The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2462 - Aaron Siri

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out!

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night, all day.

00:00:12.000 So you had a pile of notes and then you just folded them up.

00:00:15.000 Like, did you commit them to memory?

00:00:16.000 No, I'm just these two things.

00:00:18.000 I have the links I sent you guys.

00:00:19.000 Oh, okay.

00:00:20.000 And just some stuff that was like, what's in there?

00:00:27.000 How did, first of all, I want to talk you through, like, when you were a younger man before you had looked into this, what was your opinions on medical science?

00:00:36.000 What was your opinions on vaccines?

00:00:37.000 Were you skeptical, or did you just kind of assume that everything that we're told is exactly how it is and the experts have only the best interests of human beings in mind and not money?

00:00:49.000 I had what you would effectively call the mainstream view.

00:00:52.000 Vaccines saved humanity.

00:00:53.000 Me too.

00:00:53.000 We'd all be dead without them.

00:00:56.000 You know, there was the Bible giving it to Moses at Sinai, and then there were vaccines.

00:01:02.000 That's basically, you know.

00:01:05.000 I think it's anybody that didn't consider themselves a fool.

00:01:09.000 You know, you would have to be a fool, like a real fool, to ignore all this medical science, which is the reason why there's so many people alive today that would have died.

00:01:18.000 And a lot of that's true.

00:01:19.000 Look, penicillin, antibiotics, there's a lot of stuff that has saved a lot of people's lives.

00:01:24.000 But the vaccine one, until this COVID epidemic, I would have never questioned it.

00:01:29.000 I mocked anti-vaxxers.

00:01:30.000 I was like, these people are silly.

00:01:32.000 Don't they know all the good things that vaccines have done?

00:01:36.000 And there's the blatant propaganda that we were force-fed like one of those ducks are trying to make faux gua with. 0.99

00:01:44.000 It just made me stop and pause and go, is the whole thing like this?

00:01:49.000 Is this whole thing just a dirty money laundering operation?

00:01:54.000 Because it kind of seems like that's at least part of the reason why they were telling people to get boosted when they knew it wasn't working and telling young people that didn't need it.

00:02:03.000 They wanted to make a lot of money.

00:02:05.000 That's the only reason why you would do any of those things after a certain amount of information is out.

00:02:10.000 And so it just made me stop and think about the whole thing and go, well, why would I assume that this is the one area where pharmaceutical drug companies, doctors, everybody's been totally honest in this one area when it's like a religious thing if you question it?

00:02:29.000 And that's the, well, I love the title of your book.

00:02:32.000 Yes.

00:02:33.000 Vaccines Amen. 0.83

00:02:35.000 The religion of vaccines.

00:02:37.000 That's what it is.

00:02:38.000 It's a religion for secular, intelligent people with a higher education.

00:02:44.000 And it causes incredible cognitive dissonance for anybody out there to come to the conclusion that the CDC and the FDA and our public health authorities and what the entire medical establishment has been telling you may not be accurate about vaccines.

00:03:03.000 Because like what you just said, the claim that you're a flat earther, you're an anti-vaxxer, deserves.

00:03:12.000 And they're used as a way to say you are really out there and dumb.

00:03:17.000 They're completely equal in their impact.

00:03:19.000 And so it takes incredible cognitive dissonance to say there are real problems with vaccines.

00:03:26.000 But vaccines really sit in their own little universe.

00:03:31.000 They're unlike any other medical product.

00:03:33.000 They're not like penicillin.

00:03:34.000 They're not like any other drugs.

00:03:36.000 They're not like any other product out there, any other product in this room, anything out there, for one major reason.

00:03:44.000 Every other product that exists, I can sue the company.

00:03:50.000 I can hold them accountable if that product injures or kills you or your child on the basis that product could have made safer.

00:03:59.000 The only product, and I mean this literally, the only product in America where you cannot sue to say had you made that product safer, my child wouldn't be dead.

00:04:13.000 My child wouldn't be seriously injured.

00:04:15.000 They wouldn't have a neurological disorder.

00:04:16.000 They wouldn't have immunological disorder.

00:04:18.000 They wouldn't have a nervous system disorder.

00:04:19.000 They wouldn't have a cardiac issue are childhood vaccines and child vaccines used by adults.

00:04:26.000 It's the only one.

00:04:27.000 And that's because of a law called the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986.

00:04:33.000 It gave pharma companies that incredibly special immunity.

00:04:39.000 Now, just to put that into context, okay, and I'll tie this back in a second as to how we ended up with this notion of this belief, religion, and vaccines, because, you know, given industry 40 years of unopposed ability to influence, they're going to get pretty dang far, and they did with vaccines.

00:04:59.000 And so, you know, a lot of industries face a crossroads where their products are causing more harm than good.

00:05:09.000 Gas tanks used to explode.

00:05:11.000 What did they do?

00:05:12.000 Made a better gas tank.

00:05:15.000 Building materials had asbestos, caused cancer.

00:05:18.000 What did they do?

00:05:19.000 They make better building materials.

00:05:22.000 Did they give them immunity?

00:05:23.000 No, of course not.

00:05:25.000 But in the instance of vaccines leading up to 1986, there were only three routine vaccines.

00:05:32.000 That's it.

00:05:33.000 That's all there was.

00:05:34.000 A child following the CDC schedule in 1986 got three injections on or before their first birthday.

00:05:43.000 Those three products were causing so much harm and injury that every manufacturer of them went out of business.

00:05:51.000 And that was the MMR vaccine, the DTP, and the OPV vaccine.

00:05:54.000 Every single one, from six down to one, or for the Peotuses vaccine, six down to one for measles, about three downs, one for polio.

00:06:01.000 And with one company left for each, instead of forcing them to do what every other industry has to do, like I said, make better building materials without asbestos, make better cars that don't explode, go down the chain of different products out there.

00:06:16.000 Congress did something completely unique.

00:06:18.000 It said, you know what?

00:06:21.000 We're just going to give you immunity.

00:06:23.000 We're going to make it so that no company, excuse me, no individual, no parent, no child can sue you for the injuries and deaths caused by your vaccine products.

00:06:35.000 That is what the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act 1986 did.

00:06:38.000 And not only for those three products, but for any other childhood vaccine thereafter.

00:06:42.000 And what that effectively has done is given 40 years for the industry to promote their products, no pushback.

00:06:49.000 When you read about a problem with a car, where are you reading about it from?

00:06:52.000 Usually a class action lawsuit in the paper, right?

00:06:55.000 You're not going to read about that in vaccines typically.

00:06:57.000 And because of that, you ended up where we are.

00:07:00.000 Anyways, there's a lot more detail to that, but I'll stop there for now.

00:07:02.000 No, please keep going.

00:07:03.000 Well, I mean, when you think about what makes products safer, right?

00:07:11.000 Because I've got a law firm with over 100 individuals.

00:07:14.000 I'm the managing partner of the firm.

00:07:16.000 Half my firm does all types of plate-to-side class actions.

00:07:20.000 We can hold companies accountable for almost anything.

00:07:23.000 Your data, we do hundreds of data breach cases, genetic privacy cases, biometric privacy cases.

00:07:29.000 We do all kinds of types of lawsuits like that nature.

00:07:33.000 By the way, New York Times loves those lawsuits, by the way.

00:07:35.000 That stuff, nobody attacks me for, okay?

00:07:38.000 Oh, making my privacy better?

00:07:40.000 Oh, protecting me from cars that explode.

00:07:42.000 Oh, thank you.

00:07:44.000 Make vaccine safer.

00:07:45.000 You want to kill everybody.

00:07:46.000 Okay.

00:07:47.000 Then any of it.

00:07:48.000 But that's where it's really weird.

00:07:50.000 Well, here's where I think I can make, I'm hoping I can make it make sense without causing cognitive dissonance.

00:08:01.000 So going back to how we make products safer in America or anywhere, it's not the government.

00:08:09.000 Governments don't make products safer.

00:08:11.000 Look at extremely authoritarian regimes where there was very little free market like the former USSR.

00:08:18.000 You think products are safe?

00:08:19.000 No.

00:08:20.000 What makes products safe?

00:08:21.000 It's the economic self-interest of the company.

00:08:24.000 It's the economic interest of the company to make the product safer.

00:08:29.000 Why?

00:08:30.000 You probably own stock, right?

00:08:32.000 And where do you want your stock to go up or down?

00:08:34.000 How do you want it to go?

00:08:35.000 You want it to go up or you want it to go down?

00:08:36.000 Where do you want it to go?

00:08:37.000 You want it to go up.

00:08:37.000 Up.

00:08:38.000 Okay.

00:08:39.000 So do all the investors.

00:08:40.000 Right.

00:08:41.000 So does everybody who owns that stock.

00:08:43.000 So does Wall Street.

00:08:44.000 So does the CEO.

00:08:45.000 So does the board.

00:08:46.000 So does everybody, the people who owe the stock, everybody involved, all the employees that have stock options, including usually the major ones, everybody wants it to go up.

00:08:55.000 If you lose money, it doesn't go up.

00:08:58.000 So normally, the interest to assure a product is safer is aligned with the profit motive.

00:09:07.000 Because if your product causes injury and harm, then you're going to lose money.

00:09:11.000 So you want to know typically.

00:09:13.000 You have an economic self-interest as a corporation to know, not because you're altruistic, not because you're moral, not because you're ethical, just because you have that economic self-interest to assure the product is safe before you go to market and after you go to market.

00:09:28.000 Okay?

00:09:29.000 And that exists for every product in America, with effectively one exception.

00:09:34.000 Vaccines.

00:09:36.000 That's really it.

00:09:38.000 Now, I'm going to show you one result of that in practice.

00:09:47.000 When you think of drugs, and this will help, I think, tie into what you were saying about what happened with COVID.

00:09:53.000 Most drugs are licensed based on multi-year placebo-controlled trials.

00:09:58.000 Most of them.

00:09:59.000 Why?

00:10:00.000 Because the FDA requires it?

00:10:02.000 Because the FDA is so great?

00:10:04.000 No.

00:10:05.000 Nothing to do with the FDA.

00:10:06.000 It's because the company wants to know whether the drug is safe or not before it goes to market.

00:10:12.000 Because you know what happens with the drug that they put out that's going to make $40 billion in revenue or $20 billion but causes $100 billion in harm?

00:10:19.000 They end up upside down.

00:10:21.000 So they want to know to a reasonable degree how safe the drug is before it goes to market.

00:10:30.000 In an attempt not to cherry pick, as I did in my book, I found an article that listed the top four selling profitable drugs by Pfizer as of like 2021 or something, 2019, okay?

00:10:43.000 And if you look at those four most profitable drugs, as I put in my book, each one has two to seven years of follow-up in the clinical trial that was relied upon to license that drug against a placebo control group.

00:10:56.000 Just to make sure everybody, I'm sure everybody knows what that means, but that just means a group that gets something inert.

00:11:01.000 So this way you give the group the experimental drug, you give a group the placebo, something inert, you track them for multiple years, and then you compare all the outcomes, cardiovascular outcomes, neurological outcomes, immunology, go down the list, and cancer rates, and you see the difference.

00:11:18.000 You get a real actual sense of the safety between those two for that product.

00:11:25.000 In contrast, for most childhood vaccines, instead of years, it's often days or weeks of safety you're viewing the clinical trial relied upon to license them.

00:11:40.000 Not a single, and I know that folks contest this all the time, but it's in the FDA literature.

00:11:48.000 Not a single routine-injected childhood vaccine was licensed based on a placebo-controlled trial, save for the COVID vaccine, by the way, for children.

00:11:58.000 It's the only one.

00:11:59.000 Not a single one, okay?

00:12:02.000 Nor was the vaccine sometimes uses the control itself licensed based on a placebo-controlled trial, nor anywhere down that chain.

00:12:16.000 Chapter 10 of my book, I go through every vaccine.

00:12:19.000 I go through, I have it all cited to the FDA licensure documents.

00:12:23.000 You can listen to the talking heads, or you can rely on the primary sources from the FDA, which is why I call my book Vaccines Amen, because there is what they tell you, and then there's what the actual evidence shows, right?

00:12:35.000 So that gives you an example at the outcome of not having an economic self-interest.

00:12:40.000 With drugs, they have it, so they want to know the safety.

00:12:43.000 Can I challenge you on that?

00:12:44.000 What about the Viox?

00:12:46.000 Like, the Viox people knew that there was one of the things that was revealed during the trial is that they knew that there was going to be issues, but I think the quote was: we still think we'll do well. 0.80

00:12:58.000 And that was one of the damning aspects of the email disclosure, because you got a chance to see how these guys talk about this drug that they're about to release.

00:13:06.000 I think they wound up paying a percentage of the amount of money they made from the drug, but they made way more from the drug than they did the fine.

00:13:17.000 No, I appreciate that challenge.

00:13:19.000 And it's why I said when I was saying that they do the analysis of whether they're going to have $100 billion in loss or $40 billion in revenue.

00:13:28.000 I'm not saying they won't put out a drug that causes harm.

00:13:31.000 You're saying it caused too much harm.

00:13:34.000 Exactly.

00:13:36.000 They don't want to end up upside down.

00:13:38.000 And remember, the whole reason a drug is licensed is because it can cause harm.

00:13:43.000 The crazy thing about the Viox one is I think it killed somewhere north of 50,000 people and they still made profit off of it, which is kind of bananas. 0.95

00:13:55.000 They pulled it and made billions in profit.

00:13:59.000 This is the darker aspect of this.

00:14:03.000 If you were talking about companies that never did anything wrong, it had the highest moral and ethical standards, and they're the ones because it's not about money.

00:14:12.000 It's about saving people's health and it's about public safety.

00:14:16.000 And we've got to make sure that we do this right.

00:14:17.000 We're going to make sure we squash all the disinformation.

00:14:19.000 But that's not what you're talking about.

00:14:22.000 You're talking about these companies that have been fined billions, billions of dollars in criminal fines for fraud, for all kinds of shit.

00:14:31.000 These are the people.

00:14:32.000 And the idea that they wouldn't lie about vaccines, like this is the one thing they're going to tell you the truth.

00:14:37.000 Ruthless capitalist attached to money and drugs.

00:14:40.000 This is the one thing they're going to 100% tell you the truth about.

00:14:44.000 That seems kind of kooky.

00:14:46.000 That's a hard sell for anybody who's not ideologically captured.

00:14:50.000 That's a hard sell.

00:14:52.000 Yeah, but I don't think you need to go down the road that there's some kind of evil nefariousness there.

00:14:58.000 That's a broken economic and regulatory system from my perspective.

00:15:03.000 Right.

00:15:04.000 It's just a completely broken economic system.

00:15:06.000 To your point about Viox, right?

00:15:08.000 So in Viox, it caused an incredible amount of harm, but they still decided that the benefits raised the risk.

00:15:16.000 Do you know the story about the cars that used to explode?

00:15:19.000 It's the classic case we learned in law school.

00:15:21.000 And the gas tank and these cars.

00:15:25.000 It was the Pintos, that's right.

00:15:25.000 Was it a Pinto?

00:15:27.000 And a number of them explode every year, burning the people inside them alive to death.

00:15:32.000 Horrible way to go.

00:15:33.000 And there was a lawsuit.

00:15:35.000 And in that lawsuit, what they discovered was the company had done an internal calculation in which it did the math.

00:15:43.000 What's it going to cost to actually fix all the gas tanks?

00:15:47.000 What's that dollar number versus what's it going to cost to just pay out for those deaths every year for those people that we burn knowingly are going to die and burn to death in those cars?

00:15:57.000 And the calculation was that it was going to cost less to pay out for the deaths.

00:16:03.000 And that is what the internal document showed.

00:16:05.000 And that, by the way, is in part the case, the quintessential case you learn in law school for why they have punitive damages.

00:16:13.000 Because the punitive damages were there to force the company to conform its conduct in exactly that scenario where the economics weren't going to do it, right?

00:16:26.000 Even in something that horrible, when the market forces weren't sufficient, the economic self-interest wasn't there, you had to make it happen.

00:16:34.000 How?

00:16:35.000 Through punitive damages.

00:16:36.000 I know there's a lot of news about punitive damages.

00:16:40.000 Oh, it's excessive and so forth.

00:16:41.000 But that's what they're there for.

00:16:42.000 They're there for that scenario where we're just holding them accountable.

00:16:46.000 Now, go back to vaccines.

00:16:48.000 Think about how incredibly harmful and how much harm these vaccines must do that they cannot survive on the market without this immunity from 1986.

00:17:01.000 Think about that.

00:17:02.000 If you were going to steal me on the argument against that, wouldn't you say, look, we can't have frivolous lawsuits against these people that are providing us the most important medication that's available to humans.

00:17:16.000 The whole reason why we survived smallpox and polio and all these different things.

00:17:21.000 It's these vaccines.

00:17:22.000 Without them, we'd all be dead.

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00:18:36.000 Let's just assume that the last part of what you said is true, which we know it's not.

00:18:40.000 But with that said, steel manning it.

00:18:42.000 Let's steel manning it. 0.99

00:18:44.000 Easy response.

00:18:45.000 Okay.

00:18:46.000 Okay.

00:18:49.000 Drugs, drugs that are for very small populations, meaning not a lot of market, not a lot of sales, that cause incredible side effects can survive on the market profitably.

00:19:01.000 Think about that for a second.

00:19:03.000 Why?

00:19:04.000 Okay?

00:19:05.000 Here's why.

00:19:07.000 It's a little bit of legal stuff, but it's not that hard.

00:19:09.000 It's not that bad.

00:19:11.000 The primary claim you would typically bring against a product is the claim that it could have been made safer.

00:19:18.000 It's called a design defect claim.

00:19:21.000 It's a claim where I say, hey, had you put in a two-cent stopper on that gas tank, it wouldn't have exploded.

00:19:29.000 If you'd have put in a one-penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd have had my finger.

00:19:35.000 Okay?

00:19:36.000 Design defect claim.

00:19:37.000 The claim you could have made a product safer.

00:19:39.000 It is the primary claim you would bring for a product.

00:19:43.000 Okay?

00:19:43.000 Injury claim.

00:19:45.000 So how do you protect against it?

00:19:47.000 You make the product as technologically safe as possible.

00:19:51.000 Right?

00:19:52.000 So if you have a drug that causes incredible side effects that we just talked about, make the drug as safe as possible.

00:19:58.000 Make sure there are no contaminants.

00:20:00.000 Make sure that you use the best possible ingredients.

00:20:03.000 Make sure the combination, right?

00:20:05.000 The safest adjuvant, go down the road.

00:20:08.000 That's number one.

00:20:08.000 Number two, the second way you hold them accountable is you bring a claim called a failure to warrant claim.

00:20:18.000 I failed to warn you about the harm that the drug could have caused, okay?

00:20:22.000 And so what do you have to do there to protect yourself?

00:20:25.000 The company has to disclose all the potential harms.

00:20:27.000 If it has it right there in the package insert and you get it and it says, hey, it can cause this, you were told, you chose to still take the product.

00:20:34.000 They made it as safe as technologically feasible.

00:20:36.000 They disclosed the risks.

00:20:38.000 And that is how companies typically limit their liability with medical products, with drug products, okay?

00:20:43.000 Why can't they do that with vaccines?

00:20:45.000 Why can't they just make them as safe as technologically feasible?

00:20:48.000 Can't assume for design defect and disclose all the actual risks in the package insert.

00:20:53.000 The logical conclusion is that, and one other point to that, and then I'll respond to your steel man, okay?

00:20:53.000 Okay?

00:20:59.000 And it's this, all right?

00:21:01.000 It's been 40 years for some of these vaccines.

00:21:04.000 HEPB vaccine, for example, licensed in 86 and 89, the two standalones.

00:21:08.000 It's been 40 years.

00:21:08.000 You're telling me they still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity?

00:21:11.000 You're giving it to millions of kids a year.

00:21:13.000 You're making billions of dollars on the sales of this product, and you still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity, please.

00:21:21.000 Okay, if I was a silly person, I would probably say these vaccines are more important than any medication that's ever existed because they are the reason why we are here, because that's how we survived smallpox and polio and the measles and everything else.

00:21:39.000 And without them, we would have perished.

00:21:42.000 We would have never achieved the technological states that we're at because we wouldn't have been healthy.

00:21:47.000 We would have gone through mass plagues.

00:21:50.000 Okay, a response.

00:21:51.000 So because of that, it's just important that they stay in business.

00:21:57.000 Well, a few things.

00:21:58.000 And we trust the science.

00:21:59.000 You should trust the science, Aaron.

00:22:00.000 Believe.

00:22:01.000 Aaron, trust the science.

00:22:02.000 Yes, sir.

00:22:05.000 Amen.

00:22:06.000 Amen.

00:22:08.000 Yeah, I try not to do too much believing, and I try to do a little bit of evidence-based thinking.

00:22:12.000 But any event, look, when it comes to these products, I saved my beliefs for religion, the unanswerables, where do we go when we die, and so forth.

00:22:22.000 I have to take a leap of faith, and I do it when I need to, but you don't need to with these products.

00:22:26.000 Okay.

00:22:27.000 On the first part of what you said, first of all, there are products probably that are far more important to humanity at the moment.

00:22:35.000 No question about it than vaccines, even assuming it had the results that you just claimed, which I'll address in a second.

00:22:41.000 Imagine you said, well, look, cars are essential.

00:22:44.000 I mean, cars, you can't get an ambulance, you can't get to the hospital.

00:22:46.000 Without cars, you can't get to work.

00:22:48.000 You can't get your kids to school.

00:22:49.000 I mean, it's essential to a functioning society.

00:22:51.000 So let's give cars immunology.

00:22:52.000 Intuitively, you'd say that's ridiculous.

00:22:55.000 On the death's point, that is one of the myths.

00:22:59.000 That is one of the mythologies around vaccines that has developed over time.

00:23:04.000 This notion that everybody in America die without vaccines.

00:23:08.000 In chapter seven of my book, I lay it out for every single disease.

00:23:12.000 And what I do there is I say, okay, how many deaths were there in America the year before the vaccine was first introduced or widely or widely used or so forth, okay?

00:23:24.000 In any real degree.

00:23:26.000 And what you find is, if you go down the list, there were typically dozens to hundreds, maybe a thousand or so deaths from each disease for which we vaccinate.

00:23:36.000 The further back in time you go, the larger the number, but in that dozens to 1,000 or so deaths, okay?

00:23:44.000 For example, measles, the dreaded measles that they say everybody will die from.

00:23:49.000 No measles vaccine, we're all going to die, right?

00:23:51.000 That is the impression they give you.

00:23:53.000 You have any idea how many people died of measles in the years before there was a measles vaccine in the United States?

00:23:58.000 About 400 a year.

00:24:00.000 That's it?

00:24:01.000 That's it.

00:24:01.000 400 a year died in the United States at a time when everybody had measles, which comes out to about one in 450,000 Americans dying of measles.

00:24:11.000 That's in the CDC.

00:24:12.000 Anybody listening to this is like, come on, that's not true.

00:24:14.000 CDC mortality documents on the CDC website, cited in my book, 400.

00:24:19.000 And don't about 50,000 people every year die from the flu?

00:24:24.000 Well, that statistic includes bacterial deaths that they say are potentially the result from having influenza.

00:24:36.000 So your immune system gets weakened and then something else hits you and that kills you?

00:24:41.000 Is that the idea behind it?

00:24:43.000 Well, that's just the way they gather the data, is the way I'll put it.

00:24:47.000 But with influenza, well, if I finish up with measles, because I think this is important on the measles one, and I can deal with influenza as well.

00:24:59.000 But on the measles one, just to really, because you're saying, well, everybody would die without these.

00:25:04.000 I don't think people think of influenza, by the way.

00:25:06.000 They think of measles.

00:25:08.000 They think of those diseases.

00:25:11.000 I don't ever hear anybody say to me, well, everybody will die of influenza without influenza vaccines.

00:25:15.000 Everybody, it's available.

00:25:16.000 Everybody can get it.

00:25:18.000 The mortality hasn't changed much.

00:25:20.000 In fact, if you look at the mortality of influenza before influenza vaccines were widespread, we're not doing that great.

00:25:26.000 Anyway, putting that aside for a moment.

00:25:26.000 Okay.

00:25:28.000 Not only that, isn't there data that shows that if you get it, you're more likely to get other colds.

00:25:35.000 Yeah, I have a whole giant footnote in my book about this, and I've actually tweeted this out and did a substick about this, a whole series of articles.

00:25:45.000 Studies that show that those that have had the influenza vaccines, maybe these studies often reflect have around the same rate of influenza.

00:25:55.000 Maybe they have less respiratory and fluenza infections, but many studies show they have multiple times the rate of other respiratory infections.

00:26:04.000 So good job.

00:26:06.000 Maybe you've reduced your risk of influenza by this much, but you've increased your risk of another different respiratory disease by that much.

00:26:13.000 How much is it?

00:26:14.000 How much of the increase?

00:26:15.000 It depends on the study.

00:26:16.000 Some studies show four times risk, some studies show three times risk.

00:26:19.000 Yeah.

00:26:20.000 I mean, literally three, four, I mean, huge percentages.

00:26:24.000 And they're statistically significant in these studies.

00:26:26.000 And so, you know, when you're looking at a now, these are all retrospective epidemiological studies.

00:26:31.000 But when you do a retrospective EPI study, which means you take existing data and then you study it versus saying, okay, we're going to do a study and follow people going forward.

00:26:41.000 Okay.

00:26:43.000 If you find like a 1.3 time, which means 30% increased risk, that's a pulpofo finding. 0.87

00:26:50.000 This is 3%, 400% increased risk.

00:26:52.000 Yes.

00:26:53.000 And in many of these studies, it's inconvenient data, so obviously it's not talked about.

00:26:57.000 Right.

00:26:58.000 So 400 people is not a whole lot.

00:27:00.000 I'm sure, I mean, it's sad when 400 people die.

00:27:04.000 But it's also one of those diseases that when you're a child, it's much more survivable, right?

00:27:10.000 Than adult.

00:27:11.000 Adult, it's rough, isn't it?

00:27:13.000 Yeah.

00:27:13.000 So measles, the ideal age to get it is not when you're an infant, which in the pre-vaccine era, infants typically did not get measles because they got maternal immunity from the mother.

00:27:25.000 And you don't want to get it as an adult because it is more likely to cause problems, which again, in the pre-vaccine era, wasn't a problem because everybody virtually got it as a child.

00:27:37.000 Right.

00:27:38.000 Yeah.

00:27:39.000 And when you got it as a child, my recollection of it was the episode of the Brady Bunch.

00:27:45.000 Do you remember?

00:27:45.000 Yeah.

00:27:46.000 Do you remember that episode?

00:27:47.000 Yeah, they were laughing about it.

00:27:47.000 Let's watch this.

00:27:49.000 Find that clip and let's watch it because it's so indicative of what measles was actually like in the culture of the people that would get it all the time versus this boogeyman of today.

00:28:04.000 I mean, it is, it's so stark.

00:28:06.000 It's so, I mean, it's like, imagine the kid coming home.

00:28:09.000 Hey, mom, I've got AIDS.

00:28:10.000 I got to stay home from school.

00:28:11.000 It's not that, right?

00:28:13.000 It's the way that most folks who've had chickenpox think of chickenpox.

00:28:16.000 Right.

00:28:18.000 But we're told that it's killing people.

00:28:20.000 We're told that it's killing people now.

00:28:22.000 We're told that it's killing.

00:28:23.000 It's always kids.

00:28:24.000 We're told it's killing kids now.

00:28:27.000 And look, if anybody dies from measles, I'm very sad.

00:28:30.000 But I want to know: is it with measles?

00:28:33.000 Remember the with COVID or from COVID?

00:28:36.000 Like, what kind of condition were these people in before this hit them?

00:28:40.000 Because some, I mean, that was the thing about COVID.

00:28:43.000 It's like, yeah, it's fatal.

00:28:45.000 If you have four plus comorbidities, you're more likely to be fatal.

00:28:49.000 And that was most of the people that wind up dying from it, right?

00:28:53.000 That's almost certainly the case.

00:28:55.000 And I can add another data point to that to help support that, which is that between 1900, and this is again CDC data, between 1900 and the late 1950s, early 1960s, the mortality from measles declined in the United States by over 98%.

00:29:14.000 You know what didn't cause that?

00:29:15.000 Vaccines.

00:29:16.000 Yeah, because it didn't exist.

00:29:18.000 I know.

00:29:20.000 So immunity had become a herd thing, just like COVID-ish right now.

00:29:27.000 Everybody basically has had COVID, or at least he's been exposed to it by now.

00:29:31.000 Yeah.

00:29:31.000 Watch.

00:29:31.000 Here it is.

00:29:32.000 It's the whole episode.

00:29:33.000 There's multiple clips.

00:29:34.000 I don't know which one of those.

00:29:37.000 Let's just try.

00:29:39.000 He finds out he's coming over.

00:29:40.000 Put on your headphones for a second so we could hear this.

00:29:43.000 Oh, grab your headphones.

00:29:43.000 Aaron.

00:29:45.000 Thank you.

00:29:46.000 Oh, no.

00:29:47.000 Are you sure it's the measles?

00:29:48.000 Well, he certainly got all the symptoms.

00:29:50.000 A slight temperature, a lot of dots, and a great big smile.

00:29:53.000 A great big smile.

00:29:54.000 No school for a few days.

00:29:59.000 You've got measles.

00:30:00.000 Golly, mothers are supposed to know everything. 1.00

00:30:03.000 But do you have to keep proving it?

00:30:05.000 You've got a temperature, too.

00:30:06.000 What do you mean, too?

00:30:08.000 Peter was sent over from school a little while ago.

00:30:09.000 Oh, what was his temperature?

00:30:11.000 101.1.

00:30:12.000 Oh, is that off?

00:30:13.000 I'm 101.2.

00:30:16.000 Oh, Greg, you want my railroad.

00:30:18.000 I'll be a sport.

00:30:19.000 You can ride on it free.

00:30:21.000 Thanks a lot.

00:30:22.000 It's your turn, Peter.

00:30:25.000 They're having a measles party.

00:30:27.000 Oh, missed it.

00:30:28.000 Yep.

00:30:30.000 Boy, this is the life, isn't it?

00:30:32.000 Yeah.

00:30:32.000 If you have to get sick, sure can't beat the measles.

00:30:35.000 That's right.

00:30:36.000 No medicine.

00:30:37.000 Inside or out.

00:30:37.000 Like shots I mean.

00:30:38.000 Don't even mention shots.

00:30:40.000 Yeah.

00:30:41.000 Okay.

00:30:43.000 I mean, am I crazy?

00:30:46.000 Or have we gone through one of the wildest gaslightings of anything ever?

00:30:51.000 There's people out there that, because of the things that you said so far about the measles, will be 100% freaking out on Twitter.

00:31:00.000 Right?

00:31:00.000 But this is a window into how the American public thought.

00:31:04.000 I know it's a television show.

00:31:05.000 I know it's a sitcom, but you can't joke around about stuff that other people wouldn't think is funny.

00:31:12.000 People would think that was funny.

00:31:14.000 These kids saying, if you're going to get sick, you should get the measles.

00:31:17.000 And everybody at home will be like, oh, I wish I had a day off.

00:31:20.000 Well, that's how they thought of it.

00:31:22.000 Yeah.

00:31:22.000 And to put hard data on it, going back to that statistic, over 98% reduction.

00:31:29.000 Remember, it's not like COVID, Joe, because COVID, there was no immunity in the population, right?

00:31:35.000 Right.

00:31:36.000 Measles has been around for forever, as far as we know, thousands of years.

00:31:40.000 The year 1900 wasn't the beginning of herd immunity.

00:31:44.000 1900, measles already endemic.

00:31:47.000 Everybody was getting measles.

00:31:49.000 So every year, there's a few million people cohort that were getting it, and you had this decline.

00:31:53.000 And so you have to ask yourself, what was the decline?

00:31:58.000 It was probably better sanitation, better acute medical care.

00:32:02.000 I mean, all kinds of things.

00:32:04.000 And you know who could take credit for most of that stuff?

00:32:06.000 Better sanitation, better living conditions, better, you name it.

00:32:11.000 Probably public health authorities.

00:32:13.000 Meaning, the improvement in acute care, the introduction of antibiotics, better living conditions, not having sewage in the street, you name it, probably had a massive contributor to that reduction, but they never point to that.

00:32:29.000 And there's one other really inconvenient data point with measles, and this is really where it gets upsetting for folks out there who you were just saying are going to watch the show.

00:32:36.000 And it's this.

00:32:38.000 That over 98% reduction in mortality, there's no reason that that curve was not going to continue.

00:32:45.000 Because pockets of the United States in the late 15 and early 60s were like a developing country.

00:32:50.000 In a developing country, kids are going to die of any infectious disease because of extremely poor living conditions.

00:32:57.000 And as those improved, most likely that 400 deaths also would have continued to decline.

00:33:02.000 4.2 million births in the United States in the late 50s, early 60s, about 3.8 million births today.

00:33:08.000 So in fact, there's less children being born in America today than there was then.

00:33:11.000 So you have a smaller cohort of babies, young children to infect.

00:33:17.000 And final data point, and it's this, and this is really, I know this is going to cause cognitive dissonance for some, but studies that have looked at those that have had measles versus those that don't find that those that have had measles have a statistically significant greater reduction in deaths from cardiovascular disease and various cancers.

00:33:46.000 So I'll give you an example.

00:33:48.000 There's a 20-year, 22-year prospective study in Japan funded by the government of Japan and major universities that tracked 100,000 people in Japan for 22 years.

00:33:59.000 And it found that those that had measles and mumps had a 20% statistically significant decline in deaths from cardiovascular disease.

00:34:07.000 Think about that for a second.

00:34:09.000 Just think about that.

00:34:10.000 About 800,000 Americans die of cardiovascular disease.

00:34:14.000 If eliminating measles and mumps has increased cardiovascular deaths in the United States by even 1% on a life years lost basis, you are still way upside down on your public health benefit by eliminating measles.

00:34:29.000 Can I ask you what the speculation is of how that could be?

00:34:32.000 Why would measles and mumps infection at an early age improve your health cardiovascularly?

00:34:38.000 Why would it also, those that have not had measles, have a 66% increased rate of non-Hodgkin lymphoma and 266% increased rate of Hodgkin's lymphoma, which kills 20,000 people a year?

00:34:50.000 Why would women that have had measles have 50% less ovarian cancer, which kills a lot of women every year? 0.95

00:34:58.000 What is it about it?

00:34:59.000 Maybe, and here's the thing.

00:35:04.000 And you can have evolutionary biologists talk about this as well.

00:35:07.000 You've had some on.

00:35:09.000 Think about it this way.

00:35:09.000 Pathogens have come and gone throughout the ages, right?

00:35:13.000 This one did it.

00:35:13.000 Right.

00:35:14.000 Measles, mum, strubella, chickenpox.

00:35:16.000 They didn't.

00:35:17.000 It could be, maybe, I'm not saying it is.

00:35:20.000 I'm just saying this is what the data appears to reflect.

00:35:22.000 What I just told you about with cardiovascular disease and cancer, they're all in PubMed.

00:35:27.000 They're all PubMed studies.

00:35:28.000 They're all in the published literature.

00:35:30.000 And they're all consistent having the findings that I just described.

00:35:33.000 I'm just a lawyer.

00:35:34.000 I'm just repeating to you what the data reflects.

00:35:37.000 It could be that having those furbile childhood infections conferred a survival advantage overall.

00:35:44.000 And it could be the reason they never actually went away over time, became less obviously pathogenic.

00:35:50.000 So it has like a hermetic effect and it makes you physically stronger somehow or another.

00:35:54.000 It makes your immune system stronger, your cardiovascular, like a stress test.

00:36:00.000 I mean, it's not outside the realm of possibility, right?

00:36:02.000 I mean, if lifting weights makes you stronger and, you know, studying makes you smarter, wouldn't it make sense that some form of infection that you recover from will make you more resilient?

00:36:12.000 It does make sense.

00:36:15.000 It's just like no one wants to say, hey, you should go get measles.

00:36:18.000 Look, theory in this world.

00:36:20.000 Yeah, theory relativity is not intuitive.

00:36:22.000 Why is it as you approach a more massive object or approach the speed of light, does time relatively slow down?

00:36:29.000 I don't know if it makes sense or not.

00:36:31.000 It's just what when you put two atomic clocks on a plane, one on the ground, one in the plane, you fly it around the earth, they're not ticking the same, so there it is.

00:36:39.000 Right.

00:36:40.000 You can't pretend that it's not.

00:36:41.000 That is what it is.

00:36:42.000 It doesn't have to make sense to be true.

00:36:44.000 That's a good point.

00:36:45.000 That's just what it is.

00:36:46.000 And I'm just saying what the studies show.

00:36:48.000 Very inconvenient, a lot of cognitions there, but it could very well be that our whole, this whole program, not only do we, so going back to your whole, going all the way back to your point, you're like, well, they'll say vaccines are so important.

00:37:00.000 We've got to give them this immunity.

00:37:02.000 No.

00:37:03.000 In fact, quite the opposite.

00:37:05.000 Our babies are so precious, are so important.

00:37:09.000 We want to make sure we have the safest possible product you can have.

00:37:13.000 And the way to do that is to make sure the companies have an economic interest to make sure they're as safe as possible.

00:37:20.000 I agree with you entirely.

00:37:21.000 But if I was questioning anything, I would say, okay, if we don't have genetic immunity anymore, because our parents didn't have it, because our parents are vaccinated against measles, wouldn't it be better to keep vaccinating people rather than let a whole bunch of people with no immunity to measles get it, particularly like older people?

00:37:43.000 So this is a really important point, actually.

00:37:46.000 I agree with you in this.

00:37:47.000 Because here's the comment before we get to one.

00:37:51.000 When they mandated vaccines or when they started giving them to people was what, in like the early 60s, I believe?

00:37:57.000 For measles vaccines.

00:37:58.000 For measles.

00:37:59.000 Did a lot of people resist it?

00:38:01.000 Was it back then?

00:38:01.000 Were the hippies opting out?

00:38:04.000 Is there like a group that you could follow and track that never got it, never got the vaccine while everybody else did?

00:38:11.000 It has to be, right?

00:38:12.000 I'm sure there is a group out there you can identify.

00:38:15.000 I mean, the Amish.

00:38:16.000 There you go.

00:38:17.000 So, you know, which we represent right now because New York's trying to basically kick them out of New York for not vaccinating.

00:38:17.000 Right.

00:38:25.000 That's crazy.

00:38:26.000 We just won, we just, in the U.S. Supreme Court, we were just successful in vacating the lower court decisions just a few weeks ago.

00:38:34.000 Do you remember when Kathy Hochel was talking about the vaccines like they're a gift from God?

00:38:39.000 She believes it.

00:38:40.000 But do you remember how she was saying it?

00:38:41.000 It's like, in any other business, if you were running a pharmaceutical drug business, if you were running Chevy and you're making a new Corvette and you started talking about how this Corvette is a gift from God, everybody will go, oh, Kathy's cracked.

00:38:56.000 Like, what are you talking about?

00:38:57.000 It's a bunch of engineers.

00:38:59.000 We put together a great car.

00:39:00.000 Like, what do you, it's a gift from God.

00:39:02.000 What?

00:39:03.000 People don't say, I believe in tables or I believe in chairs.

00:39:06.000 I believe in TVs and I believe in wallpaper.

00:39:09.000 But they say, I believe in vaccines all the time because it carries a truism.

00:39:12.000 But do they work?

00:39:13.000 Like, does the measles vaccine prevent people from getting measles?

00:39:17.000 Or is it a leaky vaccine?

00:39:18.000 Is it a completely – so answering that and your prior question at the same time.

00:39:24.000 Sorry.

00:39:24.000 No, no, no, don't be sad.

00:39:25.000 I'm very scattered.

00:39:26.000 No, you're not saying that at all.

00:39:31.000 Is that the measles vaccine, measles, MMR vaccine and chickenpox vaccine can prevent transmission?

00:39:38.000 That is not true of most vaccines, but those can't.

00:39:42.000 So those can.

00:39:44.000 Those can.

00:39:45.000 And so to your, now going back, so that's the differential.

00:39:49.000 And in fact, for most of the other vaccines, like pertussis vaccine and so forth, they make you more likely to spread the pathogen if you're vaccinated.

00:39:56.000 And I can tell you all about that.

00:39:57.000 But before I do that, let me just point out that to your last comment, because measles, MMR vaccine and chickenpox vaccine can prevent transmission, you are correct.

00:40:08.000 If measles were to come through society right now, right now, in the current time, it would be problematic because babies who aren't supposed to get it would be more likely to get it because the mothers aren't conferring the same maternal immunity that they did in the pre-vaccine era because the vaccine doesn't confer the same level of immunity anywhere near.

00:40:27.000 And older folks, because the vaccine is nowhere as efficacious as having had the infection, depending on the study, 2% to 10% do not sero convert even after two doses, meaning they are not getting immunity at all, pretty much, or immunity that's considered immune.

00:40:44.000 Is this when they take it later in life or when they take it when they're young?

00:40:47.000 This is when they take it when they're young.

00:40:50.000 And that's why when there's a measles outbreak, a lot of times you'll hear a call to even have folks who are older get the measles vaccine again, right?

00:40:57.000 There's guidance on that because it doesn't confer.

00:41:00.000 If you've had measles, you're done.

00:41:01.000 You never need a vaccine.

00:41:03.000 Again, you'll never get measles again.

00:41:05.000 One and done.

00:41:07.000 So yes, It would be problematic right now for those for MMR, measles bones rubella, and chickenpox to just kind of let it rip.

00:41:19.000 You would have to really, you know, have an educational campaign beforehand if you were going to do that.

00:41:24.000 But for the other vaccines, Hep B vaccine, pertussis vaccine, not a problem.

00:41:29.000 Those vaccines don't stop transmission.

00:41:31.000 And I would go into that.

00:41:33.000 Kind of crazy that they give that to babies.

00:41:36.000 It's kind of crazy.

00:41:37.000 Kind of crazy if the parent aren't intervening as drug users or whatever, whatever would give them Hep B, that you're going to inject a baby with a vaccine that prevents them from getting a sexually transmitted disease and like a rarely, you got to be doing something rough.

00:41:56.000 Joe, you just don't understand what goes on in the NICU.

00:42:01.000 I mean, it just seems crazy.

00:42:04.000 It is.

00:42:04.000 And here, I'll give you another data point, which is in Denmark, okay, there is no Hep B, universal Hep B for kids.

00:42:15.000 The only time they give Hep B in Denmark is if the mother is Hep B positive.

00:42:20.000 So their Hep B vaccination rate amongst children is like 0.1% or something to that effect.

00:42:26.000 Okay.

00:42:27.000 So here you go.

00:42:29.000 Two first world countries, America and Denmark.

00:42:31.000 Universal Hep B here, virtually zero Hep B vaccine given there.

00:42:35.000 The rate of Hep B amongst children, not statistically significant.

00:42:39.000 You know what is different between those two countries?

00:42:41.000 The rate of harm from Hep B vaccine, that's different.

00:42:47.000 You know what a baby's never died of on the first day of life?

00:42:50.000 Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has died of on the first day of life?

00:42:54.000 Hepatitis B vaccine.

00:42:55.000 In fact, adjudicated as such not long ago for a newborn that died from a Hep B vaccine.

00:43:00.000 And I said earlier you can't sue the manufacturers.

00:43:03.000 You cannot.

00:43:05.000 There is a little program, though, in the federal government where you can bring a claim if you're injured from a vaccine.

00:43:09.000 That's what I'm talking about right now.

00:43:10.000 I went about the hep baby that died of Hep B.

00:43:13.000 It's called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

00:43:15.000 I have like 20 folks in my firm that do that work.

00:43:18.000 And, you know, it's not like a regular court.

00:43:20.000 You don't get an Article III judge, Article 3 of the Constitution, a federal judge.

00:43:24.000 You don't get any discovery as of right, which is how you prove harms.

00:43:27.000 There's a $250,000 statutory cap on pain and suffering and on death, which is ridiculous.

00:43:33.000 And it doesn't have, you know, anyways, long story short, it's paid out about $5 billion for damages and so forth from vaccines over the years.

00:43:41.000 But so I didn't want people to get confused when I said, well, how did this baby get adjudicated?

00:43:46.000 It's got adjudicated in this program.

00:43:48.000 Got it.

00:43:49.000 Got it.

00:43:51.000 So when you have conversations with people and they are the way you used to be and the way I used to be, where you just sort of just assumed that the people that are experts in their fields are doing a great job and that's why we're alive.

00:44:08.000 And you start telling them these things.

00:44:10.000 Like, are you a real problem at a cocktail party?

00:44:13.000 Like, have you ever had a conversation that just went completely sideways and they started getting angry at you for quoting things?

00:44:22.000 Yeah.

00:44:23.000 Because that's a, it's.

00:44:24.000 It's not a problem for me because I don't have no emotions or feelings about the products.

00:44:27.000 They're just products.

00:44:28.000 Right.

00:44:28.000 They're no different for me.

00:44:30.000 But a lot of folks, there's two things.

00:44:35.000 First, for some, like medical professionals, a lot of them seem to derive a lot of their self-schema almost, their value, their worth from these products.

00:44:44.000 They saved humanity.

00:44:46.000 How could you question that?

00:44:47.000 We are the saviors, right?

00:44:49.000 In some respects, almost like supplanting God, right?

00:44:52.000 What's the only thing that will save us during COVID?

00:44:54.000 Was it God?

00:44:54.000 No.

00:44:55.000 Vaccines.

00:44:56.000 That's the only thing.

00:44:57.000 And then for others, they think that they know, okay?

00:45:01.000 But they don't know intellectually.

00:45:03.000 They've never looked at the primary sources.

00:45:05.000 So when you challenge them with evidence, what can they draw from?

00:45:08.000 The intellect?

00:45:09.000 No.

00:45:09.000 They draw from their emotions.

00:45:11.000 They draw from their feelings, and that's why they get angry.

00:45:15.000 I get that all the time.

00:45:16.000 But I also often get folks who are just curious and interested to listen.

00:45:20.000 Well, I think there's more of those now than there's ever been before.

00:45:25.000 I think COVID, in that respect, forced the conversation you had.

00:45:25.000 Absolutely.

00:45:30.000 Millions of people who were listening to basic stuff that 10 years ago when I started doing this work, nobody talked about what is a placebo?

00:45:37.000 What's a clinical trial?

00:45:38.000 What's this stuff?

00:45:39.000 Like this became, or even the idea that a vaccine can cause a harm was even just that notion was totally taboo seven years ago.

00:45:49.000 Yeah, I think you're entirely correct.

00:45:49.000 No more.

00:45:52.000 And also, credit to YouTube, because YouTube doesn't suppress this stuff anymore, which is why I found dozens of interviews with you on YouTube.

00:45:59.000 I mean, before, I mean, I'd seen some of your stuff on social media, but then, you know, I've watched a bunch of your stuff now on YouTube.

00:46:07.000 Whereas during the pandemic, everything you said, you would have got removed.

00:46:11.000 I was removed.

00:46:12.000 Everything I said was removed.

00:46:15.000 I'll tell you the first thing that Everett posted that got said.

00:46:18.000 It was on, it was on Twitter.

00:46:19.000 Yeah, the old Twitter.

00:46:21.000 So we brought this lawsuit against the FDA to get all the documents they relied upon to license Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, okay?

00:46:27.000 Yeah.

00:46:28.000 They licensed it in 42 days.

00:46:29.000 And we said, all right, 42 days, give us all the documents, right?

00:46:32.000 And they wanted forever.

00:46:33.000 They wanted to produce at a rate of a few hundred pages a month, which would have taken hundreds of years, effectively.

00:46:39.000 Got a tranche of those documents, took some of them, literally took one of the documents and posted it.

00:46:46.000 And my tweet was just literally quoting from the document, effectively, and that was taken down as misinformation.

00:46:53.000 Pfizer's own documents submitted to the FDA.

00:46:56.000 One of the first things, that was just, that was mind-jarring.

00:47:00.000 It was stunning.

00:47:01.000 It was stunning to watch people not be outraged, too.

00:47:04.000 When information was getting out about different people that were silenced, Jay Bhattacharya and all those different people that were getting attacked, Martin Koldorf.

00:47:13.000 It was stunning how no one was going, hey, what is going on here?

00:47:18.000 This seems really weird that you're removing posts from guys from MIT and Stanford and banning their accounts.

00:47:24.000 Like, that's fucking crazy.

00:47:26.000 And until Elon purchased Twitter, we really didn't know the extent of it.

00:47:30.000 We didn't really, we really weren't aware if that was government involvement that they were stepping in to remove and remove malinformation.

00:47:38.000 That was my favorite.

00:47:39.000 They came up with, you know, that one?

00:47:41.000 Disinformation, malinformation, all that.

00:47:43.000 Mal is the best.

00:47:44.000 Because it's true information that might cause problems, which is fucking almost everything.

00:47:51.000 As soon as you have a problem with malinformation, like you are encouraging the creepiest kind of groupthink that's available, and no one freaked out.

00:48:00.000 Well, a few people freaked out, but not enough.

00:48:02.000 It wasn't, it should have been bipartisan.

00:48:04.000 It should have been a bipartisan freak out.

00:48:06.000 It should have been left and right, but it got politicized in this really stupid way where people on the left were pro-vaccine and pro-pharmaceutical drug company and pro-narrative.

00:48:16.000 And people on the right were like, I'm going to take my chances.

00:48:18.000 And those were the kooks. 0.95

00:48:20.000 And, you know, it was this like ideological battle as much as it was a public health crisis.

00:48:26.000 Censorship was bad.

00:48:27.000 It was very bad.

00:48:28.000 Real bad.

00:48:29.000 But I'll tell you what made me think people were going to go into the street with pitchforks was when the government told everybody stay at home.

00:48:39.000 That wasn't hidden.

00:48:40.000 That wasn't behind the scenes, the stuff you're talking about.

00:48:43.000 They said, stay in your house.

00:48:46.000 They didn't say, we recommend you stay in your houses.

00:48:51.000 They didn't say we recommend you get this vaccine.

00:48:54.000 We don't recommend you wear this mask.

00:48:56.000 They said, stay in your house.

00:48:59.000 When they had that first order came down, I was like, people are just going to be outraged.

00:49:04.000 People are going to protest.

00:49:05.000 And when they didn't, that's what dismayed me personally.

00:49:08.000 And I'll tell you why.

00:49:10.000 Okay.

00:49:11.000 Because when you think about civil and individual rights, First Amendment, the right to free speech, the assembly, right?

00:49:19.000 That was passed and adopted by the states in 1791.

00:49:23.000 What's the First Amendment intended to do?

00:49:25.000 It's restricted government from infringing on those rights.

00:49:29.000 You think life was easy in 1791?

00:49:31.000 What do you think life was like in 1791?

00:49:33.000 You think it was easy?

00:49:35.000 I think it was all hunky-dory.

00:49:37.000 Life in 1791 was brutal!

00:49:41.000 Brutal!

00:49:42.000 You want to talk about disease, pestilence, famine, war?

00:49:47.000 You want to talk about a life that is no electricity, no running water, no sewing, nothing.

00:49:52.000 And that amendment was passed for times that are more brutal than that.

00:49:57.000 And here comes a virus.

00:50:01.000 And every right you have is basically taken away.

00:50:04.000 And Americans are like, take it.

00:50:09.000 Take it away.

00:50:11.000 That is what outraged me.

00:50:12.000 Because look, what was the whole point of this country?

00:50:16.000 What is America born out of, in my view?

00:50:20.000 It's born out of the idea that every other government that preceded it got it wrong in the following sense.

00:50:28.000 Your life should not be dictated by a king or a dictator or a polit bureau or a central authority.

00:50:35.000 It's the idea that you are born with inalienable rights.

00:50:38.000 You should be able to choose your destiny, including what risks you want to take.

00:50:43.000 Individual rights come with risks.

00:50:45.000 Letting Joe Rogan say what he wants on this podcast comes with risks.

00:50:50.000 Letting you practice what religion you want, assemble with who you want, especially in Austin.

00:50:54.000 Very interesting time yesterday.

00:50:56.000 That comes with risks, let me tell you.

00:50:58.000 A lot of risks, okay?

00:51:00.000 But the greater risk is always ceding that right to the government, because once you do, you don't get it back often.

00:51:06.000 And so, yes, there was that hidden stuff you talk about.

00:51:08.000 And that was bad.

00:51:09.000 Don't get me wrong.

00:51:10.000 That was bad stuff.

00:51:11.000 That's really, really bad.

00:51:13.000 But the stuff they did in the open to me, in some ways, was even worse.

00:51:18.000 And I hope that there's a lesson that folks learn from that.

00:51:21.000 Because let me tell you something.

00:51:22.000 Even if you love every vaccine out there, you're listening to this.

00:51:25.000 You love every vaccine.

00:51:27.000 You love every mask, right?

00:51:29.000 Great.

00:51:30.000 I support every American's right.

00:51:31.000 You're 17, you're 18, you're totally healthy, no comorbidities, and you want to get a vaccine a day, wear 70 masks, and live in your basement in a self-imposed state home order.

00:51:40.000 This is America.

00:51:41.000 I support your right to do it.

00:51:42.000 I'll fight for your right to do that.

00:51:43.000 And you're 90 and you're a war veteran and you want to go to the, you have 16 comorbidities and you want to go to the coffee shop with no vaccine and no mask, you should be free to do that because that's America too.

00:51:53.000 That's freedom also.

00:51:54.000 Just like you can bullride.

00:51:56.000 And if you don't stand up for that right now, the day comes when there's something, a medical product you don't want, the government says you have to get.

00:52:05.000 Because trust me, it is so much cheaper to lobby to get a medical product required than it is to market to get people to get it.

00:52:13.000 Oh, they've learned that lesson.

00:52:15.000 That's why there's so much lobbying to get mandates, get rid of exemptions across the country that you don't want and you can't get a job and you can't go to school and you can't leave your house, then what good are the rest of your rights?

00:52:28.000 They're useless.

00:52:29.000 That's why medical liberty truly is a fundamental right.

00:52:32.000 I'm off my high horse.

00:52:33.000 No, it's a great high horse.

00:52:34.000 That was an awesome rant.

00:52:35.000 You're absolutely 100% on the money.

00:52:38.000 And it's such an important thing to get out there, to get people to understand that It's such a natural human inclination to when you're in a place of power, of control, any form of government, you want more control.

00:52:57.000 And it's just natural.

00:52:59.000 And what you're talking about, when you lose rights, you very rarely get them back.

00:53:03.000 That was so on display in California with the COVID regulations because they had everybody locked down way past where they had to.

00:53:13.000 A friend of mine's brother worked in one of the COVID, some government office when they were considering the closing of outdoor dining.

00:53:24.000 And he brought up, but there's no transmission related to outdoor dining.

00:53:30.000 And the woman who was in charge said, yes, but it's all about the optics.

00:53:34.000 So she was willing to, with a wave of her magic wand, shut down outdoor dining for a bunch of small family businesses that were probably barely staying alive after COVID.

00:53:48.000 Barely.

00:53:49.000 We lost somewhere around 70% of Los Angeles restaurants went under during COVID.

00:53:54.000 That's fucking bananas.

00:53:56.000 And so they finally get outdoor dining.

00:53:58.000 Like, okay, we could kind of pay the bills this month.

00:54:01.000 And then they shut down outdoor dining for optics.

00:54:04.000 So this kind of desire to just put a foot down, control people, keep a boot on their neck, it's normal, even if it doesn't make sense.

00:54:13.000 Everybody knows that from high school.

00:54:15.000 Everybody knows that from, I mean, the Stanford prison experiments.

00:54:19.000 People like to control people.

00:54:21.000 They enjoy it.

00:54:22.000 And when they get a place like becoming the mayor or becoming the governor and being able to tell people, oh, you got to listen to me.

00:54:29.000 I've got rule.

00:54:30.000 Everyone stay inside.

00:54:31.000 Be scared.

00:54:33.000 Fucking California.

00:54:35.000 Garcetti literally had a campaign that said snitches get rewards.

00:54:41.000 Snitches.

00:54:42.000 Snitching on people.

00:54:43.000 Having more than one person over your house.

00:54:45.000 Standing too close in the backyard.

00:54:47.000 You get money.

00:54:49.000 You get money for ratting out your neighbor.

00:54:52.000 This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp in honor of International Women's Day.

00:54:56.000 BetterHelp is celebrating the women in your life.

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00:55:59.000 Well, when the government gets it wrong, they always always double down because, and that's the problem with the mandates.

00:56:05.000 Once they've required it, they have taken a position.

00:56:10.000 And then to admit they're wrong, often what government ends up saying is, oh, well, we're the CDC.

00:56:16.000 If we admit we're wrong about this, that's going to hurt our ability to influence the public.

00:56:21.000 And that's more important than admitting we're wrong on this or correcting course because our legitimacy, our ability to influence the public is so important.

00:56:31.000 We have to, you know, we can't admit we're wrong.

00:56:33.000 That's what Bobby's doing right now when some of these things is, you know, is some of the stuff, like the new autism page on the CDC website, for example, is contrary to anything I've ever seen come out of the federal health authorities to date.

00:56:49.000 But yes, it's disturbing.

00:56:51.000 And it's why government should, no public health authority should ever be able to tell you and infringe on your rights.

00:56:59.000 They should be able to recommend, recommend the law, recommend like crazy, but never do it.

00:57:04.000 Because that is the normal course of how tyranny dictators, bullies, thugs operate. 0.87

00:57:13.000 First, they tell you what to do.

00:57:15.000 You don't listen, apply a little pressure.

00:57:18.000 You don't listen, then they mandate.

00:57:21.000 You still don't listen?

00:57:22.000 They censor you.

00:57:24.000 Still, take away more of your rights.

00:57:26.000 That is the normal progression throughout history.

00:57:28.000 And we saw it happen in front of our eyes, which is why it should be a line in the sand.

00:57:33.000 Federal health authorities, state health authorities should be able to recommend and encourage, never mandate, ever.

00:57:39.000 Fauci literally expressed it that way.

00:57:42.000 I'm sure you've heard that recording of him.

00:57:44.000 He said, once people realize they can't go to work, they'll drop their ideological bullshit and they'll get vaccinated.

00:57:52.000 Like he's essentially telling them, you're going to make people's life hell and they will do what you want them to do.

00:58:00.000 Not they will have free will, they will have the ability to choose.

00:58:04.000 No, no, no.

00:58:05.000 You will make them do what you want.

00:58:08.000 Who wants a government that persuades you on the merits?

00:58:08.000 Yeah.

00:58:11.000 Forget that.

00:58:12.000 But imagine that that is something that someone said out loud.

00:58:16.000 But that I don't think that what Fauci was saying is anything.

00:58:23.000 Fauci, everything in my view that you saw during COVID is not like some giant leap into some new territory.

00:58:32.000 To me, it's just another natural step in progression from where we've gone over the last 40 years with vaccines.

00:58:38.000 Fauci saying that is no different than school mandates right now to get children.

00:58:44.000 Most states have, 45 states have basically checked the box exemption to send your kids to school.

00:58:49.000 There's about five that don't.

00:58:51.000 They're trying to eliminate exemptions, right?

00:58:55.000 Clearly, they're able to persuade most parents on the merits, but yet they can't take it.

00:59:00.000 They can't take that.

00:59:01.000 A 2%, 3%, 4% just will not take these products.

00:59:06.000 And I'll tell you, by the way, most of these folks are.

00:59:08.000 They're the folks who really need the exemptions because most people who don't choose to take childhood vaccines, they don't typically just wake up and decide to do that for fun.

00:59:18.000 Not many people wake up one day and go, you know what I'm going to do today?

00:59:22.000 I'm going to take a socially ostracizing position.

00:59:25.000 I'm going to get my kids kicked out of school, me thrown out of my job.

00:59:27.000 My friends call me an anti-this, an anti-that, you know, you name it, all the horribles that come with not vaccinating.

00:59:34.000 No, most people don't vaccinate, don't vaccinate because they've had a very, very personal or negative experience with these products.

00:59:44.000 They or one of their kids or one of their family members, or they've learned stuff they cannot learn about them.

00:59:48.000 Okay.

00:59:48.000 They have usually a very good reason not to.

00:59:51.000 And yet, as you saw during COVID, it's not about, in many respects, the medicine to the examples you gave.

01:00:03.000 It's about they cannot stand that somebody is not agreeing with their beliefs.

01:00:08.000 They cannot extend the exceptions.

01:00:10.000 Those who stand up say, no, I've come to a different medical conclusion.

01:00:15.000 They can't let that exist.

01:00:17.000 Right.

01:00:17.000 That is what it is.

01:00:19.000 And it happens for people regardless of their religious status.

01:00:26.000 It's a weird thing.

01:00:27.000 It is like a religion.

01:00:29.000 I mean, which is why I'm so glad you wrote your book that way, because I think there's these natural patterns of groupthink and of just complying that people automatically fall into.

01:00:43.000 It's very easy.

01:00:44.000 That's why people can get people to join cults.

01:00:46.000 That's why people are part of like weird Christian sects. 0.82

01:00:49.000 They're like, wait, what do you guys do?

01:00:51.000 Huh?

01:00:51.000 You're like, who's the guy?

01:00:53.000 Who's the head guy?

01:00:54.000 And he gets to marry everybody?

01:00:54.000 This guy?

01:00:56.000 Okay.

01:00:56.000 What?

01:00:58.000 Well, that's what happens.

01:00:59.000 It's normal.

01:01:00.000 It's a normal thing.

01:01:01.000 And if you scale it outward, it goes to a lot of stuff.

01:01:04.000 There's a lot of stuff that people just have these like climate change as a religion right now.

01:01:09.000 Like there's certain people that if you confront them with like the actual ones that are willing to question the narrative that are legitimate clients, scientists, they'll tell you, like, it is so complicated to figure out what is causing the changes in the Earth's climate, warmth and cold, and the fact that it's never been static ever in human history, never before humans, never millions of years.

01:01:34.000 It's done this crazy thing.

01:01:36.000 It involves the precession of the equinoxes and the fucking polar vortex and it's a lot of, and then also stuff we burn.

01:01:43.000 That too.

01:01:44.000 But, like, what percentage is what?

01:01:46.000 But it doesn't matter.

01:01:46.000 You can't have that conversation.

01:01:48.000 It's like you questioning, you know, whatever Messiah this person believes in.

01:01:53.000 They'll just lock down.

01:01:55.000 And climate change is this.

01:01:57.000 Not one climate change prediction of doom has been accurate.

01:02:01.000 Not one.

01:02:02.000 Not even in the ballpark.

01:02:03.000 You remember the fucking Al Gore movie?

01:02:06.000 Yeah.

01:02:06.000 We're supposed to be dead.

01:02:08.000 Meanwhile, they're all buying fucking oceanfront houses in Maui.

01:02:13.000 You know, get out of here. 0.53

01:02:15.000 Shut the fuck up. 1.00

01:02:15.000 This is another thing. 1.00

01:02:17.000 This is another thing.

01:02:18.000 Like, yeah, we shouldn't pollute.

01:02:19.000 Yeah.

01:02:19.000 We shouldn't release particulates in the atmosphere.

01:02:21.000 Yeah.

01:02:21.000 We should have clean energy.

01:02:23.000 But also, you guys are crooks.

01:02:23.000 Yeah.

01:02:25.000 You guys are a bunch of crooks that are making money off of this idea that you're forcing down everybody's throat, that everybody's got a green new deal and everybody's got to do renewable this and renewable.

01:02:35.000 And then who's got money invested in all this stuff?

01:02:38.000 A bunch of people who are pushing it.

01:02:40.000 And it's a fucking scam.

01:02:42.000 Just like so many of these things are fucking scams.

01:02:45.000 Doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of the damage that we're doing to the earth.

01:02:49.000 We should probably stop overfishing the ocean.

01:02:52.000 We should probably stop dumping shit into the rivers.

01:02:55.000 You know who used to go to court for that?

01:02:55.000 100%.

01:02:58.000 Bobby Krishna.

01:02:59.000 R.F.K. Jr.

01:03:00.000 He fucking cranks.

01:03:02.000 The guy who is like cleaning up the East River.

01:03:05.000 That's Bobby Kennedy Jr.

01:03:07.000 He was the guy.

01:03:09.000 And an easy way to identify that somebody is not really coming at you with science and they're coming at you with belief, religion.

01:03:17.000 Is exactly what you just said, which is they're not willing to debate.

01:03:17.000 Yes.

01:03:22.000 They're not willing to discuss it.

01:03:24.000 They're not willing to engage because that is antithetical to the scientific method.

01:03:29.000 The whole idea is it's never settled.

01:03:31.000 The whole idea is you push the fringes, you push new theories, you push new ideas.

01:03:36.000 Where would science be if you said this is it?

01:03:38.000 Of course.

01:03:39.000 That is the whole notion of it.

01:03:41.000 Dispassionately looking at it over and over and over and seeing what more you can learn.

01:03:47.000 And the moment somebody says, no, we need to stop.

01:03:49.000 You can't discuss, you can't debate that, that's when you know you're dealing with religion, not science.

01:03:53.000 And when I've talked to certain scientists in different fields that feel very constricted by the academic environment, one of the things that they point to is that the group think involved in that is just like the group think involved in everything and left-wing politics, whatever it is.

01:04:09.000 Just figure out whatever it is, right-wing politics.

01:04:11.000 Groupthink in academia is also higher, it's hierarchical.

01:04:16.000 There's tiers, and you got to agree with everybody that's above you.

01:04:21.000 You want to get tenure, you want to progress, you want to get grants.

01:04:24.000 It's got to be, you guys got to be in line on all this shit.

01:04:27.000 And he's like, and anybody thinks out of the box is ruthlessly attacked.

01:04:31.000 And even when they turn out to be correct, no one apologizes.

01:04:35.000 No, they are reluctantly agree that the person was initially correct, but they'll destroy their career if they can.

01:04:42.000 He's like, the pissing matches are horrifying.

01:04:45.000 And these are the people that are in charge of telling you what's real in the world.

01:04:50.000 They're just like everybody else.

01:04:53.000 They have ego and there's a fucking social scramble going on at all times.

01:04:58.000 And people are playing succession and Game of Thrones.

01:05:01.000 It's like the reality is not what you're being told in the news.

01:05:07.000 What you're being told in the news is a narrative.

01:05:09.000 And when the news has a giant chunk of their money for advertising, it's paid by pharmaceutical drug companies and they never criticize him.

01:05:17.000 You're like, this is wild.

01:05:19.000 Like, this is wild.

01:05:22.000 This is America in 2026.

01:05:24.000 And the only way you can find out what's kind of real is on the internet.

01:05:30.000 Yes.

01:05:31.000 And also, when it comes to censorship, if I said some totally crazy, stupid thing about you that was totally untrue, like ignore it.

01:05:43.000 If I said it about government, they ignore it.

01:05:44.000 When do they censor?

01:05:46.000 They censor when it's true because that's when they're scared.

01:05:49.000 If you start talking about the government being lizard people, nobody's going to comes for you. 0.97

01:05:49.000 Right. 0.97

01:05:54.000 They're all shapeshifters. 1.00

01:05:55.000 Nobody cares.

01:05:57.000 But when you start talking about something that's true, that's when it hurts.

01:06:03.000 That's what they need to suppress.

01:06:04.000 You think they need to suppress stuff about, I don't know, a certain island with that.

01:06:09.000 If it's not true, no.

01:06:11.000 But if it is true, that's when it gets scary.

01:06:14.000 And that's when you need suppression.

01:06:16.000 Right.

01:06:16.000 And also, I'll note, I went to Berkeley for law school.

01:06:19.000 So I'm familiar with a little bit of what you're just talking about from that experience too.

01:06:24.000 Even though it was over two decades ago, it was going strong back then.

01:06:27.000 It was going strong back then, but I feel like it was much more reasonable.

01:06:31.000 Like, I used to love San Francisco back then.

01:06:33.000 It was a great town to visit.

01:06:35.000 They were smart.

01:06:36.000 They were cool.

01:06:37.000 They were laid-back.

01:06:38.000 People liked to drink, but they were fun.

01:06:40.000 They always seemed like a smarter LA that got out of show business.

01:06:44.000 San Francisco, Berkeley, were two different things.

01:06:48.000 I completely agree.

01:06:49.000 And even in, I mean, let's go outside the bubble of Berkeley from 20 years ago.

01:06:54.000 Look back over 20 years ago.

01:06:56.000 Who was fighting for civil individual rights?

01:06:59.000 It was the left.

01:07:02.000 ACLU.

01:07:03.000 Think about Skokie, Illinois, right?

01:07:05.000 Fighting for the neo-Nazis to be able to march through a Jewish town to say what they want.

01:07:09.000 Who fought that case?

01:07:10.000 Who protected their right to say that?

01:07:13.000 Democrat, ACLU, liberal lawyers and liberal judges.

01:07:17.000 And they said protecting their right to say the things they're saying is despicable, as horrible as we might find it, protects all our right to free speech.

01:07:25.000 Could you imagine those same folks today bringing that case and deciding that way?

01:07:29.000 No way.

01:07:30.000 And what's stunning is that if you asked anybody alive then, if you had ultimate access to information, literally you could pick up your phone and ask it any question about anything and get information instantaneously, would people be more or less informed?

01:07:30.000 No way.

01:07:51.000 You would say, well, certainly they'll be more informed, so there'll be more understanding of the value of free speech, and they'll know more about that ruling and what a brave stance they took to allow the KKK to march and how it just shows intellectual superiority.

01:08:04.000 The way to beat a bad idea is not to silence it, is to argue it with a much better idea.

01:08:11.000 That you would think by 2026, well, they'll be way better.

01:08:14.000 This would be a super advanced society of flying cars.

01:08:17.000 No.

01:08:19.000 It's more ideologically captured, more wrapped up in the algorithm, which I think is probably at least 50% fake.

01:08:29.000 50% is a bunch of bots tweeting a bunch of shit that they don't even believe.

01:08:34.000 They're just trying to rile people up and stir people up and push certain narratives.

01:08:39.000 And then people are locked into it 12 hours a day, so they're really crazy.

01:08:42.000 And no one's considering things like the important.

01:08:46.000 Well, let's go back to old cases and let's look at why they did that.

01:08:49.000 And it's like, no, no, no, no.

01:08:50.000 Everybody's like captured with whatever the fuck is on TikTok today.

01:08:53.000 What's the latest stupid thing you're supposed to be paying attention to?

01:08:56.000 And the fact that now we're at war, right?

01:08:59.000 Okay.

01:09:00.000 Great.

01:09:02.000 Social media and the scrolling through those videos, which is what you're describing, I think, is so troubling.

01:09:08.000 First of all, my understanding is that they just show you stuff that confirms what you already believe because that's what you want to see.

01:09:14.000 You want to see the things that you already agree with.

01:09:17.000 So you just get this credible confirmation bias that happens, which is antithetical to thinking critically, to really opening your mind to it.

01:09:25.000 And then you end up, you know, without because without actually understanding both sides of an argument, without really understanding it.

01:09:32.000 I mean, look, I understand the stuff about vaccines that I know which ones stop transmission.

01:09:37.000 Right.

01:09:37.000 And I know which ones don't.

01:09:39.000 Right.

01:09:40.000 And I don't have to live in the world of believing, for example.

01:09:42.000 They all do.

01:09:44.000 I know how much death there was before each vaccine.

01:09:46.000 And I know, so I don't have to say, didn't ever save any life.

01:09:50.000 And I don't have to say millions would die.

01:09:52.000 I just, the data's the data.

01:09:54.000 Right?

01:09:55.000 And, but you're not, if all you're getting is one viewpoint all the time, you're not, you get this terrible confirmation bias.

01:10:01.000 And did you see this recent study that I just read the abstract, so I didn't delve into it.

01:10:06.000 But apparently watching social media reduces your IQ over time, you know, just doing all of that scrolling.

01:10:14.000 That's really scary when you think about our current generation.

01:10:17.000 Yeah.

01:10:18.000 Imagine if it could make you smarter.

01:10:19.000 How many more people would be interested in doing it?

01:10:22.000 Like if there was a thing, if you could just stare at your phone for a few hours a day and you get significantly smarter, it's a 10-point jump in IQ.

01:10:22.000 Right?

01:10:29.000 You know, my wife calls our Wi-Fi at our house.

01:10:31.000 She found the Wi-Fi, it's called read a book.

01:10:34.000 That's funny.

01:10:35.000 That's funny.

01:10:36.000 And then you hear things like you shouldn't have Wi-Fi in your house because all the signals flying around are bad for you.

01:10:41.000 You're like, well, how bad?

01:10:43.000 Like, what is that?

01:10:43.000 Are you sure?

01:10:44.000 Like, how long have we been doing the Wi-Fi thing?

01:10:47.000 A decade, two decades, three decades?

01:10:49.000 I mean, on the course of the length of humanity, that's not very long.

01:10:53.000 It's not very long.

01:10:54.000 I mean, look, I hope Wi-Fi is not killing us.

01:10:56.000 It's so convenient.

01:10:56.000 I really do.

01:10:58.000 Look at most.

01:10:59.000 Listen, obviously, most things that will just kill you get identified.

01:11:04.000 Right.

01:11:04.000 It's not the things that kill you immediately that are a problem, typically, because they killed you.

01:11:09.000 And so, you know, it's the things that cause slow issues, ongoing issues.

01:11:15.000 I mean, we know folks who work in high power lines have higher, far higher rates of cancer.

01:11:19.000 Study after study reflects that.

01:11:21.000 Which makes sense.

01:11:22.000 I mean, and look, iPod's bad for you.

01:11:26.000 You know what I mean?

01:11:27.000 If AirPods are bad in your ears, imagine being next to those power lines.

01:11:31.000 What does that do to you?

01:11:33.000 I don't want to go down this rabbit hole because it's not my area per se, but for the whole length of humanity, right, when you think of the spectrum, right?

01:11:43.000 We were pretty much only exposed to natural light, which is a very narrow light, narrow band of the spectrum, okay?

01:11:49.000 Right?

01:11:50.000 When you think of waves.

01:11:51.000 So as you go down on the left side of the spectrum, the waves get longer, like AM waves, really long, FM waves, microwaves, natural light, and then above that, you get X-rays, cosmic rays.

01:12:02.000 And anything above natural light, they say, oh, it's really bad.

01:12:05.000 That's just going to mess you up.

01:12:06.000 And stuff below natural light, they say, well, as long as it doesn't heat up your cells, that's typically the standard our government uses, it's safe.

01:12:15.000 So as long as it's not heating your cell, but that's not, that's a very old standard, but it's still the one in effect today.

01:12:23.000 So in any event, when you think about microwaves, they said stay away from it, even those below natural light.

01:12:30.000 There's, you know, what is the cumulative effect of being, if you put your Wi-Fi right under your bed every night your whole life, what is the effect?

01:12:39.000 There are numerous studies that show that it does have certain effects.

01:12:42.000 But anyway, it's not worth going down that road.

01:12:44.000 But yeah.

01:12:45.000 But it might just be minor or it might be cumulative, right?

01:12:49.000 Yeah.

01:12:49.000 And then how about cell phone signals?

01:12:51.000 You can't even stop those.

01:12:53.000 They're around you all the time.

01:12:55.000 Yeah.

01:12:55.000 I mean, if you can FaceTime someone in New Zealand right now from your phone, clearly something's going on in the air.

01:13:01.000 I'll put it this way.

01:13:02.000 Every environmental insult has the potential to cause some kind of dysregulation in your body, whether it's microplastics, whether it's you name it, okay?

01:13:11.000 And the precautionary principle would indicate that until you know it's safe, the onus is on those who want to expose you to it to prove to you it is, right?

01:13:20.000 It shouldn't be the other way around.

01:13:22.000 I don't think anybody has to prove to you that Wi-Fi is not safe to say, you know what, based on the precautionary principle, I'm just going to turn off the Wi-Fi every night in my house because I don't know.

01:13:31.000 Like, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me because humans have been exposed to forever.

01:13:37.000 I've not seen the studies that validate that it doesn't cause an issue or large robust studies.

01:13:42.000 And so, you know, but obviously, I think what I just said, some people might hear and go, well, that sounds crazy.

01:13:49.000 Well, why?

01:13:51.000 Why would it be crazy if we found out that there's a particular frequency that's bad for your memory or bad for your brain and that we're using it to broadcast something?

01:13:59.000 That completely makes sense.

01:14:01.000 Yeah, except that I never think about harms the way you just said it because that would indicate that we have to find out what harms it causes.

01:14:10.000 To me, when I go into a car dealership, for example, I walk in and the salesman says, all right, this car.

01:14:19.000 Okay.

01:14:20.000 And I say, well, is it safe?

01:14:22.000 And the car dealer says to me, prove to me it's not safe.

01:14:26.000 And I said, well, and I say, well, what do you mean?

01:14:30.000 If you can't prove it, you got to take this car.

01:14:33.000 By the way, that's how vaccines work.

01:14:34.000 That's how I lie.

01:14:35.000 And that is become a little bit of the, depending on the, mostly for vaccines, but a little bit for some of these other products where it's like, you got to prove it's not safe.

01:14:43.000 No, I don't have to prove it's not safe.

01:14:45.000 I'm not buying this car.

01:14:46.000 You prove to me it's no.

01:14:47.000 You prove to me this vaccine causes harm or you better take it.

01:14:52.000 That's the way it's approached.

01:14:54.000 A little bit like that Wi-Fi and with all with 5G and the LTE and all that stuff.

01:14:58.000 It's almost like you proved to me that doing this all day is going to cause brainstorm or else you're a kook. 0.68

01:15:04.000 No, why don't you show me the study shows it doesn't do that?

01:15:07.000 That's the way it should work with products and product safety.

01:15:09.000 That makes sense.

01:15:10.000 That's very reasonable.

01:15:13.000 Again, I don't know.

01:15:15.000 I'm not saying that it does.

01:15:16.000 But what I'm saying is there's been things that human beings did and they found it was really bad for you.

01:15:21.000 We've talked about it a few times, but those ladies, they used to test the x-ray machines with their hands. 1.00

01:15:28.000 And no one told them.

01:15:30.000 No one told them that x-rays can give you cancer and fuck you up.

01:15:33.000 And these poor ladies, every day, when they would show up at the medical office, they would put their hand in the x-ray machine to make sure it worked. 1.00

01:15:40.000 And then you see their hands next to each other.

01:15:42.000 It's horrifying.

01:15:43.000 Like they got horrible lesions on their hands.

01:15:46.000 And it's like, it's really creepy.

01:15:47.000 They x-rayed pregnant women until the 70s.

01:15:50.000 Until the 70s, they were x-raying pregnant women.

01:15:53.000 Not with the x-rays of today that are far less radiation exposure, the x-rays of the 70s, which is a lot.

01:15:59.000 They gave the, I believe, the Nobel Prize.

01:16:02.000 I'm pretty sure about this for the lobotomy.

01:16:05.000 Yeah.

01:16:05.000 If I'm not mistaken.

01:16:06.000 I think they did.

01:16:07.000 I think they did.

01:16:07.000 I think they're right.

01:16:08.000 Find that out.

01:16:09.000 Jamie, put that into our sponsor perplexity.

01:16:12.000 The Nobel Prize, Peter Berg told me about the origins of it.

01:16:15.000 And I was like, wait, what?

01:16:17.000 It was a guy who made dynamite.

01:16:20.000 Dynamite.

01:16:20.000 And there was a false story about his death and in the newspaper they called him the merchant of death and he realized it and he was like, oh shit, I got to change my PR.

01:16:31.000 I got to change my image.

01:16:33.000 And so he came up with the Nobel Prize.

01:16:35.000 He started awarding this prestigious prize.

01:16:37.000 And then instead of him being connected with blowing people up with dynamite, he became connected with the most prestigious prize in all of medicine and all of government and the peace, the Nobel Peace Prize.

01:16:53.000 It's pretty crazy.

01:16:54.000 It's amazing when you have money, how you can influence the world to think certain things about, in his instance, him, in others, certain products.

01:17:03.000 Exactly.

01:17:04.000 Absolutely.

01:17:05.000 But what's really stunning is you're also allowed to influence the people that actually deliver the news, which is, you know, that's the crazy one.

01:17:13.000 Like, Callie Neans talked about that.

01:17:14.000 Like, they're advertising not because they want to sell their products with the advertisement that they're putting on the air.

01:17:21.000 They're doing that too.

01:17:22.000 But they're also ensuring that this steady stream of revenue that's going to these networks, they won't be opening up any lines of investigation into the vaccine injuries.

01:17:36.000 Like, it's not going to happen.

01:17:37.000 You're not going to see a giant CNN piece about COVID-19 vaccine injuries.

01:17:42.000 It's not happening.

01:17:43.000 It's not happening.

01:17:45.000 You're not going to hear much about anything.

01:17:47.000 It has to be a big fucking story where they have to say it or they'll just mention a judgment real quick and then move on, moving on.

01:17:56.000 The Rasmutan poll, I don't know if you remember this one, found that I believe one in four, and I think that's right, but I'm not sure 100%, people said they believe they knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine or knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine.

01:18:11.000 When you have that many people with that, with that lived experience, and yet the mainstream media, as you just said, was still able to continue to push the narrative around COVID vaccines the way they did.

01:18:24.000 The Nobel Prize.

01:18:26.000 Wow.

01:18:27.000 Nobel Prize-related lobotomy refers to a 1949 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine awarded to Antonio Agas Boniz, a Portuguese neurologist, for developing the prefrontal lobotomy.

01:18:40.000 I believe that continued until the 60s, by the way.

01:18:43.000 Yeah, imagine that he got that prize in 49.

01:18:45.000 They're like, good job.

01:18:46.000 Meaning the medical profession, as it stood in the 60s when the measles vaccine was rolling out, still doing this, by the way.

01:18:53.000 I think they stopped lobotomies in 60, was it 67?

01:18:57.000 He developed something called a leucotomy, which was slightly different than what became known as the lobotomy, which we know as like the ice pick method.

01:19:07.000 What was his?

01:19:08.000 It's also called the leucotomy.

01:19:10.000 So that was this Freeman.

01:19:13.000 That's the guy who was like the doctor.

01:19:15.000 I think they called him even Dr. Death or something.

01:19:18.000 For he did, like he did a ton of lobotomies all over the country.

01:19:21.000 Unfortunately, today you don't need a lobotomy apparently to have lobotomy.

01:19:24.000 Just to spend a lot of time on social media and get your information from certain places.

01:19:29.000 It's so bad for that.

01:19:30.000 Seems to be you can maybe end up in the same place.

01:19:32.000 It's just hard to recommend a certain amount of it.

01:19:35.000 It's like how much Twinkie should you eat a day?

01:19:38.000 I don't mind if you eat Twinkies, but if you're eating Twinkies all day long, you're going to be fucked up, man.

01:19:42.000 And that's how I feel about social media interactions.

01:19:46.000 But I do think it's an important way to distribute information.

01:19:51.000 Say if you're working for some corporation and you know something fucked up is going on and you could put it up on Twitter and with details and facts and people could look into it and you can open up a line of reporters and investigative journalists that are going to find this, expose it, and you could really break a story that is like good for everybody.

01:20:12.000 Like having a way to communicate ideas like that is fantastic.

01:20:17.000 Everything else, like all the arguing, all the shit that people do back and forth, you're just rotting your brain out.

01:20:23.000 And we're all guilty of it if you're on it.

01:20:26.000 I mean, during the COVID pandemic, when all of these government overreaches were occurring, but for the existence of social media, you know, podcasts like yours and other alternative platforms, right?

01:20:40.000 The information in many respects wouldn't have come out if you didn't have Peter McCull on, Robert Malone on, and if Fox and just that little portion of the, I guess, more traditional media wasn't willing for a time period to have folks on.

01:20:56.000 I mean, trust me, when I started doing vaccine-related work a decade ago, I never thought a single outlet, whether it's Fox or CNN, would ever have me on.

01:21:04.000 And they had me on numerous times until vaccines kind of like, all right, let's not touch that again.

01:21:10.000 Was this during this during the Biden administration then?

01:21:13.000 And I think part of that was because it was a point of contention between the right and the left, right?

01:21:19.000 It was the right opposing the draconian measures that the left who is in power, and we got to get the right back in power because we're all about freedom.

01:21:28.000 Yeah, so I think there was a little bit of that going on there, right?

01:21:31.000 For sure, there was some of that going on, as you pointed out, I believe in the past, when Trump was promoting the vaccine, we're not taking that vaccine.

01:21:40.000 And in the moment, Biden was like, we're taking the vaccine.

01:21:42.000 Tom Harris was saying it.

01:21:43.000 Why would you trust him and whatever his vaccine is?

01:21:46.000 Like, that is so crazy.

01:21:47.000 These people are fake.

01:21:48.000 I mean, if Trump came out tomorrow and said everybody should get every vaccine out there, I, you know, see what would happen.

01:21:54.000 I don't know.

01:21:55.000 That's the way he would stop saying it.

01:21:58.000 Yeah, if he really got into trans kids, they'd put a ban to it immediately.

01:22:02.000 Yeah, it's weird.

01:22:05.000 It's weird to watch.

01:22:06.000 Weird to watch us so divided and at each other's throats.

01:22:09.000 And I really do think that a giant percentage of the uptick and the craziness is just social media.

01:22:15.000 I don't think people are designed for it.

01:22:17.000 I just thank God Elon bought Twitter because if he didn't, we would not have the kind of access to the actual truth, the real data.

01:22:27.000 It would all be suppressed.

01:22:28.000 You would never find out about it.

01:22:30.000 How would you know about these studies?

01:22:32.000 You're not going to go scouring through journals.

01:22:34.000 And even if you do, what are you going to do?

01:22:35.000 Are you going to get on Rumble and talk about it?

01:22:37.000 That's probably the only way you can.

01:22:39.000 And if anybody from Rumble tries to share that on Twitter, they'll get banned.

01:22:43.000 So it's like we were in a real pickle.

01:22:46.000 It was a bad spot.

01:22:48.000 It was just a few years ago, which is nuts.

01:22:51.000 We could have gone a very different direction.

01:22:52.000 And I'll use an analogy when they remember the airlines, you know, because CDC required masks on planes.

01:22:58.000 Yeah.

01:22:59.000 When that got struck down by the courts, a number of airlines said, we're going to keep our mask mandate.

01:23:06.000 I don't know if you remember that.

01:23:07.000 They proudly came out.

01:23:08.000 The CEO said, we're going to keep it.

01:23:10.000 Half of them said they were going to keep it.

01:23:12.000 The other half immediately lifted the mask mandate on planes.

01:23:15.000 And those that decided to keep it, they dropped it within a day or two, I think, or something like that, really rapidly because economically they were losing business.

01:23:23.000 And I think that changed the center of gravity on that issue.

01:23:26.000 I think Elon buying Twitter X basically changed the center of gravity on censorship, whereby without that, they might have all just kept going even in the worst direction.

01:23:40.000 And they saw they were losing market share to X once he bought it and he didn't have censorship.

01:23:45.000 I think that conformed their conduct.

01:23:47.000 Well, it was also indicative of how people actually felt versus what was suppressed.

01:23:53.000 Like when you realize that there's, well, have you ever seen how people identifying as non-binary and trans dropped off like right after the purchase of Twitter?

01:24:06.000 It's because people got a chance to talk about it now.

01:24:08.000 And you can criticize it.

01:24:09.000 And people could put up memes and they can call it a mental illness again.

01:24:12.000 And then all of a sudden everybody's like, hey, what are we supporting?

01:24:15.000 Men with penises in the women's room? 0.99

01:24:17.000 Like, did we get hypnotized?

01:24:19.000 Like, what the fuck happened?

01:24:21.000 And now you're seeing even prestigious mainstream media publications talking about the dangers of gender transition for young kids.

01:24:32.000 Wow.

01:24:33.000 So what happened?

01:24:33.000 Okay.

01:24:34.000 What happened?

01:24:35.000 What happened was Elon bought Twitter and people were out to actually accurately gauge what people were willing to tolerate and what they actually want versus what's being shoved down everybody's throats with censorship and with mainstream media narratives.

01:24:49.000 They just keep piping back and forth, pretending everybody agrees with them.

01:24:53.000 That's one piece of it.

01:24:54.000 They're also, by the way, a lot of the hospitals and doctors are getting sued.

01:24:58.000 All left and right on this.

01:24:58.000 Right.

01:25:00.000 In fact, you know, we've especially after that first ruling, right?

01:25:04.000 We have, you know, I can't talk about it.

01:25:11.000 But very, very troubling One suicide and hiding it from parents.

01:25:18.000 Yeah.

01:25:19.000 School districts hide.

01:25:20.000 I mean, it's really troubling stuff.

01:25:22.000 Do you have children?

01:25:23.000 Yeah, I do.

01:25:24.000 I do too.

01:25:24.000 And one of the things you realize if you have children is that they are very malleable and they want to fit in and they are subject to social contagions.

01:25:35.000 And that social contagion can be dressing up, golf.

01:25:38.000 It could be like whatever it is.

01:25:39.000 Like they want to fit in and they're experimenting.

01:25:41.000 They're kids.

01:25:42.000 And if you just decide, oh, you're a boy, and then you bring that kid to it, and you're giving them all this positive attention, and you're giving them all this positive feedback.

01:25:51.000 And then you go to school, I'm trans now, and everyone says you're brave.

01:25:54.000 Like for awkward kids, that is absolutely enticing.

01:25:59.000 And not only that, they do it in clusters.

01:26:01.000 Like Abigail Schreier has written about this.

01:26:03.000 That this is a lot of these girls have autism, and a lot of these girls are socially awkward and they're very uncomfortable with their body and they're going through puberty, which kind of freaks them out already, freaks out any girl.

01:26:14.000 And then something comes along like this.

01:26:16.000 And now you've been taken to a doctor and had your breasts removed and you're 15.

01:26:21.000 That's fucking crazy.

01:26:23.000 And to say anything in opposition to that somehow became you're a bigot or you're a Nazi or you're transphobic.

01:26:33.000 This is crazy talk.

01:26:34.000 Like you're talking about very malleable children doing something.

01:26:38.000 You can't even get a fucking tattoo if you're 15.

01:26:41.000 Why can you get your breasts removed? 1.00

01:26:43.000 That's nuts.

01:26:44.000 Unfortunately, it became a very big business.

01:26:47.000 The number of centers in America that perform these surgeries exploded.

01:26:51.000 And so with that explosion, you need clients.

01:26:55.000 Like every business, it needs to feed that business model.

01:27:02.000 That is so evil.

01:27:04.000 It's so creepy to think that people are willing to talk people into that just for money.

01:27:11.000 But they've done it with so many other things.

01:27:15.000 It's not impossible to believe that it's true.

01:27:18.000 It's scary.

01:27:20.000 A lot of times, if you follow the money trail, you can see how things develop and where they go.

01:27:25.000 It often helps, you know, puts in perspective.

01:27:28.000 And look, rare is the person that says, I'm evil, I'm bad.

01:27:32.000 I mean, people find a way to justify things.

01:27:34.000 They find a way to excuse them and, you know, find, you know, the, well, I'm doing more good than bad, justification in their minds.

01:27:43.000 Or there's the diffusion of responsibility that comes with being a part of a corporation that's doing something.

01:27:47.000 Hey, look, I'm just an accountant, or hey, I'm just an engineer.

01:27:51.000 Or, hey, you know, I'm doing, I'm not, I don't want the company to move in this direction.

01:27:54.000 However, I do own stock.

01:27:55.000 So as it goes up.

01:27:58.000 Especially in publicly traded companies, which brings us back to the very beginning of this.

01:28:01.000 Right.

01:28:02.000 Which is, you know, that is what happens in those corporations.

01:28:05.000 Should that be a thing?

01:28:07.000 Like if you could redo the, if you had a magic wand and you could completely redo the economy, would you have the stock market?

01:28:15.000 I mean, isn't it enough that people just buy things, sell things, your company's worth money because it makes money?

01:28:22.000 Isn't that enough?

01:28:24.000 Why do we have to complicate it?

01:28:26.000 Why do we have a stock market?

01:28:28.000 I don't know if the stock market itself is the problem.

01:28:30.000 I mean, stocks, the whole idea is just to find a more efficient way for me to sell you shares in my company.

01:28:40.000 That's all it is.

01:28:41.000 But the underlying problem is not the market, in my view.

01:28:45.000 It's not the existence of the stock market.

01:28:46.000 It's the government intervening into the market forces in a way that do not result in a good outcome.

01:28:58.000 And often that is at the behest of industry.

01:29:00.000 When government, there needs to be some government regulation.

01:29:03.000 The problem is that corporations have money.

01:29:03.000 So that's the problem.

01:29:06.000 They can use that money to influence laws, influence government.

01:29:12.000 That is a significant part of the problem because, look, most regulatory agencies are born out of some crisis, right?

01:29:20.000 Right.

01:29:20.000 So they often start as a great idea, like people wanting to do good, members of our Congress wanting to do good.

01:29:26.000 But then who's got the time, money, and inclination to influence that regulatory agency?

01:29:31.000 You?

01:29:32.000 No.

01:29:32.000 Well, you do have some money, but you, me?

01:29:35.000 Who?

01:29:36.000 No, it's going to be, even with, even wealthy folks don't have it.

01:29:42.000 They're not going to do it.

01:29:44.000 It's not even the lobbyists per se.

01:29:46.000 It's the very industry they're trying to regulate.

01:29:50.000 They have the money, time, patience, inclination to do that, to create the revolving door, right?

01:29:56.000 Think about it like this.

01:29:57.000 Article 1 of the Constitution creates Congress, right?

01:30:01.000 First article.

01:30:02.000 And what's its purpose?

01:30:03.000 Primary purpose is to pass laws, right?

01:30:06.000 How many laws a year does it pass, you think, approximately?

01:30:10.000 About 200, okay?

01:30:12.000 Our agencies on the federal government, do you know how many regulations which have the same exact weight as law they pass every year?

01:30:19.000 Can I guess?

01:30:20.000 Yeah.

01:30:21.000 2,000.

01:30:22.000 It depends on the year, but often more.

01:30:24.000 Really?

01:30:25.000 Yes.

01:30:26.000 There's a chart on this that I'm sure it can be pulled up.

01:30:30.000 But it's something to that effect.

01:30:31.000 Depends on the year, but somewhere between, let's say, 100, 300 to thousands on the other side.

01:30:36.000 And who are those folks passing?

01:30:38.000 Are they part of the Article I, the Constitutional Branch supposed to pass laws that are elected representatives?

01:30:43.000 No.

01:30:44.000 The unelected bureaucrats sitting there and you name your alphabet agency that you've probably never heard of that pass these regs that are the same force of law. 0.93

01:30:55.000 And who really has, again, the time and inclination to influence them?

01:31:00.000 It's often the very industry.

01:31:02.000 So it starts as a good idea, but unfortunately it ends up being what the literature calls, this is the political science literature, came out of Harvard and Yale and all those places.

01:31:14.000 They don't want to talk about it today, captive agencies.

01:31:18.000 Okay, that's what they often become.

01:31:21.000 CDC, FDA, and very much are, to varying degrees, depending on what they're doing, are very much captive agencies when you look closely at it and you understand it.

01:31:32.000 That's true of many other parts of the government.

01:31:35.000 And so.

01:31:36.000 Well, particularly, people don't know, a lot of people don't know, haven't gone down these rabbit holes, that a lot of these people, it's a revolving door.

01:31:45.000 They leave the FDA and then they go and work for the pharmaceutical drug companies and they make a lot of money.

01:31:50.000 Yes.

01:31:52.000 Like Julie Gerberding, who was the head of the CDC in the 90s, that oversaw some of the most controversial disputes about what, whose products, Merck's vaccine products.

01:32:04.000 Okay.

01:32:05.000 And then after her, you know, she cleaned all that up, left CDC and went to work for who?

01:32:12.000 Merck.

01:32:13.000 Making tens of millions of dollars, I believe she's made over the time that she's been there. 0.70

01:32:18.000 So she did good.

01:32:20.000 She got rewarded.

01:32:21.000 You think if she didn't do good, she wouldn't get rewarded? 0.96

01:32:24.000 You don't think other people see that in the federal health?

01:32:26.000 They all know.

01:32:26.000 Of course they know.

01:32:27.000 Of course.

01:32:28.000 So it's the golden parachute, and everybody strives for it.

01:32:30.000 If you can get that post, you can get the top of the food chain over at the CDC, guys.

01:32:36.000 See in about five years.

01:32:38.000 The next five years, you're thinking about your Lamborghini, you've got a yacht in your future.

01:32:44.000 It's just, it's kooky.

01:32:45.000 Yeah.

01:32:46.000 It's kooky that it's legal.

01:32:47.000 Look, I don't know if it's as nefarious as that in the minds of people in public health.

01:32:52.000 Let's put that way, since we're talking on public health officials.

01:32:55.000 But I think that it has a corrupting influence that cannot be detangled from the fact that they're human.

01:33:04.000 It will influence them.

01:33:06.000 There's also a precedent.

01:33:06.000 I don't think it's...

01:33:08.000 There's a precedent that's been set with many people before them.

01:33:10.000 So it's something they look forward to.

01:33:12.000 If you get this job, you will likely get a job like this afterwards.

01:33:17.000 A bunch of people have.

01:33:18.000 And so you think about that while you're trying to get that job.

01:33:21.000 It's part of the motivation is financial reward.

01:33:23.000 Absolutely.

01:33:24.000 Well, there's a Pfizer executive who was serendipitously recorded specifically saying that.

01:33:33.000 I have the exchange in my book.

01:33:34.000 It's something to the effect of, well, you know, those who are working at the FDA, you know, they're eventually going to come work for industry.

01:33:43.000 So they don't want to, you know, hurt industry too much.

01:33:47.000 And the person asking the question says, well, you think that's bad?

01:33:50.000 He goes, yeah, it's bad for America, you know, but not bad for the companies.

01:33:55.000 That's the problem.

01:33:56.000 That's exactly right.

01:33:57.000 Well, this is the thing about having an obligation to your shareholders, which brings me back to the whole stock market thing.

01:34:02.000 I know this is a kooky thought, but I mean, if we never had the stock market in the first place and you didn't have an obligation to your shareholders to consistently make more money every quarter, if people could just accept the fact that you own this business, this person, you make a certain amount of money, everybody's doing great.

01:34:18.000 Like, why have all these people making money just moving stocks around insane amounts of wealth, manipulating systems to crash stocks?

01:34:28.000 And there's people that are like in public office that say things that aren't necessarily true, that influence the market.

01:34:36.000 And then it turns out they were totally wrong.

01:34:38.000 And then you find out that they bet on it and they made a bunch of money in the stock market.

01:34:42.000 This is crazy.

01:34:43.000 This is crazy.

01:34:44.000 And it's all true.

01:34:45.000 It's all legal, which is so fucking bizarre that in a time where we are completely aware that all this stuff is taking place.

01:34:57.000 Can I put that into three different buckets?

01:34:57.000 All right.

01:34:58.000 Yeah, please.

01:34:59.000 I'm going to put it in three different buckets.

01:35:00.000 There's the bucket of making products.

01:35:02.000 There are companies that make products.

01:35:02.000 Right.

01:35:03.000 There are companies that provide services, including financial services that can be useful.

01:35:06.000 Like you need a mortgage if you can buy a house.

01:35:09.000 You can't afford it.

01:35:09.000 So mortgage products are a service that are brought to the financial industry.

01:35:12.000 And then there is, I think, what you're talking about, which is the part of our economy that is finance.

01:35:18.000 It's just moving money.

01:35:20.000 It's just moving numbers where they've got high-speed computers that are trying in micro fractions of a second to beat out the other guy to basically triage and make money based on that adds no value to our economy.

01:35:34.000 Products and services add value.

01:35:37.000 And everything you see around that we're sitting in right now is made by a company, right?

01:35:43.000 And so, and I'm not aware of a system that has been more efficient at producing products and services that improve the lives of others than the free market system with some regulation.

01:36:01.000 I'm not aware of one.

01:36:02.000 Socialism doesn't do it.

01:36:03.000 We've seen that in action.

01:36:05.000 Communism does not do it.

01:36:06.000 We've seen that in action.

01:36:07.000 We just do it right.

01:36:08.000 Dictators, but clearly.

01:36:12.000 So I wouldn't throw out the whole system is what I'm saying.

01:36:15.000 What I'm saying is that— I'm not saying that.

01:36:16.000 Yeah.

01:36:16.000 Yeah, I'm saying that that part of it's good.

01:36:18.000 Now, when you break the alignment of economic self-interests of the companies, the market interest, to whatever it is, protect consumers, that's when you have a problem.

01:36:32.000 And that is the idea, or at least they sell it as the idea from a lot of government regulations.

01:36:39.000 Well, the company is not on its own going to do what's right in this instance.

01:36:47.000 So we need government to do it.

01:36:49.000 And if government really only stepped in when it was truly needed, it would be a good system.

01:36:55.000 You're right.

01:36:56.000 But the system often breaks when they step in when they're not needed, and sometimes when they step in and have the opposite effect, when they're really just protecting the industry at the expense of consumers, which happens too often.

01:37:11.000 Is the benefit of the stock market, and this is again nonsense, right?

01:37:16.000 I'm not an economist, clearly.

01:37:17.000 But if we had never invented it, if human beings had never come up with this idea, if instead we just had a free market, what has the stock market, what has publicly traded companies, what has the ability to own stock companies and hedge funds and all that stuff, what has that done for innovation and for progress and for creating more products?

01:37:40.000 Do you think it's encouraged more products and encouraged more activity in the economy and we're further ahead than we would have been if no one had invented it?

01:37:49.000 Because it seems like at the very least, it's a weird opening for people that just move money around and add no value and extract enormous amounts of wealth.

01:38:02.000 So that seems like you got a hole in your pipe.

01:38:04.000 Like, why are people that aren't even involved?

01:38:07.000 Why do they get to make all the money on this? 0.93

01:38:09.000 Like, what is going on here?

01:38:10.000 You're doing a weird thing that I don't know if you had to do to achieve the same result that you achieved with a free market, capitalist society that doesn't have a stock market, that just has a bunch of companies making money and everybody doing the stuff they do.

01:38:24.000 It's like, is it a necessity is what I'm asking.

01:38:30.000 Well, outside of my expertise, but definitely outside of mine.

01:38:35.000 I mean, I'll give you my musings.

01:38:37.000 Yes, please.

01:38:38.000 This is just my off-the-cuff musings, and that's something I actually really want to think about more.

01:38:42.000 But so when I think about companies going public, it certainly appears to help drive capital to those companies because venture capital funds, a lot of times they're exit strategy.

01:39:01.000 So I'm willing to give you all this.

01:39:04.000 I'm a venture capital.

01:39:05.000 I'm willing to give you all this money to start this company because I know at the, you know, my goal is three to five years from now, it can go public and I, the venture capital fund, can get back X amount of my money.

01:39:20.000 That's my, that's the exit strategy for that investment.

01:39:24.000 Now, if there was no efficient market to do that, right?

01:39:29.000 Meaning you couldn't just have a publicly traded market where just easy to sell to have this public offering.

01:39:38.000 What would that do to venture capital funds?

01:39:41.000 Well, I mean, would they still invest as much?

01:39:44.000 They might.

01:39:44.000 And instead, they might just focus on hard money returns.

01:39:48.000 They want companies that really just make money, you know, cash on cash versus this immediate bubble of equity inflation that happens when you go public because it's now liquid, the ownership.

01:40:02.000 Right.

01:40:03.000 Market caps.

01:40:04.000 I don't know if that answers your question, but that's like, well, I don't think it does because, you know, your question was a good one.

01:40:10.000 It's far more sophisticated than what I'd answered because you're saying, what does it contribute to society?

01:40:18.000 Right, I don't think it contributes anything.

01:40:20.000 I just answered it so narrowly and said, well, it might add some, it might entice venture capitalists.

01:40:25.000 I don't know if, I don't even know if what I just said is entirely correct.

01:40:28.000 Like, they might still do it anyway because they'll just might do the best thing.

01:40:31.000 Now, what does it add to society?

01:40:33.000 All of it would have liquid.

01:40:34.000 I mean, it'd be harder to have like a retirement account in the way you have right now to own stock.

01:40:41.000 That would be more difficult to put your money in and buy shares of Coca-Cola.

01:40:45.000 Would you prefer for big corporations to be owned by certain families or would you rather them be owned by the public?

01:40:54.000 I think you should be allowed to keep your company in your family if you own it.

01:40:59.000 Well, you should be.

01:41:01.000 You certainly can look at this.

01:41:02.000 Look at the New York Times.

01:41:03.000 The New York Times, the family kept control.

01:41:06.000 If I, in my understanding, again, we're outside of my normal area of expertise.

01:41:09.000 But the family, my understanding, has the controlling of votes in that company, but it's publicly traded as well, New York Times.

01:41:16.000 Yeah.

01:41:17.000 If I'm not mistaken.

01:41:19.000 I know people that have taken their company public and regretted it.

01:41:22.000 Like, it's too much shit.

01:41:24.000 You deal with too much nonsense afterwards.

01:41:26.000 And then they're like, it wasn't worth it.

01:41:28.000 Just for the hassle and the quality of life, I would have never done it if I had known this.

01:41:33.000 I guess it depends what they want.

01:41:34.000 I guess it depends what they wanted.

01:41:36.000 But the question is, if a bunch of people are making money that aren't contributing, they're just siphoning money by moving money around all over the place.

01:41:44.000 Isn't that leaky money?

01:41:46.000 If you don't really contribute anything, you don't provide any value, and you're extracting extreme wealth.

01:41:51.000 Don't you have a leak in the pipe?

01:41:53.000 It seems like if that money was just being distributed normally, like the buying and selling of goods and services, that would be a much more honest society.

01:42:03.000 But would it have the same amount of in would it have the same amount of innovation and would it have the same amount of productivity?

01:42:12.000 Or is that productivity not just enhanced by this flood of capital, but also encouraged?

01:42:18.000 So it like stimulates everything.

01:42:21.000 So like having these vampires sucking on the pipe, like ultimately it does move numbers around and it gets more stuff out there, which also encourages innovation.

01:42:33.000 I don't know.

01:42:34.000 I mean, I think that there is a gray, all right.

01:42:37.000 I think there's a gray area between the second and third buckets.

01:42:40.000 So we were probably like products and services.

01:42:43.000 Maybe we'll make that one bucket because those can have value to society from many of them.

01:42:48.000 And then they're at the extreme, there's like just like triage nonsense that happens.

01:42:53.000 You know, I put my supercomputer as close as possible to the stock exchange.

01:43:00.000 And so I can like make money on fractions of a fraction.

01:43:03.000 Yeah, that's like the, and then there's something, then there's like that gray zone in between where there's, you know, mortgage is good.

01:43:12.000 Right.

01:43:12.000 Okay.

01:43:13.000 Help the American family achieve their dream of owning a home.

01:43:17.000 Now, mortgage-backed securities, maybe not so good.

01:43:22.000 Mortgage-backed securities that are double, triple sliced into all these tranches, getting worse, going down that road.

01:43:28.000 Like there's a degree where you're getting further and further away from the very point of that financial instrument that had goods.

01:43:35.000 So I think that there's a point at which, yeah, no good.

01:43:42.000 But I think it's hard to talk in generalities in my mind.

01:43:44.000 Like if you have a specific example, let's go down that road.

01:43:46.000 Well, Bernie Madoff's the best example.

01:43:49.000 Right?

01:43:50.000 But obviously, everybody had to know something was, there was some shenanigans taking place because the returns were too crazy.

01:43:56.000 But look at how many intelligent people invested money with him because he was so successful.

01:44:03.000 My old office in Manhattan, when I used to work at Latham Watkins, was I think three floors above Bernie's office in the lipstick building.

01:44:10.000 It was on the 23rd.

01:44:11.000 I think it was the 20.

01:44:12.000 Nothing to do with him.

01:44:13.000 Anyways, zero.

01:44:16.000 Okay, but Bernie, Bernie just straight up stole. 0.74

01:44:20.000 Just stole.

01:44:21.000 I mean, that's not even a thing.

01:44:23.000 No, no, no, you're right.

01:44:23.000 He just.

01:44:23.000 Come on.

01:44:25.000 He just stole money and gave out fake returns, as far as I know.

01:44:30.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:44:31.000 He had people thinking that they were making all this money.

01:44:34.000 Yeah, he's just a pyramid scheme, basically.

01:44:37.000 100%.

01:44:38.000 That was eventually going to fail.

01:44:39.000 I mean, I don't think he's going for so long.

01:44:41.000 Well, I think it fucked up because of the 2008 crisis, right?

01:44:45.000 They think he could have kept it going if there wasn't the crash.

01:44:48.000 Wasn't that what did him in?

01:44:49.000 There's always going to be a dip.

01:44:50.000 So it was only a matter of time.

01:44:52.000 I mean, he was going to get it.

01:44:53.000 It was a big one, though, and people wanted their money back.

01:44:55.000 And he was like, yikes.

01:44:57.000 I mean, that's an incredible.

01:44:59.000 It's an incredible scheme.

01:45:01.000 It's amazing that somebody should even pull that off, frankly.

01:45:04.000 It is crazy.

01:45:04.000 And it is incredible.

01:45:05.000 But it just shows you that this is a weird system that you can pretend to be moving money around and you don't have any products.

01:45:12.000 But it corrected.

01:45:13.000 It did.

01:45:14.000 It's a good point because he did go to jail.

01:45:16.000 He went to jail.

01:45:16.000 He corrected.

01:45:17.000 And man, did he become the post-trial of like fraud?

01:45:20.000 Don't do that.

01:45:21.000 Don't do that.

01:45:22.000 He became don't do that.

01:45:23.000 Yeah.

01:45:24.000 It's just, it's probably a stupid question because I don't know anything about economics.

01:45:29.000 But I was just thinking that, like, couldn't we have the same world and not have that?

01:45:35.000 And wouldn't that be more honest and more beneficial?

01:45:38.000 But it would have to have happened from the beginning.

01:45:41.000 It would have to be like there was never publicly traded companies from the beginning.

01:45:45.000 All right, let's think of a company you like.

01:45:48.000 Coca-Cola.

01:45:49.000 You like Coca-Cola?

01:45:50.000 I like a little Diet Coke every now and then when I want some brain fog.

01:45:53.000 All right.

01:45:55.000 I don't want a nice taste in my mouth and an aspartame hangover.

01:45:59.000 Okay, I'll think of another one.

01:46:01.000 I don't know.

01:46:02.000 Chevy.

01:46:03.000 Okay, Chevy.

01:46:04.000 So I don't know.

01:46:07.000 Without the ability to raise money in liquid capital markets, would Chevy have grown to what Chevy became?

01:46:14.000 Or at least in the speed at which it did that then revolutionized automotive in other industries?

01:46:21.000 Probably not.

01:46:22.000 Maybe not.

01:46:22.000 Yeah, maybe not.

01:46:23.000 Maybe not.

01:46:24.000 But you wonder, like if people were motivated and people were ambitious, and we always have been, you know, like if that wasn't a part of our economy.

01:46:32.000 Yeah.

01:46:32.000 I wonder.

01:46:34.000 I bet it has a pretty big impact when you put it that way.

01:46:36.000 You think about something as big as Chevy.

01:46:38.000 You know?

01:46:41.000 But it's just the motivation of money is always going to be there.

01:46:47.000 And if people ignore it because it's inconvenient and it doesn't align with their ideology, you've been captured.

01:46:55.000 And this is why I think what you're talking about all the time is so hard for people that are true believers to swallow.

01:47:03.000 Because it makes you have, you're forced to reformulate your entire worldview.

01:47:08.000 If you've been duped that hard by something like the actual data on vaccine efficacy and who's really profiting and why it's set up the way it is and what the studies really are, when you realize you've been duped that hard, that's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.

01:47:25.000 Absolutely.

01:47:26.000 But I will say this.

01:47:28.000 You don't need to go down a rabbit hole, okay?

01:47:30.000 Because that happens to a lot of people with vaccines.

01:47:32.000 I've seen not the majority, not most, but it happens to some where it's like, oh my goodness, if the government's lying or not telling me the truth about these products, then what can I believe?

01:47:46.000 And, you know, people, some folks can go down some different alleys.

01:47:51.000 And I would say that I would really, truly, I've not seen anything like vaccines.

01:47:57.000 Vaccines really are in their own bucket because of that immunity.

01:48:00.000 It's what I call original sin in my book.

01:48:02.000 There really is no product, no product that I'm aware of that operates in this kind of landscape.

01:48:10.000 Like I said, every other product, the market force will, to varying degrees with wrinkles, correct for the issues because there's economic self-interest.

01:48:20.000 They broke that with vaccines.

01:48:22.000 So we've gone from three shots following in 1986, one before the first year of age.

01:48:29.000 At the beginning of 2025, you know how many shots it was that a baby got on or before their first birthday?

01:48:35.000 Take a guess.

01:48:36.000 No, no, that's their whole childhood.

01:48:36.000 72.

01:48:38.000 29.

01:48:39.000 29 by the first birthday?

01:48:41.000 Yes, on or before the first birthday.

01:48:42.000 It went from three to 29 shots, including in utero.

01:48:46.000 Now, with the recent changes, it's down to 19.

01:48:49.000 And the reason I focus on the first year, most of the shots in the first six months of life, is that's when the baby is going through really critical stages of neurological, immunological development, right?

01:49:01.000 Synapse.

01:49:02.000 I mean, think how small a baby is, okay?

01:49:04.000 And so they're really susceptible to various effects.

01:49:08.000 Also, babies can't express what's going wrong with them.

01:49:11.000 Okay.

01:49:12.000 So now, in the normal course, okay, in the normal course, you've got a product.

01:49:18.000 You've gone from three of them in 1986 by the first year.

01:49:23.000 You're up to 29 at the beginning of 2025.

01:49:26.000 Now you're at 19 still.

01:49:28.000 During that period, you've gone from under 10% of kids had a chronic health issue in the early 1980s, according to the data.

01:49:35.000 You now have over 40%.

01:49:37.000 Some data show over 50% of kids having chronic health issues, often multiple times the rate.

01:49:43.000 And what are those chronic health issues that have exploded?

01:49:45.000 To be sure, by the way, any environmental insult can cause dysregulation in the body, including a pharmaceutical product, including vaccines.

01:49:55.000 But when you look at those chronic diseases that have exploded, almost all of them have an etiology relating to some form of immune system dysregulation.

01:50:06.000 Look at asthma.

01:50:07.000 Look at atopic issues.

01:50:08.000 Look at ticks.

01:50:09.000 Look at ADHD.

01:50:11.000 Nobody thinks about it this way, but if you look at the public literature, there's immune markers that have gone awry in kids with ADHD.

01:50:19.000 So you look at that.

01:50:20.000 Now, I'd say, okay, the lawyers, those who would hold these companies accountable, would look at that, and then they would start looking at the data.

01:50:28.000 And I'll show you what some of the data shows.

01:50:31.000 We talked about the Amish earlier, for example.

01:50:34.000 The Amish that I represent in New York, there's three schools.

01:50:38.000 The New York Health Department decided that it doesn't like what the Amish beliefs are.

01:50:43.000 It wants the Amish to adopt their beliefs and abandon their real religious beliefs and to give their kids these vaccines. 0.99

01:50:50.000 Otherwise, they were going to impose crushing fines on these three Amish schools.

01:50:54.000 Three schools, by the way, which means a room, no electricity, a teacher, you know what I mean?

01:51:00.000 On Amish land. 0.93

01:51:01.000 They don't take tax money.

01:51:02.000 They pay taxes, but they refuse to take tax money, taught by Amish teachers. 1.00

01:51:07.000 And so amongst those families of those three schools, there was like 160 or something kids.

01:51:15.000 And what we did is we did a survey.

01:51:17.000 We asked them, what health conditions do those kids have, those 160 kids, many of them are already older, too.

01:51:23.000 So you would know their health outcomes.

01:51:25.000 And this is all in our court papers.

01:51:27.000 It's all in a federal docket.

01:51:28.000 Anybody can go and read it for themselves.

01:51:30.000 Amongst those children, you would expect to have, because like one in 10 kids approximately have asthma, you would expect to have like nine cases of asthma.

01:51:38.000 You'd expect to have six cases this five kids.

01:51:41.000 They have none, zero of the chronic health conditions plaguing kids in America today.

01:51:49.000 And the approximately 10 or so studies that have been done, and I'm going to bring this back to my legal point, the approximately 10 or so studies that have done that compared kids with no exposure, meaning zero vaccines, to kids that have had one or more vaccines, show the same outcome.

01:52:05.000 Kids with zero vaccines, almost none of the chronic health issues that face kids today in America.

01:52:11.000 Kids with one or more vaccines, multiple rates of the chronic health issues facing kids today.

01:52:17.000 Now, that data all exists.

01:52:20.000 I put those studies in my book.

01:52:21.000 Anybody can read them.

01:52:22.000 I even put the Amish information in my book.

01:52:23.000 It's all cited.

01:52:24.000 You can go look at it yourself if you're out there.

01:52:25.000 Some of them are even on PubMed.

01:52:27.000 The market could have corrected for that if you could hold those pharma companies accountable, but you can't.

01:52:35.000 Is it correct that the only instances of autism they found in Amish kids were adopted kids?

01:52:43.000 There are data and some reports that reflect that.

01:52:49.000 But if we so there are that, but those are more news reports.

01:52:54.000 Those are not, somebody will criticize you, by the way.

01:52:56.000 You're going to get criticism and say, well, that's not a peer-reviewed study.

01:52:59.000 Well, I had a follow-up question, so maybe clarify.

01:53:01.000 Yeah.

01:53:02.000 Well, and so we can move on to what does the peer-reviewed literature show, if you want.

01:53:09.000 But the follow-up question would be, are they even being diagnosed?

01:53:12.000 So if they're getting Amish care and Amish teachers and Amish, is it possible that there are some kids that are just behaving odd that would be diagnosed?

01:53:23.000 Like this is the criticism.

01:53:24.000 Yes.

01:53:25.000 People say, like, this is when you hear some mainstream suit talking on television, well, there was always someone odd when we were kids.

01:53:32.000 You know, there's no, they just, the diagnosis is different today.

01:53:36.000 That's why it's one in 12 boys in California.

01:53:38.000 They're overdiagnosing.

01:53:39.000 And I'm like, no, no, I have friends that have, I have multiple friends that have nonverbal children.

01:53:45.000 I never had that when I was a kid.

01:53:47.000 That was not normal.

01:53:49.000 That was not a common thing.

01:53:50.000 It was very, very, very rare.

01:53:52.000 The notion that autism is just better diagnosed, and that's the only reason for the increase is, I don't know a better word for it than say nonsense.

01:54:03.000 Okay.

01:54:05.000 Even if you look at the, because they've changed the DSM-5, which is what we're up to, the diagnostic manual, that is the psychiatric manual that has the criteria for diagnosing autism.

01:54:18.000 It has changed over time.

01:54:19.000 But when you even just look at severe autism, just severe autism, which California has very good data on, from the 70s and onward into today, it's exploded.

01:54:30.000 So the notion that we just have better diagnosis is not a serious point.

01:54:35.000 But putting that aside, the Amish do go to doctors.

01:54:38.000 Do they go to Amish doctors?

01:54:40.000 They go to regular doctors.

01:54:40.000 Okay.

01:54:40.000 No.

01:54:41.000 The Amish, the Amish, for example, could even go in a car.

01:54:45.000 They just can't drive a car.

01:54:47.000 So they can get an Uber.

01:54:48.000 There's different, somebody orders it.

01:54:50.000 I should be clear about that.

01:54:52.000 Just like every religion, there are different communities.

01:54:57.000 And so there's like old, old line Amish, and then there's old line Amish.

01:55:02.000 And so, you know, in Christianity and Islam and Judaism, there's different degrees.

01:55:09.000 Black hat Jews and there's so forth. 0.88

01:55:11.000 So in many respects, they do still go.

01:55:17.000 But, you know, as I was told by one of the main folks who I interact with there, and I've been up there and I've slept there and I've interacted with them.

01:55:26.000 He told me, he said, yeah, you know, there are a few that mistake, got some vaccines.

01:55:30.000 And he goes, one of those kids, they just don't act right.

01:55:33.000 He said it to me.

01:55:34.000 But we don't see that with our other kids.

01:55:35.000 And I'll tell you this about the Amish community.

01:55:38.000 They don't have phones.

01:55:41.000 Not, you know, smartphones.

01:55:45.000 They have old school phones, some of them.

01:55:47.000 They don't have TVs.

01:55:49.000 When they're with their kids, they're with their kids.

01:55:53.000 When they're there at the end of the day, they really are so much more in tune.

01:55:57.000 When I spend time with them and when I went up there, I mean, it's incredible.

01:56:01.000 You know, we have lost, it's a hard thing to experience.

01:56:05.000 Maybe for somebody who keeps like maybe the closest thing I think of is like those who observe the Sabbath biblically, you know, so they're just totally locked in.

01:56:14.000 They lock in with their families for a day or so or things like that.

01:56:17.000 And so they're very in tune with their kids.

01:56:19.000 They know if those kids have health issues.

01:56:21.000 And those kids don't have those issues.

01:56:23.000 But forget the Amish. 1.00

01:56:25.000 Go to the rest of the kids in the other studies that are not Amish studies.

01:56:29.000 The 10 other studies that I just told you about, one is three pediatric practices that have vaccinated, unvaccinated kids.

01:56:35.000 There are a whole line of studies that have nothing to do with the Amish community.

01:56:39.000 But if you do want to focus on autism, okay, which is just one potential issue from vaccines, by the way, what you find in the peer-reviewed literature is that 40 to 70% of parents who have a child with autism report, still report, that they believe vaccines cause their child's autism.

01:57:03.000 Okay?

01:57:03.000 40 to 7%.

01:57:05.000 That's after how much billions of dollars to try to tell them and gaslight them and convince them that it's not autism, that vaccines don't cause autism.

01:57:14.000 Apparently, no matter how many you beat these families, they're just not going to change their lived experience.

01:57:20.000 And what vaccines do they point to?

01:57:23.000 They often point to the vaccines given in the first six months of life.

01:57:26.000 When you ask them, what vaccines do you think cause your child's autism?

01:57:30.000 They'll say the vaccines given in the first six months of life.

01:57:32.000 And then they'll also point to MMR vaccine, which is given no earlier than one year of age.

01:57:37.000 Okay.

01:57:39.000 And so on behalf of ICANN, which is the Information Action Working nonprofit that our law often represents, we sent a Freedom of Information Act request, FOIA request, to the CDC.

01:57:51.000 And we said, hey, your website says vaccines do not cause autism.

01:57:55.000 Great.

01:57:56.000 Please give us the studies that show that HEP B vaccine, given three times in the first six months of life, do not cause autism.

01:58:03.000 Please give us the studies that show that DTAP vaccine, given three times in the first six months of life, do not cause autism.

01:58:10.000 Same thing for IPV vaccine, for PCV vaccine, and for HIP vaccine.

01:58:20.000 Each one of those vaccines is given three times each in the first six months of life.

01:58:24.000 15 injections.

01:58:26.000 Okay?

01:58:27.000 Okay.

01:58:29.000 You say vaccines don't cause autism.

01:58:31.000 These parents are saying these vaccines cause their child's autism.

01:58:36.000 Provide us the studies.

01:58:38.000 They never gave us the studies.

01:58:40.000 I sued them in federal court.

01:58:41.000 I didn't go to Texas.

01:58:42.000 I sued them in the Southern District of New York.

01:58:44.000 Not the friendliest territory to bring that kind of lawsuit.

01:58:49.000 Days before the hearing, I get a list of 20 studies finally from the DOJ because they represent the CDC.

01:58:59.000 Maybe they think I don't read.

01:59:01.000 So I looked at the 20 studies.

01:59:03.000 I read them.

01:59:04.000 19 of them have nothing to do with the vaccines given in the first six months of life.

01:59:10.000 They were all either MMR studies or studies of an ingredient that wasn't in those vaccines.

01:59:15.000 One of them was an Institute of Medicine review from 2012 that canvassed all the literature on whether DTAP vaccine does or does not cause autism because the CDC and HRSA, which is the agency in HHS that fights vaccine injury claims, asked the IOM to look at whether DTAP causes autism because it remained one of the most commonly claimed injuries still, according to them.

01:59:43.000 And the Institute of Medicine came back and said we could only find one study on DTAP and autism.

01:59:48.000 And in fact, it showed an association between vaccine, DTAP vaccine and autism.

01:59:53.000 But the IOM threw it out because they said there's no unvaccinated control in it.

01:59:56.000 So they threw out the studies based on VARES data, if you know what that is.

02:00:00.000 So I called up the DOJ attorney.

02:00:03.000 This is days before the hearing.

02:00:05.000 And I said, I got the list of 20 studies.

02:00:11.000 I said, are you sure that your client, the CDC, wants to settle this case basically on the basis that these are the studies they rely upon to claim that vaccines don't cause autism?

02:00:23.000 That the vaccines in the first six months of life do not cause autism.

02:00:27.000 Because that's what the lawsuit was about, that FOIA request.

02:00:30.000 He went, he called me back, and he said, yeah, they want to settle it.

02:00:32.000 I said, all right, I gave him another chance.

02:00:36.000 Those 20 studies were put into a settlement agreement between the CDC and ICANN, my client.

02:00:42.000 The DOJ signed it on behalf of the CDC.

02:00:44.000 I signed it on behalf of my client.

02:00:45.000 And the federal judge in the Southern District of New York entered it as an order of the court in 2019, I believe it was.

02:00:52.000 And there it was.

02:00:53.000 I mean, I had done years and years of work fighting with them to try and figure out, show me the vaccines don't cause autism.

02:00:59.000 This was the crescendo.

02:01:01.000 This was the end.

02:01:01.000 I mean, when their back was to the wall, they had nothing.

02:01:06.000 There are no studies.

02:01:09.000 They could not produce one that showed the vaccines given in the first six months of life do not cause autism.

02:01:14.000 And here's the thing they left out.

02:01:17.000 There is one study out there regarding Hep B vaccines and autism.

02:01:20.000 It's from Gallagher and Goodman out of the University of Stony Brooks in the peer-reviewed literature.

02:01:24.000 And it showed that kids that got Hep B vaccine versus those that did in the first month of life had three times the rate of autism, statistically significant.

02:01:32.000 Gallagher Goodman, University of Stony Brook, it's on PubMed.

02:01:35.000 That is the only study of Hep B vaccine autism you will find in the peer-reviewed literature.

02:01:39.000 If you're going to do it based on the science, on the published literature, that's the only one out there.

02:01:43.000 That DTAP vaccine study is the only one out there for DTAP given in the first six months of life.

02:01:48.000 So when this narrative, which you hear all the time on these panels, on these news shows, vaccines do not cause autism, that has been thoroughly debunked.

02:02:00.000 Where's that come from?

02:02:02.000 Vaccines, Amen.

02:02:04.000 That's why I call my book, That Seen's Amen.

02:02:07.000 Have you seen those live shows where crowds cheers?

02:02:09.000 But this is what I'm talking about.

02:02:10.000 This is why I wrote the book.

02:02:12.000 I wrote the book because in 10 years that I have litigated hundred, 200 lawsuits against federal and state health agencies, that I have deposed the world's leading vaccinologists, including Dr. Stanley Plotkin.

02:02:26.000 You go down the list and chasing them when they're in a deposition, when their back is against the wall in a federal or state lawsuit, and they have no choice but to admit the truth or give the evidence, put up or shut up.

02:02:41.000 What I have found is that the claims they make about vaccines versus the reality are completely different.

02:02:48.000 And it is disjarring.

02:02:49.000 When I came into this, had you told me, yeah, they don't have any studies that show vaccines don't cause autism in the first six months, I'd be like, you're crazy.

02:02:59.000 Get out of here.

02:02:59.000 They tell you it's thoroughly debunked.

02:03:02.000 Thoroughly studied.

02:03:03.000 The most studied thing ever.

02:03:04.000 They have a mountain of science.

02:03:05.000 Joe, there's a mountain of studies.

02:03:07.000 You know how big it is?

02:03:08.000 It's so big.

02:03:09.000 And you know what's on top of that mountain?

02:03:10.000 Another mountain of studies.

02:03:11.000 You know how another mountain.

02:03:13.000 There's so many studies.

02:03:14.000 They're drowning in studies that vaccines don't cause autism.

02:03:18.000 But then when you demand it, not the bull crap that they say on TV, but you actually demand it.

02:03:25.000 That's the result.

02:03:26.000 And you could pull it up on the internet, by the way.

02:03:31.000 That court stipulation, it's right there.

02:03:32.000 You could also hear me depose Dr. Stanley Plock and the world's leading vaccinologist.

02:03:36.000 What I said to him, I said, Doctor, you know, and you have this clip's on the internet.

02:03:41.000 I said, I said, There's no studies that support that DTAP does not cause autism, right?

02:03:46.000 And he's, and first he said, Well, I said, Well, what do you think the IM concluded?

02:03:50.000 He goes, Well, I would assume they said it doesn't.

02:03:52.000 So I showed it to him.

02:03:53.000 He goes, Oh, it's the world's leading vaccinologist.

02:03:55.000 He didn't even know this.

02:03:56.000 He goes, Oh, okay, there are no studies.

02:03:58.000 Okay, he goes, So I said, Shouldn't you wait until you do?

02:04:01.000 Shouldn't you wait until you have the studies that show that DTAP doesn't cause autism to then tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism?

02:04:09.000 You know what he said to me?

02:04:10.000 No, no, I don't wait.

02:04:13.000 I don't wait because I have to take into account the health of the child.

02:04:16.000 He said, I said, So, for that reason, you're willing to tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism, even though you don't have the data to support it.

02:04:23.000 He said, Absolutely.

02:04:24.000 You can play that clip if you want.

02:04:26.000 It's on the internet.

02:04:27.000 And then I deposed in a case about vaccines and autism.

02:04:31.000 It was about it, Dr. Catherine Edwards, who is one of the four, I guess, leading vaccinologists in the world, one of the four editors of the medical textbooks on vaccine, which is called Plotkin's Vaccines.

02:04:43.000 I deposed her about vaccines and autism.

02:04:45.000 And I said, Do you have a study that shows Hep B vaccine doesn't go to autism?

02:04:48.000 This was after this court stipulation, the court order I told you about.

02:04:52.000 She didn't have any for Hep B, for HIP, for the ones I just took the first six months of life.

02:04:58.000 So, yes, they say on TV it's thoroughly debunked, but I'm telling you, that is a belief that is not science, that is not fact, it is not based on data, it is based on pure belief.

02:05:13.000 And they say it just like they say, you know, Jesus Christ is Lord.

02:05:17.000 I think they believe actually in vaccines more because they'll kick kids out of school in some archdiocese, even in some other Christian schools, far less.

02:05:27.000 Most archdiocese won't, if the kid won't get vaccines.

02:05:30.000 So, I actually think they believe in vaccines more than Jesus in some places, by the way.

02:05:36.000 What an amazing job of gaslighting and propaganda they've done.

02:05:40.000 But I just want to, I just got to be clear because anybody here in this might think that that just sounds crazy.

02:05:46.000 But I implore anybody who heard me say that, pull up the court order yourself, look at it yourself, watch the depositions, go to PEBMed, see for yourself.

02:05:57.000 Oh, and by the way, do not rely on AI because I've done this fun job with them.

02:06:01.000 Like, I'm like, Do Hep B vaccines cause autism?

02:06:04.000 It's been thoroughly researched, and there's no studies.

02:06:06.000 I go, Okay, great.

02:06:07.000 So, how do you, and I say to AI, I go, How do you reach a scientific conclusion?

02:06:11.000 Well, you use peer-reviewed studies.

02:06:12.000 I go, wonderful.

02:06:13.000 So, to conclude that HEP vaccine does not cause autism, you need peer-reviewed studies.

02:06:16.000 That is correct.

02:06:17.000 Wonderful.

02:06:17.000 Now, please, in a list, these studies that show hep B vaccine does cause autism.

02:06:27.000 Give me three studies.

02:06:28.000 I've had...

02:06:30.000 I've had ChatGPT make up studies.

02:06:32.000 Literally, HEPI vaccine does not cause autism.

02:06:34.000 And I'm like, that doesn't exist.

02:06:35.000 Give me the PubMed number.

02:06:37.000 I aim to provide valid information, but in this instance, I fell short.

02:06:37.000 You are correct.

02:06:42.000 Literally made up a.

02:06:43.000 I made up a study.

02:06:43.000 I'm not joking.

02:06:45.000 I've had it.

02:06:45.000 I fell short.

02:06:46.000 I lied to you.

02:06:47.000 I've done this for fun with friends.

02:06:49.000 And so I'm like, watch this, watch this.

02:06:51.000 And finally, I'll get it to admit that the only study is the Gallagher and Goodman study.

02:06:55.000 That is the only study.

02:06:56.000 I will get it to admit.

02:06:57.000 It takes about often 45 minutes to an hour.

02:07:00.000 Really?

02:07:00.000 Yeah, it takes a while, but it will eventually admit it.

02:07:03.000 And they all do it.

02:07:04.000 Grok does it too, by the way.

02:07:05.000 Grok's better, by the way, better, but it's bad too.

02:07:09.000 And they will say, you know, on all of these questions, they will make stuff up.

02:07:14.000 And unless you know, like, I know the universe of studies, I know what's going on.

02:07:18.000 Let me ask you this: do you think that these large language models are programmed with certain truths that they can't fight against?

02:07:28.000 Or do you think it's because they're pulling from so much bullshit on the internet and so many bullshit narratives on the internet from trusted sources that'll tell you that vaccines don't cause autism?

02:07:38.000 Like there's a ton of major newspapers, major magazines, there's a ton of them that have talked about how it's been thoroughly debunked.

02:07:47.000 And then they'll quote doctors and scientists that don't list any specific studies, but they'll say we've done exhaustive studies, they've been thoroughly debunked.

02:07:55.000 They'll say that, and then they'll print that.

02:07:56.000 And so is the AI just pulling from so much bullshit online that it looks through all the noise and says, like, 89% say vaccines do not cause autism, therefore it must be true.

02:08:11.000 Or is it programmed to say, hey, this is what you say?

02:08:15.000 Vaccines don't cause autism.

02:08:17.000 You must hold me in very high regard.

02:08:19.000 You've held me out as an incredibly complex economic questions and now large language model questions.

02:08:25.000 Sorry, very smart guy.

02:08:27.000 I appreciate the compliment so far on that score.

02:08:29.000 With that said, I mean, I don't know the answer, but I will speculate because I don't know the answer.

02:08:40.000 I'm going to guess, I'm really guessing that it might be a mix of some programming because Google, for example, if you go and you search for Aaron's Siri Substack, you get Paul Off at Substack.

02:09:01.000 Why?

02:09:03.000 How in the world do you get Paul off at Substack when you search for mine?

02:09:08.000 And mine's like, it's not even like on the first page.

02:09:12.000 I don't think it's on the second.

02:09:13.000 Now, maybe they fixed that.

02:09:15.000 I don't know.

02:09:16.000 So some of that.

02:09:17.000 Is that using Google?

02:09:19.000 That's using Google.

02:09:20.000 Let's look right now.

02:09:21.000 Let's go.

02:09:21.000 Last time I've done it.

02:09:22.000 Let's do it right now.

02:09:23.000 Let's do it right now.

02:09:24.000 Let's do it.

02:09:24.000 Because have you seen Robert Epstein's work?

02:09:28.000 Robert Epstein's been on my podcast a few times, unfortunately, last name.

02:09:31.000 But he has nothing to do with that.

02:09:32.000 He is a data scientist.

02:09:34.000 Well, I don't know what his original background is, but what he does is he is very vocal about how they're using these coordinated.

02:09:44.000 It's very curated search results.

02:09:47.000 And through that, especially during election times, they can take a lot of people that are undecided voters and swing them a very noticeable number.

02:09:57.000 Like, I forget what the number was, but it's a large percentage: 10%, 20%, something like that.

02:10:01.000 So, if you Google something about, say, Hillary Clinton, for instance, during that first election, you would get all these positive articles.

02:10:08.000 If you Google Trump, you would get all these negative articles.

02:10:11.000 And if you asked it certain things, it would give you things that were completely contrary to that.

02:10:17.000 So you'd look at that first.

02:10:18.000 And I think that's you and Paul Offitt.

02:10:20.000 It could be.

02:10:20.000 So it's fine.

02:10:21.000 Maybe it's fixed at this point.

02:10:23.000 How are you going to word this?

02:10:24.000 Because that just Aaron Siri substacks.

02:10:26.000 Yeah, just do Aaron Siri's substack.

02:10:28.000 Just do that on Google.

02:10:29.000 On Google, the results are.

02:10:31.000 But while he's pulling that up, I'll add that this might be some of that.

02:10:34.000 Again, I'm on speculation territory.

02:10:36.000 And then separately, so it goes right away to me.

02:10:39.000 It goes right away to me this time.

02:10:41.000 You know what it is?

02:10:42.000 They got Jamie's fucking data and they know from your metadata.

02:10:47.000 If you ask a question in a word way, it might come up differently.

02:10:50.000 It's like, what is there?

02:10:52.000 That's what I did.

02:10:53.000 Try Aaron Siri injecting freedom substack.

02:10:56.000 See what happens.

02:10:58.000 That could be the way we search for it.

02:11:01.000 See, that shows up differently.

02:11:03.000 Well, I'm telling you, when you add words, it kind of really fucks up all Google searches.

02:11:03.000 Oh.

02:11:08.000 Yeah, but I don't see Paul Offitt in there.

02:11:10.000 I don't see Paul Offitt in there.

02:11:11.000 Have you talked about this publicly before?

02:11:13.000 No, never.

02:11:14.000 Oh, too bad.

02:11:15.000 I just, this happened.

02:11:15.000 No, I just did it.

02:11:17.000 This was actually literally just a few days ago.

02:11:20.000 Well, I think one of the things that Robert Epstein, because he's been on my podcast, been on multiple podcasts, but he's been talking about the dangers of these curated search engines and how it's essentially election rigging.

02:11:32.000 Like you're manipulating a statistically significant number of people to one side or the other, and you could do it by curating search engines.

02:11:39.000 Well, the experiment we just did might reflect that my first theory might be less of that, right?

02:11:46.000 Because look, there it is.

02:11:47.000 It's happenstance.

02:11:48.000 That's why I said I have no idea.

02:11:49.000 I'm speculating.

02:11:51.000 But it could be pre-recorded could not.

02:11:53.000 It could be also your own algorithm because maybe you were searching for Paul Offitt.

02:11:59.000 Maybe you had Googled Paul Offitt's full of shit just before that.

02:12:03.000 I don't need to Google that.

02:12:06.000 That's not.

02:12:06.000 I don't need to.

02:12:07.000 I don't know when they've added this, but they definitely added on the screen what they call personalization for these results.

02:12:13.000 Aha, results are personalized.

02:12:15.000 Try without personalization.

02:12:17.000 That could have something interesting.

02:12:19.000 Let's try it without personalization.

02:12:21.000 Let's see if it changes.

02:12:22.000 Well, I'm already done a different route.

02:12:24.000 Oh, you already put Paul Offitt in there?

02:12:26.000 I started searching for a second.

02:12:27.000 So, if you do with that person, it doesn't delete the product.

02:12:30.000 Interesting.

02:12:30.000 Personalized, it knows you're a right person.

02:12:35.000 It knows you're a radical.

02:12:36.000 But I would speculate that the probably bigger component is the who's got, again, it comes back to who's got the money to understand how these AI algorithms work and to maybe put the stuff out there that it's going to most likely read from.

02:12:51.000 I mean, when you do AI, you can get that, I see that like crazy scroll of all the things it's looking at, right?

02:12:57.000 So, if I've got, if I am a pharma company and I've got a multi-billion dollar budget every year to influence and to market and so forth, you know, I'm going to deploy that in the way that's probably the most effective.

02:13:10.000 One of the things I probably would do is maybe do the things that would influence the results on AI.

02:13:17.000 Potentially.

02:13:18.000 Yeah, I would do.

02:13:19.000 But especially if there's no regulations.

02:13:21.000 That's the weird thing about curating search engines.

02:13:24.000 If it's like your search engine, you can kind of do whatever you want, especially if your company, like, wasn't it like one of the major tech companies after Donald Trump won in 2016 that had a meeting, they were like, we can't let this happen again.

02:13:38.000 Was that Facebook or Google?

02:13:40.000 Do you remember, Jamie?

02:13:41.000 It was like very famous that people were like, what are you talking about?

02:13:45.000 What?

02:13:46.000 How can you say that?

02:13:47.000 How could you even say that?

02:13:48.000 Even if you, you're right.

02:13:50.000 Like, the idea that you can somehow or other stop someone from being elected if the public wants that person to be elected because you disagree with it is kind of a crazy thing to say out loud.

02:14:02.000 Well, you know, I'm thinking more about your question.

02:14:05.000 So when we found that thing with Paul Offitt, when we found that thing with Paul Offitt a few days ago, my social media manager and my, I've got a, you know, got a lot of folks at my law firm, and we have somebody who does like Google AdWords stuff and SEO stuff.

02:14:19.000 And then we have another guy who does the web-related stuff.

02:14:23.000 I know they did some things, and maybe with my little measly budget, it had that effect.

02:14:29.000 And so, Matt, so that would go to my second point that with enough dollars, and who cares about my, I mean, I don't think pharma cares about my substack.

02:14:37.000 Trust me, they're not scared of my substack.

02:14:38.000 50.

02:14:38.000 Well, I don't know about that because even if you don't have a ton of subscribers, it's still out there.

02:14:46.000 And all it takes is one podcast appearance like this one, and people go there.

02:14:51.000 And then all it takes is one investigative reporter to talk about it to get a.

02:14:57.000 It's a weird time for somebody.

02:14:59.000 All right.

02:15:00.000 Well, let's see if two weeks from now it goes back.

02:15:02.000 Yeah, they'll never put it back.

02:15:04.000 They'll never put it back.

02:15:05.000 But if you guys did do something about it, that does make sense that they corrected it.

02:15:09.000 And you complained about it.

02:15:10.000 Well, no, I think that, you know, they had brought up doing like keywords and stuff like that because there were some emails about, I remember trying to fix it.

02:15:19.000 I'm amazed that it looks like it did.

02:15:22.000 Well, I mean, I don't want that smoke.

02:15:24.000 So maybe it's, you know, it just kind of shits.

02:15:26.000 They just need to be, yeah, shine light on it.

02:15:28.000 It's the best disinfection, sunlight.

02:15:32.000 I just don't like the idea of curated search engines.

02:15:35.000 It's really spooky.

02:15:36.000 It's no different to me than curating information on social media platforms based on whatever your ideology is.

02:15:42.000 Like, I don't think you should be able to do that in terms of like, I don't think the company should be able to tell you you can't see certain things.

02:15:49.000 And YouTube was terrible about that during the pandemic.

02:15:52.000 All the things that turned out to be true could have got you banned from YouTube.

02:15:55.000 The lab leak theory kicked off.

02:15:58.000 You know, the fact that the vaccines, even if you get vaccinated, you still can catch COVID.

02:16:04.000 Remember, that was a breakthrough infection.

02:16:06.000 It was extremely rare.

02:16:08.000 Extremely rare breakthrough infection.

02:16:11.000 Never heard of it.

02:16:13.000 And now it's everybody, literally everybody.

02:16:14.000 And then it became this weird fucking, everybody did these weird mental gymnastics where they started repeating, oh, but it stops hospitalization and death.

02:16:24.000 And like, what are you talking about?

02:16:25.000 You never said that before.

02:16:27.000 You are saying that they were saying it stops hospitalization and death.

02:16:31.000 And you don't even have anything to gain here.

02:16:33.000 You just don't want to be wrong about your decision to get injected and to promote it, which is nuts.

02:16:38.000 It's like people are doing the man's work for the man.

02:16:42.000 They've signed up as volunteers in the propaganda army and shaming all the people that didn't go along with it and never apologizing.

02:16:51.000 No one wants to apologize for calling people plague rats and telling people that they should have their children taken away from them.

02:16:58.000 Nutty, weird, dystopian shit.

02:17:01.000 They don't realize that they are creating more vaccine hesitancy with that kind of conduct than anything that you and I could do on this podcast at all.

02:17:14.000 You know, the CDC webpage on vaccines and autism has now been updated, and it says now that there's effectively no studies to show the vaccines in the first six months of life do not cause autism.

02:17:24.000 It now says that.

02:17:25.000 And that we have missed, that the CDC has misled the public on that score.

02:17:30.000 And people trashed, the mainstream media trash Bobby for that, while instead of celebrating it as an opportunity to correct course of transparency, honestly, people are more likely to trust our federal health agencies when they're honest, when they're apologized, when they're willing to admit mistakes.

02:17:49.000 They're not there yet, though, unfortunately.

02:17:51.000 No, because it's still a part of their political ideology.

02:17:54.000 It's a part of their clan.

02:17:56.000 And they don't even think about it.

02:17:58.000 They don't look into it.

02:17:59.000 They don't read any studies.

02:18:01.000 They don't read any synopsis of any studies.

02:18:03.000 They just go full bore ahead.

02:18:05.000 It's been thoroughly debunked and they'll argue with you.

02:18:08.000 It's been thoroughly debunked.

02:18:09.000 It's all nonsense.

02:18:10.000 You know, depositions I've taken of vaccinologists, pediatricians, infectious disease experts, and immunologists, where I will say something about this.

02:18:18.000 You know, these studies show that, for example, the studies show that children that have had cancer and measles have lower rate of cancers and they'll go out.

02:18:26.000 That's just nonsense.

02:18:27.000 Those studies are just junk.

02:18:28.000 I'll say, have you read the studies?

02:18:32.000 No, no.

02:18:33.000 Have you seen them?

02:18:34.000 But see, but they knew already.

02:18:34.000 No.

02:18:37.000 You know, they've already reached that a priori conclusion.

02:18:40.000 I remember my deposition, not to go back to autism, of Dr. Edwards, where I said to her, You have any studies that show the Hep B vaccine does not cause autism?

02:18:48.000 She said, no.

02:18:49.000 I said, but there is a study that shows three times the rate of autism amongst kids that didn't get HEP vaccine.

02:18:56.000 And she says, well, I don't think that's not a good study.

02:18:58.000 I said, what study is that?

02:19:00.000 She goes, why don't you show me the study?

02:19:04.000 Because she hadn't read it.

02:19:06.000 She doesn't know.

02:19:07.000 Why don't you show me the study?

02:19:10.000 That's that, because it doesn't fit within the belief system, unfortunately, when it comes to this.

02:19:17.000 And it's so easy because, like you said, all you got to do is just say, eh, they're just an anti-vaxxer.

02:19:24.000 Exactly.

02:19:25.000 And it's all when the entire, when you have a company, like whatever company it is, whether it's Google or Facebook or whatever, and that company operates on an ideology that's not grounded in reality, and then they enforce it across their platform, it's very frustrating and really nutty to watch.

02:19:42.000 And just thank God there exists some alternatives.

02:19:46.000 Like you would need a crazy person worth a ton of money, like Elon, to just go and buy it.

02:19:52.000 And then also show, hey, it's still the number one platform for distributing information.

02:19:57.000 In the same way that what Elon did for social media, if he could do that for search, that'd be great.

02:20:04.000 But I think search is dying.

02:20:06.000 I don't think AI is searching.

02:20:08.000 Yes, AI is going to take over.

02:20:09.000 I don't see.

02:20:10.000 I hardly ever search things anymore.

02:20:11.000 Everybody goes to AI these days, from what I could see.

02:20:13.000 Because I can ask a question.

02:20:15.000 Like, how did this come about?

02:20:16.000 I could ask follow-ups.

02:20:18.000 Are there any dissenting opinions?

02:20:19.000 I love doing that.

02:20:21.000 It's good, but it also requires less thinking, so it's bad in that regard.

02:20:23.000 But yes.

02:20:24.000 Well, it depends on how you're using it.

02:20:26.000 When I'm using it, it's usually when I'm writing, I'm writing about a certain subject.

02:20:28.000 I'm like, well, who were the first people to discover these Aztec pyramids?

02:20:33.000 You know, I'll get into something like that.

02:20:34.000 Like, what were they looking for?

02:20:35.000 Like, you know what I mean?

02:20:36.000 And like, it's almost like you're talking to an expert.

02:20:39.000 So instead of it being like something that I use to think for me, it's like a super smart friend I'm bouncing questions off of.

02:20:47.000 And you could find so much about things so quickly, as opposed to having to go through article after article after article, and like, and that's what I'm looking for.

02:20:55.000 What did Court, how did he trick those people and give them up their land?

02:20:58.000 There's only fucking 600 of them.

02:21:00.000 How'd they do that?

02:21:01.000 You know, like you need to, like, AI is fantastic for that kind of shit.

02:21:05.000 But if you're using it all day, like a lot of kids in my school, my kids' schools are getting busted for writing papers that are 100% AI.

02:21:15.000 Like they were a moron.

02:21:19.000 Seventh grade.

02:21:20.000 It's like PhD genius level paper.

02:21:23.000 Yeah.

02:21:24.000 Most of these 12-year-olds are fucking wizards.

02:21:27.000 Yeah.

02:21:27.000 It's hilarious.

02:21:28.000 It's not good.

02:21:29.000 That's not good.

02:21:29.000 I mean, you saw that.

02:21:30.000 You saw those studies that came out.

02:21:32.000 Again, not my area, but and I don't know.

02:21:34.000 I've only read the abstracts.

02:21:35.000 I don't know.

02:21:36.000 But the more that technology has been adopted into classrooms, it appears the more detrimental it has been and actually the markers of what you would consider an educated or education or intelligence.

02:21:49.000 100%.

02:21:50.000 It's a distraction.

02:21:51.000 It's like, there's no way it could be good.

02:21:53.000 You're on TikTok all day.

02:21:54.000 But if you're using AI, the one thing I will say, depending on the topic, but you probably should do it for all topics, is never just rely on the output.

02:22:02.000 You got to ask if you should.

02:22:03.000 Show me the primary source and look at it yourself.

02:22:05.000 It's so critical in every area.

02:22:07.000 Especially if it's something controversial.

02:22:09.000 I mean, generally, I'm asking questions about something I'm looking up that's not that controversial in terms of like whether or not it's argued.

02:22:15.000 You ever look up yourself?

02:22:16.000 No.

02:22:17.000 No, I know.

02:22:18.000 Jesus Christ.

02:22:18.000 I don't look up myself ever because I don't want to know.

02:22:21.000 I don't want to know people's opinions.

02:22:23.000 I don't want to know what it thinks of me.

02:22:24.000 I couldn't care less.

02:22:26.000 I think it's much better to just keep on going.

02:22:29.000 If you're in the public eye, including you now, everyone is subject to an opinion.

02:22:34.000 And there's certain opinions that are just, they're not people that you would ever want to talk to.

02:22:40.000 And those kind of people exist.

02:22:43.000 There's going to be shitty people out there.

02:22:45.000 And their opinion written down looks just like your opinion.

02:22:48.000 Better to not have any of it.

02:22:50.000 Better to not watch any videos.

02:22:53.000 Better to not listen to anything.

02:22:55.000 Just be a good internal judge.

02:22:58.000 Be objective about your own self and be self-critical to the point where it's healthy and leave it alone.

02:23:05.000 I was watching, like I was talking to this the other day.

02:23:06.000 I was watching this lady who was this very boring, not very exciting lady, talking about how bad the Beatles were.

02:23:13.000 And I was like, you should shut the fuck up.

02:23:16.000 Like, the Beatles are incredible.

02:23:19.000 You're just a moron.

02:23:20.000 You're just a dull-brained fucking dork just wandering through life.

02:23:25.000 But you're allowed to.

02:23:25.000 You're allowed to have those opinions.

02:23:27.000 It's like good luck finding a bunch of people that agree with you, but you're allowed to try.

02:23:31.000 But I don't want to be a part of it.

02:23:33.000 I don't want to be washing, swimming through bullshit opinions all day long.

02:23:38.000 I don't think it's healthy.

02:23:39.000 Yeah, but I do think facing the opinions and the views, substantive opinions, views of those that don't agree with you is an important exercise in life and in any, in every area, frankly.

02:23:51.000 I mean, I'm, you know, when it comes to the work that I do, you know, I welcome having debates with those who claim they are the vaccine experts.

02:24:01.000 I mean, I'm well, this is, we're talking about a very different kind of thing than looking at yourself.

02:24:05.000 Yeah, you're looking up hardline data.

02:24:07.000 And it's very important what you do because it's crazy to say that being honest in this regard is courageous, but it is courageous because I've seen you attacked.

02:24:18.000 I've seen crazy shit that people said about you.

02:24:22.000 And it's like, good Lord, are you paying attention to what he's actually saying?

02:24:26.000 Or are you some bot from somewhere, some fucking bot farm in Vietnam that's been hired to push a narrative?

02:24:34.000 I don't know.

02:24:36.000 But there's a reality to data that's undeniable that needs to be promoted.

02:24:43.000 And I think that's what you're doing.

02:24:45.000 There's a reality to the data.

02:24:47.000 I don't imagine a whole lot of people are lining up to debate you about this.

02:24:54.000 Well, Paul Offord and I had an exchange on the internet.

02:24:57.000 First we had it on Twitter.

02:24:58.000 In Twitter, no, he won't do it.

02:24:58.000 In person?

02:25:00.000 So we had it.

02:25:01.000 Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

02:25:02.000 And then he moved it on to Substack, and it's all there.

02:25:04.000 It's a great exchange.

02:25:05.000 And I've offered him, and not, just to be clear, not like a gotcha debate.

02:25:11.000 I've offered him to have a debate where we each get 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and we each get to present the evidence.

02:25:19.000 So we have a screen.

02:25:20.000 We can put up our evidence and we can go back and forth with equal amount of time so nobody's talking over each other.

02:25:26.000 It's civil and it's based on the substance.

02:25:29.000 I've offered him to do that.

02:25:30.000 But the truth is I don't need to debate him.

02:25:32.000 I've already debated the world's leading vaccinologist, Dr. Stanley Plocken, a nine-hour deposition.

02:25:37.000 People talk about, we should have a vaccine debate.

02:25:40.000 Well, I've done that.

02:25:42.000 It's all on the internet and you can watch it.

02:25:42.000 It's nine hours.

02:25:45.000 And when my client put it out there and it ended up on YouTube, this was many years ago, it had like millions of views at one point.

02:25:52.000 And then YouTube took it off.

02:25:54.000 And then people keep putting it back on.

02:25:56.000 And it's just a deposition.

02:25:57.000 It just keeps coming back and forth and back and forth.

02:26:00.000 Why are they taking YouTube?

02:26:01.000 Leave it up.

02:26:02.000 Well, I don't know if they're still taking it down right now.

02:26:02.000 Stop.

02:26:04.000 I hope now the climate's changed enough.

02:26:07.000 He used to take it down and down.

02:26:08.000 And so, and I've, you know, and I've done Senate hearings where they've, but those vaccinologists, they don't want to show up anymore.

02:26:14.000 I offered Peter Hotez that opportunity on the podcast.

02:26:18.000 And I told him I would donate $100,000 to whatever charity of his choice.

02:26:21.000 And he like mocked that number as being insignificant.

02:26:24.000 I'm like, well, tell me what the fucking number is.

02:26:26.000 Like, just come on.

02:26:27.000 And I was going to have him and RFK Jr. because he was talking about me having RFK Jr. on.

02:26:32.000 They're saying a bunch of lies.

02:26:33.000 I'm like, well, instead of saying that, and I think he, God, I forget what term he used for me.

02:26:39.000 I'm like, Peter, you've been on my podcast twice.

02:26:41.000 So, what the fuck are you talking about?

02:26:43.000 Like, why are you behaving like this?

02:26:44.000 This is crazy.

02:26:47.000 What did he call me?

02:26:48.000 Like, it was something about some alt-right, adjacent or neo-fascist, adjacent.

02:26:59.000 The point is, he was adominum instead of substance.

02:27:02.000 You gave him an opportunity to show he was right in front of the world.

02:27:05.000 He is the vaccinologist.

02:27:07.000 Bobby, just a lawyer, obviously will drool on himself.

02:27:11.000 Like, debate him.

02:27:12.000 What's the big deal?

02:27:14.000 And I remember after he did that, I didn't, I didn't, he had said all this stuff about me because Bobby was on the podcast.

02:27:21.000 And it was one of the rare times that I have to go after, ever go after anyone on Twitter.

02:27:26.000 But I was like, stop.

02:27:27.000 Why are you saying that?

02:27:28.000 This is stupid.

02:27:29.000 And I remember a whole bunch of people added in.

02:27:31.000 Like, they were willing to add.

02:27:33.000 I thought it was over, I forgot the number, but it was in like a million.

02:27:35.000 Million, two million.

02:27:36.000 It was in the millions.

02:27:37.000 They were willing to, and he still would not sit down and do it.

02:27:39.000 And the argument that you'll often hear is they'll say, well, I'm not good at debating.

02:27:44.000 It's, you know, he's a lawyer.

02:27:45.000 He'll use lawyer tricks.

02:27:47.000 Peter Hotez?

02:27:48.000 No, no, no, no.

02:27:49.000 He's a lawyer.

02:27:50.000 Bobby's a lawyer.

02:27:51.000 Or they'll say that he's a lawyer.

02:27:53.000 I'm a lawyer, you know, and what they don't, but, but, you know, data wins.

02:27:59.000 Exactly.

02:28:00.000 And I would let that data win.

02:28:01.000 The substance should win.

02:28:03.000 If you're right, I want to know.

02:28:05.000 You tell me.

02:28:05.000 I don't fucking know.

02:28:06.000 I'm willing to debate Peter Hotez here any day.

02:28:09.000 I don't think he's going to do it.

02:28:10.000 I'll debate Paul Offitt.

02:28:12.000 Any of them.

02:28:13.000 In fact, Stanley Plachin just wrote me a letter after all these years after I deposed him.

02:28:17.000 He wrote me a letter.

02:28:17.000 First time ever.

02:28:18.000 What did he say?

02:28:19.000 He said, I heard you wrote a book.

02:28:21.000 I heard you wrote a book.

02:28:22.000 And your deposition went very, very long.

02:28:26.000 And I wasn't prepared enough.

02:28:27.000 He's world's leading vaccinologist.

02:28:29.000 And I will be credited with saving millions.

02:28:32.000 And you will go down in history as the one who's harmed and killed children.

02:28:37.000 That's what he wrote me a letter.

02:28:38.000 And I wrote him back a response.

02:28:42.000 And I said, look, I said, Dr. Plach, and I said, thank you for your letter.

02:28:46.000 I appreciate that you're writing me finally.

02:28:48.000 Because I've reached out to him before, one time at least.

02:28:51.000 And I said, look, I said, I think we can agree on one thing.

02:28:56.000 We want to save as many children as possible.

02:28:59.000 I want to save children from infectious disease.

02:29:01.000 That's important.

02:29:02.000 I agree.

02:29:03.000 But I also want to save children from the harm from these products.

02:29:07.000 They matter too.

02:29:09.000 They're not just, there shouldn't be accepted casualties.

02:29:12.000 The tens of thousands of families have contacted my law firm, devastating harms from these products.

02:29:19.000 They matter too.

02:29:20.000 And I said, let's work together.

02:29:22.000 Let's work constructively.

02:29:23.000 I said, because look, at the end of the day, If you don't address this, if you don't address this issue, I said, history is not going to remember you for the good.

02:29:33.000 History is going to remember you for all the harm you cause.

02:29:36.000 Because when people look back in history at products that cause devastating harm, which vaccines can do, they don't remember the good those products did.

02:29:44.000 They remember the harms that people ignored, that were overlooked, and those were just cast aside.

02:29:49.000 I said, that will be your legacy.

02:29:50.000 I said, but there's time to correct.

02:29:52.000 He hasn't written me back.

02:29:52.000 So of course I posted both letters on my sub stack and I tweeted them out.

02:29:56.000 So this way I figured they could do some good that way.

02:29:59.000 So they're available to everybody to read.

02:30:01.000 Well, I think it's a very unique time that this message can get out there.

02:30:09.000 Because what they did when they removed liability and they gave them blanket protection like that, they opened up the door to a bunch of people that really don't give a shit about you.

02:30:23.000 They just want to make as much money as possible.

02:30:25.000 There's the scientists.

02:30:26.000 This is what I always describe like these companies.

02:30:28.000 You've got the people that are making these drugs.

02:30:31.000 You've got these really interesting, brilliant scientists.

02:30:33.000 And then you got the fucking money people.

02:30:35.000 And the money people don't give a shit. 1.00

02:30:37.000 They just want to make more money.

02:30:39.000 And they're both together.

02:30:40.000 So you have this weird, contradictory world where you have like some amazing pharmaceutical drugs that helped so many people and kept people alive and cured diseases.

02:30:50.000 And then you got the money people who want everybody to get shot up because it's going to make them more money.

02:30:56.000 And those two working together is a very bad mixture, especially when you have mandates.

02:31:03.000 Then you mandate that these people have to be able to inject you and inject your children with this thing that's going to make them money and they have zero liability.

02:31:11.000 Like, how could that possibly go well?

02:31:14.000 Knowing what you know about human beings, who would sign off on that?

02:31:19.000 I don't know.

02:31:19.000 That's crazy.

02:31:21.000 You know, I had a business idea for you.

02:31:22.000 Okay.

02:31:23.000 Sure.

02:31:23.000 It's a great business idea.

02:31:23.000 Want to hear it?

02:31:24.000 Hey, listen, we're going to sell this product.

02:31:26.000 Okay.

02:31:27.000 Let's go.

02:31:27.000 Okay.

02:31:28.000 We can inject it into people.

02:31:30.000 Are you worried it's going to hurt people?

02:31:31.000 Well, I'm a little worried until I want to hear your story first.

02:31:33.000 But don't worry.

02:31:34.000 Don't worry.

02:31:35.000 Don't worry.

02:31:36.000 Don't worry about it because governments can give us immunity to liability no matter how many people we hurt or kill.

02:31:40.000 Okay.

02:31:41.000 How did you work that out?

02:31:42.000 Yeah, I know.

02:31:43.000 Now, now, the weird part is you might be saying to me, you say, Aaron, Aaron, wait a second.

02:31:47.000 But who the hell didn't take that?

02:31:49.000 And I'll say, Joe, don't worry.

02:31:51.000 The government's going to mandate it too.

02:31:53.000 And you might say, okay, but what if people rise up?

02:31:56.000 And I'll say, Joe, don't worry.

02:31:59.000 They're going to spend billions convincing the public it's the best thing since sliced bread.

02:32:05.000 And then you're going to say, but what if people still don't want to pay for it?

02:32:08.000 And I'll say, don't worry.

02:32:10.000 The government, through a program, literally pays for half of all vaccine guarantees payment to the pharma companies, even if people cannot pay.

02:32:19.000 So sounds like a good investment.

02:32:21.000 No liability, guaranteed market, free promotion, guaranteed payment.

02:32:26.000 It's the most, if it wasn't vaccines, you'd say it's insane.

02:32:31.000 It is insane, and that is the business model of vaccines.

02:32:34.000 That literally is what I just said.

02:32:35.000 Think of it.

02:32:36.000 It's just, so you're right, it's perverse.

02:32:38.000 But this thing that you're just saying before about like the money men who want to just make money, like, look, we live in a capitalist system where we have tapped into that self-interest, but we try to harness it for good.

02:32:56.000 So every company has that to some degree.

02:32:59.000 You know, people have that to some degree.

02:33:01.000 But the idea with capitalism is, yeah, but you got to channel that and you got to do good.

02:33:05.000 You got to do a good product.

02:33:06.000 You got to do a good service.

02:33:07.000 You got to do something positive.

02:33:09.000 And if you don't, you'll be held accountable.

02:33:12.000 So it's got guardrails.

02:33:15.000 Yes.

02:33:15.000 So, you know, it's, it's, you know, because I, you know, people are like, well, what are you saying?

02:33:20.000 Like, people are sitting there in the farm company with horns and evil.

02:33:22.000 No, they're just, but they're just, they don't have guardrails.

02:33:25.000 And they've, and they've gone totally, you know, they've gone totally off the rail.

02:33:29.000 Do you like my business idea?

02:33:31.000 It's a great idea.

02:33:32.000 I'll make talk to my lawyer first because I don't want to go to jail.

02:33:36.000 Oh, you're right.

02:33:38.000 I'm a thing in a sane society.

02:33:39.000 I'll get locked up for the rest of my life, especially if he killed a bunch of people, which is really crazy that none of these people do wind up going to jail.

02:33:46.000 They pay giant criminal fines and then they slip away.

02:33:49.000 I mean, look at the Sackler family.

02:33:50.000 They haven't been jailed, right?

02:33:53.000 Wasn't there like they were going to get immunity in favor of like $6 billion or something crazy?

02:33:59.000 But then a judge kind of put the kibosh on that after Painkiller, the Netflix docudrama came out.

02:34:05.000 Yeah.

02:34:05.000 And then critically, too, I would say it's like, do you remember during the bank crisis, there were the banks that were too big to fail?

02:34:13.000 Yeah.

02:34:13.000 So they want to touch those.

02:34:14.000 The Sackler family, to me, it's like the smaller bank that they could, there was a, I mean, it was bad, but they could sacrifice them.

02:34:23.000 They could sacrifice that pharma company.

02:34:25.000 Are they going to sacrifice Merck, Sanofi, Pfizer, GSK?

02:34:29.000 Any of those guys?

02:34:31.000 Are they really going to sacrifice them at the end of the day, no matter how much harm they do?

02:34:36.000 I don't know.

02:34:37.000 It's hard to see it.

02:34:39.000 Well, listen, I'm glad you're out there.

02:34:42.000 And I'm glad you can articulate these points so clearly and passionately because people need to hear it.

02:34:48.000 They need to know what the actual data is, what the actual story is about all of it.

02:34:53.000 And it's better for all of us.

02:34:55.000 And as hard as it is, a pill to swallow, people need to get that glass of water and start swallowing.

02:35:01.000 So thank you very much.

02:35:02.000 Thanks for being here.

02:35:03.000 I really enjoyed it.

02:35:04.000 And tell everybody your book.

02:35:05.000 Did you do an audio version of it?

02:35:07.000 Did you read it?

02:35:07.000 I did.

02:35:08.000 I did.

02:35:09.000 Oh, how much work was it?

02:35:10.000 Oh, my God.

02:35:12.000 Oh, my gosh.

02:35:13.000 That was a lot.

02:35:15.000 I thought I could read, by the way.

02:35:18.000 I was like, I can read.

02:35:19.000 Yeah, it's just reading.

02:35:20.000 And then I realized, but I had to read the book.

02:35:22.000 It was like I couldn't read anymore.

02:35:23.000 Oh, that's good.

02:35:24.000 Did you have to ever have to read an audiobook?

02:35:24.000 Oh, my gosh.

02:35:26.000 No, but I do ads for the podcast, and Jamie will tell you.

02:35:28.000 I'm always like, fuck.

02:35:30.000 I'm always fucking up sentences.

02:35:32.000 Then you got to read to them.

02:35:33.000 It's brutal.

02:35:34.000 Yeah.

02:35:35.000 Talk, just talking is fine.

02:35:36.000 Right.

02:35:37.000 When you have to read out loud, like your tongue gets all tripped up.

02:35:41.000 I'm like, I go to federal court.

02:35:42.000 I can argue.

02:35:43.000 I got to go to Senate hearings.

02:35:44.000 I can like, I'm like, telling the audio guy because we're in the studio alone.

02:35:47.000 I'm like, I really am.

02:35:49.000 I think I'm.

02:35:51.000 It might seem like a total moron, but I probably am a moron, but I'm just a little bit, I don't know.

02:35:57.000 I felt like such a moron.

02:35:59.000 Yeah, I really read their own books and they feel the exact same way.

02:36:02.000 It's so painful.

02:36:03.000 Oh, my goodness.

02:36:05.000 But I did it.

02:36:06.000 It's out there on Audible and the books on Amazon vaccines.

02:36:06.000 It's done.

02:36:11.000 All right, Aaron, thank you very much.

02:36:13.000 It was an honor and a pleasure having you in here.

02:36:15.000 I really appreciate it.

02:36:16.000 Thank you, Stan.

02:36:16.000 Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - March 03, 2026

Joe Rogan Experience #2462 - Aaron Siri

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