Downplaying Fatima？ ｜ Vatican's HUGE shift on Marian apparitions
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Summary
Dr. Mark Miravale is a John Paul II Professor of Mariology at Franciscan University and the Head of the International Marian Association. He is also the founder of Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrice, a group that has over 8 million petitions calling for the declaration of the dogma of Our Lady's Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix.
Transcript
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A false apparition can do untold damage. At the same time, the church has the capacity to say,
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yes, Mary appeared at Fatima. Our Lady appeared at Lourdes. She appeared at Ruta Bach.
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Hey, my friends. A couple of months ago now, there was a Vatican document released,
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and it was of serious concern. We wrote a bit about it at LifeSite, but it was with regard to
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Marian apparitions, apparitions of Our Lady, which, as you know, have exploded over the last
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century, even before, but especially over the last century. We've had many, many. But a new document
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came out from Rome that really called into question a lot of this, and we needed an expert to unpack it.
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So, I got the best. Dr. Mark Miravale is, well, he's a John Paul II professor of mariology at
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Franciscan University. He's also professor of mariology at Ave Maria University. He's also
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the head of the International Marian Association that has 130 theologians as part of it. But get this,
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there's an association he founded called Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrice. And that has 8 million
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petitions for the declaration of this dogma of Our Lady's Mediatrix and co-redemptrix. And it has,
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among that 8 million petition, 700 cardinals and bishops. So, you're going to want to stay tuned
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This October 17th and 18th, we are going to be running Rome Life Forum in Exile. We're doing that
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in Kansas City, Missouri. This fine bishop, Bishop Joseph Strickland, sort of in exile,
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is going to be joining us there, as well as Dr. Janet Smith, as well as prophecy expert Xavier Eral,
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and many more, including a special guest. Hope to see you there.
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It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me on, John Henry.
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Let's begin, as you always do, with the Son of the Cross.
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In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
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Well, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. I've been looking forward to speaking
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with you for a long, long time. If you can, you have an obvious great love and devotion to Our Lady.
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If you don't mind, we'll start there. What gave you this love? You devoted your whole life
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to this work, to promoting Our Lady, and this new dogma that you believe so strongly in,
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that it's coming or needs to be proclaimed. Tell us, first of all, about your devotion to Our Lady.
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Well, I wish there was something dramatic and impressive, John Henry, but quite frankly,
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it was just an ongoing, growing love of Our Lady. I think at a certain point, it dawned on me.
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I think Fatima had a huge impact on that, as well as the teachings of St. John Paul II, of course,
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that Our Lady is the remedy. Now, when I say she's the remedy, I don't mean that she's just a nice
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statue in the corner. She certainly is that. Something nice to light a candle to. Nothing wrong with that.
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Very good. But that, as Fatima tells us, and other legitimate apparitions confirm, she is the answer
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for the challenges of our time. And when at Fatima, she says, you know, God wishes to establish
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devotion to my Immaculate Heart as the means by which we would defeat things like communism and
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atheism and other attacks on the Church, both outside and inside, that kind of stuck. And it was
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a decision of saying that this is certainly well worth dedicating a little dinky human life to, and
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that is to let people know that she's really the answer. She's the answer because God has designated
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her as the answer. This is not a Marian ego trip. This is obedience to the Father, the Son, and the Holy
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Spirit. And that's why no one else can really say that they're the daughter of the Father, the mother
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of the Son, and the spouse of the Holy Spirit like Our Lady can. So I think for a particular time,
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John Henry, devotion is wonderful. A love of Our Lady is great. But I think we've got to see her as
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the answer for the difficulties that are facing us ubiquitously at the present time, both in the Church
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and in the world. Indeed, indeed. And I'm going to take us on a funny aside, but it's really central to
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this issue. And that's because, so as you said that, all I could think of was, you know, our
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predicament right now is really in the face of Satan. I mean, if at any time the world was severely
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in the grip of Satan, it seems so right now more than any other time. And that's why sort of,
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it's like the final answer. Because in the beginning, when the devils rebelled, it was also over
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seeing Our Lady, this humble human, not only human, but of the weaker sex, would be the one
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that they'd be called to serve in a way. Not like God, not that she is God, but just that she's going
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to be the mother of God. And that freaked them out. And so in making Our Lady now the answer, as you say,
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or the sort of solution to the problem that the demons caused now in the biggest way is also
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fulfillment of that. Can you unpack that for us a little bit? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
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Take, just for example, our country. Our country used to be at one time a Judeo-Christian country.
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Well, I should be speaking particularly about the United States, but of course it extends beyond
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to North America. And then we became only a natural law country. And now I believe it's a
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post-natural law country. And what I mean by that is there's no longer a consensus about what is good
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and what is evil. Well, that's a basic breaking. It's a retaliation. This is a removal of what we
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hear in Romans that God has placed his law in our hearts. And we're now saying, no, thank you. We
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don't want to obey the law in our hearts. And I think Satan used to be settled because he had to.
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I think it's very clear he no longer has to be settled. He can come out and actually attract
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crowds. I mean, when you had the first major satanic gathering in a hotel in Massachusetts,
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they sold out very quickly. So I think in the past, Satan had to hide back in a certain sense.
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Now he's coming forward boldly. He's being applauded for it. Television shows dedicated to
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him, movies dedicated to him. And so this is the time, I believe, like no other time when we've got
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to look to Revelations 12. We have the woman clothed with the sun, and her task is to crush the head of
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Satan, as prophesied in 315 of Genesis. But now it's in real time. This is a battle between God's
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greatest creature and God's most heinous creature in our present moment of human history.
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Indeed, indeed. And I love how you said that. It's the battle between creatures,
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and therefore that distinguishes right away. Wait a minute. Jesus isn't a creature. He's God
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Almighty. So the devil is a creature and Our Lady is a creature, but the two creatures on the most
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opposite pole. Amazing. Okay. So let's get to the central point here. This Vatican document that
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came out, what is it first of all, and why is it so troublesome? Yeah, well, first of all, you know,
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let's note the Vatican document from the Dicastory for the Doctrine of Faith. It came out on May 17th of
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2024. It is a new disciplinary document on how to examine mystic phenomena. Now, I think it's very
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important to establish that it's a change from the disciplinary norms that we had in 1978. Well,
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that tells us two things I think are critically important. One is disciplines change. Otherwise,
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we wouldn't need this new discipline, or the Vatican wouldn't see the need for it.
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Now, secondly, there could be a new discipline that comes out under the next pontificate. So
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what I would say is, let's start by saying, okay, disciplines of the church are still things I
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believe we are called to respect, we are called to obey, but we can analyze them. That's what leads
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to, quite frankly, better disciplines. So in 1978, the church had norms. At that time, the Congregation
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for the Doctrine of Faith gave out norms and had three general categories. Now, these categories,
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very briefly, were constate supernaturalitate. That means that the bishop declares that this event,
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this mystical reported event, to be of a supernatural character. Then there was a middle category,
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which is non-constate supernaturalitate, which means the church does not, or the bishop in this case,
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he doesn't approve it, and he doesn't negate it. The supernatural character hasn't been established,
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but it's not been denied. And then traditionally, John Henry, we had the third category, which is
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constate non supernaturalitate. And that's where the local bishop would declare that it is his
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discernment that this is not of a supernatural character. The only reason I go through those is
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that this new document is a radical change from those three categories, which in a real sense have
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been in the church for the last 500 years or so. So what's the change? The change is, first of all,
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that this new DDF document has taken away the ability of a local bishop to declare a phenomenon in his
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diocese to be of a supernatural character. Now, that's a rather significant historical shift.
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It's basically saying that at this point, no bishop could make a declaration. So as we know at Fatima,
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the local bishop made the declaration. At Lourdes, the local bishop made the declaration of being a
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supernatural character. And at Akita and so on. It's worth mentioning a bunch of those because
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so many of these beloved apparitions that we have, that everybody knows and everybody loves,
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came about this way. The local bishop says, yes, it's of supernatural origin. Just so we need to
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understand how stunning this is. Keep going, please. What now happens, John Henry, is that
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the local bishop submits it to the DDF. The DDF gives the permission to now put it in one of six new
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categories. And we don't have to go through all these categories, but the major point is the top
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category, the most a bishop can declare only after the DDF gives him permission to do so,
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is now what is called nihil opstat. Now nihil opstat means nothing stands in the way. Oftentimes,
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you know, if you get, if you read a book, you're an author, you write a book, you send to your bishop,
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there's a censor who examines it to see, is there anything theologically wrong with it? If not,
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he puts down nihil opstat, nothing stands in the way, and then the bishop grants what's called an
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imprimatur, let it be printed. Well, now the DDF is saying that only after their approval can a local
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bishop come up with a nihil opstat. But this new document is very strong in saying that does not
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require anyone to believe in authenticity. In fact, they prohibit a statement on authenticity
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specifically, but only nihil opstat. And that's, that's the most generous of the, of the six new
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categories that a bishop can do after the DDF approves. So that's a, it's a very significant
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historic shift. Indeed. And, and are they then, is it being reserved to the Pope or, or this Vatican
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office to determine something beyond that or, or, or what? Yeah, it's a great question. It is being
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precisely reserved to the DDF. So the bishop submits a report to the DDF. The DDF has now a, some type of
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subcommission, let's say six or eight or, or 10 members of the DDF. And they are now really making
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the ultimate discernment of any reported phenomena from the five continents. So theologically what's
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happening, and once again, as I've specified before, I'm not calling for disobedience to these. I, I obey
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the disciplines of the church. I'm simply acknowledging the significant theological shift of this,
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that the local bishop submits it to the DDF. The DDF in a, in a very centralizing move can give then
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the bishop only permission, the highest possible positive statement, to declare it as a nihil
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obstant. So yes, it's, it's much more centralized. And it's a fair question to say, well, is it really
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good that a smaller group of theologians has more discernment, power and authority than, than groups
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of bishops? I think that's a fair question. It's an interesting concept because, okay, so the church
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is all about subsidiarity, which is the principle of let the locals deal with it, basically. But also,
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even in this Vatican, they talked a lot about decentralization, decentralization. And yet,
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the opposite is happening in practice. Whereas thousands of bishops all over the world to take
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care of their dioceses, and yet they, and their theologians there, who are all there seeing what
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they're seeing, aren't allowed to make this determination as they have been in the past.
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And then it just goes to this central committee of eight or 10 or however many, as you mentioned.
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But then even beyond that, they're not even still able to determine anything of supernatural origin.
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Nope, just it's free from error or none that we can see right now. But, and that's it.
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That's right. Now, in fact, in this document, the DDF has taken itself out, as well as the local bishop,
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of having authority to declare anything supernatural. The text says,
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only the Pope, in rare circumstances, end quote, can make a declaration of supernatural character.
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Now, to be fair, what was the rationale? The rationale was, they were afraid that many people
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globally thought that you had to believe in a private revelation decision by a local bishop.
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My own comment on that was, I think many people understood that private revelation is very different
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than public revelation, than scripture and tradition as articulated by the magisterium.
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But if not, then that's a fine thing to emphasize, to simply say, look, even when something is approved
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by the church in the area of private revelation, the faithful are not obliged to believe that.
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It's not to be believed on the same level as scripture and tradition.
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I'm not sure it really required such a radical chain out of that fear.
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And so now, even the DDF cannot make a declaration of supernatural character,
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But it kind of begs the question a little bit, John Henry, that,
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well, what if Our Lady wants to appear more than on rare occasions?
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You know, I'm not sure the mother is necessarily going to follow,
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and I say this respectfully, but going to follow the dictates of a Vatican congregation
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The mother comes when she sees people in droves leaving Christ, leaving the gospel,
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leaving the church, leaving understanding of the right to life and the evils of abortion.
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If some think it's too frequent, well, I think they could have a good conversation with her.
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But I don't think it's going to limit the mother in terms of when she chooses
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to visit us with these critically important messages.
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Pope Pius XI said men must look for the peace of Christ in the kingdom of Christ.
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And he urged that the faithful give public honor to Christ the King
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so that individuals and states would submit once more to the rule of their Savior.
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And that is why LifeSite News is raising up the image of Christ the King across the United States.
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It's very interesting because Our Lady has been known to come when there's true calamity
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and the calamity of the loss of life and horrible atrocities, which are so extreme.
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That's not as extreme as the loss of souls, as the great falling away that we've experienced
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in these last hundred years more than ever throughout the history of the Church.
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And that's the death of souls is probably the scariest thing.
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And so the frequency of Our Lady's apparition, well, you tell us,
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what have you seen in terms of your study of history in terms of the frequency of apparitions increasing?
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Yeah, well, we certainly have had more authentic Church-approved apparitions during this age of Mary
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than arguably the whole rest of the Church's history, at least in terms of a formalization.
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I think, you know, John Henry, when the press calls and asks for, you know, the why question,
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why so many apparitions, I think there's two answers.
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One is because heaven is generous, because the Father and the Son and the Spirit love us so much
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they send us, our Immaculate Human Mother, the Spiritual Mother of all peoples, to help us return to the gospel.
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That is, the fact that we're getting so many of these apparitions, I think, indicates that the world as a family
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is not doing a great job of living up to the gospel.
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The purpose is never to take the place of Scripture and tradition and the magisterium,
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but it is to get us to live the more challenging parts of those, which we oftentimes neglect,
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I mean, Jesus says, when the bridegroom is gone, then they shall fast.
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That means all disciples should be doing some fasting, reparation.
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But I would hate to think of the 20th century, John Henry, without the gift of something like Fatima.
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And I think, too, you know, when Ambassador Howard D., the ambassador of the Philippines, who we just lost a few days ago,
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he was the reason we got a marion year in 1987, because he met with the Holy Father, St. John Paul II,
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and told him about the great marion year that had taken place in the Philippines.
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And he was always called by John Paul Our Lady's ambassador, because regardless of what he was supposed to talk about,
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But Howard met with Cardinal Ratzinger and said, why is there not an encyclical on Fatima?
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And Cardinal Ratzinger responded, because to do an encyclical on Fatima would be like doing an encyclical on the gospel.
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And that's how much it brings to life our commitment to faith.
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And the more you love the mother, the more you're going to love the Eucharist.
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The more you follow authentic apparitions, the more you're going to be true to the heart of the church.
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What would things look like if this had been the way the church had handled apparitions of Our Lady over 100 years ago?
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So if we reverse time and said, okay, this new DDF ruling is in place in 1900 and going forward, take a guess.
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What would that have done to the church in the last number of years, especially with the approved apparitions?
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Well, I think there's the natural and the understandable question, John Henry, of is it true?
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And that's the common question that the faithful have.
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And when, and again, assuming the best of intentions, I'm not judging any hearts with this.
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I'm just trying to offer some theological commentary on it.
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But when we hesitate to make that call, there certainly is a new dubiosity with this.
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Well, there's some good fruits, but we're not saying it's Our Lady and we're not prohibiting you.
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But that's a lot of knots instead of, no, we believe that Our Lady of the Rosary appeared at Fatima, for example.
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And to not have that declaration, in a certain sense, it takes the decision and to some degree it puts it in the hands and the hearts of the laity.
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Now, in a certain sense, that can be fine, but the presupposition is always, well, the bishop should be wiser.
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And so, the idea that Fatima was not really ever approved, or right before that, Lourdes, or Beno, or Borang, I think it would bring an ambiguity into the power and the importance of these messages.
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I mean, quite frankly, the Mother of God is taking the time to visit us.
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I think it's okay to say, we really think it's she.
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We have to do our critical thought, and certainly the dicastery is encouraging that.
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At the same time, the Church has the capacity to say, yes, Mary appeared at Fatima.
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She appeared at Ruta Bach with the miraculous medal, St. Catherine Labore.
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Because that gives the faithful certainty, and that will buttress our faith and response to the message.
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The call of reparation, the call of consecration, and the call of seeing the Immaculate Heart of Mary as our refuge, and the promise, the promise that in the end, her Immaculate Heart will triumph.
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That gives us courage in the midst of a very intense battle.
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In respect to Fatima, you talked before about the need of people, that there's basically no need for people to believe in private revelation.
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Although I think Fatima has a special place that way.
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I mean, technically speaking, no Catholic is ever obliged to believe in a private revelation, period.
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Now, once we enter the reality and life of the Church, if we're going to have a centuricum ecclesiae, we're going to think with the Church, as one theologian, Fr. Jordan Aumann, who is very well known in Rome during his days,
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it would be reprehensible to publicly speak against something like Fatima.
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And what about when it enters liturgy, John Henry?
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What do you do on Divine Mercy Sunday if you don't believe in it?
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Or what do you do on February 11th if you don't grant that Our Lady really appeared at Lourdes?
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So you would say, in a secondary sense, when the Church brings it into its liturgy, that brings a whole new appreciation,
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and therefore, there should be a reciprocal response by the faithful of a new credibility.
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You know, you've had so many popes sending golden roses to Fatima.
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Well, if you don't accept Fatima, you're presupposing that all those popes are wrong.
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So with these approved apparitions, especially ones who have entered liturgical feasts,
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that should give people a further encouragement to open their hearts to this reality,
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even though, technically speaking, they don't have to.
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This is obviously damaging to the faithful who want to or need Our Lady,
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because in these times, it's pretty darn depressing.
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I'm sorry to say, you know, but the message from heaven, at least for my life,
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I have hope, you know, I might not see it in my lifetime, maybe,
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And with that sort of removed, and for the most part, I've never been to Fatima.
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So I'm hearing it through the Church, through the Church's approval,
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through the approval that came from the various Popes
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and the Popes speaking about it themselves and so on.
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Yet with this new approach, none of that is going to happen.
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But you said something very comforting in the beginning,
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and that is that these are disciplinary norms and that they can be changed.
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And again, the DDF would respond back by saying,
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oh, yeah, we're not saying that apparitions can't happen.
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We're just saying we're not going to have bishops, you know, approve them.
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And I would simply try to point out that when you remove the top category,
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the ability of the bishop to say, this is supernatural,
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the highest of which is only saying there's nothing that stands in its way.
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And quite frankly, if you go through the other five categories,
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there are different gradations of more, let us say, negativity.
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So, for example, you have the third category is kurator.
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Kurator literally means, you know, be careful, have caution.
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And on that third level, it says, well, there could be worldwide spiritual fruits,
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and we don't think it wise for the bishop to banish it
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but we want the people, we want the bishop to dissuade the people.
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Now, once again, as a theological comment, not as a disobedience,
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but that's a dubious category, John Henry, for a couple of reasons.
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First of all, it sounds like you can get great international fruits from a bad tree.
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That is to say, why would you even have a category that says you're going to have
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international, undeniable international fruits,
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but we've got to get back to Scripture with Matthew 7, 15 through 20,
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and the reference is specifically about how you discern prophecy.
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that, you know, a good tree can't produce bad fruit,
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So there's a bit of ambiguity, I would hold theologically, in that category.
00:27:44.500
because I think that's also a pastoral responsibility.
00:27:51.820
but I think there's some theological issues with the categories
00:27:55.560
that I don't think necessarily calls for an improvement
00:28:01.520
Let's think through that, or help us think through that,
00:28:08.720
where there's good fruit coming from a good tree
00:28:24.100
And therefore, you know, you need something like this,
00:28:27.040
because, so how do we discern what our Lord meant there
00:28:34.580
How do we discern what is good and what is evil
00:28:53.360
there will be a great outpouring of grace at our parish.
00:28:56.620
Well, in a certain sense, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
00:29:00.920
and receives communion, you're going to get it.
00:29:10.020
So it's a qualitative and a quantitative evaluation
00:29:25.920
I'm going to personally use the example Medjugorje.
00:29:28.180
People have different opinions, and that's fine.
00:29:31.680
But you're not going to have Satan able to produce
00:29:52.080
And so that's how you examine these things as well.
00:30:15.780
I just don't like the fact that this guy's got a tennis car
00:30:21.880
So we have to also try to follow legitimate criteria
00:30:32.820
Because the Holy Spirit will not contradict himself
00:30:35.780
by giving doctrinal error to an individual person.
00:30:47.100
like Bridget of Sweden, like Catherine of Siena,
00:31:06.420
St. Thomas said it's why they had tongues at Pentecost.
00:31:56.200
but there's a line that seems to make reference
00:32:45.260
confer and will follow the Church's guidelines,
00:32:57.240
You can say, well, I believe it's actually true.