Explaining Pope Francis & COVID-19 lockdowns ｜ Chorbishop Anthony Spinosa
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Summary
In this episode of the John Henry Weston Show, Bishop Anthony Spinoza joins us from the Catholic Identity Conference to talk about what it means to be a Catholic in the 21st century. He also talks about the challenges facing Catholics in the modern world, and why it's important to have a Catholic identity.
Transcript
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When the church cannot be the strong leader, you can't expect people just to automatically
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follow after the church falters. If the church falters, everyone falters with her.
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Hey, my friends. You know, the successors of the apostles today rarely speak. Sometimes we've heard
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that prophecy that talks about the one who should speak was silent. Well, here at the Catholic
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Identity Conference, he's actually a bishop, actually one of the successors of the apostles,
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and this is core bishop Anthony Spinoza, who's with us in this episode of the John Henry Weston
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Show, and he's at the conference here, and a core bishop is one who, I guess, our equivalent in the
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Roman right would be an auxiliary bishop, but he is a core bishop for the Maronite right,
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and I want you to stay tuned to this episode to hear Bishop Anthony Spinoza.
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So, let's begin, as we always do, with the sign of the cross. If you wouldn't mind leading us,
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In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
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So, here you are at the Catholic Identity Conference. For a lot of people, that's controversial.
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You've also accepted my offer to come on the program, which is awesome. But in this day and
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age, it's kind of funny because, you know, 10 years ago, LifeSite was regarded as very much
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one with the Vatican. We were well-known. We were asked in 2013 to go and do an official event with
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the Vatican, by the Vatican. Things have changed in the last 10 years. The Catholic Identity Conference
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is similarly regarded by some as somehow strange, and a lot would avoid it. You haven't chosen to do
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so. Why is that? And what about your conference? Because many of them, while still adhering to
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believing in the traditional faith, are nevertheless anxious about coming to something like this.
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Well, I think many of them just do not understand what the conference is about. And the title
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is fine, Catholic Identity. No one would question that. But it's always easy to get a reputation
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that's not flattering. And I think that laity and clergy alike, hierarchy, just don't know what
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it's about. And they may think that it is a very far right-wing organization and approach to things.
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And whether far right-wing or far left-wing is not a good thing in either situation. So I think many
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times it's a lack of knowledge and understanding as to what the conference is about.
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And what do you appreciate about the conference and about tradition? Because, you know, this conference
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is largely about the traditional faith, upholding the faith, as Michael Matt always says, uniting the
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clans. Well, uniting the clans is important because it doesn't refer just to the Latin rite.
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It includes the Eastern churches as well. And the challenges that the Latin rite faces is very much
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the same as the Eastern churches. How do we bring people to the church? How do we bring them to God?
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How do we help them get into the kingdom of heaven? And so, I mean, that's a big challenge in itself. And
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for me, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, is it really energizes me because I see people who are very
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appreciative of the faith that they have. And there's confusion amongst them. It's not always
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their fault. And they're looking for answers. They're looking for stability. They want to be good
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Catholic people. And sometimes they feel marginalized. And I come across this all the time. And it's not
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just the laity, but the clergy as well. And there are days when I just say, I really don't want to do
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this. And moments when you just don't have the energy or the interest to continue sometimes in
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ministry. Then you come to a conference like this, and the laity, God bless them, are the ones who
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really energize us. I mean, they're complimentary, they're appreciative. And that's what helps me,
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especially, go back to the shrine, to the basilic, and say, I'm going to do this.
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It's really beautiful to have the success of the apostles be there for you when you're struggling
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in a time of great confusion is very reassuring for the people. I know why they're so grateful for
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your presence here. It's a beautiful thing. Those who have embraced tradition are kind of a
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persecuted lot in our church today, which is sad to say. But it's why there's such gratitude.
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Walking through the hall, it's hard to get through them with you because you're stopped every five
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seconds by people who want and sincerely want to both thank you for being here, but also they want
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your blessing. It's become sad to say it's almost like a rare commodity now to have one of the
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successors, the apostles here. I was very grateful for your talk and for your presence here. It's a
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very powerful thing. The church is in confusion, a lot of confusion, and a lot of that surrounds right
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now, Pope Francis. It's been a decade or slightly longer now. And it is hard for the faithful who
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try to embrace tradition, all the traditional beliefs, to live in this time.
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Well, the Holy Father, in many ways, is no different than any other leader.
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And when we look to a leader, we look for clarity, and we look for strength, and we look for direction,
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and we look for something that is fatherly. We want our leaders to act as a parent. And
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I think sometimes we don't see this side of Pope Francis. We were accustomed for so many years with
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John Paul II. Whether you agreed with him or not, he was loved. People embraced him. And Pope Benedict XVI
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was a different personality. He was quiet. He was academic. He was scholarly. But yet, having been
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close to him as we are, there was a gentleness about him. And sometimes I think people don't quite see
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that with Pope Francis. And I don't mean to criticize, because whenever I have a criticism of
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something against the Holy Father, I feel very guilty about it. Because we were raised to love the
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Holy Father. And so to have these kind of feelings sometimes makes us feel badly. But sometimes we
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hear him say things that are confusing and they're contradictory. And honestly, sometimes they
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don't sound very fatherly. And that's what bothers me. The comment that I made during my talk about
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the being called indiretissimo. I mean, parents don't do that to their children. And I'm sure he didn't mean it
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in that way. But many people were hurt by that. And this is what bothers people. There's ambiguity.
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There's lack of clarity. There's not so much teaching now as much as be involved with other things,
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be concerned with other things, which are valid points. Whether it's climate change or social issues
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issues or whatever it is, we have to be involved in all of that. But we also need to know the teachings
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of the church. I always tell people, you cannot learn geometry and algebra and trigonometry until
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you learn basic arithmetic. And I think this is what causes the confusion now. We hear of how we should
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know all these other things when we don't really know the basics. That causes, I think, a great deal
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One of the most confusing figures in the church in America today is Father James Martin. He's very
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well known, but he seems to push against the very teaching that, you know, especially John Paul II tried
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to emphasize the need for. And in this day and age where that particular question has become the most
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confusing thing seemingly on earth. And the church herself in Germany, I'm sure you must have seen or
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heard about or know about the vote there, the vote of the bishops on the issue of blessing of same-sex
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marriage was 38 in favor, eight opposed, 11 abstentions. This is stunning for Catholics who...
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We're involved in LifeSite a lot with that question because it's one of the things, our main topics of
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coverage, life, faith, family, and freedom. And so those issues for us have been sort of core issues
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going all the way back to our founding. This is a time of grave scandal and confusion. It's very often
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those people who were converts from the LGBT lifestyle that are most hurt by what's going on in the church
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today. Well, I think we just have to go back into biblical history a bit. Obviously, there's always
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been a standard from the very, very beginning. From Genesis, God created the human race. He created them
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equal, but he created the male and female. So it's set from the very beginning. And I don't see how we can
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change any of that. As sympathetic or empathetic as anyone would like to be, you cannot change what goes
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back to the very beginning of creation. And the church and society has had to deal with these problems
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forever and ever. Now it's out in the open more. But it doesn't mean that you reject people. And I think
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Pope Benedict, when he was still cardinal, really kind of defined that well. That no one is being
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rejected. But here are the rules. And the rules are the same for everyone. And it's a big challenge,
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a great challenge. How do you minister? How do you help? But you have to help authentically.
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When you compromise the faith of the church, the beliefs of the church, or the morals of the church,
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or whatever it might be, you are not helping the individual. Actually, you're doing them great harm.
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It doesn't mean the problem will go away. We just have to work a little bit harder as to how are we
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going to bring individuals like this closer to God. It is an enormous challenge. And what is even more
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upsetting is that now in all of society, we see and hear of such absurdities, things that a few years ago you
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wouldn't even think of. So it's now very blatant, very in your face. Don't even tell me what to do or how to be.
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But the church has the obligation to do that. Because the church has to speak the truth. And it has
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to be done with kindness and charity and all, you know, Christian love, obviously. But you cannot
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compromise the truth. And this is where we're tripping up. We're trying to help in any way possible.
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One of the letters that I think it was John Paul II, but it was written by Benedict or the office of the CDF,
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was the letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on homosexual portions from 1986.
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In that document, the then later Holy Father, and John Paul signed off on it anyway, talked about how
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any authentic pastoral programs, about the pastoral care of homosexual persons, we talked about how any
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pastoral program for homosexual persons has to spell out the, basically, the sin of homosexuality acts,
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that the acts are incompatible with truth or that they're sinful. And he said, not only, he said,
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silence about it. So in addition to, not only can you not go against it, but he said, even silence about it,
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it keeps, it harms, basically saying it harms people, but it keeps from them the care that they deserve.
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Silence about it is something that has gone on for a long time. I don't know when the last time most people
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in America, let alone Europe, would have heard a homily ever even touching on the, you know,
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Well, the problem we have now is that you can be charged with hate speech. And a few years ago,
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that didn't really exist. But at least the term didn't. So I think many times priests are very careful
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about doing that in a public forum, like in a homily or something like that at Mass. Because right away,
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inevitably, someone is going to call you some kind of a bigot or whatever they're going to call you,
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and accuse you of hate speech. And as we heard, you know, this weekend with Mark Hauck and all of that,
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how something relatively insignificant can be a huge problem. And I think many times
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priests are afraid of that. So they will address it privately and quietly. To do it
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in a public manner, you really have to know what you're doing. And most priests are kind of afraid
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to do that. And they feel that they don't have really the ability to address it properly.
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It is a very, very difficult issue indeed. What do you make of St. Paul's charge to Timothy?
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It was actually in the Gospel reading, I believe this weekend, about speaking the truth in season
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and out of season. Where do you think we are in the world on that? Also in the Gospels, not this week,
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but Christ mentions, when I return, will I find faith? In a lot of the talks we heard here,
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we heard stunning accounts, like just from Father Christopher, who is here from England,
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Father Christopher Roby, I think his last name is, just talking about the stunning loss of faith,
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just unreal, the drop-off rate. I'd love to hear your take on that, particularly about St. Paul's
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Church of St. Timothy. Well, I'm guilty, like many others, that many times when I give a Sunday sermon,
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I try to be a little non-controversial, you know, and I always try to use the Gospel passage.
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But if I'm trying to drive home a point, as St. Paul was doing, I watch my words a little bit.
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Now, the people who come to the shrine, to the basilica, are all very traditionally minded,
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so most of them wouldn't have a problem with it. But you still have to be a little bit careful.
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I don't consider myself a great orator, so some can do it and do it well. I don't seem to have that
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confidence to do it. But this is all of society right now. Whether it's the church or civil society,
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people are just not speaking the way they should. There is such confusion of words and manipulation
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of meanings. And this happens. And you cannot do that in Scripture. Once you start manipulating words,
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you've got a problem. And someone said to me, oh, you're using this translation in your lectionary?
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I said, well, yeah. And they said, well, this is an old translation. I says, it's only a few years old.
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Yeah, but that's old. And these words have to change. We're not changing words, because as soon as you do
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that, you change meanings. And I think this is part of the problem, in that there is such a fluidity of
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meaning now that you can take one word and it could mean something totally different to another person.
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We've had this discussion in our marinade circles regarding the liturgy. A couple of words were
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changed here and there. And some of us thought that one word that had been changed completely changed the
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meaning. And some agreed and some did not agree. And I think that's what we have today.
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You know, when you say yes, mean yes. When you say no, mean no. And everything else is from the evil one.
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And this is all over the place now. We see it in politics. We see it in schools. We see it in churches.
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We do not know how to speak precisely and according to proper meaning.
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One of the biggest things today that is really going on, not only among the laity,
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but among the clergy, even the good clergy, is division. It's a horrific thing to see,
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as was predicted by Our Lady of Akita, what can only seem to me anyway, like the fulfillment of that
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prophecy. You know, bishops against bishops, cardinals against cardinals.
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Division is a horrible thing. It's from the devil. And we saw it more so probably with COVID than just
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about anything ever on earth. I'd just like to know from your own either community or how things went
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in the Maronite Rite with regard to COVID, because it just divided families, even the best of Catholics.
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Well, we have not recovered from that. And I'm not sure if we will in the near future. When all of this
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began, there was hesitation on the part of our bishop to close churches. But then suddenly,
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everyone else was doing it. So they were told to close or to make changes as best they could and
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that sort of thing. And I told my bishop very kindly, I said, I'm not closing the shrine.
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I cannot close the shrine. I said, I will limit the number of liturgies. And I will certainly limit
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the number of people. And the Basilica Church is large enough so that we can space people.
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And we will do all the protocols that they ask, but I will not close the church. And
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he said, okay. And so I really only had one liturgy on Sunday. The weekday liturgies, I had to reserve
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that just for our nuns next door, because they had an adult daycare center and assisted living. And we
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couldn't put those elderly in any kind of jeopardy. It was very delicate. But when Holy Week came about,
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we had a little controversy, because I just said, we are having Holy Week, like every other week,
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and every other year, rather. And we did. And there were less people. And those who were comfortable
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came, and those who were not, did not come. It was very different. It really was. And
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it just placed a pall over the joy of Easter. But we did the best that we could. But I said, no,
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we just have to do it. Now, I know some of our priests have just come out and told our bishop,
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if this comes up again, do not even consider closing the churches. I know in our East Coast
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diocese, one pastor was called by one of the local, I don't know if it was an attorney general,
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or somebody in the area, some civil official, who told him, you must close your church.
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The pastor says, oh, no, I don't. Well, you must, or we're going to do whatever we're going to do.
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And I give the bishop of the other diocese credit, who called this man and says, you have no right,
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according to law, to close our church. We will do what we have to do, but you cannot close our church.
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And this is what was disconcerting, because I think that many times,
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the churches could have remained open, just organize it a little differently. There was no
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need to lock the doors. And I think that hurt people terribly, terribly. And as I said,
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we haven't recovered from that. We have masses of people who are just not going to come back now.
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And not because they're angry, or upset, or anything like that. They lost interest.
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When the church cannot be the strong leader, you can't expect people just to automatically
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follow after the church falters. If the church falters, everyone falters with her.
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What is your hope for the church? The Maronite rite's very interesting, because they're, as far as I
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understand it, the only Eastern rite that never separated from Rome. So there's that sort of
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division East and West. But there's hope still. I mean, a lot of people think there's still hope for
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the coming back of the Orthodox to join more fully to the church and everything else. I would hope the
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Maronites have a role to play in that, because of your historical distinction as the Eastern that never
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left. Your thoughts on that, your hope for the future, not only in the Maronite rite, but in the
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church more generally. Well, people seem to think that this whole idea of ecumenism is going to work.
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That if we're just kind of nice and think about what we have similar rather than what divides us,
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it's going to work. It's not going to work. It is not going to work. And I know what a lot of
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Orthodox people and priests and clergy and all of that, and I'm very good friends with them. But I can
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honestly say they are not the least bit interested in union with Rome. That is a dream that the Western
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church has. It is not going to happen. And it's not going to happen now because we are going through
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such a trial. They are not going to come into a church that is in disruption and confusion and
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conflict. They have enough to deal with. They're not going to take on the problems of the Catholic
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church. So nothing's going to happen, at least for a very, very, very long time to come.
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Any final thoughts for us? Where you, by being here, a great blessing to us, that I have to say.
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But any final thoughts for us? Well, as I said, this is a great help for me. It uplips me spiritually
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and emotionally. And I just think a conference like this benefits everyone. And for those clergy
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who think that this is just a group of crazy people, I would say, why don't you just kind of
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come and experience? See the type of people that are here. You may not be part of that mentality.
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You may not want that sort of thing. But you could never deny the sincerity of the people who
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pursue this type of conference. And I think if more of the clergy were open to that,
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their attitudes would change. But unfortunately, you know, sometimes we have blinders on.
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Indeed, indeed. Can I ask you, if you wouldn't mind, give a blessing to all of our viewers?
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Our help is in the name of the Lord, who made heaven and earth. O Lord, hear our prayers.
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May the blessing of Almighty God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost descend upon us now,
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Thank you so very much. Thank you. God bless you. Very good. You too.
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And God bless all of you. And we'll see you next time.