On this episode of the Biker podcast, we have a guest who has spent 25 years undercover working for the FBI, the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs. Yes, you read that correctly, 25 years working undercover in the KKK, Nazi Organizations, and Biker Gangs. And then some. This is a crazy, crazy life.
00:00:16.000So, to get everybody up to speed right from the beginning, you spent 25 years undercover working for the FBI in the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs.
00:01:27.000I hit an elective that was criminal justice, and man, I really liked it.
00:01:31.000Psychology was always a strong thing for me, but it took a back seat, and I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology.
00:01:40.000But during those criminal justice courses, I was like, at first, for a fleeting moment, I said, I'm going to be an attorney.
00:04:04.000Of the American Motorcycle Association, they came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good, law-abiding citizens.
00:06:45.000We may want to make numerous buys on that corner, try to come in with the jump-out boys, they used to call them, and shut that corner down for a while.
00:06:51.000We may be trying to make buys on the low-level people, on the corner selling, who are probably most likely users, at least in my experience.
00:06:59.000So maybe like every five crack rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves.
00:07:04.000And maybe we want to get them, build a case on them, kind of try to climb it up.
00:07:10.000And then find out who's the distributor.
00:07:12.000Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Visible.
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00:10:30.000But one thing I noticed at the state level was we would all go back then.
00:10:35.000The South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in Columbia, South Carolina.
00:10:39.000So we would go there and get certified.
00:10:42.000But in your county, I mean, how many ways can I shape?
00:10:46.000I'm in the same county, and you're going out here making buys.
00:10:48.000How many times can I change my car, change my outfit, change my facial hair, the hair on my head, until everybody starts knowing I'm a narc?
00:10:58.000Because when you're in that local environment, and I mean, I'm talking Greenville, South Carolina, Miami might be a little bit different, or New York City, but...
00:11:06.000You're going to court a lot, and people are seeing you in court.
00:11:11.000So a lot of it turns into just running sources.
00:11:14.000To me, I believe developing and running sources is hand-in-hand with Undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer, and I don't have a felon on my record, but they do, they're still the ones we're wiring up and going in to get the evidence.
00:12:00.000Yeah, it's the pendulum swings, right?
00:12:03.000Or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to apply and they've got felons on their record.
00:12:10.000And we're like, bro, you can't be a cop.
00:12:13.000You've got a felon on your record, you know?
00:12:15.000But I remember thinking, wouldn't it be kind of cool?
00:12:19.000If South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database where it says, hey, Scott's skill set is biker, you know, riding motorcycles can go in a biker bar, whatever, strip clubs, this, that, and the other.
00:12:32.000Maybe Charleston County needs somebody.
00:12:34.000Wouldn't that be cool if I could just shoot down there and make buys for Charleston County but go back?
00:12:39.000Then that way nobody knows me in Charleston County.
00:12:41.000Right. And when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what they do.
00:12:44.000You get certified in the FBI and you can go around the world.
00:12:48.000So what was your initial job in the FBI?
00:14:17.000Pull away, and then they've got a hidden switch or something that notifies us when they open it, just to make that case tighter.
00:14:23.000So I started doing cameos on stuff like that, and then I landed in Undercover, which I don't really talk about in the book because it's classified, and we are coming up on 25 years, which is usually when they declassify them.
00:14:37.000It's kind of been outed, but I just don't talk about it because I don't want to end up in the box, the lie detector, and have somebody beating me down.
00:14:45.000But I landed that Undercover, And after about 30 days in San Antonio, they gave me another 60-day extension and I became the primary.
00:14:54.000And because I was there full-time working undercover, they transferred me to the San Antonio division.
00:14:59.000So the first undercover gig, what was your job?
00:15:25.000But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program and sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already in or slated for an undercover.
00:15:37.000And so you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments?
00:15:45.000What happens, at least in my experience, what happened with me is I get certified.
00:15:51.000Our certification school is very, very intense.
00:15:54.000I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense.
00:15:59.000It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation.
00:16:03.000Not going to give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that I got certified in 2002.
00:16:12.000In 2003, I started role-playing and assisting at the school.
00:16:16.000I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired.
00:16:49.000I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know.
00:16:52.000Maybe we were on the SWAT team together.
00:16:54.000Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away.
00:16:57.000But you go to the UC school and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in.
00:19:15.000It's like it's a very particular type of person that would want to put themselves in that highly stressful, adrenaline-charged situation where, you know, any mistake and they find out who you really are, you're dead.
00:20:31.000A lot of times, I was an undercover coordinator.
00:20:34.000Every division has an undercover coordinator, so you are the front line on all things covert, and you're the liaison between headquarters and that field office.
00:20:42.000So if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, hey, I'll just put a text out to you.
00:20:49.000Or we may just send out a canvas, and then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator.
00:20:55.000And if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureau-wide canvas and see what we can get.
00:21:20.000I'll get off on a tangent, but throughout my career, My mentors, my peers, people I've been blessed to mentor, some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents.
00:22:21.000So there's roles for all sorts of different types of personalities and life skills.
00:22:26.000Yeah, and I'm like, you might see something where they say, I need a person this tall that speaks this language, that does this and knows this, but what are you trying to do?
00:22:34.000Essentially, the FBI works everything.
00:22:38.000And if a target, if we have predication, or predicated target, or there's information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious, if we want to do an undercover, How do I get close to you?
00:23:34.000Now, they've got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here.
00:23:41.000But to get that airtight case and to find out what's really going on, Now they're at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover.
00:24:08.000In the book, I make a joke because I call them a gentleman's club, but then I say that's an oxymoron because I'm like, everyone I've been in, there's not a lot of gentlemen in there, and that includes me back in the whatever days they were.
00:24:22.000But I knew how they work, so I went in there and I just started hanging out.
00:24:26.000And, of course, this accident in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm getting noticed as soon as I start talking.
00:25:31.000I don't care whether you're smart, stupid, big.
00:25:34.000You know, skinny, fat, any ethnicity, it doesn't matter.
00:25:38.000And that's one thing I do miss about the job.
00:25:40.000I miss getting called out at 2 in the morning for the craziest of the crazies.
00:25:43.000And you show up to do an interview, and essentially, I befriend you, and you either confess, or we find out you really weren't doing anything.
00:25:52.000I do remember one night, this wasn't undercover, but they called me because towards the end of my career, I was doing nothing but...
00:26:59.000So when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see like this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit, but I never got that training.
00:28:57.000And then now we get to the night to where the outlaws are leaving their clubhouse.
00:29:02.000And for the listeners that don't know, in the biker world, especially the 1%er world, there's a mandatory meeting every week at a clubhouse, and they refer to it as church.
00:29:32.000Now, the intelligence that they had provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, hey, man, can they wear their colors, their cuts, their leathers in the bar?
00:29:40.000And they said, no, they don't allow that.
00:29:41.000And I'm thinking in my mind, well, that makes my approach easier because I'm not a tattooed guy watching naked women listening to heavy metal and drinking next to a guy who's watching naked women and heavy metal drinking.
00:29:53.000They had that part wrong because about 13, 15 outlaws come walking into the bar.
00:34:28.000You shouldn't have to worry about identity theft on top of everything else.
00:34:31.000And trust me, it's a big worry, especially since during tax season, your sensitive info does a lot of traveling to places you can't control.
00:34:40.000It goes through payroll, your accountant, your tax consultant, and countless other data centers on its way to the IRS.
00:34:48.000Any of them can expose you to identity theft because they all have the info on your W-2, just the ticket for criminals to steal your identity.
00:34:56.000It's no wonder last year the IRS reported tax fraud due to identity theft went up 20%.
00:36:20.000Usually, with undercover cases, in my experience, the evidence is so overwhelming, the only thing the defense can claim is entrapment, which you should be able to shoot that down pretty quick if you've done your due diligence, or they try to make you look like a piece of trash on the stand.
00:36:35.000So imagine if they're saying, well, he did dope with us.
00:36:38.000You need to be able to articulate, did you?
00:37:18.000So what is the dance of getting to the bar, becoming a regular?
00:37:24.000And then eventually getting to know these guys.
00:37:27.000So that first night, I'm being loud and boisterous, and they did say that there was one particular member who loved to be the center of attention, and he loved to be surrounded by big dudes.
00:38:17.000So I fire some stupid comedy thing back, and we start going back and forth, because he's already asked the bartenders, who the hell's that guy?
00:39:23.000I walk back over, play a little, you know, you come chase me kind of thing.
00:39:28.000So I go to the bathroom and nobody's in there.
00:39:31.000For the listeners that don't know men's bathrooms and bars, usually at the urinal, there's some kind of box plexiglass with some kind of ads like, hey, this person's coming next week, that stuff.
00:39:40.000So as I'm peeing, I'm looking at the reflection, and I see the door swing open, and I see this jacked dude, Scott.
00:39:48.000It must have made an impression, because in the report, I even say he's wearing a gray shirt with black trim.
00:40:25.000If you bluff, whatever you say today, you might be still in that case a year and a half, two years later.
00:40:33.000It needs to match what you said on day one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out.
00:40:40.000But I said where I'd been around, McAllen, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff, he'd been to all those places because he used to travel the country fighting dogs.
00:40:48.000So if I'd have been bluffing, I'd have been done right there.
00:40:51.000And then from there, we start building relationships.
00:40:54.000Now I'm trying to ingratiate, and I'm getting invited to parties.
00:40:59.000My story was that I was a site survey specialist, and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas.
00:41:06.000And I would look at properties that they want to buy, whether it's residential or mercantile, and pull stuff from the clerk of court and all that kind of stuff.
00:41:16.000As it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes myself.
00:41:21.000And that's when we started getting into, they were doing insurance fraud first with me.
00:41:27.000They would report vehicles stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen price.
00:41:32.000And the story was, since I was based out of McAllen, Texas, I was just using the facts that we were moving vehicles to Mexico in trade for whatever.
00:42:48.000A secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together.
00:44:30.000Like I said, carjackings, we learned of them, certain members extorting people, like the good old mafia days, you know, extorting businesses, home invasions.
00:44:41.000But again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, yeah, we robbed that house, is that enough to charge somebody?
00:45:31.000You could key up and talk to somebody in Japan, and it'd be crystal clear, but if you tried to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever.
00:45:38.000But that's what they used, and that's what I got, and I was mirroring them.
00:45:42.000But, yeah, so you build those relationships, and it depends.
00:45:45.000Each case is different, but I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scott Town.
00:45:52.000It was absolutely scary how similar we were and how tight we were.
00:45:58.000Now, again, he didn't know I was Scott Payne, FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Calloway.
00:46:03.000And he knew, I mean, it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op that evening, an operation, they wouldn't put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, hey, is Scott Town going to be there tonight?
00:46:17.000And even the FBI cover teams and stuff would be like, good, because they knew that he cared enough about me, he'd take a bullet for me and protect me, and vice versa, really.
00:47:20.000Well... In the FBI, probably not a lot, but those cases are well known.
00:47:25.000If something happens like that, somebody goes rogue, like your breach story and all these people selling secrets and getting people killed, yeah.
00:48:08.000And this sucker's like 90 degrees, and I'm like, mother...
00:48:11.000I pulled over, I slammed on the break, well, I mean snow, but come to the stop and I go, what the F is your problem?
00:48:18.000And he's looking at me and he's going, I don't know what he was on, but he was in an evil space, right?
00:48:24.000And I'm looking at him and I'm going, look, if you want to F and fight, we'll stand out in the damn snowstorm right now and we'll go at it.
00:48:31.000I know you think you can whip me, but maybe I can whip you.
00:48:34.000And I saw it wasn't going anywhere and he was getting more and more angry.
00:48:37.000And I just looked at him and I went, he's an animal right now.
00:50:50.000I'm like, I'm not saying I'm a chalk-walking Christian because I'm pretending to be a one-percenter, you know, evil man, but what story have you ever heard of hell where it was good?
00:51:58.000And now we get to the point to where we can, all the predications there, they've done wiretaps, the case team has been doing a wiretap, they know that there's drug deals going on, they're doing surveillance, and now we're to the point to where we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well.
00:52:17.000My story was that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because Some of my peeps got popped because the heat was getting close.
00:52:29.000And all I do now is move stolen equipment down because it's a lot less...
00:52:35.000The way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me.
00:52:39.000And then they would ask, you know, well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you're working with?
00:52:45.000And I go, because I'm the gringo that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through.
00:52:54.000And that was really happening on the border, and I knew that because I was on the border working it.
00:52:58.000Again, real things, you're just putting them into your story.
00:53:02.000But I now let them know it took a long time.
00:54:27.000Pretty much that case, I had a great time.
00:54:29.000Yes, it's violent, and my mentality was changing.
00:54:32.000There is a podcast that's a series that's going to be coming out with the book, and they actually interview one of the task force officers who was over me.
00:54:46.000I want to know what you were thinking.
00:55:28.000So now we get to this point to where we're like, man, let's do this drug protection.
00:55:33.000And the assistant United States attorney was like, hey, if you're going to be at the clubhouse, or do they talk about this at the clubhouse?
00:56:49.000Completely audio recording device somewhere else on me, and I had a transmitter, batteries, so the team could listen in.
00:56:56.000And I went into the clubhouse, like normal, but what you can't see, if you go back and you watch the video, is if I'm facing this way, and I'm shooting the shit with you and this is the bar, and you're laughing at my jokes like always, when I would turn my head to look this way, it's still filming.
00:57:14.000And I didn't see it because I turned my head.
00:57:22.000I do know that when I got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I'm knocking on the door, I'm like, what the, you know, Joe Dog's props, and he goes, hey, hey, we're not ready yet.
00:57:29.000And I'll go to them, why the hell did you tell me to come?
00:57:37.000So I go in, and for the listeners that may not know, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it.
00:57:46.000Several times they wanted me to patch, but I'm with what I said for the task force officer.
01:01:34.000Well, now I hear them scream up and they go, what else do you need for that website?
01:01:38.000So now I know, oh, are they going to Google me?
01:01:40.000Back then there was whosarat.com, things like that.
01:01:44.000So I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence.
01:01:46.000And then I remember my middle name was, my initials were SAC because I'm an idiot and I thought it was funny because SAC is the head of an FBI division and I knew I was never going to be one.
01:03:07.000I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor.
01:03:10.000And I've had people ask me, what does that mean?
01:03:12.000And I go, well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor and they're telling you to walk on it.
01:05:03.000And by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up, and now I've got another adrenaline dump.
01:05:07.000And now I've come in, I'm like, son of a, you know, it's peaks and valleys.
01:05:11.000And everybody that I've taught this to, or spoke about it to, always asked, they're like, man, what would you have said?
01:05:18.000And I'll tell you, I had two responses.
01:05:21.000Because I'm a jovial idiot, my first response, if he would have said, What is this?
01:05:25.000I would have probably said, I don't know, some naked pictures of you old lady to try to buy myself some time, maybe make him quit searching.
01:05:31.000The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday, I would have said, the gig is up, I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose.
01:07:01.000Well, that night, when I went to turn in my equipment at an undisclosed location, probably 3, 4, or 5 in the morning, to the case team, what I found out was this.
01:07:13.000The shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom.
01:07:44.000They're very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever.
01:07:48.000Something that happened in that first interaction made their spidey senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer, say, something's not right.
01:08:01.000And because they had been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door.
01:09:17.000In the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended.
01:09:23.000You know, 9-1-1 hangups, stuff like that.
01:09:26.000But at that point in time, I bought my wife, everybody's pretty familiar now with the burner phone, but I bought my wife a phone that came back to nothing so my undercover phone could call that phone, not violating the operational security.
01:09:40.000That night, Joe, when I called her, I'd always call her every night.
01:09:44.000Again, 5, 7 in the morning, it didn't matter.
01:09:46.000And it might just be she wakes up and says hello, and I go, hey, I just wanted you to know I'm done.
01:10:03.000And she said, I was driving with our daughters at such and such time in McAllen, and she said she got this overwhelming feeling and pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for me.
01:12:11.000So we went back in the kitchen, and we're talking.
01:12:14.000And what we learned, or what I learned, and the case team learned, is...
01:12:18.000When we upped the ante to do that drug deal, and again, a lot of those outlaws were pushing for it, because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for?
01:16:58.000SWAT call-outs, running tactical schools here, case agent first, building cases, putting bad people in jail, undercover.
01:17:07.000But I had stopped taking days off because I didn't want to give management a reason to tell me I couldn't go do an undercover.
01:17:13.000I just work through the weekend or be undercover through the weekend, come back, type up all my stuff, then run my cases.
01:17:20.000Teaching all the tactics and firearms for McAllen and Brownsville agents, resident agents, which is just satellite offices out of San Antonio.
01:17:30.000On SWAT, running firearms for them, stuff like that.
01:17:33.000And I just stopped taking care of myself.
01:22:34.000So I'm in the hotel room doing, before P90 came out, but kind of that thing.
01:22:39.000Burpees, mountain climbers, push-ups, air squats, sit-ups, all this stuff.
01:22:44.000And I came up, and by the way, this is after I hit the inhaler, took a decongestant, antihistamine, three hydroxy cuts, two cups of coffee.
01:22:52.000I don't know if there was anything else in there.
01:22:54.000I later learned that that was basically a cocktail for an anxiety attack.
01:24:39.000We had already created, it was in the creation, our own biker club, that it was approved by the top of the outlaws to be the number one support club in the Northeast.
01:24:48.000And we were going to name it the Righteous Few.
01:24:50.000Scott Town was going to be the president.
01:25:10.000There was some confusion there because one of the arguments is you need to You need to get back in to being a case agent and remember what you're supposed to be doing.
01:25:19.000And I'm like, I never stopped being a case.
01:25:20.000I'm running all these damn cases while all this is going on.
01:27:16.000I'm in Nevada helping put on an undercover school.
01:27:20.000That was one thing that Safeguard said I could go to because they also knew they could do many assessments, watch me, put me around other undercovers, make sure I'm not losing my shit.
01:27:29.000And I can't remember the time difference to Massachusetts, but I've already been drawing up diagrams of all these houses and clubhouses I've been in, and I'm, you know, Sending those to all these SWAT teams all over the Northeast that are going to be hitting all these places.
01:27:45.000And I got back to my hotel room, and I always kept my undercover—well, the case wasn't over technically yet anyway, but I always kept my undercover phones on for at least a month after a case went down, in case you got threatened or anything like that.
01:27:59.000Well, I get back to my room, and my next tail's chirping.
01:29:40.000If you get a threat, a legit threat in Travis County, do you think they've got the money in the budget or they would even spend money in their budget to move you to another town?
01:29:50.000You hit the threat system, they move you somewhere, change a bunch of stuff.
01:29:54.000So in law enforcement, There's always been, you can lock people up, you go to the grocery store, you're with your wife and kids, and you see them.
01:33:39.000I mean, sometimes people go to jail, they pick up some more charges because they did something stupid in jail.
01:33:43.000But I will tell you, talking on that success story thing, most of my career, with the exception of a pedophile, almost everybody I've arrested, I'll sit down with them and I'll say, listen, I'm not saying I think you're a bad person.
01:34:02.000I'm not saying I disagree with what you did.
01:34:12.000Let's don't do that date and game BS where you lie to me for two months and I lie to you for two months and then we figure out we really do kind of like each other.
01:34:32.000Did you ever think, like, while you're talking to people like Scott Town, like, man, if my life had been different, I'd gone down the wrong roads, grew up in a different neighborhood, you would be one of them.
01:35:19.000There was a guy that got picked up for molesting a kid.
01:35:23.000And I didn't know the whole backstory.
01:35:25.000But in the San Antonio division, the agents and stuff knew me, or the SWAT people, they knew I'm the undercover guy.
01:35:31.000And they called me up because while he was in Bexar County in San Antonio, he approached somebody in jail, solicited them to kill the kid, or to find somebody that could kill the kid.
01:35:43.000A lot of these murder-for-hire plans are stupid, but that actually wasn't too bad of a plan.
01:37:30.000But what I found out from the solicitor's office in Bexar County, it was mostly women working it because the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit.
01:37:42.000And Joe, when I went walking in there and they're like, this is Scott.
01:37:55.000And I'm like, I appreciate it, but I'm doing my job.
01:37:59.000What they told me is that guy had walked on four molestation cases before.
01:38:05.000And he also walked on some possession of...
01:38:10.000Somehow he got out of possession of child pornography stuff.
01:38:15.000But when he found out, when they approached him and said I was an undercover and that they got him, he pled guilty to hiring me to kill the kid and pled guilty to the molestation of the kid.
01:38:25.000Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first time, he threw me off guard.
01:39:03.000And then being around that stuff, like I've had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent, they come in, they assign you as the training agent, and they might be working that stuff.
01:39:12.000And I will tell you, for me personally, that's tough to work for me.
01:39:19.000It was before I even had girls, before I even had kids.
01:40:46.000That's the scary thing, because most people aren't aware of it, and this is one of the big conspiracy theories that there's these pedophile rings out there, but they're real.
01:42:09.000But do people go there to do bad things?
01:42:11.000Yep. And it's just like, you could go, I remember them showing me stuff, as the undercover coordinator, I'm over there and I'm looking at stuff, and they're showing me what all the hits they've got right now.
01:42:21.000Just people hitting, and through the databases, you could do knock and talks every freaking day, all day long.
01:43:53.000But down on the border, you tell people, you're like, man, they just, I'm not saying that, I'm not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico and stuff, but a lot of it runs on corruption.
01:44:54.000But the one that was really sick is, so when they would kidnap you, like if you lost a load or they thought you stole something or you didn't pay your quotas, because even as an undocumented special interest alien, whatever you want to call it, illegal alien smuggler, you had to pay quotas to the cartel to smuggle through their territory.
01:46:15.000And here we are at midnight, rolling the Suburban over the bridge with $60,000 to get the sun back.
01:46:21.000Wow. So one of the, we thought was a wives' tale, is that OZL had a, I don't know what the politically correct term is these days, but a midget.
01:47:21.000Now the cartel's pissed at him for bringing heat, and they are beating him.
01:47:24.000I mean, they used to hit him with the clubs, throw kilos, bricks at him, cigarette burns, cigar burns real big, battery cables, stuff like that, threatening him.
01:48:38.000That's a non-conflicted feeling when you get him.
01:48:40.000Good. Yeah, when she called me, when the assistant solicitor called me and said, hey, he pled guilty.
01:48:45.000He got 20 for, I can't remember which was for which, but he got 20 years for, I believe, the most molestation in 10 for hiring me to kill him.
01:48:54.000And then they had to do, the state of Texas was 85%.
01:48:57.000So, yeah, it was going to be a tough ride for him.
01:51:34.000I mean, I would go into, I kind of mentioned it earlier, but a neo-Nazi group, but it's mainly online.
01:51:44.000And here I am for five months reading post after post.
01:51:47.000And if I woke up after six hours of sleep and I was 1,500 posts behind, I'd rewind it and read them all for five months because I didn't want to miss anything, me personally.
01:51:56.000I didn't want to miss anything or anything bad happened because I missed something.
01:52:00.000But after five months and maybe meeting them once or twice, it's all First Amendment protected.
01:52:06.000They weren't doing anything to prepare.
01:52:53.000That's the hard thing about working domestic terrorism is there's no federal domestic terrorism statute.
01:53:00.000So you're trying to see what crimes are they committing, if any, and what can we do to get them off the street if they're planning bad things.
01:53:07.000So how did you infiltrate the neo-Nazi organization?
01:53:11.000Did you actually meet with them in person or was it mostly online?
01:54:51.000After about a week or so of emails back and forth asking me everything, my ethnicity, my height, weight, when was my red pill moment, which they kind of use the matrix theme there.
01:55:01.000So if they say, when were you red-pilled?
01:55:03.000As a Christ follower, it's the same thing as when I was baptized or when I got saved, right?
01:55:08.000So if you're an accelerationist or that level of neo-Nazi and they say, what was your red pill moment?
01:55:13.000You need to know it because it's kind of like the big deal.
01:55:15.000That's when you said, hate all other people.
01:55:20.000So after about a week or so of emails, I get on.
01:55:24.000They tell me to download the Wire app, similar to WhatsApp.
01:55:27.000You can call and talk on it and stuff like that.
01:55:32.000So I do like about an hour and 15 minute interview panel of like four or five people asking me all kinds of stuff.
01:55:40.000I answered best I could, best I prepared for.
01:55:43.000And then they gave me a 24 hour rest period.
01:55:45.000So they said, now that you know what we are, we're going to give you 24 hours to think about if you want to be a part of us.
01:55:51.000And we want 24 hours to think about it.
01:55:53.000But this is what they told me accelerationism was.
01:55:56.000They said, accelerationist, they call it siege culture.
01:56:01.000Kind of barlaying off the book, but they do not believe there's a political solution to save the white race.
01:56:07.000They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or for man-made events, and they want to speed that up.
01:56:13.000The group I was in was calling that Boogaloo, the Boogaloo.
01:56:17.000And everything always ends with an ethno state.
01:56:19.000Now, it's not saying the groups that I was in, they weren't going to take over the entire United States, but the group I was in...
01:56:26.000One section was looking at property and land in the Appalachian Mountains.
01:56:29.000One section of the base was looking at the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
01:56:33.000One section of the base had property in the Pacific Northwest.
01:56:37.000So you get in there, you start learning that ideology.
01:56:43.000But again, in the beginning, I'm just ingratiating.
01:56:46.000I mean, we know they've been saying crazy stuff online, but is it illegal per se?
01:56:50.000No. But are they planning on taking steps to do some bad things?
01:56:54.000And that goes back to that domestic terrorism culture.
01:56:57.000You go in, telegram or whatever, and you've got your Terrence and your Brevix, and they're in there, 4chan, 8chan, and they're posting right before they go and commit all the murders.
01:57:12.000But imagine being in law enforcement and trying to look at all these thousands of posts and trying to figure out, well, which one's actually going to follow through?
02:00:16.000They're upset that white supremacists have taken their stuff and used it.
02:00:19.000But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that Norse mythology, too.
02:00:23.000He had looking for Thor's hammer or whatever, the Holy Grail, biblical, and all this stuff.
02:00:30.000But there's Christian identity, which is making a comeback in the white supremacy realm, not to be confused with Christianity.
02:00:38.000Christian identity is, if you can wrap your mind around this...
02:00:42.000A lot of them have a dual seed line belief.
02:00:46.000So they take the story of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the forbidden tree.
02:00:53.000They take that story and they say, okay, it's still the same except the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent who is a man of color, also known as Satan.
02:01:05.000And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, their offspring is Cain.
02:01:10.000And they are the mud race from then on.
02:02:01.000And the Christian identity was kind of in the Klan belief that I was in for a short moment.
02:02:07.000But the pagan, just like I said that the Christian identity takes the Bible and twists it, then the paganism is taking Norse mythology or if you're an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, and they're twisting it toward their white supremacy.
02:02:22.000And that's not what paganism really is.
02:02:25.000If you know, like again, I've got friends that do it.
02:02:28.000They're upset with white supremacists.
02:02:32.000But then again, in the base, there was a guy who was an Isatri priest, and he led the first blot I ever attended, BLOT, which is kind of like the worship ceremony for pagans.
02:02:43.000I mean, we're down there with our shirts off, wiping blood on our chest, drinking mead, as if we're Vikings, and then praying to our gods.
02:02:51.000And they would take wood, carve the wood, and they would carve runes and white supremacy symbols in it, and we would cut ourselves and bleed.
02:03:00.000On the runes and then set that on fire and pray until the fire went out.
02:03:37.000This is an undercover video where they interviewed this lady and they were asking her questions and she didn't know she was being recorded.
02:04:27.000I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but I'd say thousands.
02:04:29.000Because a lot of times, if you're in that community and you're looking, let's say this is a telegram channel over here, and it's Terror Wave or whatever it is before it was taken down, and you see all these monikers, like I was Pell Horse in the base.
02:04:44.000And then you see Pestilence, and you see TMB, the Militant Buddhist, and you see Helter Skelter, and you say, well, you might go to another group.
02:05:58.000I mean, these kids, you can go on and if you got your mic on, you might get your butt handed to you by an 11-year-old kid who's telling you to clear the hard corner and slice the pie.
02:06:28.000But I was impressed with how safe they were, the two guys running it, TMB and Pestilence, because that was a concern for me.
02:06:34.000If you could see the aerial footage, when we first go out there and they're shooting, I'm way back behind them because I'm like, I don't know how these people are with guns.
02:06:42.000I've seen plenty of bad shooters do some stupid things on the line.
02:06:48.000So I start gaining their trust, do a couple of blots, hikes, drinking, rucking, whatever.
02:06:57.000And then it starts, we're finding out a little bit more, not necessarily anything criminal, except for the fact that there was a Canadian who was part of their, basically, it would be like their National Guard, but he got doxed.
02:07:14.000And for the listeners that don't know, doxing basically is being outed.
02:07:18.000So a lot of these accelerationist groups are big on...
02:08:10.000He was up there, and he vetted him face-to-face and said he's good to go.
02:08:13.000So after about a week to two weeks, tops.
02:08:16.000In the main chat group, this dude bails.
02:08:19.000And it turns out that he was a journalist in Canada who went on his own and met Patrick Matthews and infiltrated, at least to a certain degree, the base.
02:08:31.000And then he puts out in a big news article up there that this guy is Patrick Matthews.
02:08:39.000RCMP comes to his house, takes his guns, he gets booted from the National Guard thing, loses his job, his parents don't like him anymore, and they lose him.
02:08:49.000They find his truck near the border of the United States.
02:09:20.000And there's an unbelievable case agent.
02:09:22.000We had several on the case, but Nate Plew was running the case out of Seattle because the leader of the base had property in Seattle's territory.
02:09:36.000But there was a case agent named Rasheed who's out of Baltimore, and he's running for the guys there.
02:09:42.000Rasheed was able to figure out by some unbelievable phone when— We're all looking for him.
02:11:43.000In the back of one of the members' trucks, they had gone not far away to a house that had three rams, and they all dressed up, and I'll paint the picture for you, because the clothing, the camouflage pattern that the base wore was Flechtarn, because Flechtarn pattern is German.
02:13:50.000If y'all can hear me, because when I was out in the field, I'm covered.
02:13:54.000So for that four-day hate camp, they were covering me 24-7, running shifts, they being law enforcement.
02:14:03.000And I go and I go, hey, if y'all can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go down here and sacrifice this animal.
02:14:10.000And I'm running it through my brain, and I know they said they stole it, but I can't come up with a good enough reason to stop this right now.
02:14:20.000If you guys don't want me to do this, you've got to send me a sign and let me know.
02:14:25.000And I waited, and I waited, and it was crickets.
02:14:28.000And then I said, okay, I guess I'm going down to the woods.
02:14:51.000And Eisen, who's leading the blot, is talking about we're going to be starting the wild hunt.
02:14:56.000In Norse mythology, the wild hunt is basically Odin and a bunch of other gods going out in the middle of the night and whipping the crap out of every other god that they didn't like or whatever.
02:15:04.000In the twisted version of the base, starting the wild hunt was going to start with the sacrifice of this goat, which he named Gar.
02:15:12.000His middle name was Garfield, named after his grandfather.
02:15:15.000To show love to the goat, he named it Gar, after his grandfather.
02:15:19.000Okay. So he says, once we do the sacrifice, and it goes to Valhalla, that the wild hunt will start, but the wild hunt was going to be cleansing the world of non-whites.
02:15:35.000So the goat was the start of this whole...
02:15:43.000But again, they're twisting it from white supremacy beliefs.
02:15:47.000So he's got this machete-type object, and I'm at the back of the goat, and he's going through it.
02:15:52.000He says this Odin prayer, and he didn't lead the blot near as good as the actual Asatru priest that did it before, but he's trying.
02:16:02.000And he's going back with this machete, and I'm holding the back of the goat, and somebody's holding the front of the goat.
02:16:10.000He's coming down, he's practicing, practicing, and he's a pretty stocky kid.
02:16:14.000And finally somebody says, just do it.
02:16:16.000Man, he rears back with all of his strength and comes down right on the back of the neck of the goat.
02:16:22.000I don't even know if it broke a hair, Joe.
02:16:25.000I don't know if it's because the back strap of the goat was so thick or the blade was dull, but when he hit it, all you heard was, And for that split second, I'm holding the back of the goat, and I go, Oh, man, I just saw blood.
02:16:37.000I just pictured something bad happening.
02:16:40.000And then somebody says, has anybody got a gun?
02:16:42.000Do you hear, do it again, do it again.
02:16:44.000It might take two swings, and you hear, does anybody got a gun?
02:16:46.000Well, I told you, we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down.
02:16:49.000Well, this one cat, who was probably the least qualified person to be carrying a firearm anywhere within miles of us, said, yeah, I got mine.
02:16:59.000And we were like, what are you doing with your gun?
02:17:01.000So, TMB takes the gun, hands it to Eisen.
02:17:06.000Eisen, we're still all on our knees in a circle around the goat for this sacrifice.
02:17:10.000Eisen points the gun at the goat, goat's head, and then turns the opposite way.
02:19:47.000Friday we were training again, and by Saturday night we did a bunch more training through the day, like, you know, navigating the land, living off the land, building bunkers and stuff like that.
02:20:03.000And then it's time to shoot some more for the propaganda video.
02:20:07.000So we go back down in the woods, and now we're doing a bonfire at the holy spot, and we are burning American flags.
02:20:17.000And we're burning Holy Bibles while everybody's yelling, F your Jewish God, death to America, stuff like that.
02:20:26.000And I remember the one kid that was pretty clumsy.
02:20:29.000He almost fell in the fire trying to light the flag on fire.
02:20:32.000And in the video, you can see me grab the other side.
02:20:36.000Part of me wanted to just let him fall.
02:20:39.000I don't know if he went up in flames or not, but a little Darwinism.
02:22:53.000By the way, if you want to blow everybody up, y'all just let Scotty know and I'll be real still right now.
02:22:57.000But, yeah, so after that week, I kind of said, I got a pretty dumb sense of humor, but I got back to the office and I said, man, I've been doing undercover work off and on since 1996.
02:23:08.000And I said, I know my skill set takes me to different places than other people.
02:23:11.000I said, but I have never had to burn Bibles.
02:24:02.000So when I turned 42 years later in real life and I'm in wherever I was at, McAllen or Tennessee, I'm like, yeah, my other party was a little better.
02:24:11.000I'm like, you know, the outlaws party was...
02:24:14.000I mean, thank you guys for throwing me a party, but it's not really nothing compared to when I turned 42 years ago.
02:24:19.000But for the base, I had to hustle and get in there fast because we were getting calls from world working partners because, again, this is online.
02:24:28.000You hop in those groups, there's people from South Africa, Australia, UK, Norway.
02:24:37.000Now, they may not be able to get weapons like we got weapons, but they were even planning on flying into the States and doing some hate crimes.
02:24:43.000Well, I'm sure we'd be doing hate crimes, but a hate camp.
02:25:36.000I don't even know if Gab's still around, but you could go into Gab and there would be a group called 14 Words.
02:25:40.000Well, that's the 14 words coined by David Lane.
02:25:43.000It is famous in the white supremacy culture.
02:25:46.000It says something to the effect I don't have it memorized anymore.
02:25:49.000As I say a lot of times when I'm speaking, I go, hey, just so you guys know, I appreciate the questions, but since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore.
02:26:34.000So there's definitely been some wacky things.
02:26:37.000I mean, on the case agent side, that stuff on the border was pretty wacky.
02:26:40.000But undercover-wise, these guys, I mean, they were...
02:26:46.000I don't know about calling them wacky, but just, they were planning it.
02:26:49.000I mean, what we did is we uncovered violent, we uncovered several murder plots.
02:26:53.000They had found a couple that they believed were an Antifa couple, a couple of counties over in Georgia, and we went and cased the place.
02:27:03.000The idea was, it started, it took a while to come to fruition because it changed a couple of times, but essentially what was agreed upon is that we were all going to beat the Georgia cell.
02:27:15.000When I say cell, it's C-E-L-L, which by the way, it's probably a good time to say, the base in Arabic is Al-Qaeda.
02:27:26.000So Al-Qaeda wanted to have three to five man cells, C-E-L-L, I know I got a redneck accent, cells all over the world waiting on that D-Day call.
02:27:37.000Well, the base, which stands for Al-Qaeda, wanted three to five man cells all over the world waiting for the Boogaloo.
02:27:44.000Wow. You've got kids, 21-year-old, has no car, has no job, but has an arsenal in his closet.
02:27:54.000He's wearing plate carriers or the same plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears.
02:28:00.000And however they're getting their money, either from parents or whatever they're doing, they are building their kit for what they refer to as the day, the set-off of the race war.
02:28:23.000If you're hiring me to kill somebody, I want to make sure that I got the contract so you're not out trying to find somebody else to kill this person.
02:28:29.000So we were riding out there and Helter had not seen the house yet.
02:28:36.000And Helter, I'll tell you the plan in a second.
02:28:39.000Helter, we're riding out there and Helter goes, hey, If you don't mind, man, I'd really like to pop my cherry on this one.
02:28:47.000Well, you and I hear pop my cherry, it probably means something different.
02:28:51.000Because I was like, what are you talking about?
02:28:53.000And then Luke, TMB, told me, he goes, I think he actually wants to participate in the killing.
02:28:59.000And he said, man, I've been waiting for this for two years.
02:29:01.000He goes, I actually want to put one of the bullets in their head.
02:29:04.000And I said, well, it's a.22,.25, whatever, with the silencer on it.
02:31:08.000So, we've got that murder plot going on, and then you have the Canadian guy and his cell up in, actually, it would have been Can't Go Back, which is Brian Limley.
02:31:20.000They had a cell up in the Maryland area.
02:31:23.000And I went up, and I trained with them, and they, at that point in time, so it would have been coming up to January of 2020, there was going to be a huge Second Amendment rally in Virginia because the governor at the time was pretty liberal, did not like guns, and was going to be making a lot of—was trying to crack down on guns, Second Amendment.
02:31:45.000So the idea of those base members was— What if that's the set-off of the Boogaloo?
02:31:50.000What if, while all those people are there, you've got three percenters, which is not illegal, you've got militia, which is not illegal, but you've got people wanting to do nefarious things, most likely.
02:33:32.000So then I went, and on a Friday, I flew into Baltimore, met the case team, drove up Saturday to Delaware, trained all day with those guys, helped get more information that everybody wanted, came back late to Baltimore, flew to Atlanta, drove up to...
02:33:54.000Try to close the deal with the Georgia crew.
02:33:57.000And I think I got home Monday for a couple of hours.
02:34:25.000I said, I swear if that damn brake caliber froze again, I said, let me pull over.
02:34:30.000Well, I pulled over to the spot SWAT team wanted me to, and then we did a ruse.
02:34:34.000I was around the back of the truck looking, and another truck pulls up.
02:34:37.000I'm like, oh my gosh, man, I can't believe you're here.
02:34:39.000And then I jump in that truck, and then the SWAT team and the Bearcats rolling over the hill, and they took him without incident.
02:34:45.000Helter Skelter and Pestilence got picked up without incident.
02:34:48.000We kept all that quiet on Wednesday, because come Thursday morning, SWAT teams from Washington Field Office and Baltimore Field Office were going to be hitting that crew, so we wanted to keep it quiet.
02:35:20.000Somewhere around 515, the leader of the base, he went by the monikers Norman Spears and Roman Wolf.
02:35:26.000His real name is Ronaldo Nazaro, so you can let this sink in.
02:35:30.000Here's an American citizen born in America, went to Villanova, was in the Army, to my understanding, Army, Intel, and he was contracted at some point for some job in the Department of Justice.
02:35:44.000Now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia.
02:35:48.000I guess he supposedly teaches English.
02:35:50.000They tried to say the base didn't have a leader.
02:38:04.000But one day, what she said is, she said, look, she just had to give it up to God.
02:38:09.000She's like, I can sit here and worry every day, and I'm going to kill myself worrying about it, but I essentially don't have control.
02:38:17.000I've got to pray that you're good at what you do, and if it's your time to go, he can take me any time he wants.
02:38:25.000But finishing the base case is the first time, like an idiot, I should have realized it, but I realized after an undercover, I have to decompress.
02:38:33.000I have to kind of, okay, all right, I get my mind, all right, that's done, okay?
02:41:10.000So she's like, yeah, I'm into torture.
02:41:12.000She goes, you know that you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it up a man's penis and rip it back out and then pour salt in the penis.
02:41:20.000Well, now the guys in the back of the truck are going, oh my gosh.
02:41:23.000What she didn't know was two weeks prior to that, I had my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my first lumbar fusion.
02:41:31.000They messed up my privates and they had to dry cath me.
02:41:34.000So when she's talking about this hanger going in and out, I'm kind of feeling.
02:41:37.000I'm like, I think I know what is similar to that.
02:41:43.000So she says that and then she says, yeah, you can take a PVC pipe and you can run it up somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up it and rip it out.
02:41:52.000And we pull up to a red light and I lean over and I go, why are you so angry?
02:41:58.000I said, are you sure you don't want to kill these people?
02:42:00.000She's like, oh, no, I'm too well known.
02:42:02.000But if you need somebody tortured, I can do it.
02:42:04.000Then on the next ride, or riding to the next place, she says that her husband went on a cocaine bender, and she told him never to do that again.
02:45:48.000No offense to the other peers of mine that have done books or people that have done it before me, but if I click on it and I hear, there I was in the basement.