EXCLUSIVE： Michael Matt ｜ Pope Francis has sparked Catholic backlash. Part 1
Summary
In the lead-up to the Synod on Synodality, LifeSite founder and editor-in-chief, Michael Mattiello, joins J.H.W. to talk about the need for a Catholic Identity Conference.
Transcript
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Catholic history is full of, I think, more instances of confusion like this than we
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necessarily want to allow for. I think there were a lot of times where it was where you
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can look at Liberius and Athanasius. Did he or didn't he? Excommunicate Liberius. And
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they're going to go round and round. You're going to see it in the comments section right
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here on your show about Liberius, because these things are really not settled.
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Hey, my friends. As we are now entering into the time of the Synod on Synodality, which we know is
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going to be a nightmare for the Church, the lead-up, all of the pics of the Pope, and all of what's led
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to the Synod itself, just a nightmare. So we're entering into a literal nightmare in the Church,
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and as you know, we're going to have Rome Life Forum at the end of the Synod. We're going to
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have a press conference right before the Forum, exactly after the completion of the Synod,
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where Catholic leaders, lay Catholic leaders, are going to stand for tradition, going to stand for
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the traditional faith against any novelties that might crop up. And I can't think of anyone better
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to speak about that with someone who has fought this fight for not only this last decade, when it's been
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the most insane, but has fought it in his family for generations. Michael Matt, with Remnant TV,
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Remnant newspaper, has been in this fight for tradition, for the true faith, for, well, in his family for,
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what, over a hundred years. And so it's incredible. And he comes not only from that family tradition,
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he comes from a tradition of his own faith and devotion to this, which is truly remarkable.
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Stay tuned for this episode of the John Henry Weston Show.
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Hey, my friends, now is the time to stand up and fight. We are just about to have the Synod on
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Synodality. And everything that you've seen indicates that it's going to be an absolute
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disaster. We have Father James Martin as a personal appointee of the Pope speaking at it. We've got
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Cardinal Cupich, Cardinal Tobin. These picks of the Pope to engage in this Synod are indicative of where
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we're going. We're going into heresy. And at these times of great crisis, the church, especially those
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called in the laity to work for the glory of Christ and his church, are called to gather and
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strategize. Back in 2014, LifeSite launched something called Rome Life Forum. It was a gathering
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at that point of some 75 life and family leaders from all around the world to strategize as to what we
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could do. And when we gathered, the majority of people were most concerned about what? About Pope
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Francis, about what was going on in Rome. But this was 2014. But the life and family leaders saw it
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first. Now, a decade on, we are confronted with some of the most severe challenges the church has ever
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faced. And so our tradition at LifeSite is to continue with Rome Life Forum, which has continued every
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year until we had to take a break over COVID because we weren't permitted. But we're starting
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it up again. Please come, if you feel so called, to Rome, October 31st and November 1st, the very end
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of the Synod on Synodality. And we'll be there to strategize with his eminence, with his excellency,
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ministry, and with many life and family leaders from around the world. For LifeSite News, this is
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Michael, Matt, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me, John Henry.
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So good to be with you. Let's begin, as you always do, with the sign of the cross. In the name of the
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Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Amen. So, Michael, you've been doing a lot. You're
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running right now, your own conference here, which is very, very well known, the Catholic
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Identity Conference. How long has that been going? We're at 12 years, I think, at this point. I lose
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track, but I think it's about 12. So, for most of the apex of the revolution, you have been running
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this conference, and it's needed because it's about the true Catholic identity. One of the themes that
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you've also had here, going back, I think, to its beginning, has been Unite the Clans. And that's
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never been more needed as it is today. We're seeing a division like, I didn't think possible.
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I thought that we had enough division with, you know, just trying to keep orthodoxy in play, and
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orthodoxy particularly around marriage and the family, which has been somehow the focus of so much
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the attack. But of late anyway, and for you forever, the mass has been under attack and a focus
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point, obviously. And I grew in my development, actually, of understanding the faith, largely
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thanks to you and your focus on the mass. I mean, I had it from my youth and stuff like that, but really
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didn't focus on it till after really watching what you were doing, and realizing, oh my gosh, obviously,
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if they want to attack the faith, they're going to attack the mass first. So, tell us about Unite the
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Clans, why that came so strong for you. Unite the Clans is, I think it's largely sort of
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misunderstood or overcomplicated, I should say, because people think what it means is, you know, we got to put an
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effort together whereby every fraternity of St. Peter priests, and every society of St. Pius the
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10th priest, and every Institute of Christ the King priest, and every saint of a con, whatever,
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everybody has to be exactly united before the mission to Unite the Clans is a success. And, of course,
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that's not what it is at all. Because the clans, literally, specifically, I think you'd say,
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has much more of an etymology or a definition as families. Families. We're talking about uniting the
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families, which is uniting the Christian family of the world. All these families in the
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Catholic Church are fighting against the culture war, they're homeschooling, they're doing everything
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they can to survive, have the children keep the faith. Most of them go to the Latin Mass that I'm
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talking about. Not all of them. Many of them do not. They don't have access to the Latin Mass.
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There used to be this idea that if you didn't go to the Latin Mass, well, you know, you ostracize,
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you get away from me. That's not fair, quite frankly. There are a lot of people who are doing the very best
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they can to find the best liturgy they can. Of course, I exclusively go to traditional Latin Mass.
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But that doesn't mean I anathematize everybody who doesn't have access to it.
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So it's basically, Unite the Clans is basically a question of what are we called to do before God
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with respect to Christian charity? We're called to do everything we possibly can to unite.
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And if we do that, if we don't let things like disagreements, internet sign squabbling get in the
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way of bringing us all together as Christian men and women, we're going to become a force to be
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reckoned with. And I think we have become, and by we, I just mean faithful Catholics. That's it.
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We've invented nothing new. Our security, our assurance that we have the truth is that we stand
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on the teaching of Holy Mother Church, the infallible teaching of the Church. We've invented nothing new.
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So if we can come together on that and say, listen, there's nothing in the Creed that says,
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I believe in the Pope. So the Pope should not be, at this particular point, when we have,
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I would say the worst Pope in history, shouldn't necessarily be a point of division. What unites
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us as families is our belief in every tenet of the Creed. And that's most important. Can I say
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the Creed with you? And can we sort of try to survive this incredible, unprecedented period of
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revolution in the Church? And I would say, yes, it's absolutely not only possible to unite the
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clans, it's already happening. In fact, to a large degree, it's already happened. Traditionis
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Gustotus itself, which is the Pope's message or his attempt to cancel the Latin mass, is proof
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positive how the clans of Christendom have come together to such an extent that a very modernist,
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globalist Pope sees the uniting of those clans as a serious threat. And in a sense, he's sort of
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making a fool of himself right now, trying to cancel the mass of little homeschool families and kids.
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And you know what I mean? Like, these are not militant people who are trying to make war on the Pope.
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They're just simple families trying to survive. And yet he seems to see that as a serious threat.
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And you know what? He's right. It is a threat. He should see it as a threat, because we're not going
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away. Now, it's a very interesting thing we have playing out before us, because, and it struck me
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like a ton of bricks. And that was when I saw good cardinals fighting good cardinals, good bishops
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fighting good bishops. I always used to think Akita was about, you know, when the inner message,
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Our Lady of Akita talked about, you will come to a time when you will see bishops fighting against
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bishops, cardinals against cardinals. I always used to think, oh, that's obviously that the good
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cardinals have to fight against, like, it'll be Burke against sewage, but obviously it has to be,
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because they have to defend faith. The upset over many of the latest things, the traditional mass
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being one, but also over COVID and the jab mandate, but also over this concept of the Pope. Now, what is
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the Pope? Is he the Pope or whatever? A lot of that has created divisions inside the church hierarchy
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from, but among the good, among those who you'd say are, should be all in the United Klan, because
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we're trying to defend the faith. And yet there is such massive, massive division. And it's really
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tough. I've taken a position that is really neutral, because honestly, I don't know. But it's hard to sit
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in the middle when you're watching really good, holy men and women be on either side of a debate
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that's massive. The thing with the Pope, we all know that, you know, Father Altman has come out
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and said what he said, and that created a massive stir in the church. But he wasn't the first one. He
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wasn't the first prelate to have said so. He wasn't even the first most high-ranking prelate. We have
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two prelates who said so as well, Bishop Rene Grasida from Texas and Archbishop Jan Pavalenga,
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who is from Kazakhstan. He was actually the former superior of Bishop Schneider, who is himself one
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who would suggest that those, that should never even be thought of, that, you know, Francis isn't
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the Pope. But they're both retired. And maybe that's something, because they're both retired.
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I'm just, I'm trying to put this together and where this fits in terms of church history and where we
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are. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Well, I mean, it's just been repeated so often, it's become a
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cliche that during the Abagnon captivity, that there were saints on both sides, where there
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was a Pope and an anti-Pope, and there were saints on both sides of the anti-Pope as well,
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who was the Pope. So, you know, Catholic history is full of, I think, more instances of confusion
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like this than we necessarily want to allow for. I think there were a lot of times where it was
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where you can look at Liberius and Athanasius. Did he or didn't he? Excommunicate Liberius.
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And they're going to go round and round. You're going to see it in the comments section right
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here on your show about Liberius, because these things are really not settled. And so I think
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what we have to consider is, again, where is everybody at on this? And what can we do to
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stay together? Like, hang it, hold it together, hold it together, you know? So, for example,
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you mentioned two retired bishops. Even if Bishop Schneider or Bishop Strickland thought
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in their heart of hearts, which they don't, as far as I know, but let's say they thought
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that Francis isn't the Pope. He's lost the Pope through heresy or whatever. We would have to ask
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ourselves a question. If they make that pronouncement too soon, they take themselves
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and their influence out. So now we say, okay, well, you got to say the right thing. You got
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to speak the truth no matter what, right? Well, maybe. Sir Edmund Campion didn't think so.
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St. Thomas More didn't think so. They kept it to themselves because they know they have
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to stay in the fight for as long as they can. Father Michael Pro with the Cristeros, he could
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have gone out and gotten himself killed on day one. I denounced Caius, you know, and died.
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No. He dresses in disguise. He goes out even as a ladies' man, like kind of go hit the town
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as a priest so he can administer to his flock so he doesn't die on the first hill that comes
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along. And so I think it's really important to think about the advantage. Like, what is
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the best chance we have to undermine what's happening in the Vatican right now? Is it for
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each of us just to go rogue? And we have our 15 minutes of fame, and we said it like it
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is, and pretty soon we're talking to our mom and her friends, and that's it. Because
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everybody else is like, yeah, I don't know, you know. So I think if there's a chance that
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Francis, you know, is going to continue to go down this road, it's going to become very
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untenable, the situation. We're going to find out after the Synod or during the Synod.
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What we want right now is for rightful authority to exercise the maximum influence to stop this
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Pope or to stop what's happening in the Vatican, put it that way. And if we begin going off half-cocked
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and too soon, well, the Cardinal Mullers of the world, the Bishop Schneiders, the Bishop
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Strickland are going to pull back. What do we got there? We've got a division in the most
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organized opposition Francis has ever faced. So there is a strategic concern here to say,
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okay, well, I don't have anything to leave. I could say it right now. Francis isn't the
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Pope. And then I get to keep doing my work. Fine. If Bishop Schneider does that, he's done.
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If Cardinal Muller does that, he's not even Cardinal Muller anymore. He's Archbishop Muller,
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because Francis made him a Cardinal. You see what happens, how it unravels. So you have to ask the
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question, is it cowardice that prevents them? Or is it a certain desire, like a Father Pro,
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like Edmund Campion, like a Klaus von Stauffenberg going after Hitler, keep your powder dry until you
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can maximize your influence to stop a terrible situation from getting any worse. And there's
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where I would encourage your viewers to pray about this. It may not be that the best thing you can do
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is declare Francis isn't the Pope. That may be John Henry exactly what he wants, because then he
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can say to the world, well, look at these crazy traditionals. I'm the one in white. I live in the
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Casa Santa Marta. I'm the Pope. He can look at the entire world and say, is there a Pope? And the
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whole world says, yes, there is a Pope. Who is the Pope? You are, Francis. You see, he has that. That's
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his strongest card to play. He looks at us. We say, he's not the Pope. He says, who cares? So what
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have we done? We've minimized our ability just to put pressure on the Vatican, because we're all
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talking about the next conclave now, I think. I think that's the best hope. I know what you're
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thinking. That's going to be a disaster, and I think it probably will be. But the Holy Ghost has
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intervened in the past, and he may again. And I think we need to help the cardinals and the bishops
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who are applying the pressure as best as we possibly can, because as you just said, you're a smart guy,
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and you do this for a living, you don't even know for sure. So if we don't know for sure,
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stick with the thing, stick with the faith, stick with what unites us, and support these guys,
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these priests and prelates who are putting pressure on the Vatican right now. Cardinal
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Muller is at the top of the list as far as I'm concerned, and Cardinal Burke. And let's see where
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this goes. But going off half-cocked may not be the right thing to do. It may not be God's will at all.
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With that, with regard to Pope Francis, you said at the outset that he's the worst pope in history. I
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don't even think that's contestable anymore. I also don't think it's contestable that he's guilty of
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heresy. Four formal ones in documents, but then every time, not every time, but you know what I mean,
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so often when he opens his mouth, particularly when he's in a plane, just flouting church teaching.
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Now, funny, he does say stuff that is in accord with church teaching. This last week, he defended
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life in terms of going down the euthanasia road. But he does this. But I've seen him do this so many
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times, go down one way, and then go the other way hard. And so much so that I cringe. Every time he
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says something pro-life, I'm like, uh-oh, what's coming? I remember what his strongest statement on
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life was, uh, abortion is not only wrong, it's a crime, but contraception is a lesser evil. And I
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was like, hokey. And the pro-life world concentrated on the pro-life comment and didn't look at what
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he was saying about contraception, basically overturning the teaching. I'd like to hear you
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on that first. And I have another question to follow up for you that's going to be very
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interesting about the false prophet. But tell us what you've seen about this communication
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from Francis of going one way, seeing something good, and then turning around.
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It's the, it's the, he's the consummate modernist. Only I would say he's not that smart. For a
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Jesuit, I don't think he's that smart, because we're all seeing through him. People have been
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seeing through Francis from the beginning. When he has one and a half languages, I don't
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think he's the cosmopolitan modernist that people are ascribing or thinking, well, he's a
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Jesuit, he must be. But I don't think he's that brilliant, because he keeps making these
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mistakes. His position on abortion, okay, it's like hiring a hitman. Okay, that sounds
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terrible. And we're all, you know, I mean, that sounds great. We're all, you know, going
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to jump on that. But what about the mortal sin of abortion? What about everlasting damnation?
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You know, what about the fact that a baby just died without baptism? And the doctor and the
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mother now murdered the baby? No, no talk about that at all, because it's very politically
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incorrect. So like our own country in the US, half the country is more or less pro-life, so
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they say. Saying comments like that from the Pope, it's kind of like,
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duh, he's the Pope. Yeah, I guess he's not in favor of abortion. Good for him. But I
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mean, oh my gosh, is the bar that low? So I would say, to answer your question, I think
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the other day I confronted a good friend of mine. I said, okay, you think Francis has
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lost his office through heresy? What would be his number one heresy, in your opinion? What
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is the number one heresy? And he went, well, probably Pachamama. And I said, and what
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dogma did he deny through the Pachamama scandal? And he couldn't come up with it. He's a good
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guy. He's a smart guy. And this is what we have to do with almost everything he says.
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What dogma did he deny when he said, gee, when Our Lady was at the foot of the cross,
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she must have been thinking, you know, you lied to me. That's a ridiculous thing to say.
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But that's not heresy. So, and I'm not defending him in the least. I'm saying we need to hone
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our polemic so that we really understand. You remember the famous one, John Paul kissed
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the Koran. Heresy, he's not the Pope. We don't know what he meant by that. We don't know if
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he even knew it was the Koran. We don't know if he was just doing something he thought dignitaries
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and heads of state are supposed to do, venerate something. We don't know anything about that,
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right? So I think that's the big problem with Francis is he knows we don't. So he plays both
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sides of things. He says one thing and he'll say it again. It's like he's right from the beginning.
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He'll say these things about the devil, how bad the devil is, because he has a sort
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of South American attitude about that sort of thing. They have festivals and pageants
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in the streets where they have devils, you know, dressed up and then they have angels
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and they go through the streets and it's a beautiful thing to see actually. But he knows
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that's going to play. But is that the, is that the Holy Father really going up against
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evil or is that him sort of tossing a bone to the little children and the older people
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who still think that, you know, hell and the devil is a relevant thing? I don't know. And
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that's just the point. We don't know. So I think when it comes to this, on all of these
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issues, you have to, and if you don't know for sure, go to a good theologian and say,
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okay, was that heresy? Did he just deny a dogma of the faith? And then it gives you
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a starting point. But just looking at all the scandals and saying, I know those are
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all heresies. If you say that, I think then you run the risk of minimizing again, reducing
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your ability to have a serious influence with people right now who are very confused
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because he kind of went off half cocked on something. When Francis said to the kids in
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Argentina, wherever you want, no, he wasn't Argentina, one of the world youth days, go out
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and make a mess. All right. That's ridiculous, but it's not heresy.
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Amoris de Tizia was heresy in his first allowance for divorce, remarried communion. And even
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in there, when it was confusing and people said, well, and we had those theologians make
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the interpretation. They had to do mental gymnastics to interpret it properly. Then Francis came
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out in the Acta Postola e Quesedas to clarify, no, he meant the heretical interpretation.
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So it's clear in certain cases. It's also clear in Gaudete de Exultate, where he reverses
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the order of the importance vis-à-vis immigration and abortion, which is the teaching of the church
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and reiterated by the U.S. bishops about the primacy of abortion. So there are actual cases
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that have been delineated by theologians. You've got it on your site. It's all over Life's
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site. So we have actual cases. The death penalty is another one with the catechism.
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I think we'd have to, if you don't mind me interrupting before I forget, I think one of
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the big problems that we have there is proving pertinacity. So now that's what Cardinal Burke
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and the Dubia Cardinals were trying to do. They were trying to say, Holiness, what do you mean
00:21:42.960
by this? In the Morse de Tizia, what are you saying here? Of course, he never answered that.
00:21:46.440
So now it's a question of, he has to deny a dogma of the faith. He has to be informed.
00:21:52.780
The main thing that we have to understand as far as declaring a pope has lost his office
00:21:57.200
through heresy is there's a canonical process. He has the right to a defense, just like we
00:22:02.560
would in regular jurisprudence, in regular court of law. You can disagree with him all
00:22:07.420
day long. You can say, no, I know what he's really doing, but still, at the end of the day,
00:22:10.240
he has a right. So he has to be informed that he's a heretic, that what he said is heretical.
00:22:14.320
And then he has to remain pertinaciously, basically digging in. I don't care, I'm going to continue
00:22:21.180
to be a heretic no matter what. Because otherwise what you have is you have like the famous case
00:22:25.620
of Pope John the 22nd on the particular versus general judgment. So the question is, we all
00:22:31.980
agree that Pope John the 22nd accepted or publicly taught a heretical proposition or position and
00:22:40.080
that he held to it and that it was official. Did he lose his office during the time from when he
00:22:45.960
first made this heretical proclamation to the time that he recanted, which he did towards the end of
00:22:50.780
his life, he recanted because traditionalists applied pressure and said, this is heresy.
00:22:55.140
And I've asked lots of theologians about, did he lose his office? Because that's key. If John the
00:22:59.140
22nd lost his office, it settles it for us. But did he? Not one person says, not one theologian I've
00:23:05.160
talked to maintains that he lost his office due to heresy. Pope Pius X talks about the modernists,
00:23:11.600
which modernism he calls the synthesis of all heresies. That's pretty serious. Did he say anything
00:23:17.760
about them being outside the church or losing their office? No. He says they're at the heart and bosom of
00:23:23.140
the church. And that's the problem. So that's where it gets really ticklish. We can all, I'm just a,
00:23:28.160
I'm not a theologian. I'm just a guy. But in talking to theologians, like, wow, this is so
00:23:32.220
complicated. And it's, and the church never envisioned, I don't think, a Francis. And that's a big problem
00:23:38.380
too. They never saw. So everything we know about people infallibility and indefectibility comes from
00:23:43.840
this idea that you will never disagree with a Pope. A Pope is always going to be strengthening
00:23:49.260
doctrine, not undermining it. Well, we have one now who fits the bill that, of what, what Cardinal
00:23:54.520
Saint, uh, Saint Robert Ellermann mentioned. He's trying to destroy the church. So you have to
00:23:59.340
resist him. But that doesn't settle it because for every, for every Bellarmine quote I can give,
00:24:03.780
I know our state of, state of the consciousness can come back with five more. And that's why it gets
00:24:08.080
really murky. It's very difficult to determine. Yeah.