The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2454 - Robert Malone, MD

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night, all day!

00:00:12.000 Yep, bro.

00:00:13.000 We were trying to figure out how long it's been since you came here.

00:00:16.000 It's been somewhere in the neighborhood, close to five years.

00:00:20.000 Yeah.

00:00:21.000 A lot of water under the bridge.

00:00:24.000 Your appearance on this show, boy, did that create a lot of problems.

00:00:28.000 Yeah.

00:00:30.000 Yeah, I didn't expect you ever having me on again.

00:00:32.000 I thought maybe Spotify was just going to say, hell no.

00:00:35.000 No, you were right.

00:00:37.000 Like, this is a victory dance.

00:00:39.000 Like, it turned out that all your warnings and all the things that you were saying about the problems turned out to be true.

00:00:46.000 Well, thanks.

00:00:47.000 And I know you've said that on a few shows.

00:00:49.000 Every time you do, somebody sends me a clip and sees, hey, Rogan said you did the right thing.

00:00:55.000 What was it like for you?

00:00:57.000 First of all, they were trying to label you a quack and a kook and didn't know what they're talking about.

00:01:04.000 I don't think it worked with everybody.

00:01:06.000 I mean, it worked with people that weren't paying attention.

00:01:09.000 But anybody that really paid attention to your background said, no, this guy's very credible.

00:01:14.000 I mean, don't you have like nine patents on mRNA vaccine technology?

00:01:19.000 Yeah, on the mRNA, yeah, and a total of about 15, I think.

00:01:24.000 And you also took the vaccine and had a horrible adverse event.

00:01:29.000 A series of them, yeah.

00:01:30.000 Yeah.

00:01:31.000 That at the time, it was so early.

00:01:33.000 That was when the National Guard was still doing it, and that was Moderna.

00:01:37.000 And I was embarrassed to have these experiences.

00:01:44.000 And I was embarrassed when I got COVID in early 2020.

00:01:49.000 You know, looking back, there was so much fear, so much anger and anxiety and everything wrapped around all of this.

00:02:06.000 And in retrospect, it was, you know, it was promoted, but it was also very organic.

00:02:13.000 You know, it was, you know, looking back, being honest about it, it was a frightening time, what was happening.

00:02:21.000 And yeah, I had those experiences. 1.00

00:02:27.000 My doc, who was a cardiologist, was like, why were you so stupid to take this? 1.00

00:02:33.000 Your doctor said that, too. 1.00

00:02:35.000 In 2021?

00:02:36.000 Yeah.

00:02:38.000 2020 or 2021?

00:02:39.000 It was 2021, 2021.

00:02:42.000 Yeah.

00:02:44.000 I was going to a cardiologist that had left traditional medical practice at UVA and the associated hospitals.

00:02:56.000 And I was going to her for hormone replacement therapy and bioidentical hormone replacement therapy.

00:03:04.000 And she was monitoring a lot of things.

00:03:06.000 And yeah, that was her response.

00:03:09.000 Why did you do this?

00:03:10.000 Of course, I've had that question a thousand times since. 1.00

00:03:13.000 You know, why were you so stupid? 1.00

00:03:14.000 You were the one that should have known. 1.00

00:03:17.000 And so I have to answer that still.

00:03:19.000 It kind of gets a little tiresome.

00:03:22.000 What was your perspective on the vaccine before you took it?

00:03:29.000 To be honest, I was a little, I was amazed.

00:03:34.000 I was amazed that the claims that the problems that I encountered when I had been working on it had been solved.

00:03:44.000 I didn't see how that could be the case, but I knew that a huge amount of money had been thrown at it, so it was possible.

00:03:50.000 What were the problems?

00:03:52.000 In my hands, it was inflammation primarily.

00:03:55.000 It was also, you know, it was absolutely not localizable.

00:04:00.000 It was, in the monkey models that we tested, it was incredibly inflammatory.

00:04:06.000 It didn't give long levels, long, prolonged levels of expression.

00:04:12.000 It was hard to make.

00:04:13.000 It was kind of back then, it was almost a little bit of witchcraft.

00:04:19.000 You'd drop, I mean, for me as a graduate student when I was doing that, it was incredibly scary because it was a couple thousand dollars worth of reagents in a little tiny tube.

00:04:28.000 And, you know, back in the late 80s, that was real money.

00:04:32.000 And it didn't always work, the reaction.

00:04:36.000 So, you know, it was a little bit of a wing and a prayer.

00:04:41.000 But then as I started working with animal models and with the different formulations, I could come up with a variety of different compounds and formulations that worked pretty well in cell culture, but not so well in animals.

00:04:58.000 And I spent a lot of time trying to do that, optimize that, and what I ended up with is just seeing that it really caused, you know, I'm sorry to use medical jargon, that's kind of where I'm from, so that's the language of the microphone.

00:05:12.000 No, it's probably better.

00:05:14.000 It caused a lot of inflammation, you know, white cell infiltrates, really aggressive white cell infiltrates in my hands in both mice and monkeys.

00:05:23.000 And I'd abandoned it as something that just, you know, was useful in research, particularly in cell culture, but I just didn't see it maturing as an efficient delivery strategy with low risk, you know, acceptable risk, in animals.

00:05:45.000 And that also became the experience at this company that I had first joined where a lot of the original patents were filed, ViCal.

00:05:56.000 They abandoned the RNA because they couldn't make it.

00:06:01.000 And they turned largely to this strange discovery that we had that was a negative control, that the RNA alone or DNA alone was actually more effective in animal models, mice for instance, than it was to use the positively charged fats.

00:06:25.000 Now people call them lipid nanoplexes, lots of fancy words around it.

00:06:30.000 It was just positively charged fats of various types that were mixed that bind the DNA or the RNA and kind of spontaneously assemble.

00:06:41.000 And a lot of work went into trying to improve that.

00:06:44.000 We did what we could in the 90s when I was at Davis to try to advance that technology and develop new lipids.

00:06:52.000 And we had a number of them get patented and they were marketed by ProMega and others, but could never solve the delivery in vivo.

00:07:00.000 But this group up in University of British Columbia that had been banging away at this kind of related liposome tech for years and years, even before I had known anything about it, were the ones that kind of came up with the magic sauce that is used essentially by both the Moderna and Pfizer products.

00:07:25.000 And that's the stuff that we've all been exposed to, those that have taken it.

00:07:31.000 So when you were first experimenting, you said it couldn't be localized.

00:07:36.000 So meaning that in the injection site, it was supposed to be there, and then your body was supposed to produce antibodies because of the injection.

00:07:43.000 Yeah, and it goes all over.

00:07:45.000 But it went all over the body.

00:07:46.000 But the assertion, what they were telling you when you got the shot initially was that it was not going to leave the injection site.

00:07:46.000 Yeah, it does.

00:07:52.000 Yeah, and I called my colleagues at University of British Columbia that I had known back in the day as I was grappling with whether or not to take the product because I had to travel.

00:08:08.000 As you recall back then, forget international travel if you weren't jabbed.

00:08:12.000 Even national travel.

00:08:14.000 Yeah.

00:08:14.000 You couldn't get on an airplane.

00:08:15.000 But in Canada, it was even worse.

00:08:17.000 You couldn't get on a train.

00:08:20.000 Yeah, so I called Peter and had a chat with him, and he said that they had solved the problems of the distribution, that now when you injected it, it would stay local.

00:08:32.000 It would go to the draining lymph nodes.

00:08:35.000 It was much more effective, and that they didn't have those safety issues anymore.

00:08:39.000 So that was one of the reasons why I decided to go ahead.

00:08:42.000 Did you ask how they solved that problem?

00:08:44.000 Yeah, yeah, I asked in detail because I knew some of the nature of the formulations.

00:08:49.000 Again, I don't want to get too technical.

00:08:52.000 But what was claimed was that the incorporation of polyethylene glycol, so this is, you know, you would know that as antifreeze.

00:09:04.000 But it's in the liposome world, it's long been known as a way to create what are known as stealth liposomes that circulate in your body for a long period of time and make it so that these particles don't get inactivated by extracellular proteins and the liver and stuff like that.

00:09:23.000 And so he was using the gentleman in particular named Peter Cullis.

00:09:30.000 By the way, he's the one that should have got the Nobel Prize for these products as far as I'm concerned and got slided in the pick.

00:09:37.000 But Peter Cullis said that they had experimented with a lot of different structures of the fat particles, chemical structures.

00:09:47.000 So they came up with some that had these properties of staying localized and then built the formulations in ways that were similar to what I'd done with cholesterol and other things, but then also added these shorter polyethylene glycol molecules attached with a really short organic, you call it fat or gasoline-like molecule,

00:10:13.000 that put the peg into the liposome particle, but in a way that once it got into the body, it would fall off.

00:10:22.000 And so this is, you know, some people have the sensation as I did with my second jab of, you know, you get it and then suddenly you feel tingling in the end of your fingers or things like that.

00:10:33.000 That may be the peg.

00:10:35.000 But it was those advances in the components, because these are self-assembling particles, that were used that Peter and his group.

00:10:49.000 Peter McCall?

00:10:50.000 No, Peter Cullis, P-I-E-T-E-R, from UBC and his group built these products with in this technology.

00:11:00.000 And that was, they had it available that their choice, because they created companies for this.

00:11:09.000 I mean, a ton of money must have been made because they licensed it non-exclusively to BioNTech and Moderna.

00:11:19.000 And that's still kind of the core tech that makes this particular category of products work.

00:11:28.000 And so this was enough to convince you that they had solved that problem.

00:11:34.000 Yeah, I took his word about it.

00:11:35.000 I mean, he's an extremely experienced, knowledgeable liposome formulation expert, quite senior.

00:11:43.000 He's older than me by another decade at least, and been doing this forever.

00:11:48.000 And he asserted that he had solved the problems.

00:11:52.000 And I believed him.

00:11:53.000 I needed to travel internationally.

00:11:57.000 And also, there was this buzz going around at the time that if you had long COVID, which at the time, if you think back to then, there was a whole cloud over even using the words long COVID, that the idea that you would have these long-lasting effects from getting the infection was controversial and not really accepted, but partially promoted.

00:12:27.000 And there was a narrative that was in retrospect actively promoted that if you took the vaccines and if you had this symptom of this chronic malaise and loss of stamina, I mean, you're a guy that's, it's important to you to be physically fit.

00:12:46.000 For me, it's been important to be physically fit all my life because I've always been a farmer and a carpenter and worked with my hands and my body.

00:12:55.000 And I have farm chores.

00:12:57.000 I still have farm chores every day.

00:12:59.000 And I couldn't do them.

00:13:00.000 I couldn't walk up hills.

00:13:02.000 I just had lost my stamina.

00:13:04.000 I'd lost my pulmonary function.

00:13:07.000 And it wasn't getting better.

00:13:09.000 And nobody knew anything about this, what was causing it, whether it was even real, but I was experiencing it.

00:13:17.000 There's a whole cluster of people who say there's no virus, and there's certainly not any long COVID, but I experienced it.

00:13:24.000 And so it was promoted that if you took the jab and you had this symptom, then it would kick your immune system up.

00:13:33.000 You get more of a response to the spike antigen, and that would allow you to clear these symptoms of long COVID.

00:13:42.000 That turns out, now we have data in just fairly recently, that in fact the opposite is true.

00:13:48.000 So this idea of long COVID, so you got long COVID from the actual infection of COVID-19 before the jab.

00:13:56.000 Yeah, I got infected in late, very end of February 2020.

00:14:02.000 I was in Boston at a conference on drug discovery, computational drug discovery, high-throughput stuff, very high-tech MIT, and staying in a little firehouse that had been converted to a hotel right across the street from the biotech company that the initial Boston outbreak was associated with.

00:14:24.000 And I came home sick as a dog.

00:14:26.000 I thought that I had influenza B because the narrative was that was circulating at the time.

00:14:35.000 And I was just, I remember laying in bed just feeling sick as hell, hard to breathe.

00:14:42.000 And my wife came in, it's just been on the TV.

00:14:47.000 COVID is circulating right there in Boston where you were.

00:14:52.000 So that was pretty early on, and it hit me pretty hard.

00:14:56.000 So that would have been the Wuhan 1 variant.

00:15:01.000 And then there was a couple of genetic changes that occurred, apparently, in Boston around that time.

00:15:09.000 So how long did this affect you, this long COVID?

00:15:13.000 I was sick until I took the jab, you know, just not having stamina, just feeling – How many months was that?

00:15:25.000 I had never even thought about it.

00:15:27.000 Many months.

00:15:28.000 And did you try anything else to mitigate those symptoms?

00:15:31.000 Yeah, I did.

00:15:32.000 So my whole story, there's a whole bunch of what I did back then that never gets discussed, and that's okay.

00:15:41.000 But the kickoff was that I got this call from Wuhan, I think.

00:15:48.000 It was Remuhan from this guy that used to be CIA named Michael Callahan, who I'd worked with in the past.

00:15:56.000 And had told me, he told me with the call that there was this virus in Wuhan, this coronavirus, that looked like it was going to be serious.

00:16:05.000 And I ought to pay attention to it, and I ought to get a team wound up to try to address this.

00:16:10.000 So, what I'd done, because this is coming off of what I did in Zika, I'm a vaccinologist at CORE, but developing a vaccine in the face of an outbreak historically has taken a decade.

00:16:28.000 And it just isn't a practical way to address an emergent infectious disease crisis.

00:16:35.000 And I had become convinced that the best way to do that was through repurposed drugs.

00:16:41.000 So, after I get this call, I put the team together building on the technology that I'd been working with at USAMRID during Zika for rapid identification of repurposed drugs to address a new crisis.

00:17:02.000 And this time, we'd really taken a computational approach.

00:17:07.000 So, I used some tech out of UC San Francisco to recreate one of the key proteins in SARS-CoV-2 based on the sequence that got published from Wuhan in January 11th, I think, of 2020.

00:17:23.000 And we started doing what's called computational docking of very, very large virtual libraries using Amazon AWS and high-throughput parallel processing and came up with a list of compounds and then kind of screened those against problems, adverse events, that kind of stuff.

00:17:48.000 More coffee, good.

00:17:50.000 I would, thank you.

00:17:52.000 And what's happening?

00:17:55.000 So, I had this list of compounds, and then I was sick as a dog.

00:18:01.000 And, you know, what you get trained in if you do clinical research is docs don't experiment on themselves.

00:18:08.000 That's like breaking the rules.

00:18:11.000 But I'm lying there so sick that I'm just like, what the hell?

00:18:14.000 What do I got to lose?

00:18:15.000 I'm probably going to die.

00:18:16.000 You know, at that point, I'd spent a lot of time already looking into the virus and what it was causing and what people were saying it was causing.

00:18:24.000 And how old were you at the time?

00:18:27.000 Let's see, I'm 66 now, so that's 60, 61.

00:18:32.000 Yeah, so you were in a high-risk group?

00:18:34.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:18:35.000 And I was obese.

00:18:36.000 I don't know if you noticed, but I've dropped about 40 to 50 pounds since we last met.

00:18:41.000 So I started taking some of those compounds, and one of them was this drug that is normally taken for stomach acid called famatidine.

00:18:53.000 And I got an immediate response with that.

00:18:58.000 And so I also tried isoquercetin.

00:19:02.000 That didn't seem to make so much of an impact on me.

00:19:05.000 But I experimented on myself.

00:19:07.000 And the famatidine at higher doses now has been verified to be helpful.

00:19:14.000 And it was one of the first things out of the box that people started taking even prophylactically before we knew about ivermectin and other things.

00:19:23.000 And then that went on.

00:19:24.000 I mean, there's a whole thread here we could go on for an hour about what was done with the repurposed drugs.

00:19:30.000 I was working closely with the Defense Hurt Reduction Agency and I managed to capture a few hundred million dollars and direct that towards drug repurposing adaptive clinical trials, et cetera.

00:19:49.000 And the thing that I zoomed in on through a collaboration with a doc up in Minnesota was the combination of famatidine, another anti-inflammatory called silicoxib.

00:20:07.000 And then the thing that really kicked it in high gear was the forbidden horse medicine, ivermectin.

00:20:15.000 And we got, I managed to, working with DOD, got over $100 million, set up a contract.

00:20:24.000 It got managed by SAIC, and we were going to go after that using a very cutting-edge clinical trial design.

00:20:35.000 And remember, this is the DOD.

00:20:41.000 We submitted initial drug applications for using this combination of licensed drugs, well-known licensed drugs.

00:20:51.000 And the FDA just dug in, again and again, rejected the application.

00:20:58.000 So long, what they said was we were going to have to do cell culture tests to demonstrate the antiviral activity of ivermectin before they would allow us to proceed.

00:21:10.000 And so in the end, the DOD caved, and they dropped the ivermectin component and proceeded with the fumatidine and silicoxib, which showed some effect.

00:21:20.000 Why were they so hesitant?

00:21:23.000 What was the resistance?

00:21:26.000 Your guess is as good as mine.

00:21:27.000 I really, people think that I have visibility into the FDA, and yeah, I've met with them, and I have a background in regulatory affairs, but the policy decisions that were made during COVID and still to this day are perplexing.

00:21:41.000 So particularly ivermectin.

00:21:43.000 Oh, it was like a high sin.

00:21:48.000 They deployed, what do we want to call it, propaganda, psychological warfare, nudge, everything, just like they did after you and I had our little discussion.

00:22:01.000 It was stunning.

00:22:02.000 I mean, like after we had our chat, I don't know if you remember, you asked me about what is this about mass formation psychosis.

00:22:13.000 And it, I mean, the term broke the internet is overused.

00:22:18.000 It broke the internet.

00:22:20.000 The search results on Google went nuts.

00:22:24.000 Well, because it perfectly described what was happening.

00:22:27.000 Oh, and couldn't be, no, it couldn't possibly describe what was happening, even though every single person that heard it knew damn well it did.

00:22:37.000 But it was forbidden.

00:22:38.000 I mean, this was forbidden because – For people who didn't hear our first discussion, please explain mass formation psychosis.

00:22:44.000 So – So since then, I've had a shitstorm come at me for using the term psychosis coupled with mass formation.

00:22:52.000 You can't, you know, the grief, you think you got a lot of grief from Spotify and from.

00:22:57.000 Spotify was actually great.

00:22:59.000 No grief from them.

00:23:00.000 It was from like Neil Young and Joni Mitchell and artists.

00:23:04.000 So you probably don't know the whole backstory.

00:23:08.000 Okay.

00:23:10.000 That's fun to dive into because it relates to the psychological warfare domain that now I've become a pseudo-expert on, just in trying to understand what the hell I experienced and what's going on.

00:23:22.000 So Matthias Desmut, who's a friend at University of Ghent in Belgium, who, by the way, has been pretty well railroaded in his university now.

00:23:33.000 Not allowed to teach his own book on the psychological basis of totalitarianism, which is where that book had not come out yet.

00:23:41.000 But it was the mass formation hypothesis is what was the kind of core of that book that's now published and widely regarded.

00:23:53.000 So Matthias came, Matthias is somebody who, as a PhD, a full professor, had long taught 20th century psychology work relating to totalitarianism and thought that goes back to Freud and beyond, really all the way back to Plato and the allegory of the cave.

00:24:18.000 And in particular, there was a number of philosophers in the 20th century associated with trying to make sense of Nazi Germany and what had happened to the German people and really all over the world, but particularly relating to the Germans.

00:24:35.000 And Matthias had been teaching this on a regular basis.

00:24:39.000 And the way he tells the story, he had an epiphany one day that, oh my God, the thing that I've been teaching, I'm living.

00:24:47.000 We're experiencing it.

00:24:48.000 We're experiencing this process of the formation of masses.

00:24:55.000 And you could call it crowd psychology.

00:24:59.000 So mass formation, it's kind of awkward or mass formation psychosis, which is what the term was that was used in the initial podcast that he gave out.

00:25:08.000 So that's why I use that term.

00:25:11.000 But, you know, it's not in the, the attack was that it's not in the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual for the American Psychiatric Association, so therefore it doesn't exist.

00:25:24.000 But, you know, all the attacks.

00:25:27.000 But the core of it is that when people, to make it simple, become disassociated from society and from each other, they become extremely vulnerable to manipulation of a variety of different types.

00:25:43.000 And a leader can come into that environment and offer, to simplify it, offer a solution to their pain.

00:25:55.000 Because being isolated, socially isolated, is associated with pain.

00:25:58.000 We as human beings have a need to connect with others.

00:26:02.000 It's a fundamental aspect of being human.

00:26:05.000 It's what you do.

00:26:06.000 I mean, you connect.

00:26:08.000 That's the essence of the Joe Rogan experience, I think.

00:26:12.000 So we need to connect with others.

00:26:14.000 And in certain situations where people are threatened, and in particular in the modern era, where we have all of these things that drive us into isolation, most notably our electronic tools, we become disassociated from our community.

00:26:33.000 And when that happens, we have a strong need to become associated with community.

00:26:38.000 And a leader can come into that environment and basically say, I have the solution to your pain, your psychological pain.

00:26:48.000 And what will happen is a strange phenomenon where people will, rather than building social networks, let's say horizontally, to those around them, they'll attach to this strong leader.

00:27:02.000 And they'll get fulfillment for that need to belong by this attachment to that leader and following the edicts of that leader.

00:27:14.000 And this leads to this phenomena that gives rise, you know, enables totalitarianism, but gives rise to this whole cluster of things that Mistius described that He uses the term mass formation in a way that's kind of an odd artifact of translation, I guess, from the Dutch.

00:27:39.000 An easier way to think of it is crowd formation.

00:27:46.000 And in his examination of the history of what happened in Nazi Germany, where things, people really went crazy.

00:27:58.000 I mean, mothers were turning their children in.

00:28:02.000 Children were being executed consequent to mothers' testimony, which is really strange when you think about it, just in a fundamental way.

00:28:14.000 We had all of this dear leader kind of stuff, the linkage of the self and the soul to this central figure in deriving a sense of identity and belonging from that that went on.

00:28:36.000 And there's still people from that generation in Germany that are still caught up in a lot of that.

00:28:47.000 That's why the German laws.

00:28:50.000 And so that's the short version.

00:28:53.000 When we spoke before, I gave a much more technical, precise definition of Matthias' core thesis.

00:29:04.000 But once this happens, then people become very, very easily manipulated through propaganda and a variety of techniques that now I have a better comprehension of.

00:29:18.000 I mean, then I was still just trying to make sense, just like all of us, of what the heck was going on.

00:29:23.000 What's with this crazy?

00:29:26.000 But now it's kind of coalesced into an understanding of the fact that modern psychology has been weaponized.

00:29:39.000 It's been intentionally weaponized in the context of military activities in the domain that, you know, one way to express it, the term is used, the kind of term of art in military jargon is fifth generation warfare, or you could call it psychological warfare.

00:29:57.000 And what it distinguishes the present from, say, Sun Tzu and, you know, ancient propaganda has always been part of warfare in humans.

00:30:09.000 But we haven't had the digital world.

00:30:12.000 We haven't had modern psychology.

00:30:15.000 We haven't had nudge technology.

00:30:18.000 We haven't had all these tools that allow the control of information, thought, perception, feelings, emotions that have become commonplace.

00:30:32.000 And that, you know, is, and has, you know, this suite of technology and capabilities that we saw deployed in all of us were built in a kind of a structured way, largely by UK and U.S. leadership in the intelligence community as a weapon of war to counter these successful insurgencies that we keep losing wars over, you know,

00:31:02.000 Vietnam being a notable example all the way through Afghanistan.

00:31:06.000 And so that's why it was built.

00:31:12.000 But then that tech got deployed by governments against their own citizens.

00:31:20.000 And this was really launched in large part in the United States by a presidential directive from Barack Obama.

00:31:29.000 I'm not making this up.

00:31:31.000 You can look it up.

00:31:32.000 And by the way, the presidential directive is still in place that established the nudge technology units of the United States.

00:31:40.000 They were already operating in the UK.

00:31:42.000 And in the UK, it's quite advanced.

00:31:44.000 When you look at UK politics right now and what's going on there with all the censorship and everything, you know, this is no joke.

00:31:51.000 We're barreling right to that endpoint, same as Canada has. 0.50

00:31:56.000 You know, we're just a little bit behind.

00:31:59.000 And there, you know, we have the benefit of the First Amendment and a Constitution.

00:32:06.000 And, you know, often on courts.

00:32:09.000 But there, they don't have those obstacles.

00:32:13.000 And the government believes in the UK that once they have won an election, it's perfectly acceptable to deploy this modern psychology and information control technology on their own population.

00:32:27.000 And I argue that once that Rubicon is crossed, the idea of democracy, because the tech is so powerful, becomes completely perverted.

00:32:37.000 And we got a good hard taste of that during COVID.

00:32:42.000 What you and I experienced, what you experienced with Ivermecton, what you experienced with just talking about your own experiences and the blowback that happened after we did that little hit is a super powerful,

00:33:03.000 clear case study in understanding this intersection of modern psychology, warfare technology, and the digital world and algorithmic control of information, the creation of digital avatars for all of us,

00:33:28.000 the application now in the present of artificial intelligence to custom craft messaging that gets fed into our digital domains on a regular basis in order to sell us whatever, but also to shape how we think and to control what information we get access to all the time.

00:33:57.000 Just to give an example, my wife, who does a lot of our research for our Substack, was talking to me the other day.

00:34:04.000 She just gave me a couple examples where stories that were in corporate media in the United States that weren't listing certain key names or whatever.

00:34:17.000 She said, I just go to the Hindustu Times.

00:34:20.000 Hindustu Times is a great source for all the stuff that we're not allowed to see here in the United States.

00:34:26.000 You're now in an environment, in an information environment, where you cannot rely on, but we all know that.

00:34:36.000 You can't rely on corporate media, but the rules, the boundaries that are being set up about information are profound and they're completely distorting our ability to process what's happening around us.

00:34:51.000 Can I give you the example of what actually happened?

00:34:54.000 You said in our example with the blowback in Spotify, this is documented by a report out from the House about COVID and what happened.

00:35:08.000 And that report only carries just through to the early part of the vaccines and then it stops.

00:35:14.000 For some reason, they didn't really want to go down the road to the vaccines.

00:35:18.000 They did talk a lot about the events around the, let's say, lab leak hypothesis, which is allowed.

00:35:28.000 You're allowed in D.C. now to talk about that.

00:35:30.000 Finally.

00:35:31.000 Yeah, you're still.

00:35:33.000 It was about four years later, you allowed.

00:35:35.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:37.000 So what was documented was that the trail of events was that we had our discussion.

00:35:48.000 That triggered, and this is going to sound bizarre, but this is what's documented.

00:35:54.000 That triggered Coca-Cola Corporation to complain to the Global Alliance for Responsible Media, which is created by the World Economic Forum.

00:36:04.000 It's one of these global aggregators that controls advertising.

00:36:09.000 The Global Alliance for Responsible Media, which, by the way, had a dust up with Elon Musk and lost, and they closed it down as a nonprofit.

00:36:18.000 It still exists in other ways, but as a structure that could be sued by X, it disappeared when he stood up against it.

00:36:29.000 But Global Alliance for Responsible Media had a socket with Google AdSense, by the way.

00:36:36.000 So they control the advertising ecosystem, which kind of matters to Spotify.

00:36:42.000 So Coca-Cola complains to Garm, saying, this guy, Rogan, you got to shut him down.

00:36:50.000 You got to put pressure on Spotify.

00:36:53.000 So Spotify gets the message from Garm that we're threatening to pull your advertising.

00:37:01.000 Now, what happens between that and your experience, I don't know.

00:37:06.000 It's not transparent to me what you experienced.

00:37:08.000 Yeah, we all remember the Laurel Canyon crowd saying they were going to pull their Cadillacs, which they didn't actually own, right?

00:37:17.000 That was another thing.

00:37:19.000 And then they went after you with this mashup of N-word historic events.

00:37:28.000 There was clearly a concerted effort to take out Joe Rogan, much more than to take out Robert Malone.

00:37:36.000 And so then the question comes: why the heck would Coca-Cola be the socket with the Global Alliance for Responsible, one of the biggest advertisers in the world, right?

00:37:47.000 Why would Coca-Cola give a hooey about what Jogen Rogan said to Robert Malone on New Year's Eve?

00:37:58.000 Coca-Cola is really tight with the CDC.

00:38:02.000 Coca-Cola has funded buildings at the CDC.

00:38:06.000 Coca-Cola funds the CDC Foundation, Foundation for the CDC, as does Bill and Melinda Gates, as done all the major vaccine manufacturers, et cetera, et cetera.

00:38:16.000 The appearance is, I can't verify this, that CDC acted through its ally, Coca-Cola.

00:38:25.000 Why are they allies?

00:38:26.000 What's Coca-Cola got to do with CDC?

00:38:29.000 The angle there is that Coca-Cola wanted the CDC to get WHO to not implement restrictions and messaging about sugar use.

00:38:42.000 Okay?

00:38:43.000 They didn't want those messages.

00:38:45.000 Remember, this is at the heart of the inverted food triangle now.

00:38:49.000 The old food triangle was the product of sugar lobby. 0.82

00:38:53.000 I mean, the sugar lobby is incredibly powerful because this stuff is addictive.

00:38:57.000 I mean, it's like having the cocaine lobby, right?

00:39:02.000 Well, and, you know, that's an interesting analogy because, of course, the history of Coca-Cola.

00:39:07.000 But, so sugar's addictive.

00:39:11.000 The CDC, Coca-Cola didn't want the CDC to influence public health policy to avoid global positions on the risks associated with sugar intake because it would potentially hurt their market share.

00:39:29.000 They're a major globalized company.

00:39:32.000 So that little ecosystem that I just described illustrates what we're dealing with here and the many ways that all of this kind of influence and messaging and signaling happens in this kind of integrated horizontally and vertically ecosystem that we live in right now.

00:39:54.000 And one of the things that came out of that, you'll recall, was that you were asked, as I recall, you gave this, you know, I've had a hostage video.

00:40:03.000 I think that was close to a hostage video from you back in the day when you were saying, this is what I'm going to do.

00:40:10.000 It was like out on your porch or something.

00:40:13.000 I remember, I was sitting around a campfire in Maui, quite literally, when somebody said, no, did you just see this from Rogan?

00:40:20.000 And a matter of fact, I was sitting around Gavin DeBecker's campfire at that time, somebody that you know.

00:40:26.000 And so the compromise was that there would be a little trailer put at the bottom of that episode.

00:40:34.000 And by the way, you probably know that episode for a long time became very hard to find.

00:40:40.000 It was basically blacklisted from the search engines, et cetera, et cetera.

00:40:44.000 But it carries, and I think it still does, that little banner that says, you know, you should go to the CDC if you want the true, true about COVID.

00:40:52.000 And you can still find those kinds of banners popping up all the time on YouTube.

00:40:59.000 If you talk about vaccines or COVID vaccines, that will get, if you pass the filters, if YouTube will allow that to still be up because you didn't say something, whatever it is, then you'll get the little banner.

00:41:13.000 That banner is pushed out by the nudge units at the CDC.

00:41:19.000 That is nudge technology.

00:41:21.000 It is all around us all the time, and it's basically still public policy consequent to the old Obama presidential directive that still hasn't been rescinded.

00:41:35.000 I love President Trump.

00:41:36.000 I think he's doing amazing things.

00:41:38.000 I think he's amazingly brave.

00:41:41.000 I just mentioned our friend Gavin DeBecker referred to Trump the other day when I saw Gavin in Maui as a once-in-500-year leader.

00:41:51.000 And that's not nothing coming from Gavin.

00:41:55.000 And so I'm a big supporter, but the president has still left in place this mechanism that exists that directs the federal government to use nudge technology and related what I assert is psychological warfare technology on the American populace.

00:42:15.000 This is from back in, what was it, 2015 or something like that?

00:42:21.000 Yeah, it's quite early.

00:42:23.000 And then you had his, you had Obama's subsequent, like the notorious speech at Hoover at Stanford, where he talks about in order to preserve democracy, we're going to have, basically, he says we're going to have to have censorship in order to preserve democracy or whatever democracy.

00:42:41.000 For people that don't know what we're talking about, we're relating to the Smith-Munt act.

00:42:44.000 The Smith-Munt, everybody focuses on Smith-Munt. 0.97

00:42:49.000 But as I examined Smith-Munt, and we did an essay on this in the Substack, you know, like three years ago, because that was the kind of the narrative that was coming out in, let's say, our side of alternative media.

00:43:03.000 And in my examination, Smith-Munt's impact is a lot more limited.

00:43:08.000 Has to do with Voice of America and some of those things.

00:43:11.000 The broad impact wasn't quite, in my opinion, what was believed to be of enabling propaganda domestically.

00:43:20.000 More specifically, there is a presidential directive that nudge technology, that established a nudge office that nudge technology shall be used.

00:43:33.000 They don't call it a nudge office, right?

00:43:35.000 I don't know.

00:43:36.000 They've gone through various iterations, and I'm sorry I don't have the latest version.

00:43:40.000 And it's kind of become decentralized.

00:43:42.000 It's called the Social and Behavioral Science Team.

00:43:45.000 Wikipedia says that that was stopped in 2017 but continued under the Trump administration under the General Services Administration's Office of Evaluation Design.

00:43:57.000 There we go.

00:43:59.000 Boy.

00:44:00.000 Yeah, and it's kind of become, it's been, like I said, it's been pushed out into a lot of the agencies.

00:44:06.000 They don't use that lexicon because then it's easy to find them.

00:44:10.000 And they use, there's other euphemisms they use to describe those kinds of activities, but it's become normalized.

00:44:10.000 Right.

00:44:17.000 The weaponization of propaganda has become normalized.

00:44:21.000 There's the worrying from overall behavioral interventions or nudges like the ones implemented by OES have been found to be effective.

00:44:29.000 In recent psychological science article, researchers identified several policy areas of interest.

00:44:34.000 Example, healthcare.

00:44:35.000 Here we go.

00:44:36.000 2015.

00:44:36.000 Is when it was implemented.

00:44:37.000 So 2015.

00:44:38.000 Executive Order.

00:44:39.000 President Obama signs an executive order requiring federal agencies to incorporate behavioral insights into their evaluation efforts.

00:44:47.000 That's a nice way of saying the use of propaganda on the American people.

00:44:51.000 Okay.

00:44:51.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:44:52.000 And so this has kind of become, thank you so much for pulling that up.

00:44:56.000 That's super helpful.

00:44:58.000 So this is, like I said, if I can illustrate, I was on a Great Britain News broadcast about four years ago at the time when they would, you know, there was a window time where they would have me on, but it was sketchy.

00:45:16.000 And GB News was the only one that would do it.

00:45:20.000 But the rules were then that if you were going to have somebody that was speaking against the government narrative, then you had to have somebody representing the government's interests in the same broadcast.

00:45:31.000 So that's implemented by, basically, the UK has an active censorship organization that controls news media.

00:45:40.000 And so I'm on with this guy, Great Britain News, Pinstripe, Bowtie, you know, it just reeks.

00:45:48.000 And I'm talking about psychological warfare and the 77th Brigade, which is part of the British Army, which is their psychological warfare unit.

00:45:59.000 It's very open that that's the case, as is the existence of a civilian branch that they set up and paid people to do social media in opposition of counter-narratives that the government didn't approve of.

00:46:19.000 I mean, now they just, under Starmer, they just censor you and send you to jail.

00:46:25.000 Cut out the middleman.

00:46:26.000 But back then they were still kind of buying civilians.

00:46:31.000 And so I'm talking about this.

00:46:33.000 And that's that, the guy says, yeah, but here in the UK, our belief is that if the government wins the election, they have the right to govern.

00:46:44.000 And that right to govern includes our ability to use this type of technology, and we believe that it's justified to do so.

00:46:52.000 And that, when that conversation happened, frankly, we hadn't launched the book yet, Cywar, which is our most recent publication.

00:47:03.000 And it just kind of all coalesced in my mind that, oh my God, what all these things, Matias' teaching about mass formation, what I saw, what I experienced with you, what I experienced with the concerted attacks of the media.

00:47:18.000 And then subsequently, it's been validated by this congressional report that talks about, for instance, the juror ticket system.

00:47:25.000 Jura tickets are what it's a system that all the software companies use to track glitches and complaints and stuff like that.

00:47:35.000 Well, the government had their own juror ticket system set up to log information about activities of persons that they wanted to have censored and suppressed.

00:47:48.000 And they would build these juror tickets with information.

00:47:51.000 And so one of the things that's out on the congressional report was that I actually had a juror ticket.

00:47:55.000 I was surprised that this is the case.

00:47:57.000 Orman, not surprised in retrospect.

00:48:00.000 And my personal sins were that I was listed as an anti-vaxxer and a conservative.

00:48:07.000 Even though you're a vaccinologist.

00:48:09.000 And a conservative.

00:48:10.000 That's interesting.

00:48:11.000 And a conservative.

00:48:12.000 Exactly right.

00:48:13.000 I mean, the stuff that's coming out.

00:48:15.000 That's wild.

00:48:16.000 It's fascinating to query things like Grok, even Grok, about certain subjects.

00:48:27.000 And you will find where they have algorithmically built firewalls. 0.80

00:48:34.000 And you can approach them and detect them because it will act dumb.

00:48:42.000 It'll lock up, seemingly. 0.83

00:48:45.000 It won't give you that answer.

00:48:47.000 Or it'll talk around the issue, et cetera, et cetera.

00:48:50.000 You can identify these things that have been built in algorithmically.

00:48:54.000 And of course, then we had all of the disclosures, the Zuckerberg, oh, I'm so sorry, apology tour that happened, remember, when basically he got outed by Congress, and the rest of the tech bros.

00:49:09.000 And of course, the thing that catalyzed all of that was that Elon decided to pony up a good chunk of change and buy Twitter.

00:49:18.000 Which I think is one of the most impactful decisions that any American citizen has ever made.

00:49:24.000 Amazing. 0.91

00:49:25.000 If he didn't do that, I think we would be really screwed. 0.51

00:49:29.000 How can you debate that?

00:49:31.000 How can you debate it when you look at the Twitter files and you find out how much the government was involved in censoring accurate information from legitimate professors, esteemed researchers, anybody who didn't go along with the official narrative?

00:49:43.000 It's all coming out now in spades.

00:49:47.000 And we're dealing – now the lovely thing about all of this.

00:49:51.000 I mean let's try to – it is morning in America in my opinion.

00:49:56.000 I mean a lot of people get very dark and there's a darkness to the times.

00:50:02.000 But there's – not to push the metaphor too far but there is new light coming in and the fact that we can now see this and we recognize that – you and I are of a similar generation.

00:50:19.000 I mean one of my earliest memories was the assassination of the president.

00:50:23.000 And all of the propaganda around that, the propaganda around Vietnam War, ever since, we've just been swimming in information control that's gotten increasingly sophisticated.

00:50:35.000 And fortunately as Americans, we also kind of have become more and more immune to marketing and propaganda over time because we've been living with it, trying to discern what is real and what is false.

00:50:51.000 Again, this is – it's a core part of what you do for a living I think is just try to have conversations to be able to get to the bottom of the bullshit.

00:51:03.000 But that – we've been swimming in it and now we can see it.

00:51:08.000 We can see the structures, you know, the power of artificial intelligence and influence mapping and all the things that are going on in the internet right now that are the cutting-edge technology.

00:51:23.000 They're scary because they can be weaponized against us but they're also super cool because we can now see those relationships.

00:51:32.000 If you want an example of that, look at the threads that are coming out on X, illuminating the networks of affiliation associated with this latest Epstein file release.

00:51:46.000 Just mind-blowing.

00:51:47.000 Mind-blowing. 0.53

00:51:48.000 And it is just like, you know, we can sit here and bitch and whine saying, oh, they didn't release that, blah, blah, blah. 0.62

00:51:56.000 This is redacted.

00:51:58.000 All that's true.

00:51:59.000 But still the impact of that information, we're still getting to the bottom of it.

00:52:09.000 It's completely changed most people's narrative of what happened.

00:52:12.000 Like we had this sort of vague understanding, you know, but when you see in the email like clear evidence that they're talking about children.

00:52:23.000 In pretty obscene ways.

00:52:25.000 Horrifying ways.

00:52:26.000 So that was the thing that like even when I talked to Mike Benz about that, he was sort of incredulous about that.

00:52:31.000 It's like I don't think they would use children.

00:52:34.000 It just doesn't make any sense if they got caught.

00:52:36.000 But it just seems like we were – If Mike Benz was incredulous, that's pretty big.

00:52:43.000 Well, I just don't think we really knew until we saw those files come out.

00:52:48.000 And then you go, oh, well, there's no denying it now.

00:52:51.000 My position on it has completely shifted.

00:52:53.000 I thought there's probably some really sick people that have an appetite for that.

00:52:58.000 But I hadn't seen any real evidence for it until these files.

00:53:01.000 And now I'm like, oh, this is demonic.

00:53:03.000 This is clearly demonic.

00:53:06.000 OK.

00:53:06.000 So thank you for saying that.

00:53:10.000 I'm somebody who was raised a Christian and went to Bible school and that kind of stuff as a kid and youth groups and then growing up in central coast of California, let's say, veered in different ways.

00:53:28.000 But the experiences that we've encountered over the last half a dozen years, it's hard to come up with a language to express what we're observing in the world other than the language of theology.

00:53:46.000 Well, demonic by action.

00:53:48.000 So whether or not demons exist, if they did exist, that is how they would behave.

00:53:53.000 They would prey on children and torture children.

00:53:56.000 And there was the one where there was a suggestion where a child was praying to Jesus that like there was a joke that someone should dress up like Jesus.

00:54:07.000 Do you see that one, Jamie?

00:54:09.000 I'm not watching this stuff.

00:54:11.000 I don't even want to.

00:54:12.000 I don't even want to.

00:54:13.000 People send it to me and I go, OK, because I'm for the most part off social media.

00:54:18.000 But every now and then someone will send me something that I have to look at.

00:54:21.000 I'm like, oh, my God.

00:54:22.000 Yeah.

00:54:23.000 And these are these are emails back and forth.

00:54:26.000 There's one of them where Epstein says, I enjoyed the torture video.

00:54:31.000 There's these references to pizza, a lot of references to pizza that are 100 percent some kind of a code.

00:54:39.000 Yeah.

00:54:40.000 And then it brings you back to Pizzagate.

00:54:42.000 Yeah.

00:54:42.000 And which was widely dismissed.

00:54:45.000 You know, everybody's like, oh, this is a bunch of kooks.

00:54:48.000 Here it is.

00:54:50.000 She said she felt God's presence next to her when she was in bed.

00:54:54.000 She knows that Jesus watches over her and he helps her save.

00:54:58.000 He helped save her life.

00:55:00.000 And then he writes, whoops.

00:55:02.000 And then in response, Jeffrey Epstein says, you should dress up as him when you see her.

00:55:10.000 It is.

00:55:12.000 It is dark.

00:55:14.000 You should dress up like Jesus when you see her. 1.00

00:55:17.000 What the fuck? 1.00

00:55:20.000 And well, look at the line. 1.00

00:55:22.000 You're talking about a little kid.

00:55:23.000 Look at the line.

00:55:24.000 Look at the line above it.

00:55:26.000 How am I supposed to interpret?

00:55:29.000 The O-H Jesus I'm coming trick. 0.97

00:55:29.000 I'm coming trick. 0.97

00:55:38.000 It's just the whole thing.

00:55:40.000 But so so we see this darkness.

00:55:43.000 It involves leaders in academe, in science, in industry, in politics.

00:55:53.000 And it just, you know, I remember a point in this arc of the last six years where a film crew came on to my farm and wanted to shoot some segments.

00:56:07.000 And they were talking this, and frankly, I thought it was crazy talk.

00:56:11.000 I kind of smiled and, you know, tried to be civil and nice, not contradict them, about the new world order.

00:56:27.000 And then along comes, you know, then my wife one day says, hey, you ought to look at this book from Klaus Schwab.

00:56:36.000 It's called The New World Order.

00:56:40.000 I mean, he was just saying it out loud.

00:56:44.000 I mean, the World Economic Forum had those ads where they were saying, you will own nothing and you'll be happy.

00:56:44.000 Yeah.

00:56:51.000 Yeah.

00:56:52.000 And it goes back to the current king of England was the guy that kind of launched that.

00:56:57.000 He was the first one to be really talking about that you can use your favorite AI and track it down yourself.

00:57:05.000 I prefer not to use Google these days to try to find stuff.

00:57:09.000 But we see vertical after vertical after vertical after vertical where information has been crafted and manipulated.

00:57:20.000 And the same tools of delegitimization, of promotion of these messages that you are a conspiracy theorist or that you are controlled opposition is another favorite one.

00:57:42.000 A lot of this was pioneered in the 60s by the FBI against the various protest movements and you can go back and track that.

00:57:49.000 The narrative of being a collaborator surreptitiously is called bad jacketing and it has its own language and protocols for how to do this to people, to divide movements.

00:58:11.000 We're in this – I mean in a way, it's kind of a glorious moment where we're having a huge amount of social pressures coming together in this moment in time that you and I happen to live in.

00:58:30.000 How fantastic is that?

00:58:32.000 To be at a – to be at a point in time where there is so much change, there's so much social interaction and pressure and competition between these different philosophies and we're swimming in it.

00:58:48.000 As somebody writes on a daily basis these essays on Substack because that's how I make my living now because I can't do what I used to do.

00:58:57.000 It's – you're a kid in a candy shop.

00:59:00.000 There's so much corruption.

00:59:02.000 There's so much falsehood being promoted.

00:59:06.000 There's so much of this manipulation of reality.

00:59:13.000 And so if you're in the business of trying to help people to make sense out of that, which is kind of what I do now for a living, it's – I wake up every morning.

00:59:24.000 People – I get the feedback.

00:59:25.000 How do you come up with all these ideas?

00:59:27.000 I'm like, how do you not?

00:59:29.000 All you got to do is keep your eyes open.

00:59:31.000 Yeah, it's not hard to search anymore.

00:59:33.000 So you talked about ivermectin.

00:59:35.000 I mean the ivermectin story is still ongoing.

00:59:39.000 There was an announcement the other day from HHS that they are launching new initiatives to investigate the use of ivermectin in cancer.

00:59:48.000 And there was immediate blowback along the lines of oncologists are outraged.

00:59:55.000 You know, the narrative is Bobby – you know, not saying this explicitly but basically Bobby Kennedy is at it once again promoting falsehoods and conspiracy theories.

01:00:05.000 And it's going to – you know, we're all going to die because scientists are going to investigate the use of ivermectin and other drugs for cancer.

01:00:15.000 So this is the core question and this is one of the things that puzzled me to no end.

01:00:20.000 I understood that they were upset that I had gotten better without the use of the vaccine, that I was a popular person, that I was a famous person and I made a video about a canceled show.

01:00:35.000 Dave Chappelle and I were supposed to do a show and I made that video to let everyone know that I couldn't do the show because I got COVID.

01:00:42.000 I had no idea it was going to be even controversial.

01:00:47.000 But I listed a bunch of things that I took. 1.00

01:00:50.000 And the shit hit the fan. 0.99

01:00:51.000 I talked about IV vitamins. 1.00

01:00:53.000 I talked about monoclonal antibodies.

01:00:53.000 Yeah.

01:00:56.000 I talked about – Which were allowed.

01:00:58.000 Prednisone.

01:00:59.000 Yeah, all these things that I talked about.

01:01:01.000 I talked about all these different things that I took.

01:01:01.000 Z-Pak.

01:01:04.000 There was no mention of any of those things.

01:01:06.000 There was only ivermectin.

01:01:08.000 And that's what really puzzled me.

01:01:10.000 I was like, this is fascinating.

01:01:12.000 Because I listed a bunch of different things.

01:01:15.000 But there was no demonization of monoclonal antibodies.

01:01:18.000 But they did make them much harder to get and eventually pulled them.

01:01:22.000 I have a friend and his friend was in the hospital.

01:01:27.000 And they wouldn't administer monoclonal antibodies once he got into the hospital.

01:01:32.000 They wouldn't allow him to have them.

01:01:34.000 What went on in the hospital is a whole other thing.

01:01:36.000 But that's crazy.

01:01:37.000 So the why.

01:01:40.000 The why that one medication.

01:01:42.000 The only two threads that I can pull on at all is that ivermectin is a miracle drug.

01:01:51.000 I mean Nobel Prize, right?

01:01:52.000 Right.

01:01:53.000 We don't understand completely how it works.

01:01:56.000 In this case, it doesn't seem to be working as an antiviral.

01:01:59.000 It seems to be working as an immune stimulant, pro-inflammatory or pro-immune response in some way that's subtle.

01:02:09.000 Because it has this broad spectrum of activity against things that have an immune response component in controlling.

01:02:16.000 But it's off patent.

01:02:18.000 Right.

01:02:18.000 They don't understand it.

01:02:19.000 It's off patent.

01:02:20.000 And the response is as if it represents a significant threat to some business interests.

01:02:30.000 It's hard to discern that.

01:02:31.000 And you mentioned Z-Pak. 0.97

01:02:33.000 So that's another fascinating one.

01:02:36.000 And to say that it was only ivermectin.

01:02:38.000 Ivermectin was the most prominent.

01:02:39.000 But they were actually effective in shutting down the Z-Pak, the use of hydroxychloroquine. 0.69

01:02:48.000 And hydroxychloroquine has a fascinating story.

01:02:51.000 When you mention Z-Pak, you're talking about Zev Zelenko. 1.00

01:02:54.000 And Zev was the one that wrote the letter to the president saying, hey, here's this data and this information about this drug that is off patent.

01:03:06.000 We have a huge portfolio of experience in using it.

01:03:13.000 Millions and millions of doses.

01:03:14.000 It's safe in pregnancy. 0.83

01:03:17.000 What's not to like here?

01:03:19.000 And the story of that is a fascinating microcosm.

01:03:23.000 Because it goes back to Ralph Baric.

01:03:26.000 Ralph Baric had published that back years ago when he's kind of the guru of coronaviruses.

01:03:34.000 And a good case can be made that he had his fingers all over the engineering of this particular virus.

01:03:41.000 So he had published that this drug was effective against coronaviruses.

01:03:48.000 And Zev Zelenko, who's passed away now, got engaged in trying to find some way to help his patients in New York with recovering from COVID and treating COVID.

01:04:05.000 And he went back, did a deep dive into Baric's work, pulled out this drug, hydroxychloroquine that had been recommended, wrote to the president about it.

01:04:16.000 He got clinical experience with it.

01:04:19.000 And, you know, caveat, Mickey Willis is doing a bio on Zev now.

01:04:29.000 And I'm involved in that.

01:04:30.000 So conflict of interest.

01:04:32.000 But he was the one that pulled it out, sent the letter to the president with his clinical experience.

01:04:42.000 President tasked Peter Navarro with sourcing the drug.

01:04:47.000 And Peter, an economist, went to town.

01:04:50.000 I remember the company I was working with, Alchem at the time, getting a call from Peter.

01:04:55.000 Can you come up with some way to make more of this drug here domestically?

01:04:58.000 We want to source it so we have enough doses for everybody.

01:05:01.000 And then I think it was Lancet published this paper that had totally made up data that trashed the drug, said that it's toxic, doesn't work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:05:14.000 It was all fake.

01:05:16.000 OK.

01:05:17.000 They pulled the paper when it became revealed that it was based on nonexistent data, that it was more propaganda published in one of the top medical journals in the United States.

01:05:25.000 But by that time, it was completely crushed.

01:05:28.000 So they didn't have to go after Z-Stack.

01:05:31.000 They'd already killed Z-Stack. 0.99

01:05:34.000 Ivermectin, though, that was a new threat.

01:05:36.000 And one of the reasons why it was a threat was there was a meta-analysis that had been done at the Cochrane.

01:05:43.000 So the Cochrane Institute in the U.K. is like, you know, the holy grail for analysis of drugs and biologics and this process of meta-analysis.

01:05:58.000 They kind of wrote the rules for how to do it.

01:06:01.000 And they had done an analysis that showed that ivermectin was quite effective.

01:06:06.000 And then something happened and there was some influence exerted.

01:06:15.000 And suddenly that meta-analysis got quenched.

01:06:20.000 It got squashed.

01:06:22.000 There were two investigators that were involved in building that.

01:06:29.000 One kind of went underground and got a big grant and carried on as an academic.

01:06:34.000 The other one got so pissed off that she created this organization called the World Council for Health. 0.98

01:06:41.000 That's Tess Lurie.

01:06:42.000 And she really objected to what happened.

01:06:46.000 But ivermectin, you know, there was a signal there.

01:06:49.000 There was a clear signal there.

01:06:51.000 There was data supporting that signal.

01:06:53.000 And then something happened to cause that meta-analysis to be restructured.

01:07:00.000 And certain studies that were showing how effective it was to be thrown out.

01:07:04.000 And then the suppression of the data coming out of India.

01:07:08.000 You remember that?

01:07:10.000 And Uttar Pradesh.

01:07:10.000 Uttar Pradesh.

01:07:13.000 And I guess it had kind of – it's like the cat was out of the bag.

01:07:18.000 And they had trouble putting it back in.

01:07:21.000 So they just – my sense is they turned up the amplitude on the propaganda and the censorship in order to try to overcome this.

01:07:32.000 And I'm pretty sure – remember, who was it that held the original patent?

01:07:38.000 Merck.

01:07:39.000 Now, I was involved as an observer on behalf of DITRA to the active trials that were going on under the Foundation for NIH, which is sponsored in a significant way by Merck.

01:07:53.000 And which is now headed up by the former head of Merck Vaccines, Julie Gerberding.

01:07:58.000 Bobby can't get her out.

01:07:59.000 It's the rules.

01:08:01.000 And they were running these clinical trials, including the clinical trial that essentially by tweaking the dosing, et cetera, made it so that they came up with a result suggesting that ivermectin is not effective.

01:08:15.000 There was a whole lot of manipulation in the why part.

01:08:19.000 Still, the best explanation I've heard is that it had a lot to do with the risk that if there was an effective countermeasure,

01:08:32.000 then the utilization of the PrEP Act and the emergency countermeasures to process to enable fast-tracking of these vaccines using this new technology.

01:08:52.000 Would no longer be valid because those are the rules is if there's an existing countermeasure, then you can't implement those clauses.

01:09:03.000 So it's all about emergency use authorization.

01:09:05.000 It's the – I don't know that that's the case.

01:09:08.000 It is.

01:09:08.000 It's the only thing that makes sense when you see how much profit they made.

01:09:11.000 Which was enormous.

01:09:13.000 So it was effective.

01:09:13.000 Enormous.

01:09:14.000 And all that propaganda, regardless of how much exposed them and exposed their methods, they made hundreds of billions of dollars.

01:09:24.000 Well, and that – the ugliest part of all of this, I mean people – the big, big picture when I talk to people that are still kind of on the fence trying to make sense out of it.

01:09:38.000 You know, there's still a lot of those folks out there.

01:09:40.000 The thing that kind of gets into their brain is the greatest upward transfer of wealth in modern history occurred during COVID.

01:09:52.000 It wasn't just the vaccines.

01:09:55.000 It was the whole enterprise.

01:09:57.000 With the lockdowns.

01:09:59.000 Lockdowns, all the – what was done to small businesses, what was done to the economy, the stimulus packages, they're still digging out of all of that fraud.

01:10:11.000 It – you know, in retrospect, for average folks that are just trying to put food on the table and pay their rent, to look at in retrospect what was, you know, quite literally done to them.

01:10:31.000 The middle class was hollowed out in – like on hyperspeed. 0.97

01:10:36.000 This – so yeah, I'm still pissed off about this.

01:10:41.000 Well, you should be.

01:10:42.000 The thing is not enough people are and so many people let it go.

01:10:47.000 And part of the reason why not enough people are pissed off about it is because they took the vaccine and they want to justify their decision.

01:10:56.000 And you will talk to a lot of people that make this blanket claim the vaccine saved millions of lives and they'll just say that.

01:11:04.000 Yeah, because that's the propaganda along with safe and effective.

01:11:08.000 That was a promoted narrative and that was – by the way, the rationale given by the Nobel Prize Committee to award to Carrico and Weissman was that these products, which they had – the thesis is they had been playing the central role.

01:11:23.000 I think Peter Kolas is the one that should have got it.

01:11:23.000 I disagree.

01:11:25.000 If you're going to give it for – if you're going to give it for these vaccines, it was Peter Kolas and his team at UBC that really was the enabling tech.

01:11:33.000 But be that as it may, the decision is made and the committee said basically millions of lives have been saved and by giving this Nobel at this time, we are – we hope that it will promote more people to accept this product.

01:11:50.000 That was explicitly the logic given at the time and that reflects what was really a thrust vector.

01:11:59.000 Joe, I've – you know, it's – what a bizarre world since we met.

01:12:04.000 And so I've been sucked into – to call it the center-right of Europe is a little bit of a misnomer because they're all socialists as far as I'm concerned, Georgia Maloney and everybody else.

01:12:16.000 But, you know, compared to the far left, they're labeled as neo-Nazis.

01:12:21.000 But I've been traveling to Europe, interacting with these people.

01:12:25.000 You think it was bad for us.

01:12:28.000 The European Union and the UK and the Canada were an order of magnitude worse.

01:12:33.000 That we should be so grateful that we live in this country at this time and that we still have something like a functioning constitution with the First and Second Amendment. 0.83

01:12:47.000 Look at the poor suckers in Australia and New Zealand.

01:12:52.000 You know, remind yourself it could be a heck of a lot worse here and it has been a heck of a lot worse in Europe. 0.92

01:13:00.000 I've got buddies in Romania in the leading alternative party, you know, calling it center-right, let's say, but that, you know, recently – I think it was the vice president that came out and said specifically that that last election was stolen.

01:13:18.000 It was in Romania.

01:13:21.000 Georgescu, they tried to put in jail and the logic was that – I think it was TikTok supporting his campaign had been sponsored by the Russians.

01:13:29.000 It was the same game that they played against Trump of Russian collusion.

01:13:36.000 They played that same book in Romania successfully.

01:13:40.000 But in the European Union environment under the European Council, they don't – you know, they ain't got a constitution.

01:13:48.000 And they can just step right in and throw you in jail, inactivate your candidacy, do whatever if you represent a populist threat to the existing structure.

01:14:00.000 We talk about the deep state.

01:14:03.000 But it's – it doesn't – you know, yeah, it's a problem here.

01:14:07.000 But – and thank – Mike Benz, I defer to as a notable expert in that space.

01:14:14.000 But it's a lot worse in Europe and Australia and Canada and the UK.

01:14:20.000 And I think, you know, we're in a perilous time here in the United States where, you know, we have the midterm coming up.

01:14:32.000 But people like Bobby are making progress and these dissident physicians that have risked so many things – and I'm just one.

01:14:45.000 You know, people – I hear people saying, oh, Robert, Robert, they've been so mean to you.

01:14:50.000 I'm like, come on, guys.

01:14:51.000 You think they've been mean to me.

01:14:54.000 Then look at what they did to Bobby.

01:14:56.000 And then if – you know, and then look – I don't have a nick out of my ear.

01:15:01.000 You know, look at what they did to Trump.

01:15:04.000 What they did to me is just – I'm nobody compared to that.

01:15:09.000 And they're willing to deploy that kind of capability against me.

01:15:13.000 Think about what's really going on at the higher levels where the big games are being played.

01:15:19.000 And, you know, at least we can see it now.

01:15:24.000 At least we have – for those of us that have our eyes open, we have some ability to be aware.

01:15:31.000 But what I've spent the last two years mostly trying to convince people about – I hardly ever talk about RNA.

01:15:39.000 I sit – oh, Joe, I've got to give a caveat.

01:15:44.000 Forgive me.

01:15:46.000 The opinions I'm expressing here are my own and not those of the U.S. government, the CDC, or the ACIP.

01:15:53.000 There, I said it.

01:15:54.000 OK.

01:15:55.000 But, you know, we're in a moment where we're seeing this – how – the levers, the gears of how all this works.

01:16:06.000 Give you an example.

01:16:08.000 Tomorrow, Friday, February 13th, what could possibly go wrong?

01:16:15.000 Hopefully my plane flight out of here works OK.

01:16:18.000 And they don't have a drone attack or something, right?

01:16:22.000 So tomorrow there's a lawsuit filed on behalf of the American Academy of Pediatrics that seeks to shut down the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and the changes that Bobby has implemented there.

01:16:40.000 And force all of that to go back to the way things were when it was functionally controlled by the professional societies and particularly the American Academy of Pediatrics.

01:16:50.000 They – we talk about this, you know, propaganda and weaponization and lawfare and those things.

01:17:00.000 And we talk about it as if it only happened in the last administration.

01:17:05.000 It's still ongoing all the time.

01:17:09.000 And it is going to go big time if the House turns, which I think it probably will.

01:17:16.000 I mean there's a good chance that – they've already drawn up articles of impeachment against Secretary Kennedy.

01:17:23.000 They're talking about articles of impeachment against President Trump.

01:17:25.000 We're about to go into another two years of stagnation and, you know, functional – what do we call it?

01:17:35.000 We can't call it civil war.

01:17:38.000 You know, war by other means is where we're heading right now.

01:17:45.000 But at this moment, I'm seeing major movement.

01:17:52.000 You know, Kennedy is doing great stuff.

01:17:54.000 The president is doing great stuff.

01:17:57.000 We're seeing a transformation in America's global reach, totally restructuring global politics and on the health side, the Make America Healthy Again movement.

01:18:08.000 You know, there's some pushback against that and a heck of a lot of propaganda being deployed against it.

01:18:13.000 Well, it's this old quote that seems sort of abstract for most people most of the time but rings kind of true.

01:18:21.000 But you're finding it true more and more.

01:18:23.000 Money is the root of all evil.

01:18:27.000 Profound.

01:18:28.000 Simple but profound.

01:18:30.000 Yeah.

01:18:30.000 I mean this is – the COVID thing with ivermectin and alternative medications, off-label medications.

01:18:37.000 Why?

01:18:38.000 Money.

01:18:39.000 I think it also has to do with control.

01:18:43.000 Right.

01:18:44.000 I think there's – Which means money.

01:18:45.000 Fair enough.

01:18:46.000 Yeah.

01:18:46.000 More access to money.

01:18:47.000 It's money and power in my mind.

01:18:49.000 But power – they don't want power without money.

01:18:52.000 They want to benefit from that power.

01:18:55.000 I believe for the likes of Larry Fink and Bill Gates.

01:18:59.000 I mean they can't spend all that they have.

01:19:02.000 It's a marker.

01:19:03.000 It's like chips.

01:19:05.000 You're stacking up – Exactly.

01:19:07.000 Right.

01:19:08.000 They're scoring in a video game.

01:19:09.000 Yeah.

01:19:12.000 But also captured by their past actions and constantly trying to obfuscate from all the things that they have done in the past that could be – like if you just went into Bill Gates' stuff that he did in Africa.

01:19:24.000 Oh.

01:19:25.000 Giving children polio with the polio vaccine that was from the AP News.

01:19:30.000 Africa and India.

01:19:31.000 I mean he's kind of banned from India.

01:19:31.000 Yeah.

01:19:34.000 The – yeah.

01:19:36.000 So I don't get it.

01:19:37.000 I don't get where these people live.

01:19:40.000 I'm happy.

01:19:42.000 As far as I'm concerned, I could walk away from all this stuff.

01:19:46.000 It's just kind of a sense of obligation of what are you going to do when you're 66?

01:19:51.000 I have this opportunity to impact in a positive way on the world on my way out the door.

01:19:57.000 Who wouldn't take it?

01:19:59.000 Well, I guess a lot of people wouldn't.

01:20:00.000 But I don't have a need to have power.

01:20:03.000 I have – thank God for my Substack subscribers.

01:20:07.000 I have all that I need.

01:20:10.000 My wife is happy.

01:20:12.000 My horses are fed.

01:20:14.000 My farm is paid off.

01:20:16.000 It's – you know, it's – and I have the luxury of doing good works and that's enough.

01:20:23.000 I don't get this global power thrust and hunger.

01:20:30.000 That's not your thing.

01:20:30.000 Because that's not what you do.

01:20:32.000 But if you were a politician or you were some megalomaniacal billionaire sort of business character that just wants to dominate and was involved in a bunch of antitrust lawsuits in the past, that would be what you – Not that we're naming any names.

01:20:47.000 Not that we're naming any names.

01:20:49.000 It bribed off multimedia corporations to the tune of 300-plus million dollars so that they wouldn't write bad stories about him.

01:20:56.000 Or owns – functionally owns the World Health Organization.

01:21:00.000 Right. 0.99

01:21:01.000 And a giant chunk of American farmland was for a while trying to push that fake meat shit on everybody until that dropped off a cliff. 0.99

01:21:09.000 And – yeah. 0.97

01:21:10.000 So this – the business models aren't working out so good for the globalists, are they?

01:21:13.000 I think a lot of it is because of information that's available now.

01:21:16.000 Yeah.

01:21:17.000 And you can't control – like one of the things that did happen during COVID is these places like CNN, people stopped going to for information.

01:21:27.000 They don't believe them anymore. 0.99

01:21:29.000 There's just too much bullshit and no one got in trouble for spreading that bullshit. 0.99

01:21:33.000 There was no corrections, no redactions, no apologies. 0.99

01:21:38.000 Yeah.

01:21:38.000 And so – No acknowledgment.

01:21:40.000 People now more than ever in my lifetime mistrust mainstream media and polls show that.

01:21:47.000 Polls show that the trust of mainstream media is at an all-time low for good reason.

01:21:51.000 They did it to themselves.

01:21:52.000 They prostituted themselves out to the pharmaceutical drug companies.

01:21:55.000 They had to say what they had to say on television.

01:21:58.000 People knew what they were saying was incorrect.

01:22:00.000 And now no one trusts them.

01:22:03.000 So to this thread, about four years ago, I read a report from the Trusted News Initiative.

01:22:11.000 You remember the TNI?

01:22:12.000 Yeah.

01:22:13.000 It was launched by the BBC.

01:22:15.000 To counter Russian disinformation and then repurposed to counter vaccine disinformation.

01:22:15.000 Right.

01:22:22.000 And they – and I read this report about – I'd gone on your show.

01:22:27.000 So I was a little bit of a fan.

01:22:28.000 Forgive me.

01:22:30.000 And so I'm reading this report and they're talking about threats to the industry because TNI is basically another trade organization.

01:22:39.000 It's another guild.

01:22:40.000 It's a global major media guild.

01:22:44.000 And so they're doing this internal analysis and reporting and they're talking about the risk vectors that they face.

01:22:51.000 And they had a whole great big section on Joe Rogan.

01:22:55.000 Joe Rogan represents – that was their threat.

01:23:03.000 That was the major threat to their business model is you and what you represent.

01:23:09.000 You – as a metaphor for this new information economy.

01:23:14.000 And by God, they called it right.

01:23:17.000 It's – and when I – this – again, this has been part of my journey.

01:23:21.000 When I realized what I was experiencing and what it meant to come on your show and have that event occur, which, by the way, blew up my subscribers on Substack.

01:23:36.000 Thank you so much.

01:23:37.000 I still get a wave every year about – in the month following – so January, I get a big bump in revenue.

01:23:47.000 Well, it blew up our subscribers on Spotify too.

01:23:50.000 During the heat of it, we gained – in one month, we gained 2 million subscribers.

01:23:54.000 I had – I had this bizarre experience.

01:24:10.000 You know, I'm just an old gray-haired guy with a – with – you know, I'm about to have my 47th wedding anniversary.

01:24:15.000 Thank you.

01:24:15.000 Congratulations.

01:24:16.000 I'm proud of it.

01:24:19.000 I would have 20-year-olds come up in the street and fist bump me. 0.90

01:24:23.000 I'm like, what the hell? 0.97

01:24:27.000 Yeah.

01:24:28.000 Well, they don't have a representative.

01:24:30.000 I mean, they don't see anyone.

01:24:32.000 Yes, males.

01:24:32.000 All males.

01:24:33.000 Those males don't have anybody in mainstream news that represents anything that resembles them.

01:24:39.000 I mean, I know I'm much older than them, but I never went down this path of decay and weirdness that a lot of adult males go into corporate business and industry and they become something unrecognizable to these young men who have freedom in life and they're being suppressed and they're being told that they're toxic.

01:24:58.000 That was a singer right there. 1.00

01:25:00.000 Yeah.

01:25:01.000 Young men that have freedom in life.

01:25:03.000 Yeah.

01:25:03.000 And then they compromise themselves.

01:25:04.000 They don't want to be what their dad is.

01:25:07.000 They don't want to be what their uncle is.

01:25:09.000 They don't want to be these people that they work for. 1.00

01:25:11.000 They're like, what is this fucking bullshit life? 1.00

01:25:13.000 I don't want that. 1.00

01:25:14.000 I know I'm being lied to. 1.00

01:25:16.000 I know the news is full of shit. 1.00

01:25:17.000 And I know that this one guy who is also a cage fighting commentator and a comedian and doesn't have to lie. 1.00

01:25:28.000 Like I'm not being I don't have a boss, really.

01:25:31.000 I mean, Spotify promotes the show.

01:25:34.000 We're in partnership with them.

01:25:34.000 They put the show out.

01:25:36.000 But there's no one telling me what to do, which is why you're here right now, because there's no one.

01:25:42.000 I don't have a conversation with no one.

01:25:44.000 I literally like reach out to my guy and say, hey, contact Mr. Malone and let's get him back on.

01:25:53.000 All I know is I got a message through X saying, Joe Rogan, do you want to come on?

01:26:01.000 That was actually me.

01:26:03.000 That message is me, which I rarely use those things.

01:26:05.000 But I was trying to figure out how to contact you.

01:26:07.000 So I reached out to you there and then I sent it to my guy and he takes care of it.

01:26:11.000 Like that's it.

01:26:12.000 There's no one else.

01:26:13.000 There's no one involved in all that, which you could still be you that way.

01:26:18.000 As soon as you get involved in enormous groups of humans and a board, you have to sit down at a table with other executives.

01:26:27.000 You have to make decisions based on the profitability of the company and shareholders and stuff.

01:26:33.000 I have none of that.

01:26:35.000 It's a skeleton crew.

01:26:36.000 So as I look back, you know, the question, why were you able to do this, Malone?

01:26:44.000 Why were you able to, you know, oh, you were so brave, Dr. Malone.

01:26:49.000 Well, Robert Malone, that name became like a pejorative.

01:26:53.000 It became like, oh, yeah, that Malone guy.

01:26:56.000 Yeah, it's all weaponized.

01:26:57.000 But then on the other side, I tour.

01:26:57.000 Yeah.

01:27:00.000 I do these rallies and stuff like this.

01:27:02.000 And, you know, it really makes my wife nervous. 0.65

01:27:10.000 Middle-aged women come up to me and they want to have selfies. 1.00

01:27:14.000 And I get this, oh, Dr. Malone, you were so brave.

01:27:17.000 You're such a hero kind of stuff, which I frankly find a little embarrassing.

01:27:21.000 I mean, it's sweet.

01:27:23.000 But, yeah, there's a lot of heroes.

01:27:25.000 Really heroes.

01:27:26.000 Why was that?

01:27:27.000 Yeah.

01:27:28.000 Yeah.

01:27:28.000 The guys that, you know, defend the nation.

01:27:32.000 Right.

01:27:34.000 But why was I able to speak?

01:27:36.000 I think a big part of it was I had no debt.

01:27:40.000 I wasn't beholden to anybody.

01:27:42.000 And like you say, I'd been about a decade being a consultant, a free-living consultant.

01:27:48.000 And it had gotten under my skin.

01:27:49.000 I've always been independent, you know, farmer, carpenter kind of stuff.

01:27:55.000 And that's, I guess, been part of my problem is I just don't fit in in corporate life.

01:28:03.000 I can't suck up to people and it's just not in me.

01:28:06.000 Well, it's a very unhealthy environment for anybody to get sucked into that bizarre groupthink.

01:28:12.000 It's just a good word.

01:28:15.000 It's what it is, right?

01:28:16.000 So this decentralized subscriber-based model, the epiphany was – and I'm being quite sincere.

01:28:16.000 Yeah.

01:28:29.000 You know, it was one of those moments my wife and I looked at each other and we said, what the hell are we going to do now?

01:28:34.000 Our consulting business is shot.

01:28:36.000 Nobody wants to talk to me.

01:28:37.000 I've been delegitimized.

01:28:38.000 As they say, I don't know what I know.

01:28:40.000 I haven't done what I've done.

01:28:42.000 And this has been promoted by all the top liberal publications in the world.

01:28:47.000 And so I said, OK, Rogan built this thing day after day, week after week for years.

01:28:58.000 He just stayed on it and doing it and we can do that too.

01:29:02.000 We can bring that kind of work ethic into our world.

01:29:06.000 Steve Kirsch had told me you ought to get on Spotify and we went – we took it on seriously.

01:29:12.000 We've published thousands of essays now almost every day.

01:29:16.000 It's, you know – You mean Substack. 0.85

01:29:18.000 What did I say?

01:29:18.000 Substack.

01:29:19.000 Substack.

01:29:20.000 I apologize.

01:29:22.000 And so we just work at it again and again and again trying to put out content.

01:29:27.000 And we're shadow banned and small roomed on X in a serious way.

01:29:34.000 You know, we got 1.3 million subscribers of which, you know, all the time I get feedback.

01:29:40.000 I never see your stuff.

01:29:42.000 Well, it's algorithmic.

01:29:43.000 Whatever it is.

01:29:44.000 You know, and you can ask Grok about Robert Malone and, you know, you get back – you know, I'm a controversial figure.

01:29:55.000 But, you know, not whining.

01:29:59.000 And so we have a lot of subscribers but we just have this core paid subscribers and they send in their five bucks a month and it's all we need and it totally sets us free.

01:30:14.000 We can talk about whatever we want and yeah, now that I'm a pseudo-government employee, I'm a special government employee without pay.

01:30:23.000 Boy, that's like the worst of both worlds because there's – I have – the truth is I have guardrails that constrain me in a way that I didn't used to be constrained for talking about some things.

01:30:39.000 You know, I have to live in this world.

01:30:43.000 I interface with the secretary and with the deputy chief of staff and other people and now I'm working with the State Department more.

01:30:52.000 And so, you know, I have to – I have to be more mindful.

01:30:58.000 Trevor Burrus What is your function?

01:30:59.000 Like what do you do over there?

01:31:01.000 At state or – Trevor Burrus Yeah, both.

01:31:03.000 When you're working for the government, like how do they use your services?

01:31:08.000 So the special government employee category is a designation from the executive branch.

01:31:15.000 It's the one that Elon had.

01:31:17.000 I like to say I'm in the same category as Elon was, only without all the money.

01:31:22.000 So he was an SGE without pay.

01:31:25.000 I'm an SGE without pay.

01:31:28.000 And because I serve on the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of the CDC, which is this – they call it – it's a FACA committee, Federal Advisory Committee Act, that advises the director of the CDC – that's its only job – on vaccine policy, OK?

01:31:45.000 So I'm the vice chair, which is largely honorary.

01:31:48.000 What that means is that if the chair isn't there, I draw the short straw and I have to chair those bloody meetings, like the last one for hepatitis B, birth dose, which was just a slugfest, ugly.

01:32:02.000 The worst meeting I've ever had to adjudicate in my entire life.

01:32:07.000 But for the most part, I sit on these subcommittees.

01:32:11.000 I sit on the COVID working group subcommittee.

01:32:14.000 I'm not supposed to talk about the next meeting.

01:32:16.000 I was told two days ago.

01:32:20.000 So that's one of my guardrails.

01:32:25.000 But stay tuned for what is going to come down if the AAP lawsuit doesn't prevail and we're allowed to actually have the meeting.

01:32:34.000 But – so that's that.

01:32:36.000 I'm also the chair of the Influenza Working Group.

01:32:39.000 Stay tuned for that.

01:32:41.000 And now I am – so – and I – from time to time, the secretary asks me to help him sort out some issue.

01:32:50.000 I'll get a phone call.

01:32:52.000 I once got a phone call on the Big Island.

01:32:56.000 I did this recent series of rallies to try to – to recap the whole reason why that we did that first hit was to try to publicize the Stop the Mandates rally in D.C.

01:33:10.000 That was the subtext for that, as you'll recall.

01:33:14.000 And I forgot to even mention it.

01:33:15.000 We had to go back in to do another shoot for that.

01:33:18.000 Remember?

01:33:18.000 I'm still fighting that same battle of trying to stop these mandated vaccines.

01:33:23.000 So I'm sitting there in Hawaii.

01:33:25.000 I'm going to another one of these rallies.

01:33:27.000 I get a call out of the blue from one of Bobby's people.

01:33:29.000 And they want some advice about a topic having to do with the decision he has to make about spending money on another biodefense initiative.

01:33:40.000 So I get that kind of stuff.

01:33:42.000 He called me soon after he was confirmed to get my opinion about what was going on in the chicken industry and all the slaughter that was happening for bird flu.

01:33:53.000 And I told him this doesn't make sense.

01:33:55.000 It's not good policy.

01:33:56.000 There's no way you can get rid of bird flu doing this.

01:33:58.000 It's in the wild bird populations.

01:34:00.000 And this is just nonsensical what they're doing.

01:34:03.000 Why do you think they did that?

01:34:06.000 So that's interesting that now we drive into a kind of public health and vaccinology.

01:34:06.000 OK.

01:34:16.000 You're asking the why.

01:34:17.000 And it's been a longstanding policy.

01:34:20.000 They killed millions of chickens, right?

01:34:21.000 They do it every time.

01:34:22.000 Every time there's a bird flu.

01:34:24.000 Yeah, it's in any other outbreak.

01:34:27.000 So right now in Spain, I just wrote an essay about this.

01:34:30.000 It was maybe the biggest reveal on what's going on in Spain right now.

01:34:34.000 There's a Spanish research lab that's been collaborating with the USDA that is investigating swine fever virus.

01:34:43.000 And they're actually doing gain-of-function research on swine fever virus.

01:34:46.000 Swine fever virus, African swine fever virus, kills pigs like crazy.

01:34:52.000 And already China has locked down and will not accept Spanish pork.

01:34:57.000 And it is a lab leak.

01:35:00.000 And there was a bunch of dead hogs last November around this facility. 1.00

01:35:05.000 And now it's the Spanish and the European Union are blowing a circuit over this because it's really compromised the Spanish pork industry. 0.99

01:35:18.000 So this kind of stuff, when this happens, the reaction is we just have to kill all of them. 1.00

01:35:27.000 We have to kill all the potential carriers. 0.99

01:35:30.000 And this has been the wisdom, quote, in this kind of agrarian animal husbandry world for a long time in the context in particular of factory farming.

01:35:48.000 So the logic is that if you were to vaccinate these birds with a leaky vaccine, which COVID was a leaky vaccine, influenza is a leaky vaccine.

01:36:01.000 If you give the birds a leaky vaccine, what you'll get out of that is precisely vaccine-resistant flu.

01:36:08.000 And so we have no choice, has been the logic, but to exterminate – like the ostriches in Canada, remember that story? 1.00

01:36:18.000 That was shocking.

01:36:19.000 There was no logic behind that.

01:36:22.000 It's gone.

01:36:23.000 It's become entrenched as policy, as kind of this reflexive knee-jerk thing that if we have an outbreak, what we do is we kill because we can't control the virus.

01:36:33.000 And the things that we could do to control the virus aren't really going to control it and it's actually going to make things worse.

01:36:39.000 Is there any logic to that?

01:36:43.000 We can argue with the margins.

01:36:45.000 We can argue with the margins.

01:36:46.000 But when you got something that – if you had something that didn't have a natural reservoir, then you can make the case that you could eliminate it in that geographic population and keep it from spreading outside.

01:37:03.000 But when you have a natural reservoir like – Explain that.

01:37:07.000 Explain the natural reservoir.

01:37:08.000 OK.

01:37:09.000 In the case of avian influenza, waterfowl and migratory birds are amazing vectors for carrying and propagating influenza.

01:37:24.000 And influenza survives in water for a very long period of time.

01:37:28.000 And so you've got ducks and geese traveling north to south all over every continent that are susceptible to infection by avian influenza and all the other migratory birds.

01:37:44.000 But in particular, the waterfowl, galiforms.

01:37:48.000 My wife would wrap me on the head if I didn't use the right term. 1.00

01:37:53.000 So she's an avian specialist.

01:37:55.000 So these birds carry the flu and a number of them are relatively resistant.

01:38:04.000 They've been subjected to avian influenza for centuries or millennia.

01:38:10.000 And sometimes you'll get a variant come out that will wipe out a whole bunch of birds.

01:38:16.000 West Nile virus in crows is a great example.

01:38:19.000 And now you have crow populations coming back that are resistant to West Nile.

01:38:23.000 We haven't gotten rid of West Nile.

01:38:25.000 We've just bred more resistant birds.

01:38:28.000 That's kind of – that's Brett Weinstein's space, right?

01:38:30.000 That's evolution.

01:38:32.000 It's magical.

01:38:33.000 And so if you have a natural animal reservoir like the ticks and lime and deer, what are you going to do?

01:38:48.000 Exterminate all the deer?

01:38:50.000 No, that's not practical.

01:38:51.000 Well, Mao tried to exterminate the birds because of the thesis that they were eating up all the spare grain and compromising availability of food to the populace, right?

01:39:04.000 And what happened?

01:39:06.000 Major ecological catastrophe.

01:39:08.000 You can't eliminate the birds.

01:39:10.000 You can't go and kill all the waterfowl.

01:39:14.000 That would just be ecologically insane.

01:39:18.000 But, you know, sometimes we do insane things.

01:39:21.000 And in the case of avian influenza, it's there.

01:39:25.000 It's endemic.

01:39:26.000 It's in all that migratory waterfowl.

01:39:28.000 They poop an amazing amount of influenza.

01:39:31.000 It gets in the water supply.

01:39:32.000 The water supply goes everywhere.

01:39:35.000 They – you know, small birds are interacting with – I don't know if you've ever been around a chicken barn or turkey barns.

01:39:41.000 OK.

01:39:41.000 Yeah, there's chickens and then there's commercial chicken production, right?

01:39:46.000 So these operations are like petri dishes for bad stuff happening.

01:39:51.000 And the only way you can interfere with that – and by the way, the Amish are starting to do it – is put something in the water supply. 0.72

01:39:58.000 And what the Amish are using is a compound called hypochlorous acid and it's stopping these things and it's stopping the E. coli and a lot of other stuff.

01:40:08.000 But the U.S. – that's another problem is, you know, when you have these – the momentum of these large government agencies with their consensus about the way things are done.

01:40:22.000 You know, there's a saying that the only time the FDA ever changes is if somebody in a key position retires or passes away.

01:40:32.000 They kind of get entrenched in this is how we do things.

01:40:37.000 We kill chickens.

01:40:38.000 If we have avian influenza come out, we kill chicken barns.

01:40:41.000 And this is the beauty of Secretary Kennedy coming in, being kind of not invested in the way things are and the way we do things and being willing to ask the questions, does this really make sense?

01:40:59.000 And that has been heresy.

01:41:01.000 It obviously is still heresy to do that, to ask those questions, to, you know, have the president say we need to restructure the vaccine schedule.

01:41:10.000 Oh, my God.

01:41:12.000 The sky is falling.

01:41:13.000 Kids are going to die left and right.

01:41:15.000 There's going to be death on the street because we ended the thimerosal in multidose influenza vials.

01:41:22.000 This kind of catastrophic thinking.

01:41:25.000 But Kennedy has – and the president have the courage to question these narratives, these long-held standing beliefs.

01:41:33.000 And in the case of the bird flu, you know, he called me up.

01:41:37.000 I said, Bobby, I don't think this makes sense.

01:41:39.000 I think that what we really need to do is we need to breed resistant chickens.

01:41:42.000 And the way we breed resistant chickens – and by the way, we've written about this also in our sub-stack.

01:41:47.000 There are in the domain of chicken cultivars – you have chickens.

01:41:55.000 You know, there are people that are just freaks about chickens.

01:41:59.000 And all of these – but because of that, we have this huge repository of different cultivars of chickens.

01:42:07.000 You know, we could say they were all generated through gain-of-function research, the old school way.

01:42:13.000 And a number of those are relatively resistant to bird flu.

01:42:16.000 Well, in a logical world, you would have Tysons – you know, maybe the government has to incentivize this. 1.00

01:42:23.000 It shouldn't have to.

01:42:24.000 You would have Tysons in there saying, well, guys, what we need is a bird flu-resistant chicken.

01:42:31.000 Let's get on it.

01:42:32.000 And that is essentially the position that the secretary took is this policy of just extremely aggressive mass culling is not producing the outcome that we want.

01:42:46.000 It has never produced the outcome that we want.

01:42:48.000 It will never eliminate bird flu because it has an endemic reservoir.

01:42:53.000 And we've got to think different.

01:42:55.000 And now that's starting to percolate through the system and there is more research into alternative strategies including the possibility of various prophylactic interventions in feed and in water.

01:43:12.000 That's – you know, and a lot of these chicken houses mist.

01:43:15.000 As you recall, they have the misters because they've got to control the temperatures.

01:43:18.000 So they are set up with misters and that can also be a way to deliver things that are non-toxic like HOCL that can knock out these viruses and E. coli and other things that cause reduced growth and loss of weight in chickens, which is the metric that Tysons and those guys is food conversion.

01:43:43.000 That's the metric they all pray to.

01:43:46.000 You know, there's different – we can think differently and we have been locked into, you know, consensus that has emerged over decades based on old ways of thinking.

01:44:00.000 And the same people are in charge so they don't want to change.

01:44:04.000 And they kind of – often kind of have these lineages where they're passing power on to the people that they've mentored.

01:44:12.000 So that's my HHS world and then the State Department world is a new thing that's come in.

01:44:18.000 I have a – I'm starting to support the group under Secretary Rubio that's responsible for the various treaties having to do with arms containment and in particular the bioweapons convention.

01:44:37.000 So this morning I got up early and there was – so honest to God, I don't want to pump you up too much.

01:44:46.000 I mean you might get an ego or something.

01:44:48.000 But so I say to the state – they say, Robert, we want you to go to Geneva to give this talk on the use of AI for monitoring bioweapons threats because we have no way of monitoring compliance with the bioweapons convention right now.

01:45:04.000 And it's been a historic problem and the president has said that we're going to – we think that we can apply artificial intelligence to this problem set of monitoring and verifying compliance with the bioweapons convention, which is heresy.

01:45:21.000 It's another one of these thinking outside of the box things.

01:45:23.000 So they say, we want you to go to Geneva and give this talk and be the keynote.

01:45:29.000 And I say, and what's the date?

01:45:33.000 Oh, it's February 12th.

01:45:36.000 And I say, I don't talk about this because it's the general thing.

01:45:42.000 You don't tell people that you're going to be on Rogan.

01:45:44.000 You let Rogan say that when Rogan is ready.

01:45:48.000 And so I said, but I'm scheduled for Rogan that day.

01:45:52.000 And they're like, oh, Rogan.

01:45:54.000 Well, OK, absolutely.

01:45:55.000 You got to go on that one.

01:45:56.000 That's way more important than going and speaking at the UN.

01:46:00.000 So you're – the State Department thinks you're more important than me talking about bioweapons.

01:46:05.000 And they let me web exit.

01:46:08.000 So that's what happened this morning.

01:46:10.000 And it is – so I'm supporting that group now and maybe increasingly over time.

01:46:21.000 And I don't know where that goes. 0.96

01:46:22.000 So you were talking about these pigs that – it's a lab leak that's giving these pigs. 0.98

01:46:29.000 Yeah, in Spain.

01:46:30.000 And what – is it another gain-of-function laboratory where they're – So this is truly a breaking news thing.

01:46:38.000 Our media is not covering it.

01:46:43.000 It is being covered in Europe and particularly in Spain.

01:46:47.000 This is a major economic threat because they're, I think, the number two pork producer in the world.

01:46:54.000 And in the hogs, they're feeding on acorns, et cetera. 0.98

01:46:58.000 That's a big specialty market space.

01:47:02.000 So last November, this laboratory that is ostensibly working, this is – I mean, it's Wuhan 2.0.

01:47:12.000 Only the good news is that this is not swine flu.

01:47:19.000 People get that confused.

01:47:21.000 I'm not talking about swine flu.

01:47:22.000 This is African swine fever.

01:47:26.000 It's been around for millennia.

01:47:28.000 It's never crossed into humans.

01:47:30.000 It's a very different virus.

01:47:31.000 So just make sure we got that clear.

01:47:34.000 So this highly lethal African swine fever virus is a threat to the global pork industry.

01:47:46.000 And so this laboratory in Spain is cooperating with the USDA to try to develop a new vaccine for African swine fever.

01:47:58.000 And in doing so, our government once again was unaware that this even existed, there's a cooperative agreement between USDA and this laboratory to engage in – if you read, they don't call it gain-of-function research.

01:48:16.000 They call it building recombinant viruses and experimenting in different virus structures to allow them to better – build a better vaccine.

01:48:28.000 Exactly the same logic that was used in Wuhan, OK?

01:48:32.000 Now, then last November – so this is ongoing in this little laboratory.

01:48:39.000 And what this relates to, Joe, is the idea that is being promoted that for justice and equity and sharing, we need to enable there being distribution of highly infectious pathogens all over the world in separate laboratories so that we in the big bad West are not imposing and enabling our industries to prey on,

01:49:06.000 name your emerging economy, by taking biologic resources from them.

01:49:13.000 In other words, new viruses.

01:49:14.000 And using them to build stuff, we have to cooperate and they have to have access to these reagents.

01:49:20.000 So the logic right now that's in play and being promoted by the WHO is that we should have high pathogen repositories and research programs all over the world, decentralized in these emerging economy states.

01:49:36.000 Spain is not Germany.

01:49:39.000 But so there's a Spanish lab.

01:49:42.000 USDA is cooperating with them.

01:49:44.000 They're going to build an African swine fever virus vaccine.

01:49:47.000 They're doing gain-of-function research.

01:49:50.000 And then – and by the way, just like in Wuhan, there's some construction going on related to that.

01:49:58.000 And then suddenly – and it's an area that is very dense in wild hogs.

01:50:05.000 Now, somehow we got to get this through our brain, OK?

01:50:08.000 You don't put the facility in a place that's proximal to the thing that might get infected if you have a lab leak.

01:50:15.000 I mean that ought to be like rule number one stamped on everybody's brain.

01:50:19.000 You don't do it.

01:50:20.000 Like the Rocky Mountain labs make a lot of sense.

01:50:22.000 If you're going to be working with nasty stuff and you got to do it, put it somewhere obscure, not in Boston, right?

01:50:30.000 So they're doing it.

01:50:31.000 They're surrounded by dense wild hog population.

01:50:33.000 And suddenly last November, people detect there is wild hogs dead all over around this facility.

01:50:40.000 What could possibly have happened?

01:50:42.000 So they start investigating the police have been in, grabbed the records, grabbed the digital information, et cetera, because the entire Spanish pork industry is now compromised.

01:50:56.000 Their major client, China, has already pulled their trade barriers.

01:51:01.000 No more Spanish pork going into China.

01:51:04.000 I advocate that President Trump ought to drop the curtain right now because when I looked at the distribution of wild hogs, I mean, you've traveled enough. 0.52

01:51:13.000 You know how important wild feral hogs are in the economy in Italy.

01:51:21.000 The wild hogs are all over in Europe. 0.88

01:51:25.000 And this place in Catalonia is right near the French border.

01:51:29.000 I don't – and then like right on the other side, a couple hundred miles is Italy and the band of high-density wild hogs spreads like that up through the mountains and then down into Italy. 1.00

01:51:43.000 And I think that if I was sitting in the White House right now, I think to protect, you know, both for the president, core constituency is ag.

01:51:59.000 Voted for him, you know, three times.

01:52:04.000 And he's – he holds that near and dear.

01:52:08.000 And I think that it's good politics and it's good public health.

01:52:13.000 It's good health agricultural decision to raise the barriers now until we can see that Europe has resolved the risk associated with this.

01:52:26.000 How are they going to resolve that?

01:52:29.000 So once again – It's wild hogs.

01:52:32.000 This is not like it's anything that's contained.

01:52:34.000 And to your point, I don't know the answer.

01:52:37.000 I mean, right now what they're doing is they're using drones to try to find – you know how hard it is to hunt wild hogs.

01:52:45.000 Yeah.

01:52:46.000 They hunt them out of helicopters here in Texas.

01:52:48.000 And they still can't even present them.

01:52:48.000 Yeah.

01:52:50.000 Yeah.

01:52:51.000 And the hogs are winning. 1.00

01:52:53.000 It's like the emu wars in Australia, right?

01:52:56.000 My friend Monty Franklin is from Australia.

01:52:58.000 Actually has a joke about that.

01:53:00.000 We fought a war with the emus and we lost.

01:53:03.000 It's true.

01:53:04.000 We have emus on our farm and they are weird animals, man.

01:53:08.000 It's like living with dinosaurs. 1.00

01:53:10.000 They're dumb as shit too. 1.00

01:53:11.000 They are weird. 1.00

01:53:13.000 My wife says they don't have two brain cells to rub together. 1.00

01:53:17.000 I talked to a lady who's a falconer and she said the dumbest birds by far are emus. 1.00

01:53:22.000 Second dumbest are owls, she said. 0.99

01:53:24.000 I didn't know the owls. 0.99

01:53:24.000 Oh, really? 0.99

01:53:25.000 Isn't that crazy?

01:53:26.000 Yeah.

01:53:26.000 I didn't know that.

01:53:27.000 I thought they were so smart.

01:53:28.000 Give a hoot. 1.00

01:53:28.000 Don't pollute. 1.00

01:53:29.000 They're always wearing a monocle.

01:53:32.000 They're always the wise professor.

01:53:34.000 Well, right.

01:53:35.000 It goes back to Athens.

01:53:37.000 The symbol of learning has been the owl.

01:53:40.000 Very weird.

01:53:41.000 Yeah.

01:53:41.000 So emus are weird.

01:53:41.000 Very weird.

01:53:42.000 So they have to try to use drones.

01:53:44.000 I don't know what they're going to do.

01:53:45.000 What they did to control in Europe.

01:53:47.000 So the former assistant director general of the WHO, who I knew, this was her claim to fame, was she had led the development of rabies baits, and they would bait with a rabies vaccine to try to control the incidence of rabies in particularly foxes was the problem throughout Europe,

01:54:13.000 and a lot of the foxes were crossing from the less developed part of the European Union into France, which was not acceptable.

01:54:24.000 She was French.

01:54:26.000 And so what they did is they developed these baits with a vaccine and they would distribute them out of helicopters.

01:54:35.000 And there's a whole science about how dense the baits have to be to get immunity against rabies in fox populations, a whole science around it.

01:54:47.000 But they were successful.

01:54:49.000 They controlled fox and wolf population rabies in Europe, largely eradicated it through the use of baits distributed by helicopters.

01:54:58.000 Do they have a vaccine for this?

01:54:59.000 No, they don't.

01:55:00.000 That's what they were supposed to be developing.

01:55:01.000 That was the whole purpose.

01:55:02.000 They were supposed to be developing, but really what they were developing is a more transmissible strain.

01:55:08.000 Whatever.

01:55:09.000 In order to prove that they could, I don't know.

01:55:09.000 Yeah.

01:55:13.000 It's the same story over and over again.

01:55:15.000 Exactly.

01:55:15.000 It's Wuhan 2.0.

01:55:16.000 And how are we not going to see this as an increasing trend?

01:55:23.000 And there's the whole dark side that, you know, when I, you know, I read my comments.

01:55:28.000 Maybe I shouldn't sometimes, but I do.

01:55:31.000 Don't do it after this show.

01:55:35.000 So, so, you know, you get the blowback.

01:55:38.000 Well, this is all by intention because they're building market for whatever it is that they want to market.

01:55:44.000 Right.

01:55:44.000 That's the, there's one of the dark themes about COVID was that they wanted to promote the spread of COVID in order to sell the vaccines and blah, blah, blah.

01:55:52.000 You know, so that's the narrative.

01:55:54.000 And so in this case, well, they want to spread African swine fever because somehow they're going to profit from that while destroying their pork industry. 0.70

01:56:03.000 You know, but this is, this is the armchair strategists on the internet.

01:56:08.000 But that has it gotten into the domestic pork market?

01:56:13.000 Interesting question.

01:56:15.000 Not to my knowledge yet, but I have this interesting colleague that I work with closely at the ACIP named Retsif Levy, who's the chair of the COVID working group and has giving the pharmaceutical industry a run for their money right now.

01:56:28.000 And it's, of course, being vilified by the press, et cetera.

01:56:34.000 And Retsif is a full professor at MIT and his core competence is risk analysis and mitigation.

01:56:44.000 And he's, he, he reads my sub stack because we're friends.

01:56:49.000 He doesn't subscribe, I'm pretty sure, but he reads it.

01:56:54.000 And so he, we're talking and he says, yeah, I read that thing that you put out about that virus.

01:57:01.000 And he said, I wrote a proposal years ago about risk mitigation and the need to do something about that because of it, the ease by which it can enter the domestic pork population.

01:57:14.000 So I infer from that, that there is a whole body of science and logic about, and he said, it's, it's, it's very readily transmitted into commercial pork, which is why the Chinese have already dropped, you know, dropped the curtain and said, no, we're not going to allow any of that into our, into China because of the risk. 0.73

01:57:35.000 I mean, what we're talking about.

01:57:37.000 So I wrote an essay about low risk, high impact events, which is what we're talking about.

01:57:48.000 Another example of a low risk, high impact event is gene drive technology that Gates is promoting to exterminate the mosquitoes, for example, you know, gene drive technology can be used to exterminate a species, particularly ones that have a high reproductive rate.

01:58:05.000 And, uh, you know, it's another one that is a CRISPR application.

01:58:09.000 Uh, but there's a whole school of thought that gene drive tech should never be let out of the box into the environment because in, in the, what's, you know, there are those that are actively promoting its use, uh, and, uh, to eliminate bad stuff.

01:58:32.000 And, uh, you know, we're all for eliminating bad stuff, uh, um, uh, you know, organisms, insects, worms, flies, stuff, uh, and yet it, and, and we can do experiments where we say, oh, we'll cultivate this kind of fly together with that kind of fly.

01:58:53.000 And only these flies are going to have gene drive. 0.98

01:58:55.000 And we're going to look for whether or not it gets over to these flies.

01:58:57.000 And if it doesn't, then we can conclude that it's unlikely, but as Brett would tell you, um, we're dealing with ecosystems here, really complex ecosystems and the, the risk environment now that I think grownups have to acknowledge coming out of COVID, you know, the big lessons we can, we can, we can talk about these egregious things that we've all experienced that have been put on us.

01:59:24.000 But the big picture is this thing came out and I'm convinced it was engineered.

01:59:31.000 I'm, I, I believe the most likely hypothesis is not that it was intentionally released.

01:59:36.000 I still think that's a possibility, but that it was an unintentional, uh, release, uh, an infection of, of a lab worker or something like that, that let it get out.

01:59:47.000 Cause that's what happens again and again in these facilities.

01:59:49.000 Uh, the, these low probability events can have extremely high impacts and as we've seen global impacts and we have to rethink how we're managing risk, which is, as I mentioned, RETSF's kind of core competence.

02:00:10.000 And, and, and that logic runs up against this belief that, well, it hasn't happened so far and I'm an expert and I have the right to play around in this, in this sandbox that I've helped develop.

02:00:25.000 I know more than you do.

02:00:27.000 How can you tell me that I shouldn't be doing that?

02:00:29.000 You don't have the right to tell me.

02:00:30.000 I'm the expert in this space and, uh, to come into that environment and say, look guys, you're playing around with stuff that could have a very high impact, even though it hasn't happened yet.

02:00:43.000 And you got to, to rethink, uh, what is acceptable.

02:00:50.000 And, and I think that, that, you know, we were talking a moment about the state department and, uh, um, uh, weapon control.

02:00:59.000 We're now in an environment where the speed of, of, um, growth of the power of biotechnology is accelerating.

02:01:11.000 It's going exponential, just like what we saw with semiconductors and, uh, our bioethics, our regulatory structures, our, our way of thinking about those risks.

02:01:28.000 Is completely unable, unable to keep up with the pace of the advance.

02:01:36.000 And that is creating, uh, a whole new threat scene, not to scare people.

02:01:42.000 I mean, I, I, as I was thinking about coming on here, I was saying to myself, okay, Robert, just take a deep breath.

02:01:48.000 It's only Joe Rogan.

02:01:49.000 He's a human.

02:01:50.000 And, uh, you want to stay positive.

02:01:52.000 And I, I don't want to go dark and just scare people, but we've got to take a deep breath.

02:01:57.000 Hey, um, we got to recognize that, uh, this is a different world now.

02:02:05.000 We have all of this digital tech and, and what it means and information control and, and suppression and manipulation psychologically, uh, basically programming, customized programming, uh, through avatars and all of this power.

02:02:26.000 But we also have in parallel, uh, this world of rapidly advancing biotechnology that is, you know, for, for the likes of Yuval Harari and those that are imagining a future of transhumanism,

02:02:44.000 uh, uh, and all of that means, uh, we're, we are moving very rapidly into a world, uh, that we can hardly even process.

02:02:59.000 One of the big thrust vectors in Silicon Valley right now relating to reproductive rights has to do with the development of artificial wombs. 0.98

02:03:07.000 You know, these, these wealthy, um, privileged people don't want to carry their own babies.

02:03:15.000 And I guess surrogates are too cumbersome or risky.

02:03:19.000 So they're really talking about it's not talking.

02:03:22.000 It's not talking there.

02:03:24.000 They're there.

02:03:24.000 We're going to run an essay about this soon.

02:03:26.000 They already have a lamb that they have grown de novo in an artificial womb. 0.93

02:03:34.000 We're, we're, we're there.

02:03:36.000 Okay.

02:03:37.000 And, and these people see it as freeing.

02:03:39.000 This, this is, this is, um, more women's rights. 1.00

02:03:43.000 Uh, you know, we, we don't need to, uh, have the organic process of carrying a baby.

02:03:52.000 And that's a good thing.

02:03:53.000 They believe it, you know, completely disregarding that.

02:03:58.000 But there is a whole lot of subtle, complex interactions that occur between mother and fetus in the womb.

02:04:06.000 That gives rise to.

02:04:06.000 Okay.

02:04:08.000 You're, who knows what kind of humans you're going to develop with no interaction with the mother at all, the entire nine months where they're developing, the exchange of hormones.

02:04:08.000 Right.

02:04:18.000 But for the sake of convenience, we want to do that.

02:04:21.000 Oh God.

02:04:22.000 Okay.

02:04:23.000 And that, what that, you know, zoom in on that.

02:04:28.000 Okay.

02:04:28.000 That has all kinds of implications.

02:04:30.000 It has implications for organ transplantation.

02:04:34.000 My friend, Jan Jekielek, I don't know if you know Jan, if you've ever had him on, you might want to sometime.

02:04:39.000 Interesting character.

02:04:40.000 He is the Washington bureau chief for this, uh, newspaper that is defamed all the time, ridiculed, Epoch Times.

02:04:48.000 Okay.

02:04:48.000 Which I think is like the only print newspaper left in the United States that's worth reading that ascribes to classical journalism.

02:04:55.000 But he's just come out with a book about organ harvesting in China and organ harvesting on demand, documenting that they are using live prisoners and keeping them in compounds and testing them for their genetic background and characteristics, and then harvesting them when necessary to provide organs for transplantation, largely to Westerners, because it is enormously profitable.

02:05:20.000 And also to leaders in the CCP.

02:05:23.000 This is what all this brouhaha was about the open mic event with Putin, about, uh, we can use transplantation to let us live another hundred years that remember that little clip.

02:05:33.000 So that this, in, in a world in which we can have artificial wombs, um, we can grow our own clones to provide donor tissue, to buy, provide an insurance policy.

02:05:48.000 We are right at the doorstep of that.

02:05:53.000 Okay.

02:05:53.000 Again, demonic.

02:05:56.000 It sounds demonic.

02:05:57.000 I mean, is a soul a real thing just because it can't be quantified by science?

02:06:02.000 You can't measure it.

02:06:03.000 I mean, the concept of the soul has always existed.

02:06:06.000 If that's a real thing, who knows what you're doing, creating a human being from an artificial womb? 0.93

02:06:13.000 Who knows what kind of processes are happening?

02:06:16.000 We know that stress on the mother imparts all sorts of unwanted characteristics in children.

02:06:24.000 We know that.

02:06:26.000 We know, like...

02:06:27.000 All kinds of interactions.

02:06:28.000 Yes.

02:06:28.000 The playing of music.

02:06:29.000 That's real.

02:06:30.000 Okay.

02:06:30.000 Yes.

02:06:31.000 Yes.

02:06:31.000 Soothing, playing of music.

02:06:33.000 Yeah.

02:06:34.000 So, so that's happening.

02:06:37.000 That, that vector is proceeding.

02:06:39.000 And once you have that in the, in a world of CRISPR, okay, you can do genetic modification of a very small number of cells and then grow a fetus from that.

02:06:50.000 Okay.

02:06:51.000 So that opens the door to, do you remember, did you watch the movie Gattaca?

02:06:56.000 Yeah.

02:06:57.000 Gattaca, absolutely recommended.

02:06:59.000 If you want to understand our brave new world, the one that's really coming at us and the ethical conundrums associated with that, watch Gattaca.

02:07:09.000 And by the way, it has great production value too, doesn't it?

02:07:11.000 It's a well-made movie.

02:07:12.000 It's a great movie.

02:07:13.000 And totally underappreciated.

02:07:15.000 And terrifying.

02:07:16.000 If that's really what our future is.

02:07:16.000 Yeah.

02:07:18.000 And the title G-A-T-T-A-G-A refers to a DNA sequence, by the way.

02:07:23.000 That's why the name Gattaca.

02:07:24.000 Oh.

02:07:26.000 So, so watch the movie.

02:07:26.000 Okay.

02:07:29.000 You've already seen it.

02:07:30.000 You get it.

02:07:30.000 Yeah.

02:07:31.000 We're moving to that space where we have custom built humans.

02:07:31.000 Okay.

02:07:37.000 Now it's being, you know, what's driving that?

02:07:41.000 Convenience.

02:07:41.000 Who doesn't want to have a child that's better than, that's like you, but better, stronger, bigger, you know, smarter, better vision.

02:07:51.000 Get rid of all the problems that I've got, right?

02:07:53.000 Or you've got, or whomever, you know, and, and in your, in your next offspring and all you got to do, because here's another fun fact.

02:08:01.000 At bulk, whole genome sequencing is now about 300 bucks.

02:08:07.000 Whole genome sequencing is the, is the portal for selective engineering with, with Cas9 CRISPR systems.

02:08:18.000 So we're, we now, we're right on the threshold of that entire spectrum of capability of manipulating animals, life, fundamentals of life in every species and humans.

02:08:32.000 And concurrently, we have the incoming vector of robotics technology and modern computational advance.

02:08:42.000 You know, we're moving rapidly.

02:08:43.000 I, you know, people say, oh, it's going to be next month.

02:08:46.000 We're going to have general artificial intelligence.

02:08:48.000 Well, they keep saying that month after month.

02:08:50.000 What do we got here?

02:08:52.000 This video made about the, the artificial wounds.

02:08:57.000 Oh boy.

02:08:57.000 Yeah.

02:08:58.000 I don't know who made this.

02:09:00.000 I was trying to figure out who made this.

02:09:01.000 I don't think the company.

02:09:02.000 Oh, this is so creepy.

02:09:04.000 I'm not BSing.

02:09:05.000 I mean, doesn't this look like it's something straight out of the matrix?

02:09:09.000 A hundred percent.

02:09:10.000 This is all 3D.

02:09:11.000 Oh my, obviously it's not real, but oh my God, this is terrifying.

02:09:14.000 That this, this is a business model.

02:09:17.000 Like what is it?

02:09:17.000 What kind of psychology does this child have with no exposure to its mother?

02:09:22.000 Hey, but for mom, it's a lot more convenient and she can get the perfect baby that she wants. 0.99

02:09:30.000 What's not to like here, Joe? 1.00

02:09:31.000 Until it becomes a fucking serial killer. 1.00

02:09:33.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:09:34.000 And you put it on SSRIs.

02:09:35.000 Well, this is the thing about, do you know the story about Ted Kaczynski?

02:09:39.000 One of the stories, one of the things that happened to him.

02:09:42.000 In the Netflix documentary, they go into this.

02:09:43.000 He was very sick when he was a boy, when he was a baby.

02:09:46.000 And they kept him in this nursery with no contact with human beings for a long time.

02:09:51.000 For a long time.

02:09:52.000 No one picked him up when he cried.

02:09:54.000 He just sat in this crib with no contact with his mother.

02:09:58.000 Yeah.

02:09:58.000 Nothing.

02:09:59.000 And he, from then on, I mean, his brother always described him as just like off.

02:10:05.000 Just off.

02:10:05.000 Yeah.

02:10:06.000 He never had that early.

02:10:06.000 Yeah.

02:10:08.000 Early stage neural development is amazing and profound.

02:10:12.000 By the way, this looks back to the vaccine story.

02:10:15.000 When we're, when we're doing all these jabs and these little tiny kids like hepatitis B birthdose, they are at a stage where this thing is just growing like crazy.

02:10:24.000 And so is their liver and everything else.

02:10:26.000 And you're injecting toxic chemicals into their body.

02:10:29.000 Which you, which you really haven't characterized well.

02:10:32.000 And you're stacking them.

02:10:34.000 Yeah.

02:10:35.000 And no one's done the studies.

02:10:37.000 So this is.

02:10:37.000 And you're doing it for profit.

02:10:38.000 This is another thing that the secretary is adamant about and that the president has led on.

02:10:44.000 Well, the, the, having them exempt from any legal ramifications of the adverse side effects of vaccines, what they did during the Reagan administration, it's really, it gave them this.

02:10:55.000 It's free license.

02:10:56.000 Free license.

02:10:56.000 Yeah.

02:10:57.000 To just go crazy and jack up the vaccine schedule as high as they could justify.

02:10:57.000 To just go crazy.

02:11:02.000 And then along with it, corresponding profits rise. 0.98

02:11:05.000 That's what's fucking scary. 0.94

02:11:07.000 So if you want to go down that rabbit hole, it's even worse. 0.97

02:11:12.000 Once functionally, because of how difficult it is to prove an endpoint and get a vaccine licensed, once you get it licensed, you basically have a cash cow in perpetuity.

02:11:23.000 And if you get it down on the pediatric schedule, in other words, you manage to jam it through the ACIP.

02:11:30.000 Because the ACIP, the wisdom of Congress, is vested with the authority of authorizing the vaccines for children program acquisitions.

02:11:40.000 So if the, there's no other program in the entire U.S. States, United States government that is outside of congressional oversight.

02:11:48.000 The ACIP can decide that this vaccine needs to be purchased for the vaccines for children program.

02:11:55.000 And historically, because the ACIP has been captured by pharma and by the CDC itself and by academia, those decisions, they never go backwards.

02:12:07.000 And so you get the product down onto the VFC, the Vaccine for Children program, and the pediatric schedule.

02:12:14.000 And then that triggers the indemnification clause that you're talking about, which, by the way, is different from the one that kicked in with the COVID situation with the PrEP Act.

02:12:24.000 That's even worse.

02:12:26.000 But what you end up with, Joe, is a situation where, as the vaccine manufacturer, think it, you now have no legal liability.

02:12:38.000 You have guaranteed purchasing, distribution, and marketing.

02:12:42.000 Because the CDC does all the propaganda.

02:12:44.000 Vaccines are safe and effective.

02:12:46.000 You must take this, right?

02:12:47.000 And then you end up with, and it's in many cases, it's school district level.

02:12:52.000 It's not even state level.

02:12:53.000 The states have the right to regulate the practice of medicine.

02:12:56.000 The federal government doesn't.

02:12:57.000 That means the CDC can advise that this is the vaccine schedule.

02:13:01.000 And many states, because they don't have the infrastructure to actually process what's going on, they say, well, if the CDC advises it, then we're going to mandate it.

02:13:10.000 OK?

02:13:10.000 Or school districts do.

02:13:12.000 And so you end up in this situation where you, as the manufacturer, get your product on the market, you get it down into this special program, you got guaranteed purchase, guaranteed profit, full indemnification, marketing, purchase, distribution, all paid for by the taxpayer.

02:13:31.000 And no liability.

02:13:33.000 It's perfect as a business model.

02:13:36.000 What's not to like?

02:13:37.000 It's so scary how many people just go along with it, too.

02:13:41.000 Oh, they don't just go along with it.

02:13:42.000 They are propagandized into believing it as a theology.

02:13:46.000 And promoting it as a theology.

02:13:48.000 They've administered to – exactly.

02:13:49.000 I was going to say it's religious dogma.

02:13:51.000 They've administered it to their children.

02:13:53.000 They believe it wholeheartedly.

02:13:55.000 And when someone says something like, vaccines don't cause autism, the whole audience will applaud.

02:13:59.000 And you're like, how do you know?

02:14:01.000 How do you know that?

02:14:02.000 Well, you're so confident that you're applauding.

02:14:04.000 Well, it's because of what I've heard.

02:14:05.000 I've heard it so many times.

02:14:07.000 Of course I believe it.

02:14:09.000 That's what's twisted about it.

02:14:10.000 It's just – well, it illustrates the power of what we're dealing with.

02:14:15.000 Yeah.

02:14:16.000 And once you get it by thinking through the vaccine story, I mean, you've – you're ruined now, my friend.

02:14:24.000 Because once you get it about vaccines, then you see it everywhere.

02:14:29.000 Well, I had Suzanne Humphreys on who wrote that book, Dissolving Illusions.

02:14:34.000 And that book is a must-read for anybody who wants to really understand the history of vaccines and what really happened in terms of the end of pandemics and the introduction of these vaccines.

02:14:47.000 Like what actually took place?

02:14:49.000 Yes.

02:14:50.000 Oh, that – and there's a whole thread of – of how prevalent lead was in the population in the powdered wigs and so many things that we had.

02:15:01.000 And then when they got rid of the lead, that was concurrent with the onset of widespread vaccination.

02:15:06.000 And so the loss of life associated – or the improvement in loss of life and birth outcomes associated with getting the lead out of the population, well, that's ascribed to the vaccines by the people that are busy marketing vaccines.

02:15:21.000 And likewise, all the work associated with water sanitation and all of that.

02:15:29.000 No, that's all true.

02:15:30.000 The first time I – to credit what credit is due as a vaccinologist.

02:15:34.000 The first time I really encountered that logic was Candace Owens had me on years ago.

02:15:42.000 And she said, you know, we've done this deep dive and we've looked at this thing and these infectious diseases go down before the vaccines come up.

02:15:50.000 And yet we're told this narrative.

02:15:53.000 Right.

02:15:54.000 And of course we're told this narrative.

02:15:56.000 Yeah.

02:15:57.000 The polio one is the nuttier one. 1.00

02:15:59.000 Because when people are so concerned about polio and polio vaccines and we've cured polio, they're going to bring back polio if they stop the vaccines.

02:16:08.000 When I tell them what percentage of polio do you think is asymptomatic and that most people think like none, right?

02:16:18.000 It's 95 to 99 percent of polio is asymptomatic.

02:16:23.000 And then you find out through Suzanne Humphrey's work that they were spraying DDT ubiquitously all over the country at the same time.

02:16:31.000 And it gives you the same exact symptoms of paralytic polio.

02:16:37.000 And then subsequently the actual first infections that started occurring in this country were occurring in rural areas where they spray DDT everywhere.

02:16:46.000 Yeah, so one of – so there's – if I can kind of throw another log in the fire on that narrative.

02:16:56.000 One of the cool things that I'm getting to see from my perch at the ACIP is people working at the cutting edge of modern genetic technology investigations about cause and effect and genomic effects.

02:17:12.000 And one of the things – you talk about this rare incidence of paralytic polio or myocarditis, OK?

02:17:22.000 Myocarditis is rare with the vaccine and yet it happens at a significant rate.

02:17:27.000 It happens more in certain populations than other populations.

02:17:30.000 This was heresy at first and now they were forced to admit it and stay tuned later in February.

02:17:36.000 But there's a group that had a big grant to look at genetic links associated with risk factors for this.

02:17:48.000 And strangely, halfway through their program during the Biden administration, all their funding got caught.

02:17:53.000 But they still made a lot of progress and they kind of limped along with volunteer stuff.

02:17:58.000 Modern – I mentioned the genome costs, 300 bucks a genome.

02:18:02.000 So these guys have gone through and they've identified seven genes that represent high risk factors for myocarditis after vaccination.

02:18:11.000 Myocarditis after vaccination, by the way, was a major side effect associated with the smallpox vaccines or one of them.

02:18:18.000 It's been associated with vaccines for quite a while.

02:18:21.000 We just kind of haven't heard about it and it's particularly bad with these.

02:18:24.000 But there – we – one of the – trying to continue my theme of it's not all dark.

02:18:33.000 One of the things that's coming out is that if we commit to it and do the research like Team Kennedy is committed to doing, we may well be able to detect those people that – the genetic characteristics of those people that might have been at higher risk for say paralytic polio or myocarditis.

02:18:56.000 So that we can have genetic tests and you can have that test and determine whether you actually have that risk factor.

02:19:04.000 It looks like because of the dynamics of clinical research and epidemiology in infectious disease that this kind of application of genetic diagnostic technology may give us whole new insights into those small populations that had those rare events.

02:19:22.000 You know, we know the big picture in COVID and the COVID vaccination, post-vaccination syndromes of the high-risk individuals with obesity and elderly and basically people with a high inflammatory set point.

02:19:38.000 But now we're getting down into some of the nuances and I think that that's – you know, I talked about some of the dark sides of biotechnology.

02:19:44.000 But there are some real bright sides that offer hope, and what will happen as that kind of starts to roll out is that manufacturers and academic surrogates and others are kind of – they're not going to be able to continue to hide behind these narratives that they have promoted now for decades,

02:20:16.000 because the true-true is going to come out.

02:20:20.000 It is going to come out.

02:20:22.000 Is it going to come out during this administration?

02:20:24.000 No.

02:20:25.000 To do long-term follow-up studies are going to take a decade.

02:20:28.000 That's the unfortunate truth and that we're going to have a lot of grief around that.

02:20:32.000 How come you haven't already – fill in the blank.

02:20:35.000 But it's going to happen and that is another big plus of what's going on right now kind of behind the scenes at HHS.

02:20:35.000 Right.

02:20:47.000 Hopefully, they get a chance to still do it after the midterm and they don't get hogtied.

02:20:53.000 But I'm optimistic that we're – these narratives that have been promoted, these false narratives, we're going to be able to break them through doing actual science if we're allowed to do it.

02:21:06.000 And this new technology is particularly with sequence analysis and identification of risk correlates.

02:21:17.000 The intersection between sequence analysis and epidemiology is going to really open up new understandings about what's going on in human disease.

02:21:25.000 I'm absolutely convinced.

02:21:27.000 What we do about it is that's a whole other kettle of fish.

02:21:31.000 I mean we can do the science until the cows come home.

02:21:34.000 The public policy part is wicked hard.

02:21:40.000 But at least there's some positive developments.

02:21:45.000 That's what I want to say is – Some bright light at the end.

02:21:45.000 Yeah.

02:21:48.000 There is all this dark stuff.

02:21:50.000 And we have to allow ourselves to see it.

02:21:50.000 Yeah.

02:21:57.000 You see it and you get the reaction like you did.

02:22:00.000 I don't want to see that.

02:22:02.000 That's too much.

02:22:04.000 It's too overwhelming.

02:22:05.000 It's too scary.

02:22:07.000 But we look away at our own risk.

02:22:11.000 And we have this tendency to say it's all dark.

02:22:16.000 You know, we have these individuals.

02:22:19.000 I mentioned Yuval Harari, you know, believing that man is God now.

02:22:25.000 We no longer need God.

02:22:27.000 We have become gods.

02:22:28.000 We have become as gods.

02:22:29.000 Does he actually say that?

02:22:30.000 Yeah.

02:22:31.000 Really?

02:22:32.000 Well, isn't he talking sort of metaphorically about our technological potential?

02:22:37.000 I don't know.

02:22:39.000 I don't know how to discern the meaning of – He's a very demonized guy.

02:22:43.000 He says a lot of dark stuff and I think – so you probably read the book.

02:22:50.000 Did you interview the author of – Yeah, the Sapiens.

02:22:53.000 Do you read the author of Dark Aeon?

02:22:56.000 No.

02:22:56.000 No, I've never read that either.

02:22:57.000 So that's talking – What is Dark Aeon?

02:22:59.000 This is talking more about kind of the Silicon Valley culture that's pushing transhumanism and how integrally it's become involved in this space.

02:23:14.000 I mean what – I don't have – I don't pal around with Elon and – not to say he is or whomever you want to talk about in that space.

02:23:23.000 That's – that's not my pay grade.

02:23:26.000 But my understanding and I read these things.

02:23:30.000 Maybe they're also – maybe that's also propaganda that a lot of these people of let's say the Bill Gates cast and the younger ones associated with that would – are advocates for a world in which they are able to upload their avatar consciousness in a digital space and live forever.

02:23:50.000 Trevor Burrus That's Ray Kurzweil, right?

02:23:53.000 Trevor Burrus Sounds like you know more.

02:23:55.000 I mean you're the UAP guy here, which by the way is another fascinating domain that I'm learning more about.

02:24:05.000 Trevor Burrus It's bizarre.

02:24:06.000 That's a rabbit hole.

02:24:07.000 You go down like, oh, this isn't empty.

02:24:10.000 This is not an empty rabbit hole.

02:24:11.000 There's a lot of money behind this and it seems like there's been a lot of black funding and – Trevor Burrus Business.

02:24:17.000 A lot of business.

02:24:17.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah.

02:24:18.000 Defense contractors involved.

02:24:20.000 Trevor Burrus It seems like there's some inventions that sort of emerged out of nowhere that supposedly are connected to back engineering programs.

02:24:28.000 Trevor Burrus So I'm now – I'm now of the belief that there exists a capability that transcends physics as we know it.

02:24:44.000 let's say Einsteinian physics and is more aligned with Hawking's physics that we can't – we don't comprehend right now.

02:24:57.000 Trevor Burrus And it has to do with extremely high energy systems and I having – I mean I've had some of these guys because I'm now known worldwide as a nutcase I guess and conspiracy theorist.

02:25:14.000 Trevor Burrus I've had them on my farm, you know, staying in our guest house and shooting the bull and me trying to understand their world and what they're seeing and what they've experienced and observed and the information.

02:25:32.000 Trevor Burrus And I'm – there's a lot of different models for what the hell is going on here and maybe it's all us, right?

02:25:39.000 That's one model.

02:25:40.000 Trevor Burrus It's all us with – Trevor Burrus Secret technology.

02:25:43.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah, that's one model for the – what do they call it? Tic-tacs and – I'm increasingly convinced by the logic that there is a physics beyond the physics that we know that is the physics of extremely high energy systems.

02:25:59.000 Trevor Burrus And in high energy systems, a lot of the rules about motion and transportation and matter and the ability to cross between matter states that is repeatedly observed and reported by responsible people, military folks that have strong disincentives for saying this stuff.

02:26:29.000 Trevor Burrus And yet still they're saying, that's what I saw, OK?

02:26:33.000 Trevor Burrus Transmedium devices that can fly and then go underwater as fast as they're flying.

02:26:37.000 Trevor Burrus And no ripples.

02:26:39.000 Trevor Burrus So I – one of the models of that is that this has to do with having some extremely high energy source in a very small package.

02:26:39.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah.

02:26:54.000 And is that possible?

02:26:57.000 Trevor Burrus We're now moving into a new fusion world, right?

02:27:03.000 We're talking about these microfusion reactors that are going to be powering our data centers all over the world, transforming the whole energy, right?

02:27:12.000 I mean there's this logic in crossing over into the economics, Bitcoin or kind of space.

02:27:19.000 Trevor Burrus There's this logic that it all comes down to energy.

02:27:24.000 Energy is the one thing that fuels economic development and everything around us.

02:27:33.000 Trevor Burrus And I'm not a physicist but I listen and learn and it sounds to me like these micro-reactors and the technology that was involved strangely in this assassination.

02:27:50.000 Trevor Burrus Remember that bizarre assassination in Boston that happened?

02:27:55.000 There was two competing companies.

02:27:58.000 Trevor Burrus The MIT guy.

02:27:59.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah, there's something going on there that's really transformational and if it matures – remember Trump has invested in this in a big way.

02:28:16.000 Trevor Burrus If we emerge into a future within my lifetime probably of these micro-nukes as energy sources decentralized, first driven by the tech bros because they want to have their data centers.

02:28:40.000 Trevor Burrus But then suddenly we have – as that matures and the patents come off, we have the ability to put power generation in very small packages wherever we want in the world.

02:28:54.000 Trevor Burrus Suddenly the entire landscape of economic activity and the future of humanity is transformed like that and that's just the beginning.

02:29:03.000 Trevor Burrus If we push that technology, we may find ourselves in some space where we have the ability to produce extremely large amounts of energy in a very small package and use that – of course it will be weaponized.

02:29:21.000 Trevor Burrus Use that for a variety of things but I think the guys that are speculating about these phenomena being driven by the existence of almost point sources of unlimited energy functionally may make sense out of things that otherwise are really hard to wrap your head around.

02:29:47.000 Trevor Burrus Well, we're in for a very interesting future one way or another.

02:29:52.000 Trevor Burrus Yes, and it doesn't have to be dark and demonic.

02:29:56.000 Trevor Burrus Hopefully not. 1.00

02:29:57.000 Trevor Burrus If we let these bastards have their way. 0.99

02:29:59.000 Trevor Burrus What is this, Jamie? 1.00

02:30:01.000 Trevor Burrus Make a small correction.

02:30:02.000 Trevor Burrus That video I showed you apparently isn't real, not a real company made by a Berlin filmmaker in 2022.

02:30:09.000 Trevor Burrus Went viral.

02:30:11.000 Trevor Burrus I found it in a New York Post article that kind of said it was real.

02:30:14.000 Trevor Burrus But – Trevor Burrus But there are plans to do something along those lines.

02:30:18.000 Trevor Burrus Well, I was going to say, which is a little weirder.

02:30:19.000 Trevor Burrus It says at the bottom, this is getting confused with a pregnancy robot that was announced in China in 2025.

02:30:25.000 Trevor Burrus This, though, apparently also is not real also.

02:30:28.000 Trevor Burrus The pregnancy robot is not real?

02:30:30.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah.

02:30:31.000 Trevor Burrus It was – they named a scientist that was working on it.

02:30:34.000 Trevor Burrus Oh, God.

02:30:34.000 Trevor Burrus It's not a real person.

02:30:35.000 Trevor Burrus Look at that.

02:30:36.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah, but – Trevor Burrus The company working on it.

02:30:39.000 Trevor Burrus Nonetheless – Trevor Burrus Nonetheless – Trevor Burrus They are working on artificial worms.

02:30:42.000 Trevor Burrus We're going to come out – so see if you can find the – since you're so good at Googling or whatever you're doing, see if you can find the images of this artificial womb and I believe it's a lamb.

02:30:59.000 Trevor Burrus We've seen the lamb before, but I'm just saying that the people thing is – Trevor Burrus The factory thing with people.

02:30:59.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah, no.

02:31:04.000 Trevor Burrus Oh, well, that was obviously AI.

02:31:06.000 Trevor Burrus Not that it wasn't AI.

02:31:06.000 Trevor Burrus No, that's what I'm saying.

02:31:07.000 Trevor Burrus It wasn't even a real company that was doing it.

02:31:09.000 Trevor Burrus It's synthetic images.

02:31:11.000 Trevor Burrus I don't want to give up fake news.

02:31:12.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah, good.

02:31:13.000 Trevor Burrus Well, God forbid.

02:31:14.000 Trevor Burrus We might get banned.

02:31:16.000 Trevor Burrus Well, Robert, thank you so much for being here.

02:31:18.000 Trevor Burrus I really appreciate it and it was nice for you to come back and under less hostile terms in the world.

02:31:25.000 Trevor Burrus Well, it wasn't hostile then.

02:31:26.000 Trevor Burrus No, but I think your message was a lot more hostile and it's the way it was received, you know, like you were received in a hostile way.

02:31:38.000 Trevor Burrus I don't think this one is going to be hostile.

02:31:39.000 Trevor Burrus I think pretty much everything that you said, most people are aware of now and then the other things that you're saying, they're not far-fetched at all.

02:31:48.000 Trevor Burrus And I think there's a lot more people that are more open to receiving information like that now than ever before.

02:31:55.000 Trevor Burrus Well, some of it can be attributed to you.

02:31:59.000 Trevor Burrus Well, that's kind, let's say to the community.

02:32:02.000 Trevor Burrus Yeah, sure.

02:32:04.000 Trevor Burrus And of which I'm a vehicle, have been at times.

02:32:09.000 Trevor Burrus A lot of the stuff that I shared with you back then was the consequence of a community that I was embedded in, of other physicians and scientists, many of whom were primary care practitioners.

02:32:22.000 Trevor Burrus And I was attending weekly meetings with these people and I had frontline knowledge of what they were seeing and experiencing.

02:32:31.000 Trevor Burrus And I had frontline knowledge of the physicians that I was collaborating with at DITRA, of what they were experiencing.

02:32:39.000 Trevor Burrus I was never managing COVID patients except myself.

02:32:43.000 Trevor Burrus But I knew what others were experiencing and you gave me an opportunity to share their voice through me and I thank you for that.

02:32:54.000 Trevor Burrus It was a moment in time and I think we did good, but by God, they came at us.

02:33:01.000 Trevor Burrus It was wild.

02:33:02.000 Trevor Burrus Well, thank you, sir.

02:33:03.000 Thank you very much.

02:33:04.000 I really appreciate you being here.

The Joe Rogan Experience - February 13, 2026

Joe Rogan Experience #2454 - Robert Malone, MD

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