The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #524 - Rickson Gracie & Eddie Bravo

00:00:02.000 Hey everybody, this episode of the podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

00:00:05.000 Squarespace is the all-in-one platform that makes it fast and easy to create your own professional website. 0.60

00:00:12.000 It used to be a long time ago that it was a real pain in the ass to get a website.

00:00:15.000 If you wanted to get a website, you had to find someone who knew how to make one. 0.52

00:00:18.000 They had to code it in HTML. It was a nightmare.

00:00:21.000 And then they started making these programs like Dreamweaver and all these.

00:00:25.000 They're very difficult to learn and try to figure out how to put it together.

00:00:29.000 And then if it worked, it wouldn't work on certain platforms.

00:00:32.000 Now, Squarespace has that all covered and anybody, I mean, you, me, any person, if you can attach a photo to an email, you can make a beautiful, professional-looking website.

00:00:44.000 It's very simple.

00:00:45.000 Drag and drop interface.

00:00:47.000 They have 24-7 support.

00:00:49.000 They work on Windows, Mac, PC, iPhones, Android.

00:00:54.000 Very easy to do.

00:00:56.000 About as easy as you can get.

00:00:58.000 They also have it available so that you can create your own online store.

00:01:04.000 We're good to go.

00:01:08.000 We're good to go.

00:01:27.000 That's Squarespace.com and enter the code word Joe.

00:01:31.000 We're also brought to you by Onnit.

00:01:33.000 Onnit is a human optimization website.

00:01:36.000 What we sell is strength and conditioning equipment, health and fitness supplements.

00:01:40.000 We just try to sell what we find to be the best things available.

00:01:45.000 Whether it's kettlebells, we sell kettlebells, both the regular kettlebells that we sell, and we also have primal bells and zombie bells, these artistic kettlebells that are, the primal bells are the great ape collection, gorilla, orangutan, chimp,

00:02:00.000 and howler monkey, very cool to look at, cool to have around the gym, they look good, and they're functional 3D mapped kettlebells, so it's not like they're out of balance just for the sake of looking cool, they're 3D balanced The best kettlebells you can buy, and when you use them, you can be content that when the apocalypse comes, 0.80

00:02:18.000 these fucking things will be still here. 0.95

00:02:20.000 They're solid metal, they will last forever, and they're excellent. 0.99

00:02:23.000 We sell the best supplements that we can find.

00:02:26.000 The best hemp force protein powder.

00:02:28.000 We have a new item called the Warrior Bar.

00:02:31.000 It's made the ancient Dakota way. 0.74

00:02:33.000 It's a buffalo supplement bar.

00:02:36.000 So if you're on the run and you need to get some food in your body and you just want to have a snack that's not negative and not nasty for you, this Warrior Bar has 140 calories, 4 grams of fat per serving, and 14 grams of protein.

00:02:50.000 All healthy.

00:02:51.000 No MSG, no soy, no lactose, no nitrates, no antibiotics.

00:02:55.000 No added hormones.

00:02:57.000 Super, super healthy for you.

00:02:59.000 And like all things at Onnit, we just find whatever we can that is the best version of whatever that is for sale, and then we sell it.

00:03:06.000 We try to sell it to you at the most reasonable rate possible.

00:03:09.000 If you use the code word ROGAN, you will save 10% off any and all supplements.

00:03:14.000 All right.

00:03:15.000 Why play around?

00:03:16.000 Hicks and Gracie is here, ladies and gentlemen.

00:03:17.000 And my brother, Eddie Bravo.

00:03:19.000 Cue the music, Jamie.

00:03:20.000 Let's get going.

00:03:23.000 Joe Rogan Podcast.

00:03:24.000 Check it out.

00:03:25.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:03:27.000 Train by day!

00:03:28.000 Joe Rogan Podcast by night!

00:03:30.000 All day!

00:03:37.000 Alright, we're live.

00:03:38.000 First of all, thank you very much for doing this.

00:03:40.000 I appreciate it.

00:03:41.000 Out of all the people online, whenever things get brought up for mixed martial arts guests or jujitsu guests, it's always get Hicks and Gracie on the podcast.

00:03:51.000 So the clouds have parted, the stars have aligned, and you're here, and we appreciate it very much.

00:03:57.000 I'm very thankful too, Joe and Eddie, to be with you guys here and have this conversation.

00:04:04.000 It's funny because last time we talked in my house, a while ago, of course, you make me some questions, you're curious, you're all about knowing what has in my mind.

00:04:18.000 And at this point, I was the talker.

00:04:22.000 And, you know, in the past, and the time goes by, and today I can see, after all this process of evolutionary process in the MMA and the martial arts world, I mean, since then I've been watching you doing your job.

00:04:39.000 Commenting fights, analyzing other fighters.

00:04:42.000 And today I can see, man, you are a red belt in the whole extension of the world. 1.00

00:04:47.000 You know everything.

00:04:48.000 I mean, if I have a question, I have to call you and ask you what's up because I'm very, very, I mean, impressed with your career, with your charisma, with the way you position your opinions.

00:05:01.000 It's all very precise, so...

00:05:04.000 I'm very happy to be here and discuss some talks and talk with you here.

00:05:08.000 Thank you, brother.

00:05:08.000 That's an honor to me.

00:05:09.000 And it was an honor for me to hang out with you that night.

00:05:12.000 It was really cool.

00:05:13.000 We had dinner with your family and then we watched some fights.

00:05:17.000 And it was really interesting watching fights with you and watching you break down positions and break down mistakes that people were making.

00:05:23.000 And I've told a lot of people about that, man.

00:05:24.000 I've told a lot of people about that night.

00:05:27.000 That documentary, Choke, that is one documentary that I've told people.

00:05:31.000 If you're really interested in Jiu-Jitsu, you really want to find out what the spirit of Jiu-Jitsu is all about, watch the documentary, Choke.

00:05:39.000 That documentary is so inspirational.

00:05:41.000 They followed you, was it in 94, 95?

00:05:45.000 Yeah, 95 going into 96, yes.

00:05:47.000 95 going into 96, and you were fighting in Japan, in the Japan Valley Tudo, and it documented a lot of your training, and it documented your philosophy.

00:05:54.000 Yes.

00:05:55.000 Man, if ever I need some motivation, I'll slap that DVD on.

00:05:59.000 You just get fired up.

00:06:00.000 You want to go do some yoga on the beach or something.

00:06:02.000 Yeah, it was fun.

00:06:03.000 How did that come about?

00:06:05.000 What?

00:06:05.000 That documentary.

00:06:07.000 Well, it was a project with a student of mine who was working with the Polygram and also...

00:06:14.000 So we decided to follow up to the event.

00:06:19.000 And so they have a crew following a couple of fighters, and I'll follow myself to see what's going to happen at the event.

00:06:29.000 So it was a nice introduction to a preparation, to the mindset of a fighter, either myself or Todd Haynes, who is another...

00:06:40.000 And also the Japanese guy was also involved in the filming.

00:06:44.000 So it was a cool, primal experience to an MMA fight, like a Valetudo fight.

00:06:51.000 Well, it was very eye-opening for a lot of fighters who looked at...

00:06:55.000 Mixed martial arts, a lot of them come from a wrestling background, and they looked at mixed martial arts more of like as a sport.

00:07:02.000 Just be tough, you know, you gotta get up, you gotta train hard, you gotta run hard, you gotta lift hard.

00:07:06.000 And your philosophy was much more like a samurai.

00:07:09.000 Your philosophy was much deeper, much more meditation-based, and we got to see you doing yoga.

00:07:16.000 I think you opened up a lot of people's eyes to a different mindset involved in preparation.

00:07:23.000 But also to yoga.

00:07:24.000 That was the first time I had ever seen a martial artist that was really into yoga.

00:07:29.000 Yes, I think for the athlete in general, the understanding of the breathing is a big plus because by hyperventilating, you stretch your physical potential.

00:07:42.000 By knowing how to breathe properly, you relax.

00:07:45.000 You can bring your heart beats lower.

00:07:50.000 There's a lot of elements in the breathing who are involved We're controlling emotions, getting more energy and so on.

00:07:57.000 So as I get exposed to breathing properly, I get addicted and I felt like it was a huge element of, you know, in addition to the techniques, in addition to the heart and to the heart training.

00:08:11.000 Learning the breathing is a huge beneficial thing for the athlete.

00:08:16.000 Now you see athletes like tennis players, they play in breathing, and the breath is much more into the sport today.

00:08:27.000 So it's a process of...

00:08:29.000 Knowing, now I see Krohn, my son, he's, I mean, before he's just like, see, oh, Dad, I see you training and breathing.

00:08:36.000 But now he's coming to me and said, Dad, this makes all the difference in the world when I really, you know, start to getting tired to make hyperventilation and keep my mind, like, sharp.

00:08:46.000 Because sometimes if you get tired... 0.99

00:08:49.000 There's not enough oxygen in the blood to feel your sharpness in your mind, so you become a little stupid, a little slower, you know? 0.99

00:08:59.000 So, by having a good Knowing how to hyperventilate, you're able to maximize this oxygen. 0.96

00:09:07.000 So even though the acetylactic take over your body, your mind is still sharp and you're still responding accordingly.

00:09:12.000 So it's a great thing to do.

00:09:14.000 And you were born into the greatest jiu-jitsu family, the greatest martial arts family of all time.

00:09:18.000 I mean, there's no doubt about it.

00:09:20.000 There's not even a second place. 0.89

00:09:22.000 There's the Gracie family, and then there's, you know, I guess you could have a debate about who comes in second, but it's kind of ridiculous.

00:09:28.000 That is the number one martial arts family of all time.

00:09:32.000 And you obviously learned Jiu-Jitsu from a very early age, but how did you get involved into the yoga?

00:09:38.000 Oh, it was, you know, I'm very happy to be related with this master called Orlando Cunny.

00:09:47.000 Which was the precursor of the Ginástica Natural.

00:09:51.000 I was learning at the same time, Alvaro Romano, who is the guy who is now making the tapes.

00:09:58.000 We're learning together, you know?

00:10:00.000 And at that point, I was just practicing with him, like he loved my father.

00:10:08.000 He's an older guy who's a very tough athlete and also a yoga teacher.

00:10:12.000 So he combined He developed some kind of style of yoga which is not exactly a postural, like postures and breathing to relax or to achieve meditation.

00:10:24.000 It was more like an active breathing for athletes.

00:10:27.000 In order for you to jump higher, you have to know how to have harmony between your jump and your breathing.

00:10:35.000 Keep more strength for a long time.

00:10:37.000 You have to know how to breed accordingly to promote that.

00:10:41.000 So he's always in the active breeding.

00:10:46.000 And then we started doing privates and I was in his place for a couple of months.

00:10:52.000 He's guiding me through the moves in front of a mirror in a nice room.

00:10:58.000 One day, we were about to start the class, and as soon as we were about to start, he was calling the phone, and he said to me, Hickson, you keep going and I'll be right back.

00:11:12.000 So for the first time, I was able to breathe, make my routine without following him up, without having my mind focused on what he was doing.

00:11:21.000 So I started to breathe and move and breathe and move, And then it has some woods on the walls.

00:11:29.000 We kind of imitate monkeys to climb the wood and stuff.

00:11:33.000 So at one point, I come back to reality. 0.52

00:11:37.000 And then I was on top of the highest frame in the wall, sweating like a pig.

00:11:44.000 And then I look around and start to come back to reality.

00:11:48.000 And I saw him on the corner crying.

00:11:52.000 And then I said, what's up, man?

00:11:54.000 What's going on?

00:11:54.000 He said, man, you don't have to learn anything else from me.

00:11:58.000 You achieve the highest level of get empty mind.

00:12:04.000 And then I kind of said, why do you say that?

00:12:06.000 He said, yeah, because you're here for an hour and 15 minutes and completely off.

00:12:10.000 I mean, you didn't notice anything.

00:12:12.000 Because he was applying the development of the animal instinct, which takes your brain off...

00:12:19.000 Your mind, your concentration, and keep you more like an instinctive animal.

00:12:26.000 And that was the vision.

00:12:28.000 And through this, because before that, I was doing transcendental meditation, I did traditional yoga, and those never did great for me.

00:12:38.000 In the meditation, I was sleeping.

00:12:41.000 By doing that kind of routine, I was able to not just breathe properly, but also...

00:12:48.000 Achieve empty mind.

00:12:50.000 And I was like in a state, a meditation state for a long time, like not concentrating on anything like rational.

00:12:59.000 Oh, he's there or he's...

00:13:00.000 So I was able to achieve like an empty mind.

00:13:04.000 And after I noticed that, I started to practice my routines to get that same feeling of emptiness.

00:13:12.000 And that kind of meditation works for me as no other one.

00:13:16.000 And I felt like being an empty mind increases my, I don't know, my intuition, increases my sense of energy.

00:13:28.000 So it was incredible for me because I could...

00:13:32.000 Get in touch more comfortably with my, I mean, my third vision.

00:13:37.000 I don't know exactly what to explain, but I could achieve a completely peace of mind in that kind of routine.

00:13:42.000 So I was stick for life.

00:13:45.000 So you just got into this state and you could just exist.

00:13:48.000 No conscious thought, no thinking about anything around you, no past, no future.

00:13:53.000 Just exist in that moment with no context.

00:13:56.000 Yes, and that's a kind of a weird positive feeling because You're capable to be present in a sense which, if you have your mind set, if you have something, expectations, you're never there.

00:14:11.000 So I was able to be very comfortable and very easily to get into that situation where even prior to the fight, I'm able to sleep on the locker room, making my workout, getting a very high heartbeat.

00:14:27.000 And then like five minutes before, I make my praise, I make my meditation, and I kind of cool off my heartbeat to 60 heartbeats a minute.

00:14:36.000 So I was able to engage very hot, And with the hard, very low heartbeat.

00:14:43.000 And as the fight progresses, the pace is very hard.

00:14:47.000 If I'm 60, he is 80. When I'm 80, he's 100. When I'm 100, he's 120. When I'm 120, he's a 45. So when he started to have to regroup, I was still having to go forward.

00:15:02.000 So at that point, my opponents always lose a little bit.

00:15:07.000 So it was a time for me to make the kill, you know.

00:15:10.000 So it was always working properly for me.

00:15:13.000 The breathing was always working very well.

00:15:16.000 So this empty mind state enhanced your jiu-jitsu, this ability to achieve this state on top of all the techniques, on top of all the training and the instincts, this took it to the next level.

00:15:26.000 Yes, because, you know, at one point, if you allowed yourself to be present, you not commit to the offense or the defense, you commit to give nothing and take everything.

00:15:37.000 So you give me opportunity, I will be there.

00:15:40.000 If you try to surprise me, I will be there accordingly defending myself.

00:15:44.000 So it's all on the table.

00:15:46.000 It's like no surprises because there's no expectations.

00:15:49.000 So keeping a cool mind, even when it's boiling, is something I felt like was always like something which gives me an edge.

00:15:59.000 Because I was there just to either catch what is there or resolve the problem.

00:16:05.000 Never disappointed or never late.

00:16:09.000 No expectations.

00:16:10.000 I love that.

00:16:11.000 Yeah, and it's always late.

00:16:12.000 I mean, sometimes you get late because you're playing something in a fight and it doesn't happen.

00:16:16.000 So you start to be disappointed.

00:16:18.000 So for me, it was always like whatever happened, I'm there, I'm happy, comfortable, finding comfortable, finding the sharpness to...

00:16:26.000 To achieve success, you know, so it was great.

00:16:29.000 You grew up in this jiu-jitsu family, but you were always, at least from most people's interpretation, you were always the best guy out of the family.

00:16:40.000 How did that happen?

00:16:41.000 How did you rise above all the rest? 0.95

00:16:43.000 I mean, you grew up with a bunch of killers.

00:16:45.000 Yes, everybody was training hard.

00:16:47.000 Everybody was pushing to the maximum.

00:16:52.000 For one point, I feel like I'm dedicated, I'm perfectionist, I'm competitive in my heart.

00:16:59.000 But some elements I get was more like a God gift.

00:17:04.000 It's not exactly something I choose.

00:17:07.000 So, we're training all the same.

00:17:10.000 Why my brother...

00:17:11.000 I can play with my brothers and they cannot have a chance with me.

00:17:16.000 So, that's kind of hard to explain.

00:17:17.000 It's not me trying to do this.

00:17:20.000 This just happened.

00:17:21.000 It's myself trying to be my best.

00:17:24.000 Plus...

00:17:25.000 The emotional control, the peace of mind.

00:17:29.000 For example, my beloved brother Heuler, he's a great fighter, but sometimes he gets too emotional.

00:17:38.000 And that sometimes makes him choose the wrong path.

00:17:45.000 So Royce, he's a great fighter.

00:17:49.000 But sometimes he gets a little confused.

00:17:53.000 He's not having the sharp offensive attitude.

00:17:58.000 So sometimes something slips.

00:18:03.000 And so on.

00:18:04.000 So I don't exactly know why I'm the one.

00:18:09.000 I just have to represent and be, you know, happy to be the one.

00:18:14.000 And I tell you, man, all the opportunities I have to represent, I did already.

00:18:18.000 So I feel like completely comfortable in myself saying, okay, I have nothing to prove to myself.

00:18:24.000 I did all.

00:18:26.000 And, you know, I'm very happy with the results.

00:18:29.000 So, jiu-jitsu for life.

00:18:31.000 Jiu-jitsu for life, indeed.

00:18:32.000 Your brother...

00:18:34.000 That's not on.

00:18:35.000 What's on?

00:18:35.000 Jamie.

00:18:36.000 That's not on.

00:18:37.000 Check, check, check.

00:18:39.000 There we go.

00:18:42.000 You had a cousin, Hols Gracie, the legendary Hols Gracie.

00:18:47.000 Actually, Hols is...

00:18:48.000 In the DNA, he's my cousin.

00:18:52.000 But he was living in my house since I was born because my uncle, as he divorced from his mother, He gave...

00:19:05.000 My father was just to get married.

00:19:07.000 So he gave Hollis to be care to my father and mother.

00:19:11.000 So he was like your brother.

00:19:12.000 So he's my older brother because Horion came in just after and then Halston.

00:19:17.000 And then when I was born, like eight years, nine years later, I was the little one living with Hollis, Horion and Halston.

00:19:26.000 So he's my brother.

00:19:27.000 There's no way to...

00:19:28.000 See him differently.

00:19:30.000 He was known as a guy who went all over the world, studied Sambo, studied some catch wrestling and wrestlers, and he would bring that back, right?

00:19:40.000 Yes, yes.

00:19:40.000 Would you credit Holes in bringing leg locks into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?

00:19:47.000 Is he the one?

00:19:48.000 Yes, I mean, the leg locks specifically was not something I kind of get the major information From Halls.

00:19:59.000 It was funny.

00:20:00.000 One day, Eric Paulson was a good student and a very good friend.

00:20:05.000 He brought a tape for me from Japan with Shoto.

00:20:13.000 Shoto Wrestling.

00:20:15.000 And I saw the knee locks in the Shoto Wrestling, you know?

00:20:19.000 Some guys fighting, and I saw it.

00:20:21.000 And it was kind of interesting.

00:20:21.000 And then the next day, I started to apply it.

00:20:24.000 And then it was funny because he commented to me afterwards at Hickson.

00:20:29.000 I mean, I give you the tape one day, next day we're submitting everybody on the knee locks.

00:20:33.000 Oh, really?

00:20:34.000 Yeah, it was fun.

00:20:35.000 So you would say you learned more leg locks from Eric Paulson's tape than holes?

00:20:39.000 Yeah, I mean, holes was not specifically a leg lock guy, you know?

00:20:44.000 There's a picture of him with a Sambo shirt on.

00:20:46.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:20:46.000 People go, look, look, he's a master of Sambo.

00:20:49.000 No, no.

00:20:50.000 We go in Sambo as we go in any other.

00:20:53.000 We go in representing Jiu-Jitsu against Sambo.

00:20:57.000 And the Pan American Games we went in San Diego was very interesting because the fighters, they don't expect so much submissions.

00:21:10.000 And we start immediately because tough wrestlers, tough judo players.

00:21:15.000 So we start immediately bringing the fight to the ground and go for foot locks and knee locks. 0.52

00:21:21.000 And immediately, I mean, in the first qualification phase, they start to tap in a lot.

00:21:26.000 And then the referees start to become kind of a little skeptical about that.

00:21:31.000 They start to become more...

00:21:32.000 So once Halls grabbed them in the footlock, especially in the final match in his weight division, He got the guy on the footlock, the referee stopped the fight and said, no, you cannot get the footlock on the joint.

00:21:45.000 You have to get on the shin.

00:21:46.000 And then it's kind of confusing, you know, and cutting.

00:21:50.000 That's why Halls lost the finals in this event.

00:21:54.000 This was in the 70s.

00:21:56.000 It was, I think, 80s, 81 or 80s.

00:22:00.000 So they were trying to cut him out?

00:22:03.000 Yeah, the referees started getting upset because it was funny.

00:22:07.000 We're supposed to come in with a team from Brazil of 12 guys, and we're expecting support from the government.

00:22:16.000 And then the government at the very last moment didn't give to us.

00:22:21.000 So my father paid to us to come.

00:22:23.000 So just me, Carlos Gracie Jr., and Halls.

00:22:27.000 So we come in to compete in this event.

00:22:30.000 How old were you at this time?

00:22:32.000 You must have been like 18 or something.

00:22:33.000 Yes, 19, something like that.

00:22:36.000 And then we come in and I was in the My Way division, which is one above Halls.

00:22:43.000 And Hollis was below me, and Carlos was on top of me.

00:22:47.000 So we're kind of having one in each division.

00:22:50.000 And as the competition progresses, the referees start to see those three guys from Brazil just submitting everybody because in Samba, chokes are not allowed. 1.00

00:22:59.000 No headlocks, no collar chokes.

00:23:01.000 It's only knee locks, foot locks, or straight arm bars.

00:23:05.000 You cannot even do the Americanas because it goes in the...

00:23:08.000 So we just go and try to do footlocks because those are the easiest way.

00:23:12.000 So we start to finish the guys and they start to say, oh, this guy's coming and do footlocks.

00:23:16.000 And everybody may complain.

00:23:18.000 I don't know if...

00:23:19.000 But it's Sambo, though.

00:23:20.000 Sambo.

00:23:21.000 Yeah, that's what they do is footlocks.

00:23:22.000 It's now.

00:23:23.000 Now.

00:23:23.000 Back then, there wasn't footlocks.

00:23:25.000 Yeah, it's so interesting how that's changed.

00:23:28.000 No, it was legal, but it was not used, especially in the Sambo and American concepts.

00:23:34.000 Russia, maybe.

00:23:35.000 Yeah.

00:23:35.000 American Samba focus on what mostly?

00:23:38.000 They are more likely to control.

00:23:39.000 The rules are, if you pin the guy for 30 seconds, it's like wrestling.

00:23:43.000 Not as long, but you still win like judo.

00:23:47.000 And as you attempt the pin, every time the guy passes the back on the ground, you're still making points.

00:23:55.000 So in my final match, I guess a guy from the Air Force, very strong guy with maybe wrestling and judo background. 0.99

00:24:03.000 And he was whipping my ass, man. 0.99

00:24:05.000 He's just like... 1.00

00:24:06.000 In the first, like, three rounds, three minutes.

00:24:09.000 In the first round, he stay on top all the time.

00:24:12.000 And because being in the guard, you're losing points.

00:24:15.000 The score is about 12 or 14 points in the first round.

00:24:18.000 In the second round, it's about 18 or 20. I tell you, in the very final round, I was about 26 or something points against zero.

00:24:32.000 You know, and I was just trying to do my thing, and then one, like, maybe a minute before the very final round, I swept him and mounted.

00:24:42.000 And he, at the same time I mounted, he tried to push me away, and I got, like, a moving arm lock.

00:24:49.000 And he not even tapped.

00:24:50.000 He just yelled.

00:24:51.000 And then I win the fight in the very final seconds.

00:24:55.000 And you were down 20-something.

00:24:57.000 Yes, I was like...

00:24:58.000 Points are not even chance.

00:25:00.000 I'm not there to win by points.

00:25:02.000 I was there just to see if I can submit.

00:25:04.000 It's fascinating.

00:25:05.000 And then the guy tapped like 15 seconds before the fight is end.

00:25:10.000 And then the whole crowd was...

00:25:12.000 And then everything kind of...

00:25:14.000 And then just a few guys...

00:25:15.000 It was pretty fun.

00:25:19.000 So when Eric Paulson showed you these tapes of Shudo in the 90s, you were already doing leg locks a little bit, right?

00:25:25.000 Not really.

00:25:26.000 I very like foot locks.

00:25:28.000 I always loved...

00:25:29.000 The straight foot lock.

00:25:29.000 Yes.

00:25:30.000 And then what Eric Paulson showed you was like fancy knee bars and stuff.

00:25:33.000 Yes, because from the guard you just spin around and go with the straight knee lock.

00:25:38.000 So I get amazed by this kind of...

00:25:40.000 And I start to develop, you know, very quickly.

00:25:43.000 It was just adapt to my game and was an...

00:25:47.000 In addition to the arsenal, it was great.

00:25:50.000 It's funny when you look back at old Eric Paulson fights from Japan, you look at the stuff he was doing, and people today still aren't even doing that.

00:25:56.000 He's way ahead of the game, too.

00:25:59.000 Eric Paulson was an encyclopedia of submissions.

00:26:01.000 Him and Matt Hume.

00:26:03.000 Those guys back then, it looked like Like advanced Jiu Jitsu, and of course, you know, anytime you got the mount, there was always an arm bar.

00:26:10.000 Yeah, but you know, that time, Eric was being training very consistently for us.

00:26:16.000 He's a good brother and a training partner.

00:26:19.000 He's always been a great warrior, and I have a lot of respect for him.

00:26:23.000 Great guy.

00:26:24.000 Very, very knowledgeable guy.

00:26:25.000 Isn't it fascinating that we've seen, just in the time that I started training from 96 on, this adoption of leg locks in Jiu Jitsu.

00:26:35.000 In the early, in the 90s, it used to be that leg locks were frowned upon.

00:26:39.000 When someone went for leg locks, people would get really upset.

00:26:42.000 Hickson, were you at the first Pan American Games in 1996 or 1997 here in El Segundo in L.A.? You must have been there, right?

00:26:51.000 Do you remember that?

00:26:52.000 Probably, yes.

00:26:52.000 It was the first Pan Americans.

00:26:54.000 There was like 500 Brazilians.

00:26:56.000 They shipped them all.

00:26:58.000 It was an invasion.

00:27:00.000 It was an invasion of Brazilians. 1.00

00:27:01.000 And the crazy thing is I was a blue belt in jiu-jitsu and I saw Ken Shamrock tape of a toehold.

00:27:07.000 So I was a blue belt doing toeholds at Jean-Jacques Machado's academy.

00:27:12.000 And I competed in the tournament, and so did Eric Paulson.

00:27:15.000 And when I went for a toehold in this tournament, all the Brazilians started throwing... 1.00

00:27:19.000 There was almost a riot.

00:27:20.000 They called the cops.

00:27:21.000 They were throwing shoes at me.

00:27:22.000 And Johnny Machado, I'll never forget, him running in slow-mo, sliding.

00:27:26.000 And I had the toehold, and Johnny goes, You gotta let it go!

00:27:30.000 So I had the toehold, and I'm looking around, so I let it go.

00:27:33.000 People are throwing shoes at me, and water bottles and stuff.

00:27:36.000 It was like a big deal, and I ended up losing.

00:27:38.000 I let it go.

00:27:40.000 And afterwards, Eric Paulson's in the parking lot.

00:27:42.000 It was just me and him.

00:27:43.000 He was a blue belt as well.

00:27:44.000 And he was like, he was a kid.

00:27:46.000 We were like the same age, but he was like, I was like a little kid.

00:27:49.000 He was like, you know, let me talk to you, kid.

00:27:51.000 He goes, let me show you a couple leg locks. 1.00

00:27:52.000 So he showed me a couple things, like this weirdest leg lock that It doesn't work. 0.96

00:27:56.000 And he admits it now that it was garbage.

00:27:58.000 But he showed me this leg lock. 0.82

00:27:59.000 He showed me this leg lock where you go like this, this weird thing, in the parking lot.

00:28:04.000 And I'll never forget that.

00:28:05.000 I was like, man, this guy's the only guy who understands that I like toeholds.

00:28:09.000 And he was on my podcast not too long ago.

00:28:12.000 And I asked him about that movie.

00:28:13.000 He goes, do you remember that movie? 0.99

00:28:14.000 He goes, oh yeah, it's garbage. 1.00

00:28:15.000 It's trash. 1.00

00:28:16.000 It doesn't work. 0.99

00:28:16.000 Again, he raised that one. 0.99

00:28:19.000 Isn't it fascinating how these ideas, they get innovated and within our lifetime, they start to get implemented and they get weeded out.

00:28:27.000 The ones that work wind up staying.

00:28:29.000 The ones that don't work fall by the wayside.

00:28:31.000 What do you think about the IBJJF banning heel hooks?

00:28:36.000 You think that's a good thing?

00:28:37.000 I like to...

00:28:39.000 First, of course, it's a pleasure to talk about all this.

00:28:44.000 And I can answer that because I feel like the heel hooks...

00:28:49.000 It has to be implemented in the top-level fighters because it's a solid technique, but because it's designed to stretch the ligaments, not the joints, it's a difference between you going in your finger this way,

00:29:06.000 you're going to feel pain before it breaks.

00:29:10.000 But if you go this way, you're going to resist until it pops.

00:29:16.000 So it's just ligaments.

00:29:17.000 It's not a joint.

00:29:18.000 This is a joint.

00:29:19.000 This is a ligament.

00:29:20.000 So when you twist the knee, the guy can still resist.

00:29:24.000 And when he feels, he's going to feel the pop.

00:29:26.000 He's not going to feel the pain to tap.

00:29:29.000 So this is in a way, if you don't have the experience, you're going to bust your knee.

00:29:36.000 So we don't want to see guys with busted knees just because they're tough or just because they don't know.

00:29:42.000 So we forbid in a whole...

00:29:44.000 The heel hooks.

00:29:46.000 But in an advanced level, like Metamores or like premium pros, I think they should bring back in.

00:29:57.000 Because this is part of the game and you have to be responsible to let it broke or tap.

00:30:02.000 And especially a guy like Tokinho.

00:30:04.000 When you see Paul Hares, he's such a master at it.

00:30:06.000 It's exciting to watch that guy fight to see how guys are going to deal with that.

00:30:09.000 Well, Abu Dhabi still allows heel hooks, right?

00:30:11.000 Abu Dhabi allows Metamores.

00:30:13.000 In my experience, I've been teaching now 10 years.

00:30:17.000 We've...

00:30:18.000 I allow heel hooks from day one only because I... As an instructor, I don't want some leg lock guy coming into my school and tapping everybody out with leg locks. 0.77

00:30:29.000 So I wanted all my guys to be very well-versed in leg locks.

00:30:34.000 And in my experience, we reap.

00:30:37.000 We heel hook white belts.

00:30:39.000 I can't even tell you the last time someone got hurt from a heel hook.

00:30:42.000 I can't...

00:30:43.000 I don't even know.

00:30:44.000 Maybe...

00:30:45.000 Maybe once in 10 years.

00:30:47.000 Yeah, I think that kind of education is kind of positive because it gives the guy the sense.

00:30:53.000 If he feels the problem, he has to tap in advance.

00:30:56.000 He cannot allow the pop to happen because you're going to bust your knee.

00:30:59.000 And in Naga and Grapper's Quest, they allow heel hooks and you rarely ever hear about anybody getting hurt.

00:31:05.000 I think once you learn how to defend it, it's actually...

00:31:11.000 People will tap generally, and some people that don't tap, like Gary Tonin was talking about the first time, someone got him in a heel hook and his knee popped a few times.

00:31:19.000 He thought, well, if I tap now, it already popped.

00:31:21.000 Why should I tap?

00:31:22.000 I should just keep going now.

00:31:26.000 If someone...

00:31:27.000 I think if someone's going to let their knee pop or get hurt, I think it's their responsibility to tap.

00:31:32.000 And if it pops, is it really a big deal?

00:31:36.000 I mean, it's part of the game.

00:31:37.000 People get hurt.

00:31:38.000 People get their knees blown out in basketball way more than jujitsu.

00:31:41.000 Again...

00:31:42.000 Soccer.

00:31:42.000 Yeah.

00:31:43.000 Again, in 10 years, I... I can't even tell you that maybe leg compressions a couple times guys have had their knees pop from leg compressions and even lockdown I've had a couple guys get their knee popped but heel hooks and reaping that's not something that I ever had to say we got to slow down be careful with the knee reaps just no one really gets hurt what seems to be a technique that when people were ignorant of it that's when people are really getting hurt more yeah Yeah,

00:32:08.000 sometimes when they really want to go for the hurt, they don't visualize the possibilities to hurt.

00:32:14.000 So they go and go full power from the beginning to the end.

00:32:18.000 So it's not even a chance to the guy tap.

00:32:20.000 He's already tapping late.

00:32:21.000 So that's more like the mindset of the guy who's attacking.

00:32:25.000 If he wants to break your knee, it's a great chance to do that in a heel.

00:32:29.000 And when we were adding wrestling to our jiu-jitsu classes, trying to combine it, now we separate.

00:32:34.000 We have separate wrestling classes and separate jiu-jitsu classes.

00:32:37.000 At a time when I was trying to combine it together, we would have a day where we'd just do wrestling and we'd do live wrestling drills and we're all standing up.

00:32:43.000 That's where everyone got hurt.

00:32:44.000 And it got to a point where...

00:32:45.000 Because people collided with each other?

00:32:46.000 Just trying to take someone down and tackling them.

00:32:49.000 They plant on their leg wrong.

00:32:51.000 Einstein broke his leg wrestling.

00:32:53.000 His leg broke because he planted on it wrong.

00:32:55.000 He got picked up.

00:32:56.000 So there came a point where I decided, you know what?

00:32:59.000 Too many guys are getting hurt on wrestling day.

00:33:01.000 So I cut wrestling out.

00:33:03.000 And, you know, if you want to wrestle, you go to the wrestling class.

00:33:06.000 In my class, it's just jiu-jitsu.

00:33:07.000 But we do allow reaping.

00:33:09.000 We do allow heel hooks. 0.90

00:33:10.000 And there's no one getting hurt from that.

00:33:12.000 More from the wrestling.

00:33:13.000 There's a famous match where you had with Mark Schultz.

00:33:17.000 What happened in that?

00:33:19.000 Because that's a very famous encounter and there's a movie coming out called Foxcatcher that's based on...

00:33:27.000 Do you know the story behind this movie?

00:33:30.000 What was the guy's name that was responsible?

00:33:33.000 Foxcatcher.

00:33:34.000 It was based on...

00:33:35.000 There was the two brothers.

00:33:41.000 Mark Schultz and David Schultz.

00:33:43.000 David Schultz got killed.

00:33:45.000 And it's based on this guy, John DuPont, who was this crazy rich guy who was... 1.00

00:33:52.000 Taking these wrestlers, and he was, I don't know, some weird gay shit. 1.00

00:33:56.000 There was something weird about him. 1.00

00:33:57.000 He'd pay for privates.

00:33:58.000 Well, not just that.

00:34:00.000 He'd set up a training center and pay them a lot of money and just get real weird with them and wrestle with these guys.

00:34:04.000 But he was like this old dude.

00:34:06.000 It wasn't like he was a guy who was really fit and really into training and learning techniques.

00:34:10.000 It was just real weird.

00:34:12.000 And he wound up shooting.

00:34:13.000 They creep through every now and then.

00:34:15.000 They do.

00:34:16.000 Well, he was a billionaire.

00:34:17.000 I mean, he was a super, super rich guy.

00:34:20.000 So this movie is actually about to come out now.

00:34:23.000 But his brother, Mark Schultz, fought in the UFC, Olympic gold medalist, fantastic wrestler, all-time great wrestler.

00:34:31.000 And you and he had an encounter.

00:34:33.000 Yeah, well, I was in Utah visiting my instructor, Pedro.

00:34:41.000 Pedro Sauer?

00:34:42.000 Yes.

00:34:43.000 And then we are invited to go to the BYU where he was coaching the wrestling team there.

00:34:51.000 And as I got there, you know, looking for training and stuff, and eventually he said, okay, let's train a little bit.

00:34:59.000 And then immediately we engaged.

00:35:02.000 Immediately he went to my guard.

00:35:05.000 And almost immediately, he's tapping out.

00:35:07.000 And then he was not happy at all.

00:35:10.000 Would you put him in a triangle, an armlock?

00:35:12.000 Yeah, triangle first.

00:35:13.000 From the guard.

00:35:13.000 Yes.

00:35:14.000 And then he becomes a little more smart, and he comes...

00:35:17.000 So it was a long second round.

00:35:22.000 Eventually, I went to his back and submitted him again.

00:35:25.000 And after a few sessions, I make him tap some.

00:35:30.000 And he was very impressed.

00:35:33.000 Like...

00:35:33.000 Well, nobody did this with me.

00:35:35.000 I mean, what's going on?

00:35:37.000 I mean, he was stronger than me.

00:35:39.000 I mean, of course, a warrior.

00:35:42.000 And he was not happy. 0.98

00:35:43.000 I mean, somebody said once, you show me a good loser and I show you a loser. 0.84

00:35:50.000 So he was not happy at all. 0.89

00:35:52.000 And of course I understood that.

00:35:55.000 But eventually he settled and he understood was a technique involved.

00:36:01.000 And he started to become training with Pedro and become passionate about Jiu Jitsu.

00:36:08.000 He trained a lot and he became like a supporter of the Jiu Jitsu cause in Utah.

00:36:15.000 And you know, it was a great experience because I can felt like the whole level of training and body control he has, but still like at that point the wrestlers have no clue what is, you know, submission.

00:36:30.000 So it was kind of, you know, a surprising thing for them, which doesn't happen those days.

00:36:35.000 Do you remember specifically what moves Holes brought from wrestling and from Sambo? 0.96

00:36:43.000 A good weight distribution, a good way to...

00:36:46.000 Like if the guy grabs you, you're able to make the movement to go to his back, like good turnovers, a good excellent sense of no-gi bass control, good grips to...

00:36:59.000 Arm drags and stuff like that?

00:37:01.000 Yeah, things like very, you know...

00:37:03.000 He was training a lot with Bob...

00:37:07.000 Bob Anderson.

00:37:09.000 Bob Anderson, yes.

00:37:11.000 So he was a good friend of Bob Anderson and Bob Anderson went to Brazil.

00:37:14.000 So it was like a...

00:37:15.000 He was the one who brought the wrestling ideas and concepts because he pushed us once to compete in Olympic wrestling.

00:37:25.000 So it was...

00:37:25.000 Halls was always, for me, a reference.

00:37:28.000 You know, as I grew up, he was the champion.

00:37:31.000 And he was just an unbelievable guy with a good heart and passion for Jiu Jitsu, love to represent.

00:37:38.000 He was my idol, you know, as I was growing up.

00:37:41.000 And I tried to follow his footsteps.

00:37:44.000 And as I was growing up, we all trained hard among each other, with others.

00:37:51.000 So, my goal was to beat Holes. 1.00

00:37:54.000 You know, my goal was to be better than him.

00:37:56.000 Let's suppose our last 30 trainings, maybe he beat me like in the first two or three.

00:38:06.000 And then we spend maybe 20 trainings or maybe 25 trainings even up like back and forth.

00:38:13.000 I start to get more and more into his game and what this strategy to catch me.

00:38:19.000 And I start to become more comfortable in the surviving.

00:38:22.000 And then at one point I start to getting the advantage in the training because no luck, either you better or not.

00:38:30.000 So, and consistently I start to become more comfortable and then eventually I start to get the advantage in some positions.

00:38:36.000 And then in one day, in the range of my father, like in a weekend, we all get together, it has a huge match.

00:38:43.000 So I was training with him and I submit him first time, you know?

00:38:49.000 Who'd you get him with?

00:38:51.000 Oh man, it was like a, you know?

00:38:54.000 Gui or no Gui?

00:38:55.000 Gui.

00:38:56.000 So, I don't even remember.

00:39:00.000 I think it was some kind of choke or something.

00:39:02.000 But what I remember, it was the feeling I felt by achieving my goal, I was making him feel like he was losing his position.

00:39:17.000 And I felt, the same way I felt happy, I felt sad because It was not his anymore.

00:39:25.000 It's myself, my responsibility now.

00:39:26.000 And we know that, and nobody knew.

00:39:30.000 I mean, of course, people saw the training, but at that point, I felt like I was there still to support him, but I was better than him.

00:39:42.000 And we're still competing in the events coming, and we always close the bracket because he goes in his weight division, I go in mine, and we go together in the open division.

00:39:53.000 So we always close the open, you know, and I never will fight, I mean, up to that day, he always being the first and I'm the second, the medal is his, even though I knew I could maybe change this, you know?

00:40:07.000 I never, ever will...

00:40:09.000 If he's still alive, he will be the number one and I'm number two, based on respect, based on hierarchy.

00:40:16.000 So, once he passes away, I have to take over.

00:40:20.000 You know and represent fully.

00:40:25.000 He's my inspiration and he's a great guy.

00:40:29.000 I miss him dearly.

00:40:30.000 He died in a tragic hang gliding accident.

00:40:33.000 How old were you at that time?

00:40:35.000 I was maybe 20, 22, something like that.

00:40:39.000 So he was there when you fought Zulu?

00:40:40.000 Yes, he was my coach.

00:40:42.000 He was in my corner with my dad.

00:40:44.000 For people out there that don't know what I'm talking about, the Zulu match that you had was one of the...

00:40:50.000 That's like watching an old Ali match, you know?

00:40:53.000 Can you put that up, Jamie?

00:40:56.000 Actually...

00:40:57.000 Hickson versus Zulu.

00:40:58.000 Yes.

00:40:59.000 I really, you know...

00:41:01.000 This conversation goes very well.

00:41:03.000 And I... I mean, I really appreciate you talking about the past, but I'd like to make a little pause on this and really bring up the most...

00:41:15.000 Because we have to live today.

00:41:17.000 We have to be motivated.

00:41:18.000 And I'm very happy today to come here to explain and talk about this new venture I'm involved with, which is the new JJGF, Jiu-Jitsu Global Federation.

00:41:32.000 Because talking about Jiu-Jitsu, talking about rules, talking about the future of Jiu-Jitsu, I think we're having a huge problem to be resolved.

00:41:43.000 And that is crucial for the future.

00:41:48.000 I see like this new organization will bring to the table the elements to resolve our problem.

00:41:57.000 I think our biggest problem today in the Jiu Jitsu community is losing effectiveness.

00:42:07.000 We've been losing effectiveness drastically from the last 15 years because The way, in order for us to restore effectiveness, I felt very appealing to me to engage in this venture,

00:42:26.000 which through this federation, We're going to try to resolve three important...

00:42:32.000 I mean, we have three pillars of action to try to resolve that problem Jiu-Jitsu has.

00:42:41.000 Effectiveness in what?

00:42:43.000 In MMA? Effectiveness.

00:42:44.000 In like a fight?

00:42:45.000 No, no.

00:42:45.000 Effectiveness.

00:42:46.000 I'm going to explain to you because it's different.

00:42:50.000 Efficiency and effectiveness.

00:42:53.000 Today, I see the top camp champions very efficient on getting medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life.

00:43:04.000 And if you see Jiu-Jitsu as I grow up, the core of Jiu-Jitsu was self-defense, is preparing the students to handle situations.

00:43:16.000 Today, the evolutionary process of jiu-jitsu brought the sport of jiu-jitsu and those rules, diminishing that effectiveness in the search for the medal.

00:43:28.000 So, and like, nothing can be boring for me, more boring than watch some fights in jiu-jitsu tournaments those days.

00:43:36.000 I believe you.

00:43:37.000 I mean...

00:43:38.000 They can choose between stepping the brake or stepping on the gas.

00:43:44.000 They can choose because the rules favor...

00:43:48.000 If you are strategically correct, you may want to go in the fight to fight a situation where you can control the pace of the fight, you can manage the whole thing, and eventually, by one or two moves, you get advantage and win the medal.

00:44:03.000 So, great!

00:44:04.000 You have the medal.

00:44:05.000 But sometimes, that shows...

00:44:09.000 A lack of desire to compete.

00:44:11.000 A lack of desire to engage in a fair fight.

00:44:14.000 A lot of times I see a white belt or a blue belt or a purple belt fight which is much more appealing, has much more open situations of changing positions than a black belt who sometimes sits on the floor and is stuck in a position who holds...

00:44:32.000 He's stalling the whole action.

00:44:35.000 So, by doing that, he's efficient on getting the medal, but he's losing effectiveness to handle real life.

00:44:42.000 That's why it's hard to see a jiu-jitsu representative on the cage who translates that.

00:44:51.000 I mean, I see jiu-jitsu translate today something I feel like I never will fight like that.

00:44:57.000 The guy is a jiu-jitsu practitioner for life.

00:45:00.000 He's great.

00:45:01.000 He's talented.

00:45:02.000 He's tough.

00:45:02.000 He's sometimes a champion.

00:45:04.000 But he don't fight the way I believe he's supposed to be fighting there.

00:45:08.000 You know, he has no idea of clinching.

00:45:10.000 He has no idea of sidekick.

00:45:12.000 He has no idea of a valetudo guard.

00:45:14.000 They have a sportive guard all the time trying to do homoplatas, you know, instead, and the guy on top just hamming them down.

00:45:21.000 So it's kind of weird because without that kind of efficiency, I mean, I'm sorry, effectiveness, Jiu-Jitsu is losing the integrity, the whole culture,

00:45:36.000 the whole concepts I trust and I believe all my life.

00:45:40.000 So if I can clarify, your issue is with points and with advantage points?

00:45:45.000 Yes.

00:45:46.000 For example, this new situation will be this federation is not there to compete with other organizations.

00:45:55.000 I'm not there to...

00:45:56.000 I'm doing the job It was not done yet, you know.

00:46:01.000 Based on this platform, this state-of-the-art platform, we try to have three different elements to work with.

00:46:10.000 The information.

00:46:13.000 I think the vision is to perform something, a good service.

00:46:19.000 My intention with this is to serve the community In the sport community, the worldwide jiu-jitsu community, and the sport of jiu-jitsu.

00:46:31.000 Thinking that, I have three different elements.

00:46:34.000 The first one is the communication aspect, the information.

00:46:37.000 Through the site, you're going to have a listing of all the academies on the planet.

00:46:43.000 We have a listing of all athletes.

00:46:47.000 Profiles, downloads of fights.

00:46:49.000 So they will have the option to request sponsors, show themselves.

00:46:55.000 It's like a Google slash Facebook for the community.

00:47:00.000 And also we're going to have a Masters Council which brings all the guys who have traditionally spent their lives in the Jiu-Jitsu community to have a voice, active voice for the community.

00:47:14.000 So in the forums...

00:47:18.000 Sometimes somebody makes a question about a position, so the masters will be involved in answers if they want, and they will be highlighted because that's his opinion, that's my opinion.

00:47:29.000 So people, the community is going to start to evaluate what's beneficial and what's negative, what the master has to say.

00:47:36.000 So it creates a network which is most needed to unify the community.

00:47:41.000 I see the community, should they completely split?

00:47:44.000 You know, some federations have their own circuits, some others.

00:47:48.000 So it's 30 events on one side, another 30 on the other side, and then has, you know, Naga 7, Grappler Quest, have Dream, have IBJJF. So all this is completely disorganized and completely split.

00:48:06.000 So my intention is bringing to the community a sense of Of unification.

00:48:14.000 Based on this information, who is good for everyone.

00:48:18.000 Like another important point is have contributors from all over to bringing the reports of what's happening in this event, who is the champion, who is that, news and everything.

00:48:29.000 Because some magazines today, they're completely partial.

00:48:32.000 They just will talk and explain about their athletes or in their society.

00:48:37.000 It does not cover the whole community.

00:48:40.000 So through this information, this solid, efficient, general information, the whole community will be informed, will be connected, will be asking and being listened.

00:48:56.000 So I think that's very important for the community.

00:49:00.000 Another big pillar of our federation is the competition aspect, which...

00:49:08.000 By changing rules, we restore effectiveness.

00:49:11.000 How we do that?

00:49:14.000 Cutting the advantages, because the advantage for me is like a ball in the ring.

00:49:20.000 It's just touch the ring, doesn't make a point.

00:49:23.000 How are you going to make a half point?

00:49:25.000 It's very hard to interpret what is really real and what is not.

00:49:30.000 It doesn't matter how many goals you try and hit the post.

00:49:36.000 The score is what matters, you know?

00:49:38.000 So a half point just creates a controversy and interpretation for the referee.

00:49:43.000 So it becomes a very confused way.

00:49:46.000 So back to the reality, you just go for clear points.

00:49:50.000 And also, another important thing is...

00:49:54.000 Give minus points for stalling positions.

00:49:58.000 What is a stalling position?

00:50:00.000 It's a position where you hold with the intention to preserve the position, to preserve the control of the dynamic of the fight.

00:50:10.000 You're stalling because you want to be in control by using what I call an anti-jiu-jitsu move, which prevents you from keeping action.

00:50:23.000 Because the idea is both engage and see who's the best, who's submit, who's passing, who's mounting, who's getting.

00:50:30.000 And sometimes people, to minimize that risk, they're kind of keeping the situation under control, a position they can control the sleeves, putting the leg, entangle it, so he's comfortable to...

00:50:42.000 To proceed until the point he needs to make a little advantage.

00:50:46.000 So this diminishes the effectiveness because this kind of strategy doesn't work in real life.

00:50:51.000 So they'll be punished for that?

00:50:53.000 Yes.

00:50:54.000 So they grab and the referee comes and says, hey man, watch your grip.

00:50:57.000 After 20 seconds, he already gets a minus point.

00:51:00.000 After then, he's going to get minus again and then eventually he's going to be de-kill.

00:51:05.000 Is it subject to interpretation whether a guy is stalling or if they're canceling each other out?

00:51:12.000 I'm sorry?

00:51:13.000 Is it subject to interpretation, whether it's stalling or whether or not they're canceling each other out?

00:51:18.000 Like, one guy's trying to advance, the other guy's stopping him for advance, they're just both looking for the opening?

00:51:23.000 Yeah, but you can see easily who wants to progress and who wants to just control the position.

00:51:30.000 For this guy who don't want to progress, he will be...

00:51:33.000 I mean, you can know it.

00:51:34.000 I mean, in theory, maybe it's...

00:51:36.000 But if you see it, you can see who's just trying to minimize the action and try to wait for their opportunity, and the other one who's trying to make it happen, you know?

00:51:45.000 What about submission-only tournaments?

00:51:47.000 Do you like those?

00:51:48.000 The Federation also have this kind of rule.

00:51:50.000 We have two sets of rules.

00:51:52.000 The point rules, system for tournaments, And we have the challenge rules for matchmaking like the Metamorris kind or any promoter who will try to do something like the baddest purple belt. 0.94

00:52:09.000 So it's no way division.

00:52:11.000 There's no time limit.

00:52:12.000 He can approach the time as he wishes.

00:52:15.000 Like, okay, we'll be 20 minutes match.

00:52:17.000 We'll be 15 minutes match.

00:52:19.000 We'll be half hour match.

00:52:20.000 What do you think about Gracie Worlds and Gracie Nationals?

00:52:22.000 It's all submission only.

00:52:24.000 And after 15 minutes, if there's no submission, they're both disqualified.

00:52:28.000 Yeah, I disagree with that disqualification.

00:52:32.000 I spoke with Rose.

00:52:34.000 And she maybe... 1.00

00:52:35.000 I mean, we're going to get into the better for the jiu-jitsu.

00:52:38.000 But for me, it's the same rules in case of a bracket.

00:52:42.000 So I don't feel like...

00:52:46.000 Both who kind of didn't submit should be disqualified because sometimes in the same bracket, two tough guys, they fight each other and they could not submit to each other.

00:52:58.000 And then some two, I mean, halfway.

00:53:02.000 Busters.

00:53:02.000 Yes.

00:53:03.000 One submits the other.

00:53:04.000 So this guy advances and those two are disqualified.

00:53:07.000 So I don't think this is fair.

00:53:09.000 Somebody has to come in from this.

00:53:11.000 So the way I did is the first round goes full force.

00:53:16.000 And if the 20 minutes end or 30 minutes end, depends on the arrangement, after the 30 minutes you ask the guy, you want to fight?

00:53:23.000 The guy say yes.

00:53:24.000 And then you ask the guy, you want to fight?

00:53:26.000 Yes.

00:53:26.000 So it's another round.

00:53:28.000 So in the second round, we still don't have positive points.

00:53:32.000 But every time the guy put himself in a position and he start to defend himself without attempting to escape or giving the combat, just protecting or resting or whatever, the referee is going to say, hey man, keep going, acting or you're going to be penalized.

00:53:48.000 So we have negative points for diminishing of combativity.

00:53:54.000 So at the end of the second round, if we see, like, somebody with minus points, this one will be the loser, you know, because he displays less desire or less guess or less techniques to be on top of the competition.

00:54:12.000 So he's minus because he's defending all the time, he was tired or whatever, so he gets minus points and then...

00:54:20.000 The other guy advances for the bracket.

00:54:22.000 So that's the only change for the submission.

00:54:25.000 Are you familiar with my...

00:54:27.000 I have a submission-only tournament as well.

00:54:29.000 I don't know if you're aware of that.

00:54:30.000 And it's very similar to Gracie Worlds, Gracie Nationals.

00:54:33.000 But both...

00:54:35.000 It's 15-minute matches, but both competitors aren't disqualified.

00:54:39.000 We actually have an overtime round.

00:54:41.000 And in the overtime, it's kind of like soccer.

00:54:44.000 I didn't want overtimes to be determined by wrestling in a lot of tournaments.

00:54:50.000 It's like you go into overtime and whoever's the best wrestler wins because you get the takedown and then they hold and then they win.

00:54:55.000 So a lot of wrestlers can go into tournaments and go, I'm just going to stall for regulation.

00:55:00.000 Take it into overtime and win with my wrestling.

00:55:02.000 So in order to eliminate that, I wanted to know who the best submission artist is, not who the best wrestler is.

00:55:08.000 So my overtime, each person, like if we went into overtime, you get to start on my back with the leg hooks and an over-under, and then we go.

00:55:17.000 If you submit me, then I get to go on your back, and if you escape, you win.

00:55:22.000 But if I submit you, then we go another round.

00:55:25.000 It's like extra innings.

00:55:27.000 And then the next round, you take my back, I escape, I take your back, and I submit you, I win.

00:55:32.000 That's in a dreamland, of course, but that way we get to find out who the best is at submitting.

00:55:40.000 We couldn't finish in regulation, now we go into overtime, and we start on each other's backs like free kicks.

00:55:45.000 Yeah, but I think this is valid, but you take the element of conquer the position.

00:55:51.000 I think...

00:55:52.000 The fight has to be...

00:55:54.000 Even standing up, if the wrestlers start to avoid...

00:55:57.000 Any avoiding of combativity is supposed to be penalized, but...

00:56:02.000 You could fake that, though.

00:56:04.000 A wrestler could fake it, like take shots.

00:56:06.000 One thing is for sure.

00:56:08.000 In this new federation, in the same way we have the Master Council, we're going to have the Development Council, and you're going to be invited right now to be part, because I see people like...

00:56:21.000 You guys are not just know the deal, know the sport, but also has opinion to make.

00:56:27.000 And my idea is not to ride my rules in stone.

00:56:31.000 My idea is to follow the best pattern to create more effectiveness and more dynamic aspect for the sport.

00:56:38.000 So the Federation has this open heart and open eye and open ears to kind of make the best conclusions for the sport.

00:56:47.000 So all the rules can be changed.

00:56:49.000 Everything can be adapted to a better, more defined display of effectiveness.

00:56:56.000 That's a beautiful thing.

00:56:57.000 When will this go into effect and when will your first event be?

00:57:00.000 No, no.

00:57:00.000 I'm not playing only in events.

00:57:03.000 My idea is to service.

00:57:05.000 So I'm going to service through the information.

00:57:08.000 I'm going to service to giving reference and giving guidance for the events.

00:57:13.000 But even though they don't do my rules, I will legitimize everybody and I will start to relate the records of every event, who won here, who won there, and I start to put everybody to become part of the same profile,

00:57:29.000 the same mindset, and I will hammer the idea of why we don't do the best rules for Jiu-Jitsu.

00:57:38.000 Because I bet the champions today, many of them, they're going to say, oh, I don't like, I prefer to do this or that.

00:57:44.000 But I'm not here to educate those champions.

00:57:46.000 I'm here to educate 85% of the competitive community today who is still white and blue belt.

00:57:54.000 Those guys, they're being misled to understand the strategy of the game to get the medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life.

00:58:05.000 So...

00:58:07.000 The change of rules, aside of the education aspect of the Federation, is very important.

00:58:13.000 How I see the service of the Federation in the educational level.

00:58:19.000 Because a lot of times, guys coming from the competitive background, from white to purple to brown and black, so they become tough competitors, sometimes champions, they become famous, then they open the school.

00:58:33.000 And as they open the school, They teach what they know.

00:58:38.000 Their techniques will make them feel champions.

00:58:41.000 So great.

00:58:42.000 But this is just like a percentage of what he's supposed to know to teach.

00:58:48.000 Because not everybody wants to go there to compete.

00:58:52.000 Not everybody has the skills and the toughness to engage in that kind of level of training.

00:58:59.000 I feel like jiu-jitsu is there to favor the community as a whole.

00:59:03.000 I feel like the instructor, he has to be knowledgeable about self-defense, about self-defense for women, about programs for kids, kids' class, and law enforcement.

00:59:16.000 So as the instructor becomes certified, I mean, I'm not going to validate all the skills, The instructors, all the black belts today. 0.75

00:59:27.000 I'm not going to say you don't deserve it, but I will suggest to them to get certified through the Federation, because they will get elements for their schools to become more efficient, retain more students, have better teaching programs,

00:59:43.000 which are the core of effectiveness.

00:59:48.000 The other day I heard some black belts being asked for a student about self-defense.

00:59:54.000 He said, no, no, if you want to self-defense, you go to Grav Maga. 0.90

00:59:59.000 And I felt that this is just something that goes straight on my heart because for me the core of Jiu-Jitsu is self-defense.

01:00:07.000 If you don't know self-defense, basically you don't know Jiu-Jitsu.

01:00:11.000 You have to be ready to defend yourself from a slapping, from a hug, from a headlock, from whatever.

01:00:17.000 And if you don't have those concepts lined up, you become sometimes very tough, with tough years, with very good grip, endurance forever.

01:00:25.000 But you're still counting on your own physicality.

01:00:29.000 You cannot teach that for children or for women. 1.00

01:00:33.000 So by having the Federation presenting those courses and spreading this all over the world, The teacher will have much more elements to have more students, to have more knowledge to feed his students in different levels and make a different job with Jiu Jitsu.

01:00:54.000 So this is beautiful.

01:00:56.000 So your motivation is just to improve Jiu Jitsu?

01:00:58.000 Yes.

01:00:58.000 You see a bad direction that it's going in the competition?

01:01:01.000 Jiu Jitsu is losing effectiveness and we have to restore that by informing very well, by Understand the competition as a progressive thing to make you a better fighter, not to make a better competitor.

01:01:14.000 You know, if you're a competitor, sometimes a taekwondo guy, he's a great competitor, but he has nothing to do with real life.

01:01:21.000 I mean, you want to be a fighter.

01:01:24.000 Jiu-jitsu is something you learn to protect your honor, to protect your dignity, to represent, to fight, to make money in the cage, whatever your goals are.

01:01:35.000 Jiu Jitsu is there to support you in a very profound and deep cause which is effectiveness.

01:01:42.000 The transition between jujitsu and jujitsu competition and mixed martial arts is a very tricky transition for a lot of jujitsu fighters.

01:01:50.000 Yes, especially when they don't have that kind of strong background.

01:01:56.000 I think if everybody fights like Krohn, we don't have to set up rules because he wants to accelerate.

01:02:03.000 He wants to be progressive.

01:02:05.000 He wants to win by points. 0.91

01:02:08.000 He wants to go to the kill.

01:02:10.000 So guys like him or Buchecha or some other great athletes, they go and they choose to fight openly, you know?

01:02:18.000 To see.

01:02:19.000 Some other fights, they choose strategic elements to just give them more chances.

01:02:26.000 Just points.

01:02:27.000 Just points.

01:02:28.000 Just advantage.

01:02:28.000 Sometimes a 10-minute fight, nothing happens, just two advantages.

01:02:32.000 That's terrible.

01:02:33.000 I mean, I don't expect to see this in a fight and nobody expects.

01:02:36.000 So, by changing rules, we increase effectiveness.

01:02:40.000 We create a more dynamic fight.

01:02:42.000 It's more interesting to see.

01:02:43.000 You know?

01:02:44.000 Nobody wants to see something boring.

01:02:46.000 And we create...

01:02:49.000 Under this concept, the possibility to unify the whole community, not only this particular association or this federation, but everybody in the same part.

01:03:01.000 And then, without taking anything from nobody, my vision is to create a worldwide circuit of jiu-jitsu, which represents The same thing, the ASP for surf or the ATT for tennis,

01:03:19.000 which brings major players, like big sponsors and television for the sport.

01:03:27.000 So first is unified, try to unify the rules, try to create effectiveness, try to give a better condition for the teacher, for the school owner, for the independent promoter.

01:03:38.000 Because I cannot think about, okay, I'm going to start to make my own circus, and I don't validate nobody, it's just me, like other people do.

01:03:47.000 So that's a wrong way to unify and educate the community and our culture for the future.

01:03:54.000 Krohn said publicly that...

01:03:56.000 He feels that part of the problem, the stalling problem, is the holding of the sleeves.

01:04:03.000 That's what I think, too.

01:04:04.000 I totally agree with him.

01:04:05.000 I think the fact that you have to have your sleeve tight because then your opponent can't grab it.

01:04:12.000 I think that is so backwards.

01:04:14.000 I think that it should be illegal to grab the sleeve.

01:04:18.000 Illegal.

01:04:18.000 I think it should be illegal.

01:04:20.000 I think it's possible to be legal.

01:04:22.000 What is unacceptable is that grip promotes only A cool-off situation.

01:04:29.000 I can grab anywhere I want if my intention is to progress.

01:04:34.000 If I start to say, okay, coming to me, coming to Papa, and I stay here waiting to waste your energy, and then when you make a mistake, I sweep you, that's kind of weak in your mindset, weak in your progressiveness, weak in your effectiveness.

01:04:47.000 But what if he's stuck there?

01:04:48.000 Like, he has the sleeve and he's stuck because he's trying to pass.

01:04:51.000 And if he lets go of the sleeve, then you're going to pass.

01:04:53.000 And you're kind of just stuck there.

01:04:55.000 And you're like, I can't let go of the sleeve because...

01:04:57.000 Let it go, man.

01:04:58.000 Let it go and go for the risk.

01:04:59.000 Don't you think that would cause problems with the ref and the ref's interpretation of what's stalling?

01:05:03.000 No.

01:05:04.000 Whatever is holding, if you're not moving, is stalling.

01:05:09.000 So you should have the hip movement and the angles and the quick fast on the knees, whatever you do.

01:05:15.000 Because if the guy don't make a complete pass, he's still like almost no advantage.

01:05:21.000 So it's just keep going.

01:05:22.000 Do you think it's less of an issue with no gi? 0.96

01:05:27.000 Yes, stall is less because in no gi you can stall in 50-50s and different things.

01:05:32.000 It will be easier.

01:05:33.000 But you have much less elements to submit.

01:05:37.000 I feel like the Nogi is just take maybe 70% of the submission options.

01:05:43.000 Still some classic ones, but not that many.

01:05:47.000 So I feel like it's just less options, but it's still exactly the same fight.

01:05:52.000 When you did the Budo Challenge, we went to see that.

01:05:55.000 It was a great, great event.

01:05:56.000 What has changed since your ideas when you put that on today?

01:06:00.000 My ideas are the same.

01:06:02.000 The Budo Challenge is a great rule.

01:06:04.000 For a stream event, for a prime television event, it's not a sport competition event.

01:06:10.000 Because it aims the submission and only pros competing.

01:06:14.000 And it's like a premium sensational thing, which has no time for stalling.

01:06:20.000 It's all pushing forward, so the whole pressure.

01:06:23.000 I think it's almost that, but in the tournaments it has to be a little more sportive.

01:06:29.000 We have to have points, we have to have a time limit, which is accordingly to the...

01:06:33.000 The belt and so.

01:06:34.000 But it's the idea, the concept, a progressive concept of going to the submission has to be embraced.

01:06:41.000 I mean, it has to be in the whole mindset for every fighter, you know.

01:06:45.000 It doesn't change.

01:06:46.000 The way you fight has to be focused on the, submit the guy to be the best one out there.

01:06:53.000 When is your first big tournament?

01:06:54.000 Are you planning on having a big world?

01:06:56.000 I want to have, like in October, the first event.

01:07:00.000 But I already have, for example, next week, in the second and third, the Vulcan Open.

01:07:06.000 They will apply the new rules.

01:07:08.000 And it's all testing.

01:07:09.000 We're going to test the rules to see.

01:07:11.000 Because the idea is a positive, beneficial idea for the sport.

01:07:15.000 And if we need to adjust a little more and change, like I said, nothing is on the stone yet.

01:07:21.000 And we're going to allow the thing to, you know, hearing people and seeing the conclusions because the mission is very positive and the means will be adaptable.

01:07:33.000 That's a beautiful thing.

01:07:34.000 Yes.

01:07:34.000 Yeah, it is a beautiful thing.

01:07:35.000 I'm very happy.

01:07:36.000 You've seen jujitsu progress from the time you were a boy to what it is today.

01:07:41.000 I mean, it's got to be an amazing thing.

01:07:43.000 An amazing thing also to have taken part in those first initial invasion moments when you guys came and you, like, there's so many of the Gracie in action videos where, you know, Horian is battling with the karate guys and, you know, you're battling with judo guys and people that had no idea what jujitsu was.

01:08:01.000 Yes.

01:08:01.000 I remember very clearly when I saw the first Ultimate Fighting Championship that I saw was number two.

01:08:07.000 They had a video tape that was out, and I watched it, and I watched Hoist win, and I remember thinking to myself, man, I didn't even know that there was anything like this out there.

01:08:17.000 I had no idea.

01:08:18.000 I had been in martial arts my whole life.

01:08:19.000 I had no idea that someone could do something like this.

01:08:21.000 I was doing karate, and man, I watched UFC 2 first, because UFC 1 They didn't have any highlights to show.

01:08:28.000 Well, they didn't release it.

01:08:29.000 Their idea was they were going to release two first and then they were going to release one for some reason.

01:08:33.000 No, but UFC 1 was.

01:08:34.000 They did have pay-per-view for UFC 1. Yeah, but it wasn't available on VHS. Yes.

01:08:38.000 And then so once I heard that UFC 1 was real, my friend said, hey, that...

01:08:43.000 Because I saw a preview for it and I thought, oh, that's...

01:08:46.000 Fake.

01:08:46.000 That's like WWF. That's not real.

01:08:48.000 So I ignored it.

01:08:49.000 And then my friend came home one day, my roommate, and said, hey, that Ultimate Challenge thing, it's real.

01:08:54.000 Some guy at Guitar Center told me it was real.

01:08:56.000 He said some Iranian guy was just choking people out.

01:09:00.000 He would just grab them by the throat. 0.96

01:09:01.000 He said Iranian. 0.71

01:09:02.000 The big sumo wrestler spit the tooth in the audience.

01:09:07.000 My friend, the guy who told me, didn't see it.

01:09:08.000 He heard it secondhand.

01:09:09.000 So he said, Yeah, some Iranian apparently was grabbing people by the throat and choking everybody out.

01:09:15.000 I said, some Iranian? 1.00

01:09:16.000 I go, he didn't fight.

01:09:17.000 I was doing karate for six months.

01:09:19.000 I go, it wasn't a karate guy, was it?

01:09:21.000 He goes, yeah, he beat karate, he beat boxers.

01:09:23.000 I go, by choking them out like this?

01:09:25.000 He goes, yeah, that's what they told me.

01:09:27.000 And I go, so the second one came out.

01:09:29.000 My friend called me and goes, the ultimate challenge thing is coming out again.

01:09:33.000 I go, tape it, tape it.

01:09:34.000 So I got home and I watched it.

01:09:36.000 And man, I hated Hoist Gracie in the opening rounds. 1.00

01:09:39.000 Because I wanted the Karate guy to win.

01:09:41.000 When he fought Minokia Jihara, I'm like, that was my hero.

01:09:44.000 I didn't even know who he was, but he did Karate, and I thought, okay, he's my hero.

01:09:47.000 But on the other side was Pat Smith, and I didn't like him.

01:09:51.000 And then I didn't like Hoist either, but then by the time the finals came, I fell in love with Hoist.

01:09:55.000 Like, go Hoist!

01:09:57.000 By the time the finals hit, I was in love with him, and I go, I gotta find this.

01:10:01.000 Because I wrestled in high school a couple years, And I thought, either this is primitive wrestling or it's super advanced wrestling.

01:10:07.000 I didn't know what it was.

01:10:08.000 So I went in.

01:10:09.000 I found Jean-Jacques Machado.

01:10:10.000 I went in there and I got choked out 37 times by a purple belt by Dave Meyer. 1.00

01:10:16.000 Dave Meyer.

01:10:17.000 I remember Dave.

01:10:18.000 And I remember thinking, one day I'm going to be able to do this with someone who just walked in.

01:10:23.000 I was so, from that point on, I was obsessed with it.

01:10:28.000 This is like a changing life experience.

01:10:30.000 Yes.

01:10:30.000 What was it like for you to be there, to not compete, and knowing that you were better than your brother?

01:10:36.000 There's all this talk about why you didn't compete in the UFC. I come here to support Hordeon and the cause of spreading the art.

01:10:49.000 And at one point, I was Horian's soldiers for whatever.

01:10:54.000 And at another point, I decided to follow my own path.

01:11:01.000 And of course, keeping the alliance, but going in my own direction.

01:11:07.000 And then Horian called me and asked me to train Horian.

01:11:11.000 I didn't know why.

01:11:12.000 And then he said, oh, I plan to do some events.

01:11:14.000 I said, okay, let's do it.

01:11:16.000 So I was his coach for the first and second event.

01:11:21.000 And then somebody asked me through Eric Paulson and the assistant of Denino Santo, Yuri Nakamura.

01:11:33.000 Yes.

01:11:33.000 He was in Shoro.

01:11:34.000 Shoro, yes.

01:11:35.000 So he sent me an invitation to participate in a Shoro competition.

01:11:40.000 And then they sent me a tape to see what the rules are about.

01:11:45.000 And I didn't like the rules, but I liked the locks.

01:11:48.000 So I started training the locks and I said, no, man, this is, I mean, there's no, I don't like it.

01:11:52.000 So, and then we start to immediately say, I don't want to do.

01:11:57.000 And then my ex-wife, much more calm, started to negotiate with the guys and started to say, but if we change the rules, so it was kind of... 0.62

01:12:07.000 Talk and talk and eventually they decide to change the rules for a new open rules like and then I advise the way supposed to be the rules so we create the new VALITUDO 94 and then When I signed the...

01:12:20.000 I mean, when I about to sign the contract, Horion called me and said, Hickson, what are you doing?

01:12:25.000 He said, yeah, man, I'd be invited to fight in Japan.

01:12:27.000 I said, no, you should not go because this goes against the family.

01:12:31.000 UFC is our game.

01:12:32.000 We should be in support of the family and stay here as Roy's coach.

01:12:36.000 I said, man, that's not exactly what I vision for myself because, I mean, I'm here being coach.

01:12:42.000 I get one penny.

01:12:44.000 You put a lot of dollars in your pocket.

01:12:46.000 You give me nothing.

01:12:47.000 I mean...

01:12:48.000 You give me some money for me to sit on the bench, we are in business, but if you give me nothing, the guys offer me a lot of money to go.

01:12:55.000 You don't even have to give me what they offer.

01:12:58.000 You just have to give me some.

01:13:00.000 I said, no, no, you should do it for the love of the fans.

01:13:02.000 I said, yeah, man, I love you guys, but you love me and you give me nothing.

01:13:05.000 How am I going to love you?

01:13:07.000 So I went to Japan and deal in my tank and started winning there.

01:13:12.000 And then I got my direction towards Japan, which was very good for me.

01:13:19.000 The community there, the education, the culture there was...

01:13:23.000 It was very, I mean, I feel like home.

01:13:26.000 And that's pretty much where I direct myself, my career, my end of my career to Japan.

01:13:34.000 But now Crown is back to see what's going to happen.

01:13:38.000 So, were you worried at all with Royce doing the UFC? Did you think?

01:13:43.000 Because he was the youngest one of the brothers, right?

01:13:45.000 He didn't compete as much.

01:13:48.000 Were you worried at all that maybe it was...

01:13:50.000 Yes, but the idea, the primary idea of Royce going in is because he was not the best one.

01:13:55.000 But he was something that is going to be a good test for him.

01:13:58.000 It's a good, you know, to break the ice and stuff.

01:14:01.000 But not exactly...

01:14:03.000 If something happens, it's always a backup.

01:14:05.000 You were the backup?

01:14:06.000 Yes.

01:14:06.000 So I was there to just jump in in case.

01:14:08.000 So if someone beat Hoyce, you would have jumped into the UFC? Oh, immediately.

01:14:13.000 What about after the chemo incident?

01:14:15.000 What about after that?

01:14:16.000 After that, I was already engaged in Japan.

01:14:18.000 It's too late.

01:14:19.000 Yes.

01:14:20.000 You had a contract with them over there?

01:14:22.000 Yeah, not for many fights.

01:14:24.000 I never did many fights in one contract.

01:14:27.000 But I felt like...

01:14:29.000 Hordeon created a very awkward situation, you know, and was a kind of little division, you know, so I was not appealing to go there and show my support to Hoist and be there just...

01:14:45.000 So I allowed him to have his own destiny.

01:14:48.000 There was also the talk that Hoyce was a slender guy, he was younger, he wasn't as intimidating as you, and that it sort of accentuated the idea of Jiu Jitsu, that Jiu Jitsu was technique-based, whereas you're a scary guy.

01:15:00.000 You're a scary guy now, but you were a really scary guy then.

01:15:02.000 You were the only... 0.69

01:15:03.000 Muscular.

01:15:03.000 You were the only yoked, shredded Gracie.

01:15:06.000 You were like 185, right?

01:15:08.000 Something like that?

01:15:09.000 Yeah, depends.

01:15:10.000 I start...

01:15:11.000 Zulu was like... 0.89

01:15:12.000 I have 74 kilos.

01:15:14.000 What's that?

01:15:15.000 74 kilos, maybe 180. 180, okay.

01:15:18.000 Maybe.

01:15:18.000 Maybe a little less.

01:15:20.000 And then, my last fight in Japan, I did with...

01:15:25.000 Funaki?

01:15:26.000 Yes, I was 195. Nice.

01:15:30.000 Because he's like 220, right?

01:15:31.000 Funaki?

01:15:32.000 Funaki is 230. 230 something.

01:15:34.000 And then...

01:15:36.000 You know, I was making a preparation to go heavier than this, sometimes even 200, and then cut down to get my best shape.

01:15:47.000 When we spoke, it was 2000, when we had dinner, was it 2005 or something like that?

01:15:52.000 Somewhere around there?

01:15:54.000 You were still thinking about fighting like Fedor and the higher level guys.

01:15:58.000 Yes, yes.

01:15:59.000 None of that ever materialized, though?

01:16:01.000 Never, yes.

01:16:06.000 After my son's departure in 2000, I was about to make the best contract of my life.

01:16:13.000 I just finished with Funaki and I received a proposal, a millionaire proposal, to fight Sakuraba.

01:16:18.000 He was still on the top.

01:16:20.000 And then, my son's departure, I have to have, like, a moment for the family and regroup as a whole.

01:16:27.000 By departure, your son passed away.

01:16:29.000 He passed away, yes.

01:16:30.000 So...

01:16:31.000 It was a moment I could escape by doing a fight.

01:16:35.000 Say, okay, I'm going to focus on the fight.

01:16:37.000 But I felt like my family will be completely unprotected and unsupported.

01:16:43.000 So I said, no, I don't care about the fight.

01:16:47.000 So I spent about two years to make the whole family feel good again.

01:16:51.000 And we all...

01:16:52.000 Regain strength and happiness again.

01:16:55.000 So, after that, I started to get a free agent for a couple of years.

01:17:01.000 We tried to make something closer to what I have, but the whole business itself in Japan, the fact that Sakuraba lost for Vanderlei and things like that, diminished that kind of huge purse.

01:17:16.000 And then I felt like, no, I just want to fight if it's that much.

01:17:20.000 So I started to be very resistant about my next fight, some opportunities, but I kind of pushed away.

01:17:27.000 And to the point, in 2008, I was already moved back to Brazil for a while.

01:17:33.000 A guy from Texas invited me to compete in a new event and pulled me to fight feather.

01:17:39.000 And I was looking for that, but I had a little injury on my hip.

01:17:45.000 And until I be able to feel good to train, I could not sign.

01:17:50.000 And because he has a deadline in terms of promotion and such, I could not sign without having 100% confidence because if I sign, I will fight.

01:18:01.000 I'm not going to...

01:18:03.000 And I feel I have the time I want to get.

01:18:05.000 So I said, you know what?

01:18:06.000 I don't want it.

01:18:08.000 And in my heart, I went to the beach and said, thank you, God, for everything I have.

01:18:13.000 I'm out.

01:18:13.000 So I stopped competing.

01:18:15.000 Not exactly the way I want, but I felt like I have to respect God's decision.

01:18:21.000 And I just don't want to just jeopardize my life properly.

01:18:26.000 For the money, you know.

01:18:27.000 Okay, the guy put me money, I go there.

01:18:29.000 So I feel like I have to go to represent Jiu Jitsu.

01:18:32.000 Either I go 100% or, you know, I hope somebody else coming.

01:18:37.000 And I'll see what Krohn does.

01:18:39.000 I'm sure he's going to do great.

01:18:41.000 Out of all the great fighters that you saw during that time, from the time Well, Hoyce entered the UFC till the time that you retired.

01:18:47.000 The guys like Mark Coleman and Bas Rutten and Fedor.

01:18:51.000 Was there any that you really wish that you could have had an opportunity to match up against?

01:18:56.000 I always visualizing myself against the number one.

01:19:00.000 You know, I could not even think about so...

01:19:04.000 At one point it was Coleman, the other point was, you know, I mean, you name it, the champions.

01:19:11.000 And then Fedor gets a rise and makes like a big expression.

01:19:15.000 So I could not think about the other guy to represent Jiu Jitsu.

01:19:19.000 You know, I have always true vision of that.

01:19:22.000 But the set of rules are different.

01:19:24.000 At the time, we could express technique with more because we had time.

01:19:30.000 Somebody asked me, oh yeah, you have only a few fights in MMA. I said, no, I never fought MMA. I always fought valetudo because MMA is a different animal.

01:19:41.000 You go there for three rounds, five minutes, It's better to have offensive techniques than defensive techniques.

01:19:47.000 The defense is not going to do good for you.

01:19:49.000 It's going to do good if you have at least one round 10 minutes and then another.

01:19:54.000 So if you have, like, my fights are endless rounds of 15 minutes.

01:19:58.000 It's endless rounds of 5 minutes.

01:20:00.000 So in that way, you can prepare yourself for a different strategy.

01:20:05.000 You know, you have to follow...

01:20:07.000 the movements and you cannot just go all the way empty your gas and then fill up and empty again because you know if you empty your gas in the wrong time you're in trouble So all the technique and stretching your gas and be calm and finding comfortable positions,

01:20:25.000 those are stripped right now.

01:20:27.000 Now it becomes a very extreme, a very physical.

01:20:29.000 You see athletes in the same weight division, but a guy who fights in the 155 walks around with 180, 185. So the technology on the sport today is a huge thing, the physicality.

01:20:43.000 That's why technique is only a piece of it.

01:20:47.000 You know, what Krohn does today is not only training Jiu Jitsu and become comfortable in the skills.

01:20:52.000 He's training like a dog and all the elements he can do to become athletic and explosive and physical and going to lost weight like everybody else.

01:21:04.000 Plus...

01:21:05.000 The technique, which I feel at one point will be the edge he needs to make the difference.

01:21:10.000 Do you think there's something missing in today's mixed martial arts that the original jiu-jitsu sort of expressed?

01:21:17.000 This idea of having an open round, having a no limit fight.

01:21:21.000 Is there room for that today, do you think?

01:21:23.000 Or do you think we're hampered by this idea of a three-hour pay-per-view window or a two-hour television window?

01:21:29.000 Yeah, it's funny because, you know, the other day I got caught watching a four-hour match in tennis.

01:21:36.000 You know, it was a great match.

01:21:38.000 It was long.

01:21:39.000 And it's still going.

01:21:40.000 Four hours?

01:21:41.000 Oh man, you see...

01:21:42.000 I have no idea they were that long.

01:21:44.000 Are they that long?

01:21:44.000 I have no idea either.

01:21:46.000 You see, Diopovic and Nadal in the, I think, French Open last year, it was five hours.

01:21:51.000 I don't even know what that is.

01:21:51.000 Five hours?

01:21:52.000 Five hours nonstop, man.

01:21:53.000 And they go to the tiebreak and start again and the advantage.

01:21:56.000 It was unbelievable.

01:21:58.000 So if you're passionate about tennis...

01:22:01.000 Sometimes the game can be like 45 minutes.

01:22:04.000 Sometimes it can be a couple of hours.

01:22:06.000 Because you're there in the action.

01:22:08.000 So for me...

01:22:10.000 When we're talking about engagement...

01:22:13.000 We're talking about...

01:22:14.000 I mean...

01:22:16.000 The best one out there.

01:22:17.000 And when I see a fight after 15 minutes...

01:22:21.000 Because somebody punched once...

01:22:23.000 Or fell on top...

01:22:24.000 Or just gave a throw...

01:22:27.000 Both guys stand up.

01:22:28.000 They both desire.

01:22:29.000 And then the time is over.

01:22:30.000 Who wants the fight?

01:22:31.000 In my opinion, supposed to be a draw.

01:22:34.000 Because how the guy can win just because one more point?

01:22:38.000 The guys are warriors.

01:22:39.000 The guys are willing to go.

01:22:40.000 So, it's always like halfway to what's supposed to be.

01:22:44.000 You know, because, okay, you have to decide by points.

01:22:48.000 Okay, so, I mean, it's hard because, you know, sometimes the guy even have the best of it.

01:22:55.000 But that doesn't guarantee if the fight goes longer, if it's still that, because toughness, resilience, and heart, and technique, they all going to pay, in one point, going to pay a big situation, you know?

01:23:09.000 So, for me, not the rules today in the UFC and such, doesn't translate perfectly.

01:23:18.000 The best guy out there.

01:23:20.000 Translates the most agile, the most tough, the one who connect first, you know, because sometimes the fight can be either way.

01:23:28.000 Whoever connects first, whoever makes the first, can win.

01:23:32.000 So, it's kind of hard to evaluate.

01:23:34.000 But if you put two guys in the cage, and okay, man.

01:23:38.000 Whoever gets out first is the winner.

01:23:41.000 And that's a different animal because you have to be technical, you have to be patient, you have to be...

01:23:47.000 So, you know, I can see...

01:23:50.000 First is the expectation.

01:23:54.000 It's all in the...

01:23:55.000 How Crohn is going to do.

01:23:57.000 But if it confirms what I believe can be done, eventually...

01:24:03.000 I feel like Krohn will be comfortable to challenge anyone for a no-time limit fight.

01:24:09.000 Because, I mean, I don't care if it's Velasquez, I don't care if it's John Jones.

01:24:14.000 If Krohn do what he has to do, with the time he has to do, I believe on him.

01:24:20.000 Like, I believe myself.

01:24:21.000 If I have the health today and the physicality I like to have, I mean, I don't see a guy, just because he's winning on the cage, he can win me.

01:24:31.000 Because I don't see the opportunities happen on the cage, I'm not going to give those opportunities.

01:24:37.000 So, it's hard to say, but, you know, the weight division doesn't make too much difference for me if I have the time to cook and slow burn.

01:24:47.000 But if the things kind of...

01:24:48.000 If even in my weight division, 80 kilos, for example, if I'm going to fight a guy with 95 kilos and make a technology...

01:24:55.000 So I'm going to fight a different monster in five minutes rounds?

01:24:58.000 It's almost impossible.

01:25:00.000 How...

01:25:00.000 I mean...

01:25:01.000 So then that's kind of unbalanced now based on the extreme aspect of the sport, the physicality of the sport, and the technique that has to be applied.

01:25:10.000 So the difference between a fight and a match.

01:25:12.000 The difference between a fight and a sport.

01:25:14.000 And in a fight, they're just two guys going at each other.

01:25:17.000 And I agree that there's many, many, many fights where a guy win a 10-9 round, and another guy win the other 10-9 round, and then one guy win the final round, maybe 10-9.

01:25:26.000 Just for a little throw or something.

01:25:27.000 But it's a draw.

01:25:28.000 I agree.

01:25:29.000 It's a draw.

01:25:29.000 It's not done.

01:25:30.000 It's like sex with Without an orgasm. 0.95

01:25:32.000 It's not complete. 0.99

01:25:33.000 Yeah, and it normally happens.

01:25:35.000 I mean, sometimes beautiful knockouts, but sometimes, you know, it's just, you know, too much strength, too much physicality, and every time he goes to the floor, the guy immediately stands up because if he knows, if he stays on the ground, he's losing time and he's not going to be able to capitalize because the time is not as long as enough.

01:25:54.000 So that's kind of, you know, a gray area.

01:25:57.000 It doesn't have the appeal for me to see a good...

01:26:00.000 A good match.

01:26:02.000 What about when Hoist fought Sakuraba and they had that crazy 90 minute match?

01:26:05.000 Yes.

01:26:06.000 What about?

01:26:07.000 That was an idea of like having these long, long matches.

01:26:12.000 For us in Jiu Jitsu, we need time because we don't have...

01:26:15.000 I mean, we give the advantage of weight.

01:26:17.000 We give advantage of, you know, whatever.

01:26:20.000 So let's at least have the time for us to become strategical.

01:26:24.000 Would you have preferred that kind of a fight to be no rounds though?

01:26:27.000 Because that fight they broke up into a series of rounds. 0.91

01:26:29.000 Yeah, I mean, at that point, I felt like it was a lack of action.

01:26:34.000 I mean, Roy is supposed to fight better.

01:26:37.000 I was not on his side.

01:26:39.000 And I see a pattern on him to sometimes make little mistakes, which when I was there, I was focused on making him feel sharp.

01:26:48.000 And if I'm not there, I felt like a little fuzzy attitude mentally.

01:26:54.000 His focus was not...

01:26:55.000 So it's a lot of different elements for...

01:26:59.000 To justify it, you know?

01:27:01.000 Because I believe Royce has elements to beat Sakuraba, you know?

01:27:06.000 But he didn't, so...

01:27:08.000 He did the second time.

01:27:10.000 Yeah.

01:27:10.000 The rematch.

01:27:11.000 Yeah, he fought him the second time in LA, right?

01:27:13.000 Yeah.

01:27:15.000 Were you there when he fought him the second time in the rematch?

01:27:17.000 No.

01:27:18.000 You know he beat him, right?

01:27:21.000 Royce beat Sakuraba.

01:27:23.000 Yeah, the rematch.

01:27:26.000 You were aware of that, right?

01:27:27.000 No, I'm not.

01:27:28.000 Oh, okay.

01:27:29.000 Yeah, they had a rematch and he beat them here in LA. It was K-1, right?

01:27:31.000 It was K-1.

01:27:32.000 It was at the Coliseum.

01:27:33.000 Yeah, that was the first time Brock Lesnar fought, too.

01:27:36.000 Yeah.

01:27:37.000 Now, there's a lot of problems jujitsu guys have, world-class, mundial black belt champions have in MMA, is they get in the cage and...

01:27:49.000 I would say it's a big reason why they end up getting cut from the UFC. They end up fighting wrestlers.

01:27:56.000 Everyone at the top 10 is really hard to take down the UFC. So a jiu-jitsu guy will come in and he's fighting a guy who wrestled his whole life.

01:28:04.000 There's zero chance that he's going to be able to take down that wrestler.

01:28:07.000 So he's forced to kickbox.

01:28:09.000 So the wrestler is forcing the kickboxing fight because the jiu-jitsu guy can't take down the wrestler.

01:28:16.000 In those situations, Like, I don't know if you remember Noguera when he fought Tim Sylvia, the big giant guy, he could not take Tim Sylvia down.

01:28:26.000 So he eventually shot, Tim Sylvia sprawled a little bit, and then Noguera pulled guard.

01:28:31.000 He was on his back, he swept him, he got on top, and then he choked him out with a guillotine.

01:28:37.000 So in that situation, the guard pull saved Noguera.

01:28:41.000 What do you think about guard pulling?

01:28:43.000 I'm 100% confident in the guard.

01:28:48.000 Because what I see today in the display of great Jiu Jitsu fighters in the cage is they have the guard, but they have a sportive guard.

01:28:58.000 They don't have a valetudo guard.

01:28:59.000 They're not dangerous from the bottom.

01:29:02.000 So they become technicals from the bottom against the dangerous ground and pound.

01:29:07.000 So they're getting all that disadvantage.

01:29:11.000 So in my perspective, For example, Krohn.

01:29:15.000 He's been training to deal with tough wrestlers, tough boxers, but he don't try to apply wrestling against wrestling.

01:29:23.000 Because he's gonna need another life to become like a Schultz or like a Matt Hughes or like some other tough...

01:29:30.000 What is the strategy for Krohn when he fights a wrestler that he can't take down?

01:29:34.000 He brings to the guard.

01:29:35.000 So guard pulling is something that he's thinking about.

01:29:38.000 The guard is no other option.

01:29:40.000 On the ground, Jiu-Jitsu has to be happy on top and happier on the bottom.

01:29:45.000 Yes, people frown upon.

01:29:46.000 I'm a big advocate of pulling guard in MMA. There are fighters that have done it.

01:29:50.000 There's a guy named Paul Sass from England.

01:29:52.000 He pulls guard all the time.

01:29:53.000 He's a master of pulling guard.

01:29:54.000 He knows exactly how to do it.

01:29:56.000 He shoots deep.

01:29:57.000 The guy sprawls.

01:29:58.000 And as he's sprawling, he pulls guard.

01:29:59.000 And he puts people in triangles.

01:30:02.000 Nine triangle victories in a row.

01:30:04.000 But the triangle is risky.

01:30:06.000 Because once you know how to defend, like arm lock.

01:30:09.000 You're becoming available for ground and pound.

01:30:13.000 So if the guy is completely safe on not getting caught in the triangle, your attempts of techniques are kind of diminishing your capacity to survive and to defend yourself.

01:30:25.000 So you're attacking techniques from the bottom, but you're still on the reach.

01:30:29.000 Yes.

01:30:29.000 So the idea of a perfect valetudo guard is to save your distance so you don't get pounded by those surprising elbows like John John.

01:30:38.000 So they clinch over hook?

01:30:39.000 No, no, you cannot clinch.

01:30:40.000 You have to use the legs and you have to hit with the legs.

01:30:43.000 So it's always a striking from the bottom, you know?

01:30:47.000 So you don't believe that you should be clinched?

01:30:50.000 Only if the guy promotes that.

01:30:54.000 If he wants the space to hit you, you need to be comfortable and hit him back.

01:30:59.000 So it's a fight where...

01:31:00.000 Imagine a 12-year-old kid laying down on the ground with feet to you.

01:31:05.000 If he starts using the foot, it's going to be hard for even you as a big man to reach.

01:31:11.000 Yeah.

01:31:11.000 So it's no use of the legs.

01:31:13.000 People have no clue how to strike him, how to use.

01:31:17.000 I know in UFC has some illegal heel from the bottom. 1.00

01:31:20.000 Yeah.

01:31:21.000 But you still can use different strikes, you know.

01:31:23.000 You can even have the distance to survive and to be completely protected against elbows and...

01:31:29.000 The issue though that if someone can disengage, if you're on your back and you're trying to not clinch and not hold on to him, you're a jiu-jitsu practitioner, the guy can just disengage.

01:31:38.000 They can stand up.

01:31:39.000 Once he's disengaged, he's escaping from the fight.

01:31:42.000 I can stand up again and keep the same process of Cleaching.

01:31:47.000 So now, Krohn's in a situation where he's fighting a wrestler and he can't take him down.

01:31:53.000 Then he pulls guard.

01:31:54.000 Yes. 0.91

01:31:54.000 And then he opens up his legs to kick. 0.91

01:31:56.000 The guy stands up.

01:31:57.000 Now he's got to stand up again.

01:31:58.000 Yes.

01:31:59.000 So they could just keep doing that over and over again.

01:32:01.000 And if it's a wrestler like Chuck Liddell, who's an expert striker as well as a wrestler, very tough to take down, but also an expert striker.

01:32:09.000 When you get that guy to the ground, don't you want to optimize that opportunity as much as possible and hang on to him while you're on the bottom?

01:32:15.000 That depends.

01:32:16.000 Depends where the weight distribution is.

01:32:19.000 I have to obey the sense.

01:32:22.000 If he's on me, I will sweep him, I will be on his back in no time.

01:32:27.000 If he's away from me, if he wants to look for distance, I have to understand that and respect that and protect myself to don't get pounded.

01:32:35.000 You know?

01:32:35.000 And that process of, okay, I don't want to engage, he's moving back, and then you stand up.

01:32:40.000 In all this process, a lot of things happen.

01:32:43.000 What is important for a jiu-jitsu fighter is know everything about the anti-game of the striker.

01:32:52.000 I don't make Krone, I don't try to make Krone a good striker.

01:32:55.000 I want to make him comfortable to in and out.

01:32:58.000 I want to make very comfortable to fight inside with knees and elbows, you know, be dangerous inside, be comfortable on top, and be very comfortable on the bottom.

01:33:12.000 And the action, man.

01:33:13.000 Because it's a lot of...

01:33:14.000 Even though in those five minutes fight, it's a lot of action.

01:33:19.000 I mean, it's a lot of stalling.

01:33:20.000 It's a lot of...

01:33:22.000 It's a lot of disengaged.

01:33:24.000 I mean, they engage a little bit and then they separate.

01:33:26.000 And okay, now let's think.

01:33:28.000 Let's see who's fighting.

01:33:29.000 It's hard to see a guy who just goes like...

01:33:32.000 And I feel like the great element, the great strategy of Krohn is going to keep a consistent pressure.

01:33:39.000 That means he's not going to be studying or in a distance where the striker feels like waiting.

01:33:47.000 He's going to be either two out or two in.

01:33:50.000 And then once he's in, let's fight in fight, let's fight like, you know, elbows, whatever.

01:33:56.000 And then immediately the fight goes to the ground, no matter if it's on top or on the bottom.

01:34:01.000 And then the consistency of this, I feel like...

01:34:06.000 Opportunities will rise.

01:34:08.000 Do you watch MMA a lot today?

01:34:09.000 Yes.

01:34:10.000 Did you watch BJ Penn's last fight?

01:34:11.000 Yes.

01:34:12.000 That fight was very sad to me.

01:34:14.000 Very sad to watch.

01:34:15.000 And I was very frustrated watching it as a BJ Penn fan.

01:34:19.000 As a Frankie Edgar fan, I thought it was a great performance.

01:34:22.000 But one of the things that frustrates me about BJ is that he very rarely attacks from his back.

01:34:28.000 When he's on the bottom, he puts feet on the hips and he just kind of holds on.

01:34:33.000 Yes.

01:34:33.000 Maybe he was not exactly...

01:34:36.000 I don't know.

01:34:37.000 I mean, he did a poor game from the bottom in my perspective.

01:34:41.000 He's supposed to have a little more elements to not preserve his integrity, but also to attack, you know?

01:34:51.000 And I don't feel that, and I feel like, I mean, he's just not doing what he's supposed to do.

01:34:56.000 Eddie, we talked about that.

01:34:57.000 That sort of frustrated you a little bit too, right?

01:34:59.000 Yeah.

01:35:00.000 Yes.

01:35:01.000 I don't know if you're aware of this, Hickson, but I'm obsessed with...

01:35:04.000 I've been obsessed with developing the best guard for when they're striking.

01:35:09.000 I analyze it to death.

01:35:12.000 And the guard that I comprised, I put elements from...

01:35:16.000 You know, my students helped me.

01:35:18.000 Nino Shambri helped me.

01:35:20.000 So I put all these elements together.

01:35:22.000 But it all started off when I was on this quest to put together the ultimate guard for MMA. Because I was seeing too many guys just get beat up in the guard.

01:35:30.000 And I thought, I felt like you.

01:35:33.000 The effectiveness is gone.

01:35:34.000 What is the problem?

01:35:35.000 Why are people getting pounded in the guard?

01:35:37.000 We have to change this.

01:35:38.000 So the first thing I studied was you and Henzo.

01:35:41.000 This was back in the 90s.

01:35:42.000 I go, okay, I'm going to...

01:35:45.000 Attempt to improve the guard in MMA. So I looked at you and I looked at Hanzo and I go, what are they doing?

01:35:51.000 They're in full guard and they're holding the overhook to prevent the punch.

01:35:55.000 Like anybody try to punch in the guard with their right arm, you would overhook it and when headbutts were legal, your left hand was like this.

01:36:02.000 You were like this, protecting the headbutt.

01:36:05.000 But then when they made headbutts legal, you don't have to do this no more.

01:36:08.000 You could hold the head now.

01:36:09.000 And now in this position with the overhook, you have full guard, you're holding the head.

01:36:13.000 There's a clinch there.

01:36:14.000 So to me, as trying to be a jiu-jitsu scientist, I'm like, that is the stance in MMA. That's it.

01:36:23.000 You and Hanzo, that's what you guys are doing.

01:36:25.000 You look at all the old fights, full guard, stop the punch, hold the head.

01:36:29.000 And so to me, that was the starting point.

01:36:32.000 Yes, I agree.

01:36:34.000 But Jiu Jitsu is an animal that has never stopped to grow.

01:36:39.000 And one day I was comfortably in California watching a fight in Brazil and then I saw an eight men tournament where Fabio Gurgel was fighting Mark Kerr and Mark Kerr was the first time I saw him fighting.

01:36:57.000 That was his first tournament.

01:37:00.000 He went to the finals with Fabio and I knew Fabio.

01:37:03.000 I trained with him.

01:37:04.000 He's a brother.

01:37:07.000 And I saw what he did with Fabio. 0.57

01:37:09.000 Like stay on top, ground and pound and smashing the elbow on his face. 1.00

01:37:13.000 After Fabio's tooth getting to his arm.

01:37:17.000 And it's like next day he was all inflamed, arm, and he would go into the airplane like this.

01:37:22.000 He may almost lose the arm because then they give antibody.

01:37:26.000 We're never.

01:37:26.000 But anyway, after I saw that fight and the lack of options, Fabio was there.

01:37:33.000 Next day in the morning, I wake up.

01:37:35.000 I call my son, Hoxon.

01:37:37.000 He's 10 to 11 years old, about 110 pounds.

01:37:41.000 I said, Hoxon, come here.

01:37:42.000 And then I went to the garage on my mats.

01:37:44.000 I said, lay down.

01:37:46.000 Put him lay down and I try to represent the same position because the size weight is almost the same from Fabio Gurgel to Marquer than me for Rochson.

01:37:57.000 So I kind of immediately put him in Fabio's position and I put myself in Marquer position and then I start to analyze his position and say, Rochson, Do this, do that.

01:38:13.000 Move a little more this way.

01:38:14.000 So we're not fighting, but I try to find him a position for him to be comfortable.

01:38:21.000 And I spend about 45-50 minutes searching, studying with him because I like that kind of unproportional size.

01:38:30.000 When I finish that section, I reinvent myself in terms of what I'm going to do if I have to fight Marquer tomorrow.

01:38:42.000 Because I was satisfied with the angles I could put hocks on in order to resist my leverage, my angles, what exactly I saw in the day before.

01:38:54.000 So that means, from one day to another, I kind of...

01:38:58.000 Focus myself and fix the problem I saw with Fabio.

01:39:02.000 And at that point, I felt like, okay, I'm fixed now.

01:39:05.000 I'm ready to fight Fabio Ruggiero tomorrow.

01:39:07.000 What is this stance?

01:39:09.000 What did you change?

01:39:10.000 I could not have him...

01:39:12.000 Hawkson could not have me in control.

01:39:15.000 He has to create distance.

01:39:17.000 He has to...

01:39:19.000 How?

01:39:19.000 Shin across the belly?

01:39:21.000 No, he has to use...

01:39:23.000 The feet more properly.

01:39:25.000 Feet on the hips? 0.90

01:39:25.000 Yes. 0.90

01:39:26.000 He has to use the knee on the chest sometimes.

01:39:28.000 He has to use the element of, as I approach to getting better position, the bottom guy has to hit because if you don't strike, you don't make the guy kind of go back.

01:39:41.000 So it's a combination between fighting.

01:39:46.000 In Brazil, we have two different names.

01:39:49.000 When you brawl and when you fight.

01:39:51.000 Fight is more like a sportive.

01:39:53.000 And when you brawl, you're like, just do whatever.

01:39:57.000 So, technically speaking, when somebody wants to attack me as a brawler, I don't want to brawl back.

01:40:05.000 I want to be technical and survive and be comfortable.

01:40:09.000 And soon he starts to say, I cannot have anything here.

01:40:12.000 Let me be technical to see if I can advance.

01:40:15.000 And that's the time I will brawl against him and make him get confused.

01:40:18.000 So, I have to change strategies as he comes.

01:40:21.000 If he comes in to be a fighter, I will be aggressive, I will be mean.

01:40:25.000 If he come in to be a brawler, I will be technical and I will be comfortable.

01:40:29.000 So that kind of sense of change gives a perspective for the bottom guy to be on edge, to be on top of the offense.

01:40:39.000 Now, Mark Kerr, in that fight that you're talking about with Fabio Giorgio, headbutts were legal.

01:40:43.000 So that was a huge part of how he was getting busted up with headbutts.

01:40:47.000 But since then, headbutts have become illegal.

01:40:52.000 Were the headbutts a big reason you decided to change your guard stance?

01:40:57.000 Also, but the elbows and the reach and the way the guy positioned himself, you know, and the way Fabio was always with the leg crossed.

01:41:06.000 He was following exactly what he learned and what he saw and he could not have the time to improvise.

01:41:12.000 Nobody expected Mark Kerr being tough as he was.

01:41:16.000 It's so big.

01:41:17.000 The monster just happened in front of Fabio and he has to deal with whatever he has.

01:41:21.000 Did you know he was crying and throwing up in the locker room before that fight?

01:41:24.000 Yeah, he was always a little emotional.

01:41:26.000 He was very nervous.

01:41:27.000 I mean, shows and a little documentary he did.

01:41:30.000 He always had a little unbalance.

01:41:33.000 But at one point, his potential, he was the man to be beaten.

01:41:37.000 He was enormous.

01:41:40.000 You know, as a fan, as a fan of jiu-jitsu and a fan of mixed martial arts and Valley Tudor, man, I just wish you had had those opportunities to face those guys.

01:41:48.000 I would have loved to have seen that.

01:41:49.000 Me too.

01:41:50.000 Now, like I said, when I was trying to figure out the best MMA guard, I was looking at you, I was looking at Hickson, grabbing the overhook, but the one thing I knew is...

01:42:02.000 If that's the defensive posture, this is what I was thinking.

01:42:05.000 I didn't know you changed it up, but at that point, I thought that was it.

01:42:08.000 That's the defensive posture.

01:42:09.000 Someone was in your guard.

01:42:10.000 You have to defend first.

01:42:11.000 So I thought, well, okay, that has to be the stance.

01:42:15.000 So we have to...

01:42:17.000 Do we create offense from that stance?

01:42:19.000 So the defense is first, and do we have offense from the overhook?

01:42:22.000 And my instructor, Jean-Jacques Machado, he is one of the only guys I know of, out of all the top jiu-jitsu guys, that his whole game is based on the overhook and not grabbing the sleeves because his left hand, he was born without fingers.

01:42:36.000 So no matter what, whether it was gi or no gi, he needed that overhook because he couldn't control the sleeves.

01:42:43.000 So his overhook game was translated to his students, me included.

01:42:47.000 So I was always looking for the overhook because Jean-Jacques was my master.

01:42:51.000 And then when he got invited to Abu Dhabi, before he went to Abu Dhabi, there was a lot of legends there, a lot of jiu-jitsu legends that were going to Abu Dhabi.

01:43:01.000 And without the gi, there was no offense. 0.93

01:43:03.000 There was a lot of boring matches.

01:43:05.000 But Jean-Jacques shows up and he...

01:43:09.000 It just rises above everybody.

01:43:11.000 If you watch what Jean-Jacques did in Abu Dhabi, his left arm didn't change without a gi. 0.77

01:43:16.000 He's like, no, gi, I'm still going to grab that overhook anyways. 0.87

01:43:19.000 Everybody else was lost because they were used to their fighting stance.

01:43:22.000 Their guard fighting stance was sleeve, collar, collar, sleeve.

01:43:25.000 So without the gi, they had to change everything and they weren't used to it. 1.00

01:43:28.000 They didn't have any offense from there.

01:43:30.000 So to me, I took what you and Henzo were doing with the overhook and the controlling, but that's how Jean-Jacques fights with the overhook.

01:43:37.000 So all his sweeps, Jean-Jacques, look at all his sweeps in Abu Dhabi.

01:43:40.000 He's throwing people around.

01:43:42.000 His first year, he submitted everybody.

01:43:44.000 He was like the first Marcelo Garcia.

01:43:46.000 Everybody was freaked out.

01:43:48.000 Like, how is this guy doing it?

01:43:49.000 They didn't even understand it.

01:43:51.000 But to me, it was like, it was because his game didn't change.

01:43:54.000 When he's training in the Gi, he's training for Abu Dhabi.

01:43:57.000 The people that were training in the Gi before, they weren't training for Abu Dhabi.

01:44:00.000 He was, because it was all overhook.

01:44:03.000 He was sweeping wrestlers, all the...

01:44:05.000 Carl Uno, he was all over these guys.

01:44:07.000 So for me, that overhook, not as...

01:44:10.000 For Jean-Jacques, that overhook is important for grappling, not even for Valetudo.

01:44:16.000 So if he did Valetudo, or someone with that style guard did Valetudo, the overhook game...

01:44:22.000 Automatically takes away the punch and he has offense from that style too.

01:44:26.000 So for me that became the basis and the focus for the ultimate MMA guard was to master the overhook like Jean-Jacques.

01:44:35.000 Not only just defend, but put those butterflies in and try to sweep or set up triangles.

01:44:40.000 Like you have an overhook, you sweep, he bases, you grab that wrist, boom, triangle.

01:44:45.000 I thought that was based on what you and Hanzo did and Jean-Jacques style because it was like a blessing in disguise, him born without fingers.

01:44:54.000 It was a blessing in disguise.

01:44:56.000 He's an Abu Dhabi legend.

01:44:59.000 Everybody looks at Jean-Jacques as Yoda.

01:45:01.000 Like, how did you come into Abu Dhabi and finish everybody?

01:45:04.000 To me, it was just that overhook game.

01:45:07.000 He didn't really have to change much of his game.

01:45:09.000 So that's how Marcelo Garcia, that's his philosophy too.

01:45:11.000 His philosophy is, and he said this in interviews, that If you can't do it, if there's a gi technique that you can't do no gi, throw it out.

01:45:20.000 Only focus on the techniques that are going to translate to no gi.

01:45:25.000 So that way, when you're practicing the gi, you're actually practicing no gi as well.

01:45:29.000 So Marcello is very against being reliant too much on the collar and too much on the sleeve.

01:45:35.000 He stays away from that because even takedowns, he doesn't want to do judo takedowns because no gi, they're not going to work as much. 1.00

01:45:42.000 He wants to do...

01:45:43.000 Take down in the gi that translate no gi.

01:45:47.000 So that's just the conclusions that I came to.

01:45:53.000 That's how I train my fighters that are fighting in MMA. And it all started with watching you and Henzo.

01:45:58.000 Yes, I completely feel like that's a good standard position because you have to have a control and stuff.

01:46:07.000 But the evolutionary process brought other kinds of guards, you know?

01:46:11.000 And I can also find my comfortable those days and show.

01:46:20.000 A more spacey guard, more like towards my father's guard was because he was a very weak guy, always handled big guys, and he don't have like this kind of strength or control over his opponents.

01:46:33.000 So he was more like hip movements and using the ankles, using the foot, you know, it's more like a very lethal from the bottom, allowing the guy to get lost.

01:46:44.000 So it's a combination between the two.

01:46:47.000 I think today's is the perfect option.

01:46:50.000 Why do you think Ronda Rousey is the only fighter in MMA today that when she's pulling off... 1.00

01:46:59.000 Her arm bar looks amazing.

01:47:01.000 Have you seen her highlight?

01:47:02.000 Of course.

01:47:02.000 As soon as she's in the guard, she's not going to wait.

01:47:06.000 She's going to go and attack that arm. 1.00

01:47:08.000 She goes right to it.

01:47:09.000 She doesn't wait.

01:47:10.000 And I've trained with her many times, and her arm bar is legit. 0.65

01:47:14.000 It's not a joke.

01:47:16.000 To me, I think she has the best arm bar in MMA today. 1.00

01:47:20.000 No one has pulled it off as much as she has.

01:47:21.000 And yes, she hasn't really gone against top-level jiu-jitsu girls, but based on me training with her, I think that she can tap out.

01:47:30.000 It's going to be harder, of course, but why do you think she's the only one?

01:47:33.000 And there's all these black belts in jiu-jitsu in MMA, and they don't look anything like Ronda Rousey.

01:47:39.000 Why is that?

01:47:41.000 She's a special girl.

01:47:43.000 She's very competitive.

01:47:45.000 She's a very talented person.

01:47:47.000 But, aside of this, she has a heavy training in Judo which defines her character, defines her desire to train hard, to compete.

01:48:02.000 So, being an Olympic level Judo player, It's being a wrestler in that level.

01:48:09.000 That brings you to a different level.

01:48:11.000 It's not being just an athlete.

01:48:15.000 She's a super athlete. 0.99

01:48:17.000 She's very defined and very much specialized in one thing. 0.80

01:48:24.000 Her game is always going towards the same pattern.

01:48:30.000 And the opponents she's facing...

01:48:35.000 He's not exactly prepared for that.

01:48:38.000 I feel like nobody has the skills on the ground to fight her.

01:48:45.000 And nobody has the heavy hands in the situation to beat her in standing up. 1.00

01:48:51.000 So everything is kind of even up.

01:48:53.000 But when it goes to the ground...

01:48:56.000 The opponent gets the first throw and falls without seeing it.

01:49:01.000 It gets lost.

01:49:02.000 And then her movements are very, very effective and we'll capitalize on that.

01:49:08.000 But you know, maybe five fights, ten fights more, beautiful wins, but eventually...

01:49:17.000 She's going to have a person who has the same elements and then she's going to start to have competition.

01:49:23.000 Because so far, it feels like even too easy.

01:49:26.000 It's like not even a competition for her.

01:49:28.000 She's like a Mike Tyson. 1.00

01:49:29.000 When Mike Tyson was in his prime, she was smashing the competition. 1.00

01:49:33.000 Eventually, Cyborg Ronda is going to happen.

01:49:36.000 Dana is going to make sure that happens. 0.88

01:49:38.000 Eventually.

01:49:38.000 How do you see that going?

01:49:41.000 Oh, that's interesting because, you know, she will have the preparation, the mindset, the heavy hands, and also the skill to become a competitor for Honda, 0.96

01:49:57.000 I think.

01:49:58.000 It's unpredictable, like any fight.

01:50:02.000 If you had to put your money down, who would you...

01:50:05.000 There's no reason for me to put my money in another person...

01:50:10.000 Than Honda.

01:50:11.000 I mean...

01:50:11.000 Yeah.

01:50:11.000 Honda's in a good...

01:50:12.000 I mean...

01:50:13.000 She's getting better, too.

01:50:15.000 That's a scary thing about her.

01:50:16.000 Did you see her last fight?

01:50:17.000 Yeah, she's improving. 0.74

01:50:18.000 She's throwing combinations with the judo throws. 1.00

01:50:21.000 And her throws are just out of control. 1.00

01:50:24.000 Best judo in MMA. Yeah.

01:50:25.000 Best judo in MMA. She's throwing people. 1.00

01:50:27.000 Yeah.

01:50:28.000 And Misha, when she fought Misha, Misha is a legit wrestler. 0.99

01:50:31.000 Misha can wrestle.

01:50:33.000 She was making some big mistakes, though.

01:50:34.000 She was very high up on her.

01:50:36.000 Her weight was above the hips. 0.99

01:50:37.000 I mean, I think there was a lot of pressure involved in that fight.

01:50:40.000 She made a lot of mistakes.

01:50:41.000 You would think that when you...

01:50:43.000 In MMA, generally, when someone starts doing something that's effective that wasn't...

01:50:49.000 I've done before.

01:50:50.000 Like the front snap kick that Travis Brown is doing now.

01:50:53.000 Cerrone is doing it all the time.

01:50:54.000 Nobody was throwing that.

01:50:56.000 We need to see it first work in the UFC and go, oh man, the front snap kick or the rear leg snap kick to the chest, that's working now.

01:51:03.000 So that's huge now.

01:51:04.000 Five years ago, no one threw it.

01:51:05.000 They thought it was a waste of time.

01:51:07.000 It doesn't work.

01:51:07.000 That only works in the movies.

01:51:09.000 But there's all these kicks, head kicks.

01:51:11.000 And now that we've seen Rhonda show the effectiveness of focusing and drilling that armbar over and over again, she talks about...

01:51:20.000 Do you think people aren't paying attention to it and aren't going, look what works.

01:51:25.000 Look what happens with the armbar when you do it 100,000 times.

01:51:28.000 Let's do that.

01:51:30.000 Do you think they're not doing it because she's a girl?

01:51:33.000 No one's paying attention, really?

01:51:35.000 You think it's easy.

01:51:38.000 I mean, her performance reflects a life.

01:51:43.000 Even her parents are involved in judo.

01:51:47.000 So it's a lifetime of achievements.

01:51:50.000 It's a subconscious reflex.

01:51:53.000 It's not something which you educate people.

01:51:56.000 You don't think you could learn it if you practiced hard enough?

01:51:59.000 You have to be at least in a classification phase to go to the top ten in judo.

01:52:07.000 It's not just learn.

01:52:09.000 Is dedicate yourself, your sweat and tears and blood to get there.

01:52:14.000 You know, it's like being a Jiu Jitsu champion is one thing.

01:52:18.000 Doing what Crone does today is another thing. 1.00

01:52:20.000 He is not only fighting hard, but he goes and trains hard and runs hard and lifts weights.

01:52:27.000 Whatever he does, he does with the compromise to excel.

01:52:30.000 And that's a mindset.

01:52:31.000 It's not exactly you teach.

01:52:33.000 It's something...

01:52:34.000 I believe Honda is a special girl because she put herself in that kind of level of stress and she handled and she...

01:52:41.000 I mean, the training is hard.

01:52:43.000 The focus is hard.

01:52:45.000 She's serious.

01:52:46.000 And the whole formula is there to support her victories, you know?

01:52:51.000 Yeah, that's...

01:52:51.000 It's not a flake, or it's not a luck, or it's not, oh, you learn, come here, let me show you how to defend the arm lock, and now you go, you're ready to fight.

01:52:59.000 It's not like that, you know?

01:53:01.000 So, anyone in the mixed martial arts coming from a background, because they see mixed martial arts as a good exposure, as a good situation to make money, to make...

01:53:12.000 So, they come in with an average background to try, you know, their best.

01:53:19.000 They sometimes have it from the wrestling family and then learn some box, some jiu-jitsu, some defense and go.

01:53:25.000 They come from the judo and go. 1.00

01:53:27.000 They come from the jiu-jitsu and go and learn a little bit here and there.

01:53:32.000 But very few are like Randy Couture, which is already an established champion, like Coleman.

01:53:46.000 Guys who have defined their lives in one thing, and then they breed to another, but they have already the sense of, you know, they believe in themselves, they can capitalize on the mistakes, they forward forever, so...

01:54:01.000 Those things, you know, you don't buy it on the...

01:54:03.000 The work ethic.

01:54:04.000 ...on the supermarket, you know.

01:54:05.000 Those things is lifetime experience and it's hard to...

01:54:08.000 Yeah, the intensity that Ronda Rousey brings to training, just to life itself, is very difficult to replicate and that it has, it resonates throughout everything she does.

01:54:17.000 Yes. 0.92

01:54:17.000 She's crazy. 0.92

01:54:18.000 Now, when... 0.99

01:54:19.000 In the best way.

01:54:20.000 When Crone went against Shinya Aoki, I'm assuming that you studied a lot of Shinya Aoki tapes.

01:54:27.000 I personally think he's one of the best at Jiu Jitsu in MMA. He's gotten so many submissions.

01:54:34.000 He'll get you with leg locks. 0.91

01:54:36.000 He has a great rear naked choke. 0.72

01:54:38.000 His guard's really good.

01:54:39.000 Were you impressed by watching tape of Shinye?

01:54:42.000 Shinye is not only impressed by tapes.

01:54:45.000 The first Budo challenge I did He win with honors, you know.

01:54:49.000 He win the Buddha Challenge and submitting everybody, you know.

01:54:52.000 He won your event?

01:54:54.000 Yeah, the Buddha Challenge has different weight divisions.

01:54:56.000 In his weight division, he make two fights and submit both.

01:55:00.000 And who were the guys?

01:55:01.000 Do you remember?

01:55:05.000 Carl, he fought two guys.

01:55:10.000 Well, I didn't even really know who he was in 2005, to tell you the truth, and you already knew.

01:55:13.000 Yeah, so anyway...

01:55:15.000 I felt how tight, how precision his submission.

01:55:19.000 He got a flying army lock in the first guy and the foot lock in the second guy.

01:55:23.000 So I felt like he's very versatile.

01:55:26.000 He has a highlight reel in judo where he would do flying arm bars in judo, just one after another.

01:55:32.000 And that was something I absorbed.

01:55:34.000 And then in our training with Krohn, I said, we kind of decided to...

01:55:42.000 He was very comfortable when you engage on the grip.

01:55:46.000 So, from your grip, he can go for a flying triangle, flying arm locks and such.

01:55:52.000 So, Kron was pressing him without any engage.

01:55:56.000 Using the foot and trying to make him feel like he has to engage, not Kron grabbing.

01:56:01.000 So, that's kind of give the first The first way for him to feel like lost.

01:56:07.000 He was expecting Krohn to attempt, but Krohn was pressing without grabbing.

01:56:11.000 If you see the fight again, you see.

01:56:13.000 So at one point, they engage.

01:56:15.000 Krohn pull to the guard.

01:56:17.000 And he was kind of trying to stay, and Krohn go to the head once, he can escape, and then Krohn finish with the headlock when they roll.

01:56:27.000 But the guy is very tough.

01:56:29.000 We are not worried about the jiu-jitsu back and forth, like the attempts him to submit Krohn.

01:56:34.000 Those are hard to catch, because Krohn is very skilled to defend.

01:56:38.000 Is he good at defending leg locks, Krohn?

01:56:40.000 Yes, yes.

01:56:41.000 But still, the opportunity was raised based on his desire to act.

01:56:50.000 So we forced him to act, he gave what we want, and Kron Ketch precisely and sharp and it was over.

01:56:57.000 Every morning, every time I work out and go to the gym, I warm up on the Stairmaster and I just go ADCC Marcelo Garcia or whoever.

01:57:07.000 And I just want to warm up and watch people do Jiu Jitsu at a high level and that just gets my blood boiling.

01:57:12.000 I just want to go lift weights, right?

01:57:14.000 I'm watching Marcelo and Krohn, and man, recently, and I haven't watched it in a while, but man, I'm so used to Marcelo just going through everybody.

01:57:27.000 Marcelo just crushes.

01:57:30.000 He is unbelievable what he does.

01:57:33.000 People go to his gym, he's like, hey, you can come to my gym, I'll roll with you, but we're going to videotape it and we're going to put it on the internet.

01:57:39.000 Deal?

01:57:40.000 And everyone that goes is like, oh man, they're walking into the slaughterhouse, right?

01:57:47.000 Everyone's going to see the role.

01:57:48.000 And he just crushes everybody, big dudes.

01:57:52.000 And then for him, when he went against Krohn, he passed Krohn's guard for a couple seconds.

01:57:58.000 But then after that initial, it was a double leg drag and he jumped.

01:58:02.000 And then Krohn's ability...

01:58:04.000 To recover full guard is unlike anybody I've ever seen.

01:58:08.000 You rarely see full guard in Abu Dhabi.

01:58:11.000 People stay away from full guard, but Krohn will force you.

01:58:15.000 Force Marcelo Garcia and Krohn into full guard.

01:58:19.000 Marcelo was having a hard time, and then he finally broke open his full guard.

01:58:22.000 Then he tried to pass again, and then he's back in full guard again.

01:58:25.000 And then Krohn put him in a guillotine.

01:58:29.000 And the word is, and Marcelo I think admits this, that he went out.

01:58:34.000 Like, he went out, right?

01:58:34.000 He said, oh, it was tough, you know, I almost passed out, and then, but Krohn, because he was going in the end of the mat, the first, like, the round, he was trying to save himself for the next round, so he put pressure,

01:58:50.000 and then he kind of said that, I kind of just tried to hold instead, keep putting all my power, so, and then, I mean, nothing happened, and The guy kind of survived and he kind of won.

01:59:02.000 He won on a takedown.

01:59:04.000 So he could have put him to sleep there?

01:59:06.000 It's possible.

01:59:09.000 That's always the thing with the guillotine, knowing whether or not to exert all your energy and if you do, you gas your arms out.

01:59:14.000 Yes, but Krohn specializes in the guillotine.

01:59:18.000 He's coming in the next, for the next, for the last Abu Dhabi, prepared to face Marcelo again.

01:59:24.000 And he's escalating.

01:59:26.000 His progress is being very, very, you know, progressive.

01:59:29.000 And he was ready, but unfortunately, Marcelo didn't come.

01:59:36.000 And he made great fights, and he displayed, like, especially the guillotine against Antonio Otavio.

01:59:42.000 What's great in the final...

01:59:44.000 The guy just...

01:59:45.000 When he jumps...

01:59:46.000 And I feel like you guys talking about this fight and about the chicken and stuff.

01:59:51.000 I didn't believe it at first.

01:59:52.000 I didn't believe it.

01:59:53.000 I'm like, someone said...

01:59:53.000 Explain it to people who didn't hear our other podcast.

01:59:56.000 Well, Crone went...

01:59:58.000 In 2013 Abu Dhabi, Crone showed up and did what only...

02:00:04.000 I think maybe...

02:00:05.000 John Jock did it.

02:00:06.000 Marcelo did it.

02:00:07.000 And I think maybe Hondra Gracie did it. 1.00

02:00:09.000 I'm not sure.

02:00:10.000 He went in and submitted all four of his opponents.

02:00:13.000 And he submitted Gary Tonin in an amazing match where Gary almost won.

02:00:17.000 Best fight I saw.

02:00:18.000 Incredible.

02:00:19.000 Yeah, it was incredible.

02:00:20.000 I was losing my mind watching that one.

02:00:22.000 And he submitted JT Torres, who's a beast.

02:00:26.000 JT Torres is so good.

02:00:28.000 And he got him from the guard.

02:00:29.000 He just had the overhook.

02:00:31.000 And he just flipped his leg over his face and just held on to the overhook.

02:00:34.000 So it was kind of like one of those overhook armbars.

02:00:36.000 And then he beat...

02:00:38.000 Who did he beat first?

02:00:41.000 I don't know, but...

02:00:42.000 The first one was like, I'm not sure his name, but he put a guy to sleep.

02:00:46.000 And then get this Gary guy.

02:00:47.000 And the first day.

02:00:48.000 Yeah, and then JT Torres.

02:00:49.000 And the second day, JT, and then Otavio.

02:00:51.000 And then Otavio in the finals, well, the match we're talking about, and me and Joe talked about this, and they made a...

02:00:56.000 Stuart Cooper made a film on it, but...

02:00:59.000 Otavio Souza, his strategy was to not be on his back, stay on top, and just kind of maybe get a takedown late.

02:01:10.000 You know, because in that rule format or that points format in Abu Dhabi, that happens a lot.

02:01:15.000 People will just wrestle and wrestle and wrestle.

02:01:17.000 And he wasn't engaging.

02:01:19.000 And Krohn is like...

02:01:21.000 Just like Hickson's saying, he's like Marcelo.

02:01:23.000 He goes after it.

02:01:25.000 He's gonna go 100%.

02:01:26.000 All he wants is the submission.

02:01:28.000 That's Krohn.

02:01:28.000 He's a special grappler, a special fighter.

02:01:31.000 All he wants is the submission.

02:01:33.000 And Otevio wasn't really engaging.

02:01:36.000 And as a father...

02:01:38.000 No, no, no.

02:01:39.000 Not as a fighter.

02:01:40.000 As a coach, I saw his coach, as the fight progressed, The guy saying to Otav in Portuguese, okay man, that's it!

02:01:49.000 That's all you want! 0.96

02:01:50.000 Okay, keep going!

02:01:51.000 It's perfect!

02:01:51.000 Perfect!

02:01:52.000 Perfect!

02:01:53.000 And I see a guy just running from the fight and making a strategy which kind of upset me completely.

02:02:00.000 I mean, there's nothing perfect on that in my sense, but in this strategic aspect of his...

02:02:06.000 So I have to counter in somehow.

02:02:10.000 And then I start to make Try to suggest the referee, he was escaping.

02:02:15.000 He was trying to avoid the fight because it's not positive points in the first 10 minutes, but it's negative points.

02:02:21.000 So I was hoping for a negative point without all this stalling.

02:02:26.000 So and then I start to say, referee, the guy starts moving like, you know, he don't want to engage.

02:02:30.000 He's just moving back like a chicken.

02:02:34.000 And as the thing starts boiling, I start to say, hey, man, this guy like a chicken.

02:02:38.000 And And the whole stadium is just quiet watching the fight.

02:02:44.000 It's just this noise kind of overwhelming everything.

02:02:47.000 It's like throwing a chicken inside there.

02:02:50.000 And for a jiu-jitsu competitor, first of all, I mean, I know you're right here, but I just have to be honest.

02:02:56.000 Everybody says you're the greatest ever.

02:02:58.000 You're the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time.

02:03:00.000 So you're here, the greatest jiu-jitsu representative of all time.

02:03:03.000 Your son is competing.

02:03:05.000 This guy has to respect you and admire you.

02:03:09.000 And you're going...

02:03:11.000 And the whole crowd is listening to this.

02:03:13.000 I mean, that's a lot of pressure on that guy.

02:03:15.000 That had to get into his head.

02:03:16.000 Yeah, because I was suggesting the referee, he needs to be punished.

02:03:22.000 Yeah.

02:03:23.000 And eventually, like with 90 minutes or so, he get minus points.

02:03:29.000 And that's what's exactly what generates him to say, okay, now I'm running behind, so I have to make it happen.

02:03:36.000 And as we're talking afterwards with Krohn, Krohn said, Dad, when I started talking like a chicken, I felt like he won't explode.

02:03:43.000 I don't want to make a mistake, wasting the opportunity, but I know he will come, so I was just ready for it.

02:03:49.000 So we're kind of working together, you know?

02:03:59.000 That's the one thing Jean-Jacques would tell me.

02:04:03.000 Jean-Jacques obviously trained me for Metamorris and we would talk about Krohn and Jean-Jacques said, I asked Jean-Jacques what is Krohn's best technique?

02:04:12.000 He goes, man that guillotine He wraps his arms around your head.

02:04:16.000 He's got an incredible squeeze.

02:04:18.000 The guillotine used to be a strongman move.

02:04:22.000 I used to think, even the arm and guillotine, that's a strongman.

02:04:26.000 I never got into guillotines, but over the last 10-15 years, they've gotten so technical.

02:04:31.000 I tell you, I've always been trying to specialize myself in all the submissions.

02:04:38.000 And I have my guillotine, which gives me some victories, but you know...

02:04:43.000 And then, one time I was talking with Kron, and it was not even on the mat, it was in the locker room.

02:04:49.000 And then I said, yeah, but get your tinkering.

02:04:51.000 The guy can escape.

02:04:52.000 He said, no, that doesn't escape.

02:04:53.000 I said, no, escape.

02:04:54.000 I said, no.

02:04:55.000 He said, no, if I get it.

02:04:57.000 I said, oh, come on, grab me.

02:04:59.000 Man, I tap, you know.

02:05:02.000 And then I have to rethink my whole strategy.

02:05:04.000 I said, yeah, this guy has, you know, he already has something to tell me.

02:05:08.000 There's just levels of squeeze, right?

02:05:09.000 There's levels.

02:05:10.000 No, it's a level of grip.

02:05:11.000 It's a level of grab.

02:05:12.000 The way you hold, it's all technical.

02:05:15.000 Yeah.

02:05:15.000 And the regular escape doesn't work anymore.

02:05:18.000 So...

02:05:19.000 Of course, we have escape for Crohn's guillotine, but it's different than I was visualizing.

02:05:26.000 So I have to relearn how to escape from average guillotines and Crohn's guillotine.

02:05:32.000 So it has to be special, the defense.

02:05:34.000 Those levels, the technical levels, are lost on a lot of people that are just watching it.

02:05:38.000 The difference is subtle variations.

02:05:40.000 That is the essence of jiu-jitsu, right?

02:05:42.000 Yes.

02:05:42.000 I believe the biggest aspect of jiu-jitsu is invisible.

02:05:49.000 I preach the invisible jiu-jitsu because it's invisible because you see it, but you don't see it.

02:05:57.000 You see the same guard position, you see the same mount, but you have to feel it.

02:06:03.000 I base my jiu-jitsu on how you feel, not what you see.

02:06:08.000 And that's totally different when I go to seminars and stuff.

02:06:12.000 The guy feels different.

02:06:14.000 They say, wow, man, I've been doing this all my life and I never felt this way.

02:06:17.000 So, so good.

02:06:18.000 Okay.

02:06:19.000 So much leverage.

02:06:20.000 So, based on the weight distribution, based on the sense of leverage, all this can change.

02:06:28.000 The same position you see in a picture cannot be worth it or can be very much effective depending how the grip, the angle, the elbow, the weight.

02:06:37.000 So, it's amazing how the invisible jiu-jitsu is It's not what you learn superficially.

02:06:45.000 What do you think about Marcelo Garcia's variation of the guillotine?

02:06:49.000 Some people call it a high elbow guillotine.

02:06:51.000 A lot of people call it the Marcelo team.

02:06:53.000 He doesn't believe it like this.

02:06:56.000 Is that part of something that you've taught or is that new to you?

02:07:00.000 No, it's not new.

02:07:01.000 It's an option which is developed by him.

02:07:04.000 He's the master on this.

02:07:06.000 So you see different submissions from the break.

02:07:10.000 So it's adaptations, you know?

02:07:13.000 If you focus and you know what's coming and you have defenses, I don't believe a guillotine is effective regardless.

02:07:21.000 No.

02:07:21.000 Yeah.

02:07:22.000 All the guillotines you can defend.

02:07:24.000 But you have to be precise.

02:07:25.000 If you make one mistake, if you're thinking about defense one and the guy coming with a little twist, the defense one is not going to work.

02:07:31.000 And if you think about change for the second, you're already tapping or you're already slipping.

02:07:36.000 Yes.

02:07:36.000 So you have to be precise on the adaptation of each...

02:07:40.000 So now, if Crohn gets me, I know exactly where I have to go.

02:07:43.000 If I delay two seconds, then it's going to be...

02:07:46.000 It's over.

02:07:47.000 Yeah, it's over.

02:07:48.000 And that goes for any technique.

02:07:51.000 There's so many different ways to squeeze a neck.

02:07:53.000 I would, off the top of my head...

02:07:56.000 You know, including all the arm and chokes, like the darts and the Japanese necktie, the arm and guillotine, the different grips, all these different neck cranks.

02:08:07.000 There's got to be just on the neck.

02:08:09.000 Those inverse ones, like how you call the neck breaks from, like the one, the twister.

02:08:15.000 Yes, yes.

02:08:16.000 That was not really a choke, though.

02:08:17.000 That's just straight neck crank. 0.59

02:08:19.000 But there's so many ways, just no gi. 0.99

02:08:22.000 There's so many ways to put someone to sleep.

02:08:24.000 I would say there's...

02:08:26.000 15 to 20 different ways.

02:08:28.000 No-gi to squeeze a neck. 0.98

02:08:30.000 Everyone's got their own different styles.

02:08:33.000 Did you get into, because one of the most popular chokes over the last 10-15 years in the no-gi grappling scene is the darse. 1.00

02:08:40.000 Are you familiar with- What is the darse?

02:08:42.000 Like Bravo choke?

02:08:43.000 It's the bravo choke.

02:08:44.000 It's a squeeze, but it's the arms in.

02:08:46.000 From the back?

02:08:47.000 No, no, from top side.

02:08:49.000 Oh, like...

02:08:49.000 Yes.

02:08:50.000 I'm in half guard.

02:08:52.000 Like in half guard and you come in.

02:08:53.000 It's like you have an overhook and you come and you squeeze that one.

02:08:56.000 That's become just one of the most basic standard chokes.

02:09:01.000 And it came sort of from a wrestling three-quarter Nelson technique that was used to flip people over.

02:09:09.000 And then I think it was Dave Terrell...

02:09:12.000 Showed it to Joe Darcy, and then Mark Lehman started calling it Joe Darcy because he learned from Joe Darcy, but he actually, I don't know, John Danaher, there's a whole story, but the name stuck to Darcy.

02:09:24.000 Was that something that you guys were doing back in the 70s and 80s?

02:09:29.000 That's more of a newer show, right?

02:09:30.000 Yeah, yeah, it's more newer.

02:09:32.000 Fascinating.

02:09:33.000 The origins of the triangle, like just the leg triangle, there's so many different theories on how that got injected into heliostyle.

02:09:44.000 Do you know the origins of a triangle, or is it just an old judo technique?

02:09:48.000 No, I mean, if you go in an old book, techniques, you're going to see all the submissions, you know, like...

02:09:54.000 The application of triangles in my life starts to come by understanding the concept and seeing longer guys like macarons, guys with long legs.

02:10:09.000 Macarron?

02:10:10.000 Was that Carlos Barreto?

02:10:11.000 Marcio Macarron.

02:10:13.000 Old school guy? 0.61

02:10:14.000 Old school.

02:10:15.000 I saw guys doing this and I started to apply.

02:10:19.000 My legs are not too long, so I have to pick the perfect positions to do, but I started to get familiar with it.

02:10:28.000 It's hard to say where I come from, but I have my open mind, like the Eric Postle situation with the new...

02:10:36.000 I always have an open mind to accept, to embrace things that are functional.

02:10:43.000 You know, and discard everything which I don't like.

02:10:46.000 It's not about theory.

02:10:47.000 It's about effectiveness.

02:10:48.000 It's about results.

02:10:50.000 It's about to feel comfortable there.

02:10:53.000 So anything I see, no matter if it's from Bruce Lee or from any wrestler or Catch Catch Con, if I see and I like it, I'm going to go and experiment immediately because I just add to my arsenal.

02:11:04.000 That's the concept.

02:11:06.000 Which leads to development, to progression and to success.

02:11:11.000 It's one of the beautiful things about jujitsu is that it's constantly growing and evolving.

02:11:14.000 There's always new techniques.

02:11:16.000 The idea that, you know, the darts choke wasn't around when you were competing and now it's a staple, a mainstay.

02:11:22.000 It's fascinating.

02:11:23.000 I have to bring this up because if I didn't bring this up, everybody online would go crazy.

02:11:28.000 There's a videotape of when Yoji Anjo showed up at your dojo.

02:11:32.000 Yes.

02:11:33.000 And you, you, you know.

02:11:35.000 You saw it?

02:11:36.000 No.

02:11:36.000 No, I've never seen it.

02:11:37.000 No, you didn't.

02:11:38.000 Let's make the next barbecue in my house.

02:11:41.000 Definitely you're going to see it.

02:11:42.000 Let's plan it.

02:11:43.000 The world wants to see it.

02:11:44.000 Yeah, the world wants to see it.

02:11:45.000 Will you release it to the world?

02:11:47.000 Probably, eventually.

02:11:49.000 Oh, you gotta release it.

02:11:50.000 That's one of the number one things that people are asking for.

02:11:53.000 When I hit a couple of million people on my site, I may do that.

02:11:56.000 We'll do it.

02:11:56.000 Just for free on the site.

02:11:57.000 I'll make that happen.

02:11:58.000 I will make that happen.

02:12:00.000 Tell us that story.

02:12:01.000 How did that story come about?

02:12:03.000 Oh, just when I finished the Valetudo 95, it was a legit eight-man tournament, and I won.

02:12:13.000 It started, like the WWF, like the UFO in Japan was very strong with pro wrestling, like big magazines, like a huge Japanese love pro wrestling.

02:12:27.000 So, and then based on that kind of exposure of this new event, The champion of the wrestling association, one of the champions of the UFO, called Takada, starts talking.

02:12:37.000 Oh, I like to fight him.

02:12:38.000 They ask him and they start talking like all the pro wrestlers talk. 1.00

02:12:42.000 I gotta kick his ass, this and that. 1.00

02:12:43.000 Start talking, a lot of gossip. 1.00

02:12:46.000 And at this point, I'm back to LA. Maybe after two or three months of this kind of talking around my name forever, some guy, one of the friends I have in Japan, they come and say, Mr. Gracie, They're talking a lot about you,

02:13:01.000 and you should have an official answer for that.

02:13:04.000 You know, you cannot just let...

02:13:05.000 Because people start thinking you're afraid.

02:13:08.000 So you have to have an official answer.

02:13:10.000 So I said, okay.

02:13:11.000 So I make a letter stating I never will fight on their ring because they're not legit.

02:13:18.000 They fix fights.

02:13:19.000 So that's against my...

02:13:20.000 If you want to come and fight in my event, like...

02:13:25.000 Not mine, but the event I fought in the Japan Open.

02:13:29.000 He was welcome to come and we want to face each other for sure.

02:13:32.000 If in other cases, we can fight even on the street.

02:13:36.000 But I'm not there to fight on his event because that will jeopardize my real fighter status.

02:13:43.000 So with this being said, maybe a few weeks later, Takada went out of the gossip and then Anjo showed up in the magazine and started saying he will come into LA to beat me up.

02:14:00.000 He will do this because he said, oh, he's going to fight for free, so I'm going to dare to fight, to kick.

02:14:06.000 And then the guy came and said, hey, Mr. Angel said he's coming, he said this.

02:14:10.000 I said, man, I cannot lose my sleep based on just speculations.

02:14:16.000 He said when he came, no, he didn't say, okay, so I'm going to keep my life.

02:14:20.000 And if he show up, okay, he show up.

02:14:23.000 So the past maybe couple of weeks or so, even more, one day I was at home in the morning, My assistant at the school called me and said, Hickson, some guys here, some Japanese guys are here waiting for you, want to talk to you.

02:14:36.000 And immediately I figured out could be that situation.

02:14:41.000 So I put my camera in my hand.

02:14:43.000 Hickson wants to come in with me.

02:14:45.000 He was about 11 years old.

02:14:50.000 I was going back.

02:14:54.000 Driving my car, taping my hands because I was putting tape in my hands as I was driving on the freeway.

02:15:01.000 When I arrived, I saw a van full up with photographers outside.

02:15:09.000 I passed through my parking lot and I saw a camera full of Japanese with cameras, full of reporters inside.

02:15:15.000 So I went through.

02:15:17.000 When I got into school, I saw a huge, tall Japanese guy, very well-dressed, and a lady.

02:15:24.000 And I immediately, hey, how are you?

02:15:26.000 Oh, Mr. Gracie, I'm the president of the UFO Association.

02:15:29.000 I come here to officially invite you to participate in a fight in Japan. 0.95

02:15:33.000 I said, man, are you crazy?

02:15:34.000 I told you I don't want to fight in Japan and under your association. 0.84

02:15:38.000 And then when I kind of deflect the direction, I said, yeah, but you also said you fight for free, for your honor.

02:15:45.000 I said, yes.

02:15:47.000 I'm here to fight.

02:15:48.000 I expect fighting, but you coming to negotiate?

02:15:50.000 No, no, no, but the fighter is outside.

02:15:53.000 Can he come in?

02:15:54.000 I said, yes, he can come in.

02:15:55.000 So I tell my student to say, hey, you stay on the door, let the lady with the fighter come in, but don't let the reporters come in. 1.00

02:16:04.000 Block everybody outside.

02:16:06.000 I didn't know what's going to happen.

02:16:07.000 I don't want to press.

02:16:10.000 So as Anjo came in with an ugly face and attitude and stuff, I immediately asked my instructor, said, Limão, grab the waiver and tell him to sign. 0.96

02:16:21.000 It's like if I get hurt, whatever, those waivers.

02:16:26.000 So he looked at the waiver with an ugly face and then spoke with his guy in Japanese. 0.85

02:16:33.000 And then the Japanese guy said, Mr. Gracie, You mean, if he don't sign, you don't fight?

02:16:42.000 Immediately, I felt like, if I say, yeah, he has to sign, they may leave, and they're going to come in with all the excuses.

02:16:48.000 Oh, he chickened out, whatever.

02:16:51.000 I immediately said, no, forget the paper.

02:16:54.000 If you come in to fight, let's fight.

02:16:56.000 Forget the bureaucracy.

02:16:57.000 Let's make something here more simple.

02:17:01.000 So, in the end, he came into the ring, and we started fighting.

02:17:09.000 Immediately, I felt his intention to hit me.

02:17:12.000 Immediately, I clinched, put him on the ground, and started to punch. 0.73

02:17:17.000 He turned back, but different than a normal event where just putting him to sleep or whatever.

02:17:24.000 In that particular case, I had to display, showcase his punishment.

02:17:29.000 So I was not happy just to put him to sleep.

02:17:32.000 So I started to hit him with the elbow, expecting him to turn.

02:17:36.000 Eventually he turned, and I punched him in the face until I broke his nose and made it all bleed, all cut up.

02:17:44.000 And at that point, when I felt like he was just smashed enough, He turned again backwards and I put him to sleep.

02:17:54.000 And then I let him sleep in his own blood.

02:17:58.000 And then I said to the press, okay, now let them in.

02:18:01.000 So when the press came in, saw him passing out, waking up with the guy trying to hide his face from the pictures.

02:18:09.000 And the guy is all dizzy, waking up, all blood, you know, a big, big mass of blood on the floor and stuff.

02:18:16.000 In the crowd, my students kind of lift me up.

02:18:19.000 My t-shirt is all bloody and I kind of hang on the wall like a trophy and stuff and we're all yelling.

02:18:27.000 So the guy stood up and left.

02:18:31.000 And then like three or four days later, Andrew came back to me.

02:18:36.000 And at my school, I was teaching.

02:18:38.000 He came with a package and said, oh, I like to talk.

02:18:41.000 He was still like all bruise and stuff.

02:18:43.000 He said, yeah, I like to apologize.

02:18:44.000 And I like to give you this as a gift.

02:18:46.000 And he gave me a samurai helmet.

02:18:48.000 And then he left to Japan.

02:18:51.000 And when he got there, he said to the crowd, he was jumped.

02:18:56.000 You know, I was jumped.

02:18:58.000 The guys jumped me.

02:18:59.000 Because the press didn't saw.

02:19:02.000 And then I get my assistant, my Japanese guy who's working with me in the Valetudo 95, and I said, listen, Yuri, you take this tape, you go to Japan, Make a press conference.

02:19:15.000 Display.

02:19:16.000 Don't make one copy.

02:19:17.000 Nothing.

02:19:18.000 Make sure.

02:19:19.000 No, no.

02:19:20.000 So go there.

02:19:21.000 Make.

02:19:22.000 Show the press.

02:19:23.000 And come back.

02:19:23.000 And bring this back.

02:19:24.000 Okay.

02:19:25.000 So he went.

02:19:26.000 Make the press conference.

02:19:27.000 And then my reputation.

02:19:29.000 When they saw it was like a fair fight.

02:19:31.000 And what happened.

02:19:33.000 My reputation went to the roof.

02:19:36.000 And, you know, it's just a big step for me in the publicity, because I capitalized on all the wrestling publicity, which is national in Japan.

02:19:45.000 So, and then my next fight eventually was with Takada.

02:19:49.000 He accepted the fight and made an official fight, and then we created the Pride.

02:19:53.000 I help in the formulation of the rules.

02:19:56.000 A lot of folks don't know that.

02:19:57.000 You were a big part of the original Pride.

02:19:59.000 Yeah, they asked me if I want to fight Takada and for that they want to create a new event.

02:20:04.000 I said yes, I fight him and then we discussed numbers and in order to make a good rule I help in the rules because, you know, I introduce the gloves and the mixed martial arts.

02:20:18.000 We have to put gloves because without gloves it can be too bloody.

02:20:22.000 We have to cut headbutts and stuff.

02:20:23.000 So I make like a draw of The backbone of what could be.

02:20:28.000 And then from that, they start the Pride.

02:20:31.000 I fought the Pride 1, the Pride 4, and then the Pride becomes like huge in Japan.

02:20:36.000 And then because they have a little involvement with the Yakuza, the sponsors they have, Fuji TV, like pull it off, and they're getting problems to the payroll, which is huge.

02:20:48.000 They have maybe 50 top athletes making a lot of money.

02:20:52.000 So they could not handle.

02:20:54.000 And then UFC come and take over and get all the footage and the fighters.

02:20:59.000 Now it brings to a next level.

02:21:00.000 They took a huge bath because UFC paid $65 million for Pride and all the contracts were fake.

02:21:07.000 They were all void.

02:21:08.000 They were invalid, rather.

02:21:10.000 None of them were legal.

02:21:11.000 So I didn't know that.

02:21:12.000 So USC had the worst of it.

02:21:14.000 They had way the worst of it.

02:21:15.000 They tried to sue Japan.

02:21:16.000 They tried to sue the organization.

02:21:19.000 It's kind of funny.

02:21:20.000 This is how crafty they were.

02:21:23.000 While the UFC purchased Pride...

02:21:26.000 The people that were running Pride were starting another organization while they were working for the UFC. So they were working for the UFC, running the Pride offices for the UFC in Japan, but then they were running their other organizations.

02:21:38.000 Oh, fleeting interests without knowing, with disregard of everything.

02:21:42.000 This is a Japanese style.

02:21:44.000 There's a classic match, or not a match, fight that's on video, it might be on YouTube, with Hugo Duarte, old Luta Libre guy on the beach where you guys are fighting.

02:21:55.000 Is that on YouTube?

02:21:56.000 Oh yeah, yeah, parts of it.

02:21:58.000 It's hard to see the whole thing.

02:21:59.000 Yeah, it's a famous fight.

02:22:00.000 It's a famous fight on the beach.

02:22:02.000 You know who was holding the camera that day?

02:22:04.000 Who?

02:22:05.000 Heian, my cousin, with 12 years old.

02:22:08.000 Wow.

02:22:09.000 And Hoxson was seven.

02:22:10.000 Jean-Jacques was there.

02:22:11.000 There's Jean-Jacques running.

02:22:13.000 What was the reasoning behind that fight?

02:22:16.000 How did that go down?

02:22:18.000 Okay, let's make this the last tale, alright guys?

02:22:21.000 Because if not, we're going to talk forever here about things from the past.

02:22:24.000 I'd love to talk about present.

02:22:27.000 But anyway, it was a great time because at this point Marco Rua was just finishing fight Fernando Pinduca in an event after my second fight of Zulu in Rio.

02:22:44.000 The jiu-jitsu community has a little friction with the luta-livre community.

02:22:50.000 So they set up a fight between Marcelo Bering against Fabio Molina, Renan against Eugenio Tadeo, and then Pinduca against Marco Rua.

02:23:05.000 And they draw.

02:23:07.000 And after that draw, Marco Rua creates a good status of being a great fighter, as it is.

02:23:13.000 He's a good, you know, tough guy.

02:23:16.000 And the gossip starts to become like, oh, and then people may ask him, what about Hickson?

02:23:22.000 So, in the kind of small world, is a position where Marco Rua is as willing to fight me.

02:23:31.000 And I also, of course, willing to fight him, but I don't want to wait Or give him the reputation where I challenge him.

02:23:39.000 It's not the case.

02:23:40.000 He was just...

02:23:41.000 I was already famous, established.

02:23:44.000 He was already coming up, like, just make a good fight.

02:23:47.000 So, to make things more simple...

02:23:51.000 My father, myself, Marcelo and Sergio, my best friend, we went to his school in the night time.

02:23:59.000 He had maybe 50 guys training, all without gear, they're all tough, they all have a lot of pumping, a lot of iron, so they're all big guys, you know?

02:24:09.000 So I went to his place, said, Ruaz, I'd like to talk to you.

02:24:13.000 So he came in to me, I said, hey man, I heard you.

02:24:16.000 You're showing desire to fight me, so I like to fight you anytime you want, regardless.

02:24:22.000 Let's do it.

02:24:23.000 If you want to do now, you can do tomorrow, whatever.

02:24:26.000 And he looked at me and said, yeah, but it's not like that.

02:24:29.000 If you challenge me, I may accept, but I need four months to train. 0.99

02:24:34.000 I said, man, you're crazy. 0.98

02:24:36.000 You think, like... 0.99

02:24:37.000 I use other names, but it's like...

02:24:40.000 You think the Lakers will challenge a college basketball team from...

02:24:45.000 from...

02:24:46.000 from...

02:24:47.000 Cucamonga?

02:24:48.000 Right. 1.00

02:24:48.000 Fuck, man. 1.00

02:24:49.000 What are you talking about? 1.00

02:24:50.000 You come here to challenge?

02:24:51.000 I'm not...

02:24:52.000 I come here to...

02:24:53.000 Because I heard you planning to fight.

02:24:55.000 And if you fight, I'm here.

02:24:56.000 You want to fight or not?

02:24:57.000 So when this conversation starts to become a little...

02:25:01.000 My dad coming as a mediator and said, hey guys, don't want to discuss.

02:25:05.000 Let's make a list.

02:25:07.000 If somebody wants to fight Higgs, let's make a list.

02:25:10.000 And then eventually, you guys can fight.

02:25:13.000 And then Hugo from the back, yeah, you can put my name on that list.

02:25:18.000 And first time I saw Hugo in my life, and I look at him and said, yeah, man, you tell me...

02:25:23.000 This is not a, because it has a game, a gambling in Brazil, like a popular game, not official, but unofficial game called Jogo do Bicho, means game of the animals.

02:25:33.000 You put a name, a number, like 24 is the deer.

02:25:38.000 So a guy put $1, and if he wins, he gets maybe $50, something very popular, in every corner has this kind of underground game.

02:25:47.000 And I said to him, this is not a game of animals, man.

02:25:50.000 This is just a serious business.

02:25:51.000 You don't have to put your name in the list.

02:25:53.000 If you want to fight, let's fight right now.

02:25:55.000 And the guy kind of got me a little confused.

02:25:58.000 And nothing happened.

02:25:59.000 And then we decided to leave.

02:26:01.000 So we left.

02:26:02.000 After that...

02:26:04.000 The whole gospel, every corner.

02:26:06.000 I heard Ugo was training to fight you.

02:26:09.000 Ugo, Ugo, Ugo, Ugo, Ugo.

02:26:10.000 Start talking about Ugo, Ugo, Ugo, Ugo.

02:26:13.000 And I felt like this has to have an end, you know?

02:26:17.000 Another guy I could not challenge officially because he's a nobody.

02:26:21.000 But he's a guy, if I just disregard, he's something who's going to be against me too because I know he has the potential.

02:26:28.000 He's a fighter.

02:26:29.000 He just don't have the name.

02:26:31.000 But he's a legit tough guy.

02:26:34.000 So, based on that, I could not just ignore, and I could not challenge him officially.

02:26:40.000 So, I have to do something in between, which fight him on the street.

02:26:45.000 So, we decided to find, okay, let's make a profile, where he goes, what beach he goes, where he walks about.

02:26:52.000 So, we decided, oh, he goes on this beach, which is a very popular beach in Rio.

02:26:56.000 Every Saturday, Sunday, he's there.

02:26:59.000 Okay, so, next Sunday, we're going to be there, Saturday.

02:27:05.000 So I was at this point separate from my relationship.

02:27:10.000 I was living like a single in Rio and that's very hard to do because a lot of options.

02:27:17.000 So I was not concerned about the fight at all.

02:27:21.000 I was no sleep on the Monday, Tuesday, like just going party a lot.

02:27:28.000 Wake up on Wednesday kind of afternoon, walk on the street.

02:27:33.000 Close to my neighborhood.

02:27:34.000 And then I saw a friend of mine who's always in the gossip, said, hey, and as I leaving home, I said, I think I'm going to postpone Hugo's fight for the following week.

02:27:43.000 I don't think it's going to be a good idea because, man, I'm just too much party.

02:27:51.000 When I get on the street, man, the first guy I saw, it was this, my friend, Bauru, who's just coming and said, man, you should see, oh, everybody's prepared, everybody talking about the fight will be great, they're all waiting, they all will be there.

02:28:05.000 And I say, oh my God, no postponement anymore.

02:28:08.000 I have to go regardless, so...

02:28:12.000 So as I approach the weekend, I try to just recover, sleep, eat well, but still, like, not enough.

02:28:19.000 Anyway, Saturday morning, we're all gathering in the Gracie Barra Academy, which is close to the neighborhood, and we're gathering, like, the students, because we have to have a team to To be there,

02:28:35.000 you know, to hold and whatever.

02:28:37.000 So it's about 50 to 60 guys there, and we all kind of strategizing.

02:28:41.000 Okay, you guys make this and that.

02:28:43.000 And then my son was seven years old, all pumping up.

02:28:48.000 And then at one point, everybody quiet.

02:28:50.000 He's just jumping in the middle.

02:28:51.000 I said, yeah. 1.00

02:28:52.000 And if his son will be there, I'm going to kick his ass. 1.00

02:28:55.000 I said, good. 1.00

02:28:56.000 And everybody laughing.

02:28:58.000 So he's already with the DNA of battle.

02:29:01.000 So it was funny.

02:29:03.000 And then eventually about 10 o'clock or so, he arrived on the beach.

02:29:06.000 The guy, the messenger, come.

02:29:08.000 He says, hey, they are there.

02:29:09.000 So he went to the beach.

02:29:11.000 And as we approached the beach, I have the camera.

02:29:13.000 Nobody wants to hold the camera.

02:29:15.000 No, no, no, not me.

02:29:16.000 So I give the camera to Ryan, which is 12 years old at the time.

02:29:20.000 And he could not get through.

02:29:21.000 He's just yelling at everybody.

02:29:23.000 He could not get through to film the fight.

02:29:25.000 The filming was not even important.

02:29:27.000 So...

02:29:28.000 We engaged.

02:29:31.000 At the moment, the first engage, after I slapped him, we engaged very quickly, and then we started to hassle on the sand.

02:29:38.000 He fell on top of me.

02:29:40.000 I was kind of having a hard time from the beginning, and then I was able to sweep, mounted.

02:29:46.000 And he escaped from the mount one more time, because the sand gave me no base, so I kind of messed my knee on the sand, so he came up.

02:29:55.000 I have to sweep him again.

02:29:57.000 Mounted again.

02:29:58.000 At that time, much more concern of keeping the position. 0.77

02:30:02.000 So I grab his hand like from the back and I start to punch him. 0.58

02:30:07.000 Like a Funaki. 0.97

02:30:08.000 Yeah, exactly like Funaki. 0.76

02:30:10.000 I start to punch him, punch him, elbow punch, punch, punch, punch.

02:30:13.000 And then at one point I was dead, dead tired. 0.65

02:30:16.000 I asked him, you want to give up? 0.99

02:30:19.000 He said, you have to kill me. 1.00

02:30:20.000 I said, okay, man. 1.00

02:30:22.000 Keep punching, punching, punching. 0.91

02:30:24.000 And then immediately afterwards, he said, okay, stop, stop, stop.

02:30:26.000 So I immediately stopped.

02:30:28.000 We went to the water, dive on the water, come back.

02:30:32.000 As we come back, he said, yeah, I'm not happy.

02:30:34.000 I said, okay, let's do it again.

02:30:35.000 I said, no, no, not today.

02:30:37.000 And I said, okay, man.

02:30:39.000 That's okay.

02:30:39.000 And then Hanzo started fighting Marcelo Mendes at the beach.

02:30:43.000 They started getting...

02:30:44.000 Then he doesn't have the end.

02:30:47.000 He just kind of messed it up a little bit.

02:30:49.000 Hanzo confronted with the guy, but it was not an end fight.

02:30:53.000 Anyway, I put stitches on my hand and back, like, all swallowed.

02:30:58.000 My hands all swallowed.

02:31:00.000 So I went back home, training, resting, giving my life.

02:31:03.000 One week later...

02:31:06.000 You know, I was in a friend of mine's apartment, you know, resting tired from some little fun.

02:31:14.000 I was laid down, you know, in my underwear, my hair.

02:31:19.000 I had long hair at the time, but all messy.

02:31:22.000 A guy, a student of mine, just stopped on the street on the bike and said, Hickson, Hickson, they're inviting the school.

02:31:29.000 He's invading.

02:31:30.000 It's a big invasion.

02:31:31.000 I said, I kind of wake up and run down.

02:31:34.000 And when he saw me running in underwears, you go like that.

02:31:37.000 I said, hey, man, I jump in the bike.

02:31:39.000 Let's go.

02:31:39.000 So I went to my school.

02:31:42.000 In your underwear.

02:31:43.000 In my underwear with the hair all crazy.

02:31:46.000 This needs to be animated, by the way, right?

02:31:48.000 It will be.

02:31:49.000 And as I approach the school, because they're coming from a different neighborhood walking, and one of the guys, like Eugenio Tadeu, was a black guy who lives in a ghetto.

02:32:04.000 As they approach, they come in walking maybe three or four miles, you know, something like that, a different neighborhood.

02:32:11.000 They come in like from the street.

02:32:12.000 Let's break it up.

02:32:13.000 So as they come in, like, it's not only fighters, it's bad guys, guys with like all the eyes, I mean, only the uncovered eyes with...

02:32:23.000 With guns, with knives, with bottle break.

02:32:25.000 So it's a lot of convulsions, a lot of energy, bad energy, not coming from a real fight situation, but it's more like a street dangerous.

02:32:34.000 So as I approach and I'm coming through the crowd, which is already controlling maybe two-thirds of the street, which is passing cars, just could not pass in cars anymore, just like, just the car passing a very fine line.

02:32:48.000 It's a big crowd in front of the school.

02:32:50.000 So I went through with the bike, When I come up to the school, he's already coming down with my father, the new son, which is his instructor, other guys, they're coming down.

02:33:01.000 And we kind of crush each other in the middle of the stairs.

02:33:06.000 I said, okay, man, let's go down, let's talk.

02:33:08.000 So we went down to the parking lot and like crowded, maybe 20 guys from my school.

02:33:16.000 One guy has a weapon, but the other guys maybe five or six, ten guns and knives.

02:33:22.000 I mean, it's a bad, bad weather, you know?

02:33:25.000 So before I start the fight, I said, Hugo, I'd like to talk to you.

02:33:29.000 Come over.

02:33:30.000 Let's talk.

02:33:30.000 Let's walk to the backyard here.

02:33:32.000 So my father, myself, Denilson, Heuler, and Eugenio Tadeu, we kind of move away from the crowd to like a backyard.

02:33:42.000 And I said, man, I want to talk to you something very important.

02:33:45.000 Listen.

02:33:46.000 I fought to you last week as a man, and I come here and I respect you as a fighter to challenge me to rematch.

02:33:54.000 So all this is cool, regardless who win, who lost.

02:33:58.000 But if somebody touched the fight before the fight is over, because you bring here a lot of people without no martial arts code.

02:34:06.000 So if somebody touched the fight before it's over, I guarantee you, man, you wake up on the ditch.

02:34:14.000 And he said, no, no, it's a man to man.

02:34:17.000 Okay, let's go back.

02:34:18.000 Let's talk.

02:34:19.000 So we went back to the crowd.

02:34:22.000 They make an arena.

02:34:26.000 People make a circle.

02:34:28.000 And it was on the concrete. 0.97

02:34:31.000 And I felt, when we start, I felt like his mentor or whatever, supposed to say to him, hey man, the first fight last week, you engage too quickly, you give the grappling too quickly, you should punch him in the face.

02:34:44.000 So I felt a completely different animal because he was already trying to, by his approach, his position, the way he moves, I felt like he wants to punch me.

02:34:53.000 Different than was before.

02:34:56.000 And I kind of make myself like a vebo. 0.97

02:34:59.000 I kind of play dummy, you know.

02:35:00.000 I play kind of statue. 0.76

02:35:01.000 And he come and punch me right there.

02:35:04.000 I deflected very quick. 0.97

02:35:05.000 Grab him around the waist like high. 0.51

02:35:08.000 Make a little hip movement and put him horizontal and throw him on the concrete. 0.90

02:35:13.000 So he fell flat on the concrete.

02:35:15.000 I try to mount.

02:35:17.000 He escaped.

02:35:17.000 I move like to the other side and mount again.

02:35:21.000 And I end up by mounting on him like with 15 maybe 20 seconds.

02:35:26.000 I just mounted on him.

02:35:27.000 I punched.

02:35:28.000 He covered up.

02:35:29.000 And I could not punch anymore. 0.93

02:35:31.000 So I get his everything and bang his head against the concrete a few times.

02:35:36.000 You know, he kind of banged the head on the floor.

02:35:39.000 And then he softened up a little bit.

02:35:41.000 I give him a couple of punches.

02:35:42.000 He kind of quit immediately.

02:35:43.000 Stop, stop, stop.

02:35:45.000 For me, it was not exactly the well done job because it was just too quick.

02:35:49.000 And he quit very quickly.

02:35:52.000 So I want to do something else, but the crowd was already trying to...

02:35:57.000 It's too much.

02:35:58.000 I said, if I insist here after his ask for mercy, it can jeopardize the whole thing.

02:36:05.000 So even though I was not happy, I stood up.

02:36:08.000 And he stood up and he said, yeah, man, I'm happy.

02:36:11.000 I'm satisfied now.

02:36:12.000 You really demand.

02:36:13.000 Shake hands.

02:36:14.000 I said, yeah, man, you have a very valuable guy too.

02:36:16.000 Very strong.

02:36:17.000 Keep training.

02:36:18.000 You can be good.

02:36:18.000 So we kind of end up our...

02:36:22.000 Difference.

02:36:23.000 Yes.

02:36:24.000 So once we're out of that, Reulers start to fight Eugenio Tadeo.

02:36:31.000 Because they're already having a little...

02:36:33.000 So they start fighting.

02:36:35.000 At that point, the police come in.

02:36:36.000 A guy with a gun machine, just because nobody would listen to the position, nothing.

02:36:41.000 So he kind of...

02:36:41.000 make a shooting the roof.

02:36:44.000 The bullets come up and bring in some ricochet down and somebody get hit.

02:36:50.000 And then he comes, he's a very small guy with a cigarette.

02:36:53.000 I said, I want to see who's the tough guy now.

02:36:55.000 So he's a very small guy with a gun machine.

02:36:57.000 So everybody like quiet.

02:37:00.000 So and then I talk with the news and said, hey man, the fight has just started here with Hoyer.

02:37:03.000 It has to go next week.

02:37:05.000 We're going to set up something that's not end yet.

02:37:07.000 So we set up for a different day.

02:37:12.000 Then it's over for me and Hugo, we kind of end up with a respectful, honorable way and that's pretty much it.

02:37:20.000 That's a great story.

02:37:21.000 So no more old stories, that's it?

02:37:24.000 I could hear those all night.

02:37:25.000 We can go forever here, man.

02:37:27.000 What's wrong with that?

02:37:28.000 Some guys, you know, this is the biggest response ever on Twitter for a guest.

02:37:32.000 Like, I don't know about your Twitter, but my Twitter, people are going nuts that you're doing the podcast.

02:37:38.000 People are losing their minds.

02:37:39.000 And they've been going nuts ever since the Yoji Anjo tape.

02:37:42.000 They're screaming, please release the tape.

02:37:44.000 Please release the tape.

02:37:46.000 Will you release it?

02:37:48.000 Yeah, let's do that.

02:37:49.000 Okay.

02:37:49.000 But let's keep the couple of million people in the sights.

02:37:54.000 Okay, we'll do our best to get as many people on the site as possible.

02:37:58.000 So where are you sending people?

02:37:59.000 What's the site?

02:38:00.000 What's the address?

02:38:00.000 It's JJGF.com.

02:38:02.000 Jiu Jitsu Global Federation.com.

02:38:05.000 So just the initial, JJGF.com.

02:38:07.000 It's all set up right now.

02:38:08.000 Beautiful.

02:38:09.000 So I wanted to ask you something about what's going on today in MMA. There's like Nick Diaz and there's been a bunch of guys that have been suspended and fined for having cannabis in their system.

02:38:23.000 And there's big controversy because in a lot of states, now it's 23 states in the United States where it's legal now.

02:38:29.000 So how do you feel about banning cannabis as a performance enhancer?

02:38:35.000 I mean, what do you think about that?

02:38:37.000 I mean, I think, you know, we are...

02:38:39.000 I mean, since the beginning of the times, drugs are always involved with us.

02:38:45.000 Not just drugs for party drugs or...

02:38:48.000 We're talking about painkillers, we're talking about coffee, we're talking about alcohol, we're talking about...

02:38:55.000 I mean, teas and herbs.

02:38:57.000 So we all are accustomed to use medicines and drugs to enhance, to diminish, to accalm.

02:39:03.000 So this is there.

02:39:07.000 You know, I think that kind of judgment goes from person to person.

02:39:13.000 You know, some people can have a little bit of some drug and get a reaction which can make him crazy or can make him addicted or can make him...

02:39:23.000 So the chemical in the brain can respond differently.

02:39:27.000 Yes.

02:39:27.000 For some people, cannabis is a medicine as they play.

02:39:31.000 For others, it can be a stimulant or can be a...

02:39:35.000 Below, I mean, lower self-esteem, becomes bipolar.

02:39:38.000 If you smoke, you can be...

02:39:40.000 I mean, you don't know.

02:39:42.000 It makes you more of what you are, kind of, right?

02:39:45.000 It's hard to say what is...

02:39:46.000 So, at that point, I feel like we have to obey the law, you know?

02:39:51.000 And if some kind of drugs are forbidden by law for you to become a pro athlete, you have to obey that if you're in that career.

02:40:00.000 What you do in your life...

02:40:02.000 You know, it has to be respected, has to be, you know, whatever.

02:40:06.000 But what's the rules for MMA? I mean, I try to input in the jiu-jitsu the anti-doping, you know, because you see guys in the same way division, but one guy has 10 times more endurance, 10 times more power, 10 times whatever.

02:40:21.000 So the guy, you know, has addictive, like he has an extra enhancement.

02:40:29.000 So, we have to balance this in order to make a fair sport.

02:40:34.000 How much the cannabis affects the athlete, I'm not sure.

02:40:39.000 But I know others like steroids or hormones, those are proving.

02:40:44.000 So, whatever is being proved against using the cannabis for...

02:40:51.000 Fighting for sports activities if it's proved this kind of support of I mean the drug use can be enhancing some maybe we cut I don't know it's up to the real problem is it's it's there they're testing people for something that stays in your body for a long time after it's psychoactive so if you took cannabis like a week before your fight I You're not going to be high when you're fighting,

02:41:14.000 but it's still going to be in your system, so you're still going to be penalized for something that has nothing to do with it.

02:41:19.000 But what's the reason?

02:41:20.000 What's the reason why they took it?

02:41:22.000 Yeah, because you can have caffeine in your blood.

02:41:25.000 You can have, like, another kind of...

02:41:27.000 Why the cannabis has to be...

02:41:30.000 Because I don't think it's an enhancement of performance.

02:41:34.000 I think it's only control your emotion or give you some kind of feeling of happiness.

02:41:39.000 Sometimes it gives you, like, a little laziness.

02:41:42.000 You know, I don't think that will help you as an athlete.

02:41:45.000 I think if you get high before an event, you're going to lose your sharpness.

02:41:51.000 So I don't think that will support.

02:41:54.000 So I don't see why they have to bother and legalizing or forbidding.

02:41:58.000 I don't know, maybe...

02:42:00.000 It's just because of the law.

02:42:01.000 Just because it's illegal.

02:42:02.000 And the reason why it's illegal has nothing to do with whether or not it's safe or dangerous.

02:42:06.000 It does nothing.

02:42:07.000 It's all political at this point.

02:42:09.000 But they did lower it, right?

02:42:10.000 Now, it used to be that if you were in Colorado, let's say, where it's totally legal.

02:42:16.000 It's not illegal there.

02:42:17.000 Anybody can smoke in Colorado.

02:42:18.000 You could buy it.

02:42:19.000 You could buy it in vending machines.

02:42:21.000 You have to stop a month before your fight because it's still gonna show up in the test.

02:42:26.000 And you could lose the fight.

02:42:27.000 The fight's a no contest.

02:42:29.000 You get fined.

02:42:30.000 So now they're kind of changing it and adapting.

02:42:33.000 Now, I guess, according to the numbers, I think you have to stop two weeks before a fight or something like that.

02:42:43.000 Maybe, eventually, depending on the card, they have to change the fight for Colorado.

02:42:49.000 Yeah.

02:42:51.000 Or the training camp being in Colorado, so everything there is legal.

02:42:55.000 But they're definitely...

02:43:00.000 How do you say?

02:43:01.000 Relaxing the rules?

02:43:02.000 You wouldn't say that though.

02:43:04.000 What's the word?

02:43:04.000 They made it from, it used to be 50 nanograms per milliliter to 150. So it changed quite a bit.

02:43:12.000 300% increase.

02:43:13.000 So you have to have 300% more marijuana in your system.

02:43:16.000 Well, that's a step in the right direction, I think.

02:43:19.000 Now, as far as performance enhancing, surfing is a serious sport that requires serious technique, lots of hours.

02:43:27.000 And generally, you hear that surfers will be under the influence of cannabis while they're surfing.

02:43:38.000 Wouldn't it, if it makes your reflexes, some people believe that it dulls your reflexes, how can surfers Be under the influence of cannabis and ride a 25-foot wave.

02:43:51.000 No, the ocean is an animal.

02:43:58.000 You know, it's alive, it's in movement, it can be dangerous.

02:44:02.000 It has this kind of...

02:44:03.000 You have to have the perfect...

02:44:05.000 I mean, you have to have the perfect mapping, the way out, the way in.

02:44:11.000 So it's a lot of strategy, it's a lot of technique.

02:44:14.000 And there's also a lot of harmony between you as a surfer and the ocean.

02:44:20.000 So you have to find yourself comfortable.

02:44:24.000 You have to find yourself spiritually connected to the force.

02:44:29.000 And sometimes, some of my friends who normally smoke some, they feel peaceful.

02:44:39.000 And they get in the harmony.

02:44:41.000 It's not about tenuous physical.

02:44:46.000 Only if you get caught in the bad situation, against the bad ripcord, you have to swim like a dog.

02:44:52.000 You're a good surfer.

02:44:53.000 You've surfed your whole life, right?

02:44:54.000 Yeah, I surfed my whole life.

02:44:54.000 What's the biggest wave you've ever surfed?

02:44:56.000 30 feet?

02:44:57.000 No, man, no.

02:44:59.000 I'm about 12 feet, solid.

02:45:01.000 It's dangerous.

02:45:02.000 Longboard, shortboard?

02:45:03.000 Shortboard.

02:45:03.000 I'm a shortboard, I guess.

02:45:05.000 And Crone surfs too?

02:45:06.000 Crone surfs.

02:45:07.000 But he's just...

02:45:08.000 He's more passionate about jiu-jitsu than surfing.

02:45:12.000 How often do you surf still?

02:45:14.000 Oh, depends on the swell.

02:45:15.000 I have to check the surf line today.

02:45:16.000 Oh, really?

02:45:17.000 So you might surf every day?

02:45:19.000 Yeah.

02:45:19.000 If the swell is good...

02:45:20.000 You love it that much, huh?

02:45:22.000 Oh, yeah, man.

02:45:22.000 What is it about surfing?

02:45:24.000 It's about...

02:45:25.000 For me, it's about the water, the ocean.

02:45:28.000 Because I believe in energy.

02:45:31.000 I believe in...

02:45:34.000 And the ocean being the most, the most, the hugest electromagnetic pole in Earth.

02:45:40.000 All the electricity coming from.

02:45:42.000 So, as I go in the ocean, if I'm stressed, I get energy.

02:45:46.000 If I'm, you know, lazy, I get energy.

02:45:50.000 If I'm too tense, I get relaxed.

02:45:52.000 So, it's an equalizer for me because I feel like...

02:45:55.000 The contact with the ocean keeps me in balance.

02:45:59.000 So, for me, it's not about the perfect wave.

02:46:02.000 It's about going to the ocean, making my routine, making my exercise, breathing. 0.54

02:46:06.000 You know, I'm a tropical rat.

02:46:08.000 I'm born and raised in Rio, so I cannot stay away from the water.

02:46:12.000 It's just, you know, somehow...

02:46:15.000 The energy flow and how spiritually that's kind of have empowered me in a sense.

02:46:20.000 And you would say that physically surfing does translate to jiu-jitsu as far as the balance, right?

02:46:26.000 Because you need incredible balance?

02:46:28.000 Not really.

02:46:29.000 I think it is, of course.

02:46:31.000 You stimulate your neuromuscular activity in surfing and skate and jiu-jitsu.

02:46:38.000 But I think the most important thing in surfing is As you become under pressure, you have to strategize.

02:46:47.000 You have to be in control of your emotions.

02:46:49.000 You have to be focused and everything do right.

02:46:55.000 And if things go wrong, you have to find your comfortable zone in hell.

02:47:00.000 And the mindset is similar because devotion is not your enemy.

02:47:06.000 But he's there to do his thing and he's very powerful.

02:47:10.000 So you have to find your mental, your mindset to find comfortable in all this turmoil.

02:47:17.000 You know, it's all, you know, it's...

02:47:19.000 If you get caught in the wrong position and if you get panic, it's gone.

02:47:22.000 So you have to be calm.

02:47:23.000 Same thing than fight.

02:47:25.000 You have to have the focus, the strategy, and even when the problem rises, you have to be in control.

02:47:33.000 What do you do with your time these days?

02:47:34.000 What's a typical day for Hicks and Gracie?

02:47:38.000 Right now, I'm back to teaching Krohn's place because I wanted to have him more distressed with how the academy goes.

02:47:48.000 So I picked two times a week to teach there, giving self-defense classes.

02:47:54.000 At this point, before that, I was doing seminars once a month, at the most once, twice every couple of months.

02:48:05.000 To make my living and also because I feel like the best things in life, money cannot buy.

02:48:12.000 And I feel like the quality of my meals, the way I eat, the way my relationship, my sleep, those are very, very valuable assets, you know, plus the time I have to do things I love to do.

02:48:27.000 That's kind of when I feel like I'm happy enough to be my best at service, because I always try to be at service, helping somebody with jiu-jitsu, with knowledge, with nutrition, with breathing.

02:48:42.000 It's not about the price, it's about the service.

02:48:45.000 And then I put my head and said, yeah, I have a nice day, I make a good speech with Joe Hogan, I have a nice talk with Ed Bravo, it was a great day.

02:48:56.000 So somehow, in a purpose for the Federation, so I always try to be positive, but I have no schedule fixed like I have to wake up, go to, no.

02:49:06.000 Because at this point, I create a lifestyle which makes me feel good to engage in different elements like this Federation now and having classes on Crohn's and be here, to be full of energy,

02:49:22.000 you know, because Sometimes you don't notice, but based on your commitments, your obligation, you're becoming more like a robot and you lose the perspective of what you need to be at your best.

02:49:39.000 And if you lose that perspective, even though you're still doing your routine, sometimes you're just minus.

02:49:45.000 You're just 80, 70, 60% of what you should be.

02:49:49.000 So you're not going to be the best husband, you're not going to be the best father, the best employer, the best employee.

02:49:54.000 You just, you know, it's just...

02:49:56.000 So at this point, I feel like I have to be at my best physically.

02:50:01.000 If I feel like I have to stretch, I'm going to stretch, breathe, joke, have fun, listen, party, whatever.

02:50:08.000 You know, and then when I feel like, man, I'm so happy, I could not eat.

02:50:12.000 So, and then I can go and do my service, you know, and, you know, because the window of life is smaller.

02:50:18.000 Now, for me, it becomes, I don't have too much time.

02:50:21.000 So, I don't waste time to do what people expect from me.

02:50:24.000 I try to do things that are really relevant to my soul, like this Federation now.

02:50:31.000 When I dream, I don't dream small.

02:50:34.000 I dream like I make a very space for the biggest dream I can dream.

02:50:39.000 And I see that level of need for the community and the level of Of position I have to be the reference for that shift in the direction of our culture and our knowledge,

02:50:56.000 I feel like I could not be more motivated, more happy to engage on this.

02:51:02.000 And that's always what life is about.

02:51:04.000 Just do your best and be excited, be motivated to the next day.

02:51:10.000 There's such a refreshing attitude, your attitude, your philosophy on life.

02:51:14.000 Because I think it's very easy, and I've trapped myself in it sometimes, where you concentrate too much on making money, concentrate too much on being ambitious, and you forget the quality of life.

02:51:25.000 Your focus is almost entirely on your quality of life.

02:51:28.000 Yes.

02:51:29.000 You know, because, like I said, man, How much costs your motivation?

02:51:33.000 How much costs your friends?

02:51:35.000 How much costs your health?

02:51:37.000 How much costs your intelligence?

02:51:39.000 Those things, it's priceless.

02:51:41.000 I mean, if you take those of your life, you take your motivation of your life, it can be Bill Gates, it can be the biggest...

02:51:47.000 So if you ask me if I want to have Bill Gates' life, I don't know.

02:51:51.000 I don't know him.

02:51:52.000 So it's not based on his bank account.

02:51:55.000 It's based on how happy he is, how horny he is, how...

02:52:00.000 How motivated he is to wake up and do his thing.

02:52:02.000 He don't look too horny.

02:52:04.000 I don't think he's horny at all.

02:52:08.000 So that's a very essential thing which sometimes slips through people's fingers and the priorities and the daily payments.

02:52:19.000 So I put you in a role where I feel like If you tell me in the past, what's the courage, what's the opposite of courage, I'm going to say cowardness.

02:52:32.000 Because either you're tough enough to challenge and to fight, or then you're a coward and you chicken out.

02:52:38.000 So that, in the past, was like the opposite of courage.

02:52:45.000 It's very hard to measure this in those days.

02:52:48.000 And I believe the opposite of courage today is conformity.

02:52:51.000 You know, as people get conformed.

02:52:53.000 Oh, I don't like my wife the way I used to like, but I'm never going to divorce because I'm afraid to lose my house.

02:53:00.000 Or the situation is so established, so I don't like this job, but I'm going to keep here because it's better than his.

02:53:06.000 So, in other hands, if you get caught on that kind of compromise to maintain because you're afraid to risk, Let's keep you like one step behind from follow your heart, follow your ambition.

02:53:20.000 If you're 18 years old, you don't think twice.

02:53:22.000 The guy says, hey, let's go to Australia.

02:53:24.000 You think, okay, let's go, boom.

02:53:25.000 But when you're 50, you say, Australia, what are you going to do there?

02:53:28.000 Maybe I'm going to...

02:53:29.000 So it's different, you know?

02:53:30.000 That's me.

02:53:32.000 Am I getting paid or what?

02:53:33.000 Where are we going?

02:53:34.000 Yeah, so that's kind of pretty much where keep you from be at your best.

02:53:40.000 Because if you're willing to sacrifice...

02:53:44.000 If you're willing to broke new challenges, if you're willing to...

02:53:49.000 You're in a stage of liveness and excitement and unpredictability who make you feel like you're in heaven.

02:53:56.000 You know?

02:53:57.000 Every time I was engaging in a compromise or a fight was something I thank you, like...

02:54:03.000 I have my routines prior to fight.

02:54:05.000 One of them is at the day of my fight I wake up and I thank you God to be alive and I Acknowledge how perfect it will be that day if I die today. 0.99

02:54:16.000 Say, fuck, it was going to be a perfect day if I die. 0.98

02:54:19.000 Because I have, you know, I accomplished my thing. 1.00

02:54:21.000 I'm in my mission.

02:54:22.000 I'm representing my family.

02:54:24.000 So I don't go there to tap. 0.99

02:54:26.000 I go there to die. 1.00

02:54:27.000 The guy had to kill me. 0.99

02:54:29.000 I'm never going to tap.

02:54:31.000 But that's not a sport-like orientation.

02:54:33.000 This is a philosophical...

02:54:37.000 Honor representation.

02:54:38.000 It's not something I teach.

02:54:40.000 No, it should not happen.

02:54:41.000 No, it's not like that.

02:54:42.000 It's about how I feel, how I feed my kids, how I follow my tradition.

02:54:46.000 So in engagement, I'm not going to be the one who's going to quit. 0.99

02:54:51.000 The guy has to kill me. 0.99

02:54:52.000 My brother, he can throw the towel. 1.00

02:54:54.000 But for me, it's unacceptable.

02:54:57.000 You know, I give up from my life.

02:55:01.000 So based on that kind of spiritual guidance, my life is very intense.

02:55:05.000 My life is very, I mean, directed to accomplish.

02:55:08.000 Give up is not an option, you know?

02:55:12.000 I can direct my focus.

02:55:14.000 I can give up from something to go somewhere else, but I never will give up from something because I feel like I cannot reach there.

02:55:22.000 I may say, okay, that's not for me.

02:55:24.000 I go somewhere else.

02:55:25.000 But if I still focus, I will take those falls, I will take those obstacles as a motivation to just set up a new strategy to try again.

02:55:35.000 You know, I'm very competitive in a sense I like the perfection of things.

02:55:40.000 So this is like a situation where put you in a situation where you have no, either you go forward or you don't.

02:55:48.000 But don't stay in the middle.

02:55:49.000 Don't say just waiting for people or waiting for more.

02:55:53.000 Those are kind of things kind of stuck you back in life and just make you feel like Passing through life as you're irrelevant.

02:56:03.000 It's very weak.

02:56:04.000 That's a beautiful way to end this.

02:56:06.000 Thank you very much, brother.

02:56:07.000 I really, really appreciate it.

02:56:09.000 It was fantastic.

02:56:09.000 Let's make this sometime again and talk about more things.

02:56:13.000 Anytime.

02:56:14.000 We could do this forever, I'm sure.

02:56:15.000 And anything we could do to help your association, I'm 100% Committed to making the state of jiu-jitsu better, improving on what is going on.

02:56:25.000 That's what I'm all about.

02:56:27.000 JJGF.com So we are true on that, and definitely you're going to be invited for the Development Council.

02:56:33.000 Thank you very much.

02:56:34.000 My pleasure, brother.

02:56:35.000 So go there.

02:56:36.000 JJGF.com.

02:56:38.000 Enjoy it.

02:56:39.000 Hicks and Gracie, thank you very much, sir.

02:56:40.000 Thank you, bro.

02:56:41.000 Thank you to our sponsors.

02:56:42.000 Thanks to Squarespace.com.

02:56:44.000 Go to Squarespace.com.

02:56:45.000 Use the code word Joe and save 10% off your first purchase.

02:56:49.000 Thanks also to Onnit.com.

02:56:51.000 Go to O-N-N-I-T. Use the code word Rogan and save 10% off any and all supplements.

02:56:57.000 We will be back in a little while with Bert Kreischer.

02:57:00.000 Much love, my friends.

The Joe Rogan Experience - July 21, 2014

Joe Rogan Experience #524 - Rickson Gracie & Eddie Bravo

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript