90+ DAY HORROR： How 8 Women Survived in a Bathroom
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Summary
Born in a small village in Rwanda in the early 1980s, Immaculee Libegeza grew up in a loving family and a loving home. But when the 1994 genocide broke out in her hometown, she was forced to flee into hiding.
Transcript
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when our lady said a river of blood. And what I heard in 1994, there was a headline in New York
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Times magazine that was a river of blood in the country of Africa. The exact words our lady have
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used when she was showing it, it was now the world was able to see.
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Hey, my friends, do I ever have someone special for you today? Immaculee Ilibegeza
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was born and raised in a small village in Rwanda, Africa. She enjoyed a peaceful childhood with her
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loving parents and three brothers. Education was very important in her household. So it's no
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surprise that she did well in school and went on to the National University of Rwanda to study
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electrical and mechanical engineering. It was while she was home from school on Easter break in 1994
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that Immaculee's life was transformed forever. On April 6th of that year, the Rwandan president's
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plane was shot down over the capital city of Kigali. And this assassination of the Hutu president sparked
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months of massacres of Tutsi tribe members throughout the country. Not even small rural
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communities like Immaculee's were spared from the house-by-house slaughtering of men, women,
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and children. To protect his only daughter from rape and murder, Immaculee's father told her to run
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to a local pastor's house for protection. The pastor quickly sheltered Immaculee and seven other women
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in a hidden three-by-four bathroom. And for the next 91 days, Immaculee and other women huddled
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silently in a small room while the genocide raged outside the home and throughout the country.
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While in hiding, anger and resentment were destroying Immaculee's mind, body, and spirit.
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It was then that Immaculee turned to prayer. Prior to going to the pastor's home, Immaculee's father,
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a devout Catholic, gave her a set of rosary beads. She began to pray the Holy Rosary as a way of
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drowning out the anger inside her and the evil outside the house. And it was that turning point
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towards God away from hate that saved Immaculee. In addition to finding faith, peace, and hope during
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those three months of hiding, Immaculee also taught herself English. Immaculee was always a good student
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and already fluent in a couple of her own native language, Kinyarwanda, and French. But only using
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a Bible and a dictionary, she spent countless hours in that cramped bathroom learning her third language
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of English. And after 91 days, Immaculee was finally liberated from her hiding place, only actually to
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face a horrific reality. Immaculee emerged from that small bathroom weighing just 65 pounds and finding
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her entire family brutally murdered with the exception of one brother who was studying abroad. She also
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found nearly one million of her extended family, friends, neighbors, and countrymen massacred. After the
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genocide, Immaculee came face to face with the man who killed her mother and one of her brothers. And
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after enduring months of physical and mental, spiritual suffering, Immaculee was still able to offer
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the unthinkable, telling the man, I forgive you. In 1998, Immaculee emigrated from Rwanda to the United
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States, where she continued her work for peace through the United Nations. And during that time, she shared her
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story with co-workers and friends who were so impacted by her testimony that they insisted she write it
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down. Three days after finishing her manuscript, she met best-selling author Dr. Wayne Dyer, who, within
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minutes of meeting her, offered to publish her book. And Dyer is quoted as saying, there is something much
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more than charisma at work here. Immaculee not only writes and speaks about unconditional love and
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forgiveness, but she radiates it wherever she goes. Immaculee's first book, Left to Tell, Discovering
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God Amidst the Rwandan Holocaust, was released in March of 2006, and Left to Tell quickly became a New
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York Times bestseller. And to date, it has been translated into over 20 languages and has sold over
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2 million copies. Immaculee's story has also been showcased on 60 Minutes, the CBS Early Show, CNN,
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EWTN, CBS Evening News, the Al Jazeera Network, as well as in print form in the New York Times,
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USA Today, Newsday, and many other domestic and international publications. Immaculee has received
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honorary and doctoral degrees from nearly a dozen universities and colleges, including University
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of Notre Dame, St. John's University, Seton Hall University, Siena College, Washington University,
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Duquesne University, and the Catholic University of America. She has been recognized and honored with
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numerous humanitarian awards, including the Mahatma Gandhi International Award for Reconciliation
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and Peace. Immaculee has written six additional books in recent years, Led by Faith, Rising from the
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Ashes of the Revolution, Rwandan Genocide, Our Lady of Kibeho, If Only We Had Listened, Visit from Heaven,
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and The Boy Who Met Jesus and the Rosary. Today, Immaculee is regarded as one of the world's leading
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speakers on faith, hope, and forgiveness. She has shared this universal message with world leaders,
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school children, multinational corporations, churches, and at events and conferences around
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the world, including a presentation to over 200,000 people in Sao Paulo, Brazil. A major motion picture
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of her life is currently in development at AIM International. Stay tuned to meet with Immaculee yourself.
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This is the John Henry Weston Show. Stay tuned.
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Let's begin, as we always do, with the sign of the cross. In the name of the Father, and of the Son,
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So, it is a great privilege for me to speak with you. I'm very much looking forward to actually
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seeing you in person in Omaha. And I'm sure my wife is, too. So that'll be great.
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Now, you just returned from Africa. I returned from Africa a little while ago and unfortunately
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didn't make it to Rwanda. What were you doing in Africa just now?
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So, I was in Africa and Rwanda taking a pilgrimage to a shrine of Waledi of Kibbeho,
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the only shrine so far approved by the church, the Catholic church, of the apparitions of Waledi
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of Kibbeho. I wrote a book about this, but Our Lady has always told us, bring my children here,
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bring people on the pilgrimages. So, I really try to honor that three times a year.
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Absolutely beautiful. I would encourage many people to take advantage of that.
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Where can they sign up, by the way? Where can people get to to sign up for your pilgrimage tours?
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Oh, thank you. Yeah, I take people in March, August, and November, and you can find them on my website,
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Beautiful. So, let's rewind a little bit. Let's go into, I mean, your story is so fascinating.
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We recapped it there in the intro, but tell us about prayer, how prayer, specifically the prayer
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of the Most Holy Rosary, brought you through that, just that trial.
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Oh, thank you so much. Yes, it was really prayer. It was prayer, and I came to realize the importance
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of the rosary. You know, when Our Lady appeared in Kibbeho since 1981, she always told us, pray the
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rosary. And she have told us, pray the rosary for peace of the country. Make prayer groups,
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so that what is coming will not happen. So, we heard, but we didn't listen really to do it and
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to take it seriously. So, when the genocide started, it was in 1994. I was a student in
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college, and my parents asked me to go to hide to a neighbor who was from the other tribe and who was
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a good man. So, not everyone was killing from the other tribe. But I remember when I was leaving,
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my father handed me a rosary. And it was as if his words, he didn't speak, was, I won't be here
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anymore, but if you need anything, you know what to do. You pray. You go to the rosary. I really hold it
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in my heart, but he didn't say that. He said, what can I give you? And he just gave me the rosary, and
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he said, go. And that was the last time I ever saw him. It was the only thing I left home with. I mean,
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I was a college girl. I had my bag, my little things women keep, but all I took was the rosary.
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So, I went to the neighbor. He put me in a bathroom three by four feet with other seven women. We were
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eight. We spent there three months. So, the first week, I still remember things changing. I was angry.
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I was impatient. I had fear that you can die just out of being fearful because what was happening was
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just extreme. And they started to come to search for us. So, this was a four-bedroom house. They
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would come up to the door of the bathroom, and then they would go back. But we never knew if they
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were never going to come back. So, anyway, I remember starting to pray. The first week before
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they started to search, I would pray. Hail Mary, I wouldn't even finish it because the anxiety was
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so high. But it was just not anxiety. It was also almost like feeling that, ah, how dare they do this,
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you know? Self-righteousness, maybe. But when things became worse, I really went to my knees,
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and I started to pray. So, I remember praying the first rosary, the first time. You know what,
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our lady, she used to say, pray the rosary for peace. And sometimes you think, like, it's just
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peace, you know, maybe in a country, in the world. But for you, even in your heart, I remember saying
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for the first time in that bathroom, for 25 minutes, I felt peace. I'm like, oh, wow.
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The first time I can feel peace. Then I said, let me say another rosary. So, I ended up praying the
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rosary, actually, throughout the day, truly because I was just kind of, like, listening to what was
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changing in my heart. Because the feelings of fear, pain in my soul, in my body. I mean, we were three
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by four feet. We were eight women. We were literally sitting on top of each other. It was almost an
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babel. And to think that somebody comes to search for you, it was like a thousand needles were going
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through my body. So, the rosary came and made a huge difference from a fire to a place of peace.
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So, I ended up saying the rosary from morning until night. One time, I counted, how many rosaries
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that are taking me from morning until night? I counted 27 rosaries every single day. And that
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did, yeah. Because, and it wasn't like, oh, let me be a good person and pray more. It was just that
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I was not good for myself. I had no peace if I was myself. I was thinking. And to think was meant
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to see reality, what was happening. How can three, four hundred people keep searching for a bedroom
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and they won't find one door? It was almost impossible. So, the morning I prayed, I felt the
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power of God. It wasn't just praying, saying the words. I was talking to God Almighty, who made me,
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who can do all things. And I can see, I can hope more when I was praying. So, the rosary kept me
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sane, safe, because we were not allowed to speak in that bathroom. So, I had to pray. And when I
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prayed, I felt as if I was visiting Our Lady, Saint Joseph, and Jesus was born. What happened? You know,
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I was happy and then I would be not happy. When I got through the sorrows and the glory, I was there.
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Wow, he just wrecked it. Good. He did it. You know, it was like, I was gone. And then evening,
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I would close my eyes and fall asleep where I was sitting. So, it really worked in many ways,
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just by keeping me company, really, Our Lord. And through the joy, I was able to think about the
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life I have lived. And through the sorrow, I was able to offer God what I was going through. So,
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that alone was just like, I can talk. I didn't just need to keep it inside. I had Our Lady. I always
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felt I was laying down on the lap of Our Lady, holding her on her knees like this, like a child,
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you know, and her hands just like over my head. Okay, I'm here with you. But it only came through
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prayer. So, from that comfort alone, another part that came from the rosary prayer was the reality,
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the teaching. I felt like I was learning. Because after time, I remember, I would be praying,
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but the bad voice almost inside. It will be there. You know, when you pray the rosary,
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sometimes your mind takes you places. And the way the mind was taking me was in a bad place.
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They would cut you in pieces. They would rip you. They would do this. I'm like, oh, I can't take that.
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But I'm like, what am I going to do? Now I'm praying, and yet the bad voice is still there.
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And I remember feeling in my heart as if Our Lady was telling me, pray with your heart.
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Mean what you say. If you mean, and you can hear yourself, that's when the bad voice will not
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torture you. The fear, the, you know, lack of hope, it will not come. And I'm like, okay, good. Let me
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do that now. I literally remember starting. Our father trying to mean what I say. I'm like, what?
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Our father? That will mean the father of everybody. But he cannot be the father of the killers.
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And I was like stuck. And then I started to feel, I felt as if somebody was teaching me.
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Think about it. Your father have three boys. If one of them does wrong, does your father stop being
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their father? Actually, he would think more about the one who does wrong. And he would worry about
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them more than the one who is right. I'm like, you're right. And that's when I realized, wait,
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I have been, maybe I was trying to create my own God, I guess, who he's supposed to be,
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not who he is. And that's really when I realized, no, God says in the Bible, he loves us more than
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we love our children. And that means if my father can still love his sons, when they do wrong,
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that means God is, is heartbroken, but he still loves them. They are still his children. And then
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I would change. Okay, good. Let me start again. Our father of the good and the bad, who art in heaven,
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and I would keep going until I would, I reached to forgive us our trespasses. So all that was like,
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no, I can't forgive them. There's no way. They still tried to kill me. It was like transformation.
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It really transformed me to a point where I said, God, I wish I can tell people how the rosary can
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change you. And now I feel like I have a chance to show you. Indeed you do. I think your book has
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spread the rosary, the beauty, the unbelievable power of the rosary and it giving you courage.
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Now you said something that you said it was the first time you were in peace. Did you mean the
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first time you were in peace while in the bathroom or while all that was going on? Or did you mean
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the first time in your life? No, not at all. The first time in the bathroom, because the moment we
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went in, we lost peace. We were sitting on top of each other. And before my life was simple.
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You know, I really grew up in a Catholic family where we just respected our parents and where we
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lived to the later what our Catholic church taught us. Respect your parents. You have commandments of
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God. Help the neighbor. Don't say a bad word. Don't do anything bad because that's not what we do.
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You follow the church, go to mass, the holidays, respect them. And that's what my parents did. I
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still remember there's no one night in my family we ever went to sleep without praying together as a
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family. Yeah. Incredible thing that you've been able to spread the truth of the rosary, the power
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of the rosary, both through your book, through your witness and so many television shows and things
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hereafter. Our lady, our Lord has really chosen to use you to spread devotion to his most, most holy
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mother, the, the power of her rosary. Um, so many people have hardships that they deal with. And I
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think anger is, is a big thing because it is something that is affecting people today in various
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ways. You've explained how, you know, the rosary, especially the Lord's prayer was able to get you
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through that to recognize first that they were, they too are God's children and we are to forgive
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them as, um, and forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us. Amazing lessons. How do you deal
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with anger? Um, even in your own life today? You know, yes, you're right. It was, it was the first time
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actually during that genocide, I truly even felt that it was possible to forgive because I still remember
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again fighting with God in some ways in arguing inside, how is it possible? And when I remember
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going through again, the rosary, the fifth sort of mystery. And when our Lord was dying on the cross,
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I still remember just like going through his words. Now that I was praying with the heart. And when he
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said, forgive them father, they don't know what they do. And again, I wrote, it tells more about what
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happened, but that was really unlocked everything. All this time I want to forgive, but how, how do you
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forgive? And I really was sincere this time. It wasn't like, I just want to be myself. What I think
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to be right. I remember telling God, if you just only can explain to me that how does it make sense
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that you can forgive somebody who is already looking for you, have a machete, maybe kill your mom, have not
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even apologized yet. How is it possible? Because I knew God was asking. And again, I wanted this time to
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say, I mean, I wanted to follow whatever God wanted, but I knew also he's a God. He's a reasonable
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God. Yes. We have a blind obedience, a blind faith, but also I realized that when you really want to
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understand God touches your heart. So I remember when I went through this part, forgive them father.
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They don't know what they do. It was like just a moment of grace. The second part, not the first part
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or this time I want to forgive, but how the second part, they don't know what they do. That moment,
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it felt as if Jesus was speaking to my heart personally. And again, this was through the
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rosary, just meditating on a mystery. They don't get it. People are trying to kill you. They don't
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have any measure. The consequences would come to them. They don't know the pain they are causing you
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and you trying to be like them. It doesn't change anything. It adds the number of madness. And that
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moment truly, again, I would say graces come from prayer. And that was one of those, because I have
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prayed that mystery before, but for some reason at the time, I was able to get it. It was like a light
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in my heart. You're right. How can somebody kill a child and think they know what they're doing,
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but how come they don't see it? I remember arguing because they're smart. They're people,
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they're normal. They're not crazy because they're blinded. Blinded by what? By hatred, by selfishness,
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my lack of faith. And all that, they would have to go through that to see what they have done.
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But learn from me. Just follow my words. I want you, you personally. So that was really the moment
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I was able to see they don't get it. And me trying to be like, let me hurt you because you hurt me
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doesn't change anything. It was almost like science, you know? How do you go to do what you hate most?
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They're doing bad to me. And yet all this time, I was thinking about how can I revenge? How can I
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become a soul? I can hurt them more. And the worst thing about anger, it becomes obsessive.
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You think about it and you go back and you go back. So you ask me how I deal with anger today.
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That was such a big lesson to me during that horrible time. That was really clear. And I did meet the
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man who killed my family. I really, I thought, let me see how I would feel if I meet him. And when I
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met him, I still remember, he used to be a man who, who used to be dressed nice, had a beautiful
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family, very honorable, a man I respected like a father. But when I met him in prison, I still
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remember he have lost weight. He have a skeleton. His feet were swelling. He hadn't shaved in like
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six months. When I saw him, it was as if I heard the words of our Lord in my heart. Like, you see
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what I told you? They don't know what they do. And you want to do that, then go through the
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consequences of, of evil, of the sins. They don't get it. And I truly forgive this man.
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I realized that if he was so smart that he would be so strong to hurt me, would he not
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have thought about what can follow? The consequences can come. And how do you even go to hate somebody
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who doesn't love themselves? And that what happened with each one of us, when we do wrong, when
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we do evil, when we go against God, it's like we are going against ourselves. So it is so good
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to be able to seek truth because it is actually smart to seek truth. Because all the time I went
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through with anger, I used to have a headache out of anger during that time. My blood was running
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faster. My whole body was aching, but I didn't know what I can do about that. That's what you do.
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You get angry. You want to hurt them back. You become a hero when you hurt them back. No, not at all.
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So that was a knowledge I got and have been helping me even now in my life. The hardest
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thing maybe I will say now in my life, how I live is to understand what to do. However,
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I know for sure forgiveness has to be, but sometimes, you know, forgiveness has so many stages and
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also demands a lot of actions. Sometimes somebody is trying to hurt you and you need to run like,
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like our lady in St. Joseph had to run from Herod. And sometimes you need to go towards them so that
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you can have a friendship, maybe explain to them. And sometimes you just have to stand up what is
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right and be yourself. So that is maybe the hardest thing for me in my life now. But for sure,
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forgiveness, I must forgive. If I feel anger, which of course I live in new situations like everyone,
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if I go through a betrayal or something that hurts, and I feel like I wish that person maybe to feed what
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they have caused me, I got to say my rosary and my God, they don't need to feel it. Please help me to
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forgive. I was there. I fought you. I don't want to forgive. I don't, it doesn't make sense, but
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forgiveness is always the best thing. And I know for sure it's always possible. If it was able to be
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possible that time in the worst situation, it can be possible now. And sooner or later,
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I always find myself, I have forgiven that person. It doesn't come quickly. Sometimes
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when it is hard, when it has hurt you really, but it always come in the end. And then you can pray for
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the people. You can see them where they are. You can see they are risking even to go to hell. You can
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have compassion on their soul, not to wish them to hurt, but to wish them to change. Our lady used to say
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something so beautiful. She said, pray for your enemies. When you pray for your enemies,
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you rob them the power to continue to do evil. I'm like, that's not right, because prayer is powerful.
00:24:05.140
Tell us, tell us more about Kibbeho. What is Our Lady of Kibbeho?
00:24:10.500
Oh, Our Lady of Kibbeho. I love her very much. So Our Lady of Kibbeho appeared in 1981. I was 11
00:24:16.580
years old. And somehow I started, my heart was completely stolen, you know, into these apparitions.
00:24:24.220
I still remember actually when she started to appear, me and our friends, we were playing games
00:24:29.080
about Our Lady of Fatima. I had one girl because we were almost the same age as kids of
00:24:35.100
Fatima. And we have heard about the story. So we convinced one boy to join us and one girl with
00:24:40.940
three. So every day we used to go, we follow the cows of our parents and we'd send the rosary
00:24:45.960
around the bush. And we'd send the rosary. And then we're like, Our Lady will come. And it's
00:24:50.980
so funny. We used to say flash. And when we said flash, we'd run. And within that time
00:24:58.000
of game, Our Lady appeared in Kibbeho. And I still remember we cried. We cried like, no, she's
00:25:03.840
supposed to come here. Why did she go there? Why did she go there? We were kids, you know,
00:25:09.460
11 years old. Anyway, from that time, though, my heart never doubted. I truly knew she was
00:25:16.040
there. And my dad would take me to the priest and we would tell the priest, we need to hear
00:25:21.260
the messages because they concern us. You know, they were supposed to come to us. So I did.
00:25:26.900
And recently, it's so funny, when I wrote a book about Our Lady of Kibbeho, I interviewed
00:25:30.940
the bishop there. And then he would say things. I would remind him other things. And he asked
00:25:36.360
me, like, how come do you know so much about this? I'm like, yeah, it was supposed to be
00:25:41.060
me. Of course, I'm not a visionary. However, the visionary apparitions started on November
00:25:48.320
28th in a high school called Our Lady of Kibbeho. And I mean, now it is actually Our Lady
00:25:54.180
of Kibbeho's school. Merdi verb. In a high school, one visionary whose name was Alphonsine
00:26:01.340
Mumreke, she was 16 years old. She was actually feeding, serving other children on the table
00:26:07.140
when she just lost it. And the spoon fell down and she saw the most beautiful woman in front
00:26:12.740
of her who told her she's the mother of the word, W-O-R-D. So recently I saw her because
00:26:19.640
she's a cloister nun. I was asking her, come and help me to spread the message. And then
00:26:25.100
she told me, Our Lady said she will choose those who will receive the message and those
00:26:30.200
who will spread it. Maybe you are one of those. And yeah, she told me, remember when you shared
00:26:36.580
the message, number one message of Our Lady of Kibbeho was to emphasize service, to serve
00:26:42.840
one another. She could have come when she was praying the rosary, when she was in the church,
00:26:48.160
but she came when she was serving other children with a spoon in the air, just trying to serve
00:26:53.240
the kids on the table. And that's when Our Lady came. So I love that message a lot. I feel
00:26:59.140
like I just want to help. I just want to be there for other people. I still work with that
00:27:03.920
school actually in Kibbeho, helping kids to go to school who can't afford. And the nuns,
00:27:08.680
you know, to rebuild the school, which have been there for a long time. But anyway, Our Lady
00:27:12.980
started that time. And this girl, her name is Alfonsini Mumuleke. So it's funny. In Rwanda,
00:27:20.160
we all have our own last name. Mine, Ilebagiza is not my father's name, not my brother's name.
00:27:25.720
Oh, okay. So yeah. And the last name is given only by your father on the seventh day after you were
00:27:33.700
born. So the father is supposed to think for like seven days. And then the morning of the eight,
00:27:38.700
that's when he said the name. And all the neighbors come to see what happened, what happened? What is
00:27:43.740
the name? It's very, very beautiful. Oh my, a child in Rwanda is like heaven, you know, like the whole
00:27:49.740
community celebrates. And so the last name of Alfonsini, Mumuleke, she was very persecuted in
00:27:57.220
the beginning. Her name, Mumuleke, means leave her alone. So people in Rwanda were like, oh,
00:28:05.480
our lady loves our culture. She's using the names. And of course, she loves every culture. I mean,
00:28:11.120
in every country, I feel there can be bad habits that are different than culture. But I think it's
00:28:16.720
God who creates people, his own and culture are a gift of God in a good, beautiful practice like
00:28:24.320
that. I think it was such a confirming the role of her father. We loved it. And then she begged our
00:28:29.920
lady, please appear to somebody else because they won't listen to me. So she appeared to a second girl
00:28:36.700
whose name was Anathari Mukamazimaka, who was the most pious kid in the school. Very quiet,
00:28:42.700
doesn't like attention. And then she had a parishion. And when her parishion started,
00:28:49.240
people were able to say, it must be true. If Anathari was. And guess what her last name is?
00:28:55.900
Mukamazimaka. The one who settles arguments. The one who settles arguments. Again, it was such a
00:29:04.940
little sign that, oh, our lady knows our culture. And she came, of course, speaking our native language.
00:29:10.060
And the message is really the same as what she gave Fatima, you know, what she gives everywhere
00:29:16.800
in Lourdes. Come back to God. She cried in Rwanda. I mean, the way she appeared was a little bit
00:29:23.720
different, again, given to our culture. So she would appear like four hours. One day she stayed eight
00:29:29.080
hours. And one time I remember a priest from Europe, they said, it cannot be our lady because she
00:29:37.180
doesn't stay this long. And then one priest, they said, it must be our lady because if she's telling
00:29:44.540
them she's their mother, she's behaving just like a Rwandan mom. Because Rwandan moms, when they go to
00:29:51.080
visit children, they don't just go to visit. They come to investigate. They come to teach to also see
00:29:58.640
if you are behaving the way they grow you up, if you are doing good, you know, questions, talk, laugh,
00:30:04.940
sing, dance, you know, and she used to do all that. So one, yeah, the big message really, okay, in a few
00:30:11.840
words, was asking us to pray for the church. She said the church would go through a period that is
00:30:17.020
really bad. She said, pray, pray a lot for the church. And then, yeah, she told us a terrible thing
00:30:22.980
was going to happen to our country if we don't come back to God. But she also said her message
00:30:28.640
does not only concerns Rwanda, not even just Africa, but the whole world. So she said, pray the
00:30:34.460
rosary and make prayer groups and pray with your heart. You see how in Medjugorje she said, pray with
00:30:40.240
your heart. In Rwanda, she used another word, pray sincerely. And she would, the same way she
00:30:47.980
repeat three times, like in Medjugorje. In Rwanda, she always said, musenge, musenge, musenge,
00:30:53.540
meaning pray, pray, pray. So she really emphasized the importance of prayer, but especially of the
00:30:59.920
rosary. I can't tell you how I love that because I feel like sometimes you're trying to understand,
00:31:05.620
like, how do I do that? What is the right thing? How much do I pray? And then you have the mother of
00:31:10.180
God who will come and tell you what to do. And she tells you, she said, at least pray the rosary every
00:31:15.140
day, every day. And she was asking the whole rosary. And that time was joyful,
00:31:20.380
sorrowful, glorious. And that's my God every day. If I can, sometimes I say more, but my God is
00:31:26.900
to say that rosary as she asked and pray it with my heart. And sometimes my heart, of course, my mind
00:31:33.460
is gone and I have to come back, like, no, let me do it again. Or, or just know that at least I know
00:31:38.680
the God. She always said, mass is very important. Number one, actually, she said, if I am appearing
00:31:44.860
anyway and there is a mass going on, you go to mass first because I am. Yeah. She said,
00:31:51.200
I am leading it to my son who is life, the way and the truth. And of course, as a mother,
00:31:57.300
she said, as a mother, I love you. I love you very much. Oh, she used to repeat that. And it
00:32:02.460
would just to this day give me chills. I truly feel her presence so much. And she would always
00:32:07.060
say, I love you and I love you and I love you very much. And she would say, please don't
00:32:12.320
forget the love I promised you. And she would say, pray that we remain together. Do good.
00:32:19.280
She was, she was a mother. She came such a mother. There's no day I don't think about
00:32:25.660
already, of course, through the rosary, but also just to remember how she showed herself
00:32:30.980
a mother who teach children how to sing and she would teach them songs, you know? So it
00:32:38.360
was beautiful. Many messages by it are beautiful. Indeed. There's something she said about the
00:32:44.900
church. What did she say about the church specifically? She said among many messages,
00:32:50.580
how she would speak about that. She said, pray, pray for the church. And she said the church will
00:32:55.780
go through a period of persecution or a very bad time. Pray, pray a lot for the church. Pray for the
00:33:04.000
priest, whom she loved, by the way. She always, this is one time I remember I was there and she
00:33:10.420
looked at the place where people are sitting and she asked the visionary to repeat, my children,
00:33:16.060
I love you. I love you. I love you very much. And then she looked where the priests were and she
00:33:20.520
repeated again through the visionary. I love, and you, my sons, I love you on my heart. Thank you for
00:33:26.040
taking my son to my children. You are the bridges he worked through to reach the children. And he said,
00:33:33.080
pray for them. You don't know how much you love, you need our priests. So she really woke me up to
00:33:38.460
the need of the priests and to pray for them and to love them and to see what they have done to give
00:33:43.880
themselves for us. Yeah. Yeah. But she definitely said more than once how the church is going to
00:33:51.720
travel through a difficult period. So she will refer to that. And she said, pray, pray a lot for the
00:33:58.700
church. Definitely. Definitely. Now, when I was in Africa, I noticed, and we've been noticing at
00:34:05.600
LifeSite for decades now, there's a lot of pressure coming from the West onto Africa, particularly
00:34:13.780
the Sub-Saharan Africa, not South Africa, because they were already gone that way. But there's a lot
00:34:20.840
of pressure to implement a lot of the things from the West, abortion, contraception, the LGBT agenda,
00:34:28.700
and the pressure is very, very severe. Have you seen that yourself? And what's your take on it?
00:34:37.160
Yeah, you're right. I can feel that. And I know our countries like Rwanda, I still really fighting
00:34:42.960
against, but I can still feel that. One time, actually, I remember going to Rwanda and I was with
00:34:49.240
a group of senators from the U.S. who have taken me as a speaker. And then we sat in an apartment.
00:34:55.700
And we're in Rwanda, by the way, we have now like more than half are women. But I remember after the
00:35:01.180
genocide, they said, whoever can do it, do it. Let's do the work. We're not anymore going to
00:35:05.900
discriminate from women and men. And so they really just want everyone to be able to apply and do the
00:35:11.960
work if they can. And then I remember U.S. people, they said, oh, you have more women here. And one
00:35:18.300
lady said, yes, in a way that as if like we won over you. And then the woman Rwanda said, wait,
00:35:24.620
wait, not that way. It is our men that support us. We are still a family. I am a woman. This is my
00:35:33.320
husband. We are supporting each other. And we cannot go there because we're fighting each other
00:35:38.280
or we conquered over you. So the culture is still very strong, at least from where I am and
00:35:43.880
from the neighbor countries, Uganda, Kenya, the culture of family, the role of a man,
00:35:51.260
the role of a woman is very, actually very beautiful. So the country is very, I think people
00:35:57.620
are being confused by the pressure that is pressuring them to become how people do things
00:36:03.360
here. And so they're still struggling, but I think people are strong. And really, you might
00:36:11.100
have things in papers, but like the Rwandan people, they're going to continue to be who they
00:36:16.300
are. The culture of, again, of a father, who named the child is a father and is going to continue
00:36:22.020
to be like that. But we feel the pressure. Indeed. And what role do you think Our Lady of
00:36:28.460
Kabeho will be playing in the, both in Rwanda's future, but also in the future of the church?
00:36:36.740
Oh, huge. Our Lady is playing a big role already because she told us what was coming. It was
00:36:43.560
actually August 15 on a big feast of Our Lady when she showed the doom that was going to happen to
00:36:49.700
our country. But all that she was saying, if we don't change, that's why I love it. And I really
00:36:55.500
write and speak about that because she was giving an answer to that. She gave us a rosary called
00:37:00.820
Seven Souls Rosary to one visionary who already approved by the Vatican. And she said, this is a
00:37:08.040
gift I'm giving you to be able to defeat evil that is going to go against the church, to go against
00:37:13.900
people, people's faith. So because she showed us what was going to happen, she showed the children,
00:37:20.040
people killing each other with machetes. Holes of dead bodies. Yeah. Holes of dead bodies. A river of
00:37:26.220
blood. I literally remember when Our Lady said, a river of blood. And what I heard in 1994, there was
00:37:33.400
a headline in New York Times Magazine that was a river of blood in the country of Africa. The exact
00:37:40.020
words Our Lady have used when she was showing it, it was now the world was able to see. So we saw that.
00:37:46.780
And I still again remember that. I remember my mom telling me, do you think it's happening maybe in
00:37:52.660
100 years, 200 years? It was going to happen 12 years later. So why I feel Our Lady of Kibeho is
00:38:00.960
going to be listened to and is changing our country is because what she said, it did not take long.
00:38:06.740
It was 12 years later, where a million people died exactly as she described, if we didn't listen,
00:38:12.940
which of course we didn't listen as a country. So because people hurt. And I still remember she
00:38:18.520
said, if this happened, people will hurt. And the only ones who will be able to survive,
00:38:24.120
it will be only by the grace of God to tell of his mercy of what have been done for them.
00:38:30.100
It will not be by human capacity. As she said, no one will be left without suffering.
00:38:36.680
So and that is really what happened to Rwanda. One time Our Lady appeared during the genocide,
00:38:41.400
and she said, don't cry for those who are living. Cry for those who stay. Because they
00:38:46.260
will be fighting with anger, different consequences. And truly, some people died. Others remain like me
00:38:53.160
as survivors with pain. I mean, when you lose 90% of your whole family, it's almost hard to put one
00:39:00.020
foot in front of the other. Really, by the grace of God, I am able at least to say I survived.
00:39:06.260
And others had brothers who killed, who are in prison. Others who ran away from the country.
00:39:12.780
The whole country, it's a miracle that the country is surviving. It's a miracle the country is rising,
00:39:19.760
actually, which is beautifully rising, I mean, from the ashes. So because Rwandans have seen that,
00:39:27.260
what Our Lady said, again, which is not too long ago, and have seen the country being destroyed,
00:39:31.860
that's when people can listen. So you can say whatever you want, but I know what I felt.
00:39:38.440
You can't, you can tell me, don't say the rosary. I know what the rosary did for me. So you really
00:39:43.040
can't take that away from me. So to this day, because of many miracles happened on the shrine
00:39:48.140
of Fualedi of Kibeho, to this day, on the Feast of Fualedi, there's like 50,000 people to 100,000.
00:39:54.220
And during the Mass, the priests have to say, if you are protested, if you're not Catholic,
00:40:01.480
you can't receive the Eucharist. And why this many people come? Because they know this mother
00:40:07.640
who came there have spoken. And what she spoke, she could have, she tried to protect us and we
00:40:14.300
didn't listen. And then some people go there who are trying to get pregnant. And then the grace of
00:40:20.040
their body, they start saying the rosary, then they get pregnant. So many graces are being given
00:40:24.560
on the shrine. So people go because they have seen the consequences of not listening to a lady.
00:40:30.380
And with that alone, Rwandans are listening. And with that alone, I hope and I pray with people,
00:40:37.500
I take this on the pilgrimages. When they hear the story, they see what happened because we didn't
00:40:42.920
listen. They don't want to listen to anyone who tell them don't follow. Yeah. Indeed, indeed. Beautiful.
00:40:50.040
Tell me, you mentioned this, Seven Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary. What is that?
00:40:55.300
So actually, it's a rosary. This is one, a rosary of Our Lady. It has seven Hail Marys and seven sorrows.
00:41:04.480
So Our Lady gave it one visionary, Marie Clea Mukangango, who was the head of the crew that was
00:41:10.800
persecuting the other two. And then Our Lady appeared to her. And then, of course, she completely
00:41:15.580
changed. And so she told her she wanted to give her this mission to spread the Seven Sorrows
00:41:21.440
rosary. And Our Lady told her it always existed, but people have forgotten about it. So she told
00:41:28.060
her, she was looking at it, and we didn't see, but she would say, like, Mother, what is that
00:41:33.160
kind of rosary do you have? And then she said, why does it have Seven Hail Marys? Is it the right
00:41:37.960
rosary? So Our Lady taught her about it. And she said, this is not a prayer that will replace the
00:41:44.400
other rosary. It is a prayer, a gift she's giving to the world to renew and to protect them. I mean,
00:41:52.060
every prayer, again, is a means of protection to receive graces. And this is one of those.
00:41:57.660
So the first sorrow of this rosary is called, I mean, the first sorrow, the prophecy of Simeon.
00:42:04.420
And then the second, the flight into Egypt. The third, when Jesus was in the temple for three days,
00:42:09.980
again, from the perspective of Our Lady, who was suffering for three days, when she made him on
00:42:15.720
the way to the cross. And the fifth, when she was standing under the cross. The fifth, when she received
00:42:21.600
him dead, his body. And the seventh, when they placed him in a tomb. So the beautiful thing,
00:42:27.540
about this rosary, I feel privileged. It was Our Lady who was speaking about herself,
00:42:32.520
teaching us what she felt. So she would say things like, I felt. What hurt her most, for example,
00:42:39.100
when they run to Egypt? She said, my child was cold and hungry. And she didn't have enough milk to give
00:42:46.640
him, enough food. And he was caught and said, oh, it hurt her so much. So you're like, oh my God,
00:42:52.360
I'm hearing this from Our Lady. To the visionary straight. And when they made on the way to the
00:42:57.780
cross, you know, how she, she wanted to remove that. She wanted him to free to himself, but she
00:43:04.580
knew that Messiah was born to save us. But she said she felt the tones of her head. She felt the cross
00:43:10.960
of her body. So it was just like, oh, it was so sad. And then I remember when she, she spoke about how
00:43:18.220
she received the dead body of our Lord. Again, in the first person, she said she was then able to see
00:43:24.340
his body close to her eyes. And she was able to see how many, much wounds he had. And she said,
00:43:30.860
I wondered how he was able to carry the cross over these wounds. And then she said, as she's washing
00:43:36.560
his body, she thought about every stage of his life. When the angel came to her, when he was born,
00:43:43.800
the joy she had, when he was growing up, a teenager, when he started to preach and the pain of a mother,
00:43:51.680
just explaining what she went through. And anytime I go through these sorrows, which I try to do every
00:43:57.040
day, I, we actually have a prayer group. We pray these seven sorrows every day. I just, I always
00:44:03.040
remember my family. I mean, going to bury the remains of my family and losing my mom and dad
00:44:08.460
and two brothers. And I see our lady went, what she went through. And that really sustained me.
00:44:14.360
I mean, I'm a sinner. I'm a person. I, I, I have sins and I can turn from my sins and the sins of my
00:44:21.220
ancestors. But what about our lady? She was pure and look what she had to go through for her only son.
00:44:27.040
So she always gave me strength. Anytime I go through the seven sorrows, I cry for her,
00:44:31.020
but I feel like she, she takes care of me. She, she gives me strength. I, I wrote a book recently
00:44:37.200
called, uh, a blessing in disguise of, um, about the seven sorrows. And one, our lady have told us
00:44:44.500
in Rwanda, she's in Kebeho. She said, when you pray these sorrows, always put yourself in her shoes,
00:44:50.720
ask yourself, what if it was me? What would I feel? And what I heard is when therapists are trying to
00:44:57.400
help people, they make them talk about their feelings. So anytime I go through the seven
00:45:02.940
sorrows, I always have to make a little time to make every sorrow just to kind of be there for a
00:45:07.440
lady, console her, sympathize with her. And when I do that, it's like my, all the pain I have is gone.
00:45:15.080
I finish it. I'm like, I'm free now. So I call the book a blessing in disguise because there's just
00:45:21.900
something that through his wounds, ours are healed and through her sorrows, ours are healed. I don't
00:45:27.540
know how, but that's what happened. Yeah. Absolutely beautiful. And I need you to tell
00:45:32.700
us about your latest book. I understand you have another book. Yes. Oh, my latest is about the
00:45:37.860
seven sorrows rosary. Oh, very good. Yes. So that is the one. And, and I'm trying to write about
00:45:43.980
the culture of Rwanda actually, because it's such a beautiful culture about you were asking about how
00:45:50.140
our country is taking the pressure from outside, but the true culture, before you get married,
00:45:56.600
they had to prepare you what to expect, how to tell you, which this is a commitment for life as
00:46:02.340
women who are married in your, in your, in your family. And for the man in the same way, they would
00:46:08.340
teach the young men or the married men, not the young men, what to expect. So they went in really
00:46:14.860
knowing that this is strong. So anyway, I'm trying to write about that because I want to write about
00:46:20.840
the culture before people forget about who we are with the pressure of the West, like you said.
00:46:26.440
Yeah, definitely. So your website immaculate.com. Yes. Good. And people can access all of your
00:46:34.520
information there. Is that right? Yes. The pilgrimages I have, I take to Kibbeho or my books,
00:46:40.000
I send them signs. So the seven souls rosary, which I love. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Immaculate.
00:46:46.920
Thank you so very much for telling us both about your witness. I think it's so amazing.
00:46:54.280
In the prophecies of our lady of Kibbeho, she prophesied you and many of your brothers and
00:47:01.400
sisters who are sharing the message, like you are talking specifically about those who would be saved
00:47:07.480
through only through God as you were. What a beautiful thing. Thank you for staying faithful
00:47:14.200
to that incredible calling. Thank you so much. Appreciate that. Thank you. God bless you, Maculay.
00:47:21.460
You too. And God bless all of you. And we'll see you next time.
00:47:25.860
Hi, everyone. This is John Henry Weston. We hope you enjoyed this program. To see more like it,
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