The John-Henry Westen Show - Battle of the Bishops： Latin Mass Wars Have Now Intensified

00:00:00.180 Why is there such a strong push to get rid of the old rite of the Mass, the old Latin Mass?

00:00:06.180 Why is Pope Francis and many of the high-ranking churchmen he has surrounded himself with

00:00:11.680 bent on stopping out a flourishing community of young people seeking to deepen their faith life

00:00:18.040 with a Mass that's the same one attended by the greatest saints the Church has ever known

00:00:23.540 for over a thousand years?

00:00:25.300 What is this hatred for a form of liturgy or worship that, from an outside perspective,

00:00:33.440 can only be seen as a, perhaps even a neat gimmick to revitalize a failing institution?

00:00:40.320 It's like the return of old Coke since new Coke was a sales disaster.

00:00:46.540 Well, the answer to this central question is contained in a Latin phrase,

00:00:53.640 Lex Arundi, Lex Credendi.

00:00:57.120 The law of prayer is the law of faith, or more loosely translated, how we pray is how we believe.

00:01:03.440 And that is the key to understanding the battle surrounding the Latin Mass.

00:01:09.720 Why are all the liberal prelates stacked up on one side of this debate?

00:01:14.020 Why the Pope, Cardinal Cupich, Cardinal Gregory, Cardinal Roach, Cardinal Farrell, Bishop John Stowe, and more?

00:01:22.540 Why are all the faithful Catholic prelates on the other side fighting for the retention of the traditional Latin Mass?

00:01:29.000 Cardinal Burke, Cardinal Serra, Cardinal Zen, Archbishop Vigano, Bishop Schneider, and more?

00:01:34.540 Well, there are all sorts of reasons, for sure.

00:01:38.640 But I wanted to highlight one reason that perhaps few think about.

00:01:43.700 It's at the heart of all the culture war.

00:01:48.240 All those liberal prelates that I mentioned would all be regarded as heretics in more Catholic times.

00:01:55.680 They opposed the Church's perennial teaching on homosexuality, for starters.

00:02:00.060 They also oppose the teaching against contraception.

00:02:04.420 They fight the Church's encouragement for large families.

00:02:07.580 They waver on the pro-life teachings, for instance, in their glorification of pro-abortion politicians

00:02:13.580 and the insistence on giving them Holy Communion.

00:02:16.780 They are the opposite in these respects from their faithful counterparts, also mentioned previously.

00:02:24.800 So, how does this play out, then, in terms of the traditional Latin Mass?

00:02:28.880 Well, you will find that attendees of the old Latin Mass reject all the new-fangled anti-Catholic

00:02:37.780 nouveau theology that these liberal prelates promote.

00:02:42.140 Check out this survey of Latin Mass Catholics compared to mainstream Catholics of the Novus Ordo

00:02:48.180 that we reported on at LifeSite in 2019.

00:02:51.980 The traditional Latin Mass national survey carried out by Father Donald Closter, who celebrated both the Novus Ordo Mass

00:03:00.720 and the traditional Mass for 20 years, he noticed big differences between the people attending the two different types of Masses.

00:03:09.040 So, he decided to do a survey of Latin Mass Catholics to see where they stood on key issues which were common to the surveys of

00:03:17.940 Catholics in the general public, carried out by major pollsters.

00:03:22.860 So, here are a few of the issues he looked at.

00:03:26.000 The approval of contraception.

00:03:28.440 The approval of abortion.

00:03:30.620 The approval of same-sex marriage.

00:03:34.900 And the results of this survey were astounding.

00:03:39.900 Pew, the big national pollster, found that 89% of nominal Catholics or of Novus Ordo Catholics approve contraception.

00:03:50.120 That's 89%.

00:03:51.420 You know what the number was among traditional Latin Mass Catholics surveyed?

00:03:56.400 2%.

00:03:57.080 89% of Novus Ordo Catholics approve of contraception.

00:04:02.120 2% among traditional Latin Mass Catholics.

00:04:05.620 That's an unreal difference.

00:04:08.240 Well, let's look at the next category.

00:04:10.640 Pew, again, Pew Research, found that 51% of Novus Ordo Catholics approve abortion.

00:04:17.120 Among traditional Latin Mass Catholics, it was 1%.

00:04:21.820 Also, Daily Wire found, in a massive survey that they did, they found that 67% of Novus Ordo Catholics approve of gay marriage.

00:04:32.700 And among traditional Latin Mass Catholics, it was 2%.

00:04:36.660 Those differences are astounding.

00:04:40.820 It is unreal.

00:04:42.160 Go check it out at LifeSite News for the full story.

00:04:44.380 Check out the research, how they did it, everything else.

00:04:46.320 But to me, it is no wonder that liberal prelates in the Church want to stomp out the traditional Latin Mass.

00:04:55.140 And I'm not the only one who sees this.

00:04:58.220 You don't even have to be Catholic at all to see this.

00:05:01.440 Perhaps an outside view is actually better to be able to see what's happening within.

00:05:06.440 Take, for instance, this piece from the New York Times, of all places, from last November.

00:05:12.240 Ruth Graham, who covers religion for the Times, wrote a piece called, and I quote,

00:05:17.580 Old Latin Mass, finds new American audience despite Pope's disapproval.

00:05:23.900 And here's what she said.

00:05:25.180 She said,

00:05:25.560 The Mass has sparked a sprawling proxy battle in the American Church over not just the songs and prayers,

00:05:33.300 but also the future of Catholicism and its role in culture and politics.

00:05:39.820 She added this, and I quote,

00:05:41.740 On one level, the split over the Old Mass represents a clash of priorities and power struggles in Church leadership.

00:05:50.960 In the pews and parishes, it is more complicated.

00:05:54.880 Many Catholics say they are attracted to the Mass for spiritual reasons,

00:05:59.200 bolstered by aesthetic and liturgical preferences, rather than by partisanship.

00:06:04.060 So, isn't that interesting?

00:06:08.280 Isn't it interesting that really the lineup of the battle for the Latin Mass between the old traditional Latin Mass,

00:06:16.640 at least allowance for it, and those wanting to stomp it out,

00:06:22.260 fall exactly along the same lines of the moral battle going on in the Church.

00:06:27.840 Of course, there's no real battle.

00:06:29.900 The Church's moral teachings are unchangeable.

00:06:32.600 Nonetheless, the battle in the Church follows exactly that same one.

00:06:39.560 Now, the faithful are fighting for the Latin Mass.

00:06:45.080 And there's lots of fighting going on.

00:06:46.820 We saw beautiful processions all over the world to ask the bishops to retain the Latin Mass.

00:06:54.600 We saw when they had, in Rome, a celebration of the Latin Mass,

00:06:58.120 a huge number, over a thousand Catholics were there to support the traditional Latin Mass.

00:07:03.600 But I want you to just check out this one thing.

00:07:06.480 When Traditiones Custodis was released, restricting the Latin Mass,

00:07:10.360 there were young people who spoke up.

00:07:13.360 There was this particular young woman who released this heartfelt plea to the bishops

00:07:20.760 to please not stomp out the Latin Mass.

00:07:23.340 You know what? Rather than me talking about it, you have a listen to her.

00:07:25.540 Being able to adore our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament,

00:07:31.100 to love Him, and to grow deeper in my faith because of the reverence shown to Him

00:07:36.000 was truly, like, life-changing for me.

00:07:38.680 When Traditiones Custodis was implemented in my diocese,

00:07:42.000 honestly, it was heartbreaking for me,

00:07:44.840 and it was devastating to my home parish.

00:07:46.680 Truly, from the bottom of my heart, I beg,

00:07:50.020 beg any bishop that is watching this,

00:07:52.820 recognize the suffering that Traditiones Custodis has caused.

00:07:57.280 God bless, and I really hope that it can be restored.

00:08:04.100 So, when these old men in mitres are crushing young people like that,

00:08:10.300 without the slightest remorse,

00:08:12.040 that is when you know God will act and it is the firm sentiment

00:08:18.480 of all the best priests, all the best bishops and cardinals that I know

00:08:22.300 that the Latin Mass will be restored.

00:08:25.940 And that's also the take of my next guest.

00:08:29.540 Dr. Peter Kwasniewski is a specialist in liturgy

00:08:33.420 who has written 20 books,

00:08:35.260 including his latest, The Once and Future Roman Rite.

00:08:39.540 This is The John Henry Weston Show.

00:08:41.540 Stay tuned.

00:08:42.040 Hello, LifeSite friends.

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00:10:13.380 Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, welcome back to the program.

00:10:19.860 Thank you, John Henry. It's always good to see you.

00:10:23.200 Let's begin, as we always do, with the sign of the cross.

00:10:25.800 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

00:10:32.540 So, Peter, your brand new book out,

00:10:35.280 The Once and Future Roman Rite, is very timely.

00:10:39.840 Let me start with just what's going on in the news right now,

00:10:44.220 because all over Rome, we're hearing these rumors.

00:10:48.000 And at first, it was just rumors on blogs, and we thought,

00:10:50.440 but then Robert Moynihan came out with a letter

00:10:53.840 that apparently spoke with one of the brothers or fathers

00:10:58.920 in one of these traditional orders,

00:11:00.540 who sort of seems to suggest, yes, it's true,

00:11:03.520 it's coming out April or May,

00:11:05.620 there will be a massive restriction on the Latin mass,

00:11:08.120 it's in the form of an apostolic constitution

00:11:10.940 that will basically bar the Latin mass

00:11:15.000 from all, you know, regular churches, from all parishes.

00:11:19.040 And sort of basically taking Traditiones Custodes,

00:11:24.340 the document, the moda proprio by Pope Francis,

00:11:27.220 to its sort of full extension,

00:11:29.880 or perhaps just another step along the way.

00:11:32.700 Love to get your opinion on that to start.

00:11:34.420 Sure. I do think that it's entirely possible

00:11:38.400 that such a document is in the works.

00:11:40.780 There are enough converging rumors to suggest

00:11:43.240 that it's at least on somebody's desk or on multiple desks.

00:11:46.900 We definitely know that there is a powerful

00:11:49.520 anti-Latin mass faction working in the Vatican.

00:11:53.780 Cardinal Roach is the main figure there,

00:11:58.300 but there's a whole host of St. Anselmians

00:12:01.000 who are kind of pushing this line

00:12:03.380 that the liturgical reform is a necessity,

00:12:06.460 is irreversible, is the best fruit of Vatican II,

00:12:09.680 et cetera, et cetera.

00:12:10.960 They've kind of pinned everything

00:12:12.900 onto the liturgical reform

00:12:14.420 in a way that's very strange.

00:12:16.340 It's ideological.

00:12:18.120 Because in fact, liturgical changes happen

00:12:20.800 throughout history.

00:12:21.560 There's nothing irreversible in that sense about it.

00:12:24.900 In fact, if anything's irreversible,

00:12:26.980 it would be the normative nature

00:12:29.640 of the tradition that we've received.

00:12:31.560 But we can get into that.

00:12:32.580 That's what my whole book is about.

00:12:34.120 So I do think this document could be in the works.

00:12:36.120 If it comes to pass,

00:12:37.380 if there really is some kind of megaton bomb

00:12:40.180 that's dropped on the Latin mass communities

00:12:42.860 throughout the world,

00:12:44.000 I think it's just going to be

00:12:45.140 another one of these occasions

00:12:46.880 where they are going to need to organize better

00:12:49.820 and resist it,

00:12:51.060 just as we've had to do in the past.

00:12:53.300 The traditional movement in the 1970s

00:12:55.320 was under a cloud of suspicion.

00:12:58.100 It had no backing whatsoever from the Vatican.

00:13:01.520 And yet people persevered

00:13:03.180 and eventually they got the support

00:13:04.800 they needed from John Paul II

00:13:06.560 and then more fully from Benedict XVI.

00:13:08.640 So yes, we have a bad Pope right now,

00:13:10.480 but we could have a decent Pope

00:13:11.920 or even a good Pope in the future

00:13:13.820 who will reverse these not irreversible decisions.

00:13:18.340 So let's talk a little bit

00:13:22.140 about another recent revelation.

00:13:24.540 Archbishop Genswein,

00:13:25.900 upon the death of Pope Benedict,

00:13:27.680 released his book.

00:13:29.020 A couple of very interesting things in there.

00:13:31.880 And one is this quote.

00:13:33.720 This was from the book of Archbishop Genswein

00:13:37.120 and talked about the Pope's reaction

00:13:41.040 to Traditiones Custodis.

00:13:43.400 So when Traditiones Custodis is released,

00:13:46.740 Pope Benedict has a reaction.

00:13:50.200 He then he was flipping through, he says,

00:13:54.400 and he furrowed his brow

00:13:56.100 when it was talked about in Traditiones,

00:14:00.640 or at least in the notes from Pope Francis,

00:14:03.300 that this was the real intention

00:14:05.440 of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict.

00:14:09.280 Can you speak to that?

00:14:10.860 Yes, yes.

00:14:11.900 In fact, those four pages

00:14:13.660 of Archbishop Genswein's book

00:14:15.580 are fascinating

00:14:16.560 because what they suggest

00:14:19.140 is a chink in the armor

00:14:21.320 of this curated image

00:14:24.240 that Pope Benedict was perfectly

00:14:25.860 in accord with Pope Francis.

00:14:27.480 I mean, we know that's not true.

00:14:28.480 We know that wasn't true

00:14:29.240 even with the release of the book

00:14:31.000 about celibacy

00:14:32.080 in connection with the Amazon Synod

00:14:34.660 and so forth.

00:14:35.760 But no, I mean, it's just false.

00:14:39.100 I mean, I have to read this passage

00:14:40.620 to you from the interview

00:14:43.040 that Pope Benedict did

00:14:44.260 with Petrus Sevald in 2016.

00:14:47.380 It was called Last Testament

00:14:49.860 is what it was called.

00:14:52.100 And Benedict said,

00:14:53.280 I have always said

00:14:54.260 and even still say

00:14:55.300 that it was important

00:14:56.380 that something which was previously

00:14:57.840 the most sacred thing

00:14:58.920 in the church to people

00:15:00.060 should not suddenly

00:15:01.320 be completely forbidden.

00:15:02.960 A society that considers

00:15:04.160 now to be forbidden

00:15:05.580 what it once perceived

00:15:06.480 as the central core,

00:15:07.780 that cannot be.

00:15:09.800 The inner identity

00:15:10.860 it has with the other,

00:15:12.560 the past,

00:15:13.160 must remain visible.

00:15:14.540 So for me,

00:15:15.100 it was not about tactical matters

00:15:16.840 and God knows what,

00:15:18.120 but about the inward reconciliation

00:15:19.720 of the church with itself.

00:15:22.240 And then Sevald says,

00:15:24.420 the reauthorization

00:15:25.260 of the Tridentine Mass

00:15:26.240 is often interpreted

00:15:27.160 primarily as a concession

00:15:28.400 to the Society of St. Pius X,

00:15:30.240 which is what Pope Francis asserts.

00:15:33.160 And Benedict responds,

00:15:34.160 this is just absolutely false.

00:15:38.040 That's his direct words.

00:15:39.340 It was important for me

00:15:40.660 that the church

00:15:41.680 is one with herself

00:15:42.800 inwardly with her own past.

00:15:44.940 That what was previously

00:15:47.340 holy to her

00:15:48.340 is not somehow wrong now.

00:15:51.900 Those quotations

00:15:52.700 are from pages 201 to 202

00:15:54.640 of the Last Testament.

00:15:56.940 With John Paul II too,

00:15:58.400 he talked about

00:15:59.000 legitimate aspirations

00:16:00.360 of the faithful

00:16:01.800 who loved the former liturgical books

00:16:04.880 and rites.

00:16:07.760 Legitimate aspirations

00:16:08.900 are not just

00:16:09.880 what the Lefebvreists had.

00:16:11.200 It's what any Catholic had

00:16:12.700 who missed the old rites

00:16:15.040 or who fell in love

00:16:16.100 with them afterwards.

00:16:19.220 There's another interesting passage

00:16:21.000 in the new book

00:16:22.060 and it goes this way.

00:16:24.060 This is, again,

00:16:24.640 the book by Archbishop Genswein

00:16:26.380 released right at the death

00:16:28.880 of Pope Benedict.

00:16:29.980 And this passage

00:16:31.820 also made a big splash.

00:16:33.780 He says,

00:16:35.220 Benedict in particular

00:16:37.360 felt it was wrong

00:16:38.560 to prohibit

00:16:39.260 the celebration of the Mass

00:16:40.260 in the ancient rite

00:16:41.120 in parochial churches.

00:16:42.900 In other words,

00:16:43.320 in parish churches.

00:16:44.480 As it is always dangerous

00:16:46.520 to corner a group of faithful

00:16:48.640 so as to make them

00:16:49.540 feel persecuted

00:16:50.480 and to inspire in them

00:16:52.320 a sense of having

00:16:53.300 to safeguard their identity

00:16:54.900 at all costs

00:16:55.820 in the face of the enemy.

00:16:58.600 If you can speak to that.

00:17:00.360 Yes, of course.

00:17:01.340 Well, there's an organization

00:17:03.380 in France called

00:17:04.560 Pei Liturgique,

00:17:05.820 Liturgical Peace,

00:17:07.660 or Pax Liturgica.

00:17:09.020 They sometimes use

00:17:09.740 the Latin version of that.

00:17:11.220 And their thesis is

00:17:12.900 Pope Benedict is the Pope

00:17:14.620 of Liturgical Peace

00:17:15.740 because he wanted to allow

00:17:18.480 groups of Catholics

00:17:20.180 with legitimate aspirations

00:17:21.620 to worship

00:17:22.620 in the traditional manner

00:17:24.160 if that's what nourishes

00:17:25.360 their faith,

00:17:25.980 as it indeed does,

00:17:27.880 as we can see

00:17:28.540 in many communities

00:17:29.660 around the world.

00:17:31.740 And, you know,

00:17:32.320 it was a similar motivation

00:17:33.680 with the Anglican ordinariate,

00:17:35.140 right?

00:17:35.360 These former Anglicans,

00:17:36.800 they love their own

00:17:37.700 Anglican tradition.

00:17:38.980 If we can purge it

00:17:40.040 of what's erroneous in it,

00:17:41.640 but let them keep

00:17:42.580 what's beautiful and worthy,

00:17:44.080 then let them have it, right?

00:17:45.740 So Benedict is truly

00:17:47.440 a Pope of pluralism

00:17:49.220 in a good sense.

00:17:50.940 And he also was a Pope

00:17:52.320 who understood that

00:17:53.580 if mistakes were made

00:17:56.020 in the Liturgical Reform,

00:17:57.080 and there were big mistakes made,

00:17:58.700 he admits that

00:17:59.680 over the course of 40 years,

00:18:01.600 and many other people

00:18:02.440 who look into it

00:18:03.440 admit the same thing.

00:18:04.700 He believed that

00:18:05.760 the best approach

00:18:06.860 was to kind of

00:18:08.240 let people work it out

00:18:09.620 on the ground level.

00:18:11.120 Let priests celebrate

00:18:12.560 the old rites.

00:18:13.580 Let that influence

00:18:14.480 how they celebrate

00:18:15.220 the new rites.

00:18:16.380 Let the faithful,

00:18:17.520 in a sense,

00:18:18.080 vote with their feet.

00:18:18.940 You know, it's kind of

00:18:20.620 the principle of

00:18:21.340 if God is for it,

00:18:23.020 who are we to be against it, right?

00:18:25.480 And so there is this idea

00:18:27.960 very much of fraternal

00:18:30.640 and charitable coexistence

00:18:32.540 that Benedict was aspiring to

00:18:34.540 in order to depolarize

00:18:37.500 and, let's say,

00:18:39.740 remove some of the rancor

00:18:41.040 from the whole question

00:18:42.840 of the liturgical debates

00:18:45.520 or war some people refer them to.

00:18:47.680 And so I, you know,

00:18:48.800 I edited a collection

00:18:49.800 of about 70 pieces

00:18:51.860 from cardinals

00:18:52.660 all the way down

00:18:53.340 to lay people

00:18:54.060 called

00:18:54.860 From Benedict's Peace

00:18:56.540 to Francis' War, right?

00:18:59.400 And the reason I called it that

00:19:01.040 is that that's exactly

00:19:01.940 what we're seeing.

00:19:02.600 He is the one

00:19:03.520 in the name of unity

00:19:04.580 who is antagonizing

00:19:06.960 these,

00:19:07.880 a whole group of Catholics,

00:19:09.360 a significant minority

00:19:10.700 of Catholics.

00:19:11.760 It's not,

00:19:12.260 that's not going to end well.

00:19:13.860 I mean, history shows that.

00:19:15.040 When you antagonize minorities,

00:19:16.220 it does not end well.

00:19:17.400 Hmm.

00:19:18.720 So there's an interesting

00:19:20.220 thing there

00:19:20.800 because

00:19:21.820 in a way

00:19:23.860 you could say

00:19:24.600 both JP II

00:19:25.620 and Benedict

00:19:26.280 tried to do a feint

00:19:28.360 to both sides.

00:19:29.660 It was like,

00:19:30.580 yeah, there's so many people,

00:19:32.380 particularly old people,

00:19:33.400 who are kind of

00:19:33.920 attached to this.

00:19:35.520 And perhaps

00:19:37.120 he had some of these

00:19:38.400 warring cardinals

00:19:39.860 who really had a problem

00:19:41.080 with the Latin mass

00:19:41.760 say,

00:19:42.700 okay, fine,

00:19:44.300 we'll give it to them.

00:19:45.060 Hopefully they'll die off

00:19:46.080 sooner than later.

00:19:48.020 But what seems

00:19:49.680 to have

00:19:50.280 gotten them crazy

00:19:53.420 is that it caught on.

00:19:55.440 It caught on

00:19:56.020 among the young people.

00:19:57.200 And all of a sudden

00:19:58.020 there was a massive resurgence

00:19:59.600 and it seems like

00:20:01.520 they went crazy.

00:20:02.400 It was like,

00:20:02.840 oh my gosh,

00:20:03.220 they're not just dying off.

00:20:04.580 Exactly.

00:20:05.400 Now,

00:20:05.940 now let's,

00:20:06.600 I mean,

00:20:06.780 let's,

00:20:07.040 it's interesting,

00:20:07.700 you know,

00:20:07.820 there was a piece

00:20:08.380 written recently,

00:20:09.740 a really puerile piece

00:20:11.260 that appeared

00:20:13.400 at a website

00:20:14.660 called Where Peter Is

00:20:15.960 in which the author,

00:20:18.260 he was,

00:20:18.520 he was arguing

00:20:19.120 essentially that the liturgy

00:20:20.140 is the Pope's toy

00:20:21.060 so he can do

00:20:21.680 whatever he wants

00:20:22.360 with it.

00:20:22.660 He can break it,

00:20:23.420 smash it,

00:20:24.060 replace it,

00:20:24.800 ad libito,

00:20:25.380 it doesn't matter,

00:20:26.280 which of course

00:20:26.760 is a profoundly

00:20:27.440 false view

00:20:28.300 and can be shown

00:20:29.000 to be false

00:20:29.540 from church history

00:20:30.320 and from theology.

00:20:31.960 But he,

00:20:32.860 he made the claim

00:20:33.840 that Benedict's gamble

00:20:35.660 or assumption

00:20:36.480 in Sumorum Pontificum

00:20:37.660 is that only

00:20:39.080 a tiny minority

00:20:40.300 of people

00:20:40.920 would ever go

00:20:41.800 to the Latin Mass

00:20:42.680 and therefore

00:20:43.660 it would never

00:20:44.260 become popular.

00:20:45.540 And,

00:20:46.080 and he draws

00:20:46.620 the conclusion

00:20:47.160 that if it became popular

00:20:48.460 then it would have

00:20:48.980 to be stopped,

00:20:49.920 which is the most

00:20:50.880 absurd conclusion

00:20:51.700 to think of,

00:20:52.260 right?

00:20:52.520 It's like,

00:20:53.160 if people,

00:20:54.020 you know,

00:20:54.760 eagerly and fervently

00:20:56.600 go to Mass,

00:20:57.920 there,

00:20:58.360 there must be

00:20:58.780 something wrong.

00:20:59.240 We better stop that,

00:21:00.100 right?

00:21:01.280 So,

00:21:01.940 but,

00:21:02.140 but this is false.

00:21:03.260 This is a false claim

00:21:04.140 because,

00:21:05.560 well,

00:21:05.860 actually Benedict,

00:21:07.200 the problem,

00:21:07.700 one of the problems

00:21:08.420 with Pope Benedict XVI

00:21:09.700 is that he

00:21:10.760 isn't always

00:21:11.860 100% consistent

00:21:13.080 in his thinking

00:21:14.020 about things.

00:21:15.040 So he does say

00:21:16.040 two things

00:21:16.580 that are kind of intention.

00:21:18.240 One of them

00:21:18.980 is,

00:21:19.520 he says,

00:21:20.220 I forget if this is,

00:21:21.460 I think this is in the letter

00:21:22.300 to the bishops

00:21:22.840 that accompanied

00:21:23.480 Sumorum Pontificum.

00:21:24.700 He says

00:21:25.180 that,

00:21:25.920 that,

00:21:26.520 that,

00:21:27.040 that,

00:21:27.300 attending the old right

00:21:28.800 presupposes

00:21:29.680 a liturgical formation

00:21:31.040 and a knowledge

00:21:31.800 of Latin

00:21:32.320 that is not

00:21:33.300 frequently to be met with.

00:21:35.540 And that's kind of

00:21:36.720 implying that,

00:21:37.540 okay,

00:21:37.660 this is a very minority

00:21:38.980 affair.

00:21:39.980 But,

00:21:40.420 he says in the same letter

00:21:41.760 that young people,

00:21:43.440 too,

00:21:43.600 are discovering this form

00:21:44.900 and finding in it

00:21:46.160 an encounter

00:21:46.760 with the mystery

00:21:47.440 of the Holy Eucharist

00:21:48.420 particularly suited to them.

00:21:50.320 Young people,

00:21:51.180 he says,

00:21:51.700 right?

00:21:52.260 Well,

00:21:52.660 if you see young people

00:21:53.820 being attracted to that,

00:21:55.500 and perhaps

00:21:56.340 they're not

00:21:56.760 classical Latin scholars

00:21:57.960 or whatever,

00:21:58.880 right?

00:21:59.140 Then it shows

00:21:59.860 that there's

00:22:00.240 an attractive force

00:22:01.580 in the traditional

00:22:02.420 right itself.

00:22:03.860 That is drawing people.

00:22:05.380 And if it draws young people,

00:22:06.520 it's drawing the future.

00:22:07.980 If it's drawing young people,

00:22:08.980 it's drawing families

00:22:09.880 with children,

00:22:10.900 right?

00:22:11.180 Which we see happening.

00:22:12.880 So,

00:22:13.500 I think that Benedict,

00:22:14.940 surely Benedict was

00:22:15.740 in a perfect position

00:22:16.560 to know,

00:22:17.060 especially as in Rome

00:22:18.260 for so many decades,

00:22:19.300 he met with Michael Davies,

00:22:20.540 he met with,

00:22:21.420 with all kinds of groups

00:22:23.320 of pilgrims coming to Rome

00:22:24.840 because of the Latin Mass.

00:22:27.260 He knew that it was attractive.

00:22:29.400 He knew that it was growing,

00:22:30.860 right?

00:22:31.100 And he still released

00:22:32.240 Sumorum Pontificum.

00:22:34.120 Mm-hmm.

00:22:35.480 Okay.

00:22:36.120 So,

00:22:36.560 now that we've dealt with

00:22:37.820 the sort of newsy aspects,

00:22:39.920 let's go back to some basics.

00:22:41.900 First of all,

00:22:42.800 in your book,

00:22:43.720 you say,

00:22:44.740 tradition is the ultimate norm.

00:22:48.200 What does that mean?

00:22:49.520 And,

00:22:50.340 just if you,

00:22:50.880 even if you can bring it back

00:22:51.740 even a little bit more,

00:22:53.320 for people who are

00:22:54.640 new to this,

00:22:57.200 what even is

00:22:58.500 the Latin Mass?

00:23:00.580 Why are people

00:23:01.320 attached to it?

00:23:02.560 What does it have to do

00:23:03.640 with tradition?

00:23:04.580 Isn't the Mass the Mass?

00:23:05.560 Yes.

00:23:06.100 Yes.

00:23:06.920 Right.

00:23:07.680 There's a lot built

00:23:08.380 into those questions.

00:23:09.720 But,

00:23:10.440 I mean,

00:23:11.060 basically,

00:23:11.560 Catholicism is a religion

00:23:12.640 of tradition.

00:23:13.500 I mean,

00:23:13.600 we just have to start

00:23:14.400 with that.

00:23:15.380 What is tradition?

00:23:16.160 What is,

00:23:16.920 in Greek,

00:23:17.460 paradosis,

00:23:18.200 is the word,

00:23:19.080 traditio in Latin.

00:23:20.200 It means that which is

00:23:21.320 handed down

00:23:22.180 from age to age,

00:23:23.680 from the apostles

00:23:24.500 to their successors,

00:23:26.260 from the church of one century

00:23:27.780 to the church of the next century.

00:23:30.460 So,

00:23:30.840 and of course,

00:23:32.520 at the heart of that tradition

00:23:33.840 is tradition with a capital T.

00:23:36.080 That is,

00:23:36.740 what God revealed

00:23:37.940 through Christ

00:23:39.060 to the apostles,

00:23:40.220 but was not written down

00:23:41.820 in the form of scripture.

00:23:43.220 Right?

00:23:43.280 That's what we,

00:23:43.900 we refer to this as oral tradition.

00:23:45.520 It's part of divine revelation.

00:23:46.680 But then there's a whole

00:23:48.680 sort of accumulation

00:23:49.640 of traditions,

00:23:51.000 ecclesiastical traditions,

00:23:52.380 we call them,

00:23:53.240 around that core,

00:23:54.700 that divine

00:23:55.260 and apostolic core.

00:23:57.320 And these ecclesiastical traditions

00:23:59.180 include

00:23:59.860 many,

00:24:01.100 many things.

00:24:01.720 They include

00:24:02.200 liturgical chant,

00:24:04.160 like Gregorian

00:24:04.740 or Byzantine chant.

00:24:06.060 They include

00:24:06.600 church architecture,

00:24:07.760 how we build our churches.

00:24:09.520 You know,

00:24:09.740 that we have tabernacles

00:24:10.820 and altars in churches.

00:24:12.440 You know,

00:24:12.820 these are,

00:24:13.600 these are things

00:24:14.140 that are modeled

00:24:14.780 after divine revelation,

00:24:15.920 but how we do them

00:24:17.220 and how we practice them

00:24:18.700 from century to century

00:24:19.680 is,

00:24:20.160 is built up

00:24:21.140 as a matter of customs.

00:24:22.360 Right?

00:24:23.100 I mean,

00:24:23.380 there are multiple ways

00:24:24.300 of doing things,

00:24:25.100 but you have to do it

00:24:26.020 one way.

00:24:27.000 And that what you see

00:24:28.260 when you study history

00:24:28.980 is that

00:24:29.360 as the church,

00:24:31.000 you might say,

00:24:32.120 learns to celebrate

00:24:33.180 the mass

00:24:33.620 with certain customs,

00:24:35.080 these customs

00:24:35.780 are taken very seriously

00:24:37.880 by all who come afterwards.

00:24:39.620 And,

00:24:40.180 and the ones

00:24:40.880 who come afterwards

00:24:41.400 cling to those customs.

00:24:42.480 They,

00:24:42.820 they hold onto them

00:24:43.700 as precious heirlooms,

00:24:44.960 as an inheritance.

00:24:46.260 Right?

00:24:46.540 Why?

00:24:47.340 Because it might have been

00:24:48.920 a saintly bishop

00:24:49.920 who gave you

00:24:51.060 part of the Eucharistic prayer.

00:24:52.760 You know,

00:24:53.080 perhaps it wasn't,

00:24:53.920 you know,

00:24:54.120 it wasn't fully written out

00:24:55.140 to begin with,

00:24:55.820 but some saintly bishop

00:24:57.100 added a certain section to it.

00:24:59.620 And,

00:25:00.120 you know,

00:25:00.400 and,

00:25:00.720 and then people said,

00:25:01.540 well,

00:25:01.600 we're not going to drop this.

00:25:03.240 Saint so-and-so

00:25:03.900 added this part.

00:25:04.780 Right?

00:25:05.340 And so in a way,

00:25:07.100 the liturgy grows up

00:25:08.440 slowly,

00:25:09.660 gradually,

00:25:10.260 like an organic process.

00:25:11.800 It's not,

00:25:12.280 it's a human process.

00:25:13.420 It's an artistic process,

00:25:14.600 but it is like

00:25:15.480 the slow growth

00:25:16.780 of a forest,

00:25:17.840 right?

00:25:18.480 Where there's seeds

00:25:19.460 or seeds are planted

00:25:20.480 and they grow up to maturity,

00:25:21.900 to fruition.

00:25:23.020 And then people

00:25:23.980 treasure that

00:25:25.220 and they take pride in it

00:25:26.500 and they don't want to

00:25:27.460 deviate from it.

00:25:28.840 This is just the,

00:25:29.720 the Catholic attitude.

00:25:31.640 Right?

00:25:32.620 And so,

00:25:33.340 in fact,

00:25:34.140 in the history of liturgy,

00:25:35.660 there is no

00:25:37.240 decisive break.

00:25:38.880 There's no point

00:25:40.000 at which

00:25:41.100 a Pope

00:25:42.560 says,

00:25:44.320 okay,

00:25:44.800 we need to

00:25:45.660 appoint a committee

00:25:46.740 and the committee

00:25:48.040 is going to evaluate

00:25:48.940 everything that we've done

00:25:50.480 before

00:25:51.020 and it's going to sift

00:25:52.360 between the things

00:25:53.140 they want to keep

00:25:53.780 and the things

00:25:54.180 they don't want to keep

00:25:55.060 and basically redesign

00:25:56.700 the whole thing

00:25:57.360 from the ground up.

00:25:58.520 That's,

00:25:58.960 that's never happened before.

00:26:00.780 In,

00:26:01.120 in some sense,

00:26:01.840 you might even say

00:26:02.260 that couldn't happen

00:26:03.280 prior to modern times.

00:26:04.820 It's just,

00:26:05.480 the modern mentality

00:26:06.660 is very kind of

00:26:08.480 technological

00:26:09.080 and constructivist

00:26:10.380 and,

00:26:10.900 you know,

00:26:11.320 people think

00:26:11.760 we can build

00:26:12.320 a better mousetrap

00:26:13.240 and,

00:26:13.480 you know,

00:26:13.540 we can build

00:26:14.000 a better liturgy

00:26:14.720 just like we can

00:26:15.320 build a better world,

00:26:16.300 you know?

00:26:16.840 So I think this,

00:26:18.500 you know,

00:26:18.660 the importance of tradition

00:26:19.780 is that it shows us

00:26:21.560 the norm to follow.

00:26:22.880 It shows us

00:26:23.480 the footsteps

00:26:24.420 that we should follow in

00:26:25.960 that God has

00:26:26.860 in his providence

00:26:28.040 appointed for us,

00:26:30.140 right?

00:26:30.780 It's part really

00:26:31.680 of the Holy Spirit's

00:26:32.860 guidance of the church,

00:26:34.060 I think we should say.

00:26:34.960 And so there is

00:26:36.580 something very disturbing

00:26:37.720 about a wholesale

00:26:39.780 revolution

00:26:41.520 in the forms of worship,

00:26:43.300 which is exactly

00:26:44.100 what happened

00:26:44.600 in the 1960s and 70s.

00:26:46.420 You know,

00:26:46.760 you ask,

00:26:47.200 well,

00:26:47.300 why are people

00:26:47.840 attached to the

00:26:48.600 traditional Latin mass?

00:26:49.520 I mean,

00:26:49.660 I think the simplest,

00:26:50.920 there are multiple reasons

00:26:52.180 people are attached to it,

00:26:53.560 but when they go to it,

00:26:55.720 I think they recognize,

00:26:57.080 even if they're not academics,

00:26:58.380 even if they haven't read

00:26:59.240 about the subject,

00:27:00.540 they recognize

00:27:01.360 a sort of awesomeness

00:27:03.100 that comes with

00:27:04.740 authentic grandeur,

00:27:07.160 that comes with

00:27:07.860 something that has

00:27:09.380 developed over 2,000 years,

00:27:11.700 right?

00:27:12.420 It's,

00:27:13.160 it comes,

00:27:13.760 you know,

00:27:13.960 the traditional Latin liturgy

00:27:15.140 is somehow monumental.

00:27:17.080 It's,

00:27:17.800 it forces

00:27:18.920 its objective reality

00:27:20.700 upon you,

00:27:21.980 and there are things

00:27:22.720 of it that you

00:27:23.200 immediately understand,

00:27:24.560 some of the symbolism,

00:27:25.960 the beauty of it,

00:27:26.880 the so-called smells

00:27:27.900 and bells,

00:27:28.740 but other things

00:27:29.580 are mystifying

00:27:30.440 and completely daunting

00:27:32.040 and they make you feel

00:27:33.120 small and humble,

00:27:34.820 right?

00:27:35.120 And I think that's the way

00:27:36.160 we should feel

00:27:36.860 when we go into

00:27:37.720 divine worship,

00:27:38.560 right?

00:27:39.520 So I,

00:27:40.160 I think what we experience

00:27:41.220 there is,

00:27:41.880 is I like to use this word

00:27:42.880 authenticity,

00:27:44.120 right?

00:27:45.640 And I think that when you,

00:27:47.940 when you get deeply

00:27:48.940 into the traditional rites,

00:27:50.740 all of them,

00:27:51.340 not just the mass,

00:27:52.120 but baptism

00:27:52.760 and confirmation

00:27:53.440 and marriage

00:27:54.340 and all of these

00:27:55.140 different rites,

00:27:56.360 and then you can,

00:27:57.040 and then you contrast them

00:27:58.100 with the Novus Ordo

00:27:59.000 versions of those things,

00:28:00.100 Paul VI's version,

00:28:01.740 versions of those things,

00:28:03.400 you,

00:28:03.680 you start to get the sense

00:28:04.940 of really like some committee

00:28:06.820 wrote this new version.

00:28:08.760 It,

00:28:08.780 it,

00:28:09.020 it's kind of clunky

00:28:09.960 and it seems to be

00:28:11.120 agenda-driven

00:28:11.900 and it's,

00:28:12.800 it's,

00:28:13.220 it's just,

00:28:13.880 it's awkward

00:28:14.780 and it seems to be

00:28:16.240 created to prompt people

00:28:17.920 to a certain kind

00:28:18.860 of participation,

00:28:19.480 which,

00:28:20.900 you know,

00:28:21.320 is not as deep

00:28:22.480 a kind of participation

00:28:23.680 as you get

00:28:24.440 with the old rites.

00:28:26.200 So then,

00:28:28.040 they,

00:28:28.660 they do a lot of talk

00:28:29.820 about a continuity.

00:28:31.180 Is there a continuity

00:28:32.280 between the old

00:28:33.740 rite of the mass

00:28:34.320 and the new rite?

00:28:35.960 No,

00:28:36.540 no,

00:28:36.940 there's not.

00:28:37.440 I mean,

00:28:37.580 there's,

00:28:38.000 there is what I would call

00:28:39.260 super,

00:28:39.780 there's some superficial

00:28:40.880 continuity

00:28:41.540 that is possible

00:28:44.180 and actual.

00:28:45.780 What I mean is,

00:28:46.780 if,

00:28:47.080 if you take a 30,000

00:28:48.420 foot view

00:28:49.120 of the old Roman rite

00:28:51.120 and the rite

00:28:52.160 of,

00:28:52.420 of Paul VI,

00:28:53.540 you can see

00:28:54.220 certain continuities,

00:28:55.160 right?

00:28:55.560 It begins with,

00:28:57.140 or it has the sign

00:28:57.860 of the cross

00:28:58.400 somewhere near

00:28:58.900 the beginning

00:28:59.360 and there's

00:28:59.880 a penitential rite

00:29:00.920 and there are

00:29:01.600 some readings

00:29:02.280 and a psalm

00:29:03.340 and then you have

00:29:04.300 an offertory

00:29:05.000 and then you have

00:29:05.700 the Eucharistic prayer,

00:29:07.180 right?

00:29:07.540 So,

00:29:07.800 and communion.

00:29:08.740 So,

00:29:09.100 if you take

00:29:09.680 a 30,000 foot view,

00:29:10.880 of course,

00:29:11.340 there are parallels.

00:29:11.980 But then again,

00:29:12.980 those things exist

00:29:13.780 in every liturgical rite

00:29:14.940 across the face

00:29:15.580 of the earth.

00:29:16.080 All the,

00:29:16.520 you know,

00:29:16.760 the dozens

00:29:17.180 of Eastern rites

00:29:18.500 and so forth,

00:29:19.000 they all follow

00:29:19.660 basically that pattern.

00:29:21.620 So,

00:29:22.140 really,

00:29:22.440 it's when you dive

00:29:23.220 into the details

00:29:24.080 that you see

00:29:24.840 the lack

00:29:25.600 of continuity,

00:29:26.620 the real rupture.

00:29:27.640 So,

00:29:27.820 for instance,

00:29:29.020 that there's only

00:29:30.380 ever been one

00:29:31.240 Eucharistic prayer

00:29:32.180 or anaphora,

00:29:33.220 namely the Roman canon

00:29:34.280 in the Western tradition

00:29:36.400 and then suddenly

00:29:38.180 there are many

00:29:39.860 Eucharistic prayers

00:29:40.820 that the priest

00:29:41.380 can choose

00:29:41.820 from ad libitum,

00:29:43.340 including some

00:29:44.280 that were put together

00:29:45.100 under very suspicious

00:29:46.200 circumstances

00:29:47.020 and with

00:29:47.920 faulty scholarship

00:29:49.260 behind them.

00:29:50.280 If you don't mind

00:29:51.840 delving into that

00:29:53.260 a little bit,

00:29:53.800 what do you mean

00:29:54.400 by that?

00:29:55.740 Well,

00:29:56.080 so,

00:29:56.300 in the West

00:29:58.160 from the 4th century,

00:29:59.800 the 4th century

00:30:00.580 is when the liturgy

00:30:01.660 shifted seemingly

00:30:02.860 from Greek to Latin.

00:30:04.800 So,

00:30:05.060 there was a big shift

00:30:06.020 in language.

00:30:08.920 It wasn't so much

00:30:10.100 though because

00:30:10.880 Latin was the vernacular

00:30:12.300 and they wanted to put

00:30:13.080 something in the vernacular

00:30:13.920 because the Latin

00:30:14.620 of the liturgy

00:30:15.160 is actually a rather

00:30:15.900 sophisticated,

00:30:17.220 culturally elevated,

00:30:19.060 artistically refined,

00:30:20.280 and rather archaic

00:30:21.900 and difficult Latin.

00:30:23.340 In fact,

00:30:23.660 it's not the Latin

00:30:24.380 that was spoken

00:30:24.960 in the marketplace.

00:30:27.240 And the reason for that

00:30:28.040 is that by the 4th century,

00:30:29.600 the aristocracy

00:30:30.520 and the clergy,

00:30:32.200 they were Latin speaking

00:30:33.300 rather than Greek speaking.

00:30:34.860 And so,

00:30:35.360 and Latin had finally become,

00:30:37.100 had developed

00:30:37.940 a sort of sacral vocabulary

00:30:39.500 thanks to translations

00:30:41.160 of scripture

00:30:41.720 into Latin

00:30:42.420 that made it possible

00:30:44.000 to have an elevated

00:30:45.240 and dignified liturgy

00:30:46.400 in Latin.

00:30:47.200 That wasn't possible prior.

00:30:48.880 So,

00:30:49.000 in a sort of ironic way,

00:30:51.220 it wasn't that

00:30:51.840 it was Latin

00:30:52.520 spoken commonly

00:30:53.480 that turned the liturgy

00:30:54.380 into Latin.

00:30:54.960 It's that Latin

00:30:55.480 had developed sufficiently

00:30:56.800 in refinement,

00:30:58.220 Christian Latin,

00:30:59.040 that the liturgy

00:30:59.900 could be put

00:31:00.480 into an appropriate

00:31:01.300 high register

00:31:02.280 of Latin,

00:31:03.680 right?

00:31:03.960 So,

00:31:04.200 it's almost the contrary

00:31:05.180 of the way people

00:31:06.240 talk about

00:31:06.860 the Latinization

00:31:07.960 of the liturgy.

00:31:09.060 But from that point,

00:31:10.420 all the way

00:31:11.000 to the 1960s,

00:31:12.640 the liturgy

00:31:13.120 of the Catholic Church

00:31:13.980 in all of its forms

00:31:15.720 in the West

00:31:16.220 was conducted

00:31:17.020 in Latin.

00:31:18.040 In the Ambrosian Rite,

00:31:19.920 the Mozarabic Rite,

00:31:21.240 in the Gallican Rites,

00:31:22.500 in the Roman Rite itself,

00:31:23.640 all over the place.

00:31:24.680 In the West,

00:31:25.900 it was in Latin.

00:31:27.480 So,

00:31:27.940 right there,

00:31:28.540 there's a huge rupture,

00:31:29.620 right?

00:31:29.860 From going from Latin,

00:31:31.400 exclusively in Latin,

00:31:32.780 to a sort of babel

00:31:35.020 of vernacular languages

00:31:36.360 with all the problems

00:31:37.540 that the translations

00:31:38.360 have brought in,

00:31:39.000 mistranslations,

00:31:40.160 translating pro multis

00:31:41.380 as for all

00:31:42.260 rather than for many,

00:31:43.200 you know,

00:31:43.720 my blood shed for you

00:31:44.760 and for many.

00:31:46.160 So,

00:31:46.720 that's one big rupture

00:31:48.340 right there.

00:31:49.500 But the other point

00:31:50.260 I was making is

00:31:50.900 during all of those

00:31:51.900 centuries of Latin liturgy,

00:31:53.280 there was one

00:31:53.980 Eucharistic prayer,

00:31:55.200 the Roman canon.

00:31:56.560 That's it.

00:31:58.140 And that prayer

00:31:59.680 is as ancient

00:32:00.180 as it gets.

00:32:00.680 I mean,

00:32:00.780 it was already traditional

00:32:01.760 by the time

00:32:02.220 Pope St. Gregory the Great

00:32:03.360 was reigning

00:32:04.020 in the end

00:32:04.440 of the 6th century.

00:32:06.780 And there was never

00:32:07.660 any other one

00:32:08.380 until the late 1960s

00:32:11.080 when several new

00:32:12.120 Eucharistic prayers

00:32:12.760 were created

00:32:13.320 for the sake of variety.

00:32:14.680 That's what the reformers said.

00:32:15.880 We need more variety,

00:32:17.440 you know.

00:32:18.340 And then they added

00:32:19.760 still more after that,

00:32:21.000 you know,

00:32:21.240 prayers for children,

00:32:22.240 prayers for reconciliation,

00:32:24.120 whatever it might be.

00:32:25.540 And so now

00:32:26.160 when you get

00:32:26.680 the Novus Ordo Altar Missal,

00:32:28.180 it's got a whole bunch

00:32:28.960 of Eucharistic prayers

00:32:29.660 and that is utterly,

00:32:30.840 utterly foreign

00:32:31.580 to the entire

00:32:32.280 Western tradition.

00:32:34.880 Just a quick note

00:32:35.860 before we return.

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00:32:57.320 And now,

00:32:58.120 back to the video.

00:33:01.280 So,

00:33:01.920 what are the problems

00:33:03.320 then with the

00:33:04.160 new Eucharistic prayers?

00:33:05.420 Do you see any

00:33:05.840 actual problems

00:33:06.580 with them?

00:33:07.660 Yes, well,

00:33:08.660 let's put it this way.

00:33:10.320 Anabali Bunyini,

00:33:11.400 who was the architect

00:33:12.060 of the liturgical reform,

00:33:13.820 the main secretary,

00:33:15.200 the kind of,

00:33:15.680 the one who was,

00:33:16.460 who operated the clearinghouse

00:33:17.740 for all of the different

00:33:18.700 ideas and papers

00:33:19.700 and votes

00:33:20.960 and so forth.

00:33:21.980 He said,

00:33:23.480 he wrote a giant book,

00:33:24.700 huge book,

00:33:25.700 all about the liturgical reform.

00:33:27.100 It's an incredible resource.

00:33:28.440 And you know what?

00:33:29.620 The publisher,

00:33:30.420 Liturgical Press,

00:33:31.620 has allowed it

00:33:32.500 to stay out of print

00:33:33.920 because it's too dangerous.

00:33:35.540 They don't want people

00:33:36.480 to get hold of this book.

00:33:38.180 You know,

00:33:38.500 if you go on the used book market,

00:33:39.820 it costs hundreds of dollars

00:33:40.880 because it's,

00:33:41.400 it's,

00:33:41.620 it's now become a rare book.

00:33:43.040 It needs to be republished somehow,

00:33:44.980 but I'm,

00:33:45.340 I'm sure they'll never do that

00:33:46.320 because it's so damning.

00:33:48.020 But anyway,

00:33:48.600 he documents in detail

00:33:49.800 what they did

00:33:50.440 and what their ideas were.

00:33:52.000 And,

00:33:52.460 and he says,

00:33:53.560 we need more variety

00:33:55.580 in,

00:33:57.140 in Eucharistic prayers.

00:33:58.160 And so when we write

00:33:59.160 the new ones,

00:33:59.780 they ought to be

00:34:00.680 different from the old one.

00:34:03.000 In other words,

00:34:03.780 not just,

00:34:04.760 not just a new way

00:34:06.260 of saying the same thing,

00:34:07.500 but saying different things

00:34:08.780 or having different emphases

00:34:10.060 is what he wanted.

00:34:12.460 And,

00:34:13.040 and one of those key shifts

00:34:15.260 is in the language

00:34:16.640 of sacrifice,

00:34:17.880 right?

00:34:18.920 The language,

00:34:19.580 the,

00:34:19.720 the mass,

00:34:20.600 the Holy Mass

00:34:21.300 as the sacrifice

00:34:22.580 of Jesus Christ

00:34:23.400 on the cross,

00:34:24.060 as representing that

00:34:26.100 and renewing it for us

00:34:27.320 and giving us access

00:34:28.160 to the grace

00:34:28.740 of that sacrifice,

00:34:29.840 that once for all sacrifice.

00:34:31.260 that language

00:34:32.560 is very strong

00:34:33.940 in the Roman canon.

00:34:35.120 It,

00:34:35.200 it's,

00:34:35.500 it permeates it,

00:34:37.100 right?

00:34:38.300 It's,

00:34:38.920 it's muted

00:34:39.680 in the new Eucharistic prayers.

00:34:41.460 It's not absent completely.

00:34:42.880 That would be false to say.

00:34:44.060 Sometimes people say

00:34:44.840 that it's gone.

00:34:45.660 No,

00:34:45.820 it's not gone,

00:34:46.420 but it's very minimal.

00:34:48.280 You know,

00:34:48.580 it's,

00:34:48.780 it's in passing,

00:34:49.820 you might say,

00:34:50.900 maybe once mentioned,

00:34:52.340 right?

00:34:52.940 And so it's definitely

00:34:54.120 not going to leave

00:34:55.040 the same impression

00:34:55.820 on the priest

00:34:56.820 or on the people

00:34:57.500 as they hear

00:34:58.240 these Eucharistic prayers.

00:34:59.300 And the new ones

00:35:00.060 have become by far

00:35:01.660 more popular

00:35:02.400 because they're shorter.

00:35:04.100 You know,

00:35:04.340 the Roman canon

00:35:04.920 is quite long.

00:35:05.920 It was,

00:35:06.600 it was,

00:35:07.360 although it might have been

00:35:08.340 said aloud

00:35:09.140 at a certain point,

00:35:10.200 very quickly,

00:35:10.880 it came to be said quietly,

00:35:12.600 sotto voce,

00:35:13.460 as when you go

00:35:14.220 to a Latin mass,

00:35:15.100 you don't hear the priest

00:35:16.220 saying the canon,

00:35:17.240 although you can follow

00:35:18.040 along with it

00:35:18.660 in a hand missile.

00:35:20.780 And so,

00:35:21.200 in fact,

00:35:21.620 when it's said out loud,

00:35:23.380 it's,

00:35:23.560 it's,

00:35:23.860 it's a long thing

00:35:24.820 to read out loud.

00:35:26.000 And most priests think,

00:35:27.160 well,

00:35:27.280 this is,

00:35:27.780 you know,

00:35:28.160 this is kind of tedious.

00:35:29.340 So,

00:35:29.420 so let's just do

00:35:30.080 the short one,

00:35:30.880 you know,

00:35:31.200 or the shorter one.

00:35:32.760 So yeah,

00:35:33.200 the language of sacrifice,

00:35:34.380 the language of typology

00:35:35.680 is very much lacking

00:35:37.560 in the new prayers.

00:35:38.480 What I mean is

00:35:38.980 in the Roman canon,

00:35:40.360 the priest mentions

00:35:41.400 Abel and Abraham

00:35:43.080 and Melchizedek

00:35:44.260 and all these sacrifices

00:35:45.660 in the history

00:35:47.040 of salvation

00:35:47.600 that paved the way

00:35:48.700 for the one supreme

00:35:49.580 sacrifice of Christ.

00:35:50.920 So it's,

00:35:51.340 it's also kind of

00:35:52.520 permeated with a Jewish

00:35:53.720 temple sacrificial feel

00:35:56.160 as well,

00:35:56.540 which really emphasizes

00:35:57.460 the unity

00:35:57.980 of salvation history

00:35:58.980 and the fact that

00:35:59.740 Christ is the redeemer

00:36:01.160 of all,

00:36:01.800 including the Jews

00:36:02.680 and all men,

00:36:03.700 all pagans too,

00:36:05.140 right?

00:36:05.560 That's,

00:36:06.020 that's nowhere

00:36:06.640 in the new Eucharistic prayers.

00:36:08.640 So there are,

00:36:09.860 there are so many,

00:36:10.680 I mean,

00:36:10.860 in one of the chapters

00:36:11.740 of my book,

00:36:12.760 the ones of future Roman,

00:36:13.540 right,

00:36:13.660 is all about the Roman canon

00:36:15.160 and all of these

00:36:15.920 wonderful features

00:36:16.740 that it has.

00:36:17.360 One of the things

00:36:20.740 that I've noticed

00:36:21.500 that's quite different

00:36:23.860 is where in the

00:36:26.300 Novus Ordo,

00:36:27.320 right,

00:36:27.620 the modern rite

00:36:28.800 of the mass,

00:36:29.520 we talk about

00:36:30.460 the priest proclaims,

00:36:32.700 not as a mystery

00:36:33.200 of faith,

00:36:34.140 and then they say

00:36:35.120 this little prayer,

00:36:36.060 but that's very different

00:36:38.120 from the old rite,

00:36:39.360 if you can explain that.

00:36:40.600 Exactly.

00:36:41.140 And there's a chapter

00:36:41.820 in my book

00:36:42.220 just on this question

00:36:43.220 on what happened

00:36:44.040 to the mystery

00:36:44.540 of faith.

00:36:46.280 So this phrase,

00:36:47.660 Mysterium Fidei,

00:36:49.660 is,

00:36:50.280 it's a very mysterious phrase.

00:36:52.180 None of the liturgical historians

00:36:53.460 know where it came from.

00:36:54.900 It's not in any

00:36:55.740 of the New Testament

00:36:56.640 narratives

00:36:57.240 of the Last Supper,

00:36:59.580 but it's there

00:37:00.300 in every manuscript

00:37:01.480 we have of the Roman canon.

00:37:03.080 And where is it?

00:37:04.160 It's located

00:37:04.900 in the middle

00:37:06.040 of the prayer

00:37:07.240 by which the priest

00:37:08.420 consecrates,

00:37:09.340 or the words

00:37:09.860 by which the priest

00:37:10.460 consecrates

00:37:10.900 the precious blood.

00:37:12.400 So he says,

00:37:14.320 And then he goes on,

00:37:23.620 right?

00:37:23.900 So it's planted

00:37:25.060 mysteriously

00:37:25.780 in the middle

00:37:26.320 of this prayer

00:37:26.940 of consecration

00:37:27.740 as if to draw

00:37:29.760 attention

00:37:30.660 to the fact

00:37:31.660 that this

00:37:32.320 is the awesome

00:37:33.280 mystery of salvation,

00:37:34.820 that what we're doing

00:37:35.700 here is

00:37:36.920 at the core

00:37:37.860 of our Catholic faith,

00:37:39.980 right?

00:37:40.160 And, you know,

00:37:43.340 what Bunini said

00:37:44.340 and the other

00:37:45.060 liturgical reformers

00:37:46.520 on the concilium,

00:37:47.680 the committee

00:37:48.100 for reform,

00:37:49.460 they said,

00:37:50.240 this is a strange thing.

00:37:52.080 It's not found

00:37:52.940 in any of the

00:37:53.520 New Testament

00:37:54.040 accounts.

00:37:55.500 They were kind of

00:37:56.020 thinking like Protestants,

00:37:57.060 like it has to be found

00:37:58.180 in the scriptures

00:37:59.120 or else we shouldn't do it.

00:38:01.020 And so we should

00:38:01.800 remove this phrase.

00:38:03.780 But then Paul VI

00:38:05.300 objected.

00:38:05.960 He said,

00:38:06.240 no, no, no,

00:38:06.640 we don't want

00:38:07.380 to remove this phrase

00:38:08.180 altogether.

00:38:09.140 So then the solution,

00:38:10.120 the compromise,

00:38:11.220 was to turn it

00:38:12.040 into the occasion

00:38:13.060 for an acclamation

00:38:13.980 from the congregation,

00:38:15.440 right?

00:38:15.740 So they said,

00:38:16.460 well,

00:38:16.900 if we say it

00:38:17.580 after the consecration,

00:38:19.280 then it can be

00:38:19.980 like an invitation

00:38:21.240 for the people

00:38:22.100 to make

00:38:22.560 a certain act

00:38:23.820 of faith.

00:38:25.160 So already

00:38:26.080 right there,

00:38:26.500 they're just kind

00:38:26.960 of playing around

00:38:27.760 with these elements.

00:38:29.080 I mean,

00:38:29.280 they're just ripping

00:38:30.260 something from

00:38:30.980 its historic context

00:38:32.100 and repurposing it,

00:38:34.560 as we would say.

00:38:35.940 And then,

00:38:36.740 as Baccia and Ottaviani

00:38:38.480 objected all the way

00:38:39.660 back in 1969,

00:38:41.940 the memorial acclamation

00:38:43.380 introduces a kind

00:38:45.780 of confusion

00:38:46.580 because what the people

00:38:48.380 say in response

00:38:49.220 to Mysterio Fidei

00:38:50.460 is,

00:38:51.060 you know,

00:38:52.700 Christ has died,

00:38:53.840 Christ has risen,

00:38:54.640 Christ will come again.

00:38:55.920 Yes,

00:38:56.280 exactly.

00:38:57.020 In other words,

00:38:57.740 they're not so much

00:38:59.180 acknowledging the real

00:39:00.220 presence of Christ

00:39:01.060 in the Eucharist

00:39:01.720 as Christ came

00:39:03.740 and he will come again.

00:39:05.480 And so,

00:39:05.920 there's a sort of

00:39:06.560 confusion of different

00:39:07.420 levels of presence.

00:39:08.660 What are we talking

00:39:09.300 about here?

00:39:10.240 That's not,

00:39:10.800 that wasn't the original

00:39:11.600 meaning of Mysterio Fidei

00:39:13.520 at all.

00:39:14.480 So,

00:39:14.800 I mean,

00:39:15.060 to go into more detail

00:39:16.340 would be getting

00:39:16.860 too deep in the weeds,

00:39:17.820 but the interested reader

00:39:18.860 can find it

00:39:20.040 in my chapter.

00:39:21.780 Absolutely.

00:39:22.160 I think it's

00:39:23.200 very significant

00:39:24.060 to switch

00:39:25.020 the meaning

00:39:26.020 from what

00:39:27.340 I think

00:39:28.840 for most Catholics

00:39:29.900 who have even

00:39:30.620 basic understandings

00:39:31.520 of the faith.

00:39:33.000 The mystery of faith,

00:39:34.780 this central belief

00:39:36.180 that I think

00:39:37.280 tons of,

00:39:39.060 even followers

00:39:40.020 of Jesus

00:39:40.420 walked away

00:39:41.000 for the very reason,

00:39:42.360 you know,

00:39:42.620 that he said,

00:39:43.380 this is my body,

00:39:44.280 this is my blood,

00:39:45.020 and they walked away.

00:39:46.400 Believers in him,

00:39:47.360 they walked away

00:39:48.380 saying,

00:39:49.380 hey,

00:39:49.560 this is too weird.

00:39:50.780 How can this guy

00:39:51.380 give us his flesh to eat?

00:39:52.880 That,

00:39:53.600 for everybody,

00:39:54.480 is the mystery of faith.

00:39:55.340 I mean,

00:39:55.540 from any kind

00:39:56.580 of normal understanding,

00:39:57.440 the mystery of faith

00:39:57.980 is consubstantiation,

00:39:59.620 the changing

00:40:00.200 of this bread and water

00:40:01.380 into Jesus' own body

00:40:03.220 and blood,

00:40:03.780 really living.

00:40:05.320 Yes,

00:40:05.680 I think you meant

00:40:07.040 to say transubstantiation.

00:40:08.460 Oh,

00:40:08.760 excuse me.

00:40:09.380 Sorry.

00:40:10.260 Transubstantiation,

00:40:10.780 absolutely.

00:40:11.600 Yes,

00:40:12.000 of the bread and wine,

00:40:14.020 exactly.

00:40:15.500 Yeah,

00:40:15.900 I mean,

00:40:16.140 in fact,

00:40:16.700 we could think of it

00:40:17.320 this way,

00:40:17.840 right?

00:40:18.540 The central mysteries

00:40:19.520 of the Christian faith

00:40:20.520 are the blessed trinity,

00:40:22.720 which we can only know

00:40:23.560 by divine revelation,

00:40:24.460 and the incarnation

00:40:27.000 of the word,

00:40:28.060 which,

00:40:28.340 again,

00:40:28.560 we can only know

00:40:29.080 by divine revelation.

00:40:29.900 We can make arguments

00:40:30.760 of fittingness

00:40:31.520 or we can make

00:40:32.320 certain analogies,

00:40:33.460 but we can only know

00:40:34.660 these things for sure

00:40:35.580 because God tells them

00:40:36.760 to us.

00:40:38.320 And then,

00:40:39.380 following from that

00:40:40.880 is the mystery

00:40:41.980 of the church

00:40:42.560 as the mystical body

00:40:43.420 of Christ

00:40:43.780 and the mystery

00:40:44.380 of the Holy Eucharist

00:40:45.360 as the real body

00:40:47.160 of Christ

00:40:47.700 that causes

00:40:48.320 the mystical body

00:40:49.320 of Christ.

00:40:50.140 And all of those things

00:40:51.080 are linked together.

00:40:52.220 And in fact,

00:40:55.060 it just is a fact

00:40:56.840 that the traditional mass

00:40:59.460 emphasizes all of those mysteries

00:41:01.240 much,

00:41:01.960 much more.

00:41:03.240 I didn't talk about this

00:41:04.380 so much in this particular book,

00:41:05.980 but in an earlier book

00:41:07.060 called Resurgent

00:41:08.840 in the Mist of Crisis,

00:41:10.340 I talked about

00:41:11.060 how much the trinity

00:41:12.920 has been removed

00:41:14.040 from the Novus Ordo.

00:41:15.300 I mean,

00:41:15.460 that sounds shocking.

00:41:16.240 Like,

00:41:16.400 how can that possibly be true?

00:41:17.500 Well,

00:41:17.780 I document it in detail.

00:41:19.680 It's the Holy Trinity

00:41:20.860 is mentioned

00:41:21.460 much,

00:41:22.120 much more

00:41:22.580 and doxologized,

00:41:23.800 praised much,

00:41:24.620 much more

00:41:25.000 in the old right

00:41:26.140 than in the new right.

00:41:27.640 And yet,

00:41:28.140 some people have the temerity

00:41:29.320 to say,

00:41:30.340 oh,

00:41:30.660 you know,

00:41:31.380 the faith,

00:41:32.360 the Catholic faith

00:41:34.340 in the Trinity

00:41:34.800 was revitalized

00:41:35.900 by the Novus Ordo.

00:41:36.680 Well,

00:41:36.860 I mean,

00:41:37.100 they don't know

00:41:38.140 what they're talking about.

00:41:39.360 They haven't even looked

00:41:40.180 at the evidence,

00:41:41.060 right?

00:41:41.540 And so,

00:41:42.140 now we see the results,

00:41:43.740 right?

00:41:44.440 What,

00:41:45.700 how much do Catholics

00:41:46.740 know about the Trinity?

00:41:48.480 If they go to the Latin Mass

00:41:50.100 for most of the Sundays

00:41:51.860 of the year,

00:41:52.660 they get this Trinitarian preface

00:41:54.740 that lays out

00:41:56.400 the whole Catholic doctrine

00:41:57.760 of the Trinity.

00:41:59.400 I mean,

00:41:59.620 even if you're only half awake,

00:42:00.940 you're going to get something

00:42:01.640 from that

00:42:02.000 by hearing it Sunday

00:42:02.800 after Sunday

00:42:03.260 after Sunday.

00:42:04.020 That's,

00:42:04.440 that's used only once a year

00:42:05.900 in the Novus Ordo.

00:42:06.780 It's used dozens of times a year

00:42:08.580 in the traditional Mass,

00:42:09.880 right?

00:42:10.620 And then similarly,

00:42:11.740 Catholics,

00:42:12.400 the surveys show

00:42:13.320 that even Catholics

00:42:14.260 who go to Mass regularly,

00:42:15.380 the Novus Ordo,

00:42:16.160 don't believe

00:42:16.620 in the real presence.

00:42:18.040 Well,

00:42:18.220 why did that happen?

00:42:19.480 It happened both

00:42:20.480 because the liturgy

00:42:21.480 doesn't talk about it as much

00:42:22.680 and because the priests

00:42:24.080 and the people

00:42:24.900 don't behave

00:42:25.720 towards the Eucharist

00:42:26.620 as if they believed

00:42:27.640 that it was really

00:42:28.460 the body and blood of Christ,

00:42:29.880 right?

00:42:30.500 And so,

00:42:31.020 this is also part

00:42:32.120 of my argument

00:42:33.600 about rupture

00:42:34.500 is that,

00:42:35.480 you know,

00:42:36.360 ways that we paid reference

00:42:38.480 to the Eucharist

00:42:40.160 throughout the whole

00:42:41.200 of church history

00:42:41.940 and we still do

00:42:43.020 in the traditional rite

00:42:43.920 were stripped away

00:42:45.380 from the Novus Ordo.

00:42:47.140 Well,

00:42:47.280 should we be surprised

00:42:48.280 at the results

00:42:49.180 that we're seeing?

00:42:51.300 Yeah.

00:42:52.480 If anything,

00:42:54.260 that is one of the

00:42:55.640 most startling changes.

00:42:58.500 The change to

00:43:01.060 not face our Lord,

00:43:03.920 the priest not facing our Lord,

00:43:06.100 in fact,

00:43:06.760 the priest with his back

00:43:08.280 to the tabernacle,

00:43:09.440 if the tabernacle

00:43:10.320 is still front and center

00:43:11.280 or in the church at all,

00:43:12.680 but then the reception

00:43:14.940 of Holy Communion

00:43:15.760 standing on the hand

00:43:18.040 or just taken

00:43:18.820 out of the hand

00:43:20.260 of the priest,

00:43:22.340 it's funny to hear

00:43:24.280 from non-Catholics

00:43:25.600 testify to say,

00:43:28.020 if I really believed

00:43:29.740 that that was Jesus,

00:43:30.780 I would come up

00:43:31.820 crawling on my hands

00:43:33.560 and knees

00:43:33.900 and my forehead

00:43:34.720 to the ground.

00:43:36.500 So,

00:43:37.160 that really is

00:43:38.560 a startling change

00:43:40.600 and something that,

00:43:43.600 actually,

00:43:45.020 can you tell us

00:43:45.900 something about

00:43:46.440 the change there

00:43:48.080 and why that got made?

00:43:49.420 But also,

00:43:50.460 notice that

00:43:51.240 just this week

00:43:53.040 in the

00:43:54.020 catechists

00:43:56.580 and women lectors

00:43:57.820 installation

00:43:58.540 in the Vatican,

00:44:00.320 you see every single

00:44:01.660 one of them

00:44:02.180 receiving standing

00:44:03.040 and on the hand.

00:44:04.360 Yes.

00:44:04.920 Yeah,

00:44:05.500 if you could tell us that.

00:44:06.180 Well, look,

00:44:06.580 I mean,

00:44:06.820 this pontificate,

00:44:07.840 Pope Francis

00:44:08.360 is the Pope of rupture,

00:44:09.640 right?

00:44:10.460 I mean,

00:44:10.720 he wants to drive

00:44:12.040 the wedge

00:44:12.720 as deeply as possible

00:44:14.460 between pre-conciliar

00:44:15.620 and post-conciliar.

00:44:17.060 I mean,

00:44:17.320 he's the anti-Benedict.

00:44:18.720 He does everything

00:44:19.520 that Benedict wanted.

00:44:20.860 Francis wants to do

00:44:21.560 the opposite.

00:44:23.080 I mean,

00:44:23.360 once you see that,

00:44:24.200 it's actually really easy

00:44:25.060 to understand

00:44:25.600 everything he says

00:44:26.360 and everything he does.

00:44:27.760 So,

00:44:28.380 what did Benedict XVI do?

00:44:29.640 He insisted

00:44:30.360 at the Vatican

00:44:32.000 that at papal masses

00:44:34.020 that people should kneel

00:44:35.300 to receive communion

00:44:36.540 on the tongue.

00:44:37.680 He didn't,

00:44:38.080 he was,

00:44:39.780 this perhaps is a weakness.

00:44:41.220 I think in many ways

00:44:42.160 it is a weakness.

00:44:42.760 He didn't want to impose rules

00:44:44.540 on the whole church

00:44:45.380 and say,

00:44:46.140 okay,

00:44:46.360 everybody,

00:44:47.040 people now should kneel

00:44:48.500 and receive on the tongue.

00:44:49.460 But he wanted to lead

00:44:50.160 by example.

00:44:51.260 Here's what the Pope does

00:44:52.660 at his own liturgy

00:44:53.720 and therefore it's a model,

00:44:55.340 like a shining model

00:44:56.220 that you should imitate.

00:44:57.560 Well,

00:44:58.520 you know,

00:44:59.240 the regime at the Vatican

00:45:00.600 now disagrees

00:45:01.340 with that model

00:45:02.100 and they want to have it,

00:45:02.960 they want to go back

00:45:03.520 to the 60s

00:45:04.260 or the 70s.

00:45:05.140 You know,

00:45:05.240 that's their slogan,

00:45:05.980 back to the 70s,

00:45:06.840 it seems to me.

00:45:08.920 So,

00:45:09.440 I mean,

00:45:09.800 getting to your question

00:45:10.560 about how all this happened,

00:45:12.580 this is what we have

00:45:13.640 to understand,

00:45:14.540 that in the period

00:45:16.380 right before

00:45:17.360 and during

00:45:18.100 and right after

00:45:18.860 the Second Vatican Council,

00:45:20.020 the theologians

00:45:24.940 in Europe,

00:45:25.740 the European theologians,

00:45:26.940 especially from Central

00:45:27.700 and Northern Europe,

00:45:29.040 had very progressive ideas,

00:45:31.760 some of which

00:45:32.640 they got

00:45:34.120 from twisting passages

00:45:35.920 from church fathers,

00:45:37.340 some of it was modernism,

00:45:39.120 you know,

00:45:39.700 revived,

00:45:40.380 warmed over,

00:45:41.400 but wherever they got

00:45:42.460 their ideas from,

00:45:44.040 they wanted to

00:45:45.020 de-emphasize

00:45:46.360 what the church

00:45:47.080 had been doing

00:45:47.800 for a thousand years

00:45:49.260 or more

00:45:49.680 and create

00:45:51.260 new points

00:45:52.200 of emphasis.

00:45:52.860 So one of their

00:45:53.360 new points

00:45:54.000 of emphasis

00:45:54.360 was to say

00:45:55.060 that the body

00:45:56.920 of Christ

00:45:57.620 is primarily

00:45:58.880 the people

00:45:59.740 who are gathered together.

00:46:00.980 We are the body

00:46:01.780 of Christ,

00:46:02.380 as St. Paul says.

00:46:03.920 And so,

00:46:04.440 we don't want to put

00:46:05.140 too much emphasis

00:46:06.120 on the Eucharist

00:46:06.820 as the body of Christ

00:46:07.500 because it'll make people

00:46:08.300 neglect the fact

00:46:09.980 that they are members

00:46:10.680 of the body of Christ.

00:46:11.960 Well,

00:46:13.020 that's a half truth.

00:46:14.740 I mean,

00:46:14.920 it is true,

00:46:15.420 we are members

00:46:15.860 of the body of Christ,

00:46:16.640 but we are made

00:46:17.780 to be members

00:46:18.300 of the body of Christ

00:46:18.840 by Christ himself.

00:46:20.020 And it's because

00:46:20.440 he's really present

00:46:21.060 in the Eucharist

00:46:21.500 that we get to be

00:46:22.140 his members,

00:46:22.740 right?

00:46:23.420 There's a priority here.

00:46:25.060 And even Paul VI

00:46:25.840 said that very clearly

00:46:26.940 in his encyclical

00:46:27.620 Mysterium Fidei,

00:46:28.500 who said that Christ

00:46:29.980 is present in many ways,

00:46:31.300 but he is present

00:46:32.180 in a singularly real

00:46:33.720 and profound way

00:46:35.560 in the Eucharist.

00:46:36.500 That has primacy,

00:46:38.420 right?

00:46:38.560 That's the traditional

00:46:39.320 Catholic way

00:46:39.940 of looking at it.

00:46:41.160 So modern theologians,

00:46:42.920 it's not that they have

00:46:43.940 simply erroneous ideas,

00:46:45.680 although sometimes they do,

00:46:47.240 but they want to take

00:46:48.920 a truth,

00:46:49.800 a partial truth,

00:46:51.560 and magnify it

00:46:52.700 to such an extent

00:46:53.540 that it elbows out

00:46:54.800 all kinds of other truths.

00:46:57.160 And so on the basis

00:46:57.860 of this idea

00:46:58.460 that we are

00:46:58.920 the body of Christ,

00:47:00.120 then they wanted

00:47:00.760 to sort of

00:47:01.680 de-emphasize

00:47:02.700 some of what

00:47:03.760 they considered

00:47:04.280 excessive signs

00:47:05.420 of reverence

00:47:06.140 and humility

00:47:06.820 and submission

00:47:07.600 towards the Eucharist,

00:47:09.140 right?

00:47:09.560 Because that's not really

00:47:10.560 in accord with

00:47:11.300 our Christian dignity.

00:47:12.320 That's what they argued.

00:47:13.040 It's absurd.

00:47:13.780 It's an absurd argument,

00:47:14.840 but that's what they

00:47:15.440 were saying

00:47:15.820 in the 60s.

00:47:17.920 So even though

00:47:18.680 Paul VI

00:47:19.200 asked the bishops

00:47:19.980 of the world,

00:47:20.560 as you know,

00:47:21.680 should we keep

00:47:22.320 the custom

00:47:22.820 of receiving

00:47:23.440 on the tongue?

00:47:24.120 And nearly all

00:47:24.980 of them said yes.

00:47:26.680 Nevertheless,

00:47:27.220 he caved

00:47:27.760 into the pressure

00:47:28.500 and allowed

00:47:29.160 a loophole.

00:47:30.340 If Episcopal conferences

00:47:31.360 wanted to ask

00:47:32.160 for permission

00:47:32.800 for communion

00:47:33.720 in the hand

00:47:34.280 or for a rescript

00:47:35.860 for the Vatican

00:47:36.460 basically to give

00:47:37.380 an exception

00:47:37.920 to the norm,

00:47:39.260 which is to receive

00:47:39.960 on the tongue,

00:47:40.620 then the conferences

00:47:42.020 could do so.

00:47:42.700 And of course,

00:47:43.120 one conference

00:47:43.780 after another

00:47:44.480 asked for that

00:47:45.620 because they were

00:47:46.720 all driven

00:47:47.100 by people

00:47:47.540 like Rembert

00:47:48.140 Weakland.

00:47:49.920 And that's how

00:47:51.640 we ended up

00:47:52.140 with the situation

00:47:52.920 that we have

00:47:54.460 today.

00:47:55.640 Whereas when you

00:47:56.220 go to a Latin Mass,

00:47:57.220 people still preserve

00:47:58.660 these beautiful

00:48:00.160 age-old customs,

00:48:02.100 kneeling before

00:48:02.900 our Lord and Savior

00:48:03.880 and receiving

00:48:04.620 him on the tongue

00:48:05.340 from the anointed

00:48:07.740 hand of the priest

00:48:08.740 as is right

00:48:09.820 and fitting.

00:48:11.520 Yeah,

00:48:11.720 it's a beautiful

00:48:13.580 act that

00:48:14.760 even that alone,

00:48:17.140 even for those

00:48:17.980 folks who really

00:48:18.900 understand no Latin,

00:48:20.340 they know they go

00:48:21.020 to a Latin Mass,

00:48:22.360 a traditional Mass,

00:48:23.460 and they know

00:48:24.320 they're at the

00:48:24.760 crucifixion.

00:48:25.980 At the crucifixion,

00:48:26.740 you wouldn't also

00:48:27.760 understand what

00:48:28.660 went on,

00:48:28.980 but you'd know

00:48:29.440 our Lord is there

00:48:30.160 and he's being

00:48:30.580 crucified for me.

00:48:32.020 When they go up

00:48:32.960 and receive our Lord,

00:48:34.380 it's just stunning

00:48:37.480 because you have

00:48:39.260 a real presentation

00:48:40.900 of you're receiving

00:48:43.100 God and worthy

00:48:44.260 as you are.

00:48:46.900 It is,

00:48:47.660 it's the most

00:48:48.220 touching thing

00:48:48.700 and to watch

00:48:49.420 people receiving

00:48:51.420 so worthily,

00:48:53.360 it's,

00:48:53.660 it's funny,

00:48:54.940 it does a lot of

00:48:55.660 things on a

00:48:56.080 psychological level

00:48:56.840 that assist in

00:48:58.400 the belief

00:48:59.380 in the true

00:49:00.180 presence.

00:49:01.360 No,

00:49:01.560 I agree.

00:49:02.200 It's one of the

00:49:03.080 most beautiful

00:49:03.660 aspects of

00:49:04.780 the traditional

00:49:05.260 Mass,

00:49:05.760 and it's not,

00:49:06.840 and of course,

00:49:07.380 I just want to say

00:49:07.960 this for fairness

00:49:08.600 because people

00:49:09.300 are always looking

00:49:10.000 for ways to attack

00:49:11.000 us,

00:49:12.040 you know,

00:49:12.240 oh,

00:49:12.460 there's a loop,

00:49:13.060 there's a,

00:49:13.520 there's a,

00:49:13.860 there's a gap

00:49:14.360 in your argument.

00:49:15.340 So,

00:49:15.740 yes,

00:49:16.020 it is possible

00:49:16.900 to,

00:49:17.740 for everyone

00:49:18.140 to receive

00:49:18.660 kneeling at a

00:49:19.440 communion rail

00:49:19.960 and on the tongue

00:49:20.580 at the Novus Ordo

00:49:21.360 Mass.

00:49:22.140 That is not

00:49:23.000 forbidden,

00:49:23.620 it's never been

00:49:24.280 forbidden,

00:49:25.220 nobody ever said

00:49:26.020 you had to tear

00:49:26.540 out the communion

00:49:27.020 rails,

00:49:27.880 or that you,

00:49:28.540 but it's harder

00:49:30.040 to do that

00:49:30.540 at the Novus Ordo

00:49:31.140 because there is

00:49:31.920 this contrary

00:49:33.660 of,

00:49:34.440 there's a kind

00:49:34.880 of peer pressure

00:49:35.680 that comes from

00:49:36.780 most people

00:49:37.440 doing things

00:49:37.940 differently,

00:49:38.520 and especially

00:49:38.960 from the USCCB

00:49:40.080 saying the normal

00:49:41.260 way to receive

00:49:42.020 is standing,

00:49:43.280 but they don't

00:49:44.120 say in your hand,

00:49:45.140 but standing

00:49:45.820 is the norm

00:49:46.520 in the United States.

00:49:49.240 And so already

00:49:49.880 for a priest

00:49:50.500 to recommend

00:49:51.120 that people kneel

00:49:52.040 and for people

00:49:52.620 to kneel

00:49:53.000 is a kind

00:49:53.660 of awkward

00:49:54.060 situation

00:49:54.580 because now

00:49:54.940 you're going

00:49:55.320 against what

00:49:55.900 the USCCB

00:49:56.740 has said.

00:49:57.800 So it's difficult

00:49:58.860 to get the right

00:49:59.880 things to happen

00:50:00.780 in the Novus Ordo.

00:50:01.860 That's one of the,

00:50:02.580 one of the great

00:50:03.460 problems with the

00:50:04.200 so-called reform

00:50:04.960 of the reform.

00:50:06.260 You know,

00:50:06.500 lots of good ideas,

00:50:08.420 but,

00:50:09.160 but extreme

00:50:10.480 difficulties

00:50:11.160 in implementing

00:50:12.240 them.

00:50:13.580 Now,

00:50:14.320 one of the things

00:50:15.560 with this

00:50:16.320 upcoming,

00:50:17.480 or perhaps

00:50:18.480 upcoming,

00:50:20.020 apostolic

00:50:21.680 constitution,

00:50:23.100 they seem

00:50:24.460 to be taking

00:50:25.020 sort of steps

00:50:26.120 towards

00:50:27.500 really outlawing

00:50:29.400 the traditional

00:50:31.000 mass.

00:50:33.140 Can that be

00:50:33.960 done?

00:50:35.120 And

00:50:35.500 if it is

00:50:37.500 said,

00:50:38.140 what does

00:50:39.060 that mean?

00:50:39.560 And what

00:50:39.840 should

00:50:40.120 traditional

00:50:41.140 priests do

00:50:41.740 and the

00:50:42.420 faithful do?

00:50:43.460 Yes.

00:50:44.320 Yes.

00:50:44.680 So my simple

00:50:45.480 answer to that

00:50:45.880 is absolutely

00:50:46.720 not.

00:50:47.800 It is not

00:50:48.380 possible

00:50:48.920 for a pope

00:50:50.220 to outlaw

00:50:52.140 a traditional

00:50:53.120 liturgical

00:50:53.560 right of the

00:50:54.200 church,

00:50:54.620 one that was

00:50:55.340 received and

00:50:56.240 approved by the

00:50:57.140 church of every

00:50:57.780 age prior to

00:50:58.880 him.

00:50:59.380 That's not

00:50:59.780 possible.

00:51:00.780 Why?

00:51:01.500 Because that is

00:51:02.400 like blowing up

00:51:03.340 the bridge that

00:51:04.580 connects us to

00:51:05.300 our entire

00:51:05.880 heritage and

00:51:06.640 tradition.

00:51:07.340 That is not a

00:51:08.060 Catholic mentality.

00:51:08.880 That cannot be a

00:51:09.520 Catholic mentality.

00:51:10.380 And moreover,

00:51:11.820 and this is

00:51:12.280 perhaps the

00:51:12.800 most powerful

00:51:15.360 argument,

00:51:16.640 authority exists

00:51:18.000 for the sake of

00:51:18.680 the common

00:51:19.060 good.

00:51:19.740 That is the only

00:51:20.400 justification for

00:51:21.380 the existence of

00:51:22.040 an authority.

00:51:22.780 When you have a

00:51:23.260 community of

00:51:23.640 people, they

00:51:24.260 have a certain

00:51:24.640 good or they

00:51:25.100 enjoy certain

00:51:25.680 goods together

00:51:26.200 and the

00:51:26.500 authority is

00:51:26.900 placed over

00:51:27.300 them to

00:51:27.540 ensure that

00:51:28.400 they have

00:51:28.640 access to

00:51:29.120 those goods

00:51:29.600 and that

00:51:30.560 they're

00:51:30.700 protected from

00:51:31.260 those who

00:51:31.500 are trying

00:51:31.740 to undermine

00:51:32.460 those goods.

00:51:33.780 Well, the

00:51:34.820 spiritual good

00:51:35.360 of the

00:51:35.560 faithful is

00:51:36.060 very much

00:51:36.480 wrapped up

00:51:37.020 in the

00:51:37.940 liturgical

00:51:38.280 rites, the

00:51:39.700 frequenting of

00:51:40.660 the sacraments,

00:51:41.700 and adherence

00:51:42.420 to tradition.

00:51:43.240 These things

00:51:43.640 are part of

00:51:44.360 the church's

00:51:44.920 common good.

00:51:46.020 And it's a

00:51:46.500 fact that there

00:51:47.440 are many

00:51:47.760 Catholics today

00:51:48.580 who are

00:51:49.500 nourished in

00:51:50.660 a particularly

00:51:51.340 deep way by

00:51:52.460 the traditional

00:51:53.100 rites

00:51:53.500 themselves.

00:51:54.360 In other

00:51:54.660 words, it's

00:51:55.280 not indifferent

00:51:56.020 whether you

00:51:56.820 go to this

00:51:57.360 rite or that

00:51:57.940 rite or the

00:51:58.380 other rite.

00:51:59.180 Otherwise, we

00:51:59.660 could just

00:51:59.980 send everybody

00:52:00.600 to the

00:52:00.900 Byzantine

00:52:01.260 rite or

00:52:01.640 tell all the

00:52:02.100 Byzantine

00:52:02.420 Catholics that

00:52:03.000 they should

00:52:03.260 go to the

00:52:03.540 Roman rite.

00:52:04.220 No, the

00:52:05.920 church recognizes

00:52:06.660 that people

00:52:07.120 are fed in

00:52:08.780 different ways.

00:52:10.020 And so there

00:52:11.180 are converts,

00:52:12.380 there are

00:52:12.680 reverts, there

00:52:13.800 are large

00:52:14.260 families, all

00:52:15.240 of whom are

00:52:15.900 deeply attached

00:52:16.720 to the

00:52:16.960 traditional

00:52:17.240 rites that

00:52:18.040 feed them in

00:52:18.660 a way that

00:52:19.060 the Novus

00:52:19.420 Order does

00:52:19.800 not do.

00:52:20.680 Therefore, to

00:52:21.060 attack those

00:52:21.780 traditional

00:52:22.080 rites is

00:52:22.460 directly to

00:52:23.280 attack the

00:52:23.740 common good of

00:52:24.260 the church.

00:52:25.120 And no

00:52:25.640 authority can do

00:52:26.360 that.

00:52:27.160 So we

00:52:28.360 have to be

00:52:28.640 very clear

00:52:29.100 about these

00:52:29.480 principles.

00:52:30.380 As for

00:52:30.880 priests, priests

00:52:31.940 are in a very

00:52:32.420 difficult situation

00:52:33.280 because they

00:52:34.220 owe a certain

00:52:34.920 obedience to

00:52:35.460 their bishops,

00:52:35.920 they made a

00:52:36.280 promise to

00:52:37.060 that effect,

00:52:37.980 but it's not

00:52:38.880 the vow of

00:52:40.060 obedience that's

00:52:40.700 made by a

00:52:41.220 religious.

00:52:42.300 When a

00:52:42.700 religious makes

00:52:43.160 a vow of

00:52:43.480 obedience, he

00:52:43.960 says to his

00:52:44.660 superior, you

00:52:45.880 tell me to do

00:52:46.560 anything and as

00:52:47.240 long as it's not

00:52:47.840 sinful, I will

00:52:48.660 do it.

00:52:49.280 Or you tell me

00:52:49.960 not to do

00:52:50.380 something and as

00:52:50.900 long as it's

00:52:51.200 not sinful, I

00:52:51.840 will not do

00:52:52.380 it.

00:52:52.580 But the

00:52:54.660 priest isn't in

00:52:55.560 the same

00:52:56.020 situation.

00:52:56.960 If a bishop

00:52:57.340 says to the

00:52:57.860 priest, I want

00:52:58.480 you to go to

00:52:58.920 Rome and study

00:52:59.500 canon law, the

00:53:00.480 priest can

00:53:00.780 actually say, no

00:53:01.500 thanks, I don't

00:53:02.000 want to do

00:53:02.320 that.

00:53:02.740 He's not under

00:53:03.400 a vow of

00:53:03.860 obedience in

00:53:04.380 the same way.

00:53:05.200 He's a

00:53:05.540 collaborator with

00:53:06.680 the bishop.

00:53:07.600 So the priest

00:53:08.240 has rights and

00:53:09.200 he has duties.

00:53:10.580 And he's not

00:53:11.180 just a sort of

00:53:11.780 pawn that the

00:53:12.860 bishop can move

00:53:13.460 around however

00:53:14.000 he wants to.

00:53:16.240 And so sometimes

00:53:17.260 people conflate

00:53:18.360 religious obedience

00:53:19.420 with priestly

00:53:20.140 obedience, and

00:53:20.680 that's a big

00:53:21.100 mistake.

00:53:21.380 They say, look

00:53:22.280 at what Padre

00:53:22.840 Pio did.

00:53:23.580 Okay, well,

00:53:23.980 Padre Pio was

00:53:24.560 a Capuchin.

00:53:25.280 He had a

00:53:25.560 religious vow

00:53:26.000 of obedience.

00:53:26.620 It's a

00:53:26.820 different thing.

00:53:28.780 But what

00:53:29.860 should priests

00:53:30.340 do?

00:53:30.600 Well, they

00:53:31.040 need to

00:53:31.520 recognize that

00:53:32.200 if they give

00:53:32.960 in to this

00:53:33.660 tyranny, this

00:53:34.920 tyranny against

00:53:35.940 the common

00:53:36.340 good, against

00:53:36.960 the rights of

00:53:37.460 the faithful,

00:53:38.100 even against

00:53:38.640 the good of

00:53:39.220 their own

00:53:39.500 priesthood, they

00:53:41.160 will be

00:53:41.660 actually supporting

00:53:42.880 an evil in

00:53:44.140 the church.

00:53:44.640 They will be

00:53:45.020 part of the

00:53:46.120 abusive system

00:53:47.060 and not part

00:53:47.700 of the solution

00:53:48.240 to it.

00:53:49.260 And so I

00:53:49.720 think it's, I

00:53:50.200 mean, I'm

00:53:50.680 very, very

00:53:51.240 strong about

00:53:52.200 this point when

00:53:52.940 I speak to

00:53:53.780 priests, either

00:53:54.260 personally or

00:53:54.900 through correspondence.

00:53:56.400 Don't be

00:53:57.120 another wolf

00:53:58.040 among the

00:53:58.660 shepherds.

00:53:59.880 You need to

00:54:00.440 be a shepherd.

00:54:01.180 You need to

00:54:01.540 keep shepherding

00:54:02.260 your people,

00:54:02.840 even if that

00:54:03.360 means going

00:54:03.880 underground,

00:54:04.920 it means, you

00:54:05.780 know, having

00:54:06.340 mass in a

00:54:06.900 barn the way

00:54:07.700 that the

00:54:07.980 priest had to

00:54:08.460 do after the

00:54:09.020 French Revolution.

00:54:10.180 Whatever it

00:54:10.700 takes, keep

00:54:11.660 the tradition

00:54:12.200 going, right?

00:54:13.320 There is no

00:54:13.920 one on earth

00:54:14.460 who can stop

00:54:15.000 you from doing

00:54:15.460 that.

00:54:15.780 And I

00:54:17.140 talk about

00:54:17.500 this a little

00:54:17.840 bit more, by

00:54:18.260 the way, in

00:54:18.600 my book, my

00:54:19.420 booklet, True

00:54:19.940 Obedience.

00:54:20.600 I give lots

00:54:21.480 more arguments

00:54:22.540 and references

00:54:23.200 there.

00:54:25.040 So I have

00:54:26.040 one sort of

00:54:26.680 insider baseball

00:54:27.720 question, and

00:54:28.440 it's very

00:54:29.000 strange to me,

00:54:29.620 it always has

00:54:30.020 been.

00:54:31.520 There was a

00:54:32.400 bull called

00:54:32.860 Quote Primum

00:54:33.560 that was very

00:54:35.200 straightforward about

00:54:37.100 the traditional

00:54:38.180 Latin mass, how

00:54:39.340 it could be

00:54:40.000 said for all

00:54:41.440 eternity, but

00:54:41.940 no one could

00:54:42.760 abrogate it at

00:54:43.740 all.

00:54:44.980 But it was

00:54:46.520 then changed

00:54:47.220 in 1962, and

00:54:48.460 now the whole

00:54:48.960 conversation is

00:54:49.560 about the

00:54:49.900 1962 mass, not

00:54:51.900 the one that

00:54:52.980 was with Quote

00:54:54.440 Primum.

00:54:55.160 Can you unpack

00:54:55.960 that for us?

00:54:56.660 I've always been

00:54:57.500 confused by that.

00:54:58.740 Sure.

00:54:59.340 So I think

00:55:00.160 people make,

00:55:02.280 there are

00:55:02.960 mistakes that

00:55:03.740 are easy to

00:55:04.300 make when

00:55:04.660 you're dealing

00:55:05.040 with legal

00:55:06.000 documents in

00:55:07.760 the church's

00:55:08.660 legal tradition.

00:55:10.020 So there are

00:55:10.640 aspects of

00:55:11.560 Quote Primum

00:55:12.300 which are

00:55:13.560 which are

00:55:14.800 you might

00:55:15.720 say, what's

00:55:17.940 the word I

00:55:18.260 want, there

00:55:18.920 are timeless

00:55:19.500 aspects to

00:55:20.280 it, and

00:55:20.940 there are

00:55:21.260 time-bound or

00:55:22.580 changeable

00:55:23.020 aspects to

00:55:23.660 it.

00:55:24.260 In as much

00:55:24.900 as you're

00:55:25.680 talking about

00:55:26.100 the details

00:55:26.720 of the

00:55:27.040 liturgy, like

00:55:27.760 having a

00:55:29.320 feast, adding

00:55:30.140 a feast for

00:55:30.720 a new saint

00:55:31.400 who is canonized

00:55:32.840 after 1570, or

00:55:34.600 adding a new

00:55:35.180 preface as the

00:55:36.200 Vatican did just

00:55:36.980 a few years

00:55:37.560 ago, they

00:55:37.940 added to the

00:55:38.820 Missal, you

00:55:39.840 know, a special

00:55:40.320 preface, for

00:55:41.020 example, for

00:55:41.500 Corpus

00:55:41.800 Christi, or

00:55:42.500 for Mass

00:55:43.220 Honor of the

00:55:43.600 Eucharist.

00:55:45.340 When it comes

00:55:46.140 to small

00:55:46.620 changes like

00:55:47.220 that, obviously

00:55:48.400 Pius V wasn't

00:55:49.400 saying you can

00:55:50.360 never add a

00:55:51.140 new feast or

00:55:51.740 you can never

00:55:52.180 add a new

00:55:52.700 preface.

00:55:54.580 So the

00:55:55.320 subsequent

00:55:55.800 editions of

00:55:56.880 his own

00:55:57.500 Missal that

00:55:58.480 came out

00:55:59.000 made small

00:55:59.660 changes like

00:56:00.340 that.

00:56:01.120 However, they

00:56:02.320 did not make

00:56:02.920 a revolutionary

00:56:03.620 change.

00:56:04.320 They didn't

00:56:04.740 rupture the

00:56:05.900 Missal of

00:56:06.320 Pius V,

00:56:07.640 rupture from

00:56:09.140 it.

00:56:09.940 And that's

00:56:10.280 important because

00:56:10.800 Pius V didn't

00:56:11.560 create a Missal,

00:56:12.340 as some

00:56:12.680 people say

00:56:13.240 ignorantly, but

00:56:14.400 he simply

00:56:14.980 codified and

00:56:16.100 as it were

00:56:16.520 canonized the

00:56:17.800 pre-existing

00:56:18.360 Missal of the

00:56:19.480 Church of

00:56:19.840 Rome that

00:56:20.440 went back

00:56:20.880 centuries before

00:56:21.760 that.

00:56:22.140 You can find a

00:56:22.900 Missal almost

00:56:23.800 identical to

00:56:24.680 Pius V's

00:56:25.300 Missal in the

00:56:26.820 time of

00:56:27.140 Innocent III,

00:56:28.400 who was

00:56:28.760 Pope centuries

00:56:29.640 before Pius V.

00:56:31.260 So Pius V was

00:56:32.680 simply codifying

00:56:33.900 the Roman

00:56:34.720 tradition, having

00:56:35.800 purged it of

00:56:36.580 certain errors

00:56:37.800 that had

00:56:38.220 crept in, as

00:56:39.680 they do.

00:56:40.160 I mean, especially

00:56:40.620 when you're

00:56:41.360 copying manuscripts

00:56:42.180 or when you

00:56:43.180 have typography

00:56:44.440 in its early

00:56:45.120 phases, there

00:56:45.820 are going to

00:56:46.260 be mistakes

00:56:46.800 that creep

00:56:47.200 in.

00:56:47.440 So there

00:56:47.920 were some

00:56:48.220 corrections

00:56:48.660 made, but

00:56:49.160 they were

00:56:49.420 very minor

00:56:50.200 compared to

00:56:50.940 what was

00:56:51.560 done under

00:56:52.840 Paul VI.

00:56:53.620 Really

00:56:53.900 insignificant

00:56:55.000 compared to

00:56:55.640 that.

00:56:57.380 So what

00:56:58.140 Quo Primum is

00:56:59.240 really enshrining

00:57:00.200 and recognizing

00:57:00.900 is not Pius V's

00:57:02.080 product, but the

00:57:03.320 tradition of the

00:57:04.040 Church of Rome

00:57:04.680 as a gold

00:57:05.540 standard.

00:57:06.860 And this is

00:57:07.320 where you get

00:57:07.760 to a key

00:57:08.220 point.

00:57:09.380 Inasmuch as

00:57:10.060 the liturgy

00:57:10.480 is a confession

00:57:11.100 of faith,

00:57:11.940 it's the

00:57:12.260 Lex Orandi

00:57:13.140 that corresponds

00:57:14.140 to and

00:57:15.100 expresses the

00:57:15.700 Lex Credendi,

00:57:16.540 so the law

00:57:16.980 of praying

00:57:17.400 that tells

00:57:17.900 us what

00:57:18.580 we believe

00:57:19.200 as Catholics.

00:57:20.840 To that

00:57:21.200 extent, the

00:57:21.940 Missal of

00:57:22.420 Pius V is

00:57:23.160 a dogmatic

00:57:24.880 confession of

00:57:25.520 the Catholic

00:57:25.900 faith against

00:57:26.540 the errors of

00:57:27.160 the Protestants

00:57:27.740 who were

00:57:28.000 condemned at

00:57:29.720 the Council

00:57:30.120 of Trent.

00:57:31.360 And so the

00:57:32.160 Missal of

00:57:32.540 Pius V isn't

00:57:33.300 just a

00:57:34.240 set of

00:57:36.840 ceremonies or

00:57:37.600 rituals that

00:57:38.180 has no

00:57:38.780 dogmatic

00:57:39.660 implications.

00:57:40.540 No, it's a

00:57:41.200 form of the

00:57:41.940 profession of

00:57:42.660 the Catholic

00:57:43.080 faith, especially

00:57:44.040 against the

00:57:44.600 errors of the

00:57:45.120 Protestants.

00:57:46.600 And so to

00:57:47.060 that extent, to

00:57:48.580 cancel out the

00:57:49.620 Missal of

00:57:50.060 Pius V is

00:57:50.980 actually an

00:57:51.640 anti-dogmatic

00:57:52.540 statement.

00:57:53.380 It's a

00:57:53.980 statement against

00:57:54.780 the faith.

00:57:55.880 You can't do

00:57:56.620 that.

00:57:56.820 That's part of

00:57:57.240 the reason

00:57:57.520 why Pius V

00:57:59.120 is right to

00:57:59.740 say this

00:58:00.320 mass can

00:58:01.440 always be

00:58:02.160 used, just

00:58:03.100 like the

00:58:03.420 Catholic faith

00:58:03.940 can always

00:58:04.540 be professed

00:58:05.380 through it.

00:58:07.560 So I guess

00:58:08.900 what I'm

00:58:09.080 saying is

00:58:09.400 in as much

00:58:09.960 as the

00:58:10.680 Tridentine

00:58:11.220 mass

00:58:11.580 encapsulates

00:58:13.220 the tradition

00:58:13.780 of Rome

00:58:14.260 and encapsulates

00:58:15.500 the Catholic

00:58:15.980 faith, to

00:58:17.040 that extent

00:58:17.640 it is not

00:58:18.520 changeable and

00:58:19.540 it is not

00:58:20.620 abrogatable.

00:58:23.380 And this is

00:58:24.140 in fact what

00:58:24.640 Benedict XVI

00:58:25.340 said.

00:58:25.900 I mean, I

00:58:26.180 know this is a

00:58:26.680 famous quote,

00:58:27.300 but I just

00:58:27.620 have to share

00:58:28.200 it with you

00:58:28.620 because he

00:58:29.140 says it so

00:58:29.800 explicitly.

00:58:30.320 He says

00:58:31.720 what earlier

00:58:33.580 generations held

00:58:34.780 as sacred

00:58:35.540 remains sacred

00:58:37.220 and great

00:58:37.680 for us

00:58:38.280 too, and

00:58:39.360 it cannot,

00:58:40.300 cannot be

00:58:41.740 all of a

00:58:42.260 sudden entirely

00:58:43.100 forbidden or

00:58:43.960 even considered

00:58:44.840 harmful.

00:58:46.700 So Benedict's

00:58:47.820 claim is not

00:58:48.700 well, as a

00:58:51.280 disciplinary measure

00:58:52.140 I'm letting

00:58:52.580 people have

00:58:53.040 access to

00:58:53.500 this missile,

00:58:54.000 but we could

00:58:54.360 abolish it if

00:58:54.940 we wanted

00:58:55.240 to.

00:58:55.960 It's a

00:58:56.380 theological

00:58:56.860 claim that

00:58:57.540 it cannot

00:58:58.160 be abolished.

00:58:59.620 That's what

00:59:02.700 Cool Premium is

00:59:03.400 talking about.

00:59:05.720 Fascinating.

00:59:06.980 Peter, where

00:59:07.760 can people get

00:59:08.440 your book?

00:59:10.060 And then I'd

00:59:11.680 love to hear

00:59:12.020 your closing

00:59:12.400 thoughts.

00:59:13.600 Sure.

00:59:14.240 Yes.

00:59:14.580 Well, here's

00:59:14.920 what the cover

00:59:16.040 looks like.

00:59:17.420 You can see

00:59:18.000 it there.

00:59:19.100 This book

00:59:19.860 was published

00:59:20.580 by Tan

00:59:21.220 Publishers.

00:59:23.100 I'm very proud

00:59:24.560 to have a book

00:59:25.080 with Tan,

00:59:25.760 the good old

00:59:26.560 publisher of

00:59:27.120 Michael Davies

00:59:27.780 back in the

00:59:28.300 day.

00:59:29.620 who's a

00:59:30.460 hero of

00:59:30.860 mine and

00:59:31.420 an inspiration.

00:59:33.100 But anyway,

00:59:33.400 you can get

00:59:33.760 it directly

00:59:34.240 from Tan

00:59:34.880 if you want

00:59:35.980 to avoid

00:59:36.520 Amazon,

00:59:37.400 but you can

00:59:37.700 also get

00:59:38.000 it from

00:59:38.180 Amazon and

00:59:38.660 the other

00:59:38.940 online

00:59:39.440 distributors.

00:59:42.340 And as

00:59:42.740 far as

00:59:43.440 closing

00:59:43.780 thoughts are

00:59:44.340 concerned,

00:59:46.500 I think

00:59:47.180 that the

00:59:47.540 tradition of

00:59:48.120 the church

00:59:48.520 is so

00:59:49.000 powerful,

00:59:49.720 so beautiful,

00:59:50.580 so true,

00:59:51.780 so holy,

00:59:53.580 that it

00:59:54.700 cannot be

00:59:56.100 extinguished.

00:59:57.020 The Vatican

00:59:57.540 can fulminate,

00:59:59.280 they can

00:59:59.620 condemn,

01:00:00.380 they can

01:00:00.580 abolish,

01:00:01.100 they can

01:00:01.300 do whatever

01:00:01.660 they want,

01:00:02.240 but they

01:00:02.720 can't

01:00:03.240 actually

01:00:03.880 quench

01:00:04.420 a movement

01:00:05.360 that involves

01:00:06.200 millions of

01:00:07.020 faithful Catholics,

01:00:08.240 thousands of

01:00:08.760 priests and

01:00:09.180 religious.

01:00:09.920 They will

01:00:10.400 fail.

01:00:11.260 This unjust

01:00:12.000 attack will

01:00:12.980 fail.

01:00:14.040 And thanks be

01:00:14.660 to God for

01:00:15.120 that.

01:00:16.840 Amen to

01:00:17.480 that.

01:00:18.760 Dr. Peter

01:00:19.520 Kwasniewski,

01:00:20.140 thank you so

01:00:20.620 much for

01:00:20.900 joining us.

01:00:22.080 Thank you,

01:00:22.380 John Henry.

01:00:23.500 God bless you,

01:00:24.620 and God bless

01:00:25.560 all of you,

01:00:26.620 and we'll

01:00:26.900 see you next

01:00:27.240 time.

01:00:30.040 Hi, everyone,

01:00:30.820 this is John

01:00:31.240 Henry Weston.

01:00:31.960 We hope you

01:00:32.380 enjoyed this

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01:00:48.580 may God bless

01:00:49.000 you.

01:00:55.560 Peace.

01:00:56.380 Bye.

01:00:56.880 Bye.

01:00:58.860 Bye.

01:01:01.320 Bye.

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01:01:13.360 Bye.

The John-Henry Westen Show - February 01, 2023

Battle of the Bishops： Latin Mass Wars Have Now Intensified

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