The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #953 - Shirley Manson

00:00:02.000 5, 4, 3, 2...

00:00:07.000 Kapow! 0.99

00:00:08.000 And we're live, Shirley.

00:00:09.000 How are you?

00:00:10.000 I'm feeling alive.

00:00:12.000 You look alive.

00:00:13.000 Thanks, so do you.

00:00:14.000 Does anybody ever ask you, are you really only happy when it rains?

00:00:17.000 All the time.

00:00:17.000 Is that annoying?

00:00:19.000 Yeah.

00:00:19.000 I would imagine so.

00:00:20.000 I shouldn't have done it.

00:00:21.000 I couldn't have helped myself.

00:00:22.000 It was a little beneath you, though, but that's okay.

00:00:24.000 I'll forgive you.

00:00:25.000 It was a little.

00:00:26.000 I panicked.

00:00:27.000 I didn't know how to start.

00:00:28.000 I never do.

00:00:29.000 Well, at least you didn't ask me.

00:00:30.000 Are you really related?

00:00:32.000 Are you really, you know, the sister of Marilyn Manson is another one, too.

00:00:35.000 Oh, is that one that comes up?

00:00:36.000 That comes up a lot. 0.90

00:00:37.000 Yeah, that guy's a freak.

00:00:38.000 Have you ever met him?

00:00:39.000 I love him.

00:00:40.000 He's an odd dude.

00:00:42.000 He's...

00:00:42.000 You think?

00:00:44.000 Oh.

00:00:44.000 I was kind of shocked by how normal he is.

00:00:47.000 Oh, he's very smart.

00:00:48.000 Very nice.

00:00:49.000 He's really smart and really, I thought, really forthright.

00:00:51.000 Yeah.

00:00:51.000 Oh, yeah.

00:00:52.000 I appreciated him.

00:00:53.000 I loved him, actually.

00:00:53.000 I was crazy about him.

00:00:56.000 Well, doesn't that in and of itself make him a freak?

00:00:58.000 Yeah, I guess so.

00:00:58.000 In this world?

00:00:59.000 I guess so.

00:00:59.000 And we were just talking out there about how many people are pilled up.

00:01:04.000 Well, we were also talking about people who can't tell the truth.

00:01:06.000 That's maybe even more weird.

00:01:08.000 Yeah, we were talking about transracial people.

00:01:12.000 You know the one, folks.

00:01:14.000 We don't have to say her name.

00:01:15.000 You know that chick. 1.00

00:01:16.000 Poor lady. 1.00

00:01:18.000 And then that dude who also did it.

00:01:20.000 There's a lot of weird people out there.

00:01:22.000 But also, Jamie.

00:01:24.000 Jamie lies about being an Indian, apparently.

00:01:27.000 Not a lot.

00:01:28.000 A Native American, right? 0.94

00:01:29.000 Inside joke.

00:01:30.000 Yeah, that's not a funny thing.

00:01:32.000 Indian is actually kind of offensive to some people now, where it was like standard for a long time.

00:01:38.000 Well, I'm ashamed to say when I first came to America 20 years ago, I always, because it was the way we were brought up, we referred to Native Americans as Red Indians.

00:01:48.000 And every time I would say Red Indian, everybody in my band would be going... 1.00

00:01:53.000 You can't say that.

00:01:55.000 You've got to stop that.

00:01:56.000 And I'm like, oh, God, I'm so sorry.

00:01:58.000 But, you know, I was 30 years in or whatever.

00:01:59.000 I was so used to saying it.

00:02:01.000 Oh, is that a Scotland thing?

00:02:02.000 Scottish thing, yeah.

00:02:03.000 You say Red Indian?

00:02:04.000 We used to say Red Indian.

00:02:05.000 That has now been completely changed.

00:02:07.000 But back then, 20 odd years ago, yeah, we always refer to Native Americans as Red Indian.

00:02:13.000 Yeah, I mean, you can't say Red people, but you can say White people.

00:02:17.000 You can definitely say Black people, but you can't say Yellow people.

00:02:20.000 Yeah, it's complicated.

00:02:22.000 It's super complicated.

00:02:23.000 The rules are complicated.

00:02:23.000 I get it.

00:02:25.000 If you didn't know, if you were just learning this language, like if you came from China or something like that, you'd be very confused.

00:02:31.000 You'd be baffled.

00:02:31.000 Yes.

00:02:32.000 I spend my life baffled, though.

00:02:34.000 That's okay.

00:02:34.000 I just go with it now.

00:02:36.000 Good for you.

00:02:36.000 It's okay to be baffled.

00:02:38.000 Good for you.

00:02:39.000 That is a good way to approach it.

00:02:41.000 Well, it's made me happier, I'll tell you that.

00:02:43.000 It's definitely happier than trying to control everything.

00:02:45.000 I know a lot of people that go down that rabbit hole.

00:02:47.000 That's not a good rabbit hole to go down.

00:02:49.000 No, but I think controlling things, it's fear-driven, right?

00:02:52.000 Sure.

00:02:53.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:02:54.000 A lot of it.

00:02:54.000 I think I'm too old to be fearful, I think.

00:02:57.000 Really?

00:02:58.000 A wee bit, yeah.

00:02:59.000 Yeah?

00:02:59.000 But you're like a...

00:03:01.000 See, there's a certain thing that happens to people in show business when they get to a certain age.

00:03:07.000 Either they feel like it's slipping away, or they feel comfortable.

00:03:12.000 You seem like a comfortable person.

00:03:13.000 Yeah, I'm a comfortable person.

00:03:14.000 Well, kind of.

00:03:16.000 Kind of?

00:03:16.000 Yeah.

00:03:17.000 What's uncomfortable?

00:03:18.000 I'm uncomfortable about a lot of things.

00:03:20.000 Let's get into it.

00:03:22.000 You got there already, Joe.

00:03:23.000 Sorry.

00:03:24.000 That's impressive.

00:03:25.000 You're fast.

00:03:26.000 I lower your guard by giving you something really beneath me first, and then I slip it in.

00:03:29.000 Oh, I see.

00:03:30.000 And then you come in, like, and just...

00:03:31.000 Yeah, you don't even know it's coming.

00:03:33.000 ...quick blow to the left side of the head.

00:03:35.000 No, I'm uncomfortable about a lot of things, but I hear what you're saying and yeah, I feel like maybe if you feel like you've failed and then you've stepped back up, then you either crumble and you can't build your life back up or you find a place to stand and you build your career again on your own terms and then it is comfortable.

00:03:55.000 Is that what you're saying?

00:03:57.000 That's what I'm saying.

00:03:58.000 That's where you're at?

00:03:59.000 That's what I'm saying.

00:04:00.000 But you never failed.

00:04:01.000 I felt I did.

00:04:03.000 Really?

00:04:03.000 How?

00:04:03.000 Yeah.

00:04:04.000 Well, you know, we in the 90s were so much a sort of pop cultural zeitgeist, I guess.

00:04:12.000 Right.

00:04:12.000 You know, and that can't last forever.

00:04:14.000 But when it stops...

00:04:17.000 I should speak for myself.

00:04:18.000 When it stopped, it was dizzying for me.

00:04:20.000 I didn't really know what to do with myself.

00:04:21.000 I didn't really understand my identity.

00:04:25.000 You know what I mean?

00:04:25.000 I didn't know who I was.

00:04:27.000 Because it was such a ride?

00:04:27.000 Because it was such a crazy ride and I identified with myself as a successful person and my idea of success was really warped.

00:04:37.000 So your idea of success was commercial success?

00:04:40.000 Correct.

00:04:41.000 Did you take any comfort in the artistic success?

00:04:45.000 I did eventually, but at the time I felt like we were being creatively adventurous and we were getting punished for it and it made me really angry.

00:04:54.000 Oh, so you feel like, were you getting published?

00:04:57.000 I mean, was it the publishers, the music publishers that were punishing you?

00:05:01.000 No, it wasn't even that personal, although I took it personally.

00:05:04.000 It was really much more a cultural shift, you know?

00:05:07.000 Right, so it just wasn't received as well.

00:05:10.000 Correct.

00:05:11.000 You are correct, sir.

00:05:13.000 And so we've been used to being on top of the charts, you know, and then when that stops, all of a sudden you're like, well, is everything we're doing, all our ideas, rubbish?

00:05:21.000 But deep down you know they're not, but you're being rejected anyway, and so you have to find a way through that, and that's complicated, I think.

00:05:28.000 It was complicated for a simple girl like me. 0.90

00:05:31.000 Well, I would imagine any time you were as big as garbage was in the 90s, I mean, you guys were gigantic. 0.73

00:05:37.000 I mean, it was hard to go into a clothing store without hearing your music blaring.

00:05:41.000 Yeah.

00:05:42.000 It was mad.

00:05:43.000 It was crazy.

00:05:44.000 It really was mad, yeah.

00:05:45.000 I'm a huge fan.

00:05:46.000 I love you guys.

00:05:46.000 Oh, thank you.

00:05:47.000 So it's kind of weird sitting across from you, but we'll get past that.

00:05:50.000 It's quite nice though, isn't it?

00:05:51.000 It is.

00:05:51.000 It is nice.

00:05:56.000 I'm enjoying myself.

00:05:57.000 You seem to be.

00:05:59.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:05:59.000 But I would imagine that as big as you guys were, you either stay that big and then you become a crazy person. 0.98

00:06:06.000 You're probably better off doing what you did, taking artistic chances, settling in, and then doing what you're doing now, being more comfortable.

00:06:16.000 Yeah, I guess so.

00:06:18.000 I mean, we were lucky we had a manager, a very wise manager at Q Prime Management at the time, who said, what do you want?

00:06:24.000 Do you want a long career?

00:06:27.000 At a lower level?

00:06:28.000 Or do you want a short career at a ridiculously high level?

00:06:32.000 And we were like, we want the long career.

00:06:35.000 And you know, that's exactly what we got in the end.

00:06:37.000 But there was this mad blip that happened for alternative music, which had never gotten really that much pop cultural success, I guess.

00:06:48.000 We were like, we enjoyed this weird rush of alternative music that for a blip ruled the charts.

00:06:54.000 If you weren't an alt band, you were a nothing band.

00:06:57.000 Yeah, you guys caught that wave, that post-Nirvana wave.

00:07:01.000 That's really what it was, right?

00:07:02.000 Yeah, I would love to talk to Chris Cornell.

00:07:05.000 Remember when Chris Cornell did those pop music songs?

00:07:09.000 He went from Soundgarden to this deep, crazy, dark band to weird, poppy music.

00:07:16.000 Yeah, sort of softer and...

00:07:19.000 I'm sure he was just trying to figure out a way to survive, like we all do.

00:07:23.000 It's complicated.

00:07:24.000 For anybody with a career, yourself included, you have to adapt and figure out, well, okay, where do I step to now?

00:07:32.000 It's weird.

00:07:33.000 Well, I think ultimately what you've got to figure out is what are you like?

00:07:36.000 Yeah.

00:07:37.000 It's hard to know what you like sometimes, no?

00:07:39.000 Sure, because if you don't like something, but it's super successful for you, then you might keep doing that.

00:07:44.000 That's very confusing.

00:07:46.000 Yes, Shirley.

00:07:47.000 My goodness, we're getting deep here.

00:07:49.000 We're going deep.

00:07:50.000 Maybe you're my future husband.

00:07:51.000 Oh, Mary.

00:07:53.000 My wife's coming over here soon, too.

00:07:55.000 Better keep that on the DL. I'm sure my husband will be listening and laughing his ass off.

00:07:58.000 Yeah, your husband is named Billy Bush. 0.84

00:08:00.000 He is.

00:08:01.000 It's a different Billy Bush. 1.00

00:08:02.000 Not the grab the pussy Billy Bush. 1.00

00:08:03.000 Correct. 0.99

00:08:04.000 But he really suffered during that time.

00:08:08.000 He got like a hailstorm of abuse via Twitter.

00:08:11.000 I mean, we found it funny, but it was also quite alarming because we were like, oh my God, I hope somebody isn't coming. 0.99

00:08:17.000 Well, what's crazy is that guy, the real grab the pussy, Billy Bush, didn't really do anything. 0.99

00:08:23.000 He was just there. 1.00

00:08:24.000 Yeah, he kind of was a scapegoat in the end, God bless him.

00:08:27.000 I mean, I think he was just trying to be conciliatory as a TV host, you know, and he got, yeah, he lost his job, no?

00:08:34.000 Yes.

00:08:35.000 Yeah.

00:08:35.000 And he was sitting next to this gigantic tycoon billionaire character, this flamboyant, boisterous sort of a guy who was going on his usual flamboyant, boisterous tirades.

00:08:47.000 He probably felt like it was funny.

00:08:49.000 Yeah, I think he probably did, to be fair.

00:08:52.000 But yeah, boy, did he have to pay the price.

00:08:56.000 And my husband, too, by default.

00:08:57.000 But it's funny that, you know, your husband would get hate from it.

00:09:01.000 Or that that guy would get hate from it.

00:09:03.000 People seem to be, like, looking for people to get mad at.

00:09:06.000 Well, I think we're all mad, right?

00:09:08.000 The world is currently angry and we don't really know why, but we get fed a lot of negative information and I don't know if the human brain knows how to cope with it.

00:09:16.000 So it's very early on in this sort of technological revolution, so to speak, and I don't think our brains have quite caught up with how much bad news we're absorbing on a daily basis.

00:09:26.000 And so I think, yeah, I think people are angry.

00:09:29.000 Upset, and they don't know what to do with it, and there's certain figures that attract that kind of rage or wrath, and people use these people as hot rods for their own chaos in their brains.

00:09:45.000 Yeah, no, I think you just nailed it.

00:09:46.000 I think that's absolutely it.

00:09:47.000 We've been talking about it a bunch lately that there's just too many people.

00:09:50.000 There's seven billion people, and to get all the information, especially the bad information from seven billion people, it's unmanageable.

00:09:57.000 It's intense, yeah.

00:09:58.000 Yeah, well said.

00:09:59.000 It's just crazy.

00:10:00.000 You flick through Twitter, you flick through Instagram or look on Facebook, every single thing from every corner of the globe, you're hearing bad news.

00:10:09.000 That's all you want to hear.

00:10:13.000 Good news is not news.

00:10:15.000 It's like, everybody got along great today.

00:10:17.000 That's not a story.

00:10:19.000 You can't sell that.

00:10:20.000 Yeah, I was going to be really curious as to see where the human race goes and how we do manage with all this information.

00:10:27.000 Because even if you stand up for a cause, like today I did a post for Amnesty International who's standing up for the Turkish journalists who are all imprisoned for just doing their jobs.

00:10:40.000 And so you stand up for that cause because I feel very strongly in a free press and you just become...

00:10:47.000 I'm inundated with people saying, well, what about Venezuela?

00:10:50.000 And they have their legitimate concerns about what's going on in their country.

00:10:53.000 What about the women in Argentina, you know, and so on and so forth, and Brazil and Mexico? 0.92

00:10:59.000 I just don't even know what to do with all the information in Venezuela.

00:11:02.000 Yeah, that is a part of the problem, too, is that people expect you to comment on every single thing.

00:11:06.000 And if you comment on one thing, especially if you comment on one funny, silly thing, they'll say, well, what about this?

00:11:12.000 How come you're not talking about this terrible thing that's happening?

00:11:14.000 I know.

00:11:15.000 It's almost like you have a responsibility to alert people of your state of consciousness at every step of the day.

00:11:21.000 Every second of the day.

00:11:22.000 I could definitely do that.

00:11:24.000 Could you?

00:11:25.000 No.

00:11:25.000 Not even I could do that.

00:11:26.000 Just with emojis.

00:11:27.000 Yeah, just with emojis.

00:11:28.000 I feel like emojis are the future.

00:11:30.000 I've been thinking a lot about this.

00:11:31.000 I think emojis, I mean, who is it?

00:11:33.000 I think, was it Eddie Bravo that compared him to hieroglyphs?

00:11:36.000 You.

00:11:37.000 It was Jamie.

00:11:38.000 Oh, that's right, Jamie.

00:11:39.000 Jamie was saying...

00:11:40.000 I like it.

00:11:41.000 We were talking about it that they are a lot like hieroglyphs.

00:11:44.000 One of the reasons why I thought it was Eddie is because Eddie always sends me a series of emojis in a row.

00:11:52.000 He's just being funny.

00:11:53.000 He'll send me a clown and a thumbs up and a black fist.

00:11:55.000 The clown and the aubergine are my two favorites.

00:11:59.000 The aubergine?

00:12:00.000 The aubergine.

00:12:01.000 What's an aubergine?

00:12:02.000 An eggplant.

00:12:03.000 I call it an aubergine.

00:12:04.000 Did you know what it is?

00:12:06.000 I know what you mean now, but...

00:12:08.000 An eggplant?

00:12:08.000 Why is an eggplant the favorite one?

00:12:10.000 I just like it.

00:12:11.000 It looks rude and funny.

00:12:13.000 See, I'm Italian, so I feel like it's racist.

00:12:15.000 I see eggplants.

00:12:17.000 Direct your wrath on me.

00:12:20.000 I'm so sorry. 0.92

00:12:21.000 But I feel like it's like a racist term for black people. 0.99

00:12:26.000 Okay, now you're just being ridiculous. 0.99

00:12:27.000 No, no, it is amongst Italians. 0.99

00:12:29.000 It really is.

00:12:30.000 What is?

00:12:30.000 An eggplant?

00:12:31.000 Eggplants, yeah.

00:12:32.000 Why?

00:12:33.000 What is the word?

00:12:34.000 What's that word, that Italian word that they use?

00:12:38.000 See if you can Google it.

00:12:39.000 Italian word for eggplant used.

00:12:43.000 It's a common thing on the East Coast.

00:12:47.000 I don't get the race thing.

00:12:49.000 I swear to God, it's emystifying.

00:12:51.000 There's a couple choices, I guess.

00:12:52.000 Yeah, there's a word that they would always use.

00:12:55.000 Moulignon, yeah.

00:12:57.000 Moulignon is an Italian derogatory slang term for a black person, and it's derived from the word eggplant.

00:13:04.000 The word melanzane, which is a term for eggplant. 0.86

00:13:11.000 Well, you've crushed my spirits right there and then.

00:13:13.000 I'm so sorry.

00:13:13.000 I made it impossible for you to use eggplant now without thinking about it.

00:13:16.000 Well, then I'm just going to have to go back to the lipstick emoji.

00:13:18.000 That'll do. 0.57

00:13:19.000 So we've killed red Indian and we've killed eggplant. 1.00

00:13:21.000 We have.

00:13:22.000 On one podcast.

00:13:23.000 Good.

00:13:24.000 Yeah, Indian was a thing that you could say all the time when I was a kid, but now if it accidentally slips out of my mouth, you don't say cowboys and Indians anymore.

00:13:33.000 You're supposed to say cowboys and Native Americans.

00:13:35.000 But it doesn't roll off the tongue as quickly.

00:13:38.000 But we can break our habits, can't we?

00:13:40.000 We can, surely.

00:13:41.000 Because we're evolved.

00:13:42.000 We are.

00:13:42.000 We're trying.

00:13:43.000 And we're disciplined.

00:13:44.000 I know you're disciplined.

00:13:44.000 I'm trying.

00:13:45.000 We work at it.

00:13:46.000 You're definitely disciplined.

00:13:47.000 How do you know?

00:13:47.000 Because I've read some stories about how you pulled yourself together over time.

00:13:52.000 And that takes discipline.

00:13:56.000 And I don't know. 0.96

00:13:58.000 I think it takes a lot of balls, actually. 0.98

00:14:00.000 Hmm. 0.99

00:14:01.000 That's a compliment.

00:14:02.000 Thank you.

00:14:02.000 Appreciate it.

00:14:03.000 Thank you, Miss Manson.

00:14:04.000 You guys say bollocks, though, don't you?

00:14:06.000 Did you say it in a positive way, that it takes a lot of bollocks?

00:14:08.000 It takes a lot of bollocks, yeah.

00:14:09.000 Do you say that?

00:14:10.000 Would you say it that way? 1.00

00:14:11.000 No, I say balls. 0.99

00:14:12.000 Because balls is, I don't know, I like the word balls. 0.99

00:14:15.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:14:15.000 Something to do with my accent. 0.98

00:14:17.000 Bollocks is too hard for me to say. 1.00

00:14:19.000 But bollocks is like bullshit, too, right? 0.99

00:14:21.000 Oh, well, yeah, that I would use. 1.00

00:14:23.000 That's bollocks.

00:14:24.000 I would definitely say that. 0.97

00:14:25.000 But that's also balls, right? 0.94

00:14:27.000 Correct. 0.81

00:14:28.000 But it's used in a slightly different... 0.99

00:14:29.000 How could balls be bullshit? 0.99

00:14:30.000 I'm so confused. 1.00

00:14:32.000 I'm confused too.

00:14:33.000 But like I said, just go with the confusion.

00:14:34.000 It's okay.

00:14:35.000 I'm going with it.

00:14:35.000 Everyone's going to be okay.

00:14:36.000 I'm totally going with it.

00:14:37.000 I'm flexible.

00:14:38.000 I try to be more flexible as I get older.

00:14:41.000 I work on that.

00:14:42.000 It's hard.

00:14:43.000 To remain flexible is really a challenge.

00:14:45.000 And I think that's what differentiates the sheep from the goats.

00:14:49.000 Mmm.

00:14:50.000 What's better, a sheep or a goat?

00:14:51.000 To be flexible.

00:14:52.000 The goat's the greatest of all time.

00:14:54.000 I love the goat, but then I'm partial to a sheep.

00:14:58.000 I was reading this article yesterday about music, and they were talking about how people get very rigid in their musical tastes.

00:15:05.000 Like, what they liked when they were younger, they get to a certain stage in their life, and then they just lock on, and any new music they just sort of reject.

00:15:12.000 But there's a neurological reason for that, right?

00:15:13.000 Yeah.

00:15:14.000 Yeah.

00:15:14.000 What is it?

00:15:15.000 Do you know?

00:15:15.000 It's something to do with the pathways in your brain.

00:15:17.000 I don't know that when you first make these insane connections, and it's usually during adolescence, apparently, where you make these connections with, I suppose, adventure and independence.

00:15:28.000 I mean, I don't know.

00:15:29.000 I don't know enough about it, but they have done all these studies.

00:15:32.000 During studies on the brain and dementia, they've discovered all these incredible neurological pathways that are formed by music and how somebody can't even remember...

00:15:42.000 How to, you know, button their shirt, but they can sing every single word and every note perfectly to some opera that they performed when they were young.

00:15:50.000 I mean, I don't know.

00:15:51.000 It's crazy.

00:15:52.000 Yeah, it is crazy.

00:15:53.000 There's definitely weird pathways that get established in the brain.

00:15:57.000 And they say that, like, there's something about music and especially, like, musical pathways that literally invoke these physiological changes in a person that are unlike anything else.

00:16:08.000 Like, when I was a kid, That rocky Eye of the Tiger song would come on.

00:16:15.000 He would just want to start running.

00:16:18.000 He would just want to lift weights or just run up a hill or something like that.

00:16:21.000 I mean, it would make your body change.

00:16:23.000 It was like, if that was a drug, if you could take that drug, if you could sniff it and feel how you felt when that song came on, be like, yeah!

00:16:32.000 Right?

00:16:33.000 I mean, what else does that?

00:16:34.000 There's nothing else that does that.

00:16:35.000 No, that's true.

00:16:36.000 There is nothing else that does that.

00:16:37.000 I'm currently on this mad obsession with Oliver Sacks.

00:16:40.000 Oh.

00:16:41.000 And I'm reading his biography right now, or autobiography, should I say.

00:16:46.000 And he's talking about some of his, like, really sick patients who have dementia or there's some other form of weird virus that shuts them down completely and they can't even stand, really.

00:16:58.000 And then if they play a certain piece of music, someone who is essentially...

00:17:02.000 An unconscious being snaps to, stands up and can dance and recite words even though they've been mute for years.

00:17:10.000 I mean, really crazy, crazy stuff.

00:17:13.000 Yeah, there's something about that art form, about your art form.

00:17:16.000 Music can heal you, Joe.

00:17:17.000 It can!

00:17:18.000 Feel it!

00:17:20.000 I felt it.

00:17:21.000 I felt it.

00:17:22.000 Charged my whole body.

00:17:23.000 My hair stood up on end.

00:17:24.000 What hair I have left.

00:17:26.000 Yeah, there's something to it.

00:17:27.000 There's something to it that's like...

00:17:29.000 I mean, and it's also very bizarre because it's something that people have created, right?

00:17:34.000 It's not something that exists in nature.

00:17:35.000 I mean, it's beautiful sounds in nature like birds chirping and certain animal noises and things that are beautiful.

00:17:40.000 But music is like the...

00:17:45.000 The ability to control notes, right?

00:17:48.000 The ability to create a symphony, the ability to structure a song and put it together with a beautiful voice like yours.

00:17:53.000 That is something that's entirely created by a human being.

00:17:57.000 That didn't exist before human beings existed.

00:18:00.000 And it works only on us.

00:18:02.000 You ever play music for a dog? 1.00

00:18:04.000 They just fucking stare at you. 1.00

00:18:06.000 They don't give a shit. 1.00

00:18:07.000 Dogs have shitty music tastes. 1.00

00:18:09.000 I don't think that's true. 0.99

00:18:09.000 My dog responds to music. 0.99

00:18:11.000 Well, maybe your dog does.

00:18:12.000 Makes sense.

00:18:13.000 Yeah, I suppose she's trained that way, I guess.

00:18:15.000 Yeah.

00:18:16.000 Well, she probably maybe feels like it's important to you, too.

00:18:19.000 Yeah, you're probably right. 0.99

00:18:20.000 Like, if you meet a shitty person, usually they have a shitty dog, because that dog's getting shitty vibes. 0.99

00:18:25.000 There's no such thing as a shitty dog. 1.00

00:18:26.000 Really? 1.00

00:18:26.000 Only a shitty owner who's taught them shitty manners. 1.00

00:18:28.000 But then the dog becomes shitty. 1.00

00:18:30.000 Like if a dog bites your face off, that's a shitty dog. 1.00

00:18:32.000 Okay, fair enough. 1.00

00:18:33.000 That's fair deuce.

00:18:34.000 Although I would argue it's a scared dog, but I'll give you that.

00:18:36.000 I agree.

00:18:37.000 Or a terribly trained dog.

00:18:39.000 It's the owner's fault.

00:18:41.000 I agree.

00:18:42.000 But there's something that we've done with this that I think is really...

00:18:48.000 I think it taps into the human reward system in a way that...

00:18:52.000 What's the human reward system?

00:18:55.000 When people enjoy being around certain people, there's, like, rewards.

00:19:00.000 There's, like, social rewards you get from it.

00:19:02.000 Like, say if you have, like, a leader.

00:19:03.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:19:04.000 We're having a fun time, having a fun conversation and laugh.

00:19:06.000 But, like, say if, like, you were in a tribe of people and there was this one leader or this one, you know, warrior that saved you from the jaguar and you would look up to that person.

00:19:15.000 Like, that's like a hero in a movie, right?

00:19:17.000 Yeah.

00:19:18.000 Like, now...

00:19:20.000 When we tap into these ancient reward systems, I think there were ways that human beings could learn and ways that we could share energy with each other that existed before media, before music, before movies and books.

00:19:34.000 And I think what we've done with media, music and books and movies especially, is tap into those human reward systems in this really crazy way.

00:19:43.000 I love this.

00:19:43.000 You're teaching me something right now that I'm really into.

00:19:45.000 No, seriously, I love this idea.

00:19:47.000 There is hope for the human race after all.

00:19:49.000 Oh, there's definitely hope.

00:19:50.000 We're awesome.

00:19:50.000 We are pretty awesome.

00:19:52.000 Yeah, we suck sometimes. 1.00

00:19:53.000 Yeah, there's a few who suck. 1.00

00:19:55.000 But it's not even 1%. 0.99

00:19:56.000 Is that true?

00:19:57.000 Yeah!

00:19:58.000 I think it's maybe 1%.

00:19:59.000 I think that if you get 300 million people like we have in America, you get about 3 million douchebags.

00:20:06.000 Okay, that's fair.

00:20:07.000 That's fair.

00:20:08.000 And then you have also people that are the same victims as your dog that's a bad dog.

00:20:13.000 Like you have people that are born and raised in horrible environments and abused when they're young.

00:20:19.000 I think that's a giant part of the problem, a giant part of what we are.

00:20:24.000 And if we just address that, it's one of the main problems that I have with our culture is that we don't address, really at all, the raising of children and the doing it from the beginning as a culture.

00:20:37.000 But we don't address very much that's painful or dark or complicated, do we?

00:20:42.000 Not really.

00:20:42.000 We don't talk about death, which I think is a big mistake because then you rear people to not live their lives fully because they're so scared of dying.

00:20:50.000 They spend their whole lives worrying about getting sick.

00:20:52.000 Yeah, they don't even like to talk about it.

00:20:53.000 Yeah, my parents don't like to talk about it.

00:20:56.000 I just think that's so crazy.

00:20:57.000 It's as though if you don't talk about it, it's going to go away somehow.

00:21:00.000 Oh, I don't want to deal with it.

00:21:02.000 Let's talk about something else.

00:21:04.000 Let's go get dessert.

00:21:05.000 Yeah.

00:21:06.000 It's weird.

00:21:06.000 People just shut off.

00:21:07.000 If you mention anything difficult, it just shuts down a conversation.

00:21:12.000 Well, that was one of the main problems that a lot of psychologists had with hiding caskets.

00:21:18.000 Like when they were bringing people back from the war, that they were taking these photographs of the caskets and they wouldn't let them be released.

00:21:25.000 Like it was a big thing during the Bush administration in America.

00:21:29.000 And psychologists were saying, do you understand, like, you are programming people to have a very specific notion of war, then, because you're not showing them the actual consequences.

00:21:39.000 Sure.

00:21:39.000 I mean, in a casket is almost a symbolic consequence, because you're only seeing a box, and you know that a person, a child's, you know, some parent's child is in that box.

00:21:48.000 Sure.

00:21:48.000 You're not even seeing the body.

00:21:50.000 You're not even saying we should see the body so people can understand what a missile does to a person.

00:21:55.000 You're saying the boxes themselves are forbidden to be shown.

00:21:58.000 And that's crazy.

00:21:59.000 Yeah.

00:22:00.000 Well, it's just weird.

00:22:02.000 It's psychological warfare in a lot of ways on the people because it allows people to accept the consequences in some sort of a weird, almost abstract way.

00:22:10.000 They're not seeing the consequences.

00:22:12.000 Well, it's sanitizing everything and not allowing people to grow and expand, I guess.

00:22:17.000 It shrinks our minds in a way.

00:22:19.000 The less we see, the less we can think about, the less we're capable of thinking about in a way.

00:22:23.000 It's really weird.

00:22:24.000 But it goes back to the idea of rearing children, and that goes back to education as well, and that we seem to have fallen by the wayside there too.

00:22:34.000 Well, I think we have, but my feeling...

00:22:36.000 Let's go back to the human reward system.

00:22:37.000 It was much more uplifting.

00:22:38.000 Well, I think it's all connected.

00:22:39.000 Because I think that what we're doing with technology in the form of music and movies and media and all that thing is just one step in this multifaceted experience that we have of integrating technology.

00:22:51.000 And the more sophisticated this technology gets, it seems like the closer it brings people and ideas.

00:22:59.000 And I think that...

00:23:01.000 Honestly, people think that I have too much of a utopian view of it, but I really feel like that technology is essentially going to balance it all out.

00:23:11.000 I really feel like as much as we want to try to hold back information and we try to hold back education or try to program people, I feel like technology is ultimately going to connect people instantaneously with ideas.

00:23:24.000 Well, it's kind of doing that already, really.

00:23:26.000 Sort of.

00:23:27.000 But you can push it aside.

00:23:29.000 You can shut it off.

00:23:29.000 You can walk away.

00:23:30.000 If you have discipline, you can leave your phone at home and go for a walk in the woods.

00:23:33.000 But I feel like we're just one or two generations away from being a completely different thing than we are now.

00:23:39.000 That's the thing that bums me out about dying.

00:23:41.000 That's really pretty much the only thing, is how much...

00:23:44.000 We are going to miss of all the great technological advances.

00:23:48.000 Like how crazy is it going to get?

00:23:50.000 It's going to get crazy.

00:23:51.000 I know.

00:23:51.000 And I'm so sad I'm going to miss so much of it.

00:23:53.000 You might not.

00:23:54.000 You might not miss it because you're on the tip right now of the scientific and medical advancements that are going to allow people to live to be 300, 400 years.

00:24:02.000 Oh God, I hope not.

00:24:03.000 It's very possible.

00:24:04.000 I really, really, really hope that's not the case.

00:24:06.000 Because you worry about overpopulation?

00:24:08.000 Yeah.

00:24:08.000 And yes, and the calcification of the human mind.

00:24:13.000 I worry that Donald Trump's gonna live to be a thousand.

00:24:15.000 Oh God, we all worry a wee bit about that.

00:24:16.000 He's got a lot of money.

00:24:17.000 Yeah, he sure does.

00:24:18.000 He's pretty healthy for a fat guy too.

00:24:20.000 I was thinking that the other day.

00:24:21.000 Guys out there are super active.

00:24:23.000 Why is this?

00:24:24.000 Why is he so preoccupied with fast food?

00:24:27.000 It's really peculiar when you've got all this money.

00:24:29.000 And you're stuffing your face full of the cheapest food you can find.

00:24:32.000 Does he?

00:24:33.000 Apparently he's got a huge fast food preoccupation.

00:24:37.000 Maybe it's a president thing, because Bill Clinton did too.

00:24:39.000 There was a huge issue with Clinton.

00:24:41.000 Well, he was at fast food as well.

00:24:42.000 Well, he had heart problems though, no?

00:24:44.000 Yeah.

00:24:44.000 Yeah, it all caught up with poor Bill.

00:24:46.000 So watch out, Prez. 0.87

00:24:48.000 Yeah, you can't eat fatty foods all the time.

00:24:50.000 We're sloppy. 0.99

00:24:50.000 Well, it's real sugary and cheap crap. 0.99

00:24:53.000 This is just non-nutritious. 0.99

00:24:55.000 It is, right?

00:24:55.000 Every now and again.

00:24:57.000 Every now and again.

00:24:58.000 It's the spot.

00:24:58.000 Get one of those Wendy's double-doubles?

00:25:00.000 One of those things?

00:25:01.000 Those double cheeseburgers?

00:25:02.000 I've never had a double cheeseburger in my life.

00:25:04.000 Ever?

00:25:05.000 Ever.

00:25:05.000 Why?

00:25:06.000 Even I couldn't get my jaws running back.

00:25:10.000 You've really never had a double cheeseburger?

00:25:12.000 I've never had a double cheeseburger.

00:25:13.000 How long have you been in America?

00:25:15.000 Ooh, 11 years.

00:25:17.000 No, nonsense.

00:25:18.000 No one's brought you to In-N-Out?

00:25:19.000 22 years.

00:25:19.000 Yes, of course I go to In-N-Out.

00:25:21.000 So you get a single cheeseburger at In-N-Out?

00:25:22.000 Is that a double?

00:25:23.000 Maybe I have had a double.

00:25:24.000 You never had a double-double?

00:25:26.000 No, I've never had a double-double.

00:25:27.000 So what do you get?

00:25:28.000 I don't know what I get.

00:25:29.000 I've never ordered it.

00:25:30.000 My husband's always the one that sort of barked the machine.

00:25:31.000 Wow, your husband's like your assistant.

00:25:33.000 You're like, get me what I want.

00:25:34.000 I wish he was.

00:25:36.000 Maybe he was for like the first, you know, couple of weeks that we were together.

00:25:40.000 Yeah, when he's trying to...

00:25:41.000 When he's really trying hard to work it.

00:25:44.000 And that has long been left in the dust, I can assure you.

00:25:47.000 Like literally, now I'm like, I have to beg.

00:25:50.000 I had a friend of mine before he's married now, but before he's married, he had gone through a series of really horrendous relationships, and we were sitting around talking once.

00:25:57.000 We were super high, and he goes, I think what I'm going to do is just have two-week relationships.

00:26:04.000 He goes, because two weeks is like the perfect amount of time.

00:26:07.000 You're in love.

00:26:07.000 Only two weeks?

00:26:08.000 Yeah.

00:26:08.000 You're in love.

00:26:09.000 You want to spend all the time together.

00:26:10.000 It's great.

00:26:11.000 And he goes, and then somewhere around then, they just start expecting things from you, and then they get mad at you.

00:26:16.000 In two weeks?

00:26:17.000 Yeah.

00:26:18.000 He's just picking the wrong partners, clearly.

00:26:20.000 Clearly, because he's married now and he's happy.

00:26:22.000 I mean, two years, I think, is like a good honeymoon period.

00:26:24.000 Two years?

00:26:25.000 Really?

00:26:26.000 Things can go ugly in two years.

00:26:28.000 Especially dating an actor.

00:26:30.000 Oof.

00:26:31.000 Oof.

00:26:32.000 I've never dated an actor in my life.

00:26:33.000 Good for you.

00:26:34.000 Congratulations.

00:26:35.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:35.000 No, I couldn't deal with that.

00:26:37.000 Did you?

00:26:37.000 Yeah, actresses, yeah.

00:26:39.000 No dudes, but...

00:26:41.000 If you say actor, girls want to be called actors now. 1.00

00:26:45.000 It's non-gender specific these days.

00:26:47.000 Fair enough.

00:26:48.000 I get that.

00:26:49.000 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:26:50.000 I totally get that.

00:26:51.000 I guess.

00:26:52.000 Yeah, because actress or comedian. 0.98

00:26:54.000 That was a big one.

00:26:55.000 Female comics do not like that. 1.00

00:26:58.000 Don't like being called comedians?

00:26:59.000 No!

00:26:59.000 It makes you seem like a cheapened down comic.

00:27:01.000 Like, my funny comedian friends that happen to have vaginas, they're all comedians. 1.00

00:27:07.000 See, I get that. 0.99

00:27:08.000 I really do get that.

00:27:09.000 And I respect that.

00:27:10.000 The only thing is I love the word actress.

00:27:13.000 Actress is a pretty word.

00:27:14.000 It's a lovely word.

00:27:15.000 Comedienne sounds like a light version of comedian.

00:27:18.000 Yeah, it doesn't have the same kind of gravitas, right?

00:27:22.000 Low fat yogurt or something, you know?

00:27:23.000 Yeah, I guess so.

00:27:25.000 I never thought about it that way.

00:27:27.000 But yeah, I think the more we get rid of gender, actually, the better. 1.00

00:27:31.000 You think so?

00:27:32.000 But isn't it fun to be a girl?

00:27:33.000 It is fun to be a girl, of course.

00:27:35.000 And I think it's fun to be all genders, however you are.

00:27:39.000 But I think when you have to be called something, it's like prison.

00:27:45.000 I don't think we should be living in prisons.

00:27:47.000 Yeah, but we're not living in prisons, but we clearly are different.

00:27:50.000 Like, especially you and I. Of course.

00:27:52.000 You and I are very...

00:27:53.000 We're very different.

00:27:54.000 Very different.

00:27:54.000 Yeah, I'd be super confused if you were anything like me.

00:27:57.000 I'd be like, I don't know what to do with this.

00:28:01.000 Yeah, no, but I think all humans, we're all different, right?

00:28:05.000 I mean, I think it's crazy that we get put into these generalized packs.

00:28:09.000 We kind of do, yeah, but...

00:28:10.000 For men too.

00:28:11.000 There's also just a, I mean, there's a broad spectrum of behavior that is on one side of the fence or the other side of the fence, whether it's male or female.

00:28:19.000 But there's definitely a male and female in most people.

00:28:24.000 And then there's people that are, you know, then it gets real weird.

00:28:27.000 People that are born or in some way don't want to be whatever gender they are. 0.99

00:28:32.000 I think it's kind of cool.

00:28:33.000 I don't think it's that they don't want to be.

00:28:35.000 They just aren't.

00:28:36.000 I think some people just aren't.

00:28:38.000 And some people don't want to be.

00:28:39.000 And I think it's like we were talking about earlier about that Rachel Dolezal woman who's... 1.00

00:28:43.000 I think you and I have to disagree here.

00:28:44.000 Well, this is what I think.

00:28:45.000 I don't think we could ever possibly know the motivation for every single person...

00:28:49.000 You are correct.

00:28:50.000 ...who's transgender or transracial or trans-anything.

00:28:52.000 Well, gender, though, is not as you know yourself.

00:28:56.000 Under no circumstances do you choose your gender. 0.72

00:28:59.000 You're not that powerful.

00:29:00.000 I don't think most people do, but I think some people, it's entirely possible that you could be a woman and decide, you know what? 1.00

00:29:08.000 I want to be a fucking man. 1.00

00:29:10.000 I'm tired of this. 1.00

00:29:11.000 I don't like it.

00:29:12.000 It's well within the realm of possibility.

00:29:14.000 But then that's a different thing, isn't it?

00:29:15.000 I mean, you're right, and I'm sure there are circumstances like that, but that, I think, is a different thing entirely.

00:29:21.000 Maybe, but would it be any less legitimate if a woman felt compelled just by curiosity to become a man versus compelled by her feeling?

00:29:32.000 I think that's identity flirtation as opposed to gender flirtation or gender choice or gender manifestation.

00:29:42.000 I'm using the wrong words here. 0.97

00:29:44.000 I think people could do whatever the fuck they want. 0.96

00:29:46.000 So do I. I'm into that. 0.99

00:29:48.000 I met that lizard dude once in Austin, Texas.

00:29:50.000 Do you know who that guy is?

00:29:51.000 He's turned himself into a lizard.

00:29:53.000 He's essentially tattooed his entire body.

00:29:55.000 No, I know who you're talking about.

00:29:56.000 He split his tongue down the middle.

00:29:58.000 He sat in the front row of my show at the Cap City Comedy Club, and I was like, well, you don't need a lot of attention, do you, buddy?

00:30:03.000 Yeah, no kidding. 0.99

00:30:03.000 Sit right in the fucking front row, looking like a lizard. 0.99

00:30:06.000 Very nice guy, though. 0.99

00:30:07.000 Seemed like a super nice guy.

00:30:09.000 But he's, you know, I mean, look at this guy.

00:30:12.000 Well, that's before he did his whole face.

00:30:14.000 Yeah, I've seen him before.

00:30:14.000 He's kind of amazing looking though.

00:30:16.000 Yeah.

00:30:17.000 Definitely weird.

00:30:18.000 I don't know about amazing.

00:30:19.000 If that was my kid, I'd be super upset.

00:30:20.000 That is amazing.

00:30:20.000 Come on.

00:30:21.000 If you saw that in an art gallery, you would be like, that is amazing.

00:30:24.000 Maybe you and I have a different sense of amazing.

00:30:27.000 Maybe we do.

00:30:28.000 Well, that seems like a guy with drawing on his face.

00:30:32.000 But hey, this is coming from a guy with drawing all over his arms.

00:30:35.000 I think it's pretty incredible.

00:30:36.000 I mean, who am I to say that it's...

00:30:37.000 I mean, that's a cultural thing, right?

00:30:39.000 Like, why is it okay that I have tattoos all over my arms and I don't think it's right to tattoo your face?

00:30:44.000 I wouldn't say that. 0.99

00:30:45.000 Like, you should be able to do whatever the fuck you want. 0.95

00:30:47.000 Yeah, and he has done. 0.98

00:30:48.000 But it's a cultural thing.

00:30:50.000 I mean, for some people...

00:30:51.000 Like, I was in Japan and they made me... 1.00

00:30:53.000 I was in a gym and they made me go and put a long-sleeved shirt on.

00:30:57.000 Because you can't have exposed tattoos like this.

00:31:00.000 Well, I guess because their feelings towards your arms are the same feelings that you're having towards his face, right, Joe?

00:31:05.000 So you were, for one second, the lizard man.

00:31:08.000 Yes, a little bit. 0.99

00:31:09.000 Just for those of you who are not in the studio right now, who are listening, just take my word for it that Joe is fucking with me right now. 0.99

00:31:16.000 No, I'm not fucking with you. 0.99

00:31:18.000 He is. 0.99

00:31:18.000 Guys, he is. 0.99

00:31:22.000 We're having fun.

00:31:23.000 This is a fun conversation. 0.99

00:31:25.000 Don't you think when someone's fucking with you, that's like a negative thing? 0.99

00:31:29.000 No! 1.00

00:31:30.000 No?

00:31:30.000 Oh God, no.

00:31:32.000 No. 1.00

00:31:32.000 I often fuck for fun. 1.00

00:31:38.000 I think we just did a play on words there. 1.00

00:31:43.000 There's life in us yet.

00:31:45.000 Exactly.

00:31:46.000 So what's the latest with you?

00:31:48.000 You guys are touring again.

00:31:50.000 We're going on to in the summer.

00:31:52.000 Yeah?

00:31:54.000 That's only like a month away or something.

00:31:56.000 Just a month away, yeah. 0.98

00:31:57.000 It's hot as fuck here now. 1.00

00:31:58.000 It's hot as fucking America. 1.00

00:31:59.000 It's back! 1.00

00:31:59.000 Stop! 1.00

00:32:00.000 Yeah, it's always hot.

00:32:01.000 Well, you guys are used to rain.

00:32:02.000 I like it cold, I must admit.

00:32:05.000 Do you?

00:32:06.000 Mm-hmm.

00:32:07.000 But we are going out on tour.

00:32:09.000 We're going to do something, in my mind, pretty sort of historical in a funny way.

00:32:15.000 Like we're going out on a headline tour with Blondie.

00:32:19.000 Legendary Debbie Harry.

00:32:21.000 Wow.

00:32:22.000 Do you know her?

00:32:22.000 I do know her, actually.

00:32:25.000 And I love her.

00:32:26.000 And she's been somewhat of a mentor to me, in a way.

00:32:28.000 Because she was managed by a very famous music manager called Gary Kerferst, who managed the Ramones and Talking Heads and Blondie and so on and so forth.

00:32:37.000 He was the one who basically sort of plucked me from my band.

00:32:40.000 He thought I had potential.

00:32:42.000 And he was like, you know, I think you have potential to be...

00:32:44.000 In the music business and he signed me in the end and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:32:49.000 And anyway, he introduced me to Debbie and Debbie came and saw my band open for the Ramones in the Academy in New York during the new music seminar one year.

00:32:57.000 And I was shaking like a leaf.

00:32:59.000 I've told this story a million times, but it's one of my favorite memories of stepping out on stage on the Academy.

00:33:03.000 And of course, Ramones fans were pretty hardcore. 0.69

00:33:06.000 You know, they weren't taking fools lightly. 0.94

00:33:08.000 Yeah. 0.92

00:33:08.000 And you had to prove yourself. 0.92

00:33:09.000 So I was very, very nervous.

00:33:10.000 And I looked down into the moss pit and Debbie Harry was there.

00:33:13.000 And I just was like, I will love you forever.

00:33:16.000 Anything you ask of me, I am your slave.

00:33:19.000 For someone of that caliber to do that, it meant so much to me.

00:33:23.000 And even in times of when I've doubted myself, I always think, Debbie didn't doubt me.

00:33:29.000 Wow.

00:33:30.000 So, yeah, I'm very excited to be going out with her.

00:33:33.000 Wow, that's heavy.

00:33:34.000 I might tear up.

00:33:34.000 Tear.

00:33:35.000 Come on, tear.

00:33:35.000 A little bit.

00:33:36.000 A little bit.

00:33:37.000 Come on.

00:33:37.000 Get into the emotional mindset.

00:33:43.000 She was a very unique historical figure in music.

00:33:47.000 There was no Debbie Harry before Debbie Harry. 0.95

00:33:49.000 There was no Madonna before Debbie Harry.

00:33:52.000 There was no Lady Gaga.

00:33:55.000 She's the archetype, I think, for a modern pop girl.

00:33:59.000 And she was very authentic.

00:34:01.000 Like, there was no questioning her authenticity.

00:34:04.000 Like, she was uniquely eccentric.

00:34:06.000 Oh, she still is.

00:34:06.000 Yeah, I'd imagine.

00:34:07.000 Yeah.

00:34:08.000 I mean, to be 70 and to be still making records, that's incredible.

00:34:14.000 That's pretty badass.

00:34:15.000 It's really badass and really inspiring for other women, you know, who follow in our footsteps, who, you know, will watch.

00:34:22.000 It's the first time I can think of, like, a woman has had a pop career that long.

00:34:26.000 Well, isn't it a new thing?

00:34:28.000 I mean, if you really stop and think about music, really what we're talking about is recorded music.

00:34:33.000 And recorded music in modern times has really only been since the late 20th century, right?

00:34:38.000 I mean, when did people, or the early 20th century rather, when did people first start recording music?

00:34:44.000 We've gone over this before.

00:34:45.000 They started doing it on wax in the 1700s.

00:34:48.000 Is that what it was?

00:34:49.000 Something along those lines?

00:34:50.000 I don't think it was that late.

00:34:52.000 I think it was in the early 1900s.

00:34:54.000 Let's find out.

00:34:55.000 Thomas Edison had those wax cylinders that they were recording, talking, and a little bit of orchestra stuff on.

00:35:01.000 Did you just pull that out of your brain?

00:35:03.000 No, we've actually discussed this.

00:35:06.000 This is one of your favorite topics.

00:35:08.000 No, we have discussed it like fairly recently within the last year.

00:35:11.000 We were talking about how amazing it is that recording things like Mozart or Beethoven, like there was no recording.

00:35:18.000 No, it's extraordinary.

00:35:18.000 It was just written work and, you know, people would duplicate that written work and that's how you would get to see the genius of their ideas.

00:35:25.000 Here, 1877. Wow.

00:35:28.000 Okay.

00:35:29.000 But that's a practical sound recording.

00:35:31.000 Yeah.

00:35:32.000 But when you compare that to, like, a record, a modern record, I mean, we'll call it a record, but, I mean, a recording, a modern recording, like Blondie, like Rapture, or something like that, I mean, that is...

00:35:46.000 There's never been anything like that in human history up until the 19th or the 20th century.

00:35:52.000 I mean, it really didn't exist.

00:35:53.000 No.

00:35:54.000 So when you think about like pop stars, you know, I mean, Etta May or I mean, however far you can go back to where you can legitimately say someone was a popular music star.

00:36:04.000 It is so recent.

00:36:05.000 It's within a hundred years.

00:36:07.000 Well, it's like Elvis, I think, was the first popular star, correct?

00:36:09.000 Right.

00:36:10.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:36:10.000 That's why he went fucking crazy. 1.00

00:36:12.000 There's no road map. 0.99

00:36:14.000 Yeah.

00:36:14.000 Yeah, well, none of them had roadmaps.

00:36:15.000 That's what we forget.

00:36:17.000 We were talking about this recently with a bunch of friends, is how accomplished young musicians are right now.

00:36:22.000 They can be 15 years old and you can watch them perform and they've got all the moves and they can sing perfectly because they've practiced singing along on YouTube to digitally enhanced recordings so they can do stuff with their voice that we never could.

00:36:36.000 And so they're learning at an accelerated rate.

00:36:39.000 Yeah.

00:36:40.000 But they don't understand what it means to have any kind of motivation or like have any authentic taste or, you know, it's really peculiar.

00:36:46.000 They don't have a struggle yet.

00:36:47.000 They're like Terminators.

00:36:50.000 No, you know, they're perfect, but they don't have any...

00:36:53.000 No inside.

00:36:54.000 Well, I'm sure they do have an inside, but it's not fully developed at 15. No, let's go with it.

00:36:57.000 Who's developed at 15?

00:36:59.000 No one.

00:36:59.000 You can abort them.

00:36:59.000 Shut up.

00:37:01.000 Who is like... 1.00

00:37:02.000 It's just you're off the charts right now.

00:37:07.000 But it's true.

00:37:08.000 It's really insane.

00:37:09.000 Yeah, it is.

00:37:10.000 They can sing along to these mad records that have been all sort of, you know, auto-tuned and this, that, the next thing, and they can sing it perfectly. 0.98

00:37:19.000 Well, I was reading about this 24-year-old motivational speaker, and I was like, I want to find that person, tell them to shut the fuck up. 0.99

00:37:26.000 How can they be at 24? 0.99

00:37:28.000 What do you know?

00:37:29.000 What do you know at 24?

00:37:30.000 I don't know anything at 50. Tell people about life at 24?

00:37:33.000 That's preposterous.

00:37:34.000 Yeah, it's preposterous.

00:37:35.000 Yeah.

00:37:36.000 It's like my friend Steve Maxwell says.

00:37:37.000 He said, you should never listen to anyone who is under 40 who is a personal trainer. 1.00

00:37:43.000 He's a personal trainer?

00:37:44.000 He's like, anybody who's under 40 who's a personal trainer? 0.99

00:37:46.000 What the fuck do they know about injuries? 0.94

00:37:48.000 Well, it's true, yeah. 0.99

00:37:49.000 Running the long haul.

00:37:50.000 Yeah, there's a lot to learn.

00:37:52.000 There's a lot.

00:37:53.000 There is.

00:37:53.000 I am amazed that I continue.

00:37:55.000 I thought I had it all sussed out by 30. I mean, I remember thinking, I'm so old and I'm so wise.

00:38:00.000 I mean, I remember thinking that.

00:38:02.000 And then you hit 50 and you're like, oh my God, I knew nothing.

00:38:06.000 Yeah, and then you'll probably think that when you're 70. My dad claims that's the case.

00:38:10.000 He laughs at me.

00:38:10.000 My dad laughs at me when I, you know, say something that he thinks is absolutely ludicrous, you know, and he's like, just you wait.

00:38:18.000 You'll eat those words, you know.

00:38:20.000 Well, I feel like that's a big part of what you see today in social media with young kids espousing really preposterous ideas.

00:38:28.000 They have so little experience, actual life experience.

00:38:32.000 I feel sad for them.

00:38:34.000 Do you?

00:38:34.000 Yeah.

00:38:35.000 I feel sad for all these young hipsters that get lauded by... 1.00

00:38:39.000 You know, fashion magazines, literally at the age of 15. I think it's the fetishizing of young people right now really gives me the creeps and I feel very sad for these young people who basically are like these beautiful butterflies and a, you know, a glass jar gets shoved on top of them and then they're stuck there being cool and hip.

00:38:57.000 Ooh.

00:38:58.000 But with no driver.

00:39:00.000 Nothing to fight against.

00:39:02.000 Nothing to be dissatisfied with.

00:39:04.000 I don't know.

00:39:05.000 It's just peculiar, I think.

00:39:06.000 Meanwhile, they're doing Adderall and having a great old time.

00:39:08.000 They're looking at you. 0.99

00:39:09.000 They're like, this crazy lady. 1.00

00:39:11.000 Yeah, I'm sure. 1.00

00:39:12.000 Oh, so just because you made a bunch of fucking hit records, you think you can tell me how to live my life. 1.00

00:39:16.000 I like being in this goddamn glass jar. 1.00

00:39:18.000 I never for one moment would ever tell somebody how to live their life. 0.99

00:39:22.000 No, I don't think so.

00:39:22.000 What I don't like seeing is people not being allowed to live their lives.

00:39:26.000 Oh. 0.94

00:39:27.000 I saw this kid, somebody sent me this thing on Twitter, some kid, I forget where it was, some pop festival, but he's like 12 years old, playing the guitar, and he's fucking incredible. 0.97

00:39:37.000 I mean incredible. 0.95

00:39:38.000 And they were like saying, he's the next Jimi Hendrix, some little black kid.

00:39:42.000 It was amazing.

00:39:43.000 Just unbelievably talented.

00:39:46.000 And I'm just like, boy, check in with him in 10 years. 0.99

00:39:50.000 He'll be fucking crazy. 0.99

00:39:51.000 Well, that's what it feels like to me. 0.99

00:39:52.000 It's creepy.

00:39:53.000 It's like so many people send me recordings of young, particularly young women artists.

00:40:01.000 And they're like, would you think about supporting this girl?

00:40:04.000 Or what do you think of this?

00:40:06.000 Live your life, right?

00:40:08.000 I think go out and live your life.

00:40:09.000 Don't let your parents figure out your career for you.

00:40:12.000 That's what you're supposed to do.

00:40:13.000 You're not supposed to have your parents who happens to have an in with a well-known singer or a producer or whatever pimping you.

00:40:19.000 That's how you learn.

00:40:21.000 It's by actually doing it yourself.

00:40:23.000 I don't know.

00:40:24.000 I just feel it's creepy and it feels pedophilic to me and I don't like it.

00:40:29.000 It definitely can be, right?

00:40:30.000 Yeah.

00:40:31.000 But when you were young, when did you know that you wanted to be a singer?

00:40:34.000 I don't think I ever knew I wanted to be a singer.

00:40:36.000 Today?

00:40:37.000 Do you know now?

00:40:38.000 Yes, I know now.

00:40:39.000 So something's happened somewhere along the line.

00:40:40.000 But very recently, I mean literally in the last, I'm serious, in the last 10 years, I was like, I'm really good at this actually and I enjoy it and I guess this is what I do for a living.

00:40:50.000 This is my thing.

00:40:51.000 In the last 10 years? 0.99

00:40:53.000 So what was going on with you when Stupid Girl was coming out? 1.00

00:40:57.000 Well, I felt like I'd stumbled into that opportunity, which I did. 0.92

00:41:02.000 First of all, I wanted to be a writer.

00:41:04.000 Then I wanted to be an actress.

00:41:06.000 And then, by total default, I was in a youth theatre when I was young, and I met this guy, and he was like, oh, would you come and play keyboards in my band for a weekend?

00:41:15.000 Because we've lost our keyboard player, and I joined the band.

00:41:17.000 And then I just ended up being in that band for 10 years, playing keyboards and doing back of vocals.

00:41:22.000 I was quite happy.

00:41:23.000 I didn't harbour any ambition to be a lead singer at all.

00:41:27.000 And then just a billion and one things happened and I ended up being the lead singer of this very same band just so that we could survive because we'd been dropped by our record label for going to Berlin and spending all our money on our record advance on drugs.

00:41:46.000 And not have anything to show for it.

00:41:47.000 So the record company dropped us but kept me.

00:41:49.000 And so then I pulled the band in as my band.

00:41:52.000 So we just sort of shifted all the roles.

00:41:54.000 Oh, wow.

00:41:54.000 So I found myself as the lead singer by default.

00:41:58.000 And then our video got made.

00:41:59.000 What kind of drugs?

00:42:01.000 Oh, it was mostly speed and ecstasy.

00:42:03.000 Speed?

00:42:04.000 Mm-hmm.

00:42:04.000 How much money are you spending on speed?

00:42:06.000 Jesus Christ!

00:42:07.000 It was an inordinate amount of money that got spent.

00:42:10.000 It was our entire record advance.

00:42:12.000 How much was it?

00:42:14.000 I can't remember.

00:42:14.000 I think it was something like £100,000.

00:42:18.000 What is that?

00:42:18.000 Like $50,000?

00:42:20.000 American?

00:42:20.000 Somewhere around there?

00:42:21.000 I think it's double that.

00:42:22.000 Double that?

00:42:22.000 Oh, it's $200,000?

00:42:23.000 It's double?

00:42:24.000 Oh, I'm doing the opposite?

00:42:25.000 Oh my God. 1.00

00:42:26.000 How the fuck did you spend $200,000 on speed? 1.00

00:42:28.000 I don't know. 0.99

00:42:28.000 I don't know how we did it. 0.99

00:42:29.000 I mean, it wasn't all on speed and it was alcohol and going out and drinking and partying and just wasting time.

00:42:36.000 In America, we call that going off.

00:42:39.000 We went off.

00:42:40.000 You guys went off.

00:42:40.000 We went totally off.

00:42:43.000 And I wasn't one of the...

00:42:45.000 I was one of the sober ones for the most part. 0.99

00:42:48.000 I mean, you know, and I know I did my share, but by comparison, I kept my shit together. 0.97

00:42:51.000 But anyway, we wasted our opportunity there. 0.97

00:42:54.000 But by default, I became a lead singer. 0.82

00:42:56.000 Our video got played on MTV and then I just chanced upon garbage. 0.98

00:43:00.000 The garbage boys needed a singer and I got hired. 0.93

00:43:02.000 And so I always felt I just fumbled into it by going off, so to speak. 0.97

00:43:07.000 Wow.

00:43:08.000 That's crazy.

00:43:09.000 Yeah, it was pretty mad. 0.95

00:43:11.000 And then I never believed in myself for my whole first half of my, what I call the first phase of garbage. 0.93

00:43:18.000 Wow. 0.66

00:43:19.000 You know, that's a really common thing.

00:43:21.000 We were just talking about this the other day with somebody, I forget who it was, where they were saying that so many really talented people feel illegitimate.

00:43:28.000 They felt like they're not legitimate or they felt- But do you think everybody feels legit?

00:43:32.000 I don't think it's even artists.

00:43:33.000 I think it's everybody.

00:43:34.000 I mean, what parent sits there and goes, yeah, I'm a parent.

00:43:37.000 Yeah, I know how to parent my children.

00:43:39.000 And yeah, I know how to pay the bills.

00:43:41.000 Get the work done and keep the house good.

00:43:43.000 Nobody knows how to do anything, right?

00:43:45.000 No.

00:43:45.000 Well, you definitely question yourself all the time.

00:43:48.000 Yeah.

00:43:49.000 How old are your kids?

00:43:50.000 Well, I have three.

00:43:52.000 I have one that's 20. I have one that's almost nine and one that's almost eight.

00:43:56.000 Wow.

00:43:56.000 Yeah, or almost seven rather and I was hanging out all day with the almost seven yesterday and You know we're just having a great old time like we have days We split up where I just hang out with one kid and my wife will hang out with one kid Because I think sometimes when you get the two of them together the young ones they don't get enough attention especially the little one suffers a little bit so we have like specific days where it's just and so the entire time We're trying to have a good time.

00:44:22.000 We're having fun.

00:44:22.000 But I'm also thinking, okay, I've got to figure...

00:44:25.000 I'm kind of programming her here as this goes.

00:44:28.000 So every question, I have to kind of temper this question.

00:44:30.000 Well, you have to think that these people probably don't know any better.

00:44:35.000 So that's probably why they litter. 0.97

00:44:37.000 She gets mad when she sees people throw cigarettes out the window.

00:44:40.000 I saw a guy throw a cigarette out the window.

00:44:42.000 Did you see that, Daddy?

00:44:44.000 He threw a cigarette out the window.

00:44:45.000 And I'm like...

00:44:47.000 Well, it's definitely not good to throw cigarettes out the window, but you have to think, this poor person, what kind of a mind do they have?

00:44:53.000 The way their brain works, they think it's okay.

00:44:56.000 They're not worried.

00:44:57.000 If I drop something on the ground, I pick it up.

00:44:59.000 Do you pick it up?

00:45:00.000 She's like, I always pick it up.

00:45:01.000 I go, yeah, we pick things up, right?

00:45:03.000 We don't want to litter, because if everybody delivered, we would never be able to get anywhere.

00:45:06.000 It would just be garbage everywhere.

00:45:07.000 It must be so stressful being a parent. 0.95

00:45:09.000 It's stressful, but the reward is...

00:45:14.000 You don't have kids?

00:45:15.000 I don't.

00:45:16.000 It's very hard to describe to someone the love that you experience between you and this little tiny person like me and the six almost seven when when we talk like and she just jumps on me and hugs me like my whole body has this reaction like the love meter It's like,

00:45:34.000 you know a carnival thing where you hit the thing on the bottom and the bell goes ding!

00:45:39.000 It shoots up and hits the bell.

00:45:42.000 It hits the bell every time, whenever she gives me this big hug.

00:45:45.000 It's like, you can't love anybody anymore.

00:45:47.000 Of course not.

00:45:48.000 The love that I have for her, it's weird.

00:45:51.000 It's scary because you're worried about losing them. 0.67

00:45:53.000 It's scary because you're worried about fucking it up. 0.92

00:45:55.000 It's scary because... 0.97

00:45:57.000 Just because it's so powerful.

00:45:58.000 It's really powerful.

00:45:59.000 It changes you.

00:46:00.000 It changes who you are.

00:46:01.000 It 100% changed me.

00:46:03.000 It just made me a completely different person.

00:46:06.000 And it does every day.

00:46:07.000 Every day I'm a different person than I was a week ago.

00:46:10.000 And I talk to a lot of my friends that have kids, and it's the same thing.

00:46:14.000 It changes your level of compassion.

00:46:17.000 It changes who you are.

00:46:18.000 Dave Chappelle said it best to me.

00:46:20.000 He said, it didn't just change how much I love.

00:46:24.000 It changed my capacity for love.

00:46:27.000 I was like, that's it.

00:46:28.000 I think you nailed it.

00:46:29.000 I mean, I have a tiny window into it because my sister, my younger sister, had two children.

00:46:36.000 And I felt towards her children differently than I do any other child.

00:46:40.000 Oh, yeah.

00:46:40.000 So that's just a small window into how I imagine it is for her with her children.

00:46:45.000 And we talk about this a lot.

00:46:46.000 I'm like, I just don't think I could handle that.

00:46:48.000 I'm too hypersensitive to, I think, take the responsibility on of being a parent.

00:46:54.000 You think, though, but it changes you.

00:46:56.000 Like you become, whoever you are now, if a little person comes out of your body, you just, you're like, okay, now I'm Shirley with a person.

00:47:03.000 There's like chapter two, you know, or Shirley 2.0 or whatever it is.

00:47:07.000 Yeah, I'm sure it changes how you view yourself and your function on earth, I would imagine.

00:47:12.000 It does.

00:47:13.000 It does.

00:47:13.000 And it also makes you appreciate, like, my time is fairly, it's flexible in terms of, like, I can manipulate my time.

00:47:23.000 I can kind of choose what I do.

00:47:25.000 Like, I don't really have to do anything.

00:47:26.000 I choose to do a lot of different things.

00:47:28.000 But people that do have to do things, like, especially couples where both work and they work long hours, that's incredibly hard to raise children.

00:47:38.000 Yeah, really hard.

00:47:38.000 I mean you see how tired they are too when they come home from a 9-10 hour day and their kid has been in daycare and the kid just can't wait to see them and you literally only have an hour with them before they go to bed.

00:47:48.000 You're not even raising them.

00:47:50.000 My relationship was like that with my dad.

00:47:52.000 When my mom died a few years ago my dad came over here to Los Angeles to stay with us and we went out for lunch and I'm sitting across from my dad.

00:48:00.000 I'm 45 years old and I'm thinking to myself I have never sat alone with you In a restaurant in my life.

00:48:08.000 Wow.

00:48:09.000 Ever.

00:48:09.000 It was really weird.

00:48:11.000 Wow.

00:48:12.000 Because my dad worked hard, you know, and he was always busy and, yeah, it was an intense realization.

00:48:18.000 So I think it's great that you take time one-on-one with your kids, because I didn't have that with my dad.

00:48:22.000 I didn't have that either. 0.52

00:48:23.000 I try to, well, I mean, I'm sure they're going to learn something that I fuck up that they're not going to do. 0.99

00:48:28.000 You just have to accept you're going to fuck up. 0.99

00:48:29.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:48:30.000 Just don't try to fuck up. 0.99

00:48:32.000 Correct. 1.00

00:48:32.000 Don't try to fuck up. 1.00

00:48:34.000 Try to do your best. 0.99

00:48:34.000 Try and do your best. 0.99

00:48:35.000 But sometimes the things that you do, in adverted commas, get right, are the things that do, I think, the most damage.

00:48:42.000 And sometimes the things that you do wrong, the so-called big mistakes, can also be really good for children.

00:48:48.000 And I'm not talking about when they get...

00:48:49.000 At no point should a child ever be hurt in any way.

00:48:54.000 You know, I'm not saying that's a good thing.

00:48:55.000 That's a terrible thing and that must never happen.

00:48:57.000 But I mean, like, you know, I know a lot of parents who sort of really get down on themselves because they divorce, for a random example.

00:49:04.000 And I have seen children bloom through divorce.

00:49:07.000 Yeah.

00:49:07.000 You know, and I keep saying this to some of my friends who are going through that.

00:49:11.000 It's like, you're not making a big mistake.

00:49:13.000 You're teaching them to not settle.

00:49:15.000 And there's good things that can come from bad things, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

00:49:19.000 Yeah, no, for sure.

00:49:20.000 My parents split up when I was five, and it was a very good thing. 1.00

00:49:23.000 And it taught me that my mom was strong for leaving my dad and that, like, you have to make tough choices in life, and then things are gonna suck for a while, but there's a reason for it.

00:49:33.000 Yeah.

00:49:34.000 But, you know, pressure makes diamonds.

00:49:37.000 You said it much more articulately than I did.

00:49:41.000 But we're getting to the same place, I guess.

00:49:44.000 Yeah, well, it's an uncomfortable moment that I have with a lot of my friends that have children, too, because we sit around and we think about it.

00:49:51.000 We say, well, you know what?

00:49:51.000 You try to protect your kids as much as possible.

00:49:54.000 But everybody that we know that's interesting came from a fucked up background. 1.00

00:49:58.000 Like, all of my friends had fucked up childhoods. 0.99

00:50:01.000 All of them. 1.00

00:50:02.000 All my artistic friends, all my friends that are musicians, all my friends that are comedians, they just fucking came from chaos.

00:50:09.000 And they emerged from this rubble as this person with a purpose.

00:50:14.000 Absolutely. 0.97

00:50:15.000 But see, I've gone quiet and I've gone quiet because it's getting back to the moment that I have or the feeling I have in myself that I am an inauthentic artist because I didn't come from a fucked up background. 0.95

00:50:28.000 You didn't?

00:50:28.000 All my friends, every single one of my friends when I was growing up from the age of five onwards, they came from broken homes.

00:50:35.000 Every single one.

00:50:35.000 Maybe you learned from them.

00:50:37.000 Except, I don't know.

00:50:39.000 But I came from a really happy family.

00:50:42.000 My mum wore a penny.

00:50:43.000 She baked every day.

00:50:45.000 What's a penny?

00:50:45.000 A penny, you know, an apron.

00:50:47.000 Oh, okay.

00:50:47.000 Kind of like what I'm wearing right now, probably enough.

00:50:49.000 But, yeah, she wore an apron.

00:50:52.000 She baked every single day.

00:50:54.000 She, like, warmed our clothes on the stove before we went to school.

00:50:58.000 Wow.

00:50:58.000 She cooked us dinners every single night.

00:51:01.000 They were always at home.

00:51:02.000 They were always there.

00:51:03.000 They loved us.

00:51:04.000 They were never cruel.

00:51:05.000 I mean, I came from the most abnormal, normal family ever.

00:51:10.000 And it's always made me think, well, that means that I'm not, I'm just not an artist.

00:51:15.000 I'm not legit.

00:51:16.000 So crazy.

00:51:20.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:51:20.000 I got fucked up anyway. 1.00

00:51:21.000 Yeah, but it's not mandatory. 0.96

00:51:26.000 It certainly happens a lot of the time, but it can't be mandatory.

00:51:30.000 It happens almost all the time. 0.82

00:51:30.000 I always sort of feel, and this is really sick, a mild envy when I hear my friends talk about their fucked up upbringings because I'm like, God, I'm so normal. 0.82

00:51:42.000 I used to feel that way about people who are drug addicts. 0.96

00:51:45.000 What do you mean?

00:51:46.000 I used to feel that way because all the greats as comedians were drug addicts. 0.93

00:51:49.000 Richard Pryor, Kinnison, Bill Hicks, they were all drug addicts. 0.65

00:51:53.000 Yeah.

00:51:54.000 They all had like huge cocaine problems and they, you know, Hicks was the only one that got through it, but then he wound up dying of cancer, you know, who knows, maybe because of that.

00:52:03.000 But, you know, Kinnison was a cocaine addict.

00:52:05.000 I don't know who Kinnison is.

00:52:06.000 Who's he?

00:52:07.000 You don't know Sam Kinnison?

00:52:08.000 No, I've never even heard of him.

00:52:09.000 Really?

00:52:10.000 Wow.

00:52:11.000 He's Mount Rushmore for sure.

00:52:13.000 He might be the greatest.

00:52:14.000 Well, I think Richard Pryor is the greatest, but he's right up there.

00:52:18.000 Kinnison's like number two in my book.

00:52:20.000 How have I not heard of this person?

00:52:21.000 I don't know.

00:52:22.000 I don't know. 0.81

00:52:22.000 He was a fat guy who wore a beret. 0.81

00:52:25.000 You never seen him? 0.88

00:52:26.000 No, I don't even recognize him.

00:52:27.000 Oh my God.

00:52:28.000 This is like... 1.00

00:52:29.000 Pull up Sam Kinnison's homosexual necrophiliacs. 0.98

00:52:35.000 He did this bit.

00:52:36.000 This is a bit that got explained to me by a girl that I used to work with.

00:52:43.000 This is a bit.

00:52:44.000 I found out about this.

00:52:46.000 Pause for a second.

00:52:47.000 I worked at a...

00:52:48.000 This is one of the reasons why I got into stand-up comedy.

00:52:51.000 I worked at an athletic club in South Boston.

00:52:54.000 It's called the Boston Athletic Club.

00:52:55.000 And I worked with this girl.

00:52:56.000 She was hilarious. 0.53

00:52:57.000 She was a volleyball player.

00:52:58.000 Big, giant girl.

00:52:59.000 She was like 5'11", big athletic, big personality. 0.99

00:53:02.000 Okay, easy, easy.

00:53:03.000 She's hilarious.

00:53:04.000 But what I'm saying is, she told me about, you've got to see this comedian! 0.99

00:53:08.000 Holy shit, was he funny! 0.98

00:53:09.000 She saw him on HBO, and so she starts doing this bit. 0.99

00:53:12.000 The skit.

00:53:13.000 She takes me out to the parking lot, and she's doing this bit about, there's a real news story about these homosexual necrophiliacs who would pay these morgues to spend a few hours undisturbed with the freshest male corpses. 0.87

00:53:27.000 So, play the bit.

00:53:29.000 We'll play the bit here.

00:53:30.000 I read the paper, they said...

00:53:33.000 That a group of homosexual necrophiliacs have been going around to mortuaries offering them money to let them come in at night and spend a couple hours undisturbed with the freshest male corpse. 0.99

00:53:53.000 I wasn't trying to sell this as a fucking home game, alright? 0.99

00:53:56.000 It's a story I read, folks. 0.98

00:53:59.000 Jesus Christ, give me a chance to do some journalistic reporting there, will ya?

00:54:05.000 I felt the same way.

00:54:06.000 I read this thing and went, oh, oh!

00:54:09.000 Oh, thanks for the visual!

00:54:15.000 Hey, I felt sorry for these corpses, man.

00:54:18.000 I mean, you'd think death would be bad enough, wouldn't you?

00:54:20.000 I mean, the one thing that scares the shit out of everybody is death.

00:54:23.000 You don't want to think about it.

00:54:25.000 You don't joke about it.

00:54:26.000 You put it out of your mind.

00:54:27.000 But you figure if you faced it, That's it. 1.00

00:54:30.000 What could be worse than fucking death? 1.00

00:54:32.000 You figure, I got past death. 1.00

00:54:34.000 I mean, you hated it, but at least you lived through it, you know? 1.00

00:54:36.000 You got to buy it and all that shit. 0.99

00:54:38.000 I felt sorry for these corpses, because I know these guys were laying out on slabs. 0.99

00:54:43.000 They're in there going, well, life was tough, and that was pretty hard to live up to.

00:54:50.000 I faced death, and I'm glad I went through it.

00:54:53.000 Well, now I'm ready to spend eternity in heaven and be with Jesus and rock of ages.

00:55:00.000 Hey! 1.00

00:55:01.000 Hey, what's this shit? 1.00

00:55:04.000 Oh, I don't believe this! 1.00

00:55:07.000 There's a nice dick in my ass! 1.00

00:55:12.000 Oh, you mean why it keeps fucking in the ass even after you're dead? 1.00

00:55:16.000 Oh, it never ends! 1.00

00:55:17.000 It never ends!

00:55:18.000 Oh! 0.60

00:55:20.000 So, this girl, she laid down in the parking lot and she was going, you mean life keeps fucking in the ass even after you're dead? 1.00

00:55:28.000 And I'm crying laughing. 1.00

00:55:29.000 I was crying laughing and I was like, I gotta see this, I gotta see this.

00:55:33.000 And so, I think I got it from a video store.

00:55:35.000 I think it was back when you would rent it from a VHS, you know, cassette.

00:55:40.000 And that's how I found out about Sam Kinison, and that's one of the reasons why I got into stand-up comedy, because I didn't know that comedy was ever like that.

00:55:46.000 I thought comedy was a guy who just stood in front of the microphone and said, did you ever notice?

00:55:50.000 Like that kind of stuff.

00:55:51.000 So what does being a comedian to you mean now?

00:55:55.000 Oh, it's a bunch of different possibilities, but it was so chaotic.

00:55:59.000 His comedy was so wild and crazy.

00:56:02.000 He was a real ground-breaker in that way.

00:56:06.000 And why else did you get into being a comedian?

00:56:10.000 I don't know.

00:56:11.000 I got talked into doing it.

00:56:12.000 Were you a comedian at home?

00:56:12.000 No.

00:56:13.000 I wasn't really very funny.

00:56:16.000 I wasn't funny.

00:56:17.000 Did you have siblings?

00:56:18.000 Yeah, I have a sister.

00:56:19.000 How many?

00:56:20.000 One sister.

00:56:21.000 So it was just you and your mom and your sister?

00:56:24.000 Yeah, well, my mom remarried.

00:56:26.000 I stepped out, who she's still with today.

00:56:28.000 And do you like him?

00:56:28.000 Yeah, he's a great guy.

00:56:29.000 Okay.

00:56:30.000 Yeah, super lucky.

00:56:31.000 He's a real good guy.

00:56:32.000 Okay, good.

00:56:33.000 But I got talked into doing stand-up by my friends from martial arts.

00:56:41.000 For real.

00:56:42.000 Well, you must have been funny.

00:56:44.000 Well, I was only funny because it was like gallows humor.

00:56:46.000 We would go to compete.

00:56:48.000 Or we would be about to spar, and I would be the guy who would make everybody laugh.

00:56:52.000 Because everybody was so nervous.

00:56:53.000 Because it was scary. 0.98

00:56:54.000 You beat the shit out of each other, you know? 0.57

00:56:56.000 And then we would go to these competitions, so we'd get on a bus and travel across the country to go fight in these tournaments. 0.87

00:57:03.000 And it was super nerve-wracking.

00:57:04.000 Everyone was super nervous.

00:57:05.000 So you could cut the tension with a knife.

00:57:08.000 So I would always be doing impressions of people, having sex, and making jokes.

00:57:13.000 This was long before I ever thought about being a comedian.

00:57:16.000 I was just trying to lighten up the mood.

00:57:18.000 And that's how I got into stand-up.

00:57:20.000 So, hold on a minute.

00:57:22.000 So, see, this is a bit of a surprise to me because when people fight, you know, semi-professionally or otherwise, or at school or what have you, it's nerve-wracking.

00:57:32.000 That's terrifying.

00:57:33.000 Because you're scared of...

00:57:35.000 Pain, violence, the anticipation of the possibility of losing.

00:57:42.000 You're worried about just all the possibilities.

00:57:46.000 Just the full realm of things that can happen.

00:57:49.000 So why do you do it? 1.00

00:57:50.000 I know I'm sounding like a moron. 0.97

00:57:52.000 I just have never had the opportunity to ask anyone who's ever done this. 0.96

00:57:56.000 I was very insecure and I got bullied and I wasn't big.

00:58:01.000 I was a small kid and I was really nervous and I did not like that feeling at all.

00:58:06.000 We were always moving around a lot.

00:58:09.000 We always moved to new places.

00:58:11.000 I was always the new kid.

00:58:11.000 Were you a military kid?

00:58:12.000 No, my mom married my stepdad.

00:58:15.000 We moved across the country from New Jersey to San Francisco, and then we lived there for a while, and then we moved to Florida, and then we moved to Boston, and he switched careers, and he was a computer programmer, and then we became an architect, and so it was a lot of- Good lord!

00:58:29.000 Yeah. 0.98

00:58:30.000 There was a lot of traveling, and I just was always the new kid, and the new kid gets fucked with. 0.93

00:58:36.000 And most of the time it was fine, but as we started getting older, that's when it got creepy. 0.96

00:58:41.000 Most of the time it was no big deal.

00:58:43.000 Like at 9 and 10, it's no big deal.

00:58:45.000 But when it gets to be like 13 and 14, then it starts getting violent. 0.97

00:58:48.000 And so like kids would pick on me and I didn't know how to fight and it drove me crazy Like I was like god I fucking I hate the fact that when these kids want to fight me I don't know what to do and I'm terrified So I'd be like go go home the long way around so I'd avoid everybody and that kind of shit So I decided to learn martial arts. 0.87

00:59:08.000 I said, well, what am I afraid of? 0.93

00:59:09.000 I'm afraid of people that know how to fight.

00:59:10.000 Well, I really know how to fight So I went into it then it became my whole life like from from High school, freshman year on.

00:59:20.000 Really from 15 is when I went crazy.

00:59:23.000 So from 15 on, that's all I did every day.

00:59:26.000 Like six, seven days a week.

00:59:28.000 I was teaching when I was 17. That's what I was doing like every day.

00:59:35.000 I was teaching at Boston University when I was 18 or 19. That became my whole life.

00:59:41.000 Were you born in Boston?

00:59:42.000 No, I was born in New Jersey.

00:59:44.000 Right.

00:59:44.000 How come you don't have the crazy accent?

00:59:45.000 Got rid of it.

00:59:46.000 Heard myself on TV. I won the Bay State Games.

00:59:50.000 It was this big, like an Olympic festival, where they had all the Olympic sports.

00:59:55.000 Taekwondo had not been in the Olympics yet, but it was about to be, so they had it in the Bay State Games, and I won.

01:00:01.000 So they interviewed me on TV, and I remember I was like, very specifically saying we were working really hard, and I was like, oof.

01:00:09.000 I love that accent.

01:00:10.000 It was so bad. 0.98

01:00:11.000 I heard the video and I was like, oh my god, what the fuck is wrong with me? 0.89

01:00:15.000 Like I had taken on that accent out of insecurity because I've only lived there since I was 13. Right. 0.89

01:00:20.000 So from 13 to 19, in six years, I developed a stupid accent. 1.00

01:00:25.000 You just wanted to fit in. 0.99

01:00:26.000 I wanted to fit in.

01:00:26.000 Yeah.

01:00:27.000 And then I realized how dumb it was, so I abandoned it. 0.76

01:00:29.000 But it'll come out a little bit if I get drunk. 0.81

01:00:31.000 Yeah.

01:00:31.000 Like every now and then.

01:00:32.000 I like it.

01:00:32.000 I think it's cool sounding to me.

01:00:34.000 Because you didn't grow up in it.

01:00:35.000 Yeah, of course.

01:00:36.000 It's gross when you hear it out of girls. 1.00

01:00:39.000 Fuck me harder. 1.00

01:00:43.000 It's just like, it's like too many R, the R thing. 1.00

01:00:48.000 It stretches out.

01:00:49.000 It's wild, yeah.

01:00:49.000 I wonder where it comes from, the mix of the Irish, I suppose.

01:00:52.000 Although the Irish don't speak like that either.

01:00:53.000 No, Irish is beautiful.

01:00:54.000 I like that accent.

01:00:56.000 It's pretty.

01:00:56.000 There's something about the Boston accent.

01:00:58.000 It's just particularly gross. 0.89

01:00:59.000 So hold on.

01:01:00.000 Sorry to ask you these questions.

01:01:02.000 Please go.

01:01:02.000 Don't worry about it.

01:01:03.000 So you are fighting, and then...

01:01:07.000 Your pal talked you into becoming a stand-up comic?

01:01:10.000 My friend Steve Graham.

01:01:10.000 Two of my friends, Ed Shorter and Steve Graham.

01:01:12.000 Steve Graham is still one of my best friends today.

01:01:14.000 He was an ophthalmologist at the time.

01:01:17.000 And so encourage you to what?

01:01:19.000 Go to improv class?

01:01:20.000 You told me I should be a comedian.

01:01:22.000 Like literally grabbed me by my shoulders and said you should be a comedian.

01:01:26.000 So then what happened?

01:01:27.000 I went to an open mic night.

01:01:29.000 I watched amateurs try it.

01:01:30.000 And one of the good things about amateurs is if you go to watch, like most of them don't know what they're doing.

01:01:35.000 They're terrible. 0.98

01:01:36.000 So I was like, okay, well, I can't be as, you know, at least I'm not going to be the only one who sucks. 0.98

01:01:41.000 So like if I go up and do that, I can do what they're doing. 0.99

01:01:45.000 They suck. 1.00

01:01:45.000 I suck too, but they suck. 1.00

01:01:47.000 So it's not like you're going up and Richard Pryor's on. 1.00

01:01:50.000 Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:51.000 Richard Jenny.

01:01:52.000 You felt you could take the competition.

01:01:54.000 Right. 0.99

01:01:54.000 Well, no, I felt like I wouldn't be the only one who sucked. 0.99

01:01:57.000 Like, people who really suck inspire you to do it because they lower the bar of expectation. 0.98

01:02:02.000 Because, like, if I went up there and there was all these really amazing comedians and then me, I'd be like, oh, I can't do this. 0.99

01:02:08.000 I'm fucking terrible at it.

01:02:09.000 Because the learning curve of stand-up comedy is so long. 0.99

01:02:12.000 Sure. 0.99

01:02:13.000 And especially when you're 21, you don't know shit. 0.98

01:02:15.000 I didn't know anything about life or anything. 0.99

01:02:18.000 Well, of course you didn't.

01:02:18.000 Exactly.

01:02:19.000 So I was terrible.

01:02:20.000 But somehow or another, these guys talked me into doing it.

01:02:23.000 And do you still do your stand-up?

01:02:25.000 Yeah, constantly.

01:02:25.000 Yeah.

01:02:26.000 That's great.

01:02:27.000 Yeah.

01:02:30.000 You turned it around on me, Shirley.

01:02:31.000 I sure did.

01:02:32.000 Yeah, I did.

01:02:33.000 Interesting.

01:02:34.000 Clever girl.

01:02:36.000 Yeah.

01:02:37.000 Don't know about that.

01:02:38.000 I wish.

01:02:39.000 You don't think you're clever?

01:02:41.000 I don't think I'm particularly clever.

01:02:44.000 I can think fast on my feet.

01:02:46.000 That makes you clever.

01:02:47.000 But I have a serious attention deficit disorder.

01:02:51.000 Yeah, see, I hear that a lot from people.

01:02:54.000 I usually think that what that means is you really enjoy certain things so much that other things suck for you and you just get distracted.

01:03:03.000 I bet you don't have an attention deficit disorder when you're singing your songs.

01:03:07.000 No, of course not.

01:03:09.000 But that, again, is not material you have to retrieve.

01:03:14.000 It's just sort of in there.

01:03:15.000 You open your mouth and it comes out.

01:03:16.000 Right.

01:03:16.000 But do you think that it's possible that you achieve these high frequencies of delight and of stimulation when you're performing?

01:03:28.000 You've got to think that when you're on stage, what's the biggest crowd you've ever performed for?

01:03:34.000 This sounds like I'm making it up.

01:03:35.000 I don't think so.

01:03:36.000 Because even I can hardly believe it, but we played in front of 300,000 people in Samara, Russia.

01:03:41.000 And that was the trippiest experience of my life.

01:03:45.000 Oh my God!

01:03:46.000 At the time, it was the biggest music festival that I'd ever been.

01:03:51.000 Like, you couldn't see the end of the crowd.

01:03:54.000 Wow.

01:03:54.000 Now I look at Glastonbury and go, meh, small.

01:04:00.000 You know how it goes.

01:04:01.000 Yeah, so think of that.

01:04:03.000 Think of that experience.

01:04:04.000 How many people are ever gonna feel that?

01:04:07.000 How many people are ever gonna rock out in front of 300,000 people?

01:04:11.000 So I think that some people The moments of brilliance, these moments of spectacular experience that they have are so different than most people's lives.

01:04:25.000 I totally disagree.

01:04:27.000 100% disagree.

01:04:29.000 Because I know that people's capacity for joy...

01:04:34.000 It's a certain experience that we all have.

01:04:37.000 I can go out to dinner and if you're having a really great meal and you're with people that you love and you are laughing yourself sick, I have the same feelings as I do when I'm having a good show.

01:04:50.000 It's not like my career is the highlight of my life.

01:04:53.000 It's a joyous part of my life that plays a role in my enjoyment of being on Earth.

01:05:00.000 That sounds very balanced.

01:05:02.000 But I'm not saying that that doesn't...

01:05:03.000 But I think it's true.

01:05:04.000 So I think...

01:05:04.000 I believe you.

01:05:05.000 My point being is that I just think if you enjoy your job, if you love your wife, if you have great sex with your boyfriend or your girlfriend, if you have a baby, you know, that moment when they put the baby in your arms, you know exactly what it's like to play in front of 300,000 people.

01:05:20.000 Hmm.

01:05:21.000 You know?

01:05:21.000 I don't think that's correct.

01:05:22.000 I think that is correct.

01:05:23.000 You're the only one to be able to tell us, though.

01:05:25.000 I'm telling you.

01:05:26.000 I believe you.

01:05:26.000 You must take it from an authority.

01:05:28.000 I guess you're an authority.

01:05:30.000 How dare you argue with me?

01:05:32.000 I cannot. 0.99

01:05:34.000 What I was going to say though is that your experience and the intensity is so high that your capacity to appreciate boring shit is probably very low. 0.96

01:05:43.000 And that's one of the reasons why people would label it like attention deficit. 0.97

01:05:48.000 You probably just don't want to pay attention to shit that you're not passionate about. 0.97

01:05:51.000 I wish that was the case. 0.99

01:05:52.000 But there is moments when somebody's telling me something.

01:05:55.000 And I'm thinking to myself, okay, remember this because this is important and or this is really cool.

01:06:00.000 You could use this.

01:06:01.000 I do that all the time.

01:06:01.000 All the time.

01:06:02.000 I'm going, hold this information.

01:06:03.000 Hold this fact.

01:06:04.000 Hold this.

01:06:05.000 And then I try and tell somebody 24 hours later about this incredible story I was told and I can't remember anything about it.

01:06:13.000 That's called being a person.

01:06:14.000 Drives me insane.

01:06:16.000 Yeah, but you haven't slipped away at all during this conversation.

01:06:18.000 No, I'm intense.

01:06:19.000 You've been locked on.

01:06:20.000 I'm intense and I am awake.

01:06:22.000 You are awake.

01:06:23.000 You're woke.

01:06:23.000 And I'm...

01:06:25.000 Oh, fuck off. 1.00

01:06:27.000 If I hear that fucking expression one more time, I might hit the next person whose mouth it comes out of. 1.00

01:06:33.000 That is an expression that never had its day. 1.00

01:06:36.000 Oh, yes, it had its day.

01:06:38.000 No, it was a joke from the moment it first came out.

01:06:41.000 Trust me, it had its day.

01:06:41.000 With who?

01:06:42.000 Fools? 1.00

01:06:43.000 Yes. 1.00

01:06:45.000 Yes, only fools. 0.99

01:06:47.000 No person that I know ever said that word without being in jest. 0.99

01:06:51.000 Oh, you must be joking.

01:06:53.000 Well, I hang out with a lot of comedians.

01:06:54.000 People use it a lot.

01:06:55.000 Well, they're fast and quick and funny. 0.96

01:06:57.000 But also, they think it's ridiculous. 0.88

01:06:59.000 Well, it's also your job as a comedian to take the piss out of all us norms.

01:07:03.000 That is one thing that I love that you guys say. 0.99

01:07:05.000 Take the piss. 0.99

01:07:06.000 Yeah, I like that expression. 0.99

01:07:07.000 That is a great expression.

01:07:08.000 Now, Scotland has some incredible...

01:07:12.000 Yes.

01:07:12.000 Incredible expressions.

01:07:15.000 One of the best things that happened to me lately was I got retweeted by William Gibson.

01:07:21.000 Really?

01:07:21.000 Who I'm a big fan of.

01:07:22.000 And he retweeted a link that I'd done for the NME on Scottish swearing. 0.98

01:07:29.000 And the fact that he had reposted my tutorial on Scottish swearing made my fucking life... 0.91

01:07:36.000 Call me sad if you want, but it was like the most glorious moment of my career. 0.96

01:07:40.000 That's not sad at all.

01:07:41.000 There's nothing sad about that.

01:07:42.000 I was so chuffed.

01:07:43.000 But yeah, the Scots are really funny.

01:07:45.000 You know, it's a small culture because it's bad weather.

01:07:48.000 I mean, these are stupefying sort of cliches I'm spewing here.

01:07:53.000 But because it's a small country, because it's bad weather, because we spend a lot of time talking to one another, passing one another in the street, there's a lot of humour that in America I find is not quite as acute.

01:08:06.000 You know, people are used to verbally sparring in Scotland because you're against people all the time.

01:08:11.000 Pushing past them in shops, you know, traveling in the tube, being on the bus, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:08:15.000 Whereas in America, everything's more spread out and you're not around people so much.

01:08:19.000 So when you are in face to face with them, people are a little more polite.

01:08:22.000 In Scotland, there is absolutely no politeness.

01:08:26.000 Well, you guys have that big comedy festival there every year.

01:08:29.000 Edinburgh.

01:08:29.000 Yeah.

01:08:30.000 Have you been there yet?

01:08:31.000 No, haven't been. 0.99

01:08:31.000 Well, get your arse over there. 0.99

01:08:32.000 I need to. 1.00

01:08:33.000 Ari Shafir raves about it, but that motherfucker goes everywhere. 1.00

01:08:36.000 He's crazy. 1.00

01:08:37.000 You should go there. 0.79

01:08:38.000 It's incredible.

01:08:38.000 It's an incredible circuit for funny men like yourself.

01:08:42.000 You guys have Billy Connolly.

01:08:43.000 He's hilarious.

01:08:44.000 He came from there.

01:08:45.000 Billy Connolly is great and hilarious.

01:08:48.000 Hilarious, yeah.

01:08:49.000 He's not well, though.

01:08:50.000 No, he's not?

01:08:51.000 He's not doing that?

01:08:52.000 He's got a really sad, degenerative disease, sadly.

01:08:55.000 Oh, no.

01:08:56.000 Like, what is it?

01:08:56.000 Yeah, we're gonna lose him soon, I think, of fear.

01:08:58.000 Oh, no.

01:08:59.000 Really?

01:08:59.000 What is it?

01:09:00.000 I think it's Parkinson's?

01:09:04.000 Or dementia.

01:09:05.000 I can't remember.

01:09:06.000 It was one of the two.

01:09:08.000 Anyway, he's a brilliant mind.

01:09:10.000 Very funny man. 0.93

01:09:11.000 That sucks. 1.00

01:09:12.000 But you should get your arse over there. 1.00

01:09:14.000 They would love you. 0.96

01:09:15.000 That bad weather thing, I think that's why Boston has so many funny comedians.

01:09:18.000 I'm sure it does. 1.00

01:09:19.000 Same shit. 1.00

01:09:20.000 I'm serious. 1.00

01:09:21.000 I mean, it is a ridiculous cliche, but I'm sure it plays a small part in...

01:09:24.000 Oh, it's not cliche at all. 0.68

01:09:26.000 Culture, yeah.

01:09:27.000 100%, yeah.

01:09:28.000 I mean, in Boston, the same thing.

01:09:29.000 A lot of bad weather, a lot of cold snow, people indoors, people...

01:09:34.000 Yeah, long winters, I guess.

01:09:35.000 That's true.

01:09:35.000 Oh, yeah.

01:09:36.000 No tolerance for stupid shit. 1.00

01:09:37.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:09:38.000 No tolerance for...

01:09:39.000 Also, work ethic, like hard work ethic there.

01:09:41.000 Very hard. 0.99

01:09:42.000 Yeah, no tolerance for meandering bullshit. 0.99

01:09:46.000 No, it's very different. 0.99

01:09:47.000 It's a different way of thinking, certainly, than Los Angeles, in my experience.

01:09:51.000 They're soft out here.

01:09:52.000 People are soft.

01:09:53.000 People are very polite, and they are soft, for want of a better term.

01:09:58.000 I find that sometimes when I make jokes, people don't know how to flip it back.

01:10:03.000 In Scotland, everybody's joking all the time, and it's really fast dialogue.

01:10:08.000 Yeah, people panic.

01:10:09.000 People panic.

01:10:10.000 They're scared they're going to offend you.

01:10:13.000 Believe me.

01:10:14.000 They say the wrong thing.

01:10:15.000 Yeah, sometimes I have to go on double dates with my wife and sometimes I'll crack a joke and the whole table will be like, what?

01:10:23.000 Yeah, that's me too.

01:10:24.000 What have you done?

01:10:25.000 And I always go home and in the car I'll say to my husband, I'm really sorry if I embarrassed you tonight.

01:10:30.000 And he says, he's always got this classic, he went, you didn't embarrass me, you only embarrassed yourself.

01:10:36.000 Is he serious or joking?

01:10:37.000 Kind of half and half.

01:10:38.000 I mean, it's definitely, we both know when I've said something mildly inappropriate.

01:10:44.000 Do you feel like you're, like, because you're from Scotland, that you have, like, to temper that all the time?

01:10:49.000 I do try and temper it a lot, but sometimes I forget, you know?

01:10:52.000 And then there's the crickets over, you know?

01:10:55.000 Oh, my God.

01:10:56.000 My poor husband, who's very, very sort of quiet.

01:11:00.000 Like, he's very quiet.

01:11:01.000 Oh.

01:11:02.000 And he thinks a lot before he speaks, and I can just see him in his mind.

01:11:07.000 I mean, he loves me, and it doesn't bother him at all.

01:11:10.000 He doesn't get embarrassed.

01:11:12.000 But he has to...

01:11:13.000 But you can see him girting his loins, you know, like, oh, God, did she just say that?

01:11:18.000 What was the expression you used?

01:11:19.000 Girting his loins.

01:11:20.000 Girting his loins.

01:11:21.000 Girting.

01:11:22.000 I don't even know what that means.

01:11:23.000 Girting?

01:11:24.000 What is girting? 1.00

01:11:25.000 Google it, bitch. 1.00

01:11:25.000 Oh. 1.00

01:11:31.000 I think you're the first person on this podcast to ever say Google a bitch to me. 0.99

01:11:35.000 That's hilarious. 0.99

01:11:37.000 Girding.

01:11:37.000 How do you spell it?

01:11:39.000 Gird.

01:11:40.000 G-I-R-D-I-N-G. Jamie, you never heard that before, have you?

01:11:44.000 This is the first time in all my years I've heard girding.

01:11:48.000 Girding your loins.

01:11:49.000 I would imagine be clenching.

01:11:51.000 Yes, you're right.

01:11:53.000 Context.

01:11:54.000 Put it together.

01:11:54.000 Gird.

01:11:55.000 Here we go.

01:11:55.000 In circle.

01:11:56.000 With a belt or a band.

01:11:58.000 A young man was a...

01:12:00.000 Wants to be girded with a belt of knighthood.

01:12:03.000 Oh, okay.

01:12:04.000 Secure.

01:12:04.000 You have to look up Scottish gird.

01:12:07.000 Well, it makes sense.

01:12:08.000 Girding.

01:12:08.000 You're talking about constricting.

01:12:10.000 Girding.

01:12:11.000 Gird your loins.

01:12:12.000 Gird one's loins. 0.97

01:12:14.000 Prepare and strengthen oneself for what is to come!

01:12:19.000 Get ready or gear up!

01:12:23.000 Gird your loins.

01:12:24.000 Wow.

01:12:25.000 That's a good one.

01:12:25.000 We are learning on this show.

01:12:27.000 This is a show of education.

01:12:29.000 Stick around.

01:12:29.000 There's plenty more where that goes.

01:12:33.000 So are you fired up about this tour?

01:12:35.000 Are you excited about this?

01:12:37.000 Of course, yeah.

01:12:38.000 My God.

01:12:39.000 Yeah, I love playing.

01:12:40.000 I mean, I'm sure there is a certain kind of high you get when you go off on the road and you can stop worrying about bills, stop worrying about money, stop worrying about the pain in your ankle.

01:12:50.000 You just have no worries.

01:12:52.000 You just go on the tour bus and you get bussed from A to B. You get a little email every day that tells you exactly what you're doing at noon.

01:13:01.000 Do you have a tour manager that handles all this stuff?

01:13:04.000 We have a tour manager, yes.

01:13:04.000 Oh, that's nice.

01:13:05.000 Yes.

01:13:06.000 So, I love going on tour, and it's an honor to be playing with Blondie, and the fans are very excited.

01:13:14.000 How many days do you go for?

01:13:15.000 I think it's about seven weeks all in all, which is a small tour for us.

01:13:20.000 That's a long time.

01:13:21.000 We normally go out for a year.

01:13:22.000 A year!

01:13:24.000 A year?

01:13:24.000 Yeah.

01:13:25.000 On and off, you know.

01:13:26.000 I mean, you come home for bits, but generally it's a sort of year-long thing.

01:13:29.000 It used to be two years, but then the music industry got crushed by music file sharing.

01:13:34.000 And so it's a slightly different game now.

01:13:37.000 But isn't the touring business the same?

01:13:40.000 Or how does that work?

01:13:42.000 Well, yes and no.

01:13:44.000 I mean, the problem with the touring business now is that it's the only way a musician can make money.

01:13:48.000 So now the competition to score venues in which you can play is getting higher and higher and higher.

01:13:55.000 I noticed that as a comedian.

01:13:57.000 Really difficult.

01:13:57.000 It's a huge issue.

01:13:58.000 Like, I have to book stuff like a year in advance.

01:14:01.000 In advance, yeah.

01:14:01.000 So book Edinburgh Festival next year.

01:14:04.000 Maybe.

01:14:05.000 Come on, you'll love it.

01:14:07.000 You'll learn all kinds of phrases that you can employ in your stand-up that nobody's ever used in America.

01:14:12.000 Lots of original material.

01:14:14.000 Hmm, maybe.

01:14:17.000 Hmm.

01:14:18.000 So you guys, though, you were in the business when the money was being made.

01:14:23.000 Yes, we were.

01:14:24.000 Oh my God.

01:14:25.000 It was like, what is it, around like 2000 when the floor dropped out?

01:14:29.000 The floor was beginning to drop out and then 2001 came around in September 11th.

01:14:34.000 Well, Napster was, yeah, that was the beginning of the end of the year.

01:14:37.000 Yeah.

01:14:38.000 Did you see the writing on the wall?

01:14:39.000 Did you think they were going to be able to patch that hole up?

01:14:41.000 No, I totally saw the writing on the wall.

01:14:42.000 I actually wrote about it.

01:14:43.000 At the time, I ran a blog, a music blog, which was one of the first back then, because musicians didn't have blogs.

01:14:50.000 We didn't really use computers up to that point.

01:14:52.000 So I had this blog, and I was very vocal about Napster, and I could foresee the issues that presented themselves.

01:15:01.000 But the industry itself was so greedy, it refused...

01:15:05.000 To adapt.

01:15:06.000 What do you think could have been done?

01:15:10.000 I don't know.

01:15:11.000 It's not my place to worry about it really, but they just continued to want to make money via CDs and physical sales and they refused to make the kind of deals that they really needed to.

01:15:23.000 Digital deals.

01:15:25.000 Yeah.

01:15:25.000 It took a while before people started selling things on iTunes and what have you, but there wasn't really a venue for it before that.

01:15:32.000 They would have had to create like...

01:15:33.000 They would have had to create it, but they were the only ones who had the power and the financial resources to do so.

01:15:39.000 And as a result now, of course, they're the only ones making money.

01:15:42.000 The record companies continue to make vast amounts of money off artists.

01:15:47.000 YouTube makes vast amounts of money off artists and the artist makes nothing.

01:15:51.000 I don't think the general public are fully aware of what a crime spree it is.

01:15:55.000 Crime spree?

01:15:56.000 It's a crime spree.

01:15:57.000 It's a crime spree.

01:16:00.000 Who's committing the crimes?

01:16:01.000 Well, they're tiny crimes committed against each artist that compiles a vast library of digital content through which massive companies, conglomerates, make money from by just sheer mass.

01:16:17.000 But the artist themselves makes, you know, less than a penny a pop.

01:16:21.000 Less than a penny a pop, you know?

01:16:23.000 So, like, if you guys, like, I bought your albums on iTunes.

01:16:27.000 Well, we're a bad example, too, because we are our own record label at this point.

01:16:31.000 You are your own record label.

01:16:33.000 Yes.

01:16:33.000 We're a bad example.

01:16:34.000 We're one of the lucky ones.

01:16:35.000 When did you figure this out? 0.99

01:16:38.000 By a lot of getting fucked up the arse and no lube was used. 0.99

01:16:43.000 We were around long enough that some of our masters reverted to us and so we could make really lucrative deals for ourselves and protect our catalogue. 0.99

01:16:52.000 It's blah, blah, blah.

01:16:53.000 It's so boring.

01:16:54.000 It's not boring.

01:16:55.000 It's fascinating to me.

01:16:56.000 But for young artists, I don't know.

01:16:58.000 I despair.

01:16:59.000 It's like, you know, you're hooked up to a record label.

01:17:01.000 The record label makes money by your records getting played on YouTube, for an example.

01:17:05.000 You don't.

01:17:06.000 Not really.

01:17:07.000 I mean, it's like a 0.0375 percentage of a penny that you might get played after about a thousand million plays on YouTube.

01:17:19.000 I mean, it's bizarre.

01:17:22.000 But, you know, it's how it is.

01:17:24.000 What is the justification for a record company at this point?

01:17:27.000 It seems like...

01:17:28.000 Distribution.

01:17:29.000 Yeah, but like, where are they distributing it?

01:17:32.000 All over the world.

01:17:33.000 But to where?

01:17:34.000 In what manner?

01:17:36.000 In a variety of different manners.

01:17:39.000 I mean, they now do 360 degrees, so they take a percentage of absolutely everything a band earns, which was not the case before.

01:17:45.000 Generally speaking, they now sew up your publishing, they sew up your performance rights, they sew up your merch, any endorsements you get. 0.94

01:17:52.000 So that seems fucked up to me. 0.99

01:17:53.000 It is fucked up. 0.99

01:17:55.000 Doesn't seem like it's worth it. 0.99

01:17:56.000 Like, what do they bring to the table?

01:17:58.000 All they are is just a bunch of people stealing money.

01:18:00.000 Except if you're a massive pop star, like you're a Beyonce or a Gaga or Kate Perry or Bieber or what have you, then that company can use its resources to make you even bigger.

01:18:12.000 And that's why these pop stars who continue to make commercial sounding music get bigger and bigger and bigger and more and more powerful until they can just buy their way into the consciousness of public culture.

01:18:25.000 Hmm, but radio is not much of a thing anymore.

01:18:28.000 No, no, no, it's not radio anymore.

01:18:29.000 But it's visibility.

01:18:30.000 You have to have visibility.

01:18:32.000 So what is it that's getting people visible these days?

01:18:35.000 Like it used to be a song would be a top 40 hit on the radio and then everybody would hear about it and you'd want to go out and buy the record.

01:18:42.000 Well, I think most young people get it on the web.

01:18:45.000 Right.

01:18:46.000 But viral music...

01:18:48.000 If you release a song with your label, it's your own thing, and you put it on YouTube, and say someone like me comes along that has a lot of Twitter followers, and I say, this is awesome, and I retweet it, and then a bunch of other people retweet it, that's all it takes today, right?

01:19:03.000 Yes and no.

01:19:04.000 I mean, you have to have a song, though, that's easily digestible, which is why there's so few musicians now taking real risks, because if they take a risk...

01:19:13.000 They don't have a shareable song, you know, that appeals to the masses, then so you die.

01:19:19.000 You see what I mean?

01:19:20.000 I mean, I'm not articulating myself very well.

01:19:21.000 That Kendrick Lamar guy, is that guy, is he independent?

01:19:24.000 Is he the guy that's independent?

01:19:26.000 Chance the Rapper.

01:19:27.000 Chance the Rapper.

01:19:27.000 He's the guy that's independent.

01:19:28.000 And he's enormous, right?

01:19:30.000 Yes. 0.99

01:19:31.000 So how the fuck did he do it? 0.99

01:19:33.000 Well, there's obviously always an exception to the rule. 0.99

01:19:35.000 And he's extraordinary.

01:19:36.000 You know, he's an extraordinary talent.

01:19:38.000 And usually when somebody hasn't reached public consciousness yet, there's a lot of hype around them.

01:19:45.000 You know, people want to be in the know.

01:19:47.000 They want to talk about the new artists that everybody doesn't know about, so on and so forth.

01:19:51.000 So they enjoy like a massive swell.

01:19:53.000 Right.

01:19:54.000 And hopefully he'll be able to build upon that, but it'll be harder for him the next time around.

01:19:59.000 What I'm getting at is that it is fascinating to me that the record companies have managed to stay even remotely relevant.

01:20:05.000 Well, because they made all these deals with all these new...

01:20:09.000 Companies.

01:20:10.000 I know, but that's where it gets really creepy, right?

01:20:13.000 I think it's creepy.

01:20:14.000 It is creepy.

01:20:15.000 It is creepy.

01:20:15.000 If someone is not in the business, it's creepy because I'm looking at what they bring to the table, and there's not a lot.

01:20:21.000 Well, they bring, as I said, distribution.

01:20:23.000 I know this firsthand because it's very difficult for us to distribute our music because we don't have a distribution label that can compete.

01:20:32.000 Right, but when you say distribution, distribute it where?

01:20:35.000 Right.

01:20:35.000 Everywhere, wherever they can.

01:20:37.000 So whether that's ads on the street, whether that's ads on the television, whether it's ads on the radio, whether it's ads on YouTube, and so on and so forth.

01:20:46.000 It's just an accumulative awareness of an artist.

01:20:50.000 So they're almost manufacturing public interest?

01:20:54.000 Kind of, yeah.

01:20:56.000 I mean, they have to have a semblance of something good. 0.97

01:21:00.000 You can sell shit, as it turns out, but that's, again, the exception to the rule. 0.98

01:21:05.000 Generally speaking, they'll have a catchy song. 1.00

01:21:07.000 And if they push it to enough minds, eyes, they can have a hit.

01:21:14.000 Wow, what a weird transition.

01:21:16.000 They're like vampires.

01:21:17.000 They figured out how to remain indoors.

01:21:19.000 Yeah, it's very strange and it's kind of sad, really.

01:21:25.000 That's why you're seeing fewer and fewer artists that have long careers, because, like I said, you can generate a lot of excitement when it's your first record.

01:21:33.000 That's sort of when it's easiest.

01:21:35.000 Right.

01:21:35.000 By the time it comes to your second record, a lot of these artists that we hear about are already dead and buried under a billion and one other new artists.

01:21:44.000 Yeah, I'm sure you read that Courtney Love article that she wrote many, many years ago about the music business, about how complicated it is, and this is pre all of this digital stuff.

01:21:54.000 She wrote this way back in the day when she was explaining how these artists get fucked over by music companies about how everything gets written off as an expense.

01:22:04.000 So by the time they get paid, everybody else has been paid, everybody else is, like, the record companies made money, the executives have made money, and then the artists get money.

01:22:13.000 Yeah.

01:22:14.000 And all the expenses get written off as expenses that the artists have to pay for.

01:22:18.000 But you have no control over the expending.

01:22:20.000 Right.

01:22:20.000 So for a random example, you can turn up at an airport.

01:22:24.000 You've flown from LA to London.

01:22:27.000 You arrive, and there's a limousine waiting for you.

01:22:30.000 And you don't even question it.

01:22:31.000 You're like, oh, this is the Transpo the record company have sent. 0.92

01:22:34.000 They take you to this ridiculous hotel, the posher than you've ever been in your life. 0.72

01:22:38.000 You don't think about it because the record company's paying for it. 0.93

01:22:41.000 They throw a huge big party.

01:22:43.000 Wow, how generous.

01:22:44.000 Our record company is so amazing.

01:22:45.000 Well, look at this incredible party.

01:22:46.000 They're charging you for it.

01:22:48.000 They're charging you for every single thing, and yet none of it gets run through you for your approval.

01:22:52.000 So you have no power over the economic spending, but you get charged back absolutely every single expenditure.

01:22:59.000 Not only that, the salaries of the people that run these companies, all that is dependent upon you selling your art.

01:23:05.000 That's right.

01:23:05.000 And when things are going well, everyone's there going, didn't we do an amazing job?

01:23:09.000 You know, worship me.

01:23:11.000 Literally everyone at the record company is like, you owe us a thank you and aren't we amazing.

01:23:15.000 Is that how they talk to you?

01:23:16.000 No, but it's an inference.

01:23:18.000 Like, yeah, I did that.

01:23:19.000 We did this.

01:23:21.000 Look at what a great job we did for you and your band.

01:23:23.000 And you're like, yeah, great.

01:23:24.000 Thank you so much.

01:23:25.000 That is wonderful.

01:23:26.000 And then the second something goes wrong is you're on your own.

01:23:29.000 You guys need to figure this out.

01:23:31.000 We're just your record label.

01:23:32.000 We can't.

01:23:33.000 You know, I mean, it's just like it's difficult to deal with at first, but then you get used to it.

01:23:39.000 Now, in the early days, did they take a piece of your tour?

01:23:42.000 No.

01:23:43.000 No, they never have with us, but they do now with young bands.

01:23:45.000 It's called the 360 deal, where they take a piece of everything.

01:23:48.000 How much do they take?

01:23:49.000 I don't know.

01:23:50.000 It's different for every band.

01:23:52.000 Every single band has to negotiate its own stance, you know?

01:23:54.000 What's a normal?

01:23:57.000 Absolutely, no idea.

01:23:58.000 Fifteen, twenty percent.

01:24:00.000 Twenty percent.

01:24:00.000 So they would take twenty percent of all your touring.

01:24:03.000 So they would be like, if you had a five person band, they'd be like the fifth person in the band.

01:24:07.000 Correct.

01:24:07.000 Boy, the merch!

01:24:09.000 Your fucking t-shirts? 1.00

01:24:11.000 Holy shit! 1.00

01:24:12.000 Yeah, they take everything. 0.99

01:24:14.000 It's pretty weird and pretty grim right now.

01:24:17.000 What's weird is like, what are they...

01:24:19.000 I don't understand what they're doing.

01:24:21.000 Well I don't think they do either.

01:24:22.000 I think, to be honest, they're still trying to figure out what their role can be in this new world.

01:24:28.000 You know, it's difficult for them.

01:24:32.000 Wow.

01:24:34.000 Life is tough.

01:24:35.000 Well, it's a fascinating time because this digital thing that came along.

01:24:40.000 What's really interesting is that, you know, we saw when the economy fell apart, right?

01:24:45.000 We saw banks getting bailed out and we saw these music companies going under.

01:24:52.000 We saw like a lot of issues, a lot of collapses.

01:24:55.000 And it's all because of these emerging technologies.

01:24:59.000 But these emerging technologies also, on the flip side, make it so much easier for people to find out about you.

01:25:05.000 Yes.

01:25:06.000 And slowly, I think things will...

01:25:08.000 I think it will balance itself out again.

01:25:10.000 Right.

01:25:10.000 I think younger artists are going to get way smarter than we ever were and just go, hold on a minute, we're not signing these rights to you.

01:25:16.000 They have to, because there's no reason for that today.

01:25:19.000 It just doesn't make it...

01:25:20.000 That's what's so confusing to me.

01:25:21.000 Like, giving away your merch and your touring...

01:25:24.000 Unless they're booking the tour for you, unless they're acting as a manager...

01:25:28.000 No, they're not doing that. 0.97

01:25:28.000 See, how the fuck are they getting a piece? 0.97

01:25:30.000 That's what I'm saying. 0.99

01:25:31.000 Don't ask me.

01:25:32.000 That's where an agent gets a piece because they book it.

01:25:35.000 They set it up.

01:25:36.000 They arrange the publicity.

01:25:38.000 They do all that.

01:25:39.000 They deserve a piece.

01:25:40.000 That's a business deal.

01:25:41.000 It seems like they're just stealing money.

01:25:44.000 Well, it seems a little bit like that, I would agree.

01:25:46.000 I mean, for instance, in our business, we make 10% of everything we earn.

01:25:54.000 So that's basically, we know that we can make a certain amount of money and by the time we've paid everybody...

01:26:01.000 We'll take 10% home.

01:26:03.000 For all the band members?

01:26:04.000 Each band member gets 10%, so 40%.

01:26:07.000 Okay, 40%.

01:26:08.000 Of what we make.

01:26:09.000 And this is not even taxes.

01:26:10.000 You're not even talking about taxes.

01:26:11.000 We're not talking about taxes.

01:26:12.000 By the time the taxes decimate, you know, you were decimated.

01:26:16.000 But...

01:26:17.000 We're one of the bands who don't have to pay a percentage of our touring and our merch.

01:26:22.000 And we're one of the bands who get a very high royalty on our records because we only give away a tiny, tiny percentage of every record to our distribution company.

01:26:34.000 So we're one of the lucky ones.

01:26:35.000 So we're always thinking, well, if this is how it is for us, how is it for all these other young artists?

01:26:42.000 Yeah.

01:26:42.000 And there's a big thing about young artists, they have to pretend that they're rich.

01:26:45.000 So everybody has to drive around a Ferrari, you have to have a $30,000 watch on your wrist, you have to walk around like a baller.

01:26:51.000 But I really reject all that and I think I advise everybody else to reject it too.

01:26:55.000 I think we're beginning to move towards a new world order because the worshipping of money, we can't sustain our lives and our world the way things are right now.

01:27:04.000 Well, it comes from people being poor and wanting to aspire to be rich, and then once you make it, you have to sort of put that show on, right?

01:27:12.000 I mean, that's a huge thing in the rap community, right?

01:27:15.000 With rappers, it's almost mandatory.

01:27:17.000 It's very rare that someone bucks the trend where they're not wearing a lot of jewelry and driving around a Bentley.

01:27:22.000 Although I feel that, again, that's changing too slowly, you know.

01:27:27.000 I've never fallen in love with those kind of acts, you know, whereas fur coats and limousines and I don't know, it's just not my style.

01:27:35.000 Yeah, no, it's, well, I mean, it comes from, you know, Economically deprived people that finally break through.

01:27:43.000 Oh, of course.

01:27:44.000 I understand.

01:27:45.000 It's always been...

01:27:46.000 But it's almost like the fun part of the rap business.

01:27:51.000 Like a big part of the fun part. 0.99

01:27:52.000 I mean, how many fucking rap songs are about jewelry and diamonds and cars and mansions and... 0.96

01:27:59.000 You see, when I was growing up, as we were talking about being the same age earlier on, it was really uncool to talk about money. 0.99

01:28:06.000 And all the cultural heroes didn't have money and would never talk about money.

01:28:12.000 And actually often it was heartbreaking when you've discovered they were rich because they were kind of our working men's heroes, you know, our working man heroes.

01:28:19.000 Like go back to Kurt Cobain.

01:28:20.000 He wore like Converse All Stars and ripped up jeans and flannel shirts.

01:28:24.000 Even further back than that, you know, like John Lennon or somebody like that.

01:28:28.000 Lou Reed.

01:28:28.000 Yeah.

01:28:29.000 All these cats, you know.

01:28:30.000 But that's what I was sort of indoctrinated in when I was growing up.

01:28:34.000 Right.

01:28:34.000 For which I'm actually eternally grateful for.

01:28:36.000 I don't want to be somebody who worships money.

01:28:39.000 Well, it's a foolish thing to worship because, you know, ultimately what an artist is doing is they're trying to express themselves in the most unique way possible and connect with people, right?

01:28:53.000 You're trying to show the world through your eyes. 0.69

01:28:55.000 You're trying to express yourself.

01:28:56.000 And if all you're trying to express is that you want to stack checks, stack...

01:29:02.000 What is it?

01:29:03.000 What do they call it?

01:29:04.000 Stack on deck?

01:29:05.000 What's that?

01:29:06.000 Stacks on deck.

01:29:07.000 Stacks on deck.

01:29:08.000 That's like a big thing, the rappers, those kids today.

01:29:11.000 Talking about stacks.

01:29:12.000 I wouldn't mind a stacks on deck, actually.

01:29:13.000 Stack on deck.

01:29:14.000 Just to have a little cushion.

01:29:16.000 Yeah, it's always nice to have a cushion, right?

01:29:18.000 But I feel like these days are long gone.

01:29:21.000 It is crazy, though, that you guys only get 10% and you really stop and think about it all and then you pay taxes on the 10%.

01:29:27.000 I don't think people understand that.

01:29:28.000 No, I really don't think people understand it.

01:29:31.000 But at the same time, nobody wants to hear a musician whine.

01:29:34.000 No.

01:29:34.000 But I know many people who have very modest jobs who are way wealthier than we are at this point.

01:29:42.000 But that's life.

01:29:44.000 I never became an artist because I wanted to be rich.

01:29:47.000 Right.

01:29:48.000 Well, you would be so much happier being who you are than not being able to sing and being wealthy.

01:29:55.000 Exactly. 0.95

01:29:56.000 And I also have met a lot of rich people in my time and they're miserable as hell. 0.69

01:29:59.000 There certainly can be.

01:30:01.000 Chasing that.

01:30:01.000 Yeah, very isolated.

01:30:03.000 And I know, I could count on my hands the amount of really rich people I know who live happy lives, who seem like they know what to do with their money.

01:30:11.000 And these people definitely are out there.

01:30:13.000 You know, they have it all.

01:30:14.000 They have happy marriages, happy kids, balanced kids, you know, they know when to have fun, they know how to work hard, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:30:21.000 But they're the exception to the rule.

01:30:22.000 Yeah, it's super rare.

01:30:23.000 Well, the pursuit is such a strange pursuit because, you know, oftentimes when you're pursuing wealth, you're pursuing wealth at all costs.

01:30:33.000 I mean, the ultimate goal is the score that you put on the board.

01:30:36.000 I mean, that's the Gordon Gekko philosophy.

01:30:39.000 Greed is good, right?

01:30:40.000 Or greed will protect me.

01:30:41.000 I mean, I understand it, why people...

01:30:45.000 And they're not always wrong either, where money can protect you from a lot of difficulties.

01:30:50.000 That's our president.

01:30:51.000 I mean, our president is essentially the greatest good guy.

01:30:54.000 I mean, that is who he is.

01:30:57.000 I mean, that's what he's done.

01:30:58.000 I mean, he has pursued wealth at all costs.

01:31:00.000 But he was also born into wealth.

01:31:02.000 A little bit, yeah.

01:31:03.000 I don't think it was a little bit.

01:31:04.000 I think it was a substantial amount of money he inherited.

01:31:07.000 Well, he was given $2 million to start his business, his first business.

01:31:11.000 And he talks about it as small loan.

01:31:12.000 Small loan of $2 million.

01:31:15.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:31:16.000 Yeah, I mean, it's...

01:31:18.000 He certainly has inherited quite a bit of it, no doubt about it.

01:31:21.000 But my point is that his philosophy and what he's always pursued is extravagance, like the big gold letters on the side of the skyscrapers.

01:31:29.000 That's his thing.

01:31:31.000 In a lot of ways, it's a dangerous ideology for a country to aspire to.

01:31:37.000 Because everybody can't...

01:31:40.000 It's not possible.

01:31:41.000 Can't attain that.

01:31:42.000 So what are you then saying to people who have that, who will never have that?

01:31:45.000 That's kind of what leaves me in great dismay.

01:31:48.000 I understand the pursuit of money and economic well-being, but I feel like, what do we then say to the people that don't have that and never will have that?

01:31:59.000 There has to be something else other than the worshipping of money.

01:32:03.000 Yeah, it's a hollow pursuit.

01:32:04.000 And it's a pursuit that's not examined closely enough for its hollowness, if that's a word.

01:32:11.000 I was having a conversation once with this friend of mine who is a pretty radical black guy.

01:32:17.000 He's a pretty radical African-American and just very proud of African-American heritage.

01:32:23.000 And he...

01:32:24.000 He went on this thing about how black people used to be kings.

01:32:27.000 He's like, we were kings.

01:32:29.000 Do you understand that?

01:32:30.000 I go, stop.

01:32:31.000 I go, everybody can't be a king.

01:32:33.000 Because if you have a bunch of kings, to be a king is to be a dictator.

01:32:37.000 That means you're dominating people who aren't kings.

01:32:40.000 That's not a proud thing.

01:32:42.000 You've got to stop saying that. 0.95

01:32:44.000 You say it's the wrong thought process, but it's the thought process is his in his eye He had examined it like his in his ideas like at one point in time We were Africans we were kings we were the we were on top and then you know slavery and all this other stuff So his like his thought process was kind of convoluted and by saying we were kings I was like you don't want to be a fucking king man Like nobody should be a fucking king should be zero kings You definitely don't want to see we were kings like we can be kings again like don't be a king Yeah, 0.96

01:33:13.000 I don't want to be king.

01:33:14.000 I don't want to be a queen.

01:33:15.000 Well, it's a big thing with fighters.

01:33:16.000 Like, some fighters call themselves king this or king that.

01:33:19.000 They're like, it's a part of their name, you know?

01:33:22.000 It's a weird...

01:33:23.000 And it's only African-American guys. 0.89

01:33:25.000 I don't know any white guys that call themselves king.

01:33:27.000 Oh, come on! 0.99

01:33:28.000 I don't.

01:33:29.000 Oh, please! 0.70

01:33:29.000 Fighters? 0.70

01:33:29.000 White fighters? 0.70

01:33:30.000 Oh, you didn't know about that world.

01:33:32.000 Yeah, like, King Bobby Green, King Moe.

01:33:35.000 I know like five or six.

01:33:38.000 But I guess sometimes when you feel that you're at a disadvantage in a society, you know, words are powerful and the words we tell ourselves are really powerful and perhaps you can manifest a power that you need sometimes.

01:33:54.000 We all need it sometimes.

01:33:56.000 I know I need it myself.

01:33:57.000 You know, where, you know, you think to yourself, okay, you need to remember what you have done, what you've accomplished, who you are, who your mother is, you know.

01:34:05.000 I think that there's a lot to be said, I guess, for the casual use of certain words.

01:34:11.000 But you're right.

01:34:11.000 I mean, as we continue to use these words, we have to examine their meaning.

01:34:17.000 Yeah, I definitely think that's the case.

01:34:19.000 I think that the wealth at all costs is a foolish pursuit that people look at when they don't have the wealth.

01:34:25.000 I mean, that's when it becomes an attractive thing, is the idea that, you know, you've just got to get that paper.

01:34:31.000 Or when you've got the wealth.

01:34:32.000 I think the greediest people are the people who have got shitloads of money.

01:34:35.000 That's why we see a lot of these...

01:34:37.000 These people with money wanting to have their taxes cut rather than inject some taxes into the community.

01:34:44.000 I'd much rather live in a more pleasant community than sit in my golden tower by myself with riots going on on the street.

01:34:53.000 I feel like if you make everybody happier, you can still be rich, but you're going to have a nicer garden to walk out into.

01:35:01.000 That's a very good attitude.

01:35:02.000 It's a very good attitude.

01:35:03.000 I think it's a weird game that people play where it becomes just about getting those points up on the board.

01:35:09.000 And the numbers become meaningless.

01:35:12.000 You don't think, I have $30 million.

01:35:15.000 I can't spend this.

01:35:16.000 If I live a normal life, I'm good.

01:35:18.000 They don't think that.

01:35:19.000 They think, I need $50 million.

01:35:21.000 I need an island.

01:35:22.000 I want a jet.

01:35:22.000 Well, there's that question, how much is enough, babe?

01:35:24.000 How much is enough?

01:35:26.000 And, of course, the more you accumulate, the more your expenses are, and the more you want.

01:35:31.000 So it just goes on and on and on and on.

01:35:33.000 There's an amazing Radiolab podcast that's out now about Bernie Madoff.

01:35:37.000 Oh, there's a show coming up too, right?

01:35:40.000 I'm dying to see that.

01:35:41.000 Robert De Niro is playing Bernie Madoff.

01:35:42.000 Michelle Pfeiffer. 1.00

01:35:43.000 She's still hot as fuck. 1.00

01:35:44.000 She's so hot. 1.00

01:35:45.000 She's got to be 80, 90 years old now. 0.97

01:35:47.000 She is still so beautiful.

01:35:49.000 She's so hot. 0.97

01:35:49.000 It's crazy. 0.97

01:35:50.000 Underutilized actress.

01:35:51.000 I'm looking forward to that.

01:35:52.000 Is she?

01:35:53.000 Underutilized?

01:35:53.000 Sorry, I interrupted.

01:35:53.000 Carry on.

01:35:54.000 No worries.

01:35:54.000 But it's just the interview him.

01:35:57.000 And you get to hear him talk, and the reporter called him in jail.

01:36:02.000 And it's a really fascinating way they have to communicate, because they're only allowed to communicate for 15 minutes, and then they have to, the phone is disconnected, and then they have to wait 15 minutes before they can reconnect.

01:36:12.000 So he's doing this.

01:36:14.000 Yeah, that's just the rules of the prison.

01:36:16.000 So they're doing it.

01:36:17.000 I mean, he's in there forever. 1.00

01:36:19.000 He's never getting out of that fucking cage. 0.99

01:36:22.000 Yeah, but it's fascinating when you hear him. 1.00

01:36:24.000 He has zero empathy.

01:36:26.000 I mean none.

01:36:28.000 It's weird.

01:36:29.000 It's weird hearing him talk about these people that he ripped off and finding these like, oh, they're fine.

01:36:35.000 These people, you know, they had money.

01:36:37.000 It's like, you know, it's no big deal.

01:36:40.000 You're listening to the way this guy is sort of rationalized, but he is essentially the poster boy for that greed at all costs because he was just running a Ponzi scheme, stealing money from people.

01:36:51.000 It's funny, I was again talking about this with my husband earlier on today, because we were talking about what is the difference between a Republican and a Democrat?

01:36:59.000 Like, what is essentially the difference?

01:37:01.000 Because I know lots, I have very good friends who are Republicans who I respect enormously, and they have taught me a lot, and they have changed the way I view the world, and so on and so forth.

01:37:12.000 But essentially, I wonder...

01:37:14.000 Is it that Democrats are able to utilize their imagination and a Republican is less imaginative?

01:37:22.000 I mean, I don't know.

01:37:23.000 I'm musing out loud.

01:37:24.000 I have no answers.

01:37:25.000 I'm just curious about what drives someone towards the left and what drives someone towards the right.

01:37:31.000 Because it's certainly not that one side is good and one side is bad.

01:37:35.000 One side is really smart and the other side isn't.

01:37:38.000 It's nothing to do with that.

01:37:39.000 So what is it that drives us towards...

01:37:44.000 These embattled positions that right now in America seem so acute.

01:37:49.000 There just seems to be no merging of the two sides and I'd love to know why.

01:37:53.000 I wish I knew more about how that all works.

01:37:57.000 I think people are very easily influenced.

01:37:59.000 I think people are very tribal.

01:38:00.000 And I think people, it's very easy to influence someone to get them to adopt a predetermined pattern of thinking.

01:38:06.000 And if that predetermined pattern of thinking is right wing or left wing, if you're around those people and you seek social status by committing to a certain ideology, You get embedded in it.

01:38:16.000 It becomes a part of your thinking.

01:38:17.000 It becomes a part of your life.

01:38:19.000 And then that is the pattern that you bore.

01:38:21.000 You dig deep.

01:38:22.000 You dig deep trenches in terms of your psychology.

01:38:25.000 You dig deep trenches in your mind that are unwavering.

01:38:29.000 And whether they're left-wing or right-wing, it becomes very problematic when you have two teams like that.

01:38:34.000 We were talking about Haaland the other day, that Haaland has something like 17 different parties, viable parties.

01:38:41.000 You know, unlike what we have, where we have this one, two, and then we have a few joke parties, like the Green Party, that no one takes seriously.

01:38:47.000 Libertarians, nobody takes seriously.

01:38:48.000 They never even come close to winning.

01:38:50.000 And when you have one or two, and one of them is conservative, and one of them is liberal, it just automatically, people identify with one or the other. 0.97

01:39:00.000 And they, whether it's from upbringing, or the community that they're attached to, or what have you, or life experiences past generations, Positive or negative, they just immediately gravitate towards one or the other, they dig in, and then they start talking shit about the left, or they start talking shit about the right, 0.98

01:39:16.000 and you know, you got Salon.com, and you got Fox News, and everybody's lobbing bombs at each other, and it's just fucking weird. 0.95

01:39:22.000 But why have we not seen any break?

01:39:24.000 I mean, I get that, generally speaking, like I understand, and I totally agree with what you're saying, that generally that is what occurs.

01:39:31.000 But surely on both sides of the fence you have free thinkers.

01:39:35.000 There must be a few on either side.

01:39:37.000 I think there's more now than ever before.

01:39:39.000 But this is a very weird time in terms of Trump and Trump winning because he's sort of engaged the...

01:39:50.000 There's a bunch of people that are not necessarily political, that are really into being a right-winger now. 0.99

01:39:56.000 It's almost like online trolls and people that just like to be a part of a team, and they just like to fuck with people who they call snowflakes or liberals. 0.99

01:40:04.000 It's weird. 0.99

01:40:05.000 It's a weird time.

01:40:06.000 I think we're going to get through it.

01:40:08.000 Of course we'll get through it.

01:40:08.000 I think it's like the Goldwater Republican days.

01:40:11.000 I think we need to have bad examples that we need to go, well, let's not do that again, and then collectively...

01:40:17.000 The arc of history is long.

01:40:19.000 It is.

01:40:19.000 And the age of the world is infinite.

01:40:22.000 It is, but America is young as fuck. 1.00

01:40:25.000 And that's part of the problem. 0.99

01:40:26.000 It's this weird new experiment in self-government that's really only been going on for a few hundred years.

01:40:32.000 And it's easy to look at a few hundred years as being a long time, but it's really not.

01:40:35.000 No, it's not.

01:40:36.000 Especially you guys in Scotland, you know.

01:40:38.000 You guys have been around forever.

01:40:39.000 We've been around forever. 1.00

01:40:41.000 Fucking Braveheart days and shit. 1.00

01:40:42.000 Yeah. 0.99

01:40:43.000 But the thing about the free press, that's what worries me as a foreigner living in this country and seeing this sort of stuff that's being spewed about the free press really is worrisome.

01:40:54.000 It's worrisome when it comes from the president himself.

01:40:57.000 There's only been two presidents in our history that have actually gone to war with the press.

01:41:01.000 And one of them was Richard Nixon.

01:41:03.000 I mean, this is just an unprecedented time that someone disrespects the idea of the press and news.

01:41:11.000 And ideas being challenged.

01:41:12.000 I get it.

01:41:13.000 Nobody likes getting challenged.

01:41:15.000 It doesn't feel very nice when somebody goes, no, I disagree with you.

01:41:17.000 It doesn't feel good.

01:41:18.000 But, you know, aren't we all at the point where we're willing to at least...

01:41:22.000 Listen and start like...

01:41:23.000 We should be.

01:41:24.000 Yeah, but it's very scary, I think.

01:41:26.000 Well, he's a dictator in a lot of ways.

01:41:28.000 I mean, and then he was challenged the other day by CBS. They were asking him about Obama wiretapping.

01:41:34.000 The lie that he made up of it.

01:41:35.000 Yeah, and he wound up...

01:41:36.000 Well, see, there's some...

01:41:37.000 You could say it was a lie, but there's some validity to it where there was some surveillance being going on.

01:41:44.000 But whether or not it was Obama or whether or not it's standard surveillance that the NSA has been perpetrating for a long time...

01:41:51.000 Which I think was the case.

01:41:52.000 I think it's more that. 0.99

01:41:53.000 I think fucking everybody's getting spied on. 0.99

01:41:56.000 I think that's really what's going on. 1.00

01:41:57.000 So you can say, I'm being spied on.

01:42:00.000 I think you'd be correct.

01:42:01.000 But you say, Obama's spying on me.

01:42:03.000 I don't think that's correct.

01:42:05.000 He walked out the interview.

01:42:07.000 Yeah, he walked out when they were challenging.

01:42:08.000 He doesn't like being challenged.

01:42:10.000 He doesn't like...

01:42:10.000 You know, he doesn't like anybody questioning him and he feels like he could just leave.

01:42:14.000 He doesn't feel like the press is important.

01:42:15.000 He feels like he's got a strong enough base and all these people that will just yell out fake news.

01:42:21.000 I mean, he's made this sort of meme.

01:42:24.000 When he pointed at that CNN guy and said, you are fake news.

01:42:27.000 Like, what?

01:42:29.000 This is a scary time.

01:42:30.000 Yeah, very disturbing.

01:42:31.000 But I think...

01:42:32.000 In some ways, that's good.

01:42:34.000 And this is why.

01:42:35.000 I think we need, as human beings, need resistance.

01:42:40.000 We need something to push back against.

01:42:42.000 And it helps us.

01:42:43.000 It helps us sort of reinvigorate our collective ideas and reinvigorate, knowing now that this is possible.

01:42:51.000 We didn't know that this was possible before.

01:42:53.000 No.

01:42:53.000 We didn't think he was going to win.

01:42:54.000 And if he did win, Jesus Christ, we didn't think he was going to win like this.

01:42:58.000 No.

01:42:58.000 And didn't think that he was going to sort of dismantle the EPA and do all these different things he's doing.

01:43:03.000 Take away the fucking satellites they use for climate. 0.99

01:43:06.000 I mean, there's a lot of shit that's going on that's very problematic to science and scientists. 1.00

01:43:11.000 And they're being really frustrated right now. 0.99

01:43:13.000 So now they know.

01:43:15.000 Now they know.

01:43:15.000 And now we know.

01:43:16.000 No, I totally agree.

01:43:17.000 And I think the US press, since September 11th, have actually, the standard of journalism has been sliding now for a decade, if not longer.

01:43:29.000 And now all of a sudden, journalists are being held to account and they are having to step up their game again, which I think is great for the American people to enjoy good journalism.

01:43:40.000 Yeah, I think you're right.

01:43:42.000 Yay! 0.99

01:43:42.000 So we managed to take something relatively sad. 0.99

01:44:11.000 And, you know, whether it's full left-wing like Salon.com or full right-wing like Breitbart, both of them are problematic.

01:44:20.000 And that's where the New York Times has to really step up.

01:44:23.000 Which I think they're trying to.

01:44:24.000 I think you're right.

01:44:24.000 Yeah, I think they are.

01:44:26.000 Yeah, I mean, it's weird times, but weird times create great art.

01:44:30.000 No, it does.

01:44:31.000 Well, it creates good people, too.

01:44:34.000 I think what you were saying earlier on is really true.

01:44:37.000 When people are tested, that's when you see them at their best.

01:44:42.000 Pressure creates diamonds.

01:44:43.000 Pressure creates diamonds.

01:44:44.000 I'm stealing that from you.

01:44:45.000 It's not mine.

01:44:46.000 Who's is it?

01:44:47.000 I don't know.

01:44:47.000 It's old term, I believe.

01:44:49.000 It's good.

01:44:50.000 Yeah, it is good.

01:44:50.000 It's real.

01:44:51.000 It's legit.

01:44:53.000 We're getting profound in here, aren't we? 0.99

01:44:55.000 Yeah, we girded our loins and shit. 0.99

01:44:57.000 We sure did. 0.99

01:44:58.000 We had a lot of things happen.

01:44:59.000 Listen, you've got to get out of here.

01:45:01.000 So do you.

01:45:02.000 Yes, I do.

01:45:03.000 So where can people find out tour information? 0.56

01:45:07.000 And Garbage is your Twitter handle.

01:45:09.000 Do you handle all that? 0.97

01:45:11.000 Do you do that, Sev?

01:45:12.000 For the most part, I do.

01:45:13.000 I try and...

01:45:14.000 I didn't like the feeling of somebody pretending to be me and putting words into my mouth.

01:45:17.000 So generally speaking, I do take care of the social media.

01:45:20.000 That's awesome.

01:45:20.000 Well, it's a bit of a pain, but...

01:45:23.000 I farm mine out to China now.

01:45:25.000 I might farm mine out to Scotland.

01:45:27.000 What I do is I say just...

01:45:28.000 You read my tweets and whatever I say like that, just say that.

01:45:31.000 Use woke.

01:45:32.000 Say woke a lot.

01:45:33.000 Say woke and lit.

01:45:34.000 Use swears a lot.

01:45:35.000 That was lit.

01:45:36.000 Yeah.

01:45:36.000 Lit?

01:45:37.000 I don't use that one.

01:45:38.000 Good.

01:45:38.000 I was lit.

01:45:39.000 Thank God.

01:45:40.000 It was lit.

01:45:41.000 It was lit, yeah.

01:45:42.000 How about it was fire?

01:45:44.000 I haven't heard that one, but that's old school.

01:45:46.000 That's Viking terminology.

01:45:48.000 Is it?

01:45:48.000 Yeah.

01:45:49.000 You said it like you owned it.

01:45:50.000 It's my people.

01:45:51.000 I do own it.

01:45:52.000 I'm 100% Viking. 1.00

01:45:53.000 Don't fuck with me, Joe Rogan. 1.00

01:45:54.000 100%? 1.00

01:45:55.000 100%.

01:45:55.000 I've had a DNA test.

01:45:57.000 Really?

01:45:57.000 That was run by my city of Edinburgh.

01:45:59.000 I'm super impressed.

01:46:00.000 Thank you.

01:46:01.000 I'm sitting here trying to impress you.

01:46:03.000 You win.

01:46:04.000 There it is.

01:46:06.000 Rage and Rapture tour. 0.99

01:46:08.000 Blondie and garbage. 1.00

01:46:09.000 It looks exciting. 1.00

01:46:11.000 It looks exciting as fuck. 0.98

01:46:13.000 And all this is available online. 0.95

01:46:16.000 Where?

01:46:16.000 Where can they get all the details?

01:46:19.000 I'm ashamed to say, I would imagine it's on our website, which is garbage.com.

01:46:24.000 People can find it.

01:46:25.000 People can find it.

01:46:26.000 If you can't find it, just Google it.

01:46:28.000 Don't show up. 1.00

01:46:28.000 If you can't find it, you're a moron. 1.00

01:46:31.000 August 11th, that's my birthday. 1.00

01:46:31.000 You're going to be in Austin, Texas. 1.00

01:46:32.000 Hold on.

01:46:33.000 What did you say?

01:46:34.000 August 11th, that's my birthday.

01:46:35.000 You're going to be in Austin, Texas.

01:46:36.000 Yeah.

01:46:37.000 I'm an August baby as well. 1.00

01:46:39.000 Oh, shut the fuck up. 1.00

01:46:40.000 Oh, shut the fuck up. 1.00

01:46:40.000 I am. 1.00

01:46:41.000 Oh my god, crazy.

01:46:42.000 So hold on, what sign are you?

01:46:43.000 A Leo?

01:46:43.000 I'm a Leo.

01:46:44.000 You're such a Leo as well.

01:46:45.000 Oh, you're such a Leo.

01:46:46.000 No, I'm not.

01:46:46.000 I'm a Virgo.

01:46:47.000 Fuck you. 1.00

01:46:48.000 You are, though. 1.00

01:46:50.000 Shirley Manson, you're awesome.

01:46:52.000 I really, really enjoyed talking to you.

01:46:54.000 Thank you for having me.

01:46:54.000 Thank you.

01:46:54.000 Thank you for being on.

01:46:55.000 All right, fuckers. 1.00

01:46:56.000 We'll be back soon. 1.00

01:46:57.000 Bye.

01:46:58.000 Oh, I'm sweaty in here.

01:47:00.000 My ears are out of here.

The Joe Rogan Experience - May 02, 2017

Joe Rogan Experience #953 - Shirley Manson

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