The John-Henry Westen Show - October 13, 2023


Is Pope Francis Really the Pope？ Eric Sammons of Crisis Magazine Reacts


Episode Stats

Length

26 minutes

Words per Minute

172.51959

Word Count

4,536

Sentence Count

259

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

13


Summary

The Church is in the greatest crisis of its 2,000-year history. Are you called to lead the fight? Or do you need to join the effort? To learn more about the Rome Life Forum, go to romelifeforum.org.


Transcript

00:00:00.420 We should be calling people to is this higher life, which of course is only possible through
00:00:04.100 the grace of Jesus Christ.
00:00:05.560 We can't do it in our own power.
00:00:06.820 We all know we fall all the time, but Christ is raising us up, whereas Synodality is saying,
00:00:11.480 no, just stay down.
00:00:12.940 It's almost like they're putting their foot on your neck when you're down.
00:00:15.940 That's like the dictatorship of relativism.
00:00:17.880 We're just going to put our foot on your neck.
00:00:18.940 You just stay down there in your sin, and it becomes just a power game, a political game
00:00:24.860 of, okay, these people, we keep them down, and they don't realize the beauty of a Catholic
00:00:30.500 life fully lived.
00:00:37.480 Hey, my friends.
00:00:38.760 You know, there's a lot of people around talking about what's going to come at the Synod, and
00:00:46.600 as we are into it already, we want to talk with someone who's been writing about it, thinking
00:00:51.460 about it, and affecting what's going on also in the church.
00:00:56.980 Eric Sammons runs Christ's Magazine, and it's just stellar, and a lot of people might
00:01:03.140 think, oh, that's competition, so you don't know.
00:01:05.540 Actually, I actually admire a lot of what Eric is doing, and I don't feel it's competition
00:01:13.400 at all.
00:01:13.720 In fact, the more the merrier.
00:01:15.620 Christ's Magazine has been around for a long, long time, before Eric, too, but Christ's has
00:01:20.320 taken on a new strength in what they've done, how faithful they've been, and they've embraced
00:01:29.060 tradition at a time when all of tradition is sort of being rejected by everyone else.
00:01:34.600 It's an incredible thing to see.
00:01:36.740 If you're not already subscribed, I encourage you to get on to Crisis Magazine.
00:01:41.000 Stay tuned for this interview with Eric Sammons.
00:01:42.760 The church is in the greatest crisis of its 2,000-year history.
00:01:49.280 The church, our mother, needs your help like never before.
00:01:54.000 Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said,
00:01:55.440 Those are the words of Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen.
00:02:17.920 And yes, we are called to pray and fast.
00:02:23.000 We're all called to pray and fast about this.
00:02:25.420 But some of you are called to lead this fight.
00:02:29.180 Some of you are called to fund the effort.
00:02:32.660 Where are you called?
00:02:35.260 Pray about that.
00:02:37.420 And heed the Holy Spirit.
00:02:39.620 As you know, the Synod on Synodality is about to launch.
00:02:45.780 LifeSite will be there reporting every day on what's taking place.
00:02:50.420 And we already know that it will be a scandal.
00:02:54.240 But we are also called to act.
00:02:57.840 And some, especially those called by the Holy Spirit,
00:03:01.740 are asked to speak boldly,
00:03:04.700 to reject the falsehood
00:03:06.440 and stand for the unchanged and unchangeable truth of Christ
00:03:11.140 and His one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.
00:03:16.120 If you feel that you are called to be one of those leaders,
00:03:21.400 consider joining us in Rome at the end of the Synod
00:03:25.140 to be there as a sign of resistance
00:03:28.000 to the setting up of a false new church
00:03:30.780 and as a sign of adherence
00:03:33.200 to the only church founded by Christ Himself.
00:03:38.200 Rome Life Forum is a two-day strategy conference
00:03:40.980 for Catholic leaders defending the truths
00:03:43.640 which are most under threat
00:03:45.360 on sexuality, family, and liturgy.
00:03:49.440 Are you called to leadership in this fight?
00:03:53.240 Are you called to join us at Rome Life Forum?
00:03:57.840 If so, go to romelifeforum.com
00:04:00.580 and I'll see you in the eternal city
00:04:03.420 with Cardinal Muller,
00:04:06.220 with Bishop Joseph Strickland,
00:04:08.280 and an army of faithful Catholics
00:04:10.700 such as Michael Matt,
00:04:11.840 Alexander Chugwell,
00:04:13.360 Reggie Littlejohn,
00:04:14.360 Liz Yore,
00:04:14.960 Christopher Ferrara,
00:04:15.940 Terry Barber,
00:04:16.660 Hugh Owens,
00:04:17.260 and many more willing to die
00:04:19.960 for the one holy Catholic
00:04:23.160 and apostolic church of our fathers.
00:04:26.780 This is John Henry Weston
00:04:28.020 for LifeSite News.
00:04:29.740 May God bless you.
00:04:31.120 And now, back to the program.
00:04:34.580 Eric, welcome to the program.
00:04:35.960 Thanks so much for having me, John Henry.
00:04:38.140 So, let's begin,
00:04:40.280 as we always do,
00:04:40.940 with the sign of the cross first.
00:04:42.180 In the name of the Father,
00:04:43.060 and of the Son,
00:04:44.360 and of the Holy Ghost.
00:04:45.740 Amen.
00:04:46.840 Okay, so,
00:04:47.920 here you are,
00:04:48.600 Catholic Identity Conference,
00:04:50.060 and you've given even a talk
00:04:51.780 on synodality.
00:04:54.060 What in the world is synodality, anyway?
00:04:56.980 That is the $64,000 question, isn't it?
00:05:00.160 So, in my talk,
00:05:00.820 I actually read what the Vatican website says it is,
00:05:04.300 which makes no sense.
00:05:05.220 I said it's like a,
00:05:05.880 Vaticanese,
00:05:07.400 it's like a cross between
00:05:08.240 a government manual
00:05:09.060 and a New Age handbook.
00:05:10.460 I mean, it just makes no sense.
00:05:11.660 It's bureaucratic nonsense.
00:05:13.760 But I defined what I think synodality is,
00:05:16.140 and I said it's the effort
00:05:17.920 to transform Catholicism
00:05:19.560 into a religion
00:05:20.880 in which vice and virtue are equal
00:05:23.500 and are voted upon by its members.
00:05:26.600 That's my essential definition of synodality,
00:05:28.900 because that's what's happening is
00:05:30.560 they're putting everything up for a vote,
00:05:32.800 and not just for a vote,
00:05:34.220 of the bishops,
00:05:34.960 who are the successors to the apostles,
00:05:36.520 but to priests, to laity,
00:05:38.840 hand-selected priests and laity,
00:05:40.620 of course,
00:05:40.860 like Father James Martin,
00:05:41.860 people like that.
00:05:43.460 But issues that have been settled,
00:05:45.600 settled for centuries,
00:05:47.240 and resettled, in a sense,
00:05:50.180 reiterated by John Paul II.
00:05:52.800 And now it's like,
00:05:53.700 nope, everything is up for grabs again.
00:05:56.140 And that's essentially what synodality is.
00:05:57.980 It's putting vice and virtue
00:05:59.780 on equal footing
00:06:01.200 and saying, let's vote on this.
00:06:02.440 What do we think?
00:06:02.940 Sixth Commandment?
00:06:03.620 Are we for it?
00:06:04.520 Are we against it?
00:06:06.020 And that's essentially what it ends up being.
00:06:08.780 So what have you seen
00:06:10.060 as we're entering the synod now,
00:06:13.540 the subjects that you know
00:06:14.780 are going to come up that are settled,
00:06:17.040 but yet now open for debate?
00:06:19.200 I think the big ones we keep hearing about,
00:06:21.920 of course,
00:06:22.180 are women's ordination.
00:06:23.160 A number of bishops have been
00:06:24.540 kind of mentioning it again.
00:06:26.560 And the stealth way they want to get in
00:06:28.480 is through diaconate ordination,
00:06:30.460 trying to, you know,
00:06:31.260 there's language in our tradition
00:06:33.280 of deaconesses from the early church,
00:06:35.100 so let's make that equivalent
00:06:36.380 to men ordained deacons
00:06:38.600 and try to have that.
00:06:39.900 But we all know that's just the foot in the door
00:06:42.080 to women's ordination
00:06:43.360 and to the priesthood
00:06:44.280 and even to the Episcopate.
00:06:45.880 That's a big one, of course.
00:06:47.520 The condoning homosexual acts,
00:06:51.020 homosexual relationships,
00:06:53.260 reaffirming the false teaching
00:06:57.340 of Morse Letitia
00:06:58.320 about communion for divorced and remarried.
00:07:01.220 Those are some of the big ones.
00:07:02.960 The whole idea of
00:07:04.000 just people living together.
00:07:06.980 I was just talking to somebody
00:07:08.100 after my talk.
00:07:09.480 She was saying how
00:07:10.320 she has a daughter
00:07:12.680 who's living with her boyfriend
00:07:15.320 and she was raised Catholic,
00:07:18.960 but it's basically,
00:07:20.400 that's just what you do now.
00:07:21.540 And the church is saying,
00:07:22.560 well, there's elements of good in there.
00:07:24.220 There's elements of holiness in that.
00:07:26.000 And of course,
00:07:26.520 it's contrary to what
00:07:27.660 the church has always taught about that.
00:07:29.780 And so I think those are probably,
00:07:30.700 it's always the pelvic issues,
00:07:33.360 as they say,
00:07:33.940 always come to fore
00:07:34.940 and women's ordination.
00:07:36.840 And I think just a general,
00:07:38.000 I think one thing we have to remember,
00:07:41.120 it's not always these specific issues,
00:07:43.460 but synodality is a way of being church,
00:07:46.560 to use their way of putting it.
00:07:48.180 It's a way of just causing confusion
00:07:50.760 and letting Catholics know,
00:07:52.780 well, yeah,
00:07:53.080 maybe the church is against this today,
00:07:54.960 but we'll just have another synod
00:07:55.920 in a few years
00:07:56.540 and it'll be for it,
00:07:57.340 so I might as well
00:07:57.740 just get ahead of the curve.
00:07:58.900 So it basically makes everything
00:08:00.660 open for interpretation,
00:08:03.080 for debate.
00:08:04.400 You know, Benedict,
00:08:05.180 it tried to fight relativism,
00:08:08.500 which this is,
00:08:09.300 and maybe you can unpack that
00:08:10.200 a tiny bit for us
00:08:11.080 just to make it really simple,
00:08:12.220 but we're seeing it promoted now
00:08:15.840 by Pope Francis himself,
00:08:18.300 let alone the cardinals
00:08:20.020 that are surrounding him
00:08:20.860 and the general relator of the synod
00:08:24.140 is Cardinal Holleridge,
00:08:25.960 who's already known on the other side
00:08:28.600 with regard to homosexuality and stuff.
00:08:31.020 So unpack that a little bit for us
00:08:32.880 if you could.
00:08:34.720 Yeah, so, I mean,
00:08:36.120 Pope Benedict,
00:08:37.640 God rest his soul,
00:08:38.580 he was so brilliant.
00:08:40.420 He spoke very strongly against that.
00:08:42.280 And that's one of the things I notice
00:08:43.720 is that we talk about
00:08:46.160 traditional Catholics
00:08:47.300 opposing a lot of the agenda of Francis,
00:08:50.440 but Francis isn't upending
00:08:51.900 just preconciliar ideas.
00:08:54.220 He's upending JP2.
00:08:56.120 I mean, very much JP2.
00:08:57.860 And, of course, Benedict.
00:09:00.040 In the things that John Paul II
00:09:01.700 was very clear,
00:09:02.920 and that was one of the beauties
00:09:04.120 of JP2's pontificate
00:09:06.020 was this idea
00:09:07.480 that there are moral norms,
00:09:09.100 there is right and wrong,
00:09:10.860 and Francis is now
00:09:13.000 leaving it up for a vote.
00:09:13.920 And I think it's this purposeful confusion
00:09:16.040 that's happening,
00:09:17.200 and it is relativistic.
00:09:18.800 And you see it,
00:09:20.100 I remember when
00:09:20.840 Maurice Leticia came out,
00:09:22.160 I didn't read it on purpose at first.
00:09:23.940 I was like, you know,
00:09:24.960 I know it's not going to be good.
00:09:26.200 I don't need to read it.
00:09:27.020 But finally, I got around to reading it.
00:09:28.980 I think a couple years after it came out.
00:09:30.760 And I remember saying,
00:09:32.980 wow, I'll just be blunt.
00:09:35.200 This is diabolical.
00:09:36.840 Because it wasn't the footnote
00:09:38.360 that was the problem to me.
00:09:39.340 I mean, yeah, the footnote
00:09:40.200 with the allowing divorce
00:09:41.620 and marriage and communion,
00:09:42.440 that's bad.
00:09:42.900 But it was the whole
00:09:44.440 moral underpinnings
00:09:45.740 that they tried to dress up
00:09:46.900 as Thomistic and everything
00:09:47.980 of this idea of
00:09:49.600 there's an ideal,
00:09:51.420 and we can't really reach that,
00:09:53.620 and so we just meet people
00:09:54.740 where they are.
00:09:55.360 Well, the problem with that
00:09:57.180 is that's contrary to Catholicism.
00:09:59.780 Our Lord says,
00:10:01.900 be perfect
00:10:02.440 as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
00:10:04.260 And what He does
00:10:05.100 is when we don't reach that,
00:10:05.960 He reaches down and picks you up.
00:10:07.400 He picks us up
00:10:08.200 to reach that ideal.
00:10:09.520 But what they're saying is,
00:10:10.560 no,
00:10:10.920 we're going to go down
00:10:12.140 and just hang out with you
00:10:13.700 in your sin
00:10:14.820 and accept it as just
00:10:17.660 this is another way to live,
00:10:20.700 and there's elements of goodness in it,
00:10:22.140 so we're just going to accept that.
00:10:23.420 But really,
00:10:23.920 what we should be calling people to
00:10:25.260 is this higher life,
00:10:26.300 which of course is only possible
00:10:27.220 through the grace of Jesus Christ.
00:10:28.740 We can't do it in our own power.
00:10:30.100 We all know we fall all the time.
00:10:31.700 But Christ is raising us up,
00:10:33.320 whereas Synodality is saying,
00:10:34.780 no, just stay down.
00:10:36.360 It's almost like they're putting
00:10:37.240 their foot on your neck
00:10:38.280 when you're down.
00:10:39.200 That's like the dictatorship
00:10:40.080 of relativism.
00:10:41.120 We're just going to put
00:10:41.700 our foot on your neck.
00:10:42.240 You just stay down there
00:10:43.200 in your sin,
00:10:45.380 and it becomes just a power game,
00:10:47.420 a political game,
00:10:48.360 of, okay,
00:10:48.660 these people,
00:10:49.060 we keep them down,
00:10:50.180 and they don't realize
00:10:51.400 the beauty of a Catholic life
00:10:54.040 fully lived.
00:10:55.560 So one of the most confusing figures
00:10:57.740 in our church today,
00:10:58.780 confusing for some,
00:10:59.700 perhaps not for others,
00:11:00.700 is Father James Martin,
00:11:02.520 because he talks a really good game.
00:11:07.240 If you could,
00:11:08.780 unpack for Father James Martin,
00:11:10.480 because it's a stunning thing.
00:11:13.040 I don't mean to praise the guy,
00:11:14.220 but he's done a lot of things well
00:11:16.780 in order to be confusing,
00:11:17.960 which to me is really demonic.
00:11:20.820 It would be one thing
00:11:21.800 if we were just saying,
00:11:22.860 you know,
00:11:23.120 go out and have gay sex
00:11:24.800 and it's all wonderful.
00:11:25.600 He doesn't do that.
00:11:26.640 He actually phrases it
00:11:28.260 very much like a morse titia
00:11:29.460 in ways that are this roundabout.
00:11:33.880 That's the ultimate thing
00:11:35.560 that you know what he's saying,
00:11:37.200 and it's all this,
00:11:38.220 the whole homosexual community
00:11:39.380 understands it.
00:11:40.820 But, you know,
00:11:41.840 there are very many apologists
00:11:43.900 even for Father James Martin
00:11:45.600 as if he's totally orthodox.
00:11:46.960 I guess you have to
00:11:47.620 when he meets so often
00:11:48.420 with Pope Francis,
00:11:49.100 but unpack for us
00:11:50.220 Father James Martin
00:11:50.920 if you could.
00:11:52.940 Hello, friends.
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00:12:34.260 May God bless you.
00:12:34.760 Well, we have to remember,
00:12:38.000 first of all,
00:12:39.100 one of those brilliant creations
00:12:40.980 of all is Satan.
00:12:43.500 I mean, he's brilliant.
00:12:45.700 And so people who are
00:12:47.900 in his employ,
00:12:50.800 so to speak,
00:12:51.800 they can be brilliant.
00:12:53.000 I mean, and I think
00:12:54.240 give the devil his due,
00:12:56.100 Father James Martin
00:12:56.660 is brilliant in what he does.
00:12:59.460 Unfortunately,
00:13:00.100 what he does
00:13:00.780 is he undermines Catholicism,
00:13:02.400 he undermines morality,
00:13:03.420 he leads people to sin,
00:13:04.580 and he leads people
00:13:05.260 to hell, frankly,
00:13:07.080 and to be blunt.
00:13:08.660 And I speak like that
00:13:10.120 very directly
00:13:10.780 because I'm trying to speak
00:13:12.180 the exact opposite
00:13:13.160 of how Father James Martin talks.
00:13:15.260 He speaks in these ambiguities,
00:13:17.240 he speaks of accepting things,
00:13:19.500 of being kind to people,
00:13:22.480 and this type of language
00:13:24.240 of where he doesn't really state
00:13:27.240 exactly what he means.
00:13:29.160 Everybody knows,
00:13:30.800 everybody knows
00:13:32.020 he thinks the Church
00:13:33.680 is teaching
00:13:34.080 on homosexuality,
00:13:35.560 homosexual activity,
00:13:36.760 should be changed.
00:13:38.180 Yet, I don't think he's,
00:13:39.700 I'm pretty sure
00:13:40.340 he's never actually said that.
00:13:42.240 That's the brilliance.
00:13:43.660 Because Catholics
00:13:45.920 who are,
00:13:46.300 or non-Catholics
00:13:46.820 who are struggling
00:13:47.500 with homosexual inclination,
00:13:49.760 through upbringing,
00:13:50.820 through maybe abuse
00:13:51.960 in their background,
00:13:53.080 these poor souls,
00:13:54.660 what they need
00:13:55.540 is apostles like Courage
00:13:56.960 who tell them,
00:13:57.720 we will help you
00:13:59.480 through Christ's grace
00:14:01.080 to live a chaste life,
00:14:02.360 live the way God
00:14:03.320 wants you to live.
00:14:04.800 Father James Martin says,
00:14:06.240 oh, you're okay
00:14:06.960 the way you are,
00:14:08.000 and then they fall
00:14:10.060 into the homosexual lifestyle,
00:14:11.360 which, as you know,
00:14:12.600 and I know
00:14:13.200 from talking to many people
00:14:15.060 who've been in that lifestyle,
00:14:16.220 how destructive it is
00:14:18.300 to the soul,
00:14:19.140 to the body.
00:14:20.580 And so, really,
00:14:21.880 it is diabolical,
00:14:23.560 and it's genius,
00:14:25.100 and he gives himself
00:14:26.900 enough cover,
00:14:27.800 because people can say,
00:14:28.500 well, he's never taught
00:14:29.500 against church teaching,
00:14:30.820 but he undermines it
00:14:32.160 by every single thing he does,
00:14:34.300 and that's the real danger.
00:14:35.800 And so he's far more dangerous
00:14:37.120 than the clumsy priest
00:14:39.200 who might just say,
00:14:40.320 yeah, go ahead,
00:14:41.080 it's okay to have homosexual sex
00:14:43.100 or something like that.
00:14:43.500 That person we just know
00:14:44.640 they're opposed.
00:14:46.480 He gives that cover
00:14:47.100 so he's able to speak
00:14:48.280 in diocese with bishops.
00:14:51.020 He gets bishops endorsing him,
00:14:52.340 and we just saw
00:14:53.000 he meets with the Pope
00:14:54.480 on a regular basis.
00:14:56.160 Yeah, we used to think
00:14:57.240 it was once,
00:14:58.960 then twice,
00:15:00.100 then three times.
00:15:01.400 Now it's a regular thing.
00:15:03.480 They're just out.
00:15:05.620 By the time you're seeing this,
00:15:06.800 it'd be like last week,
00:15:07.760 another one,
00:15:08.960 and it's just,
00:15:09.760 it's like a frequent partnership
00:15:12.200 answering the dubia
00:15:14.960 of Father James Martin
00:15:17.020 and his new homosexual group,
00:15:18.620 I think they call it
00:15:19.300 Outreach or something,
00:15:20.840 and won't answer the dubia
00:15:22.860 from the four cardinals.
00:15:24.420 It's absolutely unreal.
00:15:26.180 And to realize the gravity,
00:15:27.800 part of that genius is
00:15:29.240 he doesn't just say,
00:15:30.720 stay where you are,
00:15:31.700 he actually says,
00:15:32.940 God made you that way.
00:15:35.020 Embrace who you are,
00:15:35.820 and you're like,
00:15:36.340 oh my goodness.
00:15:37.840 And, you know,
00:15:39.240 the confusion is stellar.
00:15:40.760 We needed,
00:15:43.160 in so much of this,
00:15:45.780 he's only a priest yet,
00:15:47.320 so you do have some bishops
00:15:50.240 who do openly decry what he does.
00:15:53.280 Obviously,
00:15:54.660 Bishop Schneider would do that,
00:15:56.620 but, you know,
00:15:57.380 we've heard Cardinal Muller
00:15:58.580 do it as well,
00:15:59.900 Cardinal Burke do it as well.
00:16:01.300 So that's beautiful
00:16:02.620 when you have the faith defended
00:16:05.040 against a real player
00:16:06.880 who is,
00:16:08.180 you know,
00:16:08.420 for all intents and purposes
00:16:09.360 like best buds
00:16:10.280 with the Holy Father.
00:16:11.180 It's just unreal.
00:16:13.200 But let's talk about the Pope
00:16:14.520 because this is
00:16:16.440 one of the most confusing times on earth.
00:16:19.240 I don't know
00:16:20.020 that the Church has experienced
00:16:21.200 something like this before,
00:16:22.040 but here you have a Pope
00:16:25.080 who is supposed to be
00:16:27.840 the defender,
00:16:29.740 the protector of the faith,
00:16:31.560 doing what seems to be
00:16:33.540 the opposite of that.
00:16:35.060 And that has made for a debate
00:16:36.880 in the Church
00:16:37.580 of is the Pope the Pope?
00:16:41.040 What does that even mean?
00:16:43.600 You know,
00:16:44.040 there was the thesis of Bellarmine
00:16:45.340 that the Pope can lose
00:16:46.460 the papacy for heresy.
00:16:48.020 What are your thoughts on all this?
00:16:50.080 Okay,
00:16:50.380 so for the next two hours,
00:16:51.620 I'm going to lay out.
00:16:53.900 No,
00:16:54.140 I think,
00:16:55.400 first of all,
00:16:56.340 it is a very confusing time.
00:16:58.540 And I think it was,
00:16:59.820 Kennedy Hall wrote recently
00:17:00.920 for 1 Peter 5
00:17:01.680 and he said,
00:17:02.920 in this time of confusion,
00:17:04.260 God is going to be very merciful.
00:17:05.720 And I think that's true.
00:17:07.620 that it is very difficult
00:17:09.280 to live as a Catholic right now
00:17:10.760 and to understand all this.
00:17:13.420 So when somebody comes to me
00:17:14.720 and they say,
00:17:16.040 you know,
00:17:16.280 Eric,
00:17:16.600 I just,
00:17:17.200 I have a hard time thinking
00:17:19.060 that that guy is the Pope.
00:17:21.080 I just have a hard time.
00:17:22.420 I sympathize.
00:17:23.420 I get it.
00:17:24.140 I'm not one to just
00:17:25.320 jump on them and say,
00:17:26.480 oh no,
00:17:26.840 you can't think that.
00:17:28.440 No,
00:17:28.820 I get why they think that.
00:17:30.860 I'm empathetic to it.
00:17:32.420 At the same time,
00:17:34.060 I do think if we
00:17:35.420 look at our history
00:17:37.140 of the church
00:17:37.780 and we look at our theology
00:17:38.880 and we look at how
00:17:40.420 the church is run,
00:17:41.900 I think it's very important
00:17:43.020 that a cornerstone
00:17:44.480 of Catholicism
00:17:45.340 is to be in communion
00:17:47.260 with the Bishop of Rome.
00:17:48.880 And I think
00:17:49.600 where everybody gets hung up
00:17:50.640 is what does it mean
00:17:51.680 to be in communion?
00:17:53.780 Most people think
00:17:54.840 it means to be in agreement,
00:17:56.040 that we follow everything
00:17:57.080 he says and does.
00:17:58.220 Well,
00:17:58.540 that would mean
00:17:59.120 at times we're in agreement
00:18:01.200 in communion with air
00:18:02.940 and we're not supposed
00:18:04.120 to be that.
00:18:04.740 So I get that.
00:18:05.860 That's not what communion
00:18:06.780 is though.
00:18:07.940 Communion really is more
00:18:09.040 of a mystical
00:18:11.260 and hierarchical union
00:18:12.600 that we have,
00:18:13.720 that we attend a church
00:18:15.180 where the Pope's name
00:18:16.480 is read during the Mass,
00:18:18.740 that we acknowledge him
00:18:20.620 as the Supreme Pontiff,
00:18:22.120 our bishop is in communion
00:18:24.180 with him as well,
00:18:25.360 is under him.
00:18:26.800 And that does not mean
00:18:28.020 we agree everything he does
00:18:29.540 or that he never can be wrong
00:18:31.100 because our Lord himself
00:18:32.780 in the parable
00:18:33.280 of the wheat and the chaff,
00:18:34.220 he said,
00:18:35.080 yeah,
00:18:35.280 it's going to be messy
00:18:36.840 inside the church.
00:18:39.100 And ultimately though,
00:18:41.080 it's his duty
00:18:42.060 to sort it all out.
00:18:43.980 And so as a,
00:18:44.880 and ultimately
00:18:45.560 when it comes to the question
00:18:46.540 of whether or not
00:18:47.100 is Francis the Pope,
00:18:48.940 I think it's,
00:18:50.820 it's,
00:18:51.080 it's said kind of
00:18:52.340 as a,
00:18:53.320 as a throwaway,
00:18:54.020 but I really mean it.
00:18:54.720 It's like,
00:18:54.880 it's above my pay grade.
00:18:56.000 And I really mean that though
00:18:57.260 in the sense of
00:18:58.060 Bellarmine himself
00:18:59.400 speaks of this,
00:19:00.920 that the church,
00:19:02.600 when we're talking
00:19:03.180 about an office,
00:19:04.940 the church has
00:19:06.760 ways in which
00:19:08.340 people lose their office
00:19:10.620 and are declared
00:19:11.560 out of their office.
00:19:12.280 So for example,
00:19:12.960 if a priest
00:19:13.540 is heretical,
00:19:15.140 a bishop
00:19:15.560 has the authority
00:19:16.620 to remove him
00:19:18.060 from office,
00:19:19.160 likewise a bishop,
00:19:20.520 the Pope has authority.
00:19:22.640 The challenge we have
00:19:24.220 is the church
00:19:24.800 has actually not created,
00:19:27.340 does not have
00:19:28.400 a methodology,
00:19:29.840 an instrument
00:19:30.280 to do this
00:19:31.860 for a Pope.
00:19:33.000 And that might be like,
00:19:34.420 well,
00:19:35.220 maybe we should have
00:19:35.760 thought of that
00:19:36.100 before now.
00:19:37.100 But the fact is
00:19:38.020 that's usually how
00:19:38.720 the church figures things out
00:19:39.780 is you get a crisis.
00:19:41.080 What do you do?
00:19:42.120 And ultimately
00:19:42.860 I do really go back
00:19:43.960 to the view
00:19:45.740 of acceptance.
00:19:46.660 Bishop Schneider
00:19:47.140 has talked about
00:19:47.520 this a lot,
00:19:48.480 that when the church
00:19:49.460 basically in her
00:19:51.000 bishops and the laity,
00:19:52.720 when they accept something,
00:19:54.180 that means that's
00:19:55.380 what it is.
00:19:56.020 And the church
00:19:56.900 has accepted
00:19:57.340 Francis as the Pope.
00:19:58.320 I know some people
00:19:58.840 don't,
00:19:59.120 but like the whole
00:19:59.900 hierarchy does,
00:20:01.480 and so therefore
00:20:02.020 he is the Pope.
00:20:03.580 And you see that,
00:20:04.640 for example,
00:20:05.000 when you had
00:20:05.480 the three Popes
00:20:06.140 years ago,
00:20:07.280 they had a council,
00:20:09.020 and the council
00:20:09.920 is not above the Pope
00:20:10.860 according to Catholic theology,
00:20:11.860 yet the council
00:20:13.260 told the Popes,
00:20:14.440 y'all got to resign,
00:20:15.680 we're going to create
00:20:16.220 a new one.
00:20:17.360 And they did.
00:20:18.780 And one of them
00:20:19.580 refused to,
00:20:20.440 but the actual Pope did,
00:20:22.700 and so they did
00:20:23.360 elect a new Pope.
00:20:24.200 And that Pope
00:20:24.680 then immediately said,
00:20:25.400 by the way,
00:20:25.840 the Popes are above councils,
00:20:27.220 because he knew
00:20:28.060 that's a dangerous precedence
00:20:29.380 if we make that a law.
00:20:31.060 But what happened
00:20:31.960 was the reason
00:20:32.520 that was now,
00:20:33.460 and you look at
00:20:34.100 the church list of Popes,
00:20:36.160 he is a legitimate Pope,
00:20:37.960 even though the council
00:20:38.740 kind of picked him
00:20:39.680 above another Pope.
00:20:40.620 It's because
00:20:41.700 it was basically
00:20:42.720 the church said,
00:20:43.400 okay,
00:20:44.180 we got a lot
00:20:44.900 going wrong here,
00:20:45.840 this is what we're going to do,
00:20:46.940 and everybody accepted it,
00:20:48.180 and we just moved forward.
00:20:49.240 And that doesn't work
00:20:50.460 for our Western
00:20:51.160 kind of legalistic minds.
00:20:52.480 We want to have,
00:20:53.600 oh, in canon law,
00:20:54.180 you do this,
00:20:54.600 follow this,
00:20:55.040 in that direction,
00:20:55.760 that's always the way
00:20:56.360 it's going to go.
00:20:57.640 That's not the way
00:20:58.280 it's gone in church history.
00:20:59.220 We've had emperors
00:21:00.040 deposed Popes before,
00:21:01.340 so I think ultimately
00:21:02.540 the church is going to have
00:21:04.440 to grapple with two issues.
00:21:06.100 One is the specific issue
00:21:07.720 of Francis
00:21:08.220 and everything he's written.
00:21:09.600 One day,
00:21:10.400 you may have a council,
00:21:11.480 you may have a Pope
00:21:12.080 who just says,
00:21:13.060 we're going to erase that
00:21:15.540 from the church.
00:21:18.260 Almost you have to.
00:21:21.720 That's not a,
00:21:23.000 I don't think that's a,
00:21:24.620 that's just a possibility.
00:21:25.960 I think that's a necessity
00:21:26.980 because they,
00:21:28.500 at least in four documents,
00:21:29.960 you have viable heresies
00:21:31.940 that are,
00:21:33.360 they look formal
00:21:34.560 to a non-expert,
00:21:35.880 but it's,
00:21:37.420 they're wrong in spades,
00:21:40.540 more wrong
00:21:41.360 than many of the things
00:21:42.780 that were questions
00:21:44.020 before in the past
00:21:44.900 for other Popes
00:21:45.820 that made errors.
00:21:46.600 So, yeah,
00:21:47.600 I think it has to come.
00:21:49.360 Would you agree with that?
00:21:51.400 Yes.
00:21:52.100 It just may not come
00:21:52.840 in our lifetime.
00:21:53.600 Yeah.
00:21:53.920 I think it has to come.
00:21:55.240 And I also think
00:21:55.880 the church then has to grapple
00:21:57.040 with the more general issue of
00:21:58.380 what do we do
00:21:59.680 in the case of a Pope
00:22:00.980 who is actively trying
00:22:02.500 to undermine the faith?
00:22:04.080 What is the procedure
00:22:05.100 in which that Pope is,
00:22:07.980 is it going to,
00:22:08.520 maybe it just is going to be,
00:22:09.680 we wait for a future Pope.
00:22:10.920 Because people don't like
00:22:12.320 that answer.
00:22:13.440 And I understand
00:22:13.940 why they don't like it.
00:22:15.040 But you look in
00:22:16.080 his church history,
00:22:17.640 that happens sometimes
00:22:18.600 where there are periods
00:22:19.560 in which there's just
00:22:20.540 massive confusion.
00:22:22.280 I mean,
00:22:22.800 Arian crisis,
00:22:23.540 obviously we have most bishops
00:22:25.000 preaching Arianism.
00:22:27.160 You have the Great Western Schism
00:22:28.960 where you have multiple Popes,
00:22:30.300 people claiming,
00:22:30.980 men claiming to be Pope.
00:22:32.560 And we see it in history,
00:22:34.340 like, okay,
00:22:34.740 the Great Western Schism,
00:22:36.000 it was 80 years,
00:22:36.780 something like that,
00:22:37.340 I can't remember.
00:22:38.280 And you have these three Popes.
00:22:39.420 But remember,
00:22:39.880 what if you're just a Catholic
00:22:40.840 who's born the year
00:22:42.420 after the first two people
00:22:44.320 are saying they're Pope
00:22:44.960 and you die five years
00:22:46.940 before they resolve it?
00:22:47.980 Your entire life
00:22:49.260 as a Catholic
00:22:49.940 is under multiple men
00:22:52.520 saying they're Pope.
00:22:54.440 And I can understand
00:22:56.100 that person would be like,
00:22:57.020 like, God,
00:22:57.540 you need to resolve this.
00:22:59.240 And he did eventually resolve it,
00:23:00.800 but it wasn't in the time frame
00:23:02.200 that maybe that guy wanted to.
00:23:03.280 And I feel like
00:23:03.680 we are the same way.
00:23:05.200 We have to live under this.
00:23:06.820 Of course,
00:23:07.160 the next Pope
00:23:07.680 might be the same
00:23:08.860 as this one
00:23:09.600 as far as all this goes.
00:23:10.760 He might be much better,
00:23:11.540 might be much worse.
00:23:12.180 We don't know.
00:23:13.080 We might just have to live under it.
00:23:14.420 And so ultimately,
00:23:15.400 our duty
00:23:16.020 is to obviously
00:23:17.720 grow in holiness,
00:23:18.660 to be saints,
00:23:19.780 and to when
00:23:21.340 even high church officials
00:23:23.480 say something
00:23:25.020 that's erroneous,
00:23:26.380 we have to speak out
00:23:27.500 and say,
00:23:28.000 no,
00:23:28.220 this is not consistent
00:23:29.180 with what the church
00:23:29.840 has always taught.
00:23:31.200 How much of a loop
00:23:32.840 would it throw you for
00:23:34.120 if the next Pope
00:23:36.220 said,
00:23:37.560 yeah,
00:23:39.220 he wasn't Pope
00:23:41.000 and we should have
00:23:41.500 just paid attention
00:23:42.220 in the first place.
00:23:42.920 John Paul II
00:23:43.580 wrote a constitution
00:23:44.500 on the election of a Pope.
00:23:46.480 It was clearly
00:23:47.480 by the evidence
00:23:48.400 that we now have
00:23:49.300 that was admitted to
00:23:50.280 violated.
00:23:52.560 And therefore,
00:23:53.760 paragraph,
00:23:54.320 I think it's 76
00:23:55.060 in the document
00:23:58.280 in the Constitution
00:23:58.960 John Paul II
00:23:59.540 wrote in 1992
00:24:00.440 applies,
00:24:01.580 he wasn't the Pope.
00:24:03.220 That would have
00:24:03.700 all sorts of ramifications
00:24:04.720 though,
00:24:05.080 wouldn't it?
00:24:05.940 It would.
00:24:06.700 I mean,
00:24:06.920 it would be pretty amazing.
00:24:09.000 To be honest,
00:24:09.780 I would be happy
00:24:10.680 because it would give clarity
00:24:11.960 where there's confusion.
00:24:13.400 At the same time,
00:24:14.720 I wouldn't regret
00:24:15.720 the fact that I have been
00:24:17.360 very adamant publicly
00:24:18.580 that we have to accept
00:24:19.960 Jorge Bergoglio
00:24:21.060 as our Pope.
00:24:21.880 Because ultimately,
00:24:22.820 here's the thing.
00:24:24.000 When I go to my maker,
00:24:26.500 I have to answer
00:24:27.480 for what I knew
00:24:29.020 and what I did.
00:24:30.220 And it is legitimate
00:24:31.780 for a Catholic to say,
00:24:34.100 the entire church
00:24:35.560 that you founded,
00:24:36.760 Lord,
00:24:37.940 and all the successors
00:24:39.240 of your apostles
00:24:40.520 said,
00:24:41.660 this man is the Pope
00:24:42.300 and I went along
00:24:42.900 with them.
00:24:43.860 I cannot imagine,
00:24:45.540 but I didn't go along
00:24:46.460 with his heirs,
00:24:47.520 but I went along
00:24:48.420 with the fact
00:24:49.300 that he is the Pope.
00:24:50.480 And I feel like that
00:24:52.700 in my judgment,
00:24:53.780 I will be in good shape.
00:24:55.520 However,
00:24:55.840 if the opposite were true,
00:24:57.620 if he really is the Pope
00:24:58.460 and I was out there
00:24:59.780 speaking very publicly
00:25:00.880 and saying,
00:25:01.440 no,
00:25:01.580 he's not the Pope
00:25:02.200 and leading people
00:25:03.400 maybe not to go to Mass
00:25:04.660 because the Mass
00:25:05.440 is under the Pope
00:25:07.140 and stuff like that,
00:25:09.020 I think my judgment
00:25:10.400 could be very severe.
00:25:11.740 And so it's some
00:25:12.460 of a Pascal's wager,
00:25:13.500 I guess.
00:25:14.020 But ultimately,
00:25:14.800 I feel like this is
00:25:15.880 the path Catholics
00:25:16.980 should take,
00:25:17.540 lay Catholics,
00:25:18.240 because,
00:25:18.840 I mean,
00:25:19.040 if I was a bishop,
00:25:20.480 it might be
00:25:21.920 a whole different thing.
00:25:22.620 Then I think
00:25:23.000 I would spend
00:25:23.320 a lot more time
00:25:24.380 looking to,
00:25:25.960 is there something
00:25:26.460 I should do
00:25:27.080 to start bringing
00:25:27.860 bishops together
00:25:28.580 to talk about this?
00:25:29.820 I'm not a bishop.
00:25:30.700 I'm just a lay person.
00:25:32.360 And so my duty
00:25:33.280 is to live
00:25:35.020 the Catholic faith
00:25:35.580 and proclaim it
00:25:36.540 as it is,
00:25:37.400 even when it means
00:25:38.780 correcting errors
00:25:39.860 that come out
00:25:40.500 of the Vatican.
00:25:42.140 Absolutely beautiful.
00:25:43.120 Eric Sammons,
00:25:43.780 thank you so much
00:25:44.500 for joining us.
00:25:44.980 God bless you.
00:25:45.600 God bless you.
00:25:46.280 Thank you.
00:25:46.820 Thank you.
00:25:47.860 And God bless all of you.
00:25:49.640 And we'll see you next time.
00:25:58.440 Hi, everyone.
00:25:59.220 This is John Henry Weston.
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