The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2465 - Michael Shellenberger

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out!

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night, all day.

00:00:12.000 Good to see you, sir.

00:00:13.000 Thanks for having me back.

00:00:14.000 My pleasure.

00:00:15.000 Always. 0.99

00:00:15.000 So much crazy shit going on in the world. 0.99

00:00:19.000 And even before we scheduled this, like more crazy stuff has happened. 0.99

00:00:24.000 The war broke out, all kinds of things.

00:00:26.000 Yeah.

00:00:28.000 How are you feeling about President Trump?

00:00:30.000 That's an open-ended question.

00:00:33.000 Do you text with him and talk to him?

00:00:35.000 Occasionally.

00:00:36.000 Yeah, occasionally he'll send me a text.

00:00:38.000 I get these true social posts of things that he's saying. 1.00

00:00:44.000 This whole fucking Iran thing, man. 0.99

00:00:48.000 Did you see this coming? 1.00

00:00:50.000 No.

00:00:50.000 Definitely.

00:00:51.000 I don't know.

00:00:52.000 I mean, who did?

00:00:53.000 I mean, when did he even decide?

00:00:55.000 You know, their national security strategy they put out in November basically just said we've degraded their capacity.

00:01:01.000 It's a win.

00:01:01.000 There was no sense in which there would be additional action.

00:01:05.000 I think it ushers in a new paradigm.

00:01:08.000 Complete, like, the older post-war era is just over. 0.86

00:01:11.000 Mark Carney, the prime minister of Canada, articulated that at the World Economic Forum, probably better than the Trump administration did, saying very clearly that older rules-based order is gone.

00:01:21.000 You saw AOC try to sort of articulate it, but she sort of fell apart at the Munich Security Conference in February.

00:01:28.000 So this is an administration that is, I mean, and I don't even think they're thinking.

00:01:32.000 I wrote a piece and I decided not to publish it because I was sort of like, decapitation doesn't really work for regime change, but it's not clear that they're really out for regime change or they're just asserting power, shaking up things.

00:01:45.000 I mean, some of it's art of the deal, changing the person that we're negotiating with.

00:01:48.000 That's Venezuela and Iran. 0.95

00:01:51.000 Is it really going to change those regimes?

00:01:53.000 I don't think most people don't think so, but I'm not sure that that's what they're going for.

00:01:57.000 They're just going for an assertion of American power in service of American interests.

00:02:02.000 And then what happens in Iran, what happens in Venezuela, I don't think they care that much about.

00:02:06.000 At least they're not behaving as though they do.

00:02:09.000 Well, neither thing made any sense to me.

00:02:12.000 The Venezuela thing, I mean, look, they wanted him out forever.

00:02:17.000 And he definitely stole the election to get in there in the first place.

00:02:20.000 And he was a dictator.

00:02:22.000 But at least that one was at least clean.

00:02:25.000 They go in, kidnap him, get him out. 0.99

00:02:28.000 This one's nuts.

00:02:29.000 Like, and what's happening in Tel Aviv, it's hard to know what's real and what's not because there's a lot of fake video going around and a lot of weird posts on X.

00:02:39.000 So it's, you know, when I do peek in, it's hard to know.

00:02:42.000 And you have to listen to Grok.

00:02:44.000 And then Grok's dismantling a lot of the fake videos.

00:02:51.000 Wait, what are the fake videos that you're at?

00:02:52.000 This is like fake videos of an insane amount of bombs dropping down on the city.

00:02:59.000 But it seems like there's a massive amount of destruction in Tel Aviv.

00:03:03.000 Yeah, I haven't checked in lately, but I'm assuming.

00:03:05.000 Was that just today?

00:03:06.000 Yesterday?

00:03:07.000 Yeah.

00:03:08.000 Yeah.

00:03:10.000 I mean, I think the president is - there's been some just, you know, Rubio said something about how, oh, we had to act because we knew that Israel was going to act anyway.

00:03:17.000 And I think people interpret it.

00:03:18.000 And then Netanyahu, who's in the White House a lot.

00:03:21.000 I think this president has shown, whether you like him or not, and there's certainly things that I'm unhappy about and have criticized.

00:03:28.000 But I think Trump is in charge.

00:03:29.000 Like he's making these decisions.

00:03:31.000 There's nobody behind him.

00:03:32.000 There's nobody, nobody pulling for all of that.

00:03:34.000 You know, the Russians or whoever, now the Israelis, you know, it's just he's clearly, I mean, Elon gave him, you know, $250 million and he still didn't give him even the electric car credit.

00:03:46.000 You know, like Trump is in charge.

00:03:48.000 You know, like, I think that's one of the big lessons from this.

00:03:51.000 And I don't think that I think that means that there's not a lot of second order thinking here.

00:03:56.000 Like, oh, what's the move after that?

00:03:57.000 He doesn't know.

00:03:58.000 He's just acting.

00:03:59.000 That's what's so wild about it is that this older foreign policy establishment, which was like, let the experts decide what the right foreign policy, you know, all these think tanks.

00:04:08.000 And that's just gone now.

00:04:09.000 It's just irrelevant in this presidency.

00:04:11.000 And I don't think it'll come back.

00:04:12.000 Like, if you get a Gavin Newsom or a President AOC, I don't.

00:04:16.000 President who?

00:04:17.000 I don't think for a minute before Munich.

00:04:21.000 But I don't think it's going to come back.

00:04:22.000 And I think that that's what the Prime Minister of Canada realized.

00:04:25.000 I think that's what the Europeans are starting to realize is that this is a completely different world that we live in than the one we lived in just a couple of years ago.

00:04:32.000 It just doesn't make any sense to me unless we're acting on someone else's interests, like particularly Israel's interests.

00:04:37.000 It just didn't make any sense to me.

00:04:39.000 Like if they had supposedly dismantled their chances of making the nuclear bomb, whether or not that's true, I mean, it's so hard to know.

00:04:49.000 He was unsatisfied, and just like he was like, I'm not getting anywhere in these negotiations, and I'm going to replace the person I'm negotiating with.

00:04:57.000 It's just, you know, turn over the table, like change things up.

00:05:01.000 You're not getting anywhere.

00:05:02.000 And you could say he was too impatient.

00:05:05.000 Their view was the Democrats were too patient with Iran.

00:05:08.000 They kept trying with Iran. 0.93

00:05:09.000 Iran, they weren't giving them what they wanted. 0.81

00:05:11.000 I'm not defending it.

00:05:12.000 I'm just saying I think that's what explains it.

00:05:16.000 They haven't done a very good job explaining it because I think that it just sounds to some extent like what it is, which is that they're acting without they're sort of like, well, does it result in regime change in Iran?

00:05:27.000 They might say that we want that or whatever, but that's not ultimately – they're not acting on the basis of achieving regime change.

00:05:27.000 We don't know.

00:05:33.000 But it just seems so insane based on what he ran on.

00:05:36.000 I mean this is why a lot of people feel betrayed, right? 1.00

00:05:39.000 He ran on no more wars and these stupid, senseless wars. 0.99

00:05:43.000 And then we have one that we can't even really clearly define why we did it. 0.99

00:05:49.000 Well, but he said he's against endless wars.

00:05:51.000 Well, they're all— He's against endless wars.

00:05:53.000 Listen, man, they're all endless.

00:05:54.000 Well, if you ever heard Rumsfeld talk about Iraq when it first happened, tell me.

00:05:59.000 They were talking about like six weeks.

00:06:00.000 Six weeks.

00:06:01.000 Oh, yeah.

00:06:02.000 Six weeks.

00:06:04.000 But that was ground force, and I know that they've not ruled that out.

00:06:04.000 Yeah.

00:06:08.000 For me, that would be.

00:06:09.000 They have?

00:06:10.000 They have not.

00:06:11.000 My understanding is that they have not.

00:06:12.000 I thought you said and now.

00:06:12.000 Yeah.

00:06:13.000 Yeah, no.

00:06:15.000 But they don't seem eager to go into.

00:06:16.000 I mean, I criticize the Venezuela action because I sort of was like, how are you possibly going to run Venezuela?

00:06:23.000 And then I think a little bit more time passed, and I was like, oh, they're not going to try to run Venezuela.

00:06:28.000 Like, that's not what this is.

00:06:31.000 They just wanted to take over the oil.

00:06:33.000 Yeah, and even there, I mean, the oil, it's not significant at any global level.

00:06:38.000 I don't even think it's really about the oil.

00:06:40.000 I don't think it's about the oil.

00:06:41.000 I don't think it's about the oil in Iran either.

00:06:42.000 Well, the oil reserves are significant.

00:06:44.000 It's just the type of oil and how to extract it is extremely difficult.

00:06:49.000 It's the worst, Joe.

00:06:50.000 It's in the Amazon.

00:06:51.000 The big abundant reserves are in the Amazon.

00:06:54.000 So you're talking about what a nightmare.

00:06:56.000 It's super far away.

00:06:57.000 It's terrible.

00:06:58.000 You had a guerrilla conflict.

00:06:59.000 If you had a guerrilla conflict break out around those oil facilities, I mean, it's already more expensive because you have to heat up that particular type of, it's really heavy oils.

00:07:08.000 If you heat it up to get it out of the ground, then you have to heat it to transport.

00:07:11.000 It's a total nightmare.

00:07:12.000 And as a conservationist, I would say that would be the last place I'd want to see us getting oil from.

00:07:18.000 There's a lot of other places that have oil.

00:07:20.000 We shouldn't be going into the Amazon.

00:07:22.000 So what, if anything, makes sense to you about this attack in Iran?

00:07:29.000 I don't know that I'm not sure what I think of it.

00:07:31.000 I mean, I don't I don't like it.

00:07:33.000 I don't like I mean, the whole older system was that you had this international U.S. Security Council would have to agree.

00:07:41.000 The Congress would have to agree.

00:07:42.000 That's all gone now.

00:07:43.000 I mean, it's just a totally different.

00:07:44.000 This guy is just acting.

00:07:47.000 He says he's not getting where they want to get in the negotiations with the Iranians. 0.96

00:07:50.000 So he says, we have some leverage over you and we're going to use it.

00:07:54.000 But clearly, Israel wanted this. 0.70

00:07:56.000 Israel has its own motivations, I think. 0.94

00:07:58.000 But I think it's not quite accurate to say that.

00:08:02.000 I just don't think all the evidence shows that Trump is his own man and he is the president.

00:08:07.000 And literally, he couldn't even give Elon the battery subsidy that he wanted.

00:08:11.000 You know what I mean?

00:08:12.000 I get that.

00:08:13.000 I've never seen a politician.

00:08:14.000 I mean, I've never seen a politician act that independently.

00:08:17.000 I mean, a president act that independently.

00:08:20.000 So I'm skeptical of, I mean, I think that Rubio was sort of like, well, they were going to attack, and so we had to, you know, there's some of that, but I just think Trump's doing what he wants to do.

00:08:31.000 And we should.

00:08:32.000 You really think it's that simple?

00:08:33.000 Trump's doing what he wants to do.

00:08:34.000 That's it?

00:08:35.000 Yes.

00:08:35.000 You don't think people are influencing him?

00:08:37.000 Because there's a lot of war hawks around him, right?

00:08:39.000 There's a lot of people that want to have a long time.

00:08:42.000 I mean, Netanyahu's in there, but then Tucker was in there a bunch. 0.73

00:08:44.000 But do you think Tucker has the kind of influence that Netanyahu has?

00:08:49.000 Well, I mean, I guess if you just base it on the outcome, then the answer is no.

00:08:52.000 No.

00:08:54.000 But that's what I'm saying.

00:08:55.000 I just think he listens to everybody, but I just don't think it's Russians aren't behind him. 1.00

00:09:00.000 Israelis.

00:09:01.000 I mean, Trump is, look what he's been through.

00:09:02.000 I mean, he's, you know, he's got where he is.

00:09:04.000 There's no way he's going to.

00:09:05.000 They don't have anything on him.

00:09:07.000 How do you know that?

00:09:08.000 I don't think they have anything on him.

00:09:09.000 But how does he behave that way?

00:09:11.000 Well, he could, but we don't see any evidence for it.

00:09:13.000 Well, you wouldn't see any evidence until it broke out until they released it.

00:09:17.000 Yeah.

00:09:17.000 And I'm sure we'll get into Epstein.

00:09:20.000 But I mean, I just think when you don't have evidence of something, then you can't assume that it's happening.

00:09:26.000 I haven't seen any evidence.

00:09:27.000 I've seen evidence that Trump is fully independent, particularly this case of Elon.

00:09:32.000 Surprised me.

00:09:33.000 I would have thought at a minimum you'd give your largest campaign contributor the one thing he wants.

00:09:40.000 I mean, Doge was something you wanted too.

00:09:42.000 And then I look at Iran and I kind of go, you know, Trump has always won.

00:09:45.000 I mean, Trump has been criticizing.

00:09:47.000 He said he doesn't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon for a really long time.

00:09:50.000 I don't know the exact date, but certainly – Well, no one wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon other than Iran, right? 0.74

00:09:55.000 Yeah.

00:09:56.000 I think that the way.

00:09:59.000 He was also critical of the Democrats' approach, which was the sort of the mainstream IAEA-approved approach, because, of course, under international law, Iran has the right to nuclear energy and to nuclear facilities, including nuclear centrifuges and the enrichment.

00:10:15.000 Iran has the right to all that under international law.

00:10:18.000 And Trump doesn't agree with that, and he's not going to let international law get in his way.

00:10:22.000 So when you say he has a right to it, you're talking just about nuclear power.

00:10:27.000 But that includes enrichment.

00:10:27.000 Yeah, right.

00:10:27.000 Right.

00:10:30.000 To a certain point.

00:10:31.000 Right.

00:10:31.000 But they've already surpassed that point.

00:10:33.000 Right.

00:10:34.000 And I believe, you know, if I'm wrong, I'll correct it on X, but I don't think it specifies the level of enrichment is part of the issue.

00:10:34.000 Yeah.

00:10:42.000 And then you've got these centrifuges, and so it's all been a cat and mouse game.

00:10:45.000 I personally do not doubt for a minute that Iran wants nuclear weapons.

00:10:48.000 And that's what's been going on.

00:10:49.000 I think most people think that.

00:10:50.000 But the Obama administration was like, we can do, you know, we can lift sanctions in exchange for controlling their nuclear program.

00:10:56.000 Trump has not for a very long time agreed with that approach.

00:10:59.000 I think he was criticizing it for many years before 2016 before he decided to run, but definitely for the last 10 years.

00:11:06.000 Did you read the thing today that came out that they're discussing some sort of a leaked transmission that seems to be an activation of terror cells?

00:11:18.000 Iranians have. 0.99

00:11:19.000 Yeah.

00:11:20.000 No, but I'm not surprised.

00:11:21.000 Right.

00:11:22.000 Sounds bad.

00:11:23.000 That's one of the things that obviously that was the first thing I thought of, was like, oh, great.

00:11:23.000 Yeah.

00:11:27.000 Are we going to get a bunch of Iranian suicide bombers in the United States now? 0.94

00:11:31.000 It's obviously.

00:11:32.000 I don't know if it's going to be suicide bombers, but I would imagine it would be something a little bit more destructive than that.

00:11:38.000 Could be.

00:11:40.000 I don't know what they can get in.

00:11:41.000 I mean, Sean Ryan's been having folks on that say that people are getting in with heavy artillery.

00:11:46.000 I just don't know the status of it.

00:11:48.000 Well, the real problem is they can do a lot.

00:11:50.000 For four years, the border was wide open.

00:11:53.000 Oh, yeah.

00:11:53.000 And definitely some people from the Middle East got through.

00:11:57.000 And we have no idea what is waiting.

00:12:01.000 I mean, I'm sure there are some intelligence agencies that have an understanding of what the threat is.

00:12:07.000 I hope so.

00:12:08.000 I mean, I think we see that these terrorists are able to do an incredible amount of damage with pretty simple rifles.

00:12:13.000 You know, and sometimes was it the French, the club, that particular terrorist action, there were other people that were using bombs that only killed one or two people, but the guys with the machine guns were able to gun down dozens of people.

00:12:27.000 So certainly that's scary.

00:12:30.000 I think that's where a lot of Americans, when it happened, the reason so many people were against it, I believe a majority is against it, is because you're like, great, you know, first of all, is it going to be another endless war?

00:12:39.000 And second of all, are we going to get a bunch of terrorist actions here?

00:12:42.000 I think if we did, I don't think support for the war goes up.

00:12:45.000 I think it goes down.

00:12:46.000 Oh, for sure.

00:12:48.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:12:49.000 I mean, it's just such a fuck. 0.99

00:12:52.000 I mean, the whole situation internationally has been so tense already with what's going on in Gaza, with what's going on in Ukraine. 0.99

00:13:03.000 And to add this to the pile, it's like, I mean, it genuinely feels like there's a real possibility that we might be entering World War III.

00:13:16.000 What would that look like?

00:13:18.000 I don't know.

00:13:18.000 Well, I never expected Iran to start attacking.

00:13:23.000 They launched bombs into UAE, Dubai.

00:13:27.000 I mean, where else?

00:13:28.000 I think they expected that, though, right?

00:13:30.000 I mean, it makes Iran look pretty isolated.

00:13:33.000 I mean, I will say, you know, I was totally, obviously, maybe not obviously, but very much on the left and was opposed to all the stuff Reagan was doing.

00:13:40.000 I remember even in the 80s.

00:13:42.000 But it's like he really did.

00:13:44.000 I'm not going to say he was the only reason.

00:13:46.000 There was obviously a bunch of weakening within.

00:13:48.000 But I mean, he really did push back against communism.

00:13:51.000 He challenged the entire foreign policy establishment on the basic view of just, you know, of just kind of keeping it, you know, keeping the communists where they were.

00:14:02.000 And instead, Reagan really pushed back against it and said, there's got to be regime change.

00:14:05.000 It sort of almost had a moral, certainly there's a defense buildup, but a moral argument.

00:14:09.000 And I think it had a big impact to bring down communism.

00:14:13.000 So I'm obviously have very mixed feelings about it.

00:14:18.000 The Iranian regime is just so evil and so awful that every time you see videos of people taking these courageous actions, you're like, somebody bring that regime down.

00:14:27.000 On the other hand, that country is pretty, the people of that country are pretty radical.

00:14:32.000 And the Shah in 1979, I just spent last night watching all the old 60 Minutes from the 70s. 0.54

00:14:36.000 They're amazing.

00:14:37.000 But the Shah was really modernizing the country. 0.92

00:14:40.000 There was a lot of wealth coming in.

00:14:41.000 There was a lot more inequality.

00:14:43.000 There was also a lot more state repression from his intelligence services.

00:14:48.000 But the country was full of radical Muslims who wanted that when all that instability, they wanted to revert back to a radical Islamist regime. 0.99

00:14:56.000 And that's still, now I've seen other estimates that say that the current regime is incredibly unpopular in Iran.

00:15:02.000 But how that works out, it's really hard to say.

00:15:05.000 But there is something, I caution my own, I talk back to my own anti-interventionist instincts when I think about Reagan just being like, you know, we're not going to do just containment strategy anymore.

00:15:15.000 We're actually going to talk back to communism because people deserve to be free.

00:15:20.000 And now, is everything better for, you know, is everything fine in Russia?

00:15:24.000 But I mean, communism was just awful, you know, just a totally soul-killing, you know, crushing, you know, a giant lie.

00:15:24.000 Maybe not.

00:15:32.000 I mean, it's awful totalitarianism.

00:15:34.000 So I think we have to kind of keep that in mind.

00:15:36.000 And especially when you're in a moment of just such incredible chaos like we're in now.

00:15:40.000 I told my students, I'm like, you get to live through one of the most interesting moments in history, certainly in the last 80 years, because the entire paradigm where the United States had these allies and everything's going to go through the Security Council and we're going to try to make it to the UN and there's got to get agreements and all this stuff, that's just gone.

00:15:57.000 I mean, it's just, it's gone to the part where they don't even, where you're kind of like, how are you, what's going to happen inside Iran?

00:16:02.000 They're like, that's not our concern.

00:16:04.000 We hope that there's an overthrow of the government, but they're not – we're not like going to necessarily commit to that.

00:16:09.000 Well, they're also calling on the people to rise up, which is – I mean look at what they did with the protesters.

00:16:18.000 I mean they killed thousands of people.

00:16:21.000 And look at Iran and Venezuela, they don't have internal, the opposition is not united.

00:16:26.000 There's not a united opposition with a united figure.

00:16:28.000 I mean, remember, it was so interesting to watch in 79 with these protests against the Shah were going on.

00:16:33.000 The left and the Islamists made an alliance in Iran.

00:16:37.000 Something really interesting topic I only started to explore right now.

00:16:41.000 But they made an alliance.

00:16:42.000 They'd be holding up, they'd be holding up the Ayatollah Khomeini pictures in the street.

00:16:45.000 They had their guy.

00:16:46.000 And the left was like, look, we're just going to go with this guy.

00:16:49.000 I think he was making promises to the left around allowing more liberalism.

00:16:54.000 And then they came in and just consolidated into this really hardline Islamist regime.

00:16:59.000 But they had a guy.

00:17:02.000 We don't have a guy in Venezuela.

00:17:04.000 We don't have a guy in Iran.

00:17:05.000 I don't know if there's anybody in Cuba, really.

00:17:08.000 And the older regime under the Biden, the open society people, the open society establishment, they had somebody for Venezuela, this Machado woman.

00:17:16.000 But Trump gets up there and he just goes, yeah, she doesn't have enough support.

00:17:19.000 So she's not with us.

00:17:20.000 Gone.

00:17:21.000 They recognize that they don't have, there's nobody with an opposition street cred that can come into power.

00:17:27.000 So I think they, and they know that.

00:17:29.000 They're not like unaware of that.

00:17:31.000 So I think some of the like, oh, they should rise up and whatever.

00:17:34.000 It's a little half-hearted.

00:17:36.000 I don't know that they believe that that's going to happen.

00:17:38.000 They don't seem to be offering them material support.

00:17:38.000 They're certainly not.

00:17:42.000 Right.

00:17:42.000 So it's just a symbolic gesture to talk about it.

00:17:47.000 Sounds like it.

00:17:48.000 And I mean, in this kind of the this beautiful collapse of communism, which occurred so peacefully with the Berlin Wall and the guard eventually just sort of like it's just in the vibes.

00:17:57.000 And the guards are just like, yeah, we're not guarding this wall anymore.

00:18:00.000 And it's just over, you know.

00:18:01.000 And it was just over.

00:18:02.000 And it was like it was kind of like a moral collapse.

00:18:04.000 I'm not so sure that they're going to get that in Iran.

00:18:07.000 Doesn't seem like it.

00:18:08.000 It seems like they've been preparing for this for a long time.

00:18:11.000 The Iranians? 0.99

00:18:12.000 Yeah.

00:18:13.000 They're dug in.

00:18:14.000 Now it's the sun, and he's just part of, he represents the, I was the IGRC, the security forces.

00:18:22.000 I mean, it's what you would do.

00:18:22.000 I mean, it's their guy.

00:18:23.000 It's rally around the flag.

00:18:24.000 It's classic.

00:18:25.000 What happens?

00:18:26.000 And so, but, you know, never, you never know.

00:18:29.000 I mean, these guys then might just negotiate more what the Trump administration wants.

00:18:33.000 And I think the Trump administration is like, we'll just keep killing your leaders until we get somebody in there that will make a deal with us.

00:18:40.000 I think that's how Trump thinks about it.

00:18:42.000 Really?

00:18:43.000 That's my best guess.

00:18:45.000 You're smiling.

00:18:46.000 Do you think this is?

00:18:47.000 Because it's funny because it's funny because it's so Joe, it's just like you just look at all the think tanks and all the white papers and the State Department and the planning and whatever.

00:18:57.000 And it's just like Trump's just, he's going to listen to Tucker.

00:19:00.000 He's going to listen to any, and he's going to decide what to do.

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00:20:02.000 Is that good?

00:20:04.000 I don't know if it's good.

00:20:05.000 I mean, we don't know yet.

00:20:07.000 I mean, I think part of it is, is it going to work?

00:20:09.000 Part of you go, is it moral?

00:20:11.000 And you're like, well, but does it work to have better outcomes?

00:20:14.000 I don't know.

00:20:15.000 We're in a realm of absolute chaos.

00:20:17.000 We're also in a realm where AI is going to be powering autonomous weapons, if not already.

00:20:23.000 I mean, that is going on.

00:20:25.000 That is so interesting, this thing with Anthropic and the DOD and what's happening there.

00:20:29.000 That is really interesting.

00:20:31.000 So initially, Anthropic was hesitant to allow them to use autonomous weapons, right?

00:20:36.000 I don't know the status of it, but you saw the OpenAI, the head of OpenAI Autonomous, she was the head of Autonomous Weapons, I think. 0.78

00:20:44.000 Don't give me exactly right, but she just quit like a couple of days ago on X, and it was just like a huge story.

00:20:49.000 So you have a bunch of you have a rift in between.

00:20:55.000 Now, I think Sam and Elon are both on board and want to keep working with the DOD, but it looks like Anthropic broke and then Hegset was like, well, but then we're going to punish you for this.

00:21:10.000 That's very consistent with a kind of nationalist vision, which is that, which the Trump administration has, which is that your security strategy, your economic strategy, your border strategy, it's all a single, your industrial strategy, it's all a single thing.

00:21:24.000 Your trade strategy, it's all a single thing.

00:21:27.000 And I think for Trump, it's just, you're either asserting power and using your leverage and demanding more, or you're engaged in managed decline.

00:21:35.000 You're just giving up.

00:21:36.000 And part of me, I'm of mixed minds on it because on the one hand, I'm with the kind of, I kind of go, let's invest at home.

00:21:43.000 We have Skid Row to clean up.

00:21:46.000 We should be focused on that, not on trying to do regime change or bombing other countries or creating other problems.

00:21:51.000 On the other hand, I think there's something right about defending the West.

00:21:56.000 I mean, defending Western civilization, defending our institutions, our norms, our liberal values.

00:22:03.000 And nobody's done that.

00:22:05.000 And we just had a guy in power that opened our borders, that kind of gave a blank check to Ukraine.

00:22:12.000 It seems like at a minimum with Trump, you have somebody that is taking responsibility in ways where Biden would be like, well, we're going to work with our allies.

00:22:21.000 And it was just all kind of like it was like it was all kind of going to be decided in this, you know, what Curtis Yarvin famously calls the cathedral, you know, just the single thing of the media and the think tanks and the academics.

00:22:34.000 And Trump was like, it's not working.

00:22:36.000 And the working class of this country elected me to show strength and to demand a better return on our investment in terms of protecting our allies for our people.

00:22:47.000 So that part of it, I think, is really overdue and really necessary, an assertion of why the West is special, why we need to defend the West.

00:22:56.000 Is bombing Iran and replacing the Khomeini with his son? 0.81

00:23:00.000 Mashat, is what's happening in Venezuela.

00:23:02.000 Is that the right approach to that?

00:23:04.000 I don't know.

00:23:05.000 But I think the system was failing.

00:23:07.000 I mean, the open society system, which is supposed to be this liberal, system of tolerance, it became intolerant.

00:23:14.000 It became totalitarian.

00:23:15.000 It created a censorship industrial complex.

00:23:17.000 They weaponized the intelligence communities.

00:23:20.000 We started getting ourselves into conflicts that was not clear why we were in them, including Venezuela.

00:23:26.000 I mean, sorry, including Ukraine.

00:23:28.000 I mean, with Ukraine, it's like that war only continues because we continue to arm it. 0.99

00:23:33.000 Like, if we stopped, if we just were like, let's just have the, just, you know, just cut a deal wherever the border is right now.

00:23:41.000 You're just like, that's where it's going to stop.

00:23:43.000 Then you can, I mean, I don't know, I'm not sure what's preventing that from Trump.

00:23:46.000 I think he's annoyed with Putin.

00:23:48.000 But yeah, I mean, my view is like, I don't see an interest in that war continuing.

00:23:53.000 I don't know how it's in the interest of the working of working class Americans or Americans.

00:23:57.000 And I have the same questions about Iran and Venezuela and Cuba.

00:24:01.000 But I think that is a totally different paradigm than the one that we had from 1945 to 2024.

00:24:06.000 Aaron Trevor Barrett, well, the idea of tolerance with the last administration, that seems just to be a narrative.

00:24:13.000 It seemed to be a political strategy of keeping the borders open to increase populations in blue states, raise the census, get more congressional seats, and then a path to citizenship where you'd have permanent voters.

00:24:26.000 That's what it seems like.

00:24:27.000 And then there's also a ton of Medicaid fraud that's wrapped up in that that we're now seeing.

00:24:33.000 Yeah, I think that's part of it.

00:24:35.000 I mean, the Times did a piece on why Biden left the borders open.

00:24:40.000 What was there?

00:24:41.000 It was a funny piece.

00:24:42.000 Like, there was this, it was, you know, part of it, he's so out of it, right?

00:24:46.000 Like, there were just, it was not clear.

00:24:48.000 Like, there wasn't clear, there was like a meeting where he was like, yeah, we're going to just do this thing.

00:24:52.000 They kind of concluded that.

00:24:53.000 I think Cecilia Munoz, who's one of the more moderate advocates and was in the Obama administration, I think she said something like, Biden just wanted to give the left, just felt like he wanted to give the left what they wanted.

00:25:04.000 And that's what, you know, the Soros think tanks and the, you know, the very progressive immigration groups have been advocating.

00:25:12.000 He did the same thing on climate, so it makes sense.

00:25:14.000 I know Elon talks a lot about how, oh, it's about importing voters and whatnot.

00:25:18.000 Maybe, but it's not even clear that that's a good strategy that's going to work.

00:25:23.000 Why not?

00:25:24.000 Well, because, first of all, we don't know that Latinos, like, why do we assume Latinos are all going to vote for Democrats?

00:25:32.000 Well, if you've got them all on Medicaid and Social Security.

00:25:36.000 The numbers there are, it's actually more complicated.

00:25:39.000 Europe is definitely the case that you have higher rates of crime and higher rates of social services among migrants. 0.99

00:25:45.000 Here are Latino migrants traditionally really thrive.

00:25:51.000 They do much better than mostly Muslim immigrants in Europe. 1.00

00:25:57.000 So I'm skeptical.

00:25:58.000 I mean, the other statistic that I learned from David Shore, who's like one of the top Democrat pollsters when he was talking to Ezra Klein after the 2024 elections, he was like, if all eligible voters had voted, Trump would have won by 3 percentage points rather than 1.5.

00:26:14.000 So I always think it's kind of funny because the Republicans are always trying to make it harder for people to vote.

00:26:19.000 But under that calculation anyway, and maybe it's just Trump.

00:26:22.000 Maybe other Republicans won't be able to get it.

00:26:23.000 But when you say harder for people to vote, what do you mean?

00:26:26.000 You mean mail-in voting?

00:26:27.000 Yeah, just the whole effort to.

00:26:28.000 But the problem is mail-in voting has always been a vector for fraud.

00:26:35.000 Maybe.

00:26:36.000 I don't know how much of it there is.

00:26:38.000 I've seen different things on it.

00:26:39.000 Back like decades, people have been talking about mail-in voting just being too open to fraud.

00:26:45.000 Well, maybe, but then the question is, does it really benefit?

00:26:48.000 I mean, in other words, if David Shore is right, if everybody who could vote had voted, Trump would have won basically by twice the margin.

00:26:57.000 Well, I don't know if that's necessarily true, but when I see laws like what California has where you're not allowed to show ID, there's only, I mean, I've tried, tried to find some sort of charitable way where that would make sense other than you want to open the door for fraud.

00:27:12.000 There's nothing.

00:27:14.000 This narrative that they say, oh, poor people don't have like, you see, Kamala Harris.

00:27:18.000 They don't have a Xerox machine.

00:27:18.000 I believe that.

00:27:20.000 No, but you ever see the thing?

00:27:21.000 I think it was a guy.

00:27:22.000 I don't know if he did it for free press.

00:27:23.000 A guy was going around interviewing.

00:27:26.000 Well, first he interviewed liberals at like, I think UC Berkeley.

00:27:28.000 And he was like, you know, do you think that you should have to have an ID to vote? 0.90

00:27:31.000 And they were like, no, because black people don't have IDs. 1.00

00:27:34.000 And like, that's just a very good idea. 0.90

00:27:35.000 And then he goes hearing that on NDA.

00:27:36.000 No, no, I know, of course, but they believe that.

00:27:38.000 Yeah.

00:27:38.000 I mean, but then the interview that saw that it's an incredible video because then he goes to like, I think he goes to Harlem or he goes to like a black neighborhood in New York and he was just asking black people, he's like, do you have an ID on you?

00:27:48.000 And it was like, everybody was like, yeah, like, what's the matter with you?

00:27:51.000 Well, it's also, we just got done with three years of you need an ID to prove that you have been vaccinated.

00:27:58.000 So you need to be able to have that to go to work, to get on a plane, to eat at a restaurant.

00:28:03.000 It didn't make any sense.

00:28:04.000 It was so immediately contradicting what had just gone down months earlier. 1.00

00:28:09.000 It's just stupid. 0.99

00:28:10.000 Well, yeah, that was about, that was because the left wanted to control people's behavior. 1.00

00:28:15.000 And on voting, the old, I know because when I talk to my progressive friends about it, you know, and family and friends, it's very much like, no, we can't put barriers in the way of voting because that's what they did during Jim Crow. 0.83

00:28:25.000 I mean, that's where it goes back to.

00:28:27.000 ID is not a barrier.

00:28:29.000 It's just an insurance that you're a citizen while you're voting.

00:28:32.000 And then they say there's really not much fraud.

00:28:34.000 They say there's very little fraud.

00:28:36.000 I'm just telling you what they say.

00:28:37.000 I'm just telling you.

00:28:37.000 I'm not saying I agree.

00:28:39.000 Progressives?

00:28:39.000 Progressive?

00:28:40.000 Do you believe that?

00:28:40.000 Yeah.

00:28:41.000 That's horseshit. 0.99

00:28:42.000 I think they believe it. 0.99

00:28:42.000 That's a horseshoe. 0.99

00:28:43.000 I'll put it that way.

00:28:44.000 Yes.

00:28:45.000 I think they just say it because that's the thing that everybody says.

00:28:49.000 I think it's a group thing thing.

00:28:50.000 I mean, I think if you sit down with any rational person and no one's watching, you know, there's no cameras on them, and you asked them, does that make any sense?

00:28:58.000 No one would say it makes any sense.

00:29:00.000 Most people in this country who are citizens have some form of ID or can get some form of ID.

00:29:05.000 And it's entirely reasonable to ask people to prove that you are who you are if you're voting for the president of the United States.

00:29:13.000 That seems pretty reasonable.

00:29:15.000 I find it totally reasonable, and I support it.

00:29:17.000 I'm just saying that if you make it, I'm just saying you may, the Republicans may, it may result in outcomes that are not the predictable ones that they think they'll get.

00:29:25.000 Just because Trump was, at least, and Trump is maybe a special case.

00:29:29.000 But I mean, he's able to turn out reluctant voters.

00:29:32.000 Like, he motivated people to vote.

00:29:34.000 Because people were fed up with what had gone on in the last four years.

00:29:37.000 And I think that open border was the biggest one.

00:29:41.000 I mean, it was one of the biggest ones because people just felt hopeless.

00:29:44.000 Like, this is crazy.

00:29:46.000 Like, what you're doing, you're letting in what's equivalent at least if you're just being charitable, it's 10 million people.

00:29:55.000 It was huge.

00:29:56.000 If you're just being conservative, it's 10 times Austin.

00:29:59.000 You let 10 Austins in in four years of people who you have no idea who they are.

00:30:06.000 Yeah, and Americans were on board with closing the borders, and then when it came time to actually asking all the, getting those folks to leave that came in, all the support disappeared, right?

00:30:16.000 Well, it's not asking them to leave.

00:30:18.000 It's showing up at Home Depot and just rounding people up and raiding places and going to restaurants and pulling people out of their houses.

00:30:25.000 I think people got very uncomfortable with the idea of militarized police wearing masks on the street.

00:30:31.000 And then when you find out that these guys have only been trained for seven weeks and they get a $50,000 signing bonus, and then you find out that a giant percentage of them are Latino, which is kind of crazy. 1.00

00:30:42.000 You know, like the two guys who shot that guy in Minnesota, they're both Latino. 0.99

00:30:46.000 And yeah, I mean, that's what you get when you have completely untrained, unprepared people.

00:30:51.000 Well, that whole thing like that. 0.99

00:30:52.000 The whole Minnesota thing with Alex Peretti is a complete cluster fuck. 0.96

00:30:56.000 I still have not seen verification of whether or not the narrative that makes sense is true. 0.98

00:31:04.000 But the narrative that makes sense was that there was an accidental discharge of his gun as they were pulling it away from him.

00:31:10.000 And then that led to them thinking that maybe he still had the gun on him because you're in the chaos of arresting someone.

00:31:16.000 Someone says he has a gun, a gun goes off, and then they shoot the guy.

00:31:22.000 I bet when they do the proper evaluation of it, they're going to find multiple mistakes by the law enforcement.

00:31:29.000 And then there was the thing with the woman who got shot where you have a guy who had almost been run over just a couple of weeks before and been dragged in his car.

00:31:37.000 The guy who shot her had been dragged by another vehicle.

00:31:41.000 I didn't see that.

00:31:42.000 I think he got dragged like 300 feet, too.

00:31:44.000 Something crazy.

00:31:46.000 So when a car is coming at him, you could imagine this guy's got some PTSD from that.

00:31:52.000 He should not have been.

00:31:54.000 No.

00:31:55.000 And also, Alex Perez. 1.00

00:31:55.000 He certainly shouldn't have said that fucking bitch after he shoots her in the face, too. 1.00

00:32:00.000 That's crazy, too. 1.00

00:32:01.000 Yeah, I mean, the reaction, just the heartlessness of the reaction to the cars was terrible, including by the administration.

00:32:08.000 That's probably why Christy Noam ended up having to go.

00:32:10.000 But then on the other side, these protests are organized.

00:32:13.000 They're organized and they're paid for, which is also something that people need to understand.

00:32:19.000 These are not organic protests.

00:32:20.000 It's not organic that it just happened to be taking place in the very same place where you found hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud, right?

00:32:28.000 This is one of the clearest, most obvious distractions you've ever seen In the public arena, like where you have these people who are being paid to protest.

00:32:40.000 They give them money to go out there and protest.

00:32:42.000 They give them signs.

00:32:43.000 They're organizing it.

00:32:44.000 They go signal groups.

00:32:46.000 They're doxing all these different ICE workers. 0.97

00:32:49.000 They find out what their license plates numbers are.

00:32:51.000 They find out where they're staying.

00:32:53.000 They go to their hotel.

00:32:54.000 The cops, the local cops are being told to stand down.

00:32:57.000 So you've got like this convergence of all these factors that lead to chaos.

00:33:04.000 And, you know, Mike Benz was talking about it.

00:33:08.000 He was essentially saying it's a mathematical thing and that if you have these things play out, you're going to have a certain amount.

00:33:15.000 It was Mike Benz, right?

00:33:16.000 That was saying that?

00:33:17.000 It was a certain amount of people that are, you're going to have incidences.

00:33:20.000 You're just playing it out over the numbers.

00:33:22.000 Certain amount of these protests.

00:33:25.000 You have organized protests.

00:33:26.000 You have untrained ICE agents.

00:33:28.000 You have a lot of chaos.

00:33:29.000 You have support for people screaming in the streets.

00:33:32.000 Someone gets shot.

00:33:33.000 And then it moves the needle.

00:33:33.000 Boom.

00:33:35.000 And this is calculated.

00:33:37.000 They want this to happen.

00:33:39.000 They want it to happen this way because then this kills all the support for people that, you know, were kind of on the fence whether or not I should be deporting all illegals.

00:33:49.000 Excuse me.

00:33:54.000 Whether they should just go after violent criminals.

00:33:54.000 Excuse me.

00:33:57.000 And then there's these weird narratives like, oh, only 14% are violent criminals that have been arrested.

00:34:04.000 But 60% are criminals.

00:34:06.000 60% of the people plus were criminals.

00:34:10.000 And by what definition, violent criminals?

00:34:13.000 Like, what do you, is it okay if they just come in here and rip people off?

00:34:18.000 Like, are you fine with that?

00:34:19.000 It's just like the violent ones we need to get rid of?

00:34:22.000 Like.

00:34:23.000 I think they didn't.

00:34:24.000 Yeah, they did a fairly poor job of it.

00:34:26.000 Like, why were they focused on Minneapolis?

00:34:30.000 I think most people don't understand how radical the left in Minneapolis is because you think it's a Midwestern place, but it's actually got a long radical left tradition.

00:34:37.000 Yeah.

00:34:38.000 And as you were saying, I mean, Alex Predty, he should have been arrested several days before when he had a gun on him and got into an altercation with the police.

00:34:46.000 They should have arrested him then, and then they could have, the judge could have done a lot of different things, but they could have taken away his gun.

00:34:50.000 They could have put a restraining order on him so that next time he showed up and people would know to look for him, then he would have been kept out of the area.

00:34:57.000 Do you know the story about the gun that he was carrying?

00:35:00.000 No.

00:35:01.000 Okay, so he's carrying a gun called a SIG P320, which is notorious for accidental discharges.

00:35:08.000 I mean, there's lawsuits all over the place.

00:35:10.000 There's videos of cops in precincts bending over to pick something up, and the gun goes off in his holster.

00:35:17.000 There's a ton of these.

00:35:19.000 So I don't know if this is completely accurate because this is obviously the fog of chaos of these type of altercations and situations.

00:35:27.000 There's a video that many people have reviewed, and it's their conclusion that if you watch the video, when one of the ICE officers removes his gun, even though he does not have his finger on the trigger, has his hand on the gun and his fingers on the slide.

00:35:43.000 As he's moving off, it appears the gun goes off.

00:35:47.000 Now, they've zoomed in on it and shown that it does look like the gun's going off, and it does correspond with the sound of a gunshot.

00:35:56.000 It's just hard to see.

00:35:57.000 Hard to know.

00:35:58.000 You hear a gunshot in the video.

00:35:59.000 Yes, but I don't know if it's legitimate.

00:36:01.000 It's hard to know.

00:36:02.000 But if it was any other gun, like, say if it was a Glock, I would say that doesn't make any sense.

00:36:06.000 His fingers aren't on the trigger, it's not going to go off.

00:36:08.000 But that gun is notorious for going off.

00:36:11.000 There's a guy online that he shows a video where he takes the gun and he manipulates the slide and it goes off.

00:36:20.000 And it goes off without nothing touching the trigger.

00:36:23.000 No one's pulling on it.

00:36:25.000 It's just if you have the other problem is people alter guns.

00:36:30.000 So the issue with the SIG was they had, I believe up to 2017, they had a lighter trigger.

00:36:30.000 Okay.

00:36:40.000 And this lighter trigger, if the gun was dropped or if something happened to it, it was going off.

00:36:45.000 And they determined the gun does not have an internal safety like some other guns do.

00:36:50.000 I'm not an expert, so I don't know exactly what the trigger mechanism is.

00:36:55.000 But my understanding is that the trigger mechanism is different than their other guns.

00:36:59.000 Like they have another gun that's notoriously reliable.

00:37:01.000 It's a SIG P365.

00:37:04.000 You could drop that gun.

00:37:05.000 It's not going to go off.

00:37:06.000 It's not known for accidental discharge.

00:37:08.000 But the 320 is known.

00:37:09.000 And there's tons of videos of people demonstrating this online.

00:37:13.000 There's a video where they're on a range and a gun goes off in a guy's holster. 0.99

00:37:18.000 And the range instructor says, What the fuck just happened? 0.97

00:37:22.000 And this guy points to this, you know, the gun that went off and he said, is that a SIG? 1.00

00:37:28.000 And he goes, yeah, he goes, get that fucking thing off the range. 0.99

00:37:32.000 So it's that notorious. 0.99

00:37:33.000 This one particular model. 0.98

00:37:36.000 And it just happened to be the one particular model that Alex Predty was carrying, which is fucking crazy. 0.96

00:37:42.000 Well, his behavior was really reckless. 0.54

00:37:45.000 It's really hard for people to hold two ideas in their mind at the same time.

00:37:48.000 Like, ICE messed that up clearly.

00:37:52.000 And Alex Predty, I mean, we see the earlier video, you know, where he kicks out the taillight of the ICE vehicle.

00:37:57.000 And he's, I mean, he's got a gun in the waistband of his jacket.

00:37:57.000 Right.

00:38:00.000 It's hidden by the jacket.

00:38:01.000 He gets into this altercation with the police.

00:38:03.000 I mean, when I posted about it, I didn't say this, but a lot of the responses were suicide by cop.

00:38:09.000 People were like, suicide by cop.

00:38:11.000 I mean, and I'm not making that claim, but I mean, his behavior was, I mean, the recklessness of the gun choice mirrors the recklessness of his behavior in those instances.

00:38:21.000 And I heard people being like, oh, well, he, you know, he was just defending that poor woman.

00:38:25.000 There was a police officer engaged in an arrest of a person, and Alex Predi intervened in that.

00:38:30.000 I mean, I think you could mess around with that.

00:38:31.000 It was a little, I don't know if it was an arrest.

00:38:34.000 The police officer shoved this woman. 1.00

00:38:37.000 Yeah, he was in an altercation with somebody.

00:38:40.000 You don't go, in other words, people go, oh, you got to put yourself in.

00:38:43.000 What do you think you're like, what do you think is going on here?

00:38:45.000 But he should put himself in between that.

00:38:47.000 No.

00:38:48.000 The way the ICE officer wasn't a police officer, right?

00:38:51.000 It's an ICE officer.

00:38:51.000 Do you call them police?

00:38:53.000 The way the ICE officer reacted to the woman, that bothered me.

00:38:58.000 Like he just shoved this lady, like, stepped forward and fully shoved her.

00:39:03.000 That's when Alex Predty gets involved.

00:39:05.000 And then Pepper Spray comes out, and then...

00:39:07.000 And Alex Prady should have absolutely filmed that.

00:39:10.000 Should have filmed the whole thing.

00:39:12.000 That's exactly what I'm saying.

00:39:12.000 Well, other people were filming it.

00:39:14.000 It was clear.

00:39:14.000 There's cameras all over the place.

00:39:15.000 But don't from multiple angles.

00:39:17.000 But it's like – I just don't think that's appropriate behavior to go and get – that's not the tradition of like – I mean I think there's a nonviolent left-wing tradition that's actually quite beautiful and spiritual.

00:39:31.000 And like Thoreau and Gandhi and King, that's not what was going on in Minneapolis.

00:39:37.000 Well, that's not at all what's going on.

00:39:38.000 This is a part of the problem with these things being organized, right?

00:39:41.000 Organized, paid protests, and also people being radicalized by narratives.

00:39:46.000 Then, of course, very different than what was going on with the civil rights movement.

00:39:51.000 You have social media.

00:39:53.000 So people are radically pushed in one direction or another, and it's not clear whether or not that's organic.

00:40:00.000 It's not clear, is this the voice of the people?

00:40:03.000 Or is this bot farms that are pushing things in one direction or another?

00:40:08.000 Is it, I mean, there's a lot of people that I cautiously watch their posts on X where I know that they're AI.

00:40:17.000 I know it's AI.

00:40:18.000 I can just tell by the way they're writing.

00:40:20.000 There's so much AI slop on X right now.

00:40:20.000 It's radical now.

00:40:22.000 It's weird.

00:40:24.000 It's weird because it does muddy the water and it does fuck with discourse, but it also radicalizes people one way or the other.

00:40:32.000 It radicalizes people towards the right, radicalizes people towards the left.

00:40:36.000 It's not good.

00:40:37.000 And I think this guy, whatever his mental health struggles were, they appeared to exist.

00:40:42.000 It seems like he was a troubled guy already. 0.99

00:40:45.000 So a thing comes along that defines them, a cause that they're going to stand up for and fight for because their life's probably a fucking mess and their mind is probably a mess. 0.99

00:40:56.000 And they look at this, they look at it like it's this black and white binary situation good guys and bad guys and let's fuck all these fascists and he's kicking taillights and you know and getting involved in pushing matches with ICE agents. 0.99

00:41:10.000 It's like that's crazy. 0.99

00:41:12.000 Like all that stuff can should and can get you arrested.

00:41:15.000 Yeah, I mean, I think on the organized issue, remember like the civil rights movement was really well organized in terms of people weren't being paid for it.

00:41:24.000 It wasn't being promoted on social media.

00:41:25.000 It wasn't people's job.

00:41:27.000 There are people in America right now that are unemployed that are paid protesters for a living.

00:41:32.000 Oh, I mean, that's the entire left-wing NGO sector, is basically that.

00:41:36.000 Right.

00:41:37.000 I mean, that's like that.

00:41:37.000 Yeah.

00:41:38.000 We saw it with, I see it at the level of San Francisco and for homelessness.

00:41:40.000 They just go and you work at a government-funded or Soros-funded NGO, and then you do all that civil disobedience stuff on your free time.

00:41:49.000 But I just think, I think that you were right when you're saying, like, because I think it's the problem is not the organization.

00:41:55.000 The problem is that the organization in Minneapolis had a goal of causing exactly what occurred.

00:42:01.000 The organization around the civil rights movement was to desegregate soda counters.

00:42:05.000 Yes.

00:42:06.000 And so one of them was about actually, I mean, the other thing is that pull back a little bit further.

00:42:12.000 Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement was about affirming our liberal democratic Western civilization.

00:42:18.000 Black people wanted to be a part of it.

00:42:20.000 This stuff where you're like, we want to open the border and defund the police and basically start attacking all of these institutions of liberal democratic civilization.

00:42:31.000 That's different.

00:42:32.000 That's a radicalized left.

00:42:34.000 It's what's fundamentally different.

00:42:37.000 He defines it best as suicidal empathy.

00:42:39.000 I don't agree with Gad on that.

00:42:41.000 No, you don't think it's suicidal empathy without anything.

00:42:43.000 I don't think it's either suicidal or empathic.

00:42:46.000 Because empathy is, empathy is like he applies that to a lot of progressive ideas, not just the immigration thing.

00:42:53.000 I don't think he necessarily, I think it was actually long before the immigration thing that he was talking about, it's suicidal empathy.

00:43:00.000 The idea being that you need the rule of law to have a safe and peaceful society.

00:43:04.000 Yes, that part's true.

00:43:06.000 That part's true.

00:43:06.000 Yeah, you need no violence.

00:43:09.000 You need no crime. 0.75

00:43:10.000 And when you're taking criminals and just releasing them from jail and you have no cash bail and you're doing all these things, if you want to put on the fucking tinfoil hat, you would do that because you want chaos, because you want chaos so you can have more rules and tighten down on people and have more control over the civilization. 0.72

00:43:28.000 I mean, I think in that, I mean, I think like it's not empathic to allow more violent crime.

00:43:35.000 Like, I don't think that's empathy towards victims.

00:43:37.000 So I don't think, I wouldn't call it empathy.

00:43:39.000 And not only that, but like when you look at like who these folks are, and I spent a lot of time looking at them and was one of them, they hate Western civilization.

00:43:48.000 They hate the United States of America.

00:43:50.000 They hate capitalism.

00:43:51.000 Like it's an anti-civilization thing that's motivating it.

00:43:55.000 And that's not to say that like MSNBC watchers don't feel, oh, I feel bad for that person.

00:44:00.000 But I mean, I always, you know, it's like the people I hear complaining about ICE, they don't know any illegal immigrants.

00:44:07.000 They've never talked to them other than maybe their server or that, you know, but they don't even really talk to their gardeners or their or their, you know, their maids.

00:44:15.000 It's like the idea that they have empathy implies a deep understanding of someone's situation.

00:44:22.000 And so I think it's a misdescription of empathy.

00:44:25.000 I think in some ways it's more quite the opposite of that, that they're actually not showing empathy for all the people that are hurt by their policies, whether it's open borders or enabling addiction or euthanizing poor and mentally ill people in Canada or transing kids.

00:44:41.000 I don't think that those things are empathic.

00:44:44.000 And the person that's doing them, I don't think, is suicidal.

00:44:47.000 If anything, they're actually quite full of themselves and quite arrogant about what they're doing.

00:44:52.000 I mean, I use the word pathological altruism in San Francisco, and I say it's close to Monkhausen syndrome by proxy.

00:45:00.000 Maybe it is Monkhausen's syndrome by proxy, but I don't think it's, I worry about affirming, because I think that's how progressives go.

00:45:07.000 They go, oh, well, if the homeless are worse off, that's just because we care so much.

00:45:12.000 I just don't think that's the case. 0.55

00:45:13.000 Well, that's the homeless thing is nuts because the homeless thing is just a scam.

00:45:18.000 And we know that basically because of California.

00:45:21.000 Like California, what's happened with the whole homeless budget is so insane.

00:45:27.000 And that they vetoed audits of these budgets.

00:45:31.000 There's been $24 billion spent.

00:45:33.000 No one knows where it went.

00:45:35.000 There's no accountability.

00:45:36.000 And then the homeless situation increases.

00:45:39.000 Well, that's why.

00:45:40.000 I mean, remember, it's like, it's funny.

00:45:41.000 Like, my students just did a paper.

00:45:43.000 We have something, we've been working on it too, like the Canadian Euthanasia Program.

00:45:47.000 And it's like every year the numbers just keep going up and up.

00:45:50.000 And it reminds me of when you interview homeless service providers in San Francisco, they'll be like, yeah, no, we're doing an amazing job.

00:45:56.000 Every year we serve more and more people.

00:45:58.000 It's like, right, you have the wrong incentives.

00:46:02.000 You have an incentive to serve to incentive to create homelessness, and that's what they've done.

00:46:07.000 Well, if you get more money, if you have more homeless, your incentive is now not to eliminate homelessness because that's your job.

00:46:13.000 Right.

00:46:14.000 That's how you make all your money.

00:46:15.000 When I first was alerted to that, I was like, I can't believe this is real.

00:46:19.000 Like, when you find out the amount of money that's involved in homelessness, like that they spent $24 billion.

00:46:27.000 Okay, where'd that go?

00:46:29.000 And then there's no accountability?

00:46:31.000 Okay.

00:46:31.000 There's no fraud?

00:46:32.000 You're saying there's no fraud?

00:46:34.000 Zero?

00:46:34.000 Well, I wish there was fraud.

00:46:36.000 I mean, somebody was sort of like, can we expose, you know, like Nick Shirley exposed the daycare is not doing anything in Minnesota.

00:46:42.000 I was like, I wish the homeless service providers weren't doing anything.

00:46:46.000 If they were stealing the money, then there'd be a lot less homelessness.

00:46:49.000 Well, so you think they're actually using the money to create homelessness?

00:46:54.000 Yeah.

00:46:54.000 Oh, yeah.

00:46:55.000 I mean, think about like, so San Francisco was like between $100,000 and $120,000 a year per homeless person.

00:47:01.000 I think LA at a bargain of something more like $25,000.

00:47:05.000 That's just San Francisco.

00:47:06.000 That doesn't count the $24 billion that California gave.

00:47:11.000 So that money's going to single-resident occupancy hotel owners.

00:47:16.000 It's going to nonprofit service providers who are just bringing food and, you know, alcohol and drug paraphernalia to make it easier for people to do drugs and overdose and live in tents on the street.

00:47:29.000 It's very expensive to kill that many people that way.

00:47:32.000 That's what San Francisco has proven.

00:47:34.000 Right, but it's really about the amount of people where that's their industry.

00:47:39.000 That there is an industry in taking care of the homeless situation and addressing the homeless situation.

00:47:46.000 And, you know, Koleon Noir, when he was on the podcast, he was explaining to me that he went to San Francisco and he was like, why is it so bad up here?

00:47:53.000 Do they need money?

00:47:54.000 He's like, no, no, no.

00:47:55.000 This guy who's a lawyer was explaining it to him.

00:47:57.000 He's a lawyer as well.

00:47:58.000 Like, no, no, no, these people are getting money to deal with the homeless situation.

00:47:58.000 He was explaining it to him.

00:48:03.000 And some of them are making quarter billion dollars a year and more, which is just nuts.

00:48:08.000 And then it's not getting better.

00:48:10.000 It's only getting worse.

00:48:11.000 And yet they still keep getting that money.

00:48:14.000 So it's like there's zero incentive to make it better.

00:48:17.000 There's only an incentive to make it worse.

00:48:19.000 And then when you have no accountability, so there's no auditing of the money. 0.99

00:48:23.000 $24 billion is a lot of fucking money. 0.98

00:48:26.000 So who's getting greased up? 0.99

00:48:28.000 Where's that money going?

00:48:29.000 Mostly it's into the temporary, what they call, they call it permanent.

00:48:33.000 It's a propaganda word.

00:48:34.000 Propaganda.

00:48:35.000 It's a permanent supportive housing.

00:48:37.000 It's neither permanent nor supportive.

00:48:39.000 It's often warehousing addicts where they die.

00:48:42.000 I mean, we know that they die at very high levels in those little, this is a little crummy, you know, single-resident occupancy rooms.

00:48:47.000 They bought a lot of motels that were low-income, you know, low, you know, cheap motels, converting them, having, but they don't really, there's no, I mean, all that money should have gone into a centralized addiction and psychiatric care system.

00:49:02.000 Cal psych is what it should have been.

00:49:03.000 And instead, it's just, it's just kind of, yeah, it's just basically incentivizing people to live on the streets and use hard drugs and die in overdose.

00:49:12.000 Well, it's just so crazy.

00:49:13.000 I mean, if you wanted to make it better, you would incentivize them and pay them based on the amount of people that are no longer homeless.

00:49:19.000 Right.

00:49:20.000 But then the problem with that is, well, you're eventually going to fix it all and then your business is going to go away.

00:49:20.000 But they don't do that.

00:49:25.000 Right.

00:49:26.000 And that's all happening.

00:49:28.000 I think it's all happening unconsciously.

00:49:30.000 Like there's no room.

00:49:31.000 There's no like, you know, secret room where they're rubbing their hands and being like, oh, that we're going to make a lot of money this way.

00:49:36.000 It's just, you know, when you interview them, it's a very basic view.

00:49:40.000 You know, it's just these people are victims.

00:49:42.000 They're victims of white supremacy and capitalism.

00:49:45.000 And to victims, everything should be given and nothing required.

00:49:48.000 Well, I think that's a nice narrative, but I think once you start getting monthly paychecks from the homeless industrial complex, I think your incentive is to keep this party going.

00:49:59.000 Well, sure, but that's your job.

00:50:01.000 But they think it's good.

00:50:02.000 I mean, they go, this shows how good we're doing, that we got a bigger budget this year.

00:50:05.000 And that's how they rationalize it.

00:50:08.000 Yeah.

00:50:10.000 Yeah.

00:50:11.000 I mean, it's a sign of a very sick society.

00:50:14.000 Hence the title of your book, San Francisco, Sicko, which is a great title. 0.89

00:50:18.000 I mean, it's a sick place.

00:50:20.000 And it was one of my favorite cities. 0.59

00:50:23.000 It was an amazing city.

00:50:25.000 Well, California filmed my Netflix special there in 2016.

00:50:28.000 So, in just the amount of time, in 10 years, it's completely fallen apart.

00:50:32.000 When I was there in 2016, it was great.

00:50:35.000 I mean, there was always a lot of homeless people there, but you have that in any liberal city.

00:50:39.000 But it was never an epidemic. 0.76

00:50:40.000 It was never like tents everywhere and shit on the streets. 0.68

00:50:44.000 That wasn't the case. 0.87

00:50:45.000 It was just, you know, it was a liberal city, a progressive liberal city, but it was cool.

00:50:50.000 There was a lot of outdoor music.

00:50:53.000 It was fun.

00:50:54.000 It was a great place to go to restaurants and people walked around.

00:50:58.000 It was a great city filled with intelligent, interesting, open-minded people.

00:51:03.000 Man, I lived there when I was a little kid.

00:51:05.000 I was there during the Vietnam War.

00:51:06.000 From age seven to 11, I lived in San Francisco.

00:51:10.000 It's a little bit better now.

00:51:11.000 They've had a new mayor.

00:51:12.000 Yeah, a little bit.

00:51:13.000 I mean, I want to acknowledge, I can't lie about it.

00:51:16.000 It's a little bit better.

00:51:17.000 I agree.

00:51:18.000 I interview a lot of people still about what's going on.

00:51:21.000 It's still there.

00:51:22.000 But did you see what happened with the mayor?

00:51:24.000 With his security guard?

00:51:25.000 Yeah.

00:51:25.000 Got pulled down.

00:51:26.000 First of all, security guard for sure. 0.99

00:51:28.000 He needs to learn some fucking jiu-jitsu. 0.99

00:51:30.000 The way he let that guy grab him, he didn't pummel. 0.99

00:51:33.000 He looked like he had no understanding of what to do when that guy grabbed his body.

00:51:33.000 He didn't do anything.

00:51:38.000 Like, how is he a security guard?

00:51:40.000 That's crazy.

00:51:41.000 How can you be a security for the mayor if you literally don't know what to do in a clinch?

00:51:45.000 I thought he looked like he didn't really see the guy as a threat or something. 0.85

00:51:48.000 Like, maybe he thought he was just crazy.

00:51:50.000 Even if I didn't see a guy as a threat, if a guy grabs me like that, I'm not going to let him get that position on me. 0.94

00:51:58.000 Apparently, cut his back of his head and banged him on the ground. 1.00

00:52:01.000 He body slammed him onto the fucking concrete. 0.99

00:52:04.000 Kind of a metaphor for the whole situation. 1.00

00:52:05.000 He just walks away.

00:52:07.000 And he walked away like it was nothing.

00:52:09.000 Like he walked away, he didn't run.

00:52:11.000 You didn't see though, because I saw that video and I couldn't tell if the mayor actually saw what was happening.

00:52:15.000 100%.

00:52:15.000 He seemed like he was going, he was looking that way.

00:52:17.000 No, he was here when they started physically struggling with each other.

00:52:23.000 And then when they're struggling with each other, he walks off.

00:52:26.000 And then the guy gets body slammed.

00:52:27.000 It was the weirdest video to watch.

00:52:29.000 Yeah, both because they both seem so nonchalant.

00:52:31.000 Yeah, as a metaphor for the city.

00:52:31.000 They both see.

00:52:33.000 So this is a different angle.

00:52:34.000 The mayor actually is running off to get help.

00:52:36.000 Oh, he is.

00:52:36.000 Okay.

00:52:37.000 Running off?

00:52:37.000 Yeah, let me refresh this real quick.

00:52:39.000 When was it?

00:52:39.000 Yeah.

00:52:40.000 Show me off.

00:52:41.000 I'm getting so there's the mayor right there.

00:52:44.000 Okay.

00:52:45.000 He pushes this guy here in a second.

00:52:47.000 The mayor sort of, as soon as he gets to the sidewalk, takes off.

00:52:51.000 So why are they hanging out with this guy in the first place?

00:52:54.000 That looks like they're in campaign. 0.99

00:52:55.000 Oh, so the security guard started it, and he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. 0.99

00:53:00.000 And there's the mayor over here. 0.98

00:53:01.000 Okay. 1.00

00:53:02.000 Oh, look at his shitty tables. 0.99

00:53:04.000 Much better video. 0.99

00:53:05.000 And the other guy's a lot stronger than him. 0.99

00:53:07.000 So the mayor fucks off. 0.99

00:53:09.000 Hold on. 0.99

00:53:10.000 He starts running right.

00:53:11.000 He seems relaxed.

00:53:12.000 Okay.

00:53:13.000 Yeah, he did start walking slowly and then starts that guy started it all.

00:53:21.000 He pushed that guy.

00:53:23.000 If you're a security guy, the last thing you want to do when there's one of you and two of those other guys is Deal with a situation that way where you push a guy.

00:53:32.000 I'm I have to say it's so interesting you said I'm always surprised when I see them do like.

00:53:36.000 That was the same thing that happened with the pretty we were just talking about.

00:53:39.000 Don't you think this guy's probably armed too, I mean, but also he shouldn't have pushed that guy that way. 1.00

00:53:48.000 I mean, the whole thing is fucking stupid. 1.00

00:53:49.000 Look at the, look at the chaos. 1.00

00:53:50.000 There's somebody else just running around, another homeless person or something. 1.00

00:53:54.000 Yeah yeah, the other guy's probably talking shit. 0.99

00:53:56.000 I bet that guy's funny. 1.00

00:53:57.000 I bet he's the guy with a big coat on.

00:54:01.000 I mean, I don't, for the life of me, none of it makes sense, right?

00:54:06.000 None of it makes sense.

00:54:07.000 The the, the mayor, walking off casually and then eventually running.

00:54:11.000 It doesn't make sense.

00:54:12.000 The security guy just walked up to those guys and pushed him.

00:54:15.000 When you're details to take care of the mayor, you should be escorting him around that and getting him away from any potential trouble, like the brazenness of just walking up and pushing that guy where you don't know how to fight at all.

00:54:28.000 It's very clear when you watch the way they grappled with each other, he doesn't know what he's doing.

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00:55:10.000 Seems like we're having a lot of security problems in our society right now.

00:55:14.000 It's wild right, I can't believe the pushing is.

00:55:17.000 I mean, that's not even the pretty thing like why pushing?

00:55:19.000 Is that like a?

00:55:20.000 Is that like an important law enforcement technique?

00:55:22.000 I mean, what is that?

00:55:23.000 Well, not only that, he pushed a small woman. 0.94

00:55:26.000 The the ice guy just completely, just full-on shoves this small woman, which means he was emotionally out of control first.

00:55:33.000 Right, that means that he was angry.

00:55:36.000 These guys are not Like special forces guys.

00:55:38.000 They're not well trained.

00:55:39.000 These guys are seven weeks now.

00:55:42.000 Seven weeks, and a lot of them are financially incentivized.

00:55:44.000 Because if you can get $50,000, if you're in debt and then you could take this job on, I don't, when they get the $50,000, how long do they have to stay on the job for to have that money, to have that signing bonus?

00:55:57.000 Or is it one of those things where you get the $50,000 as a signing bonus, but you pay it like a record deal type deal where it's not really your money?

00:56:06.000 You have to make it up later.

00:56:07.000 I imagine.

00:56:08.000 But still, if you can get $50,000, there's a lot of people that'll take that job.

00:56:13.000 Yeah.

00:56:14.000 They're just a bunch of bad choices made by this administration on that one.

00:56:20.000 Someone's read it, comments saying they have no personal experience, but they've heard that it's 50K over four years if you're in good standing at the end of those four years.

00:56:29.000 Right.

00:56:30.000 Oh, so you only get it after four years.

00:56:32.000 But that might not add sense.

00:56:33.000 Right.

00:56:33.000 But for some people that have no job opportunities and nothing on the horizon, that $50,000 looks like, look, it's an extra $25K a year or an extra $25K for four years?

00:56:48.000 For $50,000 for $50.

00:56:49.000 Another person says that's incorrect.

00:56:50.000 It's broken in 10 payments, once in 90 days, then once every year for four more years.

00:56:54.000 Anyway, it's broken out.

00:56:55.000 But either way, it's $50,000 that you would not have been able to make ordinarily.

00:57:00.000 I mean, we had police shortages before 2020.

00:57:03.000 We had a bunch of police shortages after that, mostly by police officers who were just felt mistreated by the society and by their local mayors who said that they were evil.

00:57:12.000 Well, didn't a lot of cops resign when Adam Donnie got elected?

00:57:15.000 Oh, I'm sure.

00:57:16.000 And then a bunch of police officers were driven out during COVID.

00:57:20.000 So that was already our security forces have been, you know, and they were just people underestimate how important it is to feel like important in your job and respected.

00:57:32.000 And it's not just about the money because they would be offering more money.

00:57:34.000 But I think a lot of people are like, oh, no, I don't want to be in a job where people are spitting at me or throwing urine and not just a job where your life is on the line.

00:57:41.000 Yeah, your life is already on the line and then you're mistreated by the wider society, which actually creates additional risks, you know, as this chaos in Minneapolis shows.

00:57:50.000 So yeah, it's just people want to believe that they're doing something that is appreciated by the community.

00:57:56.000 And so when the community decides that they're against policing, your civilization is pretty far gone.

00:58:00.000 Right, but this is the difference between policing and this ICE thing.

00:58:03.000 The ICE thing is a different thing, right?

00:58:05.000 They're looking at it differently.

00:58:06.000 It's not like you're watching a violent altercation take place.

00:58:09.000 The police show up and people are spitting on them.

00:58:11.000 Like you're trying to break up a violent crime.

00:58:13.000 This is different.

00:58:14.000 They're looking at it like in the progressive narrative is like no one's illegal on stolen land and we need to have open borders and illegals or immigrants rather are the foundation of this country and you hear all that those narratives.

00:58:30.000 The president and the administration, they wanted to pick a fight, obviously, with this left-wing, with activists in this left-wing city.

00:58:35.000 Thought it would redound to their benefit to show how crazy the left was and it backfired on them.

00:58:40.000 Well, I think they wanted to do something about the amount of illegal fraud that was just recently exposed in Minneapolis.

00:58:47.000 I don't know that that's, but you wouldn't do it with ICE raids, though.

00:58:51.000 Well, it's illegal immigrants. 1.00

00:58:53.000 If you have illegal immigrants that are responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars in fraud, and you know at least some of them are illegal, it seems rational that you would send ICE in to find out who's illegal and who's not and put a stop to some of it. 0.93

00:59:05.000 And there's also this nationwide focus on this one place because of the Nick Shirley videos.

00:59:11.000 Yeah, though I think that the motivate, my understanding is that the motivation was to motivate people that are here illegally to self-deport. 0.94

00:59:11.000 Yeah. 0.94

00:59:21.000 And so that that's the main part of the strategy is this show of force.

00:59:24.000 Because of course it's they wanted the publicity.

00:59:26.000 They wanted people to be scared and self-deport.

00:59:28.000 They claim that 1.

00:59:30.000 I think 3 million people self-deported or 1.4 and then another 400,000 or 600,000 deported through the normal channels.

00:59:38.000 And apparently they're just limited to how many people they can actually deport through the normal channels, but people can self-deport.

00:59:43.000 They can just go.

00:59:45.000 Because of course there's this thing called e-verify where you just have the employers have to prove that everybody you're employing is here legally and they don't want to do that.

00:59:53.000 The Trump administration doesn't want to do that because they'll upset in particular, like the agricultural lobby, but other construction who depend on.

01:00:01.000 So it's a, it's a funny, it's not great, I don't know.

01:00:04.000 I'm not saying that there's that.

01:00:06.000 I have the perfect you know answer to the other one.

01:00:08.000 But obviously, like politically, the president doesn't feel like they can do e-verify and maintain support from the business community for his political agenda.

01:00:17.000 So you end up.

01:00:18.000 But you end up with a kind of underclass that's here illegally but that's protected because they're working in a sector that the president and the administration wants to protect. 0.88

01:00:27.000 But then you're also self-deporting people.

01:00:29.000 I'm not sure exactly how they're thinking about it, but that appears to be what the heart of their goal is is well, this was always what a lot of people on the left back in the day would say that illegal immigrants was.

01:00:43.000 This was like a KOCH Brothers thing, this was like a right-wing thing that they wanted this for, for exactly what you just described, and that this is not a left-wing progressive idea, and that what it would do is would lower the wages for the lower class and the middle class of this country, and it would be bad for the citizens.

01:01:02.000 And so you don't want unchecked illegal immigration.

01:01:05.000 Unchecked illegal immigration would just be for the right because they're the ones who own these massive corporations that are profiting off of illegal labor. 0.95

01:01:12.000 They don't have to pay them benefits.

01:01:13.000 They don't have to pay them health care, any of the things that are, you know, that cost money.

01:01:19.000 Yeah, I mean, the left was always balancing a sort of open society.

01:01:24.000 You know, they wanted, the Soros Foundation always wanted to have a free movement of people.

01:01:28.000 That was sort of their view of part why the Holocaust occurred is that you couldn't move people, you know, or at least the persecutions, you couldn't move people as easily.

01:01:36.000 But then you had the working class, you know, who were negatively affected by bringing in migrants who would push down wages and unions who are a big part of the Democratic Party. 0.52

01:01:44.000 So the Democrats were sort of divided on it for a while, but they managed it.

01:01:48.000 And Hillary and Obama would sort of, if you look at when they were competing in 2008, they were very carefully, like there was a whole thing around like driver's licenses, whether she would give them or not.

01:01:59.000 And Obama accused Hillary of kind of playing both sides of it, you know, typical thing. 1.00

01:02:04.000 But they also both spoke out strongly against mass migration.

01:02:08.000 Fast forward 10 years, you know, fast forward much more than that.

01:02:11.000 It was at 16 years into today, and now you've got a much more working class Republican Party who's unified around keeping the borders closed and restricting the supply of low-income, unskilled workers.

01:02:23.000 Because, I mean, it's just obvious.

01:02:25.000 I mean, it was really weird to watch people that are always defending supply and demand and economics and economic policy then say, oh, no, but having open borders and having all these working class people come in is going to have no impact on wages when obviously it would. 0.99

01:02:39.000 And I think that's now, that's also now gone.

01:02:42.000 I think that's another thing that's just Trump has just changed.

01:02:44.000 I don't think you're going to see Democrats going back to advocating that kind of mass migration again.

01:02:49.000 Right.

01:02:50.000 But you could see a world where they would push back against what has happened, what they would say the barbaric nature of some of these ice raids and then saying – there's a filter of ice water in that too if you'd like.

01:03:03.000 You don't have to not have your bottle.

01:03:06.000 We don't care.

01:03:07.000 Oh, I think it's in the shot.

01:03:09.000 No, it doesn't matter.

01:03:10.000 We don't care.

01:03:10.000 It doesn't matter.

01:03:12.000 But you could see how they could go back to a much looser border policy.

01:03:18.000 I think it would impact what they're doing.

01:03:19.000 I think they won't.

01:03:20.000 I think they won't.

01:03:20.000 I think the closed border.

01:03:22.000 I mean, I think that that sweet spot of public opinion is like people really want to close.

01:03:26.000 I think it was just really.

01:03:28.000 But I don't think public opinion supported an open border even on the left during those last four years, but yet they did it anyway.

01:03:35.000 And they were moving people to blue states.

01:03:35.000 Right.

01:03:38.000 They were moving people to swing states.

01:03:40.000 They were flying people in, bussing people.

01:03:42.000 They were doing it on purpose.

01:03:43.000 Isn't that also, though, because the blue state governors were more welcoming of them?

01:03:47.000 There's a little bit of that, but there was also the idea that you're going to juice up the congressional seats because you're going to change the census.

01:03:54.000 Maybe, although California lost seats, right?

01:03:56.000 Or lost seats. 0.99

01:03:57.000 Because California's done such a fucking terrible job of governing their state. 1.00

01:04:01.000 It's so, that place is so crazy. 0.99

01:04:04.000 Like, every time there's some new law that they're trying to push through, some new bill, I'm like, do they just want everyone to leave?

01:04:10.000 Well, they drove the billionaires out, right?

01:04:12.000 Yeah.

01:04:12.000 I mean, I know they drove out David Sachs, came to Austin.

01:04:14.000 I think Mark Zuckerberg moved to Florida.

01:04:17.000 I heard rumors of Steven Spielberg.

01:04:18.000 I don't know if that's, I don't want to spread disinformation.

01:04:21.000 I don't want to spread misinformation, but I heard he was leaving.

01:04:23.000 But yeah, it's cool.

01:04:25.000 The thing that drives me the most nuts is when these progressive talking heads saying they don't want to pay their fair share.

01:04:31.000 With the amount of waste and fraud, why would you? 0.98

01:04:35.000 You don't think there should be some accountability to how much fucking waste and fraud that has been clearly demonstrated? 0.98

01:04:43.000 Like the solution is just give more money. 0.98

01:04:46.000 Oh, and they can do it because they have it.

01:04:48.000 So what?

01:04:49.000 You just give more money and now it's $30 billion goes to homeless with no accountability?

01:04:54.000 Like, what are you saying?

01:04:55.000 Like, where do you think this money's going to go where it's actually going to help people and affect things in a positive way?

01:05:01.000 There's been no indication that that's the case.

01:05:03.000 That the real problem is they just haven't had enough money from the billionaires. 0.99

01:05:07.000 That's fucking ludicrous. 0.99

01:05:09.000 That idea is ludicrous. 1.00

01:05:10.000 It's such a lazy, intellectually lazy way of framing this whole discussion. 0.94

01:05:16.000 That's saying, oh, they don't want to pay their fair share. 1.00

01:05:18.000 Fuck you. 1.00

01:05:19.000 That's not what's going on here. 1.00

01:05:20.000 What's going on here? 0.88

01:05:21.000 You have a completely incompetent government that's absolutely corrupt and they want more money. 0.96

01:05:26.000 Oh, yeah. 0.86

01:05:27.000 Gas is like $8 a gallon almost now.

01:05:30.000 That's bananas.

01:05:32.000 They were going to shut down.

01:05:33.000 I mean, the refineries are being shut down.

01:05:35.000 That initiative, the billionaires tax, is an SCIU initiative.

01:05:40.000 So, meaning it's the union that covers healthcare workers, like nurses.

01:05:44.000 They're very radical, very radical left.

01:05:46.000 And the money is to provide Medicaid for undocumented immigrants.

01:05:51.000 That's what they want it for, right?

01:05:52.000 So that's the whole thing.

01:05:54.000 And so you literally get the this is like this is what people worry about democracy.

01:05:59.000 You get all the, it's very democratic, but you get these powerful unions and they're able to change the laws like that.

01:06:05.000 I mean, it's called the Curly effect because there was a Boston mayor named Curly who made everything so bad for his political opponents that they left.

01:06:12.000 But the consequence was that he ended up gaining more power.

01:06:15.000 So all of when everybody moves to, you know, when all the like moderate Democrats move to Austin or Miami or Denver or wherever, California just ends up locked in more to a progressive agenda.

01:06:26.000 That's the problem. 0.98

01:06:28.000 Well, I think the idea is that it's so good there that most people are just going to tolerate whatever new bullshit they throw your way. 0.99

01:06:36.000 100%. 0.90

01:06:36.000 And also, I mean, it seems like the tech community is now backing this San Jose mayor who's running, who's a very, he's Democrat, very moderate. 0.90

01:06:44.000 But he's been critical of Gavin.

01:06:46.000 Running for governor?

01:06:47.000 Matt Mayhan.

01:06:47.000 Yeah.

01:06:49.000 So keep your eyes on him.

01:06:50.000 I mean, he's not, he's not like maybe the most exciting guy, but he's definitely running as a moderate.

01:06:56.000 That might be good. 0.99

01:06:58.000 It seems like these exciting people are a fucking problem. 0.99

01:07:00.000 I know. 0.99

01:07:01.000 He might be enough to, I don't know.

01:07:02.000 It's hard to say, but it does look like, because I mean, look, there's plenty of the tech community only woke up politically in 2024.

01:07:10.000 That's how long it took.

01:07:11.000 And it really took things getting so bad where they were telling Mark Andreessen, as he said to you on your show, that they were shutting off whole parts of AI.

01:07:19.000 The Biden administration was openly threatening AI and this huge new.

01:07:23.000 And, you know, there's concerns.

01:07:24.000 I'm not saying that there's not, but I think at some point the tech community, which had been, you know, either leaning Democrat for a long time since the Obama era, you know, or wanted to stay out of politics because they just wanted to focus on their machines and their investments.

01:07:39.000 They don't really want to be involved in politics.

01:07:41.000 But they woke up in 2024.

01:07:42.000 And so hopefully, because it's not, I mean, when you see what Soros has done and you really appreciate the power that one billionaire can have, you kind of go, why is there nothing like that, you know, on the other side?

01:07:54.000 Why is it so dominated by Soros?

01:07:56.000 And so I hope that that's starting to happen.

01:07:58.000 But yeah, when you start to chase out the billionaires and the billionaires just give up on California, then it's got to be whoever's remaining to try to put the money behind the guy that can get some change there.

01:08:08.000 Yeah, that's, I mean, I don't see a pathway where California anytime soon turns around.

01:08:16.000 I don't see how it could.

01:08:17.000 I feel like the momentum has shifted so far in a terrible direction, and the solutions are always tax more, take more money from people.

01:08:28.000 And you see of this completely corrupt, irresponsible, fraud-ridden, wasteful government that wants more of your money.

01:08:37.000 And the solution is, if we take more money, we're going to make things better. 0.60

01:08:41.000 Which is just insanity.

01:08:43.000 I mean, things that can't go on don't.

01:08:46.000 So, I mean, you could see it, right?

01:08:48.000 I mean, say Matt Mahan or somebody more moderate gets in to be governor, Rick Caruso runs for L.A. mayor again.

01:08:55.000 I mean, honestly, like, if somebody can't defeat Karen Bass after she let Los Angeles burn away, which is now, we now know for a fact was just totally preventable, absolutely preventable.

01:09:05.000 I was saying at the time, but now we know.

01:09:07.000 They tried to rewrite the report, but it's clear it was totally preventable.

01:09:11.000 How'd they try to rewrite the report?

01:09:12.000 Well, the report, you know, said, here's all the things that the fire department should have done that didn't happen.

01:09:18.000 And ultimately, you know, the mayor is the one that chooses the fire chief and fires the fire chief.

01:09:23.000 And the mayor was warned.

01:09:24.000 They were warned.

01:09:25.000 And she goes to flies to Ghana for this little junket presidential inauguration, palling around when she should have been in L.A. with a command headquarters.

01:09:34.000 And if she wasn't, then Gavin should have been.

01:09:37.000 Schwarzenegger, towards the end of his administration, they would just mobilize planes full of water, those huge cargo planes full of water, before there were fires, just to start to circulate, just to get ready to put stuff out.

01:09:49.000 This idea that there was this idea promoted that it was inevitable that the fires that, oh, eventually it's just no, like it's absurd.

01:09:57.000 Like, of course, you can protect it with adequate fire.

01:09:59.000 People, oh, the pipes weren't big enough.

01:10:00.000 No, like, maintain your reservoirs, have water in them.

01:10:04.000 Even the one that was like, was like not repaired yet, which should have been repaired, they could have kept, they could have air-gapped the pipes so that it didn't contaminate the water supply, but left it for firefighting.

01:10:14.000 They didn't do that.

01:10:15.000 They didn't station the engines where they needed to station.

01:10:18.000 Nobody was on, you know, it's like they're not taking responsibility.

01:10:22.000 Like, they weren't taking responsibility for it.

01:10:24.000 So, anyway, to the point being, get a new governor, you get a better mayor of LA.

01:10:28.000 You've got a guy in San Francisco now who I think still has a lot of potential.

01:10:31.000 I mean, this latest video, you know, showing the chaos there.

01:10:35.000 But with that, I think that's him, though.

01:10:37.000 Yeah, it's not his fault.

01:10:38.000 His, you know, the criticism of him is he walked away too casually.

01:10:42.000 Yeah, it's no big deal.

01:10:43.000 Yeah, so I mean, I think there is a way for California to come out.

01:10:47.000 And my view is like, look, you've got, it's on the tech billionaires.

01:10:52.000 And I know some of them have left, and obviously they don't need it, but there's still a lot of billionaire rich guys in California that are perfectly capable of financing an alternative effort.

01:11:03.000 Remember, 75% of San Francisco voters want to arrest people using fentanyl in public.

01:11:09.000 They want to arrest them.

01:11:11.000 That sounds so taboo in progressive.

01:11:13.000 That's 75% of San Francisco voters.

01:11:16.000 So the voters are not the radical left.

01:11:20.000 Some ways they're radicalized in their hatred of Trump and the Trump derangement syndrome.

01:11:23.000 But I mean, everyone like Caruso and Mahan and anybody else there will all just be able to say they hate Trump like everybody else.

01:11:30.000 Well, I think they've seen the consequences of these policies.

01:11:32.000 Oh, yeah.

01:11:34.000 People are really, it's not like anything has changed that significantly.

01:11:38.000 They will, in fact, when I interview people in San Francisco, they're a little reluctant to admit that's gotten better because I think they don't want to take any pressure off the politicians.

01:11:47.000 So, I mean, I do think it's rescuable, but it's hard.

01:11:51.000 When you say it's gotten better, like, how so?

01:11:53.000 Mostly the encampments are being broken up.

01:11:56.000 Now, you see a little, you see more of that sort of thing that we just saw in the video where there's like, I call them like a little more of like a nest.

01:12:02.000 You know, there's just a little home.

01:12:05.000 Big encampments, like, yeah, the whole block.

01:12:07.000 That's in Oakland.

01:12:08.000 Yeah.

01:12:08.000 That's in Skid Row.

01:12:09.000 Oh, Oakland's nuts. 0.86

01:12:10.000 Oakland is. 0.93

01:12:11.000 Oakland might not be savable.

01:12:13.000 They had a chance to save themselves and they ended up voting for the wrong person for mayor and it's just as bad as ever.

01:12:19.000 So, but I think if you get San Francisco, LA, and a new governor in place, I think you've got the makings to save it.

01:12:26.000 Have you seen this video where this guy does this description of what's going on in Oakland and then drives across the county line into the next place and it's immediately all done?

01:12:35.000 And you just see what the difference between two different forms of government and how it works.

01:12:40.000 I didn't see that one, but I saw the one between Venice and Santa Monica.

01:12:43.000 I was there when they Venice and Santa Monica was somewhere like, you're like, why are there tents?

01:12:43.000 Yeah.

01:12:46.000 Why aren't there any tents there?

01:12:47.000 It's like, that's Santa Monica.

01:12:49.000 Yeah.

01:12:50.000 It's different.

01:12:50.000 Well, there's still some.

01:12:52.000 Santa Monica got bad too.

01:12:54.000 But they cleaned it up a little bit better.

01:12:55.000 Yeah.

01:12:56.000 But Venice is bananas.

01:12:57.000 It's just, but Venice is nothing compared to Skid Row.

01:13:00.000 Skid Row is 50 blocks.

01:13:02.000 Venice is okay now.

01:13:03.000 Venice is okay now.

01:13:04.000 Yeah, they cleaned that up pretty quickly.

01:13:06.000 And then they and then the voters fired their city council member who represented them, who was total, crazy radical, Chesapeake-level radical, and replaced him with a more moderate person.

01:13:16.000 But yeah.

01:13:17.000 So like when you go to the beach, it's not chaos.

01:13:19.000 Yeah.

01:13:20.000 I mean, I'm not going to, there's always, it's, but I mean, remember, before it was just, it was tense everywhere.

01:13:25.000 I mean, it was chaos.

01:13:26.000 Everywhere.

01:13:27.000 And they were dug in.

01:13:28.000 You know, it was like crazy.

01:13:29.000 So, no, that's gone.

01:13:31.000 But Skid Row, it's bad as ever.

01:13:33.000 Skid Row is 50 blocks.

01:13:35.000 50 blocks is so crazy.

01:13:38.000 50 blocks of tents and homeless people.

01:13:40.000 When we first heard that, I was like, that's got to be wrong.

01:13:42.000 It's probably five blocks.

01:13:44.000 No, it's 5-0.

01:13:45.000 50 blocks.

01:13:46.000 That's an enormous amount of land that's completely covered by homeless encampments.

01:13:51.000 There's like a whole genre of influencers when they first visit Skid Row because everyone hears about it.

01:13:57.000 And then you see their tweets are just like, they're just like, oh, I couldn't believe.

01:14:01.000 I think it's like maybe Ben Shapiro or there's various conservative influencers who have gone to Skid Row and they're like, I had no idea.

01:14:07.000 You have no idea until you see it.

01:14:09.000 There was a comic from the comedy store that filmed something.

01:14:12.000 He went like undercover and he had, like in his past, he had some, I don't think, I think currently he was sober when he did this, but he decided to go there and film and stay in one of these encampments just to show what it was like.

01:14:27.000 And this is like 2006-ish, six-ish, somewhere around there. 0.94

01:14:32.000 And it was fucking nuts, even back then.

01:14:35.000 And, you know, we talked about the story of how Skid Row with the whole Jerome Hotel and how it all started. 0.98

01:14:43.000 Skid Row was the place where they would take all the homeless people and all the people that were problematic and they would move them there and keep them there.

01:14:50.000 And the idea was that you just keep them out of Beverly Hills, keep them away from Hollywood.

01:14:55.000 We're doing movies and we've got famous people walking around.

01:14:58.000 We can't have homeless people.

01:14:59.000 So you just snatch them up, take them downtown, and contain them.

01:15:03.000 So they had them contained in this area and they called it Skid Row.

01:15:07.000 And then it just kept getting bigger.

01:15:09.000 It's not that different from the tenderloin in the sense that those are places where the single resident, those are the places where the really cheap hotels were.

01:15:15.000 They were like often for like working, you know, like working people that were in town temporarily, like temporary hotels.

01:15:20.000 Some of them would just be cages.

01:15:21.000 There were no walls.

01:15:22.000 Like you would just get your own little, that was how primitive they were.

01:15:25.000 And then it just evolved over time and then they became, all of them became subsidized for the homeless.

01:15:30.000 But yeah, it's, I don't think, I think California, I think it's important.

01:15:35.000 I think with Trump, and again, like him or hate him or disagree or whatever, you see the potential of this country in particular to make a big change.

01:15:44.000 And I think that it's ultimately resulted from an unleashing of, you know, social media made it all possible.

01:15:50.000 It allowed for people to get, you know, accurate information for the first time in a different paradigm.

01:15:55.000 So I don't want to lose hope on the Golden State.

01:15:58.000 But you lost hope on Oakland.

01:16:00.000 Yeah.

01:16:03.000 Yeah, but maybe I never had hope for Oakland.

01:16:06.000 So.

01:16:07.000 At one point in time, Oakland was great.

01:16:08.000 Yeah, I mean, Jerry Brown actually brought it up a bit.

01:16:11.000 You know, got it more development there.

01:16:13.000 But yeah, it's all about governance.

01:16:15.000 Yeah, it is.

01:16:17.000 I guess.

01:16:19.000 Hey, can I use the bathroom?

01:16:20.000 Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.

01:16:21.000 We'll be right back, folks.

01:16:21.000 We'll pause.

01:16:23.000 I just sent Jamie something funny that someone just sent me about San Francisco. 0.76

01:16:29.000 There's this guy, I think he calls himself the gay Republican. 0.82

01:16:33.000 The gay Republican? 0.93

01:16:35.000 There's a lot of those, actually. 0.98

01:16:37.000 But which shouldn't shock people.

01:16:40.000 They're closeted about the Republican part now.

01:16:42.000 That's the thing.

01:16:43.000 Well, it depends on how wealthy they are.

01:16:44.000 I mean, some of them are pretty, you know, Peter Thiel, pretty open about it.

01:16:48.000 He will, he was, yeah, about his Republicanism.

01:16:50.000 Watch this.

01:16:51.000 Fran Transit.

01:16:52.000 We refuse to release crime surveillance videos because it will make people racist.

01:16:57.000 Releasing videos would create a racial bias in the riders against minorities on the trains.

01:17:03.000 Why would it do that, San Fran Transit?

01:17:05.000 Why would it create a bias?

01:17:07.000 Is there a reoccurring theme among the people committing crimes?

01:17:14.000 You could say that about European crime statistics as well.

01:17:16.000 That's also why the Germans actually, in particular, but I think other European countries did not want to release.

01:17:22.000 Right.

01:17:23.000 But they did get them out.

01:17:24.000 They have come out now.

01:17:26.000 And the UK.

01:17:27.000 Yeah.

01:17:29.000 So let's move on to happier subjects, shall we?

01:17:33.000 So what do you think about all this UAP talk?

01:17:36.000 It's one thing that Trump has said that he's going to release whatever files that they might have on UAPs, alien terrestrial beings, all this jazz.

01:17:49.000 I talked to Jesse Michaels about it.

01:17:51.000 He is highly skeptical.

01:17:53.000 And he said the people that are involved are all old guard. 0.98

01:17:57.000 And, you know, they're just, it's just going to be a bunch of horseshit. 0.96

01:18:02.000 I mean, just first of all, look. 0.83

01:18:02.000 Maybe. 0.83

01:18:03.000 I mean, I think whatever you think about the phenomenon, this is amazing.

01:18:07.000 I mean, the president just said he's going to release all these things.

01:18:09.000 So, I mean, after decades of saying, we're not interested in this, we're not following this.

01:18:14.000 We're shutting down Blue Book.

01:18:16.000 You know, there's nothing there.

01:18:18.000 They're like, he's saying.

01:18:19.000 So, I mean, that right there is, I think, amazing.

01:18:22.000 And I thought the whole thing was amazing.

01:18:23.000 Like, Obama comes out and he goes, well, there's definitely aliens.

01:18:26.000 Oh, but they're not under Area 51.

01:18:28.000 Unless they're hiding it from presidents, which is like a well-established conspiracy theory.

01:18:33.000 So to have Obama even say that.

01:18:34.000 And then Trump comes up and he goes, Obama revealed classified information with a little grin on his face because he's a little rivalry with Obama.

01:18:43.000 I might help him out by declassifying it.

01:18:45.000 And then a few hours later he did.

01:18:47.000 I mean, what can't you like about that?

01:18:49.000 I mean, I think that well, it's theater.

01:18:52.000 That's what you can't like about it.

01:18:53.000 It's theater, but I mean, something really comes out.

01:18:56.000 This is just another distraction to keep us from thinking about all the other things that are going on.

01:19:01.000 But you can't be so, I mean, we should get into Epstein files too, because I do think I have a different view of Epstein now.

01:19:06.000 But look, I just think we've been asking for more transparency like we had in this very brief period in the mid-70s with the church committee hearings.

01:19:14.000 It really took a whole watergate.

01:19:16.000 It took something big.

01:19:17.000 It's been over 50 years.

01:19:19.000 We got a lot of Epstein files.

01:19:20.000 Yes, there's some missing, but we got JFK files, Amelia Earhart files, and now we're going to get some UFO files.

01:19:26.000 Is it going to be everything?

01:19:27.000 Of course not.

01:19:27.000 There's just no way.

01:19:29.000 But I don't think we should hold both.

01:19:32.000 We should be happy that there is an acknowledgement that there's a lot of government files and that there's some commitment to release them.

01:19:40.000 Because I do think it's easier to get new Epstein files released after you have some Epstein files released than if you have none.

01:19:47.000 And I feel the same way about UFOs.

01:19:49.000 Okay.

01:19:50.000 So it's easier to get more UFO files released, but like release like what do we want?

01:19:58.000 I think one of it is like, what do we want?

01:20:00.000 And I've been, you know, I respect John Greenwald a lot.

01:20:03.000 He runs something called theblackvault.com, where he has been foyering.

01:20:08.000 He's been issuing Freedom of Information Act requests on UAP, but also a ton of other issues since the mid-90s.

01:20:14.000 When he was like 15 years old, he became obsessed with doing FOIA requests.

01:20:18.000 And he has identified a number of documents that we know exist with redactions.

01:20:23.000 One of them is the UAP Task Force, which has a line that just says potential explanations.

01:20:29.000 The first explanation is redacted.

01:20:31.000 It's blacked out.

01:20:32.000 The second one is some sort of natural phenomenon.

01:20:34.000 Number three is blacked out.

01:20:35.000 It's redacted.

01:20:36.000 Unredact those.

01:20:37.000 I mean, come on, guys.

01:20:38.000 You can't tell me, well, we have to protect our censor data.

01:20:41.000 Come on, guys.

01:20:42.000 I mean, like, that's not censor data.

01:20:44.000 Tell us what the potential explanations are.

01:20:47.000 In terms of the sensor data, John also made a great point.

01:20:49.000 Do you remember when the Pentagon released the video of the Russian jet dumping fuel on one of our drones?

01:20:57.000 There's like a famous video where they show a hostile act by the Russians dumping fuel on our drone.

01:21:02.000 When was this?

01:21:03.000 I mean, it must have been within the last year or so.

01:21:03.000 Just recently.

01:21:06.000 So like they're not – we do see – they do release warfare.

01:21:11.000 Various times they do release things and you can kind of go, OK, that means that we have – I don't think – what I'm saying is the main excuse has been not to reveal our methods for getting – we're just talking about UAP here, getting photographs and video.

01:21:27.000 We know that a huge amount of it exists.

01:21:30.000 They haven't even released the full, you know, gimbal and go fast videos.

01:21:35.000 There's a whole bunch more video left.

01:21:36.000 Really?

01:21:37.000 Yeah.

01:21:37.000 So just release.

01:21:37.000 So the video that came out, those were whistleblower leaks, right?

01:21:41.000 Eventually they released them formally, though.

01:21:43.000 The Pentagon did.

01:21:44.000 So there's much more of that.

01:21:47.000 And particularly, sorry to interrupt you, but was it the gimbal or the go fast where there was many more crafts?

01:21:54.000 I believe that there was, so there's three videos, right?

01:21:57.000 It's gimbal, go fast, and then what was the one where it moved, the tic-tac video, it moves out of the frame.

01:22:04.000 My understanding is that there's significantly more video for all of those.

01:22:08.000 And then I also, my understanding is also there's just a lot of other videos, particularly from those two incidents, certainly have.

01:22:14.000 There's so much more sensor data from, because we know those incidents had a lot more going on, right?

01:22:19.000 And just was filmed by those videos.

01:22:21.000 So I think that now there is, I was going to say the UAP community, there isn't really an organized one, although Jesse's doing an amazing job of organizing it.

01:22:30.000 We should be really specific and say, you know, here's what we want.

01:22:33.000 I did a piece with John Greenwald.

01:22:36.000 Representative Nancy Mace wrote an open letter to the intelligence and military community saying, here's a set of documents that we want to release.

01:22:44.000 So I think the good news is we're like, look, the president has said he wants this.

01:22:47.000 We've identified a bunch of documents, identified a bunch of videos in film.

01:22:51.000 Yeah, I mean, are they going to withhold stuff?

01:22:53.000 Are they going to mislead?

01:22:54.000 Probably, but that's been the story for 80 years.

01:22:57.000 Yeah, you saw the Age of Disclosure, right?

01:22:59.000 Yes, of course.

01:23:00.000 Okay, so I think they make a really good point in Age of Disclosure that if they did release things, the real problem is misappropriation of funds lying to Congress.

01:23:12.000 And the fact that some of these, you would assume that the way these things are being handled, if they do have crafts, if there is some sort of a back engineering program, that back engineering program is going to be held by a military contractor.

01:23:29.000 So whatever the contractor is, whether it's Rocket Dyne or whoever has it, right?

01:23:34.000 You would imagine that the other competing groups would be very pissed off that they didn't have access to this thing and they could sue.

01:23:43.000 The misappropriation of funds lying to Congress, people could go to jail.

01:23:47.000 Also, most likely fraud.

01:23:50.000 There's got to be tons of fraud.

01:23:52.000 If there's so much money that's being shuffled away into these black ops projects, if there's no oversight, then who knows where the money's going, right?

01:24:02.000 And so there's a problem there.

01:24:04.000 If you open up the books and people go, well, why was there $100 million check written here?

01:24:09.000 Where's the $2.3 billion that's missing here?

01:24:14.000 Yeah, I have doubts now.

01:24:15.000 I mean, I have to say, I didn't finish watching it, but Jesse just dropped a video with him and Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis.

01:24:21.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:24:23.000 Jesse, yeah.

01:24:23.000 Eric Davis.

01:24:24.000 So Jesse Eric.

01:24:25.000 I haven't seen that yet.

01:24:26.000 Yeah, I found it really, it really made me question whether there's any there there.

01:24:32.000 What does Eric Davis do?

01:24:34.000 Eric Davis, you know who he is?

01:24:35.000 He's got the bushy beard and he's in age of disclosure and is part of the whole Bigelow, that whole OSAP, ATIP.

01:24:45.000 He was a, I don't know if it was exact.

01:24:48.000 He's a scientist.

01:24:49.000 But he was sort of talking about, because I think Eric Weinstein was asking these really hard questions, like, okay, well, like, how many people are in this reverse engineering program and what is it?

01:24:49.000 Okay.

01:24:58.000 And I just found his answers to be very thin.

01:25:01.000 So I'm.

01:25:02.000 I haven't seen it yet, so I can't comment on that.

01:25:04.000 But I know both skeptical and open-minded at the same time.

01:25:10.000 There is a like, yeah, I just definitely think there's a lot more than they've revealed.

01:25:16.000 I think my skepticism on the reverse engineering stuff, I mean, obviously there's crash retrieval because they're just retrieving, it could be foreign or they're retrieving something.

01:25:25.000 The reverse engineering, I mean, if it's advanced tech, nuclear just took so much.

01:25:30.000 I mean, I'm just familiar with the history of nuclear, just so much effort to create nuclear energy.

01:25:35.000 And you'd have these huge, it was a huge enterprise, thousands of people.

01:25:39.000 If they're not, I mean, that's why I kind of go, and I mean, a whole other form of propulsion.

01:25:44.000 I mean, it's just really, it would require so many, so such a big bureaucracy.

01:25:50.000 That's where I'm a little skeptical that that exists because I don't know how you maintain a cover-up that long.

01:25:55.000 But I could be wrong.

01:25:56.000 I mean, as you know, as people have pointed out, they've maintained secrecy of a lot of things for a really long time.

01:26:03.000 So it's not inconceivable.

01:26:05.000 Well, especially when you're dealing with government contractors and military contractors, they have a long history of keeping a tight lip when it comes to all sorts of top-secret projects that they're working on.

01:26:18.000 I mean, it's weird because if you look at the UAP Task Force, which was created by people that had, you know, it was that comes out of, they have OSAP and then ATIP and then UAP Task Force, and then they create Arrow, which is much more like what Blue Book was, which is their whole point is to debunk and dismiss, I think.

01:26:33.000 That's the whole point.

01:26:35.000 It's just to say we looked into it and there's nothing there.

01:26:38.000 So then they cherry-pick the cases.

01:26:40.000 Like they don't actually deal with stuff that they can't explain.

01:26:43.000 That's what Arrow's point is.

01:26:44.000 But the UAP Task Force was people that seem genuinely interested in it, and they have potential explanations and three separate things.

01:26:51.000 So that means that they didn't know themselves.

01:26:53.000 And so I would think that if there was some reverse engineering program, then you would have a better idea than just three potential explanations.

01:27:02.000 But that's assuming they actually got access.

01:27:04.000 The UAP Task Force people.

01:27:07.000 Yeah, I mean, if they open themselves up for, if they do have access, then you open up those questions, misappropriation of funds, lying to Congress, military contractors having access to these vehicles.

01:27:19.000 I would imagine that's too messy.

01:27:21.000 They get very mumbly.

01:27:22.000 They get very mumbly at that point.

01:27:24.000 I find when you start kind of like, well, what is it?

01:27:25.000 And how many people kind of, it's a lot of like, you know, I mean, that's how I, that's how that was my interpretation of this.

01:27:33.000 I think that it's I'm much more with Jacques Vallée's view of the phenomenon, and I think that they don't know what it is.

01:27:41.000 I think they have a lot more photos and videos showing, demonstrating this incredible phenomenon, but I'm not sure that they know what it is.

01:27:49.000 And I'm pretty skeptical that they have a secret reverse engineering program just because I don't see how they would have carried it out for this long.

01:27:57.000 Because Jesse's theory, of course, is that it would date back to the 50s.

01:28:01.000 And it just, there's just too many possibilities for too many deathbed confessions from people to reveal this knowledge.

01:28:01.000 Yeah.

01:28:09.000 But don't you think you would keep a really close watch on anyone who had any access to any of these things?

01:28:17.000 And that would be very threatening to them, like Bob Lazar.

01:28:21.000 Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

01:28:23.000 You believe Bob Czar.

01:28:24.000 I do.

01:28:25.000 I don't know what he was working on, whether or not it was ours or something else or what.

01:28:25.000 Yeah.

01:28:30.000 But I don't think he's a liar.

01:28:31.000 He's had the same story forever.

01:28:34.000 Well, then we should go demand the documents.

01:28:35.000 I mean, that would be something where we just need to be like, look, these are the documents that we want, and it's on this place these years.

01:28:44.000 Well, one of the things that Bob said is he thinks some of the documents that he was shown were horseshit, and he thinks it's on purpose.

01:28:49.000 He thinks that those fake documents, that the fake narratives are a hook. 0.94

01:28:55.000 So that if somebody does spill the beans, they know exactly who would, who was doing it, because they could point to, like, maybe if you're involved in, you know, X program, they give you some bullshit narrative on top of the real truth, right?

01:29:11.000 They'll make up some stuff.

01:29:12.000 That way, if you really, well, the government told me X, and you go, oh, okay, he learned it from this.

01:29:12.000 Right.

01:29:18.000 He's a part of this program.

01:29:19.000 Now we've narrowed it down to 250 employees.

01:29:22.000 Let's start scouring these people and counter questions.

01:29:25.000 Yeah, counterintelligence.

01:29:26.000 Yeah, I mean, it seems like, so you know, the MJ-12 documents.

01:29:29.000 There's one of them that is this incredible document.

01:29:32.000 I mean, just if it's a forgery, and most people, I think, think it's a forgery or it's a hoax or whatever.

01:29:36.000 It's so well done.

01:29:37.000 It's the manual on extraterrestrial crash retrieval with different morphologies.

01:29:42.000 Have you ever seen this?

01:29:43.000 No.

01:29:43.000 People have seen it.

01:29:44.000 It's an amazing document.

01:29:45.000 Like, I spent, I went down a long rabbit hole.

01:29:47.000 Look, I would say most ufologists think it's fake, so it's not even me.

01:29:52.000 What's incredible about it, they show like, you know, like the old books from the library, they'd show who checked it out.

01:29:56.000 They had all these names.

01:29:59.000 So then you kind of go, like, the only people really, I mean, it seemed like the level of sophistication to create this would have been the government.

01:30:06.000 And so then you're sort of like, well, why would they have done that?

01:30:09.000 One of the answers is it was just this is called passage material to be able to detect counterintelligence activities.

01:30:15.000 I'll tell you another one that I can't quite figure out.

01:30:17.000 I mean, for me, it says a lot of effort to, and why that narrative, I mean, like, another thing I was told people say is they'll go, well, they're using the UAP stuff as cover for secret weapons programs.

01:30:28.000 And you're like, well, why would that work as cover?

01:30:30.000 And they go, well, because then it's a way to distract attention.

01:30:34.000 I was like, but why would that distract attention?

01:30:37.000 Wouldn't that attract attention?

01:30:39.000 You go, as opposed to like within the military, you're like, look, we don't, this is secret research that's really important to national security.

01:30:45.000 We don't pay attention.

01:30:46.000 Instead, they're like, oh, no, this is UFO crash retrieval, so don't pay attention to it.

01:30:51.000 That seems like you're a recipe for creating more interest in UFOs.

01:30:56.000 So there's a lot of things that the government has done where you're like, it's almost like, assuming that is, by the way, we know that the government, the U.S. Air Force, did, you know, in the early 80s, make this guy Paul Benowitz go crazy who was seeing things over Kirtland Air Base.

01:31:10.000 And then this guy, Richard Doty, you know, was they would be feeding him all this information, convincing him of an alien attack.

01:31:18.000 And he basically ended up going crazy from it.

01:31:20.000 It's this amazing story told by this by this book, Mirage Men, also a documentary.

01:31:25.000 And you look at it and you kind of go, and they go, well, it was to cover up a secret weapons program at Kirtland Air Base.

01:31:30.000 And it's like, it's like, I'm not even disbelieving it, but it's like, that's just such a like, why would that be the best way to do that?

01:31:39.000 And why would you be so sure that that wouldn't attract interest from people rather than distract it?

01:31:44.000 So there's a bunch of things that don't make sense.

01:31:46.000 And so even if it is all, you know, which is the skeptic view, you know, is that it's some combination of government disinformation, sci-fi, you know, dreams, hypnosis, hypnagogic states, and then kind of the power of belief.

01:32:02.000 You know, I just reviewed this new book on Barney and Betty Hill, where the author thinks that it was that really was a combination of her stress of being an interracial couple, her nightmares, and then hypnosis, where they then confabulate this whole story.

01:32:18.000 That's the basic skeptic view is that it was sort of, but the government's involved in it, and that's always strange because you're like, why is the government involved in that?

01:32:27.000 Why are you all parts in the Betty and Barney Hill story?

01:32:29.000 No, no, in the UFO in creating in these UFOs, assuming that they did the MJ-12 or somebody did the MJ-12, but certainly in the case of the organizations, why would they have anything, right?

01:32:41.000 Why would they have why would you be doing things?

01:32:44.000 Like the thing with the Paul Dotie and the Paul Benowitz or the Richard Doty and Paul Benowitz is like, why was that the best?

01:32:50.000 I mean, it's just, why was that the best way?

01:32:53.000 Like, if somebody observes strange activity over Kirtland Air Base and they discover this, why was that the right approach?

01:33:01.000 I don't follow it.

01:33:02.000 And you had AJ Gentile on, who did the stuff on crop circles.

01:33:06.000 They saw military disinformation around those activities in Britain.

01:33:10.000 So you see a lot of crop circle thing's weird.

01:33:14.000 Really weird.

01:33:15.000 Because you want to just write it off.

01:33:17.000 I mean, I wanted to write it off.

01:33:19.000 I'm like, oh, there's guys with boards.

01:33:20.000 They're making designs.

01:33:21.000 But then you see some of the designs and how the wheat is actually woven and how they have these exploded nodes, almost like they're microwaved.

01:33:30.000 And they've examined these things and it seems like there's some energy that's created these things.

01:33:35.000 And also the sheer size and scale of some of these things with no footprints leading into them or out of them.

01:33:44.000 And just the geometric precision of some of them, it's really weird.

01:33:50.000 Like there's, of course, it's eyewitness accounts.

01:33:52.000 It's hard to know if they're being accurate, but people who've flown over areas where there's nothing there, flown back two hours later.

01:33:59.000 And there's these football field size Mandelbrot sets.

01:34:04.000 There was the Julia set over next to Stonehenge was the one that the guy flew over and there was nothing there.

01:34:10.000 And a couple of hours later, there was the Julia set, which is a spectacular fractal.

01:34:15.000 Right.

01:34:16.000 It's incredible precision.

01:34:16.000 I'll tell you what's going on.

01:34:18.000 That's what's really as much precision as you can get by folding over wheat.

01:34:21.000 But when you look at it like from above and you don't get to the micro, you're looking at these things that they really do scale in a fractal way.

01:34:34.000 It's very fucking strange and difficult to reproduce. 0.92

01:34:38.000 You would imagine something like that would take a long fucking time to plot out and plan. 0.98

01:34:42.000 It would take multiple people. 0.97

01:34:44.000 You'd have to measure and remeasure.

01:34:45.000 You'd have to have some sort of tools and instruments, not just to fold over the wheat, but if you're going to interweave the wheat, like what is your method of doing that?

01:34:56.000 And how are you doing it where, you know, this one is one dimension and then the next one is precisely three-fifths of that dimension.

01:35:05.000 Next one is slightly, and they're fractal.

01:35:08.000 Well, it gets really even weirder than that.

01:35:10.000 So you know how I just described this case of this Air Force counterintelligence guy driving this guy, Paul Bennett, it's crazy at Caribbean Affairs.

01:35:16.000 That book is written by Mark Pilkington.

01:35:20.000 Mark Pilkington is one of two guys that claim to have created all the crop circles.

01:35:25.000 The other guy is a guy named John Lundberg.

01:35:27.000 Oh, right, right.

01:35:28.000 AJ, in his video about the crop circles, accuses John Lundberg.

01:35:34.000 Again, they call it the Circle Makers.

01:35:36.000 They have a website they keep updated.

01:35:38.000 He accuses him of being a British intelligence agent.

01:35:41.000 AJ does, or at least he strongly implies it.

01:35:45.000 And part of that is because there was a bunch of weird stuff on the website about MI5 and the CIA.

01:35:51.000 And then Lundberg went to a school.

01:35:52.000 This is all very circumstantial, so I'm not defending.

01:35:54.000 I'm just saying what AJ said.

01:35:55.000 And then Lundberg went to a school that shares a courtyard with an MI5 campus or an MI5 training area.

01:36:02.000 I asked Mark, I have like a three, I have like three hours of interviews with Mark, who I'm really interested, a very interesting person.

01:36:09.000 I asked him directly if they had any connection to military intelligence.

01:36:12.000 He said, absolutely not.

01:36:14.000 It's hard to.

01:36:15.000 Which is what you would say.

01:36:17.000 Well, of course, you're allowed to say it if you are, but I'm not making any accusations.

01:36:20.000 But yeah, I mean, he claimed that they made all of them.

01:36:24.000 And, you know, there's some of them.

01:36:25.000 Have you ever seen the massive one?

01:36:26.000 There was one that was absolutely massive.

01:36:28.000 Yeah, pull some of them up, Jamie, so we can get some of that.

01:36:30.000 There's the Julius said, there's another, there's another one that's so big, it's really hard to see.

01:36:35.000 But he said that he wasn't at that one.

01:36:36.000 Yeah.

01:36:37.000 That's the famous, that's the Julius said gorgeous.

01:36:39.000 Well, the big one right there is in the middle.

01:36:40.000 That one's just crazy.

01:36:42.000 These are enormous.

01:36:43.000 Yeah, they're enormous.

01:36:44.000 Go full screen on that.

01:36:47.000 They're so big.

01:36:49.000 And I mean, the amount of precision involved in them is kind of spectacular.

01:36:55.000 No, Mark denies that they have exploded nodes and he denies that they're interwoven.

01:37:01.000 AJ says that they are definitely interwoven and have exploded nodes.

01:37:04.000 And there was even an article in Science magazine which argues that they were made by humans, but that they point out the exploded nodes.

01:37:14.000 So yeah, maybe that's it.

01:37:15.000 What's weird too is there's like, how did you do this?

01:37:20.000 Where's the evidence of people trampling through this with equipment?

01:37:25.000 No, it's all missing.

01:37:27.000 Like, it's strange.

01:37:29.000 And then also, no one's caught doing them.

01:37:31.000 How about the pie?

01:37:32.000 Here's the other one.

01:37:33.000 I asked Mark about this and he didn't know about it, but do you know the pie one?

01:37:36.000 Yeah.

01:37:37.000 It was apparently, I'm pretty sure it's the first time that it was a visual explanation of pie.

01:37:43.000 That's my understanding of it.

01:37:44.000 Now, maybe there's someone, I haven't seen anything earlier than that, but that's like on its own is really amazing that that was the first time that they had created a visual representation of pie.

01:37:55.000 Yeah.

01:37:56.000 Completely with like the, yeah, that's it.

01:37:57.000 It's like, there's a, there's another image that will show how it is pie, probably that one right there.

01:38:03.000 Yeah.

01:38:05.000 And so that's a extremely sophisticated crop circle.

01:38:10.000 Right.

01:38:11.000 I mean, imagine the type of intelligence that you'd have to possess to pull this off and then not let anybody know that you did it.

01:38:22.000 And it's just for funsies.

01:38:24.000 Just for funsies in a field.

01:38:26.000 Yeah.

01:38:26.000 It's.

01:38:27.000 And then, you know, these MIT researchers went out.

01:38:29.000 That's also part of it.

01:38:30.000 And they tried to do it and it just wasn't nearly as good.

01:38:34.000 What is this article sir?

01:38:34.000 Yeah.

01:38:36.000 Okay.

01:38:37.000 Yeah. 0.96

01:38:37.000 It is very fucking weird. 0.96

01:38:39.000 Yeah. 0.98

01:38:39.000 It's very weird. 0.98

01:38:41.000 But the whole UFO thing is very weird.

01:38:45.000 You know, the Jacques Valley books are very interesting.

01:38:48.000 And I've read three of his books so far.

01:38:51.000 And I've had them on a couple of times.

01:38:53.000 And the last time I had him on, I really went on a deep dive and I read two of his books right before he came on.

01:38:59.000 And one of the more interesting things is the really old stories.

01:39:04.000 Like the stories from the 1700s, the 1800s, where they lack the context of spaceships, the idea behind it.

01:39:12.000 Like none of that stuff exists.

01:39:14.000 But yet you get almost at least you could say, oh, I could understand how they would be describing it this way, but it's kind of the same thing that other people have been describing.

01:39:26.000 Like the Zimbabwe story, a lot of these other stories, it's kind of the same story over and over and over again, which makes you go, okay, well, what, does it have to be from outer space?

01:39:37.000 Or is it possible that there is something here that is like far older than us that has somehow or another removed itself from our view.

01:39:50.000 Or is it social contagion?

01:39:52.000 And people, I mean, I'm always struck by it's always like the aliens always are like, oh, protect your environment and avoid nuclear war.

01:39:59.000 It's like, oh, thanks.

01:40:00.000 Like we didn't know we needed to do those until you guys showed up.

01:40:02.000 And it makes more sense as like you could see it as a, I mean, I got very into, I haven't interviewed her yet, but I'm about to.

01:40:09.000 There's an anthropologist at Stanford named Tanya Luhrmann.

01:40:12.000 And she's done this incredible work on religions where she, like anthropologist, a good anthropologist, and also this guy, Bowman, like they, they're agnostic on whether or not like those beings are real.

01:40:24.000 Like they're just like, we're really interested in like the culture and the psychology and the experience of it.

01:40:29.000 But she had this, she, she was like, did her field work with magicians and witches in England?

01:40:35.000 You know, like, you know, like modern witches and not magicians like magic tricks, but like the old, who's the famous magician?

01:40:43.000 Not Gandalf.

01:40:44.000 Houdini?

01:40:44.000 No, no, the British one, Merlin, right?

01:40:47.000 Oh.

01:40:48.000 But like the old style, right?

01:40:50.000 Like, but they were like, so she didn't really believe in it, but she would, they were like, you have to practice witchcraft in order to do this.

01:40:55.000 And she had like multiple anomalous experiences.

01:40:59.000 One of them that she woke up and there was five druids in her room beckoning to her.

01:41:03.000 And people were like, is it a dream?

01:41:05.000 And she's like, no, it's not a dream.

01:41:06.000 She had another instance where they were trying to like conjure energies to like turn off, to like shut down her watch.

01:41:13.000 And she felt a huge energy surge through her and shut off her watch.

01:41:16.000 And her point is that she thinks that the practice, we put too much focus on the beliefs, but she says like the practices themselves, I don't know if she would say conjure.

01:41:26.000 I also interviewed Diana Pasulka on it.

01:41:28.000 They would say more like reveal these different realities.

01:41:32.000 So they're much more, it's a very interesting set of work because they're not trying to answer the question of whether the druids were really in her room or not.

01:41:42.000 I mean, the watch thing, you know, apparently definitely happened.

01:41:45.000 But apparently, definitely is a weird way to figure out.

01:41:49.000 Apparently, to her, definitely.

01:41:52.000 I know, but you know what I'm saying?

01:41:53.000 It's like, show me, man.

01:41:56.000 The conjuring thing is strange because that's a recurring theme that you go outside and you have these experiences where you say, I'm not afraid.

01:42:06.000 Come show yourself to me.

01:42:08.000 And give it enough time with enough intention.

01:42:11.000 Apparently, things will appear in the sky.

01:42:14.000 My favorite one is the black guy talking about Yahweh, who where the local ABC newscaster goes out, and it's going to be one of those, haha, this guy thinks that he can conjure UFOs. 1.00

01:42:23.000 And they go out with him and he conjures an orb.

01:42:26.000 Do you ever see that one?

01:42:27.000 No.

01:42:27.000 That's like an incredible, that's like one of my favorite of those videos.

01:42:31.000 And the newscaster's like, he calls, literally, they see him calling his, I think it's like an NBC affiliate or an ABC affiliate somewhere.

01:42:37.000 Jamie can probably find it.

01:42:40.000 But if it's, he literally calls his boss, the newscaster's like, oh, the story has turned out a little differently than I thought.

01:42:46.000 It's like one of my favorites.

01:42:47.000 I'm sure you could say, oh, it's a balloon or whatever, but like comes in and out.

01:42:50.000 I mean, it's really, and it comes right as he's calling it.

01:42:54.000 That's the weird thing.

01:42:55.000 I've talked to multiple people that have actually done this.

01:42:58.000 Oh, people, it's that have gone with these, you know, air quotes, experts.

01:43:04.000 And they go out to some deserted area and you call these things.

01:43:09.000 There's a second guy, white guy, that also does it.

01:43:12.000 And Reuters did a whole story on him because apparently there's a whole bunch of people around that they saw it.

01:43:17.000 And of course, Jake Barber, who's this former, you know, contractor, helicopter pilot, contractor for Special Forces, announced that he was going to go and conjure UFOs and bring one down.

01:43:32.000 We met up with Prophet Yahweh, seer of Yahweh, at Doolittle Park off Lake Mead.

01:43:37.000 We picked the day, we picked the time, and we picked the location. 0.98

01:43:41.000 Everyone's going to think you're absolutely nuts. 0.98

01:43:43.000 Well, I thought I was absolutely nuts. 0.95

01:43:45.000 Until he says he saw UFOs.

01:43:48.000 Over the years, 1,500 of them.

01:43:51.000 Can we make it 1,501 today?

01:43:53.000 What do you think?

01:43:53.000 I'll try it.

01:43:54.000 He says the voice in his head told him to go public now.

01:43:58.000 So we took him up on his offer and we scanned the skies.

01:44:01.000 Nothing but a few clouds.

01:44:03.000 When the prophet started praying for a sighting, I wasn't exactly convinced.

01:44:06.000 I pray, oh Yahweh, that you send a sighting so that they know that I am not mentally ill.

01:44:12.000 I am not a false prophet.

01:44:14.000 Like those who seek to kill me say I am.

01:44:17.000 Oh, people try to kill him?

01:44:19.000 Oh, brother, look at it.

01:44:20.000 There it is.

01:44:21.000 You can barely see it, a white speck.

01:44:24.000 Then another sighting.

01:44:25.000 There it is.

01:44:26.000 I got it.

01:44:27.000 I got it.

01:44:28.000 Photojournalist Jonathan Hawkins locks in on it.

01:44:30.000 Let's take a closer look here.

01:44:32.000 It's an orange sphere that appeared out of nowhere.

01:44:35.000 I call the boss with an unexpected change in my story.

01:44:39.000 I can see it clear as day.

01:44:41.000 In fact, it's bright.

01:44:42.000 I can't believe this.

01:44:43.000 It's moving pretty fast.

01:44:45.000 It's gone to Nellis Air Force Base.

01:44:47.000 It wants to be seen.

01:44:48.000 We called Nellis to see what these things might be.

01:44:51.000 Guess what?

01:44:52.000 They didn't call us back.

01:44:53.000 But this thing started coming back toward us.

01:44:55.000 It's coming toward us now, I think.

01:44:58.000 See, it's coming up toward us.

01:44:58.000 What?

01:45:01.000 Whoa, man.

01:45:04.000 Oh, hallelujah.

01:45:06.000 Then, a few seconds later, it disappeared.

01:45:09.000 It's going back up in space.

01:45:11.000 Prophet Yahweh isn't concerned.

01:45:12.000 He says it'll be back.

01:45:16.000 I would take this more seriously if that guy didn't have your reporter voice.

01:45:19.000 It's amazing.

01:45:20.000 That's part of the charm of it.

01:45:23.000 I think it's, I love it because I don't think it's going to convince any skeptics.

01:45:29.000 But it's like one of the few things in our world where it inspires a set of wonder and a set of awe.

01:45:35.000 And for those of us that struggle with our faiths, it's inspiring because it is sort of a spiritual, like, I mean, he calls himself Yahweh, right?

01:45:43.000 So there's like, it wasn't about like gray aliens or whatever.

01:45:47.000 It was just something else.

01:45:48.000 And that's what I mean about why I'm more valet.

01:45:51.000 His work explains all of this much better than the sort of the extraterrestrial hypothesis did.

01:45:58.000 And he's had that since 68.

01:45:59.000 Well, I think what he does best is not explain it.

01:46:02.000 Yeah.

01:46:03.000 He doesn't, there really isn't an explanation, but here's what we know.

01:46:07.000 He calls it a control system, though.

01:46:08.000 Yeah.

01:46:09.000 Which is sort of like, I asked Diana, I was like, how is that different from God?

01:46:14.000 Because he's sort of a control system that is his view is that there's a control system that's evolving human consciousness and it will manifest different things or in relation to the humans over time.

01:46:25.000 And so he looks at the apparition, the Maria or St. Mary apparitions in Spain and the airships of the late 19th century where people saw these things that looked like Zeppelins, even though they hadn't been invented yet.

01:46:40.000 All of these things, he says, his view is they're sort of being sort of produced in some relationship as well with our culture.

01:46:47.000 That's Valle's argument.

01:46:48.000 And that sounds a lot like God in some ways.

01:46:50.000 You say control system.

01:46:52.000 Right.

01:46:52.000 What does that mean?

01:46:53.000 Like, is it a higher life form that is monitoring us?

01:46:57.000 Like, that's the secular version of religion for a lot of these people that are really interested in aliens.

01:47:04.000 Like, that there's some advanced being that's making sure we don't fuck everything up completely.

01:47:10.000 Certainly for me, that's my interest.

01:47:11.000 I mean, I like again, this anthropologist Luhrmann, you know, she says, you know, William James is this famous Harvard psychologist who wrote a book about the varieties of the religious experience in 1902.

01:47:23.000 And he says, everybody wants to kind of be like, is it real or not real?

01:47:26.000 Is like this world just what we see?

01:47:28.000 And he says, I think there's something more.

01:47:30.000 There's not, so this very, you know, skeptic or debunker thing, which is like, oh, no, it's just got to be a, that thing's got to be a bird.

01:47:38.000 And it's like, well, but it really, you haven't just calling it that.

01:47:42.000 And as they point out, it's like they showed up when they wanted to.

01:47:44.000 I mean, it's a pretty amazing, if it's just a coincidence, it's a really amazing one.

01:47:48.000 And so I think for me, it's like, because I am a Christian and it is hard to believe in an all-powerful and all-good God because he obviously allowed the Holocaust to occur and allows terrible things to occur. 0.78

01:48:00.000 But I love that segment.

01:48:03.000 And I love, there's another one I love right now.

01:48:04.000 I was like a British woman in the 50s doing an interview about seeing what she calls a Mexican hat UFO over her house.

01:48:11.000 And the kids saw it, and everybody in the village made fun of her and they ridiculed her.

01:48:16.000 And she's like, but it's, you know, but it's, I saw it, and it was real.

01:48:18.000 And it was like, it's like, those are like our, those are spiritual experiences, I think.

01:48:25.000 So I don't know that, like, I want the files released from the government.

01:48:29.000 I'm also skeptical that it's going to tell us what it is because I think at some level, we're not supposed to get more, much more information about what it is.

01:48:36.000 I think it's something else is going on.

01:48:39.000 Or maybe it's having a positive effect.

01:48:42.000 I think it's, I think, one of the, sometimes people get really mad at UFO believers.

01:48:46.000 Like, skeptics get really like angry.

01:48:48.000 Like, how do they, well, they're so, you know, whatever.

01:48:50.000 They get so mad.

01:48:51.000 And I'm always like, but like, how often do you see them causing real harm or problems?

01:48:55.000 I mean, we had one cult where they, you know, like a few people killed themselves, but for the most part. 0.99

01:48:59.000 They cut their balls off first. 0.99

01:49:00.000 Yeah, great. 0.97

01:49:01.000 So, you know, UFO, like for the most part, UFO, people who are interested in UFOs are dreamy seekers, spiritual.

01:49:09.000 And I think it's, I think it's wrong to, I think it's lovely and wonderful.

01:49:14.000 And it reminds us of, you know, that we're small.

01:49:16.000 On the one hand, we're humble about our knowledge and there's just surrounded by mystery.

01:49:20.000 I mean, you're so much of your career and this platform has been to allow us to talk about things that are unexplained and that, or where the explanations don't really seem to explain it.

01:49:31.000 There's something more, as William James would say, there's something more.

01:49:35.000 And I think that the denial of anything more, this idea that, oh, we know everything and we know where the, I mean, we don't know anything.

01:49:41.000 It's just crazy.

01:49:41.000 That's hubris.

01:49:42.000 But those people are silly. 0.98

01:49:45.000 They're more silly than the believers because this idea that, like, look, if there is a, if you have a completely novel experience, like say if you are Commander David Fraver and you encounter this Tic-Tac-shaped object that's hovering over something that appears to be a ship that's under the water, this thing takes off at an absolutely preposterous speed that is documented both on radar and visually and on camera, right? 0.98

01:50:13.000 So they've got video of this thing moving. 0.96

01:50:16.000 They say that it went from above 50,000 feet above sea level to sea level in less than a second, which would require more energy than the entire United States produces in a year in order to get an object to move that quickly.

01:50:32.000 And it does that with no heat signature.

01:50:34.000 Okay, if this is all true, just that alone.

01:50:37.000 Now imagine you have this completely novel experience.

01:50:41.000 And because I haven't had it and you haven't had it, and Jamie hasn't had it, well, it's very simple and easy to dismiss it.

01:50:49.000 But if this happened, what do you expect the person to do?

01:50:55.000 Would you expect a decorated pilot in the Navy, a guy who has a rock-solid record, who is, there's nothing about him that screams that he's a kook or he's mentally ill. 0.98

01:51:09.000 And when you talk to him, he's incredibly meticulous, very intelligent, very disciplined.

01:51:17.000 His face, it looks like he had a spiritual experience.

01:51:20.000 There's a smile on his face.

01:51:22.000 I went to the, when I was in Delhi, I went to the Jain temple and I went to the Hindu temple.

01:51:26.000 And I'm not Jain, I'm not Hindu.

01:51:28.000 But I had a look on my face that reminded me, that sort of, that sort of, that sort of like that starry eye, the look in your face where you've experienced the wonder and the awe of being alive and we're on this planet and we don't really understand it all, but it's beautiful and it's okay.

01:51:44.000 And I think that that's the spiritual, I mean, that's where it's like he's been touched by, I don't, you know, I'm not imposing this, but he's sort of touched by God in some way or touched by something.

01:51:54.000 And it's not.

01:51:55.000 Something extraordinary.

01:51:56.000 And the thing, look, I think the other thing, you read that environment, you're like, that thing showed dominance in that environment.

01:51:56.000 Yeah.

01:52:02.000 So on the one hand, it showed technological dominance.

01:52:04.000 You call it technological.

01:52:06.000 Valet might call it spiritual dominance.

01:52:08.000 But that's for me what's special about it.

01:52:12.000 And I think it's not going to go away.

01:52:14.000 And I don't think we're going to get to the answer.

01:52:16.000 I don't think the government – how could the government?

01:52:19.000 I don't think they know.

01:52:21.000 And even if there was some contact, I don't know if that would really tell you all the answers.

01:52:26.000 Well, what I could imagine is that they have acquired both eyewitness, video, radar, all the various sensors, data.

01:52:39.000 And they've done this with multiple instances of these things.

01:52:44.000 And they are trying to assess what this is.

01:52:47.000 And they have a long-standing study of these things that would both be disturbing and confusing to a lot of people and disruptive to society.

01:52:59.000 I'm sure you're well aware of Hal Putoff and what happened with him during the Bush administration, where they brought him in.

01:53:05.000 And they essentially told Hal Putoff.

01:53:07.000 Now, this is assuming Hal's telling the truth, and I have no reason to think he's lying.

01:53:12.000 They brought him in and a bunch of other scientists and a bunch of other thinkers and said, I want you to create a chart on one side, list the positive aspects of disclosure, and the other side, what are the negative ramifications of disclosure?

01:53:29.000 Government, religion, the finances, all the different things that could happen in the world.

01:53:35.000 And the negatives outweighed the positives, and they decided not to disclose.

01:53:39.000 But the premise that he was brought in with this was saying, we have acquired physical crafts that are not of this world.

01:53:47.000 We have biological entities that are not of this world.

01:53:51.000 And we are part of some sort of a back engineering program.

01:53:54.000 We want to release this information.

01:53:56.000 What would happen if we did?

01:53:58.000 And their conclusion was chaos.

01:54:02.000 Trump didn't seem to go through that checklist and come up with the same answer.

01:54:05.000 I don't think he got that memo.

01:54:08.000 But also, I do.

01:54:10.000 I think he ignores the memos from experts in generals.

01:54:12.000 If he was in office and that was the case and they came to him and, you know, and someone like Tucker or someone that's influential to him could sit down with him and talk to him, and he thought it would gain their favor, he might just release it.

01:54:12.000 Right.

01:54:23.000 I mean, it's wild because on the one hand, it looked like it was spontaneous, but on the other hand, you know, Laura Trump, who's like someone that's like a trusted family member who's like really competent, like they sent her in to like take over the RNC and fix it and fire all the people and get their loyalists in there.

01:54:37.000 She was out there talking, saying that, you know, oh, the Trump is I was hearing a lot of noise, but it wasn't from people that I trusted, so I didn't report anything on it.

01:54:44.000 But I was hearing a lot of noise too that the Trump administration was considering doing something, but you didn't know.

01:54:49.000 I didn't know if it was circular reporting.

01:54:50.000 But I thought the Laura Trump thing was interesting because I don't think, I don't see her as sort of a, she's not just speculating or bullshitting.

01:54:58.000 You know, she's a trusted, you know, kind of trusted source for that.

01:55:03.000 So she said that, and then Obama was asked about it, and then Trump made that announcement.

01:55:06.000 So I don't know what they have planned.

01:55:08.000 You know, we were pushing on the intelligence community privately to release the stuff and it was going nowhere.

01:55:12.000 The Obama thing was nuts because the guy didn't have any follow-up questions.

01:55:16.000 That was part of what was really weird about it.

01:55:18.000 Also, they put it in a speed round.

01:55:21.000 Like it's like, why would you put it in a speed round?

01:55:23.000 Which is probably why he didn't have follow-up questions if you think about it that way.

01:55:27.000 But I mean, that's just a massive dropping of the ball.

01:55:30.000 Well, the guy says aliens are real.

01:55:32.000 How do you know?

01:55:33.000 Is the next question, right?

01:55:34.000 It's right there.

01:55:35.000 How do you know aliens are real?

01:55:36.000 Well, yesterday, the day after then, he said, oh, I just meant theoretically, and there's life in the universe.

01:55:40.000 Well, why don't you ask that?

01:55:42.000 So you catch him on the spot instead of when it becomes this big viral moment and then everybody's talking about it.

01:55:47.000 And then he comes up with a rational explanation for why he said that.

01:55:50.000 Yeah.

01:55:51.000 I mean, and he told, Obama told one of the late night hosts, I can't remember if it was Kimmel or Colbert or somebody, but he said they said something like, tell us what you know.

01:55:59.000 And he said, I can't tell you.

01:56:01.000 There's things I can't tell you.

01:56:02.000 So, I mean, he obviously knows more than he said.

01:56:05.000 Right.

01:56:05.000 Otherwise, he would say there's nothing.

01:56:06.000 And then Trump said that he knows more.

01:56:08.000 It was very interesting.

01:56:10.000 I talked to Trump about it. 1.00

01:56:12.000 He won't tell you shit. 0.99

01:56:13.000 He kind of move around. 0.99

01:56:14.000 He knows some things.

01:56:17.000 It's very crazy.

01:56:19.000 But, you know, they said they weren't going to release the Epstein files and that came out.

01:56:22.000 So I just kind of go.

01:56:24.000 No, I have a different view.

01:56:25.000 I don't know if you want to get into it, but I have a slightly different view of Epstein than I think I did.

01:56:29.000 Well, before we get into that, you know, Tucker's thoughts on this whole UFO UAP thing.

01:56:36.000 He thinks they're like angels and demons from the Bible, and he thinks that they've always been here.

01:56:42.000 And, you know, I'm sure you're aware of like the book of Enoch, the book of Enoch, which was one of the original biblical texts that wasn't included in the canon, but just because of a few rabbis decided it didn't jive with the Torah.

01:56:55.000 And they found the book of Enoch along with the book of Isaiah as a part of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

01:57:01.000 And when you find out that there was a biblical text that was contemporary to books that did make it into the Old Testament, and that they talk about the watchers who come from above and mate with humans and create this race of giants called the Nephilim who destroy everything and consume everything. 0.99

01:57:25.000 And you're like, what the fuck is this? 0.98

01:57:27.000 Like, what is this? 0.99

01:57:28.000 And just stop and imagine if those rabbis hadn't disclosed, like, if that hadn't been excluded.

01:57:35.000 Like, Wesley Hoff is great talking about this stuff.

01:57:38.000 He's a real historian when it comes to, you know, really understanding the history of these biblical texts.

01:57:44.000 And, you know, and he's absolutely fascinated by it.

01:57:46.000 And he's like, yeah, it is kind of crazy that they just decided to not put that in the Bible.

01:57:51.000 Imagine if they did.

01:57:52.000 And part of when you're going to church and they're going over the Old Testament, like, okay, this week we're going to go over the book of Enoch and we're going to figure out who the watchers are.

01:58:05.000 Like, what is that?

01:58:07.000 Like, what is that story?

01:58:08.000 The crazy thing that Wes Huff told me was that the book of Isaiah that they found in the Dead Sea Scroll predates the oldest version of the book of Isaiah by more than a thousand years.

01:58:21.000 When they found it, they found out that there was a book of Isaiah that is a thousand years older than the one they thought was the oldest one, and it is verbatim.

01:58:30.000 It's verbatim from the one that's a thousand years later, which is kind of crazy. 0.58

01:58:36.000 But then it's also in the same fucking caves as the book of Enoch. 0.94

01:58:36.000 Wow. 0.94

01:58:41.000 It's all together there in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

01:58:44.000 I mean, we've had this, we've been fed this story that sort of all of these religions and myths from the past are all just false.

01:58:44.000 Amazing.

01:58:53.000 Right.

01:58:53.000 They're all just hallucinations.

01:58:54.000 Right.

01:58:55.000 They're all just lies.

01:58:57.000 I don't believe that.

01:58:58.000 It's just really arrogant, actually.

01:59:00.000 Like, it's like, well, no, now, like, we've been around for, you know, humans around for like millions of years, but the last 150 years, we really figured it all out and we figured out that all human knowledge before, you know, whatever, some recent time period is nonsense.

01:59:13.000 Yeah, I think that's quite arrogant.

01:59:16.000 It's very arrogant, but look, I'm a believer that history is far older than we think it is.

01:59:21.000 And I think the more time goes on, the more that gets revealed.

01:59:25.000 So when you're talking about something that's 4,000 or 5,000 years old, I think really you're talking about a retelling of a far older story.

01:59:34.000 And I think It's very difficult when you're dealing with people that don't have an understanding of science.

01:59:41.000 The written language is fairly new.

01:59:44.000 It's an oral tradition for generations before it's ever written down.

01:59:49.000 So, my question with all this is always like, what were they trying to talk about?

01:59:54.000 What were they trying to say?

01:59:56.000 What was the original experience that someone documented in story?

02:00:01.000 And then that story was relayed over and over and over again, generation after generation, until it's eventually written down.

02:00:07.000 And then they study it and take it literally.

02:00:10.000 And then also translating it from Aramaic, which is the Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient Hebrew, all these different languages to Latin and Greek and eventually English.

02:00:22.000 But what's the original story?

02:00:24.000 Like, what are they trying to document?

02:00:27.000 What is this important knowledge that they want to share?

02:00:31.000 And how screwed up would that get over the generations and generations of talking about it?

02:00:36.000 But what ultimate truth is in there?

02:00:39.000 Like, I'm absolutely fascinated by the story of Jesus Christ.

02:00:42.000 Because if you wanted to come up with a way that people would live that would absolutely be far more beneficial than just going on natural instincts and tribal behavior, and you would follow Jesus' teachings.

02:00:58.000 Like, I can't find a flaw in the way he tells you to live life.

02:01:06.000 There's a lot of religions that involve, you know, torturing non-believers and raping infidels and being able to do terrible things to the people that don't believe your religion. 1.00

02:01:17.000 There's none of that in Christianity. 0.99

02:01:19.000 It's all forgiveness.

02:01:20.000 It's all treating your brother and your neighbor as if they're you.

02:01:26.000 Like, it's a beautiful way to live life.

02:01:29.000 Are you Christian?

02:01:30.000 Well, I go to church.

02:01:32.000 I have been for quite a while.

02:01:33.000 Okay.

02:01:34.000 I've been doing it for the last three or four years.

02:01:35.000 But that's not really an answer to the question.

02:01:36.000 Well, because I don't know.

02:01:39.000 I think it's very interesting.

02:01:41.000 And I do believe that if you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, you will live a better life.

02:01:47.000 I really do believe that. 0.54

02:01:48.000 And one of the things I talk about is like the people that I go to church with are the most fucking polite people I've ever met in my life.

02:01:55.000 They're so kind and so nice.

02:01:57.000 And everybody lets you out of the parking lot.

02:01:59.000 Everybody's like, Hugo, Hugo.

02:02:01.000 It's like the one, like it works.

02:02:03.000 Like, if people are trying to find an idea, does that mean I believe people came back from the dead?

02:02:03.000 You know what I'm saying?

02:02:08.000 Does that mean I believe Moses part of the Red Sea?

02:02:12.000 Not really.

02:02:13.000 No, it seems like that's most likely a story where people are telling it generation after generation after generation, but there was probably something happening.

02:02:23.000 There's probably some truth to it.

02:02:25.000 Then you take into account some of the stories from the Old Testament, like the book of Ezekiel, which I'm absolutely fascinated by.

02:02:31.000 Book of Ezekiel and his account of the wheel within a wheel and the fire flashing forth continually and in the midst of the fire as it were gleaming metal.

02:02:40.000 Like, what the hell is that?

02:02:42.000 Like, what is that?

02:02:43.000 Like, what are these stories?

02:02:45.000 And in the midst of this gleaming metal, there's the likeness of four living creatures.

02:02:51.000 Like, okay, they darted to and fro like the appearance of a flash of lightning.

02:02:56.000 Okay, what is that?

02:02:57.000 Like, what are they, what were they trying to say?

02:03:00.000 And what was the original experience that people documented that was so important?

02:03:05.000 And it might have been a lot more similar to these UFO experiences.

02:03:08.000 That's the point.

02:03:09.000 Yeah, I think this is one of the things that Tucker goes back to.

02:03:12.000 The Christian story is so beautiful and so important.

02:03:17.000 You know, Rene Girard's view of Christianity as really stopping the cycle of scapegoating.

02:03:23.000 You know, scapegoating where, and I'm seeing it right now as part of the reason we've been pushing back against the moral panic on Epstein, is that you scapegoat the thing.

02:03:32.000 You know, traditionally it literally was a goat, but you scapegoat the person or whatever.

02:03:35.000 But if it originally was a goat?

02:03:36.000 It really was a goat, yeah.

02:03:38.000 It was a goat, yeah.

02:03:39.000 Really?

02:03:39.000 Yeah, it would carry the sins of the community.

02:03:42.000 Are you sacrificing it? 0.94

02:03:43.000 Yeah, I think you would send it away to die or something.

02:03:45.000 Oh, but over time, it became a matter of time.

02:03:47.000 Is that what a scapegoat was?

02:03:48.000 Yeah.

02:03:49.000 Oh.

02:03:50.000 Yeah.

02:03:50.000 Interesting.

02:03:51.000 Yeah.

02:03:53.000 But generally.

02:03:54.000 Goats for the devil. 0.90

02:03:55.000 Goats are everything.

02:03:56.000 Goats get a bad rap.

02:03:57.000 Goats are in your lobby, aren't they?

02:03:59.000 Those are elk.

02:04:00.000 No, in your lobby.

02:04:02.000 Big difference.

02:04:03.000 Yeah, but I mean, so Christianity puts an end to that. 0.93

02:04:06.000 It says, stop scapegoating.

02:04:08.000 I mean, they scapegoated Jesus, really.

02:04:10.000 I mean, you kind of go, you scapegoat.

02:04:12.000 The purpose of the scapegoating was for the community to unite the community and scapegoat to put all of its sins on one thing and then kill it or get rid of it.

02:04:23.000 And that was the way the community would restore unity.

02:04:25.000 Christianity said, no, we're not going to do it that way.

02:04:30.000 That's immoral.

02:04:31.000 And so, you know, he with the, you know, without sin should be the first to cast a stone.

02:04:36.000 Jesus wasn't saying that prostitution was good or anything.

02:04:39.000 He was saying that we should not be scapegoating.

02:04:42.000 You know, you've got sins too.

02:04:44.000 So don't scapegoat this person.

02:04:46.000 That's a really radical moment in human history.

02:04:48.000 And it really is what allowed humans to spread.

02:04:51.000 It creates a universal.

02:04:52.000 I mean, Christianity is the first universal.

02:04:54.000 It's really universal religion.

02:04:55.000 Maybe it's not the only, but it's a universal religion.

02:04:58.000 It says everybody is a child of God and it's evangelical and it wants other people to become Christian.

02:05:04.000 That's very, that's different from other.

02:05:06.000 Other religions where we're like, this is my God. 1.00

02:05:07.000 I've got my own God here and we're the best and you suck. 0.99

02:05:11.000 And they make it very difficult to join. 0.99

02:05:12.000 Yeah.

02:05:13.000 And it's not to say that Christians, you know, obviously there was fighting the Muslims and there's some interesting revisionism there, but it's a beautiful religion.

02:05:22.000 Those terrible things have been done under the guise of Christianity. 0.99

02:05:27.000 If you listen to the teachings of Jesus Christ, they're not following his teachings.

02:05:31.000 So it's like that's just human behavior that they have tagged on to Christianity.

02:05:37.000 So when people say Christianity is responsible for horrible atrocities, I say no.

02:05:41.000 I say humans are.

02:05:43.000 Because if it is actually Christianity, you would be following the teachings of Christ and there would be none of those things. 0.99

02:05:49.000 I mean, anti-Semitism is not Christian.

02:05:52.000 So true Christianity is not that. 0.97

02:05:52.000 Right. 0.97

02:05:56.000 So I think it's lovely, and I hope there's a revival of some of it.

02:06:00.000 I'm not sure there is.

02:06:01.000 I think there is more now than before.

02:06:03.000 There's a lot of young people that are getting into Christianity.

02:06:07.000 I think it's good to, I think it's also, I mean, it's interesting with the UFO thing.

02:06:11.000 It's an awareness that there's a higher power.

02:06:13.000 So one can sort of say, look, the UFO thing, it's not the same as Christianity or whatever.

02:06:16.000 But this awareness that like we're not, like there's something else going on.

02:06:20.000 There's something more.

02:06:21.000 There's something higher than us and that we should be humble in front of, in the face of this just gigantic mystery.

02:06:27.000 I think that puts us in a better mentality.

02:06:30.000 It certainly does.

02:06:31.000 And if anything, if he's not the Son of God, if this was an actual historical figure, what an insanely wise human being who didn't have these thoughts that are inherent to all of us of vengeance and lust and greed.

02:06:47.000 He has none of these.

02:06:49.000 So radical.

02:06:50.000 Also, you've heard it said before that you should, you know, love your friends and hate your enemies.

02:06:55.000 I say to you, you know, you should love your enemies.

02:06:57.000 I mean, that's just like the hardest.

02:07:01.000 I'm not there.

02:07:02.000 I think very few people are there.

02:07:04.000 But it's certainly the right aspiration.

02:07:07.000 Yes.

02:07:08.000 Yeah, it's the right aspiration.

02:07:10.000 And Tucker thinks that this whole UFO thing is somehow connected to the spiritual realm and that we're – Well, because we've been told for so long that there is no spiritual realm.

02:07:20.000 That spiritual realm is just a mental illness.

02:07:23.000 You know, it's like, I love how he's like the Yahweh thing. 1.00

02:07:23.000 Right. 1.00

02:07:25.000 He's like. 1.00

02:07:26.000 But the problem with the people that tell you that are all mentally ill. 0.99

02:07:28.000 They're all very unhappy. 0.99

02:07:30.000 Like, atheists, like secular, like hardcore atheists are some of the most unhappy, depressed people I know. 0.96

02:07:37.000 I don't see like incredibly happy, unless they do a lot of mushrooms.

02:07:40.000 And those people tend to not be atheists anymore.

02:07:43.000 That's the one weird thing.

02:07:44.000 People that have had like intense breakthrough psychedelic experiences, one of the first things they go, maybe there is a God.

02:07:50.000 Like maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

02:07:53.000 Because if I just experienced that and that's a real thing that you could have while alive on earth where you are confronted with divine wisdom and love in some weird, strange form.

02:08:05.000 You know, when there's a lot of people that believe that that's the source of a lot of religious experiences.

02:08:09.000 And instead of alienating and making those things illegal, we should study them and make them a part of the religious experience because it's probably what they were originally.

02:08:21.000 Well, that's right.

02:08:22.000 And so now that people are having spiritual experiences with UFOs, it's wonderful.

02:08:25.000 And they should talk about them and kindle them.

02:08:28.000 I think the thing about psychedelics that's so interesting is that, at least my experience with them, was that you become, you don't become so attached to your ideas and your beliefs.

02:08:39.000 And so, which is a big problem in our society, is people that get too attached to their egos get attached to their beliefs as opposed to like, oh, I thought that.

02:08:47.000 I mean, I've made my whole career out of being wrong about things and then correcting them.

02:08:52.000 But I think it's hard because you do, it's really great quality.

02:08:56.000 It's thank you.

02:08:57.000 It's a very, but it's still, I hate it.

02:08:59.000 I hate being wrong.

02:09:00.000 It's totally natural to hate it.

02:09:03.000 But I do think like having a practice that makes you go, you are not your beliefs.

02:09:08.000 There's something there.

02:09:09.000 You have an existence separate from the things that you wrote on your blog or you wrote on X, and just don't be so attached to them.

02:09:16.000 Right.

02:09:16.000 Don't make them your identity.

02:09:18.000 Yeah.

02:09:19.000 And that it's, it's, it's actually, there's something really quite, there's an awful part of when you feel like you got something wrong.

02:09:25.000 But then there's another part where you're like, oh, it feels good to get it right.

02:09:28.000 And you feel clean.

02:09:29.000 And that's like, that's what, that's what we should be going for.

02:09:32.000 But it does require, for me, being humble about my limitations before some higher power is really important place to begin.

02:09:40.000 Because if you think there's no higher power or that the other one is like souls, we don't talk about souls enough.

02:09:46.000 A new friend of mine at the university was talking about how important it is to really care for your soul and to care about other people's souls.

02:09:55.000 That's one of the things that Christianity is so good at: that you have something divine inside of you connected to something divine outside of you and that your behaviors affect its treatment. 0.94

02:10:02.000 And when you tell people that you're just, you know, a meat suit and you're just worm food and your life doesn't matter and that it's all just random and pointless, that's a terrible story.

02:10:17.000 It makes people feel terrible.

02:10:19.000 But when you kind of go, no, you have, there was one of the most beautiful, I loved all the Charlie Kirk videos that went out after his death because there were so many ones where he had these beautiful moments.

02:10:26.000 But he's talking to these women that are doing the OnlyFans.

02:10:28.000 Did you see that one?

02:10:30.000 And they're describing, they're trying to shock him and saying just really kind of crude things about their sexuality and how like the sex they have, it doesn't matter to them.

02:10:39.000 And he was like, I just don't believe that.

02:10:40.000 I think you have a soul.

02:10:42.000 I think God has a purpose for you.

02:10:44.000 What a much lovelier way to engage somebody.

02:10:48.000 And it wasn't a, he didn't feel like he was morally condemning them.

02:10:51.000 Right.

02:10:51.000 He was actually saying God loves you.

02:10:53.000 And so for me, Christianity brings, if that is the part of Christianity that I think is so special.

02:10:59.000 But it is hard.

02:11:00.000 I mean, one of the things that this anthropologist that I'm really into is talking about, she says, it's the more the God, the more different the God is from humans, the harder it is to believe in them.

02:11:09.000 And so people like Christians in particular, she would talk about their, even evangelical ones, are always complaining about not believing enough and not having enough faith.

02:11:17.000 Because it is so hard, because you do have the Holocaust problem, the problem of evil. 0.98

02:11:21.000 Why, if the God is all powerful and all good, is he allowing the Holocaust? 0.95

02:11:24.000 Why do you love Hiroshima?

02:11:25.000 Why, you know, with these terrible things.

02:11:27.000 And part of the answer for Christians has been, well, because he wants us to exercise free will and to be in touch with our better sides and to realize our potential as moral humans and moral souls.

02:11:40.000 And that's a pretty good answer.

02:11:42.000 But it is, I find, I was glad to hear that her say that people struggle with it because I certainly do as well.

02:11:48.000 Well, I mean, I think everyone struggles with it.

02:11:52.000 I'm just, I'm really fascinated by it.

02:11:55.000 I'm fascinated by it because when I go to church and I listen to them talk about various passages in the Bible, my mindset is always like, what was the real experience?

02:12:06.000 Like, what are we missing out of these tales?

02:12:10.000 What are we missing out of these recounting of these experiences?

02:12:14.000 What happened?

02:12:15.000 I don't think it was nothing.

02:12:17.000 I really don't.

02:12:18.000 Do you think there's something real to it?

02:12:20.000 And again, it works.

02:12:24.000 That's the main one for me.

02:12:26.000 It's like, you want to live a better life?

02:12:27.000 Like, if you live as a Christian, you'll have a better life.

02:12:30.000 You'll have a more love-filled, more wonderful life.

02:12:33.000 That's real.

02:12:34.000 And this idea that, oh, it's fairy tales.

02:12:39.000 Is it if it's a method for life that gives you a more rich and loving and peaceful life, isn't that better for everybody?

02:12:48.000 Isn't that a real thing?

02:12:50.000 That's a real thing.

02:12:52.000 There's no way you can know whether or not any of the stories in the Bible happened exactly as described.

02:12:58.000 We can't know.

02:12:59.000 So you have to have this leap of faith.

02:13:02.000 You know, and it gets weird.

02:13:03.000 Like, Jesus comes back on a white horse.

02:13:05.000 Like, hey, slow down.

02:13:07.000 You know, like Revelations.

02:13:08.000 Book of Revelations is weird.

02:13:10.000 But it's like, what's really weird is some of these people that think that what's going on in Iran is to light the fire to bring, to have Jesus return, to light the signal fire.

02:13:22.000 Like, did you hear those recountings by these non-commissioned officers that went into these briefings, combat briefings?

02:13:30.000 Oh, no.

02:13:31.000 Here's one of them.

02:13:31.000 Okay.

02:13:32.000 Because I say because it's so kooky that I read it and I was like, wait, what the fuck did they say to him? 0.99

02:13:38.000 Because it's so crazy. 0.99

02:13:40.000 I tend to be anti-apocalyptic.

02:13:42.000 My knee jerk is anti-apocalyptic because I don't see apocalyptic movements doing a lot of good in the world.

02:13:49.000 Yeah, that's probably better off.

02:13:51.000 Most of the, I think a lot of Christians have ignored the book of Revelations.

02:13:57.000 Yeah, I think focusing too heavily on that particular book probably leads to bad outcomes.

02:14:01.000 Okay, so this was the story that I read.

02:14:02.000 This was in Yahoo.

02:14:04.000 I'll send this to you, Jeremy, so you can get this so we can put this up on the board.

02:14:09.000 Did you find the thing?

02:14:10.000 Okay.

02:14:11.000 He urged us to tell our troops that this was all part of God's.

02:14:14.000 Now, this is the guy who goes through, this is a combat readiness briefing.

02:14:18.000 Urged us to tell our troops this is all part of God's plan.

02:14:22.000 And he specifically referenced numerous citations of the book of Revelations referring to Armageddon and the imminent return of Jesus Christ.

02:14:29.000 He said that President Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to earth.

02:14:39.000 And they said that the guy was saying this had a giant smile on his face, which made it all the weirder.

02:14:43.000 Like, see if you could find that in there.

02:14:46.000 Does it say that?

02:14:48.000 No, it's not in that particular article.

02:14:50.000 Oh, this is just military.

02:14:51.000 Sounds like someone complained about it.

02:14:52.000 Oh, yeah, a bunch of people complained.

02:14:53.000 There's actually a lawsuit.

02:14:56.000 Religious freedom law.

02:14:56.000 Yeah.

02:14:57.000 You risk the whole self-fulfilling prophecy with that one.

02:15:00.000 Well, it's all just like, what are you doing?

02:15:01.000 Wait a second.

02:15:02.000 What are you doing?

02:15:03.000 What machines, what weapons do you control? 1.00

02:15:05.000 Yeah, there's a lot of fucking religious kooks. 0.99

02:15:08.000 So it's not just, and also, that is not how Jesus Christ would handle it. 1.00

02:15:12.000 Let's go bomb Iran. 1.00

02:15:13.000 That's how Jesus is going to come back.

02:15:14.000 Like, do you think he would tell you that's the right way to do it?

02:15:16.000 Like, how did you interpret that?

02:15:19.000 Jesus-y. 0.70

02:15:20.000 Like, how did you interpret that in the text?

02:15:22.000 Okay, before we, so we're deep into this show.

02:15:25.000 So the Epstein stuff.

02:15:27.000 All right.

02:15:27.000 So what is your take on this?

02:15:29.000 All right.

02:15:29.000 Well, so I. You've changed your position?

02:15:31.000 Yeah, I've changed.

02:15:32.000 I think I spent a bunch of time with the files.

02:15:36.000 I will say I think I did do a piece where I do think that the shrimp is a code word for young women.

02:15:43.000 I'm pretty sure about that.

02:15:44.000 What do you think pizza is a code word for?

02:15:45.000 Well, that was – OK.

02:15:47.000 So then I did a – I did – I had read this article about code words in the Epstein files and I did the shrimps.

02:15:52.000 And then I had some stuff about pizza and grape juice in there, about grape soda.

02:15:56.000 And my co-author, Alex, was like, dude, you can't go.

02:15:58.000 If you can't go full Pizzagate, you got to like, so we kept it out.

02:16:02.000 And then the Times mentioned the pizza thing.

02:16:05.000 So I wrote some on X about it, but I ended up taking it down because I was like, I don't really know.

02:16:10.000 This one, I mean, what weirded me about the pizza one was where his urologist was like, take your erection dysfunction pills, and then we'll go out and get pizza and grape soda.

02:16:21.000 And I was like, that is creepy, you know, as hell.

02:16:25.000 Yeah.

02:16:26.000 So, but I don't, the shrimp one, I'm like, 95% of that means young women because you just see how they talk about it.

02:16:32.000 And I think I proved it in my piece.

02:16:34.000 There's other ones, like, people are like, the jerky is like cannibalism and whatever.

02:16:38.000 It's like, well, it didn't help that the restaurant owner was like, the restaurant's name was like cannibal and something.

02:16:44.000 But I'm skeptical that that's what that was. 0.96

02:16:48.000 Well, you would be skeptical unless you were part of some of these fucking bizarre satanic rituals and then you would go, oh my God, it's real. 0.97

02:16:54.000 Like there are, look, people have sacrificed people, right? 0.99

02:16:59.000 Can we agree to that?

02:17:00.000 In human history?

02:17:01.000 Yeah, sure, of course.

02:17:02.000 And there have been satanic rituals throughout history.

02:17:05.000 Can we agree to that?

02:17:06.000 Sure.

02:17:06.000 Okay.

02:17:07.000 So there has been cannibalism in history?

02:17:10.000 We agree to that?

02:17:11.000 Okay.

02:17:11.000 Unfortunately, a lot, actually.

02:17:12.000 There was a lot, yeah.

02:17:14.000 Why wouldn't we think they're talking about that?

02:17:16.000 We don't want to believe it, right?

02:17:18.000 Is that what it is? 0.99

02:17:19.000 I don't want to believe that these people, these multi-millionaires and billionaires that go to this island and engage in all this crazy shit aren't doing something like child sacrifice or cannibalism. 0.99

02:17:19.000 No. 0.99

02:17:32.000 Well, let's start with the thing that I think a lot of us thought it was, which is that it was an intelligence community sex blackmail operation.

02:17:40.000 That's what made it for me a story.

02:17:44.000 I mean, a creepy guy doing creepy things.

02:17:47.000 There's just, that's, we call that a dog bites man story.

02:17:50.000 You know, what makes it a man-bites dog story is like, is that you kind of go, wow, it's like Mossad and CIA running a honeypot.

02:17:56.000 I mean, that's the premise of Whitley Webb's two-volume book, One Nation Under Blackmail.

02:18:02.000 But when you look at it, like, we don't see that.

02:18:06.000 We see one case where Epstein emails himself something that sounds like it's in the voice of the Bill Gates science advisor, Boris Karsich, I believe is the name.

02:18:16.000 And in it, they talk about, oh, you know, it's the famous email where he says, oh, you know, I got STDs.

02:18:22.000 It says you got STDs from Russian hookers or from Russian women, and then you tried to slip antibiotics, or you wanted me to slip antibiotics in Melinda's drink. 1.00

02:18:31.000 And Melinda, like, asked her about it. 0.96

02:18:33.000 It was awful.

02:18:35.000 It doesn't like, that's not, it's weird what that is.

02:18:38.000 So first of all, it's not even clear.

02:18:40.000 We're just talking about emails.

02:18:40.000 Hold on a second.

02:18:42.000 Right.

02:18:43.000 Right?

02:18:44.000 So who knows what was said?

02:18:47.000 Just from the email, we know that there at least implies that he's got dirt on people and that he is exercising, is doing something with this dirt that he has on Epstein or on Bill Gates, rather.

02:19:02.000 Yeah, although.

02:19:03.000 So we're very limited in the amount of data that we possess.

02:19:08.000 Right.

02:19:08.000 Because we just have emails between him and other people.

02:19:11.000 Inside those emails, we find a lot of creepy shit. 0.99

02:19:14.000 We find that one description where he was talking to this woman where she said, I'm doing and investigating a story about an island where they bring children for sex. 0.99

02:19:25.000 And he goes, she almost had a heart attack when I told her that person is me.

02:19:29.000 Well, he was talking about the rumors and gossip about him. 0.61

02:19:33.000 But he wasn't saying that he's bringing children to his island for sex.

02:19:36.000 But that is what he said.

02:19:37.000 But if you look at the text.

02:19:38.000 No, he said they're talking about me.

02:19:40.000 No.

02:19:40.000 No, no, no.

02:19:41.000 She said, I'm doing a story on a guy who brings children to his island for sex. 0.78

02:19:50.000 And he says she almost had a heart attack when I told her that person is me.

02:19:55.000 The person that – my interest is – You're being charitable.

02:19:59.000 But you're being charitable because that's not what the text says.

02:20:02.000 What the text says is someone's bringing children to an island.

02:20:06.000 I told her that person was me. 0.99

02:20:08.000 He didn't say, I told her that's a bullshit rumor. 0.89

02:20:11.000 I let her know that's not true. 0.97

02:20:13.000 But that's very much in his style.

02:20:14.000 I mean, look, look, let's back up to the intelligence.

02:20:16.000 But wait a minute.

02:20:17.000 Why would you dismiss this?

02:20:19.000 We can pull it up and look at it.

02:20:20.000 I just think what we see from the files, and I think Mike Bence has sort of pointed out the ways in which Epstein might have been a contractor or a financier or somebody hiding money for the intelligence community.

02:20:33.000 Beyond that, I don't see any evidence that he was doing much for the intelligence community, if at all.

02:20:40.000 But you're only getting emails and only half of the emails, right?

02:20:45.000 So there's only three million emails that have been released.

02:20:48.000 There's another 3 million that the FBI possesses that they're not releasing, right?

02:20:51.000 100%.

02:20:52.000 It's possible.

02:20:53.000 So we're making that.

02:20:54.000 Why would you draw any conclusions based on only 50% of the data?

02:20:58.000 And then if there is 50% of the data that hasn't been released, why?

02:21:02.000 Is that way worse? 0.99

02:21:04.000 Because this stuff is fucking nuts. 1.00

02:21:06.000 Like, this is nuts. 1.00

02:21:08.000 Like, take your erection pills so we can go get grape soda. 0.98

02:21:12.000 Okay, what? 0.94

02:21:13.000 And it's weird. 0.95

02:21:14.000 This lady is investigating a place where they, an I own where they bring children for sex. 1.00

02:21:18.000 I told her it was me. 0.63

02:21:19.000 What?

02:21:19.000 Well, we should put that one up first.

02:21:21.000 I want to look at one.

02:21:21.000 Okay.

02:21:22.000 I mean, here you're talking about.

02:21:27.000 So, first of all, I think the picture is of a guy that is fully in charge of his life.

02:21:35.000 And he's doing, he's like, he is like amazing at getting people to love him and care about him.

02:21:40.000 People call him their best friend.

02:21:42.000 In Florida, clearly he was abusing girls and was busted for that. 0.99

02:21:48.000 I think he was doing that because he's a pervert. 0.76

02:21:50.000 I don't think I didn't see, I don't see blackmail coming out of that.

02:21:53.000 And then you get to later, and you've got, okay, you've got the Bill Gates thing, which doesn't even appear to be from Epstein.

02:22:00.000 It appears to be for Boris.

02:22:02.000 And remember, Boris, the science advisor, wanted Gates to pay for a bigger apartment for him in New York.

02:22:07.000 It appeared to be part of him threatening Gates to get something that Boris wanted.

02:22:12.000 So maybe Epstein was advising him on it.

02:22:14.000 But I mean, to have a the other thing I'm struck by these emails, Joe, is that there are so many different attorneys, people of the FBI, people in the Eastern District, the Southern District, the Florida Southern District.

02:22:28.000 They would all have to be in on it.

02:22:30.000 And I'm skeptical because Epstein.

02:22:32.000 Why would they all have to be in on it?

02:22:33.000 Well, because they would be, they're in these, I mean, they're in this, they're reviewing the information.

02:22:36.000 They're trying to bring, you know, they're trying to bring action against him.

02:22:41.000 Well, it depends on who are the powerful people that are implicated and what kind of influence they have over what gets released and what doesn't get released.

02:22:50.000 Clearly, names were redacted that are powerful people that are not victims.

02:22:55.000 So that shows you right there that there's some influence.

02:22:58.000 But there's a reason to do that.

02:22:59.000 Why?

02:23:00.000 Because they're not guilty.

02:23:02.000 Okay, what about the one where the guy says, where Epstein says, I like the torture video?

02:23:08.000 He probably did.

02:23:09.000 I think someone did find the torture video.

02:23:11.000 Why would you redact the name of the person who sent you a torture video?

02:23:14.000 And that's if you're not trying to protect a powerful person.

02:23:16.000 Yeah, that's the Sultan, is that right?

02:23:18.000 Okay, but that was someone had to just figure that out.

02:23:21.000 I mean, look, redactions are sloppy.

02:23:24.000 No, no, no.

02:23:24.000 That's evidence that you're trying to protect a powerful person.

02:23:28.000 Well, but they didn't, though, in a lot of cases.

02:23:30.000 But they did right there.

02:23:31.000 Yeah, I mean, the redactions, I mean, they were making them.

02:23:34.000 I mean, it was like powerful people's names.

02:23:38.000 Yeah, but I mean, I mean, look at, like, we're in the midst, I mean, literally the people that are being canceled for this, like Peter Attia, these people are like victims of a, we're in the middle of a complete, you know, you know, moral panic.

02:23:50.000 I mean, we're now, it's like Me Too version two.

02:23:53.000 I mean, people are having to leave boards.

02:23:54.000 I mean, look, these are people I don't like.

02:23:56.000 I'll just be honest.

02:23:56.000 Like, if part of me hesitated because I don't like Larry Summers.

02:23:59.000 I don't like Bill Gates.

02:24:01.000 I don't care about Sarah Ferguson.

02:24:04.000 You know, I didn't say anything.

02:24:05.000 Then they came for Peter Attia.

02:24:08.000 You know, it's a little bit like Peter Attia, like, he didn't do anything wrong.

02:24:13.000 He just lost his job with CBS.

02:24:16.000 And, you know, he's sort of now there under this cloud.

02:24:19.000 And people go, oh, but he was in the hospital and his wife was, or he was with Epstein.

02:24:22.000 His wife was in the hospital.

02:24:23.000 We don't, like, what are we doing here?

02:24:24.000 Like, we're getting involved in Peter Attia's personal life.

02:24:28.000 And so, but he has to get fired for that.

02:24:31.000 I mean, it's gone way too far.

02:24:33.000 Sarah Ferguson had to step down, even though she said terror.

02:24:35.000 I mean, these people, I don't like them.

02:24:37.000 Like, these are not people I agree with or think their behavior is, but I don't see.

02:24:43.000 So they're not guilty of crime.

02:24:45.000 Yeah, they're not.

02:24:45.000 I don't see it.

02:24:46.000 Yeah, they're not.

02:24:47.000 They were all making a big deal out of like, well, so first of all, let me just say, I'm glad they released the files.

02:24:50.000 Tighten that thing down. 1.00

02:24:51.000 I think they keep moving that thing around.

02:24:54.000 Every time you do it, it bumps.

02:24:56.000 It's not going to tick.

02:25:00.000 I think like, you know, they were, I mean, I'm glad the files were released.

02:25:04.000 There was definitely problems with the redactions.

02:25:06.000 There was also a case where the members of Congress were trying to get stuff redacted.

02:25:09.000 Names got redacted of people that, like, I know in one case, there were people that were getting licenses for guns that had nothing to do with Epstein on a list.

02:25:17.000 In another case, other people's names were revealed who were not guilty of anything.

02:25:21.000 So that's why you protect those people.

02:25:24.000 I think you go, everybody, the logic right now is that anybody who had any interaction with Epstein had to have known of all the abuse he was doing and are somehow responsible for it.

02:25:34.000 But maybe that's not right.

02:25:35.000 Okay, but a lot of these people were hanging out with him and doing business with him after he was arrested.

02:25:39.000 So this is all it was very public.

02:25:42.000 OK, so then what is our view of people that do the crime and serve the time?

02:25:48.000 I mean, the left view has been that.

02:25:51.000 He didn't serve any time.

02:25:51.000 Stop right there.

02:25:53.000 He served a year.

02:25:54.000 Okay.

02:25:55.000 He did not go to jail for a year.

02:25:56.000 You know, he did house arrests.

02:25:58.000 It was a very sweetheart deal.

02:25:58.000 Yes.

02:26:00.000 And the prosecuting, was it the prosecuting attorney or whoever it was, was told that he was intelligence.

02:26:05.000 And this is why they were giving away.

02:26:08.000 By the way, I looked into that.

02:26:09.000 Yeah.

02:26:09.000 Yeah, we looked into that one, and that was heard secondhand.

02:26:14.000 So we don't even, that wasn't even heard from Acosta directly.

02:26:17.000 Someone said that they heard Acosta say that and they told Vicki Warden, I believe her source is anonymous.

02:26:22.000 Yeah.

02:26:23.000 So that's weak.

02:26:24.000 And, you know, Mike, I mean, when Mike Benz was in here, and Mike has done a deep dive, this, he's sort of like, look, at best, you get Epstein tied up with intelligence with the Iran-Contra stuff.

02:26:33.000 Right.

02:26:33.000 But he wasn't, I mean, there's two things to see here.

02:26:35.000 With his relationship to the intelligence community, he was at best a contractor financier, which means he's not an important player in deciding covert clandestine operations.

02:26:44.000 It was the, it's, you know, the head of state.

02:26:46.000 He said he killed cold fusion.

02:26:49.000 I mean.

02:26:50.000 He said he killed Pond's, his work on cold fusion.

02:26:55.000 I mean, I don't know.

02:26:57.000 Did he?

02:26:58.000 I mean, Cold Fusion, they keep doing it, right?

02:27:00.000 No, they haven't done it yet.

02:27:01.000 Well, I know Carl Page.

02:27:03.000 The founder, the brother of the.

02:27:04.000 But he stated that he killed Cold Fusion research.

02:27:08.000 Because he cut off funding for it?

02:27:10.000 Yeah.

02:27:11.000 He manipulated people.

02:27:13.000 I don't know that.

02:27:15.000 They say he killed it.

02:27:16.000 Why would he kill it?

02:27:17.000 Because it didn't work.

02:27:18.000 Or maybe it did work and it's problematic that it does work because it kills all these people that have all this other money in various energy modalities.

02:27:25.000 I just, I mean, I go, fusion is like a whole, I mean, the idea that we have a secret, that we've secretly tapped cold fusion and are hiding it for some reason.

02:27:33.000 Or that he was on the way to breaking through to cold fusion and then they killed all of his research.

02:27:38.000 But why?

02:27:39.000 You don't think that could be done?

02:27:40.000 Because there's so many people that have money and all these other types of energy.

02:27:44.000 I just don't buy that you could.

02:27:46.000 First of all, that technology is super difficult.

02:27:49.000 To get nuclear fission was this enormous undertaking, huge numbers of people.

02:27:54.000 The cold fusion stuff.

02:27:55.000 The cold fusion stuff was always.

02:27:56.000 The cold fusion stuff is really fringe.

02:27:59.000 I mean, it was like, we're going to be in the lab and doing cold.

02:28:01.000 But if you're not a physicist, so how do you know that?

02:28:04.000 Well, I mean, I interview a lot of physicists and talk about it.

02:28:06.000 I mean, the big fusion projects are incredibly difficult.

02:28:09.000 They keep announcing advances in them.

02:28:11.000 They can't get them.

02:28:12.000 Cold Fusion is not even considered a mainstream fusion project.

02:28:16.000 So to assume that there's some secret energy.

02:28:19.000 I just think this is why I have a problem with the whole reverse engineering thing.

02:28:22.000 I just kind of go, you'd have to have so many people working on it and covering it up for such a long time.

02:28:27.000 I don't know how you get away with that.

02:28:29.000 Well, what if he was on the verge of a breakthrough, but this guy steps in and stops funding and puts some leverage on the university?

02:28:37.000 Clearly, he had dirt on a bunch of people that were at high levels of many universities.

02:28:41.000 That's why a bunch of these guys had to step down.

02:28:44.000 Didn't the head of Harvard step down?

02:28:45.000 I think it's exaggerated.

02:28:46.000 Didn't the head of Harvard step down?

02:28:48.000 Because of him?

02:28:50.000 Wasn't there a connection between Jeffrey Epstein?

02:28:52.000 Well, I mean, Larry Summers, you mean?

02:28:53.000 Yeah.

02:28:54.000 Well, Larry Summers was, you know, he had to step down because he made those remarks about women as president, and then he just had to step down as professor.

02:29:02.000 And I say this, look, I say this genuinely, as someone that is not a Larry Summers fan, I don't think, I think it's ugly what he did.

02:29:09.000 It's terrible.

02:29:09.000 He was trying to get advice from Larry Summers about how to bet a Chinese economist, and they were gross in their emails, and it's terrible.

02:29:16.000 But I don't think that you lose a job at Harvard over that.

02:29:18.000 I don't think that Peter Tia should lose his job at CBS over that.

02:29:22.000 That's the problem.

02:29:24.000 And I agree.

02:29:25.000 I see what you're saying.

02:29:26.000 But what I'm saying is clearly he had influence over some very high and powerful people.

02:29:32.000 He also exaggerated his influence.

02:29:35.000 He took a lot of credit for Santa Fe Institute, which was a lot of other people.

02:29:39.000 I mean, he's really, he's really interesting and smart.

02:29:42.000 Like, he gave a thing to Bannon, talking to Bannon about it.

02:29:45.000 That was really interesting.

02:29:46.000 But he was also, Steve Pinker talked about him as a kibitzer, like a kind of a bullshitter.

02:29:52.000 And he was like, we also saw in the files, I think it really overlooked.

02:29:55.000 We saw how he made his money.

02:29:57.000 Like, he needed to get a deal with the Department of Justice for his client, Ariana de Rothschild.

02:30:04.000 He hires Catherine Rumler, who was Obama's White House chief counsel, and she goes and makes a deal at the Department of Justice: $45 million fine for the Rothschilds, $10 million for Catherine Rummler, $25 million for Jeffrey Epstein.

02:30:18.000 Everyone's like, where did his money come from?

02:30:20.000 Doing deals like that.

02:30:21.000 Like, you realize, I mean, one of the things, Succession actually had a little subplot about it.

02:30:26.000 Like, there's a few people in the world that do these crazy, high-level deals, like often like mergers and acquisitions, that have these obscene fees because they're taking some tiny percentage.

02:30:36.000 Epstein was operating.

02:30:38.000 I think the thing we didn't realize is that when you read the files, is the levels at which Epstein was operating.

02:30:43.000 I mean, his social and emotional intelligence is just off the charts, which is often rare among somebody that's that good analytically, someone that really understands like investments in the economy to be so.

02:30:55.000 I mean, he was a master manipulator.

02:30:57.000 So I don't think it's fair to say to people, you had an association with him after he was convicted of this crime.

02:31:07.000 Rich guys, look, we have a totally separate system of justice for rich people.

02:31:11.000 I think we've known that for a really long time.

02:31:13.000 It's terrible.

02:31:14.000 I condemn it.

02:31:15.000 We should find solutions to it.

02:31:17.000 That's what Epstein used to get out of it.

02:31:19.000 I don't see any evidence that intelligence helped him.

02:31:22.000 You know, we got other problems.

02:31:23.000 The victims, Virginia Jaffree.

02:31:26.000 She claimed that she had sex with Dershowitz.

02:31:28.000 She then goes, oh, I was wrong about that.

02:31:30.000 I mean, there's a lot of those victim testimonials that are untrustworthy. 0.92

02:31:34.000 So you get yourself in a situation where you start to put like, oh, some of them are probably prostitutes. 0.90

02:31:40.000 Yeah.

02:31:41.000 And that's the other one: I did some reporting where we helped to, we found a 14-year-old girl who was being trafficked on the streets.

02:31:48.000 She had turned 15 in the process of us reporting on it.

02:31:52.000 You know, we're recovering these PIs.

02:31:53.000 They get the police involved.

02:31:54.000 The police go get her.

02:31:56.000 She's orphaned.

02:31:58.000 She goes back and lives with her aunt.

02:32:00.000 She's back on the street, voluntarily back on the street.

02:32:02.000 Nobody wants to talk about it.

02:32:04.000 It's like you go rescue people and they're in that world.

02:32:08.000 So these situations are much more complex.

02:32:12.000 I think the final thing on Epstein that kind of made me question is that I, like a lot of other people, had assumed that someone murdered him.

02:32:18.000 But you start looking at the evidence for that.

02:32:20.000 Look, maybe there more will come out.

02:32:22.000 And even this last round, last few days, there's some new things that people point to, but they actually are not actually evidence of it.

02:32:29.000 They said, you know, Epstein's brother's attorney or Epstein's brother's examiner said that he broke his hyoid bone, and the hyoid bone is not usually broken in hangings, only in strangulations.

02:32:42.000 Actually, it is broken in hangings, particularly for older people.

02:32:44.000 It's broken in three places.

02:32:45.000 Yeah, and that, I mean, and that's like.

02:32:47.000 And it's low on his neck.

02:32:48.000 Yeah, and they say, and that happens.

02:32:50.000 Also, the lady who is the guard deposited money into her car. 0.87

02:32:54.000 I saw that.

02:32:55.000 But that doesn't, what does that mean?

02:32:56.000 Well, she also Googled his name before he got.

02:32:56.000 Okay.

02:33:01.000 All that's totally.

02:33:03.000 Why are you dismissing?

02:33:04.000 I don't understand why you're dismissing this.

02:33:06.000 I'm not dismissing it.

02:33:06.000 Because if you're not.

02:33:07.000 I'm saying that.

02:33:08.000 Well, hold on, you are.

02:33:08.000 But hold on, you are.

02:33:09.000 Because if you do have a guard, and all of a sudden this guard acquires several payments, she made several deposits.

02:33:17.000 One of them was $5,000 just 10 days before he died.

02:33:21.000 And then the cameras are cut, okay?

02:33:24.000 And then they mysteriously don't pay attention to the cell of one of the most important defendants of any case, any gigantic public case involving enormously famous public figures.

02:33:38.000 It could be.

02:33:38.000 And then this guy hangs himself while he's on suicide warning.

02:33:41.000 Now, remember, he tried to commit suicide.

02:33:42.000 I understand, but why are you not letting me finish what I'm saying?

02:33:45.000 Because that alone is weird.

02:33:47.000 That alone is weird.

02:33:48.000 That the cameras are cut, that there's no video of it.

02:33:51.000 The whole thing is weird.

02:33:52.000 You don't think it's weird?

02:33:54.000 Well, I think.

02:33:54.000 You don't think it's weird that this guy just finds a way to hang himself in this cage?

02:34:00.000 I thought I had that same story.

02:34:02.000 I was like, the cameras are cut.

02:34:03.000 The security guards are asleep.

02:34:05.000 All those things are true.

02:34:06.000 All those things are true.

02:34:08.000 It's also true that the cameras went out a long time before that night.

02:34:12.000 It didn't just go out that night before.

02:34:14.000 Security guards fall asleep at night all the time.

02:34:17.000 He attempted suicide, I believe, 18 days before.

02:34:21.000 18 days before he said that his roommate tried to kill him.

02:34:24.000 Did you know that?

02:34:25.000 Do you know his roommate was a cop that had killed four people in contract killings?

02:34:29.000 His cop, roommate, his cellmate, was a murderer.

02:34:34.000 He was a guy who was a drug-dealing cop who had killed four people in contract killings. 1.00

02:34:39.000 And that was his fucking jailmate. 0.99

02:34:41.000 And 18 days before, he said that guy tried to kill him. 1.00

02:34:44.000 But he said that's his.

02:34:45.000 Is there anything else?

02:34:46.000 Look at that guy. 1.00

02:34:47.000 That is his fucking cellmate. 1.00

02:34:49.000 Why would you put a guy who's one of the most high-profile defendants in any case ever in a cell with a hired killer who's a giant gorilla, like this huge fucking jacked Italian guy? 1.00

02:35:02.000 But he wasn't in the cell with him that night. 0.98

02:35:03.000 He was by himself.

02:35:04.000 He was the guy who 18 days before Epstein said tried to kill him.

02:35:09.000 But Epstein tried to kill himself.

02:35:11.000 I don't think there's any doubt about that, right?

02:35:13.000 I don't know if there's, I don't, I've never seen him say it, but I do know that he said that guy tried to kill him, and they found him unresponsive 18 days before.

02:35:22.000 He said that guy tried to kill him.

02:35:25.000 And couldn't he have lied about that?

02:35:26.000 He was trying to get money.

02:35:27.000 Couldn't he have lied about that?

02:35:30.000 Video outside cell during Jeffrey Epstein's first suicide attempt no longer exists.

02:35:34.000 How weird.

02:35:35.000 Yeah.

02:35:36.000 Why would he lie about that?

02:35:37.000 He's in jail.

02:35:38.000 Because he doesn't want to have a cell.

02:35:39.000 Because he doesn't want to have a certainty.

02:35:40.000 He's a guy who he's already saying this guy's trying to extort him.

02:35:42.000 He's already saying this guy's trying to get money from him.

02:35:45.000 And this guy is a known killer.

02:35:47.000 He's killed four people in contract killings.

02:35:50.000 How did you not know about that?

02:35:51.000 I will say it's possible.

02:35:52.000 Hold on.

02:35:53.000 How did you not know about that?

02:35:54.000 I did know about that.

02:35:55.000 You knew about the guy being a contract killer?

02:35:57.000 You knew the man's cellmate?

02:35:58.000 Yeah, I knew that story, but I mean, he didn't have a cellmate at the night of his death, right?

02:36:03.000 That was one of the mistakes they made is that because he was on Supposed Me on Suicide Watch, he was supposed to have a cellmate, didn't have a cellmate.

02:36:09.000 I think that, look, I know, but 18 days before he did have a cellmate, and 18 days before, he said that guy tried to kill him.

02:36:15.000 But 18 days before, he tried to commit suicide.

02:36:17.000 That's my understanding.

02:36:18.000 I don't know if that's true, though.

02:36:19.000 I don't know if that's true.

02:36:21.000 I don't know why they would put him in jail with a contract killer.

02:36:24.000 Well, I mean, how many who's in that jail?

02:36:26.000 Aren't the people in that jail pretty rough? 0.93

02:36:28.000 His cellmate is a contract killer.

02:36:32.000 Why would he be in a cell with a cop who's a contract killer?

02:36:36.000 I mean, aren't there a lot of people?

02:36:38.000 The night Jeffrey Epstein claimed his cellmate tried to kill him.

02:36:40.000 New documents reveal Jeffrey Epstein claimed his cellmate tried to kill him in an incident before his death.

02:36:46.000 Yeah, but we don't.

02:36:47.000 Okay, but that's true.

02:36:50.000 Why are you dismissing it?

02:36:50.000 Yeah.

02:36:52.000 I'm not dismissing it.

02:36:53.000 Joe, you know, maybe more evidence will come out.

02:36:54.000 I'm just saying, look, if you look at the evidence of it.

02:36:56.000 You're looking to dismiss it.

02:36:57.000 No, I'm saying I was confident it was a homicide, and now were you aware of this?

02:37:03.000 Yeah, of course.

02:37:04.000 All that stuff.

02:37:04.000 You were aware that he tried to kill him.

02:37:05.000 Of course, of course.

02:37:07.000 I was aware that he said that.

02:37:09.000 Well, how come you never brought it up before?

02:37:10.000 You seem shocked when I brought it up.

02:37:12.000 Well, because my understanding is it was a suicide attempt 18 days before.

02:37:16.000 Okay.

02:37:16.000 But if he said this guy tried to kill him 18 days before, why didn't you take that into consideration?

02:37:23.000 No, it is.

02:37:24.000 I mean, I'm just saying that was more like that.

02:37:27.000 It doesn't seem like you took it into consideration at all and you're looking to dismiss it.

02:37:30.000 I didn't know.

02:37:31.000 My view earlier was that it was a homicide because the hyoid bone doesn't break when you have hangings.

02:37:39.000 He said he didn't want to commit suicide.

02:37:41.000 The video went out.

02:37:42.000 The security guards are asleep.

02:37:44.000 I mean, there was a huge investigation of this by the inspector general.

02:37:49.000 So the number of people that would have had to been involved in this conspiracy and cover-up is very large.

02:37:54.000 And it's a large number of people who are in this job to be do-gooders.

02:37:59.000 And so I'm very, I mean, that's, look, maybe they're whole.

02:38:01.000 So maybe there was some evidence that they're not in the job to be do-gooders.

02:38:04.000 Oh, yeah, they are.

02:38:05.000 Sometimes they're in the job to be do-gooders.

02:38:08.000 Sometimes they're influenced by very powerful figures that want a particular result.

02:38:13.000 Does that not happen?

02:38:14.000 But we underestimate that.

02:38:15.000 Hold on a second.

02:38:16.000 Does that not happen in the real world?

02:38:17.000 It does, right?

02:38:18.000 And wouldn't you imagine if you're dealing with multiple billionaires that may be compromised by the evidence that this guy's going to relay in a trial, that that would be one of the times that they would want to exert that kind of influence?

02:38:30.000 And like I said, in our piece, we wrote, it's possible.

02:38:30.000 It's possible.

02:38:33.000 But I think at this point, we don't know.

02:38:35.000 I don't think we have the evidence either way.

02:38:37.000 And that's for me, that's the change.

02:38:39.000 I went from, I think it was a homicide to now I don't know.

02:38:42.000 I didn't understand that he committed suicide 18 days before.

02:38:45.000 No, no, no.

02:38:46.000 He didn't commit suicide.

02:38:49.000 His cellmate tried to kill him 18 days before.

02:38:52.000 That's what he said, right?

02:38:54.000 They found him unresponsive.

02:38:57.000 He said, my cellmate tried to kill me.

02:39:00.000 Yeah, but how do we know that?

02:39:01.000 Why would we think so?

02:39:02.000 Okay, and then was it reported that it was an attempted suicide to try to dismiss the fact that his cellmate was trying to kill him?

02:39:09.000 Because they wanted his cellmate to kill him?

02:39:11.000 We don't know.

02:39:12.000 But you can't dismiss that.

02:39:13.000 The psychologists thought he was suicidal.

02:39:16.000 They, you know, I think my understanding, he could have lied about the room.

02:39:20.000 He didn't want to have a roommate.

02:39:22.000 That's like why, and they didn't have a roommate in that case. 1.00

02:39:24.000 They didn't want to have a roommate who's a fucking contract killer. 1.00

02:39:27.000 Who's a sociopathic cop who killed four guys? 1.00

02:39:31.000 But if you're a contract killer and you're in Epstein's cell, why would you want Epstein to die in your cell? 0.98

02:39:39.000 Because you want to kill him, because people are going to give you extra cigarettes at the commissary. 1.00

02:39:43.000 Who fucking knows? 1.00

02:39:43.000 Do we have any evidence? 1.00

02:39:44.000 No, but who fucking knows? 0.98

02:39:45.000 We don't know. 1.00

02:39:46.000 It's a guy who already kills people, and he's in jail forever.

02:39:49.000 He's going to be in jail forever. 0.99

02:39:51.000 So for that guy, you say, will you kill that guy for me? 0.94

02:39:54.000 It's not even much of a stretch. 0.99

02:39:56.000 It's not much of a stretch that Epstein would have killed himself.

02:39:59.000 It's not much of a stretch that that guy killed him either if he's telling the truth that there was a report 18 days before that that guy tried to kill him.

02:40:06.000 We just don't know.

02:40:06.000 I mean, that's what we're doing.

02:40:07.000 Well, we certainly don't know, but I don't understand why you would want to make the conclusion that he tried to kill himself.

02:40:11.000 It's not the person who's who's a contract killer was not actually trying to kill him when he said he was 18 days before.

02:40:19.000 Well, Joe, I mean, please don't misrepresent.

02:40:22.000 I'm saying I don't know.

02:40:23.000 And the change for me is going from really looking like a homicide to really not knowing because there's some evidence that I had not considered before that.

02:40:31.000 Right.

02:40:32.000 You know, the guy who did the autopsy was the guy from that autopsy show on HBO, who his name is Michael Badden, and he was famous.

02:40:39.000 The official autopsy.

02:40:40.000 No, no, no.

02:40:40.000 The one his brother authorized.

02:40:42.000 Because he was famous.

02:40:43.000 He was an autopsy, though.

02:40:44.000 He was a medical examiner.

02:40:46.000 He's a medical examiner.

02:40:46.000 He's also famous for, he's also paid.

02:40:49.000 Seyche conducted a post-suicide watch report.

02:40:51.000 Epstein denied suicidality and stated, I have no interest in killing myself and that it would be crazy to take his life, although he was depressed and unhappy about his current legal situation.

02:41:05.000 He was told he will remain on psychological observation in the near term.

02:41:09.000 He said, look, and you see even there, he says he didn't recall he got the marks on his neck.

02:41:14.000 So he didn't blame that on.

02:41:15.000 But no, no, no, that's here.

02:41:17.000 But then the other details from the other report said that he complained that the guy tried to kill himself.

02:41:23.000 His cellmate rather tried to kill him.

02:41:25.000 Can you go back?

02:41:26.000 Okay, we can find that again.

02:41:29.000 I don't think, but Joe, I don't think that you've got it.

02:41:32.000 I don't think you've got it.

02:41:35.000 I don't think we've nailed the case that it was a homicide at all.

02:41:38.000 Well, I'm not saying that I know.

02:41:39.000 Yeah.

02:41:40.000 But I'm saying we agree we don't know.

02:41:42.000 Yes, but you're dismissing these major factors of him being a cell with a contract killer, him saying 18 days before the guy tried to kill him, then finding him unresponsive, that someone tried to strangle him 18 days before.

02:41:54.000 Yeah, but I mean, there's just, you can make a case either way, is my point.

02:41:58.000 You can make the case that he was murdered.

02:42:00.000 I certainly can, but at a certain point in time, when enough circumstantial evidence, it's fucking weird, like the cameras being down, the guards being asleep. 0.77

02:42:00.000 You make a case. 0.77

02:42:07.000 The cameras were down.

02:42:08.000 I think, I don't want to, don't quote me on exactly, but they weren't down like that day before or something.

02:42:12.000 They were down for a while before.

02:42:14.000 And the security guards fall asleep all the time.

02:42:18.000 What did you find about the roommate trying to kill him?

02:42:22.000 I mean, this is like their report of it.

02:42:24.000 I was trying to find his, but this is in this report right here.

02:42:28.000 He was found in the fetal position, laying on the floor, snoring.

02:42:32.000 Epstein told officers that Tagleone, cellmate, had tried to kill him and that had been harassing him.

02:42:39.000 Taglioni claimed he had been asleep and woke up to see Epstein with a string around his neck. 0.98

02:42:44.000 Does that make fucking sense? 0.99

02:42:46.000 Well, actually, but Joe, just to try to kill him. 0.99

02:42:50.000 And if Epstein, and the result of this is that Epstein doesn't have a cellmate, right?

02:42:55.000 So Epstein doesn't want to have a cell.

02:42:57.000 If you want to kill yourself, you don't want a cellmate.

02:42:59.000 So you can interpret the same side of the same amount of facts.

02:43:03.000 If you want to go, got a guy to go back and finish the job. 0.96

02:43:06.000 You shut the cameras off and you open the cell and you let this guy kill him.

02:43:10.000 But they shut the cameras off when they shut the cameras off, though.

02:43:13.000 It doesn't matter.

02:43:13.000 There's no video.

02:43:13.000 No, it does matter.

02:43:14.000 There's no video.

02:43:16.000 Even the video that's there has been edited.

02:43:18.000 The one video they show of the outside of the cell, a minute's missing from it. 0.99

02:43:22.000 There's a lot of weird shit to it, man. 0.59

02:43:24.000 I agree, but it's not where you should arrive on it. 0.98

02:43:27.000 In my view, where the facts lead you is that we don't know.

02:43:30.000 And so that's a different thing.

02:43:33.000 That's something to me than just saying.

02:43:34.000 That's safe. 0.97

02:43:35.000 We don't know, but it is kind of fucking weird that he's in a cell with a contract killer. 0.98

02:43:38.000 Kind of fucking weird that he made a complaint that the contract killer tried to kill him 18 days before. 0.98

02:43:43.000 Not if you're trying to get it. 0.98

02:43:44.000 So did they remove that guy from his cell?

02:43:46.000 Is that what happened?

02:43:47.000 He did.

02:43:48.000 Yeah, he was by himself, obviously, the night he killed himself or was killed.

02:43:52.000 Or was killed.

02:43:54.000 Did you find the email where he's talking about the lady on the island where she's saying that we brought children to an o that someone brought children to an island?

02:44:05.000 Remember, he's faced with life in prison.

02:44:08.000 He loved his decadent, hedonistic life. 0.68

02:44:11.000 There's plenty of motivations for him to kill himself rather than live in prison the rest of his life.

02:44:16.000 And remember, I think it was like a day or two before he lost his bail appeal.

02:44:16.000 Right.

02:44:21.000 So he thought he'd get on bail.

02:44:22.000 He didn't even get on bail.

02:44:23.000 He's going to be stuck there.

02:44:26.000 The psychologist didn't believe him.

02:44:28.000 She thought he was suicidal.

02:44:30.000 And so one way you interpret it is that they messed up.

02:44:34.000 They did a bad job.

02:44:36.000 They should have known that he was suicidal and they should have had a roommate there.

02:44:40.000 The guards should not have fallen asleep.

02:44:41.000 They should have fixed the video camera. 0.99

02:44:43.000 I just can't imagine such a high-profile defendant and you're not watching him like a fucking hawk. 0.99

02:44:49.000 I would imagine that a guy like that would be in protective custody with no fucking shoelaces, no way to hang himself. 0.99

02:44:56.000 I think you overestimate our prison system. 0.90

02:44:59.000 I would think that you would do your very best in this case to make sure that this guy is watched.

02:45:05.000 They bring him to the city.

02:45:05.000 They didn't.

02:45:06.000 I mean, they didn't.

02:45:07.000 They should have had a roommate in his cell and they didn't. 1.00

02:45:09.000 Well, they put him in a fucking cell with a killer. 1.00

02:45:12.000 So it seems a little bit more than that. 0.99

02:45:13.000 But when you say it that way, you make it sound like the killer was in the cell the night he was killed.

02:45:17.000 I make it sound like this killer was in the cell with him when he says the killer tried to kill him.

02:45:22.000 Right.

02:45:22.000 But or he tried to kill himself.

02:45:24.000 Isn't that a little weird?

02:45:25.000 Why didn't the guy do it then?

02:45:27.000 Well, he probably choked him unconscious and thought he was dead, and he survived.

02:45:27.000 Why didn't it work?

02:45:31.000 They found him unresponsive.

02:45:33.000 Or he tried to kill himself, and then when they said, why did you try to kill himself?

02:45:37.000 He blames it on the roommate so he doesn't have to have a roommate anymore.

02:45:40.000 It's possible.

02:45:41.000 Yeah.

02:45:42.000 So find that email where he says that it's him?

02:45:46.000 I'm trying to.

02:45:47.000 I don't have access to the files right now.

02:45:49.000 The thing I was using is gone.

02:45:51.000 It's gone?

02:45:51.000 Yeah.

02:45:53.000 Ian Carroll's app was really good.

02:45:56.000 And they've taken a downbook rather than make it public.

02:45:58.000 Now it was only 90%.

02:46:00.000 I know I was thinking through that too.

02:46:00.000 J-Mail's.

02:46:02.000 I've got so many fucking tabs open. 0.96

02:46:04.000 you guys have moved around so if you kind of go so for me if i go if i go we don't know if it was a homicide or suicide um The intelligence community work was, appears to be of a long time ago, and he was a contractor. 0.96

02:46:16.000 We don't have any other evidence of a sex blackmail operation other than that email.

02:46:21.000 Now, there is one other thing that I thought was one for the theory that he's a blackmailer is that he put he's like we have emails of him putting cameras in Kleenex boxes hidden cameras in Kleenex boxes with motion detectors was that in order to engage in a blackmail operation or was he just a pervert to blackmail people Okay,

02:46:46.000 your friend told me about the projects he's doing researching a really bad guy who gets children for sex sent to his island.

02:46:54.000 She almost fainted when I told her that person is me.

02:46:58.000 That seems pretty clear.

02:47:00.000 No, no, I think he's saying that she's writing a story. 0.88

02:47:04.000 It was about him, but I don't think he's admitting that he's bringing children to his island for sex. 0.99

02:47:09.000 I don't know about you, but if I was sending an email and I was talking about someone researching someone who's sending children to an island for sex, I would also include that I let her know that that was bullshit. 0.99

02:47:23.000 Well, she ends up coming in and meeting with them, right? 0.95

02:47:25.000 You've seen the follow-up to this?

02:47:27.000 So she ends up coming to meeting with her, and I don't know if he gives her money or something or funds her, but it's like, yeah, I mean, the only thing is that, like, without justifying, I mean, I think that after 2008, there's not, I don't think there's any evidence, and I could be wrong, there's not a lot of evidence that anybody under age came to, you know, that Epstein, you know, abused anybody under 18.

02:47:27.000 No.

02:47:52.000 And I'm not defending abusing women over 18, but that did seem like a pretty big change.

02:47:57.000 Epstein associate found dead in Paris prison cell.

02:48:00.000 After he said he was going to flip.

02:48:02.000 Huh.

02:48:02.000 Shocker.

02:48:04.000 Maybe he got sad too.

02:48:04.000 Weird.

02:48:06.000 Well, maybe.

02:48:07.000 He's one of the co-conspirators also.

02:48:08.000 I mean, people kill themselves a lot.

02:48:10.000 Psychopaths also kill themselves a lot.

02:48:13.000 Also, people get people killed because they're going to flip.

02:48:16.000 It's possible, and it's just, it's just, we would just need evidence for it.

02:48:20.000 Yeah.

02:48:20.000 So.

02:48:21.000 This is really, if you're going to kill somebody, you should probably make it so that there's not a lot of evidence.

02:48:25.000 Right?

02:48:26.000 Yeah.

02:48:27.000 How did they find him dead?

02:48:28.000 Did he kill himself?

02:48:29.000 He hung in a cell.

02:48:31.000 Oh.

02:48:32.000 There's a lot of sheets in there.

02:48:32.000 Hung himself.

02:48:34.000 Hunged himself.

02:48:35.000 Hanged himself. 0.94

02:48:36.000 However you want to word it.

02:48:37.000 So then it's like – They should make those sheets out of – So then the theory would be what?

02:48:41.000 That Bill Gates hired a contract killer to who did it then?

02:48:45.000 Who knows?

02:48:46.000 Yeah.

02:48:46.000 Well, who knows what, who knew what about what and when?

02:48:49.000 But I don't think it's the, I don't think it's the intelligence community because we're not seeing, I just, we're not.

02:48:54.000 I mean, Mike came in here and you guys talked for a long time and Mike's not suggesting.

02:48:57.000 Well, there's no evidence that it was.

02:49:00.000 I mean, we don't have like clear-cut, he did this, and they killed these guys because of that.

02:49:06.000 We don't have that.

02:49:07.000 Yeah.

02:49:07.000 Right.

02:49:08.000 So, I mean.

02:49:09.000 But we also don't have three million files.

02:49:12.000 We also, like, the thing is that we don't, he doesn't need blackmail to make money.

02:49:16.000 Well, he also doesn't need blackmail in order to be able to get people to do things and influence them.

02:49:22.000 And if you have video of people fucking people and doing things they're not supposed to be doing and you're giving them drugs and he got them on this island for these wild parties, they're more inclined to do things that would do stuff for you.

02:49:35.000 I mean, I'll tell you, I mean, FBI confiscated a lot of films and videos. 0.90

02:49:35.000 I mean, it's possible. 0.90

02:49:38.000 They had that.

02:49:39.000 I was always very suspicious of that.

02:49:41.000 The fact that he's talking about hidden cameras and motion devices is very bad.

02:49:44.000 Well, that was the narrative before that.

02:49:46.000 There was thousands of hours, hours rather, of horrible videos.

02:49:50.000 Yeah.

02:49:51.000 So it's possible that there was.

02:49:53.000 Now, I don't know that I would be.

02:49:56.000 Visitors describe a bathroom reminiscent of James Bond movies, hidden beneath a stairway, lined with lead to provide shelter from attack and supplied with closed-circuit television screens and a telephone, both concealed in a cabinet behind the sink, wrote the Times.

02:50:10.000 The townhouse is now reportedly owned by Wexner's even more mysterious protege, Jeffrey Epstein.

02:50:18.000 So this is even before his arrest.

02:50:20.000 And also the other part of the thing about this: remember when Jeff Bezos was blackmailed?

02:50:20.000 Yeah.

02:50:25.000 And he was just like, yes.

02:50:27.000 He was like, I'm just going to.

02:50:28.000 Well, that was just love letters to Lauren Sanchez.

02:50:32.000 They were pretty racy.

02:50:33.000 Yeah, but I mean, it was still, it was private, personal things where he was sending them to a woman he loved.

02:50:39.000 It shows the risks of engaging in blackmail.

02:50:43.000 And so that turned out to be a dummy.

02:50:45.000 That was like someone's brother.

02:50:47.000 Right.

02:50:47.000 Yeah.

02:50:48.000 So, but Epstein, I mean, in other words, if you use it, like if you actually like use your blackmail, I think it's very hard then to maintain your reputation as somebody.

02:50:58.000 Now, maybe it was sort of hovering, never articulated.

02:51:01.000 He was attracting people.

02:51:02.000 I mean, what's so striking about it is he's attracting people to him.

02:51:05.000 He's got all this Bonhami.

02:51:07.000 Oh, come hang out with Chomsky and Ehud Barak and all these people.

02:51:11.000 It's like a really good time.

02:51:12.000 You know, I think then being like, oh, I have blackmail material on you and you need to do it.

02:51:16.000 I mean, he's getting people to do what he wants them to do for money, you know, for feeling like good vibes, being in on some Israeli peace talks.

02:51:26.000 I don't then see him going around.

02:51:28.000 And maybe, look, again, like, I totally confess.

02:51:30.000 Maybe I just haven't seen the evidence then that he's going around being like, oh, I have blackmail material on you.

02:51:35.000 You have to do what I want.

02:51:36.000 He got Clinton.

02:51:37.000 He probably got.

02:51:38.000 Why do you think he's filming everybody then? 0.91

02:51:41.000 That is, he could be a pervert.

02:51:43.000 I mean, there's plenty of evidence of perversion, right? 0.96

02:51:46.000 Oh, the ranch.

02:51:48.000 Investigators are finally looking to Jeffrey Epstein's New Mexico ranch.

02:51:51.000 Federal authorities apparently never searched the property, but now state authorities will reopen a 2019 investigation.

02:51:58.000 About time, New Mexico.

02:52:00.000 It's great.

02:52:01.000 Someone on Twitter had a, or X has a very long, I was reading it earlier and got bored, but it's very long about the link with the lottery.

02:52:09.000 Oh, yeah.

02:52:10.000 How they won the lottery.

02:52:11.000 It's weird.

02:52:12.000 Wait till that, if that's accurate.

02:52:12.000 It's weird.

02:52:14.000 It's weird.

02:52:15.000 I agree.

02:52:15.000 That one's crazy.

02:52:16.000 I mean, Mike also points out that he was leased this incredible mansion in New York by the State Department, but then the State Department like sued him.

02:52:25.000 So it's, you know, they're like he if he was like really less Wexner, give him a house in Manhattan.

02:52:30.000 And then, well, didn't that, didn't the big house, that was the, this was a previous mansion. 0.99

02:52:35.000 He couldn't give it a fucking mansion. 0.96

02:52:37.000 Thing I told you about someone found that the person who notarized that $10 transfer of the house conveniently filmed like the best 9-11 footage. 0.98

02:52:48.000 And those are the 3 million, like the timing of those missing files is right around the 2001 time period.

02:52:56.000 I mean, I think that what the files are important is that we saw he's able to make his money as a high-level fixer.

02:53:02.000 We saw people were really into him.

02:53:04.000 People loved him.

02:53:05.000 He was magnetic.

02:53:06.000 He's able to get people to do things that he wants without using that as a tool.

02:53:11.000 And we're not seeing, I just don't see where I don't think we're seeing any signs or footprints or any of that of engaging in blackmail.

02:53:18.000 We have the cameras.

02:53:20.000 We don't have half of the files.

02:53:23.000 Yeah.

02:53:24.000 What we have is weird.

02:53:25.000 The grape soda, the shrimp, the pizza references, the jerky, all that stuff is weird. 0.77

02:53:31.000 This lady saying that there's an island where a bad guy is bringing children for sex. 1.00

02:53:36.000 She almost fainted when I said that person's me. 1.00

02:53:38.000 All this stuff is kind of fucked. 1.00

02:53:40.000 Would you admit it's kind of fucked? 1.00

02:53:42.000 The shrimp's one, they're definitely talking about children for sex. 1.00

02:53:46.000 Don't you think that's kind of fucked? 1.00

02:53:48.000 I think that he was. 0.99

02:53:50.000 I mean, my interpretation, one interpretation of it is that, yeah, he's freely admitting on an email that he's trafficking children.

02:53:57.000 I find that difficult to believe.

02:53:59.000 That you would put that.

02:54:00.000 I mean, if you're going to say that, well, he doesn't put the blackmail stuff in email, but he's going to put in an email that he's bringing children to the island.

02:54:06.000 I mean, I think he's being sarcastic there.

02:54:10.000 I think he's saying, oh, that guy is me.

02:54:12.000 Like, that's what they say about me.

02:54:14.000 Why wouldn't you elaborate?

02:54:16.000 And say, I mean, if you're not going to be able to do it, the person he sends it to knows that it's not true.

02:54:22.000 That's cool.

02:54:23.000 I mean, I think that person works for him, right?

02:54:25.000 Masha?

02:54:25.000 Is that one of the women that he had?

02:54:28.000 I don't know.

02:54:29.000 I just, I don't think that's him saying I'm.

02:54:32.000 Maybe.

02:54:33.000 Yeah.

02:54:33.000 Maybe.

02:54:34.000 All right.

02:54:35.000 We got to wrap this up.

02:54:36.000 Anything else?

02:54:38.000 Someone gave me a video.

02:54:40.000 I thought I can share it with you guys.

02:54:41.000 Of what?

02:54:42.000 A UFO video.

02:54:43.000 Oh, okay.

02:54:44.000 Do we make a definition to end every sesh with a. 0.85

02:54:48.000 Can I send it to Jamie?

02:54:50.000 Yeah.

02:54:50.000 You could airdrop it.

02:54:53.000 Is it compelling?

02:54:54.000 More compelling than Yahweh's video?

02:54:57.000 You didn't like the Yahweh video?

02:54:59.000 No, it was kind of interesting.

02:55:01.000 He's fun.

02:55:01.000 Is it compelling?

02:55:02.000 All right.

02:55:03.000 You guys will decide.

02:55:04.000 Or no, here I send it to you.

02:55:06.000 Oh, can I ask you something?

02:55:07.000 Yeah.

02:55:08.000 I was curious about what?

02:55:09.000 Oh, I was going to say, you know, Elon.

02:55:13.000 You think Elon knows more than he's letting know about UAPs?

02:55:16.000 Yes.

02:55:17.000 How do you know that?

02:55:18.000 Well, because he works with NASA.

02:55:21.000 If he knows something, he knows something.

02:55:23.000 Also, some people have told me that he knows some things.

02:55:25.000 But don't you ask him privately? 0.99

02:55:26.000 He don't tell me shit. 1.00

02:55:27.000 I got a big mouth. 1.00

02:55:27.000 Okay. 1.00

02:55:29.000 I asked somebody that was high up in his operation.

02:55:32.000 Yeah.

02:55:33.000 We were on the record, but I won't reveal who they are, what they said.

02:55:36.000 What would they say?

02:55:37.000 And they go, I said, you guys must be.

02:55:38.000 I was like, at SpaceX, you guys must just like have to, don't you have to edit out like UFOs that you get?

02:55:44.000 And the person just looked at me and they just said, Elon's really close with the federal government.

02:55:49.000 That was all they said.

02:55:50.000 All right.

02:55:50.000 Good.

02:55:51.000 Let's play this.

02:55:52.000 I don't know.

02:55:53.000 Doesn't look like much.

02:55:54.000 Just play.

02:55:57.000 What am I looking at?

02:55:59.000 This is her video here.

02:56:01.000 I think she zooms in.

02:56:01.000 I think she shows.

02:56:05.000 I don't know what we're looking at.

02:56:07.000 It's here in Texas.

02:56:10.000 What are you looking at, lady? 1.00

02:56:15.000 Okay.

02:56:16.000 It's like most UFO videos. 1.00

02:56:18.000 It's just a dumbass. 0.99

02:56:19.000 No, it gets better. 1.00

02:56:20.000 30 seconds, guys.

02:56:21.000 Okay.

02:56:22.000 She's tripping out right now. 0.99

02:56:25.000 It looks like she's tripping.

02:56:26.000 It looks like it's.

02:56:28.000 You know her?

02:56:29.000 Is she your friend?

02:56:30.000 She's my friend.

02:56:31.000 Is that she intoxicated? 0.95

02:56:34.000 I think she's no, no, she's not.

02:56:35.000 And this is like not far from here.

02:56:37.000 It's somewhere in Texas.

02:56:39.000 I think she zooms in at the end.

02:56:41.000 No?

02:56:43.000 Well, we still got 10 seconds for it to get good.

02:56:48.000 My God.

02:56:49.000 What?

02:56:50.000 Oh, she doesn't.

02:56:51.000 I thought she had a. 1.00

02:56:53.000 Once she showed me, she zoomed in on it.

02:56:54.000 It's much better.

02:56:56.000 Disappointing.

02:56:58.000 Let's cut that all out.

02:56:58.000 We probably should have looked at it.

02:57:00.000 All right.

02:57:01.000 Let's wrap it up.

02:57:02.000 Thank you, sir.

02:57:02.000 Appreciate having me, Joe.

02:57:03.000 Thanks to you.

02:57:04.000 Bye everybody.

02:57:04.000 All right.

02:57:08.000 Bye

The Joe Rogan Experience - March 10, 2026

Joe Rogan Experience #2465 - Michael Shellenberger

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Transcript