The John-Henry Westen Show - Explaining Pope Francis & COVID-19 lockdowns ｜ Chorbishop Anthony Spinosa

00:00:00.000 When the church cannot be the strong leader, you can't expect people just to automatically

00:00:06.260 follow after the church falters. If the church falters, everyone falters with her.

00:00:19.460 Hey, my friends. You know, the successors of the apostles today rarely speak. Sometimes we've heard

00:00:28.660 that prophecy that talks about the one who should speak was silent. Well, here at the Catholic 0.99

00:00:35.600 Identity Conference, he's actually a bishop, actually one of the successors of the apostles,

00:00:40.440 and this is core bishop Anthony Spinoza, who's with us in this episode of the John Henry Weston

00:00:45.700 Show, and he's at the conference here, and a core bishop is one who, I guess, our equivalent in the

00:00:53.000 Roman right would be an auxiliary bishop, but he is a core bishop for the Maronite right,

00:01:00.440 and I want you to stay tuned to this episode to hear Bishop Anthony Spinoza.

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00:01:52.480 Bishops Spinoza, welcome to the program.

00:01:54.500 Thank you.

00:01:55.080 Good to be with you.

00:01:55.740 Thank you. Thank you very much.

00:01:57.480 So, let's begin, as we always do, with the sign of the cross. If you wouldn't mind leading us,

00:02:01.780 please.

00:02:02.420 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

00:02:06.560 Amen.

00:02:07.240 So, here you are at the Catholic Identity Conference. For a lot of people, that's controversial.

00:02:12.280 You've also accepted my offer to come on the program, which is awesome. But in this day and

00:02:18.620 age, it's kind of funny because, you know, 10 years ago, LifeSite was regarded as very much

00:02:25.520 one with the Vatican. We were well-known. We were asked in 2013 to go and do an official event with

00:02:32.140 the Vatican, by the Vatican. Things have changed in the last 10 years. The Catholic Identity Conference

00:02:38.040 is similarly regarded by some as somehow strange, and a lot would avoid it. You haven't chosen to do

00:02:46.600 so. Why is that? And what about your conference? Because many of them, while still adhering to

00:02:53.740 believing in the traditional faith, are nevertheless anxious about coming to something like this.

00:03:00.820 Well, I think many of them just do not understand what the conference is about. And the title

00:03:08.880 is fine, Catholic Identity. No one would question that. But it's always easy to get a reputation

00:03:15.980 that's not flattering. And I think that laity and clergy alike, hierarchy, just don't know what

00:03:23.800 it's about. And they may think that it is a very far right-wing organization and approach to things.

00:03:31.860 And whether far right-wing or far left-wing is not a good thing in either situation. So I think many

00:03:39.420 times it's a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what the conference is about.

00:03:45.580 And what do you appreciate about the conference and about tradition? Because, you know, this conference

00:03:51.300 is largely about the traditional faith, upholding the faith, as Michael Matt always says, uniting the

00:03:56.860 clans. Well, uniting the clans is important because it doesn't refer just to the Latin rite.

00:04:03.520 It includes the Eastern churches as well. And the challenges that the Latin rite faces is very much

00:04:12.060 the same as the Eastern churches. How do we bring people to the church? How do we bring them to God? 0.86

00:04:17.700 How do we help them get into the kingdom of heaven? And so, I mean, that's a big challenge in itself. And

00:04:27.820 for me, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, is it really energizes me because I see people who are very

00:04:40.840 appreciative of the faith that they have. And there's confusion amongst them. It's not always

00:04:48.860 their fault. And they're looking for answers. They're looking for stability. They want to be good

00:04:56.120 Catholic people. And sometimes they feel marginalized. And I come across this all the time. And it's not

00:05:05.540 just the laity, but the clergy as well. And there are days when I just say, I really don't want to do

00:05:12.100 this. And moments when you just don't have the energy or the interest to continue sometimes in

00:05:19.960 ministry. Then you come to a conference like this, and the laity, God bless them, are the ones who

00:05:27.380 really energize us. I mean, they're complimentary, they're appreciative. And that's what helps me,

00:05:34.780 especially, go back to the shrine, to the basilic, and say, I'm going to do this.

00:05:42.940 It's really beautiful to have the success of the apostles be there for you when you're struggling

00:05:50.040 in a time of great confusion is very reassuring for the people. I know why they're so grateful for

00:05:56.480 your presence here. It's a beautiful thing. Those who have embraced tradition are kind of a

00:06:04.720 persecuted lot in our church today, which is sad to say. But it's why there's such gratitude.

00:06:13.260 Walking through the hall, it's hard to get through them with you because you're stopped every five

00:06:17.480 seconds by people who want and sincerely want to both thank you for being here, but also they want

00:06:23.400 your blessing. It's become sad to say it's almost like a rare commodity now to have one of the

00:06:30.560 successors, the apostles here. I was very grateful for your talk and for your presence here. It's a

00:06:39.960 very powerful thing. The church is in confusion, a lot of confusion, and a lot of that surrounds right

00:06:48.520 now, Pope Francis. It's been a decade or slightly longer now. And it is hard for the faithful who

00:06:59.540 try to embrace tradition, all the traditional beliefs, to live in this time.

00:07:06.580 Well, the Holy Father, in many ways, is no different than any other leader.

00:07:11.020 And when we look to a leader, we look for clarity, and we look for strength, and we look for direction,

00:07:19.280 and we look for something that is fatherly. We want our leaders to act as a parent. And

00:07:28.800 I think sometimes we don't see this side of Pope Francis. We were accustomed for so many years with

00:07:37.240 John Paul II. Whether you agreed with him or not, he was loved. People embraced him. And Pope Benedict XVI

00:07:49.300 was a different personality. He was quiet. He was academic. He was scholarly. But yet, having been

00:08:00.300 close to him as we are, there was a gentleness about him. And sometimes I think people don't quite see

00:08:09.440 that with Pope Francis. And I don't mean to criticize, because whenever I have a criticism of

00:08:16.600 something against the Holy Father, I feel very guilty about it. Because we were raised to love the

00:08:21.600 Holy Father. And so to have these kind of feelings sometimes makes us feel badly. But sometimes we

00:08:30.060 hear him say things that are confusing and they're contradictory. And honestly, sometimes they

00:08:37.360 don't sound very fatherly. And that's what bothers me. The comment that I made during my talk about

00:08:46.520 the being called indiretissimo. I mean, parents don't do that to their children. And I'm sure he didn't mean it

00:08:58.240 in that way. But many people were hurt by that. And this is what bothers people. There's ambiguity.

00:09:08.540 There's lack of clarity. There's not so much teaching now as much as be involved with other things,

00:09:18.240 be concerned with other things, which are valid points. Whether it's climate change or social issues

00:09:25.240 issues or whatever it is, we have to be involved in all of that. But we also need to know the teachings

00:09:32.880 of the church. I always tell people, you cannot learn geometry and algebra and trigonometry until

00:09:41.480 you learn basic arithmetic. And I think this is what causes the confusion now. We hear of how we should

00:09:50.460 know all these other things when we don't really know the basics. That causes, I think, a great deal

00:09:56.700 of confusion.

00:09:58.100 One of the most confusing figures in the church in America today is Father James Martin. He's very

00:10:07.700 well known, but he seems to push against the very teaching that, you know, especially John Paul II tried

00:10:15.860 to emphasize the need for. And in this day and age where that particular question has become the most

00:10:23.460 confusing thing seemingly on earth. And the church herself in Germany, I'm sure you must have seen or

00:10:31.700 heard about or know about the vote there, the vote of the bishops on the issue of blessing of same-sex

00:10:37.620 marriage was 38 in favor, eight opposed, 11 abstentions. This is stunning for Catholics who...

00:10:48.100 We're involved in LifeSite a lot with that question because it's one of the things, our main topics of

00:10:54.580 coverage, life, faith, family, and freedom. And so those issues for us have been sort of core issues

00:11:00.180 going all the way back to our founding. This is a time of grave scandal and confusion. It's very often

00:11:09.300 those people who were converts from the LGBT lifestyle that are most hurt by what's going on in the church

00:11:17.860 today. Well, I think we just have to go back into biblical history a bit. Obviously, there's always 0.86

00:11:28.980 been a standard from the very, very beginning. From Genesis, God created the human race. He created them

00:11:39.140 equal, but he created the male and female. So it's set from the very beginning. And I don't see how we can

00:11:49.700 change any of that. As sympathetic or empathetic as anyone would like to be, you cannot change what goes

00:11:58.260 back to the very beginning of creation. And the church and society has had to deal with these problems

00:12:08.580 forever and ever. Now it's out in the open more. But it doesn't mean that you reject people. And I think

00:12:17.700 Pope Benedict, when he was still cardinal, really kind of defined that well. That no one is being

00:12:25.380 rejected. But here are the rules. And the rules are the same for everyone. And it's a big challenge,

00:12:35.620 a great challenge. How do you minister? How do you help? But you have to help authentically.

00:12:42.260 When you compromise the faith of the church, the beliefs of the church, or the morals of the church,

00:12:49.380 or whatever it might be, you are not helping the individual. Actually, you're doing them great harm.

00:12:57.300 It doesn't mean the problem will go away. We just have to work a little bit harder as to how are we

00:13:04.740 going to bring individuals like this closer to God. It is an enormous challenge. And what is even more

00:13:13.940 upsetting is that now in all of society, we see and hear of such absurdities, things that a few years ago you

00:13:25.140 wouldn't even think of. So it's now very blatant, very in your face. Don't even tell me what to do or how to be.

00:13:35.380 But the church has the obligation to do that. Because the church has to speak the truth. And it has

00:13:44.500 to be done with kindness and charity and all, you know, Christian love, obviously. But you cannot

00:13:51.940 compromise the truth. And this is where we're tripping up. We're trying to help in any way possible.

00:13:59.220 But we're also compromising the truth.

00:14:04.340 One of the letters that I think it was John Paul II, but it was written by Benedict or the office of the CDF,

00:14:14.820 was the letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on homosexual portions from 1986.

00:14:20.420 In that document, the then later Holy Father, and John Paul signed off on it anyway, talked about how

00:14:28.420 any authentic pastoral programs, about the pastoral care of homosexual persons, we talked about how any

00:14:34.500 pastoral program for homosexual persons has to spell out the, basically, the sin of homosexuality acts, 0.96

00:14:45.780 that the acts are incompatible with truth or that they're sinful. And he said, not only, he said,

00:14:54.420 silence about it. So in addition to, not only can you not go against it, but he said, even silence about it,

00:15:03.300 it keeps, it harms, basically saying it harms people, but it keeps from them the care that they deserve.

00:15:10.340 Silence about it is something that has gone on for a long time. I don't know when the last time most people

00:15:20.500 in America, let alone Europe, would have heard a homily ever even touching on the, you know,

00:15:27.860 man-woman marriage or anything like that. 0.89

00:15:30.420 Well, the problem we have now is that you can be charged with hate speech. And a few years ago,

00:15:40.500 that didn't really exist. But at least the term didn't. So I think many times priests are very careful

00:15:50.900 about doing that in a public forum, like in a homily or something like that at Mass. Because right away,

00:15:58.820 inevitably, someone is going to call you some kind of a bigot or whatever they're going to call you,

00:16:05.380 and accuse you of hate speech. And as we heard, you know, this weekend with Mark Hauck and all of that,

00:16:14.660 how something relatively insignificant can be a huge problem. And I think many times

00:16:22.660 priests are afraid of that. So they will address it privately and quietly. To do it

00:16:29.620 in a public manner, you really have to know what you're doing. And most priests are kind of afraid

00:16:37.060 to do that. And they feel that they don't have really the ability to address it properly.

00:16:43.700 It is a very, very difficult issue indeed. What do you make of St. Paul's charge to Timothy?

00:16:55.940 It was actually in the Gospel reading, I believe this weekend, about speaking the truth in season

00:17:02.180 and out of season. Where do you think we are in the world on that? Also in the Gospels, not this week,

00:17:09.460 but Christ mentions, when I return, will I find faith? In a lot of the talks we heard here,

00:17:18.820 we heard stunning accounts, like just from Father Christopher, who is here from England,

00:17:25.380 Father Christopher Roby, I think his last name is, just talking about the stunning loss of faith,

00:17:30.180 just unreal, the drop-off rate. I'd love to hear your take on that, particularly about St. Paul's

00:17:36.660 Church of St. Timothy. Well, I'm guilty, like many others, that many times when I give a Sunday sermon,

00:17:48.340 I try to be a little non-controversial, you know, and I always try to use the Gospel passage.

00:17:56.820 But if I'm trying to drive home a point, as St. Paul was doing, I watch my words a little bit.

00:18:04.660 Now, the people who come to the shrine, to the basilica, are all very traditionally minded,

00:18:12.260 so most of them wouldn't have a problem with it. But you still have to be a little bit careful.

00:18:19.620 I don't consider myself a great orator, so some can do it and do it well. I don't seem to have that

00:18:27.940 confidence to do it. But this is all of society right now. Whether it's the church or civil society,

00:18:40.260 people are just not speaking the way they should. There is such confusion of words and manipulation

00:18:49.540 of meanings. And this happens. And you cannot do that in Scripture. Once you start manipulating words,

00:18:58.900 you've got a problem. And someone said to me, oh, you're using this translation in your lectionary?

00:19:07.780 I said, well, yeah. And they said, well, this is an old translation. I says, it's only a few years old.

00:19:16.020 Yeah, but that's old. And these words have to change. We're not changing words, because as soon as you do

00:19:22.660 that, you change meanings. And I think this is part of the problem, in that there is such a fluidity of

00:19:33.060 meaning now that you can take one word and it could mean something totally different to another person.

00:19:40.740 We've had this discussion in our marinade circles regarding the liturgy. A couple of words were

00:19:48.580 changed here and there. And some of us thought that one word that had been changed completely changed the

00:19:56.820 meaning. And some agreed and some did not agree. And I think that's what we have today.

00:20:02.500 You know, when you say yes, mean yes. When you say no, mean no. And everything else is from the evil one.

00:20:10.980 And this is all over the place now. We see it in politics. We see it in schools. We see it in churches.

00:20:18.420 We do not know how to speak precisely and according to proper meaning.

00:20:24.580 One of the biggest things today that is really going on, not only among the laity,

00:20:34.500 but among the clergy, even the good clergy, is division. It's a horrific thing to see,

00:20:43.220 as was predicted by Our Lady of Akita, what can only seem to me anyway, like the fulfillment of that

00:20:50.020 prophecy. You know, bishops against bishops, cardinals against cardinals.

00:20:56.500 Division is a horrible thing. It's from the devil. And we saw it more so probably with COVID than just

00:21:02.820 about anything ever on earth. I'd just like to know from your own either community or how things went

00:21:13.300 in the Maronite Rite with regard to COVID, because it just divided families, even the best of Catholics.

00:21:21.780 Well, we have not recovered from that. And I'm not sure if we will in the near future. When all of this

00:21:30.020 began, there was hesitation on the part of our bishop to close churches. But then suddenly,

00:21:38.180 everyone else was doing it. So they were told to close or to make changes as best they could and

00:21:46.260 that sort of thing. And I told my bishop very kindly, I said, I'm not closing the shrine.

00:21:54.020 I cannot close the shrine. I said, I will limit the number of liturgies. And I will certainly limit

00:22:02.180 the number of people. And the Basilica Church is large enough so that we can space people.

00:22:09.460 And we will do all the protocols that they ask, but I will not close the church. And

00:22:19.060 he said, okay. And so I really only had one liturgy on Sunday. The weekday liturgies, I had to reserve

00:22:30.260 that just for our nuns next door, because they had an adult daycare center and assisted living. And we 0.97

00:22:38.820 couldn't put those elderly in any kind of jeopardy. It was very delicate. But when Holy Week came about,

00:22:47.460 we had a little controversy, because I just said, we are having Holy Week, like every other week,

00:22:55.700 and every other year, rather. And we did. And there were less people. And those who were comfortable

00:23:01.540 came, and those who were not, did not come. It was very different. It really was. And

00:23:10.980 it just placed a pall over the joy of Easter. But we did the best that we could. But I said, no,

00:23:21.460 we just have to do it. Now, I know some of our priests have just come out and told our bishop,

00:23:27.140 if this comes up again, do not even consider closing the churches. I know in our East Coast

00:23:35.300 diocese, one pastor was called by one of the local, I don't know if it was an attorney general,

00:23:42.500 or somebody in the area, some civil official, who told him, you must close your church.

00:23:49.140 The pastor says, oh, no, I don't. Well, you must, or we're going to do whatever we're going to do.

00:23:56.740 And I give the bishop of the other diocese credit, who called this man and says, you have no right,

00:24:02.980 according to law, to close our church. We will do what we have to do, but you cannot close our church.

00:24:10.340 And this is what was disconcerting, because I think that many times,

00:24:14.820 the churches could have remained open, just organize it a little differently. There was no

00:24:23.060 need to lock the doors. And I think that hurt people terribly, terribly. And as I said,

00:24:32.420 we haven't recovered from that. We have masses of people who are just not going to come back now.

00:24:36.900 And not because they're angry, or upset, or anything like that. They lost interest.

00:24:44.980 When the church cannot be the strong leader, you can't expect people just to automatically

00:24:52.340 follow after the church falters. If the church falters, everyone falters with her.

00:24:57.940 What is your hope for the church? The Maronite rite's very interesting, because they're, as far as I

00:25:09.300 understand it, the only Eastern rite that never separated from Rome. So there's that sort of

00:25:15.540 division East and West. But there's hope still. I mean, a lot of people think there's still hope for

00:25:24.100 the coming back of the Orthodox to join more fully to the church and everything else. I would hope the

00:25:30.900 Maronites have a role to play in that, because of your historical distinction as the Eastern that never 0.64

00:25:35.700 left. Your thoughts on that, your hope for the future, not only in the Maronite rite, but in the

00:25:42.260 church more generally. Well, people seem to think that this whole idea of ecumenism is going to work.

00:25:51.940 That if we're just kind of nice and think about what we have similar rather than what divides us,

00:26:00.020 it's going to work. It's not going to work. It is not going to work. And I know what a lot of

00:26:06.340 Orthodox people and priests and clergy and all of that, and I'm very good friends with them. But I can

00:26:12.420 honestly say they are not the least bit interested in union with Rome. That is a dream that the Western

00:26:20.820 church has. It is not going to happen. And it's not going to happen now because we are going through

00:26:28.820 such a trial. They are not going to come into a church that is in disruption and confusion and

00:26:38.100 conflict. They have enough to deal with. They're not going to take on the problems of the Catholic 1.00

00:26:45.060 church. So nothing's going to happen, at least for a very, very, very long time to come.

00:26:57.700 Any final thoughts for us? Where you, by being here, a great blessing to us, that I have to say.

00:27:07.620 But any final thoughts for us? Well, as I said, this is a great help for me. It uplips me spiritually

00:27:15.380 and emotionally. And I just think a conference like this benefits everyone. And for those clergy

00:27:25.380 who think that this is just a group of crazy people, I would say, why don't you just kind of

00:27:31.620 come and experience? See the type of people that are here. You may not be part of that mentality.

00:27:38.900 You may not want that sort of thing. But you could never deny the sincerity of the people who

00:27:45.620 pursue this type of conference. And I think if more of the clergy were open to that,

00:27:53.940 their attitudes would change. But unfortunately, you know, sometimes we have blinders on.

00:27:59.780 Indeed, indeed. Can I ask you, if you wouldn't mind, give a blessing to all of our viewers?

00:28:06.820 Our help is in the name of the Lord, who made heaven and earth. O Lord, hear our prayers.

00:28:13.460 May the blessing of Almighty God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost descend upon us now,

00:28:19.780 always, and forever. Amen.

00:28:22.580 Thank you so very much. Thank you. God bless you. Very good. You too.

00:28:29.540 And God bless all of you. And we'll see you next time.

The John-Henry Westen Show - October 24, 2023

Explaining Pope Francis & COVID-19 lockdowns ｜ Chorbishop Anthony Spinosa

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