Varro and Helena are a Catholic couple from Estonia with seven children who are probably 1 in a million people. How did they come to such a vibrant faith? What does it mean to have seven children in a country where there are only 4,000 Catholics in a population of 1.2 million people? And how do they keep up with it all?
00:02:26.560Helena has been studying philology, Estonian philology, and has been teaching in the school also moral philosophy.
00:02:36.120I myself worked in the university for a number of years teaching the philosophy of law.
00:02:40.480But now, for the past three years, I've only been working for our foundation, which is about defending Catholic or natural law principles in the society.
00:04:44.700But, well, we weren't born into a Catholic family.
00:04:49.920Out of our generation, almost no one was born into a Catholic family.
00:04:54.280And that's really striking, I think, to many people.
00:04:56.580It has been striking to ourselves to realize this, that in our generation, almost no one was born into a Catholic family.
00:05:03.620So at the end of the 80s, at the end of the time of communism, there were hardly any Estonian families in the Catholic Church.
00:05:12.540The Catholic Church in Estonia was referred to as the Polish Church.
00:05:16.240So only old Polish ladies went to the Catholic Church, really.
00:05:20.440And it was only at the beginning of the 80s, end of the 70s, beginning of the 80s, that the first Estonian young Catholics, young people, started converting to the Catholic faith.
00:05:33.180Through music, mostly, yes. Medieval, old music.
00:05:36.640And it was my godfather, Taivo Niitvägi, who was a friend of my mother also.
00:05:44.820And due to his conversion, my mother also converted to the Catholic faith.
00:05:49.380So although I was baptized in the Lutheran Church, my mother took me to the Catholic Church before I knew myself, really.
00:05:57.040So as far as I can remember, I've always been a member of the Catholic Church, which is a great blessing, of course.
00:06:02.040But the story of Helena's conversion is quite different.
00:06:05.500Well, I would like to come back to this conversion for music.
00:06:09.580This godfather, Taivo, who's actually like a spiritual godfather for me also.
00:06:14.720He actually, he was studying in the music academy in Estonia, as was the Soviet times.
00:06:21.040And they were taught that there was no music, basically, like no serious music before Bach.
00:06:26.480So, and then there was this one professor who said, come to my place and I will speak to you.
00:06:32.920I will tell you what there was before Bach.
00:06:35.200So, basically, we can thank this one man who told them that there was religious music, masses being written, and explain it all.
00:06:44.420So, he converted, basically, through music and took us all along.
00:06:51.980But my conversion story is actually through, it's strongly connected to Varo's mother, Kerstinigesen, who is kind of, what should I say, like an educational guru in Estonia, kind of.
00:07:07.800But she has established this Christian school and along with a small Catholic private school.
00:07:15.200And we were the first generation there.
00:07:18.840So, she basically decided that she will not send her son to the Soviet school system in the 80s.
00:07:27.160And she and a few other Catholic friends, Taiva Nitvägi, again, and a few more, they came together and they started discussing, like, how should it be, what should it be like.
00:09:28.160Well, I was baptized as a Lutheran, but what people, again, probably don't understand is that
00:09:32.840after 500 years of Protestantism and 50 years of communism, you are born into a completely broken society.
00:09:39.820And it is really sad, and even many people who have converted to the Catholic faith, they realize that it is actually tragic, the situation we are in and where we are coming from.
00:09:49.920So, I mean, we ourselves are part of it.
00:09:53.880We are, in a way, products of this brokenness, in the sense that my mother was married before she married to my father.
00:10:03.200My father was married before, so they are both, so to say, married for the second time.
00:10:07.680So, and although my mother converted to the Catholic Church, Catholic faith already in the 80s, she has been going to the Catholic Church for 30 years without receiving communion once and repenting, you know, the mistakes she has made before converting to Catholicism.
00:10:23.920And for me, this has always been a great source of inspiration and respect, because what we see among the modernists and the liberals is that they want the church to change because they have made mistakes in life and they want their mistakes to be accommodated into the church.
00:10:39.600So, the faith has to be changed in order for you to feel better in the church.
00:10:44.840But my mother is exactly the, I mean, an example of the exact opposite mindset and attitude, you know.
00:10:51.440She knows that mistakes are mistakes, and it's not the church that needs to change, it's yourself who needs to repent and change.
00:11:01.200So, this, for me, has been always a very, very impressive and very humbling lesson, I think.
00:11:08.540Yeah, I would like to add that she's praying a daily rosary, you know, she's living a Catholic life as far as she can.
00:11:16.980I really think she's a very holy woman, so she's really a good source of inspiration to many.
00:11:22.640Yeah, indeed, she's now babysitting our five children at home, although she's actually still the leader of the school and the small St. Michael's school.
00:11:33.320Incredible examples that bring you to faith.
00:11:35.720Now, with a large family, you've been struggling to live the Catholic life in Estonia, where this is very difficult.
00:11:42.580No community, really, at least if you're own age, we're in the same sort of similar situation.
00:11:47.400And yet, you're a great fighter for Estonia, for the faith in Estonia.
00:11:56.420We're going to show a clip of that, but why don't you tell us about your show?
00:12:01.020Well, yes, I mean, we have been very much inspired by LifeSite in what we do in Estonia.
00:12:05.820So, you know, we could say that we have a small, small LifeSite operated in Estonia, of course, under a completely different banner.
00:12:13.300But I think you have been really a big source of inspiration for us in what we do in Estonia.
00:12:18.120So, just to get, just to give truth a podium, you know, just to have at least one medium where Catholic principles, Christian principles,
00:12:29.040and natural law principles could be defended and promoted openly without reservations and without any sense of, I don't know, embarrassment or sort of insecurity.
00:12:42.400So, to a large extent, what we do is similar to what you do, with a difference, of course, that we operate in a society which is completely not Catholic.
00:12:53.880So, we have to be able to somehow speak the language of which the society understands.
00:12:59.660And although we never, of course, hide the fact that we are Catholics, we have to be able to present our arguments in ways which cannot be refuted by those who don't share our belief system also.
00:13:10.980So, yes, the portal we run is called Objective.
00:13:15.820We have news, we have commentaries, and we also put a lot of emphasis to producing video material just to discuss temporary problems from the Catholic and Christian and natural law perspective.
00:13:30.660So, that's what we do on a constant basis.
00:13:34.380Now, I found it very interesting that you've recently garnered some political attention.
00:13:41.420If you would tell the story about the, was it a minister or politician coming to your studio, so-called studio, and describe your studio, if you will.
00:13:49.780So, I think it's really inspirational because a lot of people are trying or thinking about doing some little effort that's able to get out there, and your little effort really has affected your country right now.
00:14:04.580Yes, I think it's safe to say that our portal has become the main conservative Christian media outlet in Estonia.
00:14:12.900So, with the little resources we have had, we've managed to do quite a lot, and the story you referred to, yes, it was somewhat funny in the sense that I invited the minister of foreign affairs to our studio to have an interview with him.
00:14:27.180And, yes, I've known him for years, and we got along well, so he came to the studio, he had never been there, and then he walked into the room, and he looked around, and he asked me quite honestly,
00:14:39.000and that's it, that's all you have? I said, well, yes, that's all we have.
00:14:43.560So, in a way, the story is inspirational in the sense that very often you can do very much with very little resources when your aims are correct.
00:14:54.760It looks so impressive. I have to tell you, a lot of what we're doing was inspired by you.
00:15:00.060I mean, when we saw what you guys were doing, and you described it to me, I thought, whoa, that's incredible.
00:15:05.420So, it was, anyway, it's a real blessing, and I can't understand a thing of what you're saying on your show, of course, because it's all in Estonian, but it certainly looks amazing.
00:15:17.100Let's talk about the, why you're here now. So, you brought a couple of your kids to Rome. Why did you come, and really, what was the Acces Ordinata about for you?
00:15:30.940Well, the Acces Ordinata, first of all, was about the profession of our faith. I think, first of all, that's what it was.
00:15:41.700It was a public profession of fidelity to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, to the tradition of the Catholic Church, and to the majesty of the Catholic Church.
00:15:51.260So, that was the main reason we came here. It was also the main reason why my best friend and colleague, Markus Järvi, just traveled here for the Acces Ordinata,
00:16:01.380is to stand there with our friends, with our allies, and to give testimony of the fidelity to the tradition and the doctrine of the Church.
00:16:11.900So, in this time of great confusion, of this time where errors are really spreading, not only in the world, but also in the Church,
00:16:20.680I think it is quite obvious to many people now it's no secret anymore, and we shouldn't actually be afraid to say it openly and loudly.
00:16:30.960It is very important for us to not only in our hearts and in our spirit to be faithful, but also publicly show that we are not afraid to say,
00:16:43.740even against a lot of hostility, that we will not give up our fidelity to what we know to be the truth,
00:16:51.400which is, of course, the central pillar of the Catholic Church.
00:17:52.120As we discussed before, a couple of nights before, that Rome is actually a huge part of our family life.
00:18:01.740Thirteen years ago, when we first came to Rome, it was actually the beginning of kind of a conversion or reversion.
00:18:12.740We're taking our faith more seriously, walking on the same streets where Peter and Paul did, visiting the catacombs.
00:18:20.760And we were, back then, we were expecting our second child, our son, and he's in Rome with us now, so we kind of had this reunion.
00:18:30.720And also, he met his, like, main ally and friend and colleague, Marcus Jarvi, whom he mentioned, they met, they actually met in Rome.
00:18:41.640Back then, he was studying to become a priest, he was in the seminary in Rome, and we, I knew him, kind of, I've heard, I had heard that he's studying here.
00:18:50.040So we arranged a meeting with him, and we actually met on St. Peter's Square for the first time.
00:18:56.760And he took us to St. Peter's, to visit St. Peter's home, go to Mass in Vatican.
00:19:06.140We climbed the Skala Sancta also together.
00:19:08.800Yeah, I can add that it's actually really a wonderful story that my best friend and my closest ally in Estonia, with whom we have built up our foundation and our portal also,
00:19:17.360So, it is true that although we are both from Estonia, we met for the first time on St. Peter's Square, early in the morning, 6.30, I think, before entering the Basilica.
00:19:29.120And when we walked the streets of Strastevere, I remember us discussing that we really need to start doing something in Estonia also to defend our ideals, to defend the ideals of our Catholic faith and so on.
00:19:42.200But it was only years later, when he came back to Estonia, having realized that he didn't have the priestly vocation, after all, that we started collaborating and really building up the counter-revolutionary movement in Estonia.
00:19:56.820So, it was an interesting and beautiful story, I think.
00:20:00.120There's actually this, this one moment, we were kind of like all the three of us, we were revisiting all those moments that we had together and I kind of remember all of it, all of it.
00:20:10.140And we were just discussing with Marcus, when we had the seven churches pilgrimage, on this street, you said this and that, you said, on these streets, St. Peter and Paul, they walked, you can touch the stones, you see.
00:20:21.180And then we visited his seminary and under the seminary, there was this basement, where they had kind of exposed the original street level.
00:20:33.180And he said, you can touch it, it's probably the stones that they actually walked on, you know, it's like three meters below now.
00:20:39.720And I remember that moment was it, like, okay, this is it, this is the faith, it's here, it's here, it's in Rome, I can now touch it.
00:20:48.140I've been, you know, believing, blessed are those who believe and they don't see it, right?
00:20:52.100I'm here now, I see it now, kind of like eyes opening.
00:20:55.760And I remember we discussed that it's like, you know, St. Thomas sticking the finger in our Lord's side.
00:21:01.540And this time, it was quite symbolic, actually, that we went to the church to actually see the finger that touched our Lord's side.
00:21:13.660So, it was kind of like closing the story.
00:21:17.200And it's also interesting in the sense that, yes, about four months later, four, three months later, our son was born in August, in the month of August, his name is also August, after St. Augustine.
00:21:33.040And when I really had the moment where I had sort of a conversion of heart, in the sense that I was holding him in my lap after he was born, the doctors were still taking care of you.
00:21:48.100I was walking in the corridor, and all of a sudden I realized that now something really needs to be done.
00:21:53.980I had tears in my eyes, I remember, because I understood that while I'm walking here in this corridor with holding my son in my lap, perhaps some other children are being killed one floor below.
00:22:05.000Because in Estonia, it's a sad situation that you don't have a single hospital where you could go to give birth to your child where they wouldn't also perform abortions.
00:22:15.920So, absolutely all the sort of, we call them birth houses, it's probably not the correct English expression, but maternity wards, yes, are also the centers of abortion.
00:22:26.300So, at least that's much better in the United States, as I understand, that you have abortion clinics separately, that you don't actually go to an abortion clinic.
00:22:36.220So, this was a horrible realization for me, and I really remember that.
00:22:41.020That's when I was decided that, okay, we really need to do something about the situation in Estonia, too.
00:22:47.160I think it was, like, simultaneously with this story of coming to Rome and actually realizing that we had to take our faith really seriously, and our son being born.
00:22:58.900I also had, like, problems with my father, actually, who's now married for the fourth time, married.
00:23:06.140Yeah, so I was, and I'm still working on it, like, how to kind of convert him.
00:23:11.900He's kind of like a living proof of this Soviet legacy.
00:23:22.220So, I went to our bishop, who's a faithful man, in a way, and I asked, what can I do?
00:23:28.760And he said, start reading so that you can defend your faith, because we had these huge arguments with my father, you know.
00:23:34.260And I could say, oh, well, that's what I believe anyway.
00:23:38.800Anyway, so he gave two names in the beginning.
00:23:42.940It's like, you have to start somewhere.
00:23:44.980So, it's maybe G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy, and C.S. Lewis.
00:23:51.200He gave us two names, and then we started ordering books.
00:23:55.900And I remember, for a while, we were living in Finland, and there are those little holes in the door for which they post, you know, letters and small parcels.
00:24:17.180But now we have a huge library of classical Catholic literature.
00:24:20.560And we have been ordering all those from, you know, the United States and the U.K. because, you know, we don't have Estonian classical Catholic literature.
00:24:36.680So, you've been sort of a heroic Catholic family in a time when it's difficult to be a Catholic family.
00:24:46.300But I remember, you know, growing up and having our kids, we're a little bit older than you, and we still got some young ones.
00:24:55.400But when our top kids now who are in their 20s were young, we had, yes, some issues with our, you know, priests, sometimes bishops, and so on in Canada,
00:25:06.920who weren't necessarily all that supportive of pro-life, who might not even have been all that supportive of large families.
00:25:30.640When LifeSite started, it was always, well, your priest or your bishop might not agree, but the Pope's got your back.
00:25:39.260You've had a very similar experience, at least vis-a-vis Benedict and now Pope Francis.
00:25:49.560You can describe a little bit of that, both from a family perspective, but also from your ministry or from your apostolate.
00:25:55.700But what, you know, what it's been like, I don't know if you were already running your apostolate before Pope Francis came in or what that was doing,
00:26:04.080but did you notice an effect, a change from one to the other, or has it basically been fairly similar?
00:26:11.260No, no, of course we noticed the differences, because the differences have been huge.
00:26:15.380And sometimes people say that perhaps it wasn't so clear from the very beginning when Pope Francis took the office.
00:26:22.200But for us, it was, for me personally, it was very, very clear from the very beginning.
00:26:28.620Because I remember the day when it was announced that Pope Francis was elected as the Pope.
00:26:34.440And I had just one of my friends visiting Estonia, a friend of mine who is from South America.
00:26:41.440And he's a very joyful person, like a sunshine, you know, always shining, always happy, very talkative, very good person, really.
00:26:53.360He was visiting us and he fell apart, basically.
00:26:56.260The man was basically devastated when he heard that Cardinal Bergoglio had been elected as the Pope.
00:27:03.420And although I knew nothing about the man, really, I mean, I didn't know about all those plans of making him the Pope already before Cardinal Ratzinger was elected as the Pope and so on.
00:27:15.440So, for me, it was a completely new name.
00:27:18.280But I already saw that, okay, if he's so devastated by the news, then we must have a serious problem waiting for us.
00:27:27.020And, of course, he told that, well, I come from Latin America, I've lived in Brazil for a number of years, I know exactly who the man is.
00:27:35.840I've followed church politics in Brazil, in Argentina, all the other countries.
00:28:09.700Well, he visited Estonia, yes, that's true.
00:28:12.320Also, we went to his mass on the Rathaus Square in Tallinn at the very heart of the old town.
00:28:20.820And also, we translated and published in Estonia his Evangelium Vitae, which was such a big source of inspiration for us.
00:28:28.460You know, I can remember much of it by heart.
00:28:32.740You know, not literally, I cannot quote it, but I know what passage talks about what.
00:28:36.780And I've read it so many times, I've quoted it so many times in my lectures, in my writings, everywhere.
00:28:42.440And, you know, the way he speaks to bishops, for example, that you, bishops, are obliged to be relentless defenders of life, of the family, of everything.
00:28:52.900You know, it was just so beautiful that at the heart of his attention was always innocent human life and family.
00:29:00.700You know, it was the absolute core of his mission as the Pope.
00:29:05.380And now, when we look at the difference, what we are seeing, comparing this period to the present day, then we see that it's the opposite, really.
00:29:13.360You know, we can see all kinds of processes in the Church which are aimed against the Church and family.
00:29:19.960You know, James Martin and, you know, continuing with the rest of the crowd.
00:29:23.980But when was the last time we saw or heard the leadership of the Church really bravely and openly defending family and life?
00:29:34.660You know, we can think about the referendums in Ireland, for example.
00:29:39.080And we can only imagine what Pope John Paul II would have done in those situations.
00:29:43.100You know, he would have called every single Catholic, all the bishops, do everything you can to avoid the destruction of family.
00:29:49.320Do everything you can to avoid the legalization of the murdering of unborn babies.
00:31:03.360And it went on, like, you know, festive celebrations, the Pope is coming, everything is fine.
00:31:09.280So I was quite hurt, actually, for the situation.
00:31:12.820Let me add one more thing about the contrast, about the change, which is very painful to us as lay Catholics also fighting in Estonia to defend Catholic ideals.
00:31:23.340Because what we see more and more often is that the liberal media actually attacks us by saying that, well, you seem to be more Catholic than the Pope, right?
00:31:34.260Because didn't you hear what the Pope said?
00:35:39.400I mean, it's not heroic in the sense that...
00:35:42.300Going back to what you said before, I think very many Catholic men and men in general long for the possibility to suffer for something good.