The John-Henry Westen Show - January 28, 2026


How the Church CHANGED Overnight： Controversy of Vatican II

Topics
council documents ambiguity Monsignor Schuller renovation of St. Agnes Church ecumenism
Hosted by
John-Henry Westen
Mentioned
Pope Paul VI Cardinal Pell John XXIII Humanae Vitae Bajo Monsignor Schuller Cardinal Bajo Charles Murray Nuncio Richard Schuller Bernard Herring Charlie Curran Mary Snowflake Mary Relevant Bishop Boyle Jesus Christ Holy Family Pope Joan Freemason Bergoglio and 13 more
UNSCRIPTED： The Jews, Young People and the Reality of Hell How can the DEVIL be SO CLOSE to the POPE？

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 2 minutes

Words per minute

147.45

Word count

9,259

Sentence count

980

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

13

sentences flagged

Hate speech

20

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Faith and Reason, Fr. Charles M. Myrrh talks about the impact of the Second Vatican Council on his life, and how it changed the course of his life. He also talks about his early life growing up in the 1950s and 60s in the United States and Canada, and the impact it had on the way he saw the world.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 You could always depend on the Catholic Church for defending liberty from non-liberty, 0.99
00:00:05.160 defending right from wrong. All of a sudden you had to dialogue, can abortion in some cases be right?
00:00:12.280 Friends, we are very privileged to be in the home, in the hacienda, if you will,
00:00:18.020 of Father Charles Myrrh. Many of you will know Father Charles Myrrh from Faith and Reason,
00:00:23.260 and probably many more of you will know of him from his books, his several books, actually,
00:00:31.120 Murder in the 33rd Degree, as well as some of his other books, particularly probably one about a rather famous,
00:00:40.980 what would you call her, woman who dealt with the Pope, with Pope Pius XII, Mother Pascualina, indeed.
00:00:52.160 And we're very privileged to speak with Father here in his hacienda in Spain, in Seville,
00:00:59.200 Sevilla, Spain, as they call it here. Father, thank you so much for joining us.
00:01:02.720 Thank you very much for having me, and thank you for being here.
00:01:05.160 It's so good to be here in person. Let's begin as you always do, at the sign of the cross.
00:01:10.120 In nomine Patris, et fili, et spiritus sancti. Amen.
00:01:14.900 Amen. Father, for those who don't know you well, tell us a little bit about yourself to start.
00:01:21.660 From the beginning? It's a very long story.
00:01:25.580 Give us the little sketch, and then we'll get more into it.
00:01:28.000 I was born in 1950 in St. Paul, Minnesota, first of eight children. One died when he was an infant,
00:01:36.580 as a matter of fact, just hours old. And so we are seven siblings, and I was given a fine education.
00:01:44.920 In those days, it was a parochial school, and everything was taught to me very well, meticulously.
00:01:54.820 And by two groups of sisters, particularly. The first were the Dominican Sisters of Cincinnati,
00:02:00.840 who have gone the way of all flesh. That's the last one. I'll turn off the lights.
00:02:05.460 And the other group was the Sisters of St. Kazimir, a Lithuanian order, who certainly gave us a fine education
00:02:14.940 and also put the fear of communism in us, because we got to hear firsthand some of those who had suffered
00:02:23.680 under communism and left Lithuania and Poland. It was an excellent education.
00:02:29.820 I remember I was an altar boy, of course. Everybody was an altar boy. I remember the announcement they made
00:02:36.980 for the Ecumenical Council, an ecumenical council. It cost us a lot to learn that word, ecumenical.
00:02:43.940 And I'm still unsure of its meaning. But it was 1962, and they were talking about this ecumenical council.
00:02:53.740 It was going to be a grand and glorious thing. I went to Christian Brothers High School.
00:02:59.820 In St. Paul. And then began realizing what the Second Vatican Council was.
00:03:09.560 Actually, what it wasn't. What it wasn't, I should say. How people were interpreting it to be.
00:03:17.060 And it was, in the Department of Religion, chaos.
00:03:21.560 But that chaos was not just in the Department of Religion.
00:03:24.980 Primarily there, you heard it there, because all of a sudden there weren't seven sacraments.
00:03:32.100 There were eight. The church was a sacrament.
00:03:35.720 There were no ten commandments to follow any longer.
00:03:40.380 We were not obliged to follow them. Christ changed all that.
00:03:43.560 So we're getting all of this in religion, which was bizarre.
00:03:46.280 But also, in the lives of the brothers, of the Christian brothers, we saw chaos. 1.00
00:03:54.560 Many of them left before we graduated in 1969.
00:03:59.880 There was just chaos, and there was confusion.
00:04:02.180 And there was, you could detect tension among them, among the Christian brothers themselves.
00:04:08.400 One community of men that we dealt with as our teachers.
00:04:11.160 We were beginning to see the chaos and the confusion, just by living with them, by living in their community experience.
00:04:21.080 Was there something that precipitated it? Could you tell?
00:04:25.320 Because this is one of the questions that I think so many of us have, who were born after the Council.
00:04:29.600 I was born in 1970.
00:04:31.140 We watched this.
00:04:32.540 The Council is still something for us that's mysterious.
00:04:35.060 What we see is what you just described.
00:04:38.740 Not only in your school, but everywhere, like across the board.
00:04:42.860 But you were saying it wasn't the Council itself.
00:04:44.900 It was what happened in and around.
00:04:47.520 What?
00:04:48.180 What was it?
00:04:48.960 What do you think happened?
00:04:49.660 Because this is a universal experience.
00:04:51.980 It was a falling out everywhere.
00:04:53.540 And particularly so in Canada, where I live, in Quebec, it just, it went so fast and so furious.
00:05:01.560 Of course, it's going to be much more complex than what I'm trying to get across right now.
00:05:05.060 However, I would say this.
00:05:07.780 Maybe this is too simplistic, but I don't think so completely.
00:05:12.740 You had, you had the world politically, socially divided into two groups.
00:05:21.200 The non-communistic world, Canada, the United States, all of Latin America, and the communist world.
00:05:30.300 And they were at odds, obviously.
00:05:32.380 What held them separate was the Catholic Church.
00:05:39.100 The Church made a divide between what was happening in the world.
00:05:45.300 The Church was the safeguard, the salvaguardia, of communism, against communism.
00:05:52.380 All of a sudden, that was, that floodgate was open.
00:05:59.720 And we were dialoguing with communist principles.
00:06:05.140 Socialist principles were brought into, to, to even high school teaching.
00:06:10.240 I don't know grade school, but I would imagine so also.
00:06:13.320 There wasn't that divide any longer.
00:06:16.180 And there was an invitation, almost a mocking invitation, that if you wanted to be with it,
00:06:23.280 you would be open to dialogue.
00:06:26.380 Open, open to discussing what the enemy is thinking.
00:06:30.300 Because up until then, they were the enemy.
00:06:32.100 We never met any, really, except, I guess, a couple I have, older, oldsters.
00:06:39.460 But that divide finished.
00:06:42.980 And there was chaos.
00:06:45.640 There was simply chaos.
00:06:47.020 Chaos in thinking.
00:06:48.640 Chaos in attitudes.
00:06:50.100 All of a sudden, if you were anti-communist, or if you were anti-socialist, you were a bigot.
00:06:55.840 You weren't open to new ideas, to this, and the other thing.
00:07:00.680 And it wasn't a question of being open to new ideas.
00:07:02.920 It was being a question of being open to insanity and to chaos.
00:07:08.440 And this reflected itself in these religious communities.
00:07:14.000 All of a sudden, there was not, there was no discipline.
00:07:18.660 There was no real regard for authority.
00:07:21.340 Every priest in a community, every religious brothers, we had the Christian brothers, the sisters.
00:07:30.000 Everyone was supposed to be acting like an individual, and everyone was supposed to be individually following his or her own conscience.
00:07:36.740 And this comes directly out of the council, or where does this come from?
00:07:40.040 It came from the council, because, in this sense, after the council, there was a period of great confusion.
00:07:48.600 On the part of the bishops, let me say it even more strongly, on the part of the bishops who themselves had attended the council,
00:07:59.540 as to how to interpret these things, what do these changes mean?
00:08:05.400 Nobody knew what they meant.
00:08:07.560 And everyone was proclaiming his own independent thought as to what they meant.
00:08:12.540 So you've got sisters leaving the convent, you've got priests leaving the priesthood,
00:08:17.900 and then turning around and attacking what always was in the church.
00:08:22.540 You had a movement in the United States, also socially speaking, I'm sure this happened in Canada,
00:08:29.100 where all of a sudden, you were either conservative or liberal.
00:08:34.500 We never had those terms.
00:08:36.780 We just didn't have those terms before.
00:08:38.680 You could say a conservative estimate would be this, or a liberal estimate, but they weren't camps.
00:08:45.480 They weren't areas, they weren't philosophies.
00:08:49.040 Not really.
00:08:50.840 But the world began to be divided into conservative and liberal.
00:08:56.540 And you saw these divisions.
00:08:58.500 They were in the parishes, they were in the school system, they were in everything.
00:09:02.720 That we just didn't have before.
00:09:05.060 I'm not saying that everything before was perfect.
00:09:08.420 It certainly wasn't.
00:09:09.500 Not since Adam and Eve.
00:09:11.580 But people got along.
00:09:15.520 And even your political views, for example, the very question of abortion.
00:09:22.280 I can't remember the first time I heard the word abortion.
00:09:24.560 Maybe I was 15 years old.
00:09:26.900 It wasn't a question.
00:09:31.060 Everyone understood that this was an evil.
00:09:32.900 Birth control, artificial birth control.
00:09:37.980 It wasn't a question.
00:09:39.840 Certainly not for Catholics. 1.00
00:09:41.920 And for most Protestants and Jews, it was a question off the...
00:09:47.700 It just wasn't considered.
00:09:49.540 All of a sudden, these things are considered, and they're re-evaluated,
00:09:53.300 and they're given moral worth.
00:09:56.460 Right, wrong.
00:09:57.880 Right, wrong.
00:09:58.720 And the church lost her opportunity to teach.
00:10:04.960 Everyone was afraid.
00:10:06.680 Our bishops all of a sudden became afraid of their priests and of the religious,
00:10:10.820 because they were threatening to close schools to this.
00:10:13.500 They were threatening the order.
00:10:15.200 They were threatening, if you will, the ecclesiastical status quo.
00:10:18.500 And so you didn't have great direction from bishops.
00:10:24.360 In these times, for example, I remember Cardinal Kroll of Philadelphia being an outstanding bishop.
00:10:33.040 He had an opinion, and he wasn't afraid to voice it.
00:10:36.820 He was heavily criticized, but he maintained order as long as he was around.
00:10:43.140 When he wasn't, when he had ended, there was chaos also in Philadelphia and on the East.
00:10:48.480 It was that period of confusion where we had bishops, of course.
00:10:56.400 We had 2,800 bishops or so attending the Second Vatican Council.
00:11:01.820 When everything was cut and dry, when they understood how everything was supposed to be,
00:11:07.320 how it was supposed to run, etc., things went fine.
00:11:10.900 Because the church, the hierarchy, the laws were there to back them up.
00:11:16.180 When all of a sudden they were told to think independently,
00:11:21.460 there was chaos, and they didn't know how to act.
00:11:26.580 Many of them were very frustrated.
00:11:28.000 If you talk to, I've spoken to many older bishops who retired after that,
00:11:32.840 they thanked God for the retirement.
00:11:36.140 So there was this moment of chaos because the church had let down her guard.
00:11:41.880 That was it.
00:11:42.700 You could always depend on the Catholic Church for defending liberty from non-liberty, 0.99
00:11:49.820 from defending right from wrong.
00:11:52.140 All of a sudden, not.
00:11:54.000 All of a sudden, you had to dialogue.
00:11:56.240 Is this right?
00:11:57.460 Is this wrong?
00:11:58.840 Can abortion, in some cases, be right?
00:12:02.240 It was never even thought of.
00:12:03.760 You never thought of that.
00:12:05.080 Could it be right?
00:12:06.380 It's like, could murder, in some cases, be right?
00:12:09.520 Well, even today, to say something as outlandish as that,
00:12:12.680 you'd find people on this side and on that side.
00:12:15.780 Then you didn't until that.
00:12:18.840 I'm trying to understand how that flows from the council.
00:12:21.600 Is it because the council documents were ambiguous, which I've heard a lot?
00:12:26.840 Or was there some other communication made somehow that things are up for grabs?
00:12:33.460 How does this stem from the council?
00:12:35.100 First of all, I don't think most priests ever read, really read, or studied the council documents.
00:12:47.000 It was what you interpreted, what you thought.
00:12:50.160 You were free to think.
00:12:51.540 And nobody challenged it because some on the other side hadn't read those documents either.
00:12:56.280 So you could, the ambiguity of the documents of the council comes later.
00:13:00.840 Oh.
00:13:01.400 It really does.
00:13:02.420 Right now, it's whatever you think those documents were.
00:13:06.700 Okay.
00:13:08.180 Nobody, nobody, you have to at least read them to be ambiguous, to find out their ambiguity.
00:13:13.180 Right.
00:13:13.400 This, this was just the chaos.
00:13:15.820 The council, how many times I heard that?
00:13:18.640 Every, we all heard it.
00:13:19.920 Well, no one does that anymore.
00:13:21.280 The council did away with that.
00:13:23.200 The council did away with what?
00:13:24.540 An otherwise pious religious saying to me, well, nobody prays the rosary anymore.
00:13:28.820 The council did away with that.
00:13:30.520 When, what are you kidding?
00:13:31.700 The council did away from the rosary?
00:13:33.180 What are you talking about?
00:13:34.840 It's whatever you wanted, you could blame the council.
00:13:38.880 And, and so this, this liberty was just open and you had as your defense, the council.
00:13:45.660 Which nobody had read.
00:13:47.440 Nobody really knew.
00:13:48.880 And they're, okay.
00:13:50.320 So, and, and bishops, their authority was challenged constantly.
00:13:53.700 One, what I can pinpoint for you, the moment that things changed.
00:14:04.480 You want that moment?
00:14:05.900 Yes.
00:14:08.100 Humanae Vitae, on human life, encyclical, Paul VI, came out in 1968.
00:14:15.620 I was still in high school.
00:14:16.680 As a matter of fact, I was in Rome.
00:14:18.020 I was a student in Rome when it, when it, when it came out.
00:14:22.720 And the council had just ended then, right?
00:14:24.260 The council had ended in 65.
00:14:25.960 Okay.
00:14:26.640 But there was this confusion of what was the council?
00:14:31.620 What did the council say?
00:14:32.800 What did it teach?
00:14:33.840 Right.
00:14:34.620 But in 1968, Humanae Vitae came out.
00:14:38.820 In essence, it banned artificial birth control.
00:14:41.600 Okay.
00:14:42.460 It had not been published yet.
00:14:44.460 But we're talking about days before its publication, when I believe there were six priests in the Washington, D.C. area, protested.
00:14:58.020 Oh, those are the days of protest.
00:14:59.540 Everyone with a sign.
00:15:01.420 Nobody had ever seen that before either.
00:15:03.300 No, I certainly hadn't.
00:15:04.240 But they protested in front of the Nunciatur, the apostolic delegation, it was called in those days, before we had formal diplomatic relations with the Vatican, in front of the Nunciatur.
00:15:17.240 And Cardinal Boyle of Washington suspended those priests.
00:15:24.760 They were against Humanae Vitae, which they could not really have read.
00:15:30.040 Yeah.
00:15:30.880 Right?
00:15:31.380 They were against it.
00:15:33.040 They protested.
00:15:34.160 For that act of disobedience, the Cardinal of Washington, D.C., declared them suspended.
00:15:39.780 Right?
00:15:40.660 Within 24, 48 hours at least.
00:15:43.420 Anyway.
00:15:45.840 Cardinal Boyle received a telephone call from Pope Paul VI, personally, forcefully asking him to apologize to those priests and to reinstate them.
00:16:00.060 Oh, okay.
00:16:03.080 Yes.
00:16:03.840 Yes.
00:16:04.780 Yes.
00:16:05.220 That's exactly right.
00:16:07.020 They were, the Cardinal, obedient to the Pope, apologized to them and reinstated them that it was finished.
00:16:15.060 Discipline, especially in the American church, but in the church at large, was over.
00:16:20.760 It was over.
00:16:21.680 You could see that by protesting, you could be right.
00:16:25.140 And even the Pope of Rome would be on your side.
00:16:29.460 The man who wrote the document, Humanae Vitae, that encyclical, even he would say, you know, you could be right.
00:16:38.000 This is it.
00:16:38.640 It opened a Pandora box that has really never been closed.
00:16:41.440 That's super interesting, because that takes us sort of beyond the council.
00:16:46.380 The council somehow creates this atmosphere of questioning, openness, ambiguity, you could say.
00:16:53.540 But they weren't known.
00:16:54.740 So I guess that maybe can be due to what Ratzinger called, or Benedict called, the council of the media, what they got from TV.
00:17:04.760 You know it.
00:17:05.380 I called it the Council of Time magazine.
00:17:07.240 And that's where most priests got their theological information, Time magazine.
00:17:13.720 So this is like, they have their own spin on things where, okay, we can all question now and be happy.
00:17:21.520 And then that morphs into these, you said six, five or six?
00:17:26.800 I believe there were six.
00:17:27.860 Okay, so six priests protesting in the nunciature.
00:17:32.280 And is it Cardinal Boyle or Bishop Boyle?
00:17:35.380 Cardinal.
00:17:36.100 Cardinal Boyle.
00:17:36.740 So what could have possessed, and I use that word specifically, what could have possessed the Pope, Paul VI, to say that to Cardinal Boyle?
00:17:49.140 The same thing that would possess a general in a war during the battle to call back his troops and say, maybe that was a wrong move.
00:17:59.720 It was self-doubt.
00:18:01.720 It was self-doubt.
00:18:04.960 What people saw this as, and the clergy was quick to pick up on this, the Pope himself is doubting.
00:18:13.820 And doubting the teaching?
00:18:15.600 Doubting the teaching.
00:18:16.480 Oh, gosh.
00:18:17.140 Doubting the teaching, yes.
00:18:18.540 He's doubting what he just signed into law, or what he established in the encyclical.
00:18:23.780 There was doubt in Paul VI himself.
00:18:26.560 Well, this gave rise to a revolution of openness.
00:18:32.980 Also, let's remember this.
00:18:35.420 At that time, people went to confession.
00:18:36.940 It was an active sacrament.
00:18:41.040 Priests would spend hours and hours and hours in a confessional.
00:18:45.620 And all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, but it was a topic of the day, women were beginning to be upset with the load they had in life. 0.73
00:18:55.380 They have six children.
00:18:57.600 They can't afford a seventh.
00:18:59.880 They have, and then it came down, we have two children, we can't afford a third, right?
00:19:05.460 The tolerance levels shifted radically.
00:19:09.180 However, you've got these priests listening to these women and men, and fathers would have the same thing, with real complaints.
00:19:19.500 We don't have the finances.
00:19:21.620 I don't have, I don't make that kind of money.
00:19:23.800 How can we do this?
00:19:24.760 How can we educate it?
00:19:26.080 How can we give our children what we want them to have in life?
00:19:30.420 By having more children, we decrease the possibility of success in their lives.
00:19:34.440 What do we do?
00:19:35.260 Well, you've got these, and a lot of psychological problems also with women, quite honestly, who could not bear having more children. 0.99
00:19:46.680 They couldn't handle that.
00:19:48.260 And these are real cases.
00:19:49.480 And these people are coming to confession saying, why can't we use artificial contraception?
00:19:55.800 When you're a well-intentioned priest trying to counsel and give advice, it's very easy to sympathize on the wrong side of the issue and not present the right side.
00:20:10.260 Because there is a right side, which is acceptable to both sides.
00:20:14.920 That wasn't presented.
00:20:16.680 Natural family planning, for example, existed, always existed.
00:20:19.940 I remember it was called, it was called, the rhythm method was mocked openly.
00:20:26.600 It was called Vatican roulette, Vatican roulette.
00:20:30.500 It was, yeah, I remember that.
00:20:32.380 And, and, but it wasn't Vatican roulette.
00:20:35.260 But there were ways, and in natural family planning, there are ways that are specifically mentioned and explained for people's education, and they work perfectly well.
00:20:45.280 That wasn't around as an option.
00:20:48.020 So the option was artificial contraception.
00:20:50.620 There was also another confusion with that issue that, and I remember this, priests were counseling people, were counseling women to, to have no qualms about using artificial contraception.
00:21:07.960 We're talking about the pill, the famous pill, so that they could have longer, they could build up energies to have children.
00:21:15.240 They could, right, they could replenish their, their physical and emotional and whatever supplies of energy to be able to have children.
00:21:23.860 Well, this was, this was diabolical because it wasn't, it certainly wasn't for that reason.
00:21:30.180 There was all of this ambiguity, again, it's beginning, on that moral question.
00:21:36.200 That moral question opened, as you know very well, in LifeSite, it opened, it opened the gate to horrendous other questions.
00:21:45.380 We're now not facing, we're in, to euthanasia.
00:21:49.740 Nobody would have even thought this possible.
00:21:51.800 Had you brought that up at that time that it was, it was going to be possible, euthanasia would be a consequence of this, you would be laughed to scorn.
00:21:59.580 Yeah.
00:21:59.800 I remember early, even in the, in the pro-life movement, and it's only, you know, 25 years ago, we would say that, you know, that obviously abortion is going to naturally lead to euthanasia.
00:22:11.020 It was always, you are so extreme.
00:22:14.180 But it was the same with, with, with homosexual unions leading to marriage. 0.78
00:22:19.680 Like, do you remember?
00:22:20.720 And they were swearing it.
00:22:22.000 Absolutely not.
00:22:22.820 The whole reason why we're having this is so we won't have to have homosexual marriage. 1.00
00:22:26.900 Well, I remember, I remember the main argument for, for artificial contraception.
00:22:30.780 And notice that I keep saying artificial contraception was so that you could have perfect children.
00:22:37.660 You could have the, the amount of children you, you, you thought was right.
00:22:41.920 And you could give those children the best, finest education.
00:22:45.480 You could give them everything materially that they needed in the world.
00:22:48.880 And time, you'd have time for your children.
00:22:52.380 So what, what, what artificial contraception promised was perfection.
00:22:56.800 You would only have the children that you could, you could really handle or you could, right?
00:23:01.880 That's it.
00:23:02.920 Well, it came down to having one child.
00:23:05.920 And you see what that's doing to Europe today.
00:23:08.780 It's, it's, we're not going to get into that whole thing, but Europe today is, is practically futureless.
00:23:15.460 Because they have no population, the, the, the importation of other peoples from around the world is almost a necessity for, for economies to go. 0.91
00:23:27.060 It's, it's upset everything, but it promised perfection.
00:23:30.240 It promised happiness, fulfillment, liberty.
00:23:34.940 Everything was going to be wonderful.
00:23:36.140 And you were going to have the right children and just, just those children.
00:23:40.920 Right.
00:23:41.240 And then we would come to the, we've come, we've come to the point is the doctor would say to you, um, madam, I think that that child is, uh, is not developing correctly.
00:23:50.920 We're not sure. 0.99
00:23:52.400 Well, just in case we should kill it. 1.00
00:23:54.860 Hmm. 1.00
00:23:55.980 Um, would you like your loved one killed on Saturday or can we wait until Monday for the euthanasia?
00:24:03.620 Uh, these were, I'm telling you unthinkable questions.
00:24:09.880 And if you brought them up, if, if you thought of the unthinkable, you were ridiculed harshly by Catholic theologians.
00:24:18.520 Also, you had Charlie Curran, uh, you had, uh, uh, uh, Bernard Herring in Rome, uh, all of, all of these people rewriting moral theology.
00:24:28.760 Yeah, there was a lot of confusion, but people took advantage of that confusion to bring it in one direction.
00:24:38.160 That ridicule of the eventualities, which thinking people suspected, do you think that ridicule was intentional because they knew where it was going, but they were trying to hide it?
00:24:50.660 Or do you think they honestly, I think, I think a lot of them honestly believed that.
00:24:54.700 Oh, really?
00:24:55.540 Yeah, but I think they honestly believed that.
00:24:57.360 At that stage, they're looking, there are many ways of looking at a problem.
00:25:03.240 You know this.
00:25:04.220 You can look at the short term or the long term.
00:25:06.800 There are proximate causes and there are remote causes.
00:25:10.460 You can look at it that way.
00:25:12.480 These were looking only at the proximate.
00:25:15.440 They were looking at what, what, what, what this could happen, what this could affect today.
00:25:19.320 How it could make me, and this is very important because modern pop psychology came around.
00:25:24.660 How can it make you happy?
00:25:26.980 How can you be realized?
00:25:28.840 How can you realize yourself?
00:25:30.780 How can you fulfill yourselves?
00:25:33.100 Our, our, our poor religious sisters were, were filled with this nonsense. 1.00
00:25:37.480 Your, your life isn't being realized. 0.96
00:25:39.420 You're not realizing yourself.
00:25:40.820 You're a slave to be teaching these children in grade schools, to be taking care of people
00:25:45.820 in Catholic hospitals, uh, and orphanages and this, that, and the other thing.
00:25:49.820 No, no, no.
00:25:50.540 Get it.
00:25:50.880 Realize yourself.
00:25:52.840 Realize yourself.
00:25:54.240 I remember just, just in parentheses, we had an orphanage in Mexico.
00:25:58.660 The new mother superior and mother general came from Rome and convinced, was trying to
00:26:04.040 convince our sisters who did, they were the mothers to all of these children.
00:26:08.760 And they did a fantastic job.
00:26:12.260 Leave this, leave the orphanage. 0.98
00:26:14.900 We'll get, we'll get people, we'll get some other system.
00:26:17.320 And you should be working in a pharmacy and you should be working, selling flowers at the
00:26:21.780 market.
00:26:22.680 Insane ideas, insane ideas, which, which caused tremendous confusion in an otherwise peaceful
00:26:30.760 situation.
00:26:31.700 And this was the mother superior from Rome?
00:26:33.280 Yes.
00:26:33.820 But this is what happened.
00:26:34.740 This is what happened also in the general elections.
00:26:38.080 First of all, you had, again, maybe this was done.
00:26:42.540 I hope it was done with the best of intentions, but all bishops had to retire at 75.
00:26:50.720 Where previously they didn't.
00:26:51.900 Yes.
00:26:52.320 Yeah.
00:26:52.560 Previously they didn't.
00:26:53.420 Yeah.
00:26:54.160 You had bishops who were almost a hundred years old, right?
00:26:58.020 But he was, he was the patriarch of his diocese.
00:27:01.460 He went, he ran it.
00:27:02.500 In certain circumstances, they were unable to mentally.
00:27:06.120 They had a staff of, of able-bodied men who had studied and knew how to run things.
00:27:12.060 And you didn't have to do a lot of thinking because the rules were clear.
00:27:18.480 All of a sudden, the bishops had to retire at 75.
00:27:23.660 All of a sudden, mother superiors and father superiors of communities, even the Jesuits,
00:27:30.880 for example, their leaders, their superiors were elected for life.
00:27:37.200 Not for eight years, not for six years, for life.
00:27:42.320 Pastors in churches would have, for example, father so-and-so is the pastor of the Holy Family Church.
00:27:47.920 Well, father so-and-so was there for life when he was named pastor.
00:27:53.600 So you knew who you were going to deal with for the rest of your life.
00:27:57.760 That ended.
00:27:58.780 And so now we've got these short-term things and we need a new election.
00:28:03.460 We need a new superior.
00:28:04.960 Now is your chance.
00:28:06.460 Remember how much you hated the discipline of that one?
00:28:09.120 Well, here's a fresh, brand new face with, with new ideas.
00:28:12.540 And this is what happened in my book.
00:28:14.460 And it's not to plug the book, but murder in the 33rd degree.
00:28:17.460 I explained how Cardinal Baggio, who is in charge of naming bishops,
00:28:23.240 all of the bishops in the world, relished the whole thing of bishops turning 75.
00:28:28.020 They were the, almost the majority had already turned 75.
00:28:33.060 Overnight, we had to name new bishops and they were not well named, many of them.
00:28:39.080 Baggio, you contend, was a Freemason.
00:28:42.180 Yes, there was, there's no, there's no question.
00:28:44.620 Anyone who, anyone who denies that is, well, sympathetic to Freemasonry, I suppose.
00:28:49.580 So here is, this is, this is fascinating.
00:28:53.080 So at this time, when the new rule is implemented, that 75 is a retirement,
00:29:00.140 you have a glut of retirees like you've never had before.
00:29:03.520 Glut is a good word. 1.00
00:29:04.660 In the whole, in the whole history of the church.
00:29:06.480 And so he has to name tons of bishops.
00:29:09.640 Do you have any, any accounting of how many we're talking about?
00:29:12.060 Oh, I don't know, but the majority, I think he replaced, who is Jadot, was the papal,
00:29:17.880 the apostolic delegate, which now we call the Nuncio in the United States.
00:29:23.800 Jadot gave an interview to Time Magazine, of course, which was everyone's authority for
00:29:29.600 Religious News, Time Magazine.
00:29:31.380 When he retired, he said in the interview, I remember reading it, that his greatest achievement
00:29:36.760 was having named 70, 75 or 78 liberal bishops to the United States.
00:29:44.980 In liberal dioceses.
00:29:46.220 Just to the United States?
00:29:47.280 Yes, just in the United States, in his time as Nuncio.
00:29:50.260 Oh my gosh.
00:29:51.000 So this, this, but Bajo is in charge of the entire world.
00:29:54.400 All of the candidates, you would have papal nuncios all over the world, sending in a tersier 1.00
00:30:00.940 of three names for bishops.
00:30:03.600 And then Bajo would choose one of them and then name the bishop in the name of the Pope,
00:30:08.440 of course.
00:30:09.180 Yeah.
00:30:09.480 Right.
00:30:09.800 We would say the Holy Father appointed.
00:30:11.920 Well, the Holy Father doesn't even know so-and-so.
00:30:14.500 Bajo did.
00:30:15.340 He did an investigation on them, but they were all liberals.
00:30:18.960 They were all liberals.
00:30:19.880 I'm not saying they were all Freemasons like he was, but he certainly had the mentality
00:30:24.380 he had a Masonic mentality for bishops.
00:30:27.840 And almost overnight, you had this conflict between bishops, conservatives, the old school,
00:30:37.360 and the new progressives who thought clearly and openly, and they were really in defense
00:30:43.520 of your rights.
00:30:45.200 This is what you had.
00:30:46.920 And in Canada, in Canada, as you know, unfortunately, you know very well, they went wild with this.
00:30:53.080 You look at French Canada, what a fantastic model of the church that was overnight.
00:31:01.140 Okay.
00:31:01.620 So finally, there's an explanation, actually a demarcation point with Boyle's decision from
00:31:07.580 Rome.
00:31:08.640 But then this very quick switch, because it was a mass retirement, and then a Mason is
00:31:16.880 in charge of replacement.
00:31:18.440 And you wonder, why are we having problems today?
00:31:23.500 Is that what you're wondering?
00:31:24.900 Well, it actually explains for one of the first times, for me anyway, the idea of how
00:31:32.480 this happens immediately, because that made no sense.
00:31:36.480 You would point back to the council, and somehow it's something with the council documents,
00:31:41.680 perhaps.
00:31:42.040 But again, as you said, nobody really read them.
00:31:45.120 Media council provides what they think it is, creates confusion, and then the confusion
00:31:50.740 is rubber stamped with the Boyle decision.
00:31:53.500 But then the hierarchy is sort of transformed overnight by the Bajo replacement.
00:31:59.940 It's unreal.
00:32:00.820 Yes.
00:32:01.640 Okay.
00:32:01.960 You had everything fell, everything that was established order.
00:32:07.600 And I'm not, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was perfect, because nothing is perfect,
00:32:12.220 and it was run by sometimes weak, and even sometimes corrupt men.
00:32:16.520 But it worked.
00:32:19.000 All of a sudden, there was nothing working.
00:32:22.820 There was nothing that was established.
00:32:25.300 Everything could be renegotiated.
00:32:27.240 And we ended up with, rather than bishops and pastors, CEOs, who have no opinion on matters.
00:32:38.060 I find this amazing.
00:32:40.120 Many of our bishops, I would say almost most, is that right?
00:32:43.340 That's not right, but you get it.
00:32:45.840 Where they won't give a theological opinion, or a pastoral solution to something.
00:32:52.380 Or their pastoral solution is a business negotiation just wrapped in a little bit of theology, enough.
00:33:00.820 But they're running corporations.
00:33:05.140 The question, the basic question, we get back to this always,
00:33:08.780 are they concerned for the salvation of souls?
00:33:11.840 And that almost causes most people to smile, because obviously they're not.
00:33:20.580 Obviously, it certainly doesn't seem like they are.
00:33:23.060 If they are, it's quite hidden.
00:33:25.680 And this is what happened.
00:33:27.360 It happened over a period maybe of 10 years after the council, and continued.
00:33:33.620 When you had Paul VI, when you had the Pope himself, almost reneging an encyclical that was given out just days before.
00:33:45.980 His own encyclical.
00:33:49.100 The history of that encyclical is fascinating, too.
00:33:52.120 One day we'll talk about it.
00:33:53.120 But it itself, the encyclical, has a history.
00:33:56.700 The one commission that was eliminated.
00:33:59.560 So you've got this chaos already in that.
00:34:02.460 And he decided that, I think, to accommodate everyone.
00:34:07.340 We want everyone happy.
00:34:08.800 All are welcome.
00:34:09.920 All, right?
00:34:10.460 This is this whole idea.
00:34:12.160 Well, to do that, he destroyed his own authority.
00:34:17.340 His authority was lessened greatly because of that.
00:34:21.240 And just so you understand the psychological effect that it had on him as a man,
00:34:26.280 he never wrote another encyclical for the rest of his pontificate.
00:34:30.240 Oh, wow.
00:34:30.680 Father, you also experienced something concomitantly with this.
00:34:34.860 All this is going on.
00:34:36.240 But also, the mass changes.
00:34:40.360 Now, my dad was born in 1928.
00:34:43.160 He lived through this period.
00:34:46.820 He was a visa officer for Canada.
00:34:48.380 He would go around in various countries and work.
00:34:51.260 And he described to me how, when they changed the mass, he lost a great deal.
00:34:58.860 Because he would be in Beirut and he would be all over the world in foreign tongues. 0.91
00:35:04.280 He spoke six languages.
00:35:06.360 But there were some places he went where he didn't even speak the local tongue.
00:35:09.640 But he always felt at home, he said, because he always had the mass.
00:35:13.380 And he could pray with the locals who, they couldn't speak, but they knew together, they could pray together and commune together.
00:35:20.600 But then that was gone.
00:35:24.380 And he felt very, for him, it might have been an extreme thing.
00:35:27.900 But it was like something they took from him.
00:35:30.560 It was like, what?
00:35:31.360 He was robbed of something, would you say?
00:35:33.580 Yes.
00:35:33.680 I think that's the correct term.
00:35:36.840 Indeed.
00:35:37.800 So you, too, experienced this as a younger man.
00:35:41.180 But you still experienced this.
00:35:42.900 So that you were, what age for you did it change?
00:35:46.480 And what did that do to you?
00:35:47.620 How do you experience that?
00:35:48.420 Things started changing in 1964, 1965, 1966.
00:35:56.480 Those were the years that, if people recall, or if they don't recall, I'll inform them.
00:36:04.680 A priest saying mass on the altar, which was turned in the direction of the people, not in the direction of God.
00:36:14.660 The priest had five or six books on the altar.
00:36:18.840 This was from that.
00:36:20.020 That changed last week.
00:36:21.180 And these are the new changes for this week.
00:36:22.840 And this, you had all of these things.
00:36:25.260 My father, my father used to joke.
00:36:27.520 He said, if I could redo my career rather than getting into construction, I'd come back as a printer and just get the rights to the Catholic Church in the United States.
00:36:41.780 Every week there was something new.
00:36:44.280 And you had these pamphlets and this and all on the altar because the mass was changing every week.
00:36:50.360 Every week you would go back and there was something different.
00:36:53.960 And it was, it was.
00:36:54.800 I'll tell you, I'm 15 years old at this time, right?
00:37:01.500 And I knew this was crazy.
00:37:03.840 I just, this is crazy.
00:37:05.040 I stopped attending the Latin mass.
00:37:11.320 Well, the Latin, the Latin, right.
00:37:13.740 What?
00:37:14.220 It was chaos.
00:37:16.540 I went to the Maronites.
00:37:18.220 We had a Maronite parish not far from us and joined the choir and became active in that parish, Holy Family, on the west side of St. Paul.
00:37:30.100 That made more sense to me, singing and praying in Arabic than, or Syriac, I should say, right?
00:37:37.720 That's the liturgy.
00:37:38.320 But, but that made more sense to me because of its stability than every other week going back to a, and you had, it's so unfortunate because we, there was no leadership.
00:37:50.420 You see, the leadership was in flux and there were no real norms.
00:37:55.960 They were still being created.
00:37:57.820 So everyone felt he was his own Pope.
00:38:02.000 This is the Protestant problem, right? 1.00
00:38:04.260 Everyone is his own Pope.
00:38:05.420 Well, we had this going on in our clergy.
00:38:07.280 And some of the younger priests already saw mass as theater.
00:38:14.780 Okay.
00:38:15.620 This was every, every, every week.
00:38:18.540 What can I invent for next Sunday to keep people's attention?
00:38:21.620 Well, why didn't you just stop and ask yourself for 2000 years?
00:38:26.200 How do we keep people's attention?
00:38:28.820 How was their attention kept?
00:38:31.060 It was kept by presenting them something solid in New York City.
00:38:36.800 In Hong Kong, in Tokyo, in Africa, in Asia.
00:38:41.900 It was the same.
00:38:43.700 Your father experiences too, traveling and speaking many languages.
00:38:48.380 The universality of the church.
00:38:50.180 It was just, it was fantastic.
00:38:51.680 It didn't matter where he went to mass.
00:38:53.140 It was the mass.
00:38:53.940 All of a sudden now, every experience was a new experience.
00:39:00.120 And not only was it new for a man who was traveling like your father internationally.
00:39:04.840 It was new for every parishioner who never left his hometown.
00:39:08.160 And it said, it said that what we considered, and most Catholics didn't consider, most Catholics
00:39:17.120 knew that there were certain things that were unchangeable.
00:39:22.920 Truth is unchangeable.
00:39:24.720 Truth is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow.
00:39:26.800 It's the same.
00:39:27.380 Christ said that, and St. Paul says that, our Lord Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
00:39:34.360 Because truth is, and he is the truth, right?
00:39:38.120 All of these things that were unchangeable are being changed.
00:39:45.180 Psychologically and spiritually, what this does to a people is, I don't know how you can measure it.
00:39:53.220 I really don't know how you can honestly measure it, but it's devastating, because it takes the certainty out of belief.
00:40:00.880 It's hard enough to believe, and especially when people really question their faith and come to struggle with it,
00:40:08.200 and they come to the conclusion that there is a God, that there is a church, that all of these things are true.
00:40:13.260 And then to pull the carpet out from under them, and say, rethink everything, and it's whatever you decide.
00:40:22.800 That's what the truth is.
00:40:25.840 Relativism, right?
00:40:26.900 Relativism, which is a major problem.
00:40:30.240 And outcome, again, not of the council.
00:40:34.220 The council didn't do that.
00:40:35.620 But the lack of direction, the lack of authority in the church, the lack of understanding what things were.
00:40:45.280 Everything had to change.
00:40:47.180 Nothing could be the same.
00:40:48.680 Why couldn't some things not change?
00:40:50.740 I couldn't see openness to discussing this or that or the other thing.
00:40:54.240 Fine.
00:40:55.180 But why did everything have to change?
00:40:57.220 One of the things that I remember Monsignor Schuller.
00:41:00.020 Later on, I discovered that I didn't have to become a Maronite.
00:41:02.900 But I could have remained a Catholic, a Roman, a Latin Catholic, let me put it that way.
00:41:08.380 But I didn't realize that in my own city of St. Paul, we had St. Agnes Parish.
00:41:14.180 And then later on, St. Augustine Parish, which was my parish, which became bastions of Orthodoxy.
00:41:19.680 They really did.
00:41:20.420 Fantastic.
00:41:21.240 If this is happening in my parish, my home parish, this is what's happening to everyone.
00:41:25.840 And everyone would come to school on Monday morning, and the Christian brothers would ask us,
00:41:30.500 what happened in your parish?
00:41:31.620 And you had to report these new things, because the newer, the better.
00:41:36.620 Novelty was the key.
00:41:38.860 You have to keep people's attention.
00:41:40.240 The mass stopped being, this is absolutely true, the mass stopped being the sacrifice of Calvary.
00:41:49.600 And began being a theater.
00:41:53.420 A theater.
00:41:54.640 It was entertainment.
00:41:57.940 Entertainment.
00:41:58.420 There was a Jesuit that I had in Rome, Father Navone, who I loved.
00:42:01.480 He was a great professor.
00:42:02.980 Brilliant mind.
00:42:04.480 He used to refer, and he was American.
00:42:06.980 He used to call the United States, though he had lived in Italy for 42 years or something.
00:42:12.180 He called the United States, the United States of entertainment.
00:42:15.060 Never the United States of America, of entertainment.
00:42:17.720 Everything is entertainment.
00:42:18.580 We follow the stars, we follow this.
00:42:20.720 And everything has to keep changing, and more outrageous, and more novel.
00:42:24.800 And this is where, this was our liturgy.
00:42:28.540 So we lost our liturgy.
00:42:30.140 Your father was right to be confused in this.
00:42:32.220 Everyone was confused.
00:42:33.240 And people who were very devout were the most confused. 0.93
00:42:37.460 Because they were told that their devotion was ridiculous.
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00:43:14.980 The parish that you mentioned, St. Agnes and the other,
00:43:19.180 were they still having the Latin Mass?
00:43:20.660 They didn't have the Latin Mass, but they...
00:43:22.380 I didn't realize that St. Agnes did.
00:43:24.700 St. Agnes never gave it up.
00:43:26.580 Even when they went into the Novus Ordo,
00:43:29.840 they had the Novus Ordo, but you wouldn't know it.
00:43:34.240 It was, everything was done in Latin.
00:43:37.300 And the priest still adorantum.
00:43:38.800 Adorantum, yes.
00:43:40.400 Oh, did you ever see St. Agnes Church?
00:43:43.320 No.
00:43:45.100 Monsignor Richard Schuller, one of my favorite people in life.
00:43:48.280 God reward him.
00:43:49.660 A great, great, great man.
00:43:51.100 Oh, there's so many stories I could tell you about.
00:43:52.780 His parish gave the greatest amount of vocations
00:43:55.200 in the Archdiocese of St. Paul.
00:43:58.380 And the Sarah Club used to give an award every year
00:44:01.280 for the parish with most vocations, priestly vocations.
00:44:03.800 Well, they gave it to him begrudgingly
00:44:07.300 because there's this old conservative man,
00:44:10.860 the old fogey, the old-fashioned man
00:44:13.940 who's getting these vocations.
00:44:16.160 He would have three, four men ordained every year
00:44:20.360 to the priesthood from his parish.
00:44:22.320 Wow.
00:44:22.500 And they gave him, he said, he put it this way,
00:44:27.480 he said, they used to give it, give this award
00:44:30.040 for the most vocations at a dinner.
00:44:32.100 They would organize a dinner.
00:44:33.180 The archbishop would be there at this event.
00:44:35.220 He said, by the end of 10 years,
00:44:38.140 the last time I received the reward
00:44:39.960 was in a paper bag in the hallway.
00:44:41.580 They didn't want to deal with it any longer.
00:44:47.440 But he was magnificent.
00:44:49.280 A nun was put in charge of the liturgy 1.00
00:44:51.320 for the Archdiocese of St. Paul.
00:44:54.000 Sister Mary Snowflake, I don't know what,
00:44:56.060 Sister Mary Relevant, whatever it was.
00:44:58.660 And she accused him, Monsignor, 0.74
00:45:01.640 if you can imagine, this is how ridiculous things came,
00:45:04.500 of not celebrating the Eucharist with sufficient joy.
00:45:07.840 It's true.
00:45:12.300 Well, his auntie joy was infectious, obviously.
00:45:15.220 Well, he threatened a lawsuit
00:45:16.680 because she had gone public with this.
00:45:19.260 And they backed down and she apologized,
00:45:22.100 which I've never heard happen again.
00:45:24.440 But he said, maybe we do need a renovation
00:45:27.640 in St. Agnes Church.
00:45:29.760 St. Agnes Church, structurally speaking,
00:45:31.860 is magnificent.
00:45:33.580 He said, maybe we do need a renovation of the church,
00:45:36.560 a physical renovation,
00:45:38.520 like every parish was renovating.
00:45:41.260 Well, his idea of a renovation was to put in marble
00:45:43.900 in the sanctuary
00:45:46.080 and this glorious, fantastic sunburst
00:45:50.840 in gold over the altar.
00:45:54.360 He put in an elevator also for the handicapped.
00:45:57.600 He did all of those things.
00:45:58.940 But he made the church even more spectacular.
00:46:02.620 People would stop in to make a visit
00:46:04.740 because it was, they were, it was the closest,
00:46:07.360 it was the antechamber to heaven.
00:46:09.600 It was just absolutely beautiful.
00:46:11.000 St. Agnes, if you ever get a chance to go to St. Paul,
00:46:13.520 it's a must.
00:46:14.520 And Monsignor Schuller also was an outstanding musician.
00:46:20.280 He directed his own choirs.
00:46:22.860 And he had the Minnesota Symphony Orchestra
00:46:25.820 every Sunday at mass doing the Bach mass,
00:46:32.420 doing the Gounod mass, doing a Mozart mass.
00:46:36.720 You couldn't believe it.
00:46:38.560 Full orchestration and two major choirs.
00:46:42.400 And church packed.
00:46:44.320 All they could do is ridicule his success.
00:46:47.140 They were out of arguments
00:46:49.060 because what he was doing was working.
00:46:50.660 They didn't want it to work.
00:46:53.420 Failure was the objective of the day.
00:46:56.980 Failure.
00:46:57.460 You were supposed to fail
00:46:58.400 because we should all be in crisis.
00:47:00.780 It's good to be in crisis.
00:47:02.020 It's good to question everything, to wonder.
00:47:04.640 No, he wasn't wondering.
00:47:06.060 He just kept believing.
00:47:07.220 This divide happened everywhere.
00:47:11.680 It happened everywhere.
00:47:12.760 And the mass was its instrument
00:47:15.800 because psychologically and spiritually
00:47:19.100 it penetrated people's belief.
00:47:22.960 How you, if it was,
00:47:24.720 there was never a clearer example
00:47:26.360 of how you praise, how you believe.
00:47:29.560 That happened.
00:47:31.440 People were devout.
00:47:33.560 They were less devout.
00:47:34.800 You would never walk into a Catholic church,
00:47:37.320 never anywhere in the world
00:47:38.620 where people are sitting in pews
00:47:40.460 talking and having coffee.
00:47:43.840 I remember giving a parish in Manhattan.
00:47:47.320 I walked in the first day as pastor
00:47:49.340 and I've got eight people in the back
00:47:52.020 having a coffee, with coffee
00:47:54.960 and coffee and cream and donuts
00:47:56.360 and everything in the back pews.
00:47:58.540 Just, and talking just like you and I
00:48:00.400 are talking right now.
00:48:01.860 Didn't happen.
00:48:03.260 You didn't speak out of reverence
00:48:04.660 for the Blessed Sacrament.
00:48:06.720 People genuflected.
00:48:08.920 You knew that you were in a sacred place.
00:48:11.740 The red lamp was always on.
00:48:14.020 You could see it represented Christ
00:48:15.900 in the Blessed Sacrament.
00:48:17.280 There was an awe.
00:48:18.200 There was a respect.
00:48:19.480 That all ended.
00:48:20.920 Did masses sort of restricted?
00:48:24.260 Certain places still have it
00:48:26.000 or they also weren't to have it?
00:48:29.080 All I can tell you is that
00:48:30.620 it was considered
00:48:32.120 the late 60s
00:48:35.860 and early 70s
00:48:37.440 a mortal sin
00:48:39.300 for a priest
00:48:41.720 without special permission
00:48:44.260 because of age.
00:48:45.800 He had to be 85 or something
00:48:47.140 to say the Tridentine Mass.
00:48:49.560 What?
00:48:50.000 Oh yes.
00:48:51.140 Yes, yes.
00:48:52.280 And it was a mortal sin
00:48:54.220 for people to go to
00:48:55.560 a Tridentine Mass.
00:48:58.200 There they knew how to use
00:49:00.380 moral theology.
00:49:02.120 In that they were good.
00:49:03.360 That was a mortal sin.
00:49:04.820 There was only one mortal sin
00:49:06.920 and that was really being Catholic
00:49:08.560 in a sense.
00:49:10.380 Okay, so that's where this comes from.
00:49:12.560 I've heard older people
00:49:14.200 say stuff like that.
00:49:16.500 And I was like,
00:49:17.120 where are they getting that from?
00:49:19.220 Where did that come from?
00:49:20.540 The progressives are a curious lot
00:49:22.300 because they begin
00:49:25.140 announcing freedom.
00:49:27.020 Freedom, freedom, liberty, freedom.
00:49:28.980 This is what we need.
00:49:30.060 And at the end,
00:49:32.200 they become tyrants,
00:49:34.520 dictators,
00:49:36.000 absolutists.
00:49:37.640 It's their way
00:49:38.600 or the highway,
00:49:39.500 literally.
00:49:40.000 I mean, not literally,
00:49:41.240 but figuratively,
00:49:42.240 you know what I'm saying.
00:49:42.880 This is it.
00:49:43.720 There is only one way to do it.
00:49:45.120 And if you're not doing it,
00:49:46.640 if you're not in lock and step
00:49:47.880 with us,
00:49:49.340 you're out. 0.76
00:49:51.020 You're shunned. 1.00
00:49:52.640 You're ridiculous. 1.00
00:49:53.560 Where is the inclusivity? 1.00
00:49:57.480 Where is the human joy?
00:50:00.020 Where is the Christian joy, 1.00
00:50:01.240 the love,
00:50:01.680 the compassion,
00:50:02.380 the sharing?
00:50:03.420 No, no, no.
00:50:04.300 That belongs just for us
00:50:05.580 within ourselves,
00:50:08.220 not for you.
00:50:10.080 So we had,
00:50:11.140 those masses were banned.
00:50:13.060 Suddenly,
00:50:14.240 I remember hearing
00:50:15.140 that
00:50:15.740 Father X
00:50:18.780 was celebrating
00:50:20.620 the Latin Mass,
00:50:25.000 but was under,
00:50:25.780 but was under,
00:50:26.820 it was under serious
00:50:27.680 consideration
00:50:28.240 for excommunication.
00:50:30.320 Right?
00:50:30.940 And everyone
00:50:31.360 who went to it,
00:50:32.700 they were,
00:50:33.000 they were,
00:50:33.500 they were serious
00:50:34.260 on this.
00:50:35.140 They,
00:50:35.740 they tried to stamp it out.
00:50:37.080 They couldn't,
00:50:38.300 they couldn't,
00:50:39.120 but they tried to.
00:50:40.040 And then,
00:50:41.500 you would have
00:50:42.100 these private chapels
00:50:43.540 that people started,
00:50:46.080 they began in garages,
00:50:47.680 and then they,
00:50:48.200 but then they became
00:50:49.040 small chapels,
00:50:50.520 and you can see
00:50:51.780 what happened
00:50:52.320 in,
00:50:52.720 in Kansas.
00:50:54.560 The basilica
00:50:55.680 that they built
00:50:56.220 to the Immaculate Conception,
00:50:57.600 which is awesome,
00:50:58.640 beautiful.
00:51:00.380 It began to grow,
00:51:02.780 but it began to grow
00:51:04.300 against every will
00:51:06.100 of the,
00:51:07.440 of the Catholic hierarchy,
00:51:09.060 the,
00:51:09.140 of officialdom.
00:51:11.020 We could have
00:51:11.820 any sort of Protestant
00:51:12.880 concelebrating,
00:51:14.040 if you will,
00:51:14.840 in,
00:51:15.000 in a,
00:51:15.320 in a sense of the word,
00:51:16.400 concelebrating
00:51:16.980 in liturgical affairs,
00:51:18.780 mixed marriages,
00:51:21.240 you would have a Protestant, 0.96
00:51:22.520 you would have a Presbyterian minister
00:51:24.020 and a Catholic priest,
00:51:25.120 and that,
00:51:25.620 that was all fine,
00:51:26.560 and hugs and kisses
00:51:27.920 and everything else.
00:51:29.300 You could not have a priest
00:51:30.900 who said the Latin Mass.
00:51:33.680 He was,
00:51:34.220 he was,
00:51:34.900 they,
00:51:35.460 no,
00:51:36.060 and then they were,
00:51:37.260 they're excommunicated,
00:51:38.360 they're living in mortal sin.
00:51:40.300 They were actually.
00:51:41.160 No,
00:51:41.460 no,
00:51:41.660 no,
00:51:41.920 but you heard this,
00:51:42.940 you heard this from everybody.
00:51:45.580 They excommunicated, 0.97
00:51:46.880 the liberals,
00:51:47.480 the progressives,
00:51:48.200 excommunicated everyone,
00:51:49.580 right?
00:51:50.440 You couldn't even coexist
00:51:51.760 with this.
00:51:52.860 it's sort of like having
00:51:54.320 politically an opinion
00:51:55.940 that's not mine.
00:51:57.940 Mine is right.
00:51:59.060 My opinion is right
00:51:59.940 on everything.
00:52:00.720 You don't have that,
00:52:01.760 so you're wrong.
00:52:03.880 No,
00:52:04.140 no,
00:52:04.380 no,
00:52:04.500 no.
00:52:05.040 There was a time
00:52:05.840 when I'd sit down
00:52:06.560 and dialogue with you
00:52:07.680 to get you onto my side,
00:52:09.180 but when I finally realized
00:52:10.440 I'm not going to get you
00:52:11.860 to agree with me,
00:52:13.480 you're out.
00:52:15.420 This then changes
00:52:16.960 under John Paul II.
00:52:19.540 John Paul II
00:52:20.320 first grants a.
00:52:21.800 John Paul II
00:52:22.480 was a,
00:52:24.100 look,
00:52:25.060 don't forget this.
00:52:26.680 When the Vatican Council
00:52:27.880 was announced,
00:52:28.620 1962 to 65,
00:52:32.060 everyone
00:52:32.640 was excited.
00:52:37.160 Everyone.
00:52:38.680 There weren't liberals
00:52:39.400 and conservatives.
00:52:40.260 The whole Catholic world
00:52:41.640 was excited.
00:52:42.580 The non-Catholic world 1.00
00:52:43.740 was excited.
00:52:44.960 This was going to be
00:52:45.980 magnificent.
00:52:47.360 Finally,
00:52:47.800 we were going to free,
00:52:48.960 we were going to liberate
00:52:49.980 the Holy Ghost
00:52:50.780 who had been chained
00:52:53.280 somewhere along
00:52:54.120 with a Bible
00:52:54.720 somewhere under chained
00:52:56.900 in lock and key,
00:52:57.760 but now he's going
00:52:58.820 to be liberated.
00:52:59.740 Everything was going
00:53:00.620 to change and it was
00:53:01.340 going to be fantastic.
00:53:03.680 Our biggest problem
00:53:05.040 was going to be
00:53:05.860 construction.
00:53:08.980 Where could we add
00:53:10.120 on a wing to the church
00:53:11.300 to hold all these
00:53:12.300 new converts
00:53:13.320 who are going to come in?
00:53:14.520 Our schools are going
00:53:15.680 to have to be bigger.
00:53:16.900 We need more,
00:53:17.740 we need more classroom.
00:53:19.440 And that was serious.
00:53:20.620 Oh, absolutely.
00:53:22.240 This is serious.
00:53:23.280 Yes.
00:53:23.860 We were going to have
00:53:24.900 an influx of souls
00:53:26.700 like you couldn't believe.
00:53:28.140 Pope John the 23rd,
00:53:29.300 he died during the council.
00:53:30.780 So it was maybe,
00:53:31.760 maybe 63, 64, whatever.
00:53:34.420 There were 3,000 Lutherans
00:53:36.740 from Germany
00:53:37.800 who wanted to enter
00:53:39.020 the Catholic Church.
00:53:40.200 During the council,
00:53:41.700 they were already seeing
00:53:42.980 that they were wrong
00:53:45.360 on a lot of issues,
00:53:46.440 that the church was right
00:53:47.380 on a lot of issues,
00:53:48.260 maybe not everything,
00:53:49.520 they asked.
00:53:50.280 He said, no.
00:53:52.100 He said, no.
00:53:52.740 Wait.
00:53:54.200 Wait.
00:53:56.580 Paul VI had the same thing
00:53:58.200 of groups of people
00:53:59.400 who wanted to enter
00:54:00.180 the Catholic Church.
00:54:01.260 The English,
00:54:02.680 the Anglicans,
00:54:04.520 this was not new
00:54:05.780 that just one day
00:54:06.540 they woke up
00:54:07.060 and wanted to become Catholic.
00:54:08.640 They had been petitioning
00:54:10.840 and they wanted to
00:54:11.600 start this for you.
00:54:12.800 No, no, no.
00:54:13.240 Wait.
00:54:14.100 All of you will enter.
00:54:16.180 All of you.
00:54:16.980 All Anglicans
00:54:18.400 will become Catholic one day.
00:54:20.220 All Lutherans
00:54:21.100 will just become Catholic one day.
00:54:22.860 We're growing nearer
00:54:24.140 to each other, right?
00:54:25.740 So they didn't want this.
00:54:27.080 They didn't want groups
00:54:27.860 becoming Catholic.
00:54:29.060 They shunned that idea.
00:54:31.400 What they wanted
00:54:31.980 was the conversion of everyone.
00:54:34.100 Now, how do you do that?
00:54:35.420 How do you get
00:54:35.780 the conversion of everyone?
00:54:37.300 Well, you have to stand
00:54:38.180 for nothing.
00:54:39.780 So you said this was
00:54:41.180 Paul VI
00:54:42.220 and John XXIII.
00:54:43.440 John XXIII
00:54:44.140 during the council
00:54:45.020 and Paul VI later.
00:54:46.280 Yes.
00:54:46.940 They didn't want
00:54:47.640 these groups of people
00:54:48.920 to convert.
00:54:51.760 It wasn't the idea
00:54:52.660 of a conversion.
00:54:53.780 We would all get together
00:54:55.380 somehow magically
00:54:56.420 down the road
00:54:57.640 and we would just be one.
00:55:00.180 You see?
00:55:00.920 So that's really stunning
00:55:02.260 because when I heard
00:55:03.140 that Bergoglio
00:55:03.820 had done that
00:55:04.520 with his Lutheran
00:55:05.360 pastor friend
00:55:06.020 who wanted so much
00:55:06.960 to become Catholic...
00:55:07.420 There you go.
00:55:08.060 And then he died, right?
00:55:08.900 He died young.
00:55:09.780 This Lutheran pastor guy
00:55:10.900 died young.
00:55:11.620 And I was heartbroken
00:55:12.440 for him because I said,
00:55:13.880 this is insane.
00:55:17.080 Like,
00:55:17.800 he's literally
00:55:18.620 wanting to become Catholic
00:55:19.880 and the Pope
00:55:21.000 is telling him no.
00:55:22.440 But this actually
00:55:23.200 goes back...
00:55:24.320 Oh, yes.
00:55:25.360 Yes.
00:55:26.020 To John XXIII.
00:55:27.200 There was a call to...
00:55:30.500 We're Catholics, right?
00:55:31.880 And Catholic means universal.
00:55:33.380 We understand that.
00:55:34.680 Well, there was a real call
00:55:35.820 to universality.
00:55:37.960 We wanted the conversion
00:55:39.160 of everyone.
00:55:40.920 Everyone could be Catholic.
00:55:42.580 Everyone should be part
00:55:43.540 of the church.
00:55:44.080 As a matter of fact,
00:55:44.740 there were theologians
00:55:45.600 who contended that
00:55:46.760 everyone was part
00:55:47.780 of the church.
00:55:48.840 They just didn't know it.
00:55:50.860 You know,
00:55:51.080 they're over here,
00:55:51.900 they're over there,
00:55:52.460 they're on the periphery,
00:55:53.700 as we say.
00:55:54.440 But they really are Catholic.
00:55:55.880 They just don't know it.
00:55:57.680 No, they weren't Catholic
00:55:59.580 and they knew it.
00:56:00.260 Right?
00:56:01.300 But this was going to be
00:56:02.920 this all-encompassing religion. 0.99
00:56:05.420 This was going to be
00:56:07.060 a new religion.
00:56:08.020 Nobody said it at that time.
00:56:09.760 But now they're saying it.
00:56:11.540 The new church,
00:56:12.480 the new religion.
00:56:14.060 A new religion.
00:56:15.700 When I hear the words synod,
00:56:18.920 I understand what a real synod is.
00:56:22.100 When I hear synodality
00:56:23.720 and the synodal church,
00:56:26.620 this is the new religion.
00:56:30.020 It's frightening.
00:56:31.560 But we've come...
00:56:32.200 This is what...
00:56:32.740 They want everyone.
00:56:34.320 They don't want a group.
00:56:35.160 They don't want people...
00:56:36.160 And they certainly don't want people
00:56:37.460 who are convinced
00:56:38.220 of the truth of Catholicism.
00:56:40.240 They don't want that.
00:56:42.020 As a matter of fact,
00:56:42.700 we're trying to diminish
00:56:43.620 the people we've got
00:56:44.520 who believe in Catholicism.
00:56:47.800 It's...
00:56:48.600 It is amazing.
00:56:50.080 It is amazing.
00:56:51.040 It is amazing.
00:56:51.680 And yet,
00:56:53.020 as Galileo said,
00:56:54.420 and yet it turns.
00:56:55.960 And yet it continues.
00:56:57.120 It's amazing.
00:56:57.720 That's even more amazing.
00:56:59.100 That the church continues,
00:57:00.480 continues.
00:57:01.840 I'm confused, Father,
00:57:03.040 because my...
00:57:04.200 John XXIII,
00:57:06.260 that goes back a long ways.
00:57:08.180 John XXIII was elected
00:57:10.060 after the death of Pius XII.
00:57:11.580 It was 1958.
00:57:12.900 Sure.
00:57:13.700 But how could he be
00:57:15.420 so non-Catholic?
00:57:16.460 I'm sorry to say it that way.
00:57:18.300 Like,
00:57:18.820 a group of people
00:57:19.580 want to come join the church
00:57:20.780 and you tell them no.
00:57:24.040 And did he still believe
00:57:26.120 extra-eclaseum nulla salas?
00:57:28.240 Like,
00:57:28.840 outside the church
00:57:29.600 there's no salvation?
00:57:30.320 Well,
00:57:30.800 see,
00:57:31.200 this is exactly it.
00:57:32.820 You have this dogma
00:57:33.940 outside the church
00:57:34.780 there is no salvation.
00:57:36.620 Now,
00:57:37.100 that seems pretty clear
00:57:38.140 to you
00:57:38.700 and to me,
00:57:39.400 doesn't it?
00:57:39.960 Right?
00:57:41.340 All of a sudden
00:57:42.140 it wasn't clear.
00:57:44.600 All of a sudden
00:57:45.400 it wasn't clear.
00:57:47.280 We can go back
00:57:47.960 historically
00:57:48.440 in the United States
00:57:49.240 at least
00:57:49.620 to Father Feeney.
00:57:51.080 They made a heretic 1.00
00:57:52.180 out of him.
00:57:53.040 It was no more
00:57:53.580 a heretic than anyone. 0.99
00:57:54.960 This is ridiculous. 0.98
00:57:56.260 But they made 0.97
00:57:57.140 a cause out of him.
00:57:58.580 The American clergy.
00:57:59.780 Because already,
00:58:01.060 and this is before
00:58:01.800 the council,
00:58:03.140 they didn't want
00:58:04.200 the idea
00:58:05.840 that you had to be,
00:58:06.880 that they didn't like
00:58:07.860 the idea
00:58:08.280 that the Catholic Church
00:58:09.360 possessed the truth.
00:58:12.580 They started talking about,
00:58:14.140 well, no,
00:58:14.600 the Lutherans
00:58:15.180 possess part of the truth
00:58:16.900 and the these
00:58:18.280 possess part of the truth
00:58:19.520 and the Anglicans
00:58:20.440 and the Jews
00:58:21.820 and the Muslims
00:58:22.920 and we all possess
00:58:24.080 parts of the truth,
00:58:24.980 you see.
00:58:26.260 Yeah,
00:58:26.880 they're all true.
00:58:27.960 Well,
00:58:28.140 this is the idea
00:58:29.500 of ecumenism
00:58:30.220 where we were saying
00:58:31.600 before,
00:58:32.260 the Catholic Church
00:58:33.180 possesses
00:58:34.060 all the truth
00:58:35.180 that you need.
00:58:36.660 It doesn't contain
00:58:37.660 all the truth
00:58:38.760 in the world.
00:58:39.840 Only God contains
00:58:40.940 all the truth.
00:58:41.700 But the Church
00:58:42.600 contains all the truth
00:58:44.020 that you
00:58:44.640 and any other human being
00:58:46.140 ever conceived
00:58:46.980 and born of a woman
00:58:48.020 needs for salvation.
00:58:51.400 You need nothing more
00:58:52.600 than what the Catholic Church
00:58:53.660 has.
00:58:54.020 That is all the truth.
00:58:55.120 All of a sudden
00:58:55.960 it was open.
00:58:56.880 It was an open question.
00:58:58.140 Well,
00:58:58.300 these have part
00:58:59.240 of the truth too
00:59:00.000 and these a little bit
00:59:01.320 and the Orthodox
00:59:02.000 have part of the truth.
00:59:03.460 It was this sharing thing
00:59:04.900 to become universal.
00:59:06.980 It was an openness.
00:59:08.920 Everyone was to get together.
00:59:10.560 We were supposed
00:59:11.000 to have one big hootenanny
00:59:12.620 as the big word
00:59:14.300 in the 1960s was
00:59:15.740 and just this was
00:59:17.120 all going to happen
00:59:18.000 and it was going to happen
00:59:18.960 by the Holy Ghost.
00:59:20.400 By the Holy Spirit
00:59:21.300 Himself was going to work
00:59:23.460 and work His magic.
00:59:26.080 Well,
00:59:26.340 that's not how
00:59:26.820 the Holy Ghost
00:59:27.480 that I know works.
00:59:29.880 But this was it.
00:59:32.040 And in all of this confusion
00:59:33.360 if you brought up
00:59:34.440 something that sounds
00:59:35.340 sensible even today
00:59:36.800 to us
00:59:37.360 you were mocked.
00:59:39.580 Mocked,
00:59:40.020 mocked,
00:59:40.340 mocked.
00:59:41.060 And these people
00:59:42.600 held all the property.
00:59:44.620 They owned your church.
00:59:46.560 The building,
00:59:47.820 the schools,
00:59:49.240 the hospitals,
00:59:50.400 they owned everything.
00:59:52.040 So they must be right
00:59:53.540 somehow.
00:59:54.820 And of course,
00:59:56.040 they're saying
00:59:56.760 you can't go that direction.
00:59:58.480 You can go this direction
00:59:59.560 with us
01:00:00.360 and this direction
01:00:02.000 is full of directions.
01:00:04.420 But you can't go
01:00:05.940 that way.
01:00:07.160 It's sort of like
01:00:08.440 something that happened
01:00:10.240 in Eden
01:00:10.780 many years before
01:00:12.300 all this.
01:00:14.180 Any tree you wish.
01:00:16.800 Any tree you wish.
01:00:17.520 just not that one.
01:00:19.940 Well, of course,
01:00:20.500 where are we going
01:00:21.120 to that one?
01:00:22.440 Right?
01:00:23.020 But
01:00:23.280 it's a negative
01:00:24.680 to explain a positive.
01:00:27.680 But
01:00:27.800 everything was acceptable
01:00:30.520 except
01:00:31.220 the
01:00:32.200 one way
01:00:33.320 the way that people knew
01:00:34.520 and respected.
01:00:36.180 Actually,
01:00:36.660 it's the reversal
01:00:37.920 of
01:00:38.840 paradise.
01:00:40.580 It's actually
01:00:41.140 the exact opposite.
01:00:42.980 Yes.
01:00:43.900 But what I'm saying
01:00:45.540 is
01:00:45.820 it's to the exclusion.
01:00:47.760 Everything is possible
01:00:49.040 except that.
01:00:50.520 Right?
01:00:50.720 Except that.
01:00:51.800 And
01:00:51.900 it's not exactly that
01:00:53.880 because
01:00:54.500 you
01:00:55.400 keep in mind
01:00:56.640 that
01:00:57.840 everything that's evil
01:00:59.420 is always presented
01:01:01.480 as good.
01:01:03.180 Yeah.
01:01:04.540 It's always presented
01:01:05.820 prima facie
01:01:07.080 as good.
01:01:07.900 This is a good thing
01:01:08.860 you want.
01:01:09.880 No,
01:01:10.300 it's not good.
01:01:10.920 It's disguised
01:01:11.720 as good.
01:01:12.920 Fruit looks
01:01:13.740 delicious and good
01:01:14.780 until you bite into it
01:01:16.120 and find it's rotten.
01:01:17.120 Right?
01:01:17.840 Well,
01:01:18.180 you've got this going on.
01:01:19.340 But everything
01:01:20.320 was acceptable
01:01:21.160 except
01:01:21.800 that.
01:01:23.480 Except that.
01:01:25.020 And you had
01:01:25.720 everybody online
01:01:26.460 and now you've got
01:01:27.100 a new
01:01:27.620 group of bishops,
01:01:30.100 new pastors
01:01:30.660 all over the church
01:01:31.600 in every country
01:01:32.540 in the world
01:01:33.040 who are
01:01:34.760 discarding
01:01:36.220 pre-Vatican II
01:01:39.240 anything.
01:01:42.040 And there was
01:01:42.860 a lot of chaos.
01:01:43.820 Of course,
01:01:44.300 we lost vocations.
01:01:46.380 It's resulted
01:01:47.220 in closing parishes,
01:01:48.860 hundreds,
01:01:49.560 thousands of parishes
01:01:50.460 everywhere.
01:01:51.780 People who don't
01:01:52.800 know their faith,
01:01:53.840 they know nothing
01:01:54.780 about their faith.
01:01:56.060 Nothing.
01:01:56.940 I've actually
01:01:57.780 sat down with
01:01:58.620 educated people,
01:02:00.720 educated Catholics,
01:02:02.040 Catholic baptized,
01:02:03.040 who didn't really
01:02:04.800 understand that
01:02:05.500 there were three
01:02:05.980 persons in God.
01:02:09.580 That just didn't,
01:02:10.960 oh, that's what
01:02:11.660 that is.
01:02:12.440 That's what the
01:02:13.020 Trinity is.
01:02:13.960 Yeah, that's the
01:02:14.900 Trinity.
01:02:15.320 You went to Harvard?
01:02:17.260 Yeah.
01:02:17.720 Well, maybe that's why.
01:02:19.520 But I mean,
01:02:20.580 yes, we lost a lot.
01:02:21.780 But I mean,
01:02:21.840 yes, we lost a lot.
01:02:26.860 Hi, I'm Liz Yore.
01:02:28.640 I'm really urging
01:02:29.680 all the audience
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