The John-Henry Westen Show


Bp. Schneider： The secret to the ‘underground Church’ from someone who has been there


Summary

In this episode, Fr. Fr. John Scopes talks about the need for Catholics to live in an underground church, and how Catholics can live in such a situation. He also discusses the role of Catholics in resisting the Pope s orders, and why it is important to resist them.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 We must say to the Holy Father, to the bishop, with all due respect and love for you,
00:00:05.840 we cannot execute these orders which you are giving because they are harming the good of our Holy Mother Church.
00:00:18.400 And so we have to seek other places and nevertheless be in some way formally disobedient.
00:00:26.840 But in fact, we will be obedient to our Holy Mother Church, which is greater than a singular pope.
00:00:56.840 Let me ask you, because we've been going right now in the church in hard times, spiritually hard times for quite a while.
00:01:13.480 And you've spoken numerous times about the underground, having perhaps to go underground.
00:01:20.920 And I know you lived that as a child yourself.
00:01:24.120 And for that reason, but also for your estate right now in the church, it would be very fruitful, I think, for the faithful to hear from you about how that works in practice.
00:01:34.460 You see, in China, for instance, the church is living underground, had been, and they're in the midst of that still.
00:01:42.240 But we're in a sort of similar situation.
00:01:44.200 In China, you have unfaithful bishops who are promoting communism against the truth of Christ.
00:01:50.160 But they're still bishops appointed by and approved by Pope Francis.
00:01:56.180 And so the priests have to exist under them, as do the faithful.
00:01:59.800 And so they're in an underground situation.
00:02:01.920 But in the West, we've not really experienced that.
00:02:05.860 But it seems that now we are, because we have unfaithful bishops who are nonetheless appointed by Pope Francis.
00:02:14.820 And so the priests and the faithful somehow have to live under this situation.
00:02:19.160 And you've mentioned how perhaps it's a time for living in an underground way.
00:02:25.020 How does that look like in practice?
00:02:27.360 How do we get there?
00:02:28.440 How do priests and faithful know when they need to go into an underground way of practicing?
00:02:35.240 And how does that work?
00:02:36.500 An example of this, what you are mentioning, to be in some way persecuted and marginalized, the faithful and priests within the church,
00:02:50.060 by those who occupy high-ranking positions in the church by bishops,
00:02:57.260 this situation we had in the 4th century with the Arianism.
00:03:02.900 In those times, validly bishops, licit bishops, the majority persecuted true Catholics who kept the traditional faith in the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
00:03:17.580 This was the question of life and death, the truth, the tradition of faith.
00:03:25.780 And so they were expelled from the churches.
00:03:28.160 They were forced to go to the woods to open air masses.
00:03:31.980 And in some way, we can also face these situations.
00:03:38.840 And it's already happening after Traditiones Custodes, especially.
00:03:45.340 There are places where people are cast out, literally, from the parish churches,
00:03:51.880 where they had, for several years, the traditional Latin Mass approved by Pope Benedict XVI and by the local bishops.
00:04:01.660 And now, with this new situation of Traditiones Custodes, some bishops are, I repeat, literally,
00:04:09.960 expelling the best faithful, the best priests from the churches, from the parish churches.
00:04:20.820 But the parish church is called the Mother Church.
00:04:24.880 And so these faithful are forced to seek new places of worship, gyms, schools, or halls, and so on.
00:04:35.880 And this is a situation which is similar to a kind of catacomb situation, not literally catacombs.
00:04:44.800 They still can celebrate publicly, but in a situation which is similar to catacombs,
00:04:53.220 because they cannot use the official structures and buildings of the church.
00:05:01.020 But at the same time, any situation of persecution in the history of the church brought many blessings
00:05:08.880 and strengthened more the faith of these people.
00:05:14.520 And they strengthened not only their own faith, being expelled and seeking other places,
00:05:21.520 but their fidelity strengthened the entire church.
00:05:26.260 And these matters.
00:05:27.900 There's this injustice, unjust treatment of these Catholics in our day by the Vatican,
00:05:33.840 by the Pope Francis orders, and by the bishops, who some bishops unfortunately had to simply fulfill orders
00:05:44.160 which came from the nuncio or from the Vatican to shut down churches and masses, traditional masses.
00:05:52.860 But the fidelity of these faithful, they are bringing many fruits for the entire church.
00:06:01.480 One of the things that is happening, it's happening in two different ways.
00:06:05.460 One on the part of the faithful, and then on the part of priests.
00:06:07.940 And I'd like to address first the faithful.
00:06:10.240 I was asked at the Catholic Identity Conference where we were together about how this can be,
00:06:16.300 that Catholics who are known for obedience to the Pope can now be speaking out, resisting the Pope.
00:06:24.480 How does that even work?
00:06:25.700 Look, we're even praying, as we do at LifeSite every day, after you did yourself.
00:06:30.740 Pray openly for the conversion of the Pope.
00:06:33.760 I'm doing that with my own children, as sad as that situation is.
00:06:38.160 Still showing great love for the Pope, and that's why we pray for him.
00:06:41.300 Not to hate him, to pray for him.
00:06:43.620 But these are difficult, difficult times.
00:06:48.080 And what is your suggestion for the faithful specifically,
00:06:50.680 and how we're supposed to deal with this situation, even with our children?
00:06:54.000 First, we have to clarify the true concept and meaning of obedience.
00:07:02.220 St. Thomas Aquinas says that an absolute, unconditional obedience we owe only to God alone,
00:07:12.360 to no creature, even not to the Pope.
00:07:15.140 And so the obedience towards the Pope and the bishops in the Church is a limited obedience.
00:07:22.500 And so when the Pope or the bishops are commanding something which will evidently undermine the fullness of the Catholic faith
00:07:36.140 and the fullness of the Catholic liturgy,
00:07:42.360 this treasure of the Church, the traditional Latin Mass,
00:07:47.140 and harm by undermining the purity of faith,
00:07:53.200 by undermining the purity of the sacredness of the liturgy,
00:07:57.860 we are harming the entire Church.
00:08:00.740 We are decreasing the good of the Church,
00:08:03.620 the spiritual good of the Church.
00:08:05.620 We are decreasing the good of the souls.
00:08:10.220 And here we cannot collaborate.
00:08:13.040 How we can collaborate diminishing the purity of the faith?
00:08:17.940 How we can collaborate diminishing the sacredness,
00:08:22.840 the sublimity of the liturgy of the Holy Mass,
00:08:27.220 which is the millennium-old traditional Mass of all the saints.
00:08:33.420 And in these cases, we are even obliged.
00:08:38.640 Not only we can, in some occasions we must say to the Holy Father, to the bishop,
00:08:46.700 with all due respect and love for you,
00:08:49.420 we cannot execute these orders which you are giving
00:08:54.600 because they are harming the good of our Holy Mother Church.
00:09:01.580 And so we have to seek other places
00:09:04.360 and nevertheless be in some way formally disobedient,
00:09:11.400 but in fact we will be obedient to our Holy Mother Church,
00:09:18.320 which is greater than a singular Pope.
00:09:21.640 The Holy Mother Church is greater than a singular Pope.
00:09:26.960 And so we are obedient to our Holy Mother Church.
00:09:31.040 We are obedient to the Popes of all ages
00:09:34.180 who promoted, defended, protected the purity of Catholic faith
00:09:39.560 unconditionally, uncompromisingly,
00:09:43.460 and who defended also the sacredness
00:09:48.500 and the unchanging liturgy of the Holy Mass through the centuries.
00:09:53.580 So for priests, there is an even greater question
00:09:57.760 because priests must obey their bishops
00:10:00.360 and yet some of these bishops are instructing them,
00:10:04.780 demanding that they remove the faithful,
00:10:06.760 that they deny the faithful the traditional Mass,
00:10:09.320 that they even refuse pro-life things inside parishes,
00:10:14.680 calling them political,
00:10:15.800 while at the same time we have parishes promoting climate change
00:10:19.980 and everything else.
00:10:21.180 All sorts of nonsense going on in the parishes.
00:10:23.940 But the priests feel,
00:10:25.520 well, I've got to obey the bishop.
00:10:27.660 What else can I do?
00:10:29.640 We used to offer the Latin Mass.
00:10:31.960 We're now not permitted to.
00:10:34.380 What are priests to do about obedience?
00:10:38.220 And can they too sort of go underground,
00:10:42.300 hide from their bishops,
00:10:43.680 and do things in a sort of clandestine way?
00:10:46.000 This is a very delicate question,
00:10:50.060 and I think it is a question
00:10:51.980 which touches the conscience of these priests.
00:10:57.560 It could be a different answer for every priest,
00:11:03.000 but every priest has to ask God in conscience
00:11:06.260 what he has to do in this moment.
00:11:10.340 And it could also include,
00:11:12.080 maybe some priests would obey,
00:11:16.300 and in this case they cannot help the traditional Catholics,
00:11:21.720 maybe for the sake that they want to,
00:11:25.200 at least to be still in the official structures,
00:11:28.820 to do something good, at least.
00:11:31.740 This could be also an option,
00:11:33.760 but another option which would be also legitimate,
00:11:37.980 by their conscience decided
00:11:41.100 that they had to informally lease away to the bishop
00:11:45.960 and continue to celebrate the traditional Mass
00:11:49.800 and the sacraments, not only the Holy Mass,
00:11:52.100 the sacraments also, the traditional,
00:11:54.860 to the faithful in a way,
00:11:58.200 in a clandestine way,
00:11:59.580 or in an official, maybe non-approved way.
00:12:03.140 But it is only for a short time,
00:12:07.620 a temporary solution.
00:12:10.500 And they have to keep, nevertheless,
00:12:13.020 their love for their bishop who persecutes them.
00:12:17.000 They have to pray for this bishop.
00:12:19.400 They have to keep their love for the Pope,
00:12:21.440 Pope Francis, and to pray for him.
00:12:24.700 And this time will pass.
00:12:27.560 This is only a temporary phenomenon.
00:12:31.260 And then, again, God will give us a strong Pope
00:12:38.440 who will defend the traditional Mass
00:12:41.820 and traditional faith, and then bishops.
00:12:45.080 This will come surely, without doubt.
00:12:48.480 We have simply to endure this temporal situation
00:12:54.480 and also these priests with faith
00:12:57.580 that God will intervene.
00:12:59.280 You mentioned this about the Church
00:13:01.580 will have a new Holy Father
00:13:03.820 who embraces truth and the fullness of faith.
00:13:07.720 And I know this is sort of, you know,
00:13:09.280 your own guess, your own heart,
00:13:10.900 your own prayerful discernment.
00:13:12.760 But what is your thought?
00:13:14.500 Because it looks like everybody said,
00:13:16.560 you know, Pope Francis has stacked
00:13:18.140 the College of Cardinals.
00:13:19.940 The election, obviously, is going to be
00:13:21.880 not too long from now.
00:13:23.180 Pope Francis is an old man,
00:13:24.900 and his health is not good.
00:13:25.920 But people are saying, look,
00:13:28.880 the college is so stacked
00:13:30.760 that what we're looking at coming
00:13:33.820 is going to be a Pope very much
00:13:36.040 in the same vein as Pope Francis.
00:13:38.720 What are we to do with that?
00:13:40.400 It does seem like a sort of hopeless situation.
00:13:43.540 When you say temporary,
00:13:45.080 in your mind, could that be, you know,
00:13:47.480 maybe for, you know, several decades?
00:13:50.340 Or are you thinking something shorter than that?
00:13:52.700 I know it's just a guess.
00:13:53.820 Well, it is not up to us
00:13:56.920 to know the time,
00:13:58.480 as Jesus Christ said to the Apostles
00:14:00.920 in the Acts of the Apostles.
00:14:03.600 It is not up to us to know the time.
00:14:06.740 God knows already
00:14:07.860 when he will give again to his Church
00:14:11.800 a strong, 100% traditional Catholic Pope.
00:14:17.780 And that every Pope
00:14:19.620 has to be 100% Catholic,
00:14:24.400 100% traditional.
00:14:26.620 This was St. Peter,
00:14:28.280 and this was all the Popes
00:14:30.880 throughout the history,
00:14:32.320 with very few exceptions.
00:14:34.880 This is inherent
00:14:37.640 to the nature of the papal office,
00:14:40.440 to be really 100% traditional defender
00:14:43.880 defender of the faith
00:14:45.460 and the sacredness of the Holy Liturgy.
00:14:48.460 And this will come
00:14:49.520 because this is, I repeat,
00:14:51.200 the nature of the papal office.
00:14:53.860 And currently, in the last decades,
00:14:55.900 this nature was obfuscated
00:14:58.780 by this current crisis of the Church.
00:15:03.120 So, we don't know exactly the time,
00:15:07.640 but we have to pray
00:15:08.940 that the time will be shortened.
00:15:12.000 And God's intervention
00:15:13.340 depends on our prayers also, I think.
00:15:17.040 And we have to make a coalition,
00:15:20.760 an alliance,
00:15:21.780 maybe a worldwide alliance of prayers,
00:15:26.060 a chain of prayers,
00:15:27.420 of rosaries,
00:15:28.100 to implore a most quickly,
00:15:31.740 a most quickly intervention of God
00:15:34.260 to grant the Church
00:15:35.900 a true, strong, courageous,
00:15:40.520 Catholic Pope.
00:15:41.540 I can't thank you enough
00:15:43.240 for being on the John Henry Weston Show,
00:15:45.100 for gracing us with your presence
00:15:46.600 in our studio there.
00:15:48.460 And I hope you have a great
00:15:51.820 little celebration
00:15:52.620 with the LifeSite staff
00:15:53.780 that were able to make it.
00:15:55.140 And God bless you.
00:15:57.020 And I would ask one last thing.
00:15:59.360 Would you please impart
00:16:00.900 your apostolic blessing upon us,
00:16:04.480 upon all of our viewers?
00:16:05.960 And please be assured,
00:16:07.200 we pray for you each
00:16:08.140 and every single day
00:16:09.620 as a LifeSite staff.
00:16:11.100 And I know so many of our viewers
00:16:13.400 and readers do that as well.
00:16:15.520 Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Weston.
00:16:18.260 And I am grateful
00:16:19.780 for your apostolate of LifeSite News
00:16:22.420 and for all your collaborators.
00:16:25.180 Continue your noble work.
00:16:27.020 Now and forever.
00:16:48.300 Thank you, thank you.
00:16:49.980 And God bless all of you.
00:16:52.420 And we'll see you next time.
00:16:55.500 Hi everyone, this is John Henry Weston.
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