00:00:20.000I don't know the count, but maybe tens.
00:00:23.000Well, when we were talking, we were talking in the lobby.
00:00:25.000I was like, this dude would be a good guest because we were talking about ancient Hindu scriptures where you were talking to me about something that sounds like a nuclear bomb.
00:02:56.000Again, there's a lot of different opinions on this, so I don't actually know for sure.
00:03:01.000My understanding is at least 1,500 to 2,500 years old.
00:03:06.0001,500 years ago is the minimum, 2,500 years ago is the maximum.
00:03:11.000So it happened in some period in that thousand year time frame between that.
00:03:18.000And it's still unclear if a lot of it has just been.
00:03:24.000And what actually happened was just a war between kins.
00:03:29.000There were two groups of people, the Pandavas and the Kauravas.
00:03:32.000And, you know, each side thought they were fighting for their own rights and justice.
00:03:38.000But at the end of the day, you can crudely understand it as like essentially a fight for the kingdom.
00:03:47.000Basically, there was a previous generation and two brothers, and both the brothers had a bunch of kids, and those kids were warring to get the next in line.
00:03:57.000And that ended up being like a massive war, and a bunch of other allies fought on each side.
00:04:04.000And so many amazing weapons were used as part of the war.
00:04:08.000And a lot of these weapons are like extremely, like describe an extreme level of detail that is pretty incredible.
00:04:16.000Like there's a lot of detail around like targeted weapons.
00:04:20.000So you could precisely identify a target and just shoot at that.
00:04:24.000And then, does it explain like what the weapon is?
00:04:27.000So there's one weapon called the Divyastra where you can just.
00:04:31.000Specifically targeted any particular person or group, and it would just automatically direct itself and do it, almost like a semi autonomous weapon.
00:04:41.000And then Lord Krishna had this weapon called the Sudarshan Chakra, it's basically a discus.
00:04:48.000And then you can just release it, and it'll go and specifically identify somebody and chop off their head and come back to your right.
00:04:57.000So, what I was amazed by is how interesting it is in terms of.
00:05:05.000All the autonomy in the weapons, semi autonomy or autonomy, where the weapons could just be directed at people or directed at a group of soldiers and it would just go and do its job and come back to the wielder.
00:05:17.000And there were so many different astras Divyastra, Varunastra, Nagastra.0.61
00:05:22.000Ramastra is obviously the ultimate, the hydrogen bomb equivalent.
00:05:26.000And all of these are described in a lot of detail and who has access to it.0.67
00:05:31.000And of course, it's mythologized, so it's described as these arrows in the back of your shoulders.
00:05:38.000You could understand it as like somebody having just access to a lot of weapons.
00:05:42.000And then whoever was powerful would go capture and colonize and gain power.
00:05:49.000And essentially, a fight between a group of cousins.
00:05:55.000Now, if we think of history as this linear progression from caveman to us, and we hear about autonomous weapons that were written in the Mahabharata somewhere around 2,000 plus years ago, we go, well, mythology.
00:06:09.000If there's been some sort of rise and fall of civilization, if there has been catastrophic, whatever it is, asteroid impacts, shifting of the poles, whatever it is, it's caused great disasters.
00:06:22.000You can imagine that these people are remembering a time where there was some sort of very advanced civilization.
00:06:31.000Like, if you knew for a fact that there had been a great, advanced, technologically advanced civilization, when we have evidence that they had some technology, like the pyramids.
00:06:46.000But we don't have evidence of the technology.
00:06:48.000But if we did, if we knew for a fact, you would look at the Mahabharata and go, oh, this is history.
00:06:53.000They're just explaining it in a kind of crude, contemporary way for the time, arrows instead of, you know, semi autonomous drones with exploding heads on them.
00:07:28.000I mean, that's always been my fascination with those epics and the level of detail with which they described all these weapons and who had access, different levels of access, the status required to have access, and how it was used in the wars.
00:08:22.000Like, you could say, okay, like somebody had to be extremely skillful to have that sort of like visualizations and imaginations of describing a story like that.
00:08:33.000And obviously, like Tolkien has done an amazing job with a lot of the rings, you know, and creating so much detail.
00:08:39.000At the same time, like a lot of it actually coming through in real life in some form, again, not exactly the same weapons, but similar style makes you wonder.
00:08:49.000Was there actually something around then?
00:08:51.000And people have tried excavations in all these areas.
00:08:54.000There's like two main areas in the Mahabharata.
00:08:56.000Hassinapur was the name of the kingdom.
00:08:58.000And people have done excavations around there and have found some artifacts that might date back to those years.
00:09:06.000But there are also some details that are described in the epics that don't quite align with reality.
00:09:11.000For example, all the men, all the main warriors in that era were described as very tall, very big.
00:09:27.000But studies by archaeologists also say that people who lived in those years in those regions were probably not more than six feet tall.
00:09:37.000So it's not clear exactly what happened, what was correct, what was not correct.
00:09:42.000And we just have to keep probing more.
00:09:44.000But I find the idea fascinating to think of what could have existed in sacred texts that was.
00:09:51.000Only partially communicated to the next generation and having a lot of like reinterpretations.
00:09:56.000Another thing that is very interesting to think about is Vedic math.
00:10:00.000So, um, that basically Vedic math is like a branch of mathematics that you know some people in India are grown up learning.
00:10:08.000Like, I read it myself too, and uh, some people actually practice it just to be sharper at mental math for doing their exams, like GMAT and things like that, GRE.
00:10:22.000It has like a line in the Vedas that says, oh, like one from the last digit, two from the first digit, whatever.
00:10:28.000So many different ways of multiplying two different numbers, like 97 times 96.
00:10:33.000Oh, like subtract the last two digits, put it right.
00:10:35.000Multiply the first digits, put it in the left.
00:12:31.000Classic Hindu great flood myth where the righteous king Manu is warned by a divine fish about an imminent deluge that will destroy humanity.
00:12:42.000He builds a boat, loads it with his family.
00:12:46.000It's the same thing with seeds and animals, ties it to the horn of the god in fish form, which tows the boat to safety until the waters recede and the world is repopulated.
00:15:17.000Where it says in 1894, an Indian sage gave us an explanation not only for our hidden past, but for the trends of today and for future enlightenment.
00:15:26.000So, there's like one guy's interpretation that this guy is going off of.
00:15:31.000I guess the difference might be that he thinks the yuga cycle is 24,000 years, whereas I think it's probably much longer than that.
00:15:48.000One of the really nutty things is both in the ancient Sumerian texts and in some of the ancient Egyptian texts, there's depictions before the flood of people who reigned for thousands of years as kings.
00:17:01.000And there are different arguments that, like, okay, like the reason we haven't quite found that is because the great filter exists.
00:17:11.000And there is like one entertaining theory that I like.
00:17:15.000Just for the sake of entertainment, is almost all civilizations end up advancing technologically a lot, and either a calamity wipes them out, or like they build some misaligned AGI and then AGI wipes them out.
00:17:30.000And because of that, they never actually end up being visible to us.
00:17:36.000Or the other theories that, like, they're like, we haven't quite built the von Neumann probes to actually go find them.
00:17:48.000And, you know, there's no clear way to, like, know unless we actually send out enough probes.
00:17:58.000This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.
00:18:00.000We've come a long way with mental health, but there's still work to be done.
00:18:04.000BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000 Americans, revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society.
00:18:20.000One thing that can help is to have more open conversations about mental health struggles and encourage people to seek out help, not judge them.
00:18:56.000I mean, there's almost too many to count, but there's the possibility that they are observing and that they don't want to interfere, and that we are on some sort of evolutionary cycle.
00:19:06.000A cycle of cultural evolution, civilization evolution.
00:19:10.000And one of the things about this, the crazy ages that come from the Sumerian text and from the ancient hieroglyphs that depict the Zeptet, how do you say it?
00:19:37.000Either way, you're dealing with these kings that reign for thousands and thousands of years.
00:19:42.000Well, you know, David Sinclair is in the middle of this research now that they're working on life extension drugs, like that are actionable.
00:20:18.000And then, if you're talking about these ancient Hindu scriptures that are discussing technology that seems remarkably similar to technology that we have today.
00:20:59.000Like there's a lot of things that could be just technological ideas or maybe people actually had it and the knowledge of it was lost and it's not been documented, it's not been passed along.
00:21:09.000And so we are skeptical if they ever had it.
00:21:46.000Delivers it and then scale upwards and onwards, and AI, and then also life extension.
00:21:53.000So, if these people were able to make the pyramids, like you know, there's a lot of speculation as to the timeline of the pyramids, but let's just say they really built it 2500 BC.0.98
00:22:07.000Let's just say back then, what the fuck were they using?0.95
00:23:03.000All of these temples were actually just built, not just that.
00:23:07.000They were specifically the locations for them are picked out so that you get the right seismic vibrations over there in terms of like proximity to the ocean, the gravitational waves from the sun and the moon.
00:24:50.000There's so many people trying to do that.
00:24:52.000They said, like, this is how much work someone could do in like 12 hours with a hammer, and they get nowhere, let alone like perfect and looking good.
00:25:03.000And there's a lot of evidence of stuff like that all over the world, which is really weird.
00:25:09.000You have the stuff in Peru, like Soxehuaman, when you look at these stones and it looks like they're melted into place and they're 900 tons.
00:25:55.000But yeah, it goes back to, like, the thing you were saying, right?
00:25:58.000You know, what is one thing that's common across all these different ages is human curiosity.
00:26:03.000So, I mean, that's something that I would love to get your take on this.
00:26:08.000I've been toying with this idea called a curiosity premium, which is the most effective people, the most successful people have always been the most curious people, the ones who have been good at asking the best questions.
00:26:21.000And they tend to do better in every aspect of their life.
00:27:02.000And so that's why it keeps compounding.
00:27:04.000And I would argue that it's the only quality that makes us really human.
00:27:10.000You know, in this world where we can seek a lot of information and get information way faster than ever before, it feels like that's that one universal human quality that's existed since ancient times, since the oldest texts.
00:27:24.000Like, in fact, in the Rig Veda, you're explicitly encouraged to seek wisdom more than wealth.
00:27:32.000And it's not just an idea specific to Hinduism, that specific idea exists in the Bible, it exists in the Quran, it exists in the Torah.
00:27:39.000Seeking well is administered by religious texts.
00:27:42.000It's actually that it's more important to seek wisdom.
00:27:45.000And, you know, like you can, why I said you're a good example of that is like, sure, you have a very, very large podcast, but the way you're running it is like you're just curious about a lot of things and asking a lot of questions.
00:27:58.000And I think that's that one quality that's very important.
00:28:00.000So, and I feel like it's the oldest thing, it's the only thing that we've known since ancient time, being curious.
00:28:19.000I think that it's also an authentic quality, and I think there's something about really wanting to know something and being interested in something.
00:28:30.000If you're curious, generally you're going to ask more questions about something so you have a deeper understanding of it.
00:28:35.000If you're trying to do whatever you're trying to do, a sport, a game, you'll probably get better at it because you're more curious.
00:28:41.000Because instead of just assuming things, you'll ask more questions, you'll re examine things.
00:28:48.000It's one of the most important human qualities.
00:28:50.000And to me, it's one of the most attractive human qualities.
00:29:01.000And this podcast started out genuinely because of well, it was a lot of just talking shit with friends, but it also led into like one of my very first guests, actual guests, was Graham Hancock.
00:29:14.000And it's just because I was curious because I had read Fingerprints of the Gods and I'd seen him talk.
00:29:18.000I'd seen speeches, and I'm like, I want to know what do you know?
00:29:59.000And from the publication of that book, the discovery of Gobekli Tepe and the surrounding area, like, it's like, okay, now we realize, well, there was some crazy shit going on at the very least 11,000 years ago.
00:30:12.000So we pushed civilization back 5,000 years.
00:30:16.000So, like, and this is just what we found now.
00:30:18.000And we keep finding things, keep digging, keep looking.
00:30:22.000And then you see the stuff that they're finding underneath the pyramid with this radio tomography where they're looking under the pyramid that seems that there's structures under the pyramid.
00:30:42.000But he's describing the use of this stuff and that they've used it.
00:30:46.000Successfully on known areas in pyramids and other structures, and they can.
00:30:53.000In fact, there's a in Italy, there is a particle collider that is underneath a mountain.
00:31:01.000And using this technology, which is satellite based technology, they get an accurate description of this particle collider that's, I think it's 1,200 meters underground.
00:31:13.000Like, how far is that thing underground?
00:32:00.000But if there's something underneath it that's a man made or someone made it that's a kilometer deep into the ground, like, What the fuck are we even talking about?0.96
00:32:20.000It's a half a fucking mile plus into the mountain.0.98
00:32:24.000And this thing can see through all that and get this accurate depiction of this particle collider.0.97
00:32:30.000And it's showing with multiple scans, not just one, multiple scans in different technology, the same exact images, the same exact structures underneath this.
00:32:41.000Fucking immense 2,300,000 stone structure that almost perfectly aligns to true north, south, east, and west.0.91
00:33:59.000There's all these core marks in some of the stones that they find in Egypt.
00:34:04.000And they've analyzed the amount of revolutions per minute that you would have to go through to be able to cut through something and leave these lines.
00:34:51.000You know, like when they could find meteorites and make things out of them was very valuable, obviously.
00:34:57.000But just the sheer volume of work that they did there, it's like you look at the Temple in Man, you look at the three major pyramids, you look at all the different temples and all the construction, and the older you go, the deeper into the sand they go, the more complex these things are, which is even weirder.
00:35:19.000So it seems like civilization after civilization, there was probably a rise and fall with their technology as well.
00:35:27.000I think it's just incredible that none of this knowledge was properly documented ever.
00:35:33.000And it's a whole line of work to just go understand how to even rebuild these things, leave alone how they built it.
00:35:40.000Well, think about what we're doing, right?
00:35:42.000So all of our knowledge is essentially stored on hard drives and paper.
00:35:46.000Those are the two things that are going to deteriorate the quickest.
00:35:51.000Maybe we should take a dump of the internet and put it on a rock, go preserve it somewhere so that even if our civilization is wiped out and all the data centers are gone or whatever.
00:36:03.000Whoever comes next can go figure it out.
00:36:06.000Well, I mean, then you've got to always assume that even if they found a hard drive, that they would, like, how long would it take for them to back engineer what we did and figure out what these ones and zeros actually mean?
00:36:48.000You remember when Gmail launched and gave everybody free email storage, unlimited email storage, and the bottom sliding bar would just keep increasing in terms of the total allowed size?
00:37:38.000And, Again, if a completely alien society had to come down and find our hard drives and they went a totally different path of technology, they'd have to back engineer, reverse engineer everything that we did, try to figure out what are we using, what operating system, how's the operating system work?
00:38:08.000And so that's just if the hard drives survive.
00:38:12.000So, if there's some massive flood, cataclysm, whatever, some horrific thing that damages all of our electronics, which is totally possible, just some solar flare, some intense.
00:38:44.000Which is why I'm really fascinated by the flood, the post flood timeline.
00:38:49.000Because if these people like Graham Hancock and a lot of these other folks that have speculated that there was probably a very advanced civilization that went in a completely different direction many thousands of years ago, if you look at the emergence of Sumer and Mesopotamia and that area, which a lot of people attribute to be the earliest known civilization, that's around 5,000 plus, 6,000 years ago, right?
00:40:28.000And probably technology that went in a completely different direction than what we're doing now with combustion engines and circuits and all the different things that we use.
00:40:38.000They probably figured out some other kind of technology.
00:40:53.000If I could choose one window in time to go back to see what it would look like, I would 100% pick ancient Egypt while they're building the pyramids.0.98
00:41:03.000Show me what the fuck was going on.0.97
00:41:07.000Just put me in a big hamster wheel, there's a big plastic bubble where no one could see me.0.99
00:41:12.000Just let me violate space and time and exist there for just a few minutes.
00:41:58.000It would be hard to do anything like this even today.
00:42:01.000It would be incredibly difficult, insanely time consuming.
00:42:06.000Yeah, the Kalyasa temple, by the way, I don't have it up right now, but in 1650 or so, someone sent a thousand people to try to destroy it.
00:42:14.000And after three years of doing nothing, they stopped.
00:42:17.000They barely made a dent on a couple statues.0.94
00:42:20.000Yeah, a lot of times when invasions happen in India, they tried really hard to fuck it up and couldn't.0.99
00:42:35.000It's just, there's so much of that stuff that's so interesting because it's so undeniable.
00:42:43.000It's so undeniable in its scale, so undeniable in its complexity, and the planning and the understanding that you had to have a deep knowledge of geometry, of measurement, of materials.
00:43:09.000How are you coordinating all these people and getting them to do stuff?
00:43:14.000I mean, sure, conditions must have been way harsher.
00:43:17.000I'm sure people didn't really have a choice but to do these things because back in those days, the only way you could take care of your food and clothing and shelter is you commit yourself as a laborer to the state, to the kingdom.
00:43:31.000But you could also ask what gave them the initiative or drive to go do these things?
00:43:37.000Well, that description is perhaps of a later time.
00:43:41.000We don't even really know what civilization was like when these were constructed.
00:43:45.000The real problem is the material science.
00:43:49.000The real problem is, like, you there's a lot of things that you have to have to make those things.
00:43:54.000It's not as simple as a sculpture, like Michelangelo making a sculpture out of something that's like fairly easy to carve into as far as stone goes.
00:44:03.000You know, this is the scale is it's so undeniable that, like, something, something, some piece of our understanding is missing.
00:46:47.000And you've got to assume that these many thousand year old temples that were carved out of a fucking mountain, whatever tools they used, probably got absorbed by the earth.0.96
00:46:58.000And the only thing that's remaining, yeah.0.92
00:47:16.000Like, if they had heavy equipment and machinery and whatever the fuck they were using, they probably moved it and then moved it out, and then it probably rotted away.
00:47:25.000If there was machinery, if there wasn't, like, there must have been something else, some other kind of like some technology that we haven't even imagined.
00:49:46.000Teotihuacan, whichever one it was, on the consecration day when they were done with whatever they were doing with it to celebrate, they killed somewhere between 20,000 and 80,000 people in four days.0.99
00:50:17.000That lived there before them, and where are they, and what happened, and how'd they do this, and why'd they do it, and why did they have it aligned with the constellations?
00:52:14.000My theory is that even though it was not formulated as a Pythagorean theorem, I'm sure people had to understand concepts of sines and cosines and whatever is the right angle for the right incline to get this right level of geometry.
00:52:29.000You needed to have some implicit understanding of.
00:52:32.000To build these kind of structures, there's no way you could do it without that.
00:52:36.000And you have to have incredible measurement tools, like not just the actual mathematics.
00:52:42.000Okay, the oldest known evidence of Pythagorean theorem dates from old Babylonian clay tablets from about 1900 to 1600 BCE, roughly 1,000 years before Pythagoras.
00:53:36.000Because they're all curious, that's it.
00:53:38.000Yeah, they're all curious, and eventually, all curiosity leads to truth or some form of it.
00:53:44.000I would argue that anything that's of impact in the world has only been done by curious people.
00:53:49.000In hindsight, we label those people as successful, as smart, or rich, but the common trait across all of them has been curious.
00:53:59.000Well, that's certainly a powerful trait.
00:54:02.000And people that aren't curious are not fun.
00:54:05.000Yeah, they are interesting, so because of that, they don't attract other smart or interesting people.
00:54:11.000And therefore, they won't be able to do something very meaningful in the world.
00:54:15.000So it's kind of like it's less about, and it applies to your personal relationships and personal life too.
00:54:23.000It's not just about professional success.
00:54:26.000Like, you'll have a more fulfilling life with your wife or your kids if you're a more curious person.
00:54:31.000You ask them more questions, you take interest in them, right?
00:54:35.000So, that's the one quality everybody wants in personal relationships taking interest in them and actually understanding them better or being curious about common things.
00:54:45.000And so, it's not just that being curious leads to success, it's more that people around you want you to be successful if you're curious, because you will have more compounding and fulfilling relationships.
00:55:15.000So, Bell Labs was basically employing as many, like, history adjusted as many telephone engineers back then as the number of software engineers today.
00:55:24.000But only three people cared enough to question whether you should use these really hot, giant vacuum tubes for amplifying telephone signals.
00:55:33.000So, vacuum tubes are very big, power hungry, and very hot, and so they were not fault tolerant, and it's very expensive.
00:55:41.000And so, three people questioned the need for that and came up with the idea of the transistor to amplify current.
00:55:48.000And that was the Nobel Prize winning discovery, and not just that it was useful to amplify telephone signals, it basically led to the rise of modern computing, and we wouldn't have an iPhone like this today if not for those three people.
00:56:01.000Do you know what the tinfoil hat conspiracy theory about transistors is?
00:56:15.000Remember, Jamie, there's the two scientists that were attributed.
00:56:18.000There's this one scientist that said they weren't even remotely exceptional guys and that they gave them the credit for this so that they didn't have to reveal the true nature of where this technology came from.
00:56:39.000Um, There's a few inventions that came out of that time period, roughly after 1947, that are weird.
00:56:48.000And one of them is fiber optics, and one of them is a transistor.
00:56:51.000And these are supposedly attributed to back engineering programs.
00:56:56.000So the Roswell crash, I don't know if you ever paid any attention to it, it's a real weird one because the cover of the Roswell Daily Record said that the government has a crash disk that landed in the desert.
00:57:08.000A bunch of witnesses, a bunch of people saw it.
00:57:11.000It's also people that saw, supposedly saw physical bodies of these creatures and supposedly, again, who knows what's true.
00:57:22.000But Truman went to the site, he visited it, and then the planes, two separate planes, were flown to Wright Patterson Air Force Base, which was, I think it was just Wright Base back then.
00:57:35.000I don't think it was Wright Patterson.
00:57:36.000But they flew them out, and the idea was this.
00:57:41.000Was so important, they didn't want to risk one plane crashing.
00:57:45.000So they flew it in two different planes.
00:57:47.000And that this stuff has always been known to be stored at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
00:57:52.000That's what everybody always talks about.
00:57:54.000And then a lot of it was moved to Bell Labs.
00:57:58.000And there was a company called the American Computer Company.
00:58:02.000And back in the day, the American Computer Company was just like it was a consumer website where you could go and say, Oh, I need a Windows computer that does this, that, and the other thing.
00:58:12.000And you could just Put in whatever your specs were and they would build it for you.
00:58:15.000They had a whole section of their website dedicated to Bell Labs and back engineered UFO technology.0.99
00:58:23.000And all they talked about, and this one, like whoever ran it was like a fucking kook.0.90
00:58:34.000So you're saying your theory, I mean, not that you believe in it, but your theory is that the transistor was not like invented, it was known and it was given to the.
00:58:45.000Between the first ideas of the transistor and then what actually came about and how much money had to be spent to create it off of this leap.
00:58:54.000This was this assertion by these scientists that were trying to examine this.
00:59:00.000The thing about Bell Labs is there's a military base right outside of Bell Labs.
00:59:06.000And they say, well, that military base is to guard New York City.
00:59:08.000But New York City is quite a flight away, but Bell Labs is right there.0.99
00:59:13.000And they were working on some deep, dark shit at Bell Labs for sure.0.94
00:59:18.000Because I've had a bunch of people on that were talking about remote viewing exercises that they were doing out of Bell Labs.0.98
00:59:24.000You know, we've had a bunch of people that came on and talked about various programs that were going on that were like top secret programs that were happening that were being run through Bell Labs.
00:59:34.000There's some weirdness to that place, like real weirdness.
01:00:36.000And also, there's just too many stories of this.
01:00:39.000And David Grush has, you know, on oath said that there are back engineering programs and he was read into these and that they've been around for a long time.
01:00:47.000But this is the assertion of that movie, The Age of Disclosure, that the real problem is.
01:00:52.000That they have misappropriated funds and lied to Congress.
01:00:55.000And so they come out and tell you, okay, we do have this program.
01:00:59.000Everybody goes to jail because you guys are a bunch of liars and you've been stealing money and you've been doing it whatever you want to do with this money.0.96
01:01:06.000I don't know how much oversight is there on back engineering UFO programs.0.86
01:01:13.000So probably a lot of people get in trouble.
01:01:24.000Well, you're going to bring them to Lockheed Martin or you're going to bring them to, you know, Rocketdyne or it's going to be someone that does that kind of work.
01:01:55.000The only thing we need, if we really want to find out the truth, is we're going to need widespread amnesty for all these people that were involved.
01:02:03.000My problem with that is that's what I would say too.
01:02:06.000If I had been stealing money for decades and decades, I'd be like, we need amnesty.
01:02:12.000And then I'll tell you where all this stuff is.
01:02:13.000I'm like, how do we know what this stuff is?
01:02:18.000Whether or not these are just top secret military programs with advanced propulsion technology that's unavailable to the public, and they're going to say that it's aliens, and they back engineered this, and they did that.
01:02:28.000They clearly don't want to tell people.
01:03:08.000With, it seems like one of the things that's happening with both AI and with technology in general is that you have more and more access to information.
01:03:19.000And more and more answers to questions than ever before.
01:03:23.000At a certain point in time, there's going to be no bottleneck.
01:03:27.000And we're going to know everything about everything.
01:03:29.000So, how is anyone in government going to keep a secret?
01:03:33.000How is any corruption ever going to be possible?
01:03:37.000At a certain point in time, all of it will get uncovered.
01:03:40.000It's much more difficult to commit murder now with DNA evidence.
01:03:44.000Back in the 1800s, I didn't see nothing.
01:03:59.000So it seems like to me, like whatever they have, whatever anybody has, ultimately there's going to come a point in time where there's so much data and so much information, and you could run all your questions.
01:04:10.000Like there's an AI fact checker for politicians now.1.00
01:04:13.000So while a politician is giving a speech, you can run an AI fact checker, and in real time, it will tell you whether or not these people are full of shit.1.00
01:05:16.000I would say like building frontier AI models is similar to that.
01:05:20.000Of course, as more and more models are getting open source, I think the knowledge is diffusing.
01:05:26.000But still, the true amount of details you need to actually train a really amazing frontier reasoning capability model is still not widely diffused.
01:05:37.000So, my hypothesis is that whatever is extremely high stakes will still not be widely diffused.
01:05:49.000At least there'll be enough structures in place to keep it secret.
01:05:59.000Things do get out and people do understand.
01:06:01.000It feels like long term is what I'm looking at.
01:06:03.000Like, look, when we're looking at history, we're talking in these, like, when we're looking at all these different temples and all these different things, we're talking about thousands and thousands of years.
01:06:13.000And thousands of years of time span in between each individual one.
01:06:17.000With our world, we're talking about massive change in 200 years.
01:07:15.000Does it bottleneck with the government or does it get to a point where there is?
01:07:20.000You can't even have government secrets because as technology evolves and as human civilization evolves, secrets will be less and less, not just necessary, but secrets will be problematic because they'll be an impediment to knowledge.
01:07:33.000They'll be an impediment to understanding the true scope of what the world is, like the true nature of all of our various moving parts.
01:07:42.000As long as the human quality, the intrinsic human quality of curiosity and truth seekingness, which is universal, it's existed ever since we've known human beings.
01:07:52.000If that continues and that continues to be the case, then people will have enough incentives to figure out the truth.
01:08:07.000So, my question is where does this all go?
01:08:10.000You know, and you obviously work in AI.
01:08:13.000And when you think about AI and when you think about just technology in general and you extrapolate, you just take it from here and you just plot it out.
01:08:21.000Like, what is a possible scenario of 250 years from now?
01:08:40.000Five years ago, whoever is at the top most in AI, I don't even consider myself like that, but whoever is at the most frontier level of decision making in AI, five years ago, I don't think they predicted the exact state we are in today.
01:08:55.000If they did, they would have already procured all the compute and, like, You know, manufactured all the chips, bought out all the fabs, they have done all that, right?
01:09:17.000I think Jensen was here and he said the same thing, right?
01:09:20.000But okay, like if you predicted this exact state five years before, wouldn't you have secured enough power and started building more power plants yourself and started getting permits and like started like.
01:10:05.000I've seen you ask a lot of people about this, and a lot of conventional answers is like, oh, we'll just become managers of the AIs, don't worry.
01:10:16.000But if the price of cognition is the price of compute, managing an AI is also pretty much doable by the AI itself because the bottleneck is not like unique cognition capability there.
01:10:31.000So the value of the society will automatically shift to what is scarce.
01:10:36.000And fundamentally, what has been scarce is asking high quality questions about things.
01:10:42.000Okay, what if we just completely spend all our time understanding the past?
01:11:38.000How would it be if we wanted to do the same thing on the moon?
01:11:41.000There are so many interesting projects to work on for us.
01:11:44.000As long as we stay curious and we stay interested in a lot of things that we've done before and trying to understand civilization, I'm not really concerned about what things we get to do.
01:11:55.000We might be doing a lot more cool things for what it's worth.
01:11:58.000I don't know if anybody will be coming and telling you that, oh, it's so cool to open an Excel sheet every day and make financial models.
01:12:07.000There's got to be somebody out there that likes that.
01:12:09.000There's something about the task you do and what you get paid for, what is the job title, blah, blah, blah.
01:12:43.000We've always gravitated towards things that are scarce because that's where the value lies.
01:12:49.000And so, if you know, have you one interesting analogy is the Gulf states where there's an abundance of resources and they export their resources to other states and that pays for the whole state?
01:13:08.000You know how like they offer everybody free electricity, subsidized health, subsidized education, and like no taxes?
01:13:16.000When I first went to Dubai, like in almost like 20 years ago.
01:13:22.000They told me like people don't pay taxes here and nobody pays for electricity here and education is like super cheap.
01:14:44.000And if we can shift that to finding purpose in what your actual interests are and then really pursuing something, whatever it is in that, then you'll still have meaning in your life.
01:15:01.000Your relationships, your family, caring for each other.
01:15:06.000If you ask a lot of retired people, actually, retired people is a good demographic to understand what would happen, what are things people find meaning in after work's taken off them.
01:15:16.000And the majority of the answers are always family, caring, personal relationships, and community.
01:15:25.000These are the things retired people keep doing to keep themselves active and wake up every day and have something to look for.
01:15:32.000So, all those things will become even more important at a time when work itself doesn't mean much.
01:15:40.000Doesn't mean humans won't be status seeking.
01:16:46.000Yeah, that's why I'm not a big fan of everybody claiming that the AI is going to kill us or AGI is going to destroy humanity and it's too dangerous and we all need to stop doing these things.
01:16:58.000But at the same time, continuing to build all these data centers and continuing to make money.
01:17:02.000You have to have one consistent position.
01:17:05.000My position is that whether AI or not, I think being curious is going to serve you really well.
01:17:13.000I think it's going to help you have a better life.
01:17:15.000And there are two paths to curiosity one that can kill it and one that can supercharge it.
01:17:21.000In my opinion, the one that kills curiosity is algorithmic feeds.
01:17:25.000Like the brain rot that you're fed every day with just, you know, this continuous doom scrolling that's bad.
01:17:33.000And the one that can supercharge it is AI.
01:17:36.000Okay, like now that you could just ask whatever you want, if everybody has like a pull it up Jamie for them, Right.
01:18:09.000There's a lot of land in America, way more land than we know what to do with it.
01:18:15.000And surely we can build a lot of interesting things there.
01:18:18.000Well, that's a good glass half full project.
01:18:23.000And one of the things that I keep coming to is this whole idea of people working and making money and having careers and having portfolios and bank accounts and all that.
01:21:30.000I mean, so many people have so many different perspectives, which is one of the more interesting things that I've.
01:21:36.000Doing this podcast is, I get to talk to so many different people, and they vary so widely.
01:21:43.000There's so many different ways of looking at the world and so many different ways of engaging with the world, and so many different things that people are fascinated with that they spent their entire life studying and pursuing.
01:21:54.000It's like you get this rich tapestry of the human experience that's just, I would have never been exposed to this many people.
01:22:02.000And in turn, I've been able to expose these people to all these other folks that are just listening and watching right now.0.98
01:22:47.000And, and, and, um, And now that bottleneck is gone, we did this experiment with one instructor at MIT who taught the introduction to biology class, where he came and told us that he's going to give perplexity to all the kids, all the students, and they would use it as part of the lectures.
01:23:06.000So instead of fighting AI, you just give AIs to everybody and let them ask whatever questions they want, and they can actually use it in the exams too.
01:23:14.000So, how do you even design questions for an exam in such a world?
01:23:21.000Is maybe you just encourage people to pose a question that AI can't answer right now, and that becomes your research project, and you turn everybody into a scientist.
01:23:33.000Fundamentally, like, there's this belief that scientists have to go through a rigorous PhD, and like, you have to get accredited by an amazing university to be that.
01:23:42.000Sure, but anyone who's curious can be a scientist.
01:23:46.000The only thing that's required to be a good scientist is intellectual humility to understand that you could be wrong about things.
01:23:53.000Things that everyone takes for granted, you could still question them.
01:23:57.000And when you're presented with new evidence and new data, you're willing to change your mind.
01:24:02.000And you're willing to operate with ambiguity and uncertainty about the world.
01:24:06.000That's basically all the qualities you need to be a scientist.
01:24:14.000You can bring in experts and talk to them.
01:24:18.000And as long as you're uncovering more and more about the world, you are a scientist.
01:24:22.000You don't need a PhD to feel that you're allowed to be a scientist or not.
01:24:27.000And I think that's the most important quality we need to inculcate in our kids, the upcoming generation, so that they all feel more liberated.
01:24:38.000Okay, like finally, I don't have to memorize this textbook or these lecture materials, and like I don't have to feel bad if I get like 12 out of 20.
01:25:00.000Excuse me, intellectual humility is so important because one of the things that was really weird about the whole COVID pandemic was that we weren't supposed to question science.
01:25:32.000And that's the most important quality of a scientist.
01:25:34.000Well, the scientific method alone, I mean, it's one of the most important things that we can use to try to figure out what's real and what's not real.
01:25:42.000And as soon as someone says, don't use it, don't question, well, wait a minute.
01:25:47.000And then there was an actual government push to silence questioning, and legitimate researchers were kicked off of Twitter because they didn't back the narrative.
01:26:24.000I wonder if anybody has used AI to try to map out possible scenarios for where technology leads human civilization and what could be done to mitigate the problems and push it.
01:26:38.000In the proper direction, like have a bunch of different models of how this could play out.
01:27:13.000Was that considered a sign of smartness or remembering people's phone numbers or something?
01:27:17.000Well, you had to because there was, I mean, you had little address books as we used to carry around, like a little, I had a little address book that I keep on my desk.
01:27:24.000It's a little tiny thing with everybody's number and name.
01:27:49.000Well, people are impressed if you know things now.
01:27:53.000I have a bunch of weird information, obviously, that I've gathered through so many years of doing this podcast and just so many years of being curious.0.98
01:28:02.000Sometimes even my own daughter is like, How the fuck do you know that?0.57
01:28:54.000Reasoning for decision making is something you can delegate.
01:28:58.000But posing the right questions to gather the right data and then forming your own judgment based on what it reasons and comes up with, and finally having the courage to make the decision, that's still you.
01:29:08.000That agency, that intrinsic curiosity to ask the right question, the scientific intellectual humility to gather new evidence, always questioning your beliefs, that is still you.
01:29:20.000And so I feel like that is essentially what would be considered smart in the ages to come.
01:29:26.000If somebody is like a proxy scientist or whatever, no more, doesn't have to go to MIT or Harvard and get a PhD to be a scientist or to be considered a scientist.
01:29:37.000Because all scientific literature is open and it's accessible to everybody.
01:29:41.000And you can even take a paper written by an expert and use an AI, understand it deeply, ask a lot of questions, and maybe even disprove what they.
01:30:21.000It's going to be interesting to see what the future of education looks like.
01:30:24.000Like, how valuable are degrees when essentially AI is going to be able to do the majority of whatever work you need done on a variety of things?
01:30:33.000Like, how good are they right now at just law?
01:30:50.000And at a certain point in time, it's going to be interesting that, like, what is education now?
01:30:54.000Is education just providing you with information?
01:30:56.000Because that information is readily available.
01:30:58.000Or is education teaching you how to think, teaching you how to pursue your interests and be curious and have intellectual humility and understand what you know and what you don't know?
01:31:11.000I still think institutions will preserve their brand value because there is a certain aspect of education that's outside of learning, which is just having access to other curious and intelligent people.
01:32:11.000Even if you're a computer, even if you go into a computer science degree, I don't know if it's still the case.
01:32:15.000I shouldn't misspeak, but at least when I was there and for many years after, the first two years, you just spent learning hardcore electrical and mechanical engineering.
01:32:23.000You would learn like welding using late machines.
01:32:26.000You would have to like go and like do workshops, carpentry, a lot of these things.
01:32:33.000I would think there'd be a lot of value in that.
01:32:35.000So, in hindsight, I actually think it was fun to learn soldering and how to make circuits on red boards and turn to circuit boards.
01:32:43.000But if somebody was just interested in just writing code, let's say, back then, all this is kind of pointless to learn, but you had to go through it to be qualified as an engineer.
01:32:59.000And the reason the curriculum was designed that way is because that's what the labor force was required back then.
01:33:05.000To build like oil factories and like all these things.
01:33:07.000So you had to learn mechanical engineering, you had to learn fluid mechanics, whatever.
01:33:11.000But I think that should also change because if the way you do work changes, then what you're trained for in college should also change.
01:33:20.000And it's much harder to change these things.
01:34:01.000Because the tools are so spectacular now that just this idea of just memorizing information is not what you're going to need to get by in the future.
01:34:13.000And I guess like one proxy different schools use is like maybe if more entrepreneurs arise out of your school, you probably created a lot of independent thinkers because they are like willing to take a fresh perspective towards a problem and build their own thing from scratch.
01:34:31.000And fundamentally, that's what America's always been about is, you know, the American dream of coming here and like having your own idea and still be taken seriously by a bunch of people.
01:34:43.000The whole idea of venture capital and leagues this year are like.
01:34:45.000Kick family and friends around this whole idea of just having your friends help you to bootstrap a business and then turning it into a success.
01:34:52.000And success doesn't mean like multi billion or 10 billion or whatever, right?
01:34:56.000Like, as long as it pays you enough that you don't have to work for somebody else and you can live a fulfilling life and you can just go explore your passions, that's success.
01:35:05.000That's actually a better success than creating a company based on what other people want you to do and then hating your job for it.
01:35:13.000Yeah, and having a yacht and being miserable and working every day.
01:35:17.000That's why I said, like, not the smartest or the richest people are not always the ones who have the most fulfilling lives.
01:35:22.000The most curious people have the most fulfilling lives because they have better relationships.
01:35:27.000They're actually able to sit and look at something and, you know, be curious about it instead of like being worried about what's going on.
01:35:34.000What did the American dream, what was it to you when you weren't in America?
01:35:43.000Well, to me, like, I always thought America is the only country where you can come here.
01:35:50.000And have an idea, and people listen to you and encourage you to go pursue it.
01:35:56.000The risk seeking culture is just incredible here.
01:36:00.000Everywhere else, you kind of are like either explicitly or implicitly forced to defer to authority.
01:36:06.000Okay, like go and ask the permission of this person, go and ask the permission of that person, or get their approval, or get their insight.
01:36:13.000Sure, you can consult everybody out there, but if you have a thought that challenges what they believe in, This country still encourages you to go pursue it.
01:36:24.000And so, yes, when I came here, obviously, Google was the number one company that everybody wanted to work in.
01:36:33.000But it's also the same country where it allows you, as a new person, to start a new idea that challenges one of the biggest companies in this own country.
01:37:38.000The incentive structures are not quite there.
01:37:41.000And the ability to be taken seriously for some crazy ideas is why America is still at the top.
01:37:50.000But it's crazy to me that if the American dream is so compelling and so many people come here for it, why doesn't the rest of the world sort of adopt those values?
01:38:04.000America was made from a piece of land, essentially.
01:38:14.000And a lot of ideas that we built here, a lot of industries that we built here, were all created here from nothing.
01:38:22.000And that required you to go take bold risks.
01:38:27.000I think Jeff Bezos said this in some podcast that where else would you be able to go raise a few million dollars for an idea that has 5% to 10% chance of working and then fail at it and still go and raise another few million dollars for your next idea?
01:38:48.000People who get rich here actually want to encourage and be part of somebody else's crazy journey because it's hard to pursue all crazy bets yourself.
01:39:23.000I'm a big believer in intense hard work.
01:39:27.000I think nothing great can be accomplished by being soft.
01:39:31.000And so, all this recent push for having a lot of work life balance, this and that.
01:39:37.000Sure, if that's what you want, then I think there are certain jobs that would give you that.
01:39:42.000But when you're trying to do something from scratch, when you're trying to create something from nothing, it's not meant to be easy.
01:39:49.000There are some sacrifices that have to be made.
01:39:52.000You're signing up to be part of that experience, that surreal joy you get from doing something that felt almost impossible to achieve.
01:40:02.000And you're not doing, you're not like staying up late or waking up early because you're getting paid more.
01:40:09.000Maybe you might not get paid anything, maybe this whole thing goes to nothing, but that experience you're getting of being part of something that feels very hard to achieve is what you're signing up for to be part of.
01:40:21.000Yeah, and if you're not, Find something else.
01:40:26.000And the country has enough jobs to provide for all kinds of needs, right?
01:40:30.000And everybody goes through different phases in their life.
01:40:32.000Sometimes they feel a little lazy or disillusioned, okay?
01:40:36.000And so what I like about this country is that there's a lot of curious people here.
01:40:42.000There's so many different people, whether they use AIs or not, they're all finding meaning in so many interesting projects.
01:40:50.000Well, obviously, I don't know any other country really because I was born here, but the people that.
01:40:56.000Do talk to me about what the American dream is like from another country.
01:41:01.000They're the most passionate and the most supportive of this idea, this experiment in self government, and just the whole idea that the country operates on that anybody can chase their dream.
01:42:37.000I mean, sure, there's a lot of obstacles and challenges.
01:42:41.000Just like every other country, there are things here that are challenging, but it's one thing that has consistently stayed true.
01:42:50.000One of the big fears that people in America have about technology in particular is that without being aware that this was going to take place, everybody gave up their data.
01:43:02.000Everybody gave up their data and didn't recognize it was a commodity.
01:43:06.000That in turn made these corporations immensely wealthy and powerful.
01:43:10.000And then They have the ability to shape narratives.
01:43:14.000And that concerns people because using their ideological position as leverage to try to push that through technology that has immense control and influence over people, and that we didn't see technology and corporations as having that much control over how society views itself and how we interact with each other.
01:43:42.000Real concern that these companies got so big and have so, like, there's a guy named Robert Epstein who's done a lot of work on narrated or curated search engine results and how much that can affect.
01:44:16.000You know, if you look for specific political figures, depending upon where they fall in the right or left spectrum, and depending upon which way the company forms, the corporation forms, falls rather, you'll get different results.0.98
01:44:31.000You know, that's very concerning that people don't recognize, they don't have the ability to see how that is dangerous for all of society to have that kind of power and wield it in that way where you're not being honest about accurate, objective information.0.98
01:44:52.000So, I think it's kind of like this is almost an effect of the asymmetry that exists between the amount of AI power that centralized systems and centralized companies have and the amount of AI power you as a sovereign individual have.
01:45:10.000So, when you don't have the AIs to just go judge for yourself what you should be reading and fed, you're obviously under the influence of whatever big tech company is controlling the information flow.
01:45:24.000But when you have access to all those AIs, you can actually just customize what you want to see by telling the AI, like, hey, this is what I think you should actually question and tell me.
01:45:35.000Until now, you never had that power for yourself.
01:45:40.000And eventually, we'll be able to have our own LLMs, like our own models that we would be able to host in our own hardware.
01:45:48.000We don't have to rely on one centralized model given to us by any specific model company.
01:45:56.000And using that, you can shape it to your beliefs, your custom data.
01:46:03.000And so, when you're consuming a search result, you can actually ask that AI that you control and you run so nobody can shut off access to it to tell you, like, hey, can you actually give me a contrarian perspective on this?
01:46:18.000Or can you tell me if these search results are actually biased?
01:46:21.000So, I think we need to give individuals more sovereignty.
01:46:25.000With more access to their own AIs that they own and run on a piece of hardware they own themselves.
01:46:31.000And this is the whole, like, this is going to be leading to the whole rise of local AIs.
01:46:36.000So, as AI models, like today, they're very power inefficient, they're running on large data centers, but in a year or two from now, whatever capability that exists in the most power hungry data centers will be, it'll be possible to run it in some box that you own.
01:46:53.000It's already happening that, like, there are, like, interesting hardware projects like the Apple Mac Mini, NVIDIA DGX.
01:47:00.000Where you can actually host a reasonable size model and put it in a box and have it run, and you don't have to pay for all the tokens it produces you.
01:47:12.000You just have to plug it into your power car and it works.
01:47:17.000I know Duncan, my friend Duncan Trussell, he does that.
01:47:37.000And over time, it could end up being the case that you could buy something that feels like a refrigerator for your home, which is your own AI box, and host a model that you control.
01:47:47.000So nobody can arbitrarily shut off access to it one day.
01:47:52.000And then you can have that be your weapon against what the big tech wants you to be fed or believe in.
01:47:59.000This is the only way we can fight this because they have far more computing power.
01:48:03.000Far more data, far more algorithms than you.
01:48:07.000So, the only way you can fight that is you have something you own yourself.
01:48:12.000And with the rise of open source models, open source LLMs, you can just and progress in local hardware.
01:48:20.000And both Apple, NVIDIA, Intel, they're all doing amazing work here.
01:48:24.000You could potentially change the future and give people more power.
01:48:26.000And this may not be as expensive as people think.
01:48:29.000Well, that's a good solution because I've always wondered like, is Are these searches like using Google?
01:48:36.000Is that going to be irrelevant one day?
01:48:39.000Because you already can just ask your phone.
01:48:41.000Like, I most of the time, if I want to have an answer for something, I just ask perplexity.
01:48:48.000Instead of having to sift through all these Google searches and try to figure out what it's showing me first and get to page three where it's what I really want to know, I can get the accurate information, then follow up questions are instantaneous.
01:49:01.000And even the models that are running the Perplexity app today, they're all in the cloud.
01:49:06.000Eventually, you'll be able to do that on a box that you own.
01:49:11.000You can still use the front end, the UI of the app, but you can control the compute that runs.
01:49:29.000What if someday the government decides that model is no longer available?
01:49:34.000You want some control over what models you can run, and you may even want to shape it to your context that you never want to be living on any data center.
01:49:45.000And I think that's where I believe the individual gets more sovereignty against big tech.
01:49:52.000And that's how we fight surveillance or centralization of power.
01:49:58.000Yeah, and certainly pushing narratives.
01:50:02.000What do you think happens with social media?
01:50:05.000Because social media, and as you were talking about before, algorithms, it's one of the biggest problems in terms of the way people view the world.
01:50:38.000My belief is that when you're just fed a feed and the algorithm of the social media company decides what you're going to see next, it curbs your curiosity.
01:50:52.000And I don't think things that curb human curiosity should be encouraged.
01:50:59.000And so, if the app is designed in a way where it asks you what you're interested in and helps you to come up and find things that are very related to what you're interested in, that's awesome.
01:51:13.000It's literally like it starts with something, you start doom scrolling, and then it starts showing you what you just scrolled, and then you end up in an echo chamber.
01:51:25.000I'm in a trap of schizophrenics lately.
01:51:28.000On Instagram, but it's just mostly schizophrenics like people that tell them they're the rightful president of the United States, and like you tell the guy hasn't showered in days.0.79
01:51:36.000And you know, and if you have a phone, you can create an account and just start uploading nonsense.
01:51:42.000And then for whatever reason, I've watched a couple of them, so now they just keep showing them to me.
01:51:46.000And it's full of AI slop right now, yeah, like a lot of AI slop.
01:51:49.000Like it's not even clear, and it's not labeled also clearly whether it's being made with AI or not.
01:51:55.000So often, so essentially, it's leading to a complete loss in trust.
01:52:01.000Where, when I see something, I don't even know if it's real anymore.
01:52:31.000Fundamentally, I feel like, okay, the way I think about it is what are pieces of technology if it did not exist would be a really bad thing for the world, and what are pieces of technology if it did not exist wouldn't even matter.
01:52:47.000And I feel like social media is more towards the second.
01:53:02.000All that stuff is some, we need more of that.
01:53:05.000But because it supercharges our curiosity.
01:53:09.000Whereas like brain rot feeds with AI slop doesn't actually supercharge our curiosity, it actually curbs our curiosity.
01:53:15.000And so if we believe that, if we believe in the curiosity premium idea, we need to encourage things that supercharge our curiosity and discourage things that curb our curiosity.
01:53:27.000Do you anticipate a time where we recognize the dangers of algorithms and their?
01:53:34.000Is some discussion to either curb them or allow people to have control over them in a real meaningful way?
01:53:41.000Like you could dictate, maybe through AI, even that there's an AI interface to your algorithm that understands your particular emotional needs, your curiosity.
01:54:02.000So here's the thing you can still customize on most of these social apps.
01:54:09.000It'll be deeply buried somewhere in the setting somewhere, and you can go and say stuff.
01:54:13.000But the reason it's buried is because once you always have to say it, or it's the starting entry point for your experience there, your engagement time would go down because once you consume the content that you really want, you would go back to your work, which is what you really need to be doing.
01:54:28.000But that doesn't help them sell more ads.
01:54:31.000And so the incentives are not aligned.
01:54:35.000And so Elon has this really good metric he talks about where.
01:54:39.000It's like a total amount of unregretted minutes spent on the app should go up.
01:55:40.000So naturally, people tend to engage in discussions and debates, and there's a lot of Curious debates going on there and a lot of interesting viewpoints expressed by people.
01:55:50.000So, I think in terms of the unregretted minutes, it's actually one of the better social media apps.
01:55:56.000But apps that are purely based on like video or images and largely video these days, I think that's just you know just trying to get your eyeballs in time.
01:56:22.000I always say that if there was a drug that existed that made people stare at their hand for six hours a day, everybody would be like, get that out of here.
01:56:28.000But that's essentially what we're doing.
01:57:33.000Professional pool matches, that's what I do for the most part.
01:57:37.000That's where I really like to find my actual interests and fulfill my curiosity.
01:57:41.000Long form content is what human mind should be trained to consume more of, whether it's books, whether it's like 30 minute videos explaining something.
01:57:52.000And you need to train your mind to actually complete it.
01:57:55.000That's actually the biggest problem with the younger generation.
01:57:57.000The more they're in the reels experience, short form video, they're unable to actually like.
01:59:09.000He's probably my favorite because it's.0.91
01:59:11.000The most accurate and also satirical and hilarious view on everything that's going on in the world in terms of like war and world news and culture shit.0.92
02:00:03.000He's the most consistently entertaining.
02:00:06.000And then for just mind, not mindless, but like to escape, I listen to a lot of archery shows and hunting shows where they're talking about different tactics in hunting or different.
02:00:18.000Techniques in archery, new equipment, and new innovations.
02:00:23.000Archery is an interesting thing because every year bow manufacturers make a better bow.
02:00:29.000And like tiny little engineering changes of these bows.
02:00:34.000Like it's a weapon that's been around for who knows how many thousands of years.
02:01:01.000So I get really fascinated by engineering, really fascinated by automotive engineering.
02:01:06.000I'm really interested in, like, that's another thing where, like, every year people figure out to make a car that can hold more G's on a skid pad, that can get around a track quicker.
02:01:17.000Like, every year they're battling to see who can get around the Nurburgring quicker.
02:01:21.000They're adding horsepower, increasing suspension travel and suspension tuning, rather, and making them more compliant or making them stiffer.
02:01:30.000And making them more adjustable, and then like tire compounds.
02:01:35.000I'm just interested in anything that where someone's working on something and getting better at something or getting new information.
02:01:44.000I love history podcasts, I listen to a bunch of history podcasts.
02:01:47.000So that's most of the time when I'm listening to something, I either want to be entertained or I want to be educated.
02:01:53.000Educational, yeah, yeah, and that's entertaining, yeah.
02:02:47.000Yeah, I've seen a lot of people agree.
02:02:49.000So they make all these very interesting videos about like stuff that, you know, you would be curious about, but you never actually bothered to ask that or learn more about and explain some of the most under understood companies or like phenomena.
02:03:52.000So, the pilots that were downed in Iran said that they have this technology that allows them, I think they could use it up to 70 miles and they could detect a very unique heart rate.
02:04:06.000Like, your heart rate is different than my heart rate.
02:04:35.000Or is this some invented horseshit to cover the fact that they have some very sophisticated satellite imagery where they can have a detailed map of literally the entire surface of the world?
02:04:46.000They know exactly where people are, but they don't want our enemies to know that they have this capability.
02:06:52.000Quantum magnetometers measure extremely faint magnetic fields, including the body's natural electromagnetic signals, by tracking changes in the energy states of atoms or subatomic particles.
02:07:17.000While human heartbeats produce a magnetic field that is extremely weak, around 50 to 100 picoteslas, and typically degrades over very short distances.
02:07:28.000So the ghost murmur deployment, they reportedly used ghost murmur during a mission in southern Iran to pinpoint the location of a down American airman using.
02:07:37.000Hiding rather in dense mountainous terrain.
02:07:40.000By mounting these quantum sensors into a helicopter, the system purportedly registered the pilot's heartbeat from afar.
02:07:52.000I mean, it doesn't sound full of shit, but basically, the part that sounds surprising to me is how they're able to deal with all this distance and attenuation across the distance and all this interference, and they claim to use AI for that, but nothing is really described on how they use it.0.99
02:08:17.000Physicists point out that the heart's magnetic field is a million times weaker than the Earth's.
02:08:23.000Detecting it at a range of miles rather than centimeters defies currently published peer reviewed physics.
02:08:30.000Alternative explanations suspect that while quantum sensors were likely on board, they were probably tracking the radio waves of a survival beacon, the metal in the pilot's equipment, or using traditional thermal, infrared, and radar capabilities rather than detecting a raw heartbeat via magnetic fields.
02:08:49.000I do remember seeing a different part of a.
02:08:52.000When that story happened back in April, someone did report on one of the military websites that there was a survival beacon that they used to track them.
02:08:59.000And that the whole quantum armor stuff was nonsense.
02:09:30.000Do you ever, while you're working in AI, do you ever wonder, like, is this the downfall of humanity?
02:09:37.000Is this a good thing to be working on?
02:09:39.000Did you ever have, like, doom moments?
02:09:43.000Not on specific things I'm working on, but in general, I do worry about, like, How much you know, you obviously want to like stay in charge and you know, be in control of your experience, um, still be the one driving change and have a lot of agency for yourself.
02:10:01.000So, I do worry that like it's all about like making sure everybody's upskilled and understanding like where the future is headed and not being like, um, fed only like dangerous apocalyptic messages, and uh, because it's very essential that human beings retain their agency and.
02:10:21.000Like, so if that stops being the case, if you start subscribing to the vision that, okay, your jobs are done, you don't really have any meaning in the world, and we'll pay you some dividends, and you just sit at home and chill, that is not a good thing.
02:10:34.000So, and I feel like there are not enough voices in AI that are actually saying anything different to that.
02:10:39.000And I like, like, when Jensen was here, I think he was a little different.
02:10:43.000I think he tried to give a more positive version where he said, okay, like, The radiologist thing, if all radiologists can take away, they start doing different kinds of work.
02:10:57.000So I think we need to start looking at, like, okay, first of all, guys, relax.
02:11:02.000You have one freemium skill, your curiosity.
02:11:05.000So let's figure out ways to channelize that.
02:11:07.000Let's change the way work is done in companies.
02:11:09.000Let's change the way educational institutions run.
02:11:11.000Let's change the incentive structures.
02:11:14.000And let's help you build new ideas and new companies and explore things that are not even being considered.
02:11:20.000And the government should obviously support all these initiatives.
02:11:23.000So that's what needs to happen more.0.98
02:11:25.000But what's happening actually right now is, okay, like, hey guys, you're all losers.0.97
02:12:55.000It's not overnight going to become something that's capable of just running an entire multi trillion dollar company on its own.
02:13:03.000There are a lot of things that AIs cannot do.
02:13:05.000There's a lot of tacit knowledge in every company that AIs don't quite understand.
02:13:10.000And there's a lot of new directions that you can just start working on that AIs are not well equipped to do because it doesn't have full knowledge about it.
02:13:17.000And the knowledge about it is yet to be captured.
02:13:20.000And some of that requires like human to human work and collaboration.
02:13:23.000So we obviously have to gravitate towards what is scarce.
02:13:27.000When AI makes the current labor that's considered scarce, because that's where the money is going in, commodity, then we have to gravitate towards what is scarce.
02:13:38.000And the only way to do that is to seek things that we don't know about, which is only something we can discover through our curiosity.
02:13:48.000Whatever we don't quite understand well, Whatever we don't know how to do well yet, even with the current capabilities of AI, that's where we should pull our labor and workforce into.
02:13:59.000So it needs more responsible messaging, and that's not quite happening right now.
02:14:05.000I think it needs responsible messaging, and then in the future, what it needs is real direction in terms of letting people find their curiosity and find these paths of interest and find something to do with themselves that doesn't involve whatever they're.
02:14:28.000I think like passion for people is something that not a lot of people will be able to answer out of the box.
02:14:34.000Like, if you go and ask them, What is your real passion? and the only thing they have known in life is to just climb up career ladders and make more money, that's going to actually take them a while to even discover.
02:14:52.000That's our hope for the future, the kids are born curious.
02:14:56.000They don't need to change themselves to be curious.
02:15:00.000The adults who probably already are like, because of this knowledge work thing, who kind of curb their curiosity and try to fit into the existing system, it might be a little hard for them to adapt.
02:15:12.000But the kids, I think they don't have this problem.
02:15:15.000So I'm actually optimistic about the future long term because the future is all centered around whoever is very young today.
02:15:22.000What do you think about this idea that universal basic income is going to be required?
02:15:33.000If a lot of spend that most companies are currently doing today on like payroll, which is paying a knowledge worker for a certain task, think of knowledge work as basically taking information and transforming it into an artifact.
02:15:50.000Let's assume that's being done by AIs.
02:15:52.000So obviously, companies will start spending more on compute instead of payroll.
02:15:58.000It's just a reallocation of like spend or budget.
02:16:01.000Similar to like what happened in advertising industries where most of your advertising budgets went to like television and like billboards and then now it's starting to go to Google and Instagram and YouTube and all that.
02:16:12.000So when that happens, obviously like the AI companies are going to make a lot of money and people who helped be part of creating it or either directly or indirectly would want to have some role to play in that.
02:16:29.000Ecosystem and a good way to involve them is through giving them some ownership in the company.
02:16:35.000So, as shareholders, if you get dividends from the profits generated by the AIs, it's not a bad thing.
02:17:09.000Like when the Industrial Revolution started, the United Kingdom actually started projects around building railroads.
02:17:18.000And that gave a lot of people who were in the cottage industries new jobs.
02:17:23.000So there are going to be a lot of new projects to just, okay, like what if we want to reimagine the government itself where the government runs largely on AI?
02:17:38.000It's not about the capabilities not being there.
02:17:41.000It's about working through the legacy and bureaucracy to actually deploy and implement this inside the largest institutions in the country.
02:17:52.000And that's going to need a new set of skilled workers to go do that.
02:17:57.000So some people who might be working at Microsoft or something today might actually end up working for the United States government because.
02:18:04.000Microsoft may not need them, especially for internally deploying AI or selling AI to their customers, but the government needs them.
02:18:11.000And if the government can pay them well and it's a fulfilling job to find some meaning for doing something good for the country, it's not a bad thing.
02:18:19.000So I think just like in the Industrial Revolution, where we had new projects because the demand for AI was so big, we're going to start seeing some new projects being created in AI as well when the capabilities advance enough that they can replace knowledge workers.
02:19:21.000So, honestly, more than AI, the government is running a lot of legacy software stack because a lot of these legacy enterprise companies just have created these multi decade or year contracts that are hard to get out of.
02:19:38.000And the way they do that is to sell it at a much larger discount.
02:19:42.000And, like, you know, like if you're on a specific OS, you're not allowed to change this for like 10 years.
02:19:48.000You have to use the same sort of software.
02:19:50.000All these people you hired only know to use that tool.
02:19:54.000So, it takes time to actually change and implement new things, leave alone AI.
02:19:58.000If you just wanted to move everybody from Windows machines to Mac machines, good luck with that.
02:20:09.000And so, that has nothing to do with the technology.
02:20:12.000And so, to do things in such messy systems, you still need people.
02:20:16.000You still need people to navigate all these changes.
02:20:22.000It's not about the capability of technology, it's more about how the system is structured.
02:20:26.000And that's why I still feel there will be new jobs.
02:20:30.000Maybe there's a lot of new projects to be done.
02:20:32.000Maybe some good leader actually wants to change the system and is willing to be patient about it.
02:20:38.000Over a five to 10 year horizon, if you take 10 years to actually run majority of the government processes on AIs, it may seem slow to you today, but in the grand scheme of things, it's actually good for the country.
02:20:51.000And that's still going to need a lot of nice engineers to go work on these projects.
02:20:56.000So, they're not going to lose all their jobs.
02:20:58.000There's going to be some displacement.
02:20:59.000There's going to be some new projects.
02:21:04.000The system will keep going because that's just how historically things have been.
02:21:09.000When you think about the future of AI and you think of this.
02:21:14.000So, when you think about AGI in particular, you think about something that could potentially make better versions of itself, self replicating.
02:21:50.000And I used to think that ASI is bottlenecked by power because you need a ton of compute for this model to.
02:22:00.000Keep on training itself and running its own rollouts and collecting data and then going and updating itself.
02:22:07.000But you could imagine that once the algorithm is correct, the ASI could be tasked with just making itself more efficient too.
02:22:14.000Where improvement doesn't just mean capability improvement, improvement could also mean power efficiency.
02:22:20.000And that way, the recursive safe ASI that is improving itself also makes itself more compact and more efficient and it can run on less compute.
02:22:30.000So, that would be the ultimate project in AI.
02:22:32.000Think of it as almost as the last project in AI is basically cracking recursive self improvement.
02:22:37.000Once you crack that, you don't have anything else to work on.
02:22:41.000In practice, I think what's going to happen is because information is so muddled and fragmented and living in disjoint systems, just the way we have constructed our messy real world, it's going to be hard to point even a recursively self improving AI at some metric and say, go improve this.
02:23:00.000That would be awesome if you can task an AI to do that.
02:23:04.000If that's the job of the government to just reduce inflation, have a deflationary effect on society, and make goods and services a lot more abundant and efficient, it's going to have to deal with a lot of messy legacy systems.
02:23:18.000If the task is to go improve the healthcare, well, good luck.
02:23:22.000Who's going to deal with all the compliance of actually implementing these changes inside hospitals?
02:23:28.000Most hospitals are still using legacy software because the software provider.
02:23:33.000Has lobbied the government in a way where only they're allowed to do that.1.00
02:23:39.000So a lot of the bottlenecks in actually having AIs just take over and massively improve the human society and our hospitals, our legal systems, our government systems, where most of the payroll is going into, is just bottlenecked by a lot of compliance and regulation.1.00
02:23:58.000And so that's why I feel the human beings are still necessary to effect the change because these laws and regulations were built for us.
02:24:08.000And it also seems like we have to demand that those systems be usurped.
02:24:28.000That's why this messiness and this need for getting all people on the same page and actually steering the society in a positive way, our jobs will probably be more steered towards that problem solving at a different level of abstraction, maybe more need for EQ.
02:24:45.000More need for actually like understanding differences of opinion and still like a leadership quality, ability to understand people, and ability to convince people.
02:24:58.000These are the skills that will be even more important in a world where like actual work can be done by AIs, but effecting the change in our society, in our country, still needs human beings because the systems are messy.
02:25:15.000It's a weird world we're in right now.
02:25:19.000That said, there's a lot of things that can still go wrong when you give so much power to specific companies and they deploy all these bots and then anybody can use them in weird ways.
02:25:35.000You don't even know if you're talking to a real person anymore.
02:25:39.000They're like people who just run AI responses and chat with 500 people at once.
02:27:30.000And it's also scary that social media companies want to build more of these kind of like companionship apps because they know that, okay, their only job is to get you engaged more and that's the only way to sell more ads and make more money.
02:27:45.000And clearly, companionship is a way to get you engaged more.
02:29:45.000You're like, I'd be right there with him.
02:29:48.000You know, it's too confusing to our system to have something that looks exactly like the thing that you desire, that is actually interested in you.