The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #26 with Big John McCarthy

00:00:01.000 Five, four, three, two, one.

00:00:04.000 Boom.

00:00:05.000 And we're live with the OG of OGs.

00:00:07.000 If there's more of an OG MMA character than you, I don't know who the fuck they would be.

00:00:13.000 Who's more?

00:00:14.000 Hoist Gracie and you.

00:00:15.000 That's about as OG as it gets, right?

00:00:18.000 You know what that means?

00:00:19.000 What does that mean?

00:00:20.000 You're both fucking old.

00:00:21.000 We're all old.

00:00:22.000 Yeah, we're old.

00:00:22.000 Dude.

00:00:23.000 I was watching, the other day was the 20th anniversary of Dan Henderson's first UFC appearance, and as me interviewing him afterwards, I'm like, who's that fucking little kid interviewing Dan Henderson?

00:00:33.000 Who's Dan Henderson pretending to be Dan Henderson?

00:00:35.000 UFC 12. Yeah, Dothan, Alabama.

00:00:38.000 Well, you got transferred.

00:00:39.000 Yeah.

00:00:40.000 Well, we're supposed to go up to Buffalo.

00:00:42.000 Niagara, go down to Dothan.

00:00:43.000 They canceled it out of New York.

00:00:46.000 New York said, get out of here, and we had to take a puddle jumper plane.

00:00:49.000 Remember all that, Jess?

00:00:50.000 Oh, dude, I remember it very well.

00:00:52.000 I was in court.

00:00:53.000 Goddamn, I knew I was in trouble.

00:00:55.000 Yeah, you were one of the people that I cite all the time for why that stupid reason, the 12-6 elbow, you're the one who just explained it to me.

00:01:05.000 Because I couldn't believe that what you're telling me was true.

00:01:08.000 The reason 12-6 elbows were illegal...

00:01:10.000 Well, just tell the story.

00:01:12.000 The truth of the story is, there's so many stories about rules and how they came about.

00:01:20.000 And there's guys claiming things, and it's like, really?

00:01:23.000 Okay.

00:01:24.000 I have paperwork that shows how things came out.

00:01:30.000 At what time it was.

00:01:32.000 And I still have my computers that I have things written on that we went over stuff.

00:01:35.000 You have computers from the 90s?

00:01:37.000 Dude, I still have.

00:01:38.000 No, I've got floppy disk.

00:01:40.000 No, you don't.

00:01:40.000 Swear to God.

00:01:41.000 You do?

00:01:41.000 Unbelievable.

00:01:42.000 What do you do with it?

00:01:43.000 Not a damn thing.

00:01:44.000 How much can a floppy disk hold?

00:01:46.000 Not even like a megabyte, right?

00:01:47.000 Nothing.

00:01:48.000 Nothing.

00:01:48.000 It holds a couple of pages of a document.

00:01:51.000 But do you remember when the floppy disk went away?

00:01:52.000 Everybody panicked.

00:01:53.000 Like, what are you doing?

00:01:55.000 You're fucking taking away the floppy disk?

00:01:57.000 That's outrageous!

00:01:58.000 Where are you going to put stuff on?

00:01:59.000 Yeah, when Mac got rid of the floppy disk, I remember people were like, these guys are assholes.

00:02:03.000 Like, what are they thinking?

00:02:05.000 But anyways, when the unified rules, you know, what happened was, everyone looks at the UFC and says, oh, well, you know, when the UFC went to the first show that was done in New Jersey...

00:02:17.000 Was the IFC, Paul Smith's show.

00:02:21.000 It was done in September, I want to say, of 1999. And the UFC went there in November of 1999. And you have to go back and understand the history of what was going on.

00:02:35.000 And this is where I have my issues with people that try to change history and rewrite things.

00:02:42.000 And what was going on was...

00:02:45.000 Semaphore Entertainment Group at the time owned the UFC. That's who you were working for.

00:02:49.000 Bob Meyerowitz.

00:02:50.000 Bob Meyerowitz.

00:02:52.000 Campbell McLaren.

00:02:53.000 Campbell McLaren was long gone.

00:02:55.000 By then, by 99?

00:02:56.000 Oh my god, yes.

00:02:57.000 He was there when I came around in 97. Yeah, well I think he hired you.

00:03:01.000 Yeah.

00:03:02.000 And he did some stuff.

00:03:03.000 He comes up with, I'm the co-creator of the UFC. You know what, let me just ask one question.

00:03:09.000 If you're the co-creator, how come you never owned one bit of it?

00:03:14.000 Doesn't make sense, does it?

00:03:16.000 Are you calling out Campbell McLaren on this podcast?

00:03:17.000 Hell yes!

00:03:18.000 How dare you?

00:03:19.000 You know what?

00:03:20.000 I'm tired.

00:03:20.000 Why lie?

00:03:21.000 He did things and I will absolutely give him credit for what he did because he was the reason that it actually made it to pay-per-view because Art Davey had gone to everyone.

00:03:34.000 Prime Ticket at the time was a pay-per-view provider because the pay-per-view world back then was about 15 million.

00:03:41.000 In the US. It's not like it is now.

00:03:43.000 You were limited, but Prime Ticket was one, HBO was another, and he had gone to all those, and they all turned, no, no, no, no, no.

00:03:51.000 And there was this one company, Semaphore Entertainment Group, out of New York, that did rock and roll shows, and they did one sporting event.

00:04:01.000 It was Martina Navratilova against Jimmy Connors in tennis.

00:04:05.000 Oh, wow.

00:04:06.000 I remember that.

00:04:07.000 That remake of the Billie Jean King, Bobby Riggs thing.

00:04:11.000 Wow.

00:04:12.000 I remember that.

00:04:13.000 That's crazy.

00:04:14.000 That was them?

00:04:14.000 I didn't know that was semaphore.

00:04:16.000 That was the only sporting thing they'd ever done before the UFC. But they were looking for something that they could rerun and make happen again and again.

00:04:26.000 And Campbell looked at what Art brought to him and said...

00:04:30.000 I think this could be that thing.

00:04:31.000 And Horian came up with the idea.

00:04:34.000 Horian Gracie, right?

00:04:35.000 Negative.

00:04:36.000 Not true.

00:04:36.000 He says he came up with the idea.

00:04:38.000 Are you calling out Horian Gracie and Camel McLaren all in the first five minutes?

00:04:44.000 Big John doesn't fuck around.

00:04:47.000 Horian had his thing.

00:04:50.000 I fell in love with what they did.

00:04:51.000 That's how I got involved.

00:04:53.000 Right.

00:04:54.000 But Horian, R. Davy went to Horian because he needed validity.

00:04:58.000 He needed somebody to give actual value and some credence to what he was trying to do.

00:05:06.000 Because he went to Horian off of a...

00:05:08.000 There was an article in Playboy magazine, Bad...

00:05:12.000 And it was about Horian and this family that would fight anybody.

00:05:17.000 When you're saying bad, it was a bad article?

00:05:19.000 No, that was called bad.

00:05:21.000 That was the actual title.

00:05:23.000 B-A-D across two pages.

00:05:25.000 Bad was the title.

00:05:27.000 I remember reading the article.

00:05:29.000 I don't remember that part about it.

00:05:30.000 But it was basically they were offering a lot of money to fight anybody, right?

00:05:34.000 Well, it was the whole thing of the $100,000 challenge.

00:05:37.000 But he didn't have $100,000.

00:05:39.000 Right.

00:05:39.000 And so it was, well, if you bring $100,000, I'll put up $100,000.

00:05:42.000 No one's bringing $100,000.

00:05:44.000 Right.

00:05:44.000 So it was just more like a publicity stunt.

00:05:47.000 Yeah.

00:05:48.000 And they did, obviously, they had the Gracie Challenge before that, and they did all the Gracie in action tapes that we had all seen.

00:05:54.000 Yep.

00:05:54.000 And you'd see all these karate masters get taken down and strangled.

00:05:57.000 You know, and that was the thing that I loved the fact.

00:06:01.000 You know what?

00:06:03.000 I can go through the whole thing of how I met Horian, but when I met him, there was never anything about, well, we would do this in that situation, but we can't do that because we'll hurt you.

00:06:14.000 And that was what happened in a lot of martial arts.

00:06:17.000 Oh, well, we can't do that because that'll hurt you.

00:06:19.000 That'll kill you.

00:06:20.000 And he was like, let's do it.

00:06:22.000 Every time.

00:06:23.000 And that's what I fell in love with.

00:06:25.000 It's like, hey, they're not phony.

00:06:26.000 They're real.

00:06:27.000 And the first time I ever did anything with them...

00:06:30.000 Hoist Gracie armbarred me and I went, how did you do that?

00:06:33.000 Right.

00:06:33.000 And I just fell in love with it.

00:06:35.000 A lot of people said that about Hoist Gracie.

00:06:37.000 How did you do that?

00:06:38.000 Yeah.

00:06:39.000 In those early days of the UFC, it was...

00:06:41.000 Boy, I mean, you want to talk about...

00:06:43.000 I mean, it really played it out perfectly because it really was...

00:06:47.000 The best version of explaining jujitsu.

00:06:51.000 Like, how do you show the effectiveness of jujitsu?

00:06:54.000 Well, here's what you do.

00:06:56.000 You lock some dudes in a cage with no rules.

00:06:59.000 Guy's bigger than him.

00:07:00.000 And he's wearing his gi.

00:07:02.000 So he's the only one that looks like what we think of as a martial artist, right?

00:07:06.000 And you get these guys...

00:07:08.000 Everyone else looks like big old street thugs.

00:07:09.000 They're jacked up on steroids.

00:07:11.000 They're giant.

00:07:12.000 And they're running after him.

00:07:13.000 And we always would think of...

00:07:16.000 Like Bruce Lee and these martial artists who, technique over size, and they would beat all these people, but in the real world, that shit didn't work.

00:07:23.000 Nope.

00:07:24.000 It just didn't work.

00:07:25.000 Bigger guys always fucked you up.

00:07:26.000 They were heavier, you hit them, it didn't work, you bounced off of them, they got you on the ground, they punched your face in.

00:07:32.000 But all of a sudden, there was this little guy, it wasn't little, but he was 175 pounds, in comparison to the rest of the people, he was fairly small, and he was tapping guys with triangles off his back and armbarring people, and everybody would tap.

00:07:45.000 Greatest infomercial ever.

00:07:47.000 It was the greatest.

00:07:48.000 Exactly.

00:07:49.000 It got me on board.

00:07:50.000 I mean, me and everybody else.

00:07:52.000 All these people like me who came from a striking background, I was like, holy shit.

00:07:57.000 This is crazy.

00:07:58.000 That's where I look at Horian was brilliant.

00:08:00.000 Because he listened to what Art said and goes, So whose idea was it?

00:08:06.000 It was Art's.

00:08:06.000 It was Art's idea to have a bunch of guys fight?

00:08:08.000 Absolutely.

00:08:10.000 100%.

00:08:11.000 Well, how much did Art own of it?

00:08:14.000 He owned, I want to say, basically 25%.

00:08:17.000 So when they sold it to Zufa, he got a piece of that?

00:08:21.000 Well, no.

00:08:22.000 He was gone long before that.

00:08:24.000 You've got to figure when...

00:08:26.000 There was two.

00:08:27.000 There was WOW Promotions, and WOW Promotions came from War of the Worlds because Art had named the whole competition War of the Worlds.

00:08:38.000 And then Semaphore Entertainment Group changed it to the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

00:08:42.000 I vaguely remember that whole thing.

00:08:44.000 The guy named Michael Abrams is the one that named it.

00:08:46.000 Wow.

00:08:47.000 So when Art had, with Horian, he gave Horian 25%, he had 25%, and Bob Meyerowitz owned 50% because of putting it on pay-per-view.

00:08:57.000 So you had WOW Promotions owning 50%, Semaphore Entertainment Group owning 50%, and actually WOW owned a little bit less because they had brought together investors.

00:09:08.000 And they were trying to get $250,000 and they got somewhere around $115,000, $112,000 of investment that they put up because that was going to be part of the money for the people that were competing in it.

00:09:20.000 It's crazy when you think about what it is now.

00:09:23.000 Because we're talking about 1993. What new sport can you think of other than MMA from 1993 that's now a huge global force?

00:09:34.000 I mean, it is something that everybody talks about.

00:09:36.000 Globally, nothing.

00:09:37.000 The one thing that you can look at and say, wow, that's really gained traction, American Ninja Warrior.

00:09:44.000 Oh, yeah.

00:09:44.000 But it's not a...

00:09:45.000 It's an athletic competition.

00:09:47.000 It's a show.

00:09:47.000 Yeah, it's a show.

00:09:48.000 Yeah, that definitely gained traction.

00:09:50.000 That's a fun fucking show.

00:09:52.000 It is, dude.

00:09:52.000 I didn't realize how fun that show was.

00:09:54.000 I never watched it until like a year ago.

00:09:56.000 Those people are incredible.

00:09:57.000 Oh, yeah.

00:09:58.000 As far as athletes and the ability to, I mean, just the grip strength.

00:10:04.000 Because you know.

00:10:05.000 Yeah.

00:10:05.000 Everyone thinks, oh, you can hang on a bar forever.

00:10:07.000 No.

00:10:07.000 Oh, you can't.

00:10:08.000 We learned in Fear Factor that girls are better at that than guys.

00:10:11.000 Less body weight.

00:10:12.000 Because they have less body weight.

00:10:12.000 I wouldn't have believed it.

00:10:14.000 We had this one guy on the show that was jacked.

00:10:17.000 Big, thick, old dude.

00:10:18.000 And there was girls that were like, you know, 125 pounds, 130 pounds.

00:10:22.000 And this guy was, he was toast at like a minute and 30 seconds.

00:10:26.000 He was done.

00:10:27.000 And these girls were hanging in there.

00:10:28.000 I was like, this is crazy.

00:10:29.000 This is really interesting.

00:10:30.000 Because I would think the girls' hands were weak.

00:10:32.000 I would think.

00:10:33.000 Nope, because the only difference that you can make it is you change the size of the bar and start making the bar bigger.

00:10:40.000 Now the man starts to have more of an advantage because of his hand being bigger.

00:10:43.000 Right, right, right.

00:10:44.000 That will take the advantage away from the girl because now she's actually starting to cup over and her finger strength starts to go before.

00:10:50.000 Right, yeah.

00:10:52.000 So MMA, who named it Mixed Martial Arts?

00:10:56.000 You know what, that's a whole story and you're gonna hear...

00:11:01.000 I heard it was you.

00:11:04.000 I give credit to Jeff Blatnick as far as...

00:11:07.000 Look, he didn't come up with the term.

00:11:09.000 Who did?

00:11:10.000 But the truth of...

00:11:12.000 And this is the first thing I can tell you.

00:11:14.000 I wrote a...

00:11:17.000 I had to do what's called a work permit for LAPD because I worked for LAPD back in 1993. 93 into 94. And it was because I was going to referee...

00:11:32.000 The second UFC, which was March 11th in 1994. And for me to actually work, the department has to allow me to.

00:11:40.000 I have to ask for permission, and then they have to grant that permission.

00:11:43.000 Was there a concern that it was too outrageous?

00:11:46.000 Well, that was part of the whole thing is I didn't want to say, oh, I got two guys going into a cage that are going to beat the shit out of each other.

00:11:52.000 Right.

00:11:53.000 So the first thing I put was a martial arts referee.

00:11:57.000 Okay.

00:11:57.000 And then they said, well, what kind of martial arts?

00:12:00.000 So I wrote mixed martial arts referee.

00:12:03.000 Now, I can tell you that that was in 92. Right at the end of 93 and beginning of 94. And where did you get that term?

00:12:10.000 I didn't get it from anywhere other than I'm sitting there trying to think.

00:12:13.000 But I do know that there was a columnist, a sports writer from the LA Times that wrote about the very first UFC and in his article wrote mixed martial arts.

00:12:25.000 Oh, so maybe it was him.

00:12:27.000 Well, you got John Peretti saying that he did it back in 1983. It's like, okay.

00:12:33.000 Well, if no one's saying it, it doesn't mean shit.

00:12:36.000 Right.

00:12:37.000 Okay?

00:12:37.000 So the truth of the matter is...

00:12:39.000 So Peretti might have said it in 83. He might have said it, but it didn't mean anything.

00:12:43.000 Right.

00:12:43.000 Because the fact of the matter is, and it doesn't matter what I wrote, what matters is when you joined it, When you joined the UFC, it was still considered no holds barred.

00:12:55.000 NHB. Yeah, NHB was what we called it.

00:12:58.000 And it was something that was, and this is probably part of my problem with Campbell McLaren, is back before UFC 2, they had him on Good Morning America with Jim Brown.

00:13:09.000 And you go back to that, and he came up with the line that you could win by knockout, tap out, or death.

00:13:16.000 Okay?

00:13:18.000 And for years after that, I was in court having that thrown in my face by the frickin' attorneys trying to put us down saying, isn't this what your company – no, that's not what my company says.

00:13:31.000 Human cockfighting.

00:13:32.000 That's what an idiot said.

00:13:33.000 Yeah.

00:13:34.000 Okay?

00:13:34.000 And so – He still, to this day, thinks he was magnificent with that.

00:13:39.000 But you look and you go...

00:13:40.000 Well, he might have been, in terms of buying and people buying it on pay-per-view.

00:13:44.000 It drew attention, there's no doubt.

00:13:47.000 But when we were trying to combat that, we were trying to get away from no-holds-barred, because no-holds-barred meant there's no rules, and there was rules.

00:13:55.000 But the thing is, it's still no-holds-barred.

00:13:58.000 I mean, you could do inside heel hooks, you could do the Imanari choke, you could do whatever you want.

00:14:03.000 You could do a lot.

00:14:04.000 In terms of holds.

00:14:05.000 That's true.

00:14:05.000 That's like it came from wrestling, right?

00:14:07.000 Absolutely.

00:14:08.000 That was it.

00:14:09.000 No holds barred.

00:14:09.000 In amateur wrestling, too, there was things you couldn't do, right?

00:14:12.000 There were certain headlocks you couldn't do in wrestling competitions.

00:14:16.000 You have to have an arm in instead of having just the neck.

00:14:18.000 Holds barred.

00:14:19.000 So no holds barred.

00:14:20.000 It's essentially still NHB. But back then, there was...

00:14:25.000 Was there eye-gouging ever?

00:14:27.000 No.

00:14:28.000 Never.

00:14:28.000 The very first set of rules for the first UFC. And this is, again, there's people saying, oh, I came up with the five-minute round.

00:14:35.000 It's like, you're a fucking liar.

00:14:36.000 I'm sorry.

00:14:37.000 You are calling everybody out today, John McCarthy.

00:14:39.000 Dude, you know what?

00:14:39.000 I'm tired of freaking sitting there having people lie.

00:14:43.000 Because there's a lot of people out there that come up with stuff and you go, really?

00:14:46.000 I can prove that wrong.

00:14:48.000 When you talk about five-minute rounds, the very first UFC had three rules.

00:14:54.000 No eye gouging, no biting, no groin strikes.

00:14:57.000 Everything else was allowed.

00:14:59.000 When did groin strikes come into the picture, though?

00:15:00.000 Because everybody remembers Keith Hackney and Joe Song.

00:15:03.000 Okay, hold on.

00:15:04.000 So that was UFC 1, and it was unlimited five-minute rounds.

00:15:11.000 Wasn't Keith Hackney, Joe Sond...

00:15:13.000 UFC 4. Yeah, okay, yeah.

00:15:16.000 So UFC 1 was unlimited.

00:15:20.000 Unlimited five-minute rounds.

00:15:22.000 But no fight went to five minutes.

00:15:23.000 The longest one was two minutes and 30-some seconds.

00:15:26.000 So after the first UFC... The semaphore looked and said, well, why are we having rounds when none of the fights are going that long anyways?

00:15:37.000 And so we're just going to take the round thing away so we don't have any stop in the action.

00:15:41.000 And then there was certain fighters, Zane Frazier being the main one, saying, if I could have kneaded the groin like I would in my system and what I do, it would have been a completely different fight.

00:15:52.000 And they went and said, okay, you can knead the groin.

00:15:55.000 You can hit to the groin.

00:15:56.000 No eye gouging, no biting.

00:15:58.000 That was UFC 2. That was the rules.

00:16:02.000 Wow.

00:16:03.000 So no eye gouging, no biting, and no time limits.

00:16:07.000 UFC 2. No time limits.

00:16:08.000 Wow.

00:16:09.000 It's just so crazy to think that this is a giant sport that's on Fox, it's on ESPN, it's a huge pay-per-view force, you hear about it all the time, you have a real group of experts wearing suits and ties discussing techniques.

00:16:23.000 Yeah.

00:16:24.000 I mean, when you sit down and watch the Fox panel and you see like Tyron Woodley and Michael Bisping and Paul Felder and everybody sitting there discussing technique and strategy and...

00:16:34.000 And they need to thank people from the past that got them there.

00:16:36.000 Yeah, I mean, you go back and watch some of the old school shit where the sumo guy got his tooth kicked into the stands.

00:16:42.000 First fight, that got me in my job.

00:16:43.000 Did it really?

00:16:44.000 Yeah, that fight right there, that's how I got my job.

00:16:46.000 What happened?

00:16:47.000 Well, Horian brought in two guys.

00:16:50.000 He brought in Elio Vigio from Brazil, who is famous as being the death squad cop down in Rio.

00:16:58.000 And he brought in a guy named João Bejeto.

00:17:01.000 And João Bejeto was the referee for that very first fight between Taylor Thule and Gerard Godot.

00:17:07.000 And Gerard Godot, who was that gentleman that he blinded a guy?

00:17:12.000 Oh, you're talking about Nakao in Japan.

00:17:13.000 Yeah, Yuki Nakao, right?

00:17:14.000 Yuki Nakao, yeah.

00:17:15.000 Who eventually went on to fight Hickson.

00:17:17.000 Yeah, and Hickson just grappled with him.

00:17:19.000 And Hickson wouldn't punch him because of his eye.

00:17:21.000 He knew his eye was all fucked up.

00:17:22.000 You know, there's been a couple of fights where I can tell you, you know, Hoist had a fight in, you go back and watch it, you'll see he doesn't punch somebody.

00:17:29.000 Yeah.

00:17:29.000 Because his father told him, don't punch him.

00:17:31.000 Yeah.

00:17:32.000 You know, and that's part of, that was part of, like, even the Gracie challenges, I can tell you back when, you know, even I did a couple.

00:17:38.000 It was, they would tell you, you know, Horian was big into, you want to come into the school, you want to do this?

00:17:43.000 If he didn't think the person had that much talent, he would put a student against him.

00:17:47.000 He would never put one of his brothers.

00:17:48.000 If he thought the guy was actually good, he'd put his brother.

00:17:51.000 Right.

00:17:51.000 And, you know, one of the things they would tell you is, hey...

00:17:55.000 Take him down, choke him out, armbar, don't hit him.

00:17:58.000 And afterwards they would go and tell the person, you know, hey, what do you think?

00:18:02.000 Do you believe?

00:18:04.000 And if the person wanted to try again, they would go hit him.

00:18:09.000 Beat him.

00:18:09.000 Now fuck around.

00:18:10.000 Hurt him.

00:18:10.000 Yep.

00:18:11.000 And that was it.

00:18:12.000 Okay, so you would know this then.

00:18:15.000 What is the story about Hickson not being in the first UFC? Because everybody knows, everybody that knows jujitsu knows that Hickson is widely regarded as the greatest of all time.

00:18:27.000 When it comes to the Gracies, when it comes to anybody of that era, Hickson was the fucking man.

00:18:32.000 Hands down, you ask anybody.

00:18:34.000 Still is the man.

00:18:35.000 But isn't it crazy?

00:18:35.000 He still is the man.

00:18:36.000 But if you ask anybody, no one said, nah, it was Ricardo Laborio, or nah, it was this guy.

00:18:42.000 Everybody went, Hickson.

00:18:44.000 How fucking good do you have to be?

00:18:47.000 Exactly.

00:18:47.000 Everybody agrees!

00:18:48.000 That's how lucky I was.

00:18:50.000 He was my instructor.

00:18:52.000 Isn't that crazy?

00:18:53.000 It's crazy because you look and you...

00:18:55.000 And this is the whole thing.

00:18:57.000 This is what people don't understand.

00:18:58.000 And I hear guys now and it's like, God damn, are you that stupid?

00:19:02.000 Because there's a...

00:19:03.000 Well, I think that so-and-so could beat him now.

00:19:05.000 And it's like...

00:19:06.000 He's 60 years old!

00:19:08.000 But not only that, it's a different world now.

00:19:10.000 Exactly.

00:19:10.000 What Hickson was, he was so advanced in comparison to everybody else physically.

00:19:15.000 Because he had figured out yoga, he had figured out breathing and meditation and physical strength.

00:19:22.000 He was incredibly flexible.

00:19:24.000 I'm sure you've seen those exercises he did on the balancing beam where he's standing on a balancing beam with one leg doing a full split in the air.

00:19:30.000 Holding his foot up in the air.

00:19:31.000 Full split.

00:19:32.000 And he had physical abilities that were just unparalleled.

00:19:37.000 He had a muscular endurance.

00:19:38.000 He used to do just an exercise class, okay, back, you know, 91 or so.

00:19:45.000 And he would do one-legged pikes, squatting down one leg, keep your leg out.

00:19:50.000 He would do that.

00:19:52.000 He had a muscular endurance.

00:19:53.000 He would do 50 exercises.

00:19:56.000 One-legged pikes.

00:19:57.000 I mean, and I was dying.

00:19:59.000 I mean, I was like...

00:20:00.000 That's incredible.

00:20:00.000 In a row?

00:20:01.000 In a row.

00:20:02.000 He would just keep going, and guys were falling out, and I was falling out, and everybody...

00:20:06.000 And he'd just keep going.

00:20:07.000 And you go...

00:20:09.000 What are you made of?

00:20:10.000 Well, he just had unbelievable discipline.

00:20:12.000 And also, like, just an understanding of his body, you know?

00:20:17.000 I mean...

00:20:18.000 His whole thing was...

00:20:20.000 He was so basic, Joe.

00:20:22.000 You know, his jiu-jitsu.

00:20:23.000 You look at guys now, and you look at, like, Eddie.

00:20:26.000 I love Eddie.

00:20:27.000 I love guys that are innovators.

00:20:29.000 And, you know, there's all kinds of people.

00:20:31.000 There's always going to be someone that's a naysayer.

00:20:34.000 I look at Eddie Bravo and go, man...

00:20:37.000 You are, you're the guy who, you know, and you say it perfect all the time where he's got his ninja, you know, the ninja geeks, you know, all these guys that are just geeky guys that are killers in jiu-jitsu now.

00:20:49.000 Yeah.

00:20:50.000 They're nerd assassins.

00:20:51.000 They are.

00:20:52.000 That's exactly what you, and it's the truth.

00:20:54.000 Yeah.

00:20:55.000 But Eddie's that guy, he looked at things just different than other guys, and how can I do this different?

00:21:01.000 Yeah.

00:21:02.000 That's how jiu-jitsu started as far as Brazilian jiu-jitsu with Elio.

00:21:06.000 Hickson was the guy, he was so basic as far as what he did, but he was so precise.

00:21:12.000 His ability to create a pressure, and the only guy that I've seen do it sometimes the same way as Damian Maia.

00:21:20.000 Yeah.

00:21:21.000 You know, it was Hickson could create a pressure that was just like, what is on top of him?

00:21:27.000 And when you say basic, some people think that's an insult.

00:21:31.000 No.

00:21:31.000 But Vinny Magalé said that about Minotauro.

00:21:34.000 He says jiu-jitsu is very basic.

00:21:36.000 And Minotauro got really upset.

00:21:38.000 And I wouldn't say that that is inaccurate, but it's not that Minotauro is arguably one of the greatest jiu-jitsu fighters of all time as far as MMA goes.

00:21:47.000 I mean, what he did for jiu-jitsu when he armbarred Bob Sapp, I mean, holy shit.

00:21:53.000 When he triangled Mark Coleman and all those different guys that he tapped out over in Pride, you got to see basic jiu-jitsu, meaning the things that everybody knows, like triangles, armbars, chokes.

00:22:04.000 Those are basics.

00:22:05.000 It doesn't mean it's like simple or dumb.

00:22:08.000 No!

00:22:09.000 Basics are everything.

00:22:12.000 And Krohn!

00:22:12.000 Kix and Son Krohn has got that same style of Jiu-Jitsu, but yet is a world champion with it.

00:22:17.000 I mean, there's something to be said for...

00:22:19.000 It's like that old Bruce Lee expression.

00:22:21.000 Don't fear a man that knows 10,000 kicks.

00:22:25.000 Fear a man who's practiced one kick 10,000 times.

00:22:28.000 Exactly.

00:22:28.000 Yeah.

00:22:28.000 There's something to having a precision of those techniques that just...

00:22:32.000 Everybody knows what an arm...

00:22:34.000 I mean, Hodger.

00:22:35.000 Hodger Gracie.

00:22:36.000 Same thing to this day.

00:22:37.000 He's basic.

00:22:38.000 Basic.

00:22:38.000 Basic style.

00:22:39.000 Crushes everybody.

00:22:40.000 One of my favorite jiu-jitsu matches to watch is Gary Tonin against Krohn Gracie.

00:22:46.000 Yeah, what a match that was.

00:22:48.000 Holy shit.

00:22:48.000 But it is the difference of the more...

00:22:51.000 This is a guy that masters basics to a guy that's trying all kinds of different things now and really going after him.

00:22:57.000 Look at Gordon Ryan.

00:22:57.000 Look at Craig Jones.

00:22:58.000 Look at these guys.

00:22:59.000 Look at what they're doing.

00:23:00.000 Yeah, this is the John Donaher effect, though.

00:23:03.000 It's like, well, Dean Lister and then John Donaher.

00:23:07.000 Dean Lister saying to John Donaher, why would you ignore 50% of the human body?

00:23:11.000 Dude, he said the same thing to me at one time.

00:23:12.000 It's like, whoa.

00:23:14.000 Damn.

00:23:15.000 Why would you?

00:23:15.000 I never thought of that.

00:23:16.000 Isn't that crazy?

00:23:17.000 But isn't it crazy that one little statement like that can change jiu-jitsu?

00:23:21.000 Because if you look at what's going on now, leg locks are just out of control now.

00:23:26.000 Everybody's leg locking people.

00:23:27.000 And you're watching the progression of guys from leg locking people in jiu-jitsu Two leg-locking people now in MMA. Dylan Danis the other day with that footlock.

00:23:39.000 Dylan Danis with a toehold.

00:23:40.000 He does a toehold.

00:23:41.000 You watch Neiman Gracie.

00:23:43.000 He had it.

00:23:44.000 You watch him.

00:23:44.000 He's controlling both legs.

00:23:45.000 You go, oh, you got a problem.

00:23:47.000 He didn't get it.

00:23:48.000 He made a mistake in it.

00:23:49.000 And that's, hey, we all make a mistake.

00:23:51.000 And I didn't catch that when I should have.

00:23:53.000 But that control, those two legs together like that, it's crazy to watch.

00:23:56.000 And you see fighters not understanding how to get themselves out.

00:23:59.000 Yep, yep.

00:24:00.000 And so there's your next progression.

00:24:02.000 You better learn that.

00:24:03.000 If you don't know that, you're going to be in trouble.

00:24:06.000 And that is the Danaher effect.

00:24:07.000 He is a genius.

00:24:09.000 It's just fascinating, too.

00:24:11.000 But these techniques that we're talking about, there's guys, though, that can even shut those down.

00:24:17.000 I mean, guys who have those understanding of the basics that can shut...

00:24:20.000 I mean, I would really like to see Hodger...

00:24:22.000 I mean, I know Hodger's retiring, which is unfortunate.

00:24:25.000 I mean, fortunate and unfortunate.

00:24:26.000 I get it.

00:24:27.000 He's arguably one of the greatest grapplers of all time.

00:24:30.000 Without a doubt, right?

00:24:32.000 And I would like to see him, though, against like a Gordon Ryan.

00:24:35.000 Wouldn't you want to see that?

00:24:36.000 Of course!

00:24:37.000 I mean, they're both big guys.

00:24:39.000 They're both very strong.

00:24:40.000 And Hodger with that extreme basic game, the old school style.

00:24:44.000 So who are you going to say would win it?

00:24:46.000 I would never say.

00:24:47.000 Who the fuck knows?

00:24:48.000 Who the fuck knows?

00:24:49.000 I want to see it.

00:24:50.000 That's the whole point.

00:24:51.000 And you get all these, oh, so-and-so would win.

00:24:54.000 You know what?

00:24:54.000 That's why I always say you fight the fight.

00:24:56.000 I know some leg lock guys that went and trained with Braulio Estima, and he shut that shit down.

00:25:00.000 And they were like, whoa.

00:25:02.000 And they were like, okay, there's something to be said for that intense pressure style.

00:25:07.000 That you cannot get those things that you used to do.

00:25:10.000 That's where I'm really interested in.

00:25:13.000 People don't realize how good Rafael Lovato Jr. is.

00:25:17.000 How could you not?

00:25:19.000 How could you not?

00:25:20.000 Because they're not guys that actually live in the jiu-jitsu world.

00:25:23.000 They live only in the MMA world.

00:25:24.000 And he fights for Bellator.

00:25:26.000 He can't be any good.

00:25:27.000 He's one of the best in the world.

00:25:29.000 Oh my god.

00:25:30.000 And Gerald Harris is a tough guy.

00:25:32.000 He's a tough guy.

00:25:33.000 He's a very strong, very good wrestler.

00:25:35.000 He's now 25-6.

00:25:38.000 He has beaten some good people.

00:25:39.000 He's got four slam KOs.

00:25:42.000 He is a monster in certain areas of the fight.

00:25:45.000 And you look and you go...

00:25:47.000 It was the way that Rafael switched that arm.

00:25:51.000 And just the control of the legs.

00:25:53.000 Because you see the leg, his head's getting out.

00:25:54.000 He brings that leg over.

00:25:55.000 You look and you go...

00:25:57.000 Do you realize how good that is?

00:25:59.000 Yeah.

00:25:59.000 Well, for a guy like you who's a black belt in jiu-jitsu, you see that.

00:26:02.000 That's like you're watching art.

00:26:03.000 It is.

00:26:03.000 You're watching art.

00:26:04.000 And I tell people all the time, look it, yeah, I used to be able to roll.

00:26:09.000 I can't roll with that guy.

00:26:10.000 That dude is world class.

00:26:12.000 Yeah, there's a level of like, I was trying to explain this to someone who's like, well, you're a black belt, too.

00:26:17.000 I'm like, that guy would treat me like a white belt, like I'm a blue belt, like I'm just a beginner.

00:26:21.000 And there's nothing wrong with saying that.

00:26:23.000 Well, it's a fact.

00:26:24.000 And that's the whole thing.

00:26:25.000 It's like, why are you going to sit there and try to say, I could roll it?

00:26:28.000 No.

00:26:29.000 There's facts.

00:26:30.000 There's facts in this world.

00:26:32.000 It is what it is.

00:26:32.000 Like, if you don't know jujitsu and you're my size, I'm going to choke the shit out of you.

00:26:36.000 Oh, you're going to crush them.

00:26:36.000 You don't have a chance.

00:26:37.000 Yeah.

00:26:37.000 But if you're a Marcelo Garcia, you could be 30 pounds lighter than me, and I'm fucked.

00:26:41.000 I have zero chance.

00:26:42.000 You have to explain this to me.

00:26:43.000 You have no chance.

00:26:44.000 I'm like, listen to me.

00:26:45.000 I am defending the entire time.

00:26:47.000 Yeah, I got zero chance.

00:26:48.000 I'm defending up until he gets me.

00:26:50.000 It's not a matter of if he's going to get me.

00:26:52.000 It's when is he going to get me.

00:26:53.000 It's just a matter of when does it happen.

00:26:55.000 When do I make that mistake that he goes...

00:26:56.000 Yeah, when you slap hands, you're admitting you're a victim.

00:26:59.000 Like, I'm a victim.

00:27:01.000 Let's just try to keep me from being a victim as long as I can.

00:27:04.000 There's just levels.

00:27:05.000 And when you roll with a guy like Jean-Jacques Machado or any high-level person, you feel that extreme precision and technique.

00:27:14.000 It's amazing to feel and experience because from the outside, looking in, if you don't know jiu-jitsu, you can't see it.

00:27:21.000 You don't know what you're looking at.

00:27:23.000 It's like when you say John Jock, you feel from the moment you start, I'm in danger.

00:27:28.000 Yeah, there's no space.

00:27:29.000 And then finally you'll get to one point where you can go, you can lock and you can pinch down and people are like...

00:27:36.000 Do something.

00:27:37.000 It's like, dude, I am doing something.

00:27:38.000 I am surviving.

00:27:39.000 I had dinner with Hickson once, and Hickson and Krohn, and then we went back to the house.

00:27:44.000 It was amazing.

00:27:45.000 Went back to the house, and he put on fights, and he was breaking down fights for me, and talking about errors people were making, and he was talking about space.

00:27:54.000 That's what he kept talking about.

00:27:55.000 Look at all this space.

00:27:56.000 Everything.

00:27:57.000 Look at all this space between.

00:27:58.000 All this movement and gap.

00:28:00.000 Space equals escape.

00:28:01.000 Yeah.

00:28:02.000 And then you'd watch him, and there was the Coliseum fight.

00:28:07.000 Funaki.

00:28:07.000 Yeah, when he fought Funaki.

00:28:08.000 And that was his last fight.

00:28:09.000 And when he fought Funaki, you see this just crushing game where he just gets a hold.

00:28:15.000 I mean, once he's got you, you're not...

00:28:17.000 And he explained it to me.

00:28:18.000 I'll never forget this.

00:28:19.000 He goes, we start at a neutral point.

00:28:21.000 We start at zero.

00:28:23.000 He goes, and when we go to one, we're not going back to zero.

00:28:26.000 We're going to two, and then to three, and then to checkmate.

00:28:30.000 He's like, we're not going backwards.

00:28:32.000 We're going forwards.

00:28:33.000 And you're like, Jesus, I gotta get out of this house!

00:28:36.000 I'm scared!

00:28:37.000 I want to run home!

00:28:38.000 But you go and you watch that, and people don't realize how good Funaki actually was.

00:28:43.000 Funaki was a beast.

00:28:44.000 He was the big test for Hickson, and he crushed Hickson's orbital.

00:28:48.000 Remember?

00:28:48.000 Yeah, with that punch.

00:28:49.000 His eye was swollen up.

00:28:50.000 Absolutely broke it.

00:28:50.000 Broke his orbital.

00:28:51.000 Broke his orbital.

00:28:52.000 I mean, he was a real threat.

00:28:52.000 That's what one punch can do.

00:28:54.000 And Funaki was a real threat, and Hickson put him to sleep.

00:28:57.000 Funaki was a guy, as far as grappling in Japan, he, you can go on, and again, it's that size thing, because he was a good size 200 and...

00:29:07.000 10 to 15 pound guy.

00:29:09.000 Solid, jacked.

00:29:10.000 Jacked and a good grappler who, you know, you can go back and look at all the guys from the past, you know, the Satos and everybody that were phenomenal.

00:29:18.000 They all said, well, no one can beat him here.

00:29:20.000 You know, he was that good.

00:29:22.000 And Hickson destroyed him as far as once it hit the ground.

00:29:25.000 But that's like, it was almost like, you know, I was talking with Jay Glazer before the Dylan Dennis fight.

00:29:31.000 And Dylan is in his, you know, this is his first fight.

00:29:33.000 And yes, he's saying a lot of stuff.

00:29:35.000 I love that.

00:29:36.000 Hey, you've got to have confidence in yourself, okay?

00:29:38.000 And you've got to put it out there.

00:29:40.000 But Jay has asked me, he goes, what can I say?

00:29:43.000 I said, this is what you can say about him.

00:29:45.000 It is his first fight.

00:29:46.000 I go, but if he gets his hands around his opponent and they do this, it's over.

00:29:54.000 He will not get out.

00:29:55.000 His opponent will not survive.

00:29:57.000 He is that good on the ground.

00:30:02.000 It's so hard to get people to realize how good certain people are.

00:30:11.000 Obviously, if you get hit and your brain's not working, because your brain is everything, that can be taken away to a point from you.

00:30:18.000 But if your brain is there and you have that submission ability, you're always dangerous.

00:30:23.000 Yeah, it's just, to me, the most enjoyable thing to watch because it's so complex.

00:30:32.000 Because there's so many variables and it's so interesting.

00:30:34.000 There's so much going on in a fight.

00:30:36.000 There's just so much happening.

00:30:38.000 So many possibilities, you know?

00:30:40.000 And for you as a referee, I mean, you've had, I mean, I always say I had the best seat in the house next to you.

00:30:46.000 Because I did.

00:30:47.000 I never got to sit down.

00:30:48.000 Never.

00:30:49.000 It's better.

00:30:50.000 You could get around.

00:30:50.000 You were looking at the chokes.

00:30:52.000 I got to move to all the best places.

00:30:53.000 You were looking at a choke from a foot away.

00:30:55.000 I mean, you were there for all of it, man.

00:30:58.000 You got to be there.

00:30:59.000 I mean, you're the only one, really the only one to truly experience those fights without some sort of a barrier in between them.

00:31:07.000 True.

00:31:07.000 I'm going to go back real quick for you.

00:31:10.000 Okay.

00:31:10.000 So it goes.

00:31:12.000 How did Hickson not get to fight in UFC 1?

00:31:14.000 That was the question, and we didn't answer it.

00:31:16.000 The question, yeah.

00:31:17.000 We have two questions to answer.

00:31:18.000 This is 12-6 elbow.

00:31:20.000 We'll go back to that.

00:31:20.000 We'll go to that one, too.

00:31:21.000 But let's go to this.

00:31:22.000 Why wasn't Hickson in...

00:31:25.000 Because Hickson was the champion of the family.

00:31:27.000 Oh, no doubt.

00:31:28.000 By far.

00:31:28.000 And even back then, Hoist came out in articles and said, my brother Hickson is 10 times better than me.

00:31:33.000 Always said that.

00:31:34.000 And he wasn't lying.

00:31:35.000 Yeah, he said, I will go to train tonight and my brother will tap me a hundred times.

00:31:38.000 Yep.

00:31:39.000 You're so good at that.

00:31:42.000 But what truly happened was, again, and I say, look at the first UFC for Horian.

00:31:48.000 Horian looked at this entire thing.

00:31:50.000 People have to understand how much time Horian had spent trying to get people to understand grappling is an art form.

00:32:01.000 That taking somebody down and putting them into a place where they are unaware of what can happen to them, unknowledgeable, is a way for you to be safe in a fight, taking kinetic energy off of their plate and putting you in a place where you could do what you do.

00:32:15.000 And he was trying to sell this the whole time.

00:32:18.000 Then he meets Art Davey.

00:32:20.000 Art Davey is the one that helps put together the Gracie in Action tapes.

00:32:23.000 And through that marketing scheme, Horian sees, this guy can make me money.

00:32:28.000 And so then he does.

00:32:29.000 He says, okay, what are you talking about with your fighting thing?

00:32:32.000 And no doubt Hickson is the best one in the family, but Hickson at that time is training people out of Torrance.

00:32:38.000 And then he opens up his own studio in West LA. Ah, Pico.

00:32:43.000 Yes.

00:32:44.000 And when he opened up his studio in West LA, Horian went, whoop, you're not going to, the person that is going to be fighting in this is going to be representing my school, right?

00:32:55.000 And that's how Hoist got it.

00:32:56.000 So that was always the rumors that he couldn't control Hickson.

00:33:00.000 Couldn't.

00:33:00.000 Yeah.

00:33:01.000 The other rumor was, there was two rumors.

00:33:03.000 One that he couldn't control Hickson, and the other one was that Hickson was physically very impressive.

00:33:10.000 That's such a lie.

00:33:11.000 Well, it's a lie.

00:33:12.000 Well, let me just fill the sentence.

00:33:15.000 The sentence was that because he was physically impressive, it wouldn't be as good an advertisement for jiu-jitsu because Hoist was long and thin and he wasn't the typical.

00:33:24.000 But Hickson, when you looked at him with his shirt off, he had a six-pack and big muscles, he looked like a physically impressive guy.

00:33:31.000 But Hickson was 10 pounds heavier than Hoyce.

00:33:34.000 Yeah.

00:33:35.000 Okay, a little bit shorter.

00:33:36.000 Yeah.

00:33:36.000 Okay, he's shorter than Hoyce, but if he would have worn the gi, what are you going to see anyways?

00:33:42.000 Right.

00:33:42.000 Nothing.

00:33:43.000 Okay, looks like a guy in a gi.

00:33:47.000 That whole thing of Horian, marketing-wise, said, oh, it was because Hickson is this big guy.

00:33:52.000 I wanted it to be the small guy.

00:33:54.000 Oh, so that was Horian saying that?

00:33:54.000 Oh, yeah.

00:33:55.000 Horian's the one that came out with that.

00:33:56.000 So he said that just because he needed an excuse for why he couldn't control Hickson.

00:34:00.000 Yep.

00:34:01.000 So us as jiu-jitsu practitioners, I started doing jiu-jitsu in 96 with Hickson.

00:34:07.000 I started Hickson School on Pico.

00:34:09.000 Yeah, on Pico.

00:34:10.000 Yeah, Louis Heredia, getting my first class.

00:34:12.000 There you go.

00:34:13.000 But then I took a couple classes there, but then I found out that Carlson Glaze Gracie's was closer to my house.

00:34:18.000 West L.A. I didn't know jack shit.

00:34:20.000 No, his was on Hawthorne, right off of La Cienega.

00:34:25.000 So it was right down the street from the Comedy Store.

00:34:27.000 So I was like, well, this is near where I live.

00:34:29.000 And I was like, Gracie is Gracie.

00:34:31.000 I didn't know there was any difference between the two of them.

00:34:33.000 And Carlson Gracie was always on John Peretti's show, when John Peretti had that extreme, what was it, Extreme Combat?

00:34:39.000 Extreme Challenge.

00:34:40.000 Yeah, Battlecade.

00:34:41.000 Battlecade, right.

00:34:42.000 And so I said, well, I'll just go train here.

00:34:44.000 So I stopped training with literally the greatest of all time, you know, because I didn't know any better.

00:34:49.000 But you went to training with the guy that would hold nothing back.

00:34:54.000 Yeah.

00:34:54.000 That would teach you everything.

00:34:56.000 Well, also, I went there while Vitor was still Victor.

00:35:00.000 Yeah.

00:35:00.000 He was Victor Gracie.

00:35:02.000 They called him Victor Gracie.

00:35:04.000 In fact, when I first interviewed, I called him Victor a couple times, because we had always called him Victor.

00:35:08.000 And they were calling him Victor Gracie, but he was getting sued by Horian, was saying that you can't use the Gracie name.

00:35:15.000 And so he had to stop calling himself Gracie, and he was going with Belfort, and Mario Sperry was there.

00:35:20.000 There was like, I mean, that was, Carlos Baheto was there.

00:35:24.000 Carlos, great guy.

00:35:25.000 Yeah, but it was a fucking crazy place to be.

00:35:27.000 Oh, yeah?

00:35:28.000 If you think about the history of Jiu-Jitsu and of MMA, I mean, it was an amazing time.

00:35:32.000 Have you ever been to his original school in Rio?

00:35:36.000 No.

00:35:36.000 No, I haven't.

00:35:37.000 Oh my God, man.

00:35:38.000 It's like you look and it's a dungeon.

00:35:40.000 It's an upstairs dungeon.

00:35:42.000 But, I mean, you look and you go, oh my God, all these guys learning.

00:35:47.000 It's a room.

00:35:48.000 It's actually this size.

00:35:50.000 Wow.

00:35:50.000 This size right here.

00:35:51.000 And you think about the guys that he had there and what he taught.

00:35:55.000 Armory Batesh.

00:35:55.000 Armory Batesh, Ricardo Laborio, Baheto, Alan Gauche, all these guys.

00:36:02.000 And you go...

00:36:04.000 And the one thing out of all of them, because at least I've been lucky enough to be able to know all of them and talk to them and train with a lot of them, and all of them, man, Carlson Gracie, I love him.

00:36:17.000 He's my father.

00:36:18.000 He never held anything back from me.

00:36:20.000 And you got to look and you go...

00:36:22.000 That was the thing, because I remember I had some friends that went to Torrance, and right after Hoist tapped out Dan Severn with a triangle, they wanted to learn the triangle.

00:36:31.000 And they were saying, no, you're not ready for that yet.

00:36:33.000 You're not ready for that.

00:36:35.000 Not ready.

00:36:35.000 And Mario Sperry was teaching us right off the bat.

00:36:38.000 Oh, yeah.

00:36:38.000 Mario Sperry's explaining, I'll never forget this, explaining how he used to practice triangles with his girlfriend.

00:36:43.000 He used to make his girlfriend sit there, and he would just rotate on her.

00:36:47.000 Just left triangle, right triangle, left triangle, right triangle.

00:36:50.000 And he would just practice on her.

00:36:53.000 That's a good relationship right there.

00:36:54.000 Wow, it's a good woman.

00:36:55.000 I'll tell you, because my wife would go...

00:36:57.000 Fuck you.

00:36:58.000 Exactly.

00:36:59.000 Yeah, a good woman lets you sync up a triangle on her over and over and over again.

00:37:04.000 Yeah, he would just rotate his hips.

00:37:06.000 He was saying, if you can get someone, that's the best way to work on your triangle.

00:37:08.000 He was saying, if you can get someone, it's really just about doing those numbers over and over and over and over again.

00:37:13.000 So he was teaching us that right off the bat.

00:37:15.000 So that is a thing about Carlson.

00:37:17.000 But...

00:37:18.000 That place went under.

00:37:19.000 It went under somewhere around 98, and that's when I moved over to John Jock, and I started training at John Jocks since 98. You didn't miss a beat there, though.

00:37:27.000 No.

00:37:27.000 Got lucky, too.

00:37:29.000 But that was the time.

00:37:30.000 I had just started to understand who John Jock was, but everybody wanted that Gracie name, which is why a lot of guys went with Gracie as their last name, even though it wasn't their last name.

00:37:43.000 Still to this day.

00:37:44.000 To this day.

00:37:44.000 Even Hodger.

00:37:44.000 Hodger's last name, it's not his mom's last name.

00:37:47.000 Same with Neiman.

00:37:48.000 Yeah.

00:37:48.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:37:49.000 You know what Neiman's last name is?

00:37:50.000 What is it?

00:37:51.000 Strombowski.

00:37:51.000 Oh.

00:37:52.000 What's wrong with that?

00:37:54.000 It's weird that that's still a thing.

00:37:55.000 That's his dad's last name, but his mom comes from the Gracie side.

00:37:58.000 But it's crazy that, I mean, the dad must be like, what in the fuck?

00:38:02.000 What's my name?

00:38:03.000 What's my name, kid?

00:38:05.000 That was always a thing.

00:38:07.000 But then I had started to understand jujitsu then.

00:38:10.000 I'd been doing it for a little while.

00:38:12.000 And then everybody had heard about Jean-Jacques Machado and Heegan Machado and the brothers and John.

00:38:18.000 And it was one of those things.

00:38:20.000 And we knew that, okay, this is another family that's also like an elite, world-class family.

00:38:25.000 And then we started training.

00:38:26.000 And there was people saying at the time, oh, the Machados aren't as good as the Gracies.

00:38:29.000 You go, oh, yes, they are.

00:38:31.000 They're the same.

00:38:32.000 Well, there's just high-level jiu-jitsu, right?

00:38:36.000 There's so much of it today.

00:38:38.000 And John Jock is the guy.

00:38:39.000 You look at all of them, because if you're going to go and you're going to say, well, who was the best if they trained between each other?

00:38:48.000 It was Hegan.

00:38:49.000 He was a monster.

00:38:50.000 Big fella.

00:38:51.000 Because he was so big, so strong, and his jiu-jitsu was really freaking good.

00:38:55.000 Well, there's a great match between Hegan and Hickson.

00:38:58.000 Absolutely.

00:38:58.000 You can still watch black and white.

00:39:00.000 Yeah.

00:39:00.000 Fucking wild shit from the 80s.

00:39:02.000 Yeah.

00:39:03.000 Hegan's doing good for a lot of that sucker.

00:39:05.000 But you look at the guy that technically...

00:39:09.000 How just different he was than the rest.

00:39:11.000 It was John Jock.

00:39:13.000 Well, one of the things is that John Jock was born with a deformity where he only has a thumb on one hand.

00:39:18.000 So his left hand doesn't have any fingers.

00:39:20.000 So because of that, a lot of people credit John Jock with a lot of the over hooks and under hooks that really tend to dominate no-gi grappling.

00:39:28.000 Because John Jock was not grabbing the gi with that left hand.

00:39:31.000 Look at him in ADCC. Yes.

00:39:34.000 Look at what he's doing and look what he can't grab, but he was taking and putting his hands in waves.

00:39:39.000 And you look and you go, it is.

00:39:41.000 Look at what he's doing.

00:39:42.000 All of those holds that he's grabbing and controlling that person with that instead of the gi.

00:39:47.000 Yeah.

00:39:47.000 That's what we use today.

00:39:48.000 Well, that's where Eddie learned a lot of his technique.

00:39:53.000 Obviously, Eddie's a black belt under Jean-Jacques, but he learned a lot of his no-gi principles from Jean-Jacques because Jean-Jacques couldn't rely on the gi.

00:40:00.000 We always talked about this.

00:40:02.000 One of the things that happens to these gi guys when they come over to MMA, if they rely too much on the gi, they have like half their game.

00:40:09.000 Like maybe half their game.

00:40:11.000 It's one of those things that back in the day, it was always, oh, you must train in the gi.

00:40:16.000 You gotta train in the game.

00:40:17.000 If you want to be good, bullshit.

00:40:18.000 It's not true.

00:40:19.000 Absolutely not.

00:40:19.000 Not true at all.

00:40:20.000 Eddie used to say this.

00:40:20.000 He's like, if you want to get good at tennis, do you play racquetball?

00:40:23.000 Well, then it's exactly...

00:40:24.000 And this is the point when I talk about Eddie, I go...

00:40:26.000 You know, Eddie was saying that long before anybody else.

00:40:29.000 He's like, I don't believe that you have to train the gi.

00:40:31.000 You have to train, and it's like, oh no, to learn these.

00:40:34.000 And it's like, most of those don't work if they're not wearing the gi.

00:40:37.000 There's some things about the gi that are really good.

00:40:40.000 Sure.

00:40:41.000 Defense.

00:40:41.000 You have to have real defense with the gi.

00:40:43.000 You have to really understand position.

00:40:45.000 You can't just muscle out of shit.

00:40:46.000 Well, that's the big difference is the gi takes away that explosion in power.

00:40:52.000 And slipperiness.

00:40:53.000 And makes you technically have to do it right.

00:40:56.000 Yes.

00:40:56.000 There's definitely benefits to the game.

00:40:58.000 Oh, yeah.

00:40:58.000 And it's also great for old guys.

00:41:00.000 You can grab ahold of shit and cling and hang on.

00:41:04.000 That's all you do.

00:41:05.000 You had some serious neck injuries, right?

00:41:08.000 Yeah.

00:41:08.000 And you're all fused up now, right?

00:41:10.000 Oh, I'm a mess.

00:41:11.000 What did they do to you?

00:41:12.000 Well, about, I'll say four years ago, I had two discs replaced because it was actually the disc was...

00:41:22.000 Broken and it was pressing in on my spinal cord and I had only like about an eighth of an inch between it touching the other side.

00:41:29.000 No, no, no.

00:41:30.000 My spinal cord touching the other side.

00:41:32.000 Oh.

00:41:33.000 Which would have been me going and falling down and not getting back up.

00:41:37.000 Whoa.

00:41:37.000 So they took and they relieved the pressure, took that out and put two fake discs and put this cage around it.

00:41:46.000 Because I didn't want to be fused.

00:41:47.000 I was panicked about, look it, I need to be able to move my neck.

00:41:51.000 Even for refereeing, it was even more past the jiu-jitsu, but I wanted to still be able to do things and rolling and stuff.

00:41:58.000 And then I got hurt in July of last year.

00:42:02.000 Bad.

00:42:03.000 And it wasn't like someone meant to do it.

00:42:06.000 I was training somebody and having them put a darts choke on me.

00:42:11.000 It was no big deal.

00:42:12.000 But they were doing it wrong as I'm watching them.

00:42:14.000 So I get down and say, look, put it on me.

00:42:15.000 Okay, here, put this here.

00:42:17.000 No, no, I want your weight here.

00:42:18.000 All right, start putting pressure down.

00:42:20.000 And I was probably in it for 90 seconds.

00:42:23.000 Because I'm talking through it, and I'm waiting for them to increase the pressure, increase it, make it tighter.

00:42:28.000 And finally it gets to where, hey, it's tight, okay.

00:42:30.000 And I tap, and I said, good, all right, you got it.

00:42:32.000 And I didn't feel anything.

00:42:34.000 But that broke the five through seven in my disc and pushed them out.

00:42:39.000 The next day I had...

00:42:41.000 So you didn't feel it while it was happening?

00:42:42.000 I did not feel it when it happened.

00:42:43.000 That's the scary shit about neck injuries.

00:42:45.000 It is.

00:42:46.000 It's like you don't think you really had an injury because you're like, I don't remember anything happening.

00:42:50.000 There was no pain.

00:42:51.000 Yeah.

00:42:52.000 I remember cracking when they're putting it on because my neck is getting...

00:42:57.000 But that's normal.

00:42:58.000 Yeah.

00:42:58.000 And so it was like, that's no big deal.

00:43:00.000 Right.

00:43:01.000 You're used to it.

00:43:01.000 And man, the next day I had this fire going down my arm into my finger that didn't stop.

00:43:09.000 And it was like...

00:43:10.000 Nerve pain.

00:43:11.000 Oh, yeah.

00:43:12.000 Yeah.

00:43:12.000 And, I mean, it was...

00:43:14.000 If you've ever had a stinger from football or smashing your head into something and you get that fire that goes down...

00:43:20.000 And it did not...

00:43:21.000 I mean, from that point, I didn't sleep.

00:43:24.000 I was in trouble.

00:43:25.000 I ended up going and...

00:43:27.000 I go and they say, you've crushed this.

00:43:30.000 And so they went and looked, and when they were supposed to do the surgery, they were going to fuse from 5 to 7. I said, alright, whatever.

00:43:37.000 And they do that while my body itself fused around the cage that they'd put the disc in.

00:43:43.000 So I'm fused from 3 down to 7 now.

00:43:46.000 So it's all good.

00:43:48.000 I can move a little bit.

00:43:49.000 I can't move back.

00:43:51.000 I can turn it to the sides, though.

00:43:52.000 So I'm good.

00:43:53.000 And so three, where does that start?

00:43:55.000 It starts at the neck, at the top of the head?

00:43:58.000 Yep, right.

00:43:59.000 Just two down off of where your head and your neck attach.

00:44:02.000 They're doing a lot of those artificial discs.

00:44:04.000 Eddie's got one now.

00:44:05.000 He's got an artificial titanium moving disc.

00:44:09.000 Yeah, I got two of those.

00:44:09.000 It's in his lower back.

00:44:10.000 You got those too.

00:44:11.000 I got those.

00:44:12.000 Are those wrapped up in the cage or no?

00:44:13.000 That's wrapped up in that cage, which is now fused.

00:44:15.000 So they're not doing anything except they're keeping me from getting shorter again.

00:44:19.000 Jesus Christ.

00:44:20.000 Yeah, Eddie gained an inch.

00:44:21.000 There you go, man.

00:44:21.000 We went from 5'8 to 5'9.

00:44:22.000 You will!

00:44:23.000 It's not bad.

00:44:24.000 Because, man, I'll tell you what, you know...

00:44:26.000 It's everything with grappling and jujitsu.

00:44:29.000 Smushes those discs.

00:44:29.000 It smushes you.

00:44:30.000 You get shorter.

00:44:31.000 I've gotten a lot shorter.

00:44:32.000 Yeah, it's definitely, and people say things like disc degeneration disease.

00:44:37.000 I'm like, slow down.

00:44:38.000 You're getting injured, okay?

00:44:40.000 You're getting injured over and over and over again, and your discs are getting compressed, and it's not a coincidence that this disc-degenerating disease is happening with grapplers in the exact same spots, lower back and the neck, and it's all from getting cranked on.

00:44:51.000 It is.

00:44:52.000 It's from getting guillotined and darsed and fighting your way out of chokes and from your lower back, from being in the guard.

00:44:58.000 There's just so much going on.

00:45:00.000 Guys stacking you up and pushing.

00:45:01.000 Yep.

00:45:02.000 There's so much going on with your back.

00:45:04.000 And very few people do anything to strengthen their back.

00:45:08.000 I implore people that are doing jujitsu, I want you to look at two things.

00:45:11.000 Three things.

00:45:12.000 One, the reverse hyper machine.

00:45:15.000 That's that Louis Simmons machine.

00:45:16.000 I'm sure you know about that.

00:45:18.000 Yep.

00:45:18.000 That fucking thing is so good.

00:45:20.000 Dr. Neil Reardon, the stem cell doctor that I had on before, he was having some back issues.

00:45:24.000 He just sent me a picture of one of them that he has now in his place after he came here and saw mine.

00:45:30.000 He got one of those reverse hypers, put it in his office, and he's like, Jesus Christ, this thing has changed my body.

00:45:35.000 It's like changed my back.

00:45:36.000 It's helped me so much.

00:45:37.000 It's incredible.

00:45:37.000 That thing's amazing.

00:45:39.000 And then there's a thing called the iron neck.

00:45:41.000 Iron Neck, which is just a phenomenal training tool for your neck.

00:45:44.000 Gives you more range of motion and strengthens your neck.

00:45:48.000 So many guys just don't do that.

00:45:50.000 You just train.

00:45:51.000 You just always train.

00:45:53.000 You gotta treat your body like you're in the pit stop and you're in a fucking NASCAR crew.

00:45:58.000 And you gotta fix stuff and replace stuff and make sure everything's tuned up and tightened up.

00:46:03.000 Treat your body like you gotta strengthen all that shit.

00:46:05.000 Question, were you that way when you were 25, though?

00:46:08.000 No, I was a retard.

00:46:09.000 There you go, that's me.

00:46:09.000 I'm stupid still.

00:46:10.000 I can't believe how stupid I am.

00:46:12.000 It's amazing I've gotten so far.

00:46:13.000 That's the differences when, you know, I don't care.

00:46:17.000 You think you're invulnerable.

00:46:19.000 Absolutely.

00:46:20.000 No one can do anything to you.

00:46:22.000 You can't be beat.

00:46:24.000 You can put up with anything.

00:46:26.000 Yep.

00:46:26.000 And you get injured and you just go, fuck it, who cares?

00:46:29.000 I'll just train the other side.

00:46:30.000 I'll just go light.

00:46:32.000 You never go light.

00:46:33.000 Yeah.

00:46:33.000 And then you wind up having all these injuries that never really heal themselves.

00:46:36.000 You know, like one of the best things that ever happened to me training was something actually breaking.

00:46:40.000 Like I'd have an actual torn ACL. Well, now I can't train for six months, for sure.

00:46:45.000 So now it gives everything a chance to recuperate and actually heal.

00:46:48.000 And like, oh look, my elbow doesn't hurt anymore.

00:46:50.000 You know, there's all these things.

00:46:52.000 I told you I got stem cell shots in my shoulder.

00:46:55.000 The guy goes, you had a shoulder separation at some point in time.

00:46:58.000 I'm like, really?

00:46:59.000 Really?

00:47:00.000 I don't even know.

00:47:01.000 Because it gets hurt so much.

00:47:03.000 Absolutely.

00:47:04.000 Someone's just cranking you in an Americana or whatever, and you don't want to tap, and the next day you're back in there again, and you're sure it's sore, but you don't know what it is, and after a while it's not so sore anymore.

00:47:15.000 I didn't know you tore your Achilles tendon.

00:47:17.000 I did that.

00:47:17.000 I didn't tear my tendon.

00:47:18.000 Oh, good.

00:47:19.000 ACL. Why'd you say I tore my tendon?

00:47:21.000 I was thinking, for whatever reason, you said ACL, and I was thinking Achilles tendon.

00:47:25.000 I was like, I did that.

00:47:26.000 That sucks.

00:47:26.000 But the Achilles now, one of the girls who works at the UFC, Heather, she had it done, and they fixed it so fast, they reattached it to the bone now, and you're walking around, like, immediately.

00:47:36.000 Really?

00:47:36.000 It's fucking crazy.

00:47:38.000 Yeah, that's not the way it was when I did it.

00:47:39.000 No!

00:47:40.000 It's like six months of nothing, right?

00:47:42.000 Horrible.

00:47:43.000 You know what else is crazy now?

00:47:45.000 Bicep tendon tears.

00:47:47.000 Jeff Nowitzki, the USADA guy, he had his bicep tendon torn.

00:47:52.000 They replaced that shit.

00:47:53.000 They bolted that shit down to the arm and he was moving around like normal within a couple of days.

00:47:59.000 Wow.

00:47:59.000 It's like he doesn't have any strength in it.

00:48:01.000 It took a while to rebuild the strength back.

00:48:03.000 But it used to be you were in a fucking cast and you couldn't do shit and it took forever to rehab.

00:48:08.000 Now it's like they just bolt things down.

00:48:11.000 There's new techniques now where they can, Dr. Rodney McGee out of Vegas has explained to me, when you tear an ACL in half, instead of replacing the ACL now, they put that ACL back together again.

00:48:23.000 They have new techniques of tying the ACL back together again.

00:48:26.000 It heals up fully.

00:48:28.000 And they've had guys go back into the Olympics within four months of this surgery.

00:48:34.000 Like, what in the fuck, man?

00:48:36.000 Exactly.

00:48:37.000 We're in a crazy time when it comes to regeneration and the ability to fix things and repair things.

00:48:42.000 They're constantly innovating and coming up with new surgical procedures.

00:48:45.000 It's an awesome time to get fucked up.

00:48:47.000 Oh, yeah.

00:48:49.000 I've done a great job of that.

00:48:51.000 My thing, I got to the point, it actually atrophied me so bad.

00:48:57.000 I mean, I was like...

00:48:58.000 And my wife would look...

00:48:59.000 She'd go, every day.

00:49:00.000 She goes, oh, my God.

00:49:01.000 My shoulders were like...

00:49:03.000 They were concave in the back.

00:49:05.000 Well, you were a giant when I met you.

00:49:07.000 When I first met you, you had been doing a lot of powerlifting.

00:49:09.000 And you were three.

00:49:11.000 What were you?

00:49:11.000 Three?

00:49:11.000 How much did you weigh?

00:49:12.000 310. 310. You were fucking huge.

00:49:15.000 Yeah.

00:49:16.000 Not anymore.

00:49:17.000 Yeah.

00:49:18.000 Do you roll anymore?

00:49:19.000 I have not rolled since July.

00:49:21.000 Since that injury.

00:49:23.000 And you're done?

00:49:23.000 No.

00:49:24.000 My wife...

00:49:25.000 Oh, she's hearing.

00:49:26.000 She's in the other room.

00:49:27.000 She's going to knock on the door.

00:49:28.000 You're done, motherfucker!

00:49:30.000 She'll say, you can roll with a black belt.

00:49:32.000 Oh, okay.

00:49:33.000 Right, right.

00:49:34.000 She doesn't want me rolling with people who go spastic.

00:49:36.000 Right, right, right.

00:49:37.000 That makes sense.

00:49:38.000 Yeah.

00:49:38.000 So you were able to work out, though?

00:49:40.000 I mean, it was a point, I'd have to pick up my arm to put it up here.

00:49:45.000 Pat Miletic was here?

00:49:46.000 Oh, same thing.

00:49:47.000 And Pat has his discs fused on their own.

00:49:52.000 That's what mine did, around that cage, that bone.

00:49:54.000 But Pat didn't even do it around a cage.

00:49:56.000 Yeah.

00:49:56.000 Pat's neck was so fucked up, there was no disc left that the bones just grew into each other.

00:50:01.000 I remember when Pat had...

00:50:03.000 He fought, if you remember back a long time ago, Jose Pele Landy Jones.

00:50:07.000 Oh, yeah.

00:50:07.000 And he had to stop in the fight because...

00:50:13.000 Jose was grabbing a hold of a Muay Thai plum and it was killing Pat's neck because his neck was just jacked.

00:50:20.000 Right.

00:50:21.000 And he couldn't finally get to the point that he's like, I can't do it anymore.

00:50:24.000 And it was all based on injuries.

00:50:26.000 Yeah.

00:50:27.000 You know, he wasn't getting beat in the fight by what was happening by the fighter hurting him.

00:50:32.000 It was just someone hanging on his neck because his neck was so bad.

00:50:37.000 Well, I know a lot of guys have gotten their neck really fucked up from can openers.

00:50:41.000 Oh, man.

00:50:43.000 Tell me about it.

00:50:43.000 Can opener is just that technique of opening up the guard.

00:50:47.000 Well, Tim Katalfa was the one that really started bringing out the can opener, and it was Mark Kerr and Mark Coleman.

00:50:53.000 He was doing a lot of that shit.

00:50:54.000 Oh, yeah.

00:50:54.000 That guy was a fucking gorilla.

00:50:56.000 Yeah.

00:50:56.000 A big old gray-haired gorilla.

00:50:58.000 Gray-haired gorilla.

00:50:59.000 He looked like a silverback.

00:51:00.000 He was prematurely gray.

00:51:01.000 Oh, yeah.

00:51:01.000 So he had gray chest hairs and a crazy gray mustache and built a fucking tank, and he was just yanking on things on people.

00:51:08.000 He wasn't taking anything.

00:51:10.000 Yeah.

00:51:11.000 Yeah, he was yanking on shit.

00:51:13.000 But Coleman and Kerr, that was their...

00:51:15.000 Yep.

00:51:16.000 I remember Kerr fucked somebody up in Pride, some Russian cat.

00:51:20.000 He got him in a can opener and fucked his neck up.

00:51:23.000 Bronco.

00:51:24.000 Yes, that's right.

00:51:25.000 Was it him?

00:51:26.000 Yeah, well, that was the first one that he did, and then he had...

00:51:29.000 He was a Russian guy.

00:51:30.000 Yeah, I'm trying to think of who that second one was.

00:51:32.000 I forget the guy's name, but I remember the guy writhing in agony, holding onto his neck, and I'm thinking, fuck that.

00:51:38.000 And that was the Smashing Machine Kerr.

00:51:40.000 That was Kerr when he was on all the Mexican supplements.

00:51:43.000 He was on everything they ever invented in labs.

00:51:46.000 He was giant.

00:51:47.000 Well, I can tell you about it.

00:51:49.000 I was rolling with...

00:51:50.000 Why would you roll with Kerr?

00:51:51.000 Did you roll with Kerr?

00:51:52.000 I did not.

00:51:52.000 I never rolled with Mark Kerr, but I rolled with Mark Coleman.

00:51:55.000 Oh, Jesus.

00:51:56.000 That's not better.

00:51:57.000 Kevin Randleman.

00:51:59.000 Oh my god.

00:52:01.000 It was funny, you know, because at first we were trying, you know, oh, yeah, we'll just roll on your own.

00:52:04.000 Right.

00:52:05.000 And then it was, well, you know, hey, I've been working on this defense.

00:52:07.000 I said, that's not going to work.

00:52:08.000 And he actually told me, Pat Miletic told me that.

00:52:11.000 He didn't teach it that way, dude.

00:52:12.000 I'm just telling you.

00:52:14.000 And it was triangle defense because he's fighting in pride and he ended up getting triangled by Minotauri.

00:52:21.000 But he would sit there and he put his hand to his forehead.

00:52:23.000 Oh, Jesus.

00:52:24.000 But he was the strongest human being I had ever rolled with.

00:52:30.000 He changed a lot of people's games.

00:52:31.000 People don't realize, like when Mark Coleman came into the game, like when Mark Coleman beat Dan Severin and just got him in that scarf hold and cranked on his neck, when people saw what Mark was doing to people, everybody got bigger.

00:52:45.000 Everybody.

00:52:46.000 That was when Vitor went up to like 240. Oh, yeah.

00:52:48.000 Remember that?

00:52:49.000 Oh, yeah.

00:52:49.000 Everybody got bigger because they were just thinking, one day I'm going to have to fight that fucking gorilla.

00:52:54.000 Like, I just got to get at least 40 pounds bigger.

00:52:58.000 Yeah.

00:52:58.000 I love Mark.

00:53:00.000 At a certain point, he hated me because, you know, look, I changed the rules on him.

00:53:04.000 It was me.

00:53:05.000 The headbutts?

00:53:05.000 Did you change the headbutts?

00:53:07.000 Oh, yeah.

00:53:07.000 It was me.

00:53:07.000 See, I like headbutts.

00:53:09.000 Yeah.

00:53:09.000 I think they're effective.

00:53:10.000 For him, they were very effective.

00:53:11.000 Oh, my God.

00:53:12.000 He would take you down.

00:53:13.000 Guys would grab, overhook his arms, and he would use that big old melon to just squish him.

00:53:20.000 But the crazy thing is, when Maurice Smith beat Mark Holman, headbutts were legal.

00:53:25.000 Yes, they were.

00:53:25.000 They were legal.

00:53:26.000 Legal back then, Maurice still won.

00:53:28.000 That was the last show.

00:53:30.000 That's why I'm in favor of headbutts.

00:53:32.000 There's a defense for them.

00:53:33.000 There is.

00:53:34.000 You can figure it out.

00:53:35.000 Maurice figured it out.

00:53:36.000 But it's perception, and that's what the entire sport has fought.

00:53:42.000 For its entire existence.

00:53:44.000 Well, let me tell you this, because I'm beating a dead horse in this.

00:53:46.000 Everybody who listens to this podcast knows.

00:53:47.000 I don't like gloves.

00:53:48.000 I don't think guys should have to wear gloves.

00:53:50.000 Tell me why you don't like gloves.

00:53:52.000 Because I think, why should you have padding on your knuckles that makes your knuckles more effective when you don't have it on your shins, you don't have it on your elbows, you don't have it on your knees?

00:54:00.000 Really?

00:54:00.000 It doesn't make any sense.

00:54:01.000 Your heel?

00:54:02.000 Your heel is one of the hardest parts of your fucking body.

00:54:05.000 Everybody's seen Edson Barboza.

00:54:06.000 Perception.

00:54:07.000 Terry Adam.

00:54:08.000 Fuck that perception.

00:54:09.000 How is it okay to shin somebody in the head?

00:54:11.000 Is it perception of the uninformed?

00:54:15.000 Okay, let's go back.

00:54:16.000 We're going back all the way to UFC 8. The Wayback Machine.

00:54:19.000 UFC 8 was the first time that I ended up in court.

00:54:22.000 Before UFC 8. Because John McCain had come out with this whole thing.

00:54:27.000 And everyone can sit there and say why John did it.

00:54:31.000 Budweiser.

00:54:31.000 Thank you very much.

00:54:33.000 You hit it right on the head.

00:54:34.000 Budweiser was sponsoring boxing.

00:54:36.000 Bingo!

00:54:38.000 I hear all the stories.

00:54:39.000 John McCain did us a favor.

00:54:41.000 Well, you weren't there at that time.

00:54:42.000 He didn't do us any damn favors.

00:54:44.000 They brought him in because they knew that they needed someone who was very respected to be against MMA. Exactly.

00:54:51.000 You've got to look at the pay-per-views.

00:54:52.000 The very first pay-per-view for the UFC, 87,000 buys.

00:54:56.000 They were hoping for a home run at around 25. They got 87,000.

00:55:01.000 Second one, they were in the 180-some thousand, then 200,000, then 300,000.

00:55:06.000 To put it into perspective, today, sometimes, like, I think, there was a fight, oh, Mighty Mouse, there was a fight fairly recently, or Mighty Mouse pay-per-view, where I think it only got 150. Let's be honest.

00:55:19.000 I think probably the last one they had, it's not going to be up there.

00:55:23.000 Amanda Nunes?

00:55:24.000 Yeah, well, there's so much competition around it.

00:55:26.000 You had Lomachenko fighting the same night for free.

00:55:29.000 And so people look and go, on this one, I can still watch something.

00:55:33.000 And it's not that that wasn't a good card.

00:55:35.000 It's just the matter of...

00:55:37.000 Was that the same night as Bellator?

00:55:38.000 Was Bellator on Friday?

00:55:39.000 No, same night as Bellator.

00:55:40.000 So you had all those things.

00:55:41.000 And only one of them you had to pay for.

00:55:43.000 Yep.

00:55:43.000 Exactly.

00:55:44.000 But you look at all of that, man, and it's like, it's crazy.

00:55:49.000 Yeah.

00:55:50.000 Crazy what happened because...

00:55:52.000 John McCain comes out.

00:55:54.000 We go to court in—because Puerto Rico, he sends a letter there, and they try to shut it down.

00:55:59.000 We end up in federal court.

00:56:01.000 And they bring in this boxing expert to be on their side.

00:56:05.000 And one of the things I did is, you know, they had gloves, and they're talking about we had no gloves.

00:56:10.000 And I said, you know—and I took the glove and I said, here— I want to do a demonstration for you for the judge.

00:56:15.000 I said, I would like that boxing expert.

00:56:19.000 Take your hand, put it in that glove, and I want you to hit this desk.

00:56:22.000 Hit it hard.

00:56:23.000 Hit it as hard as you can.

00:56:24.000 He goes, crack.

00:56:25.000 Take it off.

00:56:26.000 Hit it just as hard now.

00:56:29.000 And he goes, well, I said, this is my point.

00:56:32.000 That glove is not there to protect my head.

00:56:36.000 It is there to protect his hand.

00:56:38.000 That is what a glove is for.

00:56:40.000 A glove does not protect someone as far as their brain scrambling or anything.

00:56:44.000 It is there to protect my hand so I can punch you more.

00:56:48.000 That's what it's there for.

00:56:49.000 100%.

00:56:50.000 And if you look and say, if you want to take away some things that go with what's the most traumatic injuries we have in MMA, people are going to look and say all this stuff about, oh, we have guys breaking our...

00:57:03.000 Concussions are the most important thing that we have going on.

00:57:06.000 That's the most critical thing we have going on.

00:57:09.000 And if someone gets to punch less because they have to be more precise with where they're doing it and be careful as far as how many times they do do it because they can't continue to do it in that prolonged fashion, Does it make it safer or is it more dangerous for the fighters?

00:57:25.000 But it's a perception and it's, you know, this goes back to athletic commissions and everything.

00:57:30.000 It's crazy.

00:57:31.000 But hasn't MMA and UFC transcended perceptions?

00:57:34.000 No.

00:57:34.000 I wish.

00:57:35.000 But it has to a certain extent.

00:57:36.000 Are you kidding me?

00:57:37.000 You're still talking about an elbow strike.

00:57:39.000 Right.

00:57:40.000 But the elbow strike thing, let's go back to that.

00:57:44.000 Glossed over it.

00:57:44.000 I did a great segue there.

00:57:46.000 You did.

00:57:46.000 It was the first time I've ever done anything in my life right there.

00:57:48.000 The 12-6 elbow strike, was it because, this is what I've always said, and I believe you're the one who told me this, that when the commissions were talking about techniques, they had seen those karate guys on ESPN at 1 o'clock in the morning breaking bricks with their elbows, and they were like, there's no way you could allow that strike because that strike would be too deadly.

00:58:09.000 Was that what happened?

00:58:10.000 Close.

00:58:11.000 Close.

00:58:11.000 When we talk about commissions, there was only a couple of commissions at the writing of the unified rules as far as when we came together.

00:58:21.000 That was back in April of 2001. And New Jersey, I started talking about the UFC was not the first show to go there, but New Jersey, after they had the IFC and then the UFC, and then they had a couple other small shows, Ring of Fire starts to come in, and everyone has their own rules.

00:58:41.000 The UFC had their own rules, IFC had their own rules, Ring of Fire wants to do their own rules, and New Jersey was like, we can't have these people coming in and giving us what their rules are.

00:58:50.000 If we're going to do this as a sport, We're going to do this under our rules.

00:58:56.000 And okay, what we're going to do is we're going to bring people together to create those rules.

00:59:01.000 People that supposedly know who they really invited other than, you know, I think you had the Mohegan Sun as far as the Tribal Commission come down.

00:59:10.000 They were part of it.

00:59:11.000 New Jersey has a commission.

00:59:12.000 And you had Mark Ratner on a conference call.

00:59:16.000 He was not there.

00:59:17.000 But it was promoters.

00:59:19.000 This is before Ratner worked for the UFC. Mark is working for the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

00:59:22.000 Mark is working for the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

00:59:24.000 He's the executive director.

00:59:25.000 And they bring in all of these promoters.

00:59:27.000 And the promoters were King of the Cage, Terry Treblecock.

00:59:31.000 You had Dana White, Lorenzo Fertitta, John McCarthy, Joe Silva, and Jeff Blatnick from the UFC. You had people from Pride, Yuki Kondo and Kanda or whatever, Hideki, I can't remember his name.

00:59:46.000 And you had Paul Smith, you had a couple, but that was it.

00:59:49.000 That was the people there.

00:59:50.000 And the people that were really talking the most was me and a doctor named Dom Coletta from New Jersey.

00:59:59.000 He was brought in as the medical advisor for the state of New Jersey.

01:00:03.000 And when it came to elbows, they tried to get rid of elbows.

01:00:07.000 That was their big thing.

01:00:08.000 And I was sitting there trying to combat what they were saying because even in New Jersey at the time, they had Muay Thai.

01:00:16.000 And so they had elbows that were allowed in this form.

01:00:19.000 I said, look it.

01:00:20.000 And Jeff and I had put together...

01:00:22.000 A CD at the time, you know, you had CDs.

01:00:25.000 CD-ROM. Yeah, there you go, man.

01:00:27.000 Make it on computer.

01:00:28.000 And it was because I knew they were going to attack throws because that was what made Larry Hazard.

01:00:34.000 You had Tito Ortiz fought Evan Tanner and he picks him up in a body lock and he brings him down and he knocks him out.

01:00:41.000 And Larry Hazard went, like, his heart started going.

01:00:44.000 He's like, oh, we don't like that.

01:00:46.000 And so I knew they were going to attack throws.

01:00:49.000 And so I took, with Jeff, put together all of these throws from the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta.

01:00:57.000 Here's all your throws from judo.

01:00:59.000 Here's all your throws from Greco-Roman wrestling.

01:01:00.000 And God bless Corellon, because he picks people up and drops them on their head, and it's legal.

01:01:05.000 Okay?

01:01:06.000 And I had all these throws from freestyle wrestling, Greco-Roman wrestling, judo.

01:01:10.000 With all of these Olympic athletes picking somebody up and them falling on their head, being tossed on their head.

01:01:16.000 And that's what saved the throws.

01:01:19.000 And what we came up with was, look, what we don't want is someone being able to control another human being.

01:01:27.000 And purposely make a tent spike out of them and try to drive them down onto the mat on top of their heads.

01:01:33.000 A pile driver.

01:01:34.000 Exactly.

01:01:34.000 Like Bob Sapp did to Minotauro.

01:01:37.000 In Pride.

01:01:37.000 But that's a different set of rules.

01:01:39.000 And fucked his neck up for a long time.

01:01:41.000 Yes.

01:01:42.000 Maybe forever.

01:01:43.000 That was what we were...

01:01:45.000 Looking at.

01:01:45.000 And so that's how we came up with, you know, no spiking.

01:01:49.000 And spiking, I knew what it was because I worked out the language there.

01:01:53.000 Because I was sitting there saying, well, hold on, time out.

01:01:56.000 I'm the one that's got to come up and say, this is legal, this is not.

01:02:00.000 So we do this.

01:02:03.000 If someone takes and, you know, a guy shoots a lazy double.

01:02:05.000 He brings his head to the center, picks him up.

01:02:07.000 His legs either go straight up or, you know, his legs are out like this.

01:02:10.000 And you purposely hold him there and try to drive him straight down.

01:02:13.000 That's a spike.

01:02:14.000 That's illegal.

01:02:15.000 If I take and I pick you up as a suplex and I bring you up over the top, I can bring you down as long as there is an arc to it.

01:02:24.000 Any arc makes the throw legal.

01:02:26.000 So Rampage Jackson picks up.

01:02:28.000 Ryan Bader.

01:02:29.000 And spins him and brings him down straight on his head.

01:02:32.000 Legal.

01:02:33.000 And it makes it quick and easy for me as a referee.

01:02:36.000 I see the arc.

01:02:37.000 It's legal.

01:02:38.000 I don't see an arc and I see him holding him and bring him straight down.

01:02:41.000 Now I know it's illegal.

01:02:43.000 And so I was trying to make things as easy as I could.

01:02:45.000 When it came to the elbows, what they were trying to do was take away all elbows.

01:02:50.000 And I go, look it, you have elbows in Muay Thai.

01:02:53.000 Elbows, every time you take something away...

01:02:56.000 You are changing the sport and making it to where it's harder to actually have action.

01:03:03.000 Because you take away elbows, I grab wrist, and if I'm good at grabbing wrist, I can hold wrist for a while and I can't do anything.

01:03:10.000 I've got to pull my hand out.

01:03:12.000 Where if you grab my wrist and I'm John Jones and I take and I roll that elbow over and boom and bring it down, you let go of my wrist because you're being attacked.

01:03:22.000 And so they looked at it and said, and the Dom Colletta being the doctor said, he goes, look it.

01:03:28.000 Yeah, I understand what he's saying.

01:03:30.000 He says, I have a problem with one.

01:03:32.000 And it came from Gan McGee.

01:03:35.000 Versus a guy named Brad Gabriel from the IFC, the very first show they had.

01:03:41.000 Gan McGee, you remember, 6'11".

01:03:44.000 At the time, in this show, about 335 pounds.

01:03:48.000 And he's fighting a guy named Brad Gabriel who's 6'1", 210, 215 pounds.

01:03:53.000 And Brad Gabriel is trying to get a hold of Gan just to survive.

01:03:58.000 And Gan is taking his arm and he's boom, boom, boom.

01:04:00.000 And he's bringing it straight down on top of...

01:04:04.000 Brad Gabriel's head and then he gets his back and he does the same thing like the old Brazilian style of bringing shots to the back of the head.

01:04:12.000 And he said, he goes, I can't have that.

01:04:16.000 He said, I've seen them break big blocks of ice like that.

01:04:19.000 That's a dangerous spell, but we can't have that.

01:04:22.000 And I started to combat it and Lorenzo Fertitta looks at me and goes, John, let it go.

01:04:26.000 It's stupid.

01:04:27.000 Wow.

01:04:28.000 And I go, yes, sir, boss.

01:04:29.000 And I backed away from it.

01:04:31.000 And so that became...

01:04:32.000 So that's the 12 to 6 elbow.

01:04:34.000 That's the 12 to 6 elbow.

01:04:35.000 And the whole thing with the whole positioning of it, 12 to 6, I came up with that there saying, all right, let me just make this clear.

01:04:43.000 So we're saying that my hand comes straight up and straight down.

01:04:47.000 That's what's illegal.

01:04:48.000 So 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock.

01:04:49.000 But if I'm inside control and I bring my arm like this...

01:04:52.000 We're okay with it.

01:04:53.000 And they go, yes.

01:04:54.000 And 1 to 7 is okay?

01:04:56.000 1 to 7, 11.30 to...

01:04:59.000 All that stuff.

01:05:00.000 Sort of.

01:05:00.000 11.30 is pushing it.

01:05:02.000 You're pushing it, but...

01:05:03.000 And the problem was, see, I was there.

01:05:06.000 I understood everything.

01:05:08.000 And I came out and started teaching classes and stuff.

01:05:11.000 And if you listened to me, you knew what it was.

01:05:13.000 But other than that, you're getting, oh, there's a paper written.

01:05:17.000 And so you're reading the paper and it says, no downward elbow strikes.

01:05:21.000 And that's not what the rule was.

01:05:23.000 Right.

01:05:24.000 So we had actually had, you know, season two of The Ultimate Fighter, Joe Stevenson, is going to end up, he's in the semifinals.

01:05:29.000 I had done his earlier match, he had fought Marcus Davis.

01:05:33.000 And I went over the rules with him, and so when we talk about going over rules with fighters, there's a lot that I say.

01:05:39.000 You know, people think that, you know, Don't pull hair.

01:05:43.000 Don't do that.

01:05:44.000 You don't do that.

01:05:45.000 But I'd gone over things and I explained to him, yes, because he asked me, he says, in the guard, can I do this elbow?

01:05:51.000 Absolutely.

01:05:51.000 From the guard.

01:05:52.000 You can do it from the guard.

01:05:53.000 Because you're doing it from 6 to 12. Exactly.

01:05:54.000 When you're doing it, it's 9 to 3, 3 to 9, whatever.

01:05:57.000 You're on your back.

01:05:59.000 And he goes and he's going to fight in the semifinals and he's got Herb Dean as his referee.

01:06:06.000 And Herb tells him, no, you can't do that.

01:06:08.000 And he goes, but John McCarthy says I can do it.

01:06:10.000 And he goes, no, you can't do that.

01:06:12.000 And so I got, well, this is the problem with MMA as we have it.

01:06:17.000 Herb says no.

01:06:18.000 Joe comes out to me and says, hey, you told me that I could do this.

01:06:22.000 I said, absolutely you can.

01:06:23.000 And he goes, Herb Dean just said I can't.

01:06:24.000 I go, I'll take care of it.

01:06:25.000 And I go to Herb and I said, hey, did you tell Joe Stevenson that he can't do this elbow strike?

01:06:30.000 He goes, yeah.

01:06:31.000 He goes, that's illegal.

01:06:31.000 You can't do that.

01:06:32.000 I go, Joe.

01:06:33.000 I said, I'm sorry, Herb.

01:06:35.000 I go, what do you mean it's illegal?

01:06:36.000 I go, it's 12 to 6. I go, his hand's not coming straight up and straight down.

01:06:41.000 And he goes, yeah, John.

01:06:42.000 He goes, that's if the clock's on the wall.

01:06:44.000 But if you're on your back and your clock's on the ceiling, he goes, that's 12 to 6. Oh, Jesus.

01:06:48.000 Oh, this is what happens.

01:06:50.000 And I looked at him.

01:06:51.000 I said, when in the fuck have you ever seen a clock on a ceiling?

01:06:54.000 And he goes, well, I haven't, but it makes sense.

01:06:57.000 And you have these officials.

01:06:59.000 But it's not enhanced by gravity.

01:07:00.000 Hello.

01:07:01.000 But it's still, it's even with gravity.

01:07:03.000 Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

01:07:04.000 Right now, I can tell you.

01:07:06.000 Why hasn't it been changed?

01:07:07.000 Because of doctors.

01:07:09.000 And fear.

01:07:11.000 No one wants to be the one to change it.

01:07:13.000 Look at all the controversy we had when we changed just the little bit that we've changed so far.

01:07:17.000 And that was one of the things we wanted to change.

01:07:19.000 The hand touched the ground.

01:07:20.000 Yeah, and I'll talk about that if you want.

01:07:22.000 But we had it in there, and the doctors for the ABC said, nope, we don't want to touch that.

01:07:27.000 So right now I can tell you.

01:07:29.000 What was their rationale?

01:07:31.000 Their rationale is they don't understand it and they're afraid to say...

01:07:34.000 They look at the sport and they look at it from a different view than you and I as people that are a part of it, you and I as fans, any of that.

01:07:44.000 They look at it from, well, right now.

01:07:49.000 Right.

01:07:53.000 And we haven't had a problem having that as being illegal.

01:07:56.000 So as soon as we bring it into, okay, now it's legal, and we have a fighter that supposedly gets hurt by it, and now they come after us saying, well, before it was illegal, you guys meant illegal.

01:08:06.000 That's why I got hurt.

01:08:07.000 And that's what they're trying to avoid.

01:08:10.000 They're looking at litigation and they're looking and saying, you know what, why bring that in?

01:08:14.000 There's no point.

01:08:15.000 It's so frustrating.

01:08:16.000 Totally.

01:08:17.000 That's a very frustrating one.

01:08:18.000 But right now, I will tell you, the University of Auburn Is doing a study for us about elbows and the power behind each different type that we're having them do, being that one up and down.

01:08:32.000 So I've already had – I used to do things with sports science, and they've already done that test for me.

01:08:38.000 So I know what it is.

01:08:39.000 Right.

01:08:40.000 We'll have a university having a test, and so now it's going to come out that all these elbow strikes that are allowed are all much more powerful than that elbow strike.

01:08:50.000 Well, not only that, but forget about power.

01:08:53.000 Because you could take whatever Dominic Cruz's most powerful technique and then use Francis Ngannou's jab.

01:09:01.000 So are we just saying that you can't have power?

01:09:04.000 Because that doesn't make any sense at all.

01:09:06.000 Well, no, because see, that's what the whole thing is with that elbow strike.

01:09:10.000 Right.

01:09:11.000 It's so powerful.

01:09:12.000 But what about a fucking kick?

01:09:13.000 It's not!

01:09:14.000 Exactly!

01:09:15.000 It's nothing compared to a wheel kick or a spinning back kick.

01:09:18.000 I try to get people to understand, you know, being a hunter, you have an idea of ballistics.

01:09:24.000 Okay?

01:09:24.000 And it's like, and people get in this whole thing about, you know, girls and guys and fighting and stuff.

01:09:29.000 And I try to tell them, look it, you cannot expect Demetrius Johnson to have the power of a Francis Ngannou.

01:09:38.000 Or Stipe Miocic.

01:09:39.000 Or Stipe Miocic.

01:09:40.000 Or Daniel Cormier.

01:09:41.000 Or let's go down lower, George St. Pierre.

01:09:43.000 Giant heavy dudes.

01:09:44.000 He has 125 pounds.

01:09:46.000 We'll say the night that he's fighting, 135, 139 pounds of weight behind it.

01:09:50.000 He is a.22 caliber.

01:09:52.000 Okay, I'm not saying he can't hurt you, but he's not going to drop you because he just doesn't have that power.

01:09:59.000 Unless you're his size.

01:09:59.000 And you have certain genetics, not genetics, certain components that are coming into play because...

01:10:06.000 Like the Joseph Benavidez fight.

01:10:07.000 Look at what Joseph was doing for him.

01:10:10.000 Brings it more power based upon movement of bodies.

01:10:14.000 He can drop somebody.

01:10:15.000 Precision, timing.

01:10:15.000 He can drop somebody with a kick because there's more weight and more power behind it.

01:10:20.000 He can drop somebody with a knee.

01:10:22.000 But when we look at lighter weight fighters, we're going to get people...

01:10:26.000 Human beings are put together basically the same.

01:10:29.000 Okay?

01:10:29.000 Obviously, there's...

01:10:30.000 This guy can take a shot, this guy can't.

01:10:32.000 Okay, that's out there.

01:10:35.000 But if you're a fighter and you get used to accepting damage, accepting punishment, you can accept a lot of things to a certain point where that person's speed and power come together to create a velocity that will put anybody out.

01:10:51.000 And that just comes with strength and weight and size.

01:10:55.000 Because the.22 caliber bullet is not like the.45 caliber bullet.

01:10:59.000 And no matter who the athlete is, the downward elbow is not going to be the most powerful strike in their arsenal unless they're just some fucking downward elbow wizard.

01:11:09.000 And there might be a few of those guys out there.

01:11:12.000 In the Thai world, there might be some guy who does one of those tomahawk elbows that just has a vicious one, but...

01:11:19.000 For those guys, there's few and far between.

01:11:22.000 So tell me how that elbow is going to be stronger than a guy with a rolling thunder kick with his heel hitting someone on the top.

01:11:28.000 It's not going to be.

01:11:29.000 Or an Edson Barboza wheel kick.

01:11:30.000 Hello, man.

01:11:32.000 There's power that you just can't, from leg kicks especially, from kicks with the leg rather.

01:11:39.000 There's no way you're going to be able to mash that with anything you do with your arms.

01:11:42.000 Never.

01:11:44.000 Never.

01:11:44.000 But yet those are legal techniques because they've been legal forever and they just don't want to take any chances.

01:11:48.000 There's a comfort level with it and we've allowed that for this long.

01:11:51.000 That's normal.

01:11:52.000 You know what you're getting into.

01:11:53.000 And now I start to change it.

01:11:55.000 And look, I hate to say this, there will be one fighter out there, whoever they are, who ends up saying, well, I have this lawyer who said I can make money and they're going to sue somebody over it.

01:12:07.000 And they're going to say, that was what got me hurt.

01:12:11.000 Yeah.

01:12:13.000 That's why you'll never see, like, knees to the head on the ground.

01:12:15.000 Ain't happening.

01:12:16.000 I'm just telling you right now.

01:12:17.000 Not gonna ever happen.

01:12:18.000 Never.

01:12:20.000 As soon as one person gets...

01:12:22.000 It's too bad.

01:12:22.000 It is.

01:12:23.000 It's a valid technique.

01:12:24.000 Super valid.

01:12:25.000 And you cannot put yourself into positions.

01:12:28.000 Fighters are always going to work within the parameters of what they have.

01:12:34.000 And they're going to work to, how can I benefit from this?

01:12:37.000 What can I do to make this work for me?

01:12:39.000 I don't care what it is.

01:12:41.000 Be it the cage, the ring, the technique.

01:12:44.000 They're always going to work at making that thing work for them.

01:12:49.000 To the best that they can.

01:12:51.000 That's their job and I don't blame them.

01:12:53.000 That's the way it's supposed to be.

01:12:54.000 I'm going to beat another dead horse because this is something I talk about all the time.

01:12:57.000 What do you think about having fights in an open area like a basketball court and not having a cage?

01:13:05.000 Because I feel like the cage, there's certain things about the cage that it becomes an added factor.

01:13:13.000 Does a ring become an added factor?

01:13:14.000 Yes.

01:13:14.000 And so would a basketball court.

01:13:16.000 To a certain extent.

01:13:18.000 No, to a complete extent.

01:13:19.000 Because fighters are not stupid.

01:13:22.000 They're smart.

01:13:23.000 But you wouldn't be able to use it to get back up.

01:13:25.000 And you wouldn't be able to use it to hold a guy there.

01:13:26.000 But you would be able to use it to nullify, same as in wrestling.

01:13:31.000 Guys run out of bounds.

01:13:32.000 Exactly.

01:13:33.000 And, trust me, guys would start doing it.

01:13:36.000 To keep themselves safe.

01:13:38.000 Football field.

01:13:39.000 Think about it.

01:13:41.000 Well, think about when you first were at the UFC, UFC 12. Right.

01:13:46.000 Back then, if Mark Coleman took somebody down, where did he put him?

01:13:51.000 Right against the cage.

01:13:51.000 Head up against the cage?

01:13:53.000 Yep.

01:13:53.000 People didn't wall walk then, did they?

01:13:55.000 Nope.

01:13:55.000 They didn't know it yet.

01:13:56.000 Exactly.

01:13:57.000 And they got their brains beaten in.

01:13:58.000 Exactly.

01:13:58.000 And then the cage was a benefit for the guy on top.

01:14:01.000 Exactly.

01:14:01.000 And now it's now reversed, almost.

01:14:04.000 To a certain extent.

01:14:05.000 And people are like, oh...

01:14:07.000 But takedowns against the cage...

01:14:08.000 Takedowns are a bitch against the cage.

01:14:10.000 They are, but...

01:14:11.000 So stop trying to do that.

01:14:12.000 It's also possible to get that clinch when you're pressing up a guy.

01:14:16.000 Get the hands together behind the legs.

01:14:17.000 And you could look at the difference in the cages.

01:14:20.000 Because I'm going to tell you right now, there's differences in...

01:14:22.000 Are you trying to say the Bellator cage is better than the UFC cage?

01:14:24.000 No, I'm not.

01:14:24.000 I'll shut these goddamn microphones off right now.

01:14:27.000 You son of a bitch.

01:14:28.000 No, but there is a difference in those cages in that the UFC has what we call a canvas that is an infinity line canvas.

01:14:35.000 The fencing material is around it and there's an actual gap.

01:14:41.000 So if you spill ice in the UFC's cage, no problem.

01:14:44.000 You just sweep it into that hole.

01:14:45.000 Some guys have got their foot stuck in that hole before.

01:14:47.000 Absolutely, but they purposely many times put their foot there too.

01:14:51.000 To brace against the takedown.

01:14:52.000 Because now it becomes, instead of me having to pull and having to lift, we'll say, 80 pounds of pressure, that pressure becomes 160 pounds of pressure because it's double.

01:15:03.000 I can't do it.

01:15:03.000 Because he's wedged in there.

01:15:04.000 Bingo.

01:15:05.000 Yeah.

01:15:06.000 Guys have fucked their ankle up on that thing too, right?

01:15:08.000 Guys have fucked their toes up.

01:15:09.000 They've done a lot of things, but they utilize whatever they have.

01:15:13.000 But don't you think just for the purity of the sport, a football field would be a better way to go?

01:15:18.000 Just make the guys fight in the middle.

01:15:20.000 And then you'd have guys running and people would be going, what the hell is going on here?

01:15:23.000 People would say, that fucking guy always uses the warning zone.

01:15:26.000 Exactly.

01:15:27.000 He's going to the end zone.

01:15:28.000 I hate that guy.

01:15:29.000 And there's no perfect.

01:15:31.000 There's no perfect.

01:15:32.000 There is no perfect.

01:15:33.000 What about the way when Meyerowitz came back?

01:15:36.000 Remember he had that Yama pit?

01:15:38.000 Oh, yeah.

01:15:39.000 Remember that?

01:15:39.000 Oh, man.

01:15:40.000 A lot of guys have tried that sort of strategy of having a pit-type scenario.

01:15:44.000 Well, Frank Shamrock was the first one.

01:15:45.000 In fact, I was arguing with Josh Thompson about that.

01:15:48.000 It was called Shootbox.

01:15:49.000 Shootbox, that's right.

01:15:50.000 It was first called Bushido.

01:15:52.000 And it got shut down.

01:15:54.000 By Pride Bushido?

01:15:54.000 It was like Pride Bushido as far as, you know, same name.

01:15:57.000 But it got shut down.

01:15:58.000 And then when he reopened it up, it was Shootbox.

01:16:01.000 Because it never really happened.

01:16:02.000 It was a grappling thing.

01:16:03.000 So it was like a copyright thing.

01:16:04.000 Yeah.

01:16:05.000 And so he went with Shootbox.

01:16:06.000 And it did have that.

01:16:08.000 It was more of a square with the raised sides.

01:16:12.000 And, you know, you can go to Chuck Norris' World Combat League.

01:16:16.000 Yeah.

01:16:17.000 He did that.

01:16:17.000 Remember the surface?

01:16:18.000 Sure.

01:16:18.000 And it was great to watch.

01:16:19.000 And for the fans, as far as viewing, It's the best.

01:16:23.000 They're doing a karate thing now.

01:16:25.000 Boss Rutten's doing the commentary.

01:16:26.000 Combat karate.

01:16:28.000 Same sort of deal.

01:16:30.000 It's a little bit higher on the sides, on the ramp.

01:16:32.000 I like that.

01:16:34.000 But trust me, guys are going to use it.

01:16:37.000 Back when Bob Meyerowitz tried to come back with Yama, he asked me to be part of that.

01:16:41.000 And I said, no, I'm sorry, I can't.

01:16:43.000 And it wasn't that I was trying to be an idiot.

01:16:44.000 And I told him, I said, look it.

01:16:47.000 I said, you're little – because he was saying, this is going to revolution.

01:16:49.000 I said, no, it's not.

01:16:51.000 I said, that ramp is going to make my – he thought it was going to work against takedowns.

01:16:56.000 I said, it's going to make takedowns easier.

01:16:58.000 Because if I back you towards it, now I elevate you.

01:17:00.000 That just changes my ability to drop levels.

01:17:03.000 There's the karate ramp with a Bitcoin logo.

01:17:07.000 I like that.

01:17:08.000 I like this.

01:17:09.000 But again, if you get stuck up against that side, you can't back your foot up any further.

01:17:15.000 It will make takedowns a little bit easier.

01:17:17.000 And now you get into, let's talk about reality.

01:17:20.000 Okay, you look at that, that looks great.

01:17:22.000 It's in a TV studio.

01:17:25.000 Because let's put that in an arena now, because all those big money ringside seats...

01:17:30.000 They can't see shit.

01:17:31.000 Bingo.

01:17:31.000 Right, especially if you're up against the edge.

01:17:33.000 Yeah.

01:17:34.000 But that's a problem right now in MMA. Absolutely.

01:17:37.000 If you watch a fight and you're fucked...

01:17:39.000 You know.

01:17:39.000 Yeah.

01:17:40.000 Sometimes I see...

01:17:41.000 Sometimes you've got the greatest seat.

01:17:42.000 The greatest seat in the house next to you, and when the...

01:17:45.000 Worst.

01:17:46.000 When the posts are in the position.

01:17:48.000 So you went from the greatest seat in the house to the second greatest seat in the house.

01:17:51.000 You also went from the hardest job in the business to, in my opinion, the easiest.

01:17:56.000 No, not at all.

01:17:56.000 Commentary is the easiest.

01:17:58.000 You have set a standard for commentators.

01:18:02.000 And the real thing is, you're always going to have people that love you and people that hate you.

01:18:07.000 And that's just people.

01:18:09.000 But you set a standard for the way that you call a fight.

01:18:14.000 With the enthusiasm that you truly have for the sport that always made you Phenomenal at what you did.

01:18:23.000 It's not only the knowledge that you had about fighting.

01:18:25.000 It was the way you went about presenting our sport.

01:18:29.000 And you made it happen.

01:18:30.000 And you're part of the whole thing of why this sport has gotten as big as it is.

01:18:34.000 And I appreciate that, man.

01:18:35.000 Thank you.

01:18:35.000 That's very nice.

01:18:35.000 Very nice of you.

01:18:36.000 It's easy.

01:18:37.000 It's not easy.

01:18:38.000 It's an easy job.

01:18:38.000 It's not easy, man.

01:18:39.000 You can't show up and start yelling.

01:18:41.000 Get excited.

01:18:42.000 Well, for me, what is easy about it is that it's natural.

01:18:45.000 It's that, you know...

01:18:47.000 I don't like sports.

01:18:49.000 I'm not a sports guy.

01:18:50.000 People come to me and they start talking to me about football.

01:18:52.000 I literally don't have any idea what they're talking about.

01:18:54.000 When I watch a football game, I don't know what's happening.

01:18:57.000 What's the flag for?

01:18:58.000 What happened?

01:18:59.000 Penalty?

01:19:00.000 What's going on?

01:19:01.000 Basketball games, I know that when the ball goes in the hole with the rope around it, that's good.

01:19:06.000 That's all I know.

01:19:08.000 Soccer, I have no fucking idea what's going on.

01:19:10.000 It looks great.

01:19:10.000 They're running around.

01:19:11.000 But I know fighting.

01:19:12.000 And I'm enthusiastic about fighting.

01:19:14.000 And to me, I don't have any room for any other shit in my head.

01:19:17.000 So when I call fights, I mean, look, man, I watched every fight this past weekend.

01:19:23.000 I watched the Lomachenko fight.

01:19:24.000 I watched the Bellator fight.

01:19:26.000 Because they're all great!

01:19:27.000 Ryan Bader King Moe.

01:19:28.000 I watched the UFC fight.

01:19:29.000 Amanda Nunes, Raquel Pennington.

01:19:30.000 I watched everything.

01:19:31.000 I love watching combat sports.

01:19:33.000 It's my favorite thing to watch.

01:19:35.000 And we were talking earlier, and it's like, you know...

01:19:38.000 As a fan, I would love to have, even boxers, everybody in one little, this is the group, this is what we watch for fighting, because I get to see the best against the best.

01:19:50.000 As a fighter, it's horrible.

01:19:53.000 You've got to have competition out there.

01:19:55.000 You've got to have more promotions because the fighter has nothing going for them if there's not other places they can be.

01:20:04.000 Boxing has changed.

01:20:06.000 I still do boxing.

01:20:07.000 Boxing has changed as far as it used to be so hard.

01:20:10.000 To get Linares against Lomachenko.

01:20:13.000 Because Linares is this champion.

01:20:16.000 And Lomachenko's a champion in this weight class.

01:20:18.000 And so we're going to talk about this forever.

01:20:20.000 Because we're going to build this up.

01:20:21.000 Build this up to the point where it becomes Pacquiao Mayweather.

01:20:25.000 And you lost it years ago.

01:20:28.000 And with MMA, people look and they go, I wish there could be cross promotions.

01:20:32.000 And lookit, there are.

01:20:34.000 The only one that doesn't is the UFC. And you have to understand that.

01:20:39.000 First off, Dana did do that.

01:20:41.000 He did it with pride.

01:20:42.000 And he got screwed.

01:20:44.000 Yeah, they tried it.

01:20:46.000 Remember when Vanderlei came over and they made this big deal about Vanderlei?

01:20:48.000 No, Vanderlei didn't come over, yeah.

01:20:49.000 But when they made the big deal about Vanderlei fighting Chuck and they faced off against each other.

01:20:54.000 They put him in the cage.

01:20:54.000 They put Sakuraba in the cage.

01:20:55.000 And all it did was promote pride.

01:20:57.000 Exactly.

01:20:58.000 Because Dana gave Chuck to pride.

01:21:01.000 He gave Rico Rodriguez to pride.

01:21:03.000 He gave them fighters that went over there and fought.

01:21:06.000 Especially Chuck when Chuck was really a very big part of the UFC. He just wasn't the champion.

01:21:12.000 He was number one.

01:21:13.000 Yeah.

01:21:13.000 You know, and he got screwed by it.

01:21:15.000 And he was like, okay, that ain't gonna ever happen again.

01:21:17.000 And so you can't blame him.

01:21:18.000 I look and go, I understand why you say screw that.

01:21:22.000 And it can, you know, in some ways, I guess it can diminish your product if someone comes from the outside and, you know, goes against your champion, it could diminish your product if you want to say that.

01:21:33.000 I don't think it does.

01:21:35.000 Look, it's a matter of people watch fighting not for promotions.

01:21:39.000 They watch fighting for fighting.

01:21:41.000 It's athlete versus athlete.

01:21:43.000 That's why it's weird.

01:21:44.000 That's why this UFC thing or Bellator thing is weird.

01:21:48.000 Because nobody gives a fuck who Granada Golovkin fights for.

01:21:51.000 They don't give a shit.

01:21:52.000 They don't give a shit if it's on HBO or if it's on Showtime.

01:21:55.000 It's like, Triple G's fighting tonight.

01:21:57.000 How do I watch?

01:21:58.000 Right.

01:21:58.000 Exactly.

01:21:59.000 How do I watch it, you know?

01:22:00.000 But that's the difference between what happened with MMA. Right.

01:22:04.000 I can tell you, you know, back before UFC 30. UFC 30 was the first one that, for Tito's, were the owners of the UFC. And I can remember going to, it was at the Mark Edis Arena at the Trump Taj Mahal.

01:22:17.000 And, you know, they're doing Tito's walkout.

01:22:21.000 Because Tito was the champion, he's going to fight Evan Tanner.

01:22:24.000 And...

01:22:25.000 They're doing this.

01:22:26.000 They had to actually do this firework display.

01:22:29.000 And they had to do it before the show so the fire marshal would approve it.

01:22:34.000 So you had to pay for it twice.

01:22:36.000 And it was like $50,000 worth of fireworks.

01:22:40.000 And so it was this whole thing.

01:22:42.000 And he says, hey, do you want to watch it?

01:22:44.000 I said, yeah, absolutely.

01:22:45.000 And we're standing there talking.

01:22:47.000 And Lorenzo at that time told me, he says, man, I want to be the first promoter to be able to pay an MMA fighter a million dollars for a fight.

01:22:55.000 And I told him, that's awesome.

01:22:57.000 He goes, we're going to build this up, and he's talking to me.

01:23:00.000 And when he was talking to me, I said, Lorenzo, the only thing I can tell you is, hey.

01:23:05.000 Everything you're saying is fantastic.

01:23:06.000 I love it.

01:23:08.000 But there's only one thing you can control.

01:23:11.000 And that's your promotion.

01:23:13.000 You have the UFC. Because he was talking about Bob Meyerowitz not pushing fighters.

01:23:18.000 He was pushing the UFC more.

01:23:20.000 And I said, you know, get a point where you think you have that fighter.

01:23:23.000 You have him under contract.

01:23:24.000 And now you want him to do this.

01:23:26.000 You're going to set him up for this.

01:23:27.000 And he's like, no, I don't want to do that.

01:23:29.000 I think I'd rather just do this.

01:23:31.000 I said, you're always going to have issues with fighters to a point.

01:23:34.000 It's just they're looking at what's best for them, and you're looking at what's best for you, and there's got to be always that compromise towards the middle.

01:23:41.000 I go, so you can always control the brand.

01:23:44.000 And eventually, that's what he realized, and he pushed, and he made the UFC the brand, because it was Pride UFC, and he started, you know, from the Ultimate Fighter, he started having this term where people associated the UFC with mixed martial arts.

01:24:03.000 They didn't say mixed martial arts.

01:24:05.000 They said, oh, The UFC. It's like Kleenex or Xerox.

01:24:09.000 Right.

01:24:10.000 And he did an unbelievable job with that.

01:24:12.000 That's what his job was, is to build his company.

01:24:14.000 He did, he sold it, and he's a smart man.

01:24:16.000 They definitely did nail it.

01:24:18.000 There's no doubt about it.

01:24:19.000 Obviously, I'm a giant fan of the UFC and very loyal to them.

01:24:22.000 But...

01:24:23.000 But!

01:24:24.000 I want to see Rory McDonald fight the best fighters in the world, and I think that Rory McDonald is one of the best, if not the best, 170-pound fighter on the planet.

01:24:32.000 There's no doubt.

01:24:33.000 I mean, you watch his fight with Tyron Woodley, and I understand...

01:24:35.000 Oh, I did that fight.

01:24:36.000 It was a long time ago, and Woodley's a different fighter now, especially under the tutelage of Duke Rufus.

01:24:40.000 He's just...

01:24:41.000 But...

01:24:42.000 He's a better fighter?

01:24:42.000 Rory shut him down.

01:24:44.000 I mean, took away everything he did.

01:24:46.000 He took away everything he did, and he showed this very, very deep, well-rounded game.

01:24:51.000 Look, and this is another thing that people don't get.

01:24:54.000 The UFC has a huge stable of fighters.

01:24:59.000 And I will tell you, look, you can...

01:25:01.000 How many fighters does Bellator have in a contract?

01:25:03.000 Probably about 200 to 220. UFC's going to be about 600. Yeah, it's quite a bit more.

01:25:09.000 Yeah.

01:25:11.000 And in terms of world-class, there's no competition.

01:25:14.000 There's many, many more world-class fighters in the UFC, but you got Michael Chandler, you got some serious fighters over in Bellator.

01:25:23.000 You take a look at the 170s.

01:25:26.000 You know who Ed Ruth is?

01:25:27.000 Sure.

01:25:27.000 Ed Ruth's going to be a monster.

01:25:30.000 A monster.

01:25:31.000 Aaron Pico.

01:25:33.000 How about that left hook again?

01:25:34.000 That's the third left hook.

01:25:35.000 Second one to the body.

01:25:36.000 Kids only had two fights, you know, three fights now.

01:25:39.000 I'm telling you right now, they're talking, in fact, because he works out with, you know, Freddie Roach.

01:25:44.000 I was with Freddie the other day because they brought back the contender.

01:25:47.000 Remember the contender that was from boxing?

01:25:49.000 They're bringing it back.

01:25:50.000 And so I'm doing stuff there.

01:25:52.000 When is Pico's third fight?

01:25:55.000 He just had his fourth fight.

01:25:56.000 He just had his fourth?

01:25:57.000 Yep.

01:25:58.000 Why did I think he only had three?

01:25:59.000 He did.

01:26:00.000 Until Saturday night.

01:26:02.000 Oh, that's right.

01:26:03.000 He fought Lee Morrison.

01:26:04.000 That's right.

01:26:05.000 And left-hooked him to the body.

01:26:07.000 Yep.

01:26:07.000 Yeah.

01:26:08.000 His left hook is nasty.

01:26:09.000 Huh.

01:26:10.000 You know, Freddie Roach will tell you, John, he'll tell you, Joe, He's the real deal.

01:26:15.000 Oh, he's definitely the real deal.

01:26:16.000 He could be a champion in boxing.

01:26:18.000 The kid was Miguel Cotto's sparring partner for Miguel's entire camp.

01:26:23.000 He goes, I wouldn't put anybody in that's not going to be perfect for Miguel that can actually stay with Miguel.

01:26:29.000 Maybe not hurt Miguel, but...

01:26:32.000 I wouldn't put anybody in there that wasn't a high level.

01:26:34.000 He goes, I used him the entire camp.

01:26:37.000 Yeah, he's a super athlete.

01:26:39.000 Scary.

01:26:40.000 Yeah.

01:26:40.000 Scary good.

01:26:41.000 And what, 20?

01:26:42.000 Yep, 21 now.

01:26:43.000 21?

01:26:43.000 Yep.

01:26:44.000 Yeah.

01:26:44.000 I mean, he hasn't even started scratching his prime.

01:26:48.000 Not even in the neighborhood.

01:26:49.000 And he's just a freak.

01:26:51.000 This is what he does.

01:26:52.000 He's kind of like the Floyd.

01:26:54.000 He gets up at 2 o'clock in the morning and starts running or working out.

01:26:57.000 He jumps up out of bed and does 100 push-ups.

01:26:59.000 You go, dude, go to sleep.

01:27:02.000 Well, it's a drive.

01:27:03.000 You want to feed the drive as much as you want to feed the body.

01:27:05.000 And when you're looking at fighters, it's that drive to get to somewhere and then the ability to...

01:27:12.000 Hold on to that.

01:27:13.000 Once you've reached that pinnacle, now it's the drive to get excited and to do things.

01:27:19.000 There it is right there.

01:27:20.000 You've got to go back to the beginning, Jamie.

01:27:22.000 Just a little bit.

01:27:23.000 All the way back.

01:27:24.000 It's just highlights.

01:27:26.000 We'll bring it back to the beginning so you can see that.

01:27:28.000 There it is.

01:27:29.000 Right to the liver.

01:27:31.000 He throws it.

01:27:31.000 He doesn't throw it wide either.

01:27:33.000 He throws it up the middle, like right to the rib area, right next to the solar plexus.

01:27:38.000 You've got to stop doing that.

01:27:39.000 That's the iron-fisted matador, man.

01:27:40.000 I understand.

01:27:41.000 Let that go.

01:27:42.000 He's a matador.

01:27:43.000 Let that go, Aaron Pico.

01:27:46.000 Kid's a killer, though.

01:27:47.000 No doubt about it.

01:27:49.000 I mean, look, Bellator also has Bellator kickboxing, which I'm a great admirer of.

01:27:52.000 I love that they're doing that, putting it on high-level.

01:27:55.000 And that's obviously Scott's original background.

01:27:58.000 I love the fact they're doing high-level kickboxing, too, and John Wayne Parr and Joe Schillings over there.

01:28:04.000 Ray Daniels.

01:28:06.000 Petrosian.

01:28:07.000 Yep.

01:28:07.000 Giorgio Petrosian.

01:28:08.000 Ooh, is he something to watch.

01:28:10.000 See?

01:28:11.000 That's when I'm refereeing him, I go, thank God I never had to fight you.

01:28:17.000 He's such a master.

01:28:19.000 Petrosian is doing some really special things in there when you watch his movement.

01:28:23.000 There's some great breakdowns of his technique online, but if you watch his footwork and angles, he's just never there for you.

01:28:31.000 He's just one of the masters.

01:28:33.000 He's the Lomachenko of kickboxing.

01:28:34.000 Yeah, he's one of the masters.

01:28:36.000 But I mean, I've always made the argument that I love kickboxing, but I really would appreciate Muay Thai better.

01:28:41.000 I like the elbows.

01:28:42.000 I like the knees.

01:28:43.000 If you're going to do just striking, you should be able to do everything.

01:28:46.000 You should be able to clinch.

01:28:47.000 And this is the, in my personal, and I could be wrong, but this is the problem that we have with kickboxing and Muay Thai both.

01:28:54.000 Is people don't know what they're watching.

01:28:57.000 And then when they don't understand it, same as you said, I don't understand football, I don't understand soccer.

01:29:02.000 As soon as you don't understand what you're watching, you start to get, eh, I can not do it.

01:29:06.000 It's understanding this is what's allowed and being part of it, now you're invested in it.

01:29:13.000 But if you don't understand what the rule sets are, and there's so many rule sets when it comes to kickboxing, they've got to come together.

01:29:21.000 And come up with one.

01:29:22.000 And if it's the Muay Thai set, fine.

01:29:24.000 Get rid of the music.

01:29:25.000 Because the music doesn't work here in North America.

01:29:28.000 No, the music and also the Y crew in the beginning dancing around.

01:29:33.000 No one's going to get into that.

01:29:34.000 It's just not going to fly in America.

01:29:36.000 Nope.

01:29:36.000 I mean, there's some...

01:29:38.000 I don't think it's a bad idea to make some changes for the American audience.

01:29:44.000 Some.

01:29:44.000 And that's where you get the pushback and the resistance is, hey, this is part of our tradition.

01:29:50.000 And I totally understand that.

01:29:52.000 I'm not against it.

01:29:54.000 But do you want this to work or do you not?

01:29:56.000 Yeah.

01:29:57.000 Because that's what it's come down to.

01:29:58.000 Yeah, the tradition I get.

01:30:00.000 I mean, I do get it.

01:30:01.000 And I appreciate it.

01:30:02.000 And it's nice and everything like that.

01:30:03.000 But people aren't going to sit around for that.

01:30:06.000 They're just not.

01:30:06.000 Nope.

01:30:07.000 We don't have time and everyone's on Adderall.

01:30:09.000 They want to go, go, go, go, go, go.

01:30:11.000 Yeah.

01:30:12.000 They don't want to sit around for that.

01:30:13.000 You know, where do you think MMA is headed when you look at the sport?

01:30:18.000 And do you have a sense?

01:30:20.000 I mean, you've obviously been there from the beginning.

01:30:22.000 Do you have a sense of the direction?

01:30:24.000 I have an idea, you know, what I think is going to happen.

01:30:27.000 Yeah, everything has got to evolve or it dies.

01:30:32.000 Right.

01:30:32.000 And when you talk about the evolution, there's evolution for fighters, there's evolution for promoters, there's evolution for fans as far as what they get to watch and how they get to watch it.

01:30:42.000 And all of that has to evolve for the sport to continue to rise and build.

01:30:47.000 When the UFC sold, and this is no disrespect to anyone, the greatest thing that the UFC had was Lorenzo Fertitta.

01:30:57.000 I'm just being honest.

01:30:58.000 Dana was fantastic for the UFC as far as his work effort and the amount of work he put into it and, you know, nonstop, just going after deals, trying to make things happen.

01:31:11.000 You know, he was the workhorse for it, but Lorenzo's the brains behind it.

01:31:15.000 You know that.

01:31:16.000 He's a wizard.

01:31:16.000 Oh, my God.

01:31:18.000 The loss of him is great.

01:31:20.000 Yeah, I agree.

01:31:22.000 You've already seen things.

01:31:24.000 Well, it's also the issue is the price.

01:31:26.000 They had to pay $4 billion for something that's probably worth two.

01:31:31.000 Half?

01:31:32.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:31:33.000 I mean, I don't know.

01:31:34.000 I'm not a business person.

01:31:35.000 No, but again, how did it get, you know...

01:31:41.000 How did it get to that point?

01:31:43.000 Lorenzo.

01:31:43.000 Exactly!

01:31:44.000 Yeah, he's a wizard.

01:31:45.000 He is.

01:31:47.000 But it is one of those things that you look and you go, alright, things have changed.

01:31:51.000 And the way he went about doing things.

01:31:54.000 Because look, the one thing Lorenzo was not afraid of was spending money.

01:31:58.000 That's how the UFC survived.

01:32:00.000 Here's a guy that gambled, and he was $54 million.

01:32:04.000 $44 million in the hole.

01:32:05.000 And when he then put $10 million more.

01:32:08.000 Into the Ultimate Fighter.

01:32:09.000 Exactly.

01:32:09.000 That was a time buy, and he paid for all the production.

01:32:13.000 And it launched the sport.

01:32:15.000 Absolutely.

01:32:15.000 Literally launched the sport.

01:32:17.000 He deserves everything that he got from that, and he deserves that giant payout, no doubt about it.

01:32:21.000 My concern is that the monthly nut is so gigantic That I just don't...

01:32:27.000 I wonder if...

01:32:29.000 Like, some people say there's too many fights.

01:32:31.000 They say there's too many fights, too many televised fights.

01:32:34.000 And that this is, you know, this is part of the problems.

01:32:37.000 It's oversaturated, so it's very difficult to sell the pay-per-views.

01:32:40.000 Because people are like, no, I'm not going to buy this one.

01:32:43.000 I'm not going to watch next week on FS1. There's a big card.

01:32:46.000 I'm just going to wait for that and not spend my money.

01:32:48.000 It's the truth, though.

01:32:48.000 You look and it...

01:32:50.000 For a while there, they were almost competing against themselves with pay-per-views.

01:32:54.000 And you had two pay-per-views in a month, and you went and said, I'll buy that one, I'm not going to buy that one.

01:33:00.000 You can't be in business against yourself.

01:33:02.000 And they got rid of that.

01:33:03.000 There's also a mistake in the kind of...

01:33:06.000 Especially, initially, did a lot of sort of Hollywood-style promotion.

01:33:11.000 Like, when I thought there was a real problem was when Ronda Rousey was making her comeback against Amanda Nunes, and they weren't even mentioning Amanda Nunes.

01:33:18.000 I'm like, you guys are out of your fucking mind.

01:33:21.000 This is the woman that I was saying before Ronda got knocked out by Holly Holm.

01:33:25.000 I was saying Amanda Nunes is more dangerous.

01:33:28.000 She's fucking dangerous, man.

01:33:30.000 Especially, you see her in this last weekend against Raquel Pennington.

01:33:33.000 Like, holy shit, she's good.

01:33:34.000 She's just gotten better.

01:33:35.000 And better.

01:33:36.000 And better and better, and her fucking conditioning is off the charts.

01:33:39.000 Which was always a problem for her in the past.

01:33:42.000 Yep, not anymore.

01:33:43.000 Because she would come out like a gangbuster, and she would fade.

01:33:46.000 Yep, she's not fading anymore.

01:33:47.000 No.

01:33:47.000 Fifth round, she was coming out guns blazing.

01:33:50.000 She's a monster, man.

01:33:51.000 She is.

01:33:53.000 I don't know who it was, but I remember this guy talking.

01:33:57.000 And he did not know who Amanda Nunes was.

01:34:01.000 He was some agent.

01:34:02.000 And he said, whoever she is, she's cannon fodder.

01:34:06.000 And I remember just going, what in the fuck are you talking about?

01:34:10.000 How can you say that?

01:34:10.000 They were so they were hyped up on that video that they made where Ronda's like Ronda's back And she's in this mansion wandering on her mansion and watching Amanda Nunes on TV I'm like you guys are out of your mind You're out of your mind because it doesn't matter how many hype pieces you make She's still got to fight Amanda fucking Nunes that woman is She's so good and her fucking power in her hands is like nobody else in the division.

01:34:34.000 Oh She's so physically strong and fast.

01:34:39.000 Yeah And that creates power.

01:34:42.000 It's a matter of...

01:34:43.000 Raquel Pennington.

01:34:44.000 She's a tough girl.

01:34:45.000 She's tough as fuck.

01:34:46.000 You look at her fight with Holly Holm.

01:34:48.000 I mean, that was the first fight for UFC in the UFC for Holly.

01:34:51.000 It was a fucking split decision.

01:34:53.000 Raquel Pennington's world class and she's about as tough as it gets.

01:34:56.000 She is.

01:34:57.000 Let me ask you this.

01:34:58.000 What did you think after the fourth round when she said, I'm done?

01:35:02.000 And her coach was like, no, you're not done.

01:35:04.000 You get back in there.

01:35:05.000 You get back in there.

01:35:05.000 You're going to power through.

01:35:07.000 What did you think of that?

01:35:08.000 It's wrong.

01:35:09.000 And I'm telling you it's wrong for this.

01:35:13.000 We as fans, as humans, we put way, way too much emphasis on the importance of a fight.

01:35:21.000 Okay?

01:35:22.000 Now, it's a fight.

01:35:24.000 And it's important to that fighter as they step into that cage for that first round.

01:35:30.000 And it's important for them as long as they are mentally capable of enduring what is occurring.

01:35:36.000 Because you know...

01:35:38.000 Fighters go through evolutions during the fight.

01:35:42.000 They're strong.

01:35:43.000 They're weak.

01:35:44.000 You know, they're doing well.

01:35:45.000 They're not doing well.

01:35:46.000 And once a fighter tells you, I'm done, it's gone.

01:35:52.000 You're expecting her.

01:35:53.000 Let's look at what you really have.

01:35:55.000 She lost four rounds in a row.

01:35:57.000 Bad.

01:35:58.000 She lost four rounds in a row.

01:36:00.000 And the fourth was a particularly brutal one.

01:36:01.000 Her nose was shattered.

01:36:02.000 Nose got crushed.

01:36:03.000 Blood was pouring out all over the place.

01:36:05.000 And again, for people to understand, let me break your nose and now let me punch it again.

01:36:10.000 You have no concept.

01:36:11.000 Because what I'm telling you is, during a fight, fighters don't feel...

01:36:17.000 Pain the way people think, because there's adrenaline and there's all these things, and it's muted.

01:36:21.000 You feel things, and sometimes you really start to feel them, and as soon as you really start to feel them, you start to lose really bad.

01:36:28.000 And in that situation where she had lost four rounds badly, okay?

01:36:33.000 So what's going to happen in the fifth?

01:36:35.000 You think she's going to come out with this home run shot?

01:36:37.000 Okay, okay.

01:36:38.000 If her mind is still there, then maybe it can happen.

01:36:42.000 But as soon as she says, I'm done, I want out.

01:36:47.000 Hey, it's a fight.

01:36:49.000 And did she receive more damage after that statement in the fifth round?

01:36:56.000 Oh, yeah.

01:36:56.000 She received more damage.

01:36:58.000 And what I'm telling you is it's like you can have the greatest car in the world.

01:37:04.000 All right?

01:37:05.000 You can have, you know, be it, you know, I'm not a real great car guy, but a truck, you know, the Raptor, Ford Raptor truck.

01:37:12.000 You can only crash it into the wall so many times before it says, fuck you, I'm done.

01:37:16.000 And is no longer a nice truck.

01:37:19.000 It's a piece of shit.

01:37:20.000 It doesn't work.

01:37:21.000 Exactly.

01:37:21.000 And the real question is, how much damage did you do for the rest of Raquel Pennington's career?

01:37:29.000 Because she took extra damage.

01:37:30.000 And you never know when it is, Joe.

01:37:32.000 And I can tell you, I can pick out fights where I can tell you, this is the difference in that fighter.

01:37:38.000 From this fight and that moment, he is no longer the same.

01:37:41.000 She is no longer the same.

01:37:42.000 And so as the trainer, what are you there for?

01:37:45.000 You are there to get your fighter ready for the fight.

01:37:49.000 You're there to be the person that's helping them during the fight and giving them instructions and telling them how to attack this person and saying, you're doing this wrong.

01:37:57.000 I need you to do this, whatever it's going to be.

01:37:59.000 That's your job.

01:38:00.000 You are there to sometimes motivate them when they start to lose the belief that I don't know if I can beat this person.

01:38:07.000 And that happens to everybody.

01:38:09.000 I don't know if I can actually, this person's kicking my ass.

01:38:12.000 To be that person, hey, you're doing fine.

01:38:14.000 What I need you to do is this.

01:38:16.000 Get yourself together.

01:38:17.000 Be that motivator.

01:38:18.000 But once the fighter tells you, I'm done.

01:38:22.000 Hey, the mind's gone.

01:38:25.000 It's over.

01:38:26.000 Don't put them back out there because they're not going to perform.

01:38:30.000 They're not going to do well.

01:38:31.000 They can sit there afterwards and say, oh, you know, I'm glad that I went out there.

01:38:35.000 It didn't change any.

01:38:36.000 What changed?

01:38:37.000 The only thing that changed was the amount of damage that she incurred.

01:38:41.000 That's it.

01:38:42.000 She defended her coach after the fight, but most people would.

01:38:47.000 That's fine.

01:38:48.000 She believes in her coach, and she said it was the right decision.

01:38:50.000 But most people that watched that said they should have stopped the fight right when she said that.

01:38:55.000 And I agree with you.

01:38:56.000 And I think, especially when you're dealing with someone as tough as her, for her, For Raquel Pennington, I'm a giant fan of hers.

01:39:04.000 For her to say, I'm done.

01:39:06.000 Like, you gotta respect that.

01:39:07.000 When have you ever seen her quit?

01:39:08.000 Never.

01:39:09.000 Okay.

01:39:09.000 Never.

01:39:10.000 What's it telling you?

01:39:11.000 She's battered and beaten down.

01:39:12.000 And that can happen to anybody.

01:39:14.000 Yep.

01:39:14.000 Anybody.

01:39:15.000 Anybody.

01:39:16.000 Look at, you know, I mean, it's so hard to get people to understand.

01:39:20.000 You have no idea how hard these people are being hit.

01:39:24.000 People get this idea of, oh, I could fight with an MMA. You have no fucking clue how good they are.

01:39:31.000 They are dangerous people, and they hit with power.

01:39:37.000 Especially Nunes.

01:39:38.000 She's a freak.

01:39:39.000 Well, when you're cage-side or ring-side in a fight, and you actually not only see...

01:39:44.000 That shot, you hear it.

01:39:46.000 Yeah.

01:39:47.000 And you hear the actual impact.

01:39:49.000 It's telling you, do you realize how hard that just hit that person?

01:39:52.000 Yeah.

01:39:53.000 You know, and they're walking through a lot of those, man.

01:39:55.000 And you go, God damn, they're tough.

01:39:56.000 Yeah, that's what I tell people about in Gano.

01:39:59.000 Like, I'm like, you think you know what it seems like...

01:40:04.000 When someone hits someone really hard, and then you see Francis hit people.

01:40:07.000 And you go, oh, Jesus.

01:40:09.000 Yeah, he's a game changer as far as his power.

01:40:11.000 Yeah, some new thing going on with that guy.

01:40:13.000 Some new thing.

01:40:15.000 Some new thing.

01:40:16.000 I mean, a guy who's got a cut weight, a natural guy who's got a cut weight to get down to 265. And when he hits you, you literally can't take it.

01:40:25.000 The only guy that's been able to do it right is Stipe.

01:40:27.000 Because he moved away from everything.

01:40:29.000 But Stipe's done it.

01:40:30.000 And going into that fight, man, this is one of the ones, you know, the UFC, they were hyping the hell out of Francis.

01:40:37.000 And I go, man, you are not hyping your champion.

01:40:41.000 And I'm telling you right now, if this fight gets out of the first round, Stipe's going to win it.

01:40:45.000 I didn't have, and I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but it's, look it, Stipe is the more complete fighter.

01:40:53.000 And look at the guys that he's fought.

01:40:55.000 Mark Hunt destroyed him.

01:40:57.000 Okay, do you think Mark Hunt can hit?

01:40:58.000 Yep.

01:40:59.000 You know, it's like, it's not like he hasn't fought guys that can frickin' bang.

01:41:03.000 Junior Dos Santos.

01:41:05.000 Boom!

01:41:05.000 And destroyed, you know, fought him twice.

01:41:07.000 Overeem.

01:41:07.000 Got dropped by Overeem.

01:41:09.000 Came back and knocked him out.

01:41:10.000 Okay.

01:41:11.000 So he's demonstrated what he can do.

01:41:12.000 But you've got Francis, and he's got that almost Mike Tyson type of mystique about that power.

01:41:20.000 And I understand.

01:41:20.000 You just don't see guys hitting uppercuts that snap someone's head back.

01:41:24.000 Mine can't even do it.

01:41:28.000 That was more impressive than anything Tyson ever did because he knocked Overeem into orbit.

01:41:32.000 Oh my god.

01:41:33.000 Overeem was completely unconscious, toes curled with one shot in a way that you just don't see.

01:41:40.000 Michael Spinks.

01:41:41.000 Yeah.

01:41:41.000 Remember that one.

01:41:42.000 But Spinks had already been dropped.

01:41:43.000 I mean, he dropped Spinks and had him hurt, and then Spinks get up and he hit him with that right hand.

01:41:47.000 That was real similar, but there's something about Francis' power.

01:41:52.000 Obviously, you're dealing with four-ounce gloves, but you're dealing with a way bigger man, too.

01:41:55.000 Absolutely.

01:41:56.000 He's 40-plus pounds bigger than Mike ever was.

01:41:59.000 Oh, yeah.

01:41:59.000 Well, 275 the night of the fight.

01:42:02.000 Easy.

01:42:03.000 Compared to no bigger than...

01:42:05.000 Not even that.

01:42:06.000 Probably, right?

01:42:06.000 218 at the most, somewhere in there.

01:42:09.000 Yeah.

01:42:09.000 I mean, look...

01:42:10.000 Obviously, completely different sports, and Mike's one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time, without a doubt.

01:42:15.000 But there's something about Ngannou's power that's otherworldly.

01:42:19.000 It's freakish.

01:42:20.000 Like, you see people get hit, and you see this look on their face, they're like, oh, Jesus!

01:42:24.000 But you've had that same look, no matter if it's...

01:42:28.000 You're doing kickboxing, sparring, or you're grappling with someone, and all of a sudden someone's doing something, and you're like, holy shit!

01:42:33.000 Yep, yep.

01:42:33.000 There's some holy shit people out there, man.

01:42:35.000 Oh, yes, there are.

01:42:35.000 There's some next-level people.

01:42:37.000 Scary people.

01:42:38.000 But what makes you think, like, what would happen if you got a guy like a LeBron James, like a real super athlete, and they got invested in MMA the way Aaron Pico is, you know?

01:42:47.000 I'll tell you what, I did a...

01:42:49.000 He might be too big.

01:42:51.000 There was a guy named...

01:42:53.000 I want to say Golston.

01:42:55.000 He was a safety for the frickin' 49ers.

01:42:59.000 And I can't remember his first name.

01:43:02.000 I'm an idiot.

01:43:02.000 But I was doing training with a bunch of NFL players and MMA guys and just getting NFL guys to do martial arts-type training to help with their flexibility, help with their strength, help with their conditioning.

01:43:17.000 And Frank Trigg was one of the guys there.

01:43:19.000 And Golston, I had him doing arm bars, just swinging hips left to right, left to right.

01:43:25.000 You know, it's keeping for a core.

01:43:27.000 And he's doing it.

01:43:28.000 I said, no, this is what I want you to do.

01:43:30.000 Every time you grab this, I want you to take this, and I want your legs to do this, and I want you to squeeze.

01:43:34.000 Right?

01:43:34.000 Just, you know, basic stuff.

01:43:36.000 And he starts doing it, and Frank goes, God, God damn it.

01:43:40.000 Thanks, John!

01:43:41.000 Right?

01:43:42.000 And he's getting cracked.

01:43:43.000 I mean, it's pressure.

01:43:45.000 Right.

01:43:45.000 And then we'd go and we're doing kicking exercises and I got him up against the back.

01:43:49.000 I said, I want you to take your foot and I need you to rotate on the ball of your foot.

01:43:53.000 I need you to do this.

01:43:54.000 Your foot's going to come right here and I want it to end up here.

01:43:57.000 And he starts cracking this bag and Joe, I'm like, oh my God, could you imagine if this guy wanted to fight?

01:44:03.000 I think we've got real training.

01:44:04.000 Oh, my God.

01:44:07.000 Is that him?

01:44:07.000 Is that you talking about Vernon?

01:44:08.000 Not Vernon Golston.

01:44:09.000 Look at that guy.

01:44:10.000 Jesus Christ.

01:44:11.000 He was a safety for the 49ers and then went to Tampa Bay.

01:44:16.000 Let's just gaze at this man Sir Zeke for a few moments here.

01:44:19.000 What in the fuck?

01:44:21.000 All men are not created equal, ladies and gentlemen.

01:44:24.000 They must be brothers because they look...

01:44:26.000 Yeah, no, there's some next level...

01:44:28.000 Jamie, how much do you think LeBron weighs?

01:44:31.000 Right now he's like probably 250-ish.

01:44:34.000 Oh!

01:44:34.000 6'8".

01:44:35.000 So he's not even too big.

01:44:36.000 He's been as much as 280. Oh, no, no, yeah.

01:44:37.000 So he's not even too big to fight heavyweights.

01:44:39.000 Oh, no, he could fight heavyweights.

01:44:40.000 That's a good question.

01:44:41.000 What do you think about that weight class, like the 265 weight limit?

01:44:46.000 Shouldn't heavyweight just be fucking giant?

01:44:48.000 Yeah.

01:44:49.000 Just should be as big as he can get.

01:44:50.000 Yep.

01:44:51.000 Yeah, why is that?

01:44:52.000 Because there really should be something between 205 and...

01:44:59.000 Well, there is.

01:45:00.000 Let's bring this out.

01:45:01.000 Right now, there are weight classes that aren't being used.

01:45:04.000 They're out there as far as they are part of athletic commissions.

01:45:09.000 They're approved by the ABC. You've got...

01:45:13.000 165?

01:45:14.000 Mm-hmm.

01:45:14.000 Okay.

01:45:15.000 This is...

01:45:15.000 California started this, I believe?

01:45:16.000 Andy Foster?

01:45:17.000 He started as far as...

01:45:19.000 I'm a big fan of that guy.

01:45:20.000 Yeah.

01:45:20.000 Look it.

01:45:21.000 He's outstanding in what he does.

01:45:23.000 He's proactive.

01:45:24.000 He's trying to make things right for fighters.

01:45:26.000 He's a martial artist, too.

01:45:27.000 Absolutely.

01:45:28.000 He fought.

01:45:28.000 He'd be boxed.

01:45:29.000 He fought MMA. He had a good record.

01:45:31.000 Yep.

01:45:31.000 You know, he's done it all.

01:45:32.000 And he's officiated.

01:45:34.000 He's done the entire thing.

01:45:35.000 So he's fantastic.

01:45:37.000 Yeah.

01:45:38.000 For the sport of boxing and the sport of MMA. But when you're looking at everything that, you know, as far as weights, you know, we went and said, look, there's 10 pounds between 25, 35, 45, 55. Why are we jumping 15 pounds?

01:45:53.000 Okay?

01:45:54.000 Because we have all these guys making these cuts, and there are those guys that are the tweeners.

01:45:59.000 You know, if you want to say, you know, Kelvin, is he a tweener at, you know, 170 to 175?

01:46:06.000 Probably, right?

01:46:07.000 Yeah, he is.

01:46:07.000 He can make the 175 weight.

01:46:09.000 He can't make the 170. Well, he can.

01:46:11.000 He can't because of the way he does things.

01:46:13.000 Yeah, he has and he can.

01:46:15.000 He just can't do it the way he likes to eat.

01:46:17.000 Exactly.

01:46:18.000 But he could do it with the things he likes and be at 175. Yeah, I agree.

01:46:23.000 But this is where, you know, the UFC is the most powerful entity within MMA. And, you know, look, they've done a ton of great things for the sport.

01:46:33.000 But they've also done things that have held the sport back.

01:46:36.000 Like what?

01:46:37.000 Weight classes.

01:46:38.000 Because as soon as we start to come up with, hey, we're going to do this.

01:46:42.000 This is going to be a rule change.

01:46:43.000 They're the first ones to go, what?

01:46:45.000 Well, we forgot that UFC used to have the weight class was 199. It wasn't 205. Exactly.

01:46:50.000 When we first did the unified rules, Tito Ortiz was the light heavyweight champion at 199.9.

01:46:59.000 And as soon as the unified rules came in and we said, okay, that weight class is 205, Tito Ortiz was the light heavyweight champion at 205. Right.

01:47:06.000 Why don't they do that?

01:47:07.000 Why don't they have some new champions, have some new championship fights?

01:47:11.000 Because you have people that are in a position...

01:47:15.000 It's like Dana.

01:47:17.000 Dana doesn't know.

01:47:19.000 Dana's told things by people because he can't know everything.

01:47:22.000 And when he hears that, oh, they're talking about new weight classes, he doesn't make a comment about it.

01:47:29.000 He goes to his people and he says, hey, is this a problem for us?

01:47:33.000 And you have Sean Shelby and Mick Maynard are the two matchmakers for the UFC. And they have enough problems as it is with getting everybody to the fight and making sure that fight happens and stuff.

01:47:48.000 And the guys are pulling out and stuff.

01:47:50.000 And they're going to tell you, we don't want that.

01:47:53.000 Because you're diluting my weight class now.

01:47:56.000 When you're not diluting your weight class, just move that person here, move this person.

01:48:00.000 You're putting them in, but they're going to say that you're diluting it and you're making it too narrow for them.

01:48:05.000 And so they don't want that change in the weight class.

01:48:08.000 So Dana goes, we don't want changes in the weight class.

01:48:10.000 Okay?

01:48:12.000 The sport of MMA needs changes in the weight class because there's so many fighters out there that, look it, when we make changes, the change is not for the UFC. The UFC does not have to have that weight class if they don't want it.

01:48:31.000 They can sit there and say, and the reason that the 170 pound weight class stayed and remained is because of the UFC. They said, okay, we'll agree to bringing in more weight classes, but we want to keep the 170 because they didn't want to move Tyrone Woodley and they didn't want to have to move their champions.

01:48:50.000 It's not a big deal.

01:48:51.000 But when we do a change to the sport, it's to the sport.

01:48:55.000 It's not to the UFC. It's not to Bellator.

01:48:59.000 It's not to one.

01:49:00.000 So is Bellator adding weight classes?

01:49:02.000 Bellator hasn't added those either.

01:49:04.000 Why haven't they added them?

01:49:06.000 That's the promotions.

01:49:09.000 Right.

01:49:09.000 The promotion can sit there and say, you know, right now Bellator doesn't have a 125-pound champion.

01:49:14.000 They're doing the heavyweight.

01:49:15.000 They don't even have a heavyweight champion, which there will be after the Grand Prix tournament.

01:49:19.000 So there's a 55. Now there's a 65 that's available.

01:49:23.000 Did they move the 70 to 75?

01:49:25.000 70 is still there at this moment.

01:49:29.000 So right now you have a log jam.

01:49:30.000 But is 75 legal as well?

01:49:31.000 70 is legal.

01:49:32.000 75 is legal.

01:49:34.000 65 is legal.

01:49:35.000 55 is legal.

01:49:36.000 I feel like 10 pounds is legitimate.

01:49:39.000 Yeah, I think it's perfect.

01:49:40.000 It is.

01:49:40.000 The jumps between like 85 and 205 and then 205 and heavyweight is 265. That's crazy.

01:49:48.000 See, but this is where you get into this, you know, everyone gets back into the, well, Hoyce Gracie fought guys that were bigger.

01:49:54.000 It's like, They didn't know any better back then.

01:49:56.000 It's a different world.

01:49:57.000 They were clueless.

01:49:58.000 Yeah, it's a different world.

01:49:58.000 When you talk about size now, and when the skill level is the same and the size is different, I can tell you who's going to win that fight.

01:50:07.000 The big guys.

01:50:07.000 Yes.

01:50:08.000 100%.

01:50:08.000 Okay, just about every time.

01:50:10.000 So when you look and you said, if I went and said, okay, Let's take a look at Brock Lesnar versus Randy Couture.

01:50:17.000 Brock Lesnar is coming in, weighing 265 for the scales, and he's 285 at least for that night.

01:50:25.000 Randy Couture is coming in, he's 224 for the scales, that's what he's going to be that night.

01:50:29.000 So we have only a 60 pound difference.

01:50:33.000 Okay?

01:50:34.000 So if I sat here right now and said, okay, I'm going to take Demetrius Johnson and put him against Chris Weidman, Yoel Romero.

01:50:42.000 Okay?

01:50:43.000 You'd look at me and go, are you fucking nuts?

01:50:46.000 Okay?

01:50:47.000 Yeah.

01:50:47.000 Because, well, that's stupid.

01:50:50.000 But that's reality of what we do at times in the heavyweight division.

01:50:53.000 So we do need something that is between that two or five.

01:50:56.000 Sort of.

01:50:56.000 You do have smaller heavyweights.

01:50:58.000 You're dealing with the percentage of the body size.

01:51:00.000 It's a far greater percentage of the body size going from 125 to 185 versus...

01:51:06.000 Your biggest percentage is going to be in that 155 to 185. You've got more fighters, 145 to 185. Right, but what I'm saying is someone fighting someone who's 60 pounds larger than them when they're 125 pounds is a way different thing.

01:51:19.000 Percentage-wise?

01:51:20.000 Yes.

01:51:20.000 Yeah, absolutely.

01:51:21.000 But it's that same concept.

01:51:23.000 I could sit there and move it up to 45. It's still ridiculous that you have a 205 to 265. You have a 60-pound weight class.

01:51:29.000 It is.

01:51:29.000 It's a crazy weight class.

01:51:30.000 It's crazy, but it should be off of...

01:51:32.000 You know, you've got guys that are smaller heavyweights that...

01:51:36.000 Cut so much weight to get to light heavyweight.

01:51:38.000 Right.

01:51:39.000 Okay?

01:51:39.000 And that would be better at 225. Absolutely.

01:51:42.000 So create a 225 and then everything else is heavyweight.

01:51:45.000 So 55, 65, 75, 85, 95, 205, 225, you get a little bit of a gap there, and then heavyweight.

01:51:53.000 And then heavyweight should be fucking heavyweight.

01:51:55.000 Whatever you are.

01:51:56.000 Whatever you are.

01:51:56.000 Yeah.

01:51:57.000 Yeah.

01:51:57.000 You know, the big heavy, heavy, heavy guys, they're not going to do well anyways.

01:52:01.000 Like Valuev, remember that guy who fought in boxing?

01:52:04.000 Huge boxer from Russia.

01:52:05.000 He was like 7 feet tall.

01:52:07.000 7'1", yeah.

01:52:08.000 Gigantic, huge dude.

01:52:09.000 He was a monster, yeah.

01:52:09.000 Who beat him?

01:52:10.000 Did David Hay beat him?

01:52:11.000 Yeah.

01:52:11.000 Did he?

01:52:12.000 I was, um...

01:52:13.000 Was it David Haye who beat him?

01:52:14.000 I believe David Haye beat him and somebody...

01:52:16.000 Which is crazy because David is relatively small.

01:52:18.000 I think Evander Holyfield even fought him.

01:52:20.000 Did he?

01:52:20.000 I think Evander fought him.

01:52:21.000 I think he did.

01:52:22.000 Yeah.

01:52:22.000 Wow.

01:52:23.000 Yeah.

01:52:23.000 That's crazy.

01:52:25.000 Yeah, that guy was almost...

01:52:26.000 Well, not almost.

01:52:27.000 He was too big.

01:52:28.000 His body didn't work right.

01:52:30.000 Look, there is a point of no return.

01:52:35.000 You're going to go down from that point.

01:52:37.000 And to be a big guy, you can accept more punishment, but you can only accept it for so long.

01:52:42.000 Yeah, he lost to David Hay.

01:52:43.000 That was his last fight.

01:52:46.000 Yeah, he beat Evander Holyfield.

01:52:47.000 But he beat Holyfield in 2008. Yes.

01:52:49.000 That was a different person.

01:52:50.000 He beat John Ruiz.

01:52:52.000 Yeah, Clifford Ittney, Larry Donald, John Ruiz.

01:52:55.000 Yeah, interesting.

01:52:56.000 He went through some people there because he's so big.

01:52:59.000 He's a tough body to push against.

01:53:03.000 It would be interesting to see what would happen if you let Francis Ngannou powerlift.

01:53:13.000 Think about it.

01:53:14.000 And again, you look at this and you go, hey, I would rather see Francis Nignano not cutting weight at all.

01:53:21.000 Right.

01:53:22.000 What does he weigh?

01:53:23.000 And being healthy and stepping in that cage.

01:53:28.000 This is the thing people don't get is when we talk about weight cuts, you talk about boxing and MMA. They're two different sports.

01:53:35.000 One, I will tell you, MMA is more violent than boxing.

01:53:40.000 More violent because you can pick somebody up six feet off the ground and drop them down onto the surface.

01:53:47.000 You can pull someone's arm back to the point the elbow hyperextends and to the point where it actually dislocates.

01:53:55.000 That's a more violent but more damaging.

01:53:59.000 Is boxing.

01:54:00.000 You mean overall career?

01:54:02.000 Career-wise, more...

01:54:04.000 Exactly.

01:54:04.000 Because...

01:54:05.000 You get hit in the head more.

01:54:06.000 You got two targets.

01:54:07.000 I got two tools, two targets, and 90% of those blows go to the head.

01:54:10.000 Okay?

01:54:11.000 But when you're looking at...

01:54:13.000 Boxers or MMA fighters.

01:54:15.000 And when we have problems with the weight cuts and we have problems with subdural hematomas, it's always the smaller fighters.

01:54:22.000 And it's because they lose so much weight that it becomes a problematic thing with that fight.

01:54:30.000 Where their brains are dehydrated, it pulls away from the dura, you have all these things that can happen with bleeding, and it cannot stop it, and we get problems from it.

01:54:40.000 So let's try to get guys closer.

01:54:42.000 Incredibly unusual for a heavyweight to die in the ring.

01:54:46.000 And in fact, I think that guy who fought Luis Ortiz, remember that Russian cat?

01:54:51.000 Magabed.

01:54:51.000 Yeah, that was about three years ago, maybe?

01:54:54.000 Yeah, that was in New York.

01:54:55.000 And that guy got really, really badly hurt in that fight, and that was one of the rare situations where a heavyweight experienced serious brain bleeding and got rushed to the hospital.

01:55:05.000 He had his cheek crushed in the second round.

01:55:08.000 Imagine fighting and having a heavyweight boxer punching your face when your cheek is broken and crushed.

01:55:16.000 Just everything in that, and this is where sometimes corners...

01:55:21.000 Need to stop fights.

01:55:21.000 You are there to protect your fighters sometimes from themselves.

01:55:25.000 Yeah.

01:55:25.000 They are so tough that they can keep going.

01:55:27.000 The problem is the stink.

01:55:28.000 The stink of a no mas, you know?

01:55:30.000 Yeah.

01:55:30.000 And that's especially in boxing.

01:55:32.000 Look at it.

01:55:33.000 Yeah.

01:55:33.000 Think about it.

01:55:34.000 When did that fight occur?

01:55:35.000 Yeah.

01:55:35.000 And it's still talked about 40 years later.

01:55:37.000 Well, it's one of the things that Conor McGregor and Floyd Mayweather were saying during the fight.

01:55:41.000 Floyd Mayweather said, there's no tap outs in boxing.

01:55:43.000 There's no tap outs in boxing.

01:55:44.000 Listen, dude, if you got an MMA, you'd fucking tap out.

01:55:47.000 Oh, yes he would.

01:55:48.000 You'd either tap out or you'd go to sleep or get your arm broken.

01:55:50.000 You don't want either one of those things to happen.

01:55:52.000 Nope.

01:55:52.000 Talk is great.

01:55:54.000 It is.

01:55:54.000 It's great.

01:55:55.000 I will give them credit as far as the way they hyped that fight.

01:55:59.000 It got out of hand at some point.

01:56:01.000 It's exciting.

01:56:02.000 But you've got to look at some of the things that were done.

01:56:05.000 At the weigh-ins, Connor with a boner in his underwear.

01:56:07.000 I don't know what he did to give himself a boner, but he's got at least a three-quarters boner.

01:56:13.000 He's got a chub.

01:56:14.000 He's got a chubby.

01:56:15.000 And he's screaming at him in his face like, whoa, what is happening here?

01:56:19.000 He was being attacked from both angles.

01:56:23.000 Yeah, but it didn't help in the long run.

01:56:25.000 Ah, you knew.

01:56:26.000 Come on.

01:56:27.000 What did you think about all that crazy talk about...

01:56:29.000 Dana said it's 100% bullshit, but the crazy talk about Connor and Floyd fighting in an MMA cage with boxing gloves, no kicks, no takedowns, no submissions, but you can clinch.

01:56:42.000 It's ridiculous.

01:56:43.000 Because the clinch is going to do you what good in that you can dirty box and...

01:56:50.000 I'm going to tell you, Conor has the ability to dirty box better than Floyd because Floyd's not used to doing it.

01:56:57.000 It's a different element.

01:56:58.000 But look, if you're going to come into another man's sport, quit trying to change the rules.

01:57:03.000 Yeah, just come into the sport.

01:57:04.000 Conor went into his sport.

01:57:06.000 He didn't change any of the rules.

01:57:07.000 Now, he did some things illegally.

01:57:09.000 I'll give him that.

01:57:10.000 He's hitting him with hammer fists.

01:57:11.000 He's doing things.

01:57:12.000 You go, you can't do that, Conor.

01:57:13.000 Right.

01:57:15.000 For the most part, he's following those rules.

01:57:18.000 For the most part.

01:57:18.000 Okay?

01:57:18.000 All you'd have to do is just say no takedowns and no submissions and no grappling, and I'd be like, go ahead.

01:57:25.000 Before the first one, I said, no, I don't want to see Conor boxing.

01:57:28.000 I said, tell you what, let's make it halfway even.

01:57:30.000 Yep.

01:57:30.000 Kickboxing.

01:57:31.000 Yeah.

01:57:31.000 Okay?

01:57:32.000 No takedowns, no ground, but he gets to get kicked.

01:57:36.000 It would have changed that fight.

01:57:38.000 Oh, fuck yeah.

01:57:39.000 Oh, yeah.

01:57:39.000 But, you know, Floyd's smart.

01:57:42.000 I don't blame him for doing what he's doing.

01:57:44.000 He's a money-making machine.

01:57:44.000 He's smart.

01:57:45.000 He's not going to do anything stupid.

01:57:47.000 No.

01:57:47.000 If anything, he'll wait for some other boxer to get really popular or other MMA fighter to get really popular and box him.

01:57:54.000 Smart man.

01:57:55.000 I mean, he literally might not ever box a boxer again.

01:58:00.000 I mean, he made his biggest payday ever fighting a guy with zero professional fights.

01:58:04.000 Well, zero professional boxing fights.

01:58:06.000 It's pretty crazy.

01:58:08.000 It's absolutely crazy.

01:58:09.000 What was his payout?

01:58:10.000 What did they say overall?

01:58:13.000 $300 million.

01:58:14.000 $300 million?

01:58:15.000 That's a good piece of change.

01:58:17.000 That'll tide him over for about two years.

01:58:20.000 And I'm not even kidding.

01:58:22.000 That guy spends money like water.

01:58:23.000 It's crazy.

01:58:24.000 He does.

01:58:25.000 He's crazy.

01:58:25.000 It's fun to watch, though.

01:58:27.000 It's fun to watch him spend all that money, too.

01:58:29.000 It's like, Jesus Christ.

01:58:31.000 You know, I watch him spend it.

01:58:33.000 I cringe.

01:58:33.000 Yeah.

01:58:34.000 It's like, oh, I can't even believe you're paying that money for that.

01:58:37.000 Why?

01:58:38.000 It's like every boxer like that goes broke.

01:58:41.000 They all go broke.

01:58:42.000 It's just a matter of time.

01:58:43.000 That's what I don't want to see.

01:58:45.000 Yeah, but don't you?

01:58:46.000 Isn't it kind of fun?

01:58:48.000 Is it terrible that he has to get a job like regular folks?

01:58:51.000 Is it terrible?

01:58:53.000 There's something about that, right?

01:58:55.000 If you go to a fucking job site and you see a guy who's working as a finished carpenter, you don't go, oh, that poor guy's got to work as a finished carpenter.

01:59:03.000 You go, hey, man, what's going on?

01:59:05.000 He goes, hey, how you doing?

01:59:06.000 Everybody's fine.

01:59:07.000 Everybody's fine with that.

01:59:08.000 But if that guy used to be Floyd Mayweather, And now he's working as a Finnish carpenter.

01:59:12.000 You're like, look at that poor bastard.

01:59:13.000 Gotta hammer those nails down.

01:59:15.000 No, no.

01:59:15.000 What's it like?

01:59:16.000 Oh, yeah.

01:59:17.000 Oh, yeah.

01:59:17.000 Hit that.

01:59:17.000 Oh.

01:59:18.000 Smash that nail.

01:59:19.000 You fucking loser.

01:59:19.000 You used to be on top of the world.

01:59:21.000 Shouldn't have spent all that fucking money, Floyd.

01:59:23.000 Right?

01:59:23.000 Isn't that weird?

01:59:24.000 There's a weird thing that people do.

01:59:26.000 I used to work with a guy named Mike Quarry.

01:59:28.000 I remember Mike Quarry.

01:59:29.000 Quarry?

01:59:30.000 Sure.

01:59:31.000 And Mike was a professional boxer.

01:59:33.000 Light heavyweight, right?

01:59:34.000 Absolutely.

01:59:34.000 Fought Bob Foster for the light heavyweight title.

01:59:37.000 Back in the day.

01:59:37.000 I used to dig holes with Mike Quarry.

01:59:40.000 Wow.

01:59:41.000 I used to do plumbing with him.

01:59:42.000 And he was a great guy, but he was a mess.

01:59:46.000 Punch drunk?

01:59:47.000 Oh yeah, absolutely.

01:59:49.000 And his brother was even worse, but he couldn't wheel a wheelbarrow.

01:59:54.000 Didn't have the balance and coordination to do anymore.

01:59:56.000 But if you put him in, and I would spar with him, we'd go in and we would work out.

02:00:02.000 And you put him in a ring and all of a sudden he'd start to bounce.

02:00:04.000 He could fight still.

02:00:05.000 It was just part of who, that ability to do it.

02:00:09.000 Those pathways are just deeply carved.

02:00:10.000 Yep.

02:00:11.000 Wow.

02:00:13.000 But it's sad because he ended up leaving that and he ended up going, he tried to become a hair cutter.

02:00:21.000 Tried to become a barber.

02:00:24.000 He tried.

02:00:25.000 He about cut his thumb off.

02:00:26.000 Oh, Jesus.

02:00:27.000 And you look and you go, it's sad.

02:00:30.000 It's like he had to do those things.

02:00:33.000 What's sad, though, is that he's physically damaged and he can't move right and can't talk right and all that stuff.

02:00:38.000 But is it sad that he has to work a regular job?

02:00:40.000 No.

02:00:40.000 That's not sad, but it's sad when you look and you say...

02:00:43.000 He could have gotten away with that if he just saved all that money.

02:00:46.000 If someone was smart enough to tell you back then, look, I want you to take this much and put it here, maybe you wouldn't have to be doing this today.

02:00:54.000 And you look at his whole thing, the way his dad was with him and the things he went through, you look and you go, I feel bad.

02:01:04.000 I feel bad that you're having to come in here.

02:01:06.000 Every day like I am, but after what you've done in your life and the status that you actually had at one time, I feel bad.

02:01:14.000 Yeah, you feel bad, but if you was just a regular guy, you wouldn't feel bad.

02:01:17.000 That's where it's weird.

02:01:18.000 It's fucking weird.

02:01:19.000 It's a weird thing, right?

02:01:21.000 It is.

02:01:22.000 We elevate people.

02:01:24.000 But it's also...

02:01:26.000 Nobody really wants to work, right?

02:01:28.000 Very few people.

02:01:29.000 Oh, I love working.

02:01:30.000 Not a regular job.

02:01:30.000 I don't know.

02:01:31.000 Yeah, but you're working at Bellator.

02:01:32.000 You're a fucking commentator.

02:01:34.000 Stop it.

02:01:34.000 Okay, stop.

02:01:34.000 Hold on.

02:01:35.000 That's not even a job.

02:01:35.000 I told you that's easy.

02:01:37.000 I want you to think about it.

02:01:37.000 This is my third career.

02:01:38.000 Yes.

02:01:39.000 Okay?

02:01:40.000 I was a police officer.

02:01:41.000 You loved that, too.

02:01:41.000 Okay?

02:01:42.000 I loved it.

02:01:42.000 I had a ball doing it.

02:01:44.000 Right.

02:01:44.000 And then I had a career as a referee, basically.

02:01:47.000 I loved it.

02:01:48.000 I still do.

02:01:49.000 Don't think that I wouldn't like to go and still do fights and stuff.

02:01:52.000 And I watch a fight and go, damn, I wish I was in there.

02:01:55.000 Why can't they let you do both?

02:01:57.000 That doesn't make any sense to me.

02:01:59.000 If I was running shit, I would absolutely let you do both.

02:02:03.000 But this is the difference.

02:02:05.000 MMA and boxing are set up completely different than any other sport as far as how they're run.

02:02:14.000 The NFL. I tried to say this with...

02:02:18.000 People wanting to come into officiating for MMA. And the big questions I get is, you know, oh, how much, you know, how long will it take and how much can I make?

02:02:28.000 Okay, my first response is, get the fuck away from me.

02:02:32.000 Okay, because you don't get it.

02:02:35.000 And this is, and I tell guys that are doing it, I say, hey, let me explain what this is to you.

02:02:41.000 And it's, you know, you get paid for doing what you do.

02:02:44.000 And I don't know what it is and I don't care.

02:02:46.000 But you deserve it.

02:02:48.000 But tell me what it's like for Joe Rogan to walk into an arena, some of the biggest arenas in the world, Madison Square Garden, you know, T-Mobile, Staples.

02:03:00.000 No one stops you.

02:03:02.000 They don't freaking hold you back.

02:03:03.000 You get to walk anywhere you want in that arena.

02:03:06.000 You get to walk to the cage.

02:03:07.000 If you want to walk in the back and go to the locker rooms, you can do that.

02:03:10.000 No one stops you.

02:03:11.000 You don't pay a dime for it.

02:03:12.000 It's pretty nice.

02:03:13.000 And you get to sit and watch the greatest fights in the world.

02:03:15.000 It's a good gig.

02:03:16.000 Hello!

02:03:17.000 It's priceless.

02:03:18.000 It's priceless.

02:03:19.000 Yeah, I enjoy it.

02:03:20.000 And it's exactly it because you love the sport.

02:03:23.000 And it's not about how much money you make.

02:03:25.000 It's about being a part of something and being able to do something that other people would give their left fucking nut for.

02:03:32.000 Sure.

02:03:33.000 And the other one that I'm talking to him, I'm like, how much have you done to prepare yourself for this?

02:03:38.000 Because, lookit, I started doing stuff back when I was a kid.

02:03:42.000 Now, I didn't do it to prepare to be an official.

02:03:44.000 That just fell into my lap.

02:03:46.000 But all the stuff that my dad made me do, doing anything that had to do with combative sports, and then from there, continuing on, and then meeting Horry and Gracie, and going and learning that,

02:04:01.000 and all of that set me up to have the ability to be successful At this sport where I tell people all the time, let's look at the NFL. You want to be an official and you want to do the Super Bowl.

02:04:17.000 Great!

02:04:17.000 Because the UFC is the NFL to fighters and to officials.

02:04:23.000 Okay?

02:04:23.000 It should be.

02:04:25.000 But they're looking at it and they go...

02:04:27.000 I get people all the time saying, I could do that.

02:04:29.000 I would be great.

02:04:30.000 I know I'd be...

02:04:30.000 I've been watching since the beginning.

02:04:32.000 And you go, you have no fucking clue.

02:04:35.000 Because if you wanted to do this in the NFL, how would you go about doing it?

02:04:39.000 Well, you'd start off in peewee football with little six-year-olds, eight-year-olds doing, you know, officiating on the weekends.

02:04:45.000 And you would do that for...

02:04:47.000 Couple years.

02:04:48.000 And then you graduate to a higher level.

02:04:50.000 And then finally, you might even get to high school.

02:04:52.000 And from high school, you might even get into junior college.

02:04:55.000 And junior college, you might start doing Division III, Division II.

02:04:58.000 You might make it to Division I.

02:04:59.000 And by the time they call and say, hey, do you want to come here and start to do summer league for the NFL, you've put in 15 to 20 years of officiating and of going through problems and situations and everything.

02:05:13.000 And that's the big difference that people don't get.

02:05:17.000 Even the athletic commissions, they all will have somebody that has been their guy at their state who is – Well, he's there for all our small shows.

02:05:27.000 And he's always available and he's always doing stuff.

02:05:30.000 So we want to give him that bigger shot.

02:05:32.000 When the UFC's coming here, we want to put him in that main event fight.

02:05:35.000 And you go, don't do it to him.

02:05:37.000 Because they have no concept that when that official steps into that octagon for that very first prelim fight...

02:05:45.000 Their heart rate's at about 145 beats per minute, just standing still.

02:05:49.000 Why?

02:05:50.000 The adrenaline's flowing and they're scared.

02:05:52.000 They're scared because, oh my God, I can't make a mistake.

02:05:56.000 Because now, I got all these eyeballs on me.

02:05:59.000 And that's where you get all of that knowledge is doing the small shows and going through time and seeing, you know, having problems yourself, seeing other people have those problems.

02:06:08.000 How do they deal with it?

02:06:09.000 Talking to other officials.

02:06:10.000 What do you do in this situation?

02:06:12.000 That's where that experience is going to help separate you from the other people.

02:06:17.000 And when the bad thing happens, you make it look easy.

02:06:20.000 Sometimes it's not easy.

02:06:22.000 Sometimes you don't make it look easy.

02:06:23.000 Sometimes it's just as a mess.

02:06:25.000 But it's that experience that's going to get you out of the problem without everyone wanting to take your head.

02:06:31.000 Yeah, it's always an issue, or it was an issue for a while at least, when we would go to a new town and they would do local guys.

02:06:39.000 And the local guys would have to referee.

02:06:41.000 They wanted a certain percentage of local guys refereeing fights.

02:06:44.000 And local guys would do big, high-level fights and make gigantic mistakes.

02:06:48.000 And separate guys when they were working and separate guys when they were on the ground.

02:06:53.000 And people would go crazy.

02:06:54.000 Yeah.

02:06:55.000 Including me.

02:06:56.000 I would go crazy, too.

02:06:56.000 Well, that's because you're expecting a certain level of competence in doing that job.

02:07:02.000 And, well, I've seen it done this way multiple times, multiple times.

02:07:05.000 And all of a sudden, boom, something different.

02:07:07.000 Now it goes, whoa!

02:07:09.000 Right.

02:07:09.000 And arbitrary, subjective decisions that affect professional fighters' careers.

02:07:13.000 It's just not fair.

02:07:14.000 If I went and I put you with officials, I said, all right, explain to me when you stand somebody up when you don't.

02:07:20.000 Right.

02:07:20.000 They're not going to do a good job of it.

02:07:22.000 Yeah.

02:07:22.000 Okay?

02:07:22.000 I'll tell you exactly why.

02:07:24.000 I do it, when I would do it, why I wouldn't, okay?

02:07:28.000 Because you get, you know, there's positions and you know what they are.

02:07:31.000 When a guy takes somebody down, it's not easy to get somebody down.

02:07:35.000 Okay, now if I'm the guy getting taken down and I close my guard, grab a hold of him, gable grip, pull him in tight, let's see, what am I doing?

02:07:44.000 I'm stalling.

02:07:45.000 I'm the guy underneath stalling this fight.

02:07:48.000 Trying to get stood up.

02:07:49.000 Because I wanted to get stood up because I have a referee that's going to stand me up because the crowd starts to go, boo!

02:07:54.000 Well, I'm not being fair.

02:07:56.000 If I'm the referee in this situation, I'll never stand you up.

02:08:01.000 I'm going to give that guy in the top position all the time in the world to get past what you're doing as long as he's working trying to do it.

02:08:09.000 It's when he starts to stall in the top position and not try to do anything and just sit there.

02:08:14.000 Now you're stalling too.

02:08:15.000 Stop.

02:08:16.000 Stand up.

02:08:17.000 But from a locked guard, what submissions do I have?

02:08:21.000 Nothing.

02:08:22.000 What did you think of this past weekend with John Fitch and Paul Daly?

02:08:26.000 Where Paul Daly was yelling out, boo, boo.

02:08:29.000 You know, that was a strange, strange scene.

02:08:32.000 What is it?

02:08:34.000 Come on, to you, what is it?

02:08:35.000 He was very frustrated with his inability to stop John Fitch's game.

02:08:38.000 Yeah.

02:08:39.000 John Fitch's game is obvious to everybody that watches.

02:08:41.000 He wants to take you down a pound.

02:08:42.000 That's what he always does.

02:08:44.000 Was there any doubt in your mind what John Fitch is going to try to do in that fight?

02:08:47.000 Okay, so if you're Paul Daly, is there any doubt in your mind what John Fitch is going to try to do in this fight?

02:08:52.000 And is there any doubt what Paul Daly is going to try to do?

02:08:54.000 Exactly.

02:08:54.000 Right.

02:08:55.000 Okay, so because the fact that I can't stop what he does...

02:09:00.000 Now I'm just going to sit there and...

02:09:02.000 I'm breaking.

02:09:03.000 Mentally, I'm broken.

02:09:04.000 I can't stop what he's doing.

02:09:05.000 And so I'm going to try to...

02:09:07.000 Was he booing about the matchmaking?

02:09:09.000 He booed about everything.

02:09:10.000 He booed John.

02:09:11.000 He said, you know, you're not fine.

02:09:13.000 He booed Bellator.

02:09:14.000 He booed the crowd.

02:09:15.000 He booed everything.

02:09:17.000 Because...

02:09:19.000 You know, there's that point where we all, you know, I can't get out of this.

02:09:24.000 Why doesn't Paul Daly just kickbox?

02:09:26.000 You know what?

02:09:27.000 I talked to him before the fight and he seemed like he was, you know, mentally better off and he was happy.

02:09:34.000 And you look and you go, hey, you know what you're getting yourself into.

02:09:38.000 I mean, here's a guy, when you look at it, Joe, he really has 32 knockouts in 40 victories.

02:09:45.000 You know what he's going to do.

02:09:47.000 He's got a fucking left hand from hell.

02:09:50.000 Man, his left hand when it hits you.

02:09:52.000 And I don't care where it hits you.

02:09:53.000 It hits you in the top of the head.

02:09:54.000 Yeah, you even block it.

02:09:57.000 So you know what he's going to do.

02:09:58.000 And it's like, if you don't want to be that guy that can be taken down, stop doing the sport because this is part of the sport.

02:10:06.000 It is not a matter of, well, I want to be able to fight standing up because it's more exciting.

02:10:11.000 Have you ever talked to him about this?

02:10:12.000 I have.

02:10:13.000 What does he say?

02:10:13.000 He goes, the grappling is boring.

02:10:16.000 Then stop it.

02:10:17.000 Wait a minute.

02:10:17.000 The grappling is boring?

02:10:19.000 Boring.

02:10:19.000 Well, why doesn't he just kickbox?

02:10:21.000 Hello!

02:10:22.000 And he has.

02:10:22.000 He has.

02:10:23.000 He kickboxed when they had the dynamite card.

02:10:26.000 But why doesn't he just do that?

02:10:27.000 I mean, he's a fucking dynamite striker.

02:10:29.000 He is.

02:10:29.000 He's a phenomenal, phenomenal kickboxer.

02:10:32.000 But there's a difference, you know, and you know...

02:10:35.000 You can take some kickboxers out there and put them in an MMA fight, they're in trouble.

02:10:41.000 But man, you put them in a kickboxing fight, those dudes are phenomenal!

02:10:47.000 And just the fact that what they do, they cannot do in an MMA cage because the ability for them to be taken down, it stops them from trying to do some of those things.

02:10:58.000 Well, with Paul, Paul is that guy, he's the high-level striker in MMA. Put him in kickboxing against some certain guys.

02:11:06.000 Hey, you know what?

02:11:07.000 There's guys out there.

02:11:08.000 He's going to wish he could go to the ground.

02:11:10.000 You know, let's just be honest.

02:11:12.000 He's that guy.

02:11:13.000 He's kind of in the middle.

02:11:14.000 He's a tweener.

02:11:15.000 Yeah.

02:11:16.000 You know?

02:11:17.000 Man, I just feel like...

02:11:17.000 Phenomenal fighter.

02:11:18.000 But I feel like if he fully concentrated on kickboxing...

02:11:21.000 Maybe that would be the thing.

02:11:22.000 Yeah.

02:11:23.000 It just...

02:11:24.000 To me, it doesn't make any sense.

02:11:25.000 Like, I was watching that.

02:11:26.000 I was like, man, this is like career implosion.

02:11:28.000 Watching him boo everything.

02:11:29.000 I felt bad for him.

02:11:30.000 I really did.

02:11:31.000 You know, and I felt bad for him not because he was losing the fight.

02:11:34.000 I feel bad for him that, you know what, you're making such bad choices.

02:11:38.000 That was a bad choice.

02:11:39.000 Bad choice.

02:11:39.000 The booing thing.

02:11:40.000 I mean, it's just ultimate frustration.

02:11:41.000 And it just makes you look bad.

02:11:43.000 Yeah.

02:11:44.000 I mean, he's just stuck in this situation where he just doesn't seem like he can get out of it.

02:11:48.000 Yeah.

02:11:48.000 You know, and look, when he, in the end of the first round, when he went after John, hey, no one's sitting there saying, stop, let's put you on the ground.

02:11:57.000 Right, of course.

02:11:57.000 Okay, because you have an advantage here.

02:11:59.000 You're utilizing that advantage.

02:12:00.000 Good for you.

02:12:01.000 Yeah.

02:12:01.000 But John fought the exact fight that you would expect him to try to fight against a guy like Paul Daly.

02:12:07.000 I mean, it's amazing that John is still swinging.

02:12:10.000 He looked better.

02:12:11.000 John looked better physically, mentally, everything.

02:12:15.000 He had a lot of problems.

02:12:17.000 And I talked to him about those problems.

02:12:19.000 He was messed up.

02:12:20.000 His neck was completely screwed up.

02:12:22.000 He actually switched.

02:12:24.000 He talked about it.

02:12:25.000 He goes, I had to switch to a southpaw to fight Jake Shields.

02:12:28.000 Because if I got hit standing right-handed, I got hit and my head went that way, he goes, my entire arm would go numb and I couldn't feel it.

02:12:34.000 Whoa.

02:12:35.000 Yeah, and there was a lot of things.

02:12:36.000 He says, and he goes, I've got all that fixed, and he's fixed it not through surgery.

02:12:40.000 He had doctors telling him, you need surgery, and he's done it through physical therapy, exercise, and nutrition that he believes.

02:12:48.000 He goes, I don't have the same problems anymore.

02:12:49.000 He said, he goes, I was utilizing a lot of marijuana to take care of pain.

02:12:53.000 I don't do that anymore.

02:12:56.000 That's a pity.

02:13:00.000 Well, I know he tried veganism for a while, but he said it made him feel weak.

02:13:05.000 He went back to eating meat, and he said that really made him feel better.

02:13:08.000 I know he'd gone through a bunch of things, but I wasn't aware of his neck injury.

02:13:11.000 Big time.

02:13:12.000 So it was a bulging disc or something along those lines?

02:13:14.000 Yeah, he had a stenosis and bulging disc.

02:13:17.000 Big problems with...

02:13:19.000 He would get hit and his entire side would go.

02:13:22.000 And how did he fix that?

02:13:23.000 I mean, what?

02:13:24.000 You know, in talking to him, he said, I started doing a nutritional and he says, I take like 40 different pills a day.

02:13:32.000 Supplements.

02:13:33.000 I wish I could remember the guy who set them up.

02:13:35.000 When you say pills, you don't mean medication, right?

02:13:36.000 No.

02:13:36.000 Yeah, supplements.

02:13:37.000 Nutrients.

02:13:37.000 Supplements for, you know, bone things and opening of blood vessels and all these different things.

02:13:44.000 I'll reach out to him because I'd love to hear about that because it's really interesting.

02:13:47.000 It is interesting and it's great that he was able to find that person that what this guy told him to do has worked for him.

02:13:54.000 Well, you know, Jake had gone through a similar situation.

02:13:56.000 He had a back injury and the doctors were telling him to stop fighting.

02:13:58.000 They were telling him stop fighting, stop grappling.

02:14:00.000 Well, that's a doctor's thing all the time.

02:14:03.000 You can't do it anymore.

02:14:03.000 Yeah, you're done.

02:14:04.000 I saw the Vinnie Pazienza movie.

02:14:07.000 Actually, I didn't.

02:14:08.000 But I know the actual scene.

02:14:10.000 I know what actually really happened to Vinny with the broken neck.

02:14:14.000 Yeah.

02:14:15.000 I mean, they told him, you're done.

02:14:16.000 He's like, no, I'm not.

02:14:17.000 Yeah.

02:14:17.000 He went on to have some of his best fights afterwards.

02:14:19.000 Absolutely.

02:14:20.000 Yeah.

02:14:20.000 But then again, sometimes you are done.

02:14:22.000 I mean, it's hard to make that distinction.

02:14:24.000 Like, when do you know when your body is broken to the point of no repair?

02:14:28.000 Yeah.

02:14:28.000 Well, you know, it comes down to everyone.

02:14:30.000 I don't care who, you know, you, me, anybody.

02:14:34.000 You know the difference between you physically now at the age of 50 compared to what you physically could do at the age of 30. Yeah.

02:14:42.000 You know, there's a big difference.

02:14:43.000 And just, you know, father time's undefeated.

02:14:46.000 That motherfucker.

02:14:47.000 Speed starts to go and everything starts to go.

02:14:49.000 Mentally, you're way smarter now.

02:14:52.000 Well, that's why TRT was so dangerous.

02:14:54.000 Yeah?

02:14:54.000 Like the TRT Vitor days.

02:14:56.000 Oh, yeah.

02:14:56.000 You got a guy who's 37 years old.

02:14:59.000 Much smarter.

02:14:59.000 Who's also hopped up on applesauce and throwing fucking wheel kicks at people.

02:15:03.000 And he was a different animal because he had so much knowledge behind him, but his body was moving like a young man's body.

02:15:11.000 Yep.

02:15:12.000 Yeah, which is interesting.

02:15:13.000 It's like you're hacking father time.

02:15:15.000 You've got all that knowledge, all that wisdom and discipline.

02:15:19.000 Lookit, the more knowledge you have, the better off you are.

02:15:21.000 Yeah, for sure.

02:15:22.000 And I have a whole lot of old Vitor stories when he was young when, lookit, he was mentally...

02:15:26.000 God gives everybody certain things, but very rarely does he give them everything.

02:15:32.000 Right.

02:15:32.000 You know, but physically...

02:15:34.000 He blessed Vitor.

02:15:37.000 Physically, Vitor was fast.

02:15:39.000 Oh, yeah.

02:15:39.000 You know, he had good strength.

02:15:41.000 He was, you know, balance-wise, he was great.

02:15:44.000 The speed was incredible.

02:15:45.000 Yeah.

02:15:46.000 But...

02:15:47.000 Up here, that was where he was lacking.

02:15:50.000 It wasn't that he was stupid, but he lacked confidence.

02:15:52.000 And he would have to have people telling him that he could do stuff all the time, because he never believed in himself.

02:15:58.000 Later on, he started to believe in himself.

02:16:01.000 He matured.

02:16:02.000 And that's what a successful person does.

02:16:07.000 Yeah, I mean, that's a thing, too, that people have to realize.

02:16:10.000 Those low points in your life where you don't believe in yourself, that doesn't define you.

02:16:14.000 That's just you at that moment, and you can improve on that.

02:16:17.000 So many people just go through this life thinking who they are is who they will be forever.

02:16:21.000 No, who you are is what you make.

02:16:22.000 Yeah, I mean, if that's the case, I'd still be that fucking idiot who I was in high school.

02:16:26.000 I was a big idiot.

02:16:28.000 Everybody was.

02:16:28.000 I'm embarrassed by the stuff I used to do.

02:16:30.000 Of course you should be.

02:16:31.000 I mean, it's like, Jesus Christ, what an ass I was.

02:16:33.000 Especially people that have a lot of energy.

02:16:35.000 You have a lot of energy and enthusiasm.

02:16:37.000 You make giant, colossal mistakes, and then you're like, and then you think about yourself.

02:16:42.000 You're like, is that me?

02:16:43.000 You're not even the same person you were a year ago.

02:16:45.000 No one is.

02:16:47.000 If you're paying attention and you're learning from life's mistakes and life's decisions and all the trials and tribulations, you should theoretically at least be improving in the way you approach life every day.

02:16:59.000 You really should be.

02:17:00.000 Should be.

02:17:01.000 And then with fighting, those things are highlighted because you only fight if you're lucky two, three times a year.

02:17:07.000 Unless you're Jeremy Horn, and he was fighting all over the place, or Travis Fulton.

02:17:14.000 I think Travis has well over 200 fights now, right?

02:17:16.000 He's still fighting.

02:17:17.000 Well, he fights boxing.

02:17:18.000 I've done boxing matches with him.

02:17:20.000 Crazy how many fights that guy has.

02:17:21.000 He's crazy.

02:17:22.000 And he seems fine.

02:17:23.000 He is.

02:17:24.000 That's nuts.

02:17:25.000 Ah, that's genetics.

02:17:27.000 There's certain people, I don't care what anyone wants to say.

02:17:30.000 Oh, it's true.

02:17:31.000 There's certain people, they're predisposed, if they get head trauma, they're going to have problems.

02:17:37.000 And there's certain people, dude, you could hit them in the head with everything you have for as long as you want, and they're just going to be fine.

02:17:43.000 Yeah, there's certain guys that one or two knockouts and they're basically done.

02:17:48.000 It's just one or two.

02:17:49.000 That was Freddie Roach.

02:17:51.000 Look at, you know, if you go back and use, you know, Eddie Futch was Freddie Roach's trainer.

02:17:57.000 Eddie Futch was the trainer for Joe Frazier during his, you know, like Thrill of Manila against Muhammad Ali.

02:18:05.000 Eddie Futch is the one that pulled Joe Frazier out of that fight when he was winning the fight.

02:18:10.000 Between the 14th and 15th round, when Muhammad Ali was going to say, I can't go back out there.

02:18:17.000 And Eddie Futch, because Joe Frazier couldn't see, says, you're done.

02:18:19.000 I'm not going to let you back out there, because he cared.

02:18:21.000 And that's the right thing.

02:18:23.000 But he was the trainer of Freddie Roach.

02:18:25.000 And Freddie Roach, I think, was 14-0 when he lost his first fight.

02:18:29.000 And you watch...

02:18:31.000 At that point when he gets knocked out, Eddie Fudge told him, son, you're done.

02:18:36.000 You shouldn't fight anymore.

02:18:38.000 Because he's seeing something in him.

02:18:40.000 Now, Freddie Roach goes, you're crazy.

02:18:42.000 I've lost one fight.

02:18:43.000 And he goes with somebody else and starts to...

02:18:46.000 But he progressively goes down.

02:18:48.000 His boxer goes away.

02:18:50.000 He probably saw something in the gym as well.

02:18:52.000 He did.

02:18:52.000 Absolutely he did.

02:18:53.000 Because it's every day that he's with him.

02:18:55.000 You can see it.

02:18:56.000 Yeah.

02:18:56.000 And it's a hard thing, man, because you care about that person.

02:18:59.000 And it is part of your livelihood.

02:19:01.000 You're working with them.

02:19:02.000 You do get paid through them, but you do care about that person.

02:19:07.000 You don't want to see them go down, and that happens.

02:19:10.000 How's that for you when you were being a referee and you were seeing guys who probably shouldn't be doing it anymore?

02:19:16.000 Kills me.

02:19:19.000 People, when it comes to refereeing, what they don't understand is you're responsible.

02:19:25.000 Okay?

02:19:26.000 You're that last level of responsibility for the fighters.

02:19:32.000 You know, the matchmakers put the fight together.

02:19:35.000 You know, the promoter promotes that fight.

02:19:37.000 The Athletic Commission approves that fight and then puts you in there with them.

02:19:41.000 And, you know, I can tell you there's sometimes they give you what I call a shit sandwich.

02:19:45.000 You know this is bad from the beginning.

02:19:47.000 But you deal with it and you handle it.

02:19:49.000 But what people, what fans don't understand is, as a referee, I never cared.

02:19:56.000 There's only been one time that I ever cared who won a fight.

02:20:00.000 Okay, one time.

02:20:01.000 What was that?

02:20:02.000 Murillo Bustamante versus Matt Lindlin.

02:20:04.000 I screwed up.

02:20:05.000 Oh yeah, that was a crazy one.

02:20:07.000 I screwed up.

02:20:08.000 Explain that.

02:20:09.000 And trust me, from that point...

02:20:10.000 Well, I'll explain real quick.

02:20:12.000 Matt Lindlin got caught in an arm bar, tapped, said he didn't tap.

02:20:17.000 You listened to him.

02:20:18.000 You said, okay, go back again.

02:20:19.000 He's like, Jesus Christ.

02:20:21.000 And then you realize you'd made this big mistake.

02:20:23.000 Huge.

02:20:23.000 Matt Lindland, who was a great competitor, but maybe perhaps a little bit over-enthusiastic about the outcome, was willing to bend the rules a little bit.

02:20:31.000 Well, and that's his job.

02:20:32.000 I don't have a problem with that.

02:20:34.000 Sure.

02:20:34.000 The problem is the referee who is not decisive.

02:20:38.000 Right.

02:20:39.000 So you had made that error.

02:20:40.000 I saw it too bad.

02:20:41.000 Yeah.

02:20:41.000 Because I second-guessed myself.

02:20:42.000 Right.

02:20:43.000 And I said, oh my God, it wasn't a tap.

02:20:45.000 Because he was so enthusiastic about, adamant about the fact you didn't tap.

02:20:48.000 Exactly.

02:20:48.000 And John, I did not, and it was like, did I make a mistake?

02:20:51.000 Right.

02:20:51.000 And at the time, I couldn't.

02:20:52.000 There was no instant replay.

02:20:53.000 Well, I couldn't put him back in even the same position.

02:20:55.000 Right.

02:20:56.000 Because at the time, if I interfered with the fight, the rules said that I must put them to their corners and restart the fight.

02:21:03.000 Right.

02:21:04.000 Wow.

02:21:04.000 So you just ate it.

02:21:06.000 Oh, yeah.

02:21:07.000 You just ate it.

02:21:08.000 I ate it.

02:21:09.000 Murillo ate it.

02:21:10.000 And I felt horrible for that.

02:21:11.000 Well, Murillo fortunately came back and caught him in a guillotine.

02:21:14.000 Went another full round, I believe.

02:21:16.000 It went into that next round.

02:21:17.000 Yeah.

02:21:17.000 And I felt, dude, to this day.

02:21:20.000 That still drives me crazy.

02:21:23.000 Murillo's a guy that people forget.

02:21:25.000 Oh, yeah.

02:21:26.000 Who was one of the very best ever.

02:21:28.000 Carlson's guys.

02:21:28.000 Another Carlson guy.

02:21:29.000 Yep.

02:21:29.000 But just phenomenal jiu-jitsu.

02:21:32.000 I mean, when he was in his prime, when he was a UFC middleweight champion, he left the UFC as the middleweight champion, I believe.

02:21:39.000 Nah.

02:21:39.000 Did he lose the title in the UFC? Yeah.

02:21:41.000 Who did he lose to?

02:21:43.000 I feel like he left as champion.

02:21:45.000 He might have.

02:21:46.000 I think he left as champion and went to Pride, if I remember correctly.

02:21:49.000 I'm foggy on this.

02:21:50.000 He got beat by Dan Henderson in Pride.

02:21:53.000 Yep.

02:21:53.000 Yeah.

02:21:54.000 He might have walked out and walked away and gone there.

02:21:57.000 You're right.

02:21:57.000 But he was...

02:21:59.000 Remember when he fought Big Tom Erickson in that fucking one-off?

02:22:04.000 That started...

02:22:04.000 See, they're right there.

02:22:05.000 That fight...

02:22:06.000 People talk about the rules, and that fight, there's a rule because of it.

02:22:10.000 When you sit there and you have a fighter, you had Tom Erickson being the big 290-pound wrestler.

02:22:16.000 He was fucking huge at the time.

02:22:18.000 Oh, the cat, the big cat.

02:22:19.000 Against Murillo, he goes to the ground with Murillo and goes, fuck that, I'm not going to be on the ground with this guy, I'm in danger.

02:22:26.000 He gets up and decides, I'm going to be a boxer, and Murillo's like, I don't want to stand up with that dude hits hard for a two- He hit very hard.

02:22:35.000 Remember when he knocked out Kevin Randleman in Brazil?

02:22:37.000 Oh, yeah.

02:22:39.000 Tom Erickson got fucking banged.

02:22:41.000 Oh, yeah.

02:22:41.000 But Murillo is chasing him on his butt, and Erickson's backing away, and it looked horrible.

02:22:47.000 So we said that was when we came up with, lookit, we've got to have one fighter in control of it, the person that's standing.

02:22:54.000 If they back away from their opponent, to this day you watch fighters, you see the referee coming, you gotta get up.

02:23:00.000 That was like a 30 minute fight, right?

02:23:04.000 Wasn't it?

02:23:05.000 It was one of those crazy ones.

02:23:06.000 It was horrible, but it taught us a lot.

02:23:10.000 Wasn't that the same event where Oleg Tektarov up-kicked, or Henzo Bracey up-kicked Oleg Tektarov and KO'd him?

02:23:16.000 The Mars event.

02:23:17.000 Yes, that's right.

02:23:18.000 The Mars event.

02:23:19.000 What did that stand for?

02:23:21.000 Martial Arts Reality Super Fights.

02:23:26.000 Why do people like acronyms?

02:23:28.000 I don't know.

02:23:29.000 I tried to get away from an LAPD because that's all they did.

02:23:31.000 Well, because the UFC is so good.

02:23:33.000 It's such a good acronym.

02:23:34.000 That's not even an acronym, though.

02:23:36.000 That's just the initials that people use.

02:23:37.000 You're right.

02:23:38.000 You're right.

02:23:38.000 It's not like Mars.

02:23:39.000 Yeah.

02:23:39.000 But what is it called when it's not an acronym and it's three?

02:23:43.000 It's just an abbreviation?

02:23:44.000 What is it?

02:23:45.000 I don't know.

02:23:45.000 It's like NFL. What is that called?

02:23:47.000 I forget that.

02:23:47.000 That's a word.

02:23:48.000 I just learned it recently.

02:23:48.000 I never know that word.

02:23:51.000 But people just try to recreate something like that.

02:23:54.000 They try to, the IFC or whatever the fuck, they try to come up with something.

02:23:58.000 Well, you'd talk to Lorenzo, and his thing was, in the end, I bought three letters.

02:24:04.000 I bought the UFC. And the Octagon.

02:24:07.000 Yeah.

02:24:08.000 I mean, to this day, right?

02:24:10.000 Bellator has to use a circle.

02:24:11.000 Circle's better.

02:24:12.000 Ooh, someone's talking shit.

02:24:15.000 Someone's talking shit.

02:24:16.000 That has nothing to do with UFC. You talk about your basketball court.

02:24:24.000 Well...

02:24:25.000 Any corner creates a problem.

02:24:26.000 I get it.

02:24:27.000 So the circle at least is there's nothing different in any section of that to where those two points come together for the octagon.

02:24:36.000 I can see that logic.

02:24:39.000 The safest environment for fighters is actually the cage because it contains them.

02:24:45.000 If you watch Bellator kickboxing, you see that what they do is they do a kickboxing and an MMA show in the same night, same day.

02:24:54.000 I was just going to say that.

02:24:55.000 I think they do the best ring for boxing.

02:24:57.000 And why?

02:24:58.000 The guy can't fall out of it.

02:25:00.000 When Bernard Hopkins in his last fight against Joe Smith, he got knocked out and fell through and hit his fucking head on the ground.

02:25:06.000 It was a terrible loss.

02:25:07.000 I mean, this is a guy who is one of the greatest of all time.

02:25:09.000 But you look at the ropes compared to the end of the...

02:25:11.000 Not much space.

02:25:12.000 It's ridiculous.

02:25:13.000 But whereas the ring sitting in the Bellator cage circle, there's plenty of room.

02:25:17.000 Everything is safe.

02:25:18.000 So you fall through the rope, it's all safe.

02:25:19.000 Yep.

02:25:20.000 Yeah, I agree.

02:25:20.000 I think it's smart.

02:25:21.000 But you'll get promoters that don't want that because...

02:25:25.000 Takes away seating.

02:25:26.000 Space on the ground.

02:25:28.000 Monsters.

02:25:30.000 It's crazy, but that's the way they are.

02:25:32.000 Well, listen, Big John, I'm glad we finally got a chance to do this.

02:25:35.000 It's been a pleasure to be your friend.

02:25:36.000 It's been a pleasure knowing you all these years, and you are the OG of OGs.

02:25:40.000 Well, thank you.

02:25:41.000 I appreciate it.

02:25:41.000 Let's do this again sometime, man.

02:25:43.000 Absolutely.

02:25:43.000 For sure.

02:25:44.000 And congratulations on your success with Bellator.

02:25:46.000 I think you're doing a great job over there, and I'm happy they're doing really well, too.

02:25:51.000 Thank you, brother.

02:25:51.000 I appreciate it, man.

02:25:52.000 Big John McCarthy, motherfuckers.

The Joe Rogan Experience - June 16, 2010

JRE MMA Show #26 with Big John McCarthy

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