The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2388

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Wadcast, check it out.

00:00:03.000 The Joe Logan Experience.

00:00:09.000 All day.

00:00:12.000 How are we doing?

00:00:13.000 We're rolling.

00:00:13.000 Good.

00:00:15.000 Pleasure to meet you, sir.

00:00:16.000 It's about time.

00:00:17.000 Yes.

00:00:18.000 Thank you very much for being here.

00:00:19.000 This is an honor.

00:00:20.000 It is same here, man.

00:00:21.000 How does a person like you fit your life into a book?

00:00:21.000 Same here.

00:00:27.000 Because you're career is so wide and so long.

00:00:34.000 You've had so many experiences from the Commodores in the 70s.

00:00:41.000 The 70s still rocking.

00:00:45.000 70s.

00:00:46.000 So, Joe, let me tell you something.

00:00:48.000 Uh it it really accounts for, I'll tell you the joke of the book first.

00:00:53.000 Okay.

00:00:53.000 Right.

00:00:54.000 I probably the only guy in the world that had a book, had a book with probably a thousand pages in it.

00:00:59.000 I turned a thousand pages in, and they said, What the hell is this?

00:01:04.000 And I said.

00:01:07.000 And I said, and I've got some more stories.

00:01:10.000 I got some more stories.

00:01:11.000 And so for the first time in the history of Harper's, probably they said, Mr. Richie, no more stories.

00:01:16.000 We don't need any more stories.

00:01:17.000 In fact, can we take some of the stories out?

00:01:20.000 So the answer your question, we can't fit all of my life story in a book.

00:01:20.000 Oh no.

00:01:24.000 But we just had to find the ones that were actually, you know, humorous in certain cases, uh, educational in certain cases.

00:01:32.000 Because it's wide.

00:01:33.000 It's it's big and that, and but I enjoyed the process of kind of looking back.

00:01:39.000 Because if you understand me, I I have the Italian race car driver's theory.

00:01:43.000 What's behind me doesn't count.

00:01:45.000 What's in front of me.

00:01:46.000 That's a very good way of looking at life.

00:01:48.000 So what this book made me do was actually turn around and look behind me.

00:01:55.000 And I tell you what I discovered.

00:01:57.000 I I discovered Lionel Richard.

00:02:00.000 Because up to this point I had never really gone into the depths of how I got here.

00:02:06.000 I just remember because you want to you want to forget.

00:02:08.000 You just kept going.

00:02:09.000 Just kept going.

00:02:10.000 Look, keep born straight.

00:02:11.000 You tripped over that.

00:02:12.000 I don't remember.

00:02:13.000 You tripped over that.

00:02:14.000 I don't remember.

00:02:15.000 What's next?

00:02:15.000 Yeah.

00:02:16.000 And you try to kind of, you know, it's like playing football.

00:02:19.000 You got hit really badly on that last play.

00:02:22.000 But you go back to the huddle.

00:02:24.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:02:24.000 Right.

00:02:25.000 Are you hurt?

00:02:25.000 Right.

00:02:26.000 You won't know until tonight after you get off the field, and they'll tell you you broke your arm.

00:02:30.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:02:31.000 But it's it's it's really don't stop moving forward.

00:02:36.000 And that's really what this whole thing was.

00:02:38.000 This exercise in this book was really for me to actually go, hmm, I I can't believe I did that.

00:02:44.000 Did you learn anything about yourself from going back and and just re recalling all these stories and putting them to paper?

00:02:51.000 Did I learn?

00:02:52.000 Did I did I learn?

00:02:53.000 Absolutely.

00:02:54.000 It's if you had said to me uh when I first started, my life, you know, my dad used to always have this line over and over again.

00:03:03.000 You know, uh a great fighter is not determined by how many punches he can throw.

00:03:09.000 It's how many punches he can take.

00:03:13.000 And I realized that I could take punches.

00:03:17.000 Um I'm the most unlikely person to take a punch.

00:03:21.000 Because I'm not that guy.

00:03:23.000 Uh if I can talk my way out of it, I will.

00:03:25.000 But if you understand life itself, number one, that's difficult.

00:03:29.000 And then if you start thinking about the music business, the entertainment business, it's an impossibility.

00:03:35.000 You're gonna get punched every day of your life.

00:03:38.000 And what's that punch?

00:03:39.000 No, no, no, no.

00:03:42.000 That's the punch.

00:03:43.000 Now, can you get up off the floor and come back?

00:03:45.000 Can you get a bad review and come back?

00:03:48.000 Can they not like you and you come back?

00:03:50.000 Can you find that that's a humorous thing instead of a tragic thing?

00:03:53.000 Can you come back?

00:03:54.000 Can you lose friends along the way?

00:03:56.000 Can you come back?

00:03:57.000 So you don't really realize you know, this is a business.

00:04:02.000 If you look at it, think about how many people we've lost.

00:04:05.000 When I started writing this book, I started thinking to myself, where's Luther?

00:04:12.000 Where's Michael?

00:04:13.000 I want to tell you more stories about Prince.

00:04:16.000 But it's not fair because in certain cases, I want him to be here to laugh with the joke too.

00:04:21.000 Right.

00:04:21.000 You follow me?

00:04:22.000 Yeah.

00:04:22.000 And so then you start realizing, damn, this is lucky.

00:04:26.000 This is really blessed time now because I'm in rare survival air, if you will.

00:04:32.000 I'm still here at at 200 years old talking about my career, but I'm telling the story.

00:04:37.000 Someone else is not telling it for me.

00:04:40.000 That's important.

00:04:41.000 That's important.

00:04:41.000 Right.

00:04:42.000 Because so many times when someone passes, and then you get this sort of cobbled together version of their life without their own unique personal perspective.

00:04:52.000 You miss a lot.

00:04:53.000 You miss a lot.

00:04:54.000 And especially things that people thought were terrifying or tragic.

00:05:02.000 If you talk to the person themselves, that was a learning experience.

00:05:06.000 So you keep thinking, oh my God, what did you do when that happened?

00:05:08.000 And you go, no, no, no, no, no.

00:05:09.000 I needed that.

00:05:11.000 Because I wouldn't have been to the next person if I had not experienced that.

00:05:15.000 Because it's it's like trying to go, you know, to scrimmage before a big game.

00:05:20.000 You're you're with your team.

00:05:22.000 Well, they hit harder from the other team.

00:05:25.000 So you gotta practice hard.

00:05:28.000 Well, the only way to get into the music business, you gotta be on the field.

00:05:32.000 Practice is not in the equation.

00:05:35.000 Right.

00:05:36.000 You gotta get out on the field, and it's nasty, and it's not designed for you to survive.

00:05:42.000 And I try to say this to the kids on American Idol.

00:05:45.000 I said, listen, I love you.

00:05:46.000 You got a great personality, but you better hope, like hell, you have a sense of humor.

00:05:52.000 Because if you don't, it's gonna eat you up a lot.

00:05:57.000 Did you develop this mentality along the way, or was this something that you just uniquely had?

00:06:04.000 Um, I this is my this is my character.

00:06:07.000 I I I if you understand something, I was, and I tell this joke all the time, I was I was um too small to play football, too short to play basketball.

00:06:16.000 Um baseball was a projectile coming at me at 300 miles an hour, I'm not standing in front of that thing.

00:06:21.000 And the only thing I could play was tennis.

00:06:23.000 So you understand uh walking around on a tennis court in the middle of the similar civil rights movement, you know, it's you have to develop a sense of humor, otherwise you're gonna die.

00:06:33.000 And so I I found also, again, it's funny what your father will say to you, uh back and you wonder how did he get through all of his life?

00:06:44.000 Because they went through the struggle of life.

00:06:46.000 And he said, if you lose your sense of humor, they got you.

00:06:51.000 And I always remembered the fact that if you can find something funny out of this experience, take that ha-ha to the next day.

00:07:01.000 And so I kind of use that as my mantra, basically, that okay, um, where am I?

00:07:09.000 I'm at the Grammys.

00:07:10.000 Okay.

00:07:11.000 What am I complaining about?

00:07:12.000 I'm complaining about I don't like my seat.

00:07:15.000 What did they just say?

00:07:17.000 I won.

00:07:18.000 Who cares?

00:07:22.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:07:23.000 Yeah.

00:07:23.000 Or you're just at the Grammys.

00:07:25.000 You know how many people don't get to come to the Grammys.

00:07:28.000 Just on the invitation.

00:07:28.000 Right.

00:07:30.000 And so you have to go back and look at this as far as is it really that serious?

00:07:36.000 Or, you know, you have to kind of put things in perspective.

00:07:39.000 And so, you know, the first half of my career was just a matter of how do I get there?

00:07:47.000 The second half of my career is can I please try to enjoy a little bit of it?

00:07:52.000 And that's where I am right now, because you know, it's the songs stuck around.

00:07:57.000 More importantly, I'm still here, which is the blessing.

00:08:01.000 Because you're still here and you look great.

00:08:03.000 Well, I'll take that as a complimentary.

00:08:04.000 You really do.

00:08:05.000 You look very healthy and energy.

00:08:07.000 Looking at you across the table from me, I I think I left my muscles back in the hotel room.

00:08:12.000 But you know, it's it's all about um two and a half hour show a night for the last 50 years.

00:08:21.000 Um that's my uh that's my golf game.

00:08:25.000 Training.

00:08:26.000 Training.

00:08:26.000 Because you gotta be ready for two and a half hours, and I don't care what you think, you're the greatest guy in the world.

00:08:32.000 I'll put you on that stage and give you 50,000 people, and you after running with a night or all night long, sing a so sing a slow song.

00:08:42.000 I dare you.

00:08:44.000 Yeah.

00:08:45.000 And do it since 1970.

00:08:47.000 Like, what was the Commodore 72?

00:08:49.000 Did you guys start?

00:08:50.000 Well, let me tell you, we started in 68.

00:08:52.000 On the on the university campus.

00:08:52.000 Whoa.

00:08:55.000 We were students.

00:08:56.000 Uh it started out as a group called the Mystics.

00:08:59.000 And we were the talent show, we didn't realize that we were the joke of the seniors of the juniors.

00:09:05.000 But they have a freshman talent show every year, and we wanted to be the band to be the freshman talent show.

00:09:12.000 We came out on stage and killed it.

00:09:15.000 And it was a guy, another group there called the Jays, which was the seniors.

00:09:20.000 They had been there for the last four years, and they were the biggest group on campus.

00:09:24.000 They were about to break up.

00:09:26.000 And a guy named Michael Gilbert gave us a phone call and said, I want to put a group together, and I was looking at you four guys.

00:09:35.000 Would you like to come and join this band over here?

00:09:39.000 The answer is that was the beginning of the Commodores.

00:09:41.000 And how old were you at the time?

00:09:43.000 Nineteen years old.

00:09:44.000 Wow.

00:09:45.000 Thank you very much.

00:09:46.000 Wow.

00:09:47.000 Nineteen years old, and we're gonna take over the world.

00:09:51.000 Joe, you know what I mean?

00:09:52.000 Other words, you know, there's the there's James Brown, there's Marvin, and there's the Commodores.

00:09:59.000 You know, you know how that works, you know.

00:10:01.000 And what I love about that period of time, i we could be, you know, all right, all wrong, but we were all together.

00:10:12.000 It didn't make any difference.

00:10:14.000 So we experienced every possible imaginable part of growing up together.

00:10:21.000 I didn't grow up with brothers.

00:10:22.000 I had one sister.

00:10:23.000 So these became forget the band.

00:10:25.000 These were five brothers, and we were in every disaster you could probably think about, and we laughed our way in and out of every today we'd all be in jail.

00:10:38.000 I can make that statement.

00:10:40.000 I mean, but back then uh it was it was the best.

00:10:43.000 And at 19 years of age, you're just started starting to become a man, and then you're thrust into super stardom in a crazy time in human history.

00:10:56.000 It was, well, first of all, it we didn't really get into recording until 7172.

00:11:04.000 We were just the biggest, largest, most dynamic band in our heads across the South, and until we were the opening act for the Jackson Five, their first tour that they went out on, we were the opening act for them.

00:11:20.000 That was our first look at holy crap, this is this is huge.

00:11:25.000 And then I'm I'm an economics major, an accounting minor, and all of a sudden I kept thinking, I don't know what this business is, but um, I think I want to be in it.

00:11:38.000 Because you have to understand something.

00:11:40.000 When you play tennis, what's the number one thing you will never hear ever?

00:11:46.000 A girl screaming.

00:11:48.000 That's not gonna happen.

00:11:49.000 Football, basketball, you hear them all day long.

00:11:52.000 I was going to be an episcopal priest, thinking that's my avenue, and I'm on stage one night, uh, the Jackson show, and all of a sudden, some girl said, Sing it, baby.

00:12:04.000 And I said, call the minister back on the phone.

00:12:07.000 I said, I don't think I'm gonna be priest material.

00:12:13.000 I just want you to understand.

00:12:14.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:12:16.000 You have to know at that point.

00:12:19.000 You have to identify your lane.

00:12:21.000 You know, I had never heard that uh Joe in my life.

00:12:23.000 Of course.

00:12:24.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:12:25.000 And how many people ever get to hear babies?

00:12:28.000 20 21 years old.

00:12:29.000 Yeah, right.

00:12:30.000 I got an emotion.

00:12:31.000 Thank you very much.

00:12:32.000 And from that point on, it was just a matter of riding this wave of we finished that Jackson tour.

00:12:40.000 Um, we ended up in Motown, Hollywood Bowl.

00:12:44.000 They saw Motown saw us there.

00:12:46.000 Suzanne De Pass was, of course, the one who put the the Jacksons together and all that.

00:12:51.000 She knew us from uh from uh our manager, Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard Island.

00:12:58.000 Next to me, we know we're recording.

00:13:01.000 Wow.

00:13:02.000 Hallelujah.

00:13:03.000 And then you're off to the races.

00:13:05.000 We're off to the races.

00:13:09.000 Off to the races, Joe.

00:13:10.000 And I tell you, you know, looking at this book, it's a question, I survived, or how I survived.

00:13:24.000 But the question to me was, I survived.

00:13:28.000 Because it it's not it's I mean, I I can tell your stories and it's well they're in the book, but I'm just saying there are moments when you just look around and go, thank God for just being naive, young, stupid, didn't have any idea of what the heck you were doing, but what a great adventure.

00:13:47.000 I'm in a subway, four o'clock in the morning, my saxophone, and I had this little secret thing that no one knew.

00:13:55.000 I had this s seath, shh seash.

00:13:59.000 See around my neck.

00:13:59.000 Sheath?

00:14:03.000 Didn't know it had a secret compartment.

00:14:04.000 Of course, everybody in Harlem knew it was a secret compartment.

00:14:07.000 I had all my money in that, and I'm walking around going, no one knows I have my money in there.

00:14:11.000 Right.

00:14:12.000 Which is everybody had my money in there.

00:14:15.000 I would walk up and down the subway, no one would touch us.

00:14:20.000 No one.

00:14:20.000 I don't know.

00:14:21.000 It has to be a sense of divine guidance.

00:14:25.000 Or Big Frank Lucas just told everybody, don't touch us.

00:14:28.000 One or the other.

00:14:29.000 But I mean, it was just one of those moments in time where, you know, uh uh I've had some people say to me, You were in Harlem at four o'clock in the morning in the subway alone.

00:14:40.000 I said, Yeah.

00:14:41.000 With a saxophone.

00:14:42.000 With a saxophone.

00:14:43.000 God bless you, kid.

00:14:45.000 Wow.

00:14:46.000 God bless you.

00:14:48.000 It's it must seem almost surreal looking back.

00:14:53.000 Because you've had such an incredible life.

00:14:56.000 Such an incredible career.

00:14:57.000 It almost I mean, I can't imagine what it feels like just reminiscing and going through the stories and and just looking at the actual facts of what you did.

00:15:09.000 I'm glad I'm doing the book now, because otherwise I would be um, let's say when I got to about 98, 99, because I'm planning on a full life, right.

00:15:23.000 There's an old man at the barbershop still telling lies about his life when he was growing up.

00:15:28.000 You know, because they it has to be a lie.

00:15:30.000 You know, and and you know there was one title I was joking around with, which is You're not gonna believe this shit.

00:15:39.000 That would be a great title.

00:15:40.000 That would be the title, you know, and I was thinking that might be the way to go.

00:15:43.000 Then of course I kept thinking, no, but from a philosophical point of view, that's not gonna fly.

00:15:47.000 Okay, we'll pull that back.

00:15:47.000 Right.

00:15:49.000 But the point is, it's almost not believable.

00:15:52.000 I mean, when you start calling off names, it's almost like name-dropping.

00:15:59.000 And you start thinking about who mentored you, who gave the advice, who was there for you exactly at the right time, who came in, who left right on time.

00:16:12.000 There are moments that happen that if I tried to script this thing, if I try to put it down as a complete play, chapter by chapter, you know, act by act, you couldn't make this up.

00:16:12.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:16:26.000 I mean, it just it reads like a like a book.

00:16:30.000 Or like a crazy movie.

00:16:32.000 Like if your life was a movie, I'd be like, Yeah.

00:16:35.000 That seems a little unrealistic.

00:16:36.000 Yeah.

00:16:37.000 Too many good things happen to that.

00:16:38.000 But all yeah, to the point where somebody says, uh I I remember a couple of my uh friends, uh um, why am I drawing a book like um Rick James.

00:16:38.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:16:51.000 Rick James had a great line for me.

00:16:53.000 Every time he saw me, I say, Rick, how you doing?

00:16:55.000 I hate you.

00:16:58.000 And that means I love you, but I hate you.

00:17:01.000 I I hate you, man.

00:17:03.000 And of course, I get it, you know, because things along the way become almost charmed.

00:17:14.000 You know, it's like, okay, um, did I go out and call Dick Clark and say I wanted to host the American Music Awards?

00:17:14.000 Right.

00:17:23.000 No.

00:17:24.000 No.

00:17:24.000 He he called me us and said, Lionel, forget that guy in New York.

00:17:28.000 Look at that guy in New York.

00:17:30.000 You you're doing it.

00:17:31.000 I mean, you forget that guy.

00:17:31.000 You're doing it.

00:17:33.000 Now, whoever that that guy was, the gift was handed to me.

00:17:37.000 And now I spent the next two or three weeks trying to convince Mr. Clark that I don't have any training in how to be a host.

00:17:49.000 And that's when he would come to me and say, Ah, yeah, you schoolboys are all the all the same.

00:17:54.000 You think you need a diploma before you think you know something.

00:17:58.000 You know, these lines that come out of this whole story, you know, uh that's not orchestrated.

00:18:04.000 That's not scripted.

00:18:06.000 It came from the other side back this way.

00:18:09.000 Yeah.

00:18:10.000 Do you feel charmed?

00:18:11.000 Yes.

00:18:12.000 I feel like a reason.

00:18:12.000 Yeah.

00:18:14.000 The word I'll use is blessed.

00:18:16.000 Um it's one of those things where uh my grandmother said something to me a while a while back.

00:18:24.000 I just finished um, I just finished Endless Love.

00:18:29.000 And uh I went back to Tuskegee, and I'm walking around in the house pacing back and forth.

00:18:35.000 She says, What on earth are you doing?

00:18:38.000 And I said, I'm trying to figure out my next move.

00:18:42.000 And she said, Did you come to school to uh join the Commodore?

00:18:47.000 She said, No, no, I I I I met them, I met them on the campus.

00:18:50.000 She said, Did you plan on being a writer?

00:18:52.000 No, no, no, no, I found out I was a writer.

00:18:55.000 She said, Did you plan on being a lead singer?

00:18:57.000 No, no, no.

00:18:58.000 No, I I found out when I joined the group that she said, Why don't you just get a good night's sleep and wait for God to give you the next one?

00:19:05.000 Wow.

00:19:07.000 And that's how I started my career.

00:19:10.000 That's an incredible woman.

00:19:11.000 You know, that's incredible perspective.

00:19:13.000 Quit trying to figure this out.

00:19:15.000 Did you figure it out before?

00:19:16.000 No.

00:19:16.000 Then just relax.

00:19:19.000 Chill out.

00:19:20.000 Can you read or write music?

00:19:22.000 Okay.

00:19:22.000 No.

00:19:23.000 Just chill out.

00:19:25.000 That's so hard to tell a young person, though, and have them absorb it.

00:19:28.000 Because especially someone going through what you're going through.

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00:20:41.000 Yeah.

00:20:41.000 It's um I try to tell the kids on American Idol, you know, sometimes you have to look at failure as a great sign.

00:20:53.000 If they had told the Commodores on the first time we auditioned, you got it, ready to go.

00:21:00.000 The answer is we weren't ready to go.

00:21:03.000 It took no and no and no.

00:21:05.000 And we edit signing at Atlantic, no.

00:21:08.000 Signing at Philly International, no.

00:21:12.000 But we're the greatest band ever.

00:21:14.000 You're right.

00:21:15.000 What did uh they say to us?

00:21:17.000 Um you sound just like the temptations.

00:21:21.000 You sound just like Slying the Family Stone.

00:21:24.000 What do you sound like?

00:21:27.000 Wow.

00:21:29.000 What do we sound like?

00:21:30.000 I don't know.

00:21:32.000 So the only way we have to find out is we have to start not imitating somebody else.

00:21:38.000 Now comes the thing of, well, what do we sound like?

00:21:41.000 Right.

00:21:42.000 And I didn't know.

00:21:43.000 I didn't know how to write.

00:21:45.000 So I uh how do you write?

00:21:48.000 You follow me?

00:21:49.000 And then you get to Motown.

00:21:50.000 I'm signed to Motown.

00:21:54.000 I don't know how to read or write music.

00:21:56.000 What the hell am I doing here with this band?

00:21:58.000 I'm not the lead singer.

00:22:00.000 I sing some cover songs.

00:22:01.000 And then you walk down the hall and there's Marvin.

00:22:04.000 So I decide I'm going to interview Marvin.

00:22:07.000 Uh excuse me, Marvin.

00:22:09.000 Uh what music conservatory did you graduate from?

00:22:12.000 And he said, What the hell is that?

00:22:16.000 I said, Well, I mean, how do you write your music?

00:22:18.000 He said, No, no, little brother.

00:22:20.000 Can you hum?

00:22:21.000 Yeah.

00:22:21.000 He says, all that you can't play with three fingers, hum it into a taper coder.

00:22:27.000 And then you go down the hall again.

00:22:30.000 And it's smoky.

00:22:31.000 And there's Barry Gordy, who built Motown.

00:22:34.000 Uh excuse me, Mr. Gordy, what uh what university did you graduate from?

00:22:38.000 He said, I'm at I was at a car plant.

00:22:40.000 What are you talking about?

00:22:42.000 Everything that I grew up with on the campus of Tuskegee as a kid.

00:22:47.000 I grew up on the university campus.

00:22:49.000 That's academia.

00:22:51.000 Did not apply in the world of hustle.

00:22:54.000 Mmm.

00:22:55.000 You understand?

00:22:56.000 Yeah.

00:22:57.000 So I'm now meeting the guys and ladies who found their hustle.

00:23:02.000 They got a PhD in hustle.

00:23:03.000 They had a PhD in hustle.

00:23:06.000 And I am telling you, Joe, from that moment on, I was let out of the box.

00:23:12.000 Somebody let me out of the cage.

00:23:14.000 Because in academia, there's a logical reason why you know what you know because you studied it.

00:23:21.000 Right.

00:23:22.000 But I was that kid that was sitting in the class going.

00:23:29.000 Mr. Richie, Mr. Richie.

00:23:32.000 Would you like to join the rest of the class?

00:23:36.000 I was daydreaming.

00:23:37.000 I found at Motown, the whole damn company was tapping on the table.

00:23:37.000 Right.

00:23:43.000 I found out in New York City, whole town is tapping on the table and dancing, right?

00:23:48.000 And so from that point on, I joined this creative source force, fraternity sorority of crazy out of control that gave me permission to dare to listen to myself.

00:24:05.000 That must have been so exciting to learn that.

00:24:08.000 That the structure that you learned in academia.

00:24:11.000 Like, no, these wizards.

00:24:12.000 These wizards of music, these masters of uh giving people emotion and power and energy.

00:24:12.000 No, no.

00:24:20.000 Right.

00:24:20.000 I mean, I I I get chill sitting talking to you, watching Marvin record.

00:24:26.000 And you keep thinking he walked in with a paper and he had written these lyrics.

00:24:30.000 No, man.

00:24:31.000 He is scatting at the microphone.

00:24:34.000 Really?

00:24:35.000 Oh, say the baby.

00:24:37.000 You know.

00:24:38.000 And I'm thinking myself, what am I watching?

00:24:41.000 Why?

00:24:41.000 And then he said, bring the microphone over to the couch.

00:24:45.000 He's on the couch, singing in the couch in the control room.

00:24:49.000 What was it?

00:24:50.000 When am I watching?

00:24:52.000 What's happening?

00:24:53.000 In other words, i i it was just so organic and so, you know, because you think about the orchestra and they're there and the No man, this is inside of a wonderful dream of watching creativity just explode with no doors, no windows, no walls.

00:25:17.000 And he was making this up in real time.

00:25:20.000 Wow.

00:25:21.000 You're talking about freestyle.

00:25:23.000 My man was freestyling, coming up with some of the greatest lyrics ever on life's planet.

00:25:28.000 And I kept thinking, okay, so let me go back and put that in my little hamper.

00:25:33.000 So did he have an idea of where he was going with these songs?

00:25:39.000 I think he had a feeling about the idea.

00:25:43.000 But did he know the exact words?

00:25:45.000 You know, it's like when you close your eyes and you're in it.

00:25:49.000 But see, I didn't understand how to be in it.

00:25:49.000 Yeah.

00:25:52.000 You know, I I kept thinking, well, let me put it this way.

00:25:56.000 I was trying to think.

00:25:58.000 So you because of the academic background.

00:26:00.000 Yeah, you're trying to logically.

00:26:03.000 There's a logical reason why you're about to say what you're going to say.

00:26:07.000 Right.

00:26:08.000 Instead of just saying, okay, just turn on the mic.

00:26:12.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:26:12.000 Yeah.

00:26:14.000 Just turn on the mic, man.

00:26:15.000 I got it.

00:26:16.000 You know, to this day, I I have a thing that I do that still wears out my management.

00:26:21.000 And um I have to do a speech or something, and they say, okay, uh, can you give me the speech so we can put it on the teleprompter?

00:26:29.000 And I said, I I I don't have a speech to give you.

00:26:33.000 Lionel, we need the speech to put on the teleprompter so you'll know what to say.

00:26:39.000 I I I don't know what I'm gonna say.

00:26:42.000 What do you mean you don't know what to say?

00:26:43.000 I said, no.

00:26:44.000 I won't know what I'm gonna say until I get there.

00:26:48.000 And I walk out on stage.

00:26:50.000 I said, now how long do you want the speech?

00:26:51.000 They said, Well, could we have five minutes?

00:26:53.000 I'll give you five minutes worth of speech.

00:26:55.000 They just have to trust you.

00:26:58.000 Wow.

00:26:59.000 That's how I do it.

00:27:00.000 And you learn from watching the grades.

00:27:03.000 The greats.

00:27:04.000 And there must have been such an unique shift in perspective and how you view the world and how you approach things.

00:27:12.000 To see people, to know that you're daydreaming was actually just talent trying to burst free.

00:27:18.000 Exactly.

00:27:20.000 And they knew how to just take that talent and just be unharnessed.

00:27:24.000 It was to the point where I was actually trained.

00:27:31.000 You know, this is Grandma Foster, A.M. Foster.

00:27:36.000 She courted my grandfather in Booker T. Washington's house.

00:27:42.000 That's where she came from, Tuskegee.

00:27:45.000 My grandfather, they knew Booker T. She knew George Washington Carver.

00:27:51.000 In my home in Tuskegee, Alabama, there's a crocheted piece from Mr. Carver, Dr. Carver.

00:27:59.000 My dear Mrs. Foster, congratulations on your wedding.

00:28:03.000 Wow.

00:28:03.000 That's a crochet piece.

00:28:05.000 The D to My House has the Washington family's name on the deed to my house.

00:28:11.000 It was given to me and not to me, to my grandmother and grandfather by the Washington family Booker T. So now when you have all that background, it's kind of one of those things where where do you go with this thing, you know?

00:28:25.000 Right.

00:28:26.000 And so, you know, my upbringing was pretty pretty amazing where it had structure, had structure.

00:28:34.000 And now here I am over in this other side where wait a minute, you mean I don't have to remember anything, I can make up something.

00:28:45.000 Whoa.

00:28:46.000 And allow the universe to just give you.

00:28:49.000 Whoa.

00:28:50.000 Well, I can just make up something.

00:28:54.000 But what do you want to make up?

00:28:56.000 I don't know.

00:28:58.000 So then it's a word that we learned called receiving.

00:29:01.000 Ooh.

00:29:02.000 I'm just receiving.

00:29:04.000 So now where does receiving come from?

00:29:06.000 Yeah.

00:29:07.000 Receiving comes from the silence.

00:29:10.000 It's not the noise, it's in the silence.

00:29:14.000 Right.

00:29:15.000 So here I am between one and six in the morning.

00:29:20.000 And everyone thinks, what's Lionel doing?

00:29:24.000 He's just kind of sitting in there.

00:29:26.000 What's he doing?

00:29:28.000 Nothing.

00:29:29.000 But let me hear let me let you in on a little sound that's terrifying to most people.

00:29:35.000 You ready for this?

00:29:39.000 You hear that, Joe?

00:29:41.000 Silence.

00:29:42.000 Right?

00:29:42.000 Now if you can hear...

00:29:44.000 *clicks*

00:29:50.000 Out of the silence comes the you're receiving that from the other side.

00:29:57.000 It is a receiving, isn't it?

00:29:59.000 When you you know, sometimes you just have to just blanket out.

00:29:59.000 Yeah.

00:30:04.000 Some people call it meditation.

00:30:06.000 Some people have all kind of names for it.

00:30:08.000 I just love to listen to silence.

00:30:11.000 By the way, there's only 12 notes, Joe.

00:30:14.000 It's not 145 notes.

00:30:16.000 It's only 12 notes.

00:30:18.000 So everything that has ever happened that you've ever heard on any radio, it's only 12 notes.

00:30:24.000 So how do you turn 12 notes into something that sounds new, different?

00:30:30.000 That's amazing to me.

00:30:31.000 Yeah.

00:30:32.000 It is amazing.

00:30:33.000 And so in the silence, and all you have to do is learn how to figure out what are the four chords.

00:30:40.000 Because if you got four or five chords, you can write a whole album.

00:30:44.000 But it's the melody that goes on top that you have to be able to hear.

00:30:48.000 And so once I learned that Marvin and Smokey and Michael, Quincy, and you know, these are Hendrix.

00:30:59.000 I just saw the poster coming in, you know.

00:31:02.000 They all made careers, not only careers, they had their unique sound out of 12 notes.

00:31:09.000 Think about that.

00:31:12.000 Now, if you think it's hard enough to get a hit record, how do you become unique unto yourself with those 12 notes?

00:31:19.000 That is one of the geniuses of Hendrix is that you could tell Hendricks with like in three seconds.

00:31:25.000 He didn't have to come in singing.

00:31:27.000 No.

00:31:28.000 You just heard a little bit of a new done.

00:31:31.000 Yeah.

00:31:32.000 Doo-doo, done.

00:31:33.000 Doom doom, done.

00:31:34.000 Doo-doo.

00:31:34.000 Doom.

00:31:37.000 Yeah, right.

00:31:38.000 The Six was nine.

00:31:39.000 That's Hendrix.

00:31:40.000 Like there's a sound that he was able to make.

00:31:42.000 And there's very few people that figure out how to do that.

00:31:45.000 I did I did not understand that.

00:31:48.000 Um the blessing was not in having a hit record.

00:31:52.000 The blessing was in having unique sound.

00:31:55.000 Okay.

00:31:56.000 Stevie sounds like Stevie.

00:31:57.000 Smoking sounds like Smoky.

00:31:59.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:32:00.000 And so when you start thinking about, okay.

00:32:03.000 Now by the way, you can't rehearse that.

00:32:06.000 That's either your gift or you can't say, well, I'm gonna work on my sound.

00:32:11.000 No.

00:32:12.000 No, you it's it's a real thing.

00:32:14.000 That's why when we do we uh um when we do American Idol, I tell them over and over again, I'm not looking for singers, I'm looking for stylist.

00:32:23.000 What's gonna make me close my eyes and remember you?

00:32:26.000 I don't want to see you.

00:32:28.000 Can I identify you by your voice?

00:32:30.000 That's a career.

00:32:32.000 Mmm.

00:32:34.000 Mmm.

00:32:36.000 Do you have conversations with people that don't know how to receive?

00:32:41.000 And do you try to like when you're talking to a young artist, and maybe they're a little bit too technical or maybe they're a little bit too constrained.

00:32:50.000 Do you have conversations with them about what do you say to them?

00:32:54.000 Yeah.

00:32:55.000 I do.

00:32:56.000 Um, and I could see their frustration, you know.

00:33:00.000 Um Lionel, I can't believe it's amazing how you went to that augmented seventh with the diminished nine with a raised 18th with a 45.

00:33:09.000 And I'm sitting there going, I can't read music.

00:33:11.000 And he goes, and the way you did that modulation from a body.

00:33:16.000 And I said, I can't read music.

00:33:17.000 And he kept saying, and the way you turn that vocal around, it came back down to that augmented seventh over a raised ninth.

00:33:24.000 And I kept saying, I can't read music.

00:33:26.000 Wow.

00:33:27.000 So I try to tell them, listen, forget the notes.

00:33:32.000 Can the crowd sing your song?

00:33:36.000 If they can't sing your song, dazzling them with notes is not gonna get it.

00:33:43.000 That's the first thing.

00:33:44.000 That's for the guys who can read and write and do the full Juilliard at Berkeley and killer.

00:33:50.000 That's for them.

00:33:51.000 Now, for the kids who are just brilliant, by the way, and they know their music, but they don't know how to receive.

00:34:01.000 My answer now is now that you know the technical, forget it.

00:34:05.000 Ooh.

00:34:07.000 Now, tell me what you're feeling.

00:34:11.000 Now play that.

00:34:13.000 And instead of playing 15 chords, play one and hum as much as you can holding that one chord.

00:34:23.000 And then when you get tired of putting everything in that one chord, that's the second chord coming up.

00:34:29.000 You follow me?

00:34:30.000 Yeah.

00:34:31.000 Because what happens is musicians, they want to go, we are the do-do-da-da-boo, ding-da-ba.

00:34:36.000 No, no, no.

00:34:37.000 Stop playing.

00:34:38.000 Bang, we are the world.

00:34:41.000 Bang, we are just keep holding that go.

00:34:43.000 Bang, we are the ones that make it bright a day.

00:34:45.000 That's how gabby.

00:34:46.000 Bang, there's a bang.

00:34:50.000 Now you change.

00:34:50.000 Yeah.

00:34:52.000 You follow me?

00:34:52.000 Yeah.

00:34:53.000 Because if you confuse me and you dazzle the world with all of your musicianship, you just miss the melody that the whole world can sing.

00:34:53.000 Yeah.

00:35:01.000 Mmm.

00:35:02.000 You miss the purity.

00:35:04.000 You miss the purity.

00:35:05.000 Yeah.

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00:36:23.000 Wow.

00:36:24.000 Did they get it when you try to tell it to you?

00:36:27.000 Or is it one of those things like you're gonna have to live more?

00:36:29.000 You're gonna have to live more.

00:36:30.000 Yeah, but remember now, when Marvin said to me, he was giving me the words of wisdom when uh when um Norman Whitfield who wrote Cloud Nine and all this, you know, just amazing temptation songs.

00:36:50.000 Cloud Nine, you be what you wanna be.

00:36:55.000 You don't need no responsibility.

00:36:58.000 Everybody come in now.

00:37:02.000 He's playing he's playing one note.

00:37:03.000 Wow.

00:37:04.000 Okay, they hadn't changed yet.

00:37:06.000 He wrote the whole first verse.

00:37:08.000 Okay.

00:37:08.000 Ball of confusion, dun, dunno, dunno.

00:37:11.000 He's still on one note.

00:37:12.000 Wow.

00:37:13.000 Okay.

00:37:14.000 It takes time to understand what that master just told you.

00:37:18.000 Right.

00:37:19.000 You follow me?

00:37:20.000 And then once you understand the simplicity is the secret.

00:37:20.000 Yeah.

00:37:27.000 Mmm.

00:37:28.000 The simplicity is the secret.

00:37:30.000 It's like when you go to a restaurant and they put too much sauce on the steak.

00:37:33.000 I couldn't have given you a better better answer.

00:37:35.000 No, like you just got to do that.

00:37:36.000 Just give me some chicken.

00:37:38.000 Give me fried chicken.

00:37:38.000 Yeah.

00:37:40.000 Give me baked chicken.

00:37:41.000 Give me smothered chicken.

00:37:42.000 Don't get too crazy.

00:37:44.000 Right.

00:37:45.000 And at the end, just give me an apple pie.

00:37:48.000 Just give me keylon pie.

00:37:50.000 Just give me a lemon moran.

00:37:53.000 Give me pumpkin pie.

00:37:53.000 Yeah.

00:37:54.000 You don't have to get crazy.

00:37:55.000 Don't get crazy.

00:37:56.000 We have a deconstructed and I go, just put it together, put the whole thing together and give it to me.

00:38:01.000 You know, that's that's a sometimes with some music, well, it's one of the things you can't connect to.

00:38:06.000 It's like it's overcomplicated.

00:38:07.000 And you hear some music and it's like, oh, there's so much going on.

00:38:10.000 And then you hear some acoustic version of a song.

00:38:13.000 You're like, oh my God.

00:38:15.000 That's it.

00:38:16.000 Oh my God.

00:38:17.000 Yeah.

00:38:17.000 You just hear the the pick scratching across the strings, like, oh my God.

00:38:22.000 Yeah.

00:38:23.000 Mr. Mr. Gordy.

00:38:25.000 I I I've known him enough now where I can say Barry.

00:38:29.000 But he's clearly Mr. Gordy.

00:38:31.000 You know.

00:38:31.000 Clearly.

00:38:32.000 He taught me the greatest line ever.

00:38:35.000 Um I went to him and I met him in the hallway.

00:38:39.000 And he would never ever say, Oh, congratulations, you got a hit record.

00:38:44.000 That's not what he would say.

00:38:46.000 He'd always say, uh.

00:38:48.000 Marvin's got a hit.

00:38:49.000 Marvin's got a smash coming out.

00:38:51.000 I go, Mr. Gordon, I just want to let you know I have a number one record.

00:38:55.000 Marvin's got one coming out.

00:38:56.000 It's gonna be a smash.

00:38:59.000 And then what do you have next?

00:39:03.000 What do you have next?

00:39:05.000 And then I said, okay, well, I I I gotta hit record.

00:39:08.000 He says, um I said, let me go out to the car and get a tape.

00:39:10.000 I want to want you to hear it.

00:39:11.000 No, no, no.

00:39:12.000 You got a hit record, hum it to me.

00:39:14.000 Wow.

00:39:15.000 Hum it to me.

00:39:17.000 If you need to play music, you got a nice tune.

00:39:24.000 There's your tempo.

00:39:27.000 Now hum it to me.

00:39:29.000 Wow.

00:39:30.000 Now that means the the crowd is gonna sing along every go with you.

00:39:33.000 You don't have to wait to the hook.

00:39:35.000 They'll sing the verse with you.

00:39:38.000 What is that pressure like?

00:39:40.000 I would love to tell you it was a pressure.

00:39:43.000 No, I would tell you that there's an old expression.

00:39:43.000 No.

00:39:48.000 Um that a jazz musician said to me years ago, you either understand or you don't.

00:39:56.000 You can either hear it, right, or you don't.

00:40:00.000 That's all it is.

00:40:01.000 In other words, and my line is if you can hear me tapping on the table, and all you hear is me tapping on the table.

00:40:13.000 You're not a songwriter.

00:40:15.000 Uh but if you hear me tap on the table, and you start and you hear a song, yeah.

00:40:21.000 You're a songwriter.

00:40:24.000 Class dismissed.

00:40:26.000 Right.

00:40:26.000 We don't have to waste any more time.

00:40:28.000 It is a bizarre thing that creativity, which is one of the most important things in our society cannot be taught.

00:40:33.000 No.

00:40:34.000 I mean, I mean, you meet brand new person every day.

00:40:40.000 I meet crowds of people.

00:40:41.000 You meet one-on-one people every day.

00:40:45.000 That's difficult.

00:40:47.000 That's difficult.

00:40:48.000 And to know something about them and want them to find out more.

00:40:52.000 And how does your personality work with that other person?

00:40:55.000 That's a skill.

00:40:56.000 But that's not even a skill.

00:40:58.000 That's not something you practice.

00:40:59.000 That's something you had in you from way down deep.

00:41:03.000 It's just the more you do it, you got better and better at being that person.

00:41:08.000 That's exactly correct.

00:41:09.000 Yeah.

00:41:09.000 You follow me?

00:41:09.000 So if I said to you right now, how did you study that Joe?

00:41:12.000 You go, eh, just turn on the turn on the mic.

00:41:15.000 Well, I'm gonna tell you, I got I just got very fortunate that a job existed that didn't exist before, which is podcasting, where you get to talk to interesting people.

00:41:24.000 There you go.

00:41:24.000 And luckily for me, I I don't have anybody telling me who you have on.

00:41:29.000 So I just go through, I have like a line of emails every day, and I'm like, ooh, Lionel Richards.

00:41:35.000 Fuck yeah.

00:41:36.000 I said, fuck out of that one.

00:41:38.000 I put down, I put down, fuck yeah, Lionel Richards.

00:41:41.000 But there's a bunch like that.

00:41:43.000 Ooh, I'd like to talk to him.

00:41:44.000 But there's some guy who's an astronomer.

00:41:46.000 Oh, yeah, bring him on.

00:41:47.000 Let me see some of his stuff.

00:41:48.000 Then I'll go watch some videos, listen to him, give lectures.

00:41:50.000 I'm like, all right.

00:41:51.000 Yeah.

00:41:51.000 But to me, it's just I'm just very fortunate that this is just how my personality is.

00:41:55.000 I'm just curious about how people think.

00:41:57.000 Well, you I mean, again, it's one of those things, out of your natural curiosity, that's you.

00:42:04.000 Yeah.

00:42:05.000 Follow me?

00:42:06.000 Well, out of my natural ADD, ADHD, hypersensitive, whatever they use when I was growing up, I found it all serves me well.

00:42:17.000 It all came out in songwriting.

00:42:19.000 It it does serve you well, which is so important for people to hear.

00:42:22.000 Everybody wants to diagnose everybody and medicate them.

00:42:25.000 I had for sure ADHD when I was a kid.

00:42:27.000 Oh, please.

00:42:28.000 I think everybody that I know that's talented and creative has ADHD, whatever that means.

00:42:32.000 I tell all the parents, leave them alone.

00:42:34.000 Leave them alone.

00:42:35.000 Leave them alone.

00:42:36.000 No, there's there's two types of kids, and I keep trying to tell them.

00:42:40.000 There's academics.

00:42:41.000 They're great.

00:42:42.000 You want them to r remember, they can remember, they can recite, they do numbers, and then there's the creatives.

00:42:49.000 Okay, the last thing you want to do is put a creative kid in a room full of academics.

00:42:56.000 The grades are not going to be great.

00:42:58.000 Right.

00:42:58.000 And you're gonna worry them to death.

00:42:59.000 Yeah.

00:43:00.000 Put them in a creative school where they they're nurtured into their yes, they they they were gonna they're gonna work on math, and yes, they'll work on their science, but don't make that the priority.

00:43:12.000 No one to this day has ever asked to see my college degree.

00:43:17.000 No one to this day has ever asked me to see my high school diploma.

00:43:20.000 You understand?

00:43:21.000 Right.

00:43:22.000 So was I an A student, B student, C student, C student, babes.

00:43:26.000 I mean, I was right there on the borderline of disaster.

00:43:31.000 But I was just happy to be there.

00:43:33.000 But the point was it's not important.

00:43:33.000 Right.

00:43:36.000 Right.

00:43:37.000 What did you end up being?

00:43:38.000 Who did you end up discovering?

00:43:40.000 How comfortable are you with yourself?

00:43:43.000 By the time you get out of elementary school school going into high school, you're so inundated in.

00:43:50.000 Let me tell you what's wrong with uh Lionel.

00:43:52.000 Lionel has a problem with and now if you listen to that crap, by the time you go into college, it's not happening.

00:44:01.000 Right.

00:44:02.000 Now here's the joke.

00:44:03.000 They told my family, my mom and dad, uh truthfully, Lionel is not college material.

00:44:09.000 I mean, in other words, he should be creative.

00:44:11.000 You know who they forgot to tell?

00:44:13.000 Me.

00:44:16.000 The best thing they ever did.

00:44:18.000 They didn't tell me about that conversation.

00:44:20.000 Which means it was okay.

00:44:23.000 I didn't use that as my crutch.

00:44:25.000 Mm-mm.

00:44:26.000 Don't tell somebody they have a handicap, just leave them alone.

00:44:29.000 Just let them figure out what they actually like.

00:44:31.000 Because it's not a handicap.

00:44:32.000 Right.

00:44:32.000 In other words, I I learned years ago, a race car driver.

00:44:38.000 He sees 200 miles an hour as can I get this to go any faster?

00:44:43.000 Magic Johnson, the basketball goal looks like the size of the inside of a of a building.

00:44:50.000 That's how big it is in his head.

00:44:52.000 To me and you, it's a little tiny thing at the other end of the court.

00:44:56.000 You follow me?

00:44:57.000 Yeah.

00:44:57.000 Okay.

00:44:58.000 So my point is, everybody has a unique brain in how they see things.

00:45:03.000 Quit trying to put everybody in this one little box.

00:45:07.000 If we can set up education where let those that see it in freestyle has a freestyle moment.

00:45:14.000 We'll get more out of kids, we'll get more out of people.

00:45:16.000 If you just quit trying to condemn them and let them flourish in their lane, if you will.

00:45:23.000 Yeah.

00:45:23.000 And that's the special part.

00:45:24.000 Yes, okay.

00:45:25.000 Reading and writing, you got it.

00:45:27.000 That's important.

00:45:28.000 And now with with AI coming and all this stuff, you don't have to do that anymore.

00:45:32.000 But I'm just saying it's there's some basics you have to have.

00:45:35.000 But then after that, I think we're we're crippling our kids because we're giving them too many gatas in a world that's constantly changing.

00:45:43.000 Yes, especially now.

00:45:45.000 But if you will if you your child is a creative, the problem is that is such a gamble.

00:45:45.000 Especially now.

00:45:51.000 Say if your child wants to be a lawyer, you go, okay, well, you go to law school, you get your degree, pass the bar, get to work for a firm, you're a lawyer.

00:45:59.000 There's a path.

00:46:00.000 You want to be a singer, like, oh Christ.

00:46:00.000 Right.

00:46:03.000 My recommendation, get the law degree, and then try to be a singer.

00:46:10.000 Have a backup plan.

00:46:12.000 Back up.

00:46:12.000 I mean, in other words, you know, in my case, I didn't have a backup plan.

00:46:16.000 I mean, I I luckily my freshman year, I found that thing, and I mean, how did it work?

00:46:21.000 That's why I said to you, is it divine guidance?

00:46:24.000 It's divine guidance.

00:46:25.000 Yeah.

00:46:26.000 I didn't have a plan B. But I'm sure there would have been one if it was time for that to come into play.

00:46:32.000 If I told you how many lawyers now, excuse me, how many lawyers started out as singers.

00:46:32.000 Yeah.

00:46:41.000 They wanted to be in a band.

00:46:43.000 If I told you how many people that are now on Wall Street, what do they do on the weekends?

00:46:47.000 They have a band.

00:46:48.000 You follow me?

00:46:48.000 Yep.

00:46:49.000 Oh, yeah, it was a lot of that.

00:46:50.000 And so as time goes on, okay, so you're not the lead singer, but you're the lawyer in the record company.

00:46:56.000 Or you're the manager, or you're the agent.

00:46:59.000 You follow what I'm saying?

00:47:00.000 That 99 million jobs under the word entertainment.

00:47:04.000 Right.

00:47:05.000 It's just that maybe you weren't gonna be the star of the show, but you're in the show.

00:47:11.000 That's easy for Lionel Richie to say, though.

00:47:13.000 If you're that lawyer that wishes he was a real problem.

00:47:16.000 I know, and trust me, I run into those guys who hate me.

00:47:21.000 Oh yeah, Lionel Richie.

00:47:22.000 Oh yeah, right.

00:47:23.000 No, I I I get it.

00:47:24.000 Of course.

00:47:25.000 I get it.

00:47:26.000 And and I I understand it it's um and by the way, I mean, the what I like about the book is everyone, just to let you know, it it sounds like, you know, I I won, I won.

00:47:40.000 No, I it was a struggle.

00:47:42.000 I'm the shyest guy in the world.

00:47:44.000 It was painful.

00:47:46.000 Joe walking on that stage, I said it was a freshman talent show.

00:47:50.000 The curtains open, I went off with the curtains.

00:47:54.000 I the only reason that I was on that stage, I didn't grow up with the guys in the mystics.

00:48:00.000 They didn't know that Lionel Richie from Tuskegee, Alabama was the shyest kid in town.

00:48:06.000 They didn't know that.

00:48:07.000 These are guys that I didn't grow up with.

00:48:10.000 Oh.

00:48:10.000 So they said, hey, hey man, you brought your horn?

00:48:12.000 Yeah.

00:48:13.000 You want to be in a band?

00:48:15.000 Now you're talking to a kid who goes, okay, we're gonna do a baseball team.

00:48:20.000 What was the answer?

00:48:21.000 Okay, we'll take Lionel.

00:48:24.000 Which Okay, we're gonna let's do a basketball game.

00:48:27.000 Okay, all right, we'll take Lionel.

00:48:30.000 Let's play football.

00:48:32.000 Okay, we'll take Lionel.

00:48:35.000 These guys came along and said, Hey, you got your horn?

00:48:39.000 Yeah.

00:48:40.000 You want to be in our band?

00:48:42.000 Yeah.

00:48:43.000 Right?

00:48:44.000 Right.

00:48:45.000 Bingo.

00:48:46.000 You mean you don't know about me?

00:48:49.000 You don't have to be defined by other people's ideas of you.

00:48:52.000 That's exactly right.

00:48:53.000 So they said, and they said, okay, here's the part, and I can you play the saxophone?

00:48:57.000 Yeah, man, I played.

00:48:58.000 I didn't tell them I brought the horn to school to learn how to play it.

00:49:02.000 But I could play by ear.

00:49:04.000 I could play by ear.

00:49:07.000 So unless we're reading music, I sound like I know what I'm talking about.

00:49:12.000 Right.

00:49:13.000 So it's became one of those things.

00:49:15.000 And by the time I got in the Commodores, I didn't tell anybody.

00:49:21.000 I'm the greatest hornholder that ever lived.

00:49:23.000 Are you kidding me?

00:49:24.000 Wow.

00:49:25.000 So just keep that secret and keep on going.

00:49:27.000 But what I'm saying to you, just think about This for a moment.

00:49:30.000 I mean, it didn't start out with confidence.

00:49:33.000 It came out with a sooner or later, they're gonna know I'm an imposter.

00:49:41.000 And slowly but surely, who worked the hardest?

00:49:46.000 Me.

00:49:47.000 Because sooner or later they're gonna find out.

00:49:49.000 You gotta catch up.

00:49:50.000 That I gotta catch up.

00:49:52.000 So every time we had some time off, I'm interviewing Marvin, I'm interviewing you name it.

00:49:58.000 Anybody, tell me what you did to get to where you're going.

00:50:01.000 Then I found out nobody went to school to know what they know.

00:50:06.000 Holy crap.

00:50:08.000 Now we're on to something really serious.

00:50:10.000 Because then I had some aha moments.

00:50:13.000 And so if I can't play it, I can hum it.

00:50:15.000 But most of the time I could just play it.

00:50:17.000 Okay, I can play this.

00:50:19.000 And as you learn, you grow quickly.

00:50:22.000 You have to learn quickly now, because we've just signed the contract and said we're now on Motown Records.

00:50:26.000 I gotta do a fast track here.

00:50:29.000 But it happened in real time.

00:50:33.000 At any moment, they could have called up and said, we're gonna cut the group down to the most significant people in the group.

00:50:40.000 Rich, you're out.

00:50:41.000 Oh sh oh shit.

00:50:43.000 So I think I make sure.

00:50:44.000 Let me let me make sure I get this.

00:50:46.000 I'm working harder than anybody you've ever seen before in your life.

00:50:49.000 And so that's how it's a whole life of insecurity.

00:50:55.000 It wasn't secure.

00:50:57.000 And then you get your first song, and you go, oh, okay, okay.

00:51:00.000 That was lucky.

00:51:01.000 Oh, okay.

00:51:02.000 Then the guy said, hey kid, you got any more of those songs?

00:51:05.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:51:06.000 I I I I got another one.

00:51:08.000 You go home and look at the guy in the mirror and go, You got any more songs?

00:51:13.000 Because I'm talking to myself.

00:51:15.000 And that's when you realize, okay, I uh out of fear, I gotta come up with another song.

00:51:21.000 So everyone keeps thinking this this confident guy walking in, I got another song for you.

00:51:27.000 I gotta tell you how many times I walked on stage, Joe, and had a panic attack.

00:51:33.000 Right in the middle of the show.

00:51:34.000 I'm having a massive panic attack.

00:51:36.000 Really?

00:51:37.000 Because I'm supposed to look like I got this.

00:51:42.000 Wow.

00:51:43.000 When actually I don't.

00:51:47.000 But eventually you did.

00:51:49.000 Well, that's what happened to Barbara Schrezer, and that's what happened to.

00:51:52.000 I mean, once you realize as you start interviewing people, the people who are scared to death on stage, and then they realize as time went on, they they got used to it.

00:52:04.000 But I realized the thing that scares you to death is the thing you have to keep going forward on.

00:52:11.000 That's my dad's line again.

00:52:13.000 Yeah.

00:52:13.000 What's the what's the what's the similarity between a hero and a coward?

00:52:18.000 One step forward, yeah, and one step back.

00:52:22.000 No matter how much it scares me, step forward.

00:52:26.000 Yeah.

00:52:27.000 And so each time, I was not gonna say I'm not going on stage.

00:52:31.000 I go on stage and I'm gonna sweat for two hours and try to fake my ass off.

00:52:38.000 And now it's like second nature now.

00:52:40.000 But at the time, give me a break.

00:52:43.000 That's so important for young people to hear that a guy like you would panic.

00:52:47.000 Are you kidding me?

00:52:48.000 Oh my god, man.

00:52:50.000 Have you ever met the president before in life?

00:52:53.000 Have you ever been on stage in front of a hundred thousand people?

00:52:53.000 No.

00:52:56.000 No.

00:52:57.000 Have you ever been in a club with four people in the room looking at you, going, what you gotta do?

00:53:02.000 No.

00:53:03.000 I mean, you know, I mean, listen, I mean, it's that's why when I see these kids on American Idol, I don't know how they do that.

00:53:10.000 I came in with five other guys going, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:14.000 Right.

00:53:14.000 Right, right.

00:53:16.000 They're singing a cappella.

00:53:18.000 Yeah.

00:53:19.000 To me and Carrie and Luke, are you kidding?

00:53:24.000 Excuse me, and 20 million people watching and a billion 200 million uh live impressions.

00:53:31.000 Get the frick out of here.

00:53:32.000 Yeah.

00:53:33.000 So I'm just saying, for me to be this authority, if you will, I can relate to every one of their heartbeats on that stage.

00:53:42.000 I know what they're fearing.

00:53:44.000 That's why when I get around artists, you don't try to blow them away with your importance.

00:53:51.000 First of all, do you need a hug first?

00:53:54.000 What do you need?

00:53:55.000 Let me talk to you for a minute.

00:53:57.000 Because you let me talk you down for because you're You're expecting too much out of us.

00:54:03.000 You follow me?

00:54:04.000 Yes.

00:54:05.000 Because it we're all we're all students of scared to death.

00:54:09.000 Yeah.

00:54:10.000 If you're not, you're you're in the wrong business.

00:54:12.000 And by the way, the the book is not about how I won.

00:54:12.000 That's exactly right.

00:54:15.000 It's how I got not to the peaks, how I survived the valleys.

00:54:21.000 The valleys of insecurity is it, man.

00:54:24.000 How do you get up and go, uh you're gonna host the American Music Awards?

00:54:30.000 Dick wants you to do that.

00:54:32.000 Uh oh okay.

00:54:35.000 Was that a big scary one for you?

00:54:37.000 Because you brought that up a couple of times.

00:54:38.000 That one bothered you a lot.

00:54:39.000 Everything scared me.

00:54:43.000 I know you're not expecting this interview, but I'm pleased.

00:54:49.000 Everything scared me.

00:54:51.000 We have to understand.

00:54:53.000 Um, Lionel, we're going to do uh uh uh instrumental for a movie.

00:54:59.000 It's called uh In This Love.

00:55:02.000 Um I'm only doing Kenny's album.

00:55:05.000 I'm only doing the Commodore's album, but because it's Franco Zefferelli and John Peters and everybody, I'm thinking, okay, I could I can do an instrumental, right?

00:55:16.000 Then halfway through the thing they say, well, we're gonna shoot a scene where we just need the lady to sing a first verse to the person in the in the scene.

00:55:24.000 Can you write a first verse?

00:55:26.000 Uh yeah, yeah.

00:55:27.000 My love, there's only you and my life.

00:55:29.000 The only thing that's right, my first love, you're a breath that I take every step I make.

00:55:34.000 Thank you.

00:55:35.000 Okay, got it.

00:55:36.000 Is that it?

00:55:37.000 Yeah, right.

00:55:38.000 No.

00:55:38.000 Lionel, we've decided now to make this a duet.

00:55:41.000 And we're gonna get Diana Ross to sing uh the the lady's part.

00:55:46.000 Who do you recommend to sing the guy's part?

00:55:52.000 Are you out of your mind?

00:55:54.000 It's me.

00:55:55.000 What are you talking about?

00:55:56.000 You recommend I I I'm not gonna recommend somebody else.

00:56:01.000 I think they were.

00:56:01.000 I think they I think they were backing me in because I told them I don't have time.

00:56:07.000 Right.

00:56:08.000 So I they they baited me by saying, you know, uh uh it's gonna be an instrumental.

00:56:14.000 But by the time I got there, I'm thinking, okay, now here's the problem.

00:56:18.000 Diana's in New York.

00:56:20.000 I'm in LA.

00:56:21.000 I'm doing two albums, Commodores and Kenny Rogers.

00:56:24.000 I'm not going to New York, and she can't come to LA.

00:56:27.000 Where are we gonna meet?

00:56:29.000 Tahoe.

00:56:31.000 Tahoe.

00:56:32.000 We go to Tahoe, but it wasn't even Tahoe.

00:56:34.000 Reno.

00:56:35.000 She's playing Reno.

00:56:37.000 So at the end of my Commodore night, 10 to 6, Kenny Rogers, 6 to 10, Lionel Ritchie.

00:56:46.000 And then 10 to 4 in the morning, I gotta get on a plane, fly to Tahoe, and put Diana Ross on Endless Love.

00:56:56.000 Wow.

00:56:57.000 Now, what you don't know when you're that part of your life, that you could die from having creativity.

00:57:05.000 Too much creative.

00:57:06.000 It was, I mean, it was so exciting, but at the same time, I'd never written a duet.

00:57:13.000 Ever.

00:57:14.000 So my first duet in life was with Diana Ross.

00:57:17.000 Do you think I was nervous?

00:57:23.000 I mean, I just kept praying, God for God's sake, don't let me pass out in front of Mr. Ross.

00:57:30.000 Oh my God.

00:57:31.000 So what I'm just saying to you, the the title of the book could be Scared to Death.

00:57:37.000 I got titles, man.

00:57:39.000 You know.

00:57:39.000 Yeah.

00:57:40.000 Because it's it's not it's the first time of everything.

00:57:45.000 I've never done this before.

00:57:48.000 And so just imagine being put into a situation throughout my entire career.

00:57:54.000 Wow.

00:57:55.000 Where um, you know, step forward, Lionel, step forward, step forward, step forward, step forward.

00:58:02.000 Can you all can you all hear my heart beating?

00:58:04.000 No, okay, good, good.

00:58:05.000 Step forward.

00:58:06.000 Step forward.

00:58:07.000 That's what it's been.

00:58:09.000 Wow.

00:58:10.000 Like I said, that's so important for young people to hear.

00:58:12.000 Because I think they see someone with such a career and so much success, they go, well, that guy's just probably crazy confident and always has been, and just talented, kissed by God.

00:58:21.000 No, no, no.

00:58:22.000 I I I tell people every day what this book did for me, I discovered Lionel Richie.

00:58:31.000 I'm the Italian race car driver.

00:58:33.000 Yeah.

00:58:34.000 I never looked behind me.

00:58:36.000 I never paid attention.

00:58:37.000 And then all of a sudden, this book made me turn around and look behind me.

00:58:43.000 It's interesting because if you want to get things done in life, you kind of have to be the Italian race car driver.

00:58:48.000 But if you want to get this thing done in life, write a book about your life.

00:58:53.000 That requires that introspective thinking.

00:58:55.000 And that recollection and that recognition of like, oh my God, like what did I go through?

00:58:55.000 Yeah.

00:59:01.000 I mean, what was that?

00:59:02.000 I mean, you think about it.

00:59:03.000 Uh, you know, let's I mean, you think, yes, I got to hit record.

00:59:08.000 At the same time, my mother was dying.

00:59:11.000 Now, those two don't go together.

00:59:13.000 You follow me?

00:59:13.000 Right.

00:59:14.000 Yeah.

00:59:15.000 I'm in I'm in the world tour of my life.

00:59:19.000 It's the dancing on the ceiling tour.

00:59:22.000 It's I'm going to establish me around the world.

00:59:25.000 It's the all-night long dancing on the ceiling tour.

00:59:31.000 My father's dying.

00:59:32.000 Oh, God.

00:59:33.000 You follow what I'm saying?

00:59:34.000 I mean, so it's okay.

00:59:38.000 So now, how's Dad doing?

00:59:39.000 Oh, well, he's he's he's doing okay.

00:59:42.000 How's mom doing?

00:59:42.000 Okay, mom, mom.

00:59:44.000 Okay.

00:59:44.000 Should I come home?

00:59:45.000 And Lionel, well, she's okay.

00:59:47.000 She's so you know.

00:59:48.000 But I mean, she's she's okay.

00:59:51.000 But I can cancel the tour and come home.

00:59:54.000 Okay, but I mean, but but how's she doing?

00:59:56.000 Well, my sister's there.

00:59:57.000 She, mom's doing fine.

00:59:58.000 She's doing great.

00:59:59.000 But you don't realize she's in the decline, but you keep trying to balance this, what do I do?

01:00:06.000 You know, and and so it's it's all happening while it's happening.

01:00:06.000 Yeah.

01:00:12.000 And so it's, you know, how do you kind of compartmentalize the show, the writing, and real life family?

01:00:27.000 You know, is it the is it the reunion?

01:00:29.000 We're having the reunion, okay.

01:00:31.000 You know, it's the class reunion, it's the family reunion.

01:00:35.000 It's have you ever been to the family reunion?

01:00:38.000 No.

01:00:38.000 Didn't make the family reunion.

01:00:40.000 Why?

01:00:41.000 Because when you're in the Commodores, when you really have your shows, it's Christmas, New Year's, all the holidays, all summer.

01:00:50.000 So if you happen to have any kind of reunion during those times, you're not gonna make it.

01:00:57.000 So it's the sacrifices.

01:00:59.000 How many barn fires did I make during college?

01:01:01.000 None.

01:01:02.000 Pep rallies, no.

01:01:03.000 Basketball tournaments, none.

01:01:06.000 But I'm the Commodores.

01:01:07.000 We're the Commodores.

01:01:08.000 You follow me?

01:01:09.000 Yeah.

01:01:10.000 So I always tell people what comes with success are the sacrifices.

01:01:16.000 And even after you make the sacrifices, it's not guaranteed that you're gonna win.

01:01:22.000 And your highest of highs, like the all night long days, you're dealing with your father dying.

01:01:27.000 Exactly.

01:01:30.000 So people would just see all they're seeing is you and thousands of people screaming and cheering when you're on stage all over the world, sold-out shows.

01:01:37.000 Yeah, but you're dealing with your father dying.

01:01:39.000 Yeah, you're you're you're dealing with moments.

01:01:45.000 You're trying to pretend like you're not seeing it.

01:01:48.000 You know, there's a moment when you go home and your parents age right in front of you.

01:01:53.000 You never noticed it before.

01:01:56.000 He wasn't dying yet, but you could see the decline until dancing on the ceiling.

01:02:03.000 You see a little bit more of the decline.

01:02:05.000 You follow what I'm saying?

01:02:06.000 And then finally, you realize, holy shit, this is not gonna be good at all.

01:02:11.000 But but you keep pretending like it's not happening, if you know what I mean.

01:02:16.000 You kind of put that in that little compartment.

01:02:19.000 He's getting older, but he's he's okay.

01:02:21.000 He's okay.

01:02:22.000 He's okay, he's okay.

01:02:23.000 The answer is no, he's not.

01:02:25.000 And then from that, you think that everything else in your life is okay.

01:02:30.000 Is the marriage okay?

01:02:31.000 No, it's not okay.

01:02:32.000 Nothing's okay.

01:02:33.000 Why?

01:02:33.000 Because all priorities are going towards this new thing you've never experienced before, called frickin' hit record.

01:02:43.000 Going solo, I'm leaving the Commodores.

01:02:47.000 I'm leaving the Commodores.

01:02:51.000 These are the only five guys I've ever trusted in my life.

01:02:54.000 So everyone keeps thinking, yeah, you went solo.

01:02:57.000 No, no, no, guys.

01:02:58.000 What was that word that comes with that?

01:03:00.000 Scared.

01:03:01.000 Fear.

01:03:02.000 Yeah.

01:03:02.000 So everyone keeps thinking, and then I decided to go solo.

01:03:05.000 Oh shit.

01:03:10.000 What the fuck?

01:03:12.000 Who are you talking to?

01:03:15.000 Leaving the Commodores, too.

01:03:16.000 It's crazy.

01:03:18.000 Come on, man.

01:03:19.000 Joe Commodores is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

01:03:19.000 Crazy.

01:03:23.000 And for you to say, I'm gonna do it on my own.

01:03:26.000 No, no, that's not the way it was.

01:03:31.000 I'm not leaving you guys.

01:03:32.000 What are you talking about?

01:03:34.000 Leaving the Commodores is crazy.

01:03:37.000 I mean, first almost can't.

01:03:39.000 You can't do it.

01:03:40.000 But what was happening behind the scenes?

01:03:43.000 That's the story.

01:03:45.000 What was happening behind the scenes was, and I understood.

01:03:48.000 I understood, but still I didn't want to accept it.

01:03:51.000 It's the guys.

01:03:52.000 Yeah.

01:03:53.000 Okay.

01:03:54.000 The article read, um.

01:03:59.000 And then Lionel Richie sat down to the piano and started playing his classic hits.

01:04:07.000 Review.

01:04:08.000 What's a guy like the Commodore?

01:04:10.000 What's the guy like Lionel Richie doing in a funk band like The Commodores?

01:04:14.000 Joe, try to go back to rehearsal after that review.

01:04:18.000 Oh, God.

01:04:19.000 You got it?

01:04:19.000 Yeah.

01:04:20.000 Or now we've done Endless Love.

01:04:22.000 Now we've done Lady with Kenny Rogers.

01:04:25.000 Tell us, Lionel, how you started the group.

01:04:28.000 Oh no.

01:04:29.000 I I didn't start the group.

01:04:31.000 And now you walk into a group interview, and they knock Clyde over and they knock uh whack over the trouble, Tommy.

01:04:31.000 Oh no.

01:04:40.000 Lionel, tell us about the band.

01:04:42.000 Oh no.

01:04:43.000 So what I tried to do was come later.

01:04:46.000 But by coming later, oh you think you're big enough now where you don't have to be in the group.

01:04:50.000 Well, if I don't if I'm on time, they'll disrespect you.

01:04:55.000 Right.

01:04:56.000 I got the feeling.

01:04:57.000 I got their angst.

01:04:59.000 Yeah.

01:05:00.000 And this is a different time in the world.

01:05:00.000 You follow me?

01:05:02.000 See, today you could elevate those folks through social media and bring them up with you.

01:05:06.000 Of course, of course.

01:05:08.000 That's the beauty of today.

01:05:10.000 If you're working with talented people and they're not getting shine, you go, hey, this is this guy's great.

01:05:10.000 Of course.

01:05:14.000 Yeah.

01:05:15.000 Everybody go see him.

01:05:16.000 Yeah.

01:05:16.000 Check it out.

01:05:17.000 And then all of a sudden, boom.

01:05:18.000 And now they get the love and the recognition.

01:05:20.000 But back then everybody was on their own.

01:05:22.000 It was a dog eat dog world, and it was controlled by gangsters.

01:05:26.000 I rest my case.

01:05:28.000 The answer was I realized one very important thing.

01:05:32.000 Throw the word degree out of your vocabulary.

01:05:38.000 The music business.

01:05:40.000 A degree, a degree in music, a degree in business, a degree in what?

01:05:45.000 No, no, no, man.

01:05:46.000 This was street degree.

01:05:49.000 Street psychology.

01:05:49.000 Right.

01:05:50.000 Yeah, what did a guy tell me?

01:05:52.000 He said, um, I I'll tell you the the best course I ever took in life.

01:05:56.000 And this is a true story.

01:05:58.000 He said, you know, you schoolboys are funny, man.

01:06:01.000 He says, you all learn how to account for the money.

01:06:05.000 He says, we count the money.

01:06:09.000 And I said, okay, so what does that mean?

01:06:10.000 He says, somebody's got to teach you how to steal.

01:06:14.000 Oh, God.

01:06:14.000 No, no, no, no.

01:06:15.000 Best lesson I ever took in my whole life.

01:06:18.000 Because once you learn how to steal the money.

01:06:21.000 You know how to stop people from stealing.

01:06:24.000 Yeah.

01:06:26.000 There's so many stories of bad deals.

01:06:29.000 I mean, I was reading an excerpt from this book, and I don't know if it's true.

01:06:33.000 It's a guy that thinks that Hendrix was killed rather than he died.

01:06:37.000 And uh he thinks that what was going on was that Hendrix was leaving his management.

01:06:42.000 Uh huh.

01:06:42.000 And his management had him locked up in some crazy contract.

01:06:45.000 They were stealing money from him, and they thought that he'd be more valuable dead since they owned the records.

01:06:54.000 And that's this is like you coming from the 70s in the professional business from the 70s on, dealing with that was the business back then.

01:07:04.000 I mean, look at Phil Spector.

01:07:04.000 Yeah.

01:07:06.000 The guy's in jail now for shooting a woman in the mouth in his house.

01:07:10.000 These were gangsters.

01:07:13.000 Uh yeah.

01:07:14.000 I mean, the answer is there is a um one moment when I looked into my mom and dad's face, and I said, uh, hey, they they just stole $363,000 from me.

01:07:35.000 And my mother said, you leave those people alone and come home.

01:07:39.000 And I go, no, no, no, no, Mom, mommy, mom.

01:07:42.000 It only cost me $362,000 to learn that lesson.

01:07:47.000 It's never gonna happen again.

01:07:48.000 And I was so excited about it.

01:07:50.000 She looked at me and said, my son's crazy.

01:07:54.000 That is a crazy response.

01:07:55.000 But but the answer is very logical.

01:07:57.000 You can lose millions.

01:07:58.000 Right.

01:07:58.000 You can lose billions.

01:08:00.000 Okay.

01:08:00.000 Sure.

01:08:01.000 So if it only took me 362,000, I got off light, man.

01:08:06.000 Yeah.

01:08:06.000 You understand me?

01:08:07.000 For sure.

01:08:07.000 But it's and not only that, uh, can you keep your can you keep your can you keep your life?

01:08:15.000 I mean, just think about it.

01:08:16.000 You know, when you go to the box office, everybody had a gun.

01:08:19.000 Now, here's the beautiful part about it, because I knew that later.

01:08:22.000 Nobody's gonna shoot anybody.

01:08:24.000 It's just if you how naive were you?

01:08:26.000 If you were naive and a little schoolboy, you could get shot and killed.

01:08:30.000 But as you started learning who the gangsters are, that was just an intimidating factor.

01:08:36.000 But you had to be once you knew them, then they go, come on, Lionel, just covers a little bit, you know.

01:08:42.000 But it's even more disconcerting, they become normal.

01:08:45.000 They become normal.

01:08:46.000 That's what gets weird.

01:08:47.000 That's what gets weird.

01:08:48.000 When you're around normalized gangsters, that's exactly right.

01:08:52.000 And then you start, and then your mother starts meeting them on their way to Miami, they would drive, and they stop by Tuskegee to see the schoolboys.

01:09:00.000 And here's a guy dead of homecoming season in a full head-to-toe mink hat, mink coat, pink El Dorado.

01:09:13.000 Driving across the campus, and you go to your instructors.

01:09:17.000 Yeah, this is my uh my friend uh, you know, uh tall Paul.

01:09:22.000 You I got all kinds names for them out of we had a oh my God, we had we had names.

01:09:28.000 You can't you can't make this up.

01:09:31.000 Yeah.

01:09:31.000 You know, and how do you it introduce them to the president of the university?

01:09:35.000 The answer is you don't.

01:09:36.000 Right.

01:09:37.000 You don't do it.

01:09:37.000 You don't.

01:09:38.000 You don't.

01:09:40.000 God.

01:09:41.000 What was it like navigating that world?

01:09:44.000 It was Joe, one of the most exciting things ever.

01:09:48.000 Why?

01:09:48.000 I never experienced anything like this before.

01:09:50.000 Right.

01:09:50.000 I mean, I I I mean, listen.

01:09:52.000 Who does?

01:09:53.000 I I listen, you mean, wait, wait, see, see, we played gangster.

01:09:59.000 They weren't playing gangster.

01:10:01.000 Right.

01:10:02.000 You follow me?

01:10:02.000 Right.

01:10:03.000 So we are with the gangsters.

01:10:06.000 Right.

01:10:07.000 And I it it just became so another world where what the guy say in our world, Lynn, it's not how long you live, it's how well you live while you're living.

01:10:22.000 Now, that's a profound statement from him.

01:10:25.000 That's I don't want to know anything to bring about that, but you have to listen, right?

01:10:30.000 Yes, they don't plan on living a long life.

01:10:34.000 But they plan on living well while they're here.

01:10:37.000 Right.

01:10:37.000 So it's nothing to say when you go back to New York for the next summer.

01:10:40.000 Whatever happened to so and so.

01:10:42.000 Oh, yeah, he got shot in December.

01:10:44.000 Oh normalized.

01:10:46.000 That's a that's normal.

01:10:47.000 He's leaving town.

01:10:47.000 Yeah.

01:10:48.000 Or they're leaving town.

01:10:49.000 Right.

01:10:50.000 And so as time went on, it became a short-term view of a very long-term problem that has always been normalized because a part of legal is illegal.

01:11:11.000 Or desirables and undesirables.

01:11:15.000 That's just a part of the city.

01:11:17.000 Right.

01:11:17.000 And here's what you find out the most important thing.

01:11:20.000 The desirables know the undesirables.

01:11:24.000 Yeah.

01:11:25.000 You go back stage and you go, wait, you two know each other?

01:11:29.000 What?

01:11:29.000 Right.

01:11:30.000 You know, but that's what happens in this world of cities in this world of culture.

01:11:35.000 You know, everybody has that.

01:11:37.000 What's that line I used to use all the time?

01:11:38.000 Who are you really?

01:11:40.000 Right.

01:11:41.000 Right.

01:11:41.000 And until it it is revealed later, in the music business, we see all.

01:11:48.000 Backstage is all.

01:11:51.000 Front row is all.

01:11:53.000 You follow me?

01:11:53.000 Right.

01:11:54.000 Right.

01:11:55.000 So you just have to understand it's a it's probably one of the greatest educations in the world, because Everybody backstage is who they are.

01:12:03.000 Not who they say they are.

01:12:03.000 Right.

01:12:04.000 Right.

01:12:05.000 Right.

01:12:06.000 That's gotta be bizarre seeing like captains of industry mingling with gangsters.

01:12:12.000 Heads of enormous.

01:12:14.000 Hi, Phil, hi Bill, hi John, hi David.

01:12:16.000 And by the way, it's okay.

01:12:18.000 But remember now, we're a street business.

01:12:21.000 Right.

01:12:22.000 We're a street business.

01:12:23.000 And is it uh street business because gangsters always controlled a certain percentage of what's going on in the streets and cities?

01:12:31.000 Or is it a street business because you don't really need an education to do it.

01:12:37.000 You do it on instinct, and everyone needs it because it's really like what you're pre what you produce is like a drug.

01:12:45.000 You know, I can listen to one of your own songs, and it's like it just puts me in a state of mind like bingo.

01:12:50.000 Man, it does something to you physically.

01:12:53.000 So they're, you know, they're in the drug business too.

01:12:56.000 They're in the they're in the cash business, they're in the live entertainment and nightclub business.

01:12:56.000 Bingo.

01:13:00.000 Let's talk Vegas.

01:13:02.000 Right.

01:13:03.000 Founded.

01:13:04.000 Was a Harvard grad, the founder of Vegas?

01:13:08.000 No.

01:13:09.000 Okay.

01:13:10.000 So what I'm saying to you, the problem that happened with all of these businesses we now have.

01:13:16.000 They legitimized it.

01:13:19.000 They messed the whole thing up.

01:13:20.000 Right.

01:13:21.000 Did the movie business start out with wonderful PhD guys from No.

01:13:25.000 No.

01:13:26.000 It started from the street.

01:13:28.000 Yeah.

01:13:29.000 You follow me?

01:13:30.000 Yeah.

01:13:30.000 And so what we are trying to do now is we've tried to legitimize all of this stuff.

01:13:34.000 Homogenize.

01:13:35.000 Homod pasteurized.

01:13:36.000 We want to do the whole thing.

01:13:37.000 The answer is no, no, man.

01:13:38.000 We messed the whole thing up.

01:13:39.000 Yeah.

01:13:40.000 Because what it was is the fascination of, hey, Lionel, can I put my name on your album?

01:13:47.000 Right.

01:13:47.000 Why?

01:13:48.000 I gotta move some stuff around.

01:13:49.000 But the answer is I couldn't do it because I don't want to get in trouble from the you know, you're kind of trying to dodge these guys.

01:13:55.000 But the point is, it's real.

01:13:58.000 So I can't what I won't I won't put a business like that together.

01:14:02.000 What I'll do is start the business.

01:14:05.000 Hey, what a great way to do that.

01:14:08.000 But the only thing wrong with that is as time goes on, someone asks a very difficult question.

01:14:13.000 I like to see the books.

01:14:16.000 That's a tough one.

01:14:18.000 Go deal with that one.

01:14:20.000 Yeah.

01:14:20.000 So you follow where we're coming from.

01:14:23.000 So I for us, for me, as as they used to call us in Harlem, the school boys, you know, for the schoolboys, this was fantasyland.

01:14:32.000 Right.

01:14:32.000 Are you kidding me?

01:14:33.000 I mean, we didn't think we're gonna die.

01:14:35.000 This was like the best course we ever took in the world from the originals.

01:14:39.000 Right, right.

01:14:40.000 This is not some hearsay.

01:14:42.000 And they adopted us as the schoolboys.

01:14:45.000 That's so wild.

01:14:48.000 That must have been just an insane experience as a young man going to be.

01:14:53.000 You have no real.

01:14:54.000 You have Joe.

01:14:56.000 You have no idea.

01:14:59.000 And then uh you know, I mean, the days of the days of small's paradise.

01:15:07.000 I mean, this is the club of clubs in Harlem.

01:15:11.000 The days of uh um Studio 54.

01:15:17.000 Michael Jackson's 21st birthday.

01:15:20.000 Give me a break.

01:15:21.000 I mean, and it was back then, what I loved about private clubs was the reason it was private is because if you can't keep a secret, if you weren't in the building, you can't find out what's happening in the building.

01:15:37.000 Now everybody's got a phone.

01:15:39.000 And everybody can't wait to take a picture or rat on somebody.

01:15:39.000 Right.

01:15:42.000 So you can't have a private club in the book because everybody's gonna tell what they saw inside.

01:15:48.000 Exactly.

01:15:49.000 But back then, once they let you in those doors, yeah.

01:15:53.000 First of all, it was a privilege that they thought that much about you to let you in.

01:15:58.000 And then once you got in, it was you were in the you were in the club, man.

01:16:04.000 Wow.

01:16:06.000 God, it must have been so exciting.

01:16:09.000 And to be surrounded by so many extraordinary people at that time.

01:16:14.000 What was it like watching Michael Jackson explode?

01:16:18.000 You know, I talk about him and I talk about Elvis a lot, and that if you look at it as a study of fame, that there's a certain level of fame that you achieve that's completely and wholly unmanageable.

01:16:31.000 Right.

01:16:32.000 And it's like the Elvis level, and I think he was like the first guy to really reach that level.

01:16:36.000 And then it was Michael Jackson who went to a completely different place.

01:16:36.000 Yeah.

01:16:39.000 Michael Jackson, he's even surpassed that.

01:16:41.000 Which seems more insane.

01:16:41.000 Yeah.

01:16:42.000 Right.

01:16:43.000 That photograph.

01:16:45.000 That's uh that says Studio 54 on Michael's 21st birthday.

01:16:50.000 Wow.

01:16:51.000 Yeah.

01:16:52.000 Wow.

01:16:53.000 And the mustache was thicker than ever, man.

01:16:57.000 They drip down the ball.

01:17:00.000 Come on, man.

01:17:03.000 You know.

01:17:04.000 Because he he never had a normal moment.

01:17:07.000 He was famous when he was a little boy.

01:17:07.000 No.

01:17:09.000 I remember when when AB what was was what show did ABC what would they broadcast?

01:17:16.000 That was uh was it Ed Sullivan?

01:17:18.000 Was that then they first when they first hit?

01:17:21.000 Yes.

01:17:22.000 It was either Ed Solomon or Dick Clark.

01:17:23.000 I think it was Ed Sullivan when they blew up, blew up.

01:17:26.000 But I remember him singing ABC's when he was just a boy.

01:17:30.000 And I was like, my God, he is so talented.

01:17:34.000 Like exploding in talent.

01:17:38.000 Exploding in charisma, like I'd never seen before.

01:17:42.000 You'd seen so many artists and so many people that were maybe maybe it was because of the youth too.

01:17:48.000 It's like he's so free.

01:17:51.000 He was so free.

01:17:52.000 Yeah.

01:17:53.000 It's so much charisma and talent.

01:17:57.000 It was just insane.

01:17:59.000 Like look at this.

01:17:59.000 Give me some of this.

01:18:00.000 I mean, I mean, come on.

01:18:02.000 You can't play any of them.

01:18:03.000 No, no, but but but but watch him jump out front if he does.

01:18:07.000 If when you see the scene where he comes out front, oh this guy didn't know the clip.

01:18:12.000 But if he ever spins around one time, and you'll see something that looks so simple to do, he got that from Jackie Wilson.

01:18:24.000 I said, Where did you get that from?

01:18:26.000 He said, Lionel, that's Jackie Wilson.

01:18:28.000 That's but if you see him spin and come back to dead center.

01:18:33.000 Now this is when he was just getting his wings to flap.

01:18:37.000 Wow.

01:18:38.000 How old is he here?

01:18:39.000 Uh he's got to be 12.

01:18:41.000 Wow.

01:18:41.000 12, 11, 12.

01:18:43.000 And uh, and of course, at this time, it was just ridiculous because he knew what he was doing.

01:18:51.000 He knew exactly what I mean.

01:18:53.000 This is the oldest soul you've ever met in your life.

01:18:57.000 Really.

01:18:58.000 Uh I I couldn't tell you.

01:18:59.000 And then they walk off stage and turn into 12-year-olds.

01:19:04.000 This kid turns up to itching powder in your afro.

01:19:08.000 Or see how you stand out front and say how he points to you.

01:19:12.000 Now I know what he's saying right now.

01:19:16.000 Right?

01:19:16.000 Wow.

01:19:20.000 OK.

01:19:27.000 God.

01:19:27.000 Yeah.

01:19:28.000 B. A. Yeah.

01:19:32.000 He was so crazy.

01:19:32.000 Crazy.

01:19:35.000 And if you see him with that, I mean, I I'll be honest with you.

01:19:40.000 I mean, we forgot sometimes that this is going to happen.

01:19:46.000 Because when you're backstage or in the hotel room, that's a kid.

01:19:50.000 Right.

01:19:51.000 That's a kid.

01:19:52.000 Um, then as time went on, things happened where you could see it getting weird.

01:19:57.000 For example, um, I'd go down the hall and I'd say, um, where's Mike?

01:20:03.000 And they said he's in the room.

01:20:05.000 Okay, and meanwhile, what became normal was watch out, be careful.

01:20:11.000 The girls are coming.

01:20:13.000 Watch out, be careful, stay in the room.

01:20:14.000 The girls are coming.

01:20:16.000 Now, if you understand the Commodores, Jermaine was a bass player.

01:20:22.000 He hooked up with the bass player of the Commodore's Ronald.

01:20:25.000 The drummer, Clyde.

01:20:27.000 Follow me?

01:20:28.000 The lead singer, me.

01:20:30.000 So Michael and I bonded at 1213 because of the lead singer.

01:20:34.000 So I went down to check him out.

01:20:36.000 And I'd say, Where's Michael?

01:20:37.000 He's in the room.

01:20:38.000 I go in the room.

01:20:39.000 Hey, Mike, where are you?

01:20:40.000 Okay.

01:20:41.000 Where is he?

01:20:42.000 He's hiding in the bathroom.

01:20:44.000 The girls are out there.

01:20:45.000 I said, girls, what do you mean?

01:20:47.000 There's no girls out there.

01:20:48.000 They sealed off the floor.

01:20:49.000 Come go with me.

01:20:50.000 Now they got mad at me because I'd walk out in the hall and go, come go with me.

01:20:55.000 I say, you see any girls out here?

01:20:57.000 Oh, I thought they would I thought they were in the hall, Lionel.

01:21:01.000 Okay, so in other words, watch out, be careful.

01:21:04.000 But they're protecting the golden goose, ladies and gentlemen.

01:21:07.000 You follow me?

01:21:08.000 But the golden goose needs play period time.

01:21:10.000 He needs playtime.

01:21:11.000 Right, he's still a kid.

01:21:12.000 He's a kid.

01:21:13.000 And so You're freaking him out.

01:21:15.000 Jermaine, Tito, these they listen, they go on dates, guys.

01:21:19.000 They hang.

01:21:20.000 They, you know, Michael can't hang downstairs.

01:21:23.000 Wow.

01:21:24.000 Right.

01:21:24.000 And so as time went on, you could see the slow shutdown of trying to protect a an incredibly talented person, but at the same time, he got special treatment.

01:21:37.000 And so what I tried to do every chance I could was hey man, come and get you in the car.

01:21:42.000 Come over here.

01:21:43.000 Let's get it together.

01:21:44.000 You know, right.

01:21:45.000 Hang, hang, hang.

01:21:46.000 Yeah.

01:21:46.000 You know, and and so, you know, we went through that period of time where uh we don't stay together long because once we the Commodores took off, we didn't have that everyday time anymore.

01:21:57.000 You follow me.

01:21:57.000 Right.

01:21:58.000 But every once in a while we get together, and and you know, there's a little rumor that's out right now that I I I want to clean up right quick.

01:22:04.000 Uh they said in Lionel's book, Lionel called my uh Michael Smelly.

01:22:12.000 Didn't like the way he smelled.

01:22:13.000 I said, No, that's not what I So let me clean this up.

01:22:16.000 Okay, okay so imagine sending your clothes out anywhere, and you get half of your clothes back.

01:22:24.000 The other half of your clothes are souvenirs.

01:22:26.000 You follow me?

01:22:27.000 So what he would do is if he had a pair of jeans, right, he'd wear the jeans until they tried to run away from it.

01:22:36.000 People are stealing his clothes.

01:22:38.000 Oh my god.

01:22:39.000 Or or he'd he'd he'd walk in the house some days, and I'm looking down at his feet and I go, Michael, your shoes are flopping on your feet.

01:22:50.000 The two sizes too large for you.

01:22:52.000 I know, Lionel.

01:22:54.000 The guy we were in someplace, he gave me a pair of shoes, and I told him, Thank you very much.

01:22:59.000 I said, But Michael, you could have gotten the shoes in the right size.

01:23:02.000 I know, but I didn't want to embarrass him.

01:23:04.000 So he's walking around with two sizes too large.

01:23:07.000 You understand me?

01:23:08.000 So he'll come by the house.

01:23:10.000 We wore the same size, right?

01:23:12.000 And certain but by the time he became that teenager.

01:23:14.000 So I said, go in the closet, uh, get a pair of jeans.

01:23:18.000 So literally, he changed clothes, and by the way, he left the clothes on the floor in the room and walked away from him.

01:23:26.000 In other words, he he'd wear them until he got another pair.

01:23:30.000 And so we call him, Quincy called him, okay, here comes Smelly.

01:23:34.000 And so his nickname was for in for the insiders was Smelly.

01:23:40.000 Follow me.

01:23:41.000 So when I said it in the book, everybody goes, Oh my God, Lionel called Michael Jackson Smelly.

01:23:47.000 And I go, No, that's not it.

01:23:48.000 That's the that's his name.

01:23:50.000 That was his name.

01:23:52.000 I revealed that.

01:23:54.000 That's hilarious.

01:23:55.000 But it's so hilarious that people were just stealing his clothes.

01:23:58.000 Oh, man, please.

01:23:59.000 I mean, poor guy.

01:24:00.000 The kid when he was 12, 13, 14, sent underwear out, it doesn't come back.

01:24:06.000 T-shirt out, no t-shirt back.

01:24:08.000 Socks out, no socks back.

01:24:10.000 So it's what he bat basically had was a new pair of underwear every time he put a pair of underwear on, it was new.

01:24:16.000 Wow.

01:24:17.000 Yeah, because it just not gonna happen.

01:24:19.000 It's coming back.

01:24:23.000 Can I tell you?

01:24:24.000 If they it if they stole it in the 70s.

01:24:28.000 That's an admission.

01:24:29.000 I stole it.

01:24:29.000 That's number one.

01:24:30.000 But by the way, very valuable.

01:24:32.000 Probably very valuable.

01:24:33.000 Probably crazy.

01:24:34.000 I you know what?

01:24:35.000 I would love to put that out there, say no prosecution needed.

01:24:39.000 Right.

01:24:39.000 It was not gonna happen.

01:24:40.000 But could you reveal yourself?

01:24:41.000 So because that's gotta be the I would have that frame right away.

01:24:45.000 It's just so bananas that that was just ubiquitous.

01:24:48.000 They would just steal his clothes.

01:24:49.000 But it just makes sense.

01:24:50.000 What I was saying about the Elvis thing applies to him plus.

01:24:55.000 Is that there's no roadmap for that.

01:24:58.000 There's no roadmap for navigating that level of fame.

01:25:02.000 You know, and even you as as an adult, as a grown man, you know, your when your peak of fame had to have been so surreal that it's it's hard to not lose who you are.

01:25:18.000 Most people lose who they are.

01:25:20.000 If you say, Oh, she went crazy, but bitch, you would go crazy too.

01:25:20.000 Right.

01:25:24.000 God damn it.

01:25:26.000 You're never gonna superstar in front of the whole world or judging everything you do.

01:25:26.000 Damn right.

01:25:31.000 And then and then that thing came along called the phone.

01:25:34.000 At least at least if they did see you, they caught you in that place.

01:25:39.000 Yeah.

01:25:40.000 But they only saw you.

01:25:42.000 But now they're looking at you everywhere.

01:25:46.000 So the press is everybody.

01:25:46.000 Right.

01:25:49.000 Just imagine that.

01:25:50.000 Okay.

01:25:50.000 So but I mean in my case, I I got used to it.

01:25:50.000 Yeah.

01:25:56.000 I'm I I gotta admit.

01:25:57.000 I mean, of course, you think something happened.

01:25:59.000 Or did I do it?

01:26:00.000 Did I did I Oh no worries?

01:26:02.000 Somebody was probably messing with it before you.

01:26:04.000 They pop out all the time.

01:26:06.000 I live with that sound.

01:26:08.000 All the time.

01:26:08.000 No, but what happens with me was we went from you could actually be, you could actually sneak.

01:26:17.000 I like that word.

01:26:18.000 Sneak.

01:26:18.000 Sneak around.

01:26:19.000 Sneak means you can look out.

01:26:20.000 Do you see anybody you know?

01:26:22.000 If you don't see anybody you know, you can sneak.

01:26:25.000 And then something happens one day.

01:26:27.000 You walk in a room, you you came in through the back door, you sit at a table in the back door, the band starts playing three times a lady.

01:26:39.000 Oh my God.

01:26:40.000 And then everybody turns around and says, Hi, Lionel.

01:26:43.000 Oh no.

01:26:45.000 Okay.

01:26:46.000 All right.

01:26:46.000 Okay.

01:26:47.000 And you thought you were just sneaking your ass off.

01:26:49.000 You ain't sneaking nothing.

01:26:50.000 You're trying to sneak around and get some dinner.

01:26:52.000 It ain't not happening.

01:26:53.000 And then the next thing that happens, which is you want to have a nice anniversary dinner.

01:27:00.000 Right?

01:27:01.000 Anniversary dinner is the best dinner ever.

01:27:04.000 Romantic place.

01:27:05.000 Mm-hmm.

01:27:06.000 And three ladies walk over to you and say, hi Lionel, how are you want to tell you we love you and you want to tell you about it?

01:27:12.000 Great.

01:27:13.000 That's great.

01:27:14.000 And then your wife says, Who are those ladies?

01:27:18.000 I I I don't know.

01:27:19.000 I've never met them before.

01:27:21.000 I know, but they seem so familiar.

01:27:24.000 What?

01:27:25.000 Uh oh.

01:27:26.000 Okay, wait, this is not good.

01:27:28.000 Because now the romantic session just turned into but now I've never experienced this before.

01:27:34.000 Remember now, this is news.

01:27:35.000 This is not I I know now not to go to the romantic place.

01:27:38.000 You go someplace where you can have it have a great time.

01:27:41.000 But the point was back then this is first time happening.

01:27:45.000 And you're trying to be like all your other friends.

01:27:45.000 Right.

01:27:47.000 You take your wife out or you take your girlfriend out and you go to dinner and you have a No no no man.

01:27:52.000 It becomes now everybody's watching you and they can't wait to come over and say, can I have an autograph?

01:27:57.000 Right.

01:27:58.000 And now they come up and say, Can we have a picture?

01:28:00.000 Right.

01:28:01.000 And so it becomes this is very weird.

01:28:04.000 This is very weird.

01:28:06.000 Yeah.

01:28:07.000 You have to plan where you go.

01:28:07.000 Yeah.

01:28:09.000 Plan where you go.

01:28:09.000 And more importantly, be fully dressed before you leave.

01:28:14.000 Don't so do something stupid, right?

01:28:16.000 But I mean it I don't I don't want I'm I love it.

01:28:20.000 I'm it's not a complaint.

01:28:22.000 It's just I'm feeling a unique aspect of your life.

01:28:25.000 I've got it.

01:28:26.000 I tell people all the time, and this is the truth.

01:28:29.000 I hope you like people.

01:28:32.000 I hope you like people.

01:28:34.000 Because if you don't, you're not gonna like fame.

01:28:37.000 Okay.

01:28:37.000 Right.

01:28:38.000 They keep thinking they're gonna be famous and rich.

01:28:41.000 No, no, no.

01:28:42.000 Do you like people?

01:28:43.000 Right.

01:28:44.000 Because they're gonna be in your face and in your business with an opinion all the time.

01:28:51.000 Yeah.

01:28:52.000 Now you want to go to recital with your kid, and it's your kid's piano recital.

01:28:58.000 I hope you like being famous.

01:29:00.000 Because while your kid is playing the recital, the parents are gonna be asking you for your autograph.

01:29:05.000 Not the kids, the parents.

01:29:07.000 Yeah.

01:29:07.000 I made the mistake and decided I'll go to SeaWorld with my kid, and I'll go by myself on the parents' bus.

01:29:15.000 You know who protected me on the whole trip?

01:29:18.000 The kids.

01:29:18.000 My kid.

01:29:19.000 Miles said, okay, we gotta protect my dad.

01:29:23.000 Cause the parents are coming.

01:29:25.000 And everybody at SeaWorld showed up, and there's Lionel Richie at SeaWorld with his kid.

01:29:31.000 So I had four little kids surround me and go, I said, guys, I'm with them.

01:29:36.000 We're with the school, but I mean it becomes holy crap, what the hell's going on?

01:29:41.000 It's annoying for them too.

01:29:43.000 Of course it is.

01:29:44.000 Yeah.

01:29:44.000 But you can't have that moment with your kids.

01:29:48.000 And and it's and it's a big, it's a big deal because at that time, ABC, MBC, CBS, and a new station just came out called CNN.

01:30:00.000 Other than that, to see you to have a sighting was like different.

01:30:06.000 Come on, man.

01:30:07.000 Yeah.

01:30:08.000 No one knows.

01:30:09.000 I couldn't imagine what it was like being famous when there's only four channels and the radio.

01:30:15.000 The Olympics.

01:30:16.000 2.5, 2.6 billion people watching live, live.

01:30:27.000 Wow.

01:30:28.000 So I went from Lionel Richie to Lionel Richie all night long.

01:30:34.000 The end of my name became all night long.

01:30:36.000 Lionel Richie All Night Long.

01:30:38.000 Hey, Let's Lionel Richie all night long.

01:30:40.000 Every country in the world, I became Lionel Richie All Night Law.

01:30:45.000 Wow.

01:30:46.000 What was that like performing in front of that many humans?

01:30:51.000 What was that feeling like?

01:30:53.000 Was it different than a regular performance?

01:30:56.000 Joe, it it felt like a regular performance, but I had never in my life had the world watching.

01:31:07.000 So I rehearsed it.

01:31:09.000 We did it, not realizing it was the world, literally the world watching.

01:31:17.000 And if go back and look at that little podium.

01:31:21.000 What was supposed to happen at the beginning of this was Ronald Reagan was supposed to come out and greet had his speech.

01:31:30.000 I know I speak on behalf of everyone in America and the entire world, how proud we are of these fine athletes.

01:31:37.000 That was his speech, right?

01:31:39.000 Because that night there were death threats, they had, you know, they decided it's too risky to have him on the field.

01:31:47.000 Lionel, would you give the speech on behalf of all of America and the entire world?

01:31:55.000 Stop me where I am.

01:31:57.000 Oh my God.

01:31:59.000 So before I started singing, I had to make my speech.

01:32:04.000 I know how proud we are here in America and around the world of these fine athletes.

01:32:13.000 Yes.

01:32:15.000 And now we're gonna sing all night long.

01:32:18.000 But I had to give this thing.

01:32:19.000 Wow.

01:32:19.000 And I told him, I said, that was the that was the proud moment after I came off stage.

01:32:24.000 Before I went on stage was well, if uh Mr. Reagan's worried about his life.

01:32:30.000 Well, what about mine?

01:32:31.000 What's gonna happen here?

01:32:33.000 You know, but it was so overwhelmingly that you're talking about energy and adrenaline and you can't beat 2.6 billion people live.

01:32:48.000 And it you think Super Bowl was something special?

01:32:51.000 I'll tell you what this was.

01:32:53.000 Nobody, there was not a another channel covering anything.

01:32:58.000 The whole world was watching this.

01:33:00.000 That's hard for people to imagine in this day of content.

01:33:03.000 Exactly right.

01:33:04.000 That that will never happen again unless it's the aliens are landing Monday at 8 a.m.

01:33:09.000 Exactly correct.

01:33:11.000 That's the one where the aliens landed.

01:33:12.000 Oh, that fake.

01:33:14.000 Right, and by the way, that's what happened.

01:33:16.000 That was the opening.

01:33:17.000 But what you don't see there, that's that was the open that's very good, man.

01:33:22.000 I hadn't seen this clip.

01:33:23.000 Uh what was happening with that was just before it started, they sealed off the air space.

01:33:32.000 And I I remember looking out, there were four helicopters facing out.

01:33:39.000 And the problem was you couldn't hear them, Joe.

01:33:43.000 And I kept thinking, I'm looking at helicopters, and they said, I said, what's that right there?

01:33:48.000 And they said, they sealed off the air space.

01:33:51.000 Whoa.

01:33:52.000 Nothing's coming in to this place.

01:33:55.000 One, two, three, four.

01:33:57.000 You couldn't hear the helicopters that were holding up the flying saucer.

01:34:00.000 I couldn't hear a thing.

01:34:03.000 How's that possible?

01:34:04.000 I don't know.

01:34:05.000 That's what's scary.

01:34:06.000 That's what I'm saying.

01:34:10.000 You understand what I'm saying?

01:34:11.000 And the answer to me was okay.

01:34:15.000 See, I mean alien guy.

01:34:17.000 You understand me at this point?

01:34:19.000 This is 1984.

01:34:20.000 Yeah.

01:34:20.000 And Howard K. Smith, remember the sports announcer, I think was it was it Howard K. Smith?

01:34:26.000 Howard Cousell.

01:34:27.000 No, Howard K. He was with Howard K. Smith.

01:34:29.000 No, he was with uh wide world of sports.

01:34:32.000 Okay.

01:34:33.000 And he kept saying, This is going to be an amazing night for you.

01:34:38.000 And I said, Yeah, okay, not knowing what this was going to be.

01:34:42.000 And there was a kid that was backstage, and he said, Oh my God, this is going to be the biggest night ever.

01:34:49.000 You know what that kid was?

01:34:50.000 Cuba Gooding Jr.

01:34:52.000 Wow.

01:34:53.000 He was one of the dancers.

01:34:55.000 Wow.

01:34:56.000 And from that moment on I kept thinking, what's gonna happen?

01:35:01.000 I said, uh, here's what I want you to do.

01:35:04.000 They're not looking at me.

01:35:06.000 Your parents are looking for you.

01:35:08.000 So get a signal, give them something where you wave your hand so they'll know that that's you.

01:35:14.000 But the truth of that was that was one of those interesting moments in time where the world was watching and it was no other way to happen.

01:35:22.000 It was I woke up the next morning, drove down the street, I could be five cars back from the traffic light.

01:35:31.000 And somebody passed me go, hey Lionel Richie, all night long.

01:35:35.000 Lionel Renzy, all night, it's Lionel Richie all night long.

01:35:38.000 Oh, God, what just happened?

01:35:39.000 Did you get your windows tinted?

01:35:41.000 I got everything tinted.

01:35:43.000 I was wearing tents.

01:35:44.000 What you talk about?

01:35:47.000 That might be the biggest audience anyone has ever performed for ever.

01:35:51.000 If you think about it.

01:35:52.000 Without dying, of course.

01:35:53.000 I mean, yeah.

01:35:54.000 I mean, it's I don't know what that was, but it freaked me out.

01:36:01.000 Because I went from slightly invisible to fully visible.

01:36:11.000 Anywhere.

01:36:12.000 My friend got married.

01:36:15.000 I kept saying to him, You don't want me at your wedding.

01:36:17.000 He said, No, no, no, you have to come to the wedding.

01:36:20.000 I said, You don't want me at your wedding.

01:36:22.000 Here's what happened.

01:36:23.000 I decided to go.

01:36:25.000 Here's there he is walking down the aisle.

01:36:28.000 There he is saying I do, and there he is walking out with his lovely bride.

01:36:32.000 Every other picture after that is his mother-in-law with me, his family with me.

01:36:38.000 He's no longer in the wedding.

01:36:40.000 Right.

01:36:41.000 Every picture was me in his wedding book.

01:36:44.000 And I said, You don't want me at your funeral.

01:36:48.000 Nobody's gonna ever know you left.

01:36:53.000 It's not gonna happen.

01:36:54.000 What was that like for you?

01:36:55.000 Like psychologically, that giant shift.

01:36:58.000 Was that hard to manage?

01:36:59.000 Pain in the ass.

01:37:00.000 For the first couple of ten years.

01:37:00.000 Yeah.

01:37:05.000 You know, she gotta get used to this.

01:37:07.000 I mean, you know, and also you have to understand it becomes an annoyance to your friends.

01:37:12.000 Hey, Lionel, let's go down to the bar and get a drink.

01:37:14.000 Very simple.

01:37:15.000 That's like you've been doing that for their whole life.

01:37:17.000 Right.

01:37:18.000 No.

01:37:18.000 You go down to the bar, the bar turns around.

01:37:21.000 Yeah.

01:37:22.000 No.

01:37:22.000 So now your friends become security officers.

01:37:24.000 Right.

01:37:25.000 You follow me?

01:37:26.000 This is not cool.

01:37:26.000 Oh, okay.

01:37:27.000 Right.

01:37:28.000 You know, and so it becomes a little bit of a hassle.

01:37:33.000 So if you want to have your friends, you either have to bring them up to your hotel thing or you bring them over to the house.

01:37:39.000 Right.

01:37:40.000 There's no hanging out.

01:37:42.000 Right.

01:37:42.000 You know, it's not going to happen that way.

01:37:44.000 And it just again, it's you get used to it over time.

01:37:48.000 Uh fuck with you psychologically.

01:37:50.000 Hell yeah.

01:37:51.000 Are you kidding me, man?

01:37:52.000 I mean, because um a person relies on the perspective that they get from interacting with people of the majority of your interactions are bizarre.

01:38:00.000 And then finally, one day you say, okay, you walk into the room, prepare to talk to the room.

01:38:09.000 Right.

01:38:10.000 Just accept that this is what it is.

01:38:12.000 Muhammad Ali said it correctly.

01:38:14.000 We had lunch one afternoon in New York, and um it's time for it to be over.

01:38:21.000 And as we were having lunch, there are people coming up to the glass looking in, oh, that's Muhammad, there's Muhammad, there's Lionel, there's Muhammad, there's Lionel Mohammed.

01:38:30.000 Okay, it's time for us to go.

01:38:32.000 And my security had me, and I'm ready to go.

01:38:34.000 I said, Where's your security?

01:38:36.000 Uh uh.

01:38:39.000 I don't need any security.

01:38:41.000 I said, What do you mean you don't need security?

01:38:42.000 I said, There's tons of people out there.

01:38:44.000 He said, No, no, no, no, no.

01:38:45.000 They'll take care of me.

01:38:47.000 And he walks out the door, and everybody was going, get back, get back, get back.

01:38:51.000 It's Muhammad.

01:38:52.000 In other words, you you neutralize the room.

01:38:57.000 You can either make it a frenzy, Yeah.

01:39:00.000 Or you can that's what Michael uh God bless him, he couldn't get that in his head.

01:39:04.000 But he couldn't.

01:39:05.000 Even if he tried to do that, his whole persona was the frenzy.

01:39:10.000 Yes.

01:39:10.000 He has to have the frenzy, otherwise that's not Michael.

01:39:13.000 Right.

01:39:14.000 You know, so I I just kinda got to the point where you go into that Zen mode and how do I get across the airport?

01:39:20.000 It's only one way.

01:39:21.000 You gotta walk across the airport.

01:39:23.000 The difference in you and Michael though is like you had a normal life for a long time.

01:39:27.000 And then became an artist and then.

01:39:29.000 I knew how to navigate it.

01:39:31.000 You got a slow drip in the initial days.

01:39:33.000 He had the explosion.

01:39:35.000 The explosion that he got was like, like I said, unlike anything anybody had ever seen before.

01:39:39.000 I don't I can't imagine how he could defuse a crowd.

01:39:42.000 Like it's not even possible.

01:39:44.000 Never was going to happen.

01:39:45.000 No.

01:39:46.000 The thing about Muhammad Ali, too, who's like one of the rare people that was loved by almost all humans.

01:39:46.000 Never.

01:39:54.000 Absolutely.

01:39:55.000 Especially after everyone realized he was right about the Vietnam War.

01:39:58.000 Of course.

01:39:59.000 And then he returns three years later, and then, you know, he makes his way to the title again and then the he was so loved.

01:40:08.000 He was so loved.

01:40:10.000 And a beautiful person.

01:40:12.000 I mean, what I and again, trauma.

01:40:17.000 I mean, when you see him out in public, he was Mr. Showbiz.

01:40:23.000 But he was carrying a lot.

01:40:25.000 He was carrying his belief.

01:40:27.000 He was carrying his growth, losing the family, gaining another family, still being the icon.

01:40:35.000 I mean, think about that.

01:40:36.000 You know, is he gonna win?

01:40:37.000 Is he gonna lose?

01:40:38.000 With me, I just gotta sing all night long again.

01:40:41.000 Right.

01:40:41.000 But him, he's gotta win again.

01:40:43.000 And he knows he's starting to get brain damage.

01:40:46.000 There we go.

01:40:47.000 Yeah.

01:40:48.000 There's no if, answer button.

01:40:50.000 By the time he gets past Frazier and the first fight and then Foreman, just the Foreman fight alone, Ernie Shavers.

01:40:57.000 Every every hit.

01:40:58.000 Every hit.

01:40:59.000 And then later in his career it gets sad.

01:41:01.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:41:02.000 It's just like there's very few people that transcend whatever sport they are and become like one of the key features of culture.

01:41:10.000 Yeah.

01:41:10.000 He was magical.

01:41:12.000 Magical.

01:41:13.000 But for me, he was the hero.

01:41:16.000 Yeah.

01:41:17.000 Because this is a guy who found his freedom.

01:41:23.000 When you can walk out and go, I'm gonna speak my truth and I don't care.

01:41:28.000 Now this is back in the days when Hoover was Hoover and the you know, the investigations were the investigation, that's heavy, man.

01:41:35.000 I mean, this is not this is life and death situations.

01:41:38.000 And for him to accept his role as the educator and also the the beacon of hope.

01:41:47.000 You know, when I got that in in my book, when that when that man came up to me and said, You must survive because you're our beacon of hope.

01:41:57.000 Wow.

01:41:58.000 I I there's a moment in time when you realize there is a responsibility here.

01:42:04.000 And whether you wanted to be the teacher or not, there are folks looking at you besides the folks in Tuskegee.

01:42:10.000 Yeah, and you've got something to share.

01:42:12.000 And that something is very valuable.

01:42:15.000 When someone can hear wise words from someone they love and respect, it it it'll ch shift your perspective in life.

01:42:22.000 And that that's such a gift that you could give people.

01:42:25.000 But it doesn't come, I I keep trying to tell Billy Tay, it doesn't come with the word flawless.

01:42:31.000 Of course.

01:42:32.000 It comes with flaws.

01:42:33.000 How did you how did you learn that?

01:42:37.000 You put your foot in the shit.

01:42:41.000 I mean, you understand?

01:42:42.000 How do you know that?

01:42:43.000 Yeah.

01:42:44.000 And and the only way to know it, the only way to understand it, you know, what you don't want to do is have someone describe to you life because they read it.

01:42:54.000 I want to know about life that you lived it.

01:42:54.000 Right.

01:42:56.000 Now that's the person I'm taking my advice from.

01:42:56.000 Right.

01:42:58.000 Oh, a hundred percent.

01:42:59.000 Yeah.

01:43:00.000 Yeah.

01:43:00.000 Like someone teaching you music that's never written a song.

01:43:03.000 That's crazy.

01:43:04.000 Unless they're Rick Rubin.

01:43:04.000 Exactly.

01:43:05.000 Unless they're Rick Ruben.

01:43:07.000 And by the way, by the way, by the way.

01:43:09.000 You said that's a strange brother boy.

01:43:12.000 I mean, I got chills when you called his name.

01:43:14.000 No, man, and can hear.

01:43:16.000 He's the real dad.

01:43:19.000 So love him.

01:43:20.000 He's the real that's a real thing.

01:43:23.000 That's a real trip.

01:43:23.000 That's a real It's a real experience.

01:43:25.000 I went to Rick's house one day and I said, Oh man, this is gonna be great.

01:43:28.000 It's out by the beach.

01:43:29.000 He walked in And I said, he said, sit right over there.

01:43:33.000 Rick, it's only one uh beanbag chair on the floor.

01:43:40.000 That's it.

01:43:41.000 That's the whole living room.

01:43:45.000 Where's the living room?

01:43:48.000 Or there's the terrace off of his bedroom.

01:43:51.000 Great.

01:43:52.000 He has the doors.

01:43:53.000 The doors open off onto his terrace.

01:43:56.000 Yeah.

01:43:57.000 They forgot to put the terrace out there.

01:43:59.000 So it opens windows.

01:44:02.000 I said there's no terrace.

01:44:05.000 I think that's what he wants.

01:44:07.000 That's exactly what he wants.

01:44:08.000 He wants things off.

01:44:10.000 Ah, but I love him.

01:44:10.000 You're a such a genius.

01:44:12.000 I love him.

01:44:13.000 I love him to death.

01:44:14.000 Oh God.

01:44:15.000 He sends me the wackiest X, too.

01:44:18.000 Well, he ain't gonna change.

01:44:19.000 He goes down rabbit holes.

01:44:21.000 Woo.

01:44:22.000 But he's awesome.

01:44:23.000 But there's people like him, right?

01:44:25.000 That just have some special gift of they just hear things.

01:44:30.000 But that's the point.

01:44:31.000 That's that's the point.

01:44:31.000 Yeah.

01:44:33.000 In in life, in life, if you have a chance to be around someone that's authentic unto themselves, at the same time, they're receiving.

01:44:42.000 It's not just songwriting.

01:44:44.000 Right.

01:44:44.000 You know, there are people who are receiving messages, and you go, do me a favor, just sit down and tell me the story.

01:44:52.000 Well, authors all talk about that.

01:44:53.000 I I love.

01:44:54.000 I love.

01:44:55.000 I mean, for example, every time I go to Atlanta, Georgia, who's backstage?

01:45:00.000 Greatest fan, greatest mentor ever.

01:45:02.000 Andy Young.

01:45:03.000 Oh.

01:45:04.000 Okay.

01:45:04.000 Did he see it?

01:45:06.000 He saw it all.

01:45:07.000 Did he miss anything?

01:45:08.000 Nothing.

01:45:09.000 And he sits back there.

01:45:11.000 I've sometimes been 15, 20 minutes late to go on stage.

01:45:15.000 Why?

01:45:15.000 Keep talking.

01:45:17.000 Keep talking, Andy.

01:45:19.000 You follow me?

01:45:20.000 Yeah.

01:45:20.000 He's just spewing the message.

01:45:25.000 And again, the answer becomes, hmm.

01:45:29.000 How do you feel about where we are now?

01:45:31.000 I'm optimistic.

01:45:33.000 Wow.

01:45:34.000 That's really heavy.

01:45:35.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:45:37.000 And and so I I just sit as a student, and that's what happens in life.

01:45:42.000 If you have a chance, who comes backstage to my shows?

01:45:46.000 Everybody.

01:45:48.000 And they sit there and I have a chance to find out.

01:45:50.000 Hmm.

01:45:51.000 Now they say you're this person.

01:45:54.000 And the answer is, no, they're not.

01:45:57.000 Everybody has a front and a back.

01:46:00.000 Especially a public narrative.

01:46:02.000 You understand.

01:46:03.000 If you don't know them personally.

01:46:04.000 You don't know them personally.

01:46:05.000 And so with me, I have found the greatest parts in the world of this whole story is that they come as fans, everybody.

01:46:13.000 And that's the part that really makes me feel really great about traveling around the world.

01:46:19.000 Because it it it gives I remember now, I know the world of the world.

01:46:26.000 A lot of people know Detroit, or they know America, but they don't know Europe, or they don't know Asia, or they Joe, I'm 200 years old.

01:46:40.000 I scratched on everything.

01:46:42.000 But the point is, it's when I come home to write a song, I don't write a song based on is it going to be a song that can identify to America only.

01:46:53.000 I write a song that the world will understand.

01:46:56.000 Because you've been to the world.

01:46:57.000 I've been to the world.

01:46:58.000 So when I came home to write all night long, everybody looked at me like, you out of your freaking mind.

01:46:58.000 Yeah.

01:47:03.000 It's freaking calypso.

01:47:05.000 Ain't no calypso music on the radio.

01:47:07.000 I said, there's a thing called world beat.

01:47:10.000 That's why every gangster, every politician, every school teacher, everybody, when you go on vacation, what do you hear?

01:47:22.000 It's called the world beat.

01:47:24.000 Mmm.

01:47:25.000 So when I play the world beat on anything, you automatically feel familiar.

01:47:32.000 Right.

01:47:32.000 But now try to play that in the middle of funk.

01:47:36.000 Try to play that.

01:47:37.000 Yo.

01:47:39.000 What is Lyle doing?

01:47:40.000 You know, but the point is, you know, it's I when you travel the world and you come back home and you put a song out, it's gonna resonate to the world, and as time goes on, it will resonate to America.

01:47:54.000 But I I do from the world back in certain cases.

01:47:57.000 Oh yeah.

01:47:59.000 Just based on your life experiences.

01:48:01.000 Yeah.

01:48:02.000 Yeah.

01:48:02.000 No, that's amazing.

01:48:03.000 But it's like a lot of great artists have done that.

01:48:06.000 Of course.

01:48:06.000 Broke out, and where people are like, what are you doing?

01:48:09.000 Exactly.

01:48:10.000 Why are you doing something that's different than something that's been insanely successful?

01:48:13.000 Exactly.

01:48:14.000 Why would you mess with the formula?

01:48:15.000 Lionel Richard's story.

01:48:17.000 Lionel Richard crossed over and can't get black.

01:48:20.000 Oh You got me?

01:48:22.000 Okay.

01:48:23.000 So in other words, what wait a minute.

01:48:24.000 Wait a minute, wait a minute.

01:48:25.000 Three times a lady, yo.

01:48:27.000 Right.

01:48:28.000 That's a waltz uh little brother.

01:48:31.000 Right.

01:48:31.000 That's like what what what what you what you doing, man?

01:48:33.000 You copping out?

01:48:35.000 And the answer is no, no, no.

01:48:37.000 I'm a coping out, you know.

01:48:38.000 But my answer was very clear.

01:48:40.000 If Mozart were black, would it be Mozart?

01:48:44.000 Because he wouldn't be funky enough.

01:48:44.000 No.

01:48:49.000 And you wouldn't have played him.

01:48:51.000 Also, why would anybody challenge authenticity?

01:48:55.000 If someone has an authentic idea, it's it's who they are at this moment.

01:49:00.000 This idea that you're supposed to stay in this box.

01:49:02.000 Well, that's called now?

01:49:04.000 What?

01:49:04.000 An algorithm.

01:49:06.000 Okay, yeah.

01:49:07.000 Yeah.

01:49:07.000 You follow me?

01:49:08.000 So it's basically the same thing.

01:49:09.000 Everyone keeps thinking, oh man, it's gonna take over.

01:49:12.000 No, it won't.

01:49:13.000 And hopefully, if you're smart enough and get out of the way of the of this regurgitating over and over again the same goddamn song.

01:49:22.000 Right.

01:49:23.000 And go over here.

01:49:24.000 It's gotta be somebody that goes, I want to say this.

01:49:27.000 Right.

01:49:28.000 And and and no AI can tell you that.

01:49:30.000 Right.

01:49:31.000 That's gonna what's that word?

01:49:32.000 Touch people.

01:49:34.000 Yeah.

01:49:35.000 You gotta have something that touches someone.

01:49:38.000 Yes.

01:49:38.000 It can rhyme all day long.

01:49:40.000 Right.

01:49:41.000 But does it touch you?

01:49:43.000 Right.

01:49:43.000 That's coming from something else that's gonna be the new thing.

01:49:48.000 And we've gotta allow the a place where the new thing can come through.

01:49:52.000 Because otherwise it will become it'll get to be a hum.

01:49:52.000 Yes.

01:49:55.000 Right.

01:49:56.000 And that's when you hear, we only play 98 beats a minute.

01:49:59.000 Well, you know what happens on the fifth song?

01:50:01.000 You turn the channel.

01:50:04.000 First song.

01:50:06.000 Second song.

01:50:09.000 Third song.

01:50:12.000 Fourth song.

01:50:13.000 Turn the channel.

01:50:15.000 It's formula.

01:50:16.000 Because you want to hear something that goes.

01:50:23.000 That's the trick.

01:50:24.000 Yeah.

01:50:24.000 Change up the ear.

01:50:26.000 Yeah.

01:50:27.000 But someone said, let's just keep it all the same.

01:50:29.000 So now I have to ask the question.

01:50:31.000 This is the business people, right?

01:50:33.000 Yes.

01:50:33.000 These are the people who don't write songs.

01:50:35.000 Right, of course.

01:50:36.000 I mean, that's like going to a concert.

01:50:38.000 And the first song is, and the second song is, and the third song, you go, uh, where are we going to eat?

01:50:43.000 Right.

01:50:44.000 It's something's gotta switch up.

01:50:44.000 Okay.

01:50:46.000 The lights have to change.

01:50:47.000 Something has to happen.

01:50:48.000 Right.

01:50:48.000 Otherwise it becomes monotonous.

01:50:51.000 Thank you.

01:50:52.000 Yeah.

01:50:53.000 Yeah.

01:50:54.000 That struggle between the creatives and the money people always exists.

01:50:59.000 I'm telling you, it used to be wonderful because the creative people were the guys who owned the labels.

01:51:06.000 When did it switch?

01:51:06.000 Right.

01:51:07.000 Uh when they started consolidating all the things.

01:51:09.000 In other words, they started buying up Motown.

01:51:12.000 And then they bought up AM, and then they bought up Mercury, and then they bought up Polygram.

01:51:17.000 Now you've got this big giant.

01:51:18.000 Okay, so it's Warner Brothers, Sony, Universal.

01:51:23.000 We got them all.

01:51:24.000 And then the independence and then the da-da-da.

01:51:27.000 And then it became one big.

01:51:30.000 Just a machine.

01:51:31.000 One big indigestion.

01:51:32.000 Yeah.

01:51:33.000 Yeah.

01:51:33.000 A bunch of people who just want to make money and they don't make music.

01:51:36.000 And and then the what if the guy says, I know how to sell uh uh uh um I know how to sell uh uh records lion I I sold eighteen billion hamburgers before I came here.

01:51:49.000 What the frick are you talking about?

01:51:52.000 I'm a businessman.

01:51:53.000 I'm a businessman Lionel.

01:51:54.000 You think it's complicated?

01:51:56.000 Now can you give me your album in the third quarter?

01:51:58.000 Oh god.

01:51:59.000 And I'm going, I I normally give my album when I finish it.

01:52:03.000 Now, what are you talking about?

01:52:04.000 Oh third quarter means what?

01:52:06.000 Oh no.

01:52:07.000 Can we have it in the first quarter?

01:52:09.000 If we can have it in the first quarter, it'll be fine.

01:52:11.000 Did you say was this a slow thing, or did it just become overwhelming at a certain point in time?

01:52:16.000 Like, when did they get consolidated?

01:52:18.000 The most irritating part of it was you start an album, and by the time you finish the album, they sold the company.

01:52:26.000 Oh god.

01:52:27.000 And the people who started the album with you are no Longer there.

01:52:31.000 So that's a new group of people that's receiving the album that has no idea that you've been working on the album in the first place.

01:52:37.000 And then what label that they put that on.

01:52:38.000 Okay, they put Motown over on Mercury.

01:52:42.000 And then they put Motown Mercury over on Polidor.

01:52:46.000 Then they put now you're sitting there going, okay, guys, who do I belong to?

01:52:52.000 Who do I belong to?

01:52:53.000 Oh no.

01:52:54.000 Oh no, no, no.

01:52:55.000 It went it went i i it went so sideways that you know and then as we slowly get further, further down the road of lack of uh of communication, uh half the time you go to another company, they didn't know what the hell have you done.

01:53:15.000 You know, they go, okay, now you know I've got a hip hop group that love I got a writer that can write with you, Lionel.

01:53:22.000 Who who are you who you talking to?

01:53:24.000 I mean, you know what I'm saying?

01:53:26.000 I mean, we got a writer that can write with you.

01:53:28.000 I don't need a writer to write with me.

01:53:29.000 What are you talking about?

01:53:30.000 I I don't I got my own stuff what it That's like having somebody say, I I got a guy that can help Stevie.

01:53:37.000 It's just imagining a stage of your career, someone coming along and telling you how to do it.

01:53:42.000 Yeah.

01:53:43.000 Because they are AR people from the last label.

01:53:43.000 Yeah.

01:53:47.000 And so you get up there and you go, Oh and by the way, whatever person they tell you they want you to write with, that's the single.

01:53:54.000 Oh god.

01:53:55.000 So you go, okay, just hold on for a minute.

01:53:58.000 Everybody take a step back.

01:53:59.000 The worst thing, the worst thing I ever heard in life one time was that the guy said, I've got a surprise for Stevie.

01:54:06.000 Um, he turned in his album and I got I've forgotten the artist's name, I can't think of it.

01:54:11.000 I got them to remix his album.

01:54:13.000 Oh, Jesus Christ.

01:54:15.000 Joe, you never heard from Stevie again for 10 years.

01:54:19.000 Wow.

01:54:19.000 I mean, come on.

01:54:20.000 I first if you know Stevie, every ch change he knows where that is.

01:54:28.000 Yeah.

01:54:29.000 And you remixed it before he you put out the original.

01:54:33.000 Ugh.

01:54:34.000 Oh.

01:54:35.000 And just imagine the gall.

01:54:38.000 To think you could do it better.

01:54:40.000 But then Stevie Wonder.

01:54:42.000 But that's what I'm saying.

01:54:43.000 When you when you bring in non-creative people who are doing cocaine.

01:54:48.000 I I I didn't want to say that, but the answer is a lot of it, a lot of blow.

01:54:52.000 They're doing cocaine, so they have some really unnecessary confidence.

01:54:56.000 And again, you have to understand something.

01:54:56.000 Right.

01:54:58.000 They know.

01:55:00.000 They know because why do they know?

01:55:03.000 Because they said so.

01:55:05.000 And what I've learned is there are two types of artist, creative artist and created artist.

01:55:14.000 Okay.

01:55:15.000 And these people are specialized in creating artists.

01:55:19.000 But if you happen to be talking to a creative artist, shut the fuck up.

01:55:25.000 Yeah, shut the fuck up.

01:55:26.000 Shut the fuck up.

01:55:27.000 Shut the fuck up.

01:55:28.000 Yeah.

01:55:29.000 Could you imagine a group of those people and Prince brings them head and says this is my song?

01:55:34.000 They'd be like, are you out of your fucking mind?

01:55:36.000 And by the way, they did.

01:55:39.000 They did.

01:55:40.000 And you know what he said?

01:55:41.000 Fuck you.

01:55:43.000 But you know what I'm saying?

01:55:44.000 Like that's one of those songs where you're just like, it's so great and so authentic and so insane, and nobody heard anything like that before.

01:55:51.000 That's that's what I'm saying.

01:55:52.000 You a Madonna, Madonna for the Pepsi commercial.

01:55:52.000 Yeah.

01:55:57.000 You know what he gave what she gave him for the Pepsi commercial?

01:56:00.000 Like a prayer.

01:56:01.000 Right.

01:56:01.000 You right?

01:56:03.000 Black man on the cross with Madonna.

01:56:06.000 That's the commercial she gave him.

01:56:08.000 Right.

01:56:09.000 And I they said, This is disastrous.

01:56:11.000 I said, it's Madonna.

01:56:13.000 What were you thinking you were gonna get?

01:56:15.000 What'd you think?

01:56:15.000 What did you think you were gonna get?

01:56:17.000 Just give it a real name.

01:56:20.000 But I mean, you see what I'm saying?

01:56:22.000 But yet, was the record successful?

01:56:24.000 Hell yeah.

01:56:25.000 That's what I'm saying.

01:56:25.000 Huge.

01:56:26.000 Massive.

01:56:27.000 Get out of the way.

01:56:28.000 Yeah, get out of the way.

01:56:29.000 Bob Dylan.

01:56:30.000 Get out of the way.

01:56:32.000 But people can't figure that out if they're not creative people.

01:56:32.000 Yeah.

01:56:35.000 They really genuinely think that they know better.

01:56:37.000 But they want control.

01:56:38.000 Yes.

01:56:39.000 And the answer to it is, I would rather have a company full of out of control artists than a bunch of controlled pencil pushers and accountants that know nothing about people and what they like or what could titillate their sensibilities.

01:56:57.000 Yes.

01:56:58.000 Okay.

01:56:58.000 It's gotta be somebody that knows how to Well, are they gonna be in clubs all night?

01:57:02.000 No.

01:57:03.000 But we are.

01:57:04.000 Are they gonna travel around the world to festivals and everything?

01:57:07.000 No, they're not gonna be there.

01:57:09.000 But we are.

01:57:10.000 Right.

01:57:10.000 So wouldn't you trust us when we come back home and say, okay, I got the shit.

01:57:15.000 It's just they think they know better and they have the money and they have the power and they want to keep control.

01:57:21.000 And one of the things that they really do enjoy controlling is controlling people that could do things that they can't do.

01:57:26.000 Ah, very true.

01:57:27.000 Yeah.

01:57:28.000 And by the way, they know.

01:57:28.000 And that's the end.

01:57:30.000 Yeah.

01:57:30.000 And they'll come up to you and what they call is giving you advice, you know what it's called to me?

01:57:36.000 Insulting.

01:57:37.000 Right.

01:57:38.000 Yeah.

01:57:39.000 It's insulting.

01:57:40.000 They're giving you advice is just so it's just so crazy.

01:57:43.000 Someone who doesn't do it, giving you advice on how to do it.

01:57:46.000 You want to hear that sounds?

01:57:47.000 Lionel, if I were you.

01:57:49.000 And you know what I say back, quieter to myself?

01:57:49.000 Oh.

01:57:52.000 But you're not.

01:57:54.000 If I were you, if you were if you were me, you would be listening to you going, What is this fucking idiot saying?

01:58:00.000 If I came back to you, Mr. You know, and I'd say, hey, if I were you, I would do this with the company.

01:58:06.000 And you look at me and go, kids, you don't know what you're talking about.

01:58:09.000 And that's the right answer.

01:58:11.000 Right.

01:58:12.000 But if you're talking to an artist, by the way, we could run the company if you let us.

01:58:20.000 Yeah.

01:58:20.000 But the point is, it's too late.

01:58:22.000 Everybody knows everything now.

01:58:24.000 And so that's the point.

01:58:26.000 It's called the it's called the PETA principle.

01:58:28.000 Everyone elevates their themselves to their level of incompetence.

01:58:32.000 And now that you are who you are, you've now null and bored yourself and the industry, whatever it is we're into, you've done it.

01:58:39.000 It's done.

01:58:40.000 Cooked.

01:58:40.000 So my point now is we've got a world now of specialists that knows nothing about the actual doing it.

01:58:49.000 Right.

01:58:50.000 It's a world.

01:58:51.000 That is crazy that and they have so much power and control over artists.

01:58:56.000 And they have been successful in creating an artist before.

01:58:59.000 But not even but not even artists.

01:59:01.000 Everybody.

01:59:02.000 I mean, in other words, they have people who have never been uh in a successful marriage longer than twelve weeks giving you advice on marriage.

01:59:12.000 It's true.

01:59:13.000 I think about this.

01:59:14.000 Yeah.

01:59:14.000 You know, if I were you, I'd do this.

01:59:17.000 My answer is if you ever want to find out about anything, don't ask anybody young.

01:59:23.000 Ask old people.

01:59:25.000 They've been through the blitz of World War II.

01:59:28.000 They've been through the s the depression.

01:59:30.000 They've been through the crisis.

01:59:32.000 Don't ask anybody young.

01:59:34.000 Why?

01:59:34.000 Because if it comes on the phone, you don't know anything.

01:59:39.000 If you want some real good advice, when I got to Motown, who did I ask first?

01:59:45.000 Marvin.

01:59:46.000 Right.

01:59:47.000 You think he knows?

01:59:48.000 He knows.

01:59:49.000 Crazy as he can be, but it doesn't matter.

01:59:51.000 Right.

01:59:52.000 He was the creative killer.

01:59:54.000 Who do I ask about record business?

01:59:56.000 Barry.

01:59:57.000 I'm at Erdogan.

01:59:59.000 Come on, guys.

01:59:59.000 Yeah.

02:00:00.000 These guys were the most incredible people on the planet.

02:00:05.000 And so what I'm saying to you is, right now we're taking advice from people who just graduated from nothing.

02:00:11.000 Right.

02:00:12.000 What are you coming from?

02:00:13.000 So th that's where I I only I just find it very interesting that before I ask the question of anything, I go, how did you do it first?

02:00:25.000 And you said, Well, this is my first time doing it.

02:00:29.000 Thank you.

02:00:30.000 I'll I'll talk to you later.

02:00:33.000 It's just bizarre that the the industry needs people like that.

02:00:38.000 It's just a bad setup.

02:00:40.000 It's a bad set it's like it doesn't maximize creative output.

02:00:44.000 It gets in the way.

02:00:46.000 Well, let me tell you.

02:00:48.000 We're so far down the road now because what happens now is it all became legitimate when I say that.

02:00:57.000 Not that I was a nice fan of gangsters, but...

02:01:05.000 But it's something uh rewarding about giving someone a chance to play.

02:01:15.000 Here's some money, go play.

02:01:17.000 Now what's gonna happen is he's either gonna win or you're gonna lose.

02:01:22.000 But if you win, you might get a group called the Beatles.

02:01:26.000 If you win, you might get a group out of San Francisco called Slying The stones.

02:01:30.000 If you win, you might get a group called The Temptations.

02:01:34.000 If you win, you might get Diana Ross.

02:01:37.000 If you win, you might get a Taylor Swift.

02:01:39.000 You know what I'm saying?

02:01:40.000 In other words, just let the artist go.

02:01:45.000 Right.

02:01:46.000 Let him go.

02:01:47.000 And that goes with everything.

02:01:49.000 You know, there's there's people who, like I said, in in school, they're incredible academically.

02:01:55.000 They can recite to you everything that's ever happened and will give you every, you know, backup to that.

02:02:01.000 Now that we have ChatGPT, and it's not so much the same, but the point is, and then there are those that go, I wrote a poem, lucky to hear it.

02:02:11.000 Or I read a book.

02:02:12.000 I want you to hear about it.

02:02:14.000 I have an idea about going to Mars.

02:02:19.000 What?

02:02:22.000 I mean, you know, you just I mean, the first thing is before you become a genius, you have to take the uh responsibility of being an absolute idiot to everybody around you.

02:02:33.000 An idiot is when you came up with your first idea.

02:02:37.000 Lionel, where do you hear all your songs from?

02:02:39.000 I hear them from the other side.

02:02:41.000 Lionel's an idiot.

02:02:44.000 Where did I say that?

02:02:45.000 On a university campus.

02:02:48.000 Now, when the world finally becomes attuned to your frequency, oh my God, you hear the word genius.

02:02:56.000 The answer is no, I'm still the idiot that suggested it from the beginning.

02:03:01.000 Well, I think if you said that today, though, don't you think more people would be inclined to listen to you saying uh the songs, the ideas come from the other side.

02:03:09.000 But now, yes, now yes, because I can explain to them, because why?

02:03:15.000 They trust me now.

02:03:16.000 I But even if they didn't know you now, I think that idea is more expensive.

02:03:20.000 Well, yes, yeah, now yes, you're right.

02:03:22.000 Because now we've opened that channel up now to where people can talk like that.

02:03:25.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:03:25.000 Yes.

02:03:26.000 Definitely.

02:03:27.000 Yeah.

02:03:27.000 But back then, 1970, 69, 68, right?

02:03:33.000 Talking like that means Lionel is on either LSD or some kind of tab.

02:03:40.000 He's on some kind of tab, yeah.

02:03:42.000 But he's definitely not in his right mind.

02:03:44.000 Yeah, or he's mentally unwell.

02:03:46.000 And you understand.

02:03:48.000 But he's crazy.

02:03:49.000 He's crazy.

02:03:50.000 A genius maniac.

02:03:51.000 Yeah.

02:03:52.000 But he won't be here long.

02:03:52.000 Yeah.

02:03:53.000 Right.

02:03:54.000 That's like Kanye West.

02:03:54.000 Yeah.

02:03:55.000 Yeah.

02:03:55.000 We'll get genius maniac.

02:03:58.000 We'll get him to rehab as soon as possible.

02:04:00.000 Right.

02:04:01.000 Yeah.

02:04:01.000 Right.

02:04:02.000 I mean, that's what they were doing a lot of Kanye's career, just trying to manage his insanity that also led to this insane creative output.

02:04:09.000 Yeah, I mean, I I'll be honest with you.

02:04:11.000 Uh Richard Pryor, I use this as my perfect example.

02:04:15.000 I mean, uh I I I would just wait for his next what's coming out of his mouth.

02:04:20.000 Right.

02:04:21.000 And then one day he sobered up.

02:04:24.000 And couldn't get funny.

02:04:27.000 And I kept thinking, what just happened?

02:04:29.000 Well, he went to rehab.

02:04:30.000 Well, yeah, I know, but where's the where's your edge?

02:04:35.000 Yeah.

02:04:36.000 And uh, so you know, some is there's a word for it, there's a phrase for it, where you learn your craft under the influence of.

02:04:44.000 And if you happen to not know how you got there off of the influence, that when you finally get off of it, you don't know how to get back to it.

02:04:53.000 Unless you go back on it.

02:04:56.000 Well, even if you do, it's a different place.

02:04:59.000 Mm-hmm.

02:05:00.000 Like my one of my favorite examples of this is Stephen King.

02:05:03.000 Oh.

02:05:04.000 I love early Stephen King.

02:05:06.000 If you listen, I mean if you read rather The Shining, uh Tommy Knocker's, I mean, Misery, King.

02:05:06.000 Perfect.

02:05:15.000 Cujo, Pet Cemetery, but this was cocaine, snorting, beer drinking, out of his fucking mind.

02:05:23.000 Like he he wrote entire books and doesn't remember anything about writing them.

02:05:30.000 To be in their presence is one of the most incredible things you'll ever see and hear and experience in your life.

02:05:38.000 Again, I I got to the point where if I was just allowed in the room, remember now.

02:05:45.000 I mean, I was allowed in the room when Marvin and and Stevie's and uh God, I can't.

02:05:55.000 Did you grasp that historically at the time, like what that meant?

02:05:59.000 I couldn't breathe.

02:06:00.000 Did I grasp it?

02:06:01.000 I couldn't breathe.

02:06:03.000 I mean, do you know what this was?

02:06:03.000 Wow.

02:06:05.000 This was the gift of life.

02:06:08.000 I mean, that's Barry Gordy.

02:06:12.000 Right.

02:06:13.000 You know what Barry Gordy was back in the day?

02:06:16.000 God.

02:06:17.000 He existed on the moon somewhere.

02:06:20.000 You know, Hollandosia and Holland.

02:06:23.000 These were, you know, this is all there in the moon.

02:06:26.000 Aretha Franklin and uh Armad Erdogan and uh uh King Curtis and this is the moon people, man.

02:06:36.000 Uh Sammy Davis Jr., Sidney Poity, these are moon people.

02:06:41.000 And to have them sit in a room, not in a seminar, in their living room, saying, you know what, let me tell you a story about who.

02:06:52.000 Now there's one part of me going, mm-hmm.

02:06:55.000 Mm-hmm.

02:06:56.000 And then it's another part of me going, holy shit, I'm sitting here listening to a freaking Barry Gordon, Sydney Porty.

02:07:04.000 You follow me?

02:07:05.000 Yeah.

02:07:05.000 How did I get in that room?

02:07:07.000 So another title was going to be was Fly on the Wall.

02:07:10.000 But I just didn't want to be a fly.

02:07:12.000 But but the point is, I mean, I had the opportunity one on one.

02:07:19.000 Not in a TED talk.

02:07:21.000 Right.

02:07:22.000 But one on one with some of the greatest people of our time.

02:07:26.000 How well did you know Richard Pryor?

02:07:28.000 Oh my God, man.

02:07:29.000 Richard was wonderful.

02:07:31.000 I mean, uh well.

02:07:33.000 I mean, Paul Mooney, Richard Pryor, and and uh I knew Mooney real well.

02:07:40.000 I mean, this is uh again, totally out of his mind.

02:07:46.000 Totally funny, but more importantly, totally in charge.

02:07:51.000 I mean, he knew his I saw his frustration because they were trying to deal with him commercially.

02:07:59.000 They discovered that maybe he might be able to be on network television.

02:08:03.000 Wrong answer.

02:08:04.000 You know, but he was so gifted in presenting the street struggle, and you laughed about it.

02:08:16.000 Miss Rudolph was Miss Rudolph, man.

02:08:19.000 I mean, when he said Miss Rudolph, everybody knew what you're talking about, you know, or or you know, they put me in jail for shooting my car.

02:08:27.000 I mean, I mean, you know, uh but uh to know him off uh camera, to know him off the stage.

02:08:37.000 You know, what I found a lot about my um comedian friends is you know, there's a to make things funny, you have to take dark things and make them funny.

02:08:50.000 Yeah.

02:08:50.000 But they stay most of the time in darkness.

02:08:54.000 And Richard was in darkness a lot of time, a lot of time of his life.

02:08:59.000 Yeah, that was surprising to people.

02:09:01.000 You know, when you see a guy that's so funny and so loved, you see assume his life must be amazing.

02:09:08.000 But he was struggling all the time.

02:09:10.000 I mean, he later revealed that, you know, the story from uh Jojo Dancer, your life is calling, which is like loosely based around his life.

02:09:10.000 All the time.

02:09:18.000 He accidentally caught on fire.

02:09:20.000 Yeah.

02:09:21.000 But in real life, he set himself on fire.

02:09:23.000 Of course he did.

02:09:24.000 Yeah.

02:09:24.000 I mean the book, the book that I just finished.

02:09:24.000 Yeah.

02:09:31.000 It's it's the struggle.

02:09:33.000 Everyone keeps saying what you start off in the rural south.

02:09:35.000 Forget the rule south.

02:09:37.000 I was struggling with myself, which is what everybody struggles with.

02:09:42.000 So the answer is it it's not that I made it.

02:09:47.000 It's this who was I struggling with.

02:09:49.000 You're struggling with yourself.

02:09:51.000 And all of us are struggling with ourselves.

02:09:53.000 Yeah.

02:09:53.000 That's what made the book to me so meaningful because people walk back to me and go, Lionel, I felt the same way.

02:09:59.000 Now you know what that's called in my business?

02:10:01.000 A hit record.

02:10:03.000 When you write a song and everybody comes back to you and says, Man, I was feeling the same way.

02:10:07.000 You got to hit record.

02:10:08.000 Yeah.

02:10:09.000 Well, when you can write in a book, Vulnerability, where you can write in a book, Fear, where you can write in a book, I'm not sure.

02:10:17.000 I wasn't sure.

02:10:18.000 I was scared.

02:10:19.000 They go.

02:10:22.000 How could you be scared and and do all that?

02:10:25.000 And the answer is step forward.

02:10:27.000 Yeah.

02:10:28.000 Step forward.

02:10:29.000 Scared to Death.

02:10:30.000 We're all scared to death.

02:10:31.000 Are you kidding me?

02:10:33.000 You know, we don't know what we're doing from day to day.

02:10:35.000 It's just we work it out.

02:10:37.000 Yeah.

02:10:38.000 But it's not where we all this confidence and crap.

02:10:42.000 No, no, no, no.

02:10:43.000 And as time goes on, you kind of develop a little okay.

02:10:46.000 And it's called filling out your skin as time goes on.

02:10:49.000 You get a little bit more confident in the fact that I I kinda know what I'm doing but becoming a professional.

02:10:54.000 There you go.

02:10:55.000 But for the beginning stages of your life, what the hell you're doing?

02:10:58.000 Come on.

02:10:58.000 Yeah.

02:10:59.000 Yeah, you can't.

02:11:00.000 Yeah, but it's just very valuable for people to hear that from someone that's very successful.

02:11:09.000 He's just Lionel Richie.

02:11:10.000 I mean, it's just it is what it is.

02:11:12.000 You know what I mean?

02:11:13.000 Must be nice.

02:11:14.000 That's how they look at it.

02:11:15.000 I know.

02:11:17.000 Oh, that's a bizarre path that a human being took to superstar them.

02:11:21.000 It's a strange thing.

02:11:23.000 And at any one point in the life, I could have turned around and said I quit.

02:11:27.000 And that's that's very valuable for people to hear as well.

02:11:27.000 Yeah.

02:11:30.000 And people will in the fact that you're so honest and you're so open about things, it helps so much because when people read that, they'll they'll think of themselves and the the moments where they've struggled, or the moments where they've been unsure of themselves or not sure what to do or wanted to quit and didn't.

02:11:45.000 It's like this is universal.

02:11:47.000 It's universal.

02:11:48.000 And the difference between a Lionel Richie and um Sandy Smith out there who's listening to this is that Sandy Smith hasn't started taking her first steps.

02:11:56.000 Yeah.

02:11:56.000 And that if she keeps going down that line, she could be her.

02:12:00.000 Yeah.

02:12:00.000 You know, it's just it's just keep going.

02:12:03.000 It's the there's there's talent, there's gifts of God, there's all sorts of things.

02:12:08.000 But one of those things that they all have in common, if you know of them, it's though they kept going.

02:12:12.000 Like Jimi Hendrix clearly obviously was godly gift.

02:12:12.000 Yeah.

02:12:16.000 Absolutely.

02:12:17.000 Just gifted.

02:12:17.000 Gifted.

02:12:18.000 Something special.

02:12:19.000 Also worked like a motherfucker.

02:12:19.000 Yeah.

02:12:22.000 Like uh the work, the work ethic was insane.

02:12:26.000 Yeah.

02:12:26.000 Think about how many records Nas wrote.

02:12:26.000 It has to be.

02:12:28.000 They were releasing records for years after his death.

02:12:31.000 Years after his death.

02:12:32.000 Because he never left the studio.

02:12:34.000 It just worked.

02:12:34.000 Of course.

02:12:35.000 That's how you get that guy.

02:12:36.000 That's how you get there.

02:12:37.000 You see Biggie on the streets in Brooklyn when he was 17 years old, you're like, oh, okay.

02:12:41.000 Okay.

02:12:41.000 With sheets of paper.

02:12:42.000 Yeah.

02:12:42.000 Wrapping with perfect flow at 17.

02:12:44.000 You're like, oh, okay.

02:12:45.000 I get it.

02:12:46.000 You just go.

02:12:47.000 Or you get around major corporate leaders and you say to myself, Oh my God, you built this company.

02:12:52.000 I say, I was bankrupt twelve times.

02:12:55.000 You know what I'm saying?

02:12:56.000 Oh you were?

02:12:57.000 Yeah.

02:12:58.000 All you remember was the smash.

02:13:00.000 But you don't remember, oh what?

02:13:00.000 Yeah.

02:13:01.000 What what are you talking about?

02:13:02.000 You know, in other words, how many times can you take no?

02:13:06.000 How many times can you take rejection?

02:13:08.000 Right.

02:13:08.000 How many times can you go, I quit?

02:13:11.000 And then you wake up the next morning and go, I got another idea.

02:13:13.000 Yeah.

02:13:14.000 Cause they're the world is designed to make you go away.

02:13:17.000 Right.

02:13:19.000 Right.

02:13:19.000 It's very simple.

02:13:20.000 Don't get psyched out.

02:13:20.000 Right.

02:13:21.000 I tell the kids on American Islands, don't get psyched out.

02:13:25.000 Just because this person can hit every note perfectly, and you have this cracky voice, and it's it's but I can't remember this perfect voice.

02:13:34.000 But I can remember your cracky voice.

02:13:37.000 That means you've got a personality.

02:13:40.000 This is a great karaoke singer over here.

02:13:44.000 Right.

02:13:45.000 Perfect notes don't work.

02:13:46.000 Versus something authentic that really resonates with you.

02:13:49.000 There we go.

02:13:50.000 There we go.

02:13:51.000 I want to know what your little quirp is.

02:13:51.000 Yeah.

02:13:54.000 What's that what's that thing?

02:13:56.000 You know, Cardi B is Cardi B for a reason.

02:13:56.000 Yeah.

02:13:59.000 Do you follow what I'm saying?

02:13:59.000 Right.

02:14:00.000 There's a lot of folks that came along.

02:14:02.000 Right.

02:14:02.000 Cardi B is car I mean, I'm just using her as a one example.

02:14:05.000 But the the wonderful thing about it is she came with a personality.

02:14:08.000 She came with a thing.

02:14:10.000 Yeah.

02:14:10.000 You know.

02:14:11.000 Yeah.

02:14:12.000 And to me, that's the quality I'm looking for, not only in the music business, but in life.

02:14:20.000 Okay, so you're rich.

02:14:21.000 Okay, so but who are you?

02:14:23.000 What what's your what's your thing?

02:14:26.000 What's your who are you?

02:14:27.000 Do I like being around you?

02:14:28.000 Do I like being around you?

02:14:29.000 Are you a tell me what you what is it?

02:14:32.000 Otherwise you're just rich.

02:14:32.000 Yeah.

02:14:34.000 Okay.

02:14:35.000 And you got stuff.

02:14:35.000 Yeah.

02:14:36.000 Okay.

02:14:37.000 But who are you?

02:14:39.000 Right.

02:14:40.000 You have a shitty foundation in your house.

02:14:43.000 Right.

02:14:43.000 Exactly.

02:14:44.000 You have a beautiful house on a shitty foundation.

02:14:46.000 Oh, you got no taste at all.

02:14:47.000 There's a lot of no taste.

02:14:50.000 Well, listen, Lionel, it's been a real honor having you on here, man, and a real pleasure.

02:14:54.000 And I really enjoy talking to you, man.

02:14:55.000 It's fascinating conversation, and I really applaud your honesty and your your insight into your life, it's it's amazing.

02:15:04.000 It's really awesome.

02:15:05.000 Well, I gotta be honest with you.

02:15:06.000 There's an old expression that goes, uh sometimes you don't want to meet the person because they may not be what you thought they were.

02:15:14.000 You know, uh, you're exactly who I thought.

02:15:18.000 Oh, what's it?

02:15:19.000 No, I mean, because you know, you mastered this personality where you can sit down and talk to just about everybody.

02:15:26.000 And on the days when you struggle with trying to make a communication with somebody and it doesn't work out, I go, I understand why it didn't work out.

02:15:34.000 Because you know, you sometimes you have a block right in front of you, you go, okay, I just have to deal with the block.

02:15:39.000 But I've enjoyed this, man.

02:15:39.000 Yeah.

02:15:40.000 This is a lot of fun, lot of fun.

02:15:43.000 Thank you.

02:15:43.000 And best of luck with everything, and you've already had best of luck in the world.

02:15:47.000 We love that book.

02:15:47.000 No, no, no.

02:15:48.000 Come on.

02:15:48.000 Truly, Lionel Richie out now.

02:15:50.000 Did you do the audio version?

02:15:52.000 We did the art.

02:15:52.000 I did not do the auto version.

02:15:54.000 And somebody else did it?

02:15:55.000 I did.

02:15:56.000 I swear to you, I did not do it.

02:15:59.000 Um how you know what it was.

02:16:03.000 If you know Lionel Richard, okay, let me tell you something.

02:16:07.000 For the time it took me to write this book.

02:16:12.000 Two and a half years.

02:16:14.000 Okay, so let me just let me be honest with you.

02:16:17.000 You don't want me to read this book because I'd go, I don't want to put that in, guys.

02:16:21.000 Can I change that one line?

02:16:23.000 Uh you follow me?

02:16:24.000 Right, right.

02:16:24.000 So I keep creating, I keep creating.

02:16:29.000 And so it's just one of those things.

02:16:32.000 Oh no, wait, wait.

02:16:33.000 I I'm drawing a blank.

02:16:34.000 Why am I drawing uh drawing a blank?

02:16:36.000 Blair underwood.

02:16:37.000 Blair, oh Jesus.

02:16:39.000 Blair Underwood.

02:16:40.000 Blair Underwood.

02:16:40.000 Okay.

02:16:41.000 I love we first of all, we kind of had kids in in common.

02:16:46.000 Our kids went to the same school.

02:16:48.000 So when I say we had kids in common, no, we didn't have the same thing.

02:16:50.000 No, no, I but we had kids at the same time, and so we met back then.

02:16:54.000 But what I love about him is he understands the I call it the middle class approach to to my life.

02:17:04.000 In other words, he understood the fact that did we grow up in the rural South, did we struggle that we said No, no, it's it's not the that kind of struggle.

02:17:13.000 We had a struggle of understanding our identity and how to take that forward as artist.

02:17:19.000 And he understood the humor.

02:17:21.000 I love his voice because it's not so identifiable that it uh if it was a Morgan Friedman, I'm just giving that as a perfect example.

02:17:28.000 And I love Morgan, but it's too identifiable.

02:17:30.000 I want somebody who can tell a joke and it sounds like Lionel.

02:17:32.000 Right, right.

02:17:33.000 You know, he had that quality.

02:17:34.000 And so when I I said, no, no, no, I won't I want you.

02:17:38.000 And we hit it off.

02:17:39.000 Well, his voice, you'll hear it.

02:17:41.000 Understandable.

02:17:42.000 You'll under you'll understand.

02:17:43.000 Well, thank you, Lionel.

02:17:44.000 Thank you again.

02:17:45.000 And best of luck again with everything.

02:17:46.000 Really appreciate it.

02:17:47.000 Thanks, man.

02:17:48.000 It was awesome.

The Joe Rogan Experience - October 02, 2025

Joe Rogan Experience #2388 - Lionel Richie

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