The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2314 - Hal Puthoff

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast.

00:00:03.000 Check it out.

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day.

00:00:07.000 Joe Rogan Podcast by night.

00:00:08.000 All day.

00:00:11.000 All right.

00:00:13.000 Al.

00:00:13.000 Hey.

00:00:14.000 What's happening?

00:00:15.000 Oh, a lot's happening.

00:00:16.000 A lot.

00:00:17.000 Thank you so much for being here.

00:00:19.000 I'm very excited to talk to you.

00:00:21.000 I've been thinking about nothing but that since that dinner that we had a few months ago.

00:00:26.000 Oh, yes.

00:00:27.000 I've been thinking about it a lot.

00:00:28.000 You told me a lot of crazy stuff.

00:00:31.000 Yeah, well, it just seems like that's been my thing in life, is get involved in the crazy stuff no matter where it comes from.

00:00:39.000 When did that start?

00:00:40.000 When did you start getting involved in the crazy stuff?

00:00:42.000 Well, actually, I began early on.

00:00:45.000 I was a ham radio operator as a teenager, and I went to vocational school.

00:00:50.000 I didn't think I'd ever go to college or whatever, but I got all involved in learning about...

00:00:57.000 Radio transmission and all that kind of stuff.

00:01:01.000 So I finally said, okay, I'm going to go to college and really concentrate on electrical engineering and physics and all that kind of stuff.

00:01:10.000 But the weird stuff actually began kind of by absolute accident.

00:01:17.000 At the time, I was involved at Stanford University, getting my PhD.

00:01:24.000 I was just doing cool things.

00:01:26.000 I'd invented a broadly tunable infrared laser, one of the first of its kind, even got a patent as a graduate student, and co-authored with my thesis advisor a textbook, graduate-level textbook,

00:01:44.000 Fundamentals of Quantum Electronics, published in English, French, Russian, and Chinese.

00:01:48.000 So I was on a cool roll, just doing the normal physics kinds of things.

00:01:54.000 But interestingly enough, once I was there writing a graduate-level textbook, I realized, you know, there's something I don't know.

00:02:03.000 And that is, what about consciousness?

00:02:07.000 What about living things?

00:02:08.000 I mean, is it still just atoms and molecules all the way down?

00:02:11.000 We just don't know about it?

00:02:13.000 Or are there some additional fields or whatever?

00:02:16.000 So it turned out I came across some publications by a polygraph expert who taught polygraph to the CIA and FBI and so on.

00:02:28.000 And one day on a lark, he connected his polygraph up to his plants and he saw signals coming out that looked like what he see out of people and then he decided to threaten the plant like

00:02:40.000 a person and he got a big response.

00:02:42.000 And so he then went on to connect up a couple of plants to polygraphs

00:02:48.000 And he would find that if he affected one, the other one would respond.

00:02:51.000 So I thought, okay, well, maybe this is some new fields that we don't include in our physics.

00:02:56.000 So I came up with what, for me, was just a pure physics experiment.

00:03:01.000 I was going to grow some algae culture, split it up, put half of it at a laser-linked site far away, and zap the local culture and see if it responded, and I could measure velocity propagation and so on.

00:03:13.000 So I sent that off to this polygraph guy, Cleve Baxter is his name.

00:03:18.000 And so he said, well, that'd be a cool experiment.

00:03:21.000 Well, here's one of these things where your life takes a left-hand turn, totally at random.

00:03:27.000 He goes to a cocktail party in New York City.

00:03:30.000 And there he runs into Ingo Swann, who turned out to be so-called psychic, famous artist, but a fellow that did remote viewing, so-called.

00:03:43.000 And so he invited him over to his lab and said, see if he could affect the plants and so on.

00:03:49.000 While he was there, he saw my write-up about the experiment I proposed, which for me is just a pure physics experiment.

00:03:59.000 And so he then wrote me a letter and said, well, if you're interested in the borderline between animate and inanimate physics, why deal with algae culture?

00:04:08.000 They can't tell you anything.

00:04:09.000 You should be dealing with somebody like me.

00:04:12.000 Well, I mean, I couldn't care.

00:04:14.000 Less about dealing with, quote, a psychic or whatever.

00:04:17.000 But attached to his letter, he had a big report that had been generated at City College in New York where he'd done some experiments where he would raise and lower the temperatures of sensitive temperature measuring devices across the lab.

00:04:33.000 And so I read that and I said, well, that's...

00:04:36.000 That's pretty interesting.

00:04:37.000 So just on a lark, by this time I headed over to Stanford Research Institute to do my laser work.

00:04:46.000 So anyway, I invited him for a weekend just to see what else he could do. 0.94

00:04:50.000 And of course I talked to all my physics colleagues and said, oh my god, these guys are all frauds and charlatans. 0.87

00:04:55.000 You better know what you're doing.

00:04:58.000 Well, it turns out that I had a great experiment for him because we had an experiment set up at Stanford.

00:05:05.000 That was a very sensitive quantum chip inside of electrical shielding, inside of magnetic shielding, inside of superconducting shielding, completely acoustically isolated from the environment.

00:05:18.000 No way anything on the outside could affect that little chip.

00:05:23.000 They were only looking for quarks and stuff like that.

00:05:27.000 So anyway, I brought him over to the lab.

00:05:28.000 I said, remember that thing you did with the thermistors there at City College in New York?

00:05:33.000 Well, this is sort of that.

00:05:35.000 Like that on steroids. 0.89

00:05:37.000 And so he said, okay, well, I'll see what I can do.

00:05:40.000 Well, it turned out he generated all kinds of signals in that little quantum chip.

00:05:46.000 And, of course, a graduate student whose life depended on this not being, you know, affected by anything outside said, well, maybe there's some bubbles in the hydrogen line or something, something.

00:05:58.000 But no, he was able to do it.

00:06:00.000 But what was most interesting...

00:06:02.000 And I asked him, well, how did you know what to do?

00:06:04.000 He said, well, I didn't know what to do, so I just looked inside.

00:06:08.000 Looked inside through all this shielding.

00:06:11.000 And he drew a diagram of what was inside there that had never been published.

00:06:15.000 And he said, well, this is when I put my attention on it.

00:06:18.000 That just happened by accident.

00:06:21.000 So he drew an accurate diagram of all the shielding that you had around this equipment.

00:06:27.000 And the little quantum chip and its circuitry.

00:06:30.000 Deep inside.

00:06:31.000 And when you say he was able to affect something, what in particular was he able to affect?

00:06:36.000 Well, in general, there was a big oscillating signal coming out of the thing that ran about 30 seconds or so.

00:06:44.000 And then when he affected it, it just stopped oscillating.

00:06:48.000 And then he said, do you want me to do something else?

00:06:52.000 And then he made it oscillate fast.

00:06:54.000 And that's when the graduate students sort of went berserko.

00:06:59.000 And so he said, wait, let me see what's wrong here.

00:07:02.000 And he couldn't find anything wrong.

00:07:04.000 So he said, well, I'm sure that was just some kind of coincidental glitch.

00:07:08.000 And he did it again.

00:07:10.000 So he's doing it exactly when he's saying he's going to do it.

00:07:13.000 Exactly when he says he's going to do it.

00:07:15.000 But anyway, the reason I'm trying to get around to answering your question was that I then wrote this up and circulated around to other physicists, and pretty soon the CIA come landing on my doorstep and said, oh, have we been looking for you?

00:07:32.000 And I said, you know, why?

00:07:34.000 Well, they looked in my background.

00:07:36.000 They saw that I had between my...

00:07:39.000 Master's degree and PhD.

00:07:40.000 I'd been a naval intelligence officer at the National Security Agency.

00:07:45.000 I had lots of high-level clearances.

00:07:49.000 And he said, you know, we have a problem.

00:07:52.000 And they plopped a big report down on the desk about like that and said, look, the Russians have been spending millions of dollars at their best institutes trying to use ESP for espionage purposes.

00:08:08.000 We don't know how to evaluate it.

00:08:10.000 I mean, no scientist in America even believes there is such a thing.

00:08:14.000 And yet you did this experiment, and it looked like this guy could actually get inside this device and describe it and affect it.

00:08:23.000 And here you're at SRI.

00:08:25.000 We have lots of black projects here anyway. 1.00

00:08:27.000 So we'd like to check him out.

00:08:31.000 Can you bring him back and let us come and do some experiments with him?

00:08:35.000 By the way, we're hoping that we'll find this is just all BS, and we don't have to think about it, and that'll be the end of that.

00:08:42.000 So anyway, brought him back.

00:08:45.000 They spent a day hiding things in the boxes and envelopes, and he would describe what was inside.

00:08:51.000 And they were totally blown away, so they said, okay, we would like to give you a little project here, I don't know, 50 or 60K, and see what else he can do.

00:09:01.000 So anyway, that's how I got started on doing, quote, weird stuff.

00:09:05.000 And so, as many would know, that project ended up being very productive, and it went over.

00:09:14.000 More than 20 years and so on, highly classified level.

00:09:18.000 Well, maybe we'll get to that separately because I think the UAP stuff is kind of more interesting to start with.

00:09:25.000 But anyway, that's how I got started in weird physics, you might call it.

00:09:31.000 And then sort of like in Ghostbusters, well, if you got some...

00:09:36.000 Difficult problem.

00:09:36.000 Who are you going to call?

00:09:38.000 There I am.

00:09:41.000 So what other things did you do with Ingo?

00:09:44.000 So he was able to affect the oscillations.

00:09:47.000 Able to affect the oscillations.

00:09:49.000 So he had some sort of an ability.

00:09:51.000 Did he describe, first of all, like what this ability was, how he perceived it?

00:09:58.000 He said that for some reason, starting when he was a little kid, he would...

00:10:04.000 You know, try to focus on some news item or whatever.

00:10:08.000 And he'd suddenly get some kind of picture in his mind about what was going on.

00:10:12.000 And later he would check it out and it turned out to be correct.

00:10:15.000 So he just said, you know, I just...

00:10:17.000 So he stumbled upon remote viewing.

00:10:20.000 Right.

00:10:21.000 But remote viewing and then being able to interact with the equipment and change the oscillation seems very different, right?

00:10:28.000 It is very different.

00:10:31.000 And as we might discuss later, I've got some ideas about, you know, what some of the quantum mechanisms might be involved in that.

00:10:38.000 But anyway, as far as the CIA was concerned, they were most interested in this ability to see through shielding.

00:10:45.000 And they said, does that mean if we have all kinds of classified documents and a superconducting safe, the Russians might be able to, you know, reach in and see them?

00:10:56.000 And so that's what they were most worried about.

00:10:59.000 And so, anyway...

00:11:01.000 Did you find that to be true?

00:11:04.000 That started a whole program when we found out that it was true, that we started out doing what you would think, you know, just hiding things in the next room and can you describe them and stuff like that.

00:11:18.000 But then he got bored.

00:11:22.000 He says, well, if you want to know what's in the next room, go look.

00:11:25.000 If you want to know what's in the envelope or the box, open it up.

00:11:28.000 So he said, well, you know, what do you have in mind?

00:11:32.000 He said, well, just send somebody out into the San Francisco Bay Area and I'll describe where they are.

00:11:38.000 And so that's how what we call remote viewing program got started.

00:11:43.000 We started doing experiments, which I got to say, I resisted this stuff every inch along the way because as a physicist, I had no idea how this could possibly be.

00:11:56.000 But nonetheless...

00:11:57.000 We began working with him.

00:12:00.000 Our lab director, who's always concerned about was there some kind of hoax between the subjects and the experimenters, he'd make up a long list and store them in his safe, and we'd go get an envelope out of the safe,

00:12:15.000 leave SRI, drive to wherever the envelope said, and he would give a description.

00:12:20.000 That's how that whole program got started.

00:12:23.000 When you are experiencing this and you're initially very skeptical and you start seeing these results, what kind of a shift does that have in your worldview?

00:12:35.000 It was very challenging, I've got to say.

00:12:38.000 Because as a physicist and as a quantum physicist where I've written equations for all kinds of interactions, I had no clue how anything like this could possibly be.

00:12:50.000 And I'll be honest, I still don't really have a clue about exactly what's going on other than consciousness seems to be expandable out into the environment in a way that we don't usually consider could possibly be the case.

00:13:08.000 There are people who get into meditation and all that kind of stuff, but none of that was in my background, so I just found this a challenge.

00:13:19.000 It was only that the CIA was paying us to look into this that I kept going the next step, resisting every inch along the way.

00:13:28.000 To give you an example, along the way, there was a little bit of PR in the newsprint, newspapers about our experiments.

00:13:42.000 So we began getting people calling in and saying, well, I have some of that ability too and whatever.

00:13:49.000 And so one of the people that came along that way was Pat Price.

00:13:53.000 He was ex-Police Commissioner Burbank.

00:13:59.000 And he said, you know, when we were solving crimes, I would get an image of where the culprit might be hiding.

00:14:06.000 And it would turn out to be correct.

00:14:07.000 So maybe I have some of this ability.

00:14:09.000 Well, I had no reason to necessarily believe that.

00:14:12.000 But it turned out that right at that moment, we were being challenged by the CIA to...

00:14:18.000 Prove this wasn't just some kind of a hoax between the experimenters and the subjects.

00:14:23.000 And so they came up with coordinates, because as it turns out, when we sent people out to a site and Ingo or somebody else had to describe it, they would describe not only the site as being observed by the outbound person,

00:14:39.000 but also what was inside the building and what was on top of the building.

00:14:42.000 So we suddenly realized...

00:14:44.000 Okay, that person is just a beacon.

00:14:46.000 It's not that he's sending something back telepathically.

00:14:48.000 So once we realized that, Ingo Swann, in his never-ending challenge, said, well, just give me coordinates.

00:14:58.000 Latitude and longitude and degrees, minutes, and seconds.

00:15:01.000 And I'll look wherever that is and tell you what I find.

00:15:06.000 So, in fact...

00:15:08.000 Okay, I found that hard to believe also.

00:15:11.000 But we did a lot of experiments and started targeting on things.

00:15:15.000 Anyway, Pat Price shows up.

00:15:17.000 We do some local experiments, and he's doing very well as well.

00:15:22.000 And so, again, our CIA contract monitors were worried that there's some kind of, you know, trickery and so on.

00:15:29.000 So they came up with coordinates of what turns out to be right next to Sugar Grove facility, which is a highly classified NSA facility picking up Soviet satellite transmissions.

00:15:44.000 So I just, I had no idea what it was.

00:15:46.000 I mean, we always kept ourselves blind to what the target was, so no one could say we just gave him the data.

00:15:52.000 So Pat Price decided to, you know, to follow our instructions and go to those coordinates and say what he says.

00:16:01.000 And so he describes this place.

00:16:04.000 But as part of that, what he does is he says that he merged his...

00:16:11.000 Mind, whatever you want to say, into a safe and a whole bunch of words popped up into his mind.

00:16:18.000 So he gave this whole list of words.

00:16:21.000 Okay, fine.

00:16:22.000 So he wrote them all down, sent them off.

00:16:24.000 Pretty soon the entire law enforcement apparatus of the country landed on us and said, how'd you get this information?

00:16:32.000 This is highly classified project titles.

00:16:34.000 Do you have a source inside?

00:16:37.000 No, we were just doing this experiment.

00:16:40.000 That's what he got.

00:16:41.000 And so eventually, 20 years later, you can find the paper that was published by the CIA about what a deal this was.

00:16:50.000 And so anyway, at that time, we were at a point where we were about ready to get the next year's contract.

00:16:57.000 And we had a deputy director, John McMahon, said, OK, well, let's not waste it on our sides, for God's sake.

00:17:08.000 Do a Soviet site. 0.97

00:17:10.000 And so they gave us coordinates of a Soviet site.

00:17:15.000 Turned out to be an R&D facility at Semi-Palatinsk in the Soviet Union.

00:17:21.000 And so we targeted Price on that.

00:17:25.000 He turned out to be a really good remote viewer, along with English Swan.

00:17:28.000 And he described this giant crane that rolled over the top of a building.

00:17:36.000 I mean, it sounded like science fiction.

00:17:38.000 I've got some examples here of the drawings of that.

00:17:43.000 And so it turned out that from satellite imagery, what he drew was correct.

00:17:51.000 And so that finally started, okay, this stuff is real.

00:17:56.000 It can be used.

00:17:59.000 Let's go to work with it.

00:18:01.000 So that's what started the whole, you might say, Espionage-oriented SRI program on remote viewing.

00:18:10.000 It went for, I don't know, like 23 years or so on.

00:18:13.000 What are the meetings like when you're explaining this to the CIA and you're showing them results and you've got these, you know, hard-nosed individuals who are pretty rational trying to figure out what you're saying?

00:18:28.000 This episode is brought to you by Visible.

00:18:30.000 Now you know I tend to go down a lot of rabbit holes.

00:18:34.000 I want to know everything about everything.

00:18:36.000 And if you're like that, you need wireless that can keep up.

00:18:40.000 Visible is wireless that lets you live in the know.

00:18:44.000 It's the ultimate wireless hack.

00:18:45.000 You get unlimited data and hotspot, so you're connected on the go.

00:18:50.000 Plus, Visible is powered by Verizon's 5G network, meaning fast speeds and great coverage.

00:18:56.000 And with the new Visible Plus Pro plan, you get premium wireless without the premium cost.

00:19:01.000 And the best part, it's all digital, no stores.

00:19:04.000 You can switch to Visible right from your phone.

00:19:06.000 It only takes about 15 minutes.

00:19:08.000 And then you manage your plan in the app.

00:19:11.000 Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know?

00:19:14.000 Make the switch at Visible.com slash Rogan.

00:19:18.000 Plans start at $25 a month.

00:19:19.000 For the best features, get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for $45 a month.

00:19:25.000 Terms apply.

00:19:26.000 See Visible.com for plan features and network management details.

00:19:30.000 There are really basically two levels of response.

00:19:33.000 For example, some of the early work when we went to brief, we had 10 or 12 people and we're talking about the work.

00:19:41.000 Pretty soon a guy in the back of the room jumps up and he says, I know what this is.

00:19:45.000 This is some kind of PSYOP test of our gullibility and I want you to know whoever's putting this out, I'm not buying it.

00:19:53.000 And he stormed out of the room.

00:19:54.000 So that was one response.

00:19:56.000 But there's a second response we got which turned out to be interesting.

00:20:01.000 At a certain point after we had done a number of years of successful work in doing the remote viewing.

00:20:09.000 We had to keep briefing higher and higher, as you can imagine.

00:20:13.000 I hated briefing higher because if you brief a high-level guy and he says, oh, come on, this is nonsense, this is BS, that's the end of your programs.

00:20:23.000 So I got it up to a point where, for example, I briefed Bill Casey, who was director of CIA under Reagan, and we had 45 minutes with him.

00:20:35.000 And so I went through stuff like I've been describing for 45 minutes.

00:20:40.000 He got so entranced with it that he dismissed the rest of his afternoon calendar, and we spent five hours briefing him on that.

00:20:50.000 So there was this funny thing where a certain level of people would just, oh, this can't be.

00:20:56.000 And then really high-level people seemed to be...

00:21:01.000 More open to it.

00:21:02.000 So actually we came up with a hypothesis and that is, okay, people who make it to the top of the food chain might be people who at some level inside themselves are, you know, they're always making decisions based on insufficient information and they end up making the right decision.

00:21:17.000 That's how they got to where they are.

00:21:18.000 So maybe this is some aspect that's at least at the unconscious level happening.

00:21:26.000 All the time.

00:21:27.000 Well, that finally got put to a test because there were some parapsychologists who did some experiments with a meeting of CEOs of, I think it was 67 CEOs of major corporations and had them try to guess the numbers that were going to be generated on the computer the next day.

00:21:46.000 And so they did that.

00:21:48.000 And it turned out that those who scored...

00:21:51.000 Quite positively, significantly so.

00:21:54.000 When we interviewed them, it turned out they were the people who had the businesses that were really doing well.

00:22:00.000 And the people who scored poorly had businesses that were kind of failing.

00:22:05.000 So these investigators would ask them, well, you know, what are you using?

00:22:12.000 Do you use ESP or something?

00:22:14.000 Do you have some glint of the future?

00:22:15.000 He said, no, no, no, no.

00:22:16.000 I don't believe any of that nonsense.

00:22:18.000 But...

00:22:19.000 I realize that when I trust my gut instinct, I'm usually right.

00:22:24.000 So anyway, that sort of leads to the idea that this is a broadly available phenomenon.

00:22:34.000 Do you think this is an emerging aspect of human consciousness or do you think that this is something that maybe we developed a long time ago but lost because of communication, because of the written word,

00:22:49.000 because of our ability to express ourselves, that we stopped communicating with the mind?

00:22:55.000 I think your second...

00:22:58.000 Interpretation is the correct one because probably when you're out in the jungle and there's a tiger coming down the trail that you don't know about quite, it would be a thing that could really help you exist and survive.

00:23:12.000 But once we get into language and technology and so on, that sort of...

00:23:18.000 Nonetheless, we found...

00:23:20.000 I'll tell you what was the most mind-boggling thing in the whole program.

00:23:27.000 Was the following.

00:23:29.000 We had a few people who did really well.

00:23:32.000 So, of course, CIA wanted to know, well, we'd like to find people in CIA who could do this, so give us a full medical roundup of these people.

00:23:44.000 So we got a full medical, including seven-layer brain scans.

00:23:50.000 And they came back and said, well, these are just normal people.

00:23:54.000 So, oh, well, maybe it's psychological or neurological or whatever.

00:23:59.000 So they did all those experiments.

00:24:02.000 And they said, these are just normal people.

00:24:05.000 So we wondered, well, does that mean that normal people could do this even if they didn't know about it?

00:24:11.000 So about that time, we said, okay, well, let's just bring in some people from SRI labs who never thought about...

00:24:22.000 ESP, never thought about any of this stuff.

00:24:25.000 So I remember we had a woman, Hella Hammond, and we asked her to come volunteer for an experiment.

00:24:33.000 She said, what kind of experiment?

00:24:34.000 She said, well, it's sort of like an ESP experiment.

00:24:37.000 She said, give me a break. 0.98

00:24:39.000 I don't believe in that stuff.

00:24:40.000 She said, okay, but do it anyway.

00:24:43.000 And so one of the first experiments we did with her, and we have a wonderful diagram of what she did.

00:24:52.000 We sent somebody out by our usual random protocol to an overpass over a freeway that's all fenced in with a very interesting structure, and she made a drawing of all that and said,

00:25:08.000 you know, there's this kind of trough up in the air, but it's got holes in it, so it couldn't carry water.

00:25:13.000 There's something going by really fast.

00:25:15.000 I mean, she really nailed it.

00:25:18.000 And so we got the idea, and that was the biggest discovery in this whole thing, was that apparently, as with, say, athletic ability or musical ability, there's a bell curve.

00:25:34.000 And you got superstars at one end, you got duds at the other, but to some degree, anybody could do it.

00:25:41.000 So that had a lot of...

00:25:44.000 Outcome later on in the program when finally, to give an example of a real-world result, a Soviet plane went down somewhere in Africa.

00:25:56.000 That's all we knew.

00:25:57.000 Somewhere in Africa a plane went down.

00:26:00.000 So Stansfield-Turner, who was Carter's CIA director, knew about our remote viewing program.

00:26:07.000 And so he said, well, you've got these, quote, remote viewers are supposed to be so good.

00:26:13.000 Why don't they find the plane for you?

00:26:15.000 So, in fact, we had a remote viewer at our lab, and at that time we were working with Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Foreign Technology Division.

00:26:26.000 They had a remote viewer.

00:26:28.000 So we targeted these two remote viewers.

00:26:30.000 All they knew was the plane went down somewhere in Africa, hundreds of thousands of square miles.

00:26:35.000 And to make a long story short, they described how it looked.

00:26:40.000 And put an X on the map that was three miles from where the plane landed.

00:26:44.000 We were told that would never be revealed.

00:26:47.000 To the public.

00:26:48.000 But it turned out that after Carter got out of office, he was giving a speech in Georgia someplace.

00:26:55.000 And somebody said, well, anything happened while you were present that was really strange?

00:26:58.000 He said, oh yeah, the Soviet plane went down in Africa and it was full of electronics and we wanted to get it and nobody knew where it was and satellites couldn't find it because of all the vegetation.

00:27:11.000 But we had some remote viewers, so-called.

00:27:15.000 They pinpointed where it was, and we went in and got it before the Russians could find it.

00:27:20.000 So, I mean, the real-world consequences came out of this stuff.

00:27:24.000 So when Carter said that, was that a breach of confidence?

00:27:29.000 That was a breach of security, but a president can...

00:27:33.000 They're allowed to do that?

00:27:34.000 They're allowed to do that.

00:27:35.000 Don't tell Trump.

00:27:37.000 Right.

00:27:38.000 So the United States was able to go and get this jet.

00:27:44.000 Right.

00:27:46.000 The TU-22 bomber, I think it was.

00:27:49.000 So this has real-world uses, so this remote viewing.

00:27:55.000 So do they invest more time and more effort into this now?

00:27:59.000 Are there still skeptics?

00:28:02.000 Well, we pretty much handle the skeptical problem.

00:28:05.000 And let me give you an example.

00:28:08.000 I mean, as we're churning out these results, as you can imagine, anybody...

00:28:13.000 You know, didn't have direct knowledge of this would be skeptical, and rightly so, by the way.

00:28:19.000 I mean, I was skeptical every inch along the way as we plowed our way into this stuff.

00:28:25.000 So one day, a guy shows up from CIA and says, okay, I'm here to find out what the fraud is.

00:28:34.000 I'm sure this is absolute nonsense.

00:28:36.000 They said, okay, fine.

00:28:38.000 So show me one of your experiments.

00:28:40.000 So we put him in the lab with an interviewer and a remote viewer.

00:28:46.000 And in this case, I'm sent out someplace for 30 minutes.

00:28:53.000 It turns out that the remote viewer described it really well.

00:28:57.000 And he said, well, you probably told him where you're going to go.

00:29:03.000 Let's do another experiment and I'm going to go.

00:29:06.000 And we'll go in my car because you might have had a transmitter in your car transmitting where you're going.

00:29:13.000 So I'm going to pick the site.

00:29:15.000 So we do another experiment, get a great result.

00:29:19.000 So finally he says, well, I've got to figure out what's wrong with this.

00:29:24.000 So my colleague, Russell Targ, and I sat down.

00:29:27.000 This guy's a hard case, but we've got the bell curve.

00:29:31.000 Who knows?

00:29:31.000 Maybe somewhere in the middle of the bell curve.

00:29:33.000 So he comes in the next day.

00:29:35.000 And we say, okay, today you're going to be the remote viewer.

00:29:41.000 And he said, give me a break.

00:29:43.000 I don't believe in this BS.

00:29:44.000 He said much more strongly than that, actually.

00:29:48.000 And I said, no, no, okay, well, just try it.

00:29:50.000 You'll see we're not stressing him out and whatever, whatever, whatever.

00:29:53.000 And he says, okay.

00:29:55.000 And when you go to your place, I want you to take pictures and...

00:30:03.000 Do a recording.

00:30:04.000 And when you come back, show me your stuff before I show you mine.

00:30:08.000 Okay, fine.

00:30:09.000 Well, it turned out we went to a playground with a merry-go-round.

00:30:14.000 Meanwhile, back in the lab, he's drawing a picture of a playground with a merry-go-round.

00:30:20.000 And he sees the results and he says, okay, you've convinced me.

00:30:25.000 So it was that kind of thing that would push him over.

00:30:29.000 Yeah, there's an example.

00:30:31.000 Now, he misinterpreted what it was.

00:30:33.000 He thought maybe it was a cupola or whatever.

00:30:37.000 But anyway, that's his drawing on the right, and that's where we were on the left.

00:30:41.000 And so he went back to CIA and said, okay, this stuff really works.

00:30:46.000 And he became one of their star remote viewers over the years.

00:30:50.000 Wow.

00:30:51.000 So a skeptic became one of their remote viewers.

00:30:53.000 Yep, sure did.

00:30:54.000 What is the process?

00:30:55.000 What is the process for a person to remote view?

00:30:59.000 Is there a state that you have to go into?

00:31:01.000 Is there a method to getting into that state?

00:31:03.000 There is a method, and it's different from what you might think.

00:31:07.000 You might think you would say to somebody, okay, we've got somebody to decide.

00:31:12.000 Kind of imagine where they are and see what it looks like and tell us what you find and all that kind of stuff.

00:31:18.000 They're usually wrong when they do that because their imagination comes into play and they make up something or whatever.

00:31:24.000 But what we found out in the research, it took years and a lot of trials, was that you get a visceral response.

00:31:34.000 It's not that you necessarily get an image.

00:31:37.000 So, in fact, we told them, you know, if you get an image, just put it down the right-hand side of the paper because it's probably wrong.

00:31:44.000 Instead, just kind of put down your feelings as you get into the site.

00:31:48.000 And so, you know, if it's like water, they might...

00:31:51.000 Do waves, or if it's a mountain peak, they might, as Jacques described in one of your previous broadcasts, a mountain peak, and they just feel like drawing something like that.

00:32:02.000 So bit by bit, the process is very much a visceral feeling process, and so the training procedure has them sitting with pads of paper and just making sketches and drawings and not trying to interpret what it is.

00:32:20.000 And also being very not in a rush about it.

00:32:24.000 It's sort of like you've got a door and you drill a hole through and then drill another hole through and another hole through and then finally the door crumbles and then you've got a pretty good feeling for what the sign is.

00:32:37.000 So the process that we use to train people involves this multi-stage process where they're to go by feelings, colors.

00:32:49.000 Flashes of things.

00:32:50.000 You see a flash of a piece of metal, don't try to turn it into a car or a bicycle or whatever.

00:32:55.000 So anyway, it was a whole training procedure that we developed.

00:32:57.000 And eventually when we briefed the assistant chief of staff for intelligence, assistant director of intelligence for the Army, they said, okay, well, then we need to have our people get involved in learning how to do this.

00:33:14.000 And so they sent...

00:33:16.000 Army intelligence officers.

00:33:19.000 They picked out a bunch of them and said, hey, you've just volunteered to become a psychic spy.

00:33:24.000 And they said, well, okay.

00:33:25.000 And they sent them out to SRI.

00:33:28.000 And we ran them through this step-by-step training procedure.

00:33:32.000 And they learned to do really, really well.

00:33:35.000 I mean, Joel McMonegal, who anyone who follows the literature, is known to be a brilliant, excellent remote viewer.

00:33:47.000 I'll give you an example.

00:33:50.000 One time he said, I mean, we trained them, and so they learned to do really well.

00:33:56.000 We set up a whole program.

00:33:58.000 And he said, okay, there's this site in the Soviet Union, and they're making this unbelievably giant submarine.

00:34:09.000 And it's made out of titanium or something.

00:34:12.000 I mean, it's bigger than any submarine that anybody's ever heard of.

00:34:17.000 And it's strange because the missile silos are on the top rather than along the sides and so on.

00:34:23.000 He gave this whole description.

00:34:25.000 Of course, at that time, we were briefing all the way up to National Security Council, and so they looked at this.

00:34:31.000 This is nonsense.

00:34:32.000 But about a month later, out rolls this unbelievably giant submarine, the Typhoon-class submarine, the largest submarine ever made.

00:34:41.000 Indeed, there are his sketches and a lot of description that went along with his sketches.

00:34:48.000 And there's a submarine on the right.

00:34:50.000 And so finally the people of the National Security Council said, okay, we better start taking this seriously.

00:34:56.000 So to make a long story short, he eventually, Joe McMoneagle, got a National Merit Award for over 200 great viewings he did for...

00:35:10.000 CIA, National Security Council, FBI, I mean, you name it.

00:35:15.000 So anyway, that grew into a whole industry.

00:35:18.000 This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog.

00:35:21.000 If you're anything like me, you love your dog.

00:35:23.000 You want what's best for your furry pal.

00:35:25.000 But figuring out what that is can be a real headache.

00:35:29.000 There's a lot of misinformation out there, especially around dog food.

00:35:33.000 Take kibble, for example.

00:35:35.000 Almost everyone has probably fed their dog kibble at some point.

00:35:38.000 But if you do a little digging, you may find out how ultra-processed it is.

00:35:43.000 Luckily, there's a better option for you out there, real food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body, like the farmer's dog.

00:35:53.000 They make fresh food that's so simple, no magical or miracle recipes, just meat and vegetables, lightly cooked, complete and balanced for your dog's needs.

00:36:05.000 And it's all developed by board-certified nutritionists with the same safety standards as our food.

00:36:12.000 To make the switch, you'll see a massive impact.

00:36:15.000 It can help your dogs be healthier, happier, and more energetic.

00:36:19.000 And unlike kibble, which comes in a giant bag with vague serving suggestions, the farmer's dog food is delivered in packs, portioned for your dog.

00:36:29.000 It makes it easy to help them maintain their ideal weight, which is one of the biggest predictors of a longer, healthier life.

00:36:37.000 Look, no one, dog or human, should be eating overly processed foods for every meal.

00:36:42.000 And it doesn't matter how old your dog is.

00:36:45.000 It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness.

00:36:49.000 So try The Farmer's Dog today.

00:36:52.000 You can get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at thefarmersdog.com slash rogan.

00:36:59.000 Plus, you get free shipping.

00:37:02.000 Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan.

00:37:06.000 Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more.

00:37:09.000 Offer applicable for new customers only.

00:37:12.000 So this is still kind of a mystery even to you.

00:37:16.000 Even someone who has studied this for this long, you know that it works, but you're not exactly sure how it's working.

00:37:23.000 Is that a fair assessment?

00:37:25.000 That's a fair assessment.

00:37:26.000 I mean, when we, as physicists, we hate to say, oh, don't have a clue.

00:37:31.000 So...

00:37:32.000 Well, we now know there's so-called quantum entanglement, which is that things seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances.

00:37:42.000 And so the easy answer is, well, it must be quantum entanglement.

00:37:47.000 But, you know, that's just words.

00:37:49.000 It doesn't really tell us how it works.

00:37:51.000 But to give you an example, we wondered how far you could go.

00:37:57.000 So we did an experiment, again, with Ingo Swann, who was such a...

00:38:01.000 A really top-level remote viewer to view Jupiter, planet Jupiter, before the flyby.

00:38:13.000 Before the NASA flyby.

00:38:15.000 And so he did.

00:38:17.000 And he described Jupiter the way anybody might, you know, red spot and all that kind of stuff.

00:38:23.000 But he said, but there's a thin ring around Jupiter.

00:38:26.000 I wonder if I went to Saturn by mistake, but I really see a ring around Jupiter.

00:38:31.000 Nobody knew about any ring around Jupiter.

00:38:34.000 Carl Sagan happened to come by in the lab and said, oh, what do you think of this?

00:38:38.000 We got this result.

00:38:39.000 He said, ring around Jupiter.

00:38:41.000 That's nonsense.

00:38:43.000 But when the NASA flyby finally got there, it turned out there was a ring, a small ring around Jupiter.

00:38:50.000 And so we got that in publication in a book we wrote about all this stuff.

00:38:56.000 Before it was known in the scientific community.

00:38:59.000 So that's what we find out, that apparently even distances is not a big deal.

00:39:06.000 The other thing we wondered, I can tell you what it isn't.

00:39:10.000 We thought maybe it was brainwaves.

00:39:13.000 The Russians came up with an idea, well, brainwaves, low frequency, long wavelength, they can seemingly... 0.96

00:39:24.000 Get through some aspects of the environment.

00:39:30.000 So we came up with a series of experiments, and one of them was, okay, let's put our remote viewers on submarines, take them into the depths of the ocean, because it turns out seawater is highly conductive,

00:39:45.000 and so even at low frequencies, even at brainwave frequencies...

00:39:53.000 It would be a complete shield for that.

00:39:55.000 So we piggybacked on somebody else's experiments, Stephen Schwartz's experiments using remote viewers to go find archaeological wrecks and shipwrecks and so on, which turned out to eventually be a successful experiment.

00:40:10.000 But anyway, we got to do two experiments.

00:40:11.000 We got pristine results, even with them under there, under the ocean water.

00:40:19.000 So we know it's not ordinary electromagnetic.

00:40:23.000 Functioning.

00:40:23.000 So we can strike one thing off the list, not that we know what to put on the list in its place, other than, you know, it's got to be some new field, some quantum aspect that we don't understand yet.

00:40:37.000 We don't understand, but yet you could repeat it.

00:40:40.000 But we could repeat it.

00:40:42.000 I'll give you another example of the skepticism that we got.

00:40:47.000 And by the way, I can't blame him. 0.97

00:40:50.000 We had some psychologists at SRI, and they said, you've got that stupid ESP experiment stuff going on, and this is going to ruin our reputation. 0.98

00:41:02.000 People think that we're a nonsense place, and so that's hurting our reputation. 0.89

00:41:07.000 Of course, they didn't know it was a highly classified CIA program, so anyway.

00:41:13.000 So our director said, well, what do you think?

00:41:17.000 I mean, how would you know if this is?

00:41:19.000 False or whatever.

00:41:21.000 And he said, look, make a list of all experiments, places that have been gone to as targets, and then give us the transcripts that were generated for those viewings, and don't tell us which ones go with which ones,

00:41:40.000 and we'll try to rank them for each place.

00:41:44.000 And so they did that, much to their chagrin.

00:41:48.000 Seven of the nine were first place matches in a nine experiment series.

00:41:54.000 I'll give you another example of...

00:41:57.000 And by the way, I can't complain about the skepticism.

00:42:02.000 I mean, even as we're doing all this, we haven't lost our skepticism about how could this be.

00:42:11.000 But we finally got into a spot where...

00:42:16.000 The only thing that was secret about this program was that it was secret.

00:42:21.000 People heard that we had these people coming in and doing experiments, but we weren't publishing anything.

00:42:27.000 So I went to the CIA contract monitor and said, you know, you've got to let us publish something because the only secret about this project is there's a secret project.

00:42:34.000 So if we publish something, that will handle that.

00:42:38.000 Did you want to do that to get more scientists involved?

00:42:41.000 Yes, that was our personal aspect.

00:42:44.000 So that if there was actual data, more people who were on the outside skeptical would say, well, hold on.

00:42:50.000 Why am I skeptical?

00:42:52.000 Maybe perhaps there's something to this.

00:42:54.000 And then you start considering your own life, these moments of intuition.

00:42:59.000 Weird coincidences.

00:43:00.000 You're thinking about someone they call you.

00:43:02.000 We all have this idea that there's something there, but we don't know what it is.

00:43:08.000 But we're very skeptical of someone who tells us that they can do it.

00:43:12.000 And that's reasonable to think that way.

00:43:15.000 And so in this case where we got permission to publish something, since we're engineers, Russell Targ, my colleague, and I are engineers and physicists, we wrote it up for the...

00:43:28.000 Proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.

00:43:32.000 This is an engineering journal where we had published technical papers.

00:43:36.000 So I said, well, we have a better chance there.

00:43:38.000 Sent it off to them.

00:43:40.000 The editor was head of communications at Bell Labs.

00:43:43.000 And he comes back and says, well, I don't know.

00:43:48.000 And we said, why?

00:43:49.000 Are you getting bad reviews?

00:43:50.000 And he says, well, actually, I'm getting good reviews.

00:43:53.000 But one really heavy hitter just gave me a one-sentence review.

00:43:56.000 Saying, this is the kind of thing I wouldn't believe in, even if it were true.

00:44:01.000 What does that mean?

00:44:02.000 So anyway, we said, look, I understand your problem.

00:44:07.000 Look, let us come and present this stuff to your engineers.

00:44:11.000 If they throw tomatoes, okay, don't publish our paper.

00:44:14.000 But if they like it, then publish it.

00:44:17.000 So we went to Bell Labs, presented our data.

00:44:20.000 The engineers were all excited, trying to figure out what the mechanism could be and so on.

00:44:24.000 So we figured we were home free.

00:44:27.000 He said, no, I still...

00:44:28.000 So then we pull out our trump card, as always, which is, okay, look.

00:44:35.000 Do your own experiments at Bell Labs.

00:44:38.000 Pick people from your engineers.

00:44:41.000 Pick people from your offices to be...

00:44:44.000 To make up lists of targets.

00:44:46.000 Pick people here to be your blind match group to see if they can match them up.

00:44:53.000 And if you get results like we got, then publish it.

00:44:57.000 If you don't, don't.

00:44:58.000 He said, okay, that's fair.

00:45:01.000 So it turns out he did the whole thing, got the same kind of results we got.

00:45:06.000 Our paper got published, 1976, Proceedings of the IEEE.

00:45:10.000 And so that suddenly got other people saying, okay, well, maybe there really is something to this.

00:45:16.000 So it turns out that for those who follow the field know that Robert John and Brenda Dunn, Robert John was head of engineering at Princeton.

00:45:28.000 He had a student who wanted to do these kind of experiments, and he thought it was nonsense.

00:45:32.000 But they came out and heard our briefing, and he went back.

00:45:35.000 Long story short, he set up a, I don't know, 20-year program.

00:45:40.000 Completely replicating our remote viewing work and also doing effects on random number generators that were quantum-driven.

00:45:51.000 And so the so-called Pear Lab, Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab, replicated all of our work.

00:45:58.000 And so pretty soon it's all over the place.

00:46:02.000 So, by the way, at the end of the sort of...

00:46:07.000 Cold War there where there was a detente.

00:46:11.000 Some of our remote viewers went over to Russia to talk to their remote viewers, and they traded war stories.

00:46:18.000 They lived through the same kind of thing.

00:46:22.000 So there it is.

00:46:23.000 It's so interesting that we almost didn't consider that.

00:46:27.000 Just imagine you not running into Ingo Swann, you not asking him to affect that quantum chip.

00:46:38.000 Where Russia's doing all this stuff and the United States never gets involved in it at all.

00:46:42.000 That could have happened.

00:46:44.000 That could have happened.

00:46:45.000 I mean, it was really, you know, the tiniest flip of a coin that that happened.

00:46:50.000 So what that means is, for me personally, is that even though I had no interest in all that kind of stuff, this totally random event happened.

00:47:01.000 And then once I built up a reputation for being willing to take on things that are impossible, Then that's why when the UAP, the UFO issue, kind of rose up again, who are you going to call?

00:47:16.000 Al Putoff.

00:47:17.000 I get my call.

00:47:19.000 So what was the initial introduction to the UAP phenomenon?

00:47:23.000 And when was this?

00:47:25.000 Well, there was an early introduction in 2004.

00:47:35.000 Well, maybe a little earlier, in the 90s, I was doing work for Robert Bigelow at Bigelow Aerospace.

00:47:43.000 And in addition to his aerospace stuff, he put two units circling the Earth, and he made the...

00:48:00.000 I was involved with him.

00:48:09.000 And around that time, I had gotten a call from somebody I knew in Washington, D.C., head of a think tank.

00:48:18.000 I can't name him, but he said, I need you to come to Washington to be...

00:48:24.000 Part of a little project, a little briefing.

00:48:28.000 And I said, no, I don't have the time.

00:48:32.000 Right now, I'm just too busy.

00:48:34.000 He says, look, come, it'll be the most important meeting you've ever had in your life.

00:48:41.000 Well, since I had him calibrated, because I had done other work with him for the Navy and so on, I said, okay, I'll come.

00:48:51.000 So I showed up there.

00:48:55.000 And I saw people, some of whom I knew, including my ex-contract monitor from CIA, people from DIA, a lot of military people and so on.

00:49:08.000 So he sat us all down and said, okay, here's the deal.

00:49:12.000 Here's why I've invited you all here.

00:49:18.000 Let's just say, he says, That the United States, Russia, and China have obtained ET craft that have crashed.

00:49:37.000 And we have proof of that.

00:49:42.000 Bodies that aren't human. 0.99

00:49:45.000 And so the question is, can this be released to the public?

00:49:50.000 What effect would it have?

00:49:53.000 So I and the other people, I found out by talking to them later, we thought, oh, this is cool.

00:49:58.000 I mean, maybe we can get some kind of disclosure here.

00:50:02.000 And so he said, here's what we're going to do.

00:50:07.000 We're going to make up a list of what would be affected in the culture with this kind of a disclosure.

00:50:17.000 And by the way, at this point, we still didn't know, is he saying that...

00:50:21.000 That's true stuff or is this a hypothetical?

00:50:24.000 Anyway, make a list.

00:50:28.000 So we came up with a long list, like, I don't know, 60 items or something.

00:50:31.000 You say, oh, well, a stock market might be affected, religions might be affected, you know, whatever.

00:50:40.000 Government?

00:50:41.000 Government affected, policies be affected, you know.

00:50:46.000 Politics would certainly be affected.

00:50:48.000 And then for each item, we had to go give it a score from plus nine to minus nine as to how intense the effect would be and whether it's positive or negative.

00:50:59.000 So anyway, we broke up into groups, and our group had our list of eight or so.

00:51:05.000 So we went down our list, and it turned out that...

00:51:09.000 We ended up getting net negative numbers.

00:51:13.000 And let me tell you why you can get negative numbers.

00:51:17.000 One of the things down toward the bottom of the list, and we really got into the weeds, was, well, suppose materials from a crash retrieval of a non-human craft was given to Corporation A,

00:51:35.000 but Corporation B didn't get...

00:51:37.000 Any samples.

00:51:39.000 And then years later, Corporation A is making lots of money based on what they got.

00:51:44.000 Meanwhile, Corporation B has gone bankrupt.

00:51:47.000 And then they find out they were excluded.

00:51:50.000 Well, they're going to end up suing the corporations, suing the government.

00:51:54.000 I mean, it really gets gnarly when you get into the weeds and into the details.

00:51:59.000 As it turns out, with our group of eight or so, we said, you know, we get a negative number.

00:52:05.000 Well, it turned out that all the groups got negative numbers.

00:52:07.000 So the outcome of that exercise was, if you're thinking about disclosure, forget it.

00:52:13.000 Was this during George Herbert Walker Bush's?

00:52:17.000 No, it was during Bush 2. Bush 2. George Bush, rather.

00:52:21.000 George Bush, yeah.

00:52:22.000 W. So when this was all going on, You still didn't know what they had.

00:52:31.000 Didn't know what they had.

00:52:32.000 This was just...

00:52:33.000 They were saying...

00:52:34.000 This could be apathetical or he could be trying to tell us something, but he wouldn't say.

00:52:39.000 Interesting.

00:52:40.000 And how much time did they give you to compile this list and to generate these numbers of plus and minus?

00:52:45.000 It was two or three days.

00:52:46.000 I don't recall right now.

00:52:49.000 How did you attribute numbers to things like the stock market?

00:52:52.000 How did you figure out how that would be?

00:52:56.000 Well, you know, it was just a gut response, basically.

00:53:00.000 You remote viewed it?

00:53:02.000 No, it didn't do that.

00:53:04.000 By the way, in the remote viewing program, one of the things they told us, look, you guys that are running this program, don't you ever think about remote viewing yourself.

00:53:14.000 We learned in the LSD days that if the experimenters get involved in the subject they're researching, they lose their objectivity.

00:53:22.000 And don't think you can sneak away and get away with it because we'll get you on the polygraph.

00:53:27.000 So no, never did.

00:53:29.000 Don't remote view yourself.

00:53:31.000 What a bizarre thing to tell someone.

00:53:33.000 That's what they said.

00:53:34.000 So anyway, back to this.

00:53:38.000 So we came up with our numbers and said, you know, this does not look like a good idea.

00:53:43.000 So at that time, that was the viewpoint.

00:53:47.000 Now, as we'll get into, at this point, I have a different viewpoint.

00:53:51.000 I think there should be more disclosure than is apparent in the culture.

00:53:57.000 Well, I think that's much more common.

00:54:01.000 Much more common, right.

00:54:02.000 That thought is more common with not just academics but even government people.

00:54:07.000 Even government people, right.

00:54:08.000 In fact, I have a great example of that, and that is Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb. 0.94

00:54:17.000 Involved in the Manhattan Project, you'd think if anybody wanted to keep secrets about national security, it would be him.

00:54:24.000 One of the strongest statements he made, which actually was kind of a driver in my shifting my viewpoint about, well, should we come out with this or not?

00:54:33.000 He said, you know, in exploring nuclear energy, we had the Manhattan Project, highly classified.

00:54:43.000 But nonetheless, we and the Russians kind of marched along step by step.

00:54:49.000 But in electronics, we didn't classify electronics, circuit boards and all that kind of stuff.

00:54:57.000 And we took off like a rocket and left Russia in the dust. 0.96

00:55:01.000 So his viewpoint was that having more openness, even in national security areas, is a better bet.

00:55:09.000 And so that made me think...

00:55:12.000 Even though I'd been part of, as it turns out, decades-long, highly classified, not-for-the-street, UAP investigations, that sort of affected my thinking about it,

00:55:29.000 and I became more open.

00:55:31.000 To the idea that, you know, we should do that.

00:55:33.000 But the way I got actually more officially involved was that, as it turns out, in 2008, I think it was, Harry Reid, who was at the time Senate Majority Leader,

00:55:50.000 Daniel Inouye from Hawaii, Ted Stevens from Alaska, they're part of the Gang of Eight.

00:56:00.000 So they get better briefings than most people on what's going on beyond the scenes.

00:56:06.000 So at that point, you might think, well, UFO stuff, I mean, that's all dead.

00:56:14.000 Let me give you a little background first.

00:56:15.000 And that is, you know, back in the 50s and 60s, we had Project Sign, Project Rudge, Project Blue Book.

00:56:23.000 And then they had the Condon Committee at University of Colorado examine the area and say, he came out with this thing saying, there's nothing here.

00:56:34.000 It's not worth the Air Force spending any time on it.

00:56:38.000 Actually, the Condon Report, if you read it, there's a deep report showing all kinds of reasons why this is real.

00:56:45.000 And then there's the foreword, which most media read, in which he said, oh, nothing here.

00:56:51.000 Don't worry about it.

00:56:53.000 So after 1969, which is when that report came out, if you called Air Force Public Affairs off and said, well, what's going on with UFOs?

00:57:04.000 Oh, no, no, we give up all that stuff back in 1969.

00:57:07.000 The truth of the matter is that the very memo that canceled Blue Book by General Bolander had down the fine print, but anything that might affect national security, we should keep track of.

00:57:22.000 So now we come up to, you know, 2017.

00:57:27.000 These senators who knew that there was still stuff going on decided there should be a new program.

00:57:34.000 And so they asked the top physicists at DIA, Jim Lekatsky, who was one of the top physicists on propulsion and rocketry and so on, to put out a request for proposal.

00:57:53.000 And so that went out, and so actually Robert Bigelow picked it up.

00:57:57.000 And he said, okay, we'll do this.

00:58:00.000 And so he then got the program, and since I'd been involved with Bigelow, he asked me to be part of the program.

00:58:10.000 So that's when I got, you might say, officially involved in really digging into the issue.

00:58:16.000 And what was your perspective at that point?

00:58:18.000 So you had this thing during the George Bush administration.

00:58:22.000 And what was your perspective after that conversation?

00:58:26.000 Did you think maybe they do have something, the Crash Roswell site, maybe something else?

00:58:34.000 Did you know more from talking to other people?

00:58:37.000 Had you heard whispers?

00:58:38.000 Like, what did you know?

00:58:40.000 What I knew was not much.

00:58:43.000 I mean, I heard whispers, but I didn't get...

00:58:49.000 You know, really involved in thinking about it.

00:58:51.000 I mean, you know, a good physicist realizes this is tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff, you know.

00:58:57.000 But you had already had experience with remote viewing, seemingly being nonsense as well.

00:59:01.000 I already got that problem.

00:59:04.000 So, but when they came up with the idea we should do another deeper dive into this, and by that time I was, you know, I mean, as a physicist.

00:59:17.000 I mean, through the years.

00:59:18.000 I mean, I was a Star Trek fan and, you know, Star Trek fan and all that kind of stuff.

00:59:23.000 And as a physicist, I would hear about these UFO sightings and so on.

00:59:29.000 So I always wondered about, you know, how can this, you know, could somebody really have any kind of propulsion that would look like that?

00:59:41.000 So anyway, so when this program got set up, It turned out my particular assignment was, okay, let's look at all the physics and engineering that might be behind this stuff.

01:00:01.000 And by the way, we will arrange for you to get access to some materials.

01:00:08.000 Okay, fine.

01:00:10.000 So that was my tasking, and so I said, okay.

01:00:14.000 So I can't get into a lot of detail, but I did do a lot of back and forth with some aerospace executives about getting access in case they had any materials and that kind of stuff.

01:00:32.000 So they finally said, no, if that were the case, it would be too compartmentalized.

01:00:37.000 We can't share this.

01:00:39.000 Even though you have an official program, you've got Top Secret, SCI, Gamma, HCS, you've got all these clearances.

01:00:48.000 But if we had materials, it would be too highly classified.

01:00:54.000 We couldn't share them.

01:00:56.000 So a lot of negotiation went on.

01:00:58.000 I spent a lot of time with the vice president.

01:01:00.000 Unless there's something to negotiate about.

01:01:03.000 Exactly.

01:01:04.000 If there was nothing to negotiate about, you'd say, how?

01:01:06.000 We don't have materials.

01:01:08.000 You wouldn't say, you don't have enough clearance for us to even discuss this.

01:01:12.000 Exactly.

01:01:13.000 Already they're tipping their hat.

01:01:14.000 They're already tipping their hat.

01:01:16.000 So anyway, the second place to go then was, okay, they're not going to share their materials.

01:01:26.000 I'm going to almost assuredly have them.

01:01:31.000 Suppose they had shared them.

01:01:33.000 What would we have done?

01:01:36.000 Well, we would have gone to subject matter experts all around the world.

01:01:40.000 We'd give them some materials.

01:01:42.000 We'd say, you know, this came from a Russian sub or, you know, whatever.

01:01:48.000 Give us your best output and so on.

01:01:52.000 So I said, okay, since we're not able to get materials and share them.

01:02:00.000 Let me go to all of the subject matter experts that we would have gone to and say, we're doing a survey for Bigelow Aerospace.

01:02:12.000 He wants to know where will your field be in the year 2050.

01:02:18.000 So we figured, okay, we'd get the best sort of assessment of possible futures for their fields.

01:02:28.000 I realize you probably don't have immediate access to this, but just to give you an idea, some of the papers that we got by going out to these people, and you'll see how serious we were.

01:02:42.000 A-neutronic fusion propulsion, superconductors and gravity research, positron aerospace propulsion, warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, advanced nuclear propulsion.

01:02:56.000 Jamie's got it up here.

01:02:56.000 Yeah.

01:02:58.000 So this is just the first few of 38 papers that I arranged for leaders to come up with.

01:03:08.000 So this is based on projections from where technology currently sits to, if you extrapolate, where it's going to be in 2050 based on what they're working on.

01:03:18.000 Right.

01:03:19.000 Space-time metric engineering, traversable wormholes, stargates.

01:03:23.000 So you see, we weren't kidding around.

01:03:26.000 Well, when you started getting the warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, brain-machine interfaces.

01:03:35.000 Now, did you ask any of these?

01:03:37.000 So presumably, this is just me from a civilian's perspective, presumably you have some sort of a crash thing.

01:03:44.000 You have to bring in people who make spaceships.

01:03:48.000 You have to bring in people who make military jets, advanced propulsion systems.

01:03:57.000 Those are the people that would be able to back in.

01:04:00.000 And the people we had working on those papers were people from those communities.

01:04:05.000 How did they – this is the conundrum that if they did disclose and the companies that weren't given access to these materials did fall apart and then the companies that got access to these materials advanced and had spectacular businesses, how did they decide?

01:04:22.000 Just assuming you would have something, how would you decide?

01:04:26.000 Was it based on relationships?

01:04:29.000 Like knowing that someone could keep a secret?

01:04:32.000 Because you're dealing with outside the government now.

01:04:35.000 Presumably, if you have a defense contractor, that's an independent company.

01:04:41.000 Not necessarily, even though they work hand in glove with the government, they're not necessarily a part of the government.

01:04:49.000 So, in fact, if you put your thinking cap on, you'd say, okay, this would be the way if you want to keep it out of the public.

01:05:00.000 Because you don't have to disclose it.

01:05:01.000 Yeah, you don't have to give it to a contractor.

01:05:03.000 Right.

01:05:04.000 Okay, this is your stuff.

01:05:05.000 And from now on, you own it.

01:05:07.000 But how do you control that, though?

01:05:09.000 You don't have to have government agents embedded deeply in that, which I assume they do anyway.

01:05:15.000 But you'd have to have intelligence agents deep.

01:05:18.000 I hope they do.

01:05:20.000 Deeply embedded in these defense contractors where they would make sure that they maintain some sort of intense level of secrecy.

01:05:29.000 That's exactly right.

01:05:31.000 And when you think about, okay, these days, well, suppose we have some kind of disclosure.

01:05:41.000 What are these companies going to do?

01:05:43.000 They've been hiding things or various parts of the government have been hiding things.

01:05:48.000 Misappropriating funds, lying to Congress.

01:05:50.000 Lying to Congress.

01:05:51.000 So you can see why it's such a big problem at this point.

01:05:56.000 Well, that was that disclosure documentary that...

01:05:59.000 I saw you in as well that appeared at South by Southwest, which is excellent.

01:06:04.000 What is it called?

01:06:05.000 It's called The Age of Disclosure.

01:06:07.000 Amazing documentary.

01:06:08.000 It's an amazing documentary.

01:06:09.000 I really hope that gets released somewhere big, like Netflix or something like that, so people can see it.

01:06:14.000 I think Dan Farah, who's the director and producer of that.

01:06:20.000 By the way, a very well-known producer, you know, he collaborated with Steven Spielberg on Ready Player One, which was the big hit and so on.

01:06:29.000 And the approach he used, which is really very clever, he contacted people like me, people like Lou Elizondo, on and on and on, and said, you know,

01:06:44.000 many of you don't want to come out really and reveal too much.

01:06:50.000 Podcast by podcast by podcast.

01:06:53.000 So tell you what.

01:06:55.000 My goal, he says, I'm going to approach 38 of the maximum insiders.

01:07:02.000 And by maximum insiders, I mean it includes people like Senator Rubio, Secretary of State, Clapper, who's, you know.

01:07:15.000 And I'm going to get all of you to...

01:07:19.000 Collaborate on saying what your involvement was to the degree you can and, you know, not say something and end up going to jail.

01:07:26.000 And then we'll put out maximum disclosure evidence all at one time in this film.

01:07:37.000 And it'll include people coming forward like Jay Stratton, who is head of the UAP Task Force.

01:07:44.000 He's been involved in this field for 16 years.

01:07:49.000 By the way, he has a book about to come out also, which will really be a disclosure.

01:07:55.000 So anyways, we'll put this together.

01:07:58.000 We won't talk about it along the way.

01:08:01.000 And so 38 of us ended up being interviewed for the film, telling whatever role we felt we could tell.

01:08:11.000 So, in fact, when that film comes out, that's going to be disclosure on steroids, I think.

01:08:16.000 That's going to be the maximum.

01:08:18.000 Well, you saw the film, so you know it's pretty revealing.

01:08:22.000 It's very well done.

01:08:23.000 Yeah, very well done.

01:08:24.000 So, for your own personal journey into this stuff, you're initially introduced to it because they're talking about disclosure.

01:08:30.000 You rate the pros and cons.

01:08:33.000 And then, when do you get introduced to it again?

01:08:38.000 Well, it was when, basically, when Robert Bigelow got the contract that Harry Reid and the other senators asked.

01:08:48.000 And how much time has passed?

01:08:50.000 Well, that was in 2008.

01:08:54.000 So a couple.

01:08:56.000 And so that went up through 2012.

01:09:01.000 And then ATIP.

01:09:03.000 Which you may have heard of, that Lou Elizondo ran, sort of picked up there to keep the ball rolling forward.

01:09:10.000 And now it's been revealed, by the way, only recently, that when the funding dried up, it dried up for the reasons you might think of, and that is it was so highly classified that when congressional statements came down that,

01:09:30.000 okay, we need so much money for this, It didn't actually describe it.

01:09:34.000 It was just advanced propulsion and all that kind of stuff.

01:09:37.000 So another group picked up the money and said, oh, well, we're working on propulsion things, but it wasn't the real deal.

01:09:46.000 And so what do you do at that point?

01:09:48.000 Do you go, now, wait a minute, this was really for this?

01:09:51.000 Well, then you'd be revealing what this was really for.

01:09:53.000 So anyway, that sort of ended that way.

01:09:57.000 But anyway, so based on that, we then, as a group...

01:10:02.000 Went to, as it turns out, the Department of Homeland Security to set up a whole new program.

01:10:10.000 And it was going to be a special access program.

01:10:14.000 It was under a name, which can now be revealed because Aero, the Advanced Anomalies Aerospace Resolution Office, has revealed it.

01:10:29.000 It was called Kona Blue.

01:10:32.000 And we built up a stack of documents that would go to the ceiling here about what needed to be done, what we were going to do, how it should be done, who should be involved.

01:10:43.000 So at this point you're convinced that this is a real phenomenon.

01:10:46.000 At this point I'm convinced that there's a real phenomenon.

01:10:49.000 I mean, you know, how far can I go?

01:10:52.000 I mean, I can say I interacted with, for example, Dave Grush that you've had on your program before, Really a high-level intelligence officer.

01:11:04.000 People in the public can hardly have any idea how high a level intelligence officer he was.

01:11:11.000 He prepared briefings for the president.

01:11:14.000 He was a top UAP investigator for NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office, and then transferred over to NGA, National Geospatial Intelligence Office, and so on.

01:11:28.000 And so in that role...

01:11:31.000 He was asked, he was an official, part of the UAP task force, asked by Jay Stratton to find out what's going on behind the scenes at these super classified levels.

01:11:42.000 And he did.

01:11:43.000 And so that's why, you know, he eventually came out in that August 2023 congressional hearing under oath saying, yep.

01:11:55.000 I've talked to more than 40 people who are directly involved in the program.

01:12:01.000 Well, I know Dave.

01:12:03.000 I know many of the people.

01:12:04.000 I know many of the programs that he's involved in.

01:12:07.000 And so there really is something to it.

01:12:09.000 And it's only a matter of time before it comes out.

01:12:13.000 I don't think you can put the toothpaste back into the tube.

01:12:17.000 Well, it seems like people don't want to.

01:12:19.000 And I think there's so many more people that are openly...

01:12:23.000 Discussing the possibility or what this is.

01:12:26.000 Maybe not even the possibility of it, but addressing that there's something going on.

01:12:30.000 So what is it?

01:12:32.000 Is it interdimensional?

01:12:34.000 Is it intergalactic?

01:12:36.000 Like, what is it?

01:12:38.000 That's just such an excellent question.

01:12:41.000 Because the problem is there's an embarrassment of riches.

01:12:46.000 These craft...

01:12:48.000 You know, which in the old days, you know, a farmer in the fields, someone streaking across the sky, and, you know, I don't know what to think.

01:12:57.000 You know, you could sort of blow it off.

01:12:59.000 But because our own detection equipment has really marched up into unbelievable sophistication, and so now we have these really advanced sensor systems, FLIR, forward-looking infrared radar,

01:13:16.000 high-quality radars.

01:13:19.000 Satellites, Ratcliffe has admitted that satellites have picked up evidence of these craft.

01:13:29.000 And these craft have interfered with military exercises, as we all know from, say, the Nimitz and the Gimbel and the GoFast videos that made it out into the public in 2017.

01:13:50.000 So it's really out there now at this point that there's a reality here.

01:13:56.000 And so that's where we are at this point.

01:14:01.000 One of the more spectacular ones, you talked about the Nimitz, the Commander David Fravor experience.

01:14:07.000 So they're flying over the water outside of San Diego.

01:14:13.000 And they think they see something below the surface, which is large.

01:14:20.000 And then this 20-foot tic-tac-looking thing that's hovering over the water that seems to turn towards them and recognize that it jams their radar.

01:14:33.000 It does something to block their ability to detect it.

01:14:37.000 They have it on screen.

01:14:38.000 They have video of this thing.

01:14:40.000 There's eyewitnesses of this thing.

01:14:42.000 They track it on radar going from above 50,000 feet down to sea level in a second.

01:14:48.000 They don't know what it is.

01:14:50.000 It takes off at an insane rate of speed.

01:14:52.000 It goes to the cat point where they were supposed to meet up.

01:14:56.000 So they have all this data about this thing that behaves in a way that's impossible with our current understanding of propulsion systems.

01:15:05.000 Right.

01:15:05.000 And, of course, in the program, we interviewed the pilots about their experiences and so on.

01:15:12.000 And so you can't blame a pilot.

01:15:14.000 He says, look, this thing was at, you know, 80,000 feet or whatever when he first detected it.

01:15:18.000 Suddenly it's down there right above the water, and then it takes off and does a right-angle turn at Mach 3. You know, this stuff is just way beyond our physics.

01:15:29.000 Of course, to a physics nerd like me, it's like, yeah, now wait a minute.

01:15:33.000 If it's real, it's physics.

01:15:35.000 Right.

01:15:35.000 It can't be beyond our physics.

01:15:36.000 It's beyond our understanding.

01:15:38.000 But it's beyond our engineering.

01:15:40.000 So, in fact...

01:15:41.000 In that series of papers, I showed you the 38 papers, by the way.

01:15:48.000 There's a little side story there.

01:15:50.000 It's interesting.

01:15:51.000 And those 38 papers were then posted.

01:15:54.000 None of these people who generated those papers had any idea it had to do with ETs or UFOs or whatever.

01:16:02.000 They all went up on what's called the JWICS server.

01:16:05.000 It's a classified server for the Pentagon.

01:16:08.000 And intelligence officers and aerospace contractors could get access, but nobody in the public could.

01:16:15.000 And usually those things go up, and they're up for a little while, a month or so, and they take them down.

01:16:23.000 This was such a popular set.

01:16:25.000 This 38 Pavers, such a popular set.

01:16:27.000 Everybody screamed every time they tried to take it down.

01:16:30.000 And so it was posted there forever.

01:16:34.000 But eventually, through Freedom of Information Act and so on, most of those papers have been released.

01:16:43.000 And I was concerned that, oh, my God, these guys are all going to call me up and say, what?

01:16:47.000 You didn't tell me this had anything to do with ETs or UFOs?

01:16:51.000 But actually, nobody seemed to complain about it.

01:16:57.000 Back to the question that you mentioned a little earlier, though, about, you know, what's the source of this?

01:17:02.000 Like I said, it's an embarrassment of riches.

01:17:04.000 There's so much observation.

01:17:08.000 You know, the idea that it may be a scout coming by from some other planet and checking us out and heading off or whatever.

01:17:17.000 I mean, there's much more than that.

01:17:20.000 And, of course, as you know from interviewing Jacques Vallée, He dug into literature and found out, you know, you can go back millennia and see descriptions of exactly what we're talking about today.

01:17:33.000 So, as far as where they come from, what they're doing here, I myself have written a paper called Ultraterrestrials, where I try to cover the gamut.

01:17:48.000 And I cover everything.

01:17:50.000 Yeah, they could be...

01:17:53.000 Spacecraft from some other galaxy whipping through here.

01:17:58.000 Or maybe there's some Atlanteans left over from eons ago, and they're just kind of hiding out in the seabed or in some mountain range someplace.

01:18:08.000 Or maybe some ET group showed up here 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 years ago, and they're hiding out with some bases locally and so on.

01:18:20.000 And, of course, we have a fellow by the name of a professor by the name of Masters who thinks that, well, maybe it's time travelers from the future coming back.

01:18:29.000 And then there's the whole idea, since physicists like to talk about additional dimensions, you know, maybe they come from another.

01:18:36.000 So anyway, then in my ultra-terrestrials paper, I list every one I can think of and say, you know, we should be exploring all of these.

01:18:45.000 So at this point, I would say...

01:18:48.000 We know it's NHI, non-human intelligence, but it's not clear what the source is.

01:18:55.000 Maybe at a higher level of classification than I had access to, maybe it's known, but right now I'd say we don't know.

01:19:04.000 Do you have a suspicion?

01:19:11.000 I guess my suspicion that it's likely...

01:19:19.000 Non-human intelligence from some other galaxy or far out in our own galaxy that have come here with some time back and that there are stations here.

01:19:35.000 You know, I mean, one of our remote viewers that was really good came up one day and said, I was looking around and...

01:19:48.000 I think I found a UFO base on Earth.

01:19:53.000 It was during the remote viewing era, and, you know, oh my God, I've got to report this to my CIA contract monitor.

01:20:01.000 Do I want to tell them that?

01:20:03.000 So I did, and one of the places he came up with was Mount Zeal in Australia.

01:20:13.000 And so my CIA contract monitor says, well, I know...

01:20:16.000 It's a station keeper, CIA station keeper out in Australia.

01:20:20.000 I think I'll call him, and I won't tell him why I'm asking, but I'll ask him about Mount Zeal area.

01:20:26.000 So he gave him a call, and he said, I'd like to ask you about that Mount Zeal area.

01:20:32.000 He said, oh, you mean where the UFOs were always flying around?

01:20:36.000 Whoa.

01:20:37.000 So I thought, oh, gee, you know.

01:20:39.000 So anyway, this was from Pat Price.

01:20:42.000 I take him seriously.

01:20:43.000 Let me give you an anecdote.

01:20:46.000 I know it's hard to believe that some of this stuff could possibly be real.

01:20:51.000 Here was a real game changer for me.

01:20:54.000 One day, Pat Price, during the remote viewing program, came in the office and he said, I got bored last night, so I started looking around and I decided to look at the Oval Office.

01:21:09.000 And as I kind of...

01:21:12.000 Did my way around the Oval Office.

01:21:14.000 I realized there's something in the Oval Office that will harm him and he will not get through his second term.

01:21:24.000 And I'm thinking to myself, oh my God, you know, I have to report that to the CIA contract matter, which I did.

01:21:31.000 And so they sent a team over looking for, you know, hidden microwaves, hidden toxic substances.

01:21:38.000 Well, they didn't come up with anything.

01:21:40.000 Of course, we now know from history, it was the tape recorder that did him in.

01:21:46.000 And he couldn't make it through his second term because he...

01:21:49.000 So this was during the Nixon administration?

01:21:51.000 Yeah, Nixon administration.

01:21:52.000 Wow.

01:21:52.000 And so interestingly enough, when he reported that, they said, oh my God, that means Spiral Agner will be president.

01:22:01.000 Because he was the vice president.

01:22:02.000 And he says, no, he goes first.

01:22:05.000 Now, it turned out he did go first because of some money laundering scheme.

01:22:10.000 So when I sit down and try to say, okay, what are the statistics of having somebody see that a president is going to make it through his next term and his vice president is not going to take over because he goes first?

01:22:25.000 I mean, the odds of that, I mean, there's just no doubt that that means it's really something.

01:22:30.000 Well, especially when you consider Nixon was one of the most popularly elected presidents ever.

01:22:37.000 Right.

01:22:37.000 I mean, he won by an enormous margin.

01:22:40.000 That was the whole where the vice president or the other candidate's vice president had electroshock therapy that hadn't been revealed.

01:22:49.000 Oh, I remember that.

01:22:49.000 Yeah, right.

01:22:50.000 Yeah, and it turned out people were very concerned that he was mentally ill.

01:22:54.000 It was too late to replace him.

01:22:56.000 They didn't know what to do.

01:22:57.000 They finally replaced him, but it was too late.

01:23:00.000 That's right.

01:23:00.000 I remember that.

01:23:01.000 Yeah, that was a big part of the whole thing.

01:23:06.000 Now, one thing you may be surprised to learn, you've asked me from time to time, well, you know, what did I think as I'm facing into all this stuff?

01:23:17.000 We, obviously, as physicists, think about time going forward in a reasonable way.

01:23:24.000 And as I mentioned, the Princeton lab...

01:23:28.000 Got involved.

01:23:30.000 Robert John at Princeton was very good in quantum theory and so on.

01:23:35.000 And he knows that in quantum theory, time is kind of a slippery slope.

01:23:41.000 You know, we have the space-time metric and the possibility of maybe seeing something in the future or something in the past.

01:23:48.000 And so he did a series of remote viewing experiments very much like what we were doing.

01:23:55.000 Sometimes he would have somebody go to a site and then wait a week and have somebody describe where the person went.

01:24:03.000 Or he might have somebody describe where a person went, but the person didn't go until a week later.

01:24:10.000 And so he did a lot of experiments, which, by the way, were good enough.

01:24:15.000 He also got it published in the Proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electronics Engineers, a couple of years after our paper, like 78 or so.

01:24:24.000 And so it turned out that the results, either looking a bit into the future, a bit into the past, the results were just as good.

01:24:34.000 So that sort of helped solve another problem for us because we were always, I mean, I can't blame the skeptics coming forward.

01:24:44.000 In fact, our favorite phrase is, as far as remote viewing goes, there are two outcomes.

01:24:51.000 People investigate it, know it works.

01:24:54.000 People don't and know it can't.

01:24:57.000 So anyway, a big thing that we always got pushed on was, well, if these people are so psychic, why aren't they rich?

01:25:05.000 Why aren't they at Las Vegas?

01:25:07.000 Why aren't they doing silver futures or whatever?

01:25:10.000 Well, it turned out I had a chance to test that because, as it turns out, my wife, Adrienne Kennedy, was on the board of a new...

01:25:23.000 Grammar school that was being set up in the Bay Area where we were at the time.

01:25:27.000 And so I was trying to raise money because they were about $25,000 short.

01:25:36.000 And so I went to a wealthy dentist I knew of and said, you know, would you mind giving $25,000 for this school?

01:25:45.000 It's just being set up.

01:25:47.000 We're short.

01:25:48.000 And he says, no, wait a minute.

01:25:49.000 I know who you are.

01:25:50.000 You have that ESP program over at SRI, don't you?

01:25:53.000 And I said, yeah.

01:25:54.000 He said, tell you what, I do silver futures.

01:25:57.000 If you can get your ESP people to tell me what's happening each day, the next day, in silver futures, I will follow what you tell me, and I'll bet on it,

01:26:13.000 and see if I make money based on that, and tell you what, whatever money I get, I'll give your school 10% of what I make.

01:26:21.000 And don't worry, if I lose money, I won't charge you.

01:26:24.000 So anyway, that was interesting.

01:26:27.000 Well, by now in the program, we recognize that, okay, there's the bell curve, sort of anybody can do it to some degree.

01:26:34.000 So I simply went to the board of directors of the school and said, we're going to go into silver futures to make our missing $25,000.

01:26:48.000 But I'm not going to ask you what you think the market's going to do the next day because that will depend on what you've read or what you hope for or whatever, whatever, whatever.

01:26:57.000 We're going to do something different.

01:26:59.000 I'm going to pick a couple of objects.

01:27:02.000 Objects that are very different from each other.

01:27:04.000 I'm going to label one of them, mark it up.

01:27:07.000 I'm going to label the other one, mark it down.

01:27:10.000 And I want you to describe to me today the object I'm going to show you tomorrow, which will depend on what the market does.

01:27:21.000 And so, okay, and for a crash course, I gave him this.

01:27:28.000 Shortened version of how, you know, don't try to image it, just try to get, it's a visceral thing, how do you feel about it, what's the sort of texture of it, and so on.

01:27:38.000 And, Jamie, can you pull up that first of the, it shows the wooden figurine and the tape measure?

01:27:55.000 If you could show that, yeah.

01:27:58.000 So on a given day, I have two objects, and of course they're different as they can be in case you get a lousy description or whatever.

01:28:04.000 So on a given day, that's a couple of objects I've picked out, and I labeled the one to myself.

01:28:10.000 I labeled the one on the left, mark it up.

01:28:14.000 The one on the right, mark it down.

01:28:17.000 But they have no idea what my objects are.

01:28:22.000 So the next day, you get the following slide.

01:28:30.000 Do you have the following slide?

01:28:32.000 I have a previous slide.

01:28:34.000 Yeah.

01:28:34.000 Is that it?

01:28:35.000 Is that what you're looking for?

01:28:37.000 That's it.

01:28:37.000 Okay.

01:28:38.000 And so I had seven viewers, and on this particular day, five of them didn't turn out much.

01:28:46.000 But one of the viewers said, I've got something all squirreled up in a can, all wound around.

01:28:53.000 And I hear the words, one, two, three, said rhythmically.

01:28:58.000 The second guy, same thing.

01:29:00.000 A can, all something, all the other.

01:29:01.000 So that's what I go with.

01:29:03.000 Anyway, to make a long story short, 30 days in the market, we made $260,000 for the investor.

01:29:09.000 We got our 10%, which is $26,000.

01:29:12.000 So we got a bit of a bonus there for the school.

01:29:15.000 Why didn't you guys keep going and get rich?

01:29:18.000 Well, that, I know.

01:29:19.000 Everybody asked me that.

01:29:20.000 The truth of the matter, it was...

01:29:22.000 It was almost a 24-hour-a-day job to do this.

01:29:26.000 And meanwhile, we're back over at the lab training Army intelligence remote viewers how to remote view.

01:29:33.000 Clearly, that wasn't your ambition.

01:29:35.000 Your ambition was not to get rich.

01:29:37.000 But you proved your point.

01:29:38.000 But I proved my point.

01:29:39.000 So now, when going...

01:29:44.000 Into the future, you're reasonably certain that these things, this is a real phenomenon.

01:29:49.000 Do you ever get access to these materials that you were discussing earlier?

01:29:54.000 Have you ever seen anything?

01:29:57.000 Yes, I have.

01:30:01.000 One example I can talk about, one sample I can talk about is...

01:30:05.000 Are there things you can't talk about?

01:30:07.000 There are things I can't talk about, right.

01:30:09.000 But there's one sample I can talk about, which you could put up on the screen.

01:30:13.000 That would be that layer.

01:30:14.000 This right here?

01:30:15.000 Yeah, right.

01:30:17.000 It turns out that an Army person said that his grandfather had been involved in picking up debris from the Roswell crash.

01:30:28.000 And so he sent it, of all places, he sent it to Art Bell.

01:30:37.000 Of the radio podcast, the great Art Bell.

01:30:42.000 So Art Bell turned it over to Linda Howe.

01:30:46.000 So she's got it.

01:30:49.000 So she said she'd make it available and so on.

01:30:53.000 So about this time, I had already had my viewpoint shifted, as I say, by Ed.

01:31:07.000 Edward Teller about, you know, we should have more openness going on.

01:31:12.000 And so, in fact, Tom DeLonge came along and, you know, the punk rock Bleak 182 and said, you know, we should be...

01:31:22.000 By the way, this is before even things came out in the New York Times in December 2017.

01:31:27.000 He says, "You know, I've been talking to people at some aerospace corporations and they're saying how hard it is to get students to do their engineering and come to work for us." And so he said, "Well, you know, if there's anything to quote the UFO

01:31:42.000 area, you know, maybe it could generate some interest that way." And so, long story short, he got Jim Simivan, now retired high-level person at CIA, got

01:31:56.000 Keep that up, Jay.

01:32:01.000 So anyway, we started To The Stars Academy of Arts and Science.

01:32:05.000 And so we were part of what was behind helping Leslie Keen get that story out in the New York Times.

01:32:13.000 To break out that something was really going on behind the scenes.

01:32:16.000 Back to this material, this seems to be layered.

01:32:19.000 So anyway, on this material, she came up with this material.

01:32:21.000 How big is this, what we're looking at?

01:32:23.000 Oh, it's about this big.

01:32:24.000 So four inches, something like that?

01:32:26.000 Yeah, pretty big.

01:32:27.000 And so it's got all these layers.

01:32:29.000 So on the one hand, you could say, well, this is just a guy sitting in at some stuff.

01:32:34.000 There's no chain of custody.

01:32:36.000 You don't know if he's a fraud making it up or whatever.

01:32:39.000 But anyway, it turns out those are layers of titanium and bismuth.

01:32:44.000 So anyway, Tom DeLonge got a hold of a copy, and so we said, okay, we're going to do everything we can to nail this down.

01:32:53.000 So we actually set up a contract with an Army office, and then they...

01:33:01.000 Arranged for ARO, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, to consider taking this seriously.

01:33:12.000 And so they arranged that this could be analyzed by Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

01:33:20.000 And so we provided this to them to analyze.

01:33:24.000 And what were the results?

01:33:26.000 Well, the results were that...

01:33:29.000 There's no obvious proof that it comes from out of our solar system because there are various isotopes that would be different if it came from some other solar system.

01:33:39.000 So that would be the first thing you'd look for to say, oh, this really is ET.

01:33:44.000 So that didn't wash.

01:33:46.000 The second part, though, was a little more interesting, and that is these layers of magnesium and bismuth, I mean, those are the size of a human hair, some of those layers.

01:33:57.000 And they said, well, we can't find any evidence in the history of development of materials, of materials like that, and can't even imagine why anybody wanted to make it.

01:34:10.000 So it's just, it's an anomaly.

01:34:13.000 So, no proof that it's ET, but one of the things we did do, he says, okay, well, how hard is it to make something like this?

01:34:22.000 And so we got an aerospace corporation to say, can you bond Mismuth and Magnesium together, you know, sort of like what we see in this sample.

01:34:32.000 Well, they got two layers bonded, cost them over a million dollars, broke down their instruments to do it.

01:34:41.000 So it's still basically a mystery.

01:34:43.000 So we got to read the report.

01:34:46.000 It was not totally...

01:34:52.000 Provided to the public.

01:34:53.000 So is this about a quarter inch thick?

01:34:55.000 Is that what we're looking at here?

01:34:56.000 Yeah.

01:34:57.000 So how many layers did they estimate?

01:35:00.000 I think we had, it might have been 18, something like that.

01:35:05.000 We could probably count them.

01:35:08.000 So anyway, so that's a possible example.

01:35:15.000 No conclusion we come to.

01:35:16.000 So this is something that is of terrestrial origin in terms of materials when you measure the isotopes, but it's of a construction method that's not currently available.

01:35:26.000 That is a perfect description of the situation.

01:35:31.000 And by the way, it certainly wasn't available back in the '40s and '50s when this supposedly was found.

01:35:36.000 Supposedly.

01:35:37.000 That's the problem.

01:35:38.000 So this was analyzed in what year?

01:35:41.000 Well, analyses started taking place by Linda Howe at other laboratories, I think, in the years, in the 2000s.

01:35:52.000 As you go back.

01:35:53.000 Yeah, we got it, I don't know, maybe 2020, something like that.

01:36:03.000 But whoever, if the chain of custody is accurate.

01:36:08.000 We got it analyzed only a couple years ago.

01:36:11.000 But if the chain of custody is accurate, it goes back far enough where this is impossible.

01:36:16.000 Right, right.

01:36:17.000 And seemingly, given the effort that the Aerospace Corporation put in, they can't even manufacture this today.

01:36:26.000 Right.

01:36:27.000 In that level.

01:36:28.000 This Roswell crash is the big one, right?

01:36:31.000 That's the one that everybody knows about.

01:36:33.000 And it was in 1947 in Roswell, Mexico.

01:36:36.000 And the wreckage was flown in two separate planes to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which is unusual in and of itself.

01:36:43.000 And the idea was that it's flown in two planes just in case one goes down.

01:36:47.000 This stuff is so important that we have to analyze it.

01:36:51.000 That's correct.

01:36:53.000 What do you think that was?

01:36:56.000 I think it was a true non-human intelligence craft that crashed.

01:37:10.000 We've talked to one of my colleagues, Eric Davis, is one of my senior scientific advisors.

01:37:18.000 He interviewed General Exxon, who had been head of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and so on.

01:37:26.000 And also DuBose.

01:37:29.000 So he's interviewed a couple of people that were involved back in those days.

01:37:34.000 And they say it was the real deal.

01:37:37.000 That this was a real unidentifiable crash.

01:37:42.000 And these materials were really, really from out someplace.

01:37:50.000 And what did they say was done with the wreckage?

01:37:53.000 That had been taken to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base for analysis.

01:37:58.000 And did anything come out of that analysis?

01:38:01.000 Not that the public would hear about.

01:38:04.000 Not that you can disclose?

01:38:06.000 Not that I could disclose.

01:38:08.000 That's where it gets frustrating.

01:38:10.000 Well, I guess it gets frustrating even for, I mean, the compartmentalization in this area is really obscene.

01:38:18.000 So you can have people sitting at this desk and someone else sitting.

01:38:23.000 In that chair.

01:38:25.000 And I can't tell him what I'm working on.

01:38:28.000 He can't tell me what he's working on.

01:38:30.000 So that's our going forward with this is very, very slow and not opportune, I would have to say.

01:38:41.000 And, of course, we have data.

01:38:43.000 Can't go into detail.

01:38:44.000 We have data about crashes in other countries.

01:38:47.000 So it's really clear that we're not the only ones on the planet.

01:38:52.000 So that's something to be concerned about because, for example, here we have our capitalistic competition, aerospace corporations, electronics corporations, all being very hushed up and not sharing anything.

01:39:09.000 Which stifles innovation.

01:39:10.000 Stifles innovation.

01:39:12.000 Meanwhile, in China, you put all the labs on something like this and say, and by the way, don't say anything outside that you're not supposed to say.

01:39:20.000 You're done.

01:39:22.000 And so the competition that potentially could be happening.

01:39:27.000 They're unhindered.

01:39:27.000 Yeah.

01:39:27.000 So that's part of what's behind our not revealing what we've learned because there might be some aspect that we've learned which in principle you'd think, well, you could reveal, but it might be the missing piece that some potential adversary said,

01:39:44.000 oh, that's what we've been missing.

01:39:46.000 Right.

01:39:47.000 So even though, generally speaking, I'm of the feeling that there should be more disclosure, I'm also very tight on anything that could be potentially helpful to an adversary in this area.

01:40:05.000 We're not going to reveal that would be a mistake.

01:40:08.000 How do these things keep crashing if they're so good?

01:40:11.000 If they can get here from somewhere else, why do they slam into the desert?

01:40:17.000 Some of them have just been left in the desert, not crashed.

01:40:24.000 Some of them?

01:40:26.000 Some of them have just...

01:40:27.000 I talked to Diana Pasolko about this.

01:40:29.000 Oh, okay.

01:40:30.000 And she refers to them as donations.

01:40:32.000 She said that's how they were described to her.

01:40:35.000 Yeah, so in fact, maybe some of them are donations to help us accelerate our forward motion.

01:40:46.000 Maybe they donate something here, something in China, something in Russia, and see who is best at moving forward, just as part of their ISR evaluation of this.

01:41:00.000 I mean, let's face it.

01:41:02.000 We've had, as is known in the public, we've had UFOs come over our missile silos.

01:41:12.000 One at Malmstrom Air Force Base that Salas has talked about, Bob Salas.

01:41:18.000 They turned off all of our missiles.

01:41:21.000 There's no way it could be launched.

01:41:23.000 In Russia, there's even a worse case.

01:41:26.000 They started the launch sequence in Russia at a missile silo, nuclear missile silo.

01:41:33.000 And the people at the location could not stop it, could not turn it off.

01:41:39.000 So they thought, you know.

01:41:41.000 World War III is about to stop.

01:41:42.000 Fortunately, it was turned off.

01:41:45.000 So anyway, you've got two things.

01:41:47.000 So whoever was doing that, whoever was manipulating it, turned it off.

01:41:51.000 That's right.

01:41:52.000 So there's a big question.

01:41:54.000 There are two ways to look at that.

01:41:56.000 They're friendly and benign, and they just want us to know that if we get too frisky down here and think about having a nuclear war, they can stop it.

01:42:04.000 Or they might not be benign.

01:42:08.000 And the Armada is on its way, and they just want to test that they can stop our use of nuclear weapons against them.

01:42:14.000 So it's, from a security standpoint, from a DOD standpoint, from an intelligence community standpoint, you always have to have the worst scenario in your mind.

01:42:25.000 Right.

01:42:26.000 And see where you go.

01:42:28.000 Yeah.

01:42:29.000 Well, I would imagine from a security standpoint, it's a nightmare, because you're not secure at all.

01:42:35.000 If something can fly over your airspace and you can't do anything about it and it can shut down your missiles or turn them on, you're in a very strange situation.

01:42:45.000 That's true.

01:42:46.000 Where you're completely helpless, dependent upon the whim of these beings.

01:42:52.000 Exactly.

01:42:53.000 Or whatever their mandate is, whatever they're trying to do.

01:42:56.000 Right.

01:42:56.000 What do you think they're trying to do here?

01:43:02.000 I have thoughts going in many directions in answer to that question.

01:43:09.000 All the way from, well, they see this here, you know, millennia ago, and they're just seeing how their petri dish is doing.

01:43:18.000 Human beings are the product of accelerated evolution.

01:43:20.000 Yeah, something like that.

01:43:24.000 But, I mean...

01:43:26.000 It's really hard to know.

01:43:27.000 I mean, it may be that we're a very special planet because we have all this water, which, generally speaking, is kind of rare.

01:43:35.000 So, you know, maybe they'd like to slowly build up a connection with us so that they could take advantage of direct access to some of our resources.

01:43:47.000 Don't know.

01:43:48.000 By and large, interactions have not been...

01:43:54.000 What you might call negative.

01:43:57.000 I mean, even when we shoot missiles at them or whatever.

01:44:01.000 But there were a series of events in Calaris Island in Brazil back in the 80s, I think it was.

01:44:12.000 And as part of our program, we investigated that in some detail, where over some long period, like weeks, And the Brazilian Air Force got involved.

01:44:27.000 They got a thousand hours of film and they put a big Air Force group down there.

01:44:37.000 And the UFOs were coming over and sending out beams that were actually harming people.

01:44:43.000 That's our one example that stands out of there being apparent experience.

01:44:52.000 Episodes where UFOs, there's no way to interpret it but as negative.

01:44:59.000 So that makes you wonder, well, maybe there's just one particular group of...

01:45:03.000 Right.

01:45:04.000 ...euthonauts that are negatively disposed, but the rest of them are okay.

01:45:09.000 So anyway, that's...

01:45:10.000 Well, they're probably just like humans in that regard, right?

01:45:13.000 There's humans that are involved in scientific research expeditions.

01:45:17.000 They go there not looking to do any harm at all.

01:45:19.000 And then there's humans that will go into an area where they're looking to extract resources.

01:45:24.000 And all they want to do is do that, and anything that gets in their way, you know, is casualties.

01:45:31.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:45:32.000 So there's a lot, I mean, it's still a big area that needs a lot of...

01:45:41.000 And interestingly enough, even though this has been a tinfoil hat crowd kind of thing up until around 2017 when that New York Times story came out, suddenly that really made a difference because the people that were coming on board,

01:46:01.000 that there's something real here, were people like Senator Harry Reid and other senators and so on.

01:46:07.000 And so that sort of broke an open that, okay, there really is something here.

01:46:12.000 And so as a result of that, that's how some of these programs have gotten pushed forward and reignited.

01:46:20.000 How many of these crash crafts do you estimate there are that human beings have recovered?

01:46:30.000 More than 10. More than 10?

01:46:33.000 More than 10. How many of them are in...

01:46:35.000 Possession of people in the United States?

01:46:39.000 I'm at more than 10 in possession of the United States.

01:46:43.000 What about worldwide?

01:46:45.000 Worldwide?

01:46:46.000 Do we have any data on that?

01:46:48.000 We have data, but it's classified.

01:46:51.000 There's no way to really talk about it.

01:46:54.000 So there's more, though.

01:46:56.000 You could safely say it's not just the ones in the United States.

01:46:59.000 Not just the ones in the United States.

01:47:01.000 Are they equally distributed?

01:47:03.000 I don't know.

01:47:09.000 Actually, I don't know for sure in terms of data.

01:47:13.000 I mean, we have our best data, of course, on our own retrievals.

01:47:19.000 But more than 10 retrieved in the United States.

01:47:22.000 More than 10 retrieved in the United States.

01:47:23.000 What is your take on Bob Lazar?

01:47:27.000 Well, we looked into the Bob Lazar story, but only from a certain relatively superficial level.

01:47:37.000 We found out what his clearance levels supposedly were and so on, which came back saying it was not high enough to...

01:47:48.000 On the other hand, it may just simply be, yeah, it was better than that, but we didn't have the access to see that.

01:47:57.000 So when I hear his physics descriptions, it's a puzzle.

01:48:03.000 It seems...

01:48:05.000 Not exactly as I would anticipate might be the technology behind the craft, but I can't absolutely write them off.

01:48:15.000 So it's just an enigma, and I don't have any hard data to prove one way or the other.

01:48:23.000 So I know you've talked to them.

01:48:25.000 Yeah.

01:48:27.000 It's a fascinating puzzle.

01:48:28.000 It is a fascinating puzzle.

01:48:29.000 Because that would be the place, S4 would be the place where they would do that kind of work.

01:48:36.000 I mean, if you wanted to do something like that in complete privacy and secrecy, you'd do it in the middle of the Nevada desert, very protected.

01:48:42.000 That's true.

01:48:43.000 Outside of Area 51. So even when people that have high clearances go and say, well, tell me about this.

01:48:51.000 What's behind this?

01:48:52.000 Who knows?

01:48:53.000 If it's a special access program, an SAP, it might be, say, no, we're going to tell you that he didn't do anything of significance here.

01:49:02.000 In fact, he might have done something of significance.

01:49:05.000 There's just no way of telling from the outside.

01:49:08.000 Yeah.

01:49:09.000 So the actual...

01:49:13.000 Generator, the thing that powers the craft that Lazar talked about.

01:49:17.000 What was your take on that, this idea that it was element 115, that when it encounters high radiation, it has some sort of an anti-gravitational effect, some warp effect?

01:49:29.000 Well, there are two aspects.

01:49:32.000 One is, what is the material or mechanisms that generate the effects?

01:49:39.000 Then the other is...

01:49:41.000 Are the effects being described reasonable descriptions of the kind of effects you think are associated with such craft?

01:49:50.000 On the element 115, as you know, in the general scientific community, we've seen element 115, but it's very short-lived, so it's hard to evaluate.

01:50:01.000 And at this point, there's no evidence that that's it.

01:50:05.000 So we should explain to people.

01:50:07.000 It was theoretical at one point until they detected it using...

01:50:11.000 Was it a Large Hadron Collider or another particle collider?

01:50:14.000 You know, right now, I think it was a particle collider in the Soviet Union or in Russia.

01:50:19.000 And it's very short-lasting.

01:50:23.000 But the idea is that what Lazar was in possession of or what the craft was powered by was some sort of a stable version of element 115.

01:50:31.000 That's what he says.

01:50:32.000 So in general, it was known and predicted that there was an island of stability, as we call it, on some of these higher elements in the periodic table that are beyond uranium and so on.

01:50:50.000 But really no data predicted as to what their lifetimes would be.

01:50:57.000 And so element 115 is in that bunch.

01:51:00.000 And when he first discussed it, it hadn't been seen yet.

01:51:04.000 Or this is way back in 1989.

01:51:06.000 Way back, that's right.

01:51:07.000 But eventually that element was detected, although the version of it that was detected had a very short lifetime.

01:51:15.000 But, of course, there may be some other isotope of that element that could have a long lifetime.

01:51:21.000 Who knows?

01:51:22.000 So it's just hard.

01:51:25.000 But his description of the anti-gravity effects and so on, that's an area that is well described as what you might expect.

01:51:42.000 As it turns out in that series of 38 papers, one of my own papers, That I provided was one called space-time metric engineering.

01:51:53.000 And when the pilots came to me and said, you know, drops down, takes off, right angle turn at Mach 10, you know, this is way beyond our physics.

01:52:06.000 And I said earlier, no, I think it's not beyond our physics, it's beyond our engineering.

01:52:10.000 But what I did on the physics level was...

01:52:13.000 All of our electronics that we have here, for example, this microphone, the recording that you're making, and so that's all based on electromagnetic kinds of technologies, all of which come out of Maxwell's equations.

01:52:27.000 Maxwell's equations, Clerk Maxwell, way back in the 1800s, developed the equations for electromagnetism, and basically any kind of electromagnetic device, you name it, Wi-Fi, Whatever.

01:52:44.000 It can be traced back to this equation.

01:52:47.000 So what I said to myself was, okay, we have these apparent craft operating with this unbelievable kinds of activity.

01:52:58.000 Is there any way to account for that in our physics?

01:53:00.000 Well, it turns out.

01:53:01.000 So what I did, I took a sheet of paper, and the left-hand side of the paper, I wrote down all the weird effects that have been claimed.

01:53:09.000 You know, right angle turn at Mach 10. I got close to the craft and suddenly it wasn't the same size as it seemed to be when I was further away.

01:53:23.000 It was a certain color.

01:53:26.000 But when I got close to it, it was a different color.

01:53:29.000 All these weird things.

01:53:30.000 To me, the weirder the better, because if somebody was just making up a BS story, they want it to sound rational.

01:53:38.000 So you don't come up with things like, well, I got in the craft, five minutes went by, I came out, and two hours had gone by.

01:53:44.000 I mean, you know, you're just not going to make that up.

01:53:47.000 Then on the right-hand side of the piece of paper, I said, okay, we have Einstein's equations in general relativity.

01:53:54.000 And we use them to talk about black hole mergers or neutron star mergers or whatever.

01:54:01.000 And all these things are massively energetic events.

01:54:06.000 Suppose I could engineer Einstein's equations the way we engineer Maxwell's equations for electromagnetic effects.

01:54:14.000 What would I expect to see?

01:54:16.000 And I find out I got a hand-in-glove match.

01:54:21.000 Between what was claiming to be observed and, you know, what Einstein's equation, if you could engineer them, well, why can't we engineer them?

01:54:31.000 Well, at least what we know today is the energy density required to engineer those equations is just way beyond our ability to do so.

01:54:41.000 Can you give me a comparison to what the energy requirements or something like that would be like?

01:54:46.000 Yeah, people have, in fact...

01:54:50.000 Alcubierre warp drive, I don't know if you've heard of that, but Miguel Alcubierre was a researcher in general relativity and kind of a Star Trek fan and so on.

01:55:01.000 He said, I wonder if we could really have warp drive.

01:55:04.000 And so he used Einstein's equations to say, okay, under what conditions could we do a warp drive?

01:55:12.000 And he actually came up with solutions from out of the equations.

01:55:16.000 Okay, what would it take to drive that?

01:55:19.000 Oh, it would be hundreds of times more than the energy of the sun.

01:55:24.000 I mean, just out-of-sight energy.

01:55:28.000 So, you know, until we have a new energy source or until there's some backdoor that we haven't, you know, stewarded in on, it's just really outside of our...

01:55:45.000 There could be conceivably some breakthrough and an understanding of this backdoor, like whatever it could be, some new type of science, new kind of understanding.

01:55:57.000 And one of the things that I've looked into myself is, well, what about vacuum energy, so-called?

01:56:06.000 As a quantum physicist, we all know that...

01:56:11.000 You know, you push a kid in a swing and it comes down and stops.

01:56:17.000 But at the quantum level, you get something going.

01:56:20.000 It doesn't stop.

01:56:22.000 It always comes down to a certain level and it's still there.

01:56:25.000 So it turns out that what we call empty space is not really empty.

01:56:30.000 It's full of quantum fluctuations.

01:56:33.000 And in fact, one of the difficulties of modern physics theory is that when we go...

01:56:40.000 By using our standard quantum theory to calculate, well, what's the energy density like right here or way out in empty space?

01:56:48.000 What's the energy density of those quantum fluctuations?

01:56:51.000 It's 120 orders of magnitude greater than could possibly be according to all of our other theories.

01:57:00.000 I mean, it would collapse gravity and everything else.

01:57:02.000 So we have this conundrum that that energy...

01:57:08.000 That is everywhere.

01:57:10.000 Somehow all is random and cancels out.

01:57:13.000 So, you know, it's just not having an effect.

01:57:17.000 So the idea is if you can somehow access that energy and cohere it, so to speak, maybe you could get to the energy.

01:57:27.000 What would that look like?

01:57:34.000 Well, if I go off on...

01:57:36.000 A weird tangent.

01:57:39.000 I could tell you what it might look like.

01:57:43.000 Along the way in the remote viewing program where we're kind of looking at physical effects, we decided to take a look at so-called levitating saints.

01:57:59.000 And so, you know, you think, okay, well, that's a Catholic church trying to pretend it's got these magical people and whatever, whatever.

01:58:08.000 But when you dig into the data, you find that that isn't it.

01:58:12.000 It's that the church hated the idea that some...

01:58:18.000 Individuals were levitating because they might be in the middle of giving Mass and suddenly they float up or whatever.

01:58:26.000 So it turns out that even looking in the deep literature of the Inquisition and so on, the evidence is really solid that there have been levitating saints.

01:58:40.000 And what the Catholic Church usually did is they squirreled them off into some monastery where nobody would see them.

01:58:45.000 When you say levitating, what do you mean?

01:58:47.000 How far off the ground?

01:58:50.000 Sometimes...

01:58:50.000 Jamie's got something here.

01:58:52.000 Notable example happened during a visit to Italy from the Spanish ambassador.

01:58:56.000 The ambassador had visited Joseph in his monastic cell and was so impressed that he wanted to return with his wife.

01:59:03.000 Joseph entered the church where the couple hoped to meet him and upon seeing the statue of Mary, elevated 10 feet into the air, flew over the crowd to the statue, prayed, flew back to the door and returned home.

01:59:17.000 The church later took deposition.

01:59:19.000 What year was this?

01:59:26.000 1628.

01:59:28.000 1628.

01:59:30.000 There are enough stories like that with lots of observers and the reporting under really excellent conditions.

01:59:38.000 Okay, now that guy didn't have a nuclear power pack on his back.

01:59:43.000 So how did that happen?

01:59:45.000 Well, the only thing I can think of in terms of the physics we know today would be that somehow the vacuum energy, which can be very high if you cohered it.

01:59:58.000 And if you made it non-random, you know, maybe that could do it.

02:00:03.000 So perhaps he was able to access this with states of consciousness because he was so devout in his faith that upon seeing this, the experience was so overwhelming that he was somehow able to access this energy.

02:00:16.000 Right, and that ecstatic state is...

02:00:19.000 But it would take this extreme belief, this extreme commitment, this...

02:00:25.000 A state of mind that's very rare.

02:00:28.000 Exactly.

02:00:30.000 That's what it would take.

02:00:31.000 And you would follow that when you did the experiments with the quantum chip.

02:00:37.000 You would say, well, if someone is able to control oscillations, you're doing something with your mind that shouldn't be possible.

02:00:43.000 Right.

02:00:43.000 And you're affecting a physical thing that shouldn't be possible.

02:00:47.000 And this is just...

02:00:50.000 Someone who never thought of doing that before, someone who didn't know that they were going...

02:00:54.000 So this is a physical manifestation of the power of whatever unknown ability of the human mind.

02:01:04.000 So since it's unknown, there's no way we would know how to tap it.

02:01:10.000 Right.

02:01:11.000 And if these are very unique moments where this is an extremely devout person who obviously was a monk...

02:01:18.000 Was probably meditating and achieving this insane state of consciousness that's almost impossible to get to unless you're committed as long as he was, unless you're as dedicated as he was, and then he has this overwhelming moment.

02:01:32.000 Right.

02:01:33.000 And have no way to, you know, connect the physics to it.

02:01:38.000 But the idea is that if there is energy that's allowing a person using their mind to do this, that somehow or another of this energy could be accessed.

02:01:47.000 Through science, through physics, through engineering.

02:01:50.000 We tried to look into that.

02:01:52.000 For example, Andrei Sakharov, a very famous Soviet physicist, said, you know, I don't think gravity is its own thing.

02:02:03.000 I think really it's a manifestation of the underlying quantum fluctuations.

02:02:09.000 And so I and some colleagues from Lockheed Martin and elsewhere...

02:02:17.000 Kind of looked into that option.

02:02:20.000 And, you know, if we're just sitting here talking and so on, you know, the universe is full of quantum fluctuations.

02:02:34.000 Why don't I notice it?

02:02:36.000 On the other hand, if you get into your fast-moving car and you suddenly take off, you're pressed back in your seat.

02:02:45.000 Well, what is it that's pressing you back?

02:02:48.000 I mean, it isn't the wind.

02:02:49.000 You've got a windshield and a cover.

02:02:51.000 Well, there's some modeling that says, well, maybe it's because if you try to accelerate through the vacuum fluctuations, it will push back on you.

02:03:01.000 So that might be our first little touch that, okay, under conditions of acceleration, we do notice the background vacuum fluctuations.

02:03:14.000 Well, since to a theorist, inertia and gravity are connected somehow, then it makes you think, okay, well, maybe there's some way of accessing vacuum fluctuations to control gravity.

02:03:27.000 That's what we would like to think.

02:03:29.000 And so one of the things we did in the program was just collect every bit of data that we could.

02:03:36.000 So, for example, when I went through my analysis of, well, if we could...

02:03:43.000 Engineer general relativity, what we'd expect to see, a number of things came out of it.

02:03:48.000 So, for example, in this room, most of the electromagnetic energy we don't see.

02:03:54.000 It's in the form of heat.

02:03:57.000 And we don't see heat.

02:03:59.000 You know, if you get an infrared detector, you can see it, but we don't see heat.

02:04:03.000 Well, it turns out that under the conditions in which you're controlling gravity the way...

02:04:11.000 These craft appear to be doing.

02:04:14.000 One of the consequences and one of the attributes that goes along with it is that frequencies get raised.

02:04:21.000 And so the heat of a craft that you ordinarily wouldn't see can get raised up into the visible spectrum.

02:04:31.000 And so that's why they might look so bright.

02:04:35.000 That also has certain other digital consequences.

02:04:39.000 If it's powered up and it's sitting there in the ground and you get too close, the ordinary heat spectrum, which isn't harmful, or the visible spectrum, which isn't harmful, can be shifted up frequency into the ultraviolet and soft x-ray.

02:04:55.000 So if you get too close to a landing craft that's powered up, you might get a sunburn, which is one of the things that has been reported.

02:05:02.000 Or you might actually, in fact, get...

02:05:05.000 Radiation poisoning from x-rays and so on.

02:05:10.000 So those kinds of things seem to go hand in hand and give us some clues of where to look.

02:05:16.000 What does your take on the Travis Walton story?

02:05:19.000 I think the Travis Walton story is right on.

02:05:23.000 I think that's a solid story.

02:05:26.000 I don't have any specific...

02:05:29.000 I have a bobblehead.

02:05:30.000 It's a Travis Walton bobblehead.

02:05:32.000 Oh yes, okay.

02:05:33.000 That's him.

02:05:34.000 He gave it to me.

02:05:35.000 I see.

02:05:36.000 Okay.

02:05:36.000 No, I think all aspects that I've seen of his story, I take that as...

02:05:41.000 For people that don't know the story, I'll give you a brief synopsis, a brief breakdown of what it was.

02:05:46.000 They're loggers.

02:05:47.000 They're driving through Arizona.

02:05:49.000 They see this craft moving through the sky, and it goes into the woods.

02:05:54.000 Travis gets out of the truck, runs towards it, gets too close to it, and is hit with some sort of a beam.

02:06:01.000 Flies back, falls down.

02:06:03.000 The other guys panic.

02:06:04.000 They take off in the truck.

02:06:05.000 And as they're taking off, they're arguing that they need to go back and get him.

02:06:08.000 We need to go help him.

02:06:10.000 We need to go back and get him.

02:06:11.000 They're all freaked out.

02:06:12.000 They decide, yeah, we got to go back.

02:06:13.000 So they turn around and he's gone.

02:06:15.000 They get back to the spot.

02:06:17.000 The craft is gone.

02:06:18.000 Travis is gone.

02:06:19.000 They reported.

02:06:20.000 Everyone's freaking out.

02:06:22.000 No one knows.

02:06:22.000 They suspect they might have killed him or something.

02:06:25.000 Five days later, Travis appears, wearing the same clothes, looking none the worse for wear with this fantastic story that they took him aboard this craft and they communicated with him and fixed his body.

02:06:36.000 That something happened to him upon the impact of whatever that ray was that hit him.

02:06:42.000 That he was going to die.

02:06:43.000 They repaired him.

02:06:44.000 And they communicated with him and brought him back.

02:06:48.000 Five days later, he has this story.

02:06:50.000 And he's had the same story for decades.

02:06:53.000 And one of the reasons I accept that story is that, for example, the other people who left the site and then went back, they eventually did polygraphs on them, and they passed the polygraphs.

02:07:06.000 I mean, they weren't making up that story.

02:07:08.000 Polygraphs are manipulatable.

02:07:10.000 You can manipulate a polygraph, though.

02:07:11.000 Well, yeah, you can, but would I expect that some unsophisticated loggers would do it?

02:07:16.000 No.

02:07:16.000 Particularly one of the guys didn't even like Travis.

02:07:19.000 One of the guys, Travis, got into a fistfight with the actual day of the event.

02:07:23.000 Oh, my.

02:07:25.000 Yeah, and he also told the exact same story.

02:07:27.000 Right.

02:07:28.000 Yeah, so there was a lot going on with that one.

02:07:31.000 And then there had been frequent sightings in that one particular area, which is also weird.

02:07:36.000 Like, what is it about certain areas?

02:07:39.000 I mean, there's the area that you discussed in Australia.

02:07:42.000 Well, that would kind of make sense if there really is a base somewhere.

02:07:48.000 You know, and the real thought that keeps...

02:07:51.000 Getting brought about in the zeitgeist is the ocean.

02:07:55.000 That's what people bring up all the time.

02:07:57.000 If you wanted to hide in plain sight, where would you hide?

02:07:59.000 Well, you'd hide in three-quarters of the Earth's surface that we very rarely examine.

02:08:03.000 And the observation of UFOs coming up, non-human intelligence craft coming up out of the ocean, they're all over the place.

02:08:14.000 So Tim Gaudelet, who's an ex-Navy admiral who had...

02:08:20.000 He's a Navy Admiral, now retired, who was in charge of NOAA, the National Oceanographic, whatever it's called.

02:08:29.000 He's really big on the idea of collecting data about UFOs emerging from the water.

02:08:37.000 And so it seems like the data on that is just all over the place.

02:08:45.000 Observing UFOs in the water, zooming by submarines at 400 knots, 500 knots or whatever, without any cavitation.

02:08:58.000 So the data, we're buried in data, really.

02:09:03.000 We're just not buried in how to explain it.

02:09:09.000 Have any of these remote viewers tried to look at the bottom of the ocean?

02:09:19.000 Not that I'm aware of.

02:09:21.000 Why wouldn't they do that?

02:09:22.000 Now, remote viewers have zeroed in on UFOs, although it turns out not at the bottom of the ocean.

02:09:28.000 Let me give you an example.

02:09:32.000 But we should probably do that.

02:09:34.000 I mean, since now these days I'm not involved in the remote viewing programs, so maybe there are some.

02:09:41.000 But there are remote viewing programs that are still going on right now?

02:09:45.000 I would say that's likely.

02:09:47.000 I mean, you have an asset that works to some degree.

02:09:52.000 Even though it's dismissed publicly.

02:09:54.000 Even though it's dismissed publicly.

02:09:56.000 So even after the SRI program got shut down, and after I came out to Austin in, what, 85 to set up EarthTech International and the Institute for Advanced Studies in Austin,

02:10:15.000 Starting to pursue my physics stuff because I really wanted to pursue my physics.

02:10:18.000 I didn't want to stay in looking at remote viewing forever.

02:10:21.000 But I got calls from a certain intelligence agency asking me if I'd be willing to set up another program in remote viewing.

02:10:32.000 And so I figured, okay, I turned them down because I liked it.

02:10:37.000 The change I had made.

02:10:38.000 So if they asked me that, chances are they asked somebody else that, and they've probably got somebody to agree to do it.

02:10:44.000 And from time to time, many of the remote viewers that we trained in Army NSCOM, for example, have now retired from the Army, and they're teaching remote viewing classes,

02:11:01.000 and they often get tasked.

02:11:05.000 By somebody back in the intelligence community to check out something.

02:11:10.000 I mean, they've been very prolific in, for example, detecting, say, cargo ships coming across the ocean where certain containers are full of dope.

02:11:25.000 Really?

02:11:26.000 That's been released on the CIA site about remote viewing results, and so you can find it.

02:11:35.000 Of course, I tell any remote viewers I know, you know, don't want to advertise that because you don't want cartels putting up.

02:11:43.000 Check on your back, so.

02:11:45.000 Yeah, but what I'm interested in is the possibility of things under the ocean.

02:11:51.000 And I would imagine if I was running a remote viewing program and I had suspicions that there's activity under the ocean, like that craft that was seen that goes 500 knots under the water, that I would start looking under there.

02:12:04.000 I can well imagine that somebody is...

02:12:06.000 But you're just not aware of anything.

02:12:07.000 I'm just not aware of it.

02:12:09.000 There's this structure that exists off the coast of California at the bottom of the ocean that looks very odd.

02:12:16.000 It looks very constructed.

02:12:18.000 It looks man-made or intelligent in its construction.

02:12:24.000 And I was just looking at something on Google Earth the other day where people are having a hard time finding it now.

02:12:28.000 And they're thinking that it's perhaps obscured.

02:12:31.000 Obscured, yeah.

02:12:32.000 See if you can find that.

02:12:34.000 I know what you're talking about.

02:12:36.000 You saw it as well?

02:12:36.000 I saw it as well, and it was certainly interesting.

02:12:39.000 It looked very weird.

02:12:41.000 You know, it looked like some sort of a bass.

02:12:45.000 It was flat on the top, and it looked like it had openings in it.

02:12:49.000 Let's see, I lost your sound.

02:12:51.000 Oh, you did?

02:12:53.000 Jamie, maybe it's your headphones, or did you step on something?

02:13:00.000 You hear me now?

02:13:02.000 No.

02:13:02.000 I mean, I just hear you through the air.

02:13:04.000 We're going to take a break right now because I've got to use the restroom anyway, and Jamie will fix it, and we'll be right back. 0.85

02:13:08.000 Had a little tactical snafu.

02:13:10.000 Use the restroom, and we're back.

02:13:13.000 So I forget exactly where we're at, but I know where I wanted to go.

02:13:17.000 Where I wanted to go is we're talking about potential sources of energy, potential sources of propulsion systems.

02:13:29.000 Do you consider the possibility that the things that people are seeing are ours?

02:13:35.000 They're made in some top-secret program using some advanced propulsion system, some advanced energy system that is not publicly disclosed?

02:13:48.000 I wouldn't rule out the fact that we may have some pretty fancy things running from our own labs.

02:13:58.000 What gets developed in the dark labs, some of which I know about, are really advanced, but it just can't cover the whole observation that we're seeing with what we call NHI craft,

02:14:14.000 non-human intelligence craft.

02:14:15.000 But do you think that some of this stuff has been back-engineered from these non-human crafts? 1.00

02:14:21.000 Some of the materials, I would say, yes.

02:14:24.000 I think we've got some, I mean, it's out on the web these days that, for example, Battelle Institute has supposedly were given some materials from the Roswell crash,

02:14:46.000 and we always hear the descriptions of this foil that you could...

02:14:50.000 Crumple up and then you let go and it just flattens out again and so on.

02:14:56.000 So material of that type was provided to Battelle and they worked on it for some years to try to see if they could reproduce it and the claim is that and it's in the public domain that nitinol came out of it which is that material that It can be heated and then it'll reform into its original source.

02:15:22.000 It doesn't exactly reproduce the effect you saw, but some of it is kind of in the direction of that.

02:15:29.000 And it turned out that some of the main material engineers that worked on that, at their deathbed, they told their relatives that they were working on pieces from the Roswell crash.

02:15:43.000 And they made some progress, but not a lot.

02:15:46.000 You can look that up on the internet and see that that's the case.

02:15:50.000 Is part of the limitation, this thing that we were discussing earlier about compartmentalization and the lack of ability of other scientists to get access to this material so they can collaborate?

02:16:01.000 Yes, the compartmentalization, I would say, is the biggest impediment to making really good progress.

02:16:11.000 For sure.

02:16:12.000 I think that's the case.

02:16:13.000 And this conundrum has sort of existed for quite a long time.

02:16:17.000 Quite a long time.

02:16:18.000 Decades.

02:16:19.000 Also in line with what Bob Lazar said.

02:16:21.000 Bob Lazar said the big frustration when he was working.

02:16:24.000 He was tasked with trying to figure out the propulsion system, but he had no access to the metallurgists.

02:16:32.000 He had no access to anyone else that...

02:16:35.000 Was also working on similar things.

02:16:37.000 And he's like, science just can't progress this way.

02:16:39.000 It needs to be collaborative.

02:16:41.000 Absolutely right.

02:16:42.000 That's 100%.

02:16:43.000 And it's even worse than you would think.

02:16:46.000 I mean, one of the stories that I ran into was a corporation had materials from crashes in their basement.

02:17:01.000 They couldn't even bring them up.

02:17:03.000 To the top floor for their own scientists to look at because it was so compartmentalized.

02:17:08.000 And so that was part of the deal where we said, okay, well, give them to us, and then we'll come in the front door and give them to your scientists.

02:17:18.000 And we won't say it came from your basement, and we won't say what it had to do with.

02:17:22.000 And, you know, maybe that would work.

02:17:24.000 But that got shut down, so it was so compartmentalized.

02:17:29.000 Compartmentalization is really a death knell on much of this stuff.

02:17:33.000 As I say, as I go back to my teller story, more collaboration, even though there are faults that can happen and material can leak out and information can leak out and that might help an adversary.

02:17:50.000 Still, I think more openness would be a better idea.

02:17:54.000 Oh, for sure.

02:17:54.000 Well, definitely for you and I, who are fascinated by this thing.

02:17:58.000 Right, right.

02:17:59.000 Have you had a personal experience with anything that you can't explain?

02:18:05.000 No, I actually haven't.

02:18:07.000 So for you, it's all...

02:18:08.000 I mean, one time I saw what appeared to be a satellite make a right-angle turn, so that falls into that kind of a category, but...

02:18:15.000 Who knows?

02:18:16.000 Who knows what it was?

02:18:18.000 Right.

02:18:18.000 So, no.

02:18:19.000 Nothing profound.

02:18:21.000 Nothing profound.

02:18:22.000 So you've never been hopped in a jet and flown to the wreckage and had a chance to look at things?

02:18:29.000 No.

02:18:30.000 Haven't.

02:18:30.000 God.

02:18:31.000 Don't you want to?

02:18:32.000 Well, I sure would like to do that.

02:18:36.000 But that's still...

02:18:41.000 We had this discussion earlier about, you know, for example, the row viewing or quantum entanglement or, you know, what's going on in our physics that we don't understand that these kinds of things can be happening.

02:18:57.000 And you'll be interested to know that someone you know, John Paul DiGiorgio, and I are in partnership to explore a new, And so I'm actually now,

02:19:18.000 at this point, directly involved in a program to examine quantum communications.

02:19:24.000 And so it turns out that whereas ordinary electromagnetic communications, you know, can't get through barriers, a metal door or whatever.

02:19:34.000 Well, why is that?

02:19:35.000 It's because the electromagnetic signal...

02:19:37.000 When it gets to the metal door, the electric and magnetic fields generate counteracting effects, and so the signal can't get through.

02:19:46.000 So it turned out that some years ago, when I was digging around to try to find out how to explain unusual effects, I dug deeper into electromagnetism down into the quantum levels and recognized that there are some additional quantum processes.

02:20:06.000 Where you could end up suppressing the electric and magnetic fields, but you would still have a quantum signal, which in principle could get through barriers.

02:20:17.000 And so that would mean, okay, that's the case, and you could communicate to submarines.

02:20:24.000 So whereas the salt water is sufficiently conductive, the electromagnetic signal can't get down there and communicate.

02:20:32.000 If you are able to...

02:20:34.000 Pull out the electric and magnetic components, but you still have an underlying quantum aspect to it, you could get through.

02:20:42.000 Or same thing with, you know, spaceships.

02:20:44.000 You know, when our spaceships came back from, when the Apollo spaceships came back, once they started in our atmosphere and are surrounded by plasma, we have this period where there's no communication.

02:20:56.000 Well, for the very reason that electromagnetic signals can't get through charged plasmas.

02:21:02.000 But this quantum communication aspect could.

02:21:08.000 How would you encode the information quantumly, and how would you project it?

02:21:13.000 What kind of machinery would be involved in something like that?

02:21:16.000 Well, it turns out that the machinery to generate the signals would be very explicitly designed antenna structures.

02:21:26.000 They're put together in such a way as to prevent electromagnetic...

02:21:32.000 Components from being transmitted.

02:21:35.000 It's the detection part where the secret to the technology is because it turns out that, okay, if electromagnetic signals aren't there, how are you going to detect such a signal?

02:21:50.000 Because all of our detectors are, you know, electromagnetic signal comes in and generates a current and whatever.

02:21:58.000 Well, it turns out that...

02:21:59.000 These special kinds of signaling at the quantum level can only be detected by quantum devices.

02:22:07.000 Quantum devices can detect these quantum communication signals even if there's no electric and magnetic effects associated with them.

02:22:18.000 So that's what we're looking at.

02:22:20.000 And so when I think about, okay, well, you know, what areas does this have?

02:22:27.000 Well, of course, it's got a lot of application for things like communication and under conditions where you'd like to overcome shielding.

02:22:35.000 But it may have something to do even with some of the consciousness stuff.

02:22:39.000 Because ordinarily, you know, when you hear about people trying to think, well, what about consciousness?

02:22:48.000 Is it still just all molecules and neurons whirling around?

02:22:52.000 Or are there some additional fields?

02:22:56.000 There are a couple of physicists, well, the physicist and anesthesiologist, the physicist Roger Penrose, who got a Nobel Prize for general relativity stuff, and Stu Hameroff, who is an anesthesiologist,

02:23:12.000 they coupled up and started saying, okay, is there a possibility that there are quantum aspects in ordinary life, in ordinary consciousness?

02:23:23.000 Because...

02:23:24.000 Sounds kind of reasonable.

02:23:26.000 The anesthesiologist says, well, when I give somebody a certain anesthetic, they lose consciousness.

02:23:31.000 So there must be something about the anesthesia that grabs onto whatever's responsible for consciousness.

02:23:39.000 So to make a long story short, they came up with a model where they felt that there are, in fact, quantum processes occurring within the brain.

02:23:49.000 That in addition to the stuff we all read about and know about, like neurons and all that kind of stuff, there's also a distribution throughout our brain and nervous system of what's called microtubules.

02:24:03.000 And it turns out microtubules have such a structure, you do experiments in lab to show this, that they can detect quantum signals.

02:24:15.000 So the idea that even in our consciousness...

02:24:19.000 There are mechanisms for detecting quantum signals.

02:24:23.000 It's like a whole new area to investigate.

02:24:26.000 And so there are some biological and consciousness-oriented experimenters that are taking a look at this idea that, okay, instead of just saying quantum entanglement, that's how information you get from here to there,

02:24:44.000 maybe we can actually find out, okay, well, what's the mechanism, though?

02:24:48.000 And so this is a whole new area.

02:24:52.000 It turns out that I developed proof of principle for this sub-Rosa quantum communication stuff on a classified contract back in the 90s,

02:25:07.000 actually.

02:25:08.000 So I got proof of principle in that situation.

02:25:13.000 However, you say, okay, well, if you've got proof of principle, then why aren't we using it?

02:25:17.000 Why isn't it all over the place?

02:25:18.000 Well, it turns out the quantum detectors were very new kinds of circuitry, nothing ready for prime time.

02:25:31.000 So I put that whole thing on the shelf, let it sit there for a while.

02:25:36.000 And now, because of quantum computing, it turns out a lot of research effort is going to develop.

02:25:44.000 Cryogenic circuitry near absolute zero to be used in quantum computing.

02:25:49.000 So I said, okay, they got these Josephson junctions working, which is exactly what I want to use for my detection scheme.

02:25:57.000 And so I finally decided to take it off the shelf.

02:26:00.000 So I approached JP and showed him what the potential was.

02:26:09.000 Not only in just communications, but maybe it has implications for biological things or medical things or whatever because of this other work on microtubules.

02:26:20.000 So he said, okay, well, let's go for it.

02:26:24.000 So we have another major lab that is actually putting together circuitry for us that operates about 3.7 degrees above absolute zero.

02:26:36.000 I mean, this is really quite a...

02:26:39.000 Technical challenge.

02:26:40.000 But he and I are working in that together.

02:26:43.000 He's my collaborator.

02:26:46.000 Fascinating.

02:26:47.000 Quantum entanglement, is that what you think was going on with the algae?

02:26:51.000 So if you were able to do something to the algae in one area, this same colony of algae, when you had separated by long distances, they instantaneously recognized that something was happening?

02:27:04.000 That's the only thing I can imagine at this point based on the physics we know.

02:27:09.000 How far were they separated in distance?

02:27:11.000 Well, I was going to separate.

02:27:12.000 It was about five miles.

02:27:14.000 As it turns out, I never actually got to do that experiment because the CIA came and scooped me up and said, well, we've got to look at this remote viewing.

02:27:22.000 And so even though I proposed doing the experiment, the polygraph guys said this would be a great experiment.

02:27:31.000 Never got around to doing the experiment because along the way, Ingo Swann, you know, visited his lab, came out and perturbed the tiny quantum chip in the super shielded environment.

02:27:47.000 That brought the CIA on my doorstep, and so then we went off in that direction.

02:27:51.000 So I never got to do the experiment.

02:27:52.000 So as you consider all these technologies, as these innovations occur and technology becomes more and more powerful, like quantum computing, like many of these things that we're seeing now, do you think that these are all steps to further understand how these crafts could possibly work,

02:28:13.000 and we're getting closer and closer to it, Disclosure would accelerate that and we would have to get over this.

02:28:24.000 We'd have to have some sort of amnesty.

02:28:27.000 Amnesty towards the people that... 0.63

02:28:30.000 That misappropriated funds and lied to Congress, amnesty towards whatever defense contractors were given access to this equipment or these materials and other ones.

02:28:40.000 There has to be some executive decision that's made where, like, look, for the greater good of the human race, we have to bypass all of these blockades that are involved in us being able to truly understand what's going on here.

02:28:53.000 And one of them is we have to have disclosure.

02:28:56.000 Yes, exactly.

02:28:57.000 And in fact, we're not alone in thinking that way, as many in the field are aware of.

02:29:06.000 In 2023, then-majority leader, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and a Republican Senator Rounds got together,

02:29:22.000 and they put together...

02:29:25.000 An outline of an amendment to be attached to the National Defense Authorization Act called UAP Disclosure Act 2023.

02:29:38.000 And it's pages and pages long.

02:29:42.000 And it's hard to believe, but within this document, they outline how you would go through disclosure.

02:29:53.000 And it's very detailed.

02:29:57.000 I mean, for example, this is an official government document.

02:30:01.000 You can go find it on the Internet.

02:30:05.000 Non-human intelligence phrase is mentioned more than 20 times.

02:30:10.000 Whoa.

02:30:11.000 And the document said, look, what we need is a presidential panel.

02:30:20.000 President...

02:30:21.000 It's an officiated panel of people from several different areas and all those people out there who have materials and so on.

02:30:33.000 We're going to practice eminent domain, which turns out to be one of the things that turns people's hair on fire when they think they've got something and don't want to share it.

02:30:43.000 But anyway, we have to come up with a process whereby...

02:30:50.000 Corporations that have been involved in this can begin to share their history and their data and their materials.

02:30:59.000 And the National Archives will be set up to make this information available, as is safe to do, considering security concerns.

02:31:11.000 And so this is a multi-page document that you can find.

02:31:18.000 You can find it on the Internet.

02:31:19.000 Okay.

02:31:20.000 It passed the Senate, but the House killed it.

02:31:26.000 So you might think, okay, well, that's the end of that.

02:31:30.000 Surprisingly so, and it makes you realize the intensity of this, after it was killed, both Schumer and Rounds got back up in the Senate floor and said, okay, it got killed, but we're not giving up.

02:31:46.000 We're going to get it in there next year.

02:31:48.000 And so the following year, 2024, they included it again.

02:31:54.000 And most of it got killed.

02:31:58.000 The only thing that got killed was, okay, the National Archives will make available whatever information is provided them on this subject area.

02:32:06.000 And the National Archives has started to do that.

02:32:09.000 But as you can imagine, anybody who's got some really juicy stuff isn't going to give it to the National Archives.

02:32:15.000 It's still dead in the water.

02:32:17.000 So anyway, recently I was asked to come in and brief Senator Rounds, who was one of the two people who pushed this.

02:32:26.000 And he said, we're not giving up on this.

02:32:31.000 Give me what you've found so far about the physics of this.

02:32:37.000 Because when we try to push it, we always get the pushback that, well...

02:32:43.000 You know, we're not going to make any headway.

02:32:45.000 The pilots say this is way beyond our physics, but I understand that you and your colleagues have worked on this and felt that you can provide some of the physics.

02:32:54.000 We may not get the engineering yet, but we have some place to start.

02:32:57.000 Is that true?

02:32:58.000 Because I need to push back on the pushback.

02:33:01.000 So I gave them a long lecture on the physics, which I've also presented to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the Senate Armed Services Committee.

02:33:13.000 ARO, the all-domain anomalies resolution office.

02:33:20.000 So the information is coming out into those places, and so there are those people in high positions of power in our Congress who are really pushing it.

02:33:37.000 So, for example, as it turns out, tomorrow there's going to be a big meeting.

02:33:42.000 I think it was set up by Representative Luna.

02:33:47.000 I think it was Representative Luna.

02:33:49.000 You know, when they put out that official document saying, okay, JFK files are coming out, RFK files are coming out, MLK files are coming out.

02:34:01.000 In that list, UFO files are coming out.

02:34:05.000 Well, they haven't gotten there.

02:34:06.000 The Epstein files are coming out.

02:34:08.000 Okay.

02:34:09.000 So it's officially on that list.

02:34:12.000 So in fact, as it turns out, tomorrow there's going to be a big thing in Congress where they're going to have an open hearing with people coming forward to talk about that there should be some release of some steps forward to release this kind of data.

02:34:27.000 So it is not a dead issue.

02:34:29.000 I mean, it is hot, and there are a lot of really powerful people behind it.

02:34:35.000 You've got the resistance buried.

02:34:39.000 There are people within the intelligence community and the DOD who do think we need more openness.

02:34:47.000 They see the same issues I see, that we're not making much progress because everything is so compartmentalized.

02:34:55.000 So it's an ongoing thing.

02:34:57.000 When you talked about during the Bush administration, you were tasked, along with others, to try to figure out what are the pros and what are the cons and what outweighs what.

02:35:05.000 And your group decided that the cons outweighed the pros.

02:35:10.000 When it comes to disclosure today with the risk of espionage...

02:35:15.000 And with the risk of this information, if it becomes disclosed and everybody has access to it, clearly if it's disclosed to the general public, it's also going to be disclosed to our enemies.

02:35:26.000 Right.

02:35:26.000 And so this becomes an issue of national security.

02:35:28.000 Yes.

02:35:29.000 So it's got to be done correctly.

02:35:31.000 How would one do that?

02:35:33.000 Well, this write-up that Schumer and Rounds and some other people, Gillibrand and Rubio, put together said, okay.

02:35:43.000 We're going to have to lay everything out on the table at a highly classified area.

02:35:48.000 We're going to have to sort our way through of what can be released that doesn't take the chance of giving our potential adversaries data they need to leap ahead of us.

02:36:03.000 But nonetheless, we've got to have more collaboration so that we can move ahead faster.

02:36:10.000 So that's the job of, at least in that document, of a nine-person panel to figure out, okay, what could be released without jeopardizing our national security so much, but nonetheless accelerating the kind of collaboration we need to make headway faster.

02:36:29.000 And then there's the issue of when it does get disclosed.

02:36:34.000 Like, what happens to the general public's perception?

02:36:38.000 If this is like a national disclosure, if the president, if Trump gets on television and discloses everything we know so far, we are in possession of 10 vehicles, however you want to call them,

02:36:54.000 of non-human intelligence that are not ours.

02:36:56.000 We have been working on this for decades in secrecy.

02:37:01.000 Because of the fact that everything has been so secret and everything is so compartmentalized, innovation has been stagnant.

02:37:08.000 Our understanding of it has been stagnant.

02:37:11.000 The only way forward is to disclose.

02:37:13.000 But this is going to come with a radical reimagining of our place in the universe.

02:37:19.000 What you've just described is what I think has to happen.

02:37:23.000 I mean, because you have whistleblowers like Dave Grush coming forward.

02:37:29.000 And he basically says, we've got craft, we've got bodies, we've got aerospace corporations working on this behind the scenes.

02:37:40.000 But in the end, that doesn't go anywhere.

02:37:43.000 It doesn't really solve the problem.

02:37:45.000 And you have people come forward and said, look, I can give you the address of where the stuff is stored so we can take this out of the discussion area and really prove something.

02:38:00.000 But it would take, I think, a presidential executive order or something to light a fire under that process to have it happen.

02:38:12.000 But that's all possible.

02:38:14.000 It's all possible.

02:38:15.000 And when I compare, you know, where are we today as compared to where we were in 2004 or whenever that other...

02:38:28.000 Disclosure discussion took place.

02:38:31.000 At that time, there was a lot of stigma.

02:38:34.000 There was no proof you could kind of put your hands on.

02:38:40.000 There was, in fact, purposely designed misinformation by the intelligence community.

02:38:47.000 The so-called Robertson panel went out of their way to say this is all nonsense.

02:38:54.000 So that was something you're dealing with.

02:38:55.000 So there you realize, well, if I come forward and say there's really something to this, I'm really blasting through quite a brick wall here.

02:39:03.000 But in the intervening decades, I think we've gotten to a point where the reasons we had to not do it then are no longer applicable.

02:39:18.000 But some of the concerns we had discussed then.

02:39:22.000 Are still applicable and have to be.

02:39:24.000 We have to pay attention to them.

02:39:26.000 So I think, for example, this film that you saw that had its premiere at South by Southwest that Dan Farrell put out, and an upcoming book coming out by Jay Stratton,

02:39:41.000 who was in charge of the UAP task force, these kind of things are going to accelerate that option.

02:39:51.000 And so I think it's only a matter, I mean, I would find it difficult to believe that within a decade we're not going to figure out how to do this and that there will be what you and I would call disclosure, but in a responsible way where we're not providing the enemy information they need.

02:40:14.000 I mean, I recall when the DOD program was set up out of DIA, they said, well, We need to investigate this to find out whose craft there are, how do they run, and whatever, whatever.

02:40:29.000 And then the second reason was, what if our potential adversaries get access or figure this out from their data collection before we do, and they leap ahead of us.

02:40:42.000 So it turned out that whole program was not based on one.

02:40:45.000 They couldn't care less where these things were coming from, what their intentions were.

02:40:50.000 They're really worried about the possibility of an adversary getting ahead of us.

02:40:54.000 So that was the driving force behind the whole program.

02:40:57.000 Well, now having all these intervening years go by and, you know, there hasn't been any obvious super breakthrough by adversaries.

02:41:08.000 I think now is the time we could have a kind of a reconciliation process, make sure we don't put everybody in jail and anything to do with covering this up.

02:41:18.000 Provide proper lanes to bring various aspects of information forward.

02:41:25.000 And so that's what I and colleagues that I interact with are trying to do today.

02:41:32.000 I would also think that if I was looking at civilization, particularly United States civilization, and thinking what kind of an impact would things have in 2004 with disclosure,

02:41:48.000 And what kind of an impact would they have in 2025?

02:41:51.000 I think that this gradual acceptance and this understanding that this is probably a real phenomenon is much more widespread today.

02:42:02.000 So the concept of it, it wouldn't be as shocking as it would have been two decades ago.

02:42:08.000 you know two decades ago by the way is when the the tic tac vehicle was was observed which is 2004 which is really kind of crazy when you think about the technology that was required to do something and then imagine that that

02:42:23.000 technology being ours in 2004 it seems preposterous right it seems almost outside of the realm of even whatever top-secret programs could have been running some black programs could have been

02:42:35.000 It is too much.

02:42:38.000 It seems too crazy.

02:42:40.000 I think a big breakthrough, and I think you probably agree, was the New York Times.

02:42:44.000 That 2017 report in the New York Times was huge because here it is in the most prestigious newspaper in the United States, in the world.

02:42:52.000 And it's saying, look, there's real things happening here.

02:42:56.000 And there's real people who are at a very high level who are talking about these things.

02:43:00.000 Whether it's Commander Fravor or Ryan Graves or all these different fighter pilots that have encountered these things that are just doing something that is beyond explanation.

02:43:09.000 This is more in the zeitgeist now.

02:43:12.000 Yes.

02:43:12.000 And the more you have people like James Fox and Jeremy Corbell and...

02:43:18.000 These documentaries that get out, more and more of an understanding and appreciation of the fact that these aren't kooks.

02:43:23.000 These are real people.

02:43:25.000 And we need to take into consideration the very obvious possibility that we are not unique.

02:43:33.000 There's too many planets.

02:43:34.000 There's too many solar systems.

02:43:36.000 There's too many galaxies.

02:43:37.000 And then dimensions.

02:43:41.000 Just the potential of, like, what do we look like in a million years?

02:43:46.000 What do we look like in a million years?

02:43:48.000 And if we, you know, existed in this form for hundreds of thousands of years, it's not inconceivable that a species like us could keep going with its innovative trajectory and achieve some state a million years from now that is just beyond our imagination currently.

02:44:10.000 And that we might be experiencing that.

02:44:12.000 Right.

02:44:13.000 I think you have laid out an exact map of the real situation and what the future probably holds for us and the fact that now is the time,

02:44:28.000 sooner rather than later, to begin to have this become part of our total philosophical fabric to face into this.

02:44:38.000 And to accept the reality of non-human intelligences, for example, and recognize that our own technical development is moving so fast that the kind of things that we find to be so mysterious are pretty much likely in our not-that-far-off future.

02:44:59.000 Well, just what we see with the leaps that quantum computing is able to achieve.

02:45:04.000 Equations that would take standard computing billions of years.

02:45:06.000 It could do it in four minutes.

02:45:07.000 Exactly.

02:45:08.000 That's right.

02:45:09.000 You hear that and you go, what are you even saying?

02:45:11.000 That's right.

02:45:12.000 In fact, my son this morning brought up that article and, you know, it's just kind of unbelievable.

02:45:22.000 It's unbelievable and it's real.

02:45:23.000 It's unbelievable and it's real.

02:45:24.000 And it's happening right now.

02:45:25.000 And then just imagine taking that 50 years.

02:45:30.000 Yes.

02:45:30.000 50 years ago, that was science fiction.

02:45:33.000 Complete science fiction.

02:45:34.000 That's right.

02:45:35.000 I mean, I love my example of, in fact, I got it into the New York Times article.

02:45:40.000 Suppose you gave Leonardo da Vinci a garage door opener.

02:45:44.000 What could he do?

02:45:46.000 Well, first of all, plastic.

02:45:48.000 He doesn't know what plastic is.

02:45:50.000 Secondly, when he opens it up and sees all these little tiny things, he'd never heard of electromagnetism.

02:45:58.000 I mean, there's no way that even, okay.

02:46:01.000 Or give Einstein an iPhone back in 1945 or something, you know?

02:46:07.000 Right.

02:46:08.000 What could he do with it?

02:46:09.000 So that's sort of the position that we kind of have been in to see these craft that we get access to either through crashes or, quote, donations.

02:46:19.000 And, you know, it's really mysterious.

02:46:22.000 but nonetheless we should do our best.

02:46:26.000 And these days, because of the development of quantum technology,

02:46:31.000 Technologies and so on.

02:46:33.000 We have better tools.

02:46:34.000 We have AI on our side to move fast through some calculations and stuff.

02:46:40.000 So I think this is the time where disclosure is going to happen and relatively soon.

02:46:49.000 If it does happen, it's thanks to people like you that stuck their neck out for many, many years, and I'm sure you experienced a lot of ridicule and side eyes.

02:46:57.000 Sure did, right?

02:46:59.000 In fact, I remember when I was involved in the remote viewing program, one of my sons was attending a grammar school, and one day another father's kid came over to play with him, and when the other...

02:47:17.000 A professor, actually, at Stanford came over and said, I brought my kid over to play with you, but his last name is Puthoff.

02:47:24.000 Are you associated with that Puthoff at SRI and that remote viewing?

02:47:29.000 I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am.

02:47:31.000 And he said, okay, my son's not going to come over and play with you.

02:47:35.000 Oh, boy.

02:47:36.000 So you run into that. 1.00

02:47:39.000 What a fool. 1.00

02:47:39.000 You run into that. 1.00

02:47:40.000 But I don't know.

02:47:41.000 Why would he want to talk to you?

02:47:43.000 If that was my kid, I'd be like, let's hang out.

02:47:46.000 Tell me, Al, what the heck are you doing?

02:47:49.000 So anyway, that's what we used to run into.

02:47:51.000 Closed-mindedness.

02:47:53.000 But that shows how things have changed.

02:47:56.000 In general, when we talk about the remote viewing aspects, people just say, okay.

02:48:03.000 I accept that.

02:48:03.000 Now, how can we apply it?

02:48:05.000 And we talk about technologies associated with crash retrievals.

02:48:11.000 Okay, fine, but, you know, what can we learn from that?

02:48:13.000 How can we apply it?

02:48:14.000 So, I mean, it's a different world we're in now, and I'm really excited about it.

02:48:18.000 And, you know, I'm not going to stop.

02:48:21.000 Well, I'm very happy you're out there.

02:48:23.000 I really, really appreciate you, and I really appreciate your time.

02:48:25.000 So thank you for coming in here and talking to us.

02:48:27.000 Certainly welcome, and I appreciate the fact that you're willing to be...

02:48:31.000 Pursuing these frontier areas and bringing them to a large audience, that's a real gift.

02:48:36.000 I really appreciate that.

02:48:37.000 Well, it feels like a gift for me because it's so fascinating, and I've been obsessed with it my whole life, as I think a lot of people are, who look into it at all and realize there's something of substance there.

02:48:47.000 Right.

02:48:48.000 Well, thank you, Hal.

02:48:49.000 Thank you.

02:48:49.000 It was a real pleasure.

02:48:50.000 Thank you.

02:48:51.000 Pleasure for you, too.

The Joe Rogan Experience - May 01, 2025

Joe Rogan Experience #2314 - Hal Puthoff

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript