How Pope Leo XIV Can HEAL the Church
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Summary
In this episode of The John Henry Weston Show, host John Henry sits down with Anthony Abate, host of the popular YouTube show, Avoiding Babylon, to talk about the new pontificate of Pope John Paul III, and what it means to be a Catholic in the pew.
Transcript
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the war is over. And it's been very nice to once again feel like our father doesn't hate us.
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Hello, my friends. Welcome to the John Henry Weston Show. We've got with us a guest I've
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had on before, but a couple of years ago now, was at the Coalition of Canceled Priest Conference,
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I believe in 2023. I spoke to Anthony Abate about, well, his blog, his work, what he does.
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He runs a YouTube show that's real popular called Avoiding Babylon. If I recall correctly,
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at the conference, it was very interesting because he spoke of the new religion, replete
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with sacraments and everything else. And the cancel culture was excommunication. And it was a really
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neat setup. And I want to talk to Anthony now about what the Catholic in the pew, because that's what
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he runs. He runs a real sort of Catholic in the pew, the faithful Catholic kind of talk session with
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him and his guys. And just see what they're thinking about the church currently, about the
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new pontificate, and what we've just come out of, of 12 years of Francis. Anthony, welcome back to
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the program. Thank you for having me, John Henry. It's been a couple of years. You have a wonderful
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memory. I can't believe how well you remembered that talk. Very, very striking. Well, let's begin,
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as we always do, with the sign of the cross. In the name of the Father, and of the Son,
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and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. So Anthony, here we are in a new pontificate. It's an interesting time
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for the church. I just got back from Rome myself not too long ago, and was struck with what went on
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there with the speed of the election. Tell us how it went, especially when you discussed it with your
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guys on your show. How did it go? First thoughts right off the bat is just how amazing it is to be
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Catholic, and how the whole world looks to Rome, and they don't even know why. And there's something
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so amazing about our ritual that they all wish they had, that they can't help but just go and
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clamber around their TV to see this white smoke come out of a chimney. I think I, like many other
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Catholics during the conclave itself, was really hoping for a long conclave. Because we kind of saw it as
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if it's a long conclave, that means the conservatives were able to put up enough resistance to maybe
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fight for a little ground. And then my initial thoughts that first day were, oh my goodness,
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we're doomed. I actually like the way the conservatives and traditionalists have handled things,
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where I think it was important for us to make sure that the new pope didn't come into a climate of
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hostility, especially being an American pope. I think he's given little gestures to let us to
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signal towards us that look, the war is over. And it's been very nice to once again, feel like our
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father doesn't hate us. Because the last 12 years were very traumatic for all of us. And it's, it's a
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difficult thing to discuss. Because people still think it's odd for us to criticize the pope, but it was
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a very hard time to live through for 12 years of the constant comments of backwardness, rigid,
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breed like rabbits. I mean, it was just a nonstop barrage for us. So, and it wasn't just traditionalists
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who lost their Latin mass, it was all conservative Catholics felt this. And any of the good priests or
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bishops that spoke out, they were punished. I mean, we lost Bishop Strickland, we watched it happen with
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so many times we met at the canceled priest conference under the Francis pontificate. The few gestures
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he's given have felt a lot like, I would imagine what a child who has a very overbearing parent
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feels a sense of relief after that period of time is over. And it's been just interesting to just be
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Catholic again and not have this hostility towards the hierarchy again. Yeah, I've likened it myself to
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a kind of a dad who is kind of abusive with his kids, you know, verbally and psychologically abusive
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or emotionally abusive, whatever you call it. So the kids sort of like, they cringe whenever he goes
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to talk, you know, like, is he going to say something that's like really confusing or hurtful
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or something? That's what was happening. I mean, I, we've been doing LifeSite now for 28 years. So I
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remember reading the encyclicals from JP2 and Benedict as soon as they're released. And as journalists,
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we get them a little bit early. So, you know, especially in the West here, we're reading them all night
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long so that the morning when it's officially released, we're already written on it. It was
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awesome. And we continued that, but it was just, it was, it was, it was painful to read. And it became
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eventually an exercise in rather than find these nuggets of just joy and truth, but, but find these
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nuggets of heresy that were like, ah, here it is again. And it was so sad. It was, it was totally a
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different thing. And it's hard. I think most Catholics, because this is such a long period,
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most Catholics today, particularly the young people, Francis is their pontificate. My kids,
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I know, I know my, for my kids, basically they don't remember, you know, my eldest is 28.
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My youngest is 13. So Francis was the Pope. This was the whole, basically their adult,
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so far adult life is just that, a combative kind of papacy. So it's so strange for me,
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of course, JP two was the Pope I grew up with. And, and then Benedict was just basically an extension
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of the same thing. And so the, the experience is so totally different. It's, it's, it's hard to,
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So we had a couple of guys on that had converted under Francis. And one of the things I tried to
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explain to them was you, you guys have never experienced what it's like to defend the Pope
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against the secular media, because the secular media loved Francis so much. So, so they'd never
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had to face that situation where the secular media was attacking the church and coming after the,
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coming after the remarks the Pope had made. So I'm really hoping that they get the joy of fighting
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for their Pope now, you know, because what it felt like was a lot of these new converts came in and
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their instinct was to defend the Pope. And what they found was they were defending the Pope against
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Catholics who had lived through the previous pontificates. And it seemed very strange to
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them. And it's, that's understandable. You become Catholic and you, you, you know, you want to defend
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the Pope. And then all of a sudden you find all these, these other Catholics are very upset about it.
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I think for guys like us and those of us who lived through the previous pontificates,
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we always expected to receive persecution from the world. And it was like, okay, but our Pope is in
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our corner, like, especially in the pro-life movement, when we were arguing on, on, on behalf
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of what, like the moral issues, like how evil, the evils of contraception and IVF. So when you had
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a guy like John Paul II, who was talking about the culture of death constantly and Benedict, even at
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that Regensburg address, you think about how he was speaking out against Islam, like to go from that
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to then all of a sudden live through this situation where we were feeling like we were persecuted from
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the church itself. I think it was just so disorienting for those of us who had converted
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under John Paul II or had converted under Benedict to go from that stance to, to Francis that to even
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come in, in these first two weeks where he hasn't really said anything of substance yet, where we know
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exactly what he plans on doing, but we do get this sense that he's not going to be a revolutionary in
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the way Francis was. I mean, you think, so the early days of Francis from day one, it was, oh, he paid
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his own hotel bill. He's like, Jesus. I was like, wait, what? And then it was just one thing after
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another where he was just, you felt like you were just in such a strange battle. And it was so hard
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to defend Catholicism to Protestants. It was so hard to defend Catholicism to even your conservative
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atheists who were made, might've been Republican, but they're looking at this Pope and thinking he's a
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Marxist and things like that, that you really just, I mean, my heart and prayers go up for Pope Leo that
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we get a strong defender of the Catholic moral foundation once again, because it really, there's
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something joyful about suffering for the right cause.
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Some things that were funny right off the bat, because the media did attack him when he went and
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defended marriage as the union of one man, one woman. And it was funny. My kids were texting on the
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family chat just to say, Hey, the media is all shocked that the Pope is Catholic. I mean, this
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has been interesting because here we are at least a couple of weeks in and we're, and things are in
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relative peace. I remember the first two weeks of Francis, he had already made that insane statement
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about the rosary. He was so upset that people had prayed for him and were counting the rosary. They
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presented him with a rosary bouquet, like a bouquet of a spiritual bouquet. And they had counted,
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thousand something, something rosaries. And he was like, what's with the counting?
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It was funny. Cause I thought back then that was fake news. No Pope would ever cut up the rosary.
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Now that's fake. And it was huge for us because as the director of LifeSite, I was like, no,
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we're not going to cover that interview. And that was the big interview where he also talked about a
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gay lobby being in the Vatican. And if you look back to LifeSite, which is usually right on top of
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especially Vatican coverage, we didn't cover that right away because I thought that's fake.
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No Pope's going to cut the rosary. Sure enough, I was in Rome a week later and it wasn't fake.
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Some of the memories that popped up during their interregnum, because we were kind of processing
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the death of Francis and it like the rosary when people, because people had presented Francis with
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a bouquet of roses that each rose standard for a rosary that was set for, it wasn't just a bouquet.
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It was like thousands of bouquets of roses for his pontificate. And he reacted like it was this,
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this legalistic thing. And it was just, you remember these little tidbits and then I forget
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who I was speaking to, but we were remembering even the summit after the McCarrick scandal,
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when they brought everybody all of the, for the sex summit to Rome and how, if these men had
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worn sackcloth and ash and actually repented for their sins, it could have changed the course of the
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world. But instead they separated underage boys from men that are of age and they refused to confront
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the real issue, which is homosexuality in the church. And it was just, it was just a complete
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debacle. And all of these things that have just come up over the past few weeks, because I think
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a lot of us had had Francis fatigue towards the end of his papacy. And I almost just checked out
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and I couldn't even pay attention to the stuff anymore. And I think after fiducia, it was just
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like, you know what? We're just waiting for the next Pope. And we're just waiting for God to intervene
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at this point. And we stopped even covering most of the stuff anymore, but how long was it before
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you actually had your aha moment with Francis? Because I think all of us during the first couple
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of years wanted to be loyal sons of the church and defend the Pope. When was the change for you?
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I heard on radio, the announcement rather than watching, had I watched and seen Daniel's on the
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balcony with him? I would have flipped out, but I didn't. So for me, day three of the papacy
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is when he praised Casper. And we all knew Casper, as we used to call him, Casper, the friendly
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ecumenist, because he was a heretic who was all about the Jews don't need to convert and we don't
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preach Jesus to the Jews. And that was all insane. But when Francis praised him as a theologian,
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a theologian who does theology on the knees, I was like, oh, yeah, it's bad. But we were like,
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you know, Casper's German. Maybe he's like, he said good stuff too. They're confusing. They're
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intentionally confusing. And maybe that was all it was. So we sort of like, we're like, that was bad,
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but yeah, whatever. Well, you know, and that went on for a little while. But as that got worse and worse,
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we came onto it pretty darn early. Now, LifeSite paid for catching on early because people were
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condemning us left, right and center for how dare you and blah, blah, blah. And we were like, I can't
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do it anymore. We, I mean, it's so weird to understand how close we were to the Vatican at
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the time. Like I met Francis in his first few months personally, because we were invited to Rome
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because we were so close. We worked with the Vatican so much. I was one of three pro-life
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leaders asked to help celebrate Evangelium Vitae. It was an anniversary of Evangelium. And we went
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there and, you know, I was, I was asked to do the prayers up Via Della Conciliatione. That's the
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road that leads into St. Peter's Square. And we, the night before we had a candlelight vigil
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up there. And it was myself and a couple other leaders who were saying the prayers inside St.
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Peter's Square. And then the next day we were to meet the Holy Father and did and so on. That's how
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close we were to the Vatican at the time. If you can imagine, it sounds like a different life, but it
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was a very different time. It was very early on that we caught it though. And that was the, that was
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a, I think a grace, but it cost a lot to, to do that. Many of the folks who condemned us early on for,
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for just being forthright about what's going on later when they caught it were much more severe than
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we ever were. We have something very interesting going on right now that I wanted to discuss with
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you. We have, there are a lot of conservatives who are just pleasantly surprised. It's so far,
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so good, basically. But you also have this strange phenomenon. This was James Martin's reaction. Watch.
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It's a great choice. You know, he brings a wealth of experience from being a missionary in Peru,
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a bishop in Peru. He speaks, of course, perfect Spanish. I rejoice in this selection of Pope
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Leo XIV. I ask you all to pray for him. He's going to need our prayers and God bless Leo XIV. God bless
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the Augustinians. But it's not only James Martin. Cardinal Cupich reacted. At first, he wept tears of joy
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and then he talked about how he and Leo are good friends. Watch this.
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What are you hearing from back home? Lots of things. The culture of Chicago and the Midwest
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produced a pope. That's terrific. I think it's something that people are going to
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take pride in being from Chicago. I see you get a little choked up there. It touches deep.
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Very deep. Yeah. Pope Pius XI said men must look for the peace of Christ in the kingdom of Christ.
00:15:05.440
And he urged that the faithful give public honour to Christ the King so that individuals and states
00:15:10.620
would submit once more to the rule of their saviour. And that is why LifeSite News is raising
00:15:16.420
up the image of Christ the King across the United States. And you can help us reach millions more.
00:15:23.220
Please pledge your support today for these billboards at lifefunder.com slash Christ is King.
00:15:29.840
There's an interesting thing happening right now. And I've been watching it where the pope will give
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an address and he will say some good things about Francis. He will say some good things about
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synodality. And then maybe a little bit later on, he'll speak against ruling as an authoritarian or
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a dictator. And you watch the people who loved Francis will highlight the synodality stuff. And then those
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of us who are more on our side of the spectrum will highlight the comment about the authoritarianism.
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These two sides are both claiming poplia right now. And there is this relative peace in the church
00:16:07.340
right now. But in some way, I don't think that will last. All of us should take kind of the approach
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that you had said you were going to take when you came out. You said, look, we're not going to have
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an attitude of suspicion towards this pope. And we're going to go into it with cautious optimism.
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I think that is a very healthy approach. It doesn't mean we're deluded. It doesn't mean we think
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all of the problems that have come about since Vatican II are gone. I do see Leo speaking an awful
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lot about ecumenism. And I think ecumenism is probably one of the biggest problems in the church right now.
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Because unless you are trying to bring people into unity with the church with the truth,
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it's kind of just dialogue for the sake of dialogue. And it gives the impression that
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the church is not the one true church. So I am not going to jump onto the
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onto the like the Leo fan wagon yet. I'm just going to be respectful of the papacy. I'm going to be
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respectful of the pope. Because synodality is not inherently wrong. And I just hope that he goes in
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and if he does a synod, that we get a good document from it. Because there were even at some of the
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previous synods, Francis didn't necessarily get what he wanted out of them. So he'd have to throw
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a footnote in of his own making, you know? So if these synods go in and they're generally faithful,
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maybe we will get some good stuff out of it. But I do not see how these two sides can coincide,
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because there is such a different view of what Catholicism means between them.
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It is very interesting, because all those terms that are ambiguous, we're left up in the air with.
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Synodality means different things to different people, as does ecumenism. I think when JP2 was
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talking about ecumenism and or Benedict, they were talking about bringing people to the unity of the
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one true faith. Even in stuff that people thought was very confusing and wrong, it was definitely
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something you should have done, the kissing of the Quran of JP2. It was done, and everybody knew,
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it was done so as to bring them to the fullness. He was kissing what could be said to be true inside
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of their faith, and trying to entice them into the fullness of the reality of the one true faith.
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That was understood back then. Under Francis, there was totally, not only not understood,
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it was the opposite. It was basically, don't, don't convert, a la Casper, and so on and so forth.
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The ambiguous terminology stuff, the buzzwords, they cut both ways. I remember well that Ratzinger
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played this game. Do you remember how ecology was all the buzz? And so he started talking about
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a human ecology. And by that, he meant the need to be true to life and family, particularly the unity of
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a man and a woman. And people freaked out, but he was using their terminology. So you could creatively
00:19:02.620
use ecumenism, synodality, to mean whatever, and give it a Catholic twist. That would just be
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wonderful. And since we don't have that definition yet from him, that's totally, for me, game to give
00:19:14.620
him the benefit of the doubt and really hope, actually, that he's going to change these terms and make them
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mean what they should mean in a Catholic context. Look, what he said to the Eastern churches was
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absolutely beautiful, where he described their liturgy and the need for them to keep their
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ancient liturgy without giving into the pressures of the modern world to change it. So there are these
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signals that he might come in and maybe clean some of this stuff up. It's just, you know, I really,
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I hate to keep harping on it, but it's all of us are just so shell shocked from the past 12 years
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that we're just like, okay, we're reading everything with these like, oh, please, please let it be.
00:19:54.780
The one thing I really hope that comes from this papacy is that I see healing between brothers also,
00:20:00.540
because there were so many people who weren't going to speak to somebody else, because they publicly said
00:20:07.140
something about the hierarchy. And now if they talk to them, there's guilt by association. And there was a
00:20:13.020
genuine fraternity amongst Catholics, not human fraternity, but a genuine fraternity amongst
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Catholics before Francis that kind of dissipated when he came and you saw friendships break and you
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saw relationships get destroyed. So if we can have that restored, it would be a beautiful opportunity
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to start building bridges like Pope Leo has mentioned a few times.
00:20:35.500
Yeah. There are so many Catholics who I used to know and now won't talk to me, consider me an enemy
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and whatever else. And I, I don't consider them such I'm saddened, but it is, you're right. And it's
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poisonous. It's, it's so terrible. The healing from that would be incredible. I'm hoping and praying with
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you on that score for sure. And I understand the want to do it, but I think the sort of lionizing of the
00:21:03.500
memory of Francis is, is harmful. Uh, that comment from Pope Leo the other day, where he thought
00:21:10.060
Francis was accompanying them from heaven, the cardinals, the hierarchy in the church,
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they have to recognize a little bit the suffering that Catholics underwent verbal or psychological
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abuse of sorts. So we don't sort of gaslight the children who were abused. You have to acknowledge
00:21:30.860
their pain. You have to say, okay, yeah, there was definitely, I don't think there's many cardinals
00:21:34.940
on earth at all who won't acknowledge, yeah, no, a lot of that was just not on the whole
00:21:42.540
same sex blessing, couple blessings, by the way, um, that the whole of the African church just said,
00:21:47.740
um, no, God bless them. A lot of that's going to be rolled back. But I think the, the sort of
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abuse of the faithful that happened because of that. And with that has to be acknowledged and the,
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the, the, the faithful have to be consoled in that they were harmed there. And to, to basically say,
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oh, everything was fine. He's a saint now. That's, uh, I think that's ignoring something
00:22:13.180
that the church learned about abuse and how to deal with abuse victims.
00:22:16.780
And not just that it's confusing theology because we don't know if Pope Francis is in heaven and we
00:22:23.260
assume he's probably in purgatory, not because he was bad, but you should always assume everybody's
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in purgatory unless they're canonized. So we should be praying for all souls that are in purgatory.
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Now there's an aspect of me that wants to believe that he's, he's, he's signaling two things with that,
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possibly one is for those of us who thought he was going to come right out and just tear down the
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Francis papacy. That's not going to happen, but maybe he's also trying to let the other side think,
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oh, no, no, I love everything Francis did, but then we're going to have to fine tune some of these,
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you know, some of these errors or problems. And people will see that it's coming from a place of
00:23:00.460
love and not see it as a hostile move when he does go to correct those things. So there are
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different ways to view it. And until he actually puts a little bit of action behind his words,
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it's going to be a waiting game. So it's only his first two weeks. And the first two weeks of a
00:23:15.420
papacy is just nonstop dignitaries coming and everybody wants to meet the new pope and all this stuff.
00:23:20.460
I really hope that this pope doesn't travel like John Paul II did and do the world youth days every
00:23:27.100
year and do the world tour. And I think there's a lot that needs to be done in the church right now,
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especially within the diocese of Rome, within the curia. So I hope he works on fixing a lot of that
00:23:37.580
stuff. He said he's going to spend some time praying about his curial appointments. I think,
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I really hope he does do that because a lot of the appointments that France has made need to be
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addressed. We really cannot continue with Cardinal Tucho Fernandez as the DDF head. I would love to see
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maybe Cardinal Burke given some kind of honorary something, you know, to undo some of the hurt that was
00:24:03.420
caused there. Same thing with Bishop Strickland. I don't, I don't think he'll get his diocese back,
00:24:08.780
but maybe something just honorary to show that he's still a son in good standing in the church,
00:24:13.900
things like that. Things like that could go a very long way for those of us who,
00:24:19.020
while still being kind to Francis, he could extend olive branches to those of us who endured that
00:24:25.180
stuff. Oh, indeed. In fact, I just saw Taylor mentioned that, hey, the diocese of Austin is
00:24:30.060
actually free. So that he doesn't have to be, you know, given to Tyler necessarily, but there's lots
00:24:35.740
of spots. So let's pray. Let's, um, I know you do already, but let's, uh, let's make a real effort to
00:24:41.820
pray for Pope Leo. I think people will be freer to pray for the Pope now. They'll feel
00:24:46.940
in heart, they can do that in a way that was different. I prayed for Pope Francis an awful lot,
00:24:52.540
but it was honestly to pray for his conversion. With this Pope, we're praying more traditionally
00:24:56.300
as we would for the Pope, um, that, uh, he be strengthened by our Lord and we'll see what comes.
00:25:02.140
And the one good thing, it was from Bishop Strickland actually, that, uh, I got more
00:25:08.700
assuredness like that. God's got this, God's created us for this time, whatever it brings,
00:25:13.820
he'll give us the grace to deal with it. And, uh, so we can go forward, enjoy,
00:25:18.860
despite having crosses to deal with. It's actually comforting to know that we're
00:25:24.300
in a very specific part of the story of salvation that, I mean, it got a little exciting the last 12
00:25:30.380
years. As crazy as things were, it was exciting to be Catholic. I did see a lot of us come together
00:25:36.220
to fight some of the errors and, you know, as many relationships that were broken, there were
00:25:41.660
also many made. And we always have to remind ourselves that God is in control and no matter
00:25:47.100
what is happening, he is the one allowing these things to happen and that they will all work to
00:25:53.180
the good for those of us who love God. Amen to that. Anthony Abadde, so good to be with you.
00:25:58.700
You can catch him, folks, at Avoiding Babylon on YouTube and wherever else. God bless you,
00:26:03.820
Anthony. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. And God bless all of you.
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