The John-Henry Westen Show - January 19, 2022


A Catholic perspective on COVID 'mass formation psychosis' with Franciscan University professor

Topics
Hosted by
Mentioned
John-Henry Westen explains how Catholics should act when Pope Francis contradicts Church teaching Catholic activist Jesse Romero lays out the spiritual tools needed to fight the devil

Episode Stats


Length

28 minutes

Words per minute

155.6

Word count

4,380

Sentence count

249

Harmful content

Toxicity

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

5

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Dr. Stephen Samut, a professor of psychology at the Franciscan University of Steubenville, discusses the concept of mass formation psychosis, a phenomenon that has been discussed by Dr. Desmet and Dr. Malone and others.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 when you see people walking outside wearing a mask, when they should be exposing themselves
00:00:05.240 to the air, which is how we build our immunity. These are all irrational
00:00:09.400 behaviors, and this seems to be one crucial aspect of mass formation.
00:00:18.360 Hello and welcome to this episode of the John Henry Weston Show. You know, today we are so
00:00:22.560 beset by confusion because everywhere you look, you don't know who to believe.
00:00:26.080 Do you go this way or that? Well, something's come up of late that's been very interesting,
00:00:31.160 but who knows what to make of it. It's called mass formation psychosis. We've heard it talked about
00:00:36.180 by a Dr. Desmet, Dr. Malone has raised it, Dr. Peter McCullough, some of the known voices. I wanted
00:00:42.080 to talk to somebody who is a known figure, at least in the faith world, who we can trust. A professor
00:00:49.480 from the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a professor in the Department of Psychology,
00:00:54.100 he actually has a PhD in neuroscience and actually a background in pharmacy as well. He was a
00:01:00.560 pharmacist. So you're going to want to stay tuned for this discussion about mass formation psychosis
00:01:05.820 with Dr. Stephen Samut. Please stay tuned.
00:01:27.800 Dr. Samut, welcome to the program.
00:01:29.920 Thanks for having me on.
00:01:30.860 Let's begin, as we always do, at the sign of the cross. In the name of the Father,
00:01:35.580 and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
00:01:39.000 First of all, if you could explain to us, what is this new phenomenon? This is mass formation
00:01:44.580 psychosis. What is it? Is it a well-established teaching already? Is this something new? What
00:01:50.620 is it? If you could explain it to us, please.
00:01:52.420 Mass formation is a kind of mass hypnosis in a way. You can look at it, where society, a big percentage
00:02:01.100 of society starts following a particular narrative without any reasoning behind it. It's an irrational
00:02:09.700 following that doesn't involve real thinking, the utilization of our intellect. It really isn't a
00:02:18.520 new concept. There's psychologists, for example, Gustave Le Bon, who addressed this. And that was
00:02:27.640 just before the World War, World War II. So this is not a new concept. It's basically a formation of a
00:02:35.720 herd from humans. And we shouldn't be acting as a herd. It really explains what went on in Nazi Germany. 0.70
00:02:43.780 It explains what happened in many of the communist countries and really, truly explains how people just 0.68
00:02:51.620 become accepting of things that they shouldn't accept that are being imposed upon them, very often in the
00:02:58.900 form of government and positions such as what I mentioned. What is different, I guess, about mass formation is
00:03:05.780 that if you look at the literature, the scientific literature, you don't actually find too many papers on mass
00:03:11.620 formation. And this is because mass formation is actually made up of many concepts. As Dr. Desmet from
00:03:18.840 Ghent University addresses, there's several requirements for mass formation to take place.
00:03:24.760 And those require many aspects in society to come together at a crucial point that then leads to mass
00:03:31.780 formation. If you could go through them, what are the elements to mass formation? How should we recognize
00:03:37.240 this? What do we have to see to understand that it's happening? I think one aspect that is clear in
00:03:43.880 all of it is irrationality, irrational arguments. However, as you indicated earlier, one aspect that
00:03:53.480 is problematic is how do you find the truth? But irrationality plays a significant role in this regard.
00:03:59.340 In fact, Dr. Gustave LeBlanc himself addressed how basically people who become part of a crowd,
00:04:08.560 because that's what you're doing. Crowd formation is another term for this. People who become part of a
00:04:14.980 crowd lose their distinctiveness and also start acting in a more primitive way. And the more primitive way
00:04:24.480 is more of the lower brain, which is more impulsive, less rational. So one of the aspects that we need
00:04:33.700 to look for is irrationality. If I may give an example from this pandemic, for example, if we start
00:04:40.360 listening to aspects where people refer to a pandemic of the unvaccinated, that just does not make
00:04:48.500 scientific sense. It's irrational. When you start seeing people wearing, with all due respect, wearing
00:04:54.820 a mask in a car when they're on their own. When you see people walking outside wearing a mask, when they
00:05:01.540 should be exposing themselves to the air, which is how we build our immunity. These are all irrational
00:05:07.040 behaviors. And this seems to be one crucial aspect of mass formation. The other aspect also
00:05:15.600 is the abandonment of, in a way, of community, and yet the forming of a community. But it's the wrong
00:05:26.680 kind of community that is formed. There is a wrong form of connectedness that takes place. It's not the
00:05:33.680 human social good connectedness that we should all have. It's a connectedness that is associated with
00:05:42.140 either an ideology or a false teaching or some sort of a teaching or a leader that suddenly comes out
00:05:51.740 and is leading the mass in this particular direction. So there's that aspect also. So there's
00:06:03.380 irrationality. Then there's the aspect of the formation of a leader, of a concept that draws the
00:06:11.020 focus of people from anything and everything that has gone on around them solely to it. And that is
00:06:16.380 exactly what we've seen with COVID. And Dr. Desmet talks about this also. And for those people who
00:06:23.980 have been watching this progress, they would have seen how I've often complained, for example, how
00:06:30.780 it seems like people have focused on the virus particle. Can it pass through a mask?
00:06:36.220 Yet the virus particle is not everything. We've forgotten the consequences on humanity. So that
00:06:45.580 narrow-minded focus is another aspect that distinguishes it. And I think you could probably
00:06:52.680 recognize from the points that I've mentioned that these are all aspects that we have been observing
00:06:57.620 with regards to what is being called the COVID pandemic.
00:07:01.300 Dr. Desmet and Dr. Malone, they outlined sort of four requirements to get to this situation of
00:07:08.840 mass formation psychosis. What are those and how have we seen them all play out?
00:07:14.540 One is lack of social connectedness. Now, things like this don't happen suddenly. So in terms of
00:07:21.360 explaining how we have seen them play out, we have seen social media, you know, cell phones,
00:07:26.660 people on their cell phones. I mean, you speak to a chiropractor, even he'll tell you that one of the
00:07:32.560 issues that he has to fix most is because people are so much looking down at their phone. So there's
00:07:37.980 this isolation that we are, we have created in society. So there is a social disconnectedness
00:07:45.420 that has been that has been lost. Lack of meaning. Desmet calls it meaning making sense making. So
00:07:53.980 lack of meaning in life. As a society, we've become more secular and we've abandoned God.
00:08:00.860 In our society, as humans, realistically speaking, as creatures, we referring to each other
00:08:09.580 has a limit because we're referring to a person or a being that is in a way equal to us. And there's a
00:08:17.940 limit to how far we can go in terms of how much that person could potentially help us, for example,
00:08:22.880 or how much they could even understand us. This lack of meaning, then, you know, being, not being
00:08:30.120 able to look towards a greater being than us as a reference point that is unmovable, unchangeable,
00:08:37.260 and we can refer to constantly without any potential difficulty, let's put it that way. Not that it's
00:08:45.360 not difficult sometimes to approach God, not because he makes it difficult, but because as humans,
00:08:50.260 sometimes it's intimidating and sometimes we're just obstinate, then there's the free-floating
00:08:56.780 anxiety. As a society, over the past 60 years, anxiety and depression have skyrocketed. The
00:09:04.460 amount of prescription medication that is given for this is phenomenal. And we see it. I mean,
00:09:10.880 I've published a number of papers and we have another one actually coming out in relation to COVID and
00:09:17.280 mental health, but we see a significant amount of anxiety even among our students and in society
00:09:25.560 in general. So a free-floating anxiety. And again, this is potentially associated with the previous
00:09:31.720 point of lack of meaning in life, because if you don't have a purpose in life, then you're going to
00:09:35.900 be anxious. You're going to be insecure. The next aspect that he talks about, the fourth point,
00:09:41.100 is free-floating aggression, frustration. And this is a result of potentially all of the previous points
00:09:49.440 that I've mentioned. If I'm on my phone a lot, if I don't communicate, if people don't understand me
00:09:55.000 because I'm on my phone and my communication is not the way I would express it, then there's going
00:10:00.600 to be frustration. If I don't understand what my meaning in life is, there's going to be frustration.
00:10:06.540 If I have anxiety that I feel I can't control, there's going to be frustration. So those are
00:10:12.120 the four points. So just putting them in single words, lack of connectedness, lack of meaning,
00:10:18.900 free-floating anxiety, and free-floating aggression.
00:10:22.960 I guess in the end game with this, you come to a, they were speaking about an ability to believe
00:10:32.060 anything, to not question things, which don't make sense. The irrationality that you spoke of
00:10:36.320 earlier. And then also we're, we're now coming to a sort of painting of an enemy. When, when we saw
00:10:44.380 with the Nazis in particular, the Jews were painted as the enemy and sort of the, the, the solution 0.97
00:10:53.440 was getting rid of them. We seem to be there as well with the painting of the unvaccinated as the 1.00
00:11:01.300 enemy. And the, the somehow great solution is for everyone to, to mandate the vaccines. What do you,
00:11:08.880 what do you make of that?
00:11:10.140 Well, we're basically giving the people an idol to, to compare it to the scriptures. It's like when
00:11:16.100 Moses went up to the mountain and, you know, the Jews went, went up to Aaron and said, well, we need
00:11:21.740 to have a God. And that's, that's what is happening. So one was, we had COVID being put forward. Then we
00:11:29.880 have the experts supposedly that tell us what we're supposed to. So you can see, this is a dynamic God,
00:11:36.660 if you want to call it. It's a constantly changing because sometimes people catch on. And that's one of
00:11:42.280 the things that you really don't want. If you intend on controlling the crowd, on controlling people,
00:11:47.600 we have experts. I mean, with some people like Fauci who will say, you know, I am science. I mean,
00:11:53.860 when a person says I am science, I mean, nobody knows everything in science that is the, you can't
00:11:58.820 get any more arrogance than making such a statement as, as, as that. So we have these, these false gods
00:12:06.200 that are placed in front of people that, that continuously cause the people to have some other
00:12:13.620 focus. Because remember, the moment you are asked to look at your own insecurities, that's going to
00:12:19.420 cause you anxiety. And that's what the people don't want. And this is why they keep on, well, we have
00:12:25.000 the COVID pandemic. Okay, let's focus on that. Now we need to focus on who's telling us the truth and
00:12:31.420 who's supposedly taking care of us. Next, if those things don't seem to be working, then we have to
00:12:36.940 blame somebody. Anxiety is necessary for a mass formation, as is an enemy. And in that case, then
00:12:44.780 you, you find the, the, the unvaccinated, you, you, the respect of, of how irrational it is to, to blame
00:12:53.040 the unvaccinated, you blame them. And who knows what's next? Even, even the constant variation in the 0.99
00:13:02.020 variants that keep on coming out. Not to say that they don't, I mean, this virus, these viruses have
00:13:07.140 been, coronaviruses have been around for many, many thousands of years, and they're going to
00:13:12.520 continue being around. They continue to vary, and that's how they, they, they change. So I, I feel
00:13:20.960 sometimes one of the first things that I had said when this pandemic supposedly broke out, I said, you
00:13:26.440 know, it was, it's, I find it rather interesting. If you had told people, this is a flu pandemic,
00:13:30.580 I don't think anybody would have cared. We've gotten used to the word flu, but think about it.
00:13:35.680 If I tell you SARS-CoV-2, if you're not into immunology, virology, you're going to look at this
00:13:42.480 and think, oh, wow, oh no, this must be some sort of a monster, and then come out with COVID.
00:13:48.720 So there's always this constant movement of, of, of focus in order to keep people from realizing the
00:13:58.620 reality, and also just keeping them under, under control.
00:14:04.040 What are the things you, you told me before the, the interview that I'd really like you to address
00:14:08.440 is some of the ways we got here in the first place, and how, for instance, this relates to
00:14:16.460 one of the great lacks in our society today, particularly related to fatherhood.
00:14:20.860 As we have been progressing as a society, or regressing, sadly, one of the aspects that has
00:14:28.440 been clear is, despite the fact that we've learned a lot, we've grown in knowledge, I
00:14:34.040 don't think as humans we've really grown in sense, or it's common sense, as many people
00:14:38.960 joke, although it really isn't, the joke is not so common after all.
00:14:42.460 Um, so, everything we do in life, everything that we do as a, as a functioning human being
00:14:49.580 relates to each other.
00:14:51.640 I, I mentioned earlier the lower brain.
00:14:54.640 I have a model here, let me just, uh, pull it up.
00:14:58.540 This is half a brain here.
00:15:00.300 So when we talk about the upper brain, we're talking about the parts up here, the lower brain
00:15:04.260 is down there.
00:15:05.140 Um, the upper brain is the more executive function, the, the, and it is executive and
00:15:13.400 function in the sense that it has to control what's going on in the lower brain.
00:15:16.900 Now, when we talk about psychological disorders, all psychological disorders are basically an
00:15:22.940 imbalance between the upper brain and lower brain.
00:15:25.660 Not that I'm going to go into psychological disorders, but what we've seen in society and
00:15:29.840 what we've fostered in society is an imbalance between the upper brain and lower brain.
00:15:34.200 Because be it, if I'm enjoying a nice meal, be it, if I'm in deep prayer and meditation,
00:15:42.580 there's activity going on in the brain between the upper brain and lower brain that is either
00:15:48.680 allowing the upper brain to control the lower brain or allowing the lower brain to run loose.
00:15:54.740 So what we've seen in society with, for example, the increased amount of pornography, the destruction
00:16:00.380 of the family, the attacks on the family, the attacks on manhood, uh, you know, where, where
00:16:07.940 even members of Congress basically make it sound like it's criminal to be a man.
00:16:14.480 Um, all of these aspects have affected the way our brain functions, because for example,
00:16:21.500 in general, okay, at a quick look, if I had to look at a brain of a person with schizophrenia versus
00:16:28.160 a person that has abused with alcohol, uh, I really wouldn't be able to tell much of the
00:16:33.740 difference. You'll see a shrinkage in the upper brain. You'll see an increase in ventricular size
00:16:38.440 and the lower brain becomes more powerful. We've done that in society with our various addictions,
00:16:45.940 be it shopping addictions, be it the pornography increase in pornography, the, the, these obsessions
00:16:52.940 that people have, uh, the, the video games, uh, all of these feed into each other. There is absolutely
00:17:00.880 no disconnectedness, uh, between how the brain functions, uh, and how we behave and how we ultimately,
00:17:10.820 uh, how that ultimately affects even our spiritual life. So for example, if I spend time meditating,
00:17:18.560 I actually increase the capacity of the upper brain to control the lower brain. That's being
00:17:25.580 shown in MRIs. On the other hand, if I abuse the drugs or if I use, if I'm a consumer of pornography,
00:17:31.540 the lower brain will become more, more stronger. The, the aspect to keep in mind there is that
00:17:39.260 unfortunately the way we, unfortunately it's the way we were created, uh, the upper brain
00:17:45.860 slows down in growth towards the age of about 25. It slows down. It's still capable of changing
00:17:54.020 because otherwise we wouldn't be able to change our behavior, but it slows down in growth. But the
00:17:59.020 lower brain has the capacity to keep on changing and changing significantly. And it, it keeps on wanting
00:18:05.400 more and more and more and more to feed it. And so you, this is where you get the instant gratification.
00:18:11.840 So once, once we've become a society of instant gratification, where it's me, how I feel, what I
00:18:19.920 want, and I want it now, then you're lowering your capacity to reason, increasing your capacity to be
00:18:27.260 impulsive, and then making situations like this, the mass formation, which is more of a primitive form
00:18:33.820 of behavior, easier to happen. You mentioned the fatherhood aspect. We know that, for example,
00:18:40.640 families, most especially African-American families, we know from the statistics that the absence of
00:18:46.920 fathers is part of the reason of the high levels of crime rates there. That, again, that is, um,
00:18:53.200 scientifically, has been scientifically shown. Even Obama admitted that when he was giving a talk
00:18:58.020 in, in, uh, Illinois. See, there is no contradiction between faith and science. Sadly, unfortunately,
00:19:05.000 I think many of us Catholics have forgotten that aspect. Uh, we say we believe that, but we don't
00:19:10.960 act it. Um, so the way we have been created to be in community, to have a family that consists of a
00:19:20.260 mother, a father, and a child, um, of a male, of a male, female, and a child, um, just to be clear
00:19:29.000 these days, uh, is, is something that is actually not only an aspect of faith, but it is also an aspect
00:19:37.000 that has been shown to be, uh, uh, of great significance and for stability, uh, and mental,
00:19:45.020 positive mental health in society, even in science. So we've seen that in science. So this absence of
00:19:51.640 fatherhood because of the increase, the breakdown of the family is, is really significant. And that's
00:19:58.780 why we have a crisis of fatherhood in society. People look for the leader. This again goes back
00:20:06.940 to the mass formation aspect. People will look for a leader for them to be led because they want to be
00:20:13.360 led. So there is obviously an importance in terms of trying to preserve and bring together and keep
00:20:19.680 together the family that is obviously essential. But then also from the perspective of the church,
00:20:25.240 unfortunately, I feel that we have a crisis of fatherhood, even within the church, because when,
00:20:31.100 when we have a situation that is so irrational as this, where clearly you have in general up to
00:20:41.300 approximately age 65 or so less than a 1% mortality rate. And yet we have lockdowns, we have the forced
00:20:52.060 mask, mask mandates, we have the church closings and the church is cooperating with this. And then we
00:20:59.820 have the vaccine mandates and that you see the church leaders, uh, cooperating with this. It is
00:21:06.660 rather disturbing because they truly are not acting as fathers, the fathers that the flock needs or the
00:21:13.720 shepherds that the flock needs in order to be led, uh, led in the right direction towards Christ and
00:21:20.020 towards, uh, physical as well as spiritual health. Because when, when you look at the church closures,
00:21:26.480 for example, when you have so many saints, I believe, I think St. Ignatius of Antioch said this,
00:21:31.660 uh, who emphasize the necessity for communion, for the reception of communion, uh, with the, the,
00:21:40.520 the importance as Catholics, we believe in so much in, in the importance of the sacraments in, in our
00:21:47.600 functioning as a spiritual, in, in spirituality, as well as physical, um, uh, being, um, when we,
00:21:57.800 when you think about the importance and significance of that, uh, uh, of those, and then you see churches
00:22:04.400 closed, the church is not doing its duty in leading, or I should say the church leaders are
00:22:10.960 not because Christ's church is, is, is, is not the issue here. It's, it's the leaders within the church.
00:22:18.360 Um, they, they are not providing the leadership that is necessary in order to maintain and keep the
00:22:25.100 people focused on where they should be focused on the faith aspect. Because faith, if you recall,
00:22:32.140 I said the issues that lead to a mass formation include lack of connectedness. Well, when we go to
00:22:39.680 mass, there's this community aspect. If you're depriving people of mass, but telling them to watch
00:22:45.980 it on TV, that is not the same aspect of community, the spirit faith community that is so necessary for the,
00:22:53.040 the, the, the same functioning basically of, of people, the meaning sense-making. If people,
00:22:59.180 people may pray at home and hopefully they do, but when you give them, when there is a purpose
00:23:04.640 of going to church, being with your community, being part of that sacrifice that is actively being
00:23:10.840 offered in front of you, there's sense-making there. There is meaning-making there. In a way you
00:23:16.260 could say then the, one of the greatest enemies of the great reset or the, the, the plan, if you will,
00:23:23.520 to go down this road, to create a situation where you have this mass formation so that people
00:23:28.780 basically aren't questioning anything and are looking hungry for, uh, some kind of ultimate
00:23:33.500 leader is actually the faith. And that's probably why it's so threatening. 1.00
00:23:36.860 Absolutely. In fact, Desmond himself refers to that because when he was asked, uh, why do people
00:23:44.680 succumb to this or who in a way are the proponents of this? One of the things that he referred to,
00:23:51.720 he said, he, he, he spoke about the fact that the number, the people he's met that are proponents of
00:23:57.820 this are, uh, more mechanistic, biological reductionist, transhumanist mentalities. And these,
00:24:04.420 these are obviously contrary to our, our faith. Um, so in a way he, uh, hinted towards the aspect
00:24:13.660 of the necessity for, for faith without saying it directly. Dr. Samut, thank you so much for being
00:24:19.880 with us. Um, any parting thoughts for us as, uh, as we, as we go? It is necessary for people to keep
00:24:26.180 on questioning, to keep on asking, to keep on seeking the truth. The truth, um, as my grandmother and
00:24:32.960 my parents used to say, it's not a fruit that's going to fall into your mouth. You need to look
00:24:37.160 for it. And it is difficult sometimes to look for it, but we must look for it because unfortunately
00:24:42.680 even peer reviewed journal, scientific journals and articles, even scientists, unfortunately,
00:24:49.180 even some Catholic scientists are not telling the truth. So we need to reason. We need to look for
00:24:56.640 the truth. We need to defend our faith. We need to fight for our faith. We need to fight for the
00:25:01.920 sacraments. We need to desire the sacraments. We need to build our knowledge, both in terms of the
00:25:08.440 science, if you want to call it. And I mean that in the broadest sense, because obviously not everybody
00:25:13.180 is a virologist, not everybody's a neuroscientist, et cetera, but we need to broaden and grow our
00:25:19.500 knowledge in the truth, be it in the material world through science, but also certainly in our faith
00:25:26.080 and ensure that we are, uh, uh, helping our faith, nourishing our faith and helping it grow.
00:25:32.920 But we must continue to inquire because the moment we stopped challenging, the moment we stopped
00:25:39.840 questioning, that is when the, the, the great reset, the mass formation has basically taken over
00:25:47.600 and returning from it is going to be significantly difficult.
00:25:53.120 Dr. Samut, thank you so much for being with us on this episode of the John Hunter Weston show.
00:25:56.520 Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on.
00:25:59.120 And God bless all of you. We'll see you next time.
00:26:03.840 We have been warning everyone who would listen and attempting to build up alternative platforms
00:26:09.280 to continue to reach you. We have established ourselves on all sorts of platforms. I'm going
00:26:15.120 to explain in a minute, but the most important thing to do is come direct to life site news.com
00:26:20.660 because there we will always be, but we've also established ourselves on platforms like parlor
00:26:26.840 and me, we, and our videos can be found on rumble as well. We would love to see each of you on those
00:26:33.560 platforms too, as they are not censoring or suppressing the truth that we are sharing every single
00:26:39.160 day. More than these alternative social media platforms, we highly encourage you to subscribe
00:26:45.120 to our email newsletter. We have really built up a large list of loyal readers on our email
00:26:51.000 marketing platform, and we have prepared several backup plans for, well, I want to say if, but it's
00:26:57.940 really when we are removed from our current platform as well. Additionally, I really encourage
00:27:04.480 you, as I said before, to make it a regular habit to go directly to life site news.com, make it your
00:27:11.180 homepage. While all of these different platforms are an excellent way to curate your news going
00:27:17.380 directly to our website means that you will never encounter any censorship or sudden loss of life
00:27:23.360 site news reporting. Here's the thing. We will never stop sharing the truth. We founded this
00:27:30.320 organization with the mission to be the life, family, and culture source for men and women who
00:27:36.100 seek to know the truth. We have established a track record of honest reports, and this will never
00:27:42.720 stop, even with censorship happening around the globe. Again, I'm encouraging you to join us on
00:27:50.560 Parler, MeWe, Rumble, and on our email list. You can find all the direct links in the description of this
00:27:57.700 video. May God bless you and keep you, and we are so thankful that you've chosen to follow and support
00:28:03.540 LifeSite News. I'm John Henry Weston, co-founder and editor-in-chief of LifeSite News.