The John-Henry Westen Show - Is Pope Francis Really the Pope？ Eric Sammons of Crisis Magazine Reacts

00:00:00.420 We should be calling people to is this higher life, which of course is only possible through

00:00:04.100 the grace of Jesus Christ.

00:00:05.560 We can't do it in our own power.

00:00:06.820 We all know we fall all the time, but Christ is raising us up, whereas Synodality is saying,

00:00:11.480 no, just stay down.

00:00:12.940 It's almost like they're putting their foot on your neck when you're down.

00:00:15.940 That's like the dictatorship of relativism.

00:00:17.880 We're just going to put our foot on your neck. 1.00

00:00:18.940 You just stay down there in your sin, and it becomes just a power game, a political game

00:00:24.860 of, okay, these people, we keep them down, and they don't realize the beauty of a Catholic 0.88

00:00:30.500 life fully lived.

00:00:37.480 Hey, my friends.

00:00:38.760 You know, there's a lot of people around talking about what's going to come at the Synod, and

00:00:46.600 as we are into it already, we want to talk with someone who's been writing about it, thinking

00:00:51.460 about it, and affecting what's going on also in the church.

00:00:56.980 Eric Sammons runs Christ's Magazine, and it's just stellar, and a lot of people might

00:01:03.140 think, oh, that's competition, so you don't know.

00:01:05.540 Actually, I actually admire a lot of what Eric is doing, and I don't feel it's competition

00:01:13.400 at all.

00:01:13.720 In fact, the more the merrier.

00:01:15.620 Christ's Magazine has been around for a long, long time, before Eric, too, but Christ's has

00:01:20.320 taken on a new strength in what they've done, how faithful they've been, and they've embraced

00:01:29.060 tradition at a time when all of tradition is sort of being rejected by everyone else.

00:01:34.600 It's an incredible thing to see.

00:01:36.740 If you're not already subscribed, I encourage you to get on to Crisis Magazine.

00:01:41.000 Stay tuned for this interview with Eric Sammons.

00:01:42.760 The church is in the greatest crisis of its 2,000-year history.

00:01:49.280 The church, our mother, needs your help like never before.

00:01:54.000 Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said,

00:01:55.440 Those are the words of Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.

00:02:17.920 And yes, we are called to pray and fast.

00:02:23.000 We're all called to pray and fast about this.

00:02:25.420 But some of you are called to lead this fight.

00:02:29.180 Some of you are called to fund the effort.

00:02:32.660 Where are you called?

00:02:35.260 Pray about that.

00:02:37.420 And heed the Holy Spirit.

00:02:39.620 As you know, the Synod on Synodality is about to launch.

00:02:45.780 LifeSite will be there reporting every day on what's taking place.

00:02:50.420 And we already know that it will be a scandal.

00:02:54.240 But we are also called to act.

00:02:57.840 And some, especially those called by the Holy Spirit,

00:03:01.740 are asked to speak boldly,

00:03:04.700 to reject the falsehood

00:03:06.440 and stand for the unchanged and unchangeable truth of Christ

00:03:11.140 and His one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.

00:03:16.120 If you feel that you are called to be one of those leaders,

00:03:21.400 consider joining us in Rome at the end of the Synod

00:03:25.140 to be there as a sign of resistance

00:03:28.000 to the setting up of a false new church

00:03:30.780 and as a sign of adherence

00:03:33.200 to the only church founded by Christ Himself.

00:03:38.200 Rome Life Forum is a two-day strategy conference

00:03:40.980 for Catholic leaders defending the truths

00:03:43.640 which are most under threat

00:03:45.360 on sexuality, family, and liturgy.

00:03:49.440 Are you called to leadership in this fight?

00:03:53.240 Are you called to join us at Rome Life Forum?

00:03:57.840 If so, go to romelifeforum.com

00:04:00.580 and I'll see you in the eternal city

00:04:03.420 with Cardinal Muller,

00:04:06.220 with Bishop Joseph Strickland,

00:04:08.280 and an army of faithful Catholics

00:04:10.700 such as Michael Matt,

00:04:11.840 Alexander Chugwell,

00:04:13.360 Reggie Littlejohn,

00:04:14.360 Liz Yore,

00:04:14.960 Christopher Ferrara,

00:04:15.940 Terry Barber,

00:04:16.660 Hugh Owens,

00:04:17.260 and many more willing to die

00:04:19.960 for the one holy Catholic

00:04:23.160 and apostolic church of our fathers.

00:04:26.780 This is John Henry Weston

00:04:28.020 for LifeSite News.

00:04:29.740 May God bless you.

00:04:31.120 And now, back to the program.

00:04:34.580 Eric, welcome to the program.

00:04:35.960 Thanks so much for having me, John Henry.

00:04:38.140 So, let's begin,

00:04:40.280 as we always do,

00:04:40.940 with the sign of the cross first.

00:04:42.180 In the name of the Father,

00:04:43.060 and of the Son,

00:04:44.360 and of the Holy Ghost.

00:04:45.740 Amen.

00:04:46.840 Okay, so,

00:04:47.920 here you are,

00:04:48.600 Catholic Identity Conference,

00:04:50.060 and you've given even a talk

00:04:51.780 on synodality.

00:04:54.060 What in the world is synodality, anyway?

00:04:56.980 That is the $64,000 question, isn't it?

00:05:00.160 So, in my talk,

00:05:00.820 I actually read what the Vatican website says it is,

00:05:04.300 which makes no sense.

00:05:05.220 I said it's like a,

00:05:05.880 Vaticanese,

00:05:07.400 it's like a cross between

00:05:08.240 a government manual

00:05:09.060 and a New Age handbook.

00:05:10.460 I mean, it just makes no sense.

00:05:11.660 It's bureaucratic nonsense.

00:05:13.760 But I defined what I think synodality is,

00:05:16.140 and I said it's the effort

00:05:17.920 to transform Catholicism 0.80

00:05:19.560 into a religion

00:05:20.880 in which vice and virtue are equal

00:05:23.500 and are voted upon by its members.

00:05:26.600 That's my essential definition of synodality,

00:05:28.900 because that's what's happening is

00:05:30.560 they're putting everything up for a vote,

00:05:32.800 and not just for a vote,

00:05:34.220 of the bishops,

00:05:34.960 who are the successors to the apostles,

00:05:36.520 but to priests, to laity,

00:05:38.840 hand-selected priests and laity,

00:05:40.620 of course,

00:05:40.860 like Father James Martin,

00:05:41.860 people like that.

00:05:43.460 But issues that have been settled,

00:05:45.600 settled for centuries,

00:05:47.240 and resettled, in a sense,

00:05:50.180 reiterated by John Paul II.

00:05:52.800 And now it's like,

00:05:53.700 nope, everything is up for grabs again.

00:05:56.140 And that's essentially what synodality is.

00:05:57.980 It's putting vice and virtue

00:05:59.780 on equal footing

00:06:01.200 and saying, let's vote on this.

00:06:02.440 What do we think?

00:06:02.940 Sixth Commandment?

00:06:03.620 Are we for it?

00:06:04.520 Are we against it?

00:06:06.020 And that's essentially what it ends up being.

00:06:08.780 So what have you seen

00:06:10.060 as we're entering the synod now,

00:06:13.540 the subjects that you know

00:06:14.780 are going to come up that are settled,

00:06:17.040 but yet now open for debate?

00:06:19.200 I think the big ones we keep hearing about,

00:06:21.920 of course,

00:06:22.180 are women's ordination.

00:06:23.160 A number of bishops have been

00:06:24.540 kind of mentioning it again.

00:06:26.560 And the stealth way they want to get in

00:06:28.480 is through diaconate ordination,

00:06:30.460 trying to, you know,

00:06:31.260 there's language in our tradition

00:06:33.280 of deaconesses from the early church,

00:06:35.100 so let's make that equivalent

00:06:36.380 to men ordained deacons

00:06:38.600 and try to have that.

00:06:39.900 But we all know that's just the foot in the door

00:06:42.080 to women's ordination

00:06:43.360 and to the priesthood

00:06:44.280 and even to the Episcopate.

00:06:45.880 That's a big one, of course.

00:06:47.520 The condoning homosexual acts, 1.00

00:06:51.020 homosexual relationships, 0.65

00:06:53.260 reaffirming the false teaching

00:06:57.340 of Morse Letitia

00:06:58.320 about communion for divorced and remarried.

00:07:01.220 Those are some of the big ones.

00:07:02.960 The whole idea of

00:07:04.000 just people living together.

00:07:06.980 I was just talking to somebody

00:07:08.100 after my talk.

00:07:09.480 She was saying how

00:07:10.320 she has a daughter

00:07:12.680 who's living with her boyfriend

00:07:15.320 and she was raised Catholic,

00:07:18.960 but it's basically,

00:07:20.400 that's just what you do now.

00:07:21.540 And the church is saying,

00:07:22.560 well, there's elements of good in there.

00:07:24.220 There's elements of holiness in that.

00:07:26.000 And of course,

00:07:26.520 it's contrary to what

00:07:27.660 the church has always taught about that.

00:07:29.780 And so I think those are probably,

00:07:30.700 it's always the pelvic issues,

00:07:33.360 as they say,

00:07:33.940 always come to fore

00:07:34.940 and women's ordination. 0.97

00:07:36.840 And I think just a general,

00:07:38.000 I think one thing we have to remember,

00:07:41.120 it's not always these specific issues,

00:07:43.460 but synodality is a way of being church,

00:07:46.560 to use their way of putting it.

00:07:48.180 It's a way of just causing confusion

00:07:50.760 and letting Catholics know,

00:07:52.780 well, yeah,

00:07:53.080 maybe the church is against this today,

00:07:54.960 but we'll just have another synod

00:07:55.920 in a few years

00:07:56.540 and it'll be for it,

00:07:57.340 so I might as well

00:07:57.740 just get ahead of the curve.

00:07:58.900 So it basically makes everything

00:08:00.660 open for interpretation,

00:08:03.080 for debate.

00:08:04.400 You know, Benedict,

00:08:05.180 it tried to fight relativism,

00:08:08.500 which this is,

00:08:09.300 and maybe you can unpack that

00:08:10.200 a tiny bit for us

00:08:11.080 just to make it really simple,

00:08:12.220 but we're seeing it promoted now

00:08:15.840 by Pope Francis himself,

00:08:18.300 let alone the cardinals

00:08:20.020 that are surrounding him

00:08:20.860 and the general relator of the synod

00:08:24.140 is Cardinal Holleridge,

00:08:25.960 who's already known on the other side

00:08:28.600 with regard to homosexuality and stuff.

00:08:31.020 So unpack that a little bit for us

00:08:32.880 if you could.

00:08:34.720 Yeah, so, I mean,

00:08:36.120 Pope Benedict,

00:08:37.640 God rest his soul,

00:08:38.580 he was so brilliant.

00:08:40.420 He spoke very strongly against that.

00:08:42.280 And that's one of the things I notice

00:08:43.720 is that we talk about

00:08:46.160 traditional Catholics

00:08:47.300 opposing a lot of the agenda of Francis,

00:08:50.440 but Francis isn't upending

00:08:51.900 just preconciliar ideas.

00:08:54.220 He's upending JP2.

00:08:56.120 I mean, very much JP2.

00:08:57.860 And, of course, Benedict.

00:09:00.040 In the things that John Paul II

00:09:01.700 was very clear,

00:09:02.920 and that was one of the beauties

00:09:04.120 of JP2's pontificate

00:09:06.020 was this idea

00:09:07.480 that there are moral norms,

00:09:09.100 there is right and wrong,

00:09:10.860 and Francis is now

00:09:13.000 leaving it up for a vote.

00:09:13.920 And I think it's this purposeful confusion

00:09:16.040 that's happening,

00:09:17.200 and it is relativistic.

00:09:18.800 And you see it,

00:09:20.100 I remember when

00:09:20.840 Maurice Leticia came out,

00:09:22.160 I didn't read it on purpose at first.

00:09:23.940 I was like, you know,

00:09:24.960 I know it's not going to be good.

00:09:26.200 I don't need to read it.

00:09:27.020 But finally, I got around to reading it.

00:09:28.980 I think a couple years after it came out.

00:09:30.760 And I remember saying,

00:09:32.980 wow, I'll just be blunt.

00:09:35.200 This is diabolical.

00:09:36.840 Because it wasn't the footnote

00:09:38.360 that was the problem to me.

00:09:39.340 I mean, yeah, the footnote

00:09:40.200 with the allowing divorce

00:09:41.620 and marriage and communion,

00:09:42.440 that's bad.

00:09:42.900 But it was the whole

00:09:44.440 moral underpinnings

00:09:45.740 that they tried to dress up

00:09:46.900 as Thomistic and everything

00:09:47.980 of this idea of

00:09:49.600 there's an ideal,

00:09:51.420 and we can't really reach that,

00:09:53.620 and so we just meet people

00:09:54.740 where they are.

00:09:55.360 Well, the problem with that

00:09:57.180 is that's contrary to Catholicism.

00:09:59.780 Our Lord says,

00:10:01.900 be perfect

00:10:02.440 as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

00:10:04.260 And what He does

00:10:05.100 is when we don't reach that,

00:10:05.960 He reaches down and picks you up.

00:10:07.400 He picks us up

00:10:08.200 to reach that ideal.

00:10:09.520 But what they're saying is,

00:10:10.560 no,

00:10:10.920 we're going to go down

00:10:12.140 and just hang out with you

00:10:13.700 in your sin

00:10:14.820 and accept it as just

00:10:17.660 this is another way to live,

00:10:20.700 and there's elements of goodness in it,

00:10:22.140 so we're just going to accept that.

00:10:23.420 But really,

00:10:23.920 what we should be calling people to

00:10:25.260 is this higher life,

00:10:26.300 which of course is only possible

00:10:27.220 through the grace of Jesus Christ.

00:10:28.740 We can't do it in our own power.

00:10:30.100 We all know we fall all the time.

00:10:31.700 But Christ is raising us up,

00:10:33.320 whereas Synodality is saying,

00:10:34.780 no, just stay down.

00:10:36.360 It's almost like they're putting

00:10:37.240 their foot on your neck

00:10:38.280 when you're down.

00:10:39.200 That's like the dictatorship

00:10:40.080 of relativism.

00:10:41.120 We're just going to put

00:10:41.700 our foot on your neck. 0.97

00:10:42.240 You just stay down there 0.96

00:10:43.200 in your sin,

00:10:45.380 and it becomes just a power game,

00:10:47.420 a political game,

00:10:48.360 of, okay,

00:10:48.660 these people,

00:10:49.060 we keep them down,

00:10:50.180 and they don't realize

00:10:51.400 the beauty of a Catholic life

00:10:54.040 fully lived.

00:10:55.560 So one of the most confusing figures

00:10:57.740 in our church today,

00:10:58.780 confusing for some,

00:10:59.700 perhaps not for others,

00:11:00.700 is Father James Martin,

00:11:02.520 because he talks a really good game.

00:11:07.240 If you could,

00:11:08.780 unpack for Father James Martin,

00:11:10.480 because it's a stunning thing.

00:11:13.040 I don't mean to praise the guy,

00:11:14.220 but he's done a lot of things well

00:11:16.780 in order to be confusing,

00:11:17.960 which to me is really demonic.

00:11:20.820 It would be one thing

00:11:21.800 if we were just saying,

00:11:22.860 you know, 1.00

00:11:23.120 go out and have gay sex 1.00

00:11:24.800 and it's all wonderful. 1.00

00:11:25.600 He doesn't do that.

00:11:26.640 He actually phrases it

00:11:28.260 very much like a morse titia

00:11:29.460 in ways that are this roundabout.

00:11:33.880 That's the ultimate thing

00:11:35.560 that you know what he's saying,

00:11:37.200 and it's all this, 0.79

00:11:38.220 the whole homosexual community 0.99

00:11:39.380 understands it.

00:11:40.820 But, you know,

00:11:41.840 there are very many apologists

00:11:43.900 even for Father James Martin

00:11:45.600 as if he's totally orthodox.

00:11:46.960 I guess you have to

00:11:47.620 when he meets so often

00:11:48.420 with Pope Francis,

00:11:49.100 but unpack for us

00:11:50.220 Father James Martin

00:11:50.920 if you could.

00:11:52.940 Hello, friends.

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00:12:32.920 in this perilous time.

00:12:34.260 May God bless you.

00:12:34.760 Well, we have to remember,

00:12:38.000 first of all,

00:12:39.100 one of those brilliant creations

00:12:40.980 of all is Satan.

00:12:43.500 I mean, he's brilliant.

00:12:45.700 And so people who are

00:12:47.900 in his employ,

00:12:50.800 so to speak,

00:12:51.800 they can be brilliant.

00:12:53.000 I mean, and I think

00:12:54.240 give the devil his due,

00:12:56.100 Father James Martin

00:12:56.660 is brilliant in what he does.

00:12:59.460 Unfortunately,

00:13:00.100 what he does

00:13:00.780 is he undermines Catholicism,

00:13:02.400 he undermines morality,

00:13:03.420 he leads people to sin,

00:13:04.580 and he leads people

00:13:05.260 to hell, frankly,

00:13:07.080 and to be blunt.

00:13:08.660 And I speak like that

00:13:10.120 very directly

00:13:10.780 because I'm trying to speak

00:13:12.180 the exact opposite

00:13:13.160 of how Father James Martin talks.

00:13:15.260 He speaks in these ambiguities,

00:13:17.240 he speaks of accepting things,

00:13:19.500 of being kind to people,

00:13:22.480 and this type of language

00:13:24.240 of where he doesn't really state

00:13:27.240 exactly what he means.

00:13:29.160 Everybody knows,

00:13:30.800 everybody knows

00:13:32.020 he thinks the Church

00:13:33.680 is teaching

00:13:34.080 on homosexuality,

00:13:35.560 homosexual activity, 0.78

00:13:36.760 should be changed.

00:13:38.180 Yet, I don't think he's,

00:13:39.700 I'm pretty sure

00:13:40.340 he's never actually said that.

00:13:42.240 That's the brilliance.

00:13:43.660 Because Catholics

00:13:45.920 who are,

00:13:46.300 or non-Catholics

00:13:46.820 who are struggling

00:13:47.500 with homosexual inclination, 0.60

00:13:49.760 through upbringing, 0.88

00:13:50.820 through maybe abuse

00:13:51.960 in their background,

00:13:53.080 these poor souls,

00:13:54.660 what they need

00:13:55.540 is apostles like Courage

00:13:56.960 who tell them,

00:13:57.720 we will help you

00:13:59.480 through Christ's grace

00:14:01.080 to live a chaste life,

00:14:02.360 live the way God

00:14:03.320 wants you to live.

00:14:04.800 Father James Martin says,

00:14:06.240 oh, you're okay

00:14:06.960 the way you are,

00:14:08.000 and then they fall

00:14:10.060 into the homosexual lifestyle, 0.96

00:14:11.360 which, as you know,

00:14:12.600 and I know

00:14:13.200 from talking to many people

00:14:15.060 who've been in that lifestyle,

00:14:16.220 how destructive it is

00:14:18.300 to the soul,

00:14:19.140 to the body.

00:14:20.580 And so, really,

00:14:21.880 it is diabolical,

00:14:23.560 and it's genius,

00:14:25.100 and he gives himself

00:14:26.900 enough cover,

00:14:27.800 because people can say,

00:14:28.500 well, he's never taught

00:14:29.500 against church teaching,

00:14:30.820 but he undermines it

00:14:32.160 by every single thing he does,

00:14:34.300 and that's the real danger.

00:14:35.800 And so he's far more dangerous

00:14:37.120 than the clumsy priest

00:14:39.200 who might just say,

00:14:40.320 yeah, go ahead, 1.00

00:14:41.080 it's okay to have homosexual sex 1.00

00:14:43.100 or something like that. 0.99

00:14:43.500 That person we just know

00:14:44.640 they're opposed.

00:14:46.480 He gives that cover

00:14:47.100 so he's able to speak

00:14:48.280 in diocese with bishops.

00:14:51.020 He gets bishops endorsing him,

00:14:52.340 and we just saw

00:14:53.000 he meets with the Pope

00:14:54.480 on a regular basis.

00:14:56.160 Yeah, we used to think

00:14:57.240 it was once,

00:14:58.960 then twice,

00:15:00.100 then three times.

00:15:01.400 Now it's a regular thing.

00:15:03.480 They're just out.

00:15:05.620 By the time you're seeing this,

00:15:06.800 it'd be like last week,

00:15:07.760 another one,

00:15:08.960 and it's just,

00:15:09.760 it's like a frequent partnership

00:15:12.200 answering the dubia

00:15:14.960 of Father James Martin

00:15:17.020 and his new homosexual group, 0.79

00:15:18.620 I think they call it 0.85

00:15:19.300 Outreach or something,

00:15:20.840 and won't answer the dubia

00:15:22.860 from the four cardinals.

00:15:24.420 It's absolutely unreal.

00:15:26.180 And to realize the gravity,

00:15:27.800 part of that genius is

00:15:29.240 he doesn't just say,

00:15:30.720 stay where you are,

00:15:31.700 he actually says,

00:15:32.940 God made you that way.

00:15:35.020 Embrace who you are,

00:15:35.820 and you're like,

00:15:36.340 oh my goodness.

00:15:37.840 And, you know,

00:15:39.240 the confusion is stellar.

00:15:40.760 We needed,

00:15:43.160 in so much of this,

00:15:45.780 he's only a priest yet,

00:15:47.320 so you do have some bishops

00:15:50.240 who do openly decry what he does.

00:15:53.280 Obviously,

00:15:54.660 Bishop Schneider would do that,

00:15:56.620 but, you know,

00:15:57.380 we've heard Cardinal Muller

00:15:58.580 do it as well,

00:15:59.900 Cardinal Burke do it as well.

00:16:01.300 So that's beautiful

00:16:02.620 when you have the faith defended

00:16:05.040 against a real player

00:16:06.880 who is,

00:16:08.180 you know,

00:16:08.420 for all intents and purposes

00:16:09.360 like best buds

00:16:10.280 with the Holy Father.

00:16:11.180 It's just unreal.

00:16:13.200 But let's talk about the Pope

00:16:14.520 because this is

00:16:16.440 one of the most confusing times on earth.

00:16:19.240 I don't know

00:16:20.020 that the Church has experienced

00:16:21.200 something like this before,

00:16:22.040 but here you have a Pope

00:16:25.080 who is supposed to be

00:16:27.840 the defender,

00:16:29.740 the protector of the faith,

00:16:31.560 doing what seems to be

00:16:33.540 the opposite of that.

00:16:35.060 And that has made for a debate

00:16:36.880 in the Church

00:16:37.580 of is the Pope the Pope?

00:16:41.040 What does that even mean?

00:16:43.600 You know,

00:16:44.040 there was the thesis of Bellarmine

00:16:45.340 that the Pope can lose

00:16:46.460 the papacy for heresy.

00:16:48.020 What are your thoughts on all this?

00:16:50.080 Okay,

00:16:50.380 so for the next two hours,

00:16:51.620 I'm going to lay out.

00:16:53.900 No,

00:16:54.140 I think,

00:16:55.400 first of all,

00:16:56.340 it is a very confusing time.

00:16:58.540 And I think it was,

00:16:59.820 Kennedy Hall wrote recently

00:17:00.920 for 1 Peter 5

00:17:01.680 and he said,

00:17:02.920 in this time of confusion,

00:17:04.260 God is going to be very merciful.

00:17:05.720 And I think that's true.

00:17:07.620 that it is very difficult

00:17:09.280 to live as a Catholic right now

00:17:10.760 and to understand all this.

00:17:13.420 So when somebody comes to me

00:17:14.720 and they say,

00:17:16.040 you know,

00:17:16.280 Eric,

00:17:16.600 I just,

00:17:17.200 I have a hard time thinking

00:17:19.060 that that guy is the Pope.

00:17:21.080 I just have a hard time.

00:17:22.420 I sympathize.

00:17:23.420 I get it.

00:17:24.140 I'm not one to just

00:17:25.320 jump on them and say,

00:17:26.480 oh no,

00:17:26.840 you can't think that.

00:17:28.440 No,

00:17:28.820 I get why they think that.

00:17:30.860 I'm empathetic to it.

00:17:32.420 At the same time,

00:17:34.060 I do think if we

00:17:35.420 look at our history

00:17:37.140 of the church

00:17:37.780 and we look at our theology

00:17:38.880 and we look at how

00:17:40.420 the church is run,

00:17:41.900 I think it's very important

00:17:43.020 that a cornerstone

00:17:44.480 of Catholicism

00:17:45.340 is to be in communion

00:17:47.260 with the Bishop of Rome.

00:17:48.880 And I think

00:17:49.600 where everybody gets hung up

00:17:50.640 is what does it mean

00:17:51.680 to be in communion?

00:17:53.780 Most people think

00:17:54.840 it means to be in agreement,

00:17:56.040 that we follow everything

00:17:57.080 he says and does.

00:17:58.220 Well,

00:17:58.540 that would mean

00:17:59.120 at times we're in agreement

00:18:01.200 in communion with air

00:18:02.940 and we're not supposed

00:18:04.120 to be that.

00:18:04.740 So I get that.

00:18:05.860 That's not what communion

00:18:06.780 is though.

00:18:07.940 Communion really is more

00:18:09.040 of a mystical

00:18:11.260 and hierarchical union

00:18:12.600 that we have,

00:18:13.720 that we attend a church

00:18:15.180 where the Pope's name

00:18:16.480 is read during the Mass,

00:18:18.740 that we acknowledge him

00:18:20.620 as the Supreme Pontiff,

00:18:22.120 our bishop is in communion

00:18:24.180 with him as well,

00:18:25.360 is under him.

00:18:26.800 And that does not mean

00:18:28.020 we agree everything he does

00:18:29.540 or that he never can be wrong

00:18:31.100 because our Lord himself

00:18:32.780 in the parable

00:18:33.280 of the wheat and the chaff,

00:18:34.220 he said,

00:18:35.080 yeah,

00:18:35.280 it's going to be messy

00:18:36.840 inside the church.

00:18:39.100 And ultimately though,

00:18:41.080 it's his duty

00:18:42.060 to sort it all out.

00:18:43.980 And so as a,

00:18:44.880 and ultimately

00:18:45.560 when it comes to the question

00:18:46.540 of whether or not

00:18:47.100 is Francis the Pope,

00:18:48.940 I think it's,

00:18:50.820 it's,

00:18:51.080 it's said kind of

00:18:52.340 as a,

00:18:53.320 as a throwaway,

00:18:54.020 but I really mean it.

00:18:54.720 It's like,

00:18:54.880 it's above my pay grade.

00:18:56.000 And I really mean that though

00:18:57.260 in the sense of

00:18:58.060 Bellarmine himself

00:18:59.400 speaks of this,

00:19:00.920 that the church,

00:19:02.600 when we're talking

00:19:03.180 about an office,

00:19:04.940 the church has

00:19:06.760 ways in which

00:19:08.340 people lose their office

00:19:10.620 and are declared

00:19:11.560 out of their office.

00:19:12.280 So for example,

00:19:12.960 if a priest

00:19:13.540 is heretical,

00:19:15.140 a bishop

00:19:15.560 has the authority

00:19:16.620 to remove him

00:19:18.060 from office,

00:19:19.160 likewise a bishop,

00:19:20.520 the Pope has authority.

00:19:22.640 The challenge we have

00:19:24.220 is the church

00:19:24.800 has actually not created,

00:19:27.340 does not have

00:19:28.400 a methodology,

00:19:29.840 an instrument

00:19:30.280 to do this

00:19:31.860 for a Pope.

00:19:33.000 And that might be like,

00:19:34.420 well,

00:19:35.220 maybe we should have

00:19:35.760 thought of that

00:19:36.100 before now.

00:19:37.100 But the fact is

00:19:38.020 that's usually how

00:19:38.720 the church figures things out

00:19:39.780 is you get a crisis.

00:19:41.080 What do you do?

00:19:42.120 And ultimately

00:19:42.860 I do really go back

00:19:43.960 to the view

00:19:45.740 of acceptance.

00:19:46.660 Bishop Schneider

00:19:47.140 has talked about

00:19:47.520 this a lot,

00:19:48.480 that when the church

00:19:49.460 basically in her

00:19:51.000 bishops and the laity,

00:19:52.720 when they accept something,

00:19:54.180 that means that's

00:19:55.380 what it is.

00:19:56.020 And the church

00:19:56.900 has accepted

00:19:57.340 Francis as the Pope.

00:19:58.320 I know some people

00:19:58.840 don't,

00:19:59.120 but like the whole

00:19:59.900 hierarchy does,

00:20:01.480 and so therefore

00:20:02.020 he is the Pope.

00:20:03.580 And you see that,

00:20:04.640 for example,

00:20:05.000 when you had

00:20:05.480 the three Popes

00:20:06.140 years ago,

00:20:07.280 they had a council,

00:20:09.020 and the council

00:20:09.920 is not above the Pope

00:20:10.860 according to Catholic theology,

00:20:11.860 yet the council

00:20:13.260 told the Popes,

00:20:14.440 y'all got to resign,

00:20:15.680 we're going to create

00:20:16.220 a new one.

00:20:17.360 And they did.

00:20:18.780 And one of them

00:20:19.580 refused to,

00:20:20.440 but the actual Pope did,

00:20:22.700 and so they did

00:20:23.360 elect a new Pope.

00:20:24.200 And that Pope

00:20:24.680 then immediately said,

00:20:25.400 by the way,

00:20:25.840 the Popes are above councils, 0.65

00:20:27.220 because he knew

00:20:28.060 that's a dangerous precedence

00:20:29.380 if we make that a law.

00:20:31.060 But what happened

00:20:31.960 was the reason

00:20:32.520 that was now,

00:20:33.460 and you look at

00:20:34.100 the church list of Popes,

00:20:36.160 he is a legitimate Pope,

00:20:37.960 even though the council

00:20:38.740 kind of picked him

00:20:39.680 above another Pope.

00:20:40.620 It's because

00:20:41.700 it was basically

00:20:42.720 the church said,

00:20:43.400 okay,

00:20:44.180 we got a lot

00:20:44.900 going wrong here,

00:20:45.840 this is what we're going to do,

00:20:46.940 and everybody accepted it,

00:20:48.180 and we just moved forward.

00:20:49.240 And that doesn't work

00:20:50.460 for our Western

00:20:51.160 kind of legalistic minds.

00:20:52.480 We want to have,

00:20:53.600 oh, in canon law,

00:20:54.180 you do this,

00:20:54.600 follow this,

00:20:55.040 in that direction,

00:20:55.760 that's always the way

00:20:56.360 it's going to go.

00:20:57.640 That's not the way

00:20:58.280 it's gone in church history.

00:20:59.220 We've had emperors

00:21:00.040 deposed Popes before,

00:21:01.340 so I think ultimately

00:21:02.540 the church is going to have

00:21:04.440 to grapple with two issues.

00:21:06.100 One is the specific issue

00:21:07.720 of Francis

00:21:08.220 and everything he's written.

00:21:09.600 One day,

00:21:10.400 you may have a council,

00:21:11.480 you may have a Pope

00:21:12.080 who just says,

00:21:13.060 we're going to erase that

00:21:15.540 from the church.

00:21:18.260 Almost you have to.

00:21:21.720 That's not a,

00:21:23.000 I don't think that's a,

00:21:24.620 that's just a possibility.

00:21:25.960 I think that's a necessity

00:21:26.980 because they,

00:21:28.500 at least in four documents,

00:21:29.960 you have viable heresies

00:21:31.940 that are,

00:21:33.360 they look formal

00:21:34.560 to a non-expert,

00:21:35.880 but it's,

00:21:37.420 they're wrong in spades,

00:21:40.540 more wrong

00:21:41.360 than many of the things

00:21:42.780 that were questions

00:21:44.020 before in the past

00:21:44.900 for other Popes

00:21:45.820 that made errors.

00:21:46.600 So, yeah,

00:21:47.600 I think it has to come.

00:21:49.360 Would you agree with that?

00:21:51.400 Yes.

00:21:52.100 It just may not come

00:21:52.840 in our lifetime.

00:21:53.600 Yeah.

00:21:53.920 I think it has to come.

00:21:55.240 And I also think

00:21:55.880 the church then has to grapple

00:21:57.040 with the more general issue of

00:21:58.380 what do we do

00:21:59.680 in the case of a Pope

00:22:00.980 who is actively trying

00:22:02.500 to undermine the faith?

00:22:04.080 What is the procedure

00:22:05.100 in which that Pope is,

00:22:07.980 is it going to,

00:22:08.520 maybe it just is going to be,

00:22:09.680 we wait for a future Pope.

00:22:10.920 Because people don't like

00:22:12.320 that answer.

00:22:13.440 And I understand

00:22:13.940 why they don't like it.

00:22:15.040 But you look in

00:22:16.080 his church history,

00:22:17.640 that happens sometimes

00:22:18.600 where there are periods

00:22:19.560 in which there's just

00:22:20.540 massive confusion.

00:22:22.280 I mean,

00:22:22.800 Arian crisis,

00:22:23.540 obviously we have most bishops

00:22:25.000 preaching Arianism.

00:22:27.160 You have the Great Western Schism 0.85

00:22:28.960 where you have multiple Popes,

00:22:30.300 people claiming,

00:22:30.980 men claiming to be Pope.

00:22:32.560 And we see it in history,

00:22:34.340 like, okay,

00:22:34.740 the Great Western Schism, 0.73

00:22:36.000 it was 80 years,

00:22:36.780 something like that,

00:22:37.340 I can't remember.

00:22:38.280 And you have these three Popes.

00:22:39.420 But remember,

00:22:39.880 what if you're just a Catholic

00:22:40.840 who's born the year

00:22:42.420 after the first two people

00:22:44.320 are saying they're Pope

00:22:44.960 and you die five years 0.66

00:22:46.940 before they resolve it?

00:22:47.980 Your entire life

00:22:49.260 as a Catholic

00:22:49.940 is under multiple men

00:22:52.520 saying they're Pope.

00:22:54.440 And I can understand

00:22:56.100 that person would be like,

00:22:57.020 like, God,

00:22:57.540 you need to resolve this.

00:22:59.240 And he did eventually resolve it,

00:23:00.800 but it wasn't in the time frame

00:23:02.200 that maybe that guy wanted to.

00:23:03.280 And I feel like

00:23:03.680 we are the same way.

00:23:05.200 We have to live under this.

00:23:06.820 Of course,

00:23:07.160 the next Pope

00:23:07.680 might be the same

00:23:08.860 as this one

00:23:09.600 as far as all this goes.

00:23:10.760 He might be much better,

00:23:11.540 might be much worse.

00:23:12.180 We don't know.

00:23:13.080 We might just have to live under it.

00:23:14.420 And so ultimately,

00:23:15.400 our duty

00:23:16.020 is to obviously

00:23:17.720 grow in holiness,

00:23:18.660 to be saints,

00:23:19.780 and to when

00:23:21.340 even high church officials

00:23:23.480 say something

00:23:25.020 that's erroneous,

00:23:26.380 we have to speak out

00:23:27.500 and say,

00:23:28.000 no,

00:23:28.220 this is not consistent

00:23:29.180 with what the church

00:23:29.840 has always taught.

00:23:31.200 How much of a loop

00:23:32.840 would it throw you for

00:23:34.120 if the next Pope

00:23:36.220 said,

00:23:37.560 yeah,

00:23:39.220 he wasn't Pope

00:23:41.000 and we should have

00:23:41.500 just paid attention

00:23:42.220 in the first place.

00:23:42.920 John Paul II

00:23:43.580 wrote a constitution

00:23:44.500 on the election of a Pope.

00:23:46.480 It was clearly

00:23:47.480 by the evidence

00:23:48.400 that we now have

00:23:49.300 that was admitted to

00:23:50.280 violated.

00:23:52.560 And therefore,

00:23:53.760 paragraph,

00:23:54.320 I think it's 76

00:23:55.060 in the document

00:23:58.280 in the Constitution

00:23:58.960 John Paul II

00:23:59.540 wrote in 1992

00:24:00.440 applies,

00:24:01.580 he wasn't the Pope.

00:24:03.220 That would have

00:24:03.700 all sorts of ramifications

00:24:04.720 though,

00:24:05.080 wouldn't it?

00:24:05.940 It would.

00:24:06.700 I mean,

00:24:06.920 it would be pretty amazing.

00:24:09.000 To be honest,

00:24:09.780 I would be happy

00:24:10.680 because it would give clarity

00:24:11.960 where there's confusion.

00:24:13.400 At the same time,

00:24:14.720 I wouldn't regret

00:24:15.720 the fact that I have been

00:24:17.360 very adamant publicly

00:24:18.580 that we have to accept

00:24:19.960 Jorge Bergoglio

00:24:21.060 as our Pope.

00:24:21.880 Because ultimately,

00:24:22.820 here's the thing.

00:24:24.000 When I go to my maker,

00:24:26.500 I have to answer

00:24:27.480 for what I knew

00:24:29.020 and what I did.

00:24:30.220 And it is legitimate

00:24:31.780 for a Catholic to say,

00:24:34.100 the entire church

00:24:35.560 that you founded,

00:24:36.760 Lord,

00:24:37.940 and all the successors

00:24:39.240 of your apostles

00:24:40.520 said,

00:24:41.660 this man is the Pope

00:24:42.300 and I went along

00:24:42.900 with them.

00:24:43.860 I cannot imagine,

00:24:45.540 but I didn't go along

00:24:46.460 with his heirs,

00:24:47.520 but I went along

00:24:48.420 with the fact

00:24:49.300 that he is the Pope.

00:24:50.480 And I feel like that

00:24:52.700 in my judgment,

00:24:53.780 I will be in good shape.

00:24:55.520 However,

00:24:55.840 if the opposite were true,

00:24:57.620 if he really is the Pope

00:24:58.460 and I was out there

00:24:59.780 speaking very publicly

00:25:00.880 and saying,

00:25:01.440 no,

00:25:01.580 he's not the Pope

00:25:02.200 and leading people

00:25:03.400 maybe not to go to Mass

00:25:04.660 because the Mass

00:25:05.440 is under the Pope

00:25:07.140 and stuff like that,

00:25:09.020 I think my judgment

00:25:10.400 could be very severe.

00:25:11.740 And so it's some

00:25:12.460 of a Pascal's wager,

00:25:13.500 I guess.

00:25:14.020 But ultimately,

00:25:14.800 I feel like this is

00:25:15.880 the path Catholics 0.98

00:25:16.980 should take,

00:25:17.540 lay Catholics,

00:25:18.240 because,

00:25:18.840 I mean,

00:25:19.040 if I was a bishop,

00:25:20.480 it might be

00:25:21.920 a whole different thing.

00:25:22.620 Then I think

00:25:23.000 I would spend

00:25:23.320 a lot more time

00:25:24.380 looking to,

00:25:25.960 is there something

00:25:26.460 I should do

00:25:27.080 to start bringing

00:25:27.860 bishops together

00:25:28.580 to talk about this?

00:25:29.820 I'm not a bishop.

00:25:30.700 I'm just a lay person.

00:25:32.360 And so my duty

00:25:33.280 is to live

00:25:35.020 the Catholic faith

00:25:35.580 and proclaim it

00:25:36.540 as it is,

00:25:37.400 even when it means

00:25:38.780 correcting errors

00:25:39.860 that come out

00:25:40.500 of the Vatican.

00:25:42.140 Absolutely beautiful.

00:25:43.120 Eric Sammons,

00:25:43.780 thank you so much

00:25:44.500 for joining us.

00:25:44.980 God bless you.

00:25:45.600 God bless you.

00:25:46.280 Thank you.

00:25:46.820 Thank you.

00:25:47.860 And God bless all of you.

00:25:49.640 And we'll see you next time.

00:25:58.440 Hi, everyone.

00:25:59.220 This is John Henry Weston.

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The John-Henry Westen Show - October 13, 2023

Is Pope Francis Really the Pope？ Eric Sammons of Crisis Magazine Reacts

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