The John-Henry Westen Show - November 15, 2023


Bishop Schneider responds to Archbishop ViganĂ² on papal legitimacy


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Length

25 minutes

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132.38268

Word count

3,339

Sentence count

235

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1

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6

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Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano wrote a piece where he gave several arguments, but one wasn t so much about deposing Pope Francis as much as about questioning Pope Francis' actual acquisition of the papacy. What does this mean for the laity and for the church? Is it possible that Pope Francis went into becoming Pope with an agenda?

Transcript

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00:00:00.000 And because the entire faith of the church is stronger,
00:00:04.620 the church can endure an erring pope
00:00:07.780 because he is not eternal.
00:00:10.980 It's common sense.
00:00:12.460 We have to apply, beside the supernatural vision,
00:00:17.220 simply common sense, practical sense,
00:00:21.660 know the history of the church,
00:00:23.760 and say this case is unresolvable.
00:00:30.000 Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano wrote a piece
00:00:37.540 where he gave several arguments,
00:00:41.260 but one wasn't so much about deposing Pope Francis
00:00:44.800 as much as it was about questioning
00:00:47.540 Pope Francis' actual acquiring the papacy.
00:00:52.120 So sort of a pre...
00:00:54.520 What he was talking about was the mens rea,
00:00:56.560 or the intent with which Pope Francis went into the papacy.
00:01:01.580 And for the laity, it makes a lot of sense
00:01:03.440 because when we enter into marriage,
00:01:05.880 if we intend to never have children
00:01:08.680 or intend not to be faithful to our spouse,
00:01:12.100 the marriage, even though we might go through the ceremony
00:01:14.240 and so on, would be invalid.
00:01:16.700 And what Archbishop Vigano presented
00:01:19.820 was that he seems to him to be clear
00:01:23.800 that Pope Francis went into the acceptance of the papacy
00:01:27.780 with an agenda.
00:01:28.940 We get that from the biography from Cardinal Daniels
00:01:32.540 that he is in a program.
00:01:34.400 It very much seems, if anybody read it,
00:01:37.080 he's following the program of Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini.
00:01:40.520 If you read his 1972 dream for the church,
00:01:43.260 it almost seems, almost verbatim, what we're doing.
00:01:48.000 So his suggestion was perhaps Pope Francis,
00:01:52.920 in accepting the papacy, went in with such an agenda
00:01:55.680 and therefore, like with a marriage,
00:01:57.440 if you go in with an agenda to not do the ends of marriage
00:02:02.180 or not do the ends of the sacrament
00:02:03.340 or to, in his case, the ends of the pope,
00:02:05.880 would be to protect, defend the doctrine of the church.
00:02:09.640 So what do you make of Archbishop Vigano's argument
00:02:13.060 in that sense?
00:02:14.740 These are very weak arguments, completely weak.
00:02:18.000 Without basis.
00:02:19.520 First, how you cannot compare the papacy with a sacrament.
00:02:24.560 It's not a sacrament.
00:02:26.060 So therefore, this argument is not applicable to here.
00:02:29.500 Second, the church always, there's an axiom of the church,
00:02:33.520 the internis non judicat ecclesia,
00:02:37.400 about the interior things.
00:02:40.160 The church has no power to judge.
00:02:41.920 What is your intention?
00:02:43.620 It's only God knows how we can know.
00:02:45.400 Even when there are some elements which we can deduce,
00:02:51.240 as you mentioned, this is too weak.
00:02:53.020 Because in the last moment, a person can change.
00:02:57.040 Even in the moment of election, he can change and say,
00:03:01.180 no, I have no these intentions, which I had before the election.
00:03:03.940 So you see, this is so weak, and in the air, hypothesis in the air,
00:03:10.980 it is impossible to apply this in this case.
00:03:15.040 It's completely subjectivistic and arbitrary.
00:03:19.100 So this we could apply to many popes.
00:03:22.720 Let us say the popes of the Saeculum Obuscurum,
00:03:25.760 in the 10th century, who were put into papacy by the mafia,
00:03:34.100 the Roman mafia families, their sons, their immoral sons. 0.70
00:03:39.080 John XII was put with 18, 19 years, an immoral young man. 0.80
00:03:45.640 And he had no intention, at least as he lived before he was put,
00:03:50.640 he lived a dissolute life,
00:03:52.680 and he was only to have the papacy to have power and money.
00:03:57.120 And this he did.
00:03:57.840 And he lived all his pontificate,
00:04:01.120 even the official Roman description of the popes after their death.
00:04:10.420 It was written about him, the Holy See, the qualification of his pontificate
00:04:16.840 after his death.
00:04:18.360 This pope lived his pontificate only in adultery and vanity.
00:04:25.860 This was all.
00:04:26.540 And so he did.
00:04:28.600 And so, indeed, but he was recognized as a valid pope, always.
00:04:33.040 No one said, oh, maybe he had an intention only to gain the papacy
00:04:37.540 for having money and pleasures, what he had, basically.
00:04:42.600 And so we have other cases also.
00:04:45.140 Therefore, this argument is completely weak, not applicable.
00:04:48.800 Second, it's more basic, which these people do not observe.
00:04:52.760 It says that in cases of an invalid election, let us say there was simony
00:05:02.460 or several cases of several cases of invalid elections.
00:05:09.160 From the moment, it is a practice of the church.
00:05:13.100 It was not a norm written, but practice.
00:05:16.360 But 2,000-year practice is strong.
00:05:19.120 And so the church behaved in the moment when one is elected, even with doubts.
00:05:31.560 From the moment when the electors themselves, the cardinals, start to name him as a pope,
00:05:39.260 they were the electors.
00:05:40.260 And the entire episcopacy, and the entire episcopacy, from this moment, he is the true pope.
00:05:45.800 And eventual irregularities of intention of an election of bribe or simony are healed in this moment
00:05:58.740 because of the entire church, because the election of a papacy is not a divine law.
00:06:06.200 So this is the error also of Archbishop ViganĂ² and similar people.
00:06:10.540 There are so much exalting, simply rules of an election, which are human rules, not divine,
00:06:20.640 to the category of untouchable, infallible, divine rules.
00:06:25.640 And the method of the election of a pope, it's only a method.
00:06:31.480 It's human.
00:06:33.340 It's not an absolute value.
00:06:34.920 And unfortunately, Archbishop ViganĂ² gives de facto an absolute value to the norms of the conclave.
00:06:46.260 And this is not corresponding to the, I say, to the praxis of the church.
00:06:51.320 And this is common sense.
00:06:54.400 Then we will have a completely disaster.
00:06:57.980 No one knows who is the supreme pastor of the church.
00:07:02.360 They start the doubts.
00:07:03.340 And to eliminate this greater evil for the church, the doubts, who is the pastor,
00:07:10.280 or to establishing a second one, and then will be an entire schism.
00:07:16.540 This is worse, this evil.
00:07:19.360 Then to accept a formally, invalidly elected pope who will basically accept it by the entire church.
00:07:28.600 So, I repeat, the norms is the church, the entire episcopacy.
00:07:34.840 He's the pope.
00:07:36.840 The majority.
00:07:38.920 And during a period of time.
00:07:42.200 And the people.
00:07:44.280 Because, I repeat, the pope is not an absolute, how do you say, norm.
00:07:51.420 The elections and the pope is not the church itself.
00:07:54.220 He's only a server.
00:07:55.920 Servant of the servants of God.
00:07:57.620 Hello, friends.
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00:08:41.060 May God bless you.
00:08:41.560 These questions are very difficult because I know you've read Universi Dominici Gregius, the 1992 Constitution of Pope John Paul II with regard to the election of the Roman Pontiff.
00:08:54.980 Archbishop, in paragraph 76, spoke about, laid out the rules, of course, in the document for the election of the Roman Pontiff.
00:09:01.720 But then in paragraph 76, talked about how if the rules, if what has laid down there weren't followed, the election would confer no power on the one elected.
00:09:14.060 And so, in times past where this wasn't the case or wasn't written, perhaps this changes it now.
00:09:19.680 And Archbishop Vigano, in his document, talked about the issue you're talking about, about the acceptance of the election by the majority.
00:09:32.420 But he says that in the past, one of the anti-popes also had the majority of the bishops and cardinals in the Church accepting his election.
00:09:44.180 How do we make sense of that?
00:09:45.560 No. First, I will repeat, the norm of even Dominici Gregius is a human law.
00:09:51.380 It's not a divine law, I repeat.
00:09:53.140 It has not an absolute value.
00:09:55.500 It must be subordinated to the greater good of the Church, which is the clarity, who is the Pope, as I already said.
00:10:06.580 Second, the example which Archbishop Vigano brings is not applicable here, because it's another situation.
00:10:14.560 First, there were two claimants of the papacy.
00:10:20.180 Here is only one.
00:10:21.140 Here is no other who is against, who is claiming, let us say, a second claimant of the papacy on the side of France.
00:10:30.240 It's no one.
00:10:31.220 This is a fundamental distinction of the situation.
00:10:34.500 And there were two claimants.
00:10:36.620 But the first, Urban VI, was elected.
00:10:40.120 Even the election was, in my opinion, invalid, because they had so much pressures of the people from Rome, the cardinals, to elect an Italian cardinal, not a French, after Avignon.
00:10:50.780 That they were even, they had fear of death.
00:10:55.960 And in this situation, they elected an Italian cardinal, the Archbishop of Bari, who took the name of Urban VI.
00:11:03.420 And in the first month, the entire College of Cardinals accepted him as Pope.
00:11:12.480 It is proven.
00:11:14.040 And mentioned him in the Mass.
00:11:15.820 Oh, and when the Pope started to rule as a dictator and injuring the cardinals, unfortunately, he was such a character, they were so disappointed, humiliating the cardinals.
00:11:32.180 Then, after some months of naming him Pope, a part of them, the majority, separated themselves, the French, especially the French cardinals, and said, oh, the election was invalid because we were under pressure.
00:11:47.940 And we are now elected through Pope, Clement VII, a French, who then went back to Avignon, and Urban remained in Rome.
00:11:58.200 So, this is a completely different situation, you know.
00:12:03.100 And I repeat, in the first months, the entire Episcopate named him Urban, I suppose.
00:12:11.180 Only then, when they elected as an antipope, then they started to be split, the entire Church, over 30 years, even saints. 0.98
00:12:22.240 But even St. Vincent Ferrer, who was with the antipope in Avignon first, later he recognized his error and joined the true Pope.
00:12:33.380 Stunning, stunning times.
00:12:35.060 And we have all this to look back to, you know.
00:12:38.960 Thank God, because, I mean, otherwise this would seem so helpless.
00:12:42.340 And yet now, at least looking back there, for me it was comforting, because we've got great men of the Church on either side of this question now.
00:12:54.220 And Vincent Ferrer was there, and St. Catherine and Siena at the same time.
00:12:58.660 And they were on opposite sides.
00:13:01.700 It always struck me that God didn't stop the miracles that St. Vincent Ferrer was doing,
00:13:07.160 even though he was on the wrong side of the papacy debate.
00:13:11.460 And, of course, he got to the right conclusion in the end.
00:13:14.840 But, oh my goodness, what a time.
00:13:16.940 There is another question here.
00:13:18.420 You addressed it a little bit, but it is one where the saints have spoken, and it's one about heresy.
00:13:24.700 And I think, following this papacy, even as a layman, who has not a theological background,
00:13:31.100 but knows his catechism and has tried his best to raise his children in the faith,
00:13:34.660 it seems to me like there's heresy of what type, you know, is a different question.
00:13:40.620 But over and over and over again, over now 10 years, we've had not one, not even 50,
00:13:49.340 but very, very, very many departures from the doctrine of the faith.
00:13:55.480 And so one of the quotes that I have here, and it pertains to the question of heresy,
00:14:02.700 it's from Cardinal Newman.
00:14:04.160 John Henry Newman summarized the tradition of thinking that a pope who falls into heresy loses office.
00:14:11.060 He said, and he's presenting it as the tradition of the church.
00:14:15.820 He said, we hold also that a heretical pope ipso facto ceases to be pope by reason of his heresy.
00:14:22.560 If I could get your take on that.
00:14:23.920 Yes, this is a meaning of the theologians, even of saints, but not the teaching of the church.
00:14:31.080 We have to distinguish this.
00:14:33.140 Never the magisterium of the church, and I say constant magisterium, this is important,
00:14:38.520 the constant magisterium of the popes taught this.
00:14:42.880 No one.
00:14:43.440 Only there is an indication in the old canon law, which is called Corpus Juris Canonici,
00:14:50.100 which was a collection of canonical norms from the Middle Ages until 1917,
00:14:57.480 where when started a new code of canon law.
00:15:00.500 There was a norm of the Decretum Graziani, which said,
00:15:03.780 the pope cannot be judged by no one unless he is falling in heresy, but without giving norms how to proceed.
00:15:16.340 No, no norms.
00:15:18.200 Only this affirmation of Graziani.
00:15:21.400 And it was simply kept in the collection, but the popes did not took this phrase in their magisterium teaching.
00:15:30.960 They did not taught this, never.
00:15:34.220 With one exception of Paul IV in the 16th century, who made a famous ball that a heretic cannot be elected a pope. 0.99
00:15:46.460 It's only one document in 2,000 years.
00:15:48.560 It's not a constant magisterium of the church.
00:15:50.680 They have to distinguish.
00:15:51.440 And it's not an ex-catheter decision, which someone erroneously presented this.
00:15:57.740 So we have to be very correct and careful in examining the history of the church.
00:16:03.380 And then, you see, I repeat, it was never the teaching of the church.
00:16:08.960 It was the opinion or let us say of Robert Bellarmine, John Henry Newman, or maybe St. Francis of Sales.
00:16:15.080 But not, they are theologians, they are not, they were not speaking as the magisterium.
00:16:21.800 And then, and then, 1917, the magisterium of the church, Pius X, who basically prepared this code,
00:16:31.680 eliminated this phrase from the church documents,
00:16:37.140 that a pope cannot be judged unless he falls in heresy.
00:16:42.860 This was expelled from the, from the documents of the church.
00:16:47.120 This was a sign that the magisterium is not supporting this idea in 1917 already.
00:16:55.140 Distance themselves, de facto, from this opinion.
00:16:58.500 And this is a very important argument, I say.
00:17:01.660 As I repeat, there is no norms.
00:17:03.400 What, and then the theologians present several possible norms, how to proceed in such cases.
00:17:09.100 But there are no, and there, there is, and there are not applicable.
00:17:14.620 There is really inresolvable.
00:17:17.500 Even in such a case, really, it's inresolvable.
00:17:20.780 They will only create, again, two or three popes.
00:17:23.860 This will be, for sure, the consequence.
00:17:28.580 If a group of cardinals will depose or declare that the pope lost in his office,
00:17:38.020 simplest matter, but one has to state this for someone.
00:17:43.960 And this will be always a division.
00:17:45.780 Never a cardinal college will be unanimously agreeing.
00:17:50.240 They will be divided.
00:17:51.980 It is absolutely true they will be divided.
00:17:54.360 And then one will elect a new pope.
00:17:56.960 The other will say, no, he is still the pope.
00:17:59.040 We will repeat the same story as we had plenty in the Middle Ages
00:18:03.580 and create more confusion than to endure a short time an erring pope.
00:18:11.300 Because, I repeat, from the dogma of faith,
00:18:14.840 a pope cannot pronounce heresy, cannot, when he's speaking his catheter.
00:18:22.580 It's impossible.
00:18:23.420 And then, after, outside the ex catheter, he can do this, in rare cases.
00:18:29.840 But the church is more stronger than this erring pope.
00:18:33.460 The faith, the sensus fide, is stronger.
00:18:36.960 And because the entire faith of the church is stronger,
00:18:41.360 the church can endure an erring pope,
00:18:44.960 because he is not eternal.
00:18:47.620 It's common sense.
00:18:48.920 We have to apply, beside the supernatural vision,
00:18:53.840 simply common sense, practical sense,
00:18:58.180 know the history of the church,
00:19:00.480 and say this case is inresolvable.
00:19:03.580 In that, I think, Archbishop Vigano agrees with you.
00:19:07.960 He called it in his document a situation that is humanly irredeemable.
00:19:12.840 Should the next pope, or a next pope,
00:19:16.600 declare Pope Francis a heretic and say he wasn't pope,
00:19:20.440 would you fight such a declaration?
00:19:22.880 What would you think of that?
00:19:23.820 Or would that just be the church, the magisterium,
00:19:27.080 the official magisterium, finally providing clarity on the question?
00:19:29.820 He will never do this, a pope.
00:19:31.340 I repeat, because the magisterium of the church
00:19:34.560 never accepted formally the idea
00:19:37.420 that a pope is losing his office because of heresy.
00:19:41.240 Therefore, cannot do this.
00:19:43.760 He can condemn him as an erring pope,
00:19:47.760 but not declare his pontificate as invalid.
00:19:52.400 This is the distinction.
00:19:54.220 We had the example of Pope Honorius I.
00:19:57.000 He spread heresy.
00:19:58.060 And therefore, their successors,
00:20:01.300 they did not declare that he was an invalid pope.
00:20:04.700 They said he was a pope, but a bad pope.
00:20:08.220 And we condemned him.
00:20:10.760 And the same three ecumenical councils
00:20:13.000 declared Honorius I as a valid pope,
00:20:18.360 but an erring pope, a heretical pope.
00:20:20.960 This is the distinction.
00:20:22.360 What I guess is so stunning to a lot of people
00:20:26.160 is just this concept,
00:20:29.400 because even in your catechism,
00:20:31.680 which flows from the Catechism of the Council of Trent,
00:20:33.580 it defines what a Catholic is.
00:20:37.860 And the Catholic must not only believe the faith,
00:20:41.500 even though they might not practice it fully.
00:20:43.720 They might say I can't or whatever,
00:20:45.780 you know, be too weak,
00:20:47.520 but they must also profess it.
00:20:48.920 And if they don't profess then the faith
00:20:51.900 or they profess a faith different to the faith,
00:20:54.500 which seems to be what's happening
00:20:56.700 with the current papacy,
00:20:58.340 then you must question if this person is a Catholic,
00:21:02.040 which then begs the question,
00:21:04.960 can a non-Catholic be pope?
00:21:07.700 Of course, a non-Catholic cannot be a pope, 1.00
00:21:09.620 but when he is baptized and is a priest,
00:21:14.260 the canon law does not have other conditions
00:21:18.100 for the election of a pope.
00:21:19.840 As a male, baptized male.
00:21:25.220 If the canon law does not say
00:21:27.740 he must be orthodox and so on.
00:21:30.840 Of course, it implies that he must be a cleric,
00:21:34.120 but if there were in the history of church
00:21:37.060 and the election of a layman,
00:21:38.880 a layman to pope papacy,
00:21:41.040 St. Fabian in the 3rd century,
00:21:43.500 and he was a holy martyr pope,
00:21:46.180 from layman directly to the papacy.
00:21:49.300 And so, therefore,
00:21:51.540 it is implicitly, of course,
00:21:54.860 that he might have to have the right faith,
00:21:58.720 but unless he is not publicly declaring heresy publicly,
00:22:05.160 we have to assume that he is still a Catholic.
00:22:08.580 When he is pronouncing heresy,
00:22:11.860 he is still pope,
00:22:14.140 he is doing his office,
00:22:15.340 but in a bad way, of course.
00:22:17.360 But in our case,
00:22:19.100 Pope Francis did not formally pronounce heresy until now,
00:22:22.820 but he is an artist,
00:22:25.080 he has the art of ambiguity,
00:22:29.660 of confusion.
00:22:32.340 And we have to pray for him,
00:22:34.620 and I repeat,
00:22:35.300 and to restate our Catholic faith
00:22:37.340 in front of the pope
00:22:38.840 and continue
00:22:40.920 with our conviction and joy
00:22:44.980 of the Catholic faith.
00:22:46.840 I repeat,
00:22:47.480 we have not to be too much
00:22:49.400 centrated on the pope.
00:22:51.780 This is also a kind of,
00:22:53.720 I say,
00:22:54.760 not healthy.
00:22:55.500 Mm-hmm.
00:22:57.080 Indeed.
00:22:58.320 Excellency,
00:22:58.960 you have been so patient with us
00:23:00.220 and have answered so many hard,
00:23:02.980 hard questions.
00:23:04.300 It is a great grace.
00:23:05.740 It's a grace for the Church
00:23:06.680 because these things
00:23:07.640 have confused faithful,
00:23:10.120 and you're one of the voices
00:23:11.820 of great clarity and simplicity,
00:23:15.500 which is just a joy.
00:23:19.220 It's an honor to know you,
00:23:20.980 to work with you a little bit,
00:23:22.140 and to spread your catechism,
00:23:25.080 which we will do.
00:23:27.000 And God bless you.
00:23:28.100 And may I ask,
00:23:28.920 please,
00:23:29.200 your blessing
00:23:29.760 upon LifeSite,
00:23:31.680 all of our staff,
00:23:32.860 and also all of our viewers
00:23:33.920 who love you
00:23:35.920 and pray for you.
00:23:37.660 Thank you,
00:23:38.600 Mr. Weston,
00:23:39.680 for your dedication
00:23:40.860 and your collaborators,
00:23:44.260 all,
00:23:45.540 and especially
00:23:46.300 the young collaborators.
00:23:47.380 I am happy
00:23:48.700 to see young people
00:23:49.800 who are so committed
00:23:50.920 to the true Catholic faith
00:23:53.140 in your work.
00:23:55.600 And may God bless
00:23:56.420 with many fruits,
00:23:58.760 your work and all,
00:24:00.140 to whom you bring
00:24:01.040 this true benefit
00:24:03.760 and this work
00:24:05.600 of true love
00:24:08.880 for the neighbor,
00:24:09.920 to give them,
00:24:11.880 transmit them 0.99
00:24:13.080 this charity
00:24:14.500 of the truth.
00:24:15.480 and for this intention,
00:24:18.220 I bless you
00:24:18.980 and all your work.
00:24:20.100 Et benedictio Dei Omnipotentis Patris,
00:24:23.880 et filii,
00:24:25.440 et spiritus sancti,
00:24:27.180 descenda supervos,
00:24:28.640 et mani et semper.
00:24:30.320 Amen.
00:24:30.820 Amen.
00:24:31.380 Praise be Jesus Christ.
00:24:33.500 Now and forever.
00:24:36.280 Thank you.
00:24:36.960 You are welcome.
00:24:38.460 And God bless all of you.
00:24:40.640 And we'll see you next time.
00:24:41.520 God bless you.
00:25:11.520 We'll see you next time.