The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2295 - Scott Payne

00:00:12.000 You've had a crazy fucking life, man. 1.00

00:00:14.000 Like, a really crazy life. 1.00

00:00:16.000 That's what I'm saying.

00:00:16.000 So, to get everybody up to speed right from the beginning, you spent 25 years undercover working for the FBI in the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs.

00:00:29.000 And then some, yes sir.

00:00:30.000 What a crazy, crazy life that is.

00:00:35.000 First of all, how did you first get started doing that?

00:00:40.000 Good question.

00:00:41.000 I grew up in South Carolina, played ball, all that stuff.

00:00:45.000 I was always kind of a, I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, because that's not it. 0.96

00:00:52.000 You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses. 0.90

00:00:56.000 But I was kind of a bully of bullies. 0.91

00:00:58.000 I always looked out.

00:00:59.000 I liked the underdog.

00:01:01.000 I bounced in college, so I was already learning that gift of gab and fight techniques and stuff like that.

00:01:09.000 And then I became a cop because when I was in college, I took a course.

00:01:14.000 I'm taking electives.

00:01:15.000 I went to college so I'd have four more years to figure out what I was going to do because I didn't know what I was doing.

00:01:19.000 Except partying.

00:01:21.000 I did three years.

00:01:24.000 I was good at partying.

00:01:27.000 I hit an elective that was criminal justice, and man, I really liked it.

00:01:31.000 Psychology was always a strong thing for me, but it took a back seat, and I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology.

00:01:40.000 But during those criminal justice courses, I was like, at first, for a fleeting moment, I said, I'm going to be an attorney.

00:01:47.000 Yeah, I'll be an attorney.

00:01:48.000 And then I realized I'd be a terrible attorney.

00:01:51.000 I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, they did it.

00:01:56.000 Right? That's not going to get me any clients.

00:01:58.000 And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kennison, grabbing him and going, say it!

00:02:03.000 Say it!

00:02:04.000 You did it!

00:02:05.000 So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me.

00:02:08.000 And I did a ride-along with cops at the department, and that was it.

00:02:12.000 But once I got in to law enforcement, I was uniformed patrol for three years.

00:02:18.000 I was just so fascinated with undercover.

00:02:21.000 I don't know what it was.

00:02:22.000 I can't really remember doing the book.

00:02:25.000 I've tried to dive back in.

00:02:26.000 People ask.

00:02:27.000 I don't really remember.

00:02:28.000 I just know that I loved undercover movies, period.

00:02:32.000 If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was.

00:02:34.000 I love them all.

00:02:36.000 And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, he was actually the world's strongest man in the late 80s, after Kaz Meyer.

00:02:43.000 Oh, wow.

00:02:43.000 He was a former Marine.

00:02:46.000 Big dude.

00:02:48.000 And he, as a task force, had gone undercover in some biker gangs.

00:02:54.000 I wanted to be a biker.

00:02:57.000 I grew up on motorcycles and it just started taking off from there.

00:03:00.000 You've got to think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover because it's such a theme.

00:03:07.000 You think?

00:03:09.000 It's been around forever, the stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs.

00:03:12.000 It's been around forever.

00:03:13.000 40 plus years right now.

00:03:14.000 Easy. Wow.

00:03:15.000 Yeah. And then there's books made.

00:03:17.000 There's books made.

00:03:18.000 They go to court.

00:03:20.000 They learn.

00:03:21.000 Yeah. So it was right after the Vietnam War, right?

00:03:24.000 That's when all the biker gangs really started kicking off. 0.99

00:03:25.000 I think it goes back to World War.

00:03:27.000 I mean, my history's bad, but I think it goes back to World War at least two, right?

00:03:33.000 Really? Because all those, the way it goes, everybody always asks what a one percenter is.

00:03:37.000 And it goes back, I think it's 1947, but it goes back to when your veterans are getting out.

00:03:44.000 They had no decompression back then.

00:03:48.000 They had no plans or programs for them.

00:03:50.000 And they've been out here living this raucous, rowdy life.

00:03:53.000 And now they're back in the States.

00:03:55.000 And now they're supposed to just flip and be like...

00:03:57.000 So they started creating these clubs.

00:03:59.000 And they were doing some raucous and rowdy stuff.

00:04:02.000 And then it was the president...

00:04:04.000 Of the American Motorcycle Association, they came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good, law-abiding citizens.

00:04:14.000 There's only 1% that's bad.

00:04:16.000 And they took that as a badge of honor and said, we're 1%ers.

00:04:20.000 Wow. Yeah.

00:04:21.000 Cool stuff.

00:04:22.000 Cool stuff.

00:04:23.000 So who was the first person to infiltrate them?

00:04:25.000 Do you know the history of that?

00:04:27.000 No, I don't.

00:04:27.000 So it's been going on forever.

00:04:29.000 As soon as they found out.

00:04:30.000 It's been the case with the mob.

00:04:32.000 It's been the case with everything.

00:04:33.000 Sure. Donnie Brasco.

00:04:35.000 Yep. My mentor.

00:04:36.000 One of my...

00:04:37.000 Really? Yeah.

00:04:38.000 Joe Pistone?

00:04:39.000 Absolutely. Oh, wow.

00:04:39.000 He helped certify me.

00:04:40.000 I saw him probably within the last six months or so.

00:04:45.000 Graciously, he did a blurb on the book, too.

00:04:47.000 Oh, wow.

00:04:47.000 I call him boss man, you know.

00:04:49.000 So do you remember your first undercover assignment?

00:04:52.000 Yes, yeah.

00:04:53.000 What did you have to do?

00:04:55.000 It was at the sheriff's office.

00:04:57.000 So after three years of uniform, I make it to narcotics investigator.

00:05:01.000 Well, it's a tough crowd, but we're funny.

00:05:05.000 It's just like a good military group or anything else.

00:05:08.000 There's going to be a lot of ribbon and stuff like that.

00:05:10.000 So they said, hey, you're going to go buy some dope tonight.

00:05:15.000 It's my first time.

00:05:16.000 Now, granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school, and I was around those groups, but I never bought crack cocaine.

00:05:21.000 I was already probably 6'4", and I probably was about 270 pounds.

00:05:25.000 I did not look like I smoked crack unless I just fell off the wagon.

00:05:30.000 Just real research.

00:05:31.000 Or I just started, yeah.

00:05:34.000 I'm the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef.

00:05:36.000 I just stopped.

00:05:38.000 But they told me, hey, it's real easy.

00:05:40.000 You're just going to roll down to this corner.

00:05:42.000 It's a drug trafficking area.

00:05:45.000 You're going to roll down there.

00:05:46.000 White boy, you're going to roll down the window. 1.00

00:05:48.000 They're going to come up to you and say, what do you want?

00:05:49.000 And back then it was a 20. You just get a rock.

00:05:51.000 20 bucks for a rock.

00:05:52.000 And say, all you got to do is hold that 20 and say, you just want a 20. Joe, I drove down there.

00:05:57.000 I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone.

00:06:01.000 But I was also scared to make a fool of myself in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me. 0.95

00:06:08.000 And I roll down the street and I pull up and they come running up to the window.

00:06:11.000 What you want?

00:06:12.000 What you want?

00:06:13.000 I crack the window.

00:06:15.000 I crack it about this far, and I stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a vending machine.

00:06:20.000 I'm like, I want a 20, you know?

00:06:23.000 And the dude's like, he takes the 20, but he can't hand me the crack rock back to the cracked window. 0.99

00:06:27.000 He's like, roll the damn window down. 0.98

00:06:29.000 And I'm like, my bad. 0.99

00:06:31.000 It's probably like a sliver of soap.

00:06:32.000 Who knows?

00:06:33.000 But that was my first drug buy.

00:06:35.000 First undercover.

00:06:36.000 Like, legit.

00:06:37.000 And so what was the protocol?

00:06:39.000 Like, you had to buy the drug, and then what do you do?

00:06:42.000 It depends, a case-by-case basis.

00:06:45.000 We may want to make numerous buys on that corner, try to come in with the jump-out boys, they used to call them, and shut that corner down for a while.

00:06:51.000 We may be trying to make buys on the low-level people, on the corner selling, who are probably most likely users, at least in my experience.

00:06:59.000 So maybe like every five crack rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves.

00:07:04.000 And maybe we want to get them, build a case on them, kind of try to climb it up.

00:07:10.000 And then find out who's the distributor.

00:07:12.000 Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Visible.

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00:08:10.000 See visible.com for planned features and network management details.

00:08:15.000 And that was like the state and local.

00:08:21.000 Everybody's a little different, but three buys hit them with a search warrant kind of thing, something like that.

00:08:25.000 And ultimately, so when you're doing this, You're buying.

00:08:31.000 You're trying to develop some sort of a relationship or an understanding of how this thing goes down.

00:08:36.000 How do you get to who's selling it to them?

00:08:39.000 Do you have to arrest them first?

00:08:40.000 You can.

00:08:42.000 There's all kinds of ways, but you can do like a wall-off.

00:08:45.000 In other words, not let everybody see us pick you off, you know?

00:08:48.000 So you don't get burned, bring you in, talk to you, and this is what we got on you.

00:08:52.000 We're trying to figure out who it is, and it's just traditional law enforcement.

00:08:55.000 You're trying to find more intel and work your way up.

00:08:58.000 And you offer them a community or something like that?

00:09:00.000 Depends. Some people do it out of the goodness of their heart.

00:09:03.000 Really? Yeah.

00:09:04.000 I mean, it's rare, but I mean, you can do it.

00:09:07.000 Hey, I'm patriotic.

00:09:08.000 I want to help clean this up.

00:09:10.000 These people are trying to sell me dope.

00:09:11.000 I don't like them.

00:09:11.000 I can go buy it for you.

00:09:13.000 A lot of times we're paying a source or They could be working off a charge.

00:09:19.000 It could be part of their plea agreement.

00:09:21.000 So this is your first one.

00:09:23.000 You get comfortable doing that, and then how often are you doing this?

00:09:26.000 I don't know.

00:09:27.000 I mean, we could come in.

00:09:29.000 Let's just say there's six investigators on Northern or Southern Command narcotics in Greenville County.

00:09:35.000 You might be one of my partners, and we come in, and you go, hey, I got a source.

00:09:38.000 He's going to go make a buy tonight.

00:09:39.000 You might hop in the car with him.

00:09:41.000 It just happens.

00:09:43.000 Almost a daily thing.

00:09:45.000 And so you develop your skills doing this.

00:09:47.000 You get real good at being undercover.

00:09:49.000 And then how do you move on to the big boys?

00:09:52.000 How do you move on to biker gangs, Nazis? 0.99

00:09:54.000 I got hired by the FBI.

00:09:56.000 Wow. And was it specifically because you were good at undercover shit? 1.00

00:10:01.000 No. You see a picture of me. 0.99

00:10:03.000 This is me, but for the Academy, I mean, it's a cheesy, thin...

00:10:09.000 Fuzzy mustache.

00:10:10.000 Can't go past the crease of your lip high and tight.

00:10:13.000 You're going to get your hair cut at the PX in Quantico.

00:10:16.000 It was usually foreign ladies that were cutting your hair. 1.00

00:10:19.000 No matter how I explained what I wanted, I got the same haircut every time.

00:10:23.000 You take it up a little bit here and not so much here.

00:10:25.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:10:27.000 You're like, all right.

00:10:28.000 There you go.

00:10:29.000 I guess this is what we're doing.

00:10:30.000 But one thing I noticed at the state level was we would all go back then.

00:10:35.000 The South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in Columbia, South Carolina.

00:10:39.000 So we would go there and get certified.

00:10:42.000 But in your county, I mean, how many ways can I shape?

00:10:46.000 I'm in the same county, and you're going out here making buys.

00:10:48.000 How many times can I change my car, change my outfit, change my facial hair, the hair on my head, until everybody starts knowing I'm a narc?

00:10:58.000 Because when you're in that local environment, and I mean, I'm talking Greenville, South Carolina, Miami might be a little bit different, or New York City, but...

00:11:06.000 You're going to court a lot, and people are seeing you in court.

00:11:09.000 So how do you roll out there?

00:11:11.000 So a lot of it turns into just running sources.

00:11:14.000 To me, I believe developing and running sources is hand-in-hand with Undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer, and I don't have a felon on my record, but they do, they're still the ones we're wiring up and going in to get the evidence.

00:11:32.000 So a lot of it over the last...

00:11:34.000 Many years with the defund the police and the black eye, it's hard to recruit.

00:11:41.000 It's hard enough to get people to fill the uniform slots, so you really don't have anybody doing undercover.

00:11:47.000 Most of your smaller departments that I've taught or talked to or learned from, they're just running sources.

00:11:55.000 Really? So this all stopped during defund of the police, like the George Floyd times?

00:11:59.000 Yeah, a lot of it.

00:12:00.000 Yeah, it's the pendulum swings, right?

00:12:03.000 Or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to apply and they've got felons on their record.

00:12:10.000 And we're like, bro, you can't be a cop.

00:12:13.000 You've got a felon on your record, you know?

00:12:15.000 But I remember thinking, wouldn't it be kind of cool?

00:12:19.000 If South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database where it says, hey, Scott's skill set is biker, you know, riding motorcycles can go in a biker bar, whatever, strip clubs, this, that, and the other.

00:12:32.000 Maybe Charleston County needs somebody.

00:12:34.000 Wouldn't that be cool if I could just shoot down there and make buys for Charleston County but go back?

00:12:39.000 Then that way nobody knows me in Charleston County.

00:12:41.000 Right. And when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what they do.

00:12:44.000 You get certified in the FBI and you can go around the world.

00:12:48.000 So what was your initial job in the FBI?

00:12:51.000 You are a case agent.

00:12:53.000 When you get hired, the only responsibility you have, really, is you're a case agent.

00:13:00.000 And that means you investigate, you do your own cases.

00:13:03.000 I did that the entire career.

00:13:06.000 Even when I was doing Undercover, I was still a case agent.

00:13:08.000 But I went through the academy.

00:13:11.000 I got New York City as my first office, and New York is the largest office, so they put you kind of like on a rotation.

00:13:17.000 You don't just go straight to A squad.

00:13:19.000 You're going to be like, they want you to learn the city.

00:13:21.000 They want you to learn the ins and outs of having a placard and the bus lane and all that stuff.

00:13:26.000 Or just how to figure out how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel when six lanes go like that, you know? 0.69

00:13:33.000 But eventually, I went through the rotation, and I got placed on the Columbian Drug Squad. 0.94

00:13:37.000 So there...

00:13:39.000 Then people start learning you were certified undercover at a state level and this, that, and the other.

00:13:43.000 So then there might be something like, say, L.A. takes off a 3,000, and we're talking like 2001-ish, 2,000, somewhere in there.

00:13:51.000 So they take off, say, 3,000 pounds of weed in L.A., and it was supposed to come to New York.

00:13:57.000 Well, we go with them and say, man, can you send us all the stuff?

00:14:01.000 They're cutting leads to us saying, hey, it was supposed to go to this address.

00:14:05.000 We've got to build the exact replica box.

00:14:08.000 And it depends on the U.S. attorney working the case.

00:14:10.000 They may want an assistant United States attorney.

00:14:12.000 They may want to just deliver it, and that's good enough.

00:14:15.000 Some may want us to deliver it.

00:14:17.000 Pull away, and then they've got a hidden switch or something that notifies us when they open it, just to make that case tighter.

00:14:23.000 So I started doing cameos on stuff like that, and then I landed in Undercover, which I don't really talk about in the book because it's classified, and we are coming up on 25 years, which is usually when they declassify them.

00:14:37.000 It's kind of been outed, but I just don't talk about it because I don't want to end up in the box, the lie detector, and have somebody beating me down.

00:14:45.000 But I landed that Undercover, And after about 30 days in San Antonio, they gave me another 60-day extension and I became the primary.

00:14:54.000 And because I was there full-time working undercover, they transferred me to the San Antonio division.

00:14:59.000 So the first undercover gig, what was your job?

00:15:04.000 What were you pretending to do?

00:15:07.000 The classified one?

00:15:09.000 Again, it's classified.

00:15:10.000 But I will say this.

00:15:11.000 I was a security guard.

00:15:12.000 Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform?

00:15:16.000 With a real gun on your hip.

00:15:18.000 And now I'm making it to the FBI and I'm working third shift as a night at the museum, you know, with a flashlight.

00:15:24.000 Oh, wow.

00:15:25.000 But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program and sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already in or slated for an undercover.

00:15:37.000 And so you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments?

00:15:45.000 What happens, at least in my experience, what happened with me is I get certified.

00:15:51.000 Our certification school is very, very intense.

00:15:54.000 I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense.

00:15:59.000 It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation.

00:16:03.000 Not going to give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that I got certified in 2002.

00:16:12.000 In 2003, I started role-playing and assisting at the school.

00:16:16.000 I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired.

00:16:20.000 Never 100% graduation rate.

00:16:22.000 I don't know of any 100% graduation rate before I got into the program.

00:16:28.000 And it's not hazing.

00:16:30.000 You get 20 slots.

00:16:32.000 So it's four groups of five.

00:16:34.000 And generally, it goes like you get some trainings during the day.

00:16:38.000 And then we're running scenarios and we're putting you into live stuff.

00:16:41.000 But day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep, I've seen people nut out.

00:16:47.000 And mine are in psych.

00:16:49.000 I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know.

00:16:52.000 Maybe we were on the SWAT team together.

00:16:54.000 Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away.

00:16:57.000 But you go to the UC school and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in.

00:17:06.000 One of my buddies walked in. 0.89

00:17:08.000 He looked like he'd been raped by a tribe. 0.94

00:17:11.000 He walked in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail. 0.98

00:17:15.000 I'm like, are you okay?

00:17:18.000 And some people, it's just...

00:17:20.000 I would say that the reason the training is like that, it's not hazing.

00:17:27.000 It's just so we don't lose anybody.

00:17:28.000 We try to make it as real as you can.

00:17:29.000 Well, you've got to find out who's going to crack.

00:17:31.000 Yeah, and think of this.

00:17:34.000 In a real...

00:17:36.000 Not all undercovers are like this, but in the ones I would usually do, there's going to be a lot of times with no sleep.

00:17:42.000 My skill set led me not to Wall Street.

00:17:44.000 It didn't lead me to the yacht.

00:17:46.000 It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscled for the mafia guy. 0.98

00:17:52.000 It led me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. 0.90

00:17:58.000 So I get certified and then... 0.89

00:18:02.000 I go back and roleplay, and that's when people start kind of seeing, and you're trying to make a name for yourself.

00:18:09.000 I wasn't getting calls, because on paper, I'm a white guy with no foreign language.

00:18:13.000 But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, hey, you got anything?

00:18:17.000 Hey, it's big country.

00:18:18.000 You got anything?

00:18:19.000 More medium now.

00:18:22.000 I could even be little country at this point.

00:18:24.000 But I'd be like, hey, you got anything for any rednecks with no foreign language? 1.00

00:18:27.000 And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh, and then they finally asked me to come to school.

00:18:30.000 And once you do the school, now there's seasoned undercovers coming back.

00:18:35.000 And they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions.

00:18:41.000 And that's where I kind of started getting into some things.

00:18:45.000 It has to be one of the most exciting.

00:18:49.000 For me, absolutely.

00:18:51.000 It has to be so crazy.

00:18:52.000 I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies.

00:18:59.000 Yeah, and that's got to be a gigantic rush.

00:19:03.000 Yeah. They're on to us.

00:19:07.000 I've talked to a few guys that have done that kind of work, and they always speak of it with sort of fond memories.

00:19:13.000 Well, crazy it is.

00:19:14.000 It's weird.

00:19:15.000 It's like it's a very particular type of person that would want to put themselves in that highly stressful, adrenaline-charged situation where, you know, any mistake and they find out who you really are, you're dead.

00:19:25.000 Could be.

00:19:26.000 Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:28.000 Now you made me second-guess my career.

00:19:31.000 Seems like it worked out.

00:19:34.000 I'm going to call Cash now.

00:19:35.000 I'll call Cash.

00:19:36.000 Hey, you think I can come back in?

00:19:38.000 What was the first one that you got, the first assignment that you got where you're like, oh boy, this is big leagues?

00:19:43.000 That was the Outlaws case.

00:19:45.000 I'd already done some undercovers again in the FBI.

00:19:48.000 I'd done several street-level things, or numerous, whatever, at the state level.

00:19:54.000 But I was doing a couple of cases in the FBI, and they were smaller.

00:19:59.000 Maybe it was supposed to be...

00:20:01.000 Interstate transportation of stolen goods, and it turned into a public corruption case.

00:20:04.000 But when I landed the outlaws case, that was my first big and probably one of the biggest I did.

00:20:11.000 So how does that go?

00:20:12.000 How did that start?

00:20:14.000 I'm not a smart man, so that's how it started.

00:20:19.000 Why do you do this, Scott?

00:20:20.000 I go, I'm not smart. 1.00

00:20:22.000 I am stupid. 1.00

00:20:23.000 I'm a glutton for punishment. 1.00

00:20:25.000 And my last name is Payne.

00:20:27.000 In that case, they'll do canvases.

00:20:31.000 A lot of times, I was an undercover coordinator.

00:20:34.000 Every division has an undercover coordinator, so you are the front line on all things covert, and you're the liaison between headquarters and that field office.

00:20:42.000 So if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, hey, I'll just put a text out to you.

00:20:48.000 You interested?

00:20:49.000 Or we may just send out a canvas, and then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator.

00:20:55.000 And if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureau-wide canvas and see what we can get.

00:21:03.000 I can't remember exactly.

00:21:04.000 If somebody called me on that one, I'm pretty sure.

00:21:06.000 I don't remember that outlaws being a canvas, but it possibly could have been.

00:21:10.000 Well, you fit the bill.

00:21:12.000 Yeah, yeah. 0.76

00:21:13.000 You look like an outlaw by your...

00:21:14.000 It depends. 0.86

00:21:15.000 Slash Viking, whatever.

00:21:16.000 Yeah. It depends.

00:21:18.000 See, that's what a lot of people...

00:21:20.000 I'll get off on a tangent, but throughout my career, My mentors, my peers, people I've been blessed to mentor, some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents.

00:21:32.000 I mean, brainiacs, awesome.

00:21:33.000 They'll be like, man, I can never do what you do.

00:21:35.000 My beard would be down to here, whatever, tatted up.

00:21:39.000 And I'm like, well, don't do me.

00:21:42.000 What's your background?

00:21:43.000 And they're like, well, I was an accountant.

00:21:44.000 And I'm like, with who?

00:21:46.000 Before they had been, I was an accountant with Disney or whatever.

00:21:48.000 I was this.

00:21:49.000 I was a lawyer.

00:21:50.000 Will you be you?

00:21:51.000 I can...

00:21:53.000 Somebody's probably going to be pissed because they're going to say it's tradecraft.

00:21:55.000 But listen, I could bring you in and you just walk into the group.

00:22:02.000 I'm the primary.

00:22:03.000 I've already laid all this stuff out.

00:22:05.000 It's a chess game.

00:22:05.000 We're always trying to stay four or five moves ahead.

00:22:08.000 Or master of puppets.

00:22:10.000 I'm just trying to connect with people and work the scene.

00:22:13.000 But you come in and you dress as an accountant and you talk like an accountant and then you walk out.

00:22:19.000 You're you.

00:22:20.000 It's real.

00:22:21.000 So there's roles for all sorts of different types of personalities and life skills.

00:22:26.000 Yeah, and I'm like, you might see something where they say, I need a person this tall that speaks this language, that does this and knows this, but what are you trying to do?

00:22:34.000 Essentially, the FBI works everything.

00:22:38.000 And if a target, if we have predication, or predicated target, or there's information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious, if we want to do an undercover, How do I get close to you?

00:22:52.000 I mean, what do you find attractive?

00:22:54.000 Usually it's money in the criminal world.

00:22:56.000 It's green, right?

00:22:57.000 You can see the Mexican mafia working with the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. 0.80

00:23:01.000 They hate each other, but they love green.

00:23:04.000 And one needs guns and one needs dope and, you know, it all in the criminal world.

00:23:09.000 But for that case, I went up, I got interviewed.

00:23:15.000 By, of course, the FBI.

00:23:18.000 There were task forces there.

00:23:19.000 DEA was there.

00:23:20.000 ATF was there.

00:23:22.000 And they had been working this case for a while.

00:23:24.000 And generally, this is the way it would work for me on these long-term type undercovers.

00:23:29.000 The case team's been working this for a long time, a year plus.

00:23:32.000 They've been building intelligence.

00:23:34.000 Now, they've got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here.

00:23:41.000 But to get that airtight case and to find out what's really going on, Now they're at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover.

00:23:50.000 And we came up with a plan.

00:23:54.000 And I went in cold.

00:23:56.000 I tried to bump them, as we say, a cold bump.

00:24:00.000 But I went into a bar that they frequented.

00:24:03.000 I went there when they weren't there.

00:24:05.000 It was a strip club. 1.00

00:24:07.000 I used to bounce at strip clubs.

00:24:08.000 In the book, I make a joke because I call them a gentleman's club, but then I say that's an oxymoron because I'm like, everyone I've been in, there's not a lot of gentlemen in there, and that includes me back in the whatever days they were.

00:24:22.000 But I knew how they work, so I went in there and I just started hanging out.

00:24:26.000 And, of course, this accident in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm getting noticed as soon as I start talking.

00:24:32.000 Where the hell are you from?

00:24:34.000 And I kind of worked that. 0.63

00:24:36.000 And started working the bar, doing what I do.

00:24:39.000 Everybody has their own way.

00:24:41.000 And let me say this, since it's at the beginning.

00:24:43.000 Listen, for me, I want people to know it comes from a humble spot.

00:24:48.000 There are men and women out there that have done way more undercovers than me.

00:24:52.000 They have been through more harrowing things than me.

00:24:54.000 I already said, I've got mentors, I've got peers, I've got people I've been blessed to mentor.

00:24:59.000 Some of them don't want to talk.

00:25:01.000 Some of them haven't had the opportunity.

00:25:03.000 So just know it's coming from a... 0.65

00:25:05.000 A love kind of place.

00:25:06.000 Got it.

00:25:07.000 So when you say you work in the bar, what do you mean?

00:25:09.000 You just like making friends with people there?

00:25:11.000 What I did last night here in Austin.

00:25:14.000 Same thing.

00:25:15.000 Isn't it like old habits die hard?

00:25:17.000 Yeah. It's like catch and release?

00:25:21.000 You're like pretending?

00:25:22.000 Yeah, it's still working your gab.

00:25:24.000 That's interesting.

00:25:25.000 So you're always working your skill set, even though you're not on the job anymore.

00:25:28.000 Yeah, I know.

00:25:29.000 I love connecting with people. 1.00

00:25:31.000 I don't care whether you're smart, stupid, big. 1.00

00:25:34.000 You know, skinny, fat, any ethnicity, it doesn't matter. 1.00

00:25:38.000 And that's one thing I do miss about the job.

00:25:40.000 I miss getting called out at 2 in the morning for the craziest of the crazies.

00:25:43.000 And you show up to do an interview, and essentially, I befriend you, and you either confess, or we find out you really weren't doing anything.

00:25:52.000 I do remember one night, this wasn't undercover, but they called me because towards the end of my career, I was doing nothing but...

00:25:58.000 Mainly domestic terrorism.

00:25:59.000 And they call me.

00:26:00.000 They go, we got one down here. 0.99

00:26:01.000 He's a white supremacist. 0.98

00:26:03.000 He's assaulted a cop, this, that, and the other. 0.99

00:26:04.000 Well, I get down there.

00:26:05.000 It's like 3, 4 in the morning now.

00:26:07.000 I do my spiel.

00:26:08.000 I'm not screaming at the guy.

00:26:09.000 Man, you need something to drink.

00:26:10.000 Here, man, you look cold.

00:26:11.000 Here's a coat.

00:26:12.000 So tell me about what happened.

00:26:14.000 I'm not here for this other stuff.

00:26:15.000 And I start talking.

00:26:17.000 Well, somewhere in there, I'm like, okay, this guy's not a white supremacist.

00:26:20.000 He's a sovereign citizen.

00:26:22.000 Man, he's just anti-government.

00:26:24.000 Pro-sheriff.

00:26:25.000 Elected. But anti-government.

00:26:27.000 Sovereign citizens, I really can't stand to deal with them. 1.00

00:26:30.000 It's like absurdity to the max.

00:26:33.000 Can you explain sovereign citizens to people?

00:26:35.000 You see it all over YouTube.

00:26:39.000 They get pulled over, and I don't need a driver's license.

00:26:41.000 I'm in commerce.

00:26:42.000 I'm in transit. 0.99

00:26:43.000 If they touch you, well, that's rape. 1.00

00:26:45.000 They think they've got $100,000.

00:26:47.000 I'm going to forget it, but it's like $175,000, $250,000 being held by the government for each person.

00:26:53.000 It's crazy.

00:26:54.000 They'll start putting liens on people.

00:26:57.000 People put on training.

00:26:59.000 So when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see like this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit, but I never got that training.

00:27:06.000 Is this legit?

00:27:07.000 You know, I guess I can't pull this guy over.

00:27:09.000 Then you start diving in.

00:27:11.000 You start getting the training. 1.00

00:27:12.000 These people are full of crap. 1.00

00:27:13.000 And then you see the cops popping the window and dragging them out of the car. 1.00

00:27:16.000 You're still going.

00:27:17.000 But this guy was a sovereign citizen.

00:27:20.000 He had a brother.

00:27:23.000 We're talking, and he's telling me this stuff, and the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence, and I'm like, yeah, yeah.

00:27:30.000 And I said, but how do you know that's what the forefathers meant when they signed that?

00:27:35.000 And he said, because I was there, son.

00:27:37.000 Oh, boy.

00:27:38.000 And that's when I went.

00:27:41.000 Oh, he's not just a sovereign citizen. 0.85

00:27:43.000 He's a kook. 1.00

00:27:44.000 He's crazy. 1.00

00:27:46.000 Why did it take me this long to find out? 0.97

00:27:47.000 He said I was there?

00:27:48.000 Yeah, like this.

00:27:50.000 He goes, because I didn't miss a beat.

00:27:51.000 I go, how do you know?

00:27:52.000 Because I was there, son.

00:27:53.000 And I went, there.

00:27:55.000 Oh, you've been reincarnated about four or five times.

00:27:59.000 Oh, boy.

00:28:00.000 And I'm like, and you got this life this time?

00:28:03.000 You got the one you're living right now this time?

00:28:05.000 Well, you're talking to me at four in the morning.

00:28:08.000 You look like you've had a rough life.

00:28:11.000 If I was going to buy into reincarnation, I'd want to come back as maybe like my mom's dog or something like that.

00:28:17.000 Something cool.

00:28:18.000 Yeah, something good.

00:28:19.000 Just a great life.

00:28:21.000 Sleep, eat, and play.

00:28:24.000 So back to the outlaws thing.

00:28:26.000 I go in. 1.00

00:28:27.000 And I'm just shooting the shit. 1.00

00:28:28.000 I'm just working the bar. 1.00

00:28:29.000 I'm telling jokes.

00:28:31.000 You get a crowd of people around you.

00:28:32.000 And that's not trade crowd.

00:28:34.000 I mean, that's just me, right?

00:28:36.000 And by the way, for the listeners who may not know, little intervention.

00:28:41.000 If you buy all your friends all their drinks and their food all the time, they're probably not your friends.

00:28:48.000 You know what I mean?

00:28:50.000 I got all kinds of friends.

00:28:52.000 Those aren't your friends.

00:28:53.000 Stop paying.

00:28:53.000 They won't come around anymore.

00:28:55.000 But that's kind of what I was doing.

00:28:57.000 And then now we get to the night to where the outlaws are leaving their clubhouse.

00:29:02.000 And for the listeners that don't know, in the biker world, especially the 1%er world, there's a mandatory meeting every week at a clubhouse, and they refer to it as church. 1.00

00:29:10.000 So they're leaving church.

00:29:11.000 I get the surveillance team telling me, hey, man, we're leaving church.

00:29:13.000 I'm like, cool.

00:29:14.000 I'm at the bar.

00:29:15.000 Already the foxy lady in Brockton, Massachusetts. 1.00

00:29:19.000 That's a rough town.

00:29:21.000 Right? And marvelous Marvin Hagler.

00:29:23.000 Yeah, yes sir.

00:29:24.000 I'd go for a jog and I'd go home.

00:29:27.000 Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, yeah.

00:29:30.000 But... They tell me they're coming.

00:29:32.000 Now, the intelligence that they had provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, hey, man, can they wear their colors, their cuts, their leathers in the bar?

00:29:40.000 And they said, no, they don't allow that.

00:29:41.000 And I'm thinking in my mind, well, that makes my approach easier because I'm not a tattooed guy watching naked women listening to heavy metal and drinking next to a guy who's watching naked women and heavy metal drinking.

00:29:53.000 They had that part wrong because about 13, 15 outlaws come walking into the bar.

00:29:58.000 Take the whole back bar.

00:29:59.000 They're all wearing their colors.

00:30:01.000 Does that change my approach?

00:30:04.000 I think it does.

00:30:06.000 Unless you want me to go up, and as I say when I'm teaching this, I go up and I go, hey, you boys right?

00:30:15.000 Nothing? No?

00:30:16.000 Alright, fine.

00:30:17.000 I'm going to go back on the other side of the bar. 1.00

00:30:19.000 Please don't beat my ass. 0.99

00:30:22.000 So I just was being loud and boisterous. 1.00

00:30:26.000 Me, that's what I do.

00:30:27.000 It doesn't always work for undercovers.

00:30:29.000 Some people don't like it, but it's my personality.

00:30:31.000 Are you allowed to get drunk?

00:30:34.000 Boy, that's a tricky question.

00:30:36.000 Yes, I can drink.

00:30:37.000 But here's the thing.

00:30:39.000 Let's say that outlaws case.

00:30:41.000 That was two years.

00:30:42.000 So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a Jack and Coke up, right? 0.99

00:30:48.000 I'm anal. 0.99

00:30:50.000 Even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight. 0.99

00:30:53.000 And I wanted to be good.

00:30:55.000 I wanted to always get better and be more well-rounded.

00:30:57.000 So I would watch.

00:30:58.000 And even if I caught myself at five in the morning, six in the morning, slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, dadgummit, man.

00:31:06.000 And then I'd listen, and within five minutes, I'd be back.

00:31:08.000 Because you've got to remember, all that could be played in front of a jury. 0.98

00:31:12.000 And if I'm on there slurring and saying a bunch of stupid stuff, I mean, how does that affect my articulation for what I was doing? 0.95

00:31:20.000 But was my alcohol tolerance very high? 0.99

00:31:23.000 You're a big dude.

00:31:24.000 You probably put some away.

00:31:25.000 I did.

00:31:26.000 I kind of still do.

00:31:28.000 I'll tell you what put me on a three-month timeout was CPI.

00:31:33.000 Really? Yeah, because you go down there and you get the stem cells.

00:31:37.000 Let's explain it.

00:31:37.000 We're talking about the Cellular Performance Institute that my friends run down in Tijuana.

00:31:42.000 Absolutely. Great, great facility.

00:31:44.000 I will tell you, my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, I almost died.

00:31:51.000 I had a hip replacement, and I got sepsis, and I almost died.

00:31:56.000 So 14 days after my total hip replacement.

00:31:58.000 Quickest surgery I've ever had.

00:32:00.000 About 30 minutes.

00:32:00.000 Chop the femur off, drill it, pop.

00:32:02.000 They're walking you out. 0.85

00:32:03.000 You're still very high on all your...

00:32:06.000 They're like, if you can walk, you can go home.

00:32:07.000 And I'm like, I can't walk?

00:32:10.000 But apparently something happened.

00:32:12.000 It got infected.

00:32:12.000 So 14 days later, I had sepsis, and they got it under control, and they went back in and cleaned me all out.

00:32:18.000 I had two hip surgeries in 14 days.

00:32:20.000 So now I'm going to Tijuana, knowing what I know about working the border.

00:32:25.000 Even though I'm friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, and I'm like, man, now I'm going by myself.

00:32:34.000 Best hospital stay I've ever had.

00:32:36.000 TPS is great.

00:32:37.000 It's phenomenal.

00:32:38.000 It's an amazing place.

00:32:39.000 Phenomenal. But what I stopped, cut back on my drinking is I got down there.

00:32:44.000 You can't drink the week before, especially if you're getting the IV stem cells because they travel through your body and they grab stuff.

00:32:50.000 So if you drink and it sees your liver working harder, it's going to go to your liver.

00:32:53.000 So you're kind of wasting the shots.

00:32:56.000 I knew I couldn't drink the week before.

00:32:58.000 I got there and they go, yes, you can't drink for three more months.

00:33:00.000 And I went, three months?

00:33:02.000 And they're like, I said, ain't nobody told me that.

00:33:05.000 And I was like, and I immediately went, I need to cut back anyway.

00:33:08.000 That's fine.

00:33:09.000 But yeah, tolerance was high for them.

00:33:13.000 But you have to be drinking with these folks when you're hanging out with them.

00:33:15.000 You don't have to.

00:33:17.000 But this will go back to an explanation of the undercover school.

00:33:20.000 If you're going to drink, we want you to drink in a controlled environment when you're tired.

00:33:26.000 Because we want you to see how you feel.

00:33:28.000 We also want to see how you behave when you're extremely tired and you're plastered.

00:33:34.000 Right? So you have to know that.

00:33:37.000 In other words, you don't want to find out in the middle of the clubhouse that you can't handle your shit. 1.00

00:33:43.000 Right. So, yeah. 1.00

00:33:46.000 You can drink, but you're being recorded.

00:33:50.000 So be wary about it.

00:33:54.000 What about drug use?

00:33:57.000 Is this tradecraft or not?

00:34:03.000 Maybe this is the easiest way to say it. 1.00

00:34:05.000 If I believe my life is in danger, and like literally, I'm getting ready to die, I will snort the lacquer finish off of this damn table. 0.99

00:34:16.000 And then I'll be like, is that all you got? 0.99

00:34:18.000 You want me to do some more?

00:34:20.000 Right. Because I really don't feel like dying right now.

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00:35:42.000 Terms apply.

00:35:43.000 And then I need to get to the team.

00:35:45.000 I need to get out.

00:35:46.000 I need to get to the case team.

00:35:47.000 And I need to get to an emergency room to make sure I'm not ODing.

00:35:50.000 Especially today with fentanyl and stuff.

00:35:52.000 But that's kind of the general rule.

00:35:56.000 I would say it's probably not a good idea for you to do drugs.

00:36:01.000 Just without answering it completely, let me give you this.

00:36:05.000 You're going to trial.

00:36:07.000 We've got a two-year case against you.

00:36:10.000 And I'm up here articulating what I did.

00:36:13.000 It's in my documents.

00:36:14.000 It's in the recordings.

00:36:16.000 And we have built this case. 0.93

00:36:20.000 Usually, with undercover cases, in my experience, the evidence is so overwhelming, the only thing the defense can claim is entrapment, which you should be able to shoot that down pretty quick if you've done your due diligence, or they try to make you look like a piece of trash on the stand.

00:36:35.000 So imagine if they're saying, well, he did dope with us.

00:36:38.000 You need to be able to articulate, did you?

00:36:40.000 Why did you?

00:36:41.000 That's more movie stuff.

00:36:43.000 It does happen on levels, and I wish it didn't, but it happens on levels where people don't have training.

00:36:51.000 And that's sad, because there have been plenty of people, let's just use biker gangs. 0.85

00:36:56.000 From law enforcement.

00:36:57.000 From local small department all the way up to feds that have infiltrated biker gangs that have patched and gotten their colors. 0.99

00:37:03.000 But the cases went to crap. 0.98

00:37:05.000 They lost themselves. 0.99

00:37:07.000 They lost their marriage.

00:37:08.000 They became addicted to drugs.

00:37:09.000 So we shouldn't be...

00:37:10.000 There's no case worth that.

00:37:12.000 That's the best way to say it.

00:37:14.000 There's no case worth you getting addicted to drugs or endangering yourself.

00:37:18.000 Just walk.

00:37:18.000 So what is the dance of getting to the bar, becoming a regular?

00:37:24.000 And then eventually getting to know these guys.

00:37:27.000 So that first night, I'm being loud and boisterous, and they did say that there was one particular member who loved to be the center of attention, and he loved to be surrounded by big dudes.

00:37:39.000 Take that for what you want.

00:37:41.000 I don't know.

00:37:41.000 I didn't dive too deep into that one, but when you say hang out with big dudes, surrounded.

00:37:46.000 Are we wearing clothes?

00:37:49.000 Why is there a jar of Vaseline over there?

00:37:51.000 What kind of party is this?

00:37:52.000 What's with the cameras?

00:37:56.000 Hey, Scott, have a drink of this before you come in here.

00:37:58.000 And sign this NDA.

00:38:00.000 What? So I start befriending them, and I'm being loud.

00:38:06.000 Let me take it back.

00:38:07.000 I'm being loud.

00:38:08.000 This guy did like attention.

00:38:10.000 He sees it, and he's like, Hey!

00:38:14.000 Hey! Where the F are you from?

00:38:17.000 So I fire some stupid comedy thing back, and we start going back and forth, because he's already asked the bartenders, who the hell's that guy? 1.00

00:38:24.000 Oh, that's Tex. 0.99

00:38:25.000 He comes up here all the time from Texas.

00:38:27.000 I don't come up here all the time.

00:38:28.000 That's human nature.

00:38:29.000 It's like, you know, you caught a fish this big, by the tenth person you're telling, man, there was like ten of them.

00:38:34.000 I had to fight them off with my pinkies. 0.95

00:38:38.000 But... I get called over.

00:38:40.000 I don't know who sent a drink to who first, but he calls me over and just starts shooting the shit with me. 0.89

00:38:46.000 And from then, he pretty much invites me to one of their Northeast regionals called Lobster Fest, held in Brockton at that clubhouse. 0.91

00:38:54.000 And we were kind of on the way.

00:38:57.000 There was a guy who was not patched, and his name was Scott as well.

00:39:02.000 I said the name of the book.

00:39:03.000 It's all adjudicated.

00:39:05.000 It's all in the court proceedings and stuff.

00:39:08.000 But Scott Town was his name, and he was a big dude.

00:39:11.000 He was jacked. 0.77

00:39:13.000 And he came in.

00:39:15.000 I'm in great shape.

00:39:20.000 I'm being me. 1.00

00:39:21.000 I'm talking, shooting the shit. 0.99

00:39:22.000 Not hanging out too much. 0.99

00:39:23.000 I walk back over, play a little, you know, you come chase me kind of thing.

00:39:28.000 So I go to the bathroom and nobody's in there.

00:39:31.000 For the listeners that don't know men's bathrooms and bars, usually at the urinal, there's some kind of box plexiglass with some kind of ads like, hey, this person's coming next week, that stuff.

00:39:40.000 So as I'm peeing, I'm looking at the reflection, and I see the door swing open, and I see this jacked dude, Scott.

00:39:48.000 It must have made an impression, because in the report, I even say he's wearing a gray shirt with black trim.

00:39:53.000 He's completely sleeved out.

00:39:54.000 And I'm getting all this from, you know, sleeved out on the left arm, huge earrings.

00:40:00.000 And I watch him, and I see him kind of ducking and looking under stalls and hitting the doors to make sure nobody else is in the bathroom.

00:40:07.000 I'm acting nonchalant, but then I see him walk up to me.

00:40:10.000 And for that split second, I thought, I'm getting jacked.

00:40:13.000 I'm going to get jumped right here.

00:40:15.000 But he ends up just asking me.

00:40:17.000 What brings you to Massachusetts?

00:40:19.000 I think what happened is they sent him in there to press me.

00:40:22.000 And this is a good lesson.

00:40:24.000 Don't bluff.

00:40:25.000 If you bluff, whatever you say today, you might be still in that case a year and a half, two years later.

00:40:33.000 It needs to match what you said on day one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out.

00:40:40.000 But I said where I'd been around, McAllen, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff, he'd been to all those places because he used to travel the country fighting dogs.

00:40:48.000 So if I'd have been bluffing, I'd have been done right there.

00:40:51.000 And then from there, we start building relationships.

00:40:54.000 Now I'm trying to ingratiate, and I'm getting invited to parties.

00:40:59.000 My story was that I was a site survey specialist, and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas.

00:41:06.000 And I would look at properties that they want to buy, whether it's residential or mercantile, and pull stuff from the clerk of court and all that kind of stuff.

00:41:16.000 As it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes myself.

00:41:21.000 And that's when we started getting into, they were doing insurance fraud first with me.

00:41:27.000 They would report vehicles stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen price.

00:41:32.000 And the story was, since I was based out of McAllen, Texas, I was just using the facts that we were moving vehicles to Mexico in trade for whatever.

00:41:41.000 Guns, most likely dope, but whatever.

00:41:44.000 And that's how we started.

00:41:46.000 And then from there, now you start gaining more trust.

00:41:48.000 You start hanging out more.

00:41:50.000 You become tighter.

00:41:51.000 You're building these relationships.

00:41:54.000 And then it's like, hey, we just carjacked somebody.

00:41:58.000 We got this car.

00:41:59.000 We took this dude at gunpoint.

00:42:00.000 This thing's got LoJack or OnStar or whatever was around in the end.

00:42:03.000 We got to get rid of it.

00:42:04.000 Don't worry about it.

00:42:05.000 I got it.

00:42:05.000 Have a truck driver show up.

00:42:07.000 We load all the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever, on the truck.

00:42:11.000 And they thought they were going to Mexico.

00:42:13.000 They were just going to a warehouse somewhere in Massachusetts.

00:42:16.000 So you never actually brought cars to Mexico?

00:42:19.000 No. So when you would do that, we'd just get cash from the FBI to, like, represent?

00:42:26.000 Yeah. I mean, I would pay them, yeah, a stolen price.

00:42:30.000 Stolen is usually 20% to 25% of what it would normally cost, you know, because it's hot.

00:42:37.000 And that just started gaining trust.

00:42:38.000 I mean, like I said, there was other undercovers that would help.

00:42:42.000 We call those cameos.

00:42:44.000 If you're the primary undercover, that's you.

00:42:47.000 That's your case.

00:42:48.000 A secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together.

00:42:54.000 That's going to be a secondary role.

00:42:55.000 If you're coming in as a truck driver, you're just pulling in the parking lot, we're loading up stuff, that's a cameo.

00:43:00.000 And I've done many cameos for other undercovers as well.

00:43:03.000 You know, just rolling to town, do a deal, whatever.

00:43:06.000 So no one's ever trying to go with you to Mexico to make sure that all this is happening?

00:43:10.000 Not on that case, but if they did want to, we would have to work that out.

00:43:14.000 We would have to have that kind of...

00:43:15.000 I took this from a buddy of mine who I helped certify as an undercover, and I just thought it was a great way to say it.

00:43:24.000 Look, at the end of the day, we want that target going to bed thinking, that was a good day.

00:43:32.000 You don't want them laying in bed going...

00:43:35.000 Man, there's something wasn't right about that guy.

00:43:37.000 Something's not right.

00:43:38.000 Because you want it to be as real as possible.

00:43:41.000 So was it a fact that the cartels at that point in time loved 4x4 V8s and Harley Davidsons?

00:43:49.000 Absolutely. Did they get stolen all the time on the border?

00:43:53.000 Absolutely. So that's factual stuff that's real.

00:43:57.000 So now I'm a guy.

00:43:59.000 They eventually learned and believed that I was a high-ranking High-ranking member of an international theft ring.

00:44:06.000 And that's what we were doing.

00:44:08.000 And then through those, then they start stealing vehicles, which I've got to be careful of.

00:44:12.000 I can't say, hey, I want a brand new F-350 quad cab, because then they go steal it.

00:44:18.000 That's somewhat of entrapment.

00:44:19.000 I just led them to go steal that car, right?

00:44:23.000 But over the next year or so, we're getting more and more stuff.

00:44:27.000 I buy dope from them.

00:44:30.000 Like I said, carjackings, we learned of them, certain members extorting people, like the good old mafia days, you know, extorting businesses, home invasions.

00:44:41.000 But again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, yeah, we robbed that house, is that enough to charge somebody?

00:44:48.000 Probably not.

00:44:49.000 Is an assistant United States attorney going to be like, yeah, that's enough?

00:44:52.000 No, we're going to have to dive in more and find out and vet it out and get that evidence.

00:44:56.000 Wow. Stressful shit. 1.00

00:44:59.000 Slightly. Getting stressed out just thinking about you doing all these things. 1.00

00:45:02.000 Me too.

00:45:03.000 So how long is this relationship while you're building a case?

00:45:07.000 How much time are you spending with these people?

00:45:10.000 For that case, I was probably up there every three weeks for a good week.

00:45:14.000 But then there's constant contact when I'm not there.

00:45:17.000 Text messages.

00:45:19.000 Well, Nexttales were big with them at that point in time.

00:45:21.000 So yeah, chirps.

00:45:22.000 Oh, that's the old days, the walkie-talkie ones.

00:45:25.000 Radio, yeah.

00:45:25.000 Yeah, those were funny.

00:45:27.000 People forgot about them walkie-talkies.

00:45:28.000 Yeah, man.

00:45:29.000 It was crazy about that.

00:45:31.000 You could key up and talk to somebody in Japan, and it'd be crystal clear, but if you tried to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever.

00:45:37.000 Yeah, they were terrible phones.

00:45:38.000 But that's what they used, and that's what I got, and I was mirroring them.

00:45:42.000 But, yeah, so you build those relationships, and it depends.

00:45:45.000 Each case is different, but I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scott Town.

00:45:52.000 It was absolutely scary how similar we were and how tight we were.

00:45:58.000 Now, again, he didn't know I was Scott Payne, FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Calloway.

00:46:03.000 And he knew, I mean, it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op that evening, an operation, they wouldn't put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, hey, is Scott Town going to be there tonight?

00:46:16.000 I'm like, yeah.

00:46:17.000 And even the FBI cover teams and stuff would be like, good, because they knew that he cared enough about me, he'd take a bullet for me and protect me, and vice versa, really.

00:46:26.000 As me and Scott Calloway.

00:46:28.000 And, I mean, we finished each other's sentences.

00:46:31.000 We thought the same, other than the criminal stuff.

00:46:35.000 And some faith belief systems.

00:46:38.000 But, yeah, that was my tightest.

00:46:40.000 And the second one over the two years was probably a guy whose road name was Clothesline.

00:46:45.000 And he was the enforcer for the Taunton chapter.

00:46:47.000 And then after that, it probably would have been the president, which was Joe Dawgs.

00:46:50.000 And then it just trickles down from there.

00:46:52.000 Do you have conflicted feelings when you develop?

00:46:55.000 Like, these relationships with these guys?

00:46:57.000 I did.

00:46:59.000 You can put on as much training.

00:47:01.000 You can get the training.

00:47:03.000 You can be a part of it.

00:47:04.000 I'm still human, you know?

00:47:06.000 Now, was I to a point to where I'm going to go, I'm leaving the FBI and I'm going to become one percenter?

00:47:13.000 Some people do, though, right?

00:47:14.000 I know some people do, but I wasn't there.

00:47:16.000 I wouldn't do that.

00:47:17.000 How often does that happen?

00:47:20.000 Well... In the FBI, probably not a lot, but those cases are well known.

00:47:25.000 If something happens like that, somebody goes rogue, like your breach story and all these people selling secrets and getting people killed, yeah.

00:47:32.000 I wasn't there, nor would I be.

00:47:34.000 I wouldn't be.

00:47:35.000 I would like to think if I did have a 1%er club, nobody would ever infiltrate it, though. 1.00

00:47:39.000 Well, you probably understand how it works.

00:47:42.000 I'm just kidding.

00:47:42.000 But even then, I mean, you're dealing with...

00:47:46.000 Ragamuffin people. 0.99

00:47:47.000 Yeah. But those are like, again, those are my kinds of people.

00:47:51.000 When we're riding around and people are wrestling each other over tables, this is my favorite move, bang.

00:47:57.000 I mean, at one point, I'm driving down the road with Scott Town in a snowstorm, and I'm driving, and I'm like this with my hand.

00:48:04.000 He reaches over out of nowhere and breaks my pinky.

00:48:07.000 Just pop! 0.73

00:48:08.000 And this sucker's like 90 degrees, and I'm like, mother... 0.81

00:48:11.000 I pulled over, I slammed on the break, well, I mean snow, but come to the stop and I go, what the F is your problem? 0.84

00:48:18.000 And he's looking at me and he's going, I don't know what he was on, but he was in an evil space, right? 0.98

00:48:24.000 And I'm looking at him and I'm going, look, if you want to F and fight, we'll stand out in the damn snowstorm right now and we'll go at it. 0.98

00:48:31.000 I know you think you can whip me, but maybe I can whip you. 0.98

00:48:34.000 And I saw it wasn't going anywhere and he was getting more and more angry. 0.96

00:48:37.000 And I just looked at him and I went, he's an animal right now.

00:48:41.000 I'm going to diffuse.

00:48:42.000 I'm going to de-escalate.

00:48:44.000 Which is really what you should be doing as an undercover.

00:48:47.000 And I look over and I go, hey.

00:48:49.000 After I pop my finger in, I go, hey.

00:48:51.000 Sniff. Smell.

00:48:54.000 Good boy.

00:48:56.000 Friend. Friend.

00:48:57.000 Like that.

00:48:58.000 I'm trying to calm him down.

00:48:59.000 Then he starts laughing.

00:49:00.000 But that's the kind of stuff you get.

00:49:01.000 But to me, it was no different than being in college, playing ball.

00:49:04.000 Hanging out with psychos.

00:49:05.000 Yeah. When you're there in the month of August and nobody is there, it's just...

00:49:09.000 24-7 football.

00:49:10.000 What was it like when you eventually brought that guy down?

00:49:13.000 It was sad.

00:49:14.000 It was sad because in that case, there was a point where I had a young daughter.

00:49:24.000 And his youngest daughter was roughly the same age as my daughter.

00:49:28.000 So I'm not at home with my kid, but I'm in his house bouncing his daughter on my lap.

00:49:33.000 And, you know, when they're developing...

00:49:36.000 As a human being, at that stage, they're kind of making the same noises, moving the same way.

00:49:41.000 It was surreal.

00:49:43.000 And then I remember thinking, man, I really like this guy.

00:49:48.000 He likes to drink.

00:49:49.000 I like to drink.

00:49:49.000 He likes to fight.

00:49:50.000 I like to fight.

00:49:51.000 He likes to ride.

00:49:52.000 I like to ride.

00:49:52.000 He likes to live.

00:49:53.000 I like to live.

00:49:54.000 I go, man, we finished each other's things.

00:49:55.000 Everything I already said.

00:49:56.000 And then I look over at his refrigerator.

00:50:00.000 And I see all these stickers and magnets and stuff, and my eyes just settled in on WWSD.

00:50:05.000 And for the listeners that don't know, WWJD is very common in the Christ follower Christian community.

00:50:11.000 What would Jesus do?

00:50:13.000 You see the bracelets all the time.

00:50:15.000 And I looked over and said, WWSD.

00:50:16.000 What would Satan do?

00:50:17.000 And I looked and I went, oh yeah, we're not the same.

00:50:20.000 We're not the same.

00:50:21.000 I'm back.

00:50:24.000 We'd be in the clubhouse and everybody's yelling.

00:50:30.000 Biker Club name is, you usually get these same sayings.

00:50:33.000 So for the outlaws, it's outlaws forever.

00:50:35.000 Forever outlaws.

00:50:37.000 Hell yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:38.000 God forgives, outlaws don't.

00:50:41.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:50:42.000 It's better to be first in hell than second in heaven.

00:50:45.000 And I'm like, what?

00:50:48.000 T, what's...

00:50:49.000 Hang on.

00:50:50.000 I'm like, I'm not saying I'm a chalk-walking Christian because I'm pretending to be a one-percenter, you know, evil man, but what story have you ever heard of hell where it was good? 0.90

00:50:59.000 I mean, are you helping me out here? 0.85

00:51:01.000 So yeah, it's a crazy bunch.

00:51:03.000 But on that case, one of the biggest things that happened is we had been going for a year and a half and doing all these things.

00:51:12.000 They've carjacked stuff.

00:51:14.000 We're getting more and more evidence.

00:51:15.000 There was a Hells Angel president murdered in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

00:51:21.000 Terrible town.

00:51:23.000 Terrible town.

00:51:24.000 Oh, Bridgeport's dangerous.

00:51:25.000 So Bridgeport, Connecticut.

00:51:29.000 The other Hells Angel that was shot didn't die, and he was able to give a description of a green truck with Florida plates.

00:51:37.000 We knew at that time that Florida outlaws were up in that area because they were hanging out with our targets.

00:51:43.000 And even when I would call, I'd be like, hey, man, it's hot here right now.

00:51:46.000 If you come out, you need to be strapping.

00:51:48.000 I'm like, well, I don't want to fly with it.

00:51:49.000 I don't want to put a bullseye on my back back then.

00:51:53.000 I'm like, hey, if I show up, we'll give you a vest.

00:51:55.000 We'll give you a gun kind of thing.

00:51:57.000 So we're doing all that.

00:51:58.000 And now we get to the point to where we can, all the predications there, they've done wiretaps, the case team has been doing a wiretap, they know that there's drug deals going on, they're doing surveillance, and now we're to the point to where we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well.

00:52:17.000 My story was that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because Some of my peeps got popped because the heat was getting close.

00:52:28.000 So I pulled chocks and I was out. 0.75

00:52:29.000 And all I do now is move stolen equipment down because it's a lot less...

00:52:35.000 The way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me.

00:52:39.000 And then they would ask, you know, well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you're working with? 0.65

00:52:45.000 And I go, because I'm the gringo that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through.

00:52:54.000 And that was really happening on the border, and I knew that because I was on the border working it.

00:52:58.000 Again, real things, you're just putting them into your story.

00:53:02.000 But I now let them know it took a long time.

00:53:06.000 I don't put words in their mouth.

00:53:09.000 But I started laying breadcrumbs over weeks and months that I did just to be in the Dope Game.

00:53:15.000 And, of course, Joe Dawg's the president.

00:53:17.000 I mean, the first time I met him, and he said, where are you from?

00:53:20.000 I said, McAllen, Texas, on the border.

00:53:22.000 His next question was, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?

00:53:25.000 And I went, well, if we were needing predication, I think he just gave it.

00:53:30.000 But his business skills weren't that great because I'd say, look, man, about $13,000 is what you could get a kilo for then on the border.

00:53:36.000 He said, man, so if I got 10 of them up here for $13,000, I'm like, no, that's not going to cost $13,000 up here.

00:53:41.000 There's a reason the kilo costs $25,000 to $30,000 up here because somebody has to get it from the border to here.

00:53:48.000 Now, if you want to drive down the border and buy 10 for $13,000 apiece, and you risk taking them back over.

00:53:55.000 So we let it be known that I had some cartels.

00:53:59.000 Of course they knew I had cartel contacts.

00:54:01.000 And we started introducing those.

00:54:03.000 Some cameo undercovers came in.

00:54:05.000 Unbelievable people.

00:54:07.000 And we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection.

00:54:11.000 There was going to be a drug shipment coming in.

00:54:13.000 And my crew was going to be delivering it to another crew.

00:54:16.000 And we needed protection.

00:54:17.000 And we did it in Brockton.

00:54:20.000 And several outlaws hopped in on it.

00:54:23.000 The issue was this.

00:54:25.000 At least one of the big issues.

00:54:27.000 Pretty much that case, I had a great time.

00:54:29.000 Yes, it's violent, and my mentality was changing.

00:54:32.000 There is a podcast that's a series that's going to be coming out with the book, and they actually interview one of the task force officers who was over me.

00:54:46.000 I want to know what you were thinking.

00:54:51.000 I know what I was thinking.

00:54:52.000 And it was really, really surreal to hear him talking about he could see my personality changing.

00:54:58.000 He could see, and like the FBI office might be saying, we want him to patch.

00:55:02.000 And he was over here fighting, going, hell no.

00:55:04.000 We're getting everything we need now. 1.00

00:55:05.000 If he patches, then they can order him to do shit. 0.99

00:55:07.000 And it was just really cool to hear that. 0.98

00:55:10.000 But essentially for the case, it was me, an FBI case agent, and two task force officers.

00:55:16.000 We had Detective Joe Cummins from Brockton PD.

00:55:20.000 Sergeant Higginbottom from the Massachusetts State Troopers, and then an agent with the FBI, and that was it.

00:55:25.000 I mean, they would add some here and there, but for two years, that was it.

00:55:28.000 It was us.

00:55:28.000 So now we get to this point to where we're like, man, let's do this drug protection.

00:55:33.000 And the assistant United States attorney was like, hey, if you're going to be at the clubhouse, or do they talk about this at the clubhouse?

00:55:38.000 We're like, yeah.

00:55:39.000 And he goes, well, that would be awesome if we could get that recorded, because it helps, right, to show what they're planning on doing.

00:55:47.000 So the night before, the deal's supposed to happen.

00:55:50.000 They don't know it, but we've got 40 kilos of real cocaine and 1,000 pounds of weed.

00:55:54.000 Real. So you can imagine SWAT teams are involved.

00:55:58.000 Can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos of cocaine and Brockton and Tauntons are all wide awake for the next week?

00:56:08.000 Or there's ODs, because that's a liability.

00:56:13.000 Did you say you had 40 kilos?

00:56:14.000 There's only 39 here.

00:56:16.000 I don't know.

00:56:17.000 No, I'm just messing with you.

00:56:17.000 But so...

00:56:22.000 So, they say, hey, Joe Dawgs calls me.

00:56:24.000 It's night of church.

00:56:25.000 He says, hey, I need you to come to the clubhouse.

00:56:27.000 I'm like, alright, cool.

00:56:29.000 And of course, I'm thinking, I'm type A. I'm Scott Payne.

00:56:31.000 I got this.

00:56:32.000 Let's go do this, man.

00:56:33.000 These are my boys.

00:56:34.000 I've been doing this a year and a half.

00:56:36.000 And I went into the clubhouse.

00:56:37.000 And what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording devices were at, because that's tradecraft.

00:56:43.000 But let's just say, I had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing.

00:56:47.000 I had a...

00:56:49.000 Completely audio recording device somewhere else on me, and I had a transmitter, batteries, so the team could listen in.

00:56:56.000 And I went into the clubhouse, like normal, but what you can't see, if you go back and you watch the video, is if I'm facing this way, and I'm shooting the shit with you and this is the bar, and you're laughing at my jokes like always, when I would turn my head to look this way, it's still filming.

00:57:14.000 And I didn't see it because I turned my head. 0.98

00:57:16.000 They go stone face.

00:57:19.000 And I missed it.

00:57:20.000 I didn't see it.

00:57:22.000 I do know that when I got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I'm knocking on the door, I'm like, what the, you know, Joe Dog's props, and he goes, hey, hey, we're not ready yet.

00:57:29.000 And I'll go to them, why the hell did you tell me to come?

00:57:31.000 I was being smart.

00:57:32.000 I'm like, what's the deal?

00:57:33.000 Why would you say come if you're not ready?

00:57:35.000 I didn't pick anything up.

00:57:37.000 So I go in, and for the listeners that may not know, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it.

00:57:46.000 Several times they wanted me to patch, but I'm with what I said for the task force officer.

00:57:52.000 I said the same thing. 0.98

00:57:52.000 I'm like, look, if I'm a probate and they say, get your shit text, we're going to go check this dude, I kind of got to go. 0.98

00:58:00.000 I mean, if I don't do it, I'm either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever. 0.98

00:58:04.000 But being a high-ranking member of an international theft ring that they're making money off of, it's a little different.

00:58:10.000 We were getting everything we wanted.

00:58:12.000 So I go in the clubhouse.

00:58:13.000 I miss that.

00:58:14.000 I also miss that in the back, one of them, Chocolate Scott, it looks like he's dancing to the song that's playing, but he's warming up.

00:58:22.000 And I miss that.

00:58:23.000 And then my second closest contact, clothesline, says, Hey Tex, you got a minute?

00:58:28.000 And I said, Yeah.

00:58:29.000 And we walk.

00:58:30.000 I'd been in that clubhouse I don't know how many times, Joe.

00:58:34.000 But there's one door I'd never been in.

00:58:36.000 And that's the door we went in.

00:58:37.000 And it was a very tight stairwell.

00:58:39.000 Into, you can say a basement, but that's being very, I'm stretching it.

00:58:45.000 Because I could probably touch the wall on both sides and I couldn't stand up straight.

00:58:48.000 So they bring me down in there.

00:58:50.000 They've brandished their weapons.

00:58:51.000 One of them walks in behind me.

00:58:53.000 He's on the steps.

00:58:54.000 So they got their pistols. 1.00

00:58:55.000 And my friend says, hey, there's a lot of shit going on. 0.99

00:59:00.000 It's my job to take care of my brothers. 0.99

00:59:02.000 I need you to write down your full name, your address, your phone number.

00:59:06.000 All kinds of stuff.

00:59:08.000 And I need you to take off all your clothes.

00:59:10.000 I need to check you for a wire.

00:59:12.000 Here's the problem.

00:59:14.000 Had I not been wired, embarrassing, yes. 0.93

00:59:17.000 Naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement.

00:59:21.000 Yeah, that would have been bad, but it would have been no threat.

00:59:26.000 But I was wired to the hilt.

00:59:28.000 And so you think, man, do you fight?

00:59:31.000 Do you try to get out?

00:59:32.000 Well, there's already two or three there. 0.99

00:59:34.000 I'm probably going to do some Tommy boy shit and knock myself out on the joist as soon as I start trying to fight. 0.99

00:59:39.000 And then upstairs, there's, what, ten more outlaws. 0.97

00:59:42.000 And that door, what I was getting into earlier, I didn't say, if you're not a patch member, you can't touch the door.

00:59:48.000 That door has more than one deadbolt on it.

00:59:50.000 They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those, like, shipyard metal bars across.

00:59:55.000 So from a breacher's standpoint, it's a fortified door.

00:59:58.000 It might be easier to breach the wall next to it.

01:00:02.000 So we're down there in the basement.

01:00:04.000 And when I go to write my name down, I forgot my middle name. 0.76

01:00:09.000 And that's because I was having a no-crap moment.

01:00:11.000 I had an adrenaline dump.

01:00:12.000 Same thing as cops in shootouts, military in shootouts, somebody in a car wreck, first time.

01:00:17.000 When you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down.

01:00:21.000 You get auditory exclusion.

01:00:23.000 So everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater.

01:00:24.000 It's going whoosh.

01:00:26.000 It's slow like you're talking to me like this.

01:00:30.000 Time dilation.

01:00:31.000 Your eyes are clicking.

01:00:32.000 You look and everything's in frames.

01:00:34.000 Everything's slowing down.

01:00:35.000 Your hamstrings get really rubbery.

01:00:37.000 You feel your heart beating.

01:00:39.000 I mean, you feel everything pulsing.

01:00:41.000 And what seems like 10-15 minutes is probably 30 seconds.

01:00:46.000 And that happens.

01:00:47.000 That's an adrenaline dump.

01:00:48.000 So that was happening.

01:00:50.000 And I forgot my middle name.

01:00:51.000 And I'm going Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway. 0.98

01:00:54.000 I start going through this damn Rolodex in my head and I'm going Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway. 0.97

01:00:57.000 And I'm going Scott Joseph. 1.00

01:00:58.000 I go, damn it. 0.99

01:00:59.000 That was my middle name for another alias, you know. 0.99

01:01:02.000 And I don't realize that I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence.

01:01:10.000 I would have never...

01:01:12.000 Known I said it, would have never agreed I said it had I not seen it in the recording.

01:01:15.000 But I turn and I go, and what else do you need?

01:01:17.000 And by the way, you've got a bass line of me now, my voice.

01:01:20.000 It did not sound like this on that recording.

01:01:23.000 My throat was tight.

01:01:24.000 The octaves, I mean, it was very higher than normal.

01:01:27.000 And I'm like not even enunciating that well.

01:01:29.000 I'm like, and what else do you need?

01:01:32.000 And they're like, what?

01:01:32.000 I go, my name and what else?

01:01:34.000 Well, now I hear them scream up and they go, what else do you need for that website?

01:01:38.000 So now I know, oh, are they going to Google me?

01:01:40.000 Back then there was whosarat.com, things like that.

01:01:44.000 So I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence. 0.86

01:01:46.000 And then I remember my middle name was, my initials were SAC because I'm an idiot and I thought it was funny because SAC is the head of an FBI division and I knew I was never going to be one. 0.68

01:01:56.000 So I made my initials SAC.

01:01:58.000 So I remember my name, Scott Andrew Calloway.

01:02:01.000 And then I write that down.

01:02:02.000 Well, now I take off all my clothes.

01:02:04.000 I take off my outer clothing, all my shirts.

01:02:07.000 I take my boots off.

01:02:08.000 And I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles.

01:02:13.000 So, pretty much naked from ankles.

01:02:15.000 I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up.

01:02:17.000 And he starts searching me. 0.99

01:02:19.000 And I'm, again, I'm having an oh shit moment. 0.99

01:02:22.000 And he's trying to talk to me. 0.99

01:02:24.000 And, like, we had known each other for a year and a half.

01:02:28.000 So I'm not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, tell me I'm okay.

01:02:37.000 Is this okay?

01:02:38.000 Well, Clothesline, because we were tight, hits me back with a face look that's like everything's all right.

01:02:44.000 This is just procedure.

01:02:45.000 However, he didn't know that I'm an undercover agent and I'm wired.

01:02:48.000 So that adds a whole other issue.

01:02:51.000 So he searches me.

01:02:53.000 I think we're done.

01:02:54.000 At one point, he even tells me.

01:02:56.000 He says, trust me. 1.00

01:02:58.000 If somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the fucking mouth. 1.00

01:03:01.000 And I said, those are his words. 1.00

01:03:04.000 And I immediately said, well, I'm not happy.

01:03:06.000 I'll tell you what I did do.

01:03:07.000 I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor.

01:03:10.000 And I've had people ask me, what does that mean?

01:03:12.000 And I go, well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor and they're telling you to walk on it.

01:03:17.000 They're going to cut you open.

01:03:18.000 Yeah. It's to clean up the blood. 0.79

01:03:21.000 I didn't see that.

01:03:22.000 I saw a rope.

01:03:23.000 I saw pistols.

01:03:24.000 And I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there.

01:03:28.000 And one piece.

01:03:30.000 So he finishes, and he's saying something. 0.99

01:03:35.000 He goes, wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to your town and starts doing all this shit with you? 0.99

01:03:40.000 I said, yeah, if you came to me. 0.99

01:03:42.000 I didn't come to you guys.

01:03:44.000 Y'all called me over. 1.00

01:03:45.000 Nobody has to do this shit. 0.99

01:03:47.000 I'm like, what do we, you know, nobody has to do anything, right? 1.00

01:03:52.000 And I think we're done.

01:03:53.000 So I pull my pants back up, and I think we're done.

01:03:56.000 And he grabs a piece of clothing of mine.

01:03:59.000 And he starts kneading it and going through it.

01:04:01.000 Now, this is 2005 to 2007-ish.

01:04:06.000 So technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is.

01:04:11.000 But let's just say this.

01:04:13.000 Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would have felt something.

01:04:17.000 And he says, as a joke, when he starts, he goes, Hey, I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to.

01:04:25.000 Like some naked pictures of my old lady. 0.98

01:04:27.000 And he laughs. 0.78

01:04:27.000 And his laugh is like... 0.78

01:04:28.000 And my laugh is like...

01:04:30.000 You know?

01:04:32.000 And then I'm watching him go down this piece of clothing.

01:04:36.000 And he's doing this.

01:04:37.000 And he's kneading it.

01:04:38.000 And you can hear...

01:04:40.000 Again, I don't know how to do it.

01:04:41.000 But on the recording, you can hear me go...

01:04:45.000 An audible sigh.

01:04:49.000 Because I'm like watching it.

01:04:50.000 I'm going, what the...

01:04:51.000 What am I going to do?

01:04:53.000 So here's how it ends.

01:04:56.000 He doesn't find it.

01:04:57.000 Wow. Almost.

01:04:59.000 I mean, like, very, very close.

01:05:03.000 And by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up, and now I've got another adrenaline dump.

01:05:07.000 And now I've come in, I'm like, son of a, you know, it's peaks and valleys.

01:05:11.000 And everybody that I've taught this to, or spoke about it to, always asked, they're like, man, what would you have said?

01:05:18.000 And I'll tell you, I had two responses. 0.95

01:05:21.000 Because I'm a jovial idiot, my first response, if he would have said, What is this? 0.99

01:05:25.000 I would have probably said, I don't know, some naked pictures of you old lady to try to buy myself some time, maybe make him quit searching. 1.00

01:05:31.000 The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday, I would have said, the gig is up, I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose.

01:05:44.000 Here's the issue.

01:05:45.000 As I get a swig.

01:05:50.000 That would have been a bluff on my part.

01:05:52.000 Because as far as I knew, Every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me.

01:05:59.000 For whatever reasons.

01:06:00.000 Because somebody's going to say it's Tradecraft, but again, this is 2005 to 2008, but they could never really hear me in that clubhouse.

01:06:08.000 And I make it out.

01:06:12.000 I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dawgs that night.

01:06:15.000 But what happens is I am legitimately pissed off.

01:06:19.000 Because now my adrenaline's coming back down.

01:06:21.000 And I'm...

01:06:22.000 I'm taking it personal.

01:06:23.000 I shouldn't.

01:06:24.000 I'm undercover as an FBI agent.

01:06:26.000 I'm not really Scott Calloway.

01:06:28.000 I mean, I'm kind of Scott Calloway.

01:06:28.000 But you're so deep in the role.

01:06:30.000 Well, and it's really me, kind of.

01:06:31.000 I mean, that's the whole thing.

01:06:32.000 I never was far off of who I really am in life.

01:06:35.000 A pedophile?

01:06:36.000 Yeah. You hire me to kill somebody? 1.00

01:06:38.000 No, I'm not going to ingratiate with you. 1.00

01:06:39.000 I'm a stone-cold killer. 0.91

01:06:41.000 But I'm hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever.

01:06:45.000 Yeah, the jokes are kind of the same.

01:06:48.000 So I'm pissed.

01:06:49.000 At one point, I'm telling Joe Dawgs, I'm like, you know what, man? 0.99

01:06:52.000 F all you sons.

01:06:53.000 I said, y'all show up tomorrow? 1.00

01:06:54.000 I said, I'm stripping all y'all in the damn parking lot. 0.99

01:06:57.000 They were nice. 0.99

01:06:58.000 They let me vent my stuff.

01:07:01.000 Well, that night, when I went to turn in my equipment at an undisclosed location, probably 3, 4, or 5 in the morning, to the case team, what I found out was this.

01:07:13.000 The shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom.

01:07:15.000 Everybody called him Higgy.

01:07:17.000 And Joe.

01:07:17.000 The detectives.

01:07:19.000 The detective.

01:07:20.000 These guys are awesome.

01:07:22.000 Phenomenal law enforcement officers.

01:07:25.000 Although I think their love language is yelling.

01:07:30.000 Maybe that's my southern thing mixing with the northeast thing.

01:07:33.000 But they told me.

01:07:35.000 They said, Scott, we heard you in there.

01:07:37.000 And I'm like, what?

01:07:39.000 When I had that first interaction with Joe Dawgs.

01:07:42.000 They are very street smart.

01:07:44.000 They're very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever.

01:07:48.000 Something that happened in that first interaction made their spidey senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer, say, something's not right.

01:07:56.000 They had pulled close enough.

01:07:57.000 They heard everything.

01:07:59.000 They put on their vest.

01:08:01.000 They suited up.

01:08:01.000 And because they had been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door.

01:08:10.000 Oh, my God.

01:08:11.000 Just to smash that, you know.

01:08:12.000 Sometimes I'm teaching this.

01:08:14.000 I'll joke about it and say it probably would have killed me because I was in the basement, you know.

01:08:18.000 Reverse. Back up.

01:08:20.000 You're so damn heavy.

01:08:22.000 But at that moment, I was scared to death, right? 0.64

01:08:25.000 So they tell me what happened was they pulled close enough they heard everything.

01:08:31.000 They're suiting up.

01:08:32.000 They have radioed now because it's kind of the beginning of the shift.

01:08:35.000 They've radioed now back to Boston.

01:08:37.000 Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to Holland Ass to Taunton, Massachusetts.

01:08:43.000 So I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine.

01:08:47.000 We went through the FBI Academy together.

01:08:49.000 And that night, again, I'm still shell-shocked.

01:08:53.000 He says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you.

01:08:59.000 And I looked at him and I said, you weren't. 0.99

01:09:04.000 I said, because I was looking for any friendly face I could find in that damn hole. 0.98

01:09:10.000 But so that night, we haven't talked about my family. 0.99

01:09:15.000 I try not.

01:09:16.000 Well, I take it back.

01:09:17.000 In the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended.

01:09:23.000 You know, 9-1-1 hangups, stuff like that.

01:09:26.000 But at that point in time, I bought my wife, everybody's pretty familiar now with the burner phone, but I bought my wife a phone that came back to nothing so my undercover phone could call that phone, not violating the operational security.

01:09:40.000 That night, Joe, when I called her, I'd always call her every night.

01:09:44.000 Again, 5, 7 in the morning, it didn't matter.

01:09:46.000 And it might just be she wakes up and says hello, and I go, hey, I just wanted you to know I'm done.

01:09:49.000 I'm heading back to the hotel room.

01:09:51.000 Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I'll call you.

01:09:53.000 It might be that quick.

01:09:54.000 That night when I called her, the first thing she said to me was, are you okay?

01:10:00.000 She felt it.

01:10:02.000 I said, yeah, why?

01:10:03.000 And she said, I was driving with our daughters at such and such time in McAllen, and she said she got this overwhelming feeling and pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for me.

01:10:13.000 And I matched it up.

01:10:14.000 That's when I was in the basement. 0.99

01:10:17.000 So, say what you will, but damn. 1.00

01:10:22.000 Wow. Yeah. 1.00

01:10:24.000 Apparently, my oh shit signal. 0.99

01:10:26.000 Apparently, I don't need Verizon or anything because it went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas. 0.99

01:10:32.000 But it's just, I mean, that's just one of the little, one of the things that happen and it just takes a toll on you over time.

01:10:40.000 I can only imagine.

01:10:42.000 Yeah, so I'll get you to the next day.

01:10:45.000 We do the deal.

01:10:46.000 Clothesline doesn't show up.

01:10:48.000 Well, that pisses me off.

01:10:50.000 Wait a minute, you're supposed to be my boy. 1.00

01:10:52.000 And you took me into the damn basement and stripped me at gunpoint. 1.00

01:10:56.000 But you can't come up? 0.99

01:10:57.000 You don't show up the next day and help with this thing?

01:11:00.000 Again, I'm taking it personally.

01:11:01.000 I shouldn't.

01:11:03.000 So everybody knew there was a beef.

01:11:05.000 Let's just fast forward a month or two.

01:11:06.000 I go back home.

01:11:07.000 I come back.

01:11:09.000 And Big Scotty had even said, he goes, look, these guys are going to settle this like grown men face to face. 0.99

01:11:13.000 It ain't going to happen over the damn phone. 0.97

01:11:14.000 So the next time I go back to Massachusetts. 0.99

01:11:19.000 I'm at a cantina we used to go hang at and drink at in Bridgewater.

01:11:24.000 Another hard town.

01:11:25.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:11:27.000 So, yeah, these are my people.

01:11:29.000 This is where I get called.

01:11:31.000 We did not do any meetings at the Long Wharf Marriott.

01:11:34.000 You know what I mean?

01:11:36.000 How would you like to meet me at Legal Seafoods tonight?

01:11:39.000 My fellow criminals, you know?

01:11:42.000 Yeah, so I'm at this cantina and Clothesline walks in. 0.99

01:11:48.000 Now, you've got to remember, the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement. 0.98

01:11:53.000 And he looked a little rough, like a little whipped, you know, like he'd been disheveled. 0.97

01:11:59.000 And he says, hey, man, can I talk to you for a minute?

01:12:01.000 And the first thing I said was no.

01:12:04.000 And he says, why? 1.00

01:12:05.000 I said, because the last time you asked me that shit, I ended up naked in the basement. 1.00

01:12:08.000 No. So he says, I was like that. 1.00

01:12:11.000 So we went back in the kitchen, and we're talking.

01:12:14.000 And what we learned, or what I learned, and the case team learned, is...

01:12:18.000 When we upped the ante to do that drug deal, and again, a lot of those outlaws were pushing for it, because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for?

01:12:25.000 Cheaper product, higher quality.

01:12:28.000 It's just more money for you, right?

01:12:29.000 So he was really, especially Joe Dog, they wanted to get a pipeline.

01:12:33.000 They wanted to get an introduction to the cartel so they could get quality dope, you know, and have a very successful business.

01:12:41.000 So I'm in there with him, and I'm ready to go to blows if we have to.

01:12:47.000 And he starts talking to me.

01:12:48.000 And he says, you know, Scott, he said, what had happened, what I was going to tell you, is that the call went up to the top.

01:12:56.000 And the top to us meant Milwaukee Jack was the national president.

01:13:01.000 And this makes a hard argument for when they say, it's not an organization.

01:13:05.000 You do your own stuff.

01:13:06.000 We only DM each other.

01:13:08.000 Nobody knows each other's business.

01:13:09.000 Well, then how did it go to the top of the outlaws who said, has this guy ever really been checked?

01:13:14.000 And they go back and say, well, we've done like six to eight jobs with him, and we're not in bracelets, meaning handcuffs.

01:13:20.000 And he said, I don't care.

01:13:21.000 Check them.

01:13:21.000 So now, that's when I get stripped in the basement.

01:13:25.000 I learned that, and this is what Clothesline tells me. 0.98

01:13:30.000 And you gotta remember, my mindset is, screw this guy, I'm ready to go to blows. 1.00

01:13:33.000 I'm not gonna look like a bitch. 1.00

01:13:35.000 And he says, man, I know I was born to be an outlaw. 1.00

01:13:40.000 I'm either gonna die young or die in jail.

01:13:42.000 He said, and these are my brothers.

01:13:44.000 He said, but I really don't have a lot of friends. 0.98

01:13:47.000 And he said, ones that I know would take a bullet for me and I'd take a bullet for them. 1.00

01:13:52.000 And that's when I start looking at his face and I'm going, oh shit, don't you say it, man. 1.00

01:13:56.000 Don't you say it. 1.00

01:13:58.000 And he says, And you're one of those people.

01:14:01.000 So now I'm like, ugh.

01:14:03.000 And he says, the reason he didn't show up is because he felt so bad for what he had to do to me in the basement that night.

01:14:10.000 He got so obliterated that night, he was passed out through the whole drug deal the next day.

01:14:18.000 So that night when I called my wife, she says hello, and my first words are, or she's like, how's it going?

01:14:26.000 How did it go? 0.99

01:14:27.000 My first words are, I am a dick. 1.00

01:14:29.000 I go, I am such a dick. 1.00

01:14:31.000 This guy loves me. 0.99

01:14:33.000 He cares about me.

01:14:35.000 Now, that's the real side.

01:14:37.000 That's the human side.

01:14:38.000 Now, there might be, you know, we don't train that way.

01:14:41.000 We tell you, look, that's not you, but I'm still human.

01:14:43.000 I'm out there.

01:14:46.000 I'm surprised we haven't said this yet.

01:14:48.000 A lot of times, if I'm speaking or teaching or whatever, I'll put up there, what does undercover mean to you?

01:14:53.000 So I'll ask you, what do you think undercover is?

01:14:55.000 You're pretending.

01:14:56.000 Okay, you're pretending.

01:14:58.000 Infiltrate an organization?

01:15:00.000 Pretend to be one of them?

01:15:01.000 I get that a lot.

01:15:03.000 I get lying.

01:15:05.000 We hear acting.

01:15:07.000 You're a character.

01:15:09.000 Here is the definition of undercover work.

01:15:12.000 You are building relationships that you're going to betray. 0.99

01:15:15.000 And that sucks. 0.99

01:15:17.000 If you look at it that way... 0.97

01:15:18.000 Especially if you genuinely have something in common with these guys.

01:15:22.000 Right. And you actually like their company.

01:15:23.000 Now, don't get me wrong.

01:15:24.000 If you haven't done anything illegal...

01:15:27.000 Well, then, no, I'm really not.

01:15:28.000 I mean, I guess I'm still betraying you because you thought I was somebody else, but we're not arresting you.

01:15:32.000 I've done undercovers like that.

01:15:33.000 Those happen all the time.

01:15:34.000 You're in there for five months, and you're like, there's nothing federal here.

01:15:37.000 I mean, they're within their constitutional rights, and you just bail.

01:15:42.000 But you have to...

01:15:46.000 You are basically building and betraying relationships, especially if you're gathering evidence of criminal activity.

01:15:51.000 And you need to know how you're going to deal with that.

01:15:54.000 Rationalize that in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche.

01:15:58.000 And that's tough, you know?

01:16:02.000 I'll fast-forward you a little bit.

01:16:04.000 I crashed on that case for a three-year period.

01:16:08.000 I'd been going nonstop.

01:16:10.000 And I'm not saying I'm tough.

01:16:12.000 I met my threshold.

01:16:13.000 I think your threshold changes every day.

01:16:16.000 Just like your comfort zone.

01:16:17.000 Some days I take off jogging at 54 years old. 0.97

01:16:20.000 Sometimes I take off running and I go, it's going to be a damn good day.

01:16:23.000 I feel light, fluffy, floating on the clouds.

01:16:27.000 Some days I take off running and I go, how long have I been running?

01:16:30.000 Two minutes. 1.00

01:16:31.000 Damn. It's going to be a long day. 1.00

01:16:34.000 So your comfort zone changes.

01:16:35.000 I think your threshold changes, but I go into great detail in the book.

01:16:41.000 But for three years, I had been...

01:16:45.000 Doing too much.

01:16:47.000 Well, I say doing too much, but even when I moved to Tennessee, I did too much again.

01:16:53.000 I just learned how to balance it better.

01:16:55.000 I'm a workaholic.

01:16:56.000 I love working.

01:16:57.000 I love doing it all.

01:16:58.000 SWAT call-outs, running tactical schools here, case agent first, building cases, putting bad people in jail, undercover.

01:17:07.000 But I had stopped taking days off because I didn't want to give management a reason to tell me I couldn't go do an undercover.

01:17:13.000 I just work through the weekend or be undercover through the weekend, come back, type up all my stuff, then run my cases.

01:17:20.000 Teaching all the tactics and firearms for McAllen and Brownsville agents, resident agents, which is just satellite offices out of San Antonio.

01:17:30.000 On SWAT, running firearms for them, stuff like that.

01:17:33.000 And I just stopped taking care of myself.

01:17:35.000 So we get to a point to where...

01:17:39.000 Like I said, in great detail in the book, but just picture this.

01:17:41.000 I already gave you a little bit of a blurb on the undercover school, right?

01:17:44.000 Two weeks, no days off.

01:17:46.000 Let's just say I'm there for 10 days.

01:17:47.000 Well, once we put you to bed, we're probably going to hang out and drink a little bit because you're my peer.

01:17:53.000 And it's also therapy.

01:17:55.000 And it's good to know that you're not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the same thing you are.

01:18:01.000 And there's a lot of bonding that goes on there.

01:18:03.000 But that means for 10 days, I'm not getting a whole lot of sleep.

01:18:07.000 Man, I've probably got too much alcohol in my system, if we're being transparent.

01:18:11.000 But then I leave straight from that undercover school, and I go right into an undercover.

01:18:16.000 And let's just say I land in Sturgis, which I did.

01:18:19.000 And the Hells Angels shoot five outlaws at point-blank range, my first day there.

01:18:23.000 Like, I hadn't even been in town like an hour.

01:18:25.000 Now, there's two old ladies, two patch members, and a probate, but they're all shot.

01:18:29.000 They confirmed it was the Hells Angels.

01:18:30.000 We're talking paralyzed from the waist down for life.

01:18:33.000 We're talking crushed clavicles.

01:18:35.000 I mean, not just like a zinger.

01:18:38.000 And now you're back doing that for days on end.

01:18:41.000 And when I would get home, I would stop taking care of myself.

01:18:45.000 I got to the point to where I was a walking zombie.

01:18:49.000 I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers.

01:18:53.000 I was taking hydroxy cuts like crazy.

01:18:54.000 I was making the strongest coffee I could possibly make.

01:18:59.000 And I'd drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep.

01:19:02.000 So what I learned through the book process, even though I'd learned a lot already, I found out from my wife.

01:19:08.000 I was a ghost, man.

01:19:09.000 I'd come home from SWAT, work, undercover, whatever.

01:19:13.000 I'd be on the couch and my daughters would be on my lap. 0.97

01:19:16.000 I'd help put them to bed.

01:19:18.000 But my wife couldn't even ask me a simple question about the bills. 1.00

01:19:23.000 You know, hey, there's this bill I got.

01:19:24.000 Do whatever you got.

01:19:25.000 I can't think.

01:19:26.000 I just need to.

01:19:27.000 And she wanted to do everything she could to support me and just let me veg and not put anything on my plate.

01:19:34.000 So we get to the end of the outlaw case, and I'm starting to crash.

01:19:38.000 Didn't know it.

01:19:40.000 If you are a certified undercover and you are active in the FBI, you mandatorily have to be psychologically assessed.

01:19:48.000 Twice a year.

01:19:50.000 That whole thing is called Safeguard.

01:19:52.000 I'm not outing anything.

01:19:53.000 It's out there.

01:19:54.000 It's on the internet.

01:19:55.000 But the Safeguard process was created by Joe Pistone.

01:19:59.000 Donnie Brasco.

01:20:00.000 It was created by Joe and a former agent who was, his background was a clinical psychologist, Steve Band.

01:20:08.000 And they came up with this because Joe, you've got to remember when Joe was undercover, there was no attorney general guidelines.

01:20:14.000 There probably wasn't even an operational procedure manual for undercovers.

01:20:17.000 It was like...

01:20:19.000 Here's money.

01:20:20.000 Here's your recorders.

01:20:21.000 Go make a case.

01:20:21.000 He was one of the first 25 undercovers in the FBI in 1972.

01:20:26.000 That happened right after Hoover left.

01:20:28.000 Hoover did not believe in the undercover technique, but as soon as he was out, they started working undercover.

01:20:34.000 But the safeguard process goes like you take a bunch of psychological tests.

01:20:39.000 And then you're going to sit down.

01:20:40.000 You're going to take a break.

01:20:41.000 It's going to put a bunch of numbers into some charts.

01:20:43.000 You're going to sit down with a clinical psychologist.

01:20:45.000 They may be an agent for the FBI or they may be contracted in.

01:20:47.000 They're going to go over all that stuff with you.

01:20:49.000 They're going to dive deep into your psyche.

01:20:51.000 Try to.

01:20:52.000 And then after that, you're going to sit down with somebody like a pistone or an experienced undercover. 0.97

01:20:57.000 Because you know the old saying, you can't bullshit a bullshitter? 0.72

01:21:00.000 Well, we use undercover, you see, as a verb. 0.98

01:21:03.000 You can't you see a you see.

01:21:07.000 I remember going to take one of the tests as an open-ended sentence.

01:21:10.000 You have to fill in the blanks.

01:21:11.000 So I'm on my way to Daytona at a world run with the outlaws, still rolling heavy in the case.

01:21:17.000 And I stopped off at an undisclosed location to do the assessment.

01:21:23.000 And I remember, like the open-ended sentence might be, men are, and you've got to finish it. 0.99

01:21:28.000 I'd always say men. 0.68

01:21:30.000 Women are. 1.00

01:21:31.000 I'd put women. 0.95

01:21:32.000 They'd be like, what do you mean?

01:21:33.000 I go, you know what I mean.

01:21:34.000 I'm not opening that can of worms.

01:21:37.000 No, we're different.

01:21:39.000 How's that?

01:21:41.000 But there was one that said, the last time I relaxed, I. And I couldn't think anything.

01:21:46.000 Wow. Nothing.

01:21:47.000 And that's not me BSing.

01:21:48.000 I'm like sitting there at the table going, well, I work out all the time.

01:21:52.000 I'm like, but that's not relaxing. 0.98

01:21:54.000 It's not like I'm namaste and listen to Yanni and shit. 0.94

01:21:57.000 I'm like, I'm trying to throw 45s across the gym, you know? 0.98

01:22:01.000 But I'm like, hmm.

01:22:03.000 So I just made up a story.

01:22:04.000 Even at that moment, I thought, man, that's really screwed up.

01:22:07.000 Wow. But I was like, yeah, ain't a big deal.

01:22:11.000 And again, way more detail in the book.

01:22:15.000 But the thing that happened to me was I ended up, I'm out partying with Outlaws and Mongols all night. 0.97

01:22:24.000 I wake up the next morning.

01:22:25.000 I mean, you can hear and feel the whiskey and eggs swishing in your belly.

01:22:29.000 You know that.

01:22:31.000 And I'm like, I just feel disgusted.

01:22:33.000 I'm going to start working out.

01:22:34.000 So I'm in the hotel room doing, before P90 came out, but kind of that thing.

01:22:39.000 Burpees, mountain climbers, push-ups, air squats, sit-ups, all this stuff.

01:22:44.000 And I came up, and by the way, this is after I hit the inhaler, took a decongestant, antihistamine, three hydroxy cuts, two cups of coffee.

01:22:52.000 I don't know if there was anything else in there.

01:22:54.000 I later learned that that was basically a cocktail for an anxiety attack.

01:22:58.000 I was like, who knew?

01:23:01.000 It doesn't make a lot of sense, but I had an anxiety attack.

01:23:04.000 I was trying to work out.

01:23:05.000 I came up for air, hyperventilated, forgot all about combat breathing, forgot about paper bags.

01:23:11.000 But did I stop?

01:23:12.000 Did I say, man, that's really screwed up? 0.60

01:23:15.000 No. I took a nap, got up, started drinking Jack Daniels and went back.

01:23:20.000 But when I flew home...

01:23:23.000 I slept wheels up to wheels down until I hit Houston.

01:23:27.000 And then I slept wheels up to wheels down until I got to McAllen.

01:23:30.000 And I think probably the first two days, I might have slept close to 20 hours a day.

01:23:36.000 But for the whole week, from Sunday to Friday, I slept an average of 16 plus hours a day.

01:23:43.000 Wow. And I wasn't.

01:23:44.000 I wasn't.

01:23:45.000 Depressed. I wasn't sick.

01:23:47.000 I know what they both feel like. 0.96

01:23:48.000 I was that damn tired. 0.92

01:23:50.000 So by Friday morning, I take a phone call from a former good buddy of mine. 0.51

01:23:56.000 He is probably one of the best undercovers I've ever seen.

01:23:59.000 But he was calling me about a possible another biker case.

01:24:02.000 And his first question was, how you doing, country?

01:24:04.000 And I'm like, not too good.

01:24:06.000 And then he let me talk for an hour and convinced myself I needed to call Safeguard.

01:24:11.000 So I called them.

01:24:12.000 They came in and did an on-site assessment.

01:24:14.000 They diagnosed me as over-assigned, and they said, you can continue the case on the phone until they take it down.

01:24:24.000 And I stayed on the phone.

01:24:26.000 I made a story up because I'd gotten married, technically.

01:24:29.000 And I told them I was getting a divorce, but I had to relocate my wife and my kids to El Paso, where her family was at.

01:24:36.000 Once that's done, I'm pulling chocks. 1.00

01:24:37.000 I'm coming to Massachusetts.

01:24:39.000 We had already created, it was in the creation, our own biker club, that it was approved by the top of the outlaws to be the number one support club in the Northeast. 0.51

01:24:48.000 And we were going to name it the Righteous Few.

01:24:50.000 Scott Town was going to be the president.

01:24:51.000 I was going to be an officer in it.

01:24:54.000 Sergeant-at-arms.

01:24:55.000 And I never went back up there because they told me I couldn't.

01:25:00.000 When you get put on timeout, it's like, no travel.

01:25:03.000 You can be a case agent.

01:25:04.000 We're going to suggest to your division no travel.

01:25:07.000 Definitely no undercover work.

01:25:10.000 There was some confusion there because one of the arguments is you need to You need to get back in to being a case agent and remember what you're supposed to be doing.

01:25:19.000 And I'm like, I never stopped being a case. 0.67

01:25:20.000 I'm running all these damn cases while all this is going on. 0.98

01:25:23.000 But I took a time out. 0.99

01:25:27.000 I made some phone calls.

01:25:29.000 There was one guy named Tim Sylvia, not the fighter, who is a buddy now, by the way.

01:25:35.000 This guy's name was Tim Sylvia.

01:25:37.000 He had been in prison most of his life.

01:25:40.000 But before I stopped going up there, he was introduced to me.

01:25:45.000 He knew about the cocaine.

01:25:46.000 He knew about what I did.

01:25:47.000 He calls me and says, man, I got some stolen vehicles for you.

01:25:52.000 I'm in the magic powder business.

01:25:54.000 If you can get me those bricks or whatever he called them, code on the phone, for 18 apiece, I can buy 10 of them right now.

01:26:03.000 So I called the case team and said, look, he's reaching out to me.

01:26:05.000 I can't come back up there.

01:26:07.000 So we rigged it up to where the guys that were posing as my truck drivers went.

01:26:12.000 And they were going to pick up these stolen vehicles.

01:26:14.000 They had like a 7 Series BMW worth $100 plus grand at the time.

01:26:19.000 And some other vehicles.

01:26:21.000 While they were with them.

01:26:22.000 So here I am on timeout in my garage sweating my tail off in McAllen.

01:26:26.000 And I've got my two phones.

01:26:27.000 I'm talking to the undercovers.

01:26:29.000 I'm talking to Tim Sylvia.

01:26:31.000 I'm telling them where to go.

01:26:33.000 They're being covered.

01:26:34.000 They go.

01:26:34.000 They meet.

01:26:35.000 While they're meeting Tim, the truck driver, I suppose playing my truck driver, calls me.

01:26:41.000 You can hear me clearly on the recording.

01:26:43.000 I'm talking on it.

01:26:44.000 And I tell him how much to pay Tim for the stolen vehicles.

01:26:48.000 And Tim was like, hey, I'm going to report the BMW stolen on Friday.

01:26:52.000 And I said, can you make it Saturday?

01:26:54.000 Give me 24 hours more to get this thing into Mexico.

01:26:56.000 And they did that.

01:26:58.000 And then when they went to load the vehicles, he hit them for an 18, a key for 10 keys.

01:27:05.000 And they said yes.

01:27:06.000 And they ended the case with them doing a ruse delivery of that dope.

01:27:12.000 And so you ask about the relationships.

01:27:14.000 So this is how it ends.

01:27:16.000 I'm in Nevada helping put on an undercover school. 0.99

01:27:20.000 That was one thing that Safeguard said I could go to because they also knew they could do many assessments, watch me, put me around other undercovers, make sure I'm not losing my shit.

01:27:29.000 And I can't remember the time difference to Massachusetts, but I've already been drawing up diagrams of all these houses and clubhouses I've been in, and I'm, you know, Sending those to all these SWAT teams all over the Northeast that are going to be hitting all these places.

01:27:45.000 And I got back to my hotel room, and I always kept my undercover—well, the case wasn't over technically yet anyway, but I always kept my undercover phones on for at least a month after a case went down, in case you got threatened or anything like that.

01:27:59.000 Well, I get back to my room, and my next tail's chirping.

01:28:02.000 And I check, and it's Scott Town.

01:28:04.000 He's left me a message.

01:28:05.000 So I chirp him up.

01:28:07.000 And he's all a raspy voice because he's been just woken up.

01:28:10.000 And he's like, hey, man, I just want you to know your truck driver, Tony, and the other guy, they were beating Big Timmy.

01:28:17.000 And I don't know what happened, but I think they all got locked up.

01:28:20.000 Well, he doesn't know that I'm an undercover.

01:28:22.000 He's telling me that that was the takedown day.

01:28:25.000 So he's calling me, and I'm like, oh, I said, you know what, brother, I appreciate that.

01:28:28.000 I said, I don't always control everything they do.

01:28:31.000 Sometimes they do side jobs on their own.

01:28:33.000 I said, they were not up there for me.

01:28:36.000 But I'll try to find out what's going on.

01:28:37.000 He said, let me tell you what I'm going to do.

01:28:39.000 He said, I'm going to get up, get cleaned up.

01:28:41.000 I'm going to find out what the hell's going on.

01:28:42.000 I'm going to call you back.

01:28:43.000 And I said, okay.

01:28:45.000 His last words to me were, I'm going to get chugged up.

01:28:48.000 His last words to me were, I love you, brother.

01:28:51.000 And I chirped back and I said, I love you too.

01:28:53.000 And he didn't know that a SWAT team was going to be hitting him in about 40 minutes.

01:28:56.000 Wow. That's the last time I talked to him.

01:28:59.000 He'll probably hear this.

01:29:01.000 I got a 50-50 shot.

01:29:03.000 If he walks up, I'll hug him. 1.00

01:29:04.000 He probably wants to beat the shit out of me. 0.99

01:29:07.000 Jesus. Man. 0.99

01:29:10.000 Is he out?

01:29:11.000 Yeah, he's out now.

01:29:12.000 How much time did he do?

01:29:13.000 I think he did like eight.

01:29:14.000 Eight or ten.

01:29:15.000 Somewhere in there.

01:29:17.000 Do you have this anxiety of running into those guys somewhere?

01:29:21.000 Yes and no.

01:29:22.000 It really comes with a job.

01:29:24.000 However, somebody pointed out a difference to me the other day.

01:29:28.000 I'm like, look, man, as a cop.

01:29:30.000 Or as an agent, you're locking people up and they're getting out.

01:29:35.000 You know, if you get threatened in Greenville County, if you're working for Greenville County Sheriff's Office, let's say we're here.

01:29:39.000 Was it Travis County?

01:29:40.000 If you get a threat, a legit threat in Travis County, do you think they've got the money in the budget or they would even spend money in their budget to move you to another town?

01:29:48.000 No. But in the FBI, we have that.

01:29:50.000 You hit the threat system, they move you somewhere, change a bunch of stuff.

01:29:54.000 So in law enforcement, There's always been, you can lock people up, you go to the grocery store, you're with your wife and kids, and you see them.

01:30:02.000 Everybody handles it their own way.

01:30:04.000 For me, my best defense is a good offense.

01:30:07.000 I'll just walk right up to you. 0.99

01:30:08.000 Hey man, holy shit, how are you doing? 0.98

01:30:12.000 I cannot believe, when did you get out? 0.98

01:30:14.000 Are you okay?

01:30:15.000 Hey, are you on the straight and narrow now?

01:30:18.000 Because I'm going to tell you, transparent, there's few things I love more than a success story.

01:30:24.000 Sadly, they're very rare in my 28-year career.

01:30:27.000 But to see somebody who broke the law, got out, turned themselves around, and are doing great, I love it.

01:30:36.000 You do see some of those.

01:30:37.000 Yeah. And I'll help them.

01:30:38.000 I'm helping one right now.

01:30:39.000 I told them, I said, look, if you're doing the right thing, they're like, well, I got a felon on my record.

01:30:43.000 I'm like, well, who better to be a reference for you on your application than the guy who gave you the felon?

01:30:49.000 If you're doing the right thing, I'll talk for you.

01:30:52.000 Wow. We all mess up.

01:30:53.000 I mean, shit, you know? 1.00

01:30:55.000 But that's got to be so complicated because you're the guy who got him arrested. 1.00

01:30:59.000 It is.

01:31:01.000 And I have had threats that were legit.

01:31:03.000 And I've had them at the sheriff's office where I was like, what do we do?

01:31:06.000 And my lieutenant's like, we're going to get some cops and we're going to knock on that dude's door.

01:31:10.000 Okay. And I've also been in the FBI where you could have gotten moved.

01:31:14.000 And I decided, no, I'm not.

01:31:16.000 Once that case gets taken down, I'm overt.

01:31:19.000 Like, a lot of people may not know it.

01:31:21.000 I'm not trying to insult intelligence.

01:31:22.000 But when you're arrested, I may be arrested with you.

01:31:25.000 I may not be.

01:31:26.000 There's all kinds of ways we can do a takedown.

01:31:27.000 But eventually, you're going to be sitting with your defense attorney.

01:31:30.000 And you're going to get discovery.

01:31:32.000 And discovery is supposed to be everything.

01:31:34.000 Now, there have been FBI people who did not turn over everything.

01:31:36.000 And it was very wrong.

01:31:38.000 And we are still paying the price for it.

01:31:39.000 But discovery is supposed to be everything.

01:31:42.000 And at that point, you're going to hear me on a preamble.

01:31:44.000 You're going to hear me go.

01:31:45.000 Let's see.

01:31:46.000 What's the day?

01:31:46.000 You're going to hear me go.

01:31:48.000 This is UCE, undercover employee.

01:31:49.000 This is UCE, one, two, whatever.

01:31:52.000 It's Wednesday, March 26th, Central Time, 2.45 p.m.

01:31:55.000 I'm about to walk in to meet Joe.

01:31:57.000 And they're going to hear that, and they're going to know that I'm the undercover.

01:32:00.000 They may not know my last name's Payne, but they're going to know.

01:32:03.000 Now, what somebody pointed out to me was, you know, as a cop, though, you're just doing your job and you're arresting them.

01:32:10.000 As an undercover, you've lied to them.

01:32:12.000 And I went, hmm, probably should have thought about that before I did the book. 1.00

01:32:17.000 Damn! But I try not to... 0.99

01:32:22.000 I don't want to live my life in fear.

01:32:25.000 I'm an optimist.

01:32:26.000 I'm a glasses always half full guy.

01:32:29.000 God, that's hard to believe given your circumstances.

01:32:32.000 I don't know how...

01:32:33.000 For me personally, I don't know how to survive otherwise.

01:32:35.000 Because if I was doom and gloom and the glasses always half empty...

01:32:39.000 Maybe this is a good time to interject this.

01:32:42.000 First responders, military.

01:32:44.000 I'm talking fire, medic, cop, military.

01:32:49.000 You know what we're number one in?

01:32:50.000 Suicide. Suicide. 0.72

01:32:52.000 You know what else we're number one in?

01:32:54.000 Divorce. Alcoholism.

01:32:56.000 Throw in pills or whatever you want there.

01:32:57.000 We're also number one in dying within five years after retiring.

01:33:02.000 Who signs up for that?

01:33:04.000 Right. You know?

01:33:05.000 Hell yeah. 0.81

01:33:06.000 First in hell.

01:33:07.000 Second in heaven.

01:33:09.000 No. No.

01:33:11.000 No. I'll pass.

01:33:13.000 But yeah, so that hurt.

01:33:15.000 I mean, it's very, it's surreal.

01:33:17.000 And yeah, great job. 0.73

01:33:19.000 But yeah, I mean, I'm human.

01:33:21.000 And I did really bond with that guy.

01:33:24.000 And just like I felt like a piece of trash when Clothesline told me that I was really, he considered me really his friend.

01:33:30.000 Wow. What's he doing now?

01:33:33.000 I don't know if he's out or not.

01:33:34.000 He was supposed to get, I think he got 12 and a half.

01:33:37.000 But I didn't keep up with it. 0.99

01:33:39.000 I mean, sometimes people go to jail, they pick up some more charges because they did something stupid in jail. 0.88

01:33:43.000 But I will tell you, talking on that success story thing, most of my career, with the exception of a pedophile, almost everybody I've arrested, I'll sit down with them and I'll say, listen, I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. 0.89

01:34:02.000 I'm not saying I disagree with what you did.

01:34:04.000 What I'm saying is you're an adult.

01:34:06.000 You made a choice to break the law and you got caught.

01:34:08.000 So let's just start right here.

01:34:09.000 This is all I got.

01:34:11.000 This is on the table.

01:34:12.000 Let's don't do that date and game BS where you lie to me for two months and I lie to you for two months and then we figure out we really do kind of like each other.

01:34:20.000 Now I can tell you the truth.

01:34:21.000 This is what I got.

01:34:22.000 And it's not dehumanizing and there's still people.

01:34:28.000 And I love connecting with people, like I said.

01:34:30.000 Wow. That's a great attitude.

01:34:32.000 Did you ever think, like, while you're talking to people like Scott Town, like, man, if my life had been different, I'd gone down the wrong roads, grew up in a different neighborhood, you would be one of them.

01:34:42.000 Absolutely. Yeah.

01:34:43.000 Absolutely. That's why we had so much in common.

01:34:45.000 Yeah, that's part of the problem with life.

01:34:47.000 Yeah. Everybody wants to pretend that that could never be me.

01:34:50.000 No, absolutely.

01:34:51.000 It could have easily been me.

01:34:52.000 And I'm like, I looked at it and I'm like, it's that proverbial fork in the road.

01:34:56.000 I went that way, but I could have easily went that way.

01:34:59.000 Yeah. That's why I got along with them so much.

01:35:02.000 You know?

01:35:04.000 Again, other than like pedophile stuff.

01:35:05.000 So what pedophile stuff did you have to do?

01:35:08.000 Actually, one of the quickest undercovers I ever did was the most satisfying.

01:35:13.000 And I actually did this one, I think, before the outlaws.

01:35:16.000 It was in San Antonio.

01:35:19.000 There was a guy that got picked up for molesting a kid.

01:35:23.000 And I didn't know the whole backstory.

01:35:25.000 But in the San Antonio division, the agents and stuff knew me, or the SWAT people, they knew I'm the undercover guy.

01:35:31.000 And they called me up because while he was in Bexar County in San Antonio, he approached somebody in jail, solicited them to kill the kid, or to find somebody that could kill the kid. 0.98

01:35:43.000 A lot of these murder-for-hire plans are stupid, but that actually wasn't too bad of a plan. 0.99

01:35:47.000 Like, if the kids... 1.00

01:35:49.000 These cases are tough. 1.00

01:35:50.000 They suck. 1.00

01:35:51.000 They're atrocious. 1.00

01:35:53.000 I mean, it's a waste of oxygen, in my personal opinion.

01:35:56.000 But it's usually a kid from a broken home.

01:35:59.000 It's after the fact.

01:36:00.000 It's an adult versus a kid.

01:36:03.000 But he knew he wasn't going to do well in prison.

01:36:06.000 So he approached somebody in prison who then, as most people who are serving time do, they are trying to get credit to get out.

01:36:15.000 And that person called his attorney, and that attorney called the FBI, and they worked it out to where he intro'd me.

01:36:20.000 So I drive up to Bexar County.

01:36:23.000 I sign in because he put me on the list.

01:36:26.000 I go in, and I'm in the phone bank.

01:36:32.000 It's all stainless steel.

01:36:34.000 You can't hear nothing but baby mamas, and everybody's screaming and cussing and pissed off.

01:36:38.000 And here I am trying to get this recording through this glass, and I'm talking to the guy.

01:36:44.000 I said, you know who I am?

01:36:45.000 He's like, yeah.

01:36:46.000 I said, well, I hope you do because you put me on your list to come see you.

01:36:49.000 You know what I do?

01:36:50.000 And he's like, yes.

01:36:50.000 I was like slow rolling.

01:36:52.000 I didn't know.

01:36:52.000 I didn't want to scare him off.

01:36:53.000 So I was like, you know, I'm in the extermination business. 0.84

01:36:56.000 And he's like, yeah.

01:36:57.000 I said, I kill pests for a living. 0.83

01:36:59.000 He said, yep.

01:37:00.000 That's exactly what I wanted.

01:37:01.000 And I had a picture of the kid.

01:37:05.000 Of course, we're working with a family on this.

01:37:06.000 But I had a picture of the kid just walking like a surveillance photo.

01:37:09.000 And I put it up on the window and I said, is this the pest?

01:37:13.000 That you want taken care of.

01:37:15.000 Something to that effect.

01:37:16.000 And clearly on the recording, thank you, Lord, it picked it up.

01:37:19.000 He said, that's him.

01:37:20.000 So you're not going to call a bug a him, right?

01:37:23.000 So what I found out is I met him twice.

01:37:29.000 Just a two-meet thing.

01:37:30.000 But what I found out from the solicitor's office in Bexar County, it was mostly women working it because the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit.

01:37:42.000 And Joe, when I went walking in there and they're like, this is Scott.

01:37:45.000 I mean, they all stood up.

01:37:46.000 It's like some TV show.

01:37:47.000 They stood up and they started clapping.

01:37:48.000 I'm like, I don't understand.

01:37:50.000 And this isn't me chest beating.

01:37:51.000 That's not what I'm trying.

01:37:52.000 But it's like, what is going on?

01:37:53.000 They're like, thank you so much.

01:37:54.000 You're so...

01:37:55.000 And I'm like, I appreciate it, but I'm doing my job.

01:37:59.000 What they told me is that guy had walked on four molestation cases before.

01:38:05.000 And he also walked on some possession of...

01:38:10.000 Somehow he got out of possession of child pornography stuff.

01:38:15.000 But when he found out, when they approached him and said I was an undercover and that they got him, he pled guilty to hiring me to kill the kid and pled guilty to the molestation of the kid.

01:38:25.000 Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first time, he threw me off guard.

01:38:28.000 Because he was like, yeah, yeah.

01:38:30.000 And I go, all right, well, what do you got? 1.00

01:38:32.000 And he goes, hey, I'd like you to kill the rest of his family, too. 1.00

01:38:35.000 They're in Wisconsin. 0.99

01:38:36.000 And I actually giggled a little bit because it threw me off.

01:38:38.000 I went, well.

01:38:40.000 I'm not above traveling, but let's deal with one pest at a time.

01:38:43.000 I'm thinking in my head, man, go, man.

01:38:46.000 But he knew, as most pedophiles do, you're not going to do well in prison. 0.99

01:38:51.000 So his idea was kill the kid, kill the family, and then there's no evidence? 0.99

01:38:55.000 Yeah, he just gets to walk. 0.99

01:38:57.000 Because there's no witness to show up to trial.

01:38:59.000 Jesus Christ.

01:39:00.000 Right? Yeah.

01:39:03.000 And then being around that stuff, like I've had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent, they come in, they assign you as the training agent, and they might be working that stuff.

01:39:12.000 And I will tell you, for me personally, that's tough to work for me.

01:39:19.000 It was before I even had girls, before I even had kids.

01:39:22.000 I remember seeing like five images.

01:39:24.000 We hit a guy.

01:39:25.000 He was actually a professor.

01:39:27.000 At University of Texas, Pan Am.

01:39:29.000 And he was so vigilant.

01:39:31.000 I mean, he had like, he had all the child porn videos broken down by ethnicity, age, sex.

01:39:39.000 Oh, Jesus Christ. 0.95

01:39:40.000 I mean, you could say, I want Asian male 11. And he would have, I mean. 0.98

01:39:44.000 Oh, my God.

01:39:44.000 And it was just sick.

01:39:45.000 Now, did he come from a messed up thing?

01:39:47.000 Yeah. Turns out, his mother had molested him and his brother.

01:39:51.000 We'd tie them in the basement, tie them to each other, make them have sex with each other. 1.00

01:39:54.000 Oh, my God. 1.00

01:39:55.000 But it's horrific.

01:39:56.000 But break the chain, man.

01:39:58.000 Break the chain.

01:40:00.000 So yeah, I saw like five photos and I was messed up for probably a week or two.

01:40:04.000 A professor?

01:40:05.000 Yeah, my wife would try to touch me. 1.00

01:40:08.000 Not even just to be in, I mean, just to touch.

01:40:10.000 And I'd be like, uh-uh.

01:40:11.000 No. I'm like, I can't, man.

01:40:13.000 I gotta get this shit out of my head. 0.99

01:40:15.000 Now, later on in undercovers, I could be the guy to drive and pick you up. 0.99

01:40:19.000 I could show you pictures.

01:40:20.000 Is this what you want kind of thing?

01:40:21.000 But to like sit there and look through that stuff.

01:40:24.000 My brain's not cut out for that.

01:40:26.000 But there are those who are, and in the FBI, if you're looking at that, you have to be psychologically assessed as well, as you should.

01:40:34.000 I can only imagine.

01:40:35.000 How are these guys getting these videos?

01:40:38.000 Are they making them?

01:40:40.000 Joe, it is.

01:40:41.000 See, that's the thing, right?

01:40:42.000 It is so huge.

01:40:44.000 It is so freaking huge.

01:40:46.000 That's the scary thing, because most people aren't aware of it, and this is one of the big conspiracy theories that there's these pedophile rings out there, but they're real.

01:40:53.000 Yeah. Yeah, human trafficking.

01:40:55.000 Now, I can sway on some of the human trafficking stuff because I've seen human trafficking from the border all the way to the hotel room.

01:41:03.000 If it's...

01:41:04.000 It's rarely a hooker ever on free will or an escort of on free will.

01:41:08.000 But if they're out there doing it, I don't know.

01:41:10.000 It gets a little muddy on some of the trafficking stuff for me personally, but it's still trafficking.

01:41:14.000 They got brought in when they were underage.

01:41:17.000 Now they're a product of what they've been forced to do. 0.85

01:41:19.000 It's very sad, but as far as the child porn stuff goes, it's insane.

01:41:24.000 I've worked with some, they call them ICACs, Crimes Against Children.

01:41:31.000 And there's so much out there, but there was so much at once.

01:41:37.000 This is just me and Tennessee.

01:41:39.000 I'm with them.

01:41:40.000 They have so many hits on whatever dark web thing it is.

01:41:43.000 It might be Discord.

01:41:44.000 I'm trying to think of what it used to be.

01:41:46.000 But there's all kinds of stuff like that, that they'll go to these, what they believe are encrypted apps that are based.

01:41:56.000 Overseas. So they don't think that the FBI or feds here, the alphabet boys and girls, can do subpoenas and get that stuff.

01:42:04.000 That's why they use those. 0.79

01:42:05.000 Now, does that mean that everybody on Discord's bad?

01:42:07.000 Absolutely not.

01:42:08.000 Telegram, no.

01:42:09.000 But do people go there to do bad things?

01:42:11.000 Yep. And it's just like, you could go, I remember them showing me stuff, as the undercover coordinator, I'm over there and I'm looking at stuff, and they're showing me what all the hits they've got right now.

01:42:21.000 Just people hitting, and through the databases, you could do knock and talks every freaking day, all day long.

01:42:28.000 Hey man, how you doing?

01:42:29.000 Hey, if we look at your computer, you might not get in there, but yeah, it's a mess.

01:42:35.000 A mess.

01:42:36.000 And so there's a whole ring of people all across the country.

01:42:40.000 Yeah, or just mom and pops.

01:42:42.000 Farming out their kids.

01:42:44.000 Oh, my God.

01:42:44.000 Yeah. Sex across state lines.

01:42:48.000 Oh. Yeah. 0.57

01:42:49.000 Not good at all.

01:42:52.000 There's just, like, again, I'll mention McAllen several times.

01:42:57.000 This isn't undercover stuff, but case agent stuff.

01:42:59.000 I mean, I might look at doing a book on case agent stuff.

01:43:03.000 I was down there working the cartel with me and the people I worked with.

01:43:07.000 That was back when OZR Cardenas.

01:43:10.000 Ran the Gulf Cartel. 0.68

01:43:11.000 So it was violent.

01:43:13.000 Violent as you know what.

01:43:14.000 But there was some kind of SOP.

01:43:16.000 There was like a procedure.

01:43:17.000 But I mean...

01:43:19.000 When I try to tell people, I'm like, look, I don't care whether you're left or right.

01:43:22.000 I meet all kinds of people. 1.00

01:43:24.000 If you're extreme left, I'm probably going to tell you you're an idiot. 1.00

01:43:27.000 If you're extreme right, I know you're an idiot because I've been with them. 1.00

01:43:32.000 I'm like, I just want to bring it. 1.00

01:43:34.000 What's so funny is you start here and you go far left and they're like, I'm a socialist.

01:43:38.000 I'm a socialist.

01:43:39.000 I want everything for free.

01:43:40.000 And you start here on the far right and they're like, I want Hitler. 0.78

01:43:43.000 I want Hitler. 1.00

01:43:43.000 But that's socialism. 1.00

01:43:44.000 You get here, it's the same shit. 1.00

01:43:46.000 They just want stuff for free. 1.00

01:43:47.000 I want all whites. 0.84

01:43:49.000 Well, that'll fix everything.

01:43:50.000 You know?

01:43:51.000 It's just, it's insane.

01:43:53.000 But down on the border, you tell people, you're like, man, they just, I'm not saying that, I'm not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico and stuff, but a lot of it runs on corruption.

01:44:02.000 A lot of it runs on money.

01:44:04.000 And they do not value life like we do.

01:44:07.000 I mean, man, they chop heads off. 0.82

01:44:09.000 It's Al-Qaeda stuff. 0.92

01:44:10.000 I mean, they're sawing heads off.

01:44:12.000 You find a van full of eight heads.

01:44:16.000 We weren't kidnappers and extortions down there all the time back then.

01:44:20.000 One of the cases, OZL, we thought it was a wives' tale. 0.94

01:44:24.000 And this is sick, so I apologize to people that think this is way gross, but it's real.

01:44:31.000 The first one isn't that gross.

01:44:33.000 He had a line he would feed people to.

01:44:35.000 A lion.

01:44:36.000 A lion.

01:44:36.000 And that was the rumor.

01:44:37.000 And then I can't remember if they went up in a fixed wing or a helicopter, but they flew over the line.

01:44:43.000 And somebody was asking the other one, hey, what are all those bones?

01:44:45.000 And they were like, ayo pollo.

01:44:47.000 You know, chicken. 0.51

01:44:48.000 That's a big-ass chicken. 1.00

01:44:51.000 That chicken looks like a femur. 0.77

01:44:53.000 You know?

01:44:53.000 So there's that.

01:44:54.000 But the one that was really sick is, so when they would kidnap you, like if you lost a load or they thought you stole something or you didn't pay your quotas, because even as an undocumented special interest alien, whatever you want to call it, illegal alien smuggler, you had to pay quotas to the cartel to smuggle through their territory.

01:45:13.000 Same thing with Dope. 0.92

01:45:14.000 If you got behind on that, they'd kidnap you.

01:45:16.000 Same M.O. Three Suburbans pull up somewhere in South Texas, jump out on such and such corner.

01:45:22.000 Everybody's in black BDUs.

01:45:24.000 They grab you.

01:45:24.000 That was the safest.

01:45:25.000 They were the enforcement cartel.

01:45:26.000 They'd take you over, beat you, start calling the family saying, we want $100,000, $300,000, whatever.

01:45:32.000 We'd start brokering the deal because we have border liaison officers and we would do cross trainings with military and police in Mexico.

01:45:40.000 So the board of liaison officer calls and goes, hey, it's such and such time of day on this corner.

01:45:45.000 Three Suburbans pulled up.

01:45:46.000 The guy's name is this.

01:45:47.000 It was this time of day. 0.97

01:45:48.000 30 minutes to an hour later, we get a call back.

01:45:51.000 They got him.

01:45:51.000 What's the deal?

01:45:53.000 He brought a load back and it was missing $100,000.

01:45:56.000 Okay, so now I'm in the house with the family going, okay, they want $300,000.

01:46:01.000 Well, we don't have it.

01:46:03.000 Well, they don't have it.

01:46:05.000 They want $100,000.

01:46:06.000 We don't have it.

01:46:07.000 Well, what do you got?

01:46:08.000 We got $60,000.

01:46:09.000 What else they got?

01:46:10.000 Remember my V8?

01:46:11.000 4x4? They got a Suburban. 0.63

01:46:14.000 How many miles are on it?

01:46:15.000 And here we are at midnight, rolling the Suburban over the bridge with $60,000 to get the sun back.

01:46:21.000 Wow. So one of the, we thought was a wives' tale, is that OZL had a, I don't know what the politically correct term is these days, but a midget. 1.00

01:46:30.000 A small person.

01:46:31.000 I don't know. 0.98

01:46:32.000 But the rumor was back then that he had a midget who was very well endowed and he would rape people for the cartel. 1.00

01:46:41.000 You just let that soak in for a little bit. 0.98

01:46:44.000 Jesus. My comedy starts coming out.

01:46:47.000 I'm like, how do you get this small person?

01:46:49.000 I don't know.

01:46:50.000 That's his thing.

01:46:52.000 So we all thought it was BS.

01:46:55.000 And then there was a Christmas Eve.

01:46:58.000 We started getting calls.

01:47:00.000 I was actually driving to Arizona for a vacation, but I was on the phone calling sources and calling all the other agents.

01:47:09.000 This guy had basically carjacked a car in Rio Grande City.

01:47:15.000 So directly across the river is Camargo.

01:47:17.000 So he gets in there.

01:47:18.000 He didn't look in the backseat.

01:47:20.000 There's an infant.

01:47:21.000 Now the cartel's pissed at him for bringing heat, and they are beating him.

01:47:24.000 I mean, they used to hit him with the clubs, throw kilos, bricks at him, cigarette burns, cigar burns real big, battery cables, stuff like that, threatening him.

01:47:37.000 And we got him back. 0.98

01:47:39.000 But when he came across the bridge, my peers called me and go, holy shit, Scott, it's real. 0.98

01:47:44.000 I go, what are you talking about? 0.99

01:47:45.000 This dude is bawling.

01:47:47.000 When? The call came in and the cartel was like, okay, let this one go.

01:47:51.000 The midget was in the room. 1.00

01:47:53.000 That guy was crying when he came back across the bridge. 1.00

01:47:55.000 He was getting ready to get raped. 1.00

01:47:58.000 Wow. Slightly sick, right? 1.00

01:48:00.000 Yeah, slightly.

01:48:02.000 It's a different world.

01:48:03.000 Yeah, that's probably the least bad thing they can do to you.

01:48:08.000 I don't know.

01:48:10.000 I don't know how to look in the mirror after all that.

01:48:12.000 I don't know.

01:48:13.000 I mean, you get out alive, I guess.

01:48:15.000 It's insane.

01:48:16.000 Or do you?

01:48:18.000 So, other than the pedophile cases, what were the most shocking cases that you had to do?

01:48:25.000 Hmm. Well, they're all a little shocking in their own way.

01:48:30.000 The pedophile one's got to be the hardest one to sleep at night. 0.88

01:48:33.000 Yeah. Just to know. 0.98

01:48:35.000 But what a good feeling to get him.

01:48:36.000 Right. That's a different feeling.

01:48:38.000 That's a non-conflicted feeling when you get him.

01:48:40.000 Good. Yeah, when she called me, when the assistant solicitor called me and said, hey, he pled guilty.

01:48:45.000 He got 20 for, I can't remember which was for which, but he got 20 years for, I believe, the most molestation in 10 for hiring me to kill him.

01:48:54.000 And then they had to do, the state of Texas was 85%.

01:48:57.000 So, yeah, it was going to be a tough ride for him.

01:49:01.000 Pardon the pun.

01:49:03.000 Yeah. But, yeah, so crazy stuff, man, I mean, some of that neo-Nazi stuff was just insane.

01:49:09.000 How'd you get involved in that?

01:49:10.000 Well, number one, I go where my skill set takes me.

01:49:15.000 Number two, we kind of go to what the shift is in the FBI.

01:49:19.000 Were people doing a lot of biker club stuff anymore?

01:49:21.000 Not at that time.

01:49:23.000 I was a criminal investigator for pretty much my entire career.

01:49:29.000 But towards the end, in Tennessee, I switched over to the Joint Charism Task Force.

01:49:36.000 And I really did it because I was having some disagreements.

01:49:41.000 Be likely.

01:49:42.000 But I was having disagreements with management.

01:49:43.000 And my M.O. had always been, even though I'd burned myself out before, once I got to Tennessee, I set up accountability buddies.

01:49:51.000 I set up tripwires and stopped saying yes to everything and made ways to relax and balance and get myself back.

01:50:03.000 But towards the end, I switched over to Joint Chairman Task Force because Again, my MO was try to be above average on your squad.

01:50:13.000 And then if you're kicking butt on stats and stuff like that, then maybe they won't say no to let me go do the undercover.

01:50:21.000 Maybe they won't say no to let me go help put on this SWAT school or this SWAT call-out.

01:50:26.000 And that was what I did.

01:50:29.000 But that wasn't working for me in Tennessee.

01:50:32.000 Anymore. And I went to the head of the division and requested to be moved.

01:50:37.000 So I went to Joint Charism Task Force.

01:50:40.000 And my skill set kind of led right into that domestic terrorism stuff.

01:50:44.000 Like in the state of Tennessee, you have Aryan Nations, which was the Tennessee Department of Corrections. 1.00

01:50:53.000 TDOC... Prison gang.

01:50:55.000 But it's white supremacy.

01:50:56.000 So as a case agent, I started working that stuff.

01:50:59.000 And then I just started getting more exposed to those kind of cases.

01:51:02.000 So now when the canvases start coming up, or we're running an undercover op ourselves, those cases are coming in.

01:51:09.000 And it's like, okay, I'll do that one.

01:51:11.000 Unless anybody's got a disagreement, you know.

01:51:13.000 And that's what I started doing.

01:51:15.000 That's how we kind of got into those.

01:51:16.000 Because we started getting more threats, you know, after the Charlottesville stuff.

01:51:20.000 Now it's really getting kind of on the radar.

01:51:22.000 They're like, man, this is, maybe we should be putting more resources.

01:51:28.000 Maybe we should be putting, the FBI is saying, maybe we should be putting more resources to this domestic terrorism threat.

01:51:33.000 And that's what I started getting.

01:51:34.000 I mean, I would go into, I kind of mentioned it earlier, but a neo-Nazi group, but it's mainly online.

01:51:44.000 And here I am for five months reading post after post.

01:51:47.000 And if I woke up after six hours of sleep and I was 1,500 posts behind, I'd rewind it and read them all for five months because I didn't want to miss anything, me personally.

01:51:56.000 I didn't want to miss anything or anything bad happened because I missed something.

01:52:00.000 But after five months and maybe meeting them once or twice, it's all First Amendment protected.

01:52:06.000 They weren't doing anything to prepare.

01:52:10.000 To cause violence.

01:52:12.000 They're just preparing for the day.

01:52:14.000 And then when the day happens, then they'll be ready.

01:52:17.000 But again, I talk to people overseas, Canada, whatever.

01:52:22.000 I have to explain.

01:52:22.000 I'm like, look, in the United States, we have a constitution.

01:52:25.000 And your First Amendment is freedom of speech.

01:52:28.000 I said, you can walk out in the street right here and say, I hate every, say a racial slur. 0.97

01:52:33.000 I hope every racial slur dies. 0.94

01:52:35.000 That's not illegal.

01:52:37.000 As you know, you've seen it.

01:52:39.000 You can burn American flags.

01:52:41.000 Freedom of speech.

01:52:42.000 Try that in China.

01:52:44.000 Let me know how that works for you. 1.00

01:52:45.000 Death to China. 1.00

01:52:47.000 Light the flag on fire. 0.99

01:52:48.000 I'm not sure how long you'll last, right?

01:52:49.000 Not long.

01:52:50.000 But that's what we...

01:52:53.000 That's the hard thing about working domestic terrorism is there's no federal domestic terrorism statute.

01:53:00.000 So you're trying to see what crimes are they committing, if any, and what can we do to get them off the street if they're planning bad things.

01:53:07.000 So how did you infiltrate the neo-Nazi organization?

01:53:11.000 Did you actually meet with them in person or was it mostly online?

01:53:18.000 I'll just jump to the base.

01:53:20.000 Okay. Because the base was the one that's kind of the beginning and the end of the book.

01:53:25.000 They were actively recruiting.

01:53:27.000 I mean, I was in the Klan, too, for a little while for the job.

01:53:31.000 I've got to be careful what I say, right?

01:53:32.000 People clip that out.

01:53:34.000 Back when I was in the Klan, we were good old boys.

01:53:39.000 But they were recruiting openly online.

01:53:43.000 The base was.

01:53:45.000 And the base is an accelerationist group.

01:53:47.000 And that's what I, again, great detail in the book, in the podcast.

01:53:52.000 But the thing is, is most people here, white supremacy, they think hoods and robes and crosses on fire, right?

01:54:01.000 That's not this, man.

01:54:02.000 These are, these are, this is why they're called accelerationists.

01:54:06.000 There's a book out there called Siege.

01:54:08.000 Written by James Mason.

01:54:10.000 Longtime white supremacist.

01:54:11.000 It's a weird book.

01:54:12.000 It's basically articles and interviews all just shoved together.

01:54:15.000 But this guy kind of idolized and interviewed people like Charles Manson.

01:54:20.000 You know, what a great role model.

01:54:24.000 I mean, if you're looking.

01:54:26.000 But he created a group called Atomwaffen.

01:54:31.000 And this is what accelerationism is.

01:54:33.000 Because when I go to infiltrate the base, I'm just answering stuff they're putting out there.

01:54:37.000 Emails. They're posting on Gab.

01:54:41.000 Save your race. 0.93

01:54:42.000 Join the base.

01:54:43.000 We're a survivalist group.

01:54:44.000 Email us at thebase1 at protonmail.com.

01:54:48.000 So I start answering that stuff.

01:54:51.000 After about a week or so of emails back and forth asking me everything, my ethnicity, my height, weight, when was my red pill moment, which they kind of use the matrix theme there.

01:55:01.000 So if they say, when were you red-pilled?

01:55:03.000 As a Christ follower, it's the same thing as when I was baptized or when I got saved, right?

01:55:08.000 So if you're an accelerationist or that level of neo-Nazi and they say, what was your red pill moment?

01:55:13.000 You need to know it because it's kind of like the big deal.

01:55:15.000 That's when you said, hate all other people.

01:55:20.000 So after about a week or so of emails, I get on.

01:55:24.000 They tell me to download the Wire app, similar to WhatsApp.

01:55:27.000 You can call and talk on it and stuff like that.

01:55:31.000 Create groups all over it.

01:55:32.000 So I do like about an hour and 15 minute interview panel of like four or five people asking me all kinds of stuff.

01:55:40.000 I answered best I could, best I prepared for.

01:55:43.000 And then they gave me a 24 hour rest period.

01:55:45.000 So they said, now that you know what we are, we're going to give you 24 hours to think about if you want to be a part of us.

01:55:51.000 And we want 24 hours to think about it.

01:55:53.000 But this is what they told me accelerationism was.

01:55:56.000 They said, accelerationist, they call it siege culture.

01:56:01.000 Kind of barlaying off the book, but they do not believe there's a political solution to save the white race.

01:56:07.000 They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or for man-made events, and they want to speed that up.

01:56:13.000 The group I was in was calling that Boogaloo, the Boogaloo.

01:56:17.000 And everything always ends with an ethno state.

01:56:19.000 Now, it's not saying the groups that I was in, they weren't going to take over the entire United States, but the group I was in...

01:56:26.000 One section was looking at property and land in the Appalachian Mountains.

01:56:29.000 One section of the base was looking at the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

01:56:33.000 One section of the base had property in the Pacific Northwest.

01:56:37.000 So you get in there, you start learning that ideology.

01:56:43.000 But again, in the beginning, I'm just ingratiating.

01:56:46.000 I mean, we know they've been saying crazy stuff online, but is it illegal per se?

01:56:50.000 No. But are they planning on taking steps to do some bad things?

01:56:54.000 And that goes back to that domestic terrorism culture.

01:56:57.000 You go in, telegram or whatever, and you've got your Terrence and your Brevix, and they're in there, 4chan, 8chan, and they're posting right before they go and commit all the murders.

01:57:08.000 You know, here I am.

01:57:09.000 I'm going live.

01:57:10.000 Watch this.

01:57:12.000 But imagine being in law enforcement and trying to look at all these thousands of posts and trying to figure out, well, which one's actually going to follow through?

01:57:21.000 Which one is seriously...

01:57:23.000 Planning on doing something.

01:57:24.000 So you always got to stay vigilant and keep going after it.

01:57:27.000 So what were these guys planning on doing?

01:57:30.000 What was their accelerate moment?

01:57:33.000 Well, per the siege culture, they like to do guerrilla warfare tactics.

01:57:40.000 So they're against the Charlottesville stuff.

01:57:43.000 Being in a group...

01:57:45.000 Picket signs, screaming racial slurs, you know, all this stuff.

01:57:48.000 They're against that. 1.00

01:57:48.000 They're like, that's stupid. 1.00

01:57:49.000 You're number one, you're making yourself a target. 1.00

01:57:50.000 You're not doing anything.

01:57:52.000 It's more guerrilla warfare tactics where, let's say over here in Austin, power grid goes down.

01:57:57.000 Over here, train gets derailed.

01:58:00.000 Over here, water systems poisoned.

01:58:02.000 Anything to create chaos and killing of anybody left. 0.99

01:58:07.000 Anti-fash, non-whites, very anti-Semitic. 0.99

01:58:12.000 Very. Like, way more than... 0.98

01:58:15.000 It kind of opened my eyes when I started getting into some of these neo-Nazis, because for the most part, I thought...

01:58:21.000 When I thought racism, I thought white against black, right? 0.75

01:58:25.000 But these neo-Nazis groups I was in, man, they are anti-Semitic, man. 0.99

01:58:30.000 They cannot stand Jews. 1.00

01:58:31.000 Wow. It's like... 0.98

01:58:33.000 Like, it's sickening if you listen to it.

01:58:36.000 But again, they want that Hitler. 0.96

01:58:37.000 They want Hitler back. 0.91

01:58:39.000 I mean, some of these guys were, like, talking about...

01:58:42.000 Concave Earth, Hollow Earth, Hitler's still alive. 0.94

01:58:45.000 He's in Hollow Earth.

01:58:47.000 He's with giant white men who are Anglo, white with red hair and 15 plus foot tall.

01:58:54.000 And I'm like, and I go, so where are these 15 foot tall white guys?

01:59:00.000 And they're like, well, they're in Middle Earth with Hitler. 0.92

01:59:02.000 They're waiting.

01:59:03.000 And I go, for what?

01:59:04.000 NBA contracts.

01:59:06.000 Come on, let's do this.

01:59:07.000 Let's take this thing down.

01:59:09.000 And sometimes I'm just comical with them.

01:59:10.000 You're like, hey, we're neo-Nazis.

01:59:12.000 Yeah, we're going to get to ethnostate.

01:59:13.000 Yeah, we're ready for the boogaloo.

01:59:15.000 Yeah, we're building our kit.

01:59:16.000 Yeah, who's going to be Hitler?

01:59:18.000 And everybody goes, oh, there's only one, buddy.

01:59:24.000 Are we going to fight it out right now?

01:59:25.000 Who's going to win this thing?

01:59:26.000 But what happened with the base is a lot of them were into the pagan.

01:59:32.000 And I say this loosely.

01:59:33.000 I have plenty of friends that are, Pagan.

01:59:38.000 Satru, and they are great people.

01:59:43.000 Love them.

01:59:43.000 What do you mean by pagan?

01:59:46.000 So there's different pantheons, but the most common one is Norse mythology.

01:59:54.000 Basically the, you know, it's basically the Marvel universe.

01:59:57.000 So they worship ancient Viking culture?

02:00:01.000 Yeah, Odin, Thor, whatever.

02:00:03.000 Really? Yeah, oh yeah, man.

02:00:05.000 Wait, there's a church for that?

02:00:06.000 Well, I don't want to say a church per se, but yeah, the whole blot is, just think Viking kind of stuff.

02:00:13.000 The ones that do it that are serious.

02:00:16.000 They're upset that white supremacists have taken their stuff and used it.

02:00:19.000 But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that Norse mythology, too. 0.55

02:00:23.000 He had looking for Thor's hammer or whatever, the Holy Grail, biblical, and all this stuff.

02:00:30.000 But there's Christian identity, which is making a comeback in the white supremacy realm, not to be confused with Christianity.

02:00:38.000 Christian identity is, if you can wrap your mind around this... 0.69

02:00:42.000 A lot of them have a dual seed line belief.

02:00:46.000 So they take the story of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the forbidden tree. 0.82

02:00:53.000 They take that story and they say, okay, it's still the same except the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent who is a man of color, also known as Satan.

02:01:05.000 And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, their offspring is Cain. 0.85

02:01:10.000 And they are the mud race from then on. 1.00

02:01:12.000 That's what they call them.

02:01:13.000 Mud race. 0.94

02:01:13.000 Non-white. 0.94

02:01:14.000 Mud race from then on down.

02:01:15.000 But the procreation from Adam and Eve is able.

02:01:19.000 And that's the pure white race. 0.98

02:01:20.000 That's just one of the many belief systems.

02:01:22.000 So when you see...

02:01:24.000 I know, right? 1.00

02:01:25.000 Yeah, I'm like shaking my head like, what the fuck? 1.00

02:01:28.000 How did you get that? 0.98

02:01:31.000 What are they using as like references?

02:01:33.000 Like how do they get this information?

02:01:35.000 So as far back as...

02:01:37.000 That I know.

02:01:38.000 I'm sure it came out earlier, but there was the Aryan Nation, Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fair, and all that stuff, and they taught that.

02:01:45.000 They taught the Christian identity.

02:01:46.000 Church of Jesus Christ Christian.

02:01:49.000 And they take that and twist it, you know, as if Jesus is just a white guy.

02:01:53.000 And so did you physically meet with these guys and infiltrate their organization?

02:01:59.000 Yeah, some of those, yes.

02:02:01.000 And the Christian identity was kind of in the Klan belief that I was in for a short moment.

02:02:07.000 But the pagan, just like I said that the Christian identity takes the Bible and twists it, then the paganism is taking Norse mythology or if you're an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, and they're twisting it toward their white supremacy. 0.72

02:02:22.000 And that's not what paganism really is.

02:02:25.000 If you know, like again, I've got friends that do it.

02:02:28.000 They're upset with white supremacists. 0.90

02:02:31.000 Using their stuff.

02:02:32.000 But then again, in the base, there was a guy who was an Isatri priest, and he led the first blot I ever attended, BLOT, which is kind of like the worship ceremony for pagans.

02:02:43.000 I mean, we're down there with our shirts off, wiping blood on our chest, drinking mead, as if we're Vikings, and then praying to our gods.

02:02:51.000 And they would take wood, carve the wood, and they would carve runes and white supremacy symbols in it, and we would cut ourselves and bleed.

02:03:00.000 On the runes and then set that on fire and pray until the fire went out.

02:03:06.000 Whoa. Yeah.

02:03:07.000 How many of these guys are out there in the world?

02:03:10.000 I don't know.

02:03:11.000 I mean, there's academia and stuff. 0.70

02:03:14.000 They're like, there's millions of white supremacists and Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow. 0.67

02:03:18.000 I'm not going to say that. 0.83

02:03:19.000 Well, they want to call everything white supremacy, which is a real problem because there's actual white supremacy out there.

02:03:24.000 Yeah. And when you call everything white supremacist...

02:03:27.000 Just somebody disagreeing or having a different belief system? 1.00

02:03:29.000 Watching a video of a fucking crazy professor who was saying that marriage is white supremacist. 1.00

02:03:35.000 It's the craziest video of all time. 1.00

02:03:37.000 This is an undercover video where they interviewed this lady and they were asking her questions and she didn't know she was being recorded.

02:03:44.000 She was a professor.

02:03:45.000 Yeah. Marriage is thin privilege. 1.00

02:03:48.000 It's white supremacy.

02:03:50.000 It's male privilege, which leads to white supremacy and white privilege. 0.98

02:03:55.000 Just a bunch of gobbledygook nonsense words that she was attaching to just people getting married. 0.95

02:04:01.000 Clearly she's not a Christ follower.

02:04:03.000 If you follow the Bible, it lays out what marriage is.

02:04:06.000 She's definitely not. 0.98

02:04:07.000 She's a kook. 1.00

02:04:08.000 The problem is calling everything white supremacy. 0.97

02:04:13.000 It obscures the fact that there's really people like the people that you're running into.

02:04:18.000 They're real.

02:04:19.000 It's just like, how many of them and where are they?

02:04:25.000 Thousands? Hundreds of thousands?

02:04:26.000 Yeah, I'd say.

02:04:27.000 I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but I'd say thousands.

02:04:29.000 Because a lot of times, if you're in that community and you're looking, let's say this is a telegram channel over here, and it's Terror Wave or whatever it is before it was taken down, and you see all these monikers, like I was Pell Horse in the base.

02:04:42.000 I was Pell Horse.

02:04:43.000 That was my moniker.

02:04:44.000 And then you see Pestilence, and you see TMB, the Militant Buddhist, and you see Helter Skelter, and you say, well, you might go to another group.

02:04:52.000 Maybe they've changed their moniker.

02:04:54.000 But you start realizing, hey, did you used to be pestilence in the other channel?

02:04:58.000 Yeah, that's me.

02:04:58.000 You know what I mean?

02:05:00.000 But what's scary is, like in that base case, as I said before, I'm a tactical instructor, firearms instructor.

02:05:10.000 I'm an alert instructor, which is right near where we're at right now in San Marcos, Texas.

02:05:18.000 But you can't go undercover and help these guys.

02:05:23.000 Train or help them get better because they might be doing bad things.

02:05:28.000 So I go in, I had my whole backstory, former skinhead, former biker, and my skill set was like hand-to-hand combat.

02:05:37.000 Could I shoot?

02:05:38.000 Yeah, but I let them lead me.

02:05:39.000 We went out there, and the first time we did tactical and firearms training, it was led by a 19-year-old kid, and it was good.

02:05:48.000 It was good.

02:05:49.000 And he's not military.

02:05:50.000 And I'm like, I'm watching, I'm like, where the hell did you learn this?

02:05:53.000 So a lot of stuff happens on gaming systems because they're so realistic now.

02:05:57.000 Wow. Yeah.

02:05:58.000 I mean, these kids, you can go on and if you got your mic on, you might get your butt handed to you by an 11-year-old kid who's telling you to clear the hard corner and slice the pie.

02:06:07.000 They're using the same verbiage. 0.99

02:06:08.000 And I'm like, holy crap. 0.80

02:06:10.000 You know, virtual world meets real world. 0.52

02:06:12.000 Only problem is, in the virtual world, you get to respawn.

02:06:17.000 Not so much in the real world, you know.

02:06:19.000 I'm going to respawn now.

02:06:21.000 But, yeah, he led it, and they were shooting fast and accurate.

02:06:25.000 It wasn't the best.

02:06:26.000 They were mistakes.

02:06:28.000 But I was impressed with how safe they were, the two guys running it, TMB and Pestilence, because that was a concern for me.

02:06:34.000 If you could see the aerial footage, when we first go out there and they're shooting, I'm way back behind them because I'm like, I don't know how these people are with guns. 0.99

02:06:42.000 I've seen plenty of bad shooters do some stupid things on the line. 0.53

02:06:46.000 And then we start working like that. 0.99

02:06:48.000 So I start gaining their trust, do a couple of blots, hikes, drinking, rucking, whatever.

02:06:57.000 And then it starts, we're finding out a little bit more, not necessarily anything criminal, except for the fact that there was a Canadian who was part of their, basically, it would be like their National Guard, but he got doxed.

02:07:14.000 And for the listeners that don't know, doxing basically is being outed.

02:07:18.000 So a lot of these accelerationist groups are big on...

02:07:21.000 Putting up flyers and stickers.

02:07:23.000 They go by and they slap up stickers everywhere, you know, save your race, join the base with a QR code.

02:07:29.000 You scan that QR code, it takes you right to bit shoot to a video of us, of a propaganda recruitment video we filmed in Georgia.

02:07:37.000 Wow. Of us shooting and everything.

02:07:40.000 And so there's one in Canada, he puts up flyers, somebody answers it.

02:07:47.000 Again, it's more in-depth in the book, but he meets this guy.

02:07:52.000 The guy does the same panel kind of thing I did, but then he gets vetted face-to-face.

02:07:57.000 So when you get vetted face-to-face, it's going to be a little bit more intense.

02:08:00.000 They do a face-to-face vetting of this guy, and he says the Punished Snake was the moniker.

02:08:08.000 His name is Patrick Matthews.

02:08:10.000 He was up there, and he vetted him face-to-face and said he's good to go.

02:08:13.000 So after about a week to two weeks, tops.

02:08:16.000 In the main chat group, this dude bails.

02:08:19.000 And it turns out that he was a journalist in Canada who went on his own and met Patrick Matthews and infiltrated, at least to a certain degree, the base.

02:08:31.000 And then he puts out in a big news article up there that this guy is Patrick Matthews.

02:08:36.000 And so Pat...

02:08:39.000 RCMP comes to his house, takes his guns, he gets booted from the National Guard thing, loses his job, his parents don't like him anymore, and they lose him.

02:08:49.000 They find his truck near the border of the United States.

02:08:53.000 So we're all looking for him.

02:08:55.000 And you have to realize that on the base case...

02:08:59.000 Let's just say you've got 40 targets.

02:09:01.000 Well, they're all over the world.

02:09:02.000 A lot of them in the United States.

02:09:04.000 Well, every one of those FBI field offices are open separate cases.

02:09:07.000 But we're all trying to work together because it's the same group.

02:09:11.000 And we get to a point to where...

02:09:16.000 I'm sorry.

02:09:16.000 We were looking for Patrick Matthews.

02:09:20.000 And there's an unbelievable case agent.

02:09:22.000 We had several on the case, but Nate Plew was running the case out of Seattle because the leader of the base had property in Seattle's territory.

02:09:36.000 But there was a case agent named Rasheed who's out of Baltimore, and he's running for the guys there.

02:09:42.000 Rasheed was able to figure out by some unbelievable phone when— We're all looking for him.

02:09:55.000 We think we might know where he's at.

02:09:56.000 And I show up at a training in North Georgia, in Rome, Georgia, and he's there.

02:10:01.000 When I pulled up, I see vehicles and I'm counting heads under the barn.

02:10:05.000 And I'm like, there's one extra person.

02:10:07.000 I know that's that person's car.

02:10:08.000 And I said, well, I'll see when I walk up.

02:10:09.000 I walk up and by then his hair had all grown out and had a red bushy beard.

02:10:13.000 And he's like, as soon as he started talking, it was a Canadian accent.

02:10:15.000 And I was like, hey man, welcome to the United States, brother.

02:10:18.000 So now we had him there.

02:10:20.000 And now we're starting to find out a little bit more about death plots and this, that, and the other.

02:10:24.000 But is it just drunk talk or are they actually planning on doing something?

02:10:27.000 And then that's when we get to the big Halloween of 2019 hate camp.

02:10:36.000 And there was base members that came in from all over the United States.

02:10:44.000 Again, I've done some pagan blots with them. 0.98

02:10:46.000 Like I said, cut yourself. 0.99

02:10:47.000 I remember the first time I did it, I was like, damn it, why didn't I bring my own knife? 0.99

02:10:52.000 And when it was time to cut your finger, the tip of their knife was broken. 0.99

02:10:58.000 And I'm like, well, I'm not going to slice my damn arm open, my tats, and I'm not going to slice my finger open. 0.97

02:11:02.000 I'm trying to stab my finger to bleed with a broken tip. 0.98

02:11:06.000 Note to self, bring your own knife next time. 0.97

02:11:08.000 So I did.

02:11:09.000 But we're doing Halloween.

02:11:13.000 We're there, and I doze off.

02:11:16.000 We've already done hand-to-hand combat, some firearm stuff.

02:11:19.000 Had a couple of drinks, and I'm charging my phone in my truck.

02:11:22.000 It's really cold, so I kind of doze off.

02:11:24.000 I wake up to pounding on my window.

02:11:26.000 Pale horse, pale horse, you got to get up.

02:11:28.000 You got to see this.

02:11:29.000 I'm like, what's going on?

02:11:31.000 And they're like, man, remember us talking about a sacrifice and a goat?

02:11:35.000 I'm like, yeah.

02:11:36.000 And they go, we got the goat.

02:11:38.000 So I get out, and there's this ram.

02:11:43.000 In the back of one of the members' trucks, they had gone not far away to a house that had three rams, and they all dressed up, and I'll paint the picture for you, because the clothing, the camouflage pattern that the base wore was Flechtarn, because Flechtarn pattern is German.

02:12:04.000 Again, Heil Hitler kind of stuff.

02:12:06.000 So they went where balaclavas cover everything up.

02:12:10.000 They hop fences, steal this ram, and bring it back to the farm in Rome, Georgia.

02:12:15.000 So I wake up, and I walk out there, and this thing's crapping all over the bed of the truck. 0.92

02:12:20.000 And one of the members, a pretty big fellow, he says, man, this thing's shitting everywhere. 0.95

02:12:24.000 And I said, well, hell, I wouldn't be too if I just got kidnapped by a bunch of dudes and flecked horn and balaclavas, you know? 0.97

02:12:32.000 So now we're kind of preparing, and I'm thinking, man, are we really going to do this?

02:12:36.000 And I walked over to the guy.

02:12:38.000 He went by Eisen, and he was going to be leading the blot. 0.86

02:12:42.000 And Eisen says, I go over to him, and I go, man, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat?

02:12:49.000 And he says, you can't let the goat hear you say that.

02:12:52.000 And I'm like, okay, do tell.

02:12:54.000 And he's like...

02:12:56.000 He goes, this is a sacrifice to Odin.

02:12:58.000 This is a beautiful sacrifice.

02:13:00.000 We love this ram.

02:13:02.000 We love this goat, whatever the hell it was.

02:13:04.000 We love it, and we're showing it love, and it is being blessed to go to Valhalla and meet Odin.

02:13:11.000 So the rule was, everybody leave your weapons, and we're going to go down to the holy spot and deep in the woods.

02:13:19.000 100-acre farm, by the way.

02:13:21.000 And we're walking down there.

02:13:24.000 And the goat's just making all kinds of racket.

02:13:27.000 And we get down.

02:13:28.000 I'm sorry.

02:13:29.000 Let me rewind just a little bit.

02:13:31.000 I'm trying to figure out in my head.

02:13:34.000 Should I do this?

02:13:35.000 Or should I just blow the case right now?

02:13:38.000 And I'm thinking, well, they said they took the goat.

02:13:41.000 Okay, so that's theft of an animal.

02:13:42.000 That's not federal.

02:13:44.000 I'm trying to go through my head.

02:13:45.000 So I go to my truck.

02:13:46.000 And I lean into one of my devices.

02:13:49.000 And I'm like, hey.

02:13:50.000 If y'all can hear me, because when I was out in the field, I'm covered.

02:13:54.000 So for that four-day hate camp, they were covering me 24-7, running shifts, they being law enforcement.

02:14:03.000 And I go and I go, hey, if y'all can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go down here and sacrifice this animal.

02:14:10.000 And I'm running it through my brain, and I know they said they stole it, but I can't come up with a good enough reason to stop this right now.

02:14:20.000 If you guys don't want me to do this, you've got to send me a sign and let me know.

02:14:25.000 And I waited, and I waited, and it was crickets.

02:14:28.000 And then I said, okay, I guess I'm going down to the woods.

02:14:33.000 So we go down there.

02:14:35.000 You had your chance.

02:14:37.000 I was waiting.

02:14:38.000 Oh, my God.

02:14:39.000 So we go down to the woods, and we get there.

02:14:45.000 And I don't know how.

02:14:46.000 I ended up at the back of the goat.

02:14:48.000 We're in a circle around the goat.

02:14:49.000 And I'm at the back of it.

02:14:51.000 And Eisen, who's leading the blot, is talking about we're going to be starting the wild hunt.

02:14:56.000 In Norse mythology, the wild hunt is basically Odin and a bunch of other gods going out in the middle of the night and whipping the crap out of every other god that they didn't like or whatever.

02:15:04.000 In the twisted version of the base, starting the wild hunt was going to start with the sacrifice of this goat, which he named Gar.

02:15:12.000 His middle name was Garfield, named after his grandfather.

02:15:15.000 To show love to the goat, he named it Gar, after his grandfather.

02:15:19.000 Okay. So he says, once we do the sacrifice, and it goes to Valhalla, that the wild hunt will start, but the wild hunt was going to be cleansing the world of non-whites. 0.99

02:15:35.000 So the goat was the start of this whole...

02:15:39.000 Wild hunt.

02:15:40.000 The wild hunt.

02:15:41.000 It's in North mythology.

02:15:42.000 It's called the wild hunt.

02:15:43.000 But again, they're twisting it from white supremacy beliefs.

02:15:47.000 So he's got this machete-type object, and I'm at the back of the goat, and he's going through it.

02:15:52.000 He says this Odin prayer, and he didn't lead the blot near as good as the actual Asatru priest that did it before, but he's trying.

02:16:02.000 And he's going back with this machete, and I'm holding the back of the goat, and somebody's holding the front of the goat.

02:16:10.000 He's coming down, he's practicing, practicing, and he's a pretty stocky kid.

02:16:14.000 And finally somebody says, just do it.

02:16:16.000 Man, he rears back with all of his strength and comes down right on the back of the neck of the goat.

02:16:22.000 I don't even know if it broke a hair, Joe.

02:16:25.000 I don't know if it's because the back strap of the goat was so thick or the blade was dull, but when he hit it, all you heard was, And for that split second, I'm holding the back of the goat, and I go, Oh, man, I just saw blood.

02:16:37.000 I just pictured something bad happening.

02:16:40.000 And then somebody says, has anybody got a gun?

02:16:42.000 Do you hear, do it again, do it again.

02:16:44.000 It might take two swings, and you hear, does anybody got a gun?

02:16:46.000 Well, I told you, we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down.

02:16:49.000 Well, this one cat, who was probably the least qualified person to be carrying a firearm anywhere within miles of us, said, yeah, I got mine.

02:16:59.000 And we were like, what are you doing with your gun?

02:17:01.000 So, TMB takes the gun, hands it to Eisen.

02:17:06.000 Eisen, we're still all on our knees in a circle around the goat for this sacrifice.

02:17:10.000 Eisen points the gun at the goat, goat's head, and then turns the opposite way.

02:17:15.000 Oh, Jesus.

02:17:16.000 And that's when the instructor enemy comes out.

02:17:18.000 I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

02:17:21.000 He's like, what?

02:17:21.000 I go, look at what you're shooting at, man.

02:17:24.000 We're all in a circle. 0.97

02:17:25.000 What the hell are you doing?

02:17:27.000 So then he chambers around and gets up close. 0.67

02:17:29.000 Pow! Even on the recording, you can hear the goat hit the ground. 0.86

02:17:33.000 Well, I was sitting there twitching.

02:17:34.000 It's been like two, three minutes.

02:17:36.000 It's still twitching. 0.96

02:17:38.000 And I'm like, hey, why don't you go put another bullet in the ram? 0.87

02:17:44.000 He's like, I think it's dead. 0.98

02:17:45.000 And I go, I'm just saying, for the love of the goat and it being happy in Valhalla, let's give it a good clean kill.

02:17:55.000 I'm trying to use this logic again.

02:17:57.000 And he puts another one in it, and then somebody says, yeah, it's definitely dead.

02:18:01.000 So you think it's over.

02:18:02.000 No, it's not over. 0.93

02:18:03.000 Now they slice the goat's throat. 0.88

02:18:04.000 And fill a cup with all of its blood.

02:18:08.000 And one of the guys had brought a sheet of acid.

02:18:11.000 Eisen had brought a sheet of acid.

02:18:12.000 Oh, boy.

02:18:13.000 Yeah, right?

02:18:14.000 It's supposed to help with a shaman, which is kind of entering the spirit world during your blot.

02:18:20.000 You're going to get high.

02:18:23.000 I'm shining the light because it's pitch dark.

02:18:25.000 We're in the middle of the woods.

02:18:26.000 And I'm shining the light for Eisen.

02:18:27.000 He's going around.

02:18:28.000 And what's happening is he's tearing off a tab.

02:18:31.000 Not everybody did it.

02:18:32.000 Of course, I didn't do it.

02:18:33.000 But he tears off a tab, puts it under a tongue.

02:18:35.000 Some people haven't even done it before.

02:18:37.000 And then you chase it down with the blood of the goat.

02:18:39.000 It's part of the sacrifice.

02:18:41.000 So he gets around.

02:18:43.000 Some people do it.

02:18:43.000 Most people do it.

02:18:45.000 A couple of us didn't.

02:18:48.000 And then it gets to me.

02:18:50.000 And I'm looking at the cup full of blood, and by this time, it's coagulating.

02:18:55.000 It's all clotty.

02:18:56.000 And I'm looking at it, and I'm like, oh, man, I do not want to turn that up.

02:19:01.000 I really don't want to turn it up.

02:19:04.000 And I think it was Pestilence that gave me an out.

02:19:06.000 He said, man, you can just taste it.

02:19:08.000 So I stuck my finger all the way down in the blood, pulled it out, sucked all the blood off my finger.

02:19:13.000 And that was my way of dealing with the sacrifice.

02:19:15.000 Not exactly fear factor stuff. 0.99

02:19:19.000 But I would have sucked. 0.96

02:19:20.000 I would have been good on that show except for the gross stuff. 0.98

02:19:23.000 But yeah. 0.94

02:19:23.000 But disgusting. 0.94

02:19:24.000 So over the next, actually the next day of training was completely obliterated because everybody, 90% of the members were all still high.

02:19:33.000 Been up all night on acid.

02:19:34.000 So we couldn't train the next day.

02:19:36.000 And I was pissed. 0.93

02:19:37.000 I told them, this is a wasted freaking day. 0.98

02:19:39.000 I said, you sons of, you know, I was giving them a hard time. 0.88

02:19:41.000 And then by Saturday we were back training again.

02:19:45.000 And then by Sunday night, I'm sorry.

02:19:47.000 Friday we were training again, and by Saturday night we did a bunch more training through the day, like, you know, navigating the land, living off the land, building bunkers and stuff like that.

02:20:03.000 And then it's time to shoot some more for the propaganda video.

02:20:07.000 So we go back down in the woods, and now we're doing a bonfire at the holy spot, and we are burning American flags. 0.98

02:20:17.000 And we're burning Holy Bibles while everybody's yelling, F your Jewish God, death to America, stuff like that. 0.97

02:20:26.000 And I remember the one kid that was pretty clumsy. 0.99

02:20:29.000 He almost fell in the fire trying to light the flag on fire.

02:20:32.000 And in the video, you can see me grab the other side.

02:20:36.000 Part of me wanted to just let him fall.

02:20:39.000 I don't know if he went up in flames or not, but a little Darwinism.

02:20:43.000 But I hold the flag.

02:20:44.000 We burn the American flag. 0.73

02:20:45.000 We're screaming all that.

02:20:46.000 And they take Holy Bibles.

02:20:50.000 And this is on the video.

02:20:52.000 They lay them face down in the fire.

02:20:55.000 And I watch the fire go up.

02:20:57.000 It's coming back down.

02:20:58.000 We've been there a minute. 0.65

02:20:59.000 Hell yeah, high-fiving, white power, all this stuff. 0.64

02:21:02.000 And it's coming back down.

02:21:04.000 And if you've ever seen like a book in a fire, all those pages, it looks a certain way, kind of ashy.

02:21:14.000 Well, the one guy, the Canadian guy, he can't not screw with a fire. 1.00

02:21:19.000 He's over there. 1.00

02:21:20.000 He's probably still got an asinine system. 1.00

02:21:21.000 Who knows? 1.00

02:21:21.000 He's still poking the fire. 1.00

02:21:23.000 So he's stoking it back up.

02:21:25.000 Well, while he's trying to stoke it back up, he flips something over.

02:21:28.000 A Bible opens face up and there's nothing burnt on it at all.

02:21:33.000 Like the outside's charred, but there's not a single page burnt.

02:21:38.000 And I'm like, okay, that's different.

02:21:42.000 So he's trying to get it started.

02:21:44.000 He starts tearing page by page, gets it on fire.

02:21:47.000 Bonfire goes back up.

02:21:48.000 We're all doing our thing.

02:21:50.000 Bonfire comes back down.

02:21:51.000 He's poking the coals again.

02:21:53.000 I'll be damned if another Bible doesn't flip open completely unburned.

02:21:56.000 And I watched them put it on their face first.

02:21:59.000 Now, I know some people with science, and they're like, well, in a lot of Bibles, the page is made out of clay, and they don't burn.

02:22:05.000 But listen, I watched the flag burn.

02:22:07.000 I watched all that stuff burn.

02:22:09.000 And I actually have a picture that if you blow it up, I didn't realize it.

02:22:13.000 I was just taking pictures like everybody else was taking pictures.

02:22:16.000 But I was in my hotel room one night just going through my pictures, and I blew it up, and you can clearly see a holy Bible in the flames.

02:22:23.000 So I'm a believer.

02:22:26.000 My faith is huge throughout the book.

02:22:28.000 I would not have been able to do any of it, in my opinion.

02:22:33.000 But I remember when that second Bible flipped open, one of the base members goes, he goes, man, these effing Bibles just won't burn.

02:22:42.000 And I remember I did it very nonchalantly, maybe only in my head, but I did a little Sammy Sosa.

02:22:47.000 You know, to the sky, you know?

02:22:49.000 I'm like, yeah, you get them, Lord.

02:22:51.000 Yeah, I'm like, yeah, that's funny.

02:22:53.000 By the way, if you want to blow everybody up, y'all just let Scotty know and I'll be real still right now.

02:22:57.000 But, yeah, so after that week, I kind of said, I got a pretty dumb sense of humor, but I got back to the office and I said, man, I've been doing undercover work off and on since 1996.

02:23:08.000 And I said, I know my skill set takes me to different places than other people.

02:23:11.000 I said, but I have never had to burn Bibles. 1.00

02:23:16.000 Burn an American flag.

02:23:17.000 And I damn sure it wasn't with a group of people that went out and stole a goat and sacrificed it at a pagan ritual and drank his blood. 0.93

02:23:23.000 I said, I've done that in three days with these guys.

02:23:26.000 And I mean, I felt weird.

02:23:28.000 I felt weird when I got back.

02:23:29.000 I just, you know, I called, I even texted my pastor.

02:23:31.000 I'm like, I need you to say a prayer.

02:23:33.000 I just felt, I don't know, dirty, something.

02:23:36.000 Yeah. Felt weird, you know?

02:23:38.000 Which is weird that guys like that exist and organize and find other guys like that and get together.

02:23:43.000 It's online.

02:23:43.000 It's this phone.

02:23:45.000 I know.

02:23:45.000 Listen, a lot of these kids were young.

02:23:48.000 I say kids because it was the first alias I ever did where I made myself younger.

02:23:54.000 My whole FBI career, I was always two years older.

02:23:57.000 It was just easy to remember.

02:24:00.000 I mean, I turned 40 with the outlaws.

02:24:02.000 So when I turned 42 years later in real life and I'm in wherever I was at, McAllen or Tennessee, I'm like, yeah, my other party was a little better.

02:24:10.000 I'm not going to lie.

02:24:11.000 I'm like, you know, the outlaws party was...

02:24:14.000 I mean, thank you guys for throwing me a party, but it's not really nothing compared to when I turned 42 years ago.

02:24:19.000 But for the base, I had to hustle and get in there fast because we were getting calls from world working partners because, again, this is online.

02:24:28.000 You hop in those groups, there's people from South Africa, Australia, UK, Norway.

02:24:34.000 You name it.

02:24:36.000 Because it's online.

02:24:37.000 Now, they may not be able to get weapons like we got weapons, but they were even planning on flying into the States and doing some hate crimes.

02:24:43.000 Well, I'm sure we'd be doing hate crimes, but a hate camp.

02:24:46.000 But they dive in.

02:24:48.000 And what I saw a lot of is younger guys, outcasts, don't have a job, can't get a partner.

02:25:03.000 They just dive down this rabbit hole of hate.

02:25:05.000 They've probably been bullied.

02:25:06.000 And they dive down this rabbit hole of hate.

02:25:09.000 And it seems like it goes back to gangs and cults and stuff like that.

02:25:13.000 It's that need to belong.

02:25:15.000 And they want to bring you in.

02:25:16.000 And that's how they get you.

02:25:18.000 And then power.

02:25:19.000 And being inclusive.

02:25:22.000 Having people with your own like mind.

02:25:24.000 But that's not just on the white supremacy side.

02:25:26.000 Same thing's happening on the... 0.79

02:25:29.000 Radical Islamicide. 0.99

02:25:30.000 Yeah. They're radicalizing you online, inundating you with videos.

02:25:35.000 You could go into Gab.

02:25:36.000 I don't even know if Gab's still around, but you could go into Gab and there would be a group called 14 Words.

02:25:40.000 Well, that's the 14 words coined by David Lane.

02:25:43.000 It is famous in the white supremacy culture.

02:25:46.000 It says something to the effect I don't have it memorized anymore.

02:25:49.000 As I say a lot of times when I'm speaking, I go, hey, just so you guys know, I appreciate the questions, but since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore.

02:26:00.000 Probably a good decision.

02:26:01.000 I mean, I appreciate you asking me, but...

02:26:03.000 Were they the wackiest people that you were around?

02:26:07.000 It's going to be close. 0.98

02:26:09.000 Well, obviously the pedophiles are the most disturbing.

02:26:10.000 Well, yeah, but it's going to be close, but the...

02:26:14.000 I don't want to say I'm not easily shocked.

02:26:19.000 It's just that, I mean, you see so much stuff.

02:26:23.000 It's like, again, it's that proverbial coroner who shows up eating a sandwich with brains everywhere because they've seen them.

02:26:30.000 They've got to eat.

02:26:31.000 You know, they're just used to it.

02:26:34.000 So there's definitely been some wacky things.

02:26:37.000 I mean, on the case agent side, that stuff on the border was pretty wacky.

02:26:40.000 But undercover-wise, these guys, I mean, they were...

02:26:46.000 I don't know about calling them wacky, but just, they were planning it.

02:26:49.000 I mean, what we did is we uncovered violent, we uncovered several murder plots.

02:26:53.000 They had found a couple that they believed were an Antifa couple, a couple of counties over in Georgia, and we went and cased the place.

02:27:03.000 The idea was, it started, it took a while to come to fruition because it changed a couple of times, but essentially what was agreed upon is that we were all going to beat the Georgia cell.

02:27:15.000 When I say cell, it's C-E-L-L, which by the way, it's probably a good time to say, the base in Arabic is Al-Qaeda. 1.00

02:27:24.000 Oh, wow.

02:27:26.000 So Al-Qaeda wanted to have three to five man cells, C-E-L-L, I know I got a redneck accent, cells all over the world waiting on that D-Day call.

02:27:37.000 Well, the base, which stands for Al-Qaeda, wanted three to five man cells all over the world waiting for the Boogaloo. 0.79

02:27:44.000 Wow. You've got kids, 21-year-old, has no car, has no job, but has an arsenal in his closet.

02:27:54.000 He's wearing plate carriers or the same plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears.

02:27:58.000 It's not cheap stuff.

02:28:00.000 And however they're getting their money, either from parents or whatever they're doing, they are building their kit for what they refer to as the day, the set-off of the race war.

02:28:10.000 So we uncovered those murder plots.

02:28:14.000 Helter Skelter, we got to postpone it.

02:28:16.000 Because once we figured out they were trying to kill people, man, we got to slow this thing down and make sure we've got control of it.

02:28:22.000 Much like a murder for hire.

02:28:23.000 If you're hiring me to kill somebody, I want to make sure that I got the contract so you're not out trying to find somebody else to kill this person.

02:28:29.000 So we were riding out there and Helter had not seen the house yet.

02:28:36.000 And Helter, I'll tell you the plan in a second.

02:28:39.000 Helter, we're riding out there and Helter goes, hey, If you don't mind, man, I'd really like to pop my cherry on this one.

02:28:47.000 Well, you and I hear pop my cherry, it probably means something different.

02:28:51.000 Because I was like, what are you talking about?

02:28:53.000 And then Luke, TMB, told me, he goes, I think he actually wants to participate in the killing.

02:28:59.000 And he said, man, I've been waiting for this for two years. 0.99

02:29:01.000 He goes, I actually want to put one of the bullets in their head. 0.97

02:29:04.000 And I said, well, it's a.22,.25, whatever, with the silencer on it. 0.98

02:29:07.000 It may take more than one.

02:29:08.000 It shouldn't be a big deal.

02:29:09.000 But the idea was, and this is how much research was done.

02:29:14.000 We're going to go to a campsite.

02:29:16.000 We're going to leave everything electronic there.

02:29:17.000 We're going to leave from there.

02:29:19.000 We're going to have a car that doesn't come back to anybody, rental car, whatever, fake plates, whatever.

02:29:24.000 We're going to go to a pay-by-the-hour hotel, motel.

02:29:27.000 We're going to go there.

02:29:28.000 We're going to scrub and scrub and wash and wash to get any flakes of skin that may be loose to come off.

02:29:35.000 As detailed as Vaseline on your eyebrows.

02:29:38.000 Facial hair so you don't drop any kind of DNA.

02:29:41.000 Tape up, kind of like WMD.

02:29:43.000 We're going to tape our jacket to our gloves, our pants to our boots, so nothing can leak out.

02:29:49.000 Luke had even done so much research.

02:29:51.000 He had read that a lot of people who kill somebody for the first time lose control of their bowels.

02:29:56.000 So he was suggesting we all wear Depends while we go commit the murder.

02:30:01.000 I didn't tell him I'd ever killed anybody, but I looked at him and said, I think I'm okay.

02:30:05.000 I don't need to wear Depends.

02:30:08.000 So that was the thing.

02:30:09.000 And then we were going to go into the house, breach our way in, murder whoever's there, because it was like, are there any kids there? 0.98

02:30:17.000 Helter was like, I don't have a problem killing a commie kid. 0.99

02:30:20.000 Now, Helter kind of looked like a normal guy, had a computer IT job.

02:30:24.000 He said that was a great cover for him, because everybody thinks he's just a normal person in society.

02:30:31.000 This is a guy who also told me, he said, Again, they want to accelerate the downfall.

02:30:37.000 This guy told me, he said, I voted for Hillary Clinton.

02:30:41.000 And I was like, I'm in here with neo-Nazis.

02:30:43.000 They threw me off guard.

02:30:44.000 I'm like, why would you do that?

02:30:46.000 And he goes, think about it, bro.

02:30:48.000 He said, we want to accelerate the collapse of society.

02:30:53.000 He goes, if she gets in, they usually try to defund the police.

02:30:56.000 They make our military weaker.

02:30:57.000 There's going to be riots.

02:30:59.000 There's going to be all this stuff.

02:31:00.000 And there's just going to be chaos.

02:31:02.000 It'll help speed up the downfall of society.

02:31:05.000 Wow. That's what their thinking is.

02:31:08.000 So, we've got that murder plot going on, and then you have the Canadian guy and his cell up in, actually, it would have been Can't Go Back, which is Brian Limley.

02:31:20.000 They had a cell up in the Maryland area.

02:31:23.000 And I went up, and I trained with them, and they, at that point in time, so it would have been coming up to January of 2020, there was going to be a huge Second Amendment rally in Virginia because the governor at the time was pretty liberal, did not like guns, and was going to be making a lot of—was trying to crack down on guns, Second Amendment.

02:31:45.000 So the idea of those base members was— What if that's the set-off of the Boogaloo?

02:31:50.000 What if, while all those people are there, you've got three percenters, which is not illegal, you've got militia, which is not illegal, but you've got people wanting to do nefarious things, most likely.

02:31:59.000 You've got cops.

02:32:00.000 What if we just pop a couple of rounds, nobody knows who's shooting at who, and maybe that's the kickoff of the Boogaloo.

02:32:08.000 Again, there's not a lot of forethought and afterthought with these guys.

02:32:11.000 It's like, what about the National?

02:32:13.000 I mean, what about Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine?

02:32:15.000 What about frickin' cops?

02:32:18.000 You know, we'll deal with that. 0.91

02:32:19.000 What about girlfriends?

02:32:20.000 I ask them, I go, you know, I hear you guys talking about procreation all the time.

02:32:22.000 I don't see any women. 0.99

02:32:23.000 I got a woman. 0.99

02:32:24.000 She's not for share. 1.00

02:32:26.000 And they're like, oh, we'll just rape them. 1.00

02:32:28.000 And I go, I'm sorry, what? 1.00

02:32:30.000 He goes, yeah, we're just going to rape the women. 1.00

02:32:32.000 When D-Day happens and it's the bug look, yeah, we're just going to take the women and rape them. 1.00

02:32:36.000 I kind of giggled and I said, you guys don't have a lot of experience with women, do you? 0.99

02:32:42.000 And they're like...

02:32:43.000 Why? And I go, well, that stuff might work for a little while, but sooner or later, you're going to have to go to sleep.

02:32:48.000 You might wake up missing some parts you went to bed with.

02:32:50.000 I'm like, what are you talking about?

02:32:52.000 But we uncovered all that, and we got enough evidence against them that everybody was happy.

02:32:58.000 And the week of the takedown—I'm sorry.

02:33:02.000 Yeah, it would have been close to the week of the takedown.

02:33:04.000 I had to postpone it.

02:33:06.000 I'd had a lumbar fusion in 2002.

02:33:08.000 What I didn't know, I thought it was just— My disc, a bulging disc or something.

02:33:12.000 What I didn't know is that fusion had broken free.

02:33:15.000 And for about 15 years, I just had nothing.

02:33:18.000 I had no disc.

02:33:19.000 The cadaver bone dissipated.

02:33:20.000 So my back was spasming really, really bad.

02:33:23.000 Like I couldn't get out of the floor.

02:33:25.000 So I took some prednisone, got off the floor with electric stem.

02:33:30.000 We had to postpone it for a week.

02:33:32.000 So then I went, and on a Friday, I flew into Baltimore, met the case team, drove up Saturday to Delaware, trained all day with those guys, helped get more information that everybody wanted, came back late to Baltimore, flew to Atlanta, drove up to...

02:33:54.000 Try to close the deal with the Georgia crew.

02:33:57.000 And I think I got home Monday for a couple of hours.

02:34:00.000 I went back.

02:34:01.000 Now I'm meeting with the SWAT teams because we're planning on the takedown.

02:34:04.000 And by Wednesday, I picked up Luke, who lived on the 100-acre farm.

02:34:10.000 And we did a ruse where the car, like my car, was messed up.

02:34:15.000 I'm like, did you hear that?

02:34:15.000 Actually, more divine intervention.

02:34:17.000 I was going to fake that something was wrong with my car and my truck.

02:34:20.000 We're driving.

02:34:20.000 All of a sudden, someone goes, bam!

02:34:22.000 Like that.

02:34:22.000 And I go...

02:34:23.000 I didn't run over anything.

02:34:24.000 I go, did you hear that?

02:34:25.000 He said, yeah. 0.98

02:34:25.000 I said, I swear if that damn brake caliber froze again, I said, let me pull over. 0.98

02:34:30.000 Well, I pulled over to the spot SWAT team wanted me to, and then we did a ruse. 0.99

02:34:34.000 I was around the back of the truck looking, and another truck pulls up.

02:34:37.000 I'm like, oh my gosh, man, I can't believe you're here.

02:34:39.000 And then I jump in that truck, and then the SWAT team and the Bearcats rolling over the hill, and they took him without incident.

02:34:45.000 Helter Skelter and Pestilence got picked up without incident.

02:34:48.000 We kept all that quiet on Wednesday, because come Thursday morning, SWAT teams from Washington Field Office and Baltimore Field Office were going to be hitting that crew, so we wanted to keep it quiet.

02:34:59.000 So now Thursday, they get arrested.

02:35:02.000 Now stuff's starting to come out.

02:35:03.000 I'm still in a chat group, and Friday, I'm watching it, and they're like, Pell Horse, are you there? 0.99

02:35:10.000 And they're like, wait a minute, now the affidavits are starting to come out.

02:35:12.000 It says that there's a federal undercover agent that infiltrated the base. 0.99

02:35:16.000 And they're like, who's the damn fed in here? 0.98

02:35:18.000 And I'm just being quiet. 0.99

02:35:20.000 Somewhere around 515, the leader of the base, he went by the monikers Norman Spears and Roman Wolf.

02:35:26.000 His real name is Ronaldo Nazaro, so you can let this sink in.

02:35:30.000 Here's an American citizen born in America, went to Villanova, was in the Army, to my understanding, Army, Intel, and he was contracted at some point for some job in the Department of Justice.

02:35:44.000 Now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia.

02:35:48.000 I guess he supposedly teaches English.

02:35:50.000 They tried to say the base didn't have a leader.

02:35:52.000 He's definitely the leader.

02:35:53.000 Wow. And has a Russian family.

02:35:57.000 So you can do your own speculation there.

02:35:59.000 I'm not working that case anymore. 0.98

02:36:01.000 How fucking crazy. 0.97

02:36:03.000 Right? What was his red pill moment? 0.99

02:36:05.000 Because clearly, if you look at his history, he was kind of on the liberal side.

02:36:08.000 Something happened somewhere.

02:36:09.000 And then he starts spewing crazy stuff.

02:36:11.000 And then the base gets infiltrated by like...

02:36:14.000 Journalists from Vice.

02:36:15.000 Every time the base got infiltrated, they tightened their obsec more and more.

02:36:20.000 Every propaganda video we did, the rule was, it has to be better than the last one.

02:36:24.000 Because we're trying to get everybody.

02:36:27.000 And so I'm watching all this roll out.

02:36:30.000 There's no way a Fed's in here, this, that, and the other, blah, blah, blah.

02:36:32.000 And then I see Roman finally respond around like 5-ish on Friday.

02:36:36.000 And he's like, I'm not sure we could have found him.

02:36:41.000 Because he was good.

02:36:42.000 He attended every meeting, which I didn't.

02:36:45.000 He said he attended every meeting, which maybe that should have been a red flag, but I didn't attend every training or meeting.

02:36:51.000 And I'm like, okay, he's figured out it's me.

02:36:53.000 And then he said something else, and then that was it.

02:36:55.000 It says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolf.

02:36:57.000 So I screenshotted that, and I sent it to all the case teams all over the United States and the headquarters, FBI.

02:37:03.000 And I said, and I'm out.

02:37:06.000 Wow. Yeah, so they went down.

02:37:07.000 That was a wild case.

02:37:12.000 The effects on family and stuff.

02:37:14.000 At that point, I mean, we're talking 2020.

02:37:16.000 I started in 96 at a state and local level.

02:37:19.000 But my wife, we were dating when I was a narc.

02:37:22.000 So she was kind of used to, hey, I went out and picked up some hookers and got some cocaine stuff. 0.99

02:37:27.000 But clearly there were some very rough times, especially during that three-year period around the outlaws.

02:37:33.000 But it's not always easy.

02:37:35.000 But what she says, because people always ask, and the spouses do not get... 0.86

02:37:42.000 She's not law enforcement. 0.98

02:37:43.000 She's not desensitized to my world.

02:37:46.000 She used to freak out and be nervous when I'd go in undercovers. 0.89

02:37:50.000 And what she would do is, to help her cope, she moved furniture.

02:37:55.000 I'd come homing up in the door and trip over stuff.

02:37:57.000 I'm like, what in the...

02:37:59.000 How did the couch get...

02:38:01.000 Who moved that refrigerator? 0.97

02:38:03.000 You know, crazy stuff.

02:38:04.000 But one day, what she said is, she said, look, she just had to give it up to God.

02:38:09.000 She's like, I can sit here and worry every day, and I'm going to kill myself worrying about it, but I essentially don't have control.

02:38:17.000 I've got to pray that you're good at what you do, and if it's your time to go, he can take me any time he wants. 0.93

02:38:25.000 But finishing the base case is the first time, like an idiot, I should have realized it, but I realized after an undercover, I have to decompress.

02:38:33.000 I have to kind of, okay, all right, I get my mind, all right, that's done, okay? 0.97

02:38:38.000 So does she.

02:38:39.000 Right. And we were sitting out on the back porch having an adult beverage.

02:38:45.000 I might have been smoking a cigar.

02:38:47.000 But she said something to the effect of something.

02:38:50.000 I was at the base and she was like, yeah, I was covering you in prayer.

02:38:54.000 And I kind of giggled.

02:38:56.000 And she's like, she looks at me and I'm like, what?

02:39:00.000 I mean, we've been doing this for a while, right?

02:39:01.000 I mean, you don't have to be worried about me, worried about me.

02:39:05.000 We've been doing this a minute. 0.99

02:39:07.000 She jerked a knot in my butt, man. 0.99

02:39:09.000 She looked at me, stern, and she said, let me tell you something. 0.99

02:39:11.000 You are my husband, and I'm your wife, and it's my job to cover you.

02:39:16.000 And when you're going on these things, I'm covering you.

02:39:19.000 And I stopped smiling, and I said, I greatly appreciate that, and I'm sorry if I insulted you, but thank you.

02:39:26.000 Wow. Craziness.

02:39:28.000 What a life you've had.

02:39:31.000 Well, listen, brother, thank you very much for being here.

02:39:33.000 It was great talking to you.

02:39:34.000 Great hearing these stories. 0.98

02:39:35.000 Fucking amazing. 0.99

02:39:36.000 So insane and so interesting. 0.99

02:39:39.000 I do have a wacky one.

02:39:40.000 I forgot.

02:39:40.000 Another one?

02:39:41.000 Yeah, you want a wacky one?

02:39:42.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:39:43.000 It's a murder for hire, basically.

02:39:44.000 Oh. I got hired to do me and another task force officer who went with me on the undercover.

02:39:50.000 Essentially, they thought we were bikers, and they ended up hiring us to do four home invasions and murder two people.

02:39:55.000 So you want to talk about wacky people?

02:39:57.000 This was towards the end of my career.

02:39:59.000 Her name was Tammy.

02:40:00.000 She gets in.

02:40:01.000 It's all in the news and the court records.

02:40:05.000 We go.

02:40:06.000 And we meet the husband.

02:40:07.000 We thought the husband was the one wanting to get us.

02:40:08.000 And we were, like, off a dirt road.

02:40:10.000 It's pretty rough, man.

02:40:11.000 Like, walking up to the place, I'm like, hey, man, watch out.

02:40:14.000 Sharp Object, Sharp Object, TB, MRSA.

02:40:17.000 Right, right, right.

02:40:18.000 You know?

02:40:21.000 So we meet him, and he's like, oh, that's really not my plan.

02:40:24.000 That's my old lady's plan. 1.00

02:40:25.000 I go, where's your old lady? 1.00

02:40:26.000 Well, she's asleep.

02:40:27.000 Are you going to wake her up?

02:40:29.000 You want me to?

02:40:30.000 I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you if you're not planning it.

02:40:33.000 I'm here to make money.

02:40:34.000 So we pick her up.

02:40:36.000 She comes out, gets in the truck.

02:40:37.000 We start driving around looking at these locations of where they wanted it because they knew some people that were dealing dope.

02:40:42.000 They had the ends on where the guns and the money were, so they thought. 0.99

02:40:46.000 And they wanted us to do the home invasions and kill them. 0.98

02:40:51.000 But while we're riding around, she says, if you need somebody, torture her. 0.98

02:40:55.000 I'm really good in torture. 0.70

02:40:56.000 I love torture.

02:40:58.000 I'm driving.

02:40:59.000 She's in the passenger seat.

02:41:01.000 Clawing herself.

02:41:02.000 She's weathered.

02:41:03.000 Yeah, she's weathered.

02:41:04.000 Tweaking, probably.

02:41:05.000 And this is how my mind works.

02:41:10.000 So she's like, yeah, I'm into torture. 1.00

02:41:12.000 She goes, you know that you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it up a man's penis and rip it back out and then pour salt in the penis. 1.00

02:41:20.000 Well, now the guys in the back of the truck are going, oh my gosh. 0.98

02:41:23.000 What she didn't know was two weeks prior to that, I had my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my first lumbar fusion.

02:41:30.000 That wasn't the problem.

02:41:31.000 They messed up my privates and they had to dry cath me. 1.00

02:41:34.000 So when she's talking about this hanger going in and out, I'm kind of feeling.

02:41:37.000 I'm like, I think I know what is similar to that. 0.55

02:41:43.000 So she says that and then she says, yeah, you can take a PVC pipe and you can run it up somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up it and rip it out.

02:41:52.000 And we pull up to a red light and I lean over and I go, why are you so angry?

02:41:57.000 And she's like, oh, no.

02:41:58.000 I said, are you sure you don't want to kill these people?

02:42:00.000 She's like, oh, no, I'm too well known. 0.94

02:42:02.000 But if you need somebody tortured, I can do it.

02:42:04.000 Then on the next ride, or riding to the next place, she says that her husband went on a cocaine bender, and she told him never to do that again.

02:42:11.000 Cocaine meth something.

02:42:13.000 She said cocaine, but he'd been gone for three days.

02:42:15.000 She couldn't find him.

02:42:16.000 He comes home after being high for three, four days, and he crashes.

02:42:19.000 She's so pissed at him.

02:42:21.000 She tells us the story that... 0.78

02:42:23.000 He's naked. 0.99

02:42:23.000 She takes a 2x4, shoves it under his back legs, takes an industrial stapler, and staples his scrotum to the board. 0.99

02:42:30.000 He didn't wake up.

02:42:31.000 That's how down he was, or his crash was.

02:42:34.000 But when he did, he finds himself hooked to a board, and he's screaming for help.

02:42:39.000 And she wouldn't help him.

02:42:40.000 He had to call a friend to do it.

02:42:41.000 So if you think the story's BS, if you think the story's BS, we confirmed it with the husband.

02:42:47.000 He's like, oh yeah, yeah, she did it.

02:42:50.000 I ain't never had no woman do nothing like that to me before. 1.00

02:42:52.000 And I'm like...

02:42:53.000 So my buddy in the back, he goes, you really don't like men, do you?

02:42:59.000 And she's like, I've been unlucky in love.

02:43:01.000 But in my head, that's when I'm looking over and I go, these are my people.

02:43:06.000 This is my skill set.

02:43:07.000 This is what I get.

02:43:08.000 I don't get Wall Street.

02:43:12.000 Jesus Christ.

02:43:13.000 So yeah, there's all kinds of stuff like that, man. 1.00

02:43:16.000 God damn. 1.00

02:43:18.000 That's a crazy life, brother. 1.00

02:43:19.000 Yep. So now it's book.

02:43:22.000 I still teach alert.

02:43:23.000 Tell everybody the book.

02:43:24.000 The book is codenamed Pale Horse.

02:43:27.000 And it's how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis. 0.85

02:43:31.000 But it's not just white supremacy. 0.93

02:43:33.000 It's got the outlaws. 0.98

02:43:34.000 It's got...

02:43:35.000 Personal stuff, the life.

02:43:36.000 There's murder-for-hire cases all in there.

02:43:39.000 The pedophile story's in there.

02:43:41.000 Public corruption cases where, I mean, some of the targets, like I got put in a corner, I underestimated.

02:43:48.000 I'm dealing with a guy who's toothless and a mountain backwoods guy.

02:43:53.000 And he beat me at chest that night.

02:43:55.000 And I ended up with a bag of cocaine open, shoved in my face. 0.99

02:43:58.000 He's got a sawed-off shotgun, a red-boned hound's growling in my crotch. 0.99

02:44:02.000 And he's like, if I find out you're the law, you're a dead man. 0.99

02:44:04.000 Do it if you're not a cop.

02:44:05.000 I had to figure out a way to get out of that.

02:44:08.000 So there's stuff like that all in there.

02:44:11.000 I bonded with that guy, too.

02:44:15.000 That's part of your skill set, right?

02:44:16.000 And when somebody sent me his obituary, I felt sad.

02:44:20.000 Wow. This is my last line from him, and I think you'll like it.

02:44:24.000 These are some of the people you deal with.

02:44:26.000 He said, now, Scott, I'm going to speed it up because he was on pills a lot, and he drank all day and did cocaine all day.

02:44:31.000 So it was a constant battle of being pickled.

02:44:33.000 But he's like, I think he died five years before I met him.

02:44:37.000 I was pretty sure it's the dope keeping him alive.

02:44:39.000 I think he died, he just didn't know it yet.

02:44:41.000 But he would be like, now, Scott, you know I don't do cocaine anymore.

02:44:48.000 And I'd go, I know, man.

02:44:50.000 He goes, I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore.

02:44:53.000 I say, I know.

02:44:54.000 And he'd pour a cocaine in his hand and he goes, but this right here, that's just a bump.

02:44:59.000 And I'm looking going, what?

02:45:03.000 You just did cocaine.

02:45:04.000 And he said, you know, I don't sell cocaine anymore either.

02:45:07.000 And I'd say, I know, man.

02:45:08.000 He goes, I used to sell truckloads of it.

02:45:10.000 I said, I know.

02:45:11.000 I know you don't do it.

02:45:12.000 Now, but if you need them five ounces, I can get them for you for this much money.

02:45:15.000 And I'm like, I don't...

02:45:16.000 That's the kind of stuff, man.

02:45:17.000 You got to find humor in that, but yeah.

02:45:19.000 May he rest in peace.

02:45:21.000 May he rest in peace.

02:45:22.000 Well, thank you, Scott.

02:45:23.000 Thank you for everything.

02:45:24.000 That was a lot of fun.

02:45:25.000 Thank you.

02:45:25.000 I really appreciate it.

02:45:26.000 I appreciate you, man.

02:45:26.000 And good luck on the book.

02:45:27.000 I guarantee it's going to sell like crazy.

02:45:29.000 One more time, Jamie.

02:45:30.000 Throw that up there so everybody can take a look at it.

02:45:33.000 There it is.

02:45:34.000 Codename Pale Horse.

02:45:36.000 It's available now.

02:45:37.000 Did you do an audiobook?

02:45:38.000 Yes, I'm sorry.

02:45:39.000 Thank you for saying that.

02:45:40.000 It's my voice.

02:45:41.000 Thank you.

02:45:41.000 Yeah, it's my voice.

02:45:43.000 Thank you.

02:45:43.000 Actually, that was something I was told I needed to say.

02:45:45.000 It has to.

02:45:47.000 So, yeah.

02:45:48.000 No offense to the other peers of mine that have done books or people that have done it before me, but if I click on it and I hear, there I was in the basement.

02:45:57.000 I'm like, what in the hell?

02:45:59.000 That has to be your place. 0.91

02:46:01.000 I read the book and then we'll see what happens as far as TV and stuff like that.

02:46:07.000 Someone's going to want to do something.

02:46:09.000 I've been on, again, the tactical stuff.

02:46:12.000 I've been in armor on movie sets in Tennessee.

02:46:17.000 I actually did a cami.

02:46:19.000 In the movie world, I have one kill under my belt.

02:46:21.000 All right.

02:46:23.000 But that's it, man.

02:46:24.000 I'm just trying to pay it forward, still trying to learn, still trying to do good things.

02:46:28.000 Well, best of luck with this.

02:46:29.000 I know something good is going to come out of this because the story is incredible.

02:46:33.000 Thank you very much.

02:46:33.000 Thank you.

02:46:34.000 Thanks, brother.

02:46:34.000 Thanks for being here.

02:46:35.000 All right.

The Joe Rogan Experience - March 27, 2025

Joe Rogan Experience #2295 - Scott Payne

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Summary

Transcript