The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan experience.

00:00:06.000 Trade my day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night, all day.

00:00:12.000 Gentlemen, good to see you, brother.

00:00:12.000 Okay.

00:00:14.000 Hey, good to see you again.

00:00:15.000 How you been?

00:00:15.000 You've been hanging, man.

00:00:16.000 How about yourself?

00:00:17.000 I'm good.

00:00:18.000 I'm good.

00:00:18.000 And Jeff, nice to meet you as well.

00:00:19.000 Nice to meet you, Joe.

00:00:20.000 This is another one of your very unusual friendships, Darryl.

00:00:25.000 I'm trying to make it the norm.

00:00:27.000 Do you understand?

00:00:28.000 Well, I mean, you're a real example of what can be done just by being a nice person.

00:00:34.000 Hey, thank you, man, for the mention with Bono.

00:00:39.000 Oh, my pleasure.

00:00:40.000 My pleasure.

00:00:42.000 So for people that don't know, Daryl has, I mean, how many people now have you converted?

00:00:48.000 I stopped counting after 200 and some.

00:00:51.000 Daryl, his journey initially started, you're a musician.

00:00:55.000 You met a Klansman at a bar, and he couldn't believe what a nice guy you were.

00:00:59.000 You struck up a friendship.

00:01:00.000 And I prayed like Jerry Lee Lewis that he didn't understand that.

00:01:04.000 That too.

00:01:05.000 The talent.

00:01:06.000 And then this guy quit the Klan because of you and handed you his outfit and said, like, I'm done.

00:01:15.000 Obviously, I'm wrong.

00:01:17.000 All this is wrong.

00:01:18.000 And you then went on to start meeting a lot of other Klan members and a lot of other different neo-Nazi factions.

00:01:26.000 And you got a lot of these people to quit these hateful organizations.

00:01:32.000 Well, I got them to rethink because I gave them things, perspectives they had not considered before or not been exposed to.

00:01:40.000 And that caused them to quit.

00:01:44.000 I wasn't trying to get them out.

00:01:45.000 I'm just trying to show them a different path.

00:01:47.000 But it's just your patience and your ability to communicate to people is just very admirable.

00:01:47.000 Right.

00:01:55.000 Because that's a very tough path.

00:01:57.000 You know, you, for people just listening, you're a black man.

00:02:00.000 You're meeting a Klansman and you strike up a friendship.

00:02:04.000 You wind up having dinner at his house, hanging out with him.

00:02:07.000 He's like, you're actually a really nice guy.

00:02:09.000 He's like, fuck, what the fuck am I doing with my life?

00:02:12.000 And just by your own personality and just being a good human, you converted him.

00:02:19.000 But, you know, an interesting component to that also happens because, you know, there are people who won't talk to me, you know, and they want to fight me and stuff, all the kind of crazy stuff.

00:02:27.000 I've seen it all, right?

00:02:29.000 But some of their buddies who are just as hateful as they are, you know, when they talk to me and they end up leaving, their life improves.

00:02:37.000 Hate is exhausting.

00:02:38.000 Right.

00:02:39.000 You know, and hate begets more hate.

00:02:43.000 But so when they leave, their life improves.

00:02:45.000 And then the buddy who wanted to fight me or didn't want to talk to me, he sees his buddy's life improve.

00:02:50.000 Then he reconsiders.

00:02:52.000 So it has that component to it as well.

00:02:55.000 And so it's been more than 200 now, which is really amazing.

00:02:59.000 And I think just these conversations that you've had with a lot of people have sort of opened up a lot of people's eyes as well.

00:03:06.000 It's like, you know, you think of someone like that's a KKK member, neo-Nazi, or whatever it is, and you go, well, that guy's got to be a piece of shit as a human being.

00:03:16.000 And then you realize, like, well, a lot of these people just got fucked over in life and started off on the wrong foot and were with the wrong people and got indoctrinated to the wrong ideology and experienced the wrong things.

00:03:29.000 And next thing you know, they have this rigid idea of what the world is and how they fit in.

00:03:35.000 And it's all fucked up and it's all wrong. 0.97

00:03:37.000 And they just don't run into anyone that shows them a different perspective.

00:03:42.000 Like if you're in a small town and you're around just a bunch of assholes all the time, you're around the same assholes.

00:03:48.000 Like you might think everyone's an asshole.

00:03:50.000 And then you go on vacation, you know, maybe in Hawaii.

00:03:53.000 Like, God, everybody's nice here.

00:03:55.000 What's going on?

00:03:56.000 Maybe I have a totally different view of the world.

00:03:58.000 Well, you can have that with everything.

00:04:00.000 You could have that with geographical locations.

00:04:02.000 You could have that with racial disparities.

00:04:04.000 You could have that with everything.

00:04:05.000 Well, I mean, you know, let's take racism out of the picture for a second.

00:04:09.000 Let's look at our own country.

00:04:11.000 You know, as a musician, right?

00:04:13.000 I do a lot.

00:04:14.000 I've played in all 50 states, okay?

00:04:17.000 You know, and when I sign, you know, go to, I have a booking in, say, let's say New York City, you know, everything's got to be on paper.

00:04:23.000 You got to sign this contract.

00:04:25.000 And they want things like yesterday.

00:04:26.000 You know, it's very fast-paced, et cetera.

00:04:29.000 So, you know, you sign a contract and people adhere to it, whatever.

00:04:33.000 My experience in the South, you know, say Mississippi, Georgia, something like that, they don't care about contracts, even though I get one.

00:04:41.000 You know, a handshake is good enough.

00:04:43.000 You know, they feel that their word is their bond.

00:04:46.000 So, you know, you present them with a contract.

00:04:48.000 It's like, well, you don't trust me?

00:04:49.000 You know, that kind of thing.

00:04:50.000 Right, right.

00:04:51.000 In the Midwest, which is where I'm from originally, you know, it takes a while for people to get to know you.

00:04:56.000 They want to get to know you before they commit.

00:04:58.000 They're very close to the vest.

00:04:59.000 Out in California, it's like, I'll get around to it maybe next week, maybe the week after.

00:05:04.000 Right, right.

00:05:06.000 Now, Jeff, how did you guys meet?

00:05:09.000 So I was contacted by a filmmaker, and they said, would you come down and film as part of this program?

00:05:17.000 So I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis.

00:05:18.000 In the movement, we knew who Daryl Davis was because he was pulling people out of this movie.

00:05:22.000 Explain the movement.

00:05:23.000 What movement you were a part of?

00:05:25.000 I was a part of the National Socialist Movement.

00:05:28.000 Which is Nazis. 0.88

00:05:29.000 Nazis.

00:05:30.000 For people that don't.

00:05:30.000 It sounds like socialists.

00:05:32.000 Like, oh, college campuses, you know, you want Marxism, free health care for all.

00:05:36.000 No.

00:05:37.000 Different kind of socialism.

00:05:39.000 Neo-Nazism, yeah.

00:05:39.000 Yeah.

00:05:41.000 And how did you get indoctrinated into that?

00:05:44.000 So I was a part of that movement for 27 years.

00:05:47.000 Wow.

00:05:47.000 27 years.

00:05:48.000 How old are you?

00:05:49.000 So I'm 51.

00:05:50.000 Okay, you look young.

00:05:52.000 I thought you were about 40.

00:05:53.000 I was like, what the fuck?

00:05:54.000 Well, that's okay.

00:05:55.000 No, you look good.

00:05:56.000 Thank you.

00:05:57.000 Which is crazy for a Nazi.

00:05:59.000 I would think it's a lot of stress.

00:06:00.000 You'd think it is a lot of stress.

00:06:02.000 Hate stress.

00:06:03.000 Yeah, look, I lost all my hair.

00:06:04.000 It's mine, too.

00:06:05.000 I'm not a Nazi.

00:06:10.000 So how old were you when you got into it?

00:06:12.000 When I first started the fascination with it, it was about fourth grade.

00:06:16.000 Fourth grade?

00:06:17.000 Fourth grade.

00:06:17.000 How?

00:06:18.000 My grandfather fought in Hitler's army during the war, and my great uncles did as well.

00:06:22.000 So my mother and grandparents came over after the war.

00:06:26.000 Wait a minute, fought in Hitler's army?

00:06:28.000 Correct.

00:06:28.000 Oh, they fought for the Nazis.

00:06:31.000 Yes.

00:06:32.000 Wow.

00:06:33.000 Yes.

00:06:34.000 So my mother and grandparents came over after the war.

00:06:37.000 But so one would think, so he was indoctrinated by his family.

00:06:42.000 Not the truth.

00:06:44.000 Quite opposite, actually.

00:06:45.000 But I was fascinated.

00:06:46.000 I knew that history, and I knew that my grandfather had fought, and I looked up to him.

00:06:50.000 So I sought out on that journey myself, you know.

00:06:55.000 But what attracted you to that?

00:06:57.000 Like, first of all, you have a made in Detroit church.

00:06:59.000 Are you from Detroit?

00:07:00.000 Yes.

00:07:01.000 Well, I'm based in Detroit now.

00:07:02.000 So were you living in Detroit at the time?

00:07:04.000 Yes.

00:07:05.000 So why, what made you fascinated with Nazis living in Detroit? 0.68

00:07:10.000 Well, I grew up in rural Minnesota.

00:07:12.000 I live in Detroit now is what I meant.

00:07:14.000 But knowing that family history, I just looked up to my grandfather and I thought, you know, he's a strong individual.

00:07:21.000 This is a, I'm just going to say it, like, I thought it was cool at the time.

00:07:25.000 There's nothing cool about it.

00:07:27.000 But I wasn't taught to hate.

00:07:28.000 I wasn't raised to hate.

00:07:30.000 And so I seek out this movement.

00:07:32.000 I join as a teenager, quickly rise up through the ranks.

00:07:35.000 Within a couple of years, I was appointed the national leader of that organization.

00:07:38.000 And then I was there for 27 years.

00:07:40.000 So I was taught racism and hate and to be an anti-Semite.

00:07:44.000 Now, when you were in the fourth grade, what were you?

00:07:46.000 Do you remember what your feelings were about people?

00:07:50.000 I wasn't a racist at that point or anything like that.

00:07:53.000 It was just thinking that it was cool, seeing the videos.

00:07:56.000 I remember watching old World War II documentaries, thinking I'm going to find my grandfather in these footages, you know.

00:08:03.000 And I just looked up to him and I sought out that path.

00:08:07.000 And once you're indoctrinated, once you join and you're overwhelmed with this kind of ideology, it becomes your whole world.

00:08:13.000 It's your echo chamber.

00:08:15.000 Everything about it, everything that you're involved in, circles around that world.

00:08:19.000 And so like when you're in the fourth grade and you get interested in this, how do you eventually like join up and meet the Nazis?

00:08:25.000 Like, how does that happen?

00:08:27.000 Well, at that age, you're not, you know, you're not meeting the Nazis or anything like that.

00:08:31.000 Today, kids are online and they're.

00:08:34.000 That's a good point.

00:08:35.000 Right.

00:08:36.000 But at that point, I wasn't.

00:08:37.000 So I was searching it out.

00:08:39.000 And by the time I was 18, then I'm joining.

00:08:42.000 Yeah, you didn't have Kanye songs back then.

00:08:44.000 Right.

00:08:46.000 Your song is so crazy.

00:08:48.000 Like, someone needs to pull Kanye aside and give him a hug.

00:08:51.000 That sounds crazy.

00:08:53.000 So what was the first organization that you officially became a part of?

00:08:59.000 And what did they do?

00:09:01.000 So the National Socialist Movement was the group that I sought out.

00:09:04.000 How did you find them, first of all?

00:09:05.000 Because this was all before the internet, right?

00:09:07.000 This was a really kind of strange story.

00:09:07.000 Right.

00:09:09.000 So I'm looking for books.

00:09:10.000 I'm trying to read everything I can on it.

00:09:12.000 I'm trying to find these.

00:09:13.000 Did you have other hobbies or just being a Nazi? 0.56

00:09:15.000 No, I had.

00:09:16.000 You had either baseball or anything like that?

00:09:18.000 I was a long-haired rock and roll singer.

00:09:20.000 No fucking way.

00:09:21.000 Right.

00:09:22.000 You were a rock and roll Nazi?

00:09:23.000 That's nuts.

00:09:24.000 Right.

00:09:25.000 That seems like so.

00:09:26.000 That's like jumbo shrimp. 0.74

00:09:28.000 Right.

00:09:29.000 That's so counterintuitive.

00:09:32.000 How are you a rock and roll Nazi?

00:09:34.000 That's rock and roll is all about like freedom and creativity and expression.

00:09:39.000 I know there's a lot of counterintuitive stuff in my life.

00:09:42.000 Wow.

00:09:42.000 Yeah.

00:09:43.000 Well, that just shows you people are really complicated.

00:09:45.000 Yeah.

00:09:46.000 You know.

00:09:47.000 So when you first found these people, so you're a rock and roll musician.

00:09:52.000 And how do you find them?

00:09:55.000 So I found them in a book at the library.

00:09:58.000 I'm ordering all these books, and it was written by a sociologist or something, and they had all these addresses of everybody that participated in the book in the back of the book.

00:10:06.000 So I'm writing, physically writing, not like emailing today, but like writing all these organizations.

00:10:11.000 And then I eventually...

00:10:13.000 How old were you at the time?

00:10:14.000 Like 18.

00:10:15.000 So you're 18, you're writing Nazi groups saying, hey, I'm ready.

00:10:19.000 Sign me up.

00:10:20.000 Yep.

00:10:21.000 Wow.

00:10:21.000 Okay, so who responds?

00:10:23.000 So everybody, some of the groups were closed down at that point, but most of the groups responded in a minute.

00:10:28.000 And I'm looking through all the literature and I meet up with the National Socialist Movement at the time.

00:10:33.000 It was called National Socialist American Workers' Freedom Movement.

00:10:36.000 Again, this is the Nazis. 0.86

00:10:37.000 That's a lot of words.

00:10:38.000 That's what I thought.

00:10:39.000 Yeah.

00:10:40.000 American Workers Freedom Movement?

00:10:41.000 Yeah, that's a lot of...

00:10:44.000 Freedom for some people, you know.

00:10:45.000 Yeah.

00:10:46.000 Another counterintuitive thing there.

00:10:49.000 Socialist for some people.

00:10:51.000 Right.

00:10:52.000 Not that socialism, not left-wing.

00:10:54.000 Yeah, weird socialism.

00:10:56.000 So like, what were they involved in?

00:10:59.000 So when you meet them, do you have to have like a, is there a vetting process?

00:11:02.000 They make sure you're not a fed or sit you down.

00:11:05.000 And, you know, what are you looking for?

00:11:07.000 Why are you involved?

00:11:08.000 Why are you interested?

00:11:09.000 Yeah, and back then the group was pretty small, but the reason that I picked that organization, I mean, it was only in a handful of states at the time I joined.

00:11:18.000 It was pretty small.

00:11:20.000 The National Socialist Movement was a continuation of the movement of George Lincoln Rockwell, who was the original founder of the American Nazi Party.

00:11:27.000 So that's why I wanted to join that particular organization because it had that history because I was a fan of history.

00:11:33.000 I always wanted to be as close to the German movement as possible.

00:11:38.000 So that was the group that I sought out.

00:11:40.000 And then there is like a vetting process.

00:11:43.000 They want to know you sign up an application.

00:11:46.000 And later on in the group, I was doing things like having people sign non-disclosure agreements and doing background checks on people and things of that nature.

00:11:56.000 I want to point this out because this is a really crazy fact.

00:11:59.000 It's going to blow a lot of people's minds.

00:12:01.000 Before World War II, there was a Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden.

00:12:08.000 American Bund, the German-American Bund.

00:12:10.000 It is nuts when you see it in Madison Square Garden and you see the swastika, the whole deal, and you're like, this is before anybody had connected this with evil.

00:12:22.000 Like back then, that was an ancient Hindu symbol.

00:12:25.000 Like there's a Hindu temple near my old house in California, and it has swastikas all over it.

00:12:30.000 And because the temple's from the 1800s, and they have to tell people, hey, this is a sign.

00:12:35.000 Hey, it's not that kind of swastika.

00:12:37.000 Back in 2018, the State Department sent me over to India to speak and lecture.

00:12:42.000 And you see these users.

00:12:43.000 All over the place.

00:12:45.000 It's a peace.

00:12:46.000 Good luck kind of thing.

00:12:47.000 It was also a symbol for Shotokan karate.

00:12:50.000 When I was a kid, when we would meet these Shotokan karate tournaments, we'd go to the tournaments and meet these practitioners.

00:12:57.000 Some of them have swastika patches.

00:13:00.000 This is in the 80s.

00:13:01.000 This is nuts.

00:13:02.000 Jamie, show that photo game?

00:13:04.000 There's a video.

00:13:05.000 Oh, okay, show the video.

00:13:07.000 It's really crazy because you see this enormous crowd.

00:13:12.000 And this was before people had associated Nazis with a bad thing.

00:13:18.000 You know, back then, it was just this National Socialist Party.

00:13:23.000 They thought, okay, we're good.

00:13:25.000 By the way, that's how everybody used to salute the American flag.

00:13:29.000 Yes.

00:13:29.000 Did you know that?

00:13:30.000 Which is really crazy.

00:13:31.000 The Nazi salute now that Elon got in trouble for?

00:13:35.000 That is how you used to pledge of allegiance.

00:13:37.000 Right.

00:13:38.000 And then once the Nazis came along, they're like, all right, we've got to abandon that. 0.72

00:13:41.000 This is connected.

00:13:42.000 Got to ditch the little mustache and no more of that.

00:13:46.000 But this is a really crazy video to watch because it really makes you think how things can shift.

00:13:55.000 Well, you know, the highest percentage of white people in this country are of German descent.

00:14:00.000 The second highest are of British descent.

00:14:00.000 Yeah.

00:14:00.000 Really?

00:14:02.000 Yeah.

00:14:03.000 Wow.

00:14:04.000 I had no idea.

00:14:05.000 German.

00:14:05.000 I would have.

00:14:07.000 A lot of people think it's British.

00:14:08.000 I would have thought, yeah, God, that's nuts.

00:14:11.000 And you notice in that video, Joe, they also have George Washington up there.

00:14:15.000 So they've Americanized neo-Nazism.

00:14:18.000 But it was different back then, right?

00:14:20.000 This wasn't a racial cleansing.

00:14:23.000 They weren't involved in eugenics.

00:14:25.000 They weren't thinking in those terms, right?

00:14:28.000 I think that all came later, but this was all part of the movement here in the U.S. Right.

00:14:32.000 But what was the core tenets of this movement, the American Nazi movement, in the 1930s before the war?

00:14:38.000 Basically, it was German activists and they were allied with Hitler's National Socialism.

00:14:45.000 That was so was it anti-Semitic?

00:14:48.000 Was it anti-Jewish back then?

00:14:49.000 Sure, yes.

00:14:50.000 Even so this whole rally is a big anti-Semitism rally.

00:14:50.000 It was.

00:14:54.000 I mean, that was before my time, but yeah.

00:14:56.000 You're a historian on the Nazis. 0.52

00:14:58.000 Yes, yes.

00:14:58.000 Seems like you're an enthusiast.

00:15:00.000 I was.

00:15:00.000 Yeah.

00:15:04.000 So when you first get brought in, you're 18.

00:15:07.000 Like, what do they give you tasks to do?

00:15:10.000 Do they teach you about things?

00:15:11.000 Like, how's it going?

00:15:12.000 Yeah, so a lot of the propagandizing and stuff is books that you're reading and studying and stuff.

00:15:17.000 But the group had like meetings.

00:15:19.000 You would have literature distributions.

00:15:20.000 It would do like Mein Kampf.

00:15:23.000 Like what kind of reading that?

00:15:24.000 Yeah.

00:15:25.000 I had already read that by 16.

00:15:27.000 I already read that.

00:15:28.000 But the group is, you know, recommending books like that or Henry Ford's International Jew, other books like that as well.

00:15:36.000 Is that Henry Ford, the car guy?

00:15:38.000 Yes.

00:15:38.000 He wrote a book called International Jew.

00:15:40.000 Yes.

00:15:40.000 You know, he was very, very anti-Semitic and he supported the Nazis.

00:15:45.000 Yeah.

00:15:45.000 Whoa.

00:15:46.000 Henry Ford had a picture of Hitler on his desk, and Hitler had a picture of Henry Ford on his desk.

00:15:50.000 Whoa.

00:15:54.000 You'd be surprised, man, if I drove here.

00:15:58.000 Fuck.

00:16:01.000 You know, Walt Disney, same thing.

00:16:03.000 IBM at the time?

00:16:04.000 Same thing, yeah.

00:16:05.000 Oh, I knew about Walt Disney.

00:16:07.000 I had heard about Walt Disney, and I heard something about the roots of IBM as well.

00:16:07.000 I did.

00:16:11.000 Well, I mean, so many German automobile manufacturers, right?

00:16:14.000 Like Audi, Volkswagen, you know, all started off as Nazis. 0.92

00:16:20.000 Even Mercedes, right?

00:16:21.000 Was it a Nazi-owned company?

00:16:23.000 I don't know if they were owned by the Nazis, but they were definitely a German company, yeah.

00:16:26.000 That was one of the craziest things about the Kanye thing because Kanye lost his contract with Adidas because he had said anti-Semitic things.

00:16:35.000 Adidas was started by the Nazis.

00:16:39.000 Wow.

00:16:40.000 Which is just like.

00:16:42.000 But that goes to show people can advance and change.

00:16:45.000 Yes.

00:16:45.000 You know, the Red Cross used to not allow black blood.

00:16:49.000 And then when they finally allowed black blood, they said, you know, don't need blood. 0.75

00:16:52.000 Yes.

00:16:53.000 Back when the Red Cross first started collecting blood.

00:16:56.000 Okay, because you know, as you know, or you probably know, Charles Drew, you know, a black scientist, right, was the one who discovered how to give blood transfusions, right?

00:17:08.000 So Red Cross began collecting blood, and they would not take black blood. 0.53

00:17:13.000 And then when they finally took black blood, they segregated the blood. 0.85

00:17:16.000 It doesn't matter if it's black versus blood. 0.93

00:17:18.000 You know, you should segregate it by O positive or OB negative or whatever it is, right?

00:17:22.000 But not by the color of someone's skin.

00:17:24.000 That's crazy.

00:17:26.000 So they give you books.

00:17:28.000 They, you know, kind of indoctrinate you.

00:17:30.000 Like, what is in what is involved in being a member?

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00:19:06.000 Basically, you know, meetings.

00:19:08.000 Yeah, you go to meetings.

00:19:09.000 You do these meetings?

00:19:12.000 It varied.

00:19:13.000 So sometimes it was once a week, other times it was once a month.

00:19:16.000 It depends on the group as well.

00:19:16.000 It just kind of depends.

00:19:18.000 Some are very active, some are less active.

00:19:20.000 How far were the meetings from your home where you lived in Detroit?

00:19:23.000 Well, this was growing up in Minnesota.

00:19:25.000 Okay, so in Minnesota.

00:19:26.000 They were pretty close by.

00:19:27.000 I moved to the Twin Cities.

00:19:28.000 Were you shocked that they were that close?

00:19:31.000 No, no.

00:19:33.000 I had been looking for them since I was a teenager, but then by the time I was 18, I was able to find them.

00:19:38.000 Did you move to be close to where the meetings are held?

00:19:41.000 No, I moved to the Twin Cities because I wanted to be close to my band.

00:19:44.000 They based on it there.

00:19:45.000 But then early on, I was doxxed on a radio show.

00:19:49.000 I was going under a fake name at like 19 years old and still had the long hair.

00:19:53.000 I got it tucked up in a hat and I went on a radio show and I was doxed early on and that kind of changed the trajectory.

00:19:59.000 What did you go on the radio show for?

00:20:01.000 With the movement, with the show.

00:20:02.000 Oh, and then you got doxed as the band member?

00:20:05.000 Well, no, I got doxxed your home address and all that stuff?

00:20:09.000 My parents.

00:20:10.000 So I was going under the name Jeff Stevens because I wanted to separate my music career from the movement and also protect my family because I knew this was a movement that people didn't like and that could cause put them in harm's way.

00:20:23.000 And so I'm on the air and somehow the host says, you know, your name is not.

00:20:29.000 I'm spewing anti-Semitic drivel, which was pretty typical of how I behaved at the time.

00:20:35.000 And the woman that was running the show, she goes, your name is not Jeff Stevens.

00:20:40.000 It's Jeff Scoop, S-C-H-O-E-P.

00:20:44.000 And your mother lives in this town.

00:20:46.000 She's an attorney.

00:20:48.000 Your father works in manufacturing.

00:20:48.000 She works here.

00:20:50.000 He works here.

00:20:51.000 And we're going to call your mother in the next commercial break.

00:20:54.000 And my world just fell apart.

00:20:56.000 And I look back now and I try not to blame anybody else because these are my choices, my poor choices.

00:21:03.000 So I take responsibility for that.

00:21:05.000 But at 19 years old, that changed my trajectory.

00:21:08.000 I felt like my whole world just collapsed at that point.

00:21:12.000 Did you think, like, wow, all these people are mad at me?

00:21:14.000 Maybe I'm wrong?

00:21:16.000 No.

00:21:17.000 You know, you would think with this kind of stuff going on in your life, you know, you would reflect on that.

00:21:22.000 But I doubled down.

00:21:23.000 And that's pretty common in that world when someone is faced with that kind of pressure is they double down, they become more entrenched.

00:21:30.000 So it's like every lash of the proverbial whip, anybody that tried to stop me from being involved in it or tried to dissuade me, it just made me more dedicated to it and more intense in that belief system.

00:21:42.000 So I'm thinking I'm going to ruin my band's career now.

00:21:45.000 So I quit the band, I shaved my head, and then I put all that energy that I had put into music into the movement.

00:21:53.000 I felt like I had no choice.

00:21:56.000 What that did, that doxing, it affected my mother's career.

00:21:59.000 So I mean, this was a hate has consequences, and hate was something that was like a downward spiral for me.

00:22:06.000 And this is very common for anybody that's involved in it.

00:22:09.000 It separates you from your family, from those you love.

00:22:13.000 It isolates you.

00:22:15.000 And what it did to my mother's career is, as I mentioned, she was a lawyer. 0.99

00:22:19.000 She wanted to be a judge. 0.74

00:22:20.000 So she had ran to be a judge.

00:22:22.000 She was elected to be a judge.

00:22:24.000 And in the state of Minnesota, there's a, at the time, anyways, this is back in the 90s.

00:22:30.000 And there was a formality, and this is the way my mother explained to me at the time.

00:22:34.000 She says, the governor called me and she said, Mrs. Scoop, your son's a leader in the Nazi Party.

00:22:40.000 Your father fought in the German army during the war.

00:22:42.000 I do not feel you are fit to be a judge in this state.

00:22:46.000 So that was just devastating.

00:22:49.000 That's something I carry that guilt and shame to this day for doing that.

00:22:52.000 But at the time, I was like, okay, the system is after my family.

00:22:56.000 That's how I felt.

00:22:58.000 And it just made me double down and become more radical.

00:23:02.000 Did you have a job at the time?

00:23:04.000 Yeah.

00:23:04.000 What did you do for a job?

00:23:05.000 I was doing all kinds of jobs, working in factories and Pizza Hut and just anywhere I could.

00:23:12.000 But your main focus was on the movement.

00:23:14.000 Well, my main focus was on music until all that happened.

00:23:18.000 And then it became the movement, yeah.

00:23:20.000 And so, like, what are the different things that you guys did?

00:23:26.000 So the group would organize, you know, social gatherings where people would just hang out and drink and party and give talks.

00:23:33.000 And then there would be formal meetings where people would get dressed up and have these meetings.

00:23:38.000 You would do rallies.

00:23:40.000 One of the first rallies.

00:23:42.000 Just dressed up.

00:23:43.000 Dressed up in Nazi uniforms.

00:23:45.000 Yeah.

00:23:46.000 Like full-on German Nazi uniforms, armbands, all deal? 0.63

00:23:50.000 Yep, back then it was armbands and brown shirts and black ties.

00:23:54.000 Yep.

00:23:55.000 Is that you?

00:23:56.000 Yeah.

00:23:57.000 That's the old uniform.

00:23:58.000 Yep.

00:24:00.000 That's crazy.

00:24:04.000 So at any time while you're doing this, did you think, what am I doing?

00:24:09.000 I'm on the wrong path.

00:24:11.000 This is crazy.

00:24:13.000 No.

00:24:14.000 Not until later.

00:24:16.000 When was later?

00:24:18.000 Around the time when I met Daryl Davis.

00:24:20.000 Were you already having second thoughts about the direction of your life?

00:24:25.000 That's a tough one to answer.

00:24:27.000 I was starting to see the humanity in others.

00:24:29.000 Like after I moved, I moved to Detroit in December of 2007.

00:24:34.000 And Detroit's a majority minority city or people of different races.

00:24:41.000 So I'm having more interactions with people of other races.

00:24:44.000 By 2016, I'd met Daryl Davis.

00:24:47.000 And like I said, I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis.

00:24:50.000 How'd you guys meet?

00:24:52.000 It was for a film for Daryl's film Accidental Courtesy.

00:24:55.000 So they had reached out and they explained the show and I said, okay, you know, because any opportunity to spread the propaganda of the movement, I'm going to do it unless it was like Jerry Springer or something.

00:24:55.000 Okay, right.

00:25:06.000 So it sounded legit.

00:25:07.000 I agreed to it.

00:25:08.000 Didn't know I was meeting Daryl.

00:25:10.000 I still would have done it, but I would have probably prepared to debate this guy because I knew who he was.

00:25:16.000 I knew he was pulling people out of the movement.

00:25:18.000 And so this was at a place called Chris's Hot Dogs in Alabama, where Hank Williams had written the song.

00:25:25.000 It was, hey, hey, good looking.

00:25:27.000 You're out there, right?

00:25:28.000 Right.

00:25:29.000 And my girl and I were sitting outside and Daryl steps out of a vehicle and I'm thinking, you know, I recognize this guy.

00:25:38.000 He comes up, shakes my hand.

00:25:39.000 We shake hands.

00:25:40.000 And he says, hi, I'm Daryl Davis.

00:25:42.000 You must be Jeff Scoop.

00:25:43.000 And I'm thinking, where do I know that name from?

00:25:45.000 Where do I know his face?

00:25:46.000 It didn't quite register because I'm just thinking about, you know, this debate that we're going to get into.

00:25:53.000 And then after we sat down, it clicked.

00:25:57.000 I was like, oh, this is the guy that gets people out of these organizations.

00:26:01.000 So at this point, I'm the head of the National Socialist Movement.

00:26:04.000 And Daryl and I are getting along great.

00:26:06.000 We're talking about music.

00:26:07.000 We're talking about all these kind of things.

00:26:08.000 And it clicks in my head, oh, wow, I'm getting along too well with this guy.

00:26:13.000 He's the enemy, you know, or so-called enemy.

00:26:16.000 You know, he's on the other side.

00:26:17.000 So I better step it up here.

00:26:19.000 So I pound my fist on the table and I said, you know, Daryl, I'll fight to the last bullet for my people.

00:26:25.000 Yeah.

00:26:26.000 And Howard, prior to us getting together, the producer and director of the documentary is called Accidental Courtesy.

00:26:36.000 They asked me, you know, they followed me around the country.

00:26:39.000 I was conducting interviews with KKK members, Black Lives Matter, and different people.

00:26:45.000 And they said, do you know Jeff Scoop?

00:26:48.000 And I said, I know who he is.

00:26:49.000 I've never met him.

00:26:51.000 Would you be open to talking with him and interviewing him?

00:26:54.000 I said, sure.

00:26:55.000 So they contacted him.

00:26:58.000 And then they let me know, okay, you know, we were down in Alabama at the time.

00:27:02.000 He's going to come down to Alabama.

00:27:03.000 You know, you can interview him tomorrow.

00:27:05.000 And we went to this place called Chris's Hot Dog Standard or Chris's Grill, whatever, where Hank Williams made famous.

00:27:11.000 And we're going to do this interview in there.

00:27:15.000 So they said, they got me a rental car, put me in the hotel, and said, we're going to get everything set up.

00:27:22.000 We'll have Jeff here.

00:27:23.000 And we're going to film you when you first come in and meet Jeff.

00:27:27.000 We want to catch that on camera.

00:27:28.000 Then you'll sit down across from him in the booth and interview him.

00:27:31.000 I said, okay, fine.

00:27:33.000 So I go to the hotel, wait for their call.

00:27:36.000 They call, I say, okay, we're ready.

00:27:37.000 So I get in this rental car and I drive to the grill.

00:27:42.000 And when I pull up, I see who looks like Jeff sitting on this bench out front with this girl.

00:27:47.000 So I'm thinking, well, that can't be him because he's supposed to be inside sitting in the booth.

00:27:51.000 So I just sat in the vehicle, you know, looking at him, just trying to figure this out.

00:27:54.000 Maybe he came out for a smoke or something like that.

00:27:56.000 I'm watching him.

00:27:57.000 He's not going inside.

00:27:59.000 So I got out.

00:28:00.000 And when I got out and started walking towards him, I think, you know, that is the dude.

00:28:05.000 I'd never met him, but I knew what he looked like.

00:28:08.000 I said, you know, I wonder why he's out here.

00:28:09.000 So I went over.

00:28:10.000 I said, hey, are you Jeff Scoop?

00:28:11.000 He goes, yeah.

00:28:12.000 I said, I'm Daryl Davis.

00:28:13.000 Shook his hand.

00:28:14.000 He introduced me to his lady friend.

00:28:16.000 And I said, I thought you were supposed to be inside.

00:28:18.000 He goes, well, I wasn't so.

00:28:19.000 I just came out or whatever.

00:28:21.000 So we walk in.

00:28:23.000 Of course, they didn't get the capture the moment that we met.

00:28:26.000 So they're like all freaked out and stuff.

00:28:28.000 And we sat down in the booth and I started interviewing him.

00:28:32.000 And as he pointed out, you know, he was getting along too well with me.

00:28:38.000 You know, just chatting, talking about music and this, that, and the other.

00:28:43.000 And he's saying, you know, he was a musician.

00:28:47.000 I said, I'm a musician.

00:28:48.000 I said, well, what kind of music do you like?

00:28:50.000 What kind of music do you play?

00:28:51.000 Well, I play rock.

00:28:52.000 And I said, well, you know, rock was invented by black musicians.

00:28:56.000 Oh, let's not go there.

00:28:57.000 You know, Elvis Presley invented rock.

00:28:59.000 So no, Elvis did not invent rock, right?

00:29:02.000 I said, Chuck Berry invented rock, right?

00:29:04.000 And he goes, okay, well, you know, you probably know more about music than I do.

00:29:07.000 You know, so but what difference does it make, you know, what color the musician is?

00:29:12.000 I said, well, it doesn't make any difference to me, but obviously it makes a difference to you because, you know, in our history books, we talk about Ben Franklin.

00:29:19.000 Who cares what color Ben Franklin is?

00:29:21.000 You know, if he invented electricity, he invented electricity, right?

00:29:24.000 And he goes, well, yeah, well, I know about the guy who invented peanut butter.

00:29:31.000 I'm serious.

00:29:32.000 And I said, okay, what's his name?

00:29:33.000 He thought about it.

00:29:34.000 He goes, Carver, Carver.

00:29:35.000 I said, what's his first name?

00:29:36.000 He said, George Washington Carver.

00:29:38.000 I said, okay, very good.

00:29:39.000 I shook his hand, right?

00:29:40.000 And so then, what did he say?

00:29:46.000 He runs the NSM, National Socialist Movement.

00:29:49.000 The whole white supremacy ideology is called the movement.

00:29:53.000 So anyway, I said, well, he goes, you know, I said, it's a racist movement.

00:29:58.000 He said, no, it's like a white civil rights movement for white people.

00:30:02.000 He goes, you know, you got the NAACP.

00:30:05.000 And I said, yes.

00:30:06.000 I said, but there are white members of the NAACP.

00:30:10.000 Can I join the NSM?

00:30:11.000 He goes, no.

00:30:13.000 And, you know, I said, well, why not?

00:30:14.000 Well, then it's a racist movement.

00:30:16.000 And then we got into it, and he goes, you know, I will fight to the last bullet for my people.

00:30:21.000 I'm like, whoa.

00:30:22.000 He just kind of like, you know, flipped out here.

00:30:24.000 I said, okay.

00:30:25.000 Did you do that because you were realizing that you were getting a little too friendly with him?

00:30:29.000 Oh, yeah.

00:30:29.000 Yes.

00:30:32.000 That's so funny.

00:30:34.000 Like, I'm keeping my ideology no matter what.

00:30:37.000 Yes.

00:30:38.000 That's funny.

00:30:38.000 You're not going to trick me by me being a cool guy.

00:30:44.000 We laugh about it now, but at the time I was pretty stressed out, I would imagine.

00:30:48.000 Yeah, because I realized it.

00:30:50.000 But you know what?

00:30:51.000 So what year was this?

00:30:52.000 2016.

00:30:53.000 Darrell, what was the first year you came on the podcast?

00:30:53.000 2016.

00:30:56.000 Oh, gosh.

00:31:01.000 Kind of around then, right?

00:31:02.000 Yeah, 15 or 16.

00:31:04.000 Yeah.

00:31:05.000 So how many other different things had you done where he had known about you?

00:31:11.000 Had you done like a lot of different interviews, a lot of different things?

00:31:15.000 Oh, yeah.

00:31:15.000 I've been doing a lot of interviews, magazines, and so you guys were just very aware of anybody who was like fucking up the cause.

00:31:23.000 Yeah.

00:31:24.000 with their awesome personality.

00:31:26.000 I mean, think about it.

00:31:32.000 You're in this movement and you've got a guy that's pulling people out.

00:31:36.000 And he's not just pulling out just anybody.

00:31:38.000 Some of these people are.

00:31:38.000 Grand wizards.

00:31:39.000 Grand wizards.

00:31:40.000 Grand Dragons.

00:31:40.000 Imperial Wizards.

00:31:41.000 Yeah.

00:31:42.000 Wizards and Dragons is fucking hilarious, bro.

00:31:45.000 So after the thing was over, you know, they're meandering around, getting their cameras packed up.

00:31:53.000 I pulled Jeff aside and just talked to him, just one-on-one, man-to-man, no cameras, whatever.

00:32:00.000 We just talked about a couple different things, talked about women and this, that, and the other.

00:32:04.000 And just, you know, what guys talk about.

00:32:07.000 Normal.

00:32:07.000 Yeah.

00:32:08.000 And we exchanged phone numbers.

00:32:11.000 And then the following year, 2017, he was involved in that large white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia that turned deadly.

00:32:23.000 And I knew a lot of the people who were involved in there, including— That was the one when the guy in the car ran over people in the crowd?

00:32:29.000 Yes.

00:32:30.000 And I know the guy who organized that thing.

00:32:32.000 He's been in my house.

00:32:34.000 I've sat down with them.

00:32:35.000 I've been in some of their homes, etc.

00:32:38.000 And I've gotten wind that Jeff was rethinking.

00:32:45.000 I said, you know what, let me stop reading all this stuff and find out for myself.

00:32:49.000 So I found his number that he had given me.

00:32:52.000 And fortunately, he still had the same number.

00:32:54.000 I called him up.

00:32:55.000 And he remembered me, of course, and we chatted on the phone.

00:32:59.000 And then we stayed in contact.

00:33:03.000 And then in 2020, I had a gig up in New York City.

00:33:11.000 And they booked me and said, talk about how you meet these people and what you all talk about and what they think about this.

00:33:19.000 I said, well, wait a minute.

00:33:20.000 I can tell you about how I meet them and how I go about it.

00:33:23.000 But as far as what they think about stuff, I can tell you, but that'll be secondhand.

00:33:27.000 I say, if you want, I can bring people because every now and then I bring a former Klansman that I took out of the movement or whatever to talk, you know, answer questions.

00:33:35.000 I said, well, how about if I just bring somebody?

00:33:37.000 He goes, whoa, you know, we got to clear that with the sponsors or whoever.

00:33:43.000 So they got back to me and said, yeah, you know, who do you want to bring?

00:33:46.000 I said, well, you know, let me give you some options or whatever.

00:33:49.000 So I called Jeff.

00:33:51.000 I said, you know, would you be willing to come out and talk about your experiences, what got you in, what got you out, et cetera.

00:33:57.000 And he said, yeah.

00:33:59.000 So I called him back.

00:34:00.000 I said, okay, I got this guy.

00:34:02.000 He was the commander of the largest neo-Nazi organization in the country for 25 years.

00:34:06.000 He was a 27-year member.

00:34:08.000 And they said, okay, fine.

00:34:11.000 So I called Jeff back and said, okay, you're on, man.

00:34:14.000 They're going to fly you out to New York and you'll come on.

00:34:17.000 And this is the first time we'd ever done anything together like that, where we both are on the same page, right?

00:34:24.000 And it went over very, very well.

00:34:26.000 And that was the last gig either of us had before everything got shut down for COVID.

00:34:32.000 Now, when you said this is an ad by BetterHelp, we have a lot of big holidays coming up.

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00:35:56.000 You're both on the same page.

00:35:58.000 What do you mean by that?

00:35:59.000 Well, both in the same mindset.

00:36:03.000 He's not fighting to the last bullet for his people.

00:36:05.000 He's fighting for all people.

00:36:07.000 He realizes that, you know, what he had experienced for 25, for 25 out of the 27 years he was a member, he no longer wanted to do.

00:36:16.000 And so when exactly was that shift for you?

00:36:19.000 So I broke free from the movement in early in March of 19.

00:36:24.000 But I was going through this process for several years.

00:36:28.000 So typically you want somebody in like the work that we do, we want someone to disengage from the movement and then we work on the de-radicalization part.

00:36:36.000 My journey was backwards.

00:36:38.000 So I'm de-radicalizing while I'm still involved.

00:36:40.000 Now, if somebody would have told me that while I was involved, those would have been fighting words, you know, but it was basically like the mind wasn't catching up with what was going on.

00:36:50.000 So that's when I was starting those last years when I was involved.

00:36:53.000 I'm saying this is a white civil rights group.

00:36:55.000 It's not a hate group.

00:36:56.000 You know, and from the outside looking in, you go, man, this guy's insane.

00:36:59.000 Of course it's a hate group, you know?

00:37:01.000 And I see that now, obviously.

00:37:04.000 Tell them about your girlfriends who told you was a cult.

00:37:06.000 Yeah.

00:37:07.000 So when I was involved, every girl that I was seeing, and I was seeing quite a few different women, just about everyone that if they would come and check out the movement, they would say, whoa, this is like a cult and you're like a cult leader.

00:37:20.000 And I'm thinking in my head, what is wrong with these choices I'm making in women? 1.00

00:37:24.000 What is with these poor choices?

00:37:27.000 You know what I mean?

00:37:28.000 Like that's a serious cognitive dissidence.

00:37:31.000 But that's the thought that goes through your head.

00:37:35.000 It's not me.

00:37:36.000 So was it initially meeting Daryl that started this journey for you?

00:37:41.000 Yes.

00:37:41.000 It was one of the major, major first seeds.

00:37:44.000 And so, but you guys hadn't seen each other quite a while.

00:37:47.000 And then on your own, you just started exploring these ideas and changing your perspective.

00:37:53.000 Well, that.

00:37:54.000 And then not long after meeting Daryl, I met a Muslim filmmaker by the name of Dia Khan in her film, White Right Meeting the Enemy.

00:38:02.000 And I'd gotten to know Dia quite well over the course of that filming.

00:38:05.000 And there was a number of people that left the NSM from interacting with Dia.

00:38:11.000 And she has a very similar approach to how Daryl Davis approaches things.

00:38:15.000 It's about listening.

00:38:16.000 It's about being curious.

00:38:17.000 It's about asking questions and sharing different perspectives.

00:38:21.000 And that curiosity and that sincerity, it can help restructure the way someone thinks and the way they see people.

00:38:32.000 So like Dia says to me, and this is actually in the film White Right Meeting the Enemy, you can see the change.

00:38:39.000 Like I showed a clip a lot of times at my talks and I'll tell the audience, I'll say, take a look at my eyes in that clip because you can see it.

00:38:45.000 The cameraman caught it, zoomed in on my eyes.

00:38:48.000 She's saying, you know, the ideology that you, instead of telling me that I was wrong, she showed me, she says, the ideology that you stand for, the things that you believe in, they made me feel less than ugly, not worthy as a child growing up.

00:39:03.000 That's how your ideology made me feel.

00:39:03.000 That's how I felt.

00:39:06.000 And no one aside from Daryl Davis had ever approached me with anything like that.

00:39:13.000 I was told I was wrong.

00:39:14.000 But that human connection, when you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process.

00:39:20.000 And I'd lost my humanity a long time ago.

00:39:23.000 And what Daryl and Dia did is they cracked that door open, that window to compassion, and I could see their humanity.

00:39:30.000 Daryl did something very similar.

00:39:31.000 He told me about how racism and hate affected him as a child growing up.

00:39:35.000 That hurt.

00:39:36.000 That hurt.

00:39:37.000 You know, I mean, I'm not going to say it at the time when I'm still in the movie, but on the inside, it really hurt.

00:39:42.000 That bothered me.

00:39:43.000 It's like, this is not this noble, grand cause that I believed it was if it's causing that kind of pain and suffering to other people.

00:39:50.000 So, what were the steps that you had to take before you were ready to leave the move?

00:39:55.000 I hate to try everything, and I beat myself up over that a lot.

00:39:59.000 But I kept saying, it's a white civil rights group.

00:40:02.000 I'm telling every press outlet I'm sitting down with when they're in it, don't call us a Nazi group.

00:40:07.000 It's a white civil rights organization.

00:40:08.000 Of course, most of them wouldn't publish that because it is what it is.

00:40:12.000 But I'm going through these different changes.

00:40:14.000 I'm having rules put into the organization where the last couple years they changed from the swastika in the public view to using an old runic symbol, the Odol rune.

00:40:25.000 Today, they switch back.

00:40:27.000 They use the swastika again.

00:40:29.000 But I was doing things like that to try to change the image of the group.

00:40:32.000 As my own beliefs were shifting, I was trying to shift that into the party.

00:40:36.000 And eventually, I was like, because as a man, I thought, I'm going to fix this.

00:40:39.000 I've got to fix this, this mistake that I made, this terrible movement.

00:40:46.000 I've got to fix it.

00:40:47.000 And there's no fixing it.

00:40:48.000 All I was doing was putting lipstick on a pig, you know, dressing up the Nazi party, trying to make it look pretty. 0.88

00:40:52.000 It still is what it is.

00:40:54.000 So eventually, after 2019 rolls around, I was like, I just have to, I have to get away from this.

00:41:01.000 This is not right.

00:41:02.000 I can't.

00:41:03.000 And what was the response within the movement when you left?

00:41:07.000 Not so good.

00:41:08.000 Not so good.

00:41:09.000 You can leave these organizations.

00:41:11.000 And it depends.

00:41:12.000 Different groups operate different ways.

00:41:14.000 What I was involved in was above ground, so it was mostly legal.

00:41:19.000 You've got underground groups that operate a little bit differently.

00:41:22.000 They'll come after you and things like that.

00:41:24.000 You can leave, but if you walk away and you speak out against it, you're deemed like a traitor, basically, to that cause.

00:41:31.000 So I knew that was going to happen when I started speaking out.

00:41:34.000 So I didn't speak out immediately, but by the end of late 2019, it was August or September of 19, I started speaking out and denounced the movement, denounced racism.

00:41:45.000 So this is before you did that event with Daryl.

00:41:48.000 Yeah.

00:41:48.000 Oh, yeah.

00:41:49.000 By that time, I was already out.

00:41:50.000 And so how were you denouncing the movement and where were you doing this?

00:41:54.000 I did a press release and a website and made it public because that would be seen and understood.

00:42:02.000 Now, were you concerned at all about retaliation?

00:42:06.000 About you being attacked or them coming for you?

00:42:09.000 You know, there's always those concerns, but I don't try to dwell on those things.

00:42:14.000 You know, I was in a high-stress, dangerous environment for a lot of years.

00:42:18.000 So this is just another kind of high-stress environment.

00:42:21.000 But I don't want people to be afraid to leave.

00:42:25.000 There's no reason to be afraid to leave.

00:42:27.000 I mean, obviously, you've got to be aware of your surroundings and wise to it, but I'm always prepared.

00:42:34.000 And when you were leaving and when you were on your way out and changing your ideas about the movement and then leaving, did anybody come with you?

00:42:43.000 A lot of people came with me.

00:42:45.000 The National Socialist Movement was the largest neo-Nazi organization of its kind when I left.

00:42:50.000 Today it's quite small.

00:42:52.000 It's barely hanging on.

00:42:54.000 People in this movement began emailing me, people I didn't even know, and asked me, is this true?

00:43:00.000 Because he'd mentioned my name or whatever else.

00:43:03.000 And I said, yeah.

00:43:04.000 Next thing you know, they're leaving.

00:43:05.000 And I'd call him.

00:43:06.000 I'd say, you know, do you know so-and-so?

00:43:08.000 Yeah, he was in my movement.

00:43:10.000 I said, well, he called me, or he emailed me and wants to get out.

00:43:14.000 Wow.

00:43:15.000 So how many people do you think left?

00:43:17.000 Oh, hundreds left.

00:43:18.000 Hundreds left.

00:43:20.000 How many are in?

00:43:22.000 How big is the movement in total?

00:43:24.000 We never had a solid number on it, but over the years, I could tell you there were thousands and thousands of people that were involved.

00:43:24.000 Roughly.

00:43:30.000 And then, you know, we would work with other organizations.

00:43:33.000 So I spoke at Klan functions, skinhead functions, other white nationalist organizations' functions.

00:43:39.000 So because I was that high-profile in that world, and I was the most high-profile white nationalist to ever walk away in the United States.

00:43:50.000 So I felt like denounce.

00:43:52.000 Denounce.

00:43:53.000 And shit, completely shift your perspective.

00:43:56.000 So I felt like I needed to do something right to make up for the damage that I had done.

00:44:00.000 And this is one way to do it, is to help other people break free and get out of that world.

00:44:06.000 And so is this a continual process?

00:44:07.000 Do other people from the movement now start to read your stuff and see you speak and then leave as well?

00:44:13.000 And you also have a book out, just tell everybody.

00:44:15.000 It's called American Nazi from Hate to Humanity. 0.56

00:44:19.000 And there it is.

00:44:21.000 Did you do an audio version of this?

00:44:23.000 It's in the works.

00:44:24.000 Yeah, it's not out yet.

00:44:24.000 Okay.

00:44:26.000 So do more people continue to reach out to you that are in the movement because of this and try to get out as well?

00:44:32.000 Absolutely.

00:44:32.000 And we're helping people all the time.

00:44:34.000 Daryl and I both are helping people all the time get out.

00:44:37.000 And it's because of that presence that I had there.

00:44:41.000 A lot of people will say, you know, I knew him then or I knew of him.

00:44:47.000 So they'll feel comfortable in reaching out.

00:44:49.000 So it's kind of like street cred, I guess, you know, like if you were an alcoholic for 20 years and you have more of an ability to help other people else.

00:44:58.000 And another thing, you know, people like Jeff and people of that status, the high status, it takes, while they may change themselves, it takes them a while to figure out if they can leave because that's their job.

00:45:15.000 In Jeff's case, that was his job for 25 out of the 27 years he was a member to lead that organization and build it and recruit and bring people in.

00:45:25.000 He brought in numerous people.

00:45:27.000 So number one, how do you go back to those people and say, I was wrong?

00:45:32.000 You got all this power.

00:45:32.000 Everybody looks up to you.

00:45:34.000 You're their leader, right?

00:45:35.000 Their cult leader, your girlfriends would tell you.

00:45:40.000 Thanks, Daryl.

00:45:43.000 But so, you know, that weighs on you.

00:45:46.000 And then, you know, that is your full-time job while you're in there.

00:45:51.000 You know, the money you make is from selling Nazi merchandise, t-shirts, you know, armbands, you know, whatever else you have, medallions, et cetera.

00:46:01.000 So now you're leaving.

00:46:04.000 How are you going to pay your bills?

00:46:05.000 How are you going to support your family?

00:46:08.000 All that kind of thing.

00:46:09.000 You need a job.

00:46:10.000 Well, you're not trained in anything else, number one.

00:46:12.000 And then what are you going to put on your resume when you go to apply for a job?

00:46:16.000 I was a Nazi leader for the last 25 years.

00:46:19.000 So all of that weighs on you.

00:46:22.000 And so you need some kind of outside support, which is a lot of stuff that I provide.

00:46:28.000 Because you talk to somebody and you give them another perspective and they leave.

00:46:32.000 You can't just leave them swinging in the wind and you go on about your business.

00:46:36.000 Because they have to belong to something or enter into society.

00:46:42.000 And they can't go back.

00:46:44.000 They've already betrayed their quote-unquote family.

00:46:48.000 So they're going to find something else to get into unless you provide that kind of support.

00:46:53.000 And what support do you provide them?

00:46:55.000 The shoulder to talk to, connect them.

00:46:58.000 I brought him to New York, had him speak to crowds.

00:47:01.000 And an interesting thing happened.

00:47:03.000 I want you to tell the story about Duke.

00:47:08.000 Show him to other people.

00:47:09.000 Let him know, hey, Daryl Davis is not an exception.

00:47:13.000 Because what I need to do, I find oftentimes is when I become friends with these people, the mentality becomes, Daryl's okay for a black guy.

00:47:25.000 It's all those other black people or all those other Jewish people, that kind of thing.

00:47:30.000 So when I feel I can trust that individual, they're not going to bring harm.

00:47:36.000 I'm not concerned about myself, but I know that they're not going to bring harm to friends of mine or other people.

00:47:42.000 Then I will invite them to my home, invite some of my Jewish friends, some of my other black friends, some of my white friends who look just like them but don't agree with them. 0.94

00:47:51.000 So that way they can see I'm not the exception.

00:47:54.000 Maybe they are the exception because now they're being exposed to people who think the same way I do.

00:48:00.000 Right.

00:48:00.000 Now, were you doing that for money?

00:48:03.000 Were you running the movement?

00:48:04.000 Was that your job job?

00:48:06.000 Or did you have another job as well?

00:48:08.000 For a lot of years, I was basically running the record label of the movement, and that was my job as well.

00:48:14.000 Oh, the movement has a record label?

00:48:16.000 White Power Rocked. 0.64

00:48:17.000 Yeah.

00:48:17.000 Oh, Christ.

00:48:18.000 Yeah, so that was my job, yeah.

00:48:23.000 So you got to find another job, too.

00:48:25.000 And you have to find a job where they're willing to hire a Nazi.

00:48:25.000 Yeah.

00:48:29.000 Former Nazi.

00:48:30.000 Recently.

00:48:30.000 Former.

00:48:31.000 Get it right, Joe.

00:48:32.000 Come on, Joe.

00:48:33.000 I mean, it's tough on a resume.

00:48:33.000 Recently, though.

00:48:35.000 Yeah.

00:48:36.000 What did you wind up doing for work?

00:48:39.000 It was tough.

00:48:40.000 It was tough for a while.

00:48:41.000 Now I help get people out of extremist groups.

00:48:44.000 I speak all over the country, all over the world.

00:48:47.000 I've spoke at, I've been at Nobel with the Nobel Peace Center with Diacon.

00:48:51.000 I just got back from Australia, did a book tour over there, spoke at Combat Anti-Semitism Movement.

00:48:58.000 Today I do a lot of work with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, educating young people.

00:49:03.000 I've done stuff even with the government, U.S. government.

00:49:08.000 I've advised other governments as well on extremism.

00:49:11.000 So this is what I do now.

00:49:14.000 What did you do right away, though?

00:49:16.000 Like, what was the first things you did?

00:49:17.000 I really had to do a lot of self-work, a lot of processing.

00:49:24.000 It was that.

00:49:25.000 But like, what did you do to make a living?

00:49:27.000 I was living off of my savings.

00:49:27.000 I didn't.

00:49:30.000 Yeah.

00:49:31.000 Are you familiar with Simon Wiesenthal?

00:49:33.000 Yes.

00:49:34.000 Okay.

00:49:35.000 So Jeff now works with the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

00:49:39.000 That's a complete 180.

00:49:40.000 You know, he was the most famous Nazi hunter.

00:49:42.000 I knew Simon Wiesenthal.

00:49:44.000 Yeah, I've been doing this for like 45 years.

00:49:44.000 Oh, really?

00:49:47.000 And back in the 1980s, I went to Vienna, Austria, which is where he lives, and I had dinner with Simon Wiesenthal.

00:49:53.000 Yeah, and picked his brain.

00:49:53.000 Wow.

00:49:56.000 Wow.

00:49:56.000 How old was he back then?

00:49:58.000 He was old back then.

00:49:59.000 Yeah, I'm not sure how old he was.

00:50:01.000 He was probably maybe in his 70s, maybe.

00:50:04.000 You know a fun fact?

00:50:06.000 If Werner von Braun, the head guy from NASA that got us to the moon, if he was alive today, the Simon Wiesenthal Center said they would prosecute him for crimes against humanity.

00:50:16.000 Wow, I did not know that.

00:50:18.000 Yeah, he was a legit Nazi. 0.50

00:50:20.000 Yeah, Operation Paperclip.

00:50:21.000 The United States brought over all the best Nazi rocket scientists to structure our rocket program. 1.00

00:50:29.000 Yeah.

00:50:30.000 Fun fact.

00:50:31.000 A lot of people don't know that, but that's true, yeah.

00:50:34.000 Well, they all had those dueling scars on their faces, too.

00:50:36.000 So when I got Jeff to do the thing up in New York, he asked me, you know, is this open to the public?

00:50:45.000 And I said, yeah, you know, anybody can come.

00:50:48.000 And he goes, yeah, I'm inviting a friend of mine who lives in New York.

00:50:53.000 He was my chief of security, you know, while I was in the movement.

00:50:58.000 And now he's out.

00:51:00.000 And so you go ahead and tell that.

00:51:02.000 This is an amazing story.

00:51:03.000 Right.

00:51:04.000 So it's okay to say his name because he's public out with it.

00:51:08.000 But this is Duke Schneider.

00:51:10.000 He was my chief of security for a long time.

00:51:12.000 And he had left the movement before I did.

00:51:14.000 And his story was, you know, it's a love, conquer, hate story.

00:51:18.000 So he had some kind of thyroid issues, cancer in his thyroid, and he was in the hospital.

00:51:24.000 And his father's nurse was a woman by the name of Catherine.

00:51:30.000 She's an African-American lady. 1.00

00:51:32.000 And she was there with Duke in the hospital.

00:51:35.000 And he's like, Catherine, you don't have to stay here at the hospital with me.

00:51:38.000 You can leave.

00:51:40.000 I might be here for a while.

00:51:41.000 And she says, I'm not leaving your side.

00:51:43.000 I'm going to be here in this hospital until you walk up out of here and you're better.

00:51:47.000 I'm going to stay here.

00:51:48.000 So don't argue with me.

00:51:49.000 I'm going to be here.

00:51:51.000 And at that moment, Duke looks to her and he says, when I walk up out of this hospital and get better, I'm going to marry you.

00:51:59.000 And they have been married ever since.

00:52:01.000 And this is one of the, I mean, this couple, if you see them, you'd swear they just like high school sweethearts.

00:52:06.000 They're just amazing, amazing people.

00:52:09.000 There's Duke Schneider, yes.

00:52:11.000 That's crazy.

00:52:13.000 Wow.

00:52:16.000 So, you know, this goes to show, Joe, I mean, we all, you, Jeff, me, anybody we know, when we were kids, were told a tiger does not change its stripes.

00:52:25.000 A leopard does not change its spots.

00:52:26.000 That's who they are.

00:52:28.000 And that is true.

00:52:29.000 You know, so why would we think that a Nazi or neo-Nazi or a Klansman would change their robe and hood or their swastika armband or something?

00:52:36.000 Well, that's where we're wrong.

00:52:38.000 The stripes and spots on the tiger and lion are immutable characteristics.

00:52:43.000 They're born with those.

00:52:44.000 They can't change them.

00:52:46.000 But the Klan robe and hood and the swastika are acquired.

00:52:50.000 That's learned behavior.

00:52:52.000 And what can be learned can be unlearned.

00:52:55.000 Jeff is an example of that.

00:52:56.000 Duke Schneider is an example of that.

00:52:58.000 And when I first got into wanting to meet these people, I wasn't trying to get anybody out.

00:53:05.000 And I still don't really try to get people out.

00:53:09.000 I just want an answer to that question that plagued me from the age of 10.

00:53:13.000 How can you hate me if you don't even know me?

00:53:14.000 Just tell me that, and then you go your way, I go my way.

00:53:18.000 But what happened was, during the conversation, you start off this far apart on the ideological spectrum.

00:53:24.000 You talk to somebody for five minutes.

00:53:26.000 That gap narrows because you found something in common.

00:53:29.000 You keep on talking, now you're here.

00:53:31.000 You found more in common.

00:53:32.000 At this point, you're having a cordial relationship with your adversary.

00:53:36.000 You know, you might not be going out to dinner with him or whatever, but you're having a cordial relationship.

00:53:40.000 Keep on talking, and you found more in common.

00:53:44.000 And now it's like a friendship.

00:53:45.000 You don't agree on everything, but you have found more in common that you have in contrast.

00:53:50.000 And the trivial things that you found in contrast, like skin color or whether you go to a church, a synagogue, a mosque, or a temple, began to matter less and less because it's caused a cognitive dissonance.

00:54:01.000 And so when the first person left, I thought, well, this person, this is a fluke.

00:54:07.000 This guy probably wasn't invested in it fully.

00:54:10.000 But then it happened again and again and again.

00:54:13.000 And I thought, okay, well, now, something I must be doing when I'm interviewing these people.

00:54:17.000 This is back when I was writing my first book.

00:54:20.000 What am I doing?

00:54:21.000 And I narrowed it down to about five core values that everybody wants.

00:54:26.000 Between traveling with my parents as a child in the U.S. State Department, Foreign Service, as diplomats, and now traveling as an adult musician and lecturer.

00:54:37.000 I told you before, I've been to all 50 states.

00:54:39.000 I've been to 64 countries on six continents.

00:54:42.000 And I can tell you this, no matter how far I've gone from our country, right next door to Canada, right next door to Mexico, or halfway around the globe, no matter who I meet maybe around the world, they don't look like me or speak my language or worship as I do or not worship at all. 0.89

00:54:57.000 I've always concluded that every person I've met is a human being.

00:55:01.000 And as such, every human being wants these five core values in their lives.

00:55:06.000 Everyone wants to be loved.

00:55:08.000 We all want to be respected.

00:55:09.000 We want to be heard.

00:55:11.000 We want to be treated fairly and truthfully.

00:55:13.000 And we want the same things for our family as anybody else would want for their family.

00:55:17.000 And if we can learn to apply those five core values or any of those five values, when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we're unfamiliar or uncomfortable, I'll guarantee you that your navigation of that society, that culture, that situation will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive.

00:55:40.000 And so that's what was happening because these people have been interviewed before, but they didn't leave.

00:55:45.000 So that, you know, is how you talk to people, more so than what you say to people and how you listen to them, you know.

00:55:52.000 And when I say respect, it doesn't mean that I respect what they're saying.

00:55:57.000 I'm respecting their right to say it, right?

00:56:00.000 Right.

00:56:00.000 And so I think, you know, that's been one of the key things that worked with Jeff and worked with other people.

00:56:06.000 And when it started happening more and more, I realized I stumbled onto something and I needed to keep doing this.

00:56:12.000 And that's why I'm still doing it today.

00:56:15.000 And Jeff and I go out, you know, oftentimes.

00:56:18.000 You know, we just came back from Indianapolis a few weeks ago.

00:56:21.000 We were in Orlando speaking to the Holocaust Center there and wherever else.

00:56:26.000 When you look back on your life and you think about the enormous amount of time that you spent in the movement and now being essentially of a completely different mindset, like what does that feel like for you when you look back on yourself?

00:56:42.000 It's like two different people.

00:56:43.000 So like a lot of times when I'll speak about that life, I'll say that was my past life.

00:56:49.000 You know, I know it's not my past life, it's still the same life.

00:56:51.000 But it is like looking back at a different person.

00:56:55.000 Like when I started doing work with the Wiesenthal Center, one of the things was after talks, a lot of people in the Jewish community were like, I don't get it.

00:57:05.000 You're such a nice guy.

00:57:06.000 I don't get it.

00:57:06.000 It doesn't make sense.

00:57:07.000 So we started showing video clips of my speeches and things that I did when I was in the movement ahead of those things.

00:57:15.000 And I was always, and then people were like, oh, now I get it.

00:57:19.000 You know, because they could see it.

00:57:20.000 They could see how different that was and how different the person is.

00:57:24.000 Not the person, nice guy that they met, but that's who I was.

00:57:29.000 So, and I and I always try to get out of showing those clips.

00:57:32.000 I'm like, could I be backstage or somewhere else?

00:57:35.000 Because I don't want to look at it.

00:57:36.000 Like, it's hard to, I mean, I can look at it.

00:57:38.000 Obviously, I do it all the time, but it's tough.

00:57:40.000 It's tough because it's like, man, does it feel shame?

00:57:43.000 Shame, guilt.

00:57:46.000 You just feel terrible about it.

00:57:48.000 So I think that drives the work, a lot of the work that I'm doing now is to help others and to repair some of that damage that's been done.

00:57:56.000 Well, I think your perspective is very important for people to understand that someone can shift their mindset.

00:58:05.000 And that just because someone has a hateful, evil ideology they've attached themselves to, doesn't mean they're a hateful, evil person inherently.

00:58:15.000 It's learned behavior, learned thinking.

00:58:18.000 And this is the problem with human beings, is we're incredibly malleable.

00:58:22.000 You know, human beings are, we follow the leader and we adopt ideologies and we're also very tribal.

00:58:31.000 So you become a part of a group, whether you call it a family or a team or whatever, you hate the other people because they're the enemy now.

00:58:39.000 It's us against them and we're all in this together and that unites everybody that's a part of the movement and it makes you feel like you're a part of something bigger.

00:58:47.000 Yep.

00:58:48.000 Yeah, it's a trap.

00:58:49.000 It's a terrible trap and it's a trap that human beings can easily fall into.

00:58:53.000 And you see it with political ideologies, you see it with religion.

00:58:57.000 You see it with everything.

00:58:59.000 I mean, people just, we are very tribal, and that can manifest itself in some very disgusting thinking.

00:59:08.000 I want to add something to that.

00:59:10.000 I think you're 100% right for the most part, but the tribal thing never, never came into play with me, and nor did it come into play with other people who were raised the way I did.

00:59:25.000 I was.

00:59:28.000 I first started traveling abroad overseas at the age of three in 1961.

00:59:33.000 I was born in 58, so I'm 67 now.

00:59:36.000 And my first introduction to school was abroad.

00:59:40.000 The State Department assigns you to the American embassy in some foreign country for two years.

00:59:44.000 And then you come back home at the end of the two years.

00:59:46.000 You're here for a few months, maybe a year, and then you're back over to another foreign country for two years, back and forth, back and forth.

00:59:52.000 My dad's job as a U.S. diplomat was to foster better relations between a foreign country and our U.S. government, right?

00:59:59.000 So, which is why, you know, we're overseas.

01:00:01.000 So, my first introduction to school was abroad.

01:00:04.000 I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries.

01:00:10.000 The in-between grades I would do back home here, right?

01:00:15.000 My classmates abroad, now we're talking about the 1960s, my classmates abroad were from all over the world.

01:00:22.000 Because anybody who had an embassy stationed where we had our American embassy, all of their kids went to the same school.

01:00:29.000 So, this little girl sitting at this little desk here might have been from Czechoslovakia, that kid from Nigeria, that kid from Italy, that kid from Japan.

01:00:36.000 You know, if you open the door to my classroom and look in, you would say, oh, you know, this is a United Nations of Little Children.

01:00:41.000 That's exactly what it was.

01:00:43.000 That became my baseline for what school was supposed to be.

01:00:47.000 But every time I'd come home, I would either be in all black schools or black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated.

01:00:56.000 And just because desegregation was passed four years before I was born in 1954 by the Supreme Court, schools did not integrate overnight.

01:01:04.000 It took years and years.

01:01:05.000 And even in some places today, in 2025, this country is still struggling with integration, right?

01:01:11.000 So that became my norm, you know, this multicultural thing.

01:01:16.000 I didn't know tribes.

01:01:18.000 Everybody was part of my tribe.

01:01:19.000 And that's why I didn't understand racism.

01:01:22.000 Because, you know, now if I had grown up here my whole life and my first experience with somebody who did not look like me was having bottles and rocks thrown at me at the age of 10 in a parade, maybe I wouldn't be doing this work today.

01:01:35.000 Maybe I would be, oh, I'm going to stay away from those color of people. 1.00

01:01:38.000 Right.

01:01:39.000 You know, that kind of thing.

01:01:40.000 So I didn't know tribalization simply because of my growing up experience.

01:01:45.000 Very unique experience.

01:01:47.000 Exactly.

01:01:47.000 And most Americans didn't have that.

01:01:49.000 Now, today, you know, and back then, you know, you buy your kids, you're talking about 1960s, you buy your kids dolls.

01:01:57.000 I had G.I. Joe dolls, right?

01:01:59.000 You know, I don't have any siblings, but my friends, you know, they have Barbie dolls.

01:02:04.000 And back then, all the G.I. Joes were white. 0.96

01:02:06.000 All the Barbie dolls were white.

01:02:09.000 So black kids had to play with little white dolls. 1.00

01:02:11.000 There was nothing that looked like them.

01:02:13.000 Today you have all kinds of color of dolls and nationalities and ethnicities, which broadens the scope of these children.

01:02:22.000 So when they see the real deal walking down the street, well, that's my favorite doll.

01:02:27.000 So I'm okay with that person, rather than you reinforce that tribalism by buying your kids the dolls that look like you and your parents.

01:02:37.000 Yeah, well, that makes sense, and it also sets you up to be uniquely qualified to do what you do.

01:02:42.000 You know, like as a person who did grow up around so many different people.

01:02:47.000 So I try to share that, I guess, you know, vicariously with people.

01:02:51.000 Jeff, did you grow up around, I mean, other than when you moved to Detroit, were you around mostly white people?

01:02:59.000 Yeah, so growing, where I grew up is like in the middle of the cornfield, basically.

01:03:03.000 I grew up in a little town when it was barely a thousand people, all white, basically.

01:03:08.000 The only interactions you had with other races was typically in the summertime, like when farm workers would come up from Mexico and things like that.

01:03:16.000 And a lot of times people just didn't talk to them.

01:03:18.000 So I didn't really have any, hardly any interactions with people of other races.

01:03:23.000 So where did the negative ideas about other races come from?

01:03:27.000 The movement.

01:03:28.000 It came from the movement.

01:03:29.000 All from the movement.

01:03:30.000 Not from personal experience.

01:03:31.000 Nope, I did not have bad personal experiences.

01:03:33.000 In fact, even to this day, most of the bad personal experience I had with other people, I mean, I've had assassination attempts, I've got scars from attacks, all white people. 1.00

01:03:44.000 And this is assassinating that iron.

01:03:46.000 Is this post-leaving or during?

01:03:48.000 During.

01:03:49.000 Why are they trying to kill you?

01:03:51.000 Well, Antifa tried to get me to scar across the back of my head was from tire iron.

01:03:57.000 What happened there?

01:03:59.000 It was they infiltrated the organization, and we had went to a, and this is in my book, American Nazi, by the way, but we had went to Rochester, Minnesota, and to pass out leaflets.

01:04:13.000 And it was myself and my roommate, and then two other guys that had infiltrated.

01:04:18.000 And at the end of the night, to make a long story short, I'm reaching into the trunk of a car, and as I'm reaching down into the trunk of the car to pick up this box of merchandise from the record label, The guy pulls out a tire iron and smashes me across the back of the head and says, we're here to kill you.

01:04:38.000 And it felt like being scalped.

01:04:43.000 The whole back of my head was scalp was hanging down.

01:04:46.000 And I just, I wouldn't get knocked out.

01:04:48.000 I would have been killed if I would have been knocked out.

01:04:50.000 I just remember stumbling, putting my hand across the back of my head, and it felt like a wet sponge and just kind of staggering.

01:04:57.000 And my roommate blocked another hit because the guy tried to hit me again because I didn't go down.

01:05:02.000 And by that time, I'm just kind of, you know, stunned, staggering, concussion, whatever you want to call it, and started stumbling into traffic in the middle of the street.

01:05:12.000 And then, you know, he had gotten away from the guy and pulled me off to the other side of the street.

01:05:17.000 And yeah, that was one incident.

01:05:21.000 So there's multiple times people try to kill you?

01:05:23.000 I've been shot at.

01:05:25.000 Yeah.

01:05:25.000 And this is all...

01:05:26.000 I've had a stabbing...

01:05:27.000 People try to stab me too.

01:05:28.000 This is also why you're in the movement.

01:05:30.000 Oh, yeah.

01:05:30.000 And who was shooting at you?

01:05:32.000 Gangs.

01:05:35.000 Yeah.

01:05:36.000 So people that had just found out that you guys were Nazis and they just tried to shoot you?

01:05:40.000 Well, we were, I mean, we were wearing the symbols everywhere.

01:05:42.000 Like, I mean, flight jackets with swastika patches and stuff like that.

01:05:46.000 So, I mean, that was going to be, that was pretty volatile, especially in different neighborhoods.

01:05:52.000 When you talk to other people that have left the movement, do they have, like, is there a pivotal moment in a lot of these people's lives where they realize that this was the wrong path?

01:06:04.000 Is it an accumulation of other people's experiences that they take into consideration?

01:06:10.000 Like, what is it?

01:06:11.000 Is there a main factor?

01:06:13.000 It really is different for everybody, but usually it doesn't happen like a snap of a finger.

01:06:18.000 You know, like, I could, you know, like we were talking about hundreds of people that have left the movement.

01:06:22.000 I can think of just like on one hand, the people that have left over like one act of kindness or one simple thing.

01:06:29.000 Very few people do that.

01:06:30.000 It's usually a process.

01:06:31.000 So they're going through this shift in thinking, kind of like I was, and they're questioning it.

01:06:37.000 They're questioning, like, well, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance.

01:06:41.000 There's a lot of confirmation bias that takes place.

01:06:43.000 And they're having experiences sometimes with people of other races that helps, you know, where it doesn't fit the narrative of the movement, what's being spewed.

01:06:52.000 So they're fighting with this in their head for a long time.

01:06:56.000 For different people, it's different things.

01:06:57.000 Sometimes it's just seeing the humanity in the people that you once dehumanized.

01:07:05.000 Daryl, this is such a heavy path you're on.

01:07:08.000 Does it, I know it must feel very rewarding, but interacting with so many people that have been indoctrinated into hate, does it sometimes feel overwhelming?

01:07:23.000 No, it doesn't.

01:07:25.000 I mean, I've had some disappointments, you know, people, not everybody's going to change.

01:07:30.000 You know, on either side, black, white, you know.

01:07:30.000 Right.

01:07:33.000 Have you had people that were close?

01:07:34.000 They were close to shifting and they fell back in their own ways?

01:07:37.000 Yeah, it's like alcoholics who fall off the wagon.

01:07:40.000 You know, that kind of thing.

01:07:41.000 But I've had some who I never thought would change.

01:07:43.000 I mean, there'll be people on all sides who will go to their graves being hateful, violent, racist, whatever, anti-Semitic.

01:07:51.000 But even some of those I've had come back and change.

01:07:55.000 But I know not all would do it.

01:07:57.000 Some just die hard, you know.

01:07:59.000 They're not going to change for anything.

01:08:02.000 And so I don't give up on those people, but I move them down my list of priorities and deal with the ones who are open to talking.

01:08:10.000 Even though they're just as hateful and violent and racist or whatever, if they will talk, there's an opportunity to plant a seed.

01:08:17.000 The seed's not going to bloom overnight, you know?

01:08:20.000 So when it happens, great.

01:08:23.000 Then I move my way down to the ones who didn't want to talk to me or we got into some kind of scuffle or whatever, things like that.

01:08:32.000 But as I was telling you before, when their buddies change and they see that life improve, sometimes it's a wake-up call for them.

01:08:42.000 Because initially they think there's nothing this black guy can do that's going to help them.

01:08:47.000 Who the hell is he?

01:08:48.000 To think to even think, you know, I'm the superior one.

01:08:50.000 He's the inferior one.

01:08:53.000 But when they compare their life to their buddy's life, and now he's superior, he's living superiorly and getting along fine, you know, I want that.

01:09:02.000 So now they come around.

01:09:04.000 And for some people, it's something staggering.

01:09:07.000 You know, like I can think of, I'm just thinking of a couple of the cases that I've worked on.

01:09:10.000 And like one guy, his son committed suicide and he had brought his whole family into the movement.

01:09:15.000 And he felt like it was the ideology that did that.

01:09:17.000 And that's what helped shift him.

01:09:19.000 And this was a lifelong guy.

01:09:21.000 Like this guy's in his 60s.

01:09:23.000 You know, he'd been in forever.

01:09:24.000 I would have never, like Daryl said, never, you never think some people are going to change.

01:09:27.000 And he changed.

01:09:29.000 And there's another family that I helped out this last year, and they've got 11 kids under the age of 18.

01:09:34.000 And they started, for them, it was seeing how it was affecting their children.

01:09:40.000 Some of them have disabilities and things like that, and they were seeing how the quality of life, being involved in this, it's heavy.

01:09:52.000 It's a great burden.

01:09:53.000 And it's not something that you wish on your children.

01:09:55.000 It's not something that you want them to move forward with.

01:09:58.000 So for them, it was seeing how their children were affected.

01:10:01.000 Well, having children also just changes your understanding of people.

01:10:05.000 You start realizing, like, babies learn from their environment, and they're all, you know, really innocent.

01:10:12.000 They come out of the womb, just innocent children. 0.99

01:10:14.000 And you see them grow up and evolve.

01:10:16.000 And you realize how much of what makes you a human being is just learned behavior.

01:10:24.000 Daryl, you're still a working musician.

01:10:28.000 So how much of your time is dedicated to helping people leave these movements?

01:10:34.000 It seems pretty significant.

01:10:35.000 Yeah, it's really flipped around a lot.

01:10:37.000 You know, when I first started this, it was like maybe 75% music, 25% other, you know, this work.

01:10:45.000 But now it's probably the exact opposite now.

01:10:49.000 I just take the gigs that I want to do.

01:10:51.000 You know, if it's something, you know, that I feel like playing, I'll take it.

01:10:55.000 I've turned down more gigs in the last few years than I have accepted.

01:11:00.000 And does this feel right to you, or do you sometimes wish that someone else would carry the baton?

01:11:08.000 Well, you know, I wish people would carry the baton and improve upon what, you know, what I've done.

01:11:14.000 I'm just one person, and there's always room for improvement.

01:11:20.000 Somebody can, you know, take my template and make amends to it or whatever.

01:11:24.000 I would hope people would be inspired to do that.

01:11:26.000 And there have been some.

01:11:28.000 But I mean, would you rather have more time for your music?

01:11:31.000 Like, that's...

01:11:33.000 Well, I'll put it this way.

01:11:34.000 Music is my profession, for sure.

01:11:36.000 But improving race relations is my obsession.

01:11:39.000 And I would much rather, much rather be on stage playing my piano with my band, seeing people smiling and dancing and clapping their hands than going to a Klan rally and watching people in robes and hoods march around at Burning Cross yelling, white power.

01:11:56.000 You laugh, but that's what I do.

01:11:58.000 I know.

01:12:00.000 It's crazy that you do that and have any feeling of safety while you're there.

01:12:07.000 Well, I mean, there are people who don't want me there and they resent it and they get into it with their leaders and their leaders end up banishing them and stuff.

01:12:16.000 But Jeff can tell you, you know, because he's been to a lot of Klan things as well as his own organization, it's run kind of like a paramilitary.

01:12:24.000 So you have two kinds of rallies.

01:12:26.000 You have public rallies and you have private rallies.

01:12:29.000 So a public rally is, you know, you want to have your Klan rally or your Nazi rally over here in the park on Main Street.

01:12:36.000 So you've got to go to City Hall or wherever and apply for a permit, right?

01:12:39.000 That's public rally, public park.

01:12:41.000 So anybody can come.

01:12:42.000 You can come, I can come, whatever.

01:12:44.000 Now, if there's potential for violence or whatever, there's going to be a barricade of police in between the ralliers and the protesters.

01:12:52.000 So they can't meet each other.

01:12:54.000 Right?

01:12:54.000 You can yell and scream over the police head, right?

01:12:58.000 But if it's in some rural place, like he's talking about in rural Minnesota, you know, anybody, everybody can go.

01:13:04.000 There's not a whole lot of police presence.

01:13:06.000 It's mostly white people.

01:13:09.000 But if it's a private rally, it's on private property.

01:13:13.000 One of the members might have a farm.

01:13:15.000 Okay, you know, we can have the rally on my farm.

01:13:17.000 Well, you just can't walk onto somebody's farm unless you're invited.

01:13:21.000 So you have to be invited by one of the higher-ups.

01:13:23.000 In his case, the commander, in the Klan case, the Imperial Wizard or the Grand Dragon. 0.79

01:13:28.000 And so it's like Assimon says, if the leader invites somebody, then all the members have to respect that you don't bother that person, whether you like it or not.

01:13:41.000 Otherwise, you'll suffer some consequences.

01:13:43.000 And why would those leaders invite you?

01:13:46.000 Curiosity.

01:13:47.000 I treated them fairly.

01:13:48.000 I applied those five core values.

01:13:50.000 I'm writing a book.

01:13:52.000 I need to know what goes on at a rally.

01:13:54.000 You all say, you know, you don't do anything malicious or whatever.

01:13:58.000 Well, show me.

01:13:59.000 Let me come see the rally.

01:14:00.000 Like, if you're going to write a book on football, you can go to the library and get tons of books and research it and write it and have never gone to a football game.

01:14:09.000 Right?

01:14:09.000 Okay, but if you really want to, you know, write an accurate one and from personal experience, you need to go see a football game.

01:14:16.000 So how am I going to write a book on the Klan from A to Z without ever seeing a Klan rally?

01:14:21.000 So that's why I want to go and I explained that to them and say, okay.

01:14:26.000 So I've been to both private and public.

01:14:29.000 Who's easy to convert?

01:14:30.000 Klan people or Nazi people? 0.87

01:14:34.000 I would say probably Klan people. 0.97

01:14:40.000 They are, depending upon the individual groups, because I don't want to say that a white supremacist of any group or even individual racist is stamped out of a standard cookie cutter.

01:14:51.000 They come from all different walks of life, all different educational backgrounds, reasons for joining, etc.

01:14:58.000 But the Nazi movements, not so much the skinheads.

01:15:02.000 The skinheads are very disorganized, disjointed. 0.99

01:15:05.000 They go off the rails.

01:15:07.000 They don't listen to anybody, within their own command or whatever, where the Klan does have some respect for their, or a lot of respect for their higher-ups, the Great Titan, the Grand Dragon, the Imperial Wizard, etc.

01:15:21.000 But the Nazi movements, a lot of the larger ones, like his, his former movement, it's very militarily run, and there are quick consequences if you step out of line. 0.58

01:15:34.000 So, you know, I don't like Joe Rogan on my rally ground, but my Grand Dragon wants him here.

01:15:40.000 I'm going to be cool.

01:15:41.000 I'm not going to say a word to him.

01:15:42.000 I'm just going to stand over there because I know if he gets in my face, I might say something and then I'm going to get banished or whatever.

01:15:48.000 So it's very much run like a military in a lot of ways.

01:15:51.000 Yes.

01:15:52.000 Did you guys train?

01:15:53.000 Did you have training exercises and different things that you did?

01:15:57.000 Yeah, later on in the group, there was paramilitary training.

01:16:00.000 There was a rank structure.

01:16:02.000 So people like the military and it was very, very controlled in that sense.

01:16:08.000 When you say paramilitary training, what were you preparing for?

01:16:12.000 In these movements, they believe that the United States government is going to collapse, whether that's through a race war or civil war or anything like that.

01:16:19.000 And this goes far right, far left.

01:16:22.000 Most extremist groups have this, or even the jihadi type religious extremism.

01:16:28.000 They have this idea that they're going to rise up and be the leaders of the future tomorrow.

01:16:33.000 So groups like this prepare.

01:16:36.000 So they do what you call militia training, I guess.

01:16:39.000 Jeez.

01:16:40.000 So now, interestingly enough, right, he mentioned the word militia, okay?

01:16:45.000 So when you have very subtle nuance here, when you have a bunch of white guys who go out in the woods and practice shooting and they're in their camouflage and practice survival skills and all that kind of stuff, they're called militias. 0.58

01:17:03.000 But when you have black guys, black groups that do the same thing, they're not called militias.

01:17:08.000 They're called militants.

01:17:09.000 But it's the same thing.

01:17:11.000 But the word militant has more of a negative connotation than the word militia.

01:17:18.000 Really?

01:17:18.000 Yeah.

01:17:19.000 Interesting.

01:17:20.000 Who's using these terms?

01:17:22.000 By whose standard?

01:17:24.000 By the general puppet standard, especially white people will use those terms.

01:17:28.000 They were referred to blacks as being militants.

01:17:30.000 But you very rarely hear about, when you hear about militias, it's usually kooky white people. 1.00

01:17:37.000 It's usually like white people in Idaho or some groups outside of Court d'Alene.

01:17:42.000 Right, and the Aryan nations.

01:17:44.000 Yeah, the people in Michigan where his state, they have a lot of militias in Michigan.

01:17:50.000 Timothy McVeigh, you know, was part of a militia, you know, and there are other ones.

01:17:56.000 And they have different names to cover up, like he used Jeff Stevens to cover, you know, the thing.

01:18:03.000 Like there was a Klan group out of Texas.

01:18:06.000 It was the, what was it, something, ambulance service.

01:18:11.000 You know, just a store window name to cover up the real organization.

01:18:18.000 But speak to the recruitment.

01:18:21.000 Today, I mean, these groups have always, you know, since the beginning of time, or the beginning of their inception, have always recruited law enforcement and military people into the ranks of the group.

01:18:35.000 But now it's even more concentrated where they really are going after a lot of law enforcement and military, especially those people, veterans, who've only been in the military, Air Force, Army, Marines, Navy, whatever, for two years.

01:18:53.000 They feel that if somebody's in there for more than two years, they've become loyal to the government.

01:18:58.000 So you really can't.

01:18:59.000 It's harder to pull them.

01:19:02.000 And then at the two-year point, these people have training.

01:19:06.000 They have training in weaponry and bomb making, explosives, and survival skills, all that kind of stuff, which is what these people want to prepare them.

01:19:16.000 So you all served overseas and fought for the country over there.

01:19:23.000 Now, why don't you come fight for our country right here?

01:19:26.000 Because this is going on in our cities.

01:19:27.000 Look what's happening in Washington, D.C. and Chicago.

01:19:30.000 The Jews and the blacks are taking over and da-da-da-da. 1.00

01:19:32.000 Come fight for us here domestically.

01:19:36.000 And so they get lured in and then they learn these weapon skills because then they turn into lone wolves.

01:19:43.000 That's why we're seeing so many lone wolves.

01:19:45.000 But what's actually going on here, Joe, is this.

01:19:49.000 I learned this back in 1982.

01:19:53.000 All right?

01:19:55.000 Let me go back a little further than 1982.

01:19:59.000 1974.

01:20:00.000 I'm age 15 in the 10th grade, sophomore in high school.

01:20:05.000 And we had a class called the POTC, which stood for problems of the 20th Century.

01:20:10.000 Had a great teacher.

01:20:12.000 It was a class for seniors, 12th graders, but I was taken as a 10th grader.

01:20:16.000 He'd bring in different controversial speakers, talk about different abortion, you know, all kinds of controversial things back then.

01:20:23.000 And one day, he brought in the head of the American Nazi Party.

01:20:29.000 Now, as Jeff pointed out, the Nazi Party was founded by a fellow named George Lincoln Rockwell.

01:20:35.000 And by the way, one of Rockwell's daughters who long ago disowned her father was a teacher at my school.

01:20:42.000 But a lot of people didn't know that.

01:20:44.000 But anyway, George Lincoln Rockwell was murdered by one of his own Nazis, a guy named John Palter. 0.71

01:20:51.000 It was founded about 35 minutes from my house in Arlington, Virginia.

01:20:56.000 And John Palter shot and killed Rockwell out there on the street on Wilson Boulevard.

01:21:01.000 So Rockwell's right-hand guy was a guy named Matt Cole, K-O-E-H-L.

01:21:07.000 And on this day in 1974, Matt Cole and his right-hand guy, they're the heads of the American Nazi Party now after Rockwell, came to my school, to my class.

01:21:18.000 And they spoke to my class.

01:21:19.000 Now, you could never do that today, you know, but I'm glad we were able to do that back in 1974.

01:21:25.000 You know, I wish that kind of thing would happen today so people can see what's, you know, freedom of speech and all that.

01:21:31.000 Matt Cole pointed at me and pointed at another black kid in my class and said, we're going to ship you back to Africa.

01:21:38.000 And then he went like this.

01:21:39.000 And all you Jews out there, you're going back to Israel. 1.00

01:21:42.000 Now, I'm 15 years old.

01:21:43.000 I just sat there like looking at the guy, like, what on earth is this man talking about?

01:21:48.000 I didn't say anything to him, but one of my classmates, was a girl, piped up and said, well, they live here.

01:21:54.000 What if they don't want to go?

01:21:55.000 And Matt Cole said, oh, they have no choice.

01:21:58.000 If they do not leave voluntarily, they will be exterminated in the upcoming race war. 0.99

01:22:03.000 That was the first time I ever heard the term race war.

01:22:06.000 Now, I was already fascinated by racism since I was 10 years old, right?

01:22:10.000 But race war, what is this man talking about, right?

01:22:14.000 And so I began buying books and all kinds of stuff, learning different terminology for it, which will come later.

01:22:21.000 Like, for example, the white supremacists, they have two terms for the race war.

01:22:24.000 One is Rahoa, R-A-H-O-W-A, Rahoa, which are the first two letters of three words, racial holy war. 0.90

01:22:32.000 Also, they call it the Boogaloo.

01:22:35.000 So if you hear that term, they're not talking about the 1960s, you know, dance music.

01:22:39.000 So we're talking about the race war.

01:22:41.000 And so Matt Cole talked about the race war.

01:22:45.000 Well, I graduated two years later, 1976, from high school.

01:22:50.000 I graduated from college in 1980, four years after that.

01:22:55.000 And like I said, racism became my obsession.

01:22:59.000 I did not confront Matt Cole in school because, you know, my peer group back then, you know, we were raised, you have respect for your elders as figures of authority, whether you accept them or not, you still respect them.

01:23:13.000 And so, you know, I didn't confront him like that.

01:23:16.000 But now I've graduated from college, right?

01:23:20.000 And I graduated in 1980 at age 22.

01:23:23.000 In 1982, I'm age 24.

01:23:26.000 I developed contacts with different people.

01:23:28.000 I knew where some of these groups were, etc.

01:23:31.000 I found out about a demonstration, an unpublicized demonstration by the American Nazi Party that was going to take place in front of the White House.

01:23:39.000 There is a park right across the street from the White House called Lafayette Park.

01:23:43.000 24-7, 365 days a year, there is somebody in that park protesting something.

01:23:49.000 Nuclear weapons, the environment, abortion, you name it, they're there all the time.

01:23:54.000 And they face the White House with their billboards and whatever.

01:23:57.000 So I found out the American Nazi Party was going to have a silent, unpublicized demonstration, which means nobody knows about it, not even the police, right?

01:24:07.000 So I'm going to go down there and see them.

01:24:10.000 Now, back then, you could drive up and down the 1600 block of Pennsylvania Avenue, which is where the White House sits.

01:24:16.000 And I only live like about 30, 40 minutes from there, 15 minutes from D.C. on a non-rush hour day.

01:24:23.000 So I go down there early.

01:24:25.000 They're going to be there at 12 noon.

01:24:26.000 I park my car at Caddy Corner to the White House.

01:24:29.000 I wait.

01:24:30.000 Here comes this van.

01:24:32.000 About 13 to 15 of these Nazis get out, right? 0.87

01:24:35.000 And who do I see?

01:24:37.000 Matt Cole and Martin Kerr.

01:24:39.000 The same two guys from eight years ago who came to my school.

01:24:43.000 You never forget the face.

01:24:44.000 I mean, I can look at my hand right now and see his face right there.

01:24:47.000 You know, you never forget the face of somebody who tells you they're going to ship you somewhere whether you want to go or not.

01:24:52.000 And if you don't, exterminate you if you don't go voluntarily, right?

01:24:56.000 So anyway, Matt Cole gets all his Nazis lined up.

01:25:02.000 They're not wearing anything that indicates they're Nazis.

01:25:04.000 They're wearing just dark black suits.

01:25:06.000 And they're standing there like this, facing the White House across the street, like this.

01:25:10.000 It's lunchtime in D.C. People are walking by, not even knowing who they are.

01:25:14.000 I know who they are, right?

01:25:15.000 I guess maybe the White House might have known who they were.

01:25:18.000 So anyway, once he got them all lined up, I walked right over to Matt Cole and I said, Matt Cole, he like jumped, like, who is this black person calling my name, you know?

01:25:28.000 And he says, do I know you?

01:25:30.000 And I said, well, you spoke at my high school.

01:25:33.000 And what high school would that be?

01:25:35.000 I said, Wooten High School in Rockville, Maryland.

01:25:38.000 And he goes, yes, yes, yes, I remember you.

01:25:42.000 That was a long time ago.

01:25:43.000 And I said, yes.

01:25:44.000 Remember you?

01:25:45.000 Yeah, he remembered me.

01:25:46.000 Yeah.

01:25:47.000 And he said, yes, that was a long time ago.

01:25:50.000 I said, yes, that was eight years ago.

01:25:51.000 He goes, yes, yes, I remember.

01:25:53.000 What can I do for you?

01:25:54.000 I said, well, I'm still here.

01:25:56.000 He says, I can see that.

01:25:57.000 How can I help you?

01:25:58.000 I said, well, you can tell me just who the hell gives you the authority to make permanent travel arrangements for me.

01:26:05.000 And he says, what's your name?

01:26:06.000 I said, Darrell Davis.

01:26:08.000 And then he did something I've never forgotten.

01:26:10.000 He shook my hand and he held my hand real tight and he shook his finger with his other hand, shook his finger in my face.

01:26:16.000 And he said, Mr. Davis, you have to understand one thing.

01:26:20.000 It was in the interest of your race, the black race, to be a strong race. 0.98

01:26:24.000 And you cannot be a strong race unless you are a pure race. 0.92

01:26:28.000 And you cannot be a pure race if you are miscegenating with other races.

01:26:31.000 It was in the interest of my race, the Aryan race, which is what he calls white race, right?

01:26:35.000 To also be a pure race. 0.70

01:26:37.000 And we cannot be, to be a strong race.

01:26:39.000 And we cannot be a strong race if we are miscegenating with mongrel, I mean, with mud races such as yours. 1.00

01:26:46.000 We are becoming a mongrel race.

01:26:48.000 So anybody who's non-white is a mud race. 1.00

01:26:51.000 And he's fearing that his race is dying out, becoming a mongrel race by mixing with other races. 0.99

01:26:58.000 So he says, until the races understand that they cannot miscegenate, we cannot live side by side.

01:27:04.000 We cannot live together.

01:27:05.000 And what do you hear there?

01:27:06.000 Fear?

01:27:07.000 Yeah, just fear.

01:27:09.000 So he, you know, I talked to him for about, you know, maybe 20, 30 minutes.

01:27:14.000 I wasn't there to beat him up or cuss him out.

01:27:16.000 I just want to understand where he's coming from, right?

01:27:20.000 And so a few months later, they applied for a permit.

01:27:23.000 They had their national American Nazi Party recruitment rally in Washington, D.C. So people came from all over the country, right?

01:27:32.000 And now this time, it was publicized.

01:27:35.000 So you had about 50 of them show up, and there were tens of thousands of people that came to protest from New York, Richmond, Virginia, Baltimore, all over.

01:27:45.000 So you had every police department was there to, and there was rioting, all kinds of craziness going on, right?

01:27:52.000 You could not get to, I went there with my secretary.

01:27:55.000 You could not get to the Nazis. 0.85

01:27:57.000 I saw Matt Cole and them, and now, of course, they're wearing their Gestapo uniforms with the SS insignias, flying swastika flags, and all that kind of thing.

01:28:06.000 But you couldn't get to them because if the police have their shields and their batons and pushing people back, right?

01:28:13.000 So then people, they came with bricks and all kinds of stuff and began throwing them over the heads of the police to land on the Nazis gathered in this opening in the park.

01:28:23.000 And so the cops began tear gassing everybody, and then it came a full-blown riot.

01:28:28.000 People were turning over police cars, breaking out the windows, kicking out the headlights, setting buildings on fire in Washington, D.C. You can find it on YouTube.

01:28:36.000 And so anyway, this is before internet, right?

01:28:40.000 1980s.

01:28:43.000 My secretary and I go home, we watch the news.

01:28:46.000 And there's Matt Cole sitting in the studio of one of the network TV stations, NBC, CBS, ABC, whatever it was.

01:28:54.000 And he's talking to the anchor person, and they're showing footage of the riot in D.C. that day.

01:28:59.000 He goes, you see, you see, it's the blacks and the Jews who are turning over the police cars and trying to attack us. 1.00

01:29:05.000 You don't see the Nazis turning over the police cars.

01:29:08.000 It was then that I realized what he was doing because he was a pretty smart guy, just smart in the wrong direction.

01:29:16.000 I couldn't figure out why would he have his national recruitment rally to recruit people into the Nazi Party in Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. is two-thirds black. 0.62

01:29:27.000 There are no black people in D.C. who want to join the American Nazi Party.

01:29:30.000 There are no Jews in Washington, D.C., or Jews anywhere who want to join the American Nazi Party.

01:29:36.000 So why D.C.?

01:29:38.000 Because he knew that would happen.

01:29:41.000 And he has the official footage from CBS, ABC, NBC.

01:29:46.000 He takes that footage, goes out there to Cordelia in Iowa, Idaho, or Washington State, the Pacific Northwest, and says, you see what's going on in our nation's capital?

01:29:57.000 Our country is being run by Zog. 1.00

01:29:59.000 Zog is a very common term in white supremacy, Z-O-G.

01:30:04.000 It stands for Zionist Occupied Government.

01:30:07.000 Oh, boy.

01:30:07.000 Yeah.

01:30:08.000 And so he shows this rioting of all these people who he alleges are blacks and Jews destroying and denying people their right of freedom of assembly, freedom of speech.

01:30:19.000 So then it's a recruitment tool.

01:30:22.000 So I learned that.

01:30:23.000 And I realized what he was doing.

01:30:25.000 And I've seen the Klan do the same thing.

01:30:26.000 They will go somewhere where they know there's going to be some kind of a riot.

01:30:30.000 That's why they want to march in Skokie, Illinois, which was an all-Jewish neighborhood, because they knew it was going to create a disturbance. 0.96

01:30:37.000 And they used that.

01:30:39.000 But so I learned a lot from Matt Cole.

01:30:41.000 It's bizarre that someone would be smart in the wrong way like that.

01:30:46.000 It's bizarre.

01:30:47.000 It's bizarre, but you find it in any color, every color.

01:30:51.000 People, divide and conquer is how you gain power.

01:30:56.000 And the first thing, and going back to the fear factor of that, like we did the exact same thing.

01:31:01.000 Every time there was violence, when we clashed with Antifa or something like that, we had people out there filming.

01:31:06.000 Like NSM had its own media arm.

01:31:08.000 So they're out there filming that, and we would put out those clips.

01:31:12.000 So immediately, especially if there was violence, if there was actual clashes and the police weren't keeping people separated, those always turned into recruits.

01:31:20.000 That's how these groups would utilize that stuff.

01:31:23.000 So you'd have people that were being like, oh man, I'm sorry, I missed it.

01:31:26.000 I didn't know we'd be fighting with the Reds.

01:31:29.000 I'll be at the next one.

01:31:30.000 And then you'd have applications coming in from new recruits that would see it on the news.

01:31:34.000 So these groups are always manipulating the media.

01:31:38.000 Some of the rallies that I organized were at places like Valley Forge, Yorktown, Virginia, historic places that you could use those elements and it would guarantee the press, or downtown LA at the city hall, or marching on D.C., places that would guarantee a lot of press.

01:31:54.000 And just like Daryl said, it wasn't necessarily to recruit people in those areas.

01:31:58.000 It was to whip up chaos because that would benefit these groups.

01:32:06.000 How do these groups use the media or rather social media and the internet to radicalize people?

01:32:14.000 Nowadays, it's a double-edged sword, the media, because these groups before, like I was discussing earlier, you had to kind of search them out or a recruiter had to find you or something like that.

01:32:25.000 It wasn't easy to find.

01:32:26.000 Now, a fourth grader can click on a website and go find these groups.

01:32:31.000 They're easy to find online.

01:32:33.000 And so sometimes they're very overt, but a lot of times there's different censorship things that are in place.

01:32:40.000 So they'll change the cover of the book.

01:32:42.000 So the propagandists that we had in the group were making stuff look less innocuous, not using swastikas or things like that.

01:32:49.000 So some groups are very prolific at that, and they'll use podcasts, they'll use videos.

01:32:56.000 Do you have Nazi podcasts?

01:32:57.000 Yeah.

01:32:57.000 I would say, like...

01:33:00.000 Don't get any ideas, man.

01:33:01.000 They don't get...

01:33:02.000 Ha, ha, ha, ha.

01:33:04.000 They don't get as many listeners as Joe Rogan.

01:33:07.000 But I was just thinking, like, what kind of how many people are listening to Nazi podcasts?

01:33:17.000 That really varies, you know.

01:33:19.000 It's still a large movement in this country.

01:33:21.000 Yeah.

01:33:23.000 And how does it grow now?

01:33:24.000 Does it grow based on like the things Daryl was talking about, like riots and stuff like that, where they'll use that, maybe Black Lives Matter riots from the 2000s or 2020s rather?

01:33:35.000 Well, one of the things that's causing it to grow also, which I was going to leading up to when I talked with Matt Cole, what I learned in 1982, was that these people, meaning the movement, the white supremacy movement, are fearing.

01:33:50.000 He told me this in 1982.

01:33:52.000 They are fearing the year 2042.

01:33:56.000 It's not a conspiracy.

01:33:57.000 It's for real.

01:33:59.000 The U.S. Census is taken every decade.

01:34:03.000 I'm 67.

01:34:04.000 When I was, it doesn't matter how old you are, how old he is or whatever, when we all were children, the black population in this country was 12%.

01:34:15.000 Native Americans, 1%, right? 0.99

01:34:18.000 Latino, Hispanic Americans, almost 2%.

01:34:22.000 Asian Americans, Pacific Islander Americans, almost 3%.

01:34:28.000 Whites were like around 86, 87%.

01:34:31.000 This is back in, I was born in 58.

01:34:34.000 So every decade, this is happening.

01:34:37.000 And this is what Matt Cole was telling me, that they were fearing.

01:34:40.000 He used the word fear.

01:34:42.000 He said it has to be stopped.

01:34:44.000 He said, in the year 2042, if this trend continues, this country will be 50-50, meaning 50% white, 50% non-white. 0.89

01:34:54.000 The last census taken in our country was 2020.

01:34:58.000 Guess what?

01:34:59.000 Whites went from like 80-some percent from the time I was a kid and you were a kid, now 59%.

01:35:06.000 That was in 2020.

01:35:08.000 It's less than that right now in 2025.

01:35:10.000 So in 2044, it's going to be this.

01:35:12.000 It's predicted between 2045 and 2050, it's going to flip.

01:35:17.000 And for the first time in the history of the United States, whites will become the minority. 0.72

01:35:22.000 And while there are plenty of white people who say, hey, that doesn't bother me, no big deals, evolution.

01:35:27.000 What's the big deal?

01:35:28.000 There is a slice of our population, the ones that I deal with, who think it is a big deal, and they're trying to stop it.

01:35:36.000 And that's why when I first started, I've been doing this, like I said, for 45 years.

01:35:40.000 When I first started doing this, there was just the KKK, white power skinheads, and some neo-Nazi groups.

01:35:46.000 That was basically it.

01:35:47.000 Today you got the KKK, the neo-Nazis, the skinheads, the Patriot Front, the Vanguard, the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, the National Alliance, on, on and on, whole slew of groups.

01:35:59.000 And they're all saying, come join us, come join us.

01:36:01.000 We're going to take back our country, right?

01:36:03.000 So people out of fear of their identity being erased, as they're saying, because they're trying to keep the races pure, because what they tell me is, Daryl, I don't want my grandkids to be brown. 0.97

01:36:15.000 They call it the Browning of America, or white genocide through miscegenation.

01:36:20.000 So these people out of fear of their identity being erased, because they truly believe that they are patriots, and it's their job to save this country.

01:36:29.000 We built this country, we wrote the Constitution, and now people are coming into our country who don't look like us and squeezing us out of our own country. 1.00

01:36:36.000 That's the mentality.

01:36:38.000 And as Jeff points out, they're surrounded by an echo chamber that keeps repeating that, so then it becomes the truth to them, right?

01:36:44.000 So they run and join these groups to take back the country.

01:36:49.000 But when the group does not act fast enough to take back the country, they get antsy and get frustrated and say, you know what?

01:36:55.000 If the Nazis can't do it or the Klan can't do it, I'll do it myself. 0.99

01:36:58.000 And they walk into a black church in South Carolina, boom, boom, boom, boom, and murder nine black people doing Bible study or the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, kill off 11 Jewish people.

01:37:09.000 The Buffalo grocery store in New York.

01:37:11.000 The Sikh Indian Temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin murders seven Sikh Indians doing religious service.

01:37:18.000 The Walmart in El Paso, Texas, 23 Mexican people were murdered by white supremacists a few years ago.

01:37:25.000 These people are called lone wolves.

01:37:27.000 And every time one of them gets taken out by law enforcement or gets arrested and their property gets searched, law enforcement always finds a cache of automatic weapons that are being stockpiled for Rahoa or the Boogaloo because they're looking to have this redo of the Civil War to preserve their lifestyle. 0.95

01:37:49.000 And so 2042 is going to be a pivotal year.

01:37:53.000 And we're only, what, 16, 17 years away from that right now.

01:37:57.000 Wow.

01:37:58.000 So that's why they walked down the street chanting, they will not replace us.

01:38:02.000 That's what that's all about?

01:38:03.000 Yeah.

01:38:03.000 Yep.

01:38:04.000 This is white replacement theory, right? 0.93

01:38:06.000 Which is bogus.

01:38:07.000 Nobody's trying to replace anybody.

01:38:09.000 Just, you guys aren't fucking enough.

01:38:15.000 It's so simple.

01:38:16.000 You're already in the majority.

01:38:19.000 You need to do your work.

01:38:24.000 It is.

01:38:25.000 Just not my sister, right?

01:38:26.000 It's just such a disturbing aspect of society that you would think there's going to come a point in time where there's enough education, enough understanding, especially with the access to information we have with the internet, that this would all go away.

01:38:26.000 Right.

01:38:42.000 But it doesn't seem like that's helping because it seems like the more access to information, the more people settle into these echo chambers.

01:38:51.000 That and also a lot of the old guard realize, you know, this is happening, and if we want to preserve Our culture, our whatever, we need to pass this on to young people.

01:39:05.000 We need to get more young people involved.

01:39:08.000 And they began recruiting young people to disseminate this information and galvanize more of their peers into this ideology.

01:39:19.000 And back to the recruitment of military and law enforcement because they know this is going to happen and they're going to want those people on board to be on that side.

01:39:34.000 And I mean, you can probably talk about military and law enforcement inside your organization.

01:39:39.000 I can talk about it in the Klan or whatever.

01:39:41.000 Yeah, as far as the military was concerned, we were actively trying to recruit military.

01:39:46.000 So early on in the organization, it was like 10% maybe of the members.

01:39:50.000 By the time I left, it was about 50% then.

01:39:52.000 And how did you do that?

01:39:54.000 Well, on their applications, we were asking what branch they were in, what rank they achieved, because we were looking at all that for potential leadership.

01:40:03.000 So anybody that had military experience, especially in the higher ranks, those people would be naturally looked at for leadership positions in the party because they had those.

01:40:13.000 Right, but how did they try to recruit military people?

01:40:16.000 So using the same tactics as everybody else, but as far as the organization specifically, having that military structure, like we discussed earlier, having that structure gave them, so somebody that was coming out of the military that was retired or something like that, it would provide that structure that they were missing.

01:40:35.000 So a lot of times for people that are involved in this stuff, it's fulfilling a psychological need.

01:40:40.000 It's being part of a mission.

01:40:41.000 It's having that something that's driving them and a driving force that's behind their ideology.

01:40:49.000 So finding a place to fit in, having a mission, a sense of purpose.

01:40:54.000 I think it's a lot of things.

01:40:56.000 A lot of times people miss that aspect of it.

01:40:58.000 And I explain it not to excuse it because there is no excuse for it.

01:41:01.000 These are choices that people make.

01:41:03.000 But if you understand the psychology of it and like why someone's involved in it, that's helpful to help pull them out.

01:41:10.000 And also when someone's coming out of these organizations to have a new mission, have something else.

01:41:16.000 So for a lot of people that might be learning to play guitar or doing an extreme sport or getting involved with the church or just, it could be anything, but there has to be something because if they're missing that, that's when they really struggle.

01:41:29.000 That's one thing I've seen a lot of.

01:41:31.000 So what is the protocol?

01:41:33.000 Like, how do you handle, like, say if someone is leaving and they contact you and say, I know you left, I want to leave too.

01:41:40.000 What are the steps you take to make sure that they do find some sort of a new purpose?

01:41:45.000 A lot of times just kind of asking them questions, you know, asking a lot of questions and seeing what they're interested in and finding those things, trying to help them find that sense of purpose and that because that's missing.

01:41:57.000 So I've had a lot of people say, like, when they've left, they're like, I don't have that.

01:42:02.000 I don't have that.

01:42:03.000 So a lot of times we'll talk through that.

01:42:05.000 Well, what interests you?

01:42:06.000 What are you interested in?

01:42:07.000 And a lot of times we try to keep them kind of steer clear of politics.

01:42:10.000 But for some people, it might be okay.

01:42:11.000 But typically, that's kind of probably one they should stay away from for a little while.

01:42:16.000 So politics, because they have this desire to help fix society.

01:42:22.000 So they think they're going to get involved.

01:42:24.000 I'm not a Nazi anymore, so I'll get involved in fixing it in a more legitimate way. 0.66

01:42:29.000 And one of the problems, Joe, is this.

01:42:32.000 When these people leave the movement, there is a moniker that's tagged on them and a stigma that follows.

01:42:43.000 When you see their name in the media, it's never Jeff Scoop, blah, blah, blah.

01:42:48.000 It's always former neo-Nazi Jeff Scoop.

01:42:51.000 Or former rock musician.

01:42:55.000 Has some wacky ideas, but let's not talk about that.

01:43:00.000 So that's that stigma kind of follows, you know, and it's hard for them to break.

01:43:04.000 Right.

01:43:04.000 You know, whereby most people, you know, when they screw up or whatever, you know, it's forgiven.

01:43:09.000 Like, say, you know, you and I are friends.

01:43:10.000 I call you and say, hey, Joe, man, you're not going to believe this last weekend I got thrown in jail for DWI.

01:43:20.000 You'd be like, well, man, you know, you need to quit drinking and driving.

01:43:23.000 You know, why don't you call me?

01:43:24.000 You don't have to drive home, whatever.

01:43:24.000 I would have come picked you up.

01:43:27.000 And you and I would still be friends.

01:43:29.000 But if I call you and say, hey, man, I got arrested for murder or for rape, you'd be like, why are you calling me?

01:43:35.000 Right, right, right.

01:43:36.000 Distancing.

01:43:37.000 So even though these people might have been friends with somebody who later became a white supremacist or whatever, the stigma of it, even now that they're out, they still are a little leery and want to stay clear because you're judged by the company you keep.

01:43:53.000 So it's always, you know, ex-con, you know, blah, blah, blah.

01:43:55.000 You know, instead of just saying so-and-so is working here.

01:43:58.000 Yeah, but I mean, there's very few people that even want to believe that someone's capable of being able to do it.

01:44:04.000 Right, exactly.

01:44:04.000 The tiger, stripes, and leopard.

01:44:06.000 They would always think, like, this guy's got to be fucked up.

01:44:09.000 He was a Nazi. 0.84

01:44:10.000 Yeah, and it's crazy because I had a reporter one time, and I won't say who or anything like that, but he had said, you know, I visit a murderer in prison, and I'm okay with that, but I'm not so sure about your journey.

01:44:25.000 Like, I mean, like, he, basically what he was saying in so many words was he was more comfortable with the murderer than somebody, and this is a reporter, you know, somebody, a journalist.

01:44:36.000 And they were more uncomfortable speaking with a former neo-Nazi.

01:44:40.000 That's fascinating.

01:44:42.000 Yeah.

01:44:43.000 Were they Jewish?

01:44:44.000 No.

01:44:46.000 Definitely liberal.

01:44:48.000 Yeah.

01:44:48.000 Yes.

01:44:49.000 Yes.

01:44:50.000 I think the stigma of it is just so unforgivable, you know, which is part of the problem.

01:44:57.000 But then why, if you're not going to forgive that person or that ideology, right?

01:45:02.000 Then why do you want to fight it?

01:45:05.000 Why do you want to combat it?

01:45:06.000 Why not just accept it?

01:45:07.000 Because it's not going to change, or at least you're not going to change your attitude towards it.

01:45:10.000 You have to help.

01:45:10.000 Right.

01:45:13.000 If you want these people to leave and reintegrate into society, you have to have forgiveness.

01:45:18.000 I mean, you know, prison is a penal institution, not a reform institution, which is why this country has the highest recidivism rate of any country in the world, right?

01:45:18.000 Exactly.

01:45:30.000 People go in there and they don't get reformed, and they learn from better people than they were at their crime, and they go back out and they do it again, and people don't accept them because they have that stigma that follows them.

01:45:42.000 Well, I can't hire an ex-con, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

01:45:45.000 Where do they go?

01:45:46.000 Right.

01:45:47.000 That's the recid.

01:45:48.000 An interesting side note on that, you know, we talk about like some of the hate that I had, and I was a raging anti-Semite, more than a racist by all points.

01:45:59.000 And the irony of today working with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, I mean, there's just so much irony there.

01:46:04.000 And like the Jewish community was the community that I dehumanized and villainized the most. 1.00

01:46:09.000 And Joe, they have been the most accepting and welcoming as far as since the change has happened.

01:46:17.000 And that just blew my mind.

01:46:19.000 Because the first time I went to speak at a synagogue, I thought, man, these people are going to want to stone me to death.

01:46:25.000 What should I say?

01:46:27.000 How am I going to, you know, what is this going to be like?

01:46:30.000 I'd never been in a synagogue before, and this took place in Skokie, Illinois.

01:46:35.000 And I tell you, after speaking there, I got more hugs and more love and compassion than I'd probably any other place I could ever remember being.

01:46:43.000 That's really interesting.

01:46:44.000 So did they try to understand why you at one point in time hated Jews?

01:46:52.000 Did they ask you questions?

01:46:53.000 Like, what did you think?

01:46:56.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:46:57.000 I mean, well, they have something called teshuva, which means like forgiveness or repentance.

01:47:01.000 And tikwin olam means to heal the world.

01:47:06.000 So these were things that were counterintuitive and contrary to everything that I thought I knew about the nation.

01:47:11.000 No, except for speaking Hebrew, you understand?

01:47:13.000 Right.

01:47:15.000 Yeah.

01:47:16.000 So, but it was really bizarre.

01:47:18.000 So it's like when I speak with kids at schools, you know, I said, you know, you guys remember in elementary school when you had opposite day and your shirts backwards and all that kind of stuff?

01:47:27.000 I said, that was my life.

01:47:28.000 Like everything that I thought that I knew about the Jews and the movement, I was an expert on the Jews, the Jewish question.

01:47:34.000 Did you have any experience with Jewish people?

01:47:38.000 None.

01:47:38.000 No.

01:47:39.000 So this was all just based on Nazi ideology?

01:47:39.000 No.

01:47:43.000 Huh.

01:47:46.000 So you had no negative or positive interactions with Jewish people?

01:47:50.000 No.

01:47:51.000 Towards the end of my time when I was involved, I had a few interactions with Jewish people that I knew of.

01:47:57.000 But before that, no, absolutely not.

01:48:00.000 Just wouldn't discuss anything with them, wouldn't talk to them, and just felt like they were inherently evil.

01:48:06.000 Swallowed the whole anti-Semitic pill, I guess you could say.

01:48:11.000 I mean, I believed all of it.

01:48:14.000 And they were the people that I dehumanized the most.

01:48:17.000 And yet, today, they are the people that have been the most open.

01:48:21.000 And, you know, for the longest time, you know, Jews have been blamed for everything.

01:48:26.000 Things, you know, they had nothing to do with.

01:48:30.000 They say, you know, the Jews run the media. 1.00

01:48:32.000 They own the media.

01:48:34.000 They run the banking systems and all that kind of stuff.

01:48:38.000 And so people begin believing in that.

01:48:42.000 And they become persona non grata, even though they may not even know any Jewish people.

01:48:48.000 And that's why I say, you know, when I feel I can trust some individual who trusts me or whatever around my friends, I will invite them over or whatever, and I bring in some Jewish friends of mine and other black friends or white friends so that they can see something outside the echo chamber.

01:49:05.000 Another former neo-Nazi, who's a very good friend of mine, was telling me that when he was in— That's a funny sentence. 0.94

01:49:11.000 You're a moron, right?

01:49:14.000 Former neo-Nazi, who's a very good friend of mine.

01:49:17.000 A Freudian slip.

01:49:19.000 No, it's accurate.

01:49:21.000 Exactly.

01:49:22.000 So anyway, he was telling me when he was in the movement, he's from Wisconsin.

01:49:28.000 And, you know, their football team is the Green Bay Packers, and they're just, you know, crazy about their football team.

01:49:34.000 And so he would tell me, you know, they're not allowed to watch football games because it's interracial.

01:49:40.000 You know, you've got black and white members on the teams playing together.

01:49:44.000 So that's forbidden.

01:49:45.000 And so he'd have to sneak around and watch, turn the volume down and watch the game because he loved the Packers, right?

01:49:52.000 And when the Packers would score a goal, he'd do like this.

01:49:57.000 Right.

01:49:58.000 And so then he tells me that, you know, when he got out and other people were getting out, turns out they were doing the same thing watching the game.

01:50:09.000 That's so crazy.

01:50:10.000 But he has a great story telling about the guys from Cameroon.

01:50:14.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:50:15.000 So I had met some embassy people from a country of Cameroon in Africa.

01:50:21.000 And they had come out to one of my talks.

01:50:23.000 And afterwards, they said, you know, it was really fascinating.

01:50:27.000 And America is really far behind on race relations.

01:50:30.000 When we first got here, we didn't realize we were black.

01:50:33.000 And I was like, what are you guys talking about?

01:50:38.000 I said, we got to talk.

01:50:39.000 I got to understand this.

01:50:40.000 What do you mean you didn't realize you were black?

01:50:43.000 And he's like, well, of course we realize we're black, but you see, in the United States, or where we're from in Cameroon, we're Cameroonian.

01:50:50.000 That's who we are.

01:50:52.000 We know we're black, but he goes, in the United States, it's different.

01:50:56.000 You're black American, white American. 0.63

01:50:58.000 Yeah, he says, we're treated differently in the United States, even by other black people.

01:51:03.000 We were treated differently.

01:51:04.000 So he says, now we know we're black.

01:51:07.000 Wow.

01:51:08.000 I took a minute to wrap my mind around that one.

01:51:11.000 Well, it makes sense.

01:51:12.000 They think of themselves as Cameroonian.

01:51:14.000 As they should.

01:51:15.000 Yeah, as they should.

01:51:16.000 Yep.

01:51:16.000 Yeah.

01:51:17.000 Wow.

01:51:18.000 Yeah, that's what's crazy when you experience racism from other black people.

01:51:22.000 You're like, whoa, right?

01:51:23.000 Well, now, hold on now.

01:51:25.000 Or discrimination, I should say.

01:51:26.000 Well, when you experience it from anybody.

01:51:28.000 Right.

01:51:29.000 But understand something.

01:51:31.000 Okay, so, you know, we have a unique thing here called slavery.

01:51:37.000 And Jewish people have a unique thing called the Holocaust. 0.94

01:51:40.000 So if you're a white guy and you're walking down the street, the sidewalk, and some other white guy is coming up the sidewalk, you don't know him, just a stranger, you know.

01:51:53.000 You guys are going to pass and not say a thing to either one of them.

01:51:58.000 Just go on by, right?

01:52:00.000 If it's a black guy, two black guys passing, they're going to go, yo, man, what's up? 0.95

01:52:05.000 They're going to acknowledge one another because they have a shared experience.

01:52:09.000 They both are descendants of slaves.

01:52:11.000 They both have experienced racism at some point in their life or whatever.

01:52:14.000 If two Jews pass who don't know each other, they're going to go shalom because of that commonality, that experience.

01:52:22.000 So unless you've had that experience, you don't react to it.

01:52:28.000 So when I lived in Africa, on the continent of Africa for 10 years, I lived in Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, and Senegal, and visited many other countries in between because of my dad's job.

01:52:39.000 So I can tell you, all black people don't look alike. 1.00

01:52:43.000 All black people don't know each other. 1.00

01:52:46.000 And that's a funny thing to say, too.

01:52:50.000 Yeah, but you know what?

01:52:51.000 A lot of white people think that.

01:52:53.000 They do.

01:52:54.000 A lot?

01:52:54.000 Yeah, especially older ones.

01:52:57.000 Now, at one time, in a city, all black people probably did know each other, okay?

01:53:04.000 Because they had to go to the same school.

01:53:06.000 And there was only one black school in the town, right?

01:53:09.000 They couldn't go to different white schools. 0.53

01:53:11.000 Okay, so yeah, you know, they can only shop in a certain store.

01:53:14.000 They couldn't shop in every store or restaurant.

01:53:16.000 So yeah, they would run into each other more often.

01:53:18.000 But today, no, but the stigma is still there, the sentiment, especially with older people.

01:53:23.000 So anyway, if I'm walking down the street and I've had this happen, and some black guy from Africa is coming up the street, I go, hey, man, what's up? 1.00

01:53:33.000 You know, I don't know the guy.

01:53:34.000 He looks at me like, kind of strange, like, I don't know you.

01:53:37.000 Why are you talking to me?

01:53:38.000 Because he doesn't have that experience.

01:53:40.000 Right.

01:53:41.000 So we're not monolithic.

01:53:41.000 Right.

01:53:44.000 Yeah.

01:53:44.000 Right.

01:53:45.000 Well, this is the only way these movements like the neo-Nazis work is if you don't know a lot of people from all over the world and realize we're all just people.

01:53:59.000 This is, you know, and it is very fear-based, right?

01:54:03.000 Yeah.

01:54:03.000 Because, I mean, think about it.

01:54:05.000 You're clinging to the lowest common denominator.

01:54:07.000 You all have a certain amount of melanin in your skin, and you're all from a certain part of the world.

01:54:13.000 That's it.

01:54:14.000 And it's really not a very good commonality.

01:54:16.000 It's terrible bound.

01:54:17.000 Especially when you think about the differences in personalities and tastes and just how people behave.

01:54:17.000 It's terrible, yeah.

01:54:22.000 And it's not a good indicator at all.

01:54:25.000 It's the dumbest.

01:54:27.000 It really is.

01:54:28.000 But that has no bearing on your character, no bearing on your intellect, no bearing on any of the things that we find fascinating and attractive about people.

01:54:35.000 It's just the color of your skin, which is the dumbest fucking thing on earth. 1.00

01:54:39.000 Absolutely.

01:54:40.000 And, you know, and we all may engage in it somewhat.

01:54:45.000 Like, for example, if I like Chinese food, and if I go to a Chinese restaurant, I don't want to see a bunch of white college kids or black college kids for that matter in the kitchen cooking it for me. 1.00

01:55:01.000 You know, I want the authentic real deal.

01:55:01.000 Right.

01:55:03.000 Right.

01:55:04.000 You know, so am I being prejudiced?

01:55:06.000 No.

01:55:07.000 That's not prejudice.

01:55:08.000 You want to experience the culture.

01:55:10.000 Yeah.

01:55:11.000 Like, if I go to an Italian restaurant, I'm assuming there's going to be a bunch of old school Italian people back there cooking.

01:55:18.000 You know, I want heavy accents.

01:55:22.000 You know, I want the smell of garlic in the air.

01:55:25.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:55:26.000 Do you know where Italians came from?

01:55:28.000 Originally?

01:55:29.000 Yeah.

01:55:29.000 I mean, I'm assuming Italy?

01:55:32.000 Well, that's what they miss.

01:55:34.000 I mean, what are you trying to say?

01:55:35.000 Well, I'm going to tell you.

01:55:36.000 Okay.

01:55:37.000 Okay, so Italians came from Africa.

01:55:40.000 They came from the Moors. 0.99

01:55:41.000 Oh, yes.

01:55:42.000 Well, Sicily in particular.

01:55:43.000 That's actually where my family's from.

01:55:45.000 Okay, well, there you go.

01:55:46.000 And they're darker in Sicily than in Rome and Venice and wherever else.

01:55:46.000 Okay.

01:55:51.000 The further you move from the equator, the darker the skin. 0.95

01:55:54.000 Right.

01:55:55.000 Okay, yeah, the Moors came into there.

01:55:58.000 We all evolved from Africa at some point in time, way back when.

01:56:02.000 But, you know, a lot of people don't realize that.

01:56:02.000 Right.

01:56:05.000 And they really need to check their DNA and check their history rather than just take it from where they started, where they were born.

01:56:12.000 You know, that's why I think it's so important to not ban books and rewrite history of the world.

01:56:17.000 Of course.

01:56:18.000 Yeah, of course.

01:56:19.000 You know, there is some indication that human beings might have come out of Asia as well.

01:56:24.000 In fact, one of the oldest known human skeletons that they found, which predates...

01:56:32.000 No, it's another one.

01:56:33.000 That Lucy.

01:56:34.000 Well, Lucy is out of Ethiopia.

01:56:35.000 Right, but Lucy wasn't a Homo sapien. 0.88

01:56:38.000 They found something that is a Homo sapien that's 500,000 years older than when they thought Homo sapiens existed.

01:56:46.000 This is very recent.

01:56:48.000 And so it was likely that this was taking place in multiple areas of the world.

01:56:54.000 Just like there's different animals in multiple places of the world.

01:56:57.000 There's different primates in multiple places of the world.

01:56:59.000 And there's a bunch of different kinds of human beings, of course, right?

01:57:02.000 There's Denisovans, which have just recently discovered.

01:57:06.000 And then there was the Hobbit people on the island of Flores. 1.00

01:57:10.000 When it comes to the evolutionary history of human beings, it's very, very odd.

01:57:15.000 But when you talk about the cultural history of human beings, that's when things get really crazy because it was just a lot of people traveling all over the place and just settling into the climate.

01:57:27.000 And the reason why white people are white is just because there is no sun. 0.92

01:57:31.000 It's that simple.

01:57:32.000 And they had to develop essentially like a giant solar panel to suck up vitamin D because they weren't getting any vitamin D from the sun.

01:57:41.000 It's really that simple.

01:57:43.000 And that's when it gets real weird.

01:57:45.000 Which has nothing to do with their intelligence or lack thereof.

01:57:48.000 Zero.

01:57:49.000 You know, it's all environmental.

01:57:52.000 And over the course of hundreds of thousands of years, people change their appearance.

01:57:57.000 And, you know, when you tell people that, they're like, wait, what?

01:58:01.000 We all came from the same source.

01:58:03.000 We're all strong.

01:58:04.000 That's why we could all have babies.

01:58:06.000 You know, like other animals that are very different.

01:58:09.000 Like, there's certain fish that can have babies with other fish, but those fish become infertile.

01:58:16.000 You know, and then like the same with like donkeys.

01:58:19.000 Like donkeys, they don't, they can't have babies, you know?

01:58:23.000 Like it's a, or mules rather, can have babies because it's a cross between a donkey and a horse.

01:58:29.000 And you can do it, but then it can't make babies. 0.85

01:58:32.000 Or a liger can't make babies. 1.00

01:58:34.000 Right?

01:58:34.000 Right.

01:58:35.000 No.

01:58:35.000 But people can make babies with people, obviously, because we're the same fucking thing.

01:58:38.000 But any culture of people.

01:58:42.000 Yes, yes.

01:58:43.000 Any culture of people can have babies with other cultures of people because we all come from the same source.

01:58:48.000 Kind of wipes out the whole racism argument.

01:58:50.000 It's the stupidest fucking thing ever because it's adaptive to environment.

01:58:54.000 Your DNA, my DNA, his DNA are 99.9% the same.

01:58:59.000 And that should be taught in elementary school.

01:59:01.000 Don't wait to teach it in college when people's minds are already solidified.

01:59:05.000 Yes.

01:59:06.000 Yes, yes.

01:59:07.000 I think that thing too, that exposure that you had to that Nazi coming to visit you, even though it's negative exposure, it's probably good to see. 0.62

01:59:15.000 You know, like when I was a kid, I was in high school and I was 14, Barney Frank, who wasn't openly gay then, but he was like one of the first openly gay members of Congress.

01:59:25.000 He lived near me.

01:59:26.000 He lived near me as well.

01:59:28.000 I lived in Massachusetts at the time, and he was from Massachusetts or was representative of Massachusetts.

01:59:33.000 When he lived in D.C. as a congressman.

01:59:35.000 Okay.

01:59:36.000 So this was before that, I guess, then.

01:59:39.000 So he was debating a member of what at the time was the, I believe it was the moral majority.

01:59:46.000 And it was this really goofy guy who came out and he had like an American flag on his lapel.

01:59:51.000 And I remember I was 14.

01:59:53.000 And, you know, when you're 14 and you see someone who's got this very, like, he was very anti-gay marriage, very anti-a lot of things.

02:00:01.000 But he was a clumsy, wasn't very eloquent, not a very compelling speaker.

02:00:08.000 And then Barney Frank went up, you know, so they both spoke.

02:00:12.000 This guy spoke, and then Barney Frank.

02:00:13.000 And Barney Frank was so much smoother, so much more articulate.

02:00:18.000 It was like, and for every, all the kids that I was in school with who left, they're like, that guy made more sense.

02:00:24.000 Like, this is a good thing to say.

02:00:26.000 It's good that they see someone with a very narrow-minded, bigoted perspective, and then someone who is more intelligent, has a much better vocabulary, smoother in their ability to disseminate information and to dissect the bad arguments of the other person.

02:00:44.000 So we all walked out of there.

02:00:46.000 We're like, okay.

02:00:47.000 And then, you know, I remember talking about it with my friends, like, yeah, that guy's a fucking moron, that first guy.

02:00:54.000 But nowadays, instead of that, you would only get one.

02:01:00.000 You would only get the one person talking.

02:01:02.000 But the one person talking without the other person talking is not as good.

02:01:06.000 And this idea of protecting kids from bad ideas because they don't want these kids to be indoctrinated by bad ideas, it doesn't work with human beings.

02:01:14.000 The way to get rid of bad ideas is to confront them with better ideas.

02:01:19.000 Exactly.

02:01:20.000 And the fear of having these kind of debates in schools is really dangerous.

02:01:25.000 It's dangerous for discourse.

02:01:27.000 It's dangerous for the development of the ability to have arguments and ideas and to be able to debate.

02:01:33.000 You have to see it done.

02:01:35.000 You have to see bad thinking, good thinking.

02:01:38.000 Ah, I get it.

02:01:40.000 This guy's, he's more, he's more clever, he's thinking better, he's got more information.

02:01:40.000 I get it.

02:01:46.000 This makes sense.

02:01:48.000 And if you don't allow people to make those distinctions on their own, if you just baby them and treat them like you can't expose them to these negative ideas, you miss out on the possibility of accepting nuance and an understanding of how a less sophisticated, less educated person can fall into these traps of these stupid ideologies.

02:02:10.000 You just nailed it right on the head, man.

02:02:15.000 Allowing them to see the difference.

02:02:17.000 Yes.

02:02:18.000 Okay.

02:02:19.000 Because people, how did you change those people, Daryl?

02:02:24.000 No, I didn't change them.

02:02:25.000 They changed themselves.

02:02:27.000 Because we all know one's perception is one's reality.

02:02:31.000 Whatever somebody perceives becomes their reality.

02:02:34.000 Even if it's not real, it's their reality.

02:02:36.000 You cannot change their reality.

02:02:39.000 And if you try, you're going to get resistance.

02:02:41.000 Right.

02:02:42.000 Because they only know what they know.

02:02:44.000 If you keep trying, it's going to escalate.

02:02:46.000 You're going to get loud and keep on trying.

02:02:48.000 It's going to explode.

02:02:50.000 You're going to be rolling around on the ground hitting each other or whatever, right?

02:02:53.000 Because all fights start with yelling and screaming.

02:02:56.000 So rather than try to attack somebody's reality and try to set their reality straight, don't do that.

02:03:04.000 You'll fail.

02:03:06.000 What you do is you offer them a better perception or perceptions.

02:03:11.000 And if they resonate with one of your perceptions, like showing them, this guy speaks very eloquently, that guy speaks like a moron.

02:03:18.000 Just let them see it.

02:03:20.000 That perception then resonates with them and they change their own reality.

02:03:24.000 So don't focus on how you're going to change somebody's reality.

02:03:27.000 Focus on what kind of perceptions can I offer that person that might resonate.

02:03:32.000 Right, right.

02:03:33.000 And just by example, but by who you are.

02:03:37.000 Because when people see someone speak and it resonates with them and see someone speak and you can sense how they think of things.

02:03:45.000 You can see the thought process.

02:03:48.000 And you go, well, who do I admire more?

02:03:50.000 He's like, he's thinking like this is an enlightened person.

02:03:50.000 I admire this guy.

02:03:54.000 This is a person who's thinking in a way that I want to be able to think like that, especially as a young kid.

02:04:00.000 You don't want to be a moron.

02:04:01.000 When you see someone you think is a moron, you're like, okay.

02:04:04.000 I'm glad I saw that guy because that guy looks like a fucking idiot.

02:04:07.000 Now this guy, oh, that guy makes more sense.

02:04:11.000 You know, when Jeff and I were in that Chris's grill, he felt he was getting along too well with the enemy being me.

02:04:20.000 And he started beating his fists on the table.

02:04:22.000 And that's shown in the documentary.

02:04:25.000 He was trying to get a rise out of me because I wasn't behaving the way he was expecting me to behave.

02:04:31.000 And so when he went into Nazi mode, I remained the same way. 0.68

02:04:36.000 And that freaked him out.

02:04:37.000 Oh, yeah.

02:04:38.000 Yes.

02:04:39.000 Oh, yeah.

02:04:40.000 What did it feel like to you?

02:04:42.000 Well, normally when you escalate, and we call this relational dialogue, and we do talks about this as well.

02:04:47.000 Oh, so it's a strategy?

02:04:48.000 It's a strategy.

02:04:50.000 Wow.

02:04:51.000 So when I tried to escalate, normally almost 99.9% of the time when you escalate, the other person escalates.

02:04:59.000 Daryl didn't escalate.

02:05:00.000 So I'm doing that and he just goes, hmm, and then just continues the conversation like I never even raised my voice.

02:05:07.000 So I'm like, you know, if you start yelling at somebody, they start yelling back.

02:05:10.000 Right.

02:05:12.000 So I'm blown away by this.

02:05:14.000 I'm like, why is this guy not reacting?

02:05:15.000 What's going on here?

02:05:17.000 And so now I'm really dialed in because I'm trying to figure him out.

02:05:21.000 And that's when it, and it was soon after that that you explained the story about how the Cub Scouts and how racism affected him growing up.

02:05:29.000 And then all of a sudden I'm thinking about, what if somebody would have done that to one of my kids?

02:05:35.000 Right.

02:05:35.000 And I saw Daryl's humanity in that moment.

02:05:38.000 So that's how he cracked that window open.

02:05:41.000 Jeff just made a very point that I see a lot of times, okay?

02:05:46.000 Because when things escalate, okay, when you come in to meet your adversary, you know, you know this person has a different viewpoint than you do.

02:05:55.000 And you're not going to let them try to change your viewpoint.

02:05:57.000 You're going to be stealed into what you believe, right?

02:06:00.000 So your ears are going to be blocking out anything that does not agree with your philosophy.

02:06:06.000 Right.

02:06:07.000 So in order to, and if you start escalating stuff, that blockout becomes even greater.

02:06:16.000 So you want that person's wall to come down.

02:06:20.000 And by not reacting, that person becomes curious.

02:06:25.000 He's like, where's this guy coming?

02:06:27.000 What's up with him?

02:06:28.000 He's not reacting the way most black people would react when I say whatever. 0.84

02:06:32.000 So as the wall comes down, the curiosity on his end rises.

02:06:38.000 And so now his ears are unblocked and he's ready to hear what I have to say.

02:06:44.000 But if I'm escalating and telling him my story while I'm escalating about getting thrown rocks, he'll probably say, oh, well, it wasn't me that did it, you know, so what's the deal?

02:06:53.000 Well, that's almost all conversations you have with people when you disagree.

02:06:58.000 If you elevate your language and start yelling and they start yelling, nobody figures out anything. 0.98

02:07:05.000 Nobody's ever won an argument.

02:07:07.000 It's just a lot of fuck you.

02:07:08.000 Yeah.

02:07:09.000 A lot of fucking going on.

02:07:12.000 It's like you don't get taught that in school.

02:07:16.000 That's unfortunate as well.

02:07:18.000 You don't get taught how to control your emotions.

02:07:22.000 And too many people, like when people say to someone, hey, shut the fuck up, like you, you think that person's going to listen?

02:07:30.000 Like most of the time, no.

02:07:32.000 Like if you're arguing about something and you do it, like it's almost always a bad idea.

02:07:37.000 You know, it just becomes a thing that people say.

02:07:41.000 Like someone says, fuck you to somebody.

02:07:42.000 And then it's not like the person goes, fuck me.

02:07:44.000 Oh, geez, fuck me.

02:07:45.000 No, they go, fuck you back.

02:07:47.000 Fuck you.

02:07:48.000 And then nothing gets done.

02:07:50.000 And this is when you're having, especially it's something so heavily charged, like a racial discussion.

02:08:01.000 As a human being, it's so important to think of how the other person is viewing your words.

02:08:07.000 Like how what are they accepting?

02:08:11.000 What do they see in you?

02:08:12.000 And if you turn yourself into an enemy and turn them into an enemy, nothing gets done.

02:08:18.000 So, you know, the cliche, misery loves company.

02:08:20.000 Yeah.

02:08:21.000 Negativity does promote negativity, right?

02:08:23.000 Yes.

02:08:23.000 Positivity promotes positivity.

02:08:26.000 So quick example.

02:08:27.000 You know, you're driving down the highway, you know, speed limits 55 miles an hour.

02:08:32.000 You're doing 75 miles an hour, right?

02:08:34.000 And you're getting ready to go over this hill and the oncoming traffic.

02:08:38.000 You know, some guy comes over the hill before you crest it, and this person is flashing the lights.

02:08:43.000 You don't know who's in that car, but they're flashing the lights.

02:08:47.000 So that means usually there's a cop on the other side working radar.

02:08:50.000 Or it could be construction or an accident.

02:08:52.000 Something, you need to slow down, something like that, right?

02:08:55.000 So you hit your brakes before you go over the hill.

02:08:59.000 And as soon as you crest the hill, oh, there's a cop with the radar gun.

02:09:02.000 Man, you know, you're going to have a $150 ticket, right?

02:09:06.000 Ruin your day.

02:09:08.000 And that stranger, total stranger, who you don't know what color he was, what religion he is, who he voted for, who his daddy was, whatever, that person saved you from getting that ticket, right?

02:09:18.000 So as you slowly cruise by the cop, he doesn't pull you over or whatever, you know, you're going to start flashing your lights at the oncoming traffic to save them.

02:09:30.000 But let's say, you know, you're coming up the hill and people are coming over the hill and nobody's flashing the lights.

02:09:35.000 You go over that hill, right?

02:09:37.000 There he is, pulling you over, you know, license registration, remain in your car, be with you in a moment, comes back, gives you that $150 ticket until you have a nice day.

02:09:51.000 You're ruined.

02:09:52.000 You lost $150.

02:09:56.000 Your insurance goes up because you got points on your license now.

02:09:59.000 All kinds of crap.

02:10:00.000 Your day is ruined.

02:10:01.000 So now as you continue down the street, you don't flash your lights either.

02:10:04.000 That's their problem.

02:10:06.000 So, you know, misery loves company.

02:10:08.000 Negativity promotes negativity.

02:10:10.000 A random act of kindness from a stranger, all right?

02:10:15.000 The guy could have been having a bad day and you flashed your lights and you saved him $150.

02:10:20.000 Now he's having a better day.

02:10:22.000 He's going to flash his lights.

02:10:24.000 That's a good analogy.

02:10:26.000 Yeah.

02:10:27.000 And more humans need to not worry about somebody's skin color or who's in the car or who they voted for.

02:10:33.000 Just do acts of kindness.

02:10:35.000 Stop dehumanizing people.

02:10:37.000 You know, the guy in the car is just as human as you are.

02:10:40.000 And you don't even know who he voted for, but he flashes lights at you and saved you some money.

02:10:44.000 Yeah.

02:10:47.000 Are you hopeful with all the work that you've done and all the people that you've removed from the Nazi Party and the Ku Klux Klan and seeing how your message resonates with people?

02:10:58.000 And like, I know every time I have you on, I get all these messages from people who go, wow, that guy's amazing.

02:11:03.000 Like, what an incredible journey.

02:11:05.000 And it's like, I know it resonates with a lot of people, but there's still so much fucking hatred in the world.

02:11:11.000 Do you feel hopeful?

02:11:12.000 Do you think things are moving in a generally good direction?

02:11:16.000 I do, Joe.

02:11:17.000 I do.

02:11:18.000 And I'll tell you what.

02:11:21.000 I think right now we are in the best time.

02:11:25.000 I mean, it may seem like things are very divisive right now, and they are, okay, politically, racially, whatever else.

02:11:31.000 A lot of wars going on, religious wars, and racism, anti-Semitism arise in that, and all kinds of stuff.

02:11:38.000 But yes, we are in the best time right now because people, they don't want to be in this time.

02:11:47.000 I don't know if I can have kids and raise them in this environment, that kind of thing.

02:11:51.000 Listen, we are in the best time because people are of the mindset, well, racism is over.

02:11:51.000 No.

02:11:57.000 We had a black president.

02:11:58.000 There is no more racism.

02:12:00.000 No, there's still plenty of racism.

02:12:04.000 Before you could turn a blind eye to it, if I don't see it, I don't hear it, then it doesn't exist.

02:12:09.000 But now, every time you turn your head, it's there, it's there, it's there.

02:12:12.000 So you can't escape it.

02:12:14.000 Now is the best time to address it, right?

02:12:17.000 When it's in your face.

02:12:19.000 You go on vacation, you're going to drive your car to three states away.

02:12:25.000 And you get 10 miles down the road and your car is making some weird noise.

02:12:29.000 Well, you don't want to get out of state and have your car break down.

02:12:32.000 So you turn around, go back to your mechanic, say, hey, man, hop in right around the block with me, figure out this noise.

02:12:38.000 He gets in, rides around with you.

02:12:40.000 The noise stopped.

02:12:41.000 He tells you, well, I don't hear it.

02:12:43.000 I can't fix what I don't hear.

02:12:45.000 But if he hears it, oh, yeah, you know, that's one of your spark blows loose or something or whatever.

02:12:51.000 Today, we cannot turn a blind eye.

02:12:53.000 It's everywhere.

02:12:54.000 So now is the best time to fix it, address it.

02:12:57.000 Especially because of social media.

02:12:59.000 Yeah, absolutely.

02:13:01.000 And I tell people, you know, people say, well, Jeff or Daryl or whoever, you know, you guys are on the front line.

02:13:07.000 You know, I mean, I want to help, but I don't know that I could sit down and talk to somebody who hates me.

02:13:15.000 You know, I'd probably go off on them or I'd be afraid or whatever.

02:13:18.000 They don't want to be on the front line.

02:13:20.000 That's fine.

02:13:21.000 Don't be on the front line.

02:13:23.000 You can be on the back line.

02:13:25.000 You can be on the sideline.

02:13:27.000 You can be online.

02:13:29.000 Pick a line that you feel comfortable on and get on it.

02:13:32.000 And no one line is any more important than any other line.

02:13:37.000 And what I mean by that is this.

02:13:38.000 You can probably tell me your favorite movie.

02:13:40.000 You can probably tell me how many Oscars it won.

02:13:42.000 You can tell me who the lead actress and lead actor were.

02:13:45.000 All right.

02:13:46.000 But those are the people on the front line, the lead actress and actor.

02:13:49.000 You know who they are.

02:13:51.000 But do you know who was the guy or guys operating the camera?

02:13:56.000 You don't know their names, even though they're listed at the end of the movie because the credits run on for 10 minutes, right?

02:13:56.000 Probably not.

02:14:02.000 Those are the people working on the back line.

02:14:04.000 The person hanging the lights, you know his name?

02:14:06.000 No.

02:14:07.000 How about the makeup artist?

02:14:08.000 The person who got the wardrobe together.

02:14:08.000 No.

02:14:11.000 Those are people working on the sideline.

02:14:13.000 Who put the trailer on the TV, the commercial to promote the movie or on the internet?

02:14:19.000 Those are people working online to promote that movie.

02:14:22.000 Every one of those lines was important to that movie getting that many Oscars and becoming your favorite movie.

02:14:28.000 So no one line is any more important than any other line.

02:14:32.000 And so I tell people, look, you don't have to be on the front line.

02:14:35.000 Pick where you feel comfortable and let's all work together for the common goal.

02:14:40.000 So if someone's listening to this and say, okay, what Daryl's saying really resonates with me, how do I get started?

02:14:46.000 How do I contribute?

02:14:48.000 What would you suggest?

02:14:49.000 Email Jeff Scoop at Beyond Barriers.

02:14:52.000 Email DarylDavis at DarylDavis.com.

02:14:55.000 Or I co-founded an organization called the Pro-Human Foundation.

02:15:00.000 And, you know, you mentioned anti-racist.

02:15:02.000 You talk about people always anti-this, anti-the, anti-that, right?

02:15:05.000 You know, I hear so much of that.

02:15:07.000 I say, you know what?

02:15:08.000 People keep talking about what they're against.

02:15:11.000 Why don't we talk about what we're for?

02:15:13.000 That's more positive.

02:15:14.000 Right.

02:15:15.000 I am not anti-racist.

02:15:17.000 Now, what does that mean?

02:15:17.000 All right.

02:15:18.000 People say, you're not anti-racist?

02:15:20.000 What's that mean?

02:15:22.000 If you use it in terms of a noun, the racist being a noun, I'm not anti-the person.

02:15:29.000 I am anti-the person's ideology.

02:15:32.000 I'm not anti-racist.

02:15:34.000 I'm anti-anti-racism.

02:15:37.000 I'm anti-the-ism. 0.99

02:15:38.000 I am pro-human is what I am.

02:15:41.000 So I want to talk about what I'm for.

02:15:43.000 It's all, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

02:15:45.000 So contact the prohumanfoundation.org.

02:15:49.000 Contact Beyond Barriers, Parents for Peace, which I'm a part of as well, you know, and we'll talk about how you can get involved in being pro and dispel.

02:15:59.000 You know, don't be against the person, be against the message, you know, if you want to disagree with something.

02:16:05.000 I think that's a beautiful way to end this.

02:16:07.000 Thank you.

02:16:08.000 Thank you for everything you do.

02:16:08.000 Thank you, Joe.

02:16:09.000 I mean, you're a really extraordinary person.

02:16:11.000 And the line you're on is the online.

02:16:13.000 So thank you, my friend.

02:16:14.000 My pleasure.

02:16:15.000 My pleasure.

02:16:16.000 And Jeff, thank you for, you know, first of all, just spreading this message and having the courage to accept these bad decisions that you've made and how you got trapped and just to let people know how a person like yourself, who does seem like such a nice and intelligent guy, could get sucked into such an awful ideology.

02:16:37.000 And I think that's going to help a lot of people.

02:16:39.000 I really do.

02:16:40.000 Thanks so much for having us.

02:16:41.000 It's been an incredible honor to be here.

02:16:43.000 My pleasure.

02:16:44.000 So your book, American Nazis, is available now.

02:16:46.000 And Daryl, your book, Clan Whisperer, also available.

02:16:50.000 I used one of your quotes there.

02:16:51.000 Thank you.

02:16:52.000 Oh, did you?

02:16:53.000 Oh, beautiful.

02:16:54.000 Did you do the audio for this?

02:16:55.000 Did you do an audio version of it?

02:16:57.000 Like Jeff, it's a work in progress.

02:16:59.000 All right.

02:17:00.000 Well, thank you, Daryl.

02:17:01.000 Thank you very much.

02:17:02.000 Appreciate it.

The Joe Rogan Experience - October 23, 2025

Joe Rogan Experience #2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

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Transcript