The John-Henry Westen Show - May 28, 2025


Ex-IVF Director SPEAKS OUT： Why I Left the Industry for Life


Episode Stats

Length

29 minutes

Words per Minute

135.91348

Word Count

4,076

Sentence Count

241

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

2


Summary

In this episode, Dr. Craig Trzynski talks about why he left the field of in vitro fertilization, and why he decided to leave the field altogether. Dr. Trzynski is a Ph.D. from the University of California, Los Angeles, specializing in reproductive technology and specializing in IVF.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 And I followed the wishes of the patient, and I let those embryos die in culture.
00:00:07.400 Hello, my friends. The issue of in vitro fertilization is very confusing today.
00:00:12.340 It is being promoted by the likes of President Donald Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance.
00:00:19.200 And you'd think it's something really great, because it's, you know, bringing life to couples who can't have children,
00:00:25.240 and yet it's much more complicated.
00:00:26.600 We have with us someone today who ran a lab for in vitro fertilization.
00:00:31.900 He is a Ph.D. who has dealt with this personally and left the practice, the work in that area, out of his personal convictions.
00:00:42.740 We're going to learn what those were in this conversation with Dr. Trzynski.
00:00:47.860 Thank you so much for joining us.
00:00:49.920 It's a pleasure. Really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today.
00:00:53.740 Let's begin, as you always do, with the sign of the cross.
00:00:55.580 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
00:01:01.300 Let me start off, Dr. Craig, if you don't mind, I'll call you Craig. Does that work for you?
00:01:05.480 That's absolutely fine. Yes.
00:01:07.220 Very good.
00:01:07.980 So early in your career, you worked in the reproductive technology involving,
00:01:12.720 I think you were in even exotic animals with the goal of preserving and propagating endangered species.
00:01:17.940 But then after that, you obtained additional medical degrees, focusing on IVF for couples for several years.
00:01:26.620 But then you walked away from that, from the whole IVF industry.
00:01:30.080 What led you to do that?
00:01:31.760 Many people don't realize that, especially when IVF first started, the laboratory technology,
00:01:38.820 that knowledge and experience came from people in the animal industry.
00:01:44.040 So it was a very normal transition, actually, to go from having training with embryo transfer and IVF
00:01:52.380 and reproductive technologies and animals to the human laboratory.
00:01:56.960 I got into it for a variety of reasons.
00:02:01.900 One was I could earn a living doing that.
00:02:05.640 And I felt that I was doing what was good for patients.
00:02:09.840 I was helping them have babies.
00:02:13.520 After being in the field for about seven years, though,
00:02:17.060 I slowly began to identify the disorder and harm that was occurring.
00:02:24.160 And these things began to weigh heavily on me.
00:02:30.360 I was a cradle Catholic.
00:02:32.300 I knew that the church had taught against it, but I just felt like they obviously didn't fully understand.
00:02:40.960 But over time, I began to see the wisdom in church teaching.
00:02:46.660 And there were a number of things that kind of led up to it.
00:02:51.500 It didn't happen all at once.
00:02:52.880 But the final straw was when patients who had embryos didn't want to freeze the extra embryos and wanted me to discard them.
00:03:02.640 That resulted in some conflict with me and my boss at the time, which was the MD that was taking care of that patient.
00:03:12.580 And it was clearly my job was at stake.
00:03:18.420 And unfortunately, I caved and I followed the wishes of the patient.
00:03:23.240 And I let those embryos die in culture.
00:03:26.440 After that, I realized that I couldn't stay in the field, that eventually, like that particular event,
00:03:37.080 I would continuously be required to do things against my conscience.
00:03:41.920 So I found work because I had family to support.
00:03:46.660 I found work and I completely left the field.
00:03:49.800 So what did you begin to see from IVF?
00:03:54.600 Was there one particular that event that just did it for you?
00:03:58.900 And sort of did you walk away right away?
00:04:01.600 Did that take a while to hit you or how did that proceed?
00:04:04.600 Yeah, so I like to describe the experience that the patient has going through IVF as a roller coaster ride.
00:04:15.280 And during that process, really very little is done to kind of try to determine the underlying cause of the infertility.
00:04:25.640 In fact, if you have a young patient who or young couple that's aggressive and wants to move to IVF,
00:04:35.320 you don't necessarily in the field, you don't necessarily want to discourage that because that helps your statistics.
00:04:41.840 The younger your patients are, the less serious their infertility, the better chances there are for conception.
00:04:50.960 And so during the course of that roller coaster ride, it's very difficult.
00:04:58.680 It produces a lot of pain and there's ups when things are going well and then down when they're not.
00:05:05.740 And the most painful of it all is when after all of this trauma, so to speak,
00:05:13.980 and maybe even multiple attempts, the patient may have a positive pregnancy test that results in a spontaneous abortion
00:05:25.480 or an ectopic pregnancy where now that not only does the fetus not survive, but the woman's lost her tube.
00:05:36.720 So there's just a lot of pain and difficulties that the patient experiences.
00:05:45.460 And then also there's very many social and legal issues that come up.
00:05:51.120 There was a publication that the American Society for Reproductive Medicine used to put out called Legally Speaking.
00:05:58.960 And it was a lawyer that was heavily involved in the kind of the legal aspects of IVF.
00:06:05.320 And there were essentially cases that were published, stories about those cases every single month.
00:06:12.980 And you can't make it up, right?
00:06:15.080 Whenever you have taken embryos or gametes out of the body and you put them in storage or you use surrogacy,
00:06:24.420 things get very ugly and very messy if there is, say, a separation between the couple.
00:06:31.320 And so they kind of, from a natural law perspective, you look at that and go,
00:06:41.060 there's something not right about that.
00:06:43.320 It doesn't make sense.
00:06:44.760 So what are we doing?
00:06:46.080 So on the inside of the industry, do you think the sort of roller coaster kind of stuff,
00:06:55.780 even the pressure that's there on that couple, is it out of laziness or is it a profit motive?
00:07:03.900 What's behind that?
00:07:05.180 Yeah, I think for, to the largest extent, the people in the field genuinely want to help couples.
00:07:14.520 They just believe, they truly believe that the technological approach is the best.
00:07:20.620 And however, I will add the caveat that, you know, laboratories are to construct a laboratory,
00:07:29.180 you're going to pay half a million to a million dollars in equipment.
00:07:34.140 You have a staff of highly trained, highly compensated people.
00:07:40.020 When a, say you're an academic program or you're in a private program,
00:07:44.080 when you spend that kind of money, there's a lot of pressure to make sure that you actually use it.
00:07:49.680 So there is kind of that bias, you know, from what you believe to be the best way to pursue it,
00:07:58.060 but also that financial aspect is going to automatically just practically push you in that direction.
00:08:05.500 What's really a sort of comprehensive list of the risks to mothers engaged in IVF?
00:08:10.600 There is a higher incidence of adverse events to the pregnancy, things like gestational diabetes,
00:08:22.060 preeclampsia, preterm delivery, a small for gestational age, sometimes also large for gestational age.
00:08:31.920 There's also an increased risk of congenital abnormalities to the children, about 30 to 40% higher risk to the children.
00:08:43.520 There is also the, what we're learning now, epigenetic changes.
00:08:53.140 So these are not changes to the genes themselves, but how the genes are activated.
00:08:59.600 It's so that a person that was born through IVF could have health issues later in life associated with those epigenetic changes.
00:09:13.620 And so not every, not every person that's born through IVF will have that, you know, the vast majority of them are normal.
00:09:23.700 However, there is definitely an increased incidence that's indisputable.
00:09:29.000 There's been a study after study after study done that has proven that.
00:09:35.820 So that is, that is there.
00:09:39.340 There's a few different reasons for that.
00:09:42.200 One is, could be a large part is the fact that the health of the couple is not necessarily maximized before they're in essence forced to conceive.
00:09:53.720 And two is, when the woman goes through these procedures, it's stressful.
00:09:59.640 She ends up having super high levels of hormones.
00:10:04.160 While they're stimulating instead of one follicle, they more on average get about 10 follicles.
00:10:11.200 So those hormone levels are completely not normal.
00:10:16.280 And so that could be having an impact, but also the invasiveness of the procedures themselves, the embryo culture, although the field has made great strides in understanding how to culture an embryo, we can't match what happens in the natural environment.
00:10:35.460 And so all those things can contribute to alterations in this epigenetic activation of the genes.
00:10:45.280 One of the very strange things about IVF is that these children can be frozen.
00:10:51.800 It's sort of been suspended.
00:10:53.400 I don't even know what to call it, but frozen for years.
00:10:56.240 What's the longest period of term a child's been in freezing for and then successfully brought to birth?
00:11:04.380 Yes.
00:11:04.700 So my understanding is the National Embryo Donation Center had a donation and a transfer and adoption of a embryo that had been frozen somewhere around 30 to 35 years.
00:11:17.960 I don't remember exactly the number of years, but that's been, to my knowledge, that's the record right now for humans.
00:11:27.180 I actually don't know.
00:11:28.780 I'm sure that the animals have been frozen longer than that, but I'm not aware of it.
00:11:37.420 So, yeah, quite a long time.
00:11:39.880 Pope Pius XI said men must look for the peace of Christ in the kingdom of Christ.
00:11:46.480 And he urged that the faithful give public honor to Christ the King so that individuals and states would submit once more to the rule of their Savior.
00:11:54.840 And that is why LifeSite News is raising up the image of Christ the King across the United States.
00:12:00.900 And you can help us reach millions more.
00:12:04.260 Please pledge your support today for these billboards at lifefunder.com slash Christ is King.
00:12:10.860 We've been having a debate at LifeSite over this issue of embryo adoption and what it means.
00:12:19.580 The church is sort of not really pronounced on it.
00:12:23.740 The one saying from the Pope at the time was that there doesn't seem to be a solution to this problem.
00:12:32.380 And so some Orthodox theologians in the church who condemn in vitro fertilization have nonetheless said for those babies that are already created through this process,
00:12:45.280 there should be an option to allow them to be implanted in sort of adopted mother, adoptive mothers, having nothing to do with in vitro fertilization,
00:12:56.540 but only in an effort to save the child's life.
00:12:59.000 I'd love to hear your take on that since you've sort of been in that field in a way most would not have.
00:13:05.300 Yes.
00:13:06.200 So first of all, I don't have a position on whether embryo adoption is morally licit.
00:13:14.540 The whole church and all the theologians haven't come to an agreement yet.
00:13:19.340 I certainly don't have the wisdom to be able to make that call.
00:13:23.900 I do get somewhat frustrated by some on one side or the other that absolutely with certainty know the answer.
00:13:31.920 But I from my position, I'll I'll I'll talk also a little bit about the technical aspects of it.
00:13:39.680 But you can think of a scenario where it would be completely licit scenario.
00:13:47.180 A couple who maybe has these embryos, is remorseful from what, you know, the actions that they have taken.
00:13:56.840 They they maybe for health reasons can no longer accept those embryos and have them transferred to them.
00:14:04.880 And that the couple who's, you know, adopting them are doing it mostly because of the kind of the charitable reason for it.
00:14:18.380 Right. To bring these children to life and that the two get along.
00:14:24.160 They're going to continue to communicate and do the special things that will be necessary for the well-being of that child.
00:14:31.800 So that would be an example of a scenario where it could be completely licit.
00:14:36.920 But in a pluralistic, practical world that we live in, that probably doesn't happen very often.
00:14:47.400 And so there are lots of ways in which harm can come to that child because of the way they were brought into the world.
00:14:55.200 An example would be, let's say, it's a couple who had decided to go through IVF using both donor sperm and donor eggs.
00:15:09.080 So they're not even parents.
00:15:12.000 And they produce these embryos and then they end up becoming divorced.
00:15:18.740 So they don't want to just throw the embryos away.
00:15:21.580 They decide to donate them.
00:15:23.340 Well, then, when the couple adopts them, first of all, there's plenty of information that demonstrates that open adoption is much better for the child.
00:15:36.620 They need to know where they came from.
00:15:39.440 And so if you try to do it anonymously, that typically results in more harm to the child, social issues, mental issues for that child.
00:15:54.180 Especially if the adoptive parents are now trying to keep that truth from the child.
00:16:02.100 Because essentially they have to lie to them for their entire life.
00:16:06.000 And it doesn't work, right?
00:16:07.420 They perceive it.
00:16:09.500 And they begin to not trust their parents.
00:16:12.060 And then they begin to search.
00:16:14.660 And so in cases like that, you could still make the argument that, well, that person was better off being born than being left in frozen storage.
00:16:25.500 But if you believe that the earth here is not our final destination, our destination is heavy.
00:16:35.640 And if when Christ returns, he will handle that problem.
00:16:43.160 He will take care of that problem.
00:16:44.980 And surely all of those embryos in frozen storage have not committed sin.
00:16:52.620 Yes, they have original sin and they've not been baptized, but they can be baptized by desire.
00:16:58.000 And so if you think about it, in some cases it would be better if they stayed in perpetual storage until Christ returned.
00:17:08.420 Very complicated questions, especially for the theologians.
00:17:11.360 One of the things that they seem to have worked out is that the freezing itself is intrinsically evil.
00:17:17.060 So that that complicates it even more.
00:17:19.480 And that's one of the things where you are left at a conundrum as to how and what.
00:17:24.560 But boy, oh boy.
00:17:25.780 John Henry, there's a there's a technical issue that I that I just briefly what we'd like to bring up.
00:17:31.420 Yeah, please.
00:17:31.900 It's not that clean.
00:17:33.820 So in other words, these embryos have been frozen at different protocols over a period of many years.
00:17:42.440 In some cases, the records are not all there for exactly how they're frozen and techniques have have evolved.
00:17:51.800 So when somebody may be thawing an embryo that was frozen in the early 90s or the late 80s, and here it is 2025, it may not be the most ideal method for those to be thawed.
00:18:07.960 And sometimes many embryos can be left be frozen together in a straw.
00:18:13.080 And so when when they're all thawed at one time, let's say they kept five embryos in a container and all embryos have to be thawed at one time.
00:18:24.340 So then if if all five survive, now you're left with the dilemma.
00:18:31.980 Do you transfer those all five embryos with the chance of there being multiple pregnancies or do you now refreeze and subject them to additional harm?
00:18:43.460 So from a technical perspective, there's lots of lots of issues that are not really fully understood.
00:18:52.260 You obviously are Catholic now.
00:18:54.640 Were you always Catholic during your time as an IVF practitioner as well?
00:18:59.680 Or how did that work?
00:19:01.280 And how did your faith sort of impact your decision here as well?
00:19:04.740 I am a cradle Catholic.
00:19:07.060 Grew up going to church every Sunday.
00:19:08.920 Anyway, I again, I knew I knew that the church taught against it.
00:19:15.760 I can't say that I really ever read the church teaching on IVF.
00:19:22.200 At the time, I simply believe that the church couldn't fully understand what it was we were trying to do and how necessary IVF is in many scenarios.
00:19:36.220 But when I began to struggle, when I saw the disorder and the harm that we were causing, the light of natural reason came to me.
00:19:48.820 And there's no way I would have been able to leave my profession without the faith that gave me the courage and the confidence to do that.
00:20:01.940 It definitely drew me to my faith and it's why I'm so active now in restorative reproductive medicine and natural family planning, which was amazingly enlightening.
00:20:19.660 And it's so important in terms of the restorative approach.
00:20:27.000 It's just unbelievable that, you know, the church stood its ground and it turns out to be that they were right.
00:20:36.500 So tell us about that, because I think this is one piece that even when people talk about IVF and they sort of know that, okay, it's off the books.
00:20:45.680 We're not allowed to do that.
00:20:47.020 But I think that's end of story.
00:20:48.300 And yet the methods that have been developed to help women who are having trouble with infertility and couples are actually at a better success rate than IVF itself.
00:21:04.960 Tell us about that. Tell us about what you do.
00:21:07.020 So today I work on a couple telehealth platforms.
00:21:10.880 One is My Catholic Doctor and the other one is Femme.
00:21:14.820 And I've kind of developed, I guess, filled a need in terms of the men because there began to be some treatment, some restorative treatment for women through NAPRO.
00:21:34.740 Everyone's heard of NAPRO, Dr. Thomas Hilgers and the work that he did.
00:21:39.860 And now there's other methods to go along with that.
00:21:44.300 It's becoming a whole field where we now can debate and we can, you know, debate the fine points and share best practices.
00:21:51.740 But what's what's really wonderful about it is natural family planning is used as a diagnostic tool.
00:22:03.080 Use it as a diagnostic tool to establish whether the cycle is normal and when there's observations there that can lead to an understanding of what might be going on.
00:22:22.280 And then the chart works as a as a device to time accurate blood tests and in other diagnostic procedures like ultrasound or or even surgery.
00:22:37.620 And then when it comes time to treatment, the chart helps to define when those treatments are conducted.
00:22:45.680 For instance, if a woman needs some hormonal stimulation in order to have a normal ovulation, still only shooting for one egg.
00:22:54.400 But sometimes hormonal stimulation is necessary for that or even for the man.
00:23:00.000 Let's say the man has anti-sperm antibodies.
00:23:03.760 So he has immune response to his own sperm.
00:23:08.640 So you can actually treat that man with immunosuppressive drugs, but you don't want to do it blindly and have him be immunosuppressed for a whole month or longer.
00:23:19.440 It's better to be able to know exactly when the woman is going to be in a fertile period and start the immunosuppressant at the right time in regards to that.
00:23:30.160 So by the time that the that that the egg is ovulated and and fertilization is going to occur, he will have been suppressed enough that the antibodies will allow the sperm to work.
00:23:42.600 So so so it can treat both both couples and the natural family planning method is very, very important.
00:23:50.480 I know because we we personally have a child because of this very thing is we might my wife after our seventh child, she had three miscarriages and she knew as as many mothers know that she was to have another child.
00:24:05.200 But after losing three, we were told by our doctor at the time, you'll never have another alive child.
00:24:12.100 You've got to come see me about your options and and those very sad experience.
00:24:19.300 But she she prayed earnestly, let him not be your prophet, oh, Lord.
00:24:22.480 And it was very interesting because after that we through charting and and then through we were prescribed by the NAPRO tech doctor progesterone that gave us our miracle baby, you know, who's now 13.
00:24:37.700 So, yeah, just it's a beautiful work that you and many of your colleagues are doing as the answer to so many prayers.
00:24:45.180 And it's out there for for people who are struggling with infertility.
00:24:51.000 Just got to know you've got to look up a NAPRO doctor and someone.
00:24:55.140 So where can they get a hold of you to direct them to the right path?
00:24:59.060 My Catholic doctor.
00:25:00.460 So just the whole word is one word, my catholic doctor dot com.
00:25:06.760 And on there is a whole group of very faithful providers.
00:25:11.880 You scroll through there if you want to find me.
00:25:16.280 I'm in every state I could be seen by anybody in any state.
00:25:20.300 Again, most of my work is primarily with the men helping them be able to be tested, have their fertility tested in a more illicit way with respect and dignity.
00:25:32.920 But I also sometimes consult with the couple and kind of point them in the right direction.
00:25:38.960 I mean, I'm not a medical doctor, so I don't do the treatments, but I can, you know, in an essence, be a coach that points them in the right direction and matches them up with the right physician so that they can get the care that they need.
00:25:54.300 Beautiful.
00:25:54.640 Finally, I wanted to ask you, what is your message to President Trump, Vice President Vance and other pro-life politicians or meaning to be pro-life politicians, but their cheerleaders for IVF, especially since that Alabama court decision?
00:26:09.420 I believe maybe they didn't get the right advice in regards to IVF.
00:26:17.760 I think during the campaign, they were probably somewhat forced to make the statement that they did because it probably would have been difficult for them to come out beforehand to say, I'm against IVF.
00:26:33.420 I believe that was somewhat of a campaign decision.
00:26:39.080 Afterwards, now he's put out the executive order.
00:26:42.280 I was somewhat saddened by that, but also somewhat encouraged because now that he didn't quite, you know, trigger it, so to speak.
00:26:53.180 I think he's really just starting the dialogue.
00:26:58.660 And so this discussion that we're having today has been magnified across the country, multiple voices on both sides, of course.
00:27:10.360 And my hope and my desire is that, at the very least, we're going to get more support for the restorative approach.
00:27:20.960 Most people don't even know about it.
00:27:22.600 I mean, unless small Catholic circles of people know about it, you know, about NAPRO, there's FEM, there's NeoFertility, there's these brands of restorative reproductive medicine.
00:27:34.800 But the general public doesn't know, and so I'm hoping that at least this discussion is going to bring it to light.
00:27:44.260 I've been able to participate in some publications through the Heritage Foundation, through the Charlotte Looser Institute.
00:27:52.580 So we're trying to get the message out there, but it's, of course, you know, being drowned by everybody's voices out there.
00:28:01.700 And we need to be active in this debate, for sure.
00:28:07.160 Protecting your money doesn't have to be complicated.
00:28:09.700 With stocks, bonds, and crypto, it's easy to feel lost.
00:28:13.300 But gold and silver have been trusted for centuries as a simple, stable store of value in uncertain times.
00:28:19.500 If you had invested $35,000 in gold at the millennium, an amount you can give today tax-free to anyone you love,
00:28:26.040 it would have grown to be worth over $325,000.
00:28:28.880 Call our team at 610-326-2000 and let us step you through crafting a solution for your family.
00:28:36.440 I think it's incredible that the most successful infertility treatment that follows God's plan for procreation is out there,
00:28:50.500 and people don't know, mostly because the profiteering that's done from the inside of the IVF industry
00:28:57.440 drowns out the truth of the natural way to do this with, obviously, help, but still the natural way to do this,
00:29:08.500 which would solve the problems for the majority.
00:29:12.340 It's unreal.
00:29:13.640 But that's why I commend you so much and your colleagues for your great work,
00:29:17.740 and it's a work of the Lord for which we're rooting for you, praying for you.
00:29:22.920 God bless you, and thank you for joining us.
00:29:24.880 Yes, thank you so much.
00:29:26.180 It was a pleasure speaking with you.
00:29:27.880 And God bless all of you, and we'll see you next time.
00:29:30.800 The Lord be with you.
00:29:35.980 I'm Deacon Keith Fournier, and I hope you enjoyed this video from LifeSite News.
00:29:41.800 Check the links in the description for more content like this.
00:29:45.980 You can also connect with LifeSite News on social media
00:29:49.040 and stay up to date with the latest news on life, faith, family, and freedom.
00:29:56.640 Thanks for watching, and may the Lord bless you.