In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, I sit down with quantum physicist and author of the textbook Quantum Electronics: The Basic Principles of Quantum Electronics, Al Karpf, to talk about the weird stuff he's done in his life and how he got into quantum physics.
00:00:45.000I was a ham radio operator as a teenager, and I went to vocational school.
00:00:50.000I didn't think I'd ever go to college or whatever, but I got all involved in learning about...
00:00:57.000Radio transmission and all that kind of stuff.
00:01:01.000So I finally said, okay, I'm going to go to college and really concentrate on electrical engineering and physics and all that kind of stuff.
00:01:10.000But the weird stuff actually began kind of by absolute accident.
00:01:17.000At the time, I was involved at Stanford University, getting my PhD.
00:01:26.000I'd invented a broadly tunable infrared laser, one of the first of its kind, even got a patent as a graduate student, and co-authored with my thesis advisor a textbook, graduate-level textbook,
00:01:44.000Fundamentals of Quantum Electronics, published in English, French, Russian, and Chinese.
00:01:48.000So I was on a cool roll, just doing the normal physics kinds of things.
00:01:54.000But interestingly enough, once I was there writing a graduate-level textbook, I realized, you know, there's something I don't know.
00:02:03.000And that is, what about consciousness?
00:02:13.000Or are there some additional fields or whatever?
00:02:16.000So it turned out I came across some publications by a polygraph expert who taught polygraph to the CIA and FBI and so on.
00:02:28.000And one day on a lark, he connected his polygraph up to his plants and he saw signals coming out that looked like what he see out of people and then he decided to threaten the plant like
00:02:42.000And so he then went on to connect up a couple of plants to polygraphs
00:02:48.000And he would find that if he affected one, the other one would respond.
00:02:51.000So I thought, okay, well, maybe this is some new fields that we don't include in our physics.
00:02:56.000So I came up with what, for me, was just a pure physics experiment.
00:03:01.000I was going to grow some algae culture, split it up, put half of it at a laser-linked site far away, and zap the local culture and see if it responded, and I could measure velocity propagation and so on.
00:03:13.000So I sent that off to this polygraph guy, Cleve Baxter is his name.
00:03:18.000And so he said, well, that'd be a cool experiment.
00:03:21.000Well, here's one of these things where your life takes a left-hand turn, totally at random.
00:03:27.000He goes to a cocktail party in New York City.
00:03:30.000And there he runs into Ingo Swann, who turned out to be so-called psychic, famous artist, but a fellow that did remote viewing, so-called.
00:03:43.000And so he invited him over to his lab and said, see if he could affect the plants and so on.
00:03:49.000While he was there, he saw my write-up about the experiment I proposed, which for me is just a pure physics experiment.
00:03:59.000And so he then wrote me a letter and said, well, if you're interested in the borderline between animate and inanimate physics, why deal with algae culture?
00:04:14.000Less about dealing with, quote, a psychic or whatever.
00:04:17.000But attached to his letter, he had a big report that had been generated at City College in New York where he'd done some experiments where he would raise and lower the temperatures of sensitive temperature measuring devices across the lab.
00:04:33.000And so I read that and I said, well, that's...
00:04:58.000Well, it turns out that I had a great experiment for him because we had an experiment set up at Stanford.
00:05:05.000That was a very sensitive quantum chip inside of electrical shielding, inside of magnetic shielding, inside of superconducting shielding, completely acoustically isolated from the environment.
00:05:18.000No way anything on the outside could affect that little chip.
00:05:23.000They were only looking for quarks and stuff like that.
00:05:27.000So anyway, I brought him over to the lab.
00:05:28.000I said, remember that thing you did with the thermistors there at City College in New York?
00:05:37.000And so he said, okay, well, I'll see what I can do.
00:05:40.000Well, it turned out he generated all kinds of signals in that little quantum chip.
00:05:46.000And, of course, a graduate student whose life depended on this not being, you know, affected by anything outside said, well, maybe there's some bubbles in the hydrogen line or something, something.
00:07:10.000So he's doing it exactly when he's saying he's going to do it.
00:07:13.000Exactly when he says he's going to do it.
00:07:15.000But anyway, the reason I'm trying to get around to answering your question was that I then wrote this up and circulated around to other physicists, and pretty soon the CIA come landing on my doorstep and said, oh, have we been looking for you?
00:07:49.000And he said, you know, we have a problem.
00:07:52.000And they plopped a big report down on the desk about like that and said, look, the Russians have been spending millions of dollars at their best institutes trying to use ESP for espionage purposes.
00:08:45.000They spent a day hiding things in the boxes and envelopes, and he would describe what was inside.
00:08:51.000And they were totally blown away, so they said, okay, we would like to give you a little project here, I don't know, 50 or 60K, and see what else he can do.
00:09:01.000So anyway, that's how I got started on doing, quote, weird stuff.
00:09:05.000And so, as many would know, that project ended up being very productive, and it went over.
00:09:14.000More than 20 years and so on, highly classified level.
00:09:18.000Well, maybe we'll get to that separately because I think the UAP stuff is kind of more interesting to start with.
00:09:25.000But anyway, that's how I got started in weird physics, you might call it.
00:09:31.000And then sort of like in Ghostbusters, well, if you got some...
00:10:31.000And as we might discuss later, I've got some ideas about, you know, what some of the quantum mechanisms might be involved in that.
00:10:38.000But anyway, as far as the CIA was concerned, they were most interested in this ability to see through shielding.
00:10:45.000And they said, does that mean if we have all kinds of classified documents and a superconducting safe, the Russians might be able to, you know, reach in and see them?
00:10:56.000And so that's what they were most worried about.
00:11:04.000That started a whole program when we found out that it was true, that we started out doing what you would think, you know, just hiding things in the next room and can you describe them and stuff like that.
00:11:22.000He says, well, if you want to know what's in the next room, go look.
00:11:25.000If you want to know what's in the envelope or the box, open it up.
00:11:28.000So he said, well, you know, what do you have in mind?
00:11:32.000He said, well, just send somebody out into the San Francisco Bay Area and I'll describe where they are.
00:11:38.000And so that's how what we call remote viewing program got started.
00:11:43.000We started doing experiments, which I got to say, I resisted this stuff every inch along the way because as a physicist, I had no idea how this could possibly be.
00:12:00.000Our lab director, who's always concerned about was there some kind of hoax between the subjects and the experimenters, he'd make up a long list and store them in his safe, and we'd go get an envelope out of the safe,
00:12:15.000leave SRI, drive to wherever the envelope said, and he would give a description.
00:12:20.000That's how that whole program got started.
00:12:23.000When you are experiencing this and you're initially very skeptical and you start seeing these results, what kind of a shift does that have in your worldview?
00:12:35.000It was very challenging, I've got to say.
00:12:38.000Because as a physicist and as a quantum physicist where I've written equations for all kinds of interactions, I had no clue how anything like this could possibly be.
00:12:50.000And I'll be honest, I still don't really have a clue about exactly what's going on other than consciousness seems to be expandable out into the environment in a way that we don't usually consider could possibly be the case.
00:13:08.000There are people who get into meditation and all that kind of stuff, but none of that was in my background, so I just found this a challenge.
00:13:19.000It was only that the CIA was paying us to look into this that I kept going the next step, resisting every inch along the way.
00:13:28.000To give you an example, along the way, there was a little bit of PR in the newsprint, newspapers about our experiments.
00:13:42.000So we began getting people calling in and saying, well, I have some of that ability too and whatever.
00:13:49.000And so one of the people that came along that way was Pat Price.
00:13:53.000He was ex-Police Commissioner Burbank.
00:13:59.000And he said, you know, when we were solving crimes, I would get an image of where the culprit might be hiding.
00:14:09.000Well, I had no reason to necessarily believe that.
00:14:12.000But it turned out that right at that moment, we were being challenged by the CIA to...
00:14:18.000Prove this wasn't just some kind of a hoax between the experimenters and the subjects.
00:14:23.000And so they came up with coordinates, because as it turns out, when we sent people out to a site and Ingo or somebody else had to describe it, they would describe not only the site as being observed by the outbound person,
00:14:39.000but also what was inside the building and what was on top of the building.
00:15:17.000We do some local experiments, and he's doing very well as well.
00:15:22.000And so, again, our CIA contract monitors were worried that there's some kind of, you know, trickery and so on.
00:15:29.000So they came up with coordinates of what turns out to be right next to Sugar Grove facility, which is a highly classified NSA facility picking up Soviet satellite transmissions.
00:18:01.000So that's what started the whole, you might say, Espionage-oriented SRI program on remote viewing.
00:18:10.000It went for, I don't know, like 23 years or so on.
00:18:13.000What are the meetings like when you're explaining this to the CIA and you're showing them results and you've got these, you know, hard-nosed individuals who are pretty rational trying to figure out what you're saying?
00:18:28.000This episode is brought to you by Visible.
00:18:30.000Now you know I tend to go down a lot of rabbit holes.
00:18:34.000I want to know everything about everything.
00:18:36.000And if you're like that, you need wireless that can keep up.
00:18:40.000Visible is wireless that lets you live in the know.
00:19:56.000But there's a second response we got which turned out to be interesting.
00:20:01.000At a certain point after we had done a number of years of successful work in doing the remote viewing.
00:20:09.000We had to keep briefing higher and higher, as you can imagine.
00:20:13.000I hated briefing higher because if you brief a high-level guy and he says, oh, come on, this is nonsense, this is BS, that's the end of your programs.
00:20:23.000So I got it up to a point where, for example, I briefed Bill Casey, who was director of CIA under Reagan, and we had 45 minutes with him.
00:20:35.000And so I went through stuff like I've been describing for 45 minutes.
00:20:40.000He got so entranced with it that he dismissed the rest of his afternoon calendar, and we spent five hours briefing him on that.
00:20:50.000So there was this funny thing where a certain level of people would just, oh, this can't be.
00:20:56.000And then really high-level people seemed to be...
00:21:02.000So actually we came up with a hypothesis and that is, okay, people who make it to the top of the food chain might be people who at some level inside themselves are, you know, they're always making decisions based on insufficient information and they end up making the right decision.
00:21:17.000That's how they got to where they are.
00:21:18.000So maybe this is some aspect that's at least at the unconscious level happening.
00:21:27.000Well, that finally got put to a test because there were some parapsychologists who did some experiments with a meeting of CEOs of, I think it was 67 CEOs of major corporations and had them try to guess the numbers that were going to be generated on the computer the next day.
00:22:19.000I realize that when I trust my gut instinct, I'm usually right.
00:22:24.000So anyway, that sort of leads to the idea that this is a broadly available phenomenon.
00:22:34.000Do you think this is an emerging aspect of human consciousness or do you think that this is something that maybe we developed a long time ago but lost because of communication, because of the written word,
00:22:49.000because of our ability to express ourselves, that we stopped communicating with the mind?
00:22:58.000Interpretation is the correct one because probably when you're out in the jungle and there's a tiger coming down the trail that you don't know about quite, it would be a thing that could really help you exist and survive.
00:23:12.000But once we get into language and technology and so on, that sort of...
00:23:29.000We had a few people who did really well.
00:23:32.000So, of course, CIA wanted to know, well, we'd like to find people in CIA who could do this, so give us a full medical roundup of these people.
00:23:44.000So we got a full medical, including seven-layer brain scans.
00:23:50.000And they came back and said, well, these are just normal people.
00:23:54.000So, oh, well, maybe it's psychological or neurological or whatever.
00:24:43.000And so one of the first experiments we did with her, and we have a wonderful diagram of what she did.
00:24:52.000We sent somebody out by our usual random protocol to an overpass over a freeway that's all fenced in with a very interesting structure, and she made a drawing of all that and said,
00:25:08.000you know, there's this kind of trough up in the air, but it's got holes in it, so it couldn't carry water.
00:25:13.000There's something going by really fast.
00:25:18.000And so we got the idea, and that was the biggest discovery in this whole thing, was that apparently, as with, say, athletic ability or musical ability, there's a bell curve.
00:25:34.000And you got superstars at one end, you got duds at the other, but to some degree, anybody could do it.
00:25:57.000Somewhere in Africa a plane went down.
00:26:00.000So Stansfield-Turner, who was Carter's CIA director, knew about our remote viewing program.
00:26:07.000And so he said, well, you've got these, quote, remote viewers are supposed to be so good.
00:26:13.000Why don't they find the plane for you?
00:26:15.000So, in fact, we had a remote viewer at our lab, and at that time we were working with Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Foreign Technology Division.
00:26:48.000But it turned out that after Carter got out of office, he was giving a speech in Georgia someplace.
00:26:55.000And somebody said, well, anything happened while you were present that was really strange?
00:26:58.000He said, oh yeah, the Soviet plane went down in Africa and it was full of electronics and we wanted to get it and nobody knew where it was and satellites couldn't find it because of all the vegetation.
00:27:11.000But we had some remote viewers, so-called.
00:27:15.000They pinpointed where it was, and we went in and got it before the Russians could find it.
00:27:20.000So, I mean, the real-world consequences came out of this stuff.
00:27:24.000So when Carter said that, was that a breach of confidence?
00:27:29.000That was a breach of security, but a president can...
00:30:55.000What is the process for a person to remote view?
00:30:59.000Is there a state that you have to go into?
00:31:01.000Is there a method to getting into that state?
00:31:03.000There is a method, and it's different from what you might think.
00:31:07.000You might think you would say to somebody, okay, we've got somebody to decide.
00:31:12.000Kind of imagine where they are and see what it looks like and tell us what you find and all that kind of stuff.
00:31:18.000They're usually wrong when they do that because their imagination comes into play and they make up something or whatever.
00:31:24.000But what we found out in the research, it took years and a lot of trials, was that you get a visceral response.
00:31:34.000It's not that you necessarily get an image.
00:31:37.000So, in fact, we told them, you know, if you get an image, just put it down the right-hand side of the paper because it's probably wrong.
00:31:44.000Instead, just kind of put down your feelings as you get into the site.
00:31:48.000And so, you know, if it's like water, they might...
00:31:51.000Do waves, or if it's a mountain peak, they might, as Jacques described in one of your previous broadcasts, a mountain peak, and they just feel like drawing something like that.
00:32:02.000So bit by bit, the process is very much a visceral feeling process, and so the training procedure has them sitting with pads of paper and just making sketches and drawings and not trying to interpret what it is.
00:32:20.000And also being very not in a rush about it.
00:32:24.000It's sort of like you've got a door and you drill a hole through and then drill another hole through and another hole through and then finally the door crumbles and then you've got a pretty good feeling for what the sign is.
00:32:37.000So the process that we use to train people involves this multi-stage process where they're to go by feelings, colors.
00:32:50.000You see a flash of a piece of metal, don't try to turn it into a car or a bicycle or whatever.
00:32:55.000So anyway, it was a whole training procedure that we developed.
00:32:57.000And eventually when we briefed the assistant chief of staff for intelligence, assistant director of intelligence for the Army, they said, okay, well, then we need to have our people get involved in learning how to do this.
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00:37:32.000Well, we now know there's so-called quantum entanglement, which is that things seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances.
00:37:42.000And so the easy answer is, well, it must be quantum entanglement.
00:39:13.000The Russians came up with an idea, well, brainwaves, low frequency, long wavelength, they can seemingly...
00:39:24.000Get through some aspects of the environment.
00:39:30.000So we came up with a series of experiments, and one of them was, okay, let's put our remote viewers on submarines, take them into the depths of the ocean, because it turns out seawater is highly conductive,
00:39:45.000and so even at low frequencies, even at brainwave frequencies...
00:39:53.000It would be a complete shield for that.
00:39:55.000So we piggybacked on somebody else's experiments, Stephen Schwartz's experiments using remote viewers to go find archaeological wrecks and shipwrecks and so on, which turned out to eventually be a successful experiment.
00:40:10.000But anyway, we got to do two experiments.
00:40:11.000We got pristine results, even with them under there, under the ocean water.
00:40:19.000So we know it's not ordinary electromagnetic.
00:40:23.000So we can strike one thing off the list, not that we know what to put on the list in its place, other than, you know, it's got to be some new field, some quantum aspect that we don't understand yet.
00:40:37.000We don't understand, but yet you could repeat it.
00:40:50.000We had some psychologists at SRI, and they said, you've got that stupid ESP experiment stuff going on, and this is going to ruin our reputation.
00:41:02.000People think that we're a nonsense place, and so that's hurting our reputation.
00:41:07.000Of course, they didn't know it was a highly classified CIA program, so anyway.
00:41:13.000So our director said, well, what do you think?
00:41:17.000I mean, how would you know if this is?
00:41:21.000And he said, look, make a list of all experiments, places that have been gone to as targets, and then give us the transcripts that were generated for those viewings, and don't tell us which ones go with which ones,
00:41:40.000and we'll try to rank them for each place.
00:41:44.000And so they did that, much to their chagrin.
00:41:48.000Seven of the nine were first place matches in a nine experiment series.
00:41:57.000And by the way, I can't complain about the skepticism.
00:42:02.000I mean, even as we're doing all this, we haven't lost our skepticism about how could this be.
00:42:11.000But we finally got into a spot where...
00:42:16.000The only thing that was secret about this program was that it was secret.
00:42:21.000People heard that we had these people coming in and doing experiments, but we weren't publishing anything.
00:42:27.000So I went to the CIA contract monitor and said, you know, you've got to let us publish something because the only secret about this project is there's a secret project.
00:42:34.000So if we publish something, that will handle that.
00:42:38.000Did you want to do that to get more scientists involved?
00:43:00.000You're thinking about someone they call you.
00:43:02.000We all have this idea that there's something there, but we don't know what it is.
00:43:08.000But we're very skeptical of someone who tells us that they can do it.
00:43:12.000And that's reasonable to think that way.
00:43:15.000And so in this case where we got permission to publish something, since we're engineers, Russell Targ, my colleague, and I are engineers and physicists, we wrote it up for the...
00:43:28.000Proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers.
00:43:32.000This is an engineering journal where we had published technical papers.
00:43:36.000So I said, well, we have a better chance there.
00:45:01.000So it turns out he did the whole thing, got the same kind of results we got.
00:45:06.000Our paper got published, 1976, Proceedings of the IEEE.
00:45:10.000And so that suddenly got other people saying, okay, well, maybe there really is something to this.
00:45:16.000So it turns out that for those who follow the field know that Robert John and Brenda Dunn, Robert John was head of engineering at Princeton.
00:45:28.000He had a student who wanted to do these kind of experiments, and he thought it was nonsense.
00:45:32.000But they came out and heard our briefing, and he went back.
00:45:35.000Long story short, he set up a, I don't know, 20-year program.
00:45:40.000Completely replicating our remote viewing work and also doing effects on random number generators that were quantum-driven.
00:45:51.000And so the so-called Pear Lab, Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab, replicated all of our work.
00:45:58.000And so pretty soon it's all over the place.
00:46:02.000So, by the way, at the end of the sort of...
00:46:07.000Cold War there where there was a detente.
00:46:11.000Some of our remote viewers went over to Russia to talk to their remote viewers, and they traded war stories.
00:46:18.000They lived through the same kind of thing.
00:46:45.000I mean, it was really, you know, the tiniest flip of a coin that that happened.
00:46:50.000So what that means is, for me personally, is that even though I had no interest in all that kind of stuff, this totally random event happened.
00:47:01.000And then once I built up a reputation for being willing to take on things that are impossible, Then that's why when the UAP, the UFO issue, kind of rose up again, who are you going to call?
00:50:48.000And then for each item, we had to go give it a score from plus nine to minus nine as to how intense the effect would be and whether it's positive or negative.
00:50:59.000So anyway, we broke up into groups, and our group had our list of eight or so.
00:51:05.000So we went down our list, and it turned out that...
00:51:09.000We ended up getting net negative numbers.
00:51:13.000And let me tell you why you can get negative numbers.
00:51:17.000One of the things down toward the bottom of the list, and we really got into the weeds, was, well, suppose materials from a crash retrieval of a non-human craft was given to Corporation A,
00:53:04.000By the way, in the remote viewing program, one of the things they told us, look, you guys that are running this program, don't you ever think about remote viewing yourself.
00:53:14.000We learned in the LSD days that if the experimenters get involved in the subject they're researching, they lose their objectivity.
00:53:22.000And don't think you can sneak away and get away with it because we'll get you on the polygraph.
00:54:08.000In fact, I have a great example of that, and that is Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb.
00:54:17.000Involved in the Manhattan Project, you'd think if anybody wanted to keep secrets about national security, it would be him.
00:54:24.000One of the strongest statements he made, which actually was kind of a driver in my shifting my viewpoint about, well, should we come out with this or not?
00:54:33.000He said, you know, in exploring nuclear energy, we had the Manhattan Project, highly classified.
00:54:43.000But nonetheless, we and the Russians kind of marched along step by step.
00:54:49.000But in electronics, we didn't classify electronics, circuit boards and all that kind of stuff.
00:54:57.000And we took off like a rocket and left Russia in the dust.
00:55:01.000So his viewpoint was that having more openness, even in national security areas, is a better bet.
00:55:12.000Even though I'd been part of, as it turns out, decades-long, highly classified, not-for-the-street, UAP investigations, that sort of affected my thinking about it,
00:55:31.000To the idea that, you know, we should do that.
00:55:33.000But the way I got actually more officially involved was that, as it turns out, in 2008, I think it was, Harry Reid, who was at the time Senate Majority Leader,
00:55:50.000Daniel Inouye from Hawaii, Ted Stevens from Alaska, they're part of the Gang of Eight.
00:56:00.000So they get better briefings than most people on what's going on beyond the scenes.
00:56:06.000So at that point, you might think, well, UFO stuff, I mean, that's all dead.
00:56:14.000Let me give you a little background first.
00:56:15.000And that is, you know, back in the 50s and 60s, we had Project Sign, Project Rudge, Project Blue Book.
00:56:23.000And then they had the Condon Committee at University of Colorado examine the area and say, he came out with this thing saying, there's nothing here.
00:56:34.000It's not worth the Air Force spending any time on it.
00:56:38.000Actually, the Condon Report, if you read it, there's a deep report showing all kinds of reasons why this is real.
00:56:45.000And then there's the foreword, which most media read, in which he said, oh, nothing here.
00:56:53.000So after 1969, which is when that report came out, if you called Air Force Public Affairs off and said, well, what's going on with UFOs?
00:57:04.000Oh, no, no, we give up all that stuff back in 1969.
00:57:07.000The truth of the matter is that the very memo that canceled Blue Book by General Bolander had down the fine print, but anything that might affect national security, we should keep track of.
00:57:27.000These senators who knew that there was still stuff going on decided there should be a new program.
00:57:34.000And so they asked the top physicists at DIA, Jim Lekatsky, who was one of the top physicists on propulsion and rocketry and so on, to put out a request for proposal.
00:57:53.000And so that went out, and so actually Robert Bigelow picked it up.
00:59:04.000So, but when they came up with the idea we should do another deeper dive into this, and by that time I was, you know, I mean, as a physicist.
00:59:18.000I mean, I was a Star Trek fan and, you know, Star Trek fan and all that kind of stuff.
00:59:23.000And as a physicist, I would hear about these UFO sightings and so on.
00:59:29.000So I always wondered about, you know, how can this, you know, could somebody really have any kind of propulsion that would look like that?
00:59:41.000So anyway, so when this program got set up, It turned out my particular assignment was, okay, let's look at all the physics and engineering that might be behind this stuff.
01:00:01.000And by the way, we will arrange for you to get access to some materials.
01:00:10.000So that was my tasking, and so I said, okay.
01:00:14.000So I can't get into a lot of detail, but I did do a lot of back and forth with some aerospace executives about getting access in case they had any materials and that kind of stuff.
01:00:32.000So they finally said, no, if that were the case, it would be too compartmentalized.
01:01:52.000So I said, okay, since we're not able to get materials and share them.
01:02:00.000Let me go to all of the subject matter experts that we would have gone to and say, we're doing a survey for Bigelow Aerospace.
01:02:12.000He wants to know where will your field be in the year 2050.
01:02:18.000So we figured, okay, we'd get the best sort of assessment of possible futures for their fields.
01:02:28.000I realize you probably don't have immediate access to this, but just to give you an idea, some of the papers that we got by going out to these people, and you'll see how serious we were.
01:02:42.000A-neutronic fusion propulsion, superconductors and gravity research, positron aerospace propulsion, warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, advanced nuclear propulsion.
01:02:58.000So this is just the first few of 38 papers that I arranged for leaders to come up with.
01:03:08.000So this is based on projections from where technology currently sits to, if you extrapolate, where it's going to be in 2050 based on what they're working on.
01:03:37.000So presumably, this is just me from a civilian's perspective, presumably you have some sort of a crash thing.
01:03:44.000You have to bring in people who make spaceships.
01:03:48.000You have to bring in people who make military jets, advanced propulsion systems.
01:03:57.000Those are the people that would be able to back in.
01:04:00.000And the people we had working on those papers were people from those communities.
01:04:05.000How did they – this is the conundrum that if they did disclose and the companies that weren't given access to these materials did fall apart and then the companies that got access to these materials advanced and had spectacular businesses, how did they decide?
01:04:22.000Just assuming you would have something, how would you decide?
01:06:09.000I really hope that gets released somewhere big, like Netflix or something like that, so people can see it.
01:06:14.000I think Dan Farah, who's the director and producer of that.
01:06:20.000By the way, a very well-known producer, you know, he collaborated with Steven Spielberg on Ready Player One, which was the big hit and so on.
01:06:29.000And the approach he used, which is really very clever, he contacted people like me, people like Lou Elizondo, on and on and on, and said, you know,
01:06:44.000many of you don't want to come out really and reveal too much.
01:09:03.000Which you may have heard of, that Lou Elizondo ran, sort of picked up there to keep the ball rolling forward.
01:09:10.000And now it's been revealed, by the way, only recently, that when the funding dried up, it dried up for the reasons you might think of, and that is it was so highly classified that when congressional statements came down that,
01:09:30.000okay, we need so much money for this, It didn't actually describe it.
01:09:34.000It was just advanced propulsion and all that kind of stuff.
01:09:37.000So another group picked up the money and said, oh, well, we're working on propulsion things, but it wasn't the real deal.
01:10:32.000And we built up a stack of documents that would go to the ceiling here about what needed to be done, what we were going to do, how it should be done, who should be involved.
01:10:43.000So at this point you're convinced that this is a real phenomenon.
01:10:46.000At this point I'm convinced that there's a real phenomenon.
01:10:52.000I mean, I can say I interacted with, for example, Dave Grush that you've had on your program before, Really a high-level intelligence officer.
01:11:04.000People in the public can hardly have any idea how high a level intelligence officer he was.
01:11:11.000He prepared briefings for the president.
01:11:14.000He was a top UAP investigator for NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office, and then transferred over to NGA, National Geospatial Intelligence Office, and so on.
01:11:31.000He was asked, he was an official, part of the UAP task force, asked by Jay Stratton to find out what's going on behind the scenes at these super classified levels.
01:12:48.000You know, which in the old days, you know, a farmer in the fields, someone streaking across the sky, and, you know, I don't know what to think.
01:12:57.000You know, you could sort of blow it off.
01:12:59.000But because our own detection equipment has really marched up into unbelievable sophistication, and so now we have these really advanced sensor systems, FLIR, forward-looking infrared radar,
01:13:19.000Satellites, Ratcliffe has admitted that satellites have picked up evidence of these craft.
01:13:29.000And these craft have interfered with military exercises, as we all know from, say, the Nimitz and the Gimbel and the GoFast videos that made it out into the public in 2017.
01:13:50.000So it's really out there now at this point that there's a reality here.
01:13:56.000And so that's where we are at this point.
01:14:01.000One of the more spectacular ones, you talked about the Nimitz, the Commander David Fravor experience.
01:14:07.000So they're flying over the water outside of San Diego.
01:14:13.000And they think they see something below the surface, which is large.
01:14:20.000And then this 20-foot tic-tac-looking thing that's hovering over the water that seems to turn towards them and recognize that it jams their radar.
01:14:33.000It does something to block their ability to detect it.
01:15:14.000He says, look, this thing was at, you know, 80,000 feet or whatever when he first detected it.
01:15:18.000Suddenly it's down there right above the water, and then it takes off and does a right-angle turn at Mach 3. You know, this stuff is just way beyond our physics.
01:15:29.000Of course, to a physics nerd like me, it's like, yeah, now wait a minute.
01:17:33.000So, as far as where they come from, what they're doing here, I myself have written a paper called Ultraterrestrials, where I try to cover the gamut.
01:17:53.000Spacecraft from some other galaxy whipping through here.
01:17:58.000Or maybe there's some Atlanteans left over from eons ago, and they're just kind of hiding out in the seabed or in some mountain range someplace.
01:18:08.000Or maybe some ET group showed up here 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 years ago, and they're hiding out with some bases locally and so on.
01:18:20.000And, of course, we have a fellow by the name of a professor by the name of Masters who thinks that, well, maybe it's time travelers from the future coming back.
01:18:29.000And then there's the whole idea, since physicists like to talk about additional dimensions, you know, maybe they come from another.
01:18:36.000So anyway, then in my ultra-terrestrials paper, I list every one I can think of and say, you know, we should be exploring all of these.
01:19:11.000I guess my suspicion that it's likely...
01:19:19.000Non-human intelligence from some other galaxy or far out in our own galaxy that have come here with some time back and that there are stations here.
01:19:35.000You know, I mean, one of our remote viewers that was really good came up one day and said, I was looking around and...
01:20:54.000One day, Pat Price, during the remote viewing program, came in the office and he said, I got bored last night, so I started looking around and I decided to look at the Oval Office.
01:22:05.000Now, it turned out he did go first because of some money laundering scheme.
01:22:10.000So when I sit down and try to say, okay, what are the statistics of having somebody see that a president is going to make it through his next term and his vice president is not going to take over because he goes first?
01:22:25.000I mean, the odds of that, I mean, there's just no doubt that that means it's really something.
01:22:30.000Well, especially when you consider Nixon was one of the most popularly elected presidents ever.
01:23:01.000Yeah, that was a big part of the whole thing.
01:23:06.000Now, one thing you may be surprised to learn, you've asked me from time to time, well, you know, what did I think as I'm facing into all this stuff?
01:23:17.000We, obviously, as physicists, think about time going forward in a reasonable way.
01:23:24.000And as I mentioned, the Princeton lab...
01:23:30.000Robert John at Princeton was very good in quantum theory and so on.
01:23:35.000And he knows that in quantum theory, time is kind of a slippery slope.
01:23:41.000You know, we have the space-time metric and the possibility of maybe seeing something in the future or something in the past.
01:23:48.000And so he did a series of remote viewing experiments very much like what we were doing.
01:23:55.000Sometimes he would have somebody go to a site and then wait a week and have somebody describe where the person went.
01:24:03.000Or he might have somebody describe where a person went, but the person didn't go until a week later.
01:24:10.000And so he did a lot of experiments, which, by the way, were good enough.
01:24:15.000He also got it published in the Proceedings of the IEEE, Institute of Electronics Engineers, a couple of years after our paper, like 78 or so.
01:24:24.000And so it turned out that the results, either looking a bit into the future, a bit into the past, the results were just as good.
01:24:34.000So that sort of helped solve another problem for us because we were always, I mean, I can't blame the skeptics coming forward.
01:24:44.000In fact, our favorite phrase is, as far as remote viewing goes, there are two outcomes.
01:25:54.000He said, tell you what, I do silver futures.
01:25:57.000If you can get your ESP people to tell me what's happening each day, the next day, in silver futures, I will follow what you tell me, and I'll bet on it,
01:26:13.000and see if I make money based on that, and tell you what, whatever money I get, I'll give your school 10% of what I make.
01:26:21.000And don't worry, if I lose money, I won't charge you.
01:26:27.000Well, by now in the program, we recognize that, okay, there's the bell curve, sort of anybody can do it to some degree.
01:26:34.000So I simply went to the board of directors of the school and said, we're going to go into silver futures to make our missing $25,000.
01:26:48.000But I'm not going to ask you what you think the market's going to do the next day because that will depend on what you've read or what you hope for or whatever, whatever, whatever.
01:26:57.000We're going to do something different.
01:26:59.000I'm going to pick a couple of objects.
01:27:02.000Objects that are very different from each other.
01:27:04.000I'm going to label one of them, mark it up.
01:27:07.000I'm going to label the other one, mark it down.
01:27:10.000And I want you to describe to me today the object I'm going to show you tomorrow, which will depend on what the market does.
01:27:21.000And so, okay, and for a crash course, I gave him this.
01:27:28.000Shortened version of how, you know, don't try to image it, just try to get, it's a visceral thing, how do you feel about it, what's the sort of texture of it, and so on.
01:27:38.000And, Jamie, can you pull up that first of the, it shows the wooden figurine and the tape measure?
01:30:49.000So she said she'd make it available and so on.
01:30:53.000So about this time, I had already had my viewpoint shifted, as I say, by Ed.
01:31:07.000Edward Teller about, you know, we should have more openness going on.
01:31:12.000And so, in fact, Tom DeLonge came along and, you know, the punk rock Bleak 182 and said, you know, we should be...
01:31:22.000By the way, this is before even things came out in the New York Times in December 2017.
01:31:27.000He says, "You know, I've been talking to people at some aerospace corporations and they're saying how hard it is to get students to do their engineering and come to work for us." And so he said, "Well, you know, if there's anything to quote the UFO
01:31:42.000area, you know, maybe it could generate some interest that way." And so, long story short, he got Jim Simivan, now retired high-level person at CIA, got
01:33:29.000There's no obvious proof that it comes from out of our solar system because there are various isotopes that would be different if it came from some other solar system.
01:33:39.000So that would be the first thing you'd look for to say, oh, this really is ET.
01:33:46.000The second part, though, was a little more interesting, and that is these layers of magnesium and bismuth, I mean, those are the size of a human hair, some of those layers.
01:33:57.000And they said, well, we can't find any evidence in the history of development of materials, of materials like that, and can't even imagine why anybody wanted to make it.
01:34:13.000So, no proof that it's ET, but one of the things we did do, he says, okay, well, how hard is it to make something like this?
01:34:22.000And so we got an aerospace corporation to say, can you bond Mismuth and Magnesium together, you know, sort of like what we see in this sample.
01:34:32.000Well, they got two layers bonded, cost them over a million dollars, broke down their instruments to do it.
01:35:16.000So this is something that is of terrestrial origin in terms of materials when you measure the isotopes, but it's of a construction method that's not currently available.
01:35:26.000That is a perfect description of the situation.
01:35:31.000And by the way, it certainly wasn't available back in the '40s and '50s when this supposedly was found.
01:38:44.000We have data about crashes in other countries.
01:38:47.000So it's really clear that we're not the only ones on the planet.
01:38:52.000So that's something to be concerned about because, for example, here we have our capitalistic competition, aerospace corporations, electronics corporations, all being very hushed up and not sharing anything.
01:39:12.000Meanwhile, in China, you put all the labs on something like this and say, and by the way, don't say anything outside that you're not supposed to say.
01:39:27.000So that's part of what's behind our not revealing what we've learned because there might be some aspect that we've learned which in principle you'd think, well, you could reveal, but it might be the missing piece that some potential adversary said,
01:39:47.000So even though, generally speaking, I'm of the feeling that there should be more disclosure, I'm also very tight on anything that could be potentially helpful to an adversary in this area.
01:40:05.000We're not going to reveal that would be a mistake.
01:40:08.000How do these things keep crashing if they're so good?
01:40:11.000If they can get here from somewhere else, why do they slam into the desert?
01:40:17.000Some of them have just been left in the desert, not crashed.
01:40:32.000She said that's how they were described to her.
01:40:35.000Yeah, so in fact, maybe some of them are donations to help us accelerate our forward motion.
01:40:46.000Maybe they donate something here, something in China, something in Russia, and see who is best at moving forward, just as part of their ISR evaluation of this.
01:41:56.000They're friendly and benign, and they just want us to know that if we get too frisky down here and think about having a nuclear war, they can stop it.
01:42:08.000And the Armada is on its way, and they just want to test that they can stop our use of nuclear weapons against them.
01:42:14.000So it's, from a security standpoint, from a DOD standpoint, from an intelligence community standpoint, you always have to have the worst scenario in your mind.
01:42:29.000Well, I would imagine from a security standpoint, it's a nightmare, because you're not secure at all.
01:42:35.000If something can fly over your airspace and you can't do anything about it and it can shut down your missiles or turn them on, you're in a very strange situation.
01:43:27.000I mean, it may be that we're a very special planet because we have all this water, which, generally speaking, is kind of rare.
01:43:35.000So, you know, maybe they'd like to slowly build up a connection with us so that they could take advantage of direct access to some of our resources.
01:43:57.000I mean, even when we shoot missiles at them or whatever.
01:44:01.000But there were a series of events in Calaris Island in Brazil back in the 80s, I think it was.
01:44:12.000And as part of our program, we investigated that in some detail, where over some long period, like weeks, And the Brazilian Air Force got involved.
01:44:27.000They got a thousand hours of film and they put a big Air Force group down there.
01:44:37.000And the UFOs were coming over and sending out beams that were actually harming people.
01:44:43.000That's our one example that stands out of there being apparent experience.
01:44:52.000Episodes where UFOs, there's no way to interpret it but as negative.
01:44:59.000So that makes you wonder, well, maybe there's just one particular group of...
01:45:32.000So there's a lot, I mean, it's still a big area that needs a lot of...
01:45:41.000And interestingly enough, even though this has been a tinfoil hat crowd kind of thing up until around 2017 when that New York Times story came out, suddenly that really made a difference because the people that were coming on board,
01:46:01.000that there's something real here, were people like Senator Harry Reid and other senators and so on.
01:46:07.000And so that sort of broke an open that, okay, there really is something here.
01:46:12.000And so as a result of that, that's how some of these programs have gotten pushed forward and reignited.
01:46:20.000How many of these crash crafts do you estimate there are that human beings have recovered?
01:48:29.000Because that would be the place, S4 would be the place where they would do that kind of work.
01:48:36.000I mean, if you wanted to do something like that in complete privacy and secrecy, you'd do it in the middle of the Nevada desert, very protected.
01:49:13.000Generator, the thing that powers the craft that Lazar talked about.
01:49:17.000What was your take on that, this idea that it was element 115, that when it encounters high radiation, it has some sort of an anti-gravitational effect, some warp effect?
01:49:41.000Are the effects being described reasonable descriptions of the kind of effects you think are associated with such craft?
01:49:50.000On the element 115, as you know, in the general scientific community, we've seen element 115, but it's very short-lived, so it's hard to evaluate.
01:50:01.000And at this point, there's no evidence that that's it.
01:50:32.000So in general, it was known and predicted that there was an island of stability, as we call it, on some of these higher elements in the periodic table that are beyond uranium and so on.
01:50:50.000But really no data predicted as to what their lifetimes would be.
01:51:25.000But his description of the anti-gravity effects and so on, that's an area that is well described as what you might expect.
01:51:42.000As it turns out in that series of 38 papers, one of my own papers, That I provided was one called space-time metric engineering.
01:51:53.000And when the pilots came to me and said, you know, drops down, takes off, right angle turn at Mach 10, you know, this is way beyond our physics.
01:52:06.000And I said earlier, no, I think it's not beyond our physics, it's beyond our engineering.
01:52:10.000But what I did on the physics level was...
01:52:13.000All of our electronics that we have here, for example, this microphone, the recording that you're making, and so that's all based on electromagnetic kinds of technologies, all of which come out of Maxwell's equations.
01:52:27.000Maxwell's equations, Clerk Maxwell, way back in the 1800s, developed the equations for electromagnetism, and basically any kind of electromagnetic device, you name it, Wi-Fi, Whatever.
01:52:44.000It can be traced back to this equation.
01:52:47.000So what I said to myself was, okay, we have these apparent craft operating with this unbelievable kinds of activity.
01:52:58.000Is there any way to account for that in our physics?
01:53:01.000So what I did, I took a sheet of paper, and the left-hand side of the paper, I wrote down all the weird effects that have been claimed.
01:53:09.000You know, right angle turn at Mach 10. I got close to the craft and suddenly it wasn't the same size as it seemed to be when I was further away.
01:54:16.000And I find out I got a hand-in-glove match.
01:54:21.000Between what was claiming to be observed and, you know, what Einstein's equation, if you could engineer them, well, why can't we engineer them?
01:54:31.000Well, at least what we know today is the energy density required to engineer those equations is just way beyond our ability to do so.
01:54:41.000Can you give me a comparison to what the energy requirements or something like that would be like?
01:54:50.000Alcubierre warp drive, I don't know if you've heard of that, but Miguel Alcubierre was a researcher in general relativity and kind of a Star Trek fan and so on.
01:55:01.000He said, I wonder if we could really have warp drive.
01:55:04.000And so he used Einstein's equations to say, okay, under what conditions could we do a warp drive?
01:55:12.000And he actually came up with solutions from out of the equations.
01:55:16.000Okay, what would it take to drive that?
01:55:19.000Oh, it would be hundreds of times more than the energy of the sun.
01:55:28.000So, you know, until we have a new energy source or until there's some backdoor that we haven't, you know, stewarded in on, it's just really outside of our...
01:55:45.000There could be conceivably some breakthrough and an understanding of this backdoor, like whatever it could be, some new type of science, new kind of understanding.
01:55:57.000And one of the things that I've looked into myself is, well, what about vacuum energy, so-called?
01:56:06.000As a quantum physicist, we all know that...
01:56:11.000You know, you push a kid in a swing and it comes down and stops.
01:56:17.000But at the quantum level, you get something going.
01:57:39.000I could tell you what it might look like.
01:57:43.000Along the way in the remote viewing program where we're kind of looking at physical effects, we decided to take a look at so-called levitating saints.
01:57:59.000And so, you know, you think, okay, well, that's a Catholic church trying to pretend it's got these magical people and whatever, whatever.
01:58:08.000But when you dig into the data, you find that that isn't it.
01:58:12.000It's that the church hated the idea that some...
01:58:18.000Individuals were levitating because they might be in the middle of giving Mass and suddenly they float up or whatever.
01:58:26.000So it turns out that even looking in the deep literature of the Inquisition and so on, the evidence is really solid that there have been levitating saints.
01:58:40.000And what the Catholic Church usually did is they squirreled them off into some monastery where nobody would see them.
01:58:45.000When you say levitating, what do you mean?
01:58:52.000Notable example happened during a visit to Italy from the Spanish ambassador.
01:58:56.000The ambassador had visited Joseph in his monastic cell and was so impressed that he wanted to return with his wife.
01:59:03.000Joseph entered the church where the couple hoped to meet him and upon seeing the statue of Mary, elevated 10 feet into the air, flew over the crowd to the statue, prayed, flew back to the door and returned home.
01:59:45.000Well, the only thing I can think of in terms of the physics we know today would be that somehow the vacuum energy, which can be very high if you cohered it.
01:59:58.000And if you made it non-random, you know, maybe that could do it.
02:00:03.000So perhaps he was able to access this with states of consciousness because he was so devout in his faith that upon seeing this, the experience was so overwhelming that he was somehow able to access this energy.
02:01:11.000And if these are very unique moments where this is an extremely devout person who obviously was a monk...
02:01:18.000Was probably meditating and achieving this insane state of consciousness that's almost impossible to get to unless you're committed as long as he was, unless you're as dedicated as he was, and then he has this overwhelming moment.
02:01:33.000And have no way to, you know, connect the physics to it.
02:01:38.000But the idea is that if there is energy that's allowing a person using their mind to do this, that somehow or another of this energy could be accessed.
02:01:47.000Through science, through physics, through engineering.
02:02:51.000Well, there's some modeling that says, well, maybe it's because if you try to accelerate through the vacuum fluctuations, it will push back on you.
02:03:01.000So that might be our first little touch that, okay, under conditions of acceleration, we do notice the background vacuum fluctuations.
02:03:14.000Well, since to a theorist, inertia and gravity are connected somehow, then it makes you think, okay, well, maybe there's some way of accessing vacuum fluctuations to control gravity.
02:04:14.000One of the consequences and one of the attributes that goes along with it is that frequencies get raised.
02:04:21.000And so the heat of a craft that you ordinarily wouldn't see can get raised up into the visible spectrum.
02:04:31.000And so that's why they might look so bright.
02:04:35.000That also has certain other digital consequences.
02:04:39.000If it's powered up and it's sitting there in the ground and you get too close, the ordinary heat spectrum, which isn't harmful, or the visible spectrum, which isn't harmful, can be shifted up frequency into the ultraviolet and soft x-ray.
02:04:55.000So if you get too close to a landing craft that's powered up, you might get a sunburn, which is one of the things that has been reported.
02:05:02.000Or you might actually, in fact, get...
02:05:05.000Radiation poisoning from x-rays and so on.
02:05:10.000So those kinds of things seem to go hand in hand and give us some clues of where to look.
02:05:16.000What does your take on the Travis Walton story?
02:05:19.000I think the Travis Walton story is right on.
02:06:22.000They suspect they might have killed him or something.
02:06:25.000Five days later, Travis appears, wearing the same clothes, looking none the worse for wear with this fantastic story that they took him aboard this craft and they communicated with him and fixed his body.
02:06:36.000That something happened to him upon the impact of whatever that ray was that hit him.
02:06:50.000And he's had the same story for decades.
02:06:53.000And one of the reasons I accept that story is that, for example, the other people who left the site and then went back, they eventually did polygraphs on them, and they passed the polygraphs.
02:07:06.000I mean, they weren't making up that story.
02:09:56.000So even after the SRI program got shut down, and after I came out to Austin in, what, 85 to set up EarthTech International and the Institute for Advanced Studies in Austin,
02:10:15.000Starting to pursue my physics stuff because I really wanted to pursue my physics.
02:10:18.000I didn't want to stay in looking at remote viewing forever.
02:10:21.000But I got calls from a certain intelligence agency asking me if I'd be willing to set up another program in remote viewing.
02:10:32.000And so I figured, okay, I turned them down because I liked it.
02:10:38.000So if they asked me that, chances are they asked somebody else that, and they've probably got somebody to agree to do it.
02:10:44.000And from time to time, many of the remote viewers that we trained in Army NSCOM, for example, have now retired from the Army, and they're teaching remote viewing classes,
02:11:05.000By somebody back in the intelligence community to check out something.
02:11:10.000I mean, they've been very prolific in, for example, detecting, say, cargo ships coming across the ocean where certain containers are full of dope.
02:11:45.000Yeah, but what I'm interested in is the possibility of things under the ocean.
02:11:51.000And I would imagine if I was running a remote viewing program and I had suspicions that there's activity under the ocean, like that craft that was seen that goes 500 knots under the water, that I would start looking under there.
02:12:04.000I can well imagine that somebody is...
02:12:06.000But you're just not aware of anything.
02:13:13.000So I forget exactly where we're at, but I know where I wanted to go.
02:13:17.000Where I wanted to go is we're talking about potential sources of energy, potential sources of propulsion systems.
02:13:29.000Do you consider the possibility that the things that people are seeing are ours?
02:13:35.000They're made in some top-secret program using some advanced propulsion system, some advanced energy system that is not publicly disclosed?
02:13:48.000I wouldn't rule out the fact that we may have some pretty fancy things running from our own labs.
02:13:58.000What gets developed in the dark labs, some of which I know about, are really advanced, but it just can't cover the whole observation that we're seeing with what we call NHI craft,
02:14:15.000But do you think that some of this stuff has been back-engineered from these non-human crafts?
02:14:21.000Some of the materials, I would say, yes.
02:14:24.000I think we've got some, I mean, it's out on the web these days that, for example, Battelle Institute has supposedly were given some materials from the Roswell crash,
02:14:46.000and we always hear the descriptions of this foil that you could...
02:14:50.000Crumple up and then you let go and it just flattens out again and so on.
02:14:56.000So material of that type was provided to Battelle and they worked on it for some years to try to see if they could reproduce it and the claim is that and it's in the public domain that nitinol came out of it which is that material that It can be heated and then it'll reform into its original source.
02:15:22.000It doesn't exactly reproduce the effect you saw, but some of it is kind of in the direction of that.
02:15:29.000And it turned out that some of the main material engineers that worked on that, at their deathbed, they told their relatives that they were working on pieces from the Roswell crash.
02:15:43.000And they made some progress, but not a lot.
02:15:46.000You can look that up on the internet and see that that's the case.
02:15:50.000Is part of the limitation, this thing that we were discussing earlier about compartmentalization and the lack of ability of other scientists to get access to this material so they can collaborate?
02:16:01.000Yes, the compartmentalization, I would say, is the biggest impediment to making really good progress.
02:17:03.000To the top floor for their own scientists to look at because it was so compartmentalized.
02:17:08.000And so that was part of the deal where we said, okay, well, give them to us, and then we'll come in the front door and give them to your scientists.
02:17:18.000And we won't say it came from your basement, and we won't say what it had to do with.
02:17:24.000But that got shut down, so it was so compartmentalized.
02:17:29.000Compartmentalization is really a death knell on much of this stuff.
02:17:33.000As I say, as I go back to my teller story, more collaboration, even though there are faults that can happen and material can leak out and information can leak out and that might help an adversary.
02:17:50.000Still, I think more openness would be a better idea.
02:18:41.000We had this discussion earlier about, you know, for example, the row viewing or quantum entanglement or, you know, what's going on in our physics that we don't understand that these kinds of things can be happening.
02:18:57.000And you'll be interested to know that someone you know, John Paul DiGiorgio, and I are in partnership to explore a new, And so I'm actually now,
02:19:18.000at this point, directly involved in a program to examine quantum communications.
02:19:24.000And so it turns out that whereas ordinary electromagnetic communications, you know, can't get through barriers, a metal door or whatever.
02:19:35.000It's because the electromagnetic signal...
02:19:37.000When it gets to the metal door, the electric and magnetic fields generate counteracting effects, and so the signal can't get through.
02:19:46.000So it turned out that some years ago, when I was digging around to try to find out how to explain unusual effects, I dug deeper into electromagnetism down into the quantum levels and recognized that there are some additional quantum processes.
02:20:06.000Where you could end up suppressing the electric and magnetic fields, but you would still have a quantum signal, which in principle could get through barriers.
02:20:17.000And so that would mean, okay, that's the case, and you could communicate to submarines.
02:20:24.000So whereas the salt water is sufficiently conductive, the electromagnetic signal can't get down there and communicate.
02:20:34.000Pull out the electric and magnetic components, but you still have an underlying quantum aspect to it, you could get through.
02:20:42.000Or same thing with, you know, spaceships.
02:20:44.000You know, when our spaceships came back from, when the Apollo spaceships came back, once they started in our atmosphere and are surrounded by plasma, we have this period where there's no communication.
02:20:56.000Well, for the very reason that electromagnetic signals can't get through charged plasmas.
02:21:02.000But this quantum communication aspect could.
02:21:08.000How would you encode the information quantumly, and how would you project it?
02:21:13.000What kind of machinery would be involved in something like that?
02:21:16.000Well, it turns out that the machinery to generate the signals would be very explicitly designed antenna structures.
02:21:26.000They're put together in such a way as to prevent electromagnetic...
02:21:35.000It's the detection part where the secret to the technology is because it turns out that, okay, if electromagnetic signals aren't there, how are you going to detect such a signal?
02:21:50.000Because all of our detectors are, you know, electromagnetic signal comes in and generates a current and whatever.
02:22:56.000There are a couple of physicists, well, the physicist and anesthesiologist, the physicist Roger Penrose, who got a Nobel Prize for general relativity stuff, and Stu Hameroff, who is an anesthesiologist,
02:23:12.000they coupled up and started saying, okay, is there a possibility that there are quantum aspects in ordinary life, in ordinary consciousness?
02:23:26.000The anesthesiologist says, well, when I give somebody a certain anesthetic, they lose consciousness.
02:23:31.000So there must be something about the anesthesia that grabs onto whatever's responsible for consciousness.
02:23:39.000So to make a long story short, they came up with a model where they felt that there are, in fact, quantum processes occurring within the brain.
02:23:49.000That in addition to the stuff we all read about and know about, like neurons and all that kind of stuff, there's also a distribution throughout our brain and nervous system of what's called microtubules.
02:24:03.000And it turns out microtubules have such a structure, you do experiments in lab to show this, that they can detect quantum signals.
02:24:15.000So the idea that even in our consciousness...
02:24:19.000There are mechanisms for detecting quantum signals.
02:24:23.000It's like a whole new area to investigate.
02:24:26.000And so there are some biological and consciousness-oriented experimenters that are taking a look at this idea that, okay, instead of just saying quantum entanglement, that's how information you get from here to there,
02:24:44.000maybe we can actually find out, okay, well, what's the mechanism, though?
02:25:18.000Well, it turns out the quantum detectors were very new kinds of circuitry, nothing ready for prime time.
02:25:31.000So I put that whole thing on the shelf, let it sit there for a while.
02:25:36.000And now, because of quantum computing, it turns out a lot of research effort is going to develop.
02:25:44.000Cryogenic circuitry near absolute zero to be used in quantum computing.
02:25:49.000So I said, okay, they got these Josephson junctions working, which is exactly what I want to use for my detection scheme.
02:25:57.000And so I finally decided to take it off the shelf.
02:26:00.000So I approached JP and showed him what the potential was.
02:26:09.000Not only in just communications, but maybe it has implications for biological things or medical things or whatever because of this other work on microtubules.
02:26:20.000So he said, okay, well, let's go for it.
02:26:24.000So we have another major lab that is actually putting together circuitry for us that operates about 3.7 degrees above absolute zero.
02:26:47.000Quantum entanglement, is that what you think was going on with the algae?
02:26:51.000So if you were able to do something to the algae in one area, this same colony of algae, when you had separated by long distances, they instantaneously recognized that something was happening?
02:27:04.000That's the only thing I can imagine at this point based on the physics we know.
02:27:09.000How far were they separated in distance?
02:27:14.000As it turns out, I never actually got to do that experiment because the CIA came and scooped me up and said, well, we've got to look at this remote viewing.
02:27:22.000And so even though I proposed doing the experiment, the polygraph guys said this would be a great experiment.
02:27:31.000Never got around to doing the experiment because along the way, Ingo Swann, you know, visited his lab, came out and perturbed the tiny quantum chip in the super shielded environment.
02:27:47.000That brought the CIA on my doorstep, and so then we went off in that direction.
02:27:52.000So as you consider all these technologies, as these innovations occur and technology becomes more and more powerful, like quantum computing, like many of these things that we're seeing now, do you think that these are all steps to further understand how these crafts could possibly work,
02:28:13.000and we're getting closer and closer to it, Disclosure would accelerate that and we would have to get over this.
02:28:24.000We'd have to have some sort of amnesty.
02:28:30.000That misappropriated funds and lied to Congress, amnesty towards whatever defense contractors were given access to this equipment or these materials and other ones.
02:28:40.000There has to be some executive decision that's made where, like, look, for the greater good of the human race, we have to bypass all of these blockades that are involved in us being able to truly understand what's going on here.
02:28:53.000And one of them is we have to have disclosure.
02:30:21.000It's an officiated panel of people from several different areas and all those people out there who have materials and so on.
02:30:33.000We're going to practice eminent domain, which turns out to be one of the things that turns people's hair on fire when they think they've got something and don't want to share it.
02:30:43.000But anyway, we have to come up with a process whereby...
02:30:50.000Corporations that have been involved in this can begin to share their history and their data and their materials.
02:30:59.000And the National Archives will be set up to make this information available, as is safe to do, considering security concerns.
02:31:11.000And so this is a multi-page document that you can find.
02:31:20.000It passed the Senate, but the House killed it.
02:31:26.000So you might think, okay, well, that's the end of that.
02:31:30.000Surprisingly so, and it makes you realize the intensity of this, after it was killed, both Schumer and Rounds got back up in the Senate floor and said, okay, it got killed, but we're not giving up.
02:31:46.000We're going to get it in there next year.
02:31:48.000And so the following year, 2024, they included it again.
02:31:58.000The only thing that got killed was, okay, the National Archives will make available whatever information is provided them on this subject area.
02:32:06.000And the National Archives has started to do that.
02:32:09.000But as you can imagine, anybody who's got some really juicy stuff isn't going to give it to the National Archives.
02:32:17.000So anyway, recently I was asked to come in and brief Senator Rounds, who was one of the two people who pushed this.
02:32:26.000And he said, we're not giving up on this.
02:32:31.000Give me what you've found so far about the physics of this.
02:32:37.000Because when we try to push it, we always get the pushback that, well...
02:32:43.000You know, we're not going to make any headway.
02:32:45.000The pilots say this is way beyond our physics, but I understand that you and your colleagues have worked on this and felt that you can provide some of the physics.
02:32:54.000We may not get the engineering yet, but we have some place to start.
02:32:58.000Because I need to push back on the pushback.
02:33:01.000So I gave them a long lecture on the physics, which I've also presented to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the Senate Armed Services Committee.
02:33:13.000ARO, the all-domain anomalies resolution office.
02:33:20.000So the information is coming out into those places, and so there are those people in high positions of power in our Congress who are really pushing it.
02:33:37.000So, for example, as it turns out, tomorrow there's going to be a big meeting.
02:33:42.000I think it was set up by Representative Luna.
02:33:49.000You know, when they put out that official document saying, okay, JFK files are coming out, RFK files are coming out, MLK files are coming out.
02:34:01.000In that list, UFO files are coming out.
02:34:12.000So in fact, as it turns out, tomorrow there's going to be a big thing in Congress where they're going to have an open hearing with people coming forward to talk about that there should be some release of some steps forward to release this kind of data.
02:34:57.000When you talked about during the Bush administration, you were tasked, along with others, to try to figure out what are the pros and what are the cons and what outweighs what.
02:35:05.000And your group decided that the cons outweighed the pros.
02:35:10.000When it comes to disclosure today with the risk of espionage...
02:35:15.000And with the risk of this information, if it becomes disclosed and everybody has access to it, clearly if it's disclosed to the general public, it's also going to be disclosed to our enemies.
02:35:33.000Well, this write-up that Schumer and Rounds and some other people, Gillibrand and Rubio, put together said, okay.
02:35:43.000We're going to have to lay everything out on the table at a highly classified area.
02:35:48.000We're going to have to sort our way through of what can be released that doesn't take the chance of giving our potential adversaries data they need to leap ahead of us.
02:36:03.000But nonetheless, we've got to have more collaboration so that we can move ahead faster.
02:36:10.000So that's the job of, at least in that document, of a nine-person panel to figure out, okay, what could be released without jeopardizing our national security so much, but nonetheless accelerating the kind of collaboration we need to make headway faster.
02:36:29.000And then there's the issue of when it does get disclosed.
02:36:34.000Like, what happens to the general public's perception?
02:36:38.000If this is like a national disclosure, if the president, if Trump gets on television and discloses everything we know so far, we are in possession of 10 vehicles, however you want to call them,
02:36:54.000of non-human intelligence that are not ours.
02:36:56.000We have been working on this for decades in secrecy.
02:37:01.000Because of the fact that everything has been so secret and everything is so compartmentalized, innovation has been stagnant.
02:37:08.000Our understanding of it has been stagnant.
02:37:45.000And you have people come forward and said, look, I can give you the address of where the stuff is stored so we can take this out of the discussion area and really prove something.
02:38:00.000But it would take, I think, a presidential executive order or something to light a fire under that process to have it happen.
02:38:31.000At that time, there was a lot of stigma.
02:38:34.000There was no proof you could kind of put your hands on.
02:38:40.000There was, in fact, purposely designed misinformation by the intelligence community.
02:38:47.000The so-called Robertson panel went out of their way to say this is all nonsense.
02:38:54.000So that was something you're dealing with.
02:38:55.000So there you realize, well, if I come forward and say there's really something to this, I'm really blasting through quite a brick wall here.
02:39:03.000But in the intervening decades, I think we've gotten to a point where the reasons we had to not do it then are no longer applicable.
02:39:18.000But some of the concerns we had discussed then.
02:39:26.000So I think, for example, this film that you saw that had its premiere at South by Southwest that Dan Farrell put out, and an upcoming book coming out by Jay Stratton,
02:39:41.000who was in charge of the UAP task force, these kind of things are going to accelerate that option.
02:39:51.000And so I think it's only a matter, I mean, I would find it difficult to believe that within a decade we're not going to figure out how to do this and that there will be what you and I would call disclosure, but in a responsible way where we're not providing the enemy information they need.
02:40:14.000I mean, I recall when the DOD program was set up out of DIA, they said, well, We need to investigate this to find out whose craft there are, how do they run, and whatever, whatever.
02:40:29.000And then the second reason was, what if our potential adversaries get access or figure this out from their data collection before we do, and they leap ahead of us.
02:40:42.000So it turned out that whole program was not based on one.
02:40:45.000They couldn't care less where these things were coming from, what their intentions were.
02:40:50.000They're really worried about the possibility of an adversary getting ahead of us.
02:40:54.000So that was the driving force behind the whole program.
02:40:57.000Well, now having all these intervening years go by and, you know, there hasn't been any obvious super breakthrough by adversaries.
02:41:08.000I think now is the time we could have a kind of a reconciliation process, make sure we don't put everybody in jail and anything to do with covering this up.
02:41:18.000Provide proper lanes to bring various aspects of information forward.
02:41:25.000And so that's what I and colleagues that I interact with are trying to do today.
02:41:32.000I would also think that if I was looking at civilization, particularly United States civilization, and thinking what kind of an impact would things have in 2004 with disclosure,
02:41:48.000And what kind of an impact would they have in 2025?
02:41:51.000I think that this gradual acceptance and this understanding that this is probably a real phenomenon is much more widespread today.
02:42:02.000So the concept of it, it wouldn't be as shocking as it would have been two decades ago.
02:42:08.000you know two decades ago by the way is when the the tic tac vehicle was was observed which is 2004 which is really kind of crazy when you think about the technology that was required to do something and then imagine that that
02:42:23.000technology being ours in 2004 it seems preposterous right it seems almost outside of the realm of even whatever top-secret programs could have been running some black programs could have been
02:42:40.000I think a big breakthrough, and I think you probably agree, was the New York Times.
02:42:44.000That 2017 report in the New York Times was huge because here it is in the most prestigious newspaper in the United States, in the world.
02:42:52.000And it's saying, look, there's real things happening here.
02:42:56.000And there's real people who are at a very high level who are talking about these things.
02:43:00.000Whether it's Commander Fravor or Ryan Graves or all these different fighter pilots that have encountered these things that are just doing something that is beyond explanation.
02:43:41.000Just the potential of, like, what do we look like in a million years?
02:43:46.000What do we look like in a million years?
02:43:48.000And if we, you know, existed in this form for hundreds of thousands of years, it's not inconceivable that a species like us could keep going with its innovative trajectory and achieve some state a million years from now that is just beyond our imagination currently.
02:44:10.000And that we might be experiencing that.
02:44:13.000I think you have laid out an exact map of the real situation and what the future probably holds for us and the fact that now is the time,
02:44:28.000sooner rather than later, to begin to have this become part of our total philosophical fabric to face into this.
02:44:38.000And to accept the reality of non-human intelligences, for example, and recognize that our own technical development is moving so fast that the kind of things that we find to be so mysterious are pretty much likely in our not-that-far-off future.
02:44:59.000Well, just what we see with the leaps that quantum computing is able to achieve.
02:45:04.000Equations that would take standard computing billions of years.
02:46:09.000So that's sort of the position that we kind of have been in to see these craft that we get access to either through crashes or, quote, donations.
02:46:19.000And, you know, it's really mysterious.
02:46:22.000but nonetheless we should do our best.
02:46:26.000And these days, because of the development of quantum technology,
02:46:34.000We have AI on our side to move fast through some calculations and stuff.
02:46:40.000So I think this is the time where disclosure is going to happen and relatively soon.
02:46:49.000If it does happen, it's thanks to people like you that stuck their neck out for many, many years, and I'm sure you experienced a lot of ridicule and side eyes.
02:46:59.000In fact, I remember when I was involved in the remote viewing program, one of my sons was attending a grammar school, and one day another father's kid came over to play with him, and when the other...
02:47:17.000A professor, actually, at Stanford came over and said, I brought my kid over to play with you, but his last name is Puthoff.
02:47:24.000Are you associated with that Puthoff at SRI and that remote viewing?
02:48:37.000Well, it feels like a gift for me because it's so fascinating, and I've been obsessed with it my whole life, as I think a lot of people are, who look into it at all and realize there's something of substance there.