The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #42 with Teddy Atlas

00:00:02.000 Four, three, two, one.

00:00:07.000 And we're live, Teddy Atlas.

00:00:08.000 Thanks for being here, man.

00:00:09.000 I really appreciate it.

00:00:10.000 So I'm a minute late on my own.

00:00:12.000 Dad, you keep saying that.

00:00:13.000 Stop.

00:00:13.000 Make you guys get anyone out there mad at you.

00:00:17.000 No one's mad at anything.

00:00:18.000 There's no real set time.

00:00:20.000 You know, I got to tell you, since I announced you're going to be on the podcast, I had about 100 people tell me to get you mad.

00:00:25.000 They want you to rant and get screamed.

00:00:27.000 Ever since the We're Firemen speech you gave to Tim Bradley, everybody wants you to start screaming and get mad.

00:00:34.000 You get people hyped up.

00:00:35.000 Well, hopefully if there's only an occasion for it.

00:00:39.000 And I don't think there'll be an occasion.

00:00:41.000 No.

00:00:43.000 I'm looking at this stuff here.

00:00:44.000 You got a nice place here, by the way.

00:00:46.000 Thank you.

00:00:47.000 And it's making me think about the Denzel Washington movie, The Equal Eyes, the first one, where he was in with those Russian guys that were like messed up guys. 1.00

00:00:56.000 And he was trying to protect that girl.

00:00:58.000 And he started pointing, there were skulls and stuff at the guy's desk, you know.

00:01:04.000 Yeah.

00:01:05.000 He was pointing this stuff.

00:01:07.000 He was trying to explain to the guy, listen, let this girl go.

00:01:10.000 You know, I'll give you $9,000, whatever it was.

00:01:13.000 Let her go. 0.99

00:01:13.000 She was like 15 years old. 0.99

00:01:15.000 And he didn't want to listen to him.

00:01:18.000 And so he started, they had stuff like this with this skull.

00:01:22.000 I don't know if the people could see it.

00:01:24.000 And he started pointing it towards him.

00:01:26.000 The guy didn't take the hint.

00:01:30.000 About a couple of minutes later, he killed everybody in the room.

00:01:33.000 But it looks exactly like the thing from that movie, Denzel Washington, where he also had guns and stuff.

00:01:44.000 There he is right there.

00:01:44.000 There's the scene.

00:01:45.000 Jamie pulled the scene up.

00:01:46.000 Oh, really?

00:01:47.000 I never saw that movie.

00:01:49.000 Yeah, so you see there's a scene where he starts pointing.

00:01:54.000 They might have taken this from here.

00:01:56.000 I mean, they could have gotten it from you.

00:01:57.000 That's from Mexico.

00:01:58.000 The props.

00:02:00.000 So he pointed it all towards the guy to kind of warn the guy what was coming next.

00:02:06.000 Tenzo, that movie is probably the only good movie that ever came out of a terrible TV series.

00:02:12.000 You remember the TV series The Equalizer?

00:02:15.000 I remember the name, but I don't know that I ever really watched it. 0.99

00:02:19.000 It was a fat, sloppy, white guy driving a Jaguar that supposedly kicked everybody's ass. 1.00

00:02:23.000 And you'd watch it and you'd go, get the fuck out of here with this movie. 1.00

00:02:27.000 No, I didn't watch it. 0.99

00:02:29.000 I heard it, Tom. 0.99

00:02:30.000 It was just a dumb TV show that didn't make any sense. 0.63

00:02:33.000 And when they turned it into a movie and had Denzel Washington in it, I'm like, what? 0.87

00:02:37.000 How is this possible?

00:02:38.000 I'm gonna turn this guy I think.

00:02:40.000 Is he freaking you out?

00:02:41.000 Not really but like I was just thinking about that.

00:02:47.000 So listen man you were you just came back from the Canelo Triple G fight which was a phenomenal fight.

00:02:54.000 That was a phenomenal fight.

00:02:55.000 I really enjoyed that fight.

00:02:56.000 I think people exaggerate how good fights are nowadays like if they're around everything's great.

00:03:01.000 I think everything, if a pitcher has one good year in baseball, he's great.

00:03:06.000 He's like the next Sandy Colfax.

00:03:08.000 Like, people don't wait to see and truly grade it against things that were out of their era.

00:03:17.000 Because, you know, we're human.

00:03:19.000 Like, hey, I was there.

00:03:21.000 I reported on it.

00:03:23.000 It's the greatest fight ever.

00:03:25.000 You really think so?

00:03:26.000 No, no, but that's what people do when they're there.

00:03:28.000 That's what they do.

00:03:28.000 Right, right, right.

00:03:29.000 I think it was a really good fight.

00:03:30.000 Yeah.

00:03:31.000 But everything's relative, you know?

00:03:33.000 And it depends on everything is influenced.

00:03:38.000 The judgment of people is influenced, at least I see it in my view, for whatever that's worth, by what's around and how hungry they are.

00:03:49.000 Like, everybody bought the Pacquiao-Mayweather first fight because the fans were hungry.

00:03:55.000 Their imagination was like, there's no good fights.

00:03:57.000 This is going to be a good fight.

00:03:59.000 So, they're anticipating it.

00:04:02.000 So, you got them at the right time.

00:04:03.000 If it was the 80s and you had Lennon, Duran, Penel Whitaker.

00:04:07.000 Hagler.

00:04:08.000 Hagler.

00:04:09.000 You know, you had Hearns.

00:04:12.000 I mean, you had all these great fights.

00:04:14.000 Aaron Pryor.

00:04:15.000 You had all these guys fighting each other.

00:04:17.000 You probably couldn't have pulled off the Mayweather-Pacquiao thing that you pulled off, and it turned out to be a bit of a, I don't want to say scam, but it definitely wasn't what it lived up to be.

00:04:33.000 Wasn't that because Pacquiao came into the fight injured?

00:04:35.000 I don't believe it.

00:04:37.000 I never saw any, listen, I'm not saying he didn't have an injury, but you're in a tough business.

00:04:43.000 You were in Taekwondo and all that kind of fighting stuff and MMA and Whatever part of it, I'm probably not giving it the proper understanding of what it was and exactly what part of the fighting, not just MMA, I'm being too broad,

00:04:58.000 but I know you did taekwondo, you did kickboxing, I know that you're You were a national champion when you were young.

00:05:05.000 Somebody showed me something about it.

00:05:07.000 So you do things when you're injured.

00:05:12.000 I mean, like, when are you not injured?

00:05:14.000 If you're a football player, if you're a fighter, if you're in the contact business, tell me when you're not injured, like when there's not something wrong.

00:05:20.000 So I never saw proof during that bout.

00:05:23.000 I was there covering it for ESPN. I never saw proof where he winced or he didn't throw that hand or he threw it in a...

00:05:32.000 In a poor way or in a less than high level way.

00:05:36.000 I never saw that.

00:05:38.000 So listen, I'm not in his body, you know, and I'm not a mind reader.

00:05:43.000 But I didn't see it.

00:05:46.000 But what I did see, I saw him and his trainer...

00:05:49.000 In the runway was more telling to me taking selfies because they had got paid a few extra dollars to promote some kind of product where the selfies were attached to it.

00:06:03.000 So I saw that.

00:06:04.000 To me that was more debilitating to see a guy before the biggest fight of his life where people were going crazy and gonna break the pay-per-view record and paying $100 for the freaking thing.

00:06:16.000 To see him taking a selfie when the mentality should be in a different place and normally is in a different place before you're about to walk that hundred yards to the ring where you might not come out of there.

00:06:28.000 It's always possible.

00:06:29.000 You have to have that mentality.

00:06:30.000 I thought that was more debilitating than anything I saw physically with what was supposed to be an arm injury.

00:06:37.000 So...

00:06:38.000 To me, look, to me, I don't know if it's fair to say it was a money grab, but obviously it was a bit of a money grab.

00:06:49.000 They were beyond themselves.

00:06:52.000 You know, one guy was retired.

00:06:53.000 He came back for it.

00:06:55.000 They were beyond the peak of their abilities in their career.

00:06:58.000 And I just didn't see that fight, the purpose to it.

00:07:07.000 Well, it happened about five, six years late.

00:07:10.000 Yeah.

00:07:12.000 I just...

00:07:13.000 I mean, what...

00:07:18.000 Everyone who gets in a ring, they deserve to make as much money as they can.

00:07:24.000 I never say that a fighter got overpaid.

00:07:27.000 Never.

00:07:28.000 I don't care.

00:07:28.000 I never say that because I understand what it took to get to that point.

00:07:33.000 But, you know, you can play with things and, you know, you can kind of lead people to things.

00:07:42.000 And again, where we started with this conversation, you know, it's the time you're around, the environment.

00:07:51.000 What's not around?

00:07:52.000 Not just what's around, but what's not around.

00:07:54.000 Right.

00:07:55.000 There's not that many great fights to be made right now, is what you're saying.

00:07:58.000 So the Triple G-Canelo fight is important because there's not a lot of guys waiting in the wings.

00:08:03.000 It's not like the old days of the 1980s or the glory days of the welterweight and middleweight division.

00:08:09.000 No, it's not.

00:08:10.000 And the people, you know, they have a thirst, if you will, to see something that the PR department can bring it, can use the right material, because there has to be fighters that obviously are marquee fighters with a name,

00:08:27.000 that they can build it and get the imagination of the people to say, this is going to be a great one.

00:08:31.000 So when they see it and they pay $100 or $85 or $95, whatever the heck they're paying...

00:08:38.000 For the fight, and then it's a good fight, well it becomes a great fight.

00:08:43.000 Because of all those elements.

00:08:45.000 Because, you know, it's during your time.

00:08:49.000 You saw it.

00:08:50.000 You committed to it.

00:08:52.000 You sacrificed to pay that money.

00:08:54.000 You sacrificed to fly there.

00:08:56.000 And, yeah, a really good fight becomes iconic.

00:09:04.000 And I don't think we separate that in our minds.

00:09:08.000 I don't think...

00:09:10.000 Hey, who says we have to?

00:09:12.000 Because, right, it's about enjoyment.

00:09:14.000 So if that makes people happy, hey, that's part of what goes into the mix of entertainment.

00:09:22.000 But I didn't see it, when I tried to separate that, being in the business, I didn't see it as, you know, the thrill in Manila.

00:09:29.000 I saw it as a really good, solid fight, and they once again, unfortunately, took away from it with controversy with the decision.

00:09:40.000 I thought the first decision was terrible.

00:09:43.000 I thought Triple G clearly won the fight.

00:09:44.000 I thought the second decision was arguable.

00:09:47.000 This looks like a draw to me.

00:09:48.000 It was an amazing fight.

00:09:50.000 I mean, I got to be honest because, I mean, that's where you're supposed to be.

00:09:54.000 Who do you think won?

00:09:55.000 I had a 117-112.

00:09:57.000 And a lot of people are going to say you had it too far.

00:10:01.000 I had it for Golovkin.

00:10:03.000 And all week long, I picked Canelo to win on ESPN on SportsCenter.

00:10:06.000 I was working.

00:10:09.000 So...

00:10:10.000 117-112 is big.

00:10:11.000 Yeah, it's five rounds.

00:10:13.000 Yeah.

00:10:14.000 Yeah, so, you know, you start to...

00:10:19.000 You're human.

00:10:20.000 You start to hear people like you, you know, that know something about fighting, that had it closer, so maybe you don't want to yell that you had a 117, 112. But yeah, you still got to yell it.

00:10:29.000 Yeah.

00:10:30.000 Because that's what you believe.

00:10:30.000 That's what you saw.

00:10:32.000 And I still say it.

00:10:34.000 I still yell it.

00:10:35.000 That it was—they didn't give them credit for jabs.

00:10:39.000 Like, jabs don't count no more.

00:10:40.000 Right.

00:10:42.000 I'm not going to pick out anybody because that's not really fair to do when you have a podium and they don't have a podium, but sometimes it is because they deserve it, but not generally.

00:10:58.000 And the judges nowadays, I think that they just give it, I see too often that That they almost go down the easy route.

00:11:12.000 Like, you know, they just give it to who's aggressive.

00:11:17.000 A guy's walking forward, a guy's throwing punches.

00:11:19.000 It's like they're favoring that guy.

00:11:21.000 And it's more to it than that.

00:11:23.000 And I understand that the sport doesn't help itself.

00:11:25.000 They don't make a clear criterion.

00:11:27.000 But it's supposed to be clean, harder, effective punches.

00:11:31.000 Because the separation of professional boxing and amateur boxing is...

00:11:36.000 You have to sell it.

00:11:37.000 You have to make money.

00:11:38.000 And you've got to put fannies in the seats. 1.00

00:11:40.000 So you want to see guys get hurt.

00:11:42.000 You want to see guys impact guys.

00:11:44.000 So it's the cleaner who hurts the guy more.

00:11:46.000 It's the cleaner, more impactful punches.

00:11:48.000 But it's not just throwing.

00:11:49.000 It's not just aggression.

00:11:51.000 Because the aggression has to lead to something effective.

00:11:56.000 Effective aggression.

00:11:57.000 So I saw, for me, to get it to that 117, 112, I saw...

00:12:05.000 Golovkin, on the outside, controlling range, controlling distance.

00:12:10.000 You want to use that silly word, ring generalship?

00:12:13.000 Because half the time, I don't know what they're talking about.

00:12:15.000 They say ring generalship.

00:12:17.000 What are you talking about?

00:12:18.000 I just saw the way you judged it.

00:12:20.000 Where did you fit in ring generalship into that?

00:12:24.000 Into your thinking, because I'd like to know.

00:12:26.000 But if it is ring generalship, he was controlling the range.

00:12:30.000 He was controlling the outside.

00:12:31.000 He was keeping the shorter man on the outside, catching him with the champ, making him earn his way in, making him pay a price to get in.

00:12:39.000 Now, was the other guy, Canelo being the other guy, landing the hard, clean body shots that sometimes you don't get credit for?

00:12:46.000 Yeah, he was.

00:12:47.000 Like I say on ESPN, he was putting water in the basement.

00:12:50.000 Yeah, he definitely was.

00:12:52.000 But...

00:12:54.000 The jab didn't count suddenly.

00:12:55.000 We're suddenly in a universe where the jab of a guy doesn't mean anything when we don't want it to mean anything, when we want to give it to the aggressive guy, to the guy trying to get in there.

00:13:08.000 The question is, what's more important?

00:13:10.000 Is a jab more important or a hook to the body?

00:13:12.000 What is more important in your eyes?

00:13:13.000 Hook to the body clean is more important.

00:13:15.000 More important.

00:13:15.000 But if the jab outnumbers the hooks to the body through many rounds and the numbers are significant that it's greater than, then you have to account for that.

00:13:27.000 Right.

00:13:28.000 So you think that people are watching, they're watching a couple of jabs and then one hook to the body and they count that one hook to the body better than they count the two jabs.

00:13:35.000 And I don't have a problem with that because I counted that way too.

00:13:38.000 If it's a good shot.

00:13:39.000 Yeah, because again...

00:13:41.000 A power shot.

00:13:42.000 Yeah, because that is what's going to drive people to the event.

00:13:45.000 Right.

00:13:46.000 To the sport.

00:13:47.000 It's the harder puncher.

00:13:48.000 So I have no problem with that.

00:13:49.000 But if the jabs are 20 jabs, and it's two body punches, well then I'm starting to say we can't forget the jabs because the body puncher's got your attention.

00:14:01.000 And, you know...

00:14:04.000 Moved you out of your seat a little bit, maybe, for whatever reason.

00:14:08.000 So I'm just saying that the criterion is not clean enough for the judges sometimes.

00:14:20.000 I mean, I think the problem with judging is the same in both sports.

00:14:24.000 You should have someone who has experience in the sport.

00:14:27.000 I mean, they have to have a deep understanding of what they're actually watching and that's not the case.

00:14:31.000 I know it's not the case in boxing because I know a lot of the same judges from boxing also judge MMA. They don't know what they're talking about in MMA and I don't think they know what they're talking about in boxing either.

00:14:41.000 And that's a real travesty.

00:14:43.000 It's a huge disservice to these professional athletes who literally are, as you said, Risking everything as they step in there, there's a real good chance that they might not come out.

00:14:53.000 I mean, it happens every so many fights a guy dies.

00:14:56.000 This is just a fact in boxing.

00:14:59.000 Football too.

00:15:00.000 Football too, sure.

00:15:01.000 And MMA as well.

00:15:02.000 Well, MMA has plenty of problems. 1.00

00:15:04.000 You know, I mean, there's less deaths in MMA, but we're getting deaths from weigh-ins.

00:15:09.000 You know, we have a lot of extreme weight cutting issues in some of the smaller organizations in particular.

00:15:13.000 All of that stuff is legitimate.

00:15:15.000 It's a problem.

00:15:16.000 Something that should be looked at.

00:15:18.000 It's just a shame that the judging is so poor and it's been this way for so long.

00:15:22.000 Well, see, the boxing...

00:15:25.000 I mean, you have a...

00:15:26.000 And I'm not saying this in a derogatory way.

00:15:29.000 In some ways, it's a good way.

00:15:31.000 But you have a dictator running, you know, UFC. No, but it's okay to have a dictator sometimes.

00:15:38.000 Because at least you have rules that are adhered to.

00:15:41.000 At least you have structure.

00:15:43.000 And, you know, as long as they're not, you know, taking people out and killing them.

00:15:47.000 I know what you're saying.

00:15:48.000 And so, boxing has...

00:15:53.000 Boxing has no real accountability, no structure across the board, no real lateral structure and conformity.

00:16:05.000 Nothing unilateral because you have different states that have different commissions and they're supposed to be tied together but they all act differently.

00:16:14.000 And there's no national commission.

00:16:16.000 There's no body.

00:16:17.000 There's no dictator.

00:16:18.000 There's no czar.

00:16:19.000 There's no NBA commissioner.

00:16:22.000 There's no NFL commissioner.

00:16:23.000 There's no MLB commissioner that overlooks and polices the whole sport.

00:16:28.000 And there's no separation of...

00:16:33.000 Church and state, so to speak, where the people making the money in the sport are separated, truly separated, from the people supposedly administrating the sport.

00:16:42.000 There's no separation.

00:16:44.000 I mean, promoters actually that are making the money and have obviously a horse that's running in the game, so to speak, that night, that they want that fighter to win, they pay the judges.

00:16:59.000 And there's no...

00:17:01.000 Again, there's no buffer.

00:17:03.000 There's no separation where you can have promoters and managers that can actually go to the commission and say, we don't want these judges to judge.

00:17:13.000 They can't say, put this judge in, but they can knock judges out.

00:17:17.000 And the commissions will listen to them. 0.96

00:17:19.000 The alphabet organizations, they're corrupt. 0.97

00:17:23.000 They are. 0.91

00:17:24.000 I mean, it's not Teddy Atlas saying it.

00:17:26.000 It's everybody saying it.

00:17:27.000 There's very few people that are going to say they're not corrupt. 0.98

00:17:29.000 Well, they're corrupt.

00:17:30.000 I mean, if you're going to be honest about it and you don't have an agenda where you're afraid to say it because you have an agenda, which a lot of people do in my business.

00:17:37.000 They have an agenda, so they're not going to say it because they're part of it.

00:17:40.000 If they're not part of it, they're...

00:17:44.000 They're friendly with people that are part of it.

00:17:46.000 And they want to have access.

00:17:48.000 They want to have relationships.

00:17:49.000 So they stay away from it.

00:17:50.000 And they understand how the corruption works.

00:17:53.000 So they understand, you know, is it a smoky room with cigars like the old days where Frankie Carbo was running things and you put an envelope?

00:18:02.000 No, it's not that.

00:18:03.000 But you might be paying $30,000 for an ad at a convention for the WBA or the WBC or the WIBF or WBO or whatever the heck they are, and you might be paying $30,000 for an ad.

00:18:19.000 You know why you paid the $30,000 for that.

00:18:22.000 I don't think that you just like to see your name in the ad, in the brochure.

00:18:28.000 There was a purpose behind paying that ad.

00:18:36.000 You have the administrators of the sport, the commissions, and then you have the alphabet organizations that get paid a sanctioning fee from the champion.

00:18:48.000 So they want that champion to win.

00:18:50.000 And so they get the sanctioning fee.

00:18:52.000 And especially if he's a popular champion.

00:18:55.000 So now you have...

00:19:00.000 Nobody's saying, well, the manager can't talk to the sanctioned organization.

00:19:05.000 Of course they can talk to them and say, I want my guys rated high.

00:19:09.000 Of course they have access.

00:19:11.000 So they have access to talking to somebody, influencing somebody, to move their guy up in the ratings.

00:19:18.000 These are honest ratings.

00:19:20.000 And they have access to telling an organization, well, you know, I'd like to push Mandatory.

00:19:28.000 I'd like to push my guy to get the mandatory, which means, of course, that he's got to fight him within a certain period of time.

00:19:34.000 He's got to fight the champion.

00:19:36.000 That's missing in MMA. Yeah.

00:19:37.000 That's absolutely missing in MMA. So you have all that stuff going on.

00:19:42.000 And where is the...

00:19:48.000 Where's the oversight?

00:19:49.000 Yeah, where's the oversight?

00:19:50.000 Where's the policing?

00:19:51.000 Where's the line?

00:19:55.000 Because again, people making money, people running the sport, people making money, people administrating the sport, it's not supposed to blur.

00:20:03.000 There's supposed to be a separation.

00:20:05.000 Now, if you know where to go, In Europe, America, United States too, but all through Europe where there's a lot of big fights.

00:20:15.000 There was just a big fight with Joshua.

00:20:17.000 In London, they drew 90,000 people, which is good for the sport, and it's incredible.

00:20:23.000 But if you know where restaurant to go to the night before big fight, you will walk in a restaurant.

00:20:31.000 I've been there.

00:20:33.000 You will walk in the restaurant.

00:20:34.000 I'm not going to say something if I can't stand behind it.

00:20:38.000 And you will see at the restaurant, it's a big table, kind of like, you know, not the Last Supper, but it's a big table.

00:20:47.000 And you will see all the officials at that table that are going to work to fight the next night.

00:20:52.000 And you will see the organizational heads, the heads of that sanctioned body and the guys that are in charge, the presidents, vice presidents.

00:21:02.000 Supervisors, judges, referees.

00:21:04.000 And guess who the host of the dinner is?

00:21:06.000 The promoter.

00:21:08.000 Something wrong with that.

00:21:10.000 I mean, there's something greatly wrong with that.

00:21:12.000 So the host of the dinner, and it's a big bill, obviously.

00:21:15.000 I mean, it's a lot of people.

00:21:16.000 It's a good restaurant.

00:21:18.000 They're eating all the best stuff, drinking the best wines and everything else.

00:21:21.000 So it's a big bill.

00:21:23.000 And it's being picked up by the promoter who wants a specific fighter to win that night.

00:21:29.000 And he's got access to all the judges, all the officials, all All the organizational heads.

00:21:37.000 Now, so I would say to the people that are listening out there that just to make the analogy that really I think would hit home, the New York Yankees, they're obviously a universally known name and brand,

00:21:57.000 organization, maybe the biggest of all time.

00:22:02.000 So how about in New York, you go to the best restaurant, and the night before a World Series game, you walked into the restaurant and you saw all the umpiring crew, all the officials that are in charge of the umpiring for the World Series game,

00:22:19.000 sitting at a dinner hosted by the Steinbrenners.

00:22:23.000 Problem, problem, problem, problem.

00:22:26.000 Yeah.

00:22:26.000 Giant problem.

00:22:27.000 Yeah.

00:22:28.000 And it can't happen because the commission would never let that happen because the integrity, the credibility of the sport would be down the tubes in one moment before you could finish your shrimp cocktail.

00:22:41.000 So it can't happen.

00:22:43.000 Yeah, it goes unchecked in boxing.

00:22:44.000 But it happens all the time in boxing.

00:22:47.000 And just the look of impropriety is wrong.

00:22:53.000 It should be wrong.

00:22:54.000 It should be wrong in baseball.

00:22:55.000 It should be wrong in football.

00:22:57.000 It should be wrong in NBA. But it should be even more wrong in a sport where you risk so much.

00:23:03.000 Yeah.

00:23:03.000 No, I agree.

00:23:05.000 Yeah, it's a very, very good point.

00:23:06.000 And I don't know how you would ever fix that.

00:23:08.000 I mean, how would you have some universal oversight over the entire sport?

00:23:12.000 And how would you get everybody from the WBO, WBC, WBA? Nobody cares enough.

00:23:17.000 They wouldn't.

00:23:17.000 No, no, they don't care enough because the President of the United States started caring when there was a problem with baseball.

00:23:23.000 He got involved.

00:23:24.000 That was about steroids, though, right?

00:23:26.000 Yeah, but it was a problem. 0.97

00:23:27.000 But wasn't that a horseshit problem?

00:23:29.000 I mean, it was a real problem, but it was more of a problem of they wanted to clean up the image because it's America's sport.

00:23:34.000 And they had these people, the Mark McGuire's and Sammy Sosa's.

00:23:38.000 They worried about where the fans were going to leave the game a little bit.

00:23:40.000 Right.

00:23:40.000 So it was a problem.

00:23:42.000 It was a problem.

00:23:43.000 It was impacting them.

00:23:44.000 It was impacting...

00:23:45.000 Listen, it was impacting the perception of the game, which impacted the...

00:23:53.000 Right.

00:24:14.000 So it was a problem, and they cared.

00:24:20.000 I'm going to be careful saying this, but not that careful, because you have to say it.

00:24:25.000 I don't think that they care as much about the people in boxing.

00:24:30.000 I don't think they do either.

00:24:31.000 I just...

00:24:32.000 It's more of a dangerous, dirty sport in their eyes.

00:24:35.000 Yeah.

00:24:36.000 And the people that come into it and everything else, I'm not going to get into all the other stuff that you could get into that is so popular to get into in some ways nowadays.

00:24:45.000 You mean like racism?

00:24:46.000 Yeah.

00:24:46.000 I'm not going to get into that because...

00:24:50.000 I don't want to, and I don't have definitive things to show for that.

00:24:56.000 I just know how I feel.

00:24:57.000 Well, the perception of the sport, it's not cherished the way baseball is cherished.

00:25:03.000 When there's a big fight like Canelo and Triple G, people get excited, and a lot of people will buy it, but it's not necessarily thought of as something that represents America.

00:25:12.000 And particularly in Canelo and Triple G, you're talking about two people that aren't American to begin with. 1.00

00:25:16.000 Yes.

00:25:17.000 Yeah.

00:25:18.000 And there's a history to boxing, though, that unfortunately, you know, because I care about the sports for my whole life, That it's kind of corrupt.

00:25:28.000 Yeah.

00:25:29.000 It's got a reputation as being corrupt.

00:25:30.000 Yeah, and unfortunately, fortunately and unfortunately, there's a good part where the history goes back farther than any other sport.

00:25:41.000 Any other sport.

00:25:42.000 I mean, it was the first sport in the Olympics.

00:25:44.000 It goes back further.

00:25:46.000 And it was the biggest sport in this country, bigger than baseball at one time.

00:25:50.000 It was that big.

00:25:52.000 I mean, you know, so...

00:25:55.000 And now it's not.

00:25:58.000 And it's too bad.

00:26:01.000 And it's too bad that the kids, that the younger people, they don't have the ability to...

00:26:10.000 Learn about those fighters, those special fighters that were special.

00:26:14.000 They really were.

00:26:15.000 And they were special for different reasons.

00:26:17.000 Like Jackie Robinson was special, we know.

00:26:19.000 We don't have to go into why he was special. 0.87

00:26:21.000 But nobody knows that Joe Lewis, he was quiet and everything, but when he was in the Army and there was segregation and all that crap going on... 0.96

00:26:32.000 And he quietly used his position as heavyweight champ of the world to make sure that when he went to movies and they put him in the front row and he saw that blacks weren't allowed to come in, he said, I'm not going in there unless blacks can come in there. 1.00

00:26:49.000 When he went to other sort of events where the same kind of junk was going on, he very quietly but powerfully... 0.52

00:27:01.000 Integrated things and said, no, I'm going to make a change here.

00:27:04.000 You're not going to have me and not have people that look like me kept out.

00:27:12.000 And there were people, I've read about it, because I like reading about those things, about history, to see how we could be better and where we've come from.

00:27:22.000 And there were history of black families, poor black families that would get hope From just saying, hey, Lewis did it. 0.50

00:27:32.000 They would tell their kids, hey, Joe, listen, I don't want to hear this.

00:27:36.000 I don't want to hear that you can't do this.

00:27:38.000 Joe Lewis did it.

00:27:39.000 And so he was that important.

00:27:41.000 That's the only point I'm making here.

00:27:43.000 He was that...

00:27:45.000 It's freaking important that that history and the history of other fighters like him, doesn't have to be black fighters, but that what they did, what they overcame, where they came from.

00:27:58.000 Betty Leonard, one of the greatest Jewish fighters of all time.

00:28:01.000 It was a time when, and it's still around unfortunately, there's a lot of anti-Semitism, but there was a time where You know, it was tough being a Jew.

00:28:11.000 And you're growing up and you get called a kike.

00:28:16.000 I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right.

00:28:17.000 I think it was, right?

00:28:18.000 And you get called all those kind of, I don't even know what the hell it means.

00:28:20.000 I just know it's a bad name to call a Jew.

00:28:24.000 And you had all that stuff going on, and Jews women thought of being, they were thought of moving towards banking, and they were moving towards things, we were making money, and later on they started doing that. 0.89

00:28:37.000 But they were in the ghettos, and they were trying to pull themselves out.

00:28:41.000 And so at that era, during that time, the 20s to 30s, the Jews were some of the best fighters, because that was their way of getting out. 1.00

00:28:51.000 There was another significance to being a Jewish fighter that a lot of the kids, they weren't thought of as being tough, so they got picked on and thought of that they're going to go more towards academic and other stuff.

00:29:07.000 So there was a weakness perceived.

00:29:09.000 Not true.

00:29:11.000 None of this stuff is usually...

00:29:12.000 Just perceived because they were smart.

00:29:13.000 Yeah.

00:29:13.000 So now all of a sudden Benny Leonard comes along when the sport's the biggest sport in the country and he's the best freaking fighter in the game.

00:29:23.000 And he combed his hair before he got in the ring and he would come out without it being messed.

00:29:32.000 And this was, this guy was, I mean, he was, he was Michael Jordan.

00:29:36.000 I mean, before that stuff, before Michael Jordan, before Ed Jordan, before anything.

00:29:40.000 I mean, this guy was not only tough, he was not only a champion, which obviously connected to being tough by itself, but he was, he was smart.

00:29:51.000 He was, he was cool.

00:29:53.000 He had pizazz.

00:29:54.000 He was a man.

00:29:56.000 And there were Jewish families.

00:29:58.000 You don't hear about these stories, but there were Jewish families I've read and I've heard from people where say, hey, don't let nobody pick on you.

00:30:10.000 Benny Leonard is the best fighter in the world.

00:30:13.000 Jews are tough. 1.00

00:30:15.000 We're not just smart. 0.98

00:30:17.000 We're tough.

00:30:19.000 Benny Leonard shows that.

00:30:22.000 So that kind of history, that kind of pulling of people up in many different ways, not just economically out of poverty, but emotionally, mentally.

00:30:36.000 Because you can be in poverty mentally.

00:30:38.000 You can be in low place mentally.

00:30:41.000 It doesn't have to be, you know, financially all the time.

00:30:45.000 You know, where you have holes in your shoes and you're wearing shirts that don't fit.

00:30:50.000 No, it can be the way you feel about yourself that is without prosperity, without value.

00:31:00.000 You have no value for yourself as a person. 0.97

00:31:02.000 That's the worst poverty in the freaking world. 0.99

00:31:06.000 There's nothing lower than that. 0.97

00:31:08.000 And Joe Louis and Benny Leonard, they were fighters.

00:31:11.000 They weren't baseball players.

00:31:12.000 They pulled people out of those places.

00:31:15.000 They let people know they had value, that their race had value, their people had value.

00:31:21.000 They had value.

00:31:22.000 And that should be known.

00:31:24.000 And you can go anywhere, and I'm glad you can, because I love all sports.

00:31:29.000 You can go anywhere and you can read about the greatness of the baseball players and the greatness of, of course, NFL hasn't been around that long, but the greatness of those players and the greatness of the NBA players.

00:31:40.000 But where did the kids ever get value?

00:31:43.000 To read and to hear and to see about the greatness of these people, these fighters.

00:31:49.000 Nowhere.

00:31:51.000 Very little.

00:31:52.000 Very little.

00:31:53.000 It's not there.

00:31:54.000 Why?

00:31:55.000 Because, again, I'm not going to get into craziness, but...

00:32:01.000 The powers that be, listen, it's not marketed properly.

00:32:04.000 I get it.

00:32:05.000 It doesn't have a commission.

00:32:06.000 So it doesn't take care of itself the way the UFC, the greatness about why the UFC grew so much is they marketed themselves in a tremendous way.

00:32:14.000 So there's nobody, boxing is just there.

00:32:16.000 It takes care of itself.

00:32:17.000 It exists because it's man against man. 0.63

00:32:20.000 So it's always going to be there.

00:32:22.000 But nobody's building it.

00:32:24.000 Nobody's marketing it.

00:32:25.000 No one's feeding the monster to make it bigger.

00:32:28.000 It's a plant that's in the corner of your office that doesn't get sun, doesn't get watered, but it's still there!

00:32:37.000 It's still there!

00:32:39.000 And what I'm saying is that...

00:32:43.000 Sorry, I didn't want to yell because now people are probably happy.

00:32:46.000 But it should be fed a little bit.

00:32:54.000 It should be watered a little bit.

00:32:56.000 Because of what I just described.

00:32:58.000 Guys like you.

00:33:00.000 Guys like you.

00:33:01.000 Guys who have a deep appreciation for the history of the sport.

00:33:05.000 Guys who have a deep appreciation of what it meant when Joe Louis beat Max Schmeling.

00:33:10.000 Guys who understand what it meant when Sugar Ray Robinson was the best fighter in the world. 0.97

00:33:15.000 And everybody knew it and he'd pull up in a fucking pink Cadillac with a beautiful suit on. 0.96

00:33:19.000 And he made... 0.99

00:33:20.000 He elevated.

00:33:21.000 He elevated people in Harlem, everywhere around the world.

00:33:24.000 But Harlem, he owned half of Harlem.

00:33:26.000 He owned restaurants and stores and barbershops and everything.

00:33:31.000 And you wanted to be there because that's where Sugar Ray Robinson came from.

00:33:36.000 Yep.

00:33:37.000 It was great.

00:33:38.000 Yeah.

00:33:39.000 I mean, it's a rich part of history that really does get ignored.

00:33:42.000 Let me tell you something about Schmeling.

00:33:43.000 You brought up, you know a lot about obviously this stuff.

00:33:47.000 And that's what it's nice to talk about with you.

00:33:53.000 Schmeling was a hell of a fighter.

00:33:55.000 Joe Lewis was the brown bomb.

00:33:56.000 He was coming up.

00:33:57.000 He was undefeated.

00:34:00.000 Schmeling had the great quote before the fight.

00:34:02.000 It's kind of like the Babe Ruth thing.

00:34:04.000 Did it really happen where he pointed out and then he hit the hole?

00:34:08.000 Those are great stories.

00:34:09.000 But what's the real truth behind them?

00:34:13.000 We don't care.

00:34:15.000 We don't care at a certain point.

00:34:16.000 You know why?

00:34:17.000 Because they let us feel good.

00:34:19.000 They let us dream about possibilities.

00:34:22.000 And we should all have possibilities to dream about.

00:34:25.000 And they make somebody feel good.

00:34:28.000 Because, you know, the Babe Ruth one was connected to a sick kid.

00:34:32.000 So it's a nice thing.

00:34:34.000 It's where sports can be better than just sports.

00:34:40.000 Than just somebody participating in it.

00:34:43.000 It can go beyond that.

00:34:44.000 It can be stronger than that.

00:34:46.000 And that's some of the good stuff about it.

00:34:48.000 And so Schmeling, the great story, he didn't point to the fence, but he said before the fight, I see something.

00:35:01.000 That's my trying to be an accent for the German, you know?

00:35:06.000 But I sound more like Schultz from Hogan's Heroes.

00:35:10.000 I don't know why.

00:35:11.000 Every time you try to do something like with certain, you know, ethnic, you know, pronunciations, you sound like you go to one of those sitcoms.

00:35:21.000 You go to one of those places, you know?

00:35:22.000 And when I say somebody, I think my kid, I think my son said, you know, he had watched one of them.

00:35:29.000 And I think he said, you sound like Sergeant Shultz, like from Hogan's Heroes.

00:35:35.000 But, and he said, I see something.

00:35:38.000 And what he saw was that Lewis would jab and he would leave.

00:35:43.000 You should never leave your head on the right side because if you leave your head, you move your head to the right side, you're in a path to the right hand.

00:35:51.000 You should actually finish on the left side because then you're outside the right hand.

00:35:55.000 You follow?

00:35:56.000 Mm-hmm.

00:35:56.000 There's the right hand.

00:35:58.000 Over here, it can hit you.

00:35:59.000 Over here, you're outside it.

00:36:01.000 So he had a habit of, and he had a great trainer, he had a habit though at that point of leaving his head over on the right.

00:36:09.000 So Schmeling saw something, as he said, that he could hit him with a right hand.

00:36:14.000 He could time it over the jab.

00:36:16.000 Now Schmeling was of the ilk, of the level, of the caliber.

00:36:22.000 It wasn't just about talent.

00:36:23.000 He could punch.

00:36:24.000 He was a good fighter.

00:36:26.000 But he was a pro.

00:36:27.000 What do I mean by that?

00:36:29.000 A lot of guys would hesitate a little bit.

00:36:32.000 Same opening.

00:36:33.000 They might see it.

00:36:35.000 But it was the brown bomber who was knocking everyone out. 0.99

00:36:38.000 So they hesitate.

00:36:39.000 They were afraid.

00:36:41.000 Normal.

00:36:42.000 A lot of people are afraid of that word.

00:36:45.000 I mean, it's there.

00:36:47.000 Without it, we're not alive.

00:36:49.000 So they might see the same thing, but they want it at a pro level.

00:36:55.000 A pro level is a guy that can do what he has to do and no emotions interfere with doing it.

00:37:01.000 I mean, that's my simplest way.

00:37:03.000 Webster's might not say that, but that's what I would say.

00:37:05.000 So they might have seen the opening, but they would hesitate just enough And it'll be gone.

00:37:12.000 The door closed.

00:37:13.000 Because it's like life.

00:37:15.000 It's moments.

00:37:17.000 Capture a moment, lose a moment.

00:37:19.000 But this guy was a pro.

00:37:21.000 He didn't let that...

00:37:23.000 Come in there and make him hesitate that fear.

00:37:26.000 He controlled it.

00:37:27.000 And if the opening was there, bang!

00:37:29.000 He was gonna throw the punch.

00:37:31.000 So, he did.

00:37:32.000 And he dropped Lewis a few times and, you know, he won that fight.

00:37:37.000 And...

00:37:37.000 What round did you stop him in?

00:37:39.000 I can't remember.

00:37:40.000 Maybe the ninth.

00:37:42.000 But it was late in the fight.

00:37:43.000 But he had hurt him and Lewis was taking a beating.

00:37:49.000 So...

00:37:51.000 Lewis went on.

00:37:53.000 He won the world title.

00:37:59.000 He beat Braddock for the title.

00:38:01.000 Cinderella Man.

00:38:02.000 Great movie.

00:38:03.000 You know, he came from welfare to being a world champion.

00:38:07.000 That's the Braddock story without getting into it too much.

00:38:09.000 So, Lewis beats Braddock and had to give a percentage.

00:38:16.000 You know, Don King and Aaron might not have been around then, but the people that taught him what to do were around.

00:38:22.000 Taught him how to take advantage of fighters.

00:38:25.000 Taught him what options were before options were ever known.

00:38:29.000 You know, Braddock, I think, I forget his name, but Braddock's manager basically made Lewis and his people agree to give him a percentage of his purse for the rest of his career to get the fight.

00:38:44.000 What?

00:38:45.000 Really?

00:38:46.000 Yeah.

00:38:47.000 So, I mean, you could obviously research it and look into it.

00:38:50.000 How much percentage?

00:38:51.000 I don't know.

00:38:51.000 Listen, I could say 10%.

00:38:53.000 But I don't want to say definitively because I'm not positive.

00:38:58.000 But there was an understanding that, you know, you're not getting to fight otherwise.

00:39:03.000 Like, you want to get to fight now?

00:39:05.000 And listen, like I said, you know, not great guys, but...

00:39:11.000 King and Aram, they had other guys before them that taught them some of these moves, you know, that weren't so nice.

00:39:19.000 But there's always a history of good and bad.

00:39:23.000 Sure.

00:39:23.000 Always.

00:39:24.000 Who's good?

00:39:25.000 Well, we'll get to that.

00:39:27.000 I want to know if there's a shining star promoter out there.

00:39:32.000 I'll try to think about it.

00:39:34.000 So they go and he wins the title.

00:39:39.000 And of course, the biggest sport in the country.

00:39:42.000 So all the press is there.

00:39:45.000 Joe, you're the champion of the world.

00:39:47.000 It's not yet.

00:39:48.000 Not yet.

00:39:50.000 What do you mean not yet?

00:39:51.000 Just won the title.

00:39:52.000 Not yet.

00:39:53.000 Not till I beat that man.

00:39:55.000 He didn't even have to say his name. 0.95

00:39:57.000 Not till I beat that man.

00:39:58.000 That's how much pride he had.

00:40:00.000 And listen, he's the real deal.

00:40:03.000 Because in his mind, how can I be champion if a guy knocked me out?

00:40:07.000 Right.

00:40:08.000 So, when that fight took place, I mean, you talk about a setting, a stage.

00:40:15.000 You know, nowadays people say, oh, I'm on the stage, a lot of pressure, you know.

00:40:19.000 Hey, I'm not saying it's not.

00:40:21.000 I'm not saying it, but a lot of pressure, you know.

00:40:24.000 A lot of people looking, a lot of people, you know, depending on...

00:40:28.000 A lot of stuff going on, you know.

00:40:30.000 And, you know, maybe I got a headache.

00:40:34.000 But Joe Lewis...

00:40:36.000 We had World War II on the horizon, the President of the United States called him up, and you had Nazi Germany, you had a guy named Hitler that is saying that he's got, you know,

00:40:52.000 the master race, he's gonna take over the world, just starting that stuff, not too far away from World War II. And you got all that stuff permeating in the air.

00:41:04.000 And you got Lewis fighting a guy who, of course, you know, propaganda was started by the Germans, if you want.

00:41:12.000 To me, almost invented that word because you had the propaganda minister and you had all these terrible people with Hitler. 0.90

00:41:19.000 That were putting out that they're the master race, they're this, they're that. 1.00

00:41:22.000 You had the Jesse Owens situation in the Olympics.

00:41:25.000 And now you had the biggest sport in the biggest country and the champion of that sport, the heavyweight champ, Joe Lewis.

00:41:35.000 And he's fighting the German fighter Schmeling the second time, now for the title.

00:41:40.000 And of course you had...

00:41:44.000 Hitler and all his psychopaths, all these people, their job was to promote it, so to speak. 0.99

00:41:53.000 And they come and they're saying, we will show the world that we're superior.

00:42:00.000 And there's no better way to show it than in a ring.

00:42:04.000 And so Lewis has to...

00:42:06.000 He's got to carry all this stuff.

00:42:12.000 I mean, think about it. 0.99

00:42:13.000 And he's a black guy. 0.84

00:42:14.000 In a country that he still can't go into certain places to eat. 0.80

00:42:20.000 And he's got to carry the whole...

00:42:22.000 He's got to carry the whole country and not let them down.

00:42:28.000 And the president calls him...

00:42:30.000 And again, we don't know if this is a legendary story.

00:42:32.000 We don't know if it's completely true.

00:42:33.000 But supposedly the president called him and said, Joe, you've got to win this one for the good guys.

00:42:38.000 That's one of the legends.

00:42:40.000 I don't know if it's true, but I know that I'm sure he called him.

00:42:43.000 I'm sure he called him.

00:42:46.000 And Lewis has to go into...

00:42:50.000 He's got to go into Yankee Stadium outdoors.

00:42:55.000 And in Times Square in New York, they used to have it set up where they would, the radio, because all the fights were on radio back then.

00:43:03.000 And some of them on fights, on TV, on Gillette, Calvacator Sports and all that stuff, Friday Night Fights, but was coming along, you know, just coming along.

00:43:12.000 But radio was the thing.

00:43:15.000 And so in Times Square, you had the radio speakers outdoors.

00:43:22.000 You know, playing the fight.

00:43:24.000 Broadcasting the fight.

00:43:25.000 So people out on the streets, they hear the radio.

00:43:28.000 And they hear, you know, Joe Louis is walking into the ring.

00:43:32.000 And, you know, and you got Yankee Stadium, you got the place full, and you got the whole world of everything I just described.

00:43:42.000 The good, the bad, the evil, the ugly, everything.

00:43:45.000 It's not a movie.

00:43:47.000 It's real life.

00:43:49.000 And you got Joe Louis.

00:43:52.000 And he gets in that ring and he annihilates with all this pressure that he's got to save basically the United States and the world from looking like this ugly person. 0.68

00:44:07.000 That scourge and disease of the Nazi party is going to take over the world. 0.96

00:44:14.000 It's greater than us. 0.66

00:44:15.000 And he single-handedly has to prove that.

00:44:20.000 And he goes in there and he annihilates the guy in one round.

00:44:24.000 With all that stuff hanging over him.

00:44:26.000 I think that's the greatest single event in the history of the world.

00:44:32.000 Pull that fight up.

00:44:33.000 Pull that fight up and put it in the background.

00:44:35.000 And I think that when you talk about all the things that we're here to talk about, about character, about talent, about perseverance, about resiliency, about caring about more than yourself,

00:44:50.000 about selflessness, about strength, When you talk about all those things that we try to say that we care about and that we sometimes look to be, and very rarely can we be that,

00:45:08.000 he was all that.

00:45:10.000 He was all of that.

00:45:13.000 There it is right there.

00:45:14.000 I mean, how great is that?

00:45:17.000 And he stalked the guy.

00:45:18.000 He stalked the guy.

00:45:20.000 And his punches were short and powerful.

00:45:24.000 And he was the greatest finisher in the history of heavyweight boxing because when he hurts you, You didn't survive.

00:45:32.000 He got rid of you.

00:45:33.000 He put punches together and they were short.

00:45:35.000 And he was always in position.

00:45:37.000 Look at his legs.

00:45:38.000 He's always in position.

00:45:39.000 You move forward, he takes a little step forward back to give himself room.

00:45:43.000 The shortness of those punches is absolutely beautiful.

00:45:45.000 If you wanted to teach a young fighter how to punch correctly, Joe Lewis, there's no better guy to watch than Joe Lewis.

00:45:51.000 No.

00:45:51.000 Did you see, Joe, what he did?

00:45:54.000 A little sidestep?

00:45:55.000 No, a minute ago, Schmeling tried to catch him with that same right hand he had knocked him out two years earlier.

00:46:01.000 Go back.

00:46:02.000 No, he just missed it!

00:46:03.000 But he changed.

00:46:04.000 He stepped out.

00:46:06.000 He changed his distance this time.

00:46:08.000 Because Jackie Blackburn, who's a great fighter...

00:46:11.000 A black fighter.

00:46:12.000 He was a trainer.

00:46:13.000 He was a great trainer.

00:46:14.000 Nobody hears about Jackie Blackburn.

00:46:16.000 What a great fighter he was and what a great trainer he was.

00:46:20.000 And how he wasn't allowed to fight white fighters.

00:46:22.000 And he beat everybody.

00:46:24.000 Look at that.

00:46:24.000 Counter left hook.

00:46:26.000 Instead of laying his head on the right like he did the first fight, he changed his range.

00:46:30.000 And he made that right hand miss.

00:46:32.000 And look how calm he is.

00:46:34.000 Look how calm he is.

00:46:35.000 Look how focused he is.

00:46:39.000 It's beautiful to watch.

00:46:40.000 Really?

00:46:40.000 The shortness of those punches is phenomenal.

00:46:42.000 Watch his legs, Joe.

00:46:44.000 Watch how he's always in position.

00:46:46.000 Look at that!

00:46:46.000 Look at that right hand!

00:46:47.000 But what did we miss?

00:46:49.000 What didn't you see?

00:46:50.000 Go back.

00:46:50.000 The sidestep.

00:46:51.000 No!

00:46:51.000 The blinding jab that sets it up where you don't see it.

00:46:55.000 Watch.

00:46:55.000 The jab is just a decoy!

00:46:57.000 Just so he can hit it with the right so you don't see it.

00:46:59.000 Just to cover it.

00:46:59.000 Right.

00:47:00.000 What a beautiful sidestep, too, right after he lands the right hand.

00:47:03.000 Beautiful.

00:47:03.000 Look at that.

00:47:04.000 Well, that's why he's the greatest finisher of all time.

00:47:07.000 Watch, watch the way he finishes this guy. 1.00

00:47:09.000 It's gonna go to the body! 0.96

00:47:10.000 And then the head! 0.99

00:47:11.000 Right hand to the body, right hand to the head!

00:47:15.000 That right hand is so short, and even when he's got the guy hurt.

00:47:18.000 Look at the guy.

00:47:19.000 Look at that.

00:47:20.000 Phenomenal.

00:47:21.000 Phenomenal.

00:47:22.000 And he did all of that with everything we just talked about for the last 20 minutes hanging over him.

00:47:28.000 Yeah.

00:47:30.000 I don't know.

00:47:31.000 It's a giant piece of history that people don't talk about.

00:47:33.000 But doesn't that make you think a little bit?

00:47:35.000 Doesn't that make you feel something about...

00:47:37.000 Yes.

00:47:37.000 Really?

00:47:38.000 Yeah, well, it's one of the reasons why I'm a Giants fan of the sport.

00:47:41.000 Yeah, thank you.

00:47:42.000 I mean, that alone is, in terms of historical impact, I agree with you.

00:47:47.000 It's one of the biggest moments in all of sports, ever.

00:47:50.000 In life.

00:47:51.000 In life.

00:47:51.000 You know what I like about boxing?

00:47:54.000 I like a lot of things I don't like.

00:47:57.000 I don't like the administrators. 0.98

00:47:59.000 I hate them. 0.99

00:48:00.000 I know that's a powerful word, but, you know, not every single one of them, but I'm just saying, I hate their weakness. 1.00

00:48:07.000 I hate their cowardice. 0.95

00:48:10.000 I do. 0.92

00:48:11.000 I do.

00:48:12.000 Because they sit outside the ring.

00:48:13.000 A lot of them, you brought up a point.

00:48:15.000 They should have had experience one way or the other.

00:48:17.000 And they've never, ever had anybody punch them.

00:48:20.000 And I'm not saying to be a man, you got to get punched.

00:48:22.000 I'm not saying any of that stuff.

00:48:24.000 Being a man is a lot more than that.

00:48:26.000 A lot more.

00:48:27.000 Plenty of people get punched and they're not men.

00:48:30.000 But what I'm saying is that You should understand what it feels to a person to put themselves on the line and to risk so much and to risk everything to try to get their family in a better place.

00:48:47.000 I think there's also, they should be a fan.

00:48:50.000 I don't think some of them are even fans.

00:48:53.000 No, they're not.

00:48:53.000 And some of them might not even like it.

00:48:55.000 They wouldn't tell you that.

00:48:56.000 Right.

00:48:56.000 But they just do it for a job.

00:48:58.000 Yeah.

00:48:58.000 And what I'm saying is that When I see these people that haven't been in that place, and not everyone can be in that place, so again, I got to be careful with that if I'm going to be fair.

00:49:13.000 But for them so easily to take something away from somebody.

00:49:18.000 See, what's different for me, why I get passionate, if you want to use that word, people say, Teddy, you get a little crazy.

00:49:26.000 If it happens in baseball and a guy beats out the throw, now you have cameras.

00:49:31.000 So you didn't used to have that.

00:49:33.000 But if a guy, you didn't have replay.

00:49:36.000 Back in the day, a guy...

00:49:38.000 It happened a lot of times.

00:49:39.000 Guy was safe and they called him out.

00:49:41.000 You know what?

00:49:41.000 Too bad.

00:49:42.000 It's a shame.

00:49:43.000 But you know what?

00:49:44.000 The next day he's going to play the game again and he's going to be able to make amends for that.

00:49:50.000 And his family...

00:49:51.000 And he's got guaranteed contracts.

00:49:52.000 And you know what?

00:49:53.000 It's going to be okay.

00:49:55.000 I mean, was it right?

00:49:56.000 Wrong is never right.

00:49:58.000 No.

00:49:59.000 But you know what?

00:50:01.000 In the mix of things...

00:50:03.000 We're going to overcome that.

00:50:04.000 But now you take a fighter.

00:50:06.000 Same thing.

00:50:08.000 And the judges make a mistake.

00:50:10.000 Maybe on purpose.

00:50:12.000 Whatever.

00:50:12.000 But they make a bad mistake.

00:50:15.000 The fighter can't go back the next day and rectify that.

00:50:18.000 The fighter doesn't have a guaranteed contract.

00:50:20.000 He only has what he can make if he gets to that fight.

00:50:22.000 That's it!

00:50:23.000 For that night.

00:50:25.000 Guess where that fighter goes. 1.00

00:50:26.000 He don't go back to the dugout and then come out the next day and play again with a new uniform on.

00:50:33.000 No, he goes to the back of the line in boxing and has to take hundreds, maybe thousands of punches to get back to that place he was to earn the right to get closer to the exit in the business because everyone's trying to get to the exit.

00:50:49.000 They're trying to gain what they can gain with their legacy, for their families, for themselves.

00:50:57.000 In many ways, financially, you know, but also what's inside them.

00:51:04.000 That they have to prove something.

00:51:07.000 That they have to make it for all different personal reasons.

00:51:11.000 And they're close to doing that. 0.92

00:51:14.000 And now they're forced because of some crook... 0.94

00:51:18.000 Maybe it's incompetence. 0.75

00:51:19.000 It's either corruption or incompetence, okay?

00:51:21.000 But sometimes it's corruption.

00:51:23.000 And they have to go all the way to the back of the line now.

00:51:27.000 They're not playing a football game the next Sunday.

00:51:30.000 They're not playing an NBA game two days later.

00:51:34.000 And they gotta take all those punches and hope.

00:51:38.000 Hope.

00:51:40.000 They get back to that place.

00:51:42.000 And you know what?

00:51:43.000 I seen it.

00:51:45.000 I did 22 years of ESPN boxing.

00:51:48.000 I've been with ESPN about 22 years.

00:51:49.000 But I did like 18 years, whatever it was, of Friday Night Fights.

00:51:53.000 We did a lot of title fights.

00:51:55.000 Not the big names.

00:51:56.000 Not the Canellos.

00:51:58.000 Not the Golovkins. 1.00

00:52:00.000 Not the Mayweathers.

00:52:01.000 But guys that it meant just as much to.

00:52:04.000 Even more because they didn't have millions of dollars.

00:52:07.000 And they got their shot.

00:52:09.000 And I watched them get robbed.

00:52:12.000 And I saw that they never got back there.

00:52:14.000 That night was the right night for them.

00:52:16.000 That particular night, everything worked.

00:52:19.000 Everything was perfect.

00:52:21.000 All that training, everything came together.

00:52:25.000 And they were beautiful.

00:52:26.000 They were magnificent.

00:52:27.000 And they were freaking robbed.

00:52:30.000 And it's wrong.

00:52:31.000 It's really wrong.

00:52:33.000 And that's what they do when they do that.

00:52:36.000 But the glorious thing, if that's not too...

00:52:41.000 Made up of a word.

00:52:42.000 It sounds like glory.

00:52:43.000 But the beautiful thing about boxing is that with everything wrong in the world, And I hate to use this cliché, this terminology, but, you know, with life being unfair, because I don't like to use that,

00:53:00.000 because sometimes people nowadays, for me, there's too many excuses out there.

00:53:05.000 There really are. 0.99

00:53:06.000 There's too many damn excuses. 0.98

00:53:08.000 You're in this country, you got a chance to do something where you don't have in other places. 0.99

00:53:13.000 But...

00:53:15.000 Having said that, it can feel like life's not fair sometimes, especially when you think about some of the things we just talked about in a day that's gone now.

00:53:23.000 It's not there no more, but a day of Lewis and those kind of people.

00:53:27.000 Life wasn't fair.

00:53:29.000 They really had a right to use that saying. 1.00

00:53:32.000 Nowadays, I don't think people who have a white, black, purple, they don't have a right to say that to the extent that they did back then.

00:53:40.000 Not to the extent.

00:53:40.000 No, no, they don't.

00:53:42.000 Are there things wrong?

00:53:43.000 Are there messed up people still out there?

00:53:45.000 Yeah.

00:53:45.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:48.000 But sometimes it's too easy to use that.

00:53:51.000 It's just too easy.

00:53:52.000 I agree.

00:53:53.000 So, but there was a time when life too often was unfair.

00:53:57.000 Ruthlessly unfair.

00:53:58.000 Yeah, really unfair.

00:53:59.000 Ruthlessly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:54:05.000 And when life was unfair, boxing was around to make it fair.

00:54:10.000 And I'll tell you how.

00:54:13.000 On one given night, If you worked hard enough, if you dreamed big enough, if you were tough enough and you made yourself tough enough, you sacrificed enough, you became polished and savvy enough and technically equipped to do things that you had,

00:54:38.000 and you learned those things, and you just worked yourself to the bone.

00:54:45.000 No matter where you came from, no matter what part of the world, no matter who your parents were, no matter what your poverty level may have been, may not have been.

00:54:53.000 No matter what you had, what you didn't have.

00:54:56.000 No matter what people had told you, didn't tell you.

00:55:02.000 All of that.

00:55:04.000 If you made yourself and took advantage of that opportunity and got yourself ready and you were ready to behave like a champion, you could get in that ring on one given night and make the world fair and have your hand lifted and be called champion of the world.

00:55:28.000 That makes boxing special.

00:55:30.000 And that's what these judges don't get.

00:55:34.000 That kids are waiting to hear that.

00:55:38.000 And they give everything. 0.99

00:55:41.000 You know, you hear too much the crap where I would die for that. 0.99

00:55:44.000 There's people that would die for that. 0.99

00:55:47.000 There were people in our times, in this world, in this country, and you used the right word, you know, tragically, whatever powerful word you had just used, ruthlessly.

00:55:58.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:55:59.000 There were people, because of that word, because of the reality of the actions attached to that word, If you told him, listen, you're going to have to die after this,

00:56:15.000 but you'll get to have this.

00:56:16.000 Your hand will be lifted.

00:56:17.000 You will be called champion of the world.

00:56:20.000 All your people will see it, and the people you want to see it, and yourself. 0.91

00:56:26.000 But you'll die afterwards.

00:56:28.000 I would give you that people would sign on.

00:56:31.000 That's how important that was.

00:56:33.000 That's what that stood for.

00:56:35.000 And then you get judges that have no conception of that.

00:56:41.000 I don't mean to laugh, but no, I'm not saying they have to have a complete conception of it, but no feeling of what we're talking about.

00:56:49.000 I think they're like DMV workers.

00:56:51.000 That's what I think.

00:56:52.000 I think there's a bunch of them that are real good, but a lot of them are just like people that are just taking a government job.

00:56:58.000 That's what I think.

00:56:58.000 And I think it's a travesty that they're not removed.

00:57:01.000 That's what I think. 0.94

00:57:02.000 Whenever I go to a UFC, and like I said, a lot of it's the same judges, and I see some of these scores, I want to take my fucking headset off and throw it into the cage and scream and flip over the table.

00:57:15.000 And you just kind of take a deep breath and calm yourself down because there's nothing you can do and these athletic commissions have kept these people on for whatever reason and you're watching a bad decision. 0.99

00:57:25.000 You're watching someone who trained for eight, ten weeks for this one particular fight and years and years to get to that position and they're getting fucked and they're getting fucked because someone just sucks at their job and they don't care and this person... 0.89

00:57:37.000 They're going to be there two months from now at another fight. 0.98

00:57:40.000 And there's nothing you can do about it.

00:57:42.000 And I don't understand it.

00:57:43.000 I don't understand how the commissions let this slide.

00:57:45.000 I don't know how difficult it is to fire these people or to prove they're incompetent.

00:57:49.000 But I do know that, especially with...

00:57:52.000 Well, I guess it's probably true with both boxing and MMA. There are countless fans out there that would do a far better job.

00:57:59.000 Countless.

00:58:00.000 Countless people that have had experience in fighting.

00:58:03.000 Countless people that have a deep appreciation and understanding of what's actually going on inside the fight.

00:58:09.000 And these people don't get those jobs. 0.99

00:58:11.000 And instead, these same fools continue to give piss-poor decisions or corrupt decisions. 0.99

00:58:18.000 I mean, whoever that woman was... 0.99

00:58:20.000 I don't want to mention people's names, but there's been some decisions.

00:58:23.000 There's been some horrific decisions.

00:58:25.000 The one that had it with the Mayweather...

00:58:28.000 You're talking about the Mayweather Canelo?

00:58:30.000 Yes.

00:58:31.000 The woman that added a draw? 1.00

00:58:33.000 Yes. 1.00

00:58:35.000 What the fuck is that? 1.00

00:58:36.000 I know her name, but I'm not going to say it. 0.99

00:58:37.000 I'm not going to say her name either, because she was also involved in another one.

00:58:41.000 Was it...

00:58:41.000 Yeah, she got Terry Bradley, Manny Pacquiao?

00:58:45.000 Yeah, she was involved in a couple.

00:58:46.000 Yeah.

00:58:47.000 A couple, at least two, right?

00:58:49.000 Yeah.

00:58:50.000 So I think we're being responsible.

00:58:54.000 Why was she still there?

00:58:55.000 Right.

00:58:56.000 Seriously.

00:58:57.000 Why was she still there?

00:58:59.000 Why?

00:58:59.000 Yeah.

00:59:00.000 Why?

00:59:00.000 Why was she still there?

00:59:01.000 How is it possible?

00:59:02.000 Right.

00:59:03.000 We're not talking about neurosurgeons that can separate and join twins.

00:59:06.000 Really?

00:59:06.000 Right.

00:59:07.000 We're talking about a job.

00:59:08.000 There's a lot of people that could do it.

00:59:10.000 I'm not saying it's an easy job, but I'm saying there's a lot of people that have a real understanding of boxing that would have done a way better job.

00:59:17.000 I mean, somebody robs a bank.

00:59:18.000 They're not your bank teller the next week.

00:59:21.000 Exactly.

00:59:22.000 Exactly.

00:59:23.000 Well, out of all the promoters today, is Golden Boy the best?

00:59:27.000 I mean, at least Oscar De La Hoya, Bernard Hopkins, they're legit world champion fighters.

00:59:32.000 Yeah.

00:59:34.000 But they're attached to, they got a strength and they got a weakness.

00:59:38.000 Their weakness is, they're attached, really attached at the hip to one, you know, their solar system, so to speak, has one sun.

00:59:46.000 And that sun is called Canelo.

00:59:48.000 Canelo disappears tomorrow and... 1.00

00:59:50.000 They're fucked. 1.00

00:59:51.000 Yeah. 1.00

00:59:53.000 They're not happy.

00:59:54.000 They got some problems.

00:59:55.000 But listen, Al Heyman's out there.

00:59:57.000 You know, he's PBC. You know, he came along.

01:00:01.000 He just signed a deal from what I read.

01:00:05.000 I think I'm saying the numbers right, where Fox gave him $50 million for a four-year deal to put fights out there.

01:00:11.000 And he's probably got the best stable...

01:00:14.000 Of fighters.

01:00:14.000 I mean, he's got, well, the guy hasn't been fighting, but the guy was, I think, was one of the best guys.

01:00:20.000 Thurman.

01:00:22.000 But, you know, he's got who I really love.

01:00:25.000 This guy's a beast.

01:00:26.000 My son loves him.

01:00:27.000 Spence.

01:00:28.000 Earl Spence.

01:00:29.000 Yes. 0.99

01:00:29.000 He's a beast. 0.99

01:00:30.000 I mean, the guy, I like him inside and out. 0.87

01:00:32.000 What do I mean by that?

01:00:33.000 I mean, he truly believes that he should fight all the best.

01:00:36.000 He truly believes he's the best.

01:00:38.000 He truly believes he's going to get to you.

01:00:40.000 You know what I mean?

01:00:40.000 Yes.

01:00:41.000 And he fights that way.

01:00:42.000 And he's a great guy.

01:00:43.000 He's a good guy.

01:00:44.000 He's a good guy.

01:00:45.000 So, it's good.

01:00:47.000 He's articulate.

01:00:47.000 Yeah.

01:00:48.000 Handsome.

01:00:48.000 It makes it better.

01:00:49.000 Yeah, he's fun.

01:00:49.000 Got a big smile.

01:00:50.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:00:51.000 It's better, you know?

01:00:52.000 Terrence Crawford is another one.

01:00:54.000 I'm a giant fan of Terrence Crawford.

01:00:55.000 Yeah, Crawford's out there.

01:00:56.000 And so, I mean, Haven's got a lot of...

01:00:59.000 He's also got Wilder, the heavyweight champ, but one of the champs, whatever that is.

01:01:03.000 But...

01:01:05.000 Water, technically he's got a lot of problems, but he's got one thing that's not a problem.

01:01:10.000 Confidence.

01:01:11.000 Confidence, but one other thing.

01:01:12.000 Oh my goodness.

01:01:14.000 He's Thor.

01:01:18.000 Instead of a hammer, it's the right hand. 1.00

01:01:20.000 He does have a fucking hammer for a right hand. 1.00

01:01:23.000 Oh my goodness. 1.00

01:01:24.000 He...

01:01:26.000 Listen, I only... 1.00

01:01:27.000 That motherfucker knocks out everybody. 1.00

01:01:28.000 Oh, man, if he hits you... 1.00

01:01:30.000 And the Ortiz fight was very interesting, right?

01:01:32.000 Yeah, he was hurt.

01:01:32.000 Ortiz gave him some problems.

01:01:33.000 He was in bad shape.

01:01:34.000 Yeah, and still.

01:01:35.000 Referee might have helped him a little, but he was in bad shape.

01:01:38.000 Yeah.

01:01:39.000 But boy, oh boy.

01:01:41.000 Still.

01:01:41.000 You know, I say it a lot of times.

01:01:43.000 He had that eraser, you know?

01:01:44.000 I remember...

01:01:45.000 I remember...

01:01:46.000 It's not a great memory, but as a kid, somehow I wound up in...

01:01:52.000 Catholic school for a minute, and those nuns, they should have been fighters. 1.00

01:02:01.000 They were mean. 0.96

01:02:02.000 They were mean.

01:02:03.000 I think they were a little twisted, some of them, but I'm not going to go too, but they were a little, they were mean. 0.95

01:02:09.000 But they had no problem hitting you in the head with that black eraser. 0.99

01:02:12.000 They're like, you want to pay? 0.92

01:02:14.000 Bang! 1.00

01:02:14.000 It was just like, and it was hard. 1.00

01:02:16.000 It was like, I don't know.

01:02:16.000 And the dust would fly.

01:02:17.000 Yeah, dust would fly.

01:02:20.000 You know?

01:02:21.000 And he has that eraser.

01:02:23.000 That's the point I'm making.

01:02:24.000 He has that eraser where bang!

01:02:25.000 But look at his technique.

01:02:26.000 His technique is so crazy.

01:02:28.000 Not too good.

01:02:28.000 It's so crazy.

01:02:29.000 His feet come up off the ground.

01:02:31.000 Terrible.

01:02:31.000 Technique bad.

01:02:33.000 Technique bad.

01:02:34.000 Power good.

01:02:36.000 When he lands, people go flying.

01:02:38.000 I mean, listen.

01:02:39.000 And he's not a giant heavyweight either in terms of his physical weight.

01:02:41.000 No, but you know what he is, though?

01:02:43.000 He's long.

01:02:43.000 Yes.

01:02:44.000 And he's tall.

01:02:45.000 And look at those arms.

01:02:46.000 He is long.

01:02:47.000 I mean, if he was in here, he could hit you across the room.

01:02:51.000 Well, so is Tyson Fury, and that's one of the things that makes this fight very, very, very interesting.

01:02:56.000 That's one of the times where that's saying, styles make fights, that's going to be this fight.

01:03:01.000 That's going to be the whole thing. 1.00

01:03:03.000 Yes, Tyson Fury is a motherfucker. 0.99

01:03:04.000 Well, he can move. 1.00

01:03:05.000 He's not only 6'7", or whatever the hell he is.

01:03:07.000 I think he's bigger than that.

01:03:09.000 6'8", maybe 6'9".

01:03:11.000 Yeah, he's tall, he's long.

01:03:11.000 But he can move.

01:03:12.000 And his jab is phenomenal.

01:03:14.000 Somebody forgot to tell me he's a heavyweight because he moves around like a lightweight.

01:03:18.000 And that could be a problem.

01:03:20.000 Yeah.

01:03:20.000 Until he gets hit.

01:03:21.000 Also, he talks tremendous shit until he gets hit. 1.00

01:03:24.000 Well, then things change. 1.00

01:03:26.000 Yeah.

01:03:26.000 But I always used to say when I was doing the broadcast, I would always say, and of course I wouldn't say it if I didn't have a belief in this and a proof of it in my mind at least, that punches are born,

01:03:42.000 they're not made.

01:03:43.000 Yeah.

01:03:43.000 You're born or you're not born to be a puncher of that level.

01:03:46.000 You just are.

01:03:47.000 And I'll tell you something funny because you brought it up.

01:03:50.000 About him being, you know, he's not a big, you know, he's not that prototypical big, you know, husky, you know, you know, wedged out heavyweight.

01:04:00.000 Yeah, he's not that.

01:04:01.000 But I'll tell you, when I was training fighters when I was young, and I was taking them to smokers in the Bronx to get experience every week, tough places there in the South Bronx, and we're taking them to these unsanctioned fights just to get them experience.

01:04:16.000 And if I didn't know the fighter...

01:04:18.000 See, I'm responsible for these kids back then.

01:04:21.000 I'm like their parent, and they're trusting me.

01:04:23.000 Some of them didn't have parents, but the ones that did, they were trusting me to take care of this kid.

01:04:27.000 They didn't know I was going to the South Bronx where...

01:04:29.000 I remember one time I borrowed a car from somebody.

01:04:33.000 I didn't have a good enough car.

01:04:34.000 It was the publisher of the newspaper.

01:04:36.000 The...

01:04:38.000 Catskill Daily Mail.

01:04:39.000 And I've come to his name as the publisher.

01:04:42.000 And I borrowed his station wagon.

01:04:44.000 I didn't have a car big enough to take the kids.

01:04:46.000 And as I'm leaving, he says, you're not taking them to a bad place where they like rob hubcaps or something.

01:04:53.000 And I was like, no.

01:04:54.000 Because I didn't think I was lying.

01:04:56.000 Because to me, they robbed the whole car.

01:05:02.000 So I said, no.

01:05:03.000 Because he left it at hubcaps.

01:05:05.000 So I said, no.

01:05:08.000 So I get there and the first thing I do is I pull underneath the L. For people who don't know it's the train.

01:05:16.000 And underneath.

01:05:19.000 You talk about life growing up quick.

01:05:22.000 In one night, it was like reading chapters of a book.

01:05:25.000 You went through different things and you learned different things about yourself.

01:05:29.000 And about what's there, what you don't see.

01:05:33.000 And you haven't been around, but it's there.

01:05:35.000 And it's good to know it's there.

01:05:37.000 A different life.

01:05:38.000 A different way.

01:05:40.000 And I'm down in the South Bronx, and first thing I did, I went to Mr. Santos.

01:05:44.000 He was the father of one of my kids.

01:05:46.000 I went to his bar across the street, said, Mr. Santos, my car's over there.

01:05:50.000 Gotcha.

01:05:51.000 And I come out, and all the batteries of the cars were gone except mine.

01:05:57.000 Quite often.

01:05:59.000 But my car was good.

01:06:01.000 Mr. Santos and his crew made sure that nobody took my battery.

01:06:05.000 And so we were good.

01:06:07.000 So I was looking out for the kids because I did what I had to do.

01:06:10.000 But it was a scary place.

01:06:11.000 It was a tough place.

01:06:12.000 And the kids grew up fast.

01:06:14.000 It was three flights.

01:06:16.000 And I often thought that It was meant to be three flights because you had time to think during those flights.

01:06:22.000 The first flight, quite frankly, you saw syringes sometimes.

01:06:27.000 Kids didn't know nothing about it.

01:06:29.000 These kids with cats go to New York.

01:06:31.000 Really?

01:06:32.000 Syringes?

01:06:35.000 And then the next flight, you know, you smelled urine, because people were there, they went up there, and they were, you know, going to the bathroom, doing whatever, and shooting up, whatever, and it smelled.

01:06:46.000 But then by the time you got to the third flight, you started to hear noise, started to hear social music.

01:06:54.000 And you could smell something.

01:06:57.000 They were cooking all the Spanish specialties.

01:07:01.000 The fried bananas.

01:07:04.000 The meat with the potato in the middle.

01:07:10.000 Palantas and all that.

01:07:12.000 I don't remember all the names.

01:07:15.000 And then, of course, a lot of rum.

01:07:18.000 A lot of...

01:07:19.000 It was a bar.

01:07:20.000 But that's how they paid the rent for the gym.

01:07:23.000 Because they would do these smokers twice a month.

01:07:26.000 You know, there was a smoker every week in New York.

01:07:29.000 Every week.

01:07:29.000 People had to know where they were.

01:07:31.000 But they were every week.

01:07:33.000 And, yeah, they weren't sanctioned.

01:07:34.000 There was no doctor.

01:07:35.000 Listen, I'm going out there and saying, yeah, that don't sound too good.

01:07:39.000 I got you.

01:07:41.000 But we made it good.

01:07:43.000 Yeah.

01:07:44.000 We made it good.

01:07:45.000 We made sure we took care of this.

01:07:46.000 We made it...

01:07:47.000 I know it was still dangerous.

01:07:48.000 It was still...

01:07:49.000 But you want to know something?

01:07:51.000 A kid drinking a bottle of vodka a day was pretty freaking dangerous.

01:07:54.000 Okay? 1.00

01:07:56.000 I had some idiot one time. 1.00

01:07:58.000 I was trying to get money from my foundation. 1.00

01:08:00.000 And I was explaining to him.

01:08:01.000 And he was a political guy.

01:08:03.000 And I was explaining to him.

01:08:05.000 And he goes, Oh, but you got brain damage in boxing.

01:08:07.000 It's a pretty dangerous...

01:08:09.000 Like, I was trying to, like you, when you want to throw your headset, when you see these...

01:08:13.000 I was, like, trying to control myself.

01:08:15.000 I'm trying to talk to...

01:08:16.000 I'm supposed to talk the right way to this guy if I'm going to get money from my foundation that helps these people, right?

01:08:22.000 So I'm trying to talk to him, and I'm saying, do you get brain damage from being out in the street and getting hit with a pipe?

01:08:30.000 Do you get brain...

01:08:31.000 Because these are the people I'm helping.

01:08:32.000 Do you get brain damage from doing crack?

01:08:36.000 No.

01:08:36.000 Do you get brain damage?

01:08:37.000 I did have a kid who drank a bottle of vodka.

01:08:39.000 Now, when he gave to my program and the foundation that we run, for two years, he's been, well, now it's three years, he's been clean.

01:08:48.000 He's back with his family.

01:08:50.000 He was living on the streets.

01:08:51.000 He was with gangs.

01:08:52.000 And when he got into boxing in one of our programs, he stopped all that.

01:08:58.000 But he was drinking a bottle of vodka.

01:09:00.000 Yeah, it's true.

01:09:01.000 15 years, yeah, a lot of people say, Teddy, how do you drink?

01:09:04.000 Yeah, but he was.

01:09:06.000 How do you do it?

01:09:07.000 Because you have a lot of pain maybe or whatever, whatever.

01:09:10.000 But yeah, he was.

01:09:11.000 And so I said to the guy, I was trying not to get into an argument, but I was like, boxing causes brain damage, but I'm taking guys away from kids that the alternative is the bottle of vodka, the crack, the needle, the pipe on the head.

01:09:29.000 Or maybe the pipe on someone else's head where they caused brain damage to someone else.

01:09:33.000 Maybe unfortunately you one day walking out of your house.

01:09:37.000 What about that?

01:09:39.000 Brain damage?

01:09:40.000 That's your way of telling me no?

01:09:43.000 That's your way of not giving me what I'm asking for?

01:09:45.000 To say that?

01:09:47.000 Why don't you think it out a little bit more?

01:09:49.000 Why don't you think it out a little more and give me a better excuse?

01:09:54.000 Why don't you at least understand what we're doing?

01:09:56.000 Yeah.

01:09:57.000 There's a reason why we're doing this.

01:10:00.000 So these kids, we would go to the South Bronx, and these kids would, they'd walk up, you know, like I said, they'd walk up the steps.

01:10:11.000 By the time that door opened up, and again, this is how they paid the rent.

01:10:17.000 By selling liquor, by charging $3 to get in, and selling that food, and the place would be packed.

01:10:28.000 And when the L went by, we talked a little bit about pressure and about, you know, what pressure does to you.

01:10:36.000 It can form you.

01:10:37.000 It could destroy you.

01:10:39.000 But it could form you.

01:10:40.000 It could make you realize what you're capable of.

01:10:43.000 You know what the greatest thing about what boxing does for somebody?

01:10:46.000 It makes them know, Teddy, what does boxing do for you?

01:10:48.000 Oh, you jab.

01:10:50.000 No, your condition, you take care of your tempo, your body, all that stuff.

01:10:53.000 Yeah, sounds good.

01:10:55.000 Teddy, give us one thing that boxing does forever.

01:10:57.000 It lets you know you can depend on yourself.

01:11:02.000 Let's a kid know that he can like himself.

01:11:04.000 We don't know he can like himself and depend on himself.

01:11:07.000 These kids.

01:11:09.000 So...

01:11:11.000 Was it rough?

01:11:12.000 Yeah, it was rough.

01:11:12.000 So we're in the place, and yeah, there's no doctor.

01:11:17.000 Yeah, we had no sanctioning organization.

01:11:19.000 We made our own fights.

01:11:22.000 But there was a danger.

01:11:24.000 But I just told you the other dangers, this was taking them and replacing those other dangers.

01:11:30.000 This was taking them away from them.

01:11:31.000 You know what?

01:11:31.000 It was the only positive thing in the neighborhood for these kids.

01:11:35.000 It really was.

01:11:36.000 Was it rough?

01:11:37.000 Yeah!

01:11:38.000 It was boxing!

01:11:40.000 But I just talked about life is rough.

01:11:42.000 Especially for these people.

01:11:44.000 Rougher.

01:11:46.000 So it was an alternative to violence.

01:11:49.000 People say, Teddy, what are you talking about?

01:11:50.000 Boxing?

01:11:51.000 No.

01:11:53.000 Because if you're angry, which these kids are, if they don't learn to lose that anger, they never become anything in boxing.

01:12:01.000 Because they walk in and get hit.

01:12:03.000 They learn that they can control that anger.

01:12:05.000 They can put it somewhere.

01:12:07.000 They learn that they can control themselves.

01:12:11.000 They can depend on themselves to be something positive.

01:12:14.000 So I would take these kids and we would go there and we were the only white kids in the place.

01:12:22.000 And they loved us.

01:12:24.000 They were funny.

01:12:25.000 Like I said, the guy who ran it, Nelson Cuevas, he was a great guy.

01:12:29.000 But, you know, look, he carried a gun in his holster, in his belt, because he knew it could be rough.

01:12:37.000 I mean, did I leave that part out to the parents when I was taking them, that the proprietor of the place, you know, has a gun and every once in a while he opens his jacket and makes sure that the people remember that he has it?

01:12:49.000 Yeah, all right.

01:12:51.000 But they looked out for you.

01:12:53.000 They...

01:12:54.000 The kids...

01:12:55.000 I know it sounds contrary.

01:12:57.000 I get it.

01:12:58.000 Contradictory.

01:12:58.000 But these kids...

01:13:02.000 They learn so much about themselves.

01:13:04.000 And I looked out, we looked out for them.

01:13:06.000 And when it came time to make the matches, the point I was making about Wilder and you talked about being long and about, I'm sorry I jump all over the place.

01:13:15.000 No, it's great.

01:13:16.000 But I learned, Cus taught me this, but you have to learn it yourself.

01:13:23.000 You have to see it.

01:13:24.000 You have to be in it.

01:13:25.000 Cus told me about it, but that's only part of it.

01:13:29.000 He always told me, Teddy, be careful with skinny, wiry guys.

01:13:34.000 They're the greatest bunches.

01:13:37.000 I was thinking, you know, this.

01:13:40.000 They're the greatest punches.

01:13:41.000 He never told me why.

01:13:43.000 He let me figure it out.

01:13:44.000 I saw it.

01:13:45.000 I saw when he hit him.

01:13:49.000 Tommy Hearns.

01:13:50.000 Yeah.

01:13:51.000 But I know why now.

01:13:53.000 Leverage.

01:13:54.000 Talk.

01:13:55.000 Talk.

01:13:56.000 Whatever you call that.

01:13:57.000 And so anyway, so here we are.

01:13:59.000 And if you saw the guy, you knew who to match with.

01:14:02.000 But if you didn't see the guy...

01:14:05.000 You had to depend on other things.

01:14:08.000 Who's the coach?

01:14:09.000 Certain coaches had no good fighters.

01:14:11.000 Certain coaches had good fighters.

01:14:13.000 Another coach, does he have a good...

01:14:15.000 Is he honest?

01:14:16.000 Is he lying?

01:14:17.000 Does he have...

01:14:19.000 Does he have an opinion that is good?

01:14:24.000 Or does he just say things?

01:14:26.000 So I'd have to go through all that.

01:14:29.000 If I didn't know the guy, I wouldn't put my kid in with the guy unless I was sure what he was.

01:14:34.000 Sure!

01:14:35.000 And it was hard because everyone was lying.

01:14:38.000 There was like a cold.

01:14:40.000 It was all connected to lying, unfortunately.

01:14:43.000 But everyone looking out for their kid.

01:14:47.000 I'll give you an example.

01:14:48.000 Guess who the matchmaker was? 0.99

01:14:50.000 I became the matchmaker.

01:14:53.000 You know, in the place. 0.98

01:14:54.000 All Spanish, black. 0.95

01:14:56.000 But Nelson made me the matchmaker.

01:14:58.000 You be the matchmaker.

01:14:59.000 And a lot of the people didn't speak English.

01:15:01.000 So, you know, we figure it out.

01:15:03.000 We get there.

01:15:05.000 So, you make a column.

01:15:08.000 The name of the fighter, the weight.

01:15:10.000 Yeah, so you weigh him.

01:15:12.000 You know, that's one thing.

01:15:13.000 You see it.

01:15:13.000 Okay, that's the only truth.

01:15:15.000 The rest of it got dicey.

01:15:18.000 Okay, how many fights?

01:15:19.000 Most important thing.

01:15:20.000 Most important thing.

01:15:22.000 How many fights?

01:15:23.000 Zero.

01:15:24.000 Everyone in this place got zero fights?

01:15:28.000 And I said, nobody got fights in this place?

01:15:31.000 You've been doing this for years!

01:15:33.000 So, okay.

01:15:35.000 Here's the code.

01:15:36.000 Zero fights means two or three.

01:15:40.000 One, two, or three fights meant six to ten.

01:15:45.000 God forbid anyone ever said they had five, six fights.

01:15:50.000 Anywhere from 25 to 100. Real, real.

01:16:00.000 This is the world that I lived in for five, six years.

01:16:02.000 Took them every Friday.

01:16:05.000 Drove down to the Bronx and got them a smoker every week.

01:16:10.000 And so you figured out the code after a while.

01:16:16.000 But you're responsible for these kids, so you wanted every tangible thing you could have.

01:16:20.000 So again, if I wasn't sure how much the guy was lying, that he was lying a little extra, I'd go to Nelson.

01:16:28.000 You know this guy?

01:16:29.000 No, but talk to Pablo.

01:16:31.000 Talk to Angel.

01:16:33.000 All right.

01:16:34.000 You know the guy?

01:16:36.000 No.

01:16:37.000 Yeah.

01:16:38.000 Stay away from him.

01:16:39.000 No fight.

01:16:40.000 You know, because I'm not taking a chance.

01:16:42.000 But then when you get to the point where you don't really know, then I would, just your instincts come alive.

01:16:50.000 You're protecting your kid.

01:16:51.000 It's your kid.

01:16:52.000 It's your kid as much as it's paternally your kid. 0.73

01:16:55.000 It's your kid.

01:16:57.000 I remember one time I went up to the guy.

01:16:59.000 I couldn't get enough info.

01:17:00.000 I went up to the guy, brought Nelson as an interpreter because he didn't speak English.

01:17:08.000 And I said, listen, I know what we do here.

01:17:11.000 All I'm telling you is I'm not putting my kid in to get beat up.

01:17:16.000 If it's fair, it's fair.

01:17:18.000 But I'm not putting him in with a kid that's got 30, 40 fights.

01:17:21.000 My kid legitimately has two fights.

01:17:24.000 I'm telling you.

01:17:26.000 I know we don't do that here, but I'm telling you.

01:17:29.000 That's what he's got.

01:17:30.000 If your kid's got 40, tell me.

01:17:33.000 Just tell me and say no fight.

01:17:35.000 And I'll shake your hand and that's it.

01:17:38.000 We're good.

01:17:40.000 So he kept, he stood to his story.

01:17:45.000 So we get close and I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking.

01:17:49.000 And I'm watching the guy warm up.

01:17:51.000 Cus always told me, watch the guy warm up. 1.00

01:17:53.000 Watch him warm up.

01:17:55.000 I want you to warm up.

01:18:02.000 I said, this guy didn't have two fights.

01:18:05.000 I mean, I'm a pretty good trainer.

01:18:08.000 And even without fights, I think I teach them technically what they need to know before they get the experience.

01:18:13.000 But this guy was beyond that.

01:18:17.000 I mean, you know, this was Sugar Ray Robinson.

01:18:21.000 So I go back to Nelson.

01:18:22.000 I said, bring him over here again.

01:18:24.000 Ten minutes before the fight.

01:18:26.000 I said, bring him over here again.

01:18:28.000 Comes over.

01:18:30.000 Or, you know, a little bit of an attitude.

01:18:32.000 It's all right, everyone's got attitudes in this business.

01:18:35.000 He said, hey, listen, one more time.

01:18:43.000 I just want to tell you, I'm not threatening you, but I have to tell you this.

01:18:50.000 You told me he's got no fights, whatever, two fights, whatever.

01:18:53.000 When the bell rings, if you got over on me, I was wrong, you were right.

01:19:00.000 As soon as the bell rings, I'm going to see it.

01:19:02.000 I'm going to know it.

01:19:05.000 There's nothing you can say afterwards to explain it.

01:19:09.000 I know it.

01:19:11.000 And I'll stop the fight if I have to, because I'll protect my kid.

01:19:16.000 And right after I do that, I'll be coming over to you.

01:19:20.000 That's all I'm going to say.

01:19:22.000 So please, please, for you, for me, please, if it's what I'm saying, please, just tell Nelson, you don't have to tell me, just tell Nelson when I leave here that we're not going to fight.

01:19:44.000 Nelson came back to me four minutes, three minutes, two minutes later and said, he said, no fight.

01:19:49.000 Thank you.

01:19:50.000 Tell him thank you.

01:19:51.000 Tell him thank you.

01:19:54.000 That's the world we lived in there.

01:19:56.000 But we got it done.

01:19:58.000 We got it done, though, Joe.

01:19:59.000 We did.

01:20:00.000 We really did.

01:20:02.000 Well, thank God that someone like you was able to understand that there is a big difference and that you can, you know, these guys that sandbag like that, it's very, very common. 1.00

01:20:12.000 And, yeah, and see, they think they're gaining something because, you know what I mean? 0.98

01:20:17.000 Well, they just want to fuck somebody up. 0.99

01:20:18.000 Yeah. 0.97

01:20:19.000 Yeah.

01:20:19.000 And so, but let me tell you something.

01:20:23.000 My kids, I mean, like when we first started fighting there, they had bongo drums this high.

01:20:32.000 I mean, my kids had never seen bongo.

01:20:34.000 I didn't see bongo drums now.

01:20:36.000 What am I saying?

01:20:38.000 But they were this high.

01:20:40.000 They were bongo. 1.00

01:20:40.000 And they were in the ring. 1.00

01:20:42.000 They only came out, you know, when we got ready to fight.

01:20:45.000 And they're playing the bongos and, you know, great music.

01:20:49.000 I mean, really, it was, you know.

01:20:50.000 But you know what?

01:20:52.000 When you're hearing that bongo music...

01:20:55.000 And you're in the ring, and you're talking to the kid in the corner, and they're outside now with the bongos, and they're playing the bongos, and you're talking...

01:21:03.000 That's an atmosphere.

01:21:05.000 Yeah.

01:21:06.000 That's different.

01:21:06.000 That's real experience.

01:21:07.000 That's experience.

01:21:08.000 That's life experience.

01:21:10.000 Yeah.

01:21:10.000 You know what I mean?

01:21:11.000 Yeah.

01:21:12.000 That's not taught in the classroom.

01:21:14.000 And my kids, after six years of that, because that's about how long we did it, and I was up there seven years training fighters for class, so...

01:21:24.000 I'm telling you, my kids grew up.

01:21:26.000 Did they all go on to be pros and did they go on to be Olympic champions?

01:21:30.000 No.

01:21:31.000 But they took that and they used it to be better at what they did and to have the confidence to do things they might not have had the confidence to do without that experience.

01:21:43.000 I got a couple of them that are state troopers.

01:21:45.000 I got a couple of them that are teachers in high school.

01:21:48.000 You know, all different things.

01:21:51.000 A couple that went to college that nobody in their history of their family ever went beyond high school.

01:21:58.000 But they went to college.

01:22:00.000 And they were kind of told, you're never going to go to college.

01:22:03.000 They went to college.

01:22:05.000 And I would like to believe it had something to do with that.

01:22:09.000 And a lot of people ask me, who was your greatest?

01:22:13.000 Because I had Tyson, too, there.

01:22:14.000 He became one of them.

01:22:19.000 And I remember it was funny because when I would put it down, like I said, everyone lied about their experience, but, you know, they lied about everything.

01:22:26.000 But I would put down, you know, the age and everything else, all the stuff for what it was worth.

01:22:32.000 You had to have something to try to believe in, right?

01:22:35.000 And then figure it out from there.

01:22:38.000 So Tyson, when I first had him, he was 190 pounds, nothing but muscle, 12 years old.

01:22:43.000 Okay?

01:22:43.000 That's what he was.

01:22:44.000 But that's what he was.

01:22:45.000 I mean, that's what God made him.

01:22:47.000 That's crazy.

01:22:48.000 So I go down there and I put, first fight, nobody's seen Tyson.

01:22:51.000 Nobody's ever seen Tyson!

01:22:53.000 But 12 years old, zero fights.

01:22:56.000 Okay.

01:23:01.000 Now you go too far.

01:23:03.000 You lie more than us.

01:23:12.000 You learn a lot from us.

01:23:14.000 You lie better than us.

01:23:16.000 I said, thanks, that's a compliment.

01:23:18.000 I said, I think, Nelson, that's a compliment?

01:23:21.000 I mean, I take it, I guess it is, right?

01:23:23.000 I'm not lying.

01:23:24.000 12 years old, 190 pounds.

01:23:27.000 Teddy, please, please, please.

01:23:29.000 Nelson, I'm not lying, okay?

01:23:31.000 He's 12 years old.

01:23:33.000 He's going to be 13 soon, but technically he's 12 years old, okay?

01:23:37.000 Oh, come on. 0.87

01:23:39.000 I said, all right, I'll make you feel better.

01:23:41.000 I'll put down 17. Thank you!

01:23:42.000 Now you tell the truth.

01:23:43.000 I say, he's not 17!

01:23:49.000 But I knew what I had.

01:23:50.000 You know, like I said, I knew what I had.

01:23:52.000 So I fought a 17-year-old.

01:23:54.000 I wasn't going to fight no 12-year-old.

01:23:56.000 That wasn't going to happen.

01:23:57.000 Right.

01:23:57.000 And plus, I get arrested for murder.

01:24:00.000 What was he like at 12 years old?

01:24:03.000 Mentally weak, but physically...

01:24:05.000 What do I mean mentally weak?

01:24:08.000 Not weak for the average guy, but for a fighter, he still had residual...

01:24:21.000 Stuff from his upbringing.

01:24:22.000 Listen, you want to know the truth about the guy?

01:24:25.000 But he used to hide in between abandoned building walls in Brownsville.

01:24:30.000 It was a rough place, no doubt about it.

01:24:32.000 Didn't have a father, whatever, the mother, whatever.

01:24:35.000 And he used to hide between walls to not get picked on.

01:24:41.000 And I believe when you do that, you never get outside of that wall to a certain extent.

01:24:47.000 You're always hiding in that wall for the rest of your life.

01:24:50.000 That's just my belief.

01:24:52.000 Teddy, what are you talking about?

01:24:53.000 He became a heavyweight champ.

01:24:54.000 Some people think he's the greatest.

01:24:55.000 Some people...

01:24:56.000 I don't have his record in front of me, and this is going to blow some people crazy, but what are you going to do?

01:25:06.000 I don't have his record.

01:25:07.000 Let's just say we're going to make an arbitrary number because your man's going to pull it up, but let's just say it's 50 and 6. All right, we'll say 5. 50 and 5, but whatever.

01:25:20.000 I think his record is truly, if you're going to be this, and we're not truly in life with anything, but if we're truly, truly in an absolute world, which we don't live in, but I would say he's 0-5.

01:25:37.000 All right, now everyone who's listening to you would think it's just like, let me get what Teddy's drinking.

01:25:43.000 I don't see him drinking nothing, but he probably had some before he came in.

01:25:47.000 To me, a fight is not a fight until there's resistance.

01:25:51.000 Until there's something to overcome.

01:25:54.000 Something to overcome.

01:25:57.000 Otherwise, it's just an athletic venture.

01:25:59.000 It's an exhibition.

01:26:01.000 I think life is that.

01:26:04.000 I think you don't know if a lawyer is a lawyer until there's something to overcome in the courtroom.

01:26:09.000 Something goes wrong, okay?

01:26:11.000 I know he's a lawyer.

01:26:13.000 I know he went to school.

01:26:13.000 I get it.

01:26:14.000 Nobody has to tell me that.

01:26:15.000 But he ain't a lawyer.

01:26:17.000 He ain't that. 0.85

01:26:19.000 Until everything goes wrong, the judge throws all his crap out, and he is effed, so to speak, and he still handles it. 0.64

01:26:31.000 Then he's a lawyer. 0.94

01:26:32.000 A doctor's not a doctor, too.

01:26:34.000 He opens up this kid, a kid, just like he's got at home.

01:26:38.000 And arteries are bleeding all over the place.

01:26:41.000 And it's not in the textbook. 0.94

01:26:44.000 It's not in the freaking textbook. 0.84

01:26:46.000 And he got to do it. 0.96

01:26:47.000 He got to figure it out.

01:26:48.000 And then he's a doctor.

01:26:50.000 Then he's a surgeon.

01:26:51.000 At that level.

01:26:54.000 You're not...

01:26:57.000 You're not in a fight.

01:26:59.000 Look, I admit it.

01:27:01.000 I equate life to a fight.

01:27:02.000 I do.

01:27:03.000 You're not in a fight.

01:27:06.000 And so there's pressure.

01:27:08.000 Resistance.

01:27:09.000 Overcoming something.

01:27:10.000 Otherwise, it's just an exhibition.

01:27:13.000 Tyson's talent was so great.

01:27:15.000 His physical ability, his talent was so overwhelming.

01:27:19.000 Just like somebody's intellect.

01:27:22.000 Just somebody's charisma.

01:27:25.000 Whatever.

01:27:26.000 Beauty.

01:27:28.000 Until it came to something else.

01:27:30.000 But his talent was so superior that the other stuff never got tested.

01:27:35.000 He was blowing guys out.

01:27:37.000 And it never got tested if there was anything in the warehouse, so to speak.

01:27:42.000 If there was anything inside, you never knew.

01:27:45.000 And then five times, whatever the real record is, five times there was resistance.

01:27:50.000 Five times it became a real fight.

01:27:53.000 Five times there was something to overcome.

01:27:57.000 And he failed all five times.

01:27:59.000 He was only in five fights in his life.

01:28:01.000 And he's all in five.

01:28:03.000 I'm sorry.

01:28:04.000 Sour grapes, because we know my history with him, right?

01:28:08.000 Am I capable of that?

01:28:12.000 Yeah, I'm human, yeah.

01:28:13.000 But I can honestly tell you, I try to be better than that.

01:28:23.000 I've called many fights where the people in the corner, I couldn't stand them.

01:28:27.000 I had no respect for them.

01:28:28.000 But if they did a good job in the corner, if their fighter did a job, I talked about them like they were Ray Arcel.

01:28:35.000 Like they were Angelo Dundee.

01:28:37.000 Because that's what it was supposed to be.

01:28:39.000 That's all.

01:28:40.000 And it's selfish because I want to know and I want my kids to know that I can be better than that.

01:28:49.000 That it's about the code of the profession.

01:28:56.000 It's about you.

01:28:57.000 It's about you believing that what you say is good.

01:29:02.000 It should be honest.

01:29:03.000 It should be what you believe.

01:29:05.000 It shouldn't be tainted or influenced by lesser things.

01:29:11.000 That it does represent you.

01:29:12.000 It does represent your family.

01:29:14.000 It does represent where you came from.

01:29:16.000 It does stay.

01:29:17.000 You know, you blurt it out for those five minutes or maybe two hours on ESPN, but it stays.

01:29:26.000 Someone can go back to it.

01:29:27.000 You can go back to it.

01:29:29.000 How do you feel about it?

01:29:31.000 It does mean something.

01:29:32.000 It really does.

01:29:33.000 And so I'm only saying it because I would say it about somebody else.

01:29:41.000 In the way that I calibrate things, the way that I evaluate things, that I don't think that you know crap about somebody until they're tested.

01:29:50.000 You don't know if they're your friend.

01:29:52.000 You don't know if they're a good wife. 1.00

01:29:54.000 You don't know if they're a good girlfriend. 1.00

01:29:56.000 You don't know crap. 0.97

01:29:58.000 You think you do, but until they're really tested... 0.99

01:30:02.000 You don't really know.

01:30:04.000 And Tyson, when he got tested, when he had to overcome something, when he didn't run them over like one of those big monster trucks running over a Volkswagen, because he was a monster truck with Volkswagens.

01:30:14.000 Yeah, he was.

01:30:15.000 Yeah, he was.

01:30:16.000 And was he one of the greatest punches of all time?

01:30:18.000 Yeah!

01:30:19.000 Yes!

01:30:20.000 Could he punch from either side of the plate like Mickey Mantle, the greatest switch hitter?

01:30:24.000 Was he that in body?

01:30:25.000 Yes!

01:30:25.000 He could punch evenly, great, with either hand from either side!

01:30:30.000 Was he all those things?

01:30:31.000 Yes!

01:30:32.000 Was he as great an intimidator as Sonny Liston?

01:30:34.000 Yes!

01:30:36.000 Was he a great finisher, like Joe Luz to a certain extent?

01:30:40.000 Yes!

01:30:42.000 But he wasn't a great fighter.

01:30:46.000 Because great fighters, when the fight came to them, they found a way to do what they had to do.

01:30:55.000 He found a way to disappear.

01:30:58.000 They found a way to show up.

01:31:01.000 Yeah, show up.

01:31:02.000 He found a way to go and not show up.

01:31:07.000 And look, you could go talk to a psychiatrist and you could go through all the reasons why.

01:31:13.000 Hiding between a wall when he was a kid.

01:31:15.000 Yeah, that's part of it.

01:31:17.000 I'll tell you another part of it.

01:31:20.000 To be that.

01:31:21.000 Not to be the power puncher.

01:31:23.000 Not to be the aggressor.

01:31:25.000 Not to be just those things.

01:31:27.000 To be the titan.

01:31:30.000 To be the viking.

01:31:32.000 To be the samurai.

01:31:33.000 To be the warrior.

01:31:35.000 To be those things.

01:31:36.000 It has to be inside you.

01:31:38.000 You have to believe it.

01:31:40.000 You know, a lot of times people lie in life.

01:31:43.000 There's certain places you can't lie.

01:31:46.000 You know, sometimes we say that the ring is the chamber of truth.

01:31:49.000 You know, it sounds good and all that, but it is.

01:31:54.000 Because just like in other places in life too, when the moment comes for those kind of serious things, you have to feel like that.

01:32:07.000 You say that you're the conqueror, you're Alexander the Great, you're all those things, right?

01:32:11.000 Okay, words, sounds great.

01:32:13.000 Makes good sound bites.

01:32:15.000 Probably bring more people to the TV. But when the moment comes and you didn't intimidate the guy, that didn't work, okay?

01:32:22.000 We all try it to a certain extent, right?

01:32:24.000 Probably, yeah.

01:32:26.000 I'm sure you've looked at guys certain ways when you were younger and you purposely looked at them in a way to invoke a certain...

01:32:36.000 Kind of action, a certain kind of result from them.

01:32:40.000 Just looking at them in a real serious way that you hoped that it weakened them.

01:32:45.000 Yeah.

01:32:46.000 But because I know your background, you were prepared to do what came after that.

01:32:51.000 But some people aren't.

01:32:53.000 Some people aren't.

01:32:56.000 And Tyson wasn't.

01:32:58.000 As great as he was, I just said it.

01:33:00.000 He's great, guys, that hate me for saying your hero or whatever your favorite guy was.

01:33:05.000 He's great!

01:33:07.000 Just not great in this area.

01:33:10.000 And when that moment comes, you have to...

01:33:17.000 That's where the truth matters.

01:33:19.000 You have to believe...

01:33:22.000 that you're really that guy and if you're a guy that hey listen he was convicted so I think it's fair that raped somebody okay now listen I wasn't in that room and I don't know a lot of people don't think okay but he was convicted or but I know enough people in the business that there was a lot of other bad things that he did that are just not things that that you would probably want to hang around with somebody if you know if you're a halfway decent human being That he did that were weak things,

01:33:48.000 okay?

01:33:49.000 Weak things.

01:33:49.000 So when you do weak things, and you know you did those, and I don't know what, but I'm just saying.

01:33:54.000 You do weak things, and you know they were weak things, and now you got to do a strong thing.

01:34:00.000 How do you become strong when you know that you did those weak things, and you know that's really you?

01:34:05.000 And you got a guy across the way from you named Evander Holyfield. 0.98

01:34:08.000 That doesn't give a shit about how hard you punch. 0.99

01:34:11.000 Doesn't give a crap about what a finisher you are. 0.99

01:34:13.000 Doesn't give a crap about how fast you put your punches together. 0.98

01:34:16.000 He wants to find out. 0.85

01:34:18.000 You're gonna have to make him a believer by doing it.

01:34:20.000 And doing it in a difficult place because he's gonna make it difficult.

01:34:24.000 Because he ain't gonna cooperate.

01:34:29.000 When that happens, you gotta feel like that person.

01:34:35.000 And when you don't feel like that person...

01:34:39.000 You got a problem.

01:34:42.000 And that's what happened.

01:34:43.000 It wasn't a matter when he bit his ear.

01:34:45.000 It wasn't a matter that he was hungry and he was a savage and he was from the street. 1.00

01:34:49.000 Stop the crap! 1.00

01:34:51.000 It was a way to get out. 1.00

01:34:54.000 Because he knew he wasn't that guy.

01:34:57.000 And when you're not that guy, guess what you have a great talent of?

01:35:00.000 Recognize when somebody is.

01:35:03.000 Yeah.

01:35:04.000 That's your greatest talent.

01:35:06.000 You can recognize when somebody is.

01:35:08.000 And you recognize that of where the Holyfield was.

01:35:12.000 And that was his way to get out.

01:35:16.000 And he did.

01:35:17.000 So that's why, again, it's not sour grapes, it's really not, because I'm more selfish than that.

01:35:22.000 I really do care about what my reputation is and whether or not I've been honest about things I say.

01:35:31.000 It doesn't mean I'm right, but it means I believe it.

01:35:34.000 I do care about that.

01:35:37.000 I do.

01:35:40.000 And so, it's not that.

01:35:44.000 It doesn't mean I'm right, but it means I have a reason to believe I'm right.

01:35:48.000 From the way I've lived, from what I've seen, what I've experienced in the business, the human condition, how strong it can be and how weak it can be.

01:36:02.000 He was as strong a guy as you're ever going to see, but he was as weak a person as you're ever going to find.

01:36:13.000 That's intense.

01:36:14.000 But I see what you're saying in terms of you are judging it by the highest standards possible.

01:36:20.000 You're judging it in comparison to other champions.

01:36:25.000 What else are you going to judge it with, Joe?

01:36:27.000 Yes, of course.

01:36:28.000 Well, you look at guys who are known for incredible heart and their ability to come back, like Diego Corrales.

01:36:36.000 Daniel Corrales and some of those wars when you would see...

01:36:40.000 Well, with Castile.

01:36:41.000 Yes.

01:36:41.000 That was one of the greatest fights of all time.

01:36:43.000 The first one.

01:36:43.000 Incredible.

01:36:44.000 Greatest fight of all.

01:36:45.000 Mickey Ward, Arturo Gary, the first one.

01:36:47.000 Right.

01:36:47.000 Not the second, third, the first.

01:36:49.000 The first.

01:36:50.000 Unbelievable.

01:36:51.000 Unbelievable.

01:36:52.000 I mean, if you want to go back, if you want to go back farther, a lot of people won't know this, but Bobby Chacon was involved in a lot, and unfortunately he paid the price, okay?

01:37:01.000 But Bobby Chacon in the 70s, 80s, he was involved in those fights every other day.

01:37:06.000 You know, I'm just kidding, but he was in too many of those fights.

01:37:11.000 And unfortunately, you don't know about Bobby Chacon.

01:37:14.000 You talk to somebody again, like the baseball thing.

01:37:16.000 You talk about the average guy, Bobby Chacon, who the hell's that?

01:37:22.000 Who the hell's that?

01:37:23.000 Unfortunately, it's a guy that wouldn't know his name anymore.

01:37:28.000 But he was a pretty special guy in that ring.

01:37:32.000 He was pretty damn tough.

01:37:34.000 Tougher than most people.

01:37:37.000 There's guys that unfortunately relied on that toughness, right?

01:37:41.000 Yeah.

01:37:42.000 Like, when it comes to guys known for incredible chins, that can be a detriment.

01:37:47.000 Yes.

01:37:48.000 And it can be...

01:37:49.000 If that's all you have, or if you think that's all you have.

01:37:52.000 Cuss used to put it this way. 1.00

01:37:53.000 Cuss used to, because he wanted me to be a great trainer.

01:37:56.000 So Cuss used to always be with me all the time, you know, saying things. 0.89

01:37:59.000 And Cuss would say, Teddy! 0.98

01:38:02.000 Got two tough guys.

01:38:04.000 Okay, gotcha.

01:38:08.000 Now, what's tough?

01:38:11.000 It's a prerequisite to being a fighter.

01:38:13.000 You better be tough.

01:38:14.000 But what level?

01:38:16.000 It's all levels, degrees.

01:38:18.000 I got you.

01:38:19.000 But how special is being tough?

01:38:23.000 Because if you're a fighter, you should be tough.

01:38:25.000 I got you.

01:38:25.000 I'm listening.

01:38:27.000 So you got two tough guys.

01:38:30.000 But one of them is smart.

01:38:33.000 Taught.

01:38:35.000 Developed.

01:38:39.000 That's him.

01:38:41.000 He's tougher now.

01:38:43.000 That's how he explains it.

01:38:45.000 Tougher because he's smart.

01:38:46.000 Yeah.

01:38:46.000 Tough and smart.

01:38:48.000 He goes from here, he's here.

01:38:51.000 Because he's not just dependent only on toughness.

01:38:54.000 So he's tougher than this guy.

01:38:55.000 Right.

01:38:56.000 Because you don't have to depend on just that.

01:38:58.000 Right.

01:38:58.000 You might not even have to get to it.

01:39:01.000 It's there as a reserve.

01:39:02.000 Right.

01:39:03.000 It's always there to call on.

01:39:05.000 Like an army, you call on, you need it.

01:39:07.000 Right.

01:39:07.000 But he's not dependent just on that.

01:39:10.000 Isn't that the balance, though?

01:39:12.000 Is knowing that you have it.

01:39:13.000 Yeah.

01:39:14.000 Knowing that you have it and it's there.

01:39:16.000 There it is.

01:39:16.000 See what you just said?

01:39:17.000 Yeah.

01:39:18.000 You have to know that you're it.

01:39:19.000 Yeah.

01:39:20.000 Tyson didn't know he was it.

01:39:22.000 Will you ever admit that?

01:39:23.000 No, he'd probably knock me and say, whatever.

01:39:26.000 It's okay.

01:39:28.000 It's okay.

01:39:29.000 Well, there's certain people that you can't question.

01:39:31.000 And Evander Holyfield is one of those people.

01:39:33.000 That's why that fight was so fascinating.

01:39:35.000 Because Evander Holyfield, he is a 100% warrior.

01:39:40.000 Well, he had the right nickname.

01:39:41.000 Most of them don't.

01:39:43.000 Most of them don't have the right fight nickname in whatever they do.

01:39:45.000 But the real deal.

01:39:47.000 He was the real deal.

01:39:49.000 You know why?

01:39:51.000 You want to know why?

01:39:52.000 I mean, trace it back.

01:39:54.000 Cus always told me this, but I learned it innately on my own, too.

01:39:57.000 But trace it back to the parents.

01:39:59.000 Trace it back to the background.

01:40:01.000 Trace it back to all that stuff.

01:40:03.000 Trace it back.

01:40:05.000 He didn't live up to something.

01:40:07.000 He didn't face something.

01:40:08.000 He didn't do whatever it was that was supposed to.

01:40:10.000 He had a mother that he talked about a few times.

01:40:14.000 And I'm sorry if I'm not saying exact, but it's there.

01:40:22.000 And a great mother, obviously, but they grew up in Georgia. 0.69

01:40:28.000 I think it was Atlanta, but whatever, suburb of Georgia.

01:40:32.000 And she, a different age, you know, different time, down south and all that.

01:40:37.000 Had a little, I guess, a little shack in the back with a thing called twitches.

01:40:41.000 Switches.

01:40:42.000 Switches, I'm sorry. 1.00

01:40:44.000 I'm twitching.

01:40:48.000 Switches.

01:40:52.000 And she basically had different sized switches, you know?

01:40:56.000 Short ones, long ones, medium ones, depending on the occasion.

01:41:01.000 And when he didn't live up to what he had to, tell the truth, whatever, be accountable, okay?

01:41:09.000 Face what he had to face.

01:41:11.000 Whatever.

01:41:12.000 She had a switch for him.

01:41:16.000 And you know what?

01:41:19.000 It formed him.

01:41:22.000 Because he faced things.

01:41:24.000 Tyson, on the other hand, and listen, did he ask for it?

01:41:28.000 No.

01:41:29.000 No, he didn't ask for that upbringing.

01:41:31.000 I get it.

01:41:33.000 But I know people have that upbringing and they get to a point they can make a left turn instead of a right turn.

01:41:39.000 It's your ability to make a choice.

01:41:41.000 Don't you think there's also the overwhelming hype and celebrity involved in Mike Tyson in his prime?

01:41:47.000 It was probably so difficult for him to even understand himself.

01:41:50.000 Yeah.

01:41:50.000 But what he did understand, and I'm glad you said that.

01:41:57.000 Backwards.

01:41:57.000 What he did understand...

01:42:03.000 There was a way out.

01:42:05.000 Evander learned there was no way out.

01:42:08.000 You know what I mean, right?

01:42:11.000 Somebody would come and pay, and he did a lot of things before he became champion.

01:42:16.000 And somebody was always there with a check or cash or whatever, and would absolve him from it.

01:42:22.000 Would not have to face what he did.

01:42:25.000 But there was a switch that Evander had to face.

01:42:28.000 And that's what made him what it made him.

01:42:31.000 And that's what allowed Tyson, part of what allowed Tyson, look, you make your own choices at a certain point in life, so let's not make too many excuses, but it is part of it that he was formed by what he was allowed to do when he shouldn't have been allowed to do those things.

01:42:49.000 And that was one of the issues that you had with Cuss, right? 1.00

01:42:51.000 Yeah.

01:42:52.000 That you felt like Cus was ignoring his own principles and teaching because this guy was so special.

01:42:59.000 Yeah, and Cus was getting older. 1.00

01:43:00.000 And Cus recognized he didn't have much time left, and this guy had a legitimate shot at being a world champion.

01:43:05.000 And for Cus, everything in his unit, everything in the world of boxing success and everything, he was great.

01:43:10.000 He was special, Cus.

01:43:11.000 His whole life, he didn't get married for a reason.

01:43:13.000 Because he was married to boxing, as he said, that it wouldn't have been fair.

01:43:17.000 I mean, this was a different guy.

01:43:19.000 That it was boxing.

01:43:20.000 His whole life.

01:43:21.000 Everything.

01:43:21.000 Life was boxing.

01:43:23.000 And lessons were connected to boxing.

01:43:27.000 Everything.

01:43:28.000 And principles, boxing.

01:43:32.000 And...

01:43:34.000 So this is a, you know, this is a guy that his whole, you know, you use that word legacy, but really his whole existence was boxing and for him it was heavyweight champs.

01:43:47.000 He had Floyd Patterson, youngest heavyweight champ ever.

01:43:50.000 That was cuss. 1.00

01:43:51.000 That was cuss. 1.00

01:43:53.000 It wasn't about lightweights.

01:43:54.000 Listen, he had lightweights, he had welterweights.

01:43:56.000 Jose Torres.

01:43:57.000 Yeah, Jose Torres, light heavyweight champion.

01:43:59.000 Exactly right.

01:44:00.000 He had other guys too.

01:44:01.000 But it was the heavyweight champion of the world because it was around what we talked about before when boxing was the biggest sport, bigger than baseball, and it was the heavyweight champion of the world was Babe Ruth.

01:44:11.000 It was Rocky Marciano.

01:44:13.000 And you're going to say that before you leave this earth, that you have a chance to have another heavyweight champ that might be the best, could be one of the best ever, and could break Patterson's record, which was part of the plan.

01:44:29.000 Part of the plan when Cus was alive, you're going to break Patterson's record.

01:44:32.000 He broke it.

01:44:33.000 He became the youngest heavyweight champion.

01:44:36.000 And so when you...

01:44:39.000 Float that out there, if you will.

01:44:41.000 And tempt a guy with that. 0.98

01:44:43.000 Even a great guy like Cuss, some things are going to be pushed to the side.

01:44:49.000 Compromised.

01:44:49.000 Yeah, compromised.

01:44:50.000 And he did.

01:44:52.000 Do you think if he didn't do that, that Tyson would have been a different person?

01:44:57.000 I'm going to use his words.

01:45:00.000 That was told to me by a great promoter, Mickey Duffy, passed away.

01:45:05.000 He was close to Jim Jacobs, he was close to Cuss, and he was up there sometimes after I left and all that.

01:45:11.000 And Mickey wanted me to train all his fighters.

01:45:14.000 And he was a great promoter, Mickey.

01:45:16.000 He had great sayings, he was a very witty guy, but he was a sharp guy.

01:45:20.000 Boxing was his life too.

01:45:22.000 And he ran everything in London with three partners.

01:45:25.000 One of them was Jarvis Astaire who owned Wembley Stadium.

01:45:27.000 So they were powerful.

01:45:29.000 They ran everything.

01:45:30.000 They were the cartel in London back in those days.

01:45:35.000 He told me that before Cus died, that Cus had said some nice things about Teddy Atlas.

01:45:46.000 But he said, and look, I know there's a danger that this can be convenient.

01:45:51.000 You know what I mean? 1.00

01:45:52.000 Self-serving crap. 1.00

01:45:55.000 Sometimes you gotta trust whatever. 1.00

01:45:58.000 I was told by Mickey that he said that Teddy Atlas was right.

01:46:05.000 But where he was wrong was he was gonna get in the way of the possibility of making a great fighter.

01:46:16.000 If he did things his way as far as the disciplining and the, you know, whatever.

01:46:22.000 In other words, whether he left it like that.

01:46:25.000 So I don't know.

01:46:26.000 So I know what I think it meant that Tyson wouldn't have been around if you disciplined or he would have left.

01:46:33.000 I don't know.

01:46:34.000 Because I don't know that he had those options because he was a ward of the state.

01:46:38.000 And, you know, he was coming out of, obviously, a criminal situation.

01:46:43.000 He was coming out of a juvenile detention center called Tryon up 30 miles outside of Albany.

01:46:51.000 You know, so I don't know.

01:46:53.000 But basically, if Teddy did it his way, he was right, but he was wrong because it would have ruined the possibility of a great fighter.

01:47:01.000 And I couldn't let that happen.

01:47:04.000 So...

01:47:05.000 I don't think that's...

01:47:06.000 I don't know if it's true, actually.

01:47:08.000 I don't know.

01:47:09.000 You know what?

01:47:09.000 I was about to say, I don't think that's true.

01:47:13.000 Because, of course, it's me.

01:47:14.000 I want to make myself feel good.

01:47:17.000 So I want to say you could have had the best of both worlds.

01:47:19.000 You could have had maybe a better person.

01:47:21.000 Or within the realm of a better person, right?

01:47:24.000 Boundaries, right?

01:47:25.000 There were no boundaries.

01:47:26.000 Maybe those boundaries would have made a difference, right?

01:47:28.000 And you still would have had the talent.

01:47:30.000 The talent wasn't going to dissipate because of the discipline that you put on them as a human being.

01:47:37.000 That wasn't going to change, but because we're saying that it wasn't going to happen.

01:47:44.000 Maybe you lose him.

01:47:46.000 Maybe he goes to someone else at a certain point in his development.

01:47:49.000 Maybe that's what he meant.

01:47:49.000 I don't know.

01:47:50.000 Well, you had that with Shannon Briggs.

01:47:53.000 Yeah, Shannon Briggs came from Brownsville, and I had him as a young developing pro that we got to a certain point.

01:48:01.000 And you also had that situation with him where you felt like he wasn't 100% in.

01:48:05.000 He wasn't doing the things you wanted him to do.

01:48:08.000 He was lacking in a certain amount of discipline or he was distracted in a certain amount of ways that bothered you to the point where you didn't want to work with him anymore.

01:48:19.000 He wasn't committed, I didn't think, completely, but he was a smart kid, a particular kid.

01:48:25.000 Talented.

01:48:26.000 Talented, very talented.

01:48:27.000 Smart, you know, he knew how to market himself.

01:48:29.000 He had the dreadlocks and he made them orange and, you know, nobody was doing that back then.

01:48:35.000 And he could punch.

01:48:36.000 He was talented.

01:48:37.000 And he looked good, you know?

01:48:39.000 Yeah.

01:48:40.000 Um...

01:48:43.000 But his real commitment, I didn't think, because maybe to his credit, he was smart and he thought of other things, but he never really bought in that the end all was boxing,

01:48:59.000 that that was the complete...

01:49:02.000 I don't want to use just the...

01:49:05.000 Average, same, standard word, commitment.

01:49:08.000 Right.

01:49:09.000 Like, what the frig is that?

01:49:10.000 Sometimes, like, commitment.

01:49:12.000 But more than commitment, he said all the right things because they had investors and they had different people.

01:49:21.000 It's not a bad thing.

01:49:22.000 Everyone, if you're talented enough, you draw those kind of things.

01:49:25.000 To his credit, he deserved it.

01:49:28.000 He did something to bring investors and people to back him.

01:49:35.000 But he got so used to saying what they needed to hear that he never knew what he needed to hear.

01:49:42.000 He never...

01:49:43.000 And what he needed to hear and believe was that I'm really going to do it.

01:49:48.000 He got so good at selling it that he never got good at buying it.

01:49:55.000 He never really...

01:49:56.000 He just thought that...

01:49:58.000 Ride this train in two...

01:50:02.000 I'll ride this train till I fall off or till it comes off the track or till it comes to a stop.

01:50:07.000 But it is going to come to a stop.

01:50:09.000 And I'm not saying everyone can have that confidence.

01:50:12.000 Everyone can have that belief.

01:50:13.000 I'm not saying that.

01:50:13.000 But you have to get it somewhere, sometime.

01:50:16.000 He didn't believe that the train was really going here.

01:50:19.000 He believed that it was just going to go to a place where it was going to be better than where it was.

01:50:24.000 And that he'll ride it But he's not committed to staying on it when the turns come up and it gets a little fast.

01:50:36.000 He doesn't believe that he's really going to get there.

01:50:39.000 He believes that when that first turn, second turn, third turn, whatever, on the rails comes, that that's going to be it.

01:50:46.000 But it took him a better place than he was at.

01:50:49.000 It earned him some money.

01:50:50.000 It got him some things.

01:50:51.000 And it was good, but he never really, there's that word committed, but he never really believed, and a lot of people don't, they find their way along the way, but he never believed that what he told the people around him that he was gonna be.

01:51:10.000 He never believed that.

01:51:12.000 His personality was too good.

01:51:15.000 His personality was too sharp.

01:51:17.000 He could say all the right things and it became easier to say the right things than to believe the right thing.

01:51:24.000 Does that make sense?

01:51:25.000 It does make sense.

01:51:26.000 This uncompromising psychology of combat sports, this uncompromising philosophy, is this something that you got from Cus? 0.52

01:51:33.000 Is this something you inherently understood from working closely with these guys and taking them to these smokers in the South Bronx?

01:51:40.000 Where does this come from?

01:51:42.000 Just raw honesty?

01:51:44.000 Seeing it all?

01:51:46.000 Listen, it comes from, again, you don't want to be corny, but it comes from living a certain way, life, seeing things, traveling through things.

01:51:54.000 That's part of it, definitely.

01:51:56.000 But the articulation of it, the blueprint, the map of it, the seeing of it, the visualization of it on paper comes from Cuss.

01:52:09.000 He was a genius.

01:52:11.000 That was his world.

01:52:12.000 The theory of it, that's the better way.

01:52:16.000 The theory of it comes from Cus.

01:52:18.000 The living, the doing of it comes from my father.

01:52:22.000 I had a father that most boxing people don't come from, although Barrera did, great Mexican fighter, but he came from something like that.

01:52:31.000 He wanted to be a lawyer, actually.

01:52:33.000 But anyway, and you think Mexico, you think, well, he came from the dirt floors and the stuff which a lot of guys come from, and they pull themselves out, and that's part of, obviously, the motivation. 0.97

01:52:45.000 But My father was a doctor.

01:52:51.000 He was a GP, practiced 55 years.

01:52:54.000 Staten Island, New York.

01:52:55.000 He came from the Bronx.

01:52:59.000 He founded two hospitals.

01:53:01.000 He built a hospital with 22 beds in.

01:53:04.000 It was called Sunnyside.

01:53:05.000 I don't know if that stuff even existed in Google back then.

01:53:07.000 But anyway, it was Sunnyside Hospital.

01:53:10.000 And he built it so that All people... 0.98

01:53:16.000 Listen, he built us to poor people.

01:53:18.000 He grew up very poor.

01:53:22.000 He just...

01:53:24.000 He wasn't that kind of like, oh, it's because I'm...

01:53:26.000 He just...

01:53:27.000 He built his hospital...

01:53:30.000 So that the less of people with less could get hospital care because back in those days there were no HMOs, there was no Obamacare, there was no, you know, whether you think it's good, it's bad, it doesn't matter, there was nothing.

01:53:44.000 You wound up in a clinic maybe, unless you had a doctor that took care of you.

01:53:50.000 And there were other doctors.

01:53:52.000 He wasn't the only one.

01:53:54.000 But he was the only one I knew.

01:53:56.000 And he founded Sunnyside Hospital with 22 beds in it.

01:54:01.000 It lasted about 25 years until the Verrazano Bridge was built.

01:54:05.000 And the city put the highway in there.

01:54:08.000 It changed Staten Island, obviously.

01:54:10.000 It connected Brooklyn to Staten Island.

01:54:12.000 You didn't have to take a ferry boat.

01:54:14.000 And he...

01:54:17.000 The city bought it from him.

01:54:19.000 And then he went and found a doctor's hospital with 60 other doctors, but he was the original founder.

01:54:25.000 Him and a guy named Dr. Timpon Senior.

01:54:28.000 He founded Doctors, which was a bigger hospital.

01:54:31.000 It lasted 30 years and it was a bigger hospital.

01:54:33.000 But, so, he was a guy that, he didn't waste time telling me how to live and all that stuff.

01:54:43.000 The only thing I remember was, you say something, do it.

01:54:48.000 What does that mean?

01:54:49.000 And then I watched him as a kid.

01:54:52.000 He was my hero.

01:54:53.000 I mean, I like Mickey Mantle and I like Joe Lewis, you know, all those things, just like any other kid.

01:55:00.000 But if I had a hero, I didn't know what a hero was.

01:55:03.000 I'm not going to make believe I knew, but I know now what it's supposed to mean, right?

01:55:08.000 So he was my hero.

01:55:11.000 And I just...

01:55:13.000 I watched him...

01:55:17.000 You know, when I went in his room one time, when he graduated NYU, they didn't have money, so he had to get scholarship, he had to get help from different things, whatever they had to do.

01:55:29.000 But he went to NYU Medical School, NYU undergrad, and then he interned at Bellevue.

01:55:37.000 He wasn't a big talker, but he did tell me, when you graduate at Bellevue, you're ready for anything.

01:55:44.000 So later in my life, I took that as the South Bronx.

01:55:48.000 You graduated to South Bronx to smoke because you were ready for anything.

01:55:51.000 You learn there, you're ready for anything.

01:55:54.000 You learn how to matchmake, you're ready.

01:55:55.000 You learn how to be a trainer, you're ready for anything.

01:55:58.000 So he...

01:56:01.000 You know, he came...

01:56:03.000 I did knock on his door.

01:56:05.000 When he was interning in Belfia, a young guy, you know, apparently he saved some obese woman's life that had a heart attack in the street.

01:56:15.000 He dragged her off the street, whatever.

01:56:18.000 You never get the whole story.

01:56:20.000 But he saved her life.

01:56:23.000 And...

01:56:25.000 He developed a hernia, and it grew into a double hernia.

01:56:29.000 And my father was the kind of guy, he didn't let anything interfere with his patients, his work.

01:56:34.000 He didn't take time to get it.

01:56:35.000 So he carried it for 30 years, and he finally got it, you know.

01:56:38.000 And so it would become a double hernia.

01:56:40.000 I know hernias now, they do the mesh, and they do laze in there. 1.00

01:56:43.000 But in those days, it was a more serious thing.

01:56:46.000 It was evasive surgery.

01:56:49.000 It was different.

01:56:51.000 It was.

01:56:52.000 And it was painful, apparently.

01:56:57.000 And I didn't knock on the door.

01:56:58.000 I was a young kid, you know?

01:57:00.000 Very young, but I still remember.

01:57:03.000 And there was a mirror here and he was over there near his bed.

01:57:08.000 And the mirror was here.

01:57:09.000 So I opened the door.

01:57:10.000 I didn't knock.

01:57:11.000 Should have knocked, obviously.

01:57:13.000 And I saw he was bent over in pain.

01:57:16.000 I mean, I could recognize.

01:57:18.000 And he was wearing a thing I had no idea.

01:57:20.000 It was like...

01:57:21.000 I didn't know what the frick is that.

01:57:24.000 But it was a...

01:57:25.000 I probably need you again to...

01:57:28.000 Give me the proper pronunciation, thank you for...

01:57:30.000 But it was trust, I think. 0.99

01:57:33.000 Trust, yeah, to suck his guts in. 0.99

01:57:34.000 Yeah, it was leather, it was two things like this. 0.99

01:57:38.000 And, you know, I was like, I don't know, what the frick is that, you know?

01:57:43.000 But I could see he was in pain, and he had this thing on, and he got mad, told me to get out.

01:57:50.000 And, um...

01:57:53.000 For the rest of my young life, I knew there was something wrong.

01:57:56.000 I knew he was in pain every day, and he never showed it.

01:58:01.000 He never used it as an excuse.

01:58:03.000 He worked every day, including Sunday.

01:58:06.000 His office hours were a joke, because if it said on the thing, you know, 4.30, he stayed till 9.30, because he didn't leave till the last patient left.

01:58:15.000 And most of them weren't paying him.

01:58:19.000 You know, he took the patients that other doctors didn't take.

01:58:22.000 Took all the Medicare, Medicaid, whatever it was, whatever the right one is, basically welfare.

01:58:27.000 He took all of them and, you know, he made the...

01:58:33.000 He had the biggest practice on Staten Island, maybe the biggest in New York.

01:58:37.000 So all the drug salesmen...

01:58:44.000 They all migrated to his place.

01:58:46.000 You want to get his account, Dr. Ellis, to sell the new stuff, to sell the drugs, to sell the pills.

01:58:53.000 And he used them.

01:58:56.000 He didn't hide it, but he made them give them a huge amount of samples.

01:59:03.000 You know why?

01:59:04.000 Because his patients couldn't afford to fill the prescriptions, so he would give them the free samples.

01:59:12.000 I used to always wonder, what the freak all these things are in our house?

01:59:15.000 You open up a closet, there was like things falling on you, you know?

01:59:18.000 Like pills and stuff.

01:59:19.000 And like, what is...

01:59:20.000 But it was so he could give it to them so they didn't have to fill a prescription because they didn't...

01:59:27.000 Again, there was none of those things that pay for your prescriptions that they do today.

01:59:32.000 And they couldn't afford it.

01:59:34.000 They couldn't afford to go to him.

01:59:36.000 But he charged them $3, $5, whatever.

01:59:40.000 Whatever it was that they could afford.

01:59:43.000 And, you know, he made money.

01:59:45.000 I mean, he was a doctor, but he didn't make the money that other doctors were making.

01:59:50.000 But he was a real doctor, right, for me at least.

01:59:54.000 And, but more importantly, he didn't talk about it, he did it.

02:00:01.000 And he, every day he was in pain.

02:00:03.000 Later on, I was a little older, but I was still a young teenager.

02:00:07.000 I saw him put a white pill under his tongue.

02:00:10.000 I didn't know what the freak that was.

02:00:12.000 Later on, I found out it was nitro.

02:00:14.000 That his heart would skip beats.

02:00:17.000 But he still didn't say a word.

02:00:20.000 Didn't talk about it.

02:00:21.000 You know, if he didn't have a son who thought he was his hero, I wouldn't have known because I looked at everything he did.

02:00:30.000 And, you know, he did house calls.

02:00:35.000 He did house calls until he was 80 years old, charging $5, whatever, nothing.

02:00:41.000 He had patients that could not get to an emergency room.

02:00:45.000 They didn't have the ability to get there.

02:00:47.000 They didn't have a car.

02:00:48.000 They were in shape where they couldn't get there, couldn't take a bus, whatever.

02:00:52.000 So he did house calls.

02:00:53.000 And the patients, when he died, they all said, hey, sometimes you have to wait till 1 in the morning, but he got there.

02:01:00.000 That was the thing.

02:01:01.000 He always got there.

02:01:03.000 He always delivered.

02:01:05.000 And with all those things that I knew as, you know, as his kid, he never made an excuse.

02:01:14.000 And he was a fighter.

02:01:18.000 You know, in my own way, he was the, you know, he was the best fighter I ever saw.

02:01:24.000 And he didn't talk about it, he didn't articulate it, you know, he didn't wax poetic about it, like Cuss did, and Cuss was a great man.

02:01:33.000 But he did it.

02:01:34.000 And he did it right in front of my face.

02:01:38.000 And, uh...

02:01:40.000 And it stayed with me.

02:01:44.000 You know, I didn't understand a lot of it until I got older.

02:01:48.000 But then suddenly I understood all of it.

02:01:53.000 And so if somebody says, hey, you know, I can't do this because, you know, last night my girlfriend, my wife yelled at me and she caught me with a girl.

02:02:05.000 I mean, I don't want to hear it.

02:02:09.000 I don't want to hear it.

02:02:11.000 I don't want to hear it.

02:02:14.000 And listen, it was a curse to me too in some ways.

02:02:16.000 It's not perfect because when my father died, I went to the funeral and then I went to the gym.

02:02:22.000 And I didn't tell nobody.

02:02:24.000 And listen, I probably shouldn't...

02:02:26.000 A lot of people would probably say, you can't live your life that way by what people say.

02:02:31.000 I get it.

02:02:32.000 But I'm just saying, I'm aware of it, alright?

02:02:34.000 A lot of people would say, you shouldn't have went to the gym.

02:02:39.000 My father, we lost a kid.

02:02:41.000 He was five years old.

02:02:42.000 And I wasn't going to say this because I don't know how some people say it, but if it is, it is, right?

02:02:48.000 So you can take it the way you want to take it.

02:02:51.000 I know the kind of man he was.

02:02:55.000 You talked about commitment, absoluteness.

02:02:57.000 You talked about certain things, right?

02:03:00.000 Maybe just explain some of it.

02:03:02.000 We had little Todd.

02:03:04.000 He was our brother.

02:03:05.000 He was born with problems. 0.96

02:03:07.000 He was retarded. 1.00

02:03:08.000 You don't use that word anymore, but in those days, it was okay to use that word. 0.99

02:03:11.000 That's what he was, okay?

02:03:13.000 Now, of course, you say that he was impaired, mentally impaired, whatever.

02:03:17.000 Okay, he's a beautiful kid.

02:03:19.000 I remember him.

02:03:22.000 I was older.

02:03:23.000 I was the oldest.

02:03:24.000 He was very loving.

02:03:26.000 I remember he used to jump into my arms when I come home.

02:03:29.000 So I know he was very trusting because I would walk up the steps and he would jump from the steps.

02:03:34.000 If I didn't catch him, obviously he would have fell.

02:03:36.000 So it was part of his condition, but it was part of his lovingness and his trust.

02:03:43.000 So when he was five years old, he had to get surgery.

02:03:45.000 He had a problem with his heart.

02:03:46.000 It was open-heart surgery.

02:03:47.000 Open-heart surgery was a whole different story back then, right?

02:03:51.000 And where did he get the operation?

02:03:53.000 Yeah, he did.

02:03:54.000 In my father's hospital.

02:03:55.000 My father did not perform the surgery, of course.

02:03:58.000 You're not going to do that.

02:03:59.000 But he was there.

02:04:01.000 There was a few surgeons.

02:04:02.000 Might have been five, whatever it was.

02:04:07.000 And, um...

02:04:11.000 My mother was the opposite.

02:04:12.000 My father was a Hungarian-Jewish background.

02:04:15.000 You know, he had no father.

02:04:17.000 He died young.

02:04:18.000 His mother, they were very poor.

02:04:20.000 My mother grew up poor, too.

02:04:22.000 She was Irish.

02:04:22.000 Irish Catholic.

02:04:25.000 Different mix.

02:04:26.000 And my father didn't have time for religion.

02:04:28.000 My father had time for living.

02:04:31.000 And for healing people.

02:04:33.000 So he let us be brought up Catholic.

02:04:35.000 That was up to my mother.

02:04:38.000 And...

02:04:41.000 So he...

02:04:41.000 They were different.

02:04:44.000 They were the opposites.

02:04:45.000 My mother was beautiful.

02:04:46.000 She was Miss Staten Island.

02:04:48.000 Her mother didn't let... 1.00

02:04:49.000 Her father died also young.

02:04:53.000 Her mother was a tough Irish woman. 1.00

02:04:56.000 And she... 1.00

02:04:58.000 My grandmother...

02:04:58.000 She did not allow her from winning Miss Staten Island.

02:05:02.000 She was supposed to go to...

02:05:03.000 Obviously to Miss America.

02:05:05.000 She wouldn't let her go.

02:05:06.000 I'll say it right now. 1.00

02:05:07.000 She thought that was for whores. 1.00

02:05:09.000 Like you go do that, you know, even though she wanted, she led, that was cute. 0.99

02:05:12.000 But now you're gonna go Miss America, you're gonna go, no, we're not.

02:05:16.000 She said, no, you're not doing that.

02:05:18.000 And she had a chance to go and try out for the Rockettes, which most people out there know what they are.

02:05:23.000 The dance group and Radio City Music Hall, no, that's for those people too.

02:05:28.000 No.

02:05:30.000 So, she was beautiful.

02:05:32.000 And she had a great personality.

02:05:34.000 And she loved social life.

02:05:38.000 And she was the antithesis of my father in a lot of ways.

02:05:42.000 And I guess opposites attract.

02:05:45.000 And if you want to make a movie out of it, she was sick. 0.88

02:05:50.000 And he, she wasn't getting better.

02:05:53.000 And my father was in the hospital.

02:05:56.000 He was in, I guess his patient was in a dual room, whatever, whatever.

02:06:01.000 He became a doctor and helped her get better.

02:06:06.000 She had a form of hepatitis.

02:06:09.000 Back in the days when you didn't get it from needles only.

02:06:12.000 You could get it from eating a bad clam.

02:06:16.000 Whatever.

02:06:17.000 I don't know if it was C, whatever it is.

02:06:20.000 I'm not gonna tell you because I don't know for sure.

02:06:23.000 And she was very sick.

02:06:26.000 And anyway, he took care of her.

02:06:29.000 And they got married.

02:06:30.000 They fell in love and all that stuff.

02:06:35.000 So, you know, just my father was, like I said, my father was, he was dedicated to that life.

02:06:51.000 But the thing that he did that I started to say, and I don't want to give that background, I guess, but...

02:07:01.000 My mother was very emotional.

02:07:03.000 My father's a doctor.

02:07:04.000 He hid his emotions.

02:07:07.000 And when Todd went for surgery, he died on the operating table.

02:07:11.000 He had told my mother, my father never lied.

02:07:16.000 He told her the risk, but my mother wanted to believe what she wanted to believe.

02:07:20.000 My mother said, you said he would be okay.

02:07:25.000 You know, he didn't say that, but, you know.

02:07:28.000 But, of course, my mother, my father was her hero, too.

02:07:33.000 You know?

02:07:34.000 Made her better.

02:07:35.000 Can't make his son better?

02:07:38.000 So he died.

02:07:39.000 We all got split up.

02:07:43.000 I had to live with an uncle that was single and he was a very handsome guy, just like my mother.

02:07:47.000 So he had girlfriends coming in and out all the time and, you know, he was a young, good-looking guy and liked to go out.

02:07:58.000 I wind up sitting in a bar waiting for him.

02:08:00.000 I get a lot of bags of potato chips.

02:08:04.000 A lot of Cokes.

02:08:05.000 You know, he finally come back, I have eight Cokes in front of me.

02:08:10.000 Maybe ten.

02:08:12.000 You know, and we got split up and my mother was sleeping in a cemetery.

02:08:17.000 She had a nervous breakdown.

02:08:20.000 But, you know, she got herself together.

02:08:22.000 She overcame it.

02:08:24.000 But, um...

02:08:26.000 She never forgave him.

02:08:31.000 You know, and, um...

02:08:34.000 You know, she was Irish and then the easy thing is the Irish curse and all that stuff. 1.00

02:08:38.000 But, you know, she drank. 0.74

02:08:41.000 But, um...

02:08:47.000 She's a great woman.

02:08:48.000 But, you know, she was tragically hurt.

02:08:52.000 And, you know, everyone copes with things differently.

02:08:55.000 It was difficult.

02:08:59.000 And that day, with all of what I just described, and again, I'm always afraid to say it, but you say it because it's part of it, right?

02:09:08.000 Maybe it explains, maybe some people hold it against them when I say this.

02:09:14.000 But he got a phone call that day on his answering service.

02:09:17.000 You didn't have pages in those days.

02:09:19.000 He had an answering service.

02:09:21.000 He told them to call him when he had requests for house calls.

02:09:26.000 Two in the morning.

02:09:27.000 As a kid, I used to hear the phone ring.

02:09:30.000 It was two in the morning.

02:09:31.000 I started getting dressed.

02:09:33.000 I came out and I was on the stairs waiting for him to go.

02:09:37.000 He'd look at me.

02:09:37.000 What are you doing?

02:09:38.000 I'm going with you.

02:09:40.000 No, you're not.

02:09:40.000 Get back in the room.

02:09:42.000 You know?

02:09:43.000 Sometimes you let me go with them.

02:09:48.000 Anyway, this day obviously was a different day.

02:09:51.000 And his patient's daughter had a child who was very, very sick.

02:10:00.000 She did not know that her son...

02:10:02.000 The mother knew, but the daughter didn't know that his son died that day.

02:10:06.000 That his son was buried that day, I should say.

02:10:11.000 So she called.

02:10:13.000 He went and did a house call on the day that his son got buried.

02:10:23.000 You know, that's tough.

02:10:24.000 But that was what, you know, that's what his, you know, that's what his, um...

02:10:29.000 So when people tell me that they can't keep a commitment because this happened, it doesn't go with me.

02:10:36.000 That's all.

02:10:38.000 And that day after I buried my father, I went to the gym and I trained Michael Moore.

02:10:46.000 Because I was, you know, that's what I was doing.

02:10:48.000 That was my job.

02:10:55.000 Character.

02:10:55.000 Real character.

02:10:57.000 I mean, whatever it is, it is.

02:10:59.000 Whatever it is, that's strength.

02:11:00.000 Call it whatever name, whatever noise you want to make.

02:11:04.000 There's not a lot of people like that.

02:11:06.000 That explains a lot.

02:11:10.000 Explains a lot about your unyielding understanding and appreciation of real commitment.

02:11:22.000 Yeah, I mean, that's...

02:11:24.000 Yeah, that's...

02:11:26.000 You almost don't have a choice, you know, because to not...

02:11:32.000 Listen, you just do it.

02:11:34.000 But to not follow that...

02:11:40.000 In some ways, it's like you're not honoring your father because your fathers leave you certain things.

02:11:49.000 You know, they leave you, you know, something in the will maybe.

02:11:52.000 They leave you whatever.

02:11:54.000 They might leave you a special trinket of something that you always remember, a car, a little thing, whatever.

02:12:01.000 But they leave you something if you're fortunate enough to have a father.

02:12:07.000 I know not everyone is.

02:12:08.000 I get it.

02:12:09.000 But when they leave you that, you got to cherish it.

02:12:21.000 You should.

02:12:22.000 And that's what he left me.

02:12:24.000 So, to be...

02:12:26.000 It's not that I'm a good guy or a bad guy or a great guy or a lesser guy or anything.

02:12:31.000 I'm not.

02:12:32.000 I'm not any of that.

02:12:33.000 But I'm loyal to that because...

02:12:39.000 You should be loyal to that.

02:12:40.000 Does that make sense?

02:12:42.000 I mean, you know, I'm loyal to that idea.

02:12:45.000 I'm loyal to that living.

02:12:46.000 I'm loyal to that...

02:12:48.000 Just that stance that he took in living his life.

02:12:58.000 That belief that, you know...

02:13:03.000 Principle of living, whatever you want to call it, all those words that make it sound better, but I would feel that by not doing it that way, when you're lucky enough to have a man that kind of taught you what he taught you without talking too much,

02:13:25.000 and that might be the greatest teacher, is by seeing, right?

02:13:30.000 Examples of it.

02:13:32.000 But if you don't honor that, then you're not honoring your father.

02:13:40.000 What he stood for.

02:13:41.000 And at the end of the day, I was pissed because for everything that he did, there's no...

02:13:49.000 I know this sounds... 0.70

02:13:52.000 Foolish, but there's no statue of him. 0.64

02:13:55.000 And so, for me, there should be something. 0.99

02:14:02.000 Because he did it his whole life.

02:14:04.000 You know, we all have moments of light, moments of Where we maybe worry about what's there when we're gone and where we're going and maybe we change.

02:14:18.000 And I've seen it.

02:14:19.000 I've seen it with friends.

02:14:20.000 I get it.

02:14:20.000 I understand it.

02:14:21.000 But where we start trying to live differently because we start wondering about what's coming next when we're gone.

02:14:30.000 Death, whatever, you know, but what's there?

02:14:32.000 And so we start thinking about that a little bit.

02:14:35.000 Maybe I've seen people influenced by that.

02:14:37.000 I have.

02:14:37.000 You have too, I'm sure.

02:14:40.000 And he was never influenced by that.

02:14:44.000 It was just what he was.

02:14:47.000 He was that his whole life.

02:14:51.000 and the only thing that I could think because I try to put pieces together a little bit of what he how he got that way and All I know from people when he died, you know, patients come up to you,

02:15:06.000 they're great, they want to tell you something, you know?

02:15:09.000 And they told me, you know, that they were poor and all in the neighborhood and everything, a neighborhood called Mariner's Heart, but down by the water in Staten Island, a rough place, you know?

02:15:23.000 And...

02:15:27.000 They told me that his mother was a tough woman.

02:15:30.000 She didn't have a tough woman. 0.99

02:15:33.000 And there was three sons, you know, and they were originally from, they weren't born, they were born here, but they were from Europe, you know, and they had just, you had to be what the mother, the mother told them what they had to be.

02:15:48.000 She told each one what you're going to be.

02:15:50.000 The oldest was my father, like I was the oldest.

02:15:53.000 And Eugene, you're going to be an orthodontist.

02:15:57.000 He became an orthodontist.

02:15:59.000 Very successful.

02:16:01.000 Reynolds, you're going to be an engineer.

02:16:03.000 Boeing aircraft.

02:16:04.000 Unbelievably successful.

02:16:05.000 Lived in Seattle.

02:16:08.000 Theodore...

02:16:08.000 The oldest, her favorite.

02:16:10.000 You're not supposed to have a favorite, but it's real, right?

02:16:14.000 You have favorites.

02:16:16.000 You're going to be a doctor.

02:16:17.000 My oldest son.

02:16:19.000 You're going to be a doctor.

02:16:20.000 He wanted to be a builder.

02:16:24.000 He wanted to build.

02:16:26.000 He did both.

02:16:27.000 He built over 150 houses on Staten Island.

02:16:30.000 He built different things. 0.99

02:16:31.000 How the fuck did he do that? 0.98

02:16:32.000 He did it as he was a doctor. 0.99

02:16:34.000 How did he have the time?

02:16:36.000 Well, he had a contractor, you know, a guy that did it, but he...

02:16:39.000 He did that because that was his passion.

02:16:41.000 Well, he did, but no, no, no, she was smarter than him.

02:16:44.000 She was smarter than anyone.

02:16:45.000 He was supposed to be a doctor.

02:16:47.000 He was one of the greatest diagnostic doctors ever.

02:16:52.000 I know it's my father.

02:16:53.000 I know the whole thing.

02:16:54.000 I get it, but he really was.

02:16:56.000 You walked in, he knew what was wrong with you.

02:16:58.000 There was a great, again, we don't know, like the Babe Ruth thing, we don't know the complete truth to it, but there's a great legendary story that a guy walked in, he had been to Mayo Clinic, he had been to John Hopkins, he had been everywhere, he was dying.

02:17:10.000 That's all they knew, he was dying.

02:17:11.000 Losing weight, falling apart, dying.

02:17:14.000 And nobody could diagnose him.

02:17:16.000 He walked into this place where you had to wait five hours to see him because the line was out the door because he had all the poor people. 1.00

02:17:24.000 And there was cigarette burns in all the rugs.

02:17:27.000 And she was like, where am I? But when you got to him, you knew where you are.

02:17:33.000 And he went there.

02:17:34.000 Somebody sent him there.

02:17:35.000 He went there.

02:17:36.000 And my father made all the patients leave and he gave himself an injection.

02:17:40.000 That's the legendary story.

02:17:42.000 And I asked him about it.

02:17:44.000 And there was a name, I couldn't tell you the name, whatever.

02:17:47.000 He made it real simple.

02:17:49.000 He said, because he knew I watched movies, and we all watched movies, and we all heard things from different times.

02:17:54.000 And he said, back in those days, it would have been called leprosy.

02:17:58.000 It was some kind of cancer.

02:18:01.000 And I guess there was a contagious part to it, whatever.

02:18:04.000 And he got everyone out of the office, and he diagnosed the guy, gave himself a shot.

02:18:10.000 He gave himself a shot to inoculate himself?

02:18:15.000 I guess so.

02:18:16.000 I mean, that's the story.

02:18:17.000 Right.

02:18:19.000 And he said to me, the only definitive thing I know about that story, and there was a million of them, you know, similar, but was that I bragged to my father, you're smarter than all these other doctors.

02:18:35.000 And he said, no, I'm not.

02:18:38.000 And I said, but you found it in these other places.

02:18:41.000 Big hospital, big problem.

02:18:44.000 I'm not a big hospital.

02:18:46.000 Big hospitals, bigger problems.

02:18:49.000 I said, what do you mean?

02:18:50.000 They have to do things fast and with large numbers.

02:18:54.000 I don't.

02:18:55.000 So they have to, it has to make sense.

02:18:58.000 Some things don't make sense.

02:19:00.000 That's what he told me.

02:19:01.000 He said, so this particular thing, they're smarter than me.

02:19:05.000 They knew the characteristics of the disease.

02:19:08.000 They knew the symptoms.

02:19:09.000 They knew that it fit in here.

02:19:10.000 But that hadn't been around for 40 years in the continental United States, whatever he said to me.

02:19:16.000 But I remember it was something like that.

02:19:18.000 It hadn't been around for 40, maybe it was 60, but whatever.

02:19:21.000 It hadn't been around.

02:19:22.000 So they moved right past that because they have to go.

02:19:25.000 It's a big hospital.

02:19:26.000 They got to go quick.

02:19:28.000 He said, I don't have to.

02:19:31.000 He says, it didn't make sense to them because it wasn't around 40 years.

02:19:37.000 But he says, if it is, almost like if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, maybe it's a duck.

02:19:43.000 So he just stayed.

02:19:44.000 He could stay with that.

02:19:46.000 They couldn't stay with that.

02:19:47.000 And he stayed with it and he was right.

02:19:50.000 And, um...

02:19:52.000 He did a lot of things like that.

02:19:54.000 He was famous for that.

02:19:55.000 He was famous for people coming from Brooklyn, coming from Manhattan, coming over there to see this diagnostic genius in this little basement office with people out the block, like they were waiting for McDonald's or pizza.

02:20:13.000 And he cost less than McDonald's to a certain extent.

02:20:19.000 Because if he didn't have money, he didn't charge it, like I said.

02:20:21.000 But he made money, of course.

02:20:24.000 But he didn't make the money of the...

02:20:26.000 And he was...

02:20:27.000 I'll tell you a great story.

02:20:30.000 To have a nursing home, maybe this explains him the best.

02:20:35.000 To have a nursing home, you had to have it open on Staten Island.

02:20:38.000 I guess anywhere in New York, you had to have a doctor who was signed on as the medical director.

02:20:43.000 The problem was they couldn't pay you because the nursing homes weren't really making money. 1.00

02:20:47.000 So you just had to have a doctor who would be there.

02:20:51.000 None of them really wanted to do it.

02:20:52.000 So my father was the medical director and just bear with me.

02:20:57.000 I'm going to say of eight nursing homes.

02:20:59.000 Might have been five.

02:21:00.000 Might have been nine.

02:21:03.000 So I would go with him on house calls.

02:21:05.000 That's how I hung out with him.

02:21:07.000 So I'd go with him on nursing homes.

02:21:08.000 So of course he didn't get paid.

02:21:10.000 He was the director.

02:21:11.000 But he figured if he was that...

02:21:13.000 He never told me this.

02:21:15.000 But I think it's okay to say it.

02:21:19.000 He figured if I'm going to be there, I'm going to go see the patients.

02:21:22.000 He didn't have to.

02:21:24.000 But he went once a week.

02:21:26.000 And he went into each nursing home.

02:21:28.000 And I went with him when I was with him.

02:21:29.000 And he saw the patients.

02:21:31.000 So there's one day we go in and he's like...

02:21:35.000 He gets treated like royalty.

02:21:37.000 I mean, he comes in, the staff comes running out.

02:21:39.000 From all the nurse days, they all come on.

02:21:42.000 You know, and it made me feel good.

02:21:44.000 I was like, wow, I'm with the man.

02:21:48.000 So I'm following him around.

02:21:50.000 We're going down the hallway, and he's very humble.

02:21:52.000 He really, truly is.

02:21:53.000 That word is overused.

02:21:54.000 But this guy was beyond humble.

02:21:57.000 Like the director thing would go this way, the needle. 0.99

02:22:00.000 It was ridiculous. 0.95

02:22:01.000 He'd get mad if you said something good about him.

02:22:06.000 So, they all come and he's like, hey, do you have the charts?

02:22:10.000 Yeah, come on. 0.77

02:22:11.000 So he's looking at the charts.

02:22:13.000 Change this medicine, give him 100 milligrams.

02:22:15.000 You know, the typical stuff that I know from watching Dr. Kildare or something, right?

02:22:19.000 Right.

02:22:22.000 So, he's looking, you know, and he's doing his thing and he's going, I'm following him around.

02:22:29.000 I don't know how old I was, but young.

02:22:31.000 Ten.

02:22:35.000 11, I don't know.

02:22:37.000 So I found all of a sudden this woman, you ever see, I don't know, I jump around with these things, but you ever see the movie, it was that comedy guy that was around back then and he did like Bride of Frankenstein and he did- Mel Brooks?

02:22:52.000 Yeah, it was one of his movies and the Bride of Frankenstein, the white hair was all like, well this woman was the Bride of Frankenstein. 0.90

02:23:00.000 She comes running out, and she was just shelved, and she was like half nude, and her gown was falling off, and she's an older lady, and her white hair was like that.

02:23:11.000 And she comes running, and she's yelling, incoherent, and screaming, and they jump her.

02:23:16.000 And they jump on, they start putting straps around her, I guess, like the old white coat, I guess.

02:23:22.000 And apparently she was tied up to a bed. 1.00

02:23:26.000 You know, obviously back in those days they didn't know how to deal with senile people the way...

02:23:31.000 You know, it was a whole different thing.

02:23:32.000 I mean, we're talking a lot of years ago.

02:23:34.000 And so they had her tied up and she got loose.

02:23:37.000 And her gown was falling off.

02:23:40.000 And so they jump upon her.

02:23:43.000 And they're tying her off.

02:23:44.000 And I'm watching this woman get mugged in the nursing home that my father's the medical director of.

02:23:52.000 And all of a sudden he said, leave it alone.

02:23:55.000 And he's still looking at his charts.

02:23:57.000 He's not like, hey, oh...

02:24:00.000 Leave her alone. 1.00

02:24:02.000 It's okay.

02:24:03.000 She's fine.

02:24:04.000 She'll be alright.

02:24:06.000 And she calmed down.

02:24:08.000 She was a little, you know, nuts. 1.00

02:24:12.000 But... 0.99

02:24:12.000 She was nuts, right? 0.99

02:24:15.000 That's okay to say. 0.99

02:24:17.000 It's realistic.

02:24:18.000 And...

02:24:19.000 She comes over to my father.

02:24:22.000 She says, hey.

02:24:24.000 And he's right.

02:24:26.000 And he starts walking.

02:24:28.000 She starts following him.

02:24:31.000 I'm a kid, so I can't figure it all out the way I could later, right?

02:24:35.000 But she becomes his assistant, basically.

02:24:38.000 She's following him around, and he's going room to room.

02:24:44.000 I think he gave her, if I remember correctly, he gave her the thing that you write on, the billboard, you know, the thing.

02:24:53.000 Clipboard.

02:24:54.000 Yeah, clipboard.

02:24:55.000 To hold.

02:24:55.000 So she's holding the clipboard, and...

02:24:58.000 And she's looking like she's making believe she's reading stuff.

02:25:01.000 And I'm looking at this scene.

02:25:05.000 But I'm a kid.

02:25:06.000 I haven't seen all the movies yet that I can compare it.

02:25:09.000 This is out there.

02:25:11.000 You know what I mean?

02:25:12.000 This is freaking nuts.

02:25:14.000 And she's following around. 0.69

02:25:16.000 She's looking at the thing.

02:25:17.000 And I think she's saying, yeah, yeah.

02:25:20.000 And he's going.

02:25:21.000 And he's basically not even paying attention.

02:25:25.000 He's just...

02:25:26.000 Every once in a while he said, let me have to...

02:25:28.000 And he's doing...

02:25:28.000 And all of a sudden...

02:25:30.000 And this is the part, again, just like the other thing.

02:25:33.000 I think about leaving it out.

02:25:35.000 But if I leave it out, it's not the story.

02:25:37.000 It's not the story.

02:25:39.000 Because if I left it like that, it's a beautiful story.

02:25:42.000 But this is a beautiful story in its own way.

02:25:46.000 Because it is what it is.

02:25:48.000 It's real.

02:25:49.000 He's in front of her.

02:25:51.000 And my mother was, I described her, she was this gorgeous, beautiful woman that liked good things. 0.99

02:25:57.000 My father could give a crap. 0.99

02:26:00.000 My father had ink stains exploding in his white shirt pockets. 1.00

02:26:05.000 My mother would go crazy. 0.96

02:26:07.000 He went to Kmart.

02:26:08.000 I don't know if you remember Kmart.

02:26:10.000 He went to Kmart and bought his old shoes for $4.99 each.

02:26:14.000 Maybe $3.99.

02:26:15.000 Plastic shoes.

02:26:17.000 And my mother was buying him leather shoes.

02:26:19.000 He never wore them.

02:26:20.000 If he knew what she paid for them, he would have went nuts.

02:26:24.000 Waste.

02:26:25.000 Waste.

02:26:26.000 Waste.

02:26:26.000 For what?

02:26:27.000 That was him.

02:26:29.000 So he's got these plastic shoes and you know he's got the inks blow up in his pockets and everything else and my mother would always get upset, always mad.

02:26:40.000 Why do you wear those shoes?

02:26:42.000 So he's walking in front of her and all of a sudden everything changes.

02:26:50.000 The woman goes, he's not a doctor! 0.95

02:26:56.000 She flipped on him.

02:26:58.000 Can you imagine this?

02:27:00.000 After being so great to her?

02:27:02.000 He's not a...

02:27:03.000 Barely gets his attention.

02:27:05.000 Still walking.

02:27:07.000 He's not a doctor, everybody!

02:27:09.000 He's got holes in his shoes!

02:27:11.000 I look down.

02:27:13.000 His foot goes up.

02:27:14.000 He's got a hole in his shoe.

02:27:14.000 His sock's sticking out of the shoe.

02:27:17.000 She was right. 0.99

02:27:18.000 He's got a hole in his freaking shoe. 0.99

02:27:20.000 And his plastic shoe. 1.00

02:27:22.000 He doesn't care.

02:27:25.000 He can't be a doctor.

02:27:26.000 He's got holes in his shoes.

02:27:29.000 Now he turns around.

02:27:32.000 He looks at her.

02:27:34.000 I'll never forget this.

02:27:35.000 He pats her on the head. 0.50

02:27:37.000 Says, you're not so crazy. 0.99

02:27:42.000 Pats her on the head. 0.99

02:27:43.000 Just like this.

02:27:44.000 And not in a demeaning way like you might think.

02:27:47.000 You know what I mean? 0.94

02:27:48.000 Really, he touched her on the head and said, you're not so crazy.

02:27:53.000 Turned around, took the billboard and kept walking.

02:27:56.000 She didn't say another word.

02:28:06.000 My mother was freaking embarrassed and mad because I told the story when I got home. 0.99

02:28:12.000 And, of course, he would never tell it.

02:28:14.000 And I said, you know, Dad, you know, I said it like a kid would say it.

02:28:18.000 You know, this lady said, you know, he's got holes in it. 0.90

02:28:20.000 Oh, my God!

02:28:22.000 You know, Jesus!

02:28:24.000 You know.

02:28:24.000 Right.

02:28:25.000 Didn't mean anything.

02:28:27.000 Well, that makes just this, your description, your understanding, Of your father.

02:28:35.000 It just makes so much sense now. 0.98

02:28:37.000 So much sense of who you are, why your principles are so rigid, why you're intolerant of any bullshit. 0.98

02:28:45.000 It just makes so much sense.

02:28:48.000 As a fight trainer, and as a guy who understands fighters, as a commentator, it makes so much sense that you have this just unyielding need for 100% commitment.

02:29:03.000 Yeah, I mean...

02:29:05.000 Just don't...

02:29:07.000 Listen, it doesn't make me a better person or anything.

02:29:11.000 But I don't have tolerance.

02:29:13.000 I don't have tolerance for the BS. Right.

02:29:17.000 Because I know it to be BS. Right.

02:29:20.000 You know, I say to...

02:29:22.000 We were running these gyms for the last nine years.

02:29:27.000 22 years.

02:29:28.000 Listen, when he died, I started the Dr. Atlas Foundation.

02:29:33.000 Again, there was no statue, okay?

02:29:35.000 So I went to a Supreme Court judge who was a friend on Staten Island because I used to be in front of the judges when I was young in a bad way because I got myself in a little trouble. 1.00

02:29:50.000 Stupid. 1.00

02:29:51.000 But I got to the right place. 1.00

02:29:52.000 That's what counts.

02:29:55.000 But I always got a kick out of it that I could hang out with the judge and I didn't have to be in the court to do it.

02:30:02.000 And I didn't have to be standing in front of him.

02:30:04.000 I could be on the side of him.

02:30:09.000 So...

02:30:12.000 I got a few people together and I started the Dr. Atlas Foundation 22 years ago.

02:30:18.000 And we've grown, you know, quite a bit.

02:30:22.000 But just a little grassroots thing, but it's grown.

02:30:26.000 We probably give away, in real help, we have one paid person and one office that's $1,400 a month.

02:30:35.000 That's it.

02:30:36.000 So no administrative costs other than those.

02:30:40.000 And that's it.

02:30:42.000 Nobody gets salaries, just that one person.

02:30:45.000 And all the money goes to the cases.

02:30:49.000 And we probably give away...

02:30:57.000 $600,000, $700,000 a year.

02:31:00.000 But direct help.

02:31:02.000 We don't give to the, you know, we don't give to March of Dimes.

02:31:06.000 We don't give it to them.

02:31:08.000 We don't give it to, you know, American Red Cross.

02:31:11.000 We give it directly.

02:31:13.000 They come to us now because we're out there to an extent where people all know.

02:31:18.000 But they come to us.

02:31:20.000 They have a kid with cerebral palsy.

02:31:22.000 Needs a certain bike.

02:31:23.000 The bike costs $1,500.

02:31:25.000 Bang.

02:31:25.000 Boom.

02:31:25.000 Got the bike.

02:31:26.000 We've got another machine that circulates the blood in his legs.

02:31:30.000 It costs 25 pounds.

02:31:31.000 Bang! 1.00

02:31:32.000 You got it.

02:31:33.000 Obviously, we make sure it's legitimate.

02:31:36.000 We research it.

02:31:37.000 We do that.

02:31:38.000 We have a board.

02:31:39.000 We make sure it's real.

02:31:40.000 We do make sure it really is real because you do get people to take advantage a little bit.

02:31:46.000 And we do it.

02:31:48.000 We act on it.

02:31:49.000 Because my father never made people feel less when they were poor or when they needed something.

02:31:54.000 That was the greatest thing he did.

02:31:56.000 He never made them lose more than they lost already.

02:31:58.000 Their integrity.

02:31:59.000 Never, never, never.

02:32:01.000 He never made them feel...

02:32:02.000 I remember one time, it was Christmas Eve.

02:32:05.000 Where was I hanging out?

02:32:06.000 I was a kid.

02:32:07.000 I was at my father's office because I wanted to be with him.

02:32:10.000 And it was Christmas Eve and it was late.

02:32:12.000 And we were still in the office.

02:32:13.000 And a woman, I remember, she was a Spanish woman. 0.88

02:32:16.000 She came in, she had six kids, and she was nervous.

02:32:20.000 And I remember watching how nervous she was.

02:32:22.000 I was like, even though I was young, I was like, she's really nervous.

02:32:26.000 And I found out, I learned about human behavior.

02:32:28.000 I learned about what it was.

02:32:30.000 And I'm watching her, and sure enough, she was getting ready.

02:32:34.000 When the last kid got taken care of, she was going to dart out of there.

02:32:37.000 She didn't have money. 0.99

02:32:38.000 And the poor woman, she had to take care of her kids. 1.00

02:32:43.000 She didn't want to do that, but she was going to run out of there because she did not have money. 0.99

02:32:48.000 And he recognized me thinking, I didn't know what it was, so I'm not going to say I thought I was smart, but I recognized something.

02:32:55.000 All this motion, all this nervousness, it wasn't normal.

02:32:59.000 He recognized it all.

02:33:01.000 And before he got to the last kid, so he wouldn't embarrass her, so she wouldn't run out of there and do that to herself and lose something more than she lost already, he said, this one's on me.

02:33:16.000 And the nervousness went away.

02:33:18.000 She said, there's no charge today.

02:33:19.000 He said, there's no charge today.

02:33:22.000 And I don't know if she spoke English, but she understood it.

02:33:26.000 And he made her understand it.

02:33:28.000 And there was no charge today.

02:33:30.000 And as soon as he said that, everything changed.

02:33:33.000 Everything changed.

02:33:34.000 She wasn't nervous.

02:33:35.000 She wasn't looking at doors.

02:33:38.000 And she cried.

02:33:43.000 And she left.

02:33:45.000 And when she left, the place was packed, because that was his office.

02:33:50.000 And all of a sudden, he talked to himself a little bit, just for a second.

02:33:55.000 I mean, he didn't do this on regular, you know.

02:33:57.000 But he just, like, said, you know, wasn't like that.

02:34:01.000 You know, I wasn't thinking.

02:34:04.000 Of course he wasn't thinking.

02:34:05.000 He didn't know it was Christmas Eve.

02:34:06.000 Right.

02:34:07.000 So he turns to me, and he gives me a mission, a job.

02:34:11.000 He opens it, takes out his, and he gives me a $15 bill.

02:34:15.000 He says, go find it.

02:34:16.000 She's probably on a bus stop.

02:34:18.000 I ran out that door like I was given the greatest mission in the world.

02:34:24.000 I felt so proud.

02:34:27.000 I ran.

02:34:28.000 I knew where the bus stop was.

02:34:30.000 I was going to run all of them.

02:34:32.000 But she was at the first one, down on Bay Street.

02:34:36.000 Right around the corner, down a block, two blocks.

02:34:40.000 And she's there.

02:34:42.000 And sure enough, there she is on the bus stop.

02:34:44.000 I went up to her and said, the doctor said, give you this.

02:34:49.000 You know, she looked at it.

02:34:52.000 You know, she was shocked.

02:34:56.000 But she started crying again.

02:34:59.000 But I felt so good.

02:35:02.000 Because I felt like I was part of it.

02:35:04.000 You know?

02:35:05.000 And so I started this foundation.

02:35:08.000 And I said, you know, I needed help.

02:35:10.000 I said, look...

02:35:12.000 We're going to do what he did.

02:35:14.000 No red tape.

02:35:15.000 No losing your pride.

02:35:18.000 People that fall through the cracks.

02:35:19.000 That's my father.

02:35:20.000 He had a PhD in that.

02:35:23.000 All the people that fell through the cracks, he took care of them all.

02:35:26.000 I said, we're going to take care of them.

02:35:28.000 The ones, you know, muscular dystrophy.

02:35:30.000 Great organization, but do people out there know?

02:35:32.000 Not in a bad way, but did you know like 80-something percent goes to administrative costs and like 4% goes to research?

02:35:39.000 These people don't need research in their life.

02:35:41.000 They've told me that.

02:35:41.000 I know it.

02:35:42.000 I recognize it.

02:35:43.000 You know what they need?

02:35:44.000 They need a wheelchair.

02:35:45.000 You know what they need?

02:35:46.000 A handicap ramp.

02:35:47.000 You know what they need?

02:35:48.000 Their cancer medication paid for.

02:35:49.000 You know what they need?

02:35:50.000 The utilities to be kept on when they're being shut off because they can't afford.

02:35:54.000 You know what they need?

02:35:55.000 They need the back rent paid because someone got sick and one of the people working there had to quit the job and they were going to be put into a shelter with six kids.

02:36:04.000 So we pay the back rent.

02:36:05.000 We pay the utility costs.

02:36:07.000 We pay the cancer medication.

02:36:08.000 We put the wheelchair ramp up.

02:36:11.000 And we do those.

02:36:12.000 That's what we do.

02:36:13.000 And research ain't part of their life.

02:36:16.000 It's great.

02:36:17.000 Let's hope it comes.

02:36:18.000 So we could close all these places down.

02:36:20.000 And I'll close mine down first.

02:36:23.000 But right now they don't need research.

02:36:26.000 They need that.

02:36:28.000 They need help for their way of life now.

02:36:31.000 For the quality of life for that kid now.

02:36:35.000 So that's what we do.

02:36:36.000 How could someone donate to this if they want to?

02:36:38.000 It's the Dr. Atlas, I'm real bad on website stuff, I'm like a caveman, but it's the Dr. Atlas Foundation, www.DrAtlasFoundation.com.

02:36:51.000 Yeah, and 718-980, I'm sorry if it's okay, 718-980-7037, one person.

02:36:59.000 There it is, right there.

02:37:00.000 Yeah, there it is.

02:37:01.000 That's it.

02:37:02.000 There it is.

02:37:03.000 All right, we got it up there.

02:37:04.000 One more time with the phone number?

02:37:06.000 Yeah, 718-980-7037, 718-980-7037.

02:37:13.000 So, DrAtlasFoundation.com.

02:37:16.000 Yes, there it is.

02:37:17.000 You can go there and donate.

02:37:19.000 I'm sold.

02:37:20.000 Thank you.

02:37:21.000 This is a beautiful conversation, man, and not just about boxing.

02:37:25.000 And I think...

02:37:29.000 This, like I said, it speaks so much to who you are and why you who you are. 0.99

02:37:34.000 And why you won't tolerate any bullshit. 0.93

02:37:36.000 Yeah, it's like when you're seeing a guy like that, it's kind of like it don't make sense. 0.95

02:37:42.000 Are you still working with fighters?

02:37:44.000 You know, it's funny.

02:37:46.000 No was the word until a few minutes ago.

02:37:48.000 Until a few minutes ago?

02:37:49.000 Well, I'm saying a few minutes, but until a week ago, maybe less, maybe five days ago, I've decided to train a fighter.

02:37:57.000 He's going to fight for the world light heavyweight title December 1st against the second hardest puncher in boxing, unfortunately, which he wasn't.

02:38:05.000 And it's going to be, I think it's on Showtime, I think.

02:38:09.000 I don't even know because I didn't even find those details out.

02:38:11.000 When they asked me to train him, first I was saying no.

02:38:14.000 And then my kids said, Dad, at least give it a chance.

02:38:19.000 So I flew out to where he is in Oxnard, California to meet him.

02:38:24.000 His name is Oleksandr.

02:38:26.000 He's a Ukrainian.

02:38:28.000 Oleksandr Vozik.

02:38:30.000 I learned that you don't pronounce the G. It's Wozik, but it starts with a G. He's 15 and 0, 12 knockout.

02:38:36.000 He's fighting the second hardest puncher in boxing, Adonis Stevenson in Montreal.

02:38:43.000 It's a tough fight.

02:38:45.000 They asked me if I would train him at first.

02:38:47.000 Like I said, I was saying no.

02:38:48.000 Who do you think is the hardest puncher in boxing?

02:38:50.000 Wilder.

02:38:51.000 Wilder.

02:38:52.000 The old times would say, he hit you on top of the head and fractured your ankles.

02:38:58.000 That's hard.

02:39:01.000 Donna Stevenson is a hell of a puncher. 1.00

02:39:03.000 He's the second hardest puncher in boxing, left hand, softball on top of it.

02:39:07.000 And when I flew out Toxin, I said, I'm either going to say no, which my kids asked me not to, so I said, then I've got to fly out and I've got to meet them.

02:39:17.000 And when we had lunch, him and the manager took, you know, anyway, and I'm sitting with them.

02:39:22.000 I don't know what they are for sure.

02:39:24.000 You know, the manager I knew for a while in the business, but for sure, you don't know until you know.

02:39:29.000 And I wanted to try to find out.

02:39:31.000 So their thinking was like, you know, you're here to find out things probably tomorrow in the gym.

02:39:37.000 And plus we watch tape.

02:39:39.000 So those are the things.

02:39:40.000 So I said to them right now, I said, well, I'm here to see one thing first.

02:39:47.000 If you're a decent person.

02:39:49.000 And they were like, that sounds maybe different.

02:39:55.000 But I said, I just want to know if you're a decent person because I don't want to be around bad people.

02:39:59.000 I just want to be around, and there's bad people out there.

02:40:03.000 It's the way it is.

02:40:04.000 But I don't want to be around bad people.

02:40:07.000 I never did, but now I definitely don't.

02:40:11.000 If I'm going to spend two months, it's not easy, in camp.

02:40:15.000 I want to be around someone I feel good about being around.

02:40:18.000 And so that's the first thing.

02:40:21.000 The second thing is, do I think I can help him?

02:40:23.000 That was the second thing.

02:40:26.000 And can he be helped?

02:40:28.000 So when you go to talk to someone like that, do you watch him move?

02:40:31.000 I've met his family.

02:40:33.000 First thing I did, I wound up meeting his family.

02:40:35.000 He's got three young kids.

02:40:36.000 And he's a husband, of course, and I see a decent person.

02:40:42.000 And then I watch film.

02:40:44.000 And I see a guy that has ideas that need to be added to.

02:40:50.000 I think that's the best way to say it.

02:40:52.000 That's got good ideas, technically, but they need to be advanced.

02:40:57.000 They need to be added to.

02:40:58.000 Polished.

02:40:59.000 Polished.

02:40:59.000 Added to, yes.

02:41:00.000 Yeah.

02:41:01.000 And taken down the road a little bit.

02:41:02.000 Right.

02:41:03.000 And I see a guy who behaves like a fighter.

02:41:07.000 That's where it starts for me, besides being a decent person.

02:41:10.000 He behaves like a fighter.

02:41:12.000 He got hurt.

02:41:12.000 He got dropped in a fight.

02:41:14.000 He behaved like a fighter.

02:41:15.000 You have to behave like a fighter.

02:41:17.000 To be a fighter, you have to be a fighter.

02:41:19.000 Right.

02:41:20.000 And you would know that better than most.

02:41:23.000 So he...

02:41:27.000 And there's one problem.

02:41:29.000 Every fight he gets hit at least once really clean.

02:41:32.000 You can't do that with this guy.

02:41:34.000 Right.

02:41:34.000 He gets hit more than once, but he gets hit clean.

02:41:37.000 You know, one time I said to a fighter when I was trying to, Bradley actually was, I said, are you religious?

02:41:44.000 Yeah, I am in my own way.

02:41:46.000 I said, listen, I'm not into that.

02:41:48.000 I'm just using it as an example.

02:41:50.000 My way of saying it.

02:41:51.000 I said, I was brought up a Catholic.

02:41:52.000 I forget half of the things they told me.

02:41:54.000 But I remember about, they used to teach you, I'm probably pronouncing it wrong.

02:42:00.000 I'm going to need your help again.

02:42:02.000 But venial sins and mortal sins.

02:42:05.000 The venial are the little ones you can live with.

02:42:07.000 You don't go and see the guy that's red.

02:42:09.000 The mortal ones, you got a problem.

02:42:12.000 I said, the way you box, you're making mortal sins. 0.78

02:42:17.000 The vino sins don't mean crap, but you're making mortal ones.

02:42:21.000 You're getting hit clean, unblocked, clean, solid punches that sometimes you don't even see. 0.58

02:42:28.000 Like the Provodnikov fight.

02:42:29.000 Yes, yes, yes.

02:42:31.000 So I said, that's got to be corrected.

02:42:33.000 Right.

02:42:34.000 So we corrected it.

02:42:35.000 How do you correct something like that?

02:42:37.000 You know what it is.

02:42:38.000 Right.

02:42:38.000 You have to know what it is.

02:42:39.000 You have to see why he's getting hit.

02:42:41.000 But you gotta change the way he moves.

02:42:42.000 And you gotta change the technique.

02:42:44.000 Yeah.

02:42:46.000 Everything.

02:42:46.000 There's rules.

02:42:48.000 It's life.

02:42:49.000 It's rules.

02:42:49.000 When you work with a guy like that and you only have two months, how much change can you affect in two months?

02:42:53.000 Well, I worked with Bradley for the Rios fight and he couldn't stand in front of the guy and he went out and he moved around the guy.

02:43:00.000 We were fortunate.

02:43:02.000 We did okay.

02:43:03.000 We made some change.

02:43:05.000 But, I mean, things like, I'll give you an example.

02:43:08.000 Rules, rules, rules.

02:43:09.000 Simple things like, where do you throw a punch from?

02:43:12.000 I just, yeah.

02:43:14.000 I throw a punch.

02:43:14.000 No!

02:43:15.000 Don't throw a jab from there because if you're too close, he can time you with right hand.

02:43:19.000 Everyone heard jab is the beginning of things.

02:43:21.000 Jab is the, you know, it leads to good things.

02:43:24.000 It's a great punch.

02:43:25.000 Yeah, it is.

02:43:26.000 It's a terrible punch.

02:43:27.000 It's a horrible punch if you throw it the wrong distance.

02:43:31.000 You throw it from a little too close, bang!

02:43:32.000 You get hit with right hand.

02:43:34.000 Know where you throw punches from.

02:43:37.000 Left hook. 0.75

02:43:37.000 He threw a left hook. 0.75

02:43:38.000 He got hit with a right hand.

02:43:39.000 All he knew was he got hit.

02:43:42.000 But he didn't know why.

02:43:43.000 You threw the left hook in front.

02:43:45.000 Right hand is there.

02:43:46.000 Boom! 0.99

02:43:47.000 Get on the side.

02:43:49.000 Throw punches from certain positions.

02:43:51.000 Not allowed to throw punches unless they're from the right position.

02:43:57.000 Now, you have to, Cuss would tell me, you have to go over and over and over and over again till they can't do it wrong if they wanted to.

02:44:10.000 It's got to become a habit.

02:44:12.000 But you're not thinking about it.

02:44:13.000 Well, it's a habit.

02:44:14.000 And that takes a lot of work and that takes understanding what it is.

02:44:17.000 And it takes a lot of work.

02:44:18.000 You gotta be on him every time.

02:44:19.000 And it takes a guy that can put his ego in the pocket.

02:44:23.000 That's why you wanna know, do I have a good guy here?

02:44:25.000 Do I have a decent guy?

02:44:26.000 Because you're telling a guy who's already made it to a certain level without you.

02:44:30.000 He has.

02:44:32.000 And now you're telling him there's things that he don't know.

02:44:36.000 So he's gotta be willing to be able to accept that.

02:44:40.000 And, um...

02:44:42.000 One of the things, I like people that aren't selfish.

02:44:45.000 And look, we're all selfish to a certain degree.

02:44:47.000 But again, it's degrees.

02:44:48.000 How tough are you?

02:44:49.000 Degrees.

02:44:50.000 All fighters are tough.

02:44:51.000 Degrees.

02:44:52.000 How selfish are you?

02:44:54.000 Degrees. 0.94

02:44:55.000 Right.

02:44:59.000 The whole understanding was I would go to Oxnard for eight weeks, you know, to train him.

02:45:04.000 But maybe I don't want to go to Oxnard.

02:45:06.000 But I'll go wherever I think it gives the fighter the best chance to win.

02:45:11.000 The weather, the time zone.

02:45:14.000 But the main thing why I'll go there, he's got three young kids.

02:45:19.000 I'm not in a Rocky movie.

02:45:22.000 I don't want to take them away from those kids for those eight weeks.

02:45:26.000 That's not good.

02:45:28.000 So I took two weeks to decide.

02:45:31.000 He kept calling the manager up.

02:45:33.000 He's a good kid.

02:45:36.000 He is.

02:45:37.000 And he kept calling the manager up and saying, did you hear yet?

02:45:40.000 And, of course, he hadn't.

02:45:42.000 So he's thinking like a good person.

02:45:45.000 I shouldn't say a good person.

02:45:46.000 He's thinking like a person that wants to get what he wants to get.

02:45:49.000 But at the same time, here's where the good part comes in, or the selfless part.

02:45:54.000 He says...

02:45:56.000 If I have to go to New York, I'll go to New York.

02:45:59.000 A lot of fighters don't do that.

02:46:01.000 They want help, but they want it on their terms.

02:46:03.000 He said, if I have to go to New York, I'll go to New York.

02:46:06.000 If I have to go to Montreal, I'll go to Montreal.

02:46:08.000 Please tell them that.

02:46:09.000 That spoke to me.

02:46:12.000 That I had this kid that's selfless to that extent.

02:46:16.000 Who was training him before?

02:46:18.000 I don't know the name, but it was a...

02:46:20.000 You know, decent guy.

02:46:23.000 He's 15 and all.

02:46:24.000 But he felt like when, you know, when he got dropped in a fight and he went back to the gym, immediately that should be dealt with, you know.

02:46:35.000 But it was back to just basic training again rather than that specific, you know.

02:46:40.000 Doesn't mean that the guy's not good.

02:46:42.000 Doesn't mean it's just that he...

02:46:45.000 Everyone deals with things differently.

02:46:47.000 That's all.

02:46:47.000 I mean, it doesn't make me this or that, but I just can do it the way I do it.

02:46:52.000 And I do it.

02:46:53.000 I look at film.

02:46:53.000 When I went to see him, I had a couple pages written out already on things I saw on film that he does wrong, that he would have to correct.

02:47:01.000 And the one thing that he has to correct for this fight would be good if you don't get hit.

02:47:06.000 I mean, that'd be a damn good thing.

02:47:08.000 But the one really thing is you can't keep coming back in front of the guy at a certain distance and giving him a shot at you when he can punch like that. 0.77

02:47:16.000 And that's one thing.

02:47:17.000 He always winds up...

02:47:20.000 Localized.

02:47:21.000 Right back in front of the guy.

02:47:23.000 And there's got to be other options.

02:47:25.000 Other places to go.

02:47:27.000 Right.

02:47:28.000 You know, I joke around.

02:47:30.000 I use different, you know, different examples or different analogies.

02:47:34.000 I say, listen, whether you had a mother, a grandmother, an aunt, somebody when you were growing up told you don't hang out on the corner.

02:47:44.000 Right.

02:47:44.000 Right?

02:47:45.000 Yeah.

02:47:45.000 Why?

02:47:46.000 Because nothing good can happen.

02:47:47.000 Right.

02:47:48.000 Well, don't hang out in front of the guy.

02:47:50.000 Right.

02:47:50.000 Nothing good can happen.

02:47:52.000 Nothing good can happen.

02:47:52.000 So we go from there.

02:47:54.000 You know, it's a lot more to it.

02:47:54.000 He speaks English well?

02:47:55.000 Yeah, he does.

02:47:56.000 He's a smart guy.

02:47:57.000 He's got a beautiful family.

02:47:58.000 And like I said, it's...

02:48:00.000 So when do you start?

02:48:01.000 Because December 1st is the fight.

02:48:04.000 I have to make a decision.

02:48:07.000 It's either going to be an eight or seven week camp.

02:48:10.000 I'm trying to feel, I'm trying to find out by asking him questions how quickly his body gets in shape because I know it sounds funny to the average guy out there but if it's a week too long it could be bad.

02:48:22.000 You can overtrain.

02:48:23.000 You know?

02:48:23.000 Yeah.

02:48:24.000 So, and he's overtrained in his career.

02:48:26.000 Yeah.

02:48:26.000 So, I want to try to try, it's not an exact science, to have a feel for it should be eight or seven weeks.

02:48:33.000 Do you monitor their heart rate, their resting heart rate?

02:48:36.000 Yeah, well, I have, so we have that stuff that we do that.

02:48:39.000 Right.

02:48:40.000 To see if they're overtrained when they wake up in the morning.

02:48:42.000 Yes, but you know what I depend on?

02:48:44.000 I'm not going to stay and BS you.

02:48:47.000 I depend on my eye.

02:48:49.000 Right.

02:48:49.000 More than anything.

02:48:50.000 You see them slowing down.

02:48:52.000 You see him struggling.

02:48:53.000 And the trick is to not get there.

02:48:54.000 Right.

02:48:55.000 To try not to get there.

02:48:56.000 Right.

02:48:56.000 And when you see it, what do you do?

02:48:57.000 You tell him to take a few days off?

02:48:59.000 Yeah, but I try to see it before I see it.

02:49:01.000 What I mean is, if he had a hard day of training, I will just automatically give him a light day or maybe off the next day.

02:49:09.000 Right.

02:49:09.000 And like a lot of people won't because they're afraid.

02:49:11.000 Right.

02:49:11.000 You gotta work.

02:49:12.000 You gotta work.

02:49:13.000 Right.

02:49:13.000 But I learned not to be afraid of that.

02:49:16.000 Right.

02:49:16.000 So if I see he had a real...

02:49:18.000 And he looked great!

02:49:20.000 You know what?

02:49:20.000 Take off tomorrow.

02:49:21.000 Are you sure?

02:49:23.000 Take off tomorrow.

02:49:23.000 So we don't get there.

02:49:25.000 Right.

02:49:25.000 To try to, kind of like my father, like preventive medicine.

02:49:30.000 This is a new way of thinking, though, and such a smart way of thinking, because for the longest time, everybody just wanted to be tough.

02:49:35.000 Yeah.

02:49:36.000 They just wanted to work harder, but you got to work smarter.

02:49:38.000 Yeah, you do.

02:49:39.000 Less is more, you know, that's saying, but sometimes.

02:49:42.000 But it really is sometimes.

02:49:43.000 Yeah, sometimes. 0.98

02:49:43.000 But sometimes not, because some people are fucking lazy and they're looking for that easy way out. 0.98

02:49:47.000 You have to gauge that. 0.99

02:49:48.000 You have to see it.

02:49:49.000 You have to know it.

02:49:50.000 You know what I mean?

02:49:51.000 And sometimes the real discipline-driven guys are their own worst enemy in that regard.

02:49:55.000 They just push too far.

02:49:56.000 Yes.

02:49:57.000 And this kid has been, again, I'm not here to say what was, but the kid has been in that place.

02:50:01.000 Right.

02:50:02.000 And that's why they're coming to me.

02:50:03.000 And again, I'm no better than anyone, but I will understand that.

02:50:09.000 So when you're saying seven weeks or eight weeks, so either one, when you decide.

02:50:13.000 So it's either going to be, so my first day, it's going to be a Monday, so the first day in camp in Oxnard will either be October 8th or October 15th.

02:50:23.000 October 8th would represent eight weeks, October 15th seven weeks.

02:50:26.000 And that would mean I would fly in on a Saturday, get myself settled, Sunday watch tape with him, and then start Monday with a structured schedule.

02:50:40.000 I think?

02:50:59.000 So, Gleason's was in Manhattan.

02:51:00.000 It's in Brooklyn now, but it was in Manhattan.

02:51:02.000 It was the place, you know?

02:51:03.000 And it was two blocks from Madison Square Garden.

02:51:05.000 It was kind of cool, you know?

02:51:06.000 So, I'm training fire.

02:51:09.000 And I remember, I was the first guy there, not bragging or not, but I mean, I would make my guys drink water.

02:51:17.000 And the old-time guys there, not because they knew it from scientific evidence, other than it was passed down to them.

02:51:24.000 It was taboo.

02:51:25.000 It was just passed down to them.

02:51:27.000 Don't drink water.

02:51:28.000 It makes you weak.

02:51:30.000 You know, you gotta be tough.

02:51:31.000 Don't drink water.

02:51:31.000 So, I was making my guys not only drink water, drink a half a gallon.

02:51:35.000 I mean, drink a lot of water.

02:51:36.000 So, I remember some of the old times, they'd be like talking about me. 0.99

02:51:40.000 They'd be like, what the fuck's this guy doing? 0.99

02:51:43.000 Don't drink water. 0.99

02:51:44.000 Don't follow what he's doing.

02:51:46.000 Because some of the fighters would say, can I drink some water?

02:51:48.000 Get a little of that water.

02:51:50.000 And no, it'll give you cramps.

02:51:52.000 You can't drink.

02:51:53.000 No, it don't give you cramps.

02:51:55.000 If you drink a large amount, very cold.

02:51:57.000 Yeah, you could get.

02:51:58.000 But no, it rehydrates you.

02:52:01.000 It allows you to stay strong.

02:52:03.000 Try to drive a car across the desert with no water in the radiator.

02:52:06.000 You might have a problem.

02:52:08.000 You might.

02:52:10.000 But I'm telling you, and I'm not...

02:52:12.000 No, but I'm saying at that place, the thing was nobody drank water.

02:52:18.000 Spit it out!

02:52:19.000 And I was making my guys drink, right in front of people.

02:52:22.000 How did you know, though?

02:52:23.000 What was the difference?

02:52:28.000 I knew by learning.

02:52:29.000 I knew my father.

02:52:31.000 My father talked about the importance of water.

02:52:37.000 He was proud I was training.

02:52:39.000 He thought I was going to be a lawyer.

02:52:41.000 I went a little different.

02:52:44.000 He was proud.

02:52:46.000 So he would talk to me like I just got it through osmosis, if that makes sense.

02:52:51.000 I knew.

02:52:52.000 He knew the water was healthy for you.

02:52:54.000 I knew it was important that you had to rehydrate yourself.

02:52:58.000 My father had a thing with water, too.

02:53:00.000 My father got involved in my training in different ways.

02:53:04.000 Like if my fighter was feeling a little weak or he had a cut and he was healing from the cut, my father would say, Set him down the ocean.

02:53:12.000 What?

02:53:14.000 Dad, we're not taking a vacation.

02:53:15.000 Put him in the ocean! 0.99

02:53:18.000 I said, alright, okay.

02:53:20.000 Let him go in the ocean.

02:53:22.000 Let him soak his scar, whatever, you know, his car.

02:53:25.000 Let him soak it in the ocean.

02:53:27.000 And don't go to Colby Island, though.

02:53:29.000 That might not be good.

02:53:32.000 But that water might not heal you.

02:53:35.000 It might change you.

02:53:36.000 It might be green when you come out.

02:53:40.000 You got something going on with the Hulk.

02:53:44.000 He would tell me in a serious way.

02:53:45.000 He said, send your fighter if he needs to be revitalized a little, send him to the ocean.

02:53:54.000 Let him swim in the ocean.

02:53:55.000 Let him be in the sun.

02:53:56.000 And let him soak whatever cuts healing in the ocean.

02:53:59.000 And if he happens to swallow some water, it's okay.

02:54:03.000 Because no one wanted to swallow seawater.

02:54:06.000 It's the worst thing in the world.

02:54:07.000 My father said, it's okay.

02:54:08.000 Not the worst thing.

02:54:09.000 So one day, I guess, I got around to asking him why he was so into sending my fighters to the ocean.

02:54:17.000 And he told me, that's how my father would say things.

02:54:20.000 He would just tell me things, and that's what I would learn.

02:54:23.000 And he just said to me, Ocean is where all life came from.

02:54:26.000 All life on Earth started in the ocean.

02:54:30.000 Microcosms, whatever you want to call it, he didn't get into all technical stuff, but he said it started in the ocean and it came out onto land.

02:54:38.000 He says our percentage of salt in our blood is the exact same percentage per cubic inch, you know, whatever it was.

02:54:46.000 I'm just saying it probably not close to what he said, but close enough.

02:54:51.000 It's the exact amount cubic inch as it is in the ocean.

02:54:55.000 We come from the ocean.

02:54:56.000 All life comes from the ocean.

02:54:58.000 Go back to where life came from.

02:55:00.000 That was enough for me.

02:55:02.000 My father was telling me.

02:55:03.000 Anything my father told me, that was it.

02:55:05.000 So, I said, alright.

02:55:08.000 So, as a matter of fact, he told me a story.

02:55:11.000 I remember I was going out with a girl that had a little baby that had bow legs.

02:55:20.000 And he told me, he said, and he was serious, he wouldn't say it otherwise, but he said, send her down, he had a condominium in Daytona Beach, and he said, send her down to Daytona Beach, let her stay there for the summer, and let her boy be in the ocean and the sun,

02:55:37.000 vitamin A, vitamin D, right?

02:55:39.000 I didn't know that.

02:55:40.000 And it was straightening his legs out.

02:55:43.000 Yeah, his legs would get straight.

02:55:44.000 They weren't crazy, you know, but, you know, there was a crookedness to him.

02:55:48.000 His legs would get straight.

02:55:49.000 And he was right.

02:55:51.000 Because by being in the ocean, by being in the sun, vitamin A and D, healthy, of course, I guess part of it was the swimming and part of it was the ocean and part of it was the sun, but it was straight in his legs.

02:56:03.000 Now look, did he need them to the point where he had to put braces?

02:56:06.000 No.

02:56:07.000 There was a slight issue.

02:56:09.000 Was there an issue?

02:56:10.000 Yeah.

02:56:10.000 Was it dramatic?

02:56:12.000 No.

02:56:12.000 But did he say work?

02:56:14.000 Yeah.

02:56:15.000 Was it right?

02:56:16.000 Yeah.

02:56:17.000 But we just think of braces, obviously.

02:56:21.000 And it would heal.

02:56:24.000 He would say, let the cut go in the ocean.

02:56:27.000 The salt water heals the cut.

02:56:30.000 It will heal the cut.

02:56:32.000 Well, a lot of fighters used to soak their face in brine, right?

02:56:35.000 Yes.

02:56:35.000 Yeah, well, Joe Frazier did.

02:56:36.000 Yeah.

02:56:36.000 Did that really keep your skin tough and protect you from cuts, or is that an old wives' tale?

02:56:41.000 I think that's a little bit of that old stuff, you know, where we don't know.

02:56:45.000 Right.

02:56:46.000 But they believed it, and so, you know, he smelled like a pickle when he was faring with you.

02:56:54.000 You get hungry, and then he hit you with a left hook, and...

02:56:58.000 What about other controversial training methods like weightlifting for the longest time was thought to be a taboo?

02:57:04.000 Taboo.

02:57:04.000 So Holyfield, the Mackie Shillstone.

02:57:07.000 Yeah.

02:57:07.000 Mackie Shillstone's training at Holyfield and moving him up from a cruiserweight to a heavyweight.

02:57:11.000 Heavyweight.

02:57:12.000 And he was a very light heavyweight at the beginning, right?

02:57:15.000 Cruiserweight.

02:57:15.000 Yeah, he really essentially was.

02:57:17.000 And they just pack some meat on him.

02:57:19.000 Michael Spinks with Guy.

02:57:20.000 Oh, that's right.

02:57:21.000 Michael Spinks was really the first when he fought Larry Holmes.

02:57:24.000 Yes.

02:57:24.000 Yeah, and Mackie Shilstone worked with Holyfield after that.

02:57:27.000 That's right.

02:57:29.000 Yeah.

02:57:30.000 Listen, and Gleason's, I'm going to go back to Gleason's, the epicenter of the place.

02:57:36.000 No water, no weights.

02:57:38.000 Right.

02:57:39.000 I used to have my fighters do weights.

02:57:42.000 If I felt...

02:57:45.000 If I felt that a fighter wasn't physically strong enough, I'd put him on a weight program.

02:57:49.000 But I'd do it myself.

02:57:51.000 There were no strength coaches back then.

02:57:53.000 But just a common sense program.

02:57:55.000 Just three days a week, you know, eat protein.

02:57:58.000 Of course, you have to replenish yourself with the proper diet and all that stuff.

02:58:02.000 And do it at the right time in between the training where you're not killing yourself.

02:58:06.000 You're overtraining.

02:58:06.000 Right.

02:58:07.000 You don't go sparring tires.

02:58:08.000 That's right.

02:58:09.000 You know, have the separation of workouts.

02:58:11.000 But if I had a slightly built guy that I thought two things, and the second one is one where probably sounds a little that you wouldn't normally connect to it.

02:58:22.000 But the first thing was, if I thought he could physically be a little stronger, Not that he had to be fighting inside, but when he did fight inside, because let's face it, if you're a fighter, you're going to wind up in all quarters.

02:58:33.000 You are.

02:58:33.000 Even though you say, well, I'm going to live on the outside.

02:58:36.000 Okay.

02:58:36.000 Until that day that the guy slips your jab and now you're living in the inside.

02:58:41.000 Are you ready to live on the inside for a minute?

02:58:43.000 So, I believe that.

02:58:45.000 So, I would make my guys do weights if I thought physically they could get help and improvement in those areas.

02:58:51.000 But...

02:58:51.000 I also did it for the psychological reason.

02:58:54.000 I felt that it's all a psychological battle.

02:58:58.000 It's 75% psychological mental.

02:59:00.000 And you have to do anything you can to help the fighter in that area.

02:59:05.000 Anything.

02:59:06.000 Grab anything.

02:59:07.000 If there's something floating over your head, I'll grab it.

02:59:10.000 Anything.

02:59:11.000 And the mental part, if you make them feel stronger, He'll be stronger.

02:59:18.000 If that's something that just gives him a little iota, more of confidence and belief.

02:59:25.000 Now listen, here's the catch-22.

02:59:28.000 Maybe you don't want the guy fighting inside.

02:59:30.000 Maybe his style, his makeup is the fight.

02:59:32.000 I get you, because if there's smart guys out there listening, and I'm sure there are, they're gonna think that before I said it.

02:59:38.000 Yeah, I still want him to feel stronger, okay?

02:59:41.000 I'm not going to make a guy that should box like Penel Whitaker or should box like Muhammad Ali.

02:59:46.000 I'm not going to make him fight like Jake LaMotta.

02:59:50.000 I'm okay with that.

02:59:51.000 But I want him to feel stronger.

02:59:54.000 So what kind of weightlifting would you have him do?

02:59:57.000 Do you have a background in lifting weights yourself?

03:00:00.000 No, other than I played football, so I was around it.

03:00:03.000 And I've been around gyms my whole life and fitness people all my whole life.

03:00:08.000 So I understand the plyometrics.

03:00:11.000 I understood all the advancements, all the new stuff that came out, the bands.

03:00:15.000 Hey, listen, you've got to remember, there was a guy named Charles Atlas that started with resistance training.

03:00:21.000 He was somebody kickstand in his face.

03:00:24.000 Those comic book ads, yeah.

03:00:26.000 Right?

03:00:26.000 And, you know, I don't know if he was related or not, but, you know, he did isometrics.

03:00:33.000 I believed in isometrics.

03:00:34.000 I did isometrics for the whole camp with Michael Morrow for the Holyfield fight, believe it or not.

03:00:39.000 Really?

03:00:40.000 Yeah.

03:00:40.000 I used to put my hand here, and I used to make him push against my hand both ways.

03:00:45.000 Then I would make him push.

03:00:46.000 I would design all kinds of different...

03:00:49.000 Exercises and ways to do it where I just gave them resistance with my own body.

03:00:54.000 Sometimes push against my shoulder, move me.

03:00:57.000 You know, be careful the joints, you won't strain.

03:00:59.000 You know, all common sense stuff.

03:01:02.000 So this is something that you thought of yourself.

03:01:05.000 You were trying to figure out how to do it and then you just implemented it.

03:01:08.000 Yeah.

03:01:09.000 Yeah, this is something that...

03:01:11.000 Michael Moore, man, when he was a light heavyweight, was a murderous puncher. 0.82

03:01:15.000 Murderous. 0.95

03:01:16.000 Boy, oh boy.

03:01:17.000 Woo! 0.99

03:01:17.000 He was dangerous. 0.99

03:01:19.000 He was so scary, but it seemed like the weight cut was too brutal.

03:01:23.000 Yeah, it was brutal.

03:01:25.000 He was a terrifying light heavyweight.

03:01:27.000 People forgot about him.

03:01:29.000 They forgot about him as a light heavyweight.

03:01:31.000 He knocked everyone out.

03:01:32.000 Just murdered people.

03:01:32.000 I don't think he went the distance with anybody.

03:01:34.000 He was murdering people.

03:01:35.000 Yeah, he was really something.

03:01:37.000 Yeah.

03:01:37.000 And first Southport heavyweight champ of all time.

03:01:41.000 First.

03:01:42.000 Is that true?

03:01:42.000 Yeah.

03:01:43.000 Wow.

03:01:43.000 Yeah.

03:01:45.000 Wow.

03:01:45.000 Yeah.

03:01:46.000 Better be true.

03:01:47.000 I've been saying this.

03:01:47.000 I'm sure it is.

03:01:49.000 I didn't know.

03:01:49.000 Yeah, no, he was.

03:01:51.000 I've met him a few times.

03:01:52.000 Good person.

03:01:52.000 Very good guy.

03:01:53.000 Yeah, he's, like all of us, we get lost and we get confused, all of us.

03:01:58.000 But he's a good, you know, you're good or you're not good, right?

03:02:01.000 Yeah.

03:02:02.000 He's, you want to hear a crazy thing?

03:02:06.000 Some people might, I hope they don't, Whatever.

03:02:10.000 I hope they don't take it the wrong way, but anyway, it's meant to be the good way.

03:02:19.000 I have a friend, a very close friend.

03:02:21.000 I hate politicians. 0.97

03:02:22.000 I think they're phony. 0.97

03:02:23.000 But I have one that's...

03:02:25.000 He makes a living a politician, but he don't live as a politician.

03:02:29.000 Does that make sense?

03:02:29.000 Right.

03:02:30.000 I know what you're saying.

03:02:31.000 He's the former president of Staten Island.

03:02:32.000 His name is Jimmy Harlow.

03:02:34.000 And he'd probably go crazy if he hears this.

03:02:36.000 But anyway, it's okay. 0.94

03:02:38.000 He's a little crazy anyway. 0.75

03:02:39.000 That's why we get along. 0.53

03:02:40.000 But he's a good man.

03:02:42.000 And, like, my father was born to be a doctor.

03:02:45.000 He was.

03:02:46.000 His mother knew it.

03:02:47.000 He was born to be...

03:02:51.000 I don't know.

03:02:52.000 I don't want to use the word politician.

03:02:53.000 It seems like a dirty word.

03:02:55.000 A leader.

03:02:55.000 Yeah, a leader.

03:02:56.000 A care of people.

03:02:58.000 Alright?

03:02:59.000 A public servant, maybe.

03:03:01.000 Whatever.

03:03:01.000 But, anyway.

03:03:02.000 So, he's the board president of Staten Island.

03:03:05.000 And he really does things.

03:03:08.000 And, um...

03:03:11.000 Anyway, we're close.

03:03:12.000 And he just gave us $94,000 for the foundation like a week ago.

03:03:17.000 He does that.

03:03:18.000 He finds the money and, you know, he knows, all he says is the greatest compliment.

03:03:22.000 He goes, I know where it's going.

03:03:24.000 I know where it's going.

03:03:26.000 And, um, thank you, he says to me.

03:03:29.000 I said, what do you thank me for?

03:03:30.000 Thank you.

03:03:31.000 I can't help these people without you.

03:03:33.000 You know, I get other help.

03:03:34.000 We do fundraisers and we do things.

03:03:36.000 We do a big dinner, a thousand people, a week before Thanksgiving, where we have people like Tony Dancer and Phil Simms and Bill Parcells used to come.

03:03:43.000 He don't come no more.

03:03:44.000 He don't leave Florida anymore.

03:03:46.000 But, you know, I mean, Patrick Ewing, DeCampbell Mutombo.

03:03:53.000 I mean, we're blessed.

03:03:55.000 We're blessed with Rosie Perez.

03:03:57.000 She loves Fox.

03:03:58.000 She loves boxing.

03:03:59.000 Yeah, she loves boxing.

03:04:00.000 I mean, we're blessed.

03:04:03.000 Brandon Marshall from the Giants last year, they come and they allow me to have a successful dinner because they come.

03:04:11.000 And they don't get a cent because nobody gets a cent.

03:04:15.000 And so with all that and with Jimmy, so anyway, I have these things that I just say sometimes.

03:04:23.000 So he caught me one time, but I was just saying it.

03:04:26.000 I didn't realize that it was going to register, you know, because it's just something, you know.

03:04:31.000 So I just said, I said, people bad.

03:04:35.000 So he said, what?

03:04:37.000 I said, what?

03:04:39.000 He goes, what'd you say?

03:04:40.000 I said, no.

03:04:42.000 I said, you know, it's words to live by.

03:04:44.000 People bad.

03:04:44.000 So I was joking around.

03:04:45.000 But I said, people bad.

03:04:47.000 So he said, what do you mean?

03:04:49.000 I said, no.

03:04:50.000 People bad.

03:04:51.000 He said, but you help.

03:04:53.000 You're in the business.

03:04:54.000 I said, there's good people too.

03:04:56.000 So anyway, about a month ago, two months ago, whatever, he comes up to me and he says, you're going to think I'm out of my mind.

03:05:03.000 I said, well, no, I know it, but what's the matter?

03:05:06.000 He said, with your permission, I want to take a domain, which I barely know what that means, copyright the phrase people bad, and...

03:05:20.000 If I told you I wanted to start a business with you and me, and the proceeds, some of the proceeds will go to the foundation.

03:05:26.000 We'll sell shirts, we'll do that.

03:05:27.000 And you have these different sayings.

03:05:29.000 So to start with people bad, resiliency good.

03:05:34.000 People bad, forgiveness good.

03:05:36.000 People bad, be better.

03:05:38.000 People bad, parks good.

03:05:42.000 People bad, you know, redemption good.

03:05:47.000 People bad, Let's be better.

03:05:50.000 You know, whatever.

03:05:51.000 But the whole idea is to be unapologetic and to say, we got a problem.

03:05:57.000 I don't know if you want to say we're at a tilting point, but we got a problem.

03:06:01.000 Am I a social genius?

03:06:02.000 No.

03:06:02.000 Am I a saint?

03:06:03.000 No.

03:06:05.000 But I got kids.

03:06:06.000 I care about what the world is.

03:06:10.000 You know?

03:06:10.000 Maybe if I didn't have kids, I'd still care.

03:06:14.000 And I have grandchildren now.

03:06:15.000 I have two of them.

03:06:16.000 They're beautiful.

03:06:17.000 And you know what?

03:06:20.000 There's a lot of bad people out there.

03:06:22.000 I'm not apologizing about saying that.

03:06:24.000 There's a lot of great people.

03:06:26.000 There's more good people.

03:06:27.000 But it's like drawing a battle line.

03:06:32.000 A line of resistance, really, where I want to call people out on it.

03:06:37.000 I want to remind us that we can be better.

03:06:39.000 I want to remind us that people are bad.

03:06:44.000 Selfishness worse.

03:06:46.000 And I just want to...

03:06:49.000 He brought my attention to it because I used to use that phrase so frequently when I was mad.

03:06:55.000 And he said, let's turn your mad into something better.

03:06:59.000 Teddy, that's because I know what you stand for.

03:07:03.000 That's why I give you what I give you.

03:07:05.000 22 years.

03:07:07.000 So...

03:07:09.000 People are bad, but they're good.

03:07:12.000 They're good.

03:07:13.000 Let's remind people that we need to be good.

03:07:17.000 Let's remind people. 1.00

03:07:18.000 Let's call them on the crap. 0.99

03:07:20.000 Let's freaking say, hey, we got to be better. 1.00

03:07:23.000 We got to care about the right things. 0.99

03:07:26.000 We got to stop getting caught up in our crap, you know? 0.99

03:07:30.000 And we got to be stronger. 1.00

03:07:34.000 People are bad.

03:07:34.000 Don't be weak.

03:07:38.000 In other words, we're using it to remind people that sometimes we're going in a bad direction.

03:07:44.000 We are.

03:07:45.000 Look at the world.

03:07:46.000 Look at that.

03:07:46.000 You know, when I was flying here, I was reading the New York Post.

03:07:49.000 Do you know, I don't know if people think I'm weak or something, but I didn't want to read some of the stories about some of these kids that got killed.

03:07:56.000 There was a story about a parent that someone in a hospital in Manhattan that decided to slice up a bunch of infants just ran through the hallway of this place.

03:08:10.000 It was for Chinese immigrants That they go to this place when they're young mothers, where they think it's a safe haven for their children to be there for like a month.

03:08:21.000 And so they're infants, two days old, five days old, ten days old.

03:08:26.000 And they're all in, it was all Chinese immigrants.

03:08:28.000 And they're all in there, these babies.

03:08:31.000 And this woman walks in there with a knife and starts stabbing these kids. 1.00

03:08:36.000 Now listen, I know a lot of people out there are going to say, Teddy, that's psychotic.

03:08:40.000 That's different.

03:08:41.000 Yes, yes, yes.

03:08:44.000 It's evil.

03:08:45.000 Yeah, there's evil in the world.

03:08:46.000 Yeah.

03:08:47.000 But I'm just calling to arms.

03:08:50.000 I'm not the guy.

03:08:51.000 But I'm just saying in my small way, calling to arms that we can be better.

03:08:58.000 That just remind people that, you know what?

03:09:02.000 We have so much promise.

03:09:06.000 There's so much to be grateful for in this country, in particular.

03:09:12.000 In the world, but not always.

03:09:13.000 And we have so much here.

03:09:15.000 Let's be better.

03:09:17.000 If people are bad, let's help them be better.

03:09:20.000 Let's lead the way to be better.

03:09:22.000 Let's take a stance.

03:09:25.000 So we're going to, I don't know how the freak we're going to do it, but we're going to start this company, People Bear, but then we're going to have all these inspirational, if you will, but all these positive, positive, positive things.

03:09:41.000 Things to say that, to remind you that, you know what, you could be anything you want to be.

03:09:46.000 You know that old saying, you could be anything you want to be.

03:09:50.000 But some people choose to be bad.

03:09:52.000 Let's choose to be better.

03:09:55.000 And so we're going to do some of the proceeds.

03:09:59.000 I don't know how to figure, probably whatever.

03:10:02.000 But we're going to figure it out.

03:10:06.000 He's going to do it all because I only know boxing.

03:10:10.000 I think you know more than that.

03:10:12.000 Listen, Teddy, this has been three hours.

03:10:14.000 Oh, I'm sorry.

03:10:15.000 Flew by.

03:10:16.000 No, don't be sorry.

03:10:17.000 It was great.

03:10:17.000 I really appreciate you being here, man.

03:10:19.000 Wow.

03:10:20.000 I know.

03:10:20.000 It's actually a little bit more than three hours.

03:10:23.000 Thanks for having me.

03:10:24.000 It was beautiful.

03:10:25.000 Thanks for having me.

03:10:25.000 Thank you very much, man.

03:10:26.000 Really.

03:10:27.000 Thank you.

03:10:27.000 Really appreciate you.

03:10:28.000 Appreciate you.

03:10:28.000 Teddy Isles, ladies and gentlemen.

The Joe Rogan Experience - September 24, 2018

JRE MMA Show #42 with Teddy Atlas

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