In this episode of Conspiracy Theories, host Joe Rogan chats with Alex Blumberg about UFOs, aliens, and the Anunnaki. Alex talks about how he became interested in UFOs and lost technology, and why he thinks they could be real.
00:02:19.000Back then, I was much more in line with lost civilization, you know, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication, and there was no aliens, no alien intervention.
00:02:38.000Well, I remember, I feel like you've switched back and forth.
00:02:42.000couple of times because you brought up you were super into Zachariah Sitchin right yes and then you brought up Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting and you were like but there's this site Sitchin is wrong written by a guy named Michael Heiser and then you like cited all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or whatever yeah so maybe you've come full circle I don't know well even the Sitchin is wrong stuff it's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with
00:03:04.000When you're dealing with information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages, you know, like I had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to me, he's great, but he was explaining to me that he can't even read ancient Sumerian.
00:06:13.000He's great at generating these viral moments where people yell at each other and it makes clips and someone gets clowned and someone looks stupid.
00:06:20.000I don't know if that's good for society.
00:06:52.000And, you know, Elon actually tweeted about this today.
00:06:54.000Are there any real people left on the Internet?
00:06:56.000Because it's the numbers are at least 50 percent, like the amount of bots that are engaging and interacting.
00:07:04.000It's a weird time for information because it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and all sorts of different people because there's no rules.
00:07:21.000There should be real solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings to push narratives because it's propaganda.
00:08:32.000I think you also posted that Zurich-like study around AI persuasiveness, which is crazy because If they can trick you into believing, into you believing that they're real, that's it.
00:09:57.000This is a story that was relayed to me, but if you have AI persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI hits some perfectly Turing passable point.
00:10:11.000You're gonna get this, like, these weird cult-like dynamics.
00:10:14.000Like, the meta-sociological thing is you're gonna get, like, religions dedicated to AI.
00:10:41.000I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit.
00:10:45.000I had also read that there was another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself and that it was attempting to – they were told – it was told to – Oh, my God.
00:11:15.000It's like a human with, like, a dead man switch or something.
00:11:43.000Which is part of the weirdness of it all.
00:11:44.000As it advances, like, I was talking to Elon about it once, and he was saying, like, every week we get blown away.
00:11:52.000Like, every week there's some new leap that's just like, whoa.
00:11:56.000You know, and, you know, he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff, and now he's like, well, I guess we just have to make the best one.
00:12:28.000Relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems during the 10-year period beginning.
00:14:07.000Just, you know, establish a bunch of sounds and characters that correspond to certain things.
00:14:14.000they could create its own language instantaneously and chat GPT right now has Oh, wow.
00:14:21.000Putting Claude 4 Opus in an open playground to chat with itself led to diving into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and by 30 turns, it eventually started using Sanskrit.
00:14:38.000In 90 to 100% of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and or the nature of their own existence and experience.
00:14:52.000But then you speak to a lot of AI researchers.
00:14:54.000It's interesting to see Jeff Hinton, for example, at Google, who's the father of deep learning, freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI.
00:15:03.000A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, this is statistics on steroids.
00:15:47.000Like if my grandmother was doing this, Like there's ways to get the prompt to give you information that probably shouldn't, you know?
00:15:54.000There's stuff with UFO research where I get into like – And you can ask ChatGPT certain things, like analyze this paper, and it'll spit out some really interesting things.
00:16:24.000If the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered from lower primates to make this super curious, hyper-focused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation, like overall, the thing that we do as a culture.
00:16:44.000And even our own instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses, all that stuff essentially fuels innovation because it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people want to go out and purchase.
00:16:57.000You know, you can't have an iPhone 12. People are like, what are you, poor?
00:17:01.000You know, which is kind of wild, you know?
00:17:03.000Because a lot of technology is essentially exactly the same as it was 20, 15 years ago.
00:17:23.000What's the ultimate expression of technology?
00:17:26.000Technology that itself invents better technology and can run everything without emotions that fuck us up and greed and all the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings.
00:17:49.000Like everything from way back in the day from stuff that like Neanderthals were using to the 50s and 60s with airplanes is making our lives better in the world of atoms.
00:18:02.000And then with the IT revolution in the 50s and 60s, it starts to become a paradoxical.
00:18:07.000Parasite, a substitute for human ability.
00:18:10.000And so I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google Maps.
00:18:12.000My recall, I don't need recall because I Google or whatever.
00:18:16.000And so it is this interesting thing where we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with nuclear bombs.
00:18:25.000And if there were some guardrails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like, hey, go play with your IT.
00:18:35.000Go substitute a lot of your own abilities and powers with this.
00:18:39.000We're going to parasitize and clamp down on human abilities.
00:21:20.000So I think if you extrapolate that forwards or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the U.S., none of these things look very good.
00:21:36.000You throw these sort of Hail Marys and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift either in technology, which can create abundance if we go back to the old tech that is augmenting of human abilities.
00:21:46.000You get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that.
00:21:52.000Or you reach out and maybe you can communicate with non-human intelligence or something.
00:23:58.000And then at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some, you know, AGI that like starts trading?
00:24:04.000And, you know, Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance Technologies on your show, which we can get into.
00:24:09.000But like, you know, Renaissance Technologies made like $100 billion or something since like, you know, 1988.
00:24:15.000What if you get some super AGI or whatever that, like, trades the market and, like, all of the wealth gets, like, sucked up into, like, you know, single entities?
00:24:23.000Or, like, one of these, like, one of the fang stocks.
00:24:25.000Like, one of these, like, you know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or OpenAI.
00:24:30.000You end up with a really weird society.
00:24:33.000And you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive.
00:24:40.000I mean, look, the flip side is what makes humans unique.
00:24:57.000I think he got so much wrong about human nature, but I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed for, you know, as a solution, you know, that the state should own all the means of production and, you know, somehow, like, you know, conflict would go away.
00:25:15.000But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about in capitalism, human behavior and activity is basically animal behavior.
00:25:27.000We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially, so that you can mate.
00:25:36.000And so, like, it sort of forces us back into that construct.
00:25:40.000But if you get some crazy asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth or you get the quantum error correction or any of these things that, like, dissolve that construct, on the one hand, humans, you know— They start to care about the things that actually make them special.
00:26:00.000All these beautiful things can come out.
00:26:02.000And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well.
00:26:06.000There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing.
00:26:14.000Yeah, but it's one of those things where you wonder, how does capitalism play out if there is AI?
00:26:23.000It kind of runs into a wall and it's not valid anymore.
00:26:29.000Well, this is the reason that I think we're going to see...
00:26:40.000And then I think there's stuff out in the open.
00:26:43.000And you've had Mark Andreessen on your podcast.
00:26:45.000He went to the White House, spoke to some National Security Council staffer or something, and they were like, we're going to lock down AI just like we've locked down physics.
00:26:54.000And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts.
00:26:58.000You know, super secret Department of Energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened.
00:27:02.000You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since?
00:27:23.000Like, you probably need some, like, really impressive panel.
00:27:27.000To be thinking, if OpenAI figures out some, like, new, insane, exciting unlock, you need to think through, you need to game out all of the implications before you just let that out.
00:27:38.000Can you even do that with a human mind?
00:28:04.000But isn't that probably what we're here for?
00:28:08.000Let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories, which is that human beings were genetically engineered.
00:28:14.000Well, if you wanted to seed the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us, how would you manifest that?
00:28:25.000You would do it exactly how it's being done right now.
00:28:28.000And you would take human beings and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turned them into dogs.
00:28:36.000And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project, look at what's happening to testosterone levels, look at what's happening with microplastics, the endocrine disruptors, we're essentially weakening the human skeletal system and endocrine system, our hormonals are all down, our miscarriages are up, birth rates are lower.
00:29:05.000We're moving towards in vitro fertilization.
00:29:08.000I was watching some guy on TV today, and he was on a panel, and he was explaining that our grandchildren are going to laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's going to be doing that.
00:29:19.000Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and Down syndrome and all sorts of chromosomal issues.
00:30:04.000We are being, a dog is to a wolf what we are to, They lose the melanin in their skin.
00:30:14.000That's what happens when you become domesticated.
00:30:16.000So there is a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book and he goes deep into all of the abductions.
00:30:23.000Like he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill and he'll be like, this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time.
00:30:31.000And in many cases, abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a form.
00:30:39.000pathogen, you know, tissue samples by, you know, genetic samples or Is it the future or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage?
00:30:53.000Not us in the future, but they're more advanced.
00:30:56.000Like maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12,000 years or whatever the fuck happens here.
00:31:10.000Possible, but then we would have to be sort of an A-B test.
00:31:13.000Because if you think about just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever is extremely low.
00:31:34.000You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different...
00:32:07.000And then as the planets move further and further from the Sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere, in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore.
00:32:26.000And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the Sun.
00:32:30.000And as they move further and further from the Sun, they become habitable and then less habitable and then uninhabitable.
00:32:38.000And we're kind of finding that out about Mars.
00:33:45.000Like the base of a building, you know, a million years later or whatever the hell it is.
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00:35:07.000And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere at some point.
00:35:12.000And it was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere.
00:35:15.000And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid 90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH 84001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, had like...
00:35:31.000He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars due to this.
00:35:45.000He talks about the existence of xenon 129 and argon 40, these specific nuclear isotopes existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a, normal sort of cataclysm.
00:36:02.000And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars.
00:36:05.000And then, yeah, you have Joseph McMoneagle, who's remote viewer number one.
00:36:09.000You've had Hal Puthoff on, who ran the Stargate program.
00:36:11.000Joseph McMoneagle is the number one remote viewer in that program.
00:37:11.000That would point to maybe, like, I would believe that if, like, our whole universe is sort of information theoretic.
00:37:17.000So, like, you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from Princeton, you know, saying we live in this sort of observer-dependent universe.
00:37:25.000He talks about, like, the anthropic principle, like, where Planck's constant, we're slightly different.
00:37:29.000the Earth's atmosphere wouldn't exist as is.
00:37:32.000And another example is like, That's just because of these perfect crystal structures.
00:37:48.000And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood like a million times over.
00:37:52.000You know, the Earth is mostly water, right?
00:37:53.000So you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards The Earth has been tried in a bajillion iterations, and we just got really lucky.
00:38:56.000You have cultures actually talking about a pre-moon period, and it's stabilizing the climate.
00:39:00.000You have the Zulu cultures talking about this.
00:39:03.000And then, this is the weirdest stuff about the moon.
00:39:07.000Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, oh, we think it might be hollow, and it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense.
00:39:21.000Or sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site.
00:39:26.000That's obviously, you know, on Earth, the lower you go, it's more dense, right?
00:39:30.000And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle onto the moon.
00:39:38.000They put seismometers there, and they said that it rang like a bell.
00:39:42.000This is all that you could look all this stuff.
00:40:39.000It's like he then ends up in a supermarket and he says that he senses that this woman at the, you know, the produce aisle is like an alien or something.
00:40:46.000But a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed, you know, structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing.
00:40:53.000Well, AJ from the Y Files was on, and he was the one that was telling us that there's photos, right, of the dark side of the moon, that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly, that there were structures, that, wow, this is going to be the biggest news ever, and that it was never released?
00:41:12.000Are you talking about maybe Carl Wolf?
00:41:54.000Scan one section of the moon, then another, and another, and then they would get a larger image.
00:41:59.000So this mosaic, then, would be put in that contact printer, and that was then a print that was issued to whomever, the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go.
00:42:11.000So he was showing me how all this worked and we walked over to one side of the lab and he said, "By the way, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon." What do you mean, whose?
00:42:24.000He said, yes, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon.
00:42:28.000And at that point, I became frightened and was a little terrified, thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're in jeopardy, we're in trouble, because he shouldn't be giving me this information.
00:42:42.000I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over.
00:42:48.000And then he pulled out one of these mosaics and showed this base, which had geometric shapes.
00:44:49.000But then there's the question of disinformation, right?
00:44:54.000Like you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense.
00:45:00.000And tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak and it won't be verified and it's going to make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less likely or reluctant to study it.
00:45:14.000And in his case, he says that he was in this mountain base or whatever.
00:47:58.000His father is Bill Lear, who is the autopilot wizard.
00:48:01.000He created the first business, you know, basically the first private jet, the Learjet, in the 50s and 60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown.
00:48:12.000And so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit.
00:48:15.000Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur?
00:48:20.000I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot.
00:48:22.000In fact, there is a video of him saying, I was told, I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever, and I was told about, you know, to actually, like, he said, a guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth.
00:48:42.000I even have this video actually on the doc that I sent you, Jamie.
00:49:09.000And the MJ personnel, the original 12 have all passed away so they get different people It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ-12.
00:49:36.000It turns out that MJ-1, the head of MJ-12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan.
00:49:42.000He wanted to get some of the information out because he thought that some of this information should be out in the public.
00:49:51.000We don't need to keep all this secrecy.
00:49:54.000So he decided, trying to figure out a way to get it to the public.
00:49:58.000So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew.
00:50:04.000They investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, but that he had a background such They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything.
00:51:07.000To go up to work at S4, because they knew that Bob would tell me instantly, and then I would blab the whole thing.
00:51:15.000And that was their modus separandi, was to get the information out, engage what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, no, it was all a mistake.
00:51:45.000And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world.
00:51:49.000He's not saying it didn't happen, right?
00:51:51.000He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy, where they knew that they could...
00:52:00.000They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel.
00:52:03.000They knew that they were, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller serendipitously.
00:52:12.000They knew that they had plausible deniability on all that stuff.
00:52:15.000There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer In spite of his communist sympathies, I hired him because of them.
00:52:26.000If you have a top-secret program, you want compromise on people.
00:52:29.000You want to be able to blackmail them.
00:52:31.000And so I think, you know, that should be taken at face value, in my opinion.
00:52:37.000And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob Lazar got a job at Area 51, S4.
00:52:51.000And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background check.
00:52:55.000And Lear is going to come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right?
00:53:07.000And he says that he disaffiliated in 83. That's bullshit.
00:53:10.000George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell have talked about how that's BS.
00:53:14.000And actually he disaffiliated much later, into the mid-80s or whatever.
00:53:17.000Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets?
00:53:23.000And then the guards at Area 51 knew John Lear.
00:53:27.000John Lear and Jim Goodall, his buddy, who's a photographer, had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade.
00:53:33.000Like, the security guards there knew him.
00:53:36.000Jeremy Corbell has talked about in interviews, like, I would go with John Lear, and he would show me around or whatever, and they would, like, let him through.
00:53:43.000And before leaking the Bob Lazar story to George Knapp, he leaked a story about the F-117, which is the first stealth craft in the U.S. And so I think that helped establish sort of, you know, credibility or legitimacy.
00:53:56.000Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur?
00:53:59.000There's a photo of John Lear with G. Gordon Liddy.
00:54:15.000Yeah, he probably would have won, but there was a driving thing at the end, and he couldn't drive well without glasses, and you weren't allowed to wear glasses.
00:54:56.000But I think that's what fucked him up in the final stunt.
00:54:59.000He couldn't see well without his glasses.
00:55:03.000So this is the thing they had to like, They were dunked into the water over and over again and then they had to like take flags off of them or something like that.
01:00:11.000He thought that this was this really important modality.
01:00:14.000He and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross-sections on planes.
01:00:22.000And that's where the F-117 came and you know the B-2 was sort of the response to that and it sort of took off in the 80s.
01:00:30.000And he was extremely Scared about about tech protection at the time and he was hyper vigilant and he would actively complain about it And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time pretty crazy, right?
01:00:49.000And there's also, in 1986, there's a budget line item in the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora.
01:00:56.000And this is this super stealthy craft that's post F-117.
01:01:03.000Like today, nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real.
01:01:06.000And the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR-71 or the space shuttle.
01:01:14.000And so there was something being flown around at that time that was causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for.
01:01:21.000And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, I saw the Aurora.
01:01:25.000It was around at the time and it sort of just took off or whatever.
01:01:31.000Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff, because why are you exposing some probably classified tech?
01:01:38.000I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real.
01:01:41.000There was an oil rig engineer in the North Sea, or sorry, it might have been the Black Sea, that sketched it out, and Bill Sweetman, this Jane's Defense Weekly aviation journalist, you know, picked that story up.
01:02:38.000And that's not to say, I don't want to, again, pour cold water on the UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there.
01:02:45.000But is there a tech tree that involves anti-gravity?
01:02:49.000Absolutely, in the U.S. I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown.
01:02:56.000So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us.
01:03:56.000It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think any even reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say, if you could reconcile them, that's possible.
01:04:10.000I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally.
01:04:15.000I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally.
01:04:19.000And so there's this whole hidden history involving antigravity, and I get into this in my show with Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein, where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified.
01:05:00.000But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with.
01:05:04.000And so he looked into U.S. efforts into, you know, UFO research, but also specifically anti-gravity.
01:05:10.000And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, U.S. efforts into anti-gravity are far deeper than meet the eye.
01:05:20.000And Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force, is total BS.
01:05:27.000Meant to, you know, stigmatize UFOs and throw people off the trail.
01:05:32.000And it's actually, you know, this now declassified document around the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel, that kind of created the constitution for Blue Book.
01:05:41.000All shows that this was the case with Blue Book.
01:05:44.000He says, actually, there were secret anti-gravity programs going on at the time, and they involved, and he lists names, Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller.
01:05:55.000The head of the nuclear program in Australia.
01:06:00.000And so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this official government document saying this stuff.
01:06:04.000Does this line up with any artifacts at the time?
01:06:07.000Well, actually, in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal, by a guy named Michael Gladich.
01:06:17.000And he is quoting all of the industry experts.
01:06:21.000Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about.
01:08:07.000So the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor.
01:08:13.000In between the two is an insulator called the high-K dielectric.
01:08:18.000So it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.
01:08:23.000You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity.
01:08:28.000And Brown used to do it with DC, direct current pulses.
01:08:32.000And you see thrust going from the negative to...
01:08:38.000And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust, right?
01:08:53.000If you do this in a depressurized vacuum chamber, where there basically is no air to create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it.
01:09:11.000He talked about the Casimir effect, which is a real effect that involves not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract.
01:09:24.000There's the Aronoff-Bohm effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic four potential.
01:09:28.000There are other effects in physics where you can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are harbingers, if you will, of the next paradigm.
01:09:37.000I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm.
01:09:44.000Black body radiation is a great example.
01:09:45.000It was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff.
01:09:49.000We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he actually discovered quanta.
01:09:57.000The orbit of Mercury is another good example, where we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had space-time curvature in Einstein.
01:11:46.000Another very credentialed person, if we're on that, a guy named Carl Nell, who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B2 stealth bomber.
01:12:24.000Can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff?
01:12:27.000Or is it all kind of metaphysical and not even wrong, as Feynman would say?
01:12:33.000And he goes, well, if you want some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown.
01:12:40.000And so I've gotten this time and time again where I've had all these private experiences with Brown where I'm like, is anybody seeing this?
01:13:12.000In 1915, he was caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil.
01:13:22.000Then at age 12, the World War government under Woodrow Wilson, it was probably the local government, told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created, an antenna that he had created, like this walkie-talkie system that he had developed at the time.
01:13:36.000And there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that totally corroborate this.
01:15:31.000He then shows a fan precipitator experiment, which really shows the electrodynamic effect.
01:15:38.000Which is similar but not the same as the the electromagnetism gravity thing to Edward Teller the father of the H-bomb and Edward Teller himself says I don't know how this works and then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter and I have this by the way on a phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter who's saying this all happened it turns to To her, and she says, I've never heard him say that, because he's such a genius.
01:16:03.000I mean, he was a Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the H-mom.
01:16:07.000And so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses.
01:17:14.000And he's also implicated in these sort of MJ-12 documents, which I don't necessarily want to mush in with Brown.
01:17:20.000It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material, like limited hangout lens.
01:17:25.000Gordon Gray is this very interesting character.
01:17:27.000The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill Conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world.
01:17:37.000Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people.
01:17:43.000At the same time, they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers, and there's video of him.
01:18:32.000And you have a 125-page report for the Montgolfier project.
01:18:37.000And when Brown comes back to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs...
01:18:48.000He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the H-bomb.
01:18:51.000He's talking to this guy, Wilbert Smith, who's this magnetics expert in Canada about their experimentations with UFOs.
01:18:59.000And so he's the guy that picks up, and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time.
01:19:05.000And he's the guy who picks up Brown, where it's like, "Okay, we've got to take this seriously because you've got it to work in a vacuum." The idea that they've kept all the I don't think it is.
01:19:23.000But from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects, that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades.
01:19:39.000But he had something, Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called, it was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect.
01:19:50.000So these are two very different things.
01:19:52.000One is coupling, again, electromagnetism and gravity somehow, creating some gravity shielding or whatever.
01:19:59.000And then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos, which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have, The copper wire is the positive electrode.
01:20:16.000The tinfoil is the negative electrode.
01:20:19.000The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating...
01:20:27.000So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravitic thing.
01:20:33.000It wears the mantle of being electrogravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that Well, what about material science?
01:20:44.000Like, what about the actual structure itself?
01:20:47.000You know, because this is where it gets really weird, right?
01:21:08.000It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winter Haven proposal in 1954 where he's describing these electrogravitic effects because it's a high-K dielectric.
01:21:16.000It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.
01:21:19.000But it also shows up, there's actually an interview with Lewis Witten, who's the father of Ed Witten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wein says is the Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on your show.
01:21:29.000Lewis Witten says there's a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting.
01:22:56.000Right, so the bismuth thing, when you're talking about the way this stuff is layered, that's where it gets really weird, right?
01:23:03.000That's where it's layered, thinner than, you know, it's like micron layered, like thinner than human hair, as I think the Hal put off quote on this.
01:23:11.000And I don't know the provenance on that.
01:23:13.000And I don't know, you know, per games being played in this space.
01:23:17.000I don't know if that actually came from the Roswell crash.
01:23:20.000If it didn't come from the Roswell crash, like, let's imagine, is it possible to make that stuff today?
01:25:06.000So now we're not dealing with hidden science.
01:25:08.000We're not dealing with top secret, compartmentalized, like, you know, need-to-know, everything's pushed away into Skunk Works and wherever the fuck it's done.
01:25:17.000You're talking about something that's not from here.
01:25:20.000Well, it's interesting you say back engineering.
01:25:22.000In 1949, there is a contract that anybody can look up.
01:25:26.000I put it on the doc, Jamie, between Wright Airfield at the time and Battelle Memorial Institute.
01:25:36.000And you have, shout out Columbus, Ohio.
01:25:53.000And so if you have, you know, Army Intelligence Officer, you know, Jesse Marcel, says that he picks up the crash material.
01:26:02.000And he says that it was like this shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind of, you know, mess with it and it would go back into its original form, right?
01:26:10.000It was like this kind of like tinfoil-y like thing.
01:26:13.000And so Nitinol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s.
01:26:17.000That was when it was actually fully published.
01:26:19.000But you have this contract between Wright Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute where you have Nitinol as one of the metals that they're testing.
01:26:29.000Not only that, in 2012, they used the Freedom of Information Act to figure out that a guy named Elroy John Senter, E.J. Senter, was one of the co-authors of that paper.
01:26:42.000Elroy John Center died, I think, in 1991.
01:26:47.000Before that, he had told two MUFON UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and Irene Scott, and they presented this at MUFON in Ohio in 1992.
01:26:56.000They said this guy was this metallurgist.
01:27:47.000Not only is there a record that the Roswell crash was brought to right, but that it was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed and that Truman met them there.
01:28:34.000I mean, that guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned.
01:28:38.000I mean, he's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ICE stuff.
01:28:47.000There's a lot of stuff that I think is allowed to go on, but I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, You think they're going to tell the guy who is the host of The Apprentice?
01:29:05.000I don't think they tell him because I think he's only in there for four years.
01:30:44.000And he was saying that in that interview and I remember thinking like wow that is wild.
01:30:49.000To hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this incredibly dense complex of corporations and defense contractors and there's insane amounts of money involved and these guys want to go to war.
01:31:07.000And he was saying that in that interview.
01:35:19.000Now, being as deep as I am in UFO research, we're like...
01:35:26.000There's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and Nukes, and it's like 600 pages.
01:35:31.000And it is 167 Q cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see Tic Tacs, or saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites, often disarming the nukes.
01:36:41.000It shuts down the power at the airport, and the plane can't land, and then it goes around in a circle, and there are people on the flight who have been interviewed.
01:37:03.000So there are all these declassified documents.
01:37:05.000In 1949, there was an emergency meeting.
01:37:08.000Declassified Air Force document that is verified between Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Army Counterintelligence, Army CIC, FBI.
01:37:17.000Office of Naval Intelligence, all these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the US.
01:37:25.000In 1952, there's a Look Magazine article where Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, who's kind of marginalized pre-Blue Book really taking off with Jalen Hynek, who I think was...
01:37:37.000Yeah, and he's claimed to have, like, gotten better and kind of be, you know, like, he admitted his part in the cover-up, but then I think he kept going on with some fuckery.
01:38:18.000And when we, you know, it's like a node lights up, like when we engage in super advanced research or something, he talks about ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous.
01:38:30.000So if you don't have that ontology, like, yeah, me saying like these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit, like in the desert, like, you know, getting stuff to show up, you're gonna be like, that's a fucking Mylar balloon.
01:38:43.000But because if you have that, if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, I do think they can get stuff to show up what they're getting to show up.
01:39:59.000I don't think Skywatcher would say that that's definitely, you know, endorse that as their thing because they kind of black box it, but that could be.
01:42:04.000You're like, I know there's some stuff, and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me, and you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit, and then you'll track it.
01:42:14.000Well, in the Age of Disclosure, one of the things they go into is that if these programs have been running, and if they have been back-engineering There's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds.
01:42:32.000So anybody who did that is going to jail.
01:42:35.000So what they're calling for is mass amnesty.
01:42:38.000To say, hey, we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program.
01:42:44.000Otherwise, we're never going to learn anything.
01:42:45.000And then there's the problem with corporations.
01:42:49.000So if you give this to Lockheed Martin, what does General Electric think about that?
01:42:54.000Well, hey, you motherfuckers, how come you didn't clue us?
01:43:36.000But even the all-domain anomalies resolution office, which is like the authoritative office that is, I think, the modern blue book that's, you know, basically saying, don't look here, like, this is all bullshit or whatever.
01:43:49.000He has all these, like, atomic connections.
01:43:51.000He worked at Oak Ridge, for God's sake.
01:43:54.000The guy that formed Arrow, And my good friend UAP Gerb, who has an amazing channel, he's a super deep UFO researcher, showed that it was on his resume, and then he recommends that Arrow form.
01:44:22.000It's like a total conflict of interest.
01:45:08.000The nature of reality, you're going to spend $22 million on.
01:45:12.000So it's funny how the whole conversation is on this, like, clearly this thing to, like, get more civilian eyes on the issue, maybe see what they can figure out or whatever.
01:45:21.000The core program, if there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core program— It's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th, 2001, where he said $2 trillion was missing from the Pentagon's budget.
01:45:38.000It's shit like that or this woman named Catherine Austin Fitz who was just on Tucker Carlson who is at housing and urban development under George Bush 41 where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget.
01:47:35.000He's written a bunch of articles about the black budget back then.
01:47:39.000He was talking about a guy named Steve Douglas who, through monitoring the communications, he heard different pilots talking about What probably is the TR-3 Black Manta.
01:47:52.000And then it says he's got a picture of it.
01:48:05.000Then it goes into talking more and more about how he did this.
01:48:09.000and he says he's got files of them talking about all sorts of different planes at night that you were mentioning the Mach 6 R when I was like...
01:50:04.000Curtis LeMay, for the RAND Corporation, for all sorts of head honchos when it comes to American military.
01:50:12.000In 1967, Guidance Technologies shuts down with no explanation.
01:50:17.000They say, you know, our results all failed.
01:50:20.000But after a series of these high-level meetings, that was at the end of 1967.
01:50:25.000Three months later, at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called Electro-Aerodynamics and Supersonic Flow, or In-Supersonic Flow, and it is basically paying homage to electro-hydrodynamics and Townsend Brown's work.
01:50:40.000It is exactly, part and parcel, Townsend Brown's work.
01:50:46.000They then do a press release at the time.
01:50:49.000They retract the press release because they are embarrassed.
01:50:51.000Then later, Bill Scott at Aviation Week in, I think, 1992 says, The B-2 surfs its own wave using the Byfield-Brown effect.
01:51:00.000There's a guy who's known as the Doyen of British aviation journalism.
01:51:07.000And he, in Air International magazine, is doing a survey-level overview of all aero engine tech since World War II.
01:51:15.000And he says, I'm familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend Brown's work.
01:51:22.000But I don't want to end up in the Tower of London.
01:51:25.000So I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charged positive to millions of volts charged negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B-2.
01:53:05.000The electric fields somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the frame hits the air.
01:53:11.000And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade.
01:53:16.000Even, you know, conventional AI will tell you that it will do as far as being helped.
01:53:20.000Gun to head, how far do you think they've gotten this stuff?
01:53:24.000Man, I mean, this stuff was being, this was like the 80s, and they were probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s.
01:53:30.000So, definitely way farther than that, you know?
01:53:34.000So, do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about, that we see on the desk right there, the sport model, do you think that that was ours?
01:53:44.000That feels really hard for me to say in good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled.
01:53:55.000element 113 or 115 rather and this generator that nobody understands.
01:54:00.000Yeah, I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico Everybody wants the anti-gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti-gravity.
01:55:01.000And so at the time that the government's kind of unraveling and we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever, and you get these secret science lineages.
01:55:10.000And then our apertures, people are waking up to greater realities.
01:55:14.000The fact that the pandemic could even happen is sort of so crazy.
01:55:19.000And then it makes you question, what about the Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine, and all these things?
01:55:23.000I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time, and it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti-gravity just, you know, accounts for the UFOs and the aliens.
01:57:17.000Lazar says there are two different gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called The Structure of Space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation.
01:57:26.000By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that Skunk Works formed, which I think is very interesting.
01:57:32.000And he says in Structure of Space, there are two forms of gravity.
01:57:36.000He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills.
01:57:43.000He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons, and so you get this weak positive charge for all matter that creates a gravity well, like this inward pull, but in fact it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model.
01:58:00.000And again, I would not over-index on his theory.
01:58:03.000I think there's tons of proof that he just...
01:58:09.000Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories.
01:58:11.000Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics.
01:58:15.000Hal Putoff's probably the top tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff.
01:58:19.000Sunny White, you know, other people like that.
01:58:21.000But yeah, it is interesting that both of these guys had two versions of gravity.
02:01:23.000Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing?
02:01:36.000Lazar will admit that he's like, I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake and bullshit, and I only am relaying what I saw with regards to the craft, and I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value.
02:01:48.000So there's Project Galileo, there's Looking Glass, you know, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky and I think worthy of engagement with like all these weird limited hangouts are.
02:02:00.000Do any of these people that supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities or interdimensional or whatever they are, do any of these people recall a conversation where they warn us about AI?
02:02:38.000Maybe biological limitations need to be traversed.
02:02:42.000And the best way to traverse them is to eliminate biology.
02:02:45.000we are now experimenting with computational biology.
02:02:49.000You can use things like this neuroscientist, Carl Friston, the free energy prince.
02:02:53.000There's this company called Cortical Labs, and I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these microelectrode plate arrays, and they program cultured rat neurons to do basic computational tasks.
02:03:07.000And so that's the super base level, right?
02:03:10.000We're just creating the transistors for this new model of computation.
02:04:38.000You get your best scientist and you compartmentalize it.
02:04:42.000You do it over decades because you really can't open it up.
02:04:45.000And this is one of the things that Lazar said that he had deep frustration about while working at S4 is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized.
02:04:54.000You need to be able to open it up to collaboration.
02:05:09.000That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure, where if you have Cold War era secrecy, it's like if we're ahead of Russia and China, clamp down.
02:05:21.000But then all of a sudden, maybe they play catch-up.
02:05:23.000And then all of a sudden, maybe you have this...
02:05:27.000Archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid foyer requests where you have restricted data covering you know Material found by a specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever And you're you're at the top of the national security pie and you're like, holy Like, we need to update this stuff.
02:05:49.000So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels.
02:05:53.000We need some disclosure on these things.
02:07:43.000And so if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern enlightenment history is a detour from the past.
02:07:52.000If you look at every culture, whether it's Iamblichus, or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St. Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament.
02:09:06.000I was in Laurel Canyon where I used to live and I saw a thing that It looked like no visible propulsion, this sort of low humming noise or whatever.
02:09:19.000It was maybe 50, 60, 70 feet high, like right above the treetops.
02:09:25.000The trippiest part of the experience and why it's just so weird is I was with – I was like, actually, I kind of am interested in that topic.
02:09:43.000And then I think I joked back, I was like, I kind of want to meet an alien.
02:10:33.000I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast, I described it, and I was sent a video, and for all I know this video is fucking fake, by the way, but it was the thing that looked most like what I saw.
02:10:43.000Because it doesn't match up with the saucer triangle thing.
02:12:04.000Similar to, like, the typical, like, orb that, you know, a lot of people sort of describe, like the Mosul orb or whatever, you know, a lot of these sightings.
02:12:12.000And he looks at me and I go, like, what the fuck is that?
02:12:16.000He goes, dude, I think that's like some secret black Lockheed tech or whatever.
02:14:01.000And so it ends up in these ontological loops where like, yeah, some rationalist skeptic can be like, you're lying.
02:14:08.000It ends up in this not even wrong category of like, I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm.
02:14:16.000But neither the skeptic, we just live in the age of disenchantment where you say, don't trust your eyes.
02:14:21.000And that's as much faith-based dogma as what I'm saying.
02:14:51.000I mean, if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognize an emerging civilization that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be like, hey, fuckers, slow down.
02:15:19.000And I love going and seeing how UFO themed, like in preparation for this, I've had a couple of friends be like, I'm like, no, he's just frustrated with disclosure.
02:16:04.000This was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with and I wish I could give you a definitive these things are definitely dead aliens.
02:16:14.000I cannot say that definitively at all.
02:16:16.000I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically Organisms.
02:16:24.000If they're not, they're incredible works of art.
02:16:26.000If they're not, they're the most sophisticated hoax ever that basically tricked forensic experts from...
02:16:48.000who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner in Denver.
02:16:51.000The equivalent of McDowell is a guy named Dr. David Ruiz.
02:16:54.000So he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association and the head of the Mexican Navy forensics.
02:17:04.000I think we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves.
02:17:09.000Because a lot of people are like, what the fuck are they blabbing about?
02:17:12.000There are these very small mummified looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a similar kind of thing to a human being, but varies enough that you know it's not us.
02:17:30.000And it has more ribs, it has more spinal columns, or more discs.
02:18:21.000The J-types are probably, they were most popularized in this Mexican Congress where these things were outed in September of 2023, where they look like almost close encounters.
02:18:30.000Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see that Peru's Congress, like right there.
02:18:34.000Like, that thing looks like this, like, jokey, like, Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
02:20:42.000They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century.
02:20:48.000If this is art, if someone made this, You need to tell me how much this costs.
02:20:57.000I need to put it on my table because you're a genius.
02:21:00.000If you've made that and you tricked everybody into thinking that that's real, you're a goddamn genius and you shouldn't just be hoaxing people.
02:21:06.000So then the alternative is that's real.
02:21:11.000Joe, fortunately and unfortunately, fortunately for you, maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these Waqueros, these gravediggers, are selling some of these things on the black market.
02:23:09.000I don't think he's actually a geneticist.
02:23:11.000And his belief is like, he was like, this is, you know, there's 30% of this is like unknown DNA that we don't know.
02:23:18.000And then in the 70%, you have mitochondrial DNA from Myanmar.
02:23:29.000And you also have bonobos and chimpanzee DNA, which means it was an ancient primate that held this DNA because it was before they phylogenetically split off.
02:23:40.000So what he's saying, and this is crazy, is he was saying that like a...
02:23:52.000And because there are some theories that they actually, you know, East Africa is not like the first hominid species.
02:24:19.000It's like saying that, you know, the pangolin theory is better than the, you know, the Wuhan lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor.
02:24:34.000the Flora's people, the Hobbit people.
02:24:41.000carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago, which would actually be Incan.
02:24:49.000And then all the way down to 1800 years ago, which is the Nazca people.
02:24:55.000That's what's fascinating because there's this mystery of the Hobbit people, right?
02:25:01.000Where they didn't really think that that was – there's a lot of – And then they realize, like, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain, just like Denisovan, just like Neanderthal.
02:25:21.000There's a thing called the Orang Pendek.
02:25:47.000So if they're alive, Because there's been things like the coelacanth, which they thought were extinct for millions of years, and then they caught one.
02:25:58.000And they're like, oh my god, this is a prehistoric fish and it's still alive.
02:26:01.000And now they know that there's a population of them.
02:28:10.000And it is important to note that there were skull elongation rituals going on as early as the Paracas people, which were pre the Nazca people.
02:29:49.000And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanges and one came back male, one came back female.
02:29:57.000But I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experts?
02:30:00.000So it's this weird, it's just the DNA stuff, you don't get a good signal.
02:30:04.000And the reason that nobody even cared, this is the most interesting paleoarchaeological case today, in my opinion.
02:30:11.000The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023, when these were popularized by Jaime Masson, where he rolled out this J-type Josefina, the one that looked like kind of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, in front of the Mexican Congress.
02:30:23.000This guy named Manuel Caceras, who is an artist who is making renditions of the things with like wood and sticks and stuff glued together.
02:30:33.000He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada.
02:30:39.000And there were Reuters pick this up saying this is all fake because of these fake.
02:30:44.000And I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with where he goes, this was art.
02:31:23.000And if you find, if there is phenotypic inheritance where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then at what point do you go, this is the, how can you hoax that?
02:31:55.000But he is like, I was like, Jose, like if you showed this CAT scan image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor, they didn't know anything about the case, would they say it had three fingers?
02:32:35.000Most of the things that have lived, we don't have fossils of.
02:32:39.000Which is, if this thing was a small percentage or small population, small percentage of the living humans, and some of them are like that, and they just died off like 500 years ago, a thousand years ago.
02:32:52.000And these ones got saved because they were around a diatomaceous earth mine, which preserved their organs and their whole body.
02:32:58.000Just from an anthropology perspective, that should be the most fascinating thing.
02:33:01.000But it's got the stink of a hoax on it, so people don't want to go and study it.
02:33:05.000Yeah, part of what I almost wanna do is like a nature of reality fund that I tie to the show, And it's like so important for humanity, right?
02:35:47.000He has a paper called the Silurian Hypothesis, which is you have cataclysms like the Younger Dryas Impact, you know, or other things like that.
02:35:55.000You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, you know, the asteroid impact killed all the dinosaurs or whatever.
02:36:02.000Break off civilization, just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding.
02:36:20.000So imagine if there's some break-off civilization where they lived, I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago, but they're different than us.