The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2456 - Michael Jai White

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out!

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night, all day.

00:00:12.000 You're all suited up.

00:00:13.000 You got a wild card boxing hat on, a Bruce Lee shirt.

00:00:16.000 Come on, son.

00:00:17.000 Hey, we got the yellow and thing going on.

00:00:22.000 Yeah, you got it all going on.

00:00:23.000 What's happened?

00:00:24.000 Great to see you.

00:00:25.000 Man, things are really well.

00:00:27.000 This thing is a little loud.

00:00:28.000 Is it?

00:00:28.000 There's a, on that thing there, there's a little volume knob.

00:00:32.000 You can turn that sucker down.

00:00:33.000 There it is.

00:00:34.000 Last time I saw you was at Terry Black's Barbecue.

00:00:36.000 Yeah.

00:00:37.000 Random run-in.

00:00:38.000 Yeah, that was crazy.

00:00:39.000 That was crazy.

00:00:40.000 Yeah, man.

00:00:40.000 I was thinking about going there right after this.

00:00:42.000 I'm like, what, Terry Black's?

00:00:44.000 That place was no joke.

00:00:45.000 That place rules.

00:00:46.000 Yeah, man.

00:00:47.000 Are you still in LA?

00:00:49.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:00:50.000 What's it like?

00:00:51.000 It's cool, man.

00:00:53.000 You like it?

00:00:53.000 Yeah.

00:00:53.000 Is it?

00:00:54.000 You're the only person that said that.

00:00:56.000 No.

00:00:57.000 Yeah, well, because, okay, I defend L.A. in a way where, first of all, if you got a handful of good people with you, you know, and your family, then it's so the fact that LA has all kinds of different things, you could be on a hiking trail in 20 minutes.

00:01:13.000 You could beat it.

00:01:14.000 Geographically, it's amazing.

00:01:16.000 Yeah, and the weather, you can't beat it.

00:01:19.000 So if you got good people, good friends with you, then it's all good.

00:01:23.000 You just run by crooks.

00:01:25.000 It's a nice neighborhood run by the mob.

00:01:28.000 It's run by the woke mob.

00:01:30.000 But I mean, geographically, you can't beat it.

00:01:32.000 You could be at the ocean and then you could be in the mountains in two hours.

00:01:36.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:01:37.000 Yeah, so that's that's even if you don't partake, it's still cool.

00:01:42.000 It still amps up the dante, really.

00:01:45.000 Oh, yeah.

00:01:46.000 Like the spot itself is magical.

00:01:49.000 It is a magical place to live.

00:01:51.000 Although, I am deeply concerned that that motherfucker is going to get hit with a big one soon.

00:01:57.000 It's about time, right?

00:01:58.000 Yeah.

00:01:59.000 I was reading this article about massive earthquakes in California and how often they're spread out and the possibility of one of them happening within the next decade.

00:02:09.000 It's very high.

00:02:10.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:11.000 You know, I try not to think about that.

00:02:14.000 I try not to think about it too, bro.

00:02:16.000 But, you know, now there's, you know, you can, I think they have better detection of that stuff now, too.

00:02:16.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:25.000 It's better.

00:02:26.000 It doesn't matter.

00:02:27.000 It doesn't matter.

00:02:28.000 They can't detect.

00:02:30.000 Do you remember what happened in Italy?

00:02:32.000 A couple guys got arrested and went to jail.

00:02:35.000 They were seismologists because the company, the country rather, didn't understand the ability to detect it.

00:02:42.000 They had a big earthquake and a bunch of people died.

00:02:45.000 And so they blamed these geologists or seismologists.

00:02:49.000 They wound up winning in court on appeal because eventually the science was revealed.

00:02:54.000 Like, hey, there's no fucking way you can really tell.

00:02:57.000 But they hung these guys out.

00:02:59.000 They blame these guys on not being able to detect it.

00:03:02.000 Man.

00:03:03.000 Well, I mean, just think about it.

00:03:05.000 The last crazy ones was 72 and then 94.

00:03:09.000 Yeah.

00:03:10.000 I think it was 93.

00:03:11.000 I came, I moved to LA right after the last big one.

00:03:14.000 I saw one of the sections of the highway that had collapsed on the other one.

00:03:18.000 I remember driving by going, fuck this place.

00:03:22.000 I was in the middle of that one.

00:03:23.000 I just, I came into LA.

00:03:25.000 Oh, you were there?

00:03:26.000 Dude, I don't even like to tell the story about what happened during that 94 earthquake.

00:03:30.000 Because it sounds like bullshit.

00:03:30.000 Oh, yeah.

00:03:33.000 But literally, I got up, ran out of my house, my apartment at the time, jumped off the balcony and watched it happen.

00:03:46.000 You watched the house collapse?

00:03:48.000 I watched the earthquake happen from outside.

00:03:50.000 Oh.

00:03:52.000 It's like no bullshit.

00:03:53.000 Everybody's.

00:03:54.000 So I thought, oh, shit, I overreacted.

00:03:57.000 I had a bad dream.

00:03:59.000 I lived on the first floor of this apartment building.

00:04:03.000 All I know is I wake up, I'm off balance, catching my balance in the parking lot, right?

00:04:10.000 And like, oh, shoot, I got to find the guard to get me back in the apartment building, right?

00:04:16.000 And I'm thinking, what, you know, what's like, I've lost my mind or something.

00:04:20.000 The next thing you know, everything shakes and the lights go out.

00:04:26.000 Just everything gets black.

00:04:28.000 And so I'm backing, I retreat back because I'm thinking the building was going to fall on me.

00:04:35.000 And I'm like, wait a minute.

00:04:38.000 Then I got the story from everybody else that experienced it.

00:04:45.000 They said that the first thing that happened was the building shook and the lights went out.

00:04:52.000 Well, I was outside watching that.

00:04:54.000 So I'm outside when it happened.

00:04:59.000 Like some kind of.

00:05:00.000 What made you jump over the feeling?

00:05:04.000 Dude.

00:05:05.000 Or did you have like the first, was it the first rumbles?

00:05:09.000 I thought it was, I thought I reacted to the, like some kind of an aftershock or some kind of rumble.

00:05:14.000 No, because the girl that was with me.

00:05:17.000 You left her in the apartment? 0.85

00:05:22.000 Dude.

00:05:24.000 All she knows is that you jumped up and you ran out of, you ran out of the house and I heard the door slide and that was, and then the next thing you know, everything shook.

00:05:37.000 She couldn't, she was trapped in there because there was a closet door that trapped her in the hallway.

00:05:47.000 So when I got back in the place, me and a friend had to try to pry the door open because she couldn't get out. 0.99

00:05:53.000 But I ran out of that place before the earthquake actually happened.

00:05:59.000 How weird.

00:06:00.000 You got good instincts.

00:06:00.000 Yeah.

00:06:02.000 I don't know what the hell that was.

00:06:04.000 It has to be.

00:06:05.000 I don't even like telling that story because it sounds like bullshit.

00:06:11.000 It really happened that way.

00:06:13.000 Then the guard, I talked to the guard, I'm like, hey, when did the lights go out?

00:06:17.000 Oh, it shook and the lights went out.

00:06:18.000 I'm like, I'm watching that happen.

00:06:21.000 So you felt it happen before it happened?

00:06:24.000 Some kind of weird way.

00:06:26.000 Well, I bet humans have that.

00:06:28.000 Animals definitely have that.

00:06:29.000 They talk about Thailand, how they had that tsunami and all the animals ran up to the highest point of the island.

00:06:36.000 They all just took off.

00:06:37.000 It's like they just knew instinctively.

00:06:40.000 I don't know.

00:06:41.000 Nothing like that has ever happened afterwards.

00:06:44.000 But I got to say, there's been, I've been lucky over the years.

00:06:48.000 Yeah, but you're a dude who's tuned in.

00:06:50.000 You're tuned into your body.

00:06:51.000 You're tuned into your environment.

00:06:53.000 You're not going to get caught slipping.

00:06:55.000 Like you probably felt something and your spidey sense went off.

00:07:00.000 Yeah, I kind of have been like that growing up.

00:07:05.000 Like I've been, you know, I've been on my own since I was 14.

00:07:10.000 Been through crazy shit that you normally would see on movies.

00:07:13.000 And that's the type of shit that gives you those kind of instincts.

00:07:16.000 But yeah, and I was always the one that said, hey, let's leave.

00:07:19.000 Let's get out of here.

00:07:20.000 And then, hey, man, there was a shootout.

00:07:22.000 Did it just happen right after you left?

00:07:25.000 Or I could detect like the predators.

00:07:28.000 You know what I mean?

00:07:29.000 So I grew up kind of that way.

00:07:32.000 Because you have to look at the current.

00:07:32.000 Right.

00:07:32.000 There's nobody looking out for you.

00:07:34.000 Yeah.

00:07:34.000 Nobody was looking out for you.

00:07:35.000 You got to look out for yourself.

00:07:37.000 Well, yeah.

00:07:37.000 I mean, I was, oh, I was, I was like always the junior of the group a lot of times because like I said, you know, I've been on my own since I was 14.

00:07:45.000 I haven't grown an ant since I was 13, 14.

00:07:48.000 I was, I looked like a grown-ass man, right?

00:07:51.000 I was fighting in tournaments at 15 against Grown men, like you know, fighting heavyweight at that time.

00:08:00.000 But I was always hanging with older people, uh, kind of, you know, kind of like I got away with kind of living as an adult early on.

00:08:13.000 Because, like, you know, did you work?

00:08:16.000 Yeah, well, I was teaching karate school, karate class.

00:08:19.000 What was doing, what was, what was happening, see, I used to hang out at this community center in the hood.

00:08:26.000 At this time, I moved from Brooklyn to Bridgeport, Connecticut, right?

00:08:31.000 Bridgeport's a tough name, right?

00:08:32.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:08:33.000 It was a lot of people don't know.

00:08:34.000 Yeah, we had the top murder rate per capita, man.

00:08:37.000 Bridgeport's rough.

00:08:38.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:08:39.000 So I was constantly, I mean, there's a community center that was like my haven.

00:08:48.000 And I would go practice with me and my other karate nuts, you know?

00:08:54.000 And so I'd be in the paper for winning heavyweight, you know, competitions or whatever.

00:09:01.000 And so the people that was running the community center said, why don't you teach a class?

00:09:05.000 They thought I was an adult.

00:09:07.000 Oh, that's hilarious.

00:09:08.000 And so I was teaching like a, you know, like kind of like just under the table.

00:09:12.000 I was getting paid under the table, basically.

00:09:15.000 But I had like close to 200 students early on, like when I'm 15, 16.

00:09:19.000 Oh, that's crazy.

00:09:20.000 So, you know, it was kind of a trip.

00:09:20.000 Yeah.

00:09:24.000 You know, which is one of the reasons why I was a father at 15.

00:09:28.000 You know, because I had one of my students' older sister, you know, was like, had a crush on her, her, on his instructor.

00:09:40.000 But I was kind of living the life of a grown-up, like early on.

00:09:46.000 And so, you know, there's a faction of people in Bridgeport who think I'm Satan, I guess, because they think that I'm probably in my 70s now.

00:09:56.000 You're a vampire.

00:09:57.000 Right.

00:09:58.000 So there's some people I had to admit, like, no, I wasn't the age you thought I was back then.

00:09:58.000 Yeah.

00:10:03.000 Oh, that's crazy.

00:10:04.000 Yeah.

00:10:04.000 But I mean, so, yeah, you know, one of the things I'm really grateful for is growing up that early and having to, you know, use my instincts.

00:10:16.000 And being that, you know, street fighting and fighting was like my favorite thing to do, actually.

00:10:22.000 And so with when I got into the martial arts deeper and everything else, you know, I just really, I really dug into it and wanted to learn style after style and this, you know, everything.

00:10:36.000 I was just a martial art nerd for it.

00:10:39.000 But I also liked the realistic portion of it, even though I was doing other styles like Wushu and everything else.

00:10:49.000 But, you know, it was actually my haven.

00:10:52.000 Somewhere Eddie Bravo has to find this video.

00:10:55.000 There's a video of us working out together at Legends where we were talking about hopping sidekicks and different types of sidekicks.

00:11:04.000 And you threw, there was a bag that we had that had a shitty chain.

00:11:07.000 But regardless, you threw a hopping sidekick on that chain and the chain snapped and went flying.

00:11:14.000 And Eddie Bravo was like, what the fuck?

00:11:14.000 The bag went flying.

00:11:17.000 It's a funny video, man.

00:11:19.000 I know Eddie has it somewhere.

00:11:20.000 I'll probably text him after this and try to see if he can put it up on his Instagram or something.

00:11:25.000 Yeah, back then, man, we were training when it wasn't even popular.

00:11:30.000 You know, I used to see you in the gym all the time.

00:11:32.000 All the time, man.

00:11:32.000 Yeah.

00:11:33.000 And you were, just think about this.

00:11:36.000 Do you know it was 29 years ago, the last time you interviewed me?

00:11:41.000 Yeah, that's right.

00:11:42.000 29 years ago.

00:11:43.000 That after that Bob Costa show.

00:11:45.000 He took a week off and I guest hosted it for a week.

00:11:48.000 Yeah.

00:11:49.000 And at that time, you were already training with Maurice Smith.

00:11:52.000 Yes.

00:11:53.000 Maurice is one of the guests.

00:11:54.000 Right.

00:11:55.000 You're training because I ended up training with Maurice Smith, you know, every time I'd go to Seattle, you know, we'd train together.

00:12:01.000 So, you know, we're like part of this like kind of karate martial art nerd culture when it wasn't even popular.

00:12:09.000 No, I used to see you all the time.

00:12:11.000 You know, you and you and you know, doing jiu-jitsu, Carl Parisian, and all these guys at legends.

00:12:17.000 Well, there was another place.

00:12:18.000 It was, we had there was legends, and it was another place.

00:12:21.000 The bomb squad, yes, the bomb squad was the first place that Eddie taught out, and then that place closed down.

00:12:26.000 Then we went to Legends, yeah, and then we moved to the other Legends that was like in more East LA.

00:12:34.000 And then Eddie started opening up his own place in downtown.

00:12:37.000 Yeah, yeah, and that's where I would train with Josh Barnett at that place for quite a bit.

00:12:43.000 Yeah, yeah, man.

00:12:44.000 Old days, yes, man, yeah.

00:12:47.000 And who's who would be coming through the gym?

00:12:49.000 Because I was training, I was training Bob Sapp at one time, and then I, that's how I got Frankie Lyles connected into that.

00:12:57.000 Wow.

00:12:58.000 Wow.

00:12:59.000 And so I remember Frankie.

00:13:00.000 Frankie used to be at the bomb squad first.

00:13:02.000 Right, yeah.

00:13:03.000 Frankie was like my best friend in the world.

00:13:05.000 And he was, you know, you're a super middleweight champion in the world.

00:13:08.000 That's who got me deeply into boxing.

00:13:11.000 And so I would always be at his training camps.

00:13:13.000 And, you know, I got to train with like Tommy Hearns and all these amazing people like Sugar Ray and all these guys, man.

00:13:23.000 Frankie's a great boxing coach.

00:13:25.000 He's one of the most technical.

00:13:25.000 Yeah.

00:13:27.000 He's one of the most technical guys I've ever worked with.

00:13:29.000 Like he analyzes every aspect of your jab.

00:13:32.000 He's pulling in your elbow.

00:13:33.000 He's tightening this.

00:13:35.000 He's moving you here.

00:13:36.000 He's like, like, he's showing all the various basic little tiny details that make all the difference in the world.

00:13:43.000 Yeah, man.

00:13:44.000 He was my personal boxing coach.

00:13:49.000 I would train with him, Joe Gusen, early on.

00:13:55.000 But Frankie, I mean, we really kind of combined a lot of things because I started kind of teaching him things with the jab, like the untelegraph type of stuff.

00:14:07.000 And he started applying that.

00:14:09.000 And he would bring me into stuff and have me show people like Sugar Ray, like, Mike, explain this jab.

00:14:17.000 And I'm like, what?

00:14:17.000 I'm explaining this to Sugar Ray.

00:14:19.000 This feels ridiculous, right?

00:14:21.000 But it was like this combination because, like, I don't know, I'm very analytical and I love technique, you know?

00:14:31.000 And so I would just try to break things down.

00:14:34.000 And my whole thing was always to pressure test things.

00:14:37.000 You know, so if I could develop a tool or a skill and I, and you can't stop it, even if I tell you what I'm doing, then it's a really good technique.

00:14:48.000 Then it's then it's legit.

00:14:50.000 The thing about no telegraph at all, it's so much more effective than a harder strike with a telegraph.

00:14:57.000 Oh, God, yeah.

00:14:58.000 Because it lands.

00:14:59.000 Yeah.

00:14:59.000 But it's so difficult to teach people that because everybody wants to hit everybody as hard as they can.

00:15:03.000 Especially if you have power.

00:15:03.000 Yeah.

00:15:05.000 Your instinct is to fucking load up on everything.

00:15:09.000 I remember I first saw you teaching that to Kimbo Slice.

00:15:11.000 Oh, yeah.

00:15:12.000 Yeah.

00:15:12.000 You were on a movie set.

00:15:13.000 Yeah, yeah, because Kimbo, oh man, what a great guy, man.

00:15:17.000 What a great guy.

00:15:18.000 What a wonderful guy.

00:15:19.000 So that's one thing about fighting.

00:15:21.000 You can't hide your nature.

00:15:23.000 You know what I mean?

00:15:24.000 People see who you are.

00:15:25.000 And he was a wonderful human being.

00:15:28.000 But like, but like a lot of people, like almost like street basketball, as opposed to professional, you miss out on certain techniques that you need when you're trying to step up.

00:15:43.000 Right.

00:15:43.000 And so, like, well, Kimbo, you know, he would, like a lot of people, he would kind of telegraph.

00:15:49.000 And so when we were shooting the movie, You know, and I basically, we had a cameraman that did not really know how to shoot stuff.

00:15:59.000 So I just had to do everything on screen.

00:16:02.000 And so I would, I would, I just wanted to make everything very realistic.

00:16:07.000 And so Kimbo had this rubber knife.

00:16:10.000 And I was like, try your best to touch me with the rubber knife.

00:16:15.000 And so he would try, but before, but as soon as he would move, there'd be a little bit of an indication that I'd see.

00:16:23.000 And then I throw the punch and it would go really close to him and I have him react to that.

00:16:28.000 But he was going, wait a minute, how are you hitting me before I can get this knife out?

00:16:33.000 And then I told him, you know, I'll show you what that is later.

00:16:37.000 Because, you know, kind of like not to be real nerdish about it, but like, why are like 50 and 60 year old trainers meeting people's hands, like a 20-year-old guy's or contender's hands, like this?

00:16:52.000 You see the person with the pad moving just as much as the other guy because there's an indication they do this beforehand.

00:17:01.000 They're always kind of flexing and going in reverse before they go forward.

00:17:07.000 So just for over years, I wouldn't do that and I would exploit that.

00:17:14.000 You know, so it's kind of like a cheat code that I'm like, hell, what the hell am I going to do with it?

00:17:19.000 I'm an actor.

00:17:21.000 So my thing is, just like yourself, when I see you, you know, with George St. Pierre and how we are always in the gym, we're, you know, we're kind of collaborating.

00:17:33.000 It's about just getting better.

00:17:35.000 No ego or anything else like that.

00:17:37.000 It's just like, hey, man, we're like kind of, you know, kind of like jamming on technique and getting better.

00:17:44.000 Well, especially to someone who has a different style to do because there's always something in different styles that you could take out of it.

00:17:51.000 Absolutely.

00:17:52.000 There's always something.

00:17:53.000 And we're seeing that now.

00:17:54.000 There's all these different martial artists that are entering into MMA that have these different techniques that people haven't seen before.

00:18:02.000 And there's a lot of them that people dismiss that you're finding are very effective, especially if you don't know how to do them.

00:18:08.000 You don't know what they are.

00:18:10.000 So you don't, you have like a database in your mind of movements.

00:18:14.000 Like I'm sure you see when a guy's loading up on a spin.

00:18:17.000 Oh, yeah.

00:18:18.000 Everybody sees that.

00:18:18.000 But if you don't know that, you don't see it.

00:18:20.000 Right.

00:18:21.000 And if you, if you're loading up, then you're not going to, you're not going to capitalize on it.

00:18:27.000 Right.

00:18:27.000 Because you don't, you know, you're taking a, there's a millisecond that you're taking because your movement is not efficient.

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00:19:15.000 There's a move that still to this day people aren't doing effectively when someone loads up because you can see the load up and it's just a jam.

00:19:23.000 It's just lifting your foot up and putting it on the hips.

00:19:26.000 And it's super effective in Taekwondo because everybody's fast.

00:19:29.000 Everybody's trying to do that technique.

00:19:31.000 But that jam of just lifting your foot up and just not trying to hit them hard, just putting that foot on the hip, it fucks people up.

00:19:38.000 And I don't see anybody using that right now.

00:19:40.000 I tell you, man, like, I don't, like, as in life, there's always something that you can gain from the, you know, people want to, I don't know, people are in their own egos a lot of times.

00:19:51.000 But like even Wu Shu, me is hard as hell for me doing Wu Shu against guys half my size.

00:19:58.000 It's not against, but it's a performance thing.

00:20:02.000 Right.

00:20:02.000 But if I can do all of it, can go to these very hard techniques of like, I got to get down to the floor and I got to and body mastery.

00:20:16.000 Yeah, at my size.

00:20:17.000 Right.

00:20:18.000 Well, then I'm better.

00:20:19.000 So if I want to kick you in the eyebrow, I can.

00:20:22.000 Because it's about, you know, having my body do what my mind's telling it to.

00:20:22.000 Right.

00:20:28.000 And so, but of course people want to dismiss it because, oh, that ain't real.

00:20:28.000 Right.

00:20:32.000 You can't use it.

00:20:33.000 Yeah, good.

00:20:34.000 Yeah.

00:20:34.000 Just like ballet is hard as hell.

00:20:36.000 You can't use that either.

00:20:37.000 But anybody, any heavyweight who put themselves through ballet would be a better fighter.

00:20:44.000 100%.

00:20:44.000 Look at Lomachenko.

00:20:46.000 His dad taught him Ukrainian dance.

00:20:46.000 Yeah.

00:20:48.000 Lomachenko's dad pulled him out of boxing for two years when he was young.

00:20:52.000 And said, you're just going to do Ukrainian dance.

00:20:52.000 Yeah.

00:20:54.000 Yeah.

00:20:55.000 It's like, what the fuck am I doing?

00:20:56.000 But look at that guy's footwork.

00:20:58.000 Exactly.

00:20:59.000 And so it's just as in life, man.

00:21:02.000 I don't look at anything from one group and just discard any other stuff.

00:21:07.000 I used to when I was young.

00:21:08.000 Yeah.

00:21:09.000 When I was young, I was pretty arrogant about certain things.

00:21:11.000 I thought forms were stupid.

00:21:12.000 All I wanted to do was spar and hit the bag.

00:21:15.000 Then as I got older, I realized, oh, there's a lot of wisdom in all this stuff.

00:21:18.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:21:19.000 But yeah, but that's like I say, I try to apply that to life, period.

00:21:24.000 You know, I never look at anything from one perspective.

00:21:27.000 I mean, I grew up in the hood and I'm, you know, my favorite band is freaking, you know, the Eagles.

00:21:34.000 Really?

00:21:34.000 And, yeah, I mean, like, you know, and I'm listening to Jody Mitchell and all that, and people are like, what are you doing listening?

00:21:41.000 I'm like, what the fuck?

00:21:42.000 You know, this is my life, man.

00:21:44.000 Fuck you.

00:21:45.000 Like, do you, you hear these lyrics?

00:21:47.000 You hear Jody Mitchell's lyrics, man?

00:21:50.000 What the fuck?

00:21:50.000 That's all for me, too.

00:21:52.000 I mean, I'm just as passionate about, you know, Errol Smith as I am about the Isley brothers.

00:21:58.000 But I've never looked at life as I have to think in this parameter.

00:22:06.000 You know, I've got to be marginalized.

00:22:08.000 That's just, man, come on.

00:22:09.000 It's such a waste of life.

00:22:11.000 It's all for you, man.

00:22:11.000 It is.

00:22:13.000 So with the martial arts and everything else, I look at every martial art just like everything else.

00:22:19.000 Everything has something to contribute.

00:22:21.000 Just like all people have something to contribute.

00:22:24.000 Even an idiot, you can learn from an idiot.

00:22:27.000 You can.

00:22:28.000 A lot of idiots say wise things occasionally.

00:22:30.000 Yeah, because everybody's going to have a quotient of legitimacy.

00:22:38.000 It may be 20% as a thing and they don't see the 80%.

00:22:42.000 But until you acknowledge that 20%, they're not going to hear you.

00:22:45.000 You know what I mean?

00:22:46.000 So that's the thing.

00:22:47.000 It's like, man, we're on this planet.

00:22:49.000 And one of the things that, man, I don't envy a whole lot of people, but I do envy you because you get to expand your world.

00:22:58.000 You talk to so many interesting people.

00:23:00.000 And that's what a great thing.

00:23:04.000 What a great thing to just have all these type of perspectives and all that coming through.

00:23:10.000 And I got to say, man, I'm super proud of you because I know you as Joe from the gym and look what you've done, man.

00:23:16.000 Man, it's like that, that's a shot in the army because it's like people that you like and seeing them prosper, that's cool as shit.

00:23:16.000 Thank you.

00:23:24.000 Yeah, I've learned a lot, man.

00:23:25.000 And I didn't expect to.

00:23:28.000 When we first started doing this, it was just for fun.

00:23:30.000 We just get together with our friends.

00:23:32.000 You knew what you wanted to do, man.

00:23:33.000 You were pretty damn clear.

00:23:35.000 Do you remember this?

00:23:36.000 You remember me coming to, I think it was the Ice House?

00:23:39.000 In Pasadena?

00:23:41.000 No, no, no.

00:23:42.000 Oh, shoot.

00:23:42.000 It wasn't Ice House.

00:23:44.000 It was in Orange County.

00:23:47.000 I came to see you perform, and I offered you the role in Blood and Bone.

00:23:54.000 Do you remember that at all?

00:23:55.000 I do.

00:23:56.000 Yeah, yeah, I do now.

00:23:57.000 Yeah.

00:23:58.000 Because Blood and Bone, which is like actually Sony's most successful non-theatrical, that was basically a kind of a reimagining of hard times with Charles Bronson and James Colburn.

00:23:58.000 Okay.

00:24:16.000 Great movie.

00:24:17.000 Yes.

00:24:17.000 Well, that role was basically that I was offering you was the James Colburn role.

00:24:22.000 Right?

00:24:23.000 But you were so, you were dead set.

00:24:26.000 And you just said, I don't want to do this acting stuff.

00:24:28.000 I want to do, I want to focus on what I, you know, your interest, which was, you know, you stand up and you're getting together.

00:24:36.000 I mean, I know you and Eddie were doing like kind of the early podcast type of stuff and whatever.

00:24:42.000 And I'm like, man, you know, you really kind of knew what you wanted to do.

00:24:46.000 Well, the thing about acting is, I mean, I admire it, especially good acting.

00:24:50.000 Yeah.

00:24:51.000 But it takes a lot of time out of your day.

00:24:53.000 It's a 16-hour day.

00:24:55.000 It's a long day.

00:24:56.000 And it will take away from other things you do.

00:25:00.000 And I saw that with a lot of comics that they started doing acting, and it would take away from their act because they really couldn't go and do sets every night.

00:25:08.000 They couldn't really polish their material.

00:25:10.000 You could see stuff getting a little clunkier.

00:25:13.000 And it's just, you got to focus.

00:25:15.000 You got to find the things you enjoy and focus on them.

00:25:18.000 Yeah, that's why I say I'm so proud of just being there and seeing what you did.

00:25:24.000 You being a part of the UFC when it was nothing promised.

00:25:28.000 You know what I mean?

00:25:30.000 Not only was it not promised, man.

00:25:31.000 People looked at you like you were doing like snuff films or something.

00:25:34.000 Exactly.

00:25:35.000 They looked at you, like, I remember the early days, man.

00:25:38.000 Dana White always says this, people would talk to you like you were doing porn or something.

00:25:41.000 Right, right.

00:25:42.000 Like, I was on news radio, the sitcom on NBC, and I was doing commentary where I was doing post-fight interviews for the UFC.

00:25:49.000 And they were like, why are you doing this?

00:25:50.000 Why are you flying to Alabama and doing cage fights?

00:25:54.000 See, this is what movies are.

00:25:56.000 Good movies are made of shit like this.

00:25:58.000 You know what I mean?

00:25:58.000 Somebody just on, or just out of their spirit, doing what they want to do with no promise of anything and then accomplishing something.

00:26:08.000 So, you know, kudos, man.

00:26:10.000 Seriously, man.

00:26:10.000 Oh, thank you.

00:26:11.000 Well, for me, and I'm sure for you as well, when we were young, there was always a question, what is the best style?

00:26:16.000 Is it Kyokushin?

00:26:18.000 Is it Judo?

00:26:19.000 Is it Kung Fu?

00:26:20.000 What is it?

00:26:21.000 What's the best style?

00:26:22.000 And no one really knew.

00:26:23.000 I mean, Benny the Jet fought in a bunch of those no rules fights early on, but they never really took off.

00:26:30.000 There wasn't a lot of those.

00:26:31.000 And Benny was obviously a very special fighter.

00:26:34.000 Oh, yeah.

00:26:35.000 Yeah, he was one of my teachers, too.

00:26:36.000 Oh, yeah.

00:26:37.000 I trained at his gym.

00:26:39.000 He was on the podcast with Blinky, Blinky Rodriguez.

00:26:41.000 Right here.

00:26:42.000 Recently.

00:26:42.000 Yeah.

00:26:43.000 And I told them, I said, when I came to LA, there was two places I had to go.

00:26:46.000 I had to go to the comedy store, and I had to go to the Jet Center.

00:26:48.000 I had to go to the Jet Center.

00:26:50.000 And I was there in 94 right before it went under because the earthquake damaged their roof.

00:26:56.000 So when the rainy season came, it was on Friar Street.

00:26:56.000 Exactly.

00:26:59.000 Yep, right down from the Goosens.

00:27:01.000 Yep.

00:27:02.000 Yeah, right down.

00:27:03.000 Yeah.

00:27:04.000 And that was an honor, man, to be able to train in that gym.

00:27:07.000 That was incredible.

00:27:08.000 It was incredible.

00:27:09.000 Oh, yeah.

00:27:09.000 Yeah.

00:27:10.000 I used to be there.

00:27:11.000 Yeah, man.

00:27:11.000 Yeah.

00:27:12.000 Yeah, those are some great times because, I mean, I connect with Benny because when I was in Bridgeport, my instructor, Manny Malisi, went to California and started training with Benny.

00:27:25.000 Oh, wow.

00:27:26.000 Early on.

00:27:26.000 So he put that on the map about coming to the Mecca and training with Benny.

00:27:31.000 It was the Mecca.

00:27:32.000 For kickboxing, especially in the 90s, that was the Mecca.

00:27:35.000 You had to go to the Jet Center.

00:27:36.000 Everyone was talking to the Jet Center.

00:27:38.000 Yeah, man.

00:27:38.000 That was class.

00:27:40.000 We were always wondering, like, what is the style?

00:27:42.000 What's the best style?

00:27:43.000 And then the UFC came along.

00:27:45.000 I'm like, oh, my God, they did it.

00:27:47.000 They did it.

00:27:47.000 They figured it out.

00:27:48.000 They put it all together.

00:27:49.000 And for a while, it was Jiu-Jitsu because nobody understood Jiu-Jitsu.

00:27:52.000 And Hoyce Gracie was just running shit. 1.00

00:27:54.000 Well, you know, you know how that was kind of set up a little bit.

00:27:58.000 It was a little set up.

00:27:59.000 But I mean, look, he had some challenges.

00:28:01.000 Like, Ken Shamrock was a beast.

00:28:03.000 Oh, yeah.

00:28:03.000 He has some really good fighters he was facing against.

00:28:05.000 Kimbo Slice.

00:28:06.000 I mean, excuse me, not Kimbo Slice.

00:28:08.000 Not Kimo.

00:28:09.000 Kimo.

00:28:09.000 Sorry.

00:28:10.000 Kimo was fucking huge.

00:28:12.000 He was a big dude, but he didn't really.

00:28:15.000 He was a hundred-pound advantage.

00:28:18.000 He had 100 pounds over Hoist.

00:28:20.000 The Gracies were smart.

00:28:22.000 They were very smart at that time.

00:28:24.000 Knowing the right people to kind of pick at that time.

00:28:27.000 Because, you know, there were some killers out there.

00:28:30.000 There were some killers out there.

00:28:31.000 Yeah, they definitely set it up, especially the early ones.

00:28:34.000 But it's also, it's like, you know, it was good for us to see a guy like Hoyce who wasn't jacked.

00:28:42.000 He was a slender guy.

00:28:44.000 He weighed 175 pounds and he was strangling everybody, arm barring everybody.

00:28:49.000 It was wild to see.

00:28:50.000 When he beat Dan Severin, Dan Severin was 260 pounds, and Hoist tapped him off his back with a triangle.

00:28:56.000 Man, what a story.

00:28:58.000 That put Jiu-Jitsu on the map.

00:29:00.000 On the map big time.

00:29:01.000 But, you know, one thing that always broke my heart is people never knew about Hickson.

00:29:06.000 Right.

00:29:06.000 Oh, my God.

00:29:07.000 No.

00:29:08.000 That dude.

00:29:09.000 Yeah.

00:29:10.000 That cat was like, I always considered him like, pound for pound, the best, because he he, now he had this.

00:29:18.000 Not only you know jiu-jitsu skills, but just his concentration yeah, and he was almost, like you know hypnotic right, you know what I mean the way.

00:29:28.000 And just no waste of energy none, just unbelievable.

00:29:32.000 What an amazing person to watch is.

00:29:34.000 You know, I encourage anybody to pull up his, his fights.

00:29:37.000 Well, he did.

00:29:38.000 Another great example of Goliath stuff.

00:29:40.000 Oh yeah, another great example of cross training too, because Hickson got really into yoga and everybody's like, what the fuck are you doing yoga?

00:29:46.000 Like yoga's for girls, right?

00:29:48.000 Hickson got really into yoga and got super flexible and suit and really good at controlling his breathing.

00:29:55.000 Oh yeah yeah, and never got tired.

00:29:58.000 Yeah, you saw him in that, in the Hulk.

00:30:00.000 Oh yeah yeah yeah man, it's something, man that that's talk about a legend oh, real legend yeah yeah, man.

00:30:08.000 Well Hickson, there's a video of him and he did this multiple times where he would go to these gyms and he would um, teach a seminar, like a long seminar, and then roll with all the black belts yeah, and just tap them one after the other. 0.84

00:30:22.000 One world champions, guys that just didn't understand what was going on, like how is this happening?

00:30:28.000 Oh yeah, like Paul Ophelio, when he was a WC world champion and he was uh, he had won the Mundials.

00:30:36.000 I believe he'd won multiple jiu-jitsu championships and he he trained with Hickson and he's like man, it's true, because I can't believe it he goes.

00:30:44.000 That guy treated me like I didn't even belong in there.

00:30:46.000 It was crazy, and Hickson by that time was probably like 40.

00:30:51.000 yeah you know and it's still just dominating guys on the map and effortless it wasn't strength it was it was just pure technique and basics and Just mastering of basics.

00:31:02.000 Oh, yeah.

00:31:03.000 Basics.

00:31:04.000 It was like, there's none of the, no barimbolos, no X-Guard, nothing crazy.

00:31:09.000 Everything he did is like Jiu-Jitsu 101, but to a masterful, masterful degree.

00:31:17.000 Yeah.

00:31:18.000 And telling people that, you know, because everybody knows Hoist, and I'm like, you guys don't know who his big brother is.

00:31:18.000 Incredible.

00:31:25.000 His brother.

00:31:26.000 He would openly say that my brother is 10 times better than that.

00:31:29.000 Yeah.

00:31:29.000 Right.

00:31:29.000 Yeah.

00:31:30.000 So, you know, that's that really put, and I love jiu-jitsu because it, it's, it's, it's held up the tradition that martial arts, someone's karate lost because it became a business.

00:31:43.000 And people would just, you know, put their time in and pay for their black belts. 0.94

00:31:47.000 Right.

00:31:48.000 And it just watered it down.

00:31:49.000 Right.

00:31:50.000 All these people running around saying that they're master this and you know, a grand whatever and all these made-up things.

00:31:57.000 It's like, oh, yeah, the guy's a master in a in an Asian martial art.

00:32:02.000 That's that's an that's an English word.

00:32:05.000 You know what I mean?

00:32:05.000 Right.

00:32:06.000 How did master sneak its way into it?

00:32:09.000 Yeah, but anyway, but you know, male ego.

00:32:12.000 You know, well, the thing about martial arts other than jiu-jitsu is when you're sparring, it's very controlled.

00:32:18.000 Like a lot of karate sparring is very controlled.

00:32:21.000 A lot of Taekwondo sparring is very controlled.

00:32:23.000 But in jiu-jitsu, the beautiful thing about grappling is you know how good everybody is because they all spar.

00:32:30.000 They're all rolling with each other and they essentially go in full blast until the tap.

00:32:35.000 And so there's no hiding.

00:32:37.000 There's no hiding your skill.

00:32:39.000 Yeah, I love what Eddie Bravo used to say.

00:32:41.000 Basically, when you won, I killed you.

00:32:43.000 Yeah.

00:32:44.000 Yeah.

00:32:45.000 I just killed you.

00:32:46.000 You know, so that's like, wow, that's it.

00:32:46.000 Yeah.

00:32:48.000 That's a trip because it's like, it actually works out that way.

00:32:52.000 Oh, yeah.

00:32:52.000 If he gets you in a triangle and you tap, it's because you were about to go to sleep.

00:32:57.000 And once you're sleepy, you just stomp your head into a pancake.

00:32:57.000 Yes.

00:32:59.000 Yeah.

00:33:00.000 You're done.

00:33:00.000 Yeah.

00:33:01.000 You just hold on to that triangle and then you never wake up.

00:33:01.000 Yeah.

00:33:03.000 Yeah, what a humbling thing.

00:33:05.000 Yeah.

00:33:06.000 Very humbling.

00:33:07.000 Yeah.

00:33:07.000 And what's really humbling is how quickly someone could do it to you when you don't know what you're doing.

00:33:12.000 Like that was shocking to me because I had all this martial arts experience and I first started training.

00:33:17.000 I was like, what's someone going to do to me?

00:33:19.000 I wrestled in high school.

00:33:20.000 I'm strong.

00:33:21.000 I'm fast.

00:33:22.000 I know how to fight.

00:33:23.000 I just got manhandled over and over and over again.

00:33:26.000 Oh, yeah.

00:33:27.000 This is ridiculous.

00:33:28.000 See, but kudos because a lot of people, because of if you got an egotistical thing going and you get that your little, I don't know, your comfort because you got your black belt and all that kind of stuff.

00:33:28.000 Yeah.

00:33:43.000 That means jack nothing. 0.66

00:33:45.000 You know, to everybody I know who continues and really to learn real fighting knows when you had a boxer beat the hell out you and you go, oh wait, there's a lot of this stuff I got to toss out the window.

00:33:59.000 And because I mean, I never forget like times where a wrestler gets to me or a boxer like pieces me up like early on.

00:33:59.000 Yeah.

00:34:08.000 I'm like, no, I got to learn this.

00:34:11.000 Yeah.

00:34:11.000 Oh, yeah.

00:34:11.000 Yeah.

00:34:12.000 I went through several of those.

00:34:14.000 I went through one of them in high school because I had a friend in high school that was a wrestler and I didn't think anything of wrestling.

00:34:21.000 I'm like, that's not even a martial art.

00:34:23.000 And then we wrestled on the grass one day and he just took me down at will.

00:34:27.000 And I was like, this is ridiculous.

00:34:29.000 He was pinning me down.

00:34:30.000 I couldn't move.

00:34:31.000 I couldn't get up.

00:34:31.000 I'm like, this is stunning.

00:34:34.000 I thought I'm strong.

00:34:36.000 I thought I could move.

00:34:37.000 I thought I'll be able to get out of the way.

00:34:39.000 No, not.

00:34:40.000 I had no chance.

00:34:42.000 And he wasn't even a great wrestler.

00:34:43.000 He was just a decent wrestler.

00:34:45.000 And he just humbled me over and over and over again.

00:34:47.000 So then I started wrestling.

00:34:49.000 And then when I got into Taekwondo, I thought I'm really good at Taekwondo.

00:34:53.000 I was competing on a national level.

00:34:54.000 I won the state championships four years in a row.

00:34:57.000 I was fucking people up.

00:34:58.000 And then I remember the first time I boxed with a really good amateur boxer, I was like, oh, Lord.

00:35:05.000 And this kid was like 18 years old.

00:35:08.000 And he went on as a kid, his name is Dana Rosenblatt.

00:35:11.000 He went on to become New England middleweight champion.

00:35:14.000 He beat Vinny Pazianza.

00:35:16.000 Oh, shit.

00:35:17.000 He beat Howard Davis Jr. as a professional.

00:35:19.000 He was a really good boxer.

00:35:20.000 Well, yeah, he had to be.

00:35:22.000 But he was kickboxing at the time.

00:35:24.000 And I was going to get into kickboxing.

00:35:26.000 And so I was sparring with him.

00:35:27.000 But when I was boxing with him, I was just getting lit up.

00:35:30.000 I was like, oh, and then also when we were kickboxing, the moment he got close to me, I was in trouble.

00:35:36.000 I was like, oh, no.

00:35:37.000 Like, Taekwondo had too many flaws.

00:35:39.000 The hand techniques.

00:35:39.000 Exactly.

00:35:40.000 So I had gone through that.

00:35:42.000 And so then I thought, okay, well, now I understand kickboxing.

00:35:45.000 Then I met a dude who went to Thailand a bunch of times and was training Muay Thai and fighting over there.

00:35:50.000 And then I started learning leg kicks.

00:35:51.000 I'm like, well, oh, good Lord.

00:35:53.000 Now all they have to do is kick my legs. 0.93

00:35:55.000 I didn't even think of that.

00:35:57.000 And then I started really paying attention to WKA fights, like the old Dennis Alexio days with Don the Dragon Wilson.

00:36:04.000 And I was like, leg kicks.

00:36:06.000 Leg kicks are everything.

00:36:07.000 Oh, my goodness.

00:36:08.000 And then I'm like, okay, well, now I got a solid foundation.

00:36:11.000 I understand how to fight.

00:36:12.000 And then I started getting jiu-jitsu.

00:36:13.000 Like, oh, no.

00:36:15.000 Back to square one.

00:36:17.000 I'm getting raped.

00:36:18.000 I was just getting mauled on the mats.

00:36:21.000 But I'd been through that so many times and restarted so many times.

00:36:25.000 I was like, well, it's time to learn this now.

00:36:28.000 Yeah, that's what I'm saying is everything has something to teach you.

00:36:32.000 Yeah.

00:36:33.000 And, you know, even though there's that, this is a martial art.

00:36:36.000 There's a fantasy world, which is, I look at it as hilarious.

00:36:39.000 You know, there's this, you know, I don't know.

00:36:44.000 Sometimes I would say it like this.

00:36:47.000 Like, with martial arts, the Dundee Kruger effect in the largest way possible because everybody out there has an opinion of martial arts, though very few people really know what it is.

00:37:00.000 You know, they want to look at the movies and everything, and they really want to believe that.

00:37:05.000 They want to believe that this guy who kicks in the air and all that kind of stuff will be able to beat a champion.

00:37:13.000 And in a way, hey, I benefit from that to some degree because they think that about me.

00:37:20.000 But even though I'm comfortable fighting and I love to, I mean, I just love fighting against anybody.

00:37:29.000 But you've had actual competition experience, like a lot of competitions.

00:37:32.000 Yeah, but my best experiences is with like, I got a chance to train against champions at their place.

00:37:42.000 You know, when they're at their best.

00:37:44.000 And it's not an ego thing.

00:37:45.000 It's just like, I love to be able to test myself.

00:37:50.000 And I mean, because I'm my biggest competition.

00:37:53.000 And so that whole thing about just what the bow means to me is like, thank you for making me better by providing me an obstacle.

00:38:04.000 And the higher the, you know, the better the person, the better I can become.

00:38:09.000 100%.

00:38:10.000 And so I loved it.

00:38:11.000 So I, you know, for years I'm in there with Gokan Saki and, you know, Maury Smiths and, you know, who, you know, you name it.

00:38:23.000 I've gotten, I consider myself one of the luckiest martial artists on the planet because I get to train with so many people.

00:38:31.000 Sometimes, you know, at my house and, you know, I've got all these, you know, former champions training.

00:38:37.000 And, you know, Rampage when he was champion, I go to his place.

00:38:40.000 And, you know, and honestly, like, the things I brag about is when I get humbled, you know, because that's when I learn something.

00:38:49.000 For sure.

00:38:50.000 My philosophy is I love to be wrong because every time I'm wrong, I learn something.

00:38:54.000 Absolutely.

00:38:54.000 And so, like, some of the best times for me is like, I know when I was, you know, Michael Bisbing was getting ready to fight George St. Pierre, and we were in Thailand.

00:39:06.000 I was like, yeah, you know, let's mix it up.

00:39:09.000 What were you doing in Thailand?

00:39:10.000 We were doing a movie out there.

00:39:11.000 Oh, wow.

00:39:12.000 But he had to train.

00:39:13.000 He was getting ready for the George St. Pierre fight.

00:39:17.000 And so, you know, I was like, yeah, let's do some rounds or whatever.

00:39:20.000 And I got so winded the second round.

00:39:26.000 I'm like, dude, just whoop my ass.

00:39:28.000 I feel so like, I'm embarrassed.

00:39:33.000 Bisbing was a cardio machine.

00:39:34.000 Yes, he was.

00:39:35.000 He was a cardio machine.

00:39:36.000 I didn't expect that because we spent all day on a yacht the day before and he was drinking nonstop.

00:39:45.000 I'm a non-drinker, right?

00:39:46.000 I'm like, this guy's going to, you know, I'm going to probably take it easy on him today.

00:39:51.000 He is one of the toughest motherfuckers that ever fought in the sport.

00:39:55.000 I swear.

00:39:56.000 This is what I say about him.

00:39:57.000 No matter what you think about watching his fights, you have to understand, not only did he accomplish so much, he accomplished a lot of it with one eye.

00:40:07.000 One fucking eye.

00:40:08.000 He had 11 fights in the UFC with a winning record with one eye.

00:40:13.000 Yeah.

00:40:14.000 Crazy.

00:40:15.000 Yeah, that, that's, man.

00:40:15.000 Yes.

00:40:17.000 He would memorize the eye chart so that when they covered his eye, he could sight it out like he could read it.

00:40:26.000 Yeah.

00:40:26.000 Oh, yeah.

00:40:27.000 How fucking crazy is that?

00:40:29.000 He's got a hell of a personal story, too.

00:40:31.000 I was trying to encourage him to get that made.

00:40:34.000 You know, like, honestly, man, I really look at these UFC fighters and the MMA guys as our modern-day heroes.

00:40:45.000 They're our gladiators.

00:40:46.000 And so whenever I have a chance, man, I always like to put them in movies and try to expose them to another kind of way of getting paid.

00:40:58.000 Especially afterwards, because it breaks my heart that they're heroes and then they get discarded sometimes by not by the union that they're with, but just by the fans.

00:40:58.000 Yeah.

00:41:11.000 They're so fickle sometimes.

00:41:12.000 Yes.

00:41:13.000 Well, the casuals, the people that aren't really martial artists.

00:41:17.000 So, you know, I just miss a guy when they lose a few.

00:41:17.000 Right, yeah.

00:41:20.000 Yeah, I just did my third movie with Cowboy Saroti.

00:41:24.000 You know, we just finished a little over a week ago.

00:41:27.000 Oh, that's awesome.

00:41:28.000 Yeah, he's doing really good, man.

00:41:30.000 Yeah, yeah, me too.

00:41:30.000 I love that.

00:41:31.000 That's a guy that could really legitimately transition to become a movie star.

00:41:34.000 Yes, yes.

00:41:35.000 And he's got a lot more confidence.

00:41:37.000 Like I said, the third movie, he did a Western with me.

00:41:42.000 Outlaw Johnny Black, I wrote and directed it.

00:41:46.000 But I had Cowboy.

00:41:49.000 I had Randy Couture in it.

00:41:51.000 Oh, wow.

00:41:52.000 And then Josh Barnett.

00:41:53.000 Randy's done an amazing job of transitioning.

00:41:55.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:41:56.000 The expendables, you know, and he's great at it.

00:41:59.000 Yeah.

00:42:00.000 He has a great personality.

00:42:01.000 Absolutely.

00:42:02.000 Very calm.

00:42:04.000 Well, I remember one time he was fighting Tim Sylvia for the heavyweight title.

00:42:08.000 And he came out there.

00:42:09.000 He had a smile on his face.

00:42:10.000 He looked over at me and he winked.

00:42:12.000 I'm like, how is this motherfucker so relaxed before he's fight?

00:42:16.000 But he had an amazing perspective.

00:42:19.000 He said to me, the people who love you will love you whether you win or lose.

00:42:25.000 And he said, what's the worst thing that can happen?

00:42:27.000 You lose.

00:42:27.000 He goes, you've lost before.

00:42:29.000 It's no big deal.

00:42:30.000 You remember him spanking Tito?

00:42:32.000 Yeah, he got on top of his spanking out of death. 0.86

00:42:35.000 And he was an animal.

00:42:35.000 Yeah, man.

00:42:36.000 Yeah, well, when we, you know, he had that heart attack while he was shooting my movie.

00:42:40.000 That's crazy.

00:42:41.000 And then came back to set like nothing.

00:42:43.000 How did he have a fucking heart attack?

00:42:46.000 I don't remember how.

00:42:47.000 It was, and I think he drove himself to the hospital.

00:42:53.000 Yeah, man.

00:42:55.000 Talk about an American hero, man.

00:42:56.000 I mean, I was there for his first fight.

00:42:59.000 Yeah, 1997.

00:42:59.000 Really?

00:43:00.000 Yeah, I was there for his very first fight.

00:43:02.000 Oh, shoot.

00:43:03.000 He fought this huge jack dude, took him down, mounted him, beat the shit out of him. 1.00

00:43:07.000 It was like that was the time where wrestlers had first started cracking this code.

00:43:07.000 It was wild.

00:43:13.000 There was this code of there was a lot of people that thought like jiu-jitsu was the only way.

00:43:13.000 Right.

00:43:18.000 And then the elite wrestlers got in there. 1.00

00:43:19.000 Oh, God.

00:43:20.000 The Mark Kerr, the Mark Coleman, and then Randy, a bunch of these guys got in there.

00:43:25.000 And then they realized, like, if a guy could just take you down and beat the fuck out of you from the top, there's not a whole lot you could do about it.

00:43:31.000 And then we realized, like, boy, that is the corner.

00:43:31.000 Right.

00:43:34.000 That's the true cornerstone of martial arts.

00:43:36.000 The ability to take a guy down.

00:43:36.000 Yeah.

00:43:38.000 I mean, what's harder than wrestling?

00:43:38.000 My goodness.

00:43:40.000 I don't think there's any.

00:43:40.000 The hardest sport in the world.

00:43:42.000 The hardest sport in the world.

00:43:43.000 And the best sport in the world to get your kids into at a young age because the discipline and the mental toughness that they get will carry them through for the rest of their life.

00:43:52.000 Yep.

00:43:52.000 Tenacity, just the stick-to-itiveness, whatever you want to call it.

00:43:56.000 Yeah, that's just like even high school wrestling.

00:43:59.000 I remember wrestling in high school, and I had already done martial arts, but I was like, I'd never trained that hard.

00:44:04.000 I was like, I can't believe it.

00:44:05.000 And then it carried me over into my Taekwondo career because I realized, like, oh, I'm leaving a lot on the table.

00:44:11.000 Like, I'm not training like these guys are.

00:44:13.000 So I started running.

00:44:14.000 I started adding all these things to my training that I wasn't doing before.

00:44:17.000 I started doing a lot more calisthenics, a lot more different things.

00:44:20.000 I was like, I'm leaving something on the table because we were not training in the gym and we were sparring hard.

00:44:25.000 We were doing hard rounds.

00:44:26.000 You'd get tired, but it was not the same as what we were doing in wrestling.

00:44:30.000 No one trains harder than that.

00:44:31.000 Anaerobic stuff, man.

00:44:32.000 That's that's man.

00:44:35.000 I got the wrestling bug when I was in my senior in high school.

00:44:40.000 And the football coach was a wrestler in college.

00:44:45.000 And he challenged me.

00:44:49.000 I think we did this two years in a row, in my junior year and my senior year.

00:44:53.000 At the end of the year, we'd wrestle.

00:44:56.000 We'd just go like, you know, he and I. Like I said, I was big for my age.

00:45:01.000 Were you playing football?

00:45:03.000 I was for a very short time, but I ended up, I wasn't, I wasn't designed for team sports.

00:45:14.000 Me neither.

00:45:15.000 And I ended up beating up the football coach.

00:45:19.000 Oh, no.

00:45:20.000 Yeah, I had a dude.

00:45:22.000 Like, I had the worst temper than anybody I'd ever seen.

00:45:28.000 I mean, I used to go into fits of rage.

00:45:30.000 I was so angry early on, man.

00:45:33.000 It's like the Hulk is like, Mike, you should chill out a little bit, man.

00:45:37.000 Like, I was just.

00:45:38.000 It's probably from being on your own at 14.

00:45:41.000 Yeah, you know, what it is, is like, I was growing up in a very harsh environment.

00:45:46.000 And I didn't know I was an artist.

00:45:49.000 I didn't know I was a writer, director, whatever.

00:45:51.000 You know, they didn't, you didn't see those growing up where I am.

00:45:55.000 And so when you're a sensitive kid, man, what you do is you build armor.

00:45:55.000 Right.

00:45:59.000 Like, I was to play Mike Tyson later on, and I understood him quite well.

00:46:05.000 And if you're sensitive, you, you know, anything that's precious, you put it in, you lock it in a safe and you become the safe.

00:46:14.000 And it's, it's like, I grew up, my brothers were completely different.

00:46:19.000 They're engineers.

00:46:21.000 So things rolled off their back.

00:46:23.000 But like for me, just I was just volatile.

00:46:27.000 And luckily, I had martial arts to kind of folk put my focus into.

00:46:33.000 But like I said, like a like I was to play Mike Tyson.

00:46:36.000 I understood him a great deal.

00:46:39.000 And, you know, even though you take the moniker of this monster, it's only to hide what's really deep inside.

00:46:47.000 And that's why you would see if anybody's going to go into tears in front of a million people, it's people like Mike Tyson.

00:46:56.000 And you go, how does that fit in the same person?

00:46:59.000 Right.

00:47:00.000 And so that's what I was growing up.

00:47:02.000 And, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I was a school teacher before I was an actor.

00:47:07.000 Oh, really?

00:47:08.000 Yeah, I taught EMD.

00:47:09.000 I was a special ed teacher.

00:47:11.000 So I focused on a lot of kids who were very much like me.

00:47:14.000 And I still do that.

00:47:15.000 And the way I consider that my real job, whenever I'm off from work on a movie or whatever, I go into the inner cities.

00:47:22.000 I go into community centers.

00:47:24.000 I devote my time because there's nothing I could do.

00:47:28.000 There's no better spending of time than something like that.

00:47:32.000 Because I was luckily, luckily saved.

00:47:36.000 I had just at the right times in my life, just different seeds planted.

00:47:42.000 And so I'm confident that if those seeds were not planted, I would not be here.

00:47:47.000 Because, like I say, I was been through some crazy stuff.

00:47:52.000 It's a classic story.

00:47:53.000 Yeah, bro, man.

00:47:54.000 Like, I'll tell you, like, just a little under two years ago, a buddy of mine, it was a close friend of mine.

00:48:01.000 He got out of prison.

00:48:04.000 He was in prison for almost like 30 years.

00:48:06.000 And he found me on Facebook.

00:48:09.000 And so when I went back east, we linked up.

00:48:13.000 And, you know, I know a lot of people who have businesses and everything.

00:48:18.000 I hooked him up, you know, got him a job.

00:48:20.000 And we were sitting over lunch.

00:48:22.000 And in the middle of him telling me like a third or fourth story, like back in the glory days of us or whatever, while he was in the middle of this story, I was kind of getting myself set to kind of set him straight because I don't know if you want to call this superstitious, but I won't lie.

00:48:45.000 I refuse to lie to my friends.

00:48:48.000 I even, I won't lie by omission.

00:48:52.000 So I was getting set to tell him, dude, man, you got to stop embellishing these stories.

00:48:57.000 Just because you were locked up and you made these stories sound bigger than life.

00:49:04.000 I get it, but that's not real.

00:49:08.000 You got to really, you know, kind of not do that.

00:49:11.000 And in the middle of me thinking that, and I'm listening to him, I go, holy shit, he's telling the truth.

00:49:18.000 I started remembering what he was telling me.

00:49:21.000 And I'm like, now I'm finishing his sentences.

00:49:25.000 Not only was that story true, but the other ones were true too.

00:49:29.000 And dude, like, I swear, every time I think about this, I got these goosebumps.

00:49:34.000 And I realized, oh my God, how close I was to being where he was or just not being on this planet.

00:49:43.000 Right.

00:49:45.000 Like, I better devote my time into helping kids the way I was helped.

00:49:52.000 Yeah, don't pull that ladder up.

00:49:54.000 No, hell no.

00:49:55.000 Hell no.

00:49:56.000 Even if I'm taken out, I accept that.

00:50:00.000 Even if I'm in some projects where I'm not supposed to be and I shouldn't have been, I accept that because, dude, I am abundantly lucky.

00:50:14.000 Like, it doesn't even, it doesn't even fit on the radar how lucky I am.

00:50:19.000 And I could remember a lot of these crazy stories, you know, aside from the ones that he made me conjure back up.

00:50:27.000 But man, I'm like, wow.

00:50:29.000 Well, that speaks to your character that you had downplayed it all in your mind so much that you thought he was exaggerating.

00:50:36.000 I swept it under the rug.

00:50:37.000 Yeah.

00:50:38.000 Because you're not that person anymore.

00:50:40.000 No, no.

00:50:41.000 But I mean, but There was so much, there were so many events, things that would, I just call it on a Wednesday that I went through that it's like, I don't know, like, I think I wouldn't trade it because I continue to be the happiest guy I know because of, I think, some of that.

00:51:06.000 Because you can appreciate the good times.

00:51:07.000 Oh, my God.

00:51:08.000 Yeah.

00:51:09.000 And I should be slapped if I complain about anything.

00:51:13.000 Right.

00:51:14.000 Like, what?

00:51:14.000 You know what I mean?

00:51:16.000 And so, you know, so I just, boy, I just know I'm so blessed.

00:51:23.000 And, you know what, what we do, what we're doing even right now, man, we're in the service industry, man.

00:51:30.000 You know, you're here to serve.

00:51:32.000 In my opinion, that's what we're all here for.

00:51:36.000 And, you know, it's great that we get to serve and doing the things that we would like to do.

00:51:40.000 Just inspired us.

00:51:41.000 That's definitely a lot of what we do.

00:51:43.000 I mean, there's definitely a lot of it, right?

00:51:45.000 You entertain, but I feel very blessed that I've been able to expose people to so many different ways of thinking, so much information, so many different human beings that have led completely different paths that can tell you about whatever discipline they're involved in, what they've learned, and what we're working on right now, and what you can learn about the human mind, the body, ancient history, fill-in-the-link, like whatever it is.

00:52:11.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:52:12.000 And I see you do that over and over.

00:52:14.000 And utmost honesty, I remember like when you had to kind of pull Shaab aside and tell, as a friend, some things that are hard for people, you know, other friends to tell him.

00:52:27.000 You know, and like.

00:52:29.000 That was real hard.

00:52:30.000 Well, that was real hard because I love that guy.

00:52:30.000 Yeah.

00:52:33.000 He's a great person.

00:52:34.000 He's a great human being.

00:52:35.000 And I knew the path.

00:52:37.000 I'd seen it too many times, but I hadn't seen it with someone I was that close with.

00:52:41.000 I was like, you have to stop because not only that, you're in the heavyweight division, so the knockouts are brutal, and you're going to get three or four more in the next couple of years.

00:52:51.000 And then you're not going to recover from those.

00:52:53.000 Man, so many people, I hope they take a page out of that because it's so non-manly, I feel, to just not say anything.

00:53:04.000 Right.

00:53:04.000 And allow somebody you love to go down the road.

00:53:08.000 I mean, that might be detrimental for them.

00:53:11.000 Well, it was also Shaab had another path. 0.62

00:53:14.000 He was really good at podcasting.

00:53:15.000 He's fun.

00:53:16.000 He's a funny dude.

00:53:17.000 Yeah.

00:53:17.000 Right.

00:53:18.000 He's like, as a podcast, he's like, he's got a great personality.

00:53:21.000 He's hilarious.

00:53:21.000 He's silly.

00:53:23.000 He's a big, giant, silly dude.

00:53:25.000 And like, we would have so much fun.

00:53:26.000 And he was doing really well.

00:53:27.000 And he was making more money doing that than he was fighting.

00:53:29.000 But his identity was so wrapped up in him being a top 10 UFC heavyweight.

00:53:34.000 He had beat world-class guys like Merkle, Krokop.

00:53:37.000 And he was legit, man.

00:53:39.000 But that time had passed.

00:53:42.000 And I saw that he was one foot in and one foot out.

00:53:46.000 And as soon as the guy's one foot in, one foot out, you're going to run into some guy who has both feet in and is a fucking samurai.

00:53:53.000 And then you're going to wake up on a stretcher.

00:53:55.000 You're on the way to the hospital going, what happened?

00:53:57.000 And you don't remember the fight.

00:53:58.000 You don't remember nothing.

00:54:00.000 And then you don't know where your keys are.

00:54:03.000 You forget people's names.

00:54:05.000 You tell the same story over and over again.

00:54:07.000 And then you struggle to put sentences together.

00:54:09.000 When you start seeing dudes with the slurs.

00:54:11.000 Nothing's worth that, man.

00:54:12.000 Nothing's worth that.

00:54:14.000 Because you're, I mean, at the time, he's only 35 years old or whatever he was.

00:54:17.000 I'm like, man, you got another 45, 55 years of life.

00:54:21.000 You can't do this.

00:54:23.000 You can't sacrifice all these years for glory that will never be achieved anyway because you're not on that path anymore.

00:54:32.000 Yeah, and it's not about what strangers say about you.

00:54:35.000 It's about your friends, your family, people who really love you.

00:54:35.000 No.

00:54:39.000 It's just so hard for people to abandon that identity.

00:54:41.000 That's the hardest thing with fighters is to abandon that identity.

00:54:45.000 We've seen so many guys, even the greats, they come back and they shouldn't, and you see it, and you see them get humiliated.

00:54:52.000 You're like, oh.

00:54:54.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:54:55.000 And when it comes down to it, these people, they don't love you, man.

00:55:02.000 They love you as the image.

00:55:04.000 Yeah, they live vicariously through you.

00:55:07.000 I remember one time I was in a fight in Boston.

00:55:11.000 And I remember when something completely changed.

00:55:14.000 Usually, if anybody would, because I did any kind of thing, I would do kickboxing or this tournament.

00:55:21.000 I just loved my best.

00:55:24.000 I think the thing I did best in the world was fighting.

00:55:28.000 I had this, I always had these cheat codes in a way.

00:55:31.000 And I enjoyed the chess match of it.

00:55:35.000 And anybody who was against me, I don't care if you were my cousin or whatever, you were going to pay for all the angst that I've had in my life.

00:55:45.000 But until there was this one time, I swear, I ducked a technique.

00:55:50.000 I caught somebody with something that was kind of, you know, kind of cool.

00:55:55.000 And I just remember the audience just cheering.

00:56:00.000 And in that moment, I was like just angry.

00:56:05.000 Kind of like, yo, this guy could really be messed up right now.

00:56:10.000 You're cheering for me.

00:56:11.000 You're living vicariously through me like I'm a pit bull or something.

00:56:16.000 And I got angry at the audience.

00:56:19.000 I fucking hated them.

00:56:20.000 And I said, because if I was down on the ground, you'd be cheering for the person that put me down.

00:56:26.000 And something just snapped.

00:56:29.000 And I go, no, this is not enough for me.

00:56:35.000 This is not what I want to do.

00:56:38.000 And, you know, just something snapped.

00:56:41.000 And I'd much rather be skillful, test myself in a skillful way.

00:56:52.000 And I'd much rather not try to peel your head off, but show I could, as opposed to, you know, that triumph of dominating.

00:57:04.000 It was nothing for me anymore in that.

00:57:09.000 You know, and just something, just something just rubbed me the wrong way.

00:57:13.000 And I just, anytime I would do any kind of competition, it was for me, and it wasn't for an audience.

00:57:20.000 You know, just something soured. 0.98

00:57:24.000 I always thought at one time, I'm going to be called out, you know, and I thought, oh, I'll rise to that occasion if that happens.

00:57:32.000 And, you know, kind of like, remember the thing with you and Wesley?

00:57:37.000 Which would have been, oh, my God, that would have been terrible.

00:57:42.000 But I always thought, hey, well, you know, maybe, you know, something.

00:57:45.000 I think Wesley just needed money.

00:57:47.000 I mean, that was one of the things that I was doing.

00:57:48.000 I don't think he'd ever be serious.

00:57:50.000 I don't think that was ever serious.

00:57:52.000 It's very much like I think.

00:57:53.000 We were in negotiation for quite a while, man.

00:57:55.000 We had lawyers involved.

00:57:57.000 Yeah, it's always easy to pull a plug on something like that.

00:57:59.000 Just like John Claude's talking about fighting Jake Paul, right?

00:58:03.000 Is he talking about the radio?

00:58:04.000 He's 100 years old.

00:58:06.000 He lays 50 pounds.

00:58:07.000 I'm 100 years old.

00:58:08.000 I'm like, come on, man.

00:58:09.000 Come on.

00:58:10.000 Is he really talking about that?

00:58:12.000 I just saw something in the last couple of days.

00:58:14.000 I'm like, I think Wesley was serious because I think they had hit him with that tax case.

00:58:22.000 And he owed a lot of money.

00:58:24.000 Well, this is before that tax case.

00:58:25.000 No, no, no.

00:58:26.000 It was in the middle of it.

00:58:27.000 Really?

00:58:27.000 Yeah, 100%.

00:58:28.000 I know it was.

00:58:29.000 Yeah.

00:58:29.000 It was 2000, I want to say five or six.

00:58:29.000 Yeah.

00:58:33.000 It was in the middle of all that.

00:58:34.000 And he was in trouble.

00:58:36.000 It was serious.

00:58:37.000 And he, you know, obviously eventually wound up going to jail.

00:58:41.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:58:41.000 So they were going to set up a fight with him and Jean-Claude Van Damme.

00:58:44.000 That was the first fight.

00:58:46.000 But Campbell McLaren, yeah, Campbell McLaren from the UFC was like, no one gives a shit about you fighting Jean-Claude Van Damme.

00:58:51.000 You got to fight someone who's current.

00:58:53.000 And so he said, let me contact Joe Rogan.

00:58:57.000 He called me up and he said, would you be willing to fight Wesley Snipes?

00:59:00.000 And I was like, what?

00:59:02.000 And I was like, come on, really?

00:59:03.000 I go, what is this?

00:59:04.000 And so I said, let me think about it.

00:59:06.000 I thought about it.

00:59:07.000 I called him the next day.

00:59:08.000 I said, let's fucking do it.

00:59:09.000 Really?

00:59:10.000 I was training with Rob Kamen in the mornings and then I was doing jiu-jitsu at night.

00:59:10.000 Yeah.

00:59:14.000 I trained twice a day for six months.

00:59:16.000 Wow.

00:59:17.000 I was always tired.

00:59:18.000 I was always tired.

00:59:19.000 That's the one thing that I realized, like, fuck, man, to be like, and I wasn't even a professional, really, but it was training like a professional.

00:59:25.000 It's like, I can't believe how tired I am all the time.

00:59:29.000 But, you know, I think Wesley had never really had a fight.

00:59:33.000 I don't think so.

00:59:34.000 I think he was an accomplished martial artist.

00:59:37.000 He had good technique.

00:59:38.000 I trained with Wesley's instructors, you know, Marcus Elgato, who's a good friend of mine, and also Lamar Thornton, who was Marcus Elgato's instructor.

00:59:49.000 That's, I believe, that's the only, that's the lineage I believe that he's through.

00:59:56.000 But I mean, I've never, I've known Wesley since way before he was kind of Wesley.

01:00:01.000 I was a giant fan of Wesley.

01:00:03.000 Yeah, which is also wild for me because I love Blade.

01:00:06.000 Blade was like my favorite comic book when I was a kid.

01:00:09.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:00:10.000 I just didn't, I didn't think they were serious about it.

01:00:13.000 I couldn't imagine why Wesley, I always thought it was not real.

01:00:18.000 I think Wesley thought that I was just a grappler and think he knew that I was doing jiu-jitsu.

01:00:24.000 I don't think he knew my background.

01:00:26.000 And so, like, they were, Wesley was talking to them, saying, Oh, he thinks he's going to be able to stop you from taking him down.

01:00:33.000 He's going to catch you with a knee while you're coming in to try to take him down.

01:00:36.000 Like, I go, Oh, he wants to stand up?

01:00:37.000 Yeah, I go, I'm way better at that.

01:00:41.000 Yeah, yeah, I was wondering how that even occurred.

01:00:45.000 I didn't think that was serious.

01:00:46.000 I was like, okay.

01:00:47.000 It was serious.

01:00:48.000 Yeah, it was serious.

01:00:50.000 It went on for a long time.

01:00:52.000 It was a lot of negotiation to the point where I even talked about it on the UFC broadcast once.

01:00:58.000 I said, Come on, Wesley, sign the contract.

01:01:01.000 I'm getting bored training.

01:01:02.000 Let's do this.

01:01:03.000 Like, I have to do it now.

01:01:04.000 I was like 35 or 36.

01:01:06.000 I was like, I don't have much time left.

01:01:08.000 If we're going to do this, we have to do this now.

01:01:10.000 Like, come on, let's go.

01:01:12.000 And then he decided not to.

01:01:13.000 And then I'm like, that's probably for the better.

01:01:15.000 Yeah, I know Wesley for a while.

01:01:17.000 Wow.

01:01:17.000 I remember when he was first telling me about the sovereign being sovereign.

01:01:22.000 Yeah, that's where they got him with that sovereign citizen shit.

01:01:25.000 Yeah, and I was like, I wish I was friends with him.

01:01:29.000 I would have said, dude, you're going to lock you up.

01:01:32.000 I'm super protective of my friends.

01:01:35.000 I've always been that way.

01:01:36.000 And with Wesley, I was always like, my thing is he used to have people around him that I'm like, you know, we have little get-togethers at my house, whatever.

01:01:45.000 I'm like, don't bring any of those motherfuckers or it's going to be a problem. 0.94

01:01:50.000 You know, because there's just people that just I felt like were hangers on and, you know, that kind of a thing.

01:01:55.000 And I was always like, yeah, man, you are you good?

01:01:58.000 And, you know, are you staying healthy?

01:02:01.000 I've always been that way because the way I look at it, he's a big brother.

01:02:04.000 If not for him, it may not be for me.

01:02:06.000 You know, he gave me some good advice early on.

01:02:09.000 He always encouraged me that if I have a movie that's overseas, get there.

01:02:14.000 You know, show up in those overseas markets and let them know that you're down, you know.

01:02:20.000 And I took that to heart and that helped me out in my career a great deal.

01:02:25.000 And so I, you know, I look at it like that.

01:02:27.000 I've never, I'll never say anything derogatory about him or whatever.

01:02:31.000 So, I mean, I'm always, I just recently tried to reach out to him like a couple days ago just to check in, man, because I, I, you know, I wish him the best.

01:02:41.000 And, you know, I want to really, you know, start kicking ass again.

01:02:46.000 I would love to see him return as Blade.

01:02:48.000 Yeah, that would be cool.

01:02:50.000 He could do it too.

01:02:51.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:02:52.000 An older Blade, he could do it.

01:02:54.000 Yeah.

01:02:55.000 Fuck, he was good in the original Blade.

01:02:57.000 That's that opening scene.

01:02:59.000 That was one of the best scenes in any action movie of all time when it's that vampire party and the sprinkler starts spraying blood.

01:03:07.000 Yeah.

01:03:08.000 And they're about to kill that dude.

01:03:09.000 And all of a sudden, Wesley shows up.

01:03:11.000 Yeah, man.

01:03:12.000 What really gets on my nerves is that, you know, he saved Marvel, man.

01:03:17.000 That movie saved Marvel.

01:03:19.000 Oh, yeah.

01:03:19.000 You know that, right?

01:03:20.000 That movie was a huge movie.

01:03:21.000 Even Stan Lee admits that.

01:03:23.000 They were like in trouble until that movie.

01:03:25.000 Isn't that crazy?

01:03:27.000 Superhero movies are the biggest fucking movies in Hollywood right now.

01:03:31.000 I mean, when they have a big budget movie, superhero movies are like the only movie that you can throw hundreds of millions of dollars and be sure it's going to kill it in the box office.

01:03:41.000 Whether it's The Avengers or Spider-Man or Superman or whoever the fuck it is.

01:03:41.000 Yeah.

01:03:46.000 That's the only kind of movie that Hollywood's like, yeah, okay, we'll throw 500 million at this one.

01:03:51.000 Yeah, and you know, it's, it's, I'm not a big fan of those things.

01:03:56.000 I, I, I, I know it's not, they didn't design it for people like me.

01:04:00.000 So it's for the fan base.

01:04:00.000 Right.

01:04:02.000 And to me, it's like, oh, you know, I they tend to meld into each other as far as I'm concerned.

01:04:10.000 They do.

01:04:10.000 Yeah.

01:04:10.000 They do.

01:04:11.000 There's only so many times you could tell the stories.

01:04:11.000 Yeah.

01:04:14.000 There's only so much, you know.

01:04:15.000 Yeah.

01:04:16.000 But I still enjoy them.

01:04:17.000 I still enjoy some of them.

01:04:19.000 They're fun.

01:04:20.000 Yeah, I like when people are believable.

01:04:23.000 Right.

01:04:24.000 Believable.

01:04:25.000 Yeah, there's nothing believable about those movies.

01:04:27.000 Yeah.

01:04:27.000 You know, I like the actors that are like, you know, have some quirkiness and some edge to them.

01:04:33.000 So, yeah, yeah.

01:04:33.000 Right.

01:04:35.000 You know, maybe I'm being unfair because I really hadn't seen a lot.

01:04:38.000 Maybe I owe it to myself to give some of them.

01:04:41.000 No, I think you got it.

01:04:43.000 It's simple entertainment.

01:04:45.000 It's a silly release and escape.

01:04:48.000 That's all it is.

01:04:49.000 It's not a great, there's no great films that are superhero films.

01:04:52.000 Right, yeah, because sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah, she's 90 pounds and she just threw a guy. 1.00

01:04:56.000 Okay, let me like Charlie's Angels or something.

01:05:00.000 I'm like, kick him on stilettos.

01:05:02.000 And it's like, anytime somebody lands in a three-point stance and then looks up, I'm like, I just changed the channel.

01:05:08.000 I'm just like, stop.

01:05:09.000 Just stop.

01:05:10.000 Yeah.

01:05:13.000 But, you know, people love those things.

01:05:15.000 I'm like, that's cool.

01:05:16.000 I don't know why they have so much appeal, especially in the American market.

01:05:20.000 People, that is one of the only movies that you can make that's guaranteed to be huge.

01:05:26.000 Yeah, it's McDonald's, man.

01:05:28.000 It's McDonald's.

01:05:29.000 But I remember when I remember when you had, what was that?

01:05:34.000 Like the 300.

01:05:36.000 You know, that was like, nobody knew anybody.

01:05:39.000 But that was just such a breath of fresh air because it looked like some badasses that were real.

01:05:39.000 Right.

01:05:45.000 Yeah.

01:05:45.000 You know what I mean?

01:05:46.000 I'd like to see more of that kind of a thing.

01:05:48.000 Like, you know, not the star power thing, but just some motherfuckers that you believe.

01:05:52.000 Right.

01:05:53.000 That would, you know, that would attract me.

01:05:53.000 You know what I mean?

01:05:56.000 Also, the style of that movie was so unique because it blended fantasy with reality.

01:06:00.000 It blended like comedy.

01:06:02.000 History too.

01:06:03.000 Yeah, You know, not wood.

01:06:06.000 I got some things in the works.

01:06:09.000 Do you?

01:06:09.000 Yeah.

01:06:10.000 What are you working on?

01:06:10.000 Oh, man.

01:06:11.000 I've been blessed, man.

01:06:13.000 I've got some really good movies coming out and some things that I'm planning on doing.

01:06:18.000 I'm getting to a place where I'm really shooting the things that I want and I've been producing and all that stuff.

01:06:24.000 So, you know, so I have movies that have their body count, but also have a little bit of something to say.

01:06:31.000 You know what I miss?

01:06:32.000 What's that?

01:06:33.000 Spawn.

01:06:34.000 Oh, man.

01:06:35.000 Bro, a lot of people.

01:06:36.000 People forgot about spawn.

01:06:38.000 You don't hear about it anymore.

01:06:40.000 Right.

01:06:40.000 Yeah, man.

01:06:41.000 That was fucking great.

01:06:43.000 Yeah, I had my.

01:06:45.000 Man, most people didn't see the first adaptation of it.

01:06:51.000 The first, well, I saw a cut of the movie before it, I mean, at this time, it had like 71 special effects in it.

01:07:01.000 But Bob Shea at the time that was running New Line liked that version.

01:07:09.000 He just gave the director, Karn Botch, to just add whatever he wanted.

01:07:15.000 And the director was a special effects guy.

01:07:19.000 So he started throwing special effects in there that was really killing the story, which kind of drove me up a wall because then, like, you didn't even see why my character wanted to get back.

01:07:34.000 You didn't even see the life that I wanted to get back to because there was so much special effects.

01:07:39.000 And even when I saw the final version, I'm like, what the hell is going on?

01:07:43.000 People that knew Spawn, they were fine with it because they understood the character.

01:07:48.000 But for me, it was like the story got all convoluted.

01:07:52.000 But like, you know, but I mean, people love it.

01:07:55.000 I think it was a thing for its time.

01:07:57.000 But unfortunately, I saw a version of it that made you care about it.

01:08:02.000 I understand, but I cared about the one that I saw.

01:08:05.000 And I felt like I don't understand how Spawn sort of escaped the zeitgeist.

01:08:11.000 You don't ever hear about Spawn anymore.

01:08:13.000 You know what I mean?

01:08:14.000 Like there's all these superhero films, all these different things, but Spawn was unique.

01:08:19.000 And it was really good and dark.

01:08:22.000 Yeah, I always said if they did another one, you should do it just like the comic book.

01:08:26.000 Make it hard R or non-rated.

01:08:30.000 Because, I mean, like to do a spawn PG, how we did PG-13.

01:08:35.000 Yeah.

01:08:36.000 It's like, what do you want?

01:08:37.000 Are you trying to go for a breakfast cereal?

01:08:38.000 Like Spawnholes or something?

01:08:41.000 Like, come on, man.

01:08:42.000 Let's go hard like the cartoon, right?

01:08:44.000 See if we can find a clip from Spawn.

01:08:46.000 Because I feel like no one talks about it anymore.

01:08:50.000 It's kind of weird.

01:08:51.000 They damn sure talk to me about it.

01:08:53.000 Bro, it was good.

01:08:57.000 What year was this?

01:08:58.000 97.

01:08:59.000 Wow.

01:09:00.000 Yeah.

01:09:02.000 They were fucking great, man.

01:09:05.000 Now stay sharp.

01:09:06.000 The night is young.

01:09:10.000 Evil has a new enemy.

01:09:13.000 Justice has a new weapon.

01:09:16.000 has a new hero.

01:09:22.000 Ha ha ha.

01:09:24.000 The memories.

01:09:26.000 Bro, that was a fucking great movie, man.

01:09:29.000 New Line Cinema Presents.

01:09:30.000 Yeah.

01:09:31.000 That was a great movie.

01:09:32.000 How many did you guys do?

01:09:33.000 One.

01:09:34.000 Just one.

01:09:35.000 There was nothing else.

01:09:36.000 Wasn't there something else like a series?

01:09:37.000 It was a cartoon first.

01:09:38.000 That's right.

01:09:39.000 Yeah.

01:09:40.000 Well, it was comic book, then it was a cartoon on HBO.

01:09:43.000 Oh, that's right.

01:09:44.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:09:47.000 Keith David was the voice of Spawn on that one.

01:09:50.000 Oh, yeah.

01:09:52.000 Yep.

01:09:53.000 And so, yeah.

01:09:54.000 But that was a big hit.

01:09:56.000 I think so.

01:09:59.000 I mean, it made its money back.

01:10:01.000 I mean, I remember it was very popular.

01:10:01.000 Yeah.

01:10:03.000 Like, everyone who was talking about it, people got excited about it.

01:10:06.000 Especially people like me that liked the comic books.

01:10:09.000 They were very into it.

01:10:09.000 Right, right.

01:10:10.000 Yeah.

01:10:11.000 I was always surprised.

01:10:12.000 But it just, it's weird to me that even the comic book spawn doesn't get brought up anymore.

01:10:18.000 Yeah.

01:10:18.000 Right.

01:10:19.000 Every now and then, like when like I'm off doing a movie, whatever, I drive by comic book stores.

01:10:23.000 I go and I just start signing shit, right?

01:10:26.000 The spawn stuff.

01:10:27.000 So there's still stuff there.

01:10:28.000 Oh, yeah.

01:10:29.000 He's always giving me a hardcore fan base.

01:10:30.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:10:31.000 So, I mean, you know, there's people like there's still hardcore about that.

01:10:34.000 And then Tom McFarland has talked about doing another spawn for the last 25 years.

01:10:44.000 That would be huge.

01:10:45.000 But the weird thing is, it's like, okay, I wish you all the best of luck, bro.

01:10:51.000 But you created the comic book.

01:10:55.000 When he's talking about doing another spawn, I'm like, you haven't done a first one.

01:10:59.000 Like the comic book.

01:11:00.000 No, he's not a director.

01:11:02.000 Like, it's just like Stan Lee hasn't directed a Marvel movie.

01:11:07.000 Right.

01:11:08.000 And Tom McFarland is talking about doing another spawn, but I'm like, well, that would be the first time a person that created a comic book directed and produced a movie that I know of, right?

01:11:23.000 Because even though he talks about he's going to do one, and he had this concept that he talked to me about, and then he said he wanted to, you know, I guess he wanted to use Jamie Fox.

01:11:33.000 And he talked about this concept that spawn would be, you wouldn't see him.

01:11:37.000 And it's like Jaws.

01:11:38.000 He would never be around, but just people would get fucked up.

01:11:42.000 All of a sudden, like a mist would come and people are destroyed.

01:11:46.000 I'm like, good luck with that.

01:11:51.000 You know, I don't know, but he's been talking about it for a while.

01:11:56.000 And people say, oh, man, I'm sad that you're not the next spawn, that they're using Jamie.

01:12:03.000 I'm like, when is it going to happen?

01:12:06.000 He's been saying that for a long time, but I'm going, hey, maybe somebody is going to give him that amount of money to do a movie when he's never directed anything before.

01:12:16.000 Right.

01:12:17.000 He hasn't directed anything before.

01:12:19.000 He visited Set a few times because he created a comic book.

01:12:26.000 Directing a movie is something completely different.

01:12:28.000 You know what I mean?

01:12:29.000 So I'm like, all power to you if that's happening.

01:12:32.000 But it's like, I wonder why people believe it.

01:12:38.000 Hmm.

01:12:39.000 Yeah, that's a lot to bite off, especially a movie like that, which would probably a large budget.

01:12:45.000 Yeah.

01:12:47.000 But, you know, but it's.

01:12:49.000 And then you're going to get the executives involved, and they're going to fuck with it because they always have to have their say.

01:12:53.000 Yeah, man, it's a miracle that a movie gets done the way it's intended, period.

01:13:00.000 I'm like, a lot of times when a movie works, I go, how did some executive not fuck this movie up?

01:13:00.000 Yeah.

01:13:06.000 Right.

01:13:07.000 I mean, I'm always like.

01:13:08.000 There's only a few guys that can get away with a movie where everybody just leaves them alone.

01:13:13.000 There's a few Tarantinos out there.

01:13:15.000 Let them go.

01:13:16.000 Just let them go.

01:13:17.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:13:17.000 If you tried to make Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and you weren't a successful director, you were just some guy with an idea.

01:13:23.000 Someone would come along and fuck that up.

01:13:25.000 Absolutely.

01:13:25.000 Yeah.

01:13:26.000 Absolutely.

01:13:27.000 Luckily, people leave me alone.

01:13:30.000 I've been directing and doing my own thing.

01:13:32.000 They go, okay, you got this.

01:13:33.000 Okay, like I say, I'll give you the body count, but now if I could put stuff in it, you know.

01:13:38.000 What is going on with Jamie Foxx doing Tyson?

01:13:41.000 Because that's been rumored for a decade isn't that.

01:13:44.000 Yeah, that's another thing.

01:13:45.000 It's like weird that Jamie Fox wants to do a Tyson and a spawn.

01:13:49.000 It's like, I don't know.

01:13:50.000 I don't take it personally.

01:13:51.000 A very talented guy.

01:13:53.000 But yeah, I think Jamie does a very good impression of Mike Tyson.

01:13:58.000 Yeah, but you got to gain like 100 pounds.

01:14:01.000 Right.

01:14:01.000 And then Jamie's got to get, he's got to pack on that meat at 50.

01:14:05.000 But then why?

01:14:07.000 I just sit there and I go, why?

01:14:09.000 When Tyson's life itself has been very transparent.

01:14:15.000 Right.

01:14:16.000 And so you can see the real guy in documentary form and everything else.

01:14:22.000 What story do you have to tell?

01:14:25.000 I'm not trying to be a hater, but I'm like, I just, I'm just curious.

01:14:25.000 That's true.

01:14:29.000 The only thing that would be interesting is seeing Jamie do it.

01:14:32.000 Seeing him like he pulled off Ray Charles, like seeing him pull it off.

01:14:37.000 That would be the appeal of it, I think.

01:14:39.000 Right, but in my personal opinion, I don't think that's enough.

01:14:42.000 You got to tell a story.

01:14:43.000 Right, I know what you're saying.

01:14:44.000 Yeah, it's got to be some compelling story.

01:14:48.000 I mean, hell.

01:14:49.000 I mean, people saw Titanic.

01:14:50.000 You know how it's going to end.

01:14:52.000 But he had to present a story there.

01:14:56.000 But Jamie is so versatile.

01:14:58.000 Yeah.

01:14:58.000 You know what I mean?

01:14:59.000 There's very few guys that can do all the different things that he can do.

01:15:02.000 He can sing.

01:15:04.000 He can act.

01:15:05.000 He could do stand-up.

01:15:07.000 And he could do all kinds of different characters.

01:15:09.000 And I mean, and he's so believable in so many different roles.

01:15:14.000 You know what I watched the other day, which is a fucking great movie that I forgot was so great is collateral.

01:15:19.000 Oh, hell yeah.

01:15:20.000 No, no.

01:15:20.000 Oh, my God.

01:15:21.000 When Jamie had collateral and Ray, to me, you couldn't have had a better year.

01:15:28.000 Two completely different mindset games.

01:15:28.000 Right.

01:15:30.000 Yes, absolutely.

01:15:32.000 Absolutely.

01:15:33.000 And he became those people.

01:15:35.000 He became Ray Charles.

01:15:37.000 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:15:38.000 Yeah.

01:15:39.000 And as good as he can sing, him singing as Ray Charles was insane.

01:15:43.000 It's one of the best performances ever.

01:15:46.000 Ever.

01:15:47.000 Ever.

01:15:47.000 But so is collateral.

01:15:47.000 Yeah.

01:15:50.000 He really played that dude in collateral.

01:15:52.000 You believed it.

01:15:53.000 Tom Cruise.

01:15:53.000 And fucking Tom.

01:15:55.000 Oh, my God.

01:15:56.000 Tom Cruise really proved something to me in that damn movie.

01:16:00.000 Because I would never think I would ever be scared of Tom freaking Cruz.

01:16:05.000 Right.

01:16:05.000 And how convincing he was.

01:16:08.000 He's a bad motherfucker.

01:16:09.000 Yes.

01:16:09.000 He is a bad.

01:16:10.000 He's crazy as batshit, but he's a bad motherfucker.

01:16:14.000 You have to brought it in that movie.

01:16:15.000 You have to be that crazy to do all the stunts that that guy does.

01:16:18.000 I mean, he's 60 years old.

01:16:19.000 He's jumping off buildings and shit and breaking his ankle.

01:16:21.000 Yeah, just like Johnny Depp.

01:16:23.000 I'm like, Johnny Depp, when he did Black Mass.

01:16:28.000 Like, I'm like, oh, you had that in you?

01:16:29.000 Right, right.

01:16:30.000 Holy shit.

01:16:31.000 And just like with Tom Cruise, I'm like, him having that character in him?

01:16:35.000 There's a scene in collateral that tactical instructors play.

01:16:39.000 Yes.

01:16:40.000 The scene when they're...

01:16:41.000 Yeah.

01:16:41.000 The double tap.

01:16:41.000 Yes.

01:16:42.000 He whips it back.

01:16:43.000 Double tap, double tap. 0.99

01:16:44.000 He knocks the guy's gun out of the way, pulls it out.

01:16:48.000 And it's so fast.

01:16:49.000 It's so smooth.

01:16:50.000 See if you can find that scene, Jamie.

01:16:52.000 It's a scene where they're trying to take Tom Cruise's briefcase and he's in an alleyway.

01:16:57.000 Yep.

01:16:58.000 Ooh.

01:16:59.000 Yeah, I played that over and over myself.

01:17:02.000 The amount of times that he must have drilled that to get that, unholster the gun, pull it out, shoot him, shoot the other dude, so smooth.

01:17:11.000 And the way he did it, so professional.

01:17:13.000 I mean, he looks like a legit hitman.

01:17:16.000 Oh, absolutely.

01:17:17.000 Absolutely.

01:17:18.000 Yeah, that was that character.

01:17:22.000 I mean, from start to finish, like, to me, proved a lot.

01:17:27.000 Yeah.

01:17:27.000 I mean, he embodied that guy.

01:17:30.000 And you know, there it is.

01:17:35.000 That's my briefcase?

01:17:36.000 Is it your briefcase?

01:17:37.000 Yeah, it is.

01:17:38.000 Why?

01:17:39.000 You want it back?

01:17:44.000 What else you got from me?

01:17:45.000 Huh?

01:17:50.000 Come on, son.

01:17:58.000 Yeah.

01:18:00.000 I actually visited that set when they were shooting that.

01:18:03.000 Not that scene, but it was another, it was another day.

01:18:09.000 And it was, I remember it was weird because they were shooting something and they were shooting Tom, behind Tom Cruise's head.

01:18:17.000 And they had eight camera angles just behind his head.

01:18:22.000 I'm like, and I'm looking at the, you know, the video village where They made sure they had a choice of whatever perfect thing that they want.

01:18:35.000 It was the craziest thing.

01:18:37.000 I'm like, and I guess Michael Mann, he's known for like shooting a lot, but it was like eight cameras that's just behind the dude.

01:18:49.000 That's crazy.

01:18:50.000 I'm like, this is a whole nother like level.

01:18:50.000 Yeah.

01:18:54.000 Yeah, it was crazy.

01:18:55.000 It's a great fucking movie.

01:18:57.000 That movie holds up.

01:18:58.000 Oh, yeah.

01:18:59.000 Oh, yeah.

01:19:00.000 That's Prime Jamie, man.

01:19:02.000 Yeah.

01:19:02.000 Yep.

01:19:03.000 And the fact that he's got that much range that he can do this nerdy dude who's terrified, doesn't know what the fuck is going on.

01:19:03.000 Yep.

01:19:10.000 He's just driving a car.

01:19:11.000 And all of a sudden he has his hitman with him.

01:19:13.000 Then he gets wrapped up in this whole thing.

01:19:15.000 Yeah, but as a fan, I want to see him do something else like that.

01:19:19.000 Right.

01:19:20.000 You know what I mean?

01:19:21.000 Like something like that requires what he can do.

01:19:24.000 And there's a lot of, you know, that's one of the things.

01:19:27.000 Not a lot of things out there sometimes.

01:19:29.000 You know, so, you know, he's been doing things that I think show, you know, certain parts, but like to where he was going in collateral and Ray, you know, it'd be nice to see that stuff again.

01:19:43.000 It's got to be hard to find those roles, right?

01:19:46.000 And when you find those roles, there's probably like six or seven A-list dudes that they have like on a board somewhere and they're trying to figure out who's the guy for this.

01:19:57.000 Yeah, but I believe.

01:19:59.000 I believe you got to create your own stuff, man.

01:20:02.000 Put it this way.

01:20:03.000 Nobody was going to write Black Dynamite.

01:20:05.000 Right, right, right.

01:20:06.000 You know what I mean?

01:20:08.000 My thing is largely creating my own length.

01:20:10.000 That was a fun movie, by the way.

01:20:11.000 Well, thanks, man.

01:20:12.000 Really fun.

01:20:13.000 Thanks, man.

01:20:14.000 So, yeah, man.

01:20:15.000 So luckily, I enjoyed writing.

01:20:19.000 I've always looked at everything from, I was always fascinated about this industry.

01:20:25.000 And I showed a lot of things as a writer, separate from the acting thing.

01:20:31.000 And so, you know, just putting it all together is something that's like I really enjoy doing.

01:20:36.000 How do you dedicate your time when you're writing?

01:20:38.000 Do you just have an idea and say, okay, for the next X weeks, I'm going to sit down and dedicate myself to this?

01:20:43.000 Dude, it's all different.

01:20:44.000 A lot of times I will see the entire movie.

01:20:47.000 Like when I did Black Dynamite, dude, I was in China going to set.

01:20:54.000 I was in Shanghai.

01:20:57.000 And I was listening to James Brown Superbad.

01:21:02.000 And I just started thinking about, I'm laughing.

01:21:06.000 I'm in the back of this car and there's a driver wondering what the hell is going on with me.

01:21:11.000 I'm seeing the whole goddamn movie, including a nunchuck fight scene with Richard Nixon. 1.00

01:21:19.000 And I'm laughing.

01:21:22.000 And, you know, I started jotting stuff down because it occurred to me, man.

01:21:26.000 Like, I just like, I mean, one day I was thinking like, wow, man, like, growing up, we had Shaft and well, we had Superfly and the Mac and all that posters like that that we idolized.

01:21:39.000 And I'm going, those were pimps.

01:21:43.000 There was something wrong with my childhood.

01:21:45.000 Why am I like, the Mac?

01:21:49.000 Like, that's a hero.

01:21:51.000 And so it made me really think about it.

01:21:53.000 And I'm like, I'm looking at these movies and like Jim Brown and Fred Williamson are like killing like 60 people and it's okay.

01:22:02.000 Everybody's like this.

01:22:04.000 They have a club and then they got all these women and all this. 1.00

01:22:07.000 And I'm like, this is actually hilarious.

01:22:09.000 If I do a movie that depicted it exactly like it is, thinking about this, one of the biggest movies of that time was Three the Hard Way.

01:22:18.000 I don't know if you remember that movie.

01:22:20.000 Jim Brown, Fred Williamson, and Jim Kelly.

01:22:23.000 Oh, yeah.

01:22:25.000 For not about Jim Kelly.

01:22:27.000 The hard way.

01:22:28.000 What was it about?

01:22:29.000 It had the three predominant black exploitation stars, right? 0.54

01:22:33.000 And the movie was about an evil Dr. Feather who had these leaders of liquid that he was going to put in the water systems of LA, Chicago, and New York that were going to kill all the black people.

01:22:51.000 It's not comedy.

01:22:52.000 That's the movie?

01:22:54.000 It's not a comedy.

01:22:56.000 It was going to give sickle-cell anemia to all the black people. 1.00

01:23:00.000 Now, the conspirator thing, I've been a black man for a long time, and it is really funny because in the community, conspiracy is a big thing, right?

01:23:12.000 So that whole conspirator thing, oh, they trying to get you, that kind of a thing.

01:23:17.000 It really, its engine was that, that paranoia that this leader of liquid was going to kill black people.

01:23:26.000 Well, there was so much evidence that those conspiracies were real, like the Tuskegee.

01:23:30.000 But of course, that's something that's like, it's on its feet, though.

01:23:35.000 But come on, a leader, something this big in the water systems that was going to kill all the black people. 1.00

01:23:45.000 And that's not a comedy.

01:23:47.000 That was a serious movie.

01:23:49.000 But when you look at it, that's hilarious.

01:23:52.000 It's absolutely hilarious to think that you can do a movie about that.

01:23:57.000 So to do a movie, I thought that really talked about that time period where it was kind of this over-correction.

01:24:07.000 Because, you know, you had in the 60s, there were like, you know, butlers and maids and all that kind of stuff.

01:24:14.000 But now you had these super overcorrected badasses that could just do anything, right? 1.00

01:24:22.000 And I thought it was hilarious to look at it and treat it as if it were like back in that day, like a lost movie.

01:24:29.000 Actually, Tarantino was somebody I was talking to about that whole thing when I was putting Black Dynamite together.

01:24:37.000 And he had certain ideas, but I kind of went my own direction with it.

01:24:41.000 But yeah, man, so yeah, things like that.

01:24:44.000 Like, you know, I've gotten to a place where I'm putting these things together that really interest me.

01:24:52.000 And I'm finding that there's an audience that likes it as well.

01:24:55.000 But yeah, man, so, you know, it just occurred to me that it was bizarre.

01:25:01.000 Yeah.

01:25:02.000 So, I mean, you know, so for that movie, that movie just came to you.

01:25:02.000 Yeah.

01:25:06.000 Yeah.

01:25:07.000 But it came to me just like the whole movie came to me in a ride to set.

01:25:12.000 Is that normal for ideas?

01:25:14.000 Or do you sometimes sit down and say, like, I want to write an idea about blank?

01:25:19.000 Sometimes, sometimes.

01:25:20.000 Like, I have a movie that the next movie I'm going to do is a sequel to a movie I did called As Good as Dead, right?

01:25:28.000 And it became Samuel Goldwyn's one of their most successful movies.

01:25:33.000 I wrote the idea.

01:25:35.000 It was based off my brother.

01:25:36.000 My brother, he went from Florida into Mexico and started a family.

01:25:41.000 He just fell in love with Mexico.

01:25:44.000 And I kind of based my character on him.

01:25:48.000 And he's basically a cop that's hiding out in Mexico and trying to avoid this syndicate or whatever that's trying to kill him.

01:25:58.000 But that movie just came to me.

01:26:03.000 I wrote it.

01:26:05.000 We were in production like two months later.

01:26:08.000 And we actually got the movie done within a year.

01:26:12.000 How did you get it made so quick?

01:26:14.000 Yeah, I mean, they responded to the script.

01:26:16.000 And it was kind of like a grown-up karate kid in a way.

01:26:21.000 So my character, you don't know what's this black dude doing working construction in Mexico.

01:26:28.000 And he's got his wing chung dummy. 1.00

01:26:30.000 He's training in his backyard.

01:26:31.000 And it's a kid who's trying to avoid the gangs that he befriends that he teaches this unique kind of martial art.

01:26:39.000 And so one thing relating to another, this kid gets good at it and they trace the style back to my character.

01:26:46.000 And then the bad guys are trying to kill me and I have to fight back.

01:26:51.000 So what we're doing, we're about to do a sequel.

01:26:54.000 I start that in a couple of weeks, actually.

01:26:56.000 So I wrote that one.

01:26:59.000 But yeah, so I feel like, I don't know, I'm still a fan of movies.

01:27:09.000 I wouldn't write something I wouldn't want to see.

01:27:11.000 And I've seen a lot.

01:27:14.000 I think I understand this industry.

01:27:16.000 I understand there's a lot of stories that I think could be told with fresh ways and with the action and martial arts that could be new and exciting.

01:27:28.000 I'm getting to a place where I'm trying to make fight scenes look very real, including choreographing mistakes.

01:27:37.000 You know what I mean?

01:27:38.000 I think people have become so much more sophisticated watching UFC fights and all that type of stuff.

01:27:45.000 I think you got to raise the bar to make something look real.

01:27:50.000 And there's a lot of this stuff that's in the, you know, the superhero movies and whatever that you just kind of go, okay, you're seeing choreography for choreography's sake.

01:28:01.000 Right.

01:28:02.000 And you're not invested because you don't feel like you're looking at a real fight.

01:28:07.000 And so I like to kind of, you know, use my platform to step that up a bit.

01:28:11.000 Yeah, that's hard, especially as a person who is a martial artist to watch fight scenes and go, you have to kind of suspend disbelief and go, all right.

01:28:19.000 Well, yes.

01:28:20.000 Kind of like, you know, it's weird, but, you know, kind of full circle.

01:28:23.000 It's kind of going back to the way Bruce Lee did stuff.

01:28:26.000 And he's a little faster than the other person.

01:28:27.000 He has a little bit more technique.

01:28:30.000 And, you know, if you imagine, like, even if I imagine you in a real fight, your technique's not going nowhere.

01:28:38.000 And other people are not going to have that same technique.

01:28:41.000 You beat somebody to the punch.

01:28:42.000 You do things that would logically give you the edge.

01:28:47.000 That's what you shoot.

01:28:49.000 You know what I mean?

01:28:50.000 Yeah.

01:28:50.000 So it's not like you got to do a lot of camera tricks.

01:28:50.000 Right.

01:28:54.000 If you're moving faster and stronger than another person, well, there it is.

01:28:59.000 There it is.

01:29:00.000 So luckily, you know, I mean, I can put things on screen that kind of resemble what things might look like, you know, and you get the benefit of the doubt because, you know, you're in a heroic position.

01:29:16.000 It's just very hard to do that.

01:29:18.000 It's very hard to make it look real.

01:29:20.000 There's a real art to that.

01:29:22.000 Yeah, yeah, but like with the movie that you turned down, Blood and Bone.

01:29:27.000 I turned down John Wick 4 too, though.

01:29:30.000 I turned down a lot of movies.

01:29:30.000 Oh, yeah.

01:29:32.000 You do.

01:29:33.000 You did the right thing because what you're doing, you could not, you know, this could not be more, you know, up your alley doing the things that you're doing.

01:29:40.000 John Wick was hard.

01:29:41.000 I'm a giant John Wick fan.

01:29:43.000 Especially John Wick 1.

01:29:44.000 And eventually there's going to be a John Wick 7, so you decide to do that.

01:29:49.000 They got kind of crazy.

01:29:51.000 They're over the top now.

01:29:52.000 But even John Wick 1 was totally unrealistic.

01:29:55.000 Oh, man.

01:29:56.000 Totally unrealistic.

01:29:57.000 But so fun.

01:29:58.000 I fucking love those movies.

01:30:00.000 Yeah, well, I got something that's kind of in that vein that I just finished.

01:30:04.000 It's a lot of body count, but a lot of CQB.

01:30:07.000 I've been studying that for a while.

01:30:10.000 CQB?

01:30:11.000 Oh, close quarter combat.

01:30:13.000 Of course, close quarter battle.

01:30:16.000 But, you know, I've been doing A lot of like tactical training and kind of getting myself.

01:30:25.000 I may compete at some point.

01:30:27.000 Oh, really?

01:30:28.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:30:29.000 I've gotten pretty into it.

01:30:31.000 Where do you train at?

01:30:32.000 Well, a lot of places.

01:30:33.000 I train with a guy named Tyler Gray.

01:30:36.000 He's Delta Forest.

01:30:38.000 I had a lot of friends who are like, you know, special force guys.

01:30:42.000 You ever go to Terran Tactical?

01:30:43.000 Oh, of course.

01:30:44.000 Yeah.

01:30:45.000 Yeah.

01:30:45.000 I go to Taryn quite a bit.

01:30:47.000 That guy's the best.

01:30:48.000 Oh, yeah.

01:30:49.000 He's a man.

01:30:50.000 He's amazing.

01:30:51.000 You want to talk about someone who's very technical?

01:30:53.000 Oh, my God.

01:30:55.000 He shoots from the hip better than anybody using a laser.

01:31:00.000 No, he's preposterous.

01:31:02.000 It's always iron sights.

01:31:04.000 Yeah.

01:31:04.000 You know, he doesn't, I mean, he uses red dots, but he prefers iron sights.

01:31:08.000 He's like, they never fail.

01:31:09.000 They never go wrong.

01:31:11.000 Yeah.

01:31:11.000 And he's so crazy accurate.

01:31:13.000 It's wild to watch.

01:31:14.000 And when you think about like, how long, how fast could you just take out everybody in this damn room?

01:31:20.000 It's kind of.

01:31:20.000 It's kind of spooky.

01:31:21.000 Yeah, it is spooky.

01:31:23.000 But it's also, he's so calm about it, too.

01:31:23.000 Yeah.

01:31:25.000 Yeah.

01:31:26.000 It's weird, like, almost like autistic, like weird, just fucking rainman-ish. 0.57

01:31:31.000 Yeah.

01:31:33.000 Like, what the fuck?

01:31:34.000 When you watch him do it, like, many times I've gone to his range and trained, and then, you know, people will goad him into it.

01:31:40.000 Like, do a run, like, do this.

01:31:42.000 And he's like, okay, I'm going to do this.

01:31:43.000 I'm going to do that.

01:31:44.000 I'm going to do that.

01:31:44.000 I'm going to do this.

01:31:45.000 And then I'm going to pull this out right here.

01:31:49.000 Yeah.

01:31:50.000 It's crazy.

01:31:51.000 You're like, what the fuck did I just watch?

01:31:53.000 That is crazy.

01:31:54.000 And then you see how many times he's won the championship?

01:31:56.000 Oh, yeah.

01:31:57.000 Ridiculous.

01:31:58.000 And like, there's only a few people that won consecutive years.

01:32:01.000 And he's got like seven years in a row and just chunks of.

01:32:05.000 I'm like, this is crazy.

01:32:07.000 He's a very unique talent.

01:32:07.000 Yeah.

01:32:09.000 Very unique talent.

01:32:09.000 Yeah.

01:32:11.000 Yeah.

01:32:11.000 A buddy of mine, like Tyler Gray, he just, he's been Delta.

01:32:16.000 He's been, he's been decorating.

01:32:19.000 He's, oh my God, his place in Vegas, he creates guns.

01:32:24.000 And he's got like more in his arsenal than every gun store you can imagine.

01:32:31.000 But like, he's like, he's something else.

01:32:33.000 Like, one of the most mellow people you ever want to meet in your life.

01:32:37.000 And he's been the guy, been the consultant and director on Navy CEOs for years.

01:32:45.000 And, you know, but I got a lot of friends doing that.

01:32:48.000 My brother, he just retired from Secret Service.

01:32:53.000 And, you know, you don't know Danny Hester?

01:32:56.000 No.

01:32:57.000 He was a former Mr. Olympia, classic physique.

01:33:02.000 But he's gotten into, I mean, I shoot with these guys all the time.

01:33:06.000 And actually, Flex Wheeler.

01:33:08.000 You know, a lot of the guys are into the gun stuff.

01:33:12.000 So we go set up stuff.

01:33:16.000 But once you start training, you realize how difficult it is and how long the learning curve is.

01:33:22.000 Because you think, oh, you point, you pull the trigger.

01:33:25.000 What's the big deal?

01:33:26.000 Then you get into it and then you see someone like Taryn or someone who's competing and you go, oh, this is just like everything else.

01:33:34.000 Just like karate, like jiu-jitsu, like there's levels.

01:33:38.000 Levels and levels and levels.

01:33:38.000 Oh, yeah.

01:33:40.000 And you see people competing and you go, oh, wow.

01:33:43.000 Yeah.

01:33:43.000 I'd like to do that someday.

01:33:45.000 Yeah.

01:33:46.000 You're in a great place for it.

01:33:47.000 Yes.

01:33:48.000 Yeah.

01:33:48.000 Texas is a great place for it.

01:33:50.000 Oh, yeah.

01:33:50.000 There's a staccato range that we go to sometimes.

01:33:52.000 It's awesome.

01:33:53.000 They have all these different setups out there.

01:33:55.000 They have this old West town with all these different targets set up and you run from doorway to doorway.

01:34:00.000 It's pretty badass.

01:34:01.000 Yeah, John Jones, I see, is doing quite a bit of that.

01:34:04.000 John Jones is a fucking scary human being.

01:34:07.000 And if you get past him, he's got his fucking dog Dutch. 0.98

01:34:10.000 Yeah.

01:34:10.000 Which is, you know, he brings a Belgian melanois everywhere he goes.

01:34:14.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:34:15.000 I know my good friend, you know, Josh Barnett.

01:34:19.000 He's at Terran's a lot, too.

01:34:20.000 Yeah, he's another scary human being.

01:34:22.000 Yeah, yeah, and a very analytical, intelligent one of the most very well-read.

01:34:26.000 He is like Jeopardy smart.

01:34:28.000 He's like ridiculous.

01:34:30.000 There's not many things that he doesn't know.

01:34:34.000 He's amazing.

01:34:34.000 Yeah.

01:34:35.000 I watch you guys, you guys on this show.

01:34:38.000 I was very flattered.

01:34:39.000 He started, he mentioned out of nowhere.

01:34:43.000 He started talking about how he was inspired by myself and my wife.

01:34:48.000 And that, you know, it actually got me real choked up.

01:34:52.000 I was like, what, man?

01:34:52.000 Yeah.

01:34:54.000 Josh is a great guy.

01:34:55.000 You know, incidentally, my wife is somebody that I don't know.

01:34:55.000 Yeah.

01:35:00.000 You met her a long time ago.

01:35:02.000 You last saw her sliding down the Luxor. 0.92

01:35:05.000 Oh, wow.

01:35:07.000 That's crazy.

01:35:08.000 Yep.

01:35:09.000 That's crazy.

01:35:10.000 On Fear Factor.

01:35:11.000 On Fear Factor.

01:35:12.000 Wow.

01:35:12.000 Yeah.

01:35:13.000 She was sliding down the Luxor when you last saw her.

01:35:16.000 She slid right into my arms. 0.99

01:35:20.000 Yeah.

01:35:21.000 Yeah.

01:35:21.000 And we've done our sixth movie together.

01:35:24.000 Oh, yeah.

01:35:25.000 So we've been, you know, we got two, two, our teenagers are, we got one less.

01:35:31.000 Well, we got two left in the house going to college now.

01:35:34.000 So, you know, we're about to be nested.

01:35:37.000 Yeah, man.

01:35:38.000 So, yeah, it's wild how these things kind of connect.

01:35:42.000 It is wild.

01:35:43.000 It is wild.

01:35:44.000 Yeah.

01:35:45.000 Josh is one of the, he's like one of the best examples to me of when people think of a martial artist or think of a cage fighter, former UFC heavyweight champion.

01:35:56.000 And you think of a guy like, oh, probably some brute, some dude.

01:35:59.000 Have a conversation with him.

01:36:01.000 Yes.

01:36:01.000 And you realize the depth of his intellect and the depth of his knowledge, like how much he knows about Nietzsche.

01:36:08.000 He can quote Nietzsche.

01:36:09.000 Like, he's so well read.

01:36:09.000 Oh, my God.

01:36:11.000 He makes his own whiskey.

01:36:13.000 You know, like, he's a very interesting guy.

01:36:13.000 Yeah.

01:36:16.000 Man, what a Renaissance guy, bro.

01:36:17.000 Exactly.

01:36:18.000 A real Renaissance guy.

01:36:19.000 Yeah, we usually have the same birthday.

01:36:20.000 So sometimes we throw parties together.

01:36:23.000 Yeah, when he's in town.

01:36:25.000 He's always in Japan and just all over the place, man.

01:36:28.000 He's like, he's an amazing human being.

01:36:30.000 He really is.

01:36:31.000 Yeah.

01:36:32.000 And again, one of the best examples, like when people have a stereotype of what they think a cage fighter is.

01:36:38.000 And Josh was the youngest ever UFC heavyweight champion.

01:36:41.000 Yeah.

01:36:42.000 And man, that's probably like I've trained more with him than so many people.

01:36:47.000 Like, you know, and it's just what a great friendship and what a inspirational thinking person.

01:36:56.000 You know, and you know, so yeah, and you know, he did Never Back Down three with me.

01:37:04.000 We shot that in Thailand.

01:37:05.000 Oh, huh.

01:37:06.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:37:07.000 What is it like training in Thailand?

01:37:09.000 That's got to be fun.

01:37:10.000 Oh, man.

01:37:11.000 Kind of hot.

01:37:13.000 Yeah, but the motherland of Muay Thai.

01:37:15.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:37:16.000 Again, like with every style, it's strengths and its weaknesses.

01:37:20.000 You know, a lot of them, you know, a lot of things are around, you know, they go around and not straight, right?

01:37:26.000 Straight, you know, of course, the quickest distance between two points is a straight line.

01:37:34.000 So it's not a whole lot of, well, they could do with a lot more boxing technique and some of those things.

01:37:42.000 But man, talk about toughness, that kind of a thing.

01:37:46.000 But it's kind of a tragic, like how they beat the shit out of themselves.

01:37:51.000 By the time they're in their 30s, man, they're like.

01:37:53.000 Yeah, they're busted up.

01:37:55.000 Well, they start fighting when they're very, very young.

01:37:57.000 But it's also led to them training so intelligently.

01:38:00.000 You know, one of the things about Thai training, they don't spar like a lot of Americans do, where they beat the fuck out of each other.

01:38:06.000 They play spar.

01:38:08.000 And that play sparring allows them to not get beat up by the time they get into the ring on Saturday because a lot of them are fighting every week.

01:38:08.000 Yeah.

01:38:16.000 So they do touch sparring.

01:38:19.000 And a lot of people say, oh, you can't get good touch barring.

01:38:21.000 Well, you certainly can.

01:38:23.000 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:38:24.000 Especially when you're fighting every weekend.

01:38:26.000 That's probably the best way to do it because you're just working on timing, pattern recognition, and just getting your reps in.

01:38:26.000 Yeah.

01:38:36.000 Yeah, just like with jiu-jitsu, of course, when you don't muscle things, when the technique, you let the technique do its thing.

01:38:43.000 That's so much better.

01:38:44.000 Right.

01:38:45.000 And you maintain so much better as well.

01:38:48.000 Right.

01:38:49.000 And I think one of the best examples of that is like Sanchai, because Sanchai is in his 40s.

01:38:54.000 He's still fucking people up.

01:38:55.000 It's crazy watching that guy fight.

01:38:57.000 But you look at him, a very unassuming guy.

01:39:01.000 He's not ripped.

01:39:02.000 He's an older guy, but he's just his timing and his smoothness and the way he moves.

01:39:08.000 That's very playful.

01:39:10.000 He's just fucking people up.

01:39:11.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:39:13.000 Man, it makes me.

01:39:14.000 I miss Thailand.

01:39:15.000 I actually did my, we did our wedding ceremony in Thailand.

01:39:19.000 Yeah, and you know who was who who officiated part of it was Tony Ja.

01:39:19.000 Oh, wow.

01:39:25.000 Oh, really?

01:39:25.000 Tony Ja did the Buddhist part of our wedding.

01:39:28.000 He did the water blessing, and he also sang at the wedding.

01:39:32.000 Yeah, yeah, he's cool.

01:39:34.000 He's like Mong Bak. 0.98

01:39:35.000 Yes, yes.

01:39:36.000 Yeah.

01:39:37.000 One of the greatest martial artists ever.

01:39:39.000 What a great movie that was.

01:39:40.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:39:41.000 For martial arts technique.

01:39:42.000 That was like one of the first times real true Muay Thai was exhibited in a film.

01:39:47.000 Absolutely.

01:39:47.000 Super high level.

01:39:48.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:39:49.000 And Tony, just, my God, like, he would do these incredible feats in front of you.

01:39:54.000 Just unbelievable.

01:39:56.000 He could do a somersault, hit you in the shoulder, and just tap you like that with your foot, with his foot.

01:40:04.000 He had that much control.

01:40:06.000 It's unbelievable.

01:40:07.000 Yeah.

01:40:09.000 He was sick recently, but I think he's overcoming, I think it was, I think it was a C-word, man.

01:40:17.000 Yeah.

01:40:18.000 And I haven't talked to him in a minute.

01:40:19.000 I just found out about it like about, I don't know, a couple weeks ago.

01:40:24.000 Yeah.

01:40:25.000 I knew he got thinner, but I'm hoping that he's better now.

01:40:30.000 Yeah, he's something else.

01:40:30.000 He's a legend.

01:40:31.000 It's so fascinating to me how different parts of the world develop a different style of martial arts.

01:40:37.000 And Thailand in particular, because of the fact that there was so much gambling and there were so many fights that they developed this very heavy leg kick, clinch, elbow, knee style.

01:40:49.000 It was just very different than a lot of the other styles.

01:40:49.000 Yeah.

01:40:53.000 And for a long time was really dominating in kickboxing.

01:40:57.000 But then you're starting to see other styles, like particularly a lot of Kyokushin guys now.

01:41:01.000 Yeah.

01:41:02.000 Specifically out of Japan.

01:41:04.000 Have you ever seen this kid, Yuki Yoza?

01:41:07.000 Is he Kyokushin?

01:41:08.000 Yeah, Kyokushin guy out of Japan who's dominating people. 1.00

01:41:12.000 He fights very different, man.

01:41:14.000 He's fucking up a lot of Thai guys with calf kicks. 1.00

01:41:18.000 Okay.

01:41:19.000 God, dude.

01:41:19.000 No, no, I hadn't heard.

01:41:21.000 I just officiated a Kyokushin tournament yesterday.

01:41:25.000 Sunday.

01:41:26.000 Was that two days ago?

01:41:28.000 Yeah.

01:41:30.000 I'm still connected in the Kyokushin.

01:41:31.000 I mean, been doing that since I was a kid.

01:41:35.000 Well, you did the whole thing, like, where you have to fight like 100 guys in a day.

01:41:38.000 You did all that.

01:41:39.000 I've done a 30-man.

01:41:40.000 I haven't done 100.

01:41:43.000 I'm exaggerating, but it's like a lot of people.

01:41:45.000 Yeah, yeah, which is the toughest.

01:41:47.000 Honestly, I love it.

01:41:49.000 It was the toughest thing I ever had to really face because you come to a point where you want to give up and you have to just kind of walk the burning sands.

01:42:00.000 What is it like walking the next day?

01:42:03.000 Man, I had, I mean, I remember the first time I did a 10-man, and I had several knees on my legs, put it that way.

01:42:11.000 Because they destroy your legs so bad.

01:42:14.000 Right.

01:42:14.000 Yeah.

01:42:15.000 I did a 20-man one other time and made the mistake of having a, I had like a energy drink beforehand, which is stupid because now my heart is racing higher than normal.

01:42:27.000 And so it made it even harder.

01:42:29.000 But somewhere around, like inevitably, you get to a place where I remember the 12th guy, I'm like, what the fuck are you doing?

01:42:38.000 Why are you here?

01:42:39.000 You know, but you had to dig deep.

01:42:41.000 And you got 18 more to go.

01:42:42.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:42:43.000 So I'm like, man, but honestly.

01:42:46.000 It's such a hard style.

01:42:47.000 Yeah, but man, it's something about getting, you know, because you're going to be faced with yourself.

01:42:53.000 You're going to be, you want to quit and you have to just dig down and get through it.

01:43:00.000 And there's nothing like it when you accomplish it because you know where you can go.

01:43:08.000 You know that most of the time you tell yourself you're done.

01:43:13.000 You're not.

01:43:15.000 But what a valuable lesson it is to know that about yourself.

01:43:19.000 Yeah.

01:43:20.000 And you can't, there's no substitute for that.

01:43:24.000 And it's just something that you just benefit.

01:43:28.000 I remember the last time I did this, we had to train out in Banff, Canada.

01:43:35.000 Because usually these things are in Japan.

01:43:38.000 And people from all over the style, they come and they train.

01:43:42.000 You're like training eight hours a day.

01:43:44.000 You got these little lunch breaks.

01:43:46.000 And I didn't think it through.

01:43:50.000 I think the last one was like about five, six years ago.

01:43:54.000 I wanted to challenge myself.

01:43:56.000 I wanted to do this, but I'm by myself.

01:43:58.000 And most people come with family members and all that kind of stuff.

01:44:01.000 So you're by yourself, you're a movie star.

01:44:04.000 Yeah, and I had the Target on my back.

01:44:06.000 Of course.

01:44:08.000 And it's like we'd have a training thing, and then you got a certain amount of time to go eat, but then people want to take pictures of me.

01:44:15.000 And I'm the last guy to get into the lunch thing.

01:44:19.000 And then I was like, oh, shit, I got 10 minutes to eat, and then I got to get back in the next training session.

01:44:24.000 And you have a full stomach.

01:44:26.000 Yeah, and then you got like, I mean, it kind of sucked, but I taught myself something.

01:44:33.000 I said, you know, you could be three hours in.

01:44:35.000 I tell myself, I just got here.

01:44:37.000 I just got here.

01:44:38.000 And I dig deeper and whatever.

01:44:40.000 And then the last few days, you're just fighting down to the last person.

01:44:44.000 And, you know, there's people that's like, you know, they got their eye on you because like, you know, I've got the bullseye on me.

01:44:50.000 But the great thing is, dude, like I say, I learned a lot.

01:44:55.000 I'm doing footwork with Frankie for years.

01:44:58.000 I'm a boxing technique.

01:45:00.000 I've got Benior Kides.

01:45:03.000 Bill Wallace was my instructor.

01:45:05.000 I've got so many things in my arsenal.

01:45:09.000 And to test myself, it's such a great benefit to, you know, and it was weird because I was thinking like, am I insane?

01:45:20.000 Because I had a movie that I was going to be starting like a week later.

01:45:24.000 I could have just been messed up.

01:45:26.000 I could have had a broken leg or whatever.

01:45:27.000 A lot of times you leave with a souvenir, they call it.

01:45:31.000 Like, you know, when you train in Japan, a lot of the Japanese want to give you a souvenir.

01:45:35.000 That means a broken bone.

01:45:37.000 But I had to try to, you know, overcome that.

01:45:40.000 So in life, especially in this kind of coddled life I'm living, I don't get a chance to test myself that much.

01:45:52.000 Right.

01:45:52.000 Right?

01:45:53.000 And, you know, yeah, I had to, you know, listen to my own complaints and shut the fuck up and get through it.

01:46:01.000 Yeah.

01:46:02.000 Oh, it's not fair because everybody's taking pictures and you're doing this and I'm by myself.

01:46:07.000 No, no, that's not, the point is, get through it, you know?

01:46:12.000 And I'm so glad to do that.

01:46:14.000 And I always like to, that's why I like to train with champions and stuff because, you know, that's you want you want to get through things.

01:46:23.000 It should be, you should be tested.

01:46:26.000 I mean, as a man, if I had a religion, a large part of it, if I was the head of my own religious cult, would be that men go through something.

01:46:36.000 There's a rites of passage.

01:46:38.000 You got to know how to protect yourself and your family and your loved ones.

01:46:38.000 Yes.

01:46:42.000 That to me is.

01:46:43.000 is paramount.

01:46:45.000 You just have to know what's inside of you.

01:46:47.000 And the only way to find out is to test it.

01:46:50.000 Exactly.

01:46:50.000 Because otherwise you get these dudes that have their chest pumped out and they're talking loud.

01:46:55.000 Why are they doing that?

01:46:56.000 Because they want to scare people off.

01:46:58.000 Right.

01:46:58.000 Because they don't know what they're capable of.

01:47:00.000 They're terrified.

01:47:01.000 Yeah, and you can't hide from yourself.

01:47:03.000 Right.

01:47:04.000 And that's the thing.

01:47:05.000 I'm not going to bullshit myself.

01:47:07.000 I want to know, you know?

01:47:10.000 And it's great.

01:47:13.000 There's no substitute for going through that.

01:47:19.000 And that's the thing that I, why I love fighters so much.

01:47:22.000 You know, you're basically naked to the world.

01:47:27.000 Right.

01:47:29.000 You have to dig down.

01:47:30.000 You have to overcome things.

01:47:31.000 That's why I love them so much because they're our gladiators.

01:47:36.000 We live vicariously through them.

01:47:38.000 And that's why I'm a little dogged about actors receiving those accolades when they haven't done it.

01:47:47.000 You know what I mean?

01:47:48.000 Myself included.

01:47:48.000 I don't care if somebody says, oh, he's not a fighter.

01:47:51.000 He's an actor.

01:47:52.000 Fine.

01:47:52.000 You should think that way.

01:47:54.000 But personally, it's something deeper for myself.

01:47:57.000 And one person I think I identify with that is you because I've seen you.

01:48:02.000 I've seen you in the gyms back when it wasn't popular.

01:48:06.000 And we're doing it for reasons that are not, it has nothing to do with glory or ego or anything like that.

01:48:14.000 It's just for self-improvement.

01:48:17.000 You know, and that's what it's about, man, because it's about overcoming obstacles.

01:48:17.000 Yeah.

01:48:20.000 And your biggest obstacle in the world is yourself.

01:48:22.000 Yeah.

01:48:23.000 My instructor, when I was very young, told me that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential.

01:48:23.000 Yeah.

01:48:30.000 Exactly.

01:48:31.000 It's so hard.

01:48:32.000 Yeah.

01:48:32.000 And people need something hard.

01:48:34.000 Yeah.

01:48:34.000 And what about Khabib's Khabib say?

01:48:39.000 Like, what he says about discipline?

01:48:41.000 Oh, that rant.

01:48:43.000 Man, I had to record.

01:48:44.000 Oh, that.

01:48:45.000 I don't know if that rant is real.

01:48:46.000 Somebody told me that rant is AI.

01:48:48.000 What?

01:48:49.000 Yeah.

01:48:49.000 Is it AI?

01:48:50.000 Damn it.

01:48:51.000 Well, who cares?

01:48:51.000 What?

01:48:52.000 Well, yeah, it's in Khabib's voice, and I bet Khabib would agree with every word he said.

01:48:57.000 Yes, yes.

01:48:58.000 Find that rant because let's pretend it's not AI.

01:49:02.000 Or it may be one of AI's greatest contributions to martial arts.

01:49:05.000 Absolutely.

01:49:06.000 Because becoming addicted to discipline.

01:49:08.000 Yeah, every man addicted to something.

01:49:10.000 Yeah.

01:49:11.000 Oh, it's such a great rant.

01:49:13.000 Here it is.

01:49:14.000 Give me this.

01:49:16.000 It's such a fucking great rant.

01:49:18.000 Start from the beginning, too.

01:49:19.000 Every man addicted to something.

01:49:21.000 Some smoke, some drinks, some chase guns, some waste time.

01:49:24.000 But real man, he addicted to discipline.

01:49:27.000 Too early wakes, to prayer, to training, to silence.

01:49:30.000 Discipline, no need motivation.

01:49:32.000 Discipline move without feeling.

01:49:34.000 Discipline say, I go anywhere, even when tired, even when lonely.

01:49:39.000 Discipline is best addiction.

01:49:41.000 You want strong life?

01:49:43.000 Discipline build it.

01:49:44.000 You want peace?

01:49:46.000 Discipline protected.

01:49:47.000 You want respect?

01:49:48.000 Discipline earn it.

01:49:50.000 No shortcut.

01:49:51.000 Only work.

01:49:52.000 Be men with control.

01:49:53.000 Not men with excuse.

01:49:55.000 No crime.

01:49:55.000 No blame.

01:49:56.000 You want better life?

01:49:58.000 Start with better habits.

01:49:59.000 Discipline.

01:50:00.000 Every day.

01:50:01.000 Until discipline become you.

01:50:03.000 Fucking yeah.

01:50:04.000 Yeah, I don't give a damn if there's AI or whatever.

01:50:08.000 Well, kudos to the AI person that put that together.

01:50:10.000 Yeah.

01:50:12.000 That's how he lives.

01:50:13.000 So, even if it's AI, he would go, this is Akirut.

01:50:13.000 Yeah.

01:50:17.000 Yes.

01:50:17.000 Well, I'll tell you what, man, that part of the world, Dagestan, you want to talk about a hard part of the world that is developing some of the baddest motherfuckers.

01:50:25.000 Even in Muay Thai, there's this cat coming out of Muay Thai out of Dagestan right now, Azadullah Iman Gazaliev, who's like 22 years old, and he is fucking everybody up.

01:50:38.000 A Dagestani Muay Thai fighter who has his own style.

01:50:42.000 He's this tall, lanky dude who's one of the most terrifying strikers alive right now.

01:50:47.000 A lot of people think he's the best striker alive.

01:50:49.000 Oh, man.

01:50:50.000 I think he's 22, 22 or 23 years old.

01:50:53.000 And he's just fucking everybody up.

01:50:55.000 He fights for one FC.

01:50:57.000 Give me a highlight reel of this cat.

01:50:59.000 This is just a long fight, I guess.

01:51:01.000 I don't know.

01:51:04.000 The highlight reel didn't pop up right away, so I just want to win the first fight.

01:51:07.000 That's it.

01:51:07.000 Best technical striker in the world.

01:51:08.000 That's it.

01:51:09.000 Click on that.

01:51:10.000 Give me some of this.

01:51:12.000 Just start it from the beginning.

01:51:13.000 This dude, that tall dude with the beard, Azadullah Iman Gazaliev.

01:51:19.000 Watch this motherfucker. 1.00

01:51:21.000 What a style he has.

01:51:22.000 I mean, it's just this long, tall, lanky dude, perfect timing and measurement.

01:51:28.000 And he just starts piecing dudes up.

01:51:32.000 I think this is like his full fight.

01:51:34.000 Yeah, well, I don't think so.

01:51:35.000 If you scoot ahead, I think he fucks this guy up pretty quick.

01:51:38.000 I've seen this fight.

01:51:40.000 This guy he catches with one shot, but some dudes not so lucky.

01:51:46.000 Oh, man.

01:51:47.000 Yeah, that was one shot.

01:51:48.000 But it keeps going.

01:51:49.000 And then give me the next fight.

01:51:52.000 He just starts lighting guys on fire, including Thais. 1.00

01:51:56.000 And they don't know what the fuck is going on because he fights different than them.

01:52:01.000 I mean, he's a Muay Thai fighter.

01:52:02.000 He's got that straight, you know, he's exploiting the fact that they got so much round technique.

01:52:08.000 Exactly.

01:52:09.000 A lot of front kicks up the middle, and especially to the face. 0.91

01:52:12.000 But also his spinning attacks.

01:52:15.000 He's got wicked spinning attacks, man.

01:52:17.000 And also comes off angle a lot.

01:52:19.000 His head's never on the center line.

01:52:22.000 Super fucking technical.

01:52:24.000 But just lighting dudes on fire.

01:52:29.000 And just an attacker, always attacking.

01:52:33.000 And has the benefit of that range, that long range.

01:52:36.000 Yeah.

01:52:38.000 I mean, dude is incredible, incredible.

01:52:43.000 And again, 22 years old.

01:52:46.000 Like, look at that.

01:52:47.000 So he's combining like Taegmundo techniques, karate techniques, and precision Muay Thai.

01:52:56.000 I mean, the problem with this, this, this, not this style, but this form, is that a lot of people aren't seeing it.

01:53:03.000 One FC is doing a really good job of highlighting a lot of like elite Muay Thai fighters.

01:53:08.000 You know, they have Tawan Chai over there and Sidichai and all these like high-level guys.

01:53:13.000 But in America, this, for whatever reason, has not caught on.

01:53:17.000 And the only way this guy's going to get the kind of attention that I think he deserves is if he gets into MMA.

01:53:23.000 Yeah, look at his axe kick, spinning back fist.

01:53:23.000 Boom.

01:53:26.000 Boom.

01:53:28.000 His straight rights are no joke.

01:53:30.000 He's a laser beam.

01:53:31.000 He's so focused.

01:53:33.000 He's so good, man.

01:53:34.000 So good.

01:53:35.000 Yeah.

01:53:36.000 So the Dagestanis are now entering into Muay Thai, which is a terrible sign for all these Muay Thai guys. 1.00

01:53:43.000 Yeah, yeah, man.

01:53:44.000 Those are hard people.

01:53:46.000 Hard people start at a very young age.

01:53:50.000 I mean, a very young age.

01:53:51.000 And also, Dagestanis now, because of Khabib and Islam, they all know that this is a pathway to greatness.

01:53:58.000 Yes, yeah.

01:53:59.000 And so there's heroes and they're coming Ankhalayev.

01:54:02.000 There's all these guys that have been world champions out of Dagestan now.

01:54:05.000 So it's like you're seeing all these guys come out of there and some of these young guys that are coming up are so good.

01:54:11.000 They're so good.

01:54:12.000 But this is fascinating to me that you take a guy who's adapted this Thai style, but then morphed it into something that's different.

01:54:20.000 And again, like you were saying, a lot of straight techniques.

01:54:23.000 Especially when you're a tall guy like that for the weight class.

01:54:23.000 Oh, yeah.

01:54:26.000 I think he fights at 145.

01:54:27.000 And when you're that tall at 145, you've got those straight shots down the middle.

01:54:32.000 Yeah, like his right is just like you can't really see it.

01:54:35.000 You know, right directly at him.

01:54:37.000 But it's also the hooks, too.

01:54:38.000 His hooks are coming around the guard.

01:54:40.000 Like everything is precise and his accuracy is spectacular.

01:54:40.000 Right, right.

01:54:45.000 Yeah.

01:54:46.000 I'm a student, obviously.

01:54:49.000 I watch every fight I can.

01:54:52.000 I watch kickboxing.

01:54:53.000 I watch Muay Thai.

01:54:55.000 I watch Jiu-Jitsu matches.

01:54:56.000 I watch it all.

01:54:57.000 But I'm always fascinated by these cats that stand out.

01:55:01.000 And this guy just stands out.

01:55:03.000 Yeah.

01:55:04.000 It's great when somebody knows how to use their length like that.

01:55:06.000 Yeah.

01:55:07.000 Yeah.

01:55:08.000 Well, Yuki Yoza, the Kyokushin guy that I was telling you, totally different.

01:55:11.000 What this guy's doing is shelling up and getting in tight on guys and kicking the fuck out of their inner thigh, outer calf, lower, like he's chopping at their legs.

01:55:21.000 So even Thai guys don't know what to do because they're not used to guys kicking their calves like this guy.

01:55:27.000 Right.

01:55:28.000 So he's inside going shin to shin.

01:55:30.000 And you know as well as anybody, Kyokushin guys have some of the most conditioned shins in the world. 1.00

01:55:34.000 They're always battering shin to shin.

01:55:37.000 And this dude is just getting in.

01:55:38.000 And you see in the second round, a lot of these Thai guys like, oh, fuck, I can't walk. 1.00

01:55:42.000 I can't move right.

01:55:44.000 My calves don't work anymore.

01:55:46.000 So the calf kick, which is really kind of revolutionized MMA.

01:55:50.000 It's changed MMA because one, two hard calf kicks, you're compromised.

01:55:55.000 You're not moving right anymore.

01:55:56.000 And you're not pivoting off that foot when you're punching.

01:55:58.000 So your punching power is diminished.

01:56:01.000 This Yuki Yoza guy is like putting it on Thai guys with it. 0.92

01:56:05.000 That's something.

01:56:05.000 I mean, especially for a Kyokushin guy to, I mean, the knock with Kyokushin, I've been doing it ever since I was a kid.

01:56:12.000 It's just that not developing facial facial blocks.

01:56:19.000 Well, this guy has incorporated Russian-style boxing.

01:56:24.000 He's got Russian-style boxing with Kyokushin karate techniques.

01:56:27.000 Well, yeah, but with that Russian-style boxing, they really kind of mastered the non-telegraph kind of because it looks like they're not going fast.

01:56:37.000 Yukiyoza highlight reel.

01:56:40.000 There's a bunch of fights with him and Thai guys.

01:56:43.000 And, you know, the first round, Thai guys are doing their thing, and it looks like a normal fight, but the Yuki Yoza just starts chopping at those calves inside. 0.94

01:56:52.000 And he's like multiple kicks to the calf from in tight and close.

01:56:56.000 Yeah, that's punishing.

01:56:58.000 And you see guys like playing at, like, go ahead, kick me, kick me.

01:57:01.000 And then after a while, they're like, fuck, don't kick me anymore.

01:57:04.000 They're trying to get matcha with him, but then it's not working.

01:57:07.000 But yeah, like, what would it take to develop like this is Yuki Yoza?

01:57:14.000 Like, like, oh, your thighs. 0.65

01:57:17.000 You see how he's like, he chop, he's chopping when he's getting tight.

01:57:21.000 Look at this, always.

01:57:22.000 Look at how much he's utilizing all the karate techniques, but also in tight just destroys guys' legs.

01:57:31.000 But also spinning back kicks, all that other shit.

01:57:34.000 But look at his boxing is excellent too.

01:57:37.000 Ooh.

01:57:37.000 A lot of Muay Thai stuff, dumping people.

01:57:39.000 But look at that.

01:57:40.000 He's constantly kicking the inside of the leg.

01:57:43.000 When they're committing to kicks, he's taking their legs out.

01:57:47.000 This dude, one of my favorite guys to watch right now.

01:57:50.000 Like, look, there's a Thai guy, man.

01:57:51.000 He's just destroying their legs, man.

01:57:54.000 Man.

01:57:55.000 An excellent movement.

01:57:57.000 Yeah.

01:57:57.000 And he comes out of a very high-level gym in Japan that's produced a lot of really Masasaki Nori, another guy who's like that, who's a very similar guy who beat Tawan Chai recently.

01:58:10.000 Like these guys are just destroying people's legs.

01:58:14.000 So they're utilizing a lot of the question mark kicks, a lot of the stuff that evolved in Kyokushin, but putting it into kickboxing also with the toughness that is in a lot of the Kyokushin fighters.

01:58:27.000 Yeah, I see them slip into a Superman.

01:58:31.000 Yeah.

01:58:32.000 Everybody's going to be susceptible for that.

01:58:34.000 If you got a kick, a leg kick, that's that legitimate.

01:58:39.000 Yeah, they're going to bite on that.

01:58:40.000 It's going to be open for them.

01:58:41.000 And then he uses a Superman punch.

01:58:42.000 Yeah.

01:58:43.000 And another very young guy.

01:58:43.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:58:43.000 Yeah.

01:58:45.000 So there's these people that are exploiting these holes and these styles because some of these Thai guys are so hard to beat. 1.00

01:58:53.000 By the time they're competing and they're 25 years old, they might have 150 fights, so much experience.

01:58:59.000 But this cat's figuring them out, man.

01:59:02.000 It's really interesting to watch.

01:59:04.000 Yeah, I would love to see.

01:59:06.000 I wish there was, like, some kind of governing body that would get all the, like, some, like, superstars or whatever.

01:59:13.000 Get this guy versus this guy from.

01:59:15.000 Well, one is doing that a lot.

01:59:17.000 But, you know, one, unfortunately, is not that popular in America.

01:59:21.000 What I love about one is they'll have grappling competitions.

01:59:24.000 They'll have kickboxing.

01:59:26.000 They'll have Muay Thai, and then they'll have MMA.

01:59:28.000 They'll have them all combined on one card.

01:59:30.000 One is the one that Michael Chevello is on, right?

01:59:33.000 Well, he was on that.

01:59:35.000 Michael Chevelle's not with one anymore.

01:59:37.000 Michael Chevelle is one of the best commentators.

01:59:39.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:59:40.000 He's excellent.

01:59:41.000 Great guy, too.

01:59:42.000 I'll probably be seeing him in another three weeks.

01:59:46.000 You going to Australia?

01:59:47.000 Yeah, going to Australia.

01:59:48.000 Nice.

01:59:49.000 My wife and I, we're going to, well, we did a tour.

01:59:52.000 I do like seminars over there and meet and greets and stuff like that.

01:59:57.000 We haven't done that in a while.

01:59:58.000 But yeah, got some really good, some good fighters out there.

02:00:02.000 Oh, yeah.

02:00:02.000 John Wayne Parr.

02:00:03.000 Yeah.

02:00:04.000 You know, some great fighters have come out of Australia.

02:00:06.000 Yeah, so yeah, we're going to have some fun out there.

02:00:08.000 Yeah, they're in New Zealand.

02:00:08.000 That's awesome.

02:00:10.000 Oh, yeah, another hotbed.

02:00:13.000 Another hotbed for fighters.

02:00:13.000 Oh, yeah.

02:00:14.000 Well, it's just warrior cultures.

02:00:16.000 Absolutely.

02:00:17.000 Warrior history.

02:00:18.000 Does possibly?

02:00:19.000 I've never met an Australian that I didn't like.

02:00:22.000 They're the nicest fucking people.

02:00:22.000 I know.

02:00:24.000 They're so cool, yeah.

02:00:25.000 Yeah, they're the coolest people.

02:00:26.000 They're friendly, easygoing.

02:00:29.000 Yeah, you have rites of passage still.

02:00:31.000 You know, places like that.

02:00:32.000 You know, you, I mean, it's, that's one thing that is sad about United States.

02:00:38.000 It's like, we're not making men anymore.

02:00:40.000 Not a lot of them.

02:00:41.000 No, no.

02:00:42.000 When they are, they stand out.

02:00:43.000 Yeah, you know, that's why it's like a lot of times in these movies, if you have an alpha male, a lot of times that alpha male, that American alpha male is being played by an Australian or somebody from the Chris Entertainment.

02:00:56.000 Yeah, it's so, you know, it's like it's very rarely an American.

02:01:01.000 It's like such a trip, man.

02:01:02.000 Well, masculinity is demonized here for some strange reason over the last couple of decades.

02:01:08.000 Bro, I saw the beginning of a lot of it because, you know, like I say, I was a school teacher and I was right on the forefront saying, like, everybody gets a trophy.

02:01:17.000 You know, these kids, you know, they're, you know, it's about their self-esteem and you got to protect that.

02:01:23.000 I'm like, come on.

02:01:24.000 And, you know, taking away competition.

02:01:26.000 Yeah.

02:01:27.000 That just, I saw the beginning of that shit.

02:01:29.000 And it's just so, so bad.

02:01:31.000 These kids don't know how to deal with loss or anything.

02:01:35.000 And then they end up shooting the classroom.

02:01:37.000 Right.

02:01:37.000 You know, it's, yeah.

02:01:39.000 Dealing with loss is one of the most important lessons you could ever learn.

02:01:42.000 If you want to get better, lose.

02:01:44.000 Yeah.

02:01:45.000 Losing is the best medicine because you lose.

02:01:48.000 I don't ever want to feel that again.

02:01:50.000 And then you start thinking about all the things that you cut corners on, all the things that you didn't do.

02:01:55.000 What can I do differently to make sure that that never happens again?

02:01:57.000 That I never feel that feeling.

02:01:59.000 Or you quit.

02:02:00.000 Those are the two options.

02:02:01.000 Either you get way better or you quit.

02:02:03.000 But winning, sometimes you don't learn.

02:02:06.000 You know, you go, well, I'm doing the right thing.

02:02:08.000 I'm getting better.

02:02:08.000 I'm winning.

02:02:09.000 Developing confidence, that's good, but man, sometimes a loss is the best medicine.

02:02:13.000 Yeah, man, I realized something when I was, you know, I was born with some gifts, okay?

02:02:23.000 I did one thing that got me into college is decathlon.

02:02:28.000 As a fluke, I jumped into a race against one of the fastest guys on the track team and beat him, right?

02:02:36.000 And that was just a fluke.

02:02:37.000 And the coach saw that.

02:02:39.000 The track coach saw that and was like, oh my God, you're fucking running for the school.

02:02:44.000 I was like, oh, okay.

02:02:45.000 Like, I was just like, I didn't have anybody, any kind of adult that took a liking to me like that.

02:02:52.000 And next thing you know, I'm on the track team.

02:02:54.000 And I, and I started, I mean, I was really good.

02:02:59.000 And then I wound up going to college because of that.

02:03:02.000 And incidentally, that's the stuff that really kind of taught me to kind of evolve my martial arts.

02:03:13.000 Because nowhere is there a benefit of like cutting off fractions of seconds in movement like track.

02:03:24.000 Like when I'm doing the shot put.

02:03:27.000 Well, a lot of times I was competing against people that were ginormous and all they had to do is stick their arm out and their arc was going to be better than mine.

02:03:36.000 Well, I had to generate enough power to go at a 45 degree angle and inertia and all that to get past them.

02:03:46.000 And with running, of course, if you shoot the gun off, all your motion has to go forward.

02:03:53.000 If you go backward, you're going to be a step behind everybody.

02:03:57.000 So as far as efficiency of motion, all the things I had to do with track, I started applying and fighting.

02:04:05.000 And that's what kind of gave me cheat codes into things to where being super efficient really helped, right?

02:04:13.000 And so one thing would like kind of help the other.

02:04:18.000 But like, yeah, a lot of my whole track thing was a great benefit.

02:04:25.000 But I did learn that I was kind of in a way like the Bo Jacksons or the Herschel Walkers.

02:04:34.000 I was gifted.

02:04:36.000 And so when I would fight, I was, you know, I was a big guy that was fast.

02:04:42.000 And it didn't, you know, that was kind of rare.

02:04:45.000 So fighting was easy to me.

02:04:49.000 But I learned that when I was as the celebrated fighter, that was less of a good martial artist because then I kind of would kind of flake off other things.

02:05:02.000 Like I wasn't, I didn't try as hard as other people.

02:05:06.000 And that's another thing I don't know if Khabib really said, but it was a thing that he said about those gifted people, a lot of people who are gifted were not the best fighters.

02:05:17.000 Yeah, that is a quote from him.

02:05:19.000 Exactly.

02:05:20.000 And I took that, you know, that same thing because I realized, dude, you're doing it wrong.

02:05:27.000 You're, I mean, my philosophy was like, I feel I adapted the philosophy of, okay, say this kid, Sean, is 140 pounds, and there's me, and it takes me a thousand kicks to become fatigued, and it takes him 100 kicks to become fatigued.

02:05:45.000 And he pushes to 120, and I push to 1,001.

02:05:50.000 Who's the better martial artist?

02:05:52.000 He is.

02:05:54.000 Because he's pushed into his comfort zone.

02:05:57.000 He's pushing himself further.

02:06:00.000 What if he one day gets to 1,000?

02:06:04.000 For him to go from a hundred to a thousand, that's going to be a quality 900 that I don't have.

02:06:11.000 Me being the gifted one, right?

02:06:14.000 I'm looking at it using the comparative method, saying, Well, you know, you know, I mean, at the end of the year, I used to kick a basketball rim.

02:06:22.000 You know, I had that ability.

02:06:24.000 But when I started thinking about, well, what I compare myself to other people, that was the wrong thing.

02:06:31.000 So I said, No, I'm going to be like Sean.

02:06:34.000 I want to train to my ability, not in comparison to someone else.

02:06:42.000 And that really taught me something as far as like, again, why I put myself through these things and the benefit of it by really like when what the martial arts really teaches is, you know, and the fact that, yeah, I had these gifts, but if I if I use those gifts as a crutch, I'm limiting what I can be.

02:07:07.000 Right.

02:07:08.000 You're limiting your potential.

02:07:09.000 Exactly.

02:07:10.000 And so.

02:07:10.000 And oftentimes it's too easy for the gifted guys.

02:07:14.000 And so they kind of slack off.

02:07:16.000 So, yeah, that's that's and I realized that's what I was doing.

02:07:16.000 Yeah.

02:07:16.000 Right.

02:07:20.000 They also are not as comfortable with struggle.

02:07:23.000 Absolutely.

02:07:24.000 And being comfortable with struggle is a very important part of growth.

02:07:27.000 And it's a mixed message because we start to admire the freak sometimes.

02:07:27.000 Yeah.

02:07:39.000 We, as men, we celebrate the pugilists a lot. 0.75

02:07:43.000 And that's kind of a thing where it came full circle to where, okay, yeah, I'm able to do these things, but is that really me?

02:07:52.000 Is that the limit of what I can be?

02:07:56.000 And by having someone else go, oh, yeah, you can do this or that.

02:08:02.000 That's kind of a that's not really the crux of it.

02:08:07.000 You know what I mean?

02:08:07.000 Right.

02:08:08.000 And it's in and it's really about like, yeah, there's going to be people that's going to praise what you can do physically.

02:08:16.000 But is that, but I realized there was a point where that was kind of retarding where I could be mentally and what I can really become.

02:08:27.000 We also have a responsibility to those gifts.

02:08:29.000 Yeah.

02:08:30.000 Right.

02:08:30.000 Because if you are gifted athletically, you have a responsibility of achieving the full potential because you've been given this thing by genetics, by life, by God, this thing where you are faster, you move quicker, you have more explosive power.

02:08:45.000 But are you going to harness that gift and allow it to reach its full potential?

02:08:50.000 And when you do that, then you get a Mike Tyson.

02:08:53.000 When you do that, then you get a Michael Jordan.

02:08:55.000 You do that, then you get an elite of the elite.

02:08:57.000 You get what David Goggins always liked to call uncommon amongst uncommon men.

02:09:02.000 Right, right.

02:09:03.000 And that's the real hard thing to do.

02:09:06.000 Because so many of these really gifted guys in the gym, they always kind of peter off and disappear.

02:09:12.000 And when they're in a fight where they fight another gifted guy that maybe trained a little harder than them, maybe he's got a little bit more experience, they realize, like, man, I don't want to struggle like that.

02:09:21.000 I don't like that.

02:09:22.000 I don't like that feeling.

02:09:23.000 I like beating up guys in the gym that are below me.

02:09:25.000 Yeah, and then you got to deal with that person in the mirror.

02:09:29.000 Yeah.

02:09:30.000 And that's not hard.

02:09:31.000 It's hard for guys when they're the hammer their whole life.

02:09:34.000 And then one day they're the nail.

02:09:35.000 Yeah.

02:09:35.000 And you see guys that are like really elite that are dominating and then one day they get fucked up and then you never see them again.

02:09:43.000 But then you'll see the guy who like gets fucked up a bunch of times and keeps showing up. 0.69

02:09:43.000 Oftentimes. 0.69

02:09:48.000 He keeps showing up and keeps learning.

02:09:50.000 And then you realize like, oh, this guy is now elite.

02:09:52.000 Yeah, and those are the true heroes to me.

02:09:54.000 Right.

02:09:55.000 You know, there's people I don't want, you know, sometimes you get in trouble pointing out people.

02:10:02.000 Like, I don't want to say somebody like Izzy or whatever, but like you see the people who are used to having that ability over other people and when it gets hard.

02:10:13.000 Right.

02:10:14.000 Right.

02:10:14.000 And then it's like even sometimes there's a talk about even Tyson.

02:10:20.000 And as just people who are just spectators, when you go, oh man, there was this guy so gifted.

02:10:28.000 Now, some of the knock has been that when it became hard, you hadn't seen him dig down and overcome that thing.

02:10:41.000 Right, right.

02:10:41.000 You know, because a lot of times when it got hard, it was like he just, you know, kind of tapped out.

02:10:47.000 Yeah.

02:10:48.000 And so that's something that, you know, not to disparage him, but just as people are looking at life, we look at those things and we can take a lot of meaning from that and apply that and say, oh, wow, is, I mean, if that's on him to say, oh, was that the case?

02:11:08.000 Or is it something that, I don't know.

02:11:12.000 I think with Mike, it's a very special case because I think he had the elite coaching in the beginning with Customato and training.

02:11:21.000 And then when Cuss died, he was kind of left with all this amazing ability that he had developed when he was young, but not with the elite coaching.

02:11:32.000 Like, so if Mike had left when Customato died, if he had then went to Emmanuel Stewart, or if the, you know what I'm saying?

02:11:41.000 Because he had then went to an elite boxing coach and had someone analyze his style and someone he really respected.

02:11:48.000 Respected, yes, absolutely.

02:11:49.000 That he could still maintain that same level of discipline when he was the 21-year-old dominating the world.

02:11:55.000 Oh, my God.

02:11:56.000 But he has so much pressure on him.

02:11:58.000 So much.

02:11:59.000 Because, you know, I had to play him, so I had to study everything he did.

02:12:02.000 And it's interesting because, oh, my God, like, I always viewed him as somebody who was always looking for a father figure.

02:12:09.000 Yes.

02:12:10.000 And I would study him.

02:12:11.000 And, you know, with Customato, he would dress like Customato.

02:12:15.000 He's a young black guy from Brooklyn with suspenders.

02:12:19.000 Right.

02:12:21.000 You know, in a cavity hat.

02:12:23.000 Like, you know.

02:12:24.000 And then when Customato was gone, he was around Kevin Rooney, and Kevin Rooney had this really fast way of talking.

02:12:32.000 And it seemed like he adapted that.

02:12:34.000 And he was with why am I blanking?

02:12:45.000 The other manager.

02:12:47.000 Jim Jacobs.

02:12:48.000 Jim Jacobs.

02:12:49.000 You know, Jim Jacobs was married.

02:12:51.000 And I think marriage became important to him at that point because he was really under the umbrella of Jim Jacobs.

02:12:58.000 And then when he was with Robin Gibbons.

02:13:02.000 With Don King.

02:13:06.000 Oh, yeah.

02:13:07.000 The N-word is every third word out of his mouth, very much like Don King.

02:13:10.000 He goes to prison.

02:13:12.000 He's got two father figures on him.

02:13:13.000 Miles Tongue and he's got Arthur Ashe on another shoulder.

02:13:20.000 And I would just notice that even speech patterns would change.

02:13:25.000 And I looked at him as, wow, here's a guy that I felt like I identified with a great deal because coming from the same kind of place.

02:13:36.000 But yeah, it's interesting because I think a lot of people don't know how much struggle he had to deal with because people think that Kevin Rooney was kind of a savior in that situation when he wasn't.

02:13:49.000 Kevin Rooney explained to me directly that he says, if you ever see Mike, please apologize for me.

02:13:58.000 Because When Mike was married to Robin Gibbons, he didn't want to do this interview.

02:14:07.000 And then turn around, Kevin Rooney did the interview.

02:14:10.000 And Kevin Rooney is like, I really messed up when I did that.

02:14:14.000 And Kevin Rooney even told me that when at the Spinx fight alone, Kevin made like over a million dollars.

02:14:24.000 He left that casino owing.

02:14:26.000 Mike had to bail him out so many times.

02:14:29.000 And so people thought, oh, Kevin Rooney is in control.

02:14:34.000 No, Mike was, I mean, he had so much pressure on him.

02:14:38.000 And I think with Don King trying to hire Mike's cohorts to help out, if he's going to hang out with him anyway, to try to just do that.

02:14:51.000 He had so much, this dude had so much pressure on him.

02:14:53.000 It's unbelievable.

02:14:55.000 And Don King definitely took advantage of that.

02:14:58.000 Yeah, I believe so.

02:15:01.000 You know, because I knew Don from, because I was always in the fight camps with Frankie Lyles.

02:15:07.000 In fact, that's how I got to first meet Mike Tyson.

02:15:10.000 When Mike was in prison, Frankie put Mike and I on the phone together.

02:15:15.000 And so I would, you know, do my little kind of interviewing of Mike while he was in prison because I was going to be playing him.

02:15:25.000 So I wanted the whole story.

02:15:27.000 Right.

02:15:28.000 And, you know, and I went to Cat Skills on my own and knocked on that door and spent time with the people he grew up with in that house.

02:15:36.000 You know, so I learned a lot.

02:15:36.000 Oh, wow.

02:15:38.000 And there's a lot that the public doesn't know and that I think he was concerned about coming out.

02:15:44.000 And it didn't.

02:15:46.000 And so it was really interesting.

02:15:51.000 I just got, I was front and center on how much pressure this guy had to deal with.

02:15:56.000 He had to kind of develop with the whole world looking over his shoulder.

02:16:00.000 Yeah.

02:16:01.000 And he was 20.

02:16:03.000 He was just crazy.

02:16:03.000 Youngest ever heavyweight champion of the world.

02:16:05.000 He went from being a 13-year-old kid with no family to being adopted by this guy who's not just training him, but also hypnotizing him.

02:16:15.000 And then he's got Jim Jacobs who exposes him to this library of all the greatest fighters of all time.

02:16:21.000 And he's watching video footage of it.

02:16:23.000 Bill Caton.

02:16:24.000 Bill Caton and Jim.

02:16:24.000 Yeah.

02:16:26.000 It's an extraordinary story because it's unlike anyone else's.

02:16:30.000 Like the environment that he was exposed to and the way it produced this guy who was unlike any heavyweight before.

02:16:40.000 I mean, in his prime, I always point to the Marvis Frazier fight.

02:16:42.000 I always tell people, you want to see like the scariest motherfucker that ever stepped into the ring, Mike Tyson versus Marvis Frazier.

02:16:49.000 He was just undeniable, just undeniable.

02:16:53.000 But that pressure, the kind of pressure that no one could explain what that's like.

02:16:58.000 There's no internet back then, so there's not as many famous people.

02:17:03.000 So like, who's he going to relate to?

02:17:06.000 Who's going to tell him what this is like?

02:17:08.000 There's no one like him.

02:17:10.000 You had Muhammad Ali, you had a few other guys that could maybe tell him what it was like.

02:17:16.000 But for the most part, he's got no roadmap.

02:17:19.000 And he's out there in this world of superstardom.

02:17:23.000 We could do whatever the fuck he wants.

02:17:25.000 Everywhere he goes, people are screaming and cheering.

02:17:27.000 And he's knocking everybody out in the first round.

02:17:29.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:17:30.000 The pressure on that, man.

02:17:32.000 And then they have to fight Holyfield.

02:17:34.000 Right.

02:17:35.000 A guy who was really kind of more like a big brother to him throughout his life, you know, his professional life.

02:17:42.000 Because, you know, Holyfield was a cruiserweight.

02:17:47.000 You know, and Holyfield was the type of guy, how you doing, Mike?

02:17:50.000 You checked on him and all that type of stuff.

02:17:52.000 Then he has to fight this guy.

02:17:53.000 You know, it was deep down, like, he's got to fight this guy who's this, he's got this reputation as a holy man, and he's all this type of stuff.

02:18:03.000 And then I remember being at that fight, and I remember the press conference, and Mike was like really manufacturing this hatred that I was like, that's not real.

02:18:15.000 Like, he's trying to dig down to really get this edge to really hate Holyfield.

02:18:21.000 And I was like, I thought that was a mistake.

02:18:25.000 But, and I don't think psychologically, he was in his game.

02:18:31.000 Right.

02:18:32.000 Holyfield had an edge on it.

02:18:34.000 I think it was also the fact that the Holy Man thing was a big deal.

02:18:34.000 Yeah.

02:18:38.000 Like, Holyfield had this incredible belief in God, and he really believed that God was looking out for him and he was going to go in there.

02:18:47.000 Yeah, and then couldn't be deterred.

02:18:49.000 Dude, the third round, I mean, look, I studied all this stuff on Mike Tyson.

02:18:55.000 Third round of that first fight got chills because think about it.

02:19:01.000 He heard something that he never heard his entire career.

02:19:05.000 Everybody started chanting for the other guy.

02:19:08.000 Right.

02:19:09.000 Holy Phil.

02:19:10.000 Holy Phil.

02:19:11.000 And I swear to you, I saw just the air come out of this guy.

02:19:15.000 Yeah.

02:19:16.000 And it was like, I've done all of this, and they're chanting for this man.

02:19:23.000 And how gracious he was, how Tyson was at the end.

02:19:30.000 I felt like that's not a new thought.

02:19:35.000 You kind of had that opinion of him going into this.

02:19:39.000 Well, Holyfield had been through the wars, right?

02:19:42.000 He had those wars with Riddick Bow.

02:19:44.000 He had the first war with Dwight Muhammad Kawi.

02:19:47.000 Remember that fight at Cruiserweight?

02:19:49.000 Go back and watch that fight.

02:19:49.000 Oh my God.

02:19:52.000 He had the war with Burt Cooper.

02:19:54.000 He had wars.

02:19:55.000 And Holyfield was unflappable.

02:19:57.000 He's like, he's like, I don't know why Mike's saying this about me, but he's just like, he never got angry.

02:20:06.000 Yeah.

02:20:07.000 Yeah.

02:20:07.000 It's like, how are you doing?

02:20:08.000 It's hard to maintain anger for that dude.

02:20:12.000 He's just like, okay, well, that's also terrifying, too, because you know, you can't get in there.

02:20:17.000 You're trying to get in that head, and it's like, you're not getting in there.

02:20:19.000 God's in there.

02:20:20.000 And then I was like, if you look at it, you know, Mike Tyson was committing to every first blow.

02:20:20.000 Yeah.

02:20:26.000 Yep.

02:20:27.000 Holyfield is a counterfighter.

02:20:30.000 Fake him.

02:20:31.000 Let him throw that counter and you got him. 0.98

02:20:34.000 And I was like, I think normally Mike knows this.

02:20:34.000 Yeah.

02:20:40.000 Holyfield's center of gravity, so different.

02:20:43.000 He's thin-legged, big up top.

02:20:46.000 Mike should be able to push him easily, easily.

02:20:50.000 I didn't see the things that I normally saw from Mike Tyson in that fight, which made me feel like this is a psychological component.

02:20:59.000 It's a psychological component, but it's also a training component because, again, he wasn't with an elite trainer at that time.

02:21:05.000 It wasn't the same as him being trained by Costa Mano.

02:21:08.000 It wasn't the same.

02:21:09.000 But he didn't have the bobbing and weaving style that he used to have.

02:21:11.000 Do you remember he caught Holyfield with the body shot and the uppercut?

02:21:15.000 Yeah.

02:21:16.000 And just like, basically, you almost said, you saw, finish him.

02:21:21.000 But he just chilled.

02:21:23.000 Do you remember that moment?

02:21:25.000 I don't specifically.

02:21:27.000 Yeah, there's a moment.

02:21:28.000 There's a moment like that that he heard him.

02:21:31.000 And Holyfield looked like it's like.

02:21:34.000 Yeah, but Holyfield would rebound.

02:21:36.000 I mean, the bow fights. 0.67

02:21:38.000 But when you look at Tyson, you look at almost everything he's done.

02:21:43.000 I thought I was about to see the beginning of the end.

02:21:46.000 And I'm like, what the?

02:21:48.000 I remember being there going, why isn't he jumping on him?

02:21:52.000 You know, me.

02:21:53.000 Hey, maybe I'm wrong, whatever, but I swear I saw that moment.

02:21:59.000 And I remember going, what's going on?

02:22:02.000 Why is any not jumping on him?

02:22:05.000 I mean, it's interesting.

02:22:06.000 It's interesting.

02:22:07.000 Psychology plays a big role in how you feel about the opponent.

02:22:11.000 And the opponent essentially holds up a mirror and it allows you to look at yourself.

02:22:15.000 And he's comparing himself to this holy man.

02:22:17.000 He probably didn't like it.

02:22:20.000 Joe, you know, I think that's the way I thought about it.

02:22:24.000 And of course, who am I to do?

02:22:25.000 But this is my opinion.

02:22:27.000 Those dudes with that kind of character, like Holyfield had at the time, those are scary guys.

02:22:32.000 Because they can't be broken mentally.

02:22:34.000 Right, right.

02:22:36.000 And if you try to break them physically and he rebounds, like, oh, God.

02:22:41.000 How much do I have left in the tank?

02:22:43.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:22:44.000 How many more of these shots can I take?

02:22:45.000 Yeah, no, it's different if somebody like taunted you.

02:22:49.000 Now you can, you know, manufacture like, you know, but when the guy's just like, okay, I'm just doing my thing.

02:22:58.000 You start going, oh, is it me?

02:23:01.000 Because you don't, then, you know, it's like that's the, that's when you had Fedora with somebody like that.

02:23:09.000 It's just like this.

02:23:10.000 It's like, you just drown yourself.

02:23:12.000 Stoic.

02:23:13.000 Because I can't derive nothing from him.

02:23:15.000 Oh, he was the best at it.

02:23:15.000 It's like.

02:23:16.000 Yeah.

02:23:17.000 Fedor was the best at it.

02:23:18.000 Fedor would be in the middle of the most chaotic war.

02:23:22.000 And it looked like he was just sipping a cup of coffee.

02:23:24.000 It's crazy.

02:23:24.000 Yeah.

02:23:25.000 There was no one like that guy.

02:23:27.000 He's one of the most unique characters.

02:23:30.000 I think we were robbed of one of the greatest heavyweight matchups of all time when they never figured out how to put Kane Velasquez versus Fedor when they were both in their primes.

02:23:40.000 Man.

02:23:41.000 Kane Velasquez is the scariest person I've ever seen, as far as I'm concerned.

02:23:48.000 Like, if there was one guy that, like, because I pride myself, I get in the ring with anybody.

02:23:53.000 That guy, man, never got tired.

02:23:57.000 Man, he's had cardio.

02:23:59.000 He had cardio for a heavyweight that was like a marathon runner.

02:24:02.000 It didn't make any sense.

02:24:03.000 He was a 240-pound guy who never got tired.

02:24:06.000 Yeah, didn't I?

02:24:07.000 Perfect technique.

02:24:08.000 Yeah, and I think the fights with Junior Dosantos.

02:24:13.000 I feel like they ruined each other.

02:24:15.000 Yes.

02:24:16.000 I feel like they ruined each other.

02:24:17.000 Well, I think certainly ruined Junior, especially the second fight.

02:24:20.000 The first fight Junior caught.

02:24:21.000 The first fight, Kane should have never took that fight.

02:24:24.000 Kane had to take that fight because it was on Fox.

02:24:26.000 It was a big deal.

02:24:27.000 It was the main event of the Fox, the first Fox card.

02:24:29.000 And Kane blew his knee out.

02:24:31.000 So if you look at that fight, Kane's wearing a knee brace.

02:24:34.000 His knee was fucked up.

02:24:35.000 Like his meniscus was torn.

02:24:37.000 He was all fucked up.

02:24:38.000 He couldn't anchor on it.

02:24:39.000 He couldn't really post on it.

02:24:41.000 And then he couldn't get out of the way.

02:24:43.000 And Junior caught him with a big right hand, cracked him, dropped him, stopped him.

02:24:46.000 And then he comes back.

02:24:47.000 Here it is.

02:24:48.000 Here's Tyson versus Holyfield.

02:24:50.000 Tyson, unleashing uppercuts from the power.

02:24:53.000 Boom.

02:24:54.000 Yep, Yeah, but I'm but Holyfield's still there.

02:24:59.000 He's still there.

02:25:02.000 If ever he has a chance, he has a chance right now.

02:25:04.000 Evander's hurt.

02:25:05.000 That right hand in a body.

02:25:07.000 You heard what he said, right?

02:25:09.000 But that took some wind out of Evander right away.

02:25:12.000 Biggest round for Mike yet.

02:25:14.000 But the thing about Evander is Evander was always there.

02:25:17.000 He had been through these kind of fights before.

02:25:19.000 But I don't know where I am, but I was there.

02:25:22.000 And something about seeing that, I felt like, oh, he's about to take him out.

02:25:28.000 But I think because Evander rebounded and Evander had a history of rebounding.

02:25:32.000 Oh, sure, sure.

02:25:33.000 Absolutely.

02:25:34.000 Of wars.

02:25:35.000 Especially when he played both fights.

02:25:37.000 It still doesn't change the fact that there was, I feel like there was an opportunity.

02:25:41.000 And that was a very untyson-like situation.

02:25:46.000 I just don't think Tyson was Tyson anymore by this time.

02:25:49.000 I mean, I think he was a one-punch guy by this time.

02:25:52.000 He wasn't cutting those crazy angles, but he would slide off to the side and rip the body and go.

02:25:57.000 He was standing right in front of guys.

02:25:59.000 Yeah.

02:25:59.000 He lost a lot of what made him special, which was the speed of combinations and the movement.

02:26:04.000 The movement is primarily because he couldn't even, he couldn't have never gotten that far if he didn't do that.

02:26:09.000 Show that Marvis Frazier fight.

02:26:11.000 Show that Marvis Frazier fight.

02:26:12.000 Tyson versus Marvis Frazier is my favorite favorite Tyson performance.

02:26:17.000 Because Marvis Frazier looked like he was going to a funeral at the beginning of the fight.

02:26:21.000 Look at him.

02:26:21.000 I mean, you feel the energy from his face.

02:26:24.000 And he didn't play the Covenant right after this with the grizzly bear just mauling out of him.

02:26:30.000 It's the same thing.

02:26:33.000 Here it is.

02:26:34.000 He's just all over Marvis, like from the beginning.

02:26:37.000 This was on ABC Wide World of Sports.

02:26:39.000 I remember watching this at home.

02:26:41.000 But look at the bobbining and the weaving.

02:26:43.000 It's not just right in front of him.

02:26:44.000 It's angles.

02:26:46.000 Like right here.

02:26:47.000 Oh, man.

02:26:47.000 Boom.

02:26:51.000 Oh, man.

02:26:54.000 That was when he was the champ.

02:26:56.000 I mean, he wasn't the champ yet, but he was the champ.

02:26:58.000 He was about to fight Trevor Burbick, but everybody was like, oh, my God, he's real.

02:27:03.000 Yeah, here's the thing that sparked some controversy.

02:27:06.000 Mike Tyson versus Muhammad Ali.

02:27:09.000 It depends on which Tyson and which Muhammad Ali.

02:27:11.000 Well, it's the best of both.

02:27:12.000 You know, you said, of course, he got his best.

02:27:14.000 The best Muhammad Ali wasn't Muhammad Ali.

02:27:16.000 I think it was Cassius Clay.

02:27:17.000 I think the best was when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams.

02:27:20.000 To me, I always tell people, like, you want to know Ali before they took his title away, before they put him on the shelf for three years because he wouldn't fight in Vietnam?

02:27:28.000 Watch Cleveland Big Cat Williams because Cleveland was a big, scary power puncher, and Muhammad Ali was just dancing around him, dancing around.

02:27:36.000 But was he bigger than Muhammad Ali, though?

02:27:39.000 See that Cleveland?

02:27:40.000 That's the thing about Muhammad Ali.

02:27:41.000 People don't realize he was like the biggest guy in the ring.

02:27:44.000 You know, he was only four pounds different than Foreman.

02:27:48.000 People don't realize because he moves around the way he moves.

02:27:51.000 But in the Cleveland Big Cat Williams days, he was lighter.

02:27:51.000 Back then.

02:27:55.000 Yeah, he was only like 215 or 220.

02:27:58.000 And Cleveland Williams was what?

02:28:00.000 He's big.

02:28:00.000 Look at the size of Cleveland.

02:28:01.000 Look at his back.

02:28:02.000 Look at the back on Cleveland.

02:28:03.000 And look at the legs, though.

02:28:05.000 Yeah, but he was a power puncher, man.

02:28:07.000 You watched somebody.

02:28:08.000 Look at his back.

02:28:09.000 Cleveland was a scary dude, man.

02:28:11.000 And he might be lean.

02:28:12.000 He might be lean, but Muhammad Ali's a big dude.

02:28:15.000 Oh, he's definitely a big dude.

02:28:16.000 I think Muhammad Ali is bigger than that guy.

02:28:19.000 But look at the movement, man.

02:28:19.000 Maybe.

02:28:21.000 Oh, absolutely.

02:28:23.000 So this movement was absent when he came back three years later.

02:28:26.000 He never fought like this again.

02:28:28.000 And when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams, Cleveland just did not know where he was.

02:28:33.000 He was 212.

02:28:34.000 Williams was 210 at weigh-in.

02:28:35.000 Oh, okay.

02:28:37.000 Well, dudes were smaller back then.

02:28:38.000 Like, think about Rocky Marciano.

02:28:39.000 He was only 185.

02:28:41.000 But the thing is, people don't realize because he's fighting like a lighter guy.

02:28:45.000 You got a bigger guy hitting guys, especially he'll trick people to coming in, and that magnifies everything.

02:28:52.000 Yeah, well, sort of, but they're basically the same size.

02:28:53.000 But 212 is fairly small.

02:28:55.000 This is smaller than Mike was when Mike was in his prime, and Mike was only like 215, 220.

02:29:00.000 220, yeah, 221.

02:29:02.000 So that's why it's interesting because Mike moved his head, and the people who did the best against Muhammad Ali was Joe Frazier and Ken Norton.

02:29:10.000 Who moved their heads?

02:29:11.000 Yes, but again, these are the guys after this three-year break.

02:29:15.000 This three-year break, Muhammad Ali didn't train.

02:29:17.000 He didn't train at all for three years.

02:29:20.000 When you watch when he comes back after that, like, come on, son.

02:29:24.000 The speed.

02:29:24.000 Yeah.

02:29:25.000 And Cleveland's like, what the fuck is going on?

02:29:28.000 But speed and a bigger guy.

02:29:30.000 That's the thing.

02:29:31.000 That's the thing.

02:29:32.000 Because you thought when we were going in this clip that he was bigger than Muhammad Ali.

02:29:37.000 I did.

02:29:38.000 Yeah, so, but the thing is, like, people don't realize how big Muhammad Ali actually was.

02:29:43.000 Because George Foreman, you know, was a monster.

02:29:45.000 Look at these combinations.

02:29:47.000 His legs are bigger than George Foreman's.

02:29:49.000 And we know where the power is, right?

02:29:51.000 Well, George Foreman, what did he weigh when they fought?

02:29:54.000 218, and I think Muhammad Ali was 214.

02:29:57.000 They were like right.

02:29:58.000 So the actual fight day, who knew who was heavier?

02:30:02.000 Right.

02:30:03.000 But I'm just saying it's interesting because you got a guy the same size as Foreman moving faster.

02:30:09.000 Yeah, but he didn't in that fight.

02:30:11.000 In that fight, he mostly laid on the ropes, remember?

02:30:13.000 I mean, he lost the rope, though, but I'm seeing a lot of that.

02:30:16.000 He's still a big 220.

02:30:18.000 212 to 220.

02:30:19.000 Pretty close.

02:30:20.000 Yeah, I've seen it different.

02:30:21.000 I've seen that 218.

02:30:23.000 He wasn't the same guy.

02:30:25.000 If George Foreman of that time fought Cleveland, the Muhammad Ali that fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams, it's a completely different fight.

02:30:32.000 Foreman's getting pieced up.

02:30:33.000 Yeah, you're pieced up from the outside, and Ali was just picking him apart and moving.

02:30:39.000 And Foreman's swinging in there.

02:30:41.000 He was like nobody else before him, man.

02:30:43.000 He was so different.

02:30:44.000 He was so different.

02:30:45.000 But those three years when he had to take three years and he didn't train at all, and then he came back and now he's 30 and no strength and conditioning for three years, no running, no boxing.

02:30:57.000 His body looked different.

02:30:59.000 Who did he fight when he came back?

02:31:00.000 He fought Lyle?

02:31:05.000 No, that white dude had horrible brain damage.

02:31:09.000 Cobb?

02:31:10.000 Oh, Jerry Quarry.

02:31:10.000 Jerry Cooney.

02:31:11.000 No, no, no, Jerry Quarry.

02:31:12.000 Jerry Quarry.

02:31:13.000 Yeah, when he fought Jerry Quarry.

02:31:13.000 Okay.

02:31:14.000 See if you find that fight.

02:31:16.000 Now, look at his body when you see it.

02:31:18.000 You see his body smooth.

02:31:21.000 His footwork doesn't look the same.

02:31:23.000 His timing is off.

02:31:25.000 He had a ton of ring rust.

02:31:27.000 What's that, Jimmy?

02:31:27.000 He just didn't.

02:31:29.000 He just didn't look the same.

02:31:31.000 He didn't look the same.

02:31:32.000 And I think that three years, they fucked him, man.

02:31:36.000 Yeah.

02:31:36.000 They fucked him.

02:31:37.000 They fucked him.

02:31:38.000 And I mean, look, it made him a cultural hero because he wasn't willing to fight in Vietnam.

02:31:43.000 And, you know, he famously, like, look at his body.

02:31:46.000 It's different, man.

02:31:47.000 He's just not the same guy anymore.

02:31:49.000 He's not moving as fast.

02:31:51.000 And Jerry Quarry was just a really tough guy who was, you know, famous for being able to take a beating.

02:31:57.000 Yeah.

02:31:57.000 Like, Ali didn't have the endurance anymore.

02:32:00.000 Like, look at him.

02:32:01.000 He's just not the same guy anymore, man.

02:32:03.000 Yeah.

02:32:04.000 It was, he was a shadow of what he was before.

02:32:08.000 He still went on to win the title.

02:32:09.000 He still went on.

02:32:10.000 But I always wonder what he would have been if those three years were not stolen from him in his peak, in his prime.

02:32:19.000 Yeah, that would have been something else.

02:32:19.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:32:22.000 Yeah.

02:32:23.000 You know, there's one interesting thing, another thing, interesting thing about Ali is like, try to find him throwing a body shot.

02:32:31.000 Right.

02:32:32.000 Not a lot.

02:32:33.000 No, he almost never did.

02:32:35.000 Maybe a jab or two to the body. 0.99

02:32:37.000 Like, it's true.

02:32:40.000 It'd be interesting to count up all the body shots throughout his whole career.

02:32:44.000 And you might get 10.

02:32:46.000 It's true.

02:32:47.000 Yeah, it's interesting.

02:32:49.000 Yeah, it is.

02:32:50.000 That's why, I mean, that's why when people talk about the greatest boxer, of course, he's one of the greatest human beings, greatest Americans ever.

02:32:58.000 Right.

02:32:58.000 Like, just, man, the stuff he's, he put it, talk about putting himself out there for, you know, as far as a servant of the world.

02:33:07.000 There's nobody, I don't know anybody who compares to him.

02:33:10.000 Also, the personality.

02:33:12.000 When he would go on talk shows, and he was just so fun.

02:33:16.000 How sharp was he?

02:33:17.000 Oh, so sharp.

02:33:18.000 All those things were memorized.

02:33:20.000 One of my favorite ones was Howard Kosell said, you're a very truculent champ.

02:33:24.000 And he goes, whatever truculent means, if it's good, I'm that.

02:33:29.000 Oh, yeah.

02:33:30.000 I mean, he was just a different human being.

02:33:33.000 He was not scared of anything, man.

02:33:35.000 There's some stuff that some interviews that he's being real controversial.

02:33:40.000 Like, he would actually talk shit to people and talk about whooping their ass.

02:33:45.000 You know, just recently, I've seen some stuff that I was like, wow, I hadn't seen this one.

02:33:49.000 Oh, yeah.

02:33:50.000 If anybody disrespected him, if anybody like if they wouldn't call him Muhammad Ali, if they were calling him Cassius Clay, he would them up.

02:33:56.000 What's my name?

02:33:57.000 What's my name?

02:33:57.000 Pop!

02:33:58.000 Pop! 0.87

02:33:59.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:34:00.000 He was a special person, and just culturally, like one of the most significant figures ever in the history of America.

02:34:09.000 Because at a time where the world was torn, like, why the fuck are we in Vietnam?

02:34:14.000 And this one guy says, I'm not doing this.

02:34:17.000 And then they're like, okay, we're going to strip your title away from you.

02:34:19.000 And then for three years, he was, you know, persecuted, and the whole world was watching, and they eventually let him fight again.

02:34:27.000 But by then, we had realized that Vietnam was not a just war.

02:34:30.000 And this guy, they had taken three years of his life away from him because he wasn't willing to participate.

02:34:35.000 Yeah, man.

02:34:36.000 What a hero, man.

02:34:37.000 A real hero.

02:34:38.000 A real hero.

02:34:39.000 And, again, a cultural icon, like just a different kind of human being that inspired so many people outside of fighting.

02:34:46.000 My parents were hippies, and my parents wanted to watch the Leon Spencer rematch when he fought Leon Spanks.

02:34:53.000 Like, everybody's excited, sitting around.

02:34:54.000 I'm like, I remember being a little kid going, I can't believe they want to watch this fight.

02:34:59.000 This is so weird to me.

02:35:00.000 Like, they want to watch a fight because that's who Muhammad Ali was.

02:35:04.000 He was just different.

02:35:05.000 He meant something to America in a way that no other fighter before or since has.

02:35:11.000 Yeah.

02:35:12.000 Man, there's so many, man, just even for equal rights and just for everything.

02:35:18.000 Yeah, so much that I really can't think of many people that have been more significant.

02:35:23.000 No, and many people think, many people think about like, what do you stand for?

02:35:28.000 What do you, I mean, this guy, he could have easily just taken some stupid fucking desk job with the army or something.

02:35:35.000 And, you know, easily, yeah.

02:35:37.000 I mean, I did a movie last year in Louisville, Kentucky.

02:35:41.000 And while I was there, I went and visited Muhammad Ali's gravesite.

02:35:46.000 And dude, man, I didn't expect any.

02:35:49.000 I was just like, let me see it.

02:35:50.000 And dude, I couldn't talk for two hours afterwards.

02:35:53.000 I just sat in my car and just all got overwhelmed just to think what this man really meant.

02:35:58.000 Yeah.

02:35:59.000 It was just like, it jacked me up.

02:36:01.000 I didn't expect that.

02:36:03.000 Yeah, I can't think of another fighter that meant more, like in terms of a cultural icon.

02:36:09.000 Can't think of another one.

02:36:09.000 Yeah, and put his life on the line and just was so you know and a cautionary tale to fighters too about the end about fighting too long.

02:36:18.000 Look, no one ever forgave Larry Holmes for beating him up.

02:36:21.000 Larry Holmes, one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time, never got his just due because people never forgave him for beating up Ali.

02:36:28.000 Yeah, yeah, honestly, yeah.

02:36:30.000 Which is crazy.

02:36:31.000 Yeah.

02:36:31.000 You know, it's not fair.

02:36:32.000 Didn't make any sense.

02:36:33.000 I mean, Muhammad Ali was trying to beat him up, but you know, everybody knew, even though Ali was fighting, everybody knew it was over.

02:36:41.000 He wasn't the Muhammad Ali of old.

02:36:43.000 Yeah, and then he wanted to call it into the fight, man.

02:36:47.000 Like, Holmes was like, why am I doing this?

02:36:50.000 Right.

02:36:51.000 Yeah, that was sad.

02:36:51.000 Yeah.

02:36:52.000 Yeah.

02:36:53.000 And he wasn't, Holmes was never that much of a likable presence.

02:36:56.000 It's hard to come behind Muhammad Ali.

02:36:59.000 Right.

02:36:59.000 He was never that kind of a personality.

02:37:01.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:37:01.000 But damn, did he have a jab?

02:37:03.000 That's the best jab around.

02:37:05.000 Woo, Larry Holmes.

02:37:06.000 Even when he fought Tyson, he was popping him with that jab.

02:37:09.000 And it made you wonder, God, I wonder what Larry would have done in his prime.

02:37:12.000 This would have been an exciting fight to see in his prime.

02:37:14.000 No, the two of them?

02:37:15.000 Yeah.

02:37:16.000 I still don't think he would have been able to beat Prime Tyson.

02:37:18.000 No.

02:37:19.000 But it was wild to see.

02:37:20.000 Tyson made his bones on fighting bigger guys and making them miss and pay for it.

02:37:25.000 So he'd load up on his legs.

02:37:25.000 Yeah.

02:37:29.000 And a lot of times when he's landing, he's in the air.

02:37:32.000 Yep.

02:37:33.000 He's in the air, man.

02:37:34.000 It was the speed, too.

02:37:35.000 Middleweight, speed in a heavyweight body.

02:37:38.000 He's the fastest.

02:37:39.000 Well, he was one of the fastest heavyweights.

02:37:41.000 I think there's one guy after Usik's pretty damn fast.

02:37:45.000 Oh, Usik's nice.

02:37:46.000 Yeah.

02:37:46.000 Oh, man.

02:37:47.000 Talk about a person.

02:37:48.000 He's funny.

02:37:49.000 That's a funny dude.

02:37:50.000 Oh, he's a character.

02:37:51.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:37:52.000 And he wanted to talk about technique, too.

02:37:54.000 And another guy was trained by the same guy as Lomachenko.

02:37:58.000 Lomachenko's father trained Usik.

02:37:59.000 Oh, cool, cool.

02:38:00.000 Which is also why he's like a heavyweight Usik. 0.92

02:38:02.000 Or a heavyweight Lomachenko.

02:38:03.000 Lomachenko, yeah.

02:38:04.000 He's got that footwork and movement and that Russian style, that you know, Ukrainian Russian style.

02:38:09.000 It's like those guys, they figured out movement and footwork.

02:38:12.000 Bival has it, you know.

02:38:14.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:38:15.000 Yeah.

02:38:15.000 It's a no, look, we're very fortunate that we can see all of these incredible human beings that have risked their life and their health and put it on the line so we could see true lessons about character and technique.

02:38:28.000 Yeah, I just wish heavyweights would concentrate on technique a little bit more.

02:38:32.000 Right.

02:38:33.000 I mean, we're well, maybe Usik's changing people's perspective on that.

02:38:37.000 Maybe they're realizing, like, wow, you can't just one-two everybody.

02:38:40.000 Yeah, I think what happened, and there's another thing in this country, it's like people, I think, they're not following boxing.

02:38:46.000 They're not getting the boxing.

02:38:48.000 A lot of these guys are going for the money.

02:38:51.000 They'll try to play football or whatever.

02:38:54.000 Well, since Deontay, we haven't really had a heavyweight boxing champion in America.

02:38:59.000 Deontay was our last heavyweight boxing champion.

02:39:02.000 Yeah.

02:39:03.000 And talk about technique is not the best.

02:39:07.000 But, you know, he had what Teddy Atlas likes to call the eraser.

02:39:10.000 Right, yeah, true.

02:39:11.000 He can make all the mistakes of the world.

02:39:12.000 He had that one eraser.

02:39:13.000 Blam. 0.89

02:39:14.000 Yeah.

02:39:15.000 Deontay's one of the craziest knockout punchers that's ever existed.

02:39:15.000 Yeah.

02:39:19.000 Yeah.

02:39:20.000 It was nuts.

02:39:20.000 He just hit you moving backwards flatline.

02:39:24.000 Weighed like 212?

02:39:26.000 209 when he fought Tyson Fury the first time.

02:39:29.000 209.

02:39:30.000 Yeah.

02:39:32.000 He and I went shooting before.

02:39:33.000 Like we've done some tactical stuff together.

02:39:37.000 Yeah.

02:39:38.000 Really nice guy.

02:39:39.000 Yeah.

02:39:40.000 I love talking to him on the podcast.

02:39:41.000 Oh, yeah.

02:39:42.000 He's he's he's great.

02:39:44.000 I don't know.

02:39:45.000 I don't know.

02:39:45.000 It's like just work on this technique, man.

02:39:48.000 It's like, geez, I don't know.

02:39:50.000 Yeah, I don't know, man.

02:39:51.000 It's too late.

02:39:52.000 It's what you do for a living.

02:39:54.000 I think he relied on that gift for so long.

02:39:58.000 Because, I mean, look at the gift, though.

02:39:59.000 I mean, at one point in time, he was like 39 knockouts out of 40 fights.

02:40:05.000 Yeah.

02:40:06.000 Yeah.

02:40:07.000 But it's like he's.

02:40:09.000 I know.

02:40:09.000 Nuts.

02:40:10.000 But it didn't matter when it landed.

02:40:15.000 When it landed, you couldn't do shit about all that sloppiness.

02:40:18.000 I still wouldn't mind seeing AJ versus him.

02:40:21.000 I still wouldn't mind either.

02:40:22.000 That'd be interesting.

02:40:23.000 I think after the car accident, AJ might be done, though, because he was knocked unconscious in that car accident.

02:40:30.000 I heard really bad.

02:40:31.000 I heard he was out for like 10 minutes.

02:40:33.000 Really?

02:40:33.000 Yeah.

02:40:34.000 And his two friends died.

02:40:35.000 You know, I mean, after all his fights, and that is the last thing he needed is some extracurricular brain damage like that.

02:40:44.000 True, true.

02:40:45.000 And then also losing his two great friends like that.

02:40:48.000 It's got to be, you know, that's just fucking crazy.

02:40:52.000 Yeah.

02:40:53.000 That's a sad thing, but I think if he's my brother or my cousin, I'd be like, you got to go through this.

02:41:00.000 You can't, you know, you got to, for their sake.

02:41:04.000 Yeah.

02:41:05.000 What would your friends want you to do?

02:41:07.000 Well, you know, we'll see.

02:41:08.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:41:09.000 I was hoping the best one because he's another one of our warriors, man.

02:41:13.000 He puts his body and life on the line for us, man.

02:41:19.000 That's our modern-day gladiator, you know?

02:41:21.000 I know.

02:41:21.000 There's nothing like a fight.

02:41:22.000 It's different than any kind of sporting event.

02:41:25.000 It's very different.

02:41:26.000 And the losses are way different.

02:41:28.000 They're way harder to deal with.

02:41:30.000 And the victories are way greater.

02:41:32.000 Yeah, you know, one of my best friends being Frankie, man.

02:41:34.000 Like, so I got a front seat to all of that.

02:41:37.000 You know, Frankie knocked out Roy Jones back in the amateurs.

02:41:40.000 And, you know, I wanted to see him get his due.

02:41:44.000 I mean, he was WBA super middleweight champ for five years straight.

02:41:48.000 But it was a front seat to the boxing life and the fighting life.

02:41:55.000 It's a hard world.

02:41:56.000 Yeah, it is.

02:41:58.000 It's a hard world in the end is not pretty, and there's no one there for you.

02:42:01.000 In the end, a lot.

02:42:02.000 I was watching this piece on Bobby Chacone, who was a great fighter in the 80s.

02:42:07.000 And oh my God, in the end, it was horrible.

02:42:09.000 It's just horrible watching just the deterioration and the brain damage and no one there for you.

02:42:16.000 And that's a lot of guys.

02:42:18.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:42:19.000 And if you, I mean, your brain, you know, it doesn't regenerate.

02:42:23.000 And I didn't.

02:42:24.000 No, it only gets worse.

02:42:25.000 Yeah.

02:42:26.000 And if you're experiencing brain damage now, I mean, without treatment, there's some treatments now that they're able to use to help regenerate some neural tissue.

02:42:37.000 But there's a certain amount you never come back from.

02:42:40.000 Yeah.

02:42:41.000 I know my son, one of my sons is, I mean, he's been going through, what do they call it?

02:42:48.000 This is like a stimulation thing.

02:42:51.000 It's the magnetic stuff.

02:42:52.000 Yeah, it's, man, I forget.

02:42:55.000 But he's actually, it's actually helped him out a great deal.

02:42:58.000 I mean, he kind of went kind of an interesting route, like, kind of experimented with some stuff before.

02:43:08.000 But now he's kind of come back.

02:43:10.000 It's turned him around.

02:43:12.000 What happened?

02:43:13.000 Yeah, he kind of was like, you know, getting high, doing it, kind of went that route for a minute.

02:43:19.000 But it's, but he's gotten, I've just actually seen things turn around with this, I don't know why I can't remember, but it's this brain stimulation thing, and it kind of rewires you.

02:43:33.000 You know?

02:43:35.000 You know, I think I heard you talk about the NED and those type of things.

02:43:42.000 So, yeah, there's things that are going.

02:43:46.000 There are things that can help, but you've got to be very vigilant about it.

02:43:49.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:43:50.000 Yeah, so I've been connected to a lot of the anti-aging type of stuff.

02:43:59.000 We're getting fascinating.

02:44:00.000 Yeah, it's fascinating.

02:44:02.000 A good friend of mine, Bob Goldman.

02:44:04.000 I don't know if you know Dr. Bob Goldman is.

02:44:06.000 No.

02:44:07.000 Yeah, he should have him on your show.

02:44:09.000 He's an interesting guy.

02:44:10.000 He runs A4M.

02:44:11.000 I don't know if you ever heard.

02:44:12.000 It's this conglomerate of doctors all around the world that's dedicated to fixing causes of diseases, not just chasing around the symptoms and stuff.

02:44:25.000 And so it's like very much in the face of the pharmaceutical companies, they are really dedicated to taking care of things from the source.

02:44:39.000 And it's been going on for a while, man.

02:44:40.000 It's like they have about six of these things a year.

02:44:45.000 The biggest one is in Vegas.

02:44:47.000 But you look it up, A4M.

02:44:52.000 Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, he's been dealing with them.

02:44:58.000 I've actually tried to, I've hooked Nick Diaz up with him to help him.

02:45:04.000 Because they're on the forefront of the new medicine type stuff.

02:45:10.000 So, yeah, it's an interesting thing.

02:45:13.000 A4M, they have a lot of doctors who will be giving lectures on all the most innovative stuff.

02:45:21.000 And they have all the newest equipment that's just like the biggest kind of, I don't know, like rooms, huge rooms full of all the most collaborating.

02:45:36.000 It's a good time to be an older person.

02:45:38.000 There's a lot of science behind it.

02:45:40.000 They have the belief that you should be in your, you know, living to 100, but healthily.

02:45:45.000 Yeah.

02:45:46.000 They really believe that.

02:45:47.000 And I, you know.

02:45:48.000 If it's ever been possible, now's the time.

02:45:50.000 Oh, yeah.

02:45:51.000 Yeah.

02:45:51.000 I think so, too.

02:45:53.000 My doctor, Dr. Alabezos, my doctor's 63.

02:45:57.000 He looks like a freaking superhero.

02:46:01.000 That's awesome.

02:46:02.000 63-year-old guys when we were kids were basically dead.

02:46:02.000 Yeah, you look at that.

02:46:06.000 They were just old men, frail, feeble. 1.00

02:46:06.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:46:09.000 Yeah, it's interesting, man.

02:46:10.000 It's like, and yeah, we're getting older.

02:46:14.000 Knockwood, man.

02:46:15.000 I've been very fortunate.

02:46:16.000 I've been very lucky.

02:46:18.000 Yeah, me too.

02:46:19.000 This is a good time to be an older person.

02:46:21.000 Yeah.

02:46:22.000 Man, you look good, man.

02:46:23.000 Thank you, you too.

02:46:24.000 Yeah.

02:46:25.000 I think I'm a little older than you, though.

02:46:26.000 How old are you?

02:46:27.000 Yeah.

02:46:28.000 I'm 58.

02:46:29.000 Oh, yeah.

02:46:30.000 I'm a little older than you.

02:46:31.000 Okay.

02:46:31.000 Yeah.

02:46:32.000 Well, you look great.

02:46:33.000 You look great then if you're older than me.

02:46:33.000 Oh, thank you.

02:46:35.000 I feel good.

02:46:36.000 I feel very good.

02:46:36.000 Yeah.

02:46:37.000 It's a really good.

02:46:38.000 Well, there's so much information now on how to maintain your body and how to maintain your health.

02:46:43.000 Yeah.

02:46:44.000 You're older.

02:46:45.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:46:46.000 Well, hey, brother, it's been great.

02:46:47.000 I'm glad we got together.

02:46:49.000 Me too.

02:46:49.000 Me too, man.

02:46:50.000 Again, man, I got to tell you, man, how proud I am.

02:46:53.000 Joe from the gym is doing his thing, man, in a big way.

02:46:57.000 I feel the same about you.

02:46:58.000 Thank you.

02:46:59.000 Well, thank you, man.

02:47:00.000 This is a lot of fun.

02:47:01.000 Thanks for having me.

02:47:01.000 Yeah, man.

02:47:01.000 We'll do it again sometime.

02:47:02.000 Yeah, we got to.

02:47:03.000 All right, bro.

02:47:03.000 All right.

02:47:04.000 All right.

02:47:05.000 All right.

The Joe Rogan Experience - February 18, 2026

Joe Rogan Experience #2456 - Michael Jai White

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