The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #148 with Bernard Hopkins

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!

00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.

00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

00:00:12.000 We're here.

00:00:12.000 What's up?

00:00:13.000 Pleasure to meet you, man.

00:00:14.000 I've been a gigantic fan of yours for a long time, so it's a real pleasure.

00:00:19.000 That's what I've been hearing, Joe, but, you know, I've also become a fan in the last couple of years before you came to Austin.

00:00:28.000 I go out of L.A. a lot to do boxing, promoting in West Coast, East Coast with Golden Boy Promotion.

00:00:34.000 I'm part of Oscar De La Hoya, so good to be met and good to meet you also.

00:00:39.000 What is it like transitioning from being a fighter to being a promoter?

00:00:43.000 Because Oscar, yourself, Floyd, only a few fighters have managed to do that successfully like you have.

00:00:50.000 Well, first of all, it's not just walking into it.

00:00:55.000 I sort of got groomed in my career based on, I'll say, the last eight, nine years of my 30-year career.

00:01:06.000 I took on the ownership and responsibility of making the last decisions.

00:01:11.000 I hired people that can give me the right information.

00:01:15.000 Not a lot, but just a few people that can give me the right information about this particular fight.

00:01:21.000 For instance, Kelly Pavlik in Atlantic City, Oscar De La Hoya fight in 06, 06, 07. And I groomed myself for this moment.

00:01:35.000 To be able to be independent, but also learn the business.

00:01:39.000 And let me tell you, it is difficult.

00:01:41.000 It's difficult not doing a job per se, but it's difficult in the business.

00:01:48.000 In the structure of the business of boxing, the small family in boxing, whether they're here or there in a promotional setting or commissioner setting, they would definitely try to discourage you by any means necessary.

00:02:05.000 Yeah, I can imagine, especially yourself, because you had had so many issues with promoters over the years, and you were so vocal about it, unlike a lot of other fighters.

00:02:16.000 Yeah, I mean, because I was, one, forced to do it, to fight back.

00:02:23.000 And then second, I looked at it as I really didn't have a choice, even though I could have laid down or got down to their demands.

00:02:35.000 But I understood one thing.

00:02:39.000 My instincts of survival, but also not just being...

00:02:44.000 In the game, I wanted different for myself.

00:02:48.000 And I had one bad experience.

00:02:49.000 Well, I had a couple of bad experiences, but I had the first bad experience I had early in my career.

00:02:56.000 And I wound up getting out of that deal with Butch Lewis.

00:03:00.000 And I can mention names, not because he's deceased, but I can mention it because I wound up being actually sued based on keeping me in check.

00:03:10.000 But I fired back and I wound up, you know, counter-punching and got out of that situation and spoke boldly about it and moved on to try to wake others up.

00:03:23.000 Not actually preach, but just bring it up about my situation.

00:03:26.000 If anybody recognized and experienced it, any fighter or anybody else, they can grab some knowledge.

00:03:31.000 But that was the start of it.

00:03:33.000 That was the start of it.

00:03:35.000 My first professional fight, not first, but my first championship fight was Roy Jones Jr. And that fight was a parody fight.

00:03:44.000 It was a split, 1.4 split between me and Roy Jones.

00:03:48.000 I have the contract.

00:03:49.000 I kept all the stuff even to the day.

00:03:50.000 I can go back and reflect and bring not only contact for what I'm speaking about, but I kept it because I paid for it.

00:03:59.000 It's called litigation.

00:04:00.000 And so...

00:04:02.000 I said to myself, how can it be a number?

00:04:07.000 750, 725 split, parity, the word parity.

00:04:14.000 And I get 80,000 when it's all said and done.

00:04:17.000 Now, I remind you, I'm fresh out of the penitentiary.

00:04:20.000 88, 89, 90, 90. I rebooted my career after, you know, losing my first fight.

00:04:27.000 Didn't box for 15 months.

00:04:29.000 So now we in the, what, early 90s.

00:04:32.000 And I rebooted myself back into reaching a goal that I eventually reached.

00:04:39.000 But the business part...

00:04:43.000 It had me thinking in between those moments of clamming the ladder of being a contender that this is more than just going to the ring and winning and not winning.

00:04:58.000 This was something that I had to learn quick on the job learning.

00:05:03.000 There's a lot of shenanigans in boxing.

00:05:07.000 Yes.

00:05:07.000 I mean, you got a sport that's unregulated, right?

00:05:10.000 Whether that means anything to people or not.

00:05:13.000 But there's no checks and balances there.

00:05:15.000 The people that set the rules, break the rules.

00:05:18.000 I'm going to say that again.

00:05:20.000 The people that set the rules, break the rules.

00:05:24.000 I mean, you know, where can you...

00:05:28.000 Is that that thing that they said was going to go out?

00:05:30.000 Yeah, I figured it out.

00:05:31.000 This is happening, yeah.

00:05:34.000 Just make sure it's not a real problem.

00:05:36.000 Okay.

00:05:36.000 National test.

00:05:37.000 I just got mine today.

00:05:38.000 This is a national test.

00:05:40.000 See, I was thinking maybe getting that with somebody, you know, through boxing, they know it's ready to come out.

00:05:46.000 You know, these people, man, you know, you gotta understand that it's possible.

00:05:51.000 But the possibility of getting ousted, blackballed, and boxing such a small circle of separate entities that will come together to oust that enemy, to oust that...

00:06:10.000 And so, you understand the bullseye...

00:06:14.000 It's still on my back for certain reasons, because now, even though I'm in a different position of not only power, but for my career, what I stood up for is not like the past.

00:06:30.000 So, as a promoter today, an Oscar De La Hoya go to more promotion, the day we signed, the day we became partners, We don't become those who we despise.

00:06:47.000 Now that's deep.

00:06:48.000 That was 20-something years ago.

00:06:50.000 You can find that anywhere out there in social media.

00:06:53.000 It's there.

00:06:54.000 We suited up and booted with contracts after signing.

00:07:00.000 And that was one of the statements that I continue to bring up 20-plus years later and be consistent about it.

00:07:10.000 Now, that doesn't mean that every fighter is going to agree to the business side that you have to represent as a promoter.

00:07:18.000 But one thing for sure, if your talent brings what you're asking and your representation, whether they name themselves, which boxing does, manager, consultant, advisor.

00:07:35.000 I mean, I just named three entities.

00:07:41.000 They're sucking the blood out of the ignorance of the lack of knowledge of especially young ones and the ones that don't want to learn.

00:07:50.000 I'm not a savior.

00:07:52.000 I'm not running and trying to save anyone.

00:07:55.000 But trying to understand my job and my role before my lights go out is that I love the sweet science.

00:08:06.000 But I also understand that Boxing gave me a way not to be rotten in the penitentiary or in the graveyard.

00:08:16.000 That's what boxing did for me.

00:08:18.000 It gave me that opportunity that I had to walk the walk eventually.

00:08:22.000 Absolutely.

00:08:23.000 That I had to make sure that even though things can happen where you come up short in a square circle, that I don't give up.

00:08:32.000 And so having that mentality and being consistent over the years, And still be able to talk in 2023. Still know my name, my social security, all the numbers that matters, all the things that attach to me is a blessing.

00:08:45.000 I'm not bragging.

00:08:47.000 I'm different.

00:08:49.000 Let them argue.

00:08:51.000 Let them on the side.

00:08:52.000 Whoever.

00:08:53.000 Fans or no fans.

00:08:57.000 One thing for sure, most will agree that I'm different.

00:09:00.000 Whatever that difference is, I take it.

00:09:04.000 But I'm different.

00:09:05.000 And keeping the course of being that, as time moves on.

00:09:10.000 Fast approaching 59, January 15th, 1965. I'm knocking on the door, 60. You look fucking great.

00:09:18.000 Well, ducking helps.

00:09:22.000 Come on, man.

00:09:24.000 Come on, one thing for sure.

00:09:26.000 If you duck more than you take.

00:09:28.000 Yeah.

00:09:30.000 You can be able to express yourself as time goes on, and you'll be able to be something worthy to your family.

00:09:37.000 Now, you're going to be worthy if you're there, but that's not fun to me.

00:09:42.000 I want to be there like I am now.

00:09:44.000 I got a 12-year-old son.

00:09:46.000 You know, Bernard, right?

00:09:48.000 Three generations with him, right?

00:09:50.000 So I want to be there, and he's playing football, right?

00:09:53.000 Don't like boxing, right?

00:09:55.000 Threw gloves at him, I guess, when he was eight months.

00:09:57.000 He threw him back, right?

00:09:58.000 So, my whole thing is like, not save or not preach as I've been accused of a couple of times, but it's just in me, the spirit's in me, the Muhammad Ali spirit is in me.

00:10:14.000 January 17th, January 15th, I know that I'm here for more than a purpose, that I took that road, I came through that road, some things in my life that I... I felt that it was needed, that I had to do, I had to be that, because that was that mindset.

00:10:30.000 Once, again, not changing course on the conversation, once I understood my value, and boy, you can appreciate this, when I understood my value in that penitentiary at 17, when I got certified at 17, 5 to 15, subtract 5 out of 15 in state prison, that leads you to back time.

00:10:54.000 To walk off, call parole.

00:10:59.000 They had a boxing gym there.

00:11:01.000 And all of the Pennsylvania prisons, which was 30 plus, had boxing in their penitentiary.

00:11:12.000 That was part of baseball, flag football, handball on the wall.

00:11:19.000 That spark.

00:11:22.000 That flame came back from a little short amateur career I had.

00:11:26.000 That's how I built my reputation up in my neighborhood.

00:11:29.000 I always fought, fighting in the streets, fighting in school.

00:11:34.000 How old were you when you first boxed as an amateur?

00:11:36.000 When did you first walk into the gym?

00:11:37.000 Nine years old.

00:11:38.000 My uncle took me to the gym, my mother's brother, because my father had a brother that boxed too.

00:11:42.000 And they all was my weight.

00:11:44.000 Well, I was all their weight when I started, middle weight.

00:11:48.000 My uncle's on both sides of the tree, mother and father.

00:11:52.000 Boxed that middleweight in the 60s, 70s, early 70s.

00:11:56.000 So it's in my DNA. Can't help myself.

00:11:59.000 It's who I am and who I became.

00:12:03.000 But I got back to it when I went to the penitentiary.

00:12:06.000 So when you were an amateur, were you taking it seriously or were you...

00:12:12.000 No, I wasn't taking it seriously.

00:12:13.000 You weren't fully committed.

00:12:14.000 I was eating everything everybody else was eating at that age in the neighborhood and what was there.

00:12:19.000 I mean, I remember fighting and getting a trophy about this big.

00:12:22.000 It's always the same stance, right?

00:12:24.000 Plastic trophy.

00:12:25.000 But to me, that was like a gold medal.

00:12:27.000 They got the trophy showing everybody in the neighborhood and the elementary school I was at.

00:12:34.000 And, you know, they take you to, you know, I don't want to get no free commercials, but they take you to this, you know, still around, you know, to get a hamburger, french fries, and you probably know, you know, to take you there.

00:12:44.000 We're happy.

00:12:45.000 That was it.

00:12:46.000 Amateur program.

00:12:47.000 But it was like the PAL, right?

00:12:50.000 I don't know if they have it here in Texas, the PAL called the Police Athletic League.

00:12:53.000 It's big over there in the East Coast.

00:12:55.000 So the PAL lead was structured to get young people.

00:13:01.000 Black urban men that's on the corner or young boys, right, to go to Powell.

00:13:08.000 Anybody can go there, but mostly it was in our neighborhood.

00:13:12.000 They would, you know, come to the gym and, you know, you can sign up for amateur boxing.

00:13:17.000 You could be an Olympic gold medal.

00:13:18.000 You can do this and do that.

00:13:20.000 But I had, you know, family members.

00:13:23.000 I was in my DNA. Once I was taken to the gym by Artie McLeod, We call him Artie, but it was Arthur McLeod.

00:13:30.000 Called him Moose.

00:13:31.000 My mother's brother.

00:13:33.000 Middleweight.

00:13:33.000 Badass.

00:13:34.000 Look him up.

00:13:35.000 Artie McLeod.

00:13:36.000 The streets took his career.

00:13:40.000 Obviously, based on what?

00:13:42.000 Lifestyle.

00:13:44.000 The streets of Philadelphia, the blue-collar town where Philadelphia can make you or break you when it comes to making it out of there, right?

00:13:55.000 Not only sports, any entertainer, any success that you might have on your back in the community.

00:14:02.000 And again, Philly, there's love there.

00:14:04.000 But a lot of us don't make it out even though the talent was better than mine.

00:14:12.000 Strong, strong, right?

00:14:13.000 The trap of the streets.

00:14:14.000 The trap of the streets, but also what you're used to doing and what you're used to thinking.

00:14:23.000 Listen, until I traveled through boxing, tell you how much boxing did for me, to travel around the world multiple times, Meet multiple people from every class of life that I believe,

00:14:40.000 you know, I'm pretty sure it's people I haven't met, but from here to there to status or power or influencers, I say, man, the world ain't just no filly.

00:14:59.000 The world is not just Raymond Rosen projects.

00:15:05.000 So I start understanding now, like, even sitting there watching at that time how the fork and the spoon and the butter knife is on one side of the table.

00:15:19.000 And I'm looking, look, this guy's taking a nap and putting it on the floor.

00:15:23.000 I think he's putting it on his lap.

00:15:25.000 I mean, this might sound ignorant, but you got to understand from that mindset of what I'm saying, not understand my experience, because some haven't.

00:15:36.000 But I started paying attention.

00:15:39.000 That was the key.

00:15:41.000 Just like in the boxing business, I started paying attention.

00:15:46.000 And then once I got to the point where I had a voice, means I had to do something in boxing.

00:15:55.000 Nobody cares if you consider nobody.

00:15:59.000 10-1 because I lost my first fight.

00:16:02.000 Atlantic City to Clinton Mitchell.

00:16:05.000 I was out for nine months out of penitentiary.

00:16:08.000 I wanted to get right back in the ring before I grabbed a kilo of cocaine like everybody was selling in the 80s and 90s.

00:16:16.000 That was the plan?

00:16:17.000 I had a choice to do one or the other.

00:16:22.000 Right.

00:16:23.000 Everybody, listen, anybody on the West Coast and East Coast know the 80 and the 90 era.

00:16:30.000 Right?

00:16:30.000 The 80 and 90 era in urban city was get down and lay down.

00:16:39.000 Are you in or are you out?

00:16:41.000 That's all across the board.

00:16:44.000 And growing up, being the guy named Heads, yeah, my nickname.

00:16:50.000 That was Heads?

00:16:50.000 Straight named Heads, yeah.

00:16:56.000 When you see me coming, I had the same energy.

00:16:59.000 I had the same discipline.

00:17:02.000 And this is going to sound weird.

00:17:04.000 The same discipline that people might think they know me over the years, fans, non-fans, and people that do know me, is the same discipline I had in a negative way.

00:17:15.000 That really, again, not trying to paint my...

00:17:17.000 The work is there.

00:17:18.000 I'm pretty sure if they go in the archives of any...

00:17:21.000 Police district or whatever or archives in City Hall down in Philadelphia or Harrisburg.

00:17:28.000 Them records never go away.

00:17:30.000 They think they might have to bring them up one day but I won't let it happen.

00:17:34.000 Not on my watch.

00:17:35.000 So I took all that experience and it seemed like a long time ago but it felt like to me I lived three different times.

00:17:52.000 On this earth and I ain't even bring up the two stabbings that I wear to scar today from the back and one underneath my left chest.

00:18:06.000 So there's a lot of times never been shot that I could have done something be the lamb or be the wolf and I recognize the be the wolf is much better than being a lamb.

00:18:23.000 That the person I took stuff from, that I went up and looked through on why they looking at me, could have had a gun and blew my brains out.

00:18:34.000 Which I've lost a brother a year under me, Michael.

00:18:40.000 I'm 58, he's been 57. His birthday was January 29th, 1966. Mine was January 15th, 1965. Got an older sister.

00:18:51.000 She's only a year older.

00:18:52.000 February 14th, 1964. My mother been in labor for three years in a row.

00:18:59.000 Wow.

00:19:00.000 With six kids.

00:19:02.000 When it's all said and done, my mother raised six kids.

00:19:05.000 But I was raised, I was like raising three, maybe four.

00:19:08.000 If you ask her if she was here, God rest her soul.

00:19:12.000 But she got a chance, and thank you for letting me ramble on, she got a chance to see in person my talents that she always knew I had since I was an angry bad boy in elementary school, because she'd been up there a lot of times, teachers meetings.

00:19:36.000 She got a chance to see me beat Felix Trinidad 9-11 in New York City.

00:19:42.000 Just had an anniversary months ago.

00:19:45.000 Well, last month.

00:19:47.000 She got a chance to fly in the air for the first time.

00:19:54.000 Whether it's commercial or jet, both.

00:19:57.000 She got a chance to visit places that she didn't have any dream of doing it.

00:20:07.000 I gave that tour.

00:20:10.000 And she passed in 50, I believe 59, 58. I lost maybe off a year, but my mother passed before 60. She was young.

00:20:18.000 Here I feel great knocking on 59. She was already gone.

00:20:26.000 But every time...

00:20:31.000 I've done something.

00:20:33.000 And she know I did it.

00:20:36.000 Never even asked me.

00:20:37.000 She showed up.

00:20:41.000 Whether it's a visit.

00:20:43.000 Whether it's $10 on the books.

00:20:47.000 She never gave up on me.

00:20:50.000 She never turned her back.

00:20:52.000 Even though.

00:20:53.000 She always threatened me with the.

00:20:58.000 This is the last time.

00:21:00.000 Hmm.

00:21:02.000 Now, she might have waited two or three days, but eventually she came and did all she can, whether it's taking a second or third mortgage out on the house to bail me out with a $300 or $400 or $1,000 bail bondsman.

00:21:18.000 Come on, y'all.

00:21:20.000 Like, until it's over, what I mean by that is, The breath in your body, then it's never really over.

00:21:37.000 Now, if you let somebody tell you it's over, if you let them plan your funeral based on what you can and cannot do, I'm sitting here in front of Joe Rogan.

00:21:50.000 How many people told you it's nuts to do what came...

00:21:56.000 Yeah, there's a question.

00:21:58.000 What came to fruition in your life?

00:22:00.000 I'm pretty sure you had a lot of smart so-called, and some of them were.

00:22:06.000 They didn't see what I seen.

00:22:08.000 They didn't see what you seen.

00:22:10.000 Question on both sides.

00:22:12.000 I know I'm a testimony to it.

00:22:15.000 And I'm pretty sure, because I've done some research, I'll always like to know who I'm talking to once I've got some knowledge of who I am and who I need to be Affiliated with business or non-business.

00:22:29.000 It just gives me an upper hand to know what I'm facing and what I'm not facing.

00:22:36.000 I'm always in a fight mode, but I don't have to fight.

00:22:40.000 It's here, and then it's the physical.

00:22:45.000 The art of war, Sun Tzu.

00:22:50.000 I challenge everybody to get one of those teaching books and go through it every now and then.

00:22:57.000 The Art of War has always been a guideline for me, when I say always, most of my adult career.

00:23:07.000 I say from 23 to now.

00:23:12.000 I started pro at 25. When I told you how people try to write your own destiny where you're going to the grave or to success because you said it, I gave him the middle finger.

00:23:23.000 I gave him the middle finger not physically, I gave him the middle finger in action, in deeds, which holds a lot more weight.

00:23:32.000 It does a lot more weight.

00:23:33.000 And I wanted to let them know that.

00:23:35.000 So when you got to prison at 17?

00:23:38.000 Yes, certification.

00:23:39.000 Did you get serious about boxing then?

00:23:42.000 No.

00:23:42.000 Was that like your outlet?

00:23:43.000 No.

00:23:44.000 The first year I ran around the jail, when I mean run around a jail, I was basically an inmate.

00:23:52.000 Why 4145?

00:23:54.000 Basically, I knew people.

00:23:56.000 I didn't know certain people.

00:23:57.000 And you literally, you team up with the people you know in your neighborhood.

00:24:04.000 That's important.

00:24:05.000 That's important to have what?

00:24:07.000 Backup.

00:24:09.000 Right?

00:24:09.000 You must have that.

00:24:11.000 Right?

00:24:13.000 The agents was there.

00:24:15.000 The Caucasians was there.

00:24:17.000 The Muslims was there.

00:24:18.000 The Christians was there.

00:24:19.000 Everybody had sets.

00:24:21.000 So you need that.

00:24:23.000 Now, once you get there, somebody know you.

00:24:29.000 And somebody will know why you're there and what you're there for.

00:24:34.000 Now, you could say you're there for one thing, but the same people that checks you in, basically with the guard watching over them, know your whole case.

00:24:45.000 They basically do the work.

00:24:47.000 The inmates, 9 out of 10, they lifers, who's been there and they moved up in the ranks because of their clean record in the institution, and they'll look at, oh, he said he got a robbery, but he got a rape.

00:25:01.000 He's saying he got a homicide, but he got an auto theft.

00:25:05.000 Hmm.

00:25:06.000 So the credibility, crazy as might sound, the credibility of what you're there for, It lays not all said and done, but it lays a foundation how they approach you.

00:25:24.000 And, yo, listen.

00:25:27.000 Even the county, before you get state time, you got to be in the county, you go back and forth to court, and over 12 months, it's considered state time.

00:25:39.000 One and a half to five, state time.

00:25:42.000 That's that half that got you to state time.

00:25:48.000 It's a different ballgame at Greater Four State Penitentiary.

00:25:53.000 Maximum security.

00:25:57.000 It's a different ballgame.

00:26:00.000 Knowing somebody, whether they know your uncles or my dad, Bernard Sr., or anybody else in the neighborhood, I know your fathers.

00:26:09.000 I remember we used to fight in the projects.

00:26:14.000 Okay, is this guy really legit?

00:26:17.000 You got to find that out whenever.

00:26:19.000 You ain't going to find out there.

00:26:21.000 You got to find out later.

00:26:25.000 And it could be legit, but these are the things that I've learned.

00:26:31.000 And most of them, the stuff that I know that in time it will help me once I got out and once I've reached a certain level in life.

00:26:44.000 That I need to know certain things and I got the schooling in that situation, penitentiary.

00:26:51.000 Because to me, I'm in a penitentiary and society just don't have a wall.

00:26:58.000 I don't have a wall here.

00:27:01.000 When I'm pointing here, I mean mentally.

00:27:04.000 And I don't have a wall physically where I can see it.

00:27:07.000 But I know for a fact that being in this position That I've been in for 28 years.

00:27:15.000 This rounded off three decades based on the sweet science in the ring.

00:27:20.000 When I started and when I retired.

00:27:23.000 Six, seven years ago.

00:27:29.000 As I witness and as I experience.

00:27:35.000 That first half of that first part of life that I just said I felt like I lived three or two or three lives.

00:27:42.000 It's helping me now.

00:27:46.000 Because when you're in a position where people think they can go on the internet and think they can find out how much you're worth, what you're not worth, then your CPA, your certified accountant, know who you're worth, know who you are.

00:28:01.000 That's your DNA when it comes to business.

00:28:06.000 Especially if you got a good one, the right one.

00:28:11.000 So you get approached with all kinds of agendas.

00:28:16.000 And also you get the ones...

00:28:18.000 Sometimes you get the spirit to come in people that come thinking that, you know...

00:28:24.000 No matter how you sound and all that, I'm not trying to sound smart.

00:28:28.000 How you sound smart, what that mean?

00:28:30.000 Certain words you say?

00:28:31.000 Tell me the definition of it.

00:28:35.000 Boxing always will have a stigma...

00:28:40.000 And I hate to say it, but it's true 90% of it.

00:28:46.000 We trust, as fighters, too many people that say that they are who they are, and we give them a pass that they are what they say they are.

00:29:00.000 Because of that experience that I just broke down on you just now, It prepared me without having any knowledge at will until I recognized it.

00:29:12.000 Being awareness.

00:29:14.000 Having awareness.

00:29:18.000 If I didn't have that experience that I just spoke about, 20 plus minutes, I would be swallowed up like most of them.

00:29:31.000 I hear the Tyson stories even when he was on the show.

00:29:34.000 Been around him.

00:29:35.000 Fought on the undercard many times in Vegas at the MGM. No, Mandalay Bay.

00:29:41.000 MGM wasn't even there when I fought on the undercard.

00:29:46.000 And I hear a lot of other names.

00:29:50.000 And I say to myself, they say game recognize game.

00:29:56.000 How you gonna con an ex-convict?

00:30:01.000 Don't you know I had to talk to get off the block?

00:30:04.000 I am not going to where I say I'm going, I just want to get off the block.

00:30:08.000 And if I get off the block based on that guard letting me off because I say I'm going somewhere that I'm not really going, you build up a skill setting on how to deal with people that you need to deal with.

00:30:21.000 The danger coming is when you do it to everybody.

00:30:26.000 The benefits of it when you're in front of somebody that you know is full of shit, that you know is looking right at you lying, and you're saying to yourself, how long is this conversation going to take to be over?

00:30:44.000 But being in a position that I've put myself through, nobody gave me anything.

00:30:51.000 I have to have patience even though I don't have to or I don't want to at that moment.

00:31:02.000 Because society of what you've done, it becomes such great entertainment and historic.

00:31:14.000 You get the stamp that you're a celebrity and you're bigger than God.

00:31:21.000 I'm a believer.

00:31:23.000 I'm a believer.

00:31:25.000 I don't shy.

00:31:26.000 I don't push it on the body.

00:31:27.000 I don't bring it up just to bring it up in the conversation to say, would I agree or disagree?

00:31:34.000 So I believe in checks and balances.

00:31:37.000 I believe in all these things that deal with my situation to balance out things that need to be balanced.

00:31:51.000 That keeps me on point to know who I am A lot of things I won't forget.

00:31:57.000 And a lot of things I will.

00:32:00.000 On purpose.

00:32:02.000 On purpose.

00:32:04.000 So, I realize one thing, y'all.

00:32:07.000 I realize this.

00:32:11.000 All I do now is being written or going to be written down as I go.

00:32:21.000 But when it's over, That story no longer be written by me.

00:32:28.000 It be written by somebody else.

00:32:30.000 I don't want that.

00:32:32.000 No!

00:32:34.000 You know what I want?

00:32:36.000 Why I have this time?

00:32:40.000 To write it myself.

00:32:42.000 And have that awareness.

00:32:44.000 To keep me not just in check, but mindful that every step I make, every accomplishment, every failure, every obstacle, every challenge, whatever it is, I must stand ten toes down on it at all times.

00:33:07.000 That shows, again, the consistency of Bernard Hopkins, Jr., Because anybody that understands and know or follow or know anything about me, because most people don't have the patience to do research.

00:33:25.000 They want somebody to tell them who Joe Rogan is.

00:33:29.000 They want somebody to tell them most people who Bernard Hopkins is.

00:33:34.000 I learned not to be in that world of thinking.

00:33:38.000 I learned to do my due diligence before I stepped up to my opponent Our adversary...

00:33:48.000 Or any other person that breathed the same air of life that I breathe.

00:33:52.000 So did you learn this focus and determination and discipline?

00:33:58.000 Did you learn this because of prison?

00:34:00.000 Because you wanted to make sure this never happened to you again?

00:34:02.000 Absolutely.

00:34:03.000 So that experience when you were 17, being locked up, that was, even though it was a horrible situation, pivotal to your growth.

00:34:13.000 What do you mean a horrible situation?

00:34:15.000 Being in prison.

00:34:16.000 No, it wasn't.

00:34:17.000 It wasn't horrible?

00:34:17.000 No.

00:34:18.000 How so?

00:34:19.000 Because most of my friends I said was there.

00:34:22.000 Second, I wanted to get out.

00:34:24.000 Obviously, when I got caught, you know, when you get caught by the police or you get locked up, obviously you're trying to do everything to get out.

00:34:31.000 Whether you give an alias name, whether you try to...

00:34:34.000 I didn't do it.

00:34:36.000 But when I got there and I seen that it wasn't like it's promoted on TV, per se.

00:34:46.000 Case in point.

00:34:49.000 I had more friends there than I had in the neighborhood that's locked up.

00:34:54.000 Of course, they glad to see you because you're locked up with them.

00:34:58.000 The mindset, Joe, when you're there, you're not, you know, you're not thinking, you're thinking, you got people that's for good reasons looking out for you.

00:35:09.000 Which means, I got this.

00:35:11.000 You need this.

00:35:12.000 You got this.

00:35:12.000 You got a stinger.

00:35:14.000 You can heat some hot water up and eat some soup.

00:35:16.000 Whatever.

00:35:16.000 You learn to survive in that situation.

00:35:20.000 Because I don't believe, and I said this in multiple interviews.

00:35:25.000 Multiple interviews.

00:35:26.000 I did a lot of expressing myself over the 28 years of boxing.

00:35:30.000 Trust me.

00:35:31.000 It's not hard to find my voice.

00:35:35.000 I got to understand That without that experience, I wouldn't be here having this conversation with you.

00:35:46.000 Or anyone else before you.

00:35:50.000 Let alone the Hall of Fame.

00:35:53.000 Let alone today the oldest athlete.

00:35:58.000 Yeah, got Brady a couple years.

00:36:01.000 That won a major world title.

00:36:04.000 Surpassing George Foreman.

00:36:08.000 Yeah, you were world-class into your 50s.

00:36:11.000 There's only a couple guys like that.

00:36:13.000 I was defending my title with 25, 30-year-olds in my 40s!

00:36:17.000 Yep.

00:36:18.000 Well, I remember when they wrote you off before the Kelly Pavlik fight.

00:36:21.000 I wrote a blog on my website about that fight because I was so blown away.

00:36:26.000 Because I remember leading into that fight, everybody wrote you off first of all in the Felix Trinidad fight.

00:36:32.000 They thought you were too old then.

00:36:34.000 35. 35. Correct.

00:36:36.000 They thought you were over the hill.

00:36:38.000 Felix Trinidad is this young, incredible fighter.

00:36:42.000 There's so much emotions involved when you went to Puerto Rico and threw the flag on the ground and everybody's chasing you.

00:36:47.000 I mean, you sold the shit out of that fight.

00:36:49.000 It was wild.

00:36:49.000 But it wasn't a sell.

00:36:50.000 I know, but it did.

00:36:51.000 But it just happened.

00:36:51.000 It did.

00:36:52.000 Yeah, it did.

00:36:53.000 But it sold like crazy.

00:36:54.000 And they were writing you off.

00:36:56.000 And you put on a master class.

00:36:59.000 I remember that fight.

00:37:01.000 I remember that fight like it was yesterday.

00:37:03.000 Just had the anniversary last month.

00:37:05.000 Woo!

00:37:06.000 Because I was always a big fan.

00:37:08.000 And I was a big fan also of the fact that you were standing up to the promoters.

00:37:12.000 Because I remember the people, like the HBO Boxing people, they didn't like it.

00:37:15.000 They didn't like when you talked about all that stuff.

00:37:17.000 They thought you were wasting their time.

00:37:18.000 But you had an important message.

00:37:21.000 And so people were kind of looking to write you off.

00:37:25.000 So by the time you fought Felix Trinidad, it was one of those crossroads fights where many people thought Felix Trinidad is going to become an all-time great.

00:37:32.000 Bernard Hopkins is 35. You know, this would be a good win for Felix Trinidad.

00:37:37.000 And you just fucking boxed masterfully.

00:37:40.000 It was a beautiful fight.

00:37:42.000 It was a beautiful fight because it showed all the things I love about your style.

00:37:47.000 First of all, the intelligence, the defensive responsibility.

00:37:51.000 You never put yourself in bad positions.

00:37:53.000 Never.

00:37:53.000 Your defense was always tight as Fort Knox.

00:37:57.000 And you start picking them apart.

00:37:58.000 And I remember watching going, oh shit!

00:38:02.000 Oh shit!

00:38:03.000 It was just one of those fights where it was just so exciting.

00:38:06.000 It was so, you know, even though I was a fan of yours, and I was a fan of Felix Trinidad as well, it was watching it happen, even when you watch something special.

00:38:15.000 And that's the thing that athletics does for us, and particularly fighting because it's so raw.

00:38:20.000 What it does to us is it shows us the potential that human beings have beyond what we expect.

00:38:27.000 You did that with Felix Trinidad, and you were in your 40s when you fought Kelly, right?

00:38:32.000 Yes.

00:38:33.000 How old were you then?

00:38:33.000 I've done that multiple times in my career.

00:38:35.000 Kelly Pavlik, I'd say 44, 45. Which is another one.

00:38:39.000 That's when I wrote a blog about it.

00:38:40.000 I'm like, do you understand how crazy this is?

00:38:42.000 They predict that I get knocked out on this one.

00:38:44.000 This one, I'm saying that I'm going to do just that.

00:38:46.000 That was after the Jermaine Taylor fight, right?

00:38:48.000 Yes.

00:38:48.000 So people thought, oh my God, this kid.

00:38:51.000 I'm glad you said that.

00:38:52.000 Stop right there.

00:38:53.000 Yes.

00:38:53.000 The two Jermaine Taylor fights.

00:38:56.000 Right?

00:38:56.000 Now, I accept my losses.

00:38:58.000 But those two.

00:39:00.000 Not losing sleep in 2023 over it.

00:39:05.000 But I better regret the lie.

00:39:08.000 What I mean by that is...

00:39:10.000 That Jermaine Teller heist.

00:39:13.000 Luther Bella used to work for HBO. Started Luther Bella Entertainment.

00:39:18.000 So he had Jermaine Teller under the entertainment of Luther Bella.

00:39:22.000 So they wanted to...

00:39:23.000 Use Jermaine Teller to get me out of boxing because I've generated a lot of enemies.

00:39:33.000 They've been my biggest supporters being my enemies.

00:39:36.000 To not fall asleep at the wheel or to underestimate Anybody that comes in front of me, whether they're worthy or not, number one contender, number one, two contender, that's another politics story that sometimes they put people there just because they can put people there.

00:39:56.000 Jermaine Teller fight.

00:39:57.000 Split decision win to Jermaine Teller.

00:40:01.000 The second fight, which I believe was just as close as the first fight.

00:40:05.000 So Jermaine Teller went 24 rounds.

00:40:12.000 With Bernard Hopkins, correct?

00:40:16.000 Lost his mind, haven't been right since.

00:40:19.000 They feed him.

00:40:21.000 They, the powers that be, want the fans to believe the lie, which it was a lot of rumbling about who won that first fight.

00:40:33.000 A split decision, the champion doesn't get the split decision, and not a favor, Bernard B. Jermaine Teller.

00:40:42.000 But three or four days in boxing, it goes away.

00:40:45.000 Who cares?

00:40:49.000 We fight the second fight because as a champion, I could put in a contract, hey, Spence and Crawford.

00:40:55.000 Crawford wants to exercise that, you know, that clause.

00:41:01.000 Correct.

00:41:02.000 So we got that second fight.

00:41:05.000 Decision loss.

00:41:06.000 They think it's going to make it a little better, not a split decision, a decision.

00:41:09.000 Okay.

00:41:10.000 They wanted me to pack up and run!

00:41:13.000 Basically, get the fuck out of here.

00:41:15.000 We got you.

00:41:18.000 They fed him to Kelly Pavlik because they wanted the fans.

00:41:23.000 They wanted you at that time, but you're a little smarter.

00:41:26.000 Not patronizing, keeping a 100. They put Kelly Pavlik in there with Jermaine Teller and Kelly Pavlik did what?

00:41:39.000 Knocks him out after avoiding the knockout himself, correct?

00:41:42.000 Yeah, real close to going out.

00:41:45.000 Yeah.

00:41:46.000 So now they said, hey, they want to clean up the mess.

00:41:56.000 Pin around this game, 30-side.

00:41:58.000 Joe, trust me on this one.

00:41:59.000 They want to clean up the mess.

00:42:01.000 They're still getting...

00:42:02.000 They're getting hammered with the fight with me and Jermaine.

00:42:05.000 Now they pin him in with Kelly.

00:42:07.000 Thought he was going to walk him over.

00:42:08.000 Kelly stops him.

00:42:10.000 We're going to now try to make things up on the back end now.

00:42:14.000 We got to still make that thing up with Bernard Hopkins because Tom is not going to bury it because Bernard got a big mouth.

00:42:22.000 And Bernard's going to keep talking.

00:42:25.000 So let's pick Kelly Pavlik.

00:42:27.000 Hold up.

00:42:28.000 Let's pick Kelly Pavlik in there with him.

00:42:31.000 Atlantic City!

00:42:32.000 Joe.

00:42:35.000 He's going to get Bernard.

00:42:37.000 This is the first time.

00:42:38.000 Larry Merchant.

00:42:39.000 I had a lot of fun beating him up on the mic.

00:42:44.000 This is the first time we might just see Bernard.

00:42:47.000 He's going to get knocked out this fight.

00:42:49.000 Because they wanted you to thank the Jermaine Tuller fight.

00:42:52.000 Remember I said earlier they wanted you to believe the lie.

00:42:55.000 They got to promote the lie.

00:42:57.000 And hopefully they look like a genius when it happens.

00:43:01.000 Yeah.

00:43:03.000 One of my best performers, not just in the ring, but one of my best performers or who I am, how I wouldn't let them write my death warrant or my exit warrant or who I am.

00:43:18.000 See, the thing is, they know who I am.

00:43:21.000 Oh, your enemy know who you are.

00:43:23.000 That's why they threatened by that.

00:43:26.000 They seen you coming, Joe, a long time ago.

00:43:30.000 But It's a time that comes and goes when they know they can't stop you.

00:43:39.000 Right now, at 2023, right now, fast approaching 2024. And I'm sitting up there having a conversation, articulating everything I said and know what I'm saying, dates and time.

00:43:52.000 They didn't expect that.

00:43:55.000 They didn't expect that.

00:43:56.000 They expect a voice recorder...

00:43:59.000 With me sitting up here like the movie Bernie, dead but alive, I'm here bigger than just who I became.

00:44:08.000 I'm going to say that again.

00:44:10.000 I'm here.

00:44:11.000 This is when it comes, not overly spiritual, but this is what I believe.

00:44:16.000 I'm here to prove to me, can't speak for anybody else, that the historic chapter...

00:44:32.000 It's the second layer of foundation which is to come that they better be aware of.

00:44:41.000 That they better be aware of.

00:44:43.000 Because now that statement brings me to this conversation that needs to be said.

00:44:51.000 And this is the best platform to spill it out on.

00:44:56.000 The boxing game, the business of boxing...

00:45:01.000 Has to be met with a personality and a discipline, no matter what the wind is blowing, which way it is blowing, that I'm not going to give up.

00:45:15.000 And that's what the threat is.

00:45:17.000 And that's what the fear is.

00:45:19.000 And it's not fear of me personally.

00:45:21.000 It's fear of what I know and what I can do and my consistency to bring the people together Whether the ones that really mean it, the good politicians, the people that's in the game of boxing, some commissioners, not all, to understand that we need checks and balances in this business to at least to have law.

00:45:50.000 There as a structure to honor and go by.

00:45:54.000 And if there's any violation like anything else, you get chastised for it.

00:45:59.000 You gotta pay.

00:46:00.000 You gotta get punished in so many ways to do it.

00:46:04.000 So boxing, like any other sport in America, is the only sport that's not regulated by any entity other than itself.

00:46:14.000 Hmm.

00:46:17.000 You know, Joe, I used to always say to myself back then, there are so many, when they hear this, they're going to be like, oh my God.

00:46:26.000 There are so many non-active lawyers in boxing.

00:46:39.000 There's a lot of lawyers or can be lawyers, right?

00:46:45.000 They went to law school, they got the law license, but they don't practice.

00:46:50.000 But they have knowledge of what they can do and what they can't do.

00:46:53.000 Do you understand what I'm saying?

00:46:55.000 So already, most of us are at a disadvantage, not at an advantage, to know To do's and don'ts.

00:47:10.000 Whether or not you're getting fucked.

00:47:12.000 Yes.

00:47:13.000 Whether or not we're getting fucked.

00:47:15.000 And most of the time you're getting fucked.

00:47:17.000 99.9% you're getting fucked When you were saying that the Roy Jones Jr. fight, there was a 1.4 split and you made 750 or whatever it was.

00:47:28.000 After all that, you only brought home 80?

00:47:31.000 Yeah.

00:47:31.000 How's that possible?

00:47:32.000 I had a contract.

00:47:34.000 Again, this was the ignorance coming.

00:47:36.000 Lack of knowledge.

00:47:37.000 I had a contract with a management team that sold me out with the promoter.

00:47:41.000 And the promoter, again, Butch Lewis, God rest his soul.

00:47:48.000 He somehow...

00:47:52.000 I convinced my managers at that time, Arise in boxing, that he can do better for them in the long term.

00:48:02.000 Fighters come and go.

00:48:04.000 Managers and advisors stay around, whatever name they put themselves under.

00:48:09.000 And so I had a 60-40.

00:48:12.000 Remember, I said ignorance early.

00:48:13.000 I had a 60-40 manager contract.

00:48:17.000 I have it to the day frame in my office.

00:48:20.000 That's pretty crazy.

00:48:21.000 60-40 manager contract.

00:48:24.000 I kept that contract.

00:48:26.000 I framed it.

00:48:27.000 So these things, because it shows how far I evolved.

00:48:31.000 What's a standard contract?

00:48:33.000 What's a fair contract?

00:48:34.000 What you negotiate.

00:48:36.000 What is a good professional get?

00:48:41.000 In boxing?

00:48:42.000 Yeah, like Jermell Charlo for the Canelo Fire.

00:48:45.000 I'll say a manager shouldn't get no more than 15%.

00:48:50.000 At that level of 10% most of the time, but no more than 15% because he might be doing other stuff and he might got investments in you leading up to that moment.

00:49:01.000 Right?

00:49:02.000 You know, leading up to that moment.

00:49:04.000 He had you run out of the Olympics or he had you straight up Fighting at a club fight and you build yourself up to a contender and then you're a championship.

00:49:11.000 Yeah.

00:49:12.000 Right?

00:49:12.000 So I would say no more than 15%.

00:49:15.000 And a lot of feedback and a lot of response is going to be really on that point that I just said when it comes to numbers.

00:49:23.000 No more than 25, 25, 30. You got...

00:49:28.000 Advisors right now, they call themselves advisors, working as a promoter, which means that part of the change of boxing, part of the fight that I know that's going to be a rumble going into the next generations, and we in that Golden Boy promotion.

00:49:47.000 Top ranked, Bob Aram, been around 50 plus years, just as long as Don King.

00:49:52.000 Right?

00:49:53.000 Time is very, very short and limited.

00:49:56.000 Right?

00:49:57.000 Not saying they won't go out of business, but the brand is there.

00:50:01.000 But the energy and the strength, it's a new game now.

00:50:04.000 It's a new world order.

00:50:06.000 Curtis Mayfield.

00:50:08.000 Right?

00:50:08.000 I'm an old school guy.

00:50:09.000 Curtis Mayfield, new world order.

00:50:11.000 Right?

00:50:11.000 It's happening now in certain situations and it's going to happen in boxing.

00:50:14.000 Everything has been flipped and turned around.

00:50:16.000 The survival is surviving and the dead dies.

00:50:24.000 Boxing Have no guidelines on what you can do, how much you can take other than the commissions, not all, but most of them, is governing the rules that they set.

00:50:45.000 And that's where the problem comes.

00:50:49.000 The manager says, Job is to manage and look out by enemies necessary for the fighter.

00:50:57.000 The promoter promotes the event Get sponsors.

00:51:05.000 Get the money.

00:51:06.000 Get the support.

00:51:08.000 And he and the manager go to the table and they have a conversation about what is there.

00:51:18.000 The minimum.

00:51:20.000 Canelo, $30 million, $25 million the other night.

00:51:24.000 That was negotiated by a consultant...

00:51:33.000 That's really a promoter hiding in the closet.

00:51:37.000 Hmm.

00:51:43.000 Boxing is a great sport.

00:51:46.000 The business red light district.

00:51:50.000 And any red light district that I know of, It's not a good place to be if you're going to be preaching at church on Sunday.

00:52:03.000 Well, boxing has always been controlled by crime figures, mob, crooked lawyers.

00:52:10.000 But that was then.

00:52:11.000 Now, it's a different time and way to do it.

00:52:18.000 Those days with the envelope underneath the table?

00:52:21.000 Nah.

00:52:23.000 That Ben stop.

00:52:25.000 The way it's being done now is based on favoritism, who they want in, who they want out.

00:52:41.000 When it comes to who they can exploit, who they can make more money with, And who they can and cannot influence.

00:52:54.000 How deep does it go?

00:52:56.000 Like, how deep does it go?

00:52:57.000 As far as, like, judges.

00:52:58.000 Because there's been some fights where, like, Timothy Bradley versus Manny Pacquiao.

00:53:05.000 Where the decision gets announced and everybody just goes, What?

00:53:11.000 There's a few of those decisions where people go, what is the line?

00:53:15.000 What's the betting line?

00:53:17.000 Who's financially tied to this?

00:53:19.000 Who's the promotion that's tied to this?

00:53:20.000 I get your recent one.

00:53:21.000 Lumachenko.

00:53:22.000 Yes, Devin Haney.

00:53:25.000 Like, the answer to that question is who they want to win and move to the next level.

00:53:35.000 Because that's where they can make the most money.

00:53:38.000 And that's where they have the most control.

00:53:39.000 Hello.

00:53:40.000 Yeah.

00:53:41.000 So this is something that you have to be a Harvard graduate to understand.

00:53:47.000 Right.

00:53:48.000 Like, this is like in your face.

00:53:50.000 It's like, so what?

00:53:51.000 Like, I'm taking it to the point that deep.

00:53:54.000 Like, I know y'all see, you know, this is boxing.

00:53:59.000 No.

00:54:02.000 What do you mean this is boxing?

00:54:04.000 You will hear reporters that have been around just as long as the promoters, right?

00:54:08.000 Because they can get a free meal at the press conference, or they can get somewhere, they got their little perks, right?

00:54:13.000 They can get a little free condenser to wear around your neck, and they'll sell their soul.

00:54:18.000 So, when you're in that environment that's so tight, when it comes to the community of it, they can smell your fart.

00:54:30.000 You like that?

00:54:31.000 It's crazy.

00:54:32.000 I mean, it's that serious.

00:54:36.000 And I'm saying to, you know, my small circle, it's like, yo, you telling me that this judge, along with the other two judges, right, it's three ringside, it's three judges, right?

00:54:55.000 Six eyes, six eyeballs, right?

00:54:59.000 That's watching this fight.

00:55:02.000 Nobody's drooling from the mouth, right?

00:55:05.000 Nobody got an oxygen tank, right?

00:55:07.000 Judging.

00:55:08.000 So, we assume that the commission of that state, Vegas, here, there, whatever, LA, whatever, They assign these judges.

00:55:21.000 They screen these judges.

00:55:23.000 Did anybody do a background check and see if anybody's mortgage is late or car payments are late?

00:55:28.000 Eight, nine months due?

00:55:30.000 We need to understand the qualifications of being a judge because lives of careers is at stake at that high level.

00:55:46.000 Where not only are you taking something from that particular fighter, but his family is wrapped up in that too.

00:55:55.000 They don't look at that.

00:55:57.000 Right.

00:55:58.000 They don't care.

00:55:59.000 And so, when it happens every now and then, and not every 10, 15, 20 years, whether it makes it right or not, this is a consistency.

00:56:10.000 And also, from the previous decades...

00:56:15.000 In moments in history, boxing still has that question.

00:56:22.000 Is boxing rigged before it goes down?

00:56:26.000 Is boxing controlled by the underworld or the new underworld or the world of influence or the world of power or the world who they want to make more money off of?

00:56:39.000 It's about who they can make more money off of.

00:56:41.000 And look, I'm not going to say I understand, because if I say I understand, then I feel that I am not going to do nothing about it, then I feel I'm part of the problem.

00:56:55.000 Because a lot of guys and a lot of people in the boxing business know what I'm talking is genuine and is straight up the truth, but they would never do what I'm doing right now.

00:57:07.000 They just accept it.

00:57:09.000 Or they just deal with it.

00:57:11.000 They don't talk out against it.

00:57:12.000 They keep their mouths shut.

00:57:14.000 And not all, but there's some have things to lose.

00:57:22.000 Payday.

00:57:24.000 Payday.

00:57:25.000 So, or positions of where they at or what they do.

00:57:33.000 They don't want to lose whatever it is big or small to you to them.

00:57:39.000 Is there God or next to it?

00:57:41.000 That's how deep that is.

00:57:43.000 I witnessed it.

00:57:44.000 I'm there on the front row.

00:57:47.000 And I'm not having no nonsense.

00:57:49.000 And the thing of not having that is one thing of saying it.

00:57:57.000 Joe, I don't need a job from them to pay my bills.

00:58:02.000 I don't need them to do something for me based on a threat.

00:58:10.000 Or based of silence you.

00:58:16.000 See, that's the power I was talking about early.

00:58:20.000 Not the other power.

00:58:22.000 Some could be great, some can be not great.

00:58:24.000 But the power of do for self.

00:58:27.000 And the power of being consistent.

00:58:31.000 And got there in spite of the blackballing.

00:58:35.000 The never giving up as you witnessed with the Tito fight.

00:58:39.000 That was the beginning of their demise who I became today in 2023. And he still can talk and speak.

00:58:48.000 And he haven't forgotten nothing.

00:58:51.000 Only if he chose to.

00:58:54.000 That's when I say power.

00:58:56.000 Yeah.

00:58:57.000 But that's your discipline.

00:58:59.000 That's your drive.

00:59:00.000 And that's so extraordinary that you were able to maintain that.

00:59:04.000 At, you know, the Kelly Pavlik fight again, you're 44 in that fight?

00:59:09.000 44-45.

00:59:10.000 That's crazy.

00:59:11.000 To compete at a world-class level against one of the top guys in the sport, who's a knockout artist, at 44-45 and just put on a clinic.

00:59:21.000 Put on a clinic.

00:59:22.000 That moment there was around the time I became the alien.

00:59:27.000 When you boxed forward for three decades, you got three brands.

00:59:30.000 Yeah, you were the executioner.

00:59:31.000 You had to change it to the alien.

00:59:32.000 Listen, I understood the time I hung around, and I had to recreate myself.

00:59:37.000 I had to bring something to the press conference.

00:59:40.000 Joe, I know you want to ask the question, but I'm going to let you answer it.

00:59:43.000 But I had to come up with something.

00:59:45.000 Why?

00:59:46.000 Why, Joe?

00:59:47.000 It's because what?

00:59:49.000 Every reporter that's been covering me They got tired of covering me eventually.

00:59:55.000 Not based on what I've done and didn't do.

00:59:57.000 I'm making history.

00:59:58.000 They know it.

00:59:59.000 Every time I fight, they remind me every fight I win.

01:00:02.000 You just did this.

01:00:03.000 You just did that.

01:00:04.000 Ray Robertson couldn't do it and you did it.

01:00:08.000 The Tarver fight.

01:00:09.000 Jumping up two-way classes.

01:00:11.000 Now, T'Challa, right?

01:00:13.000 You see what he tried to make history.

01:00:15.000 Went up to jump two-way classes and fight Canelo.

01:00:19.000 I set records that's still there.

01:00:22.000 To be chased, that's a blessing for me to sit back and have fun and have conversation.

01:00:28.000 But I understood, again, every moment, every historic moment, every time that I can stay in the game, not because I needed the money.

01:00:45.000 They was paying me very well to leave.

01:00:51.000 They was paying me very well to leave because of what?

01:00:56.000 I wanted to make sure that I established a historic record that it would take decades to break them.

01:01:04.000 And that's what's happening today or an attempt to happen.

01:01:08.000 And so that, to me, gave me more drive to say, ah, I'm going to stay around one more.

01:01:17.000 I'm going to chase this dream.

01:01:19.000 I'm going to chase that gold.

01:01:20.000 I'm going to make this history because Ray Robinson didn't do it.

01:01:23.000 I'm going to jump up two weight classes and fight Tarver.

01:01:25.000 How old were you when you fought Tarver?

01:01:28.000 58, 48, 49. You know how crazy that is?

01:01:31.000 Yeah.

01:01:32.000 In Atlantic City.

01:01:35.000 How were you able to do that?

01:01:37.000 What separates you physically from all those fighters that deteriorated young in their career?

01:01:43.000 Is it your defense?

01:01:44.000 Is it just technique?

01:01:46.000 It was a combination as a recipe.

01:01:49.000 It was all above.

01:01:51.000 Break them down to you.

01:01:52.000 I'm going to break them down to you.

01:01:54.000 It was two of those that you mentioned.

01:01:57.000 Discipline, of course.

01:01:59.000 You know...

01:02:02.000 Protecting yourself at all times in that ring, even though you're still going to get hit, but you want to hit more than you get hit, obviously.

01:02:09.000 The wear and tear.

01:02:11.000 Lifestyle.

01:02:12.000 Joe!

01:02:13.000 The lifestyle outside the ring is impeccable.

01:02:19.000 You got to understand the lifestyle and the discipline.

01:02:24.000 Go back to D-Block.

01:02:28.000 Let's go back to D-Block.

01:02:31.000 Let's go back to running that yard.

01:02:33.000 Yard out, yard in.

01:02:35.000 Let's go back to winning championships in the grade of four penitentiary.

01:02:39.000 Before I came home, I was a championship in prison.

01:02:42.000 You go to my Instagram, I know they're going to go now.

01:02:45.000 I put up a sparring session with all the inmates outside the ropes watching me spar in the same penitentiary I got paroled from.

01:02:56.000 I have more video that I kept just for my own safe keep not knowing a goal today.

01:03:03.000 What kept me in the business of boxing physically was not just my talent.

01:03:11.000 I'm not downplaying it by no means.

01:03:15.000 Roy Jones was talented in me.

01:03:18.000 Oscar De La Hoya.

01:03:19.000 Trinidad was talented than Bernard Hopkins.

01:03:22.000 Oh, Bernard, come on now.

01:03:23.000 You had to...

01:03:23.000 No, I ain't talking...

01:03:25.000 I'm talking about as far as all-around skills.

01:03:26.000 But one thing I did have...

01:03:30.000 I had the room and ability to do what?

01:03:33.000 To reinvent myself.

01:03:35.000 To make sure that I don't be one way all the time.

01:03:39.000 I learned styles that Roy possessed.

01:03:42.000 I learned styles that Trinidad possessed.

01:03:46.000 I learned the street Philadelphia mentality of the history of Philadelphia.

01:03:50.000 Come and wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

01:03:53.000 I learned all that stuff and wrapped it up in a recipe and now the main course was served.

01:04:00.000 I learned so many things through time and experience.

01:04:05.000 Up or down.

01:04:06.000 Bad or good.

01:04:08.000 Like or dislike.

01:04:10.000 I learned all these things and put them together in a proper space.

01:04:13.000 And I said, guess what?

01:04:14.000 If I'm in there with a guy that's strong the first couple of rounds, I'm going to know it without showing him I'm being leery of him.

01:04:21.000 And once I identify that, it takes about two or three rounds.

01:04:26.000 Why you think they said he's a slow starter?

01:04:30.000 He's boring the first four or five fights.

01:04:32.000 Joe, you watch me.

01:04:33.000 You heard him say all the commentators.

01:04:35.000 They snoring around the fourth round.

01:04:37.000 They snoring.

01:04:38.000 But then I understand what I have to do.

01:04:42.000 Turn up the gas.

01:04:44.000 Not only, yep, turn up the gas, but disarm them.

01:04:49.000 Disarmamentally, which control, from my perspective, everything you do tomorrow, everything you do the next round, everything you think about doing, if I put doubt in your mind and come to the ring prepared physically to take you to that task of whether you believe what you say.

01:05:08.000 That's D-block!

01:05:10.000 And then you take that experience, which I've had, not...

01:05:15.000 Bragging and boasting about it, but it's my history.

01:05:18.000 It's part of my story.

01:05:19.000 Without that, I'm not here.

01:05:23.000 One of the enjoyable things I would love doing before the fight start is when a referee, Bernard, come out, Jermaine Tello, and then we're in the middle of the ring.

01:05:37.000 And he's giving you last rights, right?

01:05:40.000 Last instructions of the rules he gave you in the dressing room.

01:05:43.000 I call it the last rights because you don't have to be alive when you leave out of there.

01:05:50.000 When that bell ring, your life could be in jeopardy.

01:05:55.000 So I wanted to say last rights.

01:05:58.000 So when they give us the last rights, you heard the rules, you heard this, it's too low, it's too high if you hit there.

01:06:03.000 And I'm looking at my opponent like me and you looking at each other.

01:06:08.000 He looking at me, I'm looking through him.

01:06:10.000 I said it earlier.

01:06:13.000 And whatever he see, he won't speak, but he can't run now.

01:06:17.000 And as his bottom lips shiver, as we stare at each other for at least two seconds before he gives us the instructions to go to the corner and then the bell ring, first round is on.

01:06:33.000 It ain't how fast and how good I start, it's how I finish.

01:06:40.000 That's how I beat my opponents in and out of the ring.

01:06:49.000 They frontrunners.

01:06:52.000 They run in 880s and they're like, oh, I got a great time.

01:07:00.000 I'm like, okay.

01:07:04.000 We're not done though.

01:07:08.000 That's the patience.

01:07:11.000 That is knowing who you are and understanding that in doing that, you might have to taste some defeat.

01:07:22.000 But you always hear the sound bite, especially in boxing.

01:07:25.000 They love to use words because other people say it.

01:07:28.000 Dare to be great.

01:07:31.000 Their actions don't speak the words.

01:07:34.000 They come out of their mouth most of the time.

01:07:37.000 And that's what separates the do's and the don'ts.

01:07:42.000 The dare to be great.

01:07:43.000 Correct.

01:07:44.000 And the belief in yourself at 44, 45 years old to still be not just world class, but one of the best in the world.

01:07:54.000 Thank you.

01:07:54.000 That was just extraordinary that you were able to keep that level of skill.

01:08:00.000 I just want to talk to you about your lifestyle and your training and what was it about your preparation, the way you lived, that gave you this incredibly long career?

01:08:13.000 My mother and father Bernard Sr. and Shirley Hopkins, my mother, they lived at a different way of, at that time, the way they lived.

01:08:27.000 I come up, I told you again, you know, a big family, four sisters, and the rest boys.

01:08:35.000 I'm the second oldest.

01:08:37.000 And My mother and father was dead before 60. Not because of an accident.

01:08:45.000 Not because of some violent crime or anything like that.

01:08:49.000 Lifestyle.

01:08:50.000 I grew up around a lot of stuff.

01:08:53.000 I've seen a lot of stuff.

01:08:56.000 I used to watch my father take syringes and hide them up at the woodwork of the front of the door up top.

01:09:02.000 And I used to climb up through the chair and get it and hand it to my mom.

01:09:05.000 And she said, where do you get that from?

01:09:06.000 And I used to say it and I realized I was starting something.

01:09:11.000 I had to be about maybe six, maybe seven.

01:09:15.000 And I realized I was starting something so I no longer used to...

01:09:21.000 See him put it up there or go up there and get it.

01:09:25.000 So it's the lifestyle.

01:09:27.000 I've seen a lot of lifestyle that I knew.

01:09:32.000 And the history, too, of Philadelphia.

01:09:34.000 Any little success you get, you think you're world champion.

01:09:37.000 No, you're a regional champion.

01:09:39.000 You're a Pennsylvania champion.

01:09:40.000 A lot of guys actually wasn't disciplined to take it to the next level.

01:09:44.000 They became stars in their own neighborhood.

01:09:47.000 They became stars in their own city.

01:09:49.000 I wanted to be bigger than that.

01:09:52.000 And knowing it and saying it is one thing.

01:09:57.000 But just as I speak now, as that conviction that I'll continue to walk that walk and talk the talk, that drove me to be able to never give up and never waver from what I believe.

01:10:15.000 So that there helped me stay away from the things that is right in front of your face most of the time.

01:10:24.000 When you win, They have after parties with Bernard, with Champ.

01:10:30.000 He'll pop up upstairs.

01:10:31.000 He's getting in a hot tub.

01:10:34.000 I go right to my room.

01:10:36.000 I wasn't a monk, but I go right to my room because 90% of people that's at that party, maybe half of them was rooting against me.

01:10:45.000 And then second...

01:10:48.000 They either smoking, drinking, snorting, or anything else.

01:10:53.000 I wasn't about that life.

01:10:55.000 I wasn't about that when I was a hoodlum in the streets.

01:10:58.000 I was about having things that I felt that my parents didn't have enough to give us that life that we just seen right three blocks from where we lived.

01:11:10.000 And sometimes, especially in California, you can make two turns and you're in somewhere where you'd be like, well, hold up, who hit the lottery?

01:11:19.000 So I wanted that life in a different way and got a chance to now have it and some through the travels and the time that I've been on this earth with those two life experiences that I look at, three lives that I lived, just the third one, that any of those times could have been over.

01:11:49.000 That kept me disciplined in between fights.

01:11:55.000 The years that I got, gotta have some credit, gotta give credit to that thinking and that experience of seeing my mother and father die before 60 because of lifestyle.

01:12:06.000 My father had shot his liver, shot his liver out of 57. I feel the best.

01:12:14.000 You look great.

01:12:14.000 I know I feel great.

01:12:15.000 I know I look great.

01:12:18.000 And it was already gone.

01:12:20.000 I reflect every now and then about that when I see pictures by getting certain things together about my life story.

01:12:28.000 I'm looking and reading.

01:12:29.000 I'm looking and grabbing things that I kept that's given to me by siblings.

01:12:34.000 We all grown now.

01:12:37.000 All my siblings, except for my brother because he got killed.

01:12:42.000 The year I went to prison in 84, my mother lost two sons, speaking of that.

01:12:49.000 Michael Derrick Hopkins, I told you January 29th, he'd have been 57, 1966. The year 84, I remember it was the beginning of 84 because the Sixers' last championship was in 1983, if you're a basketball fan.

01:13:12.000 84, I was booked.

01:13:15.000 84, my brother got killed.

01:13:18.000 Shirley Mae Hopkins lost two sons in 84. Talking about trauma.

01:13:30.000 That was a key, key, key push and experience that I had to do something to make her proud.

01:13:49.000 To make her proud once I get out.

01:13:51.000 Still got years to do.

01:13:52.000 How many years do you want to do it?

01:13:54.000 Five.

01:13:55.000 Five out of fifteen.

01:13:57.000 So track five out of fifteen.

01:13:59.000 The way the Pennsylvania Parole Board works, if you get out, on your minimum is five.

01:14:06.000 You can do the fifteen.

01:14:07.000 Get into a stabbing.

01:14:09.000 Get write-ups.

01:14:10.000 Do something in there that can be a crime too.

01:14:16.000 The five is the minimum.

01:14:17.000 The 15th is the max.

01:14:20.000 So I had to walk a straight line amongst chaos.

01:14:27.000 No confusion.

01:14:29.000 Everybody, 90% of people there, they know why they're there.

01:14:34.000 Fuck what they say.

01:14:37.000 There's nobody there.

01:14:46.000 That moment, After that first year of establishing myself, filling out the environment of who you deal with, who you stay away from,

01:15:07.000 who to snitch, what guard, what CO is good, what CO is not, Most of the CO's live in the same neighborhood you grew up at.

01:15:20.000 It was the brother of your uncle.

01:15:22.000 Friend.

01:15:25.000 Who never had a felony, so he got to fill an application, he got a job, man, he's the CO. I know your dad.

01:15:31.000 Okay, thanks.

01:15:33.000 Hey, CO, can I, you know, get an extra commissary?

01:15:37.000 Go ahead.

01:15:39.000 So you're not really protected by nobody because anybody can sell you out or do a favor.

01:15:45.000 Mmm.

01:15:49.000 What I'm trying to understand is, just physically, I understand that you didn't party, I understand that you were very disciplined, but how were you physically able to compete at that level, deep into your 40s?

01:16:02.000 Because of, again, lifestyle, talent...

01:16:04.000 But everybody else falls apart.

01:16:06.000 Because everybody else is doing what everybody else has been doing.

01:16:09.000 What were you doing different physically?

01:16:12.000 Physically, I was always, even to the day, I pay attention to what I put in my body is who I am, not what I actually look like.

01:16:22.000 And I understood that most people that I seen in my time in boxing, Florida's disciplined the same way, don't drink, don't smoke, and be sitting right there in the club and everybody doing everything else.

01:16:38.000 You heard that before.

01:16:39.000 It's all over.

01:16:40.000 You got those type people like that.

01:16:42.000 But genetics plays...

01:16:44.000 My grandmother lived in 99. But then again, do I really take all the eggs and put it in that basket?

01:16:52.000 Because my father and mother died before 60. So...

01:16:57.000 I would say the lifestyle.

01:16:58.000 I would say the mindset or the teachings are both.

01:17:03.000 Hit, not get hit.

01:17:05.000 You know, read books a lot.

01:17:07.000 Do something to exercise your brain.

01:17:08.000 Take care of your physical body.

01:17:10.000 The penitentiary.

01:17:13.000 The penitentiary taught me more going there once I got there to understand what I wanted to do.

01:17:20.000 I wasn't just lifting weights in a weight yard and be swole up.

01:17:25.000 I run a bunch of men for five years.

01:17:27.000 I went and understood that, A, after a year went by, they got a boxing program.

01:17:33.000 I wanted to get off the block to go to another block, and the guard, CO, said, where you going, Y41-45?

01:17:39.000 Hey, I'm going to the gym, but I'm trying to go on A block to hang out before count to go back on my block.

01:17:46.000 If I don't do it, if I don't get over there before count, I get a write-up.

01:17:50.000 So I was forced to go down to the gym, And seeing people sparring, and I said, I want to be a part of that.

01:17:57.000 And I got my ass beating lessened, and I didn't like it, and I've never been afraid to go in the gym again.

01:18:09.000 30 years later, I said I would never go in a ring or any situation ill-repaired or unrepaired.

01:18:22.000 I always go in there prepared.

01:18:25.000 That lesson that I said to you then and I say to you now, being in that institution, having that experience, going in that gym for the first time and say after a year went by, and only by accident that I went down that gym because I was headed to another block as I said earlier.

01:18:50.000 And then get down there, Jim, because boxing was in the penitentiaries in that era.

01:18:56.000 We had boxing there, attached to the AAU, which is the same thing they have outside.

01:19:03.000 They used to bring young fighters in there to fight us, the amateurs, have shows for the inmates.

01:19:09.000 You buy a ticket at the commissary, you go to the fights that Friday.

01:19:15.000 And inmates watch you, root for you.

01:19:20.000 I didn't like how I felt.

01:19:23.000 I wasn't prepared.

01:19:24.000 They didn't beat me because I wasn't better.

01:19:29.000 I got beat because I didn't run.

01:19:34.000 I got beat because of the ego.

01:19:37.000 I got beat because, as they say the word hater, that I go down there and say, you want to get in there with him?

01:19:43.000 Yeah, come on.

01:19:43.000 I used to box when I was in the streets.

01:19:45.000 You know, that's the common talk.

01:19:47.000 I should do this when I was in the street.

01:19:49.000 Okay.

01:19:52.000 But those same old head trainers, that double life or one life sentence or two life sentence, they spoke about me on Behind the Glory, Brian Gumbel.

01:20:04.000 Look it up.

01:20:05.000 It's out there.

01:20:07.000 They spoke about me when I visited that same prison in my early professional career.

01:20:13.000 Guess what?

01:20:14.000 Doing what?

01:20:15.000 Sparring for my Atlantic City preliminary fights when I was building my record to get to where I became a champion.

01:20:24.000 I became the USBA champion, which is a sister of the IBF World Championship belt.

01:20:34.000 I left that institution Anyone would have ran as far as they could.

01:20:43.000 They would have ran so far from that place and never want to see it again.

01:20:50.000 But after six or seven months of coming from a first professional loss with Clinton Mitchell in Atlantic City, look it up.

01:21:02.000 I took off 89 and 90. The streets was grabbing me.

01:21:09.000 I still had seven and a half years parole, do the math, nine years.

01:21:16.000 I rebooted my first fight, I believe was in 91, 90 and 91. But that crucial moment, that year and a half, if you look up my record, you'll see Clint Mitchell, 89, inactive.

01:21:35.000 89 inactive, 90 inactive, 91. What was happening in 16 months?

01:21:44.000 I made a decision, meeting an old guy named Bowie Fisher.

01:21:50.000 He won championships.

01:21:57.000 He should be in the Hall of Fame because of me.

01:21:59.000 I'm already in there.

01:22:01.000 I'm the only fighter he ever had.

01:22:03.000 Very few trainers go in the Hall of Fame with one Hall of Famer or fighter.

01:22:08.000 The fighter gets in, but the trainer might not.

01:22:10.000 And I'm not saying it's bad or good.

01:22:12.000 I'm just saying that's how it goes.

01:22:16.000 He made a...

01:22:17.000 and I made a...

01:22:18.000 a bet.

01:22:21.000 You being a...

01:22:22.000 this is out there.

01:22:23.000 You being a gym...

01:22:26.000 Tomorrow, and the next day, and every day that we're in the gym, I will be here.

01:22:32.000 He heard young fighters come through.

01:22:34.000 He heard guys come through before.

01:22:36.000 Ah, can you train me?

01:22:37.000 I'm going to be here tomorrow.

01:22:40.000 He might come tomorrow, but they don't come to be a champion every day that the gym is open.

01:22:52.000 And we had a bet without even saying it's a bet.

01:22:55.000 He asked me to come and he would be there.

01:22:59.000 If I come, he said he would be there.

01:23:02.000 And it was sort of like...

01:23:04.000 And to the point we stopped even thinking about it.

01:23:08.000 We just repeated it to the reporters and everybody that talked to us.

01:23:11.000 That's how we met.

01:23:12.000 How long after your first professional loss do you hook up with Bully Fisher?

01:23:20.000 81, 91, 92. So that's 16 months.

01:23:24.000 That's when you hook up with him.

01:23:26.000 And how long do you spend training with him before you have your next professional fight?

01:23:30.000 All the way up to the Trinidad fight.

01:23:37.000 So during that 16 months off, were you just training?

01:23:42.000 Were you just improving?

01:23:43.000 Yeah, but the training was fighting.

01:23:47.000 You had mandatories.

01:23:50.000 I had two fights, maybe three a year until you establish yourself.

01:23:54.000 Normally two a year once you get at that level of, you know, competition.

01:24:00.000 But yeah, I stayed in the gym.

01:24:03.000 You heard the saying, gym rat?

01:24:05.000 Mm-hmm.

01:24:07.000 I was a rat in that gym.

01:24:09.000 I stayed in the gym.

01:24:11.000 And one thing else that I pass on to the Golden Boy Fighters today, because they come to me, they ask me, of course, why wouldn't they, right?

01:24:25.000 History normally repeats itself.

01:24:31.000 Watch old fights.

01:24:35.000 The old fights they're watching is our era.

01:24:39.000 I say, not only that, go to the next era.

01:24:43.000 Go as far as back that you need to go to understand that what you think you're doing has been done already, but the beauty of going back and getting that experience and attitude, the land of time that you got, the land, you have land, you can build extension to your house, the land you have in your age and the time you now are developing,

01:25:04.000 take knowledge from the cradle to the grave and take those recipes, put them together from the past and And you add it to the foundation that you already have, which is you, your style.

01:25:17.000 It will be hard to adjust to a guy, to adjust to beat a guy that has more than one weapon.

01:25:25.000 And I don't mean their hands.

01:25:29.000 I'm talking about in their arsenal.

01:25:32.000 In their arsenal.

01:25:33.000 It's hard to beat a guy like that.

01:25:36.000 Joe Frazier, great fighter.

01:25:39.000 Hall of Famer.

01:25:43.000 But never boxed like Ali.

01:25:46.000 He came forward even though it was to his disadvantage.

01:25:55.000 You're in New York City at 12 noon driving but you don't have reverse.

01:25:59.000 You're going to get jammed up.

01:26:03.000 You're anywhere in New York Times Square down there and you came back up You're going to have a problem.

01:26:10.000 I guarantee you, take that concept into a fight.

01:26:15.000 You know that you got to back up, or at least duck some of those, but you're still conditioned to go forward because you've been successful all the way up to now.

01:26:24.000 I never wanted that element of surprise.

01:26:27.000 So I learned how to box going forward, sideways, from Philly!

01:26:32.000 I know how to go forward.

01:26:35.000 But now I'll show you the boxing style.

01:26:38.000 So I gave my opponents fits on trying to find a strategy that I'm actually going to stick with myself that they can beat me on.

01:26:50.000 And again, it was successful.

01:26:52.000 Very few, but some were successful.

01:26:54.000 And some got help.

01:26:57.000 But I have no...

01:27:00.000 I have no reserved apologizing in anything that happened in my career that I've done.

01:27:07.000 And I say that at that moment, even though you didn't ask but you brought it up, the title, Trinidad.

01:27:15.000 I've been to San Juan maybe two or three times.

01:27:19.000 Do I know for sure when I went there and ate food, did somebody spit in the kitchen in my food?

01:27:25.000 I don't know that, but I can tell you the love That I got.

01:27:31.000 The response that I got.

01:27:33.000 And it's not the same generation.

01:27:35.000 But it's always an OG. Hanging around.

01:27:41.000 Cigars.

01:27:43.000 Panama hat.

01:27:44.000 Come right out.

01:27:45.000 Here I'm in San Juan and I got the generations all in between surrounding me.

01:27:57.000 Saying...

01:28:00.000 You was a great champion.

01:28:02.000 Sign gloves.

01:28:02.000 Sign my autograph.

01:28:03.000 Come on.

01:28:06.000 You really mean that, Papa?

01:28:08.000 You really mean you threw the flag down?

01:28:10.000 You don't like Puerto Rico?

01:28:11.000 I said, what are you talking about?

01:28:12.000 We got a little San Juan in Philadelphia.

01:28:14.000 Every city got a little San Juan.

01:28:16.000 I said, but at that moment, I wasn't getting respected.

01:28:23.000 It's a dying king promotion.

01:28:27.000 I had to sleep Business-wise, to get the opportunity with Don for two fights.

01:28:36.000 So I had a two-fight deal.

01:28:40.000 The tournament.

01:28:43.000 And I'm the oldest one in the tournament.

01:28:45.000 I'm the grandfather in the tournament that should be in the nursing home based on their...

01:28:51.000 Well, based on most fighters of your era when they got to that age.

01:28:56.000 Correct.

01:28:56.000 But I understand.

01:28:57.000 Right.

01:28:58.000 How they thinking.

01:28:59.000 Right.

01:29:00.000 But the difference is I'm different.

01:29:02.000 But I gotta prove it.

01:29:04.000 So now, the promotion starts.

01:29:09.000 We're in New York, HBO, blah, blah, blah.

01:29:13.000 I say, hold up.

01:29:17.000 T.O. Trinidad...

01:29:20.000 Has multiple followers.

01:29:22.000 He has a multi-million dollar contract with TV. I'm the renegade.

01:29:26.000 Out of the penitentiary, every time the commentators bring my name up, he did five years for this.

01:29:32.000 So I understand the Robin Hood and understand the bad guy.

01:29:35.000 So you got the good guy and the bad guy.

01:29:37.000 That's what sells.

01:29:38.000 I get it.

01:29:39.000 But I ain't had to surrender to it.

01:29:42.000 I knew what their agenda was.

01:29:44.000 Now let me show mine.

01:29:46.000 In New York City, I said, listen.

01:29:51.000 This is the first four-city press conference.

01:29:56.000 I have 11 defenses.

01:29:58.000 I stopped at 21, 22 defenses.

01:30:04.000 I had 11 at this time.

01:30:06.000 I said, look, I'm the champion.

01:30:08.000 Tito's coming up the weight to win my title.

01:30:10.000 Don King presented me a deal with my advisor, representator, For a two-fight deal.

01:30:26.000 To be in this historic, since marvelous Marvin Hagler, undisputed tournament for the Sugar Ray Robinson Trophy.

01:30:35.000 He gonna pass that up.

01:30:38.000 Because this takes me to stardom.

01:30:42.000 So I signed on.

01:30:45.000 Press conference starts.

01:30:47.000 New York.

01:30:50.000 You want me to play second?

01:30:52.000 Tito is more known.

01:30:53.000 Tito just beat Oscar De La Hoya by split decision.

01:30:57.000 Controversial or not, it's a big decision.

01:30:59.000 I'm letting everyone know that HBO, Carrie Davis, Ross Greenberg, the suits at HBO at that time, Mark Taffet.

01:31:18.000 I said...

01:31:23.000 We're going to Philadelphia from New York, then Miami, and then San Juan.

01:31:29.000 Promotional tour.

01:31:32.000 I anticipate the bullshit, thinking I'm going to play second because Tito has much fan base in me, and the Latin market is huge, which, okay, I know that, but still, I'm not surrendering.

01:31:49.000 You're still the champion.

01:31:51.000 And I'm Bernard Hopkins.

01:31:54.000 If y'all don't respect me, when we go to this next city, because I threw the flag down in New York City.

01:32:05.000 There's a park right next door, across the street from HBO Buildings in Manhattan.

01:32:12.000 Can't mention the name right now.

01:32:14.000 I can, but I don't remember the name.

01:32:15.000 But it's there.

01:32:17.000 And we had the press conference there.

01:32:21.000 The flag went down to New York first.

01:32:24.000 They quieted it up real quick because they didn't want it to spread like it already did.

01:32:31.000 But it was already out through some reporters that was there.

01:32:34.000 That was the first stop.

01:32:35.000 New York City.

01:32:38.000 And they didn't respect me.

01:32:41.000 And I said to them, if we're going to do these next cities...

01:32:47.000 And y'all don't worry about me.

01:32:48.000 You're not being conscious of this flag going down again.

01:32:55.000 And respect that I have 11 defenses.

01:32:58.000 This is my division.

01:33:00.000 Tito's coming up to my division to make history.

01:33:05.000 You're going to respect me.

01:33:08.000 I'm going to be first and I'm going to be last through this tour that we're going to do.

01:33:16.000 I'm not going to play second behind.

01:33:18.000 Y'all trying to win the middle battle before it starts.

01:33:21.000 I'm not putting them up there like that.

01:33:22.000 Y'all can do it, but you ain't going to do it in front of me.

01:33:25.000 It's going to be a problem.

01:33:26.000 And we can do this press conference.

01:33:27.000 We can go to Philly, and we can go to Miami, and we can go to San Juan.

01:33:33.000 I know it's just like it happened yesterday.

01:33:35.000 I said, but one thing for sure, I'm not going to apologize because that's what they wanted me to do.

01:33:40.000 Where I come from, you don't punch a man or take his money until you say sorry the next day.

01:33:44.000 You don't do that.

01:33:45.000 You take it and you stand on it.

01:33:47.000 And if you see him again, you take it again.

01:33:50.000 I said, I'm not going to apologize.

01:33:52.000 Y'all can wait.

01:33:53.000 We can go.

01:33:54.000 If y'all want to go.

01:33:55.000 If four of my people don't want to go because they got to take care of their dog or they got an appointment at a doctor's that I ain't hear about until that happened, let me know on my side, anybody need to go.

01:34:04.000 You know, cup man, my train, you know, anybody, if anybody will worry about going to The next three cities, they let me know.

01:34:15.000 Oh, okay.

01:34:16.000 I wouldn't apologize.

01:34:18.000 I said, okay.

01:34:19.000 They're going crazy in San Juan.

01:34:21.000 Let me know before I get there.

01:34:22.000 Bernard, you know, just going to have security.

01:34:25.000 Okay, you going to have the Puerto Rican police watching a guy that's threw the flag down in New York?

01:34:32.000 So we get to Philadelphia.

01:34:34.000 The press conference was smooth.

01:34:36.000 We had a peace treaty in New York that nobody would...

01:34:41.000 Nobody would talk about it.

01:34:42.000 We're not going to bring it up, even if the reporters bring it up.

01:34:47.000 Cool, okay.

01:34:48.000 Tito's on the same.

01:34:49.000 Okay, nobody.

01:34:51.000 Everything was fine.

01:34:52.000 Philly, fine.

01:34:54.000 Reporters asked, we skated across it, asked.

01:34:57.000 Miami, fine.

01:34:58.000 Of course people asked.

01:35:01.000 This concentration on the fight, it's going to be good September 29th, you know, 9-11, we all together, rah, rah, rah, you know, against the whole world being churned up.

01:35:10.000 It was the first big event in two weeks after 9-11.

01:35:14.000 My experience was there.

01:35:15.000 Film everything.

01:35:17.000 That's attached to my legacy.

01:35:20.000 We get to Miami.

01:35:23.000 It ain't get heated, but, you know, people got big Latin community down there.

01:35:27.000 It got, you know, kind of feisty, I would say.

01:35:31.000 We get to San Juan.

01:35:37.000 Roberto Coliseum.

01:35:41.000 That year, Satchel Paige.

01:35:43.000 I heard a note about Roberto.

01:35:44.000 You know, the baseball player.

01:35:45.000 Stadium is packed.

01:35:52.000 Pet rally.

01:35:53.000 Tito Trinidad.

01:35:55.000 There's state police.

01:35:57.000 Stone face.

01:35:59.000 Dave, look, just point, go that way.

01:36:02.000 Okay.

01:36:04.000 I know I'm an enemy's land.

01:36:05.000 I'm playing chess, not checkers.

01:36:08.000 And I know how to move my pieces.

01:36:13.000 So I go down.

01:36:14.000 Okay, we got to go that way.

01:36:16.000 We're at the airport, San Juan, all the students.

01:36:19.000 The people that was there working was...

01:36:24.000 They flagged me.

01:36:25.000 They give me a hurricane.

01:36:28.000 So we walking.

01:36:29.000 Everybody going one way.

01:36:31.000 We get to Roberto Coliseum.

01:36:33.000 Motorcade.

01:36:35.000 Press conference starts.

01:36:37.000 Seven, eight minutes.

01:36:39.000 Went right in.

01:36:42.000 Packed.

01:36:44.000 Walk right in.

01:36:45.000 Fan, whatever.

01:36:48.000 So that was the intimidation plur they was trying to do on me.

01:36:52.000 I understood them saying why I'm away from home.

01:36:56.000 I'm outnumbered, correct?

01:36:58.000 They got to call in certain names, you know, as far as the show and HBO got up there and spoke.

01:37:06.000 This is a historic boom, boom, boom.

01:37:08.000 So we got through that.

01:37:09.000 And it's time for the fighters.

01:37:15.000 I got up there, said what I said, did my famous throat slashing, dicks, heads coming off.

01:37:26.000 Then Tito got up there.

01:37:29.000 He said a couple of words and banged down when you threw my flag.

01:37:39.000 He broke the treaty.

01:37:43.000 So now I'm not going into my act.

01:37:46.000 But serious.

01:37:49.000 When you threw my flag in Spanish, they were crazy.

01:37:54.000 They started throwing magazines.

01:37:56.000 Reporters, they taking pictures.

01:37:57.000 They looking at...

01:37:59.000 So it seemed like everybody in their bleachers was coming.

01:38:03.000 We ducking books, magazines.

01:38:08.000 Now it's starting to get a little pushy-pushy.

01:38:15.000 So Don King in the middle.

01:38:19.000 Trinidad got away from the podium.

01:38:24.000 Don, like today, we take the fighter's hands, hey, the big fight's gonna happen.

01:38:30.000 Don waving the flag before he done this hand raising, which he didn't get a chance to do, rather, before he attempted to do it.

01:38:38.000 He's waving the flag, and this is on video, he's waving the flag.

01:38:46.000 Tito broke, he broke the treaty.

01:38:48.000 He's supposed to say nothing, but he home, right?

01:38:51.000 I gotta counter that.

01:38:54.000 I gotta counter that.

01:38:56.000 I gotta do something so risky that it's gonna, I hope, be world news.

01:39:08.000 Don was fighting me not to get, I grabbed the flag from his hand.

01:39:14.000 We tussled three, four minutes, three seconds, excuse me.

01:39:20.000 It literally for a second was quiet.

01:39:25.000 When that flag hit that ground, it is right here.

01:39:33.000 Don telling me to back up.

01:39:35.000 I'm pointing my finger at Tito.

01:39:37.000 I snatched the flag out of Don's hand.

01:39:40.000 His eyes open up.

01:39:41.000 Everything is when the fans from the front was already coming down.

01:39:45.000 That's why my guys, Jolera, was saying, come on, let's go.

01:39:49.000 So they was taking me up to the balcony where I had to jump down in between the bleachers.

01:39:56.000 Like, I had to get down to the dugout, basically.

01:40:01.000 To get free.

01:40:02.000 To get away.

01:40:03.000 Because they was coming up.

01:40:04.000 They was taking me up because they was coming past the reporters.

01:40:08.000 They was coming from...

01:40:10.000 To get me going up.

01:40:13.000 We couldn't do nothing but go up.

01:40:16.000 And the only way to get down was to jump down like the dugout that you go through.

01:40:23.000 And this is after you threw the flag down?

01:40:25.000 Of course.

01:40:26.000 The flag went down.

01:40:27.000 When the flag went down, they were just...

01:40:29.000 Panamonian.

01:40:30.000 They were just coming.

01:40:32.000 And somebody hit me there, whoever the guy was.

01:40:39.000 Nazeem Richardson is behind me with the Kufi.

01:40:43.000 Sharif.

01:40:44.000 All my guys, two of my guys.

01:40:45.000 The rest of the people just hit me on my back.

01:40:51.000 And throwing things at me.

01:40:53.000 So they're just trying to now actually get away from the crowd that's coming up.

01:40:57.000 Where I'm going, I don't know.

01:40:58.000 And I jump down at that opening.

01:41:01.000 And that's when the sheriff or the police said, look, that way.

01:41:06.000 He wasn't helping.

01:41:08.000 So we found a room, locked ourselves in a room, holding the door.

01:41:14.000 Now, we're trying to lock the door, but the door is like a hard move.

01:41:18.000 They're pushing the door.

01:41:19.000 We're holding the door.

01:41:20.000 We've got to hold this door like this.

01:41:23.000 Anybody that remember that moment after they hear this podcast, It rained.

01:41:32.000 Look, we all know how the tropical storms come when you're over there in the islands.

01:41:36.000 It rained so hard around the time that we needed to get out of there and get straight to the airport, which they took as motorcade, cops on both sides, with fans and cars running.

01:41:54.000 Riding on the side and behind us.

01:41:56.000 It was like 95 on the East Coast.

01:41:58.000 It was like I-10 crossing West Coast to the East Coast.

01:42:01.000 They was on our ass going to the airport.

01:42:06.000 That moment, that moment that I got on that airport, got to the airport and got on that plane, that moment in the weeks to come, before September 29th,

01:42:24.000 2001. Tito had to train, from my perspective, and I said this leading up to the fight when I had interviews and mentioned it because the flag was brought up, of course, in the riot that I caused and instigated.

01:42:44.000 Tito had to hit that bag with that thought of hitting me.

01:42:48.000 He had to train and run and He had to be reminded because he always stayed in San Juan and trained.

01:42:56.000 He rarely went to camp if he ever went to camp to train.

01:43:00.000 He stayed in San Juan.

01:43:02.000 He's their hero even to the day.

01:43:04.000 And Tito had to hear something from whether his siblings, cousins, uncles, next door, whoever, wherever he was at for training camp in San Juan, someone was reminding him.

01:43:21.000 The name that they was calling me is Diablo.

01:43:26.000 They was calling me all kinds of stuff and I wore it like a badge of honor because I wanted to send a message and I wanted him to go through those four or five weeks left because of 9-11.

01:43:42.000 They rebooted to the 29th.

01:43:46.000 I wanted him to thank About me every time he's preparing for that fight.

01:43:54.000 Because someone's going to remind him, even if it's a guy that he's getting groceries from.

01:44:02.000 And I wanted him to think about what I did and what he has to do.

01:44:08.000 So now, taking that strategy of Art of War, because I want to fight a guy that's mad at me, not a guy that trained and planned And got a skill set of how to beat me.

01:44:25.000 Give me that angry man every day.

01:44:28.000 I love the angry guy.

01:44:31.000 Because he's going off with emotions and I'm going off with intellect.

01:44:35.000 And boxing.

01:44:37.000 Business the same way.

01:44:39.000 If you can get him mad, you can get him done.

01:44:48.000 The intellect, the strategy.

01:44:51.000 You trying to hit me and knock me out every time.

01:44:55.000 The risk is always if I get hit, I'm done!

01:44:59.000 But I take that because I bank on what?

01:45:02.000 Defense makes a good offense.

01:45:05.000 A defense make a good offense.

01:45:09.000 A good defense is a good offense because of what?

01:45:14.000 You have to earn everything you get when you hit Bernard Hopkins, the executioner, the alien, the B-Hop.

01:45:20.000 Three brands in three decades.

01:45:24.000 Three brands in three decades.

01:45:26.000 I can tell you a story about all these brands.

01:45:29.000 I told you about the Executioner.

01:45:30.000 I told you the alien kept asking questions, reporters, every time I was fighting past 40s, why are you doing this?

01:45:38.000 We know you got your first dollar.

01:45:39.000 We know you live right.

01:45:40.000 We know you're doing this.

01:45:42.000 They got tired of seeing me, not me winning.

01:45:45.000 They got tired of me hanging around, and they started asking questions.

01:45:49.000 I said, because I'm a fucking alien.

01:45:52.000 And I instructed my guy, Sharif.

01:45:56.000 I said, Sharif, go get some Halloween.

01:45:58.000 It's almost like the beginning of September.

01:46:01.000 Get some green mat.

01:46:03.000 I'm telling you, I'm more than something, y'all.

01:46:05.000 Get some green.

01:46:06.000 What would they say?

01:46:07.000 What was your camp saying?

01:46:07.000 They was looking at me like I was crazy.

01:46:09.000 It's the thing I wanted to do.

01:46:10.000 I said, this fucking guy is crazy.

01:46:11.000 What's crazy is your whole career, you'd come in with the executioner's mask on.

01:46:15.000 The executioner got retired.

01:46:17.000 Nah, that was done.

01:46:19.000 Listen.

01:46:20.000 Look at the mask.

01:46:22.000 The mask came upon.

01:46:24.000 The mask.

01:46:25.000 The alien was born because of continue to be asked questions.

01:46:31.000 And boxing.

01:46:33.000 It's the only sport.

01:46:33.000 We see football.

01:46:35.000 I mean...

01:46:37.000 Look, Brady, Brady.

01:46:39.000 And Brady did a hell of a job still.

01:46:41.000 Listen, I know how hard it is to compete and continue to do it.

01:46:44.000 But it wasn't at its hardest for me.

01:46:46.000 Because I knew what I needed to do.

01:46:48.000 And I knew my body wasn't the age that my birth certificate says.

01:46:52.000 My lifestyle was my age.

01:46:54.000 Ooh.

01:46:55.000 Ooh.

01:46:56.000 My lifestyle was my age, not that birth certificate.

01:47:00.000 And if you think that's just talking, then look at me.

01:47:03.000 Look at me now!

01:47:04.000 I'm four pounds over my fighting weight and two of that is water.

01:47:08.000 You gotta give me two for just being water weight.

01:47:12.000 How do you not fight over six years and you're four pounds over 175, your last fight?

01:47:19.000 That's insane!

01:47:21.000 I'm a fucking alien.

01:47:22.000 I'm an alien.

01:47:26.000 How did you learn to eat correctly?

01:47:31.000 What was your diet like?

01:47:34.000 I didn't have a diet.

01:47:36.000 I don't believe in diet.

01:47:37.000 Diet is commercialism.

01:47:39.000 I believe in lifestyle.

01:47:41.000 I believe in lifestyle.

01:47:42.000 Eat to live, not to die.

01:47:44.000 It's in the teachings, which I represent.

01:47:49.000 It's in the teachings.

01:47:50.000 Eat to live, not to die.

01:47:52.000 You are what you eat.

01:47:56.000 If you eat like a pig, then to me, that's who you are.

01:47:59.000 Do you have that right to do that?

01:48:01.000 Absolutely.

01:48:03.000 But if you come to me and you ask me for advice, which I get all the time from people I know and some people I don't know, you expect the people I know should know that my consistency and it's just who I am.

01:48:20.000 I'm not a late nighter.

01:48:23.000 I push myself to get rest early when I'm doing fights in different time zones.

01:48:28.000 As I leave here, I'm headed to Vegas.

01:48:31.000 To do what?

01:48:32.000 A fight.

01:48:33.000 Under Golden Boy promotion.

01:48:36.000 So I know how to take that same...

01:48:40.000 To relate on the questions that you just asked me.

01:48:44.000 I know how to take those moments of rest.

01:48:47.000 I know how to take those moments of being active...

01:48:51.000 I know to take those moments on how to take care of myself like I'm fighting, but I'm not anymore physically.

01:48:58.000 This is a different type of resume for me to do.

01:49:07.000 So I have to go ahead and do what?

01:49:10.000 Keep My mind's straight.

01:49:13.000 Answers and questions.

01:49:14.000 Well, questions is coming from everybody is looking how you answer it to see if they can fill something in that gave them information.

01:49:24.000 You know, I look at some of the politicians and I say sometimes they ask the questions just to give you a lot but nothing.

01:49:33.000 Mm-hmm.

01:49:35.000 Right?

01:49:36.000 Yeah.

01:49:38.000 In boxing, They're a small percentage that legitimately ask you a question because they don't know.

01:49:50.000 And then most of the time, you've got to at least be under the impression that they're trying to connect something that they already know.

01:50:02.000 For instance, hey Bernard, what do you think about Ryan Garcia suing Golden Boy?

01:50:11.000 Oh, Bernard, what do you think about...

01:50:13.000 Oscar is not...

01:50:19.000 telling the truth about something.

01:50:26.000 My head is always on the swivel.

01:50:30.000 On the block.

01:50:32.000 But having your head on the swivel, in this perspective, is not looking, because they see me looking.

01:50:38.000 You know who they are when they know you're not looking, or they think you're not looking, put it that way.

01:50:45.000 That's who they really are.

01:50:48.000 Not when they're in your face most of the time, not when they're in your presence, but when they know that you, or they think that you're not paying attention, that's who they really are.

01:50:56.000 I'm watching them, not even looking at them.

01:51:00.000 D-block.

01:51:01.000 I know what's on my right, right here in this studio.

01:51:04.000 I know what's on my left.

01:51:06.000 Obviously I came in and I scanned it, but right now I know what's to the right and the left, but I don't know what's in backing me.

01:51:15.000 So I constantly, constantly put those messages out there when it's needed because they no longer can say I'm the parent or when they used to say I was boxing to try to justify that I'm speaking the truth.

01:51:36.000 But if they can convince most who listen what they fed and move out on what they fed, whether it's newspaper, TV, I don't even watch TV no more.

01:51:46.000 I'd be living in another country if I did.

01:51:52.000 Then, the advantage is to them, not to you.

01:51:57.000 But once you start doing something that boxing business people don't like, Why you think you've seen those fighters having nervous breakdowns in the ring, crying?

01:52:08.000 Heavyweight contender.

01:52:11.000 Having breakdowns on the side of the ring.

01:52:17.000 Because they're, today, people that talks about Don King.

01:52:24.000 And he all, what I know, he is.

01:52:28.000 I have testimony to that.

01:52:30.000 You ain't got to convince me, but he ain't the only Don King out there, a personality and track record that some might think that there's only one mind and one entity that did an extraordinary job, whether you like it or not.

01:52:56.000 They came from, just think about Don King's history.

01:53:04.000 Here's a guy a few hours from New York, I mean Philadelphia, excuse me, Cleveland, take the system, the law,

01:53:20.000 and broke some, and had that long 50, 40, 40 plus something years of To do with the rules that were set way before him and use it the way he's done for so many years.

01:53:49.000 Oh, Bernard, you sound like you're patronizing.

01:53:50.000 Nah.

01:53:51.000 I'm just telling you, he done something that's normally not done for a period of time.

01:54:04.000 From a culture that looks like me.

01:54:06.000 That's my point.

01:54:09.000 That's extraordinary.

01:54:12.000 Normally it's the mob!

01:54:16.000 From Vegas all the way to Boston, Philadelphia, and every city in the state, I mean state in the United States.

01:54:27.000 To take those Openings and opportunities to have a long, extended decades of a run like that.

01:54:46.000 Now, I know he was in his own 100%.

01:54:52.000 Boss.

01:54:58.000 But you get to the point where you have a run like him so long.

01:55:03.000 You get to pay your way out of paying somebody first to start off.

01:55:08.000 I'm pretty sure the Muhammad Ali suddenly listening.

01:55:13.000 I'm pretty sure the 80s, early 80s, the 70s.

01:55:21.000 I'm pretty sure They had the guys with a suit and tie sitting there.

01:55:28.000 I still think that Sonny Liston could have got up from the right hand from Muhammad Ali.

01:55:34.000 Yeah.

01:55:35.000 It seemed like he was acting.

01:55:38.000 That's Lewiston, Maine, right?

01:55:39.000 Correct.

01:55:40.000 Yeah.

01:55:41.000 That seemed like the fix was in.

01:55:44.000 And you talk about the...

01:55:47.000 The fight with Numanchenko.

01:55:49.000 You're talking about the Haney fight that I'm pretty sure you see the same way I'll see.

01:55:58.000 Yeah.

01:55:59.000 Who won that fight.

01:56:01.000 And other fights, maybe one or two more that was kind of bizarre, right?

01:56:04.000 Yeah.

01:56:05.000 In the last few months.

01:56:06.000 Yeah.

01:56:08.000 And we briefly talked about it and we got on something else which...

01:56:12.000 How me in your mind, I think, works.

01:56:14.000 I've been here for a couple of hours now.

01:56:16.000 I've got to understand how this thing is working out in the conversation of corruption.

01:56:27.000 Period.

01:56:32.000 Period.

01:56:34.000 That need to be brought to the forefront.

01:56:37.000 It need to have a light Flash throwing roaches.

01:56:45.000 And then they'll try to scatter and just gotta crush them before they get to their destination of retreat.

01:56:57.000 This is long about conversation that we got into corruption, but what I wanted to bring it back to was like, you were saying it was your lifestyle, you were saying it was your discipline, but you put in your body what you needed to survive and thrive.

01:57:15.000 Eat to live, not to die.

01:57:16.000 You didn't fuck around, you didn't drink, you didn't smoke, you didn't party, you always got your sleep.

01:57:21.000 Don't eat bad food, don't mess with sugar.

01:57:24.000 I read everything.

01:57:25.000 I read everything.

01:57:26.000 You read books on nutrition.

01:57:27.000 I read books, everything.

01:57:28.000 I read the back of the label of the stuff that I was purchasing.

01:57:32.000 I take my multis.

01:57:34.000 I never got into, I don't even like needles, let alone shots.

01:57:40.000 B12s, I take B12s.

01:57:41.000 I used to get the B12 shots.

01:57:43.000 For energy, you're losing weight, whether it's water weight or not.

01:57:50.000 I got two and a half, three percent body fat.

01:57:53.000 Probably up to three now, right?

01:57:56.000 So the sponge gets to the point where it is what it is.

01:58:01.000 Now you're burning muscle.

01:58:03.000 Bingo.

01:58:04.000 Now you're losing nutrients.

01:58:05.000 You were one of the first fighters that I ever heard that was eating organic.

01:58:09.000 Yes.

01:58:09.000 And I was like, oh.

01:58:11.000 To the day.

01:58:12.000 As an ex-fighter, again, these things make me feel good.

01:58:18.000 And these things, listen, I know how hard I need to work when I need to work.

01:58:22.000 I know when I need to just blow some dust off my body a little bit just to get a little warmed up.

01:58:28.000 So every day I'm not going hard to the day I'm not going hard.

01:58:31.000 I don't hit the bag.

01:58:32.000 I ain't hit the bag since I retired.

01:58:33.000 I ain't been in a boxing gym for what?

01:58:37.000 My stuff is ways to keep the muscle that we lose at a certain age every two years, year and a half, you lose certain percentage of muscle.

01:58:45.000 I'm just trying to keep that debt.

01:58:46.000 I'm gonna look good in my suits.

01:58:49.000 You understand?

01:58:50.000 What do you do now for working out?

01:58:52.000 Well, I do some running twice a week.

01:58:56.000 I do a long distance run, three and a half, four miles, depending on how my crew can hang in or how I feel.

01:59:03.000 But three tops.

01:59:05.000 I do 880s.

01:59:06.000 I do running, blow it out.

01:59:08.000 880s.

01:59:09.000 I used to do that with Mackie Showstone.

01:59:12.000 Shout out to Mackie Showstone from New Orleans.

01:59:15.000 He worked with a couple of greats even to tennis.

01:59:18.000 So Mackie...

01:59:19.000 He taught me a lot.

01:59:20.000 He let my guy video eight weeks of training in New Orleans.

01:59:25.000 He worked with Holyfield, correct?

01:59:27.000 He worked with Bo, Riddick Bo.

01:59:30.000 He worked with Roy Jones Jr. We went up to heavyweight to fight John Ruiz.

01:59:35.000 He worked with Dallas Strawberry, the Hall of Famer baseball player.

01:59:40.000 He was one of the first guys to do a lot of unconventional training.

01:59:43.000 He worked with me, yes.

01:59:44.000 He worked with me to build me up from 160 to 75, two weight classes we talked about.

01:59:51.000 And he's still got to be in his mid-70s now, and great shape.

01:59:57.000 I believe he's still in New Orleans.

01:59:59.000 We made history together.

02:00:00.000 And one thing he did, I had a guy, I don't have a noun, but His job in my camp was to film everything, whether we're having an off day, which we do on Sundays, right?

02:00:13.000 Some Saturdays, if I'm peaking.

02:00:15.000 If my training boy, Fisher, see me sparring, he say, well, we just did nine rounds.

02:00:18.000 He ain't even breathing any sharp on the 7th, 8th, and 9th.

02:00:22.000 We got to take a break, take two days off.

02:00:25.000 So we have our sparring partners fighting.

02:00:28.000 So I used to have a guy named Lin Wood.

02:00:33.000 He was basically like, I can't entertain it.

02:00:38.000 Heavy guy like to eat.

02:00:39.000 There's nothing so he carries the camera.

02:00:40.000 Camera quarter this big.

02:00:42.000 And he filmed the off days, the sparring, the training that Mackie gave me the permission to use.

02:00:51.000 Everything Mackie was building me up to be quick, just like a middleweight.

02:00:57.000 Don't lose none of that.

02:00:58.000 But have the structure of a light heavyweight slash cruiserweight, which at that time was 190. And it's 200. Mackie Shortstone taught me above and beyond from a science and from his view to add on to mine.

02:01:20.000 And today, I pass that on to young fighters who ask or show them the video.

02:01:28.000 Bingo.

02:01:29.000 Here it is right here.

02:01:32.000 Different things he did.

02:01:33.000 Did a lot of unconventional stuff.

02:01:35.000 Unconventional stuff.

02:01:36.000 And you might look at it and say, what this guy do with boxing?

02:01:38.000 You don't punch like that in the ring.

02:01:40.000 But the explosiveness that he was telling me, moments of my explosiveness, like there, jumping off that and jumping on that has a lot to do with being in the ring when you're moving.

02:01:48.000 And a lot to do with that counter right there and that counter right hand.

02:01:53.000 These are the things that he used to be, the X-15, because he got that service mentality and he's telling you about the bombs and they come in, how you have to get in that mentality of being at war.

02:02:10.000 Like, the off days on a Sunday, Mack used to come To Big Bear, where I was staying at Oscar's facility at the time.

02:02:21.000 Golden Boy was promoting the fight.

02:02:26.000 And he would come and he would say, look, I'm going to fly out there.

02:02:31.000 We're going to go to the base.

02:02:33.000 And we're going to get in some number, I can't remember, one of them firefighting planes.

02:02:41.000 He did the same thing to Roy Jones Jr. Me and Roy got in the Hall of Fame The same time, two years ago.

02:02:50.000 So, he has the same experience.

02:02:53.000 We talked about it.

02:02:54.000 Mackie taught me, like you said, the unconditional way of Trainer coming in, showing you, building you up, maybe doing this, doing that.

02:03:03.000 But he took it to a sort of like a mental...

02:03:06.000 You're at war.

02:03:08.000 You have to be certain ways at certain time in the fight.

02:03:14.000 You might get cut.

02:03:15.000 You might get in survival mode, but not show that you're surviving.

02:03:19.000 How do you fight when you're tired?

02:03:27.000 How do you fight when you're tired?

02:03:28.000 Do you fight to survive?

02:03:30.000 Means you fight just to keep the guy off you because you don't want him to hit you no more.

02:03:36.000 That's fighting to survive.

02:03:37.000 Or do you learn how to survive and still kick ass?

02:03:43.000 I learned to do that.

02:03:45.000 When you see inside, I was brutal inside with my opponents.

02:03:55.000 I'll beat him and hit him every way they can imagine to break him down.

02:04:02.000 They call it, as the fighter would say, I fouled him or he hit me here, he hit me there.

02:04:11.000 Old school.

02:04:13.000 Old school.

02:04:15.000 If the referee is in the ring and we're fighting, We are fighting.

02:04:22.000 Well, it's boxing.

02:04:24.000 No, we are fighting.

02:04:27.000 When you fight, they set the rules.

02:04:32.000 You make the rules when you fight.

02:04:36.000 And if the referee sleep at the wheel and the referee don't see that you complaining about something that he didn't see, then that's on you.

02:04:47.000 Because the same thing I do to you, you can do to me.

02:04:51.000 So once you start telling the referee that I did something to you, I already got your heart now.

02:04:56.000 You want help.

02:04:59.000 See, Joe, we're always going back then.

02:05:02.000 What you eat, what you don't eat, you look great.

02:05:04.000 What's your secret?

02:05:05.000 No, I don't have a secret.

02:05:07.000 What's your diet?

02:05:08.000 No, it's not a diet.

02:05:08.000 It's a lifestyle.

02:05:09.000 I'm going to go back to this.

02:05:13.000 Especially in sports.

02:05:15.000 Any sports.

02:05:20.000 This right here is so important.

02:05:24.000 The mind.

02:05:25.000 I was so, and still, wrapped up into the mental because this controls everything.

02:05:36.000 This controls this.

02:05:40.000 This body doesn't control this.

02:05:44.000 They used to call weightlifting guys airheaded because...

02:05:49.000 They see this, and they're walking around, but where's the strategy book?

02:05:54.000 Where's the playbook?

02:05:56.000 You don't have none.

02:05:58.000 You just bring in a sawed-off shotgun to a fight.

02:06:04.000 And I'm coming with multiple opportunities to get you out of here.

02:06:10.000 In sports.

02:06:13.000 Now, if you hit me, you hit me.

02:06:15.000 I know that's the risk, but I got a better chance from getting you, and I got more opportunities how I get you.

02:06:21.000 That is important to me.

02:06:24.000 So when you talk about your overall biological age, how much of it do you think has to do not just with the lifestyle but with being defensively responsible?

02:06:33.000 Because you never really took beatings in your career.

02:06:37.000 You had good fights, but there was no beatings.

02:06:40.000 No.

02:06:41.000 You were always defensively responsible.

02:06:43.000 Yes, because I want to be able to have life after boxing.

02:06:47.000 And you maintain that discipline while you're fighting, even in the heat of a battle.

02:06:50.000 I maintain that discipline to not overreact and get excited even when I'm the hunter or being hunted.

02:07:01.000 Even if you look at that photo, that video that it just showed of you landing that right hand, your chin is tucked.

02:07:07.000 Yeah.

02:07:08.000 You're always tucked.

02:07:10.000 Yeah.

02:07:10.000 And that habit...

02:07:15.000 I was taught that.

02:07:17.000 How was I taught that?

02:07:21.000 In prison, everybody wanted to see their work.

02:07:27.000 They call it admiring your work.

02:07:29.000 You up, chin up, and you looking all good.

02:07:32.000 Even hitting the bag.

02:07:34.000 The way you hit the bag is the way you're going to hit your opponent.

02:07:37.000 Your stance has a lot to do.

02:07:38.000 Whatever you do outside the ring, you're going to do in the ring.

02:07:41.000 Did you keep something under your chin?

02:07:42.000 Like a tennis ball?

02:07:44.000 Ah, a tennis ball.

02:07:45.000 Yeah.

02:07:48.000 Not only do you keep it under your chin when you're hitting the bag.

02:07:51.000 The bag don't have arms.

02:07:53.000 You gotta visualize that bag got arms.

02:07:56.000 But try doing it when you got a guy that can fight at least 60-70% to give you some good work.

02:08:04.000 And you gotta have that.

02:08:05.000 And every time you drop it, you gotta do an extra round.

02:08:09.000 I got some rounds in.

02:08:11.000 Brother Nazeem.

02:08:13.000 Brother Nazeem.

02:08:16.000 Brother, you seen the yellow shirt with the Kufi?

02:08:18.000 Nazeem Richardson.

02:08:18.000 Correct.

02:08:21.000 Give me one more, soldier.

02:08:22.000 Give me one more round.

02:08:25.000 All right.

02:08:26.000 Because, you know, I ain't going to say I ain't got it.

02:08:27.000 Right.

02:08:30.000 Put the ball under my...

02:08:31.000 And we rumbling.

02:08:33.000 Now, it don't mean the guy knocked the ball out.

02:08:37.000 It's possible, but...

02:08:39.000 You let it go.

02:08:41.000 Right.

02:08:42.000 And I'm punching and ducking and getting hit, but that ball better be there when the bell rings.

02:08:50.000 Oh, that's so hard.

02:08:54.000 How many guys train like that?

02:08:56.000 I don't...

02:08:56.000 I haven't...

02:08:57.000 I passed it on.

02:08:59.000 I passed it on.

02:09:00.000 I mentioned it.

02:09:01.000 I passed it on the tennis ball.

02:09:03.000 We call it the tennis ball.

02:09:06.000 Ryan Garcia could use that advice.

02:09:10.000 A lot of times he'll stand straight up.

02:09:12.000 It's too late.

02:09:13.000 Yeah.

02:09:14.000 Too late?

02:09:15.000 Yeah.

02:09:15.000 I know this young guy's too late.

02:09:19.000 Why it's too late?

02:09:21.000 I believe because of the arrogance of saying what you need to do, knowing what you need to do, and doing what you need to do, and be consistent about it Is a whole nother conversation.

02:09:44.000 So either they do that or they don't and if they don't they're never gonna make it all the way.

02:09:49.000 Anybody they fight that recognizes it and discipline the weight to that time come and be real about it will be victorious.

02:10:00.000 This doesn't say that championship of the world Will escape him or he will never achieve that.

02:10:13.000 Absolutely, he will.

02:10:14.000 In this era especially.

02:10:19.000 No disrespect.

02:10:21.000 But in the same token, bad habits or a bad habit one day will kill you.

02:10:36.000 I didn't need Or kill your career.

02:10:41.000 I didn't need to be burnt four or five times once I got of knowledge that I didn't like that.

02:10:54.000 I went through all the juvenile system in Pennsylvania.

02:10:59.000 Then state in 17. And I say that because once I got a taste and understood my value and understood what I need to do to be successful, now I'm here.

02:11:14.000 I mean, this ain't dream talking.

02:11:17.000 This getting up, putting that work in, understand that everybody ain't going to be for you and everybody ain't against you.

02:11:31.000 But how you get the better of both, you let the adversaries of the other side, you let the opinions negative or not.

02:11:43.000 You have a contest amongst those who say, why you want to do that?

02:11:48.000 It's impossible.

02:11:48.000 No, that can't happen.

02:11:50.000 You're going to a two-way class.

02:11:52.000 Man, you're too old.

02:11:53.000 You're still fighting.

02:11:55.000 What about congratulations?

02:11:57.000 Right.

02:11:59.000 So I look at all these things in reflection sometimes, and I say to myself, I'm so glad I didn't take people's advice.

02:12:07.000 But it's just so amazing that you didn't listen to anybody, and it almost like it steeled your resolve.

02:12:13.000 Because when they were telling you you were too old for the Kelly Pavlik fight, and you knocked him out, and then you continue to fight at a world-class level after that, It's like he's not even done yet.

02:12:24.000 Because everyone else...

02:12:26.000 I mean, if we go back to some great fighters that...

02:12:30.000 I was always a big boxing fan, like way back in the 80s.

02:12:35.000 When those guys hit 34, 35, 36, 37...

02:12:41.000 Over.

02:12:41.000 The decline is coming.

02:12:42.000 It was basically over.

02:12:43.000 And some of them even before that, you know?

02:12:45.000 Some of them...

02:12:47.000 You just expected to see the decline, and the decline with you never came.

02:12:52.000 Never.

02:12:52.000 Never came.

02:12:53.000 Never.

02:12:53.000 Never came.

02:12:55.000 And even in your last fight, like when you fought Joe Smith, when you went through the ropes...

02:12:59.000 Who's fighting this Saturday.

02:13:00.000 Yeah, he's fighting this Saturday.

02:13:00.000 Fighting Zotto, that's what I'm going out to promote.

02:13:02.000 That, going through the ropes like that, scared the shit out of me.

02:13:05.000 Because like, what was below those ropes?

02:13:07.000 Was that just cement?

02:13:09.000 Yes.

02:13:09.000 Did you just fall right on the cement?

02:13:11.000 Yes.

02:13:11.000 What the fuck was going on there?

02:13:13.000 That they didn't protect the fighters more.

02:13:16.000 One of the things of safety that has been elevated to a level than 20 years ago...

02:13:24.000 But to me, there's more need to be done.

02:13:28.000 I'm not the only fighter that either got knocked out of the ring or fell out of the ring.

02:13:32.000 Right.

02:13:33.000 But it should be padding across that ring.

02:13:37.000 100%.

02:13:37.000 Even wrestlers that wrestle in college and sports, professional wrestling, they have a padding that...

02:13:49.000 In case someone goes through the ropes.

02:13:51.000 That can take some of the shock of the damage.

02:13:52.000 Did you land on your head?

02:13:54.000 Yes.

02:13:54.000 God damn.

02:13:56.000 Yeah.

02:13:57.000 It looked terrifying.

02:13:58.000 And, you know, you always flirt with falling out that ring.

02:14:03.000 You couple of feet up in the ring.

02:14:05.000 Yeah.

02:14:05.000 You know, you can paralyze yourself.

02:14:07.000 You can chip something.

02:14:08.000 You can die.

02:14:10.000 Anything can happen.

02:14:12.000 I was very fortunate.

02:14:13.000 Stayed in the hospital till the next morning.

02:14:15.000 Did x-rays.

02:14:16.000 Obviously, when I left LA, the fight was at the forum.

02:14:25.000 Got checked out by my personal doctor and was very, very fortunate to be in great shape after that.

02:14:36.000 Very fortunate.

02:14:40.000 I'm not expecting everything to be in a checkbox of A +, A +, A +, but little big important things.

02:14:52.000 Little thing is, A, I know y'all see this, it's a floor.

02:14:56.000 Semen floor.

02:14:57.000 You hit that, your head gonna crack like a coconut.

02:15:00.000 So, again, to me, majority of the people that surround boxing, It's not around for boxers itself.

02:15:14.000 They're around for money.

02:15:16.000 Correct.

02:15:17.000 And clout.

02:15:18.000 And clout.

02:15:20.000 When you fell through those ropes, man, it scared the shit out of me.

02:15:22.000 Because I was watching the way you fell, and I'm like, damn, did he just land on his head on the concrete?

02:15:29.000 Yep.

02:15:29.000 Backwards, too.

02:15:30.000 Yeah, backwards, right through the ropes.

02:15:31.000 And the ropes seemed loose.

02:15:33.000 They wasn't tight.

02:15:35.000 They was loose enough to actually, you could see the stretch of the rope when I tried to grab it.

02:15:40.000 I tried to see it.

02:15:41.000 I tried to grab it with the right hand.

02:15:42.000 Yeah.

02:15:43.000 The fact that you felt that way, I mean, that is fucking crazy.

02:15:48.000 I mean, that is a crazy way to fall through the ropes.

02:15:51.000 See, that's the shot I took, and I backed up, and I'm getting pushed back, and boom.

02:15:57.000 And look at the guy.

02:15:59.000 He just got out of the way.

02:16:00.000 He got out of the way, and let you fall right on your head.

02:16:04.000 And that was the big thing, too.

02:16:05.000 And that's like a four-foot drop.

02:16:07.000 That's a big drop.

02:16:08.000 I'd say five to four, yeah.

02:16:09.000 But if you look at how the guy just stepped away, didn't even put his hand up.

02:16:15.000 Watch this.

02:16:15.000 That guy could have caught you?

02:16:17.000 Of course.

02:16:18.000 He ran!

02:16:19.000 Did you ever see that guy again?

02:16:20.000 No.

02:16:20.000 What the fuck, dude?

02:16:21.000 Wherever you are.

02:16:22.000 I'm not saying he's not around.

02:16:24.000 Wherever he is.

02:16:25.000 What the fuck?

02:16:25.000 I don't even know what he look like.

02:16:26.000 How do you not catch Bernard Hopkins?

02:16:28.000 But now, since you show that, he's not going to even come to the fights anymore, probably.

02:16:31.000 He shouldn't come to the fights.

02:16:32.000 But...

02:16:34.000 He got out of the way!

02:16:35.000 Yeah, it's crazy.

02:16:37.000 Crazy.

02:16:38.000 He could have saved you.

02:16:39.000 Yes.

02:16:39.000 From falling.

02:16:40.000 Yeah, could have saved the back of your head.

02:16:42.000 Yeah.

02:16:42.000 And possibly the fight would have went on because I would have got back in the ring.

02:16:46.000 Yeah.

02:16:48.000 Did you know going into that fight that was going to be your last fight?

02:16:51.000 No.

02:16:53.000 You were 51?

02:16:56.000 51. 51. I mentioned that it was going to be my last fight.

02:17:03.000 But I didn't know because if I would have got past Joe Smith, I couldn't tell you right away that an opportunity of history would have made me think about the next and then got out.

02:17:20.000 But it was promoted.

02:17:22.000 As your last fight.

02:17:23.000 Correct.

02:17:24.000 And my family, people that are around me, We was all locked in on the last historic fight of my career with Joe Smith, who I never, even to that moment, underestimated him.

02:17:47.000 Knew he was young, strong, big.

02:17:50.000 A big light heavyweight, right?

02:17:53.000 I'm not a big, you look at me right now, I'm not a big light heavyweight.

02:17:57.000 But I started at light heavyweight in my career.

02:18:01.000 If you look at my record and the weight, I melt down to 60. Because that's what my trainer said, you're a middleweight.

02:18:08.000 You got a little fat there.

02:18:10.000 You've been in prison, that's waterweight.

02:18:12.000 You're going to eat better.

02:18:13.000 You're going to run better.

02:18:14.000 Atmosphere is better.

02:18:15.000 I start slimming down.

02:18:17.000 Oh, you're right.

02:18:18.000 Middleweight it is.

02:18:20.000 So I melt down.

02:18:21.000 I did the opposite.

02:18:23.000 Of the rules.

02:18:25.000 I melt down to 60. Normally, you come up two weight classes to being in the weight division because you grow into that weight or you eat your way into that weight.

02:18:38.000 That moment to outside of the family was a moment to say that, but we know As fighters, we know when it's time.

02:18:59.000 I ran out of things to do, as far as history making.

02:19:03.000 Because even though I wanted to do something and I'll beat that, you know, winning, like I've been successful most of the time, that day to be great is real.

02:19:19.000 And...

02:19:24.000 What was different that night until it happened?

02:19:31.000 Until it happened.

02:19:32.000 And that's the difference.

02:19:35.000 Because you don't count yourself out until you're out.

02:19:40.000 And then I looked at it as time went on.

02:19:43.000 You and I have been having a conversation for a few hours now. .

02:19:55.000 Like I got plenty of energy for a 58-year-old, right?

02:19:58.000 Yeah.

02:19:59.000 With three decades under my belt of boxing, right?

02:20:01.000 Yeah.

02:20:02.000 It doesn't seem like I'm slowing down anytime soon, right?

02:20:04.000 No.

02:20:06.000 I really sat home weeks after the fight was over with.

02:20:13.000 And steady taking, because you know, the opportunity of the opportunity, seeing an opportunity to try to make that fight my life at the end.

02:20:27.000 I said to him, some industry or the atmosphere out there that had one of the fruit tans that throw dirt On my grave of legacy, I said, y'all forgot something.

02:20:49.000 Or y'all want to forget, but I'm not going to let you forget.

02:20:56.000 If you look at my life up to now in boxing and starting off before I became a champion in boxing, I said I lost my first fight as a pro.

02:21:14.000 I lost my last fight as a pro.

02:21:20.000 Everything in the middle is a story, motivational, never give up story.

02:21:28.000 But you should be worried about what I do next because the way I started shows ain't the way I'm an end.

02:21:39.000 So in this third or fourth chapter of my life, at a young 58, fast approaching 59, the way I started shows that my character doesn't say I submit to the way it's going to play out or end.

02:21:57.000 So now the fight is different.

02:22:00.000 The fight ain't in the ring physically.

02:22:04.000 The fight is around a powerful character Controlling.

02:22:13.000 And that's boxing attitude when things blunt in your face.

02:22:20.000 That the fight I got now is the fight of Satchel Paige and his era in baseball.

02:22:26.000 The fight I have now is the fight that Jim Brown, Muhammad Ali, Bill Russell, and a lot of other greats at that time stood up when they needed to stand up at that moment for their cause.

02:22:39.000 I'll put them on notice before, I'll put them on notice again just because it's fresh that they're going to hear it again.

02:22:48.000 That this fight is different than the fight that got me here.

02:22:54.000 This fight is about here, discipline of patience, knowing how to use and strategize your chessboard And the pieces that's on that board,

02:23:10.000 if they willing to do what's been done for so many centuries, all the way up to now, then the only one thing I needed more for this fight is my health and my memory.

02:23:28.000 They better hope I keep it.

02:23:31.000 And that's the warning.

02:23:36.000 The warning is that I am the Satchel Paige of this era.

02:23:41.000 I'm gunning for that legacy.

02:23:44.000 I'm the Muhammad Ali when he spoke of his era for things that he spoke.

02:23:48.000 Vietcom never called me a nigga.

02:23:50.000 He said that in the 60s in this country.

02:23:56.000 Well, that was one of the reasons why he was so important culturally.

02:23:59.000 And that's why my idol, other than Marvin Hagler, when I say idol, I'm talking about idol and not idling him as my God, idol him as an example.

02:24:10.000 Right.

02:24:11.000 That there are some in any aspects of life that will risk it all.

02:24:17.000 And those who listen and hear this and have already said it, I've done.

02:24:22.000 Listen, if I'm...

02:24:24.000 If it was 50 to 100 million dollars made in my career, they'll play the game and eventually they'll trick me out of it later, that was left on the table because of this.

02:24:38.000 Not because of the emotions, because of this and because of this and because of that.

02:24:45.000 Because once I understood, I wanted to keep my mouth closed.

02:24:47.000 I said, oh, this is how it is.

02:24:49.000 But I needed power before I speak.

02:24:51.000 I needed to be world champion.

02:24:55.000 And my first world championship fight that we didn't talk about was Roy Jones Jr. in 1993. RFK Stadium.

02:25:02.000 I told you about the memory.

02:25:04.000 Under the Riddick Bowe, the heavyweight champion fighting Jesse Ferguson.

02:25:08.000 He was the main event.

02:25:09.000 I was the co-main.

02:25:11.000 Roy was the house fighter of HBO. Multi-million dollar contract.

02:25:17.000 I was known as the guy from Philadelphia Tough gonna give some work from the penitentiary.

02:25:25.000 You know, you gotta have a villain and you gotta have the nice guy.

02:25:33.000 And Roy gave me a lesson.

02:25:37.000 A lesson of what?

02:25:39.000 I wasn't ready.

02:25:41.000 Boy, when I got that opportunity a year or two, a year and a half later, the IBF, same title, vacant by Roy Jones Jr., Roy went up to 168, the next weight up.

02:26:00.000 I'm in line as the number one, number two contender.

02:26:04.000 I fight in Segundo Mercado in Quito, Ecuador.

02:26:08.000 He can push that fight up.

02:26:09.000 He'll see the first fight with Segundo Mercado, which means second in Spanish.

02:26:14.000 I called him second at the press conference.

02:26:17.000 You would never beat me.

02:26:17.000 I'm first.

02:26:18.000 You're second.

02:26:19.000 Segundo.

02:26:19.000 Your mother knew you was going to be second all your life.

02:26:25.000 So we go to Quito.

02:26:27.000 Hostile environment.

02:26:30.000 Quito at that time was at war, conflict with Peru.

02:26:37.000 But I was sold out by a promoter to get more money to bring me there to fight an Ecuadorian in Ecuador.

02:26:51.000 Joe, I get knocked down two times.

02:26:53.000 Got up, fought my way back up.

02:26:57.000 Finished the fight.

02:27:00.000 Here I'm in Ecuador being sold out by a promoter.

02:27:07.000 I get to Ecuador 11 plus thousand feet above sea level.

02:27:12.000 Probably higher than Denver, Colorado.

02:27:18.000 Couldn't breathe the first, second round after I exhausted myself to the max early on and fought my way with Segundo Mercado for the first fight we had and did a draw in Ecuador, fighting the Ecuadorian.

02:27:35.000 I take it.

02:27:37.000 I won the fight.

02:27:38.000 They would have killed me.

02:27:40.000 That's what the rumor was.

02:27:42.000 If you would have got that decision...

02:27:47.000 In Ecuador, even though I fought my way back from 7th to 12th, almost had him out, if you look at the video, in a very hostile environment, if they would have gave me that fight, we wouldn't have left Ecuador.

02:28:07.000 So they call it a draw.

02:28:11.000 The IBF mandated That the fight must happen in 120 days.

02:28:21.000 They had to get the work right away, but the energy was different than going to Ecuador.

02:28:30.000 Don King wasn't sure of Segundo beating me in America If he couldn't beat me in his hometown in Ecuador.

02:28:46.000 So the promotion was kind of froggy.

02:28:50.000 But we went through the process and I became champion in Ecuador.

02:28:57.000 I mean, in America.

02:29:02.000 In 95. Knocking out Segundo Mercado.

02:29:08.000 In Landover, Maryland.

02:29:12.000 And then defended that title for 12 years.

02:29:16.000 That was the first IBF title I had.

02:29:19.000 Yeah.

02:29:21.000 That IBF title, based in New Jersey, East Orange, New Jersey.

02:29:27.000 That IBF title was the title I had.

02:29:32.000 All the way up to the 20s in defense.

02:29:34.000 That was the first title.

02:29:35.000 And the politics and the confusion of boxing, there are so many belts.

02:29:42.000 Yeah.

02:29:43.000 Which makes it limited to be Undisputed until Undisputed today is being talked about more than ever now.

02:29:53.000 Did you watch the fight the other day?

02:29:56.000 Which one?

02:29:57.000 Canelo and...

02:29:57.000 Yes.

02:29:59.000 Did you see they picked the screen up, Bernard Hopkins, as the last or the reboot of The Undisputed?

02:30:08.000 And then they had all other names.

02:30:10.000 Mm-hmm.

02:30:12.000 In the full belt era, in the full belt, full belt era, my name is up there first.

02:30:20.000 Now, Showtime ain't, even though I've been on Showtime more than I've been on HBO, but the politics ain't there for me because of the players they work with.

02:30:27.000 I get it.

02:30:29.000 But it was hard for them to try to cut that out.

02:30:32.000 They couldn't.

02:30:33.000 I sat home and I laughed.

02:30:34.000 I had laughs.

02:30:35.000 I thought I had horses.

02:30:36.000 I laughed.

02:30:37.000 I said, because I know for a fact that That if they can take that name and share less light on Bernard Hopkins, then it was great.

02:30:54.000 And even though you didn't ask this, my case in point is this, all the stuff I told you earlier, what I just said now, the Ryan Garcia and Tate fight, we was the second promoters.

02:31:07.000 They put up the bigger money, big fight.

02:31:11.000 It was a PBC, right?

02:31:15.000 Card.

02:31:17.000 Al Heyman card.

02:31:19.000 I ain't afraid to say his name.

02:31:24.000 They tried to oust me.

02:31:26.000 You follow my opinion?

02:31:27.000 I put everything.

02:31:29.000 I waited for about two weeks.

02:31:31.000 Strategy.

02:31:33.000 Art of War.

02:31:34.000 Sun Tzu.

02:31:35.000 I waited.

02:31:36.000 I waited.

02:31:39.000 You didn't ask, but you let me talk.

02:31:43.000 They slayed us.

02:31:44.000 We didn't come to the dressing room.

02:31:45.000 You heard about that?

02:31:46.000 Oscar and them didn't come to Ryan's dressing room.

02:31:49.000 We abandoned him.

02:31:50.000 I don't know if you heard.

02:31:50.000 We're supposed to abandon him.

02:31:52.000 We didn't lose.

02:31:52.000 We look like dish bags, right?

02:31:54.000 We look like scumbags.

02:31:57.000 He loses now that the promoters, you know, and if you got any other agenda, any other agenda from whatever you got it from or why you have it, this was your time now to show yourself.

02:32:09.000 So I waited, waited, waited.

02:32:14.000 And credit to Joy, my assistant slash fiance, she said, I got all the video.

02:32:24.000 You didn't know I was video on the corner of everything.

02:32:27.000 Why would he say y'all didn't come?

02:32:31.000 So I said, you did what?

02:32:32.000 She said, I got video.

02:32:33.000 The moment he hugged you and he said sorry to you that it didn't work out and you was telling him that Oscar got a death threat and the bodyguards took him out?

02:32:46.000 She's videoing.

02:32:47.000 She's in the dressing room video.

02:32:49.000 I said, you have it.

02:32:51.000 I said, show it to me because we're getting slayed public opinion.

02:32:57.000 Right.

02:33:00.000 I still got footage.

02:33:01.000 I ain't even throw out yet.

02:33:02.000 She said, here they go.

02:33:03.000 So I looked at it.

02:33:03.000 I said, yo, I need this.

02:33:05.000 Let's take our time.

02:33:06.000 Take a deep breath.

02:33:09.000 Strategy over emotions.

02:33:11.000 Intellect.

02:33:13.000 Intellect over emotions.

02:33:15.000 Strategy over emotions.

02:33:16.000 Let's put all this together.

02:33:17.000 Take a deep breath.

02:33:18.000 I said, first of all, thank you.

02:33:20.000 Right?

02:33:20.000 Look for, you know, not now, but a raise coming soon.

02:33:27.000 I said, now...

02:33:29.000 You're good with this Instagram stuff.

02:33:31.000 I'm totally like I just come home from penitentiary.

02:33:34.000 I'm lost.

02:33:35.000 Still.

02:33:36.000 I can't keep up with this.

02:33:37.000 Good.

02:33:39.000 My 12 year old son can.

02:33:40.000 It's good to not keep up with this.

02:33:43.000 I can't misspelling words.

02:33:47.000 It's just crazy.

02:33:50.000 I said, listen, we've been hammering the last two weeks.

02:33:54.000 He said, I know, I know.

02:33:55.000 So I said, look, you're good with this Instagram.

02:33:58.000 Let's just break this up certain days and make it make sense, not just throw it out there.

02:34:06.000 So he said everything he needed to say.

02:34:11.000 Now we gotta come with...

02:34:13.000 What do you mean not in this corner?

02:34:15.000 What do you mean we didn't show up at the press conference?

02:34:18.000 They wouldn't let me in the fucking ring!

02:34:20.000 If you go to my Instagram, you'll see they...

02:34:22.000 No, you can't.

02:34:24.000 They blocked me from getting in the ring!

02:34:26.000 What they expected!

02:34:28.000 What they expected from me!

02:34:30.000 Watch this move!

02:34:33.000 Thank you, producer.

02:34:34.000 Great guy over there.

02:34:36.000 Watch this move.

02:34:37.000 Bernard can't come in the ring.

02:34:39.000 Bernard can't come to the ring.

02:34:40.000 Tom Brown!

02:34:41.000 That's Al Heyman's flunky right there.

02:34:43.000 He's a promoter license.

02:34:44.000 And Al Heyman hides behind him.

02:34:46.000 So, his name is Tom Brown.

02:34:49.000 Al Heyman hides behind him because by the Muhammad Ali Act that I stood up for, it doesn't cover advisors.

02:34:57.000 It doesn't cover consultants.

02:34:59.000 So now, those lawyers, because he has a Harvard Law degree, Al Heyman.

02:35:08.000 He hires promoters, especially Tom Brown, who comes from the Goossens in Denver, Colorado.

02:35:14.000 Known very well.

02:35:16.000 He sat next to me.

02:35:19.000 He sat here, Joy, and me.

02:35:22.000 I switched seats with Joy because I told her Tom Brown is the eyes and ears while we sit in there.

02:35:29.000 They had control of the tickets.

02:35:32.000 They had control of the show because they're the leading promoters.

02:35:35.000 P-B-C. So I was quiet ringside.

02:35:45.000 All the fighters from their side was behind me.

02:35:49.000 So I was in their row.

02:35:50.000 That's the seats, the section they put me at.

02:35:52.000 Even Oscar was to my right.

02:35:56.000 They had me right near the corner churnbuckle.

02:36:02.000 Because if you look at any Golden Boy fights, I'm always in the middle because we have control and the fighters always look out.

02:36:09.000 They got trainers, don't look at me, but they do look.

02:36:12.000 Sometimes the fight mode come in and I can't help myself.

02:36:17.000 I'm learning to be more subdued while I'm sitting, watching as the promoter.

02:36:24.000 So they had my seat Where the churn buckle, the corner...

02:36:36.000 Was in your way.

02:36:36.000 Correct.

02:36:37.000 So you couldn't see.

02:36:38.000 So...

02:36:39.000 Yes.

02:36:41.000 So...

02:36:41.000 I watched from my seat.

02:36:47.000 Leaned to the right, which I had a slightly better view.

02:36:53.000 But those moments of the art of war...

02:36:57.000 This ain't...

02:36:59.000 Complaining...

02:37:03.000 They was prepared, but I was prepared too.

02:37:08.000 They knew I was coming.

02:37:09.000 They knew the energy I was bringing.

02:37:13.000 See, I wasn't coming.

02:37:15.000 Listen.

02:37:19.000 Oscar personality is not my personality.

02:37:23.000 That's the best way I can explain it to you.

02:37:30.000 If I see something, I'm going to speak on what I see.

02:37:33.000 I'm not going to run and tell somebody what I can do and say myself.

02:37:39.000 To me, that's a man.

02:37:42.000 They was prepared because we did business.

02:37:46.000 Before Al Heyman branched off to do his company, He took 80, 90% of Golden Boy fighters because those fighters, including Floyd Mayweather, was under what?

02:38:02.000 Golden Boy.

02:38:05.000 So he took, per se, if you're in the music business, he took his catalog and started PBC. I didn't go.

02:38:21.000 It's some bad blood.

02:38:24.000 Because everybody know the situation, even to today.

02:38:29.000 Oscar definitely understands and know it.

02:38:34.000 I was a nail in the coffin if they would have got me to leave based on a contract that they gave me to leave.

02:38:43.000 What was in it for me?

02:38:48.000 And I seen...

02:38:51.000 That it was crowded over there at PBC. And I still, even to today, understand the process is always a risk, but I'd rather be on this side, even with the baggage.

02:39:13.000 They wanted to predict our demise.

02:39:19.000 We're going to be in federal court in six months.

02:39:23.000 Oscar reminds me all the time.

02:39:24.000 You remember they said this, partner.

02:39:27.000 They're not going to last six months.

02:39:31.000 He's going to see.

02:39:32.000 They came back door, they thought.

02:39:37.000 Trying to poison the waters.

02:39:39.000 So this is just a bunch of dirty business that goes along.

02:39:41.000 Filthy.

02:39:42.000 Dirty.

02:39:42.000 That's a good word.

02:39:44.000 Filthy.

02:39:44.000 Yeah.

02:39:45.000 So...

02:39:48.000 20 plus years later, a lot of things didn't change in boxing.

02:39:54.000 Ain't breaking news, but a lot of people don't know.

02:39:57.000 A lot of big networks, one already left.

02:40:00.000 HBO's gone.

02:40:02.000 This is what I was leading to.

02:40:07.000 There's a whole churn as you aware of the churn.

02:40:14.000 You haven't been in Austin a year yet, have you?

02:40:16.000 Three years.

02:40:17.000 Three years, right?

02:40:19.000 Three years, right?

02:40:20.000 Yeah.

02:40:22.000 But it was a reason to change from there to here.

02:40:27.000 I assume.

02:40:28.000 Yeah.

02:40:30.000 Boxing is changing and has changed even more.

02:40:35.000 So one left for 40 plus years, HBO, correct?

02:40:41.000 And you being a boxing fan, I know they kind of heard it.

02:40:44.000 Yeah.

02:40:46.000 My prediction is that Showtime is finally ready to pack it in.

02:40:56.000 That's not good.

02:40:58.000 But it's not a death sentence for those who pull their bootstraps up.

02:41:02.000 And if you don't have no boots, find some.

02:41:05.000 Because this is a man-thinking game.

02:41:09.000 Not checkers.

02:41:10.000 Do you think the future is in streaming?

02:41:12.000 Showtime will pack up boxing only.

02:41:18.000 I'll be surprised if they got another year left.

02:41:22.000 That's unfortunate because that leaves DAZN, that leaves ESPN+. It's not as many options.

02:41:29.000 Now that's where the creativity has to get in play now.

02:41:36.000 You say you are who you are.

02:41:39.000 This goes for everybody.

02:41:40.000 It's all...

02:41:42.000 We all got blood on our hands in some way.

02:41:44.000 Hold up.

02:41:47.000 This is where the creativity now kicks in.

02:41:51.000 You say who you are.

02:41:53.000 You on the block now.

02:41:55.000 You say who you...

02:41:56.000 Okay.

02:41:57.000 First of all, you're doing too much talking so he ain't real.

02:42:00.000 You gotta get tried right away.

02:42:02.000 This is the trying time now.

02:42:04.000 Let's see who now can sink or swim.

02:42:07.000 Golden Boy also.

02:42:09.000 All of us.

02:42:10.000 So now this separates the men from the fakes.

02:42:13.000 Now, if you've been frauded, if you've been frauded, hiding behind, and you had a time limit when you're going to exit and you prepared yourself, then that's one thing that should work good for that person that thinks that way.

02:42:28.000 There are fighters on the other side that got to pay every time they fight in any other entity.

02:42:37.000 Joe Rogan has a promotion in boxing.

02:42:39.000 You got 10 fighters on your side.

02:42:43.000 Just say I'm Golden Boy.

02:42:44.000 I got fighters on my side.

02:42:48.000 You ain't seen because you hired somebody to do your business for you so you can hide back and hide behind the scenes, but you have knowledge of law so you know how to manipulate certain things.

02:43:00.000 So, if you risk having a contract Monday But knowing things can change as time go on, you want to tie your Campbell.

02:43:10.000 What do you mean?

02:43:12.000 Well, if the well runs dry, if that fighter goes and fights at another house, another promotion, that you ain't no longer controlling, the fighters now start to look at the contract and say, I gotta give up 35%.

02:43:29.000 I gotta give up 40% of my purse.

02:43:33.000 Even though Barbara Hamm is doing a fight.

02:43:36.000 Golden Boy is doing a fight.

02:43:39.000 That's what promoters do.

02:43:41.000 Now you're realizing at the wrong time.

02:43:44.000 Nine out of ten at the telling in your career.

02:43:46.000 Whether you're in your 30s, you mentioned it, the age, normally 30, 34, 35, you're normally packing up, ready to roll out, trying to get a couple of paydays here and there.

02:43:54.000 But there's a real bad taste in a lot of Business people, TV, and also fighters that realizing everything was great.

02:44:09.000 You bought your car.

02:44:10.000 You got to upkeep.

02:44:12.000 You got to keep that lifestyle or you got to understand how to live different.

02:44:18.000 And that's the shock that they're seeing now, that they've been manipulated, bamboozled, and The only thing, which is not only, but the only thing that some would say to justify the dying kings of this era, they got paid.

02:44:49.000 They got paid.

02:44:51.000 You give ignorance money, they're going to be More ignorant than they was when you gave them money without they giving money.

02:44:58.000 They ain't gonna be smart because you gave them money.

02:45:00.000 Other than the business of boxing, though, how do you feel about the sport?

02:45:05.000 How do you feel about the sport today, like the caliber of fighters?

02:45:09.000 I'm sure you must be a fan of Terrence Crawford.

02:45:12.000 Yes.

02:45:12.000 One of my favorite guys to watch.

02:45:14.000 Phenomenal.

02:45:14.000 Best switch hitter since Marvin Hadley.

02:45:16.000 Yes.

02:45:17.000 Yes.

02:45:17.000 We tried to promote that fight, and he had a choice like we all do, and he chose to do what he needed to do, and he was successful with it.

02:45:25.000 Absolutely a technical, serious, mentally strong, and definitely can be around as long as he want to.

02:45:38.000 Yeah.

02:45:41.000 Badass.

02:45:41.000 Yeah, he's a bad man.

02:45:42.000 And there's a good crop of people like that today.

02:45:46.000 Tank is another one.

02:45:47.000 Yes.

02:45:48.000 Phenomenal fighter.

02:45:49.000 Yes.

02:45:49.000 Look, Kid Austin is right on the hills.

02:45:52.000 Right?

02:45:52.000 Kid Austin.

02:45:53.000 Correct.

02:45:54.000 Bruce.

02:45:54.000 And let me tell you, you, you, you, look.

02:45:58.000 I can promote a lot of our fighters.

02:46:00.000 You're expecting me to mention a whole bunch of names.

02:46:02.000 Got this week Zoto making a comeback after getting dominated, right?

02:46:07.000 Real bad overseas.

02:46:11.000 But that was the first shot in the CIA. He bounced back down.

02:46:14.000 This is the career going forward.

02:46:17.000 Morgia.

02:46:19.000 It's a lot of talent, even on the other side of the street.

02:46:22.000 The next house.

02:46:23.000 The next promotional house.

02:46:24.000 There's so many fights.

02:46:26.000 But you know what, Joe?

02:46:29.000 and mean squat if they don't get made.

02:46:31.000 You and fans around the world want to see the best fighting the best.

02:46:38.000 I did a segment for four episodes of interviews.

02:46:45.000 Interviews, rather, not episodes.

02:46:50.000 On Fight News.

02:46:51.000 Talking about fights that need to be made.

02:46:54.000 And the first one out of the gate.

02:46:57.000 Pitting the pressure.

02:46:58.000 Running his mouth here.

02:47:00.000 Was Tank Davis and Ryan Garcia.

02:47:03.000 It's there.

02:47:04.000 How did you think that fight was going to play out?

02:47:07.000 I thought the fight was going to play out.

02:47:09.000 And I anticipated the fight playing out.

02:47:11.000 Where Ryan would use all the attributes that he had to his best ability.

02:47:16.000 What I mean by that is...

02:47:18.000 Stay out.

02:47:19.000 Length.

02:47:20.000 Stay outside.

02:47:21.000 Speed.

02:47:22.000 Speed.

02:47:24.000 Remember, don't admire your work, right?

02:47:28.000 Don't be the squirrel with your head up looking for something.

02:47:31.000 Keep it down.

02:47:33.000 He mentioned it working in training that they was working on that.

02:47:38.000 They was focused on that.

02:47:40.000 Reporters was asking, you're going to keep your head down?

02:47:42.000 Of course, that's the easy thing to ask, but that's what he was known for.

02:47:48.000 I want it, and I believe Ryan, when he said he's going to box him, he's not going to get into his emotions and try to show Bravo like he's getting to a shootout.

02:48:00.000 You're getting a shootout, he's done.

02:48:02.000 Tank carries the power.

02:48:04.000 He's sneaky.

02:48:07.000 Explosive.

02:48:08.000 Explosive.

02:48:09.000 Yeah.

02:48:10.000 You think you're doing something?

02:48:12.000 Yeah.

02:48:13.000 And he rides off that overconfident, where now he recognized this old school.

02:48:19.000 He's so interesting, too.

02:48:21.000 Baltimore Merlin, he's so old school.

02:48:22.000 You know who old school is?

02:48:23.000 Yeah.

02:48:25.000 Anybody that's throwing punches is open to get hit.

02:48:30.000 Anybody.

02:48:31.000 And everybody that throws punches, you leave an opportunity.

02:48:36.000 It's who get there first.

02:48:38.000 It's like fencing.

02:48:40.000 Mm-hmm.

02:48:43.000 When you throw punches, no matter how straight, no matter how your stance are, when this becomes away from your body and things that you need to protect, the ribs, the chin.

02:48:54.000 It's always an opening.

02:48:55.000 It's always opening.

02:48:57.000 Who get there first?

02:48:58.000 And Tank is so good again.

02:48:59.000 Tank is so good.

02:49:00.000 Tank will give you something that's really not there.

02:49:06.000 It's literally, you know, you think is, you know about the three top, the ball and the three top hustle?

02:49:15.000 You think he showed it to you.

02:49:17.000 You think he did a couple of these.

02:49:19.000 It's not there.

02:49:21.000 He shows you something that is like an illusion.

02:49:27.000 Might not be the first time once he tried you and you go for it, but it's coming.

02:49:32.000 And that's how he sets you up.

02:49:34.000 He sets traps.

02:49:35.000 Yeah, he sets traps and he's got ridiculous one-punch knockout power, too.

02:49:40.000 He's just such an interesting fighter because his style is so different from everybody else.

02:49:44.000 He's so conservative in the early rounds.

02:49:46.000 He throws so few punches.

02:49:47.000 And he lets you work.

02:49:49.000 He lets you work and you're backing up and you're always afraid of that power.

02:49:52.000 And he's just moving in, trying to find that opening where he just gets in there on you.

02:49:57.000 Your mind is burning energy.

02:49:59.000 You're physically burning energy because you know, right, even if he just tits you in an arm, you know based on what you've been hearing through the whole press conference and through the whole fights he had before then, yourself, that you better not get hit.

02:50:16.000 See, power rules everything around you.

02:50:21.000 One thing about power, you're going to lose all the fights, all the rounds in dead power.

02:50:25.000 Come on.

02:50:26.000 That would make the foreman's, Mike Tyson.

02:50:30.000 Deontay Wilder.

02:50:31.000 Power.

02:50:33.000 Rules.

02:50:33.000 Yeah.

02:50:34.000 I got one shot and it's over.

02:50:40.000 I can be losing a whole 90, I can be losing an army to the 12th round and hit you with that power.

02:50:49.000 And to get to the 12th, 11th, 10th, 9th, 8th, you're walking in treading danger.

02:50:56.000 You're walking through a minefield at any time, any false, any bad move is over.

02:51:02.000 Fighting tankers like that.

02:51:04.000 One last thing to talk to you about before we get out of here.

02:51:07.000 What do you think about this crazy fight between Tyson Fury and Francis Ngannou?

02:51:13.000 What do you think about them setting up that fight?

02:51:14.000 I like Tyson Fury, though, man.

02:51:16.000 I like Tyson Fury.

02:51:17.000 I like Tyson Fury because of his unorthodox, even the way he looks.

02:51:23.000 Everything.

02:51:23.000 The way he looks, the way he talks.

02:51:24.000 I ain't got to explain anything else because we're on the same page.

02:51:26.000 And I believe that the world understands that this ain't what we're used to looking at when we're talking about heavyweights.

02:51:33.000 You're thinking of a guy, you want a guy look like Lennox Lewis in his prime.

02:51:36.000 Chiseled.

02:51:38.000 Look at him.

02:51:40.000 He likes tricking you, too.

02:51:44.000 He shows that big belly.

02:51:45.000 No, listen, he's like the guy Fred, the dude, like my mechanic.

02:51:49.000 He handles all...

02:51:51.000 But I'm telling you...

02:51:52.000 He's an animal.

02:51:53.000 He's an animal.

02:51:54.000 And he's promotable.

02:51:56.000 Yeah.

02:51:56.000 His personality.

02:51:57.000 Oh, for days.

02:51:58.000 I mean, you can't, like...

02:52:00.000 But what do you think about Francis Ngannou having a fight with literally one of the greatest heavyweights of all time?

02:52:07.000 And he's never had a professional boxing fight.

02:52:11.000 Again.

02:52:13.000 How did he get there?

02:52:14.000 Well, he got there from being the UFC heavyweight champion.

02:52:17.000 Who?

02:52:17.000 But that UFC. Yeah.

02:52:19.000 Exactly.

02:52:21.000 Listen.

02:52:22.000 Listen.

02:52:23.000 I can visualize you and I sitting right here.

02:52:25.000 Right?

02:52:26.000 You got the Dana White right now.

02:52:28.000 Okay.

02:52:29.000 Okay?

02:52:30.000 I consider Dana White a friend.

02:52:32.000 Right?

02:52:32.000 I really do.

02:52:33.000 He's definitely a sports fan or anything.

02:52:34.000 Oh, yeah.

02:52:35.000 But, look.

02:52:40.000 Half of this is show.

02:52:41.000 The other half, because of Tyson Fury, only is a boxing match.

02:52:48.000 For a belt, I assume, right?

02:52:51.000 There's some...

02:52:52.000 Exactly!

02:52:53.000 They got somebody to put something together.

02:52:56.000 I got you.

02:52:57.000 It's a money payday.

02:52:59.000 It's a payday.

02:53:01.000 Right?

02:53:02.000 Canelo payday.

02:53:05.000 This does nothing...

02:53:08.000 Other than payday for Tyson Fury.

02:53:11.000 He lose to a UFC guy.

02:53:14.000 Which I'm saying he won't.

02:53:18.000 I bet everything I love.

02:53:22.000 I bet everything I love.

02:53:28.000 Entertainment on a higher level because of Tyson Fury.

02:53:31.000 Right.

02:53:32.000 But also because of the novelty of this UFC heavyweight champion leaving the UFC and securing this boxing fight.

02:53:40.000 Anybody that leaves the UFC, undefeated or not undefeated, would not be successful on that level.

02:53:46.000 Or any level where a fighter on a boxing level has a heartbeat and possibly a pulse is going to be victorious.

02:53:55.000 That's why it becomes a show.

02:53:58.000 More than the real deal.

02:54:00.000 And that's why it's not even being talked about as a heavyweight fight from a heavyweight fight that we know of.

02:54:06.000 Not from the boxing community.

02:54:07.000 Correct.

02:54:07.000 Right.

02:54:08.000 Because we don't sanction that, man.

02:54:10.000 But does it upset you that this guy jumps in front of Usyk, jumps in front of Joshua, jumps in front of anybody else in the division and gets to fight Tyson Fury?

02:54:20.000 Or do you think, hey, good for him.

02:54:22.000 He gets his payday.

02:54:23.000 Right.

02:54:24.000 Because that's how I feel about it.

02:54:25.000 Because I love Francis, and I'm happy that Francis is going to get a whopping bag.

02:54:31.000 But let me...

02:54:32.000 Now, that's emotional.

02:54:35.000 Yes.

02:54:36.000 But in the sports, and where I come from, I'm biased too.

02:54:39.000 Yeah.

02:54:40.000 I think Tyson Fury has...

02:54:45.000 A fruit top people that me and you would love to see in spite of who he's ready to fight.

02:54:50.000 Correct?

02:54:50.000 Usyk.

02:54:51.000 Correct.

02:54:51.000 Usyk is the big one.

02:54:52.000 First.

02:54:52.000 That's the big one.

02:54:53.000 If Usyk is not available, I think that Tyson Fury would beat him.

02:55:01.000 What about Wilder?

02:55:04.000 Yeah.

02:55:04.000 I mean Joshua.

02:55:05.000 Yes.

02:55:07.000 Right?

02:55:08.000 Yeah.

02:55:10.000 There's heavyweights out there.

02:55:13.000 That's in the top five.

02:55:14.000 I only say ten.

02:55:16.000 That are better and have more credentials than what's happening.

02:55:21.000 Andy Ruiz.

02:55:22.000 Correct.

02:55:22.000 Yeah.

02:55:23.000 Who, to me, he's trying to get a fight now.

02:55:28.000 Yeah.

02:55:28.000 Right?

02:55:29.000 He's trying to get a fight as we speak.

02:55:31.000 Right now.

02:55:32.000 And not a big heavyweight.

02:55:34.000 Right?

02:55:36.000 In some cases, you'll think of blowing up Cruiserweight, right?

02:55:39.000 Not a big guy, right?

02:55:41.000 You'll think they'll be chopping at the bit.

02:55:43.000 They're going to make millions of dollars.

02:55:45.000 That fight there is more credibility and more, I guess, what people want to see than entertainment that Tyson Fury is ready to show this week.

02:55:59.000 And he gets a knockout within five rounds.

02:56:00.000 You think so?

02:56:01.000 Yeah.

02:56:03.000 One other guy I want to talk to you about that I don't think gets enough credit is Arthur Bitterbeef.

02:56:08.000 That guy's a motherfucker.

02:56:11.000 People don't know him.

02:56:13.000 I mean, he can't secure that big fight.

02:56:16.000 And that's one of the reasons why?

02:56:19.000 Dangerous.

02:56:20.000 Dangerous.

02:56:20.000 19-0, 19 knockouts.

02:56:23.000 But this is the thing about the generation of fighters, not all, but most, They don't want an L on their record.

02:56:37.000 What about your legacy?

02:56:41.000 They want the bag, of course, but they don't dare to be great.

02:56:47.000 They want, most of them, want to fight the fights that they have a better chance on winning.

02:56:56.000 And when you tell most of them of this generation...

02:57:01.000 About history.

02:57:04.000 They look at you like you got three heads.

02:57:06.000 Like, history.

02:57:07.000 Like, you talking late 20s, early 30s, or younger.

02:57:12.000 You talking about 25 years from now, they're going to be...

02:57:16.000 And this is a legit conversation.

02:57:18.000 They look at you like...

02:57:20.000 25. You're talking to a 19-year-old who don't understand that time go by so fast.

02:57:27.000 Time go by so damn fast in boxing.

02:57:32.000 I started at 25. Something fucking heard of.

02:57:37.000 I started at 25. I had the room based on lifestyle, based on offense, defense, based on my mental.

02:57:45.000 I stressed it out.

02:57:48.000 And part of that time, you gotta look at the time I started late as a pro.

02:57:54.000 Not as an amateur, but as a pro.

02:57:57.000 I ain't win no AAUs and no Golden Globes and no Olympic gold medal, but I had local fights in the city, little tournaments here and tournaments there.

02:58:09.000 But I look at all these things to answer questions that's asked all the time.

02:58:17.000 The way I just said to you and explained to you about all these things, whether it's the boxing politics, the fighters that's fighting now, each other, the fights that scheduled the fight right now.

02:58:33.000 This is a great time for good fights to be made.

02:58:38.000 Let's make them.

02:58:39.000 Let's make them.

02:58:40.000 Bernard, you're a legend.

02:58:41.000 It's an honor to have you on here.

02:58:43.000 I really appreciate you being here.

02:58:45.000 Appreciate it.

02:58:45.000 Best of luck with everything.

02:58:47.000 Thank you very much, sir.

02:58:48.000 For real.

02:58:48.000 It's an honor.

02:58:49.000 Yes, sir.

02:58:49.000 I've always been a giant fan.

02:58:50.000 Thank you so much.

02:58:51.000 Thank you so much.

02:58:53.000 Bernard Hopkins, ladies and gentlemen.

02:58:54.000 Thank you very much.

The Joe Rogan Experience - October 19, 2011

JRE MMA Show #148 with Bernard Hopkins

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