In this episode of the John Hunter Weston Show, I talk with YouTuber Kennedy Hall about the new Pope, Leo XIII, and what we can expect from him as he begins his tenure as Pope. Kennedy is a proud dad of 7 children and goes to the Society for St. Pius X, or SSPX, which is a part of the Traditional world known as the "Trad world." He is also a writer, podcaster, and host of the popular "Mere Tradition" YouTube channel.
00:00:00.000Let's hope for a Pope who will do his best to give tradition its rights.
00:00:07.240Well, my friends, and welcome to this episode of the John Hunter Weston Show, where I've got for you a guest who I got to know when he worked with us here at LifeSite News.
00:00:16.480His name is Kennedy Hall. He is a YouTuber who runs a great YouTube channel called Mere Tradition.
00:00:24.680He is the proud dad of seven children. One is going to be born. I just learned. Congratulations.
00:00:33.620He goes to the Mass of the Society for St. Pius X, SSPX, as they're commonly called.
00:00:40.040And some interesting things going on with regard to that, because as some of you may know,
00:00:45.880Pope Benedict tried really his heart out to try and reconcile the church with the SSPX more formally.
00:00:55.380It's sort of in a, they call it irregular or something.
00:00:58.100But with Francis, that became sort of suspended in a way.
00:01:01.820But there was more freedom given, nonetheless, the SSPX were given confessions and marriages to do without any restriction.
00:01:11.220And then that never ended. And now comes Pope Leo. And I know that the SSPX is wanting to ordain bishops.
00:01:18.460So a lot of questions with this new pontificate.
00:01:22.480What's going on in trad world, at least a part of the trad world known as the SSPX?
00:01:36.140Kennedy, first of all, I wanted to get your reactions to Pope Leo coming out on the balcony.
00:01:41.660I'm sure you watched it very carefully. Tell us your thoughts.
00:01:45.420You know, I, like many, had no idea who Cardinal Prevost was.
00:01:51.200So I didn't have an immediate reaction to him, either good or bad, because I didn't know what to expect.
00:01:56.920And I must also say that going into the election, going into the conclave, you know, I wrote a book on modernism recently that was published.
00:02:09.320And, you know, I don't want to sound dour or whatever, but I wasn't expecting like a traditional Catholic Pope to come out no matter what.
00:02:18.120Obviously, there are certain cardinals who would do a much better job, obviously, at Cardinal Burke or Cardinal Seurat or, you know, Cardinal Mueller.
00:02:26.280These men are clearly much more orthodox than many of them.
00:02:30.940Nonetheless, there really is this allegiance, this really strong attachment to Vatican II.
00:02:37.500And, you know, all of them have a version of, well, we just have to do it better or the new mass is great, but we just have to do it better.
00:02:43.300So I knew that none of them were going to be a quote unquote traditionalist.
00:03:07.240I could probably say I wish I knew a little less about him than I heard.
00:03:12.020I was able with the help of Bishop Strickland to come to a more hopeful stance because, you know, when he was head of the bishops, the congregation or dicastery for bishops, Strickland was the target of his removal.
00:03:29.420And so if Bishop Strickland could accept him as Holy Father with open arms, so could I.
00:03:34.720And definitely, I think that was very healing, not only for me, I think for a lot of Catholics.
00:03:45.120It's a different thing, I think, for traditionalists than for me, because as you spoke there about, you know, you weren't expecting.
00:03:55.540It's funny because I think for a lot of the Catholics who came at the faith from sort of the pro-life movement, in a way you could say, but who weren't part of the liturgy battles back in the day when it started.
00:04:07.860And they loved the reverent mass, but they didn't know much about the TLM like me.
00:04:15.820Ratzinger, then Benedict, was the same old, same old.
00:04:18.660You expected a pope who was just holy and good and right on all the moral issues.
00:04:24.320Yeah, your bishop might be screwy, but the pope always had your back.
00:04:28.020So the Francis thing was just, what was that?
00:04:32.600In a way, you're hoping for, can we just go back to the Catholic pope?
00:04:37.860But I guess for people who were more into the liturgy battles, the TLM stuff, this is, as you said, it's something that's gone on for a long time.
00:04:50.000The liturgy stuff is definitely part of it, but it's deeper than that.
00:04:53.280When you read, like when I wrote this recent book, I read so much of the young Ratzinger and young JP II and all the theologians that they were a part of the various groups with and stuff.
00:05:07.980And it's astonishing to see how much their work kind of moved further towards the, let's call it conservative side of things.
00:05:16.940Because back in the 50s and 60s, there was a lot of stuff where you would really scratch your head at it.
00:05:22.300Like the average person who just doesn't spend all their time reading old random journals from online, they would look at it and go, there's no way Ratzinger said this.
00:05:30.700There's no way, but that's the way it was.
00:05:33.620And so what you realize is that it was just what's, with men like Cardinal Ratzinger, and I didn't know him, everyone who knew him thought that he was extremely holy man, and I don't doubt that.
00:05:43.100But he was a product of like the modern philosophical milieu.
00:05:47.660And so what you find is that although a man like Pope Francis would come to very different conclusions, when you look at the phraseology, you go, there's a lot of similarities in kind of the method they're arguing things.
00:06:01.460And you see basically this whole atmosphere of modernism is kind of just the official framework for how theology is done in the church today.
00:06:10.640So I think traditionalists who have been plugged in for a long time, it's not that they don't recognize that, hey, a Benedict was way better than Pope Francis.
00:06:33.500So it's more of a realistic thing like, okay, let's hope for a Pope who will do his best to give tradition its rights, so that in this sort of war for the soul of the church, the true Catholic apostolic tradition will have the ability to overtake the counterfeit.
00:06:51.340That's kind of the way I think traditionalists look at it, or at least I do.
00:07:08.860Now we read them feverishly still, but to try and find the errors, which we know that are going to be in there.
00:07:13.920Before, it was read them feverishly to find the gems, to learn the faith, to be able to absorb the truth, to finally we have some clarity on X, Y, Z, or whatever it is around, I know I'm going to be filled with grace by reading this.
00:07:52.020So anyway, so there's the initial impressions.
00:07:55.420I think everybody in the church is kind of waiting.
00:07:57.800But you've got a very interesting thing.
00:08:00.760I know that the SSPX is very near and dear to your heart.
00:08:05.180And on the inside of the SSPX, they're going through some things because, I mean, they had their initial set of bishops and then the ones that were ordained in 88, as it were, and caused the kerfuffle and all of that sort of settled down.
00:08:43.920I tend, and I did write a book on my own that I self-published called SSPX, The Defense.
00:08:48.540But I don't work for the society or anything.
00:08:50.280I just like to make that clear to people because they think I'm, you know, I've been accused of being part of this or that conspiracy.
00:08:55.420And I'm like, no, I'm just, you know, as Taylor says, I'm a dad with a webcam.
00:09:00.100Taylor actually has a really nice camera.
00:09:01.760I'm actually on a webcam, so he can't say that anymore.
00:09:04.180But there is a lot of information that is public that most people don't know about because it's either in a different language or it's in just some conference talk or something.
00:09:11.500The SSPX doesn't, you know, do a ton of like, you know, social media activity and stuff.
00:09:17.800So, but yes, they will need to consecrate bishops.
00:09:24.980The SSPX has grown probably, I mean, four or five times the amount of parishioners, maybe more than it had in 1988, probably more, maybe 10 times.
00:09:35.380There's an estimate that they have around a million faithful.
00:09:38.780They serve around the world today, many of them in North America and Europe, but many of them in places like Africa and Asia.
00:09:45.200They have tons of missionaries that are going into different countries in Asia and whatnot all the time.
00:09:50.200And they have two living bishops left who perform the traditional sacraments that are reserved for bishops.
00:09:58.520So confirmations and then, of course, priestly ordinations and the consecrations of bishops.
00:10:02.840So a little background, when Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Castro Maier, who was not of the SSPX, but he was of Brazil, but he was another holdout for the traditional faith at that time.
00:10:16.340When he went forth with the consecrations, there was a long process of basically trying to have everything to be done in the perfectly legal sense above board.
00:10:27.600And permission was given to the SSPX in principle, although in actuality, there was never an agreement on when they were allowed to go through with it.
00:10:37.380So there was an accord reached between Lefebvre and Ratzinger.
00:10:39.660Anyway, so that was what happened then.
00:10:44.880And Don Pagliarani, who was the current superior general of the society, said, I think in 21 or 22, that, yes, they're obviously thinking about it.
00:10:53.220And this was before Bishop Tissier, God rest his soul, had passed away.
00:10:56.920And he said that they would do the same thing.
00:10:59.760So there's going to be no middle of the night consecration or, you know, secret thing, whatever.
00:11:04.660It will be something where they will present themselves to the Holy Father and they will say, this is our intention and we would like your blessing to do so.
00:11:12.640And if you'd like us to blah, blah, blah, do this and that, we will do this.
00:11:15.400And then the only way they would go through with it without permission is if they've exhausted all the options.
00:11:22.100And then it becomes clear that for the preservation of the traditional priesthood, there's no other way, the state of necessity, so to speak.
00:11:29.800And so since they've gone down to two bishops, there have been various general superiors or district superiors, Italy, Germany, and so forth, who have said, yes, this is something we'll see in the near future.
00:11:43.980So this probably means next year, probably not this year because it would usually happen in the summer.
00:11:47.880Although for all I know, they're having conversations right now and have been.
00:11:54.220Personally, I really think that Pope Leo will want to avoid another 1988 for a couple reasons.
00:12:01.700Number one, things are very different than they were in 1988.
00:12:06.060Tradition at the time was like this very niche, seemingly rebellious thing.
00:12:10.340Now it's like the bee's knees and the biggest, you know, pilgrimage in the church is the traditional Catholics walking in France.
00:12:16.960So it's making the mainstream media, for goodness sake.
00:12:19.520And, you know, our mutual friend Taylor Marshall, the biggest English-speaking Catholic podcaster in the world, is talking about how much he loves Lefebvre on his channel and things like that.
00:12:28.520So things are just very, very different than they were then.
00:12:30.880And the 1988 fallout was very confusing because canonically it was a very specious or dubious decision, which canon lawyers had been yelling at each other about for the last 37 years.
00:14:29.740And you know what, it's interesting you mentioned Africa because when you talk to SSPX missionaries in the, you know, third world, so to speak, they have a very different story.
00:14:40.180The SSPX situation is, it's what you want to make of it.
00:14:44.180If you want to make of it a positive situation, you can easily do that with all the information out there.
00:14:49.060If you want to make it of a negative situation, you can try to do that.
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00:16:08.940There's an interesting thing I found out recently, not too recently, but recent enough, that the world of the fraternity, which everybody knows is the Latin Mass world, has very few priests.
00:16:24.540They have about 300, slightly more than 300 priests.
00:16:27.100The other sort of fraternity or institute that has the Latin Mass that everybody knows it for is the Institute of Christ the King, about 150 priests.
00:16:38.480So that's it for the whole wide world?
00:16:41.800Yes, actually, which sounds really weird.
00:16:44.220And then there's the SSPX, which as far as I know...
00:17:31.440Well, I don't want to say rumor, but the strongest suggestion is that there was discord and there was tension on both sides.
00:17:41.680And so within the SSPX, there was a lot of apprehension about the notion of a personal prelature offer, which was basically what the Opus Dei had.
00:17:50.200They sort of still have it, but they don't have a prelate anymore.
00:17:52.580So it's not really sure if it's a prelature in the sense because they don't have a bishop.
00:17:57.260That was something that was apparently on the table.
00:17:59.520On the other hand, the word on the street is that there were a cardinal or two close to Benedict who were very unhappy about an SSPX path forward and pressured him to basically pull the plug.
00:18:15.500What I do know, though, and I can say this for certain because some of these things have been released publicly.
00:18:20.960The thing about the SSPX is a lot of it's in French, and I'm a French speaker and whatever, so I can...
00:18:25.000But most people aren't that are sort of Anglo-North Americans.
00:18:27.360And a part of the conversation between the SSPX and Rome, well, a lot of it was doctrinal.
00:18:37.140So a lot of it is like boring for most people behind the scenes, basically submitting essays back and forth about how to understand particular points of doctrine expressed in the Second Vatican Council.
00:18:49.960And on that, they basically reached loggerheads and couldn't come to some sort of agreement on certain points.
00:19:02.920And those points, largely speaking, have to do with things that maybe we can talk about how Leo will have to deal with this, having to do with things like synodality, things like collegiality, and things like religious liberty, which are all in one...
00:19:18.620If you interpret them in a pre-conciliar way, either errors or heresies.
00:19:23.620If you try to interpret them in a post-conciliar way, you still get into some murky waters if you're trying to keep the traditional Catholic perception.
00:19:33.680So that's something that still has to be figured out.
00:20:51.340So, I think you probably saw the Mass of Ages 3.
00:20:55.380I was at the premiere in Chicago last year or whatever.
00:20:58.040And they had an interesting part of the film where they showed how after Pope Francis had put in Traditionis Custodis, you know, basically sending the traditional Mass back to the restrictions it was under in 1984 under JP2.
00:21:09.660Although, in fairness to JP2, that was an opening up, whereas with Francis it was a restriction.
00:21:13.740But it was the same sort of parameters.
00:21:15.340The bishops themselves were basically surveyed on it.
00:21:18.680And the majority of them either did nothing about it, which was interesting, meaning they didn't implement it.
00:21:24.920Or a small minority were really positive on it, meaning they really wanted to hammer down and beat those trads over the head with a stick.
00:21:32.720Whereas a lot of them were kind of not really that fond of it and found the most liberating way possible to interpret it.
00:21:40.940So, basically, if we're into synodality, if we're into collegiality, meaning we think that the local bishops should have a lot more say, blah, blah, blah, and all these kinds of things.
00:21:49.520If that's really what we mean, and we want to hear the voices of the faithful and blah, blah, blah, then they have an airtight argument to just say, the people have spoken, the bishops of the world have spoken, and the synodality and collegiality, blah, blah, blah, they really want access to this.
00:22:04.740So, in fraternal communion and, you know, whatever of encounter with our brother Christians and whatever, we would like them to have access to this thing that's meaningful to them.
00:22:13.360I really think that's the path forward for it.
00:22:16.640So, we have to be welcoming and accepting even of those sisters and brothers of ours who may be different to ourselves.
00:22:34.160I've always found it funny because I noticed some of the conservative...
00:22:39.820Yeah, we had some conservative bishops really hunt down the traditional mass and restrict it to all get out.
00:22:46.900Not because they really wanted to, but out of, you know, wanting to obey and be proper and right and I don't know what.
00:22:54.480But I did notice some of the more liberal bishops who weren't ideological, like they weren't like Cupich or McElroy, who just...
00:23:03.720They have an ideology that they're following.
00:23:05.520It's just the opposite one of the faith.
00:23:07.460They're going to pursue it like hazy and stomp it out too.
00:23:10.080But I found the liberal bishops who, like, really don't care.
00:23:14.280They're trying to get their diocese going.
00:23:15.860They saw the cash flow coming in from the TLM and were like, yeah, we're not doing that.
00:23:21.720We're going to relegate that to the same, like, place we put it when, you know, some other papal command came down and we did nothing about it because it was on the other side.
00:23:36.000Even in my diocese, which is super liberal, like my diocese, God bless the bishop, you know, during COVID, when they shut down stuff faster than the government even told them to and opened it up slower than the government told them to.
00:23:50.980Like, they were way more, they were, they were more with the virus than Doug Ford and, which is hard to imagine anyone being more happy about COVID than the Ontario government.
00:24:00.980And so even during that time, they put out a letter saying Catholics under no circumstances could go to the SSPX, even if no other sacraments were available.
00:24:10.920That's how much, that's the disdain, which isn't even what the church says about the Orthodox, for goodness sake.
00:24:15.020So it wouldn't even fit, you know, even if you thought they were in schism, that still wouldn't apply, according to the 83 code of canon law.
00:24:22.340So that's the, but even here, he hasn't shut down the TLM because the diocese is failing.
00:24:30.120And the only place where you have more babies, the only place where you have more infants in diapers than elderly parishioners is at the traditional mass.
00:24:39.680And that's a lot of money that they would have to say goodbye to.
00:24:52.900Just on economics alone, it makes sense.
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00:25:28.680Anyway, Kennedy, final thoughts on Pope Leo, the future of the church, and the SSPX.
00:25:34.040My final thoughts are that he will try to find a path forward, which is a path of least resistance.
00:25:41.260So I don't believe that—and who knows what will happen—but I don't believe there will be any sort of official new thing or, you know, all the dioceses have to use them like a parish.
00:25:52.620I think it will be more something like, you know, in keeping with my predecessors who have consistently in fraternal communion, blah, blah, blah, you know, we would like to extend our thanks to the society and give them our blessing to continue with what they do.
00:26:06.640And for their needs, we will allow them permission to have X amount of bishops.
00:26:11.480And we encourage the bishops of the world to work closely with them in a spirit of dialogue or something.
00:26:17.980Like, I really think it will be something like that.
00:26:23.820Well, honestly, J.H., you know, writing that modernism book that I wrote, I could write a dissertation as if I was James Martin right now, and you wouldn't even know the difference.