In this episode, Dr. Bruce Lipton explains why he thinks that HIV is not a virus at all, and why no one else in the scientific community has ever said so. Dr. Lipton is a professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, who has spent the last 30 years researching HIV/AIDS. He is also the author of the book, "Virus Biology and the AIDS Epidemic" and is a regular contributor to the New York Times and the BBC. He is a leading expert in the field of retroviruses, and is one of the few people in the world with a PhD in HIV and AIDS, and has been involved in the research and treatment of HIV since the early 1980s, when HIV was first discovered. This episode was produced and edited by Alex Blumberg. Our theme music is by my main amigo, Evan Handyside, and our ad music is courtesy of Epitaph Records, courtesy of Lotuspool Records. The show was mixed and produced by Matthew Boll. Additional music was mixed by Will Witwer and Matthew Boll, and additional mixing and mastering by Patrick Muldowney. Thanks to our sponsor, Caff and our sponsor Droga5 Coffee Roasters, for making great tasting coffee and delicious tasting house ambrosia. and coffee, and thanks to our patron, John Rocha, for the use of our logo and colors, and for making our logo, which we hope you enjoy the coffee and ambiance. Thank you for listening and supporting the podcast and listening to this podcast and supporting us in any way you can do so much of what we can do. Please leave us a review, we really appreciate it. we really do. thank you. We really appreciate the support we can't thank you, really really well, it means a lot of people like you, it really does mean a lot, it's a lot. Thank you, thank you very much, really helps us, really means it, we appreciate it, really, really appreciate you, and we appreciate you. xoxo, Sarah and much more, bye, bye. Sarah, Sarah, Caitie, Rachel, Amy, Emily, Ben, Jack, Natalie, Evan, and Rachel, and Mike, and Jack, etc etc., etc. - Thank you so much, etc, etc. etc. - Rachel, Matt, etc., Rachel, etc... -
00:00:00.000Any of this stuff and how do you know I mean it's a you're talking about retroviruses that's an incredibly intense subject to be researching there's a lot involved in understanding it so understandably people rely on folks like you we rely on someone who has done the work and is Is a professor.
00:00:24.000And when we hear a guy like you saying that HIV doesn't cause AIDS, it's very confusing.
00:00:31.000I'm sure your life is filled with controversy.
00:00:34.000I mean, what is an average day like for you as far as hate mail?
00:01:04.000For people who don't understand, your argument, in a paraphrasing sort of way, is that it's illicit drug use, it's like amyl nitrate and crystal meth, and that is what's destroying the immune systems of these people,
00:01:20.000and then HIV shows up because their immune system is diminished?
00:01:35.000But, of course, if you are what they used to be, at least the first line of AIDS patients, the gay guys, they had hundreds of, in the gay liberation days, hundreds of dates.
00:02:41.000There is, I think, much politics behind it.
00:02:44.000You see, the virus hunters, as we used to be called, or still called, those who were looking for viruses, doing something or another, Their pride is to find something to get the viruses to do something terrible.
00:02:59.000If they do something bad, then they are important.
00:04:09.000All they want to do is replicate and reproduce their own.
00:04:12.000They don't wait 10 or 20 years for something to happen.
00:04:15.000There was, wouldn't you admit, though, if you look, and I watched a lot of people die in the 80s and the 90s in New York, and a number of them were gay.
00:04:29.000Sure, but here's what was interesting, is that most of them were dying from very similar symptoms.
00:04:35.000If you went there, in fact, the majority of AIDS, and you can correct me when I'm wrong here, but the majority of AIDS patients die of starvation.
00:04:43.000It's very difficult for them to hold food, to retain food.
00:04:46.000That was really, when you went to the wards, and I did, you'd see all these age patients, and they were terribly skinny.
00:04:52.000And actually what happened was, yes, the virus would destroy your immune system, and you'd be exposed to, you'd get carposysarcoma, which were these rare skin cancers that only old people get.
00:05:27.000It's not a point of view, it's a question.
00:05:29.000But one of the things that there was clearly in their bloodstream when you get tested for what they call HIV, they're not seeing the virus.
00:05:38.000What you get tested for and what shows up on your test is antibodies to the virus, right?
00:05:58.000Made by yourself or induced by somebody.
00:06:00.000However, though, yes, the body mounts a defense with antibodies.
00:06:05.000What the theory, and I'll just add to this, what the theory was that what happens is it's such an onslaught on your immune system, the immune system eventually gives up and cannot produce enough antibodies, your immune system gets killed.
00:06:17.000Along comes David Ho, I know you know the name.
00:06:48.000So the question becomes, if protease inhibitors, which by the way, now you used to have to take, as you know, a bunch of pills.
00:06:54.000Now it's down to four or five pills a day.
00:06:57.000There are a lot of people living with HIV that the argument goes, at least from what I've seen, would have been dead and now are living very normal lives.
00:09:45.000But we have to go back to it for a second.
00:09:49.000The fact remains that in the 80s and 90s, I knew a lot of people, a lot of gay men, who were dying, and I watched them die very specifically.
00:10:18.000You don't see that anymore in the gay community.
00:10:20.000And all of them that I know are taking these drugs that seem to be wonder drugs because what they've done is kept people alive and And healthy and muscular and vibrant.
00:10:32.000You just don't, in the gay community, HIV is no longer a death sentence.
00:10:37.000In fact, HIV isn't even something they talk about as much.
00:10:41.000And so the fact remains that you don't have an epidemic of death.
00:10:46.000In the gay community, as you did in 85, 91, 92, you know, until David Ho came along with protease inhibitors.
00:11:10.000Well, it was, at least according to the records that I found, and they write up yourself, Michael Callan, for example, you may know that name.
00:13:36.000Isn't the idea, though, behind killing human cells, especially new cells, the idea that because the cancer, because these are retroviruses, retroviruses are defined as something that creates its own RNA that copies the DNA of the cell that's invading, right?
00:13:49.000So, in other words, it mimics, it creates a clone of itself, essentially.
00:13:59.000Isn't that how you would define a retrovirus?
00:14:00.000Yeah, it makes an RNA to convert it to a DNA and back to RNA. Exactly.
00:14:05.000So it creates almost a clone of itself.
00:14:06.000So when you create a medicine that kills the virus, you're also creating a medicine that's going to kill the actual cell it's inhabiting.
00:14:12.000By the way, how much does that resemble computer viruses?
00:14:15.000I mean, computer viruses and biological viruses at a certain point in time, you know, when you look at that, the fact that it copies the host.
00:14:31.000They're terrifying, but what we've learned a lot, it seems, from these different viruses and how they react, and correct me if I'm wrong, I know you don't probably believe in protease inhibitors, but...
00:14:39.000I believe that they work, but they kill the liver and they screw up your metabolism.
00:16:30.000Half of these AIDS patients, so-called HIV AIDS patients, are dying from, although we have a huge list of so-called AIDS-defining diseases, 27. That's not enough.
00:16:43.000With those drugs, you cause heart disease, lung disease, pneumonia, kidney disease.
00:19:09.000And what they do is that it used to be the viral load would be huge.
00:19:13.000And when you take the protein inhibitors, etc., the cocktail, it reduces the viral load to levels where your immune system It does not have to work to get rid of it because what it does is it creates a Teflon sort of coating on the helper T cell and the virus cannot latch on.
00:19:32.000Now what happens according to what I read in Scientific American is the virus eventually starts to disguise itself and the cell no longer puts that Teflon coating on and it can finally latch on.
00:19:56.000But the reality is you said yourself 10-15 minutes ago, the What you find in AIDS patients, even in those dying from it, is not the virus, only antibody against it.
00:20:06.000The virus load is a new term and a new invention of the establishment to make it sound horrible, what isn't horrible, but it can't even be found.
00:21:26.000But I mean, the evidence was already in there.
00:21:28.000All he found was antibodies, not virus.
00:21:31.000Yeah, for you guys, Gallo was the scientist in NIH, correct me if I'm wrong, the scientist in NIH who actually isolated what you would call the AIDS virus, the Acquired Immunity Deficiency Virus.
00:22:59.000Well, that's almost the argument with HIV. What happened was, because we're always exposed to pathogens and different viruses, your immune system is always working to fight those things and does a very good job of it.
00:23:12.000You get the immunity-acquired deficiency syndrome.
00:23:17.000You get a virus that attacks directly the immune system.
00:23:21.000Now, that's why young men were getting very rare cancers that only old men get from the Mediterranean.
00:23:49.000And there is not one in any of these statistics that they published faithfully until 84. When the virus came, of course, we changed overnight.
00:23:56.000It was from Republican to Democrat, Catholic to Protestant.
00:24:28.000He's like, he doesn't want to offend AIDS. No, no.
00:24:30.000You're attributing the mortality rate, the high mortality of death for people who are HIV positive to actually the amount of drugs they do and not the...
00:27:03.000Until I questioned HIV. All of these connections were gone.
00:27:09.000So you are the example of someone who is punished for thinking outside of the box.
00:27:15.000But let me ask you, do you have peer-reviewed research?
00:27:19.000Peer-reviewed primary research to support your theory, because you're dealing with a lot of research on the other side, and a lot of money was put into it by a number of independent organizations that looked at the data.
00:27:31.000I was going to just show you that last paper, but anyway, we'll have it in the back here.
00:27:35.000Because isn't that the big question for a scientist?
00:28:04.000Your body must be just trying to find zinc and rebuild loads.
00:28:09.000My buddy said to me, my buddy goes, I can go to 24 Hour Fitness right now and I can see six gorgeous guys that I can bang and not even look in their face.
00:28:56.000They last everything that is mainstream, but they exclude everything that challenges their own investments and their own...
00:29:04.000But that's a little unfair to scientists who are really diligently working on trying to find a cure for a lot of diseases.
00:29:11.000As you know, I'm sure, and you know them, there are a lot of scientists who are independent thinkers who want to make a difference, like yourself, and it seems to me that more of those voices would have...
00:29:25.000Would have made themselves heard in the, I guess it's now 25 years that the virus has been in the news at least.
00:29:34.000So if that's the case, that's where I'm confused.
00:30:23.000There are a lot of gay people, I think, though, if they were sitting here, would have a very strong argument for you to say, listen, I was dying.
00:32:00.000How many people, how many scientists are working on curing HIV? How many scientists are working in the field on HIV and AIDS? 20,000, I would say.
00:32:11.000How do they not understand what you're saying and how do they not see what you're saying?
00:32:17.000How is it not being discovered by all of them?
00:32:39.000He's a British country doctor who invented vaccination in 1793. Not in 1973. 1793. For 60 pounds that he got from somewhere, he developed the pox vaccine.
00:32:54.000It's still called pox because vacca is the cow.
00:32:57.000He extracted from the cow and successfully protected people against cows.
00:33:18.000And he said, maybe if I... And that's what happened.
00:33:19.000And here we have the scientist, the most advanced and most sophisticated and by far the most expensive scientific establishment that has ever lived on this planet.
00:33:30.000The American scientists to get 10 to 20 billion dollars a year to research AIDS. And they keep saying, oh, we need a vaccine.
00:34:07.000That's why Gallo, the nation's leading AIDS researcher, had to steal it from France because he couldn't get it out of people who had antibody against the virus.
00:34:15.000But they don't ask those basic questions.
00:35:43.000When the journalist or any scientist really speaks up and threatens their income, they say immediately, oh, carry malice, junkie, crazy guy, disperse, Nazi, what have you, mass murderer.
00:35:56.000And so they have immediately this kind of propaganda.
00:36:47.000It was coming in the 70s and in the 80s.
00:36:49.000And all of a sudden, we have AIDS. It's all truck-related.
00:36:55.000If it were sexually transmitted disease, we have 4.5 million heterosexually produced, Dr. Duesberg, if you can, just try to talk in the microphone.
00:37:43.000It connects exactly with drugs, not with sex and not with virus.
00:37:46.000Well, here's what I read, and maybe you can help me with this.
00:37:49.000Juan Enriquez, who is a venture capitalist who invests in different kinds of medical technology and deals with all this stuff, he said, what they found was there was a genetic variation in all people of Northern European extraction who had survived the Black Plague.
00:38:04.000That particular genetic variation makes you very resistant to the HIV virus.
00:38:09.000The only way a straight man gets HIV is if it's pushed into his bloodstream with a needle or...
00:38:15.000Through anal sex or something like that or blood transfusion.
00:38:19.000Having regular vaginal sex with a woman and in fact even gay men who are having doing the actual fucking doing the actual sex as opposed to getting it were the ones that survived the epidemic.
00:40:09.000They produce four to five million babies a year, and none of them get AIDS. No, but that wasn't altogether what I was saying.
00:40:16.000The explanation for mainstream science would be the reason gay men get AIDS is because there's something called high-risk, low-risk behavior.
00:40:22.000When you have unprotected anal sex with another man, you are...
00:41:34.000Porn is going to have to start doing it in Nevada.
00:41:37.000Yeah, what they're doing is they're saying you have to wear condoms, dental dams, dental dams during oral sex.
00:41:45.000What's even worse is that there's even something in there that says that if you're a husband and wife and you just want to broadcast sex on a webcam...
00:41:52.000You have to wear a condom in your own house.
00:41:53.000No, you have to have a permit that costs like a lot of money.
00:42:30.000So, Dr. Duesberg, how many people, when you have these conversations and you talk about this connection, how many people think you're crazy?
00:44:15.000Can you talk a little bit about cancer since you work on it?
00:44:17.000Well, I want to stick to this HIV. But I wanted to tell you, see, more than that, hardly any scientist wants to have a name in a field as naive or romantic as I was.
00:44:31.000And say, okay, we have to go the other way.
00:46:16.000What is their response to your arguments that it's all drug-related and having something that we can only detect it in the form of an antibody and saying that that's what's killing you is ridiculous.
00:46:45.000But doctor, there are a lot of doctors who are like medical doctors that you go to when you have HIV and you take your drugs and they're in the trenches.
00:46:53.000They've been there a long time and they are involved in prescribing you a certain amount of medication to keep, quote unquote, your viral load to a manageable level.
00:47:04.000These are people in the trenches that watched people die and are now keeping people alive with those drugs.
00:47:11.000So I'm just curious as to all those doctors that are doing that in Africa, in Europe, and in the United States, in East Asia, etc.
00:47:21.000I know there's a lot of money there, but they are doing that work.
00:47:25.000It seems to me that if it wasn't working, if they hadn't seen direct results, and I'm talking about non-drug users, if they hadn't seen direct results, say, in Africa with heterosexual men when they were dying and now they are dying, it seems to me a lot of people would say,
00:47:42.000hey, guys, people are still dying at the same rate or whatever, regardless of lifestyle change.
00:47:47.000People stick to their lifestyle for the most part.
00:48:03.000It's a small, it's not by the troves, as you say, it's a very small...
00:48:08.000It's always the same risk groups and they get these drugs.
00:48:11.000So if you are a real scientist rather than a doctor prescribing pills and doing what all other doctors do and following what they call standard of care, if you violate and say, I don't prescribe anything, they come and sue you sometimes.
00:48:27.000But what you need to prove that these drugs are doing even these things In animals or in humans, you need to run a controlled study, a truly controlled study.
00:48:39.000You have to have, let's say here I identify 100 HIV-positive men, gay or heterosexual, whatever they are, and I have another 100 matched, same age, same lifestyle, maybe soldiers of the US Army, they have that too,
00:49:00.000But when you use street trucks, and this truck, and that truck, and that counter truck, and drop them, and don't comply, and throw them down the toilet, all of these stories are very well known.
00:51:19.000There is no such study, except the early one with ACT, which you already pushed aside a little bit because you heard it so often.
00:51:25.000Oh yeah, first of all, we have much improved AZT now.
00:51:29.000Well, AZT is still terminating DNA synthesis.
00:51:31.000You use less now because you don't want to die during the trial as they did first.
00:51:36.000But you're explaining it as if it's like a conspiracy, like they all are aware of it and they're poisoning them less to keep them around longer, but they know they're selling them poison.
00:51:46.000I don't know whether they're all totally aware of it.
00:51:48.000Well, someone has to be aware of it to consciously lower the dose to keep people alive longer, right?
00:55:04.000And then they're neutralized by antibody and you cannot even find them anymore.
00:55:07.000When you look hard enough, like with the methods we use now, viral load and all this bullshit work, expressions for finding a needle in a haystack, they don't do anything in any cells.
00:55:26.000Well, cancer is a very serious different business.
00:55:29.000There you have one cell, one, not thousands or millions infected, one that changes its chromosome.
00:55:39.000That is possibly a result of a casinogen or some accident.
00:55:43.000Normally we have 46, all of our cells 46, and then they behave well, the programs work well, and the controls work well, in three billion years of tuning up of life, that work pretty well.
00:55:55.000Now you change one around and make a new species, and it screws up all of these controls.
00:56:29.000Because there's no chemotherapy that can tell the DNA of a species or from a cancer cell that just came out of your own DNA. It can't distinguish.
00:57:04.000So that's what the chemotherapy works on, on replicating cells.
00:57:08.000And the little edge we have is your heart, your brain, your Lungs even, they don't grow in adults.
00:57:17.000They replace things here and then, but they don't.
00:57:19.000The blood, the skin, the guts, they grow every day like crazy.
00:57:23.000And that's where you see the effects of chemotherapy first.
00:57:26.000They become immune deficient, they lose hair, they lose weight, Exactly as the guys you described, when they take ACT and these drugs, they cannot keep their food anymore because the intestines are screwed up.
00:57:38.000What are your thoughts on the New Age ideas of keeping the body alkaline to avoid cancer?
00:58:23.000Is it terrifying knowing as much as you know about viruses?
00:58:30.000Is it terrifying being a person, thinking about your body constantly at war with all these different invading armies that are trying to kill it?
00:58:38.000That's what these viruses are, essentially.
00:58:40.000But we have emerged out of an ocean of microbes and viruses.
00:58:45.000That's why we're here, because we have an immune system that is totally equipped to...
00:59:29.000I mean, in fact, one of the things that is always underlooked when you read history is that most people you read about in history, including presidents, kings, peasants, nobility, all lost at least one child.
00:59:42.000That was a huge part of the character of our ancestors, our very recent ancestors.
01:00:22.000They didn't know what it takes to maintain an optimal immune system.
01:00:27.000Even if you eat so-called junk food now, in Burger King, you have a salad leaf there with some vitamins in between, and a tomato slice, it may not be the...
01:00:35.000But we didn't know it caused scurvy, did we?
01:01:42.000What I'm saying is that what's interesting to me is that you clearly are a scientist who has immersed himself in the traditional notion of peer-reviewed study, of double-blind study.
01:01:54.000So does this change the way you look at this argument?
01:02:52.000But the fact of the matter is, even with that drug use, if you go to the Abbey, if you go to these places in West Hollywood, they're not dying by the droves the way they were in the 80s and 90s.
01:03:51.000Show me one microbe or one virus that causes a fatal disease when it's neutralized by antibody and you don't see it making DNA and RNA and protein.
01:10:34.000Finding out the structure of the retrovirus, the genes of retrovirus, that was me, GAC, pollen, and the three genes that look like acid, the size of it.
01:11:16.000No, it was very clear that under those conditions, that virus, neutralized by antibody, Doing whatever it's supposed to do 10 years after infection.
01:11:30.000If you get infected by flu or herpes or syphilis or mumps or anything at any party, well, if nothing happens in a week, every doctor will tell you you got away from it.
01:12:13.000It's a iatrogenic, a doctor-induced disease.
01:12:16.000They give you mercury, and the standard of care was one gram of mercury, the equivalent of ACT, around the turn of the century, a day for a year to cure your syphilis.
01:12:29.000Yeah, by that time, you were Meshuggah.
01:12:31.000Schumann walked in the line, Nietzsche got Meshuggah, and lots of people went...
01:15:11.000It's hard for people to listen to this and not think that it's almost impossible to be true.
01:15:19.000That there could be some sort of a gigantic scandal on this larger level and it's all just about pocketing money.
01:15:27.000How many of the people that are involved in it do you think are actually aware that there's no real connection between HIV and AIDS? Is there a percentage of the people?
01:16:12.000They would be, and as long as they can, when you ask them, or I used to ask them, they always say, well, I'm not an expert on what gay lifestyle is.
01:17:36.000And I thought they would hug me and say, so you have done, you have used it for the way, but the opposite was the case.
01:17:43.000Then I couldn't, maybe, this paper here, this is a rebirth of one that was published before, two years before.
01:17:51.000AIDS, to me, it's so politically and socially charged as opposed to any other disease because of the fact that it so predominantly affects the gay community.
01:18:54.000And now here, these 10,000 plus HIV-AIDS researchers in these labs, working for 20, 25 years or later.
01:19:01.000Have you ever heard, with this most deadly virus, as the New York Times, it was the deadly virus, always the HIV... But you're leaving something out.
01:19:18.000And not one of them ever came down with AIDS from this deadly virus.
01:19:23.000Neither Gallo, nor Fauci, nor Montaigne, nor Levy, none of them.
01:19:27.000They have it in Earl Myers and mass produce it for biochemical studies to make vaccine You have to mass produce virus, and then you take the proteins out and vaccinate.
01:19:38.000And for the test, you have to make antibody against it, you need tons of virus.
01:19:42.000Not one, not a technician, not a collaborator.
01:19:46.000Of these 10,000 researchers that daily work with it, have gotten a virus from the one that they call.
01:21:34.000Not everybody in the streets in the 80s and 90s who were fighting and organizing and putting all their time into this were doing drugs who were HIV positive.
01:21:43.000Okay, but he's saying, and he's saying even today, That the people that are testing positive for drugs, they are junkies and drug, or testing positive for HIV, are junkies and drug users primarily, still.
01:22:30.000Their lifespan was increasing until 87, and then it topped.
01:22:37.000So you're saying that in showing that they had the antibody, that their body was successfully fighting off of it, but even though they showed this antibody, that was an excuse to introduce AZT into the system to combat this thing that was creating this antibody,
01:22:55.000But a lot of people were getting, a lot of hemophiliac people were getting weird diseases, which is why they got tested in the first place.
01:23:01.000It wasn't like people were getting tests for HIV. They get tested because of blood transfusions all the time.
01:23:07.000But there were a lot of people that I knew that all of a sudden were getting...
01:24:08.000That same guy would be alive today if he had protease inhibitors because a lot of the people that I saw who were dying who took the brain are now around.
01:24:14.000Well, if you did that and not take AZT, maybe you're right.
01:24:17.000AIDS was killing people who didn't Look, listen man, I'm sorry.
01:24:23.000I watched too many people die with my own eyes.
01:24:31.000What I'm saying is, are you completely confident in saying that you understand that person's lifestyle 100% and you know they weren't doing something that you might have not known about?
01:24:41.000I'm not completely confident about it.
01:24:44.000But I do know that most people will tell you who lived through this, and doctors who are involved in this will say, what got these guys sick was obviously something they caught through either gay sex, through intravenous drug use, and by the way, they died in a very similar way of things like wasting disease,
01:25:03.000pneumonia, Karposi's sarcoma, terrible sores, all that stuff.
01:25:12.000If someone goes and they find you when you're sick and then they start treating you when you're sick, the issue with that is how many people are HIV positive or test for the antibody but have nothing wrong with them and then do no drugs,
01:25:28.000take no medication and live healthy lives and then eventually get tested again and don't show the antibody.
01:25:36.000They don't show their bodies fighting it off.
01:26:06.000Can I just be clear on what you're saying, actually?
01:26:08.000You might also be saying that if you get the HIV virus, which you can catch, now you have it in your system.
01:26:15.000If you're also doing things that are weakening your immune system, like poppers and things, that's going to compromise your immune system to the point where you're going to get all these, where I suppose the HIV virus is going to create a situation where you're going to,
01:26:32.000it'll further erode your immune system and you'll get these other diseases.
01:26:35.000That is, again, something that would be very testable, but CDC are not very straight or not very honorable about this.
01:26:44.000They never report pneumonias or Kaposi's sarcomas of HIV-free people as pneumonias sarcomas.
01:26:55.000When you're HIV positive, then they report these diseases in gay men or in junkies that are not antibody positive, are not even in the same journals.
01:27:16.000How can you have a common cause for dementia, weight loss, fever, pneumonia, Kaposi's sarcoma, diarrhea, leukemia, and whatever, wasting disease?
01:27:27.000It's 27 altogether from one cause, from one virus that doesn't do anything in the first place.
01:27:32.000Lumping them all together is nothing but a money grab.
01:28:06.000I wish I knew how many people out there didn't do any drugs, lived a normal, healthy lifestyle, were gay, had sex with the wrong dude, boom, died of AIDS. That's what we had always heard.
01:28:18.000The story behind AIDS was never the drug use.
01:28:21.000Until I read Spin Magazine's article in 1993, I had never even heard it brought up.
01:28:25.000When I read that article about what you were talking about, I was like, this is crazy.
01:29:45.000So the HIV virus, how do, since we can test for the antibodies, and by the way, a lot of people who test for the antibodies are what we were talking about, intravenous drug users, gay men, and then of course in Africa it's a heterosexual disease.
01:30:14.000It takes, on average, from the literature, hemophiliacs, for example, couples with and without, on the average, 1,000 unprotected contacts to convert a positive to a negative.
01:30:28.000That cannot be a normal way of application.
01:30:31.000I have to say, this is a very eye-opening discussion.
01:30:33.000I mean, I have to say that, you know, when you've been taught one thing for 25 years, as we have, and then you come along, you're raising questions that are very interesting.
01:30:45.000We're too stupid to answer those questions, so this is the problem.
01:30:47.000No, no, it's the matter of information.
01:31:23.000I brought this up to Dr. Drew about eight years ago.
01:31:26.000I've been following your work for a long time, and I brought it up to Dr. Drew a long time ago, like the last time I was on Loveline.
01:31:31.000I don't even know how long ago that was.
01:31:33.000But he dismissed it immediately without even considering it, and then looked at your website for about five minutes and said something was wrong there.
01:31:44.000But I suspect he might be full of shit.
01:31:46.000Because he's full of shit about marijuana.
01:31:48.000He's always talking about marijuana being unbelievably addictive and the addictive syndromes we find to connect to the marijuana.
01:31:55.000The people that show any addiction to marijuana, either they're unusual cases, extremely unusual, or it's a psychological addiction, much like gambling or masturbating or anything.
01:32:05.000So for him to, as a doctor, to spout that...
01:32:09.000Most doctors study, they're very orthodox.
01:32:29.000Orthodoxy is, correct me if I'm wrong, is forced on you in the medical establishment.
01:32:33.000Well, not only that, the amount of nutrition information that they're given during medical school is so minimal and constantly changing.
01:32:39.000You know, there's constant studies that are going on.
01:32:42.000I always remember, you know, when people have a certain amount of knowledge in their field and they don't keep up, and time goes by, 10, 20 years, like, you might as well be the average person on the street.
01:32:55.000Like, you know shit from 20 years ago.
01:32:57.000Things have changed radically in 20 years.
01:33:09.000I love watching it just because it's so nostalgic, but it's an unbelievable example of how things have gotten super, super complicated, super, super quickly.
01:33:18.000Dr. Duisberg, did you know that Colorado and Washington State made marijuana legal?
01:34:50.000The real problem is you got a bunch of guys in the DEA that would probably like to go bust scumbags and probably like to actually make a dent in their community.
01:34:59.000And they're in a situation where something is law.
01:35:35.000It's like the difference between going to a medical marijuana dispensary and stepping on some kid's neck who's a college student who just got in because he was high and took the job.
01:35:44.000And going to a meth lab is a very different experience.
01:35:47.000You drive out into the middle of fucking Palmdale and you see a warehouse with smoke coming out of it.
01:36:07.000Whereas they can go to a medical marijuana dispensary and just walk in and, you know, take everybody's money and scare the shit out of them.
01:36:17.000The DEA are a bunch of guys that are fucking DEA agents.
01:36:20.000Which, if you're gonna have a regular society, you gotta recognize what's dangerous.
01:36:25.000I mean, not a regular society, but a healthy society.
01:36:27.000You gotta realize what's actually dangerous and what's not.
01:36:30.000I'm not saying things should be illegal.
01:36:32.000I'm not saying you should go to jail for doing anything.
01:36:35.000But I'm saying there should be certain consequences for knowingly and willfully pushing addictive and dangerous drugs on people, like meth.
01:36:45.000There should be a social consequence for it.
01:36:47.000And that's where something like the DEA should come into play.
01:37:31.000The bath salts thing is they're taking drugs and they just change one molecule and they can say not for human consumption and sell it over the counter everywhere.
01:37:58.000You could sell it all day long and people figure out that it's there for you to smoke and get high and it's just like a meth with something changed on it.
01:38:13.000Fucking government, the problem is there's too many people.
01:38:17.000And trying to manage 300 million people is ridiculous.
01:38:20.000And trying to manage it by having government nanny groups that stop you from doing a bunch of shit that doesn't hurt anybody.
01:38:28.000Well, now you're just going to ruin the listening to you about anything.
01:38:31.000Because I don't want to listen to you about that.
01:38:32.000The marijuana argument is one of the main reasons why people have a distrust of cops.
01:38:36.000It's not about crime stopping or anything else.
01:38:39.000It's like the idea that I could be doing something I love doing and I've got to look out for cops.
01:38:44.000Because if I get busted doing something I love doing that hurts no one, I might wind up spending the night in a cage somewhere with a bunch of criminals.
01:39:25.000We need to have a compassionate way of looking at drug legalization, and one of the ways is looking at the people that are making a living from drug illegalizing, from drugs being illegal, and go after those people with positivity and figure out a way where they can make a better living.
01:39:42.000Transfer the people in the DEA that are responsible for going after marijuana and find fucking better use for them.
01:39:49.000Actually put them in some sort of a positive function in the community instead of being monetary vampires.
01:40:13.000It does when it's marijuana because you can't act like it's 1950 anymore.
01:40:17.000It's 2012. Everybody can get on their phone and they can Google something in five minutes and read all the, well, you know, they might call schizophrenia.
01:41:26.000Look, if it was only indica weed, I would still smoke it every now and then when you wanted to chill, have a nice meal, hang out with my lady.
01:42:53.000Your story is a fascinating one and Brian and I have really struggled with this.
01:42:58.000We've had this conversation without you here many times and neither one of us is really qualified to have it.
01:43:05.000So to have you here and to talk about this crazy subject, I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people that are responding to this in a bunch of very different ways.
01:45:14.000There should be, if you are a respected scientist, which you are, there should be some concerted effort to prove you wrong.
01:45:22.000It seems like you've made enough waves with your book, you're in a prestigious enough position at the University of California, Berkeley, that you should be considered and at least refuted by the people that continue.
01:45:33.000Instead of doing that, they've decided to ignore you completely.
01:46:28.000It was in cocaine, in codeine, which is the syrup that buyer made against cough.
01:46:34.000It was made illegal in 1907. Damn, they figured out coke was bad for you in 1907. You take it once and you're like, oh, this can't be good.
01:46:43.000Yeah, they're like, this is going to ruin the world.
01:46:44.000Because you don't do anything on coke.
01:46:46.000Is that in the U.S.? Yeah, the U.S. government, the first effort from the U.S. government to control cocaine was the inclusion of the Pure Food and Drug Act, effective January 1st, 1907, which required the labeling of products to disclose the contents, including alcohol,
01:47:02.000morphine, opium, cocaine, heroin, alpha or beta.
01:47:05.000So what it was essentially saying that, oh, cannabis, a bunch of different things, but there was no labeling back then.
01:47:27.000They regulated and taxed opium and heroin in 1915, but it wasn't until 1970. So what you're saying is true, that after the post-Vietnam War, those people from that era forth, that's when the real drug problem started.
01:47:41.000That's the popularized hit in America.
01:47:42.000And in 1970, that's when they cracked down on all the psychedelics.
01:47:45.000That's when mushrooms and acid and everything else became legal, which is incredible.
01:47:50.000Can you think that all those years before that, even though marijuana's been illegal since the 30s, acid and mushrooms and all that shit, they were legal until 1970. Crazy, man.