00:01:22.000And I never understood why until many years later I realized that I have something called Gilbert syndrome, which is a mutation of a liver enzyme, and you have no recovery time.
00:02:54.000Maybe the move is just make yourself do things very lightly throughout the day just to keep your bone mass and all that good stuff that we lose when we get older.
00:04:29.000It's style, and it's also the intonation.
00:04:33.000Like, if you did like I did, I transitioned from classical violin when I knew I wasn't going to do that as a career into bluegrass fiddle and banjo.
00:04:43.000So, I actually ended up playing 25 years, the last five years being bluegrass.
00:04:48.000And so, there, I actually had to learn not to play that well.
00:04:53.000Like, it sounds better for bluegrass if you're a little bit off tune and you're not holding it right and it's Authentic.
00:05:45.000If you heard one of her songs, I'm sure you would know it.
00:05:47.000If you made me name a fiddler, I would say, well, The Devil Went Down to Georgia was the first time, like, America really understood, like, popular culture, like, the fiddle got introduced.
00:06:31.000Okay, so I did that for 20 years or so, and then in the middle of college, I decided, I think I want to get a job where I could use my mind instead of my body.
00:06:41.000So I switched into electrical engineering.
00:06:45.000Because I like to take stuff apart and I used to make things in high school.
00:06:50.000So then I didn't know what I wanted to do after I got my degree, so I went on to get a master's in electrical engineering.
00:06:56.000And then I didn't want to be an electrical engineer anymore, so I got a PhD in experimental psychology.
00:07:02.000And so it sounds like flipping back and forth between lots of different things, and it kind of is, but you'll see that my career is a little bit like a game show in that you're presented with this is what you could do.
00:07:16.000Like forever, or you can choose door number two.
00:07:20.000And I almost always chose door number two because I would do this for a while and say, I sort of understand that now.
00:07:30.000So, as a senior in college, I learned about this place called the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which was started by Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was the sixth man on the moon.
00:07:43.000And on the way back to the Earth, he had a mystical experience.
00:07:47.000And so today, a lot of people who go into space talk about the overview effect.
00:07:52.000And he was one of the first to talk about it openly, even though all of the other astronauts had it.
00:07:58.000it expresses itself in different ways.
00:08:00.000So people generally will turn from whatever they were, it's a transformative experience, and they become different.
00:08:07.000And so in his way of expressing that after the mystical experience and thinking, what in the world is that?
00:08:14.000Because he felt one with the universe, literally, he decided to create this institute that would study what he had been studying for outer space, but for inner space, to explore inner space.
00:08:27.000So I remember in college reading about this new institute and their motto was exploring the frontiers of consciousness.
00:08:36.000And I thought, that sounds like something I want to do.
00:08:40.000But there wasn't any place to do that other than this one institute.
00:08:44.000So I always had in the back of my mind that that's where I want to end up.
00:09:33.000A desire to dismiss it, like a desire to define the world in much clearer terms where it's maybe ego driven, you're in control of your own destiny, and then there's certain factors that are out of your control, and just this is how it is, and this is life, deal with it.
00:09:49.000And all this mystical woo woo magic bullshit that people have been talking about for some strange reason for thousands of years, we just dismiss.
00:09:57.000And we dismiss it under the narrative of science.
00:10:31.000You could chalk it off to coincidence when you think about a person and you haven't thought about them forever and all of a sudden they call you.
00:11:44.000That's what attracted me to the rest of my career.
00:11:49.000Exactly for the same reason you just said, that people have experiences, oftentimes they feel pretty strange, and so they start looking for, well, what is that?
00:11:58.000If you go to a conventional science spokesperson, they will echo back exactly what you're saying.
00:12:04.000It's coincidence, it's frailty of memory, all of that stuff.
00:12:09.000I learned early on, even in college, that there is a branch of science that has studied these things.
00:12:17.000I mean, it's been going on since the late 1800s that the scientists have been interested in these kinds of phenomena.
00:12:22.000And science is really, really good at taking even strange subjective experiences and figuring out is that a coincidence or is that what is that?
00:12:35.000So and it partially came out of reading a lot of science fiction.
00:12:39.000Your science fiction is saturated with these kinds of stories where the element of the story is revolving around some kind of psychic or noetic thing.
00:13:09.000And generally, if you have a topic that people are paying attention to like that and are very popular, it's because something is resonating.
00:13:18.000Like if it was so strange that nobody even had a way of thinking about it, it wouldn't be popular.
00:13:25.000But it is, and it's perennially popular.
00:13:27.000So I took the science fiction interest, and as even a younger kid, about fairy tales, which is saturated with these things too.
00:13:36.000And I thought, well, I wonder if that's real.
00:13:38.000But then you kind of get shuttled into a scientific career.
00:13:42.000And one thing that happens for fledgling engineers and scientists, and for a lot of other academics, is that you're being taught a set of assumptions about the way that the world works.
00:13:55.000And the thing is, you're not taught that that is a set of assumptions.
00:13:59.000You take it for granted after a while because after you go through college for 20 plus years and no one ever mentions that we're working under a set of assumptions, a materialism, and no one ever talks about the philosophy of science, which is all about studying the assumptions and are they correct.
00:14:17.000Once you do start studying the philosophy of science, you find out that there's lots of different ways of understanding reality.
00:14:24.000And so there's the whole materialistic side, which is really, really good at explaining aspects of the physical world.
00:14:31.000It gives us these kinds of technologies.
00:14:33.000But it doesn't explain subjective experience at all.
00:14:38.000And so that's like an existing number one mystery in science today because you have to challenge the idea that materialism is all there is.
00:15:21.000And it was the beginning of figuring out ways of using experimental science to be able to study these things under controlled conditions.
00:15:30.000And the word control is important because it means You exclude coincidence by the design, and you exclude leakage of information, you exclude all kinds of things.
00:16:22.000Today, people have to be strictly isolated.
00:16:24.000Neither can know what the target is that they're trying to transfer to the other person.
00:16:29.000And we do lots and lots of replications with lots of people.
00:16:33.000And so that then forms a body of evidence where it becomes extremely difficult to think of what the flaw might be.
00:16:41.000And in fact, if you ask skeptics about it who know the literature, their usual response now is either.
00:16:47.000There's no plausible flaw that they can identify because a lot of time has been spent to figure out what might be a flaw.
00:16:55.000And the second response, which is more recent now, is we're not even going to look at the evidence because we know it's impossible, which is no longer a scientific argument.
00:17:08.000Well, it's really silly when you consider the intelligence agencies have spent an enormous amount of money and a considerable amount of time studying remote viewing.
00:17:16.000Why would they invest that much time in nonsense?
00:17:29.000If you listen to the stories of the guy like Hal Put Off and all these different people that have been involved in these remote viewing experiments, they had actionable data that they derived specifically from remote viewing.
00:17:50.000We had an experiment on a television show that I did where we had this guy who claimed to be a remote viewer remote view this area and it was off.
00:17:59.000But it was also under duress with cameras.
00:18:01.000Is that the state of mind that you want to be in when you're trying to remote view?
00:20:05.000Plan start at just $25 a month, or get our premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.
00:20:24.000So after I got my doctorate, I started working at Bell Laboratories.
00:20:28.000So it was the biggest laboratory in the world at the time, it was still the Bell System.
00:20:34.000And because I was interested in these kinds of things, for some of my time at Bell Labs, I started doing little psychic experiments involving mind-matter interaction and also involving precognition.
00:20:46.000So there's an ongoing link here that goes back to the Institute of Endoetic Sciences in a strange way.
00:20:54.000Edgar Mitchell gave the first money to SRI International, which is where Hal Putoff and Russ Targ was, to do remote viewing studies.
00:21:07.000And it brought SRI and a bunch of other places, including Bell Labs.
00:21:11.000So when I was working at the labs, I knew that there had been people who had seen some of the stuff that Geller did.
00:21:17.000And I was doing these little psychic things.
00:21:19.000So I asked for permission to be able to present some of the work I was doing at an annual conference of the Parapsychological Association, which is an affiliate of the largest scientific organization in the United States, the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
00:21:35.000So, many people don't know that the Parapsychological Association is one of the 200 some affiliates of the AAAS.
00:21:42.000It's a legitimate scientific organization.
00:21:47.000I asked for permission, and I got permission not only to give my presentation at the conference, but to use the Bell Labs imprimatur.
00:21:56.000So, I was giving this as some guy from Bell Labs talking to this audience.
00:22:02.000Unbeknownst to me, there were a few people in the audience who came up afterwards, and one of them said, If there was an opening, would you be interested in joining the Stargate program?
00:22:14.000And so that was an offer I couldn't refuse.
00:22:17.000That's one of these cases you have this door or you have that door.
00:22:20.000Well, that door looked really interesting because it was known at the time that there were people at SRI doing this sort of thing, but the classified portions were a rumor.
00:22:29.000Like nobody knew what was really going on.
00:23:15.000No, it's top secret SEI special access program, which means there's literally a book that you have to sign and you can see all the other people who have signed that book.
00:23:26.000who have signed that book, special access means even if you have a top secret clearance, you cannot know about this place.
00:24:14.000And one of the main areas was, what's the difference between someone like Joe McMonocle, who's a superstar in this area?
00:24:22.000Why is he any different than anybody else?
00:24:25.000Because, like, when I first met the Ingo Swan and Joe and a bunch of other people, They were so different than my stereotype of Madame Zodiac that they like, I say, you got to be kidding.
00:24:53.000Now, there may be some background about the people themselves, but in terms of finding out something that we could use to select because The Army and others were interested in getting lots of other people who would be talented too.
00:26:35.000In the psych department, because that's where I had my PhD, but to lead a program among many departments, one of which was the Pearlab.
00:26:45.000And the idea was in order to have any chance of beginning to understand this stuff, you need to pull in every discipline because it's way too big.
00:26:55.000It's too complicated for a single discipline.
00:26:58.000So we had the philosophy department and the psychology department and civil engineering and the Pearlab and a bunch of other departments.
00:27:07.000My job was to sort of corral it together.
00:27:10.000to create multidisciplinary research projects.
00:27:11.000And I was told on day one that's impossible.
00:27:23.000And the answer is that in the academic world, you succeed within silos.
00:27:28.000You know an enormous amount about a very particular kind of topic.
00:27:33.000Like, even in the psych department there, you have cognitive psychologists, perceptual psychologists, social psychologists, and on and on and on.
00:27:40.000They don't even talk to each other because it's outside of your discipline, outside the little silo.
00:27:46.000My job was to sort of mash it together, and it was Ridiculously complicated.
00:28:13.000Because everything of value in the academic world is in your silo.
00:28:18.000So if you're trying to work across silos, again, even within the same department, Social psychology and perceptual psychology might not even talk to each other.
00:28:27.000Their offices are right next to each other.
00:28:30.000But that's simply the way that it's the same.
00:28:31.000Yeah, but it also sort of makes sense when you think about it.
00:28:34.000To become an expert in something takes 20 years from the university and then the rest of your academic career just to keep up with it.
00:28:43.000So it kind of makes sense that you don't want to start turning your attention off to something else because you're not in that department anymore.
00:28:49.000So it's a problem and it's always been there.
00:28:55.000Well, it seems like there should be a way to fix that.
00:28:57.000The ultimate goal should be whatever we're all working on collectively should benefit mankind.
00:29:02.000If you're in the psychology industry, which you are, if you're teaching psychology, if you're working on psychology, you should want to get involved in this.
00:29:13.000The fact that they're all siloed off like that seems insane.
00:29:16.000So the approach that's sometimes taken in the academic world is to create a center, Center for the Study of Fill in the Blank.
00:29:21.000That brings in people from different disciplines, and then they're kind of forced together.
00:29:25.000But these people from different disciplines probably are already working on important stuff to them, and this is taking away from their time.
00:29:32.000It could be, except that depending on the nature of the work, it may be something that requires another discipline.
00:29:39.000So you might have somebody in computer science who's working on that, and then you have somebody in psychology who's interested in the human side, like how do you connect the computer and the people?
00:29:48.000Well, there's a sub-discipline called human factors.
00:29:51.000That's where I was working in Bell Labs because I had engineering and psychology.
00:29:55.000So, you kind of mash those two together, and then you could actually learn some new stuff that's of value to both.
00:30:01.000And also, that's how you create new disciplines.
00:30:03.000That's how the discipline of neuroscience began.
00:30:05.000So, you go back, now it's more like 60 to 70 years ago, somebody noticed that you have all these people in biology and all these people looking at cells and people looking at things having to do with the nervous system that were all different disciplines.
00:30:23.000So, a large foundation came along and said, I think we need to create a discipline of the neurosciences.
00:30:30.000And they threw enough money at it to bring people together and that formed a new discipline.
00:30:36.000So I work in the area of consciousness studies, which is only now starting to become its own discipline.
00:30:43.000Because before that, it was maybe a few philosophers interested in it and anesthesiologists and that's it.
00:31:07.000So this is a way of taking results of individual experiments that are similar to each other, like telepathy experiments, and putting them all together with a statistical method to see whether independent people are able to replicate the same thing.
00:31:30.000One is, if this is really real in a scientific sense, then other independent people ought to be able to do the same experiment and get the same result.
00:31:39.000The other part is if you do have a lot of people doing the same experiment, then what is the overall result?
00:31:45.000It's like one gigantic experiment now.
00:31:48.000So I did a number of meta-analyses, ended up writing a book on it that nobody wanted to buy, so just sat there.
00:31:56.000And then I was doing experiments on precognition as part of my job.
00:32:00.000And because of my engineering background, I was using the latest version of machine learning at the time, which was neural networks, and applying it to the data from the Pearlab.
00:32:12.000To see if, you know, when you do an experiment involving mind matter interaction, usually use a random number generator and you ask somebody, this thing is, you tell them this is going to push out a whole bunch of bits, random bits, and I want you to make more one bits than zero bits.
00:32:35.000So this is three different kinds of tasks in one session.
00:32:40.000And so what they were finding was that in general, if you run a lot of people in this kind of task, Yes, their intention makes the bits go in the direction that you want.
00:32:50.000So you aim high, it goes up, aim low, it goes down, so on.
00:32:54.000So the question then is not everybody can do that.
00:33:21.000So I started using neural networks to see if I could train a neural network to tell who was doing the task based on how the random bits were working.
00:33:59.000And I did it for three years and then I decided I don't want to do that anymore.
00:34:04.000So I went back to industry, but I specifically told the people I was interviewing with, I want to pursue this.
00:34:11.000Like this is the beginning of a technology that will have a machine identify who you are and your intention, kind of like Neuralink, except there's no connection.
00:34:25.000So, I did end up working for a company outside of Washington, D.C., where part of my work was doing exactly that.
00:34:32.000We're using more advanced neural networks with random number generators and got to the point where we're about to set a patent for this device because it worked.
00:34:43.000And the head of the organization at the time was a retired general who had a buddy who was an admiral, and he said, The Navy's interested in this, kind of for obvious reasons.
00:34:54.000They want ways of communicating with submarines.
00:34:58.000So at that point, we're like right on the edge of doing that, and we get bought by another company.
00:35:04.000And the new company said, You're not going to work on that anymore.
00:35:08.000So the wheels internally started, it was like golden handcuffs.
00:36:52.000So I went to the University of Edinburgh for about a year, and I worked on this project to finish the automated telepathy system.
00:37:00.000And they've run many, many, many people through that system by now.
00:37:04.000While I was there, I finished that pretty quickly.
00:37:10.000I started to develop the presentiment experiment.
00:37:13.000You had Julia Mossbridge on the show recently.
00:37:16.000I think she was talking about this experiment where you can see if somebody's body is reacting to something in the future that is unanticipated, that's random.
00:37:31.000Let me tell you a story about The kind of effect that gave me the idea to do this experiment.
00:37:42.000So, the usual way that people talk about it is that you drive to work the same way every day, thousands of times, and you have a traffic light that you're coming up to, and it's green, and normally you'd start accelerating towards it because you want to get through the light.
00:37:58.000Something tells you today there's something wrong.
00:38:01.000I don't know what it is, but I'm going to slow down.
00:38:04.000And you keep slowing down, the cars behind you are beeping and saying, What's going on?
00:38:08.000You get almost up to the intersection, and a truck. blast through their red light and you would have been hit broadside if you didn't slow down.
00:38:16.000So you have this momentary shock of relief realizing that you just saved your life by paying attention to that little voice inside your head.
00:38:23.000So I thought, okay, let's simulate that in the laboratory.
00:38:27.000Well, we can't put people in danger, but we can do emotional tests like that.
00:38:33.000So you wire somebody up looking at skin conductance or pupil dilation or brain waves, all kinds of things in your nervous system.
00:38:41.000And then you just record that continually, tell them to press a button, and then they're going to see something on a screen.
00:38:48.000So it could be a very calm picture, or it could be a very emotional picture.
00:38:56.000It could be a very negative picture, like a picture of surgery or an explosion or something, or it could be a positive, like a smiling baby.
00:39:05.000So, there are two different valences, they're called.
00:39:08.000And you don't know which is going to come up because a true random number generator is the thing that decides after you press the button, then it decides what it's going to show you.
00:39:17.000So, nobody knows in advance, including the experimenter.
00:39:20.000So, I set up an experiment to do that.
00:39:23.000And by this time, I already left Edinburgh.
00:39:31.000And I had an offer from Oak Ridge National Labs, which would have put me back in the classified world.
00:39:36.000Or this other opportunity, which was to work at University of Nevada funded by Robert Bigelow, who's probably best known for the OSAP program.
00:39:57.000So, one of the very first things I set up then was first of all, I want to continue working on this neural network or machine learning method for making a technology of intention.
00:40:44.000So, that difference beforehand we call the presentiment effect.
00:40:49.000It's your body somehow or unconscious knowing what you're about to see.
00:40:53.000Just like approaching a light and slowing down, something is telling you something.
00:40:59.000So we did that experiment, and I told this to one of the guys at the center I was working at, and he told me a story which is far more interesting than not going through a red light.
00:41:15.000So he used to go hunting with his buddies, and they had a whole bunch of guns.
00:41:19.000His favorite gun was a six-shot revolver, a double-action revolver.
00:41:25.000And so the way that he would take all the bullets out, he'd clean the whole thing out, and he'd put in one, two, three, four, five bullets and leave the hammer over the empty chamber.
00:41:33.000So it wouldn't get jostled accidentally.
00:41:56.000His pistol wasn't used, and a bunch of other guns weren't used, but they do what you should not do after you go hunting, which is starting to drink.
00:42:05.000So they're all getting a little bit too tipsy and drinking too much, and a fight breaks out between two people there.
00:42:12.000One of them picks up my friend's gun, points it point blank at somebody else, like right in their face.
00:42:19.000And my friend is now looking with horror because the trigger's getting pulled.
00:42:23.000The hammer's going back, the cylinder is turning, and he's trying to intervene now.
00:42:27.000He steps right in front of the gun, and it goes click the hammer hit.
00:42:39.000So he realized with horror at that moment that if he had not taken out that bullet, he would be shot in the head.
00:42:45.000And so afterwards he said, everyone has a bullet with their name on it, and mine is in a safety deposit box, and I know exactly where it is and it's not coming out.
00:42:56.000So that's a real life version of this, which is two weeks in advance.
00:43:01.000In the laboratory, we can only look seconds in advance.
00:43:04.000Also, you should have the intuition and not go hunting and drinking with psychos that are willing to shoot somebody in the face over an argument.
00:43:17.000So that see, this is where we want to go in these kinds of experiments.
00:43:20.000You need like real life stuff that you can actually test in a controlled way in the laboratory.
00:43:25.000But there's all kinds of ethical reasons obviously why you can't do that.
00:43:29.000But I'm pretty sure that if we're able to get something at that level in the laboratory, we would have much, much stronger results than we currently do.
00:43:38.000Now, when it comes to things like remote viewing and being able to be open and being able to actually Pull it off and actually remote view things that you can prove.
00:43:53.000What is the state of mind these people are trying to achieve?
00:43:58.000And what is the protocol for achieving that state of mind?
00:44:02.000It depends on whether you're naturally talented or not.
00:44:05.000So, Joe McMonocle and a few others that I know, if you were to ask them at breakfast, can you remote view what I have in a hidden folder over here?
00:44:21.000They would continue eating and tell you the answer immediately.
00:44:24.000So for them, it doesn't take much at all.
00:44:26.000And in fact, what Joe would say, and I have some pictures from what Joe had done, Joe would say that if he knows in the afternoon he's going to do a remote viewing, he'll get all the information in the morning, like instantly.
00:44:41.000And then he has to wait until the whole thing plays out, but it's like, bang, you got it.
00:44:47.000So it's a matter internally of simply knowing, I need to get this information, and it happens immediately.
00:44:51.000For people who don't have that natural talent, you go through training where and by the way, almost everybody can do this, but it does require some training now.
00:45:01.000So for an average person, the training typically is to not name an impression, which is really tough.
00:45:11.000So you have a target, which may be somewhere in the world, maybe a person somewhere, maybe in an envelope, something like that.
00:45:18.000You're taught you will have something come to mind.
00:45:24.000You have no idea what it is, but you know that there is a target you're going to have to describe.
00:45:29.000So, name the first thing that comes to mind, but not without naming it.
00:45:32.000So, you start little scribbles, and then you have more complicated scribbles, and you start adding feelings and senses that are associated with these scribbles.
00:45:42.000Eventually, you get to the point where it's kind of all gels together, and then you get a coherent image.
00:45:47.000The problem is that if you tell somebody, I'm going to show you a picture in 20 minutes that you don't know what it is, and you say, Okay, well, just imagine what you're going to get, and you get a flash of yellow.
00:45:58.000You're instantly going to start thinking of bananas.
00:46:01.000And once that happens, you can't not think of bananas anymore.
00:46:38.000So, one picture after the other of experiments by Joe and by a bunch of other people who are not as well known, they basically give almost a veridical drawing of the target.
00:46:52.000And these are targets that are elsewhere in the world.
00:46:54.000These are targets that are in envelopes.
00:46:56.000These are targets that are in skiffs, all different kinds of targets where nothing about the target is known.
00:47:03.000Like, I will tell you a five digit number which stands for the target.
00:47:08.000And so all you have is a five digit number.
00:47:10.000Now give me a description of what I'm going to show you in two hours.
00:47:37.000There are theories about it, and the theory requires.
00:47:40.000probably stepping away from materialism as the only model of reality.
00:47:45.000So there are other models which allow for consciousness, whatever that is, because we don't know that either, but consciousness seems to have a non-local quality.
00:47:54.000So it's the same kind of non-locality that you talk about in quantum mechanics.
00:47:59.000So quantum mechanics has entanglement, which are non-local connections between things.
00:48:04.000It is also through time, so connections through space and time.
00:48:48.000So that is like a more comprehensive way of understanding what reality is like.
00:48:52.000Do you think this is an emerging quality in human beings or do you think this is an atrophied quality that we used to all have before the development of written language, books, media, all these different things that sort of take away this quiet communication that people probably had with each other?
00:49:14.000We believe wolves have that with each other.
00:50:05.000And so most animals, plants, insects maybe have consciousness in some form.
00:50:11.000And if that consciousness is similar to ours, it is non local.
00:50:15.000Do you think it's an emerging thing or do you think it's a thing that we've always had?
00:50:20.000I think that we are shaped as humans by evolution to not pay attention to the there and then.
00:50:28.000Because if we were paying attention to there and then a lot, then you may not notice that there's a tiger in front of you who's about to eat you.
00:50:35.000So if you look over the long span of development of whatever it is we are, people who are walking around thinking about Pluto a million years ago would have been pruned out of existence.
00:50:49.000So only certain kinds of people historically were able to do that.
00:50:54.000And the shaman, as part of a tribe, were extremely important because they knew the food would be 10 miles away that way next week.
00:51:03.000But the shaman typically could not take care of themselves very well.
00:51:06.000Their minds were off in Pluto, and so the tribe took care of them.
00:51:12.000And so today we don't have that very much.
00:51:15.000We're distracted by everything, and we don't have the same kinds of needs that they would have had 10, 20,000 years ago, except in some indigenous societies.
00:51:29.000So one time I gave a talk for the Australian government.
00:51:32.000There was a whole bunch of ministers there and people in the military.
00:51:35.000And I was talking about this sort of stuff.
00:51:37.000And unbeknownst to me, one of the ministers was representative of the indigenous people there.
00:51:43.000So I finished this long talk on telepathy.
00:51:46.000And she came up afterwards and said, Well, we've known this stuff for thousands of years.
00:51:53.000They would use it, like in the outback.
00:51:55.000There was no phones, but somehow they were in communications, part of the culture.
00:51:59.000So they didn't have the distractions and they had a need.
00:52:03.000So you can imagine a more or less isolated culture for a long period of time.
00:52:08.000That didn't have tigers immediately always trying to capture them, they had the need to be able to communicate that way.
00:52:14.000We don't have the need anymore, so it atrophies.
00:52:19.000So it atrophies, and so with things like remote viewing, do you think this is almost like a relearning of a skill that people had at one point in time?
00:52:54.000It's the perfect season for adventures, but it can also be pretty exhausting, juggling chaotic schedules, and trying to make the most of summer.
00:53:02.000That's why it's important to take a moment for you.
00:53:06.000Go out for a weekend without planning anything and just have fun, or relax at home.
00:53:12.000Or if you're really struggling, try therapy with BetterHelp.
00:53:17.000With a network of over 30,000 quality therapists, they can connect you with the right one just like they have for millions already across the globe.
00:53:27.000Together, you can work out what you need and how you can enjoy summer to the fullest.
00:53:34.000You don't have to say yes to everything this summer.
00:54:25.000The other thing, of course, is did you ever have any experiences beforehand that suggest that maybe you had these experiences?
00:54:32.000Well, Joe did, and his sister did, too.
00:54:35.000So there suggests, again, some kind of a familial genetic underpinning for why people have these experiences.
00:54:43.000So I will continue the story because I'm going to intersect with this genetic part in a minute.
00:54:49.000So I'm at UNLV doing all kinds of interesting stuff.
00:54:55.000Somehow the New York Times learns about what I'm doing and they think it's an interesting character story for a parapsychologist to be working in Las Vegas because Las Vegas is sometimes called the largest parapsychology lab in the world.
00:55:11.000You have a whole bunch of people trying to mentally influence more or less random systems like they are all the time.
00:55:18.000It's an interesting way to look at Vegas.
00:55:23.000You toss the dice, you want a certain result.
00:55:25.000Well, we do that in the laboratory except we don't have a lot of money associated with it.
00:55:29.000I was able to actually get data from one of the casinos, the smaller casinos, because the general manager was interested in what I was doing.
00:55:38.000So I said, well, could I get all the data as much as you have on jackpots for slot machines and also the table games?
00:55:45.000And a miracle occurred, and she said, yeah.
00:55:48.000So she gave us the data, was able to analyze it, and among other things, found that jackpots happened more often and payouts happened were larger.
00:55:58.000And table games did better between one or plus or minus one day from the full moon, which, by the way, matches magical lore.
00:56:09.000I mean, all kinds of things are related to when the full moon happens, religious effects and all kinds of things.
00:56:15.000So I thought, well, that's interesting.
00:56:17.000More jackpots happen plus or minus the day of the full moon.
00:56:21.000And so I said to the general manager, maybe this is something you don't want to tell people because they'll all start coming in the full moon.
00:57:09.000So I published that book that caught the attention of people at an organization called Interval Research, which was funded by Paul Allen, the co-founder of Microsoft.
00:57:21.000So Paul Allen was interested in doing what he called developing the wired world.
00:57:27.000This would have been started in 1990 as a 10-year project.
00:57:34.000to figure out, given that the internet was going to be a gigantic thing, what do we do with it?
00:57:40.000So this was people that were poached from Apple and from Xerox PARC and the MIT lab and all lots of places.
00:57:50.000And so I was invited to do a sci research program there with a budget that was 10 times larger than I had at UNLV and a salary that was three times larger.
00:58:00.000So I thought, yeah, that's the door that I want.
00:58:03.000So at Interval, everything was proprietary.
00:58:06.000because it was all leading into patents that would eventually create things.
00:58:11.000And so some of the things we take for granted now were developed there.
00:58:46.000So a couple of us then left to create a nonprofit which we called the Boundary Institute which would continue the research that we were doing.
00:58:57.000And then that lasted for about a year because there was the dot-com crash and we couldn't raise money to keep ourselves afloat.
00:59:05.000I was invited then to join the Institute of Noetic Sciences where I've been now for the last 25 years.
00:59:11.000So the circle here is here I am in college and looking at this place studying the frontiers of consciousness.
00:59:19.000And that's where I end up, and I've been there ever since.
00:59:22.000And no new doors have opened that have attracted me.
00:59:26.000So I'm there and I've been having great fun at the Institute.
00:59:30.000I interrupted you when we were talking about numbers being associated with targets, and you were expanding on actionable data.
00:59:38.000Like, what was the most impressive thing to you that you saw that people achieved with remote viewing?
00:59:46.000Do you mean from an operational sense or?
00:59:48.000I mean, just for people listening, like what would be.
00:59:52.000The most spectacular example of something that couldn't be achieved in the other way?
00:59:57.000Well, one of the things was actually admitted by President Carter way back when, when they found a bomber, a nuclear bomber that landed somewhere in Africa, which could not be seen from above because of the canopy of all the.
01:00:14.000And nobody knew where it actually landed.
01:00:17.000There was a bomb on board that they did not want anybody else to get.
01:00:21.000And so they asked one of the remote viewers.
01:00:24.000In fact, this one of the they asked several of them, but one of them specialized in location, which is very difficult for remote viewing.
01:00:31.000Like if you look at a map and you say, well, you know, put a dot on the map for where it is, that turns out to not be very easy, even for remote viewers.
01:00:39.000But this one lady was very, very good at that.
01:00:46.000map dowser so you get a big piece of blank you're saying dowser like those people that walk around with the stick to find water yeah except map dowsing is you have a blank sheet of paper which is linked by association to an You don't want to give anything away, so you don't use a real map.
01:01:04.000Use a piece of paper which has little X's on it that map onto an actual map.
01:01:09.000So we asked this lady, her name was Fran, put a mark on the map of where this bomber landed.
01:01:15.000Of course, she doesn't know it's Africa.
01:02:00.000And Carter was the folklore is that Carter was briefed about something having to do with alien life, and he was so upset that he started weeping.
01:02:32.000Well, you know, that was the giant rumor that was going around recently that there was going to be some big disclosure by the White House and that a bunch of pastors had been briefed about this to try to talk to their flock.
01:03:06.000And the UFO business, UAP, is very similar in some respects to the psychic side, both in that there's an enormous amount of misinformation.
01:03:17.000That has been pushed by government, by other places to deflect attention.
01:03:22.000There are lots of examples of that, which I mean, because of what we know now about the UFO thing, it's relatively easy to see how that could have happened for the Psy business as well.
01:03:40.000Just one example I go to the Naval War College and I've given a number of lectures, and one of them is on telepathy.
01:03:48.000How do we know that telepathy actually exists?
01:03:51.000There's a bunch of different ways of knowing that.
01:03:53.000And so afterwards, two sub commanders come up.
01:04:52.000That's very important to know, not simply that it happens, but it is happening when the submarines are at a classified depth, which means at least 300 meters, probably more, below the surface of the ocean, where it's extremely difficult to get any kind of message there.
01:05:12.000What were the events at home that were bad?
01:05:14.000They didn't tell me the events at home, but it was Personal events, like in someone's family?
01:05:19.000Something in their family, something was going wrong, which turned out to be correct.
01:05:24.000So one thing is, yes, it tells us something that's important to know from a scientific perspective because they are not reachable by ordinary means.
01:05:31.000That's the whole point about having a submarine.
01:05:33.000Very difficult to know where they are and get messages to them.
01:05:37.000The other thing is that people who are selected to be submariners are psychologically extremely stable.
01:05:43.000They're not prone to flights of fantasy.
01:05:59.000So it means that this happens to ordinary people, in this case in an altered state of awareness, namely in a dream state, but nevertheless they got it and there were no false positives.
01:06:09.000So I was a little – whenever I give a talk to a new type of group, especially in the military, always thinking these guys are – they think I'm nuts because I'm telling them stuff that shouldn't exist by any conventional perspective.
01:06:38.000That not only are they in life and death situations and that's where these things tend to bubble up, but also they had to trust their intuition in making lots of decisions that affect other people.
01:06:50.000And they would not have risen through the ranks unless they were really, really good at it.
01:06:55.000So that's why I was not getting the kind of pushback that I expected to get.
01:07:01.000The Bell Labs connection is very interesting, too.
01:07:03.000You know, Bell Labs is also the source of myth and folklore about the Roswell crash, that they received things from the Roswell craft and back engineered it.
01:07:33.000You'd pick out the hard drive and all this jazz online, they'd build it for you.
01:07:36.000And they had a whole page of their website that was dedicated to Bell Laboratories.
01:07:43.000And Bell Laboratories being close to a military base, not because the military base was really to protect New York City, it was really to protect Bell Labs because they were working all this top secret stuff there, and that they had back engineered some stuff from the Roswell crash.
01:08:03.000I mean, after all, they invented the fiber optic.
01:08:05.000Optics and lasers and everything in modern.
01:08:08.000The fiber optic specifically was one of the things that they discussed as being something that they discovered.
01:08:14.000I mean, if you go to the to the ordinary history, you can figure out why that happened, not that it didn't involve reverse engineering anything, that there's a long history about why somebody would have gotten to the point to realize that you can do certain things with.
01:08:36.000It's fascinating when you find out that there are these very limited access programs that are beyond top secret that even the president can't find out about them.
01:08:46.000And so one of the disadvantages of a special access program is that you could be working next to somebody and are not allowed to talk about what they're doing.
01:09:51.000It was especially frustrating when I was working there because we go into the building and we're doing all kinds of interesting psychic things, and you go out of the building and it not only doesn't exist that if it ever comes up in conversation, you don't say, I can't talk about it because that would mean they know.
01:10:07.000You have to go along with the game and just agree with everybody else that it's all nonsense.
01:10:12.000It's nonsense out there, and in here we're working on it.
01:10:19.000Well, even worse, the whole point about classification is to keep secrets.
01:10:26.000We were figuring out ways that you can't keep secrets, right?
01:10:30.000I mean, the whole thing about remote viewing and telepathy and all that stuff, there are no secrets.
01:10:35.000With the right talented people, nothing can be shielded, nothing.
01:10:41.000Outside, everything is all about secrets.
01:10:43.000So one of the reasons I think that these topics still have a stigma attached to them and why there's disinformation is because imagine how this society would work if there were no secrets.
01:10:55.000Don't you think that technology is eventually taking us in that direction?
01:11:00.000Yes, but it's not going to be Neuralink.
01:11:02.000It's not going to be brain computer stuff.
01:13:18.000We still don't know exactly what it is, but something about their makeup was turning off psychic sensitivity.
01:13:26.000And so one of the people on our project was a specialist in the genetics of societies.
01:13:32.000Different societies have different genetic makeup.
01:13:36.000And he found that, to our surprise there too, that countries that were exposed to Christianity, the longer they were exposed, the more this intron sequence was there, the mutation.
01:13:48.000We started thinking, well, how does that make any sense?
01:13:52.000And then suddenly we understood the Inquisition had systematically looked for people over hundreds of years who had these abilities and then they killed them.
01:14:05.000You think about this as a non evolutionary method, but nevertheless a pruning of a portion of humanity.
01:14:13.000So they were getting rid of people who had this, and what were left over were people who had this no psychic stuff at all.
01:14:21.000So, yeah, so it's like eugenics in an opposite direction where they weren't trying to pull people for talent but get rid of the talent.
01:14:46.000So the witches were once – I mean, an awful lot of innocent people were caught up in that.
01:14:52.000But people who were known as healers, who had precognition.
01:14:56.000Of course, the church at the time was just concerned that somebody is going to come along that's going to attract our followers away from us.
01:15:17.000Outside of the church, it was not okay.
01:15:20.000And so it was a very heavy handed way of ensuring that the power would remain in the church.
01:15:26.000So by enforcing their Christian ideology, they eliminated anybody that had any alternative powers or visions or anything weird, any other kind of practices.
01:15:38.000And so the case of the Catholic saints is very interesting.
01:15:43.000Like Joseph of Cupertino was said to have levitated.
01:15:47.000And also to do by location, very psychic things.
01:15:50.000He was very lucky in a sense that he was already a priest.
01:15:58.000Lots of people, thousands of people saw him levitate.
01:16:02.000And he made basically a deal was made with the Inquisition that you now need to go to this place out in the middle of nowhere and don't show this anymore to anybody.
01:16:58.000This one, St. Teresa of Avila, a Spanish mystic who famously recorded that her levitations occurred unexpectedly during states of deep spiritual rapture.
01:17:08.000She described the sensation as a violent force lifting her up from beneath her feet and was so embarrassed by it that she instructed fellow nuns to physically hold her down.
01:18:44.000So it's like it's permeated our zeitgeist.
01:18:47.000Yes, it also, I believe that it can act as a So you haven't asked yet why, as a scientist who worked at Princeton and Bell Labs, why am I writing about magic?
01:18:58.000It's because of a couple of experiences that told me that our understanding of psychic effects now is like in a box.
01:19:06.000We generally do experiments, we get relatively small effects.
01:19:09.000They're not gigantic effects, they're not levitation.
01:19:44.000from 1961 it's this particular so i set up this i i went to a uh spoke called spoon bending party because you bent that spoon with your brain or your mind well with your consciousness or whatever it is, something?
01:19:59.000I mentally did something, but I'll show you in a minute how we did this.
01:20:02.000So the reason I did this is because I was at interval, and at the time, Russ Targ was working for me.
01:20:08.000And Russ came back from one of these parties and he said he had bent a rebar, a half-inch rebar, which that, I mean, some muscle men can do that, but you have to be pretty strong to bend a rebar and have it stay there.
01:20:32.000If you bend the neck of a spoon, which is what typically people do, a person can do that just and it's gone.
01:20:39.000So fast that you can't see it, and then you hide it and you reveal it, and it looks like you bent it.
01:20:44.000So I went to one of these parties, and I heard that there was a woman there who was able to bend the bowl of the spoon just by touching it, not by itself, but sort of touching it and moving it over.
01:20:55.000And I said, I want to see that because it's ridiculous.
01:20:57.000So I'm standing in front of this woman, and she's holding it like this.
01:21:03.000She has a thumb there and a finger here.
01:21:05.000And so I'm waiting for her to do it, and I'm mimicking her.
01:21:09.000Because I want to see how she's doing it.
01:21:29.000No, no indication, no indentation or anything.
01:21:33.000And so the person said bend it all the way.
01:21:35.000So it was halfway and I literally went and went all the way.
01:21:41.000So now I have this spoon and I'm sort of mind boggled by it because I know it wasn't force.
01:21:47.000I'm not strong enough to be able to do that.
01:21:49.000Very few people would be able to do it.
01:21:51.000So I have another spoon just like it and I'm on the plane flying home and I'm trying to do it with the spoon and I suddenly get a huge shock of fear.
01:22:02.000Because I'm in a metal tin can 30,000 feet up, and I don't know how I did it, and I don't want the wings to suddenly go, because I still don't know exactly how, but I know the metallurgy now.
01:22:16.000So it turns out that if you're holding it like that, and you can do between 50 and 70 pounds of force suddenly, like an impulse, you will cause the lattice that forms the grain boundary to momentarily soften.
01:22:32.000And then for about 20 seconds, it will be really, really soft.
01:22:36.000And at that point, you can literally just take a thumb and finger like this, which is what I did, and squish it over.
01:25:47.000And I imagined myself with my suit on with the button.
01:25:51.000And it was like some kind of weird ego thing where I felt I needed to demonstrate to the people in the audience that I can do this stuff.
01:25:58.000It was so strange because I'm not very egotistical and I'm not self aggrandizing either, but there was something about getting this stupid button that put me in a position where I felt if I don't do this, the universe will end.
01:26:14.000I mean, that kind of level of obsessiveness.
01:28:14.000Has anybody ever filmed themselves doing something like this?
01:28:18.000There are some films of people doing this.
01:28:20.000Generally what you see is it breaking.
01:28:23.000Like a spoon will break here and it'll go bleep.
01:28:26.000But again, there was a lot of research on this in the 1970s by metallurgists and physicists.
01:28:32.000Some became convinced that it's real and some came convinced that it wasn't real.
01:28:39.000So there's some kind of energy, some unknown energy.
01:28:41.000That you're transmitting to that spoon?
01:28:44.000I think what's happening is very similar to what's going on with these micro PK events, micro psychokinetic events, that you're changing probabilistic structure at a very deep level, at the atomic level.
01:29:22.000So the state of mind was so peculiar that you were doing it without even focusing on the fact that you were doing it.
01:29:30.000I'm pretty sure if I was being analytical at the time, it would not have happened.
01:29:37.000That's what's so weird about the whole idea of intuition is that if you try it, if you really think about it too much, then you get fucked by your own perceptions in some way.
01:31:32.000You go into the Atlas and you can say, well, what portion of the body is that involved in?
01:31:37.000And it's involved with a whole bunch of different things happening in the brain.
01:31:43.000So anybody who's listening who has $10 million to spare and wants us to figure out what is the rest of the story, we can do that because we have the technology now.
01:31:55.000So, do you when you think of consciousness, do you think that we as individual biological entities are interacting with consciousness?
01:32:05.000And with different levels of achieving certain aspects of consciousness, some of it being genetic, some of it being life experience, education, training, but that we're just these individual biological entities that are tapping into whatever consciousness is.
01:32:25.000Yes, and no, but you see the subtitle How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality.
01:32:34.000So I'm viewing this as consciousness and the physical world are.
01:33:25.000His idea was that it splits because of meaning.
01:33:29.000So meaning is what caused this mind-matter split.
01:33:32.000And because they come out of the same place, they're tightly correlated, like two sides of the same coin.
01:33:36.000But meaning being very subjective, right?
01:33:39.000Like what is – when you say meaning.
01:33:41.000Yeah, that's a good question because Jung did not clearly define what he meant by meaning.
01:33:45.000We sort of know what that means, what meaning means.
01:33:49.000But it's in that theory at least, or the philosophy, it's not clearly defined.
01:33:54.000So when you get down to this one thing that these two things branch out, what is the one thing?
01:33:58.000It's the one thing that everything comes from.
01:34:01.000And also, mind and matter are two aspects that split, but there's an infinite number of other aspects that can split out of this one thing.
01:34:54.000Mechanics and quantum theory and particles being connected, spooky action at a distance.
01:35:02.000You get to the weird stuff about quantum, the quantum world, and particles being in superposition, moving and still at the same time, being connected over vast distances.
01:36:11.000So I gave a talk on this recently about how every time a new instrument extends our senses, whole new realms of reality open up that weren't even imagined before.
01:36:22.000So the reason why I'm continuing to be so interested in what is the nature of consciousness, what is the frontier. is because without consciousness we wouldn't know anything, quite literally.
01:36:39.000So in some respects we are creating all of this.
01:36:41.000creating all of this and so something seems weird because we we don't have the senses yet to be able to actually experience it directly god it's such a fascinating subject and the the concept of consciousness interacting with things less than yes interacting but more so that it is everything is It's like it's part of it.
01:37:14.000If you go all the way to full blown idealism, which is the philosophy that everything is consciousness, everything, the physical world emerges out of consciousness, that's idealism.
01:37:25.000It turns out that almost all of the founders of quantum mechanics were idealists, which is pretty odd when you think about it.
01:37:35.000The most successful physical theory developed so far were people who are idealists who felt that everything ultimately was consciousness.
01:37:44.000Not only that, most of them were also mystics.
01:37:47.000They read very extensively in Eastern philosophy.
01:37:54.000And that still is true for leading physicists today.
01:37:57.000Do you think there's ancient truths in all the mystic traditions and all these different things that have existed in religious texts?
01:38:07.000There is truth there that has been distorted by history and language, yes.
01:38:12.000And it doesn't help that the – I'm not going to pick on the Catholic Church, but religion in general has said, of course there's magic.
01:38:23.000Everything is magic, supernatural, fill in the blank, but don't pay too much attention to it, which is kind of strange, especially in the spiritual traditions.
01:38:33.000I had an opportunity to talk to a famous guru called Sadhguru.
01:38:39.000I asked Sadhguru, I'm a scientist and I'm studying psychic phenomena, but within the yogic tradition and virtually every other spiritual tradition, you're told not to do that.
01:38:49.000Don't pay attention to these psychic things.
01:38:52.000So I said, well, am I wasting my time as a scientist?
01:38:58.000And also, why did a spiritual tradition say that?
01:39:01.000And his answer was, imagine you're riding in a car and you've never ridden in a car before and you like the feeling of the air as it's going against your arm.
01:39:12.000Well, it might rip your arm off if you go near a tree.
01:39:15.000So the underlying story is you're dealing with something which is so powerful, you don't know what you're doing.
01:39:21.000And it's too powerful, so don't do it.
01:39:24.000To which I was thinking, well, you're saying I shouldn't be doing this, but that only makes me want to do it more because we need to figure out what this stuff is, right?
01:39:35.000The idea that you should just ignore it is ridiculous.
01:40:14.000Everything else is demonic and it will get you.
01:40:17.000And by the way, there's still a lot of people in our own government and in the military who believe that, and that is one of the reasons why UFOs have been deflected.
01:40:26.000Oh, JD Vance said he thinks they're demons.
01:40:55.000That's why, at least within the yogic tradition, If you're going through the path where you're eventually going to gain the cities, you spend probably the first three to five years not doing that.
01:41:07.000You learn how to get your ego in check.
01:41:10.000And so that turns out to be an extremely important aspect of the yogic training.
01:41:15.000And the yoga, by the way, has very little or nothing to do with the whole stretching and the maneuvers, all of that.
01:41:21.000All of the things that we think of as yoga in the West are designed to get you strong enough so you can sit in a lotus position for eight hours because that's where the action starts in meditation.
01:41:35.000not the physical side it is a reality of the human condition that if you give people that kind of power and that kind of influence over others a large percentage will abuse it yeah or at least use it to their own for their own personal gain control people and so and to set themselves up as being godlike or so here's what i told sad guru
01:42:00.000So one of the projects, because of our interest in this Psygenes thing, it's going to be a very complicated series of genes and probably intron sequence and so on.
01:42:10.000But nevertheless, we have the tools, we can do it if we had enough money.
01:42:15.000Setting aside the issue about ethics, about whether or not it's a good thing to do, seven years ago, a couple of colleagues and I formed a company called Cognigenics to see if we could use genetic engineering methods to do something like that.
01:42:30.000Could we significantly enhance perception and cognition and memory and all of that stuff so that you don't need to be a monk going into a cave for 30 years, but you can take a genetic edit and kind of get there quickly?
01:42:42.000So, again, setting aside for a moment the ethics and the Power seduction and all that.
01:44:37.000When they do the studies with monkeys, what happens?
01:44:40.000Well, there are two things that you look at.
01:44:43.000Well, first of all, you want to make sure that it actually gets into the brain.
01:44:46.000So you do a radioactive tag on the compound itself and then use a PET scan, depositron emission tomography, and you can then see does it actually get out of the nose and go into the brain?
01:44:59.000We can track where in the brain it's going.
01:45:01.000We mainly want it to get down to the limbic system because that's where the hippocampus is and where memory is encoded.
01:45:08.000And we know from our studies with mice and rats, you get 100% improvement in memory in mice and rats that are either aged or normal.
01:45:18.000A normal mouse will get 100% improvement in memory.
01:45:23.000Exactly at the same time, they'll get an almost 100% reduction in anxiety.
01:45:29.000So as you think about a treatment for dementia, Dementia patients get very anxious, so you want to calm them down and improve their memory.
01:46:59.000I mean, we're specifically making it temporary because if somebody had a bad trip on it, essentially, it'll eventually go away, and so it's not a big deal.
01:47:07.000But if you continue to do it, Like brushing your teeth.
01:47:11.000Well, so one of our concerns is that because this is going to improve memory, if a normal person who doesn't have dementia would it be something that kids are going to try to just snort all the time?
01:47:23.000So it's like Ritalin, that would not be good.
01:48:28.000So, I mean, we're being very careful at this point.
01:48:32.000We have people on board who are ethicists to say because we're talking about enhancing human performance and human cognition and perception.
01:48:40.000Can we enhance it all the way out into extrasensory perception, ESP, meaning psychic stuff?
01:48:47.000We don't know, but as I said, once we find what the polygenetic trait is.
01:48:52.000This is the story of the lady who did the mushrooms.
01:48:54.000Yeah, so a case study published in Frontiers in Neuroscience.
01:48:58.000In neuroscience, researchers focused on an 80 year old Japanese American woman with Alzheimer's.
01:49:02.000Her condition had declined over the last decade and was reduced to urinary incontinence, speaking in single syllables, and dependence on caregivers for mobility and support.
01:49:13.000She was then given a five gram dose of magic mushrooms.
01:49:15.000During the initial phase, she was agitated, sweated profusely, and entered a prolonged sleep state that suggested unconsciousness.
01:49:22.000But around hour 19, she began speaking in full sentences, recalling life events she had been unable to articulate for years.
01:49:30.000In the days and weeks that followed, more incredible changes emerged.
01:49:33.000She regained urinary continence even in the evenings and began dressing herself.
01:49:37.000She was able to make and maintain eye contact, remember social interactions, emotionally respond to others, and hold lucid conversations.
01:50:04.000A subsequent three gram dose of psilocybin was given to the patient and was followed by increased verbal expression, humor, and greater walking agility.
01:50:14.000Miraculous as the mushrooms may seem, the study authors note that the patient's improvements were temporary and psilocybin did not reverse the disease as her neurodegeneration remained.
01:50:26.000They did not specify exactly how long the improvements lasted.
01:50:30.000However, the research does demonstrate that some function believed to be irrevocably lost to late stage dementia.
01:50:36.000May not be gone but merely inaccessible, and that a mushroom trip has the potential to recover it, albeit briefly.
01:50:43.000But it sounds like this would be even better at that.
01:50:46.000Well, this has the hallucinatory part in the beginning.
01:50:50.000The reason why we think this works and the reason why we're doing a down regulation of 5 HD2A is because when you take psilocybin, it soupes it up.
01:51:00.000It's an agonist, it makes it more expressed.
01:51:02.000That's when all the hallucinations and stuff happens.
01:51:13.000So we would guess then that if the reason why this happened is because of the reduction of hyperactivity, which is what's involved with neurodegeneration, that it would happen immediately.
01:51:25.000So you don't need that initial push, that you're starting right from the get go with the reduction in this 5 HD 2A.
01:51:32.000God, that would be a phenomenal game changer for people that are suffering from this.
01:51:36.000And also, the same platform that we use to deliver this particular.
01:51:42.000Compound can be used with lots of other compounds.
01:51:45.000So, the more that psychiatry learns about neurodegeneration and about memory loss and all that, we can just change the compound and change the receptors.
01:52:29.000What would be the bad part of it when you try to look at it in the worst case scenario?
01:52:34.000What I have in mind is every time a new technology came along, people think this is the best thing ever.
01:52:40.000Like I met the guy who developed trans fats.
01:52:43.000Who thought he was going to help a lot of people because then they wouldn't, you know, fat wouldn't be so bad, turned out to be really bad.
01:53:34.000Just give it to everybody and everyone just gets along?
01:53:36.000Well, I mean, you probably need permission to do that.
01:53:40.000Right, but I mean, if you just told people that this is available and we no longer have to be in conflict with each other, that would be nice.
01:53:48.000And we might be able to connect with each other on some new realm.
01:55:24.000So if we have time, I'd like to explain one other.
01:55:30.000Experience that I had, which led me into thinking more about magic.
01:55:35.000Can I ask you one more question about this?
01:55:37.000If you developed some sort of a compound that gave real psychic ability, like something that was just undeniable, you could literally communicate with people, and you found out that this is something that you could give people as a supplement or some sort of a medication, what would you do with that information?
01:56:38.000And he said that that would be such a seductive power for most people that unless they had significant training beforehand, you don't want to do that.
01:56:50.000to do that significant training like you were talking about the monks ego out of the way yeah go through meditation And one of the things, one of the reasons why I'm interested in the noetic sciences in general is that when somebody has an experience, whether it's psilocybin or some other method, oftentimes there's a personality transformation.
01:57:11.000The personality transformation is like the positive side of PTSD.
01:57:15.000Like their mind is blown, they become pro social, which is the fancy term meaning they suddenly become compassionate.
01:57:22.000They become more interested in service.
01:57:56.000So it's also like you would have to have the two of them together.
01:58:01.000If you had ego death induced by psychedelics along with some sort of supplemental medication that allowed you to achieve legitimate psychic ability.
01:59:02.000I think that idea has to get out there more.
01:59:06.000I think it is more now than ever before.
01:59:09.000It's more of a common discussion that we're all connected.
01:59:14.000I feel like over the last few decades, it's much more acceptable to discuss this concept of us being all connected without being dismissed as being a kook.
01:59:26.000So this, which is part of the whole thing of like, if you don't believe it, if you're completely skeptical, you're blocking it, right?
02:00:13.000It can't just be the psychic ability because then you're just going to have manipulative psychopaths that have the ability that other people don't.
02:00:21.000And of course, all these crazy people that want to control the world and they're going to be the ones that first have access to it.
02:00:28.000Yeah, and I think it's not exactly ego death.
02:00:59.000But it's also like sort of encoding in people the discipline to be able to do that because that's also involved in controlling the ego.
02:01:09.000Technology emerges and this research continues to bear fruit, you're looking at the potential for a completely different way of human beings interacting with each other.
02:02:01.000Like when you hear about these scientists that are all involved with the UAP story wind up dead or disappearing, and people say, well, statistically, this can't be a coincidence.
02:03:08.000There's something like 39 million Americans around these GLP 1 drugs.
02:03:13.000Imagine if something comes along that is beneficial, I'm sure that's beneficial to obese people, but beneficial in a cognitive way.
02:03:25.000For people, that you have real science, real science actually achieves a result.
02:03:33.000This result becomes a supplement and it becomes something widely used and spread.
02:03:39.000Imagine the forms of control that are used by society, that are used by governments, that are used by mass media, that are used by corporations in order to pass whatever regulations they want.
02:03:53.000When you see politicians talking, when you see the real agenda behind it, all of it would evaporate.
02:04:00.000All the bullshit, all propaganda would be completely useless.
02:04:03.000You would enter into a completely new cooperative society where all the parasites and psychopaths and sociopaths would literally be exposed and you'd have to deal with them.
02:04:17.000You'd probably be terrified to realize how many of them are in control of so many institutions and how much of what you've been told is complete horseshit, how many nonprofits are a scam, how many different things that are happening are just happening in order to maintain control.
02:04:32.000That's why you can't do this overnight.
02:06:13.000Yeah, so that's so I mean, from a point of view of efficiency and peace and all that stuff, I think it'd be great.
02:06:20.000Well, it's also people have to look at it this way just what you have now by having a phone and being able to, like I said, just ask perplexity any question on human history, any question on mathematics, coding, anything.
02:06:34.000It gives you all the available information instantaneously in your phone.
02:06:48.000None of them involve devices that you carry around that have 24 hours of fucking battery life that can essentially do whatever you want take pictures, make videos, record audio, download movies, watch them instantaneously.
02:06:59.000You could fucking do anything in these things.
02:07:21.000What does you and me even talking look like?
02:07:25.000One of the reasons why I insist on doing these things in person, because I think it's a very different experience.
02:07:32.000I just intuitively, it just feels different when someone's in the room.
02:07:36.000When you're having a conversation with someone in the room, I've had great conversations with people through Zoom, like with Edward Snowden, when we do podcasts, we have to do it that way for obvious reasons.
02:07:46.000When you and I are talking right now, there's something else going on.
02:07:52.000Our minds are connecting and we're connecting somehow with all the people that are listening.
02:07:58.000There's this weird thing that happens and it happens when people are in proximity to each other, when they're right in the same room with each other.
02:08:21.000And not only that, if you start relying on perplexity or any other kind of AI, you're in serious trouble because those things are not perfect.
02:11:01.000That was already true with the development of neural networks.
02:11:04.000So I was using neural networks back in the 80s when the idea first came up.
02:11:09.000And so you would learn that this is related to that.
02:11:13.000And I would do it through the neural network training.
02:11:15.000And then you say, well, what did you learn?
02:11:17.000You couldn't figure it out because you have all of these weights and nodes inside the network that were encoding the information, but you couldn't then extract out from it to say, well, how did you learn this?
02:11:30.000It couldn't even tell you how it learned it, but it did, and it learned it really well.
02:11:36.000So a lot of that is going on in the AI world, too, that it's learning things really, really well, but it's too complex for us to understand.
02:11:46.000But do you think if you emphasize discipline thinking and Teach people specifically how to think and how to learn and how to do for themselves, that they could then expand upon that knowledge with AI instead of using it as a crutch.
02:12:28.000And whether it's people that grew up at a different time where they did learn how to think and now they're missing it and then they could find it in long form conversations, or whether it's just always going to be something that some people intuitively gravitate towards because they need more stimulation than they're getting from these simple TikTok videos and Instagram reels.
02:13:21.000You may still want the junk food, but you're able to override this.
02:13:24.000You'll have disciplined thinking, right?
02:13:27.000I think maybe education will move into a realm of being able to understand your own personal psychology.
02:13:33.000Being able to understand the value of discipline and the value of having a structure to the way you think and being able to apply those things.
02:13:43.000And then also recognizing that whatever this AI is doing is just giving you information.
02:13:47.000It doesn't make you smarter, it's not giving you more knowledge, it's just giving you data.
02:13:52.000And you have to then learn how to assimilate that data in an actionable way where you could use it in life.
02:13:59.000And we could teach people how to do that, maybe.
02:14:46.000You know, I guarantee you a bunch of people will see this and see the description of it in Spotify and go, oh, this is going to be a good one.
02:14:52.000You know, because there's a lot of people that have a hunger for interesting things.
02:14:56.000You know, I'm not a dooms guy when it comes to technology.
02:15:01.000I have a feeling we're going to sort it out.
02:15:11.000Exceptional people are always going to exist.
02:15:14.000There's always going to be people that aren't going to be willing to just give in to whatever this thing is that gives them this crutch and just become a blob that just presses buttons to get information instead of thinking.
02:15:25.000I think people are always going to want to think.
02:15:27.000It's part of what's fascinating about being a person learning new things and expanding your understanding of things.
02:16:13.000I am too, but I mean, I look back at things like you know, I mean, there's been moments since like you look at the pyramids, you go, okay, what happened?
02:17:00.000But there's a lot of people, along with the same type of people, that want to resist the idea, even if you have data, they don't want to look at it because they think it's nonsense.
02:17:23.000And there seems to be some very weird evidence in the form of 2,300,000.
02:17:28.000Thousand perfectly cut stones that point to true north, south, east, and west that were put in place by the civilization that just emerged out of nowhere with this ability.
02:18:49.000Are they us from the future that is coming back to make sure that we don't fuck it up and to sort of hold our hand through this experiment and just watch and observe on the outside in case things go horribly wrong, but allow.
02:19:00.000All these mistakes to take place and allow this progression to take place and just wait it out.
02:19:07.000I'm a fan of Hal Puthoff's ultra terrestrial idea that these are not from the future, they're from the past.
02:19:14.000They just happen to be way more advanced than we thought.
02:20:26.000So, yeah, so we had one of those and had an actual penguin next to each other in the museum, and I thought, well, that, you know, what is that?
02:21:00.000But that would I mean, you think either come from a planet that is almost exactly Earth like, which is possible, I guess, or they've already been here.
02:21:17.000Well, humanoid is shaped by evolution to be in a certain place.
02:21:21.000Because, like, we're so well shaped by evolution that we can go outside.
02:21:27.000On an average place, and even though there's only a couple of miles of atmosphere, we're perfectly fine.
02:21:34.000Are you aware of those examples of very bizarre heads that they found, skulls they found in places like Peru that don't have the sagittal suture, that have a brain capacity that's 30% larger than ours?
02:24:50.000And if that's not done through forming of the skull and pushing the skull into the new shape, what is it?
02:24:58.000And were they doing that because they were trying to mimic something that was superior to them?
02:25:02.000And that's where it gets weird, like that, those real elongated skulls, Inca Museum up there, right above your cursor, yeah, to the left, right there.
02:26:32.000Well, there's always been stories about.
02:26:33.000I mean, Tim Burchett, the congressman, came on this podcast and was talking about how there are five different locations in the deep ocean that they're aware of activity, that things have happened there.
02:27:14.000But it just, at a certain point in time, you would imagine if we could get far more advanced than we are now and we found out about a society that is at a stage where we are currently, for sure we'd go visit.
02:29:39.000Well, if it turns out that there is some activity, that there are some things that we can't explain that are happening from deep in the ocean, we're going to have to come up with some sort of an explanation.
02:29:52.000If that is an actual intelligent species, an intelligent life form, something, whatever it is, there's got to be some explanation for that.
02:30:01.000So the ultra terrestrial one is just as good.
02:30:05.000Yeah, there's an explanation for everything.
02:30:08.000The question is A, are we smart enough to figure it out?
02:30:15.000And both of those are complete unknowns.
02:30:18.000But that's, I mean, that's yet another reason why I like the kind of work that I do that you need to have very high tolerance for ambiguity, of which I do.
02:30:27.000Like, I'm okay with not knowing a lot of basically everything.
02:30:30.000I know enough to be able to be dangerous, but otherwise, I don't mind that I don't know.
02:30:37.000Well, I'm very thankful that people like you are out there because if you weren't out there doing this work and you weren't out there expanding on this, I mean, it's really fascinating when the, If something like this does emerge, it would change the human race.
02:30:49.000change the human race and think about the small amount of people that are involved in this research.
02:32:43.000About three weeks go by and I decide to walk you a different way to work.
02:32:47.000I'm going through this office place different ways.
02:32:50.000And I notice that right next to our office is something with a tiny little sign that says SciQuest Labs.
02:32:57.000And so now we're thinking, What does a personnel services thing need with a laboratory?
02:33:02.000So I look through the mini blinds, there's nobody in there.
02:33:05.000So now I'm determined to find out what are you guys doing?
02:33:08.000So every day over the next couple of weeks, I go past that place and knock on the door and I'm looking through the blinds, there's nobody there.
02:33:16.000Finally, one day I see somebody in there, knock on the door and I'm going to say, hello, my name is.
02:33:22.000The door opens, the guy's jaw drops before I could say my name and he says, Dean Radin?
02:33:30.000And now I'm thinking, well, I've never seen you before.
02:34:18.000He said, I was looking to contact you because I want you to be on my board of directors, but I didn't know where you were and I didn't know how to contact you.
02:34:38.000But there's a magical element to it as well.
02:34:41.000So, over a course of 24 hours, for three hours he was awake, three hours he sleeps, back and forth over the course of 24 hours.
02:34:48.000While awake, he's picturing that I show up.
02:34:53.000And so I opened the door, and that's why his jaw dropped, because at that point he was awake, he was walking around, but I showed up and he was trying to make me show up.
02:35:24.000And so he gave me a tour of his laboratory.
02:35:27.000That's when my jaw dropped, because what I had been doing, adjacent wall next to his, without knowing what's going over there on a whiteboard, I was drawing a special kind of chair that we wanted in a special shielded room and equipment and everything on the whiteboard.
02:36:14.000So it was so incredible that I told the other guys in our institute, and in a sense, they understood what was happening because they saw the same laboratory and stuff.
02:36:26.000After a while, we never talked about it again.
02:36:29.000I mean, it was so bizarre and so magical in a sense that we all thought we were doing things of our own free will, but apparently not.
02:36:39.000So I started looking into Yoga Nidra, the magical side of it.
02:36:44.000It's all about intention, focused intention in a non ordinary state.
02:36:49.000And it is literally a magical practice out of the yogic tradition.
02:36:54.000So, yet another reason why I'm writing about the science of magic, the real magic, And showing how a lot of the science that we know now actually overlaps.