Anti-LGBT Laws and Values Keep Kenya Proudly Pro-Family
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Summary
In the wake of Pope Francis' recent visit to Africa, many have wondered if the African bishops need to convert on the matter of anti-sodomy laws and the need for the Church to recognize same-sex unions. In this episode, Cardinal John Henry Weston explains why this is not the case, and why the bishops in Africa stand firm in their defense of traditional family values.
Transcript
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Hey, LifeSafe friends, we are back in North America.
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You know, we went to Africa with the hopes of getting to the last place on earth where
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We were there where sexual morality is under fierce attack from the West, which is trying
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to force the poorest of the poor in line with the woke agenda.
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We visited Uganda and Kenya, where Christians form the majority of the population, where
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the spiritual leadership stands strong in its defense of the traditional family values
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and where the government, too, recognizes the harm to society from contravening God's
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So when we went to Africa, it was just as Pope Francis was suggesting that the African bishops
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need a conversion on the matter of anti-sodomy laws.
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He suggested that the laws involve the death penalty and that it is there a crime to have
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I spoke with legal experts about the laws around homosexuality there, but I got to one legal
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expert, one lawyer, who's one of the most impressive lawyers that I've ever met.
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I guarantee you that you are about to learn a ton in this next interview.
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You will learn not only the actual law in Africa, but also their origin and the philosophical
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roots of the loss in the West of the war against the family.
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This is the interview Pope Francis should have had before commenting on anti-sodomy laws and
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You're going to want to stay tuned for this one.
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Let's begin as you always do with the sign of the cross.
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In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
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So last week, we showed you the strong stance of the African bishops, standing firm in support
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of legislation protecting the family, in support of anti-sodomy laws.
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They are ready, they said, to suffer, even martyrdom, to hold true to God's truth on the family.
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If we are tasteless as a church, where do we go?
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Even if it means martyrdom, that we be ready and firm to stand for it.
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They know that they face the superpowers of the world and are ready to stick to the truth,
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But the pressure from heretical factions in the church is also strong.
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And I truly wondered when I went there if they would be able to survive that combined pressure
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First off, I was told that 95% of the people in the pews fully support the pro-family teachings
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And our gracious hosts in Africa reminded me, too, that the Anglican bishops in Africa have
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withstood the same kind of pressure from the Anglican leadership in the West to cave in
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And they have there in Africa nevertheless stood firm for the last 30 years.
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I spoke also with school officials and pro-life activists in Africa, both about the LGBT agenda
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being pushed and what they are doing to fight it.
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But before we get there, I just had to address the interview that Pope Francis gave while leaving
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Africa, where he did that joint press conference with the bishops who lead the pro-LGBT churches
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During that in-flight press conference, Pope Francis actually suggested, believe it or not,
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that Pope Benedict XVI supported Pope Francis' take on homosexual civil unions.
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However, I can assure you from Benedict's own writings that it is clear that Pope Benedict
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opposed homosexual civil unions, as does the Church.
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In 2003, the Vatican document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, and this is from Pope
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Benedict while he was still cardinal under Pope John Paul II.
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He was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, and the Congregation released
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a document in 2003 called Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions
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And I'll quote from that document to show exactly what the mind of Pope Benedict of Cardinal
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When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first
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time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition
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To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral, end quote.
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As we know, gravely immoral means a mortal sin.
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Now, this is interesting because the document was approved by St. Pope John Paul II and ordered
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June 3rd is the feast day of the Ugandan martyrs.
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And if you're wondering who those were, go look at the show from last week where we detailed
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the Ugandan martyrs who withstood the attempts of the king at the time to enter into homosexual
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You got to check out the link to the full document from the Congregation for the Doctrine
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of Faith headed up at the time by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who then, of course, became
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What is truly alarming about all this is that there was so little pushback from church authorities
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regarding the statements by Pope Francis, which contravene constant church teaching, unchangeable
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There was New York theologian Father Gerald Murray, who everybody knows from EWTN.
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He spoke on this issue at on Raymond Royer's show on EWTN.
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The misuse of the sexual organs to seek venereal pleasure in a way that's not natural intercourse
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It's clearly taught in the Bible and the natural law.
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Now, laws against sodomy are designed to warn people not to commit that sin and to protect
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society, where if that sin were tolerated, it might become more widespread.
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You know, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible is a warning to us.
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Now, the Pope, unfortunately, is becoming an advocate of decriminalization of anti-sodomy
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And it's hard to believe that we would say that.
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In that same interview, he quotes, he's quoted as saying that, you know, he knows African
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He said they have to undergo a process of conversion.
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The people have to undergo conversion of those who want to commit sodomy, not the bishops
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who are telling them this is a sin, it's wrong, and the state should not legitimize it.
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So, you know, what is the basis where you would decriminalize sodomy?
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Now, what about people who engage in prostitution?
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They're going to say, well, I don't like being stigmatized by laws that criminalize
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People might say, well, that's consensual among adults.
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You know, I've worked with courage over the years.
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And one of the most discouraging things that courage members talk about is when the hierarchy
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doesn't teach the truth in a clear and understandable way.
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I mean, who's going to be happy with this decriminalization of sodomy?
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It's not that people who support church teaching.
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The Pope, if anything, should be saying laws that lead people into sin should never become
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We heard from Tyler, Texas Bishop Joseph Strickland.
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He tweeted about a video of a certain priest by the name of Father Jason Charon.
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Father Jason is known, of course, to us at LifeSite, and he does amazing work, very courageous.
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And Father Charon called out Pope Francis personally.
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Bishop Strickland, in his tweet, pointing out or pointing to the video response from Father
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This is the words of Bishop Strickland commenting on what Father Jason Charon said.
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Those were the words, again, of Bishop Joseph Strickland regarding what Father Jason Charon
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And I want you to watch a couple of clips from Father Charon's video, and you'll see
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I say this to, you know, my father in Christ, my naked father in Christ, maybe like a drunken
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For the sake of your own dignity, the dignity of your office, is to repent from this insanity,
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Pope Francis, and preach the gospel, calling all people to repentance.
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Yet what we have here is the Holy Father, Pope Francis, going into these nations and speaking
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not about the gospel so much as about urging these people to change their code of civil law
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What I truly wish is that the Pope would have learned from the Africans about their rationale
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Why the insistence on only accepting the so-called wisdom of the West?
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Is there no room in the Pope's heart for the truth coming from Africa?
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I thought it's all about listening to indigenous peoples.
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This most impressive lawyer is named Charles Kanjama.
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And let me introduce, well, in fact, let him introduce himself.
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I'm an advocate of the High Court of Kenya, which means I'm a lawyer.
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I'm also a senior counsel, which means I've been recognized as a lawyer who has been practicing
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I happen to currently also be the chair of the Kenya Christian Professionals Forum, which
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is an ecumenical group that brings together Christians from different denominations, Catholics,
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evangelicals, and Protestants, and different professional groups.
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And we advocate for similar values in the area of life, family, and religious freedom.
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I'm also a managing partner of MUMA and Kanjama Advocates, which is this law firm where we are today.
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And now I want you to strap in and get ready to learn.
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This is the lesson Pope Francis and all of the West needs from Africa.
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If you can tell us what are the anti-sodomy laws in Kenya, because we've heard all sorts
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of stories of, you know, the horror of such things.
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So the Commonwealth countries in Africa all have similar anti-sodomy legislation, because
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And fundamentally, our anti-sodomy laws are found in the Penal Code, and they prohibit three
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things, which I can call sodomy, buggery, and bestiality, in the same provision.
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So it basically means anyone who engages in anal sex, it is considered a criminal offense,
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It matters not whether it is man on man or man on woman.
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Occasionally, there are few people who are prosecuted in the magistrate's courts, not many.
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But the effect of those sodomy laws, which are in Kenya and in many other countries in
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Africa, is that people who engage in sodomy do it like below the scene.
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They don't come out publicly about it, because if you do it in a public way, if you try to
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promote homosexuality, then you can fall afoul of the law.
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Okay, so the impression that you get in the West is that these are death penalty, and they
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So what you're saying is, so even this behavior from man to woman is prohibited by the law.
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When I was in Uganda speaking, I understood also that it affects things like pornography
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and things like that, all the kind of sexual perversions that would harm the state.
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So what happened in Uganda is that because there was a strong reaction against the gay lobby,
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which was promoting the homosexual agenda, in Uganda, they tried to pass an additional
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law to strengthen the old law that was passed during the colonial period, which has been
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retained in our books, even post-colonial, because Kenyans and most people in Africa are
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So in Uganda, they passed a new law, and that law caused a lot of reaction in the West, and
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that new law has therefore added supplemental issues.
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In Kenya, what happens is that we have our laws against morality in two legal provisions.
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One is the penal code, which has the laws against homosexuality and a few other sexual
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So the Sexual Offenses Act deals with majority of the sexual offenses.
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It did not interfere with the laws on homosexuality, which remain in our penal code.
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But under our Sexual Offenses Act, of course, things like prostitution, sexual trafficking,
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even sexual harassment are criminalized in our Sexual Offenses Act.
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So there was a case that was filed in the High Court in Kenya to declare the provisions of
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our law that prohibit sodomy to be unconstitutional.
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Because in Kenya, we enacted a new constitution in 2010, and the constitution of Kenya has the
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standard anti-discrimination clause, which says we shall not discriminate on the ground
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And one of the arguments that was used is that the anti-sodomy laws were against our constitution.
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And there was an attempt by the petitioners to make reference to the South African law.
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Because in South Africa, the constitution prohibits discrimination on the ground of sexual
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I was representing Kenya Christian Professionals Forum in that case.
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And we successfully argued before the High Court in Kenya that our constitutional provision on
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anti-discrimination does not include sexual orientation as a ground.
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And we even produced evidence before the court that in 2010, 2009, 2010, there is very strong
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anti-homosexuality sentiment in the Kenyan public, among the Kenyan public.
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And it was very deliberate that the Kenyan constitution did not include that as a ground upon which you
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In fact, in a different provision of our constitution, which deals with marriage, there's a specific
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provision that says marriage is between a man and a woman of the opposite sex.
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So we entrenched in our constitution a heterosexual marriage.
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And that was a way of sending a signal that we do not support sodomitical relationships of any kind.
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So the High Court agreed with this argument and reaffirmed the holding that our constitutional
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It is just a maximum criminal penalty could be imprisonment maximum for seven years.
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But seldom would you find someone being imprisoned.
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Ordinarily, those who are found guilty are fined.
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But the provision is there and it is required to kind of like push back against the gay lobby,
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which otherwise would be in our face as they're in the face of people in the West, in all kinds
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What is that pressure that you've seen from the West in terms, in order to get Africa to
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succumb to the same agenda, which is totally overrun in the West?
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There's financial pressure when Tony Blair was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom,
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when Bill Clinton was the President of the United States.
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And from that time, which is the 1990s, there's been very strong financial pressure.
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African countries normally receive aid from the West, foreign aid of one kind or the other.
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And so the aid would be attached to a string of conditions, including changing the laws on
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There is ideological pressure from various sources, because those who are saying change
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your laws believe that we should change our laws.
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Even to bring in investment, sometimes they put this kind of pressure on us.
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When African countries go to international human rights committees to present their reports,
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which are presented maybe every five years or every seven years or every three years, they
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keep being told that these laws are backward, that you need to be open to people who are
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same-sex, you need to allow civil unions to consider same-sex marriage, do not retain these anti-sodomy
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So that pressure is there of all kinds, and it is a pressure of trying to bash the African
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But we have seen that the African countries have, on many occasions, pushed back and said
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this is a form of cultural imperialism, where you are trying to impose a culture that has
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settled and taken root in the West here, even though our people have different sentiments.
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Of course, there is also the pressure through Hollywood and the media of trying to normalize
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And that pressure that comes through Hollywood is more effective, because it is more insidious.
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It comes through forms of communication and so on, to make people more comfortable with
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this lifestyle, and definitely the attitudes to homosexuality have begun changing among
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the youth and those who are more educated, because they are more accepting of this kind
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They're saying, well, it's happening in the West.
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But still, when we did an opinion survey a few years back, we found that the opposition
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So I guess every year, maybe they keep changing the attitudes by 1% or 2% at a time.
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And so it is a question of determining where the culture will go.
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But for right now, our laws align to the cultural opinions of the majority, super majority of Kenyans.
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One of the things that just happened on January 25th, Pope Francis gave an interview in which
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he said that he actually specifically referred to the bishops of Africa needing a conversion
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because they are backing these anti-sodomy laws.
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He talked about how even the church must sort of fight these laws.
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He then went to Africa and just returned from Africa.
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And on his return flight, he had this statement again.
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But this one was even, it was very interesting because it had Justin Welby, the head of the,
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or at least the lead bishop of the Anglican Church, as well as the head of the Church of Scotland.
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Now, both those churches allow for, in the case of the Church of Scotland, homosexual marriages
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in their churches, so-called marriages, of course.
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But also, the head of the Church of England allows for blessings of homosexual unions in their churches.
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And so those are very disparate places from where the Catholic Church is or ever could be.
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However, in the context of a joint press conference, in-air press conference, Pope Francis was asked about
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and talked about, again, such laws being an injustice, again, about the need to fight them.
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Didn't repeat, thanks be to God, the need for the African bishops to convert.
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But he's just coming from there and making this statement.
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Didn't say it while he was on the ground, as far as I could understand.
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And because, as far as I can see, the Catholic bishops in Africa provide an amazing support
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for the truths, the Christian truths on the family, which happen to be the same as the African values on the family.
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And so, here we are in a situation of grave confusion.
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First of all, I'm aware that the Catechism of the Catholic Church has a point that talks about not discriminating to people
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And I'm also aware that the Catholic Church tends to distinguish between same-sex orientation or attraction.
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They even use a phrase, deep-seated, same-sex attraction, and same-sex behavior.
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And same-sex orientation or attraction could be a condition.
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And it is the behavior that could either be a sin or a crime.
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So that my understanding has always been that when there's discussion about non-discrimination,
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it means if somebody requires health care, don't deny them health care because of one thing or the other.
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For me, it's very clear that non-discrimination means that even if somebody has just committed murder,
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they have just committed rape, they have committed robbery, violence, and they are injured,
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they need health care, they should be given health care.
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If they need education, they should be given education.
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If they need shelter, they should be given shelter.
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It doesn't mean that non-discrimination is the same thing as non-penalization.
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Because if you are to use that logic, it would mean you cannot have any penal statute
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because then you'd be accused of discriminating against someone and going against their human dignity.
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Now, the second point I'd like to make is that it is not only Pope Francis, I'm aware, in the Vatican
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and in the last, say, 30 years in the tradition of the Catholic Church,
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who has expressed a kind of like an opinion as to the prudential decision of having anti-sodomy laws in the statute books.
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And I think he's entitled to express his view as a prudential matter, and he's not the first one.
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I think there must even have been one of the previous popes who may have expressed something,
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or at least one of the heads of one of the congregations, and there's a document or a statement that was issued
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about what is the more prudential cause of action in this issue.
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My feeling, though, is that this is a matter that relates to political prudence as opposed to doctrine.
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Doctrine are matters where all Catholics, for example, are required to hold.
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When there's a teaching either that is ex cathedra by the Pope or a long-held kind of like position
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with a sensus fide or the sense of the faithful.
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And then there's the prudential matters where you apply the teaching of the Church to specific situations.
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And I would say that in the West, where homosexuality as a practice or a way of life has become very widespread,
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it may be the prudential outcome is to depenalize or to decriminalize.
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In the same way, in Africa, polygamy is very widespread, and it is not widespread in the West.
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So if you're in the West, you're not advocate for legalization of polygamy.
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So it's a prudential decision that, look, this thing goes against the dignity of women.
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And in Africa, we've said this thing of sodomy goes against the dignity of the human person.
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And if there were 10% of the people in the country who are practicing sodomy,
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then it becomes impractical to keep it criminal because it means you have to lock up 10% of the population.
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But for as long as those who are practicing this thing are kept to a manageable number,
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it is possible for the bishops and even well-meaning Catholics in Africa to say that,
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no, we think this law serves a useful public purpose.
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So that in conclusion, what I would say is that the Pope is acting with good faith and good intentions
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based on his experience in Latin America and in Europe.
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It would be so great if he gave an ear to the bishops and the Catholics in Africa to explain to him
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why this is a prudential determination that they have made,
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that having these laws in the books is actually for the good of our society.
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And of course, the Catholic Church has always been conscious of the fact that
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the application of the doctrine to different cultures requires a manifestation of cultural sensitivities,
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In Africa in 1994, we had an African synod where the bishops were reflecting on how to
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And that is how the missionaries were successful when they came to preach the faith in Africa
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because they didn't just ask us to reject all of our cultural traditions.
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They said, the ones that are clearly opposed to the faith, you may need to change them.
00:30:06.260
That's why those who became Christian rejected polygamy, even though others are still engaged in polygamy.
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But if the kind of like the strong hammer of getting rid of all our cultural traditions is applied,
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it might damage actually the acceptance of the faith.
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So I think that is an area which would have been wiser, in my view, as a Christian,
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if the Pope had an opportunity to listen to the Catholic bishops or the Christians,
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including the Catholic Christians in Africa, to understand why are our laws the way they are.
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I'll also say something else, which I can go beyond that and say that myself, I've studied law,
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I've studied philosophy, I've studied the issue of the slippery slope.
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I have read quite a bit the different arguments on this issue of sodomy.
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And I'm convinced that if one acknowledges and recognizes that you cannot criminalize sodomy,
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if you accept that as a point that is not open to discussion,
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there is unfortunately no other point where you can logically put a stop to the expansion of the philosophy
00:31:35.340
and the practice of sodomy throughout the society.
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And that is why when in 1994, I think it was 1994, 1993,
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Bill Clinton supported the Defense of Marriage Act in the U.S.,
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it was considered a consensus position of both liberals and conservatives
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that marriage is for a man, one man, and one woman,
00:32:00.400
that will allow same-sex relations, but we can defend marriage.
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But what happened over the last 20, 25 years is that it has been proven that fundamentally you can't.
00:32:13.140
The moment you allow homosexuality to flourish in the society,
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there is nothing that you can reserve for heterosexuals,
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marriage or anything else that you consider good for the society
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without those who are homosexual also demanding the same treatment.
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If you don't accept that life begins at conception,
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there is no other place where you can make a strong and solid argument
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So the only fundamental way you can defend life is by asserting life begins at conception.
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The only fundamental way you can protect society
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against the continued encroachment of homosexuality
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is to say that homosexuality is fundamentally harmful to the good of society.
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And if society decides to criminalize, they are entitled to do it.
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One of the ways in which the West lost the battle on the family issue was over the issue of love.
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In fact, they said, you know, these two guys love one another.
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They are, you know, you say marriage is a good thing.
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We agree. Marriage is a good thing. We want it.
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I always say that the problem fundamentally began in 1867, 155 years ago,
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when John Stuart Mill wrote that pamphlet or book, booklet on liberty,
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and came up with this idea that what do people do alone in private?
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What is the business of the state getting involved in that issue?
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If they want to harm themselves, that's their business.
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So that philosophy of John Stuart Mill is what led to the thinking of the Wolfenden Committee
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is what led to the thinking in the United States Supreme Court
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when they legalized homosexuality through various decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court.
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And that logic is that what people do alone in private doesn't hurt you.
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And I think the history of the West over the last 50 years has proven John Stuart Mill wrong.
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It's actually a fact now demonstrable that what two people do when they lock the bedroom alone in their room
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And you see, for us in Africa, we have a very strong understanding of the interconnection between the person and community.
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In fact, the concept of Ubuntu, which is part of African philosophy and jurisprudence,
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can be summarized with that phrase that I am because we are, and we are because I am.
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So I may do something privately in my own house, even in my thoughts, and it affects the whole community.
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So it is because of that unconscious acceptance of John Stuart Mill philosophy
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that people feel that when two people do their thing in private, even if it's a sin,
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even if it is something that might be harmful to themselves,
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the rest of society has no business getting involved unless there's physical violence.
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That's why even in the West, they only attempt to kind of like push back against homosexualities
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It's like the boundary has been put at when you are below 18, we have a right to defend you.
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But the truth is that it affects adults as well as children.
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And grooming can be done of adults as well as children.
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So for us in Africa, we understand that that source of corruption that may start with two people in private
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So what is happening in the West is that those two people in private, once they do their deed,
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And the more partners they can get, the better.
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They feel they are being discriminated against.
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So there is a continuous crisis because in our view in Africa,
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the West feels that you can't interfere with what a person decides to do unless you can show directly
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As we have a different philosophy, and my hope is that the time will come when this Ubuntu philosophy,
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which is very deep and profound, I think it is a way of kind of like combining the genius of the West,
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which is the liberal genius about the greatness of the individual,
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and the genius of the East, which tends to focus on the community.
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We recognize the power of the individual, which has driven the progress in the West, capitalism, all those things.
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And you also recognize that the individual is powerful because they are part of a community.
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And the individual cannot be allowed to subvert the common good just because they say that there's no clear connection.
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