The John-Henry Westen Show - Anti-LGBT Laws and Values Keep Kenya Proudly Pro-Family

00:00:00.000 Hey, LifeSafe friends, we are back in North America.

00:00:02.980 You know, we went to Africa with the hopes of getting to the last place on earth where 0.99

00:00:07.880 the truth on the family is still respected.

00:00:10.600 We were there where sexual morality is under fierce attack from the West, which is trying

00:00:16.540 to force the poorest of the poor in line with the woke agenda.

00:00:21.540 We visited Uganda and Kenya, where Christians form the majority of the population, where

00:00:27.200 the spiritual leadership stands strong in its defense of the traditional family values

00:00:32.240 and where the government, too, recognizes the harm to society from contravening God's

00:00:38.980 design for human sexuality.

00:00:41.180 So when we went to Africa, it was just as Pope Francis was suggesting that the African bishops

00:00:47.400 need a conversion on the matter of anti-sodomy laws.

00:00:51.280 He suggested that the laws involve the death penalty and that it is there a crime to have

00:00:58.180 homosexual tendencies.

00:01:00.280 That is, of course, not the case.

00:01:03.080 I spoke with legal experts about the laws around homosexuality there, but I got to one legal 1.00

00:01:11.860 expert, one lawyer, who's one of the most impressive lawyers that I've ever met.

00:01:15.860 I guarantee you that you are about to learn a ton in this next interview.

00:01:21.960 You will learn not only the actual law in Africa, but also their origin and the philosophical

00:01:27.940 roots of the loss in the West of the war against the family.

00:01:32.540 This is the interview Pope Francis should have had before commenting on anti-sodomy laws and

00:01:40.200 the need of the African bishops to convert.

00:01:42.160 This is the John Henry Weston Show.

00:01:45.160 You're going to want to stay tuned for this one.

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00:02:42.920 Let's begin as you always do with the sign of the cross.

00:02:45.740 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

00:02:49.960 Amen.

00:02:51.280 So last week, we showed you the strong stance of the African bishops, standing firm in support

00:02:58.160 of legislation protecting the family, in support of anti-sodomy laws.

00:03:02.260 They are ready, they said, to suffer, even martyrdom, to hold true to God's truth on the family.

00:03:11.200 Take a look.

00:03:13.600 Let the world sort of the earth.

00:03:16.400 If we are tasteless as a church, where do we go?

00:03:19.460 We must have the taste, attract people.

00:03:22.300 Even if it means martyrdom, that we be ready and firm to stand for it.

00:03:26.120 They know that they face the superpowers of the world and are ready to stick to the truth,

00:03:34.040 come what may, persecution and even death.

00:03:38.240 But the pressure from heretical factions in the church is also strong.

00:03:44.360 And I truly wondered when I went there if they would be able to survive that combined pressure

00:03:50.440 of the state and the church.

00:03:53.620 And I was assured that indeed they would.

00:03:55.900 First off, I was told that 95% of the people in the pews fully support the pro-family teachings

00:04:03.400 and legislation.

00:04:05.600 And our gracious hosts in Africa reminded me, too, that the Anglican bishops in Africa have

00:04:12.320 withstood the same kind of pressure from the Anglican leadership in the West to cave in

00:04:18.400 on homosexuality.

00:04:19.740 And they have there in Africa nevertheless stood firm for the last 30 years.

00:04:25.560 I spoke also with school officials and pro-life activists in Africa, both about the LGBT agenda

00:04:32.060 being pushed and what they are doing to fight it.

00:04:35.780 Stay tuned for that in a future episode.

00:04:38.520 But before we get there, I just had to address the interview that Pope Francis gave while leaving

00:04:45.080 Africa, where he did that joint press conference with the bishops who lead the pro-LGBT churches

00:04:51.060 of England and the Church of Scotland.

00:04:53.460 During that in-flight press conference, Pope Francis actually suggested, believe it or not,

00:04:58.960 that Pope Benedict XVI supported Pope Francis' take on homosexual civil unions.

00:05:06.520 However, I can assure you from Benedict's own writings that it is clear that Pope Benedict

00:05:14.980 opposed homosexual civil unions, as does the Church.

00:05:19.820 In 2003, the Vatican document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, and this is from Pope

00:05:27.820 Benedict while he was still cardinal under Pope John Paul II.

00:05:31.020 He was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, and the Congregation released

00:05:35.900 a document in 2003 called Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions

00:05:43.340 Between Homosexual Persons. 0.88

00:05:45.500 And I'll quote from that document to show exactly what the mind of Pope Benedict of Cardinal

00:05:51.000 Ratzinger was on this question.

00:05:53.800 And the document reads, and I quote,

00:05:55.500 When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first

00:06:02.740 time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition

00:06:12.160 clearly and publicly and to vote against it.

00:06:16.780 The document continues,

00:06:17.820 To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral, end quote.

00:06:27.460 As we know, gravely immoral means a mortal sin.

00:06:31.720 Now, this is interesting because the document was approved by St. Pope John Paul II and ordered

00:06:37.540 published.

00:06:38.660 You know what's really interesting?

00:06:40.020 It was published on June 3rd, 2003.

00:06:43.940 June 3rd is the feast day of the Ugandan martyrs.

00:06:48.640 And if you're wondering who those were, go look at the show from last week where we detailed

00:06:52.760 the Ugandan martyrs who withstood the attempts of the king at the time to enter into homosexual

00:06:59.020 relations with him. 0.70

00:07:00.540 And for that, they were killed.

00:07:02.580 You got to check out the link to the full document from the Congregation for the Doctrine

00:07:06.980 of Faith headed up at the time by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who then, of course, became

00:07:12.060 Pope Benedict XVI.

00:07:13.620 What is truly alarming about all this is that there was so little pushback from church authorities

00:07:20.540 regarding the statements by Pope Francis, which contravene constant church teaching, unchangeable

00:07:27.880 church teaching.

00:07:29.220 Thankfully, we had some pushback.

00:07:31.600 There was New York theologian Father Gerald Murray, who everybody knows from EWTN.

00:07:36.800 He spoke on this issue at on Raymond Royer's show on EWTN.

00:07:42.480 Have a listen.

00:07:42.940 Sodomy is a sin. 0.78

00:07:46.620 The misuse of the sexual organs to seek venereal pleasure in a way that's not natural intercourse

00:07:54.940 between a husband and a wife. 0.53

00:07:56.460 That's what the sin is.

00:07:57.880 It's clearly taught in the Bible and the natural law.

00:08:00.440 Sodomy is a mortal sin.

00:08:02.500 Now, laws against sodomy are designed to warn people not to commit that sin and to protect

00:08:08.460 society, where if that sin were tolerated, it might become more widespread.

00:08:13.880 You know, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible is a warning to us.

00:08:18.420 Now, the Pope, unfortunately, is becoming an advocate of decriminalization of anti-sodomy

00:08:23.740 laws.

00:08:24.680 And it's hard to believe that we would say that.

00:08:27.360 In that same interview, he quotes, he's quoted as saying that, you know, he knows African

00:08:32.500 bishops are against changing those laws.

00:08:34.740 He said they have to undergo a process of conversion.

00:08:37.980 And I'm shaking my head.

00:08:39.380 The people have to undergo conversion of those who want to commit sodomy, not the bishops 0.93

00:08:43.360 who are telling them this is a sin, it's wrong, and the state should not legitimize it.

00:08:48.840 So, you know, what is the basis where you would decriminalize sodomy?

00:08:53.360 Do people have a right to commit sodomy?

00:08:55.380 Is this somehow now a human right?

00:08:57.520 That's what the left claims.

00:08:59.080 The Catholic Church doesn't say that.

00:09:01.100 Now, what about people who engage in prostitution? 0.94

00:09:03.200 They're going to say, well, I don't like being stigmatized by laws that criminalize

00:09:07.240 prostitution.

00:09:08.860 Incest is against the law.

00:09:10.800 People might say, well, that's consensual among adults.

00:09:13.780 Why can't they do it?

00:09:14.820 So a lot of confusion here.

00:09:17.300 You know, I've worked with courage over the years.

00:09:19.220 And one of the most discouraging things that courage members talk about is when the hierarchy

00:09:23.520 doesn't teach the truth in a clear and understandable way.

00:09:28.760 I mean, who's going to be happy with this decriminalization of sodomy? 0.89

00:09:32.020 It's not that people who support church teaching.

00:09:34.580 They're stunned.

00:09:35.880 The Pope, if anything, should be saying laws that lead people into sin should never become

00:09:40.740 law.

00:09:41.180 But did we hear from any bishops?

00:09:45.660 Even one?

00:09:46.580 Well, yes, we did, actually.

00:09:48.200 We heard from Tyler, Texas Bishop Joseph Strickland.

00:09:51.640 He tweeted about a video of a certain priest by the name of Father Jason Charon.

00:09:58.000 Father Jason is known, of course, to us at LifeSite, and he does amazing work, very courageous.

00:10:03.060 And Father Charon called out Pope Francis personally.

00:10:06.880 Bishop Strickland, in his tweet, pointing out or pointing to the video response from Father

00:10:14.400 Charon, said this.

00:10:15.640 This is the words of Bishop Strickland commenting on what Father Jason Charon said.

00:10:21.080 And I quote,

00:10:21.740 Those were the words, again, of Bishop Joseph Strickland regarding what Father Jason Charon

00:10:40.880 said.

00:10:41.160 And I want you to watch a couple of clips from Father Charon's video, and you'll see

00:10:46.720 why Bishop Strickland's words are so strong.

00:10:50.060 Have a look.

00:10:52.160 I say this to, you know, my father in Christ, my naked father in Christ, maybe like a drunken

00:10:59.280 Noah.

00:10:59.600 For the sake of your own dignity, the dignity of your office, is to repent from this insanity,

00:11:09.160 Pope Francis, and preach the gospel, calling all people to repentance.

00:11:16.300 Yet what we have here is the Holy Father, Pope Francis, going into these nations and speaking

00:11:22.040 not about the gospel so much as about urging these people to change their code of civil law

00:11:33.400 to reflect the zeitgeist.

00:11:37.040 Who do you belong to, Francis?

00:11:39.560 Do you belong to Christ?

00:11:42.300 Or do you belong to Sodom?

00:11:45.780 Let's get back to Africa. 1.00

00:11:47.080 What I truly wish is that the Pope would have learned from the Africans about their rationale 1.00

00:11:54.440 for the defense of anti-sodomy lies.

00:11:57.520 Why the insistence on only accepting the so-called wisdom of the West?

00:12:02.980 Is there no room in the Pope's heart for the truth coming from Africa? 1.00

00:12:08.640 I thought it's all about listening to indigenous peoples.

00:12:12.180 I thought that's where we were.

00:12:13.700 Apparently not.

00:12:14.660 Here is what the Pope needs to hear.

00:12:19.320 This most impressive lawyer is named Charles Kanjama.

00:12:24.540 And let me introduce, well, in fact, let him introduce himself.

00:12:31.300 So my name is Charles Kanjama.

00:12:33.520 I'm an advocate of the High Court of Kenya, which means I'm a lawyer.

00:12:36.840 I'm also a senior counsel, which means I've been recognized as a lawyer who has been practicing

00:12:42.380 law for a number of years.

00:12:44.020 I happen to currently also be the chair of the Kenya Christian Professionals Forum, which

00:12:50.100 is an ecumenical group that brings together Christians from different denominations, Catholics,

00:12:56.940 evangelicals, and Protestants, and different professional groups.

00:13:00.780 And we advocate for similar values in the area of life, family, and religious freedom.

00:13:06.060 I'm also a managing partner of MUMA and Kanjama Advocates, which is this law firm where we are today.

00:13:12.580 And now I want you to strap in and get ready to learn.

00:13:17.380 This is the lesson Pope Francis and all of the West needs from Africa. 0.99

00:13:23.280 Enjoy.

00:13:23.760 If you can tell us what are the anti-sodomy laws in Kenya, because we've heard all sorts

00:13:33.540 of stories of, you know, the horror of such things.

00:13:36.580 And what is it actually?

00:13:37.800 What is it really on the books?

00:13:38.780 So the Commonwealth countries in Africa all have similar anti-sodomy legislation, because

00:13:46.940 we passed from model statutes.

00:13:50.400 And fundamentally, our anti-sodomy laws are found in the Penal Code, and they prohibit three 1.00

00:13:56.900 things, which I can call sodomy, buggery, and bestiality, in the same provision. 0.75

00:14:05.220 So it basically means anyone who engages in anal sex, it is considered a criminal offense, 0.98

00:14:13.800 and anyone who engages in bestiality. 0.99

00:14:17.400 So anal sex is prohibited. 1.00

00:14:19.520 That is buggery. 1.00

00:14:20.360 It matters not whether it is man on man or man on woman. 0.98

00:14:26.780 And then sodomy is man on man.

00:14:30.300 So that is a prohibition.

00:14:32.200 It is found in the Penal Code.

00:14:34.540 Occasionally, there are few people who are prosecuted in the magistrate's courts, not many.

00:14:40.580 But the effect of those sodomy laws, which are in Kenya and in many other countries in

00:14:45.020 Africa, is that people who engage in sodomy do it like below the scene. 0.95

00:14:52.840 They don't come out publicly about it, because if you do it in a public way, if you try to

00:14:59.460 promote homosexuality, then you can fall afoul of the law. 0.98

00:15:04.720 So that is the sodomy law in Kenya.

00:15:06.580 Okay, so the impression that you get in the West is that these are death penalty, and they 0.89

00:15:14.840 are only focused on gays.

00:15:16.160 So what you're saying is, so even this behavior from man to woman is prohibited by the law.

00:15:25.060 When I was in Uganda speaking, I understood also that it affects things like pornography

00:15:32.300 and things like that, all the kind of sexual perversions that would harm the state.

00:15:40.340 Is that the case here in Kenya as well?

00:15:41.940 So what happened in Uganda is that because there was a strong reaction against the gay lobby,

00:15:50.020 which was promoting the homosexual agenda, in Uganda, they tried to pass an additional

00:15:56.820 law to strengthen the old law that was passed during the colonial period, which has been

00:16:04.360 retained in our books, even post-colonial, because Kenyans and most people in Africa are

00:16:09.700 opposed to sodomy.

00:16:11.220 So in Uganda, they passed a new law, and that law caused a lot of reaction in the West, and

00:16:20.560 that new law has therefore added supplemental issues.

00:16:23.940 In Kenya, what happens is that we have our laws against morality in two legal provisions.

00:16:31.980 One is the penal code, which has the laws against homosexuality and a few other sexual

00:16:38.700 perversions.

00:16:39.780 And then we have the Sexual Offenses Act. 0.80

00:16:42.140 So the Sexual Offenses Act deals with majority of the sexual offenses.

00:16:46.260 It did not interfere with the laws on homosexuality, which remain in our penal code.

00:16:51.840 But under our Sexual Offenses Act, of course, things like prostitution, sexual trafficking,

00:16:58.240 even sexual harassment are criminalized in our Sexual Offenses Act.

00:17:02.740 So there was a case that was filed in the High Court in Kenya to declare the provisions of

00:17:09.100 our law that prohibit sodomy to be unconstitutional.

00:17:13.880 Because in Kenya, we enacted a new constitution in 2010, and the constitution of Kenya has the

00:17:21.660 standard anti-discrimination clause, which says we shall not discriminate on the ground

00:17:27.000 of sex, race, ethnicity, and so on.

00:17:30.580 And one of the arguments that was used is that the anti-sodomy laws were against our constitution.

00:17:37.040 And there was an attempt by the petitioners to make reference to the South African law.

00:17:43.460 Because in South Africa, the constitution prohibits discrimination on the ground of sexual

00:17:50.200 orientation.

00:17:51.660 I was representing Kenya Christian Professionals Forum in that case.

00:17:55.580 And we successfully argued before the High Court in Kenya that our constitutional provision on

00:18:02.680 anti-discrimination does not include sexual orientation as a ground.

00:18:08.020 And we even produced evidence before the court that in 2010, 2009, 2010, there is very strong

00:18:15.380 anti-homosexuality sentiment in the Kenyan public, among the Kenyan public.

00:18:22.460 And it was very deliberate that the Kenyan constitution did not include that as a ground upon which you

00:18:30.620 cannot discriminate.

00:18:31.600 In fact, in a different provision of our constitution, which deals with marriage, there's a specific

00:18:38.840 provision that says marriage is between a man and a woman of the opposite sex.

00:18:45.100 So we entrenched in our constitution a heterosexual marriage. 0.85

00:18:49.480 And that was a way of sending a signal that we do not support sodomitical relationships of any kind.

00:18:57.840 So the High Court agreed with this argument and reaffirmed the holding that our constitutional

00:19:04.380 prohibition of anti-sodomy is valid.

00:19:08.660 The laws do not enact death penalty.

00:19:11.760 It is just a maximum criminal penalty could be imprisonment maximum for seven years.

00:19:19.080 But seldom would you find someone being imprisoned.

00:19:21.720 Ordinarily, those who are found guilty are fined.

00:19:25.280 And that is the end of the story.

00:19:26.820 But the provision is there and it is required to kind of like push back against the gay lobby,

00:19:37.920 which otherwise would be in our face as they're in the face of people in the West, in all kinds 0.99

00:19:43.920 of areas.

00:19:44.880 What is that pressure that you've seen from the West in terms, in order to get Africa to

00:19:51.660 succumb to the same agenda, which is totally overrun in the West?

00:19:54.500 So the first is financial pressure.

00:19:57.780 There's financial pressure when Tony Blair was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom,

00:20:02.500 when Bill Clinton was the President of the United States.

00:20:05.460 And from that time, which is the 1990s, there's been very strong financial pressure.

00:20:10.860 African countries normally receive aid from the West, foreign aid of one kind or the other.

00:20:17.440 And so the aid would be attached to a string of conditions, including changing the laws on

00:20:22.660 homosexuality. 0.78

00:20:23.620 There is ideological pressure from various sources, because those who are saying change

00:20:29.680 your laws believe that we should change our laws.

00:20:32.720 Even to bring in investment, sometimes they put this kind of pressure on us.

00:20:36.880 When African countries go to international human rights committees to present their reports,

00:20:43.260 which are presented maybe every five years or every seven years or every three years, they

00:20:47.800 keep being told that these laws are backward, that you need to be open to people who are

00:20:52.860 same-sex, you need to allow civil unions to consider same-sex marriage, do not retain these anti-sodomy

00:21:01.980 laws in your books.

00:21:03.020 So that pressure is there of all kinds, and it is a pressure of trying to bash the African

00:21:09.240 countries that have these laws.

00:21:10.700 The pressure comes in all shapes and sizes.

00:21:14.700 But we have seen that the African countries have, on many occasions, pushed back and said

00:21:19.780 this is a form of cultural imperialism, where you are trying to impose a culture that has

00:21:26.440 settled and taken root in the West here, even though our people have different sentiments.

00:21:32.680 Of course, there is also the pressure through Hollywood and the media of trying to normalize

00:21:38.080 this kind of behavior or practice.

00:21:41.320 And that pressure that comes through Hollywood is more effective, because it is more insidious.

00:21:46.740 It comes through forms of communication and so on, to make people more comfortable with

00:21:53.400 this lifestyle, and definitely the attitudes to homosexuality have begun changing among

00:22:00.620 the youth and those who are more educated, because they are more accepting of this kind

00:22:07.620 of thing.

00:22:08.040 They're saying, well, it's happening in the West.

00:22:09.640 What is so bad about it?

00:22:11.020 But still, when we did an opinion survey a few years back, we found that the opposition

00:22:19.680 to sodomy or homosexuality was well above 95%. 0.54

00:22:24.980 It was maybe about 97% in Kenya.

00:22:27.720 This was a few years ago.

00:22:28.900 So I guess every year, maybe they keep changing the attitudes by 1% or 2% at a time.

00:22:36.920 And so it is a question of determining where the culture will go.

00:22:41.500 But for right now, our laws align to the cultural opinions of the majority, super majority of Kenyans.

00:22:49.060 One of the things that just happened on January 25th, Pope Francis gave an interview in which

00:22:57.080 he said that he actually specifically referred to the bishops of Africa needing a conversion

00:23:05.540 because they are backing these anti-sodomy laws.

00:23:08.400 He talked about how even the church must sort of fight these laws.

00:23:12.500 You know, that was pretty severe.

00:23:13.880 He then went to Africa and just returned from Africa.

00:23:19.360 And on his return flight, he had this statement again.

00:23:23.120 He was asked by one of the reporters.

00:23:25.400 But this one was even, it was very interesting because it had Justin Welby, the head of the,

00:23:31.740 or at least the lead bishop of the Anglican Church, as well as the head of the Church of Scotland.

00:23:37.260 Now, both those churches allow for, in the case of the Church of Scotland, homosexual marriages 0.94

00:23:42.780 in their churches, so-called marriages, of course.

00:23:45.460 But also, the head of the Church of England allows for blessings of homosexual unions in their churches. 0.66

00:23:53.100 And so those are very disparate places from where the Catholic Church is or ever could be.

00:23:57.500 However, in the context of a joint press conference, in-air press conference, Pope Francis was asked about

00:24:03.680 and talked about, again, such laws being an injustice, again, about the need to fight them.

00:24:11.840 Didn't repeat, thanks be to God, the need for the African bishops to convert. 0.99

00:24:15.300 But he's just coming from there and making this statement.

00:24:19.720 Didn't say it while he was on the ground, as far as I could understand.

00:24:23.020 But what do you make of that?

00:24:25.840 And because, as far as I can see, the Catholic bishops in Africa provide an amazing support

00:24:34.380 for the truths, the Christian truths on the family, which happen to be the same as the African values on the family.

00:24:44.220 And so, here we are in a situation of grave confusion.

00:24:47.780 What do you make of what was said?

00:24:49.060 First of all, I'm aware that the Catechism of the Catholic Church has a point that talks about not discriminating to people

00:24:59.400 because of same-sex attraction or orientation.

00:25:03.660 And I'm also aware that the Catholic Church tends to distinguish between same-sex orientation or attraction.

00:25:13.420 They even use a phrase, deep-seated, same-sex attraction, and same-sex behavior.

00:25:19.840 And same-sex orientation or attraction could be a condition.

00:25:23.460 And same-sex behavior is an action. 1.00

00:25:27.100 And it is the behavior that could either be a sin or a crime.

00:25:31.600 So that my understanding has always been that when there's discussion about non-discrimination,

00:25:38.120 it means if somebody requires health care, don't deny them health care because of one thing or the other.

00:25:43.000 For me, it's very clear that non-discrimination means that even if somebody has just committed murder,

00:25:50.100 they have just committed rape, they have committed robbery, violence, and they are injured,

00:25:54.780 they need health care, they should be given health care.

00:25:57.060 If they need education, they should be given education.

00:26:00.760 If they need shelter, they should be given shelter.

00:26:02.800 It doesn't mean that non-discrimination is the same thing as non-penalization.

00:26:09.120 Because if you are to use that logic, it would mean you cannot have any penal statute

00:26:13.640 because then you'd be accused of discriminating against someone and going against their human dignity.

00:26:21.360 Now, the second point I'd like to make is that it is not only Pope Francis, I'm aware, in the Vatican

00:26:28.480 and in the last, say, 30 years in the tradition of the Catholic Church,

00:26:32.780 who has expressed a kind of like an opinion as to the prudential decision of having anti-sodomy laws in the statute books.

00:26:44.700 And I think he's entitled to express his view as a prudential matter, and he's not the first one.

00:26:53.800 I think there must even have been one of the previous popes who may have expressed something,

00:26:57.740 or at least one of the heads of one of the congregations, and there's a document or a statement that was issued

00:27:04.720 about what is the more prudential cause of action in this issue.

00:27:10.460 My feeling, though, is that this is a matter that relates to political prudence as opposed to doctrine.

00:27:19.200 Doctrine are matters where all Catholics, for example, are required to hold.

00:27:23.560 When there's a teaching either that is ex cathedra by the Pope or a long-held kind of like position

00:27:30.940 with a sensus fide or the sense of the faithful.

00:27:34.440 And then there's the prudential matters where you apply the teaching of the Church to specific situations.

00:27:41.360 And I would say that in the West, where homosexuality as a practice or a way of life has become very widespread,

00:27:50.000 it may be the prudential outcome is to depenalize or to decriminalize.

00:27:56.400 In the same way, in Africa, polygamy is very widespread, and it is not widespread in the West.

00:28:02.820 And all over Africa, polygamy is legal. 0.85

00:28:06.900 So if you're in the West, you're not advocate for legalization of polygamy.

00:28:11.960 So it's a prudential decision that, look, this thing goes against the dignity of women. 1.00

00:28:17.480 Let's not have polygamy legal in the West. 0.87

00:28:19.980 And it is actually very good for the West.

00:28:22.540 And in Africa, we've said this thing of sodomy goes against the dignity of the human person. 1.00

00:28:27.740 Let's not have it legal.

00:28:29.300 And if there were 10% of the people in the country who are practicing sodomy,

00:28:33.820 then it becomes impractical to keep it criminal because it means you have to lock up 10% of the population.

00:28:39.760 But for as long as those who are practicing this thing are kept to a manageable number,

00:28:46.000 it is possible for the bishops and even well-meaning Catholics in Africa to say that,

00:28:51.920 no, we think this law serves a useful public purpose.

00:28:56.740 So that in conclusion, what I would say is that the Pope is acting with good faith and good intentions

00:29:04.280 based on his experience in Latin America and in Europe.

00:29:08.700 It would be so great if he gave an ear to the bishops and the Catholics in Africa to explain to him

00:29:17.940 why this is a prudential determination that they have made,

00:29:23.620 that having these laws in the books is actually for the good of our society.

00:29:29.280 And of course, the Catholic Church has always been conscious of the fact that

00:29:33.320 the application of the doctrine to different cultures requires a manifestation of cultural sensitivities,

00:29:41.120 inculturation.

00:29:42.080 In Africa in 1994, we had an African synod where the bishops were reflecting on how to

00:29:47.660 inculturate the faith within the continent.

00:29:50.940 And that is how the missionaries were successful when they came to preach the faith in Africa

00:29:55.600 because they didn't just ask us to reject all of our cultural traditions.

00:30:01.280 They said, the ones that are clearly opposed to the faith, you may need to change them.

00:30:06.260 That's why those who became Christian rejected polygamy, even though others are still engaged in polygamy.

00:30:12.600 But if the kind of like the strong hammer of getting rid of all our cultural traditions is applied,

00:30:23.180 it might damage actually the acceptance of the faith.

00:30:26.180 So I think that is an area which would have been wiser, in my view, as a Christian, 0.66

00:30:33.280 if the Pope had an opportunity to listen to the Catholic bishops or the Christians,

00:30:41.480 including the Catholic Christians in Africa, to understand why are our laws the way they are. 0.84

00:30:47.520 I'll also say something else, which I can go beyond that and say that myself, I've studied law,

00:30:53.960 I've studied philosophy, I've studied the issue of the slippery slope.

00:30:59.140 I have read quite a bit the different arguments on this issue of sodomy.

00:31:05.040 And I'm convinced that if one acknowledges and recognizes that you cannot criminalize sodomy,

00:31:19.580 if you accept that as a point that is not open to discussion,

00:31:24.300 there is unfortunately no other point where you can logically put a stop to the expansion of the philosophy

00:31:35.340 and the practice of sodomy throughout the society.

00:31:40.500 And that is why when in 1994, I think it was 1994, 1993,

00:31:45.100 Bill Clinton supported the Defense of Marriage Act in the U.S.,

00:31:50.500 it was considered a consensus position of both liberals and conservatives

00:31:55.300 that marriage is for a man, one man, and one woman, 0.82

00:32:00.400 that will allow same-sex relations, but we can defend marriage.

00:32:05.800 But what happened over the last 20, 25 years is that it has been proven that fundamentally you can't.

00:32:13.140 The moment you allow homosexuality to flourish in the society, 1.00

00:32:17.880 there is nothing that you can reserve for heterosexuals, 0.99

00:32:21.980 marriage or anything else that you consider good for the society

00:32:25.460 without those who are homosexual also demanding the same treatment. 0.62

00:32:30.200 So that it's like the issue of abortion.

00:32:33.600 If you don't accept that life begins at conception,

00:32:36.760 there is no other place where you can make a strong and solid argument

00:32:40.620 that life begins at this point.

00:32:43.480 So the only fundamental way you can defend life is by asserting life begins at conception.

00:32:49.320 The only fundamental way you can protect society

00:32:52.000 against the continued encroachment of homosexuality 1.00

00:32:56.120 is to say that homosexuality is fundamentally harmful to the good of society.

00:33:01.560 And if society decides to criminalize, they are entitled to do it.

00:33:05.740 One of the ways in which the West lost the battle on the family issue was over the issue of love.

00:33:16.280 In fact, they said, you know, these two guys love one another.

00:33:19.820 How come you don't let them love one another?

00:33:22.440 They are, you know, you say marriage is a good thing.

00:33:26.300 We agree. Marriage is a good thing. We want it.

00:33:28.600 What's your response to that?

00:33:31.220 I always say that the problem fundamentally began in 1867, 155 years ago,

00:33:39.280 when John Stuart Mill wrote that pamphlet or book, booklet on liberty,

00:33:45.940 and came up with this idea that what do people do alone in private?

00:33:53.420 What is the business of the state getting involved in that issue?

00:33:57.440 It doesn't harm anyone else.

00:33:59.320 If they want to harm themselves, that's their business.

00:34:02.580 So that philosophy of John Stuart Mill is what led to the thinking of the Wolfenden Committee

00:34:10.000 in the United Kingdom in the 1950s,

00:34:14.460 is what led to the thinking in the United States Supreme Court

00:34:18.380 when they legalized homosexuality through various decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:34:24.740 And that logic is that what people do alone in private doesn't hurt you.

00:34:31.660 It's not your business.

00:34:33.260 And I think the history of the West over the last 50 years has proven John Stuart Mill wrong.

00:34:39.620 It's actually a fact now demonstrable that what two people do when they lock the bedroom alone in their room

00:34:47.320 affects the rest of society.

00:34:49.300 And you see, for us in Africa, we have a very strong understanding of the interconnection between the person and community.

00:34:58.180 In fact, the concept of Ubuntu, which is part of African philosophy and jurisprudence,

00:35:04.140 can be summarized with that phrase that I am because we are, and we are because I am.

00:35:12.240 So I may do something privately in my own house, even in my thoughts, and it affects the whole community.

00:35:18.440 So it is because of that unconscious acceptance of John Stuart Mill philosophy

00:35:24.160 that people feel that when two people do their thing in private, even if it's a sin,

00:35:30.720 even if it is something that might be harmful to themselves,

00:35:33.560 the rest of society has no business getting involved unless there's physical violence.

00:35:38.520 That's why even in the West, they only attempt to kind of like push back against homosexualities 1.00

00:35:45.280 to say that it is affecting children.

00:35:48.000 It's like the boundary has been put at when you are below 18, we have a right to defend you.

00:35:54.220 But the truth is that it affects adults as well as children.

00:35:57.500 And grooming can be done of adults as well as children.

00:36:00.200 So for us in Africa, we understand that that source of corruption that may start with two people in private

00:36:05.540 affects the rest of society.

00:36:07.000 So what is happening in the West is that those two people in private, once they do their deed,

00:36:12.700 they start looking for other partners.

00:36:14.940 And the more partners they can get, the better.

00:36:17.480 They feel they are being discriminated against.

00:36:19.600 They want to talk about their life story.

00:36:21.240 They want to explain it to children.

00:36:22.760 They want to change the curriculum.

00:36:23.980 They want to change everything.

00:36:25.440 So there is a continuous crisis because in our view in Africa,

00:36:29.280 the West feels that you can't interfere with what a person decides to do unless you can show directly

00:36:38.640 a physical injury to yourself.

00:36:42.680 That is John Stuart Mill.

00:36:44.120 As we have a different philosophy, and my hope is that the time will come when this Ubuntu philosophy,

00:36:50.280 which is very deep and profound, I think it is a way of kind of like combining the genius of the West,

00:36:55.240 which is the liberal genius about the greatness of the individual,

00:37:00.160 and the genius of the East, which tends to focus on the community.

00:37:04.300 Us in Africa, we focus on harmonizing the two.

00:37:06.920 We recognize the power of the individual, which has driven the progress in the West, capitalism, all those things.

00:37:14.440 And you also recognize that the individual is powerful because they are part of a community.

00:37:19.200 And the individual cannot be allowed to subvert the common good just because they say that there's no clear connection.

00:37:28.040 The connection has been established.

00:37:49.200 Connect with us on social media so that you can stay up to date with all the latest life, family, faith, and freedom news.

00:37:55.180 Thanks for watching, and may God bless you.

The John-Henry Westen Show - March 01, 2023

Anti-LGBT Laws and Values Keep Kenya Proudly Pro-Family

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