In this episode of The John Henry Weston Show, host Johnathan Westendorf sits down with Eric Sammons, editor-in-chief of Crisis Magazine and host of the show, to talk about what it means to be a Christian convert.
00:00:00.000I don't want to be one of these people, like I kind of call the Pope-splainers, where you try to minimize the damage, minimize the scandal, act like it's really, if we just whiteboard it here, we'll see it's really not that bad.
00:28:19.100And that's why I feel like we have to sometimes speak out about it because there's actual souls that are in danger of eternal damnation if we don't speak out about it.
00:28:30.120And I don't see how you can't take that as the most serious thing in the world.
00:28:33.680And yes, I know we can't be down on all the time.
00:28:36.120We have to have our times to relax and kind of, you know, but the fact is, this is, this is serious business of what we're talking about.
00:28:41.700And it might call me crazy, but I'm still hopeful for such a conversion.
00:29:42.440So ever since then, this years and years ago, I, I've continued to have that weird hope.
00:29:49.060Do you have any hope for that yourself?
00:29:50.360I mean, I have to, first of all, because I really do believe that God can do anything and we have to believe that.
00:29:59.200And I, I mean, obviously there's no outward signs and I, you know, I think we all have people in our life personally that are loved ones that we see no outward signs of they've, they've, they've gone down a path that is destructive to them.
00:30:13.260We see nothing that can, can, that indicates they are going to turn around from it, but we still have hope.
00:30:41.360And, and so I really do believe, I think we should have that hope.
00:30:44.300In fact, I think it's important to have that hope because when we're doing work that's critical of him, when we're saying things negative to him, if we don't have hope, then we can fall into that destructive type of criticism that is just trying to tear him down.
00:31:00.200If we, if we believe it is possible, which we should, then I think our prayers for him are more efficacious or more powerful.
00:31:06.740And I think our work, when we, when we criticize him, when we are saying things he's doing wrong is actually more powerful because we're doing it out of that sense of, we're doing it out of a sense of fraternal correction that hopefully he would turn around.
00:31:59.640I mean, you're, you're aware of a ton of the hell that's going on outside the church, inside the church, in the culture, in your country of the United States.
00:32:17.120And tell us a little bit, if you're open to it, about your family as well.
00:32:20.000Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's a, it's a, the job I have, the job you have, is not, I don't want anybody to feel sorry for us, but it's not always an easy one, because you do have this danger of being consumed by what's going on.
00:32:37.580And I've been in the midst of it long enough.
00:32:39.920I mean, I worked for a diocese for a number of years on the inside, so I saw it there.
00:32:43.700And you see how much, how much destruction is going on, how many souls are being lost, and how most people are rejecting God.
00:32:50.260And so it can be very easy to then get into a, a, a very depressive mode about it.
00:32:57.900But honestly, what I, I do personally is, is I do make sure I see the good that's going on.
00:33:05.620In my parish, for example, we've seen dramatic growth over the past few years, a lot of people in traditional Latin Mass, a lot of people coming to it, falling in love with it, really understanding and discovering their faith again.
00:33:17.420We have a lot of young people who've started coming to our parish, very attracted to the traditional Latin Mass.
00:33:23.280I mean, for example, in my parish alone, this calendar year, I think we've had four engagements of, of couples getting engaged.
00:33:29.680And my own daughter recently got married.
00:33:32.800I have another daughter about to get married to, to great young men, Catholic men.
00:33:38.300And I see that, I mean, I was just at Steubenville recently for my daughter's graduation.
00:33:42.660And it was just, you, you see these young people who they really do believe, they really do have a strong faith.
00:33:50.960And yes, they're going to be potentially, they're going to be very much outnumbered out in the world, but you see God working.
00:33:57.260I see it in baptisms in my daughter, my other daughter, I got a lot of daughters, you can tell.
00:34:01.780Another daughter received her first communion recently and you see these beautiful little souls being prepared for Christ and receiving our Lord and first communion.
00:34:09.640If we really have the eyes to see, we would know that a young soul receiving her first communion with her pure heart is more important, is more important in heaven's eyes than some bishop who says something stupid or Father James Martin doing something dumb or something like that.
00:34:31.420Like the joy of that one first communion, her holy communion is, is, is so great and so profound.
00:34:38.980And so I think that's the key is keep that balance, recognize that balance between, yes, all these terrible things are going on in the world.
00:34:46.560Man is doing everything we can to reject God, but God is still going through all of that and still reaching like my, my daughter at her first communion, my other daughter, her wedding, these, these couples getting engaged.
00:34:59.280I mean, all these, all these people coming into traditional Latin mass in recent years, all these things are God's way of saying, you can fight against me, but I see souls that are yearning for me and I'm going to reach out to them.
00:35:32.800We like to say, and in fact, when he was growing up, I always told people like he's either going to make a great husband or a great priest because either way he's got, you know, a lot of experience dealing with, with the, with the ladies.
00:35:46.180And, uh, yeah, so, and my, um, my oldest is, how old is she now?
00:36:14.120Um, but just her faithfulness is an ordinary Catholic.
00:36:17.740I mean, I don't think she'll be insulted when I say that.
00:36:19.800Like, like, in fact, I have a great story of this.
00:36:22.120When I was Protestant still, we were at a, at a, uh, in front of an abortion clinic praying and it was getting, it was kind of rough back then.
00:36:30.900And so the police were there and because things were kind of crazy back then and, and they were kind of keeping us from having any problems.
00:36:38.320Mostly the proborts trying to attack us is what they really were, were there for.
00:36:41.980And then the, the abortion clinic closed.
00:36:44.280And so the police left, but we decided, just felt called to keep praying.
00:36:47.800Some of us pro-lifers and they, most of the cats were praying rosary.
00:36:51.060I was just doing whatever I was doing as a Protestant and some of the proborts stayed and they were vile, very, uh, vile people.
00:36:59.780And in fact, this is one of the few times I looked in the eyes of one of them and I just knew that this person was possessed.
00:37:06.120And I, I would not say that, never said that by anybody else, but I knew I just could tell this person, but looking at his eyes, he was possessed.
00:37:12.540And they started chanting some really vile things about us that I cannot say.
00:37:16.220Um, but they were just things like throw them to the lions and things like that.
00:37:20.160And at one point I look over and there's one of the proborts is standing over the woman who would eventually be my wife and just a friend at this point.
00:37:27.040And she's on her knees praying the rosary.
00:37:29.600And this man is like standing over her and yelling vile things at her.
00:37:34.420And she's just has this look of peace on her, on her, um, face.
00:37:39.180And I will say that was a major factor for me as well.
00:37:41.620Cause I was like, if that thing that she's holding can do that in that situation, I wanted to punch the guy right then.
00:37:47.840And of course, if he'd gone after, I probably would have had to do something, but I was like, if something's about that thing, she's holding that rosary, she's holding is, is, I don't know what it is, but wow.
00:38:05.820But, but that's, you know, that's my wife.
00:38:08.360So I've been very blessed is what I'm saying with, uh, my wife and my kids.
00:38:12.360And so that does, I mean, clearly that, that helps a lot that my, you know, when I'm finished work, I go up and my eight year old is like screaming at me, daddy, daddy.
00:38:20.160And like, you know, grabbing me, wants to play something.
00:38:21.860And I mean, that, that helps keep you from getting too concerned about everything, you know, getting too wrapped up in everything else going on.
00:38:53.540I mean, and it's also great because like, you know, I work from home, I work in the basement and like, I might be on the internet, you know, correcting somebody who's wrong on the internet.
00:39:00.820I'll walk up and like, Hey, could you take out the trash?
00:39:33.980What do you think is going on and what do Catholics need to hear?
00:39:38.360Yeah, I think that's something I think Catholics really need to remember is trust your Catholic instincts.
00:39:44.580You know, one of your guys, Kennedy Hall says this often, trust your, your, your Catholic instincts.
00:39:49.740If, if, if you hold onto the faith as it's been handed onto you through scripture, through tradition, uh, through the, the, the, the teachings of the church over the centuries, you'll be fine.
00:40:01.300Even if very influential and powerful Catholics are telling you otherwise, even if the, the highest office in the church is telling you otherwise, you'll be fine.
00:40:12.780You do the devotions of, you know, the, um, of the church, the traditional devotion to the church, you, you, you pray the rosary, uh, you do processions, you, you know, all the, you keep the ember days.
00:40:24.320If you do all of that, you will be saved.
00:40:40.100And I say this all the time on my own podcast and everywhere I can is you have to have a life of prayer.
00:40:47.560This is an era in which saints are raised.
00:40:50.460If you look at the worst times in church, uh, fourth century, the Arian crisis, if you look particularly at the 16th century, the Protestant crisis, those are eras of great saints.
00:41:20.540And instead they said, I'm going to fight.
00:41:22.200And by fighting, I don't mean you get a podcast like us or something like that.
00:41:24.840I mean, obviously if God calls you to do it, I just mean by living your life as a faithful Catholic, being a great father, being a great mother, being a great worker in whatever you do, that's exactly how we overcome the crisis.
00:41:36.620And so I, I really feel like it is, I have my days where I, you know, I have the, the same thoughts that everybody, every faithful Catholic has about what's going on.
00:41:48.060At the same time though, I really feel like this is an opportunity to grow in, in holiness and sanctity.
00:41:54.880I know in my own life, I've lived in different places.
00:41:57.460And one of the worst places I've, I lived for my own faith, believe it or not, was when I lived in Steubenville, Ohio.
00:42:04.680And I love Steubenville, love the people there.
00:42:07.680What I became just kind of like, ah, you know, I just, I didn't have any, any resistance.
00:42:13.740And, and so I just kind of became lackadaisical.
00:42:16.680It wasn't until then I moved out to Washington DC area and it was like, okay, now I got resistance in my face all the time.
00:42:24.400And now I'm like, I better be serious because I'll fall.
00:42:26.860I will, I have no chance of surviving if I don't go back to my efforts to pray, sacramental life, things like that.
00:42:33.800So I feel like in a sense, Pope Francis is that gift.
00:42:37.240And, and the, uh, pilots like Cardinal Cupich and people like that are gifts to us in that they allow us to resist it in a, in a Catholic and charitable way that hopefully will also foster and develop our own faith.
00:42:57.520I think perhaps for a lot of the converts from evangelicalism, Protestantism, whatever, they understand scripture in a way that some Catholics probably don't.
00:43:08.620When you say, hang on to scripture and tradition, uh, what do you mean so that someone who truly wants to take you up on your advice can do that?
00:43:18.500Well, what I mean by that is, first of all, I do think that Catholics need to read the Bible.
00:43:22.920I love the idea of reading the Bible in a year.
00:43:25.800Uh, I did that a couple of years ago for like the third or fourth time, because I think it gives you a good big picture and it helps you see how God works in the world.
00:43:32.900Because you can't read the Old Testament without being like, wow, those Israelites were really messed up a lot.
00:43:37.880But yet you also say, wow, God was sure merciful and he sure was, he sure did guide them through all that.
00:43:44.660And that tells us today, same, we might feel the same way about our Israelites, but yet God is still there.
00:43:50.760So I think that's the first thing is read the sacred scriptures.
00:43:53.560I do think you need to obviously have good Catholic, uh, interpretive guides.
00:43:58.280I mean, my favorite is the St. Paul Center run by Scott Hahn.
00:44:01.620I think what they do, I think they do great work and you can't go wrong with the stuff that they're putting out when it comes to reading the Bible, reading the sacred scriptures.
00:44:08.960So I think that's first of all that, and I think in tradition, read, read things before Vatican II.
00:44:15.420And I'm not saying everything after Vatican II is bad.
00:44:17.400I just mean like, you need to read a papal document these days or encyclical or any church.
00:44:21.940I mean, every quote, every footnote is from Vatican II or after we have, I mean, we're Catholics.
00:44:28.260We have 2000 years to go back on, not just 60 years.
00:44:32.580So read people like St. Pius X, read people like Gregory the Great.
00:44:36.840I mean, you know, just go back, I mean, read these great saints and theologians and popes and bishops, and really, it gives you more of a Catholic sense.
00:44:47.000So your Catholic radar, so to speak, that instinct will say, wait, this doesn't really jive.
00:44:51.880It doesn't make you like, I'm not trying to make you your own pope, but you are saying, okay, if some individual today says something that sounds wrong, you're probably right that it is wrong.
00:45:02.480If you've got, if you've really based yourself in reading sacred scripture and reading the traditions of the church and the fathers and the doctors and the theologians and popes from previous generations.
00:45:20.540And tell us about that, where people can find you, and how people can be in touch.
00:45:26.360So my latest book is Deadly Indifference, which is basically about how religious indifference has been creeping into the church for years and threatening the mission of the church.
00:45:34.620And it really is coming to us through the ecumenical movement and the interreligious dialogue movement, which threatens to undermine our own understanding of who we are as Catholics and the mission of the Catholic church.
00:45:46.520Eric Sammons, thank you so much for joining us.
00:45:50.360Can you be, would you be open to coming back on?
00:45:53.120Oh yeah, anything I can do to help you guys out and support you.
00:45:57.240Like I said, I love what you're doing, so I'd be happy to.