The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2384 - Mark Kerr

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:05.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

00:00:09.000 We'll be right back.

00:00:12.000 Good.

00:00:12.000 Mark.

00:00:15.000 Dude, the movie's fantastic.

00:00:16.000 And I told you outside, but I wanted to save it.

00:00:19.000 Uh when I kind of have a had a little bit of a prejudice when I went to see the movie, I was like, okay, it's gonna be an MMA movie.

00:00:26.000 Yeah.

00:00:26.000 But it's not, it's a movie that happens to be about MMA, but it's a great movie.

00:00:31.000 Oh, I appreciate it.

00:00:32.000 It's really good, man.

00:00:34.000 It's it's like, you know, it's very gripping, and the performances are fantastic, and the way the rock did you was nuts.

00:00:43.000 I like I can't explain it.

00:00:46.000 It's I I keep using the word surreal, but it doesn't describe it.

00:00:50.000 Um like I was saying that my son when he watched it, and just flipping out, like talking to me, like on the side, like I was saying, like literally, just going, Dad, dad, he's got your mannerisms, he's got your speech manner.

00:01:05.000 But you imagine, like I'm I'm picturing my son, he's in New York when he watched it.

00:01:10.000 Right.

00:01:10.000 And so I'm picturing him in the corner of the lobby of the theater, talking with his back to everybody, going, Oh my god, Dad, like it's like a doppelganger.

00:01:20.000 He's got all of it, you know, like full blown, like it was like the the the lot of my saying for myself is I'm it I can't see the force through the trees.

00:01:30.000 I'm in the middle of it, am I looking at it objectively?

00:01:32.000 Am I really looking at or am I seeing something and to hear my son say, Oh my gosh, dad, he nailed it.

00:01:37.000 Right.

00:01:38.000 No, unbelievable.

00:01:39.000 He really did nail it.

00:01:40.000 I like we were saying in the lobby, like I didn't know the rock could act that well.

00:01:44.000 You know, it's really good acting, it's not like blockbuster movie acting, which is he's great at that, but it's it's a different thing.

00:01:52.000 It's compl so with DJ, I kept trying to say to him, you don't have to do this, dude.

00:01:59.000 Like you don't have to do this.

00:02:00.000 And he would he would stop me and he would go, Yeah, I do.

00:02:05.000 What do you mean by you don't have to do this?

00:02:06.000 So meaning that like he's at a leading me.

00:02:09.000 He's at a place in his life where he can just keep doing blockbusters and be perfectly fine with it.

00:02:14.000 There's there it I mean, he says it himself.

00:02:16.000 There's always a place for that.

00:02:18.000 There's always gonna be a place for blockbuster movies and and for that, but he needed to do something different.

00:02:25.000 He needed to do something different.

00:02:27.000 Well, it's the perfect role if you want to do something different for him because it's a very complex role, and it's about a giant dude.

00:02:36.000 Yeah, and that's him.

00:02:38.000 Yeah, so it's like really like the perfect way.

00:02:41.000 Because otherwise, if you're built like he is, it's very hard to get work as a serious actor.

00:02:47.000 This might be like the only opportunity to show people like, hey, I can actually act.

00:02:52.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:53.000 I mean, I think he did it.

00:02:55.000 He did it.

00:02:55.000 He did an amazing job.

00:02:56.000 I mean, too.

00:02:57.000 Amazing to the point where like Emily, unbelievable.

00:03:02.000 She's great.

00:03:03.000 She plays such a crazy bitch. 1.00

00:03:04.000 Oh my god, man.

00:03:06.000 She's so good at it. 0.92

00:03:08.000 Oh my god, she's so good at playing crazy. 1.00

00:03:10.000 Oh my god.

00:03:11.000 It gave me anxiety.

00:03:12.000 Like some of the sometimes, like when you're getting ready to fight, she's starting arguments.

00:03:16.000 I'm like, oh my god, I'm getting anxiety.

00:03:22.000 So here's what was he so it vet, so I saw a a 80% complete version of the film in January of this year.

00:03:32.000 And then um, and then the first time I see a complete version of it was in Venice.

00:03:37.000 And so I'm in Venice, and there's Benny on my right, and there's DJ on my left, and there's Emily next to uh DJ.

00:03:45.000 And the last scene of the movie, right?

00:03:48.000 That intensity of that scene, I'm just telling you, it was like I I said it was therapy for me.

00:03:56.000 Because I think for the first time I could actually I could actually see my part in it.

00:04:02.000 Like I could see my part, how fucking hard I was on the people around me.

00:04:06.000 You know, how just singularly driven I was to accomplish something at at all cost.

00:04:14.000 And the person that paid it the most was Dawn.

00:04:17.000 She paid a heavy price, you know, and you know, anybody that's successful, you know, for me, I was trying to raise everybody up, you know, everybody around me.

00:04:26.000 And it was just his selfish endeavor, and I could see it in those moments.

00:04:30.000 I could see it in what who DJ was, you know, and who Emily was in the intensity of it.

00:04:35.000 I was like, fuck.

00:04:37.000 Well, it's such a crazy task to try to be an elite MMA fighter at a time where there was no no one even knew what it was.

00:04:46.000 No.

00:04:47.000 I mean, you when you first said I met you in 97.

00:04:50.000 There's a crazy photo of us together.

00:04:52.000 I saw that.

00:04:54.000 Dude, 97, that's like 30 years ago almost.

00:04:57.000 Isn't that nuts?

00:04:59.000 So this is what's fucking crazy.

00:05:00.000 So trying to describe what I did back then, like people their jaws would hang open.

00:05:06.000 Right.

00:05:06.000 They would go, you do what?

00:05:08.000 Like, why would you do that?

00:05:09.000 That's us.

00:05:12.000 1997, dude.

00:05:14.000 That's so crazy.

00:05:15.000 Oh my God.

00:05:17.000 So crazy.

00:05:18.000 Oh my God.

00:05:19.000 So were they even paying you back then?

00:05:21.000 A little bit.

00:05:22.000 They paid me a little bit.

00:05:23.000 Oh my god.

00:05:23.000 It wasn't a lot of money.

00:05:24.000 But it was for me, it was just for fun.

00:05:26.000 It's like uh I was a giant fan of the sport, and what happened was Campbell McLaren.

00:05:31.000 Do you remember Campbell?

00:05:32.000 Yeah.

00:05:32.000 Um, he he was good friends with my manager, Jeff.

00:05:37.000 And uh they were just talking, and he said, uh, we need a guy to do backstage interviews, uh, post-fight interviews.

00:05:43.000 And he goes, Joe really loves the sport.

00:05:45.000 He's like, really?

00:05:46.000 He goes like, oh yeah, he follows all the fights in Japan.

00:05:49.000 And he's like, and so for me it was just fun.

00:05:52.000 I mean, it was it wasn't, it was actually costing me money, which is why I wind up quitting.

00:05:56.000 Because I quit and I did it for like a year and a half, two years, maybe, and then in 98, I was like, I can't do this anymore.

00:06:02.000 I'm just it's just actually costing me money.

00:06:04.000 And so then when I um started doing Fear Factor, that's when Zufa bought it, I went up working for them again.

00:06:11.000 But in those days, it was it was for me, it was a dream because as a lifelong martial artist, when I was a kid, there was always the big question, what was the best style?

00:06:22.000 And no one knew until Hory and Gracie put it all together and decided to create the UFC, and then all of a sudden we get to see it, and then obviously you had Japan Valley Tuto and then Pride and all these big events over in Japan, and and it it became to me, it was like finally someone did it.

00:06:40.000 That was so part of my first fights in Brazil, I was still uh brainwashed by the idea that oh shit, he's seven foot tall or six nine, he's the toughest dude in the room.

00:06:51.000 Right.

00:06:52.000 Cause you because you I because that's how I grew up, right?

00:06:54.000 Or 10th degree black belt, same thing.

00:06:56.000 Right, right, right.

00:06:56.000 Oh no, no, no, you know, don't mess with him.

00:06:58.000 Yeah, and then one where that first time I fought, I was still under the delusion that that was the truth.

00:07:07.000 And so my trainer kept going, uh trust me, you're gonna you're gonna do fine.

00:07:12.000 Trust me, you're gonna do fine.

00:07:14.000 And it's just like he understood what what what I was as a wrestler, you know, that I can impose, like I said to tell you the def best definition I've ever had for a wrestler is I can hold a grown ass man where he doesn't want to be held for as long as I want to hold him there, and he can't do a fucking thing about it.

00:07:30.000 Exactly.

00:07:30.000 That's a wrestler, and you can dictate where the fight takes place always.

00:07:34.000 So if you come a wrestler like Chuck Liddell, yeah, then you say, No, no, no, you can't take me down, so I'm just gonna beat the fuck out of you standing, and there's nothing you could do about it.

00:07:43.000 Not not a single thing, it's the most important skill.

00:07:46.000 Oh my god, it's foundational, and and that's why there's so much success for for the deck.

00:07:53.000 Um I'm gonna blank on the names, but uh the wrestlers are it's a resurgence of like really what a foundational piece it is, yeah, and how important it is when you have a high high you know what they're able to do too as a wrestler.

00:08:09.000 I used to look at the Russian wrestlers and go, what makes them so good?

00:08:13.000 They could flurry in succession more times than I could, like Kurt Angle, right?

00:08:20.000 When I wrestled against Kurt, Kurt trained at a level that I wasn't training at.

00:08:25.000 He could sustain a flurry to the point where I would just make mistakes, right?

00:08:30.000 Because I would be to exhaustion, and you watch him, these they'll string these moves together and string them together.

00:08:36.000 Like Hamza Chamaya's great extra.

00:08:37.000 Oh my god, unbelievable example of that.

00:08:39.000 Unbelievable because you'll see you'll see him shoot, reshoot, shoot again, get up, stand up, fake, shoot again, and you can't keep up with it.

00:08:49.000 Yep.

00:08:49.000 You just and inevitably you just make mistakes or you just give in to the exhaustion of the moment, right?

00:08:54.000 Yeah, and it's just like okay, nothing you can do about it.

00:08:58.000 When a guy has an ex insane Cardio with those kind of skills, it is the toughest combination to be.

00:09:04.000 Like Kane Velasquez in his prime.

00:09:06.000 Oh my god, insane cardio, elite wrestling, and then elite MMA stand-up skills as well.

00:09:12.000 Like get everything.

00:09:13.000 Scary.

00:09:14.000 The cardio is the scariest thing.

00:09:16.000 When you're scared to hit the gas, like three more minutes in the round, and you see Kane is just fucking bob bombing around.

00:09:23.000 Like he's not even breathing heavy in between rounds, the stomach's not even heaving.

00:09:26.000 He's a big dude.

00:09:27.000 He's 240, and he's not even tired.

00:09:29.000 It doesn't make any sense.

00:09:30.000 Yeah.

00:09:30.000 It defies logic.

00:09:32.000 But there's guys like that that have that fucking insane cardio.

00:09:36.000 You know, I mean, I don't know how much you follow in the UFC, but this is kid Anthony Hernandez in the middleweight division.

00:09:41.000 That's nuts.

00:09:41.000 And then you got Mirab, Rob Dobish Willie, who's like the best example of it.

00:09:46.000 Unstoppable.

00:09:47.000 So this is kind of again one of these things where where there's certain athletes that have a gear that nobody else has.

00:09:55.000 Yeah.

00:09:56.000 Yeah.

00:09:56.000 And it's just how they're built.

00:09:58.000 It's just how they're built.

00:09:59.000 Well, I remember when you came along and when Coleman came along, all of a sudden everybody's like, I gotta get on steroids.

00:10:05.000 Yeah.

00:10:05.000 Oh my god.

00:10:06.000 But he's like, I gotta get bigger.

00:10:08.000 I gotta get bigger.

00:10:09.000 That's what Vitor got up to like 240 pounds.

00:10:11.000 He was big, he was big.

00:10:12.000 Way too big for his frame.

00:10:14.000 I mean, you're talking about a guy who eventually won up fighting at 185.

00:10:17.000 Yeah.

00:10:17.000 Right.

00:10:17.000 I mean, he finished his career up at 85, and he was there at 240 when he fought Randy the first time.

00:10:23.000 Yeah.

00:10:24.000 Which was bananas.

00:10:25.000 So that night was my last UFC.

00:10:28.000 That was UFC 15.

00:10:29.000 Ah, wow.

00:10:30.000 And that's when Randy beat Vitor.

00:10:33.000 Mm-hmm.

00:10:34.000 And it was one of those where I'm like, oh, just wait.

00:10:37.000 I know because I know what Randy is.

00:10:38.000 Right.

00:10:39.000 Randy's cardio.

00:10:40.000 Randy goes like he can take it.

00:10:42.000 And he it was one of those things where I was like, I don't think Victor's gonna win.

00:10:46.000 Right.

00:10:47.000 It's just that.

00:10:47.000 And that's what we call him back then.

00:10:48.000 His name was Victor.

00:10:49.000 Yeah.

00:10:50.000 When he first came into the UFC, his first fight when he was fighting in Hawaii, he was Victor Gracie.

00:10:57.000 Oh, snap. 0.99

00:10:58.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:10:58.000 He was going by the the last name Gracie.

00:11:01.000 And then I think he got sued or threatened with a lawsuit.

00:11:04.000 And then he changed it to Victor Belper because like Horian was very litigious. 0.81

00:11:09.000 You know, he was like very protective of the Gracie name.

00:11:13.000 And um so he fought John Hess in Hawaii and beat the living shit.

00:11:17.000 Rumble on the Rock stuff or whatever.

00:11:19.000 I don't think it was Rumble on the Rock.

00:11:20.000 That was BJ's promotion, and that was later.

00:11:22.000 This was like really early on.

00:11:25.000 This was uh I don't know who the fuck was doing that event, but uh it was just in a ring, and Vitor came out and blitzed him with punches, and nobody had seen anything like that before.

00:11:34.000 Like, oh god, this is a because everybody thought Brazilian jujitsu black belt, yeah.

00:11:38.000 You need to think you're gonna have a guy who has hands like that.

00:11:41.000 Oh my god, his hand speed was unreal.

00:11:43.000 He was so fast, unreal and accurate.

00:11:46.000 Yeah.

00:11:46.000 Like you can be fast, and that's one thing, but fast and actually hitting the target when the target's bobbin and weaving, it's like, oh my god, man.

00:11:53.000 He's an interesting case study because he's uh like first of all, pioneer, right?

00:11:59.000 First fought in the UFC when he was 19 years old.

00:12:01.000 Crazy.

00:12:02.000 And you know, went through, won the tournament at 19, which is just bananas.

00:12:06.000 And then when we got to see him kind of he got off the sauce and his body kind of faded out, and then they brought back testosterone replacement, and then when testosterone replacement came in, all the sudden it was TRT Vitor, and he was the scariest motherfucker alive for like five fights or whatever it was before they killed the TRT exemptions, and then it all went away for him.

00:12:33.000 It's just like that should be a commercial for testosterone replacement.

00:12:36.000 Yeah, I mean, it really could be.

00:12:38.000 You know, part you know, back then, because there was so much myth surrounding mixed martial arts that you felt like if you didn't do something, it was like the saying is like oh, you're going to a gunfight with a knife, right?

00:12:51.000 It was that type of mentality back then.

00:12:54.000 Well, it's also everyone was on it and there was no testing.

00:12:57.000 Yep.

00:12:57.000 Yeah.

00:12:58.000 And in fact, in Pride, when Ensign was on the podcast, he told me that in large letters it said, We do not test for skills.

00:13:04.000 Yeah, oh my god.

00:13:05.000 They're like, Yeah.

00:13:07.000 So they would literally they would do this.

00:13:10.000 They would hand you a cup and go, urine.

00:13:13.000 And you go, uh, who's clean?

00:13:16.000 You just looked around and you just you just hand the cup off going, I can you piss from here. 0.54

00:13:23.000 And you literally walk back to the medical and go, here's the P. Yeah.

00:13:28.000 Here.

00:13:28.000 And I mean that That's the but that's the era it was.

00:13:33.000 So your first fight was in was it in Brazil?

00:13:36.000 In Brazil, yeah.

00:13:37.000 And um the crazy thing is they reproduced that arena, that that conference room perfectly.

00:13:44.000 Yeah.

00:13:45.000 Like because I saw your first fight.

00:13:46.000 I saw all those early fights.

00:13:48.000 And then to see that in like the movie, I was like, oh, they did it.

00:13:52.000 This is perfect.

00:13:53.000 Yeah.

00:13:54.000 Because you know, sometimes they fudge a little.

00:13:56.000 You know, they so here's what so I was in Vancouver for the set when they had the setup, and I I was sitting there, I was laughing with Benny about it, going, All right, who came up with the pyramid in the door opening with fog machines?

00:14:12.000 Because it's like I can't even imagine the brainstorm going, you got any bright ideas of how to introduce the yeah, let's do a pyramid and let's have a trapdoor fall.

00:14:22.000 It's like what the fuck?

00:14:23.000 Where like where in the bigger picture of stuff would go on, but they reproduced it to the T. It was perfect.

00:14:30.000 Oh my god, it was amazing.

00:14:32.000 It was really great because in in the movie they did about Mark Schultz, what was that movie again?

00:14:36.000 Um fucking Fox catching it.

00:14:43.000 That's right.

00:14:43.000 That that movie had a lot of shenanigans in it.

00:14:46.000 There was a lot of stuff that wasn't.

00:14:47.000 Wasn't accurate to it.

00:14:48.000 It wasn't accurate.

00:14:49.000 Yeah, like he fought Big Daddy Goodrich in his one MMA fight, but in the movie, he's fighting some Russian dude.

00:14:56.000 Didn't make any sense.

00:14:57.000 No.

00:14:57.000 Completely different cat.

00:14:59.000 Fought a white guy in the movie.

00:15:00.000 Wow.

00:15:00.000 Yeah.

00:15:01.000 You fought Big Daddy Goodrich and Big Daddy was wearing the gi.

00:15:04.000 Like wow.

00:15:05.000 Yeah, remember?

00:15:06.000 I mean, not only that, but it was uh Big Daddy Goodridge is a legend.

00:15:09.000 Yeah.

00:15:10.000 Like, how do you leave him out when that was his only MMA fight?

00:15:15.000 Like, why did you change the guy he fought?

00:15:17.000 That doesn't even make any sense.

00:15:19.000 But they just did Hollywood shenanigans. 0.96

00:15:21.000 Yo, uh so you know that was a huge part from the beginning of this when when DJ and I DJ and I talked back in 2019 is just the like the trust factor.

00:15:32.000 You guys started talking about this in 2019.

00:15:35.000 Wow.

00:15:36.000 Six fucking years.

00:15:37.000 Yeah.

00:15:38.000 Yeah.

00:15:38.000 Wow.

00:15:39.000 Here's what's crazy.

00:15:40.000 So he says, hey, you know, we're gonna move forward with this.

00:15:45.000 And and I so for me, I hadn't even thought about any of this.

00:15:50.000 Like it being a movie, it he wants to play me in a movie, and he goes, I'm gonna make the announcement.

00:15:57.000 Madison Square Garden at the BMF belt.

00:16:00.000 He goes, This we had this beautiful conversation, and it was just like this, do you trust me?

00:16:05.000 And it was like, Yeah, yeah, I do.

00:16:09.000 He's a fucking great dude.

00:16:10.000 Oh my god, solid.

00:16:11.000 He's by the way, he says, say hi.

00:16:13.000 He left me a great message on the way over here.

00:16:15.000 I was listening to him and he's just he's he's a rare human being.

00:16:19.000 He is.

00:16:20.000 I'm gonna I'm gonna call him after this just to tell him what a fucking amazing job he did.

00:16:24.000 Because I wanted to watch it right before I saw you.

00:16:27.000 Okay.

00:16:27.000 So I watched it today.

00:16:29.000 And I was like, God damn, this is a good movie, man.

00:16:32.000 And I just I was just blown away by how well he captured the chaos of the pride organization, all the the weirdness of the contract negotiations, everything.

00:16:43.000 Off uh so Benny from the beginning said the only way we're gonna be able to do this is have that authenticity to the point where I sent them watches, rings, necklaces, posters, everything I could find, picture-wise, everything to their props in production.

00:17:05.000 Oh wow and they reproduced everything.

00:17:08.000 Uh wow.

00:17:10.000 So Joe, and when I I mean, like when I went up to Vancouver, like and walked into some of these sets, like literally going, Holy fucking shit.

00:17:21.000 Did he flash back?

00:17:22.000 Oh my god, like like you'd walk into a room and there there'd be from one corner all the way to the other on the wall, just pictures of me and my house and my this and this outfit and this and these in my house and this and and then production saying, okay, was this accurate?

00:17:37.000 How did this it was this it was this unbelievable painstaking they rebuilt my life 25 years ago?

00:17:46.000 So when DJ got into care got into me, he actually was that was he was me.

00:17:52.000 Wow.

00:17:53.000 Yeah.

00:17:54.000 It seemed like it, man.

00:17:55.000 I mean, it really did because you know it's just It's hard when a guy's so famous to pretend that he's someone else.

00:18:04.000 Yeah.

00:18:05.000 He has to like be really good to get you convinced.

00:18:08.000 And I was all in.

00:18:09.000 I was all in.

00:18:10.000 So first time I saw him in uh in uh Vancouver, like nobody told me nobody said, Hey, listen, we're gonna do prosthetics, we're gonna give me your cauliflower ear, we're gonna make his brow, and then nobody told me this.

00:18:23.000 So I was up there for fight week, and uh they're getting ready to shoot uh the scene where they're introducing everybody to the finalist for the Grand Prix, and so DJ's the last one to walk in, and I'm watching the ring.

00:18:35.000 I don't know he's behind me.

00:18:37.000 And I turn around and it's like this like I see him as me, like this is Joe.

00:18:44.000 This is what I did.

00:18:44.000 I'm like, fuck you, like fuck you.

00:18:49.000 Like, oh my god, and it's this moment where I'm looking at him, and I'm I'm looking at my like myself.

00:18:56.000 Yeah.

00:18:57.000 I could still see him in there, but I'm like looking at a like a mirror picture myself, and it's this experience where I'm like, oh my god, man, like wow, like you like you're going, like this is you going to a place that nobody even thought you could get to.

00:19:17.000 Right.

00:19:18.000 Like it was it was incredible.

00:19:21.000 Well, you're you're such an important part of the history of MMA that I think this movie did that, it really honored that.

00:19:29.000 It really did it justice because at the end of the movie when it talks about how fighters today make millions of dollars.

00:19:38.000 Go on, I'm sorry.

00:19:39.000 No, it's okay.

00:19:39.000 It's like but that you guys paved the way.

00:19:42.000 If it wasn't for you guys, just doing it for very little money, like barely getting by.

00:19:47.000 Putting your whole life on the line, yeah, and barely getting by.

00:19:50.000 Oh, and I love that you had Alexander Usyk.

00:19:53.000 Oh my god, is he?

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00:20:58.000 That was amazing.

00:21:00.000 So Megny signed him before he beat, before he became the undisputed champ.

00:21:05.000 Oh, wow.

00:21:06.000 Right.

00:21:06.000 2019.

00:21:07.000 Yeah.

00:21:08.000 Wow.

00:21:08.000 So so it's one of those things where um everything just kind of lined up in a way where you're like, all right, this is like this is Manifest Destiny, right?

00:21:19.000 This is like this is like Joe Dispenza.

00:21:21.000 You know, like really like you're like you're really tapping into something that's bigger, because it's pulled all these people together.

00:21:29.000 Uzek did a great job.

00:21:30.000 Oh, he didn't move like oh my god, he did that spinning back.

00:21:34.000 Like Jesus, I'm like, he's a boxer.

00:21:36.000 He's not supposed to.

00:21:37.000 Yeah, I mean, I didn't even know he could do that.

00:21:39.000 No, neither did I. That's kind of crazy.

00:21:41.000 Yeah.

00:21:42.000 Well, I mean, I guess that guy could kind of do anything.

00:21:44.000 Yeah, God, he's he's you know how many rounds he trained prior to to uh fighting Tyson Fury?

00:21:51.000 No.

00:21:52.000 Six hundred.

00:21:53.000 Jesus.

00:21:54.000 With three different training partners.

00:21:57.000 So every dude came in every third round.

00:22:00.000 He had a fresh guy on him.

00:22:02.000 I know that he was doing 15 rounds a day, and he made a deal with himself that his back touched the ropes, he would have to do another round.

00:22:08.000 An extra round.

00:22:09.000 So he that's one that I didn't hear that, but he he said he would do rounds where he wasn't allowed to punch.

00:22:16.000 Oh wow.

00:22:17.000 At all.

00:22:22.000 Okay, like he he takes he's like one of us.

00:22:26.000 Like he just takes it to a level that is just unbelievable.

00:22:30.000 He's a genius.

00:22:31.000 Like a literal boxing genius.

00:22:32.000 Like, and I don't use that term lightly.

00:22:34.000 Like what he did to Dubois, I was like, oh my God.

00:22:38.000 Because when you see Dubois, when Dubois knocked out Anthony Joshua, you're like, wow, this kid might be the future.

00:22:44.000 Yeah.

00:22:44.000 He is a fucking destroyer.

00:22:46.000 He's seeking destroy, brutal power, giant guy, incredible athlete.

00:22:51.000 And Usak just pieced him up.

00:22:53.000 Dismantled him.

00:22:54.000 Just took him, dismantled him, and took him apart, and did it with all skill.

00:22:58.000 Like, literally, like, understanding.

00:23:01.000 He's not the biggest dude in the world.

00:23:03.000 He's big, but he's not like six-nine, right?

00:23:05.000 No, he's not Tyson Fury size.

00:23:07.000 He's not Dubois size.

00:23:08.000 He's not Dubai's not Tyson Anthony Josh.

00:23:10.000 Josh, none of them.

00:23:11.000 No.

00:23:12.000 No, he's a cruiserweight.

00:23:13.000 Oh.

00:23:14.000 He's a cruiserweight that beat everybody and knew that the only way to make real money is to go up to heavyweight.

00:23:18.000 Yeah.

00:23:18.000 And really have a leave a real legacy.

00:23:21.000 Because he could have been one of those guys that retired as an undefeated cruiserweight, and boxing fans like myself would talk about him, but everybody else would be like, who?

00:23:29.000 Yeah.

00:23:29.000 Meanwhile, now he's in the conversation of one of the greatest.

00:23:32.000 Oh, for sure.

00:23:33.000 Tyson Ali.

00:23:34.000 He's like, he's in there with that conversation.

00:23:37.000 And it it's just consistently an overachiever.

00:23:40.000 Consistently an overachiever.

00:23:42.000 And he's fucking 38.

00:23:43.000 Oh, even crazier.

00:23:45.000 Because it's like he hasn't shown any slipping in his skill level at all.

00:23:49.000 Or his endurance or his enthusiasm or his discipline.

00:23:52.000 None of it.

00:23:53.000 Just well, also it's like he was so fortunate to have been trained by Lomachenko's dad.

00:23:59.000 I didn't know that.

00:24:00.000 Yeah.

00:24:01.000 So he's like a giant Lomachenko.

00:24:03.000 Oh my God.

00:24:03.000 Because Lomachenko's so agile, so much footwork and movement.

00:24:07.000 And that makes sense.

00:24:08.000 He's basically like the heavyweight version of it.

00:24:11.000 Wow.

00:24:12.000 Yeah.

00:24:12.000 That makes actually more sense.

00:24:14.000 Makes more sense, right?

00:24:15.000 Yeah.

00:24:16.000 Because his movement for such a big guy is just extraordinary.

00:24:19.000 It just doesn't exist anywhere else.

00:24:20.000 Because it's not just the light on the feet, it's the angles he takes after punches and then the shifting of the weight back to center when you don't expect it.

00:24:28.000 And then that's like my son.

00:24:31.000 Actually, it's my son's birthday today.

00:24:33.000 Happy birthday.

00:24:34.000 What's Bryce?

00:24:35.000 Happy birthday, Bryce.

00:24:36.000 Yeah.

00:24:37.000 Twenty-one.

00:24:38.000 Right.

00:24:38.000 I go, it's a birthday to wait for, but he's already doing all this stuff that you know.

00:24:45.000 They all did.

00:24:46.000 Yeah, I know, right?

00:24:46.000 It's that it's an age record.

00:24:48.000 But uh so my son loves the science of boxing.

00:24:52.000 You know, even ten years ago when he was like 11, 12 years old, he'd be on YouTube watching the footwork of boxers.

00:24:59.000 And I'm like, I because I didn't get into that science of it and footwork and all that until I started doing MMA.

00:25:06.000 Like understanding, like I understood wrestling, but boxing on that level is just it's a whole nother complex set of skills.

00:25:14.000 Well, you were so deep in wrestling, though, it's almost impossible to pay attention to anything else.

00:25:19.000 At the level that you were competing at, yeah, you have to that has to be everything you eat, breathe, sleep, yeah, singular.

00:25:26.000 Yeah, it has to be singular.

00:25:27.000 Yeah.

00:25:27.000 It has to be.

00:25:28.000 It's almost like you can't go down any rabbit holes.

00:25:31.000 No.

00:25:31.000 And that's one of those where you know, my mentor, the guy that uh that really brought me to another level is a guy named Chris Campbell.

00:25:39.000 He was Dan Gable's first NCAA champ when Dan Gable's coach at Iowa.

00:25:44.000 Um he made the 1980 Olympic team that was boycotted, won the 1981 world championships, voted best technician in the world, and then retires.

00:25:53.000 And then decides he's gonna make the ninety 1992 Olympics in Barcelona.

00:26:00.000 So he's at 37 years old, he wins a bronze medal that year in Barcelona.

00:26:04.000 37.

00:26:05.000 That's pretty impressive.

00:26:06.000 For amateur wrestling.

00:26:07.000 Oh, people do it. 0.54

00:26:08.000 No, that's unheard of.

00:26:09.000 It's I think still to this day, he's the oldest uh Olympic medalist.

00:26:13.000 Wow.

00:26:14.000 Cause you just don't, you just I mean, wrestling's just so demanding to be a good thing.

00:26:18.000 It's such a young sport.

00:26:19.000 Oh, yeah, it is.

00:26:20.000 It is.

00:26:20.000 So he ends up, he ends up, he ends up just really taking me by the hand and and understanding like singular devotion to something.

00:26:31.000 It's he would back then he did tape study, which wasn't a huge, huge deal, but literally watching the Russians wrestle in some of the tapes, his nemesis was this guy Kdartsev.

00:26:43.000 And you look and watch the tapes, and you go, I don't see anything.

00:26:46.000 Once you slowed it down, you go, you can't move him out of position.

00:26:50.000 He doesn't when he attacks and retreats, he's never out of position.

00:26:54.000 And you know, you'd look at it and go, wow.

00:26:58.000 Because it was just these little things, little things that make it.

00:27:01.000 It's amazing that the Russians achieved that level in not just wrestling, but also in MMA, also in any combat sports, name boxing, Russian kickboxers are super technical.

00:27:14.000 They're all known for being so technical.

00:27:16.000 It's really interesting.

00:27:18.000 You know, like and it's and again, I would think that somewhere in there, there's a route.

00:27:22.000 There's a common like there's coaches and mentors.

00:27:30.000 You know, somebody really going, Hey, let me let me show you.

00:27:34.000 And they had a mentor and they had a mentor.

00:27:36.000 It's this lineage that's passed along.

00:27:39.000 Um, and I know I went from being a good wrestler to being a really good wrestler when Chris took me under his wing.

00:27:46.000 You know, we drill the same thing thousands of times, and it would be like the difference between holding my hand here and holding it here, and I'd go, It's two inches.

00:27:55.000 Right.

00:27:56.000 What's the difference?

00:27:56.000 And we go.

00:27:58.000 When you speed it up the full speed, those two inches become six.

00:28:02.000 Right?

00:28:03.000 And so the leverage points.

00:28:05.000 Yeah, and so I need him to be here perfect.

00:28:09.000 Because once you go full speed, you're gonna miss it, but you're only gonna miss it by this much.

00:28:13.000 You know, it's interesting that George St. Pierre, although he never wrestled in high school or college, his training in Montreal was with Russian wrestlers.

00:28:22.000 It was all Russian nationals who had moved to Canada.

00:28:24.000 Yeah.

00:28:25.000 Wow.

00:28:25.000 Yeah.

00:28:26.000 GSP, I was just talking to a friend of mine, and uh I said he's probably in my book one or two.

00:28:33.000 Yeah, of all time.

00:28:34.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:28:35.000 Yeah.

00:28:35.000 He's he's certainly in the conversation.

00:28:36.000 It's so hard to say who, because you know, Mighty Mouse, I think never got the credit that he deserves because he was on 125 or then people forget how good Anderson was when he was in his prime.

00:28:46.000 People and then BJ Penn, BJ Penn when he was in his prime.

00:28:49.000 I feel like you really have to look at a guy when he's redlining, like when he's really at the peak of his abilities.

00:28:57.000 You can't judge him by the fights they fight after their prime.

00:29:00.000 Yeah, you can't because it's not fair.

00:29:02.000 You just gotta say, like who when they were champion, when they were running shit.

00:29:07.000 Yeah, who exhibited a level of MMA that's above and beyond everyone else?

00:29:13.000 And George is certainly in that conversation.

00:29:15.000 Oh, he's for sure I mean part of um part of what I like John Jones, right?

00:29:21.000 Like when you get somebody that's at that level at his peak, right, and he can make other professional fighters look like they're amateurs.

00:29:32.000 They look silly.

00:29:32.000 Yeah, they don't belong in there.

00:29:34.000 And he was doing that to guys when he wasn't training.

00:29:36.000 That was crazy.

00:29:38.000 He was fucking off and barely in the gym and still dominating in world title fights.

00:29:43.000 Sometimes I get a little upset because I'm like, you know how many fights he probably rot as a spectator as a fan.

00:29:50.000 Like how many fights we missed because of his shenanigans.

00:29:53.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:54.000 Just like you know, what happened with you and what happened with him and what happens with a lot of guys is like the pressure of life, sometimes and what makes you a great fighter in the first place, there's a certain wildness.

00:30:09.000 Yeah.

00:30:10.000 And with a guy like John, that wildness, it's like it's hard to keep on a leash.

00:30:14.000 Yeah.

00:30:16.000 Yeah, I know how that feels.

00:30:17.000 Yeah, I'm sure you tell Well, I remember I had no idea.

00:30:22.000 And I don't think anybody had any idea until the Smashing Machine documentary came out.

00:30:26.000 And when that documentary came out, everybody was like, holy shit.

00:30:30.000 First of all, kudos to you for allowing people to see you like that, raw, completely honest about all of the addiction problems, all everything.

00:30:44.000 And no one would have expected it.

00:30:45.000 Then they saw you, they just saw this fucking dominant destroyer, this guy who was like smashing everybody, and you just thought, oh, well, that guy's just uh he's just a machine and just so mentally strong, and he just gets out there and gets it done.

00:30:59.000 And then you allowed them to show you where in the the making of the documentary, it was what they were essentially trying to capture was you at your prime.

00:31:10.000 Yeah.

00:31:10.000 And what they caught you was you where your life was falling apart just fortuitously.

00:31:15.000 Yeah.

00:31:15.000 It was just kind of random luck they caught you at that time.

00:31:19.000 So when uh John Greenhall, who's a producer, uh I went to Syracuse with him.

00:31:26.000 I was we were on the wrestling team together.

00:31:27.000 He's the one that called me, said, Hey, um, I'm gonna do a documentary at that point.

00:31:33.000 My vision of what it was was a little best buy camera where they're like little flip screen and they show up and they go, okay, we're filming a documentary.

00:31:43.000 Hang on, I got changed tape, you know.

00:31:45.000 And they show up in Japan for my Volchanchin fight with two 10,000, 15,000, whatever they were, digital Sony cameras, a boom mic, and like five people.

00:31:59.000 I'm like, oh fuck, you're you're like you're really gonna make a like you're gonna make a documentary.

00:32:06.000 And so he was right from the get go.

00:32:08.000 John could see, John could see what was the contrast, like me as a fighter and me as a person, that contrast.

00:32:17.000 Um, and so that's what he was after is like to to really show this contrast and like you can do this for a living and be this kind sensitive, you know.

00:32:25.000 Well that was what was weird about you.

00:32:26.000 It was a very weird contrast because you're very soft spoken, very kind, always very considerate to people, very nice, and then you get into the cage, and it's like who the fuck is that guy?

00:32:38.000 You know, you know what the feeling is.

00:32:39.000 The feeling is like the question I always had in my head is going, okay.

00:32:43.000 If somebody's gonna go you, me, in a room, who the fuck's coming out?

00:32:47.000 And I never was able to answer that question for myself.

00:32:50.000 I know I was competitive, right?

00:32:52.000 But I didn't know if I had that switch, that thing, and then start fighting and going, oh fuck, man, there's a switch in there.

00:33:00.000 And I figured through that process, what I was really trying to get is your will.

00:33:06.000 I was trying to take your fucking will.

00:33:08.000 And most people don't want to give it.

00:33:11.000 Right.

00:33:11.000 Like when you get a high-level fighter, it's like Fabio Gagell didn't want to give me his will.

00:33:15.000 Headbutted him, dug into cuts, did all this, beat him mercilessly, and he didn't want to give me his will.

00:33:21.000 He wouldn't give it to me.

00:33:23.000 And it frustrated me.

00:33:24.000 I didn't know how to take it from him.

00:33:26.000 I'm going, I'm out of answer.

00:33:28.000 You're waiting for him to break, yeah.

00:33:29.000 He doesn't break.

00:33:30.000 He doesn't break.

00:33:31.000 Yeah, some people don't break.

00:33:32.000 You can break their body, but their will, you can't break.

00:33:35.000 No, he was one of them.

00:33:36.000 He was one of them, and it's just still to this day.

00:33:38.000 I mean, the next day, his wife calls me and I have lunch at his house.

00:33:42.000 Wow.

00:33:43.000 Which was crazy because my first fights don't know.

00:33:47.000 Everybody in the audience was there for him.

00:33:50.000 And uh when his wife calls me in the next day, I I literally go, Oh, fuck, man, here it is.

00:33:56.000 He's gonna have all his boys up at the house.

00:33:58.000 He's gonna fuck he's gonna fucking get his due, right?

00:34:02.000 Like I didn't know.

00:34:03.000 Right.

00:34:04.000 And so I go, okay, what do I got to lose?

00:34:07.000 And so I go up and we sit down just like we're sitting here, and his wife interprets the whole entire time, and it was this it was actually beautiful.

00:34:15.000 It was beautiful because that's awesome.

00:34:17.000 Here's here's what it set for me.

00:34:19.000 It set a standard of how I was gonna carry myself as a fighter.

00:34:25.000 What happened in the ring is in the ring.

00:34:28.000 Right.

00:34:29.000 The second you're out, you're you can that's different.

00:34:33.000 Well, that speaks to his character, why you couldn't break his will in the first place.

00:34:36.000 Right.

00:34:37.000 Absolutely.

00:34:38.000 Because he's such just locked down.

00:34:40.000 Absolutely.

00:34:41.000 It was for me, it was it was one of those like revelations of like, okay, this is this is how you do this.

00:34:49.000 As a professional, yeah.

00:34:50.000 Well, you know, also like Brazil had a much longer history of these kind of fights, like going way back to the Ayleo Gracie days, and this is an ad by better help.

00:35:01.000 When you have a problem, when you're feeling down, it's nice having someone to turn to, like a partner who could cheer you up, a friend to vent to, a parent who can give you advice, even having a nice conversation with a stranger can be uplifting.

00:35:16.000 Whoever you like to turn to, though, probably won't have all the answers.

00:35:21.000 That's where therapy comes in.

00:35:23.000 There are some things that you can get from therapy you can't get anywhere else.

00:35:27.000 Like if you're struggling with anxiety or depression, a therapist can help you develop positive coping skills.

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00:36:20.000 That's better.com slash J R E. I mean culturally understanding way different.

00:36:29.000 And that's like the okay, I'm gonna carry myself.

00:36:32.000 You know, part of it was, you know, I wanted to change the narrative of like when you looked at the early UFCs, it looked like some some guys were just scraped off a bar stool and thrown into the octagon, right?

00:36:48.000 And so when I came there, I was like, okay, I'm gonna be considered professional, right?

00:36:53.000 I'm gonna carry myself as a professional.

00:36:55.000 I'm gonna be articulate, I'm gonna dress as a professional.

00:36:58.000 I'm gonna because I wanted up the ante.

00:37:00.000 I wanted to like raise the standard, right?

00:37:04.000 Especially when I went to Japan.

00:37:05.000 It's like, you know, press conference, everybody's in sweatsuits.

00:37:08.000 I'm in a, you know, I couldn't afford it, but I was in a thousand dollar Calvin Klein suit that I had on a charge card, right?

00:37:16.000 But I wanted to change the narrative.

00:37:18.000 I wanted to be, I wanted to be a professional.

00:37:20.000 Because if I was a professional treaty like a professional, I could ask for pay like a professional.

00:37:26.000 Not like some dude that was just scraped off a bar stool and thrown into a ring.

00:37:30.000 So what was what was the pride experience like?

00:37:32.000 So you you had fought in the UFC and then did you have a contract that expired?

00:37:39.000 Like what happened?

00:37:40.000 So, oh boy, this is so I signed a three-fight tournament deal with the UFC.

00:37:47.000 I did 14 and 15, and I still had one uh tournament obligation on the contract.

00:37:53.000 Um so after 15, the Japanese had seen enough footage, and I got contacted by Pride and they're like, hey, we want to fly you over.

00:38:03.000 We want to um we want to have uh you as a key piece to build this organization.

00:38:10.000 So I'm like, okay.

00:38:11.000 So they fly me first class over, first class hotel.

00:38:14.000 I meet with um, I meet with a guy named Mr. Ishizaka who uh his real name is Kim Duksu.

00:38:22.000 He's a Korean guy.

00:38:23.000 And uh um Mr. Ishii, who owned K1.

00:38:27.000 Wait a minute, a Korean dude was pretending to be Japanese? 0.75

00:38:30.000 You had to have a Japanese name.

00:38:32.000 Whoa.

00:38:33.000 You couldn't do business in Japan without a Japanese name.

00:38:37.000 That's crazy.

00:38:39.000 Signed all of his documents, signed all of his documents, legal documents, Kim Duksu.

00:38:44.000 Wow.

00:38:44.000 But every single person called him Mr. Ishijaka.

00:38:47.000 Wow.

00:38:49.000 So he had to learn Japan Japanese.

00:38:51.000 Yeah.

00:38:52.000 And it's still with an accent because he spoke Korean too.

00:38:55.000 So it's just one of those where understanding like the the culture back then just it was still stuck, you know, and hadn't really progressed.

00:39:04.000 Wow.

00:39:05.000 Um, so Mr. Ishii owned K1 and Mr. Jaka started Pride.

00:39:10.000 And it was called KRS at the beginning before it turned into dream stage.

00:39:14.000 Oh.

00:39:15.000 And so here's here's where it gets a little sticky.

00:39:18.000 So I go over there, I take uh for Pride 2.

00:39:21.000 It's supposed to be me and Hoyce Gracie.

00:39:23.000 Him and I, I there's still fight posters that have signed of him and I facing off with each other, signed the contract to fight for way more money than was being probably paid for the in the UFC.

00:39:36.000 And um when I get back to the States, I get served with uh I get served with papers to appear in court in New York City, the UFC suing me.

00:39:46.000 Um it's when Bob Meyerwitz still owned it and Art Davies was involved.

00:39:50.000 And so they're suing me for breach of contract.

00:39:53.000 And it was like one of those things where I was like, okay, I didn't, you know, like one of those experiences where I was like, oh shit.

00:40:01.000 You know, and the Japanese said, okay, we still want you. 0.98

00:40:04.000 You need to sort this out.

00:40:05.000 So it took it took four months, five months to sort out the differences between what the UFC needed and if they're gonna let me go and all this other stuff, and in that time frame, Hoyce got hurt.

00:40:17.000 And so Hoyce had to step out and they put uh Broncosigate in there, and I ended up fighting Bronco and Pride too.

00:40:24.000 Oh wow.

00:40:25.000 Yeah.

00:40:26.000 So if everything if if everything would have gone as everything, I would have fought Hoyce Gracie in the Tokyo Dome, him and I main event, me at my peak, Hoist still in his prime.

00:40:39.000 Wow.

00:40:40.000 That would have been insane.

00:40:41.000 Oh my God, it would have been like thinking about it going, because people have asked, like, oh and a one.

00:40:46.000 I'm like, I don't fucking know.

00:40:48.000 But I would have given it every single thing I could.

00:40:52.000 That's it.

00:40:52.000 That's the poster.

00:40:54.000 Wow.

00:40:55.000 Yeah.

00:40:56.000 Signed inked everything.

00:40:58.000 You had at least 80 pounds on him.

00:41:01.000 Oh, at least that.

00:41:02.000 Yeah.

00:41:02.000 But but this is it.

00:41:03.000 This is the transition from not knowing what I was getting into, going, I can't fucking carry that much weight at all and be cardiovascularly.

00:41:13.000 I just can't do that.

00:41:14.000 What were you at your heaviest?

00:41:16.000 280, 285.

00:41:19.000 Jeez.

00:41:20.000 Like six percent body fat.

00:41:22.000 Woof.

00:41:22.000 Yeah.

00:41:23.000 That's hard to breathe.

00:41:24.000 Brutal.

00:41:25.000 Like if I didn't if I didn't fucking get a hold of you and fucking squeeze the life out of you in the first like couple minutes, I was fucked.

00:41:32.000 I was completely fucked.

00:41:33.000 You know.

00:41:34.000 Yeah.

00:41:34.000 Well, that was kind of the case with Coleman as well.

00:41:36.000 Like when he was really, really big.

00:41:38.000 I was in the corner when he lost when I was cornering him when he lost to Marie Smith.

00:41:43.000 Oh, okay.

00:41:44.000 Yeah.

00:41:45.000 Yeah, I was there for that one.

00:41:46.000 That was that was uh a real game changer.

00:41:50.000 Oh, that changed the narrative for everything.

00:41:52.000 Because Maurice, what Maurice brought to the game was Maurice was training with Frank Shamark at the time, and so he had extreme cardio.

00:41:59.000 He was doing a lot of swimming, he was running hills.

00:42:02.000 I mean, he was really cardiovascularly at an elite level for an MMA fighter at the time.

00:42:08.000 Frank and I used to talk about heart rate training.

00:42:12.000 Way back when.

00:42:13.000 Like literally like functional training and going, okay, how do how do you how do you approach something and come up with a formula where you can get through a training camp and still be viable at the end of that training camp when you have five minute rounds?

00:42:30.000 Right?

00:42:30.000 How do you do it?

00:42:31.000 There wasn't a formula for it.

00:42:32.000 Right.

00:42:33.000 So Frank was like, I started doing this heart rate training and heart rate recovery and all this stuff, and I was like, oh shit.

00:42:39.000 And then I run into these trainers when I was in California at Gold's Venice.

00:42:43.000 Um, there's a guy named TR Goodman, and he was training hockey players.

00:42:48.000 And hockey players have to have that burst recovery, burst recovery.

00:42:52.000 Wow, very similar cardiovascular system to fighters.

00:42:56.000 So TR took over my training when I was in California, and that was a whole nother level.

00:43:00.000 Because I had never really had the functional training implemented the way he did.

00:43:07.000 And that's when my weight came down.

00:43:08.000 It's like I f really tried to fight between like 230, 235 and 240 was ideal.

00:43:17.000 Yeah, that's much better.

00:43:18.000 That seems like the ideal heavyweight.

00:43:21.000 It is.

00:43:21.000 It is a lot.

00:43:22.000 It's it's very weird that first of all that the heavyweight division has a weight limit.

00:43:26.000 Yeah.

00:43:26.000 That is really weird.

00:43:28.000 Especially the UFC.

00:43:29.000 Yeah.

00:43:29.000 Because it doesn't really in Japan and some other organizations, they'll allow the super heavyweight division.

00:43:33.000 And in boxing, you can be as heavy as you want.

00:43:35.000 Like Tyson Fury's been 290 before.

00:43:37.000 But when the UFC has this 265 pound weight division, it seems like the best elite guys like that 240 range.

00:43:46.000 That's for me, that was like I knew I had a good training camp.

00:43:50.000 If I came in 235, 240, if I didn't train hard enough, I was 250.

00:43:55.000 If I overtrained, I was under 230.

00:43:58.000 You know, like for Pride Grand Prix, I think I weighed in at 229.

00:44:02.000 Because right before you felt overtrained?

00:44:05.000 I felt overtrained because in between uh when I fought Ensign and the Pride Grand Prix, I did Abu Dhabi.

00:44:11.000 Oh I won my weight class that year and I won the all-around.

00:44:16.000 So you got super conditioned.

00:44:18.000 Oh my god, super conditioned, but you you lose I lost a little bit of what I needed was that physical dominance.

00:44:28.000 You know, I could have the endurance, but again, it's one of those where it's like going into it when I fought Fegina, there's so many factors that were just uh, you know, that I didn't account for and my calorie intake just wasn't where it needed to be.

00:44:41.000 And like a lot of times leading up to a fight, like my appetite just diminishes as I get towards it, especially that fight week.

00:44:48.000 And that's interesting.

00:44:50.000 Why do you think that is?

00:44:51.000 Uh nerves, nerves.

00:44:53.000 Right.

00:44:53.000 It gets to a point where it's like that that morning, I know like fight morning.

00:44:57.000 I have a small little window where I could digest food or I could take food in.

00:45:01.000 It's not like I could sit and eat all day.

00:45:04.000 And then it's his nerves start kicking in.

00:45:06.000 It just starts kicking in like my like like literally, and it's controlled focus, right?

00:45:10.000 Because it's like you can't have all my nerves running everywhere, but it's controlled focus.

00:45:14.000 But that controlled focus, my body goes, I don't need digestion.

00:45:18.000 Fuck, I'm about to fight.

00:45:19.000 What the fuck do I need to digest food for?

00:45:21.000 Right, right, right.

00:45:22.000 You know?

00:45:22.000 Yeah, a lot of guys have made those mistakes.

00:45:24.000 Algermain Sterling said he made that mistake when he first fought Piotr Yan.

00:45:27.000 He just he didn't eat.

00:45:29.000 It's brutal.

00:45:30.000 So that so that last scene against Fujita isn't as 100% hypoglycemic crash laying there, can't move my body.

00:45:39.000 And if you watch a documentary, what I'm saying on the way back is I need sugar, I need sugar, I need sugar.

00:45:45.000 I uh that's all I could think about was like I need sugar, I need sugar, I need sugar.

00:45:48.000 Because my blood sugar levels had just crashed to this, like I can't fucking move.

00:45:53.000 Jeez.

00:45:54.000 It's so crazy too to watch the evolution of the training methods from back then from 97 to like what we're seeing today.

00:46:02.000 Yeah, oh incredible.

00:46:04.000 It is really extraordinary because there's not a real another sport that has gone through that much of a metamorphosis.

00:46:10.000 Not even close, really.

00:46:11.000 In that time frame.

00:46:13.000 Because it's a short it's a short time frame because again, it's asking the question of like, okay, championship fight, 25 minutes, five five minute rounds.

00:46:22.000 How do you train for it?

00:46:24.000 Right.

00:46:25.000 Because the reality is no one can go full blast for five, five minute rounds.

00:46:29.000 Can't do it.

00:46:30.000 Maybe Marab can. 0.71

00:46:33.000 I wouldn't fucking doubt that.

00:46:35.000 He might be the one be the only guy because he doesn't seem to get tired.

00:46:40.000 You get so this is this is like observationally, usually in that championship fight, if it's a striker against a wrestler, usually the first two rounds, strikers usually have that advantage.

00:46:50.000 And then third round, if you go back and watch this third round, the grappler starts to impose a little bit more on him.

00:46:57.000 Right.

00:46:57.000 And then fourth take down fourth and fifth round is the grappler completely just takes that fight over because it's one of those things where you it's that grind.

00:47:08.000 Yes.

00:47:08.000 It's that's also fucking grind.

00:47:11.000 You want some coffee?

00:47:12.000 Yeah, a big part of being able to stuff takedowns is having energy.

00:47:15.000 Oh my God, it's everything.

00:47:16.000 The guy's trying to fuck you up and take you down.

00:47:19.000 There's so much energy involved in trying to stuff a takedown and then when you don't have it, you're like, I'm just let him take me down and just like take a break here and then work back to the but no, like with some guys like you're not getting back up.

00:47:30.000 No elbowed in the face.

00:47:32.000 That I'm just gonna grind you into a pulp.

00:47:35.000 And that's that control thing, right?

00:47:37.000 Yeah, part of part of what I I go, like if I look at my fight and go, I was never gonna be the best striker, like never gonna be the best kicker puncher, but if I could turn you into a wrestler, that's that was the secret sauce for me.

00:47:52.000 Yeah.

00:47:52.000 I just need to make you wrestle me.

00:47:54.000 Yeah.

00:47:54.000 And I'm good.

00:47:55.000 Right?

00:47:56.000 Yeah.

00:47:56.000 Because I know I can fucking beat the fuck out of you wrestling.

00:47:59.000 Yeah.

00:48:00.000 The key was tr transitioning to make you wrestle me.

00:48:03.000 Yeah, it's that specialist, specialist thing.

00:48:07.000 It's like if you want to be a specialist, being a specialist at wrestling is by far.

00:48:11.000 By far.

00:48:11.000 Well, you know when you see what Hamzad did to Drakas.

00:48:14.000 Oh my god.

00:48:15.000 Then that's the example.

00:48:16.000 I get that's perfect.

00:48:17.000 Elite, elite, elite wrestler.

00:48:20.000 Against a world champion, MMA fighter who's been dominating everybody and who's very difficult to take down.

00:48:26.000 And Hamza just ramped it up, kept it up.

00:48:29.000 Attack.

00:48:30.000 And like I was saying, that that Russian Dagistan, Uzbekistan, it's this ability to sustain an attack repeatedly. 0.59

00:48:41.000 Because it's that cardiovascular system.

00:48:42.000 I'm born at 6,000 feet in altitude, 7,000 feet in altitude, a little bit more of an advantage, right?

00:48:48.000 And so you end up with these attacks where you can sustain them beyond your ability to defend them.

00:48:54.000 It's also having such a technical game that as you're implementing the first attack, you've already got three attacks on standby.

00:49:02.000 Like, and then as he counters you've anticipated the counter, you have a counter to his counter, and then in a counter to his readjusting after your counter.

00:49:11.000 And you're you're just hitting him over and over.

00:49:13.000 He just can't keep the rhythm.

00:49:14.000 I I literally I text my son, I was at that fight.

00:49:17.000 I text my son and go, This is what an elite wrestler could do to a professional fighter.

00:49:22.000 It's nuts.

00:49:23.000 It's nuts because it was like a lot of people thought it was boring because it just didn't get to a decision, you know, it just went to a decision.

00:49:30.000 But you just kind of appreciate that level of dominance against a world champion.

00:49:35.000 It's kind of crazy.

00:49:36.000 Where the guy before the fight, Dracas was being looked at as one of the greatest middleweights of all time.

00:49:42.000 I mean, look at what he did to all these guys.

00:49:44.000 He knocks out Robert Whitaker.

00:49:46.000 He beats out Asanya.

00:49:48.000 He fucking beats Sean Strickland twice.

00:49:50.000 Like, oh my God, he might be one of the greatest of all time.

00:49:53.000 And then after that fight, you're like, I don't think he's ever gonna beat that guy.

00:49:56.000 Yeah.

00:49:56.000 I don't think he's ever going to beat that guy.

00:49:58.000 Isn't that crazy?

00:49:59.000 It was like I don't think there's enough time in the world to bridge that gap.

00:50:03.000 You can't you can never catch up.

00:50:06.000 You know, like I would never pretend stepping into the octagon that I would be able to get elite striking skills, right?

00:50:13.000 You know, uh like that gap could just it's constantly just something you never can get to.

00:50:18.000 It's also it's like Sean O'Malley, right?

00:50:22.000 Uh-huh.

00:50:22.000 He's gonna the only way that he's gonna be able to get a championship back is somebody else needs to beat Marab.

00:50:29.000 Yeah, Marab. 0.86

00:50:30.000 Yeah.

00:50:30.000 And then it's gotta be stylistically.

00:50:32.000 Stylistically match up, right?

00:50:34.000 That's that's that conflict of matchup.

00:50:37.000 Because skills, you're not gonna do that.

00:50:38.000 You mean he got better for the second five.

00:50:41.000 He did a lot better, but still did Marab, though.

00:50:44.000 That was part of the problem.

00:50:45.000 That guy's not he's not stopping.

00:50:47.000 God, how old is he?

00:50:48.000 Marab? 0.76

00:50:49.000 I think he's 34.

00:50:50.000 How old is Marab?

00:50:55.000 34.

00:50:56.000 I was 34.

00:50:57.000 So he's you know, he's in his prime right now, in his prime for another few years at least.

00:51:03.000 Yeah, I I would think that it's one where there's gonna be a lot of people that think they can, but that's just a different animal.

00:51:10.000 Yeah, it's gonna take someone who's that kind of a wrestler who maybe has a striking advantage, yeah, who could beat him. 0.86

00:51:16.000 Yeah.

00:51:16.000 But then, you know, that's an anomaly.

00:51:19.000 It's just it's such a crazy sport to watch that you know, from 1994 to 2025, it's almost unrecognizable.

00:51:30.000 The difference in the gap.

00:51:33.000 Like there was a period of time where I couldn't I couldn't watch uh I didn't watch the UFC, probably about like seven, eight, nine years.

00:51:40.000 And uh over the last five, six years I watched it uh almost religiously, right?

00:51:45.000 And just realizing the fighters today, oh my god, man.

00:51:50.000 They're they hit a level, and it's that it's that mutation, it's like this first generation, second generation.

00:51:57.000 And they're advancing so fast that you're looking at these new fighters, you're like, where like it's such a unique set of skills to do this.

00:52:07.000 Incredible set of skills, unique to any other sport in the world.

00:52:12.000 I know it's and it's also you're really fighting three different sports as one sport, yeah.

00:52:17.000 Yeah, which is really nuts.

00:52:18.000 You're fighting grappling, you're fighting jujitsu, and you're fighting striking all together in one sport.

00:52:24.000 It's like wow.

00:52:25.000 It's like playing soccer football and baseball at the same time.

00:52:28.000 It's like how the fuck would you do that?

00:52:30.000 Yeah.

00:52:31.000 While getting kicked.

00:52:32.000 While getting kicked.

00:52:33.000 While getting kicked and punched and elbowed.

00:52:36.000 It's uh it is uh but without guys like you, it would have never gotten here because if there weren't people that were willing to fight for very little money, travel overseas, have these crazy events, and you know, and beat your body up and do what you did and what Coleman did and a lot of those guys did in the beginning.

00:52:56.000 Without you guys, there's there is no UFC today.

00:53:00.000 It's just not it's not the same.

00:53:02.000 It was you know, one like being in the Hall of Fame and being in the pioneer we and understanding that um like I said to myself, you know, even if I advance a sport, you know, this much, it needed this much at the time to get to where it is today, right?

00:53:17.000 Like Coleman advances sport this much.

00:53:20.000 Well, you guys brought in the new element, and the new element was elite wrestling with enormous muscles.

00:53:27.000 Yeah.

00:53:28.000 And everyone was like, oh, this is a real problem.

00:53:31.000 Yeah.

00:53:32.000 And especially in the early early days, because Coleman would get on your guard and just headbutt the fuck out of you.

00:53:37.000 Because headbuts were legal.

00:53:39.000 Yeah.

00:53:40.000 Legal.

00:53:40.000 Like and bare knuckle.

00:53:41.000 Like when I first did his well, I I interviewed him after he beat Dan Severin when he became the first UFC heavyweight champion.

00:53:48.000 Total bare knuckle.

00:53:49.000 Yeah.

00:53:49.000 He had a little bit of tape on the on the hands, try to keep the bones from snapping in half.

00:53:54.000 Isn't that frightening?

00:53:56.000 Why?

00:53:57.000 Like people I I you know, they Watch it now and and you know this this film, right?

00:54:04.000 It it gives it gives people a a little bit of a look inside of like what it was and and you know for for me the cool part about it is understanding like I'm like I said, I'm just a little piece, but that little piece is necessary to be able for me to watch some of the guys do what they do now.

00:54:28.000 Well, it's different than any other sport in that these little pieces had to be there before people could figure out what to do.

00:54:36.000 Yeah.

00:54:36.000 Well, Dana put them all together.

00:54:38.000 Yeah.

00:54:38.000 You know, when I when I actually talked to him when I was in Newark, that's one thing I said.

00:54:42.000 I said, look what you built.

00:54:44.000 You can feel however you want about you know him personally.

00:54:46.000 I go, look what you built.

00:54:48.000 Yeah.

00:54:49.000 Like no one could even imagine this.

00:54:51.000 Well, you have to be a madman to do what he does.

00:54:53.000 Like he that guy works so hard and he works so many hours and he fucking loves it.

00:54:58.000 And he loves the sport, like truly loves the sport.

00:55:00.000 He and I have like long conversations on the phone.

00:55:03.000 I would imagine about fights.

00:55:05.000 I would imagine.

00:55:06.000 Just about like I'll go, what are you gonna do about this guy?

00:55:08.000 Oh when's that?

00:55:10.000 When's this happening?

00:55:12.000 You know, is this true?

00:55:13.000 Did this guy really get hurt?

00:55:14.000 He did fuck.

00:55:15.000 Yeah, oh my gosh.

00:55:16.000 Oh, it's minor.

00:55:17.000 Okay, six weeks.

00:55:18.000 Are you rescheduling it?

00:55:19.000 Okay, good.

00:55:20.000 Yeah.

00:55:20.000 You know, we have these long ass conversations, and I'll tell him about kickboxers that I've been watching, or tell him about these guys.

00:55:26.000 I mean, that's one of the ways that we became friends, and one of the ways that I started working for him in the first place is because we would have conversations when I first met him when I was on Fear Factor and I wasn't even working for the UFC.

00:55:37.000 I'd be like, You got you watched the fights in Japan?

00:55:39.000 Do you ever watch Japan Valley Tuto?

00:55:41.000 Do you know about this guy?

00:55:41.000 Do you know about Hicks and Gracie?

00:55:42.000 Do you know about this guy?

00:55:43.000 Yeah.

00:55:43.000 And I would just rattle off different names, and he was like, What do you how do you know all this?

00:55:49.000 I don't know, I don't even know the rules to basketball.

00:55:52.000 I don't know what's happening.

00:55:53.000 I know when the ball goes in the net, it's good.

00:55:55.000 I don't know the rules to football.

00:55:57.000 I don't know the rules to any I just I only have room for combat sports.

00:56:01.000 But you know, ask me about Marcelo Garcia, ask me I can answer that.

00:56:06.000 I'll rattle off some stats.

00:56:08.000 I know some shit about fighting.

00:56:10.000 But to me, it was like it was a Eddie Bravo and I when we were kids, well, we were young, young fellows, when we we were hanging around working out, we would say to ourselves, like, you know what this sport needs some crazy billionaires who love the sport, they're just gonna dump a bunch of money.

00:56:25.000 Because we knew at the time, we were like, this is the most exp exciting sport in the world, right?

00:56:30.000 So all it needs is for uh these really rich guys to be fans of sport.

00:56:34.000 And it's almost like it manifested itself because that's what happened.

00:56:37.000 The fratidas came along, and they were just really rich guys who love the sport, and they took a crazy chance.

00:56:46.000 They were forty million dollars in the hole.

00:56:48.000 Yeah.

00:56:49.000 Forty million in the hole on the UFC, and it was just losing money, losing money.

00:56:53.000 And they just hung in there year after year after year until it they were almost ready to fucking sell, and then they decided to go forward with the ultimate fighter.

00:57:02.000 That's the game changer.

00:57:03.000 That was it.

00:57:04.000 That's personalized it.

00:57:06.000 Yes.

00:57:06.000 That personalized it.

00:57:07.000 Well, people got to see it on spike TV, and then it became the fights were so wild that people were calling their friends, yeah, and they were saying, You gotta watch this.

00:57:18.000 So as the the show is on, and this is like before social media was really, yeah.

00:57:24.000 So as the fight was on, the the ratings kept going up and up and up and up.

00:57:28.000 And it was like Spike TV was like, holy shit, we gotta fucking hit.

00:57:32.000 We gotta hit.

00:57:33.000 Yeah.

00:57:33.000 And Diego Sanchez won the 1850 pound division, and then the fight between Stefan Bonner and Forrest Griffith.

00:57:41.000 That's the fight that changed everything.

00:57:42.000 Changed the game.

00:57:43.000 Cause that's one of those, if you ask just a marginal fan, they'll refer to that.

00:57:48.000 Exactly.

00:57:49.000 They'll refer to that.

00:57:50.000 Because at the time it was nobody had ever seen anything like it.

00:57:54.000 They didn't know what MMA was.

00:57:55.000 And here it is on TV, and these two guys were so evenly matched.

00:57:59.000 That was the best part about it.

00:58:01.000 They both had trained together in the house for all those fucking weeks.

00:58:05.000 Yeah.

00:58:05.000 They'd all be talking shit to each other and all that, and they knew they were gonna fight in the final, so it was like this long build-up, and they were perfectly matched.

00:58:13.000 And it was just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, fucking swing, wheel cake, punch, take talk, that's it.

00:58:19.000 I mean, there's so much shit in there.

00:58:21.000 That fight just went on and on, and at the end of it, the whole crowd was like, Oh yes!

00:58:27.000 And you know, I was the one I was the first person to suggest.

00:58:31.000 I was like, they both should have a fucking contract.

00:58:33.000 This is crazy.

00:58:34.000 You can't take a contract away from one of these guys for this fight.

00:58:37.000 And the and Dana, to his credit, gave both those guys the contract.

00:58:40.000 Yeah.

00:58:40.000 And it was all of a sudden the sport was hot.

00:58:43.000 And then Chuck Lidell was the poster boy.

00:58:45.000 Yeah.

00:58:45.000 Because he was the perfect guy to be the most famous champion at the time.

00:58:50.000 Because he was a destroyer.

00:58:52.000 Oh God.

00:58:52.000 He just seek and destroy.

00:58:55.000 And he had an iron chin, and he just and he would just stare at you with a fucking serial killer's eyes and just march.

00:59:02.000 When you watched him, like me watching him, he was so awkward when he held his hands and punched.

00:59:09.000 It was so like even watching now going, he was just hunting.

00:59:13.000 He was just hunting.

00:59:14.000 Yeah.

00:59:15.000 And hunting.

00:59:16.000 And loading up.

00:59:16.000 And he would hunt.

00:59:17.000 And it wasn't like.

00:59:19.000 It was every single thing was thrown with intent.

00:59:22.000 Yeah.

00:59:23.000 Everything was shown thrown to shut you off.

00:59:26.000 Oh.

00:59:27.000 And he could do it.

00:59:28.000 And he could do it for five fucking rounds, too, which was crazy.

00:59:30.000 Which is in his prime the thing about that style is it's unsustainable.

00:59:36.000 He never ducked a punch in his life.

00:59:38.000 He took him running the chin and fucking and blasted right through.

00:59:42.000 He had an iron job.

00:59:44.000 It was fucking iron.

00:59:45.000 Yeah.

00:59:45.000 But everybody's iron jaw gives out after a while.

00:59:48.000 It's just you can't.

00:59:48.000 And he's not.

00:59:49.000 You can't stay.

00:59:50.000 You can't sustain it.

00:59:51.000 It's just one where the fratidas first bought the UFC.

00:59:56.000 Um I was living in California, and a friend of mine who was helping me at the time said, Hey, listen, uh, they're up at Big Bear having a training camp.

01:00:03.000 I'm like, okay, let's go up.

01:00:05.000 So get my truck, drive up.

01:00:07.000 It starts snowing.

01:00:08.000 It was like February.

01:00:09.000 They're gonna do their first big push with Tito, right?

01:00:13.000 And uh I get hit by a drunk driver at 11 a.m. in the morning on the way up.

01:00:18.000 So uh my attorney was in the car with us.

01:00:21.000 He I literally the tow truck takes us up to the top of the hill.

01:00:25.000 Um I still get to talk to Dana, I still get to talk to Frank and Lorenzo, and I'm like, yeah, I got it by drunk everything like, well, we're going to Beverly La Hills Wheelshare tomorrow.

01:00:34.000 Why don't you just jump in the limo with us and we'll take you down? 0.82

01:00:36.000 I'm like, okay.

01:00:38.000 So I get like this three hour drive down the mountain with Frank and Lorenzo, the new owners of the UFC.

01:00:44.000 Wow.

01:00:45.000 And we're just sitting there talking, they're they're like, hey, you know, how is it working in Japan?

01:00:49.000 They knew everything about me.

01:00:50.000 Yeah, how is it working in Japan?

01:00:52.000 How do they do this?

01:00:52.000 How did they do that?

01:00:54.000 And it was just this really cool conversation, really cool experience to be able to go, okay.

01:00:59.000 Maybe this has landed in the right spot.

01:01:01.000 Oh, they were the right guys.

01:01:03.000 They were the right guys because they were like Frank and Lorenzo are rabid fans.

01:01:08.000 Yeah, like rabid.

01:01:09.000 Yeah.

01:01:09.000 And they would train and they would beat the fuck out of each other.

01:01:12.000 And that's where they met Frank.

01:01:14.000 Frank they brought Frank in to help them.

01:01:17.000 They've kind of erased Frank.

01:01:19.000 So Frank Shamrock, in my opinion, is one of the all-time greats.

01:01:23.000 And also one of the most important in terms of the metamorphosis in terms of the evolution of the sport.

01:01:30.000 Because Frank was the first guy with the elite cardio that could do everything.

01:01:34.000 He could submit you off his back.

01:01:36.000 Like remember when he fought Kevin Jackson.

01:01:37.000 Yep, yep, caught him in an arm bar, bang, first round, right off his.

01:01:41.000 He was elite everywhere.

01:01:43.000 And his cardio was off the charts.

01:01:44.000 When he fought Tito Ortiz, Tito was much bigger than him.

01:01:48.000 Yeah.

01:01:48.000 Not just a little bit bigger than him, much Frank's not a big frame guy.

01:01:52.000 And Tito is a fucking house.

01:01:54.000 Tito?

01:01:55.000 Yeah.

01:01:55.000 And he just overwhelmed him, beat him down with cardio.

01:01:58.000 And then after that fight, Tito taught everybody.

01:02:03.000 Cardio is number one.

01:02:05.000 It's number one.

01:02:07.000 He when he was teaching, when he was coaching on the Ultimate Fighter, he told everybody, it's fucking cardio.

01:02:12.000 Yeah.

01:02:12.000 Without cardio, you have nothing.

01:02:13.000 And his cardio was legendary too.

01:02:16.000 I mean, they say what fatigue makes cowards of us all.

01:02:19.000 Right.

01:02:19.000 It's true.

01:02:20.000 Yeah.

01:02:20.000 It's true.

01:02:21.000 I mean, it's just one of those, and again, this goes back to what I was saying about Frank and I haven't conversations back then about heart rate training.

01:02:28.000 Mm-hmm.

01:02:29.000 Twenty-five years ago, you go heart rate.

01:02:31.000 What?

01:02:32.000 Little polar, you know, watch and you know, keep and like, oh, we need to recover this many beats in a minute, but actively recover.

01:02:39.000 Right.

01:02:40.000 Like you had to still continue to do shit and recover.

01:02:43.000 And this is what Frank was saying.

01:02:44.000 Yeah, I started doing this.

01:02:45.000 I'm like, what the fuck?

01:02:47.000 He was a very smart well, he is a very smart guy.

01:02:49.000 Yeah.

01:02:50.000 And I don't know why they had some kind of a falling out, but they but they don't highlight him anymore.

01:02:54.000 They don't talk about him at all.

01:02:56.000 And I think that's pivotal.

01:02:57.000 Pivotal.

01:02:57.000 I think you gotta let that go of just for the honor of what happened.

01:03:02.000 The honor of the sport.

01:03:03.000 Because the for the honor of the sport, when you look at Frank, like when you look at his fights, like he was elite, man.

01:03:11.000 He was ahead of his time.

01:03:12.000 He was ahead of his time.

01:03:14.000 By By far.

01:03:15.000 He was the first really truly complete mixed martial artist.

01:03:18.000 I agree.

01:03:19.000 You know, and people see him like the fight that he fought when he was fighting in strike force.

01:03:24.000 You're not seen the same guy.

01:03:25.000 You're seeing him, it's later in his life.

01:03:27.000 You see when he fought Nick Diaz.

01:03:29.000 You can't.

01:03:29.000 It's like what I said about goats.

01:03:31.000 Yeah.

01:03:31.000 You want to look at BJ Penn?

01:03:32.000 Look at BJ Penn when he fought Sean Shirk.

01:03:34.000 Yeah.

01:03:35.000 Look at BJ Penn when he fought Big Daddy Stevenson.

01:03:37.000 That's one of the scariest fucking guys who's ever stepped in an octagon at 155 pounds.

01:03:42.000 Period.

01:03:42.000 I put him with all of them, and I don't know what happens.

01:03:45.000 And then there's Kabib.

01:03:46.000 Same third.

01:03:48.000 You put that guy with any 155 pounder who's ever existed, and I don't know what's gonna happen.

01:03:53.000 Yeah.

01:03:53.000 How are you gonna beat that guy?

01:03:54.000 Yeah.

01:03:54.000 You know?

01:03:55.000 There's there's a few guys like that, and Kabib has to be in that conversation too.

01:03:59.000 When you look at his dominance over like the way he was winning fights, I'll never forget when he fought Edson Barbosa.

01:04:05.000 It was in the first round, and Edson had this look in his eyes, like, oh my god, I've got to get two how many more rounds with this motherfucker.

01:04:13.000 Because he was just already exhausted in this fucking animal from Dagastan with just on him, on him, dragging to the ground. 0.88

01:04:22.000 I'll never forget we had Michael Johnson down the ground.

01:04:25.000 He's beacon beating Michael Johnson up, and he's like, quit, quit.

01:04:29.000 You know I need titles shut is mine.

01:04:31.000 You know title shot is mine, you know I deserved it.

01:04:33.000 Quit.

01:04:34.000 And he's just beating the fuck out of him, trying to be nice.

01:04:37.000 He gets him in Kimura, and I'm going, please tap.

01:04:41.000 I'm like, please tap, please tap.

01:04:42.000 Because I'm seeing that spiral fracture.

01:04:44.000 Oh my god.

01:04:45.000 When they get that spiral fracture, I've seen it coming.

01:04:47.000 I'm like, please tap.

01:04:49.000 We don't even have been through that with Frank when Frank got Minotauro in there. 1.00

01:04:53.000 Here it is.

01:04:54.000 He's talking to him.

01:04:54.000 He's like, listen, give me some volume.

01:04:58.000 I need to fight for the title.

01:05:00.000 You know I deserve this.

01:05:01.000 Come on, buddy.

01:05:02.000 I don't want to have to hurt you.

01:05:04.000 Oh my god.

01:05:06.000 Look at this.

01:05:07.000 I mean, he's doing whatever.

01:05:09.000 But this is speaks to your point.

01:05:11.000 See, everybody agrees that people are cheering.

01:05:14.000 Look, I need to fight for it.

01:05:17.000 Look at it.

01:05:18.000 He's he's trying to be nice to him.

01:05:20.000 That's such dominance.

01:05:23.000 It is trying to be nice to a nice guy.

01:05:25.000 Like, come on, you know what the fuck is going on.

01:05:27.000 Yeah.

01:05:28.000 And again, to his credit, he didn't.

01:05:30.000 I think he could have just fucking ripped that arm apart.

01:05:32.000 He let him tap.

01:05:33.000 He let him tap.

01:05:34.000 I think he could have so much.

01:05:37.000 So this is this is like again, we're seeing like taking somebody fucking will. 0.87

01:05:42.000 Taking it, he was a will taker.

01:05:43.000 Like what he did to Connor.

01:05:44.000 Oh when he got on top of Connor, he's like, let's talk now.

01:05:47.000 Let's talk now.

01:05:48.000 Just beating his face in, going, come on, you want to talk?

01:05:51.000 Let's talk now.

01:05:52.000 You talk about about humble pie, like you fucking having to sit back and like that's at a level where where you're a bad motherfucker to begin with, and somebody that's even a badder motherfucker.

01:06:06.000 Who just dominates you?

01:06:07.000 Just oh my god.

01:06:08.000 Just could kill you.

01:06:09.000 Same size as you, and basically he could kill you.

01:06:12.000 If he wanted to, you're dead.

01:06:13.000 Yeah.

01:06:14.000 You're not gonna live, he's gonna live.

01:06:15.000 He could just literally choke you unconscious and just keep choking until you're he was gonna break his neck.

01:06:20.000 He had him in that fulcrum choke.

01:06:21.000 That is such a nasty choke. 0.76

01:06:23.000 Look, here's where he gets it.

01:06:25.000 So he's getting it, and he's holding on to it.

01:06:27.000 Look, he's not he's not doing he's not going all through.

01:06:31.000 No, no.

01:06:31.000 If he wanted to, he couldn't just ripped that right hip down, pull that left arm up, and that thing's snapping like a twig.

01:06:38.000 It's so scary.

01:06:39.000 Oh my god.

01:06:40.000 That's my scariest tech.

01:06:41.000 Other than guys, when they break their shins, yeah.

01:06:44.000 When they go shin to knee and the shin snaps in half.

01:06:48.000 Like silver breaking and something like that.

01:06:50.000 Oh, it's horrible.

01:06:50.000 Widman was the worst.

01:06:52.000 That like that stuff, I one watch is good enough.

01:06:56.000 It was so when Wideman's.

01:06:59.000 And Wideman, yeah, don't pull that one.

01:07:01.000 Wideman's went through his calf.

01:07:03.000 His bones snapped through and poked out of his calf.

01:07:07.000 Oh.

01:07:08.000 Which is real dangerous too, because then you run the risk of heavy infection.

01:07:12.000 Yeah, all of that.

01:07:13.000 All that you're on the dirty mat, and you got an open wound and oh.

01:07:17.000 No, some of that stuff is just like, gosh, man, it's other lines.

01:07:20.000 Do you feel weird that you did it?

01:07:22.000 Like now when you look back on you've been removed for so long, and you're like, you beat the fuck out of somebody.

01:07:28.000 I remember when you took Dan Bovish down, you stuck your chin in his eyeball.

01:07:32.000 God, man.

01:07:33.000 First, the only one still exists, yeah.

01:07:35.000 Is this mission by uh chin and eyeball choke.

01:07:38.000 Yeah.

01:07:38.000 I don't know if you call it choke, but I'd never seen anybody do that before.

01:07:41.000 I'm like, that's genius.

01:07:42.000 Yeah, you know what?

01:07:43.000 It wasn't illegal.

01:07:44.000 It wasn't illegal.

01:07:45.000 And it I know it hurt like a motherfucker for him.

01:07:48.000 Why would it be illegal?

01:07:49.000 Why is it okay to elbow the eyeball?

01:07:51.000 But it's not okay to shove your chin in there.

01:07:54.000 I don't know.

01:07:54.000 You know, and those are the headbutt days.

01:07:56.000 So headbutts were legal, so why wouldn't it be legal to sh you could chin butt a guy if you wanted to, I guess.

01:08:01.000 Yeah.

01:08:01.000 So if you you use I mean, but the thing is, it's a real weapon.

01:08:05.000 Yeah.

01:08:06.000 It is real.

01:08:06.000 It's very effective.

01:08:07.000 Like, I don't think we should poke to eyes because you know that's a different thing.

01:08:13.000 But that is also obviously a real weapon.

01:08:15.000 Like Kung Fu guys point to that all the time.

01:08:17.000 They go, look, these guys are the toughest fighters in the world.

01:08:20.000 You poke them in the eyes and they're fucked. 0.67

01:08:22.000 They're right.

01:08:22.000 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:08:24.000 Yeah.

01:08:24.000 I mean, I don't know how good you are at eye poking.

01:08:26.000 You have to be pretty fucking accurate.

01:08:27.000 Yeah, but it's not something you can count on.

01:08:29.000 No, no.

01:08:31.000 Yeah, here it is.

01:08:32.000 Yeah.

01:08:32.000 You shove your fucking chin right in his eyeball.

01:08:35.000 He's just like so when I'm down there, you could I could hear him.

01:08:40.000 Oh like fuck that hurt.

01:08:43.000 Oh, it was horrible, dude.

01:08:44.000 It was horrible.

01:08:44.000 But it's again, it speaks to what we're talking about.

01:08:47.000 The dominance of elite wrestling and how elite wrestling, it surpasses all martial arts.

01:08:52.000 It's the number one most and an elite wrestler can lure jujitsu. 0.94

01:08:56.000 Okay.

01:08:56.000 An elite grappler can you could easily teach them how to do head and arm chokes, triangles, all that.

01:09:02.000 All that.

01:09:02.000 That's not you're already used to manipulating bodies.

01:09:05.000 So part of um my participation ADCC was to represent wrestling.

01:09:13.000 Right?

01:09:14.000 Yeah.

01:09:14.000 Because the first year when I got approached to go over there, I'm like, uh what like what is that?

01:09:18.000 Like a submission grappling, like um, like Gilas grappling or geeless you too. 0.93

01:09:24.000 Right.

01:09:24.000 They're like, hey, listen, here's what we're gonna do.

01:09:26.000 We're gonna give you X, you know, come over.

01:09:28.000 And it wasn't a ton, it was like $15,000 to go over.

01:09:32.000 And I was like, uh, okay.

01:09:34.000 I was like, all right.

01:09:36.000 Like, fuck that, I don't know.

01:09:37.000 But while you were fighting, yeah, while I was fighting.

01:09:40.000 And so I'm like, okay.

01:09:41.000 I just go just as a source of pride, suppressed it was one of those where I was like, okay, now that it's explained to me, I go, well, wrestlers need to be represented there.

01:09:51.000 Right?

01:09:51.000 Yes.

01:09:52.000 And so I go over there, and it was one of those things where it's like, well, I can actually show everybody here in this world that thinks their shit's dominant.

01:10:03.000 Like, no.

01:10:04.000 This is a skill set you need.

01:10:06.000 You need elite wrestling skills, right?

01:10:08.000 You can have jujitsu black belt and all this stuff, but if you're missing this piece component to it, you're fucked.

01:10:14.000 You're fucked.

01:10:15.000 And so it was all about control.

01:10:17.000 Did you see um the most recent fight with uh Mauricio Rufi?

01:10:22.000 No.

01:10:23.000 Okay, so Mauricio Rufi, who is one of the most dynamic strikers in the sport.

01:10:28.000 He's literally like a big Connor.

01:10:30.000 I mean, it doesn't make sense that he's in the same weight class as Connor, because I think he's six-one.

01:10:35.000 Oh.

01:10:35.000 But he's real tall.

01:10:36.000 He's at least six feet tall.

01:10:37.000 He's real tall and long and just elite striker.

01:10:41.000 But he fought this cat, Benoissan Denis, who is uh judo black belt, elite on the ground, super fucking strong, and he just dominated him, man.

01:10:51.000 He got a hold of him, ragdolled him, got him to the ground.

01:10:54.000 And Mauricio had his moments in the fight standing because Benoit Saint Denis is a French special forces guy, he's a hard motherfucker.

01:11:02.000 And so he did stand with Mauricio for a little bit, but he got dinged up a little bit, but once he got him to the ground, it was just full domination.

01:11:11.000 And then it left everybody in this position where we were looking at Mauricio Rufi as being like that guy's a future world champion.

01:11:17.000 To like, oh no, like that gap's too wide.

01:11:19.000 Yeah.

01:11:20.000 Like he's gotta learn so much to be competitive with the elite.

01:11:24.000 Now they're gonna know.

01:11:24.000 Yeah.

01:11:25.000 Imagine like Camaro in his prime.

01:11:27.000 No, for sure.

01:11:28.000 You know, yeah.

01:11:28.000 And that's probably that's that gap we were talking about.

01:11:30.000 Like you can't do it.

01:11:31.000 There's no way to fucking make that up.

01:11:33.000 There's no there's not enough time in your career.

01:11:36.000 Well, we got to see that.

01:11:37.000 Kamaro was like 38 now, okay?

01:11:39.000 And he just fought Joaquin Buckley and dominated him.

01:11:42.000 Wow.

01:11:42.000 Domin and Buckley's another one who is this guy who is dominating everybody at 170.

01:11:47.000 We just knocked out Wonderboy.

01:11:49.000 We're like, this fucking guy might be the one.

01:11:51.000 Yeah.

01:11:51.000 And then all of a sudden, 38-year-old Kamaro Usman shows how fucking important wrestling is.

01:11:57.000 It's everything.

01:11:59.000 It's everything.

01:12:01.000 Because you could be defensively responsible.

01:12:03.000 Like he's very defensively responsible standing.

01:12:06.000 You know, other than the Leon Edwards kick, he very rarely gets cracked.

01:12:09.000 Yeah.

01:12:09.000 You know, Gilbert got him a little and dropped him, but very rarely gets in trouble standing.

01:12:15.000 But once he gets you, the gap is so big.

01:12:18.000 You can't make it.

01:12:19.000 The gap's so big.

01:12:20.000 Yeah, that's you know, and again, this is this is one of these things where fundamentally also wrestling gives you a cardio base that you can build off of.

01:12:28.000 Yeah.

01:12:29.000 Not only not only because that's the other missing component, right?

01:12:32.000 It's like this because it at an elite level, it's fucking intense.

01:12:38.000 It is really intense.

01:12:39.000 Like Kurt, when he was on your show, he's talking about, yeah, I trained till exhaustion, and then I trained.

01:12:43.000 Yeah.

01:12:44.000 You know, it's like that's how he because at one point when Kurt and I were competing against each other, like 93, 94.

01:12:50.000 I just I just was bigger, stronger, and and I could just defend his attacks.

01:12:57.000 But he won the Olympics with a broken neck.

01:12:59.000 Yeah, fuck, man.

01:13:00.000 With a broken neck.

01:13:01.000 Come on.

01:13:01.000 With a broken neck.

01:13:02.000 I was there at Nationals when when he literally hit the mat, and I'm like, like literally, I watched when he when his neck broke at freestyle nationals, and he got hit with an arm spin, and he gets arm thrown and his head gets almost like separated.

01:13:18.000 It was nasty.

01:13:19.000 And and I'm in the stands going, oh fuck, he's not gonna be in the trials.

01:13:23.000 Like there's no fucking way he's gonna be in the trials.

01:13:26.000 And sure enough, fucking like five weeks later, he's in the trials.

01:13:29.000 And I'm like, what the fuck, man?

01:13:32.000 There's no way he should be fucking able to wrestle.

01:13:36.000 There are guys like that in the world, and people need to know.

01:13:40.000 You need to know.

01:13:41.000 There's levels to everything, and there's levels to mental strength.

01:13:45.000 There's levels to guys who just will go, and it's really kind of a crying shame.

01:13:50.000 Uh it's look, he had an amazing career in WWE.

01:13:53.000 He's loved by everyone.

01:13:55.000 Yeah, everybody loves him.

01:13:56.000 That's great.

01:13:58.000 But it's kind of sucks that people don't know.

01:14:00.000 Like at real wrestling, that guy was the shit.

01:14:05.000 Oh my god, man.

01:14:06.000 He was the shit.

01:14:08.000 He was so good and small for a heavyweight.

01:14:11.000 He was so he was always undersized.

01:14:14.000 Yeah.

01:14:14.000 But this it's like the years that I beat him, and then 95 when we wrestled in the freestyle nationals, and I had beat him four four times in a row at that point.

01:14:23.000 So we we wrestled in the 95 Freestyle Nationals, and I get a hold of him for the first time, and something was different.

01:14:31.000 I was like, oh fuck.

01:14:33.000 Like wrestling, going, oh man, something's different with Kurt.

01:14:38.000 And he ends up beating me.

01:14:39.000 And then in the freestyle nationals in 95, and I'm like, oh fuck.

01:14:43.000 There was just something different.

01:14:44.000 I'm like, because he he could stay on an attack longer, stay on an attack longer.

01:14:49.000 He was stronger.

01:14:50.000 He hit a gear that I didn't fucking have.

01:14:53.000 Wow.

01:14:53.000 Like I go, oh fuck.

01:14:54.000 Like looking back on him, I'm going, oh shit, I totally missed that.

01:14:58.000 Like most guys at 220 pounds, which you're wrestling at, they they would have these attacks that they would initiate.

01:15:05.000 It's like grab a hold of you, hold on to you, and then initiate an attack.

01:15:09.000 Kurt was constantly probing and attacking and attacking.

01:15:12.000 Which was the benefit of being lighter.

01:15:13.000 Yes.

01:15:14.000 Yeah.

01:15:14.000 And lighter.

01:15:16.000 Lighter and quicker.

01:15:17.000 But still wicked strong.

01:15:19.000 Oh my God.

01:15:19.000 He could still get in.

01:15:20.000 So it's these attacks that he just sustained and he just wear you out of position.

01:15:25.000 So this constant attack, attack, attack.

01:15:28.000 And all of a sudden it was just this little little angle that he was hunting for the whole time.

01:15:32.000 And then he hits that attack and fucking takes you now.

01:15:34.000 You're like, fuck.

01:15:36.000 Like, what the fuck?

01:15:38.000 It's just there's levels of of drive.

01:15:42.000 There's levels of discipline, there's levels of will.

01:15:45.000 There's levels of wanting something.

01:15:47.000 And that's what scares people, I think.

01:15:49.000 That's why people get really terrified of like truly special athletes because they don't want to know how lazy they really are.

01:15:58.000 I think it's one of the things that drives people nuts about seeing like some insanely disciplined, like elite top of the food chain grappler or striker or whatever it is.

01:16:07.000 Yeah MMA fighter.

01:16:08.000 Because it's like you don't want to know that someone's willing to work that much harder than that.

01:16:12.000 Harder than you are than you ever have.

01:16:14.000 Then you ever have at anything.

01:16:16.000 At anything.

01:16:17.000 Fuck.

01:16:18.000 That's I mean, Kurt Kurt was one of the where he opened my eyes or I was like, fuck, there's there's another gear.

01:16:24.000 Yeah.

01:16:25.000 I thought I was trained fucking hard.

01:16:27.000 That's what's crazy.

01:16:28.000 It's we're kind of seeing that we We've had this conversation recently in regards to Marab, because we're saying, okay, is Marab just physically gifted?

01:16:39.000 Because I think Kane had a a some sort of a genetic advantage with cardio.

01:16:44.000 Because DC would talk about how he would take three months off and come back in the gym and fuck everybody up with like cardio.

01:16:51.000 Somebody that size, it's an anomaly.

01:16:52.000 It's an anomaly.

01:16:53.000 It's an anomaly.

01:16:54.000 But Marob swears that when he was young, he had bad cardio.

01:16:57.000 He said, No, I I smoked it.

01:17:01.000 I can imagine.

01:17:02.000 Like Sakuraba smoking cigarettes at all.

01:17:06.000 I'm like, really?

01:17:07.000 And he it's just hard work and discipline.

01:17:10.000 And then so I have a bunch of friends who do hundred milers.

01:17:14.000 You know, and uh, you know, I'm real good friends with my friend Cam Haynes.

01:17:18.000 And Cam Haynes, he just did a hundred miler like two weeks before we went elk hunting.

01:17:23.000 Like he does hundred milers all the time.

01:17:24.000 He's done a 240.

01:17:26.000 He's what is the the Bigfoot 240?

01:17:28.000 Is that what it is?

01:17:29.000 He's done a bunch of these through the mountains with thousands of feet of elevation and decline.

01:17:35.000 He's done a bunch of these that are 200 plus miles.

01:17:37.000 God, that's not and you gotta build up to that.

01:17:41.000 But once you get to that, you c if you're sustaining it, you can do those things.

01:17:45.000 So he does those things on a regular basis.

01:17:47.000 He does multiple ones a year.

01:17:49.000 So that didn't you didn't used to think that that was possible.

01:17:52.000 They used to say that if you ran a marathon, like you were destroyed for like two weeks.

01:17:56.000 No, he was running a marathon a day while he worked a full-time job.

01:18:02.000 So he was getting up in the morning at dark, he was running 13 miles, he was going to work during his lunchtime, he would eat after lunch, after work, he runs another 13 fucking miles.

01:18:14.000 He would be one where I I wouldn't want to look at him because I'd think I'm lazy.

01:18:18.000 That's the thing.

01:18:19.000 That's why there's a thing about like I think I'm lazy and I love him.

01:18:23.000 He's my friends, but I think I'm lazy when I when I like watch what he's doing.

01:18:26.000 And then Goggins is another one.

01:18:27.000 Yeah, oh my god.

01:18:30.000 Because he ain't doing it for nothing.

01:18:32.000 He's not preparing for elk hunting.

01:18:34.000 He rarely even competes in races, but yet he's doing the a level of cardio where he brings world champions like Israel Adasanya comes to train with him and he's throwing up in a bucket.

01:18:45.000 He can't keep up and Coggins is fifty.

01:18:48.000 Oh my god.

01:18:48.000 He's 50!

01:18:49.000 Wow.

01:18:50.000 How old is Goggins?

01:18:51.000 50.

01:18:54.000 Oh my god.

01:18:55.000 And he's got two terrible knees.

01:18:57.000 Oh my god.

01:18:58.000 He's had many knee surgeries.

01:19:00.000 His knees are destroyed.

01:19:01.000 And he does not give a fuck.

01:19:03.000 He forces them to work.

01:19:05.000 Golly.

01:19:06.000 So that so again, this is like that's a level which is just exceptional.

01:19:11.000 Yeah.

01:19:12.000 Because there's just a lot of things.

01:19:13.000 What's a weird level?

01:19:14.000 It is because that's a pocket.

01:19:16.000 It's just a pocket of people that have that.

01:19:18.000 There's only a handful.

01:19:20.000 There's only a handful like that guy.

01:19:21.000 Because it's not just that.

01:19:22.000 He broke the world record chin-up competition once.

01:19:25.000 Like he's he's done uh he's done a ton of things that are just like physically insane.

01:19:32.000 You know, he was a smoke jumper, he didn't even tell anybody about it.

01:19:35.000 He did it just because it was hard.

01:19:38.000 This is why he's famous.

01:19:40.000 So while he was famous, they take him up in a helicopter and he fucking parachuted to fight forest fires.

01:19:46.000 Because it was hard to do.

01:19:48.000 I'm not shitting you, man.

01:19:49.000 Oh my god.

01:19:50.000 He sent me a photo once.

01:19:51.000 He texted me a photo of a grizzly bear track.

01:19:54.000 And he goes, We just landed near this.

01:19:57.000 I mean, it's a fucking track like that big.

01:20:00.000 And he's out there with a backpack and a fucking shovel to fight fires.

01:20:05.000 And only because it's hard.

01:20:07.000 He's a multi-millionaire.

01:20:09.000 Yeah, oh my god.

01:20:10.000 He's a multi-millionaire who's getting parachuted to fight fires.

01:20:14.000 And here's the thing, man.

01:20:15.000 If I didn't talk about it, and maybe I'm out of school, people wouldn't even know.

01:20:19.000 You have to know that.

01:20:20.000 Maybe he doesn't want people to know.

01:20:21.000 They need to know that.

01:20:22.000 That's fucking insane.

01:20:24.000 That is beyond insane.

01:20:25.000 That's like one of those where it's like you know, the wiring that exists in him, it it doesn't happen by chance.

01:20:33.000 That's that's that's you have this genetic ability.

01:20:36.000 But he was fat when he was young and he is lazy, he was drinking milkshakes.

01:20:40.000 He talks about it openly.

01:20:41.000 He said the first time he decided to in enlist when he went like to run to go running, he couldn't even run around the block.

01:20:48.000 He was totally out of shape.

01:20:49.000 He's got he has photos of it.

01:20:51.000 He shows you like this is like no, I made myself this.

01:20:54.000 So this is my thinking about fighting.

01:20:56.000 Like, have we just accepted that you can't really fight full blast for five, five minute rounds?

01:21:02.000 Or is it that no one has built themselves up to a level where you can't?

01:21:08.000 Like when you were talking about how Kurt get a new gear.

01:21:10.000 Or with the gear that Marab is clearly on right now, Or Hamza.

01:21:15.000 There's there's that gear.

01:21:16.000 Yeah.

01:21:16.000 What if what if like we're gonna push that even further where there's guys that can sprint for five, five minute rounds like there's a few flywaves that can do that.

01:21:25.000 Yeah.

01:21:25.000 Like Pantoja can kind of sprint for five, five minute rounds.

01:21:29.000 You can go.

01:21:29.000 So they'll eventually be a fighter that can do that.

01:21:33.000 Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too.

01:21:34.000 And because it's just one where, like I was saying, from where I started from 25 years ago, and the training methods and how archaic they were, and how little knowledge was out there.

01:21:44.000 Right.

01:21:44.000 Now knowledge is advancing at such a rapid rate, and they're understanding how to recover.

01:21:53.000 Yeah, and if you add in a bunch of stuff like hyperbaric chambers, so if these guys have access to hyperbaric chambers and and training with uh hypoxic chain chambers and shit like that, there's it's there's levels and levels and levels that can be reached.

01:22:07.000 It's you just have to be a complete fucking psycho and go through all the levels.

01:22:12.000 Yeah.

01:22:13.000 And get like Donkey Kong.

01:22:16.000 Like measure all your food, all your electrolytes, everything throughout the day, have your sleep environment perfect, wear a mask.

01:22:24.000 I'm telling you, there's guys out there that'll do it.

01:22:26.000 There's guys that'll do it.

01:22:27.000 They'll do it.

01:22:28.000 Well, they have to if that's where you get the edge, right?

01:22:31.000 Yeah.

01:22:31.000 I mean, it's becoming it's becoming to a point now where the financial benefit is worth the sacrifice, right?

01:22:37.000 Yes.

01:22:38.000 That you'll end up going, okay.

01:22:40.000 Because what what started to happen when I was fighting is that once the financial piece started getting in there, it started attracting more talent.

01:22:47.000 Right.

01:22:47.000 Right?

01:22:48.000 Right.

01:22:49.000 So that m talent, it brings the level of everybody up.

01:22:52.000 Yeah.

01:22:53.000 And then all of a sudden it's like a little bit more money, talent that could have maybe went and did something else.

01:22:58.000 They're going, no, I'm gonna go do this because I can make money.

01:23:01.000 Yeah, this is the thing, right?

01:23:02.000 If you're a young kid and you're really good at baseball, but you also like jujitsu and MMA, and you you know, have an amateur fight, maybe, and you're thinking about what you're gonna do with your career.

01:23:13.000 You could be so rich playing baseball.

01:23:16.000 Oh god, yeah.

01:23:16.000 You could be so rich if you're really good at baseball, you can be rich as fuck, and nobody's trying to kill you.

01:23:21.000 Yeah, nobody's trying to beat you over the head with elbows, nobody's taking you down in front of everybody and humiliating you.

01:23:27.000 Well, fuck this.

01:23:29.000 Let's play ball.

01:23:31.000 Seriously, seriously, I fucking play baseball on a heartbeat, man.

01:23:35.000 Fuck yeah.

01:23:36.000 So that's the problem with MMA, is like you you hear like, what is it to fight in the UFC?

01:23:40.000 Like, what is the bottom scale?

01:23:42.000 What's like the lowest contract that you can get in the UFC in 2020?

01:23:45.000 And I this is not even saying they deserve more because this is just how the sport works.

01:23:49.000 Yeah.

01:23:49.000 And even and it's way better in the UFC, by the way, than it is in boxing.

01:23:52.000 When you watch a boxing card, most of the money's at the top, and there's there's very little spread out.

01:23:57.000 Yeah, there's guys that fight in the UFC undercard that make excellent money, but when you first start, you don't or think it's like 10.

01:24:06.000 It's one of those things where it's like would I expect this like start at Microsoft, right?

01:24:11.000 Yeah, and going, Yeah, I get a million dollars a year.

01:24:13.000 Fuck no, you work your way into, and that's one of one of the things about the sport, as long as it has the opportunity to let somebody grow into it, you know, and still gives them financial incentive to grow into it, right?

01:24:26.000 Right.

01:24:27.000 And just one where it's like I wouldn't expect, like, hey, I'm a good fighter, pay me a million dollars.

01:24:31.000 It's like, well, that's not how fucking works.

01:24:32.000 No, I wouldn't say a million dollars, but wouldn't you say, like, let's make this argument.

01:24:37.000 Wouldn't you think that for young struggling fighters, if they got paid more for fights, they could put together better camps.

01:24:45.000 They could.

01:24:46.000 They could get better recovery and nutrition, have less stress, yeah, and be able to perform better so it would make the product better.

01:24:54.000 So here here's where here's where my career transitioned.

01:24:57.000 I call it internally funded.

01:25:00.000 My first four fights, I was using that money to get to the next fight to get to the next fight to get the next fight.

01:25:07.000 Then all of a sudden I get in Japan and they pay me enough money for the one fight that the next day I woke up and I was a professional fighter because it was the only thing I had to do was train as a fighter.

01:25:22.000 What was the biggest check you got in Japan?

01:25:24.000 Uh yeah, a little over half a million.

01:25:26.000 Damn.

01:25:27.000 Back then, that was cash.

01:25:30.000 Yeah, fucking.

01:25:31.000 How did you get it out of the country?

01:25:32.000 That was how did you get it?

01:25:34.000 So here's a million.

01:25:36.000 Here's what's fucked up about it, right?

01:25:37.000 So my first couple times over there, I'm like, I put like first time I I got I put forty something thousand in one cowboy boot with two socks.

01:25:47.000 I put 40,000 in the other cowboy boot with the two socks.

01:25:50.000 I'm serious.

01:25:51.000 Because it was straight out of the fucking cartoons how you got paid.

01:25:55.000 Because the next day you would go up to a room and and you literally would have a room, you'd have an adjacent room used to Japanese guys in black suits smoking, and then you'd have this room, which is where you get paid. 0.90

01:26:07.000 They had these you know, suitcases that had your pay, you could choose your currency, right?

01:26:13.000 I'm getting paid in American dollars.

01:26:14.000 So they would have your contract slide your contract over and then go, okay, this fight you get paid. 0.64

01:26:19.000 This is the dollar amount, blah, blah, blah.

01:26:21.000 And they would literally take it out, count it, you would sign on it, and then they would just hand you the cash.

01:26:26.000 First time they ever did that, I'm like, it's a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in cash, and I'm like, fuck.

01:26:32.000 I'm like, I'll be right back.

01:26:34.000 I go to the to the bedroom, that's it's in the hotel room, and I grab the fucking case to the pillow, and I go over and I fucking just scrape the fucking money, put it in the pillowcase, and I go, okay, thank you.

01:26:46.000 It's just a fucking go ahead out. 0.68

01:26:49.000 I don't know what to fucking do.

01:26:50.000 That's cool.

01:26:51.000 I'm like down I'm like down in the elevator, like fucking holding the money, like I don't know what to fucking do.

01:26:59.000 Like, who is that?

01:27:02.000 Big giant guy with a hundred fifty grand ability.

01:27:05.000 That does not look like no, no, it does not, man.

01:27:08.000 It's it's like what did they expect you to do with it?

01:27:11.000 They give you any advice on how to get it out of the country.

01:27:13.000 Oh no, no, that was not.

01:27:15.000 That was it was your responsibility.

01:27:17.000 Oh my god.

01:27:18.000 So literally, I'm like, oh fuck, man.

01:27:20.000 I like get on it, and like in my head, I'm playing all these movies, right?

01:27:23.000 Like, oh, in this movie, he got caught at the border.

01:27:26.000 You know, I'm like, fuck.

01:27:27.000 You know, I know that's gonna be this one, you know.

01:27:30.000 It's like so I end up fucking just going, oh, cowboy boots, tube socks, like fucking 40 grand in one boot, 40 grand in the other, put it in a fucking and like walk and like you got anything to declare?

01:27:41.000 No.

01:27:41.000 Just like walk through, but realizing that eventually when I claim the money, um, they handle claim form, they go, okay, you're claiming 140,000.

01:27:51.000 Okay, thank you.

01:27:52.000 Have a good day.

01:27:53.000 Oh, you just have to claim it?

01:27:54.000 You have to claim it.

01:27:55.000 Because they want to send it, they want to send that receipt to the IRS.

01:27:59.000 Oh.

01:28:00.000 So when you go through customs.

01:28:02.000 I thought it was just a function of not being able to take that much cash and no.

01:28:06.000 No, when you declare it, when you declare it, there's that situation too, right?

01:28:10.000 But when everybody's gonna go, where'd you gonna have a mail?

01:28:13.000 Exactly.

01:28:16.000 I guess back then, could you even go?

01:28:18.000 No, you couldn't even like YouTube.

01:28:21.000 Oh no, there's you couldn't say, Look, this is me, man.

01:28:23.000 I just won't look on I awesome.

01:28:27.000 Exactly.

01:28:27.000 This is how I really did win.

01:28:29.000 Back then it was hard to get games, man.

01:28:32.000 You know what?

01:28:32.000 It the the like example example I give is like the corner video store next to the shutters that where all the porn was.

01:28:40.000 Yep.

01:28:40.000 Right next to that was the VHS tapes.

01:28:44.000 Everybody can hear it when you went through, you dirty pervert.

01:28:47.000 You gotta go see face and death.

01:28:49.000 That's it.

01:28:52.000 Uh yeah.

01:28:54.000 Yeah, that was right, literally, those were where the UFC tapes were, those were the pride tapes were.

01:28:58.000 I remember, I remember I was living in Hollywood, I just moved there, it was 94.

01:29:03.000 It was when UFC 2 was uh available on VHS.

01:29:06.000 Yeah.

01:29:07.000 So I'd heard about UFC one, but I didn't see it.

01:29:10.000 And then UFC two, I saw on tape.

01:29:12.000 I rented it from like some one of those video stores, and I was like, Holy shit, they did it.

01:29:18.000 I couldn't believe it.

01:29:19.000 I'm like, holy shit, they did it.

01:29:21.000 Because this was always this was the always the dream.

01:29:23.000 This was literally Bruce Lee's dream.

01:29:26.000 Yeah, Bruce Lee's conversation.

01:29:28.000 I mean, his whole he was the first guy to be completely outside of the norm in terms of like sticking to your style.

01:29:36.000 Yeah, because that you were like a traitor if you left certain kung fu styles or certain karate styles.

01:29:43.000 He was the first guy to say, no, use use what's useful.

01:29:46.000 Put it all together.

01:29:47.000 Judo Jean Label he got with Chuck Norris.

01:29:50.000 He got with all these other that was the first thing, like this symbol is a kanji for a dragon, right?

01:29:56.000 Bruce Lee was under the dragon, right?

01:29:57.000 Dragon is all these parts to make one mythical thing.

01:30:01.000 Yes.

01:30:02.000 And that's that enter the dragon.

01:30:03.000 That's that.

01:30:04.000 Bruce Lee was the first one.

01:30:05.000 If people don't realize it, he was the first one to go, fuck, this is incomplete.

01:30:08.000 Exactly.

01:30:09.000 And so fortuitous that he ran into judo Jean LaBelle.

01:30:14.000 Yeah.

01:30:14.000 And because I think once you grapple with that guy, you're like, oh my God, I'm fucking helpless.

01:30:19.000 And then it's just like, oh, this is super important.

01:30:22.000 Yeah.

01:30:22.000 You know, because like Gene was one of the first guys to ever have like a mixed fight.

01:30:27.000 So there was uh a guy who was a boxer and he had a judo gi on, and he chases the guy and gets the guy into a grappling exchange and then strangles him.

01:30:35.000 But it's guys, he had like a boxer versus judo.

01:30:39.000 You never saw that?

01:30:39.000 No.

01:30:40.000 See if you can find it, Jamie.

01:30:41.000 I want to say it's in the Soy back 60s?

01:30:46.000 So this is gonna be way back when.

01:30:48.000 Way back when he was so this is Mark Coleman and I did a clinic in North Carolina that was a judo Gene Labell clinic that he brought us in for.

01:31:00.000 What year is this?

01:31:01.000 Sixty-three.

01:31:02.000 Oh my god.

01:31:03.000 So Milo Savage.

01:31:05.000 So uh the boxer looks like he's okay, I remembered it wrong.

01:31:09.000 The boxer's bare knuckle.

01:31:11.000 And uh he made him wear a judo gi though, which is not said, fuck you know we're in this gi.

01:31:16.000 He probably doesn't understand that that's a weapon for Gene.

01:31:21.000 We didn't see him take him down.

01:31:23.000 Oh, that's just they show him taking him down?

01:31:26.000 Oh my god.

01:31:27.000 Oh, don't skip through it.

01:31:28.000 I'm gonna see the technique.

01:31:30.000 Here it is.

01:31:31.000 So Milo throws up, but that's it.

01:31:32.000 So once Gene's got a hold of him, it's over.

01:31:34.000 It's fucked over.

01:31:36.000 I mean, you don't know what that even feels like until you feel it.

01:31:40.000 Oh my god.

01:31:41.000 So I so I rolled with Higgin Machado, and uh Oh my god.

01:31:47.000 He's just putting him to sleep with a collar choke.

01:31:49.000 Oh my god.

01:31:51.000 Yeah, he's mangling them.

01:31:53.000 He's just mangling on this poor guy.

01:31:54.000 Oh my god.

01:31:55.000 And Gene is uh his style was very, very brutal.

01:31:59.000 Oh my god.

01:32:00.000 Like he had uh a very almost like catch wrestling style base submission He had a a lot of like very very painful moves that he would do on you.

01:32:13.000 Oh my god.

01:32:14.000 You imagine just not understanding what you're agreeing to.

01:32:18.000 No, he just got choked unconscious.

01:32:20.000 No, you I mean you you can't know until it happens.

01:32:22.000 I mean, I don't know how much cross-training people did.

01:32:25.000 I I bet he probably thought I was just gonna go in there and use my boxing.

01:32:28.000 Yeah, and I'll fuck him up.

01:32:29.000 Oh my gosh.

01:32:30.000 Yeah, it's just you know you don't know until you know, and then you go, wow.

01:32:34.000 But it's just it's so wild that even at the highest levels, like at the wrestler the level that you were wrestling at, a guy like Kurt Engel can go, Well, let's check it out another notch.

01:32:44.000 Another notch, man.

01:32:45.000 Yeah.

01:32:46.000 And that's the crazy part.

01:32:47.000 You always find like me being uh a fan of MMA and UFC and watching it, there's there's always an outlier, right?

01:32:56.000 Always always an outlier that you go, that doesn't make sense.

01:33:00.000 How the fuck is he getting to there?

01:33:03.000 Yep.

01:33:04.000 Right?

01:33:04.000 And that's like fuck he's just found a new way to do it.

01:33:08.000 He's found a new gear, he's found a new, you know, way to just go, okay, this is what this is what I'm gonna do.

01:33:14.000 It's like a Daven Goggins thing, oh, I'm just gonna run 125 miles.

01:33:17.000 Yeah.

01:33:18.000 Yeah, and to be able to maintain that drive, that's what's the probably one of the hardest things.

01:33:23.000 Cause you you have to have almost no rest, and you're maintaining an insane drive for years and years and years while sharks are nipping at your ankles.

01:33:33.000 They're all coming up.

01:33:34.000 Yeah, all chasing you.

01:33:35.000 All chasing, yeah.

01:33:36.000 And everybody's scary.

01:33:38.000 Well, I used to tell my fucking training partner, I go, fuck the getting there, that's one thing.

01:33:43.000 Fucking staying there, that's the secret.

01:33:45.000 Yeah.

01:33:46.000 It's that's the fucking it's so hard to stay at that level because everybody else is building on your your experience, right?

01:33:55.000 They're going, Well, this is what he did.

01:33:56.000 This is what he's incorporated, these are the things he's doing.

01:33:59.000 You know, I'm just gonna build on it.

01:34:01.000 Yeah, you know.

01:34:02.000 There's some weird rules to this fight that they had agreed upon too, and Gene LaBelle said that Savage had brass knuckles in his gloves.

01:34:09.000 Oh, what?

01:34:10.000 Yeah, I start reading like uh here, like the rules he couldn't punch or tackle, or sorry, he couldn't kick or tackle him.

01:34:18.000 And then in exchange for that, Savage offered to wear a judo gi.

01:34:23.000 A judo gi.

01:34:24.000 Oh, sorry, that's how they wrote it right.

01:34:26.000 Yeah, no, it's a judo gi.

01:34:29.000 That's new outfit.

01:34:31.000 Because they didn't know the difference.

01:34:33.000 Okay, so in the parent belief that Labelle was a Karatika.

01:34:38.000 So that's interesting.

01:34:41.000 So he made a rule that uh that Gene couldn't kick him.

01:34:46.000 So he thought that he was gonna use it.

01:34:48.000 He couldn't tackle him and you couldn't take him.

01:34:50.000 So kidnapped tack tackles or takedowns under the waist.

01:34:54.000 Ooh.

01:34:56.000 So you had to only hip toss him or only drag him to the ground.

01:35:00.000 And everything had to be above waist.

01:35:01.000 That's kind of silly.

01:35:02.000 Yeah, it's really silly.

01:35:03.000 Because it's one of those things where it's like it's like Greco.

01:35:06.000 Yeah.

01:35:06.000 They're doing like a bet.

01:35:08.000 Yeah.

01:35:09.000 A thousand dollar bet.

01:35:10.000 Yeah, to anyone who could prove that uh boxer would be beat by a martial artist, I think, in a straight fight.

01:35:15.000 Wow.

01:35:17.000 This is way ahead of its time.

01:35:18.000 I wonder, yeah, I wonder if the brass knuckles thing is true.

01:35:20.000 Yeah, I don't know.

01:35:21.000 I'll try to look that up.

01:35:22.000 According to LaBelle, another sort.

01:35:25.000 He was a bad motherfucker, Gene LaBelle.

01:35:27.000 Ahead of his time.

01:35:28.000 Again.

01:35:29.000 And again, that fortuitous meeting.

01:35:32.000 Him and Bruce Lee getting together with Bruce Lee was like, you know, the most famous martial artists on earth, the guys who's turning people on to martial arts, had the most open mind.

01:35:41.000 Yeah.

01:35:41.000 And had this philosophy of using everything that's useful, and then meets this guy and it's like, oh.

01:35:47.000 Here it is.

01:35:48.000 Yeah.

01:35:49.000 He would have loved MMA.

01:35:50.000 Oh my god, he would have fucking totally jazzed on it.

01:35:53.000 Oh my god, he'd be at every fight.

01:35:56.000 Yeah.

01:35:56.000 That's one of those things where where, you know, again, it's just somebody being ahead of their time.

01:36:01.000 Way.

01:36:01.000 Yeah, way ahead of his time.

01:36:02.000 But not just that, but like the first guy that became a world famous martial arts person.

01:36:09.000 Like there was no real world famous martial arts people before Bruce Lee.

01:36:14.000 I mean, you'd have to be into martial arts to know about martial arts.

01:36:18.000 Yeah.

01:36:19.000 But Bruce Lee, like everybody knew Bruce Lee.

01:36:22.000 Yeah.

01:36:23.000 Changed martial arts, like igniting martial arts all over the world.

01:36:28.000 Yeah.

01:36:29.000 Yeah.

01:36:30.000 I mean, it's one of those things where I look back on it and I've read like part of part of the history and stuff, and you understand it obviously way better than I do, but you know, like ahead of his time, just like when Gracie came along ahead of his time, you know, and in presenting something where he's knocking down all these stereotypes.

01:36:48.000 Yeah, and they had rigid stereotypes back then.

01:36:50.000 Oh, where you'd have you'd have to like get in gang fights to protect the style that you were doing.

01:36:55.000 Do you think that's a good idea?

01:36:56.000 Do you know?

01:36:56.000 Do you know, like, like so I started training at Beverly Hoods Jiu Jitsu Club, right?

01:37:00.000 In California.

01:37:02.000 I remember that spot.

01:37:03.000 So so uh so boss would have me, boss would have me out there, Avi Rubin is a guy that owned it, and I would go out there and I would teach wrestling a couple days out of the week.

01:37:11.000 It's how I got introduced to boss, Olec Tara of Markahuas and Pedro Hizo.

01:37:15.000 They were training out of there as well.

01:37:17.000 So you would get these guys, uh jujitsu guys, that would sit on the outside, wait until the other students were gone, draw all the blinds, lock the doors, and go, can you teach us wrestling?

01:37:32.000 Because they were so afraid that if they got caught there with me, it was like a traitor.

01:37:39.000 Oh, that's hilarious.

01:37:40.000 Yeah.

01:37:41.000 That's hilarious.

01:37:42.000 So you would get like That's so crazy.

01:37:45.000 It was one of the it didn't make any sense to me because you would figure sharing information would be better.

01:37:50.000 Yeah.

01:37:50.000 And it was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:37:53.000 Jiu Jitsu, we're not sharing shit.

01:37:55.000 We're not, you can't participate.

01:37:57.000 You can't.

01:37:57.000 It was so fucking archaic.

01:37:59.000 Like the outlook, and it's like looking back on it going, God, like, wow, that's dogma.

01:38:05.000 That's like this, like they didn't all have that though.

01:38:10.000 No, they didn't.

01:38:11.000 There's some guys who were open to teaching people everything, but there was definitely some schools for a while that were holding back techniques.

01:38:18.000 100%.

01:38:19.000 Like I remember when Hoyce Gracie, one of my friends said that when Hoyce Gracie uh caught Dan Severn in a triangle that uh he asked his instructor to show it to him, he's like, You're not ready for that.

01:38:30.000 I'm not gonna show you that.

01:38:31.000 Like, why wouldn't you just show him something that works?

01:38:33.000 I rerund that tape probably 50 times, and I still can't, I'm like, what the fuck is he doing?

01:38:39.000 Like, what the fuck is he doing?

01:38:40.000 Like you could figure it out.

01:38:42.000 Like what the fuck is he doing?

01:38:44.000 Because all of a sudden Severin goes from beating the shit out of him going, he's fucking tapping out.

01:38:48.000 Yeah, nuts.

01:38:49.000 We couldn't believe it.

01:38:50.000 I didn't I didn't know there's a name for it.

01:38:52.000 You could submit a guy off your back because you're legs.

01:38:55.000 Yeah, like what the fuck.

01:38:58.000 Like what if you look at it like the space where he had Dan's head and arm is like that big.

01:39:03.000 Yeah.

01:39:04.000 It's like that fucking like when you when you do a triangle like this, like that's not a very big space.

01:39:09.000 It's like they have fucking Dan because he's a big dude going, oh I get it.

01:39:12.000 And your legs, you could hold your legs in place for a long time.

01:39:16.000 Your legs carry you around all day.

01:39:18.000 Oh, that's like especially if you actually get that foot under the knee where it's like really locked in.

01:39:24.000 It's not pressing on the end of your foot.

01:39:26.000 You could hold on to that bitch for a long time. 1.00

01:39:28.000 Oh my god, and then he's like pulling on the fucking I'm like pulling on the fuck nuts. 0.96

01:39:33.000 Changed everybody.

01:39:33.000 Like, oh my God, you could win off your back.

01:39:35.000 It it literally, I'm st I still remember to this day just looking at it with my mouth hanging open, going.

01:39:41.000 Oh fuck.

01:39:42.000 I think it was one of the things that made MMA so popular.

01:39:45.000 Because Hoyce wasn't a big he didn't look like you.

01:39:49.000 Right?

01:39:49.000 So if you were dominating everybody, it would be like Jesus look out.

01:39:53.000 Yeah.

01:39:53.000 But Hoyce was uh just looked like an athlete.

01:39:56.000 Yeah.

01:39:56.000 Just like a thin, he was a hundred and seventy-five pounds.

01:39:59.000 Which is so crazy.

01:40:01.000 So you know what's a good thing.

01:40:02.000 So crazy.

01:40:03.000 I had a conversation with Hoyce probably about four or five years ago, and I'd never spoken with him outside of a competition or event or anything like that.

01:40:13.000 I cried.

01:40:14.000 He's such a good person.

01:40:16.000 Oh, he's a great guy.

01:40:16.000 He's a great guy.

01:40:17.000 Like he was so just like talking to him, and he was just so powerful and so inspirational, and it just having this conversation with him was just just like amazing.

01:40:28.000 I was just left the conversation, hung the phone about and going, wow, what a what a just an amazing human being.

01:40:34.000 Yeah, he's a He's a really good guy.

01:40:37.000 And the most important guy ever in terms of like the spread of MMA.

01:40:41.000 He's the most important guy.

01:40:42.000 Oh, but prolific.

01:40:43.000 Because he's the guy when he won the first one, and you looked at the way he did it, everybody's like, that guy?

01:40:48.000 Yeah.

01:40:49.000 And everyone was like, what's he doing?

01:40:50.000 Yeah.

01:40:51.000 No one knew what it was.

01:40:52.000 What is this stuff he's doing to these people?

01:40:55.000 Changed everything.

01:40:56.000 Yeah.

01:40:56.000 Made everybody instead, because it like it it went from this idea that it was uh just the most brutal person would win.

01:41:04.000 It was the tank abbots, like no no no.

01:41:06.000 There's this one guy, and he's doing everything with technique, and he's not physically imposing at all.

01:41:12.000 And he's handsome.

01:41:12.000 It didn't make yeah, he's good.

01:41:15.000 Handsome fella.

01:41:16.000 And he wears that fancy ghee thing, you know.

01:41:19.000 He looks like he's choking everybody out.

01:41:22.000 It's God it was incredible.

01:41:24.000 Watching that for the first time, I said like literally it was like, oh, this is fucking new.

01:41:29.000 Yeah.

01:41:29.000 Like this is I've because you've never seen it before.

01:41:32.000 No, nothing like it.

01:41:34.000 And then this the sport explodes.

01:41:36.000 But the sport was getting fucked so hard back then by all these organizations that didn't want it ever to become sanctioned.

01:41:43.000 Yeah.

01:41:43.000 Like because boxing was very threatened by it, and everybody had businesses with people, and then there was there was so much bullshit that kept it like it it was out of New York until like ten years ago.

01:41:54.000 So we were we were on um, me and my brothers were on our way to see uh a UFC event in New York, and it got cancelled and it got moved down south.

01:42:06.000 Yes, to Dothan, Alabama.

01:42:08.000 Yes, UFC twelve.

01:42:09.000 Yeah.

01:42:09.000 We're on our way, we were on our way to go see it.

01:42:12.000 Uh I was on my way to work at it.

01:42:14.000 Oh my god.

01:42:15.000 That was the first one I was gonna work at.

01:42:16.000 Oh my god.

01:42:17.000 Yeah, and it got moved.

01:42:18.000 Yeah, it got moved and so we New York was like, nope.

01:42:21.000 Nope, ain't having it, ain't having it happening.

01:42:24.000 Well, they they kept it out for the longest time though.

01:42:27.000 There was the guy who took who was really fighting to keep the UFC out of New York eventually got he got brought up on corruption charges.

01:42:35.000 No.

01:42:36.000 Yeah.

01:42:37.000 Shocker.

01:42:37.000 Yeah it was like it had more to do with like unions and the fact that Zufa who owned it, they also uh owned hotels.

01:42:45.000 And didn't have unions.

01:42:46.000 Exactly.

01:42:47.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:42:48.000 So there was a lot.

01:42:49.000 A lot going on.

01:42:50.000 A lot to make it.

01:42:51.000 You know, I went you know, I went to the first sanctioned uh the UFC flew me out to go to in New Jersey when they had their main main main card in in New Jersey.

01:43:00.000 Uh huh.

01:43:00.000 Their first big event that was sanctioned by the New Jersey Boxing Commission uh with Tito and um they flew me out to that event.

01:43:09.000 Oh wow.

01:43:10.000 Yeah.

01:43:10.000 Yeah, flew me out to that event.

01:43:12.000 And actually, this is this is at the time uh they offered me to fight uh after that they offered me to fight Pete Williams.

01:43:20.000 Oh and it was one of those where they go, Yeah, we're offered to fight Pete Williams.

01:43:25.000 You might have to take a little bit of pay cut, but you have to believe in what we're doing, and I'm like, okay, what's the bake out.

01:43:30.000 They're like, well, we'll give you like an appearance fee of like 15 grand.

01:43:34.000 To fight?

01:43:35.000 To fight.

01:43:36.000 Fifteen grand?

01:43:37.000 To show up.

01:43:38.000 And then it would be doubled if I won.

01:43:40.000 And I'm like, I'm making, you know, a lot more in Japan.

01:43:44.000 Like, why would I go do it?

01:43:46.000 Like, well.

01:43:48.000 That's crazy.

01:43:49.000 Yeah.

01:43:50.000 That's a terrible offer.

01:43:52.000 So that's one of the worst offers I've ever heard.

01:43:55.000 And it's one where where the whole idea behind it would be, hey, we just if you believe in us and you believe in directors you're going, look, we just got sanctioned in New Jersey, right?

01:44:04.000 Yeah.

01:44:05.000 So that's the the steps we're taking to move this to Vegas and to do this.

01:44:12.000 And in one is like, you know, like most fighters, it's like I have X amount of fights and I don't have more.

01:44:18.000 Right.

01:44:19.000 I only have X. So that would have been one off my X number.

01:44:22.000 Right.

01:44:22.000 And I'm like, oh man, I can't do it.

01:44:24.000 And they only ask once.

01:44:27.000 At that time, the UFC was like, we're gonna ask once.

01:44:30.000 And that's it.

01:44:31.000 Okay.

01:44:31.000 Yeah.

01:44:33.000 Just leaving that alone.

01:44:34.000 Just leave that one alone. 1.00

01:44:35.000 That one's one of those like, okay.

01:44:36.000 Yeah.

01:44:37.000 Why not?

01:44:37.000 Why not ask me a second time?

01:44:38.000 Why are we negotiating?

01:44:39.000 I don't know.

01:44:40.000 Um if you were if you were at Pride then, right?

01:44:44.000 So like what what year are we talking about?

01:44:46.000 Uh 2002.

01:44:48.000 Okay.

01:44:48.000 So this was in the UFC was still hemorrhaging money.

01:44:51.000 Yeah.

01:44:51.000 And still that crazy.

01:44:53.000 And would you want to still Oh gosh, man?

01:44:56.000 It should have failed.

01:44:57.000 It could have.

01:44:58.000 I mean, one is they didn't have charge of the channel.

01:45:00.000 Yeah, if anybody else was crazy, they had no idea how much money you were getting in Japan.

01:45:05.000 Oh, they had no clue.

01:45:06.000 They had no clue.

01:45:07.000 That's cool.

01:45:07.000 So you know what's crazy with Japan?

01:45:09.000 Here's what I ended up doing.

01:45:10.000 I said, listen, I said, they said, what do you need?

01:45:13.000 And I said, I need consistency.

01:45:15.000 And they go, okay, what does that look like?

01:45:17.000 And I said, pay me X dollars per month.

01:45:21.000 And then every time I fight, pay me a bonus on top of that.

01:45:24.000 And they go, okay.

01:45:26.000 How much do you need?

01:45:27.000 And I said, okay, I need this amount per month.

01:45:29.000 And they go, okay.

01:45:32.000 And that was just another stabilizing thing where I knew that every month I had X amount of dollars coming in that I could pay my bills.

01:45:40.000 I could do my stuff, not worry about that, because it allowed me to transition to like it's not a hobby.

01:45:46.000 Right.

01:45:46.000 You know, I'm not like fighting, and then I go to work, you know, it's like this is what I do for a living.

01:45:51.000 Yeah.

01:45:52.000 That was the uh the point of thinking about money investment.

01:45:56.000 Like by giving them more money and they get better camps.

01:45:59.000 Wouldn't you think the product would be better?

01:46:02.000 Yeah.

01:46:02.000 Like I mean, I don't like to be thinking of people as products, but it is a good idea.

01:46:07.000 Program the program.

01:46:09.000 Now I guess you don't have to pay for it.

01:46:10.000 You're gonna just pay for the subscription to Paramount, which is pretty badass.

01:46:14.000 Yeah.

01:46:14.000 Where you don't have to pay for a pay per view every time.

01:46:17.000 But you know, if they had more money, they'd be able to do a better camp.

01:46:21.000 They'd be in better shape.

01:46:23.000 All the way around all the way around.

01:46:25.000 They they'd be better recovered, they have better nutrition.

01:46:27.000 It it it's investing in what your product is.

01:46:31.000 And your product is is elite athletes.

01:46:34.000 Elite athletes.

01:46:35.000 In order to get elite athletes, they need funding.

01:46:39.000 Right.

01:46:40.000 They need tools.

01:46:41.000 The only way they can get tools is through money.

01:46:43.000 You know, better coaches, better recovery facilities.

01:46:46.000 But and and I don't know the the the you know, I obviously let me ask you this.

01:46:51.000 If you're if you were like looking, like say if your son wanted to start fighting or someone wanted to look to you would you if you were giving a young fighter advice, would you say go right into the UFC?

01:47:02.000 Or would you say, no, the best case scenario is go into another organization like the PFL, build build your style up, yeah, build it up on maybe a slow little slightly lower level of competition, although not necessarily still elite guys.

01:47:21.000 Submission grappling.

01:47:22.000 That's uh literally I go, go you you fundamentally you need to build a base of what you what you're gonna become, right?

01:47:29.000 So submission grappling ADCC, if a young kid, like 16, 17 year old kid, even 18, 19, 20 year old kid, I'd go, you need submission grappling because you can participate in those at a competitive level that teaches you how to compete.

01:47:42.000 It teaches you how to prepare to compete, right?

01:47:46.000 And it teaches you without the impact of striking and punching and all of this.

01:47:52.000 So that's like the first foundational piece.

01:47:55.000 And this is just my opinion, right?

01:47:57.000 Foundationally is like if you you have to have uh A mechanism out there which allows you to compete without having the physical impact that fighting does.

01:48:07.000 So that would be the first thing.

01:48:08.000 Like submission grappling, ADCC stuff.

01:48:11.000 You know, all of that really teaches you how to compete to train to compete.

01:48:15.000 And it starts building that base.

01:48:17.000 And then you start adding pieces in, going, okay, I understand this.

01:48:21.000 Let's add the striking components into it now.

01:48:23.000 And let's do these little like PFLs, or let's do this, let's do that.

01:48:27.000 And it just allows you to build out something where you're not just throwing into the fire.

01:48:32.000 Yeah.

01:48:32.000 Because that shit doesn't work.

01:48:34.000 I mean, the fighters have become so good now that you can't just throw somebody in there because it fu you get fucked up, it might fuck your confidence up and you go, I just I'm done.

01:48:44.000 I ain't ever doing this.

01:48:45.000 Yeah, you could definitely reach an opponent that you shouldn't be reaching.

01:48:48.000 Yeah, for sure.

01:48:49.000 For sure.

01:48:50.000 I wonder that if you also, if you build yourself up in another organization, then obviously you have at least a name and the hardcore fans know who you are.

01:49:00.000 So like uh Rainier De Ritter is another example.

01:49:03.000 Okay, who's uh elite right now?

01:49:06.000 It I I can't I I say middleweight, but I can't believe he's really a middleweight.

01:49:10.000 He's so fucking big.

01:49:11.000 But he's a fantastic grappler, but he was already a champion in one, so he's a champion in one FC, and then when he comes over to America and he starts fighting for the UFC, people are already hyped for he's like immediately getting tossed in there with Kevin Holland, immediately getting tossed in there with like very elite fighters.

01:49:32.000 And so, like maybe there's uh uh an argument for if you were like managing a fighter, saying, like, d don't just if you're if you fight well in the UFC, you might be three fights in and in the waters that you really can't swim in.

01:49:44.000 Yeah, because the the level gets high very fast.

01:49:47.000 It does, it does.

01:49:47.000 Like maybe you'd be better off getting a f uh a few years in at a different level of competition to really tighten your skills up and make sure that when you finally do it.

01:49:59.000 You see, you've been bringside for this.

01:50:01.000 You see when a young fighter, when he clicks and he gets it.

01:50:05.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:50:06.000 And he understands how to compete at that level, it's brilliant.

01:50:10.000 It's amazing.

01:50:11.000 Like watching it, you're like, oh my god, he's it like he's in there.

01:50:14.000 Oh my god, it like gives me goosebumps to think about it because it's that moments that I can look at and go, oh fuck.

01:50:20.000 And you know, it's a beautiful creation, it's like the a testament to the amount of hours worked, like you know it better than anybody alive.

01:50:29.000 When you see someone perform at like a super elite championship level, you go, you know how hard that motherfucker had to work to get to what you're seeing right now.

01:50:37.000 It's it's even and this just brought this up uh just as a thing, like DJ playing me in the movie.

01:50:44.000 You just don't get there.

01:50:46.000 Right, right.

01:50:47.000 It doesn't happen by magic, right?

01:50:48.000 Right, right, right.

01:50:48.000 That's fucking work.

01:50:49.000 That's work for him to become work.

01:50:52.000 Oh my god, he became you.

01:50:54.000 Like he got all of your mannerisms down, like down, not like an assimile, no facsimile, no, like down like creepy down.

01:51:02.000 Like he like even said he fucking walks like me.

01:51:05.000 He even got my little fucking walk.

01:51:07.000 I'm like, you man.

01:51:09.000 I'm like where like where do you hire a walk coach?

01:51:13.000 Well, the crazy thing is like that story was made for him.

01:51:16.000 Yeah, it was that it was made for him because you have to be that big to sell that, yeah.

01:51:21.000 And you can't get that big that quick.

01:51:25.000 No, we so we were talking about this the other day, uh uh with DJ is that like there's like uh you know, through the history of like you know, movie making, there's been actors that have like I'm getting big, and they go eat you know, Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

01:51:38.000 And then there's like watching the whole transition of what DJ was doing and how he's like, Well, I just don't need to be big because that's one thing.

01:51:46.000 I need to be big, but put on quality of what I'm doing, and so it's these fast twitch, it's like a wrestler, fast twitch fibers.

01:51:52.000 You look at him and go, Oh shit, he just didn't get big, he put on specific muscle for what he was doing, you know, and to be able to go through everything and understand going, he secluded himself.

01:52:03.000 He literally locked himself away uh for 11 weeks up in Vancouver and didn't bring his family up, which I guess he normally does, and just went through his training camp.

01:52:14.000 Jesus.

01:52:15.000 Like going, like going fuck, okay.

01:52:18.000 You know, like every day, same routine, get up, do the same routine, do this.

01:52:22.000 I was up there for fight week, got all of his stunt guys all like this is this is foundationally, because I'm not gonna teach him wrestling, 25 years of wrestling and Fucking a month, right?

01:52:31.000 Or two weeks or a week or an hour.

01:52:33.000 It's like, okay, but let's get foundational pieces, right?

01:52:37.000 Because the people are gonna watch it, they can look at the film and tell whether you put the work in or not.

01:52:43.000 Right.

01:52:43.000 Especially someone like you.

01:52:45.000 Oh God, man.

01:52:46.000 It was one where where that was the biggest deal uh for Benny is to be able to shoot these scenes without a stunt double.

01:52:53.000 Going how because it just detracts from what he's trying to do as a filmmaker.

01:52:58.000 Right.

01:52:58.000 How do you shoot this whole entire well uh well I'm gonna give DJ foundational pieces of like changing your level for a double, here's where you get and like certain foundational pieces you have to have, and then like I told them once you get to a certain point, everything from that point on is your own.

01:53:15.000 It's like when you watch wrestlers going, oh he sh changes his level, and then all these little nuances, that's individual.

01:53:21.000 That's individualized.

01:53:22.000 Like Michael Jordan, it's like a the structure for a jump shot's the same, right?

01:53:26.000 But all these little nuances of like how to get to the position to hit a jump shot, that's Michael Jordan.

01:53:32.000 Right.

01:53:33.000 So I go, like a f like when I shoot a double leg, like lowering your level, that's foundational, fundamental, right?

01:53:39.000 It's like attacking without my arms out in tight.

01:53:42.000 That's fundamental.

01:53:43.000 But once I hit the person with with the attack, right?

01:53:46.000 Double egg, everything from that point going on is my own.

01:53:49.000 Whether I tip him this way, tilt him this way, run them for run them backwards, sit down, change that it's all these little new I go, we need to do foundational and then you're good.

01:54:00.000 So I so it was a lot of work for him to get to that foundational point.

01:54:04.000 And uh once he got there, it's like, okay, you're good.

01:54:07.000 It looked very realistic.

01:54:08.000 The fight scenes were excellent.

01:54:09.000 Yeah.

01:54:10.000 It was like really well done to the point where it looked like the historical fight.

01:54:14.000 Yeah, they did, and again, this is Benny, you know, just like him and how he wanted to shoot it.

01:54:20.000 And I really appreciate that because it's like that's hard to do.

01:54:23.000 It's hard to uh hard to really capture.

01:54:25.000 Like you watch a documentary or a doc you drama rather on a person's real life when that person's a famous person like yourself, and I've seen you compete for decades.

01:54:35.000 I'm like, I've seen it.

01:54:36.000 I know I remember those fights.

01:54:38.000 They got it.

01:54:38.000 They got it real close, man.

01:54:40.000 To the point like, wow.

01:54:41.000 Yeah.

01:54:42.000 This is uh it's really well done.

01:54:44.000 And it also like it looks realistic.

01:54:47.000 It doesn't look, you know, sometimes fights look a little corny.

01:54:50.000 Oh my god, that was the one thing we're talking about going there's always gonna be a space for a Rocky fight.

01:54:55.000 Sure, right?

01:54:56.000 Sure.

01:54:57.000 I literally nothing wrong with Rocky.

01:54:59.000 Nothing wrong at all, but that's not the film they were shooting.

01:55:01.000 They were shooting like this is how do we create something that pays homage to?

01:55:07.000 Yeah.

01:55:07.000 And something you can build off of and somebody can look at and go, Oh wow.

01:55:12.000 I think it's important if we're talking about Rocky though, we have to say Rocky two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten, whatever the fuck they got to, but Rocky one was real.

01:55:21.000 Oh my god, that was I I literally I remember being in the theater and literally watch it and just like as a kid, yeah, watching it and like I I wanted to be Rocky.

01:55:31.000 Dude, I drank a raw egg and I ran around the block as I got home.

01:55:34.000 Oh yeah.

01:55:34.000 One hundred fucking percent.

01:55:36.000 I mean, you're like that's you're like, holy shit.

01:55:39.000 Yeah, that was a great movie.

01:55:41.000 Oh, and they tried to push him out.

01:55:42.000 He didn't they didn't want him to play the lead.

01:55:45.000 Who wrote that movie?

01:55:46.000 Oh my god, he won an Oscar for that, right?

01:55:48.000 It was amazing.

01:55:49.000 Yeah, it's a great movie, and it's a weird movie.

01:55:52.000 It's a weird it is, it is because that that's that's the classic underdog, yeah, overachiever, you know, but he doesn't win.

01:56:01.000 There are guys like that, man, and that's what's crazy.

01:56:04.000 There's guys that like are hyper fucking talented, but for whatever reason, they just never Buster Douglas Yeah, oh my god, it yeah, Buster Douglas.

01:56:13.000 Buster Douglas got it together for one fight against Mike Tyson and pieced him up and didn't artistically.

01:56:19.000 Yeah.

01:56:20.000 He was it was hitting with a jab followed by a left hook, just wap whap.

01:56:24.000 And it was beautiful.

01:56:26.000 The movement wasn't that in Tokyo.

01:56:29.000 I believe it was.

01:56:30.000 Yeah, Tokyo Dome.

01:56:31.000 Yeah, I believe you're right.

01:56:32.000 Yeah.

01:56:33.000 That was one of the craziest.

01:56:37.000 I'll never forget that.

01:56:38.000 I'll never forget that.

01:56:40.000 Because his mama died.

01:56:41.000 Yeah.

01:56:41.000 And he just got it together for this one fight.

01:56:44.000 Wow.

01:56:45.000 And if it was one fight, he showed everybody what he had.

01:56:47.000 Yeah, it was amazing.

01:56:48.000 Never to be repeated.

01:56:49.000 Never and then Holyfield knocked him out in the next fight.

01:56:52.000 Yeah, gosh damn.

01:56:54.000 But like that one fight, man, he got it together, and you go, wow.

01:56:58.000 So there's guys like uh that Out there that that are supremely talented, but for whatever reason they just never sustain, never can keep it together.

01:57:07.000 It's a mental thing.

01:57:09.000 I mean, all of it is, right?

01:57:10.000 I mean, just like you're saying, like the like the outliers, it's a mental thing that they have that uh a level or a gear they can get to that everybody else just can't.

01:57:20.000 It it has to be, or it there's there's gotta be something, something they're doing that's so different.

01:57:26.000 And everybody's trying to figure it out.

01:57:28.000 Like, what is he doing?

01:57:29.000 Yeah, what is and it seems to boil down to almost always dedication.

01:57:34.000 It's like how dedicated are you to it?

01:57:36.000 And are you so dedicated that you're really willing to objectively look at what you do good and what you not so good and and and change that and fix it and and really tighten down your diet and really get like get religious with your subject.

01:57:51.000 That's the ability um to be able to be just have the self-perspective, right?

01:57:58.000 Like this in-depth honesty.

01:58:00.000 Because a lot of it, like I I literally before Chris Campbell, right?

01:58:04.000 I was just talking about, I thought I was training fucking hard.

01:58:07.000 I thought I fucked in I thought like I'm training fucking hard.

01:58:10.000 And he just grabbed me by the hand and he goes, No, let me show you what hard is, right?

01:58:15.000 And so it was this routine where it's like it's in college, my senior year, 6 a.m., I get up.

01:58:21.000 He would pick me up, and I wouldn't be a minute late.

01:58:24.000 I had a chair that I put next to the door that I slept in for the last because one time being late, he just throttled me.

01:58:32.000 And I'm like, I ain't never happened again.

01:58:34.000 I ain't fucking ever happening again, man.

01:58:37.000 He slept in this chair.

01:58:38.000 Slept in the chair next to the door, you know, and be like, all right, fucking because he would just give two beeps, beep beep, and you know, all right, I'm up, you know, and fucking out the front door.

01:58:47.000 We go to the gym, we'd train in the morning, so we'd do wrestling drills, stuff like that, and then I would do cardio or strength.

01:58:54.000 He would go to work, he was a full-time attorney, he'd go to work all day.

01:58:57.000 I would start practicing with the the wrestling team, warm up, and then I'd wait for him to get off of work five o'clock, and then we train for a couple hours and then get up and repeat.

01:59:07.000 But it's this level of intensity with everything had intention.

01:59:11.000 There wasn't anything that was left without intent.

01:59:13.000 Right.

01:59:14.000 You know, from how we drilled, how we trained, everything was very focused and intentional.

01:59:19.000 There wasn't anything like I'm gonna do this today.

01:59:21.000 You know, it's like, no, no, no, no, no.

01:59:24.000 Everything has intention.

01:59:25.000 This is why you're doing this.

01:59:28.000 This is why you're doing that.

01:59:30.000 This is why you're doing this.

01:59:31.000 And that's the difference.

01:59:32.000 That's the difference.

01:59:33.000 Yeah.

01:59:34.000 It's this intention of every single thing you're doing has this intention for an end purpose.

01:59:42.000 You know who Gordon Ryan is, right?

01:59:44.000 Yeah.

01:59:44.000 That's Gordon's belt up there.

01:59:46.000 When Gordon trains 365 days a year.

01:59:49.000 Yeah.

01:59:50.000 He he doesn't take any days off unless he's injured.

01:59:52.000 And if he's injured, he he'll still be on the mats watching.

01:59:56.000 Watches everybody.

01:59:57.000 He says, like, I'm still thinking about jujitsu.

02:00:00.000 And it's not just training like hard sparring, it's going over technique, going over counters, tape style of it.

02:00:07.000 All day.

02:00:08.000 And that's that is somebody who's living their life intentional, right?

02:00:13.000 Everything has a and purpose.

02:00:15.000 Everything.

02:00:15.000 And it's why he's been able to do what he's been able to do.

02:00:18.000 I mean, I've looked at it going, if he existed when I was doing ADCC, I would have never won.

02:00:23.000 It's just a d it's just a different level.

02:00:26.000 And and that's that's a skill set I had wrestling, but he's got a skill set that incorporates that plus 20 things more.

02:00:33.000 And it's nuts because he gives away the formula.

02:00:36.000 He's like, but no one's willing to do it.

02:00:38.000 No.

02:00:38.000 He's like, and he just says it with confidence.

02:00:41.000 He he goes, uh I put on all my videos out there for free.

02:00:47.000 Isn't that fucking funny though?

02:00:49.000 I mean, he put he puts techniques up all the time, shows you how to do stuff.

02:00:52.000 And he sells DVDs still.

02:00:54.000 It makes millions just selling instructions.

02:00:56.000 Because he's that's how much he knows about Jiu Jitsu.

02:00:59.000 Oh my gosh.

02:01:00.000 And he's only 30.

02:01:01.000 Yeah.

02:01:02.000 And he's uh everybody considers him the greatest of all time.

02:01:05.000 You know what's crazy?

02:01:06.000 It's funny this brought this up.

02:01:07.000 So when uh DJ and I connected again in 2023, when this got kicked off green light for the film, he sends me this picture of Panther Videos, Panther uh martial arts, seek and destroy videos.

02:01:24.000 That are in a VHS tape.

02:01:25.000 He's got like 10 of them in the picture, right?

02:01:28.000 And it's Mark Kerr, seek and destroy.

02:01:31.000 Benny had found them and sent them to DJ, and he's like, study him.

02:01:36.000 So it's this video tape series that I did for Panther production here it is.

02:01:43.000 So this is one of these things.

02:01:44.000 You can destroy bar fighting techniques.

02:01:47.000 Yep.

02:01:48.000 And so DJ sends me this picture, and it was fucking I was literally like, okay, I'm in.

02:01:55.000 Dude, look at the size of you.

02:01:57.000 You look like a superhero.

02:01:59.000 Oh, dude.

02:01:59.000 I had such this is I call it phone.

02:02:03.000 I call it phone booth fighting.

02:02:05.000 Right.

02:02:05.000 Like I like and it's like I could in a very small space, I could generate a fucking shit ton of power.

02:02:12.000 Oh, dude, you were a freak.

02:02:13.000 Shit ton of power.

02:02:14.000 You were a legitimate freak.

02:02:15.000 And I remember like watching you fight the first time, I was like, that's gonna be a real problem.

02:02:20.000 That's gonna be a real problem.

02:02:23.000 What do you do with that?

02:02:25.000 It's one thing that you're giant, but it's also that you got elite wrestling skills on top of that.

02:02:29.000 Like, oh shit.

02:02:31.000 Yeah.

02:02:31.000 This this might be a problem.

02:02:32.000 Yeah.

02:02:32.000 Oh my god.

02:02:33.000 All these dudes in karate geese are like, God damn it.

02:02:35.000 Yeah.

02:02:36.000 Oh my gosh, you're like, Phil, I'm turning in my gi.

02:02:38.000 And then the gi, the pro the problem with the ghee is they can anyone can grab it. 0.57

02:02:41.000 Yeah.

02:02:42.000 You know, it makes wrestling even easier.

02:02:43.000 If you like if you allowed the gi still, I think there'd probably be a few people that get choked out.

02:02:48.000 But also a lot of people get taken down a lot easier.

02:02:52.000 Yeah.

02:02:52.000 So even so you can grab the gi.

02:02:54.000 Hig and Machado.

02:02:57.000 I've rolled with him.

02:02:58.000 Right.

02:02:58.000 Uh Jean-Jacques and Higgin.

02:03:00.000 And Higgin it was like giving him an extra set of hands.

02:03:03.000 Yeah.

02:03:03.000 I f I go, dude.

02:03:05.000 I literally, so the so on Torrance, when I've trained with him, there's like uh there's one room and then another room, and there's a door between them, and so he had half of his class kind of all stacked up in the door watching us train, and it was like five minutes with a gi, and I just looked at Higgin and I go, I ain't never fucking wearing this thing again.

02:03:25.000 Take the ghee off, man.

02:03:26.000 Fuck it.

02:03:27.000 Here, have it back.

02:03:31.000 It's a weapon.

02:03:31.000 Oh my god.

02:03:32.000 Yeah, it's a weapon.

02:03:33.000 Especially the guy who's got really good collar chokes.

02:03:35.000 Those guys are terrifying.

02:03:36.000 They get that thumb behind your neck and you're like, oh Christ.

02:03:39.000 It was like he was getting me in position, he would tie up an arm like with a ghee, and then be like, fuck now. 0.98

02:03:45.000 He's got like what the fuck, dude.

02:03:48.000 It's a totally different thing.

02:03:49.000 You have to really be aware of grips and pos and you gotta you can't explode your way out of stuff.

02:03:54.000 That's the that's what the argument for the ghee is defensively, that you have to get out of every position with technique. 0.99

02:04:01.000 You can't just pull your arm out, your arm's stuck, so you have to figure out the right way to do this.

02:04:07.000 Yeah, where you don't expose yourself because they have too much friction.

02:04:10.000 Oh, it's been a minute since I've been like no friction.

02:04:14.000 Yeah, I mean, you literally it's all friction.

02:04:17.000 I mean, it's like you know slip.

02:04:18.000 It's yeah, it's a problem.

02:04:20.000 If you have one, but the thing, Eddie Bravo always used to say, why would you want to train in that for MMA though?

02:04:27.000 He's like, that would be crazy.

02:04:28.000 That would be like saying if you play racquetball, you're gonna be better at tennis.

02:04:31.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:04:32.000 No, play tennis.

02:04:33.000 You have to play tennis at an elite level.

02:04:34.000 You should be you all your grips should be based on control of the body, gable grips and underhooks and overhooks, and like you you can't you're because that's the one thing that we saw with a lot of jujitsu guys in the early days.

02:04:47.000 They were so used to grabbing collars and grabbing sleeves, yeah, that when they went to the ground, they lost 30% of their game.

02:04:53.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:04:54.000 And that's again, that's the evolution of it's why like foundationally geeless grappling, right?

02:05:02.000 Because it just teaches you fundamentally what you're about to do if you're gonna get an MMA.

02:05:06.000 Yes, right, for sure.

02:05:07.000 Foundationally, it's like that's where you need to start.

02:05:10.000 Yeah, I think so.

02:05:11.000 You know, it cuts even to the point where it's like you have because you have a lot of wrestling in there and you have a lot of moves.

02:05:18.000 Um like my first times at Abu Dhabi, I can't the only thing I kept saying is small moves, small moves, small moves.

02:05:23.000 Like I didn't like like I literally, if I felt uncomfortable, it was these small tiny moves.

02:05:27.000 Right.

02:05:28.000 You know, it wasn't this like explosion because it's like fuck, I don't know what I'm gonna explode into.

02:05:32.000 Right, right.

02:05:33.000 You know, so it's foundationally, it's it's yeah, ghys are it's a different sport. 0.99

02:05:38.000 It's a totally different sport, but I think there's something to be gained from cross-training with the ghee. 1.00

02:05:44.000 I think the ghee is like it's a fun thing to do, and in most street fights, the realistic thing is you're gonna be wearing clothes.

02:05:49.000 Yeah, especially if you're fighting in a place that has a where people are wearing winter coats.

02:05:53.000 Oh god, that'd be amazing.

02:05:55.000 So much stuff.

02:05:56.000 Smorgish board, so many things to choose from, So much control available.

02:06:02.000 But for the if you if you really ever wanted to think about competing, I would say just go right into wrestling.

02:06:07.000 Wrestling and jujitsu learn that stuff first.

02:06:10.000 That's foundational.

02:06:11.000 You have to.

02:06:12.000 God man, I can't believe you've been involved in this this long, yo.

02:06:15.000 I know it's so long.

02:06:16.000 I mean, you're a spectator to history.

02:06:19.000 I know.

02:06:20.000 I feel super lucky.

02:06:21.000 Incredibly fortunate.

02:06:23.000 You know what I felt the most fortunate?

02:06:25.000 During COVID.

02:06:26.000 Because everything was locked down.

02:06:28.000 You couldn't do anything, but the UFC was still putting on shows and you'd get tested and you'd have to get tested when you got there.

02:06:33.000 Yeah.

02:06:34.000 Everybody was wearing a mask until you sit down next to each other.

02:06:36.000 But we were in the Apex Center.

02:06:39.000 And I got to watch like world championship fights with no audience.

02:06:44.000 I was like, this is crazy.

02:06:46.000 And there's only one of maybe maybe there's a hundred people in the whole room that are getting to watch these fights.

02:06:51.000 Like when we saw Stepe fight Francis and Garrett when Francis beat him for the world title.

02:06:56.000 There was no one in that room, man.

02:06:57.000 Wow.

02:06:58.000 It's crazy to watch.

02:07:00.000 If you watch it today, it's such a weird video because it's an elite performance by Francis in his prime where he's like seeking destroy going after Steve A patient.

02:07:11.000 You know, it's when DC started calling him patient Francis.

02:07:14.000 Yeah.

02:07:14.000 And dude, there's no crowd.

02:07:15.000 And it's kind of eerie.

02:07:17.000 Wow.

02:07:17.000 It's eerie.

02:07:18.000 Cause when he KOs him and he star you hear people go, whoa, oh you're like, it's like people kind of freaked out.

02:07:24.000 Wow.

02:07:25.000 That's that's unique.

02:07:28.000 It's very unique.

02:07:29.000 And I was like, wow, there's so few people that get to be here.

02:07:33.000 Oh my gosh, yeah.

02:07:34.000 While this fight is happening.

02:07:36.000 Like when Justin Gagey fought Tony Ferguson.

02:07:38.000 Oh my god.

02:07:40.000 Wow.

02:07:41.000 The arena was completely empty.

02:07:43.000 It was only the UFC crew and only the people that were working around with the with the UFC.

02:07:48.000 Oh my gosh.

02:07:49.000 There was no crowd.

02:07:50.000 Wow.

02:07:51.000 And if you watch that today, it's bizarre.

02:07:53.000 Oh my god.

02:07:54.000 So I even thought like my first fights in Japan, how quiet the crowd was.

02:07:59.000 But not that quiet.

02:08:00.000 There was no one there.

02:08:01.000 The Justin Gagey Tony Ferguson fight, there might have been a I don't know, a hundred people, two hundred people in the whole fucking arena.

02:08:08.000 It was nuts.

02:08:09.000 It was like so spooky.

02:08:12.000 It was it was eerie because you the you heard the slaps of the of the punches and kicks way different.

02:08:20.000 Oh, I bet.

02:08:20.000 Because there's no no people cheering.

02:08:22.000 Because there's always people cheering.

02:08:23.000 Yeah.

02:08:24.000 It's always this background noise.

02:08:25.000 The UFC like ha ha and you hear thuds and stuff, and I hear it a little better than most people because I'm wearing the headphones and the microphones are in the but you don't hear it like you hear it when there's an empty arena.

02:08:36.000 Wow, there's an empty arena.

02:08:38.000 You hear the thugs.

02:08:39.000 I need to go back and watch that to see if I can't.

02:08:43.000 Oh my god.

02:08:44.000 So that's so I've sat there with with a group of people that like watching somebody check a kick in here shin on shin and just me, nobody in the room getting it but me going, Oh, yeah, having it like ow, I don't care.

02:08:58.000 Like I don't care that fucking hurt.

02:09:00.000 That hurt I don't care.

02:09:02.000 You can poker face that shit all you want.

02:09:03.000 Oh, dude, it fucking hurt.

02:09:05.000 That's like a big fuck you.

02:09:06.000 Like, I know that hurt, dude.

02:09:08.000 I know that hurt.

02:09:09.000 I know that hurt.

02:09:10.000 I mean, the the the COVID times were dark times, but it did make me feel very fortunate to be working for the UFC because to be there live as a you know, a person who's like just love this sport since it first started.

02:09:24.000 To be there live while those fights were going on, I'm like, this is nuts.

02:09:28.000 That is just one of those where uh you know, again, money can't buy that.

02:09:32.000 I mean, it's just one of those experiences like uh like I've had a couple through this process of filmmaking where it's like n no money on earth could buy that experience.

02:09:41.000 Like in Venice, standing there, like literally like I'm crying because it like I said, it was at the end of that, it was like therapy.

02:09:48.000 Watch watching me and and literally settling into like wow, man, I was a dick.

02:09:53.000 You know, I just was really hard on everybody around me.

02:09:56.000 And then having Benny next to me, DJ next to me, feeling their emotions and feeling DJ's emotions, because they never experienced anything like it either.

02:10:06.000 You know?

02:10:06.000 Well, I think anybody trying to do what you were trying to do is gotta be a bit of a dick.

02:10:12.000 I don't think I don't think as nice as you were and you were always super friendly.

02:10:18.000 There's you're doing something that's really insane.

02:10:21.000 Yeah.

02:10:21.000 You know, you're you're you're cage fighting for a living in front of the world in your underwear.

02:10:25.000 Yeah, oh my god, I tell people it's hot pants. 0.99

02:10:28.000 I go fucking I'm in the hot pants.

02:10:30.000 You want to know the truth?

02:10:31.000 Fucking hot pants.

02:10:32.000 You know?

02:10:33.000 I mean, you were a a su a human superhero, built like a human superhero, and you're fighting for who the fuck expects you to be normal.

02:10:39.000 No, they do though.

02:10:41.000 That's the one where I'm like I'm like, no, I was a selfish, self absorbed.

02:10:45.000 And I look at it, I go, okay, all right, I can accept that and and understand that I was trying to raise everybody up.

02:10:52.000 And if you couldn't get with a fucking program, I didn't have patience for you.

02:10:55.000 Well, you had gone through like when you were talking about these camps, and you had gone through the kind of training that's required to reach the level that you were reached that you had reached.

02:11:05.000 You know that you know what's in there for everybody, and people that don't want to come aboard, you get mad at them.

02:11:10.000 Oh yeah.

02:11:11.000 Yeah.

02:11:11.000 It's like you're gonna hold me back.

02:11:13.000 Yeah.

02:11:13.000 And that's part that's part of it, like understanding like I just didn't have patience for it.

02:11:19.000 Cause I didn't have time.

02:11:20.000 I didn't have time for it, right?

02:11:21.000 Yeah.

02:11:22.000 It's understanding like I know that X, I only have X amount of fucking fights in me, and I gotta try to maximize and that's not gonna work.

02:11:31.000 You know, because a lot of that was assembling people that were accountable to me, right?

02:11:36.000 And and you know, money can hold people accountable in a certain degree, but at a certain point, it's like, you know, the training partners I had around me, um, it was like, hey, I can help you get to the next level.

02:11:50.000 Right?

02:11:51.000 That was kind of the enticement.

02:11:52.000 Yeah.

02:11:53.000 You just need to make a commitment to me.

02:11:55.000 Right, right, right.

02:11:56.000 Right?

02:11:57.000 Make a commitment to me, and I'll give you that little piece that you're missing.

02:12:01.000 You know, and that was kind of the the the part that I helped, you know, go, okay, my training partners be accountable to me, and and I'll help you with that little missing piece of how to be a professional.

02:12:11.000 You know, and so I just didn't have patience, I didn't have patience, and it's one where I'm nice, I'm cordial, all this other stuff, but uh you know, at the end of the day, I was like, I was demanding.

02:12:21.000 Do you think that maybe that that kind of drive played a factor in you having an issue with substances?

02:12:30.000 Yeah.

02:12:30.000 Cause you just wanted relief, yeah.

02:12:32.000 Maybe relief from the mindset.

02:12:34.000 Yeah, I uh you know, part of it was that um you know, you almost like I almost buy into the bullshit and I can never be this perfect being that I was trying to be, and so I'm always falling short, and that feeling of always falling short and this just like you know, I couldn't live up to what I thought I needed to live up to.

02:12:55.000 Right.

02:12:55.000 And so that was hiding, and you know, I'm just gonna get a little relief from it.

02:12:59.000 You know, it's gonna so I can unplug.

02:13:02.000 Right.

02:13:02.000 You know, and it was just one of those where it started with pain, you know, realistically.

02:13:05.000 It started like uh fuck, I'm doing something that inherently I'm gonna have pain.

02:13:10.000 Yeah, you know, and it was this progression from that of like, you know, from pain to I didn't know what an opiate addiction was.

02:13:19.000 Yeah, in all fairness, I think we should tell people uh to b back when this was all going on, the opiate epidemic had not occurred yet.

02:13:27.000 Yeah, and people did not know.

02:13:29.000 And they were also telling a lot of people when they were taking these pain medications that they were not addicted.

02:13:34.000 Not addictive.

02:13:35.000 Yeah, they argued it in court.

02:13:36.000 They argued it in court that it was not addicted.

02:13:38.000 Oh my god.

02:13:39.000 Which is really crazy.

02:13:41.000 Which I didn't understand.

02:13:42.000 Well, fuck, I didn't understand.

02:13:43.000 Like, I didn't understand, like when I took it the level that I took it when I stopped, tried to stop.

02:13:49.000 I didn't understand what being dope sick was.

02:13:51.000 I didn't understand like getting like physically sick because I don't have the substance in my body.

02:13:58.000 Like I would get diarrhea, I couldn't walk from here to the end of the room without having to sit down for a half hour.

02:14:03.000 It's almost like a parasite.

02:14:05.000 It is.

02:14:06.000 It's almost like a parasite that y needs you to keep feeding it to stay alive.

02:14:11.000 Because like, how else could getting poison out of your body be bad?

02:14:15.000 Yeah.

02:14:15.000 How nuts is that?

02:14:16.000 Yeah.

02:14:17.000 That you want it bad, you want to get it, you want to get the poison back in you?

02:14:21.000 Like what kind of weird and that biological mechanism is that?

02:14:25.000 The crazy part is the first recognition of like that I'm stuck, that I don't know the answer of like because I'm caught between, you know, like, all right, I'm going through this physical withdrawal and everything else that comes with it, or I'm just gonna go seek the thing that's causing the physical withdrawal because it makes me feel better.

02:14:47.000 You know, so you're caught in this loop of just bullshit, right?

02:14:50.000 And then you go, I'll just have a little.

02:14:51.000 Yeah, just that's it.

02:14:52.000 I just need to feel better just a little bit.

02:14:54.000 And you know, so it's one of those where it's like there wasn't the internet back then.

02:14:57.000 I couldn't fucking get on and like, oh, let's Google Something, you know, it's like, wasn't that?

02:15:02.000 So how did you figure out that when did you realize like I've got a problem?

02:15:06.000 Um God man.

02:15:12.000 I always from probably age 14.

02:15:16.000 Really?

02:15:17.000 Yeah.

02:15:17.000 I knew I knew when I first drank.

02:15:21.000 First had a drink that I drank until I was drunk.

02:15:27.000 Like 'cause that was this taste of Jack Daniels, and it was like, oh, this feels good.

02:15:33.000 It was like a not a normal reaction.

02:15:35.000 Looking back on it, going, oh, so I've always had a propensity towards it.

02:15:40.000 And then you know, it functions both ways because I get addicted to the sport.

02:15:44.000 I get addicted to the routine.

02:15:46.000 I get addicted to getting in a ring and taking someone's will.

02:15:49.000 I get addicted to the crowd, the championship, the adulations, the this.

02:15:54.000 It's like that's who I am, right?

02:15:57.000 Right.

02:15:57.000 And it's a it's a contributor to my success, but it's also contributed to my to my demise.

02:16:02.000 You know, in both ways, it's like, you know, from an early age, I understood like, hey, you know, this could be a problem, you know.

02:16:09.000 And then when wrestling came along, I didn't drink during wrestling.

02:16:13.000 Like during that whole season, I didn't drink.

02:16:15.000 You know, in college I didn't drink during wrestling season.

02:16:18.000 Like when, you know, when it's like, okay, uh, you know, I'm in recovery, I have seven years of sobriety now.

02:16:24.000 Congratulations.

02:16:24.000 Yeah, I mean, it's it's for me, it's it's one of those foundational things of like, oh, that's what I've been missing my whole life.

02:16:33.000 Yeah.

02:16:33.000 And you keep repeating that term for a good reason.

02:16:36.000 Foundational is everything.

02:16:37.000 Yeah.

02:16:37.000 Like having like like morals and ethics, that's foundational.

02:16:41.000 Foundational.

02:16:42.000 Having your health, that's foundational.

02:16:43.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:16:44.000 Yeah.

02:16:44.000 I mean, because it's just one of those where understanding like those are the building blocks.

02:16:50.000 Because if I don't have those things in place, nothing else fucking stands up.

02:16:54.000 Right.

02:16:54.000 Of course.

02:16:55.000 You know, I mean, it's not it sounds like the duh.

02:16:58.000 No, but it's an important thing to reiterate because everybody should hear it.

02:17:02.000 You know, and coming.

02:17:02.000 It's a huge part.

02:17:03.000 It's a huge part.

02:17:04.000 It's it with most things in life.

02:17:06.000 Most things in life.

02:17:07.000 You have to have structure, some kind of structure.

02:17:10.000 You know, figuring out like my son, what like what makes him function, structure.

02:17:15.000 He he's told me this.

02:17:16.000 He goes, You should have been harder on me.

02:17:18.000 I'm like, fuck.

02:17:20.000 I'm like, okay.

02:17:21.000 I'm like, all right.

02:17:23.000 I didn't I didn't know hilarious.

02:17:25.000 Yeah, I didn't know.

02:17:26.000 I'm gonna give you four stars, Dad.

02:17:28.000 Yeah.

02:17:30.000 Could have given you five, but you weren't fucking iron on them.

02:17:33.000 Like, fuck up.

02:17:34.000 That's hilarious.

02:17:35.000 Yeah.

02:17:35.000 But he functions best with structure.

02:17:37.000 He's just one of those individuals that are built like that.

02:17:40.000 Right.

02:17:41.000 Well, I think part of that is gotta probably have seen what you did and genetics and there's it's like some learned memory in there, probably.

02:17:49.000 So I would think I think there is.

02:17:50.000 I don't think we totally understand where personalities come from.

02:17:53.000 It's a mixture of like oh gosh, spirits and hormones and genetics and where you are bored and what part of the fucking moon's facing this way.

02:18:03.000 Oh my god, yeah.

02:18:04.000 I always wondered if that shit's real.

02:18:06.000 Oh my gosh, it's like, yeah, well, Jupiter's orbiting around my Saturn and I always wondered like why are they so into this?

02:18:12.000 Is there something to this?

02:18:14.000 Because if there is, I'm I would feel real stupid if I was ignoring it the whole time.

02:18:17.000 You know what?

02:18:18.000 Um listening to Joe Dispenza, some of his stuff.

02:18:23.000 It changed my whole it it's changed some of my perspective of how like just having um we're energy, right?

02:18:30.000 We're energy, and your your emotional energy is transferred to me.

02:18:35.000 It's like why I was addicted to dawn, because of that exchange of negative energy, right?

02:18:39.000 Yeah, back and forth.

02:18:40.000 It's like a being an addict.

02:18:42.000 Right.

02:18:42.000 I'm addicted to the drama.

02:18:43.000 You're also addicted to making up.

02:18:45.000 Yeah, that's the other one.

02:18:46.000 Yeah, because that's a feel good too.

02:18:48.000 Yeah.

02:18:48.000 Right?

02:18:49.000 Sometimes people want to get in fights just to make up.

02:18:53.000 Hell yeah.

02:18:53.000 I mean, it's the whole process of that fucked up shit.

02:18:57.000 It's how fucked up.

02:18:58.000 It's all fun.

02:19:00.000 Oh my god.

02:19:01.000 What do you hate fun?

02:19:03.000 Yeah.

02:19:04.000 Oh my god.

02:19:05.000 So it's it's that really fucked up part of like understanding, like looking back on it, going, Oh shit.

02:19:10.000 Bro, when you guys were fighting in the movie right before you were about to fight Fov Chench and it is Oh my god.

02:19:15.000 It is such a crazy scene.

02:19:18.000 It's really well done, man.

02:19:19.000 Oh my god, it's really well done.

02:19:21.000 It it's it's how Emily flips that switch of like fuck you, motherfucker. 1.00

02:19:26.000 Yeah, you well, you wanted me to come.

02:19:28.000 It's like, oh my god, it's Like fuck.

02:19:31.000 That's what does it every fucking time.

02:19:33.000 It's amazing.

02:19:34.000 Like that little, like, oh God, I guess I did want to come.

02:19:37.000 I'm fucking asshole.

02:19:38.000 It's amazing.

02:19:39.000 Oh.

02:19:40.000 It's so realistic.

02:19:42.000 I mean, they nailed it.

02:19:43.000 They really nailed it.

02:19:44.000 How weird is it for you to watch like a segment of your life be recreated in a movie.

02:19:50.000 Is it surr- I mean it's it's so surreal, I've used I've like I haven't found another word to explain.

02:19:56.000 Right.

02:19:56.000 It seems like there's not a word that's figured out for that one.

02:19:59.000 There's not.

02:20:00.000 Because it's just one where it's like, you know what on the other side of it, and this is just me going, you know what?

02:20:05.000 I'm grateful.

02:20:06.000 I I have a sense of humility.

02:20:07.000 I have a sense of just being like deep profound gratitude that DJ, Emily Benny, everybody involved in the film wanted to take this on.

02:20:17.000 Yeah.

02:20:18.000 Like that's amazing.

02:20:19.000 Because I looked at it going, like a lot of it's self-worth, going, you really want to do a movie about my life?

02:20:25.000 About me?

02:20:26.000 Like, what the fuck?

02:20:27.000 Like, really?

02:20:29.000 And then understanding like what they see in me and the belief they have in the story and everything that's around it.

02:20:37.000 Because at the end of it, it's redemption.

02:20:39.000 It's like where I am today.

02:20:42.000 I'm so thankful that I have my health.

02:20:46.000 I'm so thankful that I have my sobriety.

02:20:48.000 I'm so thankful that I get to experience these things and share, you know, my experience, strength, and hope, they call it, right?

02:20:55.000 You know, with other people and give them going, look, look at all the fucking bullshit I went through, and I'm on the other side of it.

02:21:01.000 You know, so whatever you're going through, anything's possible.

02:21:04.000 Yeah.

02:21:05.000 Anything.

02:21:07.000 Truly.

02:21:08.000 I mean, uh, and the thing about what you did is that like I said, I thought it was so brave that you did it publicly when you did the Smashing Machine documentary.

02:21:17.000 And I was thinking, like, did you were you happy that you were getting on film, so like maybe this like would make you get clean.

02:21:27.000 Was there any of that?

02:21:28.000 Ooh, there's a little bit of that.

02:21:30.000 Yeah.

02:21:30.000 Because part of it is that I didn't, I didn't at that point, the only person on the planet that knew what I was doing was Don.

02:21:37.000 Right.

02:21:37.000 Nobody else on the planet knew what I was doing.

02:21:40.000 And so when John had put the camera down, and he's he's like, dude, what the fuck are you doing?

02:21:48.000 Like you're not being truthful with us.

02:21:51.000 And I'm like, well, at that moment I kinda went, fuck you, get the fuck out of my house.

02:21:55.000 You're done filming.

02:21:56.000 And there was this, there's this moment where it was like I needed to tell somebody, and I go, okay.

02:22:03.000 Like, here's what I've been doing.

02:22:05.000 And I don't know who to tell.

02:22:07.000 I don't know how to tell it.

02:22:08.000 I'm just gonna show you.

02:22:10.000 And that's when it shows me shooting up.

02:22:13.000 It was that moment where I'm like, you want to know what I'm doing?

02:22:16.000 Well, I'm I'm gonna show you.

02:22:19.000 Because it was one of those where it's like it felt like a weight got lifted.

02:22:23.000 Right.

02:22:23.000 Like all of a sudden it's just like, oh fuck.

02:22:26.000 Did you ever think about not going through with the documentary?

02:22:29.000 Yeah.

02:22:30.000 Yeah.

02:22:30.000 So here's what they ended up doing.

02:22:33.000 So I didn't see one stitch of footage at all until I saw the complete documentary in Los Angeles at the Dolby Sound Studios.

02:22:44.000 So it was like a couple of years.

02:22:46.000 Wow.

02:22:47.000 Not a second of footage.

02:22:50.000 So I sit down, the documentary as it appeared on HBO, right?

02:22:54.000 And the filmmakers aren't watching the fucking film.

02:22:57.000 They're watching me watch the film.

02:23:00.000 Right?

02:23:00.000 Wow.

02:23:01.000 There's like eight of us in the in the movie theater.

02:23:03.000 I get the film's done, lights come up, and I literally stand up and John Greenhall goes, What do you think?

02:23:11.000 And I go, I don't have to get back with you.

02:23:14.000 And I just walk straight out, don't say another fucking word, get in my truck, start driving.

02:23:20.000 Back then the phones, you know, like in the car, he's calling me on the phone, and I'm and he goes, You're gonna be okay.

02:23:25.000 I go, I have enough fucking clue.

02:23:27.000 I don't know.

02:23:27.000 I I honestly don't know.

02:23:29.000 Because the the agreement we had in place was I had I had final veto over the content of it.

02:23:35.000 But he never showed you the content?

02:23:37.000 Until that day I saw it in the Dolby Sound Studios in Los Angeles.

02:23:42.000 The content, the the whole film, I didn't see any of it until that moment.

02:23:48.000 So literally I drove home and John was like uh what I go, I I you have to give me a day.

02:23:56.000 You have to fucking give me a day.

02:23:58.000 I I just fuck it.

02:23:59.000 I I said, I don't Know, I don't know if I can go forward with that.

02:24:01.000 I don't think I can.

02:24:02.000 I don't think I can.

02:24:03.000 It's just too fucking much.

02:24:05.000 Okay, so you did have the power to veto it.

02:24:07.000 Yeah, I did.

02:24:07.000 I did at the at the very what made you decide not to.

02:24:11.000 Um John had said something to me like um I guess it's like a uh parable where it's like if you live your life and you've saved one person's life, you've had a worthy life.

02:24:26.000 Meaning that if somebody watches this and sees your struggles that you gone through and sees the hope that you have in that in your recovery, it gives them hope or gives them because what keeps you addicted is shame.

02:24:43.000 The shame of what I was doing.

02:24:45.000 It kept me kept me quiet.

02:24:47.000 I didn't fucking who the fuck am I gonna tell?

02:24:50.000 Right.

02:24:51.000 Right.

02:24:51.000 You don't want them to know.

02:24:53.000 No, you don't want them to know.

02:24:55.000 Like fuck no.

02:24:56.000 And so that shame is what usually keeps people, but if they see me and the film go through this process and this deep revealing process of what was going on with me, it gives them an opportunity to go, well I I can I can ask for help too.

02:25:14.000 When you got through the film, how how long did it take you to get clean?

02:25:20.000 Um I got clean off of off of off of morphine off of the new bane I was doing um right after all the way through the Volchanchin or all the way through the uh Fajita fight, and I was clean for started drinking,

02:25:38.000 which is a whole nother topic, but you know, I hadn't done narcotics in you know, probably like three years after that, and then I started up again, and then it's was this process of like start stop start stop start stop, and then the thing that predominantly dominated me was alcohol, because it's socially acceptable, easily accessible, yeah, you know, all these different factors of it.

02:26:03.000 And so that's eventually like I've like I've said, uh my so my mom passed away September 3rd um 1996.

02:26:14.000 And uh, so my son knows this, and so my sobriety date's September 4th.

02:26:21.000 And so my son asked me that day, September 3rd, he's like, Dad, I know you need to drink today, uh, because your mom died, uh, but would you stop tomorrow?

02:26:32.000 And at the time I thought it was just another empty promise of like, yeah, yeah, I'll I'll stop, I'll stop.

02:26:37.000 And next day I got up and there's just something a little different or whatever it was that day.

02:26:43.000 And I stopped asking the questions why, because it's irrelevant, right?

02:26:47.000 Um, and from that day till today I'm sober.

02:26:51.000 Wow.

02:26:52.000 Yeah.

02:26:55.000 Makes no fucking sense.

02:26:56.000 But it does.

02:26:57.000 It's like you get better at sobriety, just like you get better at all other things in life.

02:27:01.000 Yeah.

02:27:01.000 Right?

02:27:02.000 Yeah.

02:27:03.000 You get better at figuring out why.

02:27:05.000 And you know, there's also the reality that I think a lot of people need to take into consideration when it comes to fighting, is that uh a lot of guys are they're self-diagnosing or or or self-dispensing something to make themselves feel better.

02:27:21.000 Yeah, because they've taken a lot of damage.

02:27:23.000 Oh, yeah.

02:27:24.000 And they feel like shit.

02:27:24.000 Yeah.

02:27:25.000 And that's alcohol's a big one.

02:27:27.000 A big contributing factor.

02:27:28.000 A lot of a lot of former fighters become alcoholics.

02:27:31.000 Cocaine's another one.

02:27:32.000 Yeah.

02:27:33.000 Cause it's one of those where I thought I I literally woke up, Joe, and this is no shit.

02:27:37.000 Like waking up going, okay, I don't know what's wrong with me, but there's something fucking wrong.

02:27:42.000 Like there's something wrong with me.

02:27:44.000 And understanding like all this different stuff, head trauma and all these different things and factors.

02:27:49.000 I I literally thought I was like going off the deep end.

02:27:53.000 Like I was like, okay, alcohol or drugs was the only relief I got for what the fuck was going on in my head.

02:27:59.000 So the thing what what did it it was it past a specific fight?

02:28:05.000 Um it was it was literally towards it was after 2006.

02:28:10.000 It's like 2006, 2007, 2008.

02:28:12.000 I stopped fighting 2009.

02:28:14.000 I didn't know what else to do.

02:28:15.000 All my identity was tied up in being a fighter, you know, and understanding like these simple words of like fighting's what I did, it's not who I am.

02:28:23.000 Right.

02:28:24.000 I'm much more than that, right?

02:28:25.000 I'm much more than a fighter.

02:28:27.000 And understanding once I got to that point, you know, It's like that's when some of the relief came in, but part of it, my head, like there's something fucking I don't know what it is.

02:28:37.000 And so I was just seeking relief because of like there's something that's fucked up in my head.

02:28:44.000 And uh I didn't know what it was.

02:28:46.000 Didn't know what it was.

02:28:47.000 Still to this day I look at it like you know, it was I call it a god shot because it it was one where it's like something needs to change because this is unsustainable, you know, unsustainable with the alcohol, unsustainable with what's going on in my head, and you know, get sober, things quiet down.

02:29:02.000 You know, it's actually quiet down.

02:29:04.000 That first year it took uh that of sobriety to to clear out all the bullshit that was in my head, going, I just need neutral.

02:29:12.000 Right?

02:29:12.000 And once I hit neutral, it's like, oh wow, I can build on this, you know.

02:29:17.000 So it's it's it's been incredible.

02:29:22.000 It makes no sense at all, but it makes perfect sense.

02:29:24.000 No, it does make sense because you're willing to articulate your deep thoughts, your your very vulnerable thoughts on you know who you are as a guy who was, you know, one point in time, one of the scariest fucking human beings walking the face of the earth.

02:29:38.000 And you're you know, it's that's important for people to know and to hear and to that and to recognize that like man, a lot of people can get caught in that trap.

02:29:48.000 They can't think you couldn't.

02:29:49.000 Yeah.

02:29:50.000 You know, just be a little bit more compassionate and understanding and appreciate people for s telling a very difficult truth about their life.

02:29:58.000 Because I think people need to hear that stuff.

02:30:00.000 They do.

02:30:01.000 They do like I said, you know what I understood, like giving them the permission for the documentary, saying to John, going, Okay, if this could change or help one person, then uh my life has value, right?

02:30:14.000 Because I helped another person.

02:30:16.000 And then when it premiered at HBO at the studios, there there's a this was like the whole crowning moment is having like a sixty-five-year-old grandmother come over to me who I would have nothing in common with and say to me, you know what?

02:30:32.000 That was beautiful.

02:30:33.000 My grandson, he's got a drinking problem, and I don't know what to do.

02:30:38.000 Wow.

02:30:39.000 You know, it's like this this door had been opened.

02:30:42.000 Yeah.

02:30:42.000 Where she felt comfortable to sit down and talk with me about her grandson, and it was like this moment of like, oh fuck, this what this is what it's about.

02:30:53.000 It's about opening that door up so people can connect and go, Well, if he can do it, I can I can I can tell my truth.

02:31:00.000 Right.

02:31:01.000 You know, because it's difficult, man.

02:31:03.000 Addictions are just I mean, shaming and they keep you in a box, and it's just this it's it's a horrible existence.

02:31:10.000 Did anybody ever recommend Ibogaine to you?

02:31:14.000 No.

02:31:14.000 I've heard of that though.

02:31:16.000 So they're doing that now in Texas.

02:31:18.000 Um the Ibogain initiative uh passed through thanks to former governor Rick Perry, Republican, who uh through working with veterans found that a lot of veterans who struggle with addiction and who uh PTSD that Ibogaine is incredibly effective.

02:31:35.000 Wow.

02:31:35.000 And it's not a recreational drug, it's not funny.

02:31:37.000 No, no, no.

02:31:38.000 But it's a psychedelic that takes twenty-four hours and it's apparently like brutally introspective, but literally corrects addictive pathways, like whatever the connection is in the brain that causes you to be addicted to things, yeah, it can disrupt those in a very bizarre and unique way.

02:31:53.000 And it's something like eighty plus percent effective with one dose of getting people to stay off of narcotics, cigarettes, alcohol.

02:32:04.000 And I think with two doses, it's in the nineties.

02:32:08.000 So if you do two different hybrid gain ceremonies, yeah.

02:32:12.000 That's it.

02:32:13.000 It was in a yeah, they were going, most people were going.

02:32:15.000 My friend Ed Clay uh did it down in in Mexico, and he even had a place that he was running down in Mexico because you couldn't do it in America, because it's illegal here.

02:32:24.000 But it it literally stops the train of addiction dead in its tracks.

02:32:29.000 They don't totally understand how it does it, but it's very effective.

02:32:33.000 I know a lot of veterans who have to be.

02:32:35.000 So they've talked about relief like uh the neuroplasticity of of drugs like that to create new pathways instantaneously.

02:32:43.000 Yeah.

02:32:45.000 I'd like to say those words, but I don't really know what they mean.

02:32:47.000 You know what I mean?

02:32:48.000 When I say 'em, I'm just faking.

02:32:50.000 I know that's how you're supposed to say it, so I'll say it, but respectfully, I don't know what the fuck's going on.

02:32:56.000 What I do know is the my friends that I know that have gone and donned the out of the game, It's been massively effective.

02:33:02.000 Wow.

02:33:02.000 Get them off drugs, get them off drinking.

02:33:04.000 Wow.

02:33:05.000 Get them, you know, they just change their perspective.

02:33:07.000 They they go, okay, I get it now.

02:33:09.000 They just realize where they were tripping over their own dick, like what they were doing wrong.

02:33:12.000 That's incredible.

02:33:13.000 Yeah.

02:33:13.000 Quick.

02:33:14.000 I mean, what what else is like that where like 24 hours later you can get a totally new perspective in life and be cured of addiction?

02:33:21.000 And somehow another that's illegal.

02:33:23.000 That's illegal, but the stuff that they're addicted to is not.

02:33:27.000 Oh my god, that's like you know that's fucking bizarro land, right?

02:33:31.000 Oh my god.

02:33:32.000 Total bizarro world.

02:33:33.000 Yeah, none of that makes sense, man.

02:33:35.000 I mean, it just that's so that's a whole nother rabbit hole.

02:33:38.000 It really doesn't make any sense.

02:33:40.000 No.

02:33:40.000 Like what we just said makes it's just like, no, it should be the opposite.

02:33:43.000 Yeah.

02:33:44.000 It should be the opposite.

02:33:45.000 This is so stupid.

02:33:48.000 Is it just one where it's like if that stuff existed back then, it it would have cut short.

02:33:53.000 Yeah.

02:33:54.000 It did exist, but it just didn't exist here because we're corrupt.

02:33:58.000 Yeah.

02:33:58.000 And so there again, kudos to Governor Rick Berry, because what he's done is like open the doorway to right wing leaning people going, oh, maybe we shouldn't dismiss all these things that God put here on Earth.

02:34:10.000 Oh my gosh.

02:34:11.000 Maybe some of these things are actually here to heal your brain and we're ignoring them because you can't patent them.

02:34:16.000 Like that might be the thing too.

02:34:18.000 Not saying there's anything else on the circle drugs.

02:34:21.000 Right, right.

02:34:21.000 But I'm saying that this also might cure you, and it's read of it's it's a plan.

02:34:25.000 So that's again in the last five, six years, alternative perspectives has been just paramount in my just in opening me up, you know, to having a better understanding of like how rigid I was and how how just this thin line of thinking I had had for so long about stuff like this.

02:34:49.000 You know, and so you know, it's just been this incredible um experience to get to here because I've had to open up.

02:34:58.000 I've had to go, okay, I'm gonna do meditation, I'm gonna do this.

02:35:01.000 I did I did meditation for fighting, but it was visual meditation.

02:35:06.000 How the fuck I was gonna dismantle a dude in the ring, right?

02:35:09.000 I would sit and do but this is meditation to access different parts of my brain, right?

02:35:14.000 To try to get into delta waves and you know, theta, beta, you know, all these different things, so I can open different spots in my brain up.

02:35:22.000 Right.

02:35:22.000 You know, and so it's just been this you know, my wife, she's Nietzsche Rem Buddhist.

02:35:28.000 You know, number numyo horenge co.

02:35:31.000 She cheats every morning. 1.00

02:35:32.000 Duncan does that.

02:35:33.000 Yeah, nummyo horenga go. 0.98

02:35:35.000 So the Buddha you have the Buddha, the gold Buddha you have, yeah.

02:35:38.000 We have one in our house, not quite that big.

02:35:40.000 Oh, that's yeah.

02:35:41.000 So she's Nietzsche and Buddhist, and it's one of those things where she got me to start chanting.

02:35:47.000 Um I don't do it as much now, but the first three, four years we were together, it's like I chanted with her regularly.

02:35:52.000 And it's one of those where it's like harmonics and vibrations and frequencies, you know, and understanding like man, we know so little, but realistically, all this stuff through like all the different stuff they discovered in Egypt with the sound chambers and all the different things.

02:36:09.000 I mean, it's a whole different thing where we just ignored.

02:36:13.000 Yeah.

02:36:14.000 And it's like, well shit, we we don't even we're so archaic in our thinking.

02:36:19.000 Well, I think what happens sometimes is thinking and ideas get connected to people.

02:36:26.000 And you think that the ideas and whatever you're whatever you think you know about history or about the the way things can be done.

02:36:36.000 Yeah, like it's all it's all been solved, kids.

02:36:38.000 Yeah.

02:36:39.000 Like settle down.

02:36:40.000 Well, everybody knows.

02:36:41.000 No, no, no, no, I don't think they do.

02:36:43.000 I don't think that you should show me how they built that.

02:36:45.000 Yeah, show me who the fuck figured this out.

02:36:48.000 Like maybe they knew about medicine that you're ignoring because you can't patent it.

02:36:53.000 Yeah.

02:36:53.000 These people have been making ayahuasca for 10,000 years in the jungle.

02:36:57.000 Like you don't tell me Yeah.

02:37:00.000 Oh my god, yeah.

02:37:01.000 Settle down.

02:37:02.000 Yeah.

02:37:02.000 Settle down.

02:37:03.000 There's there's all the things that you think are valid, plus other stuff.

02:37:08.000 That's the thing that people have to recognize.

02:37:10.000 It's you can't be rigid with what you believe in.

02:37:13.000 Because uh sometimes it's wrong.

02:37:15.000 That's the part where I can't believe how much I've opened up and been just receptive.

02:37:22.000 Um and a lot of it's because I'm sober and it's like fuck, I don't know shit, man.

02:37:26.000 Like when you look at the bigger picture stuff, I I know so little.

02:37:29.000 Dude, nobody knows shit.

02:37:30.000 That's the scariest thing.

02:37:32.000 There's a bunch of people pretending they've got it figured out, but they're full of shit too.

02:37:35.000 Yeah.

02:37:35.000 Every one of us is a talking monkey flying through space.

02:37:43.000 We are in a convertible organic spaceship hurling through the universe.

02:37:48.000 That alone.

02:37:49.000 Once you start with that, that's your foundational.

02:37:52.000 Okay?

02:37:52.000 This is foundational to your view of the world.

02:37:56.000 Oh my God.

02:37:56.000 The problem with us is that we don't fucking see the stars anymore.

02:37:59.000 That's a giant problem with human beings.

02:38:01.000 We've screwed ourselves up with light pollution.

02:38:03.000 And it's not a coincidence that the people that live in the most populated cities are the most diluted, ridiculous people that are the furthest away from nature.

02:38:12.000 Not that they're not awesome people, but what I'm saying is like you you are so far away from nature.

02:38:18.000 You're so diluted from being like a wild animal.

02:38:21.000 So you know what I've actually done the last company?

02:38:24.000 I've hugged trees.

02:38:25.000 I've literally hugged trees and it feels beautiful.

02:38:28.000 Yeah, that's real.

02:38:29.000 It it really is like uh walking barefoot, right?

02:38:32.000 Like on grass and getting connected.

02:38:35.000 And you know, I at first you would have said it to me 10 years ago.

02:38:38.000 I'm like, yeah, okay, whatever dad.

02:38:40.000 You know, but it's like, okay, who says it who says it's not?

02:38:44.000 I think nature's a vitamin.

02:38:45.000 Oh, yeah.

02:38:46.000 I think plants.

02:38:47.000 Hey, where did the term tree hugger come from?

02:38:50.000 Did it come from the time where hippies were doing acid?

02:38:53.000 Probably.

02:38:54.000 Because then that would make so much more sense.

02:38:58.000 Because if you were on ass and you hug the tree, you would be like, Oh, I love you.

02:39:02.000 I love you tree.

02:39:04.000 You're so fucking amazing.

02:39:07.000 Oh shit, that originated a while ago.

02:39:10.000 Oh from a series of nonviolent environmental protests in India, beginning with uh Bishnoy Bishwing. 1.00

02:39:17.000 Bishnort community in 1730.

02:39:19.000 Wow who physically clung to trees to prevent them from being cut down.

02:39:23.000 See, those people are probably on mushrooms. 0.88

02:39:25.000 Whoa.

02:39:26.000 I was like, that's why that's why they worship cattle.

02:39:28.000 That's what I think.

02:39:30.000 I I wouldn't have to do it.

02:39:31.000 Why else would all those poor people not eat cows? 1.00

02:39:33.000 Oh my god, cows are so good. 0.98

02:39:35.000 But doesn't that make no sense?

02:39:36.000 It makes no sense at all.

02:39:38.000 It makes no sense.

02:39:38.000 You guys have food everywhere and you're starving.

02:39:41.000 And your your religion won't let you eat that food. 1.00

02:39:44.000 Boy, okay.

02:39:46.000 How'd you come to this?

02:39:48.000 The only thing that makes any sense to me is those cows were giving you the mushrooms.

02:39:53.000 They had to mushrooms go.

02:39:55.000 That's what they grow.

02:39:56.000 The best source of psilocybin is cow poop.

02:39:59.000 Duncan used to live in uh my friend Duncan Trussell used to live in Asheville, North Carolina.

02:40:04.000 And uh the farmers out there used to put a certain kind of feed into their diet to make sure that fungus couldn't grow in their shit so that the the kids wouldn't go in the field and pick the mushrooms.

02:40:15.000 Because there were so many spores in that area.

02:40:18.000 These kids would go just get bags of mushrooms and go to other planets.

02:40:23.000 So the farmer had feed.

02:40:26.000 The farmer to feed is some anti mushroom.

02:40:30.000 I want to get still there.

02:40:33.000 I wonder if it is I bet there's parts of this country where they just grow naturally all over the room.

02:40:37.000 I would imagine.

02:40:40.000 I would imagine.

02:40:41.000 Yeah.

02:40:41.000 I'd imagine.

02:40:42.000 I was supposed to actually go down and to Brazil and ayahuasca.

02:40:47.000 Oh, really?

02:40:48.000 Yeah.

02:40:49.000 Isn't it crazy that you have to go to Brazil to do that too?

02:40:51.000 That's nuts.

02:40:52.000 Yeah.

02:40:53.000 But all these things.

02:40:54.000 A friend of mine uh we actually went down to stem cells in uh Panama.

02:41:00.000 It's called Origins.

02:41:01.000 And so we go down there and he starts explaining like this.

02:41:04.000 For him, it was like seeing the face of God.

02:41:06.000 He said it changed his whole entire uh whole entire being.

02:41:10.000 And he's like, it's in the jungle.

02:41:12.000 So there's no like it's dum-dum-dum-dum. 0.72

02:41:15.000 Yeah.

02:41:15.000 Exactly.

02:41:17.000 Exactly.

02:41:18.000 And he goes, it's it's it's life changing.

02:41:20.000 I just picture Alex Pereira walking towards totally, man.

02:41:25.000 Totally.

02:41:26.000 Like that's a scary motherfucker, man.

02:41:28.000 I swear.

02:41:29.000 He's the scariest.

02:41:30.000 Oh, dude.

02:41:30.000 His walk in is the scary.

02:41:32.000 Oh my god, man.

02:41:33.000 It's the dopest, too.

02:41:34.000 Oh, it's that music starts playing.

02:41:36.000 It's this like I'm coming to get you.

02:41:39.000 Nothing you could do about it.

02:41:40.000 Yeah.

02:41:41.000 Yeah, he's built for one thing.

02:41:43.000 And I bumped in him in Chicago and like he's built for one thing.

02:41:48.000 He's built the fight.

02:41:49.000 Yeah.

02:41:49.000 He's he's built the fuck you up.

02:41:51.000 Oh, he's built the fight.

02:41:52.000 Weird weirdly strong guy.

02:41:55.000 Oh.

02:41:55.000 Yeah, like literally, it's like like he shouldn't be Able to do what he's doing.

02:42:01.000 It's like you know, I go, there's no wind up in his kicks, his low kicks, nothing.

02:42:06.000 There's no no tells.

02:42:07.000 No tell.

02:42:08.000 Like you look at it.

02:42:10.000 Really sneaky.

02:42:11.000 But he's got unbelievable power.

02:42:13.000 But the thing is, he puts it together with technique.

02:42:16.000 It's not like he's just waiting after you, trying to exchange with you and land first.

02:42:20.000 No.

02:42:20.000 No, he's setting you up, and while he's setting you up, he's taking your legs away and you're not seeing the tells.

02:42:27.000 They're not there at all.

02:42:28.000 Yep, that's it.

02:42:29.000 They don't move.

02:42:30.000 I was trying to.

02:42:32.000 And you're like, and that's a whole thing is that you go, okay, you're you're thinking you're gonna pick up on it, and it's like no, you're never going to.

02:42:40.000 Yeah, he's very clever with that.

02:42:41.000 And he does it with both sides, too.

02:42:43.000 He's just as good with the left leg with a switch kick when he's fighting a southpaw.

02:42:47.000 He just starts chewing up those calves really quick, man.

02:42:50.000 I can't believe that he's even a thing.

02:42:54.000 Is that that nerve from the Yeah, it's a horrible nerve.

02:42:58.000 Oh my god.

02:42:58.000 That wasn't a thing when you were fighting.

02:42:59.000 No, it wasn't fancy.

02:43:00.000 Crazy.

02:43:01.000 Oh my god, it's you have to know it now.

02:43:03.000 Oh my gosh, like looking at it going, oh my god, he's taking him out.

02:43:07.000 He can't, he can't walk.

02:43:09.000 Look at it's like five kicks in.

02:43:11.000 You're like, oh fuck.

02:43:12.000 He can't push off of it.

02:43:14.000 Isn't it crazy that you went your whole career without seeing that?

02:43:17.000 I like where like who discovered it.

02:43:20.000 Michael Bisping.

02:43:21.000 Yeah.

02:43:21.000 Even Michael Bisping said it.

02:43:23.000 I went through my whole career without getting calf kicked.

02:43:25.000 That's so crazy.

02:43:26.000 Yeah.

02:43:27.000 World champion.

02:43:28.000 Never never got calf kicked.

02:43:30.000 Like that's a good thing.

02:43:32.000 Yeah.

02:43:32.000 It's just amazing.

02:43:34.000 But it's amazing that it came along so late.

02:43:36.000 It's on because it's it's unbelievable you would think that something that looks that innocent is so debilitating.

02:43:42.000 Well, Benson Henderson was the first guy to start implementing it in the UFC.

02:43:46.000 And then uh Mighty Mouse did it to Henry Sehudo and made his leg go limp.

02:43:52.000 Did you ever remember remember that?

02:43:54.000 He started he started doing it.

02:43:56.000 But this was like around the time where it started catching on.

02:44:00.000 There was one fight between Dustin Poirier and Jim Miller.

02:44:04.000 Oh, there was a horrible one.

02:44:05.000 There was a lot of calf kicks in that fight. 1.00

02:44:08.000 Yeah, I mean, that's the copycat league, right?

02:44:10.000 It's a copycat thing, like watching another fight or go, shit, I'm gonna try it.

02:44:13.000 Now it's see everyone has it.

02:44:14.000 Yeah.

02:44:15.000 Everyone has it.

02:44:16.000 You have to have it.

02:44:17.000 And you have you can't take too many.

02:44:19.000 No.

02:44:19.000 No matter who you are.

02:44:20.000 No, it doesn't matter.

02:44:21.000 I mean, it's just one of those where I'm so vulnerable.

02:44:23.000 It's it's one of those where it's like there's there's other than checking it or getting out of the way, there's not a fucking shit you can do. 0.64

02:44:30.000 Well, Pereira has a very interesting way of checking it.

02:44:34.000 So he checks it like the hacky sack way.

02:44:36.000 Do you know what I'm talking about?

02:44:38.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:44:38.000 So like when you throw a kick at him, he just lifts his leg.

02:44:41.000 Yeah.

02:44:42.000 He just lifts his shit.

02:44:43.000 He le he has his knee there and he just picks his his leg up.

02:44:46.000 Yeah.

02:44:46.000 So the kick just kind of goes with it.

02:44:48.000 And he goes, it takes all the impact away.

02:44:50.000 Wow.

02:44:50.000 Because he was saying, as far as checking it, like you don't want to check it because it fucking hurts too much.

02:44:55.000 Yeah.

02:44:55.000 Oh my god.

02:44:55.000 Like even if you're even if you're just checking it, now that leg is fucked up.

02:44:58.000 Yeah.

02:44:59.000 Why check it when you can just do that like hacky sack thing?

02:45:02.000 And he was showing us with it.

02:45:03.000 Like, see, oh, that's a different one.

02:45:04.000 He does that one.

02:45:05.000 That's a different hacky sack one where he uses the back of his foot.

02:45:09.000 Yeah.

02:45:10.000 But what I mean is uh he is picking up his leg like at the knee, his ankle is coming up parallel.

02:45:17.000 Yeah to the floor.

02:45:18.000 I know exactly what you're talking about.

02:45:20.000 You're not gonna see it, but he's just uh he's clever.

02:45:24.000 There's a lot of cleverness, and it seems to be very creative, like the style that he has, like how he figures out how to know he's just gonna land one.

02:45:33.000 So he's got it's very creative little ways to chop at the legs.

02:45:38.000 Yeah, I still I still think Sean O'Malley's got the best feints.

02:45:42.000 Oh, he's got phenomenal feints.

02:45:43.000 I mean, just so I I remember watching him before he got to the UFC, and a friend of mine was like, No, no, no, you gotta you gotta watch this kid.

02:45:51.000 You gotta watch this kid.

02:45:52.000 You know, and watching him going, it would be like this just again and again and again, and just realizing, oh fuck, that's what he was setting up.

02:46:00.000 Yeah, it was 14 feints, right?

02:46:03.000 To get to what he wanted to get to, and then it was like a feint here, feint on this side, faint here, and he all of a sudden he's got a tendency, and now it's like attack time.

02:46:12.000 Did you ever see the Eddie Winlin one?

02:46:14.000 Uh he faints an uppercut and he comes over the top with a right hand.

02:46:18.000 I've seen it, but I haven't seen it.

02:46:20.000 Oh, you gotta see it.

02:46:21.000 Yeah, it's so pretty.

02:46:22.000 It's one of his prettiest knockouts.

02:46:24.000 He like he like stepped in like fainted like he was gonna throw an uppercut and turned it into a left hand.

02:46:31.000 Oh my god.

02:46:32.000 It was so clean.

02:46:33.000 Yeah, he's watching stuff.

02:46:35.000 Watch this.

02:46:36.000 Watch how I think it's amazing.

02:46:39.000 Look at that.

02:46:40.000 He faints a left uppercut and comes over the top with the right hand.

02:46:44.000 Watch that again.

02:46:45.000 And that's one of those words.

02:46:47.000 That is that's silly.

02:46:50.000 Bro, that's so good.

02:46:51.000 Oh my God.

02:46:53.000 That's like one of those things where it's like you can't teach it.

02:46:58.000 It's so slick.

02:46:59.000 It's such a slick move.

02:47:01.000 Cannot teach it.

02:47:03.000 Did you watch the Terrence Crawford Canelo Halvarez five?

02:47:05.000 Yeah, I did.

02:47:06.000 Whoo.

02:47:07.000 Talk about slick.

02:47:08.000 Oh my goodness.

02:47:09.000 Crawford's just out boxed, man.

02:47:11.000 Like fucking unreal.

02:47:12.000 Who's ever done that?

02:47:13.000 Who's ever jumped up two weight classes like that?

02:47:16.000 Scary.

02:47:17.000 It's crazy.

02:47:18.000 Scary.

02:47:18.000 So realizing like watching it going, Carnello has such a bully style.

02:47:24.000 Right.

02:47:24.000 He's gonna get in, he's gonna bang with you.

02:47:26.000 He's gonna power.

02:47:27.000 And watching Canelo just or Crawford just box.

02:47:32.000 Just box.

02:47:33.000 Beautifully.

02:47:34.000 Oh like I watch the whole thing.

02:47:36.000 I'm like, that's art.

02:47:38.000 That is art.

02:47:39.000 He's so clever and just like the way and it got to the point where he got so comfortable, he's like pit patting them, and then what?

02:47:47.000 Bop bop bop, bang. 0.79

02:47:48.000 And you're like you're watching like wow, it's towards the end, towards the final rounds.

02:47:52.000 Really started getting comfortable and really started putting it on them.

02:47:55.000 I'm like, this is amazing.

02:47:56.000 You know, one of those rare, like that's history, obviously, right?

02:48:00.000 Watching somebody do you shouldn't be able to do that.

02:48:03.000 You shouldn't be able to fight at that weight for the first time ever.

02:48:08.000 Against one of the greatest.

02:48:09.000 Undisputed greatest of all time.

02:48:12.000 And do what you did.

02:48:13.000 It's it is beyond like my favorite an outlier.

02:48:17.000 You're beyond an outlier.

02:48:18.000 You're something, you're an anomaly.

02:48:20.000 Yeah.

02:48:21.000 Something special.

02:48:23.000 I believe he's 37.

02:48:25.000 Yeah.

02:48:25.000 One of those where you shouldn't be able to do that by by any account.

02:48:30.000 By any account.

02:48:31.000 37, my body was so wrecked.

02:48:32.000 I'm like, fuck you.

02:48:34.000 You know, I do I can barely go bowling.

02:48:38.000 I was I watched a video of Dolph Lundgrid the other day.

02:48:42.000 Like I that guy was like, remember in Rocky 3, he was the first guy that was scientifically trained.

02:48:48.000 Yeah.

02:48:49.000 Whenever I think of like UFC fighters like you absolutely get talking about guys doing everything scientifically.

02:48:56.000 Dolph Lundgren in Rocky 3.

02:48:58.000 Yeah, oh my god, man.

02:48:59.000 That was.

02:48:59.000 It was a Rocky 4.

02:49:00.000 Rocky 4, right?

02:49:01.000 That was a stereotype.

02:49:02.000 That was a stereotype like the Russians, yeah.

02:49:04.000 Oh, they're manufactured.

02:49:05.000 You know, like biologically manufactured.

02:49:08.000 I came from a test tube, you know, type of thing.

02:49:10.000 He totally looked like a Russian experiment in that movie. 0.70

02:49:14.000 He did.

02:49:15.000 That was the first time I saw a Versa climber.

02:49:17.000 I was like, whoa, conditioning.

02:49:20.000 Look at that.

02:49:21.000 He's unstoppable.

02:49:22.000 Yeah, I was on a versa climber two days ago.

02:49:25.000 They're brutal.

02:49:25.000 Oh, fuck, I hate him.

02:49:27.000 Not a lot of fun.

02:49:28.000 No.

02:49:29.000 Not an enjoyable idea.

02:49:35.000 All the things that suck.

02:49:36.000 All the things that suck.

02:49:38.000 Like going shit, just you know, but it's one of those where I'm like, you know what?

02:49:42.000 I don't have to do it for anything other than the challenge of just doing it.

02:49:46.000 Yeah.

02:49:47.000 You know?

02:49:47.000 I think everybody needs a little bit of a challenge.

02:49:49.000 And just getting over the challenge of doing like I'm doing 45 minutes on this elliptical machine, period.

02:49:56.000 That's it.

02:49:56.000 Yeah, that's good for you.

02:49:57.000 Oh, it's huge.

02:49:58.000 It's huge.

02:49:59.000 It's giant.

02:50:00.000 Because it's just like when I train the comes small wins, right?

02:50:03.000 I just need a win.

02:50:04.000 It's like some days I just need fucking a win.

02:50:07.000 That's it.

02:50:08.000 I don't care what it is.

02:50:09.000 Right.

02:50:09.000 You know, I just need a win.

02:50:12.000 Right.

02:50:12.000 Being nice to my wife, you know, being nice to, you know, just whatever it is, I just need something that day.

02:50:18.000 Right.

02:50:18.000 You know, it's like, fuck, I'm gonna go to the gym, I don't get out of fucking thing that I hate, and I'm gonna fucking do it for 45 minutes and I'm and I'm that's a win.

02:50:26.000 And I think if you looked at the proportion, like if you looked at this if there was a study done on people that are happy versus people that are not in this life, I bet the people that would gen generally say they're happy get more of those.

02:50:40.000 I get more of those wins in over themselves.

02:50:42.000 Yeah.

02:50:43.000 Get more of those doing some shit that you did want to do, but you did it.

02:50:46.000 Yeah, I'm done.

02:50:47.000 Yeah.

02:50:48.000 I feel better.

02:50:49.000 And that that's that's the for me, that's the link to get to where I am today.

02:50:54.000 Is that I didn't understand how huge those components were.

02:50:58.000 Yeah.

02:50:59.000 Because when you're competing and stuff, it's easy because every day you need you need to get wins.

02:51:03.000 Right.

02:51:03.000 And you're stacking them, right?

02:51:05.000 I'm stacking them.

02:51:06.000 I need every day.

02:51:06.000 I need a good training day.

02:51:08.000 I need a good training day.

02:51:09.000 And then you get to regular life, it's like, okay, let's the fuck I'm not I'm not like what's my doing anything.

02:51:16.000 Yeah, what's my win letting somebody in on traffic?

02:51:19.000 That's that's a giant problem for fighters too, because you're you're you're at fucking 9,000 RPMs for years, and then all of a sudden boom.

02:51:28.000 And you're supposed to go to normal life now.

02:51:30.000 No, no, and I didn't so this is this is again where fucking this idea of like of like I didn't understand how much of myself was tied up in it and how much I needed to go, it's what I did, not who I am, and understanding like this who I am has a lot longer career than this fighter.

02:51:51.000 Yeah, it's it's it's understanding who I like really getting into the fact that you know I'm much more than just a fighter.

02:52:03.000 You know, and understanding like, okay, what is that?

02:52:07.000 You know, I'm I'm a compassionate person, I'm empathetic, you know, um, you know, I'm trying to be kind and in understanding the people around me.

02:52:16.000 I try to bring um I call it emotional sobriety, right?

02:52:19.000 Like if I'm emotionally honest with the people in my life, everybody else is fits in.

02:52:24.000 If I'm emotionally dishonest, people get fucked up.

02:52:27.000 My environment gets all fucked up.

02:52:28.000 Right.

02:52:29.000 Right?

02:52:29.000 Yeah.

02:52:30.000 You know, so it's like it's understanding these these aspects about my life going, oh God, man, I need to make these the important parts of where I'm building and what I'm building in my life.

02:52:40.000 And it's been you know, it's been a process.

02:52:42.000 It's been some days I'm like, fuck this, man.

02:52:46.000 Fuck this.

02:52:47.000 And other days I'm like, that was just a day.

02:52:51.000 As long as you can keep that clarity of knowing that these fuck this days are gonna pass.

02:52:56.000 Oh god, yeah.

02:52:57.000 Well, I call well in my hall of fame speech, I call it, you know, s at like when I was first getting sober, it was like I just I would try to get through a minute.

02:53:05.000 I go, I just need to make it through this minute, that's all.

02:53:08.000 And then I just need to make it through this next minute.

02:53:11.000 This I just need to get through this next.

02:53:13.000 Some of them are fucking hard because I just wanted to fuck fuck this, because I'm so uncomfortable.

02:53:19.000 You know, and I'd get through that minute, I go, I just need to make it through this hour.

02:53:22.000 I need to just make it through this day, and then it'd be this week, you know, and then all of a sudden it's like a month goes by, but I'd still have to go back, I just need to make it through this fucking minute.

02:53:32.000 Right.

02:53:32.000 You know, like it like so it like it's just it's just how I'm built.

02:53:37.000 You know, like this this just self that just is so restless inside, you know.

02:53:42.000 It's like fuck, you know.

02:53:46.000 Amazing.

02:53:46.000 Do you think that that's that was accelerated by fighting?

02:53:50.000 Or do you think that was a pre-existing thing that drew you to fighting?

02:53:55.000 Um I think it was accelerated by fighting.

02:53:59.000 You know, I do.

02:54:00.000 Um a lot of it just, you know, I'm a competitor.

02:54:05.000 Being a competitor allowed me to fight, but fighting was like hurting another human being to the level that I had to hurt them.

02:54:12.000 That was a whole nother experience.

02:54:14.000 You know, it's like I could wrestle, I can compete, I can do grappling, but to physically beat I I had to flip a switch and turn into this other person that I'm like, fuck, I'm glad I know he's there, but it's like that's not that's not me.

02:54:28.000 Right.

02:54:29.000 You know, it's just this weird dichotomy or this weird that nobody ever really gets to experience except for someone like you.

02:54:36.000 Yeah.

02:54:37.000 Yeah.

02:54:38.000 Or maybe like at another level, a higher level, someone at war.

02:54:42.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:54:43.000 Oh my god, that's I mean, that's you know, I understand why there's you know, a lot of the veterans and what they go through.

02:54:50.000 It's like that's normally that's not how you're built as a human being.

02:54:54.000 Right, you're not supposed to experience that and then come back and just be normal.

02:54:58.000 Normal.

02:54:58.000 Yeah, like it's like oh fuck.

02:55:00.000 That movie hurt locker when he's walking around the supermarket until he wants to go back.

02:55:04.000 Oh my god.

02:55:05.000 It's because it's just one where it's like it's not how I'm built, you know.

02:55:09.000 I have a I have um a lot more compassion as you know for other human beings.

02:55:14.000 But you know, I was glad to know that if I got put in a fucking room with another dude, I was coming out, motherfucker.

02:55:24.000 That was a good thing to know.

02:55:25.000 It's a good thing.

02:55:26.000 It's a good thing to know, right?

02:55:28.000 Yeah, it's a good thing to know.

02:55:30.000 Do you when you look back, do you I mean if you would gotta give yourself advice, when would you think would have been a good time for you to stop fighting?

02:55:45.000 After Fajita.

02:55:46.000 After Fajita?

02:55:47.000 Yeah.

02:55:48.000 Yeah.

02:55:49.000 Cause it because that wa you know what?

02:55:50.000 And and like if people understood like uh that time period, like I got sober, um, I just fought Ensign and then I went and did Abu Dhabi and I and I won my weight class, won the all around, which was a big deal for me at the time.

02:56:07.000 It was a huge deal.

02:56:08.000 And then if I would have won that championship, uh if I would have won the Pride Grand Prix, it would have been mic drop.

02:56:16.000 I could have walked away and it could have been a kabib moment where it's like, oh, I wonder how good he fucking I wonder how good he could have been. 0.99

02:56:23.000 You know, it would have been a complete fucking mic drop, right?

02:56:26.000 Right.

02:56:27.000 But it's just at that moment I I knew that something had changed in me that I didn't have that thing in me that I needed to do it. 'Cause you need a thing in you to do that.

02:56:40.000 You do.

02:56:41.000 And that's what we're talking about, like a gear.

02:56:43.000 You need a different gear, you need a different component to get to that level.

02:56:48.000 Um and if you if you don't have it, it's like you know, they say in the NFL, if you're thinking about retirement, you shouldn't be playing the game.

02:56:55.000 So you were at a point where your dislike of hurting people was interfering with your job.

02:57:04.000 Yeah.

02:57:05.000 Cause I mean, just I had to g I had to just get to a place which is just you know, just a place that I just didn't like being.

02:57:13.000 Right.

02:57:14.000 No, it makes sense talking to you.

02:57:16.000 You know, because it's it's funny you talk to certain people like yourself and and George, like George St. Pierre.

02:57:21.000 I was just hanging out with him the other night, and he p my friends are always like, he's so normal.

02:57:26.000 This is so weird.

02:57:27.000 Like it's so hard to believe that that guy's one of the greatest fighters of all time.

02:57:32.000 But because he's so normal.

02:57:33.000 Yeah.

02:57:34.000 But that that's also the beauty in it.

02:57:37.000 It's that's why people are fascinated by fighting because they want to know what can a normal person do.

02:57:42.000 Yeah.

02:57:42.000 What can a normal person turn himself into?

02:57:45.000 What what is possible?

02:57:46.000 Yeah, and that's that's the I answered that question for myself, right?

02:57:51.000 And it's one where it's like, okay.

02:57:54.000 You know, and it to get for me to get there was was so not difficult, but i like I would watch film of me walking out and I couldn't even recognize myself.

02:58:06.000 Like my facial expression, how I walked, how I carried myself, I'd look at it and go, Well, that doesn't even look like me.

02:58:15.000 Like transforming like into a completely different person.

02:58:19.000 And it's understanding like like compartmentalizing everything, like no emotions, no nothing, singularly focused to one thing, and that thing was I'm gonna impose my will on you till I fucking take yours.

02:58:32.000 That's it.

02:58:34.000 And for me, it just was a darker place for me to go.

02:58:37.000 Right, of course.

02:58:39.000 And uh probably unsustainable if you want to be a happy person.

02:58:42.000 No, you can't.

02:58:44.000 But you can't.

02:58:45.000 In order to be the mark current everybody loved, you kinda had to go there.

02:58:50.000 That's the only way to do it.

02:58:51.000 Yeah.

02:58:52.000 Yeah.

02:58:52.000 That's the wildest thing that most people will never understand.

02:58:55.000 Only a person like yourself who's actually experienced it will really truly understand what those words mean.

02:59:00.000 Yeah.

02:59:00.000 I mean, uh it's just one where it's a nutty requirement of someone.

02:59:04.000 Fuck yeah.

02:59:05.000 A nutty request.

02:59:06.000 Hey, you want to go fight in front of the whole world.

02:59:08.000 Yeah.

02:59:09.000 Yeah.

02:59:10.000 Cause it's it's fucking you talk about vulnerable, like vulnerable, yeah, like fucking barren your soul. 0.98

02:59:17.000 That's you you get to a place of exhaustion, you know, it's weakness.

02:59:23.000 You know, you're showing everybody you're in there, you weren't strong enough to train to the capacity you need to train to to fight, and look at this dude, he's beating the fuck out of you, and you got fucking hot pants on.

02:59:36.000 Right.

02:59:39.000 Right?

02:59:39.000 Uh you have fucking hot pants on and beat in the fuck I so I mean there's that whole thing, it's it's very fucking vulnerable to fight.

02:59:47.000 Cause there's it's just it's just very like the loneliest places, two loneliest places in the world is walking into the ring and after the fight's over.

02:59:57.000 The two loneliest places I've ever been in my Entire life are those two places.

03:00:02.000 Because there's no help when you're walking into the ring.

03:00:04.000 It's just fucking you, and you know that. 0.98

03:00:06.000 And after the fight, it's just you.

03:00:10.000 And you have to live with whatever experience you just had, win, lose, or draw.

03:00:14.000 You know, times I won, I felt empty because it felt like I needed to go do something again.

03:00:20.000 It felt like I needed to go achieve something again.

03:00:23.000 Like everything was so focused on this thing.

03:00:25.000 Once this thing's over, I need another thing.

03:00:27.000 I need to go chase that thing. 0.68

03:00:29.000 Oh, wow.

03:00:29.000 It's this never ending.

03:00:31.000 Like for me, it was this never ending.

03:00:34.000 Because I was trying to be enough.

03:00:36.000 I was just trying to be enough.

03:00:38.000 And I could never get there.

03:00:40.000 Isn't it crazy that that kind of addictive behavior and thinking is almost the only way to make true excellence?

03:00:46.000 I know.

03:00:48.000 It's just so fucked up, right?

03:00:50.000 So like come on.

03:00:52.000 Because I know, I know it doesn't only apply to fighters.

03:00:57.000 I know it's actors.

03:00:58.000 Oh, and I know it's artists and you know, people that yeah.

03:01:02.000 Do you think Steve Jobs had fucking I mean that's again singularly focused.

03:01:07.000 Singularly focused.

03:01:08.000 Yeah.

03:01:09.000 I mean it's just this, it's a yeah, it's the you know, madness and brilliance, you know, are almost of the same vein.

03:01:17.000 Right.

03:01:17.000 And you know, this driven component of me, the the bane of that is that once that thing was over, I had to go fucking chase something else.

03:01:29.000 And I can never fucking sit in that moment and be okay with whatever and you know, again, it's one of those things where it's like thankfully I am designed the way I am, you know, because I'm finally in a place where I'm like, I'm okay with me.

03:01:43.000 I'm completely okay with me.

03:01:45.000 You know, and it's taken me a long time to get here.

03:01:48.000 Well, that's awesome, dude.

03:01:49.000 I'm I'm glad that you got there, and uh I'm glad to just be able to sit down with you and talk to you and tell you how much I appreciate first of all your career.

03:01:57.000 But you've been able to do that smashing machine documentary, I think wasn't just eye-opening for a lot of people to realize like wow, a lot of these guys are struggling in a way that we couldn't even possibly comprehend.

03:02:08.000 It's all they're doing it in in private.

03:02:10.000 This guy just let us into his life.

03:02:12.000 Holy shit.

03:02:12.000 Yeah, like how many more stories are there out there like this?

03:02:15.000 Opens people up to the conversation.

03:02:18.000 But also like having the courage to let people like look at your life like that.

03:02:21.000 I think it's pretty powerful, man.

03:02:23.000 No, I appreciate it.

03:02:24.000 And the movie's great, and the rock, you fucking nailed it.

03:02:26.000 Oh my god, he I mean, the rock, Emily, you know, she nailed it. 0.99

03:02:30.000 Oh my god.

03:02:31.000 She nails crazy with it.

03:02:32.000 She got an A plus.

03:02:33.000 Oh my god, yeah, exactly.

03:02:35.000 For that craziness.

03:02:37.000 Well, thank you, sir.

03:02:38.000 Thanks for being in here, man.

03:02:40.000 I appreciate it.

03:02:41.000 Smashing Machine.

03:02:42.000 It is out October 3rd, right?

03:02:43.000 Is that what I'm October 3rd?

03:02:45.000 Yeah, yeah.

03:02:46.000 It's very good.

03:02:47.000 I appreciate it, Joe.

03:02:47.000 Thank you.

03:02:48.000 And Boss Rutten killed it in it too.

03:02:50.000 Yeah.

03:02:50.000 It was great.

03:02:50.000 All right.

03:02:51.000 Bye everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - September 25, 2025

Joe Rogan Experience #2384 - Mark Kerr

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