The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #372 - Mariana van Zeller

00:00:06.000 Hello, freaks. 1.00

00:00:08.000 Yeah, I'm talking to you.

00:00:09.000 Listen, we're back.

00:00:11.000 I know it's been a while, folks. 0.86

00:00:12.000 I know I've been super busy, and I've been down to one a week over the last couple of weeks, but almost out of the woods with this new TV show, so shit will get normal any second now. 0.87

00:00:23.000 This week, today... 0.92

00:00:25.000 We have Mariana Van Zeller and Darren Foster.

00:00:29.000 And then tomorrow, Joey Diaz.

00:00:30.000 And I think we're going to get Marc Maron in this week as well.

00:00:34.000 So, lots of podcasts.

00:00:37.000 You're going to get annoyed with me again.

00:00:38.000 Then you start getting used to me.

00:00:40.000 And then you'll be like, dude, I'm tired of that show.

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00:04:51.000 Alright freaks, we gotta get rolling here. 1.00

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00:05:05.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

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00:05:19.000 So, with me today are Darren Foster and Mariana Von Zeller, and I first found out about Mariana from the show on Vanguard, the OxyContin Express, which I remember watching it in my house and thinking,

00:05:37.000 this is the craziest thing I have ever heard in my life.

00:05:40.000 I couldn't believe that all the things you were telling me about the whole system I think?

00:06:03.000 And I watched it and I said, this is so far beyond out of control that it's amazing that I'm just hearing about it now from a documentary on current TV, which is like, you know, not the most widely viewed channel.

00:06:19.000 I mean, I felt like this should be on every channel on the front page of every newspaper.

00:06:25.000 There's a hijacking going on down there.

00:06:27.000 They've hijacked the legal system somehow or another and absolutely willfully Put these things into position in order to extract money and do it at the expense of all these people being addicted.

00:06:40.000 I mean, how did you find out about this and how did you go about doing that piece?

00:06:45.000 It's interesting you say that.

00:06:46.000 I mean, it was exactly the same for us, the same surprise that we got when we started looking into this story.

00:06:51.000 We found a little news clipping on one newspaper about some deaths in Florida because of prescription drugs and there were more pain clinics around than McDonald's.

00:07:00.000 And we thought, wow, this is really interesting.

00:07:01.000 We should investigate this.

00:07:02.000 And we started looking into it, and then we found out that there were seven people every day dying from prescription pill abuse, that all over the U.S. there are more people dying from a prescription pill overdose than heroin, cocaine, and ecstasy combined, that just last year it surpassed car accidents to become the number one cause of accidental deaths in the United States.

00:07:22.000 So this was a story that we're just going to turn our heads away from.

00:07:26.000 My God.

00:07:27.000 When I watched it, I went to work and I told all these people about it.

00:07:33.000 I was like, you got to see this.

00:07:34.000 This is crazy.

00:07:35.000 And they didn't believe me.

00:07:37.000 Like when I was saying, I go, do you know in Florida, you can go to a doctor and get a prescription and then they don't have a database.

00:07:43.000 You can go to another doctor across the street and get a new prescription and just ping pong your way back and forth down the highway.

00:07:49.000 And they're everywhere.

00:07:51.000 You know, the most insane thing was that we spoke to local journalists who had sort of covered this story a little bit.

00:07:56.000 And they told us, look, you'll go by pain clinics here and you'll see lines of people and out of state cars parked outside and literally lines of people.

00:08:05.000 I mean, very long lines around the corner of people waiting to get into these pain clinics to get these prescription drugs.

00:08:11.000 And we thought, okay, this is the kind of thing that you hear about.

00:08:13.000 We'll never be able to film or witness ourselves.

00:08:15.000 And then it was easy.

00:08:17.000 I mean, as soon as we left the airport, went straight to this one street that we knew had a lot of pain clinics, and there it was.

00:08:23.000 The parking lot's full of out-of-state plates.

00:08:25.000 I mean, people driving all the way from Kentucky, Ohio, as far off as Massachusetts down to Florida to buy their pills.

00:08:32.000 And they pack their cars with people, and then they bring them back and sell them for five, ten times the price that they buy them in Florida.

00:08:38.000 So it's a racket.

00:08:40.000 It's so hard to believe.

00:08:42.000 When I watched your show, it was so hard to wrap my head around the fact that there was one area that was so completely out of control.

00:08:50.000 Because where I grew up on the East Coast or here in California, I've never seen anything like that.

00:08:55.000 And I never had any inkling that this was something that had to be dealt with somewhere.

00:09:01.000 So watching that was a wow.

00:09:03.000 You really freaked me out.

00:09:06.000 When we tried to film one of the lines, we knew there was this one pain clinic that a lot of people liked going to because it was super easy to get drugs.

00:09:14.000 Basically, you just go in and out and get whatever you wanted.

00:09:16.000 And we started filming outside and we set our tripod and we were across the street on the other side of this sort of...

00:09:23.000 It wasn't a freeway.

00:09:24.000 It was sort of a big street.

00:09:25.000 And as soon as we started filming, these guys came out and they started chasing us.

00:09:30.000 And they asked us what we were doing and we said we were just filming out here.

00:09:34.000 Big guys.

00:09:35.000 Big guys.

00:09:35.000 I mean big, big guys.

00:09:37.000 And they started chasing us and we ran out of gas because every time we tried to stop and get gas in our car, we were running low.

00:09:45.000 They would get out of the car and it was just me.

00:09:57.000 We're good to go.

00:10:05.000 But those guys were actually later indicted.

00:10:07.000 They were busted by the DEA. They were later indicted.

00:10:10.000 But in the indictment, they found that they had made like $40 million in two years off these pain clinics.

00:10:15.000 And they're in jail for like 17 years now because I think one of them was even convicted of hiring someone to take out somebody else or something like that.

00:10:24.000 Yeah, a gun for hire.

00:10:25.000 Yeah, I mean, these were dangerous people.

00:10:27.000 These were not people that you want to be.

00:10:28.000 Yeah, so not good people always getting in behind these rackets.

00:10:32.000 So when you ran out of gas, what happened?

00:10:34.000 So we ran out of gas, and we had just interviewed some law enforcement there, and he was calling 911. I was calling the contact that we had for law enforcement there and saying, please help us.

00:10:45.000 We don't know what to do.

00:10:46.000 And in the meantime, the 911, I mean, we were about five minutes later.

00:10:49.000 We were on 995, and so, like, Highway Patrol just saw that we were pulled over anyway, and they came, and then...

00:10:54.000 But we stopped, and then the other guy stopped behind us, and they didn't come out of the car, because I think they realized that we were calling 911, but they just stayed there, and it was just to intimidate us.

00:11:03.000 So they stayed there, and then they made the story up to the police that we had been stalking them, that they had an ex-girlfriend that was stalking them, so they thought that we were stalking the ex-girlfriend or something like that.

00:11:15.000 She wants it, bro!

00:11:17.000 She's filming because she wants me.

00:11:19.000 I mean, you do have stalker tendencies.

00:11:22.000 Coming from my husband.

00:11:25.000 Wow.

00:11:25.000 So, the non-database thing, that has to be a criminal thing.

00:11:30.000 I mean, there's no way that could, in this day and age, there's no way that could be by accident, right?

00:11:36.000 They did pass a drug control plan there now that is in place.

00:11:44.000 What does that mean?

00:11:44.000 It means that now doctors, they have a database in place basically that they are supposed to check to see if a customer is coming or a client is coming to get more drugs.

00:11:55.000 Right.

00:11:56.000 So that you can't go what's called doctor shopping from pain clinic to pain clinic or pharmacy to pharmacy to get all these meds.

00:12:02.000 However, it's not mandatory.

00:12:04.000 But, I mean, it's far better right now in Florida than it was back when we went.

00:12:08.000 How is it not mandatory?

00:12:11.000 I mean, it all has to do with these privacy laws.

00:12:13.000 They don't want your medical records to be accessible to the government, basically.

00:12:18.000 And so people that are very, I guess, worried about our privacy, which maybe we...

00:12:25.000 Think about differently now with the whole NSA scandal, but I mean like, you know, people are definitely, that's the resistance to doing the prescription monitoring programs in a lot of places.

00:12:35.000 But most states have them these days.

00:12:37.000 Florida was one of the biggest states that didn't have one for a long time.

00:12:40.000 But now with obviously so many people dying of this and this sort of bad reputation the state was getting, they decided to do something.

00:12:48.000 Crack down a little bit, but it's still happening.

00:12:50.000 And two years after we did the OxyContin Express, we actually were filming a story about heroin abuse in Massachusetts and how because of the OxyContin epidemic, a lot of kids...

00:13:00.000 Then went on to do heroin for whatever reason because Oxy was getting more expensive or it was harder to get their hands on Oxy.

00:13:06.000 So then they started shooting up heroin because the effects are sort of the same on the body except it's a street drug.

00:13:14.000 So in many ways it's extremely dangerous as well.

00:13:17.000 And so we actually went to a guy's house who was selling heroin.

00:13:21.000 Heroin, and he said, dude, I'm selling heroin, but what I really like to sell is pills.

00:13:26.000 Me and my friends all go down to Florida and get a bunch of these and we make much more money.

00:13:31.000 Our profit margin is much higher by selling pills than it is selling heroin.

00:13:35.000 So we much prefer to do that.

00:13:37.000 Wow.

00:13:38.000 That's hilarious.

00:13:41.000 2013, it's really shocking to me that that hasn't been addressed.

00:13:47.000 You're not seeing people talk about that in the mainstream media.

00:13:51.000 The president never fields questions on the prescription pill problem in this country and why is this happening?

00:13:58.000 Have you investigated what factors are involved here?

00:14:01.000 Are there dirty doctors? 0.99

00:14:03.000 Are they in cahoots with the pharmacy companies? 0.95

00:14:05.000 How is it possible that there's...

00:14:07.000 They did a thing on Montana...

00:14:10.000 Recently, in the Montana, the Billings Daily Gazette or something like that, one of the Billings Daily newspapers, where they said that out of one million people in Montana, 240,000 new prescriptions had been written.

00:14:25.000 Whoa.

00:14:27.000 Yeah.

00:14:27.000 I mean, it's great.

00:14:29.000 One of the things that definitely drew us to that story and to the follow-up stories that we've done subsequently is the fact that, you know, we spend billions of dollars every year fighting a war on drugs, trying to prevent drugs coming into this country.

00:14:41.000 But meanwhile, it's, you know, the drugs that are being made in this country that are causing the biggest, you know...

00:14:47.000 Problems in terms of life's loss and stuff like that.

00:14:49.000 The war on drugs is like playing cowboys and Indians and pretending you're doing genocide.

00:14:55.000 I mean, it's the worst job ever of controlling drugs that anybody's ever done ever. 1.00

00:15:00.000 When you stop and think about how much resources to results, it's so damn stupid. 0.99

00:15:05.000 It's like all you're doing is arresting pot dealers. 0.99

00:15:07.000 Why don't you just call it the war on people who probably won't shoot you and you can make arrests?

00:15:12.000 I can make them count.

00:15:14.000 How many people are they arresting that are involved in these pill clinics?

00:15:18.000 How many people are they arresting that are involved in pharmaceutical companies so obviously bribing local lawmakers to make these laws?

00:15:25.000 I mean, that is one of the creepiest state laws I've ever heard in my life.

00:15:29.000 But it's not surprising that it's coming from Florida.

00:15:33.000 If you wanted to have a crazy place where you would think that would go, you go, yeah.

00:15:37.000 I always say that Florida is like the South's Mexico.

00:15:40.000 We always look at Mexico like, oh, God, Mexico. 0.52

00:15:44.000 You think about all the crime that goes on there and all the craziness and the shenanigans.

00:15:48.000 We always look at Florida as like the South is that part of this country and Florida is like that to the South.

00:15:55.000 They're like, Jesus Christ, Florida.

00:15:56.000 Yeah, whenever we're stuck for a story, we're always like, what's going on in Florida?

00:16:00.000 If it wasn't for Florida, Nancy Grace would have nothing to talk about. 1.00

00:16:03.000 It's a crazy, crazy place.

00:16:06.000 Now, when you guys aired this and you put this, was there any resistance?

00:16:12.000 Did people give you a hard time about this?

00:16:14.000 No, actually, it's been incredible.

00:16:16.000 In the past, I mean, this aired three years ago already, and I still get, weekly, I get emails or Facebook messages or people reaching out because they've been somewhat, they've watched this, and somehow they've been affected by drugs, by prescription drugs.

00:16:29.000 You know, their son has died, their husband is addicted, and they reach out because this documentary has made an impact on them, and they want to let us know, which is fantastic.

00:16:40.000 You know, as a journalist, that's the best kind of gift you can get.

00:16:44.000 Yeah, that's beautiful.

00:16:45.000 No, you guys did an amazing job.

00:16:46.000 Like I said, you completely enlightened me on the subject.

00:16:49.000 I had literally no idea before I saw your show that this was even an issue.

00:16:54.000 I had thought about, you know, people need pills.

00:16:57.000 Like, they get hurt.

00:16:58.000 And then I remember reading the Rush Limbo thing. 1.00

00:17:01.000 And I'd be like, that crazy bastard. 1.00

00:17:03.000 Like, what the fuck is he doing? 1.00

00:17:04.000 He's taking like 99 a day or something nutty like that, wasn't he? 1.00

00:17:08.000 Do you know the number?

00:17:08.000 I don't know the number, no.

00:17:10.000 But I know some people, you know, that we've interviewed have...

00:17:13.000 You know, gotten quite tolerant to the pills and they could take a huge number, like a surprisingly huge number.

00:17:20.000 And he was going with his housekeeper.

00:17:22.000 He was having his housekeeper go around and collect them for him.

00:17:25.000 I think?

00:17:48.000 Like, somebody had to describe it to me in medical terms.

00:17:51.000 He did so much OxyContin that he blew out his hearing.

00:17:55.000 Wow.

00:17:56.000 I mean, I don't know if you remember, but Todd, the main guy in our documentary, The OxyContin Express, he was this kid.

00:18:01.000 He was 28 at the time, but he started doing Oxy's 10 years before.

00:18:05.000 He lost his brother to OxyContin.

00:18:07.000 He lost his wife to pills.

00:18:10.000 And you could see, I mean, and recently he died last year as well from drug overdose.

00:18:16.000 And you could tell just by talking to him that his mind was just not there.

00:18:21.000 And his mom was constantly telling us.

00:18:23.000 He couldn't remember things.

00:18:25.000 He was totally fried.

00:18:26.000 And it was all because of pills, the amount of pills he was doing.

00:18:29.000 And he was taking an insane amount.

00:18:31.000 I remember him telling us...

00:18:32.000 What was it?

00:18:34.000 Do you remember the grams?

00:18:35.000 10 to 15, 80 milligrams a day.

00:18:37.000 I remember we consulted a doctor afterwards and told him how much this guy was taking and he couldn't believe it.

00:18:42.000 He said that obviously if any of us decided to take that amount today, we would die in a second because we just don't have that tolerance.

00:18:49.000 Yeah, I had one of my best friends died from it.

00:18:54.000 That and actual heroin and a bunch of other things he was doing.

00:19:00.000 I've seen people caught in the grips of physical addiction and it's a terrifying, terrifying thing.

00:19:06.000 I've never experienced it myself.

00:19:08.000 The only thing that I've ever taken that's really addictive is coffee.

00:19:12.000 And I guess alcohol to certain people, although it's never been to me.

00:19:17.000 But I've always been terrified of the actual addictive properties of something becoming a part of your system.

00:19:23.000 Not an impulsive addiction like gambling, which I'm scared of that stuff too because I'm a very impulsive person.

00:19:29.000 But the terrifying notion of seeing it get into your bones, which is what these pills do.

00:19:35.000 And it's so just...

00:19:38.000 Evil.

00:19:39.000 It's almost like vampires in a pill form.

00:19:42.000 It just slowly sucks your life away and forces you to take it.

00:19:48.000 You know, I'm from Europe, from Portugal, and in Europe it's only prescribed to critically ill cancer patients.

00:19:53.000 So it was so surprising to me to see how easily they're prescribed here.

00:19:58.000 And yeah, it's because, well, it's because of money.

00:20:00.000 I mean, it has to be.

00:20:01.000 I got my nose fixed.

00:20:03.000 I had a deviated septum.

00:20:05.000 And my doctor gave me a prescription after it was over of two different types of painkillers.

00:20:10.000 And I told them, I go, it doesn't even hurt.

00:20:12.000 Because it really didn't hurt.

00:20:13.000 Like everybody had told me it was like incredibly painful and oh my god, you're barely going to be able to deal with it.

00:20:18.000 I got out of there and I was like, this is it?

00:20:20.000 I was like, I feel like I have a stuffed nose.

00:20:22.000 Like, it doesn't hurt at all.

00:20:23.000 And it was because my nose had been packed with these things.

00:20:25.000 But he was like, you need pain pills.

00:20:26.000 And I'm like, listen, man, I just got done telling you that I'm not even in pain.

00:20:30.000 What did he give you?

00:20:30.000 He gave me Vicodins and I think it was Percocets.

00:20:34.000 I didn't take it though, but I just threw the prescriptions away. 1.00

00:20:38.000 I'm scared of that shit. 1.00

00:20:39.000 I have a buddy who had a problem with drugs and then he had back surgery. 1.00

00:20:45.000 And then after he had back surgery, they put him on the pills to give him.

00:20:48.000 They're like, look, you need prescription medication.

00:20:50.000 They didn't even take into consideration the fact that he used to be a junkie.

00:20:54.000 And so immediately, he has a problem again.

00:20:56.000 He's all shady and weird now.

00:20:58.000 Yeah.

00:20:58.000 I mean, unfortunately, that's the way it starts with so many people, is that they're an injury.

00:21:02.000 And that's why you see, like, in a lot of places where the problem is, is that it's around places that have, like, a lot of workplace injuries, like Appalachia, where people work the mines and stuff like that.

00:21:12.000 Can you get, like, closer?

00:21:13.000 Yeah, sorry.

00:21:13.000 Sorry, man.

00:21:14.000 Yeah, so, I mean, that's a lot of times where you see these clusters of people who have become addicted.

00:21:21.000 Yeah, and so unfortunately, it's like that is where you're finding these lower-income people or middle-class people who work factory jobs and have to move things, manual labor-type jobs, and it just seems like they have no hope.

00:21:34.000 Once they get caught up in that, it's so hard to get out from under the grip of that monster, and they don't have...

00:21:39.000 They can't afford to take a month off and go to Malibu to some clinic where they're going to feed them green tea and rub their feet.

00:21:46.000 They're doomed.

00:21:48.000 You can get stuck and the amount of willpower required to pull yourself out of that mud is insane.

00:21:56.000 It is.

00:21:56.000 I mean, we spoke to so many people who were getting better and they really, I mean, they really, they had this conviction that they were, this was it.

00:22:05.000 They were talking to us as ex-drug addicts and they were never going to take pills again.

00:22:09.000 And I would say that 99% of those went back to drugs.

00:22:13.000 Did you know, this is a statistic that somebody put on my message board, a dude named Evil Homer, thanks Evil Homer, that last year five pharmaceutical companies were agreed to pay $5.5 billion to resolve the U.S. Department of Justice allegations of fraudulent marketing practices including the promotion of medications for uses that they were not approved by the Food and Drug Administration.

00:22:35.000 Insane.

00:22:36.000 I mean, if you go back and look at the numbers that they've been paying, like Pfizer in 2009 was fine, $2.3 billion.

00:22:44.000 There's so many of them.

00:22:45.000 There's GlaxoSmithKline, $3 billion.

00:22:49.000 And it's not that pharmaceutical drugs haven't...

00:22:51.000 We've done great things.

00:22:53.000 There's amazing applications for pharmaceutical drugs that have changed people's lives for the better.

00:22:58.000 It's just so unfortunate that it's the bottom line over morality, over humanity.

00:23:06.000 The bottom line being ones and zeros, collect as many as you can above humanity.

00:23:10.000 And it's not necessary.

00:23:12.000 It's like there's plenty of valid applications for drugs. 1.00

00:23:16.000 But if you want to control the entire world and you want to be like the king of the planet and have all the gold, the best way to do it is to be like, fuck people. 0.99

00:23:26.000 Just treat them as little vampire sucklings and take as much blood as you can while keeping them alive for as long as you can until they eventually run out of money or blood and then move on to the next one. 0.99

00:23:38.000 We spoke to a doctor, he was a rehab doctor, and he told us something really interesting.

00:23:42.000 I think it was the end of the 90s that the medical community got together and they decided that the best thing to do to treat pain was to really go at it aggressively and have the lowest possible tolerance to pain.

00:23:56.000 So if there was any chance that the patient would feel any sort of pain, just treat it aggressively by giving them a lot of drugs.

00:24:03.000 And he says there was a total shift In the end of the 90s, wasn't it Darren?

00:24:08.000 The end of the 90s I believe it was.

00:24:10.000 And that's when pain pills started being dispensed much more liberally.

00:24:15.000 And I think at the time they didn't really realize what this, you know, the addictive side of this and what this could do.

00:24:22.000 How is that possible though?

00:24:24.000 How's it possible that they could have not known?

00:24:26.000 I don't buy that.

00:24:28.000 Like, everyone's known that from the time I was a kid, I knew that people had problems with Quaaludes.

00:24:32.000 You would hear about that all the time.

00:24:34.000 I didn't even know what a Quaalude was.

00:24:36.000 You know, but I remember people always on Ludes.

00:24:38.000 The guy's got a problem with Ludes.

00:24:40.000 So of course they knew. 1.00

00:24:41.000 They're full of shit. 1.00

00:24:42.000 They must have bowed down to pressure from the pharmaceutical companies. 1.00

00:24:45.000 There must have been someone who cut a deal and said, listen, if you guys just prescribe a little more, do you know how much money we can all make?

00:24:51.000 And we'll give you a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

00:24:54.000 People say, well, that doesn't happen.

00:24:55.000 Well, here's one thing that definitely does happen.

00:24:57.000 My wife, her mom is a nurse, and her mom was working at this clinic, and she would tell us about the drug reps and all the things the drug reps would do for the company.

00:25:07.000 They'd take the whole company out to dinner, to a really nice restaurant.

00:25:11.000 Nurses are on very reasonable salaries.

00:25:13.000 They can't afford a really expensive restaurant or a really fine restaurant.

00:25:16.000 They would take everybody out, buy them all the drinks, order anything on the menu, lobster and steak and this and that.

00:25:21.000 And they did it on a regular basis.

00:25:23.000 They gave them trips and all sorts of other things.

00:25:25.000 And they made everybody really eager to prescribe these drugs.

00:25:30.000 Keep the drug reps around.

00:25:32.000 Keep the vacations coming in.

00:25:34.000 Keep the lobster dinners coming.

00:25:36.000 It's amazing.

00:25:37.000 It is insane.

00:25:37.000 It's amazing.

00:25:39.000 And it's amazing that it takes someone like you guys to expose this.

00:25:43.000 Where's CNN? Where are these so-called investigative journalists that are supposed to be looking out for us?

00:25:49.000 Where are the people that uncovered Watergate?

00:25:51.000 Where are the people that are really looking out for America? 0.98

00:25:53.000 What the fuck happened? 0.96

00:25:55.000 What happened to journalism in this country? 0.99

00:25:57.000 Well, I mean, like, for us, I mean, you know, great local reporting is what drew us to the story, so there are great reports, but for some reason, yeah, some...

00:26:05.000 Local guys, yes, people on the scene.

00:26:06.000 Yeah, people on the scene, and, like, that's, you know, where we got the lead to this story, and so, yeah, why it doesn't get better national attention is definitely a question that we should all be asking, yeah.

00:26:16.000 Well, it's like when you hear that the CIA gives gigantic news corporations like Fox and CNBC, it gives them talking points.

00:26:26.000 They follow these talking points.

00:26:28.000 And then you hear that these stories are going on and no one's reporting it.

00:26:32.000 Meanwhile, they'll pay attention to...

00:26:34.000 You know, Kim Kardashian's baby will be like the lead on CNN. Kim Kardashian! 0.78

00:26:42.000 And they make it seem like that. 1.00

00:26:45.000 You know, Florida is the fucking apocalypse. 1.00

00:26:48.000 There's spots of Florida that like... 1.00

00:26:51.000 If it was just a zombie factory and then people went in and came out as zombies, you'd be like, well, we have to stop this.

00:26:57.000 They're becoming zombies. 1.00

00:26:58.000 But they are fucking becoming zombies. 1.00

00:27:00.000 They're becoming functional zombies who can sort of walk around and live amongst you as long as they keep getting their zombie medicine. 1.00

00:27:06.000 Yeah.

00:27:06.000 We had that great sheriff in our doc say that, you know, talk about these doctors and how they were, what was it that he said?

00:27:14.000 They were drug dealers with degrees.

00:27:16.000 Yeah, they really are.

00:27:17.000 Which was such a great way of putting it.

00:27:18.000 And they are.

00:27:19.000 I mean, they know what they're doing.

00:27:20.000 The other thing you exposed when you showed these pain management centers is that some of them are actually connected to pharmacies.

00:27:29.000 First of all, folks, if you haven't seen the documentary, you must.

00:27:32.000 Where can they watch it?

00:27:33.000 Is it online?

00:27:33.000 It's online.

00:27:34.000 Where do they get it?

00:27:35.000 You can actually go to muck.tv, which is muck.tv.

00:27:39.000 M-U-C-K? M-U-C-K.tv.

00:27:41.000 It's our production company, and we have all our work there, and the Oxycontin Express is featured there as well.

00:27:46.000 It's beautiful.

00:27:46.000 It's a must say.

00:27:47.000 It's so enlightening.

00:27:48.000 But the pain management centers, you go there and you say, hey man, my back hurts.

00:27:53.000 And they go, well, you definitely need some Oxycontin.

00:27:56.000 And just go three feet down the hall and open up that next door and that's the prescription place. 0.98

00:28:01.000 And you go in there and the pharmacy hooks you up.

00:28:03.000 And it's like one-stop shopping for drugs and it's legal.

00:28:07.000 Cash only.

00:28:08.000 Cash only, yeah.

00:28:09.000 Cash only.

00:28:10.000 No insurance, not accepted.

00:28:11.000 Cash only.

00:28:12.000 Oh my.

00:28:12.000 And so that's what happened to us.

00:28:14.000 We went undercover.

00:28:15.000 We got an undercover camera and went into one of these.

00:28:18.000 And it was, I think, the first pain clinic we went into.

00:28:20.000 And I just asked the receptionist, so I have a back pain.

00:28:23.000 What can I get?

00:28:24.000 And she said, oh, they'll be able to prescribe you OxyContin.

00:28:27.000 And she listed the...

00:28:30.000 Long list of drugs.

00:28:31.000 And you just need to go get an MRI. And basically what this is, is that an MRI can show anything and you can point to something and say that that's what's hurting you.

00:28:40.000 And doctors just need to see something that they can then say, look, I looked at the MRI and it looked like she had That it was legitimate back pain, and that's all they need.

00:28:49.000 And so we went out the door to get this MRI, and we stopped and started talking to these guys that had come down from West Virginia and Kentucky, and they were telling us, you know, we traveled down there here because it's just so easy to get these drugs.

00:29:00.000 And we just say we have a back pain, but of course we don't have anything.

00:29:03.000 We just want to take a lot of these drugs back home with us.

00:29:06.000 When people are listening to this and saying, well, how easy?

00:29:10.000 Ready for this?

00:29:12.000 Doctors in Florida prescribe 10 times more oxycodone pills than every other state in the country combined.

00:29:25.000 Yeah, red flags all around.

00:29:27.000 But if you smoke pot in Florida, they'll put you in a cage, son.

00:29:30.000 They'll lock you up in a box, throw away the key. 1.00

00:29:33.000 What are you, a damn hippie? 1.00

00:29:34.000 Trying to ruin your life. 1.00

00:29:37.000 You've got problems, go to the pain management clinic.

00:29:40.000 Get a nice American cocktail of opiates.

00:29:46.000 Have you guys ever seen the documentary The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia?

00:29:52.000 Yes.

00:29:54.000 Beautiful and sad at the same time and hilarious.

00:29:57.000 Look, if you can't do anything about it and you just accept that going in, you have to.

00:30:01.000 You can't look at it and say, oh, that poor child growing up because then you'll get all sad.

00:30:05.000 But if you can treat it as a comedy and pretend they're not real and treat it as like if you're watching a Coen Brothers movie, a big part of that documentary is pills.

00:30:14.000 Yeah. 0.97

00:30:15.000 Huge part of what those people are and that culture of wild, hillbilly, white trash, crazy people is about pill addiction. 1.00

00:30:24.000 We spoke to some people in jail, some women in jail that were in jail because of pill trafficking from Florida, and they call themselves pillbillies. 0.98

00:30:32.000 That's what they say they are, pillbillies. 1.00

00:30:33.000 What a great name.

00:30:34.000 Well, that's where the hillbilly heroin comes from, Appalachia, yeah.

00:30:40.000 It's really confusing to have it all exposed in one piece like yours and just all of a sudden be like, what?

00:30:50.000 That's out there?

00:30:51.000 It was a real paradigm shifting moment for me and it was the thing that really got me paying attention to pills in general.

00:30:59.000 And then I started reading all these other bizarre stories.

00:31:02.000 I don't know if you ever heard about the man who was awarded the equivalent of $600,000 American dollars because he was on a Parkinson's drug called Requip.

00:31:15.000 This was by GlaxoSmithKline. 0.98

00:31:18.000 They had this Parkinson's drug and it turned him into a gambling and gay sex addict. 1.00

00:31:24.000 He was a straight man, and he took this pill, and it was Parkinson's drug, so apparently it has some psychoactive properties, does something to the way the mind works, and all he wanted to do was have gay sex and gamble. 0.98

00:31:38.000 That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard. 0.98

00:31:40.000 Brilliant.

00:31:41.000 I've never heard that.

00:31:42.000 So he got $600,000 because of this?

00:31:45.000 So it's not like just an accusation.

00:31:46.000 It's an accusation backed up by at least some science.

00:31:50.000 I mean, I don't know what they use to show that there's some sort of a chemical correlation between his activities and this drug, but they pulled the drug off the market.

00:31:59.000 The drug doesn't exist anymore. 0.90

00:32:00.000 So he got his $600,000 and stopped doing gay sex and gambling. 0.99

00:32:05.000 He got off the Parkinson's medication and became a straight man again without a gambling problem. 0.80

00:32:10.000 But with $600,000 in his pocket.

00:32:12.000 And a lot of bad memories. 1.00

00:32:13.000 A lot of horrible, horrible gay sex gambling memories. 1.00

00:32:17.000 Weirdest thing. 1.00

00:32:18.000 Yeah, it is weird.

00:32:19.000 But it's just, how did, I mean, there's so many drugs, like the late night things.

00:32:26.000 You know those commercials you see for those shady legal guys, 2 o'clock in the morning, like, did you take Fen-Fen in the 80s?

00:32:32.000 You know, call this number and we'll get you the money that you deserve.

00:32:36.000 Billions of dollars, yeah.

00:32:37.000 It's just shocking how easy it is for these things to get prescribed or for these things to get approved.

00:32:43.000 How much testing is involved?

00:32:45.000 Did you guys ever find out as far as how much testing is involved in making something legal?

00:32:51.000 So the interesting thing is that when all these pain pills started being produced, such as OxyContin, they were really easy to manipulate so that you can use them.

00:33:00.000 They have this time release device.

00:33:02.000 So that when you take a pill, they will have an effect on your body, but over time.

00:33:10.000 And that was really easy to manipulate so that you would take it and it would immediately have all the effect at once, which is what an addict ultimately wants.

00:33:19.000 So then they were heavily criticized for that.

00:33:22.000 So then they came up with A pill that wasn't so easy to manipulate.

00:33:27.000 But then, you know, that was easy.

00:33:29.000 They found a way around that too.

00:33:31.000 Addicts found a way around that too.

00:33:32.000 And you just go online and you search how to manipulate the new oxys and you put them.

00:33:38.000 There were ways.

00:33:39.000 I remember addicts telling us that you just put them in a microwave and do all this certain kind of things.

00:33:44.000 And I'm not going to say here because I'm not trying to get people to do it, but that there are ways to manipulate everything.

00:33:50.000 So...

00:33:51.000 Even when they try to play it safe, there's always a way around it for an addict.

00:33:55.000 Why are they smoking them?

00:33:58.000 It's the quickest way to get it into your body, to ingest it.

00:34:02.000 You get it all at once.

00:34:03.000 It's the same way as snorting it, crushing it, snorting it.

00:34:06.000 You just get it all at once.

00:34:07.000 Like Marinette was saying, it was initially made as a time-release formula so that it would sort of dull out over 8 hours or 12 hours.

00:34:15.000 But if you crush it and you snort it, you get...

00:34:17.000 All the active ingredient it wants.

00:34:18.000 All the oxycodone it wants.

00:34:20.000 Thank you, Garen.

00:34:21.000 You're much better at explaining that than I was.

00:34:24.000 I was having a hard time.

00:34:24.000 It seems like people like free-based cocaine, right?

00:34:27.000 Or smoke crack and stuff like that.

00:34:29.000 It's really kind of a brave new world type thing, isn't it?

00:34:33.000 It really is sort of a horrific version of the future thing, these numbers.

00:34:39.000 Especially the Florida number of ten times the number of prescriptions for oxycodone in the entire country combined.

00:34:47.000 I thought before I read it, I bet Florida is certainly number one, but probably only about 50% or something like that.

00:34:55.000 That was my silly little idea.

00:34:57.000 Ten times.

00:34:58.000 I think there's also a number that there are 100 doctors that most prescribe OxyContin in America.

00:35:05.000 99 of them are in Florida or something like that, which is also crazy.

00:35:09.000 Ooh, powerful Florida.

00:35:12.000 Yeah, back then.

00:35:14.000 It's changed somewhat now.

00:35:15.000 You know, I'm torn on these things because part of me is I'm a huge fan of personal freedom.

00:35:22.000 I'm a huge fan of civil liberties. 1.00

00:35:25.000 And I think if you want to be an idiot and ruin your life, you should be able to be an idiot and ruin your life. 1.00

00:35:29.000 And there's a lot of things that would ruin some people's life that I enjoy, like whiskey. 1.00

00:35:34.000 I like whiskey.

00:35:35.000 I like having a couple shots.

00:35:37.000 But I'm not a drug addict and I'm not an alcoholic, so I can have a couple shots of whiskey and stop.

00:35:42.000 And that's it.

00:35:43.000 I don't need them every day.

00:35:43.000 And, you know, I can do it once a year if I really wanted to.

00:35:47.000 But I'm also really keenly aware that I don't know what I'm talking about because I've never done an opiate.

00:35:54.000 Did you guys ever consider...

00:35:56.000 Trying it?

00:35:57.000 Yes.

00:35:57.000 No.

00:36:00.000 We like to immerse ourselves in stories, but not that far.

00:36:04.000 We went to Brazil, for example.

00:36:06.000 We did a story about the Cambo frog.

00:36:09.000 It's a drug that does all this sort of things to your bloodstream, and it's supposed to be really good for you, but it's crazy.

00:36:17.000 It's the skin of a frog that gets dried, and then you puncture a little hole in your body, and you put the skin there.

00:36:24.000 The skin of the frog, the secretion of the frog, and then it gives you sort of a burst of energy.

00:36:28.000 You feel your blood coming up and down all over your brain.

00:36:32.000 It seems like your brain is about to explode.

00:36:34.000 And it has a lot of pharmaceutical promise, this particular frog secretion.

00:36:40.000 What's the frog called?

00:36:40.000 The combo frog.

00:36:41.000 How do you spell that?

00:36:43.000 K-A-N-B-O. K-A-N-B-O. It's a beautiful frog.

00:36:48.000 It is actually beautiful.

00:36:49.000 It's a giant, really green frog.

00:36:50.000 It secretes this chemical.

00:36:55.000 Frogs are sort of slimy.

00:36:57.000 That slime they take and they dry it out.

00:36:59.000 And then they do a crude injection of burning you.

00:37:02.000 So the native tribes down there, they use it as sort of like a cleansing ritual.

00:37:08.000 But it's not hallucinogenic or anything like that.

00:37:12.000 But what attracts medicine to it is that it breaks the blood-brain barrier.

00:37:18.000 So it's like, I don't know what that exactly means, but it's very attractive to science.

00:37:23.000 But they haven't figured out how they're going to use it yet.

00:37:24.000 They think it's going to be good for heart disease, treat heart disease.

00:37:27.000 Wow.

00:37:28.000 And so that was, we definitely immersed ourselves in that one.

00:37:31.000 But it's not addictive, I don't think.

00:37:32.000 But it's not addictive, no. 0.93

00:37:33.000 It's another sign of how crazy human beings are.

00:37:35.000 This one spot in the world, like Brazil, the rainforest, where there's so much promise as far as new healing, new plants that can do all sorts of great things.

00:37:46.000 And what are they doing?

00:37:47.000 Just chopping it down.

00:37:49.000 Just hacking it down at a record pace.

00:37:53.000 It's insane.

00:37:54.000 We've done several stories about that and it's just insane.

00:37:56.000 It's so sad every time we go back.

00:37:58.000 There's so many different wonder cures have been found in the rainforest.

00:38:02.000 They're always looking for the rainforest to come up with new medications for all sorts of things.

00:38:07.000 And there's the good side of the pharmaceutical companies.

00:38:10.000 The fact that pharmaceutical companies are creating things that are helping keep your grandpa around for longer and keep people healthy.

00:38:16.000 It's such a double-edged sword.

00:38:19.000 And like I said, for me, I'm so torn because I don't think that I would want to be in a neighborhood where they're selling heroin, but I don't think that anybody should be able to tell anybody else they can't buy heroin.

00:38:32.000 But then you get into that area of the addictive properties of it, and that's where it gets sketchy.

00:38:38.000 That's where it gets like, well, if you're going to do anything as a community to try to stop something like that, Boy, there's not a lot of ways you can convince people to not do things.

00:38:49.000 It's very difficult.

00:38:51.000 And it gets real weird when you're trying to convince someone to not do something that has a really good chance of ruining your life.

00:38:59.000 Yeah, I know you talk a lot about drugs, and I don't know if you've looked into the Portuguese experience.

00:39:03.000 I'm from Portugal, and Portugal is basically one of the biggest experiments in drug policy in the world, and it's been going on for 10 years, and it's actually quite a success rate.

00:39:12.000 And what they did is they did decriminalize drugs.

00:39:15.000 They didn't legalize them, they decriminalized them, meaning that if you're caught with, I think it's one gram of heroin, two grams of cocaine, or 25 grams of marijuana, if it's anything, if it's that or less, You don't go to jail as you do in other countries and what they do is they send you to a drug rehab commission and to a group of doctors that know what they're talking about that want to find out if this is the first time you're trying drugs and why are you doing them and they try to address the problem as a disease and not as a crime

00:39:45.000 and it's had actually great success rate and you know much less people are going to rehab centers much less people are dying so it's definitely being looked at as a way to go in terms of drug policy.

00:39:56.000 Well, that's a beautiful idea also in terms of human nature because it's human nature to not want to be controlled.

00:40:03.000 There's many, many examples.

00:40:06.000 And if you have children, you know that one of the best ways to get a kid to want to do something is to tell them they can't do it.

00:40:11.000 It's a natural human tendency to try to resist.

00:40:14.000 And when you tell them they can do whatever they want and you'll be there to help them, you're honestly better off.

00:40:21.000 We would like to think that the established laws that we have in this country are set up to protect people, but they're clearly not.

00:40:27.000 When you're dealing with these numbers, especially outside of Florida, like I told you about Billings, Montana newspaper talking about 240,000 different prescriptions for that stuff in Montana alone.

00:40:38.000 It's obviously not the case.

00:40:40.000 It's not that anybody is trying to look out for anybody.

00:40:44.000 Mm-hmm.

00:41:03.000 We're good to go.

00:41:18.000 To helping people and that's what their whole career was supposed to be, improving the health of people, keeping people alive.

00:41:25.000 And then somewhere along the line, in the whole storm of student loans and getting sued for malpractice and all this different shit, somewhere along the line, a bunch of them just crack and they just go, let's just make some money.

00:41:39.000 We spoke to some addicts in Florida whose doctor, the doctor that prescribed them the drugs, and this was a kid, actually a boy, a man, a 25-year-old kid, was a gynecologist. 0.52

00:41:50.000 So he was going to a gynecologist to get his meds.

00:41:52.000 Whoa! 0.71

00:41:54.000 Well, if anybody would know.

00:41:57.000 Wow, that's so crazy.

00:42:00.000 This story is also close to me because besides my friend who died, I had another family member that had nothing wrong with him. 0.78

00:42:08.000 He was a completely normal, great guy, and then got injured in a work accident and became the biggest fuck-up I've ever met in my life.

00:42:17.000 And it's hard for me to even imagine that this is the same guy I knew from high school.

00:42:21.000 He was...

00:42:23.000 At one point in time, he was a hard worker.

00:42:24.000 He was a great kid.

00:42:26.000 He was always friendly. 0.99

00:42:27.000 And then he just became a complete loser, a compulsive liar, anything he could do to get bills. 0.97

00:42:33.000 And so I've seen the firsthand effects of someone who didn't have an issue. 0.98

00:42:38.000 Like he didn't have any physical issues.

00:42:40.000 He also didn't have any family history of people being addicted to anything.

00:42:46.000 So it was just a monster got into his system.

00:42:49.000 Yeah.

00:42:49.000 I understand what you say, that a person should be able to get whatever they want if they're adults and they can make up their own minds, but they should also be able to know what they're getting.

00:42:56.000 That's many times a problem.

00:42:58.000 Again, the injury is a big problem.

00:43:00.000 The big reason why people get into prescription drugs is because they're prescribed this by their doctor and there aren't enough warnings as to how addictive this stuff can be.

00:43:11.000 We spoke to one kid who was also a star athlete in college, and he was featured in the second documentary we did about this issue.

00:43:18.000 And he was in the hospital for five days, and he left the hospital he was already addicted to pills and never left, and now he's doing heroin.

00:43:27.000 Wow.

00:43:28.000 It's so crazy.

00:43:29.000 So this is, you know, you know a story, I know a story, so just imagine how many stories there are out there, just people that get injured and get addicted.

00:43:36.000 And how do we stop this?

00:43:38.000 Is there a way?

00:43:39.000 Is it too far into the cultural system?

00:43:42.000 I mean, is it a part of us now?

00:43:44.000 I don't think so.

00:43:45.000 I think a lot more needs to be done.

00:43:47.000 And there are fantastic people out there, a lot of moms, actually mothers who've lost kids who are leading the way and trying to raise awareness and pass legislation.

00:43:56.000 I definitely think that more needs to be done.

00:43:59.000 Doctors need to prescribe this, know what they're prescribing, and people need to know more about what they're being prescribed and the addictiveness of it.

00:44:11.000 Wow.

00:44:12.000 To me, it's one of the most disturbing aspects of our culture.

00:44:16.000 It's one of the most disturbing.

00:44:18.000 It's like second only to war.

00:44:20.000 The idea that there's these massive corporations that are profiting off of these people becoming zombies.

00:44:25.000 It's really, really crazy.

00:44:28.000 So I want to thank you very much for doing that documentary.

00:44:31.000 Because you guys really, you knocked it out of the park and you changed the way I look at it.

00:44:35.000 Thank you.

00:44:37.000 It's called Inside Secret America.

00:44:39.000 It is.

00:44:39.000 It's on Nat Geo.

00:44:40.000 And has it aired yet?

00:44:42.000 Does it start?

00:44:42.000 It starts Wednesday night.

00:44:44.000 This Wednesday?

00:44:45.000 This Wednesday night, 10 p.m.

00:44:46.000 Wednesday at 10 p.m.

00:44:46.000 is the first episode.

00:44:48.000 Oh, awesome.

00:44:49.000 And what is the show?

00:44:50.000 What are you guys doing?

00:44:51.000 The first one is drugs.

00:44:52.000 Oh, hilarious.

00:44:53.000 We just can't get away from them.

00:44:55.000 It's actually synthetic drugs.

00:44:57.000 So we look into sort of bath salts and spice and K2 and all that stuff.

00:45:03.000 And the show is basically Darren, who's my producing partner and my husband and myself, we go around America exploring and infiltrating these subcultures, some of the U.S.'s most controversial subcultures and everything from sex trafficking to unregulated and illegal guns to the first episode,

00:45:23.000 which is about synthetic drugs.

00:45:25.000 Wow.

00:45:26.000 Did you guys follow the John McAfee case?

00:45:29.000 Yeah.

00:45:29.000 I mean, a little bit.

00:45:31.000 I saw the Vice guys were down there.

00:45:33.000 Did you follow the drug aspect of it?

00:45:35.000 I've heard about it, but I'm not too up to speed on what was going on.

00:45:39.000 But I heard he was making his own stuff, right?

00:45:43.000 I have no idea.

00:45:43.000 Well...

00:45:44.000 In the entrance of all fairness, he says that it was all troll and then he was just joking about the drug part.

00:45:52.000 But the reality is he had a laboratory set up in his backyard in Belize, like a real legit laboratory.

00:46:01.000 And inside that laboratory...

00:46:03.000 I don't know what he was actually doing, but he made a post under a pseudonym on this drug forum describing his freebasing of basalts.

00:46:14.000 He did some work with...

00:46:15.000 I don't know what the technical aspects of his transformation of the basalts into something else, but he had claimed that it made you this incredibly hypersexual person, and he was trying to market it as like a...

00:46:31.000 He was trying to come up with a drug that would turn women into like nymphomaniacs, essentially.

00:46:38.000 The female Viagra. 1.00

00:46:39.000 Yeah, sort of, but Viagra doesn't make you...

00:46:42.000 Like on steroids, basically.

00:46:44.000 Yeah, but you know what I mean?

00:46:45.000 Like Viagra is an aid to men achieving an erection, but it doesn't necessarily make you like a horny person. 0.61

00:46:51.000 Right.

00:46:51.000 Whereas this...

00:46:52.000 It was a mental thing.

00:46:54.000 It would change you, make you very, very, very aroused. 0.99

00:46:57.000 He described it on his post as clawing your genitals and freaking out and masturbating all day. 0.98

00:47:06.000 He had these really detailed depictions of the chemical transformation of these drugs. 0.99

00:47:12.000 And clearly had this massive laboratory, not massive, but really high-end, high-tech laboratory, set up in his crazy fucking jungle house, and this guy was cooking bath salts back there. 0.82

00:47:24.000 I mean, the doctors we spoke to definitely said that hypersexuality is one of the sort of symptoms, not symptoms? 0.91

00:47:30.000 Side effects?

00:47:31.000 Yeah, side effects.

00:47:32.000 Benefits?

00:47:32.000 Benefits, I don't know, however you want to describe it, of bath salts.

00:47:36.000 Yeah, depending on how you slice it.

00:47:37.000 I wonder who he was targeting for these drugs.

00:47:40.000 I know they're for women, but would men buy these drugs to give to their wives and girlfriends?

00:47:44.000 Well, what he was doing, he had like a bunch of young girls from this, you know, is Belize a third world country?

00:47:51.000 I guess, sort of, whatever it is.

00:47:52.000 Developing.

00:47:53.000 Developing.

00:47:54.000 It's the PC way.

00:47:54.000 So he had these, you know, young jungle girls, like 20 years old or however they were, like I think his girlfriend was 20, and he was like, you know, had all these pictures of these different girls and he was getting hooked up on bath salts.

00:48:06.000 Crazy dude!

00:48:07.000 We had him on the podcast when he was actually on the run. 0.94

00:48:10.000 No way.

00:48:11.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:12.000 After he was being charged with murder, he fled the country and he was calling us, I think he was calling us from Mexico.

00:48:19.000 On one of those little Kmart cell phones that you buy.

00:48:22.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:48:23.000 And so he called into the podcast and spoke to us for like an hour.

00:48:27.000 It was fascinating.

00:48:28.000 We asked him about the drugs.

00:48:29.000 What did he say?

00:48:30.000 You can't believe everything that you read.

00:48:33.000 I am a notorious prankster.

00:48:36.000 I think that was his...

00:48:38.000 It's just funnin'.

00:48:40.000 I know that's how I prank. 0.97

00:48:41.000 When I prank, I set up a lab and I fucking do it hardcore, man. 0.96

00:48:46.000 I make you really believe that I'm cooking bath salts. 0.96

00:48:49.000 Meanwhile, I'm just back there with some glitter and some glue.

00:48:53.000 I mean, he made these really high-resolution photographs of his work and detailed the whole process.

00:48:58.000 Oh, man. 0.94

00:48:59.000 So if he was a troll, man, he's a really well-thought-out troll.

00:49:03.000 He's a character and a half. 0.91

00:49:05.000 But the bath salts aspects were one of the parts of the whole story where they just sort of painted him like this maniac.

00:49:12.000 Some of the names of these bath salts are just insane.

00:49:15.000 We were able to actually acquire some just at smoke shops here in Southern California.

00:49:21.000 One was called Scooby-Doo.

00:49:23.000 The other one was called Sexy Zombie.

00:49:25.000 And we went into a smoke shop and bought this stuff.

00:49:28.000 And then we were actually, so our first episode, we actually filmed some, we featured some, a marine who's addicted to, or who was at the time addicted to bath salts.

00:49:37.000 We should explain to people that these are not actually bath salts.

00:49:40.000 No, no.

00:49:40.000 These are very dangerous drugs, yes.

00:49:44.000 That stay off the internet.

00:49:45.000 The term bath salts is a term given to these synthetic drugs that escape regulation because they're not technically legal or illegal.

00:49:55.000 Illegal.

00:49:56.000 Illegal.

00:49:56.000 Yeah, they're not defined.

00:49:58.000 Yeah, undefined.

00:49:59.000 Well, they're defined compounds that haven't been...

00:50:02.000 And they sell them as bath salts and says, not for human consumption.

00:50:05.000 Ornk, ornk.

00:50:06.000 Right.

00:50:06.000 Exactly.

00:50:07.000 So they're made in labs, but they have the same sort of effects on your body as cocaine or meth.

00:50:13.000 But it's made in labs, so there's nothing natural about it.

00:50:15.000 It's entirely made with chemicals, most of which come from China and India.

00:50:19.000 And you can order them, and then you have a garage, and there are these kids.

00:50:23.000 This is how it started off, with these kids putting all these chemicals together.

00:50:26.000 You have it all on the internet, step by step, on how to make it pretty easy.

00:50:29.000 Thank you.

00:50:37.000 Thank you.

00:50:54.000 As soon as the government comes out and prohibits one compound, they immediately, you know, China and India have already all these other chemicals ready to ship.

00:51:04.000 So they just need to change a little compound, and it's a new drug, and it's legal all of a sudden.

00:51:09.000 So that's why it's so hard to get.

00:51:11.000 It's amazing that that sort of popped up out of nowhere.

00:51:14.000 It's like all of a sudden someone figured out, oh, we could do this.

00:51:17.000 Yeah.

00:51:17.000 Well, I think they were sitting around in chemistry labs at universities.

00:51:22.000 They were doing legitimate research on them, and then this sort of monkey got out of the cage, and next thing you know.

00:51:28.000 It's running rampant.

00:51:30.000 28 Days Later style.

00:51:31.000 Exactly.

00:51:32.000 So it was actually really interesting.

00:51:33.000 It was a professor at a university in...

00:51:36.000 Do you remember what the name of the university was?

00:51:38.000 I don't remember.

00:51:38.000 Michigan, maybe?

00:51:39.000 I can't remember.

00:51:40.000 But it was a professor in the 70s who was doing this research.

00:51:42.000 He wanted to know what kind of effects drugs have on a person's brain.

00:51:46.000 So he was doing all this research and came out with all these compounds.

00:51:49.000 And all this came out and suddenly it was, you know, the...

00:51:55.000 The instructions and the manual on how to create these crazy drugs that are now everywhere around us and legal.

00:52:06.000 Quasi-legal, yeah.

00:52:07.000 But, you know, John McAfee?

00:52:11.000 McAfee, yeah.

00:52:12.000 I never know how to say that.

00:52:12.000 It always pops up on your computer and you're like, McAfee?

00:52:15.000 He's the one that created that, right?

00:52:17.000 No, he didn't create bath salts.

00:52:18.000 No, he created McAfee.

00:52:20.000 Yes, yes, yes.

00:52:21.000 Antiviral software.

00:52:22.000 So he's a legitimately smart guy.

00:52:24.000 Well, he was at one point in time.

00:52:26.000 Yeah, it might be a little crazy, but most of these bath salts and synthetic marijuana are being put together by some yahoos in their garage. 1.00

00:52:34.000 So that's where the problem comes in, is that you don't know what you're getting, and you don't know if they're mixing it correctly.

00:52:39.000 You get these things called hot spots, where one portion of the batch will have 30 times the amount of the product, compared to another part that might have just been missed.

00:52:49.000 So you never know what you're getting, and obviously when you have a 19, 20-year-old kid who's just looking to make some money mixing it together, he's not probably doing the best science.

00:53:00.000 Yeah, and you're also, there's a bunch of different effects of these things, right?

00:53:04.000 It's not uniform.

00:53:05.000 Yeah, we spoke about the over-sexualization, aggressiveness.

00:53:11.000 People believe that they have superhuman force.

00:53:14.000 There's all these videos, you can search it on YouTube too, of people going out and believing they're supermen and throwing themselves off cliffs.

00:53:20.000 We spoke to a doctor who had treated a patient who was a lawyer.

00:53:23.000 He was studying for the bar exam and took some of this stuff and decided that his own hands were trying to attack him.

00:53:30.000 He thought his hands were trying to attack him.

00:53:32.000 So he put both his hands on a stove top and burnt his arms.

00:53:36.000 And he couldn't feel the pain.

00:53:38.000 So it was just because the neighbor smelt the burning of his arms that they came...

00:53:43.000 So he was cooking his own arms, just sitting there.

00:53:45.000 He was cooking his own arms.

00:53:48.000 Ouch.

00:53:49.000 So some of these drugs are related to other drugs where they like take it and they change a molecule or twist something around.

00:53:58.000 But it's not uniform.

00:54:00.000 So it's not like they're all derivatives of this.

00:54:04.000 They vary like wildly.

00:54:06.000 So you buy a batch of sexy zombie today and you snort it or smoke it and it does something you really like.

00:54:14.000 It's a really great high.

00:54:15.000 It wasn't too bad.

00:54:17.000 Next day there's not much of a hangover.

00:54:19.000 So the next day you decide you want to go to the smoke shop and buy some more of this stuff.

00:54:22.000 But that batch can have the same name, possibly come from the same place, but it's entirely different.

00:54:27.000 You never know.

00:54:28.000 Every single batch is different.

00:54:29.000 So suddenly you might be taken to the hospital or you might be out trying to attack somebody.

00:54:34.000 And there's also that story in Florida, that guy that ate that guy's face.

00:54:37.000 Yeah, that's why they put bath salts on the map, that story.

00:54:40.000 Yeah.

00:54:40.000 Well, what's interesting is that they said, well, it's been refuted because he didn't test positive for bath salts.

00:54:46.000 But then I read, there is no test for bath salts.

00:54:49.000 He didn't test positive for bath salts because it doesn't exist.

00:54:52.000 First of all, they don't know what to look for because it could be any and number one of these different substances.

00:54:57.000 And second of all, they're not looking.

00:54:58.000 Exactly.

00:54:59.000 And that's why they're so popular that we heard, that they're so popular in places where drug testing is mandatory, such as military or rehab communities or even bullfighting.

00:55:10.000 We were in Arizona and interviewed people from the bullfighting community, and this is really popular there because it's so hard to test these drugs.

00:55:16.000 So they can just take them and know that nobody's going to ever find out.

00:55:20.000 So they take these bath salts and then hop on a bull.

00:55:23.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:55:24.000 Holy shit. 1.00

00:55:25.000 Yeah, we spoke to a kid who did that. 1.00

00:55:26.000 You want to talk about a reckless person.

00:55:29.000 The guy who takes bath salts and gets in a bull.

00:55:31.000 Wow.

00:55:32.000 So it's very possible, apparently, that that guy who ate that guy's face was on bath salts.

00:55:37.000 It is possible.

00:55:38.000 And that sounds right, right?

00:55:40.000 Doesn't it?

00:55:41.000 It's, I guess, yeah, it's consistent with behavior.

00:55:45.000 That's a very nice way, scientific way of saying it.

00:55:48.000 Yeah, I mean, we can't, I have no idea if the guy was on bath salts.

00:55:52.000 It would definitely, you know, I think the cops were like, this is the craziest thing we've ever seen.

00:55:55.000 And it's just consistent with behavior that we've seen of other people that have been on bath salts.

00:56:00.000 That's why they jumped to the conclusion that maybe it was bath salts.

00:56:03.000 And even after the autopsy or whatever they did, you know, they, uh, How long before the pharmaceutical companies realize how much money is in bath salts and just say, listen, what we need to do is set up some labs in Mexico or Peru or whatever,

00:56:21.000 churn out our own bath salts, launch them over the border with catapults, have people pick them up, sit in trucks.

00:56:28.000 Well, there's an article that came out today actually about how the DEA had just busted and is really concerned about synthetic drugs because it is becoming quite a big problem here in the United States and how they're finding out that actually it is...

00:56:39.000 they said that it was...

00:56:41.000 They're finding some connections of how it's funding terrorism in the Middle East.

00:56:45.000 It's funny how everything ends up funding terrorism in the Middle East. 0.79

00:56:48.000 It just means we need to spend more money on tanks.

00:56:50.000 That's the tank companies.

00:56:53.000 You know, but there are some really sad stories that we, you know, we interview the father of a kid who took bath salts for the first time because a friend gave it to him.

00:57:00.000 And the kid went totally wild, came into his parents' house and slit his throat in front of his parents and died five days later.

00:57:12.000 So, yeah, it's definitely something, too.

00:57:14.000 Well, when you have children, that's when drugs really start worrying you.

00:57:17.000 Drugs never worried me when I was single, because I was like, you know, I'm not doing anything stupid.

00:57:21.000 I'm not worried about it.

00:57:22.000 I would hear stories about people dying, and it would make me sad, but it didn't hit home.

00:57:27.000 When you start having children, you think about all the dumb things that you did growing up, and somehow or another dodged all those bullets.

00:57:33.000 And got to be an adult. 0.79

00:57:34.000 And you think about these little ones growing up in this new world where it's not so easy.

00:57:39.000 Because when I was a kid, there was no such thing as OxyContin.

00:57:43.000 There was no such thing as pain management centers.

00:57:44.000 There was no such thing as 240,000 people in a year getting a prescription for Oxy's in Montana.

00:57:50.000 There was none of those things.

00:57:52.000 So those hurdles, even though it was still lots of scary stuff, that wasn't there.

00:57:58.000 But I got really fortunate that I saw my friends.

00:58:00.000 When I was a kid, my friend's cousin was a Coke dealer.

00:58:04.000 I got to watch him rot away.

00:58:05.000 I got to watch his life fall apart over the course of a year.

00:58:08.000 A guy lost all this weight, became creepy, was hiding all the time, just became like a vampire. 0.67

00:58:14.000 He got bitten by a vampire and became this sick person.

00:58:17.000 It was really weird.

00:58:18.000 He was a dealer?

00:58:19.000 Yes, he was a dealer and an addict himself.

00:58:21.000 He was doing it himself.

00:58:22.000 And in watching that, watching him go from a regular guy to becoming this guy, It was a huge, you know, lesson to be learned.

00:58:30.000 And I was in Vegas this weekend, and I was talking to this guy who's the driver, and I said, you know, how do you like living in Vegas?

00:58:38.000 Is it a problem?

00:58:39.000 He goes, well, he goes, you know, the thing is, it's the drugs, man.

00:58:42.000 You've got to avoid the drugs.

00:58:43.000 If you can avoid the drugs, it's a good place to live.

00:58:45.000 Like, it's like most people just avoid the strip.

00:58:48.000 But fortunately for me, my sister was hooked on drugs, and this other person was hooked on drugs.

00:58:53.000 He's telling me all the people he knew that are hooked on drugs, you know, that had...

00:58:56.000 He learned from them to not do it.

00:58:59.000 It's almost like how we need to learn. 0.99

00:59:01.000 We need to learn by watching other people fuck up. 0.99

00:59:03.000 You're not going to believe the government. 0.99

00:59:05.000 If the government comes out and tells you to avoid it, you're like, whatever. 1.00

00:59:10.000 What the fuck do you crooks know? 0.99

00:59:14.000 What can be done besides you talking or you doing a show like that? 1.00

00:59:20.000 Is there anybody that you talked to that had some really concrete plans on how this could be halted?

00:59:25.000 There's some great organizations out there, support group organizations.

00:59:30.000 You know, again, a lot of them are being led by women, by mothers, which I think is phenomenal.

00:59:35.000 And they're really trying to raise awareness and pass legislation to make these bills harder to get and to stop these, you know, crazy doctors from overprescribing.

00:59:45.000 But it's, you know, there is a way.

00:59:49.000 And I do love the...

00:59:52.000 Whenever I speak to some of these mothers, it's really refreshing to see these women who are so strong and wanting to fight for this.

01:00:01.000 Yeah, well, that is a nice thing, but it just sucks that they have to fight for that.

01:00:05.000 Jamie, there's something going on where it's buffering every few minutes.

01:00:08.000 People are complaining a lot.

01:00:10.000 Ustream side?

01:00:11.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:00:12.000 We've got 100 megabytes a second upload, ladies and gentlemen, now, so it's all Ustream, those dirty bitches. 1.00

01:00:17.000 Tell me what it figured out. 0.99

01:00:18.000 Complain to Ustream.

01:00:19.000 We can't help you.

01:00:22.000 The show, you're going after a lot of different things.

01:00:26.000 It's not just drugs.

01:00:28.000 When you do this kind of investigative journalism and you ruffle feathers and sort of make noise, do you guys experience any blowback from that?

01:00:38.000 Occasionally.

01:00:39.000 But, you know, like this series, as we did in the Oshkahn piece that we started with, you know, we did a lot of undercover filming.

01:00:46.000 And, you know, our sort of approach to that is that we're not looking to get any individual in trouble.

01:00:52.000 We're not trying to do any gotcha kind of journalism and bust any individual.

01:00:55.000 We're just trying to shed light on an issue.

01:00:57.000 And so I think...

01:00:58.000 You know, if we were targeting a specific individual, you know, there might be a little bit of blowback, whether rightly or wrong, whether we were doing it that way.

01:01:08.000 But I think, you know, the fact that we're just trying to shed light on an issue, and the only way that we can do that is with undercover cameras, you sort of, you know, mute the blowback a little bit because it's just enlightening for most people to see what goes on when people don't know the camera's rolling, you know?

01:01:22.000 Yeah, that's probably a very good point.

01:01:24.000 Yeah, I didn't think of that.

01:01:25.000 That's probably what's saving you guys.

01:01:31.000 Well, Mike Wallace from 60 Minutes pioneered the undercover camera.

01:01:35.000 Then they started doing away with it.

01:01:37.000 And Mike Wallace said, you know, the idea was to draw light, but we started drawing heat.

01:01:42.000 And so once it just becomes a bit of drawing heat and not shedding enough light, then it's time to sort of stop doing it.

01:01:50.000 Yeah.

01:01:51.000 Yeah, so I think that will be our time to stop as well.

01:01:54.000 But I do get nervous every time.

01:01:56.000 I just re-watched for the 10th time the first episode of this series that is airing on Wednesday night at 10pm.

01:02:04.000 And it made me really nervous just to watch some of the stuff because we did go undercover and filmed a lot of things, filmed a lot of people selling drugs.

01:02:12.000 We filmed people taking drugs and a lot of it was filmed undercover and it makes me nervous for sure.

01:02:18.000 But it was an issue that we thought was an important issue, not enough people know about it.

01:02:23.000 What other subjects did you guys cover?

01:02:25.000 Yes.

01:02:26.000 The second one is about guns.

01:02:29.000 And we go to Arizona.

01:02:32.000 We spent a lot of time in Arizona.

01:02:34.000 And we basically transformed ourselves into the bad guys, into criminals trying to get guns, just to see how easy it would be for a criminal to get their hands on guns in Arizona.

01:02:45.000 And in the space of about two, three days...

01:02:48.000 We're good to go.

01:03:10.000 We went online, backpage.com, looked for AK-47, and within 45 minutes, we had bought an AK-47 out of this guy's car.

01:03:19.000 Oh my god!

01:03:20.000 And then he wanted to sell us two more AR-15s that he had in his car as well.

01:03:23.000 Oh my god!

01:03:24.000 We were on a budget, so we can...

01:03:26.000 So this person, when you air the show, do you block their face out?

01:03:29.000 You block their faces out, yes, because who knows why they're doing this.

01:03:32.000 In that case, they actually look like drug addicts, so it was really important for us to not, again, not going after anyone personally.

01:03:38.000 Yeah, right.

01:03:39.000 Well, that's beautiful of you.

01:03:40.000 And congratulations on handling it that way, because that's, I think, the right way to do it.

01:03:45.000 And it's also, obviously, this person is a part of a much greater issue.

01:03:49.000 And to turn it on, to make it about one person, it's like, it's the tendency to do in this country, like to victimize or to criminalize this one person or whatever, you know, focus on this one person when it's really what's going on is the issue, right?

01:04:04.000 The issue of being able to buy guns that easy.

01:04:06.000 Do you know what's so interesting, though, is that right after we bought that AK-47, I think it was the first assault rifle that we bought in Arizona, and we'd been nervous whether we'd invested money to go there, are we going to be able to buy these guns?

01:04:20.000 So to sort of celebrate our purchase, we went into the bar right next to Taco Bell, and we ordered three beers, myself, Darren, and the other producer, Alex, and because Alex didn't have his ID with him, they didn't sell him a beer.

01:04:32.000 Meanwhile, we just bought an AK-47 outside.

01:04:34.000 And no one asks for our ID or even our names.

01:04:38.000 That's funny.

01:04:39.000 It keeps cutting out, Jamie.

01:04:40.000 Maybe we should switch it over to a lower stream or something like that.

01:04:43.000 Try that.

01:04:44.000 Try that.

01:04:44.000 See if that helps.

01:04:45.000 We'll fix it for you, folks.

01:04:48.000 The gun issue is really a creepy one in this country.

01:04:52.000 And it's also, in my opinion, connected to the pharmaceutical issue.

01:04:56.000 And the reason being is that there's this massive connection between the things that people are afraid of I think the latest statistic was more than 90% of all school shooters Uh,

01:05:21.000 either are on antidepressants when they do it or are recovering from antidepressants when they do it.

01:05:27.000 And that's one of those things that makes you wonder, like, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

01:05:33.000 You know?

01:05:34.000 Yeah.

01:05:35.000 No, definitely.

01:05:36.000 I mean, like, I think when you talk about those mass shootings, and actually we shot this on the last day of, um...

01:05:42.000 Of shooting was the Aurora shooting, unless they were filming.

01:05:46.000 Oh, wow.

01:05:48.000 The guns piece was the Aurora shooting.

01:05:50.000 That's incredible.

01:05:51.000 Yeah.

01:05:51.000 And then, you know, so it's been in the can for a while, this piece.

01:05:53.000 And then, you know, when Newtown happened, you know, there was some question of whether we should air the show, the guns episode early.

01:06:01.000 But we decided, you know, there was enough debate going on at that point to just to hold it off.

01:06:06.000 Yeah.

01:06:07.000 But he used the Newtown Sandy Hook shooting.

01:06:13.000 He used a Bushmaster, which we also saw for sale at gun shows.

01:06:17.000 What is that?

01:06:18.000 A lot of them.

01:06:20.000 I thought the Sandy Hook guy used pistols.

01:06:23.000 I think the Sandy Hook guy used a Bushmaster.

01:06:27.000 I was looking at it today.

01:06:28.000 Look it up.

01:06:29.000 I'm pretty sure the new findings of the Sandy Hook shooting...

01:06:36.000 Was that he actually didn't use an assault weapon.

01:06:39.000 Pistols.

01:06:40.000 Hold on.

01:06:42.000 Let me see.

01:06:42.000 We should know.

01:06:44.000 NBC admitted no assault rifle used in Newtown shooting.

01:06:55.000 Four handguns.

01:06:56.000 Apparently the only handguns were taken into the school.

01:07:01.000 Yeah.

01:07:03.000 I think, yeah, it had been said that he had an AR-15 assault rifle that he had taken into the school, and it was in the car that he drove there.

01:07:15.000 But they've been told by several officials that he had left it in the car, and then he came in and just shot everyone with pistols.

01:07:22.000 I remember when the reports came out hearing about the Bushmaster, that he had a Bushmaster, and I remember clearly having seen it in the gun shows, and we almost bought one.

01:07:32.000 I mean, this is just sort of a technicality here, but what kind of gun he used.

01:07:38.000 He obviously shot a bunch of people.

01:07:40.000 That's what's important, is that someone can get this tool.

01:07:43.000 And really, that's what it is.

01:07:45.000 It's an inanimate tool.

01:07:46.000 And a person can get it and go do these things.

01:07:50.000 And these things happen very rarely.

01:07:53.000 And when they happen, there's this massive reaction.

01:07:57.000 And the reaction is almost always to try to take guns away.

01:08:01.000 And that's what gets the real nutters...

01:08:11.000 It's almost like it's one of the strangest debates in our culture.

01:08:19.000 Because it's not a gun that's killing all these people.

01:08:22.000 It's a person who's doing something that is horrific and impossible to stop.

01:08:28.000 It's a person that's doing something.

01:08:31.000 So if they didn't have a gun, who knows what they would do?

01:08:35.000 Would they try to do it with a car?

01:08:37.000 Would they just plow over a bunch of people in the road?

01:08:39.000 Would they make a bomb? 0.98

01:08:41.000 The idea is that this tool makes it easier for them to do it, but the reality is the gun's not doing shit on its own. 0.98

01:08:47.000 And the real issue, in my mind, has always been a person able to do something like that. 0.75

01:08:53.000 How does that happen?

01:08:55.000 And why is that...

01:08:57.000 Yeah.

01:09:15.000 You know, turn the whole country into communist Russia. 0.99

01:09:17.000 And then, you know, you've got the other side that want the, you know, that say, fuck hunters, you should just kill hunters, no one should have a gun, you know, get your meat from a supermarket, this is bullshit, we need to, we need to evolve, you know, there's that argument as well. 1.00

01:09:31.000 In my opinion, it's a mental health issue. 1.00

01:09:34.000 And just the fact that guns exist.

01:09:36.000 Look, guns are crazy.

01:09:38.000 The idea that you could just point at something and make it disappear.

01:09:40.000 But there's so many guns.

01:09:43.000 There's so many gun owners.

01:09:44.000 And it's so rare, if you look at it statistically, that something like this happens.

01:09:48.000 If you look at how many human beings we have in this country, it's like 300 million.

01:09:52.000 And how many shootings like this happen where someone indiscriminately just starts whacking people around them? 0.99

01:09:58.000 It's kind of strange that it's so rare because there's so many fucking nuts. 1.00

01:10:02.000 So many fucking crazy people in this country. 1.00

01:10:04.000 It's almost, we're like blessed that these things don't happen on a regular basis. 1.00

01:10:10.000 Well, in many ways, I think the gun debate is an easier debate to have.

01:10:13.000 It's the same with addiction, right?

01:10:14.000 I mean, like, addiction is a very complicated issue.

01:10:16.000 Mental health is a very complicated issue.

01:10:18.000 And, you know, it's not as easy as to talk about, do you want guns or do you not want guns?

01:10:24.000 Can you have guns or can you not have guns?

01:10:27.000 Yeah.

01:10:32.000 The same laws that make it easy for anybody to access guns also makes it easy for people who you don't want having guns to have guns.

01:10:39.000 And so if you're comfortable with that, and there are many states and there are many people that are comfortable with that, then that's great.

01:10:44.000 And if you're not, if you fear the damage that a gun can do in the wrong person's hand, then that's also a worthy thing to debate, I think.

01:10:54.000 Yeah, but it's a much easier debate.

01:10:56.000 I agree with you.

01:10:57.000 It's much more black and white.

01:10:58.000 It's about having the right to bear arms, to have arms, and what should be the limits on that, and then pills, which actually, you know, it's a much more of a gray area debate.

01:11:11.000 Yeah, it certainly is. 0.99

01:11:13.000 And even if there is gun laws, I guess you could punish people harder for selling you an AK-47 in a parking lot, but the fact that you could just do it, Anybody who wants to stop background checks from owning guns is an asshole. 0.99

01:11:31.000 It's really that simple. 0.95

01:11:33.000 I think the vast majority of people just agree on most things, and then it's the sort of extremes of both sides that sort of hijack the debate.

01:11:46.000 We go through background checks anytime we want to buy a car.

01:11:51.000 And they ask for ID if you want to get a beer to make sure you're over 21. So why not ask for your ID or get a background check if you want to buy a dangerous weapon?

01:12:00.000 I saw the best Twitter post on this.

01:12:02.000 Somebody wrote, this is the way to solve the gun problems. 1.00

01:12:06.000 Take everybody who has a gun and kill them. 1.00

01:12:08.000 I was like, Jesus Christ. 1.00

01:12:10.000 See, that is...

01:12:12.000 Talk about missing the point.

01:12:14.000 That doesn't help the debate.

01:12:16.000 But it was just one of those things that, like, this extreme reaction that people have to the gun issue.

01:12:23.000 When the reality is, and I'm not in the Ted Nugent camp, but the reality is when you look at the actual numbers of people with guns and the small amount of times that these things happen, it's really not a gun issue.

01:12:36.000 It's a mental health issue.

01:12:37.000 No, but there's the sort of pedestrian violence that happens every day with guns.

01:12:41.000 Sure.

01:12:41.000 You know, there's rare, you know, mass shootings and stuff like that.

01:12:45.000 But every day, you know, either accidentally or on purpose, people are getting shot with guns and killed.

01:12:50.000 Yeah, I think there's half a million a year.

01:12:51.000 Yeah, that's true.

01:12:52.000 And, you know, the thing is, is that the part that I loved about doing the piece, and was when we started that, is we went...

01:12:59.000 To this shooting range and we took part in this festival.

01:13:03.000 It was the Independence Day rifle match.

01:13:06.000 And, you know, there were guys that are obviously very pro-gun and would disagree with anybody who says that there should be any limits on gun ownership or anything like that.

01:13:15.000 But at the same time, a lot of the guys we were speaking to were very serious about the safety that went into owning a gun.

01:13:22.000 There's a responsibility there that if you own something, just like if you own...

01:13:25.000 Drive a car.

01:13:26.000 There's a responsibility to know how to drive a car and to educate yourself.

01:13:30.000 So the NRA, they offer these pistol classes and they teach you how to unload, load, and how to do everything safely.

01:13:40.000 I think it's not mandatory for gun owners, but I think anybody that wants to own a gun should certainly take a class on how to handle a weapon.

01:13:48.000 Definitely.

01:13:49.000 Yes.

01:13:49.000 They're super dangerous.

01:13:50.000 Yeah, I don't think there's any debate now whatsoever.

01:13:52.000 And I think another issue that needs to be taken into consideration is how many people's lives are saved with guns from bad guys.

01:13:59.000 I mean, how many times have police in justifiable cases shot people?

01:14:05.000 I mean, when you look at the number of people that are shot in this country, Sometimes it's people that are protecting their home from a burglar.

01:14:11.000 Sometimes it's a woman trying to prevent a rape. 1.00

01:14:13.000 I mean, all these things are true as well.

01:14:16.000 So it isn't a black and white issue, and that's what gets people really weird.

01:14:19.000 And, you know, by the way, if you're really adamant about gun control and you're really adamant about stopping gun violence...

01:14:27.000 Pay attention to the fact that we're involved in wars.

01:14:29.000 Two crazy ones.

01:14:31.000 And they're in places that don't make any sense.

01:14:33.000 And people are dying over there.

01:14:35.000 Innocent people, yeah.

01:14:36.000 Yeah, a lot of innocent people.

01:14:38.000 And...

01:14:39.000 How about drones? 0.99

01:14:40.000 There's a lot of other shit going on. 0.99

01:14:42.000 It's not just happening right here. 0.99

01:14:44.000 It's a violence issue.

01:14:45.000 It's a detachment from humanity issue.

01:14:48.000 It's a very strange one.

01:14:50.000 It's one that seems to be lingering in our transition from this primal alpha male monkey thing that we used to be to whatever we're becoming as we become more and more educated and more and more Aware of the consequences of our actions and more and more hopefully enlightened.

01:15:07.000 We still have this thing where you can just press a button and people explode.

01:15:12.000 And anybody can get one in the parking lot after being online in 45 minutes.

01:15:19.000 We're so strange. 0.96

01:15:20.000 I mean, people are so goddamn strange. 0.92

01:15:23.000 And if you really look at it that way, if you were an objective observer, You know, from another planet that's sent here to report back on Earth. 0.99

01:15:30.000 Boy, what a fucking story you would have. 0.98

01:15:32.000 You'd have to sit them down and you'd have to go, okay. 1.00

01:15:36.000 Where can I start?

01:15:37.000 Yeah, you go, this is not what we had hoped for.

01:15:39.000 Let me just say that first. 1.00

01:15:41.000 They're fucking crazy. 1.00

01:15:42.000 First of all, they're all on pills. 1.00

01:15:44.000 Okay?

01:15:45.000 They got a lot of guns.

01:15:46.000 They got guns.

01:15:47.000 They're on pills. 1.00

01:15:48.000 No one knows what the fuck they're doing. 0.99

01:15:51.000 It's all bananas. 0.99

01:15:54.000 Journalists are driving into trees on 90 miles an hour, not leaving skid marks.

01:15:59.000 When you guys saw that, did you get scared?

01:16:00.000 Thinking about the business that you're in.

01:16:02.000 We're talking about Michael Hastings, who's a journalist for the Rolling Stone magazine, and he was involved in exactly what you're not involved in.

01:16:11.000 He was involved in singling out individuals and going after them, and he did Did it to a very powerful general and wrote some piece in Rolling Stone that got the guy fired and repeatedly told people that people had told him they were going to kill him.

01:16:24.000 And then one day his car going 100 miles an hour in Hollywood slammed directly into a pole or a tree and killed him.

01:16:36.000 It burst into flames.

01:16:37.000 No skid marks at all.

01:16:39.000 You know, you think, well, that's crazy.

01:16:42.000 Then, this guy who was involved in security for President Clinton and Bush said that you can hack into a car now.

01:16:52.000 Richard Clarke.

01:16:52.000 Yeah, and that today it's possible to hack into a modern car and control the steering, control the acceleration, control the brakes, and then it's very possible you could remote control a car and make someone accelerate and slam into a tree and make the car explode.

01:17:10.000 Yeah!

01:17:15.000 I'm sure you're aware of that story.

01:17:16.000 I mean, I've heard just some of the conspiracies that surround this.

01:17:21.000 I don't really know the details, but I will say that he was a great reporter and definitely a big loss for the industry, for sure.

01:17:31.000 That's a good way to play it safe.

01:17:33.000 No, no, I really don't.

01:17:34.000 I applaud you on your effort.

01:17:36.000 No, it's true.

01:17:37.000 So basically tell us what you think he was killed.

01:17:39.000 Oh, I don't know.

01:17:40.000 I have no idea.

01:17:40.000 I think it would be foolish of me with my zero understanding of the mechanics of modern automobiles, zero understanding of the computer equipment that runs them.

01:17:50.000 I have zero technical knowledge.

01:17:52.000 I'm just...

01:17:52.000 Richard Clarke, is that who it was?

01:17:54.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:17:55.000 There's several others as well who have studied the mechanisms behind the possibilities of remote controlling various things, hacking into them, you know.

01:18:06.000 I don't know.

01:18:07.000 I don't know if it's true.

01:18:08.000 I have no idea, but it's scary.

01:18:10.000 That sounds like such a scary scenario.

01:18:11.000 It's very scary, yeah.

01:18:13.000 I mean, it's right out of a movie.

01:18:15.000 The guy just drives, he's about to release this crazy story, tells everyone that the FBI is looking into him and interviewing all of his friends, and then right into a tree.

01:18:25.000 Boom! 0.99

01:18:25.000 And the car explodes and he dies. 0.99

01:18:27.000 And now the story is just going to slowly disappear.

01:18:29.000 You know, Kim Kardashian will get pregnant from some other dude in a couple of months. 1.00

01:18:33.000 Kanye West will be on the outs.

01:18:34.000 And everybody will forget about Michael Hastings.

01:18:37.000 You know, a few people try to talk about it on the line.

01:18:40.000 And other folks will go, Oh God, are you still talking about Michael Hastings?

01:18:43.000 Let it go.

01:18:45.000 Please.

01:18:47.000 No, we should talk about the great work that he definitely did.

01:18:50.000 Yes.

01:18:51.000 Yeah.

01:18:52.000 But...

01:18:53.000 I think also a thing to take into consideration is that we live in an age of extreme transparency.

01:18:58.000 And anybody who does something that evil, it seems like it's almost impossible to completely cover things up.

01:19:05.000 And if it's not impossible now, I feel like it will be in a few years.

01:19:10.000 I feel like any sort of record of something of that magnitude, there's going to be a way that that's going to come to light in some sort of a WikiLeaks type scenario.

01:19:20.000 You're an optimist.

01:19:21.000 Me?

01:19:21.000 I like that.

01:19:22.000 It all comes out.

01:19:23.000 I'm an optimist.

01:19:24.000 I'm what I would call a technological optimist.

01:19:26.000 There's that famous Orson Welles quote that history is a race between education and catastrophe.

01:19:35.000 And I think if you look at the trends, education seems to kind of always be winning.

01:19:42.000 And I think part of that is that ultimately what's good for the entire race triumphs over what's good for the few. 0.88

01:19:51.000 And I think even what's good for the few in terms of bad for the entire race is bad for the few because I think there's a thing called karma and I think that's real.

01:20:01.000 And I think that the effect that you have on your environment is a very tangible thing. 1.00

01:20:05.000 The way people react to you is a very physical, real, measurable thing and that comes from being a piece of shit. 0.99

01:20:12.000 If you're a piece of shit and you do horrible things, it's very difficult to feel warm and fuzzy and enjoy love and happiness and have friends and I think that ultimately technology most likely will be the tool that balances all that out because I think that with technology comes this transparency. 1.00

01:20:31.000 With this transparency, you get to see the actions of these few. 1.00

01:20:36.000 In a different light than we got to see, like whether it was in the 60s or the 70s or when Eisenhower warned of the – when he left office and he was warning about the military-industrial complex.

01:20:47.000 That was just a film that was on television for one brief moment in a time where there was no VCRs.

01:20:54.000 So it's like how much impact is that even going to have then?

01:20:57.000 Whereas now, many, many years later, over half a century later, That film is being played over and over again on the internet as an example of how this is probably an issue that's been around secretly behind the curtain for a long time.

01:21:11.000 But now every day there's some new thing.

01:21:15.000 Every day there's some new piece of information.

01:21:18.000 Every day there's some new story.

01:21:19.000 Whether it's Edward Snowden or whether it's someone else releasing something else or some people getting arrested for something that you can't believe is real.

01:21:28.000 It's almost impossible to cover that stuff up these days.

01:21:32.000 Yeah, no.

01:21:33.000 It's crazy.

01:21:34.000 I like that worldview though. 0.98

01:21:36.000 I like that idea that… Yeah, people say I'm ridiculous. 0.98

01:21:39.000 You could easily say I'm ridiculous. 0.93

01:21:41.000 First of all, I'm not qualified to give any prognostication whatsoever. 0.87

01:21:44.000 I can't give a prognosis.

01:21:46.000 This is just a gut reaction.

01:21:48.000 But I think that if you look at the way life used to be a thousand years ago… And the way life is today.

01:21:55.000 Try living during the Inquisition.

01:21:57.000 Try living in the Middle Ages. 0.99

01:21:58.000 That's what's so funny.

01:21:59.000 You always hear people, oh, we're living in the most violent time of our history, and it's not actually.

01:22:05.000 It's the least violent time in history, and we actually have it pretty good.

01:22:08.000 But I'm a strong believer in karma as well.

01:22:11.000 I think we're dealing with a time where we're really confused.

01:22:15.000 There's obviously some bad spots everywhere.

01:22:17.000 There always have been.

01:22:18.000 It's very difficult to be a human being.

01:22:20.000 And it's very difficult to develop a human being, to raise a person.

01:22:23.000 So to have a baby become an adult, the process is insane.

01:22:26.000 There's so many pitfalls and nobody gives you a guidebook. 0.99

01:22:29.000 Nobody knows what the fuck we're doing.

01:22:30.000 And we're getting information from 7 million or 7 billion, rather, people a day, essentially. 0.94

01:22:36.000 We're getting not all the information, but anything crazy. 0.98

01:22:39.000 Anything fucked up. 1.00

01:22:41.000 A man born with 10 penises. 1.00

01:22:42.000 There he is. 1.00

01:22:44.000 That'll get through.

01:22:45.000 Yeah, that gets through.

01:22:46.000 Everything crazy gets through.

01:22:48.000 And it's almost like we weren't designed for that.

01:22:51.000 We're designed for what's happening in the tribe.

01:22:54.000 Who are those guys with swords coming over the hill? 1.00

01:22:56.000 Hey, we got to get the fuck out of here. 0.99

01:22:58.000 That's what we're sort of designed for. 0.92

01:23:00.000 We're dealing with the same genetics, essentially, that people had 10,000 years ago.

01:23:04.000 And there was no communication back then.

01:23:07.000 There was nothing.

01:23:07.000 And now it's on your phone.

01:23:09.000 I was at a restaurant the other day with a buddy of mine, and I'm like, I'm a fucking junkie. 1.00

01:23:12.000 I can't put this goddamn phone down. 1.00

01:23:14.000 I have to keep checking this stupid phone. 1.00

01:23:16.000 I'm such an asshole. 1.00

01:23:18.000 What's going on on Twitter? 1.00

01:23:20.000 It's so bad, but it's this...

01:23:23.000 What's happening is I keep getting information, and I'll go, and I'll see something, and ooh, and maybe I'll see nothing, and I'll look more, and I'll see nothing, and I'll look more, and then ooh, a new post by someone I follow or something crazy is happening.

01:23:35.000 Especially when it's a married couple, and we're in the same sort of business, and we're always, we're journalists, and we're always looking for information, but I find that it's almost like a ping pong ball for us.

01:23:45.000 I'm looking at the phone, and he's really mad at me because we're having dinner, and I'm looking at the phone, and then I put it down, and then he's looking at the phone, and I'm getting really mad at him.

01:23:53.000 Try to keep the romance alive and she's checking her phone.

01:23:58.000 I was at a restaurant the other day, and I watched four people, and none of them talked, and they all stayed on their phone the entire time they were sitting there eating together.

01:24:05.000 Yeah, but then you look at them, you're like, oh, these people, and five minutes later, you're the one checking your phone, and they're looking at you saying the same thing.

01:24:12.000 Yeah, we are junkies.

01:24:14.000 We really are.

01:24:15.000 I interviewed Ray Kurzweil for my...

01:24:18.000 I have a new show that's coming out on SyFy.

01:24:20.000 Yeah, congrats.

01:24:21.000 Thank you.

01:24:21.000 And one of the episodes, we were talking about the convergence, the human...

01:24:25.000 To machine convergence and then the idea that one day we will be some sort of a combination of people and technology.

01:24:32.000 And he was essentially making the argument that it's already happened and that it's just we're slowly accepting it but that technology is in pacemakers and in hearing aids and we are so attached to our phones that It could be argued that if you have a certain number of people that constantly carry phones with them,

01:24:51.000 the argument could be that you're already a part of that.

01:24:55.000 You just haven't figured out a way to put it in your body.

01:24:57.000 So the way before they had hearing aids, those dudes used to carry those horns. 0.53

01:25:01.000 What?

01:25:02.000 And they'd lean forward.

01:25:03.000 You remember those? 0.99

01:25:04.000 You'd see them in the old Three Stooges movies and shit. 0.98

01:25:07.000 There's like a giant buffalo horn. 0.99

01:25:09.000 What?

01:25:09.000 It would get close to you.

01:25:11.000 Well, now Google Glass, and now you don't even have to hold anything.

01:25:13.000 Have you played with that yet?

01:25:15.000 No, I haven't.

01:25:15.000 Have you?

01:25:16.000 Yes, yeah, I got a chance.

01:25:17.000 I have a friend who works at Google, and she let me...

01:25:20.000 That's one of those things, yeah, the ear thing.

01:25:22.000 That's what it used to look like.

01:25:23.000 That would help you.

01:25:26.000 She let me play with it.

01:25:27.000 It's very, very interesting.

01:25:29.000 It feels to me like a step.

01:25:33.000 Like, ooh, I'm holding on to a Model T right here.

01:25:36.000 This is what's one day going to be a Tesla.

01:25:39.000 One day it's going to be a contact lens and we're all going to have one or it'll be some sort of an implant.

01:25:45.000 So describe it to me.

01:25:46.000 Well, it's sort of crude because, sorry Google, but right now it has to be tethered to a phone.

01:25:53.000 And this is a, I played with a, it's not ready for prime time yet.

01:25:57.000 Like a prototype.

01:25:57.000 Yes, it's a prototype.

01:25:58.000 And a Google phone, like that.

01:26:01.000 And you can do things to it.

01:26:04.000 Like you can ask for, one of the things I thought was cool is like you could Google like, Ray Kurzweil.

01:26:12.000 Google Ray Kurzweil.

01:26:14.000 And all of a sudden it shows you a page right out of Google on Ray Kurzweil.

01:26:20.000 And you can see Google Ray Kurzweil video.

01:26:24.000 And it shows you all these video options.

01:26:26.000 And then you can play them off of YouTube.

01:26:28.000 But is it projected somewhere?

01:26:29.000 Or are you looking at the glass?

01:26:31.000 Yes, there it is.

01:26:32.000 That's me with one of those things on.

01:26:33.000 You can see it over there, too.

01:26:34.000 This TV in front of you, actually.

01:26:36.000 No worries.

01:26:38.000 Yeah, you see it sort of floating in space, but nobody can see it.

01:26:42.000 Like, if I have it on and I'm talking to you, you can't see what I'm seeing.

01:26:45.000 I see it, but you can't see it.

01:26:47.000 And it's one of those things where if you look over here, you don't see it, but you look here, you see it.

01:26:51.000 It's really trippy.

01:26:53.000 It's strange.

01:26:54.000 But the strangest aspect is that I felt like I was holding on to something that was going to be something way greater someday.

01:27:01.000 And this is just the first steps of this weird sort of a transformation into the symbiote.

01:27:07.000 It's so wild.

01:27:08.000 Yeah, it is wild.

01:27:09.000 Yeah, that's right.

01:27:09.000 It's freaky.

01:27:10.000 Not sure if I'm looking forward to it, I have to say.

01:27:12.000 I feel like I am, because I feel like I enjoy so many aspects of technology already.

01:27:18.000 I think people are afraid, for the most, we're afraid of a loss of privacy. 0.93

01:27:22.000 But if we could get people to stop being assholes, if everybody was really cool... 0.95

01:27:28.000 Would you care if everybody looked at your pictures and got into email? 0.97

01:27:32.000 Or that we know that people are looking at everything we do.

01:27:35.000 But our issue is not with people looking at our stuff. 0.93

01:27:38.000 Our issues are with assholes looking at our stuff or people using our information against us. 0.90

01:27:45.000 That's what we're really concerned with. 0.85

01:27:46.000 And I wonder if you could extrapolate this sort of – This thing that we're going through with technology where there's this massive curve and it's spinning and spinning faster and faster until this exponential growth,

01:28:02.000 if it was possible to somehow or another encourage that in human behavior as well as with technology, if technology could be used by By in aiding in this sort of like connection with people and aiding in emphasizing empathy and emphasizing camaraderie and friendship and love.

01:28:22.000 If that could be like seen as like a more worthwhile ethic.

01:28:27.000 A more worthwhile state of consciousness and behavior.

01:28:31.000 It sounds like very hippy.

01:28:32.000 No, you're really optimistic.

01:28:34.000 Well, I think it's possible.

01:28:36.000 I really do.

01:28:37.000 Yeah, it's great.

01:28:37.000 Yeah, I love that.

01:28:38.000 Because I think there's repercussions that people experience now when they do something terrible to someone on the internet where there's a flood of people who will go after them now that no one ever had before.

01:28:49.000 Did you ever see there was a video where Anonymous released this video of this girl who was throwing puppies into a river?

01:28:56.000 Oh my god.

01:28:57.000 And then they went after her, exposed her, and chased her, and it was really horrific stuff, but people swarmed on this evil behavior.

01:29:08.000 Mm-hmm.

01:29:27.000 In time, would that not slowly sort of like cure people of this sort of behavior?

01:29:35.000 If not, cure people, make it far less likely to happen.

01:29:39.000 Yeah, because the golden rule becomes... 0.98

01:29:42.000 Because people know what the fuck's going on, and they're not going to tolerate it. 0.86

01:29:45.000 If everyone knows that something like that happened, someone did a horrible thing, wouldn't that lessen the occurrences of these things? 0.99

01:29:52.000 If there were repercussions, the masses had access.

01:29:56.000 The problem is, of course, that we don't think of that loss of privacy in that way.

01:30:02.000 We think of a loss of privacy in Big Brother.

01:30:04.000 We think of the NSA's listening to all your phone calls and copying all your emails.

01:30:10.000 It sounds very Orwellian and dangerous and scary, and that this is an erosion of privacy.

01:30:19.000 It seems inevitable.

01:30:21.000 And if it's not inevitable in the sense that the government gets it, I think they might get a hold of it first.

01:30:27.000 But it seems like everybody's going to get it.

01:30:32.000 That's where it's going.

01:30:34.000 It's all moving to this area of no boundaries.

01:30:37.000 It's very weird, but if you look at how life has changed since the internet, you know, when did we get it, like 90-ish, 94-ish, when it really took hold?

01:30:47.000 I got on AOL, I think I was in 94, I was on.

01:30:49.000 You were an early adopter.

01:30:50.000 Yeah, well, I owe it to my friend Robbie.

01:30:53.000 My friend Robbie was a computer major.

01:30:54.000 Robbie Prince?

01:30:55.000 What's up, dude?

01:30:56.000 He was a computer major in college and then became a stand-up comedian and was telling me, like, oh, it's a great way to write your jokes.

01:31:01.000 I didn't know how to type at all.

01:31:04.000 But I remember getting online the first day on AOL, and they have, like, all these categories you can look into, and I was fascinated.

01:31:12.000 I was like, this is the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life.

01:31:15.000 If you have a question, and it was so rudimentary and crude with a 14.4 baud modem, but...

01:31:21.000 Extrapolate that from 1994. Take 1994 and go and look at how we are now in 2013. I would have never guessed.

01:31:31.000 First of all, I'd never guess that I'd be sitting in some room talking to some people who made a documentary.

01:31:37.000 And the only way we communicated until today was strictly through this electronic medium.

01:31:42.000 No publicists, no nothing, no one hooking this up, and no formal process.

01:31:49.000 And then, now, no producers, no network, no nothing, no filtration, no censorship, instantaneously broadcast.

01:31:58.000 And my Ustream page has, right now, 14 million views. 0.98

01:32:02.000 Damn. 0.98

01:32:03.000 Yeah, so it reaches a lot of people. 0.99

01:32:05.000 It's not like a couple weirdos are checking it out.

01:32:08.000 Yeah.

01:32:08.000 And then it goes on iTunes and at least a half a million will download each individual episode from either that or Stitcher or just the raw MP3. Like this is a crazy shift in the way things were done just 20 years from now.

01:32:22.000 And then you think about Facebook, you think about Twitter, you could take a picture of something, you put it online and then this guy retweets it and that guy retweets it.

01:32:30.000 And if it's something, especially if it's something big or a story big, it could get retweeted by millions.

01:32:34.000 And then before you know it, it becomes a news story and then before you know it, It becomes something that the whole country knows about.

01:32:39.000 And it's almost instantaneous.

01:32:41.000 I look at that and I say, how is it possible that that's not going to continue to go in that same direction?

01:32:46.000 And I really do think it's going to be beneficial.

01:32:49.000 I think there's going to be pitfalls for sure as we sort of figure out our way and how to navigate this new world that we live in.

01:32:56.000 Pardon the phrase.

01:32:57.000 But I ultimately think that it's going to be beneficial.

01:33:02.000 I am sold.

01:33:04.000 I think it's going to be...

01:33:04.000 How dare you.

01:33:07.000 I am too.

01:33:09.000 I was not trying to stop technology here.

01:33:11.000 No, I am too.

01:33:12.000 It's just that it's going to make our romantic dinners even harder.

01:33:16.000 Yeah, because you're going, are you looking at me or are you looking at your Google contact lens?

01:33:20.000 Exactly. 1.00

01:33:21.000 You son of a bitch. 1.00

01:33:22.000 Are you looking at my eyes? 1.00

01:33:23.000 I'm not sure.

01:33:24.000 Well, the thing is about these things, they seem to want to operate on voice recognition.

01:33:29.000 It seems to be that's what the trend is with these things.

01:33:31.000 That would be very difficult to hide.

01:33:33.000 You know, you can't say, oh, listen, honey, Google, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:33:36.000 I totally agree with you.

01:33:38.000 Google new shoes.

01:33:40.000 Yeah, it would be, I don't know.

01:33:42.000 I mean, it would be nice if we all took our Google contact lenses off as we entered in.

01:33:48.000 Exactly.

01:33:49.000 Mandatory.

01:33:50.000 Yeah, I guess it's just an inevitability of the world we live in.

01:33:54.000 We just have to accept the fact that times, they are changing.

01:33:57.000 Yeah.

01:33:59.000 For the better.

01:34:00.000 Hopefully.

01:34:00.000 I think so.

01:34:01.000 Maybe I'm wrong. 0.95

01:34:02.000 I'm fucking wrong all the time. 0.97

01:34:03.000 Don't listen to me. 0.75

01:34:04.000 What other subjects did you guys cover?

01:34:09.000 Oh, snap. 0.99

01:34:27.000 So we basically went undercover. 0.94

01:34:30.000 I went undercover as a prostitute trying to get a job at a massage parlor in Houston. 0.82

01:34:35.000 And within five minutes I was approached by this guy who tried to get me to be a prostitute for him. 0.97

01:34:42.000 He wanted to be my pimp. 0.89

01:34:44.000 And meanwhile, Darren was filming all of this from across the street in the car.

01:34:48.000 Oh my god.

01:34:49.000 How are you not freaking out?

01:34:50.000 You must have been freaking out.

01:34:51.000 I was freaking out a little bit.

01:34:53.000 He was.

01:34:53.000 And because, you know, technology has evolved so much, but yet we didn't have all the technology we needed with us at the time.

01:35:00.000 We just had our iPhone.

01:35:01.000 I had my iPhone on mute, but on speakerphone, so he could hear what was happening.

01:35:05.000 And then I had the little glasses, secret filming glasses.

01:35:15.000 Right, right, right.

01:35:30.000 You look so clean, which is a compliment that I've never gotten before.

01:35:33.000 You look really clean.

01:35:34.000 It made me wonder what other kind of rules he had.

01:35:36.000 No scams.

01:35:38.000 No pus.

01:35:40.000 You're a clean, clean girl.

01:35:42.000 And meanwhile, and he kept on insisting for me to go into the car with him and Darren across the street.

01:35:47.000 Couldn't see where I was at and thought that I had gotten into the car with him and was sort of...

01:36:12.000 It's really sad.

01:36:15.000 Many times teenage girls who, you know, are at a shopping mall and they're approached by this guy who says, you're beautiful, you're the most beautiful girl I've ever seen, I'll give you everything you need in the world, come with me, travel with me.

01:36:25.000 You know, sometimes these girls are for whatever reason, they don't have good relationships with their parents or they come from a bad background and they accept and they go travel around America with these guys and very soon after they become, you know, they're sex slaves and they're sold out for,

01:36:41.000 you know, $200 a night.

01:36:43.000 It's very, very sad.

01:36:45.000 And somehow or another, they keep them from escaping?

01:36:48.000 They keep them from escaping, yes.

01:36:50.000 First, by just...

01:36:52.000 Persuasion.

01:36:53.000 Persuasion.

01:36:53.000 Coercion.

01:36:55.000 And beating them by violence.

01:36:58.000 And some girls are even branded with tattoos of their pimps and stuff like that. 1.00

01:37:01.000 Yeah, we interviewed one girl that had a dragon tattoo with the name...

01:37:05.000 It was a panther, I think.

01:37:06.000 A panther, sorry.

01:37:07.000 A panther tattoo with the name of her pimp in the back.

01:37:09.000 And all the girls that were in her ring all had the same tattoo.

01:37:13.000 And, you know, sometimes they're scared to go back home.

01:37:16.000 Some of the girls get hooked on drugs. 1.00

01:37:18.000 The pimps get them hooked on drugs.

01:37:20.000 And a few of the girls that we interviewed said they went to the police and told the police, but the police didn't believe them. 0.65

01:37:26.000 And they just arrested them for being prostitutes. 1.00

01:37:28.000 So they spent a night in jail and they kept on saying they had a pimp and the police said nothing about it.

01:37:32.000 And as soon as they were released, the pimp was outside of the jail waiting for them to come out.

01:37:37.000 Put them right back to work.

01:37:38.000 To work, yeah.

01:37:39.000 I mean, they're worth a lot of money, you know?

01:37:41.000 Jesus.

01:37:42.000 Yeah, it's like they're shepherds, you know?

01:37:45.000 It is.

01:37:46.000 Farmers.

01:37:46.000 Yeah.

01:37:47.000 It's insane.

01:37:48.000 It is.

01:37:49.000 It really is sad.

01:37:50.000 And it was really interesting.

01:37:51.000 One of the operations, these sort of undercover operations we did was in Charlotte, which is a big place for sex trafficking.

01:38:00.000 I think?

01:38:23.000 And it was me and this other woman who works in this organization. 0.86

01:38:27.000 And we went out again with a secret camera, Darren again filming from the car.

01:38:30.000 And we saw a girl who seemed to be sort of lost.

01:38:34.000 She had just gotten out of the car.

01:38:35.000 Her jeans were ripped. 0.64

01:38:37.000 And we called her and started asking, are you okay?

01:38:41.000 And she said, no, I'm not okay.

01:38:43.000 A guy just beat me and I'm not feeling well.

01:38:46.000 And as we're talking to this girl, suddenly it's as if we had...

01:38:52.000 Yeah.

01:39:12.000 And that's when they came out and started calling us and then we left.

01:39:17.000 But it's really interesting and it's happening all around the United States.

01:39:21.000 God.

01:39:23.000 Wow.

01:39:24.000 It's so disturbing.

01:39:26.000 Now, does that happen in countries where there's legalized prostitution? 1.00

01:39:32.000 That's a very good question.

01:39:34.000 I don't know.

01:39:39.000 Just from out of the top of my head, I wouldn't think, you know, obviously one of the big things, the reason why these rings exist, it's because it's illegal to be a prostitute. 0.68

01:39:50.000 So the prostitutes feel safer. 0.90

01:39:53.000 If they want to sell themselves, they feel safer having somebody who looks after them and who essentially at the end of the day takes away all their money.

01:40:00.000 So this is what we heard again and again.

01:40:04.000 It's sort of the same issue that exists in the drug world where if you make things illegal, then you sort of create this atmosphere where only the outlaws profit.

01:40:15.000 And I know that in Amsterdam where drugs are pretty much legal or at least tolerated as far as marijuana and many drugs, They have a very low rate of addiction and very low rate of AIDS. They have legalized prostitution.

01:40:31.000 I would wonder how much of this type of thing, of sex slavery, is mitigated by that. 0.83

01:40:43.000 Most places in Nevada, right, where it's legal, and I think that's the argument that a lot of the brothel owners make, is that we can make it safe, we can make it, you know, the girls attested, the girls... 0.99

01:40:54.000 Are there under their own volition and, you know, they get to keep their money as opposed to have the money taken away.

01:41:01.000 We visited some of these brothels and I was actually really impressed.

01:41:05.000 On the show?

01:41:05.000 No, a different show.

01:41:06.000 For a different show.

01:41:07.000 But, you know, they get tested for AIDS on a weekly basis, for all sorts of sexual transmitted disease on a weekly basis.

01:41:14.000 And, you know, the girls feel safe.

01:41:16.000 At least they're in the brothel and they're not out in the streets.

01:41:19.000 Yeah, it's another one of those things.

01:41:22.000 It's like a personal freedom issue almost. 1.00

01:41:24.000 Should a woman, if she's crazy and she loves sex, should she be allowed to be a prostitute? 1.00

01:41:30.000 I wouldn't want my daughter or my friend's daughter or my friend. 1.00

01:41:35.000 I wouldn't want anybody that I know doing that.

01:41:38.000 I wouldn't want anyone that I know being a prostitute, but I also wouldn't want anybody I know being a hired killer. 0.69

01:41:43.000 I wouldn't want anybody I know working on an oil field when it blows up.

01:41:47.000 There's a lot of things I wouldn't want my friends to do. 0.97

01:41:49.000 But do I think that they should be allowed to be a prostitute? 1.00

01:41:52.000 Why is it that sex is something that everybody wants, but you can't sell it? 0.98

01:41:57.000 Why is that?

01:41:58.000 Who says?

01:42:00.000 We've met women on all sides of this issue.

01:42:05.000 Women that are high-paid, call girls and stuff like that, who very much see it as an empowerment issue. 1.00

01:42:12.000 But the vast majority, I think, of girls out there are being exploited against their will, and I think that's the issue.

01:42:19.000 Because it's illegal.

01:42:23.000 Again, it goes down to that same issue of human nature.

01:42:25.000 We're such a strange animal.

01:42:27.000 And when you tell us that something is wrong, that we can't do it, then it becomes this weird itch that people want to scratch.

01:42:34.000 And I wonder how many people actually – I wonder that study.

01:42:37.000 How many people actually go to prostitutes because it's illegal as opposed to legal prostitutes in countries where it's tolerated?

01:42:44.000 I wonder if they have less people.

01:42:46.000 Side-by-side study between prostitutes. 0.58

01:42:48.000 Double-blind placebo prostitute study. 0.78

01:42:50.000 Exactly.

01:42:51.000 Can we do it?

01:42:53.000 No.

01:42:53.000 Can we get funding for that?

01:42:55.000 Well, it seems like a pattern that exists.

01:43:03.000 Things are illegal.

01:43:04.000 People want to do them.

01:43:05.000 Bad people sell them to the people who want to do them.

01:43:07.000 Then you have crime.

01:43:08.000 So basically, that's what our show is, essentially.

01:43:10.000 And then we go do a show about them all.

01:43:11.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:43:13.000 Is there anything you guys did during this new show that really shocked you?

01:43:17.000 Is there anything that really stands out or something that you never expected?

01:43:23.000 I mean, I thought it was...

01:43:25.000 The pimp moment was a shocking one.

01:43:28.000 I've never seen a pimp sort of use his game to try to pick someone up before.

01:43:34.000 I've heard about it, you know, secondhand stories, but I actually see...

01:43:37.000 Especially your wife. 0.91

01:43:37.000 Especially since it was my wife. 0.91

01:43:39.000 That was really interesting how they sort of talk about it and they try to sell it.

01:43:43.000 I was really nervous going in, not only because I was filming undercover and that is always nerve-wracking, but also because I was trying to apply for a job just to show sort of what this is like, what this sex trafficking underworld is like.

01:43:58.000 Not that I was going to work as a prostitute, but just to be able to get into these massage parlors and see how easy it is to get a job. 1.00

01:44:04.000 And I was nervous that they were going to turn me down and say, I'm sorry, you're too old or too fat or too this or too that. 0.96

01:44:11.000 That's funny.

01:44:12.000 As a woman, that's the first thing. 0.80

01:44:13.000 So when this guy approaches me and starts saying that I look very clean...

01:44:18.000 Did you always go, hey, all right, I can pass.

01:44:21.000 Yeah, I came back to the car.

01:44:23.000 The first thing I told Darren, I was like, I still got it.

01:44:26.000 That's hilarious.

01:44:28.000 What other subjects were covered?

01:44:29.000 I mean, how many episodes did you guys do?

01:44:31.000 It's six episodes.

01:44:32.000 Six episodes.

01:44:32.000 We covered animal rights, activism.

01:44:35.000 Oh, did you cover the Animal Liberation Organization?

01:44:39.000 No, we didn't really delve into that too much.

01:44:42.000 What we were looking into was the guys that go undercover into factory farms and film abusive animals on factory farms, and then they turn it into campaigns to I try to get people to stop eating meat or to sort of improve conditions for factory farm animals and stuff like that.

01:44:59.000 So there's this sort of whole very successful campaign by animal rights groups in the last decade or so that have used the undercover camera and so we figured since we're doing a show about undercover filming, Let's see if we can hook up with these guys and see what their world is like.

01:45:17.000 So we hooked up with this one guy who's been doing it for like 10 years, and he remains anonymous.

01:45:23.000 It goes by a fake name in the show, but his old Life has just been penetrating these farms and capturing pictures of abuse on film and stuff like that.

01:45:33.000 And this is a guy who's obviously vegan.

01:45:35.000 He's completely against the eating consumption of animal meat.

01:45:41.000 And he still, every day, he goes to work when he goes undercover and he has to kill these animals just to be able to record what happens inside these factory farms.

01:45:48.000 Wow.

01:45:49.000 And then there's legislation that is being passed right now in several states to try to stop, to prohibit what these guys are doing by filming undercover.

01:45:56.000 Wow.

01:45:56.000 Yeah, I've seen that.

01:45:57.000 How is that flying?

01:45:59.000 How are they allowing people to do that?

01:46:01.000 Because everyone is outraged.

01:46:02.000 When they see those videos, even a meteor, they watch those videos of people like, I saw one of this abuse that was going on with these cows, where this guy was hitting a cow with a crowbar.

01:46:12.000 They're so horrific.

01:46:14.000 And again, another thing is being exposed by technology.

01:46:17.000 I believe that video could have very well come from the guy that we feature.

01:46:21.000 He's sort of one of the biggest undercover animal rights activists here in the United States.

01:46:27.000 So did you alter his voice and blur out his face?

01:46:29.000 We didn't alter his voice, but we definitely...

01:46:31.000 Blurred his face.

01:46:31.000 He was in disguise, actually.

01:46:33.000 But he's had, I don't know how many name changes throughout his life, and he's been doing it for 10 years.

01:46:38.000 He's really hardcore.

01:46:40.000 If you ever want to do any undercover filming, this is the guy you need to talk to.

01:46:44.000 And he actually gave me some training because all of this show is about undercover filming.

01:46:48.000 He gave me some training into filming undercover.

01:46:51.000 He sent me out into a parking lot and told me that first I had to go to that woman over there. 1.00

01:46:56.000 She's a perfect stranger and you have to ask her.

01:46:58.000 You have to get information from her.

01:46:59.000 I want to know where she lived before she lived here. 0.99

01:47:01.000 And I had to go and do that.

01:47:02.000 And I passed that really easily.

01:47:04.000 But then the second test that he made me do was I had to go out there and make a woman sort of run away from me because she was scared. 0.98

01:47:11.000 And I'm not very good at that.

01:47:13.000 I'm good at getting information from people, but it's not in my nature to be mean or to be scary or intimidating.

01:47:20.000 And so I went to a parking lot and I just started acting wild, crazy, and not really scary, just crazy.

01:47:26.000 Like, where is water?

01:47:28.000 Where can I find some water?

01:47:29.000 And People were just staring at me with this crazy woman, probably thinking I was on bath salts or something. 1.00

01:47:36.000 Why were they trying to get you to do all these different things?

01:47:39.000 So this is part of the training, is that you have to be able to make people feel either very comfortable with you, so they give you information that you need, that you want to get for your undercover filming, Or very uncomfortable with you so that you feel the need to either leave so you can film or intimidated to a point that you will release any information you give without actually resorting to violence,

01:47:59.000 obviously.

01:48:00.000 So it was really an interesting little practice that we had with him.

01:48:04.000 Wow.

01:48:05.000 And how long has this guy been doing this?

01:48:07.000 Ten years.

01:48:08.000 He trains other people.

01:48:09.000 He's the main trainer of undercover filming for animal rights activists in the United States.

01:48:15.000 An incredible guy.

01:48:16.000 It seems to me that that's another one of those things where it's sort of a diffusion of responsibility thing when there's so many people that want meat, so many people that want food, and if you could figure out how to stuff them into smaller packages, you could extract more ones and zeros.

01:48:31.000 Definitely.

01:48:32.000 I mean, that's just that these guys that do the undercover filming, they obviously have an agenda, which is they want people to become vegan, but they're very sympathetic to the workers who sort of toil on their conditions that can at times be pretty stressful, and that's what sort of causes them to lash out many times.

01:48:50.000 And then the sort of agriculture industry obviously just sees this as a pretty big threat, these guys coming in and filming undercover in their farms.

01:48:58.000 Their argument is that they're capturing these anomalies.

01:49:02.000 This doesn't happen every day and they're using it to sort of amplify their issue.

01:49:08.000 What is his take on this though?

01:49:10.000 His take is not that it's not an anomaly at all.

01:49:12.000 He says that in every single farm he's ever entered, he's ever filmed undercover, he has witnessed animal abuse.

01:49:21.000 Wow.

01:49:21.000 That was his steak.

01:49:22.000 Does he go to these organic, free-range places?

01:49:26.000 Does he ever try those?

01:49:27.000 I think that the biggest sort of target for them are the bigger...

01:49:30.000 Factory farms.

01:49:31.000 Factory farms, yeah.

01:49:32.000 Boy, would it freak people out, though, if you go to a grass-fed, free-range farm and watch them abusing cows, too. 1.00

01:49:38.000 And you'd be like, oh, shit. 1.00

01:49:39.000 Because that's what everybody wants to pretend. 1.00

01:49:41.000 I don't have any murder on my hands.

01:49:43.000 Why?

01:49:43.000 My meat is grass-fed.

01:49:45.000 And they smile right before they cut their throats.

01:49:47.000 We actually went to a slaughterhouse. 0.69

01:49:48.000 Actually, that was probably...

01:49:50.000 That was absolutely, yeah.

01:49:52.000 You asked before what would have been one of the most surprising things.

01:49:54.000 That was probably the most surprising thing we did.

01:49:55.000 We went to a slaughterhouse.

01:49:56.000 But it was at a humane ranch.

01:49:59.000 It was a certified humane ranch.

01:50:00.000 And we saw the whole process.

01:50:01.000 We saw them tagging a baby calf.

01:50:04.000 A baby calf that was just born within the last 24 hours.

01:50:09.000 Marianna got to tag the calf's ear.

01:50:11.000 And then we saw the other end of the process where...

01:50:14.000 What is it, 18 months later or something like that, they're slaughtered and they led us onto the floor of the slaughterhouse and they said, you know, we have an open door policy because, you know, we want to be sort of as transparent as possible, you know, about how this food is, you know, raised and how it's slaughtered and, you know,

01:50:29.000 I've been eating meat all my life and I've never once seen a cow slaughtered and I thought it was a really eye-opening experience, you know, to be able to sort of consume thousands and thousands of meals and, you know, not know exactly where you're We're so disconnected from where our food comes from.

01:50:45.000 How do they kill the cow? 1.00

01:50:47.000 So they use what they call a knocker.

01:50:52.000 Like No Country for Old Men? 0.87

01:50:53.000 Yes, exactly.

01:50:55.000 And it sort of stuns the cow.

01:50:57.000 It doesn't kill them right away, but it definitely sort of Paralyzes them for a moment and puts them into a deep, unconscious state.

01:51:06.000 And then they hang them upside down and they slit the throat and they cut the arteries.

01:51:11.000 And they never wake up from that thing to the head? 0.93

01:51:13.000 No.

01:51:13.000 They bleed them to death.

01:51:14.000 So it's almost instant.

01:51:15.000 Yeah.

01:51:16.000 That seems fairly humane.

01:51:19.000 It's not how it happens at every farm, though.

01:51:21.000 Again, this is a humane farm.

01:51:23.000 What's the least humane way they do it?

01:51:26.000 Kosher?

01:51:26.000 Kosher is really bad, right?

01:51:27.000 I have no idea. 0.98

01:51:28.000 Pretty sure kosher, they just cut their neck. 1.00

01:51:30.000 I think kosher, there's a process that has to be followed, and one of the parts of the process involves cutting the neck. 0.86

01:51:39.000 I don't think you're allowed to use that stunned thing that's kosher.

01:51:44.000 There are some things that are called standard farming methods.

01:51:48.000 I think it is, right?

01:51:49.000 Standard farming procedures.

01:51:54.000 Common farming practices.

01:51:57.000 Perfectly legal, but so violent to see.

01:52:00.000 And we watched tons of videos of this.

01:52:02.000 That were filmed undercover, but the de-beaking of chickens.

01:52:07.000 So they don't poke each other because they get so close to each other.

01:52:10.000 Yeah, the cutting of the tails of the pigs.

01:52:13.000 All that is just hard to see.

01:52:15.000 The taking away of the baby pigs from their mothers.

01:52:20.000 You can see them caged in these little tiny compartments.

01:52:24.000 All that is, again, common farming practices, but very hard to see.

01:52:29.000 And obviously there's A lot of interest there for us to be disconnected from our food and not see what happens.

01:52:34.000 And I'm not a vegetarian at all.

01:52:36.000 I still eat meat, but it was definitely a very interesting place to be a part of and to find out more about how it all works.

01:52:43.000 I'm not a vegetarian either, but I certainly am not a fan of human cruelty.

01:52:51.000 And I think that's the real issue.

01:52:55.000 These animals do not live forever, and the reality is that they're There's quite a few realities when it comes to being a vegan. 0.86

01:53:03.000 One of them is, if you do decide that no one's going to eat meat anymore, and we make a law and the whole world has to let all their animals go, they're going to keep fucking, and they're going to keep making baby animals, and then you've got a real problem.

01:53:16.000 Because what are you going to do then? 0.99

01:53:17.000 Are you going to castrate the males? 0.99

01:53:18.000 Are you going to sterilize them in some way? 0.95

01:53:21.000 Are you going to reintroduce predators into the environment?

01:53:23.000 Right.

01:53:23.000 You're going to have to do something to keep the population down.

01:53:25.000 I don't know how you plan on doing that, but how are you going to do that and not put into jeopardy human beings?

01:53:31.000 There's a reason why we rose to the top of the food chain.

01:53:34.000 And one of the reasons why is because we can control our environment from predators.

01:53:37.000 We can box up a city, make it nice and tall, and keep out the mountain lines.

01:53:41.000 And we know how to do that.

01:53:42.000 There's never been a mountain line in New York City.

01:53:44.000 LA, there's been...

01:53:45.000 Santa Monica recently.

01:53:46.000 Oh my god.

01:53:47.000 Yeah, see that one?

01:53:48.000 Every time I run a Griffith Park, man, I'm afraid I'm going to get pounced on it.

01:53:51.000 I saw one very recently in Santa Barbara.

01:53:55.000 Wow.

01:53:55.000 Did you?

01:53:55.000 I was driving through Montecito.

01:53:57.000 You know where Montecito is?

01:53:58.000 Yeah.

01:53:58.000 A really beautiful neighborhood.

01:53:59.000 And this fucking thing ran across the road. 1.00

01:54:01.000 And my wife initially said, coyote. 1.00

01:54:03.000 She goes, look, it's a coyote. 0.89

01:54:05.000 And I thought it was a coyote, too.

01:54:06.000 You know, we saw it in our headlights.

01:54:07.000 And then I saw the tail.

01:54:09.000 Wow.

01:54:09.000 And I noticed that its body was kind of bouncy, whereas coyotes are really stiff.

01:54:14.000 You know, they have that sort of stiff, twitchy leg movement sort of a thing. 0.99

01:54:17.000 Oh, shit, it's a mountain lion. 0.99

01:54:19.000 And I'm like, in Santa Barbara. 1.00

01:54:20.000 Oh, man.

01:54:21.000 This is crazy.

01:54:22.000 Yeah.

01:54:22.000 It's like, this is a really urban place.

01:54:25.000 There's some guy at National Geographic right now doing a story on, like, urban wildlife.

01:54:29.000 And he recently released a picture of...

01:54:33.000 I think it was a bobcat.

01:54:34.000 I don't think it was a mountain lion, but it was a bobcat.

01:54:36.000 And it's like caught by one of those trigger cams.

01:54:38.000 And it's like at night and the whole background of downtown LA. It was basically taken by the observatory where, you know, there are millions of little children running around.

01:54:49.000 But the Griffith Observatory is hardly L.A. It's pretty rural.

01:54:53.000 It's a small area that's rural, but they have coyotes biting people there.

01:54:57.000 Like some homeless person went to sleep there and woke up because they got bit by a coyote.

01:55:02.000 The coyote came around and tested them just to see if they could eat you.

01:55:06.000 Is that good? 1.00

01:55:07.000 Well, the guy might have been really fucked up. 0.99

01:55:09.000 Who knows how drunk or high or messed up he was. 0.99

01:55:12.000 I mean, there are coyotes in our backyard constantly.

01:55:14.000 Oh, yeah. 1.00

01:55:15.000 It's L.A. A bunch of cat-eating assholes they are. 1.00

01:55:18.000 They steal your cat. 1.00

01:55:19.000 Like, very few people in LA let their cats out.

01:55:21.000 Right.

01:55:22.000 Well, because, I mean, you see all the missing signs in the neighborhoods, right?

01:55:24.000 It's like, you know what happens.

01:55:26.000 Yeah, I live in a really rural place.

01:55:28.000 And there was a mountain lion sighting in my neighborhood about a year ago.

01:55:31.000 And coyotes are there every day.

01:55:33.000 I see hawks.

01:55:34.000 And we saw a crow in our yard.

01:55:36.000 And all these other crows were squawking.

01:55:38.000 We're trying to figure out what's going on.

01:55:39.000 And the crow was, there was something wrong with it, obviously.

01:55:41.000 It was like kind of hobbling.

01:55:43.000 Yeah.

01:55:43.000 And hopping around on this branch, but it couldn't fly away.

01:55:46.000 So we went inside, and then we came out, like, I don't know, a couple hours later, and there was just feathers and guts everywhere.

01:55:54.000 All it had to do was people had to get away for a little bit, and then some predator came swooping in.

01:55:58.000 It was probably a raptor.

01:56:00.000 You know, some sort of a...

01:56:01.000 Yeah, a hawk.

01:56:03.000 Hawks are everywhere around where I live.

01:56:05.000 They're big too, man. 0.99

01:56:06.000 Big, creepy murderers. 0.99

01:56:08.000 Just flying murderers from the sky. 0.98

01:56:11.000 Swooped in and jacked this crow.

01:56:13.000 I mean, they don't eat berries.

01:56:14.000 Original drones.

01:56:15.000 Yeah.

01:56:15.000 Hawks don't, you know, steal tomatoes.

01:56:19.000 They're jack-moving things. 0.99

01:56:21.000 Anything sick, I'll take care of this.

01:56:24.000 I got it.

01:56:25.000 They're like the cleanup crew for the wounded animals.

01:56:28.000 So animals eat other animals.

01:56:30.000 That's another problem.

01:56:31.000 Is that okay?

01:56:32.000 Is it much more humane for a deer to get eaten slowly by a pack of wolves than it is to get shot by a hunter?

01:56:41.000 I don't like the idea of veganism, but I don't like the idea of animal cruelty either.

01:56:46.000 Yeah, I think that's where most people land, right?

01:56:50.000 But the animal rights groups, they think have done an effective job of sort of getting people like us who eat meat.

01:57:01.000 Thinking about it.

01:57:02.000 Yeah, thinking about it.

01:57:03.000 It is hard to watch people beating a cow or something like that.

01:57:06.000 And it should never exist.

01:57:07.000 And again, it goes back to the same thing.

01:57:09.000 It's a human issue.

01:57:10.000 It's about humanity.

01:57:11.000 It's about what is causing a person to do something like that. 0.99

01:57:15.000 Well, it's a mental illness. 0.96

01:57:16.000 It's a sickness. 1.00

01:57:17.000 Hitting a cow with a crowbar.

01:57:19.000 What is happening?

01:57:20.000 How is that possible?

01:57:21.000 I couldn't do it.

01:57:22.000 You couldn't do it.

01:57:23.000 Why is it happening?

01:57:23.000 Yeah.

01:57:24.000 Yeah.

01:57:24.000 So when we interviewed the woman who runs this humane farm, one of the questions I had was, why do you treat them?

01:57:30.000 Because they really put a lot of effort into treating these cows well while they're alive.

01:57:34.000 Why do you put such emphasis in treating well the cows if you know they're going to die, if the farm's going to kill them anyway? 0.87

01:57:40.000 And she said, exactly because we're going to kill them and use them for meat. 0.99

01:57:43.000 They're going to be our food. 1.00

01:57:44.000 Exactly because of that.

01:57:46.000 It is...

01:57:48.000 Mandatory for us to treat them well.

01:57:51.000 And I really like that philosophy.

01:57:52.000 I think that's a beautiful philosophy.

01:57:54.000 I watched an episode of Anthony Bourdain's old show, No Reservations.

01:57:59.000 And one of the things that was about this place in New York that is, they are not just a restaurant.

01:58:04.000 They're a restaurant and they have their own butcher shop and they also have their own farm.

01:58:09.000 So they grow all of their food.

01:58:11.000 I guess it was Maine.

01:58:12.000 Yes.

01:58:13.000 Okay, I'm confusing two different things.

01:58:14.000 One of them was a butcher shop that's also a farm and they grow their own food and they kill their own animals and then sell the meat.

01:58:23.000 So you know you're getting it humanely.

01:58:25.000 And the other one was a farm in Maine where they locally source everything from their own farm.

01:58:31.000 All their food, all the vegetables, all the animals.

01:58:34.000 And they were showing all the different pigs they raise.

01:58:37.000 And they're petting the pigs and talking about the different parts that are going to be delicious.

01:58:41.000 And it's kind of weird because you're like, well, you're petting that thing and you're going to kill it.

01:58:46.000 But is it...

01:58:48.000 Is it better that way?

01:58:49.000 Is it better that way to be nice to them until you decide to be really mean?

01:58:53.000 Yeah, I mean, it's probably one of those things that as we develop synthetic meat, we're probably going to move away.

01:59:03.000 Well, they're really close to doing that.

01:59:05.000 Some guy in London or England has done it, right?

01:59:09.000 He's figured out how to do it.

01:59:11.000 He made the first hamburger or something like that.

01:59:12.000 I don't know.

01:59:13.000 I don't know where they have, but I do know that they're capable of doing things now where they can reproduce cells and they can reproduce certain types of tissue.

01:59:23.000 Like Kurzweil was telling me about this woman who had something wrong with her esophagus. 0.93

01:59:29.000 So they built an esophagus out of biodegradable material, used stem cells.

01:59:36.000 And you use the biodegradable material as a scaffolding.

01:59:39.000 The stem cells built a brand new esophagus, and the operator and her installed the new one, and now she's fine.

01:59:47.000 And that's like they're making parts for humans.

01:59:50.000 So it just seems to make sense that they're going to make meat.

01:59:55.000 I don't know how I feel about that, Cynthia.

01:59:59.000 Yeah, maybe vegans will eat a fake steak. 0.96

02:00:02.000 Maybe they're down with that.

02:00:03.000 That would be the best thing for them.

02:00:04.000 Delicious and karma-free.

02:00:06.000 A nice karma-free cheeseburger.

02:00:09.000 That would be awesome.

02:00:11.000 I think that's inevitable.

02:00:13.000 It's coming.

02:00:15.000 You're talking about doing it with humans.

02:00:17.000 They're talking about developing parts that are completely artificial.

02:00:21.000 Completely artificial cells that interact with your cells with no immune response.

02:00:26.000 They're talking about these things being An inevitability of the future.

02:00:30.000 It's not science fiction.

02:00:31.000 In fact, it's all based on proven research and there's proof of concepts already available.

02:00:38.000 And it just seems to make sense they're going to have a fake chicken.

02:00:41.000 A fake headless chicken running around just waiting for you to eat it.

02:00:44.000 Breasts and... 0.99

02:00:45.000 Legs.

02:00:46.000 Doesn't know what's going on. 0.99

02:00:48.000 Literally has no brain. 1.00

02:00:49.000 It's not that they're stupid. 1.00

02:00:50.000 They have zero brain. 1.00

02:00:51.000 Because every chicken's stupid. 1.00

02:00:53.000 But this would be like... 1.00

02:00:55.000 There's nothing going on.

02:00:56.000 You don't have to worry at all. 1.00

02:00:57.000 Just pick it up and kill it. 1.00

02:00:59.000 You're not even killing it. 1.00

02:01:00.000 It's not even a lie.

02:01:01.000 Featherless?

02:01:02.000 It's like all the annoying things that you do when you...

02:01:04.000 Yeah.

02:01:05.000 We've actually had to kill a chicken.

02:01:07.000 But...

02:01:08.000 In Colombia.

02:01:09.000 That was...

02:01:10.000 It's not a pretty process.

02:01:11.000 Taking the feathers off a chicken.

02:01:13.000 And it seems to me that the real thing about killing an animal and eating an animal is the fact that it's not just that it's alive, because vegetables are alive as well.

02:01:24.000 It's the fact that it's alive and it can move and feel pain.

02:01:28.000 And feel pain, yeah.

02:01:29.000 But if you take away the whole feel pain part, and it can't think, and just headless chickens, like you gotta, you know, you have some new sort of a way to make the heart beat without a brain. 1.00

02:01:41.000 Just really fucking stupid headless chickens. 1.00

02:01:44.000 Vegans still wouldn't go for it because they don't eat eggs. 1.00

02:01:47.000 And I have chickens, and the chickens lay an egg every day, and you can eat the eggs and no one gets hurt.

02:01:52.000 But vegans are still not down with that.

02:01:53.000 No, they're not.

02:01:54.000 But that's how far removed...

02:01:57.000 We are from the farm is that I only found out that chickens lay an egg a day like two years ago.

02:02:02.000 Yeah, it's true.

02:02:03.000 I had no idea.

02:02:04.000 Well, I only found out a year ago that an egg doesn't become a chicken.

02:02:10.000 I thought that an egg became a chicken and you eat them before it happens.

02:02:14.000 But no, it's a hen lays an egg, whether the rooster's involved or not.

02:02:19.000 But if the rooster's in the house, then the chicken can get pregnant and then the egg can become a chick. 0.58

02:02:25.000 But if there's no rooster...

02:02:27.000 Wow, I didn't know that.

02:02:27.000 See?

02:02:28.000 Most people don't know that.

02:02:29.000 Wow, I had no idea.

02:02:30.000 It's amazing how removed we are from the whole process of food.

02:02:34.000 So there's no life there?

02:02:35.000 No life at all.

02:02:36.000 Zero.

02:02:36.000 Zero life.

02:02:37.000 Zero threat of life.

02:02:38.000 Impossible to make life.

02:02:40.000 And in fact, if you don't eat the egg, then the chickens will probably eat their own eggs and go crazy. 1.00

02:02:45.000 They'll become fucking cannibals or something. 1.00

02:02:48.000 I don't know. 1.00

02:02:48.000 They do eat their own eggs if you leave them in too long. 1.00

02:02:51.000 Yeah, for vegans, though, the problem is not that they're eating the egg because there would be life in the egg.

02:02:56.000 It's because you're eating an egg that comes from a chicken that is probably being abused in order to produce these eggs.

02:03:01.000 Sure.

02:03:01.000 That's, I think, the thinking behind it.

02:03:02.000 But you could have it the way I have it, where my chickens live on a full...

02:03:06.000 They have a full-acre lawn, and they go inside the chicken coop at night, which is huge.

02:03:11.000 And we set it up like...

02:03:13.000 We wanted to make it as nice as possible.

02:03:15.000 Super humane, really big place.

02:03:17.000 Like, the chicken coop itself is bigger than the studio.

02:03:20.000 Where I have 14 chickens and they just go in whenever they want at night and we shut the door and lock it down.

02:03:26.000 So you get 14 eggs a day?

02:03:27.000 Yeah.

02:03:28.000 What do you do with them?

02:03:28.000 I eat them.

02:03:29.000 All 14?

02:03:30.000 They're delicious.

02:03:30.000 I don't eat them all.

02:03:31.000 I'm a whole family.

02:03:32.000 But I give them to friends if they want them to.

02:03:35.000 They just started laying the eggs recently.

02:03:37.000 But yeah, we had people over this weekend, and we gave them some fresh eggs.

02:03:40.000 They taste delicious, too.

02:03:42.000 Because we give the chickens vegetables.

02:03:44.000 We buy vegetables.

02:03:45.000 I make kale shakes pretty much every morning, and it's cucumbers, and kale, and celery, and fruit, and stuff like that.

02:03:52.000 So a lot of times, you have leftover stuff, leftover kale, and we feed them that, and then we feed them chicken feed, and they wander around the lawn, and they basically eat anything they find.

02:04:01.000 They try to eat your house. 1.00

02:04:02.000 They're stupid as shit. 1.00

02:04:03.000 They peck at your house. 1.00

02:04:04.000 They're like, hmm, maybe this house is edible.

02:04:06.000 They're just checking everything for food.

02:04:08.000 But they've become like our pets.

02:04:10.000 They're not chickens that we're eating.

02:04:12.000 We're just getting eggs out of them.

02:04:14.000 But it's amazing how much you get out of them.

02:04:17.000 They give you food.

02:04:18.000 And that food is based entirely on food that you give them.

02:04:21.000 So it's this process.

02:04:23.000 It's like a natural, healthy cycle.

02:04:25.000 And nobody gets hurt.

02:04:26.000 They're happy when they see you.

02:04:28.000 There's no cruelty involved.

02:04:29.000 So for me, it's like I just started doing this really recently where we started growing our own vegetables and raising our own chickens.

02:04:36.000 And not as like a doom-day prepper sort of a thing, but just as like, let's see what this is like.

02:04:42.000 My wife super got into it. 1.00

02:04:43.000 So it's been really fun.

02:04:44.000 It's been kind of cool.

02:04:45.000 What vegetables do you grow?

02:04:46.000 All sorts.

02:04:47.000 We grow hot peppers, we grow cucumbers, we grow tomatoes, we grow squash, we grow a lot of different things that you can eat.

02:04:56.000 Kale?

02:04:56.000 We haven't started doing that yet, but that's the next step.

02:05:00.000 Kale, we're trying to move our little garden to a new spot, and we have this new area we're going to set up.

02:05:06.000 It gives a lot of sunlight.

02:05:08.000 And the idea is to just...

02:05:09.000 The best idea, I think, would be completely self-sustaining.

02:05:12.000 We're going to go solar power too, but one of the things we found out is like, solar doesn't help you if the power goes out.

02:05:18.000 You still need a generator. 0.99

02:05:19.000 And I was like, that's stupid. 1.00

02:05:21.000 That's so dumb. 1.00

02:05:23.000 Like, how is that possible? 0.99

02:05:24.000 Like, the guy explained to me at the solar place, I go, so if the power goes out, we're still up.

02:05:28.000 He goes, no, I actually have to have a generator.

02:05:30.000 And I go, what?

02:05:31.000 What are you talking about?

02:05:32.000 What does that mean?

02:05:33.000 It doesn't make any sense.

02:05:34.000 Like, somehow or another, there's got to be a way to have a completely standalone system.

02:05:40.000 But it's not that easy.

02:05:42.000 I think you have to have some sort of...

02:05:43.000 Because your house is still connected to the grid?

02:05:45.000 Is that...

02:05:46.000 Maybe.

02:05:47.000 Could be.

02:05:47.000 I mean, maybe completely removed from the grid.

02:05:50.000 So you just want to be completely removed from the grid?

02:05:52.000 Oh, yeah.

02:05:53.000 I would think that would be the smartest thing that anybody could do.

02:05:55.000 So maybe you are a doomsday prepper.

02:05:56.000 No, it's not that I'm a doomsday prepper.

02:05:58.000 It's that, like, I think to be self-sustainable would be...

02:06:01.000 Ultimately, what I want to do...

02:06:03.000 These are my beginning steps.

02:06:04.000 Ultimately, what I want to do is get a bunch of friends involved and buy a piece of land, build houses, and have a farm on it.

02:06:10.000 Not a cult.

02:06:11.000 Just get, like, a few couples.

02:06:13.000 Sounds a little culty.

02:06:14.000 A little culty.

02:06:14.000 Everything I do is a little culty.

02:06:16.000 But I do it.

02:06:17.000 It's a fine dance.

02:06:18.000 But my idea is to have a large plot of land, you know, like several hundred acres with a few families.

02:06:27.000 And everyone sort of have this big space that's their own.

02:06:32.000 And we share in like a community farm.

02:06:35.000 And that everyone gets their food from there.

02:06:37.000 That way...

02:06:37.000 See, one of the weird things about neighborhoods is that you don't pick them.

02:06:41.000 You sort of just...

02:06:42.000 You pick where your neighborhood is, of course, if you can, if you have that freedom, but you don't really pick your neighbors.

02:06:48.000 They're there when you...

02:06:49.000 We like this house.

02:06:50.000 We like, you know, Manhattan Beach.

02:06:52.000 Let's move in.

02:06:53.000 And then you're moving in around a bunch of people that you don't even know.

02:06:56.000 Whereas the whole idea of community and culture and tribes used to be that we lived near all of our loved ones.

02:07:03.000 We had them all together.

02:07:04.000 We don't do that anymore.

02:07:05.000 Yeah.

02:07:23.000 Well, I've actually, we've actually sat down, our family sat down with a couple other families that we really like, and we actually started talking about doing that.

02:07:30.000 And we've decided to make some, have some meetings, have some dinners, where we meet and discuss the idea.

02:07:39.000 And look at like various locations, whether or not it'd be feasible with, you know, all the people that are, they all have sort of alternative entertainment type jobs, like comedians and writers and stuff like that.

02:07:48.000 And so we're all just singing like, What an awesome community that would be.

02:07:51.000 To live in a place where you're in a town, where there's a good town, like a healthy place with a city that's close by, but set up an establishment where you could grow your own food.

02:08:03.000 So you don't have to worry, like, is this organic?

02:08:05.000 Are these grass-raised?

02:08:07.000 Is this farm healthy and clean?

02:08:10.000 It's your own farm.

02:08:11.000 And it wouldn't be hard to do.

02:08:13.000 And if you think about how much money you spend on food every year, It seems to me that if you have quite a few people hiring some really competent, nice people to run a farm for you, well, people would appreciate a good job where they work for nice people and everybody's ethical about the whole situation and how everything's done and fair,

02:08:32.000 and you set up a nice little community farm.

02:08:35.000 I don't think that that's impossible.

02:08:37.000 It doesn't seem like a big dream.

02:08:39.000 It seems like something that's entirely doable.

02:08:41.000 And a new reality show.

02:08:45.000 Yeah, that's where it all goes awry.

02:08:48.000 So you don't need to get the lottery, to win the lottery, I guess.

02:08:51.000 Well, it seems like you're going to need some money for sure.

02:08:54.000 You need some money to set up almost anything, but the real problem would be you'd have to You'd have to get permits to build houses, or you'd have to buy a bunch of houses together, which is even more ridiculous.

02:09:07.000 How are you going to pull that off?

02:09:08.000 That would be hard.

02:09:09.000 But I just think that ultimately that seems like it would be the ideal situation to get all of your food that way.

02:09:17.000 Not all of it. 0.54

02:09:17.000 I mean, you still go to the supermarket and buy mayonnaise and some shit you don't want to sit around making yourself, but... 0.54

02:09:23.000 How beautiful would it be to not worry? 0.94

02:09:25.000 Like, okay, the power goes out.

02:09:27.000 Well, guess what?

02:09:28.000 We have power.

02:09:29.000 Okay, the supermarkets are empty.

02:09:31.000 We have a farm.

02:09:32.000 We get all of our food from this area.

02:09:35.000 Then you just have to worry about the other people.

02:09:37.000 Yeah. 1.00

02:09:38.000 The shit hits the fan. 1.00

02:09:39.000 Yeah, exactly. 1.00

02:09:40.000 That's where the problems start.

02:09:41.000 Try to steal your crops.

02:09:42.000 Well, we took this to a doomsday place again.

02:09:44.000 That's what I do.

02:09:45.000 Yes, you did.

02:09:46.000 Try to stay positive.

02:09:47.000 That's why we need our guns.

02:09:49.000 Six episodes.

02:09:50.000 So any other interesting topics?

02:09:52.000 We did one about homeless youth where we actually spent a lot of time with young people who are homeless here in Los Angeles and we spent a couple of nights sleeping under the bridge.

02:10:01.000 Oh my god, you did?

02:10:04.000 Yeah, we did.

02:10:05.000 Both of you together?

02:10:06.000 Yeah, I mean, you live in LA, you know, it's like, you know, driving downtown or Hollywood and you see all these homeless, you know, kids and sometimes adults.

02:10:14.000 Did you guys go to Skid Row?

02:10:16.000 So we went to Skid Row.

02:10:17.000 It starts off in Skid Row.

02:10:19.000 Explain that place for people who don't know.

02:10:22.000 So Skid Row is the largest homeless community in the nation.

02:10:26.000 It's, I mean, thousands and thousands of homeless people.

02:10:30.000 Yeah, it is.

02:10:30.000 I mean, it's sleeping on the streets in tents.

02:10:32.000 And, you know, they've tried various times to clean it up.

02:10:36.000 But it's, you know...

02:10:38.000 There's a lot of issues there.

02:10:39.000 It's like, where are you going to house them?

02:10:41.000 There's a lot of housing, and there is a lot of shelters down there, but not enough to sort of meet the demand of how many homeless people are actually down there.

02:10:50.000 And so if you go down there, day or night, you'll see hundreds, if not thousands of people walking in the streets with their carts, and it's just another side of the city that...

02:11:04.000 You know, it's actually right next to the Arch District downtown, and so it's sort of, you've run across it here and there if you're living in L.A., but it's definitely an eye-opening experience to walk down there because there's a whole ecosystem down there that sort of It caters to – caters is probably not the right word,

02:11:26.000 but that supports the homeless down there from clinics and shelters and stuff like that to obviously drug dealers and gangs that sort of run the territory down there.

02:11:41.000 Because, as the activists who we follow down there told us, you know, it's not just the homeless community.

02:11:48.000 It's probably the largest concentration of addicts in the country as well.

02:11:52.000 Because most people, obviously, if you're living on the streets, you're either dealing with the mental health issue or some sort of addiction or both.

02:12:00.000 So, yeah, that was crazy.

02:12:04.000 It was fairly eye-opening, I'm sure, to see the population, right?

02:12:08.000 It was.

02:12:09.000 And the idea is that if you're sort of above 35 and you're homeless, you're on Skid Row.

02:12:14.000 If you're under 35 and you're homeless, you're in Hollywood.

02:12:17.000 And that's even more sort of surprising because you think of Hollywood, you think of the Walk of Fame, right?

02:12:22.000 You think of all the stars.

02:12:24.000 Celebrities.

02:12:25.000 And then, you know, for us who live here in LA and we drive by Hollywood every day and you see all those homeless kids every day and you know that they're sleeping out on the streets.

02:12:32.000 And this, again, because of mental health issues or addiction or just because they come from broke down families and have nowhere to sleep, which was some of the cases of the people that we filmed.

02:12:42.000 And so we decided it was, you know, sort of important if we were really going to dive deeper into this issue to spend the night with them, with two of the people that we were filming. 0.98

02:12:51.000 Damn. 0.98

02:12:51.000 I would have faked it. 0.98

02:12:52.000 I would have did it just like that dude, not Survivorman, who's real, Les Stroud.

02:12:56.000 Who's that other guy?

02:12:57.000 The fake guy.

02:12:59.000 Oh, who's the fake?

02:12:59.000 The English dude.

02:13:00.000 Handsome bastard. 0.99

02:13:01.000 Bear Grylls? 1.00

02:13:02.000 Bear Grylls, yeah.

02:13:03.000 Does he fake it?

02:13:03.000 Oh, yeah.

02:13:04.000 He sleeps in hotels.

02:13:05.000 Does he really?

02:13:05.000 No, he does not.

02:13:06.000 Oh, yes, he does.

02:13:07.000 Oh, yes, he does.

02:13:08.000 He got busted.

02:13:09.000 No way.

02:13:09.000 Yes, he did.

02:13:10.000 Yes.

02:13:10.000 What I like is that when he...

02:13:12.000 I can't really do it.

02:13:13.000 Well, go ahead.

02:13:14.000 I like that you always say, and now I'm here in the middle of nowhere.

02:13:18.000 You can't see.

02:13:19.000 And you know that there's like a big camera equipment and a camera guy and everything filming him.

02:13:22.000 Well, that's one of the beautiful things about Les Stroud.

02:13:24.000 There's nothing but him.

02:13:26.000 He brings cameras and a backpack.

02:13:27.000 He does everything himself.

02:13:29.000 He sets up the cameras.

02:13:30.000 He even has videos of him setting up the cameras so you can see him.

02:13:33.000 When he walks off, like he'll walk 100 yards in the distance and film it, he has to go back and get the camera.

02:13:38.000 Yeah.

02:13:38.000 And then take it and put it 100 yards forward and have him walking towards it.

02:13:44.000 He sets everything up himself.

02:13:45.000 It's very time consuming.

02:13:46.000 What's the name of that show?

02:13:47.000 Survivor Man.

02:13:48.000 Survivor Man is the real one.

02:13:49.000 The other one...

02:13:51.000 Man Against... 1.00

02:13:52.000 Whatever the fuck it is. 0.99

02:13:53.000 Man Against Wild. 1.00

02:13:54.000 Total horse shit. 1.00

02:13:55.000 And the reason why that show was created was because Les Stroud wouldn't play ball with producers and set up fake shots. 1.00

02:14:02.000 They wanted to like, oh, Les stumbled upon this dead animal.

02:14:05.000 This is how you, you know, fix this dead animal so you could eat it.

02:14:08.000 This is how you cure meat or cut it up.

02:14:11.000 Bear Grylls does all that stuff.

02:14:12.000 So he's like, you know, he would do it. 1.00

02:14:14.000 He would fudge shit. 0.99

02:14:14.000 And Les Stroud said the only way to do this is to do it real. 0.99

02:14:18.000 So he like...

02:14:19.000 We'll starve.

02:14:20.000 He'll be out there for five days with no food and really freaking out and not knowing whether or not he's going to get out of there and trying to figure out how to alert the crew and how to start a fire when it's raining out.

02:14:30.000 All that stuff is real.

02:14:31.000 When you watch that show, he deals 100% real, which is so fascinating. 0.93

02:14:36.000 When the people found out about the other show, the Barrel Grill show, they were like, get the fuck out. 0.98

02:14:41.000 The guy sleeps in tents. 0.98

02:14:42.000 No, come on, man.

02:14:43.000 He's out there for real.

02:14:45.000 Hotels?

02:14:46.000 Really?

02:14:47.000 Hotels?

02:14:47.000 He really is in a Four Seasons.

02:14:49.000 Oh, man.

02:14:50.000 Like, he's pretending he's covered in mud.

02:14:52.000 To keep the flies off your face, you gotta smother your face in mud.

02:14:55.000 No, no mud, dude.

02:14:57.000 He's in a mud mask.

02:14:58.000 He's getting his feet massaged.

02:15:00.000 I mean, I knew there was some fakeness to it, but that much, I had no idea. 0.99

02:15:03.000 It's fake as fuck. 1.00

02:15:04.000 It's totally fake. 1.00

02:15:06.000 You know, like, there's one, he found, like, a dead sheep, and he, like, turned the sheep, like, made clothing out of it.

02:15:12.000 So when he drinks his own piss, that's not true either?

02:15:13.000 That's probably fake, too.

02:15:14.000 I mean, I don't know.

02:15:16.000 I would assume he's not drinking his own piss. 0.51

02:15:17.000 I mean, if you're going to fake everything else, why wouldn't you fake drinking your own piss?

02:15:21.000 I hate to admit this.

02:15:22.000 I draw the line.

02:15:23.000 I'm drinking my own piss.

02:15:24.000 I've drank my own piss before.

02:15:25.000 Why?

02:15:26.000 Well, because someone told me that there's a thing called urine therapy. 0.56

02:15:30.000 And I don't care how you said that.

02:15:31.000 Why?

02:15:32.000 Like, this is a person who has covered investigative journalism for her whole life.

02:15:35.000 She's seen horrific things.

02:15:37.000 She's been to the Oxycontin center of the world.

02:15:40.000 I tell her I drank my own pee.

02:15:41.000 Why?

02:15:42.000 Just immediately, like, what is wrong with you?

02:15:46.000 Can I leave now?

02:15:47.000 Several athletes have thought that it's a good thing to do.

02:15:52.000 That somehow or another you get vitamins that pass through your body and then you recycle them into your urine and that your urine is sterile and it's not nothing to worry about and there's actually antibodies in your urine.

02:16:02.000 It's very controversial.

02:16:03.000 But I had done it to see if there's anything to it.

02:16:06.000 Like when I was sick, I drank my own pee a couple times and I don't know whether it helped me or not.

02:16:10.000 Room temperature?

02:16:11.000 Body temperature?

02:16:12.000 Right out of the hatch.

02:16:12.000 Really?

02:16:13.000 Right into a cup and down the old pipe.

02:16:16.000 I don't recommend it, first of all.

02:16:18.000 I want to be really clear.

02:16:18.000 And I don't do it all the time.

02:16:20.000 I've done it a few times.

02:16:21.000 Once on the radio.

02:16:22.000 Because I'm not squeamish.

02:16:24.000 I hosted Fear Factor for six years.

02:16:26.000 I know what's bad and what's not.

02:16:29.000 And drinking your own urine, even if it's terrible, it's no big deal. 1.00

02:16:31.000 Compared to some of the shit that I've seen. 1.00

02:16:34.000 I've seen face-to-face people eat horrific things. 1.00

02:16:37.000 And not just once.

02:16:38.000 I've seen it hundreds of times.

02:16:41.000 So it's like, for me, drinking my own pee.

02:16:43.000 Oh, God. 1.00

02:16:44.000 Animal dicks. 1.00

02:16:45.000 Urine. 1.00

02:16:46.000 24 ounces of donkey cum. 1.00

02:16:47.000 I saw people drink donkey semen. 0.99

02:16:49.000 That was what got the show canceled, actually. 0.99

02:16:52.000 They had to drink donkey semen, and TMZ got a hold of the video. 0.92

02:16:56.000 Yeah. 0.91

02:16:57.000 It got online before the show aired, and then NBC pulled the episode first and then canceled the whole show.

02:17:05.000 I had no idea.

02:17:06.000 Yeah, that was the second run season of Fear Factor.

02:17:09.000 The video's online.

02:17:09.000 How far can we take it?

02:17:11.000 Yeah, exactly.

02:17:11.000 That's about as far as you take it.

02:17:12.000 Well, that's the thing is that...

02:17:14.000 That was approved by the network.

02:17:16.000 That's the most fascinating aspect of it.

02:17:17.000 And when I say by the network, I should not say by the network.

02:17:20.000 I should say some executive that decided for the network.

02:17:24.000 That's what I should say.

02:17:25.000 Whether or not it represents the corporation of NBC as a whole.

02:17:28.000 I think that would be misjudging it because they pulled it when they found out about it. 0.98

02:17:31.000 But someone thought it would be a brilliant idea to make people drink cum. 0.95

02:17:35.000 You know, they say like, oh, it seems reasonable. 0.90

02:17:38.000 And the four contestants drank it?

02:17:40.000 Oh yes, not just one.

02:17:41.000 Three people drank it.

02:17:43.000 It was twins and three groups of twins.

02:17:46.000 The video is actually available online.

02:17:49.000 You can still get it because in other countries they didn't censor it.

02:17:52.000 Fear Factor airs more than a dozen countries worldwide.

02:17:56.000 In other countries that's customary though.

02:17:59.000 That's actually one of the ways that we got it passed.

02:18:01.000 Oh, really?

02:18:02.000 I was just kidding.

02:18:03.000 New Zealand.

02:18:05.000 One of the things about Fear Factor is, especially during the first season, if we aired people eating things, it had to be something that people ate in other countries.

02:18:17.000 So, like, insects are very common.

02:18:18.000 People in poor countries eat insects all the time.

02:18:21.000 In fact, insects are probably eaten more than livestock in a lot of countries.

02:18:26.000 So that was an easy one.

02:18:27.000 We could prove that. 0.97

02:18:28.000 And then in New Zealand, they started selling shots of horse semen at bars. 0.79

02:18:34.000 Like, it was a novelty. 0.91

02:18:36.000 And people would, you know, mosey up to the bar and buy a shot of horse semen.

02:18:40.000 And apparently they said it gave them energy and all sorts of crazy things were attributed to it.

02:18:44.000 Most likely placebo effect.

02:18:46.000 I don't know.

02:18:47.000 You better have a good story afterwards.

02:18:50.000 You got to justify it somehow.

02:18:51.000 Sure.

02:18:51.000 Somehow or another, you gotta say, listen, I know it seems crazy, but I feel awesome.

02:18:57.000 You're probably so freaked out that you drank horse cum, you don't know what's going on in your body. 1.00

02:19:01.000 Your fingers are tingling, you can't feel your feet, you don't know what the fuck you just did. 0.99

02:19:05.000 So because of that, NBC said, well, the people are serving it, and we brought them a news story. 0.99

02:19:11.000 Not we, it was not my idea, I should stress that. 0.97

02:19:14.000 And so that allowed them to sign off on people drinking 24 ounces of donkey cum. 0.98

02:19:21.000 24 ounces. 0.99

02:19:22.000 Yeah, it was ridiculous.

02:19:23.000 Not only that, how about the contestants at least had a shot at winning some money, but we had PAs drink it, and they only did it because it was part of their job. 0.62

02:19:33.000 Just the best of them.

02:19:34.000 They got like a hundred bucks.

02:19:35.000 No, no, no.

02:19:35.000 Why?

02:19:35.000 To see if it could be done.

02:19:37.000 Whenever we did a stunt on Fear Factor, there was several times where we'd look at a stunt, whether it was a physical task or whether it was someone eating something.

02:19:47.000 We had to figure out what's the correct amount and whether or not physically a task could be completed.

02:19:54.000 So the physical aspect was handled by stuntmen, first of all, who would look at it and say, well, you shouldn't do it that way because I don't think a guy could do that.

02:20:02.000 And if he does do that, he's probably going to hurt himself in this way or that way.

02:20:05.000 And then with the eating thing, it's really the only way to find out.

02:20:08.000 You've got to, like, how many bugs can a person eat?

02:20:11.000 Hmm, let's see.

02:20:12.000 Okay, we'll try to get a PA to eat 10. And then the PA would have, like, 10 minutes to eat 10 bugs. 0.91

02:20:17.000 And they'd be, like, three bugs in, just hurling.

02:20:20.000 And you're like, okay, this is too much.

02:20:21.000 Let's cut it down to five.

02:20:23.000 You know, we'd have to make it some sort of a reasonable amount.

02:20:25.000 So you'd have to have more than one PA because you want to have a control group. 0.57

02:20:28.000 So you have a few PAs.

02:20:30.000 And I hope you pay them really well.

02:20:31.000 I would give them extra money.

02:20:33.000 I would give them extra money all the time, especially the horrific ones.

02:20:35.000 I don't remember how many dollars I gave.

02:20:37.000 It was several hundred dollars I gave one of the extra PAs.

02:20:40.000 But that's nothing.

02:20:40.000 Several hundred dollars.

02:20:41.000 What the fuck, man? 1.00

02:20:41.000 He just drank cum. 1.00

02:20:43.000 You know? 0.99

02:20:44.000 What's really...

02:20:45.000 I'm just making a note here that next time a PA complains to us, I think we should tell them about Fear Factor. 0.93

02:20:50.000 Yeah, being a PA sucks for a lot of places.

02:20:54.000 I mean, sometimes it's cool, but for the most part, not good. 0.96

02:20:58.000 We ate.

02:20:58.000 We were offered, actually.

02:20:59.000 We didn't eat.

02:21:00.000 We were offered monkey brain in the Amazon at that time, remember?

02:21:04.000 It wasn't the brain.

02:21:06.000 It wasn't the brain. 0.92

02:21:08.000 It was just monkey brain. 0.87

02:21:08.000 No, it was a monkey head. 0.87

02:21:10.000 He cut off the monkey.

02:21:11.000 Well, the head was there.

02:21:12.000 I don't know.

02:21:12.000 And then what was it that you ate that I hated that had all those hairs?

02:21:16.000 The little hairs?

02:21:18.000 The armadillo of the Amazon, the tattoo?

02:21:20.000 The tattoo.

02:21:22.000 It's an armadillo?

02:21:23.000 Yeah, it's like an Amazonian armadillo.

02:21:26.000 How do you spell tattoo?

02:21:27.000 T-A-T-U? No, I think it's tattoo.

02:21:31.000 T-A-T-T-U, maybe?

02:21:33.000 It's Portuguese.

02:21:34.000 I should know this, but I don't.

02:21:35.000 Yeah, you should.

02:21:36.000 What's up?

02:21:37.000 Wait, wait, I'm from Portugal.

02:21:38.000 We don't have tattoos in my country.

02:21:40.000 Oh, but is the Brazilian Portuguese the same?

02:21:43.000 It's the same language.

02:21:44.000 They say everything?

02:21:45.000 Different accent, yes.

02:21:46.000 Like you don't, there's nothing, no confusion?

02:21:49.000 Some words here and there are different, but not English and American.

02:21:52.000 I went to tattoo and it's all...

02:21:54.000 Here it is, here it is.

02:21:54.000 This is what Darren ate.

02:21:55.000 Yeah, there it is.

02:21:56.000 Whoa.

02:21:57.000 It's an ugly looking thing, right?

02:21:58.000 How do you spell that?

02:21:59.000 It tastes like it looks.

02:22:00.000 It tastes like it looks.

02:22:01.000 T-A-T-U. Wow.

02:22:04.000 Armadillo.

02:22:04.000 What a creepy looking thing.

02:22:06.000 It was awful.

02:22:07.000 It tasted, I mean, worse than it looks like. 0.97

02:22:09.000 There's also a Russian music duo of these sexpot Russians called Tattoo. 0.99

02:22:15.000 T-A-T-U. And there's all these pictures of them naked, making out, touching each other's boobs. 1.00

02:22:20.000 Is that what you're looking at right now? 0.95

02:22:20.000 Yeah, I didn't mean to. 0.95

02:22:22.000 But the thing is that I remember when we ate the meat, the hair is still there.

02:22:26.000 So they sort of burn.

02:22:27.000 They don't take the hair. 0.97

02:22:28.000 So it's slightly burned from the barbecuing of the meat.

02:22:30.000 That's it?

02:22:31.000 And you can still taste it.

02:22:32.000 And it tastes awful.

02:22:33.000 It really does.

02:22:33.000 But they love it.

02:22:34.000 It's a delicacy there.

02:22:35.000 Do they love it?

02:22:35.000 They did.

02:22:36.000 They did.

02:22:37.000 What does it taste like?

02:22:38.000 It just tastes terrible.

02:22:39.000 It tastes like...

02:22:41.000 What's that?

02:22:43.000 Oh, man.

02:22:43.000 What's that stuff?

02:22:45.000 Tripe.

02:22:46.000 Tripe.

02:22:47.000 Tripe.

02:22:47.000 Oh, I like tripe.

02:22:48.000 Really?

02:22:48.000 Oh.

02:22:48.000 Yeah.

02:22:49.000 I like menudo.

02:22:53.000 I like menudo.

02:22:54.000 I like tripe and menudo and organs and all that stuff.

02:22:56.000 It's a little gamier.

02:22:58.000 There's a place in Boulder, Colorado called Papusas.

02:23:01.000 Man, we used to go there all the time.

02:23:03.000 If you're in Boulder, I guess it's not Mexican. 1.00

02:23:06.000 It's Spanish food.

02:23:08.000 Maybe it is Mexican. 1.00

02:23:09.000 Papusas, though, they have the most sensational menudo.

02:23:13.000 It's amazing.

02:23:13.000 It's all hearts and organs and liver and tripe.

02:23:17.000 Sounds terrible.

02:23:18.000 I like that stuff.

02:23:19.000 It's fantastic.

02:23:19.000 Yeah.

02:23:19.000 I love all that stuff.

02:23:21.000 Super legit.

02:23:22.000 Yeah.

02:23:22.000 Like that with this one place.

02:23:23.000 It's like so good.

02:23:24.000 It's spicy and like, oh.

02:23:26.000 They say it's a hangover cure.

02:23:28.000 I think it's just so good you forget the fact that you're hungover.

02:23:30.000 Right.

02:23:31.000 But I've had it in other places and it's nasty. 1.00

02:23:33.000 Like I had it in other places in LA and it tastes like shit. 1.00

02:23:35.000 Yeah. 0.99

02:23:36.000 It's all about doing it right. 1.00

02:23:37.000 This definitely tasted like shit. 1.00

02:23:38.000 It wasn't good. 1.00

02:23:40.000 I've had menudo and maybe it's not a fair comparison.

02:23:43.000 Well, if you live in the middle of the Amazon...

02:23:45.000 You're going to eat what's there, right?

02:23:47.000 Do they eat those capybaras, those crazy big rat things? 0.98

02:23:51.000 Do they eat those things? 0.96

02:23:52.000 They must.

02:23:53.000 I mean, it must.

02:23:54.000 We saw a couple.

02:23:55.000 We didn't see them being eaten, but we saw the capybaras everywhere. 1.00

02:23:57.000 I think anything is open.

02:24:00.000 It's open season for whatever's there if you actually need to survive there. 1.00

02:24:05.000 Yeah, they eat crazy shit. 1.00

02:24:07.000 Do they eat jaguars? 1.00

02:24:09.000 Well, probably not.

02:24:13.000 They're actually really hard to see.

02:24:15.000 I think most people that come in contact with them, it's too late.

02:24:20.000 It's too late, yeah.

02:24:21.000 They're like really stealth predators.

02:24:23.000 You know, I was almost attacked by a jaguar.

02:24:25.000 Really?

02:24:25.000 Yeah.

02:24:27.000 So we went to do the story on the cambo frog looking for the pharmaceutical promise of the Amazon.

02:24:33.000 And we went in with two herpetologists.

02:24:35.000 These are guys who study poisonous amphibians and snakes.

02:24:39.000 And they go out every month.

02:24:40.000 They go out for a week at a time and they go deep, deep, deep into the Amazon.

02:24:44.000 I mean, they take a canoe deep inside where there's nothing around.

02:24:48.000 And they said that after much haggling, they decided that they were going to take these two gringos along with them, me and Darren.

02:24:54.000 And we are camped out in the middle of nowhere.

02:24:57.000 There's nothing.

02:24:57.000 We bought a couple of hammocks.

02:25:01.000 We hung them as soon as we got there.

02:25:03.000 And then at night, they go out with these lights, with these headlamps to look for the most dangerous and most venomous snakes and frogs there are in the world in the middle of the Amazon.

02:25:14.000 It was a crazy, crazy experience.

02:25:15.000 But for some reason, because we were filming it, we were on this high of filming this documentary and how cool it would be if we found the most dangerous thing in the world.

02:25:23.000 For us, we didn't feel scared and we thought it was great.

02:25:27.000 We were filming all this crazy stuff.

02:25:29.000 We got back to the hammocks at night and I'm sleeping on the edge because they decided they wanted to give me a little privacy.

02:25:35.000 So it was a sort of like little wooden camp thing.

02:25:39.000 No walls, no roof, nothing.

02:25:40.000 Just these hammocks.

02:25:42.000 And I was on the last hammock right on the edge.

02:25:44.000 And in the middle of the night, I woke up.

02:25:46.000 Nobody told me that in the Amazon it gets really cold at night, so we had nothing to protect us.

02:25:49.000 And we had these mosquito nets.

02:25:51.000 In the middle of the night, I woke up because I was freezing, and then I heard...

02:25:56.000 And we've been talking about all these stories.

02:25:58.000 They've been telling us all these stories on the onsa.

02:26:01.000 They call it the onsa there, and how it's the most dangerous animal in the Amazon.

02:26:05.000 And suddenly I start hearing it, breathing right next to my head.

02:26:09.000 And it was breathing, and it was breathing really hard, and I could smell it.

02:26:12.000 I could smell it.

02:26:14.000 A big, hairy, scary creature breathing right next to me.

02:26:19.000 And I had one of those.

02:26:20.000 You know when you have those dreams and you try to scream and nothing comes out?

02:26:23.000 That happened to me.

02:26:24.000 I panicked and I was trying to call out for Darren or for the other guys and nothing came out.

02:26:29.000 I was literally frozen, panicked.

02:26:32.000 And Darren woke up with my breathing because I was...

02:26:36.000 Breathing really heavily and really scared.

02:26:39.000 And he asked me, are you okay?

02:26:40.000 And I was able to get out just, no!

02:26:42.000 And Darren comes up to me and I told him I was about to be attacked by an ulcer, by a jaguar.

02:26:53.000 And we went around the camp with the lights just so I could see that there was nothing there.

02:26:57.000 Morning after, wake up.

02:26:58.000 I look at my bag and it was full of hair.

02:27:01.000 Full of hair.

02:27:03.000 And I said, I told you, I knew it, I knew it.

02:27:05.000 And I told the scientists that were with us, you know, I saw, I know it was a jaguar.

02:27:08.000 It was right next to me.

02:27:09.000 And then we looked around and there was a freaking stray dog that had come from like an Indian reservation close by. 0.99

02:27:15.000 And it had been the stray dog.

02:27:17.000 So it would have been a much cooler story if it was a jaguar.

02:27:20.000 It's a long way to go.

02:27:21.000 It was the scare of my life.

02:27:24.000 You freaked me out.

02:27:26.000 Freak me out for no reason.

02:27:27.000 I had the image, the smell of death, the hot breath, right through the mosquito netting.

02:27:32.000 But it was just a dream.

02:27:34.000 I am terrified of big cats more than anything on the planet.

02:27:39.000 I have cats at home, like little cats, and I just watch the way they move.

02:27:43.000 They always eat on the counter, which is the equivalent of me jumping on the roof of this building.

02:27:49.000 I mean, it's not happening.

02:27:50.000 But to them, it's like, boing!

02:27:52.000 They just hop up on the counter to eat.

02:27:54.000 It's so crazy to think that there's one of those that's 200 pounds, and it's black as night, and it's wandering through the jungle.

02:28:03.000 That's what I was thinking about when I was breathing heavily.

02:28:08.000 What kind of poisonous stuff did you guys find when you were out there?

02:28:13.000 Bushmaster also.

02:28:14.000 The snake, not the gun.

02:28:15.000 The snake, not the gun.

02:28:16.000 A lot of things, but you know, ultimately we were afraid of all these things, and actually Darren has a fascination for snakes, so he wasn't as scared as I was, but what got us was several months after we came back, I had this little thing growing on my finger that I thought it was just a bug, and then I decided I had to get it checked out because it was growing and growing,

02:28:35.000 and suddenly pus was coming out of it, so I thought it was maybe skin cancer, and I went to a dermatologist in a Turns out I got a flesh-eating parasite that I caught in Brazil that only exists in a few parts of the world, so they didn't have the treatment here.

02:28:47.000 CDC, the Center for Disease Control, had to make a special treatment for me that had a nurse come to my house, and it was pretty scary. 0.99

02:28:55.000 That's why I say fuck going to the airport. 1.00

02:28:57.000 I hear stories like that. 1.00

02:29:00.000 It's either that or...

02:29:01.000 What is that show, The Enemy Inside You, or something like that?

02:29:05.000 There's a show that is always about people going to these places and catching parasites.

02:29:08.000 Oh, yeah.

02:29:09.000 And they don't even realize they have them until they...

02:29:11.000 Crawls across their eyeball.

02:29:12.000 Yeah, they start having weird behavior because there's like a baseball-sized cluster of worms growing inside their head.

02:29:20.000 I watched that too.

02:29:21.000 Nature, you scary.

02:29:23.000 Nature is very scary.

02:29:24.000 So this Wednesday is the show and it's on Nat Geo and it's called Inside Secret America 10pm this Wednesday.

02:29:33.000 Set your DVRs.

02:29:34.000 Watch it.

02:29:35.000 I am going to.

02:29:35.000 I'm running home.

02:29:36.000 I'm going to set my DVR. This has been an awesome conversation.

02:29:39.000 I really, really appreciate you guys coming down.

02:29:41.000 And again, I really appreciate that OxyContin Express.

02:29:44.000 That really opened my eyes to you guys and also to the subject at whole.

02:29:49.000 And I think it was just brilliantly done.

02:29:51.000 So I really can't wait to see this.

02:29:52.000 So National Geographic, or it's Nat Geo now, is that what they're calling themselves?

02:29:57.000 They're being slick.

02:29:58.000 Wednesday, 10 p.m., Inside Secret America.

02:30:01.000 Thank you guys very much.

02:30:03.000 Thank you so much, Joe.

02:30:04.000 Thank you also to Onnit.com.

02:30:07.000 Go to O-N-N-I-T.com.

02:30:09.000 And use the code name ROGAN to save 10% off any and all supplements.

02:30:13.000 Thank you also to Squarespace.

02:30:15.000 Go to squarespace.com forward slash Joe and use the code JOE7 to save yourself some cash.

02:30:24.000 Okay?

02:30:26.000 And thanks also to Audible.com.

02:30:29.000 Go to Audible.com forward slash Joe and get yourself a free audiobook and 30 free days of Audible service.

02:30:37.000 We will be back tomorrow with the great Joey Coco Diaz, a.k.a.

02:30:42.000 Mad Flavor.

02:30:42.000 My little buddy Red Band will be joining us again as well.

02:30:45.000 He's off doing his own podcast tonight at the Comedy Store with the great Tony Hinchcliffe.

02:30:51.000 They're doing one there on a regular basis.

02:30:53.000 You can check that out at deathsquad.tv.com.

02:30:55.000 And you can check out all of Brian's podcasts there, as well as his new t-shirt that he's releasing.

02:31:00.000 He just got done designing it, and he's got a pre-sale that's available now on DeathSquad.tv.

02:31:05.000 All right, we love you guys, and we'll see you tomorrow.

02:31:07.000 Thanks, everybody.

02:31:08.000 Big kiss.

02:31:30.000 Thank you.

The Joe Rogan Experience - July 08, 2013

Joe Rogan Experience #372 - Mariana van Zeller

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