Athanasius Schneider is the Auxiliary Bishop of Astana in Kazakhstan, and has been a bishop for over twenty-five years. In this episode, Bishop Schneider talks about the coronavirus, the deprivation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for the faithful, whether priests should obey their bishops' orders to deny the sacraments, and whether this pandemic is a chastisement from God connected to the warnings of Our Lady of Fatima in 1917.
00:04:16.240For me, it is first for the church to awaken, to be more serious in these moments when we are
00:04:27.020deprived almost all Catholics all over the world of holy mass and the sacraments.
00:04:34.700It is a divine appeal to the priests, to the bishops, to the Pope to reflect, to repent, to ask
00:04:46.720forgiveness of God for all sins which were committed in the last decades inside the church.
00:04:57.020But especially those sins which were committed in connection with the sacraments, and especially
00:05:06.520the holy mass, the Eucharist, the holy communion.
00:05:12.040And now almost all are deprived from holy communion.
00:05:15.980And so maybe God says, you have outraged me.
00:05:22.140You have trampled me by feet 50 years in the churches.
00:05:28.500And now you have, God had taken away this for a moment, of course.
00:05:35.680And this is, sometimes God did this in the history of salvation to admonish his people, his children.
00:05:49.320And so it is a judgment of God, a punishment, but a punishment of a loving father who wants to awaken
00:06:00.100his children who wants to, that their children come closer to him through these extraordinary signs and to repent and also to have a deeper esteem of the sacraments, especially of the holy mass.
00:06:20.280This is, for me, a first observation of all this sad situation caused by the so-called coronavirus epidemic.
00:06:37.420This is something of a difficult concept, I'd say, because if it is a chastisement, a warning
00:06:44.980from the Lord, as you said, a loving warning, then if there is no repentance, which there
00:06:51.020doesn't really seem to be at this point, particularly in the areas that you mentioned regarding the
00:06:55.360church, because of the mistreatment of our Lord and the Holy Eucharist, the reception of the Holy Communion in the hand, which leads to
00:07:02.980the trampling upon Jesus in the various particles left over on people's hands, and therefore brushed onto the floor, as you were
00:07:10.160So, if it is a chastisement, or the loving warning from the Lord, will it end if there's no repentance?
00:07:17.140And it surely doesn't seem right now to repentance is happening.
00:07:22.740Yes, I'm agreeing with you, because even our Lord speaks in the gospel to his people, saying to them that you had not recognized the visitation of God.
00:07:47.440When he spoke to Jerusalem, and he was weeping about Jerusalem, and saying, you will be destroyed by the enemies, because you have not recognized the signs which God gave you.
00:08:03.660This, for me, is a free translation of what our Lord said, but this is the meaning.
00:08:08.560And so, this is now the chance for the church, for the Pope, for the bishops, for the faithful, to make acts of repentance, of expiation, reparation, public reparation for all the sins, firstly committed against our Lord in the most blessed sacrament.
00:08:36.420And, and, and then against the commandments, I would say the first commandment, you have, you shall not have other gods.
00:08:47.940So, all these sins which were committed in the church against the first commandment, for example, recently also we have known last year's, last year, and, and so they have to ask the bishops.
00:09:06.420The priest, we can, we can start with acts of reparation, why not individually, then in a family, and hopefully when this lockdown will be ended, then also publicly in the churches and make processions.
00:09:25.200But I think we have to ask the Holy Father to pray that God may illuminate him, that he himself will give an example to make acts of reparation together with the cardinals publicly, first for the sins and for the mistreatment outrages against our Lord in the Eucharist, which were committed inside the church.
00:09:51.260And as a repeat, and then against other sins, but also the Pope and the bishops and the priests have to make also public acts of reparation for the extreme crime, extremely great crimes of the humanity of our age,
00:10:17.260which is the most horrible crime, which is the most horrible crime, the abortion, the killing of innocent children in the womb of their mothers.
00:10:28.300These we have to do also our reparation, public, and, and then also the, the sins against the Sixth Commandment, specifically the sins against holy matrimony, marriage.
00:10:49.600These are only, for example, these are only, for example, concrete acts we have to do this.
00:10:56.300Absolutely. One of the things that's, that's most shocking or upsetting, if you will, for Catholics, is that the Pope has indeed spoken about coronavirus, but he spoke of it not as a chastisement from God, but as a response of the earth, he said.
00:11:12.860He's in fact said something like this now four times, most recently on Earth Day, April 22nd, he spoke of the virus as Earth's response for our having failed to look after the environment, a kind of a revenge or punishment of the earth for failing to address climate change, is what he said at another time.
00:11:31.900Well, the Pope, when he spoke of the Pope, he did not spoke of this ex cathedra, as an infallible judgment, so, and this is concerning the climate and the earth, these are temporal realities.
00:11:54.200So, in these issues, the Pope can commit errors, and this is legitimate, we can say, with respect to the Most Holy Father, we think this is our error, and present the arguments most deeper.
00:12:14.480Therefore, we have to look at all the events, specifically, very important and grievous events in the history, as today and now we are experiencing and living through, always also in a supernatural view.
00:12:37.240And so, the Pope has to have, firstly, a supernatural view, as our Lord Jesus Christ always did, a supernatural view, the apostles, the great saints, the prophets, so, in this way.
00:12:52.880But, at least, we have one thing common, at least, the Pope speaks of punishment, chastisement, but in another way, but from the earth, maybe, but I'm not agreeing with this, but the true sign of warning, this is the meaning of chastisement and punishment from God,
00:13:20.880this is a warning of the loving Father, this is, should be for a person who sees and looks at the events from a supernatural point of view, this should be very clear and evident.
00:13:40.440Well, one of the great hardships is that people are deprived of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and what has been happening all over the world is that priests have been forbidden by their bishops, even to offer private celebration of the Mass for their parishioners.
00:13:58.860So, there's all sorts of ways to do it safely, according to the regulations, similar to those used in grocery stores.
00:14:05.760People six feet apart, perhaps wearing a mask, they could easily be done in churches, but it's being forbidden in most places.
00:14:14.540Now, you've said on a previous interview that such demands from bishops are not legitimate, and that priests can ignore them.
00:14:22.860Yes, this is an obvious abuse of authority, abuse of his powers.
00:14:34.120Never did God give to a bishop the authority, the power, to forbid celebrating Mass.
00:14:42.780Of course, observing all due health safety measures, protection, this is, of course, obvious, but he cannot just prohibit celebration of Mass.
00:15:05.300And in the times of the plague and the epidemic in the Middle Ages, and even in the 16th century, St. Charles Borromeo in Milan, he obliged the priests to celebrate Mass and to ask God, through the celebration of Mass, forgiveness for the sins which were committed to the Mass.
00:15:35.300Because the plague, St. Charles, because the plague, St. Charles considered as a chastisement, as a warning of God.
00:15:42.100And so he asked the priests to celebrate the Mass.
00:15:45.800Yes, and even so, he closed for a time, the big churches to protect people from the contagion of the plague, which was a very, more dangerous than the coronavirus, because in the plague, the mortality rate was until 90%, sometimes.
00:16:10.800This is, this is, this is no comparison with coronavirus, I mean, but even so, St. Charles Borromeo, Cardinal Borromeo, he ordered that the priests should celebrate Holy Masses in public squares, public places, on the streets, on the corner of the streets, to multiply Masses,
00:16:34.800so that people could assist from their windows, open windows from the doors, and so, this was, even so, in those times, the plague, it was more dangerous and more contagious than our coronavirus.
00:16:55.240And therefore, this priest, when the bishop forbids them even to celebrate private Mass and to give sacraments to dying persons and to sick persons, in these cases, the priest has not to obey the bishop, because we have to obey first God.
00:17:16.240And in this case, this bishop is committing a grievous sin of abuse of his powers.
00:17:26.240So, in this case, we have many priests wondering what they can do now.
00:17:35.040Their bishops are permitting them to celebrate private Masses, but only themselves, without any of the faithful at all.
00:17:42.260And not only that, but also not to go to the homes of parishioners to offer private Masses there, nor even, in most cases, to have outdoor Masses with the public safe distances apart.
00:17:55.860And so, I want to be clear that we're talking about orders from bishops like that.
00:18:07.860Well, it depends on the places and on the laws of the government, of the civil authorities.
00:18:16.220If the civil authorities permit, I don't know, in different countries, we have to check this, but if there is...
00:18:27.720Most of them are permitted to have grocery stores open, liquor stores open.
00:18:33.060If there is, for example, not forbidden that you can visit a family, why not to celebrate their Mass, when it is not forbidden by the government?
00:18:48.100So, the bishops should, on the contrary, be happy that priests are, in some way, creative and have a zeal for the faithful and try to find a creative solution in some way still not contradicting and not infringing the laws of the state.
00:19:15.260This is one of the areas that has become very difficult, because laws in many places have actually followed that the bishops have done or not done, what the bishops have done or not done.
00:19:27.920Because you have grocery, beer, and liquor stores open because they are deemed essential services.
00:19:34.420Yet it appears that the bishops have not insisted with the government that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is an essential service.
00:19:40.980So, people are allowed to go to a grocery store while not being allowed to go to Mass, even though, particularly at daily Masses, there would often be many fewer people in the Mass than at a grocery store.
00:19:54.620Yes, in this case, I think this was, in some cases, a grievous omission on the part of some bishops, because the bishops and the bishops' conferences and even the Holy See should insist in the governments to give to the churches at least the same rights and chances.
00:20:23.620As they give to the stores, as they give to the stores where people can buy food.
00:20:32.600So, the same prescriptions, if people can go to the stores and to buy something, so the same way they can go to the church, observing the same health protection measures.
00:20:49.760And so, this should have been the method of the bishops and the Holy See to insist upon them.
00:21:02.280Otherwise, if the government denies the same rights as they give to the stores, then this is discrimination of the religion, evidently, and a kind of implicit persecution of the church.
00:21:22.340So, just a couple of days ago, there came an announcement from
00:21:52.320England that this extreme social distancing will be extended till after Christmas, which would mean a year or more without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
00:22:02.880It is evident by these measures, this is completely against every reasonableness of proportionality.
00:22:15.120It is evident, there is no proportionality because the coronavirus epidemic has not so heavy mortality.
00:22:27.800And with good protection health measures, we can have worship in churches.
00:22:41.680Now, in Germany and in Austria, next month in May, they will slowly open the churches and give the permission to, in Berlin, for example, from the beginning of May,
00:22:58.040they will be allowed public worship for a number of 50 persons, for example.
00:23:04.160In other places, 15 persons, in other places, 15 persons, but at least.
00:23:08.300So, in this way, the measures which you mentioned for Great Britain, England, it is completely against every proportionality.
00:23:22.620And it is revealing itself to be a kind of discrimination and persecution of the church.
00:23:33.640So, it could be that we are going to a time of the catacombs, the church, a kind of underground church.
00:23:44.460But we have not to be fearful, we have to be courageous, and because the church has a long and good experience to be a catacomb church, to be an underground church.
00:24:02.280And in those times of catacombs, God gave plenty of spiritual fruits for the renewal of the church.
00:24:12.860Maybe it is a visitation of the church, an intervention to purify the church through a persecution, to my opinion, that could otherwise, the church could not be purified and awakened in our time.
00:24:29.480Because the confusion, the heresies, in doctrine, in morals, in liturgy, were so widespread and so deep penetrated in the life of the church.
00:24:46.560That, to my opinion, that should be a very strong intervention by divine providence to awaken the church.
00:24:57.380And maybe the persecution, a kind of persecution, a kind of time of catacombs, would be good for the church also.
00:25:10.380But in any case, it is the Lord who has all in his hands.
00:25:17.540It is the Lord who will determine the time of the catacombs, the time of the persecution, not the governments.
00:25:37.300And so we have to be, we have to be, we have to have this trust, this hope, and to live, even in this difficult situation, our Christian faith, with joy.
00:26:02.500And to strengthen now in this situation, the family, because now we are forced almost all over the world to be at home.
00:26:12.260So to develop the virtues of the family, to transmit the faith in family, to be domestic churches.
00:26:22.680You've had a lot of experience with that.
00:26:26.020And in your book, Christ is Vincent, which, by the way, I encourage everyone to get a copy of, which has, it's had much, much praise from around the world.
00:26:34.500But there's a specific reason why it's important right now to get the book Christ is Vincent by Bishop Schneider.
00:26:41.260Because if they get it, and they haven't already done so, you'll be able to read, they'll be able to read that you yourself experienced this deprivation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
00:26:52.080Why don't you tell us a little bit about that now, and what you and your family did then?
00:26:56.140Yes, I did this experience, and therefore I speak with knowledge, with experience, personal.
00:27:07.520And this gives me the conviction that even this difficult time, which we are now witnessing, will bear fruits for our faith, for our church, for the renewal of the church.
00:27:25.920So we have to accept this from the hands of God, but at the same time, as did the first Christians, the so-called apologetics, apologists, to be also defenders of the rights of the Christians.
00:27:49.420We have, in this time, and specifically, it should do the Holy See and the Episcopates, to protest when there is a discrimination, unreasonable, unproportional prohibition of the worship.
00:28:09.380We have to protest, and to make an apology, to defend the rights of the Christians.
00:28:24.620One of the things that comes up in your book that some have talked to me about is your admonition to families to be open to life.
00:28:31.000You actually took issue with terms such as natural family planning and responsible parenthood, because they seem to sort of limit God's control and put men in control.
00:28:41.980And a question that sort of developed out of that was, how can a couple then, if they have to, space their children?
00:28:47.860Is it wrong to abstain from sexual activity when you sort of know, through that natural family planning, when those fertile periods are?
00:29:04.200It is that a Christian Catholic couple, they have to, together, in the presence of God, to decide, to ask the strength, the light, to be simply generous.
00:29:26.100To make this act of trust, to make this act of trust, say, oh Lord, you are the giver of life.
00:29:34.260You should have the last word, not we.