The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan.

00:00:07.000 Podcast by night, all day.

00:00:12.000 That's wild.

00:00:13.000 I went in because I came in from I am.

00:00:15.000 I think I was living at the time.

00:00:16.000 And I went in and I'm sitting in the waiting room.

00:00:21.000 And it was like on a Sunday because it was, I was like, I'm only in town for you.

00:00:25.000 And Stan was like, I'll come into the office.

00:00:26.000 I'm like, thank you so much.

00:00:27.000 I had to have some filling or whatever I needed.

00:00:29.000 It's kind of an emergency.

00:00:31.000 So I'm sitting in the thing and I'm not getting called in, but the ladies are just, no, no, there's not even a receptionist. 0.87

00:00:39.000 And Stan comes out with his mask.

00:00:41.000 No, the first thing I hear is, pig fucker, fucking fucking pig fucker. 0.99

00:00:46.000 And I'm like, what is happening in there?

00:00:47.000 It's in the other room.

00:00:48.000 And Stan comes in with his maximum.

00:00:50.000 He goes, sorry.

00:00:51.000 He goes, I'll be with you soon.

00:00:52.000 He goes, I got Hunter in the chair.

00:00:54.000 And he goes back.

00:00:55.000 And I hear, listen to Hunter Thompson swear for like 15 minutes.

00:00:59.000 I'm like, this is amazing.

00:01:00.000 And then Stan goes, okay, come on back.

00:01:01.000 And Hunter's kind of getting out.

00:01:03.000 And he goes, oh, you're sitting down with this guy?

00:01:06.000 He's a fucking assassin.

00:01:09.000 And then he goes, and he's got this jug of clear, of clear fluid.

00:01:15.000 And he's like, you're going to need a sip of this.

00:01:17.000 And I'm like, oh my God, this is fucking Hunter S. Thompson's moonshine.

00:01:21.000 This is Ethel Alcohol.

00:01:23.000 I'm like, this is fucking amazing, Tal.

00:01:25.000 I'm like, I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds and I'm getting a sip.

00:01:29.000 And it was like 10 in the morning on a Sunday.

00:01:31.000 Yeah.

00:01:32.000 He was halfway through the drug fucking like where was this?

00:01:36.000 In Beverly Hills.

00:01:38.000 Yeah.

00:01:40.000 Yeah.

00:01:40.000 Brentwood.

00:01:41.000 Brentwood was in his office.

00:01:42.000 Oh my God.

00:01:43.000 That's amazing.

00:01:44.000 It really was amazing.

00:01:45.000 It was, it was, and so I had probably a total of seven minutes, you know, with him.

00:01:49.000 And it was like, I could not have been a better seven minutes.

00:01:52.000 That's incredible.

00:01:54.000 I went to the Woody Creek Tavern just to go there because I know he used to go there.

00:01:57.000 Yeah.

00:01:58.000 And like, you could like feel him in the building.

00:02:00.000 You know, there's all the pictures on the walls.

00:02:02.000 It's a cool little place.

00:02:03.000 Yeah, I mean, those books, the fucking Hell's Angels and, you know, Fear and Loathing, it's some of the best writing.

00:02:09.000 I just fucking like, he really had his own voice, Rom Diary.

00:02:12.000 He was spectacular.

00:02:13.000 You know, it was like really descriptive and punchy and fucking interesting and fucked up.

00:02:17.000 And he also just lived that life.

00:02:19.000 It was like fear and loathing changed my life.

00:02:21.000 Like reading that book was like, what the fuck?

00:02:24.000 Like, what is this guy doing?

00:02:26.000 These grown men out there, balding grown men with spectacles running around with us.

00:02:31.000 I think there's lizards in the fucking lounge.

00:02:33.000 Like, the guy's listening.

00:02:36.000 He's got a day trip bag filled with acid.

00:02:39.000 Like, what the fuck are you doing, man?

00:02:42.000 And it's great.

00:02:43.000 It's like you fucking feel like you're on the adventure with him, you know?

00:02:43.000 Shit.

00:02:46.000 Yeah.

00:02:47.000 No, it's a, it's, it's interesting to watch the evolution of his writing, too.

00:02:51.000 You know, like, I read Hell's Angels, and it's like very different.

00:02:55.000 You know, but it's early when he's kind of restrained.

00:02:57.000 And it was quite like, for that, I think it was edgy sort of for the time.

00:03:00.000 Yeah.

00:03:01.000 Like, oh, you're going to get beaten, chain whipped, and stomped by the angels.

00:03:04.000 And that was really edgy.

00:03:05.000 And by the time they got into what's Fear and Loathing 72 or something like that, he was just, yeah, it was gone.

00:03:11.000 He found his voice.

00:03:12.000 He did find it.

00:03:13.000 He was supposed to be covering a race for like Sports Illustrated.

00:03:18.000 That's a fear and loathing when I read this cake.

00:03:21.000 I fucking lost my mind.

00:03:24.000 Great.

00:03:25.000 It's great, Hunter.

00:03:26.000 We'll take it.

00:03:27.000 Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys.

00:03:29.000 I've met you before.

00:03:30.000 Very nice to meet you.

00:03:31.000 Thank you very much.

00:03:32.000 I love the fucking movie.

00:03:33.000 Thanks for watching.

00:03:33.000 The rep is great.

00:03:34.000 It's really good.

00:03:34.000 Thanks.

00:03:34.000 Thank you.

00:03:35.000 It's so original and it's so different.

00:03:38.000 And it's, you know, it's like, I love those kind of movies, but it's not like any one that I've ever seen before.

00:03:44.000 Really solid movie.

00:03:45.000 Thanks, dude.

00:03:46.000 It was awesome.

00:03:46.000 Thank you.

00:03:47.000 So much better than you hating it in a second.

00:03:50.000 The interviews were like, so I saw the movie.

00:03:52.000 Anyway, how you guys thought?

00:03:53.000 We've had a lot of those the press junkets where they come in and the first thing that you know the movie sucks if they don't ask you anything about the movie.

00:04:00.000 They come in and go, so how you been?

00:04:02.000 You're like, oh, shit, this is going to be bad.

00:04:04.000 Is it weird?

00:04:06.000 Like the transformation of the film industry seems to like a lot of it is moving towards these big streaming movies now.

00:04:14.000 Absolutely.

00:04:15.000 I mean, look, it's because where most people have gone to watch them.

00:04:18.000 Like used to be the only place you'd go see movies in the 40s.

00:04:18.000 Yeah.

00:04:22.000 Like every American went to the movie every week, basically.

00:04:24.000 But it was because it was that or watched the cows walk by.

00:04:27.000 You know, that was the only, and then TV comes around and it's little and you see these little serials.

00:04:33.000 But, you know, what happened was now this is why it's totally changed the whole thing because you have 300 million people, 30, whatever is watching, you know, Netflix.

00:04:42.000 And it's a lot harder to get people to go into the movies.

00:04:45.000 There's also YouTube.

00:04:46.000 There's also TikTok.

00:04:46.000 There's also my kids.

00:04:47.000 Like, it's hard to get them excited about a movie.

00:04:50.000 Which that's what we had.

00:04:50.000 Yeah.

00:04:51.000 I mean, yeah, that was our teen years.

00:04:55.000 We're just every weekend we're at the movies.

00:04:57.000 Yeah.

00:04:57.000 There's just no question about it.

00:04:59.000 You were going to go and usually not get into one because there were too many people.

00:05:01.000 And then you just see what else is playing and go to that.

00:05:04.000 Well, it seems like it was kind of slipping away because so many people were watching streaming already.

00:05:08.000 And then COVID came around and everyone was locked down and no one was going to the movie theater.

00:05:12.000 And then it just set.

00:05:14.000 I had this like drama that was coming out like right when COVID hit.

00:05:17.000 I had a liked movie, performance movie, it's not an alcoholic guy whose kid, who kid guys, kid dies and becomes an alcoholic.

00:05:23.000 It's a dark movie, but I loved it.

00:05:25.000 And I could tell like, we're fucked.

00:05:27.000 No one's going to go to see the theater to see this movie.

00:05:29.000 And it wasn't even that streaming really blew up.

00:05:31.000 You know, of course, during COVID.

00:05:33.000 So, you know, look, they rushed it onto streaming.

00:05:35.000 People actually saw it.

00:05:36.000 I was like, well, all things being equal, I'd like people to see it, you know?

00:05:39.000 And it's not like my dad had an 11-inch black and white TV.

00:05:42.000 And that's what was TV viewing.

00:05:43.000 Now, it's like $200.

00:05:44.000 You got a fucking 65-inch flat screen and good sound.

00:05:48.000 So, of course, people are willing to.

00:05:50.000 And then streamers also started making great shows.

00:05:53.000 You have adolescents.

00:05:54.000 I think that is the best things ever done.

00:05:54.000 I don't know if you saw.

00:05:57.000 I haven't seen that a lot.

00:05:58.000 It's unbelievable.

00:05:59.000 What is it?

00:05:59.000 Oh, my God.

00:06:01.000 I don't want to spoil too much of it.

00:06:03.000 It's only four episodes.

00:06:04.000 They're all one shot.

00:06:05.000 They're all one shot.

00:06:06.000 Each episode is one entire shot.

00:06:08.000 Whoa.

00:06:08.000 So the cast, they took, I think, I talked to the director about that.

00:06:11.000 The cast took, I think, a week to rehearse each one and then a week to shoot it.

00:06:16.000 And so they do it twice a day.

00:06:18.000 It's the full hour they would choreograph the entire entire stuff.

00:06:22.000 Yeah, it's really.

00:06:23.000 And then the acting is raped. 0.98

00:06:24.000 But that's the, I mean, just dismiss that, even you could even call it a gimmick.

00:06:29.000 It's not in this case.

00:06:30.000 But the performances and the writing and what it's about, it's as good as anything you'll see.

00:06:38.000 It's phenomenal.

00:06:39.000 Netflix.

00:06:39.000 What is it on?

00:06:40.000 Yeah.

00:06:40.000 Netflix.

00:06:42.000 This is not even an anomaly.

00:06:43.000 There's Baby Rangers.

00:06:44.000 There's fucking succession.

00:06:45.000 There's Game Bazaars.

00:06:46.000 There's Ozarks.

00:06:48.000 It's just like, okay, well, they're doing great shit out there.

00:06:52.000 It's not like the sort of implied thing before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as good.

00:06:57.000 Not as interesting.

00:06:57.000 It's a serious thing.

00:06:58.000 When we started, there was a different George Clooney, for instance, like there was a big thing.

00:07:03.000 He very famously, you know, became this superstar on ER.

00:07:07.000 That show, 40 million people a week were watching that show.

00:07:10.000 It was the biggest thing, right?

00:07:12.000 Because there were only a few channels to tune into, and that show was the biggest one.

00:07:16.000 And George never renegotiated his contract.

00:07:18.000 He wanted to work in movies, and it was like, you can't go from TV to movie.

00:07:21.000 It's a very few people can do it.

00:07:24.000 And he really strategically and kind of patiently, like, he joked that on the last episode he was on, Anthony Edwards, you know, his co-star was making a million bucks for the episode and he was making, you know, 20 grand or whatever his deal was.

00:07:38.000 Like he could have renegotiated, but he would have had to give more years.

00:07:41.000 That's how bad he wanted to get off TV and do movies.

00:07:44.000 That's how bad he wanted to get off of the biggest TV show in the world because there was such a big kind of level change between features and TV.

00:07:53.000 Well, it was a giant difference in quality.

00:07:55.000 It was also the breaking it up for commercials.

00:07:58.000 It was just a different thing.

00:07:59.000 There's all those rules.

00:08:01.000 You can't say this, you can't do that, you can't swear, not all the can of violence and all the things people want to see in movies, you know.

00:08:06.000 And then also it wasn't as interesting.

00:08:09.000 And then now that's tethered to these schedules and all the stuff, whereas you get this shit, like you don't have a schedule and you can take a bunch of risks.

00:08:17.000 And that started happening.

00:08:19.000 And then it was kind of like, well, this is just as good, if not better, than what's in the movies.

00:08:23.000 And so that's what we're doing.

00:08:24.000 Well, then movies started to move towards more IP.

00:08:27.000 And because it was hard to get people to come to the movies, everyone got scared and thought, well, you have to have to be a sequel or a superhero movie.

00:08:32.000 And so an interesting little movie, kind of in the 90s when we kind of came onto the scene, there were a lot of really good independent movies that were being made.

00:08:42.000 It was a really great time to be making movies.

00:08:46.000 They were making daring movies.

00:08:48.000 And then everyone just got way more conservative because it's huge.

00:08:53.000 The business is so different theatrically in streaming because to put out a movie theatrically, you have to put so much more money behind it to publicize.

00:09:01.000 You're trying to get everybody.

00:09:03.000 You're not spending about what the budget was to make it to advertise it.

00:09:06.000 It's like 50% of the theatrical movie.

00:09:07.000 Yeah, because you split it with the movie house, right, through the exhibit.

00:09:10.000 So a $25 million movie to break even, you got to make $100 million.

00:09:13.000 And so you got to get everybody to not only know about the movie, but to show up that Friday night, like that specific time, you know, for that specific movie.

00:09:22.000 And so and to cut through all the noise that people are contending with.

00:09:26.000 Well, it just becomes about risk.

00:09:28.000 So they don't want to make something new because it's such an investment.

00:09:28.000 And nobody wants to take the risk.

00:09:31.000 We're going to lose our fucking money.

00:09:33.000 And the streamers have stepped into that.

00:09:35.000 And like, no, you know, you didn't have to have a star.

00:09:37.000 You could try something more interesting or didn't have to be a superhero movie, whatever it was.

00:09:42.000 And also, I think it's like, you know, frankly, like people my age, like, it's, first of all, it's expensive, right?

00:09:48.000 You take your whole family, it's $100.

00:09:50.000 You're on a streaming service, $20 a month.

00:09:51.000 You can watch all you want.

00:09:52.000 So you can't be cavalier about, like, you're just going to price however the fuck you want and expect everyone to like be indifferent to that.

00:09:59.000 And then, you know, also, you know, the idea of like, for me, you know, there's a lot of stuff I make that decision.

00:10:05.000 Like, do I want to see The Odyssey on a big screen?

00:10:08.000 Fucking deaf. 0.99

00:10:09.000 I went to a theater to just watch the trailer for that movie.

00:10:11.000 And, you know, did I, one battle after another, I wanted to go see in the theater.

00:10:15.000 But there's movies of people that I really like and respect where, yeah, and I got a good system and shit, but I'm like, look, I'll watch it and I might get tired or I won't pause it and take a piss or the kids, you know, whatever it is.

00:10:24.000 That's conducive to my lifestyle, you know?

00:10:27.000 And so I even see a few.

00:10:29.000 I think most people are, yeah.

00:10:30.000 But there is the experience of seeing it with a bunch of other people.

00:10:33.000 Seeing an awesome movie with a bunch of other people, it's like a shared experience.

00:10:36.000 100%.

00:10:37.000 I always like an attention.

00:10:39.000 Way more attention.

00:10:40.000 Like when I went to see One Battle on IMAX, that feeling, there's nothing like that feeling.

00:10:45.000 I took two of my kids and two of my nephews and my wife and we all went and it was just, it was like, and you're in with a bunch of strangers, but people in your community and you're having this experience together.

00:10:57.000 I always say it's more like going to church.

00:11:00.000 Like you show up at an appointed time.

00:11:02.000 You know what I mean?

00:11:03.000 It doesn't wait for you.

00:11:05.000 Versus the experience of watching at home, I think, you're watching in a room, the lights are on, other shit's going on.

00:11:12.000 The kids are running around, the dogs are running around, whatever it is.

00:11:14.000 You know what I mean?

00:11:15.000 It's just a very different level of attention that you're willing to, or that you're able to give to it.

00:11:21.000 And that has a big effect.

00:11:22.000 And it also ends up having an effect or is starting to have an effect on how you make movies.

00:11:27.000 Like, for instance, Netflix, you know, a standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have like three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third.

00:11:39.000 You know, you kind of kind of ramp up in the big one with all the explosions, and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act.

00:11:44.000 That's your kind of finale.

00:11:47.000 And now they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody?

00:11:52.000 We want people to stay tuned in.

00:11:55.000 And, you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people are on their phones while they're watching.

00:12:03.000 You know what I mean?

00:12:04.000 And so then it's going to really start to infringe on how we're telling people.

00:12:09.000 But then you look at adolescents, it didn't do anything.

00:12:11.000 It didn't do any of that.

00:12:12.000 And it's fucking great.

00:12:13.000 So I think it's dark too.

00:12:13.000 You know what I mean?

00:12:15.000 It's tragic and intense.

00:12:17.000 It's like a guy who finds out his kids accused of murder, and it's like, you know, and there's long shots in the back of their head.

00:12:25.000 They get in the car.

00:12:26.000 Nobody says anything.

00:12:27.000 I think there are those.

00:12:29.000 Look, these are the things that you're doing.

00:12:30.000 I wish that were that.

00:12:31.000 It feels more like the exception.

00:12:33.000 It's so masterfully made that it feels a little more like the exception.

00:12:37.000 I hope it's not.

00:12:37.000 My feeling is just that it demonstrates that you don't need to do any of that shit to get people, you know what I mean?

00:12:42.000 Like, and I think, you know, yes, you know, like, look, hey, the town had the actions in the first five minutes.

00:12:48.000 Like, it's a, it's a common trick that you would go, like, let me grab them and get them invested.

00:12:48.000 You know what I mean?

00:12:53.000 And it's like the movies that start with the hero hanging from the cliff.

00:12:56.000 And now we're going to flash back to the beginning and tell you how they got there.

00:13:01.000 It's, you know, I always feel like, you know, complaining about it makes me feel like one of these guys was like, when I was a boy, like, you always want to freeze the culture at the time when you, I don't know, felt more like, you know, we used to have these phones.

00:13:12.000 The fuck are all these phones?

00:13:13.000 And everybody's looking at their phone.

00:13:14.000 I get it.

00:13:15.000 Yes, it's true.

00:13:16.000 Also, it's like supply and demand.

00:13:18.000 People want to look at their phone because they can look at TikTok.

00:13:20.000 They want, you know, they're going to do that.

00:13:22.000 I think what you can do is make shit the best you can, make it really good.

00:13:26.000 And, you know, people can still go to the movies.

00:13:29.000 Not like, I think we have this idea that's like an existential threat.

00:13:32.000 Everything that comes along is going to destroy everything.

00:13:34.000 Instead of like, what history suggests is that there's like marginal encroachments, things shift.

00:13:39.000 Yep, as television came along, there was less theater going.

00:13:42.000 That's still going to happen.

00:13:43.000 And people are still going to go to the movies because of what you said.

00:13:45.000 Like, it feels like a cool thing to do.

00:13:47.000 I'm going to go see the Odyssey, I guarantee you, in a theater, you know, no matter what.

00:13:52.000 Fewer of them, you could argue that's because I have more choice or whatever it is.

00:13:56.000 It's hard to fight supply and demand.

00:13:58.000 That's the trick, right?

00:13:59.000 If people want to watch a bunch of stuff at home, because they invested in TVs and costs us money, they will.

00:14:05.000 So, okay.

00:14:06.000 But the upside of that is like, I can try to do something.

00:14:10.000 Hopefully, that's like that actually doesn't need to, you know, have the most urgency to get you to come to the theater with your family.

00:14:17.000 That's a little more experimental or risk-taking or whatever in that way.

00:14:20.000 Well, you got to adapt.

00:14:22.000 I mean, there's no way you're going to change people's viewing habits now.

00:14:25.000 I mean, what percentage of Netflix is actually watched on phones?

00:14:28.000 It's got to be pretty high, which is insane.

00:14:31.000 Yeah.

00:14:32.000 Even watching on a laptop for me is kind of like, kind of sucks.

00:14:36.000 It sucks.

00:14:37.000 That's a joke that I like to make with every director I work with.

00:14:40.000 Like when they're really puzzling over a shot or really grinding out something, I go, you know, it's not going to look as good on the phone when everyone gets angry.

00:14:51.000 No, that's going to look great.

00:14:52.000 This fucking big, but keep fucking around and lighting that wall.

00:14:56.000 It is weird, though, the concern for the algorithm, like making sure that people watch.

00:15:00.000 Like, look, we've got data that shows within the first five minutes.

00:15:03.000 When this happens, they tune out.

00:15:04.000 So let's like my buddy Tony Henchcliffe.

00:15:06.000 He's got Kill Tony, and now it's on Netflix.

00:15:08.000 And so they're giving him notes now.

00:15:10.000 And they can give him like, but they're not telling him what to do, but they're saying, like, this is when people are tuning out.

00:15:15.000 And so let's, you know, just so you have that data, now decide how you want to edit things.

00:15:20.000 It's like, oh, yeah, it's a slippery slope.

00:15:22.000 It is because it's like the bar for walking out of a movie theater is a lot higher than from just changing the channel.

00:15:35.000 Right.

00:15:35.000 And oftentimes, you know, directors will want to make a movie that is challenging and upsetting.

00:15:35.000 Right.

00:15:41.000 And I remember Terry Kinney, my friend, great actor, and he told me about the experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New York for the first time, right, in 76 or whenever it came out.

00:15:52.000 And he said, what I remember is not only the movie, but I remember standing at the back because I had got up.

00:15:59.000 I got up out of my seat and I went, but I couldn't bring myself to leave because I was so invested.

00:16:03.000 But I was so, he goes, I was standing at the back by the door watching the movie.

00:16:07.000 And he goes, and there were two other people standing next to me who were doing the same thing.

00:16:11.000 Just because they were disturbed?

00:16:12.000 Because the movie was disturbing them so much.

00:16:14.000 Wow.

00:16:15.000 Which is not a bad thing, right?

00:16:17.000 So had that been on Netflix or Amazon, you know, if somebody says, oh, I'm disturbed and they turn and they change the channel.

00:16:22.000 Yeah.

00:16:23.000 Like that doesn't mean you shouldn't make Taxi Driver.

00:16:25.000 Right.

00:16:26.000 Like the investment of going to a place is much greater.

00:16:26.000 That's true.

00:16:30.000 Yeah.

00:16:30.000 And one of the values of that is that you could look at movies from the 70s and the first act was 25, 30 minutes.

00:16:35.000 You know, the verdict for this is a great movie.

00:16:35.000 Right.

00:16:37.000 It takes a long time to get.

00:16:39.000 You're the deer hunter.

00:16:40.000 Oh, yeah.

00:16:40.000 I mean, it's.

00:16:41.000 And you're right.

00:16:42.000 Like what you're saying, the threshold for walkout is real, like any scene like, ah, I want to watch Naked Alone.

00:16:47.000 You know, you flip the fucking.

00:16:49.000 So you are battling that.

00:16:51.000 And, you know, I watched Le Mans the other night, Steve McQueen.

00:16:55.000 Yeah.

00:16:55.000 And no one talks for like five minutes.

00:16:58.000 There's no talking.

00:16:59.000 It's just a bunch of stuff getting done.

00:17:01.000 Just a bunch of people doing things.

00:17:02.000 And it's like, wow, you could make a difference.

00:17:04.000 You could let it air out back then.

00:17:07.000 They had a different respect for what it was.

00:17:10.000 Like you were telling a story and you're going to let it air out.

00:17:13.000 Well, they also knew where their audience was.

00:17:15.000 They were in a theater.

00:17:17.000 Part of it was they wanted to come there.

00:17:18.000 I mean, the great story I like is the first time they debuted a movie, guys, with a projector in a room full of people, it was a movie of a train pulling into the station.

00:17:29.000 So they put the reel up and they did the demonstration and they showed the people and everybody missed it because they were turned around staring at the projector.

00:17:35.000 They never fucking seen anything like that.

00:17:38.000 You know, it's like the technology's upstage.

00:17:40.000 But like you come for an event, come for a thing.

00:17:43.000 That's part of it.

00:17:43.000 We're all going to be here.

00:17:45.000 It's, I don't know.

00:17:47.000 There's competing arguments.

00:17:48.000 You can think, well, what do you get to do?

00:17:50.000 And some people just go ahead and fuck it.

00:17:51.000 Like Jim Cameron's the avatar.

00:17:53.000 I'm going to make my three-hour movie and people are going to come and great.

00:17:56.000 And people say, oh, well, you can't have a three-hour movie.

00:17:56.000 You know what I mean?

00:17:59.000 And he's like, well, I'm Jim Cameron and I've actually got the number one and two and movies.

00:18:03.000 I think I got this.

00:18:04.000 He goes ahead and does it.

00:18:06.000 History is full of people who got told a bunch of conventional wisdom and were like, yeah, but we're going to do something different.

00:18:11.000 And as it turns out, like, that's actually what people want too, is not for you to just repeat the other shit that's been done before and worked before.

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00:19:10.000 One of the things I read that I thought was really fucking cool is you guys set it up so that if this film performs well, the entire crew gets bonuses.

00:19:20.000 That's awesome.

00:19:20.000 Yeah.

00:19:22.000 Yeah.

00:19:23.000 Hopefully it's successful.

00:19:25.000 I think it'll be a shithouse if it doesn't.

00:19:27.000 It's a fucking great movie, man.

00:19:28.000 It's a fun movie.

00:19:29.000 But it's good, but it's not like, you know, fucking we're saints or a philanthropist.

00:19:34.000 It's completely self-serving, in my opinion.

00:19:36.000 Because in order to do the job well, everybody who's working on it has to be really invested and give a shit about the result, not their paycheck only.

00:19:44.000 And sometimes you're worried a crew that just happen to be great anyway, even though they don't really have to care about it and they do.

00:19:50.000 And what we saw was like, that makes your movie better.

00:19:54.000 And then there's just the thing of like the business is changing.

00:19:56.000 You see these strikes and work stops and all these fucking questions.

00:19:59.000 In order for this, I think, to survive and to be, you know, a good middle-class fucking artist, you know, artisanal craftsman job, we've got 1,200 people that, you know, need to have reliable jobs.

00:20:13.000 And part of the negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all going to get fucked.

00:20:18.000 Like we have no participation.

00:20:19.000 Like used to working on movies and happens to actors too, where you go, oh, we all invested.

00:20:24.000 It was really hard and we fucking put in the extra effort.

00:20:26.000 Somebody else walked away with all the success.

00:20:30.000 And my theory was with Matt was like, how about where let's say, okay, it's just fairness, right?

00:20:36.000 If this thing actually blows up and does really well, you should benefit from that.

00:20:41.000 People have been, you know, kind of given sort of promises of participation at back end haven't come true.

00:20:46.000 So this is like the crew, everyone got their rates, everyone got their hourly, no one cut anything.

00:20:50.000 This is just an exercise in actually proving that it's not bullshit.

00:20:54.000 That if there's success, you'll get some extra, a little success, a little extra, a little more, a little more.

00:21:00.000 Like you said, because it's fair, you know, and in success, the people who made the movie should, you know, should participate in that.

00:21:08.000 And also with this one, which was important to us, there's a, you know, they delineate above the line and below the line, right?

00:21:13.000 Like above the line being like us, the director, and the producers, and below the line being kind of the more blue-collar side of our industry.

00:21:22.000 And like painters, grainsmen, camera babies, everybody else, drivers.

00:21:26.000 And so we just want it.

00:21:28.000 And believe, like when we started this company, we were like, look, you know, we know who makes our movie better, right?

00:21:34.000 It's not, it's, it's, like, they've, this has kind of been mispriced the whole time.

00:21:38.000 Like the economics have been wrong.

00:21:40.000 Like when there's a, when there's a big success, everybody who had a hand on it.

00:21:44.000 Because you see a great director that people rely on or an actor that's considered bankable.

00:21:48.000 They're all going, okay, I need all my people with yeah, every great director I've worked with, and I've worked with a lot of them, they have their regular crew members that they that are ride or die with these people.

00:21:58.000 Because, I mean, and you said it to me when we were starting the company.

00:22:00.000 You were like, you know, those department heads, you know, who are each handling like, you know, cinematography, you know, your camera department, you know, your grip department, your electric, like all these, this, those people are ultimately the people who make the movie good.

00:22:14.000 Like they make a demonstrable difference in how good your movie is.

00:22:17.000 And imagine once you get a good flow with a great crew, like you got the band.

00:22:21.000 Yeah.

00:22:22.000 Like there's no need to bring in new band members.

00:22:23.000 Let's do this again.

00:22:24.000 Yeah.

00:22:25.000 Because they, and then like you have the situation where they all are filmmakers too.

00:22:29.000 Everybody knows what we're trying to do.

00:22:31.000 So like then what makes it, you know, you're trying to get something special, something interesting, something fucking magical in some moment.

00:22:38.000 You have to like, if people are tight or if they've been out of shape or, you know, it fucks up the environment.

00:22:42.000 People aren't relaxed.

00:22:43.000 Actors can't do their best work.

00:22:45.000 And that does make a difference between something that's good, average, great, whatever.

00:22:50.000 And I think that if you say like, you know, it makes cognitive sense to people.

00:22:54.000 But if you look around, like, what's an exact Colin Anderson, camera operator, right?

00:22:58.000 Not the cinematographer, but I would tell you, he's the, I think, is the greatest camera operator there in Hollywood.

00:23:03.000 And if you want evidence, that he shot Marty Supreme.

00:23:05.000 He was a camera operator on one battle after another.

00:23:07.000 You know, he's, you look at his resume and you're like, oh, that's interesting.

00:23:11.000 These are all fucking great movies.

00:23:13.000 Now, is he personally responsible for all of it?

00:23:15.000 No, because it's a collaborative medium.

00:23:17.000 There is no, like, you can be a painter and paint by yourself.

00:23:19.000 You can be a novelist and do that, sing, write music.

00:23:23.000 You can't do this job alone.

00:23:24.000 Like, there are a lot of people that go into it.

00:23:27.000 You know, even when I was like, Matt was the lead in the last movie I did Air that I directed.

00:23:32.000 Having somebody so fucking good in your movie who also shows up, does his job, is friendly, isn't fucking around or playing games or being weird, like that sets this tone.

00:23:43.000 Everybody else kind of goes, okay, well, what's Damon like?

00:23:47.000 Oh, I see this is, we're taking it seriously, but nobody's going to be a dick.

00:23:50.000 We're all going to do our job.

00:23:51.000 We're not going to take ourselves too seriously, but we're going to take the job really seriously.

00:23:55.000 And immediately, everybody kind of snaps into that.

00:23:58.000 That trickle-down effect goes across the whole thing.

00:24:02.000 And I think the best thing that I know how to do as a director is just create an environment where people feel like they show up, people like me, they're rooting for me.

00:24:11.000 I can fucking embarrass myself and be bad and it's not going to be in the movie and it was going to make me feel self-conscious. 0.71

00:24:16.000 I'm listened to my ideas.

00:24:18.000 Yeah, and if I have something to offer, they're going to go, oh, that's a good idea.

00:24:20.000 You know what I mean?

00:24:21.000 And that's kind of the trick, in my view.

00:24:25.000 And then you're depending on the gifts of all these people.

00:24:27.000 Every single one of them.

00:24:28.000 You know, guys was, you know, some woman's assistant prop master is coming up with like the stuff that, you know, Phil Knight found, you know, his waffle from the shoe. 0.70

00:24:37.000 They found it on eBay.

00:24:38.000 Like, that's an extra mile.

00:24:39.000 You know what I mean?

00:24:40.000 Yeah.

00:24:40.000 If you make people feel like it matters and you give a shit and that they're contributing and, oh, cool, let's do a close-up of that.

00:24:46.000 That's really fucking cool.

00:24:47.000 They'll die for you.

00:24:48.000 They'll go all the way.

00:24:50.000 And it changes the whole thing.

00:24:51.000 And if you bonus them.

00:24:53.000 Yeah, it's done either.

00:24:54.000 You know, it's not just all, you know, it's, it's rough.

00:24:57.000 There's an actual like codified bonus structure to say like we this is the way of recognizing that shit, right?

00:25:04.000 And it's like in your paycheck, too.

00:25:05.000 That's very real.

00:25:06.000 And you guys develop this?

00:25:08.000 So is this something that you would like?

00:25:09.000 Kudos to you guys for addressing this, first of all, and recognizing it and having that attitude because it's so important and so easy for big movie stars to just think about themselves and their own.

00:25:18.000 We're communists, Joe.

00:25:20.000 We're from Cambridge.

00:25:24.000 Keep the car running.

00:25:26.000 No, no, but each deal has had this kind of, each deal that we've done so far has been different because we've made deals with different studios and platforms and stuff like that.

00:25:37.000 And it just involved us basically retroactively going, hey, we came in under, we did a great job, there's extra money.

00:25:44.000 Here you go.

00:25:45.000 This is the first time that we were able to actually create like a schedule where it's like, because, and by the way, we wouldn't have been able to do that without Netflix going, okay, cool.

00:25:53.000 You think you can make this work?

00:25:54.000 Because we'll give you a shot.

00:25:56.000 Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to do it.

00:25:57.000 So we had to say, look, we're not asking you to take a cut, but if we can, and we can tell you, if the movie is watched as many hours in the first 90 days as like this movie A, that you all know what it is, then that's, you know, 20% of your shout out, let's say, right?

00:26:12.000 Otherwise, you should take a hit.

00:26:13.000 So it's like, yeah, you make more money, your bonus is more.

00:26:15.000 It's all just pegged to where you're at, just because that was the most fair idea we'd come up with.

00:26:20.000 So they gave us like five different levels, right?

00:26:22.000 Like the first couple we hopefully we can hit and maybe the third maybe we get.

00:26:26.000 And then it got to like the fifth one.

00:26:27.000 It's kind of like single, double, triple home run.

00:26:29.000 Home run fucking grand slim.

00:26:31.000 The fifth one was was 110% of all Netflix viewers or something like that.

00:26:35.000 So it's everybody who has a Netflix account watches it and then like 10% of them watch it again.

00:26:40.000 And we were like, K-pop demon.

00:26:41.000 If this is clear, but that's what happened.

00:26:43.000 We were laughing and then K-pop Demon Hunters came along and actually did that.

00:26:46.000 That's the first movie that's ever.

00:26:48.000 Jesus.

00:26:49.000 Well, I think a lot of autistic kids watch that over and over and over.

00:26:49.000 Yeah.

00:26:53.000 I haven't seen it, but I mean, somebody's watching it over and over.

00:26:56.000 Oh, yeah.

00:26:56.000 So, dude, people love it.

00:26:58.000 I mean, it's, you know, the value of it is because before this, one of the big things that everybody's fighting over in the strike is like, well, share your shit.

00:27:06.000 There used to be residuals, right?

00:27:08.000 And residuals, and it was only for SAG and a few other things.

00:27:11.000 But it was like, and you knew if you had a line in the movie and the movie did a certain number, like at the box office, well, you're going to get another 2,000 bucks.

00:27:18.000 And that was a big deal.

00:27:20.000 Get that check in the mail and like, okay, I can pay the rent for another month and I can do that shit.

00:27:23.000 But then there was this like sort of ill, what constitutes success?

00:27:27.000 Because Streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you watch that movie, right?

00:27:31.000 It's hard to tell, well, why did you sign up for this service, right?

00:27:34.000 So for a while, everyone's looking at the first thing that you looked at when you subscribed to somebody.

00:27:40.000 Okay, you're going to go buy Hulu?

00:27:41.000 What did you watch first?

00:27:42.000 Well, the bear must be creating value for us.

00:27:42.000 The bear?

00:27:45.000 But you can't assign a strict numerical value to it because it's like a box office where you can go, well, we're going to use a billion dollars or whatever.

00:27:54.000 And that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet because streamers are doing a subscription model.

00:28:02.000 Whether it's like a gym membership where in the fucking, you know, first of the year, you're like, I'm going to work out again.

00:28:06.000 I'm going to buy that annual membership.

00:28:07.000 And you go twice or you go to the gym every single day, you're paying the same amount.

00:28:11.000 Also, the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like you're going to the movie theater and there's seven movies playing.

00:28:18.000 You're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list.

00:28:23.000 It's insane how much content.

00:28:25.000 You could waste the rest of your life sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have millions of hours more to listen to or watch.

00:28:33.000 You're right.

00:28:34.000 Like when we started researching that and built our own data to poll people and examine all this stuff, it's actually all the library stuff that people are watching all the time.

00:28:43.000 If you say like the new stuff is theoretically what keeps people with the subscription or whatever, but in terms of like volume of time, I think, and doesn't come from them, but it looks a lot like, you know, we're going to watch like Orange is the New Black and the episode of Suits and the Old Seinfeld and Friends and Cupcake Wars.

00:29:03.000 That's what Americans watch six hours of TV a day.

00:29:07.000 That's crazy.

00:29:09.000 And then the other six hours are on their phone.

00:29:11.000 How does anything get done?

00:29:12.000 How does anything get done?

00:29:14.000 When you started to make this film, what is the process?

00:29:17.000 How did you guys agree on it?

00:29:19.000 Did you guys have it written first?

00:29:22.000 Joe Conham wrote Joe.

00:29:24.000 Before you knew you were going to Netflix with it?

00:29:26.000 Yeah.

00:29:27.000 He came to us with the script.

00:29:28.000 And we've known Joe for a really, he did a movie.

00:29:30.000 His first movie was called Narc.

00:29:31.000 I don't know if you ever saw that.

00:29:32.000 Yeah, it's a terrific movie.

00:29:33.000 So we met him way back this 25 years ago or something like that.

00:29:38.000 So we met him back then.

00:29:39.000 And Ben did a movie of his four, I think.

00:29:43.000 So we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with him over the years.

00:29:47.000 And he just sent this to us.

00:29:48.000 And we read it and we thought it was great and bought it for the company.

00:29:54.000 And then we started talking to Joe about how he saw how he wanted to do it.

00:29:59.000 And he suggested that we actually do the movie.

00:30:02.000 And we were like, yeah, why don't we do it?

00:30:04.000 It seems basically because we liked it.

00:30:07.000 We liked it.

00:30:08.000 We're not trying to just do our movies.

00:30:10.000 We want to be doing movies with all these people that we like and respect.

00:30:15.000 And then the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get like the historically, the way it's worked is like a studio will own an IP or a script or whatever.

00:30:26.000 And then they'll say, okay, we want you to do it.

00:30:28.000 Okay, well, how much?

00:30:29.000 Well, how much did you get for the last one?

00:30:30.000 Right.

00:30:30.000 And you go, then what's the budget?

00:30:32.000 And then that's how they assign a value to it.

00:30:34.000 Right.

00:30:35.000 But like my belief was, well, especially when these streams are like coming into the market and chasing stuff, is like this movie may be worth more.

00:30:42.000 It may be worth less.

00:30:44.000 And that like we're all just subject to that.

00:30:46.000 So we'll try to get the best price for it and we'll all share it, you know, pro rata.

00:30:51.000 And essentially that was the same process.

00:30:53.000 We've done eight, I guess, movies or so now.

00:30:55.000 And we took it out and people wanted it.

00:30:58.000 And then one of the things that was really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize.

00:31:05.000 I was like, okay, great.

00:31:07.000 That's really meaningful because ideally it becomes a template that other people go, hey, we want to do that thing.

00:31:12.000 And I mean, oh, here's the paperwork.

00:31:14.000 Like a lot of people say that they would want to do it, but now that template exists, so it's like plug and play.

00:31:14.000 Yeah, that's the thing.

00:31:21.000 So if you're not full of shit and you really do mean that, then guess what?

00:31:25.000 Just take this.

00:31:26.000 And it also is going to let you, you know, I hope, like, manage the risk.

00:31:31.000 In other words, the argument you always have is like, well, shit, we got to invest all this money in the movie.

00:31:34.000 So you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable.

00:31:38.000 That's too edgy, or can't be R-rated because it costs this money.

00:31:42.000 I get it, right?

00:31:42.000 You're going to put all your money into it.

00:31:44.000 You don't want money to fucking disappear.

00:31:46.000 You want to make money.

00:31:46.000 Okay.

00:31:47.000 So, like, when we wrote the first movie that we're in, Goodwill Hunting, it was like, we knew that had to be a cheap movie.

00:31:52.000 People talking in rooms to each other because no one's going to put a bunch of money into a movie.

00:31:55.000 We're going to do a movie with us.

00:31:56.000 Two assholes that no one heard of.

00:31:58.000 So it was like, okay, what can we do that's interesting and try to keep it as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie?

00:32:06.000 That same logic carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something.

00:32:10.000 So what I'd like to have happen is to say, okay, now that we know there's a reliable system where we understand that in success, we'll actually benefit, we can lower the price up front for you so that you can have a low fucking barrier to entry so that you can take the risk so that we can do something really interesting.

00:32:28.000 That's an original idea.

00:32:30.000 That's a, you know, that's an Omenheimer or a Sinners or a fucking Marty Supreme or whatever it is.

00:32:35.000 And then if it's successful, we're not all sitting here like assholes where you guys walk off with all the money, but and you can have that happen in an ongoing way so that you can make more interesting stuff.

00:32:46.000 A lot of the stuff that was going on with the strikes was centered around AI and what AI is going to do to the business.

00:32:53.000 Like, where do you feel is going to be like the biggest problem with AI?

00:32:58.000 Is it going to be with people's likenesses?

00:33:00.000 Because there's a lot of that, where they want to use extras and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film.

00:33:08.000 But then there's also, you're going to have films that are written by artificial intelligence.

00:33:13.000 You're going to have scenes that don't involve people.

00:33:17.000 And it gets weird, right?

00:33:19.000 It gets really weird, but it's actually an area.

00:33:21.000 It's tricky.

00:33:22.000 Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this.

00:33:24.000 My belief is sort of like, what's going to happen with electricity?

00:33:27.000 Well, a lot of shit's going to happen with electricity.

00:33:29.000 Some of it's going to be good.

00:33:30.000 Some of it's going to change stuff.

00:33:31.000 Some of it's going to be like, you know, this is going to be, you know, shit that kills a bunch of people.

00:33:36.000 Like it's, it's, it's opening a door that you can't, you know, say, well, talk about it in a kind of a blanket way.

00:33:42.000 But I think with what I see is like, for example, if you try to get Chat GPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty.

00:33:52.000 And it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to the mean, to the average.

00:33:56.000 And it's, and it's not reliable.

00:33:59.000 And it's, I mean, I just can't even stand to see what writes.

00:34:02.000 Now, it's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going, ah, what's the thing?

00:34:06.000 I'm trying to set something up where somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets, and it can give you some examples of that.

00:34:12.000 I actually don't think it's very likely that it can, it's going to be able to write anything meaningful.

00:34:18.000 Or and in particular, that it's going to be making movies like from Holcloth, like Tilly Nor, like, that's bullshit.

00:34:24.000 I don't think that's going to happen.

00:34:25.000 I think it's not, I think it actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it.

00:34:32.000 And really, what it is is going to be a tool, just like sort of visual effects.

00:34:36.000 And yeah, it needs to have language around it.

00:34:38.000 You need to protect your name and likeness.

00:34:39.000 You can do that.

00:34:40.000 You can watermark it.

00:34:41.000 Those laws already exist.

00:34:43.000 You can't, I can't sell your fucking picture for money.

00:34:45.000 I can't.

00:34:45.000 You can sue me, period.

00:34:47.000 I might have the ability to draw you, to make you in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law.

00:34:54.000 And the unions are going to, I think the guilds are going to manage this where it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right?

00:35:02.000 We can shoot the scene here in our parkas and whatever it is, but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole.

00:35:11.000 It'll save us a lot of money, a lot of time.

00:35:13.000 We're going to focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass up out there and running back inside.

00:35:18.000 That's useful.

00:35:19.000 Just like Spencer Tracy and Catherine Hepburn used to be like driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting behind them and it looked goofy.

00:35:25.000 And now, you know, in computer generated, people use a lot of computer-generated stuff.

00:35:30.000 And some of it is going to replace just that.

00:35:32.000 Like instead of 500 guys in Singapore, you know, making $2 an hour to render all the graphics for a superhero movie, there's going to be able to do that a lot easier.

00:35:42.000 There's already laws around and guild guidelines around like how many union extras you have to use.

00:35:47.000 But also, we've been tiling extras.

00:35:49.000 Like there weren't a million orcs in Middle-earth.

00:35:52.000 You know what I mean?

00:35:53.000 In Invictus, there weren't all those people in the stadium.

00:35:55.000 Like that's something we've been doing.

00:35:57.000 It kind of feels to me like the thing we were talking about earlier, where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense, less existential dread.

00:36:04.000 It's going to wipe everything out.

00:36:06.000 But that actually runs counter, in my view, to what history seems to show, which is A, adoption is slow.

00:36:12.000 It's incremental.

00:36:14.000 I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies.

00:36:21.000 They go, we're going to change everything.

00:36:22.000 In two years, there's going to be no more work.

00:36:24.000 The reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the CapEx spend they're going to make on these data centers with the argument that like, oh, you know, as soon as we do the next model, it's going to scale up.

00:36:37.000 It's going to be three times as good.

00:36:38.000 Except that actually ChatGP5, about 25% better than ChatGPT-4 and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data.

00:36:48.000 So those may say that it's like plateauing.

00:36:51.000 The early AI, the line went up very steeply and it's now sort of leveling off.

00:36:56.000 I think it's because, and yes, it'll get better, but it's going to be really expensive to get better.

00:37:01.000 And a lot of people are like, fuck this.

00:37:03.000 We want ChatGPT-4 because it turned out like the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to like, as like companion bots to chat with at night and stuff.

00:37:13.000 There's no work.

00:37:13.000 There's no productivity.

00:37:14.000 There's no value to it.

00:37:16.000 I would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to like focus on an AI friend who's telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say and being sycophantic.

00:37:28.000 But that's sort of a side issue.

00:37:29.000 I think for this particular purpose, like the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not, it's going to be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and they make it harder to do it.

00:37:40.000 And it's always going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it.

00:37:45.000 Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more people are going to appreciate real things that are made by real people.

00:37:52.000 You know, like you still appreciate a handmade table.

00:37:56.000 You know, you're going to appreciate, like, did you see The Beast in Me, Claire Danes?

00:38:01.000 Yeah.

00:38:01.000 No, I think it's great.

00:38:02.000 Yeah, I heard it was great.

00:38:02.000 That's fucking great.

00:38:03.000 That lady, whoo, it's terrific. 1.00

00:38:06.000 When she's in a scene, you're just like, Jesus Christ.

00:38:10.000 Like, her fucking lips are quivering.

00:38:12.000 Like, you believe everything that she's saying.

00:38:14.000 People want that.

00:38:14.000 But you're right.

00:38:15.000 You can't get it.

00:38:16.000 You can't fucking cassette teachers.

00:38:19.000 I did this interview with Dwayne Johnson because when people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors interview them.

00:38:27.000 And I did this interview with Dwayne and I asked him, there's this scene in the Smashing Machine where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital.

00:38:38.000 And it really walloped me this scene.

00:38:41.000 I thought it was so great.

00:38:42.000 And I asked him, and I was just like, can you just tell me about this scene?

00:38:45.000 Like, did Benny Safti directed it?

00:38:47.000 Did Benny write that?

00:38:49.000 Did you work on that scene with them?

00:38:50.000 He goes, no, we actually worked on it together.

00:38:52.000 And I go, but how did that scene come to be?

00:38:54.000 And Dwayne goes, well, my father was an alcoholic.

00:38:57.000 And I don't remember if you said substance abuser or alcoholic, but I didn't know the man.

00:39:01.000 I don't want to impugn him.

00:39:02.000 But he had a substance issue, whatever it was.

00:39:05.000 He goes, and when he would talk to me, that's how he would defend himself.

00:39:12.000 It was almost a bargaining thing because there's this thing when this guy comes to him, he's overdosed.

00:39:16.000 And Dwayne's amazing in this scene.

00:39:18.000 He's going like, he's going like, yeah, isn't it crazy?

00:39:21.000 And then I woke up and thought, I mean, I could hear him, but I couldn't really hear him.

00:39:23.000 And you see him and he's kind of tap dancing.

00:39:25.000 And his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire.

00:39:29.000 And at that moment, Dwayne literally starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his head.

00:39:38.000 And it's like, and it's, and it's, I mean, it's just, it was, I'm not doing it justice if you haven't.

00:39:44.000 I mean, I know you've seen it.

00:39:45.000 Yeah.

00:39:46.000 But he said, yeah.

00:39:49.000 So he explains that about his father.

00:39:51.000 And then he goes.

00:39:52.000 And when my mom was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer, I was with her when the oncologist came in and she was lying in the hospital bed.

00:39:59.000 And when he gave her the news, she pulled the sheet up over her head.

00:40:04.000 And I looked at her and she just looked like a little, like a little kid, you know?

00:40:08.000 And I was like, all right.

00:40:11.000 Like, so that, right, is two traumatic events from this guy's life, right?

00:40:17.000 From his life experience.

00:40:19.000 And the actor in him, right, sees this scene, goes into his memory, pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene and he can marry them together in the scene.

00:40:33.000 And then he goes and performs it that way.

00:40:36.000 And a dude walking in off the road goes to the movies, sees this, understands somehow that it's fucking real.

00:40:46.000 I didn't know why.

00:40:47.000 That's why I wanted to ask him, how did that scene come to be?

00:40:49.000 I genuinely didn't know.

00:40:52.000 And made me tear up.

00:40:58.000 There's no fucking AI that can do that.

00:41:00.000 No.

00:41:01.000 It's a whole lot more than photorealistic images.

00:41:06.000 You could have an AI understand Dwayne's face and move his face into different.

00:41:10.000 No fucking thing.

00:41:11.000 I think it could ever do that.

00:41:12.000 The complications of real life experiences relayed.

00:41:15.000 That is a completely human.

00:41:17.000 That's a piece of art that comes out of a lived human experience.

00:41:17.000 That is an artist.

00:41:21.000 That movie gave me so much anxiety.

00:41:23.000 There's moments where Emily Blunt is awesome.

00:41:25.000 I've so fucking seen that movie.

00:41:27.000 I really said, I'd be like, I think that's the best she's ever been.

00:41:31.000 We live in the same building in New York.

00:41:32.000 She's a very dear friend of mine.

00:41:34.000 And I was like, I really think that's the best she's ever been.

00:41:37.000 And then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan.

00:41:40.000 And he kind of stopped and looked at me like, he didn't say it, but he was kind of like, she's pretty fucking good in my movie, too.

00:41:47.000 Well, she's great, period.

00:41:48.000 She's a great period.

00:41:49.000 She's great, period.

00:41:50.000 But there's something about that.

00:41:51.000 Well, I knew Mark.

00:41:53.000 I knew Mark from, I met Mark in 97 when he was fighting in the UFC.

00:41:57.000 So I knew the whole journey of him.

00:41:59.000 And I was so happy for Dwayne because it was a film where instead of being this fucking superhero, blockbuster Hulk of a man, he gets to be that, but be a great actor.

00:42:12.000 And, you know, you can't really get a person to look like that, to express emotions.

00:42:22.000 And he was Mark Kerr.

00:42:24.000 If you know Mark, I mean, it was fucking great acting.

00:42:27.000 I completely forgot it was him.

00:42:29.000 And somebody who had seen it before told me that was going to happen.

00:42:32.000 And I was like, all right, we'll see.

00:42:35.000 And it was like from the second it started.

00:42:37.000 It didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of like the amount of people that went to see it.

00:42:40.000 But I think overall in time, people will appreciate it.

00:42:42.000 Yeah, that's what we'll go back to.

00:42:44.000 Yeah.

00:42:45.000 Because it's a movie about MMA.

00:42:47.000 So a lot of people are like, I don't want to see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads.

00:42:51.000 But it's not.

00:42:52.000 It's just a movie that happens to be around MA, MMA, but it's a great movie.

00:42:58.000 The scenes are fucking fantastic.

00:43:01.000 The acting is so good.

00:43:01.000 Fantastic.

00:43:03.000 And even the fight scenes, they're so realistic, man.

00:43:07.000 It's really like they, I've saw all those fights.

00:43:10.000 They've recreated those fights about as good as you can get.

00:43:14.000 And just his crazy struggle.

00:43:17.000 And you know the story behind the documentary, The Smashing Machine?

00:43:20.000 So The Smashing Machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride.

00:43:20.000 No.

00:43:25.000 And he was the most terrifying guy in the world.

00:43:28.000 He was 265 pounds of solid muscle, just blowing through people.

00:43:32.000 Didn't even look like a human being.

00:43:33.000 Everyone was terrified of him.

00:43:35.000 No one knew he was a drug addict.

00:43:37.000 And he spiraled out as they were filming and he let them film him.

00:43:37.000 No one knew.

00:43:42.000 Let them film him shooting up.

00:43:44.000 Let them film him like bringing this giant bag of pills with him and all this shit everywhere and just completely falling apart.

00:43:52.000 While they were supposed to be capturing this hero movie of the greatest fighter in the world, he's falling apart like live in front of the documentary.

00:44:01.000 It was a fucking amazing documentary.

00:44:03.000 I got to see it.

00:44:04.000 It's really good.

00:44:05.000 But I was so happy that they put it in a film.

00:44:08.000 And I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's really capable of because he's so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in.

00:44:18.000 Yeah, and by like galactic success.

00:44:21.000 Yes, right?

00:44:22.000 I mean, he had to and will continue to have to push for that, right?

00:44:31.000 Because it's what he wants and not because what they are going to continue to want him to do is the thing that mints them money.

00:44:42.000 But I suspect that his experience and feeling about this movie.

00:44:46.000 From the conversations I've had with him, yeah, this has changed him.

00:44:51.000 Yeah.

00:44:51.000 Well, I mean, it's this thing that these superhero guys have to do where it's like something has to change because otherwise you're going to be boxed.

00:45:01.000 And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put him in that box.

00:45:06.000 And so you see him now, he's thinner, he's lost a lot of weight.

00:45:08.000 Like Dave Bautista went through a very similar thing, right?

00:45:12.000 He wanted to have more range, wanted to have more opportunities to do exciting and different challenging things.

00:45:17.000 Well, I think also coming from where he came from, right?

00:45:20.000 It's like you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days.

00:45:23.000 Try coming from wrestling to like the biggest movie star in the world, right?

00:45:28.000 It's very, it's like, it's incredible that he did that.

00:45:32.000 And now he's in this place where he's got this leverage because he's so beloved and, you know, that he can kind of tailor what he wants from here on out.

00:45:42.000 It's hard to bring the audience with you.

00:45:44.000 Right.

00:45:44.000 No, no, I know you like this thing, but let me show you something else.

00:45:47.000 You know, it's sort of like you go to the concert, the band wants to play the new songs.

00:45:55.000 He's a little gilded cage.

00:45:57.000 All right, fuck it, satisfaction.

00:45:58.000 Yeah.

00:46:00.000 No, I love the song too.

00:46:02.000 You know, my acoustic thing that I did?

00:46:05.000 Yeah, I went to see the Stones when they were here in town, and there was a few songs they played that were like new songs.

00:46:10.000 Oh, really?

00:46:11.000 See the audience is like, okay, okay.

00:46:15.000 Yeah, that's what, I mean, but, you know, every artist, I guess, has to make that choice.

00:46:20.000 And he's made it.

00:46:22.000 And it was an amazing vehicle, too, because he still kept that superhuman, Hulkish frame.

00:46:28.000 Yeah.

00:46:28.000 And then, but also showed like, God, there's like amazing depth there.

00:46:32.000 Yeah.

00:46:33.000 And that's the thing that's, I think, especially because it's, A, it's collaborative.

00:46:38.000 It happens with other people.

00:46:39.000 That's what movies do that other shit doesn't do, which is just create, like, you feel for people.

00:46:44.000 It's empathy.

00:46:45.000 It's all made up, right?

00:46:46.000 That's not him.

00:46:47.000 It's the old, it's all an illusion, all bullshit.

00:46:49.000 But if you do it really well, like, you know, somebody that seems to really be feeling something like all of a sudden, I think what it does, it touches like these things in ourselves.

00:46:58.000 You know, it has that same effect that Dwayne went through of articulate to you about like these moments that were kind of burned into his memory.

00:47:07.000 Then really the best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we project our own fucking like, oh yeah, my father died or I went through this with my kid or I'm fucking, I feel fucking alone and miserable.

00:47:21.000 And here's this like hopeful moment that someone has to go, maybe I can, maybe I can do something.

00:47:26.000 They inspire you, they touch you, they move you, and it's the thing to go for.

00:47:30.000 The other thing is, you know, it's a is to tell the lighter story, to go through the more typical sort of tropes of it all.

00:47:36.000 And it's a either way, you're in somebody else's perspective for a few hours, and hopefully it breeds compassion.

00:47:42.000 Well, when it's done right, there's a magic to it where you forget that it's happening and you're there.

00:47:47.000 And the most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people.

00:47:51.000 You know, I was talking to Ethan Hawk about this.

00:47:53.000 There's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon in that movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the world.

00:47:58.000 I forget the name of it.

00:47:59.000 Right, right.

00:48:00.000 Tomorrow, yeah, tomorrow something.

00:48:02.000 Yeah.

00:48:03.000 People will find it.

00:48:03.000 But it's a great, great fucking movie.

00:48:05.000 But there's this scene where he's trying to get to Kevin Bacon.

00:48:09.000 Kevin Bacon's got a gun to him.

00:48:11.000 And it's so fucked.

00:48:13.000 I know that's Kevin Bacon.

00:48:14.000 I know that's Ethan Hawk.

00:48:16.000 It doesn't matter.

00:48:17.000 Like you're fucking locked in.

00:48:19.000 You're like, oh, shit.

00:48:19.000 You're locked in.

00:48:21.000 That's the magic.

00:48:23.000 And he was like, but I'm locked in too.

00:48:26.000 Like, that's it's like a hypnosis.

00:48:28.000 It's like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre way.

00:48:34.000 Like you, you have the lines, but you're living it.

00:48:37.000 And so, and that's either done or it's not done.

00:48:40.000 And when it's not done, you could tell someone it's kind of just performative.

00:48:44.000 You feel it when you're watching.

00:48:45.000 Yes.

00:48:46.000 If it does that thing and it pulls you in, then it's happening.

00:48:49.000 That's the magic of film.

00:48:50.000 And sometimes you trick people, I guess, but for the most part, for the most part, you don't.

00:48:54.000 If you're feeling it and it's really happening, it's much more likely to recognize human beings experiencing real shit.

00:49:02.000 Yes.

00:49:03.000 It's like these mirror nerves.

00:49:04.000 That's what I'm like, I know what sorrow looks like without having to fucking break it down for you.

00:49:10.000 Or I even, you know, we all know kind of what, like, oh, he's a little anxious right now, or did I maybe offend him?

00:49:16.000 Or is he, you know, all these little things.

00:49:18.000 And when some, like in the rare moments, when these big feelings or the things happen, you feel it too, you know.

00:49:26.000 And you usually, like, an example is this old saying about like, you know, actors try to cry, people try not to cry.

00:49:32.000 Like, because when you're really experiencing that shit, you don't want people to see it.

00:49:35.000 You want to hide it.

00:49:36.000 You want to, no, I'm okay.

00:49:37.000 You know, it's like you want to pull the sheet up over.

00:49:37.000 I'm fine.

00:49:39.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:49:41.000 But the other thing that's really interesting from our side of doing it, because he and I have talked about this a lot, is, and I've always said publicly, like great actors are good enough for both of you.

00:49:51.000 Like when you're in a scene with a great actor, that thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis or whatever you want to call it, that energy, that place where you go, right?

00:50:01.000 They're bringing you right with it.

00:50:02.000 It's like a fucking tractor beam.

00:50:04.000 They will suck you right in with them. 0.97

00:50:05.000 And like as quickly as you look into their eyes and you're like, you're like just there.

00:50:10.000 And it's like, and it's not like, it's like riding the easiest wave you've ever ridden in your life.

00:50:16.000 You know, it can be the hardest thing in the world and it can be the easiest thing in the world.

00:50:20.000 When you're with a great actor, it just, it's just, if the scene's amazing.

00:50:23.000 Yeah, this is a real paradox of like all the stuff that I'm the most proud of.

00:50:27.000 The weird thing about us has felt very easy at the time.

00:50:29.000 And the shit where you're banging your head against the wall trying to get blood from a stone and killing yourself and the whole thing.

00:50:33.000 And it just ends up fucking feeling empty.

00:50:36.000 And the thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is my insecurity is like, should be harder than this, right?

00:50:41.000 Are we like, are we working hard enough?

00:50:43.000 Are we getting, you know, and learn to kind of just trust that go, it feels good.

00:50:46.000 Let's just keep going, you know.

00:50:48.000 Well, there's some scenes in this movie without giving too much away where there's conflict between you two guys that seems so real.

00:50:54.000 And that's even harder to recreate because you guys are good friends and you're making the movie together and you've got this scene where you're acting in this and with the conflict with the two of you guys in the movie, but it's very fucking real.

00:51:06.000 The reason that it was real, I like that scene.

00:51:08.000 The reason it works, I think, is because he's coming at me and he really needs to know something.

00:51:17.000 And I'm completely blanking him.

00:51:20.000 Like, I'm just, he's going, you got to tell me what's going on, man.

00:51:23.000 He's like, it's awesome.

00:51:24.000 Like, what, what is going on?

00:51:25.000 What is the thing?

00:51:25.000 And I'm just like literally kind of blanking him in this bizarre way, which like was really frustrating him in real life because he was that feeling of like, it's fucking, tell me, dude, it's you.

00:51:40.000 And me, like, and he finally goes, he screams out, I don't trust you right now.

00:51:44.000 That's a fucking problem, right?

00:51:46.000 Which is like what you would say to an old friend, like, what are you doing, man?

00:51:49.000 Like, what?

00:51:51.000 What are you doing?

00:51:52.000 Like, are you like the betrayal?

00:51:53.000 Tell me the fucking betrayal is that.

00:51:55.000 Or tell me the truth.

00:51:56.000 I a lot of people tell me.

00:51:57.000 You fuck to me and like step outside our whole relationship and all of a sudden just act like, give me this weird look of just like, I don't know, you know like.

00:52:07.000 And so we were doing the scene.

00:52:10.000 It was really fucking busy.

00:52:12.000 I could see him like getting there was the one line that wasn't written that I saw that I didn't remember doing was, I would have never fucked you like this.

00:52:17.000 I would have never fucked you like this.

00:52:18.000 Yeah, which I didn't even remember saying, is George, I like that, keep that thing.

00:52:21.000 I wouldn't have fucked you and I was.

00:52:23.000 I thought I was like what is he?

00:52:24.000 I thought what did I?

00:52:25.000 And I sort of watched the playback.

00:52:27.000 It was in those rare moments again.

00:52:28.000 It was like where it was that thing of you doing all the work by by not doing anything, which I didn't expect that to be the choice that you made, and it just was confusing and felt like just you know, leaving you out in the fucking cold and the only thing I could rely on is like I, you know I would, I wouldn't do this to you.

00:52:47.000 So do you have, in those moments where you're you're ad-libbing a line, where a line comes, is it just just that feels like that's what you say.

00:52:55.000 It's just kind of like you couldn't stop from saying it.

00:52:57.000 Right, you know, but you have to be working with somebody that makes that okay.

00:53:02.000 You know what I mean, because the part of your brain that will like govern you or tell you something's not okay or whatever, will step in if it's sort of like you know listen, I expect you to fucking do this box.

00:53:12.000 And there's, there's a directors and writers who really do really care about every word precisely, and that you know and that's that's how they do it and that's fine.

00:53:20.000 That could be great too for me.

00:53:22.000 Like it.

00:53:23.000 It becomes more interesting and sometimes better stuff happens.

00:53:23.000 I find it's.

00:53:26.000 If you actually feel like you don't have to say any of the lines I don't have to say any of the lines in this scene then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right.

00:53:34.000 But it but like it's that.

00:53:36.000 It's that fake thing that never happens in life, which is I'm never sitting here talking to you and think what's my next line, right?

00:53:42.000 What am I supposed to say and how should I say that?

00:53:44.000 And it's not about the lines, ever it's not about the words, about what's happening.

00:53:47.000 What's the scene about?

00:53:48.000 What's happening in the scene.

00:53:49.000 It's one of the reasons why curb your enthusiasm is so great, because Larry David just gives you a place to get to.

00:53:55.000 Yeah, like gives them an eject, kind of a loose agenda of what's going to happen and then films a bunch of stuff and everybody figures it out.

00:54:02.000 Yeah, and a lot of times that shows about the awkward shit in between.

00:54:06.000 People are missing each other or not sure of themselves and a little embarrassed and genius show it really is and and and people talk like we're talking, like you occasionally talk over each other.

00:54:17.000 There's a stumble, there's no one know, like what what, what the fuck are you talking?

00:54:20.000 There's weirdness.

00:54:22.000 Well too, because what's also happening is that forces you to really listen right, and that is that is the hardest thing to kind of learn for young actors, I think is is it's really all about listening and like I did a bunch of movies with Paul Greengrass and that's how he works where, Where you just know the agenda going in.

00:54:41.000 You know, some basic things that you know what your guy needs going in.

00:54:45.000 Like, I was playing a chief warrant officer, and I had to go through a door, and there was a guy, and I needed to interrogate him.

00:54:51.000 And this is what I needed to know from him.

00:54:53.000 I needed to secure the house with my guys, and I needed to get to this guy.

00:54:57.000 We needed to make sure everybody here was secure.

00:54:59.000 So, and it just, and they, and he put me with a bunch of real combat veterans, and we fucking went in and you know, they're the actors.

00:55:07.000 That's another thing that does your job for you.

00:55:09.000 It's just being around the real people.

00:55:11.000 Joe putting the cops from Miami, you know, all in these parts, and it just like by osmosis, you feel more legitimate.

00:55:18.000 The thing feels more authentic to the audience.

00:55:21.000 You don't know why, because you don't know what the fucking culture is of the tactical narcotics team in Miami.

00:55:26.000 But when you see the real guys, you kind of, oh, you're like, Yeah, that seems right.

00:55:30.000 And Miami is the perfect place to have it, too.

00:55:32.000 Miami's a lot of people.

00:55:33.000 Well, it's also specific to this because it's based on this real tactical narcotics team in Miami.

00:55:40.000 And the guy who ran that, this guy, Chris Cassiano, is Joe's friend, and he's the guy that my character is based on.

00:55:48.000 So, Chris was Chris.

00:55:50.000 We rode along with Chris down there.

00:55:51.000 We went with that team and watched them operate and then hung out with them.

00:55:54.000 And then they came up and they were all in the movie.

00:55:57.000 And Chris was around as a technical advisor the whole time.

00:56:00.000 So, any question like little details, all right, how do I go through this door?

00:56:04.000 What do you do here?

00:56:04.000 What do I do?

00:56:05.000 What's the protocol here?

00:56:07.000 What, you know, all of that stuff was kind of overseen by him so that it was how they really do it.

00:56:13.000 That whole fucking town is so, did you ever see Cocaine Cowboys? 0.53

00:56:16.000 Yes.

00:56:19.000 The entire fucking graduating class of the police academy one year either wound up murdered or in jail.

00:56:26.000 That's what happens.

00:56:27.000 All of a sudden, you push so much fucking money into something.

00:56:31.000 And it's like, before they even kind of figured out, like, you know, and it was, there wasn't even a lot of stigma.

00:56:37.000 It was like, ah, cocaine, whatever.

00:56:38.000 It's kind of rich guys, fun drug.

00:56:41.000 But, you know, is there some statistic about like, you know, the amount of money in the banks in Miami was like the same as the rest of the country?

00:56:48.000 More banks per capita in Miami than anywhere else in the country.

00:56:52.000 Right.

00:56:53.000 Because they were just laundering money.

00:56:54.000 Right.

00:56:55.000 And they got away with it.

00:56:56.000 They literally got away with it.

00:56:57.000 Have you ever flown over Bimini?

00:56:59.000 You know, the island.

00:57:00.000 So, so if you fly over, ever fly over Bimini, there are all these like Cessna's underwater, all these planes like around the island.

00:57:09.000 Because what they used to do, Bimini's like the closest, it's 50 miles off the coast of Florida. 0.98

00:57:15.000 They would come in with a plane full of drugs and just crash the plane into the water.

00:57:19.000 They would land it on purpose because there's no runway on Bimini.

00:57:24.000 It's like, fuck it, we're going to dump the plane in the water.

00:57:24.000 There's no, it's.

00:57:26.000 They would have 10 cigarette boats, like a flotilla of boats waiting.

00:57:30.000 They would crash the plane.

00:57:32.000 They'd offload the drugs as the plane was sinking, right?

00:57:36.000 And then they'd put it, they'd put it.

00:57:39.000 The Coast Guard figures they're always coming for them.

00:57:42.000 That's why they have 10 boats.

00:57:43.000 They throw the drugs into one of the boats and they got a one out of 10 chance of making it.

00:57:48.000 They just scatter.

00:57:50.000 And the Coast Guard goes after one of them and hopes they get the right one.

00:57:53.000 And it's just like, no, it's just taking a cruise tonight.

00:57:56.000 What's the problem officer?

00:57:58.000 But the planes are still all submerged.

00:58:01.000 The water's so clear.

00:58:03.000 How many fucking planes?

00:58:04.000 Oh, wow.

00:58:04.000 There you go.

00:58:06.000 That's crazy.

00:58:07.000 How many fucking planes are out there?

00:58:09.000 I flew over it five, 20 years ago, but I mean, there's.

00:58:14.000 Yeah, that was an approach.

00:58:16.000 I don't know how long.

00:58:17.000 I mean, but if you think of probably the cost of one of those little Cessna's probably wasn't, I mean, with the amount of drugs they were moving on.

00:58:22.000 Yeah, there you go.

00:58:24.000 Fucking wild.

00:58:25.000 That's great.

00:58:26.000 They're kind of landing where it's sort of shallow.

00:58:29.000 Yeah, they land and it's like five to ten feet of water.

00:58:32.000 And what do they land at whatever, 55 knots?

00:58:34.000 So you just try it.

00:58:35.000 The water looks nice, too.

00:58:36.000 Like, yeah, sure.

00:58:37.000 Sure, you're about to be comfortable, but I mean, Sully landed at 737, whatever it was, you know, right.

00:58:44.000 Yeah.

00:58:45.000 Fucking wild.

00:58:46.000 What a crazy part of our culture that that happened.

00:58:50.000 Yeah.

00:58:51.000 That the whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular, like Miami Vice, all that shit.

00:58:57.000 It shaped the entire country.

00:58:59.000 Oh, yeah.

00:58:59.000 For sure.

00:59:00.000 I just remember that one guy in that documentary who was like, I think he was from Boston and he was like the pilot and he had figured out the route and he was like, man, like we could have gotten away with this forever.

00:59:11.000 Because somebody talked and he knew that's the only way we would have been caught.

00:59:14.000 He was like, I had it all.

00:59:16.000 He was clearly really smart.

00:59:17.000 And the guys did, too.

00:59:19.000 I mean, there's a whole lot of people out there that were like, yeah, we had a nice run.

00:59:19.000 You know what I mean?

00:59:23.000 That's why I got eight houses.

00:59:23.000 Yeah.

00:59:26.000 Oh, yeah.

00:59:27.000 That's one of the real crimes that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country.

00:59:31.000 There's a lot of people that got very wealthy, including banks, which is just really crazy.

00:59:36.000 Banks with the jewelry companies.

00:59:39.000 There was like more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than everybody else in the country.

00:59:42.000 And he was like, doesn't pay to ask questions.

00:59:44.000 So, yep, I guess a lot of people like our cars here.

00:59:47.000 You don't say all cash.

00:59:48.000 Sure.

00:59:50.000 Yeah, we can make you a deal.

00:59:51.000 How many backyards in Miami still to this day have bags just buried somewhere that nobody knows about?

00:59:51.000 Sure.

00:59:57.000 It's probably worth just checking.

00:59:59.000 When you buy a house in Miami, just dig the yard up.

01:00:01.000 Well, at least find out who owned it before you.

01:00:02.000 Oh, he's a pilot.

01:00:04.000 Get a truck.

01:00:06.000 Get a tractor.

01:00:07.000 Stop to dig up the backyard.

01:00:09.000 I mean, one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard.

01:00:13.000 They had nowhere to put it.

01:00:14.000 They were making so much money.

01:00:15.000 They just had to bury it places.

01:00:17.000 That's fucking crazy.

01:00:18.000 Well, that's why it's a perfect backdrop for the film, you know, because the situation that the cops, without giving away too much of the plot, but the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation.

01:00:30.000 I mean, so many DEA agents turn dirty.

01:00:32.000 So many cops turn dirty.

01:00:34.000 It's because it just gets temptation.

01:00:36.000 Like you take these people, you know, you got like six, seven people.

01:00:40.000 They fucking work for a living.

01:00:41.000 They have the same bullshit they have to deal with.

01:00:44.000 And there's $20 million, you know, and it's, I mean, it makes for a great like drama, too, even like the, you know, in the performances, because all of a sudden somebody's thinking like, okay, how are they going to react?

01:00:54.000 You know, who'd be the first person to say, you know, I'm going to have to turn this all in, you know, and like getting to play that shit.

01:01:01.000 And for me also, I like, you know, without being, you know, sanctimonious or preachy, because I really think movies, we're talking about like what they do well, what they do very poorly is deliver messages or lecture.

01:01:12.000 As soon as you get into that thing, the audience is like, you know, I'm going to go to church for that or fucking school.

01:01:18.000 I don't need that shit here.

01:01:20.000 But I like that what was underneath it is like, this is a fucking hard job.

01:01:25.000 And that there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of value.

01:01:28.000 Like these characters, the ones that are trying to do their job are trying to get through the day.

01:01:33.000 And just at the end of the day, have done their job like they said they were going to do, you know, adhere to the fucking ethics that they're supposed to.

01:01:39.000 And at the end of the day, be able to sleep at night and believe there's some value in not fucking stealing the money or flipping somebody over.

01:01:46.000 And doing all that shit.

01:01:46.000 You know what I mean?

01:01:48.000 And that's the win.

01:01:49.000 The win doesn't have to be get away with the bag of money or fucking, you know, save the world from, you know, the evil scientist laser beam or whatever.

01:01:56.000 It's like, at the end of the day, if you can fucking live with yourself and say, look, you know, I acquitted myself according to what the fucking expectations were.

01:02:03.000 What am I true to my word?

01:02:05.000 And I think there's so like, that's a, I don't know, that affected me.

01:02:09.000 I found that kind of moving.

01:02:10.000 And, and you can't do it if you create like, if it's to credit to Joe Scripp, like just two-dimensional characters.

01:02:15.000 Oh, I'm the hero, I'm the villain, or this person would never do that.

01:02:18.000 They all have to be real people, like you would be, subject to like temptation.

01:02:22.000 And money just represents whatever that thing is you think you want or that's going to make your life better.

01:02:28.000 You know, it's something different to everybody.

01:02:30.000 But especially when you're like, you're facing like the custody thing or the sick relative or whatever it is, it's a real thing.

01:02:40.000 Nobody's immune to that kind of temptation.

01:02:43.000 I think it's cavalier to be like, oh, well, you're dirty.

01:02:47.000 Putting people in a very tough situation a lot of times, particularly if they're feeling like undervalued.

01:02:52.000 Like the woman seemed Catalina's, like, I get fucking pissed. 1.00

01:02:56.000 I get yelled at.

01:02:57.000 I get shit on.

01:02:57.000 You know what I mean?

01:02:58.000 Like, I'm out here grinding every fucking day.

01:03:01.000 You know, it's a lot to ask.

01:03:04.000 And I think it's worth kind of making that heroic without sort of indicating too much.

01:03:11.000 No, it's really well written because there's no suspension of disbelief moments.

01:03:16.000 And that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie.

01:03:19.000 There's always one movie moment in a movie where you're like, what?

01:03:22.000 Come on.

01:03:23.000 How do you do that?

01:03:24.000 That's convenient.

01:03:25.000 You guys don't have any of those.

01:03:26.000 There's none of that.

01:03:27.000 I loved it.

01:03:28.000 I loved that aspect of it too, where it felt like all of it was like, I believed it.

01:03:33.000 I believed it.

01:03:34.000 And that's really a credit to Joe and his taste.

01:03:37.000 And that's why we really felt like this guy knew how to make NARC. 0.66

01:03:41.000 He kind of obviously understood this world and understood that it has to, above all, it has to feel real.

01:03:47.000 And that's why he was open to like, okay, whatever happens, you throw in a line, maybe it's good.

01:03:51.000 Can't get your feeling hurt if it's not, you know, but like you got to be able to take that shot.

01:03:55.000 And we're all down, you know, trying to spend time with people.

01:03:58.000 I mean, I kind of feel for these cops, a bunch of actors descend on you, and they're like, what kind of sweatshirt is that?

01:04:03.000 You know, it was like that Michael J. Fox James Woods movie.

01:04:06.000 Remember that movie?

01:04:08.000 I forget what it was called, but he's Michael J. Fox is an actor following around James Woods.

01:04:12.000 He's studying him for a character.

01:04:14.000 And James Woods is a real leg detective.

01:04:16.000 And he's just like, get this guy away from me.

01:04:18.000 I kept thinking of that.

01:04:19.000 Kind of hair gel, you know.

01:04:20.000 Yeah, well, yeah, exactly.

01:04:21.000 All these questions.

01:04:23.000 But they were very tolerant of us, which was which was nice and really, really helpful.

01:04:30.000 Because it's always details.

01:04:32.000 It's always details.

01:04:33.000 It's like, how fastidiously do you kind of mine for those details?

01:04:38.000 Because I've always been convinced that an audience, it's like you were saying, they don't analyze why they don't believe something.

01:04:46.000 They feel it.

01:04:47.000 They just don't believe it.

01:04:48.000 And it's usually because those details are, you don't get those.

01:04:52.000 And that's the only thing.

01:04:53.000 Like, I'm not great at imagining something.

01:04:56.000 Let's invent this.

01:04:57.000 I was saying everything that I've done that I like has been a result of something I found in research.

01:05:02.000 Like for the town, I went down and just went through the you know all the prisons, you know, out there in Massachusetts, federal prisons, state prisons, and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks and banks.

01:05:13.000 And, you know, kind of sometimes, you know, you want to know, and then sat down with the FBI guys and was like, what are they like?

01:05:19.000 And the great shit, you know, for me is that, you know, and I'm in like, I'm in like wet wallpaper or I'm in the prison dedim or whatever.

01:05:27.000 And I'm to some guy said, like, after talking for two hours, you know, I was like, is anything just fucking weird ever happened or fucked up?

01:05:34.000 Anything you remember?

01:05:35.000 That guy was like, yeah, one time, you know, we were coming out of this thing.

01:05:39.000 We robbed his truck and, you know, we had the masks, we got the switch car and we drove around the corner and whatever.

01:05:44.000 We pull up and we get out with fucking guns and the masks, the whole thing.

01:05:47.000 And we look over and it's this cop sitting there doing construction duty.

01:05:52.000 And I was like, right then he tells me a story.

01:05:53.000 I was like, oh shit.

01:05:55.000 I was like, what happened?

01:05:56.000 He goes, oh, he looked at us.

01:05:59.000 We looked at him.

01:06:01.000 He looked the other way.

01:06:02.000 Whoa.

01:06:03.000 He goes, yeah, he didn't want to end up on the wall at the VFW.

01:06:03.000 And I was like, really?

01:06:08.000 These guys with full automatic weapons, masks on, switching cars.

01:06:12.000 I was like, all right, I'm putting that in the head.

01:06:13.000 And it's a great moment in the town, like in the movie, because they all jump out of the things.

01:06:20.000 And then he, oh, yeah, here it is.

01:06:22.000 Exactly.

01:06:23.000 It was like, it's great.

01:06:24.000 And it's this awkward.

01:06:26.000 They just stop.

01:06:29.000 He sees them.

01:06:31.000 They see him.

01:06:33.000 He's like, fuck, we're going to have to kill this guy.

01:06:38.000 Nope.

01:06:39.000 He turns away.

01:06:40.000 Okay.

01:06:41.000 Wow.

01:06:44.000 It's such a great, but that's straight from research.

01:06:47.000 I always loved that story.

01:06:49.000 And then he, and then the line is here.

01:06:51.000 He put it here.

01:06:52.000 You want to know the wall of the VFW.

01:06:53.000 Yeah.

01:06:54.000 It was a great line.

01:06:54.000 Wow.

01:06:55.000 It's a great line.

01:06:56.000 It was such a simple explanation for what do you think he did?

01:06:59.000 You know, and why?

01:07:01.000 And that's exactly what it would have been.

01:07:03.000 Like that guy, next day's picture would have been up in the wall at the VFW.

01:07:07.000 Yeah.

01:07:07.000 You know, and he knew it and everybody knew it.

01:07:09.000 He decided he didn't want to do it like that.

01:07:11.000 You know, that was, and that kind of stuff is, I don't know, it's very human calculations and interactivism and a very extreme version of it.

01:07:20.000 But it also doesn't happen.

01:07:22.000 Sometimes it's not dramatic at all.

01:07:23.000 You know, it's like, yeah, that was an easy decision.

01:07:25.000 And the guy never says anything.

01:07:27.000 I didn't say anything.

01:07:28.000 And kind of can't really blame him.

01:07:31.000 Yeah.

01:07:32.000 The town was a great fucking movie, too.

01:07:34.000 And I knew a lot of people like that, you know, from boxing gyms and stuff.

01:07:39.000 I knew a guy who was a hitman for Whitey Bulger.

01:07:42.000 I knew a guy who was a friend of a brother of mine who went to jail for that, for murder, for killing people.

01:07:49.000 What town did you grow up in?

01:07:50.000 I lived in Newton.

01:07:52.000 Yeah, I grew up, I lived in Jamaica plane for a little while.

01:07:55.000 I lived in Newton, but I spent a lot of time in Boston because I was fighting.

01:07:59.000 It was mostly training.

01:08:00.000 And so I was around a lot of these very shady characters who were in the fighting world.

01:08:05.000 And a lot of them had backgrounds in crime.

01:08:08.000 One of the guys that I went to, that I trained with, he went to jail for a little while and then he got arrested because a guy got killed and they broke every bone in his body with a hammer and kept injecting him with cocaine to keep him awake while they were doing it.

01:08:25.000 And then they cut his hands off and cut his head off.

01:08:28.000 And this guy that I used to train with got arrested for that.

01:08:31.000 Yeah.

01:08:31.000 Jesus.

01:08:32.000 He didn't wind up going to jail for that.

01:08:34.000 He's dead now, but he was somehow or another at least peripherally involved.

01:08:40.000 Well, I didn't do any fighting, but I went around and found a lot of things.

01:08:40.000 Yeah.

01:08:44.000 One of the things about being an actor, people will talk to you, which is a fucking amazing gift.

01:08:50.000 Even if somebody's like, oh, yeah, I kill guys.

01:08:53.000 They'll just come out and like, it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't apply.

01:08:56.000 Like these guys in the prison, what the fuck are they going to talk?

01:08:58.000 You know what I mean?

01:08:59.000 But they're like interested in it for whatever.

01:09:01.000 And, you know, so you avail yourself of that.

01:09:04.000 And then I had like, you know, we had people around that movie who everybody knew.

01:09:08.000 Yeah, he did that job.

01:09:09.000 He never got arrested.

01:09:11.000 And so like, yeah, people, you know, meet, you know, and talk to him.

01:09:15.000 And it's interesting because it's such a good lesson for doing this job, which is that they're never how you think they're supposed to be, like the murderer person.

01:09:25.000 Right.

01:09:25.000 You know, there's always something a little, I remember one guy was supposed to be like this really violent, kind of loose cannon fucking guy who supposedly had done all this shit, stabbed and killed two people, Faniel Hall, and shot these guys in a, in a robbery.

01:09:39.000 And he like shows up with his polo shirt kind of tucked in.

01:09:42.000 You know, he's like, how's it going?

01:09:43.000 You know, just like, I never would have fucking put this guy on fucking killing four people.

01:09:47.000 You know what I mean?

01:09:48.000 Hey, yeah, have a good time.

01:09:49.000 So I love that one movie.

01:09:50.000 And you're just thinking, fuck, man.

01:09:52.000 Like, this is why.

01:09:54.000 And it's a really good lesson for like, you know, we tend to read a script and, okay, this guy's the tough guy.

01:09:59.000 And he's going to be the, it's like you work with, like, I had the fucking, like the opportunity to train with these Delta guys.

01:10:04.000 Like, you know, it's the most elite special forces combat fucking operators in the world.

01:10:11.000 I mean, I suppose the SEALs will take exception to that, but just numerically, right?

01:10:14.000 I think there's been less than 900 guys ever in the history of Delta.

01:10:17.000 You meet them, and they're not the biggest guys.

01:10:21.000 They're not the toughest guys.

01:10:22.000 They're not trying to fucking be hard.

01:10:23.000 And, you know, they're the most relaxed, at ease.

01:10:27.000 And it, you know, I found myself just being like, finally, I was like, what, can I just ask you, what do you think makes somebody like qualify for the Delta Force?

01:10:35.000 Like, what's a good Delta operator?

01:10:37.000 He's like, you know, problem solving.

01:10:41.000 Problem solving?

01:10:42.000 He goes, yeah, it's probably like your job.

01:10:43.000 I was like, no, let me say, it's really not like my job.

01:10:47.000 I appreciate it.

01:10:48.000 Very big fucking difference.

01:10:50.000 He's like, yeah, you solve problems.

01:10:51.000 Like, yeah, I'm just trying to kill me.

01:10:53.000 That's the thing.

01:10:54.000 But that was the closest insight I got to it, which was, I've always kind of thought this about like a guy's like Brady or something.

01:11:01.000 There's guys that just don't get tight and that they are kind of able to problem solve when the problem is like, well, that helicopter's crashed and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and we're outnumbered fucking six to one.

01:11:14.000 How do you think we should get home?

01:11:16.000 Like just having your wits about you to make that calculation while, by the way, you're in a fucking gunfight and things, you know, I'm sure that does make, because those are the people where I'd be in a fucking panic and I have no idea what to do.

01:11:28.000 And you get like attracted to the person who's like, seems to have it, like, hey, it's good.

01:11:34.000 Everybody get your shit.

01:11:34.000 We're going to be okay.

01:11:35.000 We're going over here.

01:11:36.000 You'll just follow that guy.

01:11:38.000 You know what I mean?

01:11:39.000 Yeah.

01:11:40.000 But it's a good look.

01:11:41.000 It's not always the most, maybe it's just because they're so confident.

01:11:44.000 They're not like, I don't, like, I don't need to prove that I can kick anybody's ass.

01:11:48.000 I don't even get in fights.

01:11:49.000 Like, I have a weapon.

01:11:50.000 You know what I mean?

01:11:52.000 It's just, it surprises me how those kinds of extraordinary experiences and people or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves in how they show up.

01:12:04.000 Right.

01:12:04.000 We have caricatures in our head of what these tough people are like.

01:12:09.000 Well, you see that about MMA fighters.

01:12:10.000 Like there's a lot of MMA fighters.

01:12:12.000 You meet them.

01:12:12.000 They're like the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people in the world.

01:12:15.000 I remember going to one of the events in LA.

01:12:18.000 I think it was at Staples.

01:12:20.000 And I was backstage and was talking to one of the lawyers for the UFC about, we were talking about Connor McGregor, and he was telling me a great story about him.

01:12:31.000 And this guy walks up and he's in Chinos, like khaki pants and like a blue button-up, like, you know, kind of business shirt with spectacles.

01:12:41.000 And he's very small.

01:12:44.000 And I kind of don't really regard him.

01:12:46.000 And I'm still hearing this story.

01:12:48.000 And then Padgett goes, Matt, do you know Henry?

01:12:50.000 And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo.

01:12:52.000 And I'm like, this fucking guy could wreck me right now.

01:12:57.000 Absolutely fucking destroy me.

01:13:00.000 And he, and he is the guy that some dummy would try to pick on.

01:13:04.000 Yeah, right.

01:13:04.000 You know what I mean?

01:13:05.000 Like he does not, he's not carrying himself.

01:13:07.000 Like he's, he just is the thing, you know?

01:13:11.000 And find out a little bit too late.

01:13:13.000 Yeah, don't find that one out later.

01:13:15.000 Yeah.

01:13:16.000 A lot of guys do.

01:13:17.000 Unfortunately.

01:13:18.000 Yeah.

01:13:19.000 That's, it's, well, they don't have to prove themselves, right?

01:13:21.000 They do it all the time.

01:13:23.000 The same was Delta Force guys, like this idea, like this outwardly brash, tough guy.

01:13:28.000 Usually that kind of machismo and that's bullshit.

01:13:32.000 That's you're you're using that because you're insecure.

01:13:34.000 The secure people are very calm and genuinely very friendly.

01:13:38.000 Really nice.

01:13:39.000 Yeah, that's been my experience.

01:13:40.000 Yeah, it's crazy, right?

01:13:41.000 He's kind of beautiful, too.

01:13:43.000 You know, I feel like, what a great guy.

01:13:45.000 And you feel like, that's nice of you to be so sweet to me because you obviously don't have to be.

01:13:50.000 I'll just give you my watch if you want it back.

01:13:53.000 Yeah.

01:13:54.000 No, it's it is a fascinating thing.

01:13:56.000 It's like we have these ideas in our head, these caricatures, you know, of what a tough man is, what a good woman is, what this is, what that is.

01:14:04.000 And I think one of the beautiful things about film when a film is really good is you see these complex characters and it sort of like reformulates in your mind like what a person actually is.

01:14:15.000 Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different people.

01:14:17.000 You know, and yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

01:14:17.000 Yeah.

01:14:20.000 You know, look, the fundamental challenge, I think, in life is like, it's like to find some humility, which means actually thinking you might be wrong about the shit that you're pretty sure about.

01:14:33.000 And it means that you kind of have to assume somebody else might have a point.

01:14:37.000 It's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees with you because, oh, fuck him.

01:14:41.000 He's an asshole.

01:14:44.000 Those are things that actually take work to get to.

01:14:47.000 Because the first instinct, because you just defend your idea or whatever, it's easier is to just.

01:14:52.000 That it's a zero-sum game.

01:14:53.000 Exactly.

01:14:54.000 Yeah, that two competing ideas can't exist.

01:14:57.000 Or that somebody can't be a good person and believe it.

01:15:00.000 Like, if you're going to decide, you can disagree.

01:15:02.000 We don't believe.

01:15:03.000 So I don't know.

01:15:04.000 What about this?

01:15:05.000 What about that?

01:15:06.000 But once you find yourself relying on, like, well, I need to zero out this person's humanity in order to defend my idea.

01:15:12.000 I think that's a pretty good indicator that there's something wrong with the way you're thinking.

01:15:16.000 Because it can't be that you're right about everything and everyone else is bad who disagrees with you.

01:15:21.000 I think that was one of the most interesting things about the Sopranos is that the main character, the guy that you loved, was a fucking murderer.

01:15:30.000 He was like, who would murder his friends?

01:15:33.000 He was a complete mobster and a thug, but you really loved him.

01:15:38.000 Loved the shit out.

01:15:39.000 It was so complicated.

01:15:41.000 Rewatching my daughter right now doing the part that you found yourself being like, I think he probably has to kill him now.

01:15:48.000 But that's got to kill the kids. 0.83

01:15:49.000 That's also great, a great actor.

01:15:51.000 Like there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did Streetcar Named Desire.

01:15:57.000 And Tennessee Williams, who wrote it, like freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski, he was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski.

01:16:07.000 And Tennessee Williams was like, but I wrote him as a brute.

01:16:10.000 He was like a two-dimensional brute who just came and beat up his wife and was supposed to be this kind of dark looming force over the play.

01:16:18.000 But Brando was like, no, he's a human being and I'm going to play him like a fucking human being.

01:16:23.000 And it changed the play.

01:16:26.000 But Williams likes life in the real world.

01:16:30.000 So everybody's the hero of their story.

01:16:32.000 Everyone has their reasons for why they're doing it.

01:16:34.000 And people don't set out to be like, I'm just going to hurt someone or dominate the world.

01:16:38.000 You think, well, I got to protect what I have.

01:16:39.000 It's like, even, you know, I bring it back to this movie, but it's like, what I liked about Rip was it was kind of the slippery slope.

01:16:45.000 You know, that first time you take a little money and then, well, you know, I got to cover that.

01:16:49.000 I don't want to go to jail.

01:16:50.000 I think my reason why I did that, but now I've told a lie.

01:16:53.000 Now I got to cover that thing.

01:16:54.000 And now you have guys who both live by this code that's very, hey, you protect the people who are with you and you got to have this fucking.

01:17:01.000 And so now it's two people who are very similar, like by that kind of slippery slope, ultimately find themselves, you know, will kill one another.

01:17:10.000 Because it's really not, I don't, I don't believe in that one choice term.

01:17:14.000 It's like more, how do you find yourself?

01:17:15.000 You dig yourself in a fucking hole because you're just covering up the let trying to fix the last problem that's arisen, you know?

01:17:21.000 And everybody thinks is, of course, the roots for themselves is like empathize with themselves.

01:17:27.000 That's what we have to be concerned with, ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic shit.

01:17:31.000 It's hard to expect people to go like, all right.

01:17:34.000 And what about, you know, like what they think?

01:17:38.000 And I, and I think that's, I think it's a, it's a much more honest evaluation of people and it allows for like complexity and forgiveness and fucking all the shit that's sort of beautiful about people.

01:17:50.000 Like rather than this notion of like, well, we're going to be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever.

01:17:55.000 And any infraction, then it's like permanently stains you.

01:18:00.000 That's like what we were talking about earlier about people that have been canceled.

01:18:00.000 Right.

01:18:03.000 You know, that this idea that one thing you said or one thing you did, and now we're going to exaggerate that to the fullest extent and cast you out of civilization for you.

01:18:13.000 For perpetuity.

01:18:14.000 Yeah.

01:18:14.000 It's fucking crazy.

01:18:15.000 And it's Because I bet some of those people would have preferred to go to jail for 18 months or whatever and then come out and say, no, but we can't, I paid my debt.

01:18:29.000 Like, we're done.

01:18:31.000 Can we be done?

01:18:31.000 Like, the thing about that, you know, getting kind of excoriated publicly like that, it just never ends.

01:18:40.000 And it's the first thing that, you know, it just will follow you to the grave, I think.

01:18:46.000 What's also this problem that people have with people that are in the public eye?

01:18:49.000 They have this desire to chop them down always.

01:18:53.000 And anybody that stumbles in the public eye, they want to destroy their life.

01:18:56.000 And they want to just pile on.

01:18:58.000 And you're not there with them.

01:18:59.000 You don't feel the empathy.

01:19:00.000 You're not talking to them.

01:19:01.000 They're not a human being.

01:19:03.000 It's just text on a screen.

01:19:05.000 It's just like kind of, like I was saying, like that kind of sixth grade instinct to be like, oh, he's in trouble.

01:19:10.000 You know, there's this, you know, human, like, we have dark, fucked up instincts too, sometimes to like isolate people or get joy out of someone else's.

01:19:20.000 They're in trouble because maybe because part of it's saying, hey, it's not me.

01:19:23.000 You know, so if you can point the finger, everyone's looking over there.

01:19:26.000 We feel safer, you know?

01:19:27.000 Right.

01:19:28.000 But it's, it's like, yeah, and to take any forgiveness out of it, you know, is a really fucked up thing because then it makes it impossible, A, to actually go, all right, yeah, I did that.

01:19:38.000 Fuck shit.

01:19:39.000 That was wrong.

01:19:39.000 I get it.

01:19:40.000 You know, because it doesn't matter.

01:19:42.000 Once you've said you've done it, you become like an outcast.

01:19:45.000 And I don't think anybody wants to think, you know, like the sum total of who you are is your worst moment.

01:19:51.000 You know, it's sort of like the, you know, I think you want to be judged just as well.

01:19:51.000 Right.

01:19:55.000 Are you capable of doing something good or something beautiful?

01:19:57.000 It's not to say to forget, you know, there's people that just over and over and over again that are doing horrible shit, don't care.

01:20:02.000 No one's trying to like absolve that.

01:20:02.000 I get it.

01:20:05.000 But you remove the ability to sort of forgive people or look at them in a complicated way.

01:20:09.000 Or else it's kind of become those things.

01:20:11.000 It's like a, let's get one of ours or one of them.

01:20:14.000 The instinct to get like a team tribal oriented, it just becomes a sport.

01:20:19.000 Yeah.

01:20:20.000 It's also like, who wants to live in a world with no forgiveness and redemption?

01:20:24.000 That's crazy.

01:20:25.000 Like that's just denying the very nature of human beings.

01:20:29.000 And that people do things that they regret and they do, and then they become better people because of it.

01:20:34.000 And to the people I would rely on the most, like trust my kids with the most, have done shit that they really regret.

01:20:42.000 And, you know, what's objectively wrong.

01:20:44.000 And then people have been like, ah, shit, I did that.

01:20:46.000 I fucking, whether it's like addiction, I got myself down this fucking right.

01:20:49.000 I did this.

01:20:50.000 They're able to go, I did it.

01:20:52.000 It's real.

01:20:52.000 I'm sorry.

01:20:53.000 I shouldn't have done it.

01:20:54.000 It was wrong.

01:20:55.000 Actually, those people can become someone that's very trustworthy.

01:20:59.000 Because you're like, this motherfucker will say if they've done something, they'll actually look at their own behavior.

01:21:04.000 They'll acknowledge it.

01:21:05.000 And then you feel good and you feel much versus someone who tells you like, I always get right.

01:21:11.000 Everything's pretty.

01:21:12.000 Well, it's like it's about evolution, right?

01:21:14.000 And our own personal evolution.

01:21:17.000 And we're all on our own path towards that.

01:21:21.000 Like the idea of attacking someone, it's like, oh, so you aced the test?

01:21:26.000 Like, put your pencil down?

01:21:27.000 Like, you nailed me a human?

01:21:29.000 You're done.

01:21:31.000 If you dead nail being human, that's not possible because you forgot about the part about forgiveness.

01:21:36.000 Yeah, you haven't nailed it by definition if you're out there throwing stones.

01:21:41.000 It's most of the people that I find, especially when there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something, most of the people that I know that have attacked people have a lot of questionable shit in their past.

01:21:50.000 And it's almost like they're trying to hide that by going on the attack.

01:21:53.000 Yeah, that's the thing.

01:21:53.000 Like, if I can point my finger, it's like, no one's going to be...

01:21:56.000 Oh, he's a good guy.

01:21:56.000 Yeah.

01:21:57.000 Ben's a good guy.

01:21:58.000 He's calling them out.

01:21:59.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:22:00.000 But meanwhile, you know.

01:22:03.000 Yeah.

01:22:04.000 It's like you tell me to see Wake Up Dead Man, the knives at the third knives.

01:22:09.000 I really liked it.

01:22:09.000 I watched it.

01:22:10.000 I thought it was a really interesting, like, you know, I'm not a religious guy.

01:22:14.000 I don't like that's, you know, and yeah, I'm aware of all the like, okay, you know, There's the religion, then there's people.

01:22:20.000 Who's supposed to be rational?

01:22:21.000 I thought it was a really beautiful movie about like what's the role of grace in life, you know and, and the really honest examination of that, like sitting side by side with yeah okay, you don't believe, but like you in and you know so.

01:22:36.000 It's not about like whether you're gonna argue over fucking evolution.

01:22:39.000 It's about like, how graceful are you in your life?

01:22:43.000 You know, how much fucking dignity can you afford other people and are you willing to recognize and see that there's maybe something bigger than yourself and that there's a reason to to like uh, to try to sort of be, to find that grace to get better.

01:22:55.000 You know, that was really beautiful and kind of rare and uh, really surprised.

01:22:59.000 I was really surprised too.

01:23:00.000 I, I kind of put it on and not, you know, not not thinking yeah I I, I loved it.

01:23:06.000 Yeah yeah, I loved it too.

01:23:08.000 I think it's one of the best of the three.

01:23:10.000 It's, uh, it was my favorite of those.

01:23:12.000 Those are great.

01:23:13.000 Uh, Daniel Craig is great in that role.

01:23:15.000 He's fantastic.

01:23:16.000 Yeah, I mean guy goes from James Bond to that yeah, and so many other things as well.

01:23:19.000 So it's a Joshua Conner that, that who played the priest I hit because I first saw him on uh, on uh The Crown.

01:23:26.000 Yeah, I liked him a lot and so I think man, what an actor he is really really good.

01:23:31.000 How much film do you guys consume?

01:23:33.000 Do you spend a lot of time watching films?

01:23:33.000 Do you?

01:23:35.000 I mean, do you think we depends?

01:23:38.000 There's a lot like if we're working as, if we're watching cuts after cuts and going in the editing room like there's a lot of kind of work around all the stuff that we have going that that that eats into a lot of time, mostly trying to keep up with what people are doing.

01:23:52.000 My issue is really that, like we've kind of developed this pattern where all these sort of movies that come out are more interesting and very like they're all jammed out at the last fucking month of the year and so all of a sudden you're trying to race movies.

01:24:04.000 Yeah right, I got really lucky like uh, recently my son you know who's 13 decided he wants to like watch movies, you know, and I like give him shit like.

01:24:13.000 What are you fucking doing?

01:24:13.000 We always work on tick, tock and shit.

01:24:15.000 Like what do you want?

01:24:15.000 Let's watch a movie.

01:24:16.000 And you know he's kind of blowing me off and rolling his eyes and he's like you know, I mean if you're a dad, you're kind of an asshole, fundamentally like, come on, you don't know what's going on.

01:24:24.000 You know what I mean.

01:24:25.000 Like he told me one time he was like dad.

01:24:27.000 I said look, let's watch this movie.

01:24:29.000 And I played him the trailer it was.

01:24:31.000 It was I can't remember what.

01:24:32.000 The movie was a good movie and the trailer was good.

01:24:35.000 He just looks at it and goes, you know what you guys ought to do?

01:24:38.000 You guys ought to work with some of the tick tock editors.

01:24:41.000 I was just like, wow, oh no.

01:24:44.000 I went and told the editors, I told Billy and Chris.

01:24:46.000 I was like, guys, I got news for you, but but now he's like, all right, let's watch.

01:24:51.000 Like what are some movies I should watch?

01:24:52.000 You got Letterbox.

01:24:53.000 He got into that thing.

01:24:54.000 You know it's like.

01:24:55.000 So I was like so I said okay, what are the great movies?

01:24:57.000 I'll give you a list.

01:24:58.000 I started giving him a list, they started watching them and so I mean this is like heaven for me.

01:25:03.000 So it's like, okay, what are you watching?

01:25:04.000 Can comedy like?

01:25:05.000 Last week I watched taxi driver kick up all these Scorsese movies and it really was like, oh man I, I because in my mind i'm like sure i've seen that movie, I know it watched them again.

01:25:14.000 It was like like seeing, I could realize how much better they were than I even could appreciate when I watched it when I was younger.

01:25:21.000 And it really and it was just the most beautiful fucking experience for me To watch my son, like taking an interest.

01:25:28.000 And there's the, you know, the older two have always been a little bit like, yeah, dad, no, great.

01:25:31.000 But, hey, you guys want to come to the prior?

01:25:33.000 No, not really.

01:25:35.000 Guess what?

01:25:35.000 Come to the set, no, I'm good.

01:25:37.000 You know, and it's just too much familiarity.

01:25:39.000 You know, you grow up with a dad as a movie star.

01:25:41.000 You're just like, the kids got to, and I get it.

01:25:43.000 You got to be your own person, do your thing to have all their own shit.

01:25:46.000 And I get, you know, I never even, so I never expected it from my son.

01:25:50.000 And I don't know that he's going to, you know, and I wouldn't want to lean on him, like, hey, get into the family business.

01:25:55.000 Most of the time, it's just like, you know, we go to like basketball games, baseball, all that type of stuff.

01:26:01.000 But it, but this was a really, that was like, oh, I was like, so joyful.

01:26:06.000 You know what I mean?

01:26:07.000 I sit there and watch the movies with my kid.

01:26:10.000 I was like, this doesn't get better.

01:26:12.000 This is the happiest I may ever be in my whole life.

01:26:15.000 You know, right here, watch this movie.

01:26:17.000 And he's like, well, he's telling me what he thinks.

01:26:19.000 You know, it's just like, honestly, the rest of it, you can fucking keep it.

01:26:23.000 That's awesome.

01:26:24.000 That's the best.

01:26:25.000 Well, it's great that you guys still love film.

01:26:27.000 You know, that it hasn't become just a job.

01:26:30.000 It hasn't become a thing that you do, that you really enjoy it and love it.

01:26:34.000 Yeah, it was never a job.

01:26:36.000 I mean, it really, like, it was like an absolute dream from the time we were kids.

01:26:41.000 We did fucking high school theater together, you know?

01:26:43.000 Like, that's crazy.

01:26:46.000 And it was like, we're lucky to get it and lucky to the whole idea that you could even, the goal is like to make a living to not have to be like, well, I'm an actor, you know, slash a waiter, contractor, dentalist, whatever the fuck it is, you know, like actually, I can earn money.

01:27:00.000 I can, and we always figured, like, I don't need that much, especially if we now have kids.

01:27:03.000 Yeah.

01:27:04.000 You know, okay, we can make a living, or it's, you know, maybe it's fucking going to be dinner theater, or maybe it's going to be renting, maybe it's going to be there'll be a job somewhere that we can find where we can do this and keep doing it.

01:27:13.000 Yeah.

01:27:13.000 Well, there's something that I mean, I love when people love things.

01:27:17.000 I spend time on YouTube watching people like fix watches.

01:27:22.000 You know, like, I don't know why, but I love when people make furniture.

01:27:26.000 I love, I love watching people do things that they really love, that they're invested in.

01:27:30.000 I think we all have that thing in us where we see someone who's got a passion for something, someone who really loves it.

01:27:36.000 And that's what everybody really wants in life, to be lost in the thing you love, to have a purpose.

01:27:41.000 Yeah.

01:27:42.000 Yeah, and even watching someone else with true purpose is very hypnotic.

01:27:42.000 And it's beautiful.

01:27:47.000 It reminds me of Joe versus a Volcano.

01:27:49.000 He goes in to buy luggage.

01:27:50.000 I like luggage, sir.

01:27:50.000 He wants to be a lot of people.

01:27:51.000 He's like, luggage is the central preoccupation of my life.

01:27:56.000 That's a luggage salesman and he fucking loves luggage.

01:27:59.000 He loves nothing more than luggage.

01:28:00.000 And by the way, and it's the greatest scene.

01:28:03.000 I asked Tom Hanks about that when I did Saving Private Ryan.

01:28:05.000 I was like, can you tell me about that scene?

01:28:07.000 Because we love this scene so much.

01:28:08.000 And he named the actor.

01:28:10.000 He was a Broadway actor, I guess, the guy.

01:28:11.000 He came in.

01:28:12.000 He worked for like one day in this scene.

01:28:14.000 And he's so good in that movie.

01:28:15.000 And then at the very end, he's showing him all the luggage.

01:28:18.000 And Tom Hanks has unlimited money to spend.

01:28:20.000 He thinks he's dying.

01:28:21.000 And so he basically goes, Well, what's the best luggage?

01:28:24.000 And he goes, Well, you know, and he opens the means.

01:28:26.000 If I had the means, sir.

01:28:27.000 And he opens up this thing and there's this trunk and it's like this music plays and he opens it.

01:28:31.000 And Tom Hanks is like, I'll take two of them.

01:28:34.000 And he goes, May you live to be a thousand years old.

01:28:39.000 It's the greatest day of his life.

01:28:42.000 Oh, God.

01:28:43.000 That's amazing.

01:28:45.000 You guys have been in some fucking bangers, man.

01:28:47.000 Saving Private Ryan, that opening film, The Storming of the Beach.

01:28:51.000 Unbelievable.

01:28:52.000 That might be the most realistic depiction of war that's ever been made.

01:28:56.000 So I remember reading the script, and there was all this dialogue, all this stuff that was written.

01:29:00.000 I came late because I'm only in the he shot it chronologically and I'm only in the last, you know, the last act of the movie, basically.

01:29:07.000 And he told me on set, I was saying, I go, how did it go at the beginning?

01:29:13.000 You know, there's all that dialogue with them on the boat coming in.

01:29:17.000 And Stephen goes, he just goes, I cut all of that out.

01:29:23.000 He goes, no talking for the first 27 minutes of this movie.

01:29:26.000 Whoa.

01:29:27.000 And that was when I was like, oh my God, this movie is going to be fucking unbelievable.

01:29:31.000 I think Tom says, like, I'll see you on the beach or something.

01:29:34.000 He's screaming, you know, guys are puzzling.

01:29:35.000 Look at the man next to you.

01:29:36.000 Yeah, remember it's not going to live through it.

01:29:38.000 That was the script, right?

01:29:39.000 Remember that?

01:29:40.000 It was look at the man next to you.

01:29:42.000 He won't live.

01:29:43.000 He's like, two out of three of you are going to die.

01:29:45.000 So look to your left.

01:29:46.000 Look to your right and feel bad for those two sons of bitches because they're not going to make it. 1.00

01:29:50.000 You know, it was stuff like that.

01:29:52.000 And Steener's just like, nope.

01:29:54.000 Wow.

01:29:55.000 No, these guys are puking.

01:29:57.000 It's like the thing's up.

01:29:58.000 You can just hear, you know, and it's just like, and then just boom, and you're into it.

01:30:03.000 And also, they did this incredible, like cinema-changing open the shutter.

01:30:09.000 Open the shutter all the way.

01:30:10.000 Motion blur.

01:30:11.000 Skip the bleach process in developing the film.

01:30:14.000 I don't, and I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in there, maybe, but I just remember maybe it's just the open shutters.

01:30:22.000 Just pop, pop, pop, pop it up.

01:30:24.000 Yeah, but it just means that instead of like the motion blur is what makes something that like moves across the frame quickly.

01:30:28.000 If you look at each frame, it's like a blurred thing.

01:30:31.000 And when you roll those at 24 frames, it gives you this illusion that it moves across fluidly.

01:30:36.000 And if you basically open the shutter up so you get much more light, each frame takes a super sharp picture.

01:30:42.000 And when you run those together, like the piece of dust goes, and so the mortar explosions are going, and you get that feeling that you're adrenalized and you're seeing, you know what I mean?

01:30:51.000 And it's just, and nobody had ever done it.

01:30:54.000 And the master of the thing understood how to use the tools and combined with a great idea.

01:30:59.000 And that's just masterful.

01:31:00.000 Like, that's just how you do it.

01:31:02.000 There's nobody who directs movies who doesn't go, ah, it's spillwork.

01:31:06.000 That's how you do it.

01:31:08.000 That's just like you say, one of those things, a guy that's passionate and also, you know, caring about something, you know, it's that with that much passion is kind of connected to greatness.

01:31:19.000 And it's, I think, why we love to see that, whether, you know, sports, fucking, you know, fighting or whatever it is, there's something that makes you kind of love being alive and also love that person when you go, fuck, like, when you see Michael Jordan, like that was that whole movie that we did air is really all about, like, what does it mean to be great?

01:31:38.000 And how does it like touch everybody and change everybody and make people want to fucking improve their own lives?

01:31:44.000 Because somebody's just better at that thing than anybody else in the world.

01:31:50.000 Yeah.

01:31:51.000 It's transfixing.

01:31:52.000 You know, I mean, I find that really fascinating.

01:31:56.000 Like, I, you know, people who are great at something and the mystery of like, well, what is that like?

01:32:01.000 And what does that do to your life?

01:32:02.000 And how did you get that way?

01:32:03.000 And what does it take?

01:32:04.000 And what's the cost?

01:32:04.000 You know?

01:32:06.000 Because to truly be great at something, you have to kind of almost abandon everything.

01:32:11.000 I've seen that in various ways.

01:32:13.000 Like in that kind of just empirical personal study, I haven't seen anybody who I think like qualifies for that who didn't also seem to be really suffering.

01:32:22.000 Oh, hundreds.

01:32:23.000 You know, and you're like, damn, you should be so happy.

01:32:25.000 You're the greatest.

01:32:26.000 And, you know, interviewers always go, how do you feel right now?

01:32:28.000 And there's that sense that either it's never finished or it's never enough or they can't enjoy it or they're curious.

01:32:34.000 It's a line we put in here where it's like, and you have to be that.

01:32:37.000 You have to be that thing.

01:32:39.000 It's a kind of a burden, too, in a way.

01:32:41.000 100%.

01:32:42.000 And I just see that.

01:32:44.000 And that's why we want these heroes and people who are great to, I don't know, flourish and have their life and have it all in hand.

01:32:51.000 There's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens too.

01:32:54.000 And it's, yeah, that's like you said, there seems to be a real cost.

01:32:58.000 Well, there's always a massive cost in personal relationships because there's no way you have the time for other things.

01:33:03.000 And the obsession that you have to be the best at something, you have to abandon almost all your concern for everything else.

01:33:11.000 You have to have this single-minded focus.

01:33:13.000 And that comes with a cost for the rest of your life because you damage relationships.

01:33:18.000 You feel like a piece of shit.

01:33:19.000 And you see that up close and like, that's not admirable.

01:33:21.000 Right?

01:33:22.000 Yo, you don't give a fuck about anybody else?

01:33:24.000 No, I do.

01:33:25.000 I just care about this more.

01:33:26.000 You know, it's like, so imagine that.

01:33:28.000 You're making the sacrifices and it's causing injury to people and you know it and you don't want to hurt them, but you can't help it.

01:33:34.000 And you're getting rewarded for it.

01:33:35.000 You know, it's complicated.

01:33:37.000 Yeah.

01:33:38.000 It's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't know you and you ruin all your relationships.

01:33:44.000 Maybe that's why I say don't meet your heroes.

01:33:46.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:33:47.000 There's something to it, man.

01:33:49.000 There really is.

01:33:50.000 But it's just, we all grow from it.

01:33:53.000 There's a fuel to watching greatness.

01:33:55.000 There's a thing that hits you and lights you up.

01:33:59.000 Where you want to do more.

01:33:59.000 Yeah.

01:34:00.000 You want to be better.

01:34:01.000 You want to, whatever it is that you can do, whatever it is you do do, you become more, whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown, whether it's a great film, a great song.

01:34:11.000 Yeah, it lights you up.

01:34:12.000 And it's the fuel that we all live off of that consumes, like we consume to make our culture move forward.

01:34:19.000 Yeah.

01:34:20.000 You know, there's like a sacrificial element to it, the people that do it, and we all feed off of it.

01:34:25.000 And it feels like, well, that's the person that doesn't get enough out of it.

01:34:28.000 Right, right.

01:34:29.000 But in great film, how many lives have been changed by decisions made after great films?

01:34:35.000 Like when I was a kid, I think I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky came out.

01:34:39.000 And I saw it and immediately ran around the block.

01:34:43.000 I've never won in my life.

01:34:45.000 I was eating raw eggs.

01:34:47.000 I'm like, this is going to change my life.

01:34:50.000 There's things that happen when you see something truly great that it makes you want to be better as a human being.

01:34:56.000 I remember where I was when I saw Denzel Washington play Malcolm X. Went to the movie.

01:35:01.000 Watch that movie.

01:35:02.000 And I remember leaving, I'm at almost 19 or something.

01:35:04.000 I'm thinking, I want to be a better man.

01:35:06.000 I thought that in my mind, you know, because of what I had seen this actor do and this performance and the way, you know, that was the only real conscious thought I had.

01:35:15.000 But I remember having it and kind of being surprised by it, you know, and it does.

01:35:21.000 That shit can, you know, it's really touched me, you know, a lot of fucking people's work.

01:35:26.000 And that's why you get that like, you know, you see the people, you want to let them know, you know what I mean?

01:35:32.000 And tell them.

01:35:33.000 And I always think people come to me, oh, I love that movie.

01:35:36.000 I always feel like, ah, you don't have to say that.

01:35:37.000 You know what I mean?

01:35:38.000 Right, right.

01:35:39.000 It makes me kind of uncomfortable.

01:35:42.000 And I don't ever put myself in with those figures who I think are like, oh, but there's these towering giants who have done this.

01:35:50.000 You know, I don't know.

01:35:54.000 I finally kind of arrived to a place where it was like, those uncomfortable people, oh, I saw a good hunting.

01:35:59.000 It made me want to go out to Hollywood and write a script.

01:36:01.000 And I think, oh, shit, I don't know how to go.

01:36:03.000 You know what I mean?

01:36:04.000 Like, sorry, man.

01:36:07.000 At a certain point, I figure, okay, you know what?

01:36:09.000 Whatever it is, like, great.

01:36:11.000 That's the thing that's the cost of your fame, you know, that you have to, there's going to be a bunch of people that are going to come up to you and they want to say those things to you.

01:36:18.000 And like wanting them to say those things to you is the opposite of the mindset that you need to make those things.

01:36:26.000 Right, exactly.

01:36:27.000 Which is so counterintuitive.

01:36:29.000 You think like once you become really successful and you make a bunch of great things, it's going to be awesome having all these people come up to you.

01:36:34.000 Like, no, no, no.

01:36:35.000 I'm doing something else right now.

01:36:36.000 And I can't be all wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your fucking life.

01:36:40.000 I know, so I can't be satisfied or take any fucking joy in that because I don't think I'm good enough.

01:36:45.000 I need to fucking, you know what I mean?

01:36:47.000 Never satisfy.

01:36:47.000 Right.

01:36:48.000 Yeah.

01:36:48.000 You can't.

01:36:49.000 And that's the darkness of trying to do something great.

01:36:52.000 You'll never be satisfied.

01:36:53.000 You see it in a lot of the fighters, the same kind of thing.

01:36:55.000 The great, great fighters.

01:36:57.000 Well, also, fighters have a very small window of greatness.

01:37:01.000 There's only like a certain amount of years where you can burn the RPMs at the red line.

01:37:05.000 And then eventually the knees go, the back goes.

01:37:08.000 Is it earlier than other sports?

01:37:09.000 It must be.

01:37:10.000 I think so.

01:37:10.000 Yes.

01:37:11.000 Because Tom Brady is still elite.

01:37:13.000 I bet he could probably play football right now.

01:37:15.000 I bet he, you know, how old's Tom now?

01:37:17.000 45?

01:37:18.000 Seven or eight.

01:37:18.000 Probably 46.

01:37:20.000 Bet he can still play.

01:37:20.000 Probably.

01:37:22.000 Yeah, I mean, but that's a, yeah, I mean, that's a very specific skill position.

01:37:25.000 And the way he played it, he, you know, running back, no.

01:37:28.000 Right.

01:37:29.000 But at cornerback.

01:37:31.000 The elite levels of MMA, especially with USADA testing and, you know, and now drug-free sport testing, when they are making sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone, all these different things.

01:37:43.000 Like, you have nine years.

01:37:45.000 You have nine years at peak performance.

01:37:47.000 That's legitimate.

01:37:48.000 How long has John Jones been going?

01:37:50.000 John Jones is a freak of all freaks.

01:37:52.000 Because John Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he was on Coke.

01:37:55.000 That was one of the funny things he said in the press conference for the rematch.

01:37:59.000 Daniel was talking shit.

01:38:00.000 He goes, I beat you when I was on coke.

01:38:07.000 I mean, he was getting arrested.

01:38:10.000 He was partying.

01:38:11.000 When he fought Gustafsson, he beat Gustafson and he didn't train at all.

01:38:17.000 I talked to his trainer.

01:38:18.000 He's like, he didn't even show up at the gym.

01:38:20.000 He was fucking never there.

01:38:21.000 He was never training.

01:38:22.000 He could just show up and beat everybody's ass.

01:38:24.000 I saw a thing on my Instagram feed of a fighter, and I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight.

01:38:29.000 And he goes, I had the chance to spar with John Jones to work with John Jones.

01:38:35.000 And he goes, I, you know, I knew about it months ahead of time.

01:38:38.000 He goes, I got every, my nutrition, everything was absolutely flawless.

01:38:42.000 I got, you know, my sleep, everything was on.

01:38:45.000 He goes, I show up at the gym that morning.

01:38:46.000 He goes, it's me and five other guys.

01:38:49.000 He goes, he comes in, I think he went to sleep at four in the morning or something.

01:38:53.000 He was out all night.

01:38:54.000 And he goes, he ran through all six.

01:38:56.000 That's my buddy Brendan Shaw.

01:38:57.000 Is that who it was?

01:38:58.000 It was the funniest story.

01:38:58.000 Okay, yeah.

01:39:00.000 And he goes, and then I just knew, you know, like that's a level.

01:39:05.000 But imagine being that elite and realizing there's another level.

01:39:10.000 Yeah.

01:39:10.000 Oh, yeah.

01:39:11.000 Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight.

01:39:12.000 And John wasn't even a heavyweight.

01:39:14.000 John was a light heavyweight.

01:39:16.000 It was a lower weight class, and he just beat everybody's ass.

01:39:19.000 And he said, this is his warm-up.

01:39:23.000 He's just kidding.

01:39:25.000 Just fuck everybody up.

01:39:26.000 I mean, he has a unique aptitude for MMA, but also he had two brothers that were super played for the Patriots.

01:39:33.000 And Arthur.

01:39:34.000 And so these guys are super athletes.

01:39:35.000 And so they're beating the shit out of each other all the time.

01:39:38.000 So they're like constantly in competition with elite athletes from the time he was a child.

01:39:44.000 So he was just so tuned into competition and he was so intelligent.

01:39:49.000 Like his fight IQ was above and beyond everyone's.

01:39:52.000 And he would study tape meticulously.

01:39:54.000 Well, that spinning kick that he did to that.

01:39:59.000 He was a scene where he said he, and I think he thanked his Taekwondo coach.

01:40:04.000 And he said he had been working on this one specific kick from both sides because of something he saw on the tape.

01:40:11.000 And he got it off and hit this guy so hard, not even on his liver side.

01:40:18.000 He hit him on the other side and you see it shudder through his entire organ structure.

01:40:22.000 Yeah, his heel was deep into his body cavity, like all the way up to his fucking spine.

01:40:30.000 But he just practiced this one specific.

01:40:34.000 And he was like, and he even said, he goes, it is a devastating shot.

01:40:38.000 There's not a human being who could take that.

01:40:40.000 No, it's like getting hit by a car.

01:40:42.000 Because when you're getting hit by a car in one spot, the size of a foot, 13-foot.

01:40:42.000 Yeah.

01:40:48.000 Oh, yeah, here it is.

01:40:49.000 Watch this.

01:40:50.000 He sets him up.

01:40:51.000 Boom.

01:40:52.000 It's just, it's like, yeah, no, it's over.

01:40:55.000 It's over.

01:40:56.000 And this is John moving up to heavyweight because light heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore.

01:41:00.000 He decided to become a two-division champion.

01:41:02.000 I mean, John was a freak.

01:41:04.000 You see it rumbling.

01:41:05.000 And by the way, that was almost a little bit glancing because he caught him with a bent leg.

01:41:05.000 Yeah.

01:41:10.000 Right.

01:41:10.000 He wasn't even fully extended, which, you know, was even more devastating.

01:41:14.000 But John realized that as a heavyweight, he didn't have the power that he had at light heavyweight.

01:41:19.000 And so he said the most powerful kick is a spinning back kick.

01:41:22.000 So I'm just going to work on that kick over and over again because that's the one tool that I have that can knock a heavyweight out with one shot.

01:41:28.000 Wow, okay.

01:41:29.000 That's just not just the physicals.

01:41:31.000 He's also like a genius.

01:41:32.000 Oh, he's a genius.

01:41:33.000 Well, he's also like, he's the most meticulous when it comes to game planning and study.

01:41:38.000 He will not take a short notice fight.

01:41:40.000 Even a guy that he could fucking beat any day of the week, he could wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning and he'd fuck that guy up.

01:41:45.000 He will not take that fight unless he gets a full training camp to prepare for that fight.

01:41:51.000 Well, it's just, you know, greatness.

01:41:52.000 But John's troubled.

01:41:54.000 You know, John's been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy shit.

01:41:58.000 And he's, you know, he's a wild fella.

01:42:01.000 And, you know, and that pursuit of greatness, I'm sure, has cost him a lot of shit in his personal life.

01:42:08.000 But, you know, when he knocks DP out and then did the Trump dance in front of the whole world, for that moment, he's on top of the world.

01:42:15.000 You know, but then, again, it's like the same thing.

01:42:19.000 As soon as you get back, like, what's next?

01:42:22.000 You know, there's another challenge.

01:42:23.000 It doesn't matter how many people love you now.

01:42:26.000 Like, it's not good enough.

01:42:27.000 There's someone else looming.

01:42:28.000 You got to beat this guy.

01:42:30.000 That seems like a kind of an agonizing thing to both have the complete compulsion to have to get to the next level.

01:42:36.000 And the next level keeps fucking moving the goalposts.

01:42:40.000 I'll never forget.

01:42:42.000 I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn.

01:42:45.000 He lost the Walter Wade title to BJ Penn.

01:42:47.000 And I'm interviewing him inside the octagon.

01:42:49.000 He said, I'm going to be honest with you, it was actually a relief.

01:42:52.000 And he goes, the pressure of being the champion and having someone chasing you for so ever in the whole world chasing you.

01:42:59.000 He goes, I'm going to be honest.

01:43:00.000 I thought it was an incredibly brave moment for a guy to say that who is, you know, just this fucking amazing human being, this warrior, to say, I just got to be honest.

01:43:11.000 It's a relief.

01:43:12.000 Losing my title feels like a relief.

01:43:14.000 And I was like, wow.

01:43:16.000 That is so, so brave to be that honest in front of the, because everybody's like, you just got your ass kicked.

01:43:23.000 He's like, this is a relief.

01:43:25.000 You know, I took a burden off my back.

01:43:27.000 I'll be back.

01:43:27.000 I'm going to regroup.

01:43:28.000 But I needed that.

01:43:29.000 I needed to just step off the fucking top of the hill for a little while.

01:43:34.000 Jesus Christ.

01:43:34.000 You got to be like a great actually relief to be able to say something like that.

01:43:38.000 That's kind of a gift.

01:43:39.000 Instead of feeling like you got to hide or pretend it and go, yeah, I'm going to leave.

01:43:43.000 It was a lot to carry.

01:43:45.000 Well, the thing about fighting is everything you try to hide gets exposed.

01:43:48.000 You're exposed completely during camp because they're doing these round – well, they take like – Sorry if I was here?

01:43:55.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:43:55.000 Smoke up.

01:43:57.000 They're taking like, you know, five guys and they're rotating them in with you.

01:44:03.000 So you're doing five rounds with fresh guys.

01:44:06.000 So you got one guy who is fucking warmed up, you know, getting ready for you, and then you're fucking out of breath.

01:44:12.000 They'll give you a 30-second break instead of a minute.

01:44:14.000 And then they're throwing in these monsters.

01:44:16.000 And, you know, you're exposed.

01:44:18.000 You're getting beat in training.

01:44:19.000 You're getting smothered in training.

01:44:21.000 You're exhausted.

01:44:22.000 You know, you're always reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them.

01:44:28.000 You got to hit them.

01:44:29.000 And then they got to figure out where their limit is.

01:44:30.000 And okay, next week we're going to do one extra round.

01:44:33.000 We're going to do this.

01:44:33.000 We're going to do that.

01:44:34.000 We've got to do more strength and conditioning.

01:44:36.000 We're going to push you past wherever your capacity is right now.

01:44:38.000 So you're always breaking.

01:44:41.000 You're always at the point where you can do no more because it's the only way to get.

01:44:45.000 And you can only maintain that.

01:44:46.000 Like the condition that they get in when they step into the octagon, it's not possible to maintain that.

01:44:51.000 No, right, right.

01:44:52.000 You can only get it.

01:44:53.000 You have to aim at that one moment.

01:44:55.000 Yeah, you have to peek.

01:44:55.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:44:57.000 And then if you fuck up and overtrain, which a lot of those guys do just because they're such savages and they never want to leave the gym, then they don't peek right.

01:45:04.000 And then they come in and they're exhausted and they didn't recover properly.

01:45:07.000 And then in between rounds, they're too tired and they can't go out for the next round.

01:45:10.000 They're too beat up.

01:45:11.000 That happens too.

01:45:13.000 I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you overtrain in an actual championship.

01:45:19.000 And you realize you can't bounce back, and this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks and hitting you with punches, and you can't get out of the way anymore.

01:45:29.000 Do you think, who was it?

01:45:31.000 Was it Habib who said that they should just do 25-minute justice?

01:45:35.000 Oh, a lot of people said that.

01:45:37.000 I mean, that's a what songs are playing?

01:45:41.000 What's going on?

01:45:43.000 Fucking technology.

01:45:44.000 The Teske brothers playing in my pocket.

01:45:46.000 That's hilarious.

01:45:47.000 Sorry about that.

01:45:48.000 Well, Hoyce Gracie always said that. 0.92

01:45:50.000 Like, that was how he fought in the early days.

01:45:52.000 They just straight 25-minute.

01:45:54.000 Because he was like, look, he goes, if we're on the ground, he goes, I don't want them to stand back up again and go in between rounds.

01:46:00.000 And he goes, I need time to cook them.

01:46:02.000 That's what he would say.

01:46:03.000 Yeah.

01:46:05.000 I mean, that's what Jiu-Jitsu is all about.

01:46:06.000 Jiu-Jitsu is all about staying one step ahead of you until you become exhausted.

01:46:11.000 And, you know, and then they eventually finish you.

01:46:14.000 Like a, like a, you're just constriction.

01:46:16.000 Yeah.

01:46:17.000 I mean, it's the real, that's, but, you know, there's this balance of like making it interesting for this, for people to watch.

01:46:17.000 Yeah.

01:46:25.000 I, I've been a proponent of no stand-ups.

01:46:28.000 Don't ever stand anybody up.

01:46:30.000 When a guy takes you down, like, you get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway because a striker gets to be standing up when you didn't earn it.

01:46:36.000 So you should never get stood up in a fight.

01:46:38.000 I don't care if the guy's doing nothing.

01:46:39.000 If he's holding you down and you can't get up, that's how it should be.

01:46:42.000 So it's more realistic, but it's the balance of it being a sport.

01:46:46.000 People want to watch.

01:46:46.000 Yeah, making it because people get when people grab someone and take them to the ground, nothing happened, people go, boo, you hear it in the audience, and then the referee gets a little motivated and he stands people up.

01:46:55.000 And I'm always like, ah, don't stand them up.

01:46:58.000 I never thought of it that way, that the beginning of the round starts it to the advantage of the chief.

01:47:03.000 Always, always.

01:47:04.000 You're in a position you didn't earn.

01:47:06.000 You never got back up.

01:47:07.000 I think they should put them right back to where they were at the end of the round because it's one fight.

01:47:11.000 It's not five fights.

01:47:12.000 So if you start it standing up at the beginning of each round, that's a new fight.

01:47:16.000 Yeah, right.

01:47:17.000 In a way, when you're pitching, like, how quickly would the UFC go out of business?

01:47:22.000 Real quick.

01:47:23.000 30 seconds, they're on the ground, and then it's 24 and a half minutes.

01:47:26.000 Dude, I'm a terrible business guy.

01:47:29.000 I would give the fighters more money.

01:47:32.000 I would fuck up the whole business model.

01:47:35.000 I would get rid of the cage.

01:47:36.000 I would have them all fight in a basketball court.

01:47:38.000 Just put mats on the ground in the basketball court.

01:47:41.000 I don't think you should have a cage.

01:47:42.000 I think the cage gets in the way.

01:47:44.000 It becomes a way to get back up because you press your back up against the cage.

01:47:48.000 You use it.

01:47:48.000 You stand back up again.

01:47:49.000 And you're in the middle of the center of a mat.

01:47:51.000 It's very difficult to get back up.

01:47:53.000 And that's realistic.

01:47:55.000 You're using a foreign object to help you perform. 0.89

01:47:58.000 Yeah, right.

01:47:59.000 Yeah.

01:47:59.000 But, you know, there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in a cage and it's like they lock you in there.

01:48:05.000 Cage match. 0.87

01:48:06.000 Yeah.

01:48:07.000 It's just, but I mean, in terms of like inspirational performances and things that you, when you see like the human spirit elevated to the highest possible place when two very skilled men or women are fighting in a cage where they prepared for this for three fucking months.

01:48:26.000 And then, you know, the referee's like, are you ready?

01:48:28.000 Are you ready?

01:48:29.000 Let's go.

01:48:30.000 And it's like that moment.

01:48:32.000 Like is it not like anything else in all sports?

01:48:36.000 I think that's the moment that people show up for.

01:48:38.000 Yeah.

01:48:39.000 Because they build the intense.

01:48:40.000 It's the same with like the old Tyson fights.

01:48:42.000 Oh, now it's going to happen.

01:48:44.000 And you can't help but have that feeling once it, you know, and yeah, some fights end up being disappointing, whatever, but that moment is always there.

01:48:44.000 Yeah.

01:48:52.000 Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what we were talking about with greatness because you could dedicate your whole life.

01:48:58.000 You could fucking get up in the morning at the right time.

01:49:01.000 You could eat all the right foods.

01:49:02.000 You could do all the right training.

01:49:04.000 Then you see that fucking guy who goes, there's nothing I can do.

01:49:10.000 I have no chance.

01:49:12.000 Look at him.

01:49:12.000 He had the look in his eye.

01:49:14.000 He was one of the only fighters where you just see the other guy was scared.

01:49:17.000 Usually they at least hold himself together where they come off, like, oh, I don't know.

01:49:17.000 Yeah.

01:49:21.000 This guy looks pretty tough.

01:49:22.000 Guys would fight Tyson and just would start and they'd feel that moment too.

01:49:26.000 Oh, shit.

01:49:27.000 They're letting this tiger out, and here he comes.

01:49:29.000 And it was like, well, we're old enough to remember when he was in his prime, and those fights were like executions.

01:49:34.000 You didn't want to pay for the pay-per-view because they were so fast.

01:49:37.000 I swear, I mean, Jamie might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart and they cut to his wife, and she was crying.

01:49:47.000 And this is when they're coming to the center of the ring.

01:49:50.000 But by the way, for good reason, like this man might kill my husband.

01:49:53.000 You know what I mean?

01:49:53.000 Right.

01:49:54.000 Like, we're certainly going to beat the fuck out of him.

01:49:56.000 And she knows it, and the world knows it.

01:49:58.000 And you guys were ready to quit.

01:49:59.000 Remember that dude, Hurricane, or whatever?

01:50:01.000 White kid who fought him? 0.67

01:50:02.000 Peace McHaley.

01:50:04.000 This guy couldn't wait to throw the towel in.

01:50:06.000 Like, you know, he was ready to go, all right?

01:50:06.000 He had it ready.

01:50:08.000 That's good.

01:50:08.000 The bell rings.

01:50:08.000 That's it.

01:50:09.000 He picks up the tea.

01:50:10.000 You got more jobs.

01:50:11.000 Save your guy's life.

01:50:12.000 You know what I mean?

01:50:12.000 McNeely's fucked up now, too.

01:50:14.000 When you hear him talk, it's rough.

01:50:15.000 It's rough to hear.

01:50:16.000 Oh, really?

01:50:17.000 Yeah, I saw him get interviewed recently.

01:50:19.000 That's the dark side of the sport of MMA and of fighting.

01:50:22.000 You know, you talk like I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday, and Johnny Knoxville was knocked unconscious 16 times.

01:50:29.000 Jesus, yeah, that's what I said.

01:50:31.000 And I'm like, holy shit, man.

01:50:32.000 And he seems normal.

01:50:34.000 Like, he doesn't seem like he's got brain damage.

01:50:36.000 Now, when you're talking to guys and you know they have brain damage, they're slurring their words and they're still fighting.

01:50:43.000 Their words all mumble together, like you have no idea how much they're struggling.

01:50:47.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:50:48.000 Like, and they're going to be struggling in a downhill slope for the rest of their life.

01:50:52.000 It's not going to get better.

01:50:53.000 It's going to get way worse because the real brain damage occurs like 10 years after the injuries.

01:50:58.000 That's when it really said.

01:51:00.000 It just keeps asking.

01:51:01.000 It keeps getting worse.

01:51:02.000 I mean, there's some therapies that they can do now.

01:51:04.000 There's like they do, and Knoxville did some of it, like this magnetic therapy that they do that restimulates neuron growth.

01:51:13.000 And oddly enough, mushrooms, like psilocybin, has been shown all of a sudden cure a whole bunch of shit.

01:51:20.000 I know.

01:51:20.000 Well, probably always has.

01:51:22.000 Yeah, right, yeah.

01:51:22.000 You know, all of a sudden they acknowledging it.

01:51:25.000 Yeah.

01:51:25.000 Well, one of the things that's opening the doors for them to acknowledge it is soldiers because it's always been kind of like a left-wing-wing thing to be into psychedelics.

01:51:34.000 But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from bombs blowing up and IEDs and concussions.

01:51:43.000 And the only thing that's helping them is psychedelics.

01:51:46.000 So it's kind of like in Texas, former governor Rick Perry has started the Ibogaine Initiative.

01:51:51.000 So they're using Ibogaine to help all of these different soldiers, which is ironically the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed Ed Muskie was on when he was running for president.

01:52:01.000 Yeah, remember when he sank Ed Muskie's.

01:52:04.000 What is Ibogaine?

01:52:05.000 It's from the aboga tree.

01:52:07.000 And it is a psychedelic that is in no way recreational.

01:52:10.000 It is a very difficult experience.

01:52:12.000 It's not fun for anybody.

01:52:13.000 It's like a 24-hour trip.

01:52:16.000 I haven't done it, but my friends that have done it say that it's basically like you see your entire life play out before you.

01:52:22.000 You see where all your problems come from.

01:52:25.000 You see where all of your emotional hitches are.

01:52:28.000 Jesus.

01:52:29.000 And with addictions, it has an 80%, 80%, I think it's 84%.

01:52:29.000 Yeah.

01:52:34.000 With one treatment, they quit whatever they're hooked on.

01:52:37.000 What?

01:52:37.000 Not only that, it rewires the brain.

01:52:40.000 So the physical pathways to addiction, like someone who's addicted to opiates, gone, completely severed.

01:52:46.000 So you literally don't have a physical addiction to opiates anymore.

01:52:49.000 So with one treatment, 80 plus percent of people.

01:52:53.000 With two treatments, it's in the 90s.

01:52:55.000 That's amazing.

01:52:56.000 It's amazing.

01:52:57.000 And it's been illegal, you know, since like 1970 in this country.

01:53:00.000 The sweeping psychedelics.

01:53:02.000 Like a clinic or whatever this is.

01:53:03.000 Well, Rick Perry, because he's worked with soldiers and because he's worked with a lot of veterans that, you know, and he's a very compassionate and intelligent man.

01:53:11.000 And he realized, like, okay, maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelic stuff.

01:53:15.000 And so he started getting behind this Ibogaine initiative.

01:53:18.000 They passed it in Texas, and now they're doing it with soldiers.

01:53:21.000 And they're going to do it with police officers.

01:53:23.000 And I mean, police officers experience more PTSD.

01:53:26.000 Like, I have a good friend who was a cop in Austin, and he said, and he was also in the military.

01:53:30.000 And he said, what I saw in the military was nothing compared to what I saw as a police officer.

01:53:35.000 Really?

01:53:35.000 He goes, I was seeing death and violence on a daily basis.

01:53:39.000 He goes, when you're deployed, he goes, yeah, you're going to see some horrible shit, but you're going to see some horrible shit mixed in, you know, over a course of time where, you know, you go out and things go live.

01:53:50.000 He goes, like, every day.

01:53:52.000 Every day you're going directly to somebody who's having the worst moment of their life.

01:53:55.000 And every day you're pulling someone over and they might shoot you.

01:53:57.000 Like, you have no idea.

01:53:58.000 You're pulling up to tinted windows.

01:54:01.000 You don't know what the fuck is going on.

01:54:03.000 You're running the plate.

01:54:04.000 The license has expired.

01:54:06.000 You have no idea who's in the car.

01:54:08.000 You don't know anything.

01:54:10.000 And you've seen all the videos.

01:54:11.000 We've all seen videos of cops getting shot down when they're pulling over a car.

01:54:14.000 We've all seen it.

01:54:16.000 And so these guys are living with this fucking PTSD all the time.

01:54:19.000 And then they have to live in real life.

01:54:21.000 They're supposed to go home and they're supposed to just be a normal dad and a normal neighbor.

01:54:26.000 And their fucking head is just a hurricane of chaos.

01:54:30.000 And Ibogaine has been very beneficial for those people to just sort of come down and try to find the root of all this stuff and get them off pills and get them on the straight.

01:54:42.000 Wow.

01:54:42.000 That's great.

01:54:43.000 It's amazing.

01:54:44.000 I don't know why we got on the mushrooms.

01:54:45.000 Well, Ibogaine.

01:54:47.000 Because during the presidential elections, he started spreading these rumors.

01:54:54.000 And it's in the documentary.

01:54:57.000 What is that documentary?

01:54:58.000 Is it fear and loathing?

01:55:00.000 Gonzo.

01:55:01.000 Gonzo.

01:55:02.000 In that documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it.

01:55:02.000 That's right.

01:55:04.000 So he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavett.

01:55:05.000 And he goes, yeah, he goes, there was a rumor running around that Ed Muskie was on Ibogaine.

01:55:11.000 And I knew about it because I started that rumor.

01:55:17.000 But he made the guy, so I told it to him.

01:55:19.000 So the guy completely cracked.

01:55:21.000 So this guy was like a frontrunner for the president, and he fucking completely cracked because everybody thought that he was on drugs because Hunter S. Thompson was just running around saying there's these Brazilian witch doctors are coming in to treat this guy.

01:55:34.000 It's crazy shit.

01:55:35.000 That's great.

01:55:37.000 They were like, and Hunter would know.

01:55:40.000 But it's crazy that he chose Ibogaine, too, because Ibogaine is like, it's not a recreational drug, and it's not a drug of addiction.

01:55:47.000 It's literally a drug that stops addiction.

01:55:49.000 But he was the guy that would have the full books full of these fucking esoteric drugs you never heard of.

01:55:54.000 They mentioned in a really casual way.

01:55:56.000 Of course, Corvo stopped to get Ibogaine at the one gas station, the shoulder between needles and nothing.

01:56:02.000 Yeah, sure.

01:56:03.000 No, of course you don't.

01:56:03.000 Yeah, but it does help people that have brain damage as well.

01:56:07.000 It's supposed to cause some sort of neuroregeneration.

01:56:11.000 Yeah.

01:56:13.000 There's stuff out there that can help people, but a large percentage of these fighters are silently suffering, and we don't ever hear about it.

01:56:21.000 They say it's supposed to be that it's like the argument is because they're not using a glove, like that football is supposed to be.

01:56:28.000 I mean, wasn't that the sort of rationale that you were going to have less impact in boxing because the boxing gloves?

01:56:35.000 But it's remember, it's all the sub-concussive blows.

01:56:38.000 It's not necessarily the one shot knocking you out as much as the repeated kind of like small little bit of brain.

01:56:46.000 I'm sure that's like, they're all bad for you.

01:56:48.000 You know what I mean?

01:56:49.000 Like a version of the body.

01:56:50.000 Knots to the head around again over to be avoided.

01:56:53.000 Yeah.

01:56:54.000 Well, it's also what you take in training, too.

01:56:56.000 We're only considering what happens during a fight.

01:56:58.000 If a guy has 40, 50 MMA fights, that's 40%.

01:57:01.000 How many rounds does he have right in the gym?

01:57:03.000 Oh, training camp is fucking brutal.

01:57:06.000 And depending upon how intelligent your camp is, like some people are really smart and they'll spar where they're not hitting each other hard and then maybe one day of the week they go live, but you do it with trusted, you know, they're very close to you.

01:57:19.000 These are people that you care about and love, so they're not going to try to hurt you on purpose.

01:57:22.000 But sometimes not.

01:57:23.000 Like sometimes you're in a hostile gym and you've got to spar with people you don't even know.

01:57:28.000 They're from other countries. 0.98

01:57:29.000 You have a big name.

01:57:30.000 They're trying to take you out.

01:57:33.000 But the amount of damage these guys take.

01:57:35.000 I mean, I don't know if football's better or worse.

01:57:39.000 The thing about football is the big impacts are way worse.

01:57:43.000 Because when you've got a 300-pound super athlete that's fucking full-till all the way from across the morning start.

01:57:53.000 Yeah.

01:57:53.000 You're getting hit by a truck.

01:57:55.000 And that, but that doesn't, it's not targeted necessarily at your head.

01:58:01.000 So it's like, what is better and what is worse?

01:58:04.000 You know, boxing's bad.

01:58:05.000 You know, it's like you have less options.

01:58:07.000 MMA is slightly better because, especially if you're a grappler, you can take guys down and you can beat them up on the ground.

01:58:14.000 But it's ultimately you're paying a price.

01:58:18.000 Make a fucking living.

01:58:19.000 Yeah.

01:58:20.000 But for that glory, for that one moment when they win and the fucking 16,000 people are on their feet screaming, there's probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it.

01:58:29.000 And those guys chase that high for their entire life.

01:58:32.000 And then after it's over, they feel oddly detached.

01:58:36.000 Right.

01:58:36.000 And nothing ever rises to that level again.

01:58:38.000 Right.

01:58:39.000 You can make films until you're 100 years old.

01:58:41.000 You can make great films forever.

01:58:43.000 You can do the thing that you love forever.

01:58:45.000 They have a little window, a little window of greatness.

01:58:48.000 That's the really tough thing about being an athlete.

01:58:50.000 You were talking to Pete Sampras that time we met Sampras years ago.

01:58:53.000 And he was like, we were probably, I don't know how we were 30.

01:58:56.000 He was 32 or something like that.

01:58:58.000 And he was kind of, we were like, oh, my God.

01:59:00.000 He had all these fucking wins and Grand Slams.

01:59:02.000 And he had a kind of vaguely like, yeah, he was like, hey, you guys, look, I'm about to retire.

01:59:07.000 I'm finished.

01:59:09.000 And we're, you know, young guys.

01:59:10.000 We're, you know, just getting started.

01:59:12.000 You know what I mean?

01:59:13.000 Like, we're, also, the thing is, you get better at your job the more you do it.

01:59:17.000 Yeah, you know, and so it's that thing with the athlete.

01:59:20.000 I was having this conversation the other day.

01:59:21.000 It's like you have all the physical skills at the beginning, but you become a better, you know, better at your sport.

01:59:28.000 You know, as your skills are declining.

01:59:28.000 Yeah.

01:59:31.000 The body just doesn't want to do it anymore.

01:59:33.000 And you've got to just come Greg Maddox, you know, and compensate with all the tricks and location.

01:59:40.000 But like, that's why that drama of like the aging athlete is so powerful.

01:59:46.000 It's like, oh, do we still have it in me?

01:59:48.000 Can I still do it?

01:59:49.000 You know, is what I've learned enough to compensate for what I've lost, you know?

01:59:49.000 How long?

01:59:55.000 Well, there's an interesting story about Vitor Belfort.

01:59:58.000 So Vitor Belfort was, he won the UFC heavyweight tournament when he was 19 years old.

02:00:03.000 That was like the first event I ever worked at in 1997.

02:00:06.000 I mean, he was like one of the all-time greats for sure.

02:00:09.000 But as he was getting into his 30s, he was starting to decline.

02:00:12.000 Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy.

02:00:18.000 And boy, did he fucking use it.

02:00:21.000 I don't know what his levels were, but they were like superhuman levels.

02:00:24.000 And there was a moment in time for a few years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy.

02:00:30.000 And people refer to it as the TRT Vitor years because he was fucking terrifying because he has the mind of a veteran, an incredible amount of experience, but now his body is moving like a 25-year-old.

02:00:43.000 And so he was just annihilating people, just lighting people on fire.

02:00:48.000 So they're not allowed to use testosterone or no, they can't use anything.

02:00:51.000 No.

02:00:52.000 How about peptides?

02:00:53.000 Can they use peptides?

02:00:54.000 Nope.

02:00:55.000 Not even peptides.

02:00:55.000 They're trying to take that and reform that.

02:00:59.000 But there's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what they actually do.

02:01:02.000 I mean, all it's allowing you to do is soft tissue injuries, heal quicker, and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones.

02:01:08.000 So instead of adding exogenous hormones, you're allowing your body to produce them more naturally, and it just makes you more healthy.

02:01:16.000 For a very unhealthy job where you're getting hurt all the time, it's going to be better for the sport, better for the athletes to allow them to all use it.

02:01:25.000 And it's also, there's no long-term damage that's going to do like steroids, where it shuts down your endocrine system.

02:01:31.000 So I hope they reform it.

02:01:32.000 But the idea was that there's so many fucking loopholes and so many people cheat.

02:01:37.000 Big camps used to hire scientists.

02:01:40.000 So they had a scientist on staff that was not only procuring.

02:01:44.000 What did he do?

02:01:46.000 Not only procuring stuff that would slip by the test, because there's like, you know, the Balco stuff with very bad, the clear.

02:01:46.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:01:54.000 There's stuff probably right now that people are using that's slipping through.

02:01:58.000 And there's a lot of experts that have, like, one of the things is animal-derived testosterone.

02:02:04.000 So testosterone, one of the, they use a carbon isotope test, I think, I believe that's what they use, to figure out where the testosterone came from.

02:02:12.000 So if your testosterone is like at a very high level, they test all your other ratios.

02:02:17.000 They go, well, no, it all seems likely.

02:02:19.000 He's just, he's an outlier.

02:02:21.000 He just has naturally high testosterone.

02:02:23.000 But testosterone that you get from like synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam.

02:02:30.000 Believe it or not.

02:02:30.000 Yes.

02:02:31.000 Yeah, it's not, it's not animal-derived testosterone.

02:02:34.000 So the composite of it varies when they run the tests on it and they can determine.

02:02:38.000 They can determine that it's yam-based.

02:02:40.000 It's exogenous, not endogenous.

02:02:41.000 It's the yam in this fighting.

02:02:42.000 It's not him.

02:02:43.000 But if they can figure out a way to, and there's a lot of proof of concept to this, can they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources?

02:02:50.000 Bull testosterone.

02:02:51.000 Something like that.

02:02:52.000 Well, the taurine.

02:02:53.000 They used to inject Hitler with taurine.

02:02:56.000 You know, Hitler was like a fucking guinea pig for this one doctor who tried a bunch of shit on him.

02:03:00.000 And one of the things they did was like inject him with bull testicles and stuff to try to keep him virile.

02:03:06.000 Yeah.

02:03:06.000 But there probably are athletes right now that are using some shit that they haven't figured out yet.

02:03:13.000 So to give them any loopholes at all, they're like, no, no, no, fucking no loopholes.

02:03:17.000 No IVs, no nothing.

02:03:19.000 No IVs.

02:03:20.000 No vitamins and right.

02:03:21.000 But the problem with IVs is you can mask testosterone and mask steroids by overflooding the body with liquids.

02:03:29.000 So if you overflow, so then when you're hot because you add more water, you would just fill them up with saline.

02:03:38.000 And then when they go to piss, like, nope, clean.

02:03:41.000 Look at the ratio.

02:03:42.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:03:43.000 Because it's like so much water is being processed through the body that it doesn't have time to show the testosterone.

02:03:47.000 So there's a way to mask it, especially with like things that you would add to the IV.

02:03:53.000 So there's no, you can't, it's only food and approved supplements through like really high-level labs like Thorn, like Thorn supplements where it's third-party tested.

02:04:03.000 So they don't, they can't do anything.

02:04:04.000 But for a while, they let them do it.

02:04:06.000 And those TRT Vitor days are my favorite fights to watch.

02:04:11.000 Did they stop doing fighting because they thought it was like advantaging certain people or they shit happened that they're like, this is fucked up? 0.86

02:04:17.000 Well, they like, look at the difference.

02:04:18.000 That's TRT Vitor on the left, and that's him on the right when they made him get off of it.

02:04:22.000 Look at the difference.

02:04:24.000 Jesus.

02:04:24.000 I mean, that's fucking stunning.

02:04:25.000 On the left, though, dude, that motherfucker was terrifying.

02:04:29.000 When Luke Rockhold fought him, he told me, he goes, dude, when I stood next to him at the fucking weigh-ins, he had muscles on his teeth.

02:04:36.000 He goes, this fucking dude was so jacked. 0.70

02:04:38.000 He was so scared.

02:04:39.000 I was like, what the fuck is he on?

02:04:41.000 Because he knew he was on something.

02:04:43.000 It's just, it's cheating.

02:04:45.000 It really is.

02:04:46.000 Because you can jack your levels way above a normal human being's.

02:04:50.000 And that's what a lot of guys, there were a few fighters that were pulled from cards because, like, say, if a really high level is like 1100, they were testing like 18, 1900.

02:05:00.000 They were like people that have never lived before.

02:05:03.000 They were like a science project.

02:05:05.000 A different species.

02:05:06.000 And they were insane most confident.

02:05:09.000 Insane confidence because they were essentially like a raging gorilla.

02:05:12.000 They were just insanely confident and just so fired up.

02:05:16.000 They couldn't wait to smash somebody because they were just fucking maniacal.

02:05:20.000 They're a berserker. 1.00

02:05:21.000 So it's not a person anymore.

02:05:24.000 Now you're a science project.

02:05:25.000 It's not, you know, there are rare outliers who, like Tyson, when he was in his prime, it's rare physical specimens.

02:05:31.000 And like, that's part of the game.

02:05:33.000 But that's God.

02:05:34.000 You know, that's nature.

02:05:35.000 This is not, you know, Balco Labs.

02:05:37.000 And so they won't allow him to do anything anymore.

02:05:40.000 It's because too many, and Vitor was one of the guys that tested like way over the line.

02:05:40.000 And that's why.

02:05:44.000 And then they just decided.

02:05:47.000 But that's what they're going to do.

02:05:49.000 If you say it's legal, they're just going to take as long as they're going to be.

02:05:51.000 Some muscles good.

02:05:52.000 And, you know.

02:05:52.000 More's better.

02:05:53.000 Yeah.

02:05:53.000 If you say, oh, you did one CC a week, they're like, I heard five.

02:05:56.000 I heard five CCs.

02:05:57.000 And these guys are just training five times a day and they never get tired and they recover like that.

02:06:02.000 So they never have to worry about soft tissue injuries because they heal like you're a fucking six-year-old.

02:06:07.000 You know, you just rip your body just like fucking Wolverine.

02:06:11.000 Yeah.

02:06:12.000 Oh, yeah, man.

02:06:13.000 Well, that's the thing about peptides, too, the Wolverine stack.

02:06:15.000 BP157 and TB500.

02:06:17.000 I don't know if you ever get injured.

02:06:19.000 If you ever get injured, get immediately on BP157 and TB500.

02:06:23.000 I didn't hear about TB500, which what's that one?

02:06:25.000 Thymus and Beta 500.

02:06:26.000 Oh, yeah.

02:06:27.000 In conjunction with BPC 157, it is a fucking phenomenal stack.

02:06:32.000 And it just really helps injury.

02:06:33.000 I didn't know they called it the Wolverine stack.

02:06:35.000 That's what they call it the Wolverine stack.

02:06:37.000 Because you fucking heal incredibly well.

02:06:39.000 I was talking to a pro football player, pulled his hamstring.

02:06:41.000 He's like, dude, I shot that shit right into my hamstring for two weeks and I was right back on the field.

02:06:46.000 Wow.

02:06:46.000 I was like, that's nuts.

02:06:48.000 I go, what is a normal rehab?

02:06:49.000 He goes, three months.

02:06:50.000 He goes, in two weeks, I was back on the field.

02:06:52.000 I go, what the fuck?

02:06:53.000 He goes, I don't know how bad the injury was.

02:06:55.000 He goes, but to me, it's like, fuck.

02:06:57.000 I pulled my hamstring.

02:06:58.000 I'm fucked now for X amount of days.

02:07:00.000 He goes, and two weeks later, I was playing full tilt.

02:07:02.000 Wow.

02:07:02.000 I'm like, that's nuts.

02:07:04.000 And going right into the area of the injury.

02:07:06.000 Right into it.

02:07:07.000 Some people think you don't have to do that.

02:07:08.000 They think it's, you know, systemic.

02:07:10.000 So you just like stick it in your fat on your side.

02:07:13.000 But he's like, no.

02:07:14.000 And most athletes will tell you the best benefit is local.

02:07:17.000 Shoot it locally into the area.

02:07:19.000 And it just has just like cortisone or whatever.

02:07:22.000 What is the cortisone?

02:07:24.000 But cortisone just massively.

02:07:26.000 Not only that, it has a tendency if you do it too many times to weaken tendons.

02:07:31.000 Yeah.

02:07:32.000 And so it could actually exacerbate the problem because it takes away the pain.

02:07:36.000 It takes away the pain.

02:07:36.000 Yeah.

02:07:37.000 But I mean, you know, then there's the enhanced games that are coming out in Vegas here.

02:07:43.000 I know my friend had that idea a long time ago.

02:07:45.000 He was like, you should just do the drug Olympics for cash.

02:07:48.000 He goes, do it in Vegas for cash.

02:07:50.000 And then the enhanced games got together.

02:07:52.000 They're doing it.

02:07:53.000 I sent him a tell you.

02:07:53.000 I was like, they're doing it.

02:07:55.000 Yeah.

02:07:56.000 And it's just like I'm down.

02:07:57.000 I love human beings do.

02:08:00.000 That's what I think.

02:08:01.000 I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs, it was one of the most exciting times in baseball.

02:08:08.000 It was pretty exciting.

02:08:09.000 That's why they didn't do anything.

02:08:10.000 They knew it wasn't a fucking mystery to anybody.

02:08:12.000 Right.

02:08:13.000 But everybody's tuning in.

02:08:14.000 The Bash brothers played baseball on a strike.

02:08:17.000 They almost fucking destroyed that league.

02:08:19.000 And then people started watching because they're hating home runs.

02:08:22.000 And then Bonds is like, well, these two fucking guys are eating this many home runs.

02:08:26.000 I'm the best player in baseball, which he was.

02:08:29.000 And the way he did it, it lights up.

02:08:31.000 You know what I mean?

02:08:32.000 He had a year where he only swung and missed 26 times.

02:08:35.000 162 games.

02:08:37.000 Three and a half half-bats a game.

02:08:39.000 Only swung and missed 20.

02:08:40.000 I mean, that's just, you know, and yeah, Maguire get like, just like move his wrist to get the ball out of the park.

02:08:47.000 And it was like, yeah, it was fun to watch.

02:08:49.000 And when people say like steroids don't make you a better athlete, well, they don't maybe don't make you a better athlete.

02:08:54.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:08:54.000 But if you're a fucking buried person, you're already an elite athlete.

02:08:58.000 Yeah, it makes sense.

02:08:59.000 You let John Jones do all the juice you want, he'd be fighting until he's 50 and fucking people up.

02:09:04.000 And if you say, John, we've really come to our senses.

02:09:07.000 Like, this sport's all about excitement.

02:09:08.000 I want to give the people what they want.

02:09:11.000 Let people make informed choices based on their own discretion.

02:09:14.000 Oh, it's like, then all of a sudden, John looks like Vitor in that picture.

02:09:19.000 He'd be undefeated.

02:09:21.000 By the way, John beat Vitor when Vitor was in his prime, and Vitor caught John in a full arm bar, totally locked his arm out, hyperextended it, popped it, went backwards.

02:09:30.000 You can see the video of it.

02:09:32.000 His elbow is going that way, a wooden tap, and then beat him in the next round.

02:09:36.000 With one arm.

02:09:37.000 Yep.

02:09:37.000 One arm.

02:09:38.000 His arm was fucked for like a year after that.

02:09:42.000 Yeah.

02:09:43.000 Yeah.

02:09:44.000 Give that man some steroids. 1.00

02:09:45.000 Let's see what he does.

02:09:46.000 Steroids.

02:09:47.000 Let him be the king of the world.

02:09:48.000 Yeah.

02:09:49.000 It's a dream team.

02:09:50.000 It's like, remember that first time the pros went to the Olympics, whatever the years?

02:09:54.000 Oh, yeah.

02:09:54.000 Won every game by 70 points.

02:09:56.000 It wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot of fun.

02:09:56.000 Yeah.

02:09:59.000 Well, the argument for that made sense, though, because these other people are being compensated in their countries.

02:10:03.000 Oh, yeah.

02:10:04.000 I had no problem.

02:10:04.000 And by the way, now it's got more.

02:10:06.000 Last Olympic championship was that was a great game against France.

02:10:09.000 That was fabulous.

02:10:11.000 I mean, yeah, they're going to wreck some smaller countries and stuff.

02:10:14.000 But okay, you're playing pros.

02:10:16.000 They're playing pros.

02:10:17.000 The whole definition of amateurism has gotten a little bit like, you know, yes.

02:10:22.000 People find like a convenient definition of it according to what's their, like you see in college sports is changing and stuff.

02:10:27.000 Like, look, I got no problem if you're going to apply the rules evenly, but sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse to like for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the TV deal, like, no, no, no, you guys, you're getting it, you're getting an education.

02:10:38.000 It's like a little bit like, yeah, you're in education.

02:10:38.000 Right.

02:10:40.000 You guys are making a lot of money because people want to see Nebraska play.

02:10:44.000 It's exploitation.

02:10:46.000 Yeah, and I'm glad they've changed that with college sports because these guys are the reason why you're filling up the seats and they deserve that money.

02:10:52.000 Not even one of them is going to be in the NFL.

02:10:54.000 You know what I mean?

02:10:54.000 Some of them, that's their way to make that fucking money.

02:10:57.000 Like, it's hard.

02:10:57.000 You know what I mean?

02:10:58.000 It's hard.

02:11:00.000 And the risk of catastrophic injury is always there.

02:11:02.000 It's constant.

02:11:03.000 Constant.

02:11:04.000 Yeah.

02:11:04.000 And the metrics for it's like, what is it, a two and a half year career or something to the average?

02:11:11.000 Depending on your position.

02:11:12.000 But I mean, it's such a lot.

02:11:14.000 That seems just fair and obvious.

02:11:15.000 So you can pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of college, but not to like, come on.

02:11:19.000 Well, that's the great thing about doing something where you're not relying on your body, like acting.

02:11:25.000 You could kind of do it forever.

02:11:27.000 Keep going until you lose it.

02:11:29.000 It's really.

02:11:30.000 Yeah, it's great.

02:11:31.000 And it's got its own competitive aspect and it's a lot, you know, but like, okay, great.

02:11:36.000 If it's if you really bet on yourself and then the expectation is, well, I got to do something that's interesting enough that people want to watch it.

02:11:42.000 Well, that's the proposition anyway.

02:11:44.000 How do you guys decide on projects that you choose?

02:11:47.000 Like, I'm sure you have so many options now.

02:11:49.000 Like, what makes you say, this is what I'm going to spend the next six months doing?

02:11:54.000 It's really, I mean, there are a bunch of different factors, like the director is being the most important one.

02:12:00.000 But if you read a script and like we've read so many thousands and thousands of scripts and written so many scripts and worked on so many movies that If we read something and it's that thing we were talking about earlier, you know, you get that kind of emotional, something happens when you read it.

02:12:20.000 You go, okay, well, then you pay attention to it, maybe read it again, go, wait a minute.

02:12:24.000 You know, if it moves you in that way, then, you know, ultimately the big decision is saying yes because you're going to spend the last point over which you have total control.

02:12:36.000 You know, and then you're in.

02:12:36.000 Right.

02:12:37.000 Then you're in.

02:12:40.000 And you're in whether it's good or bad.

02:12:41.000 I mean, I've been on those movies where I knew a month into a six-month shoot that like, this is not going to work.

02:12:49.000 And that is the fucking shit.

02:12:51.000 What is that like?

02:12:52.000 It's the worst.

02:12:53.000 It is.

02:12:54.000 I came to think of that.

02:12:55.000 It happened and they're going to shoot us all when it comes out.

02:12:58.000 Yeah.

02:12:58.000 Okay.

02:12:58.000 It's like it's all bad.

02:13:00.000 It's like it's going to be 80, 16 hour days in a row, and then a post-production period that's going to be pretty fraught.

02:13:09.000 And then it's going to come out and we're going to get fucking crushed.

02:13:11.000 And then you're going to have to sell it.

02:13:13.000 You're going to have to walk the fucking plank and sit down with access.

02:13:17.000 You know what I mean?

02:13:18.000 Like so.

02:13:19.000 Saw the movie.

02:13:21.000 How important is that stuff still today?

02:13:24.000 Like the press stuff.

02:13:25.000 Is that still important?

02:13:26.000 It is.

02:13:27.000 I don't know to what degree each specific thing is.

02:13:30.000 I mean, it's kind of ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today.

02:13:32.000 And we've been saying, I was like, we were doing this show.

02:13:35.000 This is probably more meaningful than the rest of the shit we do in aggregate.

02:13:39.000 To promote this movie.

02:13:40.000 Like we spent this whole week in New York doing, you know, I don't know how many interviews, you know, the quick ones with all the five-minute interviews, all the evening shows, the day shows.

02:13:49.000 Yeah, all that stuff.

02:13:51.000 And this, just given how many people listen to the show will be more meaningful.

02:13:57.000 We think, I mean, that's our, we were speculating.

02:14:00.000 Historically, right?

02:14:01.000 If you look at it, that's it because they've changed to like all of it feels kind of produced and forced and advertised and people have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick and you go on and you do your song and dance and they say the thing it looks great and nobody cares.

02:14:15.000 Like they're looking to go either because somebody they know says it's interesting or somebody that they is trusted and a trusted person is in like your, like you said, your feed, right?

02:14:24.000 And it's your friend or your cousin or it's or they affix that to somebody which has become a more rare thing like who's a like a legitimate neutral arbiter, right?

02:14:34.000 Who I can't predict what they're going to say before I go there.

02:14:38.000 There are a few of those, fewer and fewer of those people in the world, even those are proliferation of more and more voices.

02:14:45.000 And it's kind of paradoxical.

02:14:47.000 Like the form of entertainment is getting shorter and shorter and shorter.

02:14:51.000 So you're like a seven second, you know, we're an advertising company.

02:14:54.000 We do most of the spots that we release, like 15 second spots, six second spots for social, the ones most people see.

02:15:00.000 And then there's this one form, which is like long form discussions that are whatever, two hours long.

02:15:08.000 And the amazing thing to me is, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people to pay attention more than a few seconds, there's a kind of a hunger for that.

02:15:16.000 So there's like this form, and that's why you see these are getting more popular.

02:15:19.000 Obviously, you have this massive audience.

02:15:21.000 And it's kind of flying in the face of the whole other trend.

02:15:26.000 And I think, and I don't know, that it probably has something to do with like, who do I think is authentic?

02:15:32.000 And am I actually going to willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen through?

02:15:38.000 And that an argument that people probably do appreciate and understand conversations that have context and nuance and where there's like a back and forth.

02:15:47.000 They're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of give that sort of voice to in their life.

02:15:55.000 It's also the voice of the public too, because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online and people just start like saying how great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that, it just takes off organically now.

02:16:09.000 Yeah, and that has more weight than anything.

02:16:11.000 If you feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight is going, hey, this is great.

02:16:16.000 You should see it.

02:16:16.000 I'm the same thing.

02:16:17.000 If I hear somebody tell me, like, you know, who I respect, hey, you got to see that thing.

02:16:21.000 That means more to me than anything, right?

02:16:23.000 Because I believe that.

02:16:24.000 And so the closer you can get to that, which is why I think the act of, A, like telling the same story about you should go see the movie to a bunch of people with a certain limited reach, it's just not that efficient.

02:16:40.000 But you have to because it's like, well, we sat down with our own Patricia Zanaka and talked about the movie.

02:16:45.000 And you kind of do that ostensibly because it means a little bit more in that market.

02:16:51.000 But I think ultimately it's like more and more people realize they're being sold to, see through the fucking act and this sort of bullshit of it.

02:16:59.000 They recognize that, you know, you go out and sell every movie, you know what I mean?

02:17:03.000 The good and the bad.

02:17:04.000 And then we got to decide, well, which one, and who can you count on?

02:17:06.000 Well, it's mostly going to be that, like, the word of mouth, your friend.

02:17:10.000 And now you can see that person in your media experience, you know.

02:17:13.000 Yeah.

02:17:14.000 And I think it's also we know that when you're sitting down with extra or all these things, like that's just their job to sit down with people.

02:17:21.000 They're not doing it because they want to.

02:17:23.000 Right.

02:17:23.000 You know, it's like, they got told, go talk to that person.

02:17:26.000 Exactly.

02:17:27.000 And we got told, go talk to them.

02:17:29.000 So we go do the ritual.

02:17:31.000 And they say the thing they say and we say the thing we say.

02:17:34.000 And everyone goes home and says we did our job.

02:17:36.000 That's the benefit of an independent podcast is that like, like with me, I don't talk to anybody I don't want to talk to.

02:17:42.000 It's just like I literally do the whole thing on my phone.

02:17:45.000 I go, oh yeah, that sounds cool.

02:17:47.000 And that's it.

02:17:48.000 But like that, I think, means a lot.

02:17:50.000 At least this person's making this choice.

02:17:52.000 And I've listened to it a bunch and I actually find myself agreeing with it a lot of the time.

02:17:55.000 So, all right, I'll give it a shot.

02:17:58.000 I think also like this format, at least I know why I started listening to the podcast was because in the world, like the divisive kind of, the way everybody was talking, these sound bites and all this shit.

02:18:12.000 And it was just like the ability to just listen to human beings talk, often who had different points of view, but like had a civil conversation was like, was such a welcome thing, given the kind of the hysterical kind of frenzy of divisiveness that's kind of, it just feels, it's just like, you know, it's like if I open my phone and look at the news, I've been like, fuck.

02:18:42.000 And it's like, put it down.

02:18:43.000 It's just, it's like, I feel my cortisol level go up.

02:18:47.000 And to actually hear people, listen to people I know I don't agree with, but listen to them and just and just think about it.

02:18:54.000 You know what I mean?

02:18:55.000 I mean, approach life with a little bit of humility.

02:18:57.000 Not hold on to what you believe, obviously, but keep listening.

02:19:03.000 It's also there's not a lot of opportunities in the real world to have long conversations with people.

02:19:08.000 So people are kind of starving for that.

02:19:10.000 I know.

02:19:10.000 Isn't it funny that this has become the shared cultural like we listen to that podcast and then actually experience that because and also people, why don't people trust the media?

02:19:19.000 Well, because the media doesn't do that because they compress it and because the truth, it's money.

02:19:24.000 Because actually doing that is not with money.

02:19:25.000 It's just ratings and the perceived idea that like, well, if you simplify it or you position it one way or another, you engender outrage and that's simple or just pure one-sided ideas that are that are simple.

02:19:40.000 But the news used to be the idea was, look, here's the FCC.

02:19:44.000 We're going to let these networks broadcast their shows and make money on it.

02:19:47.000 But here's the deal.

02:19:48.000 You got to give an hour of that and lose money on that hour to tell the news and try to tell it objectively.

02:19:53.000 Then it started to be, no, you got to make money for that hour too.

02:19:56.000 And if you're going to make money, that's a different incentive than tell the truth or reporters or any of those things.

02:20:02.000 And people try to hybridize them.

02:20:05.000 But at the end of the day, you're a more successful reporter if more people watch you because advertisers pay more.

02:20:11.000 And then they're doing the same thing, looking at their data, you know, Grant.

02:20:14.000 What are people watching?

02:20:15.000 What kinds of stories?

02:20:16.000 And I think this is simple answers because you're just making it into a profit game.

02:20:21.000 Those incentives are not aligned with just trying to get down to like even reporting basic facts.

02:20:28.000 Yeah, it's a weird time.

02:20:29.000 It's like we have more access to information than ever before, but so much of it is just horseshit.

02:20:33.000 Yeah.

02:20:34.000 You know, it's hard to stay balanced.

02:20:38.000 And I think that's why it's good to like listen to the people just talk.

02:20:38.000 Yeah.

02:20:41.000 Yeah.

02:20:42.000 And then you recognize like the flaws in their thinking.

02:20:45.000 You feel ego.

02:20:46.000 You feel deception, bullshit.

02:20:50.000 People will reveal themselves.

02:20:50.000 It's true.

02:20:51.000 Like you actually, we actually don't need that many editorialists to be constantly telling us what to think and how to think.

02:20:57.000 People actually have pretty good instincts.

02:20:59.000 You know, if someone's bullshitting, you eventually they'll kind of hang themselves.

02:21:02.000 Like you said, you'll get that vibe.

02:21:04.000 After a while, he kind of started repeating his shtick and I kind of didn't really talk about what I was wondering about.

02:21:10.000 And you form your own, that's like forming your own judgment.

02:21:13.000 Pete Buttigig actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts.

02:21:17.000 He's like, because you go on there and you have your points, but you'll get revealed over the course of a few hours.

02:21:24.000 Like you can only stick to these lines.

02:21:27.000 Yeah, you can only talking points and bullshit.

02:21:30.000 And then what happens is people just like there was an art to like, look at how great that communicator stick to the message and they do their points.

02:21:37.000 Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds, but any longer than that, it just starts to look like a fucking robot on, you know, and like I said, what we need to follow through with, you know, like, yeah, sometimes you can get the same hand gesture and the same bit with that, but I'm, you know.

02:21:50.000 Sometimes you find out they're full of shit just by having them talk about other things.

02:21:54.000 You know, like, tell me, do you like cooking?

02:21:56.000 You know, like, just like, and then you just see like some concocted.

02:22:00.000 They're thinking, what makes me look good about cooking?

02:22:03.000 Exactly.

02:22:04.000 Well, I tell you what, because I know what America can screw myself. 0.93

02:22:07.000 That's exactly it.

02:22:08.000 Do I cook or do I not?

02:22:10.000 What would I does that make me feminine or does it make me open to cultural systems? 0.79

02:22:14.000 Yeah.

02:22:15.000 What do you like to cook, man?

02:22:17.000 I don't cook.

02:22:18.000 Well, that's the other thing about people that are online too much is they're so concerned with other people's opinions that they don't have enough time to formulate their own.

02:22:28.000 They're just so concerned with how people are going to perceive everything you say that you're like handcuffed.

02:22:32.000 You're like terrified to misspeak.

02:22:35.000 Right.

02:22:36.000 I think that in general is a real fucking danger.

02:22:36.000 Right.

02:22:39.000 I mean, we were talking the other day.

02:22:40.000 We were saying about like one of the benefits of getting older and doing this for a long time is you realize like nobody really gives a shit as much about you as you do.

02:22:50.000 You know, you just kind of kind of give a fuck.

02:22:52.000 Nobody remembers in your 20s and 30s and thinking like this is really important.

02:22:55.000 And then you realize no one fucks.

02:22:56.000 I'm going to come off.

02:22:57.000 And what's going to be a deal.

02:23:00.000 Nobody makes it.

02:23:01.000 Most people are mostly worrying about themselves in their life.

02:23:03.000 And then there's this illusion that they pay a passing moment of attention or it's in some story.

02:23:09.000 It's like you're fucking staring at it because it's about you.

02:23:11.000 Right.

02:23:12.000 You know, you know, that kid said that about me.

02:23:14.000 Nobody else really cares.

02:23:16.000 Yeah.

02:23:16.000 And if they do, they're usually fucked up.

02:23:18.000 Like something's wrong.

02:23:19.000 Why concentrate on this other person's life?

02:23:21.000 That's right.

02:23:22.000 You're probably trying to ignore your own bullshit.

02:23:24.000 Yeah.

02:23:24.000 Right.

02:23:25.000 Well, listen, man, your movie's fucking awesome.

02:23:27.000 I've loved so much of your films over the years.

02:23:31.000 So it's been really cool to be able to have you guys in here and talk about this.

02:23:33.000 It's been great.

02:23:34.000 Thanks for having me.

02:23:35.000 Two very normal, nice movie stars.

02:23:39.000 You guys are cool as fuck.

02:23:40.000 Give us a couple more hours.

02:23:41.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:23:42.000 I enjoyed it.

02:23:43.000 And I really enjoyed the rip.

02:23:45.000 It's fucking great.

02:23:46.000 And everybody, go see it.

02:23:47.000 It's great.

02:23:48.000 I loved it.

02:23:49.000 Thanks for being here.

02:23:49.000 Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - January 16, 2026

Joe Rogan Experience #2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

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Summary

Transcript