The John-Henry Westen Show - CRISIS： Souls Led Astray Under Pope Francis ｜ Eric Sammons

00:00:00.000 I don't want to be one of these people, like I kind of call the Pope-splainers, where you try to minimize the damage, minimize the scandal, act like it's really, if we just whiteboard it here, we'll see it's really not that bad.

00:00:14.320 It's bad.

00:00:21.820 Hey, my friends.

00:00:22.580 You know, very often in the church, we are led by a lot of soldiers.

00:00:27.980 A lot of soldiers who, I was just at a dinner.

00:00:30.820 I was so surprised to see, this was a dinner of pro-life, pro-family leaders, leaders in the fight for the faith.

00:00:39.600 They were there to honor Bishop Schneider.

00:00:41.240 It was in Washington, D.C.

00:00:42.840 And they went around the room and asked, how many are converts?

00:00:46.740 Wow, like half the room put their hands up.

00:00:49.120 My next guest is one of those converts from a long time ago.

00:00:53.400 But you can see by the proliferation of his works, of writing, and of teaching, that he's been an absolute stunning worker for the Lord.

00:01:06.100 It's not a conversion like a Pauline conversion from someone persecuting the church so much.

00:01:11.020 Came in from Methodism.

00:01:12.620 But he right now is one of these voices in the church providing sanity.

00:01:18.280 He's a layman who has just been a true gift to the church today.

00:01:24.680 His name is Eric Sammons.

00:01:26.640 You would probably know him from his show, from his being editor over at Crisis Magazine.

00:01:31.780 This is the John Henry Weston Show.

00:01:33.520 Stay tuned.

00:01:33.920 Hello, dear LifeSite viewers.

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00:03:12.940 For LifeSite News, this is John Henry Weston.

00:03:15.020 May God bless you.

00:03:15.720 Eric, great to have you on the program.

00:03:20.660 Oh, it's so good to be here.

00:03:22.000 I just want to say, first, I love the work you're doing.

00:03:25.140 I love LifeSite News.

00:03:26.940 I mean, just all, everything you're doing is just great.

00:03:29.240 And I just want to commend you for it.

00:03:30.340 And thank you.

00:03:30.880 And thank you, frankly, from lots of people I hear from as well, who often mention your

00:03:34.820 name and the work you're doing.

00:03:36.440 I just think it's great.

00:03:37.960 Thanks, God.

00:03:38.920 Let's begin as we always do, with the sign of the cross.

00:03:41.260 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

00:03:45.580 Amen.

00:03:47.500 So, Eric, you are a man of great, great faith.

00:03:53.000 But if you wouldn't mind taking us back, and I know it's a long time ago, but like many

00:03:59.840 of the soldiers in the church today who are fighting for Christ and his truth in the midst

00:04:03.360 of what really does seem like a war, tell us a little bit about your entering the church

00:04:08.900 and how you got there.

00:04:11.480 Sure.

00:04:11.980 So, like you said, it was a long time ago.

00:04:13.400 30 years ago this year is when I received into the church.

00:04:18.320 And really what happened was, is I was an evangelical Protestant.

00:04:22.420 In high school, I had a conversion experience where I did an altar call, accepted Jesus as

00:04:27.460 my personal Lord and Savior.

00:04:28.420 And in hindsight, looking at it, I know it was an emotional moment.

00:04:31.820 I know it wasn't sacramental, but it was a real moment of grace.

00:04:34.480 I really do think God moved me at that time, because he really did change the trajectory

00:04:39.100 of my life.

00:04:40.080 So I went off to college very much on fire for the Lord.

00:04:43.660 I joined Campus Crusade for Christ, which I think they've changed their name to Crusader,

00:04:48.160 or no, to something else now.

00:04:51.020 But it's a very prominent evangelical Protestant college organization.

00:04:54.920 They call it a parachurch organization.

00:04:58.340 But what happened was, is early on in college, I got involved with the pro-life movement.

00:05:03.660 And it was at a large state university.

00:05:07.220 And the pro-life group was small, but it was all the core members were Catholic except for

00:05:12.440 me, because I got very involved in it.

00:05:13.980 And I was the only Protestant with, it was probably eight of us, but seven Catholics and

00:05:18.000 me.

00:05:18.540 We would go to the local abortion clinic and pray in front of it.

00:05:22.960 They would pray the rosaries.

00:05:24.060 I'd stand there either tooling my thumbs or holding the Bible or something like that while

00:05:28.400 they prayed their rosaries.

00:05:29.320 We got involved in Operation Rescue.

00:05:32.500 We got very intensely involved.

00:05:34.560 And during all these activities, I really started, first of all, to feel a discomfort

00:05:41.740 at my denominational affiliation, which was United Methodist.

00:05:45.380 That's what I grew up in.

00:05:46.980 So I was baptized in, confirmed in the United Methodist Church.

00:05:50.400 My parents were in everything.

00:05:52.620 But the United Methodist Church is pro-abortion. 0.93

00:05:54.460 And I was just like, I cannot be a member of a church that thinks it's okay to kill babies.

00:06:01.220 That just can't be a church of Christ.

00:06:02.700 So I was looking for another denomination.

00:06:04.980 Now, in my mind, another Protestant denomination, Southern Baptist, maybe a non-denominational,

00:06:10.020 something that I could feel be pro-life and be a member of that organization.

00:06:15.440 But at the same time I'm thinking this, I'm hanging out with a bunch of Catholics.

00:06:19.060 And they're all on fire for their faith, great Catholic young men and women.

00:06:24.460 And so, of course, as most members of pro-life movement know, we got involved in a lot of

00:06:29.760 debates, discussions about Protestant Catholic.

00:06:32.940 I really started to look into the claims of Catholicism.

00:06:37.000 And I was, at the same time, troubled with my own denominational background.

00:06:42.720 And I remember one day, I went up to my good friend, who eventually became my sponsor in

00:06:47.500 the church.

00:06:47.920 And I just said to him, how can you know, how can you know that the Catholic church won't 0.98

00:06:54.740 change its position on abortion someday?

00:06:57.800 And I asked that because of the fact that I knew if I jumped to the Southern Baptist,

00:07:02.800 who's to say they won't change?

00:07:04.640 And now I have to jump again.

00:07:05.720 I didn't want to keep jumping.

00:07:07.640 And so I was like, how do you know?

00:07:09.660 And I'll never forget this because I remember where we were standing on campus, we were outside

00:07:14.060 on the sidewalk when I asked him this. 0.96

00:07:15.940 And he looked at me with a look that just said, that's the dumbest question I've ever 0.99

00:07:19.840 heard in my life. 0.99

00:07:21.940 And it was somewhat of some of a pride in the Catholic church.

00:07:26.080 He was just like, I just know.

00:07:27.780 I just know it won't.

00:07:29.520 And I knew he did just know that.

00:07:31.300 And I was like, I want that.

00:07:32.300 But I want that certainty that I will belong to a church that will not change.

00:07:37.740 Now, that's not like I converted that moment.

00:07:39.800 In fact, my sister, I remember she asked me like, you're not going to become Catholic,

00:07:42.760 are you?

00:07:43.020 Because she saw I was hanging out with the Catholics.

00:07:44.800 It's like, oh no, there's no chance I will.

00:07:47.180 And I meant, of course, a month later I decided to convert, but I didn't know God had, you

00:07:52.000 know, it was laughing this whole time.

00:07:53.280 So yeah, so it really was the consistency of the Catholic church, its strong moral stance.

00:08:00.100 Remember, at this time, John Paul II was the Pope, and this is something he was very good

00:08:07.140 on, very good on that moral certainty that the church's teachings do not change, that

00:08:12.560 our teaching against abortion will never change.

00:08:15.120 This is what we believe, and this is why we believe it.

00:08:17.100 And so that was very attractive to me.

00:08:19.740 And so in the end, and there's, you know, our lady obviously was involved, as she always

00:08:23.900 is, and she's the one who brought me in over the finish line, so to speak.

00:08:27.580 And then I decided, I was like, okay, I got to do this, I got to become Catholic.

00:08:30.360 And so in Easter 1993, I was receiving the church, and it was the greatest decision ever

00:08:36.240 made.

00:08:36.480 A lot of people say, you know, like the greatest decision was like marrying your wife or something

00:08:39.500 like that.

00:08:39.680 And I told my wife, I was like, it was awesome that, you know, I married you, but it is second

00:08:44.180 place to becoming Catholic.

00:08:45.360 She's like, oh, I hope so.

00:08:47.640 Of course, she wasn't even interested in me until I became Catholic.

00:08:49.940 She was one of those Catholic pro-lifers in the pro-life group.

00:08:52.740 Oh, wow.

00:08:54.020 And she was in the group, and we were just friends.

00:08:55.960 And it wasn't until after I decided to become Catholic, she's like, okay, this guy might

00:08:58.900 actually be interesting to date now.

00:09:00.720 She was raised well.

00:09:02.840 So she didn't, then she was like, okay, maybe this guy, so.

00:09:06.380 Awesome.

00:09:07.260 Oh, that's so beautiful.

00:09:08.420 What you say resonates so much with me.

00:09:12.620 Everybody knows the March for Life in Washington, D.C.

00:09:15.460 What they might not know is the after party for the leaders who are there.

00:09:21.520 So lots of pro-life leaders, we work like crazy.

00:09:25.060 The day of the March is insane.

00:09:26.660 The night before was already crazy.

00:09:28.480 And the night before is taken up with the vigil, and you got to get to sleep, otherwise

00:09:32.240 you're not going to be able to function the next day.

00:09:33.480 But the next day after the March, there is a time to unwind.

00:09:37.240 And everybody goes to this same pub.

00:09:40.300 And if you go around the same pub, no one's talking pro-life anymore.

00:09:45.480 Everybody is doing apologetics.

00:09:47.900 It is so funny because there's Catholics and Protestants, and they're all there.

00:09:50.580 And every table you go to, there's different versions of apologetics.

00:09:54.020 And that's where Abby Johnson became Catholic.

00:09:57.700 There's so much, Reggie Littlejohn became Catholic. 0.99

00:09:59.600 I mean, so much of this there.

00:10:01.340 What was called the pro-life movement is the greatest ecumenical movement in the world

00:10:06.760 today.

00:10:07.760 Absolutely.

00:10:08.160 Just beautiful.

00:10:10.320 And I'm not a fan, you know, the funny thing, I'm not a fan of most ecumenical work in the

00:10:13.820 church today.

00:10:14.420 I think a lot of it doesn't really help the mission of the church.

00:10:17.720 But I will say the practical ecumenism of working together with Protestants and others

00:10:23.620 on something that we have a shared belief in, like the pro-life goal against abortion,

00:10:28.580 I think is very worthwhile.

00:10:30.220 And God uses it very much with myself and with many others to bring us to the fullness of

00:10:35.440 the truth.

00:10:36.620 Amen to that.

00:10:37.420 So you come at things very much like I do.

00:10:42.560 We were reared under John Paul II.

00:10:45.000 I remember in the beginning days of LifeSite, you know, reporting so much on John Paul II because

00:10:50.780 he said this and that and this on the same day.

00:10:54.200 And I was like, that's worth three stories, but that's a bit excessive.

00:10:56.760 So, you know, it was a problem that he was so pro-life.

00:11:00.720 It was like every day something, not only new, something stupendous and great.

00:11:04.640 So anyway, a different kind of a challenge than we experience nowadays.

00:11:09.460 I remember back in the day too, my girlfriend at the time, evangelical too, and evangelizing

00:11:18.620 with her doing apologetics, saying the same thing as your friends did with that look of

00:11:23.480 things will never, ever change.

00:11:24.840 We know they'll never change.

00:11:27.620 And under JP II, there was that.

00:11:29.980 You had bad bishops.

00:11:31.660 You had bishops who were against even the pro-life movement.

00:11:34.180 But you always knew the Pope had your back.

00:11:36.100 It was the same after JP II died and under Pope Benedict.

00:11:40.740 But there's been a radical shift.

00:11:43.920 There's been a radical shift that I think a lot of Catholics thought couldn't even be

00:11:49.540 possible.

00:11:51.300 And I'm not talking about one single heresy like in the days of the Aryan heresy. 0.60

00:11:56.900 I'm not talking about the Borgia popes, which were horrible for manifest infidelity, sexual

00:12:03.400 infidelity, whatnot.

00:12:05.840 Arguably, that could be much easier to deal with than what we're dealing with.

00:12:10.740 Today, regarding Pope Francis, because it does seem that things are going in an opposite

00:12:17.600 direction.

00:12:18.660 The example, especially, of the Pontifical Academy for Life, which you'd think would be

00:12:23.080 the pro-life arm of the Church.

00:12:27.380 So, there we have a veritable reverse in direction.

00:12:32.340 You have a group that used to always push for life, pushing in the opposite direction.

00:12:39.600 You have them removing pro-life members, inviting members who are against life, headed by an 0.70

00:12:46.600 archbishop who's done very strange things.

00:12:49.460 Also, in the Institute, the John Paul II Institute, and what is to be done.

00:12:57.600 Did that shake your faith?

00:12:59.020 What are people to make of that?

00:13:02.720 It's a great question, because my own story from 30 years ago, would it resonate today

00:13:08.800 if a young Catholic told a young Protestant who asked the same question, oh, I just, first 0.89

00:13:14.780 of all, would he even say, I just know the Church won't change?

00:13:17.400 And if he did, would the Protestant think that that was even viable? 0.72

00:13:22.940 Might just think, well, obviously, look at death penalty.

00:13:25.760 Look at, you know, like you said, the Pontifical Academy for Life.

00:13:30.060 It might not, I definitely think it might not resonate.

00:13:32.660 I don't want to be one of these people, like I kind of call the Pope-splainers, where you 1.00

00:13:37.820 try to minimize the damage, minimize the scandal, act like it's really, if we just whiteboard

00:13:44.260 it here, we'll see, it's really not that bad.

00:13:46.680 It's bad, and I don't think we should act like it's not.

00:13:50.940 Now, personally, I have, it's not really ever shaken my faith, and I think the reason, I

00:13:57.340 mean, God's grace is obviously the reason, and we can't diminish that.

00:14:02.680 I would say, though, the kind of human reason is I have done a lot of studying of history,

00:14:08.020 and church history in particular, and whereas I would agree that Pope Francis does appear

00:14:15.540 to be a unique problem historically, like the way in which he is harming souls, if I might

00:14:23.400 speak bluntly, is a bit, is different than what we've seen in the past.

00:14:27.520 Like you mentioned, you know, the Renaissance Popes, and they're a real scandal. 1.00

00:14:31.700 I mean, the story goes that Martin Luther went to Rome, and he was so scandalized about

00:14:36.460 what he saw there, with how terrible it was, that it really did impact him greatly, and

00:14:42.560 look at what happened then.

00:14:44.140 And of course, Arians, the pornography of the papacy in the 10th century, these are real

00:14:50.780 things that are really a problem.

00:14:52.360 This is different in that we have a Pope who almost single-handedly is trying to undermine

00:14:58.480 a lot of the fundamentals of what we believe to be the faith.

00:15:02.240 Now, and I will admit my own views have shifted.

00:15:05.880 Under JP II and under Benedict, I'll be the first to admit that I did have a tendency to

00:15:11.180 say, ah, the Pope says, so therefore the conversation's over.

00:15:13.720 That's not good apologetics.

00:15:15.440 And I will be the first to say, yes, I did that as well.

00:15:19.240 It was always great that the Pope had our back, and we loved that, and even went in the

00:15:23.500 midst of terrible bishops because, hey, but Pope John Paul said this, or Pope Benedict

00:15:26.660 said that, but really that is bad apologetics, because ultimately what I had to do, what

00:15:31.780 it was for me was, it was a deepening of my understanding of the faith, really trying

00:15:36.380 to dive into, okay, how do I reconcile church teaching on the papacy, infallibility of the

00:15:44.260 Pope, the universal jurisdiction, the Lumen Gentium, and Vatican II stating that we must give

00:15:51.560 assent of mind and will to the Pope and all these things.

00:15:56.380 How do I reconcile that with the reality I see?

00:16:00.300 I refuse to act like the reality isn't happening.

00:16:03.620 Because I think too many times you hear certain Catholic apologists and more celebrities want

00:16:11.180 to just deny the reality around us, which is that Pope Francis is leading people astray.

00:16:16.500 He is saying things that are contrary to the Catholic faith, period, end of story.

00:16:20.300 So how do I reconcile it all?

00:16:21.840 There are different ways we can.

00:16:23.280 One is, of course, you go the study of the continence route.

00:16:25.660 You just say, okay, he's not the Pope.

00:16:28.100 And whereas I 100% reject that, and I really get annoyed personally by the way they act on

00:16:34.540 the internet, the fact is I do at least understand the issues that led people to that.

00:16:42.800 That's one route you can go.

00:16:43.980 You can go the route of the kind of the where Peter is crowd, where you just act like, well,

00:16:48.460 whatever the Pope says today is Catholic dogma.

00:16:51.360 Doesn't matter what the Pope said five minutes ago, all we're going to do is do what the Pope

00:16:55.220 says today.

00:16:57.040 You're leaving your brain at the door.

00:16:59.520 And so I really was like, okay, how do we reconcile that?

00:17:02.000 And I think, and I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but my reconciliation of it is,

00:17:06.580 is that when I look at the promises of Christ to St. Peter, the promises he makes to the

00:17:11.500 church, he does not guarantee that we can't have a Pope like this.

00:17:16.880 He does not ever promise that.

00:17:18.460 And in fact, I think it's a, a means in which people are really tried and tested and said,

00:17:25.460 okay, will you follow me?

00:17:27.640 Our Lord is saying, even when my vicar is doing things that are, that are, are against

00:17:34.320 what I want him to do.

00:17:35.540 Will you still be faithful to me and to my church?

00:17:38.460 And ultimately that's what we have to hang our hat on.

00:17:41.680 I don't claim to have all the answers.

00:17:42.980 Like I've, like in my brain is 100% figured out, but it is enough for me to, to say that,

00:17:49.540 okay, all the things I believed in, which I decided to accept when I became Catholic are

00:17:54.660 all still true.

00:17:56.420 They're not playing out like I expected, but they're all still true.

00:18:00.420 And I'm not going to, I'm not going to let this, this guy in Rome, even though he's

00:18:05.680 the Pope shake me from that attachment to the Catholic church I have, I mean, I'm going

00:18:10.720 to die as a Catholic and it, it doesn't matter what he might do that might, uh, go against

00:18:17.600 or at least undermine the faith of many and undermine, uh, the, the, the, the preaching

00:18:22.780 of the gospel.

00:18:24.400 Beautiful.

00:18:25.800 Have you envisioned something?

00:18:28.460 It's, this is an odd question perhaps, but let me ask it anyway.

00:18:31.780 Anyway, so there is a contingent of people who would regard you because you are open and

00:18:39.260 honest about Pope Francis and what he's doing and the harm to the faith would suggest you're

00:18:44.940 anti-Catholic.

00:18:47.140 There could come a day because we are in a day where there is already a cancel culture 0.57

00:18:51.820 in a big way.

00:18:52.740 Priests are being laicized for speaking out particularly against Pope Francis.

00:19:00.240 Um, for pointing out errors, especially like death penalty in the catechism and things

00:19:07.240 like this suspended, some excommunicated.

00:19:11.940 It's not yet happened on the level of the laity.

00:19:16.900 Um, but there's, you know, a lot of speculation that it might.

00:19:21.720 What would you say you're prominent in the field?

00:19:27.020 You are, uh, editor of magazine.

00:19:29.880 You are, you know, very publicly Catholic.

00:19:32.200 What if your bishop threatened you with excommunication?

00:19:35.840 What would you make of that?

00:19:37.300 How would you feel about that?

00:19:39.180 I would, first of all, take it very seriously because I do believe that Christ established

00:19:44.000 a visible church and he established the bishops as our shepherds and that in all ways possible,

00:19:50.140 we should follow them.

00:19:52.600 Uh, I mean, I've, I, my understanding of obedience, I take from St. Thomas Aquinas that

00:19:56.980 where is it, his sphere of authority, that the authority has to have, uh, you know, his

00:20:01.660 sphere of authority.

00:20:02.560 Um, he can't obviously, uh, command anything that's sin, something like that.

00:20:05.800 But if, for example, my bishop were to contact me and say, you know, you, I'm, I'm threatening

00:20:12.240 you with excommunication, essentially, if, if you don't toe the line, I would in all ways

00:20:19.000 possible try to obey that and not be excommunicated.

00:20:22.440 Cause I don't, that's not a joke.

00:20:23.480 It's not, it's not something to just laugh off or act like it's not a big deal.

00:20:27.020 It's a huge deal.

00:20:28.140 You don't want to be excommunicated.

00:20:29.640 Now we know in history, St.

00:20:32.400 Joan of Arc, for example, is excommunicated.

00:20:34.020 She died an excommunicant.

00:20:35.700 Now she's a canonized saint.

00:20:37.260 So, and I, I believe Archbishop Lefebvre of the Society of St.

00:20:40.800 Pius X, um, you know, I don't think his excommunication, he died an excommunicant, 0.92

00:20:45.620 but I would not look upon him as somebody, I think one day he'll be canonized a saint,

00:20:50.380 frankly, um, long time from now, potentially, but one day, um, so I would, but I would take

00:20:56.120 it very seriously and I would do an everything possible to follow what my bishop asked me to

00:21:01.700 do.

00:21:02.440 Now, if he asked me to say something like black was white, like if he asked me to, if

00:21:06.900 he said, you have to write a retraction of something you really believe about Pope Francis

00:21:11.740 and I really believed it.

00:21:13.200 And I prayed about it and thought I wouldn't do that.

00:21:16.720 And I would try to explain to him and do the best I could to make it clear, uh, why I,

00:21:23.800 I believe myself to be a faithful Catholic.

00:21:25.680 Um, but I would try to even follow his direction as best I could, um, because I do think that's

00:21:31.260 important.

00:21:31.840 Um, we can't act like they're, I see too many Catholics on kind of who are in our sphere 1.00

00:21:36.500 that I think are a little too cavalier towards the bishops.

00:21:39.320 I know they're doing a terrible job.

00:21:40.600 I talk about it all the time, but there's still the bishops that Christ, you know, that

00:21:44.340 ultimately answer to Christ.

00:21:45.780 And we're supposed to look to them as our shepherd.

00:21:48.300 So I can't say without knowing exactly what he would ask me to do in order to avoid

00:21:52.920 excommunication.

00:21:53.600 But at the same time, I'll put it this way.

00:21:55.880 I would do everything possible to follow his dictates.

00:21:59.420 Only if he were asking me to go against my conscience that I would pray about and make

00:22:05.420 sure was properly formed, would I, would I not obey what he asked me to do?

00:22:11.240 Hey friends, this July, we at LifeSite are celebrating 25 years of service to life, faith,

00:22:18.640 family, and freedom with a gala in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

00:22:22.580 So especially for those of you who couldn't join us in the United States, LifeSite is

00:22:26.980 gathering our whole team and a few very special guests in the pro-life and pro-family movement

00:22:32.280 for a once in a lifetime opportunity at our newly announced 25th anniversary Canadian

00:22:38.340 gala.

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00:23:00.900 Chief Doug Mainwaring, Canadian reporter Anthony Murdoch, and Rome correspondent Michael Haynes.

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00:23:16.060 And don't miss the opportunity to get a live, in-person studio experience of LifeSite's top

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00:23:33.760 Canadian gala in the beautiful Hilton Toronto Markham Hotel this July 18th.

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00:23:48.500 I look forward to seeing you there.

00:23:50.820 God bless you.

00:23:54.580 So let's talk about Pope Francis for a minute.

00:23:58.300 What is your take on Pope Francis?

00:24:00.420 In other words, not the take on his theology generally, but just on Pope Francis as a person.

00:24:06.460 Do you hate him?

00:24:07.540 Do you love him?

00:24:08.320 Are you ambivalent?

00:24:10.380 Are you sort of like, oh, I'm just going to ignore him?

00:24:13.000 What's your take?

00:24:14.600 Well, he's the Holy Father, and I'm commanded to love my father, honor my father.

00:24:19.540 And I think that includes loving your father.

00:24:21.060 I think everybody should love your father.

00:24:22.100 Even a father who's abusive, they should love.

00:24:24.580 Now, of course, loving somebody isn't that modern sense of we have to have good feelings

00:24:29.300 towards that person all the time or do whatever they ask, whatever.

00:24:33.340 But the idea is that I do love him.

00:24:34.700 I pray for him every day.

00:24:36.260 I pray for him multiple times a day, frankly.

00:24:39.020 And I think that ultimately, I just think he's a bad Pope.

00:24:44.080 I mean, that's the simplest way to put it.

00:24:46.200 I just don't think he does his job well.

00:24:48.980 And that's kind of a crass way to put it.

00:24:50.920 But I really do think that's ultimately what it comes down to, that he's not—he is handed

00:24:55.580 something when he becomes Pope.

00:24:57.460 He's handed it to positive faith.

00:24:58.800 And he is told one thing, keep this to the next person.

00:25:03.460 It's a relay race.

00:25:04.780 That's what the Popes are involved in. 0.51

00:25:06.180 I mean, all of us are in a sense, but the Popes are involved in a relay race.

00:25:09.040 One hands the baton on the other.

00:25:10.840 The baton is a deposit of faith.

00:25:12.880 The only thing they're supposed to do is just hold on to that baton and hand on to the next

00:25:16.620 Pope.

00:25:16.980 They're not supposed to try to paint it or create a new baton or anything like that.

00:25:20.800 They're just handed on to the next one.

00:25:22.920 And I feel like he's dropping the baton.

00:25:24.900 In fact, he's trying to change what it looks like and do things like that.

00:25:28.280 And so ultimately, I pray for him that he would be faithful to his vocation as Pope to hand

00:25:36.720 on that tradition, that deposit of faith on to the next Pope, the next generation.

00:25:42.380 And I don't think—I think he's failing to do that.

00:25:44.000 But I definitely love him in the sense of he is my father.

00:25:47.440 He's the Holy Father.

00:25:48.200 And so I love him in that sense, and I pray for him.

00:25:51.740 And, you know, I—it's easy.

00:25:55.400 The easy way out is just to say I kind of hope for the next Pope to come soon who's better.

00:26:00.360 But ultimately, the best thing that could happen would be for him to really have a conversion

00:26:06.080 to where he recognizes what his role is.

00:26:08.620 I mean, think of how powerful that would be.

00:26:10.640 To basically—one day we wake up, he shows up at the balcony of St. Peter's and says,

00:26:15.140 hey, guys, guess what?

00:26:17.240 We're not going to do it like we've been doing it.

00:26:19.300 I was wrong in the past.

00:26:21.100 We're going to stick to the tradition.

00:26:22.780 We're going to allow the salvation of Latin Mass more, all these things.

00:26:27.680 That would be much greater than just simply him one day passing away,

00:26:31.340 we get another Pope who might be better or might be worse.

00:26:34.320 That's what we really pray for is that he would be the Holy Father he is called to be.

00:26:40.100 Amen to that.

00:26:41.260 So do I.

00:26:41.880 I mean, I kid you not.

00:26:42.920 But it would be a Pauline kind of conversion because in a real, real sense,

00:26:50.460 Pope Francis is like Saul persecuting the church, persecuting the faithful.

00:26:56.120 It's a figurative dragging people out of their homes and having them killed in very real ways

00:27:04.780 and killing not so much even the bodies as the souls.

00:27:08.360 And it's even more deadly.

00:27:10.020 So I do hope similarly for his conversion, Bishop Schneider says, pray for the Pope's conversion.

00:27:15.720 And so we do that at LifeSite every single day with great love.

00:27:19.320 And I just want to say, actually.

00:27:21.160 Yeah.

00:27:21.340 And I just want to say a quick story about how you're talking about him persecuting.

00:27:23.920 Some people might hear that and be like, wow, that's pretty harsh language.

00:27:26.680 But just as an example, and I get many of these, I'm sure you get many of these.

00:27:30.360 I had a Protestant recently contact me who is very interested in Catholicism, seriously considering it.

00:27:37.220 And his stumbling block is Pope Francis.

00:27:39.840 He just says, you know, and he knows Catholicism pretty well.

00:27:44.280 And he's very attracted to it.

00:27:45.180 He's looking at Orthodoxy as well.

00:27:46.420 And he, but he's, he's, he really does think there is a supposed to be a bishop of a successor, St. Peter.

00:27:54.180 But he just says with the Pachamama, with everything, he just like, I just can't do it.

00:27:59.120 And I understand that.

00:28:00.380 Of course, I talked to him about it.

00:28:01.700 And I send him to some people who are smarter than me who could help him out as well.

00:28:05.220 But the point is, those are real souls.

00:28:07.560 Those are real people who are, their salvation is in jeopardy because of the actions of Pope Francis.

00:28:14.700 I don't know a better way to put it than that.

00:28:17.200 And that's why this is serious.

00:28:19.100 And that's why I feel like we have to sometimes speak out about it because there's actual souls that are in danger of eternal damnation if we don't speak out about it.

00:28:30.120 And I don't see how you can't take that as the most serious thing in the world.

00:28:33.680 And yes, I know we can't be down on all the time.

00:28:36.120 We have to have our times to relax and kind of, you know, but the fact is, this is, this is serious business of what we're talking about.

00:28:41.700 And it might call me crazy, but I'm still hopeful for such a conversion.

00:28:47.500 Not that there's any indication.

00:28:50.020 In fact, every indication is the other way.

00:28:52.560 But I don't know.

00:28:54.540 I had a little encounter with the Lord where I thought something was weird.

00:28:59.340 It was when Pope Francis canceled one of these great, great bishops, Bishop Finn.

00:29:04.560 And I knew the Mother Superior who had come to Rome to, to fight for Bishop Finn in her diocese.

00:29:14.260 And I called her up with my condolences that she had lost a great father and the church had lost a great father.

00:29:21.500 And I had, that's where I had that thought about Saul, about persecuting the church and just the recovation that Pope Francis was doing.

00:29:29.720 And I kid you not, I got to the mass, I was walking on the way to mass doing that, calling the Mother Superior.

00:29:35.200 And got to mass and the reading was on the conversion of Pope Paul.

00:29:40.760 And I was just like, wow.

00:29:42.440 So ever since then, this years and years ago, I, I've continued to have that weird hope.

00:29:49.060 Do you have any hope for that yourself?

00:29:50.360 I mean, I have to, first of all, because I really do believe that God can do anything and we have to believe that.

00:29:59.200 And I, I mean, obviously there's no outward signs and I, you know, I think we all have people in our life personally that are loved ones that we see no outward signs of they've, they've, they've gone down a path that is destructive to them.

00:30:13.260 We see nothing that can, can, that indicates they are going to turn around from it, but we still have hope.

00:30:19.460 Why?

00:30:19.640 Because we love them and we want what's best for them.

00:30:21.940 And I think the same thing is true of Pope Francis.

00:30:24.180 We want what's best for him, which of course will then be best for the church.

00:30:27.860 And so, yeah, I do have hope.

00:30:30.000 I mean, the hour's getting late.

00:30:31.920 He's not a young man.

00:30:33.220 He's been Pope for 10 years now.

00:30:35.620 But that's the thing about God is he can, he can pull that rabbit out of the hat.

00:30:39.900 I mean, he can do anything he wants.

00:30:41.360 And, and so I really do believe, I think we should have that hope.

00:30:44.300 In fact, I think it's important to have that hope because when we're doing work that's critical of him, when we're saying things negative to him, if we don't have hope, then we can fall into that destructive type of criticism that is just trying to tear him down.

00:31:00.200 If we, if we believe it is possible, which we should, then I think our prayers for him are more efficacious or more powerful.

00:31:06.740 And I think our work, when we, when we criticize him, when we are saying things he's doing wrong is actually more powerful because we're doing it out of that sense of, we're doing it out of a sense of fraternal correction that hopefully he would turn around.

00:31:19.700 Yeah.

00:31:20.700 In a way, I was that guy.

00:31:23.360 Before my conversion, I was on the other side in a nasty, mean way.

00:31:28.900 And maybe it's like you too, one month before deciding a Catholicism.

00:31:34.060 No, I won't do that.

00:31:35.260 Not a chance.

00:31:36.680 Not a chance.

00:31:38.500 Certainly seems like not a chance to the outside world today.

00:31:42.080 Pope Francis becoming, embracing the faith, but let's hope and pray.

00:31:48.560 God is a God of miracles.

00:31:50.180 Surprises, as Pope Francis would say.

00:31:51.860 Yes, that's right.

00:31:52.560 That would be the greatest surprise.

00:31:54.260 That would be.

00:31:55.040 Now, you are like me.

00:31:59.640 I mean, you're, you're aware of a ton of the hell that's going on outside the church, inside the church, in the culture, in your country of the United States.

00:32:09.920 It's really dire.

00:32:12.140 But you're smiling.

00:32:14.080 What's the basis of those smiles?

00:32:17.120 And tell us a little bit, if you're open to it, about your family as well.

00:32:20.000 Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's a, it's a, the job I have, the job you have, is not, I don't want anybody to feel sorry for us, but it's not always an easy one, because you do have this danger of being consumed by what's going on.

00:32:37.580 And I've been in the midst of it long enough.

00:32:39.920 I mean, I worked for a diocese for a number of years on the inside, so I saw it there.

00:32:43.700 And you see how much, how much destruction is going on, how many souls are being lost, and how most people are rejecting God.

00:32:50.260 And so it can be very easy to then get into a, a, a very depressive mode about it.

00:32:57.900 But honestly, what I, I do personally is, is I do make sure I see the good that's going on.

00:33:05.620 In my parish, for example, we've seen dramatic growth over the past few years, a lot of people in traditional Latin Mass, a lot of people coming to it, falling in love with it, really understanding and discovering their faith again.

00:33:17.420 We have a lot of young people who've started coming to our parish, very attracted to the traditional Latin Mass.

00:33:23.280 I mean, for example, in my parish alone, this calendar year, I think we've had four engagements of, of couples getting engaged.

00:33:29.680 And my own daughter recently got married.

00:33:32.800 I have another daughter about to get married to, to great young men, Catholic men.

00:33:38.300 And I see that, I mean, I was just at Steubenville recently for my daughter's graduation.

00:33:42.660 And it was just, you, you see these young people who they really do believe, they really do have a strong faith.

00:33:50.960 And yes, they're going to be potentially, they're going to be very much outnumbered out in the world, but you see God working.

00:33:57.260 I see it in baptisms in my daughter, my other daughter, I got a lot of daughters, you can tell.

00:34:01.780 Another daughter received her first communion recently and you see these beautiful little souls being prepared for Christ and receiving our Lord and first communion. 0.96

00:34:09.640 If we really have the eyes to see, we would know that a young soul receiving her first communion with her pure heart is more important, is more important in heaven's eyes than some bishop who says something stupid or Father James Martin doing something dumb or something like that.

00:34:31.420 Like the joy of that one first communion, her holy communion is, is, is so great and so profound.

00:34:38.980 And so I think that's the key is keep that balance, recognize that balance between, yes, all these terrible things are going on in the world.

00:34:46.560 Man is doing everything we can to reject God, but God is still going through all of that and still reaching like my, my daughter at her first communion, my other daughter, her wedding, these, these couples getting engaged.

00:34:59.280 I mean, all these, all these people coming into traditional Latin mass in recent years, all these things are God's way of saying, you can fight against me, but I see souls that are yearning for me and I'm going to reach out to them.

00:35:10.880 You can't stop me from doing that.

00:35:12.160 And that's the key too, is no bishop, no Pope can stop God.

00:35:15.860 When he wants to reach a soul for him, he's going to do it.

00:35:19.080 If they're open to it, he, he can't be stopped.

00:35:22.700 Beautiful.

00:35:23.480 What's your family makeup like?

00:35:24.780 So I have seven kids.

00:35:27.020 I have six daughters and one son.

00:35:29.120 The son is right.

00:35:30.220 Yeah.

00:35:30.380 The son is right in the middle.

00:35:31.640 He's blessed among women.

00:35:32.800 We like to say, and in fact, when he was growing up, I always told people like he's either going to make a great husband or a great priest because either way he's got, you know, a lot of experience dealing with, with the, with the ladies.

00:35:46.180 And, uh, yeah, so, and my, um, my oldest is, how old is she now?

00:35:50.500 26.

00:35:50.860 I think I, if I got that wrong, she'll tell me at some point.

00:35:53.400 Um, my youngest is eight.

00:35:55.540 Uh, and, and, and, you know, we have like every family, we have our ups and downs, but they're, they're wonderful children.

00:36:01.760 I've been married for almost 28 years now.

00:36:04.580 My wife, like I said, I knew her before I was even Catholic and, and, um, you know, she was a great example.

00:36:10.640 I mean, I didn't become Catholic because of her.

00:36:12.740 I wasn't even dating her.

00:36:14.120 Um, but just her faithfulness is an ordinary Catholic.

00:36:17.740 I mean, I don't think she'll be insulted when I say that.

00:36:19.800 Like, like, in fact, I have a great story of this.

00:36:22.120 When I was Protestant still, we were at a, at a, uh, in front of an abortion clinic praying and it was getting, it was kind of rough back then.

00:36:30.900 And so the police were there and because things were kind of crazy back then and, and they were kind of keeping us from having any problems.

00:36:38.320 Mostly the proborts trying to attack us is what they really were, were there for. 1.00

00:36:41.980 And then the, the abortion clinic closed.

00:36:44.280 And so the police left, but we decided, just felt called to keep praying.

00:36:47.800 Some of us pro-lifers and they, most of the cats were praying rosary.

00:36:51.060 I was just doing whatever I was doing as a Protestant and some of the proborts stayed and they were vile, very, uh, vile people. 1.00

00:36:59.780 And in fact, this is one of the few times I looked in the eyes of one of them and I just knew that this person was possessed.

00:37:06.120 And I, I would not say that, never said that by anybody else, but I knew I just could tell this person, but looking at his eyes, he was possessed.

00:37:12.540 And they started chanting some really vile things about us that I cannot say.

00:37:16.220 Um, but they were just things like throw them to the lions and things like that.

00:37:20.160 And at one point I look over and there's one of the proborts is standing over the woman who would eventually be my wife and just a friend at this point.

00:37:27.040 And she's on her knees praying the rosary.

00:37:29.600 And this man is like standing over her and yelling vile things at her.

00:37:34.420 And she's just has this look of peace on her, on her, um, face.

00:37:38.060 And she's praying the rosary.

00:37:39.180 And I will say that was a major factor for me as well.

00:37:41.620 Cause I was like, if that thing that she's holding can do that in that situation, I wanted to punch the guy right then.

00:37:47.840 And of course, if he'd gone after, I probably would have had to do something, but I was like, if something's about that thing, she's holding that rosary, she's holding is, is, I don't know what it is, but wow.

00:37:58.820 And she doesn't even remember this.

00:38:00.100 Like I told her later, I, years later, I can't remember.

00:38:02.960 I told her the story.

00:38:03.600 She's like, oh, okay, I guess so.

00:38:05.820 But, but that's, you know, that's my wife.

00:38:08.360 So I've been very blessed is what I'm saying with, uh, my wife and my kids.

00:38:12.360 And so that does, I mean, clearly that, that helps a lot that my, you know, when I'm finished work, I go up and my eight year old is like screaming at me, daddy, daddy.

00:38:20.160 And like, you know, grabbing me, wants to play something.

00:38:21.860 And I mean, that, that helps keep you from getting too concerned about everything, you know, getting too wrapped up in everything else going on.

00:38:29.060 Yeah.

00:38:29.640 I, my life tracks so well with yours because my oldest is the same age.

00:38:35.440 We've got eight and my youngest is now 11.

00:38:38.900 And, uh, I remember in the thick of the insanity, basically going up after work and changing diapers.

00:38:47.580 It really grounds you.

00:38:48.980 Right.

00:38:49.220 It does.

00:38:49.820 Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:50.560 That's right.

00:38:52.200 Nothing gets you more than that.

00:38:53.540 I mean, and it's also great because like, you know, I work from home, I work in the basement and like, I might be on the internet, you know, correcting somebody who's wrong on the internet.

00:39:00.820 I'll walk up and like, Hey, could you take out the trash?

00:39:03.520 I mean, that's, that's good.

00:39:05.160 That's exactly the way it should be.

00:39:07.160 And it does remind you like, Oh, you're not so important after all you did.

00:39:10.120 You got to go get the trash out here.

00:39:12.360 Yeah.

00:39:13.920 That is, that's the important stuff.

00:39:16.460 And that's right.

00:39:17.680 What a, what an absolutely beautiful thing.

00:39:19.700 So what's your, what's your message to Catholics these days?

00:39:25.240 I mean, you do a lot of writing to Catholics, um, trying to, um, as you, as you said, uh, they all feel gaslighted. 1.00

00:39:33.040 Explain that to us.

00:39:33.980 What do you think is going on and what do Catholics need to hear? 0.80

00:39:38.360 Yeah, I think that's something I think Catholics really need to remember is trust your Catholic instincts.

00:39:44.580 You know, one of your guys, Kennedy Hall says this often, trust your, your, your Catholic instincts.

00:39:49.740 If, if, if you hold onto the faith as it's been handed onto you through scripture, through tradition, uh, through the, the, the, the teachings of the church over the centuries, you'll be fine.

00:40:01.300 Even if very influential and powerful Catholics are telling you otherwise, even if the, the highest office in the church is telling you otherwise, you'll be fine.

00:40:11.360 That's the way you save your soul.

00:40:12.780 You do the devotions of, you know, the, um, of the church, the traditional devotion to the church, you, you, you pray the rosary, uh, you do processions, you, you know, all the, you keep the ember days.

00:40:24.320 If you do all of that, you will be saved.

00:40:27.880 I mean, God promises that.

00:40:29.920 And so, you know, obviously, uh, sacramental setting, you're, you're going to confession regularly, going to the Holy Communion regularly.

00:40:36.780 That's what you really need.

00:40:38.040 That's the main focus.

00:40:39.020 That should be the priority.

00:40:40.100 And I say this all the time on my own podcast and everywhere I can is you have to have a life of prayer.

00:40:47.560 This is an era in which saints are raised.

00:40:50.460 If you look at the worst times in church, uh, fourth century, the Arian crisis, if you look particularly at the 16th century, the Protestant crisis, those are eras of great saints.

00:40:59.440 You have your St.

00:40:59.860 Athanasius, your St.

00:41:01.000 uh, Gregory of Nazianzus, you know, all, all these guys in the fourth century.

00:41:04.520 You have your Ignatius Loyola, Teresa of Avila, all, Philip Neary in the 16th century.

00:41:10.160 Why don't you be one of those people?

00:41:11.840 I mean, that, that's the thing is, that's what God is calling you to be.

00:41:14.000 One of those people who they're saints because they responded to a dire crisis in the church.

00:41:18.180 They didn't run.

00:41:19.040 They didn't hide.

00:41:20.540 And instead they said, I'm going to fight.

00:41:22.200 And by fighting, I don't mean you get a podcast like us or something like that.

00:41:24.840 I mean, obviously if God calls you to do it, I just mean by living your life as a faithful Catholic, being a great father, being a great mother, being a great worker in whatever you do, that's exactly how we overcome the crisis.

00:41:36.620 And so I, I really feel like it is, I have my days where I, you know, I have the, the same thoughts that everybody, every faithful Catholic has about what's going on.

00:41:48.060 At the same time though, I really feel like this is an opportunity to grow in, in holiness and sanctity.

00:41:54.880 I know in my own life, I've lived in different places.

00:41:57.460 And one of the worst places I've, I lived for my own faith, believe it or not, was when I lived in Steubenville, Ohio.

00:42:04.680 And I love Steubenville, love the people there.

00:42:07.680 What I became just kind of like, ah, you know, I just, I didn't have any, any resistance.

00:42:13.740 And, and so I just kind of became lackadaisical.

00:42:16.680 It wasn't until then I moved out to Washington DC area and it was like, okay, now I got resistance in my face all the time.

00:42:24.400 And now I'm like, I better be serious because I'll fall.

00:42:26.860 I will, I have no chance of surviving if I don't go back to my efforts to pray, sacramental life, things like that.

00:42:33.800 So I feel like in a sense, Pope Francis is that gift.

00:42:37.240 And, and the, uh, pilots like Cardinal Cupich and people like that are gifts to us in that they allow us to resist it in a, in a Catholic and charitable way that hopefully will also foster and develop our own faith.

00:42:51.100 I have so many questions for you.

00:42:52.940 We don't have much time.

00:42:53.800 Let me ask you one last question because you mentioned it.

00:42:55.980 I think it's important.

00:42:57.520 I think perhaps for a lot of the converts from evangelicalism, Protestantism, whatever, they understand scripture in a way that some Catholics probably don't.

00:43:08.620 When you say, hang on to scripture and tradition, uh, what do you mean so that someone who truly wants to take you up on your advice can do that?

00:43:18.500 Well, what I mean by that is, first of all, I do think that Catholics need to read the Bible.

00:43:22.920 I love the idea of reading the Bible in a year.

00:43:25.800 Uh, I did that a couple of years ago for like the third or fourth time, because I think it gives you a good big picture and it helps you see how God works in the world.

00:43:32.900 Because you can't read the Old Testament without being like, wow, those Israelites were really messed up a lot. 1.00

00:43:37.880 But yet you also say, wow, God was sure merciful and he sure was, he sure did guide them through all that.

00:43:44.660 And that tells us today, same, we might feel the same way about our Israelites, but yet God is still there.

00:43:50.760 So I think that's the first thing is read the sacred scriptures.

00:43:53.560 I do think you need to obviously have good Catholic, uh, interpretive guides.

00:43:58.280 I mean, my favorite is the St. Paul Center run by Scott Hahn.

00:44:01.620 I think what they do, I think they do great work and you can't go wrong with the stuff that they're putting out when it comes to reading the Bible, reading the sacred scriptures.

00:44:08.960 So I think that's first of all that, and I think in tradition, read, read things before Vatican II.

00:44:15.420 And I'm not saying everything after Vatican II is bad.

00:44:17.400 I just mean like, you need to read a papal document these days or encyclical or any church.

00:44:21.940 I mean, every quote, every footnote is from Vatican II or after we have, I mean, we're Catholics.

00:44:28.260 We have 2000 years to go back on, not just 60 years.

00:44:32.580 So read people like St. Pius X, read people like Gregory the Great.

00:44:36.840 I mean, you know, just go back, I mean, read these great saints and theologians and popes and bishops, and really, it gives you more of a Catholic sense.

00:44:47.000 So your Catholic radar, so to speak, that instinct will say, wait, this doesn't really jive.

00:44:51.880 It doesn't make you like, I'm not trying to make you your own pope, but you are saying, okay, if some individual today says something that sounds wrong, you're probably right that it is wrong.

00:45:02.480 If you've got, if you've really based yourself in reading sacred scripture and reading the traditions of the church and the fathers and the doctors and the theologians and popes from previous generations.

00:45:14.600 Beautiful.

00:45:15.760 So, Eric, you're also an author.

00:45:17.960 We want to plug your latest work.

00:45:19.540 What is that?

00:45:20.540 And tell us about that, where people can find you, and how people can be in touch.

00:45:26.360 So my latest book is Deadly Indifference, which is basically about how religious indifference has been creeping into the church for years and threatening the mission of the church.

00:45:34.620 And it really is coming to us through the ecumenical movement and the interreligious dialogue movement, which threatens to undermine our own understanding of who we are as Catholics and the mission of the Catholic church.

00:45:46.520 Eric Sammons, thank you so much for joining us.

00:45:50.360 Can you be, would you be open to coming back on?

00:45:53.120 Oh yeah, anything I can do to help you guys out and support you.

00:45:57.240 Like I said, I love what you're doing, so I'd be happy to.

00:46:00.160 Awesome.

00:46:01.280 Thank you so much, Eric.

00:46:02.340 God bless you.

00:46:03.480 God bless you.

00:46:04.920 And God bless all of you.

00:46:06.600 And we'll see you next time.

00:46:07.340 Hi everyone, this is John Henry Weston.

00:46:19.700 We hope you enjoyed this program.

00:46:21.320 To see more like it, be sure to hit the subscribe button below to get all the latest content from LifeSite News.

00:46:26.880 Check the links in the description to read more and connect.

00:46:29.400 Thank you.

00:46:30.400 Thank you.

00:46:31.400 Thank you.

The John-Henry Westen Show - June 14, 2023

CRISIS： Souls Led Astray Under Pope Francis ｜ Eric Sammons

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