces, but we empty the furnaces.
01:38:08.000 This is over a weekend.
01:38:10.000 The factory is closed.
01:38:12.000 There would be nobody there.
01:38:14.000 And so there's no liquid steel in our factory on that day.
01:38:19.000 They have a ton of it.
01:38:21.000 They have, yeah.
01:38:23.000 This is a half a ton that they found sitting there.
01:38:25.000 So then they call the Strategic Air Command because B-52s fly over that town.
01:38:34.000 B-52 is a big thing.
01:38:37.000 And the people saw something in the sky.
01:38:40.000 So, you know, maybe it was the Air Force, you know, politely laughs at them and says, you know, we carry atom bombs, but we don't carry furnaces with molten steel.
01:38:53.000 Okay, so go look somewhere else.
01:38:56.000 And they say, good luck.
01:38:57.000 By the way, this is a way you could test it.
01:39:00.000 This is a way.
01:39:01.000 I mean, the Air Force, we thinkā€¦ People think, number one, there is nothing in the Blue Book files worth looking at.
01:39:08.000 That's not true.
01:39:10.000 I spent four years.
01:39:12.000 Dr. Hynek had copies of all the files.
01:39:14.000 The files were not classified.
01:39:17.000 There were a few random cases that were classified for other reasons, not because of the UFO, because of where it was or whatever, that I didn't have access to.
01:39:29.000 I was just a graduate student, a PhD.
01:39:34.000 I went through, we convinced, Dr. Hynek and I convinced the Air Force to do a computer file of everything they had about UFOs.
01:39:45.000 Because before then, it was just paper files all over the place.
01:39:49.000 And if they were challenged by Carl Sagan or somebody like that at the time, they wouldn't be able to provide good statistics.
01:39:57.000 So they agreed for me to...
01:40:01.000 Get the files and redo, punch them into punch cards, take it to a computer, redo the statistics, looking at their explanation and then my explanation for the cases.
01:40:17.000 I did the whole thing.
01:40:20.000 Thousands and thousands of cases.
01:40:22.000 They were right that majority were explainable.
01:40:27.000 What we were looking for were the ones that were not explainable.
01:40:30.000 This one cannot be explained.
01:40:33.000 And there are enough of those, there are hundreds of those, that scientists could have looked at.
01:40:40.000 I went through the Air Force Base with my French passport.
01:40:47.000 At the time, I wasn't a citizen.
01:40:49.000 You know, you had to wait five years before you could apply for American citizenship.
01:40:55.000 So I was working.
01:40:56.000 I had a small contract that was completely, you know, unclassified to recalibrate the statistics of the Blue Book files.
01:41:08.000 So I had access to essentially all the Blue Book files.
01:41:12.000 But I went into the base with a clearance for three days with Dr. Hynek to go to the division that was looking at the UFOs and spend those three days with Major Quintanilla and his staff going for the files.
01:41:34.000 And they had lots of remains of things and stones and strange metals and so on, which at the end of the project, all that was thrown away.
01:41:44.000 So this is ā€“ everything is going on now.
01:41:48.000 This is for you, by the way.
01:41:50.000 Oh, thank you.
01:41:50.000 This is for your special collection of weird things.
01:41:54.000 Yeah.
01:41:55.000 This is essentially steel.
01:41:59.000 Here we go.
01:42:00.000 So that's the area where the mass of steel is glowing.
01:42:08.000 And so this steel you can make on Earth?
01:42:12.000 Yes.
01:42:13.000 It's a composite of a bunch of different materials?
01:42:17.000 It's not exactly the steel that you would use in construction, but it is essentially steel.
01:42:24.000 And so I gave my samples to...
01:42:31.000 You know, to Stanford so that we could redo the analysis, not the chemical analysis, but the isotope analysis.
01:42:42.000 So Dr. Nolan and I took it to the lab.
01:42:46.000 Dr. Nolan had two series of instruments that could do the analysis.
01:42:51.000 We did both, and we confirmed essentially this.
01:42:54.000 So there was no special...
01:42:58.000 Change in the isotope ratios.
01:43:01.000 If there was, that would indicate that somebody had manipulated the isotopes, which is not a hoax.
01:43:09.000 Then you know for sure it's not a hoax because that's high-caliber scientific laboratory work and you need special instrument experts to interpret it.
01:43:26.000 Right, but that wasn't the case, right?
01:43:28.000 So the isotopes hadn't been manipulated.
01:43:31.000 Have they found, because I've heard this about Gary Nolan in particular, that they do have samples of things that they can't explain?
01:43:39.000 So I gave him essentially all my samples, all the ones that I could relate to, reliable cases, because I don't want to give him junk.
01:43:50.000 There's a lot of junk floating around.
01:43:53.000 People think it's strange.
01:43:56.000 So, yes, we're going through all those, you know, and the idea is to publish it as we go, you know, to publish everything as we go.
01:44:11.000 There are some that give the indication of being, but, you know, as always in science, we have to be careful.
01:44:20.000 Our colleagues will say, Very good.
01:44:24.000 You know, congratulations.
01:44:25.000 You did that with one instrument.
01:44:29.000 Now you should redo it with a different lab, with a different machine, and see what they find.
01:44:37.000 Because Dr. Nolan has ā€“ some of those machines are machines that he's invented at Stanford.
01:44:46.000 But they are ā€“ I mean, this is not a biology.
01:44:52.000 This is steel.
01:44:53.000 And this is iron or copper or whatever.
01:44:57.000 So we have to redo it with a different...
01:45:01.000 So in this case, we have redone it with a different line of machines.
01:45:06.000 There is a French machine that costs something like $6 million that would fill half of this room.
01:45:14.000 That's extremely good for testing for isotopes but only on four different elements.
01:45:22.000 With the other machine, the biological machine, we get the whole spectrum.
01:45:30.000 So except for some of the extreme elements like radioactive elements and so on.
01:45:37.000 So what samples have they found that have been the most compelling?
01:45:42.000 We're still working on that.
01:45:44.000 you know.
01:45:46.000 This paper is important, even though we didn't find something out of range, but that's, in a way, that's validation of what you have to do when somebody presents you with that kind of sample.
01:46:04.000 Those are the steps.
01:46:05.000 This is where the science is today.
01:46:08.000 This is what the technology can tell you, okay?
01:46:11.000 So this is sort of a stake in the ground, even though we didn't find E.T., okay?
01:46:18.000 But we didn't find E.T. science.
01:46:21.000 We found physical evidence of something.
01:46:22.000 But we've got the technology.
01:46:23.000 Now we know how to do it, you know.
01:46:26.000 One problem we had was that neither one of us is...
01:46:32.000 You know, an expert in materials.
01:46:35.000 We're not experts in steel.
01:46:38.000 So the people who ā€“ this was reviewed by, you know, people who were materials experts.
01:46:46.000 And they came back with a whole page of questions.
01:46:49.000 Why didn't you look at this?
01:46:51.000 Why didn't you measure that?
01:46:53.000 So Dr. Nolan and the team had to redo about a year of work before they would accept the paper.
01:47:01.000 So that's what you have to go through before scientists will look at it.
01:47:06.000 But this one is in the literature, in the scientific literature.
01:47:11.000 It's not in some UFO magazine in New Mexico.
01:47:15.000 And now we have the methodology.
01:47:19.000 We can apply it to the others.
01:47:21.000 There are some that we've done with one machine where there are indications.
01:47:28.000 Now, at Stanford, Stanford, it's funny because you've had three generations of people.
01:47:36.000 You know, at Stanford, looking at this, you know, before Dr. Nolan, I was there, and I was gathering data, and I was using the computer to do statistics and so on.
01:47:49.000 And I worked for Professor Sturrock, who unfortunately died a few months ago at over 100, but he was still working in astrophysics.
01:47:59.000 And, you know, I was on his astrophysics staff for a couple of years, looking at...
01:48:06.000 At galaxies looking at the structure of the sun and looking at certain types of strange stars that had special emissions and so on.
01:48:19.000 So I was this computer guy and we also looked at UFO materials, especially a case from Brazil which he published.
01:48:35.000 He got financial support to do the isotope analysis, and some of it was arguably different.
01:48:46.000 So we want to redo it.
01:48:51.000 He donated all his materials to me when he retired.
01:48:56.000 So I have all that, and I passed it to Dr. Nolan.
01:49:02.000 So Stanford now has...
01:49:04.000 It's acquiring a reputation as being a UFO analysis place.
01:49:09.000 Yeah, for sure.
01:49:10.000 But it went from essentially solar physics and very high energy physics, you know, that I was working on with Dr. Sturrock, to me with the computing center and now with Dr. Nolan in the medical school.
01:49:26.000 So we've had, you know, they are in trouble.
01:49:30.000 Well, I'm glad you're willing to do that.
01:49:34.000 I had heard that there was some alloy that was very difficult to comprehend that someone would be able to construct, that it would cost billions of dollars to make this particular type of alloy, that they had discovered something along those lines.
01:49:49.000 Well, I've seen those books.
01:49:54.000 I've heard those things on the Internet.
01:49:57.000 The question is, you know, scientists will want to look at this.
01:50:02.000 They want to know, well, how did you do it?
01:50:06.000 How did you prepare the sample?
01:50:10.000 We were given access to a sample that, in fact, is very strange.
01:50:18.000 And it has different colors on it.
01:50:20.000 It fits in the palm of your hand, you know, so it's a significant size.
01:50:27.000 Remember, Dr. Nolan is looking at individual...
01:50:30.000 The human cells, you know, with this device, okay?
01:50:33.000 So, you know, anything more than 10 grams, you know, we don't need.
01:50:39.000 I mean, we can work with very little material.
01:50:43.000 Although, of course, we want to do different things with different parts of it.
01:50:48.000 But this thing had some very interesting incrustation of a red deposit.
01:50:56.000 And all the people who had looked at it, including some official labs and some signed disclaimers saying they would not scrape off the interesting deposits that were on it.
01:51:13.000 Well, all of them did.
01:51:15.000 I mean, after signing the thing.
01:51:17.000 By the time it came to me, most of the...
01:51:22.000 Interesting red stuff had been scraped off.
01:51:24.000 So I don't know what they did.
01:51:28.000 And I don't know what machine they used.
01:51:31.000 And they didn't publish a paper.
01:51:33.000 It took us four years to publish this paper.
01:51:36.000 The paper came from Stanford with four PhDs writing it.
01:51:43.000 So the bar is pretty high.
01:51:47.000 If you're going to actually publish this in an international review.
01:51:52.000 Yeah, and with an interesting title, too.
01:51:54.000 So we'll do others.
01:51:55.000 You know, that's the plan.
01:51:56.000 If people want to find this, it says, improve instrumental techniques, including isotope analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics.
01:52:10.000 Yeah, he doesn't talk about UFOs.
01:52:12.000 There it is.
01:52:13.000 That's a very tricky way.
01:52:16.000 Relevance to aerospace forensics.
01:52:19.000 People read between the lines.
01:52:21.000 What do you mean?
01:52:23.000 Aerospace.
01:52:23.000 Who's aerospace stuff?
01:52:25.000 So this is the question.
01:52:26.000 If these encounters happened, if this egg-shaped craft was real, and if these small people-like things that breathe air did communicate with people.
01:52:39.000 Where are they from?
01:52:41.000 Is this something that has always been here?
01:52:43.000 Is this something that visits here?
01:52:45.000 Is it something that is here?
01:52:48.000 So, in the BAS project of Mr. Bigelow that was funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency, we had a template of things that...
01:53:06.000 The Pentagon wanted to have.
01:53:09.000 And it said, you know, trajectory, composition, luminosity, radiation, and so on.
01:53:17.000 Well, yeah, those are the things that you'd need if you were looking at a Russian aircraft, you know, or you were looking at, you know, the Nimitz thing, whatever it was.
01:53:34.000 You know, is that really relevant?
01:53:37.000 I mean, in science, you don't start from the conclusions.
01:53:41.000 You're going to look at this.
01:53:44.000 This is not something you've seen before.
01:53:47.000 And you go on from there.
01:53:48.000 You know, in the Nimitz case, we've all seen those photographs.
01:53:53.000 And they are...
01:53:54.000 I've stopped counting how many...
01:53:57.000 Papers are from the New York Times on down with the picture of, you know, the photograph that the F-18 was taking, the pilot took from the thing.
01:54:11.000 Well, nobody mentions that this isn't a photograph.
01:54:17.000 People think it's a photograph.
01:54:19.000 So in the file, there is a memo from the folks at Raytheon.
01:54:25.000 Raytheon makes the device, which is a big thing that you hang under the wing of an F-18 that's going to take these images.
01:54:36.000 It's an image.
01:54:38.000 It's not a photograph.
01:54:39.000 It's looking into the infrared.
01:54:44.000 It's not looking at the details.
01:54:46.000 There is a number painted on the thing.
01:54:49.000 It's looking at the heat.
01:54:52.000 So when this was published by the New York Times, there was a very interesting memo with a little touch of humor from Raytheon to the Navy saying, you know those things you've published?
01:55:10.000 It was taken with one of the devices which we sold you to put under the wing of your aircraft.
01:55:18.000 It's not...
01:55:19.000 A camera, it's not a photographic camera.
01:55:22.000 You gave us specifications for what you wanted us to build, and that's what we gave you.
01:55:29.000 You wanted something that could measure the temperature of the exhaust of an enemy aircraft that you're going to shoot down.
01:55:39.000 You know, the F-18 goes behind that Russian thing or MiG or whatever.
01:55:44.000 And the camera is painting the exhaust from the Russian guy so that you can distinguish between, you know, American Airlines 723 and a MiG.
01:56:00.000 That's going to help you discriminate what kind of enemy you've got.
01:56:05.000 You know, is it friend or foe first?
01:56:07.000 If it's friend, you peel off and that's fine.
01:56:12.000 If it's an enemy, you're going to engage the guy.
01:56:16.000 That's what we gave you.
01:56:18.000 You didn't tell us you wanted a device to track flying saucers because we don't know what flying saucers are.
01:56:26.000 If you do, you know, we'll build one.
01:56:30.000 And that memo is just so funny.
01:56:34.000 You know, it's an official, you know, I make it a little bit funnier than it was, but it's an official memo and it's very straightforward.
01:56:45.000 Jamie, see if you could find a good photograph, excuse me, an image of the infrared image that was taken by those F-18s.
01:56:55.000 You have an image of a heat source.
01:56:57.000 Yes.
01:56:58.000 Of that Tic Tac.
01:57:00.000 And then they also got the video representation, the video of the thing taking off at some extreme rate of speed.
01:57:09.000 That's it right there.
01:57:11.000 So that's the image, right?
01:57:14.000 Yeah.
01:57:15.000 Well, the radar said that it took off and popped up somewhere else.
01:57:27.000 We accept that at face value because it's in the New York Times, and that may be true.
01:57:38.000 In my work in venture capital, I've looked at all kinds of technology.
01:57:45.000 That's around.
01:57:47.000 So I go to technology meetings.
01:57:50.000 Those are open.
01:57:51.000 They are not secret or anything.
01:57:53.000 And people talk about their gadget or their device.
01:57:56.000 They are looking for money, you know, to make in larger quantity.
01:58:03.000 So I found myself in a conversation with a guy from one of the aircraft companies in Southern California.
01:58:15.000 And I asked him, you know, there is a device that has a funny name, like DISPRO or something like that.
01:58:30.000 And it measures, it acquires radar signals.
01:58:44.000 I think it's a DSPR, you know, for radar.
01:58:52.000 And that gadget, I never heard of it, and it's actually not classified.
01:58:59.000 Now, it was developed initially so that you could...
01:59:06.000 Analyze radar data that was coming to you.
01:59:11.000 If somebody was painting your aircraft on the radar, you could detect the characteristics of the radar pulse.
01:59:19.000 Why would you want to do that?
01:59:21.000 Well, you want to do that because...
01:59:26.000 I said, well, what does it look like?
01:59:29.000 Is it classified?
01:59:30.000 He said, no, it's not classified.
01:59:32.000 Many airplanes...
01:59:35.000 Civilian airplanes can carry it.
01:59:37.000 You put it in the nose of your Piper Cub or whatever, and you fly around Los Angeles, and it will acquire the characteristics of all the radars in the Los Angeles area digitally.
01:59:52.000 It's a digital thing.
01:59:53.000 It's a computer, essentially, that requires radar data.
01:59:57.000 And then it feeds back radar characteristics.
02:00:02.000 Of any aircraft you want somewhere else.
02:00:08.000 So if you want your paper cap to look like a B-52 20 miles away, you turn on, you know, I'm making it simple, but you program the thing and you can redirect the defense, the air defense, for example, to another place.
02:00:30.000 So you can send a signal to another place that makes it look like there's a B-52 there?
02:00:35.000 Yes.
02:00:36.000 Or make it look like you've disappeared in mid-air and reappeared somewhere else.
02:00:42.000 Oh.
02:00:44.000 Digitally.
02:00:44.000 It's a digital radar feedback device that once you know the characteristics of the radars that are painting you, you can, I mean, obviously...
02:00:56.000 Suppose you want to travel to Moscow over the Iron Curtain without being shut down by the Soviet Air Force.
02:01:09.000 You'd want to redirect all the radars.
02:01:13.000 I mean, you're on 20 radars.
02:01:15.000 Right.
02:01:16.000 One of the things that they said about the Tic Tac was that when they encountered it, it was somehow or another blocking their detection signals.
02:01:27.000 Well, you know, I don't know.
02:01:34.000 I don't know how far it's gotten in the last 30 years.
02:01:38.000 The guy I was talking to was telling me about technology of 30 years ago.
02:01:43.000 Wow.
02:01:43.000 It blew my mind.
02:01:44.000 I didn't know you could do that.
02:01:46.000 Right.
02:01:47.000 I didn't know until just now.
02:01:48.000 You could just paint.
02:01:53.000 I'm not sure where the technology is and who is cleared for that.
02:01:59.000 You know, pilots are cleared for certain things, obviously for all their equipment on board.
02:02:05.000 They are not necessarily cleared for...
02:02:08.000 So you have to ask, in the case of the Nimitz, what clearances did these pilots we see on TV, what clearances did they have?
02:02:20.000 No, they have the electronic countermeasure clearance.
02:02:24.000 They don't necessarily have it.
02:02:26.000 I mean, some of them didn't have the camera.
02:02:29.000 Some of those who are on TV today talking about these images, the image didn't come from them.
02:02:37.000 It came from one of their buddies who came afterwards.
02:02:41.000 There's also the question of where they take place.
02:02:43.000 So half of the data is missing.
02:02:45.000 I've always questioned where they take place because they take place in the same areas where the United States always runs military training exercises.
02:02:53.000 They take place off of San Diego, off of the East Coast, all these areas where we know that they run exercises all the time, restricted airspace.
02:03:03.000 If you were going to test equipment...
02:03:06.000 I think this was in international waters.
02:03:09.000 Yes.
02:03:09.000 Yeah, it was.
02:03:11.000 But it was still off the coast of San Diego, where they do these things, which is why the fighter pilots were there in the first place.
02:03:16.000 But it's not restricted.
02:03:16.000 I mean, the Russians could fly there.
02:03:18.000 Right, not that area, but isn't the area off the East Coast where some of those things are restricted?
02:03:23.000 I don't know.
02:03:24.000 Okay.
02:03:25.000 Long Island is restricted.
02:03:29.000 It says, China's electronic war gadget turned small drones into flying stadium on radar. 0.55
02:03:34.000 So this is an article from January of this year, and then I'll show you something else I found.
02:03:39.000 Wow, so they can make it look like a flying saucer.
02:03:42.000 The size of an iPad can make it look like as big as a sports stadium.
02:03:45.000 Whoa, look at this.
02:03:46.000 The effect, similar to a giant flying saucer suddenly materializing in midair, would be reminiscent of a scene from a science fiction film, but is achievable according to a peer-reviewed paper published on January 8th.
02:03:56.000 Whoa.
02:03:57.000 Also, so then the month before that, here's their new stealth fighter that's painted with the stuff you just said that scatters the frequencies or something.
02:04:05.000 You know, this isn't my field.
02:04:09.000 This is just something I stumbled across, typing in the words he was saying.
02:04:12.000 Yeah, just pretty cool.
02:04:14.000 So they're testing this too.
02:04:16.000 What I was getting at was, if you're the United States government, if you're the military, and you have this kind of equipment and you want to test it, what better way than to test it on people that don't know you're testing it on them?
02:04:31.000 Send your fighter jets out there, have them encounter these things.
02:04:35.000 Run your whatever experiment you're doing with making something appear and reappear and take off and give them these signals.
02:04:44.000 Give them these disruptive, deceptive signals and see whether or not they...
02:04:50.000 The problem is they had visual confirmation of these things.
02:04:53.000 That's the real problem.
02:04:54.000 The problem is they actually saw these things.
02:04:56.000 Like the Tic Tac was they visually saw it for people, right?
02:05:01.000 I have a colleague in Silicon Valley who's been a distinguished army career, and he told me that there were, in fact, tests of especially nuclear facilities, not necessarily the military, but mostly the military facilities.
02:05:27.000 To test the ability to penetrate the perimeter.
02:05:31.000 So those flights are not cleared with the people who manage the plant.
02:05:40.000 So it's either a nuclear plant that makes...
02:05:45.000 You know, fuel for bombs, or it's a base where nuclear weapons are stored, and there are guys around the perimeter with machine guns, and they are going to sound an alert if they see something coming over the fence.
02:06:04.000 Well, suppose you come over the fence looking like a flying saucer.
02:06:09.000 Are they going to start shooting or not?
02:06:14.000 You know, he told me that he had actually flown some of those missions.
02:06:19.000 And I know another member of the BAS team who confirmed that told me he had been on some of those missions.
02:06:29.000 They make their plane look like, you know, they put lights around it so it can look like a flying saucer, essentially, or look like...
02:06:42.000 What a UFO, what would be a UFO to the guard?
02:06:45.000 Right.
02:06:46.000 So that the guard is, they want to see if they can penetrate, if you can disguise yourself to the extent that psychologically you can inhibit the reaction of the guards and you can fly over the fence.
02:07:01.000 Wow.
02:07:01.000 Because if you can fly over the fence, you're in.
02:07:04.000 Right.
02:07:04.000 You know, you can do a lot of damage.
02:07:06.000 Wow.
02:07:07.000 So pretend you're a UFO. So those, those are, but I don't think they do, they do hundreds of those.
02:07:16.000 I think they probably do it, you know, very carefully at a couple of places.
02:07:22.000 But it's interesting that they have that ability.
02:07:25.000 That's, that, that's fascinating.
02:07:27.000 That throws a lot of this stuff into question, like what are we actually seeing?
02:07:31.000 Yes.
02:07:31.000 But it doesn't explain all these things.
02:07:34.000 And that's the, the problem that I always have is that they just, Abundance of encounters and how similar a lot of them are and then what it must feel like I've never had an experience But what it must feel like to have that experience What that you probably would be very I wouldn't be reluctant because I'm a known Person to talk about silly things,
02:07:58.000 but if you're not if you're like a serious person you have some sort of an encounter I would imagine there's a lot of pressure on you to not tell people If you're a lawyer or a doctor or you're any sort of, like, respectable person that's a serious individual in whatever you're doing for a career, you don't want people to associate you with nonsense or think that, oh, maybe Mike is losing his mind.
02:08:24.000 Yeah, you can, because you have people relying on your ability to...
02:08:27.000 So maybe you tell your friends, maybe you tell your mother, maybe you tell your wife, but you probably don't tell the press.
02:08:35.000 If you're a scientist, I would imagine you would have to have, like, significant evidence for you to stick your neck out.
02:08:42.000 Or you're a person like yourself that's been very brave for all these years.
02:08:45.000 Because you were talking about this stuff in the 1960s, which is pretty crazy.
02:08:50.000 Well, you know, I had seen, essentially, a flying saucer when I was 15. Can you describe it?
02:09:00.000 I grew up in a town that's about 45 minutes out of Paris on the road to Normandy.
02:09:11.000 And my father was a judge in that town for a while.
02:09:16.000 And a beautiful afternoon in the summer.
02:09:22.000 I don't know the exact date.
02:09:24.000 It would have been late June or July.
02:09:28.000 In 1955. So I was about 15, 16. I was still in school, and then the following year I was going to go to the university.
02:09:41.000 And my mother called me.
02:09:45.000 I was working with my father, who was relaxing, doing some furniture, and I was helping him.
02:09:54.000 And I heard my mother call from the yard and went down and saw an object that was absolutely a saucer.
02:10:05.000 It looked like it was over the steeple of the cathedral there.
02:10:14.000 And we were about half a kilometer away from it.
02:10:19.000 And it was just suspended.
02:10:21.000 It was silver.
02:10:22.000 And there was a clear dome on top of it.
02:10:26.000 And we both saw that.
02:10:30.000 It was very clear.
02:10:34.000 And then the next day, I asked a friend of mine from school who was, you know, we were the two good students in physics and so on.
02:10:46.000 And I told him I had seen that, and he said he had looked at it with binoculars.
02:10:51.000 He had seen it too, and he had looked at it with binoculars, and I got him to draw it, and he drew exactly what I had seen, essentially a lens-shaped thing with a clear dome on top.
02:11:04.000 How long did you see it for?
02:11:07.000 I saw it for less than a minute.
02:11:11.000 I think I went inside.
02:11:13.000 I don't remember what I did.
02:11:19.000 Logically, I probably went inside to get my father so that he could see it.
02:11:24.000 And then when he came out, it was gone?
02:11:27.000 Well, he didn't even come out.
02:11:30.000 He said it was probably one of the new planes that were flying around.
02:11:36.000 Because this was a time when the meteors and the early jets were being...
02:11:44.000 I tried, and they were training pilots with them and so on, both for civil aviation and for the Air Force in France.
02:11:52.000 So he said, well, let's wait.
02:11:56.000 Maybe this will be disclosed at some point.
02:11:58.000 So I didn't say anything about it.
02:12:01.000 Also, you know, the son of a judge, the family of a judge isn't supposed to see strange things.
02:12:09.000 In the air, over the town.
02:12:11.000 Right.
02:12:12.000 So it was sensitive.
02:12:15.000 What year was this?
02:12:16.000 When you were 15?
02:12:17.000 How old do you know?
02:12:19.000 It was 1955. 1955. So back then...
02:12:23.000 I was 15, 16. Okay.
02:12:26.000 So we could also apply that, like, if it was a jet, it would probably be very loud.
02:12:31.000 Well, and also it wouldn't just stand there.
02:12:34.000 Right.
02:12:34.000 It wouldn't be able to just sit there.
02:12:35.000 Was this thing quiet?
02:12:37.000 After that...
02:12:38.000 You know, I understood that it was...
02:12:42.000 After that, I worked at Paris Observatory after I had my degree in astronomy, tracking satellites.
02:12:49.000 We tracked the very early satellites.
02:12:52.000 And we were a government office, so people were writing to us with what they had seen.
02:13:01.000 And most of it we could explain.
02:13:04.000 For one thing, they were seeing echo, and they were seeing some of the Russian rockets, you know.
02:13:10.000 And so we would write back.
02:13:14.000 I mean, we had to write back, you know, to a French citizen.
02:13:18.000 I had a card with a French flag on it, and, you know, we were serving the...
02:13:26.000 The population.
02:13:28.000 So we would explain those things pretty much the way they do now.
02:13:32.000 You've seen the moon rising through the fog or you've seen satellite, you know, so much Alpha 23. But then there were cases where just like that, where they saw something we could not explain.
02:13:48.000 But then we would tell them, but we wouldn't publish it.
02:13:52.000 We wouldn't send it anywhere.
02:13:55.000 For one thing, it wasn't our job.
02:13:57.000 Our job was tracking satellites.
02:14:01.000 Right, but that one experience that you had when you were 15 is what ignited your interest in this for so many years.
02:14:07.000 Yeah.
02:14:09.000 Well, if you hadn't been doing it, I mean, the thing that's very important about people like yourself is that you're so careful in how you document these things and the conclusions that you draw.
02:14:20.000 Because I think this field of UFO study is filled with so many people that claim to have answers, claim to know things, and this is going to happen, and this is coming, and this isā€”disclosure's imminent, and thisā€”and that's notā€”it never comes true.
02:14:36.000 It's alwaysā€”you're just left waiting for some new evidence that supposedly they have.
02:14:43.000 And this is the more frustratingā€” Aspects of it, like when talking to Christopher Mellon, he's telling me there's high-resolution photographs and video.
02:14:51.000 How about showing me?
02:14:53.000 Show me some stuff.
02:14:55.000 Show me something.
02:14:56.000 Because as a person, when I was 15, I didn't see anything.
02:15:00.000 So I don't have that experience that you have.
02:15:02.000 I just have this fascination with it, but also tempered by a little bit of cynicism.
02:15:08.000 Because there's so much malarkey that's attached to this subject.
02:15:15.000 And some of it is, you know, some of it is legitimate.
02:15:22.000 And I think ufologists in general, you know, they want disclosure, disclosure, disclosure, but we don't know.
02:15:31.000 You know, I'm very respectful of, you know, when I had the clearances, I was just very respectful of those clearances because there are people who know.
02:15:45.000 What's on the other side of that?
02:15:48.000 There was one case in the Air Force files that was classified.
02:15:54.000 It was marked in the index with a star, and I'm punching the card, and I put an asterisk there, and I had to ask Dr. Hynek, you know, what happened?
02:16:06.000 Can you tell me what happened there?
02:16:08.000 And he said, yeah, I can.
02:16:11.000 There was enough time.
02:16:13.000 That I can tell you, this came from a woman in Alaska called the Air Force because she saw what she thought was a flying saucer, certainly something that should not have been there.
02:16:29.000 It was dark on the ground, but the sky was still light, and there was definitely, I don't know, a light.
02:16:39.000 That looked like it was under power, that was flying west.
02:16:48.000 Now, west of Alaska, you know, there's a Kaurai Peninsula and there's a Soviet Union.
02:16:57.000 So she thought it was a UFO. So it was reported as a UFO, but it was...
02:17:07.000 It was classified and it was called unidentified.
02:17:12.000 Well, you know, that was an inside joke.
02:17:16.000 It was a U-2.
02:17:19.000 But this was at sunset and the U-2 was...
02:17:25.000 I mean, U2 is painted in such a way that it shouldn't be visible, but there are some conditions where you're going to see it.
02:17:36.000 And so it was classified, and if you had the clearance, you would read that it was unidentified.
02:17:48.000 It would be listed in the statistics as unidentified.
02:17:53.000 But it was actually a YouTube.
02:17:54.000 Exactly what it was from the beginning.
02:17:56.000 Interesting.
02:17:56.000 So some things are listed as unidentified because it's so classified.
02:18:01.000 Yeah, that makes sense.
02:18:02.000 I have no problem with that.
02:18:04.000 Right.
02:18:04.000 But, you know, tell me if you ask me to write a computer program about it.
02:18:10.000 Right.
02:18:11.000 Tell me if it's...
02:18:12.000 If it's worth my time or not.
02:18:14.000 What was your take on the Ryan Graves stuff?
02:18:18.000 Like Ryan Graves and the fighter pilots that started seeing these squares within a sphere?
02:18:25.000 To me, that's still a question.
02:18:27.000 And the people I talk to are still wondering, you know, what is that?
02:18:39.000 There are...
02:18:45.000 Strange physical systems that are floating around to gather faint signals, and they have very strange shapes.
02:18:57.000 So it could be, those are balloons within balloons with little things attached to them.
02:19:04.000 Going back to the days of...
02:19:07.000 No, 1947, looking for atomic explosions, Russian, you know, that's the way the Russian tests, atomic tests were detected first, was with balloons that had large antennas, you know, that were...
02:19:30.000 The thing about the Ryan Graves stuff, though, is the physical characteristics and the way it moves.
02:19:36.000 These things are able to stay stationary and 100 plus knot winds.
02:19:40.000 I don't know.
02:19:43.000 You don't know.
02:19:44.000 I have not researched it and I wouldn't be the guy to research it.
02:19:48.000 If we are being visited, how many different civilizations do you think are visiting us?
02:19:58.000 Because if there's all these different characteristics that these beings have, if some of them look like tall, albino, almost like human beings with large eyes, some of them look like the greys, some of them look like dwarfs.
02:20:14.000 Yes, and that's an embarrassment of riches in a way.
02:20:18.000 Right.
02:20:24.000 Of course, that opens a question.
02:20:26.000 You know, is it a simulation?
02:20:29.000 And Reswin Work has published a couple of books about that.
02:20:34.000 He's a friend of ours and Dr. Nolan, and we've had many conversations about that.
02:20:42.000 You know, we could be living in a simulation of sorts where the people running the simulation might send whatever they want.
02:20:51.000 I mean, it would be like a video game.
02:20:53.000 So all of a sudden, you've got a new...
02:20:56.000 But that's not completely...
02:21:00.000 You can only go so far.
02:21:02.000 In fact, the first reaction is, well, you know, but look at the detail.
02:21:08.000 We can't reproduce a detail on that scale.
02:21:12.000 That's true, but, you know, wait 10 years and we'll be able to do it.
02:21:17.000 I mean, with quantum computing and all that.
02:21:22.000 That's not a good argument.
02:21:24.000 It's an okay argument now, but it doesn't stand the test.
02:21:31.000 The other argument is, you know, who would be doing it and why?
02:21:36.000 I mean, that's true that there are some strange things.
02:21:38.000 I mean, the fact that the moon is exactly the size to hide the sun, it's exactly, you know, 30 minutes of arc, like the sun.
02:21:50.000 So it gives us total eclipses and it gives us a measuring tool.
02:21:57.000 The Greeks knew roughly how far the sun was with respect to the moon.
02:22:04.000 They knew the ratio of the distances.
02:22:06.000 They didn't get the exact distance.
02:22:09.000 But they already knew that because they had done the math, you know, the geometry.
02:22:15.000 So that's...
02:22:17.000 Pretty strange, you know.
02:22:19.000 And it also protects our environment by keeping us stable.
02:22:21.000 And there are lots of things on Earth that, you know, seem to be accidental that are just right for us to exist.
02:22:29.000 Yeah.
02:22:33.000 But I'm not completely happy with that explanation.
02:22:40.000 Nor am I. I'm not happy with it, but it's very compelling.
02:22:43.000 What's fascinating to me is that it is inevitable that if technology advances the way it is currently within maybe even our lifetime or within another lifetime, another hundred years, we will most certainly have an artificial reality that you cannot discern, indiscernible between that and the reality we currently experience.
02:23:07.000 So if that's inevitable, you would kind of assume that perhaps it's already taking place.
02:23:13.000 And if it had already taken place, it would probably be very similar to what we're experiencing.
02:23:18.000 Whereas enough of it seems fake and enough of it seems scripted, enough of it seems very coincidental how things line up that it almost does seem like a simulation sometimes.
02:23:35.000 But there are also things that are strange but that we could research that we are doing a very bad job of researching.
02:23:45.000 I got a phone call a couple of years ago from a woman who had been a student at a school, a high-level school.
02:23:58.000 Preparatory, you know, school on the East Coast.
02:24:02.000 And I had published a book in the 80s, early 80s, about UFOs.
02:24:08.000 And she was head of a lecture bureau for the kids. 0.82
02:24:12.000 And she thought it would be fun to bring me there to talk about flying saucers.
02:24:18.000 Because it would excite the students.
02:24:20.000 So I went there and I gave...
02:24:25.000 You know, a lecture at the level of, you know.
02:24:29.000 But those were very bright students, you know.
02:24:33.000 It was sort of an elite girl school.
02:24:35.000 And then, you know, she drove me back to the airport and I went home.
02:24:41.000 Never heard from her again.
02:24:45.000 I don't know, what, 35 years pass and she calls me.
02:24:51.000 And she says, you may not remember me, but, you know, I was the one who brought you to give the lecture at the school.
02:25:02.000 Do you ever come to Washington?
02:25:05.000 And I said, I do remember you.
02:25:08.000 And I go to Washington a couple of times a year.
02:25:12.000 And she says, well, I'd like to tell you about an experience I had.
02:25:19.000 And next time you come to Washington, ring me up.
02:25:22.000 And when you're done with your meetings, you know, I'll pick you up and I'll drive you to Dallas Airport.
02:25:29.000 And so I do that.
02:25:32.000 I call her.
02:25:33.000 She picks me up in a very nice Mercedes.
02:25:38.000 And she says, I've never forgotten your lecture.
02:25:45.000 I saw something.
02:25:48.000 Here, on the way to the airport, where we're passing now, that I'd like to describe to you, because it reminded me of your lecture and I had never heard that anywhere else.
02:26:02.000 You know, there are trees along the freeway on both sides, beautiful.
02:26:06.000 The freeway was dark and the sky was still blue.
02:26:11.000 She said, I saw an elongated object, which was like, to me, twice 747. With what people would probably think of as portholes or windows.
02:26:27.000 There were just lights along the thing.
02:26:32.000 The thing was elongated.
02:26:33.000 And it was moving slowly.
02:26:36.000 Minding its own business.
02:26:38.000 You know, it must be on 10 radars, including the airport.
02:26:42.000 And it was moving over, and then the sky was perfectly clear, no clouds, no fog.
02:26:51.000 It blended with the sky.
02:26:55.000 I could just see the outline still.
02:26:59.000 It didn't speed up.
02:27:01.000 I could see the lights, and I could see the lights fading, and then there was nothing there.
02:27:08.000 And I remember in your lecture in the 80s, you talked about things that could be going into another dimension, okay?
02:27:18.000 But I thought that was interesting, and the kids thought it was an interesting idea.
02:27:28.000 And yeah, in science, you know, people, you talk about different dimensions in physics and so on, but I had never seen it mentioned anywhere else, and there it was.
02:27:40.000 You know, this thing faded from our universe, and I have no idea where it went.
02:27:47.000 But it didn't speed up.
02:27:51.000 I said, thank you very much.
02:27:53.000 Can I publish that?
02:27:55.000 I said, no way.
02:27:56.000 I'm the CEO of an international commercial company.
02:28:01.000 We work in several countries and I can't have my name associated with it.
02:28:06.000 Now, I've had probably a dozen cases like that with people from Silicon Valley, people, you know, they...
02:28:15.000 They report on Wall Street about how their company is doing.
02:28:20.000 They don't want a reporter saying, are you the same guy who sees flying saucers?
02:28:25.000 You're the CEO of this such-and-such microchip company in San Jose.
02:28:32.000 So they don't report it.
02:28:37.000 They want me or some of my colleagues to know about it because they know it could contribute to the research we're doing.
02:28:45.000 And Dr. Nolan has had that experience as well, as you know.
02:28:50.000 But it's not going to the Air Force.
02:28:53.000 It's not going to the newspapers.
02:28:56.000 It's not going to the New York Times.
02:28:59.000 Now, if those things can just jump out of our universe and go somewhere else, That rewrites the whole thing.
02:29:11.000 You know, we're not talking about propulsion the way we think about propulsion.
02:29:17.000 We're not talking about, you know, environmental environment.
02:29:22.000 We're not talking the passage of time, you know, in the same way that, you know, I would experience with my watch and so on.
02:29:31.000 We're talking about something that has the rules are different.
02:29:35.000 And we need to go up and start thinking along those rules, or at least the possibility of those rules.
02:29:43.000 It doesn't prove that there is another universe five minutes ahead of us, but there could be.
02:29:53.000 Papers that they publish saying there couldn't be flying saucers because there isn't life, you know, closer than, you know, 2,000 light years from us.
02:30:03.000 And they would take, at the speed of light, it would take 2,000 years to come here.
02:30:08.000 Well, there could be another universe five minutes ahead of us.
02:30:12.000 It would take them five minutes to get here, okay?
02:30:15.000 So that would explain why we have visitations throughout history.
02:30:22.000 And they look the same throughout history because, you know, our technology, I mean, this technology or this microphone didn't exist 20 years ago.
02:30:32.000 You know, it's a new microphone.
02:30:34.000 And there were no microphones, you know, 200 years ago.
02:30:39.000 There were no microphones at all.
02:30:41.000 So how come those things look the same?
02:30:46.000 How can we compare them to something somebody saw in the 18th century?
02:30:51.000 Right, right.
02:30:51.000 That shouldn't happen unless your technology is stuck.
02:30:57.000 Right, right, right.
02:30:58.000 Yeah, that is a fascinating aspect of it.
02:31:01.000 You would expect that if you thought about how fast our technology evolves, technology from 1947 from some other planet would be exponentially more advanced than what we experienced in 1947. Just based on how our technology evolves.
02:31:19.000 And you'll have to think, I mean, we think about an aircraft in ways completely different.
02:31:24.000 I mean, there are things that, yes, it came from the Wright brothers and so on.
02:31:30.000 And there were speculation before on how you could fly.
02:31:34.000 But what an aircraft does today is radically different.
02:31:39.000 The whole physics is different.
02:31:41.000 And we're only talking about a hundred and some years ago.
02:31:45.000 Which is pretty crazy.
02:31:47.000 You go from this thing that Wilbur and Orwell Wright, you know, kind of like get it to take some air for a little bit to the Chinese jet, which is disguising itself from radar and travels at insane speeds.
02:32:01.000 And then the possibility of other propulsion systems that have been kept under wraps.
02:32:05.000 Oh, to the harrier that stays.
02:32:08.000 Yes.
02:32:08.000 And then lands like that.
02:32:10.000 Yeah.
02:32:11.000 No, just the technology that we know that we're aware of.
02:32:14.000 Over the last 200 years, it's pretty extraordinary.
02:32:17.000 And if you imagine something from somewhere that's had thousands of years to evolve past us.
02:32:25.000 There are a couple of things I wanted to bring up that are in the book.
02:32:32.000 Well, one is in the book.
02:32:33.000 The other one isn't.
02:32:36.000 What's in the book is I've tried to continue the parapsychology experiments.
02:32:42.000 We're done at SRI and now at lots of other places.
02:32:47.000 And I got advice from people who said if you put yourself in some types of conditions, you could try to manifest another form of intelligence or another form of essentially an apparition.
02:33:09.000 It's not necessarily related to UFOs, but if you can do that, that would teach you what you could do also with some of the encounters that people describe, that the witnesses tell me.
02:33:23.000 So if I'm a good scientist, I should put myself in their place first and experience it myself.
02:33:30.000 So I did a couple of sort of mental experiments like that in my home.
02:33:37.000 I was alone at the time in my home, and nothing happened.
02:33:43.000 And then nothing like what I expected happened.
02:33:49.000 And then I was asleep one night, and all of a sudden I'm propelled outside of my body into another room, and there is an entity there, a massive sort of rectangular Mass, you know, entity.
02:34:11.000 Clearly, you know, something that knows where it is and is thinking.
02:34:20.000 I'm terrified, not terrified so much of the entity.
02:34:26.000 It's like a sort of black rectangle.
02:34:32.000 But I'm terrified of being outside my body.
02:34:36.000 I know people do experiments with that and there are people who can do it almost as well.
02:34:43.000 I've never tried to do that, I think, because I've heard, you know, cautions that it's very dangerous because what if you don't find your way back?
02:34:53.000 So I'm terrified.
02:34:57.000 I find myself back in my body.
02:35:01.000 You know, I sit up, completely terrified, crying, screaming, which is not usual.
02:35:12.000 Because it was just, you know, it really was horrible.
02:35:18.000 Then I rationalized it, you know.
02:35:21.000 The experience wasn't supposed to happen outside of my body.
02:35:26.000 When people describe entities...
02:35:30.000 Like Whitley Strieber describes it and so on.
02:35:33.000 There is a very strong psychic impact.
02:35:37.000 But to me that was very shocking.
02:35:43.000 It hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since.
02:35:49.000 I'm not trying to make it happen, but I wanted to flag it.
02:35:55.000 To get advice mostly from other people.
02:35:59.000 Did you feel compelled to try it again?
02:36:02.000 I would try it again.
02:36:05.000 But you have not yet?
02:36:06.000 No.
02:36:07.000 No.
02:36:07.000 I can understand.
02:36:08.000 It was that terrifying if you woke up screaming.
02:36:10.000 I want to get counsel from, you know, my peers.
02:36:14.000 That's like similar to the monolith in 2001, right?
02:36:20.000 Yeah.
02:36:23.000 You know, there is a scientist I know well in Silicon Valley who also started a number of companies that are publicly traded now who invented the integrated circuit.
02:36:39.000 His name is Federico Fagin.
02:36:42.000 He is a physicist from Italy with a PhD from Italy.
02:36:49.000 To Silicon Valley in the very early days of the transistor.
02:36:53.000 Worked with the initial teams in those places.
02:36:58.000 And then, you know, there was a problem of how can you pack those things together in smaller and smaller places.
02:37:08.000 And he's, you know, recognized as the father or one of the...
02:37:16.000 Two or three people who invented the integrated circuit.
02:37:20.000 So, for a long time he was celebrated in that capacity.
02:37:27.000 What he didn't say is that he had seen the design outside of his body one night and that he had had multiple experiences outside of his body.
02:37:41.000 Now, this is...
02:37:43.000 Someone, you know, one of the fathers of Silicon Valley.
02:37:46.000 I mean, I recognize him as one of my mentors, you know, in venture capital, in high technology investment.
02:37:56.000 But now he started to, I mean, he's made enough money that he doesn't care anymore and he's sort of semi-retiring.
02:38:05.000 He doesn't like what's going on, you know, right now.
02:38:10.000 Probably going to go back to Europe.
02:38:12.000 But there are a number of people like that whose names are in the Wall Street Journal or in the New York Times who've achieved something, but you find out that they also had, and they experimented with it.
02:38:35.000 In his case, he experimented systematically with...
02:38:39.000 You know, the ability to go out of his body and...
02:38:43.000 And acquire this information from some other source.
02:38:48.000 Well...
02:38:48.000 Or a vision.
02:38:50.000 There isn't much...
02:38:51.000 There are a couple of books that mention, you know, steps you can take, but it seems to be pretty much up to the individual.
02:39:02.000 In my case, I certainly wasn't trying to do that.
02:39:05.000 You know, it just...
02:39:06.000 I was precipitated.
02:39:08.000 Instantly to the place where this being was.
02:39:16.000 There were also a couple of things that I never wrote about, not that I wanted to hide them or was afraid of them, but I wanted to understand the context of it before I did.
02:39:34.000 And I talk about it in this book.
02:39:41.000 In the late 70s, my wife, my first wife, Janine, was a psychologist.
02:39:49.000 We bought a place in the country, in Northern California, a place in the redwood forest, because I wanted to re-experience the pleasure of...
02:40:03.000 Doing astronomy as an amateur, you know, a small telescope.
02:40:07.000 But I don't care.
02:40:09.000 I want to look at the moon.
02:40:10.000 I want to look at planets.
02:40:11.000 I want to look at Magellanic, you know, clouds, you know, whatever.
02:40:18.000 And the...
02:40:20.000 So we built this...
02:40:25.000 We had...
02:40:26.000 There was a house there, but I built an observatory in the middle of the forest.
02:40:34.000 This was a redwood forest, you know, uncluttered and, you know, unspoiled.
02:40:42.000 Pretty much inaccessible.
02:40:44.000 You know, if you didn't own the land, you know, you couldn't go cut the trees.
02:40:50.000 So those were...
02:40:51.000 There were some old redwoods there, and the closest neighbor was about three-quarter of a mile away.
02:41:01.000 And I thought, this is going to be like a discontinuity in the forest, and maybe it will attract whatever is out there.
02:41:10.000 And maybe we'll see UFOs.
02:41:13.000 We never did.
02:41:14.000 We owned the place for 18 years.
02:41:16.000 We'd go there with our kids, and it was wonderful.
02:41:23.000 But we went there not every weekend, but pretty much as much as we could.
02:41:28.000 And then our kids grew up and moved away.
02:41:32.000 We moved back to the city.
02:41:34.000 We sold the place.
02:41:36.000 The last night, of course, we had cleaned the place.
02:41:41.000 We were selling it to friends of ours who were our neighbors at a winery.
02:41:46.000 They wanted to expand the land.
02:41:49.000 We had some flat land they wanted to use for the wine, and they wanted the house.
02:41:56.000 And so, the last night, everything has been moved out.
02:42:01.000 My wife is still there because we had a car that was going to be taken back to the city, and she had her car, and she was ready to go.
02:42:14.000 Middle of the night, there's a light.
02:42:18.000 Filling the house.
02:42:20.000 No, by then there are no curtains, nothing.
02:42:23.000 Filling the house.
02:42:24.000 Blue, sort of UV, white, blue, ultraviolet light.
02:42:32.000 She goes outside and the light is making everything clear, the forest, everything else.
02:42:41.000 And it's moving.
02:42:44.000 It doesn't have a specific shape.
02:42:48.000 You know, it's like a mass of light with light all around it.
02:42:53.000 It's going down the driveway, which is a dirt road, to the main road, to the small road.
02:43:02.000 And it's just moving along, politely, in front of the ranch and down to the street.
02:43:12.000 It has no business being there.
02:43:15.000 No sound.
02:43:16.000 It's not a car.
02:43:17.000 It's not a car on fire.
02:43:20.000 The light, again, everything, all the details are there.
02:43:26.000 You can see the grass.
02:43:28.000 You can see the leaves on the trees.
02:43:31.000 And why that?
02:43:33.000 Maybe you called for it and it took a long time to get there.
02:43:37.000 Well, yeah.
02:43:39.000 Or they just wanted to say goodbye.
02:43:42.000 Yeah, maybe.
02:43:42.000 Maybe they were there the whole time and they just didn't want to show themselves.
02:43:45.000 So let's put on a show for Jacques.
02:43:47.000 There was one time we used to sleep in the observatory.
02:43:51.000 There was a small bedroom there with old books that I had collected.
02:43:56.000 And she saw, she woke up and she saw a light that was like what people describe, small light.
02:44:07.000 See where it came from or where it went.
02:44:09.000 But it was moving along the walls.
02:44:13.000 There were two of them.
02:44:14.000 And then it vanished.
02:44:17.000 She woke me up, but I had not seen it.
02:44:20.000 It was gone by the time I woke up.
02:44:22.000 I talked to a man when I went to visit Skinwalker Ranch.
02:44:26.000 A few people wanted to talk to us, but then once we brought the cameras out, only one guy wanted to talk to us.
02:44:31.000 And he was a very rational, very normal guy.
02:44:35.000 Who lived in a modest home, and he told a story about this ball of light that entered through his home.
02:44:42.000 And it seemed to be somehow or another aware that he was there.
02:44:48.000 He felt like it was, if not a living thing, controlled by something that was alive.
02:44:55.000 And then it went through the walls and disappeared again.
02:44:59.000 He said it was in his home for a few minutes.
02:45:01.000 He was moving around.
02:45:04.000 Well, as you know, Mr. Bigelow has done experiments of his own with lights and with things like that, putting interesting objects in certain places that are enclosed and seeing if something is going to look around or move them and so on.
02:45:27.000 So very, very interesting.
02:45:31.000 Well, it's such a fascinating subject.
02:45:33.000 And like I said, I really appreciate all your years of research and the way you're so measured and so objective in your analysis.
02:45:42.000 It really helps people like myself get at least some sort of an understanding of what's going on.
02:45:48.000 Well, what's important is to have guidelines, you know, for research.
02:45:53.000 Yes.
02:45:54.000 I look to some of the people you have here, you know, who've done some other exploring.
02:46:01.000 I try to learn from them and sort of refine my own criteria.
02:46:07.000 Yeah.
02:46:08.000 Well, thank you very much.
02:46:09.000 And your book, again, the one that's available now, this is Forbidden Science 6. This is the sixth of these books.
02:46:20.000 Scattered Castles is a...
02:46:22.000 It's not classified.
02:46:25.000 It comes from the classified world.
02:46:28.000 It's a repository of classified projects.
02:46:31.000 So if you're cleared at a certain level and you want to know what else is there that you would have access to or where certain things are being sent to you and you're authorized to, you could look up the names.
02:46:52.000 Of those projects.
02:46:54.000 It wouldn't tell you what the project does unless you're cleared for it.
02:46:58.000 But it would tell you that there is a project.
02:47:00.000 And so those names of secret projects are picked by a computer.
02:47:06.000 They are random.
02:47:07.000 And I thought this was funny.
02:47:10.000 You know, scattered castles is sort of like, you know, all these files about strange UFOs and strange creatures.
02:47:20.000 Wow.
02:47:21.000 I can't wait to read it.
02:47:22.000 Thank you so much.
02:47:23.000 Thank you for everything.
02:47:24.000 It was great having dinner with you and Hal Putoff and everybody else last night as well.
02:47:29.000 So I really appreciate you very much.
02:47:30.000 Thank you.