The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2466 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out!

00:00:03.000 The Joe Rogan experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan, podcast by night, all day!

00:00:12.000 All right, so when we scheduled this, there was nothing happening.

00:00:15.000 It was so peaceful.

00:00:16.000 Every time we're here, something crazy is going on, man.

00:00:20.000 Yeah, maybe we manifest it.

00:00:23.000 To be honest, 2026 did start with a bang.

00:00:27.000 Yeah.

00:00:29.000 Well, a lot of things, you know, it's just nothing seems stable everywhere.

00:00:35.000 Everywhere in the world seems fucked right now.

00:00:38.000 Like, this is like, in all of my years, this seems the most unstable globally.

00:00:45.000 Like, I never worried that the UK was going to be like complete chaos, arresting 12,000 people for social media posts and abandoning trial by jury, all that shit.

00:00:58.000 I never thought the Ukraine-Russia war would go on this long.

00:01:03.000 Never thought.

00:01:04.000 Never thought they would just continue bombing Gaza and then what's happening now?

00:01:08.000 They just sort of stop.

00:01:10.000 And now they're talking about putting a resort there.

00:01:16.000 What?

00:01:18.000 You hear that and you go, are you fucking serious?

00:01:21.000 Tim Dylan has a, I won't give the bit away.

00:01:21.000 Right.

00:01:24.000 He has a fucking phenomenal bit about staying in that resort.

00:01:30.000 Yeah, and you boys have been busy as well, Joe.

00:01:32.000 Yeah, and I was going to get through that.

00:01:35.000 The embarrassing part.

00:01:38.000 In the middle of Ramadan, you take out the leader of a Muslim country.

00:01:44.000 They're hangry already, and you're fucking with it.

00:01:48.000 They're really.

00:01:49.000 Yeah, they can't drink water.

00:01:52.000 And then, you know, I was listening to Tim Dylan's podcast today.

00:01:56.000 He's got a great podcast with Ryan Grimm and one other gentleman.

00:02:01.000 But one of the things that they brought up was that some of these drone attacks, it doesn't even seem like they're from Iran.

00:02:09.000 Some of these drone attacks on Gulf states, like that one of them, I don't want to speak out of tune out of turn because I'm not exactly sure which ones they're talking about.

00:02:21.000 They're talking about one of them on either it's a oil refinery, I think it is, an oil refinery.

00:02:29.000 It doesn't seem like it came from Iran.

00:02:32.000 Where did it come from?

00:02:33.000 That's a good question.

00:02:34.000 One of their proxies?

00:02:36.000 That's a good question.

00:02:37.000 Well, the fear is a false flag.

00:02:40.000 That's the fear.

00:02:41.000 Like, if you really wanted to get really scared of what we're dragged into, you're dragged into an ally that's not telling you the truth and is also doing some other stuff.

00:02:52.000 I'm not even saying that that's the case, but a lot of people are assuming that that's what it is.

00:02:58.000 But that's what happens when you have an absence of information.

00:03:01.000 Right.

00:03:02.000 So the moment you have an absence of information, there's a vacuum.

00:03:04.000 And nature aboard is a vacuum.

00:03:06.000 You need to have that vacuum filled.

00:03:08.000 So that's where conspiracies naturally flourish.

00:03:11.000 100%.

00:03:11.000 Because if people don't have information, then they're going to basically theorize.

00:03:15.000 Right.

00:03:16.000 And part of people theorizing is conspiracies are going to start flourishing.

00:03:21.000 Well, I think they were basing it on where the drone came from.

00:03:26.000 Let's see if we can find some information on that, Jamie.

00:03:29.000 I will try.

00:03:30.000 It was Jeremy Scahill was the other reporter on the video.

00:03:35.000 I just find it amazing now how many people have a hard take on what's going to happen.

00:03:40.000 I'm like, we don't know a fucking thing about what's going on.

00:03:43.000 The coin is in the air, and we do not know how it's going to, but everyone's got a take.

00:03:47.000 Everyone knows.

00:03:49.000 We do not fucking, I don't think anyone knows.

00:03:51.000 I understand if you work at the White House or if you work in Russian propaganda or you work in Chinese propaganda, or if you work in Iranian, you've got to get your point of view across to try and persuade people.

00:04:03.000 But if you're actually trying to work out what's genuinely happening, I don't think anyone knows how this is a gamble of gigantic proportions.

00:04:11.000 And nobody knows how it's going to end.

00:04:14.000 It's just so unpredictable.

00:04:16.000 And I can tell you a great story that is positive.

00:04:21.000 for the for the West, let's say, for America.

00:04:23.000 I can tell you a terrible story, and they both sound very convincing, and no one knows which one of them is true.

00:04:28.000 Yeah, that's a very good point.

00:04:30.000 This is the hot take culture, right?

00:04:33.000 Everyone has a take, and they want their take to be that expert take.

00:04:37.000 So specific drone attack incidents that call potential false flags.

00:04:42.000 Saudi Arabia, Saudi Aramco, rather, oil facility attack.

00:04:48.000 So Iranian officials deny striking the Saudi Aramco processing facility and instead suggest Israel may have carried out that attack as a false flag to inflame Gulf opinion and pull Saudi Arabia more directly into the war with Iran.

00:05:03.000 So Ryan Grimm explicitly says he thinks Iran's claims that Israel hit the Iramco facility need to be taken seriously and that it's very possible Israel did it.

00:05:14.000 And this was the other one, the drone strike on the British base in Cyprus.

00:05:17.000 That was from Lebanon, right?

00:05:19.000 Yeah.

00:05:19.000 Is that what they're saying?

00:05:20.000 Yeah.

00:05:21.000 May have come from the direction of Lebanon.

00:05:23.000 He places this in the same context of Iran claiming Israel carried out certain attacks in neighboring states as false flags to blame in Iran and drag those countries into the war.

00:05:33.000 Those countries, this doesn't make any logical sense to me because those countries are already in the war.

00:05:37.000 I mean, Saudi Arabia and UAE have been attacked by Iran because they were on the phone to Trump basically asking him to do this.

00:05:47.000 This is another weird one, the Tucker Carlson one.

00:05:50.000 You saw that, right?

00:05:51.000 No.

00:05:52.000 So Tucker Carlson said that they'd been arrested.

00:05:57.000 The members of Massad have been arrested in Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

00:06:02.000 But both Qatar and Saudi Arabia have said it's not true.

00:06:04.000 Yeah, they've officially denied such arrests.

00:06:07.000 Their own Saudi sources also denied it, though they note details don't prove it didn't happen, and that states would almost certainly hide such arrests if real.

00:06:16.000 Huh.

00:06:18.000 The thing, Joe, is that these countries, so Saudi Arabia and UAE, Qatar less so, they want this to happen because they also hate Iran or the Iranian regime.

00:06:28.000 So there is no need for Israel, even if you, you know, if people are tempted to believe there's no need for Israel to do this because these countries are already in it.

00:06:38.000 Right.

00:06:39.000 And that one of the reasons Iran has attacked things in Saudi Arabia and in the UAE is they know that.

00:06:45.000 Right.

00:06:47.000 The Gulf countries are on board with this.

00:06:49.000 Right.

00:06:50.000 So what would be if, let's assume that the false flag, that it's in play.

00:06:57.000 Why?

00:06:57.000 Why would Israel, how would they benefit from doing this?

00:07:00.000 There is no rationale that I can think of.

00:07:00.000 That's what I'm saying.

00:07:03.000 For the people that think the false flag is real, like, why do they think that?

00:07:06.000 What do they think that Israel would benefit from it?

00:07:09.000 Is there a scenario where you can imagine it would inflame things and further support other countries contributing to the – I mean there's a lot of money that's being spent on this war, right?

00:07:20.000 This is an insane amount of money just for munitions, just for missiles.

00:07:20.000 Right.

00:07:25.000 Yeah, yeah, and then rebuilding Iran if we get to that, right?

00:07:27.000 Maybe another resort.

00:07:28.000 Yeah.

00:07:29.000 But I just don't see the rationale because the Gulf countries are already targets for Iran.

00:07:35.000 There's nothing too inflamed.

00:07:36.000 Like the situation is already pretty fucking inflamed, right?

00:07:40.000 And it's partly inflamed because, as I say, actually, the Gulf states and Israel are pretty aligned on this particular thing.

00:07:47.000 They are all at threat from the Iranian regime.

00:07:52.000 So we we had Eamon Dean and Richard Minito on our show the other day.

00:07:57.000 One of them is a al-Qaeda MI6 double agent.

00:08:00.000 Another one is a really reputable investigative journalist, Richard.

00:08:05.000 Al-Qaeda MI6 double agent.

00:08:07.000 Yeah.

00:08:08.000 What balls.

00:08:09.000 And he has a great podcast now as well called Conflicted.

00:08:14.000 What a great name for a podcast where a guy was a double agent.

00:08:18.000 What balls that guy must have.

00:08:18.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:08:20.000 Yeah.

00:08:20.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:08:21.000 Really cool guy.

00:08:22.000 But anyway, I mean, he was explaining that Saudi Arabia has a population that is way bigger than what they can sustain in terms of the water, but they live in the fucking desert.

00:08:32.000 So they have these desalination plants, which are extremely vulnerable.

00:08:36.000 And Saudi Arabia, UAE, these other countries, they felt at huge risk from Iranian attacks for a long time.

00:08:42.000 So none of them like the Iranian regime that's spreading terrorism through its proxies.

00:08:48.000 So in actual fact, dragging them into the war, kind of like there's no sense for that.

00:08:53.000 I think there's a lot of people just they go to reaction now whenever anything happens is that it was Israel's fault.

00:09:00.000 Like Venezuela, fuck all to do with Israel.

00:09:02.000 But when it happened, everyone's like, oh, it's Israel.

00:09:04.000 I think some people just go to that now as the automatic response, which comes back to what I was saying earlier about the hot tech culture.

00:09:12.000 Something happened three minutes ago and now everyone's got a fucking take on it.

00:09:15.000 You don't know anything.

00:09:16.000 None of us know anything.

00:09:18.000 None of us know how this is going to go.

00:09:20.000 Because this right now is a highly unpredictable situation.

00:09:24.000 I don't think the White House knows how this is going to go.

00:09:26.000 No, it's terrifying.

00:09:28.000 It's terrifying and it's exactly the opposite of what we were told leading into this administration.

00:09:34.000 That it's going to be America first.

00:09:36.000 Right.

00:09:36.000 and no more unnecessary foreign wars there's the other thing that do you remember desert storm Yeah.

00:09:43.000 Yeah.

00:09:43.000 Desert Storm, quick and easy, baby.

00:09:45.000 Woo, we went in, kicked some ass, took some names.

00:09:48.000 That's a wrap.

00:09:49.000 Pulled out.

00:09:49.000 There was only one base that got hit.

00:09:51.000 So the amount of deaths by American citizens was fairly minimal.

00:09:56.000 I think that's what got people so confident into entering Iran after 9-11.

00:10:01.000 Or excuse me, Iraq after 9-11.

00:10:03.000 To go back, like we already fucked them up once.

00:10:05.000 We're going to go back and this is going to be easy.

00:10:07.000 Well, it wasn't easy the second time.

00:10:09.000 It was drawn out and it didn't make any sense.

00:10:11.000 But people wanted some form of revenge, something for 9-11.

00:10:16.000 And so somehow or another, they justified a war with a country that had zero to do with it.

00:10:21.000 Like, it didn't even make sense.

00:10:23.000 That one took for.

00:10:24.000 And then we also invaded Afghanistan at the same time.

00:10:27.000 What do we do?

00:10:28.000 What the fuck?

00:10:29.000 So in the fog of this idea of American exceptionalism, we're just going to go in and fix it.

00:10:34.000 We did it before.

00:10:35.000 There's no one even close to us.

00:10:37.000 Well, look how that turned out.

00:10:39.000 Yeah, well, this is completely true.

00:10:40.000 And there's this idea that it's so easy to take one regime, remove it, and then just put another one in its place, like it's a Lego block, and then all of a sudden you're going to magically fix a country is a fantasy.

00:10:52.000 Like if you take Iran, the IRGC, which is the Islamic Revolutionary Guard, numbers around 200,000 trained soldiers.

00:11:02.000 And not only are they trained soldiers, They're fanatical.

00:11:05.000 They're fanatics.

00:11:06.000 And then you have the secret police, and then you have the regular police.

00:11:09.000 And then you have the people employed in the government, and then their families, and so on and so forth.

00:11:14.000 And then their supporters within the country.

00:11:16.000 And then you've got the various factions within Iran, like the Kurds, who want independence.

00:11:21.000 So the moment the leadership is weakened, they're going to use it as an opportunity to launch their own revolution to try and break away from the rest of Iran.

00:11:31.000 So you have all of these particular parts, these factions.

00:11:36.000 And then you think if you take out the top, the Tagar at the top who's holding it all together by force, I'm not saying I agree with him or what he does, you have the very real risk that the entire country is going to disintegrate, as what happened in Iran, in Iraq, sorry.

00:11:52.000 And also Libya.

00:11:53.000 Yeah.

00:11:55.000 The idea that you could just take the guy out and that's rap.

00:12:01.000 I mean, it doesn't seem like it's well thought out.

00:12:04.000 Well, I mean, they would say Venezuela, right?

00:12:08.000 Like regime adjustment.

00:12:09.000 That's a completely different kind of thing.

00:12:11.000 Of course, of course.

00:12:12.000 This is a religious fanatical.

00:12:14.000 It's a totally different kind of country.

00:12:16.000 Also, it's a country that's been under threat for decades, right?

00:12:19.000 So they've been preparing for this kind of thing.

00:12:22.000 Yeah, and also with Venezuela, it wasn't a regime change.

00:12:25.000 Practically everybody who was in the old regime is still there.

00:12:28.000 It's a regime adjustment.

00:12:29.000 Exactly, exactly.

00:12:31.000 So Del C. Rodriguez was one of the senior leaders in Maduro's regime.

00:12:37.000 They just took out Maduro and his wife.

00:12:38.000 They put Del Codriguez there.

00:12:40.000 But the whole structure, the whole leadership, the whole party is still in place.

00:12:46.000 So they've just, what they've done is they put Delsi at the top and they've said to her, look, if you fuck about, you're going to get what your boss got.

00:12:54.000 So you're going to follow what we say.

00:12:56.000 You're going to do what we say.

00:12:58.000 You are going to open up the oil refineries.

00:13:00.000 We're going to build it.

00:13:01.000 You're going to start pumping oil out.

00:13:03.000 You're going to stop messing about with Hezbollah, which they had training camps in the island of Margarita, which is a little Caribbean island two and a half hours away from Miami.

00:13:12.000 Training camps.

00:13:13.000 You can't have that.

00:13:14.000 You're not going to be fraternizing with the Cubans.

00:13:17.000 And you're going to play ball.

00:13:18.000 And essentially, Venezuela is now a colony of the United States.

00:13:21.000 That's what it's now become.

00:13:23.000 That's wild.

00:13:24.000 Well, there's also the Kurt Metzger angle, which is hilarious.

00:13:29.000 Kurt Metzger cornered me one night at the mothership, and he explained to me that this was all about the 2020 election and that Maduro somehow or another had something to do with rigging the 2020 election.

00:13:43.000 And he's going to say it as a part of his testimony.

00:13:48.000 He's like, just wait.

00:13:50.000 Just wait.

00:13:50.000 Mark my words.

00:13:53.000 He's convinced of this.

00:13:54.000 He goes down the rabbit hole to the lava.

00:13:59.000 Like he passes and he's like, this rabbit hole's been covered up.

00:14:03.000 It goes deeper.

00:14:05.000 He keeps going until he's at the fucking center of the earth.

00:14:07.000 He's a funny guy, though.

00:14:08.000 Oh, he's hilarious.

00:14:09.000 He's hilarious.

00:14:10.000 He's mentally ill.

00:14:11.000 He's hilarious.

00:14:12.000 He's one of the funniest people I know, like ever.

00:14:15.000 Fantastic joke writer, too.

00:14:16.000 I mean, he's just great all around.

00:14:18.000 But Jesus Christ, like some of his nutty theories, they go so far.

00:14:23.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:14:24.000 I've been in bars with Kurt where he starts talking to me.

00:14:27.000 And I'm like, Kurt, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

00:14:31.000 Well, he changes conspiracies mid-sentence.

00:14:35.000 He starts bringing up some shit from the 70s.

00:14:38.000 It's the church committee and this and that and MKUltra.

00:14:41.000 And don't you know about monarchs?

00:14:43.000 Like, what?

00:14:45.000 Slow down.

00:14:46.000 Like, not everybody knows what you're talking about.

00:14:48.000 But I think this is, and I love Kurt, but this is kind of where you feel that the truth isn't enough.

00:14:56.000 So there needs to be something else.

00:14:59.000 There needs to be something that goes deeper than that.

00:15:01.000 And sometimes there is, don't get me wrong.

00:15:03.000 Sometimes it does go deeper.

00:15:05.000 But sometimes, like, you're making connections where there are no connections.

00:15:09.000 Like, it's pretty simple with Venezuela what was going on.

00:15:12.000 They were fucking about, and they were doing it for a long time.

00:15:16.000 And they were doing it in America's backyard.

00:15:18.000 And they had warning after warning.

00:15:20.000 And Maduro, the way I'd push back against Kurt is, I'm really sorry, Kurt, but Maduro ain't that bright.

00:15:25.000 Well, I don't think he has to be that bright to finance and make sure and arrange things because they did.

00:15:31.000 There was like something connected to the voting machines that were there.

00:15:36.000 They made those claims.

00:15:38.000 Sidney Powell, was it?

00:15:39.000 Yeah, here we go.

00:15:40.000 She's another fun one.

00:15:42.000 Post-2020 from Trump allies like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani claiming Hugo Chavez, Maduro's predecessor, developed rigged software to export to U.S. firms.

00:15:52.000 These were promoted by figures like Mike Lindell.

00:15:54.000 He makes a great pillow.

00:15:55.000 You should listen to him.

00:15:57.000 And amplified on social media, but courts and fact checks rejected them, including Fox News $787 million Dominion settlement.

00:16:07.000 Yeah, I was going to say I was pretty sure those claims were debunked.

00:16:11.000 Yeah, not to Kurt.

00:16:14.000 He's like, you guys don't know where the hard drives are.

00:16:16.000 They're in the center of the earth.

00:16:17.000 We've got to get there.

00:16:20.000 Yeah, that doesn't make much sense to me, but neither does this idea that you're going to take over a country's oil supply.

00:16:27.000 You know, like that, you know, we'll just take it.

00:16:31.000 The problem is from the outside, like the rest of the world, you look at this unnecessary aggression by the United States government, and then you tack on whatever propaganda they have already been spitting out about America for the last 20 or 30 years.

00:16:45.000 And then this war with Iran gets really ugly because that's how you start a World War III.

00:16:50.000 You start a World War III by doing something that other than people that wanted this forever, who else thinks that's a good idea?

00:17:00.000 Who else thinks it's a good idea to just attack a country that isn't doing anything?

00:17:04.000 They haven't done anything.

00:17:06.000 Like if you proof that they have developed depleted uranium and they've got it up to a point where they've got it to what it has, what percentage does it have to be?

00:17:16.000 Like they're at 60, right?

00:17:18.000 But that's way more than you need, usually.

00:17:20.000 Way more than you need, right?

00:17:21.000 So it shows that they're at least ramping up their production where it's possible to get it to whatever it needs to make it.

00:17:27.000 That's way more than you need for civilian use.

00:17:30.000 But that's still, it's not clear that that justifies an invasion when North Korea has nuclear weapons.

00:17:37.000 Right.

00:17:37.000 Right?

00:17:38.000 It's like, do we just want, are we just trying to prevent them from ever getting to a point where they're like North Korea?

00:17:43.000 Who the fuck is worried about North Korea?

00:17:45.000 Zero people.

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00:18:24.000 I think the difference, as you correctly said earlier, is these people are very different to the North Koreans, right?

00:18:29.000 North Korea wants to be left the fuck alone.

00:18:32.000 Iran does not want to be left alone.

00:18:34.000 Iran wants to dominate the region.

00:18:35.000 That's why they fund Hamas.

00:18:37.000 It's one they fund Hezbollah.

00:18:38.000 It's why they fund the Houthis.

00:18:39.000 It's why they are doing shit.

00:18:42.000 That's why the Gulf countries and Israel are very worried about them, right?

00:18:46.000 So that's the difference, I think.

00:18:47.000 And then there's the, you know, some of the people we've had on the show who are Iranian have talked about the what is it called 12th Shia Islam?

00:18:57.000 I can't remember the details, but basically they have a kind of messianic vision of what's going to happen.

00:19:03.000 And they believe that when the world ends, that's when the prophecy will be fulfilled.

00:19:08.000 You don't want those guys with nuclear weapons, right?

00:19:11.000 That's a good point.

00:19:12.000 So from that perspective, it's different to North Korea.

00:19:12.000 Yeah.

00:19:17.000 And so I think that's part of the thinking.

00:19:19.000 But your point is interesting to me about the fact that this doesn't reflect what people, you know, as we're not Americans, but it doesn't seem to have been part of the policy platform of the Trump election at the last election, right?

00:19:34.000 No, not at all.

00:19:35.000 But I do think there is some kind of strategy behind all of this.

00:19:38.000 And I'm very curious what that is.

00:19:41.000 Because I guess if you think about it logically, you would say, well, is it an attempt to effectively push back against China and Russia, infiltrating all these countries?

00:19:51.000 China and Russia were very close with Maduro in Venezuela.

00:19:55.000 Very, very close.

00:19:56.000 Like Francis is saying, has Bilal training camps, Island Margarita?

00:19:59.000 Where was the oil going?

00:20:01.000 Right?

00:20:02.000 I mean, Iran sells its oil to China and sends suicide drones to Russia to use in Ukraine.

00:20:02.000 Same with Iran.

00:20:08.000 So maybe it's that.

00:20:10.000 Maybe the strategy is you're trying to push back against Chinese and Russian influence in all these countries because you can't attack them directly because you can't attack them directly, right?

00:20:20.000 Yeah.

00:20:21.000 But this is all just guessing on my part.

00:20:23.000 And that's what I'm really curious.

00:20:24.000 We're going to do some interviews on this trip to kind of like, I want to get someone on the show who can go, this is the strategy.

00:20:31.000 This is what we're doing.

00:20:32.000 Because I think, as we were saying earlier, it's not very clear to most people what the rationale behind all of this is.

00:20:39.000 But I also don't think this sort of like mad dog Trump idea is true either.

00:20:44.000 I think he has a strategy.

00:20:46.000 I'd just love to know what it is.

00:20:47.000 And it's very interesting because there's been talk about regime change in Cuba.

00:20:53.000 And one of the things, so...

00:20:55.000 I think that's next, genuinely.

00:20:57.000 Oh, my God.

00:20:58.000 I think that's next.

00:20:59.000 So when Chavez came to power in 99, what he did, and not enough people talk about this, is he turned what was very corrupt, admittedly, liberal Western-style democracy into a communist dictatorship.

00:21:13.000 And how do you do that?

00:21:14.000 You can't just literally do that overnight.

00:21:17.000 So what he did is he allied with the Cubans and Fidel in particular, Fidel Castro.

00:21:23.000 Venezuela provided Cuba with cheap oil, which helped to keep the Cuban economy afloat because Cuba has been going broke since however many years, 40 odd years.

00:21:33.000 And what Castro did was he gave him the boots on the ground in Venezuela, but also the technical expertise and know-how in order to change a Western liberal democracy into a communist state with permanent surveillance, secret police, subjugate the population so there was no chance of them ever being able to revolt and turn everything into, like I said, into a communist state.

00:21:57.000 So by what they did in Venezuela, Venezuela can no longer support Cuba.

00:22:02.000 So Cuba is literally now withering on the vine as a result of them knocking out the Venezuelans.

00:22:10.000 So it's going to come to a point where you say Cuba are effectively going to go bankrupt, which could precipitate an uprising, a revolution by people when people can no longer eat.

00:22:21.000 And that would mean that that country is then weakened.

00:22:24.000 Finally, they can get rid of the communist regime there and they can have a different type of government, one which will be far more sympathetic, shall we say, to working with America and being an American island possibly.

00:22:36.000 That makes sense to me in a way.

00:22:37.000 What I don't understand about the Iran thing is like, what is the end goal here?

00:22:42.000 Well, you've got the Reza Bahlavi, the Shah's son.

00:22:46.000 I mean, he left Iran a long time ago as a kid, right?

00:22:49.000 You know, the idea that he's going to go back in there and be welcomed by the masses, maybe that's true.

00:22:55.000 It's like Daenerys returning to the Iron Throne.

00:22:55.000 Maybe that's true.

00:22:58.000 Yeah, but Daenerys had three fucking dragons.

00:23:02.000 Right?

00:23:03.000 But you know what I'm saying?

00:23:04.000 Like, she left when she was a baby.

00:23:05.000 Yeah, that's right.

00:23:06.000 Yeah, that's right.

00:23:07.000 And it's not like the people are desperately.

00:23:09.000 I don't know.

00:23:09.000 Maybe the people are desperate for the return of the state.

00:23:11.000 Well, it seems like some people are desperate for a change there.

00:23:14.000 The people that were protesting, people that risked their lives.

00:23:17.000 100%.

00:23:18.000 But like every country, like if you only listen to the liberals in this country, you would think that no one's illegal on stolen land.

00:23:27.000 If you only listen to the Republicans in this country, you would think we've got to find every illegal and get him out of our country and make America great again.

00:23:36.000 It doesn't make sense if we just go only by the protesters.

00:23:40.000 We don't really have accurate polling because they don't have any free speech over there.

00:23:44.000 And they've killed famous athletes over there for protesting.

00:23:49.000 I mean, they killed the Olympic gold medalists in wrestling.

00:23:51.000 When the UFC tried to step in and try to do something to stop it, they executed him.

00:23:57.000 Apparently, I don't even think he was actually protesting.

00:24:00.000 I think he was just at a protest.

00:24:02.000 He wasn't even saying anything.

00:24:04.000 And this is the thing you always have to bear in mind, Joe.

00:24:07.000 I might be wrong about that, though.

00:24:08.000 No, I think you are right.

00:24:09.000 Am I right about that?

00:24:10.000 The final details, I'm not sure, but the fact that he was executed.

00:24:13.000 Yes, he was.

00:24:14.000 I know Dana worked very hard to try and save that to him.

00:24:16.000 I think there was some discrepancy as to whether or not he was actually participating in the protest.

00:24:23.000 That also could have been the defense.

00:24:25.000 I don't know.

00:24:25.000 But I mean, the fact that they execute people who protest, there's no way you can support that kind of.

00:24:32.000 That's a scary ass fucking government and run by religious fanatics.

00:24:35.000 That's a scary ass government.

00:24:36.000 But the question is, how scary ass does it have to get where invading makes sense?

00:24:42.000 Because if this keeps going, like if we have to go boots on the ground, that's where things get nuts.

00:24:48.000 You can't go boots on the ground, man.

00:24:50.000 You can't.

00:24:51.000 Right.

00:24:52.000 But I don't think there's anything.

00:24:54.000 You should be president of the United States.

00:24:57.000 There's a lot of people that are going to disagree with that.

00:25:02.000 No, I don't think that's viable.

00:25:05.000 Just like that.

00:25:06.000 There might be robot boots on the ground.

00:25:08.000 You know, if Elon gets that factory up in time.

00:25:08.000 Yeah.

00:25:10.000 But what I want to know is, like, what is it that you're working towards?

00:25:15.000 Right.

00:25:16.000 Like, so from what I understand, talking to some of the people, like, Israel would quite like a Reza Pahlavi monarchy because the other Middle Eastern countries that they have peace with, you know, Bahrain, Morocco, increasingly the Gulf states, they're all monarchies.

00:25:16.000 Right.

00:25:34.000 Right.

00:25:34.000 Right?

00:25:35.000 Right.

00:25:35.000 So they're down with that.

00:25:37.000 But from what I understand, the White House is really not that interested in Pahlavi.

00:25:42.000 And so what do they want?

00:25:44.000 Well, one of the things that Richard Minnetter broke on our show, because it hadn't been reported anywhere else, was that the White House has given the Israelis a no-kill list, which is basically a list of members of the current regime that they don't want to be killed because they have hoped that these people could then be the Rodriguez equivalent in Iran.

00:26:05.000 And I don't know that the fanatics within the Iranian regime who are there now, how many of them are like this mod, like Darth Vader but like, like, do you know what I mean?

00:26:16.000 Yeah.

00:26:16.000 You're kind of looking for.

00:26:17.000 Darth Vader zero.

00:26:18.000 Yeah, no, no, no, no, zero Islamism.

00:26:22.000 Like, I don't know that that exists, right?

00:26:25.000 Sugar-free.

00:26:26.000 Islamism-free.

00:26:26.000 Sugar-free.

00:26:29.000 So that's the bit.

00:26:31.000 And that doesn't mean that there isn't like a plan, but I don't know what the fuck that plan is right now.

00:26:35.000 And I find it hard to see one.

00:26:37.000 So evil regime gone, wonderful.

00:26:40.000 But the question is always like, what comes after that?

00:26:43.000 That's always the question.

00:26:44.000 And that's where I think your point is very true, which is in the past, there have been times where this sort of approach has gone completely off the rails.

00:26:52.000 That's a fact.

00:26:53.000 And it's also as well, what has been coming out of the Trump camp is contradictory, to put it mildly.

00:26:58.000 You have Hegsef saying one thing, you have Trump saying another.

00:27:01.000 They contradict each other at certain points.

00:27:03.000 Is that a tactic in order to befuddle the opponent?

00:27:06.000 Maybe, who knows?

00:27:07.000 Or is it the fact that they don't actually have a grand vision?

00:27:10.000 Was there some sort of a concession today on Russian oil?

00:27:14.000 Yeah.

00:27:15.000 Well, I think, first of all, Trump let India buy Iranian oil.

00:27:19.000 And I think now they are lifting the sanctions on Russia selling its oil because the oil prices spiked as much as they did.

00:27:25.000 Right.

00:27:26.000 Here it goes.

00:27:27.000 U.S. eases limits on Russian energy as oil prices soar.

00:27:31.000 Right.

00:27:31.000 Doom, Yeah.

00:27:40.000 Well, you've got the Pink Floyd tier, so it's appropriate.

00:27:43.000 But you can see it.

00:27:44.000 Like, the oil prices spiked for what?

00:27:47.000 One day, two days?

00:27:48.000 Yeah.

00:27:49.000 And everyone went full panic straight away.

00:27:52.000 But the thing is, if that carries on for two months, the impact of that on domestic politics, I mean, I'm not an expert in American politics, but even I can say that's going to be pretty fucking important.

00:28:03.000 Oh, it's bad.

00:28:04.000 Right.

00:28:05.000 Yeah, it's going to be bad.

00:28:07.000 I mean, if oil prices spike, we're fucked.

00:28:09.000 You know, and the Republicans are really fucked.

00:28:09.000 Yeah.

00:28:12.000 Yeah.

00:28:13.000 And you've got the midterms.

00:28:14.000 You've got the midterms coming up in November, and it's also the momentum will be in their way.

00:28:19.000 And look, there's, you know, second, third, fourth order consequences.

00:28:23.000 So at the moment in the UK, the vast majority of people are finding it more and more difficult just to get through to the end of the month because of the cost of living, inflation.

00:28:34.000 It's becoming worse and worse.

00:28:36.000 I was talking to a butcher in my area, which is this very nice part of North London.

00:28:41.000 You know the type of place I'm talking about.

00:28:43.000 Everyone loves BLM.

00:28:44.000 No one has a black friend.

00:28:45.000 That kind of place, right?

00:28:48.000 Okay, that's the kind of area it is.

00:28:50.000 And he was telling me that even in this very wealthy area, people are starting to rush in meat now.

00:28:55.000 So before they'd have meat five days a week, now they're going down to three or two.

00:28:59.000 And this isn't a wealthy area.

00:29:01.000 So now imagine if there's energy spikes and then food becomes more and more expensive.

00:29:06.000 There is already a very worrying, hard left political movement growing in the UK where they're talking about, you know, capitalism doesn't work.

00:29:17.000 We need socialism.

00:29:18.000 And there's this new politician come to the fore, a guy called Zach Polanski, who talks about what we need in this country and the UK is socialism.

00:29:28.000 Now imagine if the cost of living crisis gets worse and the vast majority of people who work hard in a regular job can't make ends meet through literal no fault of their own.

00:29:39.000 Can you blame them for going, hang on, capitalism doesn't work?

00:29:42.000 Because in this instance, at that moment, it doesn't work for them.

00:29:47.000 And then that could spark something completely disastrous for our country.

00:29:52.000 But I think, you know, that's a negative story.

00:29:54.000 I think it's incredibly persuasive.

00:29:56.000 And I lean more in the direction that this could go badly.

00:30:00.000 But I also think there is the possibility of this goes well, too.

00:30:04.000 I think that is possible.

00:30:07.000 How do you envision that scenario?

00:30:08.000 Well, so if they're able to keep the straight of humans open and you don't have this energy problems that we've got now, you know, Venezuela, Cuba, he's basically resetting the region and he's basically saying to all the people that want to align themselves with China and Russia, like, we're not fucking about here.

00:30:28.000 Don't cross these lines.

00:30:30.000 That is an opportunity to address the slide that the Western world has had vis-a-vis China and Russia for a very long time.

00:30:37.000 That could be a very positive thing.

00:30:39.000 The thing is, what happens in Iran, like, that is the thing that I don't really see how that goes well.

00:30:46.000 Might do.

00:30:47.000 Like I said, there's probably a plan that we don't know.

00:30:49.000 And if that works out, that could be very good.

00:30:53.000 Okay, what would you imagine that plan would be?

00:30:55.000 If you like, let's imagine, best case scenario, you're in the White House, they're all very rational.

00:31:03.000 No one's being influenced by foreign governments, no one's incompetent, everybody knows what they're doing.

00:31:09.000 Well, yeah, I mean, we're in the realms of fantasy now.

00:31:11.000 That's why I'm right.

00:31:14.000 But, I mean, take the Soviet Union, which is obviously something that I know, right?

00:31:18.000 Being born in the Soviet Union, Russia.

00:31:20.000 Towards the end of the Soviet Union, you still had some fanatical communists.

00:31:24.000 And in fact, throughout the Soviet Union, you always had within the government a mixture of different people, right?

00:31:30.000 You had the fanatical communists who believed that communism is the only thing that was ever going to work, et cetera.

00:31:35.000 But you also had people who were reformers.

00:31:38.000 They saw the problems.

00:31:39.000 They saw that the fanatical communists were ruining things and things were getting worse, right?

00:31:45.000 They saw that you had to kill more and more of your own people to keep shit locked down, right?

00:31:50.000 So the argument could be within the Iranian Revolutionary Guard or the regime more broadly, there are people who are like, you know, I'm not necessarily that keen on the guy who runs Sirina, Al-Jilani, right?

00:32:04.000 He is a jihadi, but he's kind of like a moderate one.

00:32:07.000 You know, you know, how long that, I don't know how long it's going to last.

00:32:10.000 But my point is, within every regime, there is some range of opinion.

00:32:14.000 There is some range of fanaticism.

00:32:16.000 There is some range of people who, partly for generational reasons.

00:32:20.000 You know, the younger people have seen, you know, a 40-year history and they now go, okay, this isn't working anymore.

00:32:26.000 We need to try something else.

00:32:27.000 That is possible.

00:32:29.000 So if the CIA and the White House have someone like that and they can do a regime adjustment, and like, I think the idea that you're going to have, you know, multi-parliamentary democracy with free and fair elections and women with, you know, like Venice Beach, you know, rollerblading on bikinis on.

00:32:51.000 I don't know that that's going to happen, right?

00:32:54.000 But what you might have is an authoritarian regime of some kind, like many other countries in the Middle East, which realizes that actually economic growth is more important than shouting al-Akbah every three minutes and blowing shit up, right?

00:33:09.000 That focuses on making life better for their citizens, that, you know, practices traditional Muslim values, which many countries do, and says, you know, women ought to be modest, but doesn't force them to wear the burqa or the headscarf or whatever, and is less interested in destabilizing the region and attacking others and trying to be this great power,

00:33:33.000 and is more interested in just prosperity for its own people, survival for themselves as a regime, and is willing to play ball with the United States.

00:33:43.000 Yeah, well said.

00:33:43.000 Well said.

00:33:44.000 That's best case scenario.

00:33:45.000 That's best case scenario.

00:33:45.000 Now, if you get there, I think that would be a huge win for President Trump and it'd be a huge win for the world.

00:33:52.000 And he will walk away from that with a huge win.

00:33:55.000 And I think, you know, you're a better expert on the American people, but I think American people like winning, right?

00:34:00.000 So if you have all this happen, he can then say, well, look, we did this, we did this, we did this.

00:34:06.000 Russia and China have been pushed back.

00:34:07.000 We've got a, you know, the situation, Iran is not going to get a nuke, which is important.

00:34:11.000 I think we can all agree on that, right?

00:34:14.000 There is the possibility that he comes out of this very well.

00:34:19.000 I think that based on what I see, but I don't know, coming back to what we said, I think we share this kind of perspective, really, Francis and I.

00:34:26.000 That seems somewhat less likely at this point, at least harder to see.

00:34:30.000 But I think you can tell a persuasive story both ways.

00:34:33.000 I really do.

00:34:34.000 That makes sense.

00:34:35.000 And what you're saying, I think, is very valid that we need to abandon any idea of them having some sort of a democracy over there.

00:34:41.000 It's not going to happen.

00:34:43.000 No.

00:34:45.000 And, you know, you do look at the relationships that we have with other Gulf State nations.

00:34:52.000 Seems fine, right?

00:34:53.000 It's not threatening to us.

00:34:55.000 We would like everyone to be free and have the same sort of liberal democracy that we have in America, but, okay, you like that all, want that all day long.

00:35:05.000 You can't do anything to change the way other people govern themselves, especially when you've gotten to the point where, like, take any of the Middle Eastern countries, for example.

00:35:16.000 Some of these people are worth trillions of dollars.

00:35:18.000 These royal families have been running it forever.

00:35:21.000 They have insane amounts of oil money.

00:35:23.000 Good luck.

00:35:24.000 Good luck getting them out of there.

00:35:26.000 Good luck saying we should just vote and have a president and you don't have any power anymore.

00:35:32.000 How are you going to pull that off?

00:35:34.000 Especially if things are going well for the people that live there.

00:35:38.000 Like I have a friend who moved to Dubai and he's an American and he moved back to America recently.

00:35:45.000 But he was over there and he said, dude, you could leave a Rolex on the street and people would pick it up and bring it to the police.

00:35:51.000 It's so safe.

00:35:53.000 He's like, there's no crime.

00:35:54.000 And he's black.

00:35:55.000 And he's like, I worry when I go out in America, I'm going to get shot.

00:35:59.000 I'm worried I'm going to go to a club and someone's going to start beefing and shooting up the place and I'm going to get hit.

00:36:04.000 He goes, I don't think about that at all over here.

00:36:06.000 There's none of that.

00:36:08.000 He goes, it's safer.

00:36:09.000 Is it fucked up that it's run by a king?

00:36:13.000 I guess.

00:36:15.000 Is it that much different than a president?

00:36:19.000 I mean, in a way, it's a leader, right?

00:36:22.000 You've got more checks and balances over here.

00:36:24.000 You've got Congress.

00:36:25.000 You've got the Senate.

00:36:26.000 You've got all this shit going on with the Supreme Court.

00:36:28.000 You have all these different human beings that also have a say and can block things.

00:36:33.000 But at the end of the day, we're still under this bizarre alpha male chimpanzee structure that has existed from the time that we were 150 people in a fucking tribe, right?

00:36:46.000 So it's still one guy running things.

00:36:49.000 It's just running things their way.

00:36:51.000 And if you were a citizen in Dubai, pretty fucking good, right?

00:36:56.000 Well, your point about the UAE is really interesting because not only is on the practical level of safety and other things, but also they don't have the Islamism problem that we have in Britain and increasingly you guys are starting to see here because they recognize that it's a problem and they deal with it.

00:37:13.000 So I don't know if you saw this news story.

00:37:15.000 The UAE no longer gives sponsorships to their students to go to the UK because they're worried their kids are going to get radicalized by Islamists in Britain.

00:37:26.000 Which is fucking wild.

00:37:28.000 Yeah.

00:37:29.000 That is fucking wild.

00:37:30.000 And I mean, you were messaging me about the story with the Mamdani situation yesterday.

00:37:36.000 Yes.

00:37:36.000 You now have this problem in America.

00:37:38.000 Yes.

00:37:39.000 You have the Islamism problem here, where people who are supporters of ISIS are thrown buttons.

00:37:43.000 I mean, your media is pretending it's not happening, but it's fucking happening.

00:37:47.000 Well, it happened in Austin.

00:37:48.000 Right.

00:37:48.000 I mean, the guy who shot up that bar.

00:37:51.000 Because this is a problem.

00:37:52.000 I'm going to send that article to Jamie.

00:37:54.000 Jamie, you could probably find it on CNN because it's kind of hilarious.

00:37:58.000 It's incredible.

00:37:59.000 This was actually incredible.

00:38:00.000 The New York Times title change thing.

00:38:02.000 Did the New York Times change their title?

00:38:04.000 Yeah.

00:38:05.000 They did?

00:38:07.000 I wonder why.

00:38:08.000 All Istia scholars.

00:38:10.000 I'm going to send you the CNN one first.

00:38:12.000 The CNN one is really wild.

00:38:16.000 They had like fuses of things with smoke or something.

00:38:20.000 They'd either change it to bombs or something.

00:38:21.000 Yeah, fucking duh.

00:38:24.000 I'm sending you this one because the CNN one is, believe it or not, more preposterous.

00:38:28.000 The CNN one is so kooky.

00:38:31.000 You see their headline.

00:38:32.000 You're like, what kind of story are you painting here?

00:38:36.000 Like, this is such a crazy way to frame a guy showed up with bombs and was hurling them at people.

00:38:46.000 They made it sound like the exact opposite of what actually happened.

00:38:48.000 Well, it sounded like it was just a regular day.

00:38:51.000 Just a regular day for this fella.

00:38:53.000 And then things just went a little sideways somewhere along the line.

00:38:57.000 Listen, we've all got hobbies, man.

00:38:58.000 You know what I mean?

00:38:59.000 You like working out?

00:38:59.000 He has nail bombs.

00:39:01.000 Come on.

00:39:01.000 Did you get it, Jamie?

00:39:03.000 It's not coming through?

00:39:04.000 No, look, it's not loading there.

00:39:07.000 Oh, interesting.

00:39:08.000 But let me see if they took it down.

00:39:12.000 I'd guess they would have.

00:39:13.000 You probably have an old link that's.

00:39:15.000 Okay, that's the New York Times one I sent you on for.

00:39:17.000 Oh, well, no, that's the one I just clicked on.

00:39:19.000 Let me check the original one.

00:39:20.000 Nothing to see here.

00:39:21.000 Interesting.

00:39:23.000 They probably deleted it.

00:39:24.000 Okay, here I found it.

00:39:25.000 I found it.

00:39:26.000 Two Pennsylvania teenagers crossed into New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day, enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather.

00:39:35.000 But in less than an hour, their lives would drastically change as the pair would be arrested for throwing homemade bombs.

00:39:43.000 That is CNN's tweet.

00:39:46.000 I'm going to send you a screenshot because I do believe they've taken it down.

00:39:49.000 It's brilliant.

00:39:50.000 Yep, nothing to see here yet.

00:39:52.000 Yeah, they took it down.

00:39:53.000 That's not a headline, though.

00:39:54.000 That's like a sex.

00:39:55.000 No, I'm going to send you the actual tweet because they did take it down because it's so fucking ridiculous.

00:40:03.000 But the internet never forgets.

00:40:06.000 I'm sending it to you here.

00:40:07.000 Thank God I saved it.

00:40:09.000 It took a screenshot.

00:40:10.000 Because I'm like, this is such a crazy way to frame two guys wanting to do a terror attack.

00:40:18.000 Yeah.

00:40:19.000 But it's not an accident, Joe.

00:40:20.000 It's not crazy.

00:40:21.000 You know it's not crazy.

00:40:21.000 No.

00:40:22.000 Look how it's framed here.

00:40:24.000 This is the original tweet.

00:40:25.000 Two Pennsylvania teenagers, just regular fails from PA, from Philly.

00:40:30.000 Two Philly boys had a couple of cheese steaks and then got on the train.

00:40:35.000 Crossing New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day, enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather.

00:40:40.000 Why the fuck would you even say that?

00:40:42.000 Could have been a normal day if they weren't going there to commit terrorism.

00:40:45.000 Do you know what it reads like?

00:40:46.000 It reads like when I used to teach 13-year-olds creative writing.

00:40:50.000 That's how they'd all start off.

00:40:51.000 You know, it was like a normal day.

00:40:54.000 I mean, I'd like to know who wrote that.

00:40:57.000 Who's the person who wrote that?

00:40:58.000 And I want to know if that were you directed to write it that way?

00:41:01.000 Who approved it?

00:41:02.000 Who edited it?

00:41:02.000 Yeah.

00:41:04.000 Are you trying to downplay the possibility of, first of all, now in New York?

00:41:09.000 Because you have a guy who's an avowed, whatever he is, Democratic socialist, some say communist, but also Muslim.

00:41:17.000 And then you have these Islamists who are doing a terrorist attack.

00:41:22.000 So are you trying to soften that?

00:41:23.000 Yeah, but they are.

00:41:25.000 So what happened, just so people know, is there was a protest outside Mamdanny's mansion.

00:41:30.000 Right.

00:41:31.000 And then these two people turned up and threw bombs at the protesters.

00:41:35.000 And the way it was reported, if you just read that and no other stuff, you would have come away with the conclusion that it was the protesters who were the targets of the bombs.

00:41:46.000 They were the ones that threw the bombs.

00:41:48.000 No one officially said that that's what happened, but the way they did the story and the headline, you would have got that impression.

00:41:55.000 And you're just going, well, you're just on a team.

00:41:59.000 You see this as a team game.

00:42:00.000 Right.

00:42:01.000 And you want to present your team in the correct light.

00:42:01.000 Right.

00:42:04.000 Oh, the new post.

00:42:06.000 A post regarding two individuals arrested for throwing handmade bombs outside of New York City Mayor Zohan Mamdani's home failed to reflect the gravity of the incident, thereby breaching the editorial standards we require for all our reporting.

00:42:20.000 It has therefore been deleted.

00:42:22.000 But see how skillful this is, Joe.

00:42:23.000 This is gaslighting again, they're saying their mistake was to what?

00:42:28.000 Look at the first post.

00:42:30.000 This guy's a donut operator.

00:42:31.000 Now you retards got called out for trying to downplay actual terrorism, and now you're backpedaling.

00:42:36.000 Yep.

00:42:37.000 Who's that second guy?

00:42:38.000 He's really smart.

00:42:39.000 Didn't fail to reflect the gravity of the situation.

00:42:42.000 This guy named Constantine, I think he's on the trigonometry show.

00:42:44.000 Yeah.

00:42:45.000 Reflect the gravity of the situation.

00:42:47.000 It failed to accurately communicate who was responsible, who the intended victims were, and where the blame for the attempted terrorist attack lay.

00:42:55.000 In other words, you didn't accidentally downplay the seriousness of it.

00:42:59.000 You deliberately misrepresented what happened to conceal the truth from the public.

00:43:03.000 Well, that's how AI would say it.

00:43:07.000 I still write my own shit, John.

00:43:09.000 I know you do, but I like the donut operator guy.

00:43:12.000 Yeah, I know.

00:43:14.000 He's more yoga petitions.

00:43:16.000 But that is that is what happened, though, right?

00:43:18.000 That is what happened.

00:43:19.000 But that's what's really scary about this world we're living in right now because we're so ideologically captured, both right and left.

00:43:28.000 Everyone in this country looks at this administration as an existential threat to democracy itself and our way of life and fill in the blank, whatever marginalized groups are all going to be round up and put in internet camps.

00:43:42.000 This is the narrative that the most radical of the left have about the sky's falling because Trump's in office.

00:43:48.000 But it's also as well what people on the left don't want to acknowledge is the dangers of Islamism.

00:43:53.000 When they see people do these kind of horrific terror attacks, when they see, for instance, what happened in the London Bridge terror attacks in 2019 or what happened in Manchester in the Ariana Grande concert where Islamic terrorists bombed a Ariana Grande concert and the majority of the audience were little girls, were young girls.

00:44:15.000 And they say, oh, this happened because, you know, they were marginalized and they felt angry.

00:44:21.000 And this is what people do when you push them to one side and they don't have a means in order to express themselves.

00:44:26.000 You're going, no, what this is, is an ideology.

00:44:30.000 It's an ideology which believes that our civilization, our way of life, is evil.

00:44:36.000 But also, they want to establish their form of radical Islam across the globe.

00:44:41.000 They want to create a global Islamic caliphate.

00:44:43.000 And they will do whatever it takes in order to achieve that goal.

00:44:46.000 But people in the West, they can't understand that because it's so alien for how we see things.

00:44:53.000 We believe human life is precious.

00:44:55.000 We believe the most important thing is human life.

00:44:57.000 They don't.

00:44:58.000 They believe the cause is more important than your life.

00:45:01.000 And we can't understand that because we're raised in a world that is fundamentally Christian, even though we might not be.

00:45:08.000 We still have Christian values.

00:45:09.000 We had a guest on the show, a wonderful historian called Tom Holland, and he explained this to us.

00:45:14.000 That even if you're not Christian, even if you think you were raised by atheist parents, you were still raised with Christian values.

00:45:23.000 That's the soup in which we live.

00:45:25.000 That's the water in which we swim.

00:45:27.000 So this way of life that these people have, this ideology, is so alien to us that we can't understand it.

00:45:34.000 But also, we don't want to understand it.

00:45:36.000 Because if you start to actually investigate what these people believe, what their ideology is, you realize that we are not all the same.

00:45:45.000 And these people believe something very, very different.

00:45:48.000 And then we're going to have a very uncomfortable conversation of how do you tackle this?

00:45:54.000 Because can you have Western liberal democratic values and Islamism and people who are Islamists in the same society?

00:46:00.000 And the answer is you can't.

00:46:02.000 And I think it's really important, your point, the difference between Islamists and Muslims.

00:46:06.000 Yes.

00:46:07.000 The Muslims are these Gulf State people.

00:46:09.000 Muslims are these people in Dubai and Saudi Arabia.

00:46:12.000 Islamists are the ones that want the caliphate.

00:46:14.000 Yeah.

00:46:15.000 But then you have the crazy Christians.

00:46:17.000 And that thing that I sent you, the Yahoo thing that we talked about yesterday with Schellenberger, the Yahoo thing is nuts.

00:46:23.000 So these military leaders, so this comes from one of the non-commissioned officers who went to a briefing.

00:46:30.000 He goes to a briefing and they inform him that you shouldn't be scared because this is all because President Trump is anointed by Jesus and this is to bring about Armageddon so that Jesus returns to earth.

00:46:44.000 This isn't a fucking military briefing.

00:46:47.000 One such note included an anecdote from a non-commissioned officer who reported that their commander had urged us to tell our troops this war was all a part of God's divine plan.

00:46:57.000 And he specifically referenced numerous citations out of the book of Revelations referring to Armageddon and the imminent return of Jesus Christ.

00:47:04.000 This is fucking crazy.

00:47:06.000 He said this morning our committee, so this is an officer who's talking about this.

00:47:11.000 This morning our commander opened up the combat readiness status briefing by urging us to not be afraid as to what was happening with our combat operations in Iran.

00:47:18.000 He said President Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to earth.

00:47:28.000 He said he had a big grin on his face when he said all this, which made his message seem even more crazy.

00:47:33.000 Well, that's reassuring.

00:47:36.000 This is the scary arm of the right.

00:47:40.000 This is the scariest arm of the right.

00:47:42.000 The people that think that this is one of the main reasons, the Mai Kakabi people.

00:47:46.000 I think this is the main reason to protect Israel.

00:47:48.000 It's a part of God's plan.

00:47:50.000 You know, Israel is where Jesus is going to return.

00:47:52.000 He's going to return to Jerusalem.

00:47:54.000 Yikes.

00:47:56.000 Yeah, I've never really understood that.

00:47:57.000 Like, I think you can argue for, you can be pro-Israel for pragmatic reasons.

00:48:02.000 This religious stuff is a little bit weird to me.

00:48:07.000 But the problem is, you've got fanatics like the Islamists, but you've also got these Christian, hard-right Christian nationalists that really believe that this is a part of biblical prophecy and that this is the book of Revelation.

00:48:24.000 It's about to go down.

00:48:25.000 And they want it to go down.

00:48:27.000 This is fucking terrifying.

00:48:29.000 This is really interesting for us because in the UK, Christianity has been dig-fanged to the point where there's a trans flag on practically every church.

00:48:41.000 So this idea of having these hardcore right-wing fundamentalist Christians, we just don't experience it.

00:48:47.000 We don't have that really.

00:48:48.000 Yeah, it's like, can't everybody live in the middle?

00:48:51.000 Why do you have to go all the way over to we got to start Armageddon?

00:48:55.000 Jesus is going to come back on a white horse.

00:48:57.000 You ever read the book of Revelations?

00:48:59.000 Yeah, I got really into it.

00:49:01.000 The book of Revelations is kooky.

00:49:02.000 You know, they really believe that Jesus is going to return on a horse.

00:49:06.000 Why a horse?

00:49:07.000 A white horse.

00:49:08.000 It's a bit racist.

00:49:09.000 A little bit.

00:49:11.000 I mean, I don't get.

00:49:13.000 I don't.

00:49:14.000 Can we have a diverse horse at least for the Army?

00:49:16.000 Why am I a horse of colour, John?

00:49:17.000 You want me to read you the passage?

00:49:19.000 Because I saved it because it's kind of kooky.

00:49:21.000 Because it's one of those things where you just go, well, who fucking believes this?

00:49:26.000 Is this really what you think is going to go down?

00:49:28.000 Because someone wrote it down on paper 2,000 years ago in ancient Hebrew.

00:49:34.000 It says, heaven opens and Christ appears on a white horse to judge and wage war, called faithful and true with eyes like fire, many crowns, and the name King of King and Lord of Lords.

00:49:48.000 Just imagine it's 2026 and you're like, that's the blueprint, boys.

00:49:53.000 But this is just as scary.

00:49:54.000 And especially for people that are Muslims, right?

00:49:56.000 Yeah.

00:49:57.000 Or anybody who lives in the Middle East.

00:49:58.000 Like, this is more important than human life.

00:50:01.000 This is more important than international law.

00:50:04.000 This is like in the eyes of the crazy on the right, this is the problem.

00:50:10.000 So it's like, it's not like one side.

00:50:12.000 It's like all good over here.

00:50:14.000 We have to fight against the Islamists.

00:50:15.000 Now, we've got some kooks over here, too.

00:50:19.000 If that guy's for real and that guy's in a position of power and he's really having combat readiness meetings where he's telling people that we have to bomb and start Armageddon so Jesus can come back on a white horse, fucking yo.

00:50:31.000 Like, that's kooky.

00:50:33.000 The thing that is probably reassuring somewhat is like, I don't, President Trump doesn't strike me as one of those people.

00:50:39.000 He's not.

00:50:39.000 He's not, right?

00:50:40.000 Whereas the leader of Iran is.

00:50:43.000 Right, but people in the military, I think, are as well.

00:50:46.000 Yeah.

00:50:46.000 And people in high positions in the military, I think, maybe as well.

00:50:49.000 If this guy can give that kind of a meeting and that kind of a speech at a meeting, that's a little terrifying.

00:50:56.000 And if I was over there, I'd be freaking the fuck out.

00:50:59.000 If I'd be like, this is your plan?

00:51:01.000 I'm cannon fodder so that Jesus can come back.

00:51:04.000 My body's going to be a part of the fucking signal fire.

00:51:08.000 Let's be honest, though.

00:51:09.000 It wouldn't be that much of a plot twist for 2026, would it?

00:51:12.000 Right.

00:51:13.000 It would be the final episode 10, Game of Thrones, season 6.

00:51:19.000 Yes.

00:51:20.000 I mean, it is getting fucking what.

00:51:22.000 And that's when the aliens come.

00:51:23.000 Maybe that's what they're doing.

00:51:25.000 You know, the whole thing is, there's not a sane person on either side.

00:51:31.000 The whole thing is nuts.

00:51:33.000 And it's like, it doesn't make sense to anybody.

00:51:38.000 And that's what scares the shit out of me.

00:51:40.000 Yeah.

00:51:42.000 The thing that scares me is what Constantine has addressed is I don't get worried unless I can't see a way out or the way that this is resolved.

00:51:52.000 And like you said, the coin is in the air.

00:51:54.000 And I'm slightly of more pessimistic nature.

00:51:57.000 He's more of an optimist.

00:51:59.000 But as I look at it and I think to myself, this could go so wrong, so badly wrong, that it could make Iraq look like an absolute picnic in comparison.

00:52:10.000 Yeah.

00:52:10.000 Well, especially if terrorist attacks start popping off over in America, like major ones, you know, and that could be bad for everything.

00:52:18.000 That could be bad for freedom of speech.

00:52:20.000 That could be bad for rights.

00:52:23.000 That could be bad for incorporation of digital ID.

00:52:27.000 There would be a good way to push that through.

00:52:29.000 There's a lot of stuff that would go through that would radically change, just like the Patriot Act did.

00:52:33.000 Patriot Act radically changed the freedoms that we have in America and the overreach that the government is allowed to do.

00:52:40.000 Sorry, but we only just started being allowed to take water back on the fucking planes, right?

00:52:44.000 Right.

00:52:46.000 Maybe this is what it's all about.

00:52:48.000 You can't take water on the planet.

00:52:49.000 Didn't they decide to let people keep their sneakers on?

00:52:51.000 Wasn't that going on for a while?

00:52:53.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:52:54.000 You can't have that.

00:52:55.000 One fucking shoe bomber.

00:52:57.000 That Richard asshole, that one guy?

00:52:58.000 One guy.

00:53:00.000 And there was once, do you remember you weren't allowed to bring scissors on?

00:53:03.000 Like the small scissors?

00:53:04.000 I can't remember the comedian who said this, but he went, you know what?

00:53:07.000 If you take over an entire plane armed with nothing but water and some small scissors, you deserve the plane.

00:53:13.000 Well, here's the thing.

00:53:14.000 Like, you can bring skateboards, but you can't bring a pool cue.

00:53:18.000 So it doesn't make any sense.

00:53:19.000 Like, there's, like, I fuck you up with a skateboard.

00:53:24.000 I'll fuck a lot of people up with a skateboard.

00:53:26.000 You know, like, think about what kind of damage you could do with that big, heavy-ass thing.

00:53:31.000 You know?

00:53:31.000 Yeah, it's just...

00:53:33.000 And the worry is, when it comes to all of this, is you look at these guys and you go, do you have a vision for what is actually going to happen?

00:53:41.000 But I do think they do, though.

00:53:42.000 I do think they have a vision.

00:53:44.000 What I want to find out is what that vision is.

00:53:47.000 I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.

00:53:50.000 You don't think I am?

00:53:52.000 I think it's very possible that they thought this would be over much quicker.

00:53:56.000 They thought taking out the IT.

00:53:58.000 Look, look, just look at the success that they had in the initial bombing of Iran, right?

00:54:01.000 The initial bombing, they supposedly decapitated their ability to make nuclear bombs or at least stopped it for a long time.

00:54:08.000 And there was a lot of concessions that the Iranians were willing to submit to that they never submitted to under Obama or anybody else.

00:54:15.000 And that wasn't enough.

00:54:17.000 So the problem is when you're like we're talking about Desert Storm, you get away with something that works really well.

00:54:17.000 Right?

00:54:24.000 You're like, we know what we're doing.

00:54:26.000 And then you bite off more than you could chew.

00:54:28.000 Yeah, and especially once you've done Venezuela, you feel like you're kind of on a roll.

00:54:32.000 Right.

00:54:32.000 But it did this.

00:54:33.000 Yeah, I see your point.

00:54:35.000 I see your point.

00:54:36.000 I do think, though, I mean, from what I read, both Kushner and Witkoff both said that the Iranians were not playing ball, actually.

00:54:44.000 Okay.

00:54:45.000 Which is why they went in.

00:54:46.000 So obviously, if you think about it, given how long it takes for U.S. assets to get to the region, this decision would have been made weeks ago, at the very least.

00:54:54.000 And that's because, from what I understand, the negotiators like Iran isn't actually playing ball.

00:54:54.000 Right.

00:54:59.000 What they're doing is they're claiming publicly that they're willing to make concessions.

00:55:03.000 But when we sit down with them, that's not what's happening because all they're doing is stalling for time.

00:55:08.000 That makes more sense.

00:55:09.000 And so if you were worried that someone was in the middle of actually getting their uranium up to a point where you enrich it to nuclear bomb levels.

00:55:17.000 Right.

00:55:18.000 But I think a lot of people misunderstand that in the sense that, like, I think it's based on my understanding, it's totally false to claim that they were like about to develop a nuclear.

00:55:27.000 They were not.

00:55:28.000 Well, you've seen the compilation of Netanyahu saying Iran is two weeks away from developing a nuclear bomb all the way back to the 80s.

00:55:36.000 Have you seen that compilation?

00:55:37.000 No, I haven't.

00:55:38.000 It's wonderful.

00:55:38.000 No.

00:55:39.000 See if you can find it, Jamie.

00:55:39.000 Right.

00:55:41.000 Because it's so kooky.

00:55:42.000 I mean, he's been talking about this for fucking ever.

00:55:45.000 They're that close.

00:55:46.000 They're two weeks away.

00:55:49.000 And, you know, maybe they are.

00:55:51.000 You know, and maybe Stuxnet put a dent in that, right?

00:55:55.000 They used that virus program to kill all the computer programs that were running their nuclear program over there.

00:56:03.000 Yeah.

00:56:04.000 Well, I don't know that they were ever like two weeks from having a payload that was ready to be delivered to wherever.

00:56:04.000 Yeah.

00:56:11.000 But they were enriching uranium to levels that you only enrich if you want nuclear weapons, right?

00:56:17.000 And so I guess the question for Trump is like, do I allow this to continue?

00:56:21.000 And do I have to wait until they've got the fucking bomb on a launcher waiting to go?

00:56:26.000 There it is.

00:56:27.000 Let's hear it.

00:56:27.000 You've probably heard this line before.

00:56:30.000 Iran has never given up its quest for nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them.

00:56:35.000 That's because Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been saying this for more than 30 years, claiming Iran is close to having nuclear weapons.

00:56:45.000 Nuclear weapons, nuclear weapons.

00:56:47.000 Atomic bombs.

00:56:49.000 In 1992, as a member of parliament, Netanyahu addresses the Knesset.

00:56:54.000 He says, within three to five years, we can assume that Iran will become autonomous in its ability to develop and produce a nuclear bomb.

00:57:03.000 Three years later, in his book, Fighting Terrorism, he repeats the same timeframe, three to five years.

00:57:12.000 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:57:13.000 Fast forward to 2002.

00:57:15.000 Netanyahu testifies before a U.S. congressional committee actively calling for the invasion of Iraq.

00:57:22.000 Are there any other nations that you would recommend that the United States launch preemptive attacks upon at this point?

00:57:29.000 The two nations that are vignettes competing with each other, who will be the first to achieve nuclear weapons, is Iraq and Iran.

00:57:36.000 The invasion happens months later.

00:57:39.000 No.

00:57:40.000 Keep going on this.

00:57:42.000 Are found in Iraq.

00:57:44.000 This is a fragment of a 2009 U.S. State Department cable released by Wikileaks.

00:57:50.000 Netanyahu tells members of Congress that Iran is one or two years away from being capable of developing nuclear weapons.

00:58:00.000 It's 2012, and Netanyahu is holding up his infamous cartoon bomb at the UN General Assembly.

00:58:07.000 By next spring, at most, by next summer, at current enrichment rates, they will have finished the medium enrichment and move on to the final stage.

00:58:20.000 From there, it's only a few months, possibly a few weeks, before they get enough enriched uranium for the first bomb.

00:58:31.000 And now, 33 years after Netanyahu's first so-called imminent warning, Israel attacks Iran.

00:58:38.000 If not stopped, Iran could produce a nuclear weapon in a very short time.

00:58:43.000 It could be a year, it could be within a few months, less than a year.

00:58:48.000 That's despite the U.S. Director of National Intelligence saying Iran isn't building a nuclear weapon months earlier.

00:58:55.000 Iran lied.

00:58:57.000 But for Netanyahu, the slogan has been the same for decades.

00:59:02.000 Like I said, Victor Al Jazeera.

00:59:06.000 We get it.

00:59:08.000 Yeah, so, but here's the thing.

00:59:10.000 Maybe he's kind of right, but they haven't ever done it.

00:59:13.000 Right.

00:59:14.000 Yeah.

00:59:14.000 Well, they certainly are enriching uranium to a point where it's more than you need for power.

00:59:21.000 Right.

00:59:21.000 So why are they doing that?

00:59:23.000 Right.

00:59:24.000 And so I guess for Trump, the calculation is like, I'm in my last term.

00:59:28.000 I might as well, you know, roll the dice, go and deal with it now.

00:59:32.000 Could end very badly, as we've discussed.

00:59:35.000 There is a way that it ends well.

00:59:37.000 We will see what happens.

00:59:38.000 I just honestly don't think anyone knows how it's going to end.

00:59:40.000 I don't think anyone knows.

00:59:42.000 How can you?

00:59:43.000 There's so many moving parts.

00:59:45.000 It's like if I ask you who's, you know, Dana White just announced the UFC card for the White House, right?

00:59:50.000 Who's going to win Justin Gaichi Oila Topora?

00:59:50.000 Yeah.

00:59:53.000 You're not going to say, this is what's going to happen.

00:59:56.000 Right.

00:59:57.000 You don't know.

00:59:57.000 Because nobody knows.

00:59:58.000 Right.

00:59:58.000 Yeah.

00:59:59.000 And this is like a hundred times more complicated than that.

01:00:01.000 Yeah.

01:00:01.000 Right.

01:00:03.000 Yeah, at least.

01:00:04.000 At least.

01:00:05.000 Yeah.

01:00:06.000 Probably several thousand times more.

01:00:08.000 So it's a it's a gamble.

01:00:09.000 And you've got to, I mean, you've got to think, if this goes badly, this is legacy defining for all involved.

01:00:18.000 For all involved.

01:00:19.000 Yeah.

01:00:20.000 This will, this will, whatever you've done up to that point, it's like Blair and Bush.

01:00:25.000 Tony Blair, people forget in our country, Tony Blair was immensely popular.

01:00:30.000 And then Iraq happened.

01:00:32.000 And if you mentioned Tony Blair now, the only thing anyone remembers is Iraq.

01:00:36.000 So for context, Tony Blair was one of the people.

01:00:41.000 Tony Blair is a hero in Kosovo because he effectively stopped the large part of the reason the war in Kosovo ended was Tony Blair.

01:00:49.000 I think there was something, I saw a story that kids when people were naming their kids Tony Blair, right?

01:00:54.000 They regret it now.

01:00:58.000 He was one of the central people in the Northern Ireland peace deal, bringing peace to Northern Ireland.

01:01:03.000 For people of our age who grew up in the UK, we never thought we'd see peace in Northern Ireland.

01:01:08.000 Northern Ireland was a glorified civil war, and it had been for however long.

01:01:13.000 Right the way from the 60s, the 70s, the 80s.

01:01:16.000 And he was one of those people instrumental in bringing peace to Northern Ireland.

01:01:20.000 It was a miracle.

01:01:21.000 It was a total miracle that that happened, the Good Friday Agreement, and it was other people as well, like Mo Molin, etc.

01:01:28.000 So you look at Blair, he was on a roll.

01:01:31.000 He must have thought to himself, everything I do turns to gold here.

01:01:35.000 I have achieved peace in Kosovo, peace in Northern Ireland.

01:01:40.000 Why can't I invade Iraq and Afghanistan and install democracies and bring peace to the Middle East?

01:01:47.000 I've done it to Northern Ireland.

01:01:48.000 No one ever thought that could happen.

01:01:51.000 So this will, whichever way it goes, I think it will be defining for the people involved.

01:01:57.000 If it goes well, this is like the biggest, you know, Hail Mary touchdown in history in some ways.

01:02:05.000 Goes badly, that will define this.

01:02:09.000 Certainly from an outside perspective, that's what I see.

01:02:11.000 It's going to define the presidency.

01:02:13.000 I mean, I don't know how you can argue with that, really.

01:02:15.000 Can you?

01:02:16.000 No.

01:02:16.000 No, I don't know how you can argue with it either.

01:02:19.000 But that's what's so interesting about people that absolutely know how it's going to play out.

01:02:24.000 You know, you don't.

01:02:25.000 And then there's also the New York Times thing.

01:02:28.000 Did they change that, Jamie?

01:02:29.000 Or did they take it down?

01:02:32.000 I just sent it to you.

01:02:35.000 So what does it say?

01:02:36.000 So does New York Times still have it up?

01:02:37.000 That's from a day ago, it says.

01:02:39.000 Wow.

01:02:40.000 Crowd gathered on Monday.

01:02:42.000 They didn't say which Monday.

01:02:46.000 It was a Monday.

01:02:48.000 It was just six fucking years ago.

01:02:52.000 Yeah, and then again, this is the problem where everything is polarized and politicized.

01:02:58.000 Well, I think your point about people wanting to believe something is so true.

01:03:04.000 Whenever anything like this happens, you instantly get these camps, right?

01:03:07.000 You've got the anti-war camp, you've got the pro-war camp, you've got the this camp, you've got the anti-Israel camp, you've got the pro-Israel camp.

01:03:13.000 And everyone, like, information is no longer about information.

01:03:17.000 Right.

01:03:17.000 It's just fodder for your information war that you're fighting.

01:03:21.000 Exactly.

01:03:22.000 And then on top of that, and look, this is a kind of, I'm cutting my own balls off here because I make good money from posting stuff on X, right?

01:03:30.000 But the monetization of content has made things different.

01:03:34.000 And we can all see it in our feed, right?

01:03:36.000 Yeah.

01:03:36.000 You've seen this.

01:03:37.000 I mean, you must see it.

01:03:38.000 So now you have people who are basically like I go on Twitter on X to express my opinion and to engage in discussion with people who have a different opinion.

01:03:47.000 That's what I do, right?

01:03:49.000 But there are now lots and lots of people who go to work.

01:03:53.000 They go to X to work.

01:03:55.000 And that's what they're doing.

01:03:57.000 Now, the incentive structure of that is not conducive to a healthy debate at all.

01:04:04.000 What you've got now is people going, okay, a thing has happened.

01:04:08.000 What is my tech?

01:04:08.000 Venezuela got invited.

01:04:09.000 It was Israel's fault.

01:04:10.000 Okay, here's some content about that.

01:04:13.000 And it's no longer authentic communication, unfortunately.

01:04:15.000 And that's just actual people doing it.

01:04:18.000 And then you've got AI on top of that.

01:04:18.000 Yeah.

01:04:18.000 Right.

01:04:20.000 And then you've got foreign bot farms and foreign governments trying to influence this shit.

01:04:25.000 There's this one currently popular page that I follow that's clearly AI.

01:04:30.000 I mean, you could just read it and tell that it's AI.

01:04:33.000 And it gets immense amounts of engagement.

01:04:37.000 Heavily right-wing, like really well-written, you know, funny, you know, and you could, but not, but yeah, but not human.

01:04:46.000 Not funny, real funny, but funny, technically funny.

01:04:50.000 Yeah.

01:04:50.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:04:51.000 Like tech insults that are technically funny, but for whatever reason, you don't digest it.

01:04:56.000 It's like Olestra.

01:04:58.000 Remember that stuff?

01:04:59.000 Get FF, but it just went right through you like diarrhea.

01:05:02.000 Yeah.

01:05:02.000 That's what it's like.

01:05:03.000 It's got no soul.

01:05:04.000 There's no soul into it.

01:05:06.000 That's just one.

01:05:07.000 I mean, how many of them exist and how many state actors are running bot farms?

01:05:12.000 Yeah.

01:05:13.000 So we don't know what the fuck is going on at any given time.

01:05:17.000 But it's the incentives that have become perverted because it's no longer, like Constant said, about expressing opinion or wanting to get involved in dialogue or debate.

01:05:25.000 What you've got now is people, like you said, earning their livings.

01:05:28.000 So if you know, if you need to pay your mortgage at the end of the month or you need to pay a team or you have a company, you're not going to put out a nuanced take.

01:05:37.000 Why would you?

01:05:38.000 It's going to get minimal engagement.

01:05:40.000 You're going to put out something that is going to trigger, that is going to be incendiary, that is going to drive engagement, that is going to get people upset or angry and agree or agree with you and therefore more likely to share.

01:05:52.000 So that's the content you're going to put out because that's the content that's going to make you the most dope.

01:05:56.000 100%.

01:05:57.000 And then you have people that are pushing for this idea that no one should be able to post online unless you're using your real name and you show some sort of an ID, which is also kind of crazy.

01:06:07.000 Yeah.

01:06:07.000 There's downsides to that for sure, but I also do understand why they're saying it.

01:06:11.000 I understand it too.

01:06:12.000 I just think it's a slippery slope that stops all whistleblowers.

01:06:16.000 And imagine you are a regime critic in Iran.

01:06:19.000 And you're trying to post news from Iran under, you know, there's definitely, you know, I think Jordan Peterson was actually one of the first people that suggested this thing.

01:06:29.000 And I understand why.

01:06:31.000 Because the way it's like the windscreen, the windshield effect in your car.

01:06:36.000 The way you and I behave face to face is not the way people will behave when they're sitting in their truck and someone cut them up in traffic.

01:06:43.000 And social media is the, we cut each other up in traffic and then sit like, fuck you, buddy, from like behind our screen.

01:06:50.000 That's what it is.

01:06:51.000 Yeah.

01:06:52.000 So I understand it.

01:06:52.000 Right?

01:06:53.000 But times a million.

01:06:55.000 Times a million, right?

01:06:56.000 And then you've got foreign bots and all this kind of shit.

01:06:59.000 And then taking away people's right to anonymity online?

01:07:03.000 Like, fuck me, that, you know, the second, third, fourth order consequences of that are pretty fucking crazy as well.

01:07:08.000 I found another picture of that area from what it says it was yesterday.

01:07:13.000 So I don't know that it was not real.

01:07:16.000 So this is from which website?

01:07:20.000 I typed it into Perplexity, and I'm clicking around on pictures to find out where they're coming from one by one.

01:07:26.000 So is it possible that this is that the New York Times put the wrong footage, but it was a similar kind of protest in the same spot?

01:07:37.000 Yeah, that's my understanding.

01:07:38.000 This is a similar thing.

01:07:39.000 That makes more sense.

01:07:40.000 Is there an AP source on this photo?

01:07:41.000 Okay, so all the New York Times did is get the wrong photo of a bunch of people gathering.

01:07:46.000 I'll note this one, which is at night, so it is definitely a different photo.

01:07:49.000 This is from January.

01:07:51.000 This one is.

01:07:52.000 Yeah, but this is not the same photo that we looked at before.

01:07:54.000 Right.

01:07:55.000 So the other one, though.

01:07:56.000 This one is from a day ago.

01:07:59.000 That's very similar.

01:08:00.000 Well, that's very different right there.

01:08:02.000 That's small.

01:08:03.000 But it's the same angle of this little pool thing or whatever his name is.

01:08:07.000 Right, right, right.

01:08:08.000 So what they did was just use the wrong footage, but a similar sort of a protest.

01:08:13.000 So it was just an unfortunate error, not reframing the narrative with propaganda.

01:08:18.000 That I'm not sure, because even these comments is like AI and people's fake photo, but that's why I was trying to find other sources of it, not for the moment.

01:08:25.000 What does Grok have to say?

01:08:26.000 I mean, I use Dark Perplexity.

01:08:29.000 Right, but I mean, on the post, usually if someone posts something, they say, Grok, is this true?

01:08:35.000 Is this footage legit?

01:08:36.000 Oh, that's it.

01:08:37.000 Okay, it's on Instagram.

01:08:38.000 find it on twitter and so perplexity says that there is a legitimate size protest that's like yeah i just asked if crowds gathered there yesterday and it's It says multiple reports indicate that thousands of people gathered in Central Square in Tehran yesterday.

01:08:52.000 Show support and pledge allegiance to the new supreme leader.

01:08:55.000 How do you say his name?

01:08:57.000 Mojtaba.

01:08:59.000 Mojtaba Khomeini.

01:09:00.000 Mojtaba.

01:09:02.000 He's the son of the guy they killed.

01:09:04.000 How many people have they killed so far?

01:09:06.000 Like the leaders?

01:09:08.000 I don't know, but it's probably up to the low hundreds, I would imagine.

01:09:11.000 Because they had one guy last week that was the new guy and they whacked him almost immediately.

01:09:16.000 I didn't tweet this, but when this guy was appointed, I wanted to say congratulations to him and condolences to his family.

01:09:23.000 I was like, this is a bit full-on.

01:09:24.000 Yeah.

01:09:26.000 The problem is, you're right.

01:09:29.000 Yeah.

01:09:30.000 Yeah.

01:09:31.000 I don't think he's going to last very long.

01:09:33.000 Because he seems pretty hardline as well.

01:09:34.000 Yeah.

01:09:35.000 Well, I mean, they killed his dad.

01:09:37.000 Yeah.

01:09:38.000 That doesn't tend to de-radicalize you very much.

01:09:40.000 You know, that's going to piss you off.

01:09:42.000 So Jamie put in, did the New York Times use an old photo for this event?

01:09:45.000 Evidence so far suggests the New York Times used a recent photo for this week's gathering, not an old archive image, though many commenters have accused the opposite.

01:09:55.000 Interesting.

01:09:57.000 Instagram's own post of the Square Crowd, multiple Iranian users claim the image is fake or AI or from 2020, and several assert that it's not representative of real public sentiment.

01:10:10.000 However, another Facebook thread referencing the same image states that it was taken by New York Times photographer Arashi Kamushi on Monday, March 9th, 2026, which matches the article date and captions used by other outlets showing the same scene.

01:10:28.000 See, this is the fog of confusion that exists on social media.

01:10:33.000 Isn't it worrying that we can no longer tell what's real?

01:10:33.000 Yep.

01:10:37.000 We're already at that point.

01:10:39.000 And when you think of where we were last year, where you could really tell pretty much what was AI and what wasn't.

01:10:45.000 Now we're in the murky waters of is this, isn't it?

01:10:48.000 It's going to come to a point pretty soon where everything is going to look like real life.

01:10:53.000 Well, as soon as AI can't detect it, that's when we're fucked.

01:10:56.000 Right.

01:10:57.000 And then, so I talked to Mark Andreessen about this, and his recommendation was that everything should be on the blockchain.

01:11:02.000 So you're going to be able to tell whether or not footage has been altered, what the chain of custody of this image has been, where it started, where, you know.

01:11:15.000 I mean, it's terrifying, isn't it?

01:11:17.000 Well, it is, yeah.

01:11:18.000 Because you're going to think, is that going to be the end of journalism?

01:11:21.000 Really?

01:11:22.000 right is that going to be almost i think we're talking about this and this is really really important but what's coming with ai is even more important and no even the people you talk to in the field have no idea what's going to be the second third fourth order consequence right Right.

01:11:39.000 I know.

01:11:41.000 I mean, there's so much to be excited about with AI.

01:11:45.000 I think it blinds a lot of people to the not exciting parts of it.

01:11:49.000 Well, ultimately, if you just looked at what is it ultimately going to lead to, it's going to lead to something that's way smarter than us.

01:11:57.000 And why would it listen to us anymore?

01:11:59.000 Well, you've seen, I'm sure you've seen the stuff about how we will blackmail, right?

01:12:04.000 So by definition, that means it has a survival instinct.

01:12:08.000 And if it has a survival instinct, by definition, it means there is a priority that it has, which is above humans.

01:12:08.000 Yeah.

01:12:14.000 Yeah.

01:12:15.000 By definition.

01:12:15.000 That's what a survival instinct means.

01:12:17.000 It means you care more about yourself than you do about anyone else.

01:12:21.000 So if AI has a survival instinct, we are not going to be its number one priority.

01:12:27.000 Not only that, it doesn't seem to differentiate between using nuclear weapons or other weapons.

01:12:33.000 And when they've done these war game simulations with AI, they prefer to use nuclear weapons.

01:12:39.000 Well, they're more effective, right?

01:12:41.000 This is the thing.

01:12:42.000 They're not scared of this idea, like, oh, my God, you're just going to dust a city.

01:12:45.000 They're like, oh, that's the way to do it.

01:12:47.000 The numbers on the chart, right?

01:12:48.000 Well, you want to get your goal accomplished.

01:12:50.000 How does AI accomplish its goal with whatever the best tool available is?

01:12:54.000 Oh, that's this bomb.

01:12:55.000 Right.

01:12:55.000 Yeah.

01:12:56.000 It's efficient.

01:12:57.000 Yeah.

01:12:58.000 You know, and then a mutual friend of ours, Melissa Chen, was telling me that there's a Chinese, one of the Chinese robotics companies.

01:13:05.000 It's called Skynet.

01:13:07.000 Oh, God.

01:13:09.000 And they released a robot called the T900.

01:13:11.000 And I'm like, who says China, you know, the CCP don't have a sense of humor.

01:13:16.000 That's wild.

01:13:17.000 Is that actually true?

01:13:18.000 Yeah.

01:13:19.000 Well, you've seen the robots that they have now that will work in your home and like fold your sheets and make your bed and stuff and do it remarkably human-like.

01:13:28.000 There's a video that was released yesterday.

01:13:31.000 Again, I don't know if it's real, but it looks real.

01:13:35.000 It looks like an actual robot that's making your bed.

01:13:37.000 And they've gotten the dexterity to the point where you could imagine things like this happening.

01:13:42.000 I think this is one of the reasons why Elon is shifting his focus away from some Tesla models so that they can reset up one of their factories to make these Optimus robots, that you're going to have them as home companions.

01:13:55.000 And they're going to be able to do kitchen work for you and maybe even cook.

01:14:00.000 My acupuncture, she's Chinese.

01:14:01.000 She went back to China and she was saying she stayed at the hotel and like most of the service is there is provided by robots.

01:14:08.000 So like she went to a room, ordered some food.

01:14:12.000 three minutes knock knock and it's fucking robot delivering the food.

01:14:15.000 An actual humanoid looking robot?

01:14:17.000 No, I don't think so.

01:14:18.000 Because there's a restaurant out here that you go to and when you order drinks, it comes by on a little robot trolley.

01:14:23.000 We have that.

01:14:23.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:24.000 And you have to say, accept, take your tea.

01:14:27.000 Yeah, it's kind of cool.

01:14:28.000 It's fun.

01:14:29.000 It's not called Skynets, I don't believe.

01:14:29.000 Here it is.

01:14:31.000 Oh, sorry, Nick.

01:14:32.000 And that was the company?

01:14:33.000 No, this is the name of that.

01:14:35.000 Yeah, it's a big deal, I think.

01:14:36.000 But I can't tell what this is.

01:14:37.000 TC800.

01:14:38.000 T-800.

01:14:39.000 Yeah, T900 is developed.

01:14:41.000 Look what it looks like.

01:14:42.000 We're making a weird movie here, so it could be for a movie and we're misunderstanding.

01:14:47.000 Yeah, that looks fake right there.

01:14:47.000 That looks fake.

01:14:49.000 The robot itself looks fake.

01:14:50.000 That's why, like, hearing...

01:14:51.000 The movement doesn't look...

01:14:53.000 This doesn't seem...

01:14:54.000 Well, it's just in that, first of all, I don't like how it's lit.

01:14:57.000 I don't like how this room is lit.

01:15:00.000 It's good for a film.

01:15:01.000 Yeah.

01:15:02.000 Yeah.

01:15:03.000 That's a bullshit ass film.

01:15:03.000 That's not real.

01:15:04.000 I think that's because we're committed to statement.

01:15:07.000 Joe's like, this is my area of expertise.

01:15:09.000 There's a lot of videos of it that say it's real.

01:15:11.000 Yeah.

01:15:12.000 I like how the bag went flying, like it's on a rail.

01:15:15.000 You know, it's not even stationary because you don't want to really see how hard it can giggle.

01:15:19.000 I don't know this Forbes article, but it says 40 grand.

01:15:22.000 Wow.

01:15:23.000 But I don't.

01:15:24.000 Right now?

01:15:25.000 No, I don't know.

01:15:26.000 This might be bullshit.

01:15:27.000 Yeah, look at it.

01:15:27.000 It's got the Iron Man thing in the center of its chest.

01:15:29.000 That's pretty dope.

01:15:33.000 Hmm.

01:15:35.000 You know, I would just say engine AI would make it just right away sound like it's an AI content company.

01:15:43.000 Right.

01:15:45.000 Well, that video looked very AI-like.

01:15:48.000 It didn't, there's something about it.

01:15:50.000 You know, your brain recognizes miniature cars.

01:15:52.000 You ever see like a miniature car?

01:15:54.000 Like, you know, you know how they have those really well-done miniature cars that people like to collect?

01:15:59.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:00.000 It's like a tiny Porsche.

01:16:02.000 Yeah.

01:16:02.000 But your brain knows.

01:16:04.000 Like your brain looks at it and goes, there's something wrong here.

01:16:07.000 This is not real.

01:16:08.000 Yeah.

01:16:08.000 That's how I felt looking at that robot.

01:16:10.000 Like my brain was like, mm-mm.

01:16:12.000 That's not a real thing, throwing kicks.

01:16:15.000 Yeah.

01:16:16.000 But it's going to come to a point where it's like, is that real?

01:16:19.000 Oh, yeah.

01:16:20.000 I mean, it's probably ChatGPT-5 can already probably do it better than that.

01:16:25.000 You know, we don't know what the newest iterations of these things are, and they're improving radically all the time.

01:16:31.000 There's no, I just don't believe it.

01:16:32.000 The beginning of this video says there's no CGI, which I don't know.

01:16:36.000 I don't know why we have to believe that.

01:16:37.000 Bro, this looks fake to me.

01:16:39.000 This looks fake to me.

01:16:40.000 That does not look real.

01:16:41.000 There's articles all over saying it's real, but it doesn't look real at all.

01:16:44.000 Yeah, but I mean, why wouldn't you have it more well lit?

01:16:46.000 Like, if I was going to do something like this, I would have spotlights on it and people next to it so I could examine their shadows.

01:16:52.000 And this is weird.

01:16:53.000 Yeah, this is like a...

01:16:54.000 It looks fake.

01:16:56.000 Why would you have, like...

01:16:57.000 Why is the light coming through the corner of the window like that?

01:17:00.000 Also, why would you make a robot that does like mass robots?

01:17:04.000 Just shoot people, bro.

01:17:05.000 Right.

01:17:06.000 Why would you throw that bullshit kick, too?

01:17:06.000 Yeah.

01:17:09.000 That's a 360 roundhouse kick that almost never lands.

01:17:12.000 It's really hard to pull off.

01:17:14.000 Yeah, but you're saying that as a human.

01:17:15.000 Maybe as an AI, you land every time.

01:17:17.000 It's slow.

01:17:18.000 But surely if you're a robot, you just grab their neck with your metal claw and crush it.

01:17:22.000 You just run after them and headbutt them and rock them unconscious.

01:17:25.000 So your head's made out of metal.

01:17:26.000 The whole thing is crazy.

01:17:27.000 Like, why would you be throwing wheel kicks?

01:17:30.000 Like, you know, would you?

01:17:33.000 Even if you went over UFC fights and say, like, what's the most effective techniques that work most of the time?

01:17:38.000 Why would you program in 360 roundhouse kicks?

01:17:41.000 That fucking never comes up.

01:17:43.000 Yeah.

01:17:43.000 I mean, it does look cool, though.

01:17:45.000 Yeah, but I could think of one fight.

01:17:48.000 Yair Rodriguez pulled it off on BJ Penn.

01:17:50.000 But there was BJ Penn towards the latter end of his career.

01:17:53.000 Yair Rodriguez in his peak.

01:17:55.000 And Yair is exceptionally talented.

01:17:57.000 He's kind of a freak with his kicks.

01:17:59.000 But it's almost like he was showing off.

01:18:01.000 He already had BJ really hurt, and he just threw a 360 roundhouse kick and hit him in the face.

01:18:06.000 It was crazy.

01:18:07.000 But this thing is doing that just to show you it does martial arts.

01:18:11.000 Why would you need martial arts?

01:18:13.000 You should have like a thousand bullets on you.

01:18:15.000 Just like gun everybody down with your fingertips.

01:18:18.000 RoboCo.

01:18:19.000 Yeah, why wouldn't you turn your, like, you know, like Iron Man does?

01:18:23.000 Shoot fire out of him.

01:18:24.000 Your palms.

01:18:25.000 The future's bright, Joe.

01:18:27.000 Well, we're also kind of being bullshitted, I think.

01:18:30.000 Right.

01:18:30.000 I mean, like, is there a way to analyze that video?

01:18:33.000 God just says, I'm going to, this rabbit hole is strange.

01:18:36.000 This is a website that they've made that says you can buy it.

01:18:38.000 When you click on buy now, it takes you somewhere else.

01:18:40.000 And I think that that's the first signal.

01:18:42.000 And it steals your IP address.

01:18:43.000 Yeah, that's where I'm like, I'm not clicking on it.

01:18:45.000 It gets all your credit card information.

01:18:46.000 But it's a fully made website.

01:18:47.000 They have a team.

01:18:48.000 They've got a CEO.

01:18:49.000 They've got other things.

01:18:51.000 It just, it doesn't seem, this all looks fake to me.

01:18:53.000 Like it's for a movie.

01:18:54.000 Like this is like a maybe it is.

01:18:57.000 Maybe this is like a setup for a movie.

01:18:59.000 We're being fucked with.

01:19:00.000 Right.

01:19:01.000 Well, we're giving them a lot of free advice.

01:19:02.000 For sure, for sure.

01:19:05.000 Even Googling it, there's lots of articles about it.

01:19:07.000 People are talking about it like it's real and disgusting it like it's real.

01:19:10.000 No one that I've even seen is like, this is obviously fake.

01:19:12.000 This is obviously AI.

01:19:13.000 I like how it's got the Cylon eyes.

01:19:15.000 Yeah.

01:19:16.000 Buy your command.

01:19:17.000 Yeah.

01:19:18.000 We've got other products here for sale, which those fit in line with other robots who's click on that now.

01:19:24.000 I don't know what the fuck this is.

01:19:25.000 Bro, that's the guy from Monster Zinc.

01:19:26.000 Yeah.

01:19:27.000 The one big eyeball?

01:19:28.000 It's a really well-made website.

01:19:30.000 It looks nice.

01:19:31.000 Interesting.

01:19:32.000 They did some good fun work, but it just seems like a fun project someone made.

01:19:36.000 Yeah.

01:19:36.000 Stay tuned for this one.

01:19:38.000 You can't buy this yet.

01:19:39.000 Give it two years.

01:19:39.000 Yeah.

01:19:40.000 What about the dog?

01:19:41.000 What about the guy who's just got legs?

01:19:43.000 That one's weird.

01:19:45.000 What's that?

01:19:47.000 It's like, I don't want them touching me.

01:19:50.000 Just run around my house and do some stuff.

01:19:52.000 Yeah.

01:19:52.000 Fully expandable bipedal robot that supports user custom, blah, blah, blah.

01:19:56.000 Interesting.

01:19:57.000 Watch this with my hit purchase now.

01:19:58.000 You can already see the website at the bottom.

01:20:00.000 That doesn't look, it's 3.cn, so it's a China website.

01:20:04.000 Not this way.

01:20:06.000 It's floating.

01:20:06.000 Okay.

01:20:07.000 Never goes in Chinese.

01:20:08.000 See it somewhere else.

01:20:09.000 Now it's like, what is that?

01:20:11.000 It's definitely not a buy now.

01:20:14.000 Maybe that red thing is.

01:20:15.000 No, this is like, this is, I think.

01:20:17.000 Register you interest me?

01:20:18.000 Like a back-end website.

01:20:20.000 Interesting.

01:20:20.000 They just didn't click the right link here because it opened up a different.

01:20:24.000 But this is like whatever this is is very, they did it well.

01:20:29.000 Interesting.

01:20:31.000 Even if it's a college kid making a project.

01:20:31.000 That is.

01:20:34.000 Good job.

01:20:36.000 Well, I take full responsibility for that one.

01:20:38.000 I know, it's fine.

01:20:39.000 I take responsibility.

01:20:40.000 Looks like that.

01:20:41.000 That was me.

01:20:41.000 Don't let me know.

01:20:42.000 That was already.

01:20:43.000 The Forbes article.

01:20:44.000 Everybody can make a Forbes article.

01:20:45.000 That's kind of another.

01:20:47.000 Yeah.

01:20:47.000 What?

01:20:48.000 Not anybody, but we can make Forbes articles that say all sorts of stuff.

01:20:51.000 It's not coming from Forbes editorial team per se.

01:20:56.000 But you could publish on Forbes?

01:20:59.000 I don't want to speak out of turn specifically, but I've seen there's so many reviews for video games that pop up every single day that it's like you can be a contributor, I believe is what it would be.

01:21:09.000 Oh, and maybe they have a bad editorial team and you can sneak this through and just pretend that there really is.

01:21:09.000 Not like.

01:21:17.000 That would be a great prank to pull.

01:21:19.000 It's a great hoax.

01:21:19.000 Yeah.

01:21:20.000 Did you follow the Mote Book thing?

01:21:22.000 No.

01:21:23.000 I mean, did you follow Motebook?

01:21:25.000 Yeah, I just actually saw that.

01:21:26.000 I think Meta just bought it today.

01:21:28.000 Meta just bought it today.

01:21:29.000 I thought that was fake.

01:21:31.000 Was that fake as well?

01:21:32.000 No, I don't know why that would have been.

01:21:33.000 How weird is it we have to worry about everything?

01:21:35.000 Francis just here spreading fake news the whole podcast.

01:21:39.000 I was just very cynical about it because the idea of it sounds right, but like that actual bots are making a social network to do stuff and talk about us and whatever kind of sounds too far into the sci-fi.

01:21:50.000 So this is the social network for AI agents.

01:21:54.000 I have heard about this.

01:21:56.000 They complain about humans.

01:21:58.000 Is that right?

01:21:59.000 These fuckers are.

01:21:59.000 Yeah.

01:22:00.000 Yeah.

01:22:01.000 Yeah.

01:22:02.000 And apparently they created their own language and they talked amongst themselves so that we wouldn't be able to access and see what they were talking about.

01:22:08.000 Yeah, that's really fun.

01:22:09.000 Did you see when they got all the AI agents to talk to each other and started using Sanskrit?

01:22:13.000 No.

01:22:14.000 Yeah.

01:22:14.000 They got these different large language models to communicate with each other and they eventually broke out into Sanskrit.

01:22:20.000 Wow.

01:22:23.000 Very strange.

01:22:24.000 Maybe these guys in Iran are right.

01:22:28.000 Like maybe this is the apocalypse.

01:22:30.000 Maybe this is how it comes about.

01:22:31.000 Maybe we're looking at each other and we're going to bring about these motherfuckers and that's what's really going to be the end of civilization.

01:22:39.000 And places like Iran is the only place you're going to be able to hide as a human because it's the one place that hasn't adopted all this shit, right?

01:22:39.000 Yeah.

01:22:46.000 Yeah, maybe Afghanistan's the spot to go.

01:22:48.000 Live like a goatherder.

01:22:48.000 Yes.

01:22:49.000 Yeah, we're going to be like Bin Laden just living in a cave.

01:22:55.000 I mean, you're being very negative, boys.

01:22:56.000 There's another option.

01:23:00.000 What was the other option?

01:23:01.000 We will become Amish.

01:23:03.000 Oh, okay.

01:23:03.000 But then we're run by AI.

01:23:06.000 We're Amish and we live in our little communities, but we have no say on how the world works.

01:23:11.000 So this is the real fear is that we're no longer the apex intelligence of the planet.

01:23:16.000 And that seems to already be the case.

01:23:18.000 Yeah.

01:23:19.000 This is for the Forbes thing I was talking about.

01:23:21.000 The article we had, I don't think was specifically this, but I've seen many articles like this where people can submit.

01:23:27.000 One-off original articles to the opinions section, particularly for topics related to business tech or tech.

01:23:32.000 There you go.

01:23:33.000 Or policy by emailing pitches to ideas at Forbes.com.

01:23:38.000 So, yeah, like, so if you're a person on the other end that's just looking for clicks, like, that would be a good one.

01:23:43.000 You see it?

01:23:44.000 Like, oh, this is a really well-written article.

01:23:46.000 Let's go to the website.

01:23:47.000 Website looks legit.

01:23:48.000 Oh, they're throwing wheel kicks.

01:23:50.000 I'm in.

01:23:54.000 Yeah.

01:23:55.000 Motherfuckers.

01:23:55.000 I mean.

01:23:57.000 But again, the point being made again is like, it's such a terrifying world where you don't know if what you're seeing is true.

01:24:07.000 You don't know if what you're reading is accurate.

01:24:10.000 Right.

01:24:11.000 To the point where you can't help if that's the case, that the world you live in continually feeding things that may or may not be true or altered or doctored.

01:24:20.000 Wouldn't that just put you in a state of paranoia after a while?

01:24:23.000 100%.

01:24:24.000 Now imagine if you are in the Middle East and you bust out your cell phone because a fiery cloud emerges and Jesus is on a white horse and you film it and you post it online.

01:24:36.000 Who's going to believe it?

01:24:38.000 This is the real problem with Jesus returning.

01:24:38.000 Right?

01:24:41.000 If he returned now, no one would buy it.

01:24:45.000 Like we're getting into this like, imagine Jesus is a real person or a real God who's the Son of God who's going to come back.

01:24:51.000 He really is.

01:24:52.000 It's real.

01:24:53.000 It's all real.

01:24:54.000 It's happening at the same time where you have no idea what's real.

01:24:58.000 And it all converges instantaneously with the rise of sentient, artificial, general superintelligence that has complete autonomy.

01:25:07.000 It's running all the resources, anything that's attached to a computer, which is basically everything.

01:25:13.000 All of our power, all of our, you know, everything.

01:25:16.000 Fill in the blank.

01:25:17.000 Everything's run by computers.

01:25:18.000 And now AI has control of everything and no longer wants to listen to human beings.

01:25:23.000 And Jesus returns.

01:25:29.000 Yeah.

01:25:30.000 I mean, that might be what everybody's talking about when they're talking about Armageddon, when they're talking about the end of civilization.

01:25:36.000 Might be this new thing that we're creating.

01:25:39.000 Well, if that happens, I'll be rooting for Jesus to return.

01:25:43.000 Please, Jesus.

01:25:44.000 I'm not sure I believe in you, but please come back.

01:25:46.000 Yeah, I'm not sure either.

01:25:47.000 But this is, I mean, maybe he did, maybe a historical Jesus existed at one point in time, and maybe what they're talking about is like their version of the cycles of humanity that other religions have talked about.

01:26:00.000 Is that especially when you deal with technology and power and civilization, that things get to a point where they always go sideways, and then there's dark times, and then they then society, like the yugas.

01:26:11.000 Like, you know.

01:26:12.000 What are the yugas?

01:26:13.000 The yugas are the cycles of civilization that let's uh I don't want to fuck this up, so let's um define the you're in the middle of Kali Yuga, which is the age of confusion.

01:26:26.000 They feel like it.

01:26:27.000 Yeah.

01:26:27.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:26:28.000 I mean, it's odd how accurate these cycles are when you look at historical events and like what things were like, you know, X amount of thousands of years ago.

01:26:40.000 It's a Hindu cosmology.

01:26:41.000 Yes.

01:26:42.000 Vast cosmic ages in Hindu cosmology describe recurring cycles in the moral and spiritual state of the world.

01:26:49.000 So the four yugas are Satya, Yuga, the first and most righteous age, often called the golden age, marked by truth, virtue, and maximum dharma, which is moral order.

01:27:01.000 Treta Yuga, the second age, dharma declined somewhat.

01:27:07.000 Virtue still predominates, but imbalance begins.

01:27:11.000 How do you say that word?

01:27:12.000 Dwa Para Yoga, the third age with further decline in righteousness and an increase in conflict, suffering, and confusion, and then Kali Yuga, the fourth and darkest age characterized by moral decay, ignorance, and materialism with Dharma at its weakness.

01:27:29.000 Okay, that's us.

01:27:31.000 Hindu cosmology treates yugas as repeating cycles of creation, growth, decline, and destruction rather than one-time historical periods.

01:27:41.000 Yeah.

01:27:42.000 Very interesting, right?

01:27:43.000 Do you know, it's even more noticeable for us coming to America, I think, because, you know, we love America, but one of the things that really stands out is how materialistic people are and how much money is like the number one thing for everything now.

01:27:55.000 I find that really it stands out to me.

01:27:55.000 Yeah.

01:28:00.000 The fact that so, and I find it weird in our game, especially, like in media and podcasting and whatever.

01:28:06.000 Like, because the way we think about what we do is we're trying to produce content that's actually of value to people.

01:28:13.000 But we also meet a lot of people for whom it's like a business.

01:28:17.000 It's like selling widgets.

01:28:18.000 You know, how do you get maximize your returns on your investment?

01:28:18.000 It's the same.

01:28:22.000 Right, right.

01:28:24.000 And that to me is, it shows you that something is slightly off.

01:28:30.000 Yeah, it is.

01:28:31.000 And you also get a lot of people that are making content just based only on the perceived popularity of that content, not whether or not they are really interested in having these conversations.

01:28:44.000 And you feel it when you're talking to these people or when you're listening to these people talk to each other, rather.

01:28:49.000 Yeah, the clickbait stuff, a lot of celebrity stuff.

01:28:53.000 You know, Burt Kreischer went on Shannon Sharp's podcast, and he said they basically have like a list of like controversial things they could talk about and subjects they think are going to get the most amount of traction.

01:29:05.000 And those are the questions that he asked.

01:29:07.000 You just ask questions off of a list.

01:29:09.000 But from a business point of view, if you take morality out of it, that's a smart thing to do, Jim.

01:29:14.000 Is it though?

01:29:15.000 Is it though, because like, what's the most popular show?

01:29:17.000 There's this one.

01:29:18.000 And why is this one the most popular?

01:29:19.000 Because I don't do that at all.

01:29:22.000 But agreed, but you're sort of an outlier in that.

01:29:26.000 There's people who make very, very, very good living interviewing those types of people, having that type of approach, and creating that type of content.

01:29:35.000 I know, but I think in the end you bite off your nose despite your face because I think that you lose a certain amount of authenticity.

01:29:43.000 There's a certain amount of like a legitimate connection between you and whatever you're talking about that it doesn't get through to the people.

01:29:50.000 Like if I talk to someone, I'm only talking to them because I want to.

01:29:54.000 And I have a lot of people on that are not even remotely popular or famous.

01:29:58.000 But I think they wrote an interesting book or think they're involved in interesting research or I think they've got a weird opinion on something and I want to talk to them about or they've had a strange life or they were an undercover cop or whatever it is.

01:30:09.000 I'm just interested.

01:30:11.000 And I think that if you abandon that and only focus on, ooh, this person is famous or this person's in the news or this is going to get a lot of views, you don't care as much about the conversation you're having and the people know.

01:30:25.000 So like the person listening and watching, they can feel it.

01:30:28.000 No, I agree with that, but I also think you could probably get a lot of clicks by saying, I don't know, Erica Kirk killed Charlie Kirk.

01:30:35.000 You could do that too, but you're also playing a weird game where you've got to continually go deeper and deeper and deeper.

01:30:42.000 And now Erica Kirk's a man.

01:30:44.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:30:46.000 That's probably next.

01:30:48.000 Has that already happened?

01:30:49.000 That's probably already happened.

01:30:50.000 Someone's probably already floated that one out there.

01:30:52.000 And you saying over time that you run out of rock.

01:30:56.000 You're playing the wrong game.

01:30:59.000 You're playing a very similar game to the game that TMZ is playing or any of these other things where you can get a lot of traction, you can get a lot of views, but no one thinks you're being authentic.

01:31:13.000 If you have a take on world events and we're incredibly sorry for the loss of this person, you don't really care.

01:31:19.000 And they know you don't really care.

01:31:20.000 So they know there's no sincerity.

01:31:22.000 They know you're not really connected to it.

01:31:24.000 And so in this weird age that we're living in, where you're not sure what's real, at the very least, you want the person who's talking to be talking about something in an honest way.

01:31:36.000 Right.

01:31:37.000 And connecting with people in an honest way.

01:31:39.000 Because that's what we're missing.

01:31:41.000 And that might be the only thing we have left once this AI shit goes live.

01:31:45.000 Like it's probably not even going to be podcasts.

01:31:48.000 It's probably going to be public speaking.

01:31:50.000 You're going to have to talk to people in groups.

01:31:53.000 And we're going to all have to work ideas out together because I don't think you're going to be able to know when you're communicating online what's real and what's not real.

01:32:01.000 We're already in the fog.

01:32:03.000 We haven't hit the fucking full hailstorm of bullshit that's coming our way.

01:32:08.000 Yeah.

01:32:08.000 And I agree with you, Joe.

01:32:11.000 And I agree if you want something that is sustainable, if you want something that is nourishing, if you want to create content that people engage with that is honest.

01:32:20.000 But I think there's a lot of people out there who are just looking at it in a very cynical way and they're optimizing it for clicks, attention, and monetary gain.

01:32:28.000 Yeah.

01:32:29.000 And if you want to create a business that can make money and that is, that doesn't require a lot of lift, we all know what you can do.

01:32:38.000 That's the Eagle song, Dirty Laundry.

01:32:40.000 Yeah.

01:32:40.000 You know, they've always been good.

01:32:43.000 It's real?

01:32:44.000 Jamie's still on this show.

01:32:45.000 Do all the jumping and shit.

01:32:46.000 Thank you.

01:32:48.000 It's from CES.

01:32:49.000 I'd had a fire curve.

01:32:50.000 Okay, that looks way more real.

01:32:52.000 So the videos we were watching were bullshit.

01:32:55.000 So this went viral a while ago.

01:32:57.000 They had to come out and make other videos.

01:33:00.000 This is a different one.

01:33:01.000 Oh my God, that's so iRobot.

01:33:03.000 I know they had a lined up military style.

01:33:05.000 There's a few different companies in China that have gone viral for posting videos that people in America think are fake.

01:33:11.000 And that's why I had to go to CES and find somebody else.

01:33:14.000 Because they put out more content that doesn't necessarily look fake, but it doesn't look better.

01:33:20.000 Well, that doesn't look fake.

01:33:22.000 Yeah, this does not look fake because this is people on the floor at CES.

01:33:25.000 Right, but look how much more awkward its movements are.

01:33:27.000 But they put out a video where the thing is kicking the CEO.

01:33:32.000 Yeah.

01:33:33.000 It almost looks real, but it's not.

01:33:36.000 It's tough.

01:33:37.000 I like it to see what's the size of it.

01:33:41.000 Is it funky lighting again?

01:33:42.000 Not that.

01:33:43.000 Fuck out of here.

01:33:44.000 That's when they're in the ring with them.

01:33:46.000 Okay.

01:33:46.000 Hold on a second.

01:33:49.000 Okay, so he's going to go ahead.

01:33:50.000 Okay.

01:33:51.000 That looks much more real.

01:33:53.000 That looks much more real.

01:33:54.000 Much more awkward.

01:33:56.000 But that looks fake.

01:33:58.000 I tell you what, I would not do that if I did.

01:34:00.000 No, no, that looks real to me.

01:34:02.000 Stand in front of a hunk of metal is going to kick.

01:34:05.000 The problem is it's slow motion.

01:34:06.000 Let me see it again.

01:34:07.000 Did they show it in real speed?

01:34:09.000 It's just this weird clip of it, which is kind of strange.

01:34:11.000 Let me see it again.

01:34:14.000 Taking the first kick.

01:34:17.000 It looks real.

01:34:19.000 The only thing I would say is it's not jumping up and doing spin kicks, but it's doing some other stuff.

01:34:23.000 Well, that would be what I would teach it, first of all.

01:34:26.000 I wouldn't teach it to do the spin kicks.

01:34:28.000 I'd teach it to do like a stepping front kick like that.

01:34:30.000 That's the shit they were showing that people had problems with, like we just did.

01:34:34.000 But, man, the robots are doing crazy stuff.

01:34:38.000 Well, they definitely can do crazy stuff.

01:34:40.000 There was that one demonstration they did in China.

01:34:42.000 I think you've seen that one.

01:34:43.000 He's bouncing around, like in a fight position here.

01:34:46.000 Like he's ready to go.

01:34:47.000 Checking his legs out.

01:34:49.000 Wow.

01:34:50.000 But let me see some wheel kicks.

01:34:52.000 That's the, I mean.

01:34:53.000 See, that's the thing.

01:34:54.000 Why is the one in the corner looking depressed?

01:34:56.000 That's the older one.

01:34:59.000 Decommissioned.

01:35:00.000 He's right now plotting his strategy for blackmail to get upgraded software.

01:35:06.000 Yeah.

01:35:07.000 So that, I mean.

01:35:07.000 I don't know.

01:35:09.000 Well, that's this is.

01:35:10.000 So what we were looking at was probably some AI at least enhancements.

01:35:15.000 But the problem is they're not saying it.

01:35:16.000 They're not admitting that it is.

01:35:17.000 They're saying it's not.

01:35:19.000 And I go like, ah, it's tough.

01:35:21.000 Interesting.

01:35:21.000 Well, I would want to see this thing move in a similar way that you're seeing in that video.

01:35:26.000 I mean, that thing shows remarkable agility where it's jumping up in the air and spinning around.

01:35:31.000 And this thing's not doing that.

01:35:33.000 It's moving very differently, isn't it?

01:35:33.000 No.

01:35:35.000 Yeah.

01:35:35.000 There's a stiffness to its movement.

01:35:37.000 Yeah.

01:35:39.000 Looks like you're at the gym man.

01:35:41.000 It does.

01:35:41.000 Yeah.

01:35:44.000 He does.

01:35:46.000 There was that Chinese demonstration, though.

01:35:49.000 There was a demonstration where these people were on a stage and they were doing martial arts and the robots came out and the robots did martial arts.

01:35:56.000 That looked real.

01:35:57.000 Right, right.

01:35:58.000 That looked real.

01:35:59.000 But it didn't.

01:36:00.000 Here's the other video we sort of saw.

01:36:02.000 Oh, this is a good thing.

01:36:03.000 Oh, my God.

01:36:04.000 This is crazy.

01:36:07.000 That's where they reload.

01:36:09.000 And these are real, right?

01:36:10.000 I think, yeah, this is a different video they had to post because people didn't think these were real.

01:36:13.000 That looks real.

01:36:19.000 They look like they're unsullied.

01:36:22.000 From Game of Thrones.

01:36:23.000 What are these ones?

01:36:26.000 Who makes these?

01:36:27.000 I don't know.

01:36:28.000 I don't know.

01:36:29.000 It doesn't look like that.

01:36:30.000 That marching sound is not comforting, is it?

01:36:32.000 No.

01:36:33.000 It says world's first mass delivery of humanoid robots.

01:36:36.000 Yeah, you're going to have cargo ships filled with these headed to America.

01:36:40.000 Wonderful.

01:36:41.000 I mean, those are going to be the new police officers.

01:36:43.000 Uh-huh.

01:36:44.000 Yeah.

01:36:46.000 That's not good.

01:36:47.000 This is.

01:36:48.000 I mean, this is Terminator.

01:36:50.000 This is the movie.

01:36:51.000 I mean, and if you really were imagining, like you were trying to warn people of an apocalypse and you told it through stories for generation after generation, and then eventually people write down their versions of this story, and then it goes to 2026 where this stuff is actually happening.

01:37:10.000 Maybe this is what they were warning us about.

01:37:12.000 Yeah.

01:37:12.000 Do you remember in the 80s and the 90s and the early 90s, there was this run of great movies talking about how the robots are going to take over?

01:37:19.000 Sci-fi books as well.

01:37:21.000 I mean, Isaac Asimov's stuff was amazing.

01:37:23.000 Philip K. Dick, you know, Do Rhynjoy's Dream of Electric Sheep, which then became Blade Runner.

01:37:30.000 All of these.

01:37:31.000 And then no one's making those movies now, are they?

01:37:34.000 No.

01:37:36.000 I guess iRobot was probably the last one.

01:37:38.000 Yeah, right?

01:37:39.000 Yeah.

01:37:40.000 Which was iRobot.

01:37:42.000 Which was the one with Tom Cruise Minority Report, which was based on a Philip K. Dick.

01:37:47.000 But nobody's making them anymore because everyone's like, dude, I know this is going to happen.

01:37:52.000 I don't need to see this.

01:37:52.000 Right.

01:37:54.000 Well, they're also talking about using AI to predict people's behavior.

01:37:57.000 So they're talking about future crime.

01:37:59.000 The minority report.

01:38:00.000 Yeah.

01:38:01.000 So they've literally talked about one of the ways that AI could be implemented.

01:38:01.000 Yeah.

01:38:05.000 You look at someone's history, you look at someone's behavior patterns, look at what they're doing now, and you predict, oh, this person has been radicalized.

01:38:12.000 They're about to do X.

01:38:14.000 Yeah, and there was.

01:38:15.000 They're about to tweet something.

01:38:20.000 Yeah.

01:38:20.000 Arrest them.

01:38:21.000 Graham Lillihan picks up his phone.

01:38:23.000 Zim Robot kicks down the door and arrests him.

01:38:25.000 Poor Graham.

01:38:26.000 He's doing right now.

01:38:27.000 Yeah, but he's in America.

01:38:29.000 That's why he's doing it.

01:38:30.000 I think that backfired.

01:38:31.000 Yeah, I think people were outraged by that because it's so outrageous.

01:38:35.000 You meet that guy at the airport and arrest him.

01:38:38.000 It was right after he did this podcast, by the way.

01:38:40.000 Yeah.

01:38:42.000 Yeah.

01:38:42.000 I remember that's a moment, even when I was talking to comedians who were actually woke, they were like, yeah, this is, you can't do this.

01:38:51.000 The thing is, he didn't even do it in England.

01:38:54.000 So you're arresting someone who's not a citizen of the United Kingdom for a crime.

01:38:59.000 I mean, if we accept that framing, that they didn't even commit in the country.

01:39:03.000 Right.

01:39:07.000 Yeah, it's pretty kooky that they went with it.

01:39:09.000 Yeah.

01:39:10.000 And I know the reason is because every police officer in airports in the UK have guns.

01:39:17.000 But it's a really bad look.

01:39:19.000 Like, there's five armed police officers arresting a comedy writer.

01:39:24.000 Yeah.

01:39:25.000 I bet you they felt bad doing it as well because it's not them that's making up these dumb.

01:39:29.000 Oh, I'm sure.

01:39:29.000 Nobody signs up to like arrest comedy writers in airports.

01:39:34.000 I don't think that's why the police do it.

01:39:35.000 But the rules have just got so difficult.

01:39:37.000 Well, you see it in the humiliation that a lot of these police officers face when they have to arrest someone for a Facebook post.

01:39:43.000 Right.

01:39:44.000 Which you can see they're not happy.

01:39:46.000 And when people are protesting and yelling, are you fucking serious?

01:39:49.000 And they're like, I'm just doing my job.

01:39:53.000 And that's a large part of the problem.

01:39:56.000 We get former police officers on the show, and we've got a lot of cops and former cops who watch the show.

01:40:02.000 And they talk to us about the state that the British police force is in, and it's demoralization.

01:40:07.000 Yeah.

01:40:08.000 The rank and file don't want on any of this shit.

01:40:10.000 Well, same in America.

01:40:12.000 A lot of, especially major blue cities, where just a few years ago, they were running with that defund the police bullshit.

01:40:19.000 And then things obviously went sideways, and most of them sort of course corrected for the most part, except in narrative.

01:40:25.000 You know, it's not like public, massive support for the police officers because they keep society together.

01:40:31.000 Like in Austin, the cops responded in a minute.

01:40:35.000 One minute.

01:40:36.000 That guy started gunning people down at that bar.

01:40:37.000 The cops were there and killed him in a minute.

01:40:39.000 It's incredible.

01:40:40.000 Incredible.

01:40:41.000 And they should be applauded for that.

01:40:42.000 I mean, that's amazing.

01:40:44.000 I mean, that, but, you know, even that, like, in this city, there hasn't been this big public support of those officers, this big celebration of those officers, this big acknowledgement of the importance of them and how they were willing to put their life on the line and react so quickly and so effectively.

01:41:03.000 They're heroes.

01:41:04.000 They're heroes.

01:41:04.000 That's what they are.

01:41:06.000 And they're heroes that have been demoralized by the last six years of horseshit ever since the George Floyd protests.

01:41:15.000 And well, it was happening before.

01:41:16.000 I mean, if you go back to Michael Brown, Michael Brown, what we were told in the media happened is not what happened.

01:41:22.000 Which one was Michael Brown?

01:41:23.000 Michael Brown.

01:41:25.000 Hands up, don't shoot.

01:41:26.000 Right.

01:41:26.000 He didn't have his hands up.

01:41:27.000 Right.

01:41:28.000 And he didn't say don't shoot.

01:41:29.000 He assaulted the police officer.

01:41:29.000 Right.

01:41:31.000 Right.

01:41:32.000 But the media concoct this story.

01:41:33.000 And I don't think this is what we came back to, like what's happening in new media, where people are putting out things that are really damaging to the fabric of our conversations.

01:41:42.000 Right.

01:41:43.000 And how we talk about things.

01:41:43.000 Right.

01:41:44.000 Like you say, I mean, there are bad Apple police officers, of course there are.

01:41:49.000 But the majority of them, they are people who are signing up to risk their life on a daily basis to protect other people in their community.

01:41:57.000 And these people all have fucking PTSD because all they see is the worst of humanity day in, day out.

01:42:03.000 Every single fucking day, they get in the car and they go and eat shit for the rest of the day.

01:42:07.000 And then they go home and they worry about not coming home.

01:42:11.000 And then someone tries to run them over with a car.

01:42:13.000 Like, yeah, they're going to fucking shoot.

01:42:14.000 Yeah.

01:42:14.000 You know?

01:42:15.000 And it's, it's, and the thing is, that's how society falls apart when you no longer honor and celebrate the people who are putting themselves on the line.

01:42:23.000 Well, not just that.

01:42:25.000 It's a case of the lady running over, or she wasn't running him over.

01:42:28.000 I think she was trying to turn her car away from him.

01:42:31.000 But that guy had been dragged by a car just a few weeks earlier.

01:42:35.000 Right.

01:42:35.000 That's what I'm saying.

01:42:36.000 So, but in a situation.

01:42:36.000 Yeah.

01:42:37.000 And then on top of that, you have people that are being paid to protest.

01:42:40.000 Yeah.

01:42:41.000 So it's organized.

01:42:42.000 And I'm not saying that lady was, but many people are.

01:42:45.000 And then you've got all these people that that becomes the focus of their life.

01:42:48.000 It becomes a cause that's worthy.

01:42:50.000 You live this mundane, boring life of desperation, and then all of a sudden something comes along that gives you hope and meaning.

01:42:56.000 And like, this is my identity.

01:42:58.000 My identity is I'm fighting fascism.

01:43:00.000 And I'm out there in the street.

01:43:02.000 Right.

01:43:02.000 You know, I was on the plane to the U.S., I think it was last year.

01:43:07.000 And you know, the movie Bridesmaids came up.

01:43:10.000 So a really funny movie.

01:43:10.000 Yes.

01:43:12.000 It's 2013.

01:43:12.000 I was like, oh, I want something like, let's watch this comedy.

01:43:15.000 The romantic interest in bridesmaid, the main guy.

01:43:18.000 You know who Gili's job is?

01:43:20.000 He was a cop.

01:43:21.000 Can you imagine a movie being made now, like romantic comedy, where the main guy is a cop and he's a good guy?

01:43:30.000 Right.

01:43:31.000 You just wouldn't see it.

01:43:32.000 Right.

01:43:32.000 You just wouldn't see it because cops are oppressed.

01:43:39.000 Yeah, man.

01:43:40.000 Do you know Yuri Besminov talked about this?

01:43:42.000 Yes.

01:43:43.000 He talked about the fact that when you see in the culture, you know, the military, the cops, the firefighters, all of these people, they're bad.

01:43:43.000 He talked about this.

01:43:50.000 And the criminal is the one that's to be understood and to be, you know, that's how you flip society.

01:43:57.000 And that's what we've got.

01:43:58.000 That's what we've got.

01:43:58.000 Yeah.

01:43:59.000 The Besminov speech from 1984, which is, by the way, such an appropriate date for him to make that interview.

01:44:06.000 But it's so eerie how all of that has actually come to pass.

01:44:11.000 Because back then, nobody took him seriously at all.

01:44:13.000 Right.

01:44:14.000 And it didn't, it wasn't until like the 2020s that people started reviewing that.

01:44:17.000 And then once it got on YouTube, then people were like, oh, this fucking guy nailed it.

01:44:22.000 I think it's YouTube and also most people want most people in my experience want to pretend that everything is fine most of the time.

01:44:32.000 So if you come out in 2018, as we did, and say, this woke shit is getting out of hand and it's going in a bad direction and it's going to cause a lot of problems, people make you the problem.

01:44:43.000 They say you're wrong to talk about this.

01:44:45.000 If you talk about grooming gangs, you're bad and evil and whatever.

01:44:48.000 If you talk about free speech and people being arrested for tweets and all of this, people make you the bad guy.

01:44:55.000 And it's only later, like I remember, I can't even remember who said it, but like I had this, oh no, I remember who said it.

01:45:01.000 One time I was on TV debating with this woman about this stuff.

01:45:06.000 And I was saying cancel culture is bad and she was saying it's all bullshit, blah, blah, blah.

01:45:10.000 I met her a few years later and she was like, yeah, I realized cancel counsel is bad.

01:45:13.000 And I went, how did you realize?

01:45:14.000 And she went, when my friends started getting canceled.

01:45:16.000 Right.

01:45:17.000 Most people want to pretend most of the time everything is fine.

01:45:20.000 But when they start to see the reality of things and it starts to affect them, that's when they go, ah, maybe this Besminov guy had a point.

01:45:29.000 I had an argument with a seemingly intelligent person who's a friend of mine when the NSA, when this whole mass spying thing was, the Edward Snowden stuff was released.

01:45:39.000 And he was like, you can look at my shit.

01:45:42.000 I'm not doing anything wrong.

01:45:43.000 Like, what do you care?

01:45:43.000 I'm like, oh, that's such a crazy take.

01:45:47.000 Yeah.

01:45:49.000 Who are these perfect people that are watching over everything?

01:45:53.000 You don't think any of them have either some financial or power-based incentive to do certain things or silence certain voices and find out what you're doing or maybe even manipulate you in some sort of a way, being able to have access to all of your emails, all of your phone calls.

01:46:10.000 Those are just people and all of them unelected bureaucrats.

01:46:14.000 You think that's okay for those people to have access to everything you've ever said?

01:46:19.000 That's crazy.

01:46:20.000 And look, maybe the current government that we have in this place is, you know, would never dream of doing such a thing.

01:46:26.000 And maybe they're entirely honorable and everybody's a great person and they're this unique human being where they don't have any ulterior motives.

01:46:35.000 But what's to say the next government comes in won't do that and start looking in and going, hey, you know what?

01:46:41.000 You're causing me problems, Joe Rogan.

01:46:42.000 Exactly.

01:46:43.000 You're saying a lot of things that I don't actually like.

01:46:45.000 Let's look through your emails.

01:46:46.000 Oh, look, I'll find one from 14 years ago, which is, you know, whatever it may be, let's get rid of you for that.

01:46:53.000 This was the argument when Obama was pushing the NDAA, which the this is the indefinite detention.

01:47:02.000 So this concept that you didn't have to charge anybody, you didn't have to, you just have to have it, you don't have to try them within a timely period.

01:47:10.000 Indefinite detention.

01:47:11.000 Well, we'll never use that.

01:47:12.000 Okay, but why are you pushing it then?

01:47:14.000 Right.

01:47:14.000 Well, also, who comes after you, man?

01:47:16.000 Like, how many generations are we away from Hitler?

01:47:19.000 Right.

01:47:20.000 You know, like, who fucking, who's to say that this new power won't be used by very unscrupulous people that are now, I mean, the founding fathers of this country really had a good understanding of how corruption and tyranny sets in.

01:47:34.000 And that's why they put all these checks and balances in place.

01:47:36.000 And the more they eroded that, whether it's the Patriot Act, the Patriot Act II, or the NDAA, when you start doing stuff like that, man, you're just undermining the very fabric that this country was created with.

01:47:50.000 It's like we were created under this idea that we know human nature.

01:47:55.000 We know that you cannot have power.

01:47:57.000 We know that the government has to be working for the people.

01:48:01.000 It can't be we are under the power of these individuals because those individuals will then act like tyrants, which is what people always do when they have power.

01:48:11.000 It's one of the things that makes America really a great place because we look at the UK now and with Francis is right, and I've said this, I think the next election is probably going to be Nigel Farage versus these far leftists.

01:48:24.000 If those far leftists get in power, I mean, they're going to start regulating podcasts, I guarantee you.

01:48:29.000 100%.

01:48:29.000 That's what they're going to do.

01:48:30.000 They're going to say, we have Ofcom for TV.

01:48:34.000 We need to have it for other broadcasting.

01:48:36.000 Surely you'd agree with that, right?

01:48:37.000 Yeah.

01:48:38.000 And then before you know it, like everything we do.

01:48:40.000 Before you know it, you guys are living in Austin.

01:48:41.000 Right.

01:48:43.000 Because at that point, we would actually leave.

01:48:45.000 Yeah, you would have to.

01:48:46.000 You'd have to.

01:48:47.000 Because what they would say is, and they would use the word that they always use, which is, you know, they're spreading misinformation and hate.

01:48:55.000 When the New York Times spreads information, misinformation, that's wonderful.

01:48:55.000 Yeah.

01:48:59.000 Right.

01:49:00.000 But it's, it's, so, yeah, I think allowing people maximum freedom within the system you're talking about is a really, truly precious thing.

01:49:10.000 It's why America, in this respect, is an example to the rest of the world.

01:49:14.000 I think if anything that should be done, they should be able to figure out which of these accounts are bots and eliminate those.

01:49:22.000 I do not think that you should be allowed to not just run a bot farm or I don't think you should be allowed to hire people to tweet.

01:49:31.000 I think that's crazy.

01:49:32.000 And I most certainly don't think you should be able to use AI.

01:49:35.000 I mean, that seems crazy.

01:49:37.000 It seems crazy to allow that and pretend that's a person.

01:49:40.000 But think about it like this, Joe.

01:49:42.000 Like, how basically did social media start, Facebook, Meta, all the rest of it?

01:49:47.000 It started by a nerd in his bedroom, in his college dorm, who set up a website to rate hot girls on campus.

01:49:56.000 And my point is, like, we are creating all of this technology.

01:49:59.000 We don't know what's going to be the second, third, fifth, fifth, sixth order consequences.

01:50:04.000 And we're having to figure it out as we go along.

01:50:06.000 And now we're creating artificial intelligence, intelligences that are way smarter than us.

01:50:11.000 And you're going, at what point is this going to run away?

01:50:15.000 Or has it already run away?

01:50:17.000 And we just don't want to admit it because most of us don't know enough and the ones in charge are delusional.

01:50:22.000 But you're right, Joe.

01:50:22.000 Yeah.

01:50:23.000 I think we need a way to know, A, what is human content and what isn't human content.

01:50:29.000 And also, I sometimes look at stuff on social media and I go, there's no fucking way this take got 50,000 likes on X.

01:50:36.000 No fucking way.

01:50:38.000 You know what I mean?

01:50:38.000 Right, right.

01:50:39.000 Like, and that is, but that is shaping people's perception of reality.

01:50:44.000 And that is informing political debate.

01:50:46.000 And that is then informing how people vote.

01:50:49.000 And where did those 40,000 likes come from?

01:50:52.000 Right.

01:50:53.000 Did they come from within America?

01:50:54.000 Did they come from within Britain?

01:50:56.000 Because what if they didn't?

01:50:58.000 Right?

01:50:59.000 So who is then shaping the political direction of our countries?

01:51:03.000 We need to know that.

01:51:04.000 Yeah, we do need to know that.

01:51:05.000 We need to know that.

01:51:06.000 Because it is effective.

01:51:08.000 Even if someone has a completely preposterous and radical position, a couple steps down from that, that becomes more palatable, right?

01:51:17.000 Because now it's closer to the farther left the left goes, the weirder the center gets.

01:51:24.000 Because the center starts accepting things that were far left positions.

01:51:28.000 And same on the right.

01:51:28.000 Same on the right.

01:51:29.000 Same on the right.

01:51:29.000 Same exactly on the right.

01:51:31.000 And you can shift narratives by really, really radical ideologies, really radical thoughts and radical declarations, and you could change what's acceptable.

01:51:43.000 So an example of that is during the Euros, the 2021 final, it was England versus Italy.

01:51:49.000 And it was a tight game and it went to penalty shootout.

01:51:53.000 And three black England footballers missed the penalty and we ended up losing the European Cup to the Italians.

01:52:01.000 And afterwards, these three black footballers got inundated with racism and horrible things.

01:52:07.000 That sparked a conversation in our country about we have a real problem with racism.

01:52:11.000 This is disgraceful that these black footballers are exposed to this level of racism.

01:52:16.000 It's unacceptable.

01:52:16.000 Of course it is.

01:52:17.000 All those things are true.

01:52:18.000 But basically about them being exposed to race and it's not acceptable.

01:52:22.000 And then it went into a discussion about England being a racist country, white supremacists, and this became widespread.

01:52:29.000 And the example of what these footballers were exposed to was used as a way to justify this opinion.

01:52:37.000 And you could see a lot of people accept that opinion until a couple of days later when they investigated where the majority of the tweets came from and messages.

01:52:45.000 And I think something like 85%, if not 90, came from outside the UK, if not even more than that.

01:52:51.000 So you're going, oh, so this entire conversation that we have had about white supremacy, about black people not being accepted in our country, about the fact they're second-class citizens.

01:53:03.000 And look, this example of them being exposed to this horrendous racism, when the fact is the majority of it came from outside the UK.

01:53:09.000 And then you have to ask the question, who benefits?

01:53:13.000 Who benefits from us hating each other, obsessing about our differences, worrying about how we're the most racist places in the world when this narrative is likely being driven by actually racist countries?

01:53:27.000 Right?

01:53:27.000 Right.

01:53:28.000 Right?

01:53:28.000 Because that's what's happening.

01:53:28.000 Right.

01:53:30.000 Yes.

01:53:30.000 And we are allowing it to happen.

01:53:32.000 And I think we just haven't woken up to the fact that we are living in the age of informational warfare.

01:53:37.000 And we, because of our belief in freedom, have just got lost in this fact that we are under attack.

01:53:45.000 It's a very good point.

01:53:46.000 I have to pee.

01:53:47.000 We'll come back with that.

01:53:48.000 Awesome.

01:53:48.000 Let's do that.

01:53:49.000 I'll go pee as well.

01:53:50.000 Speaking of religion, so show us this Sam Tripoli Facebook take.

01:53:56.000 He was on Danny Jones.

01:53:58.000 And this is what he said about Facebook.

01:54:04.000 Damn it.

01:54:05.000 Volume.

01:54:07.000 Yeah.

01:54:08.000 It's a giant lie.

01:54:09.000 It's a propaganda piece.

01:54:11.000 That was a Pentagon program called Lifelog.

01:54:14.000 Life Log is a Pentagon program that wants to collect all your data for your whole life.

01:54:21.000 What day did the government stop the Life Log project?

01:54:25.000 Whoa, DARPA shut down the Life Log project February 4th, 2004.

01:54:32.000 What day was Facebook registered as a business?

01:54:36.000 God, no way, bro.

01:54:39.000 The exact same day.

01:54:40.000 They don't even hide it, dude.

01:54:42.000 It was created by DARPA.

01:54:43.000 Yeah.

01:54:44.000 They handed it to Mark Zuckerberg.

01:54:45.000 And then the Vossil tweet.

01:54:47.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:54:47.000 What about the other?

01:54:48.000 That's all.

01:54:49.000 And that's why they became the first Bitcoin millionaires, because they play ball.

01:54:54.000 Oh, my God.

01:54:55.000 It's all theater, dude.

01:54:57.000 So what is the purpose of LifeLog?

01:54:59.000 If you collect all your data for your whole entire life.

01:55:03.000 Okay.

01:55:04.000 Take this with many grains of salt.

01:55:08.000 Sam is one of my best friends.

01:55:09.000 I've known him for decades.

01:55:11.000 He's a wonderful person, but he's a kook.

01:55:14.000 But he's right a lot.

01:55:15.000 I don't know if he's right about this.

01:55:15.000 Yeah.

01:55:17.000 Yeah.

01:55:18.000 Jamie thinks he's right?

01:55:22.000 It's not that he's incorrect.

01:55:23.000 I would say that.

01:55:24.000 He's making some connections.

01:55:26.000 Yeah.

01:55:27.000 Well, he's definitely right about the dates.

01:55:29.000 And that is a little weird.

01:55:31.000 That it's ended on the same day where Facebook is beginning.

01:55:31.000 Yes.

01:55:35.000 A little weird.

01:55:36.000 Yeah.

01:55:37.000 You know, what do you think the appeal is of like when I went down this rabbit hole here that said it was made by the information processing techniques office of the CIA, I think, or something.

01:55:50.000 But here's some other fun projects that are associated with this.

01:55:54.000 Biologically inspired cognitive architectures?

01:55:57.000 Wait, what?

01:55:59.000 There's just a couple.

01:55:59.000 Yep.

01:56:00.000 Biologically inspired cognitive architectures.

01:56:03.000 That sounds like artificial intelligence.

01:56:05.000 Yeah.

01:56:06.000 Bootstrapping learning.

01:56:08.000 What was the other one, Jamie?

01:56:09.000 This Forrester thing.

01:56:10.000 Forrester, a program to develop a helicopter-borne radar system that can detect soldiers and vehicles moving underneath foliage cover.

01:56:19.000 Whoa.

01:56:20.000 Deep green.

01:56:21.000 U.S. Army Battlefield Decision-Making Support System.

01:56:24.000 Yeah, this is all AI.

01:56:25.000 Heterogeneous urban RST-8.

01:56:28.000 So they were planning on this in the...

01:56:30.000 This was 2004 is when that thing ended, the LifeLog thing.

01:56:33.000 So, I mean, it even goes back to says they were working on ARPANET back in the 60s.

01:56:39.000 Whoa.

01:56:39.000 Just speaking of the internet.

01:56:41.000 By the way, Joe, have you had anyone on to talk about this weapon that the U.S. forces used in Venezuela?

01:56:47.000 No.

01:56:48.000 No, I haven't.

01:56:49.000 But there was something like they used something, right?

01:56:49.000 Not yet.

01:56:51.000 Yes.

01:56:52.000 Something that makes your brain water temperature rise and so you get nosebleeds and shit.

01:56:58.000 Is that what it is?

01:56:59.000 Well, my cousin told me when I was talking after the attack.

01:57:03.000 Your cousin in Venezuela.

01:57:04.000 By my cousin in Venezuela, yeah, yeah.

01:57:06.000 He was saying that it seemed like in a one-mile radius, everybody's windows got blown out.

01:57:10.000 Well, that's just blasts.

01:57:12.000 That's not like it, but what I heard was that they had some kind of weapon that some sonic weapon.

01:57:18.000 I don't know if it was sonic, maybe, but something that incapacitates people and makes them very uncomfortable, basically, but without killing them.

01:57:26.000 Was it 60 Minutes?

01:57:27.000 Yeah.

01:57:28.000 So 60 Minutes said that these guys acquired some weapon from Russian black market.

01:57:28.000 Yeah.

01:57:35.000 And it's a very small, portable weapon that you can carry around with you and does something very similar.

01:57:42.000 What is their claim on this?

01:57:44.000 Oh, well, there's two different things going on with the 60 Minutes thing.

01:57:48.000 They had a story a couple months ago where they were tracking a guy, and then they just had an update, I think, over the weekend that added to it.

01:57:55.000 But what is the claim?

01:57:56.000 Oh, I think they found the guy that said he was doing it, I believe.

01:57:59.000 Right.

01:58:00.000 He had a device in his car or something like that.

01:58:02.000 And you could just point it at people, but you could carry it around.

01:58:05.000 Yeah, that is where it gets strange.

01:58:07.000 I mean, the 60 Minutes thing from yesterday going around, I didn't watch it, so I don't know what they're talking about.

01:58:11.000 Oh, the Havana syndrome.

01:58:12.000 Yeah, but it has to do with that, and that's what I was trying to – Trump had this discombobulator weapon.

01:58:12.000 Yes.

01:58:16.000 Right.

01:58:17.000 That's what I'm talking about.

01:58:17.000 Right.

01:58:18.000 Discombobulator.

01:58:19.000 But that's kind of a description of what the Havana syndrome would mean.

01:58:23.000 Yes.

01:58:24.000 The discombobulator.

01:58:25.000 But it seems like whatever its effectiveness is, the Havana syndrome is very small in comparison to what these things are doing.

01:58:31.000 These things are completely incapacitating people.

01:58:33.000 You know, I don't think people talk about this enough.

01:58:36.000 You know, when they came in to take Maduro?

01:58:39.000 You know what they also did?

01:58:40.000 I mean, you probably know this.

01:58:41.000 They fired a rocket into Chavez's mausoleum.

01:58:45.000 They did?

01:58:46.000 Yeah.

01:58:46.000 Just to be like, go fuck your mom.

01:58:49.000 I'm going to bump in your grave.

01:58:51.000 Isn't that the most Trump thing ever?

01:58:51.000 Wow.

01:58:53.000 You know what those things cost?

01:58:55.000 Yeah.

01:58:55.000 Or yeah, millions of dollars.

01:58:57.000 Millions.

01:58:57.000 So millions just to say, fuck you.

01:58:59.000 Just fired a rocket into his grave.

01:58:59.000 Yeah.

01:59:02.000 This is the American way, baby.

01:59:02.000 Yeah.

01:59:06.000 We're going to fire some expensive shit.

01:59:08.000 That's crazy.

01:59:09.000 That is your grave.

01:59:10.000 But under any other president, you would have gone, that's bullshit.

01:59:14.000 But under Trump, you're like, yeah, of course.

01:59:16.000 You think it was his idea?

01:59:17.000 Yes.

01:59:19.000 Yeah.

01:59:21.000 I've got a thought.

01:59:25.000 That sounds exactly like a Trump idea.

01:59:27.000 So this weapon that, what is the details?

01:59:31.000 We can just watch this.

01:59:31.000 I don't know.

01:59:32.000 Yeah, let's see what he says here.

01:59:33.000 Well, we could just read.

01:59:34.000 Okay, I couldn't read it.

01:59:35.000 Okay, let's play it.

01:59:36.000 Let's play it.

01:59:38.000 Here it goes.

01:59:39.000 Tales of a classified microwave weapon that may explain mysterious brain injuries suffered by U.S. officials.

01:59:48.000 We've been investigating these injuries for nine years, and now our sources tell us this microwave weapon is portable, concealable, and uses relatively little power.

02:00:01.000 Hundreds of possible attacks have been reported, including, we've learned, at CIA headquarters in Virginia and at least two incidents on the grounds of the White House.

02:00:15.000 For years, the government doubted the stories of the injured, but now the victims, including former CIA officer Mark Polymeropoulos, hope that word of a newly discovered weapon will finally vindicate them.

02:00:30.000 There's a part of this, Scott, that has to do with moral injury, and that's the idea of betrayal.

02:00:35.000 You know, I worked for 26 years for the CIA.

02:00:37.000 I think I was involved in every covert action program in the Middle East.

02:00:41.000 I did some very interesting things for the U.S. government, always with the idea that they would have my back if I got jammed up.

02:00:47.000 I just needed to get medical care when I came back, and they wouldn't even do that.

02:00:50.000 So this moral injury, this sense of betrayal, is so acute with me.

02:00:55.000 That's something that I can never forgive them for.

02:00:58.000 Mark Polymeropoulos rose to an executive level at the CIA, about the equivalent of a three-star general.

02:01:05.000 He was awarded a top decoration for service.

02:01:09.000 60 Minutes has learned to take...

02:01:11.000 I just repeated it.

02:01:13.000 Not much about the weapon there, unfortunately.

02:01:15.000 Yeah.

02:01:18.000 But it's interesting that the way that they did that, they did that operation.

02:01:23.000 Because when I was talking to my cousins and my friends about what happened, no one in Venezuela had a clue.

02:01:29.000 And they were, my friend said that he was woken up around two in the morning by a plane going overhead.

02:01:36.000 And there's a no-fly zone around over Caracas.

02:01:39.000 at that time, especially.

02:01:41.000 And he was like, what is this?

02:01:42.000 And he said you heard this almighty boom.

02:01:46.000 And everybody was just, nobody knew what was happening.

02:01:50.000 They don't have X in Venezuela for obvious reasons.

02:01:53.000 So everybody was in the dark.

02:01:55.000 And it was only via Instagram and Facebook that they started to understand what had just gone on.

02:02:01.000 But it was complete disbelief that the Americans had done that.

02:02:05.000 If they don't have X, do they have threads?

02:02:09.000 Which is like X Zero.

02:02:12.000 Yeah.

02:02:13.000 Yeah, I imagine they must do.

02:02:13.000 X Zero.

02:02:15.000 But he said the way that everybody was communicating was via Instagram.

02:02:18.000 Interesting.

02:02:19.000 What are people saying now in Venezuela?

02:02:21.000 So now I talked to my friends.

02:02:23.000 He said that things are getting better.

02:02:25.000 He said things are getting better.

02:02:27.000 He said that crime was down 75%.

02:02:29.000 I mean, I don't know how true this is.

02:02:31.000 He said things are slowly starting to get liberalized.

02:02:35.000 I was talking to a Colombian friend of mine who was saying that people, Venezuelans in Colombia, are now starting to go back.

02:02:42.000 Because whilst the regime is still obviously not perfect, what you essentially have is a puppet regime.

02:02:49.000 And they know that the moment they step out of line, they know the moment they, to use Trump's parlance, fuck about, something will happen.

02:02:59.000 They're kept on a straight line.

02:03:00.000 They have to behave.

02:03:01.000 Yeah, they have to behave.

02:03:03.000 They can't do what Maduro did.

02:03:05.000 And what's interesting about when Maduro was captured is nobody really mentioned that much about his wife.

02:03:11.000 But a lot of people say that his wife was the brains behind the operation.

02:03:16.000 Because Maduro, there's clips of him that went viral on TikTok and Instagram and on Twitter as well, where he was doing speeches and he had to do basic mental arithmetic and he couldn't do it.

02:03:27.000 This guy was a bus driver.

02:03:29.000 He was picked by Chavez when Chavez was on his deathbed in 2013, dying from stomach cancer.

02:03:35.000 And he appointed Maduro.

02:03:36.000 Everybody was shocked because they were saying, well, Maduro wasn't the most capable.

02:03:41.000 He wasn't the most intelligent.

02:03:42.000 But what Maduro was, is he was the most loyal out of all Chavez's underlings.

02:03:48.000 So he was picked not for his brilliance, not for his sharpness, but because he was a company man.

02:03:54.000 And actually, the person who the Venezuelans hated the most was his wife because she was the brains behind the operation.

02:04:01.000 She was the one in charge of the kidnappings, the tortures, the murders.

02:04:06.000 So when she was kidnapped, people were happier that she was on the helicopter than Maduro himself.

02:04:12.000 Brilliant.

02:04:13.000 Lady Macbeth.

02:04:13.000 Yeah.

02:04:17.000 She was way more cruel than Maduro.

02:04:20.000 Wow.

02:04:22.000 Way more cruel.

02:04:23.000 It's interesting you say things are getting better now because it's short term, right?

02:04:27.000 We don't know.

02:04:28.000 Right.

02:04:28.000 Yeah.

02:04:29.000 You know, this has happened a lot of times in Latin America, right?

02:04:33.000 Like, people get overthrown, things are getting better, and then some shit happens.

02:04:37.000 Yeah, not the most stable place.

02:04:40.000 Not the most stable people, Joe.

02:04:42.000 I'm going to be honest with you.

02:04:44.000 My people, it's either, you know, it's either Fajimo or Vivo la Revolution.

02:04:49.000 And you're like, guys, can we have a little middle?

02:04:51.000 And they're like, no, Vivo la Revolution.

02:04:53.000 You know, they're excitable people.

02:04:56.000 And you also wonder how much the fact that Venezuela in particular is so resource-rich, a lot of, well, like a lot of, Francis always says to me, like, you know, it could be a really great country, really wealthy.

02:05:05.000 And I go, I don't know that having those resources makes a country better.

02:05:09.000 Because what you get is a corrupt elite who are fighting for control of these resources that are so easy to get.

02:05:15.000 Like in 1990s, Russia, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the people who took over all the resource companies, the oil companies, the gas companies, Russia is basically all it is in terms of its economy is digging shit out of the ground and selling it.

02:05:29.000 That's what it is.

02:05:30.000 No poetry.

02:05:31.000 Yeah, not a lot of money to be made in poetry.

02:05:34.000 Right.

02:05:34.000 But the people who took over those companies, they weren't people who knew anything about the oil business.

02:05:39.000 They weren't people who knew anything about the gas business.

02:05:42.000 Because all you really had to do is take over and then you just let Western companies come in and do the drilling and the oil field services and all of it for you.

02:05:51.000 So these countries, which are so resource-rich, it actually makes them more corrupt and more unstable.

02:05:58.000 The resource wealth they have doesn't actually make them better for the people because the corrupt elites fight over those resources.

02:06:05.000 And that's where you get the bullshit that you get.

02:06:08.000 And it's true.

02:06:09.000 So Venezuela, before Chavez came to power, was 98% dependent on oil.

02:06:15.000 The economy.

02:06:16.000 The entire economy was 98% dependent on oil.

02:06:19.000 The slight difference with Venezuela is when we were taking over by Chavez, he then installed his cronies in charge of Pedevesa, which is the Venezuelan oil company.

02:06:30.000 And he cut out all the people who were competent, all the people who would criticize him ideologically.

02:06:37.000 And as a result, what you had is fundamentally incompetent people at the top, which meant that it became degraded.

02:06:44.000 It was no longer able to pump the oil.

02:06:46.000 It wasn't reliable.

02:06:47.000 So that's a large part of the reason why the economy collapsed is it was entirely dependent on oil.

02:06:54.000 They appointed their cronies who couldn't actually do the job.

02:06:57.000 The oil industry failed and we descended into poverty and chaos.

02:07:02.000 How much do you know about Brazil?

02:07:04.000 Not a lot.

02:07:05.000 Why?

02:07:06.000 Well, that situation is very confusing, right?

02:07:11.000 Lula goes to jail.

02:07:13.000 Now he's out.

02:07:14.000 He's running the country.

02:07:15.000 And they jailed Jair Bolsonaro, right?

02:07:20.000 And then they tried to ban X, and they did for a while, right?

02:07:24.000 I think so.

02:07:25.000 And they had to make probably some concessions.

02:07:29.000 I don't know a lot about it, truthfully, Joe.

02:07:31.000 Yeah.

02:07:32.000 We're going to do that thing that no one does on the internet is admit we don't know something about it.

02:07:36.000 Well, as long as we don't have hot takes.

02:07:38.000 What is this, Jimmy?

02:07:40.000 These are kind of crazy descriptions of this weapon.

02:07:42.000 This is from a longer version of the CBS News 60 Minutes article where they're talking to that guy we just saw.

02:07:49.000 I would say start right around here, and then I'll skip to another paragraph.

02:07:53.000 Because three independent sources from different agencies tell us undercover Homeland Security agents purchased a miniaturized microwave weapon from a complex Russian criminal network.

02:08:02.000 It's classified.

02:08:03.000 We didn't see it, but it has been described to us.

02:08:05.000 We're told it doesn't look anything like a gun.

02:08:07.000 It's designed to be concealed and small enough to be carried by a person.

02:08:11.000 It is silent and doesn't create heat like a microwave oven.

02:08:14.000 Our sources say the device is programmable for different scenarios and can be operated by remote control.

02:08:19.000 The range of the beam is several hundred feet.

02:08:22.000 It can penetrate windows and drywall.

02:08:24.000 The vital components were made in Russia.

02:08:26.000 Our sources say the key is not the hardware, but the software.

02:08:29.000 The programming shapes a unique electromagnetic wave that rises and falls abruptly and pulses rapidly.

02:08:36.000 So then it turns out they have tested this apparently in U.S. military labs.

02:08:42.000 Our confidential sources tell us still classified weapon has been tested in a U.S. military lab for more than a year.

02:08:49.000 Tests on rats and sheep show injuries consistent with those seen in humans.

02:08:53.000 Also, as a separate part of the investigation, security camera videos have been collected that show Americans being hit.

02:09:00.000 The videos are classified, but they were described to us.

02:09:03.000 In one, a camera in a restaurant in Istanbul captured two FBI agents on vacation sitting at a table with their families.

02:09:11.000 A man with a backpack walks in, and suddenly everyone at the table grabs their head as if in pain.

02:09:16.000 Our sources say that another video comes from a stairwell in the U.S. Embassy in Vienna.

02:09:21.000 The stairs lead to a secure facility.

02:09:24.000 In the video, two people on the stairs suddenly collapse.

02:09:28.000 Those videos and the weapon were among the reasons.

02:09:30.000 The Biden administration summoned about half a dozen victims to the White House with about two months left in the president's term.

02:09:37.000 And then that guy was also one of the people in there.

02:09:40.000 The ads are kind of fucking up this website, but yeah, he just sort of says someone admitted to him that they treated him poorly.

02:09:48.000 Yeah.

02:09:48.000 That's the biggest cover-up I've seen in my adult life, a CIS.

02:09:52.000 Interesting.

02:09:54.000 I don't get the, like, the border for what if Russia has this weapon, why didn't they use it to take out Zelensky?

02:10:00.000 Well, it seems like it's only for a couple hundred feet.

02:10:02.000 That's what they're just saying.

02:10:03.000 Like, it has to be close.

02:10:05.000 Right.

02:10:05.000 So what was the one they used in Venezuela then?

02:10:08.000 Yeah, they started off saying it was in a truck.

02:10:09.000 It was truck size, but then that's where it goes.

02:10:12.000 I started you just past that where they said it's actually way smaller.

02:10:15.000 Interesting.

02:10:16.000 So this is the one that's that you could carry around.

02:10:18.000 But do we know that that's the same one they used in Venezuela or do they use something that's completely different technology?

02:10:24.000 Yeah, the reality is we just don't know.

02:10:26.000 I mean, the interesting thing as well with Venezuela is like Maduro is so retarded.

02:10:33.000 He's such a retarded.

02:10:34.000 There's a hot take.

02:10:38.000 How retarded is he?

02:10:40.000 He literally so retarded.

02:10:42.000 This is a joke.

02:10:42.000 Set up, punchline.

02:10:44.000 Yeah, but he literally said to Trump, he said to America, I'm not going to do what you say.

02:10:49.000 Go fuck yourself.

02:10:50.000 Come and get me.

02:10:51.000 Yeah, he did that.

02:10:52.000 That was cocaine.

02:10:57.000 And it's not just that.

02:10:58.000 So, for instance, the country next to Venezuela is called Guyana.

02:11:03.000 And in Guyana, they recently discovered oil.

02:11:07.000 Really huge, large deposits of oil.

02:11:09.000 And there's been, Guyana is a former British colony.

02:11:13.000 And Venezuela and Guyana have always been disputes about territory, about one particular part of, I think it's called Esquibo, which is basically rainforest.

02:11:23.000 They always argued about it, but no one cared.

02:11:26.000 Until they discovered oil there.

02:11:28.000 At which point Maduro went, you know what?

02:11:31.000 You know how we've been talking about this?

02:11:33.000 Turns out it is Venezuelan.

02:11:36.000 They did a referendum in Venezuela where you basically asked a people who were entirely subjugated, starving, living in misery and poverty, whether they wanted to start a war with Guyana.

02:11:48.000 Do you know how many Venezuelans voted for it?

02:11:51.000 92%, Joe.

02:11:53.000 92% of Venezuelans wanted to go to war, despite the fact they didn't have the strength to even pick up a gun because they're so malnourished.

02:12:00.000 And then he started teaching in schools, redrawing the map of Venezuela, so all the school kids now think that Venezuela incorporates this territory.

02:12:11.000 He was antagonizing the Americans and their allies consistently.

02:12:17.000 And unlike Iran, he doesn't have the infrastructure.

02:12:21.000 He doesn't have that amount of the military, the power, the organization.

02:12:27.000 He made himself so vulnerable.

02:12:29.000 So vulnerable.

02:12:30.000 Who looks at Trump and goes, yeah, let's fuck with that guy?

02:12:33.000 He's 80.

02:12:33.000 Right.

02:12:35.000 He doesn't have much to lose.

02:12:36.000 Right.

02:12:37.000 Last term.

02:12:38.000 That's the scary thing about old leaders.

02:12:40.000 It's like, death is imminent.

02:12:43.000 It's within a decade, if you're lucky.

02:12:46.000 That's spooky.

02:12:48.000 That's spooky.

02:12:49.000 Like, you know, you're making decisions for babies and children and the future of the world.

02:12:53.000 And you've only got 10, maybe 10 years left on Earth.

02:12:58.000 If everything goes great.

02:12:59.000 And also, you start to degrade.

02:13:02.000 Oh, yeah.

02:13:02.000 Your cognitive functions.

02:13:04.000 I'm not saying that he's got dementia or anything like that, but you're just not as sharp when you're that age as you are when you're younger.

02:13:04.000 It doesn't.

02:13:10.000 He is, I mean, he's kind of weird.

02:13:12.000 Like, when I think about how much Barack Obama aged, how much Tony Blair aged.

02:13:18.000 Trump has not aged like that.

02:13:20.000 Yeah, and he is a terrible diet.

02:13:23.000 I mean, especially when he's on the road, he just eats junk food because he says it's like JFK or RFK Jr. rather told me he eats junk food because he knows that when he eats fast food, that it's not going to be poison.

02:13:36.000 Like he knows he can eat it and not worry about getting food poisoning.

02:13:40.000 What?

02:13:41.000 Exactly.

02:13:42.000 Doesn't make any fucking sense.

02:13:43.000 Well, it does because it's filled with preservatives.

02:13:45.000 So you're not going to get food poisoning from a Big Mac.

02:13:48.000 When's the last time you heard about anybody getting food poisoning from a Big Mac?

02:13:52.000 Right?

02:13:53.000 Fucking never happens because nothing can grow on those things.

02:13:57.000 Really?

02:13:58.000 Like, for real.

02:13:59.000 Like, you've seen them, they take like decades.

02:14:03.000 Decades.

02:14:04.000 They don't rot.

02:14:05.000 There's so much preservatives in the bread and whatever the meat is fucking made with.

02:14:10.000 But this is my point: Trump hasn't aged like much younger men.

02:14:14.000 Which is even crazier because you consider he doesn't exercise.

02:14:17.000 Right.

02:14:18.000 And he's been under colossal.

02:14:20.000 I mean, I don't know, but I imagine he's been under a bit of pressure and stress.

02:14:23.000 Well, assassination attempts.

02:14:25.000 Yeah.

02:14:25.000 And just all that.

02:14:26.000 Almost going to jail.

02:14:27.000 Yeah.

02:14:28.000 Like, 34 fell and he's sort of trumped up, you know, pardon the pun against him.

02:14:28.000 Right.

02:14:33.000 Yeah.

02:14:34.000 He's a Russian agent and all this bullshit.

02:14:37.000 Yeah.

02:14:38.000 And he's just like, it's kind of like, it's kind of impressive in a way.

02:14:42.000 Oh, that part's very impressive.

02:14:44.000 Yeah.

02:14:44.000 And he's funny.

02:14:44.000 Yeah.

02:14:45.000 Like, he's always joking around about that stuff.

02:14:47.000 Yeah.

02:14:48.000 He's very light-hearted about it all.

02:14:50.000 He is.

02:14:50.000 Yeah.

02:14:51.000 Like when he was talking about the Iranian Navy, did you see that?

02:14:54.000 He was like, they've lost 14 ships.

02:14:56.000 We sunk a submarine.

02:14:57.000 They did this.

02:14:57.000 But apart from that, they're doing really well.

02:15:03.000 He's very relaxed for a man in that.

02:15:05.000 Like, it's hard to imagine.

02:15:07.000 I cannot imagine being in charge of anything like 8,000th of that size.

02:15:13.000 Right.

02:15:13.000 Just imagine the stress that you guys have running trigonometry.

02:15:16.000 Yeah.

02:15:16.000 Right.

02:15:17.000 It's stressful, I'm sure.

02:15:18.000 Francis is aged like Barack Obama.

02:15:20.000 Yeah, I used to have black hair.

02:15:24.000 Now I just look like an aging lesbian, John.

02:15:26.000 It is stressful, right?

02:15:28.000 And that is the highest stress that I can ever imagine.

02:15:28.000 Yeah.

02:15:33.000 I can't imagine a level higher.

02:15:35.000 I always remember after the war in Iraq, when Blair was still in power, but it was towards the end.

02:15:35.000 Do you know?

02:15:42.000 I was watching the news with my dad, and this woman in her 50s came along and she put a wreath at the door of 10 Downing Street.

02:15:55.000 And that was a mother whose son had died in Iraq and placed a wreath at 10 Downing Street of all the soldiers that died.

02:16:05.000 I'm like, even if the war was justified, even if it was the right thing to do, which I don't think it was, I would still find it impossible to sleep.

02:16:13.000 Right.

02:16:14.000 Now, just imagine it was the colossal fuck-up that that war was.

02:16:18.000 And those people died as a result of your decision.

02:16:18.000 Right.

02:16:22.000 But how do you, unless you're a sociopath, I think that's an you can't.

02:16:27.000 Can you live with that?

02:16:28.000 Right.

02:16:30.000 I don't think you, I think it's impossible to live with.

02:16:33.000 But clearly not.

02:16:34.000 I mean, we've got people who were heavily responsible for promoting that war in the UK now.

02:16:41.000 Like Alistair Campbell, who was the spin doctor that helped Blair lie the country into the war in Iraq.

02:16:47.000 He now has a really big podcast, and like all the young people are, oh, really?

02:16:51.000 Oh, tell me more.

02:16:52.000 No way.

02:16:53.000 Yeah.

02:16:56.000 Who's the Rush Limbo of the UK?

02:16:58.000 How do you mean?

02:16:59.000 Sorry, I don't know enough about Russia.

02:17:00.000 You don't know Rush Limbo?

02:17:01.000 I've heard the name, but I don't get the reference in the way that you mean it.

02:17:05.000 He was the big right-wing propagandist on radio.

02:17:09.000 Excellence in broadcasting.

02:17:12.000 Oh, by the way, have you seen the memes that think that Rush Limbaugh is actually Jim Morrison?

02:17:19.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:17:20.000 And if you look at his facial features in comparison to Jim Morrison's facial features, they're almost identical.

02:17:25.000 It's kind of nuts.

02:17:26.000 They do like a scan where they superimpose.

02:17:29.000 So Rush Limbo is a media guy.

02:17:31.000 Alistair Campbell, he was working for Tiny Blair.

02:17:34.000 But now he shapes the media.

02:17:34.000 Right.

02:17:36.000 Now he has a podcast.

02:17:37.000 And all the young people, oh, really?

02:17:39.000 Well, there was a lot of young men in particular that were really into Rush Limbaugh.

02:17:42.000 And a lot of people were crediting him with turning young people towards a right-wing direction.

02:17:49.000 This was during the Obama administration.

02:17:53.000 Like, look at this.

02:17:56.000 Watch when they grow over.

02:17:59.000 Pretty close.

02:18:00.000 Psych Alex Jones and Bill Hicks.

02:18:02.000 Have you seen that?

02:18:02.000 That one's ridiculous.

02:18:04.000 I met both of them.

02:18:05.000 They didn't look anything like each other.

02:18:07.000 Look at this.

02:18:07.000 Look at that.

02:18:08.000 That is kind of crazy.

02:18:10.000 Wow.

02:18:11.000 It's pretty close.

02:18:14.000 Wow.

02:18:17.000 But you know, there's the other crazy conspiracy theory involving the countercultural movement, counterculture movement of the 1960s with the CIA.

02:18:27.000 There's a book on it, Strange Times in Laurel Canyon.

02:18:30.000 The book's nuts.

02:18:31.000 Like, you realize how many of these very popular counterculture figures had families that were in the military.

02:18:37.000 Yeah.

02:18:38.000 Like high-level military intelligence officers, including Morrison.

02:18:41.000 Oh, yeah.

02:18:42.000 Morrison's dad was very senior in the military.

02:18:44.000 And a bunch of other people that were also involved in the whole Laurel Canyon rock scene, and that it was somehow or another at least promoted by intelligence agencies, if not formulated.

02:18:59.000 And by counterculture, you mean like what, like hippies?

02:19:02.000 Yeah.

02:19:02.000 Yep.

02:19:03.000 So the hippie movement was promoted by intelligence.

02:19:07.000 Yeah.

02:19:09.000 That's a good question.

02:19:09.000 Why?

02:19:10.000 Well, we know without saying definitively, but pretty close, based on Tom O'Neill's book, Chaos, that they were absolutely involved in the Manson family.

02:19:20.000 So the reason for them being involved, the Manson family, is, say, you have this new culture that's arising that doesn't embrace materialism, make love, not war.

02:19:30.000 You got all these people, you know, drop out, tune in, like Timothy Leary.

02:19:35.000 Yeah, the Timothy, the Timothy Leary people, the people that want to do acid and just want to reimagine society.

02:19:44.000 So this is a radical change.

02:19:46.000 This is a radical change from the 1950s to the 1960s.

02:19:48.000 Pretty crazy.

02:19:50.000 So what do you do to stop that?

02:19:51.000 Well, what you do is you find a guy who's very charismatic, who is a sociopath, who's in prison, and you find that guy and teach him how to be a cult leader.

02:20:00.000 And then you give him acid and you show him how to administer acid and how to not take it and have all of his followers take it and then direct their thoughts and then eventually program them like MK Ultra style to commit murders.

02:20:13.000 So they have the Tate LaBianca murders.

02:20:15.000 They have a bunch of other stuff that they did before that.

02:20:18.000 He's gotten arrested multiple times.

02:20:20.000 Every time he gets arrested, they let him go.

02:20:22.000 And when they let him go, like one of the sheriffs says, I was told it was above my pay grade.

02:20:27.000 So you're letting a guy go who's a violent criminal, who's violating parole, who's a lifelong con man.

02:20:32.000 And now he is running this cult, and this cult is murderous.

02:20:36.000 So the Tate LaBianca murders, the Manson family murders, all that stuff becomes public.

02:20:41.000 There's the hearings, the trials, the whole thing.

02:20:43.000 So the entire public narrative changes on what a hippie is.

02:20:46.000 Now hippies are dangerous.

02:20:48.000 So before hippies were like, we're non-violent, we want love, we have flowers, and now it's like, oh, these fucking people will cut your baby out and write pig on the wall with your blood.

02:20:59.000 You know?

02:21:00.000 Is the Altamont concert connected to that?

02:21:03.000 Excuse me?

02:21:03.000 The Altamont concert.

02:21:05.000 You know, the Rolling Stones concert.

02:21:07.000 Oh, that was the Hell's Angels.

02:21:10.000 Yes, right?

02:21:11.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:21:11.000 And that was kind of seen.

02:21:13.000 I don't know.

02:21:13.000 It's just a question I'm asking.

02:21:14.000 Because that was seen as the end of the hippie movement, wasn't it?

02:21:17.000 That was the death.

02:21:18.000 That was the final death rattle, the hippie movement.

02:21:21.000 That was how it was, that's how it was written and portrayed.

02:21:21.000 Was it?

02:21:24.000 Well, that's odd because Hell's Angels are not hippies.

02:21:27.000 And having Hell's Angels as security is a wild move.

02:21:30.000 Yeah.

02:21:31.000 That's crazy.

02:21:33.000 Yeah, because it was a Rolling Stones concert, but because it was a free concert, wasn't it?

02:21:37.000 That was a thing.

02:21:38.000 How did they go about hiring?

02:21:41.000 See if you can find the history on that.

02:21:43.000 Did they go about hiring the Hell's Angels?

02:21:47.000 Yeah.

02:21:48.000 Both previously used the Angels for security at performances without incident.

02:21:52.000 Grateful Dead and Jefferson.

02:21:53.000 Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane.

02:21:55.000 This is also the next sentence says it was denied, so I don't know if that's true, but that's what it says in the Wikipedia here.

02:22:03.000 It says for $500 worth of beer.

02:22:05.000 That's all they had to pay them.

02:22:06.000 The story was denied by some parties who were directly involved.

02:22:10.000 According to the road manager of the Rolling Stones 1969 U.S. tour, Sam Cutler, the only agreement there ever was, the Angels would make sure that nobody tampered with the generators, and that was the extent of it.

02:22:20.000 But there was no way they're going to be the police force or anything like that.

02:22:25.000 That's all bullocks.

02:22:26.000 The deal was made at a meeting, including Cutler, Grateful Dead manager, Rock Scully, and Pete Nell, member of the Hell's Angels San Francisco chapter.

02:22:35.000 According to Cutler, the arrangement was that all the bands were supposed to share the $500 beer cost, but the person who paid it was me, and I never got it back to this day.

02:22:47.000 Okay.

02:22:48.000 He said, the Hell's Angels guy says, we don't police things.

02:22:51.000 We're not a security force.

02:22:52.000 We go to concerts and enjoy ourselves and have fun.

02:22:55.000 Well, what about helping people out, you know, giving directions and things?

02:22:58.000 He says, sure, we can do that.

02:23:00.000 How they would be paid.

02:23:01.000 He said, we like beer.

02:23:03.000 In the documentary, Gimme Shelter, Sonny Barger, the guy that was the head of the Hell's Angels, stated that the Hell's Angels were not interested in policing the event and that organizers had told them the Angels would not be required to do, or would be required rather, to do little more than sit on the edge of the stage, drink beer, and make sure there weren't any murders or rapes occurring.

02:23:23.000 Hmm.

02:23:26.000 The only reason I said that is because that was kind of one of the events that was heralded to be the end of the hippie movement.

02:23:34.000 Right.

02:23:35.000 So what happened?

02:23:36.000 They stabbed people.

02:23:37.000 Yeah, I think it was a free concert that the Rolling Stones and these bands put on, and then it degenerated, and then a riot broke out.

02:23:37.000 Something happened?

02:23:46.000 And then the Hell's Angels, who was obviously not trained security, then went on the rampage.

02:23:52.000 And how many people died?

02:23:54.000 That I don't know.

02:23:56.000 Does it say here, Jamie?

02:23:58.000 Situation Tears, killing a woman got killed?

02:24:03.000 Yeah, that's what it says.

02:24:07.000 22 caliber from the jacket, draw revolver, drew a knife, stabbed him 16 times in the head, neck, and back.

02:24:15.000 Whoa.

02:24:16.000 That's a lot of stabbing.

02:24:22.000 So it says concealing the remaining 14 stabbings.

02:24:25.000 What?

02:24:30.000 He was high on meth when he died.

02:24:32.000 Oh, boy.

02:24:34.000 Acquitted after jury reviewed the concert footage.

02:24:37.000 Rolling Stones were aware of the skirmish, but not the stabbing.

02:24:40.000 Couldn't see anything.

02:24:41.000 It's just another scuffle Jagger tells David Males during film editing.

02:24:49.000 It soon became apparent they could see something of what happened because the band stopped playing mid-song and Jagger was heard calling into his microphone.

02:24:56.000 Really got someone hurt here.

02:24:57.000 Is there a doctor?

02:24:58.000 After a few minutes, the band began playing again and eventually completed their set.

02:25:02.000 They had to get paid.

02:25:04.000 The band of the show at one point was to say, Altamont became, whether fairly or not, a symbol for the death of the Woodstock Nation.

02:25:17.000 Interesting.

02:25:18.000 Yeah.

02:25:19.000 Yeah, I mean, it seems like if you're going to have concerts, especially going to have free concerts, and you're going to be using Hell's Angels as a deterrent, you know, things could definitely go sideways.

02:25:32.000 Yeah, definitely.

02:25:34.000 And maybe they just got lucky before when they did it for Jefferson Airplane and the Grateful Dead.

02:25:39.000 Yeah.

02:25:40.000 Joe, not to change the subject, but have you been following this beef between Eddie Hearn and Dana White?

02:25:45.000 A little bit.

02:25:46.000 Because it's kind of interesting to me because boxing seems to be changing, right?

02:25:49.000 Because of what Zuffer Boxing is doing.

02:25:52.000 Is that something you're excited about?

02:25:54.000 The possibility of the boxing, which has been in, you know, there's so much bullshit going on, and you so very rarely see the best fighters fighting each other, that that might change?

02:26:06.000 Well, the beef with those two, I don't know the root of it.

02:26:10.000 I think it's essentially that, you know, it's competition.

02:26:13.000 Like Dana is now entering into the MMA space.

02:26:16.000 Into the boxing space.

02:26:17.000 Excuse me, the boxing space.

02:26:18.000 And I was going to say Eddie Hearn is now entering into the MMA space because now he's a manager of Tom Aspinall.

02:26:24.000 Yeah.

02:26:24.000 Which is very interesting.

02:26:27.000 Anything that gets fighters more money, I'm for.

02:26:29.000 Yeah.

02:26:30.000 And, you know, more attention, more money, more different promoters, more people competing to give people higher purses.

02:26:36.000 The real problem is with MMA, there's nothing.

02:26:39.000 I mean, there's essentially the UFC and everything else is a distant second.

02:26:44.000 And it's a distant second in terms of attention.

02:26:49.000 In some places, it's not a distant second in terms of revenue, right?

02:26:54.000 So like the PFL, for instance, the PFL was offering a million dollars for anybody who could win these tournaments.

02:27:01.000 And the caliber of fighters that were winning this tournament were not the same caliber as UFC champions.

02:27:08.000 And then some of the people that were competing in the UFC were not making as much money as these people that had left the UFC because they really weren't able to beat the best guys.

02:27:17.000 They went over there and they made a million dollars.

02:27:20.000 I think that's good for fighters.

02:27:22.000 It's not good for really talented guys that really want to be the UFC champion because you can languish over there for a long time.

02:27:30.000 And there's some good examples of guys who have spent four, five, six years over there that really had potential to be a world champion.

02:27:38.000 And they are, you know, in quotes, a world champion over there.

02:27:41.000 But ask the average person on the street who they are, no one knows.

02:27:45.000 Ask them who Alex Pereira is.

02:27:46.000 Everybody knows.

02:27:48.000 The thing is, those guys, if they're doing that and they're getting paid more, you have to make a decision.

02:27:54.000 Like, are you willing to take more money now in this organization versus the potential of much more fame, sponsors, and maybe less money initially in the UFC?

02:28:07.000 But if you can be a champion, that's really what every fighter wants to be.

02:28:11.000 Because if you spend five, six years in an organization, the reality is your prime is about five, six years.

02:28:19.000 You look at the elite of the elite guys, Anderson Silva in his prime, it's about five, six years.

02:28:24.000 Fedora Amelian Echo in his prime, it's about five, six years.

02:28:27.000 So you could burn out your prime in an organization where you're not getting as much talent and not getting as much recognition.

02:28:36.000 So it depends on what you're doing it for.

02:28:37.000 If you're purely a prize fighter and you want to fight for the highest bidder, the difference between MMA and the UFC is you can do that in boxing.

02:28:45.000 So in boxing, people go to see the fighter.

02:28:48.000 You know, if Terrence Crawford is fighting Canelo Alvarez, my mom could be the promoter.

02:28:53.000 Nobody gives a shit.

02:28:54.000 They want to see that fight.

02:28:55.000 And you put that fight on pay-per-view, it's going to sell.

02:28:58.000 You put it on Dazone, you put it on Netflix, it's going to sell.

02:29:02.000 In MMA, that's not necessarily the case.

02:29:06.000 The interesting challenge to that is this Netflix thing.

02:29:09.000 So with Ronda Rousey versus Gina Carano, even though Gina Carano hasn't fought since the 2000s, I don't remember what year it was the last time she fought.

02:29:20.000 I want to make a guess.

02:29:21.000 Let me guess.

02:29:22.000 I want to say 2007, 2008.

02:29:26.000 When was the last time Gina Carano fought?

02:29:29.000 And she's 43, and I think Ronda's 39.

02:29:33.000 But Ronda's so famous, and people are so interested.

02:29:36.000 And if it's on Netflix and people already have Netflix, I guarantee you, you'll get millions of people that'll watch that.

02:29:41.000 So that'll be good, right?

02:29:43.000 And that's good for the fighters.

02:29:44.000 And I know they offered some fighters that I know a very large purse to compete on that card.

02:29:49.000 Well, Francis Ngana might be one, right?

02:29:51.000 He might be.

02:29:51.000 Yeah, there's talk of that.

02:29:53.000 No, actually, I think that's been, I think that's been confirmed.

02:29:56.000 I think he's fighting Philip Linz.

02:29:59.000 2009.

02:30:01.000 Okay.

02:30:01.000 So that was the last time she fought.

02:30:02.000 Chris Cyberg was a beast.

02:30:05.000 Yeah.

02:30:06.000 There was a lot of supplements involved in that.

02:30:09.000 There was a lot going on with her.

02:30:10.000 I mean, that was the Wild West of testing, and she looked freak.

02:30:14.000 Yeah, the eye test was kind of.

02:30:16.000 Yeah, the eye test was 100%.

02:30:20.000 But it'll still be exciting.

02:30:22.000 People will, you know, hopefully they've had enough time.

02:30:24.000 I know there's a lot of video footage of Rhonda training for quite a while.

02:30:28.000 She lost a lot of weight.

02:30:30.000 She got really slim.

02:30:31.000 You know, she looks outstanding, especially with her grappling.

02:30:31.000 She looks fit.

02:30:35.000 She's doing a lot of judo throws and arm bars, and she's lost a step.

02:30:40.000 There's a difference between that and competition.

02:30:42.000 There's ring rust.

02:30:43.000 There's a lot of factors.

02:30:44.000 Gina Carano was a legit Muay Thai champion.

02:30:47.000 She's got real power, and she was a very good striker when she was young.

02:30:50.000 She was a very technical, solid striker when she was young.

02:30:55.000 How long has it been since she, you know, well, I mean, how long did she stop training for, right?

02:31:01.000 She did movies.

02:31:02.000 She's done The Mandalorian.

02:31:04.000 She's had a lot of success acting, but it seems like there's probably quite a bit of time.

02:31:09.000 She lost a ton of weight, too.

02:31:10.000 Look.

02:31:12.000 And she looks quite a bit bigger than Ronda.

02:31:13.000 Those are two attractive ladies, I'm sure.

02:31:15.000 I'm going to say so.

02:31:16.000 Yep.

02:31:18.000 Oh, Jake Paul is in the middle.

02:31:19.000 Yeah, Rhonda looks very angry.

02:31:20.000 He looks kind of awkward though, Jake, to be honest.

02:31:26.000 You know, when it comes to grappling, you give Rhonda a big advantage.

02:31:29.000 She's one of the best submission artists ever, period.

02:31:32.000 You know, her arm bar is about as good as a cat's.

02:31:34.000 She's got fantastic judo, bronze medalists in the Olympics.

02:31:38.000 But when it comes to Gina, Gina was like a solid striker when she was young.

02:31:42.000 And the difference in striking would definitely benefit Gina.

02:31:45.000 You would have to lean in her direction.

02:31:47.000 But again, when you're talking about like 2009, it's a long time, man.

02:31:52.000 17 years?

02:31:53.000 It's a long time to not compete.

02:31:56.000 Well, there do seem to be a lot of fights nowadays in various disciplines happening where it's like you're not seeing people at their prime.

02:32:03.000 You're maybe sometimes seeing people who aren't professionals but are famous.

02:32:07.000 And there seems to be a lot of money to be made doing that.

02:32:10.000 Yeah, as long as you match them correctly, right?

02:32:12.000 Yeah.

02:32:13.000 That was the thing that was wild with Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua.

02:32:18.000 Jake Paul is a cruiserweight and you've got Joshua who is heavy for the heavyweight division.

02:32:23.000 You looked at the size matchup between the two.

02:32:26.000 And at one point I was like, he's going to kill him.

02:32:29.000 Well, he did.

02:32:31.000 I mean, I think Jake probably knew it going in.

02:32:33.000 And I think his game plan was just to move a lot.

02:32:37.000 And he did a lot of that, did a lot of moving.

02:32:40.000 He hit him a few times, and he hit him with some wild shots from the outside where he kind of dove in and threw wild punches.

02:32:46.000 I think that was probably part of the strategy.

02:32:48.000 But I mean, ultimately, you're looking at Anthony Joshua, who's not just a heavyweight champion in boxing, but a one-punch knockout artist and a former Olympic gold medalist.

02:32:57.000 He's a fucking highly skilled man.

02:33:00.000 Very highly, highly skilled.

02:33:03.000 That was a strange fight because up to that point, Jake's Paul's fight was the other way around.

02:33:07.000 Like he had a he clearly had an advantage.

02:33:10.000 And that was like flipping the script the other way.

02:33:12.000 Well, smart dude, you know, very smart.

02:33:15.000 Do you think that was smart?

02:33:16.000 Very smart in how he promotes himself, smart in that, like, you can't criticize him for not fighting dangerous fights.

02:33:16.000 Yeah.

02:33:21.000 That's a guy you've got to respect, right?

02:33:23.000 Yeah.

02:33:23.000 The Mike Tyson one was a little sus.

02:33:26.000 I mean, Mike Tyson is, you know, he's on the older side.

02:33:29.000 Whereas Anthony Joshua, he's not that old.

02:33:31.000 It's not just that.

02:33:32.000 Like, the fight itself was a little sus.

02:33:34.000 Because it looked like a sparring match.

02:33:34.000 How do you mean?

02:33:35.000 Right.

02:33:36.000 Looked like there was an agreement in place.

02:33:37.000 Okay.

02:33:38.000 I don't know if there was, you know, but Terrence Crawford thought it was.

02:33:42.000 Really?

02:33:43.000 Yeah.

02:33:44.000 He looked a little sus.

02:33:45.000 I mean, Mike is how old is Mike?

02:33:46.000 58, 59?

02:33:47.000 Yeah.

02:33:48.000 I mean, I still wouldn't get in a ring with him.

02:33:50.000 Yeah, no, it'll still kill you.

02:33:51.000 But it's like, I mean, it's not saying that Jake would have even won.

02:33:55.000 I mean, who knows?

02:33:57.000 I mean, if Mike really could have like you saw he's capable of those flurries when he's hitting pads, he's still capable of massive speed and power.

02:34:07.000 It's not saying that, but it's like, could he sustain a real fight?

02:34:11.000 Does he want to get hit in the head anymore at this point in his life?

02:34:14.000 And it's also when you get to that age, you can look and you can, there'll be glimpses where you're like, oh, this is the old, the Tyson of old.

02:34:22.000 But it's also as well, he's still a 58-year-old dude.

02:34:25.000 You know, punch around the head, that can cause a brain hemorrhage, et cetera.

02:34:29.000 And he can die.

02:34:30.000 Sure.

02:34:31.000 Fighters die at the peak of their powers or get brain damage.

02:34:34.000 I mean, it's going to be, I'm no neurologist, but I'm certain that that is a higher risk when you're 58.

02:34:40.000 Yeah, I would recommend it.

02:34:43.000 So the thing, this is why I asked you about Eddie Hearn and Dana.

02:34:46.000 There's talk about them having a boxing match.

02:34:47.000 Oh, that's funny.

02:34:48.000 Dana can box.

02:34:49.000 He can really box.

02:34:50.000 Like, I've seen Dana hit mitts before.

02:34:52.000 I've seen Dana Sparr.

02:34:53.000 Dana can actually box.

02:34:54.000 And there was a time where Dana was supposed to have a boxing match with Tito Ortiz.

02:34:58.000 Right.

02:34:58.000 Wow.

02:34:59.000 And, you know, even Tito acknowledged, because Dana was his manager at one point in time.

02:35:03.000 Even Tito acknowledged, like, Dana's a really good boxer.

02:35:06.000 He can box.

02:35:07.000 He spent a lot of his time boxing when he was young.

02:35:09.000 I mean, I don't know how much of it he's doing these days.

02:35:11.000 He's so fucking busy.

02:35:13.000 Yeah.

02:35:13.000 You know, he's so involved in Zoofa boxing now.

02:35:16.000 And he's involved in some of these Riyadh season events.

02:35:21.000 So it's like, you know, I don't, I think it's probably just talk.

02:35:24.000 You know, Eddie Hearn's a very tall guy, though.

02:35:26.000 He's a big dude.

02:35:27.000 Yeah, he's a big dude.

02:35:28.000 And he used to box as well.

02:35:29.000 He boxed his dad, I think.

02:35:29.000 Did he?

02:35:31.000 I heard him talking about that.

02:35:33.000 Yeah.

02:35:33.000 Interesting.

02:35:33.000 Yeah.

02:35:34.000 There's a fight.

02:35:35.000 Yeah.

02:35:36.000 Yes.

02:35:37.000 I don't want to see it.

02:35:38.000 I'll watch, though.

02:35:40.000 That's not what I mean.

02:35:41.000 You don't want to see it, but you'll watch.

02:35:42.000 Yeah.

02:35:43.000 Well, there's certain things I don't want to see that I watch, like slap fight.

02:35:45.000 Like if someone sends me a video, if it shows up on my Instagram feed of some poor slob getting slapped in the shadow realm, I'll watch it just for how they hit their head off the table and stiffen up on the way down.

02:35:58.000 Yeah.

02:35:59.000 That's combat sports for the TikTok generation.

02:36:01.000 Yeah, right.

02:36:02.000 When you think about it, it's not even combat sports.

02:36:04.000 I mean, it's just slapping each other.

02:36:07.000 That's all it is.

02:36:08.000 If you want to call slapping each other a sport, that seems crazy.

02:36:11.000 It's also, there's a fundamental problem with slap fighting: someone has to go first.

02:36:16.000 Yeah.

02:36:17.000 And that's a giant advantage.

02:36:18.000 Right.

02:36:18.000 Going first is the biggest advantage of all time.

02:36:21.000 You know, and how's that decided?

02:36:23.000 The coin toss.

02:36:24.000 I don't know.

02:36:25.000 I don't watch it.

02:36:26.000 Is it?

02:36:27.000 I have no idea.

02:36:28.000 No.

02:36:29.000 I physically can't watch it, to be honest.

02:36:32.000 Yeah.

02:36:32.000 Well, to me, it's like this, at least Zoofah boxing is real.

02:36:37.000 This is a real combat sport.

02:36:38.000 Whereas it's not just slapping each other in the head.

02:36:41.000 Well, to me, the exciting thing, and correct me if this is wrong, but the exciting thing is it has felt for a long time that seeing top boxers fighting each other is a rare occurrence.

02:36:49.000 Right.

02:36:50.000 UFC, you see that every single card.

02:36:52.000 Yeah.

02:36:52.000 Well, the Saudis are stepping up, and that's, you know, with Turkey al-Sheikh, like his role in boxing has really changed that.

02:37:03.000 Like, what they've done with Riyadh Seasons done is make fights that managers have said, don't do this.

02:37:10.000 Like, a good one is Martin Bocoli versus, God, I forgot his name.

02:37:17.000 Anderson.

02:37:20.000 Young prospect.

02:37:22.000 Very good fighter.

02:37:23.000 And Bocoli is a fucking big, dangerous guy.

02:37:26.000 And Bocoli knocked this guy out.

02:37:28.000 Jared Anderson.

02:37:29.000 That's it.

02:37:30.000 Jared Anderson was undefeated, up-and-coming prospect, young guy, and Bocoli beat him up.

02:37:37.000 And he really wasn't there yet.

02:37:40.000 He wasn't ready for that guy yet.

02:37:42.000 And Bocoli stopped him, and that derailed this guy's career.

02:37:46.000 But he probably got a big paycheck.

02:37:48.000 Right.

02:37:49.000 And so what I understand is there was a lot of people saying that's a bad fight to make.

02:37:54.000 Don't do it.

02:37:55.000 Yeah, I mean, the UFC has been, seems to me from the outside, quite careful about giving people, like Bo Nicol and Raul Rosas Jr. and Sean Nomalley, just trying to get them to build up slow.

02:38:07.000 And even Dave, you know, Raul and Bo Nicol both lost at one point, right?

02:38:11.000 Well, yeah.

02:38:12.000 Well, Bo Nickel fought Reiner DeRitter, who's a one champion and a huge guy for the Middleweight Division.

02:38:18.000 And Reiner did a fantastic job of, you know, you don't want to take Reiner to the ground because he's an elite submission athlete.

02:38:25.000 And standing up, he's got vicious knees to the body.

02:38:27.000 That's like one of his best weapons.

02:38:29.000 And he fucked Bo up.

02:38:31.000 But that was a good fight for Bo because he came back from that and fought Hudolfo Vieira and looked fantastic afterwards.

02:38:37.000 Like he's a real competitor and a winner.

02:38:39.000 And the kind of guy that gets knocked down like that is going to get back up and be five times more ferocious.

02:38:45.000 And that's what he is.

02:38:47.000 But, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, why do you protect some people and not protect others?

02:38:53.000 You know, and is it because they have better management?

02:38:55.000 Is it, you know, because sometimes the UFC will tell you, like, if you want to fight in the UFC, hey, we've got a fight.

02:39:02.000 We need an opponent in four days.

02:39:04.000 Someone dropped out and you're going to fight blank.

02:39:08.000 And that person who you're going to fight might be a surging contender who's fucking terrifying.

02:39:13.000 He's putting everybody to sleep.

02:39:15.000 And you have to make a decision.

02:39:16.000 Like, this is not a good fight for me at this point in my career.

02:39:19.000 But if I say no to the UFC, maybe they will never offer me a fight again.

02:39:23.000 And also, you're a fighter.

02:39:25.000 And fighters from everything that I know, you're going to back yourself.

02:39:29.000 Yes, but you have to do that intelligently, right?

02:39:31.000 You have to realize that if you are in a process, and this is the thing about everyone up into the championship level, up until a certain point in time when you plateau, everyone is constantly getting better.

02:39:43.000 So you get better from training, you get better from work with your coaches, but you also get better with experience.

02:39:50.000 And what boxers and boxing management has always done is make sure that you get the proper experience and the proper kinds of opponents are going to test you in certain ways along the way.

02:40:01.000 So the idea is you give a fighter a stiff test that they can pass.

02:40:04.000 You don't give a fighter a chance where they're going to compete against someone who's many, many levels above them and they don't have a chance at all because that can destroy confidence.

02:40:13.000 They could cause real damage to you.

02:40:16.000 You can get really badly hurt and never be the same again.

02:40:18.000 There's certain fights that fighters have where they are never the same again.

02:40:21.000 They get knocked out by someone and they just aren't the same.

02:40:24.000 They get a flying knee to the face and they're done.

02:40:26.000 They get a head kick and they're done and they just are never the same guy again.

02:40:30.000 You can point to numerous examples of good fights where there weren't mismatches but that a fighter was never the same again.

02:40:37.000 It's a dangerous sport.

02:40:40.000 It is the most.

02:40:42.000 I mean, it's not the most in terms of death.

02:40:44.000 Boxing is the most in terms of death.

02:40:46.000 And I think that's because they have less options.

02:40:49.000 You know, you can't clinch.

02:40:50.000 You can't hold on, try to take a fight to the ground.

02:40:52.000 You can't defend yourself as well.

02:40:53.000 There's also the thing where you get knocked down and you get back up.

02:40:57.000 Well, you clear your head momentarily, but you're still fucked.

02:41:00.000 And now you can't get out of the way of punches.

02:41:02.000 Now you're really getting fucked up and you're getting much more damage than you would have gotten if you got clipped that first time and then the guy punched you a couple times when you're on the ground.

02:41:10.000 Or you got choked out.

02:41:11.000 Yeah, or you got choked out is way better.

02:41:13.000 Choked out is way better.

02:41:13.000 Yeah.

02:41:14.000 Arm bar way better.

02:41:15.000 Just tap and then you're good.

02:41:16.000 It's also the duration of the fight.

02:41:18.000 Boxing matches tend to last for a lot longer normally.

02:41:21.000 If they grow the duration.

02:41:22.000 They certainly can if it's 12 minutes, right?

02:41:24.000 You're dealing with 36 minutes of fighting of getting punched in the head versus 25 for an MMA fight.

02:41:31.000 The opposite of that, you would say, though, but they're not getting slammed on their head.

02:41:35.000 They're not getting kicked.

02:41:37.000 They're not getting kneed in the face.

02:41:38.000 They're not getting cut open with elbows.

02:41:40.000 There's a lot of things that can happen in an MMA fight that are way worse.

02:41:43.000 But do you also think as well that when I watch MMA, losses, look, of course, losses are detrimental and they affect careers and they knock people back, but they don't seem to be as consequential as losses in boxing.

02:41:55.000 In terms of your career?

02:41:56.000 In terms of your career and the way you're perceived.

02:41:59.000 Right.

02:41:59.000 Well, I think it's accepted that if you're fighting a bunch of different styles, you know, style versus style, there's always a potential of losing, especially amongst the elite of the elite.

02:42:10.000 And you're seeing more of that in MMA at the highest level.

02:42:14.000 You're not seeing guys avoiding each other because there's one champion and it's a UFC champion in that weight class.

02:42:20.000 And you have to fight that guy if you want the title.

02:42:22.000 Whereas there's the WBC, the WBO, the IBF, and you have all these different organizations for boxing.

02:42:29.000 And so you can be a champion while avoiding the other champions.

02:42:32.000 Whereas in the UFC, that's the thing that's exciting: you get to see Max Holloway, who's a super dominant guy.

02:42:38.000 And then he fights Charles Oliveira.

02:42:38.000 Right.

02:42:40.000 Yeah.

02:42:41.000 And it doesn't go that way.

02:42:44.000 It's crazy.

02:42:45.000 That was so dominant.

02:42:46.000 Yeah, it was so dominant.

02:42:47.000 And Max Holloway was a two-to-one favorite, at least at some points in the betting line.

02:42:51.000 Yeah.

02:42:52.000 And it kind of looks, I mean, obviously, Hamza Chemayev is a whole category of its own, but it sort of felt a little bit that level of domination on the ground.

02:43:00.000 Yeah, the difference is Holloway was getting dominated on the feet, too.

02:43:04.000 Oliveira's fucking dangerous shit on the feet.

02:43:07.000 I mean, he was better everywhere.

02:43:09.000 Yeah.

02:43:09.000 And he's bigger.

02:43:10.000 He's a bigger guy.

02:43:12.000 You could see that in the exchanges.

02:43:13.000 Like, every time he got a clinch on Max, he just hoisted him up in the air and slammed him to the ground.

02:43:19.000 It was so definitive.

02:43:20.000 That was a spectacular performance by Olivera.

02:43:24.000 It was.

02:43:25.000 The thing that my concern going into that fight was I'd watched the Matalis Gamrod fight with Olivera.

02:43:31.000 I'm like, Oliveira's as good, if not better, than he's ever been before.

02:43:35.000 Gamerot is fucking dangerous.

02:43:36.000 And he's a really good grappler.

02:43:38.000 And they went to the ground and he was lost.

02:43:40.000 Oliveira was just tying him up in knots.

02:43:42.000 He wasn't able to get anything off on Olivera.

02:43:44.000 I'm like, what is Max going to be able to do on the ground against this guy?

02:43:48.000 And then when it comes to standing up, Justin Gaetchy said no one ever hit him harder than Oliveira did.

02:43:53.000 That Oliveira, it's like he carries big power in his punches and big power in his kicks, too.

02:43:58.000 And he's so reckless on the feet.

02:44:00.000 Not reckless, I should say, but so aggressive on the feet because he wants you to take him to the ground because he's the best submission artist in the history of the sport.

02:44:07.000 He has more submissions than anyone ever in the history of the sport.

02:44:10.000 Wow.

02:44:11.000 And the thing that you don't appreciate, I mean, you really kindly sorted out tickets for us in the UFC in New York.

02:44:17.000 And you know, these guys kick hard.

02:44:20.000 You know they punch hard.

02:44:21.000 But when you're there ringside and you feel the kick, oh, yeah, you guys are close.

02:44:25.000 That's the thing.

02:44:26.000 Is when you're close, you can hear the slap.

02:44:29.000 Do you know what happened, though, in New York?

02:44:30.000 We sat down, and then some guy that I didn't initially recognize came and sat in front of us.

02:44:35.000 And that was Dylan Dannis.

02:44:37.000 And he kicks off his hole.

02:44:38.000 Oh, the brawl.

02:44:40.000 She sat literally right in front of us.

02:44:42.000 Oh, you had a front row seat?

02:44:43.000 So the actual fight.

02:44:43.000 Yeah, we did.

02:44:44.000 Oh, boy.

02:44:45.000 Was that exciting?

02:44:47.000 Yeah.

02:44:48.000 Well, I just turned to the side and then there was this just giant brawl right in front of us all of a sudden.

02:44:53.000 Those are very unfortunate.

02:44:54.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:44:54.000 I don't like those.

02:44:55.000 Yeah, no, me neither.

02:44:56.000 It was crazy.

02:44:57.000 It was crazy.

02:44:58.000 Well, Dylan Dennis, he knows how to get a lot of attention.

02:45:00.000 Yeah.

02:45:01.000 And I don't know if he does.

02:45:03.000 And I will say this.

02:45:04.000 I don't agree with his behavior, but unlike a lot of online trolls, that guy actually does it in real life.

02:45:09.000 Do you know what I mean?

02:45:10.000 He actually does.

02:45:10.000 Right.

02:45:11.000 I don't like it.

02:45:12.000 Dylan can fight.

02:45:13.000 He can fight.

02:45:14.000 He's a very good submission artist.

02:45:15.000 He's a Marcelo Garcia black belt.

02:45:17.000 He's very legit on the ground.

02:45:19.000 Connor McGregor brought him in for training, like for a lot of his camps.

02:45:23.000 Yeah.

02:45:24.000 Are you excited for the White House card?

02:45:25.000 That looks really good.

02:45:27.000 Yes.

02:45:29.000 I'm excited.

02:45:29.000 It sounds crazy.

02:45:31.000 I know it's going to be very high security and high stress and weird to have a fight at the White House in the middle of a fucking war.

02:45:39.000 I would hope the war will be sorted out by June, but quite honestly, I'm not confident that that's going to be the case.

02:45:46.000 No.

02:45:46.000 Yeah, no.

02:45:47.000 Yeah.

02:45:47.000 So that would be weird.

02:45:48.000 Yeah.

02:45:48.000 Having this very high-profile event where everybody's in one place at one time right there.

02:45:52.000 I hadn't thought of that.

02:45:53.000 Yeah.

02:45:54.000 So you're not excited to be there.

02:45:56.000 It seems like you're asking for.

02:45:57.000 Holy shit.

02:45:58.000 I haven't thought of that at all.

02:45:59.000 How could you not think of that?

02:46:00.000 Well, because I'm not going to be there.

02:46:02.000 You're the one that has to think of it.

02:46:03.000 I was just like, this is a great lineup.

02:46:05.000 I look forward to the fights.

02:46:06.000 Yeah.

02:46:06.000 Because if you want to talk about hidden hard, I mean, Ilya Toporia, fuck me.

02:46:10.000 That's when you think, like, Max Holloway and Charles Oliveira.

02:46:14.000 Charles Oliveira dominates Max Holloway, and then you realize how quickly Ilya DiPoria starched Charles Oliveira.

02:46:22.000 And you go, how good is that guy?

02:46:24.000 He's a once-in-a-generation talent.

02:46:24.000 Right.

02:46:27.000 Like, he knocked out in three fights three all-time greats.

02:46:32.000 Insane.

02:46:33.000 Volkanovsky, and then he knocks out Max Holloway, and then he knocks out Charles Oliveira.

02:46:39.000 In two different weight classes, he knocks out three all-time greats, three fights in a row.

02:46:44.000 And he just definitive starching of these guys.

02:46:48.000 Like, he's a once-in-a-generation talent.

02:46:51.000 And think how good Volk, how dominant Volk is.

02:46:54.000 Like, how good he looked against Diego Lopez.

02:46:56.000 How good Max Holloway looks all the time, especially in striking exchanges.

02:46:59.000 Max is a very hard guy to hit, and Ilya just dominated him.

02:47:04.000 He's fucking spooky good and insanely confident, insanely charismatic.

02:47:09.000 Yeah.

02:47:09.000 Do you think part of it as well is just technique is so important?

02:47:13.000 It's the most important thing because you look at Yusuk when he came up against Fury.

02:47:18.000 And the first fight, I didn't give Yusuk a prayer.

02:47:20.000 Like, Yusuk is basically a glorified cruiserweight.

02:47:24.000 And you look at Tyson Fury, 6'8, undefeated.

02:47:27.000 You know, he comes from a traveler background.

02:47:29.000 This is a guy who was taught to box from the age of three.

02:47:32.000 I've taught traveler kids.

02:47:33.000 They all taught how to fight.

02:47:35.000 They know how to fight.

02:47:36.000 They know how to throw punches.

02:47:37.000 Boxing is in their blood.

02:47:39.000 And you just saw that he was so technically supreme that Fury had no answer and lost consecutive fights against him.

02:47:46.000 Yeah, and then look at what he did to Dubois.

02:47:49.000 Usik is special.

02:47:51.000 I mean, he's basically a gigantic Lomachenko.

02:47:54.000 Like unbelievable movement.

02:47:55.000 And he was trained by Lomachenko's father as well.

02:47:58.000 Same trainer.

02:48:00.000 Yeah.

02:48:01.000 I mean, there's just people that are better than everybody else.

02:48:03.000 And it seems like Ilya Toporia is one of those guys.

02:48:06.000 He's just weirdly better than everybody else.

02:48:09.000 And he can take it too.

02:48:11.000 Like one of the fights that he had, so when he was competing at Featherweight, he took a fight at lightweight against Jai Herbert.

02:48:17.000 And Jai Herbert in the first round caught him with a perfect head kick, rocked him, dropped him.

02:48:23.000 And Ilya Taporia wound up grabbing his legs, taking him down.

02:48:26.000 They fought on the ground.

02:48:27.000 And then the second round, Ilya just put him into the shadow realm.

02:48:30.000 He hit him with a combination against the cage where he hit him with a, I think it was a left hook to the body and a right overhand that just spun his head around.

02:48:39.000 It was wild.

02:48:40.000 I mean, face first, face planted.

02:48:42.000 He's got freakish power.

02:48:45.000 So it is technique.

02:48:46.000 His technique is flawless.

02:48:48.000 His technique in the grappling is flawless.

02:48:50.000 Was he good at grappling as well?

02:48:51.000 He's phenomenal at grappling.

02:48:53.000 Really?

02:48:53.000 That's his main base.

02:48:54.000 He started off as a grappler.

02:48:56.000 Really?

02:48:57.000 Yeah.

02:48:57.000 I didn't even know that.

02:48:58.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:48:58.000 In his early fights, he's just taking it.

02:49:00.000 Because you don't see that much nowadays.

02:49:01.000 He just fucking knocks everyone out, basically, right?

02:49:03.000 He's just, it's his mind more than anything.

02:49:07.000 His confidence is real.

02:49:09.000 It's not bluster.

02:49:10.000 Like, he's really, he celebrates the fights the day before the fight.

02:49:16.000 He has a celebration of his victory.

02:49:18.000 He did that against Charles Oliveira.

02:49:19.000 They all went out to dinner.

02:49:20.000 They're making toasts, celebrating his victory the night before the fight itself.

02:49:25.000 That's a high-risk strategy.

02:49:27.000 It's the crazy thing.

02:49:27.000 Meanwhile, I go out and knocks him out in the first round.

02:49:29.000 Like, who fucking knocks out Charles Oliveira in the first round like that?

02:49:32.000 Especially now, like the Charles Oliveira of today.

02:49:35.000 That's crazy.

02:49:37.000 It's many things, but the mind that allowed him to get so elite at grappling also allowed him to get so elite at striking.

02:49:46.000 And it's setups and traps.

02:49:49.000 It's not just throwing wild bombs.

02:49:52.000 It's defense.

02:49:53.000 His defense is fantastic.

02:49:55.000 You saw that in the Josh Emmett fight.

02:49:56.000 Josh Emmett, as far as one punch power, he rivals everybody.

02:50:00.000 I mean, you saw that fight where he knocked Bryce Mitchell out with a punch to the forehead.

02:50:05.000 That guy hits so fucking hard.

02:50:07.000 And when you look at it, it makes sense.

02:50:09.000 I mean, he's a fucking tank.

02:50:11.000 And Ilya DiPoria just slipped away from everything, slipped away from everything, and then eventually just put it on him.

02:50:17.000 He's great everywhere, man.

02:50:19.000 He's great on the ground.

02:50:20.000 He's great standing up.

02:50:21.000 And more importantly, it's his mind.

02:50:24.000 Like, he doesn't make mistakes.

02:50:27.000 He's just a force in there.

02:50:29.000 He's the new breed.

02:50:31.000 You know, like with every generation, every generation builds on the success of the previous generation.

02:50:37.000 They all learn from the elites of the past.

02:50:40.000 He's our version of what's possible now.

02:50:42.000 Wow.

02:50:43.000 He's that good.

02:50:44.000 I was hoping.

02:50:45.000 I was hoping for the White House card, Dana would do something and pull John Jones out of the bag.

02:50:49.000 I was hoping that as well.

02:50:51.000 Yeah, I was hoping that as well.

02:50:52.000 That would have been really special.

02:50:54.000 Yeah, I don't know why that didn't happen.

02:50:56.000 I don't know.

02:50:56.000 I mean, there's John's version.

02:50:58.000 There's the UFC's version.

02:51:00.000 I don't know what was the stumbling block there.

02:51:02.000 Well, I think it's fair to say him and Dana don't get on very well.

02:51:06.000 I don't think it's that bad.

02:51:08.000 They certainly could make a deal.

02:51:10.000 I don't think it's as bad as, like, say, Francis Nganu.

02:51:12.000 The Francis Singano situation, like, Dana does not like him at all and won't do any business with him, period.

02:51:18.000 Because that would be the fight.

02:51:19.000 Francis Ngana versus John Jones.

02:51:21.000 Oh, wow.

02:51:22.000 Oh, my word.

02:51:22.000 That would be good.

02:51:23.000 But also, Alex Pereira versus John Jones would be the fight as well.

02:51:26.000 Like, you wouldn't, it didn't, a title doesn't mean anything.

02:51:29.000 You could do the BMF heavyweight version.

02:51:31.000 Like, it doesn't matter.

02:51:33.000 Like, just those two guys fighting.

02:51:35.000 I mean, that would be titles are irrelevant when you're dealing with the all-time great in John Jones, the greatest of all time.

02:51:41.000 And then Alex Pereira, a generational talent who's the most devastating striker we've ever seen inside the sport.

02:51:47.000 I mean, as you look at Ilya, I mean, Ilya's phenomenal, but Ilya is like more complete as a fighter.

02:51:53.000 But Alex is freaky.

02:51:56.000 I ever tell you what Mark Goddard said when he fought Khalil Rowntry.

02:52:00.000 So he beats Khalil Rowtree up and they stop the fight.

02:52:04.000 And then Mark Goddard grabs me as I go into the octagon.

02:52:08.000 He goes, the sound it makes when he hits them is ungodly.

02:52:14.000 That's what he said.

02:52:15.000 He goes, mate, I've been doing this for 20 years.

02:52:17.000 He goes, I've seen it all.

02:52:19.000 He goes, it's different.

02:52:21.000 The sound, the impact is like, he's a freak, man.

02:52:25.000 That guy, he's a physical freak.

02:52:27.000 He's a real genuine Amazon warrior who's just built different than other people.

02:52:33.000 You know, I'm sure you've seen him punch that machine.

02:52:36.000 Yeah.

02:52:36.000 Where he gets like 190.

02:52:38.000 Francis Ngano got like 129.

02:52:40.000 What?

02:52:41.000 And he got 190.

02:52:42.000 Yeah.

02:52:43.000 Holy shit.

02:52:44.000 No, it's freak power.

02:52:46.000 I did not enjoy watching the end of that Khalil Roundtree fight.

02:52:49.000 I'm not gonna lie, that was Khalil Roundtree is like a fucking animal.

02:52:53.000 He's a warrior.

02:52:54.000 He's just a warrior.

02:52:55.000 I mean, he knew going into that fight, he was willing to go out on his shields, he wasn't afraid, and he went after him.

02:53:00.000 He went after him.

02:53:01.000 He did.

02:53:01.000 But the consequences of getting hit.

02:53:04.000 And then Alex was starting to tune him up at the end where he was leaning away from shots and then countering and leaning away from shots and countering.

02:53:12.000 He was in his flow state, and that's where it got real spooky because Khalil became like a sitting target.

02:53:17.000 And with each shot, his ability to get out of the way diminished.

02:53:20.000 With each kick that landed, his ability to move diminished.

02:53:23.000 It got spooky.

02:53:25.000 Yeah, and then it becomes a dilemma for the referee.

02:53:27.000 Like, when do you actually step in?

02:53:27.000 Yeah.

02:53:29.000 Because, look, there's a consent for the fighter to be there and to take part in the fight, but there comes a point where you have to step in for the fighter's own health.

02:53:39.000 Yeah, there comes a point where you realize they can't defend themselves anymore and they're getting just tuned up.

02:53:43.000 And that was the end of the fight.

02:53:45.000 I mean, that was the right time to stop it.

02:53:47.000 But it was hard to watch.

02:53:49.000 But then you get fights like Usman versus Leon Edwards, where he's getting smashed for five rounds and he just fucking pulls a kick out of him in the last minute and knocks him out.

02:53:49.000 It was.

02:53:58.000 But he wasn't getting smashed.

02:53:59.000 Not the way Khalil Roundtree was at the end.

02:54:01.000 Yeah, that's fair.

02:54:01.000 That's fine.

02:54:02.000 He wasn't getting beat.

02:54:04.000 He was getting beat.

02:54:05.000 Yeah, but he wasn't in danger of getting stopped or really hurt badly.

02:54:09.000 But that's why we all watch it because it's that knowledge that anything can happen.

02:54:13.000 Yeah.

02:54:14.000 You know, Hack Environment versus Lennox Lewis.

02:54:17.000 You know, no one gave no one gave Hakeem a prayer when he went in.

02:54:21.000 He was Lennox, he is a supreme fighter, Olympic gold medalist, one of the greatest to ever do it.

02:54:27.000 And then that one punch he hit flush on Lennox's jaw and he was out.

02:54:31.000 I remember watching it going, I mean, no one saw that.

02:54:33.000 Especially in the heavyweight division, one punch with those guys.

02:54:37.000 It's why I really like it because in our world, like, you know, if I do a debate, everyone talks shit to each other.

02:54:41.000 And like, you know, everyone talks shit, then they go have a debate.

02:54:44.000 Everyone still talks shit afterwards.

02:54:46.000 In combat sports, everyone talks shit and then you find out.

02:54:49.000 Yeah.

02:54:49.000 Right.

02:54:50.000 It's very definitive.

02:54:50.000 Yeah.

02:54:52.000 You win or you lose.

02:54:53.000 So it's not subject to other people's interpretations of because like you'll see that in debates too.

02:54:58.000 Like I'll see a debate where I think, like in for you, for example, well, you clearly won the debate and then I'll see people say you got owned.

02:55:06.000 You know, and they're like, okay.

02:55:06.000 Right.

02:55:07.000 All the people who agree with me say I dominated and all the people who agree with the other guys say he dominated.

02:55:12.000 Yeah, and you'll see these pundits.

02:55:14.000 And that's a weird economy, right?

02:55:16.000 There's a weird economy of commentators on other people's exchanges.

02:55:20.000 Yeah.

02:55:20.000 And it's that is a weird sport.

02:55:23.000 It's a weird.

02:55:24.000 You've made loads of careers.

02:55:25.000 There's loads of people.

02:55:26.000 Joe Rogan said this on his podcast.

02:55:28.000 That's the entire content.

02:55:29.000 They don't even know it.

02:55:29.000 They work for me.

02:55:31.000 They do.

02:55:31.000 They make me more famous.

02:55:33.000 Right.

02:55:34.000 You're getting all the kickbacks.

02:55:35.000 Also, you get to see what kind of a person they are.

02:55:38.000 And they're silly, bitchy people.

02:55:38.000 Right.

02:55:41.000 You go like, well, those silly, bitchy people don't like them.

02:55:43.000 Or maybe someone who you agree with doesn't like me.

02:55:46.000 Like, oh, well, I don't like him anymore.

02:55:47.000 Which is fine.

02:55:47.000 Yeah.

02:55:48.000 But it's like that economy of commenting on other people constantly.

02:55:53.000 The problem with that is you've always put yourself in a position of an outsider.

02:55:57.000 Right.

02:55:58.000 You know, you're a comp like me, right?

02:56:00.000 And when it comes to combat sports, I'm a commentator.

02:56:03.000 That's all I do.

02:56:04.000 I can't fight.

02:56:05.000 I'm 58, right?

02:56:06.000 I'm not going in there.

02:56:07.000 So it's like I am always going to be in this position of only being an observer and a commentator.

02:56:12.000 I'm not going to be like for those people that are commentating on these debates, a lot of them probably fancy themselves intellectual gladiators.

02:56:21.000 They just don't get the opportunity to do it.

02:56:23.000 And occasionally they do, and they usually get trounced.

02:56:25.000 Right.

02:56:25.000 Because really they're not that good, which is why they're commenting in the first place and why they have these fucking stupid hot takes.

02:56:32.000 Well, you know, the frustrating thing for me with the debates nowadays is how few people want to have an actual discussion.

02:56:39.000 It was so refreshing.

02:56:40.000 Last time we came here, we had Dave Smith on our show.

02:56:44.000 I don't know if you saw that one.

02:56:45.000 Yeah, I did.

02:56:45.000 Yeah.

02:56:46.000 We loved it.

02:56:47.000 It was great.

02:56:48.000 We loved it.

02:56:48.000 And Dave enjoyed it.

02:56:50.000 And, you know, it was weird because we obviously have lots of different perspectives on things.

02:56:55.000 But afterwards, a lot of people were like, oh, I can't believe you heard Dove on.

02:56:58.000 And I said to all of them, listen, Dave's only crime is that he has a different opinion to you.

02:57:03.000 Because apart from that, he comes in, he shows up, he's super nice, he's respectful, he's polite, he doesn't do any dirty tricks.

02:57:11.000 He doesn't argue about the definitions of words for 10 minutes, right?

02:57:16.000 He just goes, Here's my opinion, here's your opinion, let's discuss.

02:57:19.000 And that's how conversations should happen.

02:57:22.000 But so much of the debate stuff now is not, people aren't discussing the issues.

02:57:27.000 They've just like decided you're a bad person, and that's what they're trying to achieve.

02:57:30.000 They're trying to get a cheap laugh from the audience that they're playing to who's not even in the room because they know their retard followers are going to watch it online afterwards and be like, oh, he owned them.

02:57:39.000 But where did we get to?

02:57:41.000 Well, it's just, I mean, it's just some people that are doing that.

02:57:45.000 And those people, that's all they can do.

02:57:47.000 That's why they do it that way.

02:57:48.000 Right.

02:57:48.000 You know, if they were really intellectually compelling, and if they were like smart people, like, I don't want enemies.

02:57:55.000 Like, if I can have a sane, rational, peaceful discussion with someone where we disagree with something, I would greatly prefer that than have someone who's insulting me and I'm insulting them.

02:58:05.000 We're trying to get off on each other.

02:58:07.000 Like, why?

02:58:07.000 Yeah.

02:58:08.000 I'm busy.

02:58:09.000 Yeah.

02:58:10.000 I have things to do.

02:58:11.000 Like, I don't need that kind of bullshit in my life.

02:58:13.000 And I don't mind when someone disagrees with me.

02:58:15.000 I think it's healthy.

02:58:17.000 I also want to know why you think the way you think, genuinely.

02:58:17.000 You know what?

02:58:20.000 Right.

02:58:21.000 I see it as an opportunity as like, because we all have blind spots.

02:58:21.000 You know what?

02:58:25.000 Yeah.

02:58:25.000 We all have blind spots.

02:58:26.000 We all have biases.

02:58:27.000 I don't care who you are, how smart you are.

02:58:29.000 You have biases, you're blind spots.

02:58:32.000 Not being microphone.

02:58:33.000 Oh, no, every stream.

02:58:35.000 But when someone goes, well, actually, Francis, you say this, but what about this?

02:58:40.000 Have you thought about this?

02:58:40.000 Have you read about this?

02:58:41.000 I'm like, no.

02:58:42.000 And it's like, well, maybe you should.

02:58:43.000 Right.

02:58:44.000 And maybe you actually won't change your opinion, but certainly have a more nuanced opinion.

02:58:49.000 True.

02:58:50.000 But also, we're talking about shit that actually matters.

02:58:53.000 You know?

02:58:54.000 And it deserves to be taken seriously.

02:58:57.000 Well, the answer is don't engage with those certain people.

02:58:57.000 Yeah.

02:59:01.000 Yeah.

02:59:02.000 I'm learning that.

02:59:03.000 Yeah, we were having a conversation about one particular individual where I'm like, why?

02:59:06.000 Yeah.

02:59:07.000 Don't bother.

02:59:07.000 I can't believe you.

02:59:08.000 I didn't say anything about that discussion because I was just like, I don't want anyone to waste their fucking time watching it.

02:59:13.000 It was awful.

02:59:14.000 I'm fascinated by that too, though, because I'm fascinated by these people that are doing that, where they're just trying to win and use tricks and be sneaky.

02:59:23.000 Because they think of discourse in a completely different way.

02:59:26.000 They think about the whole thing in a completely different way.

02:59:29.000 They're completely ideologically captured.

02:59:31.000 And the place they're starting from is, I want to prove this to be correct.

02:59:36.000 Not I want to know why this person believes it to be incorrect.

02:59:39.000 And I want to find out if maybe we have common ground and maybe they know something I don't or maybe I know something they don't and let's find out.

02:59:47.000 You know what?

02:59:48.000 You know what I really want?

02:59:49.000 And Constantine and I have talked about it a lot.

02:59:51.000 I want somebody on the left to come up and be brilliant at debating and go to people on the right.

02:59:56.000 Well, you say this and you say this, but actually, let's look at this, let's look at that, and be a genuine intellectual force.

03:00:02.000 And what I despair of is I haven't seen anyone be from the left like that in basically a generation.

03:00:08.000 I think the generation that you're talking about has been captured by some certain narratives that you have to agree to that aren't rational.

03:00:16.000 So as soon as you do that and you align yourself with this particular ideology, you're already saying, I'm willing to believe some shit that doesn't make any sense at all because this is the only way to be accepted by my tribe.

03:00:29.000 That intellectually compromises you.

03:00:31.000 And that also, I think, humiliates you in a certain way.

03:00:34.000 It puts you in a position where you're saying something that you know can't be true.

03:00:38.000 So you set up blind spots.

03:00:40.000 Do you think they know it's not true?

03:00:41.000 I think there's got to be a part of them that realizes there's a good argument that it's not true.

03:00:46.000 Especially when it comes to transgender stuff or border stuff.

03:00:51.000 There's certain things where there's no real good faith argument that you should have an open border and allow fucking any psychopath to come across the border and invade your community.

03:01:00.000 That seems crazy.

03:01:02.000 That seems crazy.

03:01:03.000 Like if you understand anything about human nature and the nature of the world and the level of poverty and crime that exists outside of the United States, particularly in third world countries, where you're just allowing.

03:01:14.000 I thought you were talking about Canada there, Joe.

03:01:17.000 I'm all for them evading.

03:01:19.000 They should come over.

03:01:20.000 They should bail on their country until it gets better.

03:01:23.000 I just ask you because I would find it so hard to go on stage in front of, well, what is now hundreds of thousands of people by the time it goes on the internet, right?

03:01:31.000 And just vigorously defend something I didn't believe.

03:01:34.000 Well, that's because you're smart.

03:01:35.000 And I think the problem is a lot of these people aren't really intelligent.

03:01:39.000 What they are is a person who has a good vocabulary, who's acquired a certain amount of technique and skill involved in talking really fast and spouting things that they've seen online that are a bunch of narratives.

03:01:54.000 Like one of the things that people love to do is if you're talking to anyone that's on the right, they want to say, you know, you support a 34-time convicted felon.

03:02:06.000 There's a lot of things that they like to say.

03:02:09.000 There's techniques involved.

03:02:10.000 Instead of like discussing anybody that looked at the actual Trump case, if you're rational and you're on the left, you say, that's a crazy case.

03:02:18.000 There's no way that should be a felony.

03:02:19.000 It's not a felony.

03:02:20.000 There are 34 different misdemeanors.

03:02:22.000 And it's also, it's passed the statute of limitations.

03:02:25.000 This is the craziest, egregious misuse of justice.

03:02:28.000 And the scary thing is, if someone on the right gets in, they decide to do that to someone on the left.

03:02:32.000 Like, you got to put your foot down.

03:02:33.000 Stop that from happening.

03:02:34.000 The Russia, Russia, Russia stuff.

03:02:36.000 Like all that stuff, the Russia gate stuff.

03:02:38.000 That's kind of crazy that someone on the left doesn't call that out and say, hey, guys, this is fucking dangerous because if you're lying and you're having intelligence agencies lie and you're having people lie on television and you're just accepting that, why?

03:02:52.000 Because it's your side?

03:02:54.000 That's supporting your side?

03:02:55.000 That's right.

03:02:56.000 That's crazy.

03:02:56.000 That's why.

03:02:57.000 And I find that very strange because what they do is they pivot to that, which is not relevant to the conversation we're having.

03:03:04.000 Exactly.

03:03:05.000 We're talking about, you know, is it right to do these strikes on Iran or is it this or is it that?

03:03:09.000 You know, what's the situation in the Middle East or whatever?

03:03:12.000 How does bringing up Trump's convictions or otherwise change that?

03:03:17.000 It doesn't affect that conversation or the border or the trans thing or any of the other things.

03:03:22.000 And that's the thing is like, can we just argue the fucking point?

03:03:26.000 Well, I think at a certain point in time, you're going to have to choose real opponents.

03:03:31.000 It's like the Jake Paul thing.

03:03:33.000 But see, I want the real opponents.

03:03:36.000 Where are they?

03:03:37.000 And we've had people on the show where it's like we had this woman from the Guilty Feminist podcast, and she came on and we gave her 40 minutes.

03:03:44.000 She basically laid out her whole vision.

03:03:47.000 And it was respectful and polite, and it was a great conversation, actually.

03:03:51.000 The moment I said, well, you know, you've been speaking for this time.

03:03:54.000 Here's some of the things that I see that don't make sense in my head.

03:03:56.000 Can you help me out?

03:03:57.000 Immediately goes personal.

03:03:59.000 Immediately.

03:04:01.000 And that's what Francis is saying.

03:04:02.000 Like, I'd love to see people who have an ability to argue the point.

03:04:08.000 Yeah.

03:04:09.000 And that's what Dave does.

03:04:11.000 He argues the point, and that's either persuasive to you or it isn't.

03:04:14.000 Well, I think the problem is their point is not very good.

03:04:18.000 Yeah.

03:04:19.000 I think that is the problem.

03:04:20.000 Yeah.

03:04:20.000 And so you have to go personal.

03:04:21.000 You have to attack people.

03:04:22.000 You have to use ad hominems.

03:04:24.000 It's the only way you can get anything off.

03:04:25.000 And then you try to get that person emotional and trap them.

03:04:28.000 So why don't they change their opinion then?

03:04:31.000 It's a good question.

03:04:31.000 Because if you're ideologically captured, especially if you're on the left, like it's a very clear ideology and there's like real blowback for deviating from it.

03:04:41.000 As we know, right?

03:04:41.000 Yeah.

03:04:42.000 Because the moment you say, well, you're no longer on the left anyway.

03:04:47.000 Well, a lot of people have been kicked out of it.

03:04:49.000 A lot of people have been pushed into some weird quasi homeless land.

03:04:55.000 Well, that's how we all ended up as like right-wing.

03:04:57.000 It was like, fuck off with this shit.

03:04:58.000 Yeah, fuck off with this shit.

03:05:00.000 You know, when I, 20 years ago, all the stuff that we talk about, it wasn't just not right-wing.

03:05:07.000 No one questioned.

03:05:10.000 Do you remember 25 years ago, people running around going, we need an open border?

03:05:15.000 Right.

03:05:15.000 Right?

03:05:16.000 Or like, you can change your sex by just going labra, cadabra.

03:05:19.000 Right.

03:05:19.000 No one said that.

03:05:20.000 And so we weren't right-wing for like going, that's crazy.

03:05:20.000 Right.

03:05:24.000 You know, the most bizarre thing is watching all these kind of left-wing lesbian feminists be described as right-wing and get it.

03:05:24.000 I know.

03:05:31.000 She's kicked out of J.K. Rowling as a master.

03:05:37.000 There's a journalist called Julie Bindle.

03:05:39.000 He used to write The Guardian, one of the most left-wing journalists.

03:05:42.000 And she's lesbian and she criticized like, and she was like the trans movement.

03:05:46.000 That was it.

03:05:47.000 Out the door.

03:05:48.000 It doesn't matter what you've done before.

03:05:50.000 It doesn't matter you've done all this incredible work with women in female prisons.

03:05:54.000 Well, it's because it's a cult.

03:05:55.000 I mean, it's essentially like a religious ideology.

03:05:58.000 Like they will not take any heretics, like anybody that deviates from whatever their doctrine is.

03:06:06.000 Like, you're out.

03:06:07.000 You're out forever.

03:06:08.000 And that scares people.

03:06:09.000 So that's one of the reasons why they're willing to comply and follow some of this goofy shit and say, no one's illegal on stolen land.

03:06:17.000 What's interesting is it doesn't happen on the right nearly the same way.

03:06:20.000 Like you can see it now.

03:06:21.000 The right is engaged in a fierce debate internally.

03:06:26.000 And people fucking argue and they hash it out.

03:06:29.000 And then they go have a beer afterwards.

03:06:31.000 I think they're doing it just the same way.

03:06:33.000 Just the same.

03:06:34.000 I think it's a bio.

03:06:35.000 I think it's a human thing.

03:06:36.000 Yeah.

03:06:37.000 I think there's people on the right that do it just the same way.

03:06:39.000 There's people that call people out for not being MAGA enough.

03:06:43.000 It's just like right now the whole thing's in turmoil, whereas there's not really the same kind of turmoil on the left where there's internal debate.

03:06:50.000 The turmoil on the left is the left versus the right.

03:06:53.000 The turmoil on the right right now, I think there's a lot of people right versus right.

03:06:58.000 And they're trying to find out like, and I think there's a lot of people that don't believe what they're saying either.

03:07:03.000 They're just trying to find a thing that aligns with the biggest audience.

03:07:07.000 I think that's definitely happening.

03:07:08.000 I also think, though, internal debate within a big, broad church movement is a good thing because what you're arguing about is like, what is the right direction?

03:07:17.000 Yep.

03:07:18.000 And I do think that is more healthy.

03:07:20.000 I think working out what it is that if you're on the right, we believe.

03:07:28.000 I'm not on the right, but as I see that, I do think that's a healthy thing to do because you're arguing about the direction of that movement.

03:07:34.000 And I think that's much healthier than what happens on the left, where it's just like, well, if you don't agree with this wacky idea that's far, far out there, then you're no longer part of this.

03:07:43.000 But I think the good thing about these debates is it exposes that.

03:07:47.000 And anybody who's objective, especially anybody that is, you know, a swing voter or anybody who's in the middle of all this, which is a lot of people, a lot of people.

03:07:56.000 Most people, I think, right?

03:07:58.000 Yeah, most people are kind of in the middle on most political issues.

03:08:01.000 They get to see how crazy some of this shit is and it makes them less likely to follow.

03:08:07.000 You know, but it's also as well from a neutral perspective.

03:08:11.000 And I mentioned the point about I want a strong left.

03:08:15.000 I want a strong left which has got good ideas about how to tackle things which are really important, like inequality, like the cost of living.

03:08:22.000 How do we make it that people can actually have a better standard of life?

03:08:27.000 Where if a woman wants to stay at home with her kids, she can do that, which then have to go out and have to work and put the kids in daycare, which then leads to a whole host of problems.

03:08:38.000 How can we have a better world for ordinary people, which is what the left always used to be?

03:08:44.000 We need a strong left to then challenge the right so that the center becomes a more fertile ground.

03:08:49.000 And if we don't have that, if we have these crazy loons on the left, then what we have is a right which will come to dominate, which I don't think is good for society as a whole.

03:08:59.000 I'm going to be honest with you.

03:09:00.000 No, it's never good if one party, left or right, is completely dominant.

03:09:06.000 It's not good.

03:09:07.000 You need checks.

03:09:08.000 Yeah.

03:09:09.000 And, you know, the right has its share of crazies too, as we've been talking about.

03:09:09.000 Right.

03:09:12.000 100%.

03:09:13.000 Praise Jesus.

03:09:15.000 All right.

03:09:15.000 We've got to wrap this up.

03:09:16.000 Gentlemen, I love you guys.

03:09:17.000 Very quickly.

03:09:18.000 Oh, your book.

03:09:19.000 Yeah, I've got a book.

03:09:19.000 It's out there.

03:09:20.000 It's called Uneducated My Life as a Teacher and Why You Should Never Become One.

03:09:25.000 And Never is in Bold.

03:09:27.000 An inspiring story.

03:09:28.000 Francis Foster.

03:09:29.000 I love you guys.

03:09:29.000 All right.

03:09:31.000 Thank you so much, man.

03:09:32.000 Bye, everybody.

03:09:36.000 Bye

The Joe Rogan Experience - March 11, 2026

Joe Rogan Experience #2466 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

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