In this episode of the John Hunter Weston Show, host J.H.W. discusses the Latin Mass and how it can help students with learning difficulties attend and learn from the Latin mass. In this episode, Dr. Margaret Walsh, a special education teacher, shares how Latin Mass can be a helpful tool for students with a learning difficulty.
00:02:15.380So there were ultimately two reasons why I started it.
00:02:18.740And one of them was speaking about helping them reach their faith, naturally speaking, was I was working with two students at a secular clinic at one point, and I knew they were Catholic.
00:02:32.260And there was a story about Hades, the Greek underworld, and I asked them, how does this compare to purgatory?
00:02:38.840And they had no concept of what purgatory was.
00:02:41.640And so we spent about 20 minutes using the steps of intervention that I had been taught, trained in.
00:02:48.740to help them understand what purgatory was, how it was different than Hades, you didn't just wait
00:02:53.980around, there was a purification process, why there was a purification process, and ultimately
00:02:59.720how we can reach heaven through that purgative way, and it was amazing to watch them, it took
00:03:05.800about 20 minutes of walking them through those steps, and as I was walking them through those0.96
00:03:10.740steps, I realized the extent to which sometimes components of the faith might be inaccessible,
00:03:17.540naturally speaking and again we can get into that later but naturally speaking certain components
00:03:22.420might be inaccessible just due to the struggle to learn and that was a huge impetus for why I
00:03:27.860started Secret Garden is I don't ever want students to feel like they are held back in their
00:03:33.280spiritual life because that's the greatest knowledge that we can ever gain is knowledge
00:03:37.660of God so that's one of the reasons why I started Secret Garden and we've been running strong for
00:03:43.140over a decade now and have worked with students all over the country remotely to support them in
00:03:48.840their learning journey. Beautiful. So one of the things that does happen is that there, because
00:03:55.840there is an influx right now of people wanting to check out the Latin Massive for no other reason
00:03:59.780than it's in the news. And, but there's a lot of hubbub around it right now and people wanting to
00:04:04.880go. One of the excuses or reasons why people say, ah, I wish I could, but I can't is because my
00:04:11.500child with a learning disability. It's such a hard time just with English and getting things right
00:04:15.300anyway. How is he going to do anything in Latin at all? It's just going to be a waste of time.
00:04:18.700He's going to sit there and really not like it. What's your advice to them? I would say that
00:04:23.420shouldn't be a deterrent for families taking their students to Latin Mass. Because we are created
00:04:28.300body and soul, we have to learn through our physical body. So we have the five senses through
00:04:34.060which we learn about the world around us and the reality that informs our thoughts. And something
00:04:40.920that I would say about the Latin Mass, even though there's Latin involved and most of us don't speak
00:04:46.020Latin, we don't know Latin, there are various different elements in the Latin Mass that lift
00:04:53.320the mind to prayer through the senses. And I would say just on a cursory level, the music that's
00:05:01.980involved lifts the mind to God. The incense is also something that is used very regularly at
00:05:08.820the Latin mass, um, also in the Byzantine, right? So Byzantine and Latin mass have similarities
00:05:14.220there. Um, music incense, the posture and the, the physical way in which the faithful bring
00:05:24.040themselves to that prayer, that, um, example that students will see from the adults. There's,
00:05:30.620there is more reverence involved in the Latin mass and in the Byzantine, right? And all of
00:05:36.480those things, those externals, people call them the bells and the smells, but those externals are
00:05:43.260really, really important for lifting the mind to prayer, even though it's not a definition,
00:05:48.840so to speak. So I think in education nowadays, a lot of times people are concerned with definitions
00:05:55.820and analyzing the text and things like that and memorizing the vocabulary where we really need
00:06:03.540to go back to the basics and understand how we approach something, how we learn about something.
00:06:08.980And again, in the Latin Mass, action of the priest and the ministers has a point and a reason.
00:06:14.500And it's not egocentric. It's not pointed towards us. It's pointed always towards God. So again,
00:06:20.380that example and representation of the sacrifice, there's an awe and a splendor there that can't
00:06:27.580always be described in words that will deeply affect anyone, anyone who attends, not just
00:06:33.480students with learning disabilities, but those who do have learning disabilities, if they can't read
00:06:38.760the text, if they can't follow the prayers that are being said, even if they're in English,
00:06:43.440what will touch them is that example and the accidental externals that are surrounding the
00:06:53.080mystery. And I think that's really, really important is that we need to see the sacrifice
00:06:57.960of the Mass as a mystery. It is the highest form of prayer in the church. We need to treat it as
00:07:03.180such. And the beautiful accents that are around that, again, just help lift the mind to God.
00:07:09.560So for students who have learning struggles, even though there's Latin involved,
00:07:13.200it's not going to deter them and it's only going to inspire them to have more reverence
00:08:02.660When I was studying special education and learning different interventions,
00:08:07.660I noticed that a lot of these interventions followed the Thomistic framework of how a person learns.
00:08:14.140And that Thomistic framework is you have the senses, so you receive a sensory stimulation, you hear something or you see something.
00:08:23.240And then the first step in the thought process is that you're supposed to create an image of that information.
00:08:31.160Once you create that image, then you compare that image to past experiences and memories to kind of figure out where this new information fits.
00:08:41.660what box does it fit into what's important what's not important about it and this is kind of your
00:08:46.920your mind looking at the essential attributes and the accidental attributes of something so once you
00:08:53.300have that image in your mind then you can distinguish what's essential and what's not
00:08:57.360once that clarification of this information takes place in the mind then it gets sent to the
00:09:03.800intellect and the intellect is a seated in the soul it's where the act of understanding takes
00:09:08.980place and then based on that knowledge that the soul now possesses that individual can act on that
00:09:15.200information whether that's just understanding what justice is that will come out later when
00:09:21.320that person is in a situation where they need there needs to be justice either for themselves
00:09:26.240or for someone else or if a child is learning about heat and they get too close to a fireplace
00:09:33.440then they'll understand what that is and choose not to touch the fireplace type thing so it's
00:09:38.180applicable to both very high level concepts as well as low level concepts um but the most important
00:09:44.660the most important concept here for people to understand is that you have the senses which
00:09:50.540are external that's how we receive information and then the imagination the memory and the ability
00:09:57.140to kind of put something in a bucket those all take place in the brain um and that's where
00:10:05.120specific powers of the soul are housed, so to speak, is in the brain. And then the ultimate
00:10:11.080step is to the intellect, which is completely immaterial. So you have to go through two steps.
00:10:16.400Aristotle describes it as the first impress of the seal on wax is where our senses impress that
00:10:23.380image on our mind. And then the second impress is once that image has been clarified, that
00:10:28.900information is understood to some extent then there's a second impress of the seal on wax
00:10:35.480into the intellect and that's that's the final step in my experience and based on reading there's
00:10:44.300no science that you could use to test this but I don't think that last step from the mind to the
00:10:49.080intellect is ever broken or weak in students who have learning disabilities the weaknesses in
00:10:56.000processing information happen in the brain which would be that that middle step where you're maybe
00:11:01.300not creating a very good image you're not being able to you're not able to retrieve information
00:11:05.500from your memory you're not able to compare things that's where all of the learning disabilities come
00:11:10.380in and something that's been amazing working in this field is that when you look at neuroscience
00:11:15.160they're missing that final step and so um as a catholic it's beautiful knowing that there's
00:11:22.760that final step. And then working with the students to help them improve that stepping
00:11:29.080stone to understanding a concept. But it also brings a lot of hope. So there are two things
00:11:36.680here. One is that as Catholics, we are called to perfection. So if your student has a learning
00:11:42.720disability or any disability, there is a degree to which you are called to remedy and try to bring
00:11:48.680that weakness to a perfection to some extent. You don't just say, oh, you have this. This is
00:11:53.540how you're always going to have to deal with it. There's no change at all. We're called to
00:11:57.960perfection both morally, spiritually, and physically. So that's one thing to keep in
00:12:04.700mind is when you're looking at the learning process and a student has a learning disability,
00:12:08.560you're called to that perfection. The other beautiful thing that brought me so much hope
00:12:14.640when I was thinking about this is that even if a student has a learning disability or a severe
00:12:19.440intellectual disability where there's not even a way for us to tell how much that individual
00:12:23.740understands, there's no limitation because the intellect is seated in the soul. There's no
00:12:30.440limitation to how much God can directly reveal to that soul. So an example of St. Joseph Cupertino
00:12:38.060where he was only able to memorize the first chapter of St. John for his examinations and
00:12:43.900that's who everyone prays to when they're going through exams. But he would have had some sort
00:12:48.440of disability in his life. And yet God gave him all the knowledge that he needed in order to be
00:12:54.060a saint. Another example that I love to use is St. Joan of Arc, who would not have had a learning
00:12:58.600disability, but she was 100% illiterate, didn't even know how to write her name. And yet when
00:13:03.180she was in her inquisition, she was able to refute every single argument that they brought against
00:13:08.400her. And these are, you know, high prelates of the church who had studied for years, were not able
00:13:13.500to defeat any of her arguments. So those are two examples of God revealing directly to that
00:13:18.580individual any of the knowledge that he needs them to know in order to be saints, which I think is
00:13:23.500important for us to keep in mind. But then when you go back to the natural way of coming to know
00:13:28.500God, there's that call to perfection. And the learning process is very important, not only for
00:13:33.840those with learning disabilities, but for everyone in general. You have to make sure you're building
00:13:38.620your imagination, you have to make sure that you're not just clouding your imagination with
00:13:44.260ugly images from the internet and from video games and movies and all these different things
00:13:49.180that kids are being exposed to now. But it also points to how we learn, which is through our
00:13:54.280senses and through our imagination, primarily, again, naturally speaking, not supernaturally
00:13:58.940speaking. So hopefully that breaks it down for you a little bit. Friends, on September 24th in
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00:14:40.360Tell us one of your favorite stories, one of your favorite success stories. You've worked with
00:14:44.080hundreds of students probably, and a lot of them probably suffer from these kinds of disabilities.
00:14:50.640Walk us through one of your favorite stories. I would say there's two. The first one is the
00:14:56.000story about the two high schoolers where I was able to help them understand a component of their
00:15:00.700faith. And that was phenomenal because I'm not an apologist. I'm not one of those people who can go
00:15:06.860out and just, you know, whip up an argument. So this is a way in which I see myself helping others
00:15:13.480come to know God. And it was, it was so beautiful to see them truly understand a component of their
00:15:18.260faith. And that's probably the moment that stands out the most. But there was another moment with a
00:15:25.660different high schooler. So we work with students as young as six all the way up to college, but
00:15:29.580these were the two moments that really stood out to me. I'll add a third, but, um, another one was,
00:15:35.780uh, high schooler where she came to class sobbing. It was, she was so sad because she had been
00:15:44.200humiliated in front of her other class because she was not working hard enough in her Latin,
00:15:49.560um, oddly enough. And so it was a priest who was telling her she was just lazy,
00:15:54.340couldn't do it so we spent the entire class we used the prayer of saint thomas aquinas and we
00:16:00.440broke it down and i walked her through the different steps you know praying for illumination
00:16:04.840knowing that we're not perfect i don't remember all of the different parts of that prayer at this
00:16:09.280point but she was able to see herself in a dignified way again and then she went on she
00:16:15.240had struggles with comprehension and struggles with imagination but she went on to get a's and
00:16:21.680bees in college after that. So that was a beautiful story where she was really struggling as a high
00:16:26.720schooler. There was a moment where she was just completely humiliated and we were able to walk
00:16:33.880through those different steps of how we come to learn the role that our guardian angel plays in
00:16:38.260that and the role that grace plays in that. And it completely turned her world around when we
00:16:44.220talked about that. So that was a really, really beautiful moment that I'm lucky to have been part
00:16:48.920and then there was another student who had much more significant learning disabilities
00:16:53.300and his mom told me at one point because there were challenging classes he was he was a challenging
00:17:00.000student to work with um but his mom told me at one point that when he had to do anything hard
00:17:05.900he would imagine himself as David slaying Goliath so any anytime he had to do something challenging
00:17:11.200he evoked that image in order to inspire him to do better so again it just shows how woven
00:17:18.680together prayer faith and learning are and it's just been a privilege to be part of the lives of
00:17:27.460those students and see them grow so yeah what advice would you have for moms and dads who are
00:17:34.960facing this with their own young children where can they go to get help from you advice yeah so
00:17:40.640I would say first of all if your student is struggling and if you've just gotten a diagnosis
00:17:45.120or anything like that, I would say that this is not the end of the road. It's the beginning of a
00:17:50.760journey. And it might look different than what the parents are envisioning, but it doesn't mean that
00:17:55.200it's going to be miserable the whole time. So I would say, think of it as the beginning of a
00:18:00.800journey. I would also tell parents, a lot of parents feel guilt that it's their fault that
00:18:06.220their student is this way. And I would say, don't put that on yourself. There may be times when that
00:18:11.500is the case with parents, but a lot of students are struggling with this just from how God made
00:18:17.060them, which is something that we have to accept. God gave each of us a cross to carry. And when we
00:18:23.920accept it with love, it will bear good fruits. And so that's where parents can be the Simon of
00:18:29.140Cyrene and walk with their students. It's not always going to be easy, let's put it that way,
00:18:34.960but it's going to, God is going to bear good fruits from any of the sufferings that are
00:18:40.400offered up. So I would say, again, it's not the end of the road. It's the beginning of a journey.
00:18:45.480And then if parents are interested in reaching out for support, they can reach out to us at
00:18:50.680Secret Garden Educational Pathways. And if we're not the right fit, we try to direct parents in
00:18:56.300the right directions so that they know where to look for the proper support. Because with each
00:19:01.940student, there's going to be various different needs and there's not going to be one size fits
00:19:06.500all for everyone. So we make sure that we try to direct families in other areas. Another area that
00:19:13.580or way that families can support themselves, I just came out with a book, which I'm very excited
00:19:19.080about, called A Catholic Approach to Literacy for Struggling Students. It is designed for students
00:19:25.040who are struggling with literacy and language-based learning disabilities, but it's applicable for any
00:19:30.640parents or educators who want to know how a person comes to learn. So going in more depth than
00:19:36.420what I briefly explained here. It goes into a lot more depth with regards to the philosophy and
00:19:41.400theology behind that. And then there are a lot of practical tips and advice throughout there
00:19:45.600towards the end. And it's just, it's phenomenal working, working in this field. So we're happy
00:19:50.480to help anyone who needs it. Beautiful. Speaking of practical advice, that's going to be one that
00:19:54.920I'm sure a lot of parents will want to know. How do we get our kids to a Latin mass? How do we,1.00
00:20:02.500learning disabled or non-learning disabled, it doesn't matter because it's, I think it's
00:20:06.340going to be pretty similar they want to go it's not in english i don't understand it i'd rather0.66
00:20:10.640go where i can understand what's going on i would say what do we do uh the same advice i give to
00:20:15.660anyone going to lat mass for the first time go probably to a high mass where there's music
00:20:20.280because the music is going to facilitate that prayer and then go with the intention not of
00:20:25.240participating in the way that a lot of catholics believe they need to participate in the mass like
00:20:29.560knowing all the responses knowing each part of the mass and the prayers um kind of praying along
00:20:35.760with the priest. The priest is the minister praying on our behalf. So he's doing a job that
00:20:40.360we don't need to necessarily help him with. So for students, bring them to the mass and allow them
00:20:46.560that space to just kneel there in prayer, I would say. That's the first step is just expose yourself
00:20:55.380to it. Something that is unfamiliar is going to feel strange and sometimes scary at first.
00:21:01.020um but the more you become familiar and for some people they go to the latin mass or the
00:21:07.040byzantine rite and they fall in love with it the first time because they see the reverence and the
00:21:10.560devotion and they can they can see what beauty is there is a real beauty that is contained there
00:21:16.380that is hard to ignore but i would say go and attend and just be okay with kneeling in prayer
00:21:22.980and not necessarily knowing everything right away then as you become familiar with it that's when you
00:21:27.540can go and purchase different books that explain the different parts of the mass because it is
00:21:32.800important at a certain point to understand what is happening in the mass so that you can pray
00:21:37.600appropriately at the different points, the offertory, the canon, all those different parts
00:21:43.420of the mass. So I would say, yes, expose yourself, be okay with not actively being involved in every
00:21:52.300part of it, and then learn how to pray better through literature and materials that you can
00:21:58.080explain to your students. The other thing that I would say is, especially for students with
00:22:03.060learning disabilities, I feel like a lot of curriculum take information and content and
00:22:08.900dumb it down. They think that, oh, these students are not going to be able to understand this,
00:22:11.960so we need to make it easier and more accessible. When it comes to matters of the faith, especially
00:22:16.340given the students that I've worked with and met, there are certain tenets of the faith that they
00:22:20.760hold on to stronger than anyone else I've ever met. And that's where I would say never hold back
00:22:26.600when it comes to the matters of the faith. Never try to dumb it down, get easier catechism
00:22:32.140or like cartoon saint stories. Never make it juvenile, less rich. You can read stories of
00:22:40.000the saints. You can read the Bible to your students. You can take them to Latin mass or
00:22:44.020Byzantine rite. You can bring them to God and God will fill in for the rest, especially when it0.99
00:22:50.040comes to matters of the faith and again I speak from experience here it's not research proven or
00:22:54.740anything but anecdotes of students who have struggled significantly to understand other
00:22:59.620parts of their education in school grasp onto pieces of the faith and hold on to those stronger
00:23:06.140than anyone else I've ever seen and so if that's a fear of parents I would say that's a fear that
00:23:10.840they no longer need to be afraid of is that their student won't understand because again
00:23:15.560if you go to the Latin Mass, you're going to see the reverence physically. Other people are going
00:23:24.060to be physically praying with greater reverence around you. I remember going on the Sharp
00:23:28.820pilgrimage in France and for the first time and seeing the reverence and devotion with which
00:23:34.640the thousands of Catholics around me were praying really, really struck me. And so that's just a
00:23:41.560personal experience of that, but your students are going to have that same experience to some
00:23:46.840extent where they're going to see the examples of those around them and be immersed in this
00:23:52.940beautiful prayer and be able to pray without necessarily knowing the words yet.
00:23:57.240One last thing I want to touch on with you, and that is the danger of secular care in the same
00:24:04.980field in which you work. I have a background in psych myself, and it was one of the most0.51
00:24:11.640nefarious fields on earth for inculcation of nonsense in people. There's all sorts of stuff
00:24:17.960going on in the adult psychology world that is, frankly, seemingly demonic. But even in the area
00:24:25.660of treating children with learning disabilities, you see all sorts of agendas at play. Tell us
00:24:32.300about that and what parents need to look forward to and to avoid? Yeah, I'm so thankful you asked
00:24:36.800that question. That was another reason why I started Secret Garden is because I didn't ever
00:24:41.480want families to feel like they had to turn towards a secular clinic or the public schools to
00:24:45.660receive support for their students. It's a really sad reality that we have right now.
00:24:52.000There are a lot of good teachers out there in secular clinics. There are a lot of questionable
00:24:56.640individuals who work in those secular clinics and questionable content. And when you're working
00:25:04.200with students who have a learning disability, they are more vulnerable because they are looking
00:25:08.280for approval. When you're looking for approval, you will seek it anywhere and in whatever way.
00:25:13.800And so if your students are interacting with those who may not have the best morals, if there
00:25:20.080are different situations where they have to draw a moral conclusion from a story, those individuals
00:25:24.320may not be able to help your students see what's true and real. And in my mind, there's a danger of
00:25:30.520individuals who should not be working with children who are in the education field who
00:25:35.520could potentially prey on children. And that's a very dark reality. Again, there are many wonderful
00:25:40.980teachers where this would not even cross their minds, but there are individuals out there who
00:25:46.040could prey on students who are vulnerable at this state. And so I would say if parents are turning
00:25:51.800to local resources and they want to ensure that their student is receiving appropriate education,
00:25:58.300I would first of all, make sure you meet the person that your student is working with. When I
00:26:03.880was at the secular clinic, the parents would drop the students off for four to six hours a day and
00:26:08.580leave and just assume that their students were working with appropriate individuals when they
00:26:14.060were not. And I interacted with some of my colleagues who were probably should not have
00:26:18.460been working with children so make sure you know your teacher meet your teacher when you're working
00:26:24.600with them if if you're working with someone who's more secular and then I would definitely ask to
00:26:30.840look at some of the materials as well because that's where a lot of agenda can come in I'm
00:26:36.200doing an audit right now in a school district where we're looking at some of the materials and
00:26:39.740a lot of the reading resources are focused on following rules social awareness um how people
00:26:49.020fit within different social and cultural structures and things like that where again a lot of ideology
00:26:54.880can creep in and this is a education right now is definitely a battlefront that we're fighting with
00:27:01.900regards to the spiritual warfare right now because it's such there's so much ideology that is being
00:27:07.820pushed on children, which is not okay. They should not be the victims in this battle that we are
00:27:16.560fighting. And those of us who are adults need to make sure that we try to protect our children as
00:27:20.720much as possible. So yeah, I would just make sure you meet the teachers that your student is working
00:27:27.060with and you look at the materials to make sure that they're appropriate and don't have hidden
00:27:32.520agendas in them because that is something that comes part and parcel to some extent with secular
00:27:37.700clinics and public schools, even though there could be great people working there. So hopefully
00:27:42.640that helps families out there. It does indeed. Margaret Walsh, thank you so much for joining us.
00:27:47.440Go check out her work at Secret Garden Educational Pathways. God bless you. Thank you. God bless you.
00:27:53.440And God bless all of you. And we'll see you next time.