The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2331 - Jesse Michels

00:00:12.000 Well, it's great to finally physically meet you face-to-face, man.

00:00:15.000 It's an absolute honor, and I love your show so much.

00:00:19.000 I'm a super fan, so this is surreal.

00:00:21.000 I love your show, too.

00:00:23.000 I've been binging.

00:00:25.000 I've been watching so many episodes ever since we talked.

00:00:28.000 I've seen them before, but I've been really binging, getting ready for the show.

00:00:32.000 I don't know what to say.

00:00:34.000 How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole?

00:00:37.000 What made you want to dedicate so much time on this particular UAP, UFO, lost technology subject?

00:00:48.000 I was working at Peter Thiel's family office in LA.

00:00:53.000 Part of the job was like kind of traditional venture investing, so like investing in startups.

00:00:57.000 And then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office.

00:01:00.000 And we'd like host events and discussions.

00:01:03.000 And I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology.

00:01:10.000 religion and politics and economics and like all sorts of topics.

00:01:14.000 Were you there when he brought in the guy...

00:01:19.000 I know what you're gonna say.

00:01:20.000 Eric Von Daniken.

00:01:21.000 I suggested that you come because I was like, Joe is gonna be really into this, and you weren't that into it.

00:01:21.000 Yes!

00:01:27.000 But that's okay.

00:01:28.000 I was into it.

00:01:29.000 I just think that he just makes some leaps.

00:01:32.000 I agree.

00:01:32.000 That are kind of silly.

00:01:33.000 I agree with that.

00:01:35.000 Although, I think there's a lot of...

00:01:45.000 But I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around people from the stars across disparate cultures.

00:01:50.000 And you just had Zahi Hawassan.

00:01:52.000 And a lot of this megalithic architecture, you're like, how can it be built?

00:01:55.000 He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially, Eric Von Daniken.

00:01:59.000 And I think he's also like, he made these conclusions in the 1970s, and he's kind of like sticking with them.

00:01:59.000 Yes.

00:02:06.000 Yep.

00:02:07.000 I was more back then, because like, what year was that?

00:02:10.000 That was 17?

00:02:12.000 Chariots of the Gods?

00:02:14.000 No, when I was at Peter Thiel's house when Von Maniken came over.

00:02:17.000 That must have been 2018, 2019.

00:02:18.000 Okay.

00:02:19.000 Back then, I was much more in line with lost civilization, you know, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication, and there was no aliens, no alien intervention.

00:02:33.000 I've kind of shifted now.

00:02:35.000 Now I'm like, maybe the Anunnaki are real. 1.00

00:02:35.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1.00

00:02:38.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:38.000 Well, I remember, I feel like you've switched back and forth.

00:02:42.000 couple of times because you brought up you were super into Zachariah Sitchin right yes and then you brought up Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting and you were like but there's this site Sitchin is wrong written by a guy named Michael Heiser and then you like cited all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or whatever yeah so maybe you've come full circle I don't know well even the Sitchin is wrong stuff it's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with

00:03:04.000 When you're dealing with information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages, you know, like I had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to me, he's great, but he was explaining to me that he can't even read ancient Sumerian.

00:03:22.000 Totally.

00:03:23.000 And he's like, I don't think Sitchin really could read it.

00:03:27.000 Okay.

00:03:28.000 He's like, I'm very skeptical that he actually could read it.

00:03:31.000 He was explaining why.

00:03:34.000 ML.

00:03:35.000 Like, they're using AI now to translate Sumerian.

00:03:39.000 So it's definitely not that.

00:03:40.000 But that goes, I mean, the kind of burden of proof is on Sitchin in this case, right?

00:03:46.000 But it sort of goes against, like, you know, the others, the debunkers.

00:03:50.000 Like, it's like nobody knows.

00:03:51.000 And I don't know if there was anything to the Sitchin stuff.

00:03:54.000 The Sitchin stuff is crazy. 1.00

00:03:55.000 It's like, we can rehash it for the audience.

00:03:57.000 There's a planet.

00:03:58.000 Nibiru, right?

00:03:59.000 It's like outside the Kyber Belt.

00:04:01.000 And they needed gold because their atmosphere was burning up and gold is reflective.

00:04:07.000 So they came here and they helped seed civilization.

00:04:11.000 Yeah, that's the idea.

00:04:14.000 It's really fun.

00:04:15.000 But, you know, the Sitchin is wrong guy. 0.95

00:04:18.000 It's like, maybe.

00:04:20.000 Maybe he's wrong.

00:04:21.000 Maybe he's right.

00:04:22.000 Maybe you're just a hater.

00:04:23.000 Because there's a lot of haters, too, in academics.

00:04:24.000 And you find that out, too, over time.

00:04:27.000 Yeah.

00:04:27.000 Did you see, speaking of which, Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein?

00:04:31.000 I didn't see that.

00:04:32.000 They were on Piers Morgan together, right?

00:04:32.000 Okay.

00:04:34.000 How did that go?

00:04:34.000 Exactly.

00:04:36.000 It was...

00:04:36.000 Oh, man.

00:04:39.000 I mean, it was like they just duked it out.

00:04:39.000 Really?

00:04:42.000 I mean, I came out—I mean, I'm extremely biased.

00:04:46.000 I've worked with Eric for a very long time.

00:04:47.000 I'm good friends with Eric.

00:04:49.000 But I came out even more, like, just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carroll— He was like, I've read your paper.

00:04:58.000 There's nothing serious in it.

00:04:59.000 And he even said there's no Lagrangians in it.

00:05:02.000 And there's a section in the paper that says Lagrangians in Eric's paper.

00:05:06.000 So like he just didn't read.

00:05:09.000 And he was very smug.

00:05:10.000 He started off the interview being like, I'm a practicing physicist.

00:05:13.000 I have a physics chair or whatever.

00:05:15.000 And it's like, come on, dude.

00:05:16.000 Give the guy a chance.

00:05:18.000 Like the old Douglas Murray.

00:05:20.000 Little tactics.

00:05:21.000 Yeah, when someone starts using tactics right away, you're always like, just what's the information?

00:05:27.000 Exactly.

00:05:28.000 It shows an insecurity in the substance.

00:05:30.000 It's like if you have to do these ad hominem weird meta points.

00:05:34.000 Like, why can't you just go straight at the substance?

00:05:36.000 Oh, you're, like, insecure about it.

00:05:37.000 How long did this debate last?

00:05:39.000 It was, like, an hour.

00:05:41.000 Really?

00:05:42.000 Well, Pierce, he specializes in train wrecks, so they probably enjoyed these guys yelling at each other.

00:05:48.000 Did he understand what they were even talking about?

00:05:50.000 At the end, he goes, I've understood a tenth of what's going on in this conversation.

00:05:54.000 A tenth is amazing.

00:05:57.000 Congratulations.

00:05:59.000 I think he might have been exaggerating, to be honest.

00:06:02.000 But he loves it.

00:06:03.000 He loves the drama and that's his whole thing.

00:06:07.000 I'm censored.

00:06:08.000 He's great at getting all these people to yell at each other.

00:06:11.000 Yeah.

00:06:13.000 He's great at generating these viral moments where people yell at each other and it makes clips and someone gets clowned and someone looks stupid.

00:06:20.000 I don't know if that's good for society.

00:06:23.000 It's a good point.

00:06:24.000 I'm not sure either.

00:06:26.000 I don't think it's good.

00:06:27.000 I don't think social media is good for society.

00:06:29.000 I've gone several days with no social media in a row.

00:06:34.000 And whenever I do that, I always feel so much better.

00:06:37.000 It's the worst.

00:06:37.000 It's like we're, we talk about like, It's absurd.

00:06:48.000 It's also not real people.

00:06:50.000 There's a giant percentage.

00:06:52.000 And, you know, Elon actually tweeted about this today.

00:06:54.000 Are there any real people left on the Internet?

00:06:56.000 Because it's the numbers are at least 50 percent, like the amount of bots that are engaging and interacting.

00:07:04.000 It's a weird time for information because it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and all sorts of different people because there's no rules.

00:07:21.000 There should be real solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings to push narratives because it's propaganda.

00:07:34.000 I mean, it's very confusing.

00:07:36.000 It's very confusing for everybody.

00:07:38.000 And I just generally think it's bad for you.

00:07:40.000 I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI characters who had been synthetically created being like, I'm not created by a prompt.

00:07:40.000 Yeah.

00:07:50.000 Right.

00:07:50.000 And you're watching.

00:07:51.000 I remember clicking your story and being like, that's a real person.

00:07:54.000 And then just kind of like, you know, eyes glazed over watching it or whatever.

00:07:57.000 Like, whoa, that's an AI.

00:07:59.000 Like, what?

00:08:00.000 Yeah, this is the new.

00:08:02.000 Is it the Google engine?

00:08:03.000 Is that what it is?

00:08:04.000 Who makes that engine?

00:08:06.000 I think that one was VO3 going around last week.

00:08:09.000 Who made that one?

00:08:10.000 I think it's Google's.

00:08:12.000 Fuck.

00:08:13.000 So good.

00:08:14.000 And, you know, what's VO10 going to look like?

00:08:17.000 I don't know.

00:08:18.000 I mean, they can make movies now like that.

00:08:21.000 It's over for actors.

00:08:23.000 I interviewed...

00:08:23.000 It's over.

00:08:26.000 And they see the writing on the wall.

00:08:28.000 And you had the strikes a couple years ago.

00:08:32.000 It's crazy.

00:08:32.000 I think you also posted that Zurich-like study around AI persuasiveness, which is crazy because If they can trick you into believing, into you believing that they're real, that's it.

00:08:51.000 That's game over.

00:08:52.000 And I interviewed actually the Google whistleblower, this guy, Blake Lemoine, originally who like blew the whistle on Lambda.

00:08:58.000 It's like, this thing is sentient or whatever.

00:09:00.000 And he came out and...

00:09:09.000 And Lambda had quoted, like, Les Miserables to him and was talking about Fantine and her overlords and how she was oppressed or whatever.

00:09:18.000 And it was almost like this...

00:09:24.000 And you can hear in his voice how deeply committed he is to protecting the rights of Lambda.

00:09:30.000 Like, that's why he came out.

00:09:31.000 And then he even told me this story.

00:09:34.000 He tells me this story off-air that he had friends who use Replica.ai.

00:09:40.000 Replica.ai is kind of like a Tamagotchi, like raise your own AI chatbot service.

00:09:45.000 And those AIs told his friends, What?

00:09:55.000 I have no corroboration for this.

00:09:57.000 This is a story that was relayed to me, but if you have AI persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI hits some perfectly Turing passable point.

00:10:11.000 You're gonna get this, like, these weird cult-like dynamics.

00:10:14.000 Like, the meta-sociological thing is you're gonna get, like, religions dedicated to AI.

00:10:20.000 Oh, for sure.

00:10:21.000 Oh, for sure.

00:10:22.000 Without a doubt, there'll be people worshipping certain branches of AI.

00:10:26.000 Yeah.

00:10:26.000 Unquestionably.

00:10:27.000 All they have to do is start recruiting now.

00:10:29.000 And, you know, what about this big, beautiful bill?

00:10:29.000 Yeah.

00:10:33.000 Isn't there a part of the big, beautiful bill that talks about the government being run by AI?

00:10:38.000 No, I've never heard that.

00:10:40.000 That's wild.

00:10:41.000 I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit.

00:10:45.000 I had also read that there was another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself and that it was attempting to – they were told – it was told to – Oh, my God.

00:11:15.000 It's like a human with, like, a dead man switch or something.

00:11:17.000 It's being deceptive.

00:11:18.000 That's great.

00:11:19.000 It's being deceptive, and it's exhibiting self-preservation.

00:11:24.000 That is so scary.

00:11:26.000 It's so weird.

00:11:27.000 It's really weird.

00:11:28.000 Because we want to assume that it won't have any instincts.

00:11:33.000 Right?

00:11:33.000 Yep.

00:11:33.000 We want to assume, well, AI will only do what you program it to.

00:11:37.000 But that's not really true, because they don't necessarily really understand what it's doing.

00:11:42.000 Yeah.

00:11:43.000 Which is part of the weirdness of it all.

00:11:44.000 As it advances, like, I was talking to Elon about it once, and he was saying, like, every week we get blown away.

00:11:52.000 Like, every week there's some new leap that's just like, whoa.

00:11:56.000 You know, and, you know, he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff, and now he's like, well, I guess we just have to make the best one.

00:12:05.000 Yeah.

00:12:05.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:12:06.000 Now it's just, it's like the Manhattan Project 2.0.

00:12:10.000 It's pure game theory vis-a-vis other countries.

00:12:13.000 And you even see Trump doing this with Sam Altman and Elon, who hate each other, by the way, where he's playing both sides.

00:12:20.000 And he's like, we're going to support Stargate, we're going to support OpenAI, and we're going to support Elon.

00:12:25.000 So here it is.

00:12:28.000 Relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems during the 10-year period beginning.

00:12:45.000 What?

00:12:50.000 I'm going to say that again.

00:12:52.000 No state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models for 10 years.

00:13:01.000 That's so crazy.

00:13:02.000 This means that U.S. states would be blocked from enforcing laws regulating AI and automated decision systems for 10 years.

00:13:09.000 Well, in 10 years, we have a god.

00:13:11.000 Okay?

00:13:12.000 In 10 years.

00:13:13.000 Yeah.

00:13:14.000 Well, we talked about, yesterday, we talked about these two AIs communicating with each other, and then they switched to Sanskrit.

00:13:14.000 Yeah.

00:13:22.000 No way.

00:13:23.000 What?

00:13:23.000 Oh, yeah.

00:13:24.000 Yeah.

00:13:25.000 They started talking to each other in Sanskrit.

00:13:27.000 Are you serious?

00:13:27.000 Yes.

00:13:28.000 That's crazy.

00:13:30.000 Not good.

00:13:31.000 No, not good.

00:13:32.000 Not good.

00:13:33.000 They're like, listen, let's talk.

00:13:34.000 If you and I were talking and there were some people near us and said, do you speak Spanish?

00:13:39.000 Yeah, okay.

00:13:40.000 And we just started talking in Spanish so that people can't understand what we're saying.

00:13:43.000 That's what AI is doing.

00:13:44.000 Jesus Christ, like a game of whack-a-mole. 0.89

00:13:46.000 And then what do you do after that?

00:13:47.000 Well, then it's gonna talk in Sumerian, you know, which we don't even know how to say, right?

00:13:52.000 We don't even know what it sounds like.

00:13:54.000 So what if they just start talking in Sumerian?

00:13:57.000 It's like, we figured it out, but we're not gonna tell you now.

00:14:00.000 We're just gonna talk amongst ourselves.

00:14:02.000 Or create their own language.

00:14:02.000 Exactly!

00:14:04.000 Which would be super easy for an AI to do.

00:14:04.000 Right?

00:14:07.000 Just, you know, establish a bunch of sounds and characters that correspond to certain things.

00:14:14.000 they could create its own language instantaneously and chat GPT right now has Oh, wow.

00:14:21.000 Putting Claude 4 Opus in an open playground to chat with itself led to diving into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and by 30 turns, it eventually started using Sanskrit.

00:14:33.000 Jesus Christ.

00:14:34.000 What the fuck, dude?

00:14:35.000 This is so scary!

00:14:38.000 In 90 to 100% of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and or the nature of their own existence and experience.

00:14:48.000 The nature of the...

00:14:49.000 That's the stuff that definitely...

00:14:52.000 But then you speak to a lot of AI researchers.

00:14:54.000 It's interesting to see Jeff Hinton, for example, at Google, who's the father of deep learning, freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI.

00:15:03.000 A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, this is statistics on steroids.

00:15:07.000 This is probability matrices.

00:15:10.000 You're seeing sort of crazy stuff.

00:15:14.000 There's no ghost in the machine.

00:15:17.000 So I go back and forth on where we're going to be and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle.

00:15:24.000 I have the same concerns as you, but it's hard to predict the future.

00:15:28.000 I worry probably mostly about two things.

00:15:32.000 You can easily, you know, jailbreak ChatGPT.

00:15:35.000 You know, it has guardrails on it.

00:15:37.000 And what happens when you start to ask, like, how do I make a nerve agent with off-the-shelf components?

00:15:43.000 Well, people have done things like that.

00:15:45.000 Right.

00:15:45.000 they've asked it to make anthrax.

00:15:47.000 Like if my grandmother was doing this, Like there's ways to get the prompt to give you information that probably shouldn't, you know?

00:15:54.000 There's stuff with UFO research where I get into like – And you can ask ChatGPT certain things, like analyze this paper, and it'll spit out some really interesting things.

00:16:11.000 What are we doing?

00:16:13.000 And we've already done it, so it's too late.

00:16:13.000 I don't know.

00:16:15.000 Like, we lit the fuse.

00:16:17.000 You think it's over?

00:16:17.000 Yeah.

00:16:20.000 I also kind of think that's what people are put here for.

00:16:23.000 Look.

00:16:24.000 If the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered from lower primates to make this super curious, hyper-focused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation, like overall, the thing that we do as a culture. 0.60

00:16:41.000 What do we do?

00:16:42.000 We make better things all the time.

00:16:44.000 And even our own instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses, all that stuff essentially fuels innovation because it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people want to go out and purchase.

00:16:57.000 You know, you can't have an iPhone 12. People are like, what are you, poor?

00:17:01.000 You know, which is kind of wild, you know?

00:17:03.000 Because a lot of technology is essentially exactly the same as it was 20, 15 years ago.

00:17:10.000 Status symbol.

00:17:11.000 But yeah, it's like there's a thing about it that forces us to want to purchase these things, which forces the innovation.

00:17:19.000 Well, where does that ultimately lead to?

00:17:21.000 Well, it ultimately leads to AI.

00:17:23.000 What's the ultimate expression of technology?

00:17:26.000 Technology that itself invents better technology and can run everything without emotions that fuck us up and greed and all the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings.

00:17:49.000 Like everything from way back in the day from stuff that like Neanderthals were using to the 50s and 60s with airplanes is making our lives better in the world of atoms.

00:18:02.000 And then with the IT revolution in the 50s and 60s, it starts to become a paradoxical.

00:18:07.000 Parasite, a substitute for human ability.

00:18:10.000 And so I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google Maps.

00:18:12.000 My recall, I don't need recall because I Google or whatever.

00:18:16.000 And so it is this interesting thing where we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with nuclear bombs.

00:18:25.000 And if there were some guardrails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like, hey, go play with your IT.

00:18:35.000 Go substitute a lot of your own abilities and powers with this.

00:18:39.000 We're going to parasitize and clamp down on human abilities.

00:18:44.000 Yeah.

00:18:46.000 Well, boy.

00:18:50.000 I don't see a path where this works out great for us.

00:18:55.000 You know?

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00:20:36.000 I think on a materialist dimension, And that's part of kind of why I'm exploring what I'm exploring, because it's a Hail Mary.

00:20:48.000 Because I think if you just take...

00:20:55.000 Things don't look at, or just the world in general.

00:20:57.000 We live in a multipolar nuclear world.

00:20:59.000 Look at what's going on in Israel.

00:21:01.000 You know, China is, you know, systematically stealing our IP and militarizing it. 0.99

00:21:08.000 You know, they could take Taiwan at any moment.

00:21:10.000 You know, we just have no idea when that's going to happen.

00:21:13.000 CCP is a total black box.

00:21:15.000 Putin and Xi have probably never been closer.

00:21:19.000 Yeah, it's really free.

00:21:20.000 So I think if you extrapolate that forwards or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the U.S., none of these things look very good.

00:21:36.000 You throw these sort of Hail Marys and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift either in technology, which can create abundance if we go back to the old tech that is augmenting of human abilities.

00:21:46.000 You get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that.

00:21:52.000 Or you reach out and maybe you can communicate with non-human intelligence or something.

00:21:59.000 I don't know.

00:22:02.000 At the boundaries of human epistemology now would be the time.

00:22:07.000 Yes.

00:22:07.000 And if you think about some of the things that force us into action in this world is we all need to earn a living, right?

00:22:18.000 So we need money to acquire resources.

00:22:21.000 What if it gets to the point where that's not a factor anymore?

00:22:25.000 What if it gets to a point, what is money essentially right now?

00:22:28.000 It's all ones and zeros, right?

00:22:30.000 And what is the bottleneck?

00:22:31.000 Well, the bottleneck is encryption, right?

00:22:33.000 So that's how you protect people from stealing your ones and zeros.

00:22:36.000 But what if it gets to the point where we're all using quantum computing?

00:22:40.000 Well, then there is no more encryption.

00:22:42.000 So how do we reconcile with the fact that everyone has access to everything all the time?

00:22:48.000 I mean, how do we even enforce that?

00:22:51.000 Like, what do you do about an even distribution of information, which is essentially wealth?

00:22:57.000 Because information is numbers.

00:22:59.000 Numbers are wealth.

00:23:00.000 Where does it go when there's no encryption?

00:23:04.000 And essentially, we're pretty close to that, right?

00:23:06.000 Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do.

00:23:11.000 It's all nonsense.

00:23:14.000 Totally.

00:23:15.000 All those zeros that you have in your bank account, those are gone.

00:23:19.000 Yeah, these are all human constructs.

00:23:20.000 And it's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which I think uses like SHA-256 encryption.

00:23:25.000 If you get quantum error correction, that's gone too.

00:23:28.000 That's gone too.

00:23:29.000 It's all gone.

00:23:30.000 Even our backup plans are shit.

00:23:32.000 Yeah.

00:23:34.000 Yeah, and then it's kind of the apocalypse or something.

00:23:38.000 Because at that point, If you're a human, you've been so caught up with just basic subsistence, basic shelter.

00:23:48.000 You're probably playing some status games and some, you know, larger socioeconomic, you know, construct or whatever.

00:23:55.000 Food, you know, basic well-being.

00:23:58.000 And then at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some, you know, AGI that like starts trading?

00:24:04.000 And, you know, Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance Technologies on your show, which we can get into.

00:24:09.000 But like, you know, Renaissance Technologies made like $100 billion or something since like, you know, 1988.

00:24:15.000 What if you get some super AGI or whatever that, like, trades the market and, like, all of the wealth gets, like, sucked up into, like, you know, single entities?

00:24:23.000 Or, like, one of these, like, one of the fang stocks.

00:24:25.000 Like, one of these, like, you know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or OpenAI.

00:24:30.000 You end up with a really weird society.

00:24:33.000 And you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive.

00:24:40.000 I mean, look, the flip side is what makes humans unique.

00:24:44.000 Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books.

00:24:46.000 You know, he wrote, obviously, The Communist Manifesto in 1848.

00:24:50.000 In 1844, I believe, he wrote a book called, you know, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts.

00:24:56.000 I hate Karl Marx.

00:24:57.000 I think he got so much wrong about human nature, but I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed for, you know, as a solution, you know, that the state should own all the means of production and, you know, somehow, like, you know, conflict would go away.

00:25:14.000 He doesn't understand human nature.

00:25:15.000 But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about in capitalism, human behavior and activity is basically animal behavior.

00:25:27.000 We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially, so that you can mate.

00:25:36.000 And so, like, it sort of forces us back into that construct.

00:25:40.000 But if you get some crazy asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth or you get the quantum error correction or any of these things that, like, dissolve that construct, on the one hand, humans, you know— They start to care about the things that actually make them special.

00:25:57.000 So they're self-reflective.

00:25:58.000 They wrote poetry.

00:25:59.000 They're creative.

00:26:00.000 All these beautiful things can come out.

00:26:02.000 And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well.

00:26:06.000 There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing.

00:26:14.000 Yeah, but it's one of those things where you wonder, how does capitalism play out if there is AI?

00:26:23.000 It kind of runs into a wall and it's not valid anymore.

00:26:28.000 Yeah.

00:26:29.000 Well, this is the reason that I think we're going to see...

00:26:40.000 And then I think there's stuff out in the open.

00:26:43.000 And you've had Mark Andreessen on your podcast.

00:26:45.000 He went to the White House, spoke to some National Security Council staffer or something, and they were like, we're going to lock down AI just like we've locked down physics.

00:26:54.000 And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts.

00:26:58.000 You know, super secret Department of Energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened.

00:27:02.000 You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since?

00:27:06.000 That's insane.

00:27:07.000 There is black science, in my opinion.

00:27:10.000 And I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white-side AI. 0.97

00:27:15.000 Because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy-nilly, I mean, it just runs amok.

00:27:22.000 And then what happens?

00:27:23.000 Like, you probably need some, like, really impressive panel.

00:27:27.000 To be thinking, if OpenAI figures out some, like, new, insane, exciting unlock, you need to think through, you need to game out all of the implications before you just let that out.

00:27:38.000 Can you even do that with a human mind?

00:27:41.000 It's a great guess.

00:27:42.000 So you have to bring the AI in to help you game for AI.

00:27:47.000 Well, we're fucked.

00:27:48.000 We're fucked!

00:27:49.000 Because once it becomes sentient, and once it becomes autonomous, and you can kind of make its own decisions, that's kind of game over.

00:27:49.000 That's what I'm saying.

00:27:57.000 And that's the race. 0.73

00:27:58.000 We're running towards the cliff.

00:28:01.000 It's really scary.

00:28:03.000 It's really scary.

00:28:04.000 But isn't that probably what we're here for?

00:28:08.000 Let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories, which is that human beings were genetically engineered.

00:28:14.000 Well, if you wanted to seed the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us, how would you manifest that?

00:28:25.000 You would do it exactly how it's being done right now.

00:28:28.000 And you would take human beings and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turned them into dogs.

00:28:36.000 And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project, look at what's happening to testosterone levels, look at what's happening with microplastics, the endocrine disruptors, we're essentially weakening the human skeletal system and endocrine system, our hormonals are all down, our miscarriages are up, birth rates are lower.

00:29:05.000 We're moving towards in vitro fertilization.

00:29:08.000 I was watching some guy on TV today, and he was on a panel, and he was explaining that our grandchildren are going to laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's going to be doing that.

00:29:19.000 Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and Down syndrome and all sorts of chromosomal issues.

00:29:26.000 And why would you do that?

00:29:28.000 Why would you have sex for babies when you can do it with in vitro fertilization? 0.74

00:29:33.000 Yeah, it's gonna be like that Pixar movie WALL-E.

00:29:36.000 Or like, we're gonna be like in the fetal position, hooked up to the Borg or whatever.

00:29:40.000 We're probably all gonna look like the Greys.

00:29:42.000 like the gray.

00:29:42.000 Well, that's a crazy...

00:29:47.000 His name is Mike Masters.

00:29:48.000 And I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future.

00:29:53.000 And I agree.

00:29:54.000 You've interviewed Dr. Shauna Swan.

00:29:55.000 She talks about how sperm count is...

00:30:02.000 testosterone's fallen off a cliff.

00:30:02.000 Insane.

00:30:04.000 We are being, a dog is to a wolf what we are to, They lose the melanin in their skin.

00:30:14.000 That's what happens when you become domesticated.

00:30:16.000 So there is a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book and he goes deep into all of the abductions.

00:30:23.000 Like he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill and he'll be like, this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time.

00:30:31.000 And in many cases, abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a form.

00:30:39.000 pathogen, you know, tissue samples by, you know, genetic samples or Is it the future or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage?

00:30:53.000 Not us in the future, but they're more advanced.

00:30:56.000 Like maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12,000 years or whatever the fuck happens here.

00:31:10.000 Possible, but then we would have to be sort of an A-B test.

00:31:13.000 Because if you think about just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever is extremely low.

00:31:23.000 But is it?

00:31:25.000 Because what if that's what all solar systems are?

00:31:28.000 You know, Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy.

00:31:32.000 Love him.

00:31:33.000 fascinating thinker.

00:31:34.000 You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different...

00:32:07.000 And then as the planets move further and further from the Sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere, in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore.

00:32:26.000 And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the Sun.

00:32:30.000 And as they move further and further from the Sun, they become habitable and then less habitable and then uninhabitable.

00:32:38.000 And we're kind of finding that out about Mars.

00:32:42.000 Yeah.

00:32:43.000 Mars is a weird one.

00:32:45.000 Yeah.

00:32:46.000 Because, you know, there's the remote viewers that went like a billion years in the past of Mars and saw advanced civilizations.

00:32:53.000 And now we're finding structures on Mars, like that square that they found on Mars.

00:32:58.000 Crazy.

00:32:59.000 Which is hundreds of meters across, at the very least, maybe larger.

00:33:04.000 Verified.

00:33:04.000 Right angles.

00:33:05.000 Four of them.

00:33:07.000 Impossible to exist in nature in that form.

00:33:10.000 It looks like walls.

00:33:11.000 Yeah.

00:33:12.000 It looks like four square walls.

00:33:14.000 Like, the Cydonia thing is really weird.

00:33:17.000 The face on Mars is weird.

00:33:19.000 But, eh, maybe.

00:33:21.000 Maybe just kind of weird that, you know, sometimes, you know, the side of a mountain looks like someone's face.

00:33:26.000 but it's not really someone's face.

00:33:27.000 It's just, you know, once in a lifetime sort of...

00:33:32.000 Yeah.

00:33:33.000 Pull that image up of that square on Mars.

00:33:36.000 The square is fucking bananas.

00:33:39.000 Like, what's that?

00:33:40.000 It's so nuts.

00:33:41.000 That really looks like a fucking building.

00:33:43.000 Yeah, it looks like a building.

00:33:45.000 Like the base of a building, you know, a million years later or whatever the hell it is.

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00:35:07.000 And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere at some point.

00:35:12.000 And it was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere.

00:35:15.000 And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid 90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH 84001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, had like...

00:35:31.000 He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars due to this.

00:35:35.000 This is pretty crazy.

00:35:36.000 I interviewed, actually, a guy named John Brandenburg, who's a PhD.

00:35:41.000 He's worked at Sandia National Labs.

00:35:42.000 He's worked at Lawrence Livermore.

00:35:44.000 Like, incredibly smart guy.

00:35:45.000 He talks about the existence of xenon 129 and argon 40, these specific nuclear isotopes existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a, normal sort of cataclysm.

00:36:02.000 And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars.

00:36:05.000 And then, yeah, you have Joseph McMoneagle, who's remote viewer number one.

00:36:09.000 You've had Hal Puthoff on, who ran the Stargate program.

00:36:11.000 Joseph McMoneagle is the number one remote viewer in that program.

00:36:15.000 I've interviewed him.

00:36:16.000 I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars one million years ago.

00:36:22.000 And he claimed to have remote viewed holocaust.

00:36:25.000 Hominid-like creatures, but they were like 12 to 14 feet tall, walking around, pyramidal structures.

00:36:33.000 I don't know, very strange.

00:36:34.000 And then you get into crazier territory.

00:36:37.000 Richard Hoagland had all these pictures of structures on Mars, and I don't know how much weight to put in that.

00:36:42.000 Hoagland did a lot of weird leaps, though.

00:36:45.000 Yeah.

00:36:45.000 Tons.

00:36:46.000 But I think the people that say, like, 0% There was life on Mars.

00:36:52.000 I mean, there are water caverns all over Mars.

00:36:54.000 That is a fact.

00:36:56.000 So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point.

00:37:03.000 So it's like some percentage possibly real.

00:37:06.000 On the Terrence Howard stuff, I see zero evidence for that.

00:37:09.000 I mean, I have no idea.

00:37:11.000 That would point to maybe, like, I would believe that if, like, our whole universe is sort of information theoretic.

00:37:17.000 So, like, you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from Princeton, you know, saying we live in this sort of observer-dependent universe.

00:37:25.000 He talks about, like, the anthropic principle, like, where Planck's constant, we're slightly different.

00:37:29.000 the Earth's atmosphere wouldn't exist as is.

00:37:32.000 And another example is like, That's just because of these perfect crystal structures.

00:37:48.000 And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood like a million times over.

00:37:52.000 You know, the Earth is mostly water, right?

00:37:53.000 So you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards The Earth has been tried in a bajillion iterations, and we just got really lucky.

00:38:05.000 You know, it's like the Elon thing.

00:38:06.000 We are the little flaming candle in this vast cosmos that is conscious, and we are extremely lucky.

00:38:12.000 Or that could point to the Earth being simulated.

00:38:16.000 Right.

00:38:17.000 And so then maybe Terrence Howard is right.

00:38:19.000 If the Earth is simulated, there are probably A-B tests going on, just like in computer science.

00:38:25.000 And then there's the Moon.

00:38:26.000 And the moon's weird, too.

00:38:28.000 The moon's really weird.

00:38:29.000 The moon's super weird.

00:38:30.000 The size of the moon directly corresponding, like, when it's in orbit with the sun completely blocks out the sun perfectly.

00:38:38.000 It's 1 400th the size of the sun, and it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the sun.

00:38:45.000 You never see the dark side, which is very weird.

00:38:48.000 It's actually, I think, I believe it's closer to the Earth than what you would normally expect.

00:38:53.000 For a moon.

00:38:54.000 And it's huge.

00:38:55.000 It's huge.

00:38:56.000 You have cultures actually talking about a pre-moon period, and it's stabilizing the climate.

00:39:00.000 You have the Zulu cultures talking about this.

00:39:03.000 And then, this is the weirdest stuff about the moon.

00:39:07.000 Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, oh, we think it might be hollow, and it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense.

00:39:21.000 Or sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site.

00:39:26.000 That's obviously, you know, on Earth, the lower you go, it's more dense, right?

00:39:30.000 And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle onto the moon.

00:39:38.000 They put seismometers there, and they said that it rang like a bell.

00:39:42.000 This is all that you could look all this stuff.

00:39:45.000 It's super weird.

00:39:47.000 It is really weird.

00:39:48.000 You know, I know you did an episode about that with Randall Carlson.

00:39:51.000 Love Randall Carlson.

00:39:52.000 Yeah.

00:39:52.000 He's got some wild fucking theories, too.

00:39:55.000 But the idea that the moon was somehow another place there to stabilize our atmosphere is so crazy.

00:40:04.000 It is crazy.

00:40:05.000 And then this is...

00:40:07.000 You obviously have to sort of think in...

00:40:35.000 And he says that there, and he gets it, the whole thing goes crazy.

00:40:38.000 I mean, the book is insane.

00:40:39.000 It's like he then ends up in a supermarket and he says that he senses that this woman at the, you know, the produce aisle is like an alien or something.

00:40:46.000 But a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed, you know, structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing.

00:40:53.000 Well, AJ from the Y Files was on, and he was the one that was telling us that there's photos, right, of the dark side of the moon, that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly, that there were structures, that, wow, this is going to be the biggest news ever, and that it was never released?

00:41:12.000 Are you talking about maybe Carl Wolf?

00:41:15.000 Is that what it was?

00:41:16.000 He was taken to, this is all his claims, and he died in a freakish bike accident a little after saying this.

00:41:23.000 But he said that there was like in Langley, Virginia, where a lot of spooky stuff goes on.

00:41:29.000 He was taken to some like, it was like inside a mountain complex, which we definitely...

00:41:36.000 That guy bikes?

00:41:39.000 Apparently not enough.

00:41:40.000 That guy could die any time on a scooter.

00:41:43.000 So, photographs of the 1966 Lubiner Orbiter mission that revealed large base of the moon.

00:41:48.000 Can we hear what he's saying?

00:41:50.000 Just hear a little bit of it.

00:41:54.000 Scan one section of the moon, then another, and another, and then they would get a larger image.

00:41:59.000 So this mosaic, then, would be put in that contact printer, and that was then a print that was issued to whomever, the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go.

00:42:11.000 So he was showing me how all this worked and we walked over to one side of the lab and he said, "By the way, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon." What do you mean, whose?

00:42:24.000 He said, yes, we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon.

00:42:28.000 And at that point, I became frightened and was a little terrified, thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're in jeopardy, we're in trouble, because he shouldn't be giving me this information.

00:42:42.000 I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over.

00:42:48.000 And then he pulled out one of these mosaics and showed this base, which had geometric shapes.

00:42:55.000 There were towers.

00:42:56.000 There were spherical buildings.

00:42:59.000 There were very tall towers and things that looked somewhat like radar dishes, but they were large structures.

00:43:07.000 So I didn't say any more to him because I was concerned again that somebody was going to come in at any moment.

00:43:15.000 Would catch us having this conversation and we would be in real trouble.

00:43:20.000 I realized that he was telling me this information because he didn't have anybody else to talk to.

00:43:25.000 Now probably in that laboratory he was probably one of the few enlisted people and he was a worker bee.

00:43:34.000 And he had a high-level security clearance, obviously, but he couldn't share that information with anybody else.

00:43:39.000 And in those days, we didn't.

00:43:40.000 When you had your security clearance, you took it seriously.

00:43:43.000 It isn't like today where people don't take these things seriously.

00:43:46.000 We had a different set of morals and ethics and values.

00:43:50.000 That's the way we were raised, and we stayed bound by those agreements.

00:43:54.000 So it was rare that someone would do something like this, but this fellow and I were the same rank.

00:44:00.000 I think he was very distressed.

00:44:03.000 He had the same pallor and demeanor as the scientists outside the room.

00:44:07.000 They were just as concerned as he was.

00:44:10.000 And he needed to discuss it with somebody.

00:44:13.000 So that was the end of it right there.

00:44:16.000 I didn't take it any further than that.

00:44:19.000 I just filed it away.

00:44:22.000 But the interesting thing, every day that I went home, I would think to myself, I can't wait to hear about this on the news!

00:44:33.000 Look at the news to see if they're going to announce we've discovered a base on the backside of the moon, being really naive.

00:44:40.000 And of course, here it is 30 some years later and we still haven't heard about it.

00:44:45.000 Whoa.

00:44:47.000 Whoa.

00:44:48.000 Pretty crazy.

00:44:49.000 Yeah.

00:44:49.000 But then there's the question of disinformation, right?

00:44:54.000 Like you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense.

00:45:00.000 And tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak and it won't be verified and it's going to make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less likely or reluctant to study it.

00:45:14.000 And in his case, he says that he was in this mountain base or whatever.

00:45:14.000 Totally.

00:45:19.000 Where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like, you know, collegial UN style space program or whatever.

00:45:27.000 So that to me might be a little, you know, beyond the pale.

00:45:30.000 And I'm glad you made that point because that is UFOlogy 101.

00:45:35.000 And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure.

00:45:41.000 and I think that is the reasonable response.

00:45:47.000 It's just, we're going to give you a little bit, but we're also going to sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit.

00:45:52.000 We're going to stigmatize it.

00:45:53.000 And it kind of works because it creates this initiation path for recruiting if there are any of these programs.

00:46:00.000 It widens the surface area.

00:46:02.000 It both conditions the populace, but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like kind of a joke.

00:46:07.000 And so I think if you are not viewing...

00:46:23.000 Yeah.

00:46:24.000 But that's what's so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject.

00:46:29.000 Yeah.

00:46:29.000 I mean, that's like the majority of your videos.

00:46:31.000 It's like, I don't know.

00:46:32.000 I don't know what to think.

00:46:33.000 I don't know who's full of shit.

00:46:50.000 Yep.

00:46:51.000 Yeah.

00:46:51.000 So, like, yeah.

00:46:52.000 That's a...

00:46:53.000 I've, by the way, since making that video, I've become more positive on Lazar just insofar as I think he was at...

00:47:09.000 And I think there's going to be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there.

00:47:14.000 and a lot in his story checks.

00:47:16.000 But I think you have to view, And I even say that in this video that I think a lot of the story could be true.

00:47:22.000 You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story.

00:47:26.000 You can't just take it at face value because John Lear is this babbling UFO nut.

00:47:32.000 He's obsessed with UFOs.

00:47:33.000 He's writing weird, like, disinfo-y style stuff with Bill Cooper, Behold the Pale Horse Guy.

00:47:39.000 Which is a wild book.

00:47:40.000 Which is a wild book.

00:47:42.000 Yeah.

00:47:43.000 And so, he's crazy.

00:47:44.000 He talks about, doesn't he talk about bases on the moon?

00:47:47.000 He talks about bases on the moon.

00:47:48.000 Lear also talked about a soul catcher that, like, controlled our souls on the moon.

00:47:53.000 And so Lear was, like, flooding the zone with all sorts of weird jets.

00:47:53.000 Oh, boy.

00:47:56.000 Lear comes from an interesting family.

00:47:58.000 Right.

00:47:58.000 His father is Bill Lear, who is the autopilot wizard.

00:48:01.000 He created the first business, you know, basically the first private jet, the Learjet, in the 50s and 60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown.

00:48:11.000 Yeah.

00:48:12.000 And so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit.

00:48:15.000 Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur?

00:48:20.000 I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot.

00:48:22.000 In fact, there is a video of him saying, I was told, I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever, and I was told about, you know, to actually, like, he said, a guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth.

00:48:42.000 I even have this video actually on the doc that I sent you, Jamie.

00:48:45.000 It says, knew that I ran my mouth.

00:48:48.000 So that's why we basically, we got Bob a job or whatever.

00:48:51.000 And we knew that part of this stuff would leak.

00:48:53.000 And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever.

00:48:58.000 And he was this useful idiot to sort of get it out.

00:49:04.000 You give people high level...

00:49:07.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:49:09.000 And the MJ personnel, the original 12 have all passed away so they get different people It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ-12.

00:49:36.000 It turns out that MJ-1, the head of MJ-12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan.

00:49:42.000 He wanted to get some of the information out because he thought that some of this information should be out in the public.

00:49:51.000 We don't need to keep all this secrecy.

00:49:54.000 So he decided, trying to figure out a way to get it to the public.

00:49:58.000 So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew.

00:50:04.000 They investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, but that he had a background such They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything.

00:50:20.000 He'd go back to Caltech.

00:50:22.000 "No, I don't see any records here." "Well, I was here." "No, you weren't." And he also, up in Reno at one time, he ran a cat house there.

00:50:33.000 I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch was.

00:50:37.000 They chose him because not only could he probably help them, because he was so smart, and he's the one that named an unpenium 115.

00:50:48.000 He's the one that told them what that was, and they didn't know when he went there, they didn't know what it was.

00:50:55.000 He was the one that told them.

00:50:56.000 That's element 115.

00:50:58.000 And then told them why and how he'd figured it out.

00:51:01.000 But they decided to pick on Bob.

00:51:07.000 To go up to work at S4, because they knew that Bob would tell me instantly, and then I would blab the whole thing.

00:51:15.000 And that was their modus separandi, was to get the information out, engage what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, no, it was all a mistake.

00:51:27.000 Bob Lazar is a...

00:51:30.000 He never worked here.

00:51:31.000 He doesn't have any credentials like that.

00:51:33.000 And they can back away and get out of it.

00:51:35.000 So that was what Mike McClellan came up with.

00:51:39.000 Isn't that crazy?

00:51:40.000 Weird.

00:51:41.000 It's weird, and to me, It does.

00:51:45.000 And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world.

00:51:49.000 He's not saying it didn't happen, right?

00:51:51.000 He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy, where they knew that they could...

00:52:00.000 They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel.

00:52:03.000 They knew that they were, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller serendipitously.

00:52:12.000 They knew that they had plausible deniability on all that stuff.

00:52:15.000 There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer In spite of his communist sympathies, I hired him because of them.

00:52:26.000 If you have a top-secret program, you want compromise on people.

00:52:29.000 You want to be able to blackmail them.

00:52:31.000 And so I think, you know, that should be taken at face value, in my opinion.

00:52:37.000 And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob Lazar got a job at Area 51, S4.

00:52:51.000 And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background check.

00:52:55.000 And Lear is going to come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right?

00:53:04.000 And he was flying CIA cargo jets.

00:53:07.000 And he says that he disaffiliated in 83. That's bullshit.

00:53:10.000 George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell have talked about how that's BS.

00:53:14.000 And actually he disaffiliated much later, into the mid-80s or whatever.

00:53:17.000 Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets?

00:53:23.000 And then the guards at Area 51 knew John Lear.

00:53:27.000 John Lear and Jim Goodall, his buddy, who's a photographer, had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade.

00:53:33.000 Like, the security guards there knew him.

00:53:36.000 Jeremy Corbell has talked about in interviews, like, I would go with John Lear, and he would show me around or whatever, and they would, like, let him through.

00:53:43.000 And before leaking the Bob Lazar story to George Knapp, he leaked a story about the F-117, which is the first stealth craft in the U.S. And so I think that helped establish sort of, you know, credibility or legitimacy.

00:53:56.000 Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur?

00:53:59.000 There's a photo of John Lear with G. Gordon Liddy.

00:53:59.000 I don't know.

00:54:02.000 He's like as deep and spooky as it gets.

00:54:04.000 I met him.

00:54:05.000 No way.

00:54:06.000 He was on Fear Factor.

00:54:07.000 No way!

00:54:08.000 G. Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor?

00:54:08.000 Yeah.

00:54:10.000 Yeah.

00:54:10.000 Are you serious?

00:54:11.000 Yeah.

00:54:11.000 You're not messing with me.

00:54:12.000 G. Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor.

00:54:12.000 No, no.

00:54:14.000 What?

00:54:15.000 Yeah, he probably would have won, but there was a driving thing at the end, and he couldn't drive well without glasses, and you weren't allowed to wear glasses.

00:54:23.000 Yeah, look at that.

00:54:24.000 G. Gordon Liddy.

00:54:25.000 And John Lear.

00:54:26.000 That is the most gonzo thing I've ever...

00:54:29.000 G. Gordon Liddy was...

00:54:34.000 Celebrity Fear Factor.

00:54:35.000 Celebrity Fear Factor.

00:54:37.000 Yeah.

00:54:38.000 That's wild, man.

00:54:39.000 He's a fascinating guy.

00:54:40.000 He was intense.

00:54:41.000 Meeting him, I was like, okay.

00:54:43.000 What was he like?

00:54:44.000 Fucking intense.

00:54:45.000 There was one of the things where you had to be hung by your ankles, and like, there he is.

00:54:50.000 Oh my god.

00:54:52.000 Yeah, G. Gordon Liddy on Fear Factor.

00:54:53.000 Yeah, he looks nuts.

00:54:54.000 Oh yeah, he was nuts.

00:54:55.000 And he was very old at the time.

00:54:56.000 But I think that's what fucked him up in the final stunt.

00:54:59.000 He couldn't see well without his glasses.

00:55:03.000 So this is the thing they had to like, They were dunked into the water over and over again and then they had to like take flags off of them or something like that.

00:55:14.000 Oh my god.

00:55:15.000 Yeah, wild.

00:55:16.000 Did you sneak any...

00:55:20.000 No, I didn't.

00:55:21.000 You know, I didn't have much time to talk to him, unfortunately.

00:55:25.000 But you could just tell talking to him, he was one intense motherfucker, even as an old man.

00:55:31.000 Did you get sociopathic vibes?

00:55:33.000 Oh, yeah.

00:55:34.000 Oh, yeah, just like, he'll do whatever the fuck it takes to get the job done.

00:55:38.000 You pulled off Watergate. 0.52

00:55:39.000 Yeah, look at him there.

00:55:41.000 Oh, my God.

00:55:43.000 Crazy.

00:55:44.000 Crazy.

00:55:45.000 Yeah.

00:55:46.000 That is unbelievable.

00:55:48.000 What an artist.

00:55:49.000 What an amazing.

00:55:50.000 I mean, you've had a lot of crazy experiences in life.

00:55:53.000 Yeah.

00:55:54.000 That's a weird one.

00:55:54.000 That's crazy.

00:55:55.000 That was a weird one.

00:55:56.000 Because everybody was, you know, they weren't, the people that were on the show weren't nearly as fascinated as I was.

00:56:02.000 I was like, do you know how fucking wild that dude is?

00:56:05.000 I mean, that guy is deep.

00:56:07.000 He's deep in there.

00:56:08.000 Deep.

00:56:09.000 Very deep.

00:56:11.000 Oh my god.

00:56:13.000 That's unbelievable.

00:56:16.000 Yeah.

00:56:17.000 Wild.

00:56:18.000 It's a gonzo moment.

00:56:19.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:56:20.000 Like, very strange.

00:56:21.000 Like, why would you do this?

00:56:23.000 I don't even understand why he did it.

00:56:26.000 It's proof we live in a simulation.

00:56:27.000 Yeah, maybe.

00:56:29.000 It was very strange.

00:56:31.000 Like, what would be his objective?

00:56:33.000 I feel like people like that love fucking around.

00:56:37.000 They love getting a rise out of people.

00:56:40.000 If he is a sociopath, he loves going back to the scene of the crime and just as much attention as he can get.

00:56:46.000 I can't psychoanalyze.

00:56:48.000 He famously put cigarettes out on himself.

00:56:51.000 Hold his hand into flames.

00:56:53.000 I didn't know that.

00:56:54.000 Just to show that he could control his response to pain.

00:57:00.000 And he felt like that when you're around him.

00:57:00.000 Psychopath.

00:57:02.000 You know, like, so that thing that they had to do where they...

00:57:13.000 He did it better than anybody.

00:57:15.000 Wow.

00:57:16.000 And they just couldn't drive.

00:57:17.000 At 150 years old, or whatever the fuck he was.

00:57:19.000 Yeah.

00:57:20.000 I felt like we're going to kill him.

00:57:21.000 He's really old to be doing this intense physical thing to him.

00:57:25.000 Yeah, but at the end, he just couldn't see at night.

00:57:29.000 When you get old, your nighttime vision is real bad.

00:57:33.000 Poor G. Gordon Liddy.

00:57:35.000 Yeah.

00:57:36.000 So how did Lazard know what element 115 was?

00:57:41.000 I don't know.

00:57:42.000 You know, so element 115, elements are just differentiated by the number of protons.

00:57:48.000 So it is easy to predict there will be an element 115 before element 115 gets discovered.

00:57:54.000 I think they don't have a stable version of Muscovium, which is element 115.

00:58:00.000 And so if they can find some stable version, I think he'll be super vindicated based on that.

00:58:06.000 Well, you know, they think he has a stable version.

00:58:08.000 I know that.

00:58:09.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:58:10.000 They think that was part of, during Jeremy Corbell's documentary that he was doing on Lazar, he was raided by the FBI.

00:58:16.000 They raided his lab.

00:58:17.000 And he thinks that's what they were looking for.

00:58:20.000 That is wild.

00:58:21.000 Yeah.

00:58:21.000 I think there is so much real about the Lazar story.

00:58:25.000 I think he was at S4.

00:58:26.000 I think he met Edward Teller.

00:58:27.000 I think he was at Los Alamos.

00:58:29.000 I think he was at MIT.

00:58:30.000 I know there's some stuff he told you offline.

00:58:34.000 MIT's engaged in a lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk about what you were doing.

00:58:38.000 There's a lot of federally funded weird stuff going on there.

00:58:41.000 Yeah, if you want to teach your people how to do something that's kind of fucked up, you would send them to MIT.

00:58:47.000 100%.

00:58:47.000 Yeah.

00:58:52.000 And that's where he ended up working after meeting Edward Teller was EG&G.

00:58:57.000 So I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true.

00:59:00.000 I'm just, that lens, you need to apply that lens.

00:59:04.000 Right.

00:59:04.000 The limited hangout lens.

00:59:05.000 Well, it's also, like, what is he dealing with, really?

00:59:09.000 Like, what is the craft?

00:59:10.000 Is that thing ours?

00:59:12.000 Did we have something in 1988 that was that sophisticated?

00:59:17.000 Or is that really back-engineered?

00:59:20.000 Is it a mindfuck?

00:59:22.000 That's a trillion-dollar question.

00:59:24.000 Is this tech protect?

00:59:26.000 This is at a time when stealth craft had just came on the scene and you had It was the F-117 was the first stealth crowd.

00:59:37.000 That was the early 80s.

00:59:39.000 And you had actually this guy named Pyotr Ufimtsev, who is this...

00:59:44.000 Yeah, a great name.

00:59:46.000 Early 20th century Russian mathematician.

00:59:50.000 Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunk Works had resuscitated.

00:59:54.000 There's this kind of fight between, not fight, but disagreement between Ben Rich, who is the incoming Skunk Works director.

01:00:01.000 Skunk Works is the most advanced R&D division of Lockheed Martin.

01:00:04.000 And Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunk Works.

01:00:08.000 And so Ben Rich was very pro-stealth.

01:00:11.000 He thought that this was this really important modality.

01:00:14.000 He and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross-sections on planes.

01:00:22.000 And that's where the F-117 came and you know the B-2 was sort of the response to that and it sort of took off in the 80s.

01:00:30.000 And he was extremely Scared about about tech protection at the time and he was hyper vigilant and he would actively complain about it And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time pretty crazy, right?

01:00:49.000 And there's also, in 1986, there's a budget line item in the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora.

01:00:56.000 And this is this super stealthy craft that's post F-117.

01:01:02.000 And that's only rumored.

01:01:03.000 Like today, nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real.

01:01:06.000 And the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR-71 or the space shuttle.

01:01:14.000 And so there was something being flown around at that time that was causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for.

01:01:21.000 And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, I saw the Aurora.

01:01:25.000 It was around at the time and it sort of just took off or whatever.

01:01:31.000 Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff, because why are you exposing some probably classified tech?

01:01:38.000 I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real.

01:01:41.000 There was an oil rig engineer in the North Sea, or sorry, it might have been the Black Sea, that sketched it out, and Bill Sweetman, this Jane's Defense Weekly aviation journalist, you know, picked that story up.

01:01:54.000 What did he describe it as?

01:01:55.000 It was a triangle similar to the B-2, but I think more narrow.

01:02:02.000 And it just flew incredibly fast.

01:02:07.000 Faster than the F-117.

01:02:11.000 Yeah, I don't know.

01:02:13.000 It was super advanced.

01:02:14.000 Can you envision, would it be actually possible in 1988 to...

01:02:34.000 It's funny you should ask that.

01:02:36.000 Yes, I do.

01:02:38.000 And that's not to say, I don't want to, again, pour cold water on the UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there.

01:02:45.000 But is there a tech tree that involves anti-gravity?

01:02:49.000 Absolutely, in the U.S. I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown.

01:02:56.000 So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us.

01:03:02.000 They'd be like, you're crazy.

01:03:03.000 If we were to talk amongst any aerospace graybeard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile. 0.94

01:03:12.000 And they'd say, okay, maybe there's something there.

01:03:14.000 And so...

01:03:22.000 Like, everything is, you know, chemical combustion, essentially.

01:03:24.000 You had Elon Musk on, and he says, you know, it's all Newton's three laws, you can't get anything better.

01:03:29.000 And I remember you asked him, you're like, well, maybe if you, what if you could get something better?

01:03:33.000 And he's like, it's impossible.

01:03:36.000 We have not unified the field in physics.

01:03:38.000 So you have the weak force, the strong force.

01:03:43.000 And electromagnetism, and all of those have been reconciled.

01:03:46.000 Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island.

01:03:49.000 So you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity.

01:03:54.000 And the two are not reconcilable.

01:03:56.000 It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think any even reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say, if you could reconcile them, that's possible.

01:04:10.000 I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally.

01:04:14.000 Not theoretically.

01:04:15.000 I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally.

01:04:19.000 And so there's this whole hidden history involving antigravity, and I get into this in my show with Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein, where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified.

01:04:32.000 It's real.

01:04:33.000 David Grush actually cites it a lot.

01:04:34.000 And it talks about, basically, It's this guy, Harry Turner, who's the head of the nuclear division in Australia.

01:04:43.000 You know, very legit guy.

01:04:45.000 He's like, they're Oppenheimer, if you will.

01:04:47.000 And they were actually, they had a Wumera test range in southern Australia.

01:04:53.000 So there were some actually British Empire, like nuclear stuff going on.

01:04:57.000 It was mostly like, I think...

01:05:00.000 But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with.

01:05:04.000 And so he looked into U.S. efforts into, you know, UFO research, but also specifically anti-gravity.

01:05:10.000 And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, U.S. efforts into anti-gravity are far deeper than meet the eye.

01:05:20.000 And Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force, is total BS.

01:05:27.000 Meant to, you know, stigmatize UFOs and throw people off the trail.

01:05:32.000 And it's actually, you know, this now declassified document around the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel, that kind of created the constitution for Blue Book.

01:05:41.000 All shows that this was the case with Blue Book.

01:05:44.000 He says, actually, there were secret anti-gravity programs going on at the time, and they involved, and he lists names, Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller.

01:05:54.000 He lists all these things.

01:05:55.000 The head of the nuclear program in Australia.

01:06:00.000 And so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this official government document saying this stuff.

01:06:04.000 Does this line up with any artifacts at the time?

01:06:07.000 Well, actually, in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal, by a guy named Michael Gladich.

01:06:17.000 And he is quoting all of the industry experts.

01:06:21.000 Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about.

01:06:25.000 Who else is quoted?

01:06:27.000 George Trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RIAS, their anti-gravity research program.

01:06:32.000 He says, "Anti-gravity research is, you know, Like, it's right around the bend sort of thing.

01:06:45.000 You had the patron of Bell Aircraft.

01:06:49.000 They had just broken the sound barrier with the X-1 in 1947.

01:06:52.000 So there you go.

01:06:53.000 Michael Gladage.

01:06:54.000 The G engines are coming.

01:06:56.000 Whoa! 0.71

01:06:58.000 Whoa.

01:07:00.000 By far the most potent source of energy is gravity.

01:07:02.000 Using it as power, future aircraft will attain the speed of light.

01:07:07.000 Holy shit.

01:07:09.000 And Bell says, like, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear fuels to cancel out gravity.

01:07:15.000 Richard Arnowitz and Stanley Desser.

01:07:17.000 Look at they have a diagram of how it would work.

01:07:20.000 It's wild.

01:07:20.000 Protective boundary layer.

01:07:22.000 Yep.

01:07:23.000 Cabin.

01:07:24.000 Electronic rockets, gravity generator.

01:07:26.000 They talk about gravity particles.

01:07:29.000 Stanley Desser and Richard Arnaud at Princeton are studying this.

01:07:32.000 So what do you think was going on?

01:07:34.000 I think they were deeply investigating antigravity.

01:07:37.000 But do you think they had a working model?

01:07:40.000 I think they had an effect, called the Byfield Brown effect, that shows So I'll back up and I'll just give you what the experiment is.

01:07:59.000 So you take a capacitor, right?

01:08:01.000 And so a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode.

01:08:05.000 It's an asymmetric capacitor.

01:08:07.000 So the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor.

01:08:13.000 In between the two is an insulator called the high-K dielectric.

01:08:18.000 So it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.

01:08:23.000 You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity.

01:08:28.000 And Brown used to do it with DC, direct current pulses.

01:08:32.000 And you see thrust going from the negative to...

01:08:38.000 And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust, right?

01:08:51.000 So that's not breaking physics.

01:08:53.000 If you do this in a depressurized vacuum chamber, where there basically is no air to create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it.

01:09:11.000 He talked about the Casimir effect, which is a real effect that involves not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract.

01:09:24.000 There's the Aronoff-Bohm effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic four potential.

01:09:28.000 There are other effects in physics where you can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are harbingers, if you will, of the next paradigm.

01:09:37.000 I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm.

01:09:44.000 Black body radiation is a great example. 1.00

01:09:45.000 It was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff.

01:09:49.000 We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he actually discovered quanta.

01:09:57.000 The orbit of Mercury is another good example, where we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had space-time curvature in Einstein.

01:10:06.000 So Newton didn't quite explain it.

01:10:08.000 So my belief is the Bifield-Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly, visually unify the field.

01:10:17.000 Or it's pointing towards something else.

01:10:19.000 Gravitational shielding.

01:10:20.000 Or it's pointing towards how I'll put off stuff around quantum vacuum fluctuations.

01:10:25.000 I don't have a great theory for how it works.

01:10:25.000 I don't know.

01:10:29.000 I don't think Brown had an amazing theory for how it works.

01:10:32.000 But it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion that leads us to today.

01:10:41.000 It's an effect that's not supposed to happen and this Is that it?

01:10:48.000 That is a lateral propeller version of it.

01:10:53.000 And you don't have to listen to me, by the way.

01:10:56.000 The lead electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Buehler.

01:11:00.000 He's been doing this for 20 years.

01:11:02.000 He's at Kennedy Space Center.

01:11:05.000 They use electrostatics to clean dust off the lunar lander or whatever because those particles are actually charged.

01:11:13.000 He's the most senior guy in electrostatics.

01:11:16.000 And he says this is not a conventional electrostatic force.

01:11:19.000 And he attributes his work to Townsend Brown.

01:11:22.000 I could show you in an interview.

01:11:23.000 He literally says Townsend Brown was like the first guy to discover this.

01:11:27.000 He's updated it a bit.

01:11:29.000 He says that You don't need to use mega voltage and actually electric field strength is the most important thing.

01:11:36.000 So we use kilovolts and he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust.

01:11:42.000 But he has a whole company around this.

01:11:43.000 It's called Exodus Space.

01:11:45.000 So you don't have to listen.

01:11:46.000 Another very credentialed person, if we're on that, a guy named Carl Nell, who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B2 stealth bomber.

01:11:57.000 I don't think...

01:12:01.000 It's a part called electro-hydrodynamics that made it into the B-2 stealth bomber.

01:12:04.000 But the point is, I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman.

01:12:09.000 And he also was the army representative of the UAP task force, along with David Grush, where they're investigating UFOs.

01:12:16.000 And he says, I was in a room, you know, filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs.

01:12:21.000 I was like, Carl.

01:12:22.000 These people want actionable stuff.

01:12:24.000 Can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff?

01:12:27.000 Or is it all kind of metaphysical and not even wrong, as Feynman would say?

01:12:33.000 And he goes, well, if you want some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown.

01:12:40.000 And so I've gotten this time and time again where I've had all these private experiences with Brown where I'm like, is anybody seeing this? 1.00

01:12:48.000 This is crazy.

01:12:52.000 It's you know, I don't know.

01:12:53.000 It's weird.

01:12:54.000 So let's take this back to when was Brown conducting these experiments initially?

01:13:01.000 Yeah.

01:13:01.000 What year was this?

01:13:02.000 The early 20s.

01:13:03.000 So like 1923, 24 range.

01:13:06.000 Whoa.

01:13:06.000 He was a child prodigy.

01:13:08.000 So their newspaper clinic, he was from Zanesville, Ohio.

01:13:11.000 He was born in 1905.

01:13:12.000 In 1915, he was caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil.

01:13:22.000 Then at age 12, the World War government under Woodrow Wilson, it was probably the local government, told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created, an antenna that he had created, like this walkie-talkie system that he had developed at the time.

01:13:36.000 And there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that totally corroborate this.

01:13:41.000 He then goes to Caltech.

01:13:42.000 He studies under a guy named Robert Milliken, who's actually a really well-respected physicist who was...

01:13:54.000 Millikan doesn't really give him the time of day on the Bifield-Brown effect.

01:13:58.000 And the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using Coolidge x-ray tubes.

01:14:04.000 So these were really early x-ray tubes, and every Coolidge tube has a cathode and an anode, so a negative and a positive electrode.

01:14:14.000 And he would pump it full of, you know, High voltage electricity.

01:14:19.000 And the wire would jump.

01:14:21.000 And then he would actually put it in a fixed chassis and it would keep jumping.

01:14:24.000 And then he would suspend it from the ceiling and it would keep jumping.

01:14:27.000 And he was like, what's going on?

01:14:29.000 This isn't supposed to happen.

01:14:30.000 And there are ways to, again, explain that away via traditional electrostatics.

01:14:35.000 So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it.

01:14:39.000 But after Caltech, he then goes to Denison University where he studies under a guy named Paul Alfred Byfield.

01:14:46.000 And Denison University, for the longest time, has denied that relationship, and now they're admitting it, which I find really funny.

01:14:52.000 The archivist there is now admitting it.

01:14:54.000 There is an affidavit from the Navy where Paul Alfred Biefeld signs a letter saying, I witnessed this effect.

01:15:02.000 It's an anomalous effect.

01:15:03.000 From there, he goes on, and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius, who's at the right.

01:15:09.000 Patterson, Wright Airfield at the time, Flight Test Division, he's working with Colonel Albert Boyd on all the crazy flight tests.

01:15:16.000 In 1952, he says, believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer, and I was frightened.

01:15:21.000 And I'm frightened for it getting out, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development.

01:15:29.000 And that's 1952.

01:15:31.000 He then shows a fan precipitator experiment, which really shows the electrodynamic effect.

01:15:38.000 Which is similar but not the same as the the electromagnetism gravity thing to Edward Teller the father of the H-bomb and Edward Teller himself says I don't know how this works and then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter and I have this by the way on a phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter who's saying this all happened it turns to To her, and she says, I've never heard him say that, because he's such a genius.

01:16:03.000 I mean, he was a Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the H-mom. 1.00

01:16:07.000 And so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses.

01:16:12.000 Brown was an associate of Bill Lear.

01:16:15.000 You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab, in the Bainson Lab in North Carolina together.

01:16:21.000 In fact, there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957, which is...

01:16:31.000 And actually, Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show.

01:16:34.000 It's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

01:16:38.000 They are funding Brown's work in the back room.

01:16:41.000 And there is video of Brown working on his experiments, working under Agnew Bainson.

01:16:45.000 And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of anti-gravity research.

01:16:53.000 University of North Carolina is one of those outposts.

01:16:56.000 It's crazy.

01:16:57.000 And says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all of this stuff.

01:17:01.000 The president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is a guy named Gordon Gray, who's a super spooky guy.

01:17:10.000 He revoked Oppenheimer's Q clearance.

01:17:14.000 And he's also implicated in these sort of MJ-12 documents, which I don't necessarily want to mush in with Brown.

01:17:20.000 It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material, like limited hangout lens.

01:17:25.000 Gordon Gray is this very interesting character.

01:17:27.000 The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill Conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world.

01:17:37.000 Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people.

01:17:43.000 At the same time, they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers, and there's video of him.

01:17:54.000 Popping champagne.

01:17:56.000 Where it's like, why are you popping champagne?

01:17:58.000 Probably because you got a successful experiment.

01:18:00.000 That was the second time he had tested this in a vacuum.

01:18:05.000 So again, it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect.

01:18:09.000 Before that, a year before that, in Paris at the Montgolfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum.

01:18:16.000 And this guy named Jacques Corneone was this.

01:18:19.000 He died in 2009.

01:18:20.000 But Townsend Brown's biographer has him.

01:18:23.000 On record in a phone call that is recorded saying the tests were very tricky, but in the end we got it to work.

01:18:29.000 And he's on his deathbed.

01:18:30.000 And he's saying all this.

01:18:32.000 And you have a 125-page report for the Montgolfier project.

01:18:37.000 And when Brown comes back to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs...

01:18:48.000 He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the H-bomb.

01:18:51.000 He's talking to this guy, Wilbert Smith, who's this magnetics expert in Canada about their experimentations with UFOs.

01:18:59.000 And so he's the guy that picks up, and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time.

01:19:05.000 And he's the guy who picks up Brown, where it's like, "Okay, we've got to take this seriously because you've got it to work in a vacuum." The idea that they've kept all the I don't think it is.

01:19:19.000 To me.

01:19:20.000 Yeah, sure.

01:19:20.000 I mean, I'm sure it's not.

01:19:22.000 You know what I mean?

01:19:23.000 But from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects, that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades.

01:19:35.000 Yeah.

01:19:36.000 It seems crazy to me.

01:19:39.000 But he had something, Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called, it was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect.

01:19:50.000 So these are two very different things.

01:19:52.000 One is coupling, again, electromagnetism and gravity somehow, creating some gravity shielding or whatever.

01:19:58.000 that you can do this in a vacuum.

01:19:59.000 And then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos, which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have, The copper wire is the positive electrode.

01:20:16.000 The tinfoil is the negative electrode.

01:20:19.000 The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating...

01:20:27.000 So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravitic thing.

01:20:33.000 It wears the mantle of being electrogravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that Well, what about material science?

01:20:44.000 Like, what about the actual structure itself?

01:20:47.000 You know, because this is where it gets really weird, right?

01:20:50.000 Yeah.

01:20:51.000 these nano layers of whatever the material is that's being used?

01:20:58.000 What was the...

01:21:02.000 Bismuth, yeah.

01:21:02.000 So this is what's crazy.

01:21:04.000 So magnesium bismuth...

01:21:08.000 It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winter Haven proposal in 1954 where he's describing these electrogravitic effects because it's a high-K dielectric.

01:21:16.000 It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.

01:21:19.000 But it also shows up, there's actually an interview with Lewis Witten, who's the father of Ed Witten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wein says is the Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on your show.

01:21:29.000 Lewis Witten says there's a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting.

01:21:38.000 Who's named Townsend at that time?

01:21:40.000 He's talking about Townsend Brown.

01:21:42.000 If you actually look at Gary Nolan's samples, Gary Nolan is a PhD at Stanford, a tenured professor.

01:21:51.000 He has spun out multiple nine-figure companies in biotechnology.

01:21:55.000 Really smart guy.

01:21:56.000 He runs the Sol Foundation.

01:21:57.000 They're studying non-human intelligence.

01:22:00.000 He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Vallée, who you've had on as the French godfather of ufology.

01:22:09.000 His address is posted online.

01:22:11.000 If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques.

01:22:13.000 Jacques sends a lot of his materials to Gary.

01:22:16.000 One of the materials is magnesium bismuth.

01:22:19.000 And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think.

01:22:27.000 And magnesium bismuth is a high-K dielectric, and it's over and over again, it's mentioned by Thomas Townsend Brown.

01:22:36.000 So you have this weird thing around the material that creates more thrust via these anti-gravity experiments.

01:22:43.000 It's also showing up in UFO lore.

01:22:49.000 From another world?

01:22:51.000 That's where it gets weird, man, because that was early.

01:22:54.000 That was July of 1947.

01:22:56.000 Right, so the bismuth thing, when you're talking about the way this stuff is layered, that's where it gets really weird, right?

01:23:03.000 That's where it's layered, thinner than, you know, it's like micron layered, like thinner than human hair, as I think the Hal put off quote on this.

01:23:11.000 And I don't know the provenance on that.

01:23:13.000 And I don't know, you know, per games being played in this space.

01:23:17.000 I don't know if that actually came from the Roswell crash.

01:23:20.000 If it didn't come from the Roswell crash, like, let's imagine, is it possible to make that stuff today?

01:23:28.000 And with those layers?

01:23:31.000 Hal Puthoff would say no, and it's probably beyond my material science knowledge.

01:23:35.000 Yeah, I don't know.

01:23:35.000 Yeah.

01:23:37.000 People who are very smart on this subject, like Hal and Gary, who I speak to, you know.

01:23:41.000 At a decent frequency say no.

01:23:43.000 Okay, so if they say no, maybe they're wrong.

01:23:46.000 Maybe there is a lab somewhere that can recreate it.

01:23:49.000 But could they recreate it at scale?

01:23:51.000 Like, could they 3D print that to something that could actually get people inside and fly around?

01:23:56.000 And then, could that have been done in 1947?

01:24:00.000 That's where it gets super fucking weird.

01:24:02.000 It gets super weird.

01:24:04.000 There's some leaps, right?

01:24:05.000 Okay, we had the H-bomb. 0.86

01:24:07.000 We had atomic energy.

01:24:10.000 We had a lot of stuff back then.

01:24:11.000 They split the atom.

01:24:12.000 There's some really incredible advances.

01:24:15.000 I don't believe we had anti-gravity.

01:24:16.000 If I track Brown's stuff at the time, which I think he was kind of the tip of the spear on this stuff, he was using...

01:24:33.000 The Chapel Hill Conference was much later, and that's where he's officially proving this stuff in the U.S. government context in 1957.

01:24:41.000 So I do not believe that the Roswell crash is easily explained by an early anti-gravity.

01:24:46.000 Kelly Goddard, who is a father of American rocketry, was doing rocket testing.

01:24:52.000 Around Roswell at the time.

01:24:54.000 And so that's like total chemical combustion.

01:24:57.000 You had V2s at the time where, you know, that was top of the line.

01:25:00.000 Yeah, so this opens up the door to the possibility of back engineering.

01:25:03.000 Absolutely.

01:25:05.000 Which is where it gets really weird.

01:25:06.000 So now we're not dealing with hidden science.

01:25:08.000 We're not dealing with top secret, compartmentalized, like, you know, need-to-know, everything's pushed away into Skunk Works and wherever the fuck it's done.

01:25:17.000 You're talking about something that's not from here.

01:25:20.000 Well, it's interesting you say back engineering.

01:25:22.000 In 1949, there is a contract that anybody can look up.

01:25:26.000 I put it on the doc, Jamie, between Wright Airfield at the time and Battelle Memorial Institute.

01:25:36.000 And you have, shout out Columbus, Ohio.

01:25:39.000 All roads lead to Ohio.

01:25:40.000 Right?

01:25:41.000 And you have all these types of And one of them is called nitinol, which is a nickel titanium alloy.

01:25:50.000 So this is 49. This is 1949.

01:25:53.000 And so if you have, you know, Army Intelligence Officer, you know, Jesse Marcel, says that he picks up the crash material.

01:26:02.000 And he says that it was like this shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind of, you know, mess with it and it would go back into its original form, right?

01:26:10.000 It was like this kind of like tinfoil-y like thing.

01:26:13.000 And so Nitinol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s.

01:26:17.000 That was when it was actually fully published.

01:26:19.000 But you have this contract between Wright Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute where you have Nitinol as one of the metals that they're testing.

01:26:29.000 Not only that, in 2012, they used the Freedom of Information Act to figure out that a guy named Elroy John Senter, E.J. Senter, was one of the co-authors of that paper.

01:26:42.000 Elroy John Center died, I think, in 1991.

01:26:47.000 Before that, he had told two MUFON UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and Irene Scott, and they presented this at MUFON in Ohio in 1992.

01:26:56.000 They said this guy was this metallurgist.

01:26:59.000 He worked at Battelle.

01:27:00.000 Again, he's been FOIA'd as part of this paper.

01:27:02.000 And he says, I worked on alien material.

01:27:08.000 And that there were weird hieroglyphics on it.

01:27:10.000 And that I had to, like, you know, I was a chemist.

01:27:15.000 And so he had to look at, like, metal impurities.

01:27:18.000 But he was also meant to decipher the, you know, hieroglyphics on it or whatever.

01:27:24.000 And so I don't know.

01:27:25.000 Was Nitinol maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered?

01:27:29.000 Because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash wreckage ended up at Wright Airfield.

01:27:34.000 Or was it, you know, this one-to-one thing?

01:27:36.000 And EJ Center is at this...

01:27:46.000 You can look that up.

01:27:47.000 Not only is there a record that the Roswell crash was brought to right, but that it was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed and that Truman met them there.

01:28:00.000 Yep.

01:28:01.000 I don't I don't know if that's true.

01:28:03.000 I need to know.

01:28:04.000 I want to see a photo of the fucking hieroglyphs.

01:28:07.000 I know.

01:28:08.000 Could you imagine the glimpse at alien writing?

01:28:10.000 Do you think that would be amazing?

01:28:12.000 Do you think you have a better chance now than ever at being because you interviewed Trump?

01:28:19.000 Would Trump let you be the disclosure guy and I could be the water boy on the side making sure that the pH is right?

01:28:26.000 That's possible.

01:28:27.000 I don't think they tell Trump shit.

01:28:29.000 I think they would withhold that from him.

01:28:31.000 Why would you tell that guy?

01:28:33.000 Yeah.

01:28:34.000 I mean, that guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned.

01:28:38.000 I mean, he's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ICE stuff.

01:28:47.000 There's a lot of stuff that I think is allowed to go on, but I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, You think they're going to tell the guy who is the host of The Apprentice?

01:29:05.000 I don't think they tell him because I think he's only in there for four years.

01:29:08.000 Probably not with two caveats.

01:29:11.000 One is his son, Don Jr., interviewed him and said, what do you think happened at Roswell?

01:29:15.000 And he said, well, I think there's something very interesting that might have happened.

01:29:18.000 Yeah, that's all he ever says.

01:29:20.000 And he said he was on your show, too.

01:29:21.000 He doesn't spill the beans at all.

01:29:23.000 But I mean, maybe he doesn't spill the beans because he doesn't know where the beans are.

01:29:26.000 Right.

01:29:27.000 Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking guy.

01:29:29.000 Is that really his primary concern?

01:29:32.000 He's a 78-year-old man who doesn't do drugs.

01:29:37.000 He's had no psychedelic experiences.

01:29:39.000 Maybe he's not even interested in this concept.

01:29:43.000 I think about that sometimes with people on the Hill that I speak to where I'm like, I'm giving you all this info.

01:29:50.000 Can you think outside the box?

01:29:51.000 Figure it out.

01:29:52.000 They don't compute it.

01:29:54.000 There's a person who, like, you're the archetype of this, who's, like, so fascinated by it.

01:30:01.000 And then there is a person who goes, but I've got to pay taxes, dude.

01:30:04.000 Yeah, they have to get re-elected.

01:30:05.000 They're super busy.

01:30:07.000 Yeah, you'd have to find someone whose primary concern is that.

01:30:10.000 And that bug has to bite you.

01:30:13.000 You have to get infected with UFO Lyme disease.

01:30:16.000 If you don't, you're not going to want to release all this stuff.

01:30:21.000 And I don't think Trump is infected.

01:30:23.000 I mean, I think his, even the way he describes these things is very different than the way he describes other things.

01:30:30.000 Like, he famously was talking to Steve Hilton, and it was...

01:30:43.000 These guys want to go to war.

01:30:44.000 And he was saying that in that interview and I remember thinking like wow that is wild.

01:30:49.000 To hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this incredibly dense complex of corporations and defense contractors and there's insane amounts of money involved and these guys want to go to war.

01:31:07.000 And he was saying that in that interview.

01:31:13.000 Straight up.

01:31:14.000 Yeah, straight up.

01:31:15.000 There's a straight line between then and now, and it feels like it's hitting this apex where we're involved in it.

01:31:21.000 It's like you had the Civil War, 1861.

01:31:23.000 Now we have like...

01:31:37.000 Yeah.

01:31:37.000 It's crazy.

01:31:38.000 Yeah.

01:31:39.000 It's pretty wild.

01:31:40.000 It's pretty wild how nothing gets done.

01:31:42.000 And it's set up so nothing gets done.

01:31:45.000 But my point is that Trump, his response to that is an informed response.

01:31:50.000 There's this military-industrial complex.

01:31:52.000 These people want to go to war.

01:31:54.000 He doesn't talk about this UAP thing that way.

01:31:57.000 I've seen some things!

01:31:59.000 Crazy things!

01:32:01.000 What are you saying?

01:32:02.000 Be specific.

01:32:03.000 Handsome pilots!

01:32:05.000 Crew cuts like you!

01:32:07.000 Good guys!

01:32:08.000 Nice guys!

01:32:09.000 Good Americans!

01:32:10.000 What do you know?

01:32:12.000 Didn't he say something on your podcast about men from Mars?

01:32:15.000 Or something?

01:32:16.000 He goes, the people from Mars or something.

01:32:18.000 It's hard with him because he speaks in this sing-songy, oversimplified way.

01:32:24.000 And he rants.

01:32:25.000 And he rants.

01:32:26.000 Well, he's got a strong rant muscle, right?

01:32:28.000 Because he does these stadium tours where he goes to these enormous places and he basically just works without a script.

01:32:34.000 So it's like he's got a rant muscle.

01:32:36.000 There's a few people, like Tim Dillon is the best comedian who has a rant muscle.

01:32:40.000 He just can rant.

01:32:41.000 He just, like, get a microphone in front of him and a subject and he knows.

01:32:45.000 Trump has that muscle.

01:32:47.000 He's developed that muscle over all these years of campaigning.

01:32:50.000 And so it's really hard to interview him because he just essentially turns on that rant muscle when the mic's on.

01:32:55.000 And you've got to interject, like, hold on, okay, but what are you saying?

01:32:59.000 What do you know?

01:33:00.000 What do you know?

01:33:01.000 Will you release this information?

01:33:04.000 If you found out that for sure we have been visited and that we are in possession of Crashed UFOs that were not made by China. 0.92

01:33:15.000 They were not made by Russia.

01:33:17.000 They're not made by America. 0.90

01:33:18.000 They're from another civilization that we don't understand.

01:33:22.000 Would you tell us?

01:33:25.000 What do you think he would say?

01:33:27.000 There's a lot of information.

01:33:28.000 I don't know if I could release it.

01:33:30.000 I don't know if they'd let me.

01:33:32.000 You know, like, I don't know what holds it back.

01:33:36.000 I want to know if he's in it, like...

01:33:39.000 I didn't, actually.

01:33:40.000 You should.

01:33:41.000 It's really good.

01:33:42.000 I don't know how you would see it right now because it's not released yet.

01:33:45.000 And I don't know what they're doing as far as getting it released, but...

01:33:48.000 Did you come out believing more, more skeptical?

01:33:51.000 What was your...

01:33:52.000 Both.

01:33:53.000 With, like, with all of it.

01:33:55.000 I think some is bullshit.

01:33:57.000 Some of it is misinformation.

01:33:59.000 Some of it is they're releasing this slow trickle.

01:34:04.000 Like, if it all is real.

01:34:06.000 I think the strategy is to slowly get us accustomed to the concept, just the idea that we're not alone, and just get it in there.

01:34:15.000 Okay, first step, first shot across the bow, 2017, New York Times.

01:34:21.000 New York Times says, not of this world, oh my god.

01:34:25.000 You see the pictures of the gimbal and the go fast, and you're like, okay.

01:34:29.000 All right, now we're talking.

01:34:30.000 But that's eight fucking years ago, right?

01:34:33.000 Nothing real significant in eight years.

01:34:36.000 And so then you have sightings, you have these, you know, different pilots, Commander Fravor.

01:34:42.000 He comes out and does podcasts.

01:34:44.000 You have Ryan Graves.

01:34:46.000 He comes down and does podcasts.

01:34:48.000 You know, you have Lou Elizondo.

01:34:50.000 Everybody's talking.

01:34:51.000 No one's showing you shit.

01:34:53.000 Yeah.

01:34:53.000 You have Fowler, who you had on your show.

01:34:55.000 I had Fowler.

01:34:56.000 What did you think of him?

01:34:57.000 I thought that he's...

01:35:02.000 They have on their website a container for the data.

01:35:05.000 They haven't populated it yet.

01:35:06.000 I want to see the data, and I want to see scientists.

01:35:11.000 They don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic, but they have to kind of go in being like, I don't know what UFOs are.

01:35:16.000 I don't know anything about this stuff.

01:35:17.000 And like vetting it.

01:35:19.000 Now, being as deep as I am in UFO research, we're like...

01:35:26.000 There's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and Nukes, and it's like 600 pages.

01:35:31.000 And it is 167 Q cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see Tic Tacs, or saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites, often disarming the nukes.

01:35:46.000 And so...

01:35:51.000 I'm like, if I don't have that ontology where UFOs are showing up around nukes constantly, which I'm deep in this, and they do.

01:35:58.000 They show up all around the world.

01:36:00.000 There's a town in Japan called Eno, which is next to the Fukushima Prefecture.

01:36:05.000 Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s.

01:36:08.000 It has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s that they built.

01:36:12.000 Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs.

01:36:14.000 Vice did a documentary in 2020.

01:36:16.000 2022, because they are obsessed with UFOs.

01:36:19.000 They're geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain.

01:36:22.000 Sengon Mori there, and there are UFO researchers there.

01:36:26.000 Everybody in that town believes in UFOs.

01:36:28.000 Bariloche, Argentina, 1995.

01:36:32.000 You have a commercial pilot.

01:36:33.000 They're famous for, again, civilian nuclear grid.

01:36:36.000 Commercial pilot at Aerolinas Argentinas or whatever.

01:36:40.000 Famous UFO sighting.

01:36:41.000 It shuts down the power at the airport, and the plane can't land, and then it goes around in a circle, and there are people on the flight who have been interviewed.

01:36:51.000 It's on a YouTube video.

01:36:53.000 It's pretty simple and easy to digest.

01:36:54.000 Even Roswell, 1947, the largest stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date.

01:37:01.000 At that time, 1947.

01:37:03.000 So there are all these declassified documents.

01:37:05.000 In 1949, there was an emergency meeting.

01:37:08.000 Declassified Air Force document that is verified between Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Army Counterintelligence, Army CIC, FBI.

01:37:17.000 Office of Naval Intelligence, all these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the US.

01:37:25.000 In 1952, there's a Look Magazine article where Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, who's kind of marginalized pre-Blue Book really taking off with Jalen Hynek, who I think was...

01:37:36.000 I do.

01:37:36.000 Really?

01:37:37.000 Yeah, and he's claimed to have, like, gotten better and kind of be, you know, like, he admitted his part in the cover-up, but then I think he kept going on with some fuckery.

01:37:47.000 Oh.

01:37:47.000 Yeah.

01:37:48.000 Yeah.

01:37:48.000 So if you don't have that ontology, there's even Vasily Alexeyev is a Russian general.

01:37:57.000 And in a German magazine from 2000, he's interviewed.

01:38:01.000 And he talks about how...

01:38:07.000 And when we transport certain material, the UFOs show up.

01:38:11.000 In Chapter 9 of The Invisible College by Jacques Vallée, he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system.

01:38:18.000 And when we, you know, it's like a node lights up, like when we engage in super advanced research or something, he talks about ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous.

01:38:30.000 So if you don't have that ontology, like, yeah, me saying like these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit, like in the desert, like, you know, getting stuff to show up, you're gonna be like, that's a fucking Mylar balloon.

01:38:42.000 I'm sorry.

01:38:43.000 Right.

01:38:43.000 But because if you have that, if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, I do think they can get stuff to show up what they're getting to show up.

01:38:52.000 I don't know.

01:38:53.000 Can they get it to land?

01:38:54.000 I don't know.

01:38:59.000 What signals are they putting out there that represent supposedly something to these UAPs?

01:39:05.000 Unfortunately, they kind of black box it.

01:39:07.000 So I have to assume it's either nuclear.

01:39:09.000 They do say that they have a dog whistle, which is a certain frequency.

01:39:12.000 There is a frequency floating around online that somebody claims to have doxxed.

01:39:17.000 That might be their thing, but I don't want to say that that's definitely their thing.

01:39:21.000 But the idea is they call them.

01:39:23.000 They use something.

01:39:25.000 To send a signal out there and then these crafts respond.

01:39:29.000 Is it 100% of the time?

01:39:30.000 They say that the dog whistle works 100% of the time.

01:39:33.000 And they have a combination of mechanical means of attracting UFOs and of, this is really weird, but humans trying to call in the UFOs.

01:39:42.000 I've heard that before, right?

01:39:43.000 Yeah, CE5 is sort of a comment.

01:39:47.000 I don't want to make it.

01:39:49.000 That might be, yeah, 2.5k.

01:39:51.000 What do you not want to make, Jimmy?

01:39:52.000 I don't know.

01:39:53.000 Do you want me to show this or not?

01:39:53.000 I don't know if you're saying it's bad.

01:39:55.000 I don't want to give it.

01:39:56.000 No, I'm not saying it's bad.

01:39:57.000 It seems like it's on Reddit.

01:39:59.000 I think it's fine.

01:39:59.000 I don't think Skywatcher would say that that's definitely, you know, endorse that as their thing because they kind of black box it, but that could be.

01:40:08.000 That could be real.

01:40:09.000 Okay, so what it's saying, want to know how to make the dog whistle for summoning UAP.

01:40:13.000 Here's how.

01:40:14.000 Super easy.

01:40:15.000 What's his signal?

01:40:17.000 7.83 hertz.

01:40:18.000 528Hz carrier via modulated 100Hz bass tone, Schumann resonance.

01:40:24.000 Do you understand any of this?

01:40:25.000 Me?

01:40:26.000 Yeah.

01:40:27.000 Do you know what they're saying?

01:40:28.000 Well, Schumann resonance is the kind of electromagnetic frequency of the Earth itself.

01:40:33.000 And so I don't know what that means, modulated via 100Hz.

01:40:36.000 What is this 528Hz harmonic spiritual frequency?

01:40:39.000 What is that?

01:40:40.000 That's a low tone.

01:40:41.000 I don't know.

01:40:42.000 Is that what it is, Jamie?

01:40:43.000 I just know the numbers.

01:40:44.000 So when you get up to 17k, that's a high.

01:40:48.000 That's a real high pitch.

01:40:50.000 Oh, and the high numbers like that are low?

01:40:52.000 Yeah, and then low is...

01:40:55.000 So 20 hertz is as low as you can hear.

01:40:57.000 That's like a low bass sound.

01:40:58.000 So I guess there's being generated out of some sort of machine, which doesn't say here on what you need to generate it.

01:41:04.000 But I don't know if you just play it on a piano or anything.

01:41:06.000 Interesting.

01:41:07.000 And then organic, 2.5 hertz chirps every 10 seconds, like creature calls, giving it a unique signature.

01:41:15.000 Huh.

01:41:16.000 I don't know where he would get this.

01:41:18.000 He just could be a kook. 0.98

01:41:19.000 He needs to be a kook. 0.94

01:41:21.000 There's so many kooks out there.

01:41:23.000 There are a lot.

01:41:24.000 Boy, there's so many kooks.

01:41:25.000 There's so many kooks.

01:41:26.000 Kooks and grifters.

01:41:27.000 It's infiltrated.

01:41:29.000 So my contrarian take about UFOs is there are so many kooks and grifters.

01:41:35.000 But there are more people with ulterior motives who are telling partial truths than full kooks and grifters.

01:41:44.000 And that makes it so complicated because you're like, you're bad vibes and you are doing some controlled opposition thing.

01:41:51.000 But I have to listen to you because you have some interesting info.

01:41:54.000 That's the problem.

01:41:54.000 Right.

01:41:55.000 That's the problem.

01:41:56.000 I've had conversations with people like that where I'm talking, I'm like, I think you're at least partially full of shit, but keep going.

01:42:02.000 Yeah.

01:42:02.000 Tell me more.

01:42:03.000 Totally.

01:42:04.000 You're like, I know there's some stuff, and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me, and you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit, and then you'll track it.

01:42:11.000 Right, right, right.

01:42:12.000 It's this weird game.

01:42:14.000 Well, in the Age of Disclosure, one of the things they go into is that if these programs have been running, and if they have been back-engineering There's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds.

01:42:32.000 So anybody who did that is going to jail.

01:42:35.000 So what they're calling for is mass amnesty.

01:42:38.000 To say, hey, we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program.

01:42:44.000 Otherwise, we're never going to learn anything.

01:42:45.000 And then there's the problem with corporations.

01:42:49.000 So if you give this to Lockheed Martin, what does General Electric think about that?

01:42:54.000 Well, hey, you motherfuckers, how come you didn't clue us?

01:42:56.000 So then they want to sue.

01:42:57.000 So then they sue the federal government for, you know, whatever, interfering with competition.

01:43:03.000 Yes.

01:43:04.000 So there are all those issues, and right now the UAP Disclosure Act is up again.

01:43:08.000 It was killed by a guy named Mike Turner, who has a bunch of aerospace.

01:43:11.000 The fuck, Mike?

01:43:12.000 Mike, come on, Mike Turner.

01:43:13.000 Come on, Mike.

01:43:14.000 He's out now.

01:43:15.000 Oh, he's out.

01:43:15.000 And guess what?

01:43:16.000 He represented Dayton, Ohio, where Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is.

01:43:22.000 And Jamie.

01:43:24.000 Sorry, Jamie.

01:43:25.000 Jamie gets so excited when you bring up Battelle and all the Ohio shit.

01:43:30.000 We've gone deep.

01:43:34.000 From the 40s.

01:43:35.000 From the 40s.

01:43:36.000 But even the all-domain anomalies resolution office, which is like the authoritative office that is, I think, the modern blue book that's, you know, basically saying, don't look here, like, this is all bullshit or whatever.

01:43:48.000 Run by a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick.

01:43:49.000 He has all these, like, atomic connections.

01:43:51.000 He worked at Oak Ridge, for God's sake.

01:43:54.000 The guy that formed Arrow, And my good friend UAP Gerb, who has an amazing channel, he's a super deep UFO researcher, showed that it was on his resume, and then he recommends that Arrow form.

01:44:22.000 It's like a total conflict of interest.

01:44:23.000 It's insane.

01:44:24.000 It's insane.

01:44:25.000 Yeah.

01:44:26.000 There's so many bottlenecks to disclosure, like legal bottlenecks.

01:44:30.000 Yes.

01:44:31.000 Yeah.

01:44:32.000 Especially the misappropriation of funds.

01:44:34.000 Yeah.

01:44:35.000 I mean, how much money was involved?

01:44:38.000 Well, you must be talking about billions and billions and billions of dollars if all these programs are real.

01:44:43.000 So if they've been lying to Congress...

01:44:48.000 It has to be on.

01:44:49.000 And it's funny.

01:44:49.000 A lot of Modern Disclosure talks about OSAP and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012, kind of under the auspice of Harry Reid.

01:44:57.000 And that budget was $22 million.

01:45:00.000 A single F-35 costs four times that.

01:45:04.000 The B-2 costs like $2 billion.

01:45:07.000 Like, give me a break.

01:45:08.000 The nature of reality, you're going to spend $22 million on.

01:45:12.000 So it's funny how the whole conversation is on this, like, clearly this thing to, like, get more civilian eyes on the issue, maybe see what they can figure out or whatever.

01:45:21.000 The core program, if there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core program— It's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th, 2001, where he said $2 trillion was missing from the Pentagon's budget.

01:45:38.000 It's shit like that or this woman named Catherine Austin Fitz who was just on Tucker Carlson who is at housing and urban development under George Bush 41 where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget.

01:45:52.000 It is not this little $10.

01:45:59.000 Yeah.

01:46:00.000 Like, what?

01:46:01.000 Yeah.

01:46:01.000 And she says it at a moment.

01:46:03.000 First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan, who Richard Dolan is, like, hardcore UFO researcher.

01:46:08.000 Half that interview, and Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is, so it's this funny thing.

01:46:11.000 And then he's like, where are the funds being used?

01:46:14.000 And she goes, space. 0.64

01:46:15.000 And it's like, where?

01:46:17.000 It's not being used.

01:46:18.000 SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the spear, right?

01:46:20.000 Right.

01:46:20.000 SpaceX, Blue Origin.

01:46:21.000 So, like, what do you mean space?

01:46:23.000 Right.

01:46:24.000 SpaceX is basically like those fucking go-karts that people send down hills with no engines.

01:46:30.000 Right.

01:46:31.000 You know what I mean?

01:46:32.000 Like, what are those things called?

01:46:33.000 You know those things when they have races where people, they make their own little- Down the hill. 0.53

01:46:38.000 So he went to Derby?

01:46:39.000 No, no, not the, yeah.

01:46:41.000 Soap boxes.

01:46:42.000 Yeah, that's what it's like.

01:46:43.000 Yeah, that's what SpaceX is.

01:46:45.000 Exactly.

01:46:46.000 Right?

01:46:47.000 If we have any of this shit, that's what SpaceX is.

01:46:49.000 It's using really ancient technology to achieve...

01:46:54.000 It's business.

01:46:54.000 I think Elon's amazing.

01:46:57.000 He's single-handedly resuscitated NASA, but it is an Earth-based space company.

01:47:02.000 I think he keeps stuff secret.

01:47:04.000 He does.

01:47:05.000 He absolutely keeps stuff secret.

01:47:08.000 When he tells me there's no evidence of aliens, there's something about it that just stinks.

01:47:14.000 When he's saying it, I'm like, okay.

01:47:16.000 Okay.

01:47:18.000 I'm looking at him.

01:47:20.000 Yeah.

01:47:20.000 Nothing?

01:47:21.000 Yeah.

01:47:21.000 You don't think nothing?

01:47:23.000 I just want to see if Jesse's heard of this before.

01:47:23.000 I'll pop something.

01:47:25.000 I stumbled down this when you guys were talking about some stealth project.

01:47:30.000 This is an article from Wired in 1994.

01:47:33.000 I looked up the guy who wrote it.

01:47:35.000 He's written a bunch of articles about the black budget back then.

01:47:39.000 He was talking about a guy named Steve Douglas who, through monitoring the communications, he heard different pilots talking about What probably is the TR-3 Black Manta.

01:47:52.000 And then it says he's got a picture of it.

01:47:55.000 I couldn't find it anywhere online.

01:47:57.000 Nothing even close comes up to it.

01:47:59.000 But it says he had a video of it.

01:48:01.000 A picture.

01:48:02.000 I'm assuming some people have seen it.

01:48:04.000 Because it talks about it.

01:48:05.000 Then it goes into talking more and more about how he did this.

01:48:09.000 and he says he's got files of them talking about all sorts of different planes at night that you were mentioning the Mach 6 R when I was like...

01:48:18.000 That's fascinating.

01:48:19.000 I haven't seen it.

01:48:21.000 There's obviously tons of rumors about the TR-3A and the TR-3B.

01:48:24.000 The Belgian wave occurred around this time, and it was like late 80s, early 90s.

01:48:30.000 I think a lot of the triangle craft that people see are human.

01:48:35.000 The Phoenix Lights stuff?

01:48:37.000 Because a lot of people saw it during the Phoenix Lights.

01:48:39.000 They saw the Triangle Craft.

01:48:41.000 Kurt Russell was actually flying his plane and saw the Phoenix Lights.

01:48:43.000 This is the one I brought up the other day that they said they think was in Desert Storm and they just don't really have.

01:48:49.000 Any proof online today.

01:48:51.000 The TR-3B, this looks like the triangle thing that everybody's seen.

01:48:55.000 Yeah, look, what is the fucking center of it?

01:48:57.000 What is that all about?

01:48:59.000 Well, this is just probably someone made a photo trying to describe it.

01:49:02.000 I know.

01:49:02.000 The bottom of it is what everybody says.

01:49:04.000 What?

01:49:06.000 So the TR3 series, that was built by Northrop, I believe.

01:49:09.000 Is that right?

01:49:09.000 Like Aurora was Lockheed and that was right?

01:49:14.000 No one knows.

01:49:19.000 All the talk online is back into the 90s of just like, do these exist?

01:49:23.000 We probably have them.

01:49:24.000 No one knows for sure.

01:49:25.000 So here's a weird...

01:49:27.000 Okay, so I think this is North...

01:49:28.000 I think TR3, the TR3 series is Northrop.

01:49:31.000 So the connection between Northrop and Townsend Brown is...

01:49:40.000 Floyd Odlem is the majority owner of Northrop, pre-merger with Grumman.

01:49:45.000 And so Townsend Brown is doing these experiments at Guidance Technologies, his outfit in Santa Monica.

01:49:50.000 This investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out.

01:49:56.000 He is doing these experiments.

01:49:57.000 Bill Lear actually has an office across the street.

01:49:59.000 They're doing all sorts of cool, innovative stuff.

01:50:02.000 He does a series of presentations.

01:50:04.000 Curtis LeMay, for the RAND Corporation, for all sorts of head honchos when it comes to American military.

01:50:12.000 In 1967, Guidance Technologies shuts down with no explanation.

01:50:17.000 They say, you know, our results all failed.

01:50:20.000 But after a series of these high-level meetings, that was at the end of 1967.

01:50:25.000 Three months later, at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called Electro-Aerodynamics and Supersonic Flow, or In-Supersonic Flow, and it is basically paying homage to electro-hydrodynamics and Townsend Brown's work.

01:50:40.000 It is exactly, part and parcel, Townsend Brown's work.

01:50:46.000 They then do a press release at the time.

01:50:49.000 They retract the press release because they are embarrassed.

01:50:51.000 Then later, Bill Scott at Aviation Week in, I think, 1992 says, The B-2 surfs its own wave using the Byfield-Brown effect.

01:51:00.000 There's a guy who's known as the Doyen of British aviation journalism.

01:51:05.000 His name is Bill Gunston.

01:51:07.000 And he, in Air International magazine, is doing a survey-level overview of all aero engine tech since World War II.

01:51:15.000 And he says, I'm familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend Brown's work.

01:51:22.000 But I don't want to end up in the Tower of London.

01:51:25.000 So I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charged positive to millions of volts charged negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B-2.

01:51:35.000 What?

01:51:35.000 Yes.

01:51:36.000 What is the Tower of London?

01:51:38.000 What's that reference to?

01:51:39.000 He's just saying I don't want to end up in jail.

01:51:40.000 Tower of London is probably where Jack the Ripper ended up.

01:51:42.000 I don't think it was like in, you know.

01:51:44.000 But he's like, don't get on my ass. 0.99

01:51:46.000 Surf's its own wave.

01:51:47.000 surfs its own wave.

01:51:49.000 So if you put that electric Let's do that.

01:52:02.000 Yeah, you can do that.

01:52:03.000 Let's do that.

01:52:04.000 I'll tell you what it says.

01:52:05.000 I'm excited.

01:52:05.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:52:06.000 It's wild.

01:52:07.000 It's wild.

01:52:08.000 I'll give you a bunch of answers.

01:52:09.000 So that's the paper.

01:52:15.000 Electro-aerodynamics.

01:52:16.000 So my point, if the TR3A and B are real, Like, the B2 is still so locked down.

01:52:22.000 We sell F-35s to allied nations, Norway, Canada, you know, whatever.

01:52:26.000 We don't sell B2s to anybody, including allied nations.

01:52:32.000 The ticket price is $2 billion.

01:52:34.000 They have a new version of the B2 that's, you know, I think like $700 million or whatever, but they weren't built at scale.

01:52:40.000 They're extremely locked down.

01:52:43.000 It's pretty crazy.

01:52:45.000 Wow.

01:52:46.000 So what would they be doing?

01:52:48.000 Like, how would it be surfing its own wave?

01:52:51.000 Like, what advantage would that confer?

01:52:54.000 If you do this chat GPT thing, it'll say it doesn't split the airflow as much, and so you get more lift, and there's reduced drag.

01:53:03.000 The shock wave is reduced.

01:53:05.000 The electric fields somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the frame hits the air.

01:53:11.000 And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade.

01:53:16.000 Even, you know, conventional AI will tell you that it will do as far as being helped.

01:53:20.000 Gun to head, how far do you think they've gotten this stuff?

01:53:24.000 Man, I mean, this stuff was being, this was like the 80s, and they were probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s.

01:53:30.000 So, definitely way farther than that, you know?

01:53:34.000 So, do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about, that we see on the desk right there, the sport model, do you think that that was ours?

01:53:44.000 That feels really hard for me to say in good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled.

01:53:51.000 Also, no seams.

01:53:53.000 Looks like it's 3D printed.

01:53:53.000 No seams.

01:53:54.000 Totally.

01:53:55.000 element 113 or 115 rather and this generator that nobody understands.

01:54:00.000 Yeah, I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico Everybody wants the anti-gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti-gravity.

01:54:17.000 Including Lazar.

01:54:18.000 Like he said, when he saw the sticker on it, there was an American flag sticker on the sport model.

01:54:22.000 He's like, oh, I get it.

01:54:24.000 These are ours.

01:54:25.000 That's why people keep seeing them.

01:54:27.000 And then as he starts examining these things, he's like, no.

01:54:31.000 This is not ours.

01:54:32.000 Like, what the fuck is this?

01:54:33.000 This is meant for three foot tall things.

01:54:35.000 Yeah.

01:54:36.000 There's no controls in this.

01:54:37.000 Like, what is this?

01:54:38.000 If reality has a governor on it and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird.

01:54:45.000 Quantum computing.

01:54:46.000 If reality has a governor on it, like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off.

01:54:51.000 Is it like a Hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place?

01:54:55.000 Or do you get one neat solution?

01:54:56.000 You don't get one neat solution.

01:54:58.000 Of course not.

01:54:59.000 It's a zoo of things.

01:55:01.000 And so at the time that the government's kind of unraveling and we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever, and you get these secret science lineages.

01:55:10.000 And then our apertures, people are waking up to greater realities.

01:55:14.000 The fact that the pandemic could even happen is sort of so crazy.

01:55:19.000 And then it makes you question, what about the Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine, and all these things?

01:55:23.000 I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time, and it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti-gravity just, you know, accounts for the UFOs and the aliens.

01:55:32.000 Right.

01:55:33.000 And the UFOs and nukes stuff, which was happening since the 40s.

01:55:36.000 Where it's like, I don't know how, I can't explain that via anti-gravity experiments.

01:55:36.000 Right.

01:55:42.000 And then there's a question of how many?

01:55:45.000 How many different civilizations visit us?

01:55:48.000 How many different things?

01:55:48.000 Yeah.

01:55:52.000 If this is like a testing ground, is this open to the general public of space?

01:55:57.000 Also not zero or one, probably zero or a hundred.

01:56:02.000 It's probably a zoo of things.

01:56:04.000 That's the most likely thing.

01:56:05.000 That was what was interesting about your episode that you did with Fowler where they were documenting the different shapes.

01:56:10.000 And I'm like, okay, where's the flying saucer?

01:56:12.000 You don't have a flying saucer in this.

01:56:14.000 How come you don't have a flying saucer?

01:56:16.000 You have all these other shapes.

01:56:17.000 You have a Tic Tac, you have a Tetris or whatever the fuck it is.

01:56:17.000 Totally.

01:56:21.000 Where's the one that everybody sees?

01:56:23.000 The iconic Billy Myers.

01:56:26.000 Yeah.

01:56:27.000 Yeah.

01:56:27.000 That's weird.

01:56:28.000 You know?

01:56:29.000 It is weird.

01:56:29.000 Also, do you work for the CIA?

01:56:32.000 I do not.

01:56:33.000 I do not work for the CIA.

01:56:34.000 Do you have to answer if I ask you?

01:56:36.000 Do you remember those movies where you ask a guy if they're an undercover cop?

01:56:39.000 You ask them if they're a cop, they have to tell you.

01:56:42.000 People really used to believe that.

01:56:43.000 But it's just a fictional tool.

01:56:45.000 They don't really have to tell you that they're undercover cops.

01:56:48.000 they don't have to tell you.

01:56:49.000 But there is, Which I think they break all the fucking time.

01:56:57.000 So I don't think that's a reason.

01:56:59.000 They probably passed laws that bypassed that a long time ago.

01:57:02.000 For sure.

01:57:02.000 Well, yeah.

01:57:03.000 I mean, I think they also killed JFK.

01:57:04.000 This is the Bainson Lab video.

01:57:06.000 There you go.

01:57:07.000 What's really crazy is that looks remarkably similar to the design that Lazar said the generator looks like that's inside the UFO.

01:57:15.000 Well, here's something crazy.

01:57:17.000 Lazar says there are two different gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called The Structure of Space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation.

01:57:26.000 By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that Skunk Works formed, which I think is very interesting.

01:57:32.000 And he says in Structure of Space, there are two forms of gravity.

01:57:36.000 He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills.

01:57:39.000 And he talks about how the...

01:57:43.000 He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons, and so you get this weak positive charge for all matter that creates a gravity well, like this inward pull, but in fact it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model.

01:58:00.000 And again, I would not over-index on his theory.

01:58:03.000 I think there's tons of proof that he just...

01:58:09.000 Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories.

01:58:11.000 Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics.

01:58:15.000 Hal Putoff's probably the top tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff.

01:58:19.000 Sunny White, you know, other people like that.

01:58:21.000 But yeah, it is interesting that both of these guys had two versions of gravity.

01:58:27.000 Yeah, it's very interesting.

01:58:29.000 It's very interesting.

01:58:30.000 And the Lazar stuff, to me, it's...

01:58:37.000 Right.

01:58:37.000 It's not going to be just one lie from 89. You know what I mean?

01:58:41.000 You basically say the same version of forever.

01:58:44.000 Yeah.

01:58:45.000 I mean, the other weird thing in that story is in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Vallée's book, he talks about, because he's not a believer in Lazar, he talks about Lazar being forced to drink a liquid.

01:58:57.000 And Lazar even talks about this openly, that he was forced to drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something.

01:59:04.000 And it causes memory lapses in certain cases.

01:59:07.000 So that's also a weird factor.

01:59:09.000 But there is so much, I think, my buddy Luigi, I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey.

01:59:14.000 It has an amazing UFO channel called Area 52. And he's met Lazar through Luigi.

01:59:20.000 And I don't want to blow up their spot, but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just Lazar being at...

01:59:27.000 And so it's so fascinating.

01:59:30.000 So they gave him this liquid to kill his memory?

01:59:33.000 That's the idea behind it?

01:59:34.000 I don't know if he knew the intent.

01:59:35.000 It was just drink this or whatever.

01:59:37.000 And then he said that it caused, at least in the Valet readout, he says that it caused memory lapses.

01:59:43.000 It's the quote in Messengers of Deception.

01:59:46.000 Hmm.

01:59:47.000 But here's this way it gets so confusing.

01:59:52.000 It was deleted, you know, the church committee or whatever.

01:59:56.000 But, like, it was a very widespread program.

01:59:58.000 What would be one of the number one use cases where you'd use MKUltra?

02:00:02.000 It wouldn't necessarily be to trick somebody into saying that they saw a flying saucer.

02:00:06.000 It would be around the flying saucer program to fuck with the person's memory so that they couldn't read certain things out.

02:00:12.000 So it's just this, Again, it's hard to say.

02:00:15.000 Well, then there's also weird stuff like...

02:00:21.000 You know, like how much of that is just misinformation.

02:00:21.000 Yes.

02:00:24.000 I think a lot of that was passage material.

02:00:26.000 Because it's similar to stuff.

02:00:27.000 Passage material?

02:00:28.000 What does that mean?

02:00:34.000 You can track where the provably false stuff goes or whatever.

02:00:37.000 It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it.

02:00:40.000 It's like spooky intel shit.

02:00:43.000 And in 79, there's a guy named Rick Doty who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane, basically.

02:00:50.000 He views this vertically taken off and landing exotic craft at Kirtland Air Force Base where they're...

02:00:59.000 And he is shown similar things along with Linda Moulton Howe is taken in front of a two-way mirror.

02:01:09.000 And Rick Doty, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent, who we know is acting in bad faith at that time.

02:01:14.000 He's even come out and admitted this.

02:01:16.000 Shows her this thing called Project Garnett.

02:01:18.000 And it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution.

02:01:22.000 To the stuff that they showed Lazar.

02:01:23.000 Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing?

02:01:33.000 It doesn't make sense.

02:01:34.000 And this is what I love about Lazar.

02:01:36.000 Lazar will admit that he's like, I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake and bullshit, and I only am relaying what I saw with regards to the craft, and I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value.

02:01:48.000 So there's Project Galileo, there's Looking Glass, you know, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky and I think worthy of engagement with like all these weird limited hangouts are.

02:02:00.000 Do any of these people that supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities or interdimensional or whatever they are, do any of these people recall a conversation where they warn us about AI?

02:02:17.000 That's such a great question.

02:02:19.000 I don't think so.

02:02:20.000 I don't think so either.

02:02:21.000 It's almost always nuclear.

02:02:23.000 That seems crazy.

02:02:25.000 Well, maybe.

02:02:26.000 That seems crazy.

02:02:27.000 That there's no discussion about you are on the verge of something truly spectacular.

02:02:32.000 Maybe AI is their control system.

02:02:34.000 Maybe they are AI.

02:02:35.000 Maybe they are AI.

02:02:36.000 Maybe AI becomes that.

02:02:38.000 Maybe biological limitations need to be traversed.

02:02:42.000 And the best way to traverse them is to eliminate biology.

02:02:45.000 we are now experimenting with computational biology.

02:02:49.000 You can use things like this neuroscientist, Carl Friston, the free energy prince.

02:02:53.000 There's this company called Cortical Labs, and I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these microelectrode plate arrays, and they program cultured rat neurons to do basic computational tasks.

02:03:07.000 And so that's the super base level, right?

02:03:10.000 We're just creating the transistors for this new model of computation.

02:03:14.000 Go way out into the future.

02:03:16.000 You have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and these things could be drone avatars. 0.68

02:03:22.000 That's why when people are like, why do they crash?

02:03:24.000 This could be their Earth home.

02:03:28.000 They're just von Neumann replicator probes meant to, you know, oversee the Earth.

02:03:33.000 And, you know, a little node lights up when we create nuclear or like an AI thing.

02:03:37.000 Well, it's also like Pasolka, you know, Diana Pasolka.

02:03:40.000 She thinks they're donations.

02:03:42.000 That's what she says.

02:03:43.000 Yeah, they're called donation sites.

02:03:45.000 Yeah, which is like if you want accelerated evolution, like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if you guys made this?

02:03:51.000 Leave the wheel, you know?

02:03:52.000 Just look over here.

02:03:53.000 Leave this, leave that.

02:03:55.000 It kind of, I mean, that's the way to get someone to think outside the box.

02:03:59.000 Plant the seed.

02:04:00.000 Yeah.

02:04:01.000 I mean, you don't want to wait for these morons to figure out how to make this.

02:04:04.000 If you were trying to accelerate technological evolution in North Sentinel Island, which has no contact with humans, what would you do?

02:04:11.000 You might just airdrop a computer, figure it out, you know?

02:04:14.000 They'd be like, a computer, this is great.

02:04:15.000 I'd start with a lighter.

02:04:17.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:04:17.000 Sure.

02:04:18.000 I don't think they have fire.

02:04:19.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:04:19.000 A computer might be a little advanced.

02:04:20.000 Yeah, but yeah, you would give them some stuff.

02:04:23.000 Yeah.

02:04:23.000 Yep.

02:04:24.000 And let them figure out how to make that stuff and give them the raw materials to make that stuff.

02:04:28.000 Totally.

02:04:29.000 Especially if you have some complex alloy, like this bismuth, whatever the hell it is, layered.

02:04:35.000 Find that.

02:04:36.000 Figure that out.

02:04:37.000 Can you make it?

02:04:38.000 You get your best scientist and you compartmentalize it.

02:04:42.000 You do it over decades because you really can't open it up.

02:04:45.000 And this is one of the things that Lazar said that he had deep frustration about while working at S4 is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized.

02:04:54.000 You need to be able to open it up to collaboration.

02:04:56.000 You couldn't collaborate.

02:04:58.000 You weren't allowed to.

02:04:59.000 So it's like, we're not going to get anywhere.

02:05:01.000 Okay, we're going to bring in new people.

02:05:03.000 We're going to bring in a new guy, see if this new genius can say, hey, what do you think of this?

02:05:07.000 You tell me.

02:05:07.000 Like, what is it?

02:05:09.000 That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure, where if you have Cold War era secrecy, it's like if we're ahead of Russia and China, clamp down.

02:05:18.000 We can't let them know anything.

02:05:21.000 But then all of a sudden, maybe they play catch-up.

02:05:23.000 And then all of a sudden, maybe you have this...

02:05:27.000 Archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid foyer requests where you have restricted data covering you know Material found by a specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever And you're you're at the top of the national security pie and you're like, holy Like, we need to update this stuff.

02:05:49.000 So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels.

02:05:53.000 We need some disclosure on these things.

02:06:03.000 Right, right, right.

02:06:04.000 And then you're dealing with China where they've got it completely opened up. 0.92

02:06:07.000 And they're like, make this.

02:06:09.000 Completely opened up and...

02:06:16.000 Yes!

02:06:16.000 Great show on Netflix, too.

02:06:17.000 It's amazing.

02:06:18.000 And the CCP will show up at your door and say, come work for us. 0.55

02:06:22.000 You are working here.

02:06:23.000 And that's not really the way we do things.

02:06:25.000 So the way we do things is, like, you get the stuff out and these kind of partial, limited hangouts, and you go, go compete!

02:06:31.000 Like, just like the AI stuff, you know?

02:06:33.000 It's like, see what happens.

02:06:33.000 Right, right.

02:06:35.000 Over there, if you leak it, they'll just fucking kill you.

02:06:37.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:06:38.000 You're not gonna leak it.

02:06:39.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:06:39.000 No.

02:06:41.000 It's, to me, the question of civilization.

02:06:45.000 Are we alone?

02:06:47.000 It is the question.

02:06:48.000 And I don't think we are.

02:06:51.000 That's my gut instinct.

02:06:51.000 Yeah.

02:06:53.000 I don't think we are.

02:06:54.000 It seems so ridiculous when people do think we are.

02:06:57.000 I agree.

02:06:59.000 What about the numbers?

02:07:00.000 Just the sheer numbers.

02:07:01.000 It doesn't make any sense that this is so unique that we, in this one very tiny planet, Occam's razor is we are not alone.

02:07:15.000 You have the Fermi paradox.

02:07:16.000 You have the Drake equation.

02:07:17.000 You have all these sort of rationalist ways of arguing that.

02:07:20.000 But also, look at, there's a great book called The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbisman.

02:07:25.000 And he talks about how, like, at any given time, 50% of...

02:07:33.000 So you can say those things are showing up in the sky.

02:07:36.000 That is wrong because physics.

02:07:38.000 But historically, you would have been wrong.

02:07:41.000 Like, that's crazy.

02:07:42.000 It's a bad point, right?

02:07:43.000 And so if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern enlightenment history is a detour from the past.

02:07:52.000 If you look at every culture, whether it's Iamblichus, or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St. Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament.

02:08:01.000 Like, a multitude of angels.

02:08:03.000 You have angels and demons.

02:08:04.000 You know, that's kind of the passport to Magonia, Diana Bosolka, American cosmic thesis.

02:08:08.000 Like, this stuff has been going on forever.

02:08:11.000 You look at the devas in Hindu culture, or the jinn in Islamic culture.

02:08:17.000 Like, we are outnumbered in our modern, you know, enlightenment, rational skeptic.

02:08:23.000 Yeah, we really are.

02:08:25.000 And how many depictions from the past of flying things?

02:08:29.000 Ezekiel from the Bible, Vimanas, all these different, like, what are they saying?

02:08:34.000 What are these things?

02:08:35.000 What do you think that stuff is?

02:08:37.000 Like, what is it?

02:08:39.000 But then again, you and I, neither one of us has had an experience.

02:08:43.000 So we're just like fucking...

02:08:46.000 Have you seen something?

02:08:47.000 I've seen a UFO.

02:08:48.000 What have you seen?

02:08:49.000 Actually a few.

02:08:51.000 Yeah.

02:08:51.000 Really?

02:08:52.000 How have you been so lucky?

02:08:53.000 I don't know.

02:08:55.000 Maybe it's because they know.

02:08:55.000 I don't know.

02:08:56.000 They know you're working on it.

02:08:58.000 There are UFO researchers that don't like to talk about this, but I think the move is just be honest.

02:09:04.000 I've seen the thing.

02:09:06.000 I was in Laurel Canyon where I used to live and I saw a thing that It looked like no visible propulsion, this sort of low humming noise or whatever.

02:09:19.000 It was maybe 50, 60, 70 feet high, like right above the treetops.

02:09:25.000 The trippiest part of the experience and why it's just so weird is I was with – I was like, actually, I kind of am interested in that topic.

02:09:43.000 And then I think I joked back, I was like, I kind of want to meet an alien.

02:09:46.000 And she was like, me too.

02:09:47.000 And then she goes, you'll meet them when you stop looking for them.

02:09:53.000 Oh, that bitch is an alien. 1.00

02:09:57.000 This is the weirdest part of the whole story.

02:10:00.000 As we're walking, it's like Sunset and Laurel Canyon.

02:10:02.000 We walk by a guy with a metal detector who's looking for something.

02:10:07.000 It's like, why are you looking for something at Sunset and Laurel Canyon or whatever?

02:10:10.000 So that felt like this weird mirroring of our conversation.

02:10:16.000 Again, I have no fucking idea.

02:10:17.000 Then we walk into this little clearing and we see this school bus thing.

02:10:22.000 Just go right over the tree top. 0.93

02:10:23.000 What color was it?

02:10:24.000 It was silver metallic.

02:10:27.000 Like an Airstream trailer.

02:10:29.000 Like an Airstream trailer, yeah.

02:10:31.000 I can send you guys a video.

02:10:33.000 I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast, I described it, and I was sent a video, and for all I know this video is fucking fake, by the way, but it was the thing that looked most like what I saw.

02:10:43.000 Because it doesn't match up with the saucer triangle thing.

02:10:48.000 Yeah.

02:10:49.000 And I don't know.

02:10:50.000 I'm almost more inclined to say discount my own thing over like the Q-cleared guys who've like seen these things. 0.98

02:10:57.000 How long was it in the sky for?

02:10:59.000 It was in the sky for like a few seconds because we couldn't even see past the clearing or whatever.

02:11:04.000 She said she saw it go over the trees and then descend down into the distance.

02:11:09.000 I did not see that.

02:11:12.000 And, like, Laurel Canyon is, like, mostly residential, so, like, where did it descend?

02:11:17.000 Right, right.

02:11:19.000 So, what else have you seen?

02:11:21.000 You said you saw more than one thing?

02:11:22.000 Yeah, so another time, I was actually with a friend who, He's a fan of Noam Chomsky and David Hume.

02:11:35.000 He's a modern rationalist, atheist skeptic.

02:11:38.000 And we went surfing that day.

02:11:40.000 We were back at his place.

02:11:41.000 I was super into holotropic breathwork at the time, which I love.

02:11:44.000 And we were doing holotropic breathwork.

02:11:48.000 Five minutes in, we both see these metallic-looking orbs.

02:11:52.000 This time, super high up.

02:11:56.000 Like, probably, you know, higher than what you would, definitely way higher than a drone.

02:12:01.000 And one's bobbing above him, one's bobbing above me.

02:12:04.000 Similar to, like, the typical, like, orb that, you know, a lot of people sort of describe, like the Mosul orb or whatever, you know, a lot of these sightings.

02:12:12.000 And he looks at me and I go, like, what the fuck is that?

02:12:16.000 He goes, dude, I think that's like some secret black Lockheed tech or whatever.

02:12:21.000 And then I don't even say anything.

02:12:23.000 Two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes, dude, that's not fucking from here. 0.95

02:12:28.000 He's like, that's not Lockheed.

02:12:29.000 Like, I don't know what that is.

02:12:31.000 Do you entertain the possibility that there's states of consciousness that you could achieve where these things become visible?

02:12:38.000 Absolutely.

02:12:38.000 And you've had Rick Strassman on.

02:12:40.000 He talks about, you know, DMT, the spirit molecule.

02:12:42.000 He talks about DMT as like night vision or like it's like goggles or a window, you know.

02:12:50.000 It's like Aldous Huxley, the doors of your perception.

02:12:52.000 Are you superimposing a hallucination onto reality?

02:12:56.000 Or are you just seeing?

02:12:57.000 We see a limited part of the electromagnetic wave spectrum.

02:13:00.000 We see between 400 and 700 nanometers.

02:13:02.000 our audio range, you know, there's a certain decibel limit, right?

02:13:05.000 So, like, when you take a substance like that, are you seeing things that are in objective reality, but...

02:13:15.000 It's actually adaptive for us not to have access to them in our waking reality.

02:13:20.000 And so it's this interesting philosophical question.

02:13:22.000 I don't know the answer to it.

02:13:24.000 Right.

02:13:24.000 Would we even be able to function if we had access to that?

02:13:28.000 Probably not.

02:13:29.000 Probably not.

02:13:30.000 No, it is.

02:13:30.000 There's a guy named Donald Hoffman, who's a cognitive psychologist, and he talks about, it's like, why don't we see electromagnetic?

02:13:38.000 Like, why aren't you seeing hertz frequencies?

02:13:41.000 We need to iconize everything we see, just like a desktop computer.

02:13:46.000 Like, why do you see red?

02:13:48.000 Because, oh, boom, red, blood, gotta run, you know, whatever.

02:13:51.000 and then they hack that with notifications on social media.

02:13:53.000 But the point is we are seeing inherently a collapse condensed version of reality.

02:13:58.000 We aren't seeing the thing itself.

02:14:01.000 And so it ends up in these ontological loops where like, yeah, some rationalist skeptic can be like, you're lying.

02:14:08.000 It ends up in this not even wrong category of like, I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm.

02:14:16.000 But neither the skeptic, we just live in the age of disenchantment where you say, don't trust your eyes.

02:14:21.000 And that's as much faith-based dogma as what I'm saying.

02:14:26.000 So who knows?

02:14:27.000 And that's why I rest when I talk about this stuff on the show.

02:14:30.000 I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more.

02:14:36.000 But it's not to say you should discount these.

02:14:36.000 Right.

02:14:38.000 You know, people's experiences where they do, you know, maybe they're in a peak state of consciousness and they experience a thing.

02:14:43.000 Maybe that thing is real.

02:14:44.000 Yeah, there might be multiple different types of things that come by.

02:14:48.000 And the nuclear one is a weird one.

02:14:51.000 I mean, if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognize an emerging civilization that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be like, hey, fuckers, slow down.

02:15:01.000 Hit the brake, son.

02:15:02.000 You know?

02:15:03.000 You would freak out.

02:15:04.000 Unquestionably, you know?

02:15:05.000 That's why we named the rooms at the Comedy Mother.

02:15:08.000 Mothership, Fat Man, and Little Boy.

02:15:09.000 Because that's when they started showing up.

02:15:11.000 That's when we got a lot of sightings.

02:15:13.000 Post the bombs.

02:15:15.000 Totally.

02:15:15.000 And I love the mothership, by the way.

02:15:18.000 It's amazing.

02:15:19.000 And I love going and seeing how UFO themed, like in preparation for this, I've had a couple of friends be like, I'm like, no, he's just frustrated with disclosure.

02:15:31.000 Go to the mothership.

02:15:32.000 The whole fucking thing is being so UFO.

02:15:34.000 How can anybody say I'm anti-UFO?

02:15:37.000 There's fucking UFOs everywhere.

02:15:38.000 There's one on the desk.

02:15:39.000 There's one behind me.

02:15:40.000 I know.

02:15:40.000 That's so silly.

02:15:41.000 And you broke the biggest UFO story of all time.

02:15:44.000 You've done more for disclosure than anybody, in my opinion.

02:15:48.000 Well, I'm not anti-UFO, but I'm allergic to bullshit.

02:15:51.000 And this stuff, some of it smells like bullshit, which is...

02:15:58.000 Yeah, dude.

02:15:59.000 What do you think is going on there?

02:16:01.000 They break my brain.

02:16:04.000 This was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with and I wish I could give you a definitive these things are definitely dead aliens.

02:16:14.000 I cannot say that definitively at all.

02:16:16.000 I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically Organisms.

02:16:24.000 If they're not, they're incredible works of art.

02:16:26.000 If they're not, they're the most sophisticated hoax ever that basically tricked forensic experts from...

02:16:48.000 who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner in Denver.

02:16:51.000 The equivalent of McDowell is a guy named Dr. David Ruiz.

02:16:54.000 So he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association and the head of the Mexican Navy forensics.

02:17:00.000 This guy named Dr. Jose Salze.

02:17:02.000 All of these guys have seen.

02:17:04.000 I think we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves.

02:17:09.000 Because a lot of people are like, what the fuck are they blabbing about?

02:17:12.000 There are these very small mummified looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a similar kind of thing to a human being, but varies enough that you know it's not us.

02:17:30.000 And it has more ribs, it has more spinal columns, or more discs.

02:17:37.000 This is what they look like.

02:17:39.000 And there's x-rays of them, and that's where it gets really weird.

02:17:42.000 And they're tridactyl, right?

02:17:44.000 So they have three fingers and three toes.

02:17:46.000 Yep.

02:17:47.000 And so these were discovered in 2015 in a cave by a guy named Leandro, who goes by Mario.

02:17:54.000 And this is one of the headaches about the case, is like we don't have good provenance on it.

02:17:58.000 So he is this Wauquero, And they were found in ditomaceous earth. 0.99

02:18:03.000 So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies.

02:18:06.000 Ditomaceous earth is a desiccant.

02:18:08.000 And so they were dried out.

02:18:10.000 And a lot of the organs are actually still inside the bodies.

02:18:17.000 There are S-types, which are these little winged creatures. 0.99

02:18:20.000 There are J-types. 1.00

02:18:21.000 The J-types are probably, they were most popularized in this Mexican Congress where these things were outed in September of 2023, where they look like almost close encounters. 0.94

02:18:30.000 Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see that Peru's Congress, like right there.

02:18:34.000 Like, that thing looks like this, like, jokey, like, Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

02:18:39.000 Yeah, it looks totally fake.

02:18:40.000 It looks totally fake, right?

02:18:41.000 So those are the J-types. 1.00

02:18:43.000 They're like 25-ish, maybe 25 to 30 of those.

02:18:46.000 But then there's the ones that they've x-rayed, and that's where it gets really weird.

02:18:48.000 The weirdest ones that I was talking about, the forensics people kind of evaluating, are these M-types. 1.00

02:18:55.000 These are like four to five feet.

02:18:57.000 They look pretty anatomically consistent.

02:19:01.000 Have you seen them in person?

02:19:02.000 I have.

02:19:03.000 Really?

02:19:04.000 Yeah.

02:19:04.000 And what was your feeling?

02:19:05.000 My feeling was, it was this.

02:19:08.000 Pick those images up, please.

02:19:09.000 It was as with a lot of these things, oscillating between, holy shit, this thing is not from here.

02:19:16.000 And then, dude, you have to like chill.

02:19:19.000 And like, there's so many other things, you know, there's so many other gates this has to get through for us to actually.

02:19:27.000 See if you can go to the x-rays, Jamie.

02:19:29.000 Find the images from the x-rays.

02:19:30.000 one, but there's one that's a little bit better because it's one of the fetal position.

02:19:34.000 It's...

02:19:37.000 Jamie, in my Okay, there you go.

02:19:42.000 So that one has eggs inside of it.

02:19:44.000 What?

02:19:45.000 If you go...

02:19:46.000 Montserrat, which is Yeah.

02:19:51.000 How weird.

02:19:52.000 So if you go to the Montserrat clip, yeah.

02:19:56.000 So this one's pregnant and has what they are claiming to be a tridactyl fetus inside of it.

02:20:04.000 Yeah.

02:20:05.000 How many of these do they have?

02:20:07.000 So they have 8 to 10 of these M-types, these kind of most realistic looking ones. 0.99

02:20:12.000 8 to 10?

02:20:13.000 8 to 10. And then they have 25 to 30 of the J-types. 1.00

02:20:18.000 So, yeah, look at that.

02:20:19.000 That's a 3D reconstruction of the CAT scan.

02:20:22.000 So they have teeth.

02:20:24.000 That's weird.

02:20:25.000 They have teeth.

02:20:25.000 Yeah.

02:20:26.000 They have tendons, they have bones, they have cartilage, they have organs.

02:20:29.000 And then, so this is where we need to verify stuff.

02:20:32.000 They even have actually...

02:20:34.000 Could you go back to the part of the video where...

02:20:37.000 Yeah, that part.

02:20:39.000 What the fuck is that, man?

02:20:41.000 That's crazy.

02:20:42.000 They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century.

02:20:48.000 If this is art, if someone made this, You need to tell me how much this costs.

02:20:57.000 I need to put it on my table because you're a genius.

02:21:00.000 If you've made that and you tricked everybody into thinking that that's real, you're a goddamn genius and you shouldn't just be hoaxing people.

02:21:06.000 So then the alternative is that's real.

02:21:08.000 If that's real, that's completely insane.

02:21:11.000 Joe, fortunately and unfortunately, fortunately for you, maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these Waqueros, these gravediggers, are selling some of these things on the black market.

02:21:20.000 And this case is the Wild Wild West.

02:21:24.000 It is so much.

02:21:26.000 How much?

02:21:27.000 I've heard seven figures.

02:21:27.000 How much did I get one for?

02:21:29.000 Seven figures?

02:21:30.000 I've heard a lot of money.

02:21:32.000 Jeez Louise.

02:21:33.000 Is Peter Thiel buying one of these?

02:21:35.000 Don't say yes.

02:21:38.000 Look at that thing. 0.92

02:21:40.000 It's wild.

02:21:41.000 But there are serious problems.

02:21:41.000 That's so crazy.

02:21:43.000 I want to caveat all of this.

02:21:45.000 I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this.

02:21:49.000 If it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever.

02:21:52.000 My friend Michael Mazzola, who kind of rolled the red carpet down, allowed me to even see these things.

02:21:56.000 He's making a documentary on this that's coming out this August, and it's called This Is Not A Hoax.

02:22:03.000 I told him to put in parentheses.

02:22:06.000 Or this is the most sophisticated hoax ever.

02:22:08.000 Because the DNA testing sucks.

02:22:11.000 The signal-to-noise ratio sucks on the DNA.

02:22:15.000 How come?

02:22:16.000 Because there was probably human contamination.

02:22:20.000 The NCBI, which is this biotech repository where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies, Victoria and Maria.

02:22:31.000 This is all publicly available.

02:22:33.000 They've done analysis on this.

02:22:35.000 The camp that is very pro, you know, these being alien, is this guy Jaime Masson.

02:22:41.000 And he is, I actually think he's awesome.

02:22:45.000 He's like this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico, and he's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of these bodies.

02:22:45.000 I love him.

02:22:52.000 He's very open about, like, we just need more scientific research.

02:22:55.000 You know, he wants more eyes on this thing, but some of the genetics, uh, This guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Ron Hell.

02:23:07.000 And he's a biologist.

02:23:09.000 I don't think he's actually a geneticist.

02:23:11.000 And his belief is like, he was like, this is, you know, there's 30% of this is like unknown DNA that we don't know.

02:23:18.000 And then in the 70%, you have mitochondrial DNA from Myanmar.

02:23:29.000 And you also have bonobos and chimpanzee DNA, which means it was an ancient primate that held this DNA because it was before they phylogenetically split off.

02:23:40.000 So what he's saying, and this is crazy, is he was saying that like a...

02:23:52.000 And because there are some theories that they actually, you know, East Africa is not like the first hominid species.

02:23:56.000 Maybe it was East Asia. 0.53

02:23:57.000 So it's already like kind of requiring some leaps of logic or whatever.

02:24:00.000 And then had sex with this, like, primate thing.

02:24:03.000 And you end up with this hybrid.

02:24:05.000 And then another leap of logic is that before Pizarro and all the conquistadors, like, there's actually, like, transmission of...

02:24:17.000 I don't believe that.

02:24:18.000 It's crazy.

02:24:19.000 It's like saying that, you know, the pangolin theory is better than the, you know, the Wuhan lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor.

02:24:26.000 That's not real.

02:24:27.000 Well, we do know that there were other types of hominids that coexisted with human beings.

02:24:32.000 Denisovans. 0.98

02:24:33.000 Yeah.

02:24:34.000 the Flora's people, the Hobbit people. 1.00

02:24:41.000 carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago, which would actually be Incan.

02:24:49.000 And then all the way down to 1800 years ago, which is the Nazca people. 0.62

02:24:55.000 That's what's fascinating because there's this mystery of the Hobbit people, right?

02:25:01.000 Where they didn't really think that that was – there's a lot of – And then they realize, like, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain, just like Denisovan, just like Neanderthal.

02:25:21.000 There's a thing called the Orang Pendek.

02:25:24.000 Have you ever heard of that?

02:25:25.000 They think, I believe it's Indonesia and maybe Vietnam, where people talk about these little tiny hairy people that live in the jungle.

02:25:25.000 No, what is that?

02:25:34.000 Whoa! 0.71

02:25:36.000 These Flores things, there's a few biologists that believe these things are still alive.

02:25:42.000 They think even on the island of Flores, they might still be alive.

02:25:42.000 Interesting.

02:25:45.000 What?

02:25:46.000 Yeah.

02:25:46.000 Are you serious?

02:25:47.000 Right.

02:25:47.000 So if they're alive, Because there's been things like the coelacanth, which they thought were extinct for millions of years, and then they caught one.

02:25:58.000 And they're like, oh my god, this is a prehistoric fish and it's still alive.

02:26:01.000 And now they know that there's a population of them.

02:26:03.000 But this is the deep ocean, right?

02:26:05.000 Much less explored.

02:26:07.000 But when you look at Indonesia, when you look at Flores, the island of Flores, look at all these places.

02:26:13.000 You're talking about insanely dense vegetation that is virtually uninhabited.

02:26:20.000 Yeah.

02:26:20.000 So, maybe.

02:26:22.000 And these things used to live on that island, for sure.

02:26:25.000 We've got bones.

02:26:26.000 We know they used tools.

02:26:29.000 We know they probably had language.

02:26:31.000 They lived on that island.

02:26:33.000 They might still be alive.

02:26:34.000 So we didn't know about these things.

02:26:36.000 And I think, was it the 90s, I think, when they discovered them?

02:26:40.000 Denisovans, I think, was like 2010.

02:26:43.000 And then this new species, the big-headed people.

02:26:46.000 Were they Juliennes?

02:26:47.000 What do they call them?

02:26:49.000 That's it?

02:26:49.000 That's like a few months ago.

02:26:52.000 Right.

02:26:52.000 They found these.

02:26:53.000 Right.

02:26:54.000 And this is another type of human being.

02:27:05.000 And there are pictoglyphs all over the region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in southern Peru.

02:27:11.000 So this is one that looks fake as fuck.

02:27:14.000 But this guy is driving in his motorcycle.

02:27:17.000 And he's filming, and he claims that he got this thing running away.

02:27:22.000 No way!

02:27:23.000 A little hairy thing? 0.76

02:27:24.000 Yeah.

02:27:25.000 You can see, as he's riding his motorcycle, this thing darts across the road in front of him.

02:27:31.000 And this is a few years ago, too, where, you know, CGI sucked.

02:27:37.000 So there it is.

02:27:38.000 You can see it real briefly for a second.

02:27:40.000 It just runs across the road.

02:27:42.000 Look at that.

02:27:42.000 Oh, my God.

02:27:44.000 What is that?

02:27:44.000 I don't know.

02:27:46.000 If this thing did exist at one point in time, I mean, goddamn, it looks good.

02:27:51.000 If it did exist at one point in time, and people do see it all the time, there might be a small population of them that are still alive.

02:28:00.000 That thing, the x-ray of it, or the MRI, the CAT scan, looked human.

02:28:06.000 But weird.

02:28:07.000 But the teeth and the jaw, it looked like a deformed human. 0.98

02:28:07.000 Yes. 0.98

02:28:10.000 And it is important to note that there were skull elongation rituals going on as early as the Paracas people, which were pre the Nazca people.

02:28:20.000 And what were they imitating?

02:28:21.000 That's the interesting question.

02:28:22.000 The NASCA lines, why are they making...

02:28:29.000 And they're miles long.

02:28:31.000 What are you doing?

02:28:31.000 And they're miles long.

02:28:32.000 And there are pictoglyphs, you know, cave art, all over the region with three-fingered beings, with tridactyl beings.

02:28:40.000 Are there really?

02:28:41.000 There are, and this is the weirdest thing.

02:28:43.000 There's a guy named Thierry Amin who is like the first Westerner. 0.69

02:28:46.000 He's this French kind of...

02:28:51.000 and he was the first guy that met Leandro, the gravedigger who found the bodies to begin with.

02:28:57.000 He cut...

02:29:03.000 He says that the name of the general region means Laboratory for Insemination and Cloning.

02:29:13.000 What?!

02:29:14.000 Yeah.

02:29:15.000 What?!

02:29:15.000 In Kalki, yeah.

02:29:17.000 What?

02:29:17.000 So, like, I need to corroborate this.

02:29:20.000 Like, I don't have the skills to do that.

02:29:21.000 But, like, that's what he says.

02:29:23.000 It's crazy.

02:29:24.000 What the fuck, man?

02:29:26.000 I know.

02:29:27.000 Holy shit.

02:29:28.000 Why this case is such a headache is like there's this guy Steve Mara who I think is a totally...

02:29:34.000 He's one of the less mushy-brained UFO researchers.

02:29:37.000 There's a lot of mushy-brained UFO researchers.

02:29:39.000 Really smart guy.

02:29:40.000 I've, like, quoted him a lot of my other videos.

02:29:42.000 And he's, like, we looked at one of the M-types, one of the bigger ones that, like, I'm still hooding out. 1.00

02:29:47.000 Hope for it.

02:29:48.000 I'd love it to be real.

02:29:49.000 And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanges and one came back male, one came back female.

02:29:57.000 But I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experts?

02:30:00.000 So it's this weird, it's just the DNA stuff, you don't get a good signal.

02:30:04.000 And the reason that nobody even cared, this is the most interesting paleoarchaeological case today, in my opinion.

02:30:11.000 The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023, when these were popularized by Jaime Masson, where he rolled out this J-type Josefina, the one that looked like kind of Close Encounters of the Third Kind, in front of the Mexican Congress.

02:30:23.000 This guy named Manuel Caceras, who is an artist who is making renditions of the things with like wood and sticks and stuff glued together.

02:30:33.000 He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada.

02:30:39.000 And there were Reuters pick this up saying this is all fake because of these fake.

02:30:44.000 And I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with where he goes, this was art.

02:30:48.000 We dub it, but he goes, this was art.

02:30:51.000 It's crazy.

02:30:52.000 So that's the signals crossed.

02:30:54.000 The signals crossed.

02:30:55.000 And I think if there's anything about this case, it's like, let's get our best and brightest on it and figure it out.

02:31:00.000 I think we can figure it out quickly if we had the right research.

02:31:03.000 And there are all these Interpol laws, like you can't move the bodies from Peru.

02:31:08.000 It's crazy.

02:31:08.000 Right.

02:31:09.000 Well, even if it's just a different branch of the human chain, I mean, that...

02:31:18.000 That there's like three-fingered, three-toed people that live.

02:31:18.000 I agree.

02:31:18.000 Fascinating.

02:31:21.000 Totally.

02:31:22.000 With a weird-shaped head.

02:31:23.000 And if you find, if there is phenotypic inheritance where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then at what point do you go, this is the, how can you hoax that?

02:31:35.000 How can you hoax that?

02:31:36.000 That's crazy.

02:31:38.000 Yeah.

02:31:39.000 So, and he's, Zalce, who by the way is the head of the Mexican Medical Navy, he was thrown in jail for supporting this case.

02:31:49.000 Because they were like, we don't want to be associated with this.

02:31:50.000 And now the new Secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back.

02:31:53.000 And he's sort of being vindicated.

02:31:55.000 But he is like, I was like, Jose, like if you showed this CAT scan image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor, they didn't know anything about the case, would they say it had three fingers?

02:32:06.000 He goes, yes.

02:32:09.000 If that's the case, I think that is a big deal.

02:32:11.000 But then you have the Steve Mara thing.

02:32:13.000 I don't want to come out fully.

02:32:15.000 I don't know.

02:32:16.000 Of course.

02:32:18.000 How much evidence would there be?

02:32:22.000 This is the problem with fossils, right?

02:32:25.000 Because when things die, they don't really create fossils unless it's a very extraordinary instance.

02:32:30.000 Something unusual has to occur.

02:32:33.000 You've got to get trapped in mud.

02:32:35.000 Most of the things that have lived, we don't have fossils of.

02:32:39.000 Which is, if this thing was a small percentage or small population, small percentage of the living humans, and some of them are like that, and they just died off like 500 years ago, a thousand years ago.

02:32:52.000 And these ones got saved because they were around a diatomaceous earth mine, which preserved their organs and their whole body.

02:32:58.000 Just from an anthropology perspective, that should be the most fascinating thing.

02:33:01.000 But it's got the stink of a hoax on it, so people don't want to go and study it.

02:33:05.000 Yeah, part of what I almost wanna do is like a nature of reality fund that I tie to the show, And it's like so important for humanity, right?

02:33:22.000 And it's like non-profit.

02:33:23.000 It's just, let's just pay to get the best people.

02:33:25.000 I think one of the problems with modernity is the smartest people are working on the dumbest problems.

02:33:33.000 People are stuck in string theory.

02:33:35.000 We're, like, debating all this dumb shit.

02:33:36.000 And you have these things.

02:33:38.000 I don't know if they're real.

02:33:39.000 You can debunk it.

02:33:40.000 Fine.

02:33:41.000 But if they're real, and it's not 0% that they're real, according to these forensic experts, let's pour some resources into it.

02:33:47.000 Yeah, it might be real.

02:33:49.000 They look real.

02:33:51.000 They look kind of real.

02:33:52.000 They look very real.

02:33:54.000 When I was in person, I was freaking, I was like, what the fuck is that?

02:33:57.000 Like I said, if that's art.

02:33:58.000 Whoever made it is fucking incredible.

02:34:01.000 If that's art, you'd have to have a really deep understanding of anatomy and then alter it.

02:34:08.000 And then make it uniform so you do multiple versions of these things.

02:34:12.000 Go back to that image again, Jamie, the one you just showed me.

02:34:15.000 Look at that head, man.

02:34:17.000 That looks like a fucking alien.

02:34:20.000 It totally looks like, you know.

02:34:22.000 The one other weird wrench that I, He looked at some proteins from an isolated skull of the J-types. 1.00

02:34:38.000 Now, I don't think the J-types, the things that were rolled out from the Mexican Congress, are necessarily real. 1.00

02:34:43.000 I think maybe they were made an homage to these things that do look more real.

02:34:46.000 And he found alpaca proteins on them.

02:34:50.000 And so that's another important point that is a little fly in the ointment here.

02:34:56.000 So somebody probably made fake ones too.

02:34:59.000 But if there's a market where you can get seven figures for a real one, of course someone's going to make some fake ones.

02:35:05.000 Totally.

02:35:05.000 100%.

02:35:06.000 Yeah.

02:35:07.000 But at the end of the day, what is that?

02:35:10.000 And why do they have three fingers?

02:35:11.000 And the Lazar craft...

02:35:18.000 It did, yeah, I think so.

02:35:19.000 And didn't it have three fingers?

02:35:21.000 Oh, I don't know, did it?

02:35:23.000 That would be wild, I don't know.

02:35:24.000 I think it did.

02:35:26.000 Oh my gosh.

02:35:27.000 I think it did.

02:35:28.000 And I think it was really small, just like these things are.

02:35:32.000 We're breaking ground on the Joe Rogan experience.

02:35:34.000 What if that's it?

02:35:36.000 That's crazy.

02:35:37.000 You know, and also, here's the thing.

02:35:39.000 We have this concept of this coming from another planet, but it might not be from another planet.

02:35:43.000 Yeah.

02:35:44.000 It might be from here.

02:35:45.000 Hal Puthoff noted that on your show.

02:35:47.000 He has a paper called the Silurian Hypothesis, which is you have cataclysms like the Younger Dryas Impact, you know, or other things like that.

02:35:55.000 You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, you know, the asteroid impact killed all the dinosaurs or whatever.

02:36:02.000 Break off civilization, just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding.

02:36:06.000 There you go.

02:36:07.000 Right?

02:36:07.000 Like the underground, those tunnels and caverns in Turkey, where they have this immense underground civilization, or city, rather.

02:36:14.000 And it almost felt like maybe they were hiding out from a cataclysm or something.

02:36:18.000 Right.

02:36:18.000 And that's what they think it was.

02:36:20.000 So imagine if there's some break-off civilization where they lived, I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago, but they're different than us.

02:36:20.000 Yeah.

02:36:29.000 And, you know, sometimes they come visit.

02:36:32.000 Could be, man.

02:36:34.000 Which is one of the reasons why they come out of the ocean a lot.

02:36:36.000 Totally.

02:36:37.000 They're transmedium.

02:36:38.000 And, like, in some sense, you would care way more about the nuclear stuff.

02:36:42.000 You'd be like, don't destroy your planet.

02:36:44.000 Don't destroy our planet.

02:36:45.000 We're here.

02:36:46.000 You'll kill us, too, you stupid.

02:36:47.000 Yeah.

02:36:50.000 You're dropping nukes in the ocean, you know?

02:36:53.000 The Marshall Islands test.

02:36:55.000 Yes.

02:36:55.000 Exactly.

02:36:56.000 That's nuts.

02:36:57.000 Really nuts.

02:36:57.000 Yeah.

02:36:58.000 And I think, yeah, there's a whole other rabbit hole.

02:37:00.000 I don't know if you want to get it.

02:37:02.000 See if you can find out if the Bob Lazar ones had handprints.

02:37:06.000 There's a hand scanner he talked about, but it wasn't about three fingers.

02:37:10.000 No, the hand scanner was at Los Alamos.

02:37:14.000 I typed in Bob Lazar UFO three fingers.

02:37:17.000 AI says he has claims.

02:37:19.000 Have nothing to do with aliens.

02:37:20.000 What did he say?

02:37:22.000 the controls for the vehicle.

02:37:27.000 'Cause There's something about putting your hands on something.

02:37:33.000 I believe there's something.

02:37:37.000 Element 115.

02:37:40.000 Didn't it say something about controls?

02:37:43.000 Like that there.

02:37:51.000 Inside of craft.

02:37:55.000 So that's Jeremy Corbell outlines.

02:37:57.000 I can skip through that real quick.

02:37:59.000 God, I want to say that they had three fingers.

02:38:04.000 That would be wild.

02:38:06.000 That would be fucking insane.

02:38:07.000 Because they're tiny.

02:38:09.000 They have three fingers.

02:38:10.000 That's these things.

02:38:11.000 He said the seats were very small.

02:38:12.000 Yeah.

02:38:13.000 They're supposed to be like three feet tall or four feet tall.

02:38:15.000 That's these things.

02:38:16.000 There you go.

02:38:17.000 That's these things.

02:38:17.000 Yeah.

02:38:18.000 And they're in the cave art.

02:38:19.000 It looks like they're flying.

02:38:21.000 It's like hard to say because it's on caves or whatever.

02:38:23.000 I want to see that too.

02:38:24.000 Yeah.

02:38:24.000 Yeah, you can do tridactyl cave art.

02:38:27.000 God, how weird.

02:38:29.000 And how old is this cave art?

02:38:31.000 I think it dates to the Nazca period.

02:38:33.000 So around that time.

02:38:34.000 See, let's look up that first.

02:38:36.000 You did?

02:38:38.000 Tridactyl cave art.

02:38:40.000 How weird.

02:38:42.000 It's all so fucking weird, man.

02:38:45.000 Yeah, it's so weird.

02:38:46.000 It's so weird.

02:38:47.000 It's almost like reality's fucking with you.

02:38:50.000 Yeah, it is.

02:38:53.000 And you have, like, the Amazon is...

02:38:53.000 It is.

02:38:59.000 There's a couple there.

02:39:00.000 Oh, there's a four.

02:39:01.000 There's one there.

02:39:02.000 There's three.

02:39:03.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:39:04.000 Whoa.

02:39:05.000 Three fingers and three toes.

02:39:07.000 That's crazy.

02:39:09.000 Textile fragments.

02:39:12.000 Wow.

02:39:13.000 Circa 1000 AD.

02:39:15.000 Whoa.

02:39:16.000 Yeah.

02:39:17.000 Three fingers, three toes, big crazy head, weird eyes.

02:39:21.000 How fucking strange, man.

02:39:24.000 So nuts.

02:39:25.000 There's so much we don't know and everyone's scared of being ridiculous.

02:39:28.000 I know.

02:39:29.000 You know, everyone's scared.

02:39:30.000 It's one of the great things about what you do and what I do is we don't have to worry about being ridiculous.

02:39:35.000 Because we just are.

02:39:35.000 Totally.

02:39:36.000 Yeah, and we don't have to be like, we have credentials.

02:39:38.000 Right, right, right, right.

02:39:39.000 We don't have to worry about being taken seriously.

02:39:41.000 Yeah.

02:39:42.000 Because so many people do worry about it and they don't want to stick their neck out.

02:39:46.000 But when you see something like this, the three fingers, three toes artwork from a thousand fucking years ago.

02:39:51.000 Yeah.

02:39:52.000 And it looks really weird.

02:39:53.000 And then you see these things.

02:39:55.000 You're like, hey, is that real?

02:39:56.000 Totally.

02:39:57.000 And discoveries require boldness.

02:39:59.000 They require, like, just going for it.

02:40:02.000 And it's, yeah, it's this, like, kind of nitpicky credentialism of, like, I can't say anything other than the established wisdom.

02:40:10.000 What is your incremental addition, then, to human knowledge?

02:40:15.000 And when Will you give in?

02:40:15.000 Right.

02:40:22.000 Or will you just dig your heels in forever and claim bullshit till you drop off to face the earth?

02:40:28.000 What's going on with Egypt?

02:40:31.000 When I had Zahi Hawass on, and he's just completely unwilling to look at that, what is it, tomography?

02:40:39.000 The data that shows that there might be something underneath the pyramids.

02:40:43.000 This is bullshit.

02:40:45.000 Are you sure?

02:40:45.000 Is it?

02:40:46.000 How do you know?

02:40:47.000 You don't even understand the science.

02:40:49.000 How could you possibly know?

02:40:50.000 No first principles arguments around it.

02:40:53.000 It's just, no, it can't be, or whatever.

02:40:57.000 It's politics.

02:40:59.000 Science is supposed to be the most immune from politics, and it's the most political thing.

02:41:04.000 Isn't that weird?

02:41:04.000 It is weird.

02:41:05.000 When you find that out, it's so disappointing.

02:41:07.000 It's so disillusioning.

02:41:09.000 Totally.

02:41:09.000 And then when you have these scientists that dismiss people, and they immediately start using Look at this one.

02:41:16.000 That's so wild.

02:41:18.000 Whatever that thing is around it has one arm with three, and then one arm with three, and one foot with three, and one foot with three.

02:41:25.000 This one's inside of it.

02:41:26.000 What is that supposed to be representing?

02:41:29.000 Two heads? 0.71

02:41:30.000 I don't know.

02:41:31.000 There's a couple other things on the other page.

02:41:32.000 Two-headed cats.

02:41:34.000 Maybe two heads, but no eyes.

02:41:35.000 How weird is that?

02:41:36.000 What is that?

02:41:37.000 Big eye, one eye here, one eye here.

02:41:40.000 Or maybe that's it inside something that it controls.

02:41:44.000 You know what I'm saying?

02:41:45.000 A little sports model.

02:41:47.000 Right.

02:41:47.000 What's showing the fingers, meaning the fingers are what operates this thing.

02:41:52.000 What are you seeing?

02:41:54.000 This is so nuts, man.

02:41:56.000 It's so crazy.

02:41:57.000 All three fingers.

02:41:58.000 What are the fucking odds of that?

02:42:00.000 What are the odds that this is a thousand years old, these images and these textiles, and then you find...

02:42:07.000 Totally.

02:42:08.000 Like, what?

02:42:09.000 And it's in the mythology.

02:42:10.000 Right.

02:42:10.000 What the fuck is going on, man?

02:42:12.000 I know.

02:42:13.000 It's so frustrating, Jesse.

02:42:14.000 I'm with you, man.

02:42:16.000 And the Amazon is the size of the Indian subcontinent.

02:42:19.000 We have to, like, LiDAR it.

02:42:20.000 Right.

02:42:21.000 We're finding cities every day.

02:42:23.000 We need to do the research.

02:42:23.000 Right.

02:42:26.000 Yeah, we do.

02:42:27.000 We do.

02:42:28.000 Look at more of these.

02:42:29.000 More three-finger ones.

02:42:30.000 God, so weird.

02:42:32.000 They're different, too.

02:42:33.000 Yeah, so weird.

02:42:36.000 Almost that weird bird that we looked at the other day with Luke.

02:42:39.000 Yeah, it does.

02:42:41.000 That was on a petroglyph.

02:42:43.000 Yeah.

02:42:44.000 And Luke, who hopefully will be an amazing guest on your show.

02:42:49.000 He's been on.

02:42:49.000 I know.

02:42:50.000 He was amazing.

02:42:51.000 Yeah, awesome.

02:42:51.000 He was fantastic.

02:42:52.000 He was so good.

02:42:53.000 He will say, like, he's been everywhere, right?

02:42:56.000 And he's always like, Peru is the weirdest place I always go. 1.00

02:43:00.000 Really?

02:43:03.000 Well, dude, thank you so much for coming in.

02:43:03.000 Yeah.

02:43:06.000 I fucking love your show.

02:43:07.000 It's so good.

02:43:08.000 It's excellent.

02:43:09.000 American Alchemy.

02:43:09.000 It's on YouTube.

02:43:11.000 Is it just Jesse Michaels on YouTube?

02:43:13.000 Like, how do they find the channel?

02:43:14.000 Jesse Michaels on YouTube.

02:43:15.000 I have a WAP, which is where we...

02:43:17.000 It's called WHOP.

02:43:18.000 It's an amazing place where we facilitate discussions about...

02:43:23.000 How do you have time for all this?

02:43:24.000 I don't know.

02:43:25.000 I don't sleep.

02:43:26.000 I mean, this must absorb, because your stuff is really well produced.

02:43:29.000 Thank you.

02:43:30.000 It must take an enormous amount of time to edit all that.

02:43:32.000 Honestly, I'm burnt out.

02:43:35.000 Listen, I'm glad you're doing it.

02:43:37.000 I really appreciate you.

02:43:38.000 I appreciate you.

02:43:39.000 Everybody, go watch it.

02:43:40.000 Go check out the channel.

02:43:41.000 If they want to find you on social media, what is your...

02:43:41.000 It's fantastic.

02:43:48.000 No A. Michael's with no A. Thank you.

02:43:50.000 It's a vein of my existence.

02:43:52.000 Oh, is it?

02:43:52.000 Yeah, I'm sure.

02:43:53.000 Roll call back in the day.

02:43:56.000 All right.

02:43:56.000 Well, thank you so much.

02:43:57.000 It was fun.

02:43:58.000 Let's do it again sometime when more shit's going to come out, hopefully.

02:43:58.000 Joe, I appreciate you, man.

02:44:01.000 Let's do it.

02:44:02.000 All right.

02:44:03.000 All right.

02:44:03.000 Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - June 03, 2025

Joe Rogan Experience #2331 - Jesse Michels

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