The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #2513 - Dean Radin

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.

00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

00:00:09.000 Thank you for being here.

00:00:14.000 I'm excited to talk to you.

00:00:14.000 Good to be here.

00:00:16.000 Did you maybe manifest this conversation somehow?

00:00:19.000 Maybe.

00:00:23.000 I've seen a bunch of your talks online.

00:00:25.000 And first of all, let's start from the beginning.

00:00:30.000 What is your background?

00:00:33.000 I thought I'd give you a 45 year arc in about three minutes.

00:00:39.000 Perfect.

00:00:39.000 Because then there's a lot of places you can get into it.

00:00:42.000 So I started out as a musician, violin, up until about halfway through college.

00:00:49.000 And then I realized to be a musician means you have to be an athlete because you're making your living with your body.

00:00:55.000 No one told me that up through until I finally decided I don't think I want to make my living with my body.

00:01:03.000 Because I've never been very strong.

00:01:04.000 And more importantly, you also need to have a lot of stamina.

00:01:07.000 And I didn't have that.

00:01:08.000 And you weren't interested in gaining it?

00:01:11.000 I couldn't.

00:01:12.000 I have a genetic mutation that creates it.

00:01:17.000 Like most people, when they exercise, you feel really good afterwards.

00:01:20.000 I feel really exhausted.

00:01:22.000 And I never understood why until many years later I realized that I have something called Gilbert syndrome, which is a mutation of a liver enzyme, and you have no recovery time.

00:01:34.000 Whoa.

00:01:35.000 Yeah.

00:01:36.000 Is there anything they can do for that?

00:01:39.000 Other than something like genetic engineering, which I've never heard anybody try yet, the answer is no.

00:01:44.000 I've never heard of that condition before, I don't think.

00:01:46.000 Yeah.

00:01:47.000 There's some missing enzymes, and more importantly, the bilirubin, which is unconjugated bilirubin, you have way too much of it.

00:01:56.000 So there's an upside and a downside.

00:01:57.000 The downside is that you can't recover from exercise quickly, and so there's a lot of fatigue that happens.

00:02:04.000 The upside is that unconjugated bilirubin is an antioxidant.

00:02:09.000 It's one of the most natural antioxidants.

00:02:13.000 So my cardiovascular system is like a 20 year old.

00:02:17.000 Oh.

00:02:18.000 So you got your pros and your cons with this.

00:02:20.000 Yeah.

00:02:21.000 Have you ever tried exercising in very small doses, like throughout the day?

00:02:27.000 Well, I walk every day.

00:02:29.000 So that's my primary exercise.

00:02:31.000 That's always great exercise.

00:02:32.000 If I walk too fast, too hard, I will feel it for the next three or four days.

00:02:38.000 Wow.

00:02:40.000 So, too fast, too hard, too long.

00:02:42.000 Yeah.

00:02:43.000 So, what if you do like two push ups and then just do two push ups like four hours later and then two push ups like four hours later?

00:02:50.000 Yeah.

00:02:50.000 I can do that.

00:02:51.000 I can do seven push ups.

00:02:51.000 Yeah.

00:02:53.000 Maybe that's the move.

00:02:53.000 Yeah.

00:02:54.000 Maybe the move is just make yourself do things very lightly throughout the day just to keep your bone mass and all that good stuff that we lose when we get older.

00:03:06.000 Yeah.

00:03:07.000 You know, but it sounds like there's a pro the cardiovascular benefits pretty sweet.

00:03:11.000 Yeah.

00:03:12.000 So, when you get to a certain age, your doctor says, let's take a cardiac calcium scan to see what your artery is doing.

00:03:21.000 And the range is from zero, so they don't see anything in there, up to 100, where you're basically about to die.

00:03:28.000 So, my doctor did say, let's do that because your cholesterol is like off, it's way too high.

00:03:35.000 And I have zero.

00:03:37.000 Oh, wow.

00:03:38.000 And say, well, how could you have zero?

00:03:40.000 Because I'm 74.

00:03:42.000 I should not be zero, but I do, and it's because of this.

00:03:44.000 You look really good for 74.

00:03:45.000 Thank you.

00:03:46.000 You do.

00:03:47.000 You look like maybe 15, 20 years younger than you're supposed to look.

00:03:52.000 Yeah.

00:03:53.000 So that's the other advantage of this particular mutation is longevity. 0.99

00:03:58.000 Damn. 0.99

00:03:58.000 Well, that's good. 0.99

00:04:00.000 That's good.

00:04:01.000 There's a positive to it.

00:04:02.000 So, violinists can I ask you this?

00:04:05.000 Totally unrelated.

00:04:05.000 What is the difference between a violin and a fiddle?

00:04:09.000 Well, a violin is a career track towards concert violinists.

00:04:13.000 So, it's classical music.

00:04:15.000 So, it's how you play it?

00:04:16.000 It's partially how you play it, but it's mostly about the nature of the music that you're playing.

00:04:22.000 So, is it just how it's referred in different cultures?

00:04:25.000 Like in Southern music, it would be a fiddle.

00:04:28.000 It's also style.

00:04:29.000 It's style, and it's also the intonation.

00:04:33.000 Like, if you did like I did, I transitioned from classical violin when I knew I wasn't going to do that as a career into bluegrass fiddle and banjo.

00:04:43.000 So, I actually ended up playing 25 years, the last five years being bluegrass.

00:04:48.000 And so, there, I actually had to learn not to play that well.

00:04:53.000 Like, it sounds better for bluegrass if you're a little bit off tune and you're not holding it right and it's Authentic.

00:05:02.000 Scratchy.

00:05:02.000 Yes.

00:05:03.000 Something to it.

00:05:03.000 Yes.

00:05:04.000 So, in fact, in graduate school, I was in the competition for the Illinois State Fiddler Contest.

00:05:12.000 And so I was probably 25 or something at the time.

00:05:16.000 And Allison Krause was like a teenager and she was in the same competition and I lost miserably.

00:05:24.000 And she was incredible even at that time.

00:05:26.000 Who is she? 0.98

00:05:27.000 Allison Krause?

00:05:28.000 I don't know who she is.

00:05:30.000 Sorry.

00:05:31.000 Do you know who she is, Jamie?

00:05:33.000 Yeah.

00:05:34.000 She's very, very well known somewhere between country. 0.92

00:05:38.000 Singer, but she plays the violin and the fiddle and has a fantastic voice.

00:05:42.000 I'm out of the loop.

00:05:43.000 I'm sorry.

00:05:44.000 Yeah.

00:05:45.000 If you heard one of her songs, I'm sure you would know it.

00:05:47.000 If you made me name a fiddler, I would say, well, The Devil Went Down to Georgia was the first time, like, America really understood, like, popular culture, like, the fiddle got introduced.

00:05:47.000 Yeah.

00:06:02.000 Is that fair to say?

00:06:03.000 Yeah.

00:06:03.000 Like, that, for a lot of people, that song, that Charlie Daniels Jr. song, that's the fiddle.

00:06:03.000 Yeah.

00:06:11.000 Yeah, that's like is that good?

00:06:12.000 Well, yeah, it was pretty good.

00:06:13.000 It's a little bit like fiddle on steroids, but yeah.

00:06:17.000 But I mean, like as a fiddler, do you hear that or is it like only for the unwashed masses that think that's good?

00:06:23.000 No, no, no.

00:06:24.000 It's good fiddling, yeah.

00:06:25.000 Yeah, it's fiddling around.

00:06:27.000 It's a beautiful instrument.

00:06:29.000 Sorry to further sidetrack.

00:06:31.000 Okay, so I did that for 20 years or so, and then in the middle of college, I decided, I think I want to get a job where I could use my mind instead of my body.

00:06:41.000 So I switched into electrical engineering.

00:06:44.000 Why?

00:06:45.000 Because I like to take stuff apart and I used to make things in high school.

00:06:50.000 So then I didn't know what I wanted to do after I got my degree, so I went on to get a master's in electrical engineering.

00:06:56.000 And then I didn't want to be an electrical engineer anymore, so I got a PhD in experimental psychology.

00:07:02.000 And so it sounds like flipping back and forth between lots of different things, and it kind of is, but you'll see that my career is a little bit like a game show in that you're presented with this is what you could do.

00:07:16.000 Like forever, or you can choose door number two.

00:07:20.000 And I almost always chose door number two because I would do this for a while and say, I sort of understand that now.

00:07:26.000 I want to do something different.

00:07:28.000 Door number two.

00:07:30.000 So, as a senior in college, I learned about this place called the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which was started by Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was the sixth man on the moon.

00:07:43.000 And on the way back to the Earth, he had a mystical experience.

00:07:47.000 And so today, a lot of people who go into space talk about the overview effect.

00:07:52.000 And he was one of the first to talk about it openly, even though all of the other astronauts had it.

00:07:58.000 it expresses itself in different ways.

00:08:00.000 So people generally will turn from whatever they were, it's a transformative experience, and they become different.

00:08:07.000 And so in his way of expressing that after the mystical experience and thinking, what in the world is that?

00:08:14.000 Because he felt one with the universe, literally, he decided to create this institute that would study what he had been studying for outer space, but for inner space, to explore inner space.

00:08:27.000 So I remember in college reading about this new institute and their motto was exploring the frontiers of consciousness.

00:08:36.000 And I thought, that sounds like something I want to do.

00:08:40.000 But there wasn't any place to do that other than this one institute.

00:08:44.000 So I always had in the back of my mind that that's where I want to end up.

00:08:49.000 What is that term, noetic?

00:08:50.000 I know I've heard it before, but I never looked it up.

00:08:52.000 Noetic.

00:08:54.000 So noetic is a feeling of intuition, except that it carries a sense of certainty.

00:09:01.000 That the intuition is correct.

00:09:03.000 So, intuition is knowing something without knowing how you know it.

00:09:07.000 It just sort of arrives.

00:09:09.000 But it's knowing with certainty.

00:09:11.000 And more often than not, the certainty is correct.

00:09:14.000 So, people talk about downloads in meditation and other places.

00:09:18.000 That's what that is.

00:09:20.000 This is a subject that, up until I would say the last couple decades, was pretty openly dismissed by rational people.

00:09:31.000 There's almost like.

00:09:33.000 A desire to dismiss it, like a desire to define the world in much clearer terms where it's maybe ego driven, you're in control of your own destiny, and then there's certain factors that are out of your control, and just this is how it is, and this is life, deal with it.

00:09:49.000 And all this mystical woo woo magic bullshit that people have been talking about for some strange reason for thousands of years, we just dismiss.

00:09:57.000 And we dismiss it under the narrative of science. 0.96

00:10:02.000 We're talking about science.

00:10:03.000 We're science people.

00:10:04.000 We want data.

00:10:05.000 But there is data, that's what's weird.

00:10:07.000 And if you're willing to look a little preposterous, which I certainly am, I think it's a good thing to do every now and then. 0.92

00:10:15.000 Take a fucking chance and try to figure out if the world is exactly constructed the way you've been told. 0.96

00:10:23.000 Because it might not be. 0.99

00:10:25.000 There might be some weirdness to it all.

00:10:27.000 And it seems like we all agree.

00:10:29.000 We all agree there is some weirdness.

00:10:31.000 You could chalk it off to coincidence when you think about a person and you haven't thought about them forever and all of a sudden they call you.

00:10:38.000 There's some weirdness in the world.

00:10:41.000 There's some weirdness in the world, like knowing not to do something and then something happens.

00:10:46.000 There's some weirdness in knowing something's going to happen and you ignore that feeling and then something terrible happens. 0.98

00:10:51.000 You're like, fuck, I knew I shouldn't have gone there. 0.98

00:10:55.000 There's weirdness in the world. 0.99

00:10:57.000 And it's not necessarily just pattern recognition and understanding scenarios because you've experienced them before.

00:11:05.000 There's something to that too.

00:11:06.000 That's part of it too.

00:11:08.000 But there's also something else.

00:11:09.000 There's some weird connection that people have.

00:11:11.000 There's a thing that when you know someone's mad at you and they don't say anything, you're like, what is this? 0.98

00:11:15.000 Fucking weird energy, I'm getting off this guy. 0.94

00:11:17.000 There's some stuff we're experiencing in the world that you can't put on a scale. 0.99

00:11:22.000 You can't put a tape measure to it.

00:11:26.000 You can't measure its density, but it's there.

00:11:28.000 There's something.

00:11:30.000 We have a very limited amount of senses in terms of our ability to see, feel, touch, smell.

00:11:36.000 It's not enough.

00:11:38.000 There's probably some other stuff out there.

00:11:39.000 We don't have the tools to measure, but it impacts us.

00:11:42.000 But we do have the tools to measure.

00:11:43.000 Measure.

00:11:44.000 That's what attracted me to the rest of my career.

00:11:49.000 Exactly for the same reason you just said, that people have experiences, oftentimes they feel pretty strange, and so they start looking for, well, what is that?

00:11:58.000 If you go to a conventional science spokesperson, they will echo back exactly what you're saying.

00:12:04.000 It's coincidence, it's frailty of memory, all of that stuff.

00:12:09.000 I learned early on, even in college, that there is a branch of science that has studied these things.

00:12:17.000 I mean, it's been going on since the late 1800s that the scientists have been interested in these kinds of phenomena.

00:12:22.000 And science is really, really good at taking even strange subjective experiences and figuring out is that a coincidence or is that what is that?

00:12:32.000 Is it real?

00:12:33.000 That attracted me.

00:12:35.000 So and it partially came out of reading a lot of science fiction.

00:12:39.000 Your science fiction is saturated with these kinds of stories where the element of the story is revolving around some kind of psychic or noetic thing.

00:12:47.000 Yeah.

00:12:47.000 The Force.

00:12:48.000 The force in Dune, the series, Frank Herbert's Dune series, the whole thing about spice.

00:12:55.000 Why did they have to take spice?

00:12:57.000 Because that's the only way you can navigate when you're jumping through wormholes.

00:13:01.000 Like you needed to know what you're about to expect on the other side.

00:13:05.000 It just saturates novels and science fiction.

00:13:08.000 It's there.

00:13:09.000 And generally, if you have a topic that people are paying attention to like that and are very popular, it's because something is resonating.

00:13:18.000 Like if it was so strange that nobody even had a way of thinking about it, it wouldn't be popular.

00:13:25.000 But it is, and it's perennially popular.

00:13:27.000 So I took the science fiction interest, and as even a younger kid, about fairy tales, which is saturated with these things too.

00:13:36.000 And I thought, well, I wonder if that's real.

00:13:38.000 But then you kind of get shuttled into a scientific career.

00:13:42.000 And one thing that happens for fledgling engineers and scientists, and for a lot of other academics, is that you're being taught a set of assumptions about the way that the world works.

00:13:53.000 called materialism or physicalism.

00:13:55.000 And the thing is, you're not taught that that is a set of assumptions.

00:13:59.000 You take it for granted after a while because after you go through college for 20 plus years and no one ever mentions that we're working under a set of assumptions, a materialism, and no one ever talks about the philosophy of science, which is all about studying the assumptions and are they correct.

00:14:17.000 Once you do start studying the philosophy of science, you find out that there's lots of different ways of understanding reality.

00:14:24.000 And so there's the whole materialistic side, which is really, really good at explaining aspects of the physical world.

00:14:31.000 It gives us these kinds of technologies.

00:14:33.000 But it doesn't explain subjective experience at all.

00:14:38.000 And so that's like an existing number one mystery in science today because you have to challenge the idea that materialism is all there is.

00:14:48.000 And so people have weird experiences.

00:14:51.000 They're talking about a more comprehensive way of understanding reality.

00:14:54.000 That's what's going on.

00:14:56.000 And so that's why I end up writing a book like this.

00:14:59.000 So, the magic here is not stage magic.

00:15:02.000 magic.

00:15:03.000 It's the real magic, which we don't have a name for yet.

00:15:06.000 When they first started studying this in the 1800s, what were they specifically trying to isolate or figure out?

00:15:13.000 Well, just like today, people would see...

00:15:15.000 They would have the sense that there were telepathic connections between people.

00:15:19.000 They'd have precognitions.

00:15:21.000 And it was the beginning of figuring out ways of using experimental science to be able to study these things under controlled conditions.

00:15:30.000 And the word control is important because it means You exclude coincidence by the design, and you exclude leakage of information, you exclude all kinds of things.

00:15:40.000 Things.

00:15:41.000 So the only thing left over is if that telepathic thing was real, then we'd be able to see it in the lab.

00:15:48.000 And the short story is yeah, we're now 150 years past that, and we have very, very strong evidence that telepathy does exist.

00:15:57.000 So what was the first evidence that they were able to get out of these initial experiments?

00:16:03.000 They used to call it thought transference.

00:16:05.000 And so the methods they were using then would not pass muster today.

00:16:09.000 They would have like two kids who say, We can.

00:16:13.000 We can do telepathic transfer between us.

00:16:16.000 And then many times they would find that the kids were using some kind of signal.

00:16:19.000 And so that wouldn't work today.

00:16:22.000 Today, people have to be strictly isolated.

00:16:24.000 Neither can know what the target is that they're trying to transfer to the other person.

00:16:29.000 And we do lots and lots of replications with lots of people.

00:16:33.000 And so that then forms a body of evidence where it becomes extremely difficult to think of what the flaw might be.

00:16:41.000 And in fact, if you ask skeptics about it who know the literature, their usual response now is either.

00:16:47.000 There's no plausible flaw that they can identify because a lot of time has been spent to figure out what might be a flaw.

00:16:55.000 And the second response, which is more recent now, is we're not even going to look at the evidence because we know it's impossible, which is no longer a scientific argument.

00:17:04.000 But that's the approach.

00:17:06.000 We're not going to look at the data. 0.85

00:17:07.000 That's silly.

00:17:08.000 Well, it's really silly when you consider the intelligence agencies have spent an enormous amount of money and a considerable amount of time studying remote viewing. 0.97

00:17:16.000 Why would they invest that much time in nonsense?

00:17:16.000 Like, why?

00:17:21.000 Why would they invest that much time in something where there's no evidence whatsoever and they've never achieved positive results?

00:17:26.000 That doesn't seem to be correct.

00:17:29.000 No.

00:17:29.000 If you listen to the stories of the guy like Hal Put Off and all these different people that have been involved in these remote viewing experiments, they had actionable data that they derived specifically from remote viewing.

00:17:43.000 I don't understand it.

00:17:44.000 I've never done it, I've never attempted it.

00:17:47.000 I don't know if I can do it.

00:17:49.000 I did it once.

00:17:50.000 We had an experiment on a television show that I did where we had this guy who claimed to be a remote viewer remote view this area and it was off.

00:17:59.000 But it was also under duress with cameras.

00:18:01.000 Is that the state of mind that you want to be in when you're trying to remote view?

00:18:06.000 No, that's not ideal at all.

00:18:08.000 And that is a factor, a major factor, and whether or not you can understand intuition is what is your state of mind?

00:18:17.000 Are you in a place of complete anxiety and fear or are you totally relaxed and focused on what you're doing?

00:18:23.000 Is there any distractions?

00:18:24.000 Is there a jackhammer nearby?

00:18:26.000 Is there a dog barking?

00:18:27.000 Is there something that could interrupt this state of mind that you're trying to achieve?

00:18:32.000 Because there's different states of mind.

00:18:35.000 We know this.

00:18:36.000 We can measure this.

00:18:37.000 We can measure the brain waves.

00:18:38.000 We understand that the state of mind is not a static thing like a toaster.

00:18:43.000 It's not on or off. 0.98

00:18:45.000 There's a bunch of different shit going on in your brain, in your mind, at any given time. 0.64

00:18:50.000 So the idea that remote viewing, which is some very bizarre connection, That some people have to reality that's nowhere near local. 0.97

00:19:00.000 They can describe things in detail, talk about submarines that are being constructed in the Soviet Union. 0.98

00:19:07.000 There's weird shit to that. 1.00

00:19:10.000 If you just dismiss that, you're being a fool. 1.00

00:19:14.000 There's something there. 0.99

00:19:15.000 The only way anybody figures out if there's something there is if you study it. 0.97

00:19:20.000 If actually intelligent people are willing to look a little foolish and spend some time studying it.

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00:20:21.000 So that brings us to my next job.

00:20:21.000 Right.

00:20:24.000 So after I got my doctorate, I started working at Bell Laboratories.

00:20:28.000 So it was the biggest laboratory in the world at the time, it was still the Bell System.

00:20:34.000 And because I was interested in these kinds of things, for some of my time at Bell Labs, I started doing little psychic experiments involving mind-matter interaction and also involving precognition.

00:20:46.000 So there's an ongoing link here that goes back to the Institute of Endoetic Sciences in a strange way.

00:20:54.000 Edgar Mitchell gave the first money to SRI International, which is where Hal Putoff and Russ Targ was, to do remote viewing studies.

00:21:04.000 He also brought Uri Geller.

00:21:05.000 To the United States.

00:21:07.000 And it brought SRI and a bunch of other places, including Bell Labs.

00:21:11.000 So when I was working at the labs, I knew that there had been people who had seen some of the stuff that Geller did.

00:21:17.000 And I was doing these little psychic things.

00:21:19.000 So I asked for permission to be able to present some of the work I was doing at an annual conference of the Parapsychological Association, which is an affiliate of the largest scientific organization in the United States, the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

00:21:35.000 So, many people don't know that the Parapsychological Association is one of the 200 some affiliates of the AAAS.

00:21:42.000 It's a legitimate scientific organization.

00:21:45.000 So, I did this precognition test.

00:21:47.000 I asked for permission, and I got permission not only to give my presentation at the conference, but to use the Bell Labs imprimatur.

00:21:56.000 So, I was giving this as some guy from Bell Labs talking to this audience.

00:22:02.000 Unbeknownst to me, there were a few people in the audience who came up afterwards, and one of them said, If there was an opening, would you be interested in joining the Stargate program?

00:22:13.000 Whoa.

00:22:14.000 And so that was an offer I couldn't refuse.

00:22:17.000 That's one of these cases you have this door or you have that door.

00:22:20.000 Well, that door looked really interesting because it was known at the time that there were people at SRI doing this sort of thing, but the classified portions were a rumor.

00:22:29.000 Like nobody knew what was really going on.

00:22:31.000 Right.

00:22:32.000 So I took a leave of absence.

00:22:34.000 You get that offer?

00:22:34.000 That must have been exciting.

00:22:36.000 Stargate?

00:22:37.000 Are you kidding? 1.00

00:22:38.000 Holy shit. 0.99

00:22:39.000 So I took a leave of absence for one year from Bell Labs. 0.99

00:22:43.000 And so I went to SRI International.

00:22:45.000 Hal Putoff was my boss.

00:22:48.000 And then Ed May, when Hal left in 1985, Ed May took over.

00:22:52.000 He may not be a name that is known as well, but he was the director for 10 years.

00:22:58.000 And so I worked on that project.

00:23:01.000 And it took a long time to get the clearances because, first of all, I didn't know anything about classification or anything.

00:23:07.000 But I figured, well, maybe it's just secret.

00:23:11.000 No.

00:23:11.000 It's just top secret.

00:23:13.000 It's top secret SEI.

00:23:13.000 No.

00:23:15.000 No, it's top secret SEI special access program, which means there's literally a book that you have to sign and you can see all the other people who have signed that book.

00:23:26.000 who have signed that book, special access means even if you have a top secret clearance, you cannot know about this place.

00:23:34.000 You cannot know about the code word.

00:23:37.000 The code word was classified.

00:23:39.000 So, I mean, which seems kind of odd because if you have a code word, it's not saying anything.

00:23:45.000 But nevertheless, that's how it worked.

00:23:47.000 Wow.

00:23:48.000 So we were the research side of people who talk about Stargate.

00:23:52.000 Mostly they're talking about the military side, the operational side.

00:23:56.000 Well, we knew what they were doing, but our mission was different.

00:23:59.000 Our mission was Figure out those questions that you're asking.

00:24:02.000 How does this stuff work?

00:24:04.000 Like, is it real?

00:24:05.000 Yes.

00:24:06.000 Some people are very talented.

00:24:09.000 What are the limits of it?

00:24:11.000 Can you block it?

00:24:11.000 Can you shield it?

00:24:12.000 Can you do camouflage?

00:24:14.000 And one of the main areas was, what's the difference between someone like Joe McMonocle, who's a superstar in this area?

00:24:22.000 Why is he any different than anybody else?

00:24:25.000 Because, like, when I first met the Ingo Swan and Joe and a bunch of other people, They were so different than my stereotype of Madame Zodiac that they like, I say, you got to be kidding.

00:24:37.000 These people are remote viewers. 0.89

00:24:39.000 They're just like guys and gals.

00:24:43.000 And so every method was used to try to figure out, is it psychological difference?

00:24:47.000 Is it physiological?

00:24:48.000 Is it medical?

00:24:50.000 And the answer was we couldn't find anything.

00:24:50.000 What is it?

00:24:53.000 Now, there may be some background about the people themselves, but in terms of finding out something that we could use to select because The Army and others were interested in getting lots of other people who would be talented too.

00:25:07.000 So there was no consistent factors?

00:25:09.000 No.

00:25:09.000 There wasn't anything.

00:25:10.000 Wow.

00:25:11.000 That seems crazy.

00:25:13.000 Except maybe talent.

00:25:14.000 Two things talent and openness.

00:25:16.000 So talent is natural talent.

00:25:19.000 It's partially based on genetics.

00:25:21.000 And openness is a psychological trait where you're simply open to experience.

00:25:25.000 So people who tend to have a certain way of thinking about things and are not open to other stuff, they block it.

00:25:33.000 They could block it real good.

00:25:36.000 People who are open to experience and willing to try new things, they in general tend to do better.

00:25:41.000 So that brings us to talent, which I'll get to a little bit later, especially about the genetics of talent.

00:25:48.000 So we didn't have the genetic tools at the time.

00:25:52.000 Now we do have the genetic tools.

00:25:54.000 And so we've done a couple of studies looking for what we call the Psygene.

00:25:58.000 So we think we're on to something.

00:26:02.000 Okay, so I work on Stargate.

00:26:05.000 For a year, go back to Bell Labs and almost immediately get another invitation.

00:26:09.000 It's one of these doors open again.

00:26:12.000 How would you like to go to Princeton?

00:26:14.000 Because at Princeton at the time was the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory.

00:26:18.000 It was a lab doing psi research that was headed by the dean of the School of Engineering.

00:26:25.000 And so that lab went almost for 30 years doing mind matter interaction, doing remote viewing, and a bunch of other stuff at Princeton.

00:26:33.000 So my position was.

00:26:35.000 In the psych department, because that's where I had my PhD, but to lead a program among many departments, one of which was the Pearlab. 0.81

00:26:45.000 And the idea was in order to have any chance of beginning to understand this stuff, you need to pull in every discipline because it's way too big.

00:26:55.000 It's too complicated for a single discipline.

00:26:58.000 So we had the philosophy department and the psychology department and civil engineering and the Pearlab and a bunch of other departments.

00:27:07.000 My job was to sort of corral it together.

00:27:10.000 to create multidisciplinary research projects.

00:27:11.000 And I was told on day one that's impossible.

00:27:16.000 This is a job you cannot do.

00:27:18.000 Well, why?

00:27:19.000 Cannot do.

00:27:20.000 Well, why?

00:27:21.000 I mean, we had the money for it.

00:27:23.000 And the answer is that in the academic world, you succeed within silos.

00:27:28.000 You know an enormous amount about a very particular kind of topic.

00:27:33.000 Like, even in the psych department there, you have cognitive psychologists, perceptual psychologists, social psychologists, and on and on and on.

00:27:40.000 They don't even talk to each other because it's outside of your discipline, outside the little silo.

00:27:46.000 My job was to sort of mash it together, and it was Ridiculously complicated.

00:27:52.000 Was there resistance?

00:27:54.000 Oh my God.

00:27:56.000 Resistance is not quite strong enough.

00:27:58.000 It's like each one of the departments was getting money from this big grant that we had, so they were willing to play the game.

00:28:05.000 But when it actually came down to doing some kind of a cross filtering, no.

00:28:10.000 Why didn't they want to collaborate?

00:28:13.000 Because everything of value in the academic world is in your silo.

00:28:18.000 So if you're trying to work across silos, again, even within the same department, Social psychology and perceptual psychology might not even talk to each other.

00:28:27.000 Their offices are right next to each other.

00:28:30.000 But that's simply the way that it's the same.

00:28:31.000 Yeah, but it also sort of makes sense when you think about it.

00:28:34.000 To become an expert in something takes 20 years from the university and then the rest of your academic career just to keep up with it.

00:28:43.000 So it kind of makes sense that you don't want to start turning your attention off to something else because you're not in that department anymore.

00:28:49.000 So it's a problem and it's always been there.

00:28:53.000 It's not getting any better either.

00:28:55.000 Well, it seems like there should be a way to fix that.

00:28:57.000 The ultimate goal should be whatever we're all working on collectively should benefit mankind.

00:29:02.000 If you're in the psychology industry, which you are, if you're teaching psychology, if you're working on psychology, you should want to get involved in this.

00:29:12.000 this.

00:29:13.000 The fact that they're all siloed off like that seems insane.

00:29:16.000 So the approach that's sometimes taken in the academic world is to create a center, Center for the Study of Fill in the Blank.

00:29:21.000 That brings in people from different disciplines, and then they're kind of forced together.

00:29:25.000 But these people from different disciplines probably are already working on important stuff to them, and this is taking away from their time.

00:29:32.000 It could be, except that depending on the nature of the work, it may be something that requires another discipline.

00:29:39.000 So you might have somebody in computer science who's working on that, and then you have somebody in psychology who's interested in the human side, like how do you connect the computer and the people?

00:29:48.000 Well, there's a sub-discipline called human factors.

00:29:51.000 That's where I was working in Bell Labs because I had engineering and psychology.

00:29:55.000 So, you kind of mash those two together, and then you could actually learn some new stuff that's of value to both.

00:30:01.000 And also, that's how you create new disciplines.

00:30:03.000 That's how the discipline of neuroscience began.

00:30:05.000 So, you go back, now it's more like 60 to 70 years ago, somebody noticed that you have all these people in biology and all these people looking at cells and people looking at things having to do with the nervous system that were all different disciplines.

00:30:23.000 So, a large foundation came along and said, I think we need to create a discipline of the neurosciences.

00:30:30.000 And they threw enough money at it to bring people together and that formed a new discipline.

00:30:36.000 So I work in the area of consciousness studies, which is only now starting to become its own discipline.

00:30:43.000 Because before that, it was maybe a few philosophers interested in it and anesthesiologists and that's it.

00:30:49.000 But it's changing.

00:30:51.000 So when you were at Princeton, how did you start it?

00:30:55.000 What specifically were you working on initially?

00:30:57.000 Well, besides trying to get people to talk to each other, which was frustrating.

00:31:02.000 Big task.

00:31:03.000 Yeah.

00:31:03.000 So, one of the things I did was meta analysis.

00:31:06.000 was meta-analysis.

00:31:07.000 So this is a way of taking results of individual experiments that are similar to each other, like telepathy experiments, and putting them all together with a statistical method to see whether independent people are able to replicate the same thing.

00:31:23.000 It's called meta-analysis.

00:31:24.000 Meta meaning it's like an analysis of analyses.

00:31:28.000 And so it answers two questions.

00:31:30.000 One is, if this is really real in a scientific sense, then other independent people ought to be able to do the same experiment and get the same result.

00:31:38.000 So that's one part.

00:31:39.000 The other part is if you do have a lot of people doing the same experiment, then what is the overall result?

00:31:45.000 It's like one gigantic experiment now.

00:31:48.000 So I did a number of meta-analyses, ended up writing a book on it that nobody wanted to buy, so just sat there.

00:31:56.000 And then I was doing experiments on precognition as part of my job.

00:32:00.000 And because of my engineering background, I was using the latest version of machine learning at the time, which was neural networks, and applying it to the data from the Pearlab.

00:32:12.000 To see if, you know, when you do an experiment involving mind matter interaction, usually use a random number generator and you ask somebody, this thing is, you tell them this is going to push out a whole bunch of bits, random bits, and I want you to make more one bits than zero bits.

00:32:28.000 That's your task.

00:32:29.000 So they press a button and they get some kind of result.

00:32:32.000 And now make more zero bits.

00:32:34.000 And now don't do anything.

00:32:35.000 So this is three different kinds of tasks in one session.

00:32:40.000 And so what they were finding was that in general, if you run a lot of people in this kind of task, Yes, their intention makes the bits go in the direction that you want.

00:32:50.000 So you aim high, it goes up, aim low, it goes down, so on.

00:32:54.000 So the question then is not everybody can do that.

00:33:00.000 Some people get the opposite result.

00:33:03.000 Some people get really good at making it go high, but they can't make it go low.

00:33:07.000 So the idea came about that there's something like a signature that was from each person.

00:33:13.000 People had a way of interacting with the machine that made it do certain things that was unique to them.

00:33:19.000 But overall, it worked out.

00:33:21.000 So I started using neural networks to see if I could train a neural network to tell who was doing the task based on how the random bits were working.

00:33:31.000 And it turns out you can.

00:33:33.000 So when I left Princeton, because it was getting way too frustrating, I took that idea.

00:33:38.000 Just trying to get people to work together.

00:33:41.000 Trying to do this multidisciplinary teams.

00:33:45.000 Yeah, and as I told you, the first day I was there for the job, I was told, by the way, you have an impossible job.

00:33:52.000 It's necessary though because this was part of the grant.

00:33:56.000 What you're doing is part of the grant.

00:33:57.000 So you have to do it anyway.

00:33:59.000 And I did it for three years and then I decided I don't want to do that anymore.

00:34:04.000 So I went back to industry, but I specifically told the people I was interviewing with, I want to pursue this.

00:34:11.000 Like this is the beginning of a technology that will have a machine identify who you are and your intention, kind of like Neuralink, except there's no connection.

00:34:22.000 There's nothing going in the brain.

00:34:23.000 It's purely intention.

00:34:25.000 So, I did end up working for a company outside of Washington, D.C., where part of my work was doing exactly that.

00:34:32.000 We're using more advanced neural networks with random number generators and got to the point where we're about to set a patent for this device because it worked.

00:34:43.000 And the head of the organization at the time was a retired general who had a buddy who was an admiral, and he said, The Navy's interested in this, kind of for obvious reasons.

00:34:54.000 They want ways of communicating with submarines.

00:34:58.000 So at that point, we're like right on the edge of doing that, and we get bought by another company.

00:35:04.000 And the new company said, You're not going to work on that anymore.

00:35:08.000 So the wheels internally started, it was like golden handcuffs.

00:35:12.000 A lot of money.

00:35:13.000 I mean, it's a very good position, but I didn't really want to do that anymore.

00:35:17.000 Did they have a profitable issue?

00:35:20.000 The vice president in charge of the lab did not believe that it was possible.

00:35:25.000 Oh, God.

00:35:26.000 They also didn't look at the data.

00:35:27.000 Of course.

00:35:28.000 So he said, no, we're not going to do that. 0.97

00:35:30.000 He doesn't want to be silly. 0.95

00:35:31.000 Yeah. 0.50

00:35:31.000 So I mean, it's so frustrating. 0.50

00:35:33.000 It worked.

00:35:35.000 We have a thing here.

00:35:36.000 It's working.

00:35:36.000 No, he just didn't want to do it.

00:35:38.000 Oh, that's so frustrating.

00:35:39.000 Yeah.

00:35:39.000 So a few years goes by.

00:35:42.000 I kept doing all this stuff on the side now, outside of work, because it was just too interesting to drop.

00:35:48.000 There was a recession.

00:35:51.000 This was 1992.

00:35:52.000 There was a recession.

00:35:53.000 Part of my department was laid off, including myself.

00:35:58.000 Unbeknownst to most people at the time, that the Stargate program, and by the way, it wasn't called Stargate then.

00:36:07.000 There's a lot of code words involved, but it's just known as Stargate, so I'll use that.

00:36:12.000 That program was giving classified contracts to other people around the world, including at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland.

00:36:21.000 So we had a colleague at the University of Edinburgh who was creating an automated Gonsfeld testing system.

00:36:27.000 This is a telepathy system where you press a button and the people are involved and everything is automated.

00:36:33.000 It's kind of getting the human out of the loop except for the two people in the experiment.

00:36:37.000 Well, the man who was developing that unfortunately died.

00:36:40.000 And so this was an unfinished project.

00:36:43.000 So I went to Ed May, who was director of CART Stargate at the time, and I said, well, can I go there and finish the project?

00:36:50.000 Okay.

00:36:50.000 Yeah, sure.

00:36:52.000 So I went to the University of Edinburgh for about a year, and I worked on this project to finish the automated telepathy system.

00:37:00.000 And they've run many, many, many people through that system by now.

00:37:04.000 While I was there, I finished that pretty quickly.

00:37:10.000 I started to develop the presentiment experiment.

00:37:13.000 You had Julia Mossbridge on the show recently.

00:37:16.000 I think she was talking about this experiment where you can see if somebody's body is reacting to something in the future that is unanticipated, that's random.

00:37:27.000 I was developing that at the time.

00:37:30.000 This would have been around 93 or so.

00:37:31.000 Let me tell you a story about The kind of effect that gave me the idea to do this experiment.

00:37:42.000 So, the usual way that people talk about it is that you drive to work the same way every day, thousands of times, and you have a traffic light that you're coming up to, and it's green, and normally you'd start accelerating towards it because you want to get through the light.

00:37:58.000 Something tells you today there's something wrong.

00:38:01.000 I don't know what it is, but I'm going to slow down.

00:38:04.000 And you keep slowing down, the cars behind you are beeping and saying, What's going on?

00:38:08.000 You get almost up to the intersection, and a truck. blast through their red light and you would have been hit broadside if you didn't slow down.

00:38:16.000 So you have this momentary shock of relief realizing that you just saved your life by paying attention to that little voice inside your head.

00:38:23.000 So I thought, okay, let's simulate that in the laboratory.

00:38:27.000 Well, we can't put people in danger, but we can do emotional tests like that.

00:38:33.000 So you wire somebody up looking at skin conductance or pupil dilation or brain waves, all kinds of things in your nervous system.

00:38:41.000 And then you just record that continually, tell them to press a button, and then they're going to see something on a screen.

00:38:48.000 So it could be a very calm picture, or it could be a very emotional picture.

00:38:52.000 Very emotional picture.

00:38:54.000 So, emotion can split in two ways.

00:38:56.000 It could be a very negative picture, like a picture of surgery or an explosion or something, or it could be a positive, like a smiling baby.

00:39:05.000 So, there are two different valences, they're called.

00:39:08.000 And you don't know which is going to come up because a true random number generator is the thing that decides after you press the button, then it decides what it's going to show you.

00:39:17.000 So, nobody knows in advance, including the experimenter.

00:39:20.000 So, I set up an experiment to do that.

00:39:23.000 And by this time, I already left Edinburgh.

00:39:27.000 I had to make a decision then again.

00:39:29.000 Do you want to go back into industry?

00:39:31.000 And I had an offer from Oak Ridge National Labs, which would have put me back in the classified world.

00:39:36.000 Or this other opportunity, which was to work at University of Nevada funded by Robert Bigelow, who's probably best known for the OSAP program.

00:39:46.000 He's been on here before.

00:39:47.000 Yeah.

00:39:48.000 So Bigelow has very generously said, yeah, I'll pay for your way to go into the university there.

00:39:55.000 And I was able to run my own lab.

00:39:57.000 So, one of the very first things I set up then was first of all, I want to continue working on this neural network or machine learning method for making a technology of intention.

00:40:08.000 That was one of the things.

00:40:09.000 But the other one was this presentiment experiment.

00:40:12.000 So, I ran that experiment and it was unbelievably good.

00:40:17.000 Normally, you have little statistical effects.

00:40:20.000 This is like in your face, holy smoke, this is a big thing.

00:40:23.000 Big, big presentiment effects.

00:40:28.000 Like if it's skin conductance, one and a half seconds before you press a button, you wait five seconds.

00:40:35.000 Then it selects a picture.

00:40:37.000 So, one and a half seconds before the picture is selected, if it's emotional, you start to become emotional.

00:40:42.000 If it's calm, you remain calm.

00:40:44.000 So, that difference beforehand we call the presentiment effect.

00:40:49.000 It's your body somehow or unconscious knowing what you're about to see.

00:40:53.000 Just like approaching a light and slowing down, something is telling you something.

00:40:59.000 So we did that experiment, and I told this to one of the guys at the center I was working at, and he told me a story which is far more interesting than not going through a red light.

00:41:12.000 So the story is this.

00:41:15.000 So he used to go hunting with his buddies, and they had a whole bunch of guns.

00:41:19.000 His favorite gun was a six-shot revolver, a double-action revolver.

00:41:25.000 And so the way that he would take all the bullets out, he'd clean the whole thing out, and he'd put in one, two, three, four, five bullets and leave the hammer over the empty chamber.

00:41:33.000 So it wouldn't get jostled accidentally.

00:41:35.000 So he's cleaning the gun.

00:41:36.000 He's putting in bullet one, two, three, four.

00:41:39.000 He picks up the fifth bullet and he has that feeling something about this bullet isn't right.

00:41:45.000 So he didn't put it in, left it aside, put the hammer over cylinder six, and then they went hunting.

00:41:52.000 So it is now two weeks in advance.

00:41:55.000 They come back from hunting.

00:41:56.000 His pistol wasn't used, and a bunch of other guns weren't used, but they do what you should not do after you go hunting, which is starting to drink.

00:42:05.000 So they're all getting a little bit too tipsy and drinking too much, and a fight breaks out between two people there.

00:42:12.000 One of them picks up my friend's gun, points it point blank at somebody else, like right in their face.

00:42:19.000 And my friend is now looking with horror because the trigger's getting pulled.

00:42:23.000 The hammer's going back, the cylinder is turning, and he's trying to intervene now.

00:42:27.000 He steps right in front of the gun, and it goes click the hammer hit.

00:42:34.000 It hit that fifth chamber.

00:42:35.000 Because it rotated from six to five.

00:42:38.000 Whoa.

00:42:39.000 So he realized with horror at that moment that if he had not taken out that bullet, he would be shot in the head.

00:42:45.000 And so afterwards he said, everyone has a bullet with their name on it, and mine is in a safety deposit box, and I know exactly where it is and it's not coming out.

00:42:55.000 Wow.

00:42:56.000 So that's a real life version of this, which is two weeks in advance.

00:43:01.000 In the laboratory, we can only look seconds in advance.

00:43:04.000 Also, you should have the intuition and not go hunting and drinking with psychos that are willing to shoot somebody in the face over an argument.

00:43:11.000 Nevertheless, yeah.

00:43:13.000 So what happens?

00:43:15.000 That's crazy though.

00:43:15.000 Yeah.

00:43:17.000 So that see, this is where we want to go in these kinds of experiments.

00:43:20.000 You need like real life stuff that you can actually test in a controlled way in the laboratory.

00:43:25.000 But there's all kinds of ethical reasons obviously why you can't do that.

00:43:29.000 But I'm pretty sure that if we're able to get something at that level in the laboratory, we would have much, much stronger results than we currently do.

00:43:38.000 Now, when it comes to things like remote viewing and being able to be open and being able to actually Pull it off and actually remote view things that you can prove.

00:43:53.000 What is the state of mind these people are trying to achieve?

00:43:58.000 And what is the protocol for achieving that state of mind?

00:44:02.000 It depends on whether you're naturally talented or not.

00:44:05.000 So, Joe McMonocle and a few others that I know, if you were to ask them at breakfast, can you remote view what I have in a hidden folder over here?

00:44:21.000 They would continue eating and tell you the answer immediately.

00:44:24.000 So for them, it doesn't take much at all.

00:44:26.000 And in fact, what Joe would say, and I have some pictures from what Joe had done, Joe would say that if he knows in the afternoon he's going to do a remote viewing, he'll get all the information in the morning, like instantly.

00:44:39.000 It'll just be there.

00:44:41.000 And then he has to wait until the whole thing plays out, but it's like, bang, you got it.

00:44:47.000 So it's a matter internally of simply knowing, I need to get this information, and it happens immediately.

00:44:51.000 For people who don't have that natural talent, you go through training where and by the way, almost everybody can do this, but it does require some training now.

00:45:01.000 So for an average person, the training typically is to not name an impression, which is really tough.

00:45:11.000 So you have a target, which may be somewhere in the world, maybe a person somewhere, maybe in an envelope, something like that.

00:45:18.000 You're taught you will have something come to mind.

00:45:23.000 You know that that's the target.

00:45:24.000 You have no idea what it is, but you know that there is a target you're going to have to describe.

00:45:29.000 So, name the first thing that comes to mind, but not without naming it.

00:45:32.000 So, you start little scribbles, and then you have more complicated scribbles, and you start adding feelings and senses that are associated with these scribbles.

00:45:42.000 Eventually, you get to the point where it's kind of all gels together, and then you get a coherent image.

00:45:47.000 The problem is that if you tell somebody, I'm going to show you a picture in 20 minutes that you don't know what it is, and you say, Okay, well, just imagine what you're going to get, and you get a flash of yellow.

00:45:58.000 You're instantly going to start thinking of bananas.

00:46:01.000 And once that happens, you can't not think of bananas anymore.

00:46:05.000 So that's what I mean by not naming.

00:46:07.000 So that's one of the very first things that you learn anything that comes to mind that you have a name to is probably not it.

00:46:15.000 It takes practice, but you can get there.

00:46:18.000 Wow.

00:46:18.000 What was the most impressive thing that you ever saw anybody achieve with remote viewing?

00:46:23.000 After I got the clearances, Hal gave me the briefing.

00:46:30.000 That everyone gets, like in skiffs in Congress and presidents, whatever.

00:46:34.000 I got the same briefing.

00:46:36.000 I got the same briefing.

00:46:38.000 So, one picture after the other of experiments by Joe and by a bunch of other people who are not as well known, they basically give almost a veridical drawing of the target.

00:46:52.000 And these are targets that are elsewhere in the world.

00:46:54.000 These are targets that are in envelopes.

00:46:56.000 These are targets that are in skiffs, all different kinds of targets where nothing about the target is known.

00:47:03.000 Like, I will tell you a five digit number which stands for the target.

00:47:08.000 And so all you have is a five digit number.

00:47:10.000 Now give me a description of what I'm going to show you in two hours.

00:47:13.000 And they do it.

00:47:14.000 So you're putting the number to the target?

00:47:16.000 You're just saying like Moscow is number 654.

00:47:21.000 A random number, yes.

00:47:23.000 And just by you attributing that number to whatever this target is, there's a connection made.

00:47:28.000 Yeah.

00:47:29.000 What's happening?

00:47:30.000 Yeah.

00:47:30.000 How's that?

00:47:31.000 So what's that?

00:47:33.000 Yeah.

00:47:34.000 We don't know why that is.

00:47:37.000 There are theories about it, and the theory requires.

00:47:40.000 probably stepping away from materialism as the only model of reality.

00:47:45.000 So there are other models which allow for consciousness, whatever that is, because we don't know that either, but consciousness seems to have a non-local quality.

00:47:54.000 So it's the same kind of non-locality that you talk about in quantum mechanics.

00:47:59.000 So quantum mechanics has entanglement, which are non-local connections between things.

00:48:04.000 It is also through time, so connections through space and time.

00:48:07.000 So we know that that's a real thing.

00:48:09.000 That's what the physical world allows.

00:48:11.000 It is as though consciousness, whatever that is, Also, it has that property.

00:48:16.000 It is non local.

00:48:18.000 So, if you push it hard enough, you end up with something like that movie, Everything, Everywhere, All at the Same Time.

00:48:26.000 That's basically what we're talking about.

00:48:28.000 There's an aspect of reality which we don't ordinarily see, but nevertheless connects everything throughout space and time.

00:48:37.000 And so, if that were not true, then things like precognition wouldn't work so well, telepathy wouldn't work, remote viewing wouldn't work.

00:48:43.000 None of that would work.

00:48:45.000 But nevertheless, it does work.

00:48:48.000 So that is like a more comprehensive way of understanding what reality is like.

00:48:52.000 Do you think this is an emerging quality in human beings or do you think this is an atrophied quality that we used to all have before the development of written language, books, media, all these different things that sort of take away this quiet communication that people probably had with each other?

00:49:14.000 We believe wolves have that with each other.

00:49:16.000 Wolves coordinate somehow.

00:49:18.000 They coordinate attacks on animals, and it could be through learned experience.

00:49:22.000 But how do they remember it and know what to do?

00:49:25.000 And how do each one have specific roles?

00:49:27.000 Like one wolf will chase the elk into a certain corridor, and the other wolves will wait and be on higher ground and come down and attack.

00:49:36.000 They know that they do weird stuff that somehow or another requires some kind of communication.

00:49:41.000 Yes.

00:49:43.000 And they're way more intelligent than we have usually thought.

00:49:46.000 Well, think about how intelligent some dogs are.

00:49:49.000 Yeah.

00:49:49.000 You know, like a Belgian Malinois or something like that.

00:49:51.000 One of those dogs they use for military training.

00:49:53.000 Those dogs are incredibly intelligent.

00:49:55.000 Yeah. 0.67

00:49:56.000 And they need exercise.

00:49:58.000 They need activities.

00:49:59.000 They need things to stimulate them because their brain is like firing all day long.

00:50:03.000 Wolf is that times 100.

00:50:05.000 Yeah.

00:50:05.000 And so most animals, plants, insects maybe have consciousness in some form.

00:50:11.000 And if that consciousness is similar to ours, it is non local.

00:50:15.000 Do you think it's an emerging thing or do you think it's a thing that we've always had?

00:50:20.000 I think that we are shaped as humans by evolution to not pay attention to the there and then.

00:50:28.000 Because if we were paying attention to there and then a lot, then you may not notice that there's a tiger in front of you who's about to eat you.

00:50:35.000 So if you look over the long span of development of whatever it is we are, people who are walking around thinking about Pluto a million years ago would have been pruned out of existence.

00:50:49.000 So only certain kinds of people historically were able to do that.

00:50:52.000 We call them shaman.

00:50:54.000 And the shaman, as part of a tribe, were extremely important because they knew the food would be 10 miles away that way next week.

00:51:03.000 But the shaman typically could not take care of themselves very well.

00:51:06.000 Their minds were off in Pluto, and so the tribe took care of them.

00:51:12.000 And so today we don't have that very much.

00:51:15.000 We're distracted by everything, and we don't have the same kinds of needs that they would have had 10, 20,000 years ago, except in some indigenous societies.

00:51:29.000 So one time I gave a talk for the Australian government.

00:51:32.000 There was a whole bunch of ministers there and people in the military.

00:51:35.000 And I was talking about this sort of stuff.

00:51:37.000 And unbeknownst to me, one of the ministers was representative of the indigenous people there.

00:51:43.000 So I finished this long talk on telepathy.

00:51:46.000 And she came up afterwards and said, Well, we've known this stuff for thousands of years.

00:51:53.000 They would use it, like in the outback.

00:51:55.000 There was no phones, but somehow they were in communications, part of the culture.

00:51:59.000 So they didn't have the distractions and they had a need.

00:52:03.000 So you can imagine a more or less isolated culture for a long period of time.

00:52:08.000 That didn't have tigers immediately always trying to capture them, they had the need to be able to communicate that way.

00:52:14.000 We don't have the need anymore, so it atrophies.

00:52:17.000 Okay.

00:52:19.000 So it atrophies, and so with things like remote viewing, do you think this is almost like a relearning of a skill that people had at one point in time?

00:52:28.000 Yeah.

00:52:29.000 And there's still some people who have some of the genetics because all of this is basically devolving back into talent.

00:52:36.000 Some people have that talent.

00:52:38.000 And you think that's a genetic thing?

00:52:40.000 I think a good chunk of it is genetic, yes.

00:52:42.000 So it's from people in their ancient past that had that quality, had that ability, and they passed on that trait.

00:52:48.000 Yeah.

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00:53:50.000 So, like in Joe McMonocle's case, he was one of those guys who did search and rescue behind enemy lines.

00:53:57.000 And he always came back.

00:53:58.000 His team always found their guy and they always came back alive.

00:54:02.000 And so, well, where did that come from?

00:54:04.000 Well, he used his intuition in the field to decide, let's not go down that road, let's go over here.

00:54:11.000 And he was safe.

00:54:12.000 So, afterwards, when asked, when there was recruiting for people who had some abilities like this, they would ask people like that.

00:54:20.000 Do you find like when you're in combat, you never get hit?

00:54:23.000 Okay, let's talk.

00:54:25.000 The other thing, of course, is did you ever have any experiences beforehand that suggest that maybe you had these experiences?

00:54:32.000 Well, Joe did, and his sister did, too.

00:54:35.000 So there suggests, again, some kind of a familial genetic underpinning for why people have these experiences.

00:54:43.000 So I will continue the story because I'm going to intersect with this genetic part in a minute.

00:54:49.000 So I'm at UNLV doing all kinds of interesting stuff.

00:54:55.000 Somehow the New York Times learns about what I'm doing and they think it's an interesting character story for a parapsychologist to be working in Las Vegas because Las Vegas is sometimes called the largest parapsychology lab in the world.

00:55:11.000 You have a whole bunch of people trying to mentally influence more or less random systems like they are all the time.

00:55:18.000 It's an interesting way to look at Vegas.

00:55:21.000 Well, it kind of is, right?

00:55:23.000 You toss the dice, you want a certain result.

00:55:25.000 Well, we do that in the laboratory except we don't have a lot of money associated with it.

00:55:29.000 I was able to actually get data from one of the casinos, the smaller casinos, because the general manager was interested in what I was doing.

00:55:38.000 So I said, well, could I get all the data as much as you have on jackpots for slot machines and also the table games?

00:55:45.000 And a miracle occurred, and she said, yeah.

00:55:48.000 So she gave us the data, was able to analyze it, and among other things, found that jackpots happened more often and payouts happened were larger.

00:55:58.000 And table games did better between one or plus or minus one day from the full moon, which, by the way, matches magical lore.

00:56:09.000 I mean, all kinds of things are related to when the full moon happens, religious effects and all kinds of things.

00:56:15.000 So I thought, well, that's interesting.

00:56:17.000 More jackpots happen plus or minus the day of the full moon.

00:56:21.000 And so I said to the general manager, maybe this is something you don't want to tell people because they'll all start coming in the full moon.

00:56:28.000 She said, yeah, bring them in.

00:56:31.000 Because all you could do with this information was lose a little bit slower.

00:56:35.000 Because everything is, you know, Vegas.

00:56:38.000 It's not rigged.

00:56:39.000 Yeah, it's not rigged, but it's set up in such a way that the odds are against you.

00:56:43.000 So you would lose slower.

00:56:44.000 But nevertheless, you'd see it in the data.

00:56:47.000 So there's something interesting.

00:56:48.000 Okay, so I get to the end of my time at UNLV and a new door opens.

00:56:54.000 And it's partially because of the New York Times piece, that book that I had written at Princeton that nobody wanted to buy.

00:57:03.000 I suddenly had publishers calling me and saying, do you ever think about writing a book?

00:57:07.000 Yeah, I have one.

00:57:09.000 So I published that book that caught the attention of people at an organization called Interval Research, which was funded by Paul Allen, the co-founder of Microsoft.

00:57:21.000 So Paul Allen was interested in doing what he called developing the wired world.

00:57:27.000 This would have been started in 1990 as a 10-year project.

00:57:34.000 to figure out, given that the internet was going to be a gigantic thing, what do we do with it?

00:57:40.000 So this was people that were poached from Apple and from Xerox PARC and the MIT lab and all lots of places.

00:57:49.000 They brought 100 people together.

00:57:50.000 And so I was invited to do a sci research program there with a budget that was 10 times larger than I had at UNLV and a salary that was three times larger.

00:58:00.000 So I thought, yeah, that's the door that I want.

00:58:03.000 So at Interval, everything was proprietary.

00:58:06.000 because it was all leading into patents that would eventually create things.

00:58:11.000 And so some of the things we take for granted now were developed there.

00:58:13.000 developed there.

00:58:16.000 I was there not so much to develop a psychic technology, but because a small percentage of the projects were considered blue sky.

00:58:25.000 It's kind of to make sure that everybody in the lab realized that we're trying to push the envelope hard in developing new things.

00:58:34.000 So it's always useful to have a couple of speculative projects around.

00:58:39.000 So I worked on that.

00:58:41.000 And then the 10 years was over in 2000.

00:58:44.000 So this is all in Silicon Valley.

00:58:46.000 So a couple of us then left to create a nonprofit which we called the Boundary Institute which would continue the research that we were doing.

00:58:57.000 And then that lasted for about a year because there was the dot-com crash and we couldn't raise money to keep ourselves afloat.

00:59:05.000 I was invited then to join the Institute of Noetic Sciences where I've been now for the last 25 years.

00:59:11.000 So the circle here is here I am in college and looking at this place studying the frontiers of consciousness.

00:59:19.000 And that's where I end up, and I've been there ever since.

00:59:22.000 And no new doors have opened that have attracted me.

00:59:26.000 So I'm there and I've been having great fun at the Institute.

00:59:30.000 I interrupted you when we were talking about numbers being associated with targets, and you were expanding on actionable data.

00:59:38.000 Like, what was the most impressive thing to you that you saw that people achieved with remote viewing?

00:59:46.000 Do you mean from an operational sense or?

00:59:48.000 I mean, just for people listening, like what would be.

00:59:52.000 The most spectacular example of something that couldn't be achieved in the other way?

00:59:57.000 Well, one of the things was actually admitted by President Carter way back when, when they found a bomber, a nuclear bomber that landed somewhere in Africa, which could not be seen from above because of the canopy of all the.

01:00:14.000 And nobody knew where it actually landed.

01:00:16.000 It crashed.

01:00:16.000 It crashed, right?

01:00:17.000 There was a bomb on board that they did not want anybody else to get.

01:00:21.000 And so they asked one of the remote viewers.

01:00:24.000 In fact, this one of the they asked several of them, but one of them specialized in location, which is very difficult for remote viewing.

01:00:31.000 Like if you look at a map and you say, well, you know, put a dot on the map for where it is, that turns out to not be very easy, even for remote viewers.

01:00:39.000 But this one lady was very, very good at that.

01:00:44.000 In fact, she was a map dowser. 1.00

01:00:44.000 She was a dowser. 1.00

01:00:46.000 map dowser so you get a big piece of blank you're saying dowser like those people that walk around with the stick to find water yeah except map dowsing is you have a blank sheet of paper which is linked by association to an You don't want to give anything away, so you don't use a real map.

01:01:04.000 Use a piece of paper which has little X's on it that map onto an actual map.

01:01:09.000 So we asked this lady, her name was Fran, put a mark on the map of where this bomber landed.

01:01:15.000 Of course, she doesn't know it's Africa.

01:01:18.000 She doesn't know anything. 0.60

01:01:19.000 She does her thing.

01:01:21.000 She puts a mark on the map and says, I think it's there.

01:01:24.000 So they go there.

01:01:25.000 And they find it within a couple of kilometers of that spot.

01:01:29.000 Whoa.

01:01:29.000 And so they originally go to that spot.

01:01:33.000 They see natives nearby.

01:01:34.000 So they asked the natives, you know, was there anything crashing out of the sky recently?

01:01:39.000 They said, yeah, something happened over there.

01:01:41.000 That's where it was.

01:01:42.000 Now, what did Carter say when he spoke about this publicly?

01:01:47.000 Carter was asked a very similar question Did you ever encounter anything really weird?

01:01:52.000 So that's the example that he used.

01:01:55.000 Didn't Carter have a UFO experience before?

01:01:57.000 He did.

01:01:59.000 He had that as well, yeah.

01:02:00.000 And Carter was the folklore is that Carter was briefed about something having to do with alien life, and he was so upset that he started weeping.

01:02:09.000 he started weeping.

01:02:11.000 Yes, I have heard those stories, yes.

01:02:14.000 What do you think about those stories?

01:02:15.000 It could well be true.

01:02:17.000 Yeah.

01:02:18.000 I mean, so here there's actually did you ever hear a rumor of what he was told?

01:02:21.000 No.

01:02:22.000 I don't know what he was told.

01:02:24.000 If I had a guess, given that he was a very religious person, it probably was pushing against his religious beliefs.

01:02:30.000 Yeah.

01:02:31.000 That's what I would guess.

01:02:32.000 Well, you know, that was the giant rumor that was going around recently that there was going to be some big disclosure by the White House and that a bunch of pastors had been briefed about this to try to talk to their flock.

01:02:43.000 And you know, get ahead of it.

01:02:47.000 Yeah.

01:02:49.000 Yeah.

01:02:49.000 You heard that, right?

01:02:50.000 What did you think of that?

01:02:51.000 It could well be true.

01:02:52.000 So I know Jacques Valet really well.

01:02:55.000 He's a fascinating guy.

01:02:57.000 Yeah.

01:02:58.000 And I know Gary Nolan.

01:02:59.000 Another fascinating guy.

01:03:01.000 I've worked in circles where we basically all have known each other for a long time.

01:03:01.000 Yeah.

01:03:06.000 And the UFO business, UAP, is very similar in some respects to the psychic side, both in that there's an enormous amount of misinformation.

01:03:17.000 That has been pushed by government, by other places to deflect attention.

01:03:22.000 There are lots of examples of that, which I mean, because of what we know now about the UFO thing, it's relatively easy to see how that could have happened for the Psy business as well.

01:03:40.000 Just one example I go to the Naval War College and I've given a number of lectures, and one of them is on telepathy.

01:03:48.000 How do we know that telepathy actually exists?

01:03:51.000 There's a bunch of different ways of knowing that.

01:03:53.000 And so afterwards, two sub commanders come up.

01:03:57.000 In fact, that's the story.

01:03:58.000 That's the opening story gambit in my book, Science of Magic.

01:04:01.000 So the two sub commanders come up and they say, Well, we have a story to tell you.

01:04:06.000 These are two independent subs.

01:04:08.000 They're the commanders of two subs.

01:04:10.000 So I'm telling them everything we know about telepathy and they say, Well, one time, and we're submerged, we're under maneuvers.

01:04:19.000 A crewman wakes up from a dream and goes to the commander and says, We need to surface because something bad has happened at home.

01:04:26.000 Well, we can't.

01:04:28.000 We're under maneuvers.

01:04:29.000 Next time we can surface, well, then you can call home.

01:04:32.000 So the next time they surface, they call home.

01:04:34.000 And sure enough, when the sailor woke up from his dream, there was indeed something bad happening at home.

01:04:40.000 So both of the commanders had the same story.

01:04:44.000 So I said, Well, does this happen like every Tuesday?

01:04:46.000 No, there were no false positives.

01:04:49.000 It happened once. 0.54

01:04:50.000 And both times it was correct.

01:04:52.000 That's very important to know, not simply that it happens, but it is happening when the submarines are at a classified depth, which means at least 300 meters, probably more, below the surface of the ocean, where it's extremely difficult to get any kind of message there.

01:05:09.000 So it's not electromagnetic.

01:05:10.000 We don't know what that would be.

01:05:12.000 What were the events at home that were bad?

01:05:14.000 They didn't tell me the events at home, but it was Personal events, like in someone's family? 0.57

01:05:19.000 Something in their family, something was going wrong, which turned out to be correct.

01:05:24.000 So one thing is, yes, it tells us something that's important to know from a scientific perspective because they are not reachable by ordinary means.

01:05:31.000 That's the whole point about having a submarine.

01:05:33.000 Very difficult to know where they are and get messages to them.

01:05:37.000 The other thing is that people who are selected to be submariners are psychologically extremely stable.

01:05:43.000 They're not prone to flights of fantasy.

01:05:47.000 They don't have claustrophobia.

01:05:48.000 They don't have any kind of the neuroses that you would imagine that somebody would need to go into a submarine for months.

01:05:55.000 submerged who knows where.

01:05:56.000 submerged who knows where.

01:05:59.000 So it means that this happens to ordinary people, in this case in an altered state of awareness, namely in a dream state, but nevertheless they got it and there were no false positives.

01:06:09.000 So I was a little – whenever I give a talk to a new type of group, especially in the military, always thinking these guys are – they think I'm nuts because I'm telling them stuff that shouldn't exist by any conventional perspective.

01:06:24.000 It's exactly the opposite.

01:06:27.000 Mostly I've talked to officers, like up to generals and admirals and a few levels below that.

01:06:34.000 They're all completely on board.

01:06:36.000 And I began to understand why.

01:06:38.000 That not only are they in life and death situations and that's where these things tend to bubble up, but also they had to trust their intuition in making lots of decisions that affect other people.

01:06:50.000 And they would not have risen through the ranks unless they were really, really good at it.

01:06:55.000 So that's why I was not getting the kind of pushback that I expected to get.

01:07:00.000 Interesting.

01:07:01.000 The Bell Labs connection is very interesting, too.

01:07:03.000 You know, Bell Labs is also the source of myth and folklore about the Roswell crash, that they received things from the Roswell craft and back engineered it.

01:07:17.000 Do you know that whole crazy?

01:07:19.000 I know about those stories.

01:07:21.000 I don't know any, I don't have any direct knowledge of any of them.

01:07:23.000 You never heard anything when you were there?

01:07:26.000 There was a company called the American Computer Company way back in the day, and they just would sell, you know, Windows computers.

01:07:31.000 You could.

01:07:33.000 You'd pick out the hard drive and all this jazz online, they'd build it for you.

01:07:36.000 And they had a whole page of their website that was dedicated to Bell Laboratories.

01:07:43.000 And Bell Laboratories being close to a military base, not because the military base was really to protect New York City, it was really to protect Bell Labs because they were working all this top secret stuff there, and that they had back engineered some stuff from the Roswell crash.

01:07:56.000 It's all like this.

01:07:58.000 Maybe.

01:07:59.000 It's so fun.

01:08:00.000 Why is that stuff so fun?

01:08:02.000 Yeah, maybe.

01:08:03.000 I mean, after all, they invented the fiber optic.

01:08:05.000 Optics and lasers and everything in modern.

01:08:08.000 The fiber optic specifically was one of the things that they discussed as being something that they discovered.

01:08:14.000 I mean, if you go to the to the ordinary history, you can figure out why that happened, not that it didn't involve reverse engineering anything, that there's a long history about why somebody would have gotten to the point to realize that you can do certain things with.

01:08:14.000 Well, there is.

01:08:28.000 That would be interesting.

01:08:30.000 Whether the idea came from somewhere else, that's that, I don't know.

01:08:35.000 It's just interesting.

01:08:36.000 It's fascinating when you find out that there are these very limited access programs that are beyond top secret that even the president can't find out about them.

01:08:46.000 Yeah.

01:08:46.000 And so one of the disadvantages of a special access program is that you could be working next to somebody and are not allowed to talk about what they're doing.

01:08:56.000 And that was happening a lot.

01:08:57.000 So a lot of the Stargate program is now public.

01:09:01.000 There's like four volumes that go through great gory detail on this called the Stargate Archives.

01:09:07.000 Not all of it has been released.

01:09:10.000 A lot of the military stuff will never be released because it involves people and methods and so on.

01:09:17.000 Some of the research side is not released either.

01:09:19.000 I know about that because I was in there.

01:09:24.000 I also, just by virtue of hanging around other people, you learn things that they talk about.

01:09:31.000 I know about some of those things too.

01:09:33.000 I know when you're talking to Hal Puthoff, and occasionally you would ask him something and he'd say, Well, I can't talk about that.

01:09:38.000 Well, I can't talk about this.

01:09:40.000 That's a problem.

01:09:40.000 Right.

01:09:43.000 Does that frustrate you that you can't openly discuss some of these things?

01:09:48.000 Yes.

01:09:48.000 These things?

01:09:49.000 Yes.

01:09:51.000 It was especially frustrating when I was working there because we go into the building and we're doing all kinds of interesting psychic things, and you go out of the building and it not only doesn't exist that if it ever comes up in conversation, you don't say, I can't talk about it because that would mean they know.

01:10:07.000 You have to go along with the game and just agree with everybody else that it's all nonsense.

01:10:12.000 It's nonsense out there, and in here we're working on it.

01:10:17.000 What a weird psychological dilemma.

01:10:19.000 Well, even worse, the whole point about classification is to keep secrets.

01:10:26.000 We were figuring out ways that you can't keep secrets, right?

01:10:30.000 I mean, the whole thing about remote viewing and telepathy and all that stuff, there are no secrets.

01:10:35.000 With the right talented people, nothing can be shielded, nothing.

01:10:41.000 Outside, everything is all about secrets.

01:10:43.000 So one of the reasons I think that these topics still have a stigma attached to them and why there's disinformation is because imagine how this society would work if there were no secrets.

01:10:55.000 Don't you think that technology is eventually taking us in that direction?

01:11:00.000 Yes, but it's not going to be Neuralink.

01:11:02.000 It's not going to be brain computer stuff.

01:11:06.000 It's going to be the real thing.

01:11:09.000 So you think technology will aid us in achieving the real thing?

01:11:13.000 How so?

01:11:13.000 Yes.

01:11:14.000 Okay.

01:11:15.000 So one day we're talking to Gary Nolan.

01:11:20.000 Gary says, have you ever looked at the genetics of highly talented people?

01:11:26.000 There's a lot of folklore out there that there are people who are psychic who come from psychic families.

01:11:32.000 And then there are people who don't have anything psychic and don't have anybody talking about psychic stuff.

01:11:38.000 That suggests genetics.

01:11:39.000 So this was a couple of years ago.

01:11:41.000 We decided to do an experiment that we call Psygenes.

01:11:45.000 We're looking for the psychic gene, more likely a polygenetic trait, but nevertheless something about genetics.

01:11:52.000 So we do an experiment where we recruit 3,000 people using the internet. who say that they're psychic from psychic families.

01:12:00.000 And then we do all kinds of vetting to make sure that they are who they say they are, and they have some talent, and we get their DNA.

01:12:08.000 We only had enough money to find out of the 3,000 people, 13, because we also did face-to-face interviews to make sure they weren't nuts.

01:12:16.000 So we get their DNA.

01:12:17.000 Then we find match controls, and we do standard methods of comparing the two sets of genomes.

01:12:25.000 And so we found something that we didn't expect.

01:12:28.000 Which was that the psychics were all so-called wild type.

01:12:33.000 They didn't have any unusual things happening in their DNA.

01:12:37.000 The controls had a significant effect in an intron sequence.

01:12:43.000 So when you have DNA, it's billions of base pairs.

01:12:46.000 Only about 50,000 of them produce proteins.

01:12:50.000 It's called the exome.

01:12:51.000 It's a portion that creates our body.

01:12:54.000 It's that stuff.

01:12:55.000 All of the rest of it used to be called junk DNA.

01:12:58.000 Because they didn't know what it did.

01:13:00.000 It's the intron sequence.

01:13:01.000 It's the thing between the genes.

01:13:04.000 That now we know is the epigenetic portion.

01:13:08.000 It's the portion of the DNA that turns genes on and off.

01:13:12.000 These controls had a mutation in their intron sequence.

01:13:16.000 So they were turning something off.

01:13:18.000 We still don't know exactly what it is, but something about their makeup was turning off psychic sensitivity.

01:13:26.000 And so one of the people on our project was a specialist in the genetics of societies.

01:13:32.000 Different societies have different genetic makeup.

01:13:36.000 And he found that, to our surprise there too, that countries that were exposed to Christianity, the longer they were exposed, the more this intron sequence was there, the mutation.

01:13:48.000 We started thinking, well, how does that make any sense?

01:13:52.000 And then suddenly we understood the Inquisition had systematically looked for people over hundreds of years who had these abilities and then they killed them.

01:14:05.000 You think about this as a non evolutionary method, but nevertheless a pruning of a portion of humanity.

01:14:13.000 So they were getting rid of people who had this, and what were left over were people who had this no psychic stuff at all.

01:14:21.000 So, yeah, so it's like eugenics in an opposite direction where they weren't trying to pull people for talent but get rid of the talent.

01:14:30.000 And you can see it in the genome. 0.60

01:14:32.000 And this is directly connected to the Inquisition?

01:14:36.000 Because the Inquisition.

01:14:38.000 Inquisition, this is – what were they – like, who were they targeting specifically?

01:14:45.000 They were targeting witches.

01:14:46.000 So the witches were once – I mean, an awful lot of innocent people were caught up in that.

01:14:52.000 But people who were known as healers, who had precognition.

01:14:56.000 Of course, the church at the time was just concerned that somebody is going to come along that's going to attract our followers away from us.

01:15:04.000 Magic was okay within the church.

01:15:08.000 Within the bounds of the church, if a priest is anointed in a certain way, they can do magic.

01:15:13.000 The whole ceremony of the Eucharist is a magical practice.

01:15:16.000 It's okay.

01:15:17.000 Outside of the church, it was not okay.

01:15:20.000 And so it was a very heavy handed way of ensuring that the power would remain in the church. 0.51

01:15:26.000 So by enforcing their Christian ideology, they eliminated anybody that had any alternative powers or visions or anything weird, any other kind of practices. 0.69

01:15:38.000 Yeah.

01:15:38.000 And so the case of the Catholic saints is very interesting.

01:15:43.000 Like Joseph of Cupertino was said to have levitated.

01:15:47.000 And also to do by location, very psychic things.

01:15:50.000 He was very lucky in a sense that he was already a priest.

01:15:58.000 Lots of people, thousands of people saw him levitate.

01:16:02.000 And he made basically a deal was made with the Inquisition that you now need to go to this place out in the middle of nowhere and don't show this anymore to anybody.

01:16:11.000 Because we don't.

01:16:13.000 So when you say he could levitate, like how high?

01:16:16.000 Sometimes drifting into the rafters of churches in front of astonished crowds and even Pope Urban VIII.

01:16:23.000 You could read more about it in his extraordinary life through Franciscan media.

01:16:28.000 Yeah, St. Teresa Live.

01:16:31.000 The patron saint.

01:16:32.000 Go back, please.

01:16:33.000 Often called the patron saint of air travelers.

01:16:37.000 Yeah, why not?

01:16:38.000 We're all levitating.

01:16:40.000 That is the most famous levitator in Catholic history.

01:16:43.000 So there's other levitators?

01:16:44.000 Oh, yeah.

01:16:45.000 Yeah, there's a book called How Come Nobody Could Do That Now?

01:16:48.000 There are stories that people can do it now, but so far in the laboratory we haven't been able to see this.

01:16:54.000 There's a book called.

01:16:54.000 Hmm.

01:16:57.000 Stop, please.

01:16:57.000 Go back.

01:16:58.000 This one, St. Teresa of Avila, a Spanish mystic who famously recorded that her levitations occurred unexpectedly during states of deep spiritual rapture.

01:17:08.000 She described the sensation as a violent force lifting her up from beneath her feet and was so embarrassed by it that she instructed fellow nuns to physically hold her down.

01:17:18.000 Whoa.

01:17:19.000 Dozens.

01:17:21.000 Francis of Assisi.

01:17:23.000 But it's like, do it now.

01:17:27.000 Why do you think people don't do it now and film it on their iPhone?

01:17:30.000 On their iPhone?

01:17:32.000 Well, so the TM organization had a SITI program, the SITI Yogic Powers.

01:17:38.000 And they had this whole thing for a long time about yogic flyers.

01:17:40.000 So one time I went to the university where they were going to show the four best yogic flyers.

01:17:46.000 So we're all excited about that, a few other people.

01:17:50.000 And so there are four young men who go in full lotus position and then hop.

01:17:54.000 I've seen that.

01:17:55.000 So we were like right next to them and seeing hopping.

01:17:55.000 Yeah.

01:17:58.000 And the hopping is pretty good because you're in a full lotus position and you hop around two and a half feet.

01:18:03.000 It's plyometrics though.

01:18:04.000 Yeah.

01:18:05.000 It was hopping.

01:18:06.000 So I asked them, well, why aren't anybody flying?

01:18:10.000 Why is the flying not happening?

01:18:12.000 There they go.

01:18:13.000 Right.

01:18:13.000 So that takes you have to be pretty strong to do that.

01:18:18.000 Yeah.

01:18:18.000 Yeah, but that's all that is.

01:18:19.000 I know guys who can do that.

01:18:20.000 So the Maharishi was asked, why isn't anybody flying?

01:18:24.000 And his response was there's too many people who think it's impossible.

01:18:27.000 So it becomes like a sociological thing.

01:18:30.000 So is that true?

01:18:32.000 I don't know.

01:18:34.000 Do you think it's people are more closed-minded to the ideas than anything outside the norm?

01:18:39.000 Anything like that, levitation, it's nonsense.

01:18:42.000 that levitation is nonsense.

01:18:44.000 So it's like it's permeated our zeitgeist.

01:18:47.000 Yes, it also, I believe that it can act as a So you haven't asked yet why, as a scientist who worked at Princeton and Bell Labs, why am I writing about magic?

01:18:58.000 It's because of a couple of experiences that told me that our understanding of psychic effects now is like in a box.

01:19:06.000 We generally do experiments, we get relatively small effects.

01:19:09.000 They're not gigantic effects, they're not levitation.

01:19:13.000 Well, maybe it's the same thing.

01:19:16.000 Somebody can make a random number generator do something.

01:19:18.000 You need statistics to see it, they're really small, but we don't know the limits.

01:19:24.000 So I've had a few experiences that told me I really don't know what the limits are.

01:19:30.000 And so that brings up this.

01:19:32.000 So bending a bowl of a spoon without force, which I did.

01:19:37.000 So I brought you a spoon.

01:19:41.000 This is the same spoon from 1961.

01:19:43.000 It's this particular.

01:19:44.000 from 1961 it's this particular so i set up this i i went to a uh spoke called spoon bending party because you bent that spoon with your brain or your mind well with your consciousness or whatever it is, something?

01:19:59.000 I mentally did something, but I'll show you in a minute how we did this.

01:20:02.000 So the reason I did this is because I was at interval, and at the time, Russ Targ was working for me.

01:20:08.000 And Russ came back from one of these parties and he said he had bent a rebar, a half-inch rebar, which that, I mean, some muscle men can do that, but you have to be pretty strong to bend a rebar and have it stay there.

01:20:24.000 So I was thinking that is ridiculous.

01:20:27.000 I didn't say that, but I was thinking that's impossible.

01:20:30.000 And the same thing about this.

01:20:32.000 If you bend the neck of a spoon, which is what typically people do, a person can do that just and it's gone.

01:20:39.000 So fast that you can't see it, and then you hide it and you reveal it, and it looks like you bent it.

01:20:44.000 So I went to one of these parties, and I heard that there was a woman there who was able to bend the bowl of the spoon just by touching it, not by itself, but sort of touching it and moving it over. 0.78

01:20:55.000 And I said, I want to see that because it's ridiculous.

01:20:57.000 So I'm standing in front of this woman, and she's holding it like this. 0.94

01:21:03.000 She has a thumb there and a finger here.

01:21:05.000 And so I'm waiting for her to do it, and I'm mimicking her.

01:21:09.000 Because I want to see how she's doing it.

01:21:13.000 You know, is it a trick?

01:21:14.000 So we're doing that and nothing is happening.

01:21:16.000 And then somebody says, Look what you did.

01:21:18.000 And I'm looking, Oh, somebody did something?

01:21:20.000 No, Dean, look what you did.

01:21:22.000 I bent it 90 degrees.

01:21:24.000 And immediately look at my fingers.

01:21:26.000 Did I do this by force?

01:21:27.000 do this by force?

01:21:29.000 No, no indication, no indentation or anything.

01:21:33.000 And so the person said bend it all the way.

01:21:35.000 So it was halfway and I literally went and went all the way.

01:21:41.000 So now I have this spoon and I'm sort of mind boggled by it because I know it wasn't force.

01:21:47.000 I'm not strong enough to be able to do that.

01:21:49.000 Very few people would be able to do it.

01:21:51.000 So I have another spoon just like it and I'm on the plane flying home and I'm trying to do it with the spoon and I suddenly get a huge shock of fear.

01:22:02.000 Because I'm in a metal tin can 30,000 feet up, and I don't know how I did it, and I don't want the wings to suddenly go, because I still don't know exactly how, but I know the metallurgy now.

01:22:16.000 So it turns out that if you're holding it like that, and you can do between 50 and 70 pounds of force suddenly, like an impulse, you will cause the lattice that forms the grain boundary to momentarily soften.

01:22:32.000 And then for about 20 seconds, it will be really, really soft.

01:22:36.000 And at that point, you can literally just take a thumb and finger like this, which is what I did, and squish it over.

01:22:42.000 Instantly, it tightens up again.

01:22:43.000 But there's no explanation for what caused the initial force.

01:22:46.000 No, because I was holding it like this.

01:22:49.000 And I can't tell.

01:22:50.000 Can you do that now?

01:22:51.000 I don't know how I did it.

01:22:51.000 No.

01:22:53.000 I do know, however.

01:22:55.000 Is that the actual spoon you did it with?

01:22:57.000 This is the spoon.

01:22:57.000 Yeah.

01:22:58.000 Can't feel it?

01:22:59.000 So this is a regular spoon.

01:23:01.000 Yeah.

01:23:01.000 I want to show you this other part here.

01:23:06.000 This is the motivation.

01:23:09.000 So I was told, well, more importantly than that, is to take the full spoon that you have because this is what I was working on.

01:23:22.000 Right, this one was already weakened, right?

01:23:23.000 No.

01:23:23.000 No, but I mean, now it is.

01:23:26.000 No, that is the way it is.

01:23:28.000 It's a little spongy.

01:23:29.000 Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

01:23:31.000 I just did that.

01:23:32.000 Just straightened it out.

01:23:32.000 Yeah, you're applying.

01:23:33.000 Yeah.

01:23:33.000 And you have to apply a lot of force to do it.

01:23:38.000 Yeah.

01:23:39.000 A lot.

01:23:39.000 Yeah.

01:23:39.000 I got to really strain.

01:23:40.000 And I have fat thumbs.

01:23:40.000 Yeah.

01:23:42.000 But once it's like that, I could kind of do that pretty much.

01:23:46.000 Well, now, of course, you smoothed it out.

01:23:46.000 Yeah.

01:23:48.000 So now try to do it without it being in that position.

01:23:51.000 With just one finger, one hand.

01:23:54.000 No.

01:23:55.000 Just like this.

01:23:56.000 Hold it like that.

01:23:57.000 Hold thumb underneath, finger on top.

01:23:59.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:24:00.000 And bend it down. 0.96

01:24:01.000 Not the neck.

01:24:02.000 Yeah. 0.63

01:24:03.000 No, it's bending the neck.

01:24:04.000 Yeah.

01:24:04.000 The shell shape resists bending.

01:24:07.000 It's very hard to bend.

01:24:09.000 And more importantly, don't hurt your fingers on this.

01:24:09.000 Yeah.

01:24:12.000 Yeah, I can't do it.

01:24:14.000 Yeah.

01:24:14.000 Well, I might be able to do it if it was more stable, but it's very hard to do.

01:24:17.000 It's not something that's easy to do.

01:24:19.000 With leverage, certainly you can do it.

01:24:21.000 But there was.

01:24:21.000 With a clamp, maybe I could do it?

01:24:23.000 Oh, yeah.

01:24:24.000 But I mean, I would want to use both hands.

01:24:25.000 I'd want to get in there with my.

01:24:27.000 Yeah, but that's not what happened.

01:24:28.000 But to do it with a finger, that's very hard to do.

01:24:32.000 Yeah.

01:24:32.000 And you don't know how you did it.

01:24:33.000 Well, so I was in a very weird state of motivation.

01:24:36.000 Because we were told that if you could do that, Without force, that you would get this button.

01:24:43.000 Yeah.

01:24:43.000 Certified warm former?

01:24:46.000 So it was called warm forming because you're forming this as though it became warm.

01:24:53.000 Because it feels like putty when it actually was warm.

01:24:56.000 That's what I had heard that people do with the necks of them.

01:24:59.000 Oh, yeah.

01:25:00.000 I wasn't interested in the necks.

01:25:02.000 I've seen a guy do that, and he told me it was a trick.

01:25:04.000 He goes, I'm not going to tell you how I do it because I'm not using magic.

01:25:07.000 You could just do it.

01:25:09.000 He said he was doing something like rubbing it with his fingers, and it would like.

01:25:12.000 It was a specific type of spoon or something.

01:25:14.000 But even with this spoon, I mean, you're certainly strong enough to be able to push it over at the neck.

01:25:19.000 The shell shape is very difficult.

01:25:21.000 Yeah, I can't do it.

01:25:23.000 I can't do it.

01:25:26.000 So I was told if I did it.

01:25:29.000 But look, I had to use both hands.

01:25:31.000 Yeah.

01:25:32.000 And you apply leverage and you're going to feel it tomorrow in your fingers too.

01:25:35.000 Nah, I'll be all right.

01:25:36.000 But yeah, this is very hard to do.

01:25:40.000 So if you could do it, you get a button.

01:25:43.000 So the next day, I was giving a talk to this conference.

01:25:46.000 This was held at a conference.

01:25:47.000 And I imagined myself with my suit on with the button.

01:25:51.000 And it was like some kind of weird ego thing where I felt I needed to demonstrate to the people in the audience that I can do this stuff. 0.89

01:25:58.000 It was so strange because I'm not very egotistical and I'm not self aggrandizing either, but there was something about getting this stupid button that put me in a position where I felt if I don't do this, the universe will end. 0.84

01:26:14.000 I mean, that kind of level of obsessiveness. 0.98

01:26:16.000 Really?

01:26:16.000 I needed the button.

01:26:18.000 Well, because I needed the button.

01:26:18.000 For no reason.

01:26:21.000 I know, but that's kind of crazy.

01:26:22.000 I don't know if that's true.

01:26:24.000 It doesn't seem like something you would be interested in knowing you for the brief amount of time that I've known you.

01:26:28.000 That is the strange state I was in.

01:26:31.000 And it's relevant to the idea of how traditional magic is supposed to work.

01:26:36.000 There's a number of factors involved.

01:26:39.000 There's belief and motivation is very important, imagination and a bunch of other things.

01:26:44.000 So it's very difficult in an experiment to create that level of motivation.

01:26:48.000 This is not something I want.

01:26:50.000 This is something I need.

01:26:52.000 I need this to happen.

01:26:54.000 So, well, so I got the button.

01:26:57.000 And the moment I did that and he gave me the button, It all vanished.

01:27:01.000 The whole thing about the need was suddenly, and then everything in the universe was okay again.

01:27:07.000 So that's when you look into how magic works, you build up this sense, and there's two ways of doing it.

01:27:16.000 One is very long term meditation where you can gain certain skills, and the other one I call screaming at fire.

01:27:22.000 So that the image that that evokes you're screaming at fire.

01:27:27.000 It's that kind of motivation which allows things to unfold that otherwise wouldn't happen.

01:27:32.000 This state, have you ever tried to achieve this state again under any other circumstances?

01:27:39.000 Well, yeah, in the airplane, and now I don't do that in the airplane because I don't know how I did it in the first place.

01:27:46.000 Yeah.

01:27:46.000 Right.

01:27:47.000 I have tried several times since with a quarter inch aluminum bar.

01:27:50.000 This is the same kind of bar used in aircraft.

01:27:54.000 It's very strong, very stiff.

01:27:55.000 And you start with it flat and it doesn't rock at all.

01:28:00.000 And so I was able to make it go so that it rocks a little bit.

01:28:04.000 So it moved at probably a fraction of a millimeter.

01:28:06.000 Hmm.

01:28:07.000 Using the same kind of thing but without that crazy motivation because I didn't have a button.

01:28:12.000 Did you film yourself ever doing this?

01:28:14.000 No.

01:28:14.000 No?

01:28:14.000 Has anybody ever filmed themselves doing something like this?

01:28:18.000 There are some films of people doing this.

01:28:20.000 Generally what you see is it breaking.

01:28:23.000 Like a spoon will break here and it'll go bleep.

01:28:26.000 But again, there was a lot of research on this in the 1970s by metallurgists and physicists.

01:28:32.000 Some became convinced that it's real and some came convinced that it wasn't real.

01:28:39.000 So there's some kind of energy, some unknown energy.

01:28:41.000 That you're transmitting to that spoon?

01:28:44.000 I think what's happening is very similar to what's going on with these micro PK events, micro psychokinetic events, that you're changing probabilistic structure at a very deep level, at the atomic level.

01:28:58.000 And that would actually do it here.

01:29:01.000 And that would actually do it here.

01:29:02.000 If you're able to target like a strip across here, you can momentarily cause the grains to shift.

01:29:11.000 And the fact that you didn't know you did it.

01:29:13.000 I just know what I wanted.

01:29:14.000 To happen.

01:29:15.000 But did you recognize it was happening while it was happening?

01:29:18.000 No.

01:29:18.000 No, I was too freaked out.

01:29:19.000 See, that's what I'm saying.

01:29:20.000 No.

01:29:20.000 That's what I'm saying.

01:29:22.000 So the state of mind was so peculiar that you were doing it without even focusing on the fact that you were doing it.

01:29:30.000 I'm pretty sure if I was being analytical at the time, it would not have happened.

01:29:37.000 That's what's so weird about the whole idea of intuition is that if you try it, if you really think about it too much, then you get fucked by your own perceptions in some way. 0.56

01:29:51.000 You skew the thing.

01:29:53.000 You start defining it and you can't see it anymore.

01:29:56.000 It's in a very general sense, it's right versus left brain.

01:30:01.000 Our left brains are analytical.

01:30:03.000 It's what allows us to do this sort of communication.

01:30:06.000 It is maintaining stability about the way that we think the world works.

01:30:10.000 The right brain isn't interested in that stuff at all.

01:30:13.000 It's about form and function.

01:30:14.000 That's where remote viewing and most psychic stuff takes place.

01:30:18.000 It's not simple as left and right brain, but it's the general idea.

01:30:24.000 The second level of our CyGenes test.

01:30:27.000 So they're both published now.

01:30:29.000 So the second one, we need thousands of cases and controls in order to do this right.

01:30:36.000 Like if you're studying schizophrenia, what's the genetic basis?

01:30:41.000 Use tens of thousands of cases, and they know the genes now as a result.

01:30:47.000 We don't have money to do that.

01:30:48.000 So we've got data from 23andMe and from Ancestry and those kinds of places that give you your exome.

01:30:57.000 So, it's not the full genome, it's a portion of it.

01:31:00.000 And we had people fill out a questionnaire of what kind of experiences you had.

01:31:05.000 And then we're able to do an analysis.

01:31:06.000 Is there a correlation between the two?

01:31:08.000 And the answer is yes.

01:31:09.000 We found 212 SNPs.

01:31:12.000 These are single nucleotide polymorphisms.

01:31:16.000 So, it's a piece of the genome.

01:31:19.000 212 correlated with these psychic experiences, one of which correlated with a probability of a million to one.

01:31:26.000 So, that one's probably a real thing.

01:31:29.000 So, what is that SNP associated with?

01:31:32.000 You go into the Atlas and you can say, well, what portion of the body is that involved in?

01:31:37.000 And it's involved with a whole bunch of different things happening in the brain.

01:31:43.000 So anybody who's listening who has $10 million to spare and wants us to figure out what is the rest of the story, we can do that because we have the technology now.

01:31:52.000 Elon, you got some cash.

01:31:53.000 Throw it at this thing.

01:31:55.000 So, do you when you think of consciousness, do you think that we as individual biological entities are interacting with consciousness?

01:32:05.000 And with different levels of achieving certain aspects of consciousness, some of it being genetic, some of it being life experience, education, training, but that we're just these individual biological entities that are tapping into whatever consciousness is.

01:32:25.000 Yes, and no, but you see the subtitle How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality.

01:32:34.000 So I'm viewing this as consciousness and the physical world are.

01:32:39.000 Like a tapestry.

01:32:40.000 They're both necessary for our understanding of reality and they're weaved together.

01:32:44.000 They're both part of it.

01:32:46.000 You can't have just a physical world.

01:32:48.000 Maybe you can't just have a consciousness world either.

01:32:51.000 They're working together.

01:32:52.000 So we are that.

01:32:54.000 Our physical body, our consciousness are woven together into the form that we currently take.

01:32:59.000 So that is essentially a philosophy called dual aspect monism.

01:33:04.000 It says there's one world of which we don't know what that is, but two things split out of it.

01:33:10.000 Mind and matter.

01:33:12.000 But they come out of something that is uniform.

01:33:15.000 It's one thing.

01:33:18.000 So Carl Jung called it the unis mundus, the one world out of which things split.

01:33:23.000 Well, why does it split?

01:33:25.000 His idea was that it splits because of meaning.

01:33:29.000 So meaning is what caused this mind-matter split.

01:33:32.000 And because they come out of the same place, they're tightly correlated, like two sides of the same coin.

01:33:36.000 But meaning being very subjective, right?

01:33:39.000 Like what is – when you say meaning.

01:33:41.000 Yeah, that's a good question because Jung did not clearly define what he meant by meaning.

01:33:45.000 We sort of know what that means, what meaning means.

01:33:49.000 But it's in that theory at least, or the philosophy, it's not clearly defined.

01:33:54.000 So when you get down to this one thing that these two things branch out, what is the one thing?

01:33:58.000 It's the one thing that everything comes from.

01:34:01.000 And also, mind and matter are two aspects that split, but there's an infinite number of other aspects that can split out of this one thing.

01:34:11.000 So maybe it splits into other worlds.

01:34:15.000 It splits into other universes.

01:34:16.000 It splits, we don't know how.

01:34:17.000 It splits into aliens.

01:34:18.000 We don't know.

01:34:19.000 That's a lot of we don't know.

01:34:21.000 Yeah.

01:34:21.000 When it comes down to it comes down anywhere in science, we don't know.

01:34:28.000 The leading edge, we do not know.

01:34:30.000 And it's largely because science doesn't answer why.

01:34:32.000 We don't know why.

01:34:35.000 Why does an electron have a certain charge on it?

01:34:37.000 We don't know.

01:34:38.000 That's the way it is.

01:34:39.000 Science observes stuff and then tries to make theories to explain it.

01:34:42.000 And sometimes we're really good and we can make stuff out of it.

01:34:46.000 But when it comes down to brass tacks, most of the answers are we really don't know.

01:34:50.000 And it gets down to the base of the observable universe.

01:34:52.000 You get to like quantum.

01:34:54.000 Mechanics and quantum theory and particles being connected, spooky action at a distance.

01:35:02.000 You get to the weird stuff about quantum, the quantum world, and particles being in superposition, moving and still at the same time, being connected over vast distances.

01:35:12.000 Like, what?

01:35:13.000 That's magic.

01:35:15.000 Like, whatever the hell that is, that doesn't seem to follow any of the rules of reality that we, like average people, exist in.

01:35:24.000 Yeah, but our average experience is provincial.

01:35:26.000 It's human centric at human time scales.

01:35:31.000 And so imagine a few thousand years ago you'd look up in the dark sky and see a bunch of stars, and a couple of them look kind of fuzzy.

01:35:40.000 Well, you didn't know they were galaxies.

01:35:42.000 Well, you take the James Webb telescope now, and the estimate is at least 3,000 galaxies in the observable universe.

01:35:51.000 So imagine how your cosmology changes between those two.

01:35:54.000 In one case, you're the center of the universe.

01:35:57.000 And there's some smudgy stars, a few of them, five of them about.

01:36:01.000 Now we know we are in the middle of nowhere in some gigantic universe with basically no understanding of the rest of it.

01:36:09.000 Cosmology is changing day by day.

01:36:11.000 So I gave a talk on this recently about how every time a new instrument extends our senses, whole new realms of reality open up that weren't even imagined before.

01:36:22.000 So the reason why I'm continuing to be so interested in what is the nature of consciousness, what is the frontier. is because without consciousness we wouldn't know anything, quite literally.

01:36:36.000 We wouldn't be aware of anything.

01:36:39.000 So in some respects we are creating all of this.

01:36:41.000 creating all of this and so something seems weird because we we don't have the senses yet to be able to actually experience it directly god it's such a fascinating subject and the the concept of consciousness interacting with things less than yes interacting but more so that it is everything is It's like it's part of it.

01:37:06.000 Right.

01:37:06.000 So if you're It's not just experiencing it.

01:37:09.000 It is it in a sense.

01:37:11.000 It is it.

01:37:12.000 Yeah.

01:37:13.000 It is it.

01:37:13.000 Sense.

01:37:13.000 Yeah.

01:37:14.000 If you go all the way to full blown idealism, which is the philosophy that everything is consciousness, everything, the physical world emerges out of consciousness, that's idealism.

01:37:25.000 It turns out that almost all of the founders of quantum mechanics were idealists, which is pretty odd when you think about it.

01:37:35.000 The most successful physical theory developed so far were people who are idealists who felt that everything ultimately was consciousness.

01:37:44.000 Not only that, most of them were also mystics.

01:37:47.000 They read very extensively in Eastern philosophy.

01:37:50.000 They knew about mysticism.

01:37:52.000 They were deeply into it.

01:37:54.000 And that still is true for leading physicists today.

01:37:57.000 Do you think there's ancient truths in all the mystic traditions and all these different things that have existed in religious texts?

01:38:07.000 There is truth there that has been distorted by history and language, yes.

01:38:12.000 And it doesn't help that the – I'm not going to pick on the Catholic Church, but religion in general has said, of course there's magic.

01:38:23.000 Everything is magic, supernatural, fill in the blank, but don't pay too much attention to it, which is kind of strange, especially in the spiritual traditions.

01:38:33.000 I had an opportunity to talk to a famous guru called Sadhguru.

01:38:37.000 What's going on?

01:38:38.000 Okay.

01:38:39.000 I asked Sadhguru, I'm a scientist and I'm studying psychic phenomena, but within the yogic tradition and virtually every other spiritual tradition, you're told not to do that.

01:38:49.000 Don't pay attention to these psychic things.

01:38:52.000 So I said, well, am I wasting my time as a scientist?

01:38:52.000 They're a deflection.

01:38:56.000 I mean, what do I do then?

01:38:58.000 And also, why did a spiritual tradition say that?

01:39:01.000 And his answer was, imagine you're riding in a car and you've never ridden in a car before and you like the feeling of the air as it's going against your arm.

01:39:12.000 Well, it might rip your arm off if you go near a tree.

01:39:15.000 So the underlying story is you're dealing with something which is so powerful, you don't know what you're doing.

01:39:21.000 And it's too powerful, so don't do it.

01:39:24.000 To which I was thinking, well, you're saying I shouldn't be doing this, but that only makes me want to do it more because we need to figure out what this stuff is, right? 0.81

01:39:35.000 The idea that you should just ignore it is ridiculous. 0.86

01:39:35.000 Right. 0.86

01:39:38.000 But that's what the spiritual traditions do.

01:39:40.000 They say ignore it.

01:39:41.000 Is that so they can maintain control?

01:39:43.000 So they can be the purveyors of knowledge and no one goes outside of that realm and questions the ideology?

01:39:51.000 Some of it is that, yes.

01:39:54.000 Certainly within Catholicism, Christianity in general. 0.97

01:39:57.000 Yes, don't do that. 0.98

01:39:58.000 It's written into the catechism.

01:39:59.000 Like, don't do this magic stuff because it's demonic.

01:40:04.000 I mean, that's kind of beaten into your head for a long time.

01:40:07.000 Where did that come from?

01:40:08.000 Why demonic?

01:40:09.000 Because of the potential for it going wrong?

01:40:11.000 Because it's not within the bounds of the church.

01:40:13.000 That's it.

01:40:14.000 Yep.

01:40:14.000 Everything else is demonic and it will get you.

01:40:17.000 And by the way, there's still a lot of people in our own government and in the military who believe that, and that is one of the reasons why UFOs have been deflected.

01:40:26.000 Oh, JD Vance said he thinks they're demons.

01:40:28.000 Yeah.

01:40:29.000 Yeah.

01:40:30.000 I mean, so they're- I can't wait to ask him about that again.

01:40:33.000 The same is true for psychic stuff and UFOs, right?

01:40:36.000 This is demonic.

01:40:37.000 People are like, we shouldn't be doing this.

01:40:39.000 Yeah.

01:40:40.000 So within spiritual traditions, the other reason given is that the power is seductive and people are too weak.

01:40:48.000 And so if you gain this power by one means or the other, you're going to use it badly.

01:40:53.000 And that probably is true.

01:40:55.000 That's why, at least within the yogic tradition, If you're going through the path where you're eventually going to gain the cities, you spend probably the first three to five years not doing that.

01:41:07.000 You learn how to get your ego in check.

01:41:09.000 check.

01:41:10.000 And so that turns out to be an extremely important aspect of the yogic training.

01:41:15.000 And the yoga, by the way, has very little or nothing to do with the whole stretching and the maneuvers, all of that.

01:41:21.000 All of the things that we think of as yoga in the West are designed to get you strong enough so you can sit in a lotus position for eight hours because that's where the action starts in meditation.

01:41:35.000 not the physical side it is a reality of the human condition that if you give people that kind of power and that kind of influence over others a large percentage will abuse it yeah or at least use it to their own for their own personal gain control people and so and to set themselves up as being godlike or so here's what i told sad guru

01:42:00.000 So one of the projects, because of our interest in this Psygenes thing, it's going to be a very complicated series of genes and probably intron sequence and so on.

01:42:10.000 But nevertheless, we have the tools, we can do it if we had enough money.

01:42:15.000 Setting aside the issue about ethics, about whether or not it's a good thing to do, seven years ago, a couple of colleagues and I formed a company called Cognigenics to see if we could use genetic engineering methods to do something like that.

01:42:30.000 Could we significantly enhance perception and cognition and memory and all of that stuff so that you don't need to be a monk going into a cave for 30 years, but you can take a genetic edit and kind of get there quickly?

01:42:42.000 So, again, setting aside for a moment the ethics and the Power seduction and all that.

01:42:47.000 Is it possible?

01:42:50.000 And we now think it's possible because we've developed an intranasal delivery method for RNA interference.

01:42:57.000 You shove it up the nose, you snort it up the nose, it gets into the brain, and it downregulates certain receptors.

01:43:04.000 Is it a one-time treatment?

01:43:06.000 It's a multi-time treatment because it's RNA.

01:43:09.000 So RNA will last for a while, and then months later you'd have to re-up it.

01:43:13.000 You can do it as a one-time treatment.

01:43:15.000 So you could literally blast something up your nose.

01:43:19.000 And it'll affect your ability to do this stuff?

01:43:23.000 In principle, for psychic things.

01:43:26.000 But we see that that's far in the future.

01:43:28.000 What we're doing now as a company is addressing dementia.

01:43:32.000 So we're looking for ways of how do you fix memory loss, especially short-term memory loss.

01:43:39.000 It is related to certain receptors.

01:43:41.000 Turns out to be the same receptors as in psilocybin, 5-HD2A.

01:43:45.000 We can down-regulate them.

01:43:46.000 You saw that study, that article recently about a woman who was I believe she had dementia, but she couldn't speak anymore.

01:43:55.000 She took five grams of psilocybin mushrooms and all of a sudden she could talk.

01:43:59.000 Yeah.

01:44:00.000 So this is doing that without the hallucinations and much, much longer.

01:44:05.000 Psilocybin will get in and out of your body pretty quickly.

01:44:09.000 The RNA interference will come up and then stay for about a couple of months and then slowly begin to decline.

01:44:18.000 So you would need to take this treatment, this intranasal treatment, probably every two or three months.

01:44:27.000 And we don't know about the dosing yet.

01:44:29.000 We've done studies with mice and rats and now with monkeys, so we know it works in a primate brain.

01:44:35.000 The next couple of steps.

01:44:37.000 When they do the studies with monkeys, what happens?

01:44:40.000 Well, there are two things that you look at.

01:44:43.000 Well, first of all, you want to make sure that it actually gets into the brain.

01:44:46.000 So you do a radioactive tag on the compound itself and then use a PET scan, depositron emission tomography, and you can then see does it actually get out of the nose and go into the brain?

01:44:58.000 The answer is yes.

01:44:59.000 We can track where in the brain it's going.

01:45:01.000 We mainly want it to get down to the limbic system because that's where the hippocampus is and where memory is encoded.

01:45:08.000 And we know from our studies with mice and rats, you get 100% improvement in memory in mice and rats that are either aged or normal.

01:45:18.000 A normal mouse will get 100% improvement in memory.

01:45:23.000 Exactly at the same time, they'll get an almost 100% reduction in anxiety.

01:45:29.000 So as you think about a treatment for dementia, Dementia patients get very anxious, so you want to calm them down and improve their memory.

01:45:36.000 This does both in one shot.

01:45:38.000 Wow.

01:45:40.000 Yeah.

01:45:41.000 And what does it do to regular people with no ailments?

01:45:46.000 We don't know yet.

01:45:47.000 No one's tried?

01:45:48.000 Well, we don't have permission from the FDA to do clinical trials yet.

01:45:52.000 Wink, wink.

01:45:54.000 If you ask the people.

01:45:57.000 Someone must have done it.

01:45:58.000 No, we haven't tried it yet.

01:46:00.000 Not a single person has said, shoot it up my nose?

01:46:02.000 That would admit it.

01:46:03.000 No.

01:46:04.000 Oh, that would admit it.

01:46:04.000 Yeah.

01:46:05.000 Yeah.

01:46:06.000 That's my point.

01:46:07.000 So it actually has pretty much the same effect as psilocybin, but it is only doing this one receptor.

01:46:07.000 Yeah.

01:46:15.000 Because when you take psilocybin, there's all kinds of things going on, which is one of the reasons you get hallucinogenics.

01:46:20.000 So we wanted to do this for people who probably wouldn't take a hallucinogen.

01:46:25.000 It would probably come on faster and it would last a lot longer.

01:46:29.000 And for some cases, like if somebody was terminal and they're losing their memory, you can make this a permanent. at it as well.

01:46:36.000 I wonder what would happen if you combine the two.

01:46:39.000 Which two?

01:46:40.000 The RNA and psilocybin.

01:46:43.000 Well, once we get this approved, we'll have you do it and see what happens.

01:46:48.000 Yeah, let's find out.

01:46:49.000 Yeah.

01:46:50.000 Yeah.

01:46:51.000 Well, yeah.

01:46:52.000 I'll come back and quit the podcast immediately.

01:46:54.000 Like, I've got other things to do.

01:46:56.000 Yeah.

01:46:57.000 No, this would only last for a while.

01:46:59.000 I mean, we're specifically making it temporary because if somebody had a bad trip on it, essentially, it'll eventually go away, and so it's not a big deal.

01:47:07.000 But if you continue to do it, Like brushing your teeth.

01:47:10.000 Yeah.

01:47:11.000 Well, so one of our concerns is that because this is going to improve memory, if a normal person who doesn't have dementia would it be something that kids are going to try to just snort all the time?

01:47:23.000 So it's like Ritalin, that would not be good.

01:47:23.000 Right.

01:47:27.000 So this would - Or would it be awesome?

01:47:30.000 Let's put it this way: it probably will not ever be OTC.

01:47:34.000 You're not going to be able to buy this at the drugstore.

01:47:39.000 To be prescribed.

01:47:40.000 You also, you will need a special kind of delivery system.

01:47:40.000 You have to be prescribed.

01:47:49.000 So, when you think of a nose spray, it's atomizing the stuff.

01:47:52.000 It gets down in the lower nose.

01:47:54.000 In order to get it into the brain, you need to shoot a stream all the way up to the back.

01:47:59.000 It's like the cleft right up here, and just beyond that is a bone that separates it from the brain.

01:48:06.000 A compound gets through that bone.

01:48:08.000 So, and it has all to do with how big is the compound.

01:48:12.000 Right.

01:48:13.000 So similar to like if you snort cocaine, it'll get in there, it gets in your brain because it's a certain size.

01:48:19.000 But you can imagine if this just becomes a performance enhancing substance that normal people take, you know?

01:48:25.000 That could very likely happen.

01:48:27.000 Wow.

01:48:27.000 Yeah.

01:48:28.000 Yeah.

01:48:28.000 So, I mean, we're being very careful at this point.

01:48:32.000 We have people on board who are ethicists to say because we're talking about enhancing human performance and human cognition and perception.

01:48:40.000 Can we enhance it all the way out into extrasensory perception, ESP, meaning psychic stuff?

01:48:47.000 We don't know, but as I said, once we find what the polygenetic trait is.

01:48:52.000 This is the story of the lady who did the mushrooms.

01:48:54.000 Yeah, so a case study published in Frontiers in Neuroscience.

01:48:58.000 In neuroscience, researchers focused on an 80 year old Japanese American woman with Alzheimer's.

01:49:02.000 Her condition had declined over the last decade and was reduced to urinary incontinence, speaking in single syllables, and dependence on caregivers for mobility and support.

01:49:13.000 She was then given a five gram dose of magic mushrooms.

01:49:15.000 During the initial phase, she was agitated, sweated profusely, and entered a prolonged sleep state that suggested unconsciousness.

01:49:22.000 But around hour 19, she began speaking in full sentences, recalling life events she had been unable to articulate for years.

01:49:30.000 In the days and weeks that followed, more incredible changes emerged.

01:49:33.000 She regained urinary continence even in the evenings and began dressing herself.

01:49:37.000 She was able to make and maintain eye contact, remember social interactions, emotionally respond to others, and hold lucid conversations.

01:49:45.000 And that's one dose.

01:49:45.000 Right.

01:49:47.000 Yeah.

01:49:48.000 So, what happens when you take psilocybin?

01:49:52.000 The first effect is that it is a 5 HD2A agonist, it means it's souping up that particular receptor.

01:50:00.000 But the brain notices that and then it down regulates.

01:50:03.000 You see what it says here.

01:50:04.000 A subsequent three gram dose of psilocybin was given to the patient and was followed by increased verbal expression, humor, and greater walking agility.

01:50:14.000 Miraculous as the mushrooms may seem, the study authors note that the patient's improvements were temporary and psilocybin did not reverse the disease as her neurodegeneration remained.

01:50:26.000 They did not specify exactly how long the improvements lasted.

01:50:30.000 However, the research does demonstrate that some function believed to be irrevocably lost to late stage dementia.

01:50:36.000 May not be gone but merely inaccessible, and that a mushroom trip has the potential to recover it, albeit briefly.

01:50:43.000 But it sounds like this would be even better at that.

01:50:46.000 Well, this has the hallucinatory part in the beginning.

01:50:50.000 The reason why we think this works and the reason why we're doing a down regulation of 5 HD2A is because when you take psilocybin, it soupes it up.

01:51:00.000 It's an agonist, it makes it more expressed.

01:51:02.000 That's when all the hallucinations and stuff happens.

01:51:05.000 Then the brain compensates.

01:51:07.000 And it starts pushing it back down.

01:51:08.000 So it starts suppressing 5 HD 2A.

01:51:11.000 We're doing that directly.

01:51:13.000 So we would guess then that if the reason why this happened is because of the reduction of hyperactivity, which is what's involved with neurodegeneration, that it would happen immediately.

01:51:25.000 So you don't need that initial push, that you're starting right from the get go with the reduction in this 5 HD 2A.

01:51:32.000 God, that would be a phenomenal game changer for people that are suffering from this.

01:51:36.000 Yes.

01:51:36.000 And also, the same platform that we use to deliver this particular.

01:51:42.000 Compound can be used with lots of other compounds.

01:51:45.000 So, the more that psychiatry learns about neurodegeneration and about memory loss and all that, we can just change the compound and change the receptors.

01:51:56.000 So, yeah, we can do it now.

01:51:58.000 Wow.

01:51:59.000 Yeah, so this now links back into the Institute of Noetic Sciences PsyGenes project, which launched this thing.

01:52:07.000 So, we're launching it in a very pragmatic way, which could help a lot of people.

01:52:12.000 Keeping in mind that we can go into a place where we're beginning to enhance people, that's going to take a while to get there.

01:52:21.000 And again, we think carefully about is this a good thing or not?

01:52:25.000 I think it's a good thing.

01:52:26.000 Why would it be a bad thing?

01:52:26.000 Of course.

01:52:27.000 I think it's a good thing.

01:52:29.000 What would be the bad part of it when you try to look at it in the worst case scenario?

01:52:34.000 What I have in mind is every time a new technology came along, people think this is the best thing ever. 0.99

01:52:40.000 Like I met the guy who developed trans fats. 0.99

01:52:43.000 Who thought he was going to help a lot of people because then they wouldn't, you know, fat wouldn't be so bad, turned out to be really bad. 0.95

01:52:49.000 Yeah.

01:52:50.000 And so unintended consequences when we're developing new things.

01:52:54.000 Are there side effects that have been observed?

01:52:57.000 Not yet.

01:52:59.000 It's partially because when you do preclinical work, there's only so many things you can infer about what a mouse or a rat is doing.

01:53:06.000 Now that we're doing monkeys, we do know that there were two monkeys in our test that were very aggressive.

01:53:13.000 You get near them, they'd bare their teeth, they don't want you to deal with them.

01:53:17.000 They took the compound and then they were chill.

01:53:20.000 For two days afterwards, having a single dose, those two monkeys were no longer aggressive.

01:53:26.000 So that's the angiolytic effect.

01:53:28.000 We could fix society.

01:53:30.000 Yeah.

01:53:31.000 Yeah, it's a nasal spray.

01:53:32.000 Can you imagine that?

01:53:34.000 Yes.

01:53:34.000 Just give it to everybody and everyone just gets along?

01:53:36.000 Well, I mean, you probably need permission to do that.

01:53:40.000 Right, but I mean, if you just told people that this is available and we no longer have to be in conflict with each other, that would be nice.

01:53:48.000 And we might be able to connect with each other on some new realm.

01:53:51.000 That would be very nice.

01:53:52.000 Yes.

01:53:54.000 Yeah.

01:53:54.000 And so it sounds like the pluses.

01:53:57.000 Way, way outweigh what potential negatives could be.

01:54:02.000 We would need to figure out first what the unintended consequences are.

01:54:05.000 I like how you think, like a real scientist.

01:54:07.000 Yes.

01:54:08.000 The brain I'm thinking like a person's like, let's go, give it a shot.

01:54:11.000 No, the brain always compensates.

01:54:13.000 Of course.

01:54:14.000 For any kind of drug, it compensates immediately.

01:54:16.000 There's no biological free lunch.

01:54:17.000 No.

01:54:17.000 So something would happen and maybe good, it might be bad, we don't know yet.

01:54:22.000 Right, particularly for people that don't have a problem.

01:54:24.000 Right, right, right.

01:54:25.000 We're targeting people who do have a problem, and so far there's no treatment for it.

01:54:30.000 I mean, there's a couple of things that are mostly stimulus, stimulators, and they don't work that well.

01:54:36.000 My dad died of dementia.

01:54:37.000 I saw that happen.

01:54:39.000 So I'm thinking if I can prevent that in anybody else just to get short term memory back.

01:54:46.000 Because my dad had five degrees, including a law degree, made his living as a graphic artist.

01:54:52.000 So he was very intellectual but had a very pragmatic kind of job.

01:54:56.000 By the time he had advanced dementia, he could no longer watch TV.

01:55:01.000 I said, well, why not?

01:55:02.000 He couldn't track what was happening in a show.

01:55:06.000 He couldn't listen to audiobooks.

01:55:08.000 I mean, that's not good.

01:55:10.000 What a terrible thing for someone who just relies on their mind.

01:55:13.000 So I rely on my mind.

01:55:13.000 Yeah.

01:55:16.000 I would take this stuff in a second if something like that started to happen.

01:55:22.000 So, yeah, I'm thinking ahead.

01:55:24.000 Yeah.

01:55:24.000 So if we have time, I'd like to explain one other.

01:55:30.000 Experience that I had, which led me into thinking more about magic.

01:55:35.000 Can I ask you one more question about this?

01:55:37.000 If you developed some sort of a compound that gave real psychic ability, like something that was just undeniable, you could literally communicate with people, and you found out that this is something that you could give people as a supplement or some sort of a medication, what would you do with that information?

01:55:37.000 Sure.

01:56:04.000 Would you pause?

01:56:08.000 Yeah.

01:56:08.000 Yes.

01:56:09.000 Yeah.

01:56:10.000 I would pause for the same reason that Sadhguru said this is not a good idea.

01:56:15.000 Because, like I told him, we were doing this research on telepathy, we might be able to make people super telepathic.

01:56:22.000 He said that would be a bad idea.

01:56:25.000 Why?

01:56:25.000 Because we normally think of being telepathic as receiving other people's thoughts, but it's actually a two way street.

01:56:34.000 You can then inject thoughts.

01:56:36.000 And control people.

01:56:37.000 Yeah.

01:56:38.000 And he said that that would be such a seductive power for most people that unless they had significant training beforehand, you don't want to do that.

01:56:50.000 to do that significant training like you were talking about the monks ego out of the way yeah go through meditation And one of the things, one of the reasons why I'm interested in the noetic sciences in general is that when somebody has an experience, whether it's psilocybin or some other method, oftentimes there's a personality transformation.

01:57:11.000 The personality transformation is like the positive side of PTSD.

01:57:15.000 Like their mind is blown, they become pro social, which is the fancy term meaning they suddenly become compassionate.

01:57:22.000 They become more interested in service.

01:57:24.000 They want to help others. 1.00

01:57:26.000 They could have been a complete jerk beforehand. 1.00

01:57:29.000 Something changes and it changes in a flash and it sticks. 0.99

01:57:34.000 Well, we probably ought to understand why that happens.

01:57:37.000 What is it about simply getting a larger picture of who and what we are and what the nature of the universe is?

01:57:44.000 That becomes really, really important to understand.

01:57:47.000 So we know what happens.

01:57:48.000 We don't know why it happens.

01:57:49.000 Well, that's one of the most fascinating aspects of the psychedelic experience is the ego death.

01:57:54.000 Right.

01:57:54.000 Yeah.

01:57:56.000 So it's also like you would have to have the two of them together.

01:58:01.000 If you had ego death induced by psychedelics along with some sort of supplemental medication that allowed you to achieve legitimate psychic ability.

01:58:13.000 Yeah, I see.

01:58:14.000 You really want to do this.

01:58:15.000 I'm fascinated by it.

01:58:18.000 I would be weirded out by it for sure.

01:58:20.000 I mean, I don't know how I would function if I was the only one who had it.

01:58:25.000 I don't think that would be a fun place to be.

01:58:27.000 You would have to be prepared.

01:58:29.000 Yeah, I think it would be a real struggle.

01:58:33.000 Yeah, I mean, think about in the old days when there were mystery schools, like in ancient Greece.

01:58:37.000 So everybody would get the drug, they'd have this opening.

01:58:40.000 Some people would be opened and more or less stay open, but it was that drug experience that did an ego change.

01:58:50.000 So you may be right that you need to have some kind of a noetic whatever in order to.

01:58:57.000 Push the ego down far enough to realize that we are all interconnected.

01:59:00.000 It's all one thing.

01:59:02.000 I think that idea has to get out there more.

01:59:06.000 I think it is more now than ever before.

01:59:09.000 It's more of a common discussion that we're all connected.

01:59:14.000 I feel like over the last few decades, it's much more acceptable to discuss this concept of us being all connected without being dismissed as being a kook.

01:59:26.000 So this, which is part of the whole thing of like, if you don't believe it, if you're completely skeptical, you're blocking it, right? 0.66

01:59:26.000 Yeah. 0.66

01:59:35.000 And then we have to kind of understand that there's real evidence that we are all connected.

01:59:40.000 And this biological being that we live in, that is, you know, millions and millions of years of evolution have led us to this position.

01:59:51.000 And over the last, you know, 20,000 years, it's filled with barbaric acts and tribalism.

01:59:57.000 Like, all this stuff is encoded in us.

01:59:59.000 And we have to figure out how to.

02:00:01.000 Squash that and how to move past it, move into whatever the next stage of the human experience is.

02:00:07.000 Yeah, we had better do that.

02:00:10.000 And it better involve ego death.

02:00:13.000 It can't just be the psychic ability because then you're just going to have manipulative psychopaths that have the ability that other people don't. 0.79

02:00:21.000 And of course, all these crazy people that want to control the world and they're going to be the ones that first have access to it.

02:00:28.000 Yeah, and I think it's not exactly ego death.

02:00:31.000 It's not a complete, right?

02:00:32.000 You still need some ego because we're embodied systems we need to operate on.

02:00:36.000 Yeah, it's a bad term.

02:00:36.000 It's more like a recognition of like you teach a kid, you're really, really angry.

02:00:40.000 That doesn't mean you need to act on it.

02:00:43.000 You recognize it.

02:00:44.000 On it, you recognize it, and like mindful meditation, you're learning that you yeah, you can control it.

02:00:50.000 Control of the ego is a better term.

02:00:52.000 Recognition of it and control.

02:00:53.000 And understanding of it.

02:00:55.000 Having like legitimate methods that you use to keep it in check.

02:00:58.000 Yeah.

02:00:58.000 Right.

02:00:59.000 But it's also like sort of encoding in people the discipline to be able to do that because that's also involved in controlling the ego.

02:01:09.000 Technology emerges and this research continues to bear fruit, you're looking at the potential for a completely different way of human beings interacting with each other.

02:01:28.000 Right.

02:01:28.000 Completely different paradigm.

02:01:29.000 Like society moves into a totally different realm.

02:01:32.000 Not everybody are interested in that.

02:01:32.000 Right.

02:01:36.000 Right.

02:01:37.000 A lot of people are very uninterested in that.

02:01:39.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:01:40.000 and they would fuck with their business. 0.99

02:01:43.000 Like in, we don't want that. 1.00

02:01:45.000 Right.

02:01:46.000 And we don't want you to have it either.

02:01:48.000 Well, that's a fear.

02:01:49.000 That's a fear that, like, if you Had some real breakthroughs that were somehow or another going to be a problem for powers that be.

02:01:58.000 Yeah, that's a problem.

02:02:01.000 Like when you hear about these scientists that are all involved with the UAP story wind up dead or disappearing, and people say, well, statistically, this can't be a coincidence.

02:02:11.000 This is a little too weird.

02:02:12.000 It's gotten to some weird number where you're going, we have to look at this.

02:02:17.000 So you hear the actual White House is now talking about it.

02:02:20.000 Like, we have to look into this.

02:02:21.000 So the way I keep myself safe.

02:02:23.000 And our other colleagues, we publish everything we do.

02:02:28.000 It's all public domain, so we're not doing anything that's secret.

02:02:32.000 And the long term consequences, most people don't think about at all.

02:02:38.000 So that, too.

02:02:41.000 I mean, there are all kinds of technologies that are being developed that may have bad consequences in the future.

02:02:45.000 Not that many people, except maybe professional ethicists, are thinking about is this a good thing or not.

02:02:51.000 Something comes along like, let's for lack of a better example, let's use GLP 1s.

02:02:59.000 GLP 1s, nobody heard about Ozempic and Wagovi just a decade ago.

02:03:05.000 Now all of a sudden it's a multi trillion dollar industry.

02:03:07.000 It's gigantic.

02:03:08.000 There's something like 39 million Americans around these GLP 1 drugs.

02:03:13.000 Imagine if something comes along that is beneficial, I'm sure that's beneficial to obese people, but beneficial in a cognitive way.

02:03:25.000 For people, that you have real science, real science actually achieves a result.

02:03:33.000 This result becomes a supplement and it becomes something widely used and spread.

02:03:39.000 Imagine the forms of control that are used by society, that are used by governments, that are used by mass media, that are used by corporations in order to pass whatever regulations they want.

02:03:53.000 When you see politicians talking, when you see the real agenda behind it, all of it would evaporate. 0.98

02:04:00.000 All the bullshit, all propaganda would be completely useless. 1.00

02:04:03.000 You would enter into a completely new cooperative society where all the parasites and psychopaths and sociopaths would literally be exposed and you'd have to deal with them. 1.00

02:04:17.000 You'd probably be terrified to realize how many of them are in control of so many institutions and how much of what you've been told is complete horseshit, how many nonprofits are a scam, how many different things that are happening are just happening in order to maintain control. 0.97

02:04:32.000 That's why you can't do this overnight.

02:04:35.000 Right.

02:04:35.000 So the justice system would be totally different.

02:04:39.000 Be totally different.

02:04:41.000 Politics would be totally different.

02:04:42.000 Everything would be totally different.

02:04:43.000 Economics, everything.

02:04:46.000 Resources, everything.

02:04:47.000 So there is a TV show kind of with this plot now, the one called Pluribus.

02:04:55.000 Right, the science fiction show, which I think is doing a great job in illustrating then that people...

02:04:55.000 Yes.

02:05:00.000 But it's a nightmare.

02:05:01.000 Well, people who are involved in the hive mind, it's like suddenly everything is fine.

02:05:07.000 Yeah, I don't like it. 0.96

02:05:08.000 I like the lady that gets drunk and yells at everybody. 1.00

02:05:11.000 Yeah, because it's a nice story. 1.00

02:05:11.000 Well, because... 1.00

02:05:14.000 It's also more recognizable.

02:05:16.000 It's a human.

02:05:17.000 She's us.

02:05:18.000 Yeah, she's us.

02:05:19.000 And of course, there are stories like the Borg in Star Trek.

02:05:23.000 The way hive mind is portrayed is horrific.

02:05:27.000 Why?

02:05:27.000 Because it's ego dropping.

02:05:30.000 That's why.

02:05:30.000 It also eliminates creativity, individual expression.

02:05:32.000 We don't know that.

02:05:35.000 We don't know that.

02:05:36.000 We think of it in the show, it does.

02:05:37.000 In the show, everybody just becomes a worker.

02:05:38.000 No, in pluribus.

02:05:39.000 No, not a worker, but I mean, they're all connected.

02:05:43.000 They're all like, yeah, that means everybody can have the skill of a surgeon.

02:05:46.000 Everybody, right?

02:05:47.000 So you have a bunch of naturally creative people out there.

02:05:51.000 Well, they all have it now.

02:05:53.000 That's the glass half full version of it, right?

02:05:53.000 Right.

02:05:56.000 Right.

02:05:56.000 Yeah.

02:05:57.000 So would we collectively even be more creative?

02:06:00.000 Right.

02:06:00.000 If instead of asking perplexity a question, you just ask the universe a question.

02:06:06.000 You ask the collective.

02:06:08.000 You ask the collective how to fix a carburetor.

02:06:10.000 Yeah.

02:06:10.000 And then you know how to do it.

02:06:13.000 Yeah, so that's so I mean, from a point of view of efficiency and peace and all that stuff, I think it'd be great.

02:06:20.000 Well, it's also people have to look at it this way just what you have now by having a phone and being able to, like I said, just ask perplexity any question on human history, any question on mathematics, coding, anything.

02:06:34.000 It gives you all the available information instantaneously in your phone.

02:06:38.000 Right. 1.00

02:06:38.000 If you just said that to someone 30 years ago, they would say you're fucking crazy. 1.00

02:06:43.000 You look at all the depictions in science fiction about the future. 0.99

02:06:45.000 None of them involve the internet.

02:06:47.000 None of them involve phones. 0.62

02:06:48.000 None of them involve devices that you carry around that have 24 hours of fucking battery life that can essentially do whatever you want take pictures, make videos, record audio, download movies, watch them instantaneously. 0.96

02:06:59.000 You could fucking do anything in these things. 0.96

02:07:07.000 Right. 0.99

02:07:07.000 And we're just accustomed to it. 0.99

02:07:08.000 It's just normal.

02:07:09.000 Imagine a society where this technology that you're developing.

02:07:13.000 Imagine this, you continue this research 10, 20, 30 years.

02:07:18.000 What do we have?

02:07:20.000 What does this look like?

02:07:21.000 What does you and me even talking look like?

02:07:25.000 One of the reasons why I insist on doing these things in person, because I think it's a very different experience.

02:07:32.000 I just intuitively, it just feels different when someone's in the room.

02:07:36.000 When you're having a conversation with someone in the room, I've had great conversations with people through Zoom, like with Edward Snowden, when we do podcasts, we have to do it that way for obvious reasons.

02:07:46.000 When you and I are talking right now, there's something else going on.

02:07:46.000 But there's something missing.

02:07:52.000 Our minds are connecting and we're connecting somehow with all the people that are listening.

02:07:58.000 There's this weird thing that happens and it happens when people are in proximity to each other, when they're right in the same room with each other.

02:08:05.000 There's something to that.

02:08:06.000 Right.

02:08:06.000 So now think of the downside, the compensation for having phones everywhere.

02:08:10.000 Oh, yeah.

02:08:11.000 So you talk to teachers about it and they are running scared.

02:08:17.000 Sure.

02:08:17.000 Right.

02:08:17.000 Kids don't know how to write anything anymore.

02:08:20.000 No attention to sound.

02:08:21.000 And not only that, if you start relying on perplexity or any other kind of AI, you're in serious trouble because those things are not perfect.

02:08:28.000 Right.

02:08:29.000 Right.

02:08:30.000 They have hallucinations.

02:08:31.000 Yes.

02:08:31.000 They give you bad information.

02:08:32.000 Right.

02:08:33.000 Right.

02:08:33.000 They have hallucinations.

02:08:35.000 They give you bad information.

02:08:35.000 Yeah.

02:08:36.000 Right.

02:08:37.000 I'm sure you saw this.

02:08:38.000 There was a gentleman who was recently a lawyer involved in a case and he was citing these.

02:08:45.000 Oh, yeah.

02:08:46.000 Yeah.

02:08:46.000 You know that story?

02:08:47.000 So he's citing various cases that just didn't exist.

02:08:49.000 Yep.

02:08:50.000 And he had gotten them from AI.

02:08:52.000 Yeah.

02:08:53.000 It probably looked structurally correct, except it wasn't actually real.

02:08:57.000 He thought he had it.

02:08:58.000 Like, beautiful.

02:08:59.000 I got this case wrapped up.

02:09:00.000 And the judge was like, none of these things you're saying have happened.

02:09:04.000 They're not true.

02:09:05.000 That's some other world.

02:09:06.000 Bizarre.

02:09:08.000 Well, hopefully that'll get ironed out.

02:09:10.000 But the point is, you're relying now on the device to do all the thinking for you.

02:09:16.000 And you're not absorbing much of that information.

02:09:19.000 You're not absorbing it the same way.

02:09:21.000 I can say as a scientist that AI is making my job much, much, much easier.

02:09:26.000 So I use Claude Code a lot.

02:09:28.000 We use it also in our genetic research.

02:09:32.000 It is making things more efficient because basically for coding up until things like Claude Code, it took a lot of skill and time.

02:09:42.000 To be able to write something that did what you wanted to do.

02:09:44.000 But you're already a disciplined thinker.

02:09:46.000 You're not a developing mind.

02:09:48.000 Well, not only that, but when I ask AI to help me write something, I immediately see all kinds of things that it doesn't know.

02:09:55.000 I say, well, where did you even get that information?

02:09:58.000 It basically responds, well, I scraped it off of the entire internet.

02:10:01.000 Well, you didn't scrape very well because did you look at this and did you look at this and that?

02:10:09.000 And it comes back immediately and says, oh, I apologize.

02:10:11.000 I didn't look at that part because the algorithms are designed to work fast.

02:10:15.000 And so it'll pull the surface off, and usually that's okay. 0.98

02:10:20.000 It could be a troll Reddit post where someone's just fucking around. 0.97

02:10:23.000 Who knows what it is? 0.99

02:10:25.000 It's like half of Wikipedia is written by teenagers.

02:10:27.000 So you need to already have a knowledge base so they can challenge what it's telling you because sometimes it's completely off.

02:10:27.000 Right.

02:10:35.000 Well, this is in the beginning stages of this application, right?

02:10:35.000 Right.

02:10:39.000 If you think about the beginning stages of the printing press, most of the books were like how to spot witches.

02:10:44.000 Yeah.

02:10:45.000 It's true.

02:10:47.000 So one hopes that things will well, of course, the danger at this point is the AI is eventually right itself.

02:10:53.000 Right.

02:10:54.000 And it's already getting to that point.

02:10:56.000 And then we completely lose what's going on.

02:10:58.000 We have no idea.

02:10:59.000 That gets weird.

02:10:59.000 Right.

02:11:01.000 Yeah.

02:11:01.000 That was already true with the development of neural networks.

02:11:04.000 So I was using neural networks back in the 80s when the idea first came up.

02:11:09.000 And so you would learn that this is related to that.

02:11:13.000 And I would do it through the neural network training.

02:11:15.000 And then you say, well, what did you learn?

02:11:17.000 You couldn't figure it out because you have all of these weights and nodes inside the network that were encoding the information, but you couldn't then extract out from it to say, well, how did you learn this?

02:11:30.000 It couldn't even tell you how it learned it, but it did, and it learned it really well.

02:11:36.000 So a lot of that is going on in the AI world, too, that it's learning things really, really well, but it's too complex for us to understand.

02:11:46.000 Right.

02:11:46.000 But do you think if you emphasize discipline thinking and Teach people specifically how to think and how to learn and how to do for themselves, that they could then expand upon that knowledge with AI instead of using it as a crutch.

02:12:02.000 Yes.

02:12:04.000 Is that happening?

02:12:05.000 I haven't seen that yet.

02:12:07.000 Well, I haven't seen it either, but one of the things that gives me pause is the popularity of long form conversations like this.

02:12:13.000 Because we have this concept about today and about human beings in general that we're losing our attention span.

02:12:19.000 But yet, what's one of the most popular mediums?

02:12:22.000 It's long form podcasts.

02:12:23.000 Right?

02:12:23.000 Yeah.

02:12:24.000 Yeah.

02:12:25.000 Because I think there is still a hunger from a lot of people.

02:12:25.000 Right.

02:12:28.000 And whether it's people that grew up at a different time where they did learn how to think and now they're missing it and then they could find it in long form conversations, or whether it's just always going to be something that some people intuitively gravitate towards because they need more stimulation than they're getting from these simple TikTok videos and Instagram reels.

02:12:48.000 Yeah.

02:12:49.000 I think there's like we have this generalization about the perceptions of people.

02:12:54.000 And they go, oh, we've lost all of our ability to concentrate.

02:12:57.000 Like, we don't care.

02:12:58.000 Everyone has a short attention span.

02:13:00.000 I don't think everyone.

02:13:01.000 I think a lot of people, because it's easy.

02:13:05.000 If you leave junk food in front of a lot of people, they will eat it.

02:13:08.000 If you leave healthy food in front of disciplined people, they will say, I don't want the junk food.

02:13:13.000 I'm going to have the eggs and I'm going to eat healthy.

02:13:16.000 I'm going to take vitamins.

02:13:17.000 I'm going to do what I'm supposed to do because I know the benefits of it because I'm a thinking person.

02:13:20.000 Right.

02:13:21.000 You may still want the junk food, but you're able to override this.

02:13:24.000 You'll have disciplined thinking, right?

02:13:27.000 I think maybe education will move into a realm of being able to understand your own personal psychology.

02:13:33.000 Being able to understand the value of discipline and the value of having a structure to the way you think and being able to apply those things.

02:13:43.000 And then also recognizing that whatever this AI is doing is just giving you information.

02:13:47.000 It doesn't make you smarter, it's not giving you more knowledge, it's just giving you data.

02:13:52.000 And you have to then learn how to assimilate that data in an actionable way where you could use it in life.

02:13:59.000 And we could teach people how to do that, maybe.

02:14:02.000 Yeah, I mean, it seems possible.

02:14:02.000 I hope so.

02:14:04.000 But again, it's like every single technology that comes around.

02:14:07.000 When television came around, people were terrified that people were just going to stare at the TV all day.

02:14:10.000 And a lot of them did.

02:14:11.000 They do, yeah.

02:14:12.000 A lot of them did.

02:14:12.000 But also, television, which led to the internet, yeah, it's definitely distracting people.

02:14:17.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:14:18.000 But also, we have more access to information, more of an understanding of so many different things than ever before.

02:14:25.000 And you have the ability to have a conversation like this a three hour weird conversation about a very esoteric subject.

02:14:33.000 It's not that weird.

02:14:35.000 No, I mean, it's not weird.

02:14:37.000 Yeah, it's different.

02:14:37.000 It's cool.

02:14:38.000 It's exciting.

02:14:39.000 I mean, for the people that are interested in this kind of conversation, this is like food for them.

02:14:44.000 They're like, oh, exciting.

02:14:44.000 Yeah.

02:14:46.000 You know, I guarantee you a bunch of people will see this and see the description of it in Spotify and go, oh, this is going to be a good one.

02:14:52.000 You know, because there's a lot of people that have a hunger for interesting things.

02:14:56.000 You know, I'm not a dooms guy when it comes to technology.

02:15:01.000 I have a feeling we're going to sort it out.

02:15:03.000 But I think it's going to be a.

02:15:05.000 It's going to be a bit of a battle, a bit of a struggle.

02:15:08.000 It's a new thing. 0.79

02:15:11.000 Exceptional people are always going to exist.

02:15:14.000 There's always going to be people that aren't going to be willing to just give in to whatever this thing is that gives them this crutch and just become a blob that just presses buttons to get information instead of thinking.

02:15:25.000 I think people are always going to want to think.

02:15:27.000 It's part of what's fascinating about being a person learning new things and expanding your understanding of things.

02:15:33.000 Just pretending you do is a.

02:15:36.000 Party trick, but the real fascination is actually learning something that changes your perceptions.

02:15:43.000 I think people are always going to want that.

02:15:45.000 Well, I'm optimistic because humanity, at least our species, is extremely resilient.

02:15:50.000 Yes.

02:15:51.000 So all of us have some percentage of mutations, which is part of the resilience.

02:15:57.000 I forget exactly, 11% or something like that.

02:16:00.000 Every single person, even identical twins.

02:16:03.000 That's why we can survive an asteroid hit, or that's why we can survive a mistake that happens somewhere.

02:16:10.000 So ultimately, I'm optimistic about it.

02:16:10.000 Yeah.

02:16:13.000 I am too, but I mean, I look back at things like you know, I mean, there's been moments since like you look at the pyramids, you go, okay, what happened?

02:16:21.000 Where are those folks?

02:16:22.000 They took off.

02:16:23.000 Took off.

02:16:24.000 I don't know.

02:16:25.000 What do you think happened?

02:16:30.000 An asteroid or I don't know.

02:16:33.000 It could have been the Ice Age, right?

02:16:36.000 We still don't know exactly how old the pyramids are. 1.00

02:16:39.000 So it may have been the Ice Age, and now they all move to Africa, and they're Africans now. 1.00

02:16:45.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:16:45.000 Something. 1.00

02:16:46.000 Something definitely happened, some strange shift.

02:16:49.000 And that's the question how many times has that happened over the course of human civilization?

02:16:53.000 We want to think of it as being this.

02:16:54.000 Linear progression from caveman to where we are now.

02:16:57.000 It doesn't seem to be accurate.

02:16:59.000 No, I don't think so.

02:17:00.000 But there's a lot of people, along with the same type of people, that want to resist the idea, even if you have data, they don't want to look at it because they think it's nonsense.

02:17:08.000 There's also a perception of that.

02:17:10.000 There's no way people were more advanced 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 years ago than they are now.

02:17:16.000 That's not possible.

02:17:18.000 Well, it kind of is.

02:17:20.000 It's not impossible, that's for sure.

02:17:23.000 And there seems to be some very weird evidence in the form of 2,300,000.

02:17:28.000 Thousand perfectly cut stones that point to true north, south, east, and west that were put in place by the civilization that just emerged out of nowhere with this ability.

02:17:39.000 Kind of weird.

02:17:40.000 That's kind of weird too.

02:17:41.000 To pretend it's not and just write it off to, oh, people were smart.

02:17:45.000 Like, yeah.

02:17:47.000 Yeah, that's it.

02:17:48.000 That's it. 0.99

02:17:49.000 Seems like they knew some shit we don't know. 0.99

02:17:51.000 They did something we can't explain to this day. 0.99

02:17:54.000 Yep.

02:17:55.000 Like, I don't know if I would be so confident.

02:17:58.000 As to be able to say that there's a linear progression from caveman to us.

02:18:02.000 I don't think that's true.

02:18:04.000 No.

02:18:06.000 Hardly anything in the natural world is linear.

02:18:10.000 Which just scares me if we fuck it all up right now and we have a nuclear war and there's only like 50,000 people left.

02:18:15.000 Like, how long before we get to this position where we're trying to almost get past this again?

02:18:22.000 Yeah.

02:18:22.000 It's like it's rough adolescence.

02:18:24.000 Yeah.

02:18:25.000 And so it's true.

02:18:26.000 How long do you need to take?

02:18:27.000 Do you need 100,000?

02:18:29.000 Years of a high technology society, maybe.

02:18:32.000 Well, where are we?

02:18:33.000 Well, like 20 years, 50 years into it, and yeah, we're having a problem.

02:18:39.000 Well, that's where things get really weird when people start talking about UAPs and whatever these beings are, if they are real.

02:18:46.000 Like, are they us?

02:18:49.000 Are they us from the future that is coming back to make sure that we don't fuck it up and to sort of hold our hand through this experiment and just watch and observe on the outside in case things go horribly wrong, but allow.

02:19:00.000 All these mistakes to take place and allow this progression to take place and just wait it out.

02:19:07.000 I'm a fan of Hal Puthoff's ultra terrestrial idea that these are not from the future, they're from the past.

02:19:14.000 They just happen to be way more advanced than we thought.

02:19:18.000 The past?

02:19:19.000 Yeah.

02:19:20.000 Like how far in the past?

02:19:22.000 A million years, more, 100,000, something like that.

02:19:27.000 It's because you think about.

02:19:30.000 Convergent evolution.

02:19:33.000 So, when I was at UNLV, one of the places nearby was an ornithology laboratory, so birds.

02:19:42.000 So, I went to the museum and I said, Oh, these are very nice penguins here.

02:19:48.000 And the director said, Those aren't penguins.

02:19:50.000 Well, what is that?

02:19:51.000 It looks exactly like a penguin. 1.00

02:19:52.000 No, those are auks.

02:19:54.000 So, there's different birds from the North Pole and the South Pole because of convergent evolution were shaped to be like this bird.

02:20:02.000 So, I mean, they looked absolutely identical to me.

02:20:05.000 Because I don't know that much about penguins anyway.

02:20:08.000 But I said, it looks like a penguin.

02:20:10.000 It's not a penguin.

02:20:11.000 It is not.

02:20:12.000 They're involved independently in the nature of something.

02:20:14.000 Wow.

02:20:14.000 And so why is it that the aliens that we.

02:20:14.000 Yes.

02:20:16.000 That's not a penguin?

02:20:18.000 It's probably an auk.

02:20:20.000 It's probably an auk. 0.83

02:20:20.000 Whoa. 0.83

02:20:22.000 That's crazy.

02:20:23.000 I know, it's crazy.

02:20:24.000 That's crazy.

02:20:25.000 Yeah.

02:20:26.000 So, yeah, so we had one of those and had an actual penguin next to each other in the museum, and I thought, well, that, you know, what is that?

02:20:34.000 Wow.

02:20:35.000 So, a lot of these aliens that people talk about are basically like humans.

02:20:39.000 Awks can fly and swim, and they're smaller.

02:20:43.000 Yeah.

02:20:44.000 Wow, but they're so similar.

02:20:46.000 Even the color.

02:20:47.000 Yeah, the color, the shape.

02:20:48.000 The color is crazy.

02:20:51.000 Like, what is the benefit of the whole thing? 0.51

02:20:53.000 So, why do we have so called Nordic aliens that look a lot like people in Scandinavia? 0.86

02:20:53.000 The whole thing is. 0.86

02:20:59.000 Right.

02:21:00.000 But that would I mean, you think either come from a planet that is almost exactly Earth like, which is possible, I guess, or they've already been here.

02:21:11.000 They've been here a long, long time.

02:21:12.000 And the same for many of the other aliens that people talk about.

02:21:16.000 They're humanoid.

02:21:17.000 Well, humanoid is shaped by evolution to be in a certain place.

02:21:21.000 Because, like, we're so well shaped by evolution that we can go outside.

02:21:27.000 On an average place, and even though there's only a couple of miles of atmosphere, we're perfectly fine.

02:21:34.000 Are you aware of those examples of very bizarre heads that they found, skulls they found in places like Peru that don't have the sagittal suture, that have a brain capacity that's 30% larger than ours?

02:21:47.000 There's some weird skeletons.

02:21:49.000 Yeah, so Gary Nolan talked about this, I think.

02:21:53.000 Yeah.

02:21:53.000 And there's real examples of it.

02:21:57.000 These aren't theoretical.

02:21:58.000 You can find these skulls that have a larger brain capacity.

02:22:01.000 And, you know, they've attributed to a real practice of flattening heads, of shaping skulls.

02:22:08.000 That's a real practice.

02:22:09.000 But the question has become did that real practice emerge to mimic a type of creature that already existed?

02:22:18.000 Yep.

02:22:19.000 Because these skulls, see if you can find one of them, Jamie.

02:22:24.000 They're very weird looking.

02:22:26.000 Like, they're very weird.

02:22:28.000 They're big, they're bigger than a normal human skull.

02:22:31.000 They have more brain capacity.

02:22:33.000 And it's an elongated shape.

02:22:35.000 It's a different shape.

02:22:37.000 This is not like a science fiction theory.

02:22:40.000 This is not like an artist's rendition.

02:22:42.000 This is an actual real skull that doesn't have the sagittal suture.

02:22:46.000 No, no, no.

02:22:47.000 That's the alien things.

02:22:48.000 That's those monster rot.

02:22:52.000 That's that thing that a lot of people think is a fraud.

02:22:55.000 That's the skulls they were talking about, no?

02:22:57.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:22:58.000 But there's actually elongated skulls that they found.

02:23:00.000 Elongated skulls.

02:23:01.000 Just don't pull in tridactyl mummy.

02:23:03.000 Just put in elongated skull, no sagittal suture.

02:23:09.000 There you go.

02:23:10.000 Like that.

02:23:11.000 That one right there. 0.99

02:23:14.000 Like, what the fuck is that? 0.99

02:23:16.000 That does not look like a person. 0.99

02:23:19.000 That is a real skull.

02:23:21.000 So some of that is shaping.

02:23:21.000 Yeah.

02:23:24.000 Sure.

02:23:24.000 Right.

02:23:25.000 Some of it.

02:23:27.000 Some of these are, but the ones without the sagittal suture are really weird.

02:23:31.000 Because that's a thing that all human babies have because as your brain grows and your head grows, you're, you know, you're.

02:23:31.000 Yeah.

02:23:38.000 Your brain, your skull is kind of malleable. 0.84

02:23:40.000 That doesn't have it.

02:23:42.000 And some of these that they found actually have more brain capacity.

02:23:47.000 So the shaping of it wouldn't change the brain capacity.

02:23:52.000 So some of them do have that sagittal crest, that sagittal suture.

02:23:55.000 Some of them don't.

02:23:58.000 And that one that you showed up there, I hope that's not AI.

02:24:01.000 That one doesn't.

02:24:02.000 I think that's real.

02:24:04.000 It could just be hard to see.

02:24:05.000 Could be.

02:24:06.000 Could be, but it's been described by people who have examined them.

02:24:10.000 As being different.

02:24:12.000 There's also the positioning of where it connects with the spine is different.

02:24:16.000 Spine is different.

02:24:18.000 Oh, Sarah, that goes right there.

02:24:19.000 Where the spinal column enters the bottom of the skull is very much further back than normal.

02:24:23.000 A genetic adaptation or a different kind of person.

02:24:27.000 Yep.

02:24:28.000 A different kind of person that coexisted.

02:24:30.000 Like, look at that one right there, Jamie, the every cursor on.

02:24:32.000 Click on that.

02:24:34.000 That's crazy.

02:24:36.000 Like, that is really crazy.

02:24:37.000 That's a replica.

02:24:40.000 Wild looking.

02:24:41.000 That's a replica.

02:24:42.000 So, what's the real one?

02:24:43.000 The real one is the one that you showed that has Instagram on it.

02:24:45.000 That's a real one.

02:24:47.000 Like that is kind of bananas, yeah.

02:24:50.000 And if that's not done through forming of the skull and pushing the skull into the new shape, what is it?

02:24:58.000 And were they doing that because they were trying to mimic something that was superior to them?

02:25:02.000 And that's where it gets weird, like that, those real elongated skulls, Inca Museum up there, right above your cursor, yeah, to the left, right there.

02:25:11.000 That's crazy looking, man.

02:25:13.000 That's really crazy looking.

02:25:14.000 And again, that one doesn't seem to have that sagittal suture.

02:25:20.000 Neither does that one down there that says 118. 0.99

02:25:22.000 They're fucking strange. 0.97

02:25:24.000 So, if that was an actual different kind of human being that existed along with us, God, that explains a lot. 0.99

02:25:33.000 Well, they're not here anymore.

02:25:34.000 Right. 0.64

02:25:35.000 Unless they're ultra-terrestrials and they're living in the bottom of the ocean.

02:25:39.000 Right.

02:25:40.000 But if that's them, who knows?

02:25:40.000 I don't know about that.

02:25:43.000 I mean, you could get to a point where a civilization becomes so advanced that the biological entities aren't necessary anymore.

02:25:52.000 And then that would explain why they could exist at the bottom of the ocean, why they could exist with no oxygen, why they could.

02:25:59.000 They no longer become dependent upon their environment to survive.

02:26:04.000 They might have creative environments.

02:26:07.000 Right.

02:26:09.000 Like the movie.

02:26:11.000 There was a movie.

02:26:14.000 I forget the name now.

02:26:16.000 What was the premise?

02:26:17.000 It was that there's a ship and there's like a missing submarine, and so they dive down to it, but then they see.

02:26:26.000 Lights coming up.

02:26:27.000 Oh, The Abyss?

02:26:28.000 Yeah, that was a great movie.

02:26:28.000 Yes.

02:26:29.000 Yep.

02:26:30.000 That was a good one.

02:26:31.000 Yeah.

02:26:32.000 Well, there's always been stories about.

02:26:33.000 I mean, Tim Burchett, the congressman, came on this podcast and was talking about how there are five different locations in the deep ocean that they're aware of activity, that things have happened there.

02:26:43.000 They continue to happen.

02:26:45.000 But if you were going to study Earth, if you had to be local, where would you go?

02:26:51.000 I mean, if you can come here from another dimension or another galaxy or wherever you're coming from, you'd probably go in the ocean. 1.00

02:26:57.000 You'd You'd have trans, I mean, they'd observe these trans medium crafts.

02:27:01.000 They were able to fly and go into the water. 0.75

02:27:04.000 Isn't that orc, that awk thing? 1.00

02:27:06.000 Isn't that kind of trans medium? 1.00

02:27:07.000 It flies, swims. 1.00

02:27:09.000 Yeah.

02:27:10.000 It could be an alien.

02:27:11.000 It's an alien form of a penguin.

02:27:14.000 But it just, at a certain point in time, you would imagine if we could get far more advanced than we are now and we found out about a society that is at a stage where we are currently, for sure we'd go visit.

02:27:27.000 For sure we would observe. 0.53

02:27:29.000 And we would also probably try to stop nuclear war.

02:27:31.000 It is an interesting question because the prime directive in Star Trek is you don't mess with them.

02:27:39.000 Right.

02:27:39.000 But they always do.

02:27:40.000 Yeah.

02:27:40.000 Well, Star Trek is they didn't even have the internet.

02:27:44.000 They had walkie talkies.

02:27:45.000 Kirk out.

02:27:46.000 Remember the communicator thing?

02:27:47.000 No, they had the communicator thing.

02:27:48.000 I'm talking about the next generation.

02:27:49.000 Yeah.

02:27:50.000 I'm talking about the original.

02:27:52.000 No.

02:27:52.000 The original is pretty good though.

02:27:52.000 Yeah.

02:27:54.000 Really good.

02:27:55.000 Especially when you think about it was like the 1960s when it came out.

02:27:55.000 Yeah.

02:27:59.000 So part of my personal mission was to make Star Trek real.

02:28:04.000 That's like it's including beaming people up?

02:28:09.000 Including beaming people up?

02:28:10.000 Oh, no, it's like the Vulcan, the most rational creature on there was the one who could do the mind melt.

02:28:15.000 That's why I was thinking, yeah, okay.

02:28:18.000 An advanced species, this stuff is taken for granted.

02:28:22.000 That's where my vision is seeing.

02:28:25.000 Yeah.

02:28:26.000 And so that advanced species may be us, might need a little evolutionary push with genetics, but yeah, we could do that too.

02:28:34.000 The ultra terrestrial, that these things have come from the past?

02:28:38.000 Like, how are they here?

02:28:40.000 They've always been here.

02:28:41.000 They've always been here.

02:28:42.000 They just exist, but they exist in a different way.

02:28:45.000 Well, so imagine even given current technology, if there was another ice age coming and we may have a thousand years to prepare.

02:28:53.000 Would we be smart enough to do that?

02:28:55.000 I don't know.

02:28:56.000 Could we do it?

02:28:58.000 Yes.

02:28:58.000 We do it, yes.

02:29:00.000 We probably could.

02:29:01.000 Boy.

02:29:03.000 Yeah, and then so another thousand years passes and you're below ground somewhere.

02:29:08.000 We're beginning, well, do we interact with them or not?

02:29:12.000 Well, it's an interesting question.

02:29:14.000 Like, we don't want to get involved in all that mess.

02:29:18.000 It's sort of like how we don't visit North Sentinel Island.

02:29:20.000 Maybe. 0.99

02:29:20.000 You know, like those people that live in the uncontacted tribe. 0.99

02:29:25.000 Yeah.

02:29:25.000 You're literally not allowed to go there.

02:29:25.000 Yeah.

02:29:31.000 Let them develop the way they shall develop.

02:29:33.000 Yeah.

02:29:33.000 Wow.

02:29:34.000 Yeah, I can accept that.

02:29:39.000 Well, if it turns out that there is some activity, that there are some things that we can't explain that are happening from deep in the ocean, we're going to have to come up with some sort of an explanation.

02:29:52.000 If that is an actual intelligent species, an intelligent life form, something, whatever it is, there's got to be some explanation for that.

02:30:01.000 So the ultra terrestrial one is just as good.

02:30:05.000 Yeah, there's an explanation for everything.

02:30:08.000 The question is A, are we smart enough to figure it out?

02:30:12.000 And B, how long will it take?

02:30:15.000 And both of those are complete unknowns.

02:30:18.000 But that's, I mean, that's yet another reason why I like the kind of work that I do that you need to have very high tolerance for ambiguity, of which I do.

02:30:27.000 Like, I'm okay with not knowing a lot of basically everything.

02:30:30.000 I know enough to be able to be dangerous, but otherwise, I don't mind that I don't know.

02:30:37.000 Well, I'm very thankful that people like you are out there because if you weren't out there doing this work and you weren't out there expanding on this, I mean, it's really fascinating when the, If something like this does emerge, it would change the human race.

02:30:49.000 change the human race and think about the small amount of people that are involved in this research.

02:30:55.000 Kind of crazy.

02:30:56.000 It's kind of crazy.

02:30:56.000 Yeah.

02:30:57.000 Yeah.

02:30:58.000 It's a huge responsibility you have in a lot of ways.

02:31:00.000 Well, fortunately, I also enjoy it.

02:31:02.000 So, I mean, I'm having fun while I'm doing this because otherwise, I think I would have chosen some other door.

02:31:08.000 I mean, I had plenty of opportunities to work with golden handcuffs somewhere, but I get bored easily.

02:31:15.000 I get bored easily, and this is the one area where I have never gotten bored.

02:31:19.000 Well, I'm very thankful.

02:31:21.000 Thank you for being here, too.

02:31:23.000 And tell everybody.

02:31:24.000 Did you do an audio version of this book?

02:31:26.000 I have an actor do it because I don't want anybody to have to suffer with 12 hours of my voice.

02:31:33.000 So there's an actor that does it.

02:31:36.000 It was very, very good.

02:31:37.000 And so, yeah, this is.

02:31:40.000 There's one other story I want to say that's in the book.

02:31:44.000 So this is a synchronicity which, again, gave me the idea that we don't know the limits of what we're dealing with, which is important.

02:31:50.000 So I had mentioned that after Interval, we started a nonprofit.

02:31:54.000 This was called Boundary Institute.

02:31:56.000 It was in Silicon Valley.

02:31:57.000 It was in Silicon Valley.

02:31:59.000 We found an office park in Los Altos, which is just outside of Silicon Valley.

02:32:09.000 We found a space.

02:32:10.000 We liked it.

02:32:11.000 We decided to get that.

02:32:13.000 That's where our new place would be.

02:32:16.000 I was close enough to where I lived so I was able to walk to work.

02:32:19.000 I always walked a certain way.

02:32:21.000 One day I decided to walk a different way.

02:32:23.000 I go past another office called SciQuest Inc.

02:32:28.000 PSI Quest Inc.

02:32:29.000 And I thought, that's an interesting coincidence because we're doing Sci research and now we have SciQuest Inc.

02:32:36.000 We thought it was Personnel Services Incorporated something.

02:32:39.000 We didn't know what it was.

02:32:40.000 We thought that was funny.

02:32:43.000 About three weeks go by and I decide to walk you a different way to work.

02:32:47.000 I'm going through this office place different ways.

02:32:50.000 And I notice that right next to our office is something with a tiny little sign that says SciQuest Labs.

02:32:57.000 And so now we're thinking, What does a personnel services thing need with a laboratory?

02:33:02.000 So I look through the mini blinds, there's nobody in there.

02:33:05.000 So now I'm determined to find out what are you guys doing?

02:33:08.000 So every day over the next couple of weeks, I go past that place and knock on the door and I'm looking through the blinds, there's nobody there.

02:33:16.000 Finally, one day I see somebody in there, knock on the door and I'm going to say, hello, my name is.

02:33:22.000 The door opens, the guy's jaw drops before I could say my name and he says, Dean Radin?

02:33:30.000 And now I'm thinking, well, I've never seen you before.

02:33:33.000 I don't know who you are.

02:33:34.000 How do you know who I am?

02:33:37.000 So he says, who he says is name.

02:33:41.000 And I said, well, what are you doing here?

02:33:44.000 I'm doing what you're doing.

02:33:46.000 What do you think we're doing?

02:33:48.000 Cyber search, parapsychology, like what you're doing.

02:33:51.000 So I had to sit down at that point because we knew everybody in the world who's doing this.

02:33:57.000 There's only like 40 of us around the world in maybe five or six different locations.

02:34:02.000 Here is a Psy research laboratory in Silicon Valley that no one has ever heard about before.

02:34:08.000 And so I said, well, how did you know who I was?

02:34:12.000 Even if you knew, you know, we had nothing in our door that said it was Psy research.

02:34:16.000 It said Boundary Institute.

02:34:18.000 He said, I was looking to contact you because I want you to be on my board of directors, but I didn't know where you were and I didn't know how to contact you.

02:34:27.000 So I opened the door and there I am.

02:34:31.000 So I said, well, what were you doing?

02:34:33.000 He was doing an exercise called Yoga Nidra.

02:34:36.000 Which is the yoga of sleep.

02:34:38.000 But there's a magical element to it as well.

02:34:41.000 So, over a course of 24 hours, for three hours he was awake, three hours he sleeps, back and forth over the course of 24 hours.

02:34:48.000 While awake, he's picturing that I show up.

02:34:53.000 And so I opened the door, and that's why his jaw dropped, because at that point he was awake, he was walking around, but I showed up and he was trying to make me show up.

02:35:03.000 So, in a sense, he manifested me.

02:35:06.000 Now, I think I have free will.

02:35:08.000 Like, we, you know, we.

02:35:09.000 Freely chose that office next door.

02:35:11.000 I freely went to the door.

02:35:12.000 I freely did everything, but apparently was being pulled by him.

02:35:18.000 So, well, that was strange.

02:35:21.000 And so I said, well, so how are you doing this?

02:35:23.000 What are you doing?

02:35:24.000 And so he gave me a tour of his laboratory.

02:35:27.000 That's when my jaw dropped, because what I had been doing, adjacent wall next to his, without knowing what's going over there on a whiteboard, I was drawing a special kind of chair that we wanted in a special shielded room and equipment and everything on the whiteboard.

02:35:44.000 That's what he had.

02:35:45.000 The other side of that wall is what he had in his laboratory.

02:35:50.000 Whoa.

02:35:51.000 Yeah.

02:35:52.000 So it's like a four-part synchronicity where I was drawing to me what I wanted.

02:35:58.000 I didn't know it was the other side of the wall, but I was drawing it into existence.

02:36:02.000 He was, at the same time, drawing me.

02:36:05.000 We had the same intentions, draw each other, essentially, and we literally got pulled into the same location at the same time.

02:36:12.000 That's incredible.

02:36:13.000 Yeah.

02:36:14.000 So it was so incredible that I told the other guys in our institute, and in a sense, they understood what was happening because they saw the same laboratory and stuff.

02:36:26.000 After a while, we never talked about it again.

02:36:29.000 I mean, it was so bizarre and so magical in a sense that we all thought we were doing things of our own free will, but apparently not.

02:36:39.000 So I started looking into Yoga Nidra, the magical side of it.

02:36:44.000 It's all about intention, focused intention in a non ordinary state.

02:36:49.000 And it is literally a magical practice out of the yogic tradition.

02:36:54.000 So, yet another reason why I'm writing about the science of magic, the real magic, And showing how a lot of the science that we know now actually overlaps.

02:37:03.000 Wow.

02:37:04.000 It's just, it's not at the level of what you would get in Harry Potter, but nevertheless, a lot of it is real.

02:37:12.000 Thank you for telling that story.

02:37:13.000 That's awesome.

02:37:15.000 Thank you for being here, too.

02:37:16.000 This is really exciting.

02:37:17.000 I really enjoyed it very much.

02:37:18.000 Thank you.

02:37:19.000 So, the book, The Science of Magic, available everywhere.

02:37:23.000 Thank you.

02:37:24.000 Yep.

02:37:25.000 Is this for me?

02:37:26.000 Yep.

02:37:26.000 Oh, I got a copy.

02:37:27.000 All right.

02:37:28.000 Thank you very much.

02:37:29.000 This is really, really, really fun.

02:37:30.000 Thank you.

02:37:31.000 Let's do it again.

02:37:32.000 I'm excited to hear where you go with this stuff.

02:37:34.000 Okay.

02:37:35.000 Maybe next time I'll bring that nose spray.

02:37:35.000 All right.

02:37:37.000 All right.

02:37:37.000 Let's do it.

02:37:37.000 Bring it.

02:37:38.000 Bye, everybody.

02:37:38.000 Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - June 11, 2026

Joe Rogan Experience #2513 - Dean Radin

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Summary

Transcript