The John-Henry Westen Show - December 01, 2020


6 years in jail for offering women alternatives to abortion... and I'd do it again


Episode Stats


Length

21 minutes

Words per minute

163.28789

Word count

3,493

Sentence count

184

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Mary Wagner is a hero in the pro-life movement in Canada. She goes into abortion mills to speak to women waiting in the waiting room and offers them the choice for life in the most loving way possible. She has spent six years in jail for doing this. Her case has now been taken to the Supreme Court of Canada and will be heard by a judge.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.400 This is John Henry Weston for LifeSite News, and I am going to bring you an incredible
00:00:04.680 interview with Mary Wagner, that great Canadian hero for life, the one who actually goes into
00:00:11.540 abortion mills to speak to women as they're waiting there in the waiting room, offers 0.99
00:00:16.200 them help, the choice for life in the most loving way possible.
00:00:21.320 She's been arrested for doing this. 1.00
00:00:23.100 She's spent six years in jail for doing this. 0.99
00:00:27.180 You're going to want to hear this interview.
00:00:29.360 Stay tuned.
00:00:30.000 Mary Wagner, thank you for joining us on this episode of the John Henry Weston Show.
00:00:53.320 Thank you so much for inviting me, John Henry.
00:00:55.780 Let's begin as we always do with the sign of the cross, in the name of the Father,
00:00:59.240 and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
00:01:01.800 Amen.
00:01:04.620 It is a great pleasure for me to speak with you, Mary.
00:01:07.660 You are an inspiration to so many people in the pro-life movement.
00:01:11.300 We're here to talk today about what's going on with your case in Canada, because there's
00:01:16.320 something truly historic that's going to happen now, or please God will happen now.
00:01:20.400 Your case has been asked to go forward to the Supreme Court.
00:01:23.860 Your lawyer is taking this forward and appealed to the Supreme Court to take on this case, a
00:01:31.220 charter challenge for the pro-life issue, a charter challenge for the right to life of
00:01:36.640 unborn children.
00:01:37.320 Yes.
00:01:38.320 Yes.
00:01:39.320 We filed the leave for application to the Supreme Court just earlier this month, and we await
00:01:45.740 now the Crown's response, which is to be submitted within 30 days of our application file, and
00:01:51.880 then we have another 10 days to respond, and then it's in the hands of the Supreme Court
00:01:56.180 to make a decision whether they will grant leave for appeal.
00:01:58.940 So, your prayer is really very much appreciated at this time.
00:02:03.080 This is key.
00:02:04.740 So, what's going to happen here is a court case that is going to be a charter challenge,
00:02:09.600 a challenge to the Charter of Canada, which actually says something very strange.
00:02:14.320 I'm going to pull up here quickly so that we can all see it.
00:02:17.500 It's to deal with the charter that deals with Section 223, which says this in the most bizarre
00:02:23.940 language, it says, the child becomes a human being within the meaning of the act when it
00:02:31.880 has completely proceeded from, in a living state, from the body of its mother.
00:02:37.800 That's absolutely against all science, against medical science, biology, whatever you wish,
00:02:43.260 but that's the charter in Canada and the challenge that we're going forward with now.
00:02:47.540 We need prayers for this to be taken up at the Supreme Court level.
00:02:51.980 And Gwen Landolt, a lawyer in Canada who's pro-life, who has gone before the Supreme Court
00:02:57.200 already, has told us that this will be taken up by one of the judges of the Supreme Court
00:03:01.580 to see if it will be heard by the full court.
00:03:04.620 And we're going to learn that in the new year.
00:03:06.680 So, tell us if you could, what are your hopes for this?
00:03:08.980 Well, certainly our hopes ultimately would be that the highest court would recognize the
00:03:15.860 injustice of Section 223, which declares that a child, acknowledges the child, that before
00:03:24.900 birth, there is a child there, but is not considered a human being contrary to common sense,
00:03:33.620 contrary to scientific evidence.
00:03:36.460 And we will hope that that will be reversed ultimately, so that protection right to life
00:03:43.000 will be there, recognized from the moment of conception once again.
00:03:48.360 However, even if this court does not decide in favor of the truth, in favor of justice for
00:03:55.080 our littlest brothers and sisters, I think that this case is really important because it
00:04:01.000 will present the highest court of the land with the truth.
00:04:05.700 And if the court decides against our case, then it's clearly exposed the hypocrisy and
00:04:15.720 the grave injustice is exposed for many, because I believe that this case will garner international
00:04:24.460 attention.
00:04:24.940 Many people in the world are not aware of Canada's complete disregard from the moment of conception
00:04:32.180 for unborn children.
00:04:33.540 So, I think that either way, how the decision is made, that it will be a victory, but in
00:04:40.180 different ways.
00:04:41.380 Absolutely.
00:04:42.180 So, your story is a very interesting one, and we want to get into that a little bit.
00:04:46.320 So, you go inside the abortion mills to give women the option for life, to peacefully present 0.95
00:04:55.420 them the option for life.
00:04:57.300 So, tell us, if you could, what brings you, what motivates you to do this kind of thing?
00:05:04.260 Well, anyone who recognizes that the child before birth is a human being has to ask them
00:05:11.300 those questions.
00:05:12.080 How can we advocate for them?
00:05:14.660 How can we speak for them in a country in which we're prosecuted for trying to advocate
00:05:22.320 for them when they are most in need?
00:05:25.040 And I guess I began asking those questions even as a child, well, probably as a teenager.
00:05:30.840 And I was very touched by the nonviolent Operation Rescue movements.
00:05:36.360 I was just in my young teens at that time when it was at the height of it.
00:05:39.280 But it was always something there that if we care about the children being aborted, that
00:05:46.460 we care about those who are imminently in danger.
00:05:49.480 And so, my heart was always moved to where it's happening, when it's happening.
00:05:54.980 I think that it's too long of a story to share here.
00:05:57.920 But my heart was touched by God's grace in many ways.
00:06:01.380 But I think over time, as I grew spiritually as a young adult, I realized in the light,
00:06:11.020 in really walking in the light of Mother Teresa, the distinction between caring about an issue
00:06:16.960 and caring about a person.
00:06:18.580 And ultimately, Christ is that person, is our neighbor.
00:06:20.860 So, he led me to the abortion places, which I had been to before.
00:06:27.180 But without, he led me to a place where I was able to see, our love for them doesn't
00:06:35.600 stop where the law says, where the arbitrary law says that we cannot reach out to them.
00:06:41.620 And the question of presence for our neighbor in need is so important, even more important
00:06:48.560 than maybe what we can do.
00:06:50.640 And Our Lady really is the model for all of us as the compassion in standing at the foot
00:06:56.920 of the cross.
00:06:57.720 So, he touched my heart to see, well, you can go to these places and be there present prayerfully
00:07:06.940 and hopefully, in some ways, a conduit for his mercy, his love.
00:07:12.980 And it's really in a spirit of poverty, independence on him, hoping that God will intervene where
00:07:20.180 even human words are not able to, really walking into a very impossible, humanly impossible situation
00:07:26.520 and remaining there with the mother and child until either they walk out, which has happened
00:07:34.820 and is always the hope, or until physically it's no longer possible because the police ultimately
00:07:40.860 come, usually come and take us away.
00:07:44.700 So, let's unpack that a little bit.
00:07:46.720 You spoke of Mother Teresa and her recognizing Christ in others.
00:07:51.680 And you come from that same perspective.
00:07:53.900 You recognize Christ in the mother and the child.
00:07:56.840 And so, you have sort of two clients or people whom you're trying to reach, if you will, as
00:08:01.240 you see Christ in them.
00:08:02.360 And you actually walk into the abortion mills and as they're waiting there, waiting in the
00:08:09.120 abortion mill, the mother's waiting, you present them for, can you describe, in fact, what you
00:08:15.360 do?
00:08:16.200 So, I began taking roses with me to offer to the mothers, just as a sign of love to, and
00:08:24.860 often we would attach miraculous medals or little messages where, important messages where they
00:08:31.540 could be encouraged to recognize their child, recognize as well, equally the support that's
00:08:37.480 available to them.
00:08:39.280 And so, they were offered these roses and then hopefully that would initiate as well opportunity
00:08:46.220 to talk with them and to see really what is it that's leading them there?
00:08:50.680 What can we do to bring them out?
00:08:51.980 So, I guess one of the things that most people know is that you are a very peaceful person,
00:08:59.060 a very loving person, nothing violent about you, but what are some of the words you might
00:09:03.800 use to encourage mothers to accept life?
00:09:06.740 Well, I try to go in there really asking the Holy Spirit to say, help me say what needs to
00:09:13.260 be said, because I know that each woman is unique and what she might need to hear is going
00:09:18.720 to be different for one than for the other.
00:09:21.600 So, I think I would probably start with something general, like we're here to help you and your
00:09:27.680 child, how can we help you?
00:09:29.260 And then if there's any kind of response on her end, then depending on how she would respond,
00:09:33.560 we would take it from there.
00:09:37.220 Sometimes if there's no response, it would be trying to at least let them know by question,
00:09:41.880 do you realize that your child's heart is beating already by this time if you know that
00:09:46.720 you're pregnant, something to try to, do you know what kind of help that there is?
00:09:50.800 We will help you with anything that you need right now.
00:09:53.020 So, really trying to just let them know the help that is out there.
00:09:57.200 But again, it varies depending on the response that we'd receive.
00:10:01.100 Right.
00:10:01.720 So, what you're doing is not legal in Canada.
00:10:05.600 We have buffer zones around abortion mills in Canada where we're not able to enter into
00:10:09.920 them, you go actually right into the abortion center itself.
00:10:15.760 And so, what happens, even though you're just trying to help and do so peacefully, you've
00:10:20.520 been arrested many times.
00:10:22.040 You've been prosecuted by the law.
00:10:24.000 You've been thrown in jail.
00:10:26.560 We have video clips of you being dragged out of these places and thrown into the back of
00:10:33.720 police cars.
00:10:34.560 That must have been very scary when it happened.
00:10:37.700 Tell us your experience.
00:10:38.740 Well, actually, the very first time that I was at a killing place and was inside was
00:10:46.780 way back in, I think it was 1999.
00:10:49.900 And I was with my friend, Sissy Von Dean in Vancouver.
00:10:52.960 She was actually outside.
00:10:54.560 She remained outside.
00:10:55.580 But the police officers believed the abortion staff who said that she was not allowed to
00:11:01.100 be there.
00:11:01.780 And they arrested her first.
00:11:03.440 So, it always helps when you have a friend at your side.
00:11:06.220 So, the very first time, it was a blessing to have a partner in crime.
00:11:11.260 And subsequently, after that first time, it became easier to...
00:11:16.220 The process of being arrested, really, it's, at the moment, it's difficult because you have
00:11:23.100 your concern for the mother and the child, which is preeminent.
00:11:27.080 But you've also then got to deal with the police who are coming.
00:11:31.480 Once I'm taken away, it's more just like a time to enter into prayer.
00:11:36.460 And it's not really a stressful time.
00:11:39.720 The police have been pretty good as far as being not physically aggressive for the most
00:11:46.080 part.
00:11:46.680 And so, that part itself is not the same weight on the heart as obviously being right
00:11:52.980 in the center where the killing is happening or is about to happen.
00:11:56.860 Tell me, do you believe there's a specific call to do this kind of a thing?
00:12:00.700 And how have you been called?
00:12:01.980 Well, God calls each of us uniquely.
00:12:05.900 I would say that for myself, he poured out graces upon me.
00:12:11.080 One in particular was in prayer.
00:12:14.320 After praying for a friend who I learned was involved in some medical research involving
00:12:20.160 baby parts here in Canada many years ago.
00:12:24.300 And the source of which was questionable, he wasn't sure if they were aborted babies or
00:12:30.320 if they were donated miscarried children.
00:12:32.660 He didn't know and he did not want to find out.
00:12:35.100 And that led me really to pray for him.
00:12:36.900 And in prayer, it was like God lifted the veil for me.
00:12:40.560 And I saw what happens to the child.
00:12:44.700 And I had seen pictures before, but I had never wanted to see the videos that are out
00:12:49.400 there, but he showed me just in prayer.
00:12:52.300 And that was definitely a very compelling moment.
00:12:56.000 It was really a point of complete shift for me in my walk with God.
00:13:02.940 So our Lord says, whatever you did to the least of these, you did to me.
00:13:06.540 And you've spent, what, somewhere around years, in fact, in prison for attending to him.
00:13:18.400 How long, in fact, has it?
00:13:19.880 I think it's been close to six years.
00:13:22.140 I haven't kept track that clearly, but it's been between five and six years.
00:13:26.360 Right.
00:13:27.300 So this is you in prison for a prison time.
00:13:31.360 Well, there was a period in my mid-20s for about three years.
00:13:35.660 And I had, I received short prison sentences, maximum, I think the total, in total for those
00:13:42.260 three years was just about six months.
00:13:44.760 And then since 2010 has been the bulk of the time of incarceration.
00:13:51.260 I moved to Ontario in 2010 because Linda Gibbons had been in custody already for two years, 0.85
00:13:56.960 I think, on a maximum six-month sentence charge.
00:14:00.060 And she herself has spent about 11 years, a great-grandmother.
00:14:05.300 She's not currently in custody, but she had been a real light for me as far as persevering.
00:14:11.460 Absolutely.
00:14:12.860 Linda Gibbons, great pro-life warrior, has been a great inspiration to so many of us.
00:14:21.160 She actually also in jail, as you said, for 11 years, but she did a different thing.
00:14:26.700 She didn't go into the abortuaries.
00:14:28.700 She would walk outside with a sign.
00:14:32.460 And on her sign was, I believe it was, why mom or something like that.
00:14:37.380 Yeah, it was a, it was a, sorry, it was a drawing of a child, a small child.
00:14:42.360 And with a tear running down her face and the caption, why mom, when I have so much love
00:14:48.540 to give.
00:14:49.600 And Linda would be there as a silent presence with that sign, which was deemed illegal. 0.87
00:14:54.340 Yes, we have these buffer zones around abortion mills in Canada.
00:14:58.420 We're unable to go within a certain area, and otherwise it's illegal.
00:15:03.260 You get arrested.
00:15:05.040 And also, she saved probably countless lives, got arrested, spent years in jail as well.
00:15:11.520 And for me, I think it's a, it's a great thing to be able to go to our Lord who said, you
00:15:18.420 know, whatever you do for the least of these, you do to me.
00:15:22.500 And imagine at the end of her life, which, you know, is, is going to come likely before
00:15:28.160 yours because she's older, but she's able to go to our Lord and, uh, there he can, you
00:15:34.180 know, how he's going to say, whatever you did to the least of these, you did for me.
00:15:38.060 We'll hear things like, you know, you saw me being threatened in my mother's womb in that
00:15:45.100 unborn baby.
00:15:46.320 And you came forward to protect and defend me despite the threat to your own freedom for
00:15:53.960 doing that.
00:15:54.880 What an incredible thing.
00:15:57.120 Thank you.
00:15:57.480 Thank you.
00:15:58.060 I think it's important to remember, I mentioned mother Teresa, but, um, she took the name
00:16:03.000 of Teresa after St. Therese of Lisieux, who reminds us that it's not, um, great works,
00:16:09.220 great deeds that impress God.
00:16:11.320 She didn't put it like that, but what, what, um, God looks at is the love, the quality of
00:16:16.920 love that we put into even the most seemingly insignificant things.
00:16:20.440 So I think we have to be careful because, um, St. Paul says, even if I offer my body to be,
00:16:26.520 to be burned, if I don't have love, then there's nothing there really.
00:16:31.600 So we just have to be a little bit careful.
00:16:34.200 Right.
00:16:35.360 Absolutely.
00:16:35.800 So tell me, how do you engender that love, that pure love, that not self-seeking love,
00:16:41.460 a kind of love that, um, doesn't look to selfish goals.
00:16:46.540 I don't want to be popular for doing this or, or draw any attention to myself.
00:16:49.980 Basically I'm doing this out of the love for Christ, but yet he puts me in these situations
00:16:54.300 where I'm sometimes in the public eye.
00:16:56.600 So how do you maintain that pure love?
00:16:59.200 Well, I, I think the awareness of what's essential, um, was a great grace that I received through
00:17:04.900 time that I spent in a monastery and contemplative life.
00:17:07.980 Um, just, just sort of unplugging, first of all, uh, God is a God of silence and he meets
00:17:14.520 us there.
00:17:15.040 And, um, so in our very busy, hectic world, it's hard to see that as a priority sometimes,
00:17:20.860 but it is.
00:17:22.120 And then, then God speaks to us.
00:17:23.480 So I think not that I'm any example of what you're speaking of, but I just know that he
00:17:29.260 has given me that great grace.
00:17:31.380 Um, or at least, you know, he, he, he put me in the, in the position where I was ready
00:17:36.520 to receive, um, more capable of receiving just because of, um, the graces of the life
00:17:42.220 order to silence prayer, to listening.
00:17:44.560 So, uh, I try to keep that because it's not easy to, to, um, remain, uh, remain in that
00:17:51.840 truth when you're also in a busy world.
00:17:56.480 Mm-hmm.
00:17:57.500 Absolutely.
00:17:58.020 So speaking of the world, funny enough, um, you've been to all sorts of places in the
00:18:04.620 world, but at LifeSite, we get asked a lot about you from Poland.
00:18:08.880 Why is Poland interested in Mary Wagner?
00:18:13.140 I have to ask Poland, but, um, we know that even though the recent uprisings might lead
00:18:20.500 people to think otherwise, that, um, poll, the Polish people having suffered so much under
00:18:26.020 the communist regime and having relied so much on Christ and on the gospel, um, which
00:18:33.060 ultimately led to the overthrow of the regime.
00:18:38.320 Um, I think initially the Polish people had looked at Canada as an example of a state that
00:18:44.560 upheld, upholds human rights.
00:18:46.460 And, um, there was a, there was an email, not an email, an article that circulated about five
00:18:53.140 years ago after a judge said to me in court, if you think that you can do that, do what
00:18:59.220 you're doing, then you are wrong and your God is wrong.
00:19:01.640 And I had been receiving a steady flow of mail up until that point.
00:19:05.920 But after that article went viral, um, I received a lot of mail coming from Poland.
00:19:11.600 So I think that those were kind of the steps that were, that led to this support, this great
00:19:18.360 support.
00:19:19.960 It was an incredible thing that even in the, you know, the courts and judges and people
00:19:26.140 who say things, they sometimes will voice certain things that really exemplify where
00:19:31.780 they're coming from.
00:19:32.440 And that particular statement, your God is wrong was a real lightning rod.
00:19:38.560 It focused the issue.
00:19:40.160 It gave us a clarity that, that this is an anti-God, an anti-Christ kind of movement, the
00:19:47.160 movement to support abortion.
00:19:48.600 And it was so very clear in the words of that judge that it really did spark a lot of interest
00:19:55.340 and, and a focus on this thing.
00:19:58.640 So people need to support you in your work.
00:20:00.800 How can they do that?
00:20:02.060 Well, really prayer is the most important because we don't know how God is going to
00:20:05.600 take this case, but just if people would like to join all of us who are already praying
00:20:10.960 for, for this case and for Dr. Lugosi, who's, who's representing our brothers and sisters,
00:20:16.560 that is huge.
00:20:17.940 And that's the most important thing.
00:20:19.860 Um, also he has to be paid and that's a reality too.
00:20:23.420 So if people would like to donate and for those who have, some have made incredible sacrifices,
00:20:28.700 whether by offering the widow's might or by offering large sums of money.
00:20:34.360 Um, I just want to say thank you to everyone who has already contributed and, um, and open
00:20:40.140 it up.
00:20:40.580 If anybody would like to, to contribute, please know that it's, it's a fight worth fighting,
00:20:45.500 even if the victory is not as we would ultimately hope there would still be a victory.
00:20:50.440 I believe in just fighting the good fight.
00:20:52.520 So, so thank you.
00:20:54.580 Mary Wagner, thank you so very much for being with us on this episode of the John Henry
00:20:58.660 Weston show.
00:20:59.680 Thank you so much.
00:21:00.580 Thank you, John Henry.
00:21:01.640 God bless you.
00:21:02.160 And thank you for the good work that you're doing.
00:21:04.060 To all of you.
00:21:04.960 We'll see you next time.
00:21:06.300 May God bless you.
00:21:06.940 Hello, this is John Henry Weston.
00:21:11.020 I'd like to invite you to subscribe to the John Henry Weston show YouTube channel.
00:21:15.260 If you haven't already done so there, you will find all the past episodes and much more.
00:21:20.760 Thanks again for watching and may God bless you.