The John-Henry Westen Show - August 29, 2024


Downplaying Fatima？ ｜ Vatican's HUGE shift on Marian apparitions


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Length

33 minutes

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162.90492

Word count

5,406

Sentence count

329

Harmful content

Misogyny

7

sentences flagged

Hate speech

6

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Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Dr. Mark Miravale is a John Paul II Professor of Mariology at Franciscan University and the Head of the International Marian Association. He is also the founder of Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrice, a group that has over 8 million petitions calling for the declaration of the dogma of Our Lady's Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 A false apparition can do untold damage. At the same time, the church has the capacity to say,
00:00:07.920 yes, Mary appeared at Fatima. Our Lady appeared at Lourdes. She appeared at Ruta Bach.
00:00:21.920 Hey, my friends. A couple of months ago now, there was a Vatican document released,
00:00:25.560 and it was of serious concern. We wrote a bit about it at LifeSite, but it was with regard to
00:00:32.340 Marian apparitions, apparitions of Our Lady, which, as you know, have exploded over the last
00:00:37.920 century, even before, but especially over the last century. We've had many, many. But a new document
00:00:44.280 came out from Rome that really called into question a lot of this, and we needed an expert to unpack it.
00:00:51.980 So, I got the best. Dr. Mark Miravale is, well, he's a John Paul II professor of mariology at
00:00:59.820 Franciscan University. He's also professor of mariology at Ave Maria University. He's also
00:01:04.900 the head of the International Marian Association that has 130 theologians as part of it. But get this,
00:01:11.020 there's an association he founded called Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrice. And that has 8 million
00:01:19.600 petitions for the declaration of this dogma of Our Lady's Mediatrix and co-redemptrix. And it has,
00:01:29.520 among that 8 million petition, 700 cardinals and bishops. So, you're going to want to stay tuned
00:01:34.660 for this episode with Dr. Mark Miravale.
00:01:38.780 This October 17th and 18th, we are going to be running Rome Life Forum in Exile. We're doing that
00:01:46.100 in Kansas City, Missouri. This fine bishop, Bishop Joseph Strickland, sort of in exile,
00:01:50.740 is going to be joining us there, as well as Dr. Janet Smith, as well as prophecy expert Xavier Eral,
00:01:57.940 and many more, including a special guest. Hope to see you there.
00:02:02.860 Hope to see you there.
00:02:04.120 God bless you. RomeLifeForum.com. Sign up now.
00:02:09.260 Mark, so good to be with you.
00:02:10.600 It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me on, John Henry.
00:02:13.500 Let's begin, as you always do, with the Son of the Cross.
00:02:16.240 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
00:02:22.300 Well, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. I've been looking forward to speaking
00:02:25.700 with you for a long, long time. If you can, you have an obvious great love and devotion to Our Lady.
00:02:33.100 If you don't mind, we'll start there. What gave you this love? You devoted your whole life
00:02:39.000 to this work, to promoting Our Lady, and this new dogma that you believe so strongly in,
00:02:44.620 that it's coming or needs to be proclaimed. Tell us, first of all, about your devotion to Our Lady.
00:02:49.000 Well, I wish there was something dramatic and impressive, John Henry, but quite frankly,
00:02:55.700 it was just an ongoing, growing love of Our Lady. I think at a certain point, it dawned on me.
00:03:03.100 I think Fatima had a huge impact on that, as well as the teachings of St. John Paul II, of course,
00:03:09.500 that Our Lady is the remedy. Now, when I say she's the remedy, I don't mean that she's just a nice
00:03:14.700 statue in the corner. She certainly is that. Something nice to light a candle to. Nothing wrong with that.
00:03:19.880 Very good. But that, as Fatima tells us, and other legitimate apparitions confirm, she is the answer
00:03:27.860 for the challenges of our time. And when at Fatima, she says, you know, God wishes to establish
00:03:35.100 devotion to my Immaculate Heart as the means by which we would defeat things like communism and
00:03:42.740 atheism and other attacks on the Church, both outside and inside, that kind of stuck. And it was
00:03:50.100 a decision of saying that this is certainly well worth dedicating a little dinky human life to, and
00:03:55.800 that is to let people know that she's really the answer. She's the answer because God has designated
00:04:02.100 her as the answer. This is not a Marian ego trip. This is obedience to the Father, the Son, and the Holy
00:04:10.160 Spirit. And that's why no one else can really say that they're the daughter of the Father, the mother
00:04:14.880 of the Son, and the spouse of the Holy Spirit like Our Lady can. So I think for a particular time,
00:04:21.540 John Henry, devotion is wonderful. A love of Our Lady is great. But I think we've got to see her as
00:04:27.200 the answer for the difficulties that are facing us ubiquitously at the present time, both in the Church
00:04:34.240 and in the world. Indeed, indeed. And I'm going to take us on a funny aside, but it's really central to
00:04:39.160 this issue. And that's because, so as you said that, all I could think of was, you know, our
00:04:45.380 predicament right now is really in the face of Satan. I mean, if at any time the world was severely
00:04:53.720 in the grip of Satan, it seems so right now more than any other time. And that's why sort of,
00:04:58.100 it's like the final answer. Because in the beginning, when the devils rebelled, it was also over
00:05:04.620 seeing Our Lady, this humble human, not only human, but of the weaker sex, would be the one 1.00
00:05:11.820 that they'd be called to serve in a way. Not like God, not that she is God, but just that she's going
00:05:17.520 to be the mother of God. And that freaked them out. And so in making Our Lady now the answer, as you say,
00:05:25.740 or the sort of solution to the problem that the demons caused now in the biggest way is also
00:05:33.120 fulfillment of that. Can you unpack that for us a little bit? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
00:05:37.540 Take, just for example, our country. Our country used to be at one time a Judeo-Christian country.
00:05:43.020 Well, I should be speaking particularly about the United States, but of course it extends beyond
00:05:48.040 to North America. And then we became only a natural law country. And now I believe it's a
00:05:55.980 post-natural law country. And what I mean by that is there's no longer a consensus about what is good
00:06:03.480 and what is evil. Well, that's a basic breaking. It's a retaliation. This is a removal of what we
00:06:13.700 hear in Romans that God has placed his law in our hearts. And we're now saying, no, thank you. We
00:06:18.160 don't want to obey the law in our hearts. And I think Satan used to be settled because he had to.
00:06:23.600 I think it's very clear he no longer has to be settled. He can come out and actually attract
00:06:28.460 crowds. I mean, when you had the first major satanic gathering in a hotel in Massachusetts,
00:06:34.400 they sold out very quickly. So I think in the past, Satan had to hide back in a certain sense.
00:06:41.480 Now he's coming forward boldly. He's being applauded for it. Television shows dedicated to
00:06:46.460 him, movies dedicated to him. And so this is the time, I believe, like no other time when we've got
00:06:51.700 to look to Revelations 12. We have the woman clothed with the sun, and her task is to crush the head of 1.00
00:06:59.780 Satan, as prophesied in 315 of Genesis. But now it's in real time. This is a battle between God's
00:07:07.320 greatest creature and God's most heinous creature in our present moment of human history.
00:07:13.800 Indeed, indeed. And I love how you said that. It's the battle between creatures,
00:07:19.080 and therefore that distinguishes right away. Wait a minute. Jesus isn't a creature. He's God
00:07:23.440 Almighty. So the devil is a creature and Our Lady is a creature, but the two creatures on the most
00:07:28.340 opposite pole. Amazing. Okay. So let's get to the central point here. This Vatican document that
00:07:36.100 came out, what is it first of all, and why is it so troublesome? Yeah, well, first of all, you know,
00:07:43.360 let's note the Vatican document from the Dicastory for the Doctrine of Faith. It came out on May 17th of
00:07:49.920 2024. It is a new disciplinary document on how to examine mystic phenomena. Now, I think it's very
00:07:57.960 important to establish that it's a change from the disciplinary norms that we had in 1978. Well,
00:08:07.840 that tells us two things I think are critically important. One is disciplines change. Otherwise,
00:08:13.280 we wouldn't need this new discipline, or the Vatican wouldn't see the need for it.
00:08:17.760 Now, secondly, there could be a new discipline that comes out under the next pontificate. So
00:08:23.760 what I would say is, let's start by saying, okay, disciplines of the church are still things I
00:08:29.120 believe we are called to respect, we are called to obey, but we can analyze them. That's what leads
00:08:35.260 to, quite frankly, better disciplines. So in 1978, the church had norms. At that time, the Congregation
00:08:43.760 for the Doctrine of Faith gave out norms and had three general categories. Now, these categories,
00:08:49.760 very briefly, were constate supernaturalitate. That means that the bishop declares that this event,
00:08:57.700 this mystical reported event, to be of a supernatural character. Then there was a middle category,
00:09:03.220 which is non-constate supernaturalitate, which means the church does not, or the bishop in this case,
00:09:08.920 he doesn't approve it, and he doesn't negate it. The supernatural character hasn't been established,
00:09:13.800 but it's not been denied. And then traditionally, John Henry, we had the third category, which is
00:09:19.720 constate non supernaturalitate. And that's where the local bishop would declare that it is his
00:09:26.280 discernment that this is not of a supernatural character. The only reason I go through those is
00:09:32.200 that this new document is a radical change from those three categories, which in a real sense have
00:09:39.720 been in the church for the last 500 years or so. So what's the change? The change is, first of all,
00:09:46.340 that this new DDF document has taken away the ability of a local bishop to declare a phenomenon in his
00:09:57.360 diocese to be of a supernatural character. Now, that's a rather significant historical shift.
00:10:03.520 It's basically saying that at this point, no bishop could make a declaration. So as we know at Fatima,
00:10:09.920 the local bishop made the declaration. At Lourdes, the local bishop made the declaration of being a
00:10:14.240 supernatural character. And at Akita and so on. It's worth mentioning a bunch of those because
00:10:18.880 so many of these beloved apparitions that we have, that everybody knows and everybody loves,
00:10:25.240 came about this way. The local bishop says, yes, it's of supernatural origin. Just so we need to
00:10:32.360 understand how stunning this is. Keep going, please. What now happens, John Henry, is that
00:10:37.840 the local bishop submits it to the DDF. The DDF gives the permission to now put it in one of six new
00:10:48.720 categories. And we don't have to go through all these categories, but the major point is the top
00:10:54.040 category, the most a bishop can declare only after the DDF gives him permission to do so,
00:11:01.160 is now what is called nihil opstat. Now nihil opstat means nothing stands in the way. Oftentimes,
00:11:08.920 you know, if you get, if you read a book, you're an author, you write a book, you send to your bishop,
00:11:12.520 there's a censor who examines it to see, is there anything theologically wrong with it? If not,
00:11:18.380 he puts down nihil opstat, nothing stands in the way, and then the bishop grants what's called an
00:11:24.260 imprimatur, let it be printed. Well, now the DDF is saying that only after their approval can a local
00:11:32.200 bishop come up with a nihil opstat. But this new document is very strong in saying that does not
00:11:40.940 require anyone to believe in authenticity. In fact, they prohibit a statement on authenticity
00:11:48.860 specifically, but only nihil opstat. And that's, that's the most generous of the, of the six new
00:11:55.880 categories that a bishop can do after the DDF approves. So that's a, it's a very significant
00:12:01.900 historic shift. Indeed. And, and are they then, is it being reserved to the Pope or, or this Vatican
00:12:10.340 office to determine something beyond that or, or, or what? Yeah, it's a great question. It is being
00:12:17.200 precisely reserved to the DDF. So the bishop submits a report to the DDF. The DDF has now a, some type of
00:12:27.220 subcommission, let's say six or eight or, or 10 members of the DDF. And they are now really making
00:12:34.360 the ultimate discernment of any reported phenomena from the five continents. So theologically what's
00:12:43.640 happening, and once again, as I've specified before, I'm not calling for disobedience to these. I, I obey
00:12:49.060 the disciplines of the church. I'm simply acknowledging the significant theological shift of this,
00:12:54.360 that the local bishop submits it to the DDF. The DDF in a, in a very centralizing move can give then
00:13:04.200 the bishop only permission, the highest possible positive statement, to declare it as a nihil
00:13:12.340 obstant. So yes, it's, it's much more centralized. And it's a fair question to say, well, is it really
00:13:18.920 good that a smaller group of theologians has more discernment, power and authority than, than groups
00:13:26.020 of bishops? I think that's a fair question. It's an interesting concept because, okay, so the church
00:13:31.740 is all about subsidiarity, which is the principle of let the locals deal with it, basically. But also,
00:13:38.440 even in this Vatican, they talked a lot about decentralization, decentralization. And yet,
00:13:45.240 the opposite is happening in practice. Whereas thousands of bishops all over the world to take
00:13:50.560 care of their dioceses, and yet they, and their theologians there, who are all there seeing what
00:13:56.580 they're seeing, aren't allowed to make this determination as they have been in the past.
00:14:01.480 And then it just goes to this central committee of eight or 10 or however many, as you mentioned.
00:14:07.440 But then even beyond that, they're not even still able to determine anything of supernatural origin.
00:14:15.420 Nope, just it's free from error or none that we can see right now. But, and that's it.
00:14:20.580 That's right. Now, in fact, in this document, the DDF has taken itself out, as well as the local bishop,
00:14:29.040 of having authority to declare anything supernatural. The text says,
00:14:32.780 only the Pope, in rare circumstances, end quote, can make a declaration of supernatural character.
00:14:40.120 Now, to be fair, what was the rationale? The rationale was, they were afraid that many people
00:14:46.460 globally thought that you had to believe in a private revelation decision by a local bishop.
00:14:54.580 My own comment on that was, I think many people understood that private revelation is very different
00:15:03.020 than public revelation, than scripture and tradition as articulated by the magisterium.
00:15:09.380 But if not, then that's a fine thing to emphasize, to simply say, look, even when something is approved
00:15:16.660 by the church in the area of private revelation, the faithful are not obliged to believe that.
00:15:22.400 It's not to be believed on the same level as scripture and tradition.
00:15:26.240 I'm not sure it really required such a radical chain out of that fear.
00:15:33.140 And so now, even the DDF cannot make a declaration of supernatural character,
00:15:38.180 only the Pope in rare circumstances.
00:15:40.500 But it kind of begs the question a little bit, John Henry, that,
00:15:43.620 well, what if Our Lady wants to appear more than on rare occasions? 1.00
00:15:47.180 You know, I'm not sure the mother is necessarily going to follow, 0.53
00:15:50.320 and I say this respectfully, but going to follow the dictates of a Vatican congregation 0.98
00:15:55.660 other than the needs of humanity.
00:15:57.280 The mother comes when she sees people in droves leaving Christ, leaving the gospel,
00:16:03.220 leaving the church, leaving understanding of the right to life and the evils of abortion.
00:16:09.700 The mother's going to come. 0.79
00:16:11.240 If some think it's too frequent, well, I think they could have a good conversation with her.
00:16:16.520 But I don't think it's going to limit the mother in terms of when she chooses
00:16:20.560 to visit us with these critically important messages.
00:16:24.860 Pope Pius XI said men must look for the peace of Christ in the kingdom of Christ.
00:16:32.000 And he urged that the faithful give public honor to Christ the King
00:16:35.180 so that individuals and states would submit once more to the rule of their Savior.
00:16:39.920 And that is why LifeSite News is raising up the image of Christ the King across the United States.
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00:16:56.160 It's very interesting because Our Lady has been known to come when there's true calamity
00:17:02.920 and the calamity of the loss of life and horrible atrocities, which are so extreme.
00:17:13.260 That's not as extreme as the loss of souls, as the great falling away that we've experienced
00:17:20.720 in these last hundred years more than ever throughout the history of the Church.
00:17:27.080 And that's the death of souls is probably the scariest thing.
00:17:30.560 And so the frequency of Our Lady's apparition, well, you tell us,
00:17:34.920 what have you seen in terms of your study of history in terms of the frequency of apparitions increasing?
00:17:40.440 Yeah, well, we certainly have had more authentic Church-approved apparitions during this age of Mary 0.71
00:17:49.220 than arguably the whole rest of the Church's history, at least in terms of a formalization.
00:17:55.500 I think, you know, John Henry, when the press calls and asks for, you know, the why question,
00:18:00.400 why so many apparitions, I think there's two answers.
00:18:02.660 One is because heaven is generous, because the Father and the Son and the Spirit love us so much
00:18:09.180 they send us, our Immaculate Human Mother, the Spiritual Mother of all peoples, to help us return to the gospel.
00:18:14.840 But part two is also critically important.
00:18:17.340 That is, the fact that we're getting so many of these apparitions, I think, indicates that the world as a family
00:18:24.020 is not doing a great job of living up to the gospel.
00:18:28.200 And that's the purpose of these apparitions.
00:18:30.700 The purpose is never to take the place of Scripture and tradition and the magisterium,
00:18:36.900 but it is to get us to live the more challenging parts of those, which we oftentimes neglect,
00:18:42.340 like very generous prayer, like fasting.
00:18:45.600 I mean, Jesus says, when the bridegroom is gone, then they shall fast.
00:18:48.700 Well, he's been gone for two millennia.
00:18:50.400 That means all disciples should be doing some fasting, reparation.
00:18:53.780 But I would hate to think of the 20th century, John Henry, without the gift of something like Fatima.
00:19:01.700 And I think, too, you know, when Ambassador Howard D., the ambassador of the Philippines, who we just lost a few days ago,
00:19:08.040 he was the reason we got a marion year in 1987, because he met with the Holy Father, St. John Paul II,
00:19:13.940 and told him about the great marion year that had taken place in the Philippines.
00:19:17.920 And he was always called by John Paul Our Lady's ambassador, because regardless of what he was supposed to talk about,
00:19:23.920 they always talked about Our Lady.
00:19:26.000 But Howard met with Cardinal Ratzinger and said, why is there not an encyclical on Fatima?
00:19:33.800 And Cardinal Ratzinger responded, because to do an encyclical on Fatima would be like doing an encyclical on the gospel.
00:19:41.220 That's how central the Fatima message is.
00:19:43.980 And that's how much it brings to life our commitment to faith.
00:19:48.660 It doesn't compete with it.
00:19:50.300 The mother doesn't compete with the son. 1.00
00:19:53.020 And the more you love the mother, the more you're going to love the Eucharist.
00:19:56.060 The more you follow authentic apparitions, the more you're going to be true to the heart of the church.
00:20:00.660 What would things look like if this had been the way the church had handled apparitions of Our Lady over 100 years ago?
00:20:09.680 So if we reverse time and said, okay, this new DDF ruling is in place in 1900 and going forward, take a guess.
00:20:20.480 What would that have done to the church in the last number of years, especially with the approved apparitions?
00:20:26.980 How would that have made a difference?
00:20:29.000 Well, I think there's the natural and the understandable question, John Henry, of is it true?
00:20:36.080 Is it really Our Lady?
00:20:37.860 And that's the common question that the faithful have.
00:20:42.480 And when, and again, assuming the best of intentions, I'm not judging any hearts with this.
00:20:46.720 I'm just trying to offer some theological commentary on it.
00:20:49.380 But when we hesitate to make that call, there certainly is a new dubiosity with this.
00:20:57.020 Well, there's some good fruits, but we're not saying it's Our Lady and we're not prohibiting you.
00:21:03.640 But that's a lot of knots instead of, no, we believe that Our Lady of the Rosary appeared at Fatima, for example.
00:21:11.520 And to not have that declaration, in a certain sense, it takes the decision and to some degree it puts it in the hands and the hearts of the laity.
00:21:20.480 Now, in a certain sense, that can be fine, but the presupposition is always, well, the bishop should be wiser.
00:21:28.460 He should be more spiritually attuned.
00:21:30.740 He should have more gifts of discernment.
00:21:32.940 He has the sacrament with him of ordination.
00:21:36.840 And so, the idea that Fatima was not really ever approved, or right before that, Lourdes, or Beno, or Borang, I think it would bring an ambiguity into the power and the importance of these messages.
00:21:52.820 I mean, quite frankly, the Mother of God is taking the time to visit us.
00:21:56.680 I think it's okay to say, we really think it's she.
00:22:00.040 We have to do our critical thought, and certainly the dicastery is encouraging that.
00:22:05.400 That's a positive thing.
00:22:06.960 We've got to examine this stuff.
00:22:08.060 A false apparition can do untold damage.
00:22:10.820 At the same time, the Church has the capacity to say, yes, Mary appeared at Fatima.
00:22:18.600 Our Lady appeared at Lourdes.
00:22:20.700 She appeared at Ruta Bach with the miraculous medal, St. Catherine Labore.
00:22:25.540 Because that gives the faithful certainty, and that will buttress our faith and response to the message.
00:22:32.100 And the Fatima message is massive.
00:22:34.240 The call of reparation, the call of consecration, and the call of seeing the Immaculate Heart of Mary as our refuge, and the promise, the promise that in the end, her Immaculate Heart will triumph.
00:22:48.240 That's our war cry.
00:22:49.580 That gives us courage in the midst of a very intense battle.
00:22:53.120 In respect to Fatima, you talked before about the need of people, that there's basically no need for people to believe in private revelation.
00:23:04.720 Although I think Fatima has a special place that way.
00:23:08.360 Can you explain the difference there?
00:23:10.540 Sure.
00:23:11.080 I mean, technically speaking, no Catholic is ever obliged to believe in a private revelation, period.
00:23:17.180 Now, once we enter the reality and life of the Church, if we're going to have a centuricum ecclesiae, we're going to think with the Church, as one theologian, Fr. Jordan Aumann, who is very well known in Rome during his days,
00:23:31.140 it would be reprehensible to publicly speak against something like Fatima.
00:23:37.500 And what about when it enters liturgy, John Henry?
00:23:40.140 What do you do on Divine Mercy Sunday if you don't believe in it?
00:23:43.860 Or what do you do on February 11th if you don't grant that Our Lady really appeared at Lourdes?
00:23:49.000 So you would say, in a secondary sense, when the Church brings it into its liturgy, that brings a whole new appreciation,
00:23:58.060 and therefore, there should be a reciprocal response by the faithful of a new credibility.
00:24:03.720 You know, you've had so many popes sending golden roses to Fatima.
00:24:07.480 Well, if you don't accept Fatima, you're presupposing that all those popes are wrong. 0.87
00:24:11.780 Is it a doctrinal matter? No.
00:24:13.500 But is it a full thinking with the Church?
00:24:15.660 That's also not the case.
00:24:16.980 So with these approved apparitions, especially ones who have entered liturgical feasts,
00:24:22.860 May 13th is the Memorial of Fatima,
00:24:25.880 that should give people a further encouragement to open their hearts to this reality,
00:24:32.200 even though, technically speaking, they don't have to.
00:24:34.620 This is obviously damaging to the faithful who want to or need Our Lady,
00:24:42.580 because in these times, it's pretty darn depressing.
00:24:44.700 I'm sorry to say, you know, but the message from heaven, at least for my life,
00:24:48.520 have been so reassuring.
00:24:50.280 In the end, her immaculate heart will triumph.
00:24:52.440 Therefore, I have hope.
00:24:54.140 I have hope for my kids.
00:24:55.600 I have hope, you know, I might not see it in my lifetime, maybe,
00:24:58.340 but my kids, I'm almost sure will.
00:25:00.560 Well, those are great hopes to have.
00:25:04.420 And with that sort of removed, and for the most part, I've never been to Fatima.
00:25:08.100 I wish I could go, but I've never been.
00:25:10.120 So I'm hearing it through the Church, through the Church's approval,
00:25:13.220 through the approval that came from the various Popes
00:25:16.920 and the Popes speaking about it themselves and so on.
00:25:19.760 Yet with this new approach, none of that is going to happen.
00:25:24.040 But you said something very comforting in the beginning,
00:25:26.840 and that is that these are disciplinary norms and that they can be changed.
00:25:31.360 So this isn't the final chapter, necessarily.
00:25:34.760 That's right.
00:25:35.360 And again, the DDF would respond back by saying,
00:25:39.100 oh, yeah, we're not saying that apparitions can't happen.
00:25:42.700 We're just saying we're not going to have bishops, you know, approve them.
00:25:48.080 And I would simply try to point out that when you remove the top category,
00:25:53.940 when you remove constate supernaturalitate,
00:25:56.620 the ability of the bishop to say, this is supernatural,
00:25:59.440 and in its place, you have six new categories,
00:26:04.300 the highest of which is only saying there's nothing that stands in its way.
00:26:09.400 And quite frankly, if you go through the other five categories,
00:26:12.500 there are different gradations of more, let us say, negativity.
00:26:17.400 So, for example, you have the third category is kurator.
00:26:21.640 Kurator literally means, you know, be careful, have caution.
00:26:24.680 And on that third level, it says, well, there could be worldwide spiritual fruits,
00:26:31.180 but there's also serious problems,
00:26:34.080 and we don't think it wise for the bishop to banish it
00:26:39.060 because it would upset the people of God,
00:26:41.220 but we want the people, we want the bishop to dissuade the people.
00:26:45.360 Now, once again, as a theological comment, not as a disobedience,
00:26:49.980 I'm certainly going to follow these,
00:26:51.380 but that's a dubious category, John Henry, for a couple of reasons.
00:26:54.180 First of all, it sounds like you can get great international fruits from a bad tree.
00:27:00.680 That is to say, why would you even have a category that says you're going to have
00:27:05.920 international, undeniable international fruits,
00:27:08.300 but we've got to get back to Scripture with Matthew 7, 15 through 20,
00:27:13.180 and the reference is specifically about how you discern prophecy.
00:27:18.540 And Jesus says, as his only standard in this,
00:27:23.100 that, you know, a good tree can't produce bad fruit,
00:27:26.720 nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
00:27:31.580 You will know a tree by its fruits.
00:27:33.960 So there's a bit of ambiguity, I would hold theologically, in that category.
00:27:38.560 Also, quite frankly, if it's not a good tree,
00:27:41.320 then don't worry about upsetting the faithful.
00:27:43.600 Keep them away from it,
00:27:44.500 because I think that's also a pastoral responsibility.
00:27:48.220 So once again, I'm trying to be fair to these,
00:27:51.820 but I think there's some theological issues with the categories
00:27:55.560 that I don't think necessarily calls for an improvement
00:27:59.280 on the three categories we had before.
00:28:01.520 Let's think through that, or help us think through that,
00:28:03.940 that one you were just talking about,
00:28:05.980 about Jesus' sort of proof for things,
00:28:08.720 where there's good fruit coming from a good tree
00:28:11.520 and bad fruit from a bad tree.
00:28:13.880 Won't it be argued, but that, you know,
00:28:16.400 sometimes the devil can use to fool people,
00:28:19.900 that he's going to let some good things happen
00:28:21.880 from something that's really evil.
00:28:24.100 And therefore, you know, you need something like this,
00:28:27.040 because, so how do we discern what our Lord meant there
00:28:30.700 and how to drill down into that?
00:28:32.240 And what can we really take from that?
00:28:34.580 How do we discern what is good and what is evil
00:28:36.920 based on our Lord's own criteria?
00:28:39.140 Sure. So let's use an example.
00:28:41.000 Let's say someone contrives a false apparition
00:28:44.860 at the local parish.
00:28:46.260 And let's say they announce to everyone,
00:28:48.840 Our Lady came to me and said, 0.98
00:28:50.620 If everyone goes to confession and communion,
00:28:53.360 there will be a great outpouring of grace at our parish.
00:28:56.620 Well, in a certain sense, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
00:28:59.460 Because if everyone goes to confession
00:29:00.920 and receives communion, you're going to get it.
00:29:02.880 What's the difference?
00:29:04.000 The Church uses terms like curduring fruits,
00:29:07.060 lasting fruits, international fruits.
00:29:10.020 So it's a qualitative and a quantitative evaluation
00:29:13.860 of what Jesus says.
00:29:15.520 But the foundation is you're not going to get
00:29:18.520 perduring global fruits
00:29:20.960 that are going to call people
00:29:22.440 to come from five continents to one place.
00:29:25.920 I'm going to personally use the example Medjugorje.
00:29:28.180 People have different opinions, and that's fine.
00:29:30.000 I personally believe it to be authentic.
00:29:31.680 But you're not going to have Satan able to produce
00:29:36.020 the fruits that would bring 60 million people
00:29:39.760 to a nowhere place in Bosnia-Herzegovina
00:29:42.960 and have tens of thousands of vocations
00:29:47.000 to the priesthood and religious life.
00:29:49.280 Millions of inversions.
00:29:52.080 And so that's how you examine these things as well.
00:29:56.240 And I would say this too, John Henry,
00:29:58.220 if someone says, look, I grant the fruits
00:30:01.340 of a particular place.
00:30:03.040 I just don't like this and this and this.
00:30:05.960 Well, we have to be careful there
00:30:07.200 because what we're saying there is,
00:30:09.220 I grant the only criterion that Jesus Christ
00:30:12.140 gave you and me to examine a tree,
00:30:14.600 which are the fruits.
00:30:15.780 I just don't like the fact that this guy's got a tennis car
00:30:18.440 or he drives a Mercedes or how he votes.
00:30:21.880 So we have to also try to follow legitimate criteria
00:30:27.040 that the church gives us.
00:30:28.940 And those three major criteria,
00:30:30.160 number one, is the message content sound?
00:30:32.820 Because the Holy Spirit will not contradict himself
00:30:35.780 by giving doctrinal error to an individual person.
00:30:39.040 Number two, is the phenomena, solar miracles,
00:30:42.820 the state of ecstasy,
00:30:44.620 is this according to the church's tradition,
00:30:47.100 like Bridget of Sweden, like Catherine of Siena,
00:30:49.400 like Lourdes, like the kids at Fatima.
00:30:52.020 And number three, the spiritual fruits.
00:30:54.880 Are they lasting?
00:30:56.160 Are they generous?
00:30:57.780 Because the Holy Spirit is generous.
00:31:00.080 He's not just a checkbox spirit
00:31:03.860 where you get a few conversions.
00:31:06.420 St. Thomas said it's why they had tongues at Pentecost.
00:31:09.340 It caused awe, astonishment.
00:31:11.920 Yeah, there should be astonishment
00:31:14.240 in an authentic apparition.
00:31:16.060 I mean, people should be blown away,
00:31:18.180 to use a vernacular,
00:31:19.400 of the graces, of the conversion that come,
00:31:21.960 because that's an indication
00:31:23.500 it's not just a human invention,
00:31:25.520 but it's really the Spirit
00:31:26.760 acting through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
00:31:29.620 Wow, that's really beautiful.
00:31:31.880 You know, Mark, I want to have you back on
00:31:33.820 to delve more into that,
00:31:36.440 because I think this whole question,
00:31:39.560 especially as it pertains perhaps
00:31:41.600 to specific messages of Our Lady,
00:31:45.440 would be really neat to unpack.
00:31:46.640 Any final thoughts for us, though,
00:31:48.500 on the document itself and its ramifications?
00:31:51.700 Yeah, I would simply say, again,
00:31:52.920 there's a line in the document,
00:31:54.320 which we can talk about again,
00:31:56.200 but there's a line that seems to make reference
00:31:58.200 that Mary doesn't mediate graces.
00:31:59.860 Well, that we know to be an error,
00:32:01.420 because that would go against
00:32:03.720 three or four centuries of papal magisterium.
00:32:06.840 In general, though, I would say to John Henry,
00:32:08.980 we can strongly keep our faith
00:32:11.900 in the apparitions that have been approved.
00:32:14.640 And in a certain sense,
00:32:16.120 from those apparitions,
00:32:17.300 we can learn to listen to the mother's voice.
00:32:20.560 And by that, I mean,
00:32:22.300 mothers sometimes have to be strong 0.95
00:32:23.960 with their children, as Our Lady is.
00:32:25.900 But mothers always have a gentleness to them, 0.93
00:32:28.320 and the ultimate fruit is always peace.
00:32:31.580 So let's learn from what we know
00:32:33.920 to be the approved apparitions,
00:32:36.280 and to be open to what continues,
00:32:38.860 because we can always make a personal judgment
00:32:41.280 that I believe,
00:32:43.260 although I, at the same time,
00:32:45.260 confer and will follow the Church's guidelines,
00:32:48.440 even if the Church just says,
00:32:49.760 Neil Obstot, I can say credo.
00:32:52.980 Hmm.
00:32:53.680 In other words, the Church says,
00:32:55.560 yeah, no error here.
00:32:57.240 You can say, well, I believe it's actually true.
00:32:59.400 Exactly.
00:33:00.600 That's awesome.
00:33:01.760 Dr. Mark Miravelle,
00:33:02.740 thank you so much for joining us.
00:33:04.580 My pleasure, John Henry.
00:33:05.520 God bless you.
00:33:06.800 And God bless you, too.
00:33:08.300 And God bless all of you.
00:33:10.140 And we'll see you next time.